From ron.silliman  Mon Sep  1 06:22:39 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 06:22:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog: One year old
Message-ID: <000001c37072$fd7fce20$b772ed41@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

Essential Titles:
Charles Olson & Henri Lefebvre

Do We Know Ella Cheese?
A homophonic translation of Rilke

Homophonic translations:
Not all languages are equal

Noble shipwrecks:
Writing poems that can't possibly work -
Lorine Niedecker's "Thomas Jefferson"

Annie Finch on Emily Dickinson -
The context of women poets in the 19th century

JOE // JOE
& the problem of knowledge in reading -
Robert Grenier, John Cage & Jackson Pollock

Philip K. Dick's Solar Lottery -
Building the paranoid narrative machine
(an anecdote about exploding safes) 

The decay of posthumous literary forms
& the importance of book design

Essential titles:
Kathy Acker & Barrett Watten

Essential titles:
Louis Zukofsky & Robert Grenier

Essential titles:
Jack Spicer, Robert Creeley
& Williams' Spring & All

Essential titles:
Williams' The Desert Music
& the Allen anthology

Dirty Pretty Things

A report on The Philly Sound
from CA Conrad

Reading Keats to Sleep  - 
Gregg Biglieri as the 
Baryshnikov of words

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/







From halvard  Mon Sep  1 08:42:06 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:42:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <008d01c37031$4415e5a0$7f12fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEIGHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
{    what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?
{    
{    Finnegan

I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From CobbCoStudioArts  Mon Sep  1 11:30:22 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:30:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <20030901153023.C397E4802@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From anny.ballardini  Mon Sep  1 12:11:10 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:11:10 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEIGHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <003101c370a3$a8ae9620$c4607550@anny>

I think Hal's is the best one, still I have another idea,

I would invite all the ballet dancers in the world and let them draw in the
air my favorite poems,

a

From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


>
> {    I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
> {    what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?
> {
> {    Finnegan
>
> I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.
>
> Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From JforJames  Mon Sep  1 14:08:50 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:08:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hughes' slab
Message-ID: <1e.1833ab3e.2c84e532@aol.com>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/england/devon/3167729.stm 
Poet's memorial riddle solved 

Five years of secrecy over the location of a memorial to the late Poet 
Laureate Ted Hughes have come to an end. 
BBC Spotlight's environment correspondent Simon Hall has spent two years 
searching for the site on Dartmoor in Devon. 

He was helped by a guide, and used clues in Ted Hughes' will and his work. 

And in one of the most remote parts of Dartmoor, near the source of the River 
Taw, he finally found the simple, granite memorial. 


It's a place with an enormous sense of history which would be very important 
to him 
Liz Sigmund, friend of Ted Hughes 

Ted Hughes lived in Devon for almost 40 years until his death in 1998. 
He loved Dartmoor in particular and his will contained a request for his 
ashes to be scattered there. 

He also requested his name be cut in a long slab of granite, between the 
sources of the rivers Teign, Dart, Taw and East Okement as a memorial. 


His friends say it is a fitting location. 

"He was a very private man, it's a very private place," said Liz Sigmund. 

"People aren't going to be able to just easily jump out of the car and look 
at it. 

"It's a place with an enormous sense of history which would be very important 
to him," she said. 

And a final mystery is how the stone got there. 

Ted Hughes' friends say it involved enlisting the help of Prince Charles, who 
owns the area, and a helicopter airlift. 

The Duchy of Cornwall would say only it did not usually give permission for 
memorials, but as Hughes was a special and dear friend of Prince Charles, a 
rare exception was made. 

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/3167729.stm

Published: 2003/08/20 14:54:31 GMT



From JforJames  Mon Sep  1 14:12:17 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:12:17 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <15b.23e4dde6.2c84e601@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/1/03 8:45:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:

> I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
>  {    what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?
>  {    
>  {    Finnegan
>  
>  I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.
>  
Good one...but could we call that "Po-hibition"?
Finnegan



From halvard  Mon Sep  1 14:22:40 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:22:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <15b.23e4dde6.2c84e601@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEIPHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    >  I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.
{    >  
{    Good one...but could we call that "Po-hibition"?
{    Finnegan

Only if we can call two or more poets living together
po-habitation.

Hal              "The only way to do it is to do it."
                              --Merce Cunningham
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From wjbat  Mon Sep  1 14:35:19 2003
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:35:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEIPHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <0A11E7B6-DCAB-11D7-BE7D-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Monday, September 1, 2003, at 02:22 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> Only if we can call two or more poets living together
> po-habitation.
>

Or polie a deux.

Wendy


Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

  
              




From jvcervantes  Mon Sep  1 14:44:32 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 11:44:32 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEIPHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F539390.14236CE3@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> {    >  I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.
> {    >
> {    Good one...but could we call that "Po-hibition"?
> {    Finnegan
> 
> Only if we can call two or more poets living together
> po-habitation.

Just don't become po-habitual.

- Jim



From chris  Mon Sep  1 15:15:43 2003
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:15:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEIPHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <3F539390.14236CE3@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <027d01c370bd$7407bd60$6401a8c0@disted.uaf.edu>

On Monday, September 01, 2003 10:44 AM [GMT+1=CET],
James Cervantes <jvcervantes at earthlink.net> spake thusly:

> Halvard Johnson wrote:
>> 
>> {    >  I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it
>> illegal. {    >
>> {    Good one...but could we call that "Po-hibition"?
>> {    Finnegan
>> 
>> Only if we can call two or more poets living together
>> po-habitation.

More than two would have to be poelyamory

c




From DICK  Mon Sep  1 15:18:13 2003
From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 03 15:18:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gluck's poetry
Message-ID: <200309011916.h81JGFSV021218@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:01:02 -0400 *************
David Graham wrote:


>>My gripe with Gluck has to do with the texture of her language, usually.
>>There are exceptions, of course, but too often I find flat statement without
>>much to please my ear, and abstraction without as much dramatic embodiment
>>as I tend to like.  Likewise, her imagery and figure tend toward the minimal
>>end of the spectrum.  For example:
>>

Mock Orange
On the other hand, what I find very interesting is the precision and
originality of her narrative; the "texture of her language" doesn't
obscure what she is saying; she is at the same time clear and economical


     ....these flowers
lighting the yard.

I hate them.
I hate them as I hate sex,
the man's mouth
sealing my mouth, the man's
paralyzing body--

and the cry that always escapes,
the low, humiliating
premise of union--

not "nice," not so abstract, nor minimal, but pretty fine,
I'd say.  And accessible.

Richard



From kpaul  Mon Sep  1 16:11:03 2003
From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:11:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEIGHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEIGHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20030901151054.N7971@kpaul.spinweb.net>

You got my vote, Hal. ;)

-kpaul

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Halvard Johnson wrote:

>
> {    I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
> {    what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?
> {
> {    Finnegan
>
> I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.
>
> Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From CobbCoStudioArts  Mon Sep  1 16:16:26 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:16:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <20030901201626.5EC42E4C0@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From MIM47  Mon Sep  1 17:45:32 2003
From: MIM47 (MIM47 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:45:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my "big ideas"
Message-ID: <5b.3da39c1d.2c8517fc@aol.com>

When I am Poet Laureate, I will:

1.  Suggest that Congress read a poem at the start of each day's session. 
Senators and Reps could take turns reading in the order in which their respective 
states were admitted to the Union.  (if I wanted to be nasty, I'd require the 
South to do double duty since they left and came back!)

2. Push for all public schools to require memorization and recitation of 
poems for the students, faculty, and administration. 

3.  Have an annual meeting for all state poets laureate, where a lively 
discussion could (and would) ensue on issues related to the writing and reading and 
promotion of poetry as a national treasure.

4.  Develop a scholarship fund for students who wish to study poetry in 
college or graduate school.

5. Travel to each of the 50 states for a reading in that state's capitol.



From halvard  Mon Sep  1 18:04:27 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:04:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my "big ideas"
In-Reply-To: <5b.3da39c1d.2c8517fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEJHHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    1.  Suggest that Congress read a poem at the start of each day's session. 
{    Senators and Reps could take turns reading in the order in which their respective 
{    states were admitted to the Union.  (if I wanted to be nasty, I'd require the 
{    South to do double duty since they left and came back!)

Well, they *tried* to leave. That was a big chunk of what
the War Between the States was all about. 

Hal         "There is no instance of a country having
                benefited from prolonged war."
                              --Sun-tzu, "The Art of War"
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From jvcervantes  Mon Sep  1 18:13:54 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:13:54 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my "big ideas"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEJHHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F53C4A1.E4727900@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> {    1.  Suggest that Congress read a poem at the start of each day's session.
> {    Senators and Reps could take turns reading in the order in which their respective
> {    states were admitted to the Union.  (if I wanted to be nasty, I'd require the
> {    South to do double duty since they left and came back!)
> 
> Well, they *tried* to leave. That was a big chunk of what
> the War Between the States was all about.

That'll be two readings for Texas.  One in Texas, and the other in New Mexico.

- Jim, cheering for the renegades



From jvcervantes  Mon Sep  1 18:22:51 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:22:51 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <f3.2f516c92.2c83efe0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F53C6BA.6BFC73A1@earthlink.net>

If you think of poets as planets, you might be able to use the list as a
kind of astrological field in which to chart your personal forecast.  I
fell in thusly:

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
>
> Joseph Auslander, 1937-1941

born in 1941

> (Auslander's appointment to the Poetry chair had no fixed term)
> Allen Tate, 1943-1944
> Robert Penn Warren, 1944-1945
> Louise Bogan, 1945-1946
> Karl Shapiro, 1946-1947
> Robert Lowell, 1947-1948
> Leonie Adams, 1948-1949
> Elizabeth Bishop, 1949-1950
> Conrad Aiken, 1950-1952
> (First to serve two terms)
> William Carlos Williams
> (Appointed in 1952 but did not serve)
> Randall Jarrell, 1956-1958
> Robert Frost, 1958-1959
> Richard Eberhart, 1959-1961
> Louis Untermeyer, 1961-1963

discovered poetry

> Howard Nemerov, 1963-1964
> Reed Whittemore, 1964-1965
> Stephen Spender, 1965-1966
> James Dickey, 1966-1968
> William Jay Smith, 1968-1970

first poems published in 1969

> William Stafford, 1970-1971

entered University of Washington writing program (no MFA then)

> Josephine Jacobsen, 1971-1973
> Daniel Hoffman, 1973-1974

graduated from Iowa

> Stanley Kunitz, 1974-1976
> Robert Hayden, 1976-1978
> William Meredith, 1978-1980

first book published

> Maxine Kumin,1981-1982

second book published

> Anthony Hecht, 1982-1984
> Robert Fitzgerald, 1984-1985
> (Appointed and served in a health-limited capacity, but did not come to the
> Library of Congress)
> Reed Whittemore, 1984-1985
> (Interim Consultant in Poetry)
> Gwendolyn Brooks, 1985-1986
> Robert Penn Warren, 1986-1987
> (First to be designated Poet Laureate Consultant in Poetry)
> Richard Wilbur, 1987-1988
> Howard Nemerov, 1988-1990
> Mark Strand, 1990-1991
> Joseph Brodsky, 1991-1992
> Mona Van Duyn, 1992-1993
> Rita Dove, 1993-1995
> Robert Hass, 1995-1997
> Robert Pinsky, 1997-2000
> (First to serve three consecutive terms)
> Special Bicentennial Consultants, 1999-2000: Rita Dove, Louise Gl?ck, and
> W.S. Merwin)
> Stanley Kunitz, 2000-2001
> Billy Collins, 2001-2002

floundering

- Jim




From jvcervantes  Mon Sep  1 18:27:45 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:27:45 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <f3.2f516c92.2c83efe0@aol.com> <3F53C6BA.6BFC73A1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F53C7E0.79E04F5@earthlink.net>

Correction:

> > Howard Nemerov, 1988-1990

second book published

> > Mark Strand, 1990-1991

Not a decade earlier.

- Jim



From bobgrumman  Mon Sep  1 22:05:01 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:05:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <f3.2f516c92.2c83efe0@aol.com> <3F53C6BA.6BFC73A1@earthlink.net> <3F53C7E0.79E04F5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004701c370f6$9ea3b360$7e28fea9@j1c1k6>

The most interesting thing about the list to me is that you could reverse
it, and graph the poets on the basis of technical adventurousness and
general aims, and the graph of the original list and the graph of the
reversed list would be near identical.  In fact, the only significant
difference would be that the reversed graph would indicate more of a
movement toward "experimental poetry" since Wm C Wms would be further along
on it.

In spite of my rudely exaggerated small polemic, I do find most of the
laureates to be superior poets.  But except for Williams, which of them ever
took any technical risks?  Lowell, perhaps, to a very slight degree.

Can't leave this till I mention one more thing I'd like a poet laureate to
do: give a speech on this truth: that serious poetry is no more for the man
in the street than serious pure mathematics is, or serious music or
painting.  Like all those things, though, it is worth supporting because of
its influence on lesser simulcra of it, and because it will eventually
affect its expressive language for the better, which will benefit the man in
the street.

--Bob G.





From JforJames  Mon Sep  1 22:21:55 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:21:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa and me
Message-ID: <7a.46d82d25.2c8558c3@aol.com>

This summer I picked up _Always Astonished_, the selected
prose of Fernando Pessoa, translated by Edwin Honig. A collection
of mostly short entries on this & that subject related to poetry,
art, & Pessoa's personal (if not all of the various & sundry
Pessoas') philosophy.

A few choice passages...

"I was a poet animated by philosophy, not a philosopher
with poetic faculties. I loved to admire the beauty of things,
to trace the imperceptible through the minute the poetic
soul of the universe." [Autobiographic Notes, 1. The earliest
literary food]

"Art, fully defined, is the harmonic expression of our 
consciousness of sensations, that is to say, our sensations
must be so expressed that they create an object which
will be a sensation to others. Art is not, as Bacon said,
'man added to Nature'; it is sensation multiplied by
consciousness--multiplied, be it well noted." [On Sensationism,
2. Letter to an English Editor]

"Lucidity should only reach the threshold of the soul. In the
very antechambers of feeling it is forbidden to be explicit"
-&-
"Substitute yourself always. You are not enough for yourself.
Be unpredictable always for yourself. Let yourself happen
before yourself. Let your sensations be purely accidental, 
adventures that happen to you. You must be a universe
without laws in order to be superior." [On Sensationism,
5 To feel is to create]

"A great emotion is too selfish. It takes into itself all the
blood of the spirit, and the congestion leaves the hands too
cold to write. Three sorts of emotions produce great poetry--
strong but quick emotions, seized upon for art as soon as
they have passed, but not before they have passed; strong
and deep emotions in their remembrance a long time after;
and false emotions, that is to say, emotions felt in the 
intellect. Not insincerity, yet a translated sincerity, is the
basis of all art." [Literature and the Artist, 8. The Artist
and Emotion]

"I am always astonished when I finish anything. Astonished
and depressed. My instinct for perfection should inhibit me
until I get started. But I distract myself and do it. What I
achieve is a product in me, not by applying my will but by
giving into it. I begin because I'm not motivated to think; I
conclude because I haven't the nerve to leave off. The book
is my act of cowardice." [Always Astonished: A Journal,
21. Always astonished]

---
if you want more than samples, call
City Lights Books, 800-274-7826

Finnegan



From marcus  Tue Sep  2 09:52:22 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 09:52:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <007b01c37029$d80c9860$6d94c044@MULDER>
Message-ID: <3F546856.28093.8D689F@localhost>

> > I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
> > what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?

Well the trouble with poetry to the American who isn't in its thrall 
is that it all looks non-mainstream; it all looks like a parody of 
free verse:

I am a barn door
creaking ...
creaking.

and the sort of thing that that parodies is impenetrable for most 
people. The very notion that poetry is not verse is alien to most 
people, and they discount what Grumman would call "mainstream" as 
"not poetry at all in the first place". Free verse poets seem to be 
completely opaque to the hostility with which they are viewed by the 
general public; to the conviction by the general public that free 
verse is a fraud and free versists are con-artists.

If you're a free verse writer and you want a wider audience your 
first task as Poet Laureate must be to find a way to persuade the 
general public that you are a poet in the first place and that what 
you write is poetry -- because they just flat don't believe it.

So, if you get to be Poet Laureate and you really want to reach a 
larger audience you first have to address the "Jackson Pollack 
Syndrome", the "my third grader can do that syndrome", the "you're a 
fraud syndrome".

How would you do that?





Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From chris  Tue Sep  2 11:15:59 2003
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 07:15:59 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <3F546856.28093.8D689F@localhost>
Message-ID: <05a201c37165$21565f10$6401a8c0@disted.uaf.edu>

On Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:52 AM [GMT+1=CET],
Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> spake thusly:

> How would you do that?

This is a rather disingenuous question if it comes from one who doesn't
believe it can be done and just wants to further argue that point. Is that
what's going on here?

c




From GrahamD  Tue Sep  2 11:16:48 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:16:48 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A02E@mail.ripon.edu>

So the millions of book buyers who purchase Maya Angelou's free verse (for
one example) do so out of hostility to free verse?  Interesting premise.

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Marcus Bales
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 2, 2003 8:52 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
> 
> > > I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
> > > what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?
> 
> Well the trouble with poetry to the American who isn't in its thrall 
> is that it all looks non-mainstream; it all looks like a parody of 
> free verse:
> 
> I am a barn door
> creaking ...
> creaking.
> 
> and the sort of thing that that parodies is impenetrable for most 
> people. The very notion that poetry is not verse is alien to most 
> people, and they discount what Grumman would call "mainstream" as 
> "not poetry at all in the first place". Free verse poets seem to be 
> completely opaque to the hostility with which they are viewed by the 
> general public; to the conviction by the general public that free 
> verse is a fraud and free versists are con-artists.
> 
> If you're a free verse writer and you want a wider audience your 
> first task as Poet Laureate must be to find a way to persuade the 
> general public that you are a poet in the first place and that what 
> you write is poetry -- because they just flat don't believe it.
> 
> So, if you get to be Poet Laureate and you really want to reach a 
> larger audience you first have to address the "Jackson Pollack 
> Syndrome", the "my third grader can do that syndrome", the "you're a 
> fraud syndrome".
> 
> How would you do that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 



From marcus  Tue Sep  2 11:20:32 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:20:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <05a201c37165$21565f10$6401a8c0@disted.uaf.edu>
Message-ID: <3F547D00.8360.DE2074@localhost>

> On Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:52 AM [GMT+1=CET],
> Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> spake thusly:
> > How would you do that?

On 2 Sep 2003 at 7:15, Chris Lott wrote:
> This is a rather disingenuous question if it comes from one who doesn't
> believe it can be done and just wants to further argue that point. Is that
> what's going on here?

Not in the least; I'm trying to describe the problem that free verse 
poets have with reaching a larger audience. The question is how can 
you overcome the hostility of the larger audience to the very 
assertion that what you do is poetry as you seek a larger audience? 
It's not a matter of convincing ME -- it's a matter of convincing 
THEM.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From marcus  Tue Sep  2 11:21:31 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:21:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A02E@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F547D3B.29847.DF0961@localhost>

On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:16, Graham, David wrote:
> So the millions of book buyers who purchase Maya Angelou's free verse (for
> one example) do so out of hostility to free verse?  Interesting premise.

Maya Angelou's verse is well-marketed by Hallmark. Is that your idea 
a Poet Laureat's "big idea" -- get more poets marketed by Hallmark?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From GrahamD  Tue Sep  2 11:39:04 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:39:04 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A030@mail.ripon.edu>

Nice try, Marcus.  The question of quality is entirely a different argument,
as you well know.  I was questioning your absurd premise that most people
are hostile to free verse.  Simply untrue, so it's not surprising that you
respond with this particular red herring.

 ============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Marcus Bales
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 2, 2003 10:21 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
> 
> On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:16, Graham, David wrote:
> > So the millions of book buyers who purchase Maya Angelou's free verse
> (for
> > one example) do so out of hostility to free verse?  Interesting premise.
> 
> Maya Angelou's verse is well-marketed by Hallmark. Is that your idea 
> a Poet Laureat's "big idea" -- get more poets marketed by Hallmark?
> 
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 



From GrahamD  Tue Sep  2 11:40:40 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:40:40 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Student sentence du jour
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A031@mail.ripon.edu>

"I love books, but I hate reading them."

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From mandolin  Tue Sep  2 11:42:02 2003
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:42:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <5049967.1062517322880.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, September 02, 2003, at 11:21AM, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

>On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:16, Graham, David wrote:
>> So the millions of book buyers who purchase Maya Angelou's free verse (for
>> one example) do so out of hostility to free verse?  Interesting premise.
>
>Maya Angelou's verse is well-marketed by Hallmark. Is that your idea 
>a Poet Laureat's "big idea" -- get more poets marketed by Hallmark?
>
>
Hallmark's doggerel probably did as much as anything else to convince "serious" poets that metrical, rhymed verse was not real poetry. Now that almost everything on their cards is free verse, maybe things will swing the other way. I'm only half kidding.

Michael



From GrahamD  Tue Sep  2 11:55:40 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:55:40 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A032@mail.ripon.edu>

Maya Angelou's not much of a poet, it's true.  (Nor is she as dreadful as
Leonard Nimoy.)  But in case anyone is interested in reality here, her
recent Hallmark work is quite distinct from books like *Phenomenal Woman*.  

For that portion of the reading public that reads poetry, free verse has
been the dominant mode for a very long time.  Whether that's good or bad or
indifferent is a whole 'nother argument.

Angelou's amazing sales are one easy example of popular taste, is all.  If
the book-buying multitudes truly were yearning for more metered verse,
Angelou and McKuen et al. would probably be churning it out.

Within the small pond of literary poetry, the "new formalists" have been a
most welcome development, I think, but they're hardly the whole show, and
there are lots of reasons for that.  

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Michael Snider
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 2, 2003 10:42 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
> 
>  
> On Tuesday, September 02, 2003, at 11:21AM, Marcus Bales
> <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> 
> >On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:16, Graham, David wrote:
> >> So the millions of book buyers who purchase Maya Angelou's free verse
> (for
> >> one example) do so out of hostility to free verse?  Interesting
> premise.
> >
> >Maya Angelou's verse is well-marketed by Hallmark. Is that your idea 
> >a Poet Laureat's "big idea" -- get more poets marketed by Hallmark?
> >
> >
> Hallmark's doggerel probably did as much as anything else to convince
> "serious" poets that metrical, rhymed verse was not real poetry. Now that
> almost everything on their cards is free verse, maybe things will swing
> the other way. I'm only half kidding.
> 
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From JforJames  Tue Sep  2 14:09:01 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:09:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <112.280259c6.2c8636bd@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/2/03 11:26:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:

> So the millions of book buyers who purchase Maya Angelou's free verse (for
>  > one example) do so out of hostility to free verse?  Interesting premise.
>  
>  Maya Angelou's verse is well-marketed by Hallmark. Is that your idea 
>  a Poet Laureat's "big idea" -- get more poets marketed by Hallmark?
>  
Maya Angelou put up solid sales numbers before her association
with Hallmark. But another example would be Billy Collins
Collins is certainly a best seller by poetry's standards.
I don't believe there is widespread antipathy toward free verse.

Certainly a formal poet whose work was dense and difficult 
would not easily win reading converts. 
Finnegan



From JforJames  Tue Sep  2 14:10:43 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:10:43 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Louise=20Gl=FCcks=20latest=20book,=20October.?=
Message-ID: <1e7.f48885c.2c863723@aol.com>

Date:   9/2/03 12:26:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time

Sarabande Books is proud to announce the April 1, 2004 publication of Louise 
Gl?cks latest book, October. Ms. Gl?ck was recently named as the countrys next 
Poet Laureate, succeeding Billy Collins. The chapbook contains a single long 
poem and presents the third installment of Sarabandes increasingly prestigious 
Quarternote Chapbook Series. A first printing of 5000 copies is planned. The 
poem originally appeared in The New Yorker.

Mark Strand said this of October: Identifying with the season of autumn, the 
dark of it, the barren, irreversible future of it, and the beauty of it, which 
is not seen as redemptive, the voice of Louise Gl?ck is starker, more direct, 
more emotionally charged than it has ever been. October is a masterpiece. 
Other books in the series include James Tates Lost River, and Frank Bidarts Music 
Like Dirt, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize.

Louise Gl?ck was born in New York City and raised on Long Island. She is the 
author of nine books of poetry, including The Triumph of Achilles, which won 
the National Book Critics Circle Award, Ararat, which won the Bobbitt National 
Poetry Prize, The Wild Iris, which received the Pulitzer Prize, and Vita Nova, 
which won the first annual New Yorker Magazines Readers Award and the 
Ambassadors Award. Her many honors include the William Carlos Williams Award, a 
Lannan Literary Award, and, for her book of essays, the PEN/Martha Albrand Award 
for Nonfiction. In 2001, she received the Bollingen Prize for Poetry.Louise 
Gl?ck teaches at Williams College and lives in Cambridge.




From ggatza  Tue Sep  2 14:13:50 2003
From: ggatza (Geoffrey Gatza)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:13:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] now available HouseCat Kung Fu
Message-ID: <002501c3717d$f5b6bb70$605e3318@LINKAGE>

SPECIAL INVITAION 

 

HouseCat Kung Fu : Zoo Poems is now available from Cafe Press 

 

Book : 52 pages $10.00



Audio CD : spoken word set ambient trip hop $14.99 

 

Proceeds donated to the Buffalo Zoo 

 

Order your copy today CafePress www.cafepress.com/housecatkungfu 

 

detailed interactive online version \\  www.blazevox.org/zoo 

 

 

 

Official Bio:

 

Geoffrey Gatza is editor and publisher of the online poetry journal BlazeVOX2k3. He is a recent graduate of Daemen College with a degree in accounting and literature. Favorite color is orange, likes chocolate ice cream and is a graduate of the Culinary Institute of America and worked as a chef for 10 years. The former U.S. Marine now collaborates with 2 cats in Buffalo, NY.  

 

Recent art work appears in Fiera Lingue (Italy), Side Reality, Conundrum, 88, Slope, and Exquisite Corpse. His work seeks to unify the ideals and disappointments of Avant Pop. He is the author of Avatar, an epic poem of Superman through the 20th century; Secret Origins (Charles LaSalle Publishing, 2003) John 9:25 (CD-ROM) His digital art has been displayed internationally and was selected as one of the top 50 artists in the electronic literature organization's State of the Art 2002 exhibit. 

 

 

 

Unofficial Bio: 

 

A prodigy who obtained his Literature degree while still in his teens, Geoffrey Gatza was a gifted poet, whose inability to work within the system led him outside of established literary circles. As the "Midnight Poet," Gatza used his great wealth, talent and formidable network of contacts to provide Avant Garde poetry for a wide range of readers for whom orthodox poetry had failed.

 

While investigating the influx of a new and dangerous bio-mimetic languages, Gatza was infected with a mutagenic virus which interacted randomly with other chemicals in his bloodstream. As a result Gatza lost his vision except while using special goggles of his own creation.

 

It has been speculated the energy Gatza received from his father was the catalyst for this insanity but this is not entirely true. Something else has been infecting his mind ... something very powerful. Gatza has dedicated himself to protecting the downtrodden of his city from a continuing series of deadly schemes by the insidious Iowa writers.

 

 

BlazeVOX2k3: an online journal of voice www.blazevox.org    

Author Site: www.blazevox.org/gatza 

email : ggatza at daemen.edu
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From chris  Tue Sep  2 15:25:12 2003
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:25:12 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <3F547D00.8360.DE2074@localhost>
Message-ID: <005901c37187$eef56890$5743e589@TECH>

On Tuesday, September 02, 2003 7:20 AM, Marcus Bales
<marcus at designerglass.com> spake thusly:

> Not in the least; I'm trying to describe the problem that free verse
> poets have with reaching a larger audience. The question is how can
> you overcome the hostility of the larger audience to the very
> assertion that what you do is poetry as you seek a larger audience?
> It's not a matter of convincing ME -- it's a matter of convincing
> THEM.

That's good to know. But your arguments have always struck me as an
indication that you see yourself as one of THEM in this matter.

c




From mandolin  Tue Sep  2 15:43:38 2003
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:43:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
Message-ID: <3324925.1062531818066.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, September 02, 2003, at 11:55AM, Graham, David <GrahamD at ripon.edu> wrote:

>Maya Angelou's not much of a poet, it's true.  (Nor is she as dreadful as
>Leonard Nimoy.)  But in case anyone is interested in reality here, her
>recent Hallmark work is quite distinct from books like *Phenomenal Woman*.  
>
>For that portion of the reading public that reads poetry, free verse has
>been the dominant mode for a very long time.  Whether that's good or bad or
>indifferent is a whole 'nother argument.
>
>Angelou's amazing sales are one easy example of popular taste, is all.  If
>the book-buying multitudes truly were yearning for more metered verse,
>Angelou and McKuen et al. would probably be churning it out.
>
>Within the small pond of literary poetry, the "new formalists" have been a
>most welcome development, I think, but they're hardly the whole show, and
>there are lots of reasons for that.  
>

David, you're certainly right that the new formalists aren't the whole show, but, more importantly, you're right about the small pond.  Free verse does dominate sales among the new poetry buying public, but there are a lot of people who love poems but who don't buy new poetry. For my sins I taught Freshman Comp and Creative Writing for seven years, but I've also spent years as a toolmaker, framing carpenter, roofer, software engineer, landscaper (I dug holes), and dishwasher--well, only six months at that last job. The people I meet in those contexts are far more likely than my poetry students to have memorized poems and to carry them in their purses and wallets, and the poetry they read is almost always metrical, rhymed verse.

Michael



From marcus  Tue Sep  2 16:58:31 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:58:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A030@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F54CC37.29597.2139E30@localhost>

On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:39, Graham, David wrote:
> Nice try, Marcus.  The question of quality is entirely a different argument,
> as you well know.  I was questioning your absurd premise that most people
> are hostile to free verse.  Simply untrue, so it's not surprising that you
> respond with this particular red herring.<<

No, David, he said, patiently, my initial comment was that most 
people are hostile to free verse and my subsequent comments repeated 
that. Your notion that Maya Angelou's Hallmark sales are evidence 
that most people are not hostile to free verse is the red herring, 
sir. Maya Angelou is as irrelevant to the poetry scene as Rod McKuen -
- their sales are simply not indicative that the general public is 
enthusiastic about free verse.

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From marcus  Tue Sep  2 17:01:25 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:01:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A032@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F54CCE5.11274.2164600@localhost>

On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:55, Graham, David wrote:
> Maya Angelou's not much of a poet, it's true....
> Within the small pond of literary poetry, the "new formalists" have been a
> most welcome development ...

Hoist by your own petard, David: you admit that the literary poetry 
pond is small and that Angelou is not much of a poet. That pretty 
much sums up my argument that most people in the US think free verse 
is not poetry at all and destroys your argument that Angelou's sales 
are evidence that most people in the US think free verse is poetry 
after all.  

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From tadrichards  Tue Sep  2 17:19:09 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:19:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Student sentence du jour
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A031@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <006701c37197$db2b6340$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Reminds me of an old favorite:

"Sure I have ideals, but I don't let them interfere with my daily life."

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
To: "'New-Poetry'" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:40 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Student sentence du jour


> "I love books, but I hate reading them."
> 
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>      Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>      My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From marcus  Tue Sep  2 17:13:26 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:13:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <112.280259c6.2c8636bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F54CFB6.32381.2214732@localhost>

> Maya Angelou put up solid sales numbers before her association
> with Hallmark. But another example would be Billy Collins
> Collins is certainly a best seller by poetry's standards.
> I don't believe there is widespread antipathy toward free verse.

You really have to get out more and talk to people who are not 
involved in the poetry biz. 

When I say "the general public" I don't mean the couple thousand 
people around the country who write poems; I mean the general public, 
the tens of millions of adults who can read.

So, I assert, tens of millions of adults in the US feel a deep and 
abiding dislike of free verse, and will gladly tell you that they 
don't think it's really poetry at all: it's just greeting-card stuff 
at one end and incomprehensible jabber at the other, and most of the 
stuff in between may be more or less comprehensible but isn't worth 
the time or trouble to read.

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From marcus  Tue Sep  2 17:21:47 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:21:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <005901c37187$eef56890$5743e589@TECH>
Message-ID: <3F54D1AB.32259.228EA7B@localhost>

> > Not in the least; I'm trying to describe the problem that free verse
> > poets have with reaching a larger audience. The question is how can
> > you overcome the hostility of the larger audience to the very
> > assertion that what you do is poetry as you seek a larger audience?
> > It's not a matter of convincing ME -- it's a matter of convincing
> > THEM.
 
> That's good to know. But your arguments have always struck me as an
> indication that you see yourself as one of THEM in this matter.

I am one of THEM in this matter; but I'm only one of millions of THEM 
and convincing me isn't going to do you any good, if you are the Poet 
Laureate who wants to bring free verse to the masses. I have no 
influence with the masses; no more than you do now or than you'll 
have as Poet Laureate.  But if you want to bring free verse to the 
masses, I'm pointing out, you'll have to convince them first that it 
is poetry in the first place. Right now they don't believe it. And if 
you can't persuade them of it then you are simply going to fail to 
bring poetry to the masses in one year's work as Poet Laureate.

What the pobiz needs is someone like Billy Collins to be Poet 
Laureate for a couple three decades, and have him dedicate himself to 
bringing poetry to Kindergartners and elementary school students, and 
their teachers. You'll need a slew of poets willing to write 
children's poetry that grades into young adult poetry that grades 
into adult poetry. And even then tens of millions of people will not 
read it, will not buy it, will still prefer the television to the 
book.

Are you people really all so insular as you seem in this regard? Do 
you never talk to people who are not enthralled with the pobiz, who 
have never heard even of Billy Collins, much less of you and your 
friends?



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From DICK  Tue Sep  2 17:50:38 2003
From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 03 17:50:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <200309022148.h82LmfQ1229162@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:15:06 -0400 **************
It's got to be a slow news day if Marcus has to talk about
whether free verse is poetry or not - OK, save your fingers,
Marcus, I know you're saying that folks who don't read poetry
think free verse isn't poetry.  A __very__ slow news day.

I do agree that it would be a good thing if Billy Collins
were poet laureate __in perpetuo__ - "good for poetry" and
good for the country, but I'm not so sure good for Billy
Collins.

Richard



From JforJames  Tue Sep  2 17:49:09 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:49:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
Message-ID: <4c.21943a07.2c866a55@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/2/03 3:44:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mandolin at mac.com 
writes:

> The people I meet in those contexts are far more likely than my poetry 
> students to have memorized poems and to carry them in their purses and 
> wallets, and the poetry they read is almost always metrical, rhymed verse.

Michael, I'm not trying to answer for David but I wanted to make a comment
or two about this: Are we talking about "developing a larger audience" for 
poetry
or "best-loved" poems? The audience for poetry, even when free verse
was at its height of fashion, always had access to contemporary poets
writing formal poetry. During the ascendancy of free verse, it was more a 
matter of the formal poets, for a time, being critically eclipsed, wasn't it? 
If the free market was working, provided people had the knowledge of
and interest in formal poets/poetry, they could have bought those books
If there was more public demand for formal verse, or outright antipathy 
toward free verse, then wouldn't Wilbur/Hecht/Van Duyn/etc., have outsold 
Merwin/Levine/DiPrima?  I think sales records would show the latter gang
probably sold only marginally better than the former crew. No great hunger 
exists at large for contemporary poetry, be it formal or free verse.

It seems like this discussion is tilting once again to "Can Poetry Matter?"
And back again to the canard that if more poets were writing poems like 
Kipling's "If" or Frost's "The Road Not Taken," then a great mass
audience of under-served readers would swell the sales of contemporary poetry.
A lot of people carry around copies of "The Desiderata", too. Or prayers to 
patron saints and excerpts from the M. L. King's "I Have A Dream" speech.  
I don't think it proves too much that many people have favorite poems and 
most of  those favorite poems are in rime and meter. It doesn't mean they
are part of a vast untapped audience (potential consumers) for contemporary 
formal poetry.
Finnegan



From chris  Tue Sep  2 18:03:27 2003
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:03:27 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <3F54D1AB.32259.228EA7B@localhost>
Message-ID: <004901c3719e$0ac6ad70$5743e589@TECH>

On Tuesday, September 02, 2003 1:21 PM, Marcus Bales
<marcus at designerglass.com> spake thusly:

>>> Not in the least; I'm trying to describe the problem that free verse
>>> poets have with reaching a larger audience. The question is how can
>>> you overcome the hostility of the larger audience to the very
>>> assertion that what you do is poetry as you seek a larger audience?
>>> It's not a matter of convincing ME -- it's a matter of convincing
>>> THEM.
>
>> That's good to know. But your arguments have always struck me as an
>> indication that you see yourself as one of THEM in this matter.
>
> I am one of THEM in this matter; but I'm only one of millions of THEM

Sure. But we're not talking to those millions, we are talking to you. And I
was curious if you were one of those who is convinced that there is no such
thing as free verse poetry (sorry if it was repetitious for you-- I don't
scrutinize every post of yours here or elsewhere). Your use of the term
"them" might or might not have included you.

> Are you people really all so insular as you seem in this regard? Do
> you never talk to people who are not enthralled with the pobiz, who
> have never heard even of Billy Collins, much less of you and your
> friends?

I don't really see what the point of your diatribe is. Given the set of all
people who can read, I don't think there is any question that the vast
majority won't be reached. I question this vociferous hatred you see lurking
around every corner. I suspect this is your own resentment boiling to the
surface. Most of the people I know who don't read poetry simply don't care
about it, and most fall into that much larger set of people who don't reach
much at all. I'm not sure of the profundity in your reasoning, as it seems
to boil down for the greatest part of the population to "those who don't
read poetry aren't in love with free verse."

At any rate, of all those people who don't read poetry, which is most people
I know, most of them simply don't care about it any more than they care
about the latest piece of literary fiction or anything else. OF the smaller
set who read *somthing*, they just don't care about anything outside of
mystery or romance or military thriller. Getting even smaller, I do know
some people who like poetry, but only of the formal/nursery rhyme/hallmark
variety. They don't claim any hatred of free verse, though. They simply
don't care or don't see why anyone wants to read it. This is a very
different thing from the active dislike and resentment you postulate. I
don't care for romance novels, but I don't hate them. They aren't even on my
radar.

To me, the real issue really has little to do with convincing anyone that
free verse is poetry. That's Marcus' ideology and longstanding personal
conviction coloring his discussion. There are plenty of rhyming poets out
there, and almost none of them sell either. Those poets who do sell, rhyming
or not, are benefitted by many forces outside of the strength of their work,
whether we are talking about Angelou or Collins.

Most people just don't read, and when they do they read either out of
necessity, nonfiction that is topically interesting, or genre fiction. It
has nothing to do with a disillusionment about free and formal verse. They
don't give a rat's ass about ANY of it. The solution to this, for some, is a
longer term program of education. Too many other media have eclipsed the
written word in general to make quibbling over the crumbs that are left over
of much use.

Most people here, I would bet, know far more people who are not interested
in poetry than people who are. That is certainly true for me-- poetry
readers are a pretty small group as you well know.

c




From GrahamD  Tue Sep  2 18:14:16 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:14:16 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A038@mail.ripon.edu>

	>>>>David, you're certainly right that the new formalists aren't the
whole show, but, more importantly, you're right about the small pond.  Free
verse does dominate sales among the new poetry buying public, but there are
a lot of people who love poems but who don't buy new poetry. For my sins I
taught Freshman Comp and Creative Writing for seven years, but I've also
spent years as a toolmaker, framing carpenter, roofer, software engineer,
landscaper (I dug holes), and dishwasher--well, only six months at that last
job. The people I meet in those contexts are far more likely than my poetry
students to have memorized poems and to carry them in their purses and
wallets, and the poetry they read is almost always metrical, rhymed verse.

> Michael
> 
> 
Interesting, Michael.  Here's where I'm coming from.  As it happens, I've
seen a fair amount of "amateur" verse in my time, in places like high
schools, slams and open-mike performances, poetry therapy, minor-league
poetry contests, my students' journals, the vast seas of the internet, and
so forth.  I am not just talking about subscribers to *American Poetry
Review*, understand.  

And guess what?  Free verse seems pretty damn popular out there.   I don't
deny that people might carry rhymed and metered stuff in their wallets for
inspirational purposes, but that's a different line of argument, I'd say.
The majority of Americans probably don't read *anything* we could call
literary, whether Angelou or Grisham or Galway Kinnell.  As a student of
mine wrote yesterday in his self-introduction, he doesn't read anything
voluntarily except hunting magazines.  

But among real *readers* both amateur and pro, well, I just don't see this
supposed antipathy to free verse.  Billy Colllins does not appeal merely to
a PoBiz audience--and there's quite a bit of hostility to him in the
academic world, actually, while non-mavens like my sister-in-law often love
his stuff.  But just do a Google search under "poetry" and try to avoid the
tide of free verse, for heaven's sake.  I sometimes think every high
schooler in the English speaking world is writing free verse and posting it
online. . . .  

I think others outside the fabled ivory tower will bear out my sense of
things.  It's simply not true, in my experience,  that free verse per se
isn't popular among what you might call the "amateur"  reading public.  Nor
is it, obviously, among the pros.  If  Marcus wants to talk about the
*non-reading* masses, those who read nothing but hunting mags, well, that's
another argument, and once we begin speculating about what non-readers would
read if they did read, then we're really down the rabbit hole.




============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================







From bobgrumman  Tue Sep  2 18:16:35 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:16:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
References: <3F54CCE5.11274.2164600@localhost>
Message-ID: <013801c3719f$e085a6e0$0090fea9@j1c1k6>

> On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:55, Graham, David wrote:
> > Maya Angelou's not much of a poet, it's true....
> > Within the small pond of literary poetry, the "new formalists" have been
a
> > most welcome development ...
>
> Hoist by your own petard, David: you admit that the literary poetry
> pond is small and that Angelou is not much of a poet. That pretty
> much sums up my argument that most people in the US think free verse
> is not poetry at all and destroys your argument that Angelou's sales
> are evidence that most people in the US think free verse is poetry
> after all.
>
> Marcus Bales

My impression is that most Americans think poetry is anything that expresses
a Deep Feeling, and is called a poem.  Our local poetry readings consist of
doggerel and heartfelt free verse in equal quantities.  I think very few
people under sixty think poems have to rhyme.  They DO think you have to be
able to understand them immediately regardless of how little background you
have in poetry.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Tue Sep  2 18:31:53 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:31:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate
References: <200309022148.h82LmfQ1229162@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <01bf01c371a2$02c34c60$0090fea9@j1c1k6>

> I do agree that it would be a good thing if Billy Collins
> were poet laureate __in perpetuo__

To all intents, he HAS been, and will be.  To repeat my observation of
yesterday, so far ignored as far as I can tell.

--Bob G.




From marcus  Tue Sep  2 18:24:32 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:24:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <004901c3719e$0ac6ad70$5743e589@TECH>
Message-ID: <3F54E060.2933.2625EFC@localhost>

> ... But we're not talking to those millions, we are talking to you. <<

Sure, but we're talking ABOUT those millions, or at least some 
portion of them, if we're talking about bringing poetry to a wider 
audience: I don't make up any part of any potential "wider audience" 
because I'm already part of the smaller audience, you see.

> I don't really see what the point of your diatribe is. Given the set of all
> people who can read, I don't think there is any question that the vast
> majority won't be reached.<<

Well, the question with which we began was what "big idea" would you, 
as poet laureate, bring to the table, and I replied that in my view 
there was a preliminary hurdle: that the vast majority of readers 
don't care because they view free verse as non-poetry to begin with --
 so any poet laureate's first job, if he or she wants to achieve a 
"big idea" (and here I am perhaps erroneously assuming from tone and 
context that what is meant by "big idea" is one that will push poetry 
more into the general public's consciousness), is to persuade that 
same vast majority to which you refer that free verse is poetry.

> I question this vociferous hatred you see lurking
> around every corner. I suspect this is your own resentment boiling to the
> surface.<<

I don't have the resentment you seem to think you detect. I am 
pointing out a fundamental problem for any free versist poet laureate 
who wants to push poetry out more into the public spotlight. Of 
course I don't think that any of them can do it -- the public is 
right to suspect in general that most free versists are con artists 
not real artists -- but that's okay; most meter-and-rhymers are con 
artists and not real artists, too.

The public is right to suspect that what is well-said is not 
necessarily true or even factual; that the better-said something is 
the more it is to be suspected, in reality.  Poets are, to most 
people, just another species of promoter or propagandist, and they're 
right to think so.

> Most of the people I know who don't read poetry simply don't care
> about it, and most fall into that much larger set of people who don't read
> much at all. I'm not sure of the profundity in your reasoning, as it seems
> to boil down for the greatest part of the population to "those who don't
> read poetry aren't in love with free verse."<<

That's exactly right, profound or not. And my point is that a "big 
idea" by a free versist poet laureate to push poetry out into the 
spotlight has a hurdle larger than the indifference of the populace 
to poetry in general: it is to persuade them that free verse is 
poetry in the first place.

> ... Getting even smaller, I do know
> some people who like poetry, but only of the formal/nursery rhyme/hallmark
> variety. They don't claim any hatred of free verse, though. They simply
> don't care or don't see why anyone wants to read it. This is a very
> different thing from the active dislike and resentment you postulate.<<

I think you're wrong about that; the people who like poetry who are 
not free verse poets or editors or otherwise involved in the free 
verse pobiz themselves, really do dislike free verse, and regard it 
and the theory behind it the way they regard the American Communist 
Party and the theorty behind it: they dislike it and distrust it and 
think that those who embrace it are pretty silly.

> To me, the real issue really has little to do with convincing anyone that
> free verse is poetry.... There are plenty of rhyming poets out
> there, and almost none of them sell either. ... Most people just
> don't read, and when they do they read either out of
> necessity, nonfiction that is topically interesting, or genre
> fiction. It has nothing to do with a disillusionment about free 
> and formal verse.<<

I can go this far with you. But when you get to the people who read 
poetry for pleasure, who are not in it for the politics or the 
publication, you will almost always find that they are hostile to 
free verse, not merely indifferent. They don't understand why anyone 
would call that poetry, because to them poetry must be verse, not 
free of verse, and the notion that that which must be verse is really 
better if it is free of verse strikes them as typical intellectual 
double-talk, and they'll spit on your shadow if you persist in trying 
to persuade them that free verse is poetry.

But further, and here is where we get to what I was saying earlier, 
the people who don't read or like poetry, or who haven't since it was 
imposed on them in school, will still, if you can get them to focus 
on the issue at all will still say that free verse doesn't seem to be 
poetry to them, and they can't understand why anyone would care about 
the red wheelbarrow or the chickens or any of the rest of it, because 
it still has to be verse at least before they'll consider it poetry.

And therein lies the problem for any free versist poet laureate: the 
preliminary hurdle to appealing to the masses on behalf of free verse 
is to persuade them that it is poetry in the first place.

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From mandolin  Tue Sep  2 18:41:32 2003
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:41:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
In-Reply-To: <4c.21943a07.2c866a55@aol.com>
Message-ID: <99AA5CEE-DD96-11D7-94B0-000A95E985A4@mac.com>

[reply below, Usenet style]
On Tuesday, Sep 2, 2003, at 17:49 US/Eastern, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/2/03 3:44:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> mandolin at mac.com
> writes:
>
>> The people I meet in those contexts are far more likely than my poetry
>> students to have memorized poems and to carry them in their purses and
>> wallets, and the poetry they read is almost always metrical, rhymed 
>> verse.
>
> Michael, I'm not trying to answer for David but I wanted to make a 
> comment
> or two about this: Are we talking about "developing a larger audience" 
> for
> poetry
> or "best-loved" poems? The audience for poetry, even when free verse
> was at its height of fashion, always had access to contemporary poets
> writing formal poetry. During the ascendancy of free verse, it was 
> more a
> matter of the formal poets, for a time, being critically eclipsed, 
> wasn't it?
> If the free market was working, provided people had the knowledge of
> and interest in formal poets/poetry, they could have bought those books
> If there was more public demand for formal verse, or outright antipathy
> toward free verse, then wouldn't Wilbur/Hecht/Van Duyn/etc., have 
> outsold
> Merwin/Levine/DiPrima?  I think sales records would show the latter 
> gang
> probably sold only marginally better than the former crew. No great 
> hunger
> exists at large for contemporary poetry, be it formal or free verse.
>
> It seems like this discussion is tilting once again to "Can Poetry 
> Matter?"
> And back again to the canard that if more poets were writing poems like
> Kipling's "If" or Frost's "The Road Not Taken," then a great mass
> audience of under-served readers would swell the sales of contemporary 
> poetry.
> A lot of people carry around copies of "The Desiderata", too. Or 
> prayers to
> patron saints and excerpts from the M. L. King's "I Have A Dream" 
> speech.
> I don't think it proves too much that many people have favorite poems 
> and
> most of  those favorite poems are in rime and meter. It doesn't mean 
> they
> are part of a vast untapped audience (potential consumers) for 
> contemporary
> formal poetry.
> Finnegan

I have no real quarrel with anything you write above, except that 
carrying a copy is different from memorizing--and even then It's true 
that for purely technical reasons, formal verse is easier to memorize. 
I don't look for any great revival of poetry as a cultural force no 
matter what kind it is. But I do believe that if hell froze over, it 
would be formal verse that had the best chance of reaching my non-poet 
friends.




From marcus  Tue Sep  2 18:37:08 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 18:37:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A038@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F54E354.26516.26DE900@localhost>

> ... As it happens, I've
> seen a fair amount of "amateur" verse in my time, in places like high
> schools, slams and open-mike performances, poetry therapy, minor-league
> poetry contests, my students' journals, the vast seas of the internet, and
> so forth.  I am not just talking about subscribers to *American Poetry
> Review*, understand.  
> And guess what?  Free verse seems pretty damn popular out there.<<

Yes, among people who write or edit poetry -- that relatively small 
audience.

But unless by "big idea" for a poet laureate you and the others here 
mean only something to appeal to that "big" pobiz audience, and I 
don't think that's what you or they mean, a "big idea" for a poet 
laureate is an idea that will get poetry considered to be more 
important by those who are not in that relatively small audience of 
writers and editors who are frantically swimming about trying to find 
the egg.

And that's my point: that any free versist poet laureate who wants to 
appeal to people beyond the pobiz has the preliminary hurdle to clear 
that most people who might be willing to read poetry aren't willing 
to read free verse because they don't view it as poetry, really. They 
think that poetry has to have meter or rhyme and have memorable 
lines, and the like. The notion that WS Merwin or John Ashbery is a 
poet, or their works are poems, is simply baffling to most adult 
readers who are not already involved in the pobiz.

>  I don't
> deny that people might carry rhymed and metered stuff in their wallets for
> inspirational purposes, but that's a different line of argument, I'd say.
> The majority of Americans probably don't read *anything* we could call
> literary, whether Angelou or Grisham or Galway Kinnell.  As a student of
> mine wrote yesterday in his self-introduction, he doesn't read anything
> voluntarily except hunting magazines.<<

Well, it seems to me that the fact that people DO carry rhymed or 
metered stuff in their wallets is a demonstration that they do think 
of that as poetry and of free verse as well not poetry. I don't know 
anyone, not even poets in the pobiz, who carry around free verse in 
their wallets for inspiration or any other reason, for example.

And isn't the fact that people in college will declare that they read 
nothing but hunting magazines voluntarily a significant admission of 
failure of the educational system at least as it is concerned with 
literature?
 
Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From chris  Tue Sep  2 18:56:02 2003
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:56:02 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <3F54E060.2933.2625EFC@localhost>
Message-ID: <00b401c371a5$62d75e90$5743e589@TECH>

On Tuesday, September 02, 2003 2:24 PM, Marcus Bales
<marcus at designerglass.com> spake thusly:

> Well, the question with which we began was what "big idea" would you,
> as poet laureate, bring to the table, and I replied that in my view
> there was a preliminary hurdle: that the vast majority of readers
> don't care because they view free verse as non-poetry to begin with --
>  so any poet laureate's first job, if he or she wants to achieve a
> "big idea" (and here I am perhaps erroneously assuming from tone and
> context that what is meant by "big idea" is one that will push poetry
> more into the general public's consciousness), is to persuade that
> same vast majority to which you refer that free verse is poetry.

Personally, I think the idea of making poetry part of the general public's
life is a lost cause. It is, and will always be, a niche market. I don't see
any difference in this than in indie films, literary fiction, etc... I don't
have any hope that even 1 in every 100 Tom Clancy fanatics will wake up one
day and want to read even Ian McEwen or Sherman Alexie, much less
Ursula Hegi.

> but that's okay; most meter-and-rhymers are con
> artists and not real artists, too.

Well, you, I, Sturgeon, and probably everyone on this list can agree with
the 90% is bullshit saw.

> That's exactly right, profound or not. And my point is that a "big
> idea" by a free versist poet laureate to push poetry out into the
> spotlight has a hurdle larger than the indifference of the populace
> to poetry in general: it is to persuade them that free verse is
> poetry in the first place.

I think the "big idea" is one that brings in readership from that larger set
of readers from whom that is even a reasonable expectation-- which is a much
different thing from the general public. Your hurdle is nowhere near the
biggest one when it comes to "everyone"-- that hurdle is getting any of them
to read in the first place.

Your argument, to my ears, is like someone saying: "Newspaper sales are in
decline, in order to get people to read newspapers you need to convince them
that Rick Bragg is a real reporter." That isn't the problem. That isn't even
a measurable part of the problem.

>
>> ... Getting even smaller, I do know
>> some people who like poetry, but only of the formal/nursery
>> rhyme/hallmark variety. They don't claim any hatred of free verse,
>> though. They simply don't care or don't see why anyone wants to read
>> it. This is a very different thing from the active dislike and
>> resentment you postulate.<<
>
> I think you're wrong about that; the people who like poetry who are
> not free verse poets or editors or otherwise involved in the free
> verse pobiz themselves, really do dislike free verse, and regard it
> and the theory behind it the way they regard the American Communist
> Party and the theorty behind it: they dislike it and distrust it and
> think that those who embrace it are pretty silly.

Well, I think you are wrong about that. I grew up in a family that actively
dislikes "schooling." I was the first to get through middle school. The only
one to attend college. My dad used to smack me for sitting around and
reading too much. To this day I don't believe most of them have ever read a
book of fiction or poetry. Auto manuals, the sports section... that's it.
Even these folks don't dislike poetry. To say that would be like saying that
my friend Jenn hates "The West Wing" when the truth is she has never seen
it. She doesn't watch any television at all.

I guess we know a lot of very different people.

> I can go this far with you. But when you get to the people who read
> poetry for pleasure, who are not in it for the politics or the
> publication, you will almost always find that they are hostile to
> free verse, not merely indifferent. They don't understand why anyone
> would call that poetry, because to them poetry must be verse, not
> free of verse, and the notion that that which must be verse is really
> better if it is free of verse strikes them as typical intellectual
> double-talk, and they'll spit on your shadow if you persist in trying
> to persuade them that free verse is poetry.

I don't think this contention is borne out by sales alone, nor by my
experience. Billy Collins was breaking records before he was appointed
Laureate. He is actively despised by many within academia. How is that
possible? To be sure, there is a group who dislike poetry in the way you
describe, though it is often symptomatic of being resentful towards arts and
liberal education, which they see as frivolous. My uncle lives in a more
remote community near here and they all homeschool-- when their kids do go
to college, they become engineers and tradespeople because their parents
despise what they picture as tweed-bound academics and artists wasting their
time. This resentment, however, is not limited to poetry, and they would be
irritated equally by the idea of Bob Frost and Bob Grumman. And that is
where I think you are wrong in your division of the audience for which ever
caring about poetry is a reasonable expectation.

> But further, and here is where we get to what I was saying earlier,
> the people who don't read or like poetry, or who haven't since it was
> imposed on them in school, will still, if you can get them to focus
> on the issue at all will still say that free verse doesn't seem to be
> poetry to them, and they can't understand why anyone would care about
> the red wheelbarrow or the chickens or any of the rest of it, because
> it still has to be verse at least before they'll consider it poetry.
>
> And therein lies the problem for any free versist poet laureate: the
> preliminary hurdle to appealing to the masses on behalf of free verse
> is to persuade them that it is poetry in the first place.

This strikes me as a projection of your own desire for a logical schema
sufficient to satisfy  Marcus Bales, which is generally not the same kind of
standard most people who are interested in art appear to hold. Most folks I
know that read poetry at all don't spend nearly as much time wringing their
hands about a definition of what poetry is. Reaching those who don't read or
like poetry at all is a different problem and, again, I don't think the
biggest issue is getting them to like poetry, it is getting them interested
in reading, first, and any kind of "literary quality, second. That is the
same problem, generally, as getting the John Grisham devotee interested in
Tim O'Brien (or whoever), which also seems irresolvable to me.

You think that there is an active resentment of free verse amongst readers
of other kinds of work-- do you think the same can be said of the Danielle
Steele readers? Do they equally hate literary fiction? Or mystery? Or spy
novels? Or are they just not interested?

c




From hruggier  Tue Sep  2 19:53:55 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 19:53:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEIGHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <20030901151054.N7971@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <3F552D93.D2BE25BE@localnet.com>

How about making license plates have poems instead of numbers.



kpaul mallasch wrote:

> You got my vote, Hal. ;)
>
> -kpaul
>
> On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Halvard Johnson wrote:
>
> >
> > {    I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
> > {    what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?
> > {
> > {    Finnegan
> >
> > I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.
> >
> > Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
> >
> > Halvard Johnson
> > ===============
> > email: halvard at earthlink.net
> > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From kpaul  Tue Sep  2 20:11:50 2003
From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:11:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <00b401c371a5$62d75e90$5743e589@TECH>
References: <3F54E060.2933.2625EFC@localhost> <00b401c371a5$62d75e90$5743e589@TECH>
Message-ID: <20030902191128.H2457@kpaul.spinweb.net>

[It is, and will always be, a niche market.]

Wasn't always that way, though. At one point the poet/bard was the only
game in town. ;)

-kpaul

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Chris Lott wrote:

> On Tuesday, September 02, 2003 2:24 PM, Marcus Bales
> <marcus at designerglass.com> spake thusly:
>
> > Well, the question with which we began was what "big idea" would you,
> > as poet laureate, bring to the table, and I replied that in my view
> > there was a preliminary hurdle: that the vast majority of readers
> > don't care because they view free verse as non-poetry to begin with --
> >  so any poet laureate's first job, if he or she wants to achieve a
> > "big idea" (and here I am perhaps erroneously assuming from tone and
> > context that what is meant by "big idea" is one that will push poetry
> > more into the general public's consciousness), is to persuade that
> > same vast majority to which you refer that free verse is poetry.
>
> Personally, I think the idea of making poetry part of the general public's
> life is a lost cause. It is, and will always be, a niche market. I don't see
> any difference in this than in indie films, literary fiction, etc... I don't
> have any hope that even 1 in every 100 Tom Clancy fanatics will wake up one
> day and want to read even Ian McEwen or Sherman Alexie, much less
> Ursula Hegi.
>
> > but that's okay; most meter-and-rhymers are con
> > artists and not real artists, too.
>
> Well, you, I, Sturgeon, and probably everyone on this list can agree with
> the 90% is bullshit saw.
>
> > That's exactly right, profound or not. And my point is that a "big
> > idea" by a free versist poet laureate to push poetry out into the
> > spotlight has a hurdle larger than the indifference of the populace
> > to poetry in general: it is to persuade them that free verse is
> > poetry in the first place.
>
> I think the "big idea" is one that brings in readership from that larger set
> of readers from whom that is even a reasonable expectation-- which is a much
> different thing from the general public. Your hurdle is nowhere near the
> biggest one when it comes to "everyone"-- that hurdle is getting any of them
> to read in the first place.
>
> Your argument, to my ears, is like someone saying: "Newspaper sales are in
> decline, in order to get people to read newspapers you need to convince them
> that Rick Bragg is a real reporter." That isn't the problem. That isn't even
> a measurable part of the problem.
>
> >
> >> ... Getting even smaller, I do know
> >> some people who like poetry, but only of the formal/nursery
> >> rhyme/hallmark variety. They don't claim any hatred of free verse,
> >> though. They simply don't care or don't see why anyone wants to read
> >> it. This is a very different thing from the active dislike and
> >> resentment you postulate.<<
> >
> > I think you're wrong about that; the people who like poetry who are
> > not free verse poets or editors or otherwise involved in the free
> > verse pobiz themselves, really do dislike free verse, and regard it
> > and the theory behind it the way they regard the American Communist
> > Party and the theorty behind it: they dislike it and distrust it and
> > think that those who embrace it are pretty silly.
>
> Well, I think you are wrong about that. I grew up in a family that actively
> dislikes "schooling." I was the first to get through middle school. The only
> one to attend college. My dad used to smack me for sitting around and
> reading too much. To this day I don't believe most of them have ever read a
> book of fiction or poetry. Auto manuals, the sports section... that's it.
> Even these folks don't dislike poetry. To say that would be like saying that
> my friend Jenn hates "The West Wing" when the truth is she has never seen
> it. She doesn't watch any television at all.
>
> I guess we know a lot of very different people.
>
> > I can go this far with you. But when you get to the people who read
> > poetry for pleasure, who are not in it for the politics or the
> > publication, you will almost always find that they are hostile to
> > free verse, not merely indifferent. They don't understand why anyone
> > would call that poetry, because to them poetry must be verse, not
> > free of verse, and the notion that that which must be verse is really
> > better if it is free of verse strikes them as typical intellectual
> > double-talk, and they'll spit on your shadow if you persist in trying
> > to persuade them that free verse is poetry.
>
> I don't think this contention is borne out by sales alone, nor by my
> experience. Billy Collins was breaking records before he was appointed
> Laureate. He is actively despised by many within academia. How is that
> possible? To be sure, there is a group who dislike poetry in the way you
> describe, though it is often symptomatic of being resentful towards arts and
> liberal education, which they see as frivolous. My uncle lives in a more
> remote community near here and they all homeschool-- when their kids do go
> to college, they become engineers and tradespeople because their parents
> despise what they picture as tweed-bound academics and artists wasting their
> time. This resentment, however, is not limited to poetry, and they would be
> irritated equally by the idea of Bob Frost and Bob Grumman. And that is
> where I think you are wrong in your division of the audience for which ever
> caring about poetry is a reasonable expectation.
>
> > But further, and here is where we get to what I was saying earlier,
> > the people who don't read or like poetry, or who haven't since it was
> > imposed on them in school, will still, if you can get them to focus
> > on the issue at all will still say that free verse doesn't seem to be
> > poetry to them, and they can't understand why anyone would care about
> > the red wheelbarrow or the chickens or any of the rest of it, because
> > it still has to be verse at least before they'll consider it poetry.
> >
> > And therein lies the problem for any free versist poet laureate: the
> > preliminary hurdle to appealing to the masses on behalf of free verse
> > is to persuade them that it is poetry in the first place.
>
> This strikes me as a projection of your own desire for a logical schema
> sufficient to satisfy  Marcus Bales, which is generally not the same kind of
> standard most people who are interested in art appear to hold. Most folks I
> know that read poetry at all don't spend nearly as much time wringing their
> hands about a definition of what poetry is. Reaching those who don't read or
> like poetry at all is a different problem and, again, I don't think the
> biggest issue is getting them to like poetry, it is getting them interested
> in reading, first, and any kind of "literary quality, second. That is the
> same problem, generally, as getting the John Grisham devotee interested in
> Tim O'Brien (or whoever), which also seems irresolvable to me.
>
> You think that there is an active resentment of free verse amongst readers
> of other kinds of work-- do you think the same can be said of the Danielle
> Steele readers? Do they equally hate literary fiction? Or mystery? Or spy
> novels? Or are they just not interested?
>
> c
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From kpaul  Tue Sep  2 20:14:58 2003
From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:14:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <3F552D93.D2BE25BE@localnet.com>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEIGHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
 <20030901151054.N7971@kpaul.spinweb.net> <3F552D93.D2BE25BE@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <20030902191411.T2457@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Would the prison poets make them up as they go? They'd have to be short,
too, like:

Life Sucks. Move on.

Wanton Winds Whisper.

And so on. ;)

-kpaul

On Tue, 2 Sep 2003, Helen Ruggieri wrote:

> How about making license plates have poems instead of numbers.
>
>
>
> kpaul mallasch wrote:
>
> > You got my vote, Hal. ;)
> >
> > -kpaul
> >
> > On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > {    I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
> > > {    what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?
> > > {
> > > {    Finnegan
> > >
> > > I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.
> > >
> > > Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
> > >
> > > Halvard Johnson
> > > ===============
> > > email: halvard at earthlink.net
> > > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From bobgrumman  Tue Sep  2 20:25:14 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 20:25:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <3F54E060.2933.2625EFC@localhost> <00b401c371a5$62d75e90$5743e589@TECH>
Message-ID: <020901c371b1$d8b9a120$0090fea9@j1c1k6>

> Personally, I think the idea of making poetry part of the general public's
> life is a lost cause. It is, and will always be, a niche market. I don't
see
> any difference in this than in indie films, literary fiction, etc... I
don't
> have any hope that even 1 in every 100 Tom Clancy fanatics will wake up
one
> day and want to read even Ian McEwen or Sherman Alexie, much less
> Ursula Hegi.
>
> > but that's okay; most meter-and-rhymers are con
> > artists and not real artists, too.
>
> Well, you, I, Sturgeon, and probably everyone on this list can agree with
> the 90% is bullshit saw.

But 90% aren't con-artists!  Maybe, what, 5% at the most?  Pretending to be
poets to impress literary guruls?

SNIP of Chris's remarks, about all of which I agree with.

--Bob G.




From mandolin  Tue Sep  2 21:05:50 2003
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 21:05:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A038@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <C2751627-DDAA-11D7-94B0-000A95E985A4@mac.com>

On Tuesday, Sep 2, 2003, at 18:14 US/Eastern, Graham, David wrote:

> But among real *readers* both amateur and pro, well, I just don't see 
> this
> supposed antipathy to free verse.  Billy Colllins does not appeal 
> merely to
> a PoBiz audience--and there's quite a bit of hostility to him in the
> academic world, actually, while non-mavens like my sister-in-law often 
> love
> his stuff.

I think the fact that your sister-in-law reads Collins means she's at 
least somewhat aware of the PoBiz--which is not identical to its 
academic wing. But I've been talking, as has Marcus, about people for 
whom Collins (whose work I often enjoy) might as well be a Martian.  
Did you know some hunting magazines (especially local rags) print 
poetry?

Michael




From bardo  Tue Sep  2 22:34:40 2003
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 22:34:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
References: <3F54CCE5.11274.2164600@localhost>
Message-ID: <010601c371c3$eda2b290$6d94c044@MULDER>

Marcus,

Why should anyone give a flaming sack of shit what "most people in the US"
consider 'real' poetry? De gustibus non est disputandam, at least to the
extent that "most people" rarely wax critically articulate about why they
prefer one kind of poetry over another anyhow.

What (&/or whose) poetry really matters to _you_, Marcus, and why?
Presumably you don't select what to read based on what "most people" regard
as valid, right? Did you frame this thread with the plumb bob of mobocracy
alone, or do you have a more cogent measure in mind?

Do you write for "most people in the US"? If so, why, for Godsake?
To end-run Angelou? To non-plus McCuen? To out-bark Hallmark?

I hope that by asking these questions I haven't set myself up as one more
tin bunny in your by-now-predictable shooting gallery.

--Dan, your former nemesis, eventually benumbed




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:01 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales


> On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:55, Graham, David wrote:
> > Maya Angelou's not much of a poet, it's true....
> > Within the small pond of literary poetry, the "new formalists" have been
a
> > most welcome development ...
>
> Hoist by your own petard, David: you admit that the literary poetry
> pond is small and that Angelou is not much of a poet. That pretty
> much sums up my argument that most people in the US think free verse
> is not poetry at all and destroys your argument that Angelou's sales
> are evidence that most people in the US think free verse is poetry
> after all.
>
> Marcus Bales
>
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From marcus  Wed Sep  3 07:55:46 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 07:55:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <00b401c371a5$62d75e90$5743e589@TECH>
Message-ID: <3F559E82.23656.236A65@localhost>

> Personally, I think the idea of making poetry part of the general public's
> life is a lost cause. It is, and will always be, a niche market. I don't see
> any difference in this than in indie films, literary fiction, etc... I don't
> have any hope that even 1 in every 100 Tom Clancy fanatics will wake up one
> day and want to read even Ian McEwen or Sherman Alexie, much less
> Ursula Hegi.

Yes, well, to be sure -- but there is, in my experience, a 
significant percentage of the public who want to read poetry, they 
just want it to be memorable, have meter, and often rhyme, and they 
are mostly women. They do in fact read some poetry, and regularly 
though not frequently have some memorized. I encounter these women 
most frequently in the demographic my business serves: over 45, 
married, relatively well-off, whose children are just finishing or 
have left college, and who are looking around now in the arts for 
some kind of meaningfulness. 
 
> Your argument, to my ears, is like someone saying: "Newspaper sales are in
> decline, in order to get people to read newspapers you need to convince them
> that Rick Bragg is a real reporter." That isn't the problem. That isn't even
> a measurable part of the problem.

But it is a measurable part of the problem because it goes directly 
to the heart of the matter: credibility.  And the same with free 
verse poets -- they have almost no credibility as poets with the 
group of people who are looking for art in the US today, in my 
experience. Oh, sure, there are a few who, seeing what is published 
as poetry today, accurately assess the situation and start calling 
themselves poets and self-publish and do readings for the local book 
and garden club circuit, such as it is, but the women who attend 
those functions do so for the books and gardening, for the social 
interaction, and endure the poetry, and are reinforced in their 
opinion that that isn't really poetry by the very people who have 
jumped on the free verse train. 

> ... I grew up in a family that actively
> dislikes "schooling." I was the first to get through middle school. The only
> one to attend college. My dad used to smack me for sitting around and
> reading too much. ... I guess we know a lot of very different people.<<

I'd say.

> ... To be sure, there is a group who dislike poetry in the way you
> describe, though it is often symptomatic of being resentful towards arts and
> liberal education, which they see as frivolous.<<

There is, of course, this group, too -- but they're not the group I'm 
talking about. I'm talking about a group of people, perhaps 10% of 
the adult population, who would be interested in poetry if it were 
not for free versists and their apologists: people who seem to think 
that obscurationism is good and meter is bad; I'm talking about peple 
who are looking for significance and importance in the arts and who 
are baffled by abstract expressionism in all its forms. 

> ... Most folks I
> know that read poetry at all don't spend nearly as much time wringing their
> hands about a definition of what poetry is.<<

But this is again trying to shift the argument in the middle: you are 
back to talking about people who ALREADY read poetry. I'm talking 
about people who WOULD read poetry if they could find something that 
looked like poetry to them -- and free verse just doesn't look like 
poetry to them. They are not dumb: they understand that the academy 
has given its imprimatur to free verse, that free verse by and large 
what editors of books and magazines publish -- but it doesn't reach 
these people. In my opinion the reason it doesn't reach them is that 
it's not verse at all; it is neither memorable nor accessible as a 
general rule. And sure there are accessible free versists, but then 
you are into the "my third grader can do that" territory.

These are people for whom the idea of order is important, and they 
think they are being mocked, frankly, by the entire notion of free 
verse. And, by and large, they are being mocked. They are exactly the 
high-toned women that academics find distastefully common and 
unacceptably bright. They ask hard questions and they expect good 
answers -- and most poets (free versists or not) haven't got good 
answers; they mostly haven't got any answers at all beyond that they 
enjoy the process of writing and are ecstatic about the fact that the 
judgment about what is good and bad in contemporary poetry are so 
idiosyncratcially subjective with individual editors, and, thus, that 
there is always someone to validate their status as poets.

> You think that there is an active resentment of free verse amongst readers
> of other kinds of work-- do you think the same can be said of the Danielle
> Steele readers? Do they equally hate literary fiction? Or mystery? Or spy
> novels? Or are they just not interested?<<

Well, perhaps not Danielle Steele readers, but certainly among 
Georgette Heyer, Nora Roberts, Catherine Coulter, Julie Garwood, 
Jayne Ann Krentz, Suzan Elizabeth Phillips and Heather Graham 
readers.

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From marcus  Wed Sep  3 08:02:15 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:02:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
In-Reply-To: <010601c371c3$eda2b290$6d94c044@MULDER>
Message-ID: <3F55A007.22699.295A96@localhost>

Daniel Zimmerman wrote:
> Why should anyone give a flaming sack of shit what "most people in the US"
> consider 'real' poetry?<<

I don't know -- but it was my impression from the question asked and 
the answers given that that was exactly what the "big idea" for a 
poet laureate was all about. Perhaps you should ask this question of 
those who have ideas about what "big idea" they'd embrace if they 
were poet laureate. Except for Hal, of course, who's on the right 
track.

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From anny.ballardini  Wed Sep  3 08:08:30 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:08:30 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
References: <3F55A007.22699.295A96@localhost>
Message-ID: <007801c37214$172f6400$01737450@anny>

Oh sorry Bales, I also forgot to mention that together with the ballet
dancers I would also have the best artist to work with fireworks in the
skies (notice plural), plus an enormous choir of singers accompanied by the
best philharmonic orchestras,
...
any other suggestions to complete?
:-)
anny

From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> Daniel Zimmerman wrote:
> > Why should anyone give a flaming sack of shit what "most people in the
US"
> > consider 'real' poetry?<<
>
> I don't know -- but it was my impression from the question asked and
> the answers given that that was exactly what the "big idea" for a
> poet laureate was all about. Perhaps you should ask this question of
> those who have ideas about what "big idea" they'd embrace if they
> were poet laureate. Except for Hal, of course, who's on the right
> track.
>
> Marcus Bales
>
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From marcus  Wed Sep  3 08:16:19 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 08:16:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <3F55A353.16183.363B6D@localhost>

> Personally, I think the idea of making poetry part of the general public's
> life is a lost cause. It is, and will always be, a niche market. I don't see
> any difference in this than in indie films, literary fiction, etc... I don't
> have any hope that even 1 in every 100 Tom Clancy fanatics will wake up one
> day and want to read even Ian McEwen or Sherman Alexie, much less
> Ursula Hegi.

Yes, well, to be sure -- but there is, in my experience, a 
significant percentage of the public who want to read poetry, they 
just want it to be memorable, have meter, and often rhyme, and they 
are mostly women. They do in fact read some poetry, and regularly 
though not frequently have some memorized. I encounter these women 
most frequently in the demographic my business serves: over 45, 
married, relatively well-off, whose children are just finishing or 
have left college, and who are looking around now in the arts for 
some kind of meaningfulness. 
 
> Your argument, to my ears, is like someone saying: "Newspaper sales are in
> decline, in order to get people to read newspapers you need to convince them
> that Rick Bragg is a real reporter." That isn't the problem. That isn't even
> a measurable part of the problem.

But it is a measurable part of the problem because it goes directly 
to the heart of the matter: credibility.  And the same with free 
verse poets -- they have almost no credibility as poets with the 
group of people who are looking for art in the US today, in my 
experience. Oh, sure, there are a few who, seeing what is published 
as poetry today, accurately assess the situation and start calling 
themselves poets and self-publish and do readings for the local book 
and garden club circuit, such as it is, but the women who attend 
those functions do so for the books and gardening, for the social 
interaction, and endure the poetry, and are reinforced in their 
opinion that that isn't really poetry by the very people who have 
jumped on the free verse train. 

> ... I grew up in a family that actively
> dislikes "schooling." I was the first to get through middle school. The only
> one to attend college. My dad used to smack me for sitting around and
> reading too much. ... I guess we know a lot of very different people.<<

I'd say.

> ... To be sure, there is a group who dislike poetry in the way you
> describe, though it is often symptomatic of being resentful towards arts and
> liberal education, which they see as frivolous.<<

There is, of course, this group, too -- but they're not the group I'm 
talking about. I'm talking about a group of people, perhaps 10% of 
the adult population, who would be interested in poetry if it were 
not for free versists and their apologists: people who seem to think 
that obscurationism is good and meter is bad; I'm talking about peple 
who are looking for significance and importance in the arts and who 
are baffled by abstract expressionism in all its forms. 

> ... Most folks I
> know that read poetry at all don't spend nearly as much time wringing their
> hands about a definition of what poetry is.<<

But this is again trying to shift the argument in the middle: you are 
back to talking about people who ALREADY read poetry. I'm talking 
about people who WOULD read poetry if they could find something that 
looked like poetry to them -- and free verse just doesn't look like 
poetry to them. They are not dumb: they understand that the academy 
has given its imprimatur to free verse, that free verse by and large 
what editors of books and magazines publish -- but it doesn't reach 
these people. In my opinion the reason it doesn't reach them is that 
it's not verse at all; it is neither memorable nor accessible as a 
general rule. And sure there are accessible free versists, but then 
you are into the "my third grader can do that" territory.

These are people for whom the idea of order is important, and they 
think they are being mocked, frankly, by the entire notion of free 
verse. And, by and large, they are being mocked. They are exactly the 
high-toned women that academics find distastefully common and 
unacceptably bright. They ask hard questions and they expect good 
answers -- and most poets (free versists or not) haven't got good 
answers; they mostly haven't got any answers at all beyond that they 
enjoy the process of writing and are ecstatic about the fact that the 
judgment about what is good and bad in contemporary poetry are so 
idiosyncratcially subjective with individual editors, and, thus, that 
there is always someone to validate their status as poets.

> You think that there is an active resentment of free verse amongst readers
> of other kinds of work-- do you think the same can be said of the Danielle
> Steele readers? Do they equally hate literary fiction? Or mystery? Or spy
> novels? Or are they just not interested?<<

Well, perhaps not Danielle Steele readers, but certainly among 
Georgette Heyer, Nora Roberts, Catherine Coulter, Julie Garwood, 
Jayne Ann Krentz, Suzan Elizabeth Phillips and Heather Graham 
readers.
Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From anny.ballardini  Wed Sep  3 08:17:33 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:17:33 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales + grand ideas
References: <3F55A007.22699.295A96@localhost> <007801c37214$172f6400$01737450@anny>
Message-ID: <009001c37215$5ac44e00$01737450@anny>

correcting,
... yes, definitely -artists- is plural as well,
sorry for thinking something and typing something different.

> Oh sorry Bales, I also forgot to mention that together with the ballet
> dancers I would also have the best artist to work with fireworks in the
> skies (notice plural), plus an enormous choir of singers accompanied by
the
> best philharmonic orchestras,
> ...
> any other suggestions to complete?
> :-)
> anny
>
> From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>
>
> > Daniel Zimmerman wrote:
> > > Why should anyone give a flaming sack of shit what "most people in the
> US"
> > > consider 'real' poetry?<<
> >
> > I don't know -- but it was my impression from the question asked and
> > the answers given that that was exactly what the "big idea" for a
> > poet laureate was all about. Perhaps you should ask this question of
> > those who have ideas about what "big idea" they'd embrace if they
> > were poet laureate. Except for Hal, of course, who's on the right
> > track.
> >
> > Marcus Bales
> >
> > marcus at designerglass.com
> > http://www.designerglass.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From JforJames  Wed Sep  3 10:15:23 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:15:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <168.2361ea63.2c87517b@aol.com>

marcus at designerglass.com writes:

> So, if you get to be Poet Laureate and you really want to reach a 
>  larger audience you first have to address the "Jackson Pollack 
>  Syndrome", the "my third grader can do that syndrome", the "you're a 
>  fraud syndrome".

excerpt from your early post on this subject...then:

> I'm talking about a group of people, perhaps 10% of 
>  the adult population, who would be interested in poetry if it were 
>  not for free versists and their apologists: people who seem to think 
>  that obscurationism is good and meter is bad; I'm talking about peple 
>  who are looking for significance and importance in the arts and who 
>  are baffled by abstract expressionism in all its forms. 

Marcus, you've put art (or What is art?) into this 
discussion, and I want speak to that. My first 
assertion is that anyone who doesn't understand 
what Jackson Pollock and abstract expression were 
all about isn't really a fit to be part of an audience 
any artist should want to have.  
I'm not talking about what a person likes, that's a 
personal decision, that's one's taste. I'm talking about 
a narrowness of mind that doesn't recognize or understand 
that art is, ontologically, all about creation outside of 
nature. And that Abstract Expression, whether one 
likes its products or not, was (and still is) an important 
part of that struggle to create. One can be critical of 
abstract work, one can devalue the results of certain 
artist's efforts, but if one is simply (or simple-mindedly)
dismissive of it as Art, it tells me something about the 
capacity of that individual to apprehend art. So that even 
if I was a realist painter, like a Philip Pearlstein or a 
Scott Prior, I couldn't care less if  that person admired 
or valued my art. 

So perhaps we should turn this argument around and 
question what are that vast untapped audience's qualifications. 
What have they read, what have they looked at and 
thought about, what work have they done to be qualified
to be a part of what Art is all about in the 21stC? We 
shouldn't just give out free passes. This may sound elitist, 
but art is not a right so much as it is a privilege. A privilege 
an individual must earn. Perhaps we shouldn't be worrying 
about attracting quantity (larger numbers of people buying 
books or going to art galleries and concert halls) but 
look at developing quality among the audience (the ability 
to see to hear or to read and come away from the experience
with more to say than, "I know what I like, and I don't like this
stuff.")  So I call for a poet laureate who will attend not only
to the breadth of the audience but also to its depth. 
Finnegan



From GrahamD  Wed Sep  3 10:52:14 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 09:52:14 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Phenomenal Sales
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A039@mail.ripon.edu>

A few more thoughts--less in refutation than rumination. . . .  

I honestly don't spend a lot of time worrying over the State of Poetry.
Guess I'd make a lousy Poet Laureate, assuming that the laureate's job is to
promote poetry as a large cultural force.  I share the suspicion voiced by
many that literary poetry (as opposed to inspirational doggerel, Hallmark
sentiments, etc.) is probably never going to be a *large* cultural force.
Not much use in lamenting that fact over and over.

We all seem to agree that, demographically speaking, most Americans don't
read a lot of contemporary poetry--just as most Americans don't read much
John Updike or Toni Morrison.  But we'll probably never agree on the reasons
why, or whether this is a new phenomenon.  I incline to the view that it's
not particularly new--that highbrow poetry has always been a relatively rare
taste-- but I note that no one seems able to bring forth much concrete
evidence on the matter.  

In any case, the argument that poetry has "lost its audience" due to willful
obscurity, watered-down standards, lack of meter, and so forth--hasn't yet
convinced me.  Among other things, there's a chicken-and-egg problem here:
most common readers would certainly consider Jorie Graham's poetry to be
pretentious gibberish--but are her scant sales figures part of the cause or
the effect of poetry's disengagement from American public life?  *Are* there
masses of readers yearning for accessible Longfellowian verse?  And are
these masses not being served by accessible free versers like Billy Collins,
who sells in quantities hardly dreamed of by Auden, Eliot, or Williams?
Well, show me.  

Still, apart from the problem of whether poetry can matter in public life,
poetry can be a most powerful personal force, i.e. it can and does touch
individuals in a deep way.  That's the news that stays news.  And, since I'm
a teacher by trade, I've very interested in helping individuals open up to
the art of poetry--free verse and metered, page poetry and oral, old stuff
and new.  I don't know about big initiatives or large cultural forces, but I
do know something about teaching students one by one.

So I guess if I had a "big idea" to suggest for a poet laureate, it would
definitely be school-related.  Billy Collins's Poetry 180 initiative strikes
me as fairly quixotic, essentially harmless and probably ineffectual.  But I
think he was on the right track--IF we wish to promote more appreciation of
poetry among a larger demographic, we would need to find ways of NOT turning
off so many people to the art during their school days.  First, do no harm. 

My sister-in-law doesn't know Gerald Stern from Ron Silliman, and doesn't
much care.  In that sense, she is definitely not a part of PoBiz, though she
is an educated person and quite open to poetry if it speaks to her.  She
heard Billy Collins on NPR, though, and liked what he wrote enough to go out
and purchase a book, and then buy copies as gifts for others.  That's not a
large cultural force, true, but it's also not something I sneer at.  

Whether and how one might get the non-educated public more interested in
poetry--well, good luck and let me know how that works out for you.  Merle
Haggard's or Garth Brooks's songs are probably all the poetry that most such
folks are going to pay attention to--and I certainly am not sneering at
that, either.  Many rooms in the mansion of poetry.



============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> 
> 
> I think the fact that your sister-in-law reads Collins means she's at 
> least somewhat aware of the PoBiz--which is not identical to its 
> academic wing. But I've been talking, as has Marcus, about people for 
> whom Collins (whose work I often enjoy) might as well be a Martian.  
> Did you know some hunting magazines (especially local rags) print 
> poetry?
> 
> Michael
> 



From MIM47  Wed Sep  3 12:49:44 2003
From: MIM47 (MIM47 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:49:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the wings of poetry
Message-ID: <fb.45fb0fbc.2c8775a8@aol.com>

Ok, I have read the discussion and have to jump in here. 

As an art, an indispensible human art, poetry  is not dead, not sick even. It 
is asleep. Part of the reason for that is that it was kidnapped, gagged, 
bound, and thrown into a closet in the English Departments of many colleges and 
universities decades ago. Another part of the problem is that in the late 60's, 
New Criticism waved its claws around and insisted that there was one and only 
one way to critique, examine, and decide about a poem, the trained academic's 
way. It was New Criticism that administered the mind-numbing drug to poetry. 

Then we got Beat, and we got liberated from New Criticism, although academia 
still maintained its ownership of the LAND OF POETRY (much the way the US 
maintained its ownership of Native America). Free verse (vers libre) was supposed 
to be a revolution, a new thing, a breaking open. Ha! It is now so status quo 
that many poets (exclude the New Formalists, New Expansionists) wouldn't know 
a sestina if they tripped over it six times. There is so much flat, boring, 
sappy syrupy verse out there that we are artistically obese from all the sugar. 
It is too easy to read that crap and call it poetry. And we do our citizens a 
disservice in assuming that is all they can handle. They can handle complex 
subjects written about in interesting ways that are not obscure. The reading 
public simply feels excluded. 

What is very wrong, and why the average citizen feels excluded from the 
po-scene, is that there is very little in the way of formal underpinning in much of 
the free verse today. Many professors go so far as to tell their graduate 
students to stop writing in form when they encounter it. I think it is because 
they themselves didn't get schooled in the basics (other than recognizing the 
beats in a line or the most rudimentary meter). What the general public (reading 
public) wants is a sense of the underlying structure, even if they don't know 
what that structure is. It is not Hallmark they want, it is music. Most kids 
can recite the words to dozens of their favorite songs, but believe they can't 
learn to recite poems. Bah! Take a gander at places like sonoma Country Day 
School (CA) or St. John's Prep HS (MA) and find memorization and recitation 
alive and well. What are these kids memorizing? reciting? poems that have a 
metrical base! Look at a country like Wales where poetry is part of daily life and 
there are huge national festivals where folks recite (farmers, sheep herders, 
housewives, students, all reciting along with "professional' poets). 

We can fix this problem. We need to keep at it. We need to expose kids to 
poems and to the process of writing and reading poetry. I was teaching in a home 
school enrichment program three years ago and decided to do "beginning poetry 
analysis" with the 6-9 grade class (12 students). By the time I was at the end 
of the 14 weeks, these kids could distinguish internal rhyme (end-stopped 
too, tho they grew to prefer the more subtle rhymes). they could tap out meter, 
and could give the surface meaning and another layer of meaning in the poems we 
studied. Iused Naomi Shihab Nye's anthology, Under The Same Sky so they got 
poems from all over the globe. The most wonderful thing (cuz I KNEW the kids 
would be able to do it) was that by course end, 10 of the parents were also 
attending and had learned how to appreciate poems. AND..all of the families were 
reading poetry together at home.

So it is possible and likely that we can make a difference. We need to dig in 
and do it.

I invite comments.

Carol Bachofner





From tadrichards  Wed Sep  3 13:10:47 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:10:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Phenomenal Sales
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A039@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <006801c3723e$52034270$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Ever notice how you never see Gerald Stern and Ron Silliman in the same
place?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:52 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Phenomenal Sales


> A few more thoughts--less in refutation than rumination. . . .
>
> I honestly don't spend a lot of time worrying over the State of Poetry.
> Guess I'd make a lousy Poet Laureate, assuming that the laureate's job is
to
> promote poetry as a large cultural force.  I share the suspicion voiced by
> many that literary poetry (as opposed to inspirational doggerel, Hallmark
> sentiments, etc.) is probably never going to be a *large* cultural force.
> Not much use in lamenting that fact over and over.
>
> We all seem to agree that, demographically speaking, most Americans don't
> read a lot of contemporary poetry--just as most Americans don't read much
> John Updike or Toni Morrison.  But we'll probably never agree on the
reasons
> why, or whether this is a new phenomenon.  I incline to the view that it's
> not particularly new--that highbrow poetry has always been a relatively
rare
> taste-- but I note that no one seems able to bring forth much concrete
> evidence on the matter.
>
> In any case, the argument that poetry has "lost its audience" due to
willful
> obscurity, watered-down standards, lack of meter, and so forth--hasn't yet
> convinced me.  Among other things, there's a chicken-and-egg problem here:
> most common readers would certainly consider Jorie Graham's poetry to be
> pretentious gibberish--but are her scant sales figures part of the cause
or
> the effect of poetry's disengagement from American public life?  *Are*
there
> masses of readers yearning for accessible Longfellowian verse?  And are
> these masses not being served by accessible free versers like Billy
Collins,
> who sells in quantities hardly dreamed of by Auden, Eliot, or Williams?
> Well, show me.
>
> Still, apart from the problem of whether poetry can matter in public life,
> poetry can be a most powerful personal force, i.e. it can and does touch
> individuals in a deep way.  That's the news that stays news.  And, since
I'm
> a teacher by trade, I've very interested in helping individuals open up to
> the art of poetry--free verse and metered, page poetry and oral, old stuff
> and new.  I don't know about big initiatives or large cultural forces, but
I
> do know something about teaching students one by one.
>
> So I guess if I had a "big idea" to suggest for a poet laureate, it would
> definitely be school-related.  Billy Collins's Poetry 180 initiative
strikes
> me as fairly quixotic, essentially harmless and probably ineffectual.  But
I
> think he was on the right track--IF we wish to promote more appreciation
of
> poetry among a larger demographic, we would need to find ways of NOT
turning
> off so many people to the art during their school days.  First, do no
harm.
>
> My sister-in-law doesn't know Gerald Stern from Ron Silliman, and doesn't
> much care.  In that sense, she is definitely not a part of PoBiz, though
she
> is an educated person and quite open to poetry if it speaks to her.  She
> heard Billy Collins on NPR, though, and liked what he wrote enough to go
out
> and purchase a book, and then buy copies as gifts for others.  That's not
a
> large cultural force, true, but it's also not something I sneer at.
>
> Whether and how one might get the non-educated public more interested in
> poetry--well, good luck and let me know how that works out for you.  Merle
> Haggard's or Garth Brooks's songs are probably all the poetry that most
such
> folks are going to pay attention to--and I certainly am not sneering at
> that, either.  Many rooms in the mansion of poetry.
>
>
>
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>      Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>      My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
>
>
> > ----------
> >
> >
> > I think the fact that your sister-in-law reads Collins means she's at
> > least somewhat aware of the PoBiz--which is not identical to its
> > academic wing. But I've been talking, as has Marcus, about people for
> > whom Collins (whose work I often enjoy) might as well be a Martian.
> > Did you know some hunting magazines (especially local rags) print
> > poetry?
> >
> > Michael
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From marcus  Wed Sep  3 13:39:40 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 13:39:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Phenomenal Sales
In-Reply-To: <006801c3723e$52034270$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <3F55EF1C.32648.15E4F6E@localhost>

On 3 Sep 2003 at 13:10, TheOldMole wrote:
> Ever notice how you never see Gerald Stern and Ron Silliman in the same
> place?

Yeah, or come to think of it, Ringo Starr and Yassir Arafat.

M



> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 10:52 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Phenomenal Sales
> 
> 
> > A few more thoughts--less in refutation than rumination. . . .
> >
> > I honestly don't spend a lot of time worrying over the State of Poetry.
> > Guess I'd make a lousy Poet Laureate, assuming that the laureate's job is
> to
> > promote poetry as a large cultural force.  I share the suspicion voiced by
> > many that literary poetry (as opposed to inspirational doggerel, Hallmark
> > sentiments, etc.) is probably never going to be a *large* cultural force.
> > Not much use in lamenting that fact over and over.
> >
> > We all seem to agree that, demographically speaking, most Americans don't
> > read a lot of contemporary poetry--just as most Americans don't read much
> > John Updike or Toni Morrison.  But we'll probably never agree on the
> reasons
> > why, or whether this is a new phenomenon.  I incline to the view that it's
> > not particularly new--that highbrow poetry has always been a relatively
> rare
> > taste-- but I note that no one seems able to bring forth much concrete
> > evidence on the matter.
> >
> > In any case, the argument that poetry has "lost its audience" due to
> willful
> > obscurity, watered-down standards, lack of meter, and so forth--hasn't yet
> > convinced me.  Among other things, there's a chicken-and-egg problem here:
> > most common readers would certainly consider Jorie Graham's poetry to be
> > pretentious gibberish--but are her scant sales figures part of the cause
> or
> > the effect of poetry's disengagement from American public life?  *Are*
> there
> > masses of readers yearning for accessible Longfellowian verse?  And are
> > these masses not being served by accessible free versers like Billy
> Collins,
> > who sells in quantities hardly dreamed of by Auden, Eliot, or Williams?
> > Well, show me.
> >
> > Still, apart from the problem of whether poetry can matter in public life,
> > poetry can be a most powerful personal force, i.e. it can and does touch
> > individuals in a deep way.  That's the news that stays news.  And, since
> I'm
> > a teacher by trade, I've very interested in helping individuals open up to
> > the art of poetry--free verse and metered, page poetry and oral, old stuff
> > and new.  I don't know about big initiatives or large cultural forces, but
> I
> > do know something about teaching students one by one.
> >
> > So I guess if I had a "big idea" to suggest for a poet laureate, it would
> > definitely be school-related.  Billy Collins's Poetry 180 initiative
> strikes
> > me as fairly quixotic, essentially harmless and probably ineffectual.  But
> I
> > think he was on the right track--IF we wish to promote more appreciation
> of
> > poetry among a larger demographic, we would need to find ways of NOT
> turning
> > off so many people to the art during their school days.  First, do no
> harm.
> >
> > My sister-in-law doesn't know Gerald Stern from Ron Silliman, and doesn't
> > much care.  In that sense, she is definitely not a part of PoBiz, though
> she
> > is an educated person and quite open to poetry if it speaks to her.  She
> > heard Billy Collins on NPR, though, and liked what he wrote enough to go
> out
> > and purchase a book, and then buy copies as gifts for others.  That's not
> a
> > large cultural force, true, but it's also not something I sneer at.
> >
> > Whether and how one might get the non-educated public more interested in
> > poetry--well, good luck and let me know how that works out for you.  Merle
> > Haggard's or Garth Brooks's songs are probably all the poetry that most
> such
> > folks are going to pay attention to--and I certainly am not sneering at
> > that, either.  Many rooms in the mansion of poetry.
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================
> > David Graham
> > Professor of English, Ripon College
> > grahamd at ripon.edu
> >      Home Page:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >      My Poetry Library:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >
> > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> > ============================================
> >
> >
> > > ----------
> > >
> > >
> > > I think the fact that your sister-in-law reads Collins means she's at
> > > least somewhat aware of the PoBiz--which is not identical to its
> > > academic wing. But I've been talking, as has Marcus, about people for
> > > whom Collins (whose work I often enjoy) might as well be a Martian.
> > > Did you know some hunting magazines (especially local rags) print
> > > poetry?
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From JforJames  Thu Sep  4 09:10:12 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:10:12 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the wings of poetry
Message-ID: <75.185d99e4.2c8893b4@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/3/03 12:50:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MIM47 at aol.com 
writes:
>  As an art, an indispensible human art, poetry  is not dead, not sick even. 
> It 
>  is asleep. Part of the reason for that is that it was kidnapped, gagged, 
>  bound, and thrown into a closet in the English Departments of many 
colleges 
> and 
>  universities decades ago. Another part of the problem is that in the late 
60'
> s, 
>  New Criticism waved its claws around and insisted that there was one and 
> only 
>  one way to critique, examine, and decide about a poem, the trained 
academic'
> s 
>  way. It was New Criticism that administered the mind-numbing drug to 
poetry. 
>  
>  Then we got Beat, and we got liberated from New Criticism, although 
academia 
> 
>  still maintained its ownership of the LAND OF POETRY (much the way the US 
>  maintained its ownership of Native America). Free verse (vers libre) was 
> supposed 
>  to be a revolution, a new thing, a breaking open. Ha! It is now so status 
> quo 
>  that many poets (exclude the New Formalists, New Expansionists) wouldn't 
> know 
>  a sestina if they tripped over it six times. There is so much flat, 
boring, 
>  sappy syrupy verse out there that we are artistically obese from all the 
> sugar. 
>  It is too easy to read that crap and call it poetry. And we do our 
citizens 
> a 
>  disservice in assuming that is all they can handle. They can handle 
complex 
>  subjects written about in interesting ways that are not obscure. The 
reading 
> 
>  public simply feels excluded. 
>  
>  What is very wrong, and why the average citizen feels excluded from the 
>  po-scene, is that there is very little in the way of formal underpinning 
in 
> much of 
>  the free verse today. Many professors go so far as to tell their graduate 
>  students to stop writing in form when they encounter it. I think it is 
> because 
>  they themselves didn't get schooled in the basics (other than recognizing 
> the 
>  beats in a line or the most rudimentary meter). What the general public (
> reading 
>  public) wants is a sense of the underlying structure, even if they don't 
> know 
>  what that structure is. It is not Hallmark they want, it is music. Most 
kids 
> 
>  can recite the words to dozens of their favorite songs, but believe they 
can'
> t 
>  learn to recite poems. Bah! Take a gander at places like sonoma Country 
Day 
>  School (CA) or St. John's Prep HS (MA) and find memorization and 
recitation 
>  alive and well. What are these kids memorizing? reciting? poems that have 
a 
>  metrical base! Look at a country like Wales where poetry is part of daily 
> life and 
>  there are huge national festivals where folks recite (farmers, sheep 
herders,
>  
>  housewives, students, all reciting along with "professional' poets). 
>  
>  We can fix this problem. We need to keep at it. We need to expose kids to 
>  poems and to the process of writing and reading poetry. I was teaching in 
a 
> home 
>  school enrichment program three years ago and decided to do "beginning 
> poetry 
>  analysis" with the 6-9 grade class (12 students). By the time I was at the 
> end 
>  of the 14 weeks, these kids could distinguish internal rhyme (end-stopped 
>  too, tho they grew to prefer the more subtle rhymes). they could tap out 
> meter, 
>  and could give the surface meaning and another layer of meaning in the 
poems 
> we 
>  studied. Iused Naomi Shihab Nye's anthology, Under The Same Sky so they 
got 
>  poems from all over the globe. The most wonderful thing (cuz I KNEW the 
kids 
> 
>  would be able to do it) was that by course end, 10 of the parents were 
also 
>  attending and had learned how to appreciate poems. AND..all of the 
families 
> were 
>  reading poetry together at home.
>  
>  So it is possible and likely that we can make a difference. We need to dig 
> in 
>  and do it.
Carol, I applaud your work as a teacher in the trenches of poetry. 
But I disagree with a good deal of your post. I don't really see the
evidence that poetry is asleep. Far from it. It seems to be bouncing
off the walls. Moving in every direction at once. Thousands of books
published each years. Journals galore n print and on the web. Email lists
and portals. Poetry slams and favorite poem recitations. You can't
swing a dead cat (apologies to Smart's Geoffrey) without hitting a poet
Poetry may be a fragmented. It may be an unruly plurality in search of 
some semblance of consensus, but certainly it's not sleeping.

Also, New Criticism was not such a bad thing. Certainly several 
movements have held sway in academia since its rise and fall 
from fashion. Close reading can still be a a valuable tool. And how 
could we do without the ideas, insight and analysis of Blackmur, 
Eliot, Empson, Richards, Tate, etc. They were a smart crew, 
and they pretty much invented literary criticism as we know it

The Beat movement was indeed a breath of fresh air. Free verse
of course proceeded it. But now the seams are starting to show 
in your argument: You think free verse is sloppy. That poets who 
practice free verse can't get their heads around a sestina. Here's 
a Bosh! to answer your Hah! What is too fear about a sestina? 
If someone tripped over one it must have been a dead one (for most
are merely inert exercises).  

I don't dispute that most people by nature are attracted to rhyme and meter,
and that those elements are aids to memorizing poems. But does that
give formalism a special claim to primacy in the art of poetry? I don't 
believe
so. If it has a special claim it should make it. It should be capable of 
convincing more poets and the readership of its efficacy and enduring
qualities. As it happens I just finished, Louis Menand's _The Metaphysical
Club_. Near the end he brings up Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s famous
defense of free speech, "the marketplace of ideas." I think that the poetry
world is very close to a perfect market system. That is, there is very
little barrier to entry. (It costs little to publish a book or journal; and 
even
less to put up a website). No one institution or individual commands a
dominant marketshare.There is little economic gain available so it 
attracts many homegrown and local purveyors and there are no 
conglomerates or moneyed interests attempting to dominate this market. 
Journals, presses, websites including blogs spring up and fail every day. 
In short, it's a perfect space/place, in a true and dispassionate Darwinian 
fashion, for the "rightness" and "efficacy" of formalism, or free verse, or 
language poetry (or any of the myriad sub-groups that Bob Grumman has 
mapped) to assert itself, to hold sway, to attract a larger audience.
Free verse is not a menace to poetry, as Marcus suggested; free verse 
is an only a manifestation of poetry. It will die out if poets no longer find
it useful or efficacious to their ends: As long as free verse finds readers, 
no matter how few, it will persist  
Finnegan   



From tadrichards  Thu Sep  4 09:41:31 2003
From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:41:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the wings of poetry
Message-ID: <410-2200394413413165@M2W072.mail2web.com>

That explains why I keep getting hit by dead cats.



Original Message:
-----------------
From:  JforJames at aol.com
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:10:12 EDT
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: the wings of poetry


In a message dated 9/3/03 12:50:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MIM47 at aol.com 
writes:
>  As an art, an indispensible human art, poetry  is not dead, not sick
even. 
> It 
>  is asleep. Part of the reason for that is that it was kidnapped, gagged, 
>  bound, and thrown into a closet in the English Departments of many 
colleges 
> and 
>  universities decades ago. Another part of the problem is that in the
late 
60'
> s, 
>  New Criticism waved its claws around and insisted that there was one and 
> only 
>  one way to critique, examine, and decide about a poem, the trained 
academic'
> s 
>  way. It was New Criticism that administered the mind-numbing drug to 
poetry. 
>  
>  Then we got Beat, and we got liberated from New Criticism, although 
academia 
> 
>  still maintained its ownership of the LAND OF POETRY (much the way the
US 
>  maintained its ownership of Native America). Free verse (vers libre) was 
> supposed 
>  to be a revolution, a new thing, a breaking open. Ha! It is now so
status 
> quo 
>  that many poets (exclude the New Formalists, New Expansionists) wouldn't 
> know 
>  a sestina if they tripped over it six times. There is so much flat, 
boring, 
>  sappy syrupy verse out there that we are artistically obese from all the 
> sugar. 
>  It is too easy to read that crap and call it poetry. And we do our 
citizens 
> a 
>  disservice in assuming that is all they can handle. They can handle 
complex 
>  subjects written about in interesting ways that are not obscure. The 
reading 
> 
>  public simply feels excluded. 
>  
>  What is very wrong, and why the average citizen feels excluded from the 
>  po-scene, is that there is very little in the way of formal underpinning 
in 
> much of 
>  the free verse today. Many professors go so far as to tell their
graduate 
>  students to stop writing in form when they encounter it. I think it is 
> because 
>  they themselves didn't get schooled in the basics (other than
recognizing 
> the 
>  beats in a line or the most rudimentary meter). What the general public (
> reading 
>  public) wants is a sense of the underlying structure, even if they don't 
> know 
>  what that structure is. It is not Hallmark they want, it is music. Most 
kids 
> 
>  can recite the words to dozens of their favorite songs, but believe they 
can'
> t 
>  learn to recite poems. Bah! Take a gander at places like sonoma Country 
Day 
>  School (CA) or St. John's Prep HS (MA) and find memorization and 
recitation 
>  alive and well. What are these kids memorizing? reciting? poems that
have 
a 
>  metrical base! Look at a country like Wales where poetry is part of
daily 
> life and 
>  there are huge national festivals where folks recite (farmers, sheep 
herders,
>  
>  housewives, students, all reciting along with "professional' poets). 
>  
>  We can fix this problem. We need to keep at it. We need to expose kids
to 
>  poems and to the process of writing and reading poetry. I was teaching
in 
a 
> home 
>  school enrichment program three years ago and decided to do "beginning 
> poetry 
>  analysis" with the 6-9 grade class (12 students). By the time I was at
the 
> end 
>  of the 14 weeks, these kids could distinguish internal rhyme
(end-stopped 
>  too, tho they grew to prefer the more subtle rhymes). they could tap out 
> meter, 
>  and could give the surface meaning and another layer of meaning in the 
poems 
> we 
>  studied. Iused Naomi Shihab Nye's anthology, Under The Same Sky so they 
got 
>  poems from all over the globe. The most wonderful thing (cuz I KNEW the 
kids 
> 
>  would be able to do it) was that by course end, 10 of the parents were 
also 
>  attending and had learned how to appreciate poems. AND..all of the 
families 
> were 
>  reading poetry together at home.
>  
>  So it is possible and likely that we can make a difference. We need to
dig 
> in 
>  and do it.
Carol, I applaud your work as a teacher in the trenches of poetry. 
But I disagree with a good deal of your post. I don't really see the
evidence that poetry is asleep. Far from it. It seems to be bouncing
off the walls. Moving in every direction at once. Thousands of books
published each years. Journals galore n print and on the web. Email lists
and portals. Poetry slams and favorite poem recitations. You can't
swing a dead cat (apologies to Smart's Geoffrey) without hitting a poet
Poetry may be a fragmented. It may be an unruly plurality in search of 
some semblance of consensus, but certainly it's not sleeping.

Also, New Criticism was not such a bad thing. Certainly several 
movements have held sway in academia since its rise and fall 
from fashion. Close reading can still be a a valuable tool. And how 
could we do without the ideas, insight and analysis of Blackmur, 
Eliot, Empson, Richards, Tate, etc. They were a smart crew, 
and they pretty much invented literary criticism as we know it

The Beat movement was indeed a breath of fresh air. Free verse
of course proceeded it. But now the seams are starting to show 
in your argument: You think free verse is sloppy. That poets who 
practice free verse can't get their heads around a sestina. Here's 
a Bosh! to answer your Hah! What is too fear about a sestina? 
If someone tripped over one it must have been a dead one (for most
are merely inert exercises).  

I don't dispute that most people by nature are attracted to rhyme and meter,
and that those elements are aids to memorizing poems. But does that
give formalism a special claim to primacy in the art of poetry? I don't 
believe
so. If it has a special claim it should make it. It should be capable of 
convincing more poets and the readership of its efficacy and enduring
qualities. As it happens I just finished, Louis Menand's _The Metaphysical
Club_. Near the end he brings up Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s famous
defense of free speech, "the marketplace of ideas." I think that the poetry
world is very close to a perfect market system. That is, there is very
little barrier to entry. (It costs little to publish a book or journal; and 
even
less to put up a website). No one institution or individual commands a
dominant marketshare.There is little economic gain available so it 
attracts many homegrown and local purveyors and there are no 
conglomerates or moneyed interests attempting to dominate this market. 
Journals, presses, websites including blogs spring up and fail every day. 
In short, it's a perfect space/place, in a true and dispassionate Darwinian 
fashion, for the "rightness" and "efficacy" of formalism, or free verse, or 
language poetry (or any of the myriad sub-groups that Bob Grumman has 
mapped) to assert itself, to hold sway, to attract a larger audience.
Free verse is not a menace to poetry, as Marcus suggested; free verse 
is an only a manifestation of poetry. It will die out if poets no longer
find
it useful or efficacious to their ends: As long as free verse finds
readers, 
no matter how few, it will persist  
Finnegan   
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .






From JforJames  Thu Sep  4 11:36:10 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:36:10 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kim's Notes From The Divided Country
Message-ID: <26.3e46c915.2c88b5ea@aol.com>

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0336/chen.php

Poet Kim hits some high-and low- Notes.

Notes From The Divided Country 
By Suji Kwock Kim 
Louisiana State University 
74 pp., $15.95

Suji Kwock Kim's Whitman Award-winning collection arrives at a moment when 
many Asian American poets bristle at the redundancy and "ghettoization" of 
ethnic poetries in American letters. Kim's Notes From the Divided Country opens 
with an almost parodic, mythic retelling of the poet's conception in the 
"labyrinth of mother's body."...



From JforJames  Thu Sep  4 11:38:19 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:38:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Refractory Responses" by Elizabeth Robinson
Message-ID: <54.185b7abe.2c88b66b@aol.com>

Subj:    "Refractory Responses" by Elizabeth Robinson
Date:   9/2/03 5:19:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   guy.bennett at sbcglobal.net (Guy Bennett)

Dear Reader,

I am pleased to announce that "Refractory Responses," a new work by
Elizabeth Robinson, has just been published by Seeing Eye Books.

The poems of Refractory (meaning obstinate but also irreducible) Responses
(as in answering yet also reacting) riff off Ebbe Borregard's "Sketches for
13 Sonnets," creating an open-ended conversation that both evokes and
elides dialogue with the poet that inspired them, the sonnet form that
subtends them, and the reader that refracts and completes them.

"Refractory Responses" is available as part of this year's Seeing Eye Books
series, which also includes work by Nicole Brossard, Jen Hofer, and Paul
Vangelisti. A subscription to the series is $25.00. If you would like to
subscribe, please email me for details.

If you are already a subscriber - thank you! - and my apologies for sending
you this note. If you would like more information about Seeing Eye Books or
would like to be on its mailing list, please respond to this message with
your address. A PDF version of our catalogue is available via e-mail upon
request.

If you'd like to be removed from this list just let me know, and my
apologies in advance for the inconvenience.

Best wishes,

Guy Bennett



From JforJames  Thu Sep  4 12:36:12 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:36:12 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] MPoetry3 Project
Message-ID: <d3.21cb5be0.2c88c3fc@aol.com>

As poet laureate, my big idea would be for the 
Library of Congress to establish a vast website 
catalog of downloadable MP3 (& DVD) files,
making available in one place many hard to 
access recordings (both audio & video) of poets 
& critics giving readings, interviews and lectures. 
1) Begin by consolidating and digitally converting 
those recordings that are in the public domain or 
available through various public archives. 
2) Then secure licensing arrangements from 
other sources who own the rights to certain recordings. 

As many as possible of these downloadable 
recordings should be made available free of charge. 
Others could be made available for a reasonable 
fee (perhaps subsidized to some extent by the LoC)
on per download basis. As an added service, a user 
of this system could click on & select his/her own 
mix of various recordings. Enter a credit card number, 
and, voila, within a week be mailed a burned CD.

There is a  tremendous amount of recorded material,
spread about in various places...
Lannan Foundation, New Letters on Air, SFSU
Poetry Center, UK Poetry Library, former Watershed 
Foundation, Caedmon, Copper Canyon, Poems to 
a Listener series, etc. 
Not to mention all of the uncatalogued materials:
Recordings made by reading series organizers, 
local radio station studio recordings and interviews,
writers conferences and private taping sessions, etc.
Many of these recordings languishing in boxes 
and file cabinets, often in decaying media forms. 
Much of it would free for the taking; though permission 
should be solicited from writers or their estates, 
whenever possible. So the two goals would be
"preservation" and "ease of availability" to poets, 
scholars, teachers & students.
Finnegan



From kpaul  Thu Sep  4 12:48:35 2003
From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:48:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] MPoetry3 Project
In-Reply-To: <d3.21cb5be0.2c88c3fc@aol.com>
References: <d3.21cb5be0.2c88c3fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030904114753.X80785@kpaul.spinweb.net>

Very good idea. Kinda takes Pinsky's idea a little futher...

Heck, let's do it w/out being Poet Laureate. I'm willing to donate time
and technical experience...

-kpaul

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> As poet laureate, my big idea would be for the
> Library of Congress to establish a vast website
> catalog of downloadable MP3 (& DVD) files,
> making available in one place many hard to
> access recordings (both audio & video) of poets
> & critics giving readings, interviews and lectures.
> 1) Begin by consolidating and digitally converting
> those recordings that are in the public domain or
> available through various public archives.
> 2) Then secure licensing arrangements from
> other sources who own the rights to certain recordings.
>
> As many as possible of these downloadable
> recordings should be made available free of charge.
> Others could be made available for a reasonable
> fee (perhaps subsidized to some extent by the LoC)
> on per download basis. As an added service, a user
> of this system could click on & select his/her own
> mix of various recordings. Enter a credit card number,
> and, voila, within a week be mailed a burned CD.
>
> There is a  tremendous amount of recorded material,
> spread about in various places...
> Lannan Foundation, New Letters on Air, SFSU
> Poetry Center, UK Poetry Library, former Watershed
> Foundation, Caedmon, Copper Canyon, Poems to
> a Listener series, etc.
> Not to mention all of the uncatalogued materials:
> Recordings made by reading series organizers,
> local radio station studio recordings and interviews,
> writers conferences and private taping sessions, etc.
> Many of these recordings languishing in boxes
> and file cabinets, often in decaying media forms.
> Much of it would free for the taking; though permission
> should be solicited from writers or their estates,
> whenever possible. So the two goals would be
> "preservation" and "ease of availability" to poets,
> scholars, teachers & students.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From robin.hamilton2  Thu Sep  4 16:36:57 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 21:36:57 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Painting Without Numbers
Message-ID: <004e01c37324$496c7f50$d4998051@MyPC>

The first formal production from:

            ... The Phantom Rooster Press ...

     David Bircumshaw, _Painting without Numbers_

ISBN:  0-954-1966-0-0

... is available.

80 pp, 100 gm paper, perfect bound, plus 160 gm wrapper (cover
illustration).

?5 / ?8  (including postage) for UK/cheese-eating surrender-monkeys.

Other Places (Canada, USA[merica], Australia, New Zealand, Atlantis) -- 
payment by negociation.

I think I can receive money via PayPal, but I haven't tried yet, so the
first to pay me by that means gets a reduced-price lifetime subscription to
all future texts from PRP.

Send money to:

        Robin Hamilton
        69 Rydal Ave.,
        Loughborough,
        Leics.
        LE11 3PY

... a cheque (for ?5/ ?8) made out to "Robin Hamilton" at the above.

For the more sensible among you, simply email robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com
your snailmail address, and I'll post-off a copy.  Those who do not
thereafter pay will be Named and Shamed (if I can work out how to do this).

More than enough.  Let the orders roll ...

Fantomas

We have met the enemy and he is us





From bobgrumman  Thu Sep  4 17:17:32 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:17:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the wings of poetry
References: <75.185d99e4.2c8893b4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00db01c37329$f5513860$a6dafea9@j1c1k6>

Thanks for the following, James.  Saves me the trouble fo responding.  It
says pretty much what I would have.

--Bob G.


> Carol, I applaud your work as a teacher in the trenches of poetry.
> But I disagree with a good deal of your post. I don't really see the
> evidence that poetry is asleep. Far from it. It seems to be bouncing
> off the walls. Moving in every direction at once. Thousands of books
> published each years. Journals galore n print and on the web. Email lists
> and portals. Poetry slams and favorite poem recitations. You can't
> swing a dead cat (apologies to Smart's Geoffrey) without hitting a poet
> Poetry may be a fragmented. It may be an unruly plurality in search of
> some semblance of consensus, but certainly it's not sleeping.
>
> Also, New Criticism was not such a bad thing. Certainly several
> movements have held sway in academia since its rise and fall
> from fashion. Close reading can still be a a valuable tool. And how
> could we do without the ideas, insight and analysis of Blackmur,
> Eliot, Empson, Richards, Tate, etc. They were a smart crew,
> and they pretty much invented literary criticism as we know it
>
> The Beat movement was indeed a breath of fresh air. Free verse
> of course proceeded it. But now the seams are starting to show
> in your argument: You think free verse is sloppy. That poets who
> practice free verse can't get their heads around a sestina. Here's
> a Bosh! to answer your Hah! What is too fear about a sestina?
> If someone tripped over one it must have been a dead one (for most
> are merely inert exercises).
>
> I don't dispute that most people by nature are attracted to rhyme and
meter,
> and that those elements are aids to memorizing poems. But does that
> give formalism a special claim to primacy in the art of poetry? I don't
> believe
> so. If it has a special claim it should make it. It should be capable of
> convincing more poets and the readership of its efficacy and enduring
> qualities. As it happens I just finished, Louis Menand's _The Metaphysical
> Club_. Near the end he brings up Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.'s famous
> defense of free speech, "the marketplace of ideas." I think that the
poetry
> world is very close to a perfect market system. That is, there is very
> little barrier to entry. (It costs little to publish a book or journal;
and
> even
> less to put up a website). No one institution or individual commands a
> dominant marketshare.There is little economic gain available so it
> attracts many homegrown and local purveyors and there are no
> conglomerates or moneyed interests attempting to dominate this market.
> Journals, presses, websites including blogs spring up and fail every day.
> In short, it's a perfect space/place, in a true and dispassionate
Darwinian
> fashion, for the "rightness" and "efficacy" of formalism, or free verse,
or
> language poetry (or any of the myriad sub-groups that Bob Grumman has
> mapped) to assert itself, to hold sway, to attract a larger audience.
> Free verse is not a menace to poetry, as Marcus suggested; free verse
> is an only a manifestation of poetry. It will die out if poets no longer
find
> it useful or efficacious to their ends: As long as free verse finds
readers,
> no matter how few, it will persist
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From mandolin  Thu Sep  4 17:22:42 2003
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:22:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] shameless self promotion
Message-ID: <EB262EA8-DF1D-11D7-B6A8-000A95E985A4@mac.com>

There's the first of a two-part interview with me at 
http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/001024.html#001024




From bobgrumman  Thu Sep  4 17:24:00 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 17:24:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] MPoetry3 Project
References: <d3.21cb5be0.2c88c3fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <012f01c3732a$dc383e40$a6dafea9@j1c1k6>

> As poet laureate, my big idea would be for the
> Library of Congress to establish a vast website
> catalog of downloadable MP3 (& DVD) files,
> making available in one place many hard to
> access recordings (both audio & video) of poets
> & critics giving readings, interviews and lectures.
> 1) Begin by consolidating and digitally converting
> those recordings that are in the public domain or
> available through various public archives.
> 2) Then secure licensing arrangements from
> other sources who own the rights to certain recordings.
>
> As many as possible of these downloadable
> recordings should be made available free of charge.
> Others could be made available for a reasonable
> fee (perhaps subsidized to some extent by the LoC)
> on per download basis. As an added service, a user
> of this system could click on & select his/her own
> mix of various recordings. Enter a credit card number,
> and, voila, within a week be mailed a burned CD.
>
> There is a  tremendous amount of recorded material,
> spread about in various places...
> Lannan Foundation, New Letters on Air, SFSU
> Poetry Center, UK Poetry Library, former Watershed
> Foundation, Caedmon, Copper Canyon, Poems to
> a Listener series, etc.
> Not to mention all of the uncatalogued materials:
> Recordings made by reading series organizers,
> local radio station studio recordings and interviews,
> writers conferences and private taping sessions, etc.
> Many of these recordings languishing in boxes
> and file cabinets, often in decaying media forms.
> Much of it would free for the taking; though permission
> should be solicited from writers or their estates,
> whenever possible. So the two goals would be
> "preservation" and "ease of availability" to poets,
> scholars, teachers & students.
> Finnegan


Better would be to CREATE a library of recordings of poets--or make studios
and technicians available for the recording of poets (for a small fee)--so
we don't end up with nothing but recordings of one school of poetry.

--Bob G.




From tadrichards  Thu Sep  4 20:20:03 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 20:20:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] MPoetry3 Project
References: <d3.21cb5be0.2c88c3fc@aol.com> <20030904114753.X80785@kpaul.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <004801c37343$73f73610$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Jim - I like this one.


Tad




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "kpaul mallasch" <kpaul at mallasch.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] MPoetry3 Project


> Very good idea. Kinda takes Pinsky's idea a little futher...
> 
> Heck, let's do it w/out being Poet Laureate. I'm willing to donate time
> and technical experience...
> 
> -kpaul
> 
> On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> > As poet laureate, my big idea would be for the
> > Library of Congress to establish a vast website
> > catalog of downloadable MP3 (& DVD) files,
> > making available in one place many hard to
> > access recordings (both audio & video) of poets
> > & critics giving readings, interviews and lectures.
> > 1) Begin by consolidating and digitally converting
> > those recordings that are in the public domain or
> > available through various public archives.
> > 2) Then secure licensing arrangements from
> > other sources who own the rights to certain recordings.
> >
> > As many as possible of these downloadable
> > recordings should be made available free of charge.
> > Others could be made available for a reasonable
> > fee (perhaps subsidized to some extent by the LoC)
> > on per download basis. As an added service, a user
> > of this system could click on & select his/her own
> > mix of various recordings. Enter a credit card number,
> > and, voila, within a week be mailed a burned CD.
> >
> > There is a  tremendous amount of recorded material,
> > spread about in various places...
> > Lannan Foundation, New Letters on Air, SFSU
> > Poetry Center, UK Poetry Library, former Watershed
> > Foundation, Caedmon, Copper Canyon, Poems to
> > a Listener series, etc.
> > Not to mention all of the uncatalogued materials:
> > Recordings made by reading series organizers,
> > local radio station studio recordings and interviews,
> > writers conferences and private taping sessions, etc.
> > Many of these recordings languishing in boxes
> > and file cabinets, often in decaying media forms.
> > Much of it would free for the taking; though permission
> > should be solicited from writers or their estates,
> > whenever possible. So the two goals would be
> > "preservation" and "ease of availability" to poets,
> > scholars, teachers & students.
> > Finnegan
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From halvard  Fri Sep  5 09:09:17 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:09:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Alan Dugan (1923-2003)
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEOOHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Memorial Service for the Invasion Beach
Where the Vacation in the Flesh Is Over

I see that there it is on the beach. It is
ahead of me and I walk toward it: its
following vultures and contemptible dogs
are with it, and I walk toward it. If,
in the approach to it, I turn my back
to it, then I walk backwards: I
approach it as a limit. Even if I fall
to hands and knees, I crawl to it.
Backwards or forwards I approach it.

There is the land on one hand, rising, and
the ocean on the other, falling away;
what the sky does, I can not look to see,
but it's around, as ever, all around.
The courteous vultures move away in groups
like functionaries. The dogs circle and stare
like working police. One wants a heel
and gets it. I approach it, concentrating so
on not approaching it, going so far away
that when I get there I am sideways like
the crab, too limited by carapace to say:

"Oh here I am arrived, all; yours today."
No: kneeling and facing away, I will
fall over backwards in intensity of life
and lie convulsed, downed struggling,
sideways even, and should a vulture ask
an eye as its aperitif, I grant it,
glad for the moment wrestling by a horse
whose belly has been hollowed from the rear,
who's eyeless. The wild dog trapped in its ribs
grins as it eats its way to freedom. Not
conquered outwardly, and after rising once,
I fall away inside, and see the sky around
rush out away into the vulture's craw
and barely can not hear them calling, "Here's one."

--Alan Dugan

fr. *Poems Seven: New and Complete Poetry*
[New York: Seven Stories Press, 2001]

and in *Poets of World War II*, ed. Harvey Shapiro
[The Library of America: American Poets Project, 2003]


Hal                

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From JforJames  Fri Sep  5 09:26:04 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:26:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dugan obit
Message-ID: <4f.33b95a6b.2c89e8ec@aol.com>

Alan Dugan, 80, Barbed Poet of Daily Life's Profundities, Dies
By DOUGLAS MARTIN
New York Times, September 5, 2003 

lan Dugan, a Pulitzer Prize-winning poet whose ironic and unsentimental verse 
pondered the challenge of finding freedom and purpose in moments of ordinary 
life, died on Wednesday in Hyannis, Mass. He was 80, and lived in Truro, Mass.

The cause was pneumonia, which followed many health problems in recent years, 
said Judith Shahn, his wife. 

Mr. Dugan's first book of poetry, in 1962, won the Pulitzer Prize and the 
National Book Award. The last of his nine books of poems, in 2001, won another 
National Book Award. Other honors included a Rome Prize, Guggenheim and 
Rockefeller Fellowships and, in January, the Lannan Foundation Award, which carried a 
$125,000 honorarium.

In a review of Mr. Dugan's "Poems Seven" (Seven Stories Press, 2001) in The 
New York Times Book Review, Robert Pinsky said Mr. Dugan could "set a 
glittering barb into every phrase."

His language included invective, vulgar slang and scatological terms. Even 
his titles were provocative: "The Aesthetics of Circumcision" and "Funeral 
Oration for a Mouse" were titles in "Poems Seven." 

Another work in that book referred to an earlier collection of his, saying, 
"You'll find in my Collected Poems, the palliative answer! to your stupid 
questions."

Mr. Dugan's tone was compared to that of the local bartender, though a 
particularly eloquent one. His themes range from the onerous need to make money to 
bad jobs to masturbation to the problem of how much to drink. Larger 
metaphysical issues swim through his verses like sharks, and death is seldom far away.

"His poems usually communicate small perceptions appropriate to the lives of 
small people, so that we listen not because of any glittering eye but because 
we feel we should," said Contemporary Poets, a standard reference work.

In Mr. Dugan's second book, "Poems Two" (Yale, 1963), the work "Elegy" shows 
how a few words can seem to suggest a huge, sad story:

I know but will not tell

you, Aunt Irene, why there

are soapsuds in the whiskey:

Uncle Robert had to have 

A drink while shaving.

Alan Dugan, an only child, was born on Feb. 12, 1923, in Brooklyn. His father 
sold nuts and bolts, and when sales were good the family lived in Queens. In 
poorer times they were in Brooklyn, Mr. Dugan told The Boston Globe in 2001.

In Queens he worked on the student newspaper at Jamaica High School, from 
which he graduated. He wrote poetry surreptitiously because he thought it was for 
"sissies," his wife said.

But he could not ignore "the unconscious voice dictating the poems," he told 
National Public Radio in 2001. He said that he always heard the same voice 
that he heard when he was 16, and he always thought that he was 16 when he heard 
it.

After enrolling in Queens College in 1941 he published his first poems in the 
college literary magazine. He won the Queens College Poetry Prize in 1943.

He was drafted into the Army during World War II and served in the Pacific as 
a B-29 engine mechanic, and he found time to write poetry at a makeshift 
desk. He began to reject his earlier models, T. S. Eliot and E. E. Cummings, and 
became fascinated with William Carlos Williams, a poet to whom critics often 
likened Mr. Dugan.

He went to Olivet College in Michigan on the G.I. Bill and met Ms. Shahn, an 
artist whose father was the painter Ben Shahn. Ms. Shahn said she and Mr. 
Dugan left Olivet after a student strike over the firing of a leftist professor 
whom they supported. They went to what was then Mexico City College, from which 
Mr. Dugan graduated.

Later they moved to Manhattan, where they married to avoid eviction, despite 
marriage being against their socialist principles. Ms. Shahn is Mr. Dugan's 
only immediate survivor.

He worked in a staple factory and an advertising firm, and for a while the 
couple owned a greeting-card business. When Mr. Dugan won his first National 
Book Award, Ms. Shahn said that he was in his third year working in a factory 
where he made plastic vaginas used to demonstrate diaphragm insertion.

In 1960 Mr. Dugan won a Yale Series of Younger Poets Award, which led to Yale 
University Press printing his book "Poems," for which he won the Pulitzer.

In that book's introduction, Dudley Fitts, the poet and author, wrote: "I am 
moved chiefly by the plainness of Mr. Dugan's themes and by his nuances of 
imagery, phrasing, run and rhythm. The cast of mind is hard, yet the detail is 
often wonderfully ingenuous and tender."

Mr. Dugan's technical virtuosity in that first book included one poem, "On 
the Elk, Unwitnessed," in which the iambic pentameter of Greek tragedy was 
articulated into contemporary speech rhythms.

Mr. Dugan held numerous teaching positions, including ones at Sarah Lawrence, 
Connecticut College and the University of Colorado. He and his wife used his 
fellowships to live and work in Rome, Paris, Mexico and South America.

At home on Cape Cod, he taught poetry workshops at the Truro Center for the 
Arts at Castle Hill, and was a founder of the Fine Arts Work Center in 
Provincetown.

Some critics complained that Mr. Dugan's habitual returning to the same 
prosaic themes in the same style grew tiresome. Even all of his seven principal 
books had the same title, "Poems." Each "Poems" was followed by a number, in the 
order that the books were done. Sometimes the number was spelled out, and 
sometimes it was a numeral.

But many readers relished Mr. Dugan's ability to slice to the bone. In "Poems 
Seven," his last book, "Love Song: I and Thou" illustrates this incisiveness:

I can nail my left palm

to the left-hand crosspiece but

I can't do everything myself.

I need a hand to nail the right,

A help, a love, a you, a wife.


  (New York Times, September 5, 2003 )  



From JforJames  Fri Sep  5 09:46:52 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:46:52 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] MPoetry3 Project
Message-ID: <6e.3180865f.2c89edcc@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/4/03 5:26:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> Better would be to CREATE a library of recordings of poets--or make studios
>  and technicians available for the recording of poets (for a small fee)--so
>  we don't end up with nothing but recordings of one school of poetry.
>  
Bob,  their is certainly a broad range of stuff already available. It would 
up to the
director of such a project to make sure the website truly covered the 
terrritory. 
For example, I think the holdings at SFSU Poetry Center and Poetry Center in 
Bestheda MD (repository of the Watershed tapes) would not overlap much. 
The Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics has recordings not likely
to be similar with the recordings released by Caedmon or Cooper Canyon, 
and so forth. Then, if you can get access to private archives or the archives
of local literary organizers, you're talking about an immense trove of 
material
to select from. The hard part would organizing these material, editing it in 
certain cases, and making certain the level of recording quality was decent.
But I would agree that the ideal project should be a broad a representation 
as possible, and it worth putting in some resources to going out and filling in 
the significant blanks.
Finnegan



From JforJames  Fri Sep  5 10:10:11 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:10:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the wings of poetry
Message-ID: <1cf.1075463b.2c89f343@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/4/03 5:19:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

>  It
>  says pretty much what I would have.
>  
>  --Bob G.
I'm sure you would have said it without so many typos/mistakes...like
this one below: of course, I meant "preceded." I hope I don't inadvertently
rankle those on the list who suffered thru so many years teaching 
English Comp. 
Finnegan
 Free verse
>  > of course proceeded it.



From halvard  Fri Sep  5 10:14:51 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:14:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] MPoetry3 Project
In-Reply-To: <6e.3180865f.2c89edcc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEPCHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Why not take all this up with Google? If they can track down
every *image* on the web, why shouldn't they do the same
for sound files? Eh? Tell me true. I mean, why shouldn't
sound files come up as a single category, with separate
subcategories for music, poetry, etc.,--of course with poetry
broken down into every school that Bob's managed to 
define?

Hal          "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam."

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
 
{    > Better would be to CREATE a library of recordings of poets--or make studios
{    >  and technicians available for the recording of poets (for a small fee)--so
{    >  we don't end up with nothing but recordings of one school of poetry.
{    >  
{    Bob,  their is certainly a broad range of stuff already available. It would 
{    up to the
{    director of such a project to make sure the website truly covered the 
{    terrritory. 
{    For example, I think the holdings at SFSU Poetry Center and Poetry Center in 
{    Bestheda MD (repository of the Watershed tapes) would not overlap much. 
{    The Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics has recordings not likely
{    to be similar with the recordings released by Caedmon or Cooper Canyon, 
{    and so forth. Then, if you can get access to private archives or the archives
{    of local literary organizers, you're talking about an immense trove of 
{    material
{    to select from. The hard part would organizing these material, editing it in 
{    certain cases, and making certain the level of recording quality was decent.
{    But I would agree that the ideal project should be a broad a representation 
{    as possible, and it worth putting in some resources to going out and filling in 
{    the significant blanks.
{    Finnegan
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    




From grahamd  Fri Sep  5 10:16:15 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:16:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Dugan
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEOOHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BB7E04DF.4243%grahamd@ripon.edu>

Portrait From the Infantry

He smelled bad and was red-eyed with the miseries
of being scared while sleepless when he said
this:  "I want a private woman, peace and quiet,
and some green stuff in my pocket. Fuck
the rest."  Pity the underwear and socks,
long burnt, of an accomplished murderer,
oh God, of germans and replacements, who
refused three stripes to keep his B.A.R.,
who fought, fought not to fight some days
like any good small businessman of war,
and dug more holes than an outside dog
to modify some Freudian's thesis: "No
man can stand three hundred days
of fear of mutilation and death."  What he
theorized was a joke:  "To keep a tight
asshole, dry socks and a you-deep hole
with you at all times."  Afterwards,
met in a sports shirt with a round wife, he was
the clean slave of a daughter, a power brake
and beer.  To me, he seemed diminished
in his dream, or else enlarged, who knows?,
by its accomplishment: personal life
wrung from mass issues in a bloody time
and lived out hiddenly.  Aside from sound
baseball talk, his only interesting remark
was, in pointing to his wife's belly, "If
he comes out left foot first" (the way
you Forward March!), "I am going to stuff
him back up."  "Isn't he awful?" she said.

--Alan Dugan



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


> From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:09:17 -0400
> To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Alan Dugan (1923-2003)
> 
> 
> Memorial Service for the Invasion Beach
> Where the Vacation in the Flesh Is Over
> 
> I see that there it is on the beach. It is
> ahead of me and I walk toward it: its
> following vultures and contemptible dogs
> are with it, and I walk toward it. If,
> in the approach to it, I turn my back
> to it, then I walk backwards: I
> approach it as a limit. Even if I fall
> to hands and knees, I crawl to it.
> Backwards or forwards I approach it.
> 
> There is the land on one hand, rising, and
> the ocean on the other, falling away;
> what the sky does, I can not look to see,
> but it's around, as ever, all around.
> The courteous vultures move away in groups
> like functionaries. The dogs circle and stare
> like working police. One wants a heel
> and gets it. I approach it, concentrating so
> on not approaching it, going so far away
> that when I get there I am sideways like
> the crab, too limited by carapace to say:
> 
> "Oh here I am arrived, all; yours today."
> No: kneeling and facing away, I will
> fall over backwards in intensity of life
> and lie convulsed, downed struggling,
> sideways even, and should a vulture ask
> an eye as its aperitif, I grant it,
> glad for the moment wrestling by a horse
> whose belly has been hollowed from the rear,
> who's eyeless. The wild dog trapped in its ribs
> grins as it eats its way to freedom. Not
> conquered outwardly, and after rising once,
> I fall away inside, and see the sky around
> rush out away into the vulture's craw
> and barely can not hear them calling, "Here's one."
> 
> --Alan Dugan
> 
> fr. *Poems Seven: New and Complete Poetry*
> [New York: Seven Stories Press, 2001]
> 
> and in *Poets of World War II*, ed. Harvey Shapiro
> [The Library of America: American Poets Project, 2003]
> 
> 
> Hal              
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From grahamd  Fri Sep  5 10:41:30 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 09:41:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dugan by Pinsky
Message-ID: <BB7E0ACA.424A%grahamd@ripon.edu>

A nice appreciation of Alan Dugan's work by Robert Pinsky, on the occasion
of the appearance of *Poems 7* in 2001:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02E6DD123CF935A25751C1A9679
C8B63

*New York Times*
December 16, 2001

'Poems Seven': Alan Dugan's Poetry for Grown-Ups

By ROBERT PINSKY

Great lyric poetry can begin not only in celebration or ecstasy -- it can
also proceed from irreverence and exposure, with rude vocal gestures
debunking our expectations. Even Yeats, that lover of ceremony, acknowledges
that poetry often cuts through the communal baloney. His poem ''The
Scholars'' -- those ''Bald heads, forgetful of their sins'' -- ends:

All think what other people think;
All know the man their neighbour knows.
Lord, what would they say
Did their Catullus walk that way?

In a different, more intimate way than satire, lyric poetry can remind us of
our defects and make our complacencies laughably vivid. Catullus wrote that
way, and so does Alan Dugan, who can set a glittering barb into every
phrase. Here is one of his best-known poems, ''How We Heard the Name'':

The river brought down
dead horses, dead men
and military debris,
indicative of war
or official acts upstream,
but it went by, it all
goes by, that is the thing
about the river. Then
a soldier on a log
went by. He seemed drunk
and we asked him Why
had he and this junk
come down to us so
from the past upstream.
''Friends,'' he said, ''the great
Battle of Granicus
has just been won
by all of the Greeks except
the Lacedaemonians and
myself: this is a joke
between me and a man
named Alexander, whom
all of you ba-bas
will hear of as a god.''

The words ''from the past upstream'' deftly enlarge the scene, while artful
crudities like the rhyme of ''junk'' and ''drunk'' keep it on the earth. The
almost shrugging passage ''it all / goes by, that is the thing / about the
river'' binds a lyrical fatalism to the dry scorn of terms like ''indicative
of . . . official acts.''

Above all, that scorn expresses more than mere rowdy sensibility. The
passion to dismantle what is official or allegedly godlike, to discredit the
public rhetoric parodied by ''Friends'' -- all have moral focus, slyly
covert yet emphatic. Dugan has a point, not just a manner. His is the
grown-up poetry that teenage fans of Charles Bukowski should hope to
graduate into someday. Among other things Dugan is -- as if in passing -- a
true antiwar poet, without easy postures or wetness. His dread of social and
political power comes from somewhere deeper than mere desire for merit
badges in right thinking or sensitivity. His resistance has an
old-fashioned, bloodstained, paranoid ferocity, as in the last lines of his
poem ''For Masturbation'': ''because I am not them / though I am theirs to
kill.'' 

As a love poet, too, Dugan writes counter to the conventions where ''all
think what other people think.'' In the dire and hilarious ''Love Song: I
and Thou'' he names ''my prime whiskey: rage.'' In the poem's first line,
characterizing the structure of a life, ''Nothing is plumb, level, or
square.'' Nothing is perfect, and that is the point from which he builds:
''I spat rage's nails / into the frame-up of my work,'' and in the closing,
sublime gag: 

God damned it. This is hell,
   but I planned it, I sawed it,
I nailed it, and I
   will live in it until it kills me.
I can nail my left palm
   to the left-hand crosspiece but
I can't do everything myself.
   I need a hand to nail the right,
a help, a love, a you, a wife.

Though I call this a gag, and Dugan can be a terrific joke writer, its force
comes from conviction. The theme of Carl Phillips's insightful foreword to
this volume, which won the National Book Award for Poetry this year, is
truth -- Dugan's stubborn, nontranscendent and unornamented determination to
mean every word: in his words, ''to walk out bravely into the daily
accident.'' That quality of conviction makes even his weaker poems part of a
bracing, exemplary project. When Dugan commits a simplified moralism or a
too casual formula, it is always part of a vision, never mere striving for
effect. The poet's loathing for certain kinds of poeticism, for glib
eloquence and for worshipful bromides about art, seems just as fierce as his
detestation for the hypocrisies of power.

Under these themes is his great subject: human pettiness exposed yet
dignified by mortality. One of the recent poems in this volume is called
''Against the Text 'Art Is Immortal.' '' Its flat, laconic language has an
elegiac, prosaic yet imperative sting:

All art is temporal. All
   art is lost.
Go to Egypt. Go look at
   the Sphinx.
It's falling apart. He sits
on water in the desert
   and the water table
   shifts. 
He has lost his toes to the
   sand-
blasts of the Saharan
   winds
of a mere few thousand
   years.
The Mamelukes shot up
   his face
because they were 
   Iconoclasts,
because they were 
   musketeers.
The British stole his
   beard
because they were 
   imperialist thieves.
It's in the cellar of the
   British Museum 
where the Athenians lost
   their marbles. 

This impudently coarse tone modulates later into the more cosmic, even noble
image of ''water, sand and wind'' that ''wear the godly native beast of man
apart / back to the nothing which sculpted him.'' Mortality puts a period to
all the pretentious human sentences.

Dugan's profane comedy is the necessary counterweight to that gravely
classical moralizing. He says so in ''Speech to the Student Clowns at the
Circus Clown School at Sarasota, Florida,'' which describes a ''bloody
clown'' who slices off the face of a defeated gladiator and wears it with a
slapstick sword, amusing the spectators. About this, Dugan makes one of his
characteristically direct, general propositions: ''Art must be ugly or
lovely or both / to be beautiful, but not nice, terrible / in its pitiful
humors.'' The willingness to engage in these abstractions is itself a way of
not being nice. Louise Gl?ck has written about how Dugan poems like the
magnificent, impudent ''Funeral Oration for a Mouse'' are ''masterworks of
analytical logic, not heroic inflation.'' Logic and abstraction in these
poems deflate moral poses and orations.

In ''Plague of Dead Sharks,'' Dugan takes up the old idea of mutability, in
an image that is both traditional and characteristic:

   What is more built
for winning than the swept-back teeth,
water-finished fins, and pure bad eyes
these old, efficient forms of appetite
are dressed in? Yet it looks as if the sea
digested what it wished of them with viral ease
and threw up what was left to stink and dry.

The blunt, plain ''built / for winning'' has Dugan's eccentric, impatient
economy, and his love for downright words of one syllable energizes ''and
threw up what was left to stink and dry.'' In another kind of language, a
pungent, Latinate precision, the poem considers the consuming sea's
''propensity to feed as animal entire.'' The willingness to generalize and
generate logical finalities in this case expresses itself not in a moral
summary but in a question and an Orphic statement:

Who knows whether the sea heals or corrodes?:
what the sun burns up of it, the moon puts back.

The outlandish punctuation, question mark followed by colon, indicates the
way this resolution hovers between the elemental and the unknowable. At the
age of 78, Dugan remains a high-wire adept. A circus pro above mere flash,
he has seen over his long career many tons of lion and elephant droppings go
down the drains. In a period when cautious young poets may attend graduate
school to learn how to be avant-garde, doing their homework in
self-reflexive doubt about language, Dugan presents a challenging
alternative: a lyrical skepticism, rooted in experience, that scorns the
postmodern safety net.

Though Dugan might hate the word, the teller of these awkward or unpleasant
truths has a role that could be called sacred, as well as unwelcome. Where
our appetite may be for something heroic, elevating or hedonistic, he is
more likely to present us with something like a bill. He chooses to make the
last poem in this volume a flattened parable called ''Closing Time at the
Second Avenue Deli.'' The material is the opposite of heroic, almost
insolently so: a leaky container of leftover lamb stew in a cab. In a tour
de force, the poet brings his ferocious, analytical mode to an extreme of
the quotidian: 

Shall I say that the container can not
contain the thing contained anymore? No.
Just that the lamb stew is leaking all across town
in one place: it is leaking on the floor of the taxi-cab,
and that somebody is going to pay for this ride.

Slyly, this remarkable final passage both has its generalization about ''the
contained'' and takes it back. Enigmatically, it considers the ''one place''
that is mobile rather than fixed. Sardonically, it includes the animal that
symbolizes innocence. Dry and deliberately inglorious, it faithfully
maintains the poet's interest in messes, consequences and costs. Dugan's
remarkable achievement is to see into mean or mundane materials with all the
profundity and force of poetry.



====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================






From JforJames  Fri Sep  5 12:18:53 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:18:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] SALT LAUNCH, LONDON
Message-ID: <ae.47079473.2c8a116d@aol.com>

Subj:    SALT LAUNCH, LONDON
Date:   9/5/03 11:53:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   cemery at saltpublishing.com (Chris Hamilton-Emery)
To: info at saltpublishing.com

Salt Publishing 

warmly invites you to the launch of two major new works

Tony Lopez, "False Memory"
Simon Smith, "Reverdy Road"

7.00pm, 
17th September 2003
Calder Bookshop
51 The Cut
London SE1 8LF



"FALSE MEMORY"
Tony Lopez
1-84471-030-0
2003   216 x 140 mm   128pp
GBP 8.95
USD 12.95

False Memory is a major political poem of unusual ambition, written through
the events of the 1990s, representing the damaged world that we know in all
its violence and inequality.  Making a radical turn to renew the language of
political poetry, Lopez rejects the traditional search for authentic
personal experience and its individual subjective voice. False Memory is
overwhelmed by the globalized slogans of advertising, consumerism, and all
the special jargons that atomize our contemporary experience from the
spheres of marketing, biochemistry, military, medicine, management, history,
finance, fashion, theory, poetry, painting and so on. Driven by an acute
social anxiety that engages these public languages, the poem is comic in its
proliferation of banality and impossible desire. The memory of Elizabethan
sonnet sequences and the soft haze of their Arcadian sunlight meets the
postmodern car-advert in a shiny retro-pastoral: a modular sequence of 110
fourteeners in gleaming halogen-lit chrome. "Virgil knew all about ethnic
cleansing". 

Andrew Crozier writes that "In any of these stanzas language emits the toxic
glow of an intertextuality for which a functioning media awareness is its
sufficient context.... From the start this writing anticipates the
post-modern as a future condition of the person". Widely anthologized and
excerpted in poetry journals throughout the English-speaking world, False
Memory is published complete for the first time by Salt in 2003.

"Tony Lopez's intricate sonnet sequence (a shorter version was published in
1996) is called False Memory, a wonderfully deceptive title for no one
'remembers' better than Lopez, for whom everything that happens, that he
reads about or witnesses, becomes grist for the poetic mill. These eleven
sets of ten linked unrhymed sonnets, written primarily in alexandrines, are
full of startling aper?us and unexpected wisdom. And yet nothing is obvious
in Lopez's poetic universe, alternately commonsensical and surreal,
down-to-earth and utterly fantastic. The book's 'casualness' is highly
crafted and designed:  one reads through the sequence without wanting to
pause for breath, its poetic premise being that 'deferred closure is our
only chance of attendance / When we finally step out of the taxi and begin
to play.' " 
--Marjorie Perloff



"REVERDY ROAD"
Simon Smith
1-84471-027-0
2003   216 x 140 mm   252pp
GBP 10.95
USD 14.95

Reverdy Road is a book of poems celebrating the aleatory. They are various
responses to their now. Each poem is an open gift, a happy thing in the
world -- there's plenty of time to be depressed later on. The book is in
three parts divided by treatment rather than matter. But it is the matter of
words that is the very subject, and how they signify that matters most.
There is no discernable progress, more a marking of time, place, gesture,
answering questions through their own musculature. They have embarked on no
journey, but they seem to be heading to another destination from a location
we can't know. We are getting there, however. Like Orpheus there is no
looking back. Making the world a better place is their business and purpose,
they are friendly and want to talk to you. They won't hurt. They ask very
different questions from journalists, but they love journalists. The body's
place is the question they ask and answer they are giving -- how do bodies
move and remove themselves. The engine is a black Moleskin notebook. Where
they enter life. As Smith says, "All my life they lived under my skin, now
they enter your circulation."

"Listen up to Simon Smith's London phonemes in a lyric serial that commutes
gods, toast, half light, loss, concrete, poetry, phones and angels from poem
to poem. What will happen next memory asks. A sharp poetic intelligence
answers, at work and love in the spliced expression, quick emotion, tried
and untested reasons."
--Peter Middleton




From MIM47  Fri Sep  5 12:44:44 2003
From: MIM47 (MIM47 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:44:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: is poetry asleep?
Message-ID: <b6.21d75499.2c8a177c@aol.com>

Thanks Bob for your thoughtful and energizing response. 

I think I may have been a little vague in my meaning when I said that poetry 
is asleep. You are so right when you say that there is poetry 
everywhere...but! there is so much out there that it is confusing to the reading public 
(non-poet readers). Poetry slams and spoken word and language and 
elliptical...mind-numbing is the length of the list. And New Criticism, while good for academia, 
was the death knell for many who just wanted to rollup their sleeves and see 
what a poem meant to them. I fell victim to that ugly animal myself, being 
told bluntly by a college professor that there was one and only one way to 
interpret a poem (or any art) and I didn't have the key to unlock it. Only through 
her (and her colleagues) who had been "trained" to interpret, could I get in. 
Yikes!  Well, I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now. I have a big 
problem with Lit Crit when it seems to muddy the waters of understanding and 
exclude people from the "club" of interpretation. I applaud it for its deep 
thinking and its curiosity. As for me, I love to examine a poem or any other 
text through the lens of someone like Bordo or Saussure or Eliot. BUT...the eyes 
of the grocery store clerk at Safeway will undoubtedly glaze over at mere 
mention...he needs a WAY IN. And we have not gotten the message out there to the 
clerks and typists and trash haulers that poetry is not for the elite, it is 
for everyone. I was enthralled by the rough sleepers (homeless) in London when I 
lived there for a time in 2001-2. They were panhandling for BOOKS! "can ya 
spare a old copy of something to read? do ya have any poetry on ya?"  I became a 
regular porvider for one man near the University of London. He took special 
care with my books, saw them as precious, kept each book in a baggie to protect 
from the weather. I brought a box of used books to a dinner I helped serve 
for the rough sleepers on Christmas Day...not one was left at the end of the 
day. Just how many times ahs any of us seen that kind of devotion to literature 
in this great country?

I guess what I am talking about is not poetry sleeping, but the dozing off 
that has happened to the po-world's connection to the student in East Podunk ... 
high school or middle school ... and his/her parents. And it starts right 
there, believe me.

My own parents were blue collar, without much in the way of formal education 
(mom was high school valedictorian but dad ended up quitting school to help 
support his family and got g.e.d. in the Army). Neither of them read much beyond 
magazines, the newpaper, and the occasional essay I wrote for school. 
But...they memorized and recited poetry. It was not Hallmark, not Maya Angelou, nor 
was it song lyrics. It was poems like Charge of the Light Brigade and Anabelle 
Lee. It was The Raven and Sonnets from the Portugese. I am NOT seeing that in 
the families I encounter. It is not there ... in a large measure I hear "oh, 
poetry..I never understand that stuff, it all seems so vague, so obscure. It 
puts me to sleep." BUT..when I expose these folks to poetry that is current and 
accessible, poems that are (admittedly) narrative in nature, they light up. 

I am convinced that "regular" people want poetry they can understand, and do 
not shrink from its complexity IF they see a door into the poem through which 
they can step. I have the evidence ... from trenches where I promote poetry to 
the masses. Oh, sure, it is a very little thing I do. But I see a hunger and 
I see results. The average father and mother want Junior to be something 
"more" than they. They see poetry as one way this can happen. But they do not see 
it in the po-scene of hip-hop rhythm and rap. They do not see it in the 
open-mike at LA Spoken. Let's face it, the average family from Cedar Rapids, Iowa or 
Hollister, CA will not decide, on a Friday night, to take their kids to a 
poetry slam. But they will tune in to NPR to hear a poet read on the air. They 
will drive to a reading by a US (or state) Poet Laureate at their local 
performing arts center. It was SRO at the Luther Burbank Center last November when 
Robert Hass and Billy Collins read together. It was families with elementary-aged 
kids and teens. It was old ladies and young couples. it was a trucker still 
smelling of diesel from the big rig parked outside right next to my car. You 
could've heard a pin drop as the two poets shared. I noticed later that the 
trucker had one of each of the laureates' books of poems tucked under his arm as he 
climbed back into his cab and took off.

So, no..poetry is not asleep. It is prowling around looking for friends in 
the parking lots of America.


cheers!

Carol B (po-for-da-peeples)



From GrahamD  Fri Sep  5 16:21:22 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:21:22 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] is poetry asleep?
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A046@mail.ripon.edu>

Poetry is like music, I would say, in that (a) it can be enjoyed equally if
differently by non-practitioners and practitioners; and (b) studying it
closely or professionally can greatly enhance appreciation, but is not
strictly necessary to appreciation.  So I don't think there needs to be any
great conflict between the people and the professors, and, speaking as a
professor, I don't feel threatened when somebody reads a poem outside my
class!

It seems to me that, just as Jim Finnegan suggests, there is currently more
poetry out there than ever, and of more dazzling variety, too.  Part of this
variety includes a mind-boggling amount that could fairly be called
"accessible";  Billy Collins hardly invented that quality.  And in fact,
much of this poetry is available to anyone who's interested just by flipping
on the radio, wandering into a local bar, surfing the internet, visiting a
library, etc.  

So I'm not sure that we can lay quite such heavy blame, in 2003, on R. P.
Blackmur or Robert Penn Warren and their heirs for standing in the way of
anyone's poetry bliss.  It's very very easy to circumvent the professors, if
that's your leaning:  just ask Bill Moyers!

One of my favorite poetry sources is Garrison Keillor's daily radio spot,
The Writer's Almanac.  Though I am a card-carrying professor trained by
newcritical types, I like it that he simply reads the poems aloud without
comment.  That's a nice addition to my day.  I've learned of quite a few new
poets this way, and of course, it's all free for the price of radio
batteries.

The shows are also archived in audio and text forms, if you're interested,
including the poems read:

http://www.writersalmanac.org/



============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================





From Cadaly  Sat Sep  6 13:02:42 2003
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 13:02:42 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Self Promotion City:  My First Book
Message-ID: <135.24afc2ed.2c8b6d32@aol.com>

My first book -- why not buy it? -- represents an incredible bargain, at a 
mere US$0.07/ page
(actually, that's a lovely .0667410714285):

DaDaDa
Catherine Daly
ISBN 1876857951

Buy it before it's reviewed!  Buy it before the book sites realize it is not 
a children's book!

amazon us:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1876857951/qid%3D1062867535/sr%3D11-1/r
ef%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-9736973-0609600

amazon ca:
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1876857951/qid%3D1062867617/701-8117731-
0417102

amazon uk:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/browse/-/welcome/468294/026-1179
828-3213229

B&N:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=0BJWNE894O&
isbn=1876857951&itm=1
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From tadrichards  Sat Sep  6 14:15:24 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:15:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Self Promotion City:  My First Book
References: <135.24afc2ed.2c8b6d32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00b801c374a2$d9b86450$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Catherine - congratulations, and I love your shameless promo.

Suggestion -- can you put a sample page or two on the Amazon site? It really helps, when you're writer of less-than-Billy-Collins-level name recognition, to let people know something of what you do.

Tad

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cadaly at aol.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 1:02 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Self Promotion City: My First Book


  My first book -- why not buy it? -- represents an incredible bargain, at a mere US$0.07/ page
  (actually, that's a lovely .0667410714285):

  DaDaDa
  Catherine Daly
  ISBN 1876857951

  Buy it before it's reviewed!  Buy it before the book sites realize it is not a children's book!

  amazon us:
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1876857951/qid%3D1062867535/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-9736973-0609600

  amazon ca:
  http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1876857951/qid%3D1062867617/701-8117731-0417102

  amazon uk:
  http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/browse/-/welcome/468294/026-1179828-3213229

  B&N:
  http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=0BJWNE894O&isbn=1876857951&itm=1
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From mandolin  Sat Sep  6 14:35:00 2003
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:35:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Self Promotion City:  My First Book
In-Reply-To: <135.24afc2ed.2c8b6d32@aol.com>
Message-ID: <D272C404-E098-11D7-9E2B-000A95E985A4@mac.com>

Hearty congratulations, Catharine!

On Saturday, Sep 6, 2003, at 13:02 US/Eastern, Cadaly at aol.com wrote:

> My first book -- why not buy it? -- represents an incredible bargain,  
> at a mere US$0.07/ page
> (actually, that's a lovely .0667410714285):
> ?
> DaDaDa
> Catherine Daly
> ISBN 1876857951
> ?
> Buy it before it's reviewed!? Buy it before the book sites?realize it  
> is not a children's book!
> ?
> amazon us:
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1876857951/qid%3D1062867535/ 
> sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-9736973-0609600
> ?
> amazon ca:
> http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/1876857951/qid%3D1062867617/701- 
> 8117731-0417102
> ?
> amazon uk:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/stores/browse/-/welcome/468294/ 
> 026-1179828-3213229
> ?
> B&N:
> http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/ 
> isbnInquiry.asp?userid=0BJWNE894O&isbn=1876857951&itm=1





From mandolin  Sat Sep  6 14:42:55 2003
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:42:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] MPoetry3 Project
In-Reply-To: <6e.3180865f.2c89edcc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <EDF3770B-E099-11D7-9E2B-000A95E985A4@mac.com>

There's a considerable set of links to online recorded poetry here: 
http://laurable.com/log/index.html 




From Cadaly  Sat Sep  6 20:14:18 2003
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:14:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Self Promotion City:  My First Book
Message-ID: <107.26907bd2.2c8bd25a@aol.com>

I have been trying and trying to get them to do just that!  I have e-mailed 
and e-mailed amazon UK, amazon US, and B&N online (and, since I have a reading 
series at a B&N, B&N corporate and B&N Southwestern Regional).

There are three poems in the book which, in earlier drafts, are online, two 
at Claire Dinsmore's Cauldron & Net site (one each in vols 3 & 4), and one at 
flim (there are two others at flim).

Obviously, it would make a lot of sense to make that available as a SAMPLE.  

All I can say is SOON, but meanwhile, 

poems one and two in the book:

Cauldron & Net 3 (Fall 2000) "In the Beginning," "Last Words."  
<http://www.studiocleo.com/cauldron/volume3/verbal/catherine_daly/pmmn.html>.

last poems in the first section:
-----. 5 (Fall 2002), "Oos," "Ice," "Ease," "Use," "Ahs." 
<http://www.studiocleo.com/cauldron/volume4/verbal/daly/txt.html>.
third poem in the book:
http://www.flim.com/flim/article.html?a=061


Be well,
Catherine "epideictic" Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From CobbCoStudioArts  Sun Sep  7 11:49:54 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 08:49:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
Message-ID: <20030907154954.B6F004298@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From ggatza  Sun Sep  7 14:50:17 2003
From: ggatza (Geoffrey Gatza)
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 14:50:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] BlazeVOX Hard Drive Dies
Message-ID: <003401c37570$e245fb90$605e3318@white2pimprza3>

BlazeVOX Hard Drive Dies 



 

Suddenly, September 4, 2003, of Buffalo, NY, at the age of 1 year, beloved hard drive of Geoffrey Gatza; loving disk space of Donna and Nick; also survived by aunts, uncles and cousins. Friends may email Sunday evening from 7-9 PM and Monday from 2-4 and 7-9 PM at the COMP USA, 106 Main St. North Buffalo, NY. 

Funeral Services will be held Tuesday morning at 11 AM from St. Matthew's United Church of Christ, McKinley Pkwy., Hamburg. Please assemble at church. Our Hard Drive was a Correctional Sergeant and founding Cert. Team Member for Buffalo Language Correctional and a member of The UB Creeley Crawlers Club. 


Published in the Buffalo News on 9/7/2003

 

 

If you or anyone you know have submitted work to BlazeVOX, please understand that your materials have passed on with our beloved hard drive. Please resend your work!  

 

Also, Geoffrey has lost all 700 poetry related email addresses and if you wish to correspond please send a preemptive email. 

 

 

Best, Geoffrey 
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From chryss  Sun Sep  7 18:17:34 2003
From: chryss (Chryss Yost)
Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 15:17:34 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paging Dr. Gudding
Message-ID: <BB80FC8E.EEFB%chryss@silcom.com>

Gabe,
Please backchannel me...
Thanks,
C.




From ron.silliman  Mon Sep  8 07:18:00 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 07:18:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Le Blog Silliman
Message-ID: <000001c375fa$e19e7d40$52fef343@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

Notes while surfing

Robert Duncan & H.D.

An elegy for September 11:
Michael Gottlieb's Lost and Found

Murat Nemet-Nejat
on translation

What I listen to:
13 stacks of CDs & what's in them -
from the street music of Indonesia
to Tracy Grammer & Norah Jones

Essential Titles:
Charles Olson & Henri Lefebvre

Do We Know Ella Cheese?
A homophonic translation of Rilke

Homophonic translations:
Not all languages are equal

Noble shipwrecks:
Writing poems that can't possibly work -
Lorine Niedecker's "Thomas Jefferson"

Annie Finch on Emily Dickinson -
The context of women poets in the 19th century

JOE // JOE
& the problem of knowledge in reading -
Robert Grenier, John Cage & Jackson Pollock

Philip K. Dick's Solar Lottery -
Building the paranoid narrative machine
(an anecdote about exploding safes) 

The decay of posthumous literary forms
& the importance of book design

Essential titles:
Kathy Acker & Barrett Watten

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/







From gmguddi  Mon Sep  8 23:18:37 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 22:18:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Waltz & Conduit
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030816164717.01299ab0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Apropos of someone's mention of William Waltz's article: for those of you 
who have not read the magazine, CONDUIT, which Brett Astor and William 
Waltz have been publishing since 1993, I do recommend it. It's out, 
currently, of Minneapolis.

I was alerted to a query by someone on this list whose address I have on 
filter to my trash, which person, I'm told, queried whether I'd some 
relationship with Bill Waltz. I have never met Wm Waltz, nor his partner 
Brett Astor, though I sent them some work 4 years ago to consider for 
publication and they chose 3 poems, "Vuh," "Ronald Reagan," and "A Defense 
of Poetry." As people tend to do, we have corresponded off and on since 
that time regarding poems I have sent in. I am obviously grateful to Mr. 
Waltz for mentioning my work in the essay.

And thanks to Wendy Battin for the kind words. As for David's charge that 
the Waltz article in _The Rake_ is reductive, I would agree and assert the 
same could be said, as it rightfully has, for Gioia's "Can Poetry Matter?," 
or Northrop Frye's _Anatomy of Criticism_ (in which Frye reduces most if 
not all genres to four archetypes consonant with the four seasons as well 
as 5 key narrative types depending upon the kind of hero a work portrays). 
Seems to me criticism reduces; that's what it does: its strength and 
failing in one.

Anyway, it's an interesting little magazine.

Waltz, by the way, just won a Slope Edition's first book prize, I think.

__________________________________________________

www.antiwar.com (probably the most useful, thorough, and frequently updated 
of the urls pertaining to US foreign policy -- also one of the most 
credible of the avowedly anti-war right-wing websites)
http://www.truthout.org (stories exclusively from mainstream media -- for 
this reason, a very interesting website)
http://www.commondreams.org/ (this compilation website is subtitled 
"breaking news and views for the progressive community")
http://www.buzzflash.com/ (very earnest and sometimes annoying abstracts 
but generally the most sedulously updated website I frequent)
http://www.legitgov.org/ (*very* annoying abstracts and profoundly 
left-bias to this website, useful stories)
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/?userlang=en (a Russian website rumored to be 
maintained by Russian intelligence. During the major combat in Iraq, this 
webste provided reports based on US-UK military radio communications. 
Sometimes carries and duplicates journalist pieces from western sources. 
Also interesting in that it provides reader-feedback sections. This 
feedback is often very caustic in its criticisms of the US invasion of Iraq 
and of US policy toward Israel and its occupation of Palestine.)
www.indymedia.org (Independent media source, cooperative. Broke the story, 
eg, with photographs, of how staged the toppling of the Saddam statue after 
the "liberation")
http://www.newamericancentury.org/ (this policy website is run by the 
Project for the New American Century, a "neo-con" organization with strong 
political and business and policy ties to the Bush administration. If you 
want to know what the administration is thinking or where it's going, this 
is a good place to start.)
www.onpower.org (a compendium of articles and bibliographic material about 
how US foreign market and military interests have been advanced by the 
advent and creation of national "crises" -- more of a thinktank website 
than a news source, but topical and germane)
http://www.aljazeerah.info/ (an online English version of Al Jazeera, the 
news source out of Qatar, which has won several prestigious international 
awards for its journalism [eg, a recent "anti-censorship award" called the 
"Freedom of Expression Award" given by the London-based Index on 
Censorship]. Of itself it says, "Your Gateway to Understanding the world 
system, American Foreign Policy, and the Arab and Muslim Worlds ..."  Very 
interesting source.)
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/index.htm (Associated Press breaking news. 
Some of these stories are later picked up by newspapers and are then 
altered by those newspapers. Sometimes it's interesting to note how 
newspapers alter the stories. For instance, just a few days ago the New 
York Times removed some statistics from an online story about how many US 
soldiers have been wounded in Iraq since the US invaded the country)

--"That there are men in all countries who get their living by war, and by 
keeping up the quarrels of nations, is as shocking as it is true; but when 
those who are concerned in the government of a country, make it their study 
to sow discord, and cultivate prejudices between nations, it becomes the 
more unpardonable."
         -- Thomas Paine, "The Rights of Man", circa 1792
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From marcus  Tue Sep  9 10:21:15 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 10:21:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] shameless self promotion
In-Reply-To: <EB262EA8-DF1D-11D7-B6A8-000A95E985A4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <3F5DA99B.32201.AEDDCD@localhost>

The address does not resolve; neither does truncating it to 
"archives" nor to just "www.2blowhards.com"  
Sorry

Marcus

On 4 Sep 2003 at 17:22, Michael Snider wrote:

> There's the first of a two-part interview with me at 
> http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/001024.html#001024
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From chris  Tue Sep  9 10:48:51 2003
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2003 06:48:51 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] shameless self promotion
References: <3F5DA99B.32201.AEDDCD@localhost>
Message-ID: <016101c376e1$7f99c950$6401a8c0@disted.uaf.edu>

Works fine for me... most likely some transient DNS problem on your network.

c

On Tuesday, September 09, 2003 6:21 AM [GMT+1=CET],
Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> spake thusly:

> The address does not resolve; neither does truncating it to
> "archives" nor to just "www.2blowhards.com"
> Sorry
> 
> Marcus
> 
> On 4 Sep 2003 at 17:22, Michael Snider wrote:
> 
>> There's the first of a two-part interview with me at
>> http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/001024.html#001024
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From marcus  Wed Sep 10 13:40:04 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:40:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gudding's Waltz
Message-ID: <3F5F29B4.22536.D02EF4@localhost>

Gudding's Waltz

Whatever Gudding?s other faults,
He says he didn?t sleep with Walz;
That potty-mouth which Gabe exalts
     Claims other vices:
Walz may have published Gudding?s prose
Relineated for its pose
As poems, but that only shows
     What Gudding?s price is.

Gabe?s a sort of hometown raver,
Ambition?s slave who?ll always slaver
Over those who?ll do some favor --
     Or return it.
So look at Gudding?s every phrase,
Aware of all the ways he weighs
The work of friends with pretty praise --
     And how they earn it.








From marcus  Wed Sep 10 13:40:04 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:40:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Our Leader's Resume
Message-ID: <3F5F29B4.23792.D02DBD@localhost>

I attacked and took over two countries.
I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the US Treasury.
I shattered the record for the biggest annual deficit in history.
I set an economic record for the most personal bankruptcies filed in 
any 12 month period.
I set all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the 
stock market.
I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.
I am the first president in US history to enter office with a 
criminal record.
In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on 

vacation by any president in US history.
After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided 
over the worst security failure in US history.
I set the record for most campaign fund raising trips by any presiden 

in U.S. history. 
In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their 
job.
I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any
other president in US history.
I set the all-time record for most real estate foreclosures in a 12-
month?period 
I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions 
than any president in US history.
I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president, 
since the advent of TV.
I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution 
than any other US president in history
I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused 
to intervene when corruption was revealed.
I cut health care benefits for war veterans.
I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to 
simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), 

shattering the record for protest against any person in the history 
of mankind.
I dissolved more international treaties than any president in 
U.S.history.
I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any 
in U.S. history.
Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in
U.S.history.
I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the
Union?simultaneously struggle against bankruptcy.
I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any 
market in any country in the history of the world.
I am the first president in US history to order a US attack and 
military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the 
will of the United Nations and the vast majority of the 
international community.
I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the 
history of the United States, called the "Bureau of Homeland 
Security.".
I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending 
increases, more than any other president in US history.
I am the first president in US history to compel the United Nations 
to remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.
I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations 
remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.
I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of 
congressional oversight than any presidential administration in 
U.S.history.
I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.
I withdrew from the World Court of Law.
I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by 
default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.
I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations 
election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.
I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate 
campaign donations.
The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of 
my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate 
bankruptcy frauds in world history.
I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in 
U.S. history.
I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under 
attack (and then lied,saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)
I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.
I took the world's sympathy for the US after 9/11,and in less than a 
year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the 

biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).
I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the 
people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to 
world peace and stability.
I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded 
government contracts.
I set the all-time record for the number of administration appointees 

who violated US law by not selling their huge investments in 
corporations bidding for gov't contracts.
I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than 
any other president in US history. In a little over two years.
I have created the most divided country in decades, possibly the 
mostdivided that the US has been since the Civil War.
I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less 

than two years turned every single economic category heading
straight down.

I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas 
driving record has been erased and is not available).
I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during 
time of war.
I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug 
use.
All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away 

to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for 
public view.
All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or 
bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public 
view.
All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served 
on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public 
view.
Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP)attended regarding 
public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for 
public eview.

For personal references, please speak to my dad or Uncle James Baker 
(They can be reached in their offices at the Carlyle Group where they 

are helping to divide up the spoils of the US-Iraq war and plan for 
the next one).







From GrahamD  Thu Sep 11 10:18:45 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:18:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 9/11
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A055@mail.ripon.edu>

I Saw You Walking

I saw you walking through Newark Penn Station 
in your shoes of white ash. At the corner 
of my nervous glance your dazed passage 
first forced me away, tracing the crescent 
berth you'd give a drunk, a lurcher, nuzzling 
all corners with ill will and his stench, but 
not this one, not today; one shirt arm's sheared 
clean from the shoulder, the whole bare limb 
wet with muscle and shining dimly pink, 
the other full-sheathed in cotton, Brooks Bros. 
type, the cuff yet buttoned at the wrist, a 
parody of careful dress, preparedness -- 
so you had not rolled up your sleeves yet this 
morning when your suit jacket (here are 
the pants, dark gray, with subtle stripe, as worn 
by men like you on ordinary days) 
and briefcase (you've none, reverse commuter 
come from the pit with nothing to carry 
but your life) were torn from you, as your life 
was not. Your face itself seemed to be walking, 
leading your body north, though the age 
of the face, blank and ashen, passing forth 
and away from me, was unclear, the sandy 
crown of hair powdered white like your feet, but 
underneath not yet gray -- forty-seven? 
forty-eight? The age of someone's father -- 
and I trembled for your luck, for your broad, 
dusted back, half shirted, walking away; 
I should have dropped to my knees to thank God 
you were alive, o my God, in whom I don't believe. 

--Deborah Garrison.  The New Yorker, 22 October 2001.  Reprinted in  110
Stories: New York Writes After September 11,edited by Ulrich Baer. New York
University Press. 2002.



============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From Edward.Byrne  Thu Sep 11 10:40:36 2003
From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:40:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 9/11 poem
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10309110936.G@muahost.valpo.edu>

Here is a wonderful post-9/11 poem by Rod Santos that seems appropriate 
to post today.  It is from his terrific new collection, _The 
Perishing_, but I'm pleased to say it also appears in the new 
(Fall/Winter 2003-2004) issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ 
<http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/>, in which he is the featured poet.  

--Ed


AIRPORT SECURITY 
   (01.01.02)


Refortified by state troopers in black jodhpurs
And full tactical belts, heavily-armed, 
Owl-eyed boys in camouflage, a fussier 
Staff of ticket agents, and the usual if now

Beefed-up legions of security personnel
(A blunt force which, having seen in us
A new appreciation for their skills,
Are, all things considered, much nicer).

It eases first, then releases the mind 
To gauge its own insecurities, 
That soft jolt of adrenaline which 
Reminds us we have cast our fates 

At the brink of something we can?t defend, 
Or defend altogether, against whatever 
Else might be waiting out there. 
And something about this milling ruckus

Of wary selves backed up and forming
Into broken lines asks us to consider this:
"Why does anyone ever leave home?" 
And the answer is suddenly hard to find.

Not enough so that anyone actually steps


From JforJames  Thu Sep 11 19:20:50 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:20:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] free a book!
Message-ID: <102.3548825a.2c925d52@aol.com>

Poetical Happening"
>
> On Sept. 11th, join a "poetical happening" and free a book!
>
> Because a book is a symbol of freedom, sharing and tolerance.
>
> On Sept. 11th, 2003, take a book which is important for you, a book
> that has changed your vision on the world, write in it a dedication,  a
> few
> words,
> an address, or a drawing, and free it!
>
> Leave it on a roadside bench, a bus stop or in a cafe making it
> available for any unknown reader!
>
> In this way Sept. 11th will be not only an anniversary of tragedy.
> Together let us affect this global sorrow with creative and generous
> action!
>
> A general mobilization from Bruxelles, Paris, Florence, San Francisco,
> Denver, Chicago, New York, Seattle, Whidbey Island and more! Almost all
> over the world readers, artists, writers, poets, and publishers of
> vision and heart will free books that are important for them on
> Thursday Sept. 11th 2003.
>
> Get involved and tell your friends!
> Readers, authors, publishers - free a book!
>
> Because a book is a symbol of freedom, sharing and tolerance!
>
> Some who have already decided to free a book:
> Sophie Buyse, Anatole Atlas, Alejandro Jodorowsky, Evrahim Baran,
> Graziano Staino, Guy Montens, David Giannoni, Patrick Depauld, Luca Del
> Punta, Xavier L?wenthal, Antonio Bertoli, Emmanuel Lequeux, Marco
> Parente, Martin Bakero, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Nati B. La?tem, Cristina
> Abati, Ed Sanders, Carlo Salvador, Luigi Grechi, Anne Waldman, Marianne
> Costa, Giuseppe Monaco, Leslie Aguillard of Denver, Victory Lee
> Schouten
>
> This poetical happening originated with:
> ?ditions Maelstr?m - Bruxelles, ?ditions Le Veilleur - Paris, Edizioni
> CityLights - Firenze, City Lights Publishers - San Francisco, A.C.
> Biofficina - Roma - Leslie Aguillard, Denver
>
> Belgium: info at maelstromeditions.com
> http://it.f420.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=info at maelstromeditions.com
>
> France: e.lequeux at tiscali.fr
> http://it.f420.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=e.lequeux at tiscali.fr>
> Italy: citylights at firenze.net
> U.S.A. : stacey at citylights.com
> http://it.f420.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=stacey at citylights.com>
>
> Because a book is a symbol of freedom, sharing and tolerance!




From elemenope  Thu Sep 11 10:28:56 2003
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:28:56 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Message of Remembrance from President Bush
Message-ID: <a05100302bb8636c0d855@[204.215.200.31]>

>Dear Richard,
>
>Two years ago, more than 3,000 innocent people lost their lives when 
>a calm September morning was shattered by terrorists driven by 
>hatred and destruction.
>
>On that day, and in its aftermath, we saw the greatness of America 
>in the bravery of victims; in the heroism of first responders who 
>laid down their lives to save others; in the compassion of people 
>who stepped forward to help those they had never met; and in the 
>generosity of millions of Americans who enriched our country with 
>acts of service and kindness. Since that day, we have seen the 
>greatness of America further demonstrated in the courage of our 
>brave men and women in uniform who have served and sacrificed in 
>Afghanistan, in Iraq, and around the world to advance freedom and 
>prevent terrorist attacks on America.
>
>As we remember September 11, 2001, we reaffirm the vows made in the 
>earliest hours of our grief and anger. As liberty's home and 
>defender, America will not tire, will not falter, and will not fail 
>in fighting for the safety and security of the American people and a 
>world free from terrorism. We will continue to bring our enemies to 
>justice or bring justice to them. This Patriot Day, we hold steady 
>to this task.
>
>By a joint resolution approved December 18, 2001 (Public Law 
>107-89), the Congress has designated September 11 of each year as 
>"Patriot Day."
>
>NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of 
>America, do hereby proclaim September 11, 2003, as Patriot Day. I 
>call upon the people of the United States to observe this day with 
>appropriate ceremonies and activities, including remembrance 
>services and candlelight vigils. I also call upon the Governors of 
>the United States and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, as well as 
>appropriate officials of all units of government, to direct that the 
>flag be flown at half-staff on Patriot Day. In addition, I call upon 
>all Americans to display the flag at half-staff from their homes on 
>that day and to observe a moment of silence beginning at 8:46 a.m. 
>eastern daylight time to honor the innocent victims who lost their 
>lives as a result of the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.
>
>IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this fourth day of 
>September, in the year of our Lord two thousand three, and of the 
>Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and 
>twenty-eighth.
>
>
>
>Outside of St. John's Church in Washington, DC, President Bush Made 
>The Following Remarks
>
>"Today our nation remembers -- we remember a sad and terrible day, 
>September the 11th, 2001. We remember lives lost. We remember the 
>heroic deeds. We remember the compassion and the decency of our 
>fellow citizens on that terrible day.
>
>"Also today is a day of prayer. We pray for the husbands and wives 
>and moms and dads and sons and daughters and loved ones of those who 
>still grieve and hurt. We pray for strength and wisdom. We thank God 
>for the many blessings of this nation, and we ask His blessings on 
>those who especially hurt today.
>
>"Thank you."
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
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From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 12 10:16:44 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:16:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] X. J. Kennedy poem on Writer's Almanac 9/12
Message-ID: <1eb.f87ae7d.2c932f4c@cs.com>

http://www.writersalmanac.org/
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From Cadaly  Fri Sep 12 15:46:19 2003
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:46:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] LA:  Writers & Teachers at B&N Westwood, Tuesday, Sept. 16, 7:30
Message-ID: <169.23b113a9.2c937c8b@aol.com>

Monthly Writers & Teachers Series 

Three authors published by Red Hen Press (as well as many other fine 
publishers), writers & teachers all, will be reading together to celebrate the one 
year anniversary of this reading series at Barnes & Noble Westwood.

Kate Gale, Poet, Novelist, Anthologist 
Susan McCabe, Critic, Poet
Eloise Klein Healy, Poet, Memoirist, *et.al.*

7:30
Tuesday, August 19
Barnes & Noble Westwood
in the Westside Pavilion at Westwood + Pico
10850 Pico
LA

free snacks / parking

If you don't want to receive these mailings, let me know.  I'll take you off 
my lists.

Rgds,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
Author, DaDaDa (Salt Publishing, 2003)
ISBN:  1876857951
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From anny.ballardini  Sat Sep 13 07:05:52 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:05:52 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Advertising my reviews
Message-ID: <002001c379e6$ff34df80$1a737450@anny>

Dear All,

I am advertising some of my work:

my review of _How to Occupy Our Selves_ by David Howard can be read at:

http://www.fieralingue.it/poetcorner/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=50

my review of Mair?ad Byrne's _Nelson & the Huruburu Bird_ is at:

http://www.fieralingue.it/poetcorner/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=48

and finally I enjoyed reading and writing about, Fulcrum: an annual of
poetry and aesthetics, you can find it at:

http://www.fieralingue.it/poetcorner/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=47

You should have any comments I'll be extremely happy to read them, and yes,
I recommend these books.
My best, 

Anny Ballardini
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From james.alexander1  Fri Sep 12 17:20:12 2003
From: james.alexander1 (james.alexander1)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:20:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Le Blog Silliman
References: <000001c375fa$e19e7d40$52fef343@Dell>
Message-ID: <000501c379f8$a9af63c0$9986fac1@pavilion>

Ref: JOE // JOE
& the problem of knowledge in reading -
Robert Grenier, John Cage & Jackson Pollock

for my "Conversations on Innovations"

Threads:
Discussion: My Latest Contribution to ChemWeb  in physchem/0303001
http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0303001#discussion

specifically:

http://preprint.chemweb.com/chemistry/0307003
Title: Converastions on Innovation - Le Tour de France:Conversation (1) on
the Search for a Physics & Chemistry of  Innovation - Reward Systems.By J.
Alexander.
Date/Time of upload: 30 July 2003/16:30:36

Could there be poetry in this?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron" <ron.silliman at verizon.net>
To: "WOM-PO" <WOM-PO at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>; <BRITISH-POETS at JISCMAIL.AC.UK>;
<nanders1 at swarthmore.edu>; <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>;
<POETICS at listserv.BUFFALO.EDU>; "'whpoets'" <whpoets at english.upenn.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 1:18 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Le Blog Silliman


> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/
>
> Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar
>
> Notes while surfing
>
> Robert Duncan & H.D.
>
> An elegy for September 11:
> Michael Gottlieb's Lost and Found
>
> Murat Nemet-Nejat
> on translation
>
> What I listen to:
> 13 stacks of CDs & what's in them -
> from the street music of Indonesia
> to Tracy Grammer & Norah Jones
>
> Essential Titles:
> Charles Olson & Henri Lefebvre
>
> Do We Know Ella Cheese?
> A homophonic translation of Rilke
>
> Homophonic translations:
> Not all languages are equal
>
> Noble shipwrecks:
> Writing poems that can't possibly work -
> Lorine Niedecker's "Thomas Jefferson"
>
> Annie Finch on Emily Dickinson -
> The context of women poets in the 19th century
>
> JOE // JOE
> & the problem of knowledge in reading -
> Robert Grenier, John Cage & Jackson Pollock
>
> Philip K. Dick's Solar Lottery -
> Building the paranoid narrative machine
> (an anecdote about exploding safes)
>
> The decay of posthumous literary forms
> & the importance of book design
>
> Essential titles:
> Kathy Acker & Barrett Watten
>
> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From james.alexander1  Sat Sep 13 09:09:46 2003
From: james.alexander1 (james.alexander1)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 15:09:46 +0200
Subject: Is this poetry? Re: [New-Poetry] BlazeVOX Hard Drive Dies
References: <003401c37570$e245fb90$605e3318@white2pimprza3>
Message-ID: <000601c379f8$b923fe60$9986fac1@pavilion>

Sorry to hear this. My Hard Disk died age 18months old, all reanimation failed. To top-up this occured
6 months after my life insurance policy ran out, no burial provision (landfill) or cremation provided for (noctious volatile compounds or poisonous residual ashes). In the after-life I have become interested in the incandescent nature of these delicate bio-like mechanisms to a fault, my shadow errs in search of criminal sources, and defectuous materials and may have had a role in my:

"Conversations on Innovation"

Discussion: My Latest Contribution to ChemWeb  in physchem/0303001
http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0303001#discussion 

Discussion: My Latest Contribution to ChemWeb  in physchem/0303001
http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0303001#discussion 

Discussion: My Latest Contribution to ChemWeb  in physchem/0303001
http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0303001#discussion 

Discussion: My Latest Contribution to ChemWeb  in physchem/0303001
http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0303001#discussion 

Discussion: My Latest Contribution to ChemWeb  in physchem/0303001
http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0303001#discussion 

Discussion: My Latest Contribution to ChemWeb  in physchem/0303001
http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0303001#discussion 

http://preprint.chemweb.com/chemistry/0307003
Title: Converastions on Innovation - Le Tour de France:Conversation (1) on the Search for a Physics & Chemistry of  Innovation - Reward Systems.By J. Alexander.
Date/Time of upload: 30 July 2003/16:30:36
(initially 11 July 2003.) 

IS THIS POETRY?  

If you have no colleagues in chemistry to help pick up these threads, I can cut & paste this to widen my eerie erring search!

Best wishes

Footynote: We have found a new sponsor Mr. Grasso
the 140M$ salaried Chairman of the NY stock exchange
has give up his supplimentary benefits 48M$. ref:
The Economist (web alert) which as far as I know is "Independent" (50% Pearson Group?) !!! 


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Geoffrey Gatza 
  To: UB Poetics discussion group ; ImitaPo Memebers ; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ; Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics ; WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines 
  Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 8:50 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] BlazeVOX Hard Drive Dies


  BlazeVOX Hard Drive Dies 



   

  Suddenly, September 4, 2003, of Buffalo, NY, at the age of 1 year, beloved hard drive of Geoffrey Gatza; loving disk space of Donna and Nick; also survived by aunts, uncles and cousins. Friends may email Sunday evening from 7-9 PM and Monday from 2-4 and 7-9 PM at the COMP USA, 106 Main St. North Buffalo, NY. 

  Funeral Services will be held Tuesday morning at 11 AM from St. Matthew's United Church of Christ, McKinley Pkwy., Hamburg. Please assemble at church. Our Hard Drive was a Correctional Sergeant and founding Cert. Team Member for Buffalo Language Correctional and a member of The UB Creeley Crawlers Club. 


  Published in the Buffalo News on 9/7/2003

   

   

  If you or anyone you know have submitted work to BlazeVOX, please understand that your materials have passed on with our beloved hard drive. Please resend your work!  

   

  Also, Geoffrey has lost all 700 poetry related email addresses and if you wish to correspond please send a preemptive email. 

   

   

  Best, Geoffrey 
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From james.alexander1  Sat Sep 13 13:54:27 2003
From: james.alexander1 (james.alexander1)
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:54:27 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Not much use as I am in France, but read on
Message-ID: <001401c37a3e$3d98f020$9b84fac1@pavilion>

It is nice to brush up on poetry from time to time as well as N.American Geography, culture etc. but must try and reduce the amount of mails I receive from New Poetry without loosing such pearl's as Bubya's CV , Vocabulary which stimulates me to dig out my Dico(as they say here in France for dictionary) and various samples of poems mostly from people I have never heard of.  

If you have friends in science & chemistry, physics etc. you may wish to ask them for remarks on
my approach to communicating science & emotion and related.

Discussion: My Latest Contribution to ChemWeb  in physchem/0303001
http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0303001#discussion 
In particular : "Newton is Dead". one of my first verses !
&  much else


http://preprint.chemweb.com/chemistry/0307003
Title: Converastions on Innovation - Le Tour de France:Conversation (1) on the Search for a Physics & Chemistry of  Innovation - Reward Systems.By J. Alexander.
Date/Time of upload: 30 July 2003/16:30:36
Summary:

Abstract:

 

A fresh, and hopefully refreshing, conversational styled, review of science's powerful and indispensable tool in humanities search for truth and knowledge, namely the experimental method. The thread followed is due to B. Labour's proposition to apply the method more generally to the case of Knowledge versus Ignorance by encouraging its use collectively by a much wider spectrum of society, which may be called Innovating Team (IT).  The treatment suggests, not without humour and humility, that the universally acknowledged power of the experimental method, may be used for greatly improved effectiveness, when confronted with problems of a dichotomic nature (mutually opposing and exclusive). The style, sometimes humorous, sometimes caustic, even poetic at times hopes to make enjoyable, good reading. By applying a variant of the method Kiss, three models are described to encourage scientists and non-scientists to map their path in life, within the interacting fields of science and society, both as individuals and together in interdisciplinary communities.    

 

One of Three pieces extracted from: "Conversations on Innovations": 

 

I 

 I knew it would be difficult to avoid the Bell shaped curve (the Normal distribution in Statistics): 

            

The Bell Shaped Curve:

 

Not the one of dreams, actually,

With all its ring of normality,

And background skewed tonality,

Neither justifiable of necessity,

Trying so to avoid all criminality,

Oft' far from proper musicality.

 

                                                            copyright ? J.A.

 

But although far from Auden's standard (also a trained scientist-biologist) there are some nice pieces & reasonably good prose for a non-literary professional.



So no meeting invitations on poetry, please, I have a difficult enough time with science or management conf & training invitations.  Thanks for your time.



James Alexander

all other info on www.chemweb.com
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From ron.silliman  Mon Sep 15 07:54:32 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:54:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000101c37b80$2dcc7430$d674ed41@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

The Houlihan fiasco

Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

Artists & others bedeviled by genre --
Salam Pax: journalist or architect
Viggo Mortensen: actor, poet, painter
Paul Pena & the blues in Tuva
& a context for Stan Rice, painter

Thomas Meyer's Coromandel

"Pieces of the past"
-- a poem by Jack Spicer

H.D., Noveliste

-isms:
community or marketing?

Notes while surfing

Robert Duncan & H.D.

An elegy for September 11:
Michael Gottlieb's Lost and Found

Murat Nemet-Nejat
on translation

What I listen to:
13 stacks of CDs & what's in them -
from the street music of Indonesia
to Tracy Grammer & Norah Jones

Essential Titles:
Charles Olson & Henri Lefebvre

Do We Know Ella Cheese?
A homophonic translation of Rilke

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/







From Edward.Byrne  Mon Sep 15 10:25:16 2003
From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:25:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fall/Winter 2003-2004 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10309150916.B@muahost.valpo.edu>

Announcement: Publication of the Fall/Winter 2003-2004 
issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_.

The Fall/Winter 2003-2004 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ 
is now available at the following url:

http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/

*Fall/Winter 2003-2004 Issue Contents*

Featured Poet: Sherod Santos  

Additional Poets: Stephen Benz, Rebecca Dunham, Rhoda Janzen, Robin 
Kemp, Jesse Lee Kercheval, Jeff Knorr, Heather Maring, Jim Murphy, 
Nicole Pekarske, Peter Serchuk, Rita Signorelli-Pappas, Ann Silsbee, 
Ricardo Sternberg, Kathrine Varnes, Benjamin Vogt.  

Interview: Andrew Mulvania interviews Sherod Santos  

Essay: "Why I Still Write about the War," H. Palmer Hall 

Poets Reviewed: Diane Lockward, Sherod Santos, Don Schofield, Vivian Shipley

Book of Essays Reviewed: Janet McCann reviews H. Palmer Hall's 
_Reflections on Writing, Publishing, & Other Things_.
 
Cover Art Commentary:  Gregg Hertzlieb on David Hockney 


As always, the new issue includes a list of recently received and 
recommended books of poetry or poetics, as well as guidelines for 
submissions.  Submissions and review copies of books are always 
welcome.  

All past issues of VPR and a complete archive of poems, essays, 
interviews, reviews, and commentary on art remain available for 
reading. 

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------








From poemlady  Mon Sep 15 11:50:39 2003
From: poemlady (Audrey Friedman)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:50:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fall/Winter 2003-2004 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_
References: <SIMEON.10309150916.B@muahost.valpo.edu>
Message-ID: <002f01c37ba1$1cc13100$4a430e44@Zoom>

Do you also have the plates that were on Dad's car?

I'm all confused.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Byrne" <Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 10:25 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fall/Winter 2003-2004 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry
Review_


>
> Announcement: Publication of the Fall/Winter 2003-2004
> issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_.
>
> The Fall/Winter 2003-2004 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_
> is now available at the following url:
>
> http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
>
> *Fall/Winter 2003-2004 Issue Contents*
>
> Featured Poet: Sherod Santos
>
> Additional Poets: Stephen Benz, Rebecca Dunham, Rhoda Janzen, Robin
> Kemp, Jesse Lee Kercheval, Jeff Knorr, Heather Maring, Jim Murphy,
> Nicole Pekarske, Peter Serchuk, Rita Signorelli-Pappas, Ann Silsbee,
> Ricardo Sternberg, Kathrine Varnes, Benjamin Vogt.
>
> Interview: Andrew Mulvania interviews Sherod Santos
>
> Essay: "Why I Still Write about the War," H. Palmer Hall
>
> Poets Reviewed: Diane Lockward, Sherod Santos, Don Schofield, Vivian
Shipley
>
> Book of Essays Reviewed: Janet McCann reviews H. Palmer Hall's
> _Reflections on Writing, Publishing, & Other Things_.
>
> Cover Art Commentary:  Gregg Hertzlieb on David Hockney
>
>
> As always, the new issue includes a list of recently received and
> recommended books of poetry or poetics, as well as guidelines for
> submissions.  Submissions and review copies of books are always
> welcome.
>
> All past issues of VPR and a complete archive of poems, essays,
> interviews, reviews, and commentary on art remain available for
> reading.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> Edward Byrne
> Department of English
> 322 Huegli Hall
> Valparaiso University
> Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493
>
> E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
> http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
>
> Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
> E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
> http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
> Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
> Fax: (219) 464-5511
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From poemlady  Mon Sep 15 11:54:53 2003
From: poemlady (Audrey Friedman)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:54:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fall/Winter 2003-2004 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_
References: <SIMEON.10309150916.B@muahost.valpo.edu> <002f01c37ba1$1cc13100$4a430e44@Zoom>
Message-ID: <004801c37ba1$b44ef390$4a430e44@Zoom>

OOOOOOOOOPS.
Sent to wrong addie, obviously!

Sorry.
Audrey


----- Original Message -----
From: "Audrey Friedman" <poemlady at cox.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fall/Winter 2003-2004 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry
Review_


> Do you also have the plates that were on Dad's car?
>
> I'm all confused.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Edward Byrne" <Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 10:25 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Fall/Winter 2003-2004 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry
> Review_
>
>
> >
> > Announcement: Publication of the Fall/Winter 2003-2004
> > issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_.
> >
> > The Fall/Winter 2003-2004 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_
> > is now available at the following url:
> >
> > http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
> >
> > *Fall/Winter 2003-2004 Issue Contents*
> >
> > Featured Poet: Sherod Santos
> >
> > Additional Poets: Stephen Benz, Rebecca Dunham, Rhoda Janzen, Robin
> > Kemp, Jesse Lee Kercheval, Jeff Knorr, Heather Maring, Jim Murphy,
> > Nicole Pekarske, Peter Serchuk, Rita Signorelli-Pappas, Ann Silsbee,
> > Ricardo Sternberg, Kathrine Varnes, Benjamin Vogt.
> >
> > Interview: Andrew Mulvania interviews Sherod Santos
> >
> > Essay: "Why I Still Write about the War," H. Palmer Hall
> >
> > Poets Reviewed: Diane Lockward, Sherod Santos, Don Schofield, Vivian
> Shipley
> >
> > Book of Essays Reviewed: Janet McCann reviews H. Palmer Hall's
> > _Reflections on Writing, Publishing, & Other Things_.
> >
> > Cover Art Commentary:  Gregg Hertzlieb on David Hockney
> >
> >
> > As always, the new issue includes a list of recently received and
> > recommended books of poetry or poetics, as well as guidelines for
> > submissions.  Submissions and review copies of books are always
> > welcome.
> >
> > All past issues of VPR and a complete archive of poems, essays,
> > interviews, reviews, and commentary on art remain available for
> > reading.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Edward Byrne
> > Department of English
> > 322 Huegli Hall
> > Valparaiso University
> > Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493
> >
> > E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
> > http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/
> >
> > Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
> > E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
> > http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
> > Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
> > Fax: (219) 464-5511
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From paul.lake  Mon Sep 15 13:36:34 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:36:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Pluralism Manifesto"
Message-ID: <BB8B62D1.541A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Just discovered the following Colorado proposal and thought I'd pass this
account of it along to other academic members of this list. It looks to be a
controversial topic.

Paul Lake



'Pluralism' manifesto lights a furor'



By Valerie Richardson
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


????DENVER ? A Republican proposal to boost pluralism in academia in
Colorado has enraged the left, prompting cries of McCarthyism and calls for
an investigation. 
????The flap erupted last week after word surfaced that Colorado Republican
leaders are throwing their support behind the "Academic Bill of Rights," a
document drawn up over the summer by Los Angeles-based conservative activist
David Horowitz. 
????The eight-point manifesto calls for increasing intellectual diversity in
academia by urging universities to seek more conservative professors,
include more classics in the curriculum, invite conservative speakers to
campus, and protect students who disagree with liberal professors from
academic harassment.
????A research survey released by the Center for the Study of Popular
Culture last year found that liberal professors vastly outnumber
conservatives on major university campuses. In a survey of 150 departments
at 32 colleges, including the Ivy League, Democrats outnumbered Republicans
by a 10-1 margin. 
????A study commissioned by the center at the University of Colorado at
Boulder last year found that 94 percent of the faculty were Democrats. At
the University of Denver, it was 98 percent.
????"Scholarship is not politics," said Mr. Horowitz, the center's founder.
????The issue cropped up in Colorado in January, when Gov. Bill Owens, a
Republican, complained during a radio interview about the lack of
ideological balance at state universities. In June, Mr. Horowitz met over
breakfast with Mr. Owens and Republican legislative leaders to discuss his
plan. 
????When word of the meeting appeared in the Rocky Mountain News last week,
however, liberals exploded, accusing conservatives of holding a "secret
meeting" to curb free speech and mandate university quotas for registered
Republicans. 
????"When is a quota not a quota? When it benefits Republicans, it seems,"
said the Denver Post in a Saturday editorial. "The same party that's been
squawking over race-based college admissions now apparently wants
universities to check voter-registration rolls when hiring faculty to ensure
more conservatives are added to the ranks."
????Former Lt. Gov. Gail Schoettler, a Democrat, called supporters of the
document "mind police" with a hidden agenda. "We aren't seeing an interest
in encouraging real diversity of ideas; it is an interest in promoting a
conservative political agenda," she said in a column in yesterday's Denver
Post. 
????The Faculty Senate at Metropolitan State College of Denver called Friday
for a probe into the meeting and "any possible threat to academic freedom
and curricular responsibility that might flow from such meetings."
????But proponents say they adamantly have rejected quotas from the start.
The Academic Bill of Rights wouldn't force universities to hire a fixed
number of Republicans, but it would provide a remedy for students and job
applicants seeking redress for discrimination, State Senate President John
Andrews said. 
????How the Academic Bill of Rights would be implemented remains fuzzy. Mr.
Owens said he wasn't sure such a concept could be mandated. Mr. Andrews said
he wants to see it adopted either by state universities, the state
Commission on Higher Education or the state legislature.
????The document also would offer support to students of any political
stripe who want to push for a more diversified curriculum. The campaign
reinforces that idea with the slogan, "You can't get a good education if
they're only telling you half the story."
????Mr. Horowitz hasn't confined his efforts to Colorado. He said he has
spoken to Republican leaders in about 20 states, and that some also are
planning action during the next legislative session, although he wouldn't
name the states. 
????He has also taken the idea to campus, discussing it with the University
of California Board of Regents, the University of Oregon administration and
students at the University of South Dakota. The document's primary lobbying
body is the student-run Students for Academic Freedom, which has
representatives on 70 campuses.
????The group's Web site includes a host of examples of discrimination
against conservatives, including the following:
?????An ROTC student at Bowling Green University in Ohio who was repeatedly
singled out and harassed by a professor during an elective course on the
Vietnam War. The professor refused to let the student drop the class, and
gave him a failing grade.
?????In May, a review committee at Smith College found that conservative
economics professor James D. Miller's academic freedom was violated when he
was turned down for tenure. It turned out that professors who had voted
against him disapproved of his writing for a conservative publication.
?????A highly qualified applicant for an Asian studies teaching position was
rejected because he mentioned during his interview that he was in favor of
school vouchers. 
????Supporters of the Academic Bill of Rights stress its political
neutrality. 
????"At first, it's going to operate more often to protect conservatives
just because American universities have been dominated by the liberal-left
for 40 years," Mr. Andrews said. "But the pendulum will swing, and this will
protect people across the spectrum from being treated unfairly." 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From rlong  Mon Sep 15 13:46:55 2003
From: rlong (Richard Long)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:46:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fall Issue of The 2River View
Message-ID: <E6DC2F9C5BEB49429EA0033DEEE135C70269919C@phoenix.stlcc.edu>

The 8.1 (Fall 2003) issue The 2River View is just released, this one
with new poems by Arlene Ang, Stephen Benz, Benjamin Buchholz, Christina
Wos Donnelly, Annalynn Hammond, Judy Kronenfeld, Treva Lewis, Allan
Peterson, Scott Starbuck; translations of Gu Cheng by Arron Crippen; and
art by Don Bied.

Announce it wide.

======
2River
www.2River.org




From paul.lake  Mon Sep 15 15:00:47 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:00:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Pluralism
Message-ID: <BB8B768F.541E%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Poets on the list may not want to follow this, but the poet-profs may want
to read more on the "Pluralism" issue. For those who do, here's a piece on
the same topic by a conservative commentator.


 
Faculty Tilt
Our teachers lean left by a sizeable majority.

This is the time of year when millions of parents send their children off to
universities. Unfortunately, one price of getting one?s children into a top
school these days is that they may be subjected to four years of liberal
propaganda.
Those in academia like to call the liberal orientation of most college
faculty a red herring. But objective research continually shows that it is
not. The latest data appear in the Aug. 29 issue of the Chronicle of Higher
Education. A solid majority of those teaching at both public and private
universities described themselves as being either liberal or far left. Less
than a third considered themselves middle of the road and just 15 percent
said they were conservative. Not surprisingly, 50 percent of the general
public considers college professors to be more liberal than they are.

Interestingly, this puts most faculty members well to the left of their
students. According to the same source, less than 28 percent of them would
be classified as liberal or far left. More than half consider themselves to
be middle of the road, and 21 percent say they are conservative. A new
Gallup poll suggests that this may even understate the case. It found that
29 percent of those age 18 to 24 consider themselves to be conservatives,
with just 30 percent saying they are liberals.

The Chronicle is not the first to document the leftist orientation of most
university faculty. A survey by pollster Frank Luntz last year found that
just 3 percent of Ivy League professors called themselves Republicans, with
57 percent belonging to the Democratic party. Among those voting in the 2000
election, Al Gore captured 84 percent of their votes. Just 9 percent voted
for George W. Bush, barely more than the 6 percent who voted for Ralph
Nader. Among the population as a whole, the vote for president was almost
evenly split between Bush and Gore.

The irony here is that unlike almost all other workers in society,
university professors are granted tenure ? a lifetime job from which it is
almost impossible to be fired ? precisely in order to guarantee freedom of
expression. But in practice, the tenure process has become the means by
which the Left rigorously weeds out conservatives. In many university
departments, opposition from a single faculty member is all that is
necessary to deny tenure. These days, such a blackball is most likely to be
used against a conservative, especially in disciplines such as sociology,
history, English, and government.

Prof. Robert Maranto of Villanova discussed this insidious practice in the
Baltimore Sun on July 31. ?While colleges strive for ethnic diversity,? he
wrote, ?they actively oppose ideological diversity.? The result is a lack of
meaningful debate on campuses that makes corporate boardrooms a model of
give-and-take. The reason is that in business, those who keep out new ideas
lose market share to competitors. ?But within the ivory tower, professors
can hold dumb ideas for decades with no accountability,? Maranto notes.

Recently, there has been an effort in Colorado to bring some accountability
to the state?s public universities and break the left-wing stranglehold over
them. Gov. Bill Owens, a Republican, has publicly complained about the lack
of political diversity on state campuses: ?I think that if you?re in a
political science department, we ought to strive to make sure that there are
people who understand and who can explain political philosophy from the left
as well as from the right.?

According to the Denver Post, of the 78 political science professors at
state colleges in Colorado, 45 are registered Democrats and just 9 are
Republicans. This means that it is very unlikely that a political science
student will ever hear the subject taught by a Republican. In math, science,
and many other subjects, this doesn?t matter. But in political science it
does. Students are simply not getting a complete education in the field if
they only hear one side to every political issue.

Predictably, the universities scream bloody murder at any suggestion of
adding conservatives to their faculties in order to improve diversity of
opinion. They are all for quotas when it means admitting unqualified
minority students, but allowing students to be taught by a conservative
would somehow be a violation of everything the university stands for, it
seems. 

Of course, universities are right when they say that quotas are no answer to
the problem of liberal bias on campus ? just as they are not the answer to
improving minority enrollment. On the other hand, the taxpayers of Colorado
are within their rights to demand accountability for the $817 million they
will generously give the state?s public universities this year. It is
reasonable for them to ask that they be more than subsidiaries of the
Democratic National Committee.
    

?    
    ?    ?    ?

    ?    ?    ?



---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From gmguddi  Mon Sep 15 15:19:37 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:19:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Now on Conchology Blog
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030915141854.02045220@mail.ilstu.edu>

http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/

-- On the Virtue of a Poetic Middle Path (Or, Response to Ron Silliman and 
Not Punching Your Neighbor, Joan Houlihan)

-- Conchology Blog Almost Gets Sued by a Conchologist from Johns Hopkins

-- Gudding Writes "Songs of the Seashells" as Compassionate Response to 
Litigious Conchologist

-- Copyright Infringement Against New Directions Press

-- Five Most Influential Books on My Notebooks

-- Edgar Allan Poe as Author of Conchology Book

-- Thoughts on the Laureateship: Private Rehearsals for the Public Stage


http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/




From marcus  Mon Sep 15 16:44:21 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:44:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Now on Conchology Blog
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030915141854.02045220@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F65EC65.31103.20B33B4@localhost>

"My trick becomes to live in this mix of contingency and chaos with a 
William Jamesian wonder. I think we increase our dis-ease and donk 
ourselves, as a community, a dis-service by this, icky, constant 
attack. 
I had enough of that on Buff-po,
When I was drinking the whiskey, O."
                  --Gabe Gudding

This is the man who spent much of his time on other poetry lists 
shouting that those who disagreeed with him on whether a war in Iraq 
was justifiable were "goat-fucking war-supporters"; this is the man 
who came to my website and entered "goat fucker" and other 
obscenities in the search engine on that site presumably knowing that 
such searches would be reported to me, the site owner.

This is also the same fellow who has organized his cliques and 
claques to write praiseful things about one another as if they don't 
know one another, pretending to an arm's-length relationship of 
admiration that simply doesn't exist.

This is disingenuousness indeed.









From jvcervantes  Mon Sep 15 19:38:00 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:38:00 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Now on Conchology Blog
References: <3F65EC65.31103.20B33B4@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F664D58.DEB9054F@earthlink.net>

Pardon me for using this list mail to try making a contact.

Marcus:  I've tried sending you a couple of e-mails but they get
bounced, "fatal error" etc.  Mail me backchannel if you are indeed
getting them and your server is just burping.

- Jim



From jvcervantes  Mon Sep 15 19:45:53 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:45:53 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Pluralism
References: <BB8B768F.541E%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F664F31.9155C7DC@earthlink.net>

Source?

- Jim

Paul Lake wrote:
> 
> Poets on the list may not want to follow this, but the poet-profs may want
> to read more on the "Pluralism" issue. For those who do, here's a piece on
> the same topic by a conservative commentator.
> 
> 
> Faculty Tilt
> Our teachers lean left by a sizeable majority.
> 
> This is the time of year when millions of parents send their children off to
> universities. Unfortunately, one price of getting one1s children into a top
> school these days is that they may be subjected to four years of liberal
> propaganda.
> Those in academia like to call the liberal orientation of most college
> faculty a red herring. But objective research continually shows that it is
> not. The latest data appear in the Aug. 29 issue of the Chronicle of Higher
> Education. A solid majority of those teaching at both public and private
> universities described themselves as being either liberal or far left. Less
> than a third considered themselves middle of the road and just 15 percent
> said they were conservative. Not surprisingly, 50 percent of the general
> public considers college professors to be more liberal than they are.
> 
> Interestingly, this puts most faculty members well to the left of their
> students. According to the same source, less than 28 percent of them would
> be classified as liberal or far left. More than half consider themselves to
> be middle of the road, and 21 percent say they are conservative. A new
> Gallup poll suggests that this may even understate the case. It found that
> 29 percent of those age 18 to 24 consider themselves to be conservatives,
> with just 30 percent saying they are liberals.
> 
> The Chronicle is not the first to document the leftist orientation of most
> university faculty. A survey by pollster Frank Luntz last year found that
> just 3 percent of Ivy League professors called themselves Republicans, with
> 57 percent belonging to the Democratic party. Among those voting in the 2000
> election, Al Gore captured 84 percent of their votes. Just 9 percent voted
> for George W. Bush, barely more than the 6 percent who voted for Ralph
> Nader. Among the population as a whole, the vote for president was almost
> evenly split between Bush and Gore.
> 
> The irony here is that unlike almost all other workers in society,
> university professors are granted tenure ? a lifetime job from which it is
> almost impossible to be fired ? precisely in order to guarantee freedom of
> expression. But in practice, the tenure process has become the means by
> which the Left rigorously weeds out conservatives. In many university
> departments, opposition from a single faculty member is all that is
> necessary to deny tenure. These days, such a blackball is most likely to be
> used against a conservative, especially in disciplines such as sociology,
> history, English, and government.
> 
> Prof. Robert Maranto of Villanova discussed this insidious practice in the
> Baltimore Sun on July 31. 3While colleges strive for ethnic diversity,2 he
> wrote, 3they actively oppose ideological diversity.2 The result is a lack of
> meaningful debate on campuses that makes corporate boardrooms a model of
> give-and-take. The reason is that in business, those who keep out new ideas
> lose market share to competitors. 3But within the ivory tower, professors
> can hold dumb ideas for decades with no accountability,2 Maranto notes.
> 
> Recently, there has been an effort in Colorado to bring some accountability
> to the state1s public universities and break the left-wing stranglehold over
> them. Gov. Bill Owens, a Republican, has publicly complained about the lack
> of political diversity on state campuses: 3I think that if you1re in a
> political science department, we ought to strive to make sure that there are
> people who understand and who can explain political philosophy from the left
> as well as from the right.2
> 
> According to the Denver Post, of the 78 political science professors at
> state colleges in Colorado, 45 are registered Democrats and just 9 are
> Republicans. This means that it is very unlikely that a political science
> student will ever hear the subject taught by a Republican. In math, science,
> and many other subjects, this doesn1t matter. But in political science it
> does. Students are simply not getting a complete education in the field if
> they only hear one side to every political issue.
> 
> Predictably, the universities scream bloody murder at any suggestion of
> adding conservatives to their faculties in order to improve diversity of
> opinion. They are all for quotas when it means admitting unqualified
> minority students, but allowing students to be taught by a conservative
> would somehow be a violation of everything the university stands for, it
> seems.
> 
> Of course, universities are right when they say that quotas are no answer to
> the problem of liberal bias on campus ? just as they are not the answer to
> improving minority enrollment. On the other hand, the taxpayers of Colorado
> are within their rights to demand accountability for the $817 million they
> will generously give the state1s public universities this year. It is
> reasonable for them to ask that they be more than subsidiaries of the
> Democratic National Committee.
> 
> 
> ?
>     ?    ?    ?
> 
>     ?    ?    ?
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From anny.ballardini  Tue Sep 16 07:20:16 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:20:16 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] For those living in WAshington
References: <BB8B768F.541E%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu> <3F664F31.9155C7DC@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001601c37c44$819d5ce0$1c1c2dd5@anny>

and the last link is worth visiting, anny

>Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:02:07 -0400
>From: "Laura Gottesman" <lgot at loc.gov>

Please excuse cross-postings:

Rivers, Edens, Empires: Lewis & Clark and the Revealing of America
SYMPOSIUM/Thursday, September 18, 2003, 10:00 a.m.-5:00 p.m.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/lewisandclark/symposium.html

Library of Congress
Coolidge Auditorium
Thomas Jefferson Building
10 First Street S.E. 
Washington, DC.

This event is free and open to the public.
Reservations are requested--Please respond by email: 
L&Crsvp at sipress.si.edu or by phone to (202) 707-5223.

SYMPOSIUM SCHEDULE:
Morning session: Expectations and Realities of the American West  
10:00 a.m. - 12:15 p.m.

James P. Ronda, H.G. Barnard Professor Western American History at the
University of Tulsa:  "Looking West from the East"

Carolyn Gilman, Special Projects Historian at the Missouri Historical
Society and curator of Lewis and Clark: National Bicentennial
Exhibition: "Lewis and Clark Discover the Indians" 

Afternoon session: Cartography and the American West   2:30 p.m.- 5:00
p.m.

John Logan Allen, Professor and Chair of the Department of Geography at
the University of Wyoming: "Geographical Lore on the Eve of the Lewis
and Clark Expedition"

Ralph E. Ehrenberg, former Chief of the Geography and Map Division,
Library of Congress and the Cartographic and Architectural Branch of the
National Archives and Records Administration: "The Eyes of the Army:
Exploratory Mapping of the American West"

A question and answer period will follow each presentation. 

Please RSVP:
email: L&Crsvp at sipress.si.edu  
Phone: (202) 707-5223 

The symposium will be followed by a reception and book signing
sponsored by Smithsonian Books celebrating the publication of  Lewis and
Clark-Across the Divide by Carolyn Gilman, with an introduction by James
P. Ronda. 

An online version of "Rivers, Edens, Empires: Lewis and Clark and the
Revealing of American" was created in conjunction with the current
Library of Congress exhibition--
It may be found at:
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/lewisandclark/lewisandclark.html







From marcus  Tue Sep 16 07:49:50 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 07:49:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] James Cervantes
In-Reply-To: <3F664D58.DEB9054F@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F66C09E.9639.2C64D1@localhost>

> Pardon me for using this list mail to try making a contact.

And pardon me in turn for replying on the list.

> Marcus:  I've tried sending you a couple of e-mails but they get
> bounced, "fatal error" etc.  Mail me backchannel if you are indeed
> getting them and your server is just burping.

I haven't got any backchannel messages from you since 12 September. I 
sent you a reply yesterday, and forwarded that reply to you again 
just now today. Please let me know if you got either email.






From jvcervantes  Tue Sep 16 07:54:00 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:54:00 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: [New-Poetry] James Cervantes]
Message-ID: <3F66F9D7.2CFEE5E2@earthlink.net>

Marcus:  I'm getting mail from dozens of people and three listservs, and
received the one you sent yesterday, but my subsequent responses to you
are getting kicked back, all prefaced thusly:

Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote:
> 
> The original message was received at Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:58:23 -0700 (PDT)
> from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]
> 
>    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> <marcus at designerglass.com>
> 
>    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> 550 5.1.2 <marcus at designerglass.com>... Host unknown (Name server: smtp.mpowercom.net.: host not found)
> 
>   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Reporting-MTA: dns; flavatown.mail.pas.earthlink.net
> Arrival-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:58:23 -0700 (PDT)
> 
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; marcus at designerglass.com
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.2
> Remote-MTA: DNS; smtp.mpowercom.net
> Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:29:35 -0700 (PDT)
> 
>   ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Out of my hands.

- Jim

Marcus Bales wrote:
> 
> > Pardon me for using this list mail to try making a contact.
> 
> And pardon me in turn for replying on the list.
> 
> > Marcus:  I've tried sending you a couple of e-mails but they get
> > bounced, "fatal error" etc.  Mail me backchannel if you are indeed
> > getting them and your server is just burping.
> 
> I haven't got any backchannel messages from you since 12 September. I
> sent you a reply yesterday, and forwarded that reply to you again
> just now today. Please let me know if you got either email.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From marcus  Tue Sep 16 08:11:38 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:11:38 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: [New-Poetry] James Cervantes]
In-Reply-To: <3F66F9D7.2CFEE5E2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F66C5BA.30122.4057ED@localhost>

I'm getting the mail from half a dozen lists, and also dozens of 
individuals, all of which is addressed to marcus at designerglass.com ; 
I can't explain why your mail to just me is bouncing. I'd be happy to 
call you.

Marcus

On 16 Sep 2003 at 4:54, James Cervantes wrote:

> Marcus:  I'm getting mail from dozens of people and three listservs,
> and received the one you sent yesterday, but my subsequent responses
> to you are getting kicked back, all prefaced thusly:
> 
> Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote:
> > 
> > The original message was received at Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:58:23 -0700
> > (PDT) from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]
> > 
> >    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> > <marcus at designerglass.com>
> > 
> >    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> > 550 5.1.2 <marcus at designerglass.com>... Host unknown (Name server:
> > smtp.mpowercom.net.: host not found)
> > 
> >   ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >   ------
> > Reporting-MTA: dns; flavatown.mail.pas.earthlink.net
> > Arrival-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:58:23 -0700 (PDT)
> > 
> > Final-Recipient: RFC822; marcus at designerglass.com
> > Action: failed
> > Status: 5.1.2
> > Remote-MTA: DNS; smtp.mpowercom.net
> > Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:29:35 -0700 (PDT)
> > 
> >   ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >   ------
> 
> Out of my hands.
> 
> - Jim
> 
> Marcus Bales wrote:
> > 
> > > Pardon me for using this list mail to try making a contact.
> > 
> > And pardon me in turn for replying on the list.
> > 
> > > Marcus:  I've tried sending you a couple of e-mails but they get
> > > bounced, "fatal error" etc.  Mail me backchannel if you are indeed
> > > getting them and your server is just burping.
> > 
> > I haven't got any backchannel messages from you since 12 September.
> > I sent you a reply yesterday, and forwarded that reply to you again
> > just now today. Please let me know if you got either email.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 






From jvcervantes  Tue Sep 16 09:39:34 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 06:39:34 -0700
Subject: [Fwd: [New-Poetry] James Cervantes]
References: <3F66C5BA.30122.4057ED@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F671297.D4F25B3B@earthlink.net>


Marcus Bales wrote:
> 
> I'm getting the mail from half a dozen lists, and also dozens of
> individuals, all of which is addressed to marcus at designerglass.com ;
> I can't explain why your mail to just me is bouncing. I'd be happy to
> call you.
> 

O.K., though I'm hard to reach.  480-461-0425 and if that's busy or you
get the robot, try 602-625-4475.  Best times are 2 - 4 p.m. or between 4
- 6 a.m.

The rest of you, forget you saw this, delete, and empty your trash.  Or,
I'll tell Tom Ridge.

- Jim



From paul.lake  Tue Sep 16 11:06:58 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:06:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Pluralism
In-Reply-To: <3F664F31.9155C7DC@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BB8C9142.542E%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/15/03 6:45 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:

> Source?
> 
> - Jim
> 
> Paul Lake wrote:
>> 
>> Poets on the list may not want to follow this, but the poet-profs may want
>> to read more on the "Pluralism" issue. For those who do, here's a piece on
>> the same topic by a conservative commentator.
>> 
>> 
>> Faculty Tilt
>> Our teachers lean left by a sizeable majority.
>> 
>> This is the time of year when millions of parents send their children off to
>> universities. Unfortunately, one price of getting one1s children into a top
>> school these days is that they may be subjected to four years of liberal
>> propaganda.
>> Those in academia like to call the liberal orientation of most college
>> faculty a red herring. But objective research continually shows that it is
>> not. The latest data appear in the Aug. 29 issue of the Chronicle of Higher
>> Education. A solid majority of those teaching at both public and private
>> universities described themselves as being either liberal or far left. Less
>> than a third considered themselves middle of the road and just 15 percent
>> said they were conservative. Not surprisingly, 50 percent of the general
>> public considers college professors to be more liberal than they are.
>> 
>> Interestingly, this puts most faculty members well to the left of their
>> students. According to the same source, less than 28 percent of them would
>> be classified as liberal or far left. More than half consider themselves to
>> be middle of the road, and 21 percent say they are conservative. A new
>> Gallup poll suggests that this may even understate the case. It found that
>> 29 percent of those age 18 to 24 consider themselves to be conservatives,
>> with just 30 percent saying they are liberals.
>> 
>> The Chronicle is not the first to document the leftist orientation of most
>> university faculty. A survey by pollster Frank Luntz last year found that
>> just 3 percent of Ivy League professors called themselves Republicans, with
>> 57 percent belonging to the Democratic party. Among those voting in the 2000
>> election, Al Gore captured 84 percent of their votes. Just 9 percent voted
>> for George W. Bush, barely more than the 6 percent who voted for Ralph
>> Nader. Among the population as a whole, the vote for president was almost
>> evenly split between Bush and Gore.
>> 
>> The irony here is that unlike almost all other workers in society,
>> university professors are granted tenure ? a lifetime job from which it is
>> almost impossible to be fired ? precisely in order to guarantee freedom of
>> expression. But in practice, the tenure process has become the means by
>> which the Left rigorously weeds out conservatives. In many university
>> departments, opposition from a single faculty member is all that is
>> necessary to deny tenure. These days, such a blackball is most likely to be
>> used against a conservative, especially in disciplines such as sociology,
>> history, English, and government.
>> 
>> Prof. Robert Maranto of Villanova discussed this insidious practice in the
>> Baltimore Sun on July 31. 3While colleges strive for ethnic diversity,2 he
>> wrote, 3they actively oppose ideological diversity.2 The result is a lack of
>> meaningful debate on campuses that makes corporate boardrooms a model of
>> give-and-take. The reason is that in business, those who keep out new ideas
>> lose market share to competitors. 3But within the ivory tower, professors
>> can hold dumb ideas for decades with no accountability,2 Maranto notes.
>> 
>> Recently, there has been an effort in Colorado to bring some accountability
>> to the state1s public universities and break the left-wing stranglehold over
>> them. Gov. Bill Owens, a Republican, has publicly complained about the lack
>> of political diversity on state campuses: 3I think that if you1re in a
>> political science department, we ought to strive to make sure that there are
>> people who understand and who can explain political philosophy from the left
>> as well as from the right.2
>> 
>> According to the Denver Post, of the 78 political science professors at
>> state colleges in Colorado, 45 are registered Democrats and just 9 are
>> Republicans. This means that it is very unlikely that a political science
>> student will ever hear the subject taught by a Republican. In math, science,
>> and many other subjects, this doesn1t matter. But in political science it
>> does. Students are simply not getting a complete education in the field if
>> they only hear one side to every political issue.
>> 
>> Predictably, the universities scream bloody murder at any suggestion of
>> adding conservatives to their faculties in order to improve diversity of
>> opinion. They are all for quotas when it means admitting unqualified
>> minority students, but allowing students to be taught by a conservative
>> would somehow be a violation of everything the university stands for, it
>> seems.
>> 
>> Of course, universities are right when they say that quotas are no answer to
>> the problem of liberal bias on campus ? just as they are not the answer to
>> improving minority enrollment. On the other hand, the taxpayers of Colorado
>> are within their rights to demand accountability for the $817 million they
>> will generously give the state1s public universities this year. It is
>> reasonable for them to ask that they be more than subsidiaries of the
>> Democratic National Committee.
>> 
>> 
>> ?
>>     ?    ?    ?
>> 
>>     ?    ?    ?
>> 
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
Yesterday's National Review Online. Can't remember the author's name, which
was unfamiliar to me.

Paul

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From marcus  Tue Sep 16 12:36:30 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:36:30 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: [New-Poetry] James Cervantes]
In-Reply-To: <3F66F9D7.2CFEE5E2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F6703CE.11148.1B5549@localhost>

My isp says they have a variety of reports about some originating 
points not succeeding in delivering to mpowercom.net; they'll call me 
later today with more information, such as whether earthlink is one 
of them and what they plan to do about it, if they can do anything.

Marcus



On 16 Sep 2003 at 4:54, James Cervantes wrote:

> Marcus:  I'm getting mail from dozens of people and three listservs,
> and received the one you sent yesterday, but my subsequent responses
> to you are getting kicked back, all prefaced thusly:
> 
> Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote:
> > 
> > The original message was received at Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:58:23 -0700
> > (PDT) from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]
> > 
> >    ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> > <marcus at designerglass.com>
> > 
> >    ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> > 550 5.1.2 <marcus at designerglass.com>... Host unknown (Name server:
> > smtp.mpowercom.net.: host not found)
> > 
> >   ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >   ------
> > Reporting-MTA: dns; flavatown.mail.pas.earthlink.net
> > Arrival-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:58:23 -0700 (PDT)
> > 
> > Final-Recipient: RFC822; marcus at designerglass.com
> > Action: failed
> > Status: 5.1.2
> > Remote-MTA: DNS; smtp.mpowercom.net
> > Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:29:35 -0700 (PDT)
> > 
> >   ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >   ------
> 
> Out of my hands.
> 
> - Jim
> 
> Marcus Bales wrote:
> > 
> > > Pardon me for using this list mail to try making a contact.
> > 
> > And pardon me in turn for replying on the list.
> > 
> > > Marcus:  I've tried sending you a couple of e-mails but they get
> > > bounced, "fatal error" etc.  Mail me backchannel if you are indeed
> > > getting them and your server is just burping.
> > 
> > I haven't got any backchannel messages from you since 12 September.
> > I sent you a reply yesterday, and forwarded that reply to you again
> > just now today. Please let me know if you got either email.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 






From paul.lake  Tue Sep 16 13:28:48 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:28:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
Message-ID: <BB8CB280.5432%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Below is a link to my recent essay "The Enchanted Loom" in the online
journal *Contemporary Poetry Review*. Last year the essay appeared in print
in *The Southwest Review*. In it, I discuss poetry, postmodern critical
theory, avant-garde poetry, narrative, and poetic meter and form, among
other things. Hope some of you find it of interest.



http://www.cprw.com/Lake/loom.htm


Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From marcus  Tue Sep 16 14:10:53 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:10:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <BB8CB280.5432%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F6719ED.3907.71BCCA@localhost>

Brilliant!
Marcus


On 16 Sep 2003 at 12:28, Paul Lake wrote:

> Below is a link to my recent essay "The Enchanted Loom" in the online
> journal *Contemporary Poetry Review*. Last year the essay appeared in
> print in *The Southwest Review*. In it, I discuss poetry, postmodern
> critical theory, avant-garde poetry, narrative, and poetic meter and
> form, among other things. Hope some of you find it of interest.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.cprw.com/Lake/loom.htm
> 
> 
> Paul Lake
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 






From wjbat  Tue Sep 16 14:31:59 2003
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:31:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <BB8CB280.5432%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <0EB164E7-E874-11D7-8DC6-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

Paul,
Did they scan this?  I can't imagine Willard passing on the typos here; 
maybe you should ask cprw to proofread?

Wendy
  On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 01:28 PM, Paul Lake wrote:

> Below is a link to my recent essay "The Enchanted Loom" in the online
> journal *Contemporary Poetry Review*. Last year the essay appeared in 
> print
> in *The Southwest Review*. In it, I discuss poetry, postmodern critical
> theory, avant-garde poetry, narrative, and poetic meter and form, among
> other things. Hope some of you find it of interest.

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu




From gmguddi  Tue Sep 16 15:10:51 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:10:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] goat f*cker
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030916140326.01fdab00@mail.ilstu.edu>

Hi All. Thanks to eeksy-peeksy for alerting me to more ad hominem from one 
or both of the "Duo of Disingenuousness," both of whose mail goes direct to 
my trash. For those not in the know, and for those who care (I not being 
one of them, frankly), the goat f*cker comment was made months ago on 
another list, not on new-poetry and certainly not in this fiscal year. I 
apologized thoroughly months ago on that list for it and the only one 
disturbed by it was the person who still seems, ahh, very very very 
disturbed by it. As for going to DD's website, wherever that is, and 
searching it for some term, I have no idea what that's all about.

http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/


__________________________________________________

www.antiwar.com (probably the most useful, thorough, and frequently updated 
of the urls pertaining to US foreign policy -- also one of the most 
credible of the avowedly anti-war right-wing for dd websites)
http://www.truthout.org (stories exclusively from mainstream media -- for 
this reason, a very interesting website)
http://www.commondreams.org/ (this compilation website is subtitled 
"breaking news and views for the progressive community")
http://www.buzzflash.com/ (very earnest and sometimes annoying abstracts 
but generally the most sedulously updated website I frequent)
http://www.legitgov.org/ (*very* annoying abstracts and profoundly 
left-bias to this website, but useful stories)
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/?userlang=en (a Russian website rumored to be 
maintained by Russian intelligence. During the major combat in Iraq, this 
webste provided reports based on US-UK military radio communications. 
Sometimes carries and duplicates journalist pieces from western sources. 
Also interesting in that it provides reader-feedback sections. This 
feedback is often very caustic in its criticisms of the US invasion of Iraq 
and of US policy toward Israel and its occupation of Palestine.)
www.indymedia.org (Independent media source, cooperative. Broke the story, 
eg, with photographs, of how staged the toppling of the Saddam statue after 
the "liberation")
http://www.newamericancentury.org/ (this policy website is run by the 
Project for the New American Century, a "neo-con" organization with strong 
political and business and policy ties to the Bush administration. If you 
want to know what the administration is thinking or where it's going, this 
is a good place to start.)
www.onpower.org (a compendium of articles and bibliographic material about 
how US foreign market and military interests have been advanced by the 
advent and creation of national "crises" -- more of a thinktank website 
than a news source, but topical and germane)
http://www.aljazeerah.info/ (an online English version of Al Jazeera, the 
news source out of Qatar, which has won several prestigious international 
awards for its journalism [eg, a recent "anti-censorship award" called the 
"Freedom of Expression Award" given by the London-based Index on 
Censorship]. Of itself it says, "Your Gateway to Understanding the world 
system, American Foreign Policy, and the Arab and Muslim Worlds ..."  Very 
interesting source.)
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/index.htm (Associated Press breaking news. 
Some of these stories are later picked up by newspapers and are then 
altered by those newspapers. Sometimes it's interesting to note how 
newspapers alter the stories. For instance, just a few days ago the New 
York Times removed some statistics from an online story about how many US 
soldiers have been wounded in Iraq since the US invaded the country)

--"That there are men in all countries who get their living by war, and by 
keeping up the quarrels of nations, is as shocking as it is true; but when 
those who are concerned in the government of a country, make it their study 
to sow discord, and cultivate prejudices between nations, it becomes the 
more unpardonable."
         -- Thomas Paine, "The Rights of Man", circa 1792
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From anny.ballardini  Tue Sep 16 17:57:16 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:57:16 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <BB8CB280.5432%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <013801c37c9d$7ee8c6c0$26607550@anny>

From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>

_For the first time I agree with Marcus Bales. An excellent text, which
should be re-read. I pasted below several paragraphs I wanted to highlight.
I sometimes added a brief comment. Again my compliments, hopefully we will
find more writings with a similar complete thoughtful and stable evaluation
of our culture.

At the next level, we find the "software" of the grammatical and syntactic
rules of English. At a still higher level, we find the generic rules of
novelistic fiction. When we read a story or novel, we engage several levels
at once. At the lower levels, we run our eyes across a printed page,
decoding words and their grammatical relationships. At higher levels, we
follow imaginary characters living out their lives in a "virtual" world of
the imagination. Emergent levels include this dramatic unfolding of fictive
lives, the novel's "theme," and the alteration in consciousness we
experience when observing-or reflecting on-the tragic or comic nature of the
imagined experience.

Similarly, the cost for unpacking information in a literary text is a life
spent in a human culture, learning the rules of language and social
behavior. That's why, contra deconstruction, there is always something
outside the text.

_I particularly like this "her" (maybe you were thinking of one of the nine
muses...):

            In contrast to such strict left-mindedness, a poet has to use
her entire brain to write. Taking account of the semantic meaning of words,
their various connotations, their sounds and echoes, and the rhythms they
make, the poet has to engage in a special sort of level-mixing, which
Douglas Hofstadter calls a "tangled hierarchy." He defines a tangled
hierarchy as a situation where different hierarchical levels, such as a
computer's hardware and software, fold into each other in
hierarchy-violating ways.

_It works the other way round with me, and when I play with words first,
then I feel as if I was cheating, which I sometimes do, but in that case my
work seems to me less solid, maybe my right mathematical brain is stronger
than my left; or I also let an unconscious word-flow be transcribed on
paper, that was another game I played, and a mathematical or philosophical
revision was required in order to bring sense to the words. On the other
side the following concept is not fully developed. Many poets have a strong
musical talent which is expressed through language, as a reader I love poems
which are written by keeping sounds in mind, I also like nonsense, sounds
and paradoxes:

  A similar tangle occurs when a poet writes. Poets frequently select words
more for their sound, a low level phenomenon, than for their meaning. Once
having selected a word, the poet then becomes aware of interesting semantic
relationships with others in the poem. After selecting the word for its
rhyme, the poet then has to construct meaningful sentences, images, and
metaphors around it. Through such entangling, the physical sound, or even
typed appearance, of words (which we defined as "hardware") can influence
the poem's "software" of grammar, syntax, metaphor, and argument

_This is very interesting, a positive outlook on what used to doom from the
above-class of the French Thinkers,

This explanation seems to support the paranoid notions of theorists like
Foucault who believe that language-users are puppets controlled by vast
"totalizing" systems handed down from the past.  The truth is subtler and
more interesting.  Though we do have to submit to constraints in order to
communicate, within these limits we have countless opportunities for
creativity and freedom

_As per The Waste Land by Eliot, there is an interesting interpretation done
by Ben Mazer in Fulcrum which makes him very comprehensible, in the end.

_Again, waiting for Paul Lake's next essay to appear,
anny

> Below is a link to my recent essay "The Enchanted Loom" in the online
> journal *Contemporary Poetry Review*. Last year the essay appeared in
print
> in *The Southwest Review*. In it, I discuss poetry, postmodern critical
> theory, avant-garde poetry, narrative, and poetic meter and form, among
> other things. Hope some of you find it of interest.
>
>
>
> http://www.cprw.com/Lake/loom.htm
>
>
> Paul Lake
>
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From marcus  Tue Sep 16 21:09:18 2003
From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 01:09:18 GMT
Subject: [New-Poetry] goat f*cker
Message-ID: <200309170048.h8H0mvST009260@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

> Hi All. Thanks to eeksy-peeksy for alerting me to more ad hominem from one 
> or both of the "Duo of Disingenuousness," both of whose mail goes direct to 
> my trash. For those not in the know, and for those who care (I not being 
> one of them, frankly), the goat f*cker comment was made months ago on 
> another list, not on new-poetry and certainly not in this fiscal year. I 
> apologized thoroughly months ago on that list for it and the only one 
> disturbed by it was the person who still seems, ahh, very very very 
> disturbed by it. As for going to DD's website, wherever that is, and 
> searching it for some term, I have no idea what that's all about.

This goes beyond disingenuousness. I guess Gabe will think that is progress.









From Rsgwynn1  Tue Sep 16 22:36:36 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:36:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harper's
Message-ID: <ba.46870b5f.2c9922b4@cs.com>

It's not on line, but Daniel Anderson's take on the new Norton Anthology of 
Contemporary poetry is worth reading.  It's in the current Harper's, which may 
be uncurrent by now.
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From paul.lake  Wed Sep 17 10:52:00 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:52:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <3F6719ED.3907.71BCCA@localhost>
Message-ID: <BB8DDF40.5440%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Thanks, Marcus.

Paul


on 9/16/03 1:10 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote:

> Brilliant!
> Marcus
> 
> 
> On 16 Sep 2003 at 12:28, Paul Lake wrote:
> 
>> Below is a link to my recent essay "The Enchanted Loom" in the online
>> journal *Contemporary Poetry Review*. Last year the essay appeared in
>> print in *The Southwest Review*. In it, I discuss poetry, postmodern
>> critical theory, avant-garde poetry, narrative, and poetic meter and
>> form, among other things. Hope some of you find it of interest.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.cprw.com/Lake/loom.htm
>> 
>> 
>> Paul Lake
>> 
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From paul.lake  Wed Sep 17 10:53:23 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:53:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <0EB164E7-E874-11D7-8DC6-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <BB8DDF93.5441%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Yikes, haven't read the online version, but the one I sent was typo free.
I'll check the essay later today. Might be a glitch in the software.

Thanks, Wendy.

Paul

on 9/16/03 1:31 PM, Wendy Battin at wjbat at conncoll.edu wrote:

> Paul,
> Did they scan this?  I can't imagine Willard passing on the typos here;
> maybe you should ask cprw to proofread?
> 
> Wendy
> On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 01:28 PM, Paul Lake wrote:
> 
>> Below is a link to my recent essay "The Enchanted Loom" in the online
>> journal *Contemporary Poetry Review*. Last year the essay appeared in
>> print
>> in *The Southwest Review*. In it, I discuss poetry, postmodern critical
>> theory, avant-garde poetry, narrative, and poetic meter and form, among
>> other things. Hope some of you find it of interest.
> 
> Wendy Battin
> wjbat at conncoll.edu
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From GrahamD  Wed Sep 17 10:53:36 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:53:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Williams
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A076@mail.ripon.edu>

Happy birthday to the ghost of William Carlos Williams--

Fine Work with Pitch and Copper

Now they are resting
in the fleckless light
separately in unison

like the sacks
of sifted stone stacked
regularly by twos

about the flat roof
ready after lunch
to be opened and strewn

The copper in eight
foot strips has been
beaten lengthwise

down the center at right
angles and lies ready
to edge the coping

One still chewing
picks up a copper strip
and runs his eye along it.
	--William Carlos Williams


============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From dweinstock  Wed Sep 17 11:17:22 2003
From: dweinstock (David Weinstock)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:17:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Williams
Message-ID: <20030917151722.HCIN10601.mta9.adelphia.net@mail.adelphia.net>

FINE WORK IN PITCH & COPPER is one of my favorite poems in the world. It is so spare and restrained but I can never  forget it. Just last week I saw someone returning to from lunch break to work "still chewing" and flashed back to the poem.

WCW would have been 120 years old today. 

You've all heard that he would scribble poems on prescription blanks in between patient visits. The Middlebury College library special collections department owns some of those prescription blanks, with part of what seems to be a short story Williams was working on.




DAVID WEINSTOCK
240 Woodland Park
Middlebury, VT 05753-1356 USA
802-388-7523 




From paul.lake  Wed Sep 17 11:48:43 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:48:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <013801c37c9d$7ee8c6c0$26607550@anny>
Message-ID: <BB8DEC8A.5445%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Thanks for the good words and favorite quotes, Anny. I've got another essay
under consideration at New England Review that deals with the relationship
of women to poetic and language and form.

Paul


on 9/16/03 4:57 PM, Anny Ballardini at anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote:

> From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> 
> _For the first time I agree with Marcus Bales. An excellent text, which
> should be re-read. I pasted below several paragraphs I wanted to highlight.
> I sometimes added a brief comment. Again my compliments, hopefully we will
> find more writings with a similar complete thoughtful and stable evaluation
> of our culture.
> 
> At the next level, we find the "software" of the grammatical and syntactic
> rules of English. At a still higher level, we find the generic rules of
> novelistic fiction. When we read a story or novel, we engage several levels
> at once. At the lower levels, we run our eyes across a printed page,
> decoding words and their grammatical relationships. At higher levels, we
> follow imaginary characters living out their lives in a "virtual" world of
> the imagination. Emergent levels include this dramatic unfolding of fictive
> lives, the novel's "theme," and the alteration in consciousness we
> experience when observing-or reflecting on-the tragic or comic nature of the
> imagined experience.
> 
> Similarly, the cost for unpacking information in a literary text is a life
> spent in a human culture, learning the rules of language and social
> behavior. That's why, contra deconstruction, there is always something
> outside the text.
> 
> _I particularly like this "her" (maybe you were thinking of one of the nine
> muses...):
> 
>           In contrast to such strict left-mindedness, a poet has to use
> her entire brain to write. Taking account of the semantic meaning of words,
> their various connotations, their sounds and echoes, and the rhythms they
> make, the poet has to engage in a special sort of level-mixing, which
> Douglas Hofstadter calls a "tangled hierarchy." He defines a tangled
> hierarchy as a situation where different hierarchical levels, such as a
> computer's hardware and software, fold into each other in
> hierarchy-violating ways.
> 
> _It works the other way round with me, and when I play with words first,
> then I feel as if I was cheating, which I sometimes do, but in that case my
> work seems to me less solid, maybe my right mathematical brain is stronger
> than my left; or I also let an unconscious word-flow be transcribed on
> paper, that was another game I played, and a mathematical or philosophical
> revision was required in order to bring sense to the words. On the other
> side the following concept is not fully developed. Many poets have a strong
> musical talent which is expressed through language, as a reader I love poems
> which are written by keeping sounds in mind, I also like nonsense, sounds
> and paradoxes:
> 
> A similar tangle occurs when a poet writes. Poets frequently select words
> more for their sound, a low level phenomenon, than for their meaning. Once
> having selected a word, the poet then becomes aware of interesting semantic
> relationships with others in the poem. After selecting the word for its
> rhyme, the poet then has to construct meaningful sentences, images, and
> metaphors around it. Through such entangling, the physical sound, or even
> typed appearance, of words (which we defined as "hardware") can influence
> the poem's "software" of grammar, syntax, metaphor, and argument
> 
> _This is very interesting, a positive outlook on what used to doom from the
> above-class of the French Thinkers,
> 
> This explanation seems to support the paranoid notions of theorists like
> Foucault who believe that language-users are puppets controlled by vast
> "totalizing" systems handed down from the past.  The truth is subtler and
> more interesting.  Though we do have to submit to constraints in order to
> communicate, within these limits we have countless opportunities for
> creativity and freedom
> 
> _As per The Waste Land by Eliot, there is an interesting interpretation done
> by Ben Mazer in Fulcrum which makes him very comprehensible, in the end.
> 
> _Again, waiting for Paul Lake's next essay to appear,
> anny
> 
>> Below is a link to my recent essay "The Enchanted Loom" in the online
>> journal *Contemporary Poetry Review*. Last year the essay appeared in
> print
>> in *The Southwest Review*. In it, I discuss poetry, postmodern critical
>> theory, avant-garde poetry, narrative, and poetic meter and form, among
>> other things. Hope some of you find it of interest.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.cprw.com/Lake/loom.htm
>> 
>> 
>> Paul Lake
>> 
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From paul.lake  Wed Sep 17 11:52:02 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:52:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harper's
In-Reply-To: <ba.46870b5f.2c9922b4@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BB8DED52.5448%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/16/03 9:36 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> It's not on line, but Daniel Anderson's take on the new Norton Anthology of
> Contemporary poetry is worth reading.  It's in the current Harper's, which may
> be uncurrent by now.
> 

I?ll definitely take a look. The new two volume Norton was so thick, so
expensive, so politically correct, and so full of poems of dubious quality
it prompted me to change books for my poetry classes. Now I use the Penguin
Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. Gwynn. 
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From William_Knott  Wed Sep 17 12:33:55 2003
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:33:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1683 - 4 msgs
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF7B@mail.emerson.edu>

Paul Lake's enchanted loom is irrefutable, at least by me. . . 
but my response is similar to the i had re his earlier essay where he "scientifically proved" that meter was more NATURAL than free-verse:
my question: isn't the avantgarde from Baudelaire to the present based on an Anti-natural perspective?  Don't they regard art as essentially Artificial, as opposed to Natural?  One could quote several such assertions to that effect by Baudelaire. . .  From that viewpoint, the more un-natural one's poem is, the more defamiliarized in Shklovsky's term, the better . . . ???

??Bill Knott




-----Original Message-----
From:	new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu]
Sent:	Wed 9/17/2003 12:01 PM
To:	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Cc:	
Subject:	New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1683 - 4 msgs

Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
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than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Williams (Graham, David)
   2. Re: Williams (David Weinstock)
   3. Re: The Enchanted Loom (Paul Lake)
   4. Re: Harper's (Paul Lake)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
To: "'New-Poetry'" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:53:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Williams
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

Happy birthday to the ghost of William Carlos Williams--

Fine Work with Pitch and Copper

Now they are resting
in the fleckless light
separately in unison

like the sacks
of sifted stone stacked
regularly by twos

about the flat roof
ready after lunch
to be opened and strewn

The copper in eight
foot strips has been
beaten lengthwise

down the center at right
angles and lies ready
to edge the coping

One still chewing
picks up a copper strip
and runs his eye along it.
	--William Carlos Williams


============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


--__--__--

Message: 2
From: David Weinstock <dweinstock at adelphia.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Williams
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:17:22 -0400
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu


FINE WORK IN PITCH & COPPER is one of my favorite poems in the world. It is so spare and restrained but I can never  forget it. Just last week I saw someone returning to from lunch break to work "still chewing" and flashed back to the poem.

WCW would have been 120 years old today. 

You've all heard that he would scribble poems on prescription blanks in between patient visits. The Middlebury College library special collections department owns some of those prescription blanks, with part of what seems to be a short story Williams was working on.




DAVID WEINSTOCK
240 Woodland Park
Middlebury, VT 05753-1356 USA
802-388-7523 


--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:48:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
From: Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

Thanks for the good words and favorite quotes, Anny. I've got another essay
under consideration at New England Review that deals with the relationship
of women to poetic and language and form.

Paul


on 9/16/03 4:57 PM, Anny Ballardini at anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote:

> From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> 
> _For the first time I agree with Marcus Bales. An excellent text, which
> should be re-read. I pasted below several paragraphs I wanted to highlight.
> I sometimes added a brief comment. Again my compliments, hopefully we will
> find more writings with a similar complete thoughtful and stable evaluation
> of our culture.
> 
> At the next level, we find the "software" of the grammatical and syntactic
> rules of English. At a still higher level, we find the generic rules of
> novelistic fiction. When we read a story or novel, we engage several levels
> at once. At the lower levels, we run our eyes across a printed page,
> decoding words and their grammatical relationships. At higher levels, we
> follow imaginary characters living out their lives in a "virtual" world of
> the imagination. Emergent levels include this dramatic unfolding of fictive
> lives, the novel's "theme," and the alteration in consciousness we
> experience when observing-or reflecting on-the tragic or comic nature of the
> imagined experience.
> 
> Similarly, the cost for unpacking information in a literary text is a life
> spent in a human culture, learning the rules of language and social
> behavior. That's why, contra deconstruction, there is always something
> outside the text.
> 
> _I particularly like this "her" (maybe you were thinking of one of the nine
> muses...):
> 
>           In contrast to such strict left-mindedness, a poet has to use
> her entire brain to write. Taking account of the semantic meaning of words,
> their various connotations, their sounds and echoes, and the rhythms they
> make, the poet has to engage in a special sort of level-mixing, which
> Douglas Hofstadter calls a "tangled hierarchy." He defines a tangled
> hierarchy as a situation where different hierarchical levels, such as a
> computer's hardware and software, fold into each other in
> hierarchy-violating ways.
> 
> _It works the other way round with me, and when I play with words first,
> then I feel as if I was cheating, which I sometimes do, but in that case my
> work seems to me less solid, maybe my right mathematical brain is stronger
> than my left; or I also let an unconscious word-flow be transcribed on
> paper, that was another game I played, and a mathematical or philosophical
> revision was required in order to bring sense to the words. On the other
> side the following concept is not fully developed. Many poets have a strong
> musical talent which is expressed through language, as a reader I love poems
> which are written by keeping sounds in mind, I also like nonsense, sounds
> and paradoxes:
> 
> A similar tangle occurs when a poet writes. Poets frequently select words
> more for their sound, a low level phenomenon, than for their meaning. Once
> having selected a word, the poet then becomes aware of interesting semantic
> relationships with others in the poem. After selecting the word for its
> rhyme, the poet then has to construct meaningful sentences, images, and
> metaphors around it. Through such entangling, the physical sound, or even
> typed appearance, of words (which we defined as "hardware") can influence
> the poem's "software" of grammar, syntax, metaphor, and argument
> 
> _This is very interesting, a positive outlook on what used to doom from the
> above-class of the French Thinkers,
> 
> This explanation seems to support the paranoid notions of theorists like
> Foucault who believe that language-users are puppets controlled by vast
> "totalizing" systems handed down from the past.  The truth is subtler and
> more interesting.  Though we do have to submit to constraints in order to
> communicate, within these limits we have countless opportunities for
> creativity and freedom
> 
> _As per The Waste Land by Eliot, there is an interesting interpretation done
> by Ben Mazer in Fulcrum which makes him very comprehensible, in the end.
> 
> _Again, waiting for Paul Lake's next essay to appear,
> anny
> 
>> Below is a link to my recent essay "The Enchanted Loom" in the online
>> journal *Contemporary Poetry Review*. Last year the essay appeared in
> print
>> in *The Southwest Review*. In it, I discuss poetry, postmodern critical
>> theory, avant-garde poetry, narrative, and poetic meter and form, among
>> other things. Hope some of you find it of interest.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.cprw.com/Lake/loom.htm
>> 
>> 
>> Paul Lake
>> 
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
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--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:52:02 -0500
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harper's
From: Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3146640723_233644
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

on 9/16/03 9:36 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> It's not on line, but Daniel Anderson's take on the new Norton Anthology =
of
> Contemporary poetry is worth reading.  It's in the current Harper's, whic=
h may
> be uncurrent by now.
>=20

I=B9ll definitely take a look. The new two volume Norton was so thick, so
expensive, so politically correct, and so full of poems of dubious quality
it prompted me to change books for my poetry classes. Now I use the Penguin
Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. Gwynn. 

--B_3146640723_233644
Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [New-Poetry] Harper's</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana">on 9/16/03 9:36 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=
 wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman">It's not on line, but Danie=
l Anderson's take on the new Norton Anthology of Contemporary poetry is wort=
h reading. &nbsp;It's in the current Harper's, which may be uncurrent by now=
.</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
<BR>
I?ll definitely take a look. The new two volume Norton was so thick, =
so expensive, so politically correct, and so full of poems of dubious qualit=
y it prompted me to change books for my poetry classes. Now I use the Pengui=
n Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. Gwynn.</FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3146640723_233644--

---
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_______________________________________________
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From hruggier  Wed Sep 17 12:39:25 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:39:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harper's
References: <BB8DED52.5448%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F688E3C.B43CA5EC@localnet.com>

I just got a flyer for a new volume of Twentieth-Century American Poetry
edited by Gioia, Mason and Schoerke (McGraw Hill?).  It has a companion
volume of "Poetics" too.  Has anybody seen it yet?  I'd like to hear
some comments.

I'm currently using the Cary Nelson text which leans left like a lot of
things academic.   Has good sections of working class poetry and
Japanese internment works I've never seen anywhere else.


Paul Lake wrote:

> on 9/16/03 9:36 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
>
>
>      It's not on line, but Daniel Anderson's take on the new
>      Norton Anthology of Contemporary poetry is worth reading.
>      It's in the current Harper's, which may be uncurrent by now.
>
> I?ll definitely take a look. The new two volume Norton was so thick,
> so expensive, so politically correct, and so full of poems of dubious
> quality it prompted me to change books for my poetry classes. Now I
> use the Penguin Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. Gwynn.
-------------- next part --------------
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From FINDINGTHEWORD  Wed Sep 17 12:43:10 2003
From: FINDINGTHEWORD (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:43:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] the poems of Greta Byrum & Deborah Richards
Message-ID: <07BEA351.4D59B967.20CA8F88@aol.com>

for THE PHILLY SOUND:  New Poetry
click here:  http://phillysound.blogspot.com/





From paul.lake  Wed Sep 17 12:52:21 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:52:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1683 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF7B@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <BB8DFB75.544F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Bill, there is a side to the avant-garde that argues that it is in fact more
natural than the so-called Euclidian forms of formal verse. I'm thinking
here of the Black Mountain school and poets like Levertov who've written
about how their verse is "organic."

Paul Lake



on 9/17/03 11:33 AM, William Knott at William_Knott at emerson.edu wrote:

> Paul Lake's enchanted loom is irrefutable, at least by me. . .
> but my response is similar to the i had re his earlier essay where he
> "scientifically proved" that meter was more NATURAL than free-verse:
> my question: isn't the avantgarde from Baudelaire to the present based on an
> Anti-natural perspective?  Don't they regard art as essentially Artificial, as
> opposed to Natural?  One could quote several such assertions to that effect by
> Baudelaire. . .  From that viewpoint, the more un-natural one's poem is, the
> more defamiliarized in Shklovsky's term, the better . . . ???
> 
> ??Bill Knott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:    new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu]
> Sent:    Wed 9/17/2003 12:01 PM
> To:    new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Cc:    
> Subject:    New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1683 - 4 msgs
> 
> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>  1. Williams (Graham, David)
>  2. Re: Williams (David Weinstock)
>  3. Re: The Enchanted Loom (Paul Lake)
>  4. Re: Harper's (Paul Lake)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
> To: "'New-Poetry'" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:53:36 -0500
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Williams
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> Happy birthday to the ghost of William Carlos Williams--
> 
> Fine Work with Pitch and Copper
> 
> Now they are resting
> in the fleckless light
> separately in unison
> 
> like the sacks
> of sifted stone stacked
> regularly by twos
> 
> about the flat roof
> ready after lunch
> to be opened and strewn
> 
> The copper in eight
> foot strips has been
> beaten lengthwise
> 
> down the center at right
> angles and lies ready
> to edge the coping
> 
> One still chewing
> picks up a copper strip
> and runs his eye along it.
> --William Carlos Williams
> 
> 
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> From: David Weinstock <dweinstock at adelphia.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Williams
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:17:22 -0400
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> FINE WORK IN PITCH & COPPER is one of my favorite poems in the world. It is so
> spare and restrained but I can never  forget it. Just last week I saw someone
> returning to from lunch break to work "still chewing" and flashed back to the
> poem.
> 
> WCW would have been 120 years old today.
> 
> You've all heard that he would scribble poems on prescription blanks in
> between patient visits. The Middlebury College library special collections
> department owns some of those prescription blanks, with part of what seems to
> be a short story Williams was working on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DAVID WEINSTOCK
> 240 Woodland Park
> Middlebury, VT 05753-1356 USA
> 802-388-7523 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:48:43 -0500
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
> From: Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> Thanks for the good words and favorite quotes, Anny. I've got another essay
> under consideration at New England Review that deals with the relationship
> of women to poetic and language and form.
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> on 9/16/03 4:57 PM, Anny Ballardini at anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote:
> 
>> From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
>> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> 
>> _For the first time I agree with Marcus Bales. An excellent text, which
>> should be re-read. I pasted below several paragraphs I wanted to highlight.
>> I sometimes added a brief comment. Again my compliments, hopefully we will
>> find more writings with a similar complete thoughtful and stable evaluation
>> of our culture.
>> 
>> At the next level, we find the "software" of the grammatical and syntactic
>> rules of English. At a still higher level, we find the generic rules of
>> novelistic fiction. When we read a story or novel, we engage several levels
>> at once. At the lower levels, we run our eyes across a printed page,
>> decoding words and their grammatical relationships. At higher levels, we
>> follow imaginary characters living out their lives in a "virtual" world of
>> the imagination. Emergent levels include this dramatic unfolding of fictive
>> lives, the novel's "theme," and the alteration in consciousness we
>> experience when observing-or reflecting on-the tragic or comic nature of the
>> imagined experience.
>> 
>> Similarly, the cost for unpacking information in a literary text is a life
>> spent in a human culture, learning the rules of language and social
>> behavior. That's why, contra deconstruction, there is always something
>> outside the text.
>> 
>> _I particularly like this "her" (maybe you were thinking of one of the nine
>> muses...):
>> 
>>           In contrast to such strict left-mindedness, a poet has to use
>> her entire brain to write. Taking account of the semantic meaning of words,
>> their various connotations, their sounds and echoes, and the rhythms they
>> make, the poet has to engage in a special sort of level-mixing, which
>> Douglas Hofstadter calls a "tangled hierarchy." He defines a tangled
>> hierarchy as a situation where different hierarchical levels, such as a
>> computer's hardware and software, fold into each other in
>> hierarchy-violating ways.
>> 
>> _It works the other way round with me, and when I play with words first,
>> then I feel as if I was cheating, which I sometimes do, but in that case my
>> work seems to me less solid, maybe my right mathematical brain is stronger
>> than my left; or I also let an unconscious word-flow be transcribed on
>> paper, that was another game I played, and a mathematical or philosophical
>> revision was required in order to bring sense to the words. On the other
>> side the following concept is not fully developed. Many poets have a strong
>> musical talent which is expressed through language, as a reader I love poems
>> which are written by keeping sounds in mind, I also like nonsense, sounds
>> and paradoxes:
>> 
>> A similar tangle occurs when a poet writes. Poets frequently select words
>> more for their sound, a low level phenomenon, than for their meaning. Once
>> having selected a word, the poet then becomes aware of interesting semantic
>> relationships with others in the poem. After selecting the word for its
>> rhyme, the poet then has to construct meaningful sentences, images, and
>> metaphors around it. Through such entangling, the physical sound, or even
>> typed appearance, of words (which we defined as "hardware") can influence
>> the poem's "software" of grammar, syntax, metaphor, and argument
>> 
>> _This is very interesting, a positive outlook on what used to doom from the
>> above-class of the French Thinkers,
>> 
>> This explanation seems to support the paranoid notions of theorists like
>> Foucault who believe that language-users are puppets controlled by vast
>> "totalizing" systems handed down from the past.  The truth is subtler and
>> more interesting.  Though we do have to submit to constraints in order to
>> communicate, within these limits we have countless opportunities for
>> creativity and freedom
>> 
>> _As per The Waste Land by Eliot, there is an interesting interpretation done
>> by Ben Mazer in Fulcrum which makes him very comprehensible, in the end.
>> 
>> _Again, waiting for Paul Lake's next essay to appear,
>> anny
>> 
>>> Below is a link to my recent essay "The Enchanted Loom" in the online
>>> journal *Contemporary Poetry Review*. Last year the essay appeared in
>> print
>>> in *The Southwest Review*. In it, I discuss poetry, postmodern critical
>>> theory, avant-garde poetry, narrative, and poetic meter and form, among
>>> other things. Hope some of you find it of interest.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://www.cprw.com/Lake/loom.htm
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Paul Lake
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>> 
>> 
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:52:02 -0500
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harper's
> From: Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
>> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
> this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
> 
> --B_3146640723_233644
> Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> on 9/16/03 9:36 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> 
>> It's not on line, but Daniel Anderson's take on the new Norton Anthology =
> of
>> Contemporary poetry is worth reading.  It's in the current Harper's, whic=
> h may
>> be uncurrent by now.
>> =20
> 
> I=B9ll definitely take a look. The new two volume Norton was so thick, so
> expensive, so politically correct, and so full of poems of dubious quality
> it prompted me to change books for my poetry classes. Now I use the Penguin
> Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. Gwynn.
> 
> --B_3146640723_233644
> Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> <HTML>
> <HEAD>
> <TITLE>Re: [New-Poetry] Harper's</TITLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY>
> <FONT FACE=3D"Verdana">on 9/16/03 9:36 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=
> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> </FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman">It's not on line, but Danie=
> l Anderson's take on the new Norton Anthology of Contemporary poetry is wort=
> h reading. &nbsp;It's in the current Harper's, which may be uncurrent by now=
> .</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
> <BR>
> I?ll definitely take a look. The new two volume Norton was so thick, =
> so expensive, so politically correct, and so full of poems of dubious qualit=
> y it prompted me to change books for my poetry classes. Now I use the Pengui=
> n Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. Gwynn.</FONT>
> </BODY>
> </HTML>
> 
> 
> --B_3146640723_233644--
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> End of New-Poetry Digest
> 
> 
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From paul.lake  Wed Sep 17 13:05:02 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:05:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1683 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF7B@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <BB8DFE6E.5451%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Bill, a further thought on the topic you raised. Charles Olson also said he
was returning poetry to the "ear" and the "breath" by writing Projective
Verse--a way of saying he was bringing verse back to nature.

I find the whole nature artifice distinction a bit muddled. Anytime a human
being makes something--say a suspension bridge--the result must take nature
into account and conform to its laws. In building a bridge, the engineer has
to take into account the law of gravity and the tensile strength of his
materials so when a car drives across it it holds up.  The problem with some
of the artifices of the avant-garde is that they create blue prints by
ignoring such considerations and wind up with a verbal artifice that fails
to communicate thought and feeling.

Paul Lake



on 9/17/03 11:33 AM, William Knott at William_Knott at emerson.edu wrote:

> Paul Lake's enchanted loom is irrefutable, at least by me. . .
> but my response is similar to the i had re his earlier essay where he
> "scientifically proved" that meter was more NATURAL than free-verse:
> my question: isn't the avantgarde from Baudelaire to the present based on an
> Anti-natural perspective?  Don't they regard art as essentially Artificial, as
> opposed to Natural?  One could quote several such assertions to that effect by
> Baudelaire. . .  From that viewpoint, the more un-natural one's poem is, the
> more defamiliarized in Shklovsky's term, the better . . . ???
> 
> ??Bill Knott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:    new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu]
> Sent:    Wed 9/17/2003 12:01 PM
> To:    new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Cc:    
> Subject:    New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1683 - 4 msgs
> 
> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>  1. Williams (Graham, David)
>  2. Re: Williams (David Weinstock)
>  3. Re: The Enchanted Loom (Paul Lake)
>  4. Re: Harper's (Paul Lake)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
> To: "'New-Poetry'" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:53:36 -0500
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Williams
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> Happy birthday to the ghost of William Carlos Williams--
> 
> Fine Work with Pitch and Copper
> 
> Now they are resting
> in the fleckless light
> separately in unison
> 
> like the sacks
> of sifted stone stacked
> regularly by twos
> 
> about the flat roof
> ready after lunch
> to be opened and strewn
> 
> The copper in eight
> foot strips has been
> beaten lengthwise
> 
> down the center at right
> angles and lies ready
> to edge the coping
> 
> One still chewing
> picks up a copper strip
> and runs his eye along it.
> --William Carlos Williams
> 
> 
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> From: David Weinstock <dweinstock at adelphia.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Williams
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:17:22 -0400
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> FINE WORK IN PITCH & COPPER is one of my favorite poems in the world. It is so
> spare and restrained but I can never  forget it. Just last week I saw someone
> returning to from lunch break to work "still chewing" and flashed back to the
> poem.
> 
> WCW would have been 120 years old today.
> 
> You've all heard that he would scribble poems on prescription blanks in
> between patient visits. The Middlebury College library special collections
> department owns some of those prescription blanks, with part of what seems to
> be a short story Williams was working on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DAVID WEINSTOCK
> 240 Woodland Park
> Middlebury, VT 05753-1356 USA
> 802-388-7523 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:48:43 -0500
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
> From: Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> Thanks for the good words and favorite quotes, Anny. I've got another essay
> under consideration at New England Review that deals with the relationship
> of women to poetic and language and form.
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> on 9/16/03 4:57 PM, Anny Ballardini at anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote:
> 
>> From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
>> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> 
>> _For the first time I agree with Marcus Bales. An excellent text, which
>> should be re-read. I pasted below several paragraphs I wanted to highlight.
>> I sometimes added a brief comment. Again my compliments, hopefully we will
>> find more writings with a similar complete thoughtful and stable evaluation
>> of our culture.
>> 
>> At the next level, we find the "software" of the grammatical and syntactic
>> rules of English. At a still higher level, we find the generic rules of
>> novelistic fiction. When we read a story or novel, we engage several levels
>> at once. At the lower levels, we run our eyes across a printed page,
>> decoding words and their grammatical relationships. At higher levels, we
>> follow imaginary characters living out their lives in a "virtual" world of
>> the imagination. Emergent levels include this dramatic unfolding of fictive
>> lives, the novel's "theme," and the alteration in consciousness we
>> experience when observing-or reflecting on-the tragic or comic nature of the
>> imagined experience.
>> 
>> Similarly, the cost for unpacking information in a literary text is a life
>> spent in a human culture, learning the rules of language and social
>> behavior. That's why, contra deconstruction, there is always something
>> outside the text.
>> 
>> _I particularly like this "her" (maybe you were thinking of one of the nine
>> muses...):
>> 
>>           In contrast to such strict left-mindedness, a poet has to use
>> her entire brain to write. Taking account of the semantic meaning of words,
>> their various connotations, their sounds and echoes, and the rhythms they
>> make, the poet has to engage in a special sort of level-mixing, which
>> Douglas Hofstadter calls a "tangled hierarchy." He defines a tangled
>> hierarchy as a situation where different hierarchical levels, such as a
>> computer's hardware and software, fold into each other in
>> hierarchy-violating ways.
>> 
>> _It works the other way round with me, and when I play with words first,
>> then I feel as if I was cheating, which I sometimes do, but in that case my
>> work seems to me less solid, maybe my right mathematical brain is stronger
>> than my left; or I also let an unconscious word-flow be transcribed on
>> paper, that was another game I played, and a mathematical or philosophical
>> revision was required in order to bring sense to the words. On the other
>> side the following concept is not fully developed. Many poets have a strong
>> musical talent which is expressed through language, as a reader I love poems
>> which are written by keeping sounds in mind, I also like nonsense, sounds
>> and paradoxes:
>> 
>> A similar tangle occurs when a poet writes. Poets frequently select words
>> more for their sound, a low level phenomenon, than for their meaning. Once
>> having selected a word, the poet then becomes aware of interesting semantic
>> relationships with others in the poem. After selecting the word for its
>> rhyme, the poet then has to construct meaningful sentences, images, and
>> metaphors around it. Through such entangling, the physical sound, or even
>> typed appearance, of words (which we defined as "hardware") can influence
>> the poem's "software" of grammar, syntax, metaphor, and argument
>> 
>> _This is very interesting, a positive outlook on what used to doom from the
>> above-class of the French Thinkers,
>> 
>> This explanation seems to support the paranoid notions of theorists like
>> Foucault who believe that language-users are puppets controlled by vast
>> "totalizing" systems handed down from the past.  The truth is subtler and
>> more interesting.  Though we do have to submit to constraints in order to
>> communicate, within these limits we have countless opportunities for
>> creativity and freedom
>> 
>> _As per The Waste Land by Eliot, there is an interesting interpretation done
>> by Ben Mazer in Fulcrum which makes him very comprehensible, in the end.
>> 
>> _Again, waiting for Paul Lake's next essay to appear,
>> anny
>> 
>>> Below is a link to my recent essay "The Enchanted Loom" in the online
>>> journal *Contemporary Poetry Review*. Last year the essay appeared in
>> print
>>> in *The Southwest Review*. In it, I discuss poetry, postmodern critical
>>> theory, avant-garde poetry, narrative, and poetic meter and form, among
>>> other things. Hope some of you find it of interest.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://www.cprw.com/Lake/loom.htm
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Paul Lake
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>> 
>> 
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:52:02 -0500
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harper's
> From: Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
>> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
> this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
> 
> --B_3146640723_233644
> Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> on 9/16/03 9:36 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> 
>> It's not on line, but Daniel Anderson's take on the new Norton Anthology =
> of
>> Contemporary poetry is worth reading.  It's in the current Harper's, whic=
> h may
>> be uncurrent by now.
>> =20
> 
> I=B9ll definitely take a look. The new two volume Norton was so thick, so
> expensive, so politically correct, and so full of poems of dubious quality
> it prompted me to change books for my poetry classes. Now I use the Penguin
> Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. Gwynn.
> 
> --B_3146640723_233644
> Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> <HTML>
> <HEAD>
> <TITLE>Re: [New-Poetry] Harper's</TITLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY>
> <FONT FACE=3D"Verdana">on 9/16/03 9:36 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=
> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> </FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman">It's not on line, but Danie=
> l Anderson's take on the new Norton Anthology of Contemporary poetry is wort=
> h reading. &nbsp;It's in the current Harper's, which may be uncurrent by now=
> .</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
> <BR>
> I?ll definitely take a look. The new two volume Norton was so thick, =
> so expensive, so politically correct, and so full of poems of dubious qualit=
> y it prompted me to change books for my poetry classes. Now I use the Pengui=
> n Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. Gwynn.</FONT>
> </BODY>
> </HTML>
> 
> 
> --B_3146640723_233644--
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> End of New-Poetry Digest
> 
> 
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 17 14:18:55 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:18:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harper's
Message-ID: <159.24b6842f.2c99ff8f@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/17/2003 11:01:29 AM Central Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: 
> Now I use the Penguin Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. 
> Gwynn.
And the Penguin Contemporary American Poetry is in the works.
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From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 17 14:18:22 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:18:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harper's
Message-ID: <18c.1fcadd88.2c99ff6e@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/17/2003 11:01:29 AM Central Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: 
> Now I use the Penguin Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. 
> Gwynn.
That'll work.
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From gmguddi  Wed Sep 17 14:42:35 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:42:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to bill
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF7B@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030917132554.020a47d8@mail.ilstu.edu>

Bill, not to put too fine a point on it, but one response to your questions 
is this: there are many contemporary writers out there who'd be considered 
as, or self-identify as, avant-garde, and they can't be lumped easily into 
a "they" that can be generalized about. It's a commonly made point. And 
each of these groups would probably have a different answer as to whether 
they're natural, anti-natural, or just outright indifferent to the question.

As far as I understand a number of writers who self-identify as avant-garde 
or post-avant or whathaveyou, some would reject any aesthetic that claims 
access to the Natural, the "Authentic" poem, as a dubious, aesthetically 
presumptuous, ahistorical, Kantian, and politically suspect move. They (and 
remember I'm just talking about the writers whose ideas I know) would, as 
far as I understand it, also reject the idea of "more 
defamiliarized=better," doing so because they'd reject the idea of 
"better," preferring instead a relativistic community-based idea of 
use-value that acknowledges that such labels as "better poem" "worse poem" 
"good poem" "bad poem" are constantly shifting as time and community 
relations shift.

There are glaring exceptions even to the above para. I think of some Black 
Mtn writers, eg Creeley eg, who complicate the idea of the "real" poem, the 
authentic (which I construe as the natural) while embracing it.

Gabe

At 12:33 PM 9/17/2003 -0400, William Knott wrote:

>but my response is similar to the i had re his earlier essay where he 
>"scientifically proved" that meter was more NATURAL than free-verse:
>my question: isn't the avantgarde from Baudelaire to the present based on 
>an Anti-natural perspective?  Don't they regard art as essentially 
>Artificial, as opposed to Natural?  One could quote several such 
>assertions to that effect by Baudelaire. . .  From that viewpoint, the 
>more un-natural one's poem is, the more defamiliarized in Shklovsky's 
>term, the better . . . ???
>
>??Bill Knott





From marcus  Wed Sep 17 16:14:25 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:14:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1683 - 4 msgs
In-Reply-To: <BB8DFE6E.5451%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF7B@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <3F688861.25588.445641@localhost>

On 17 Sep 2003 at 12:05, Paul Lake wrote:
> I find the whole nature artifice distinction a bit muddled. Anytime a
> human being makes something--say a suspension bridge--the result must
> take nature into account and conform to its laws. In building a
> bridge, the engineer has to take into account the law of gravity and
> the tensile strength of his materials so when a car drives across it
> it holds up.  The problem with some of the artifices of the
> avant-garde is that they create blue prints by ignoring such
> considerations and wind up with a verbal artifice that fails to
> communicate thought and feeling.

Well said.

Marcus






From tscotpeterson  Wed Sep 17 16:31:32 2003
From: tscotpeterson (Tim Peterson)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:31:32 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] can we have our ball back? TUCSON issue now online!
Message-ID: <Law14-F86W9T8xsjKV0000089f4@hotmail.com>

now online:

*

TUCSON issue of "can we have our ball back?"

Edited by Tim Peterson

*

featuring:

Charles Alexander

Dan Featherston

Sheila Murphy

Tenney Nathanson

Barbara Cully

Lisa Cooper

Matt Rotando

Frances Sjoberg

Jason Zuzga

(and many others!)

http://www.canwehaveourballback.com/azindex.htm

_________________________________________________________________
Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage.  
http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es




From anny.ballardini  Wed Sep 17 16:59:33 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:59:33 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <BB8DEC8A.5445%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <007501c37d5e$99169e20$9c737450@anny>

Under consideration means that it will soon be online, is this right? If
yes, let us know when it appears,
best, anny

From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> Thanks for the good words and favorite quotes, Anny. I've got another
essay
> under consideration at New England Review that deals with the relationship
> of women to poetic and language and form.
>





From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 17 17:16:40 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:16:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harper's
Message-ID: <77.1904937c.2c9a2938@cs.com>

http://www.mhhe.com/catalogs/0072400196.mhtml

This is the flyer for the Gioia/Mason/Schoerke contemporary poetry anthology.
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From bobgrumman  Wed Sep 17 20:19:34 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:19:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <BB8DDF40.5440%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <01b601c37d7a$8a810820$36befea9@j1c1k6>

> Brilliant!
> Marcus

Just one comment on the essay:  All artists have two problems.  Being
understood is only one of them.  The other is avoiding being understood too
easily.  The aesthetic avant garde, by whatever name, worries more about the
latter than the conventional do, that's all.

--Bob G.




> On 16 Sep 2003 at 12:28, Paul Lake wrote:
>
> > Below is a link to my recent essay "The Enchanted Loom" in the online
> > journal *Contemporary Poetry Review*. Last year the essay appeared in
> > print in *The Southwest Review*. In it, I discuss poetry, postmodern
> > critical theory, avant-garde poetry, narrative, and poetic meter and
> > form, among other things. Hope some of you find it of interest.





From bobgrumman  Wed Sep 17 20:25:07 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:25:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Williams
References: <20030917151722.HCIN10601.mta9.adelphia.net@mail.adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <01e301c37d7b$50dcc180$36befea9@j1c1k6>

Weird: for about a day, the post that finally made it to New-Poetry a few
minutes ago got sent back every time I sent it out.

Now an observation about the Williams poem, which I also like.  I find it an
interestingly incorrect haiku; that is, it seems a haiku with far too many
words that nonetheless needs them all for full effect.






From mandolin  Wed Sep 17 20:39:42 2003
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:39:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <01b601c37d7a$8a810820$36befea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <97C35672-E970-11D7-BE38-000A95E985A4@mac.com>

On Wednesday, Sep 17, 2003, at 20:19 US/Eastern, Bob Grumman wrote:

> Just one comment on the essay:  All artists have two problems.  Being
> understood is only one of them.  The other is avoiding being 
> understood too
> easily.  The aesthetic avant garde, by whatever name, worries more 
> about the
> latter than the conventional do, that's all.

There are at least two reasons why one native speaker of a language may 
find another easy to understand: the content (emotional or 
intellectual) may be intrinsically simple or well-known, or the 
language may be used so skillfully as to make even difficult matter 
clear. Only the first is potentially a problem for the artist. The 
second is a triumph.

Michael




From bobgrumman  Wed Sep 17 22:51:35 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:51:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <97C35672-E970-11D7-BE38-000A95E985A4@mac.com>
Message-ID: <02a101c37d8f$c6dd67e0$36befea9@j1c1k6>

> > Just one comment on the essay:  All artists have two problems.  Being
> > understood is only one of them.  The other is avoiding being
> > understood too
> > easily.  The aesthetic avant garde, by whatever name, worries more
> > about the
> > latter than the conventional do, that's all.
>
> There are at least two reasons why one native speaker of a language may
> find another easy to understand: the content (emotional or
> intellectual) may be intrinsically simple or well-known, or the
> language may be used so skillfully as to make even difficult matter
> clear. Only the first is potentially a problem for the artist. The
> second is a triumph.
>
> Michael

I can only repeat what I said: making difficult matter clear is fine--so
long as the poet doesn't make it too easily understood.

--Bob G.




From MillB  Wed Sep 17 22:55:44 2003
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:55:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harper's
Message-ID: <11a.284e86b1.2c9a78b0@aol.com>

Has anyone read the essays about essay anthologies that have appeared in 
Harper's by Christina Nehring?
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From grahamd  Wed Sep 17 22:59:20 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 21:59:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] As You Like It
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030917132554.020a47d8@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <BB8E89B7.44AE%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I've examined my soul and find I don't much care whether metrical verse is
more "natural" than other verse, even if terms could be adequately defined;
but it seems simply a truism that all art is, well, artificial:  shaped,
heightened, stylized, etc., using the time-honored materials.

That fact doesn't seem to lead necessarily to conclusions about whether it's
a good idea to employ conventional syntax or not, say; that would be a
rhetorical matter, relative to what one hopes to communicate, to which
audience, with what purpose, etc.  Which I take it is one point Paul Lake is
raising:  what are avant-gardists hoping to communicate, to whom, and why?
Very valid questions.

I also think that Gabe makes a highly pertinent point.  When experimental,
language-centered, avant-ish or post-whatever poets object to being lumped
together with distinctions blurred, that's more than understandable.  So,
for example, if Ron Silliman assures me that Jorie Graham is not a language
poet, fine, I'll take his word.  I haven't learned much about Jorie Graham
thereby, but the point seems worth conceding.

Yet there are a couple problems usually lurking, seems to me.  One is that,
from where I sit, it seems that many poets on the other side of this
contested equator have no qualms about lumping together mainstream poets,
blurring distinctions, etc.  The effect is to turn poets as different from
each other as, say, Philip Levine and Billy Collins, into some monolithic
Other-- whether the label be quietude, pre-modernism, naivete, or some other
coinage.  That's at least as reductive as labeling any poem without a firm
narrative basis or conventional syntax as a language poem, isn't it?

The related problem is that by defining yourself as post-X, you are already
close to committing the same sin you would decry in others, lumping
*yourself* together with others in reaction to X.  If terms like
"experimental" and "avant-garde" mean anything, they mean it in relation to
some reasonably settled and presumably still-kicking Tradition.  (For
without the oppositional stance, which demands something real to oppose,
wouldn't much of the lifeblood leak out?)

I don't know exactly where all this leads me-- I'm happy enough to be
labeled a mainstreamer, myself, if that could be done without an implied
sneer or reduction.  Still, when I meet critical stances that want to bully
me out of my fondness for things like narrative, I wish I could always
manage the proper response, which would be a sweet small smile.  We'll see
whether readers of the future tire of narrative values; in the meantime, you
pays your money and you takes your choice.


====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


> From: Gabriel Gudding <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:42:35 -0500
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu, new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: [New-Poetry] response to bill
> 
> 
> Bill, not to put too fine a point on it, but one response to your
> questions 
> is this: there are many contemporary writers out there who'd be
> considered 
> as, or self-identify as, avant-garde, and they can't be lumped easily
> into 
> a "they" that can be generalized about. It's a commonly made point. And
> each of these groups would probably have a different answer as to
> whether 
> they're natural, anti-natural, or just outright indifferent to the
> question.
> 
> As far as I understand a number of writers who self-identify as
> avant-garde 
> or post-avant or whathaveyou, some would reject any aesthetic that
> claims 
> access to the Natural, the "Authentic" poem, as a dubious, aesthetically
> 
> presumptuous, ahistorical, Kantian, and politically suspect move. . . . . . .
.
> 
> Gabe
> 




From halvard  Wed Sep 17 23:17:18 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 23:17:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] As You Like It
In-Reply-To: <BB8E89B7.44AE%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEHOHFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    The related problem is that by defining yourself as post-X, you are already
{    close to committing the same sin you would decry in others, lumping
{    *yourself* together with others in reaction to X.

David, I tried lumping myself once, but my head
was so hard I broke my fist.

Hal         You are leaving the American Sector.
               Vous sortez du Secteur Am?ricain.
               Sie verlassen den Amerikanischen Sektor.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From bobgrumman  Thu Sep 18 06:29:55 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 06:29:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] As You Like It
References: <BB8E89B7.44AE%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00a201c37dcf$ce4d98c0$8500fea9@j1c1k6>

> I've examined my soul and find I don't much care whether metrical verse is
> more "natural" than other verse, even if terms could be adequately
defined;
> but it seems simply a truism that all art is, well, artificial:  shaped,
> heightened, stylized, etc., using the time-honored materials.

I agree.  Most non-poetic use of language is "unnatural," as well.  Since I
believe grammar is innate, I do think simple sentences are "natural," but
I'd enjoy reading someone who's studied the matter to tell me where natural
language use leaves off and artificial language use begins.

> That fact doesn't seem to lead necessarily to conclusions about whether
it's
> a good idea to employ conventional syntax or not, say; that would be a
> rhetorical matter, relative to what one hopes to communicate, to which
> audience, with what purpose, etc.  Which I take it is one point Paul Lake
is
> raising:  what are avant-gardists hoping to communicate, to whom, and why?
> Very valid questions.

I think this is another dividing point between one kind of poet and another:
one more concerned with what is communicated versus one more concerned with
what is made.  Without a decent list of schools of poetry to help me, or
time to really think it through, I would say that burstnorm poets want to
communicate everything conventional poets do PLUS extra-verbal sound (sound
beyond words' pronunciation); extra-verbal visual data (visual data beyond
the appearance of letters on the page); a concern with grammar as
grammar--as subject rather than as tool (to express what language poets do
badly);

> I also think that Gabe makes a highly pertinent point.  When experimental,
> language-centered, avant-ish or post-whatever poets object to being lumped
> together with distinctions blurred, that's more than understandable.  So,
> for example, if Ron Silliman assures me that Jorie Graham is not a
language
> poet, fine, I'll take his word.  I haven't learned much about Jorie Graham
> thereby, but the point seems worth conceding.
>
> Yet there are a couple problems usually lurking, seems to me.  One is
that,
> from where I sit, it seems that many poets on the other side of this
> contested equator have no qualms about lumping together mainstream poets,
> blurring distinctions, etc.

I'd love it if someone against this lumping would present a list of
mainstream schools of poetry that unlumped them.

>The effect is to turn poets as different from
> each other as, say, Philip Levine and Billy Collins, into some monolithic
> Other-- whether the label be quietude, pre-modernism, naivete, or some
other
> coinage.  That's at least as reductive as labeling any poem without a firm
> narrative basis or conventional syntax as a language poem, isn't it?

It depends, of course.  If one is lumping poets together on the basis of
their poetic devices, it seems to me perfectly reasonable.  Mainstream poets
all use the toolkit of Robert Lowell (to use as an example the first
well-known poet I could think of who wrote both metrical verse and standard
free verse).  If lumping them together on the basis of subject matter or
tone, it makes less sense.  But categorizing on the basis of those two, or
related, qualities seems unhelpful, to me.

I would ask David if he really thinks Levine and Collins are as different
from one another as poets as Karl Kempton and Ron Silliman are.  Kempton is
a visual poet (mainly), Silliman a language poet (mainly).

--Bob G.

> The related problem is that by defining yourself as post-X, you are
already
> close to committing the same sin you would decry in others, lumping
> *yourself* together with others in reaction to X.  If terms like
> "experimental" and "avant-garde" mean anything, they mean it in relation
to
> some reasonably settled and presumably still-kicking Tradition.  (For
> without the oppositional stance, which demands something real to oppose,
> wouldn't much of the lifeblood leak out?)
>
> I don't know exactly where all this leads me-- I'm happy enough to be
> labeled a mainstreamer, myself, if that could be done without an implied
> sneer or reduction.  Still, when I meet critical stances that want to
bully
> me out of my fondness for things like narrative, I wish I could always
> manage the proper response, which would be a sweet small smile.  We'll see
> whether readers of the future tire of narrative values; in the meantime,
you
> pays your money and you takes your choice.






From marcus  Thu Sep 18 08:30:36 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:30:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <01b601c37d7a$8a810820$36befea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3F696D2C.22648.36C465@localhost>

On 17 Sep 2003 at 20:19, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Just one comment on [Paul Lake's] essay:  All artists have two problems.  Being
> understood is only one of them.  The other is avoiding being
> understood too easily.  The aesthetic avant garde, by whatever name,
> worries more about the latter than the conventional do, that's all.

On Understanding and the Avant Garde

The people who make up
the aesthetic avant garde, 
by whatever name, 
imagine that writing to be 
understood is an easy thing;
the people who make up
the aesthetic avant garde, 
by whatever name, 
do not try to write 
anything easy to understand; 
the people who make up
the aesthetic avant garde, 
by whatever name, 
don't find writing to be understood 
so easy that they have come to fear 
being understood too easily, rather 
the people who make up
the aesthetic avant garde, 
by whatever name, 
couldn't write to be understood 
if they wanted to;
and those people who make up
the aesthetic avant garde, 
by whatever name, 
work very hard
to make a virtue 
of that vice.






From William_Knott  Thu Sep 18 09:41:29 2003
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:41:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1685 - 11 msgs
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF7C@mail.emerson.edu>

a few quotes from Wilde on Art versus Nature:
"The more we study Art, the less we care for Nature."
"Art is our spirited protest, our gallant attempt to teach Nature her proper place."
"Nothing is more evident than that Nature hates Mind."
"One touch of Nature may make the whole world kin, but two touches of Nature will destroy any work of Art."
"A really well-made buttonhole is the only link between Art and Nature."

etc etc: Wilde is echoing the Symbolist creed here and elsewhere. . . .

???my point is: the mission, the purpose, the raisondetre of the Avantgarde is to deviate from the Norm, however the latter is defined. . . . That's why Paz (in "Children of the Mire") calls Modernism the tradition-against-itself (I'm paraphrasing). . . .
you're not taking into account the attractiveness of perversity, the sinful allure of the Avantgarde (obviously i'm using these terms ironically, not pejoratively). . . .
If you, Paul Lake, could scientifically prove beyond any doubt that Meter and Rhyme and Realism are inherently Natural and Normal and Right, all your efforts would simply provide the Avantgarde with even more justifications for choosing the Un-Natural, the Un-Normal, the Perverse. . . .
Given the USA tradition of rebellious individualism, and that Emersonism is the American Religion (Harold Bloom). . . .

Paz writes (Children, p.37) "The history of modern poetry is that of the oscillation between revolutionary temptation and religious temptation."

Temptation: exactly.

Milosz in "The Witness of Poetry" (p.50) writes of the "triumph of the scientific Weltanschauung. . . . Does this mean that by taking science for its guide the human species is now reaching maturity? (p.53). . . .  All that remains for [the poet of today] is to employ defensive tactics, to try to organise his [her] own subjective space with having any certainty (p.56). . . ."

If you, Paul Lake, manage to scientifically prove your points regarding Meter Rhyme et al, will that mean that poetry is now reaching maturity?   The problem is,  as Milosz points out repeatedly in this chapter ('The Lesson of Biology'), poets seem to particularly peculiarly resist maturity and cling stubbornly to "their somewhat childish nature. (p50)"    ???There's that word again: nature.  

I can't remember the exact quotes and I don't have the book here, but you probably recall the attitude of Dostoyevsky's Underground Man re the scientific marvels displayed at the Crystal Palace London Exhibition of 1950. . . .

Your essays are wonderful exhibits, Paul Lake.  They prove your hypotheses irrefutably.  An entire wing of the Museum of Verse should be devoted to displaying your scientific breakthroughs.  And let those ugly perverse brats, those punky little poeteers just try to break out their spitballs!


???Bill Knott




-----Original Message-----
From:	new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu]
Sent:	Wed 9/17/2003 8:21 PM
To:	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Cc:	
Subject:	New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1685 - 11 msgs

Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1683 - 4 msgs (Paul Lake)
   2. Re: Harper's (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
   3. Re: Harper's (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
   4. response to bill (Gabriel Gudding)
   5. Re: RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1683 - 4 msgs (Marcus Bales)
   6. can we have our ball back? TUCSON issue now online! (Tim Peterson)
   7. Re: The Enchanted Loom (Anny Ballardini)
   8. Re: Harper's (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
   9. Re: The Enchanted Loom (Bob Grumman)
  10. Re: Williams (Bob Grumman)
  11. Re: The Enchanted Loom (Michael Snider)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:05:02 -0500
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1683 - 4 msgs
From: Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

Bill, a further thought on the topic you raised. Charles Olson also said he
was returning poetry to the "ear" and the "breath" by writing Projective
Verse--a way of saying he was bringing verse back to nature.

I find the whole nature artifice distinction a bit muddled. Anytime a human
being makes something--say a suspension bridge--the result must take nature
into account and conform to its laws. In building a bridge, the engineer has
to take into account the law of gravity and the tensile strength of his
materials so when a car drives across it it holds up.  The problem with some
of the artifices of the avant-garde is that they create blue prints by
ignoring such considerations and wind up with a verbal artifice that fails
to communicate thought and feeling.

Paul Lake



on 9/17/03 11:33 AM, William Knott at William_Knott at emerson.edu wrote:

> Paul Lake's enchanted loom is irrefutable, at least by me. . .
> but my response is similar to the i had re his earlier essay where he
> "scientifically proved" that meter was more NATURAL than free-verse:
> my question: isn't the avantgarde from Baudelaire to the present based on an
> Anti-natural perspective?  Don't they regard art as essentially Artificial, as
> opposed to Natural?  One could quote several such assertions to that effect by
> Baudelaire. . .  From that viewpoint, the more un-natural one's poem is, the
> more defamiliarized in Shklovsky's term, the better . . . ???
> 
> ??Bill Knott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:    new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu]
> Sent:    Wed 9/17/2003 12:01 PM
> To:    new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Cc:    
> Subject:    New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1683 - 4 msgs
> 
> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>  1. Williams (Graham, David)
>  2. Re: Williams (David Weinstock)
>  3. Re: The Enchanted Loom (Paul Lake)
>  4. Re: Harper's (Paul Lake)
> 
> -- __--__-- 
> 
> Message: 1
> From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
> To: "'New-Poetry'" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:53:36 -0500
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Williams
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> Happy birthday to the ghost of William Carlos Williams--
> 
> Fine Work with Pitch and Copper
> 
> Now they are resting
> in the fleckless light
> separately in unison
> 
> like the sacks
> of sifted stone stacked
> regularly by twos
> 
> about the flat roof
> ready after lunch
> to be opened and strewn
> 
> The copper in eight
> foot strips has been
> beaten lengthwise
> 
> down the center at right
> angles and lies ready
> to edge the coping
> 
> One still chewing
> picks up a copper strip
> and runs his eye along it.
> --William Carlos Williams
> 
> 
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
> 
> 
> -- __--__-- 
> 
> Message: 2
> From: David Weinstock <dweinstock at adelphia.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Williams
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:17:22 -0400
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> FINE WORK IN PITCH & COPPER is one of my favorite poems in the world. It is so
> spare and restrained but I can never  forget it. Just last week I saw someone
> returning to from lunch break to work "still chewing" and flashed back to the
> poem.
> 
> WCW would have been 120 years old today.
> 
> You've all heard that he would scribble poems on prescription blanks in
> between patient visits. The Middlebury College library special collections
> department owns some of those prescription blanks, with part of what seems to
> be a short story Williams was working on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DAVID WEINSTOCK
> 240 Woodland Park
> Middlebury, VT 05753-1356 USA
> 802-388-7523 
> 
> 
> -- __--__-- 
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:48:43 -0500
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
> From: Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> Thanks for the good words and favorite quotes, Anny. I've got another essay
> under consideration at New England Review that deals with the relationship
> of women to poetic and language and form.
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> on 9/16/03 4:57 PM, Anny Ballardini at anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote:
> 
>> From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
>> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> 
>> _For the first time I agree with Marcus Bales. An excellent text, which
>> should be re-read. I pasted below several paragraphs I wanted to highlight.
>> I sometimes added a brief comment. Again my compliments, hopefully we will
>> find more writings with a similar complete thoughtful and stable evaluation
>> of our culture.
>> 
>> At the next level, we find the "software" of the grammatical and syntactic
>> rules of English. At a still higher level, we find the generic rules of
>> novelistic fiction. When we read a story or novel, we engage several levels
>> at once. At the lower levels, we run our eyes across a printed page,
>> decoding words and their grammatical relationships. At higher levels, we
>> follow imaginary characters living out their lives in a "virtual" world of
>> the imagination. Emergent levels include this dramatic unfolding of fictive
>> lives, the novel's "theme," and the alteration in consciousness we
>> experience when observing-or reflecting on-the tragic or comic nature of the
>> imagined experience.
>> 
>> Similarly, the cost for unpacking information in a literary text is a life
>> spent in a human culture, learning the rules of language and social
>> behavior. That's why, contra deconstruction, there is always something
>> outside the text.
>> 
>> _I particularly like this "her" (maybe you were thinking of one of the nine
>> muses...):
>> 
>>           In contrast to such strict left-mindedness, a poet has to use
>> her entire brain to write. Taking account of the semantic meaning of words,
>> their various connotations, their sounds and echoes, and the rhythms they
>> make, the poet has to engage in a special sort of level-mixing, which
>> Douglas Hofstadter calls a "tangled hierarchy." He defines a tangled
>> hierarchy as a situation where different hierarchical levels, such as a
>> computer's hardware and software, fold into each other in
>> hierarchy-violating ways.
>> 
>> _It works the other way round with me, and when I play with words first,
>> then I feel as if I was cheating, which I sometimes do, but in that case my
>> work seems to me less solid, maybe my right mathematical brain is stronger
>> than my left; or I also let an unconscious word-flow be transcribed on
>> paper, that was another game I played, and a mathematical or philosophical
>> revision was required in order to bring sense to the words. On the other
>> side the following concept is not fully developed. Many poets have a strong
>> musical talent which is expressed through language, as a reader I love poems
>> which are written by keeping sounds in mind, I also like nonsense, sounds
>> and paradoxes:
>> 
>> A similar tangle occurs when a poet writes. Poets frequently select words
>> more for their sound, a low level phenomenon, than for their meaning. Once
>> having selected a word, the poet then becomes aware of interesting semantic
>> relationships with others in the poem. After selecting the word for its
>> rhyme, the poet then has to construct meaningful sentences, images, and
>> metaphors around it. Through such entangling, the physical sound, or even
>> typed appearance, of words (which we defined as "hardware") can influence
>> the poem's "software" of grammar, syntax, metaphor, and argument
>> 
>> _This is very interesting, a positive outlook on what used to doom from the
>> above-class of the French Thinkers,
>> 
>> This explanation seems to support the paranoid notions of theorists like
>> Foucault who believe that language-users are puppets controlled by vast
>> "totalizing" systems handed down from the past.  The truth is subtler and
>> more interesting.  Though we do have to submit to constraints in order to
>> communicate, within these limits we have countless opportunities for
>> creativity and freedom
>> 
>> _As per The Waste Land by Eliot, there is an interesting interpretation done
>> by Ben Mazer in Fulcrum which makes him very comprehensible, in the end.
>> 
>> _Again, waiting for Paul Lake's next essay to appear,
>> anny
>> 
>>> Below is a link to my recent essay "The Enchanted Loom" in the online
>>> journal *Contemporary Poetry Review*. Last year the essay appeared in
>> print
>>> in *The Southwest Review*. In it, I discuss poetry, postmodern critical
>>> theory, avant-garde poetry, narrative, and poetic meter and form, among
>>> other things. Hope some of you find it of interest.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://www.cprw.com/Lake/loom.htm
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Paul Lake
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>> 
>> 
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
> -- __--__-- 
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:52:02 -0500
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harper's
> From: Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
>> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
> this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
> 
> --B_3146640723_233644
> Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> on 9/16/03 9:36 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> 
>> It's not on line, but Daniel Anderson's take on the new Norton Anthology =
> of
>> Contemporary poetry is worth reading.  It's in the current Harper's, whic=
> h may
>> be uncurrent by now.
>> =20
> 
> I=B9ll definitely take a look. The new two volume Norton was so thick, so
> expensive, so politically correct, and so full of poems of dubious quality
> it prompted me to change books for my poetry classes. Now I use the Penguin
> Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. Gwynn.
> 
> --B_3146640723_233644
> Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> <HTML>
> <HEAD>
> <TITLE>Re: [New-Poetry] Harper's</TITLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY>
> <FONT FACE=3D"Verdana">on 9/16/03 9:36 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=
> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> </FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman">It's not on line, but Danie=
> l Anderson's take on the new Norton Anthology of Contemporary poetry is wort=
> h reading. &nbsp;It's in the current Harper's, which may be uncurrent by now=
> .</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
> <BR>
> I1ll definitely take a look. The new two volume Norton was so thick, =
> so expensive, so politically correct, and so full of poems of dubious qualit=
> y it prompted me to change books for my poetry classes. Now I use the Pengui=
> n Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. Gwynn.</FONT>
> </BODY>
> </HTML>
> 
> 
> --B_3146640723_233644--
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
> 
> -- __--__-- 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> End of New-Poetry Digest
> 
> 
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]



--__--__--

Message: 2
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:18:55 EDT
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harper's
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu


--part1_159.24b6842f.2c99ff8f_boundary
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In a message dated 9/17/2003 11:01:29 AM Central Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: 
> Now I use the Penguin Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. 
> Gwynn.
And the Penguin Contemporary American Poetry is in the works.

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 9/17/2003 11:01:29 AM Central Dayli=
ght Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE st=
yle=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;=20=
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Now I use the Penguin Pocket Anthology edited by some guy=
 named R. S. Gwynn.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">And the Penguin Contemporary=
 American Poetry is in the works.</FONT></HTML>

--part1_159.24b6842f.2c99ff8f_boundary--

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:18:22 EDT
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harper's
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu


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In a message dated 9/17/2003 11:01:29 AM Central Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: 
> Now I use the Penguin Pocket Anthology edited by some guy named R. S. 
> Gwynn.
That'll work.

--part1_18c.1fcadd88.2c99ff6e_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 9/17/2003 11:01:29 AM Central Dayli=
ght Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: <BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Verdana" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE st=
yle=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px;=20=
PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Now I use the Penguin Pocket Anthology edited by some guy=
 named R. S. Gwynn.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2=
 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">That'll work.</FONT></HTML>

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--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:42:35 -0500
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu, new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
From: Gabriel Gudding <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] response to bill
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu


Bill, not to put too fine a point on it, but one response to your questions 
is this: there are many contemporary writers out there who'd be considered 
as, or self-identify as, avant-garde, and they can't be lumped easily into 
a "they" that can be generalized about. It's a commonly made point. And 
each of these groups would probably have a different answer as to whether 
they're natural, anti-natural, or just outright indifferent to the question.

As far as I understand a number of writers who self-identify as avant-garde 
or post-avant or whathaveyou, some would reject any aesthetic that claims 
access to the Natural, the "Authentic" poem, as a dubious, aesthetically 
presumptuous, ahistorical, Kantian, and politically suspect move. They (and 
remember I'm just talking about the writers whose ideas I know) would, as 
far as I understand it, also reject the idea of "more 
defamiliarized=better," doing so because they'd reject the idea of 
"better," preferring instead a relativistic community-based idea of 
use-value that acknowledges that such labels as "better poem" "worse poem" 
"good poem" "bad poem" are constantly shifting as time and community 
relations shift.

There are glaring exceptions even to the above para. I think of some Black 
Mtn writers, eg Creeley eg, who complicate the idea of the "real" poem, the 
authentic (which I construe as the natural) while embracing it.

Gabe

At 12:33 PM 9/17/2003 -0400, William Knott wrote:

>but my response is similar to the i had re his earlier essay where he 
>"scientifically proved" that meter was more NATURAL than free-verse:
>my question: isn't the avantgarde from Baudelaire to the present based on 
>an Anti-natural perspective?  Don't they regard art as essentially 
>Artificial, as opposed to Natural?  One could quote several such 
>assertions to that effect by Baudelaire. . .  From that viewpoint, the 
>more un-natural one's poem is, the more defamiliarized in Shklovsky's 
>term, the better . . . ???
>
>??Bill Knott



--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 16:14:25 -0400
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1683 - 4 msgs
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

On 17 Sep 2003 at 12:05, Paul Lake wrote:
> I find the whole nature artifice distinction a bit muddled. Anytime a
> human being makes something--say a suspension bridge--the result must
> take nature into account and conform to its laws. In building a
> bridge, the engineer has to take into account the law of gravity and
> the tensile strength of his materials so when a car drives across it
> it holds up.  The problem with some of the artifices of the
> avant-garde is that they create blue prints by ignoring such
> considerations and wind up with a verbal artifice that fails to
> communicate thought and feeling.

Well said.

Marcus




--__--__--

Message: 6
From: "Tim Peterson" <tscotpeterson at hotmail.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:31:32 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] can we have our ball back? TUCSON issue now online!
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

now online:

*

TUCSON issue of "can we have our ball back?"

Edited by Tim Peterson

*

featuring:

Charles Alexander

Dan Featherston

Sheila Murphy

Tenney Nathanson

Barbara Cully

Lisa Cooper

Matt Rotando

Frances Sjoberg

Jason Zuzga

(and many others!)

http://www.canwehaveourballback.com/azindex.htm

_________________________________________________________________
Get 10MB of e-mail storage! Sign up for Hotmail Extra Storage.  
http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es


--__--__--

Message: 7
From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:59:33 +0200
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu


Under consideration means that it will soon be online, is this right? If
yes, let us know when it appears,
best, anny

From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> Thanks for the good words and favorite quotes, Anny. I've got another
essay
> under consideration at New England Review that deals with the relationship
> of women to poetic and language and form.
>



--__--__--

Message: 8
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:16:40 EDT
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harper's
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu


--part1_77.1904937c.2c9a2938_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http://www.mhhe.com/catalogs/0072400196.mhtml

This is the flyer for the Gioia/Mason/Schoerke contemporary poetry anthology.

--part1_77.1904937c.2c9a2938_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">http://www.mhhe.com/catalogs/0072400196.mhtml<BR>
<BR>
This is the flyer for the Gioia/Mason/Schoerke contemporary poetry anthology=
.</FONT></HTML>

--part1_77.1904937c.2c9a2938_boundary--

--__--__--

Message: 9
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:19:34 -0400
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu


> Brilliant!
> Marcus

Just one comment on the essay:  All artists have two problems.  Being
understood is only one of them.  The other is avoiding being understood too
easily.  The aesthetic avant garde, by whatever name, worries more about the
latter than the conventional do, that's all.

--Bob G.




> On 16 Sep 2003 at 12:28, Paul Lake wrote:
>
> > Below is a link to my recent essay "The Enchanted Loom" in the online
> > journal *Contemporary Poetry Review*. Last year the essay appeared in
> > print in *The Southwest Review*. In it, I discuss poetry, postmodern
> > critical theory, avant-garde poetry, narrative, and poetic meter and
> > form, among other things. Hope some of you find it of interest.



--__--__--

Message: 10
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Williams
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:25:07 -0400
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

Weird: for about a day, the post that finally made it to New-Poetry a few
minutes ago got sent back every time I sent it out.

Now an observation about the Williams poem, which I also like.  I find it an
interestingly incorrect haiku; that is, it seems a haiku with far too many
words that nonetheless needs them all for full effect.




--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:39:42 -0400
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
From: Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu


On Wednesday, Sep 17, 2003, at 20:19 US/Eastern, Bob Grumman wrote:

> Just one comment on the essay:  All artists have two problems.  Being
> understood is only one of them.  The other is avoiding being 
> understood too
> easily.  The aesthetic avant garde, by whatever name, worries more 
> about the
> latter than the conventional do, that's all.

There are at least two reasons why one native speaker of a language may 
find another easy to understand: the content (emotional or 
intellectual) may be intrinsically simple or well-known, or the 
language may be used so skillfully as to make even difficult matter 
clear. Only the first is potentially a problem for the artist. The 
second is a triumph.

Michael



--__--__--

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


End of New-Poetry Digest



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From DICK  Thu Sep 18 09:55:06 2003
From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 03 09:55:06 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1686 - 7 msgs
Message-ID: <200309181354.h8IDsuTX088610@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:23:06 -0400 *************
William Knott - please take care not to include the entire digest
in your response.

Thx.



From paul.lake  Thu Sep 18 11:37:15 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:37:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] As You Like It
In-Reply-To: <BB8E89B7.44AE%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BB8F3B5B.546E%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/17/03 9:59 PM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote:

> I've examined my soul and find I don't much care whether metrical verse is
> more "natural" than other verse, even if terms could be adequately defined;
> but it seems simply a truism that all art is, well, artificial:  shaped,
> heightened, stylized, etc., using the time-honored materials.
> 
> That fact doesn't seem to lead necessarily to conclusions about whether it's
> a good idea to employ conventional syntax or not, say; that would be a
> rhetorical matter, relative to what one hopes to communicate, to which
> audience, with what purpose, etc.  Which I take it is one point Paul Lake is
> raising:  what are avant-gardists hoping to communicate, to whom, and why?
> Very valid questions.
> 
> I also think that Gabe makes a highly pertinent point.  When experimental,
> language-centered, avant-ish or post-whatever poets object to being lumped
> together with distinctions blurred, that's more than understandable.  So,
> for example, if Ron Silliman assures me that Jorie Graham is not a language
> poet, fine, I'll take his word.  I haven't learned much about Jorie Graham
> thereby, but the point seems worth conceding.
> 
> Yet there are a couple problems usually lurking, seems to me.  One is that,
> from where I sit, it seems that many poets on the other side of this
> contested equator have no qualms about lumping together mainstream poets,
> blurring distinctions, etc.  The effect is to turn poets as different from
> each other as, say, Philip Levine and Billy Collins, into some monolithic
> Other-- whether the label be quietude, pre-modernism, naivete, or some other
> coinage.  That's at least as reductive as labeling any poem without a firm
> narrative basis or conventional syntax as a language poem, isn't it?
> 
> The related problem is that by defining yourself as post-X, you are already
> close to committing the same sin you would decry in others, lumping
> *yourself* together with others in reaction to X.  If terms like
> "experimental" and "avant-garde" mean anything, they mean it in relation to
> some reasonably settled and presumably still-kicking Tradition.  (For
> without the oppositional stance, which demands something real to oppose,
> wouldn't much of the lifeblood leak out?)
> 
> I don't know exactly where all this leads me-- I'm happy enough to be
> labeled a mainstreamer, myself, if that could be done without an implied
> sneer or reduction.  Still, when I meet critical stances that want to bully
> me out of my fondness for things like narrative, I wish I could always
> manage the proper response, which would be a sweet small smile.  We'll see
> whether readers of the future tire of narrative values; in the meantime, you
> pays your money and you takes your choice.
> 
> 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
> 
> 
>> From: Gabriel Gudding <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
>> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:42:35 -0500
>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu, new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] response to bill
>> 
>> 
>> Bill, not to put too fine a point on it, but one response to your
>> questions 
>> is this: there are many contemporary writers out there who'd be
>> considered 
>> as, or self-identify as, avant-garde, and they can't be lumped easily
>> into 
>> a "they" that can be generalized about. It's a commonly made point. And
>> each of these groups would probably have a different answer as to
>> whether 
>> they're natural, anti-natural, or just outright indifferent to the
>> question.
>> 
>> As far as I understand a number of writers who self-identify as
>> avant-garde 
>> or post-avant or whathaveyou, some would reject any aesthetic that
>> claims 
>> access to the Natural, the "Authentic" poem, as a dubious, aesthetically
>> 
>> presumptuous, ahistorical, Kantian, and politically suspect move. . . . . . .
> .
>> 
>> Gabe
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
Well said, David.

---
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From barry.spacks  Thu Sep 18 12:56:11 2003
From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:56:11 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:"Mainstream," that vile canard
In-Reply-To: <200309181600.h8IG06ST022022@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030918092541.00b4bd88@incoming.verizon.net>


>on 9/17/03 9:59 PM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote:
>
>I'm happy enough to be labeled a mainstreamer, myself...

I'm not, David. "Mainstream" amounts to schoolyard name-calling,
a spin-doktor po-biz dowdy-term doing quite a job at arrogating all
true juice of invention exclusively to oppositional doodling.

A return-insult might pin and wriggle to the wall the more flagrantly
shameless current lime-light-lechers as members of (say)
"the Self-Stroking Word-Salad Schools."

huffily,

Barry

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From mmagee  Thu Sep 18 14:34:59 2003
From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:34:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:"Mainstream," that vile canard
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030918092541.00b4bd88@incoming.verizon.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030918092541.00b4bd88@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1063910099.3f69fad37dc9f@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

Dear Barry,

As you may have heard The Mainstream Poets are happily inviting all poets
disatisfied with their "Mainstream" identification (running the gamut from
new-formalist-but-not-too-strident-from-respectable-press to MFA or post
MFA-generated autobiographical lyricists working in a free -- though basically
iambic -- verse structure) to turn in their badges, ID's, diplomas, AWP
membership card etc, for recycling.

http://www.mainstreampoetry.com

-m.

Quoting Barry Spacks <barry.spacks at verizon.net>:

> 
> >on 9/17/03 9:59 PM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote:
> >
> >I'm happy enough to be labeled a mainstreamer, myself...
> 
> I'm not, David. "Mainstream" amounts to schoolyard name-calling,
> a spin-doktor po-biz dowdy-term doing quite a job at arrogating all
> true juice of invention exclusively to oppositional doodling.
> 
> A return-insult might pin and wriggle to the wall the more flagrantly
> shameless current lime-light-lechers as members of (say)
> "the Self-Stroking Word-Salad Schools."
> 
> huffily,
> 
> Barry
> 
> 





From bobgrumman  Thu Sep 18 15:20:34 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:20:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <3F696D2C.22648.36C465@localhost>
Message-ID: <00f001c37e19$efa73220$bb13fea9@j1c1k6>


> On 17 Sep 2003 at 20:19, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > Just one comment on [Paul Lake's] essay:  All artists have two problems.
Being
> > understood is only one of them.  The other is avoiding being
> > understood too easily.  The aesthetic avant garde, by whatever name,
> > worries more about the latter than the conventional do, that's all.
>
> On Understanding and the Avant Garde
>
> The people who make up
> the aesthetic avant garde,
> by whatever name,
> imagine that writing to be
> understood is an easy thing;

If that's so, Marcus, why did I mention being understood one of the two
problems of being an artist?

> the people who make up
> the aesthetic avant garde,
> by whatever name,
> do not try to write
> anything easy to understand;

I believe that all serious artists are against creating works that are easy
to understand; who wants to create an artwork that another person can glance
at and fully accept, even with enjoyment, in ten seconds?  My point is that
some artists are more concerned with it than others.



> the people who make up
> the aesthetic avant garde,
> by whatever name,
> don't find writing to be understood
> so easy that they have come to fear
> being understood too easily, rather
> the people who make up
> the aesthetic avant garde,
> by whatever name,
> couldn't write to be understood
> if they wanted to;

Now you have it: those artists who don't use received techniques in their
work are incompetent.

> and those people who make up
> the aesthetic avant garde,
> by whatever name,
> work very hard
> to make a virtue
> of that vice.

Surprise, Marcus, I agree that this is true, as a general rule (except that
I would substitute "characteristic" for "vice").  However, I suggest that
more than a few mainstreamers, by whatever name, tend to try to main virtues
of the characteristics of their work, too, such as accessibility.  Human
nature.

Note that I didn't claim art that tries to avoid being too easily understood
was necessarily better than art that tries to avoid not being understood.  I
didn't suggest that those who laud clarity are unable to create art of
sufficient complexity to risk not being easily understood.  I do believe
that some mainstreamers ARE unable to do that, but I also believe that some
members of the avant garde are unable to be consistently coherent.

--Bob G.




From paul.lake  Thu Sep 18 15:15:28 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:15:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Isabelle
Message-ID: <BB8F6E80.5476%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Has Isabelle knocked out our new-poetry server? A couple of things I posted
earlier today haven't shown up yet. This is a kind of test posting.

Paul Lake

---
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From paul.lake  Thu Sep 18 16:17:51 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:17:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Answer to Bill Knott
Message-ID: <BB8F7D1E.5479%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Bill, you raise a lot of good points, so let me briefly address a few.

on 9/18/03 8:41 AM, William Knott at William_Knott at emerson.edu wrote:

> "Nothing is more evident than that Nature hates Mind."

I would argue with Wilde here and say that not only does Nature not hate
mind, but that mind grew out of, was an inherently potential development of,
Nature, and I don't just mean in human beings. Animals display evidence of
mind--and from where else did our own human minds evolve? Mind vs. Nature
seems to me a false dichotomy despite the witty paradoxes of Wilde.

>???my point is: the mission, the purpose, the raisondetre of the Avantgarde is
to deviate from the Norm, however the latter is defined. . . . That's why
Paz (in "Children of the Mire") calls Modernism the tradition-against-itself
(I'm paraphrasing). . . .
>you're not taking into account the attractiveness of perversity, the sinful
allure of the Avantgarde (obviously i'm using these terms ironically, not
pejoratively). . . .
>If you, Paul Lake, could scientifically prove beyond any doubt that Meter and
Rhyme and Realism are inherently Natural and Normal and Right, all your
efforts would simply provide the Avantgarde with even more justifications
for choosing the Un-Natural, the Un-Normal, the Perverse. . . .
>Given the USA tradition of rebellious individualism, and that Emersonism is the
American Religion (Harold Bloom). . . .

So you would applaud the pollution of the "natural" air we breath as a bold,
transgressive act by an industrial artist revolting against the tyranny of
"normal" ecology? Factories are, after all, a product of modern progressive
thinking, developing at about the same time and rate as the modern literary
era. The drowning of her children by a mother, the rape and mutilation of a
child would also be marvelously perverse and transgressive acts. Rebellious
individualism produces Hitlers and Hannibal Lectors as well as Emersons and
naughty little poets and painters.


In regard to some of your other points, I would say that I'm not taking
science as my "guide" or trying to show that one should never experiment
with poetic rhythm or form. If it seems so at times, it's probably because
meter and form have been attacked so much in recent decades by apologists of
the avant-garde that I felt I should mount a reasoned defense. I'm all in
favor of childlike play and don't even mind a certain amount of adolescent
rebellion; writing in meter over the last few decades might, in fact, be
seen as a rebellious act. But I don't want to elevate spit-ball shooting to
a literary aesthetic. Adolescent rebellion is fine when you're an
adolescent, but I don't want to see our entire literary culture locked into
an eternal Rebel Without a Cause mindset.

If you want to defy the natural and the normal by burning down forests,
polluting rivers, and mutilating human bodies, you might find some of your
fellow citizens occasionally objecting. Likewise, if you think language is
only art when it's deranged and chapped up, don't be too surprised when
others disagree. Everyone wants a "normal" blood pressure and heart rate,
not to mention bowel function and eyesight. (Oedipus might be seen as a
rebel against the latter.  But like the precocious, half-formed adolescent
that he was, he never quite resolved his Oedipus complex.)

I don't want a wing in a museum dedicated to my essays.  I'd prefer some
kind of diorama, with a wax figure of me stalking among the literary flora
and fauna of the era. . . . Maybe somewhere in the Smithsonian near the
dinosaur bones. 

Paul Lake    

---
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From wjbat  Thu Sep 18 16:46:59 2003
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:46:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <00f001c37e19$efa73220$bb13fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3F9183DF-EA19-11D7-AC17-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 03:20 PM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> I believe that all serious artists are against creating works that are 
> easy
> to understand; who wants to create an artwork that another person can 
> glance
> at and fully accept, even with enjoyment, in ten seconds?  My point is 
> that
> some artists are more concerned with it than others.

It might be useful to consider that there are good reasons for 
delaying, or even subverting, "understanding," and that iambic 
pentameters introduce plenty of resistance to sense.  The stuff that 
even dogs & cats can read isn't Yeats any more than it's Cage.  I've 
never understood how the new-formalist folks have justified their 
populist rhetoric;

Dylan Thomas is still powerful among the working-class folks I know, 
and that's clearly not because he's easy to understand.  W.C. Williams, 
ditto.  They both live on their music.

Wendy


Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

Just as a coil of rope
Is mistaken for a snake,
So you are mistaken for the world.
                                        -Ashtavakra Gita




From paul.lake  Thu Sep 18 16:19:13 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:19:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mind and Nature
Message-ID: <BB8F7D70.547A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Here's an article from today's Salon that touches on the notion that mind
grows out of nature and maybe even precedes human consciousness. Though far
from clear or definitive, the little study is suggestive. Perhaps even
supposedly "culturally constructed" ideas like "fairness" and "justice" are
rooted in nature. Perhaps Wilde and the wild are not so far apart.

Paul Lake




Study shows monkeys may resent unfairness


- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Alex Dominguez



Sept. 17, 2003 ?|? Humans aren't the only ones who hate a bum deal, it turns
out. 

In a recent study, brown capuchin monkeys trained to exchange a granite
token for a cucumber treat often refused the swap if they saw another monkey
get a better payoff -- a grape.

Instead, they often threw the token, refused to eat the piece of cucumber,
or even gave it to the other capuchin after viewing the lopsided deal, said
Emory University researcher Sarah Brosnan.

She said the results indicate man and monkey may have inherited a sense of
fairness from an evolutionary ancestor.

"This implies we evolved this way," said Brosnan, whose work with colleague
Frans B.M. de Waal is reported in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature.

The trait may have helped species cooperate and survive, Brosnan said.

However, Charles Janson, who studies capuchins at the State University of
New York at Stony Brook and was not involved in the research, suggested the
monkeys' behavior may have been learned in captivity, rather than inherited
as an evolutionary adaptation.

Brosnan said she doubted the behavior was learned, saying most animals
"cannot learn things which they do not naturally do in the wild."

"More importantly, however, learning behavior requires that individuals get
rewarded for performing a specific behavior," Brosnan said. "In our test,
the subject actually received less reward for refusing to exchange."

The researchers, at Emory's Yerkes National Primate Research Center, studied
five female monkeys, testing them two at a time.

When both monkeys were given a cucumber slice after handing over the token,
they completed the trade 95 percent of the time.

But when one was given the tastier grape for the same amount of work, the
rate of cooperation from the other monkey fell to 60 percent, with the
cheated primate sometimes throwing the token, refusing the cucumber or
giving the cucumber to the other monkey. And when one didn't have to do
anything to get a grape, the other made the trade for the cucumber only 20
percent of the time.

The refusal to make the exchange increased as the experiment went on, the
researchers reported.

"They were not happy with me," Brosnan said, although she later added that
she couldn't really know what the monkeys' emotions were.

The scientists concluded that capuchins apparently measure rewards in
relative terms, comparing their rewards to those available, as well as their
efforts to those of others.

Small and highly animated with faces that resemble wizened old men, the
tropical forest-dwelling capuchins were chosen for the experiment because
they often share food.

Brosnan, who said she is now conducting similar studies with chimpanzees,
noted that the capuchin that got the grape didn't react at all to the
unjustness of the situation. That "probably implies there is still a lot of
difference between their sense of fairness and ours," she said.

---
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From jvcervantes  Thu Sep 18 17:33:36 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:33:36 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mind and Nature
References: <BB8F7D70.547A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F6A24AF.93C3F793@earthlink.net>

So, the Enron CEOs and their ilk are exempt from evolutionary forces?

- Jim

Paul Lake wrote:
> 
> Here's an article from today's Salon that touches on the notion that mind
> grows out of nature and maybe even precedes human consciousness. Though far
> from clear or definitive, the little study is suggestive. Perhaps even
> supposedly "culturally constructed" ideas like "fairness" and "justice" are
> rooted in nature. Perhaps Wilde and the wild are not so far apart.
> 
> Paul Lake
> 
> Study shows monkeys may resent unfairness
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - -
> By Alex Dominguez
> 
> Sept. 17, 2003 ?|? Humans aren't the only ones who hate a bum deal, it turns
> out.
> 
> In a recent study, brown capuchin monkeys trained to exchange a granite
> token for a cucumber treat often refused the swap if they saw another monkey
> get a better payoff -- a grape.
> 
> Instead, they often threw the token, refused to eat the piece of cucumber,
> or even gave it to the other capuchin after viewing the lopsided deal, said
> Emory University researcher Sarah Brosnan.
> 
> She said the results indicate man and monkey may have inherited a sense of
> fairness from an evolutionary ancestor.
> 
> "This implies we evolved this way," said Brosnan, whose work with colleague
> Frans B.M. de Waal is reported in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature.
> 
> The trait may have helped species cooperate and survive, Brosnan said.
> 
> However, Charles Janson, who studies capuchins at the State University of
> New York at Stony Brook and was not involved in the research, suggested the
> monkeys' behavior may have been learned in captivity, rather than inherited
> as an evolutionary adaptation.
> 
> Brosnan said she doubted the behavior was learned, saying most animals
> "cannot learn things which they do not naturally do in the wild."
> 
> "More importantly, however, learning behavior requires that individuals get
> rewarded for performing a specific behavior," Brosnan said. "In our test,
> the subject actually received less reward for refusing to exchange."
> 
> The researchers, at Emory's Yerkes National Primate Research Center, studied
> five female monkeys, testing them two at a time.
> 
> When both monkeys were given a cucumber slice after handing over the token,
> they completed the trade 95 percent of the time.
> 
> But when one was given the tastier grape for the same amount of work, the
> rate of cooperation from the other monkey fell to 60 percent, with the
> cheated primate sometimes throwing the token, refusing the cucumber or
> giving the cucumber to the other monkey. And when one didn't have to do
> anything to get a grape, the other made the trade for the cucumber only 20
> percent of the time.
> 
> The refusal to make the exchange increased as the experiment went on, the
> researchers reported.
> 
> "They were not happy with me," Brosnan said, although she later added that
> she couldn't really know what the monkeys' emotions were.
> 
> The scientists concluded that capuchins apparently measure rewards in
> relative terms, comparing their rewards to those available, as well as their
> efforts to those of others.
> 
> Small and highly animated with faces that resemble wizened old men, the
> tropical forest-dwelling capuchins were chosen for the experiment because
> they often share food.
> 
> Brosnan, who said she is now conducting similar studies with chimpanzees,
> noted that the capuchin that got the grape didn't react at all to the
> unjustness of the situation. That "probably implies there is still a lot of
> difference between their sense of fairness and ours," she said.
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From paul.lake  Thu Sep 18 13:50:16 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:50:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1685 - 11 msgs
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF7C@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <BB8F5A88.5471%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Bill, you raise a lot of good points, so let me briefly address a few.

on 9/18/03 8:41 AM, William Knott at William_Knott at emerson.edu wrote:

> "Nothing is more evident than that Nature hates Mind."

I would argue with Wilde here and say that not only does Nature not hate
mind, but that mind grew out of, was an inherently potential development of,
Nature, and I don't just mean in human beings. Animals display evidence of
mind--and from where else did our own human minds evolve? Mind vs. Nature
seems to me a false dichotomy despite the witty paradoxes of Wilde.

>???my point is: the mission, the purpose, the raisondetre of the Avantgarde is
to deviate from the Norm, however the latter is defined. . . . That's why
Paz (in "Children of the Mire") calls Modernism the tradition-against-itself
(I'm paraphrasing). . . .
>you're not taking into account the attractiveness of perversity, the sinful
allure of the Avantgarde (obviously i'm using these terms ironically, not
pejoratively). . . .
>If you, Paul Lake, could scientifically prove beyond any doubt that Meter and
Rhyme and Realism are inherently Natural and Normal and Right, all your
efforts would simply provide the Avantgarde with even more justifications
for choosing the Un-Natural, the Un-Normal, the Perverse. . . .
>Given the USA tradition of rebellious individualism, and that Emersonism is the
American Religion (Harold Bloom). . . .

So you would applaud the pollution of the "natural" air we breath as a bold,
transgressive act by an industrial artist revolting against the tyranny of
"normal" ecology? Factories are, after all, a product of modern progressive
thinking, developing at about the same time and rate as the modern literary
era. The drowning of her children by a mother, the rape and mutilation of a
child would also be marvelously perverse and transgressive acts. Rebellious
individualism produces Hitlers and Hannibal Lectors as well as Emersons and
naughty little poets and painters.


In regard to some of your other points, I would say that I'm not taking
science as my "guide" or trying to show that one should never experiment
with poetic rhythm or form. If it seems so at times, it's probably because
meter and form have been attacked so much in recent decades by apologists of
the avant-garde that I felt I should mount a reasoned defense. I'm all in
favor of childlike play and don't even mind a certain amount of adolescent
rebellion; writing in meter over the last few decades might, in fact, be
seen as a rebellious act. But I don't want to elevate spit-ball shooting to
a literary aesthetic. Adolescent rebellion is fine when you're an
adolescent, but I don't want to see our entire literary culture locked into
an eternal Rebel Without a Cause mindset.

If you want to defy the natural and the normal by burning down forests,
polluting rivers, and mutilating human bodies, you might find some of your
fellow citizens occasionally objecting. Likewise, if you think language is
only art when it's deranged and chapped up, don't be too surprised when
others disagree. Everyone wants a "normal" blood pressure and heart rate,
not to mention bowel function and eyesight. (Oedipus might be seen as a
rebel against the latter.  But like the precocious, half-formed adolescent
that he was, he never quite resolved his Oedipus complex.)

I don't want a wing in a museum dedicated to my essays.  I'd prefer some
kind of diorama, with a wax figure of me stalking among the literary flora
and fauna of the era. . . . Maybe somewhere in the Smithsonian near the
dinosaur bones. 

Paul Lake    

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From Rsgwynn1  Thu Sep 18 18:35:07 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:35:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
Message-ID: <1cc.1109adfd.2c9b8d1b@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/18/2003 3:54:32 PM Central Daylight Time, 
wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: 
> 
> Dylan Thomas is still powerful among the working-class folks I know, 
> and that's clearly not because he's easy to understand.  W.C. Williams, 
> ditto.  They both live on their music.
> 
> Wendy
> 
> My working-class students probably prefer George Herbert to any other poet 
> simply because they can respond to his (usually) simple Christianity and 
> (usually) simple music.  Most new-formalist claims to populist appeal are based 
> primarily on so-called popular poetry that exists outside of the academy--rap, 
> cowboy, children's, ballads, song lyrics, patriotic verse, etc.  Of course, 
> just because a populist audience responds to such things as discernible rhythm 
> and rhyme doesn't automatically mean that they'd respond to a poem by 
> Timothy Steele.  But they just might respond to some of the music in his work.  
> New-formalist claims to populist appeal are at least as valid as the kind of 
> claims that the left made during the thirties--if either have much validity.  
> Poets with broad-based populist appeal (I think of Gwendolyn Brooks as one of 
> the latest and most important) knew that a general audience wasn't going to 
> get much out of some of her high-modernist poems (and there are quite a few), 
> so she was wise enough to know that some of her poems were going to appeal to 
> one audience and others to another one.  I think that any poet who has 
> written children's poetry (to cite one example) knows this and does feel that she 
> is being disingenuous just because she is writing for a limited audience who 
> has never taken a poetry course.  I do wonder, though, about Williams's appeal 
> to the working class.  Maybe a skillful and charismatic teacher can get him 
> across, but I do recall the mystification of the men and women on the street 
> when asked to read "So Much Depends" on the Voices & Visions video on 
> Williams.

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From paul.lake  Thu Sep 18 14:02:12 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 13:02:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mind and Nature
Message-ID: <BB8F5D54.5472%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Here's an article from today's Salon that touches on the notion that mind
grows out of nature and maybe even precedes human consciousness. Though far
from clear or definitive, the little study is suggestive. Perhaps even
supposedly "culturally constructed" ideas like "fairness" and "justice" are
rooted in nature. Perhaps Wilde and the wild are not so far apart.

Paul Lake




Study shows monkeys may resent unfairness


- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Alex Dominguez



Sept. 17, 2003 ?|? Humans aren't the only ones who hate a bum deal, it turns
out. 

In a recent study, brown capuchin monkeys trained to exchange a granite
token for a cucumber treat often refused the swap if they saw another monkey
get a better payoff -- a grape.

Instead, they often threw the token, refused to eat the piece of cucumber,
or even gave it to the other capuchin after viewing the lopsided deal, said
Emory University researcher Sarah Brosnan.

She said the results indicate man and monkey may have inherited a sense of
fairness from an evolutionary ancestor.

"This implies we evolved this way," said Brosnan, whose work with colleague
Frans B.M. de Waal is reported in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature.

The trait may have helped species cooperate and survive, Brosnan said.

However, Charles Janson, who studies capuchins at the State University of
New York at Stony Brook and was not involved in the research, suggested the
monkeys' behavior may have been learned in captivity, rather than inherited
as an evolutionary adaptation.

Brosnan said she doubted the behavior was learned, saying most animals
"cannot learn things which they do not naturally do in the wild."

"More importantly, however, learning behavior requires that individuals get
rewarded for performing a specific behavior," Brosnan said. "In our test,
the subject actually received less reward for refusing to exchange."

The researchers, at Emory's Yerkes National Primate Research Center, studied
five female monkeys, testing them two at a time.

When both monkeys were given a cucumber slice after handing over the token,
they completed the trade 95 percent of the time.

But when one was given the tastier grape for the same amount of work, the
rate of cooperation from the other monkey fell to 60 percent, with the
cheated primate sometimes throwing the token, refusing the cucumber or
giving the cucumber to the other monkey. And when one didn't have to do
anything to get a grape, the other made the trade for the cucumber only 20
percent of the time.

The refusal to make the exchange increased as the experiment went on, the
researchers reported.

"They were not happy with me," Brosnan said, although she later added that
she couldn't really know what the monkeys' emotions were.

The scientists concluded that capuchins apparently measure rewards in
relative terms, comparing their rewards to those available, as well as their
efforts to those of others.

Small and highly animated with faces that resemble wizened old men, the
tropical forest-dwelling capuchins were chosen for the experiment because
they often share food.

Brosnan, who said she is now conducting similar studies with chimpanzees,
noted that the capuchin that got the grape didn't react at all to the
unjustness of the situation. That "probably implies there is still a lot of
difference between their sense of fairness and ours," she said.

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From bobgrumman  Thu Sep 18 19:40:52 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:40:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <3F696D2C.22648.36C465@localhost> <00f001c37e19$efa73220$bb13fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <029f01c37e3e$4c9dfbc0$bb13fea9@j1c1k6>

> I believe that all serious artists are against creating works that are
easy
> to understand; who wants to create an artwork that another person can
glance
> at and fully accept, even with enjoyment, in ten seconds?  My point is
that
> some artists are more concerned with it than others.

To which I should have added that I believe all serious artists want to be
understood.  My comment, you should note, speaks not of not being understood
but of not being understood TOO EASILY.

--Bob G.




From wjbat  Thu Sep 18 19:56:16 2003
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:56:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <1cc.1109adfd.2c9b8d1b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <B0F8932B-EA33-11D7-AC17-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

Sam,
I wasn't talking about students; I was talking about the working-class 
people I grew up with, who never got anywhere near a college.  They 
might well have liked George Herbert if they'd ever encountered him.  
I'd hope so.  Perhaps it's a regional thing; people in my neighborhood 
weren't so monolithically Christian, regardless of class.

But I can't say I run into that many people with ears so tin that they 
can't hear the music of free verse, even without benefit of academics.  
The people who didn't know what to make of a red wheelbarrow would 
still be ravished by Asphodel, is my bet.

Wendy

On Thursday, September 18, 2003, at 06:35 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/18/2003 3:54:32 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> wjbat at conncoll.edu writes:
>
>
> Dylan Thomas is still powerful among the working-class folks I know,
> and that's clearly not because he's easy to understand.? W.C. Williams,
> ditto.? They both live on their music.
>
> Wendy
>
> My working-class students probably prefer George Herbert to any other 
> poet simply because they can respond to his (usually) simple 
> Christianity and (usually) simple music.? Most new-formalist claims to 
> populist appeal are based primarily on so-called popular poetry that 
> exists outside of the academy--rap, cowboy, children's, ballads, song 
> lyrics, patriotic verse, etc.? Of course, just because a populist 
> audience responds to such things as discernible rhythm and rhyme 
> doesn't automatically mean that they'd respond to a poem by Timothy 
> Steele.? But they just might respond to some of the music in his 
> work.? New-formalist claims to populist appeal are at least as valid 
> as the kind of claims that the left made during the thirties--if 
> either have much validity.? Poets with broad-based populist appeal (I 
> think of Gwendolyn Brooks as one of the latest and most important) 
> knew that a general audience wasn't going to get much out of some of 
> her high-modernist poems (and there are quite a few), so she was wise 
> enough to know that some of her poems were going to appeal to one 
> audience and others to another one.? I think that any poet who has 
> written children's poetry (to cite one example) knows this and does 
> feel that she is being disingenuous just because she is writing for a 
> limited audience who has never taken a poetry course.? I do wonder, 
> though, about Williams's appeal to the working class.? Maybe a 
> skillful and charismatic teacher can get him across, but I do recall 
> the mystification of the men and women on the street when asked to 
> read "So Much Depends" on the Voices & Visions video on
> Williams.
>
>
>
>

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
----------------------------
How could it be permissible to form a cult, gather
followers and cronies, dash off writings, and toil in
pursuit of objects for love of honor and advantage?
             -Tung-shan

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
--------------------------

Just as a coil of rope
Is mistaken for a snake,
So you are mistaken for the world.
                                        -Ashtavakra Gita
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From JforJames  Thu Sep 18 22:39:04 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:39:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
Message-ID: <156.24bf6de7.2c9bc648@aol.com>

>  I do wonder, 
>  > though, about Williams's appeal to the working class.? Maybe a 
>  > skillful and charismatic teacher can get him across, but I do recall 
>  > the mystification of the men and women on the street when asked to 
>  > read "So Much Depends" on the Voices & Visions video on
>  > Williams.

Art seems to roughly divide between that which was made
for the outside and that which was made from the inside (for 
the sake of art itself and those few privvy to its inworkings).
I don't know whether Williams ever adequately explaimed 
himself re the significance of that red wheelbarrow, but I 
always see a ghost "(sic)" trailing this poem.
Finnegan
 




From halvard  Thu Sep 18 22:49:58 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:49:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <156.24bf6de7.2c9bc648@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEJKHFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    I don't know whether Williams ever adequately explaimed 
{    himself re the significance of that red wheelbarrow, but I 
{    always see a ghost "(sic)" trailing this poem.
{    Finnegan

Then, you think he *should* have explained it?

Hal         "I think I think; therefore I think I am."
                                --Ambrose Bierce
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From Rsgwynn1  Thu Sep 18 23:54:14 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:54:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
Message-ID: <18b.1fa2c66b.2c9bd7e6@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/18/2003 9:51:07 PM Central Daylight Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes: 
> 
> {    I don't know whether Williams ever adequately explaimed 
> {    himself re the significance of that red wheelbarrow, but I 
> {    always see a ghost "(sic)" trailing this poem.
> {    Finnegan
> 
> Then, you think he *should* have explained it?
> 
> Hal         "I think I think; therefore I think I am."
>                                 --Ambrose Bierce

In the Voices & Visions video, it's simply a matter of listening to the 
average Joe or Jane on the street trying to *read* the poem.  It's interesting.
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From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 19 00:08:00 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:08:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
Message-ID: <93.331d16c8.2c9bdb20@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/18/2003 6:57:06 PM Central Daylight Time, 
wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: 
> 
> Sam,
> I wasn't talking about students; I was talking about the working-class 
> people I grew up with, who never got anywhere near a college.  They 
> might well have liked George Herbert if they'd ever encountered him.  
> I'd hope so.  Perhaps it's a regional thing; people in my neighborhood 
> weren't so monolithically Christian, regardless of class.
> 
> But I can't say I run into that many people with ears so tin that they 
> can't hear the music of free verse, even without benefit of academics.  
> The people who didn't know what to make of a red wheelbarrow would 
> still be ravished by Asphodel, is my bet.
> 
> Wendy

If presented well, maybe so.  But I would hold up the example of Whitman, who 
always thought that his poems would be beloved by laborers.  But who really 
loved them?  Emerson?  Wilde?  Hopkins?  Only "O Captain, My Captain" managed 
to reach his ideal audience--and that, as we know, ain't real Whitman.

When I worked in the Spray Cotton Mill for four years, I never heard much 
about poetry, but I did hear a lot of Merle Haggard and Johnny Cash--spoken of 
with respect.  To be sure, I never tried any Williams on my fellow overhaulers.
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From halvard  Fri Sep 19 07:02:13 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:02:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Lawrence Ferlinghetti, "Sandinista Avioncitos"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEKAHFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Sandinista Avioncitos

The little airplanes of the heart
with their brave little propellers
What can they do
against the winds of darkness
even as butterflies are beaten back
by hurricanes
yet do not die
They lie in wait wherever
they can hide and hang
their fine wings folded
and when the killer-wind dies
they flutter forth again
into the new-blown light
live as leaves

--Lawrence Ferlinghetti 

fr. *These Are My Rivers: New & Selected
Poems, 1955-1993* [New York: New Directions,
1993]

Hal         

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From marcus  Fri Sep 19 07:49:58 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:49:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <3F9183DF-EA19-11D7-AC17-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
References: <00f001c37e19$efa73220$bb13fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3F6AB526.7173.1C52B3@localhost>

> Dylan Thomas is still powerful among the working-class folks I know,
> and that's clearly not because he's easy to understand.  W.C.
> Williams, ditto.  They both live on their music.

Well, look at the things, especially from Thomas, that are 
remembered: it's stuff that is pretty easy to understand. Williams is 
remembered more in bafflement than wonder, to judge by the working 
class folks I know. We have poetry day once a week here at DG where I 
distribute a copy of and then read aloud a well-respected poem. I've 
used both Thomas and Williams and Thomas is overwhelmingly preferred -
- and those who prefer Williams prefer him on the simple non-poetic 
grounds that it's shorter -- but they like "Refusal to Mourn" and 
"Rage Against the Dying of the Light" way more than "Fern Hill", 
which produced the pre-emptively funny comment at the end: "Blah de 
blah de blah!"  

Even Thomas at his most musical is not liked by working class people 
when his sense doesn't follow his music pretty transparently; and 
Williams's sense seems so transparent, except for the damned 
chickens, that there's no music, and no poetry, perceived by most of 
these working class folks. Nearly everyone asks "Why is that poetry?" 
or "What makes that a poem?" and similar questions. 

Perhaps we should refine our notions of "working class" in order to 
better examine why our experiences seem so different.






From wjbat  Fri Sep 19 09:55:43 2003
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:55:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <3F6AB526.7173.1C52B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <F5EC3280-EAA8-11D7-9DE6-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Friday, September 19, 2003, at 07:49 AM, Marcus Bales wrote:
> Perhaps we should refine our notions of "working class" in order to
> better examine why our experiences seem so different.

Or perhaps we should accept that our observations are extremely 
selective and have more to do with who we are as observers than with 
any reliable generalization about a large and diverse group of people.  
It's safe to say that if you and Sam and I walked into any control 
group, we'd come out with three very different reports of who was there 
and what they had on their minds.

Wendy


>> Dylan Thomas is still powerful among the working-class folks I know,
>> and that's clearly not because he's easy to understand.  W.C.
>> Williams, ditto.  They both live on their music.
>
> Well, look at the things, especially from Thomas, that are
> remembered: it's stuff that is pretty easy to understand. Williams is
> remembered more in bafflement than wonder, to judge by the working
> class folks I know. We have poetry day once a week here at DG where I
> distribute a copy of and then read aloud a well-respected poem. I've
> used both Thomas and Williams and Thomas is overwhelmingly preferred -
> - and those who prefer Williams prefer him on the simple non-poetic
> grounds that it's shorter -- but they like "Refusal to Mourn" and
> "Rage Against the Dying of the Light" way more than "Fern Hill",
> which produced the pre-emptively funny comment at the end: "Blah de
> blah de blah!"
>
> Even Thomas at his most musical is not liked by working class people
> when his sense doesn't follow his music pretty transparently; and
> Williams's sense seems so transparent, except for the damned
> chickens, that there's no music, and no poetry, perceived by most of
> these working class folks. Nearly everyone asks "Why is that poetry?"
> or "What makes that a poem?" and similar questions.
>
> Perhaps we should refine our notions of "working class" in order to
> better examine why our experiences seem so different.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

The wall between where we are
and the Self is called the mind.
                       --S.J. Bharati




From marcus  Fri Sep 19 10:28:00 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:28:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <F5EC3280-EAA8-11D7-9DE6-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
References: <3F6AB526.7173.1C52B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F6ADA30.18599.AD0271@localhost>

Marcus Bales wrote:
> > Perhaps we should refine our notions of "working class" in order to
> > better examine why our experiences seem so different.

Wendy Battin: 
> Or perhaps we should accept that our observations are extremely 
> selective and have more to do with who we are as observers than with
> any reliable generalization about a large and diverse group of people.
>  It's safe to say that if you and Sam and I walked into any control
> group, we'd come out with three very different reports of who was
> there and what they had on their minds.

If you accept that view you have to accept with it that there can be 
no literature, for no comment about anything can have meaning for 
anyone but the experiencer, and that meaning is incommunicable, 
because experience for each experiencer is too different to be 
communicated because the experiencers cannot even agree on such broad 
notions as what constitutes "the working class".

If there can be no agreement about what is meant when things such as 
"working class" or "enjoys poetry" or "poetry", even within roughly 
zones, are said, because each observer experiences such a different 
world that the experiences are incommunicable, then communication 
gets reduced to brute levels, if there can be any at all. 

That sort of view is widely held, it seems to me, among contemporary 
free verse writers: they think solipsistically, egoistically if not 
egotistically, because they have abandoned the possibility of art in 
favor of blurt.  I can see why, for it follows that if communication 
is impossible then blurt, self-expression for self-gratification, is 
all that is left. What I wonder is why those who hold such opinions 
would imagine that anyone else should care what they blurt. 

What theory of art can be based on the notion that we can't 
communicate? 










From paul.lake  Fri Sep 19 10:48:17 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:48:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mind and Nature
In-Reply-To: <3F6A24AF.93C3F793@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BB908160.5492%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Nope, they're just bad rebellious little monkeys.

Paul


on 9/18/03 4:33 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:

> So, the Enron CEOs and their ilk are exempt from evolutionary forces?
> 
> - Jim
> 
> Paul Lake wrote:
>> 
>> Here's an article from today's Salon that touches on the notion that mind
>> grows out of nature and maybe even precedes human consciousness. Though far
>> from clear or definitive, the little study is suggestive. Perhaps even
>> supposedly "culturally constructed" ideas like "fairness" and "justice" are
>> rooted in nature. Perhaps Wilde and the wild are not so far apart.
>> 
>> Paul Lake
>> 
>> Study shows monkeys may resent unfairness
>> 
>> - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> By Alex Dominguez
>> 
>> Sept. 17, 2003 ?|? Humans aren't the only ones who hate a bum deal, it turns
>> out.
>> 
>> In a recent study, brown capuchin monkeys trained to exchange a granite
>> token for a cucumber treat often refused the swap if they saw another monkey
>> get a better payoff -- a grape.
>> 
>> Instead, they often threw the token, refused to eat the piece of cucumber,
>> or even gave it to the other capuchin after viewing the lopsided deal, said
>> Emory University researcher Sarah Brosnan.
>> 
>> She said the results indicate man and monkey may have inherited a sense of
>> fairness from an evolutionary ancestor.
>> 
>> "This implies we evolved this way," said Brosnan, whose work with colleague
>> Frans B.M. de Waal is reported in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature.
>> 
>> The trait may have helped species cooperate and survive, Brosnan said.
>> 
>> However, Charles Janson, who studies capuchins at the State University of
>> New York at Stony Brook and was not involved in the research, suggested the
>> monkeys' behavior may have been learned in captivity, rather than inherited
>> as an evolutionary adaptation.
>> 
>> Brosnan said she doubted the behavior was learned, saying most animals
>> "cannot learn things which they do not naturally do in the wild."
>> 
>> "More importantly, however, learning behavior requires that individuals get
>> rewarded for performing a specific behavior," Brosnan said. "In our test,
>> the subject actually received less reward for refusing to exchange."
>> 
>> The researchers, at Emory's Yerkes National Primate Research Center, studied
>> five female monkeys, testing them two at a time.
>> 
>> When both monkeys were given a cucumber slice after handing over the token,
>> they completed the trade 95 percent of the time.
>> 
>> But when one was given the tastier grape for the same amount of work, the
>> rate of cooperation from the other monkey fell to 60 percent, with the
>> cheated primate sometimes throwing the token, refusing the cucumber or
>> giving the cucumber to the other monkey. And when one didn't have to do
>> anything to get a grape, the other made the trade for the cucumber only 20
>> percent of the time.
>> 
>> The refusal to make the exchange increased as the experiment went on, the
>> researchers reported.
>> 
>> "They were not happy with me," Brosnan said, although she later added that
>> she couldn't really know what the monkeys' emotions were.
>> 
>> The scientists concluded that capuchins apparently measure rewards in
>> relative terms, comparing their rewards to those available, as well as their
>> efforts to those of others.
>> 
>> Small and highly animated with faces that resemble wizened old men, the
>> tropical forest-dwelling capuchins were chosen for the experiment because
>> they often share food.
>> 
>> Brosnan, who said she is now conducting similar studies with chimpanzees,
>> noted that the capuchin that got the grape didn't react at all to the
>> unjustness of the situation. That "probably implies there is still a lot of
>> difference between their sense of fairness and ours," she said.
>> 
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
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From William_Knott  Fri Sep 19 11:01:43 2003
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:01:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1688 - 10 msgs
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF7D@mail.emerson.edu>

Dear Paul Lake:

I obviously didn't make myself clear: I'm not a member of the Avantgarde, and I don't
"applaud" their position. . .  

Your opponent is this debate is not me.  Don't waste your time on a small potato like me.

But I think you should try to refute the famous writers I quoted or referred to . . .  They represent the arguments that counter or complicate yours.

??Bill Knott 



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From paul.lake  Fri Sep 19 11:47:28 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:47:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1688 - 10 msgs
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF7D@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <BB908F40.5498%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/19/03 10:01 AM, William Knott at William_Knott at emerson.edu wrote:

> Dear Paul Lake:
> 
> I obviously didn't make myself clear: I'm not a member of the Avantgarde, and
> I don't
> "applaud" their position. . .
> 
> Your opponent is this debate is not me.  Don't waste your time on a small
> potato like me.
> 
> But I think you should try to refute the famous writers I quoted or referred
> to . . .  They represent the arguments that counter or complicate yours.
> 
> ??Bill Knott 
> 
> 
> 
> 
I was already aiming at their arguments as you presented them. Sorry if I
mistook your position.  I think that those who make an idol of "the
transgressive" would have a sudden change of heart if they were, say,
kidnapped and brutalized by someone who took more than an intellectual
interest in the subject.

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From DICK  Fri Sep 19 13:33:32 2003
From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 03 13:33:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
Message-ID: <200309191741.h8JHfvkQ072356@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com>

I spend about equal time among formalists and free-versers, and
while formalists spend quite a lot of breath and energy defending
their own taste and attacking free versers', the latter barely
mention formalism, beyond to recognize its existence if the subject
should arise.  There's none of the zeal for their own style
and elaborate disparagements or "scientific" refutations of formal
verse.

Why is that, I wonder?
Richard



From paul.lake  Fri Sep 19 13:51:18 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:51:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <200309191741.h8JHfvkQ072356@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <BB90AC46.549C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/19/03 12:33 PM, DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com at
DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com wrote:

> I spend about equal time among formalists and free-versers, and
> while formalists spend quite a lot of breath and energy defending
> their own taste and attacking free versers', the latter barely
> mention formalism, beyond to recognize its existence if the subject
> should arise.  There's none of the zeal for their own style
> and elaborate disparagements or "scientific" refutations of formal
> verse.
> 
> Why is that, I wonder?
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
A). They're in the mainstream, reaping jobs, grants, awards, recognition.
Why bother? 
B). They haven't the wit.


P. S. My own work doesn't actually disparage free verse; it's more nuanced
than that. See "Disorderly Orders" at CPR for my take on "free verse," a
term I find misleading.

P. P. S. Actually, there have been a number of disparaging essays and
remarks made by free verse writers about formal verse, including the
disparaging term "New Formalists" itself. See Olson's "Project Verse" for a
start.


Paul Lake

---
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From paul.lake  Fri Sep 19 15:02:37 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:02:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <200309191741.h8JHfvkQ072356@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <BB90BCFC.549F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/19/03 12:33 PM, DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com at
DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com wrote:

> I spend about equal time among formalists and free-versers, and
> while formalists spend quite a lot of breath and energy defending
> their own taste and attacking free versers', the latter barely
> mention formalism, beyond to recognize its existence if the subject
> should arise.  There's none of the zeal for their own style
> and elaborate disparagements or "scientific" refutations of formal
> verse.
> 
> Why is that, I wonder?
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
Richard a more serious answer to this than my first tongue-in-cheek response
would be that from Ezra Pound to the present, the onus has been on formal,
not free, verse. Pound talked of composing by the "musical phrase" versus
composing by "the metronome"; of verse that grows like a tree versus poetry
like water poured into a vase. From Pound's generation to the present,
almost all of the rhetoric regarding poetry has been stacked in favor of
free verse. Think of Olson's "Open Poetry" versus "Closed Poetry." When New
Formalism first began getting serious notice in the 80's, Wayne Dodd called
formal poetics "Reganetics." Ariel Dawson called the New Formalists "Yuppie
Poets." My essays have been a counter-argument to the drift of 20th and 21st
century rhetoric on the subject of poetic form. And "The Enchanted Loom"
takes aim at postmodern schools of thought that further marginalize and
demonize formal structures in poetry and language. Sometimes my own rhetoric
has been a little too heated or one-sided as a result of my defensive
posture. In an ideal world, we wouldn't be fighting over whether poem in
strict meter is better or worse than "free" verse haunted by its ghost.

Paul Lake

---
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From bobgrumman  Fri Sep 19 16:55:08 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:55:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <00f001c37e19$efa73220$bb13fea9@j1c1k6> <3F6AB526.7173.1C52B3@localhost>
Message-ID: <019901c37ef0$4f9f5a00$1124fea9@j1c1k6>

> > Dylan Thomas is still powerful among the working-class folks I know,
> > and that's clearly not because he's easy to understand.  W.C.
> > Williams, ditto.  They both live on their music.
>
> Well, look at the things, especially from Thomas, that are
> remembered: it's stuff that is pretty easy to understand. Williams is
> remembered more in bafflement than wonder, to judge by the working
> class folks I know. We have poetry day once a week here at DG where I
> distribute a copy of and then read aloud a well-respected poem. I've
> used both Thomas and Williams and Thomas is overwhelmingly preferred -
> - and those who prefer Williams prefer him on the simple non-poetic
> grounds that it's shorter -- but they like "Refusal to Mourn" and
> "Rage Against the Dying of the Light" way more than "Fern Hill",
> which produced the pre-emptively funny comment at the end: "Blah de
> blah de blah!"
>
> Even Thomas at his most musical is not liked by working class people
> when his sense doesn't follow his music pretty transparently; and
> Williams's sense seems so transparent, except for the damned
> chickens, that there's no music, and no poetry, perceived by most of
> these working class folks. Nearly everyone asks "Why is that poetry?"
> or "What makes that a poem?" and similar questions.
>
> Perhaps we should refine our notions of "working class" in order to
> better examine why our experiences seem so different.


You might also consider dividing working class readers of poetry into those
knowledgeable and those not knowledgeable about poetry, meaning by
"knowledgeable" having, say, a year's experience of reading poetry for
pleasure.  My point here is that it isn't too fair to consider the likes and
dislikes in poetry of any group never exposed to serious poetry.  What would
happen if you gathered a hundred working class people with no real
experience of poetry and let someone fairly sympathetic to both formal verse
and free verse (a David Graham, for instance) discuss poetry with them
weekly for a year, and then determine their likes and dislikes.  Why judge
anything on the basis of how much the ignorant like it?

If we find that mostpeople much prefer formal verse to free verse, does that
mean poets should give up free verse?  If we found that mostpeople much
prefer prose to any kind of poetry, as I'm sure we would if we investigated
the matter, should writers give up poetry?

The only poetry I liked until my late teens was light verse.  Then I fell
for Keats.  I was nineteen when Cummings made me an afficionado of visual
poetry.  I think I was into my twenties when I got hooked by haiku--which
seem to me both free verse and very formal.  I was past thirty before I
accepted conventional free verse as having any merit as poetry.  I fear I
still don't have huge respect for it, for I consider it more a stepping
stone to more complex innovations than a brilliantly effective innovation on
its own.  Should I have stopped with Keats?  Or with light verse?

--Bob G.






From bobgrumman  Fri Sep 19 17:25:15 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:25:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
References: <200309191741.h8JHfvkQ072356@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <006901c37ef4$854334c0$0ef2fea9@j1c1k6>

> I spend about equal time among formalists and free-versers, and
> while formalists spend quite a lot of breath and energy defending
> their own taste and attacking free versers', the latter barely
> mention formalism, beyond to recognize its existence if the subject
> should arise.  There's none of the zeal for their own style
> and elaborate disparagements or "scientific" refutations of formal
> verse.
>
> Why is that, I wonder?
> Richard

I think a significant part of the reason for this is that conventional
free-versers are kings of the hill and a king of any hill tends to ignore
rivals--until they are three-quarters of the way up the hill.  Amusingly, in
the poetry avant garde, it's the language poets who are the kings of the
hill, and they rarely heap scorn on other avant garde poets, although the
latter heap scorn on them all the time.

In the larger world, where language poets are not hill-kings, they spend a
lot of time deriding free-versers.  Just as formalists do.

As a complete outsider, I find free-versers starting to inveigh against
language poets more than they do against formalists.  This, in my opinion,
is in large part because language poetry is starting to threaten their
status.  I don't think free-versers feel threatened by formalists because
they have already defeated them.

--Bob G.




From halvard  Fri Sep 19 17:36:13 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:36:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <019901c37ef0$4f9f5a00$1124fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIELHHFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    Why judge anything on the basis of how much the ignorant like it?

Great question, especially if one omits the last ten words.

Hal      "The dirt is the mark of your deep love of the tool."

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From bobgrumman  Fri Sep 19 17:43:08 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:43:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <3F6AB526.7173.1C52B3@localhost> <3F6ADA30.18599.AD0271@localhost>
Message-ID: <00d801c37ef7$04798300$0ef2fea9@j1c1k6>

SNIP TO:

> If there can be no agreement about what is meant when things such as
> "working class" or "enjoys poetry" or "poetry", even within roughly
> zones, are said, because each observer experiences such a different
> world that the experiences are incommunicable, then communication
> gets reduced to brute levels, if there can be any at all.
>
> That sort of view is widely held, it seems to me, among contemporary
> free verse writers:

I would love to hear examples of contemporary free verse writers who don't
think communication is possible.   If you said, "contemporary language
poets," I wouldn't think your statement was quite so ridiculous.  A lot of
contemporary language poets are on record as doubting the efficacy of
communication, etc.  But it is a too-common failing of their critics to
criticize the works of language poets (and most other creative artists) on
the basis of their criticism rather than on the basis of their art (which
more often than not contradicts their criticism.

> they think solipsistically, egoistically if not
> egotistically, because they have abandoned the possibility of art in
> favor of blurt.  I can see why, for it follows that if communication
> is impossible then blurt, self-expression for self-gratification, is
> all that is left.

That's not true.  Making for the sake of making is another possibility.

>What I wonder is why those who hold such opinions
> would imagine that anyone else should care what they blurt.

What you should wonder is why they hold opinions that their work
contradicts.  I suspect it's because they're poets, and thus not too capable
of reasoning.

> What theory of art can be based on the notion that we can't
> communicate?

What art is based on such a theory?  I would say: none.  Unless it is of a
non-expressive art--which would posit artworks that do not communicate but
ARE.  Does a banana communicate anything?  If not, can it not be enjoyed for
what it is, anyway?  I think much music and many paintings and sculpture
communicate very little, but are good in themselves just as a banana is (for
those who like the taste of them).

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Fri Sep 19 18:00:51 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 18:00:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
References: <BB90AC46.549C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <014301c37ef9$7e6af0c0$0ef2fea9@j1c1k6>

> P. S. My own work doesn't actually disparage free verse; it's more nuanced
> than that. See "Disorderly Orders" at CPR for my take on "free verse," a
> term I find misleading.

I tried to but can't afford $6 a month to be allowed to.  Any cheap way to
read it?  I'm especially interested in why you find the term, "free verse,"
misleading.  I do, too, but for different reasons than you do, I'm pretty
sure.  (I hope your reasons don't include the fact that free verse isn't
"verse.")  I call conventional free verse "plaintext verse," to distinguish
it from later forms of free verse such as visual poetry.  For me, "verse,"
is a synonym for "poetry."

--Bob G.




From JforJames  Fri Sep 19 22:35:25 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:35:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
Message-ID: <68.34ecf0e2.2c9d16ed@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/18/03 10:50:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:

>  I don't know whether Williams ever adequately explaimed 
>  {    himself re the significance of that red wheelbarrow, but I 
>  {    always see a ghost "(sic)" trailing this poem.
>  {    Finnegan
>  
>  Then, you think he *should* have explained it?

No, I think an implicit "(sic)" was part of a very
conscious provocation on his part. 
Finnegan



From JforJames  Fri Sep 19 22:41:26 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:41:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
Message-ID: <110.281b5d0d.2c9d1856@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/18/03 11:54:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes:

> In the Voices & Visions video, it's simply a matter of listening to the 
>  average Joe or Jane on the street trying to *read* the poem.  It's 
> interesting.
I would say that's expected...this poem was not meant for them. 
It was meant for the "art insiders" Willaims was rubbing elbows with. 
Finnegan



From grahamd  Fri Sep 19 23:08:01 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:08:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Disenchanting Wheelbarrow
In-Reply-To: <110.281b5d0d.2c9d1856@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BB912EC0.4555%grahamd@ripon.edu>

>> In the Voices & Visions video, it's simply a matter of listening to the
>> average Joe or Jane on the street trying to *read* the poem.  It's
>> interesting.
> I would say that's expected...this poem was not meant for them.
> It was meant for the "art insiders" Willaims was rubbing elbows with.
> Finnegan 

Also, it looks from the video as if the TV producer just shoved "The Red
Wheelbarrow" under people's noses and had them read it cold.  Few people on
the street could effectively read *anything* under those circumstances, I
would wager-- even Joyce Kilmer's "Trees."

I am heartily tired of "The Red Wheelbarrow," myself.  Not only is it almost
always yanked out of its context in *Spring & All*, but it's just not very
interesting verbally, and the trick of not specifying what "so much" is,
exactly, gets old fast.  Williams has so many better short lyrics, many of
them rarely anthologized.

As long as I'm venting, I am equally tired of the common view of WCW as
simple backyard lyricist writing plain stuff for average Janes and Joes.
Granted, that's a view he sometimes encouraged (rather as Frost did), but
WCW was many sorts of writer, including a pure aesthete, a cubist, a
satirist, a political ranter, a love poet, and a proletarian portraitist.  A
good deal of what he wrote strikes me as muddled or fragmentary, but the
good stuff is marvelous indeed, and durable.

Average Janes may or may not think "The Red Wheelbarrow" is even a poem (few
of my students go for it), but many of his poems speak quite powerfully to
the common reader, in my experience--poems like "Death," "The Act," and "The
Last Words of My English Grandmother."  And Kenneth Koch showed that
elementary school kids flat-out love "This is Just To Say."

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================




From JforJames  Fri Sep 19 23:08:33 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:08:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
Message-ID: <d3.227050af.2c9d1eb1@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/19/03 1:43:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com writes:

> I spend about equal time among formalists and free-versers, and
>  while formalists spend quite a lot of breath and energy defending
>  their own taste and attacking free versers', the latter barely
>  mention formalism, beyond to recognize its existence if the subject
>  should arise.  There's none of the zeal for their own style
>  and elaborate disparagements or "scientific" refutations of formal
>  verse.
>  
Richard,
Early on there was a bit more of that "justification writing" going on. 
But now free verse, which was beginning to percolate in the consciousness
back in 19th century, is all about "res ipsa loquitur."  Poets of 
vers libre persuasion haven't the need, at this point, to invoke a "Neural 
Liar."
Finnegan



From wjbat  Sat Sep 20 00:46:15 2003
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 00:46:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <d3.227050af.2c9d1eb1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5E2C5E18-EB25-11D7-96E5-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

Because writing in free verse doesn't preclude loving formal verse?  I 
don't have much sympathy for the whole argument, frankly; it seems all 
straw to me.  I fell in love with Yeats and Pound and Stevens and Eliot 
as a kid (working-class kid, no less, and without benefit of teachers,) 
  and the whole jihad against free verse seems damned petty to me.

Perhaps it's just a labor-saving device: if you denounce an entire 
mode, you save yourself the trouble of wading through all the dreck to 
find the good stuff.  We're all guilty of that to some extent.  But 
that's not grounds for an aesthetic.

Wendy

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
Contemporary American Poetry Archive  http://capa.conncoll.edu




From bobgrumman  Sat Sep 20 07:28:56 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:28:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
References: <5E2C5E18-EB25-11D7-96E5-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <015a01c37f6a$61549560$66d4fea9@j1c1k6>

I'm sure you're not responding to anything of mine, Wendy (who is?), but
what ARE you responding to?

--Bob G. (Who considers the very formal "The Red Wheelbarrow" one of the
best, and "This Is Just To Say," one of the worst poems in English.)


> Because writing in free verse doesn't preclude loving formal verse?  I
> don't have much sympathy for the whole argument, frankly; it seems all
> straw to me.  I fell in love with Yeats and Pound and Stevens and Eliot
> as a kid (working-class kid, no less, and without benefit of teachers,)
>   and the whole jihad against free verse seems damned petty to me.
>
> Perhaps it's just a labor-saving device: if you denounce an entire
> mode, you save yourself the trouble of wading through all the dreck to
> find the good stuff.  We're all guilty of that to some extent.  But
> that's not grounds for an aesthetic.
>
> Wendy
>
> Wendy Battin
> wjbat at conncoll.edu
> Contemporary American Poetry Archive  http://capa.conncoll.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman  Sat Sep 20 07:40:48 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:40:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <68.34ecf0e2.2c9d16ed@aol.com>
Message-ID: <016801c37f6c$096ade20$66d4fea9@j1c1k6>

> >  I don't know whether Williams ever adequately explaimed
> >  {    himself re the significance of that red wheelbarrow, but I
> >  {    always see a ghost "(sic)" trailing this poem.
> >  {    Finnegan
> >
> >  Then, you think he *should* have explained it?
>
> No, I think an implicit "(sic)" was part of a very
> conscious provocation on his part.
> Finnegan

I thought someone posted something to New Poetry on this recently: the post
indicated that Williams did describe the background of the poem in some
detail--how he'd come to write it, etc.--and what he said DID pretty much
explain the poem (as what I've always thought it to be: a statement about
the high value of sensually happy moments, to put it baldly and not well).

--Bob G.




From halvard  Sat Sep 20 08:49:28 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:49:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <5E2C5E18-EB25-11D7-96E5-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEMGHFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

But, hey, Wendy, speaking as a free verse writer myself, I'd have to
remind you that this is the Age of Bushism--if you're not totally with
us, you are totally against us, and we'll hunt you down no matter
what cave you hide in. Aren't those formalists just freedom haters?

Hal


{    Because writing in free verse doesn't preclude loving formal verse?  I 
{    don't have much sympathy for the whole argument, frankly; it seems all 
{    straw to me.  I fell in love with Yeats and Pound and Stevens and Eliot 
{    as a kid (working-class kid, no less, and without benefit of teachers,) 
{      and the whole jihad against free verse seems damned petty to me.
{    
{    Perhaps it's just a labor-saving device: if you denounce an entire 
{    mode, you save yourself the trouble of wading through all the dreck to 
{    find the good stuff.  We're all guilty of that to some extent.  But 
{    that's not grounds for an aesthetic.
{    
{    Wendy
{    
{    Wendy Battin
{    wjbat at conncoll.edu
{    Contemporary American Poetry Archive  http://capa.conncoll.edu




From marcus  Sat Sep 20 09:21:24 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:21:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIELHHFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <019901c37ef0$4f9f5a00$1124fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3F6C1C14.20651.78A14@localhost>

On 19 Sep 2003 at 17:36, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> {    Why judge anything on the basis of how much the ignorant like it?
> 
> Great question, especially if one omits the last ten words.

Because then you live like a beast, amid the war of all against all, 
and your life is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.  







From wjbat  Sat Sep 20 09:28:31 2003
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:28:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <015a01c37f6a$61549560$66d4fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <53FF6948-EB6E-11D7-9AA5-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Saturday, September 20, 2003, at 07:28 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> I'm sure you're not responding to anything of mine, Wendy (who is?), 
> but
> what ARE you responding to?

Sorry to confuse you, Bob.  I was responding to Richard's post, which 
was, I think, the first in this thread:
> I spend about equal time among formalists and free-versers, and
> while formalists spend quite a lot of breath and energy defending
> their own taste and attacking free versers', the latter barely
> mention formalism, beyond to recognize its existence if the subject
> should arise.  There's none of the zeal for their own style
> and elaborate disparagements or "scientific" refutations of formal
> verse.
>
> Why is that, I wonder?

> Richard


Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
--------------------------

Just as a coil of rope
Is mistaken for a snake,
So you are mistaken for the world.
                                        -Ashtavakra Gita




From bobgrumman  Sat Sep 20 10:04:18 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:04:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <019901c37ef0$4f9f5a00$1124fea9@j1c1k6> <3F6C1C14.20651.78A14@localhost>
Message-ID: <01ed01c37f80$15e0c7a0$66d4fea9@j1c1k6>

> On 19 Sep 2003 at 17:36, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> > {    Why judge anything on the basis of how much the ignorant like it?
> >
> > Great question, especially if one omits the last ten words.

That sounds a bit like a judgement to me, Halvard.  But I'm sure it was
sincere, and you read ALL published poetry, while not judging the reading of
poetry more worth your time than watching television, playing checkers,
taking a bath, etc., all of which you also do, simultaneously.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Sat Sep 20 10:11:39 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:11:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
References: <5E2C5E18-EB25-11D7-96E5-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <020701c37f81$1cd47420$66d4fea9@j1c1k6>

Thanks for telling me what the following was a response to, Wendy.

> Because writing in free verse doesn't preclude loving formal verse?  I
> don't have much sympathy for the whole argument, frankly; it seems all
> straw to me.  I fell in love with Yeats and Pound and Stevens and Eliot
> as a kid (working-class kid, no less, and without benefit of teachers,)
>   and the whole jihad against free verse seems damned petty to me.

Mostly, I agree.  But when conventional free verse is all that gets
significantly anthologized, taught, and discussed by critics read by more
than a hundred people, I can sympathize with those composing other kinds of
poetry who sound off against it (as I sometimes do, myself, much as I
recognize that tending to my own art is vastly more important).

> Perhaps it's just a labor-saving device: if you denounce an entire
> mode, you save yourself the trouble of wading through all the dreck to
> find the good stuff.  We're all guilty of that to some extent.  But
> that's not grounds for an aesthetic.
>
> Wendy

I can't believe ANY mode can be worth denouncing in its entirety.  Except
for anything Marcus likes. . . .

Bob G.




From JforJames  Sat Sep 20 10:20:50 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:20:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
Message-ID: <14e.23eabf05.2c9dbc42@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/20/03 7:42:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> >  I don't know whether Williams ever adequately explaimed
>  > >  {    himself re the significance of that red wheelbarrow, but I
>  > >  {    always see a ghost "(sic)" trailing this poem.
>  > >  {    Finnegan
>  > >
>  > >  Then, you think he *should* have explained it?
>  >
>  > No, I think an implicit "(sic)" was part of a very
>  > conscious provocation on his part.
>  > Finnegan
>  
>  I thought someone posted something to New Poetry on this recently: the post
>  indicated that Williams did describe the background of the poem in some
>  detail--how he'd come to write it, etc.--and what he said DID pretty much
>  explain the poem (as what I've always thought it to be: a statement about
>  the high value of sensually happy moments, to put it baldly and not well).
>  
Bob, I think David Graham said WCW had explained it (somewhat). And DG 
also mentioned that the poem was cropped from the larger work "Spring & All." 
The other thing he suggested was that Williams ran with a pretty fast crowd...
as he became aware of the currents and happenings around him, he changed 
aesthetically and became a thoroughly Modernist Millie. 
But the thing is about The Red Wheelbarrow is that it's taken on a life of
its own. It's a Modernist touchstone. An aesthetic line in the sand, so to
speak. Minimalist, imagistic and rhetorically gnomic & cryptic, it asks to be 
argued with. Maybe a better metaphor is that of a limbo bar set very low. 
How low can you go?: It invites the reader's sensibility to bend over 
backwards, to get under it while not dislodging it from a state of "poemness."
Finnegan
BTW, there's a cute little book by Sharon Creech called _Love That Dog_.
It's for youngsters & young adults (even freshman in an Intro to Poetry 
class might enjoy the humor in it...I know I laughed). The book is a series 
of short dated entries in the voice of a boy named Jack in Room 105, a 
Miss Stretchberry's class. She's trying to teach the reluctant youth 
about poetry and one poem they work on is Red Wheelbarrow...the 
short poem-like entries go like this:

September 27

I don't understand
the poem about
the red wheelbarrow
and the white chickens
and why so much
depends upon
them.

If that is a poem
about the red wheelbarrow
and the white chickens
then any words
can be a poem.
You've just go to 
make 
short
lines.


October 4

Do you promise
not to read it
out loud?
Do you promise
not to put it 
on the board?

Okay, here it is,
but I don't like it.

    "So much depends
    upon 
    a blue car
    splattered with mud
    speeding down the road."


October 10

What do you mean--
"Why does so much depend
upon
a blue car?"

You didn't say before
that I had to tell "why."   

The wheelbarrow guy
didn't tell "why."  


October 17

What was up with
the snowy woods poem
you read today?

Why doesn't the person just
keep going if he's got
so many miles to go
before he sleeps?

And why do I have to tell more
about the blue car
splattered with mud
speeding down the road?

I don't want to
write about that blue car
that had miles to go
before it slept,
so many miles to go
in such a hurry.


October 24

I am sorry to say
I did not really understand
the tiger tiger burning bright poem
but at least it sounded good
in my ears.

Here is the blue car
with tiger sounds:

    "Blue car, blue car, shining bright
    in the darkness of the night:
    who could see you speeding by
    like a comet in the sky?

    I could see you in the night,
    blue car, blue car, shining bright.
    I could see you speeding by
    like a comet in the sky."

Some of the tiger sounds
are still in my ears
like drums
beat-beat-beating.


 



From JforJames  Sat Sep 20 10:27:25 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:27:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
Message-ID: <151.2438b409.2c9dbdcd@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/20/03 7:42:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> >  I don't know whether Williams ever adequately explaimed
>  > >  {    himself re the significance of that red wheelbarrow, but I
>  > >  {    always see a ghost "(sic)" trailing this poem.
>  > >  {    Finnegan
>  > >
>  > >  Then, you think he *should* have explained it?
>  >
>  > No, I think an implicit "(sic)" was part of a very
>  > conscious provocation on his part.
>  > Finnegan
>  
>  I thought someone posted something to New Poetry on this recently: the post
>  indicated that Williams did describe the background of the poem in some
>  detail--how he'd come to write it, etc.--and what he said DID pretty much
>  explain the poem (as what I've always thought it to be: a statement about
>  the high value of sensually happy moments, to put it baldly and not well).
>  
Bob, I think David Graham said WCW had explained it (somewhat). And DG 
also mentioned that the poem was cropped from the larger work "Spring & All." 
The other thing he suggested was that Williams ran with a pretty fast crowd...
as he became aware of the currents and happenings around him, he changed 
aesthetically and became a thoroughly Modernist Millie. 
But the thing is about The Red Wheelbarrow is that it's taken on a life of
its own. It's a Modernist touchstone. An aesthetic line in the sand, so to
speak. Minimalist, imagistic and rhetorically gnomic & cryptic, it asks to be 
argued with. Maybe a better metaphor is that of a limbo bar set very low. 
How low can you go?: It invites the reader's sensibility to bend over 
backwards, to get under it while not dislodging it from a state of "poemness."
Finnegan
BTW, there's a cute little book by Sharon Creech called _Love That Dog_.
It's for youngsters & young adults (even freshman in an Intro to Poetry 
class might enjoy the humor in it...I know I laughed). The book is a series 
of short dated entries in the voice of a boy named Jack in Room 105, a 
Miss Stretchberry's class. She's trying to teach the reluctant youth 
about poetry and one poem they work on is Red Wheelbarrow...the 
short poem-like entries go like this:

September 27

I don't understand
the poem about
the red wheelbarrow
and the white chickens
and why so much
depends upon
them.

If that is a poem
about the red wheelbarrow
and the white chickens
then any words
can be a poem.
You've just go to 
make 
short
lines.


October 4

Do you promise
not to read it
out loud?
Do you promise
not to put it 
on the board?

Okay, here it is,
but I don't like it.

    "So much depends
    upon 
    a blue car
    splattered with mud
    speeding down the road."


October 10

What do you mean--
"Why does so much depend
upon
a blue car?"

You didn't say before
that I had to tell "why."   

The wheelbarrow guy
didn't tell "why."  


October 17

What was up with
the snowy woods poem
you read today?

Why doesn't the person just
keep going if he's got
so many miles to go
before he sleeps?

And why do I have to tell more
about the blue car
splattered with mud
speeding down the road?

I don't want to
write about that blue car
that had miles to go
before it slept,
so many miles to go
in such a hurry.


October 24

I am sorry to say
I did not really understand
the tiger tiger burning bright poem
but at least it sounded good
in my ears.

Here is the blue car
with tiger sounds:

    "Blue car, blue car, shining bright
    in the darkness of the night:
    who could see you speeding by
    like a comet in the sky?

    I could see you in the night,
    blue car, blue car, shining bright.
    I could see you speeding by
    like a comet in the sky."

Some of the tiger sounds
are still in my ears
like drums
beat-beat-beating.




From marcus  Sat Sep 20 10:55:34 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:55:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <5E2C5E18-EB25-11D7-96E5-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
References: <d3.227050af.2c9d1eb1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F6C3226.2540.5DC086@localhost>

> Because writing in free verse doesn't preclude loving formal verse?<<

Sure it does: because the entire matrix within which "formal verse" 
exists is antithetical to the very notion of "free verse". Free verse 
deliberately set out to discard the adulterant of verse in order to 
try to get poetry pure. If you write free verse you must, perforce, 
reject all that formal verse stands for -- and if you don't, well, 
then, on what grounds do you claim that your free verse is free, 
verse, or any good within its own terms?






From marcus  Sat Sep 20 11:07:56 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:07:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <014301c37ef9$7e6af0c0$0ef2fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3F6C350C.11423.69147A@localhost>

On 19 Sep 2003 at 18:00, Bob Grumman wrote:
> ... For me, "verse," is a synonym for "poetry."

In my view it is nonsense to claim verse is a synonym for poetry for 
the same reason it is nonsense to claim that batting practice is a 
synonym for hitting, or that a quotation is a synonym for an invoice, 
or that welding is a synonym for sculpture.









From kellogg  Sat Sep 20 11:25:19 2003
From: kellogg (David Kellogg)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:25:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <00d801c37ef7$04798300$0ef2fea9@j1c1k6>
References: <3F6AB526.7173.1C52B3@localhost>
 <3F6ADA30.18599.AD0271@localhost> <00d801c37ef7$04798300$0ef2fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <44512435.1064057119@async48-37.async.duke.edu>

I'm in the midst of composing a critical response to Paul Lake's "Enchanted 
Loom" essay.  Thanks, by the way, for sharing it, Paul.

I'm curious, though -- can anybody tell me who edits the Contemporary 
Poetry Review, where it appeared?  The website is strangely anonymous. 



From marcus  Sat Sep 20 11:38:23 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:38:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <00d801c37ef7$04798300$0ef2fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3F6C3C2F.5477.84F1D2@localhost>

Examples of contemporary free verse writers who can't think 
communication is possible include, evidently from what she's said, 
Wendy Battin and whatever others also say there can be no agreement 
about what is meant when terms such as 'working class' are employed. 
That position entails thinking communication is not possible.

So long as blurtists don't show the results of their blurting to 
others, who cares why they make it? 

The point is that the moment they DO show it to someone else they are 
making an explicit claim that it is more than merely "making for the 
sake of making" or "self-expression for self-gratification": they're 
making a claim that it is art. But art is NOT a matter of mere making 
for the sake of making nor self-expression for self-gratification; 
art is about making things in the cultural context in which an artist 
finds him- or herself.

Bob Grumman:
> ... non-expressive art ... would posit artworks that do not
> communicate but ARE.  Does a banana communicate anything?
>  If not, can it not be enjoyed for what it is, anyway?<<

Well, once you go so far as to claim that things such as bananas or 
canyons or rivers and the like are art it seems to me that you're in 
calling-a-tail-a-leg territory.  How many legs does a dog have if you 
call a tail a leg? Four, because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it 
one.







From kellogg  Sat Sep 20 11:55:36 2003
From: kellogg (David Kellogg)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:55:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <3F6C3C2F.5477.84F1D2@localhost>
References: <3F6C3C2F.5477.84F1D2@localhost>
Message-ID: <46329938.1064058936@async48-37.async.duke.edu>


--On Saturday, September 20, 2003 11:38 AM -0400 Marcus Bales 
<marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

> Examples of contemporary free verse writers who can't think
> communication is possible include, evidently from what she's said,
> Wendy Battin and whatever others also say there can be no agreement
> about what is meant when terms such as 'working class' are employed.
> That position entails thinking communication is not possible.

Oh, bull.  A term like "working class" is not subject to universal 
agreement for a lot of reasons: it is an abstraction, it is used by 
different people to mean different things, and people who use it have 
interests in sustaining their views.  Nothing to do at all with whether 
communication is possible.

The space where such disagreements happen may well be a site of 
communication even if the disagreement remains.  (It may be a site of 
something else, of course -- war, for example.)

Best,
David





From grahamd  Sat Sep 20 12:02:43 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:02:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <3F6C3226.2540.5DC086@localhost>
Message-ID: <BB91E453.457E%grahamd@ripon.edu>

> 
>> Because writing in free verse doesn't preclude loving formal verse?<<
> 
> Sure it does: because the entire matrix within which "formal verse"
> exists is antithetical to the very notion of "free verse". Free verse
> deliberately set out to discard the adulterant of verse in order to
> try to get poetry pure. If you write free verse you must, perforce,
> reject all that formal verse stands for -- and if you don't, well,
> then, on what grounds do you claim that your free verse is free,
> verse, or any good within its own terms?
> 

You really have to admire the dog-with-a-bone persistence of this line of
argument, if nothing else.  How many times has this nag been around the
track?  Very few of the best known new formalists, even, would push the
argument this far, or so helpfully expose its ultimate absurdity.

It takes real gumption to wave away in one grand gesture all the notable
poets of the past century who were switch-hitters, writing well both in
meter and free verse--from Eliot and Pound down through James Wright, Sylvia
Plath, Adrienne Rich, and Dana Gioia.  Not to  mention the testimony of all
the readers (Wendy Battin and myself, to name two at random) who just don't
see why one *can't* love both forms, just as one can love both Rembrandt and
Richard Diebenkorn.

Perhaps by persisting in his folly the fool shall become wise.  The Palace
of Wisdom is just around the next bend, no doubt.

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================






From marcus  Sat Sep 20 12:10:44 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:10:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <46329938.1064058936@async48-37.async.duke.edu>
References: <3F6C3C2F.5477.84F1D2@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F6C43C4.25255.A2917F@localhost>

> Oh, bull.  A term like "working class" is not subject to universal
> agreement for a lot of reasons: it is an abstraction, it is used by
> different people to mean different things, and people who use it have
> interests in sustaining their views.  Nothing to do at all with
> whether communication is possible.<<

I carefully posited "within roughly zones" in my initial question 
about whether it was possible to define a notion such as 'working 
class' and 'enjoys poetry' and 'poetry' well enough to talk about. 
Wendy denied it was possible. Well, if it's not possible to define 
one's terms well enough to communicate then it's not possible to 
communicate. Neither she, nor you, can have it both ways.

> The space where such disagreements happen may well be a site of 
> communication even if the disagreement remains.  (It may be a site of
> something else, of course -- war, for example.)<<

Sure -- I mentioned that, too:

> If there can be no agreement about what is meant when things such
> as "working class" or "enjoys poetry" or "poetry", even within
> roughly zones, are said, because each observer experiences such a
> different world that the experiences are incommunicable, then
> communication gets reduced to brute levels, if there can be any at
> all. 

So the question, then, is whether Wendy, and you, evidently, are 
willing to say that war and rape and torture and killing are all 
communications that you're willing to call poetry?

The poetry of rape; the poetry of torture -- the art of rape, the art 
of torture -- are these things you want to countenance as a 
reasonable extension of the notion of art?










From tadrichards  Sat Sep 20 12:47:51 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:47:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
References: <53FF6948-EB6E-11D7-9AA5-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <002d01c37f96$ee4ab040$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

I think there's a difference between loving form and being a formalist.

Tad


 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wendy Battin" <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] blurt?


> On Saturday, September 20, 2003, at 07:28 AM, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > I'm sure you're not responding to anything of mine, Wendy (who is?), 
> > but
> > what ARE you responding to?
> 
> Sorry to confuse you, Bob.  I was responding to Richard's post, which 
> was, I think, the first in this thread:
> > I spend about equal time among formalists and free-versers, and
> > while formalists spend quite a lot of breath and energy defending
> > their own taste and attacking free versers', the latter barely
> > mention formalism, beyond to recognize its existence if the subject
> > should arise.  There's none of the zeal for their own style
> > and elaborate disparagements or "scientific" refutations of formal
> > verse.
> >
> > Why is that, I wonder?
> 
> > Richard
> 
> 
> Wendy Battin
> wjbat at conncoll.edu
> --------------------------
> 
> Just as a coil of rope
> Is mistaken for a snake,
> So you are mistaken for the world.
>                                         -Ashtavakra Gita
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From tadrichards  Sat Sep 20 12:49:19 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:49:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
References: <d3.227050af.2c9d1eb1@aol.com> <3F6C3226.2540.5DC086@localhost>
Message-ID: <003b01c37f97$232bd410$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Marcus - I think it's less and less uncommon for poets to write in both
formal and free styles.


Tad


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] blurt?


> > Because writing in free verse doesn't preclude loving formal verse?<<
>
> Sure it does: because the entire matrix within which "formal verse"
> exists is antithetical to the very notion of "free verse". Free verse
> deliberately set out to discard the adulterant of verse in order to
> try to get poetry pure. If you write free verse you must, perforce,
> reject all that formal verse stands for -- and if you don't, well,
> then, on what grounds do you claim that your free verse is free,
> verse, or any good within its own terms?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman  Sat Sep 20 13:01:15 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:01:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
References: <d3.227050af.2c9d1eb1@aol.com> <3F6C3226.2540.5DC086@localhost>
Message-ID: <027601c37f98$cdb42e40$66d4fea9@j1c1k6>

> > Because writing in free verse doesn't preclude loving formal verse?<<
>
> Sure it does: because the entire matrix within which "formal verse"
> exists is antithetical to the very notion of "free verse". Free verse
> deliberately set out to discard the adulterant of verse in order to
> try to get poetry pure.

Here's your main problem, Marcus.  SOME freeversers focused on getting rid
of meter and rhyme to achieve purity or clarity or simplicity or
unornateness or unstiltedness, etc., but some have seen it as merely a means
of doing poems that achieve different goals than formal verse does.  These
latter have had no trouble also composing formal verse--when they felt it
could do something free verse could not.



> If you write free verse you must, perforce,
> reject all that formal verse stands for -- and if you don't, well,
> then, on what grounds do you claim that your free verse is free,
> verse, or any good within its own terms?

answered.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Sat Sep 20 13:08:45 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:08:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
References: <3F6C350C.11423.69147A@localhost>
Message-ID: <029a01c37f99$da06abe0$66d4fea9@j1c1k6>

> On 19 Sep 2003 at 18:00, Bob Grumman wrote:
> > ... For me, "verse," is a synonym for "poetry."
>
> In my view it is nonsense to claim verse is a synonym for poetry for
> the same reason it is nonsense to claim that batting practice is a
> synonym for hitting, or that a quotation is a synonym for an invoice,
> or that welding is a synonym for sculpture.

I feel the similarly (except in reverse) about "art" being used as a synonym
for "visual art."  Except that I don't consider the claim that "art" should
mean both nonsense.  I forget why I want to use "verse," the way all current
dictionaries I've consulted say it can be used, but I'm sure I had some good
reasons.  Maybe it was only that I wanted a one-syllable word for "poetry."

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Sat Sep 20 13:15:52 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:15:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <3F6C3C2F.5477.84F1D2@localhost>
Message-ID: <02be01c37f9a$d8e3ba40$66d4fea9@j1c1k6>


> Examples of contemporary free verse writers who can't think
> communication is possible include, evidently from what she's said,
> Wendy Battin and whatever others also say there can be no agreement
> about what is meant when terms such as 'working class' are employed.
> That position entails thinking communication is not possible.
>
> So long as blurtists don't show the results of their blurting to
> others, who cares why they make it?
>
> The point is that the moment they DO show it to someone else they are
> making an explicit claim that it is more than merely "making for the
> sake of making" or "self-expression for self-gratification": they're
> making a claim that it is art. But art is NOT a matter of mere making
> for the sake of making nor self-expression for self-gratification;
> art is about making things in the cultural context in which an artist
> finds him- or herself.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > ... non-expressive art ... would posit artworks that do not
> > communicate but ARE.  Does a banana communicate anything?
> >  If not, can it not be enjoyed for what it is, anyway?<<
>
> Well, once you go so far as to claim that things such as bananas or
> canyons or rivers and the like are art it seems to me that you're in
> calling-a-tail-a-leg territory.  How many legs does a dog have if you
> call a tail a leg? Four, because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it
> one.
>
Where did I claim a banana is art?  I was trying to show you that a thing
can be good for what it is.  There are artworks that communicate nothing but
give pleasure to more than their creator because of what they are.  Most
non-representational paintings, for instance.  What do they mean?  Who
cares.  It's how they look that counts.  Of course, one can read feelings
communicated into them.  It's also probably impossible to make something
that communicates absolutely nothing.  But one can come close enough.

--Bob G.




From William_Knott  Sat Sep 20 13:41:37 2003
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 13:41:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1692 - 14 msgs
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF7E@mail.emerson.edu>

Dear Paul Lake:

I admire your synthesizing intelligence, the breadth of your erudition, and the scope of your ambition. . .

Your essays are truly fascinating and, as I said before, irrefutable by me.  (I assume you're doing a book of them. . .)

But I wonder if they will change many minds.  

Are any members of the School of Noisiness going to convert after reading your essays?  (If they even bother to read them.) They're not going to change their views: they can't change in any case, because as Paul Valery observed, "Everything changes except the avantgarde."  

And let's assume you logically and scientifically prove your points.  Let's assume no one can gainsay you.  (I couldn't begin to try, even if I wanted to, which I don't.)   

But what about Milosz?  In his lecture, "The Lesson of Biology," he depicts the poet as a childish rebel, a "recalcitrant" fixated in the school-boy stage, stubbornly unwilling to accept the scientific logic of the adult world. . . .  Please forgive me, Paul Lake, if I point out Milosz's portrayal of the poet, and ask you 
to consider whether that Milosz-defined poet would commendate your logic and science. . . .

But can I ask you your thoughts on something else that interests me??

I appreciate your willingness, your indulgence to bother with my na?ve questions:

I'm not a New Formalist, and you are I think: at least you're published in their anthols, and you seem associated with them.

(Parenthetically, though I'm not a New Formalist, though I'm not in that group per se, and despite the many differences between us, I think that both you and I would be lumped together as members of the "School of Quietude," that condemnatory sobriquet coined by the School of Noisiness to characterize all those of us who don't subscribe to their endlessly boring avantgarde nonsense. . . .)

Anyway, my question is:  Billy Collins.  Because the New Formalists were supposed to be the ones who would reach a wider audience, weren't they: that was part of their (your) raison detre, wasn't it?   That was part of your manifesto.  You NFs were going to reach all those potential average readers, those common readers who had stopped reading poetry  due to the Gresham's Law hegemony of freeverse, you were going to be the ones to break through that embargo, break out of the poetry ghetto, achieve a popular readership. . . .  That was part of your promise when you began, wasn't it?   

So why is Collins is the one who's done what you all hoped to do?  (Not to mention Sharon Olds, whose books are in their 14th or 15th  or Nth  printing and flood the bookstore shelves everywhere.)   It can't be just the comic ingeniousness of Collins, can it, your Glynn is just as . . . just as. . . .

So what is it?   Why is Collins connecting with that greater audience the NFs aspired to reach but didn't (with the possible exception of Dana Gioia??but even he's not in the sales stratosphere of Collins and Olds). . . . 

I ask this not from any position superior to yours in terms of popularity (or merit, for that matter), my books all die with a first printing . . .

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the matter.

??Thanks from Bill Knott



 


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From William_Knott  Sat Sep 20 14:47:01 2003
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:47:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] taking your lumps and liking it (re Gabe Gudding)
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF7F@mail.emerson.edu>

Gabe, 
You object to me lumping all the Avants together. . . 
well aren't i simply responding in kind. . .?
they're lumping me into the School of Quietude. . .
i know you are but what am i. . . .
all those post-avants in the School of Noisiness, those ess-oh-ens. . .
they call me a SOQ, i call them a SON, and on it goes till Recess is over. . .
i know you are but what am i. . . 
all this name-calling is fun, you're elitist, i'm a reactionary, etc. . . but speaking of racist:
is Lucille Clifton a SOQ?  Rita Dove?  Audre Lorde?  Natasha Trethewey, Allison Joseph, and all the other contemporary African-American women poets who write poems which are accessible, which do not gird-guard their meanings in the cloak of opacity difficulty obscurity favored by the SONs: are these women all SOQs? . . . . are they SOQs and therefore beneath contempt?  I want one of those SONs to write a piece condemning Clifton Dove et al for the clarity of their "bourgeois discourse", for writing poems which are aimed at a democratic rather than an elitist audience. . . .
i know you are but what am i. . . .

??bill knott
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From wjbat  Sat Sep 20 15:07:42 2003
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:07:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <3F6C43C4.25255.A2917F@localhost>
Message-ID: <B5EFC6E3-EB9D-11D7-9AA5-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Saturday, September 20, 2003, at 12:10 PM, Marcus Bales wrote:
> I carefully posited "within roughly zones" in my initial question
> about whether it was possible to define a notion such as 'working
> class' and 'enjoys poetry' and 'poetry' well enough to talk about.
> Wendy denied it was possible.

Here's what I said, Marcus:
> Or perhaps we should accept that our observations are extremely 
> selective and have more to do with who we are as observers than with 
> any reliable generalization about a large and diverse group of people. 
>  It's safe to say that if you and Sam and I walked into any control 
> group, we'd come out with three very different reports of who was 
> there and what they had on their minds.

I'm not sure how you read that as any denial "that it was possible"-- 
unless, of course, you believe some of us aren't capable of the 
self-knowledge and humility required to acknowledge our limitations. ;)

Wendy

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu




From kellogg  Sat Sep 20 15:25:13 2003
From: kellogg (David Kellogg)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:25:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <3F6C43C4.25255.A2917F@localhost>
References: <3F6C3C2F.5477.84F1D2@localhost>
 <3F6C43C4.25255.A2917F@localhost>
Message-ID: <58980329.1064071512@async48-20.async.duke.edu>

--On Saturday, September 20, 2003 12:10 PM -0400 Marcus Bales 
<marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

>> Oh, bull.  A term like "working class" is not subject to universal
>> agreement for a lot of reasons: it is an abstraction, it is used by
>> different people to mean different things, and people who use it have
>> interests in sustaining their views.  Nothing to do at all with
>> whether communication is possible.<<
>
> I carefully posited "within roughly zones" in my initial question
> about whether it was possible to define a notion such as 'working
> class' and 'enjoys poetry' and 'poetry' well enough to talk about.
> Wendy denied it was possible. Well, if it's not possible to define
> one's terms well enough to communicate then it's not possible to
> communicate. Neither she, nor you, can have it both ways.

I suppose I should regret being pulled into a debate with someone who 
thinks the phrase ?within roughly zones? is a careful formulation.

Anyway, although I didn?t follow your debate with Wendy, I can say that I 
don?t know any poet, of any school of poetry, who has said that 
communication is impossible.  Could you point me to one statement by a 
contemporary poet that says this (as compared to a statement that you say 
_means_ this)?  Some different forms of understanding under some conditions 
may be relatively incommensurable, and all communication is only 
more-or-less successful (he said, revealing his colors as a relativist), 
but saying that is different from saying that communication is impossible.

Again, remember that this is from someone who didn?t follow your debate 
with Wendy.  But I?ll just put forward my own position, assuming you care, 
by examining the statement ?The working class enjoys poetry.?   Let?s 
suspend the question of whether such a statement makes any sense at all (I 
don?t think it does, since ?the working class,? as a name given to a 
collection of people with varying tastes, doesn?t ?enjoy? as an individual 
might).  It seems to me that the differences in definition (either ?within 
roughly zones,? to take your infelicitous phrasing, or without) are what 
make such a statement potentially interesting.  If we reach agreement about 
what ?the working class,? ?enjoys,? and ?poetry? mean, then the statement 
is more or less trivially true or untrue.  The statement might become 
conversationally interesting if we asked questions like ?what do you mean 
by ?working class,? ?enjoys,? and ?poetry???  For my part, I?m always 
hoping, as a reader of poetry, for my definitions of ?enjoy? and ?poetry? 
to be challenged.

>> The space where such disagreements happen may well be a site of
>> communication even if the disagreement remains.  (It may be a site of
>> something else, of course -- war, for example.)<<
>
> Sure -- I mentioned that, too:
>
>> If there can be no agreement about what is meant when things such
>> as "working class" or "enjoys poetry" or "poetry", even within
>> roughly zones, are said, because each observer experiences such a
>> different world that the experiences are incommunicable, then
>> communication gets reduced to brute levels, if there can be any at
>> all.
>
> So the question, then, is whether Wendy, and you, evidently, are
> willing to say that war and rape and torture and killing are all
> communications that you're willing to call poetry?

Are you high?  That?s not the question at all.  I was merely referring to 
the well-worn understanding in rhetoric of the difference between 
argumentation and violence, and of their mutual implication.  (For 
relatively recent investigations of this, see _The Body in Pain_ by Elaine 
Scarry and _The Rhetoric of Reason_ by James Crosswhite.)   In the 
rhetorical tradition, violence is a choice that is made when one side in a 
dispute decides not to communicate further.  Violence is a failure of 
communication, not an instance of it.  Not understanding this can have dire 
consequences.  Witness Bush & co.?s invasion of Iraq, which was meant, 
whatever the stated reasons (another failure of communication), to ?send a 
message? to the Muslim world.

> The poetry of rape; the poetry of torture -- the art of rape, the art
> of torture -- are these things you want to countenance as a
> reasonable extension of the notion of art?

I can't respond to this statement; all I can do is stare at it in 
slack-jawed amazement.

David




From jvcervantes  Sat Sep 20 15:23:05 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:23:05 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
References: <53FF6948-EB6E-11D7-9AA5-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> <002d01c37f96$ee4ab040$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <3F6CA91A.71FF96AB@earthlink.net>


TheOldMole wrote:
> 
> I think there's a difference between loving form and being a formalist.
> 
> 

Yes, yes, yes!  I love enchanted forms and formal introductions. Oh,
yes, yes, yes!

- Jim, thinking he's got it wrong somehow



From William_Knott  Sat Sep 20 16:19:38 2003
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:19:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] my errata
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF80@mail.emerson.edu>

Sorry, not "Glynn", I meant "Gwynn". . . .
my thoughts are faster than my fingers.

---bill knutt, knatt, knett


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From chris  Sun Sep 21 00:07:59 2003
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:07:59 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <019901c37ef0$4f9f5a00$1124fea9@j1c1k6>
References: <00f001c37e19$efa73220$bb13fea9@j1c1k6>
 <3F6AB526.7173.1C52B3@localhost> <019901c37ef0$4f9f5a00$1124fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3F6D241F.9060503@chrislott.org>

 >  Should I have stopped with Keats?  Or with light verse?

Do you feel this represents some kind of generally applicable 
"progression"? Only then does it really merit much discussion outside 
the surmise of the purely personal.

c




From chris  Sun Sep 21 00:10:35 2003
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:10:35 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <3F6C3226.2540.5DC086@localhost>
References: <d3.227050af.2c9d1eb1@aol.com> <3F6C3226.2540.5DC086@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F6D24BB.6020602@chrislott.org>

Marcus Bales wrote:

>>Because writing in free verse doesn't preclude loving formal verse?<<
> 
> 
> Sure it does: because the entire matrix within which "formal verse" 
> exists is antithetical to the very notion of "free verse". Free verse 
> deliberately set out to discard the adulterant of verse in order to 
> try to get poetry pure. If you write free verse you must, perforce, 
> reject all that formal verse stands for -- and if you don't, well, 
> then, on what grounds do you claim that your free verse is free, 
> verse, or any good within its own terms?

Well there you go. Wendy, Marcus refutes you thus.

c




From bobgrumman  Sun Sep 21 07:49:05 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:49:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <00f001c37e19$efa73220$bb13fea9@j1c1k6><3F6AB526.7173.1C52B3@localhost> <019901c37ef0$4f9f5a00$1124fea9@j1c1k6> <3F6D241F.9060503@chrislott.org>
Message-ID: <00e401c38036$5c9a20e0$0d76fea9@j1c1k6>

> >  Should I have stopped with Keats?  Or with light verse?
>
> Do you feel this represents some kind of generally applicable
> "progression"?

Not necessarily progression, but journey from what I call the knownstream to
other kinds of poetry.  It IS a progression from limited world to larger
world.

> Only then does it really merit much discussion
> outside the surmise of the purely personal.
>
> c

It illustrates what I take to be a common sense general concept which is: a
person needs time to come to terms with all the different poetries there
are.  Therefore, it's stupid to say that if a lot of people don't grasp some
form of poetry immediately, it's due to the form's being opaque rather than
to the non-graspers' being insufficiently informed.

As for what merits discussion, I'll leave that up to every individual.

--Bob G.


> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Sun Sep 21 10:15:50 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:15:50 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fall issue of The Salt River Review
Message-ID: <3F6DB295.B3C36FD7@earthlink.net>

Announcing the Fall, 2003 issue of The Salt River Review, wherein you
might encounter blurts, enchanted looms, but not the hum of the
indifference engine:

Poetry by Dara Wier, Wendy Taylor Carlisle, Mario Benedetti translated
by Carlos Reyes, M.T.C. Cronin, Jesse Lee Kercheval, Muriel Nelson,
Halvard Johnson, Marcus Bales, Derek Sheffield,  Jefferson Carter & Tad
Richards.  
Fiction by Claudia Smith, Edith Konecky, & Dot DeLuitzo.

The Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org/

Submissions for the winter issue read between October 1 - December 30,
2003.  Please read guidelines before submitting:  http://www.poetserv.org/guidelines.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes:  http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html



From kellogg  Sun Sep 21 13:27:19 2003
From: kellogg (David Kellogg)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:27:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <44512435.1064057119@async48-37.async.duke.edu>
References: <3F6AB526.7173.1C52B3@localhost>
 <3F6ADA30.18599.AD0271@localhost> <00d801c37ef7$04798300$0ef2fea9@j1c1k6>
 <44512435.1064057119@async48-37.async.duke.edu>
Message-ID: <138307876.1064150838@async48-37.async.duke.edu>

Pre-preliminary response to Paul:

In Paul Lake's "Enchanted Loom," Swift and Stern are "English" writers. 
Odd.  I wonder how careful the rest of the essay is.  To quote Joyce:

"swift to make errthors, stern to checkself" (Finnegans Wake 36)

and:

"your wildeshawshowe moves swiftly sterneward!"  (FW 256)

Best,
David



From gmguddi  Sun Sep 21 14:28:19 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:28:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] taking your lumps and liking it (re Gabe
  Gudding)
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF7F@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030920141624.02218130@mail.ilstu.edu>

Bill,

I do understand your frustration at being labelled and lumped -- and, 
frankly, "othered."

The categories, for me, are only useful when used Cohesively rather than 
Adhesively. That is to say, these are terms that should not delimit or 
restrict or separate one group from another, but should allow a given group 
to have a stronger sense of community purpose.  I've always loved it that 
O'Hara said, "If being 'avant-garde' means not being bored, then I'm 
avant-garde."  Unless a group labels Itself, such labels are useless except 
for the purposes of polemic: there's typically but one reason labels are 
given to another group and that's for polemical purposes. Like anything 
else, literary fights rely on othering. It's a useless game. Literary LIFE, 
on the other hand, relies on community and cohesion -- on that glorious 
sense of connectedness with our fellow readers/writers. Literary life, in 
this sense, is no different from ordinary life: decency, love, productivity 
-- it all relies on cooperation and community.

I don't know what "they" you're referring to when you say they lumped you 
in with the SOQ. I think your work cd be construed in a number of ways, as 
SOQ or SON, as post-avant. The point I tried to make with my previous post, 
and this one, is that these labels do more harm than good. Ignore the 
labels without ignoring the writers who do the labeling -- that's always 
the trick for me, and is very very tough. For instance, I find Joan 
Houlihan profoundly ignorant and her poetry really really bad. But I will 
try to continue to read her and retain the capacity to be surprised by her. 
But fundamentally, I htink, it's important for us that we don't, most of 
all, allow the storm of labels to stand as an excuse for bad history.

I've seen more bad history on this list in the past few months than I've 
seen in years. Bravo to David Kellogg for doing what I and a number of 
others just don't have the energy or time to do.

Gabe


http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/




From chris  Sun Sep 21 14:38:43 2003
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:38:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <00e401c38036$5c9a20e0$0d76fea9@j1c1k6>
References: <00f001c37e19$efa73220$bb13fea9@j1c1k6>
 <3F6AB526.7173.1C52B3@localhost> <019901c37ef0$4f9f5a00$1124fea9@j1c1k6>
 <3F6D241F.9060503@chrislott.org> <00e401c38036$5c9a20e0$0d76fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3F6DF033.7010704@chrislott.org>

Bob Grumman wrote:
>>> Should I have stopped with Keats?  Or with light verse?
>>
>>Do you feel this represents some kind of generally applicable
>>"progression"?
> 
> 
> Not necessarily progression, but journey from what I call the knownstream to
> other kinds of poetry.  It IS a progression from limited world to larger
> world.

The implication of the scale of value is what I am after. What about 
someone who starts out with an introduction to post-avant poetry and 
then moves to the mainstream and finds that more fulfilling? And believe 
me, it happens. A lot.

c
-- 
Chris Lott (chris at chrislott.org)
http://www.chrislott.org/

"May my silences become more accurate" --Theodore Roethke




From marcus  Sun Sep 21 16:55:15 2003
From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:55:15 GMT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
Message-ID: <200309212034.h8LKY9ST016122@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

> ... I can say that I 
> don?t know any poet, of any school of poetry, who has said that 
> communication is impossible.  Could you point me to one statement by a 
> contemporary poet that says this (as compared to a statement that you say 
> _means_ this)?<<

No -- I am asserting polemically that Wendy's statement, and your defense of 
it, _means_ that your fundamental notion about language. and therefore about 
poetry, is that there can be no communication, so therefore it doesn't matter 
what kind of blurt you put on the page or utter into the air, because you have 
no confidence that it can possibly mean anything in the first place. 

> Some different forms of understanding under some conditions 
> may be relatively incommensurable, and all communication is only 
> more-or-less successful (he said, revealing his colors as a relativist), 
> but saying that is different from saying that communication is impossible.<<

I agree with this. But Wendy's utterance went beyond that: she asserted, it 
seems to me, that Sam Gwynn, Wendy Battin, and Marcus Bales could not agree on 
what had happened in a room in which the three of them had had a discussion 
with people who were in "the working class". There's not that much difference 
between those opinion-holders, when you come right down to it, and the 
assertion that that range has nothing in common looks to me like an assertion 
that there can be nothing in common among any people.
 
> ... Let?s 
> suspend the question of whether such a statement makes any sense at all (I 
> don?t think it does, since ?the working class,? as a name given to a 
> collection of people with varying tastes, doesn?t ?enjoy? as an individual 
> might).<<

This seems to take up a different question entirely. The issue at hand was 
whether we can make generalizations about the working class with regard to the 
kinds of poetry, free verse or formal verse, to use the terms we're using here, 
they enjoy. The issue was not whether the working class enjoys poetry.

> It seems to me that the differences in definition (either ?within 
> roughly zones,? to take your infelicitous phrasing, or without)<<

Take it up with Frost, who I was quoting.

>... I was merely referring to 
> the well-worn understanding in rhetoric of the difference between 
> argumentation and violence, and of their mutual implication. ... In the 
> rhetorical tradition, violence is a choice that is made when one side in a 
> dispute decides not to communicate further.  Violence is a failure of 
> communication, not an instance of it. <

That's exactly the opposite of what you said, though. I'm willing to believe 
that you meant this, but you certainly didn't say this.






From kellogg  Sun Sep 21 18:36:13 2003
From: kellogg (David Kellogg)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:36:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <200309212034.h8LKY9ST016122@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200309212034.h8LKY9ST016122@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <156842998.1064169373@async48-20.async.duke.edu>

This is getting a little absurd, but I'll give it one more try.  Try to 
stay with me, Marcus.  I?ve gotten several messages referring to the ?brick 
wall? effect of having a dispute with you, and I?m really starting to 
experience that.  But I?m going to assume you want to understand where I?m 
coming from rather than simply piss from your high-and-mighty perch.

I wrote:

>> ... I can say that I
>> don?t know any poet, of any school of poetry, who has said that
>> communication is impossible.  Could you point me to one statement by a
>> contemporary poet that says this (as compared to a statement that you
>> say  _means_ this)?<<

To which you responded:

> No --

--at which point I snicker: thought so.  In any case, you go on:

> I am asserting polemically that Wendy's statement, and your defense
> of  it, _means_ that your fundamental notion about language. and
> therefore about  poetry, is that there can be no communication, so
> therefore it doesn't matter  what kind of blurt you put on the page or
> utter into the air, because you have  no confidence that it can possibly
> mean anything in the first place.

I was actually not defending Wendy's statement, as I pointed out twice in 
my post (though you cut those parts out).  Anyway, Wendy has now provided 
her original statement in a response to you.  What Wendy said was this: "Or 
perhaps we should accept that our observations are extremely  selective and 
have more to do with who we are as observers than with  any reliable 
generalization about a large and diverse group of people.  It's safe to say 
that if you and Sam and I walked into any control group, we'd come out with 
three very different reports of who was there and what they had on their 
minds."  I frankly deny that it means anything remotely like what you say 
it means, though you're free to hallucinate as you wish.

Anyway, in the next bit you quote, I wrote:

>> Some different forms of understanding under some conditions
>> may be relatively incommensurable, and all communication is only
>> more-or-less successful (he said, revealing his colors as a relativist),
>> but saying that is different from saying that communication is
>> impossible.<<

To which you respond:

> I agree with this. But Wendy's utterance went beyond that: she asserted,
> it  seems to me, that Sam Gwynn, Wendy Battin, and Marcus Bales could not
> agree on  what had happened in a room in which the three of them had had
> a discussion  with people who were in "the working class". There's not
> that much difference  between those opinion-holders, when you come right
> down to it, and the  assertion that that range has nothing in common
> looks to me like an assertion  that there can be nothing in common among
> any people.

The key here is ?it seems to me? ? that is, to you.  Again, you?re 
projecting your own interpretation beyond anything that Wendy said.  What 
she wrote was that the three of you would ?come out [of any large & diverse 
control group ? I assume as observers] with three very different reports of 
who was there and what they had on their minds.?  This seems to me entirely 
reasonable and without any of the solipsistic free-fall that you seem to 
imagine she is representing.  It?s an interesting little thought 
experiment.  I like to imagine how it might work out in practice.  Let me 
ask: suppose you and Sam and Wendy _did_, in reality, observe a 
working-class control group, watch them talk about the poetry they enjoyed, 
and came out with radically different reports.  Would you then throw your 
clipboard into the air, wave your hands, and say something along the lines 
of ?Aye, me!  Communication is impossible!? ?  No?  Then why would Wendy 
imagining this outcome lead you to believe she thinks it is impossible?

I would also like to point out that Wendy?s post did not suggest that 
either you or the hypothetical control group had ?nothing in common.?  To 
my knowledge, that?s your language, not hers.

Anyway, I then go on:

>> ... Let?s
>> suspend the question of whether such a statement makes any sense at all
>> (I  don?t think it does, since ?the working class,? as a name given to a
>> collection of people with varying tastes, doesn?t ?enjoy? as an
>> individual  might).<<

To which you respond:

> This seems to take up a different question entirely. The issue at hand
> was  whether we can make generalizations about the working class with
> regard to the  kinds of poetry, free verse or formal verse, to use the
> terms we're using here,  they enjoy. The issue was not whether the
> working class enjoys poetry.

If that?s the question, then I think the answer is no, we (at least I) 
can?t make such generalizations about what kinds of poetry the working 
class enjoys.  And even less so if we question the definitions of terms, as 
I mentioned in my earlier post.  Pierre Bourdieu tried to do that with 
French society (see his _Distinction_), and it was very difficult even 
though French society is arguably (at least when he wrote that book) less 
diverse and more class-conscious than American society.

In any event, I then took a cheap shot:

>> It seems to me that the differences in definition (either ?within
>> roughly zones,? to take your infelicitous phrasing, or without)<<

And you responded:

> Take it up with Frost, who I was quoting.

Really?  Where?  Just curious.  ?Within roughly zones? sounds too ugly for 
Frost to my ear, but I?d love to know the source.

Anyway, enough about that.  I then wrote:

>> ... I was merely referring to
>> the well-worn understanding in rhetoric of the difference between
>> argumentation and violence, and of their mutual implication. ... In the
>> rhetorical tradition, violence is a choice that is made when one side in
>> a  dispute decides not to communicate further.  Violence is a failure of
>> communication, not an instance of it. <

To which you responded:

> That's exactly the opposite of what you said, though. I'm willing to
> believe  that you meant this, but you certainly didn't say this.

To which I retort:  Really?  If that?s the case, then why did you excise my 
original statement?  It read:

>> The space where such disagreements happen may well be a
>> site of communication even if the disagreement remains.
>> (It may be a site of something else, of course -- war, for example.)

Note here that war is ?something else? other than communication, though 
violence and communication may both take place in ?the space where . . . 
disagreements happen.?

Your move, Marcus.

Best,
David




From bobgrumman  Sun Sep 21 21:00:52 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:00:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <00f001c37e19$efa73220$bb13fea9@j1c1k6><3F6AB526.7173.1C52B3@localhost> <019901c37ef0$4f9f5a00$1124fea9@j1c1k6><3F6D241F.9060503@chrislott.org> <00e401c38036$5c9a20e0$0d76fea9@j1c1k6> <3F6DF033.7010704@chrislott.org>
Message-ID: <013501c380a4$f8a59960$24abfea9@j1c1k6>

> Bob Grumman wrote:
> >>> Should I have stopped with Keats?  Or with light verse?
> >>
> >>Do you feel this represents some kind of generally applicable
> >>"progression"?
> >
> >
> > Not necessarily progression, but journey from what I call the
knownstream to
> > other kinds of poetry.  It IS a progression from limited world to larger
> > world.
>
> The implication of the scale of value is what I am after. What about
> someone who starts out with an introduction to post-avant poetry

Not sure what you mean.  He almost could not start out with what I call
burstnorm poetry unless one of his parents composed it since it's not taught
in the schools or widely published--or he goes to SUNY, Buffalo.


> and
> then moves to the mainstream and finds that more fulfilling? And believe
> me, it happens. A lot.
>
> c
> --
> Chris Lott (chris at chrislott.org)

That would be another example of starting with a small portion of poetry and
going on to another.  I should think starting with mainstream poetry would
be most likely since that's what's taught before college.  But I can see a
person's being exposed to a lot of poetry in college courses that he doesn't
like, and being deflected, happily, into the poetry of Billy Collins or
someone.

It usually goes from simple to complex, very accessible to less accessible
to almost inaccessible.  In all the arts.

--Bob G.





From JforJames  Sun Sep 21 21:01:44 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:01:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
Message-ID: <145.195c4f8d.2c9fa3f8@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/20/03 12:03:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> It takes real gumption to wave away in one grand gesture all the notable
>  poets of the past century who were switch-hitters, writing well both in
>  meter and free verse--from Eliot and Pound down through James Wright, 
Sylvia
>  Plath, Adrienne Rich, and Dana Gioia.  Not to  mention the testimony of all
>  the readers (Wendy Battin and myself, to name two at random) who just don't
>  see why one *can't* love both forms, just as one can love both Rembrandt 
and
>  Richard Diebenkorn.

David, since you bring up art & poetry in the same post, let me relay
a little story. This week I met Frederick Turner. He was visiting Trinity
College here in Hartford and attended a panel discussion I was at.
The subject was "Lyrical Landscape" and the two featured panelists
were the artists Lois Dodd and Paul Resika, both of whom had work
in the accompanying exhibit. Anyway, I got to meet Fred before the panel
and had a brief exchange of small talk. (I wanted to say something about 
his attack against Hamill's "Poets Against the War" effort, but I thought 
the time wasn't right.) At one point the audience was invited to ask 
questions of the panel. Most of the first few questions were easy pop-ups. 
But Fred had something more provocative in mind (to his credit). He
introduced his question with a rather long-winded introduction of his
progress as an artist, but finally got around to the gist to his question: 
He'd felt that Modernism (not mention to Post-Mo) had betrayed him as 
an artist, and wasn't that true, too, of the  panelists, as painters who 
had not completely forsaken representation, didn't they feel betrayed?
Resika spoke first. He said he kept Pound's Cantos nearby at all times.
And, although he doesn't always understand Pound, he's always felt,
reading Pound, that he was in the presence of great poetry. Dodd said
she was very influenced by Abstract Expression, and couldn't see her
own work (which is not terribly abstract) having been what it is, without 
that movement having come before her.
Turner responded (rough quote) that Pound's Modernist poetry & poetics 
was directly related to his Fascist tendencies, "you can't separate the two"
(exact quote). Resika, knowing art too well, said, "Have you ever seen 
the kind of art the Nazi's supported?" It's neo-classical kitsch."  
(paraphrase)
Turner's agenda was showing through...and he was called on it.
My relating this anecdote is not meant as a slap to New Formalism, 
which by & large I consider a worthwhile turn of events, but I offer 
it only as a story about how blind some can be to other means & ends.
Finnegan  



From chryss  Mon Sep 22 02:54:14 2003
From: chryss (Chryss Yost)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:54:14 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for Jeffrey Dye
Message-ID: <BB93EAA6.F6F4%chryss@silcom.com>

Does anyone have contact info for Jeffrey Dye?
I believe he is in the SF Bay Area, he has published in the Threepenny
Review...
Anyone? Anyone?
Thanks,
C.




From cstroffo  Sun Sep 21 20:57:28 2003
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 00:57:28 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for Jeffrey Dye
Message-ID: <200309220744.h8M7iBhH269934@pimout2-ext.prodigy.net>

Do you mean Geoffrey Dyer...
he lives in the bay area...
has a new book out...
i don't know if he was in threepenny review...



----------
>From: Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Looking for Jeffrey Dye
>Date: Mon, Sep 22, 2003, 6:54 AM
>

> Does anyone have contact info for Jeffrey Dye?
> I believe he is in the SF Bay Area, he has published in the Threepenny
> Review...
> Anyone? Anyone?
> Thanks,
> C.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ron.silliman  Mon Sep 22 07:14:08 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:14:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog -- 60,000 visitors
Message-ID: <000001c380fa$a93fdce0$6972ed41@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

Jacob's fallacy - 
Thinking small about the prose poem

Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

Postmodern in Bali

In the dark:
Waiting for Izzy

Stacy Szymaszek -
Woodland Pattern goes to sea

Audience vs. Community

The Houlihan fiasco

Artists & others bedeviled by genre  -- 
Salam Pax: journalist or architect
Viggo Mortensen: actor, poet, painter
Paul Pena & the blues in Tuva
& a context for Stan Rice, painter

Thomas Meyer's Coromandel

"Pieces of the past"
-- a poem by Jack Spicer

H.D., Noveliste

-isms:
community or marketing?

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

60,000 visitors & growing!







From marcus  Mon Sep 22 07:44:16 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:44:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <BB91E453.457E%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <3F6C3226.2540.5DC086@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F6EA850.2455.9D0C0@localhost>

> ... the entire matrix within which "formal verse"
> > exists is antithetical to the very notion of "free verse". Free
> > verse deliberately set out to discard the adulterant of verse in
> > order to try to get poetry pure. If you write free verse you must,
> > perforce, reject all that formal verse stands for -- and if you
> > don't, well, then, on what grounds do you claim that your free verse
> > is free, verse, or any good within its own terms?

> It takes real gumption to wave away in one grand gesture all the
> notable poets of the past century who were switch-hitters, writing
> well both in meter and free verse--from Eliot and Pound down through
> James Wright, Sylvia Plath, Adrienne Rich, and Dana Gioia.<<

Here's another example of the bankruptcy of the intellectual accounts 
which free verse's defenders try to draw on:  if it were the case 
that an appeal to authority were valid in this regard, then on what 
possible grounds did Pound, Ford, Eliot, and Lowell argue against 
3000 years of the metrical composition called "verse" in the western 
tradition? If an appeal to authority is to be made here, it is one to 
the larger tradition that the free versers traduce.








From marcus  Mon Sep 22 07:51:41 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:51:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <B5EFC6E3-EB9D-11D7-9AA5-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
References: <3F6C43C4.25255.A2917F@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F6EAA0D.12021.109C2B@localhost>

> Here's what I said, Marcus:
> > Or perhaps we should accept that our observations are extremely
> > selective and have more to do with who we are as observers than with
> > any reliable generalization about a large and diverse group of
> > people. 
> >  It's safe to say that if you and Sam and I walked into any control 
> > group, we'd come out with three very different reports of who was
> > there and what they had on their minds.
> 
> I'm not sure how you read that as any denial "that it was possible"--
> unless, of course, you believe some of us aren't capable of the
> self-knowledge and humility required to acknowledge our limitations.

You're saying this in order to make a claim that your experience with 
poetry and people in what you call the working class, and my 
experience with poetry and people in what I call the working class, 
are so different that you are denying that it is possible for you and 
me to do as I suggested: refine our notions of what the working class 
is so that we can agree at least on that, and then examine our 
experiences of poetry within that agreed-on class, if we can. Your 
posts and replies have been attempts to deny that it is possible for 
you and me to agree on what we mean when we say "working class". You 
are denying that it is possible to communicate -- and a very good job 
you're doing, too.







From marcus  Mon Sep 22 08:19:33 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:19:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <156842998.1064169373@async48-20.async.duke.edu>
References: <200309212034.h8LKY9ST016122@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3F6EB095.3082.2A1ECF@localhost>

> ... I frankly deny that [Wendy's post]
> means anything remotely like what you say it means ... 

As you repeatedly said, you are unfamiliar with the context of the 
discussion, and you're taking Wendy's quote out of that context. 
Wendy is defending the position that it is impossible for she and I 
to agree on a definition of "the working class" that will allow us to 
talk about whether our individual experiences with poetry and the 
working class differ significantly or at all.

> The key here is ?it seems to me? ? that is, to you.  Again, you?re
> projecting your own interpretation beyond anything that Wendy said. <<

You're right, the key here is "it seems to me", indeed. But since you 
are by your own admission not au courant with the context of the 
discussion, your willingness to leap in and explicate Wendy's or my 
views seems a little premature. Wendy is defending the proposition 
that it is not possible for she and I to agree on a definition of 
"the working class" that will explain in any way our different 
perceptions of reading poetry with, to, or in the working class 
entails.

> What she wrote was that the three of you would ?come out [of any large
> & diverse control group ? I assume as observers] with three very
> different reports of who was there and what they had on their minds.? 
> This seems to me entirely reasonable and without any of the
> solipsistic free-fall that you seem to imagine she is representing.<<

She is presenting this notion in the defense of her assertion that it 
is impossible adequately to define "the working class" well enough so 
that her and my and Sam's experiences of poetry and the working class 
are explicable. Her goal in making the statement you quote is to 
foreclose the possibility of discussion about whether it is possible 
to communicate by refining one's definitions in search of enough 
agreement to have a discussion about the similarities and differences 
of one's perceptions.

> If that?s the question ["...whether we can make generalizations
> about the working class with regard to the  kinds of poetry, free
> verse or formal verse ... they enjoy. The issue was not whether the
> working class enjoys poetry."], then I think the answer is no, we
> (at least I) can?t make such generalizations about what kinds of
>  poetry the working class enjoys.<<

Well, Wendy began this discussion by asserting that she could tell 
what kind of poetry the working class enjoys. I responded that my 
experience disagreed with hers and I suggested that we talk about 
what we held constituted "the working class" to see if that would 
explain the differences in our perceptions. Sam joined in to say that 
his perceptions were also different from Wendy's. You are now saying 
that that generalization can't be made, which seems to be in support 
of Wendy's position that it's not possible to come to a definition of 
what the working class is.

> ... ?Within roughly zones? sounds too ugly
> for Frost to my ear, but I?d love to know the source.<<

A poem, titled "There Are Roughly Zones". 

> >> The space where such disagreements happen may well be a
> >> site of communication even if the disagreement remains.
> >> (It may be a site of something else, of course -- war, for
> >> example.)
> Note here that war is ?something else? other than communication,
> though violence and communication may both take place in ?the space
> where . . . disagreements happen.?

I'm unclear about where you imagine that "space" is where violence 
and communication take place while preserving a distinction between 
violence and communication; it sounds pretty hypothetical to me, if 
it can be said to "exist" at all. It seems to me that this is, at 
best, a dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin distinction. Where _is_ that 
space?

I hold that violence is indeed communication: communication that is 
crude, brutal, and ineffective at getting nuance across. One does not 
discuss definitions of terms when the "space where ... disagreements 
happen" has been occupied by violence, but one is in no doubt about 
the larger message that violence sends. That message may be the wrong 
one or the right one, but though it is not and cannot be a nuanced 
one, it is a message clear enough.










From marcus  Mon Sep 22 08:49:34 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:49:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <138307876.1064150838@async48-37.async.duke.edu>
References: <44512435.1064057119@async48-37.async.duke.edu>
Message-ID: <3F6EB79E.14649.459AAB@localhost>

> In Paul Lake's "Enchanted Loom," Swift and Stern are "English"
> writers. Odd.  I wonder how careful the rest of the essay is. ...<<

Political correctness rides again.  I was once accused of racism for 
referring to someone's heritage and language being Irish-English. 
Political correctness is a house of mirrors designed to be able to 
find an angle from which to criticize trivialities in the name of 
signficances (for racism and sexism and the like are terrible things 
that ought to be expunged if they can be from each individual's 
beliefs -- but by that individual, and for individual moral reasons) 
and this kind of crappily trivial objection ought not be used to cast 
this sort of specious doubt on "the rest" of an essay, lest 
reasonable readers suspect that that, like Wendy's comment about the 
typos, is the very best that one can do to disagree with the 
substance of the matter.







From anny.ballardini  Mon Sep 22 09:41:05 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:41:05 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Laurie Anderson and Amelia Earhart...
Message-ID: <002101c3810f$2c125f80$6d737450@anny>

I was called to translate Laurie Anderson who was in town, if you wish, here is the story:

http://www.fieralingue.it/poetcorner/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=285

And I put online my review of Harriet Zinnes last collection of poems: Drawing On The Wall, you can find it here:

http://www.fieralingue.it/poetcorner/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=280

and finally, for those who can read Italian, a note for Erminia Passannanti's last book: Mistici:

http://www.fieralingue.it/poetcorner/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=271

Take care, anny
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From kellogg  Mon Sep 22 09:56:37 2003
From: kellogg (David Kellogg)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:56:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <44512435.1064057119@async48-37.async.duke.edu> <3F6EB79E.14649.459AAB@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F6EFF95.5050409@duke.edu>

Marcus Bales wrote:

>>In Paul Lake's "Enchanted Loom," Swift and Stern are "English"
>>writers. Odd.  I wonder how careful the rest of the essay is. ...<<
>>
>
>Political correctness rides again.  I was once accused of racism for 
>referring to someone's heritage and language being Irish-English. 
>Political correctness is a house of mirrors designed to be able to 
>find an angle from which to criticize trivialities in the name of 
>signficances (for racism and sexism and the like are terrible things 
>that ought to be expunged if they can be from each individual's 
>beliefs -- but by that individual, and for individual moral reasons) 
>and this kind of crappily trivial objection ought not be used to cast 
>this sort of specious doubt on "the rest" of an essay, lest 
>reasonable readers suspect that that, like Wendy's comment about the 
>typos, is the very best that one can do to disagree with the 
>substance of the matter.
>
I suppose Joyce was being "politically correct" to insist on the Irishness of Sterne and Swift.  You're an interesting character, Marcus: you have accused Wendy of taking a quote out of context when you routinely snip others' posts to your advantage.  

Anyway, as for the charge that that's the best I can do: In fact, I think "The Enchanted Loom" is by far the weakest of Paul's sometimes interesting takes on science and poetry, very wrong in its reading of Derrida, rather slapdash in its citation of contemporary cognitive science, and completely beside the point on the issue of poetry.  I'll have more to say on this later, but I'm off to teach now.  

David Kellogg
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University 
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637
http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg


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From kellogg  Mon Sep 22 10:10:52 2003
From: kellogg (David Kellogg)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:10:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <200309212034.h8LKY9ST016122@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <3F6EB095.3082.2A1ECF@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F6F02EC.5070803@duke.edu>

Hey Marcus,

Provide a context that is not a Marcus-generated summary, then. You're 
the one eviscerating the context.

Marcus Bales wrote:

>>... I frankly deny that [Wendy's post]
>>means anything remotely like what you say it means ... 
>>
>
>As you repeatedly said, you are unfamiliar with the context of the 
>discussion, and you're taking Wendy's quote out of that context. 
>Wendy is defending the position that it is impossible for she and I 
>to agree on a definition of "the working class" that will allow us to 
>talk about whether our individual experiences with poetry and the 
>working class differ significantly or at all.
>
>>The key here is "it seems to me" ? that is, to you.  Again, you're
>>projecting your own interpretation beyond anything that Wendy said. <<
>>
>
>You're right, the key here is "it seems to me", indeed. But since you 
>are by your own admission not au courant with the context of the 
>discussion, your willingness to leap in and explicate Wendy's or my 
>views seems a little premature. Wendy is defending the proposition 
>that it is not possible for she and I to agree on a definition of 
>"the working class" that will explain in any way our different 
>perceptions of reading poetry with, to, or in the working class 
>entails.
>
>>What she wrote was that the three of you would "come out [of any large
>>& diverse control group ? I assume as observers] with three very
>>different reports of who was there and what they had on their minds." 
>>This seems to me entirely reasonable and without any of the
>>solipsistic free-fall that you seem to imagine she is representing.<<
>>
>
>She is presenting this notion in the defense of her assertion that it 
>is impossible adequately to define "the working class" well enough so 
>that her and my and Sam's experiences of poetry and the working class 
>are explicable. Her goal in making the statement you quote is to 
>foreclose the possibility of discussion about whether it is possible 
>to communicate by refining one's definitions in search of enough 
>agreement to have a discussion about the similarities and differences 
>of one's perceptions.
>
Really? Where does she state this goal? Or are you reading her mind?

>>If that's the question ["...whether we can make generalizations
>>about the working class with regard to the  kinds of poetry, free
>>verse or formal verse ... they enjoy. The issue was not whether the
>>working class enjoys poetry."], then I think the answer is no, we
>>(at least I) can't make such generalizations about what kinds of
>> poetry the working class enjoys.<<
>>
>
>Well, Wendy began this discussion by asserting that she could tell 
>what kind of poetry the working class enjoys. I responded that my 
>experience disagreed with hers and I suggested that we talk about 
>what we held constituted "the working class" to see if that would 
>explain the differences in our perceptions. Sam joined in to say that 
>his perceptions were also different from Wendy's. You are now saying 
>that that generalization can't be made, which seems to be in support 
>of Wendy's position that it's not possible to come to a definition of 
>what the working class is.
>
That's right. I had already said that, in my first post on this thread.

>>. "Within roughly zones" sounds too ugly
>>for Frost to my ear, but I'd love to know the source.<<
>>
>
>A poem, titled "There Are Roughly Zones". 
>

Thanks.

>>>>The space where such disagreements happen may well be a
>>>>site of communication even if the disagreement remains.
>>>>(It may be a site of something else, of course -- war, for
>>>>example.)
>>>>
>>Note here that war is "something else" other than communication,
>>though violence and communication may both take place in "the space
>>where . . . disagreements happen."
>>
>
>I'm unclear about where you imagine that "space" is where violence 
>and communication take place while preserving a distinction between 
>violence and communication; it sounds pretty hypothetical to me, if 
>it can be said to "exist" at all. It seems to me that this is, at 
>best, a dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin distinction. Where _is_ that 
>space?
>
Two men disagree: they have an argument (particpate in rhetoric). 
Without moving from that space, one of the men lets loose a haymaker at 
the other. Same space, different activities. In the rhetorical 
tradition, violence and rhetoric tend not to happen in the same space 
_at the same time_, although sometimes there are struggles over how to 
define it. Another example: Baghdad was some months ago the site of 
argument (rhetoric). The United States made it a site of violence. Now, 
with the American occupation, we are trying to make it a site of 
rhetoric again (assisted, as always with state power, by the threat of 
violence). Let me point out that this is not a recent, postmodern, 
politically correct analysis of the situation but one that is rooted in 
classical rhetoric.

>I hold that violence is indeed communication: communication that is 
>crude, brutal, and ineffective at getting nuance across. One does not 
>discuss definitions of terms when the "space where ... disagreements 
>happen" has been occupied by violence, but one is in no doubt about 
>the larger message that violence sends. That message may be the wrong 
>one or the right one, but though it is not and cannot be a nuanced 
>one, it is a message clear enough.
>
Perhaps I was too loose with my terms. I should have restricted 
"communication" to "rhetoric."

David Kellogg
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University 
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637
http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg






From DICK  Mon Sep 22 10:25:14 2003
From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 03 10:25:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt
Message-ID: <200309221425.h8MEPG7h223738@northrelay02.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:51:06 -0400 *************
Marcus' confident statement of what free versers' think,
and his complete demolition of those thoughts, remind me
of when I played both sides of the chessboard.  The attack
always won.

I did realize that wasn't chess, tho'.
Richard



From kellogg  Mon Sep 22 10:57:28 2003
From: kellogg (David Kellogg)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:57:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A qualified claim that communication is impossible
Message-ID: <3F6F0DD8.8000609@duke.edu>

Though I'm hopeful for the fate of communciation more generally, 
I have decided that communication with Marcus is impossible.  

Anyway, Marcus, I bow out.  Give up.  Submit.  Uncle.  Whatever.  

No wonder I post to the list so rarely. . . 

Best to all,
David

David Kellogg
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University 
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637
http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg





From Rsgwynn1  Mon Sep 22 10:54:17 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:54:17 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] my errata
Message-ID: <125.25cb14b7.2ca06719@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/20/2003 3:20:20 PM Central Daylight Time, 
William_Knott at emerson.edu writes: 
> Sorry, not "Glynn", I meant "Gwynn". . . .
> my thoughts are faster than my fingers.
> 
> ---bill knutt, knatt, knett
> 
I may have erased the message this refers to.  What was it?
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From paul.lake  Mon Sep 22 10:50:06 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:50:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <006901c37ef4$854334c0$0ef2fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <BB94764E.54E4%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/19/03 4:25 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:

>> I spend about equal time among formalists and free-versers, and
>> while formalists spend quite a lot of breath and energy defending
>> their own taste and attacking free versers', the latter barely
>> mention formalism, beyond to recognize its existence if the subject
>> should arise.  There's none of the zeal for their own style
>> and elaborate disparagements or "scientific" refutations of formal
>> verse.
>> 
>> Why is that, I wonder?
>> Richard
> 
> I think a significant part of the reason for this is that conventional
> free-versers are kings of the hill and a king of any hill tends to ignore
> rivals--until they are three-quarters of the way up the hill.  Amusingly, in
> the poetry avant garde, it's the language poets who are the kings of the
> hill, and they rarely heap scorn on other avant garde poets, although the
> latter heap scorn on them all the time.
> 
> In the larger world, where language poets are not hill-kings, they spend a
> lot of time deriding free-versers.  Just as formalists do.
> 
> As a complete outsider, I find free-versers starting to inveigh against
> language poets more than they do against formalists.  This, in my opinion,
> is in large part because language poetry is starting to threaten their
> status.  I don't think free-versers feel threatened by formalists because
> they have already defeated them.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
I think Bob's right.

Paul

---
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From paul.lake  Mon Sep 22 10:52:16 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:52:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <014301c37ef9$7e6af0c0$0ef2fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <BB9476D0.54E5%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/19/03 5:00 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:

>> P. S. My own work doesn't actually disparage free verse; it's more nuanced
>> than that. See "Disorderly Orders" at CPR for my take on "free verse," a
>> term I find misleading.
> 
> I tried to but can't afford $6 a month to be allowed to.  Any cheap way to
> read it?  I'm especially interested in why you find the term, "free verse,"
> misleading.  I do, too, but for different reasons than you do, I'm pretty
> sure.  (I hope your reasons don't include the fact that free verse isn't
> "verse.")  I call conventional free verse "plaintext verse," to distinguish
> it from later forms of free verse such as visual poetry.  For me, "verse,"
> is a synonym for "poetry."
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
Bob, the essay appeared originally in Southern Review. If you back channel
me with your address, I'll mail you a copy.

Paul

---
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From wjbat  Mon Sep 22 11:07:57 2003
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:07:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A qualified claim that communication is impossible
In-Reply-To: <3F6F0DD8.8000609@duke.edu>
Message-ID: <8C9FDA55-ED0E-11D7-B344-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 10:57 AM, David Kellogg wrote:
> Though I'm hopeful for the fate of communciation more generally, I 
> have decided that communication with Marcus is impossible.
> Anyway, Marcus, I bow out.  Give up.  Submit.  Uncle.  Whatever.
> No wonder I post to the list so rarely. . .

You beat me to it, David.  I was about to say that I've never thought 
communication impossible, but in Marcus's case I'm willing to make an 
exception.
I bow out too.

Wendy

Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu
Contemporary American Poetry Archive  http://capa.conncoll.edu




From GrahamD  Mon Sep 22 11:14:47 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:14:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  blurt?
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A080@mail.ripon.edu>

> > It takes real gumption to wave away in one grand gesture all the
> > notable poets of the past century who were switch-hitters, writing
> > well both in meter and free verse--from Eliot and Pound down through
> > James Wright, Sylvia Plath, Adrienne Rich, and Dana Gioia.<<
> 
	>>>>>>Here's another example of the bankruptcy of the intellectual
accounts 
> which free verse's defenders try to draw on:  if it were the case 
> that an appeal to authority were valid in this regard, then on what 
> possible grounds did Pound, Ford, Eliot, and Lowell argue against 
> 3000 years of the metrical composition called "verse" in the western 
> tradition?  If an appeal to authority is to be made here, it is one to 
the larger tradition that the free versers traduce.



I wasn't appealing to authority, Marcus, but to the *poems* themselves as
written by Pound, Eliot, et al., and to countless readers who love them even
while also loving Shakespeare and Yeats.  (This despite your claim that they
just can't do so without intellectual bankruptcy.  Uh huh.)

Just trying to point out that there's a whole tradition here--critical &
creative, and hardly the monolith that phrases like "the free versers" would
imply--which you aren't actually arguing against but simply dismissing with
a grand wave of your hand. . .     ah, never mind.  

Good luck with your next windmill, Senor Quixote.  I'm headed to the bar to
see if Wendy Battin & David Kellogg want to tip a few.

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================





From tadrichards  Mon Sep 22 11:15:59 2003
From: tadrichards (tadrichards at prodigy.net)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:15:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] my errata
Message-ID: <184670-220039122151559705@M2W038.mail2web.com>


Original Message:
-----------------
From:  Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:54:17 EDT
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] my errata


In a message dated 9/20/2003 3:20:20 PM Central Daylight Time, 
William_Knott at emerson.edu writes: 
> Sorry, not "Glynn", I meant "Gwynn". . . .
> my thoughts are faster than my fingers.
> 
> ---bill knutt, knatt, knett
> 
I may have erased the message this refers to.  What was it?



I'm knott saying.....


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .






From paul.lake  Mon Sep 22 11:47:02 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:47:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEMGHFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BB9483A6.54EE%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/20/03 7:49 AM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote:

> Aren't those formalists just freedom haters?

As another Republican president might have said, "There you go again."


---
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From paul.lake  Mon Sep 22 11:49:09 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:49:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <44512435.1064057119@async48-37.async.duke.edu>
Message-ID: <BB948424.54EF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/20/03 10:25 AM, David Kellogg at kellogg at duke.edu wrote:

> I'm in the midst of composing a critical response to Paul Lake's "Enchanted
> Loom" essay.  Thanks, by the way, for sharing it, Paul.
> 
> I'm curious, though -- can anybody tell me who edits the Contemporary
> Poetry Review, where it appeared?  The website is strangely anonymous.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
David, the editor is Garrick Davis.

Paul

---
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From paul.lake  Mon Sep 22 11:52:04 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:52:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
Message-ID: <BB9484D4.54EF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

It's odd that others have started to use the baseball analogy because this
morning I thought of one of my own.

Some formal poets feel the same way about free verse that baseball purists
feel about the designated hitter rule in the AL: they fell it's a newfangled
invention that violates the purity of a very old game.

Paul Lake

---
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From GrahamD  Mon Sep 22 12:31:40 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:31:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Designated Hitter
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A082@mail.ripon.edu>

>>>>>>>>>>>Some formal poets feel the same way about free verse that
baseball purists
feel about the designated hitter rule in the AL: they fell it's a newfangled
invention that violates the purity of a very old game.

Paul Lake
-------------------

Yup.  But the real problem here is that damned iambic pentameter stuff.
Fancypants French import.  Never shoulda messed with those good old Saxon
rhythms, I say. . . .



============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From paul.lake  Mon Sep 22 12:48:53 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:48:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] blurt?
In-Reply-To: <003b01c37f97$232bd410$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <BB949225.54F5%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Count me as one who does, Chad. And sometimes I write a kind of hybrid blend
of both.

Paul

on 9/20/03 11:49 AM, TheOldMole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:

> Marcus - I think it's less and less uncommon for poets to write in both
> formal and free styles.
> 
> 
> Tad
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] blurt?
> 
> 
>>> Because writing in free verse doesn't preclude loving formal verse?<<
>> 
>> Sure it does: because the entire matrix within which "formal verse"
>> exists is antithetical to the very notion of "free verse". Free verse
>> deliberately set out to discard the adulterant of verse in order to
>> try to get poetry pure. If you write free verse you must, perforce,
>> reject all that formal verse stands for -- and if you don't, well,
>> then, on what grounds do you claim that your free verse is free,
>> verse, or any good within its own terms?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
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From kellogg  Mon Sep 22 13:03:18 2003
From: kellogg (David Kellogg)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:03:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
References: <BB948424.54EF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F6F2B55.3020300@duke.edu>

Thanks Paul.  

I do want to respond seriously to "The Enchanted Loom," because I think 
it deserves a serious response.  As I said, I have a lot of problems 
with it.  But I still found it worth reading.  I hope to have a 
considered response in a few days.

Best,
David

Paul Lake wrote:

>on 9/20/03 10:25 AM, David Kellogg at kellogg at duke.edu wrote:
>
>>I'm in the midst of composing a critical response to Paul Lake's "Enchanted
>>Loom" essay.  Thanks, by the way, for sharing it, Paul.
>>
>>I'm curious, though -- can anybody tell me who edits the Contemporary
>>Poetry Review, where it appeared?  The website is strangely anonymous.
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>---
>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>
>>
>David, the editor is Garrick Davis.
>
>Paul
>
>---
>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
David Kellogg
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University 
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637
http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg


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From paul.lake  Mon Sep 22 13:04:57 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:04:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1692 - 14 msgs
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF7E@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <BB9495E8.54F7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Dear Bill,

And please call me Paul. I've never been one of those optimistic NF poets
who believed that using rhyme and meter would bring back a wide readership
to poetry. I'm too much the pessimist to believe that poetry in any shape or
form can compete with the Internet, TV, movies and popular song. I have
noted a similarity between the lyricism of formal verse and popular song
lyrics and I do believe that readers and listeners enjoy formal verse, but I
don't foresee a revolution in poetry or literature in general that will
bring back millions of readers.

As to whether my essays will change anyone's mind, I guess I more or less
feel as you do--that they mostly won't. I think when I started out the
first, "The Shape of Poetry," I thought I might shift the debate a bit, but
I haven't been that optimistic in years.  In fact, after writing 4 of the 5
or 6 necessary to complete the book I originally envisioned, I'm finding it
hard to summon up the will and energy to complete the thing. Like you, I
realize that most people involved with writing poetry or teaching it are
impervious to argument. There are politics and group loyalties involved. I
suppose I write essays for the same reason I write poetry: because if feels
good to see things turn out right, to complete the arc.  I may yet write the
final essay, get all the notes in order, and try to get it published as a
book, but lately I haven't even had the urge to write to the New England
Review to see if, as they said they were, still considering "Poetry in the
Mother Tongue" for publication.

I do like to think that a few kindred souls will read and enjoy the essays.
And I've been told by a few people that this or that essay changed the way
they looked at things. I just don't foresee a wholesale shift in the ongoing
debate. I guess I'm not egotistical enough to think I can make that big a
difference.  An interesting thought experiment, though, is to wonder what
people would make of the essays if they were written by somebody much more
famous and accepted within the literary/academic marketplace.

Besides, I still get a childish kick out of seeing my name in print. And I
figure I might as well try to do a good job on something if my name's
attached.

Thanks for all your thoughtful and provocative comments.

Paul




on 9/20/03 12:41 PM, William Knott at William_Knott at emerson.edu wrote:

> Dear Paul Lake:
> 
> I admire your synthesizing intelligence, the breadth of your erudition, and
> the scope of your ambition. . .
> 
> Your essays are truly fascinating and, as I said before, irrefutable by me.
> (I assume you're doing a book of them. . .)
> 
> But I wonder if they will change many minds.
> 
> Are any members of the School of Noisiness going to convert after reading your
> essays?  (If they even bother to read them.) They're not going to change their
> views: they can't change in any case, because as Paul Valery observed,
> "Everything changes except the avantgarde."
> 
> And let's assume you logically and scientifically prove your points.  Let's
> assume no one can gainsay you.  (I couldn't begin to try, even if I wanted to,
> which I don't.)  
> 
> But what about Milosz?  In his lecture, "The Lesson of Biology," he depicts
> the poet as a childish rebel, a "recalcitrant" fixated in the school-boy
> stage, stubbornly unwilling to accept the scientific logic of the adult world.
> . . .  Please forgive me, Paul Lake, if I point out Milosz's portrayal of the
> poet, and ask you
> to consider whether that Milosz-defined poet would commendate your logic and
> science. . . .
> 
> But can I ask you your thoughts on something else that interests me??
> 
> I appreciate your willingness, your indulgence to bother with my na?ve
> questions:
> 
> I'm not a New Formalist, and you are I think: at least you're published in
> their anthols, and you seem associated with them.
> 
> (Parenthetically, though I'm not a New Formalist, though I'm not in that group
> per se, and despite the many differences between us, I think that both you and
> I would be lumped together as members of the "School of Quietude," that
> condemnatory sobriquet coined by the School of Noisiness to characterize all
> those of us who don't subscribe to their endlessly boring avantgarde nonsense.
> . . .)
> 
> Anyway, my question is:  Billy Collins.  Because the New Formalists were
> supposed to be the ones who would reach a wider audience, weren't they: that
> was part of their (your) raison detre, wasn't it?   That was part of your
> manifesto.  You NFs were going to reach all those potential average readers,
> those common readers who had stopped reading poetry  due to the Gresham's Law
> hegemony of freeverse, you were going to be the ones to break through that
> embargo, break out of the poetry ghetto, achieve a popular readership. . . .
> That was part of your promise when you began, wasn't it?
> 
> So why is Collins is the one who's done what you all hoped to do?  (Not to
> mention Sharon Olds, whose books are in their 14th or 15th  or Nth  printing
> and flood the bookstore shelves everywhere.)   It can't be just the comic
> ingeniousness of Collins, can it, your Glynn is just as . . . just as. . . .
> 
> So what is it?   Why is Collins connecting with that greater audience the NFs
> aspired to reach but didn't (with the possible exception of Dana Gioia??but
> even he's not in the sales stratosphere of Collins and Olds). . . .
> 
> I ask this not from any position superior to yours in terms of popularity (or
> merit, for that matter), my books all die with a first printing . . .
> 
> I'd be interested in your thoughts on the matter.
> 
> ??Thanks from Bill Knott
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From paul  Mon Sep 22 13:23:12 2003
From: paul (Paul C. Howell)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:23:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] I'll shout you a round
In-Reply-To: <200309221601.h8MG1AST022243@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030922132223.03af42b0@mail.tbhinc.com>

At 12:01 PM 9/22/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Good luck with your next windmill, Senor Quixote.  I'm headed to the bar to
>see if Wendy Battin & David Kellogg want to tip a few.


I'm so glad it's over.

Paul C. Howell





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From paul.lake  Mon Sep 22 13:23:52 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:23:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Designated Hitter
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A082@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BB949A58.54FD%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/22/03 11:31 AM, Graham, David at GrahamD at ripon.edu wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>> Some formal poets feel the same way about free verse that
> baseball purists
> feel about the designated hitter rule in the AL: they fell it's a newfangled
> invention that violates the purity of a very old game.
> 
> Paul Lake
> -------------------
> 
> Yup.  But the real problem here is that damned iambic pentameter stuff.
> Fancypants French import.  Never shoulda messed with those good old Saxon
> rhythms, I say. . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
I've just had my poetry students writing in Anglo Saxon accentual verse and
they've been turning out their best stuff so far. I'm all in favor of Anglo
Saxon verse.

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From JforJames  Mon Sep 22 13:32:55 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:32:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] A qualified claim that communication is impossible
Message-ID: <62.34ed7e6e.2ca08c47@aol.com>

This subject line made me think of this Chas. Olson
quote I encountered recently:
In a note to himself while working on The Maximus Poems, 
Charles Olson wrote: "It's all right to be difficult, but you can't be 
impossible."
Finnegan



From JforJames  Mon Sep 22 13:35:20 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:35:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog -- 60,000 visitors
Message-ID: <165.256a0c3f.2ca08cd8@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/22/03 7:13:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ron.silliman at verizon.net writes:

> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/
>  
Ron, I like the content on your blog, but I notice
in your picture you have a bottle of Poland Spring
front & center...has "product placement" marketing
reached into the world of poetry? Say it aint so.
Finnegan



From JforJames  Mon Sep 22 14:34:40 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:34:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stan Rice (1942-2002)
Message-ID: <177.202b0a55.2ca09ac0@aol.com>

Subj:    Stan Rice (1942-2002)
Date:   9/22/03 2:16:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com (The Knopf Poetry Center)

This poem is from FALSE PROPHET, the final collection of poetry by Stan
Rice, who died of cancer in December 2002.

******************************************************

Psalm 153

I lay my head on a pillar
But was not prepared with a sacrifice.
Do you understand the distinction.
That's wonderful.
But there's a difference between seeing
And doing. A contrite heart
Walks uprightly growling.
I say this with love.
But dont admire me.
Be at my side.
Move with me.
See, we are  waiting to be asked
To hold our breath.
Be prepared to move toward the problem.
Just this last Friday night
We opened the doors
And in came some ushers.
In the kingdom of places parts are a wave.
If you rush, the ferry will be on its way.
As will I.
Selah.


******************************************************



From marcus  Mon Sep 22 14:50:12 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:50:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom/English
In-Reply-To: <3F6EFF95.5050409@duke.edu>
Message-ID: <3F6F0C24.3534.18FC36C@localhost>

 this kind of crappily
>     trivial objection ought not be used to cast this sort of specious
>     doubt on "the rest" of an essay, lest reasonable readers suspect
>     that that, like Wendy's comment about the typos, is the very best
>     that one can do to disagree with the substance of the matter.

> I suppose Joyce was being "politically correct" to insist on the
> Irishness of Sterne and Swift.  You're an interesting character,
> Marcus: you have accused Wendy of taking a quote out of context when
> you routinely snip others' posts to your advantage.<<

No, I accused you of taking Wendy's quote out of context.  As for 
Joyce's "political correctness" he was addressing an entirely 
different issue than Lake was in his use of "English writer". Your 
suggesting that calling people who write in English "English writers" 
in the context of a discussion about verse that ranges widely over a 
number of different languages seems to be trivially politically 
correct.






From rwilsnac  Mon Sep 22 15:47:12 2003
From: rwilsnac (Richard Wilsnack)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:47:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Designated Hitter
In-Reply-To: <BB949A58.54FD%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A082@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030922144539.00bacc30@medicine.nodak.edu>

At 12:23 PM 9/22/2003 -0500, Paul Lake wrote:
>on 9/22/03 11:31 AM, Graham, David at GrahamD at ripon.edu wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Some formal poets feel the same way about free verse that
> > baseball purists
> > feel about the designated hitter rule in the AL: they fell it's a 
> newfangled
> > invention that violates the purity of a very old game.
> >
> > Paul Lake
> > -------------------
> >
> > Yup.  But the real problem here is that damned iambic pentameter stuff.
> > Fancypants French import.  Never shoulda messed with those good old Saxon
> > rhythms, I say. . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================
> > David Graham

Well litter'd with alliteration?

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu




From paul.lake  Mon Sep 22 14:55:09 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:55:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom/English
In-Reply-To: <3F6F0C24.3534.18FC36C@localhost>
Message-ID: <BB94AFBD.5506%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Someone might want to tell the editors of the Norton Anthology of English
Literature I have on my shelf to expunge Yeats, Swift, Shaw, etc.

Paul Lake



on 9/22/03 1:50 PM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote:

> this kind of crappily
>>     trivial objection ought not be used to cast this sort of specious
>>     doubt on "the rest" of an essay, lest reasonable readers suspect
>>     that that, like Wendy's comment about the typos, is the very best
>>     that one can do to disagree with the substance of the matter.
> 
>> I suppose Joyce was being "politically correct" to insist on the
>> Irishness of Sterne and Swift.  You're an interesting character,
>> Marcus: you have accused Wendy of taking a quote out of context when
>> you routinely snip others' posts to your advantage.<<
> 
> No, I accused you of taking Wendy's quote out of context.  As for
> Joyce's "political correctness" he was addressing an entirely
> different issue than Lake was in his use of "English writer". Your
> suggesting that calling people who write in English "English writers"
> in the context of a discussion about verse that ranges widely over a
> number of different languages seems to be trivially politically
> correct.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From marcus  Mon Sep 22 16:26:19 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:26:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <3F6F02EC.5070803@duke.edu>
Message-ID: <3F6F22AB.15655.1E7C370@localhost>

> Provide a context that is not a Marcus-generated summary, then. You're
> the one eviscerating the context.

Why not read the actual posts in order in context and see for 
yourself? Why should it be incumbent upon me to do your research for 
you? You've admitted over and over that you don't know the context 
and yet you seem to insist that whatever summary of it that I offer 
can't be right. Well, maybe it's not right: but isn't it incumbent on 
you to do the research to support your view? If not, if it is 
incumbent on me to show that my own view is wrong, then isn't it 
incumbent on you to show that your own view is wrong?

> >She is presenting this notion in the defense of her assertion that it
> > is impossible adequately to define "the working class" well enough
> >so that her and my and Sam's experiences of poetry and the working
> >class are explicable. Her goal in making the statement you quote is
> >to foreclose the possibility of discussion about whether it is
> >possible to communicate by refining one's definitions in search of
> >enough agreement to have a discussion about the similarities and
> >differences of one's perceptions.
> >
> Really? Where does she state this goal? Or are you reading her mind?

Well, I don't know about reading her mind but I'm trying to 
understand what she says. In the context of my suggestion to her that 
she and I examine the notion of 'the working class' with respect to 
our (hers and my and Sam's) claims of different experiences regarding 
poetry and that 'working class', she says that it's not something 
that can be done: that she and I and Sam would all come away from any 
encounter regarding poetry and the working class with incompatible 
narratives of what happened. 

Frankly, I think she's wrong about that in that I think Sam's and my 
narratives would be fairly close together, but I think she's right 
that mine would be different from hers (and, I think, that Sam's 
would be different from hers, too). 

But that aside, it seems clear to me that Wendy is trying to say that 
she and Sam and I cannot come to an agreement on what we mean by 
'working class' or what happens when the class we can't agree on 
encounters poetry. 

Now, none of us, Wendy, Sam, or me, is unintelligent or inarticulate, 
so it seems reasonable to say that Wendy is claiming that EVEN she, 
Sam, and I cannot agree on a definition of what the working class is. 



From William_Knott  Mon Sep 22 17:00:32 2003
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:00:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul Lake book/Freeverse versus
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF84@mail.emerson.edu>

I hope you will finish and publish your book of essays soon, Paul. . . .

But don't be so modest: I can't be the only one to envy the breadth and depth of your erudition and eloquence. . . .

*

Re the freeverse formal question. . . . over the years I've mostly written freeverse. . .
but my next book (scheduled for publication next year by Farrar, Straus & Giroux) will contain quite a few poems in the form of rhymed syllabics.  Usually decasyllabic, but also hendec/octo/nano etcet. . . .

Anybody in the forum here know of poets writing in rhymed syllabic form. . . .?
if it is a form and not a bastardization. . . .  


Thanks from Bill Knott
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From antrobin  Mon Sep 22 17:04:02 2003
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:04:02 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Paul Lake book/Freeverse versus
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF84@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <001001c3814d$16dc3120$ad381c40@Emily>

Well, there's always Marianne Moore...


Tony



>Anybody in the forum here know of poets writing in rhymed syllabic
>form. . . .?
>if it is a form and not a bastardization. . . .  








From ron.silliman  Mon Sep 22 17:17:39 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:17:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Branding
In-Reply-To: <200309221959.h8MJx2ST025173@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <000401c3814e$f7a258f0$90fef343@Dell>

Message: 8
From: JforJames at aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:35:20 EDT
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog -- 60,000 visitors
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

In a message dated 9/22/03 7:13:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ron.silliman at verizon.net writes:

> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/
>  
Ron, I like the content on your blog, but I notice
in your picture you have a bottle of Poland Spring
front & center...has "product placement" marketing
reached into the world of poetry? Say it aint so.
Finnegan


-------------------------

James,

No, I'm holding out for a Dasini contract. As Coke's branded version of
tap water, they should be able to pay much more.

Ron








From cstroffo  Mon Sep 22 10:33:43 2003
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino )
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:33:43 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Designated Hitter
Message-ID: <200309222120.h8MLKRou165728@pimout1-ext.prodigy.net>

i keep seeing this as designated hitler

----------
>From: Richard Wilsnack <rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Designated Hitter
>Date: Mon, Sep 22, 2003, 7:47 PM
>

> At 12:23 PM 9/22/2003 -0500, Paul Lake wrote:
>>on 9/22/03 11:31 AM, Graham, David at GrahamD at ripon.edu wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Some formal poets feel the same way about free verse that
>> > baseball purists
>> > feel about the designated hitter rule in the AL: they fell it's a
>> newfangled
>> > invention that violates the purity of a very old game.
>> >
>> > Paul Lake
>> > -------------------
>> >
>> > Yup.  But the real problem here is that damned iambic pentameter stuff.
>> > Fancypants French import.  Never shoulda messed with those good old Saxon
>> > rhythms, I say. . . .
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ============================================
>> > David Graham
>
> Well litter'd with alliteration?
>
> Richard W. Wilsnack
> rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From William_Knott  Mon Sep 22 17:22:18 2003
From: William_Knott (William Knott)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:22:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] rhymed syllabics
Message-ID: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF85@mail.emerson.edu>

thanks to Anthony Robinson for reminding me of Moore. . . 

i guess i meant living poets. . . .?   


bill knotthead
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From tadrichards  Mon Sep 22 17:30:02 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:30:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Designated Hitter
References: <BB949A58.54FD%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <004a01c38150$afa3a4d0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Given the longevity and widespread acceptance of free verse, a better
analogy than the designated hitter would be the curve ball.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Designated Hitter


> on 9/22/03 11:31 AM, Graham, David at GrahamD at ripon.edu wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Some formal poets feel the same way about free verse that
> > baseball purists
> > feel about the designated hitter rule in the AL: they fell it's a
newfangled
> > invention that violates the purity of a very old game.
> >
> > Paul Lake
> > -------------------
> >
> > Yup.  But the real problem here is that damned iambic pentameter stuff.
> > Fancypants French import.  Never shoulda messed with those good old
Saxon
> > rhythms, I say. . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================
> > David Graham
> > Professor of English, Ripon College
> > grahamd at ripon.edu
> >    Home Page:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >    My Poetry Library:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >
> > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> > ============================================
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > ---
> > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> >
> >
> I've just had my poetry students writing in Anglo Saxon accentual verse
and
> they've been turning out their best stuff so far. I'm all in favor of
Anglo
> Saxon verse.
>
> Paul Lake
>
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman  Mon Sep 22 17:55:00 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:55:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A qualified claim that communication is impossible
References: <8C9FDA55-ED0E-11D7-B344-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <01bc01c38154$2c00ed00$7b53fea9@j1c1k6>

> On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 10:57 AM, David Kellogg wrote:
> > Though I'm hopeful for the fate of communciation more generally, I
> > have decided that communication with Marcus is impossible.
> > Anyway, Marcus, I bow out.  Give up.  Submit.  Uncle.  Whatever.
> > No wonder I post to the list so rarely. . .
>
> You beat me to it, David.  I was about to say that I've never thought
> communication impossible, but in Marcus's case I'm willing to make an
> exception.
> I bow out too.
>
> Wendy
>
> Wendy Battin

Great!  That means I'm STILL the one who lasted the most rounds with Marcus!

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Mon Sep 22 18:01:03 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:01:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <BB9484D4.54EF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <01eb01c38155$04890e00$7b53fea9@j1c1k6>

> It's odd that others have started to use the baseball analogy because this
> morning I thought of one of my own.
>
> Some formal poets feel the same way about free verse that baseball purists
> feel about the designated hitter rule in the AL: they feel it's a
newfangled
> invention that violates the purity of a very old game.
>
> Paul Lake

I feel that way, myself.  But there's one big thing wrong with your analogy,
Paul: free verse is not a contaminant of formal verse but a different game.
Marcus can't understand that, either.

--Bob G.






From marcus  Mon Sep 22 18:10:41 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:10:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
In-Reply-To: <01eb01c38155$04890e00$7b53fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3F6F3B21.5919.247506F@localhost>

> ...  But there's one big thing wrong with your
> analogy, Paul: free verse is not a contaminant of formal verse but a
> different game. Marcus can't understand that, either.

Well, maybe that's because people like you keep insisting that verse 
is poetry and poetry is verse and free verse is poetry. If you keep 
insisting on identity on the one hand while insisting on it being "a 
different game" on the other, you are either lying to yourself or to 
others or you are so confused that you don't know what you're doing.







From jvcervantes  Mon Sep 22 19:20:15 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:20:15 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] A qualified claim that communication is impossible
References: <8C9FDA55-ED0E-11D7-B344-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> <01bc01c38154$2c00ed00$7b53fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3F6F83B0.1B286E0E@earthlink.net>


Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> > On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 10:57 AM, David Kellogg wrote:
> > > Though I'm hopeful for the fate of communciation more generally, I
> > > have decided that communication with Marcus is impossible.
> > > Anyway, Marcus, I bow out.  Give up.  Submit.  Uncle.  Whatever.
> > > No wonder I post to the list so rarely. . .
> >
> > You beat me to it, David.  I was about to say that I've never thought
> > communication impossible, but in Marcus's case I'm willing to make an
> > exception.
> > I bow out too.
> >
> > Wendy
> >
> > Wendy Battin
> 
> Great!  That means I'm STILL the one who lasted the most rounds with Marcus!
> 

But I'll bet you didn't "win."

- Jim



From jvcervantes  Mon Sep 22 19:28:50 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:28:50 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F6F3B21.5919.247506F@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F6F85B2.D31E6065@earthlink.net>


Marcus Bales wrote:
> 
> > ...  But there's one big thing wrong with your
> > analogy, Paul: free verse is not a contaminant of formal verse but a
> > different game. Marcus can't understand that, either.
> 
> Well, maybe that's because people like you keep insisting that verse
> is poetry and poetry is verse and free verse is poetry. If you keep
> insisting on identity on the one hand while insisting on it being "a
> different game" on the other, you are either lying to yourself or to
> others or you are so confused that you don't know what you're doing.

Free verse IS poetry.  Uncounted Frenchpersons, Englishpersons, German
guys & gals, Icelanders, Hawaiins (?), Welshpersons, Puerto Ricans,
Spaniards, Italians, poets laureate, Chileans . . . etc. can't be
"wrong."  But if you want to be "right," Marcus, you're right.

- Jim



From robin.hamilton2  Mon Sep 22 19:49:36 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 00:49:36 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F6F3B21.5919.247506F@localhost>
Message-ID: <011901c38164$2e5fd150$448c8051@MyPC>

From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>

> > ...  But there's one big thing wrong with your
> > analogy, Paul: free verse is not a contaminant of formal verse but a
> > different game. Marcus can't understand that, either.
>
> Well, maybe that's because people like you keep insisting that verse
> is poetry and poetry is verse and free verse is poetry. If you keep
> insisting on identity on the one hand while insisting on it being "a
> different game" on the other, you are either lying to yourself or to
> others or you are so confused that you don't know what you're doing.

Contemplate Set Theory (in visual terms, a Venn Diagram):

There are (at least four) sets, "poetry", "free verse", "formal verse" and
"verse [pure and unsimple]"

"free verse" and "formal verse" can be either considered as exclusive sets,
or as subsets of "verse".

If "free verse" is a subset of "verse", then there's a dot-in-the-middle
where "poetry" and "verse" intersect.

If "free verse" is a distinct set from "verse", there's a dot where "verse",
"free verse", and "poetry" intersect.

I could rewrite this in terms of either (Strict) Formal (Aristotelean) Logic
or even [dog help me] Ramistic Logic, but who needs it?

Just [which I rarely do] cried "It's a real wolf!" so ...

Frivolously ...

:-)

Count Alfred Korzybski










From bobgrumman  Mon Sep 22 20:31:00 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:31:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A qualified claim that communication is impossible
References: <8C9FDA55-ED0E-11D7-B344-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu> <01bc01c38154$2c00ed00$7b53fea9@j1c1k6> <3F6F83B0.1B286E0E@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <036a01c38169$f7568ea0$7b53fea9@j1c1k6>

> Bob Grumman wrote:
> >
> > > On Monday, September 22, 2003, at 10:57 AM, David Kellogg wrote:
> > > > Though I'm hopeful for the fate of communciation more generally, I
> > > > have decided that communication with Marcus is impossible.
> > > > Anyway, Marcus, I bow out.  Give up.  Submit.  Uncle.  Whatever.
> > > > No wonder I post to the list so rarely. . .
> > >
> > > You beat me to it, David.  I was about to say that I've never thought
> > > communication impossible, but in Marcus's case I'm willing to make an
> > > exception.
> > > I bow out too.
> > >
> > > Wendy
> > >
> > > Wendy Battin
> >
> > Great!  That means I'm STILL the one who lasted the most rounds with
Marcus!
> >
>
> But I'll bet you didn't "win."
>
> - Jim

Surely that goes without saying.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Mon Sep 22 20:37:57 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:37:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F6F3B21.5919.247506F@localhost>
Message-ID: <037201c3816a$efa832c0$7b53fea9@j1c1k6>

> > ...  But there's one big thing wrong with your
> > analogy, Paul: free verse is not a contaminant of formal verse but a
> > different game. Marcus can't understand that, either.

> Well, maybe that's because people like you keep insisting that verse
> is poetry and poetry is verse and free verse is poetry.

I don't "insist" that verse is poetry, I state that FOR ME (and many
dictionaries), it is.   I then give poetry a definition that permits both
formal and free verse to qualify as poetry.  I don't see where I'm confused.
It's like saying candies and sweets are the same thing, and that chocolates
and gumdrops are two different kinds of candy--or sweet.

--Bob G.






>If you keep
> insisting on identity on the one hand while insisting on it being "a
> different game" on the other, you are either lying to yourself or to
> others or you are so confused that you don't know what you're doing.







From Rsgwynn1  Mon Sep 22 20:51:19 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:51:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul Lake book/Freeverse versus
Message-ID: <94.3d42f180.2ca0f307@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/22/2003 4:02:16 PM Central Daylight Time, 
William_Knott at emerson.edu writes: 
> Anybody in the forum here know of poets writing in rhymed syllabic form. . 
> . .?
> if it is a form and not a bastardization. . . .  
> 
Thom Gunn.
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From bardo  Mon Sep 22 21:31:22 2003
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 21:31:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F6F3B21.5919.247506F@localhost>
 <011901c38164$2e5fd150$448c8051@MyPC>
Message-ID: <01a201c38172$6599d0e0$6d94c044@MULDER>

Perhaps, if Marcus would replace the "be" forms in the excerpt below
("maybe," "that's," "is" (3x), "being," "are" (2x), and "you're"), he might
abandon definition and cease to identify the map with the territory. (Don't
perturb: get new verbs!)

Adipose likelihood.

Meanwhile, Robin, I'll also put my money on the Count: "vun--vun poetree!
twoo--twoo poetrees! thrrree--thrrree poetrees! heh-heh-heh!"

Dan--vun poet, many poetrees


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Cc: "Richard Dillon" <elemenope at icubed.com>
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Blurt?


> From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
>
> > > ...  But there's one big thing wrong with your
> > > analogy, Paul: free verse is not a contaminant of formal verse but a
> > > different game. Marcus can't understand that, either.
> >
> > Well, maybe that's because people like you keep insisting that verse
> > is poetry and poetry is verse and free verse is poetry. If you keep
> > insisting on identity on the one hand while insisting on it being "a
> > different game" on the other, you are either lying to yourself or to
> > others or you are so confused that you don't know what you're doing.
>
> Contemplate Set Theory (in visual terms, a Venn Diagram):
>
> There are (at least four) sets, "poetry", "free verse", "formal verse" and
> "verse [pure and unsimple]"
>
> "free verse" and "formal verse" can be either considered as exclusive
sets,
> or as subsets of "verse".
>
> If "free verse" is a subset of "verse", then there's a dot-in-the-middle
> where "poetry" and "verse" intersect.
>
> If "free verse" is a distinct set from "verse", there's a dot where
"verse",
> "free verse", and "poetry" intersect.
>
> I could rewrite this in terms of either (Strict) Formal (Aristotelean)
Logic
> or even [dog help me] Ramistic Logic, but who needs it?
>
> Just [which I rarely do] cried "It's a real wolf!" so ...
>
> Frivolously ...
>
> :-)
>
> Count Alfred Korzybski
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From bobgrumman  Tue Sep 23 06:07:07 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 06:07:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F6F3B21.5919.247506F@localhost> <011901c38164$2e5fd150$448c8051@MyPC>
Message-ID: <01d401c381ba$72ec6120$1809fea9@j1c1k6>

> Contemplate Set Theory (in visual terms, a Venn Diagram):
>
> There are (at least four) sets, "poetry", "free verse", "formal verse" and
> "verse [pure and unsimple]"

But for me "verse" and "poetry" are names for the same set.


> "free verse" and "formal verse" can be either considered as exclusive
sets,
> or as subsets of "verse".
>
> If "free verse" is a subset of "verse", then there's a dot-in-the-middle
> where "poetry" and "verse" intersect.



> If "free verse" is a distinct set from "verse", there's a dot where
"verse",
> "free verse", and "poetry" intersect.

What happened to "formal verse."  I fear I couldn't follow any of this.

--Bob G.




From marcus  Tue Sep 23 07:49:30 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:49:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
In-Reply-To: <037201c3816a$efa832c0$7b53fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3F6FFB0A.12279.15B079@localhost>

> > > ...  But there's one big thing wrong with your
> > > analogy, Paul: free verse is not a contaminant of formal verse but
> > > a different game. Marcus can't understand that, either.
 
> > Well, maybe that's because people like you keep insisting that verse
> > is poetry and poetry is verse and free verse is poetry.
 
> I don't "insist" that verse is poetry, I state that FOR ME (and many
> dictionaries), it is.<<

Well, that "for me" formulation, if you intend to rely on it 
seriously, means that you must also believe that when a torturer says 
that "for me torture is like love" you must believe him -- and to the 
extent you want your "for me" to be acceptable as an excuse to 
believe something, you must accept his or her "for me" as an excuse 
to believe something. 

As for "many dictionaries", well, it's a good thing physics or 
medicine isn't practiced according to the dictionary, and it would be 
just as well if poetry theorists didn't rely on dictionary 
definitions, for the same reason. Once you decide that you're willing 
to get stuck with a lexicographer's understanding of your field 
you're sunk.

> I then give poetry a definition that permits
> both formal and free verse to qualify as poetry.  I don't see where
> I'm confused. It's like saying candies and sweets are the same thing,
> and that chocolates and gumdrops are two different kinds of candy--or
> sweet.

No, you didn't. You said that sweets are a different game than 
candies -- and NOW you say they are the same game. That's where the 
confusion enters: in your simultaneous claim of both.






From marcus  Tue Sep 23 07:49:30 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:49:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
In-Reply-To: <011901c38164$2e5fd150$448c8051@MyPC>
Message-ID: <3F6FFB0A.8937.15AF61@localhost>

> > > ...  But there's one big thing wrong with your
> > > analogy, Paul: free verse is not a contaminant of formal verse but
> > > a different game. Marcus can't understand that, either.

> > Well, maybe that's because people like you keep insisting that verse
> > is poetry and poetry is verse and free verse is poetry. If you keep
> > insisting on identity on the one hand while insisting on it being "a
> > different game" on the other, you are either lying to yourself or to
> > others or you are so confused that you don't know what you're doing.
 
> Contemplate Set Theory (in visual terms, a Venn Diagram):
> There are (at least four) sets, "poetry", "free verse", "formal verse"
> and "verse [pure and unsimple]"
> "free verse" and "formal verse" can be either considered as exclusive
> sets, or as subsets of "verse".
> If "free verse" is a subset of "verse", then there's a
> dot-in-the-middle where "poetry" and "verse" intersect.
> If "free verse" is a distinct set from "verse", there's a dot where
> "verse", "free verse", and "poetry" intersect.

And it's still not a different game.






From marcus  Tue Sep 23 07:49:30 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:49:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
In-Reply-To: <3F6F85B2.D31E6065@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F6FFB0A.10647.15AE3F@localhost>

> > > ...  But there's one big thing wrong with your
> > > analogy, Paul: free verse is not a contaminant of formal verse but
> > > a different game. Marcus can't understand that, either.

> > Well, maybe that's because people like you keep insisting that verse
> > is poetry and poetry is verse and free verse is poetry. If you keep
> > insisting on identity on the one hand while insisting on it being "a
> > different game" on the other, you are either lying to yourself or to
> > others or you are so confused that you don't know what you're doing.
 
> Free verse IS poetry.<<

Then it's not a different game.






From paul.lake  Tue Sep 23 11:47:05 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 10:47:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul Lake book/Freeverse versus
In-Reply-To: <926B4A8D55661047B1353EC03E69CE2DA6CF84@mail.emerson.edu>
Message-ID: <BB95D529.5526%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/22/03 4:00 PM, William Knott at William_Knott at emerson.edu wrote:

> I hope you will finish and publish your book of essays soon, Paul. . . .
> 
> But don't be so modest: I can't be the only one to envy the breadth and depth
> of your erudition and eloquence. . . .
> 
> *
> 
> Re the freeverse formal question. . . . over the years I've mostly written
> freeverse. . .
> but my next book (scheduled for publication next year by Farrar, Straus &
> Giroux) will contain quite a few poems in the form of rhymed syllabics.
> Usually decasyllabic, but also hendec/octo/nano etcet. . . .
> 
> Anybody in the forum here know of poets writing in rhymed syllabic form. . .
> .?
> if it is a form and not a bastardization. . . .
> 
> 
> Thanks from Bill Knott
> 
There's always good old Marianne Moore, and maybe Brad Leithauser, though
I'd have to take a look at count some syllables to be sure.

I'll look out for the new book.

Paul


---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From chris  Tue Sep 23 12:46:30 2003
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:46:30 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
In-Reply-To: <3F6FFB0A.12279.15B079@localhost>
References: <3F6FFB0A.12279.15B079@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F7078E6.8020708@chrislott.org>

Marcus Bales wrote:

> if you intend to rely on it
> seriously, means that you must also believe that when a torturer says 
> that "for me torture is like love" you must believe him

There is probably more truth in this than all of the preceding 
discussion, and it is certainly much more interesting. There *is* love 
in both torturer and executioner alike.

c
-- 
Chris Lott (chris at chrislott.org)
http://www.chrislott.org/

"May my silences become more accurate" --Theodore Roethke






From robin.hamilton2  Tue Sep 23 12:54:37 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:54:37 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F6F3B21.5919.247506F@localhost> <011901c38164$2e5fd150$448c8051@MyPC> <01d401c381ba$72ec6120$1809fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <024201c381f3$5ff4f170$448c8051@MyPC>

Bob Grumman wrote:

> But for me "verse" and "poetry" are names for the same set.

Um ...  Would go back to (at least) Aristotle's _Poetics_, where he said not
all verse is poetry, and not all poetry is in verse.

("It's about the metaphor, stupid!" Aristotle said)

> > If "free verse" is a distinct set from "verse", there's a dot where
> "verse",
> > "free verse", and "poetry" intersect.
>
> What happened to "formal verse."  I fear I couldn't follow any of this.
>
> --Bob G.

Sorry -- in this context, verse = formal verse

    Not all poetry is written in verse
    Not all written in verse is poetry

But "formal verse" is itself pretty contentious.  There are (in English
speech) five possible metrical systems (metrics):

    Syllable-Accent
    Stress
    Syllabic
    Qualitative
    Dipodic

[Look, I'm not *just* being pedantic in including Dipodic -- try to scan
John Crowe Ransom any other way and you're up shit creek.  Captain Carpenter
rode a Dipodic horse.]

Each metric can have several derived metres.  Thus, iambic pentameter is a
metrical subset of the set Syllable-Accent.

What bugs me about the American NeoFormalist movement (Dana Gioia in
particular) is their reduction of "formal verse" to a narrow subset of
syllable-accent metric.

[Singular/Plural common-noun confusion in the above sentence deliberate,
just in case ...]

Have to say, I'm surprised that Bob, as a good Shakespearean, didn't go for
the jugular and challenge me to couch this (hm ... does the term "crap"
spring to mind?  <g>) in terms of Ramistic logic.  I think I might just be
able to make a plausible fist of this, and even (rhyzone, anyone?) link it
to post-modernism.

{OK, so Ramus doesn't occur in Shakespeare, unless Marlowe wrote him, but
gets topped in _The Massacre at Paris_.  Same time frame but.  So sue.}

It's not come up (explicitly) but the killer isn't mapping
Aristotelian/Modern Formal/Ramist logics one on the other -- easy peasy -- 
but mapping a bipolar logic (all of those three) onto a multivalent logic.
Doesn't commute either way.

Count Robin Korzybski










From GrahamD  Tue Sep 23 14:17:27 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:17:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A083@mail.ripon.edu>

	>>>>>What bugs me about the American NeoFormalist movement (Dana
Gioia in
> particular) is their reduction of "formal verse" to a narrow subset of
> syllable-accent metric.
> 
Not sure who else might be included in that "their," Robin, but I don't
think it's accurate about Gioia.  See, for example, his online essay on
accentual verse:

http://www.danagioia.net/essays/eaccentual.htm

And perhaps you missed some recent chat in this very space about Anglo Saxon
verse?  I believe that you'll find quite a few of the Rebel Angels have
experimented with accentuals, syllabics, alliterative verse, and so forth.  

Always good to be reminded, though, that there are forms and there are
forms.  Yes, indeed. 

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================







From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Sep 23 14:37:58 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:37:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Enchanted Loom
Message-ID: <20030923183758.4111A4ADE@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From kellogg  Tue Sep 23 14:38:54 2003
From: kellogg (David Kellogg)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:38:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A083@mail.ripon.edu>
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A083@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <1064342334.3f70933e05f1c@webmail.duke.edu>

Quoting "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>:

> 	>>>>>What bugs me about the American NeoFormalist movement (Dana
> Gioia in
> > particular) is their reduction of "formal verse" to a narrow subset of
> > syllable-accent metric.
> > 
> Not sure who else might be included in that "their," Robin, but I don't
> think it's accurate about Gioia.  See, for example, his online essay on
> accentual verse:
> 
> http://www.danagioia.net/essays/eaccentual.htm
> 
> And perhaps you missed some recent chat in this very space about Anglo Saxon
> verse?  I believe that you'll find quite a few of the Rebel Angels have
> experimented with accentuals, syllabics, alliterative verse, and so forth.  
> 
> Always good to be reminded, though, that there are forms and there are
> forms.  Yes, indeed. 

Exactly.  Gioia, whose views are more catholic than many NF's, should hardly be 
made the target here, though some NF's (like Timothy Steele in his critical 
work) seem to fit this description to some degree.  

And of course there's Annie Finch, one of the great independents, who has moved 
far from New Formalist orthodoxy to embrace radical forms with gusto.  
Interestingly, her latest book (the wonderful Calendars) may be the only volume 
of poetry ever published to have received blurbs from both Richard Howard and 
Ron Silliman.  

Best,
David



From hruggier  Tue Sep 23 14:52:57 2003
From: hruggier (hruggier at localnet.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:52:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Designated Hitter
In-Reply-To: <004a01c38150$afa3a4d0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
References: <BB949A58.54FD%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
        <004a01c38150$afa3a4d0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <3167.130.49.178.103.1064343177.squirrel@webmail1.localnet.com>

> Given the longevity and widespread acceptance of free verse, a better
> analogy than the designated hitter would be the curve ball.
>
  and the formalists - designated hitlers?

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 1:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Designated Hitter
>
>
>> on 9/22/03 11:31 AM, Graham, David at GrahamD at ripon.edu wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Some formal poets feel the same way about free verse that
>> > baseball purists
>> > feel about the designated hitter rule in the AL: they fell it's a
> newfangled
>> > invention that violates the purity of a very old game.
>> >
>> > Paul Lake
>> > -------------------
>> >
>> > Yup.  But the real problem here is that damned iambic pentameter
>> > stuff. Fancypants French import.  Never shoulda messed with those
>> > good old
> Saxon
>> > rhythms, I say. . . .
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ============================================
>> > David Graham
>> > Professor of English, Ripon College
>> > grahamd at ripon.edu
>> >    Home Page:
>> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>> >    My Poetry Library:
>> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>> >
>> > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
>> > ============================================
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> > ---
>> > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>> >
>> >
>> I've just had my poetry students writing in Anglo Saxon accentual
>> verse
> and
>> they've been turning out their best stuff so far. I'm all in favor of
> Anglo
>> Saxon verse.
>>
>> Paul Lake
>>
>> ---
>> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






From robin.hamilton2  Tue Sep 23 15:58:49 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:58:49 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A083@mail.ripon.edu> <1064342334.3f70933e05f1c@webmail.duke.edu>
Message-ID: <02e001c3820d$1b681ea0$448c8051@MyPC>

I suspect I'm about to be shot down in flames, but so, what else is new?
<g>

> Quoting "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>:
>
> > >>>>>What bugs me about the American NeoFormalist movement (Dana
> > Gioia in
> > > particular) is their reduction of "formal verse" to a narrow subset of
> > > syllable-accent metric.
> > >
> > Not sure who else might be included in that "their," Robin, but I don't
> > think it's accurate about Gioia.  See, for example, his online essay on
> > accentual verse:
> >
> > http://www.danagioia.net/essays/eaccentual.htm

I looked, I found ...

"
Accentual meter is the simplest, oldest, and most natural poetic measure in
English. Its origins date back to the beginnings of our language. In one
form or another it has been a constant presence in English poetry from
Beowulf and Piers Plowman to the present. Perennially popular, it is the
meter of most nursery rhymes and playground chants as well as many folk
ballads. Even today stress meter provides the underlying structure for such
forms as rap and cowboy poetry.
"

Oh, god ...  Leave aside that that absolutely *lovely* elide between Beowulf
and Langland (which manages to conflate and confuse strict AS alliterative
metre with 14thC poetry via ignoring Aelfric and Wulfstan but hey, no one's
perfect ...) -- "the meter of most nursery rhymes and playground chants as
well as many folk ballads" ISN'T sodding stress metre, it's dipodic.  That's
the whole screaming POINT!!!  ***

<sigh>

Both syllable-accent and stress metres pattern on binary -- dipodic metre
patterns on a (perceived, consciously or not) triad:  unstressed, weak
stressed, strong stressed.

    Humpty dumpty sat on the wall,
    Humpty dumpty had a great fall.

This isn't exactly news -- you can reach it via either Malof's _A Manual of
English Meters_ or Derek Attridge's _The Rhythms of English Poetry_,
depending on whether you want your lock via classical scansion or
linguistics.

OK, so I only read the first paragraph so far.  I'll read the rest,
promise -- if nothing else, it'll give me a good laugh.  I suppose.

:-(

> > And perhaps you missed some recent chat in this very space about Anglo
Saxon
> > verse?

Missed it ...

> I believe that you'll find quite a few of the Rebel Angels have
> > experimented with accentuals, syllabics, alliterative verse, and so
forth.

Actually, although it's a completely separate issue, the (mis)appropriation
by the Neoformalists of the term "Rebel Angels" for their anthology really
does get right up my nose.  Mostly because I think of it as the title of a
novel by Robertson Davies.  Other reasons as well ...

> Exactly.  Gioia, whose views are more catholic than many NF's, should
hardly be
> made the target here, though some NF's (like Timothy Steele in his
critical
> work) seem to fit this description to some degree.

Well ... just to dig myself in even deeper.  I object both to Gioia's theory
(which seems to me trivial, outdated, and only vaguely aware of what's been
said and done) and his practice, which is all-too-often Auden-and-water.

To be slightly more positive, the closest parallel to Gioia on this side of
the Pond (as both theorist and practitioner of formal verse) would be James
Fenton.  The contrasts are more instructive than the parallels.

Robin

*** Why the Beowulf/Langland default link drives me screaming up the wall is
that there *is* a direct filiation between Beowulf and 14thC poetry -- but
it runs to the Gawain poet.  Langland is coming from somewhere else -- 
possibly strong-stressed AS prose as in Aelfric and Wulfstan.

K, that's arguable, but lumping Beowulf and PP together is simply lazy.  At
best.

Having missed the discussion on this list on Anglo-Saxon verse, I'm not sure
whether this has been mentioned, but the obvious case for a full-scale
attempt to write "classical" AS alliterative stress metre in the 20thC is
Auden's _Age of Anxiety_ -- a catastrophic failure.  More interesting is
Pound in "The Seafarer" 'translation' and Canto 1.  Most interesting of all,
and the only one who (IMHO) brought it off is Francis Berry in "Morant Bay"
and "Illness and Ghosts in the West Settlement".  'Valsey', for a short poem
to test this.

My tuppence worth ...

R2





From bobgrumman  Tue Sep 23 16:03:37 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:03:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F6FFB0A.12279.15B079@localhost>
Message-ID: <010b01c3820d$c7655b00$806efea9@j1c1k6>

> > I then give poetry a definition that permits
> > both formal and free verse to qualify as poetry.  I don't see where
> > I'm confused. It's like saying candies and sweets are the same thing,
> > and that chocolates and gumdrops are two different kinds of candy--or
> > sweet.
> 
> No, you didn't. You said that sweets are a different game than 
> candies -- and NOW you say they are the same game. That's where the 
> confusion enters: in your simultaneous claim of both.

poetry and verse are the same

candies and sweets are the same

that's one parallel

free verse and formal verse are two different kinds of poetry OR verse

gumdrops and chocolates are two different kinds of candies OR sweets

that is a second parallel

Period.

--Bob G.





From bobgrumman  Tue Sep 23 16:31:28 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:31:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F6F3B21.5919.247506F@localhost> <011901c38164$2e5fd150$448c8051@MyPC> <01d401c381ba$72ec6120$1809fea9@j1c1k6> <024201c381f3$5ff4f170$448c8051@MyPC>
Message-ID: <01a201c38211$ab38ff00$806efea9@j1c1k6>

> Bob Grumman wrote:
>
> > But for me "verse" and "poetry" are names for the same set.
>
> Um ...  Would go back to (at least) Aristotle's _Poetics_, where he said
not
> all verse is poetry, and not all poetry is in verse.

Aristotle said a lot of things.

> ("It's about the metaphor, stupid!" Aristotle said)
>
> > > If "free verse" is a distinct set from "verse", there's a dot where
> > "verse",
> > > "free verse", and "poetry" intersect.
> >
> > What happened to "formal verse."  I fear I couldn't follow any of this.
> >
> > --Bob G.
>
> Sorry -- in this context, verse = formal verse

In your context, then.  In mine, verse equals poetry, as I stated.  But all
that is irrelevant to the insane argument Marcus has gotten going.  Let's
forget "verse."  That done, I say that free verse and formal verse are two
games that poets can play as poets just as baseball and ice hockey are two
sports athletes can play as athletes.  Getting back to the designated
hitter, this means that free verse is not a part of formal verse the way a
designated hitter is part of baseball; or, free verse is a game in the
class, poetry, that formal verse is also a game whereas the designated
hitter is an element in baseball, which is a game in the class athletic
competitions.

>     Not all poetry is written in verse

I agree if by "verse" you mean "formal verse."

>     Not all written in verse is poetry

If it's lineated, it is--unless you want subjectively to declare only verse
you like to be poetry.


> But "formal verse" is itself pretty contentious.

"Poetry" is, too.  In my definition of it all poetry contains flow-breaks,
and everything written with flow-breaks is poetry.  Meter has nothing to do
with it.



There are (in English
> speech) five possible metrical systems (metrics):
>
>     Syllable-Accent
>     Stress
>     Syllabic
>     Qualitative
>     Dipodic

How about lettric--every line has a certain pre-ordained amount of letters?
Also spatial: every line has a certain pre-ordained amount of space on the
page.  There are lots of other ways of deciding where to lineated on the
basis of a count.

> [Look, I'm not *just* being pedantic in including Dipodic -- try to scan
> John Crowe Ransom any other way and you're up shit creek.  Captain
Carpenter
> rode a Dipodic horse.]

It depends on who's making up the poetics.  For me, there's only one
metrical system--with two subsets, two-beat and three-beat.  Not that I
don't believe the other things you list exist, just that I'd categorize them
differently from you.

> Each metric can have several derived metres.  Thus, iambic pentameter is a
> metrical subset of the set Syllable-Accent.
>
> What bugs me about the American NeoFormalist movement (Dana Gioia in
> particular) is their reduction of "formal verse" to a narrow subset of
> syllable-accent metric.
>
> [Singular/Plural common-noun confusion in the above sentence deliberate,
> just in case ...]
>
> Have to say, I'm surprised that Bob, as a good Shakespearean, didn't go
for
> the jugular and challenge me to couch this (hm ... does the term "crap"
> spring to mind?  <g>) in terms of Ramistic logic.  I think I might just be
> able to make a plausible fist of this, and even (rhyzone, anyone?) link it
> to post-modernism.
>
> {OK, so Ramus doesn't occur in Shakespeare, unless Marlowe wrote him, but
> gets topped in _The Massacre at Paris_.  Same time frame but.  So sue.}
>
> It's not come up (explicitly) but the killer isn't mapping
> Aristotelian/Modern Formal/Ramist logics one on the other -- easy peasy --
> but mapping a bipolar logic (all of those three) onto a multivalent logic.
> Doesn't commute either way.
>
> Count Robin Korzybski

I'm not following you very well, I fear.  But how can you expect me to,
knowing that I've been going up against a world-class logician like Marcus?

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Tue Sep 23 16:47:11 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:47:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A083@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <01d301c38213$dd6fff80$806efea9@j1c1k6>

> >>>>>What bugs me about the American NeoFormalist movement (Dana
> Gioia in
> > particular) is their reduction of "formal verse" to a narrow subset of
> > syllable-accent metric.
> >
> Not sure who else might be included in that "their," Robin, but I don't
> think it's accurate about Gioia.  See, for example, his online essay on
> accentual verse:
>
> http://www.danagioia.net/essays/eaccentual.htm
>
> And perhaps you missed some recent chat in this very space about Anglo
Saxon
> verse?  I believe that you'll find quite a few of the Rebel Angels have
> experimented with accentuals, syllabics, alliterative verse, and so forth.
>
> Always good to be reminded, though, that there are forms and there are
> forms.  Yes, indeed.

My own current poetry, for instance, is in many ways more formal than any
neoformalist poetry, requiring, as it does, all the elements of traditional
long division: a divisor, dividend, quotient, "dividend shed," as I call it,
product of quotient and divisor, line under that product, and remainder.
That's why I do not call traditional formal poetry "formal: in my serious
attempts to categorize poetries, but "songmode."

And there really are poets making poems each of whose lines takes up a
certain amount of space, or has a certain amount of letters, or ten spaces
per line, etc.  One should no more automatically reject such practices than
one should automatically reject syllabics.

--Bob G.




From robin.hamilton2  Tue Sep 23 16:57:51 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:57:51 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F6F3B21.5919.247506F@localhost> <011901c38164$2e5fd150$448c8051@MyPC> <01d401c381ba$72ec6120$1809fea9@j1c1k6> <024201c381f3$5ff4f170$448c8051@MyPC> <01a201c38211$ab38ff00$806efea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <031c01c38215$5a5a0940$448c8051@MyPC>

Bob:

> > Um ...  Would go back to (at least) Aristotle's _Poetics_, where he said
> not
> > all verse is poetry, and not all poetry is in verse.
>
> Aristotle said a lot of things.

Oh sure -- by raising Aristotle, I'm simply suggesting that the poetry/verse
distinction can be traced way back, and it's not simply trivial.  In a
fashion, it reappears in Sidney's "Apology".

> > Sorry -- in this context, verse = formal verse
>
> In your context, then.  In mine, verse equals poetry, as I stated.

I think this is pretty fundamental, and colours what's to come.  Everything
aside, I *would* draw a distinction between "verse" and "poetry" -- 
sometimes a formal one, sometimes an evaluative one.  The terms shift, but
at the bottom (for me) they are [usefully] distinct.

[SNIP]

> There are (in English
> > speech) five possible metrical systems (metrics):
> >
> >     Syllable-Accent
> >     Stress
> >     Syllabic
> >     Qualitative
> >     Dipodic
>
> How about lettric--every line has a certain pre-ordained amount of
letters?
> Also spatial: every line has a certain pre-ordained amount of space on the
> page.  There are lots of other ways of deciding where to lineated on the
> basis of a count.

I think part of this turns on a written/spoken distinction.  I'm still
trying to get my head round this, in the wake of reading (still in process)
Rosemary Huisman's /the written poem/.  I don't agree with a lot of what she
says, but it is making me (re)think.

But to come back to the five metrics I listed -- sure, you can play
mind-games and create an infinite number in English, and there are crossover
areas like concrete poetry, but *observationally* there are those five.
They're not made-up -- it's a case of bite-it-and-see.

> > [Look, I'm not *just* being pedantic in including Dipodic -- try to scan
> > John Crowe Ransom any other way and you're up shit creek.  Captain
> Carpenter
> > rode a Dipodic horse.]
>
> It depends on who's making up the poetics.  For me, there's only one
> metrical system--with two subsets, two-beat and three-beat.  Not that I
> don't believe the other things you list exist, just that I'd categorize
them
> differently from you.

I suspect our split is deeper than just a terminological one, but I'm going
to have to take a pace back here.

> > Count Robin Korzybski
>
> I'm not following you very well, I fear.  But how can you expect me to,
> knowing that I've been going up against a world-class logician like
Marcus?

<g>  Join the club.

Sorry, Bob, not really an adequate reply to the issues you raise, but I'm
running out of brain at this moment.

Robin





From marcus  Tue Sep 23 17:01:14 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:01:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
In-Reply-To: <010b01c3820d$c7655b00$806efea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3F707C5A.18379.AD15B0@localhost>

> > > I then give poetry a definition that permits
> > > both formal and free verse to qualify as poetry.  I don't see
> > > where I'm confused. It's like saying candies and sweets are the
> > > same thing, and that chocolates and gumdrops are two different
> > > kinds of candy--or sweet.

> > No, you didn't. You said that sweets are a different game than
> > candies -- and NOW you say they are the same game. That's where the
> > confusion enters: in your simultaneous claim of both.
 
> poetry and verse are the same
> candies and sweets are the same
> that's one parallel
> free verse and formal verse are two different kinds of poetry OR verse
> gumdrops and chocolates are two different kinds of candies OR sweets
> that is a second parallel
> Period.

In other words, you're abandoning your claim that free verse is a 
different game -- okay, that's fine -- but that's different than what 
you said when you said free verse was a different game.

Do you see that you cannot any longer reasonably hold that free verse 
is a different game if you say that verse and poetry are the same and 
free verse is verse and therefore is poetry. You have no grounds on 
which to distinguish free verse from poetry or verse; no grounds on 
which to claim it is a different game.

Of course, you can hold both unreasonably, but you can't hold 
contradictory notions and claim you're being reasonable, too.







From anny.ballardini  Tue Sep 23 17:51:17 2003
From: anny.ballardini (anny.ballardini at tin.it)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 23:51:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
In-Reply-To: <3F707C5A.18379.AD15B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F7008CF00000F58@ims3d.cp.tin.it>

This is one of the easiest things in the world, just follow me Marcus:
If I say that something is black, this is reasonable, if I say that it is
white, it is reasonable, too. It means that the object is both, black and
white, they are two opposite colors - contradictory notions, and still my
statement is made reasonable in the moment in which I show you the two opposite
aspects of the same object. 
Now you can put instead of white: free verse, and in the place of black:
verse, and there you have the object in its completeness which builds up
to our poetry. 


>From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>> > > I then give poetry a definition that permits
>> > > both formal and free verse to qualify as poetry.  I don't see
>> > > where I'm confused. It's like saying candies and sweets are the
>> > > same thing, and that chocolates and gumdrops are two different
>> > > kinds of candy--or sweet.
>
>> > No, you didn't. You said that sweets are a different game than
>> > candies -- and NOW you say they are the same game. That's where the
>> > confusion enters: in your simultaneous claim of both.
> 
>> poetry and verse are the same
>> candies and sweets are the same
>> that's one parallel
>> free verse and formal verse are two different kinds of poetry OR verse
>> gumdrops and chocolates are two different kinds of candies OR sweets
>> that is a second parallel
>> Period.
>
>In other words, you're abandoning your claim that free verse is a 
>different game -- okay, that's fine -- but that's different than what 
>you said when you said free verse was a different game.
>
>Do you see that you cannot any longer reasonably hold that free verse 
>is a different game if you say that verse and poetry are the same and 
>free verse is verse and therefore is poetry. You have no grounds on 
>which to distinguish free verse from poetry or verse; no grounds on 
>which to claim it is a different game.
>
>Of course, you can hold both unreasonably, but you can't hold 
>contradictory notions and claim you're being reasonable, too.
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






From jvcervantes  Tue Sep 23 18:27:03 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:27:03 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F7008CF00000F58@ims3d.cp.tin.it>
Message-ID: <3F70C8B6.6E3AAE1E@earthlink.net>

Good.  Just don't go ying/yang with this.

- Jim

anny.ballardini at tin.it wrote:
> 
> This is one of the easiest things in the world, just follow me Marcus:
> If I say that something is black, this is reasonable, if I say that it is
> white, it is reasonable, too. It means that the object is both, black and
> white, they are two opposite colors - contradictory notions, and still my
> statement is made reasonable in the moment in which I show you the two opposite
> aspects of the same object.
> Now you can put instead of white: free verse, and in the place of black:
> verse, and there you have the object in its completeness which builds up
> to our poetry.
> 
> >From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
> >
> >> > > I then give poetry a definition that permits
> >> > > both formal and free verse to qualify as poetry.  I don't see
> >> > > where I'm confused. It's like saying candies and sweets are the
> >> > > same thing, and that chocolates and gumdrops are two different
> >> > > kinds of candy--or sweet.
> >
> >> > No, you didn't. You said that sweets are a different game than
> >> > candies -- and NOW you say they are the same game. That's where the
> >> > confusion enters: in your simultaneous claim of both.
> >
> >> poetry and verse are the same
> >> candies and sweets are the same
> >> that's one parallel
> >> free verse and formal verse are two different kinds of poetry OR verse
> >> gumdrops and chocolates are two different kinds of candies OR sweets
> >> that is a second parallel
> >> Period.
> >
> >In other words, you're abandoning your claim that free verse is a
> >different game -- okay, that's fine -- but that's different than what
> >you said when you said free verse was a different game.
> >
> >Do you see that you cannot any longer reasonably hold that free verse
> >is a different game if you say that verse and poetry are the same and
> >free verse is verse and therefore is poetry. You have no grounds on
> >which to distinguish free verse from poetry or verse; no grounds on
> >which to claim it is a different game.
> >
> >Of course, you can hold both unreasonably, but you can't hold
> >contradictory notions and claim you're being reasonable, too.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman  Tue Sep 23 20:01:40 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:01:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F707C5A.18379.AD15B0@localhost>
Message-ID: <004901c3822f$08432dc0$2ba7fea9@j1c1k6>

> > poetry and verse are the same
> > candies and sweets are the same
> > that's one parallel
> > free verse and formal verse are two different kinds of poetry OR verse
> > gumdrops and chocolates are two different kinds of candies OR sweets
> > that is a second parallel
> > Period.
>
> In other words, you're abandoning your claim that free verse is a
> different game -- okay, that's fine -- but that's different than what
> you said when you said free verse was a different game.

Right, Marcus.  "Free verse and formal verse are two different kinds of
poetry" is not the same as saying "free verse and formal verse are two
different games."

> Do you see that you cannot any longer reasonably hold that free verse
> is a different game if you say that verse

by which I do NOT mean "formal verse"

and poetry are the same and
> free verse is verse and therefore is poetry.

I'm saying there is such a thing as poetry, and formal verse and free verse
are two not mutually-exclusive kinds of poetry.  I also say that I use the
term, "verse," to mean all the kinds of poetry there are.

--Bob G.







From bobgrumman  Tue Sep 23 20:07:51 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:07:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F6F3B21.5919.247506F@localhost> <011901c38164$2e5fd150$448c8051@MyPC> <01d401c381ba$72ec6120$1809fea9@j1c1k6> <024201c381f3$5ff4f170$448c8051@MyPC> <01a201c38211$ab38ff00$806efea9@j1c1k6> <031c01c38215$5a5a0940$448c8051@MyPC>
Message-ID: <004f01c3822f$e5bc42e0$2ba7fea9@j1c1k6>

> > Aristotle said a lot of things.
>
> Oh sure -- by raising Aristotle, I'm simply suggesting that the
poetry/verse
> distinction can be traced way back, and it's not simply trivial.  In a
> fashion, it reappears in Sidney's "Apology".
>
> > > Sorry -- in this context, verse = formal verse
> >
> > In your context, then.  In mine, verse equals poetry, as I stated.
>
> I think this is pretty fundamental, and colours what's to come.
Everything
> aside, I *would* draw a distinction between "verse" and "poetry" --
> sometimes a formal one, sometimes an evaluative one.  The terms shift, but
> at the bottom (for me) they are [usefully] distinct.
>
> [SNIP]
>
> > There are (in English
> > > speech) five possible metrical systems (metrics):
> > >
> > >     Syllable-Accent
> > >     Stress
> > >     Syllabic
> > >     Qualitative
> > >     Dipodic
> >
> > How about lettric--every line has a certain pre-ordained amount of
> letters?
> > Also spatial: every line has a certain pre-ordained amount of space on
the
> > page.  There are lots of other ways of deciding where to lineated on the
> > basis of a count.
>
> I think part of this turns on a written/spoken distinction.  I'm still
> trying to get my head round this, in the wake of reading (still in
process)
> Rosemary Huisman's /the written poem/.  I don't agree with a lot of what
she
> says, but it is making me (re)think.
>
> But to come back to the five metrics I listed -- sure, you can play
> mind-games and create an infinite number in English, and there are
crossover
> areas like concrete poetry, but *observationally* there are those five.
> They're not made-up -- it's a case of bite-it-and-see.
>
> > > [Look, I'm not *just* being pedantic in including Dipodic -- try to
scan
> > > John Crowe Ransom any other way and you're up shit creek.  Captain
> > Carpenter
> > > rode a Dipodic horse.]
> >
> > It depends on who's making up the poetics.  For me, there's only one
> > metrical system--with two subsets, two-beat and three-beat.  Not that I
> > don't believe IN the other things you list exist, just that I'd
categorize
> them
> > differently from you.
>
> I suspect our split is deeper than just a terminological one,

Probably

> but I'm going
> to have to take a pace back here.

> > > Count Robin Korzybski
> >
> > I'm not following you very well, I fear.  But how can you expect me to,
> > knowing that I've been going up against a world-class logician like
> Marcus?
>
> <g>  Join the club.
>
> Sorry, Bob, not really an adequate reply to the issues you raise,

Nor mine to you.

> but I'm running out of brain at this moment.
>
> Robin

Ditto, partly because I'm off on a trip tomorrow, and always have neuron
problems when that happens.  Probably won't have access to the Internet for
a week, so take your time continuing, if you feel like continuing.

--Bob G.




From robin.hamilton2  Tue Sep 23 20:59:07 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 01:59:07 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F6F3B21.5919.247506F@localhost> <011901c38164$2e5fd150$448c8051@MyPC> <01d401c381ba$72ec6120$1809fea9@j1c1k6> <024201c381f3$5ff4f170$448c8051@MyPC> <01a201c38211$ab38ff00$806efea9@j1c1k6> <031c01c38215$5a5a0940$448c8051@MyPC> <004f01c3822f$e5bc42e0$2ba7fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <03ba01c38237$0f5337b0$448c8051@MyPC>

> > Sorry, Bob, not really an adequate reply to the issues you raise,
>
> Nor mine to you.
>
> > but I'm running out of brain at this moment.
> >
> > Robin
>
> Ditto, partly because I'm off on a trip tomorrow, and always have neuron
> problems when that happens.  Probably won't have access to the Internet
for
> a week, so take your time continuing, if you feel like continuing.

K -- if my head's still around.  <g>

Possibly not the most reassuring item of information if you're off on a
trip, but just a little ago (in the wake of getting an email accusing me of
insensitivity over the notional fifty USAmericans killed by Hurricane
Isabel) I *finally* went to the trouble of checking-out the rate of
road-traffic deaths in the US.  It seems to have stabilised around roughly
40,000 a year, down from a peak of 50,000 ten or twenty years ago.

100 a day.  Boy!

(Per head of the population [and other related parameters], you're slightly
over twice as likely to die in a car crash in the US as in the UK.)

Robin





From JforJames  Tue Sep 23 22:44:51 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:44:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
Message-ID: <1db.114f8514.2ca25f23@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/23/03 4:58:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes:

> go back to (at least) Aristotle's _Poetics_, where he said
>  > not
>  > > all verse is poetry, and not all poetry is in verse.
>  >
>  > Aristotle said a lot of things.
>  
>  Oh sure -- by raising Aristotle, I'm simply suggesting that the 
poetry/verse
>  distinction can be traced way back, and it's not simply trivial.  In a
>  fashion, it reappears in Sidney's "Apology".
>  
>  > > Sorry -- in this context, verse = formal verse
>  >
>  > In your context, then.  In mine, verse equals poetry, as I stated.
>  
>  I think this is pretty fundamental, and colours what's to come.  Everything
>  aside, I *would* draw a distinction between "verse" and "poetry" -- 
>  sometimes a formal one, sometimes an evaluative one.  The terms shift, but
>  at the bottom (for me) they are [usefully] distinct.
>  
Yes, dialog is only possible if we go along with the generally accepted 
notions of what words/terms mean. "Formal verse" means what gets 
practiced based on an established (rather arbitrary, randomly developed
and certainly convention-bound) set of models (that one could look up 
in any of several standard references, and you'd have to go to 200 others
to deal with formal verse in Chinese, Hawaiian, Bengali, etc.). There 
is no ontological basis for a sonnet having 14 lines rather than 12.  And 
the various meters are part language/tongue-bound and part conventional, 
but these elements of formal verse don't and never will determine what 
"poetry" is. There are not "hierarchies" in evolution; only chance variation 
and the luck of succession...
I read Aristotle (the great organizer) as speaking to the notion that verse 
is 
definable; it can, in any given age or cultural situation, be catalogued and 
fixed,  
but the essence of "poetry" is beyond that. (Plato's frustration with poetry 
was perhaps driven by the fact that there wasn't a pure form he could fit it 
to.)
And if one looks at the many lovely and odd notions of what poetry is, one 
sees how seldom "verse" comes into play.
Finnegan
 



From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep 24 00:02:09 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:02:09 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <1db.114f8514.2ca25f23@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c38250$a07e1d40$8ddd8051@MyPC>

Briefly, as it's much too late here with me ...

(And I pretty much disagree with everything Finnegan says here except his
last sentence. <g>)

But one point ...

> "Formal verse" means what gets
> practiced based on an established (rather arbitrary, randomly developed
> and certainly convention-bound) set of models

The degree of "arbitrariness" is open to argument.  How long is a line in
English (let's stick to English for the moment)?  It's been argued that a
ten-syllable line is "natural".  Maybe so, maybe not, but go below, and
virtually any eight-syllable line screams, "Look at me, I'm in metre!"
Jumping over the 12 syllable alexandrine for the nonce, when you hit seven
feet, you're liable to end up with your couplets breaking into 4/3 abcb
quatrains -- this goes behind the catastrophe of Tennyson's "Locksley Hall"
back as far as at least the Elizabethans.

It can be done -- Wyatt succeeded, and Gascoigne, and at the same time as
Tennyson, Browning in "A Tocatto", and later Auden in his homage to LH, "Get
there if you can ..." -- but it's bloody difficult to bring off.

So beyond "mere" convention, there seems to be a limit to how long a line in
English verse can be and still retain its identity *as* a single line.

Bite it and see -- convention or not, that's the way it goes.

So to cut to ...

> There
> is no ontological basis for a sonnet having 14 lines rather than 12.

On the face of it, sure -- why fourteen lines rather than 13 or 15 or
whatever?

In one sense, the sonnet is a classic case of a *totally* conventional form.

But if it's so purely conventional, how come the massed creative genius
since it first appeared in Italy in the twelfth century ain't come up with
anything better?

To simplify matters (or load the dice or put the goalposts where I want
them), dumping the Petrarchan and Spenserian and whatever variants and
sticking to the "English" sonnet (first written by Surrey, much as it irks
me to give that lame-brained [expletive deleted] turd credit for anything)
what do you have?  Three quatrains and a couplet.

Right -- the two "natural" elements of English stanzaic form.  Drop to 12
lines, and you have three quatrains.  So why stop at +three+ quatrains?
Increase to 16 and again ...  So there's a case to be made for the
"conventional" 14 line "English" sonnet as being, for whatever reasons,
about the *only* closed form natural to English.  Quatrains can go on and on
forever, same with blank verse iambic or couplets.  No built-in closure.
Start a sonnet and you know when you're going to have to stop.  14 lines
down the line.

This is simply the way IT IS.  You might not like it, but for god's sake,
cite me *any* other closed form which was first written in English in the
early 16thC and still is written today.  I don't think I really care whether
or not we decide that the sonnet is natural or artificial, but whatever,
it's sure as hell not simply, as Finnegan seems to be implying, "simply
conventional".

Ooof.  Am I still making any sense?  My irritation with what Finnegan seems
to be saying is that I really think that to say, "It's all convention,"
ignores certain aspects of reality which are hard-wired as part of the
English language.  And some of these -- the ten-syllable default line and
the quatrain/couplet structure -- are built-into the English sonnet form.

Hard cheese.  That's how it goes.  You don't have to like it -- I'm not even
sure *I* like it -- but in five hundred ever-loving years, no one has come
up with anything better.  Or other.

Says *something*, that.

Robin

> And
> the various meters are part language/tongue-bound and part conventional,
> but these elements of formal verse don't and never will determine what
> "poetry" is. There are not "hierarchies" in evolution; only chance
variation
> and the luck of succession...
> I read Aristotle (the great organizer) as speaking to the notion that
verse
> is
> definable; it can, in any given age or cultural situation, be catalogued
and
> fixed,
> but the essence of "poetry" is beyond that. (Plato's frustration with
poetry
> was perhaps driven by the fact that there wasn't a pure form he could fit
it
> to.)
> And if one looks at the many lovely and odd notions of what poetry is, one
> sees how seldom "verse" comes into play.
> Finnegan
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From bobgrumman  Wed Sep 24 05:04:01 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:04:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F6F3B21.5919.247506F@localhost> <011901c38164$2e5fd150$448c8051@MyPC> <01d401c381ba$72ec6120$1809fea9@j1c1k6> <024201c381f3$5ff4f170$448c8051@MyPC> <01a201c38211$ab38ff00$806efea9@j1c1k6> <031c01c38215$5a5a0940$448c8051@MyPC> <004f01c3822f$e5bc42e0$2ba7fea9@j1c1k6> <03ba01c38237$0f5337b0$448c8051@MyPC>
Message-ID: <013001c3827a$cce53420$bc51fea9@j1c1k6>

Like I've always said, we ought to outlaw automobiles.

--Bob G.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Blurt?


> > > Sorry, Bob, not really an adequate reply to the issues you raise,
> >
> > Nor mine to you.
> >
> > > but I'm running out of brain at this moment.
> > >
> > > Robin
> >
> > Ditto, partly because I'm off on a trip tomorrow, and always have neuron
> > problems when that happens.  Probably won't have access to the Internet
> for
> > a week, so take your time continuing, if you feel like continuing.
>
> K -- if my head's still around.  <g>
>
> Possibly not the most reassuring item of information if you're off on a
> trip, but just a little ago (in the wake of getting an email accusing me
of
> insensitivity over the notional fifty USAmericans killed by Hurricane
> Isabel) I *finally* went to the trouble of checking-out the rate of
> road-traffic deaths in the US.  It seems to have stabilised around roughly
> 40,000 a year, down from a peak of 50,000 ten or twenty years ago.
>
> 100 a day.  Boy!
>
> (Per head of the population [and other related parameters], you're
slightly
> over twice as likely to die in a car crash in the US as in the UK.)
>
> Robin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman  Wed Sep 24 05:08:45 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 05:08:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <1db.114f8514.2ca25f23@aol.com>
Message-ID: <016901c3827b$75fcdcc0$bc51fea9@j1c1k6>

> Yes, dialog is only possible if we go along with the generally accepted
> notions of what words/terms mean.

Wrong.  Dialogue only requires that the people involved define their terms.


"Formal verse" means what gets
> practiced based on an established (rather arbitrary, randomly developed
> and certainly convention-bound) set of models (that one could look up
> in any of several standard references, and you'd have to go to 200 others
> to deal with formal verse in Chinese, Hawaiian, Bengali, etc.). There
> is no ontological basis for a sonnet having 14 lines rather than 12.  And
> the various meters are part language/tongue-bound and part conventional,
> but these elements of formal verse don't and never will determine what
> "poetry" is. There are not "hierarchies" in evolution; only chance
variation
> and the luck of succession...
> I read Aristotle (the great organizer) as speaking to the notion that
verse
> is
> definable; it can, in any given age or cultural situation, be catalogued
and
> fixed,
> but the essence of "poetry" is beyond that.

The essence of everything is beyond definition, but everything real is
sufficiently definable.

(Plato's frustration with poetry
> was perhaps driven by the fact that there wasn't a pure form he could fit
it
> to.)
> And if one looks at the many lovely and odd notions of what poetry is, one
> sees how seldom "verse" comes into play.
> Finnegan


I think a main reason I want to use "verse" and "poetry" interchangeably is
that I can't think of any synonym for poetry if I can't use "verse."

--Bob G.




From marcus  Wed Sep 24 07:11:45 2003
From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:11:45 GMT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
Message-ID: <200309241050.h8OAoJST005361@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

> ... If I say that something is black, this is reasonable, if I say that it is
> white, it is reasonable, too. It means that the object is both, black and
> white, they are two opposite colors - contradictory notions, and still my
> statement is made reasonable in the moment in which I show you the two 
> opposite aspects of the same object. 

If you have an object in front of you that is black and white, and you tell me 
it is black, and I refer to the black object in front of you later, and you 
tell me it is white, and I object that you said it was black, and you say that 
now it is white, so I refer to the white object in front of you and you object 
and say it is black ... well, you can see how that would engender frustration, 
I hope, and a good deal of suspicion. Unfortunately, that's the sort of thing 
that Bob Grumman is doing as he tries to explain what free verse is.






From marcus  Wed Sep 24 07:12:41 2003
From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:12:41 GMT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
Message-ID: <200309241051.h8OApGST005367@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

> ... If I say that something is black, this is reasonable, if I say that it is
> white, it is reasonable, too. It means that the object is both, black and
> white, they are two opposite colors - contradictory notions, and still my
> statement is made reasonable in the moment in which I show you the two 
> opposite aspects of the same object. 

If you have an object in front of you that is black and white, and you tell me 
it is black, and I refer to the black object in front of you later, and you 
tell me it is white, and I object that you said it was black, and you say that 
now it is white, so I refer to the white object in front of you and you object 
and say it is black ... well, you can see how that would engender frustration, 
I hope, and a good deal of suspicion. Unfortunately, that's the sort of thing 
that Bob Grumman is doing as he tries to explain what free verse is.






From marcus  Wed Sep 24 07:22:58 2003
From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:22:58 GMT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
Message-ID: <200309241101.h8OB1WST005450@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

> &gt; &gt; poetry and verse are the same
> &gt; &gt; candies and sweets are the same
> &gt; &gt; that's one parallel
> &gt; &gt; free verse and formal verse are two different kinds of poetry OR 
verse
> &gt; &gt; gumdrops and chocolates are two different kinds of candies OR sweets
> &gt; &gt; that is a second parallel
> &gt; &gt; Period.
> &gt;
> &gt; In other words, you're abandoning your claim that free verse is a
> &gt; different game -- okay, that's fine -- but that's different than what
> &gt; you said when you said free verse was a different game.
 
> ... "Free verse and formal verse are two different kinds of
> poetry" is not the same as saying "free verse and formal verse are two
> different games."

But you said they were. And then you said they weren't. And therein lies the 
confusion, because first you're claiming one thing, then an incompatible thing, 
and you seem to want to hold them both at the same time, even yet. You're the 
one who said "free verse is a different game", not me; now you're saying that 
it's not a different game. You can't reasonably have it both ways. 

> &gt; Do you see that you cannot any longer reasonably hold that free verse
> &gt; is a different game if you say that verse
> 
> by which I do NOT mean "formal verse"

No, no, of course not, Bob -- you mean "all verse, all poetry"; I understand 
what you seem to want to mean. But that's just the problem, you see? If 
by "verse" you mean "all verse, all poetry", AND by "free verse" you mean to 
indicate a subset of "all verse, all poetry", you simply cannot reasonably say 
that "free verse is a different game" from "all verse, all poetry". It doesn't 
make sense, for if you hold that "all verse, all poetry" is the same game, then 
you can't reasonably say that "free verse", a subset of "all verse, all poetry" 
is "a different game".

> I'm saying there is such a thing as poetry, and formal verse and free verse
> are two not mutually-exclusive kinds of poetry.  I also say that I use the
> term, "verse," to mean all the kinds of poetry there are.

But if you distinguish between "formal verse" and "free verse" within "poetry" 
tthen you still have a difficult problem because you hold that "verse" 
and "poetry" are "the same", that is, identical. So how do you differentiate 
between two things that are identical? You cannot reasonably say that these 
things are identical and different at the same time -- and yet you are 
insisting that these identical things are different things. It isn't 
reasonable. It may be your view, and you're certainly entitled to it, but it 
isn't reasonable to say that identical things are different things.








From anny.ballardini  Wed Sep 24 08:59:15 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:59:15 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <200309241101.h8OB1WST005450@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <001101c3829b$aa98fac0$b4737450@anny>

Yes, Marcus, one can say that identical things are different and this is the
most enlightening spark in poetry. To see the same identical object under
not only a different light, but different lights. (I missed many
messages -due also to a momentary failure of my server and to some
extra-work that came in- so) I did not follow exactly each step you are
criticizing in Bob G. but I am picking up directly from your last statement.
And nourishing this contreversial tendency of yours which is one of your
strongest attitudes, and which in its own way is interesting.
To give you an example, there was a painter (don't ask me who in this
moment) who started painting only in one color, or blue, or red, or yellow,
painting after painting. And I also did it for a short time. That is where
you understand the different shades of the same color, and how to mix colors
so that the basic one does not lose its intensity. It might be a good
exercise to write poem after poem on the same object, not in order to know
the object, but to know how to write.
Anny

From: <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> > &gt; &gt; poetry and verse are the same
> > &gt; &gt; candies and sweets are the same
> > &gt; &gt; that's one parallel
> > &gt; &gt; free verse and formal verse are two different kinds of poetry
OR
> verse
> > &gt; &gt; gumdrops and chocolates are two different kinds of candies OR
sweets
> > &gt; &gt; that is a second parallel
> > &gt; &gt; Period.
> > &gt;
> > &gt; In other words, you're abandoning your claim that free verse is a
> > &gt; different game -- okay, that's fine -- but that's different than
what
> > &gt; you said when you said free verse was a different game.
>
> > ... "Free verse and formal verse are two different kinds of
> > poetry" is not the same as saying "free verse and formal verse are two
> > different games."
>
> But you said they were. And then you said they weren't. And therein lies
the
> confusion, because first you're claiming one thing, then an incompatible
thing,
> and you seem to want to hold them both at the same time, even yet. You're
the
> one who said "free verse is a different game", not me; now you're saying
that
> it's not a different game. You can't reasonably have it both ways.
>
> > &gt; Do you see that you cannot any longer reasonably hold that free
verse
> > &gt; is a different game if you say that verse
> >
> > by which I do NOT mean "formal verse"
>
> No, no, of course not, Bob -- you mean "all verse, all poetry"; I
understand
> what you seem to want to mean. But that's just the problem, you see? If
> by "verse" you mean "all verse, all poetry", AND by "free verse" you mean
to
> indicate a subset of "all verse, all poetry", you simply cannot reasonably
say
> that "free verse is a different game" from "all verse, all poetry". It
doesn't
> make sense, for if you hold that "all verse, all poetry" is the same game,
then
> you can't reasonably say that "free verse", a subset of "all verse, all
poetry"
> is "a different game".
>
> > I'm saying there is such a thing as poetry, and formal verse and free
verse
> > are two not mutually-exclusive kinds of poetry.  I also say that I use
the
> > term, "verse," to mean all the kinds of poetry there are.
>
> But if you distinguish between "formal verse" and "free verse" within
"poetry"
> tthen you still have a difficult problem because you hold that "verse"
> and "poetry" are "the same", that is, identical. So how do you
differentiate
> between two things that are identical? You cannot reasonably say that
these
> things are identical and different at the same time -- and yet you are
> insisting that these identical things are different things. It isn't
> reasonable. It may be your view, and you're certainly entitled to it, but
it
> isn't reasonable to say that identical things are different things.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 24 10:54:40 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:54:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <172.201bf3d2.2ca30a30@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/23/2003 3:00:57 PM Central Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> 
> 
> Oh, god ...  Leave aside that that absolutely *lovely* elide between Beowulf
> and Langland (which manages to conflate and confuse strict AS alliterative
> metre with 14thC poetry via ignoring Aelfric and Wulfstan but hey, no one's
> perfect ...) -- "the meter of most nursery rhymes and playground chants as
> well as many folk ballads" ISN'T sodding stress metre, it's dipodic.  That's
> the whole screaming POINT!!!  ***
> 
> <sigh>
> 
> Both syllable-accent and stress metres pattern on binary -- dipodic metre
> patterns on a (perceived, consciously or not) triad:  unstressed, weak
> stressed, strong stressed.
> 
>     Humpty dumpty sat on the wall,
>     Humpty dumpty had a great fall.

Dipodic meters are double-duple, not triadic.  A trochaic-based dipodic meter 
 combines two feet and is counterpointed to uu/u; similarly, iambic is 
counterpointed to u/uu.  For good examples, W. S. Gilbert can't be beat:
               /                     /                  /                     
/
If you'll give me your attention I will tell you who I am:
I'm a genuine philanthropist--all other kinds or sham.

or
     /                  /                /                     /
I am the very model of a modern major general;
I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral.

The former springs trochaic into dipodic; the latter, iambic.

Many long iambic and trochaic lines ("Locksley Hall" for example) exhibit 
this kind of rhythmical counterpoint, and Kipling and other Victorians make 
extensive use of it.  English dipodics are generally accentual-syllabic, not 
accentual.
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From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 24 10:57:31 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:57:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <190.201acaa8.2ca30adb@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/23/2003 3:00:57 PM Central Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> 
> >I believe that you'll find quite a few of the Rebel Angels have
> >>experimented with accentuals, syllabics, alliterative verse, and so
> forth.
> 
> Actually, although it's a completely separate issue, the (mis)appropriation
> by the Neoformalists of the term "Rebel Angels" for their anthology really
> does get right up my nose.  Mostly because I think of it as the title of a
> novel by Robertson Davies.  Other reasons as well ...

I do believe that Mr. Mason and Mr. Jarman, as editors, chose the title of 
their anthology without consulting with the other members of this cabal.  I 
personally suggested they title it "The Few Normalists."  But that wouldn't wash.
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From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 24 11:18:39 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:18:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
Message-ID: <57.227517b1.2ca30fcf@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/23/2003 11:56:59 AM Central Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> 
> [Look, I'm not *just* being pedantic in including Dipodic -- try to scan
> John Crowe Ransom any other way and you're up shit creek.  Captain Carpenter
> rode a Dipodic horse.]
> 
Ransom, incidentally, calls the meter of Hardy's "Neutral Tones" dipodic.  He 
is wrong.  Hardy is writing what Frost would have called "loose iambic" in a 
4443 pattern. I would say that what Ransom is doing in "Captain Carpenter" is 
roughly the same, though the pattern is 4444 (though it at times sounds to me 
like 4443--it's a very rough poem metrically) and he is much "looser" than 
even Frost, who generally combines iambs and anapests ("The Need of Being Versed 
in Country Things" or "The Road Not Taken").  JCR called his poem a "little 
ballad," and he seems to be trying to imitate the rugged accentuals of many 
border ballads, though the usual ballad pattern is 4343.
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From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep 24 12:53:43 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:53:43 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
References: <172.201bf3d2.2ca30a30@cs.com>
Message-ID: <051301c382bc$69cd4a70$478f8051@MyPC>

From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  Both syllable-accent and stress metres pattern on binary -- dipodic metre
  patterns on a (perceived, consciously or not) triad:  unstressed, weak
  stressed, strong stressed.

      Humpty dumpty sat on the wall,
      Humpty dumpty had a great fall.


  Dipodic meters are double-duple, not triadic.  A trochaic-based dipodic meter  combines two feet and is counterpointed to uu/u; similarly, iambic is counterpointed to u/uu.  For good examples, W. S. Gilbert can't be beat:

                 /                     /                  /                     /
  If you'll give me your attention I will tell you who I am:
  I'm a genuine philanthropist--all other kinds or sham.

  I think we may be using the term "dipodic metre" in different senses.  NPEPP (1993) begins its article (by Tim Brogan, incidentally) by alluding to an older classical sense, then moving on.  The article, incidentally, is completely rewritten by TB for this edition, not always the case, as he often simply revises the older enties in metrics.  Your own use here is closer (but not identical, as you don't take account of the weak stresss / strong stress contrast) to the previous article in the 1974 edition.

  [Yes, yes, I know -- I'm mildly fanatic about taking every opportunity to suggest that even if you have a copy of PEPP, it's worth getting the 1993 edition, if only for Brogan's articles and revisions.  <g>]

  Anyway, from the web:  http://www.hearts-ease.org/cgi-bin/termsn.cgi?data=library&letter=d

  Dipodic Foot 
  The basic foot of dipodic verse, consisting (when complete) of an unaccented syllable, a lightly accented syllable, an unaccented syllable, and a heavily accented syllable, in that succession. 


  Dipodic Verse 
  A metre in which there is a perceptible alternation between light and heavy stresses. Example: A.E. Housman's Oh who is that young sinner

  Crucially, unstressed, weak stressed, strong stressed (which is why I described it as triadic -- not perhaps the best word to chose) and thus, pace Gioia, quite distinct from OE stress metre.


  or
       /                  /                /                     /
  I am the very model of a modern major general;
  I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral.

  I'd scan this as dipodic.  Thus:

           S                  W              S            W 
      I am the very model of a modern major general;

  (Incidentally, another difference, I'd put the fourth ictus on the first syllable of "major", not the second.)

  Many long iambic and trochaic lines ("Locksley Hall" for example) exhibit this kind of rhythmical counterpoint, 

  I don't think I'd define "Locksley Hall" as dipodic (at least in the sense I'm using the term) -- 

      Comrades, leave me here a little, while as yet 't is early morn: 
      Leave me here, and when you want me, sound upon the bugle-horn. 

  ... either catalectic trochaic octameter or acephalic iambic octameter.  There isn't a *systemic* contrast between the stresses in the lines.

  (Actually, I wouldn't use either term -- I'd simply say, as with Browning's "A Toccata of Galuppi's" and Auden's "Get there if you can ..." that it's written in trochaic septameters.    I went into this in more detail in a post to poetryetc on 18 September, carrying it all back to Thomas Lord Vaux.  If anyone is masochistic enough to be interested.)

  There's a long and useful discussion of some of these issues (which contradicts several of the things I say above) in a book review by James Fenton in the Guardian:

          http://books.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4491482-110742,00.html

  Robin 
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From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep 24 13:22:08 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:22:08 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
References: <190.201acaa8.2ca30adb@cs.com>
Message-ID: <051a01c382c0$62381480$478f8051@MyPC>

From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com

<<
"
Actually, although it's a completely separate issue, the (mis)appropriation
by the Neoformalists of the term "Rebel Angels" for their anthology really
does get right up my nose.  Mostly because I think of it as the title of a
novel by Robertson Davies.  Other reasons as well ...
"

I do believe that Mr. Mason and Mr. Jarman, as editors, chose the title of
their anthology without consulting with the other members of this cabal.  I
personally suggested they title it "The Few Normalists."  But that wouldn't
wash.
>>

Having huffed and puffed last night, I'm now guiltily aware that much if not
all my response to Neoformalism is based on Dana Gioia (and to a lesser
degree, Timothy Steele).  Anyway, I've bitten plastic and ordered a copy of
/Rebel Angels/ from amazon.co.uk.  Prolly take 2-3 weeks to reach me, sent
from the States presumably, so don't hold your breath for a prompt reaction.
<g>

As a slight sociological aside, amazon/UK:US ranking of titles including
"Rebel Angels" runs:

Robertson Davies: THE CORNISH TRILOGY  (30,478     -- US: 68,543)
Robertson Davies: THE REBEL ANGELS         (78,023     -- US: 100,499)
Jarman and Mason: REBEL ANGELS                 (402,003   -- US: 189,302)

[The UK ranking may have been effected by my recent order -- I think {I'm
not absolutely sure} that it was in the 700,000s earlier.]

I first came on the term years ago, when one of my students described me as
a Rebel Angel.  I wasn't sure whether this was intended as a compliment or
not, and after reading the Robertson Davies' novel, I still wasn't entirely
sure.  So when I came on this as the title of the Neoformalist anthology, I
had some (probably irrelevant) previous with the term.

Robin





From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep 24 13:25:44 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:25:44 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <57.227517b1.2ca30fcf@cs.com>
Message-ID: <052101c382c0$e300ad70$478f8051@MyPC>

From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com

[SNIPPED]

<< "Captain Carpenter"  ...  JCR called his poem a "little ballad," and he
seems to be trying to imitate the rugged accentuals of many border ballads,
though the usual ballad pattern is 4343. >>

"rugged accentuals of many border ballads" -- rest my case, m'lud.

I'll try and get my act together and scan it in dipodic terms.

Robin





From JforJames  Wed Sep 24 13:26:49 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:26:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Winnow Press First Book Award in Poetry
Message-ID: <4c.227662be.2ca32dd9@aol.com>

Enter in hope of not being winnowed?...
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Winnow Press First Book Award in Poetry

Prize
$1,500 and 50 copies of the book

Deadline
October 25, 2003

Guidelines
See www.winnowpress.com

Judge
Kathleen Peirce
Ms. Peirce is a faculty member of Texas State University's MFA program.
She is the author of Mercy, Divided Touch, Divided Color, The Oval Hour, and
the forthcoming The Ardors (from Ausable Press). Her awards include the
Associated Writing Programs Award for Poetry, the Iowa Prize, and the
William Carlos Williams Award.

Guidelines
Entries will be accepted between August 1, 2003 and October 25, 2003.
All entries must be postmarked by October 25, 2003. No late submissions will
be accepted.

The contest is open to authors who have NOT published, or agreed to
publish,a book of poetry 40 or more pages long, in an edition of 500 or more
copies, in the United States or elsewhere. Former and current students,
colleagues, relatives, and friends of the judge are not permitted to enter.

Manuscripts should be in English, by one author, and original. We cannot
consider translations.

We require two copies of the manuscript. Each entry should be between 50
and 80 pages, paginated, with no more than one poem on each page. Please
include a table of contents. If you have published poems in any periodicals,
add
a page of acknowledgments. You may include poems that have been published
in chapbooks.

Two title pages are necessary for each copy of the manuscript. On the
first title page, include the title of the manuscript and your name,
address,
telephone number, and e-mail address (if available). Do not add your
name anywhere else in the manuscript. The second title page should include
only the manuscript's title. Manuscripts will be given to the judge with
only
the second, anonymous title page.

Use a binder clip to fasten each copy of the manuscript. Please do not
use a stapler, and refrain from including a manila folder or report cover.

A personal check, cashier's check, or money order for the $20.00 entry
fee must accompany every entry. Please make checks or money orders payable
to Winnow Press. Cash cannot be accepted.

If you would like confirmation that your manuscript has been received,
include a stamped, self-addressed postcard. Note that a canceled
personal check will serve as confirmation of receipt.

If you want to receive a copy of the winning book, include a
self-addressed 8 1/2" x 11" manila envelope, with $2.00 in postage affixed.
Please bear
in mind that the winning book will not be published until one year after
the winner is announced.

Address manuscripts and other correspondence about the award to:

Winnow Press
First Book Award in Poetry
3505 El Dorado Trail, Ste. A
Austin, Texas 78739-5704

Manuscripts will not be returned. They will be recycled. Please keep a
copy of your work.

Simultaneous submissions are allowed. However, please notify us
immediatelyif another publisher has accepted your manuscript.

If you want to submit more than one manuscript, we require two copies of
each entry and another fee. Additional entries should be sent in
different envelopes.

Announcement of the contest winner is expected by March 31, 2004. The
winning book will be published within one year of that date. The winner
will be announced on our website and in other venues. If you do not have
access to the Web, please include an SASE with your manuscript. We will send
an
announcement of the winner to you.

The contest winner must provide the manuscript on a computer disk. He or
she will be given time to revise before publication, if necessary.

No royalties will be paid on the first 1,500 copies of the book.
Royalties
will be paid based on book sales above that number. Royalties will not
be paid on copies given to reviewers or distributed for other promotional
purposes.

We reserve the right to disqualify any entry for failure to comply with
the above guidelines.

Submission Checklist
* Two copies of the manuscript, each secured with a binder clip

* Two title pages for each manuscript:
- one with the title of the manuscript and your name, address, telephone
number, and e-mail address (if available)
- another with only the manuscript's title

* A personal check, cashier's check, or money order for the $20.00 entry
fee, made payable to Winnow Press

* A stamped, self-addressed postcard if you want confirmation that we
have
received the manuscript

* A self-addressed 81/2" x 11" manila envelope for delivery of the
winning
book, with $2.00 in postage affixed

* A self-addressed, stamped envelope for notification of the winners (if
you
do not have access to the Web)

* The entry package should be addressed to:
Winnow Press
First Book Award in Poetry
3505 El Dorado Trail, Ste. A
Austin, Texas 78739-5704
__________________________

About Winnow Press

At the present time, we accept and publish manuscripts only through our
annual contests. Within a couple of years, we will also publish
non-contest books, as well as book arts projects
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From mandolin  Wed Sep 24 13:35:46 2003
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:35:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <3573834.1064424946660.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Wednesday, September 24, 2003, at 12:53PM, Robin Hamilton <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote:

>Anyway, from the web:  http://www.hearts-ease.org/cgi-bin/termsn.cgi?data=library&letter=d
>
>Dipodic Foot 
>The basic foot of dipodic verse, consisting (when complete) of an unaccented syllable, a lightly >accented syllable, an unaccented syllable, and a heavily accented syllable, in that succession. 
>
>
>Dipodic Verse 
>A metre in which there is a perceptible alternation between light and heavy stresses. Example: >A.E. Housman's Oh who is that young sinner 
  
>Crucially, unstressed, weak stressed, strong stressed (which is why I described it as triadic -- >not perhaps the best word to chose) and thus, pace Gioia, quite distinct from OE stress metre.

But your "crucial" pattern for a dipodic foot ignores the second unstressed syllable in the quoted definition--which itself is really just a definition for about half of all pairs of iambic feet.



From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 24 14:23:53 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:23:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <97.3e5345a9.2ca33b39@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/24/2003 12:22:49 PM Central Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> 
> I first came on the term years ago, when one of my students described me as
> a Rebel Angel.  I wasn't sure whether this was intended as a compliment or
> not, and after reading the Robertson Davies' novel, I still wasn't entirely
> sure.  So when I came on this as the title of the Neoformalist anthology, I
> had some (probably irrelevant) previous with the term.
> 
> Robin
> 

Actually, Jarman and Mason took their title from a letter by Keats.  I don't 
have Davies's novel anymore, so I don't know where his title came from (but I 
still fondly recall those two old ladies from Dundee).

No one, including those included, were entirely satisfied with the Rebel 
Angels anthology, but it's the only one out there that covers New Formalism, 
however imperfectly.
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From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 24 14:40:39 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:40:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <1c8.f6c89a9.2ca33f27@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/24/2003 11:55:36 AM Central Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> I think we may be using the term "dipodic metre" in different senses.  
> NPEPP (1993) begins its article (by Tim Brogan, incidentally) by alluding to an 
> older classical sense, then moving on.  The article, incidentally, is 
> completely rewritten by TB for this edition, not always the case, as he often simply 
> revises the older enties in metrics.  Your own use here is closer (but not 
> identical, as you don't take account of the weak stresss / strong stress 
> contrast) to the previous article in the 1974 edition.
>   
>  [Yes, yes, I know -- I'm mildly fanatic about taking every opportunity to 
> suggest that even if you have a copy of PEPP, it's worth getting the 1993 
> edition, if only for Brogan's articles and revisions.  <g>]
>   
> 
Terry Brogan's scansion, taken from George R. Stewart, is the same as mine 
except that he uses a secondary stress.

Mine for dipodic iambic heptameter:

  u   /  u  u | u   /     u     u  |   u    /      u    u   |   u   /
I've visited old England and I've seen the coast of Spain.


NPEPP's:
  x   /  x  \   x   /     x     \   |  x      /     x      \    x    /
I've visited old England and I've seen the coast of Spain.


I agree with what Terry says in that the alternation of weak and strong "is 
extended one level higher, to strong and stronger."  I just don't much care for 
secondary stresses, though they may be appropriate in this case. 
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From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep 24 14:52:17 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:52:17 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
References: <3573834.1064424946660.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <054101c382cc$fad49180$478f8051@MyPC>

From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>

> >Crucially, unstressed, weak stressed, strong stressed (which is why I
described it as triadic -- >not perhaps the best word to chose) and thus,
pace Gioia, quite distinct from OE stress metre.
>
> But your "crucial" pattern for a dipodic foot ignores the second
unstressed syllable in the quoted definition--which itself is really just a
definition for about half of all pairs of iambic feet.

I was hoping I wasn't going to have to do this, but I suppose I'd better OCR
the Brogan article in NPEPP ...  (The defs I pulled from the web were
quick-and-dirty -- I didn't want to have to go to the trouble of copying out
the NPEPP stuff.  I thought they were close enough to serve.  Jeezus, it
hadn't even occurred to me that this was a contentious issue.  <g> )

Crucially:

QUOTE
"D[ipodic verse]" is a misleading term insofar as it evokes the double feet
of Gr. prosody: the point is not that the feet double up, but rather simply
that the principle of alternation - evident in, for example, iambic feet in
the alternation of weak and strong - is extended one level higher, to strong
and stronger.

ENDQUOTE

... there's lots more (including a bibliography at the end of the article
extending from Patmore in 1857 to Malof in 1970) but that's the nub of it.

Now, I know there ain't such a thing as a Bible of Metrics, or one single
authority, but when it comes down to it, Brogan in NEPP is the closest
you'll get to this.  I mean, the guy is fairly well-read in the area, and
he's not trying to be contentious in the NPEPP articles, simply summarising
where it is now.

One caveat -- if you look at the articles and books Brogan lists at the end,
there's a ... class-gap.  All the works Brogan cites (fairly enough, given
his focus there) are in "the tradition of Saintsbury".  (I'm trying to avoid
the confusion which would be introduced if I used the term "classical
English scansion" or whatever.)  Simply, there's a whole other ball-game at
play if you move into Attridge and Tarlinskaja, the attempt to go back to
linguistic basics and rebuild the scansion of English poetry from the ground
up.

So add to the works Brogan lists, Derek Attridge, /The Rhythms of English
Poetry/ (1982), pp. 114-121.

I have to say that I don't entirely go for the linguistic approach -- for
all of me, Malof is the classic text of the earlier tradition.  But I
suspect it may be the last (of any significance).   Dunno who'll win this
one -- tradition or the linguists -- but for the moment, while trying to be
at least loosely aware of what's happening elsewhere, I'm happy to stick to
the terminology developed and refined over the centuries.  If it ain't
broke, don't fix it, for all of me.

Robin





...






From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 24 14:53:29 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:53:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <10.35d3309d.2ca34229@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/24/2003 11:55:36 AM Central Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
>      /                  /                /                     /
> I am the very model of a modern major general;
> I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral.
>   
>  I'd scan this as dipodic.  Thus:
>   
>           S                  W              S            W 
>     I am the very model of a modern major general;
>   
>  (Incidentally, another difference, I'd put the fourth ictus on the first 
> syllable of "major", not the second.)
>  
> 
> 

Using Brogan's method:

x   /    x   \  x   /     x  \   x   /    x    \    x   /   x  \
I am the very model of a modern major general;
 

In other words, four dipodic feet:


x   /    x   \  |  x   /     x  \  |  x   /    x    \   |  x   /   x  \

The base meter is iambic octameter, but it is syncopated (or counterpointed) 
to a four-foot dipodic line.

If the base meter is trochaic, the pattern is reversed:

\ x / x  |   \ x / x     and so on.

This is what I hear in Browning:

\       x  /   x  | \    x   /  x | \   x   /  x  | \    x    /
Oh  Galuppi, Badassare, this is very sad to find

Technically, this could be called trochaic octameter catalectic, but it 
certainly sounds leaden is you try to read it as a sequence of fifteen syllables 
alternating strong and weak.

Anyway you read it, it still turns out to be accentual-syllabic, not simply 
accentual (where the number of weak stresses is not regulated and their order 
is not always the same in the line).
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From paul.lake  Wed Sep 24 15:00:22 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:00:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
In-Reply-To: <97.3e5345a9.2ca33b39@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BB9753F6.555D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/24/03 1:23 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/24/2003 12:22:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
> robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes:
>> 
>> I first came on the term years ago, when one of my students described me as
>> a Rebel Angel.  I wasn't sure whether this was intended as a compliment or
>> not, and after reading the Robertson Davies' novel, I still wasn't entirely
>> sure.  So when I came on this as the title of the Neoformalist anthology, I
>> had some (probably irrelevant) previous with the term.
>> 
>> Robin
>> 
> 
> Actually, Jarman and Mason took their title from a letter by Keats.  I don't
> have Davies's novel anymore, so I don't know where his title came from (but I
> still fondly recall those two old ladies from Dundee).
> 
> No one, including those included, were entirely satisfied with the Rebel
> Angels anthology, but it's the only one out there that covers New Formalism,
> however imperfectly.

One indication of the outsider status of New Formalism is that Rebel Angels
remains the only New Formalist anthology. I agree with Sam that it?s not
perfect. For anyone interested, there?s now a DLB volume devoted to New
Formalism (Volume 282), with articles on 25 contemporary formal poets.
Though not the same 25 poets of Rebel Angels, there?s a good deal overlap as
well as a number of new voices like Kay Ryan, Michael Donaghy, and Rhina
Espaillat.

Paul Lake 
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From marcus  Wed Sep 24 15:12:20 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:12:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
In-Reply-To: <001101c3829b$aa98fac0$b4737450@anny>
Message-ID: <3F71B454.25221.9D3341@localhost>

On 24 Sep 2003 at 14:59, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> ... one can say that identical things are different and this
> is the most enlightening spark in poetry.<<

Well maybe it's a spark when you're actually writing poetry, but when 
you're writing about poetry, when you're theorizing about poetry, 
calling two identical things different is simply a mistake, just as 
it would be if we were talking about any other subject.

> ... there was a painter (don't
> ask me who in this moment) who started painting only in one color, or
> blue, or red, or yellow, painting after painting. And I also did it
> for a short time. That is where you understand the different shades of
> the same color, and how to mix colors so that the basic one does not
> lose its intensity.<<

This is either disingenuous, equivocation, or a simple mistake in 
understanding the notion of 'the same'. When we talk about 'the same 
color' in the context of a painter's "blue period" we mean a 
different thing than when we talk about 'the same color' when we're 
trying to match up two pieces of stained glass, or match the color of 
a wood repair to the rest of the staircase or frame (for example). 
The notion that there are differences in blues that are all still 
blue is a different notion from the difference between blue and red 
and yellow. 

There is no evidence in Bob Grumman's tone or content that he intends 
that "free verse" is an "among blues" kind of difference; in fact he 
has explicitly stated that "free verse" is "a different game" 
altogether, which sounds as if he is talking about the differences 
between something more along the red/blue difference.






From tadrichards  Wed Sep 24 15:29:37 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:29:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
References: <BB9753F6.555D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <01ef01c382d2$31735190$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Re: [New-Poetry] Newfo poeticsWhat about Annie Finch's "A Formal Feeling Comes"?

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Lake 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 3:00 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics


  on 9/24/03 1:23 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:


    In a message dated 9/24/2003 12:22:49 PM Central Daylight Time, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 


      I first came on the term years ago, when one of my students described me as
      a Rebel Angel.  I wasn't sure whether this was intended as a compliment or
      not, and after reading the Robertson Davies' novel, I still wasn't entirely
      sure.  So when I came on this as the title of the Neoformalist anthology, I
      had some (probably irrelevant) previous with the term.

      Robin



    Actually, Jarman and Mason took their title from a letter by Keats.  I don't have Davies's novel anymore, so I don't know where his title came from (but I still fondly recall those two old ladies from Dundee).

    No one, including those included, were entirely satisfied with the Rebel Angels anthology, but it's the only one out there that covers New Formalism, however imperfectly. 


  One indication of the outsider status of New Formalism is that Rebel Angels remains the only New Formalist anthology. I agree with Sam that it's not perfect. For anyone interested, there's now a DLB volume devoted to New Formalism (Volume 282), with articles on 25 contemporary formal poets. Though not the same 25 poets of Rebel Angels, there's a good deal overlap as well as a number of new voices like Kay Ryan, Michael Donaghy, and Rhina Espaillat.

  Paul Lake 
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From tadrichards  Wed Sep 24 15:30:43 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:30:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dipodics
References: <BB9753F6.555D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <020401c382d2$5859d090$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Re: [New-Poetry] Newfo poeticsThank you all for making me feel like a tin-eared idiot. I can't hear these distinctions at all.


Tad
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From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep 24 15:42:54 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:42:54 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
References: <1c8.f6c89a9.2ca33f27@cs.com>
Message-ID: <058401c382d5$ac3e6100$478f8051@MyPC>

From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com

<<
I agree with what Terry says in that the alternation of weak and strong "is
extended one level higher, to strong and stronger."  I just don't much care
for secondary stresses, though they may be appropriate in this case.
>>

OK, I think we now both know where we are <g>.

Mostly, I'd agree with you over secondary stresses -- that issue was (for
me) pretty-much decided by Wimsatt and Beardsley's "Concept of Meter"
article in 1959.  Stress isn't absolute but contrastive.  But I think with
the ballad and nursery rhyme, we're in an area where a strong stress / weak
stress patterning is systemic rather than simply optional.

But I guess neither of us is going to convince the other on this.  Oh, god,
I suppose I'd better put my money where my mouth is and scan "Captain
Carpenter".

:-(

(We seem to be crossing-posting here, both front-channel and back.  Thanks
for mentioning George Stewart -- I should have drawn attention to him as a
pretty crucial text in this particular debate.)

Robin







From paul.lake  Wed Sep 24 15:55:57 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:55:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
In-Reply-To: <01ef01c382d2$31735190$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <BB9760FD.5564%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/24/03 2:29 PM, TheOldMole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:

> What about Annie Finch's "A Formal Feeling Comes"?
>  
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Paul Lake <mailto:paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
>> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 3:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
>> 
>> on 9/24/03 1:23 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
>> 
>>> In a message dated 9/24/2003 12:22:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
>>> robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes:
>>>> 
>>>> I first came on the term years ago, when one of my students described me as
>>>> a Rebel Angel.  I wasn't sure whether this was intended as a compliment or
>>>> not, and after reading the Robertson Davies' novel, I still wasn't entirely
>>>> sure.  So when I came on this as the title of the Neoformalist anthology, I
>>>> had some (probably irrelevant) previous with the term.
>>>> 
>>>> Robin
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Actually, Jarman and Mason took their title from a letter by Keats.  I don't
>>> have Davies's novel anymore, so I don't know where his title came from (but
>>> I still fondly recall those two old ladies from Dundee).
>>> 
>>> No one, including those included, were entirely satisfied with the Rebel
>>> Angels anthology, but it's the only one out there that covers New Formalism,
>>> however imperfectly.
>> 
>> One indication of the outsider status of New Formalism is that Rebel Angels
>> remains the only New Formalist anthology. I agree with Sam that it?s not
>> perfect. For anyone interested, there?s now a DLB volume devoted to New
>> Formalism (Volume 282), with articles on 25 contemporary formal poets. Though
>> not the same 25 poets of Rebel Angels, there?s a good deal overlap as well as
>> a number of new voices like Kay Ryan, Michael Donaghy, and Rhina Espaillat.
>> 
>> Paul Lake 
>> 

True, it does include New Formalists and is devoted to formal poetry.
However, it?s not a general anthology; it includes only women poets.  Some
formalists have also complained that Annie?s definition of form is so broad
as to be almost meaningless, including poems by predominantly free verse
poets that fit the anthology?s rather broad definition of ?form.?

Still, let?s say that makes two small anthologies--both from the same rather
marginalized small press, Story Line, whose editor/publisher Robert McDowell
is himself a formal poet.

By contrast, I just checked the new Norton Anthology of Contemporary Poetry.
Using the same 1945 birthday cut-off date as the editors of Rebel Angels, I
note that there is not one American New Formalist poet among the 29 poets
included. Two UK poets with formalist leanings, Paul Muldoon and James
Fenton, get in, but none of them evil upstart American Neos, who must be
excluded, lest they get a foot in the door of otherwise respectable
?inclusive? anthologies.  
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From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep 24 16:01:53 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:01:53 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
References: <10.35d3309d.2ca34229@cs.com>
Message-ID: <059f01c382d7$1f8fe790$478f8051@MyPC>

From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com

<<
This is what I hear in Browning:

\       x  /   x  | \    x   /  x | \   x   /  x  | \    x    /
Oh  Galuppi, Badassare, this is very sad to find

Technically, this could be called trochaic octameter catalectic, but it
certainly sounds leaden is you try to read it as a sequence of fifteen
syllables alternating strong and weak.

Anyway you read it, it still turns out to be accentual-syllabic, not simply
accentual (where the number of weak stresses is not regulated and their
order is not always the same in the line).
>>

Actually, I'd agree with that.  Why I'd (in my terms) be reluctant to see it
a dipodic is that while the metrically stressed syllables vary in strength
[inevitably], I don't see any systemic variation.  Finally, for me, Browning
here falls happily within the norms of syllable-accent metre.

Robin





From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 24 16:06:51 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:06:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <a8.22a8afde.2ca3535b@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/24/2003 2:56:41 PM Central Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> 
> But I guess neither of us is going to convince the other on this.  Oh, god,
> I suppose I'd better put my money where my mouth is and scan "Captain
> Carpenter".
> 
Yeah, we can compare.  But do only a couple of stanzas.  I'm in the midst of 
trying to convince my students that Marlowe's Helen speech from Dr. Faustus 
really is in iambic pentameter.
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From JforJames  Wed Sep 24 16:27:29 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:27:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
Message-ID: <15d.25110d71.2ca35831@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/24/03 12:04:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes:
 
>  So beyond "mere" convention, there seems to be a limit to how long a line 
in
>  English verse can be and still retain its identity *as* a single line.
>  
>  Bite it and see -- convention or not, that's the way it goes.
Robin, first off, regarding metrics, I enjoy seeing you and Sam
hash things out, but it's way out of my league. I was trying to broaden
the point: Poetry isn't verse. It's an art that is practiced quite ably 
without English metrics & forms, however they have evolved to
this point in time. 
The naturalness claim is bogus; unless English poetry is more natural 
than any of 10,000 other languages (and dialects). True, human
anatomical aspects (breath, capabiliity of the larynx, tongue, palate, etc ,
to create sound) are a constraints of speech, and thus have affected 
language...and by implication have affected the development of our poetry. 
But anything beyond this "we must pass over in silence."
 
>  > There
>  > is no ontological basis for a sonnet having 14 lines rather than 12.
>  
>  On the face of it, sure -- why fourteen lines rather than 13 or 15 or
>  whatever?
>  
>  In one sense, the sonnet is a classic case of a *totally* conventional 
form.
>  
>  But if it's so purely conventional, how come the massed creative genius
>  since it first appeared in Italy in the twelfth century ain't come up with
>  anything better?
>  
>  To simplify matters (or load the dice or put the goalposts where I want
>  them), dumping the Petrarchan and Spenserian and whatever variants and
>  sticking to the "English" sonnet (first written by Surrey, much as it irks
>  me to give that lame-brained [expletive deleted] turd credit for anything)
>  what do you have?  Three quatrains and a couplet.
>  
>  Right -- the two "natural" elements of English stanzaic form.  Drop to 12
>  lines, and you have three quatrains.  So why stop at +three+ quatrains?
>  Increase to 16 and again ...  So there's a case to be made for the
>  "conventional" 14 line "English" sonnet as being, for whatever reasons,
>  about the *only* closed form natural to English.  Quatrains can go on and 
on
>  forever, same with blank verse iambic or couplets.  No built-in closure.
>  Start a sonnet and you know when you're going to have to stop.  14 lines
>  down the line.
>  
>  This is simply the way IT IS.  You might not like it, but for god's sake,
>  cite me *any* other closed form which was first written in English in the
>  early 16thC and still is written today.  I don't think I really care 
whether
>  or not we decide that the sonnet is natural or artificial, but whatever,
>  it's sure as hell not simply, as Finnegan seems to be implying, "simply
>  conventional".
>  
>  Ooof.  Am I still making any sense?  My irritation with what Finnegan seems
>  to be saying is that I really think that to say, "It's all convention,"
>  ignores certain aspects of reality which are hard-wired as part of the
>  English language.  And some of these -- the ten-syllable default line and
>  the quatrain/couplet structure -- are built-into the English sonnet form.
>  
>  Hard cheese.  That's how it goes.  You don't have to like it -- I'm not 
even
>  sure *I* like it -- but in five hundred ever-loving years, no one has come
>  up with anything better.  Or other.

You don't have to defend the sonnet. It's certainly has been a success
in English and other European languages. My saying it is a convention 
is not dismissive; it's recognition of its success: Likely the most practiced 
of all poetic forms (or neck & neck with the haiku, anyway). 
Still, what does that mean re "poetry"? Not much, I'm afraid. Part of what  
perpetuates convention is the desire to be part of a history & its cultural
trappings.
Brides, in our culture, primarily to wear white. Marriage and the color 
of bridal gowns are not related other than by convention. Convention
is a complex of culture and history, utility and aesthetics. Prosodic 
elements and poetry are conventionally related in much the same way.
When I write a sonnet, I'm, in a way, rubbing elbows with Milton
and Shakespeare, Spenser and Petrach, I'm part of great on-going dialog.
Which is part of its allure...and goodly part of the reason it perpuates 
itself. A sonnet, it's true, has enough extent to develop a 
subject/thought/feeling but also enough containment to concentrate 
the energy and effect. There is no magic, however, in 14 lines.

Which brings me back around to the "purity" of the game (in Paul
Lake's baseball analogy). If we say, for the sake of argument, that
poetry is a language game involving constructs of felicitous speech.
Could it as a "game" ever have been pure? In chess, which we can all agree
is a game, at some point in the 16th century the pawn was allowed 
to move 2 squares on its first move. And the game changed....
Surely there are those who bemoaned that change. Part of it was 
nostalgia and in part because time-honored strategies were now 
disrupted, thinking had to be altered..change is uncomfotable. 
Chess is not more or less pure because in an earlier version of the 
game's practice the pawn could move but one square. And 
speaking of definitions, I think it was Coleridge who said of chess, 
"the right pieces in right order"
Finnegan



From simon  Wed Sep 24 16:39:12 2003
From: simon (Beth Simon)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:39:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <sf71baa5.082@gw.ipfw.edu>

Get a performance of it -- is there one on vid/dvd?
i was at an astonishingly good live performance a couple of years ago
-- you can hear how glorious much of it is!

beth

 
Yeah, we can compare.  But do only a couple of stanzas.  I'm in the
midst of 
trying to convince my students that Marlowe's Helen speech from Dr.
Faustus 
really is in iambic pentameter.



From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep 24 16:29:43 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:29:43 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
References: <a8.22a8afde.2ca3535b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <05bb01c382dc$d83bf590$478f8051@MyPC>

<<
Yeah, we can compare.  But do only a couple of stanzas.
>>

K -- I'll find a couple of stanzas and go first.  I think there's a copy
(illegally) somewhere on the Web, so I shouldn't have to OCR it.

<<
I'm in the midst of trying to convince my students that Marlowe's Helen
speech from Dr. Faustus really is in iambic pentameter.
>>

Luck!  <evil chuckle>

Off the point of scansion, but as you're teaching it ...  The Helen scene(s)
are one of the three times in the play where Marlowe does something
*twice* -- the other two are the Pact and This is hell.   He'll do a scene
pretty-much word-for-word from the Faustbook, then rewrite it in Renaissance
terms.  Cool!  Deliberate juxtaposition of a medieval and a renaissance
perspective.

Robin





From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 24 17:02:20 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:02:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
Message-ID: <64.34b17a71.2ca3605c@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/24/2003 3:33:38 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> Poetry isn't verse. It's an art that is practiced quite ably 
> without English metrics &forms, however they have evolved to
> this point in time. 

Poetry is a literary genre; verse is a mode of writing in lines.  Poetry may 
be written either in prose or in verse (metrical by any system, including the 
largely intuitive systems of much free verse and including prosodies based on 
grammatical units and parallel structures, like Whitman's).  This is only to 
say that all lineated writing is verse--formal or not--but not necessarily 
poetry (which does imply some kind of value judgment).  Thus, no prose is verse; 
some prose is poetry; some poetry is written in prose; some verse is not 
poetry; some verse is poetry, and so on.  I could take a passage from the IRS tax 
instruction book and turn it into verse of various types, but that wouldn't, I 
don't think, automatically make it poetry.
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From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 24 17:03:17 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:03:17 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <16f.24294ecd.2ca36095@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/24/2003 3:40:49 PM Central Daylight Time, simon at ipfw.edu 
writes: 
> Get a performance of it -- is there one on vid/dvd?
> i was at an astonishingly good live performance a couple of years ago
> -- you can hear how glorious much of it is!
> 
> beth
> 
> 
> Yeah, we can compare.  But do only a couple of stanzas.  I'm in the
> midst of 
> trying to convince my students that Marlowe's Helen speech from Dr.
> Faustus 
> really is in iambic pentameter.
When I teach British lit I make my students memorize and recite it.
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From JforJames  Wed Sep 24 17:52:17 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:52:17 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <a2.3c8e645c.2ca36c11@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/24/03 4:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:

> 
>  By contrast, I just checked the new Norton Anthology of Contemporary 
Poetry.
>  Using the same 1945 birthday cut-off date as the editors of Rebel Angels, I
>  note that there is not one American New Formalist poet among the 29 poets
>  included. Two UK poets with formalist leanings, Paul Muldoon and James
>  Fenton, get in, but none of them evil upstart American Neos, who must be
>  excluded, lest they get a foot in the door of otherwise respectable
>  ?inclusive? anthologies.  
>  
But The Norton Anthology of Poetry (fourth ed.) did have Gioia, Leithauser,
Daniel Hall, Shahid Ali, Corn (born '43 but who's counting), Schnackenberg...
In real estate the quip is: Location, location, location. In anthologies
its: Editor, editor, editor.
Finnegan




From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep 24 18:11:34 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:11:34 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <15d.25110d71.2ca35831@aol.com>
Message-ID: <05bc01c382e8$d1221080$478f8051@MyPC>

Finnegan:

> Robin, first off, regarding metrics, I enjoy seeing you and Sam
> hash things out, but it's way out of my league. I was trying to broaden
> the point: Poetry isn't verse. It's an art that is practiced quite ably
> without English metrics & forms, however they have evolved to
> this point in time.

Well, actually, I'd pretty-much agree with that.  Writing poetry, even
metrical poetry, and analysing it are two different activities.  I'd use a
rather crude analogy -- metrics is like grammar:  all native speakers speak
grammatically, even if they can't describe what they do in terms of grammar.
Grammar (and metrics) are post hoc -- describing what has been done.

[Well, yeah, there are qualifications to that -- the Catastrophe between
Tottel's Miscellany in 1553 and Sidney's Astrophel and Stella in the early
1590s, when poets tried for a time to write, consciously and counting on
their fingers, "iambic pentameter".  Brrrr!]

(Also, as an addendum, in this area we should really talk in historical
terms.  The range of poetic possibilities were different pre-1100 to later.
The late 14thC was odd.  Between 1600 and 1900, virtually every poem written
is written in iambics.  After 1910, it's a whole new ball-game.  Now <g>,
just how many contentious and dubious statements is it possible to include
in two and a half lines?

K, I realise that there's lots of argument around this, but what I'm saying
is that in *one* sense (and here we're back to the "natural" business) there
were (and are) *effective* possibilities open to a writer in 1920 (and now)
that weren't open in, say, 1850.   Crudely, there's nothing preventing
anyone writing a haiku in 1850, but no one did.

Contriwise, I'm still not sure why, in the period between 1520 and 2003, the
*only* time you don't seem to have sonnets bursting out all over is in the
18thC.  I think it's something to do with a rejection of closed forms, but
... Really, I dunno.  Just seems to be the case, but.

End of addendum.)

As an aside -- a long one -- up till about the age of thirty-five, an
interest in metrics struck me as about as geeky as trainspotting.  Then I
got hit by my then-boss, John Lucas, with a line from Wyatt's sonnet,
"Farewell love and all thy laws forever":

   ... hath taught me to set in trifles no store ...

(Actually, there was a subtext to this -- John was [is] both a Committed
Metricist and a hard-nosed
anything-which-can-be-done-at-all-can-be-done-in-iambic-pentameter.  At that
point, I was just about the polar opposite.  John said {nastily} "Tottel
gets right what Wyatt gets wrong <evil chuckle>." )

When I surfaced a month or so later, two things had happened.  One was I'd
developed a full-blown theory about the relation of the Egerton and
Devonshire MSS and Tottel's Miscellany.  The other was that somehow, rather
late in life, I'd been bitten by the metricist bug.

I still tend only to turn to formal scansion when my ear hits something I
can't get my tongue around -- like, say, the lines in Auden's "Lullaby",
'Individual beauty from / Thoughtful children, and the grave'

I don't actually *like* having to scan poems -- means I have to use my poor
old tired brain.  Which is god knows how I managed to get myself into a
pistols-for-two-coffee-for-one with Sam over scanning "Captain Carpenter".
Especially as, half way through trying to scan the second stanza, I'm
beginning to suspect I'm on a hiding to nothing here.  I didn't say that
(officially), did I?  I might still be able to preserve some tatters of
street cred here.  If I'm lucky.

> The naturalness claim is bogus; unless English poetry is more natural
> than any of 10,000 other languages (and dialects).

Ah -- we're talking about two different types of "natural".

> True, human
> anatomical aspects (breath, capabiliity of the larynx, tongue, palate, etc
,
> to create sound) are a constraints of speech, and thus have affected
> language...and by implication have affected the development of our poetry.
> But anything beyond this "we must pass over in silence."

No -- the fact that any human biological mechanism anywhere is capable of
articulating and perceiving a whole range of sounds isn't the same as the
constraints which apply to a speaker brought up in a particular language.
Chinese, English, Arabic, whatever -- each language has *different*
constraints.  In one sense these are "artificial" (other languages do things
differently); in another sense, they're "natural" (this is how Chinese or
English or Arabic speakers do things).

So, locally, I'm talking about the constraints on "English" as a language.
(And before someone jumps down my throat over the elisions that that use of
"English" implies ...  I'm not simply Scottish, I'm a Scottish poet who not
only lived through but participated in the Glasgow Language Wars of the
sixties, so I'm sort-of hyper-aware of this issue.  Anyway, that out of the
road ...)

But ...  ah, I'm running out of brain ...  there are (at least) three
constraints that apply to English -- it's isochronic, native speakers seems
to have an ability to distinguish between four levels of stress (but are
relatively blind when it comes to syllable-length), and (compared to,
specifically, the Romance languages) it's rhyme-poor.

All three things effect what can be done, if not naturally at least easily,
in English.  One thing you *can't* do (and dear god, since poets from Philip
Sidney to the present day have been trying it (with the sole exception of
Clough's "Amours de Voyage" and the Sapphic stanza -- a stunning lack of
success), you'd think that if it could be done, someone other than Clough
would have pulled it off by now writing *satisfactory* poems in English
based on classical qualitative metre.

> You don't have to defend the sonnet. It's certainly has been a success
> in English and other European languages. My saying it is a convention
> is not dismissive; it's recognition of its success:

I think mibee we're at least partly saying the same thing in different words
...

> Brides, in our culture, primarily to wear white. Marriage and the color
> of bridal gowns are not related other than by convention. Convention
> is a complex of culture and history, utility and aesthetics. Prosodic
> elements and poetry are conventionally related in much the same way.

No, I do disagree with this.  See above.  But it may be more the case that
I'd give more weight to intra-linguistic constraints than you, than that
we're in full-blown disagreement here.

Anyway, better get back to Captain Carpenter while i still vaguely remember
what i was trying to do.

Robin





From tadrichards  Wed Sep 24 18:23:33 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:23:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
References: <a2.3c8e645c.2ca36c11@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02b901c382ea$7d4fb640$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Shahid Ali is in the Contemporary, too.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics


In a message dated 9/24/03 4:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:

>
>  By contrast, I just checked the new Norton Anthology of Contemporary
Poetry.
>  Using the same 1945 birthday cut-off date as the editors of Rebel Angels,
I
>  note that there is not one American New Formalist poet among the 29 poets
>  included. Two UK poets with formalist leanings, Paul Muldoon and James
>  Fenton, get in, but none of them evil upstart American Neos, who must be
>  excluded, lest they get a foot in the door of otherwise respectable
>  ?inclusive? anthologies.
>
But The Norton Anthology of Poetry (fourth ed.) did have Gioia, Leithauser,
Daniel Hall, Shahid Ali, Corn (born '43 but who's counting),
Schnackenberg...
In real estate the quip is: Location, location, location. In anthologies
its: Editor, editor, editor.
Finnegan

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From chryss  Wed Sep 24 20:56:34 2003
From: chryss (Chryss Yost)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:56:34 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] LOOKING FOR RENKL, ZIMMER, DYE
Message-ID: <BB978B52.F987%chryss@silcom.com>

If anyone has information on how to contact poets Margaret Renkl, Paul
Zimmer, or Jeffrey Dye, please backchannel...
chryss at silcom.com




From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep 24 22:33:19 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 03:33:19 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
References: <a8.22a8afde.2ca3535b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <06a501c3830d$61ca7ea0$478f8051@MyPC>

From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com

<< Yeah, we can compare. But do only a couple of stanzas. >>

OK, not to stick my thumb on the scales, let's take the first two stanzas.

(Full text here: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~DRBR/ransom2.html)

Here goes nothing ...

CAVEAT -- I'm not sure whether this is how I *would* scan the two stanzas:
I was consciously trying to impose a dipodic reading on the rhythm of the
lines.

   /    X     \   X  X      X    /  X  X    \
Captain Carpenter rose up in his prime

  /   X   X    \ X     X     X        /  X    \
Put on his pistols and went riding out

 X    X   X       /     \        /    X     X  X    \
But had got wellnigh nowhere at that time

 X   X    /    X   X    \   X     / X   \
Till he fell in with ladies in a rout.



 X   /  X  X X   \ X    X   /   X   \
It was a pretty lady and all her train

   X        /        X    \     X    /  X      X    X   \
That played with him so sweetly but before

  X    /      X     \   X   X    /        X    X  X     \
An hour she'd taken a sword with all her main

  X        /        X   X   X    /     X      X    \
And twined him of his nose for evermore.

Observations:  The two stanzas don't seem to work in the same way.  I think
I can just-about justify a scansion of the first stanza that turns on four
stresses per line, but I'm aware that if I weren't pushing it, I'd be more
likely to give each line of the second stanza five metrical stresses ...

I suspect, larger issues aside, I'm on a hiding to nothing here, in trying
to scan CC in dipodic terms.

:-(

Going to sleep on it, and come back and try again without trying to impose a
dipodic scansion, see what happens.

Also, i think i may have to go beyond two stanzas ...

<double glum>

Robin









From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 24 23:03:05 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:03:05 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <1eb.102f9ac0.2ca3b4e9@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/24/2003 9:33:55 PM Central Daylight Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: 
> 
> 
> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
> 
> <<Yeah, we can compare. But do only a couple of stanzas. >>
> 
> OK, not to stick my thumb on the scales, let's take the first two stanzas.
> 
> (Full text here: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~DRBR/ransom2.html)
> 
> Here goes nothing ...
> 
> CAVEAT -- I'm not sure whether this is how I *would* scan the two stanzas:
> I was consciously trying to impose a dipodic reading on the rhythm of the
> lines.
> 
>    /    X     \   X  X      X    /  X  X    \
> Captain Carpenter rose up in his prime
> 
>   /   X   X    \ X     X     X        /  X    \
> Put on his pistols and went riding out
> 
> X    X   X       /     \        /    X     X  X    \
> But had got wellnigh nowhere at that time
> 
> X   X    /    X   X    \   X     / X   \
> Till he fell in with ladies in a rout.
> 
> 
> 
> X   /  X  X X   \ X    X   /   X   \
> It was a pretty lady and all her train
> 
>    X        /        X    \     X    /  X      X    X   \
> That played with him so sweetly but before
> 
>   X    /      X     \   X   X    /        X    X  X     \
> An hour she'd taken a sword with all her main
> 
>   X        /        X   X   X    /     X      X    \
> And twined him of his nose for evermore.
> 
> Observations:  The two stanzas don't seem to work in the same way.  I think
> I can just-about justify a scansion of the first stanza that turns on four
> stresses per line, but I'm aware that if I weren't pushing it, I'd be more
> likely to give each line of the second stanza five metrical stresses ...
> 
> I suspect, larger issues aside, I'm on a hiding to nothing here, in trying
> to scan CC in dipodic terms.
> 
> :-(
> 
> Going to sleep on it, and come back and try again without trying to impose a
> dipodic scansion, see what happens.
> 
> Also, i think i may have to go beyond two stanzas ...
> 
> <double glum>
> 
> Robin
> 

I can sympathize, both because I think of scansion as at best a poor visual 
equivalent to what the ear apprehends--intellectual synesthesia, if you 
will--and because it is so subjective.  Now I do have a recording of Ransom reading 
the poem, and so I'll mark just the strong stresses as I hear him reading them, 
assuming that all the other syllables are either half-stressed or unstressed 
(what else could they be?).


  /            /                   /               /
Captain Carpenter rose up in his prime

 /               /                 /               /
Put on his pistols and went riding out

              /            /    /                       /
But had got wellnigh nowhere at that time

           /              /         /       /
Till he fell in with ladies in a rout.



              /        /            /          /
It was a pretty lady and all her train

          /                     /      /                   /
That played with him so sweetly but before

      /                            /               /         /
An hour she'd taken a sword with all her main

           /                        /         /        /
And twined him of his nose for evermore.


Now I'll admit this looks pretty crazy, but I'm from North Carolina and 
Ransom was from Tennessee, and his southern elocution is not foreign to my ear  (or 
"eah-uh").  The other thing to note is that all of these lines are 
decasyllabic, if you'll admit the ellision (synaresis) between "lady and," "hour" 
counted as a monosyllable, and the conventional syncope of "taken" to "ta'en."  I'm 
going to take a look at the rest of this poem with this in mind; it may be 
that Ransom is writing a base of decasyllabic lines (iambic pentameters, which 
the last certainly is) but consciously departing from regular alternation of 
unstressed and stressed syllables to come up with a four-beat accentual line that 
maintains the regularity of the syllabic.  If so--how droll!
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From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 24 23:23:08 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:23:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <1ce.117aedcd.2ca3b99c@cs.com>

I counted syllables in every line, allowing that in some cases "Carpenter" 
counted three and in other cases counted two: "Carpn'ter."  It's interesting 
that almost every line could be justified as decasyllabic.  But he's 
erratic--observing standard elisions in some cases and not in others: "Captain Carpenter 
rode many a time" gets a full ten.  Line 26 uses a traditional syncope: "devil" 
as one syllable. Line 40 works if you count "whether" as one syllable; if you 
can count "ever" as one, as countless poets have done, "whether" could work 
as well.  In the next line, "It was the neatest knave that ever was seen," he 
does exactly that.  Lines 42 and 44 might be counted as hendecasyllabic except 
that the feminine endings here ("bower" and "tower") also belong to the list 
of similar sounding words ("flow'r") that have traditionally been contracted.  
Line 48 is a problem, except that "between" has often been shortened to 
"'tween."  "Citizen husband soldier and scholar enow"--twelve syllables to the 
eye--is effectively shortened to ten both by syncope ("cit'zen") and the deliberate 
lack of commas.  I'd always wondered at what Ransom was doing metrically with 
this poem, and I now suspect that he was playing a subtle little metrical 
game--using the iambic pentameter as his point of departure (see how the last two 
lines enforce a standard pentameter reading through the repetitions) but 
subverting it into a four-beat line that somehow maintained a syllable-count.  In 
other words, what I find here is something that seems almost the opposite of 
Hopkins, who claimed to be maintaining regular accents but not total syllables. 
 Very curious indeed.
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From anny.ballardini  Thu Sep 25 02:30:13 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:30:13 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F71B454.25221.9D3341@localhost>
Message-ID: <000001c3832f$3970c820$db1c2dd5@anny>

No, I was not talking of Picasso, Marcus, the blue and rose period, but of
this other minor who made a fuss with series and series of only one-color
paintings, no way I can find his name anywhere in my mind. Let's give him
for granted.
On the other hand I do not agree with the way you separate theory from
poetry.

If for example I have to theorize about space, I will have to use
astronomical words and I will have to know at least some elementary physics
and mathematics. And accept their rules. Since we are talking of poetry we
will have to consider the intrinsic dynamics of poetry. Thus a poetry which
states that the identicality of an object can be made different, according
to parameters which escape physics, pragmatism and certain rational concrete
theories, since it is a sameness subdued to e/motions, and it is up to the
Poet to detect those emotions to show the complexity of human life (besides
taxes). We will therefore have to find a theory able to open itself _through
words and acceptance of the same_ to the new concepts depicted.
Besides that when I talk of the _same_ I don't mean the same color, which
meets the absurdity of the notion, since even if you squeeze the same tube
on the same canvas, it is impossible to give the same color to the same
surface. That is why computerized paintings were the great success with
monochromatic canvases. For the Painter it is impossible to paint such an
even surface, we are electric eclectic beings, you like it or not, and our
hand with the brush, if trained to paint, still follows the myriad of inputs
our brains receive every second and by it every subdivision of that same
second.

And about what you say of Bob Grumman, still along this line, his perception
can be trained to feel red/blue differences where other people simply see
darker/lighter. And on this I think there is no need to develop further.
Anybody can see the difference between a Maestro and a beginner, just to go
back to our neutral ground of colors. What for a beginner is red, for a
Maestro becomes thousands of reds, the same goes for blue, or yellow.
:-) I like to talk of colors.
Take care, anny

From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>


> On 24 Sep 2003 at 14:59, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> > ... one can say that identical things are different and this
> > is the most enlightening spark in poetry.<<
>
> Well maybe it's a spark when you're actually writing poetry, but when
> you're writing about poetry, when you're theorizing about poetry,
> calling two identical things different is simply a mistake, just as
> it would be if we were talking about any other subject.
>
> > ... there was a painter (don't
> > ask me who in this moment) who started painting only in one color, or
> > blue, or red, or yellow, painting after painting. And I also did it
> > for a short time. That is where you understand the different shades of
> > the same color, and how to mix colors so that the basic one does not
> > lose its intensity.<<
>
> This is either disingenuous, equivocation, or a simple mistake in
> understanding the notion of 'the same'. When we talk about 'the same
> color' in the context of a painter's "blue period" we mean a
> different thing than when we talk about 'the same color' when we're
> trying to match up two pieces of stained glass, or match the color of
> a wood repair to the rest of the staircase or frame (for example).
> The notion that there are differences in blues that are all still
> blue is a different notion from the difference between blue and red
> and yellow.
>
> There is no evidence in Bob Grumman's tone or content that he intends
> that "free verse" is an "among blues" kind of difference; in fact he
> has explicitly stated that "free verse" is "a different game"
> altogether, which sounds as if he is talking about the differences
> between something more along the red/blue difference.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From marcus  Thu Sep 25 09:39:01 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:39:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
In-Reply-To: <000001c3832f$3970c820$db1c2dd5@anny>
Message-ID: <3F72B7B5.23245.7DB943@localhost>

Shortly after World War II, a philosopher named John Wisdom published 
an article called "Gods" in The Proceedings of the Aristotelian 
Society. He argued that the difference between religious perspectives 
and philosophical perspectives of the world is irreconcilable, and 
this gap entails a particular attitude toward what folks on either 
side would agree is the same set of facts about the world. He 
illustrated with a sort of parable.

Imagine two people returning to a garden long abandoned. It's as 
weedy and overrun, but they both notice that some plants have 
thrived. The first says "There must be a gardener who comes and cares 
for the garden." They ask neighbors if they've seen anyone and are 
told no, no one ever goes there. The first says "The gardener must 
come at night," while  the second says "Can't be that, someone would 
have heard him and if someone were tending the place they'd have done 
something about all these weeds." The first says "No, I'm telling you 
-- look at the arrangement of what's been saved. There's an order, a 
sense of purpose and beauty." 

They look around with more care. They find evidence that seems to 
support the beauty and order claims of the gardener hypothesis, but 
they also see things that look malicious. They compare the garden in 
question to other gardens they both agree count as "untended." In the 
process, each learns just what the other learns in the way of gardens 
in general as well as the garden in question. 

After all this, the first still says "There's a gardener" while the 
second still holds that there's no such thing. One says "I believe," 
the other says "I don't."

Wisdom points out that the difference between the two can't be a 
matter of expectations about the garden, because both are on equal 
footing, there. The difference between the two is a matter of 
attitude toward or about what they both see. Their disagreement isn't 
over the facts, but over how each values the facts. 

At a symposium about five years later, this parable is the starting 
point for a discussion between three other philosophers (Flew, 
Mitchell, and Hare) about the role of falsification in statements 
that can be decided to be true or false. The basic question is "Can 
we know a statement to be true when we have no conditions under which 
the statement may be seen to be false?" 

Flew retells Wisdom's parable and speaks for the second investigator -
- the one who finally asks "What's the real difference between this 
invisible, always elusive gardener, and an imaginary gardener? What 
would it take for you to say 'Okay, I was wrong, there's no 
gardener'?" 

This second, more skeptical, inquirer wants to know why the first's 
hypothesis -- "There's a gardener" -- hasn't been killed off by 
inches, because the original claim has been so qualified, 
requalified, re-requalified, hedged in and tweaked so many times (he 
comes at night, he's invisible to cameras and can't be sniffed by 
bloodhounds, he has a plan for the garden but it's not one we 
understand...) that it's nothing at all like the original bold claim. 
If the first inquirer can't say with any certainty what would have to 
happen to cause that first inquirer to say "There's no gardener" -- 
if there's nothing that could show that statement false -- then it's 
unclear what could make it true for that first inquirer who made the 
claim, or for anyone else.

That's the basis of my objection to the notion that Anny Ballardini 
proposes: 

> Thus a poetry which states that the identicality of an object can be
> made different, according to parameters which escape physics,
> pragmatism and certain rational concrete theories, since it is a
> sameness subdued to emotions, and it is up to the Poet to detect
> those emotions to show the complexity of human life (besides taxes).
> We will therefore have to find a theory able to open itself _through
> words and acceptance of the same_ to the new concepts depicted.<<

because to me that sounds very religious, sounds like a determination 
to believe irrespective of any inquiry.







From halvard  Thu Sep 25 11:16:03 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:16:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ferlinghetti at 84; City Lights at 50
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEEDHGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

In case you've missed it, there's a story in the arts section of this
morning New York Times about Lawrence Ferlinghetti and his
City Lights bookstore. The text is below, and the NYT link should
take you (if your free online subscription is in order) to text and
pictures.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/25/books/25LIGH.html?th

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beat Mystique Endures at a San Francisco Landmark
By DEAN E. MURPHY

SAN FRANCISCO, Sept. 23 ? The shelves at the City Lights
bookstore were pushed aside, and two chairs were arranged
against a wall near the erotica section. It was standing room only
as Lawrence Ferlinghetti, San Francisco's celebrity poet and a
founder of the bookstore, took a seat with a friendly, twinkling
smile.

Mr. Ferlinghetti was joined by a longtime friend, Eric Bauersfeld,
a radio producer and dramatist, who ambled to a microphone
and started the advertised event: an intimate evening of conversation
in celebration of City Lights' 50th anniversary.

"This is the sort of thing we would do," Mr. Bauersfeld recalled,
unfolding an advertisement for a cremation company. "Pick up a
simple thing like this and talk about it." He then recited the ad with
dramatic flourishes, as Mr. Ferlinghetti gazed in amusement.

And so it went one summer night: kidding about the dead and dying,
discussions about the expanding universe, even an assessment of the
unstable yellows in Turner's landscapes by a pair of octogenarians in
a bookstore of strangers curious about City Lights' storied past.

"When I came to readings here in the 70's, I knew three-quarters of
the people in the store, while tonight I saw one person I knew," said
Gerald Nicosia, who wrote "Memory Babe," a biography of Jack
Kerouac, the author of "On the Road" and another City Lights fixture.

"Even 20 years ago there was a community of artists and writers and
photographers in this neighborhood, but that has all broken up," Mr.
Nicosia continued. "Now people come from all over the world just
hoping to find a glimpse of what used to be."

The staged evening at City Lights was typical of the type of 50th
anniversary events that are continuing all year at the store. Last week
it was the scholar and author Michael Parenti's turn to face the bookstore
audience. Mr. Parenti has had several of his books published by City
Lights.

For Mr. Ferlinghetti, these events are an uncommon concession to the
market forces. He chafes at the mention of City Lights as a business and
is a reluctant devotee of the Beat nostalgia that draws masses to his corner
of Broadway and Columbus Avenue, a wedge of North Beach real estate
with its back to Chinatown and "its front end facing the Western world,"
as he puts it.

When Mr. Ferlinghetti's conversation with Mr. Bauersfeld was over, the
strangers, many wearing backpacks and chattering in foreign languages,
lined up for him to sign "The Beat Generation in San Francisco," a literary
tour guide by Bill Morgan, published by City Lights. The opening pages are
dedicated to City Lights itself, the first all-paperback bookstore in the United
States, which is described as the city's literary "head, heart and undersoul"
and the embodiment of the "beatific 50-year history of the Beat generation."

Mr. Ferlinghetti, who published Allen Ginsberg's "Howl" in 1956 and was
arrested the next year on obscenity charges for selling it (he was acquitted),
is one of the most notable figures from the Beat era. But now he insists far
too much has been made of the Beat phenomenon that established City Lights
as a literary mainstay of America's alternative left.

"It is really much more interesting today than in the 50's," Mr. Ferlinghetti, now
84, said in an interview. "There has been all of this mythologizing of the 50's and
the Beat generation in San Francisco and so forth, but it has been wildly overdone,
because it was a really depressing period, I thought, on account of the general
repressive atmosphere and the political climate.`

Mr. Ferlinghetti described the Beats in San Francisco as "New York
carpetbaggers" who were fixated on an America that doesn't exist anymore. He
gets much more excited these days browsing the offerings in his bookstore from
places like Latin America, Asia and Africa than revisiting the writings of his
1950's contemporaries.

"The most interesting writing now is coming out of third world authors and
women," he said. "It takes hunger and passion to create great books."

Yet in the era of George W. Bush and John Ashcroft, the dissident Beat voices
are enjoying a renaissance of sorts in antiwar strongholds like San Francisco,
and Mr. Ferlinghetti and City Lights are once again feeling good about being
simultaneously marginalized and essential.

Mr. Ferlinghetti complains that the mass media all but ignore his antiwar poems,
but he insists his work and that of his bookstore remain "the intellectual
livelihood of civilization."

"Civilization progresses through intellectual ideas, through learning and literacy
and anything that George II doesn't have," he said. "I care about the integrity more
than the impact, publishing what you really think and not just saying something."

It sounds like a justification for a failed enterprise, but the store had its best
summer of sales ever. Paul Yamazaki, a book buyer for the store, attributed
the surge to the 50th anniversary and, as much as it might make Mr. Ferlinghetti
bristle, to the store's association with the generation of Ginsberg, Kerouac, Neal
Cassady, Gregory Corso and Gary Snyder.

Mr. Ferlinghetti says he understands the recurring Beat nostalgia, particularly in
an America that he complains is agonizingly devoid of modern equivalents of that
generation, which produced artists and intellectuals willing to speak up even when
they were condemned.

"It is nostalgia, but also, the world, and especially America, needs the Beat message
these days, this technocratic age, this pragmatic age, this materialist and militarist
age," Mr. Ferlinghetti said. "Everything the Beats stood for is opposed to that."

City Lights has never made much money. Mr. Ferlinghetti says he has still not received
a penny in royalties from the first book published by the bookstore, his own "Pictures
of the Gone World" from 1955. Though he has long since delegated the store's daily
operations, he created a nonprofit foundation several years ago to help keep City
Lights financially afloat and the way he likes it: without a coffee shop or a New York
Times best sellers rack or any misgivings about closing for a day to allow its 19
employees to join antiwar street protests.

The store's financial security is all the more essential because of the continuous
changes to its neighborhood. North Beach is swamped with tourists, overpriced
apartments and trendy restaurants. Before Mr. Ferlinghetti bought the City Lights
building in the mid-1990's, Mr. Yamazaki said, "it was always a worry for us
about what would happen to us, whether there would be a Starbucks on this
corner."

Yet in some respects, old hands lament, the changes have already made City Lights
an anachronism in the very place that made it possible. Most struggling artists and
writers have left, moving to the lower-rent Mission district or places outside the city.
The neighborhood has that once-removed sense of a museum, with streets bearing
honorary names of famous writers (Mr. Ferlinghetti has one) and the California
Historical Society offering walking tours.

"I am not sure there is a center of literary life in San Francisco anymore," said Mr.
Nicosia, the Kerouac biographer. "Money and power have corrupted this city.
Lawrence gets interviewed a lot because of his celebrity, but those who aren't
celebrities nobody is paying attention to."

Mr. Snyder, who lived on nearby Telegraph Hill in the mid-50's when he worked
the docks and wrote poetry, now lives on a dirt road about 25 miles from Nevada
City, Calif., in the remote Sierra foothills. He no longer considers the store a "must"
stop on his San Francisco itinerary. Still, he maintains, its role in history is secure.
"It seems to me it is beside the point," Mr. Snyder said, "to worry about how long
it will survive."

--30--





From paul.lake  Thu Sep 25 11:34:27 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:34:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
In-Reply-To: <a2.3c8e645c.2ca36c11@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BB987532.557A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/24/03 4:52 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/24/03 4:04:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
> 
>> 
>>  By contrast, I just checked the new Norton Anthology of Contemporary
> Poetry.
>>  Using the same 1945 birthday cut-off date as the editors of Rebel Angels, I
>>  note that there is not one American New Formalist poet among the 29 poets
>>  included. Two UK poets with formalist leanings, Paul Muldoon and James
>>  Fenton, get in, but none of them evil upstart American Neos, who must be
>>  excluded, lest they get a foot in the door of otherwise respectable
>>  ?inclusive? anthologies.
>>  
> But The Norton Anthology of Poetry (fourth ed.) did have Gioia, Leithauser,
> Daniel Hall, Shahid Ali, Corn (born '43 but who's counting), Schnackenberg...
> In real estate the quip is: Location, location, location. In anthologies
> its: Editor, editor, editor.
> Finnegan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
You're right. The editor of the Norton for poetry is Mary Jo Salter, wife of
Liethauser, and a formal poet herself.

Paul


---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From elemenope  Thu Sep 25 01:42:26 2003
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 13:42:26 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt? (Anny Ballardini)  Re: Blurt? (Marcus Bales)
Message-ID: <a05100301bb982df4c0ec@[204.215.202.111]>

At 01:08 PM +0800 9/25/03, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
>Painters who pursued a investigation of the chromatics of color: 
>Josef Albers, Brice Marden, Ad Reinhardt, Frank Stella, Agnes 
>Martin, Barnett Newman.  However, the painter whom Anny Ballardini 
>is resurrecting: Mark Rothko.  ROTHKO switched on the light of this 
>particular aesthetic investigation in much the same way as Pollock 
>broke through with his Abstract Expressionist violent drip, whip and 
>cast-the-paint-can paintings nearly a half century ago.


>As to Bales.  I keep thinking of mountains.  Mountains of blocked hay.


+++++++++

RD

ELEMENOPE Productions

"A Satisfied Buyer of the Korzybski Chair"





-- 



From anny.ballardini  Thu Sep 25 14:04:48 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:04:48 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt? (Anny Ballardini)  Re: Blurt? (Marcus Bales)
References: <a05100301bb982df4c0ec@[204.215.202.111]>
Message-ID: <00c501c38390$13ef8760$3a1c2dd5@anny>

Thank you dear Elemenope,
no I was not thinking of Rothko, I (me) was referring to a local minor
painter, whose existence is not on the net and I do not have here my
catalogues to find him. I do anyhow recognize Rothko's work, and my thank
you in the heading is for resurrecting all these people. What my
_un-rememberable_ painter did was very similar to what Bales' intuited, as a
matter of fact he maybe copied the basic idea from Picasso, that is a series
of precise landscapes all blue or green or yellow or...
I am here buried by work, so I can only answer this brief message,
care, anny

From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" <elemenope at icubed.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 7:42 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt? (Anny Ballardini) Re: Blurt? (Marcus Bales)


> At 01:08 PM +0800 9/25/03, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
> >Painters who pursued a investigation of the chromatics of color:
> >Josef Albers, Brice Marden, Ad Reinhardt, Frank Stella, Agnes
> >Martin, Barnett Newman.  However, the painter whom Anny Ballardini
> >is resurrecting: Mark Rothko.  ROTHKO switched on the light of this
> >particular aesthetic investigation in much the same way as Pollock
> >broke through with his Abstract Expressionist violent drip, whip and
> >cast-the-paint-can paintings nearly a half century ago.
>
>
> >As to Bales.  I keep thinking of mountains.  Mountains of blocked hay.
>
>
> +++++++++
>
> RD
>
> ELEMENOPE Productions
>
> "A Satisfied Buyer of the Korzybski Chair"
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From robin.hamilton2  Thu Sep 25 14:32:28 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:32:28 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt? (Anny Ballardini)  Re: Blurt? (Marcus Bales)
References: <a05100301bb982df4c0ec@[204.215.202.111]>
Message-ID: <005d01c38393$609e63d0$acc58051@MyPC>

Richard:

>However, the painter whom Anny Ballardini
>is resurrecting: Mark Rothko.  ROTHKO switched on the light of this
>particular aesthetic investigation in much the same way as Pollock
>broke through with his Abstract Expressionist violent drip, whip and
>cast-the-paint-can paintings nearly a half century ago.

By a species of synchronicity, I've currently got about a dozen Rothko
reproductions stacked against the wall.  How I came by them is curious but
irrelevant, but initially I didn't really like them at all -- I'm not much
of a one for abstract minimalism -- but I find they're beginning to grow on
me.

"Like fungus, daddy?" my Darling Only Son said.

> "A Satisfied Buyer of the Korzybski Chair"

But is it the same chair when it springs back?  Korzyski did cross my mind,
too, in this context.

"The map is not the country -- except in mathematics."

Robin





From anny.ballardini  Thu Sep 25 16:58:35 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 22:58:35 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <3F72B7B5.23245.7DB943@localhost>
Message-ID: <002b01c383a7$c9f29040$3a1c2dd5@anny>

The final statement of Marcus Bales, I am adopting his strategy of putting
the interlocutor in the third person - by this he diminishes the strength of
the frontal attack and directly calls into the discussion all the potential
readers (as if we did not know before that they were there, but thanks to
his Grace now they are included) - an exchange becomes a trial - or you win
and I die or you die and I win, does not leave any opening for a dialogue,
since such statement makes my objection sublime, beyond what is human and
forges it into a sculptured position outside what is inherent to human
things. By making use of a cunning remark on what I wrote:
"..to me that sounds very religious.."
he practically uproots my thought, and eliminates it tout court.
Best, Anny

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Blurt?


> Shortly after World War II, a philosopher named John Wisdom published
> an article called "Gods" in The Proceedings of the Aristotelian
> Society. He argued that the difference between religious perspectives
> and philosophical perspectives of the world is irreconcilable, and
> this gap entails a particular attitude toward what folks on either
> side would agree is the same set of facts about the world. He
> illustrated with a sort of parable.
>
> Imagine two people returning to a garden long abandoned. It's as
> weedy and overrun, but they both notice that some plants have
> thrived. The first says "There must be a gardener who comes and cares
> for the garden." They ask neighbors if they've seen anyone and are
> told no, no one ever goes there. The first says "The gardener must
> come at night," while  the second says "Can't be that, someone would
> have heard him and if someone were tending the place they'd have done
> something about all these weeds." The first says "No, I'm telling you
> -- look at the arrangement of what's been saved. There's an order, a
> sense of purpose and beauty."
>
> They look around with more care. They find evidence that seems to
> support the beauty and order claims of the gardener hypothesis, but
> they also see things that look malicious. They compare the garden in
> question to other gardens they both agree count as "untended." In the
> process, each learns just what the other learns in the way of gardens
> in general as well as the garden in question.
>
> After all this, the first still says "There's a gardener" while the
> second still holds that there's no such thing. One says "I believe,"
> the other says "I don't."
>
> Wisdom points out that the difference between the two can't be a
> matter of expectations about the garden, because both are on equal
> footing, there. The difference between the two is a matter of
> attitude toward or about what they both see. Their disagreement isn't
> over the facts, but over how each values the facts.
>
> At a symposium about five years later, this parable is the starting
> point for a discussion between three other philosophers (Flew,
> Mitchell, and Hare) about the role of falsification in statements
> that can be decided to be true or false. The basic question is "Can
> we know a statement to be true when we have no conditions under which
> the statement may be seen to be false?"
>
> Flew retells Wisdom's parable and speaks for the second investigator -
> - the one who finally asks "What's the real difference between this
> invisible, always elusive gardener, and an imaginary gardener? What
> would it take for you to say 'Okay, I was wrong, there's no
> gardener'?"
>
> This second, more skeptical, inquirer wants to know why the first's
> hypothesis -- "There's a gardener" -- hasn't been killed off by
> inches, because the original claim has been so qualified,
> requalified, re-requalified, hedged in and tweaked so many times (he
> comes at night, he's invisible to cameras and can't be sniffed by
> bloodhounds, he has a plan for the garden but it's not one we
> understand...) that it's nothing at all like the original bold claim.
> If the first inquirer can't say with any certainty what would have to
> happen to cause that first inquirer to say "There's no gardener" -- 
> if there's nothing that could show that statement false -- then it's
> unclear what could make it true for that first inquirer who made the
> claim, or for anyone else.
>
> That's the basis of my objection to the notion that Anny Ballardini
> proposes:
>
> > Thus a poetry which states that the identicality of an object can be
> > made different, according to parameters which escape physics,
> > pragmatism and certain rational concrete theories, since it is a
> > sameness subdued to emotions, and it is up to the Poet to detect
> > those emotions to show the complexity of human life (besides taxes).
> > We will therefore have to find a theory able to open itself _through
> > words and acceptance of the same_ to the new concepts depicted.<<
>
> because to me that sounds very religious, sounds like a determination
> to believe irrespective of any inquiry.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From robin.hamilton2  Thu Sep 25 18:15:39 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:15:39 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics -- The Cap'n
References: <1ce.117aedcd.2ca3b99c@cs.com>
Message-ID: <010601c383b2$8da4c8f0$acc58051@MyPC>

<<
I counted syllables in every line, allowing that in some cases "Carpenter"
counted three and in other cases counted two: "Carpn'ter."  It's interesting
that almost every line could be justified as decasyllabic.

<SNIP>

I now suspect that he was playing a subtle little metrical game--using the
iambic pentameter as his point of departure (see how the last two lines
enforce a standard pentameter reading through the repetitions) but
subverting it into a four-beat line that somehow maintained a
syllable-count.
>>

The more I think about it, and the more I look at it, the more this seems to
be spot-on -- start from a ten-syllable line with four metrical stresses,
and go on from there.  This would be confirmed by your description of
Ransom's reading giving each line four stresses.

(I wasn't always sure where you intended the stresses to fall in your
previous email -- not you, but the fault of my email software chewing things
up and spitting them out different.)

One thing that did strike me (not narrowly metrical, but connected)
was the last three stanzas:

    God's mercy rest on Captain Carpenter now
    I thought him Sirs an honest gentleman
    Citizen husband soldier and scholar enow
    Let jangling kites eat of him if they can.

    But God's deep curses follow after those
    That shore him of his goodly nose and ears
    His legs and strong arms at the two elbows
    And eyes that had not watered seventy years.

    The curse of hell upon the sleek upstart
    That got the Captain finally on his back
    And took the red red vitals of his heart
    And made the kites to whet their beaks clack clack.

( ... the shift to the speaker directly addressing the reader is a bit like
what happens in "The Equilibrists", from "Ah, the strict lovers, they are
ruined now! / I cried in anger ..." on, but that's not directly relevant.
It did come into my head, though, when I focused on the end of CC.  For what
it's worth.)

But to go back to the final three stanzas, it's (not just) Shakespeare, and
(not just) the ballad, but more specific.

OK, Captain Carpenter doesn't have his noble mind o'erthrown -- indeed, it's
the only thing that *isn't* -- but "Citizen husband soldier and scholar
enow" reminds me of Ophelia on Hamlet:  "The courtier's, soldier's,
scholar's, eye, tongue, sword ..."

And "Let jangling kites eat of him if they can" isn't just from any ballad,
it calls up "The Twa Corbies":

        As I was walking all alane,
        I heard twa corbies making a mane;
        The tane unto the t'other say,
        'Where sall we gang and dine to-day,
        Where sall we gang and dine to-day?'
                    ...

        'Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane,
        And I'll pike out his bonny blue een;
        Wi ae lock o his gowden hair
        We'll theek our nest when it grows bare,
        We'll theek our nest when it grows bare.'

(OK, kites aren't either crows or ravens, but by the Elizabethan period, all
three -- c.f. _Volpone_ -- were considered as carrion-eaters.)

So if this runs, at the end of the poem Ransom ups the ballad ante at the
very same moment that he brings in a pretty explicit Shakespeare (and behind
that, the iambic pentameter) allusion.

Which would tie-into the 4-stress-ten-syllables suggestion -- and that
Ransom was VERY aware of what he was doing, metrically (and in terms of
shifts of tone and register) in the poem.

Robin








From JforJames  Thu Sep 25 20:34:03 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:34:03 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics
Message-ID: <6d.19a60bc6.2ca4e37b@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/25/03 11:42:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:

> 
>  You're right. The editor of the Norton for poetry is Mary Jo Salter, wife 
of
>  Liethauser, and a formal poet herself.
Paul, and, it's true, the Contemporary Norton diminishes itself 
by excluding the N.F. movement.
Finnegan



From JforJames  Thu Sep 25 20:45:29 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:45:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Review
Message-ID: <172.202fe019.2ca4e629@aol.com>

Subj:    CPR Newsletter
Date:   9/24/03 10:35:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   contemporarypoetryreview at lb.bcentral.com (Contemporary Poetry Review)

Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter

A Journal Devoted Exclusively to the Criticism of Poetry?
(www.cprw.com)

This Month
?
Garrick Davis interviews the new editor of Poetry magazine, Christian Wiman.

Regan Good reviews the Shakespeare criticism of American poet John Berryman.

Paul Lake refutes postmodern linguistic theory in The Enchanted Loom.

Justin Quinn considers the career of American poet A. R. Ammons.

D. H. Tracy discusses Hart Crane and the American epic poem.


Regards,
Garrick Davis?
Editor
Contemporary Poetry Review





From JforJames  Thu Sep 25 20:52:15 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:52:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
Message-ID: <f8.30d3163a.2ca4e7bf@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/25/03 5:05:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:

> beyond what is human and
>  forges it into a sculptured position outside what is inherent to human
>  things. By making use of a cunning remark on what I wrote:
>  "..to me that sounds very religious.."
>  he practically uproots my thought, and eliminates it tout court.
>  Best, Anny
Anny, I think you win, if we take Wm. James seriously, and I
do: Science or reason or logic, is no better or worse than
religion as a belief system. We only act (make poetry) because
we believe.
Finnegan



From JforJames  Thu Sep 25 20:58:02 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:58:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Machado poem
Message-ID: <122.268a1c5c.2ca4e91a@aol.com>

THE HOUSE I LOVED SO MUCH

The house I loved so much
where she lived,
over a mound of broken walls and floors
and flattened debris, now is only
a black termite-eaten
collapsing skeleton of wood.

The moon is pouring down
her pristine light in dreams that plate
the windows silver. Shabby and sad
I go walking along the old street.


Antonio Machado
translated by Willis Barnstone

---------------------------------
copyright (c) 2003 Antonio Machado, English translation by Willis Barnstone. 


From Rsgwynn1  Thu Sep 25 21:02:38 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 21:02:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics -- The Cap'n
Message-ID: <158.251c7d09.2ca4ea2e@cs.com>

More on this later, for company's coming (my brother), but the last three 
stanzas, as you note, are pretty much regular iambic pentameter, a shift which 
does add more gravity to the poem's conclusion.
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From kpaul  Thu Sep 25 21:12:05 2003
From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:12:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
In-Reply-To: <f8.30d3163a.2ca4e7bf@aol.com>
References: <f8.30d3163a.2ca4e7bf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20030925201110.S45560@kpaul.spinweb.net>

I've seen poetry move mtns...

-kpaul

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> We only act (make poetry) because
> we believe.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From robin.hamilton2  Fri Sep 26 01:44:08 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 06:44:08 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Newfo poetics -- The Cap'n
References: <158.251c7d09.2ca4ea2e@cs.com>
Message-ID: <007e01c383f2$71b53090$29b28051@MyPC>

<<
More on this later, for company's coming (my brother), but the last three
stanzas, as you note, are pretty much regular iambic pentameter, a shift
which does add more gravity to the poem's conclusion.
>>

K.  But as a further point, if we allow the /Hamlet/ link in the third-last
stanza, could we push this further back -- "It was the neatest knave that
ever was seen" as a deliberate calling-up of Osric?

{And you give me too much credit for locating the final three stanzas as
iambic.  At that point, I was simply hanging-on to your coat-tails.  But if
we do want to identify a point where the poem makes a definite shift into
relatively-regular iambics, wouldn't it be with that neatest knave line?  I
haven't done a line-by-line scan, but my ear says everything thereafter
*could* be described as iambic.  Well, depending on how loosely or tightly
you define "iambic" -- Donne, even if not Pope.

(I came on the poem as a teenager in Glasgow in the sixties, via the Michael
Roberts /Faber Modern Verse/ anthology, and it was what first got me
fascinated by Ransom.  But one result is that it lives in my head in neither
a North Carolina nor a Tennessee accent, but in West-of-Scotland
middle-class urban Scots.  This may be a factor in the way I read it.  <g>)

Robin



From robin.hamilton2  Fri Sep 26 04:45:33 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:45:33 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Buffalo98 and Neoformalism ...
References: <158.251c7d09.2ca4ea2e@cs.com> <007e01c383f2$71b53090$29b28051@MyPC>
Message-ID: <00b601c3840a$8c9acb00$29b28051@MyPC>

This is the sort of question that only arises late at night or early in the
morning, and is so fuzzy that it can only be asked at that point-in-time,
but ...

    Were any Neoformalists involved in Buffalo in 98?

Background:  Earlier tonight (or this morning) I found myself involved in
writing a long, complicated, and mildly traumatic email that involved, among
other things, an attempt to analogise LangPo to anything in the UK.

Briefly, if this works at all, Charles Bernstein (Buffalo) is J.H.Prynne
(Cambridge).  So far so easy.

[Ha! It gets worse.]

But that being the case, who among the US LangPoets would parallel Veronica
Forrest-Thomson (a Glasgow poet, protege of Prynne, born in 1947 and died in
1975)?

Part of what forced me into confronting some of these issues was that I'd
been asked a day or so ago (backchannel) the question, "Why was Individual X
banned from List Y?"

I put-off even beginning to try to answer this question for two reasons -- 
one (obvious one, for me at least) is that in many ways I'm a bit too
closely involved in some of the questions I was asked.

Another is that I was glumly aware that, for better or worse, at some point
I'd end up saying, "You can't really begin to address this unless you go
back to Buffalo98."

The cascade effect ... I became directly involved in this issue when I was a
member of british-poetry at the time of the Lacan Letters Affair.  Fiasco.
Leaving aside what happened on the two major British lists -- british-poetry
and poetryetc -- this sent me across to subsubpoetics to see what was
happening there.

My, MY, for a poor simple Brit, that was a learning experience and a half
...

The knock-forward effect of the subsub meltdown is still creating tiny waves
this side of the Pond, but it also stimulated me to do a bit of research.

[Sorry, this is one of those convoluted emails that must look as it it were
written by rhezus monkey on speed but honest, it's really that I'm trying to
put too many things together at once.  Self-indulgent, perhaps, but not as
loopy as it must look.]

One of the things that interested me, still does, is the dynamic of lists -- 
Brit/US idiom clashes, status games, the whole ball of wax crossing
academic/poetry lists.  I first began to focus on it when I decided that the
simplest way to describe Milton-L was in terms of the noyau phenomenon, and
began to work on a (still in progress) piece entitled, "Internet Discussion
Lists Considered in Terms of Primate Territoriality".

It seemed a good idea at the time, the noyau concept as a lock on the
difference between Brit and US academic lists.  Milton-L is *so* noyau ...

Leaving aside the dubious epistomological basic for this, as the writer I
was using (Robert Ardrey) as a source for my metaphors was, even in the
sixties, not exactly cutting-edge (but hey, I like his work), when I dipped
my toe in The Last Days of subsub, it was impossible (for me, at least) to
map this onto primate territoriality -- the metaphor that sprang to my mind
was a bucket of rabid pirhana fish ...

Whatever (if anyone's still with me), I became interested in just how
directly some of the events still resonating on the major poetry lists on
both sides of the Pond go back directly to Buff98.

Well ... There's at least one member of this list I *know* goes back to
then, and is here rather than elsewhere because of the Cascade ...

But to try to drag this back to something vaguely to do with new poetry
today ...  I wasn't around Buff98, but the archives are extant, so I checked
those.  Then I asked around people I knew who were there at the time -- 
What's your take on Buff98?  Fascinating.  I got some stuff that isn't, as
far as I know, publically documented.

But earlier tonight, I realised that, with one exception, no one I had asked
could be even *remotely* described as a Neoformalist.

Well, given it was Buff98 and LangPo I was asking about, maybe this isn't
that strange.

So ... any Neoformalists around Buff98 with Interesting Insights to
contribute?

Warned you this was one of those drifty posts ...

<g>

Tangentially, Norton4 has come up on another thread with Mary Jo Slater
cited as editor.  There are three editors -- also Margaret Fergusson and Jon
Stallworthy.  I presume Jon Stallworthy is mostly responsible for the Brit
selection ...

But taking b. 1945 as a cut-off date, the selection of Brits (well, three
English, one Northern Irish, no Scots or Welsh) -- Wendy Cope, James Fenton,
Paul Muldoon and Carol Ann Duffy -- simply doesn't make *any* sense other
than as an impressionistic spatter.

I say this despite being delighted that Wendy Cope is included -- let's hear
it for well-written light verse!  But she wouldn't, I suspect, be included
in a comparable anthology here ...

Paul Muldoon's one of those cases where it seems impossible to map a UK
writer onto US parameters.  Is he a Safe Formalist or the Acceptable Face of
Establishment LangPo?

Fenton.  Well.  I think he writes like an angel, but again, if you're
picking four post-45 writers, he wouldn't here, I'd guess, be the first name
in the frame.

Oh, I suppose all I'm saying is both that you can't represent what's
happening in a country with just four writers, and that I'd have made
different specific choices -- Tom Paulin, sure as hell, before Carol Ann
Duffy.

And some of the previous generation inclusions -- Geoffrey Hill,
U.A.Fanthorpe, Tony Harrison -- I'm equally delighted with, though again I
suspect they wouldn't loom as large in a comparable anthology here.  And
Stevie Smith's still there.  Thank god.

I fought quite hard to have Norton3 adopted as the teaching anthology at
Loughborough (and I still think in some ways it's better than Norton4 which
replaced it), on the simple principle that whatever was missing, the kids
would have more poems there to read once they'd forked out their ?15 than
with any comparable text.  The main alternative (interesting that no
Brit-published anthology even entered the frame) was Fred Nims' anthology.
Much better, wittier, more coherent.  But what -- maybe a quarter of the
number of poems for the same price?

But after a certain time-point, with Norton4, it's not that it's a bad map
of British Poetry Today but that it's not even an approximation of a map at
all.

And while I can stand back and critique the choices of Brit poetry, I think,
"How much can I trust the choice of 'Contemporary American Verse' there,
where I don't have the background to judge?"

Enough.

Robin





From anny.ballardini  Fri Sep 26 08:21:09 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 14:21:09 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
References: <f8.30d3163a.2ca4e7bf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006301c38428$aaee2d40$ae737450@anny>

Thank you and kpaul, very much,
you have made my day so far,
again,
Anny

From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> In a message dated 9/25/03 5:05:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> anny.ballardini at tin.it writes:
> 
> > beyond what is human and
> >  forges it into a sculptured position outside what is inherent to human
> >  things. By making use of a cunning remark on what I wrote:
> >  "..to me that sounds very religious.."
> >  he practically uproots my thought, and eliminates it tout court.
> >  Best, Anny
> Anny, I think you win, if we take Wm. James seriously, and I
> do: Science or reason or logic, is no better or worse than
> religion as a belief system. We only act (make poetry) because
> we believe.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Henry_Gould  Fri Sep 26 10:05:31 2003
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:05:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enchanted Loom
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030926100437.00aec910@postoffice.brown.edu>

I wrote a response to Paul Lake's interesting essay on my blog 
:  http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com -

Henry




From paul.lake  Fri Sep 26 10:49:32 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:49:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob G.
Message-ID: <BB99BC2C.558F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Dear Bob,

I accidentally deleted your email with your address, so if you don't mind
sending it again, I'll get a copy of the essay you requested in the mail.

Sorry about the extra trouble.

Paul

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From elemenope  Thu Sep 25 23:30:22 2003
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:30:22 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blurt? (Anny Ballardini)  Re: Blurt? (Marcus Bales) (Robin
 Hamilton)
In-Reply-To: <200309260825.h8Q8P2ST022881@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200309260825.h8Q8P2ST022881@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bb99617584e0@[204.215.202.135]>

A few words.
The chair stands back to life.
Was it ever disassembled?
Prove it.  I doubt it, sitting on it.


RD

ELEMENOPE Productions

"A Satisfied Buyer and Manufacturer of the Korzybski Chair."





>
>
>>  "A Satisfied Buyer of the Korzybski Chair"
>
>But is it the same chair when it springs back?  Korzyski did cross my mind,
>too, in this context.
>
>"The map is not the country -- except in mathematics."
>
>Robin
>
>
>

-- 



From paul.lake  Fri Sep 26 10:49:32 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:49:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob G.
Message-ID: <BB99BC2C.558F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Dear Bob,

I accidentally deleted your email with your address, so if you don't mind
sending it again, I'll get a copy of the essay you requested in the mail.

Sorry about the extra trouble.

Paul

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From GrahamD  Fri Sep 26 11:52:00 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:52:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Eliot
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A090@mail.ripon.edu>

And how is everyone celebrating T. S. Eliot's birthday?


			The great Eliot has come the great Eliot
			has gone and where precisely are we now?

			He moved from the Mississippi to the Thames
			and we moved with him a few miles or inches.

			He taught us what to read what not to read
			and when he changed his mind he let us know.

			He coughed discreetly and we likewise coughed;
			we waited and we heard him clear his throat.

			How to be perfect prisoners of the past
			this was the thing but now he too is past.

			Shall we go sit beside the Mississippi
			and watch the riffraft driftwood floating by?

--Robert Francis, from "History" IV.

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From marcus  Fri Sep 26 12:12:12 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:12:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Eliot
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A090@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F742D1C.9829.1122941@localhost>

On 26 Sep 2003 at 10:52, Graham, David wrote:
> And how is everyone celebrating T. S. Eliot's birthday?

Preparing For the Journey

Having got there by the way you went
Through turning turnings axle-deep in muck,
The blooms of petrol fumes behind you spent
On spinning tyres, and muddy rainbows sent
Unpromisingly up behind the truck;

Having got there by the the way you went,
Fixing brakes broken and tie-rods bent


From GrahamD  Fri Sep 26 12:15:34 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:15:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lies & Lying Liars
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A091@mail.ripon.edu>

Now the Chief Executive enters; the press conference begins:
First the President lies about the date the Appalachian Mountains rose. 
Then he lies about the population of Chicago, then he lies about the weight
of the adult eagle, then about the acreage of the Everglades
  
He lies about the number of fish taken every year in the Arctic, he has
private information about which city *is* the capital of Wyoming, he lies
about the birthplace of Attila the Hun.   

He lies about the composition of the amniotic fluid, and he insists that
Luther was never a German, and that only the Protestants sold indulgences,


That Pope Leo X wanted to reform the church, but the "liberal elements"
prevented him,
that the Peasants' War was fomented by Italians from the North.   

And the Attorney General lies about the time the sun sets. 

--Robert Bly.  from "The Teeth Mother Naked at Last," 1970

============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From robin.hamilton2  Fri Sep 26 12:27:54 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:27:54 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blurt? (Anny Ballardini)  Re: Blurt? (Marcus Bales) (Robin Hamilton)
References: <200309260825.h8Q8P2ST022881@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100300bb99617584e0@[204.215.202.135]>
Message-ID: <01aa01c3844b$239a8a50$29b28051@MyPC>

Richard:

> A few words.
> The chair stands back to life.
> Was it ever disassembled?
> Prove it.  I doubt it, sitting on it.
>
> RD
>
> ELEMENOPE Productions

Where is now?  How long is here?

This is what existential ethics smashed against.

    {Incidentally, as a totally fatuous aside, somewhere Ken White quotes
Korzybski.

    Glasgow Rules, OK.

    Tongs, You Foe.}

                    Fantomas

Koan me no koans, you hungry man -- the Seekers' demo tape was "Children, go
where I send you", and in their nineties reunion concert, they sang, "Puff,
the Magic Dragon".

        Scan *that*, motherchild ...

Someone from Australia enlighten me.

    Grettir

(afraid of the dark)

{{And totally irrelevantly, did you ever SIT in that damn chair?  More than
once?

<g>

R2 }}

[Ah, yeah, in the context of the Chair, did I ever happen to mention
Schrody's Kits?  Nah?  Shame that, but.]








From JforJames  Fri Sep 26 12:29:47 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:29:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance Poetry & The Theatre
Message-ID: <1e6.1075ee38.2ca5c37b@aol.com>

The Song of the Spoken Word: New Theatrical Genre? Passing Fad? 
By Leonard Jacobs 

http://www.backstage.com/backstage/features/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id
=1982823



From JforJames  Fri Sep 26 12:34:27 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:34:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] William Stafford Pathway
Message-ID: <c8.3dd7554c.2ca5c493@aol.com>

Metro Southwest News
Lake Oswego renames path to honor poet 

Oregon poet laureate William Stafford's free verse will be posted along the 
Willamette River walkway 

09/25/03

LISA GRACE LEDNICER 

LAKE OSWEGO -- William Stafford found poetry in town halls and school tests, 
in church lawns and fences and handkerchiefs and yellow cars. Where others saw 
weeds, he saw armies of dandelions. Rivers didn't meander, they yearned. 
Yesterdays sighed. 
     
The poems poured out of him, one a day, every day. He filled books with them, 
53 in all, and the accolades flowed in: poet laureate of Oregon, the National 
Book Award, poetry consultant to the Library of Congress. He led workshops in 
every state but Mississippi. When he died in 1993, his obituary appeared in 
newspapers around the world. 

Yet there are no visible reminders of the poet in the town where he raised 
his family and was a familiar sight at the library and the post office. Last 
week, City Council members changed that: They renamed a path along the Willamette 
River the "William Stafford Pathway." A design team will sift through his 
work, choosing a few poems to place on plaques along the route. 

Councilor John Turchi, who taught Stafford's daughter, Kit, in high school 
and led the effort to commemorate her father, said Stafford's free verse speaks 
to everyone, even the unpoetic. As birds wheel above the path and a breeze 
thrums through the trees, visitors will be able to absorb the surroundings that 
inspired Stafford, Turchi said. 

"What I think he's good at are the poems when he's thinking of small things, 
small experiences, small sensations that evoke a larger meaning," he said. 
"It's straightforward, but it's put together so beautifully and evokes an 
emotional response that's quite special." 

Stafford was born in Kansas and never lost his love for the wind-stirred 
wheat plains and the tidy downtowns of his childhood. After high school he did 
manual labor, hoeing sugar beets and working in an oil refinery, then decided to 
become a poet. 

During World War II, in keeping with his Church of the Brethren roots, he 
registered as a conscientious objector. He met his wife, Dorothy, while working 
in a labor camp for pacifists. They moved to Oregon in 1948, when Lewis & Clark 
College offered him a teaching job. 

The family settled in Lake Oswego, Dorothy Stafford said, because of the 
schools. Stafford planted a vegetable garden and a poplar tree and commuted to 
work by bike. Occasionally he'd read from his work at public events. He lectured 
against Vietnam at Lake Grove Presbyterian Church; two decades later, in 1987, 
city officials commissioned a poem from him for the opening of the new City 
Hall. 

Around the neighborhood he was known for his skill with a plumbing wrench and 
for his willingness to lift heavy furniture on moving day. But much of his 
life, his family said, was lived within the walls of his house on Sunningdale 
Road. 

"It wasn't like he was the literary lion of Lake Oswego," said his son, Kim. 
"He believed you had to be quiet to invite your muse to speak. If you were too 
bold and assertive, you'd chase away the good ideas." 

Stafford's routine for creating a poem never changed: After his morning run 
he'd grab a legal pad and his fountain pen, flop down on the living room couch 
and compose in a cramped, angular scrawl. He wrote about fog. He wrote about 
the sky. He memorized his children's scraps of conversation and wove them into 
what writers call "found poems." His wife can't pick a favorite because, she 
said, there are too many. 

His body thickened. Age silvered his hair. Still, he kept up his 
correspondence with young poets and charmed well-established ones with his 
self-deprecation. 

"What do you do about writer's block?" someone once asked him, and Stafford 
answered, "Just lower your standards." 

Critics lauded him as the poetic voice of the modern-day Northwest, whose 
unadorned free verse belied a vein of complicated emotions underneath. In 
"Traveling Through the Dark," he wrote of finding a dead doe by the side of the road, 
her unborn fawn still pulsing. In "Ask Me," he talked about mistakes and the 
difference well-meaning and hateful people had made in his life. 

"Like a lot of poets, he sees the world for what it is -- a dark and gloomy 
place and there are a lot of scary people out there," said poet Joe Soldati, 
chairman of the board of trustees for the Friends of William Stafford, a 
literature and free-speech advocacy group. "He gets solace from trees and forests." 

Stafford was modest, his son said, but never denied that he was unusually 
gifted. After council members approved the ordinance renaming the pathway, Kim 
Stafford turned to his mother and asked, "What would Daddy have to say about 
this?" 

"He would've thought it was ridiculous," she replied. 

"But in his heart of hearts," Kim Stafford said, "he would've thought, 'It's 
about time.' " 



 



From paul.lake  Fri Sep 26 12:53:34 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:53:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Enchanted Loom
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030926100437.00aec910@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <BB99D93E.559C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/26/03 9:05 AM, Henry Gould at Henry_Gould at brown.edu wrote:

> I wrote a response to Paul Lake's interesting essay on my blog
> :  http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com -
> 
> Henry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
Enjoyed my visit to your blog, Henry. My only quibble with a couple of
comments there is that I'm not in any way in favor of a deterministic view
of art. Quite the opposite. I'll drop in and visit again.

Paul

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Sep 26 13:59:22 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:59:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
Message-ID: <20030926175923.07EEC3A0E@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Sep 26 14:22:20 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:22:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurt?
Message-ID: <20030926182220.7906C3B29@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From JforJames  Fri Sep 26 20:56:00 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:56:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Buffalo98 and Neoformalism ...
Message-ID: <c.192adf08.2ca63a20@aol.com>

Robin,
I was on Buffalo prior to that great debacle. And
the defenestrations.
I can only say that Buffalo, as wonderful a forum 
as it is on many counts, has always defined itself 
as "house list" of those in sympathy with the 
SUNY-Buffalo Poetics program. And that's okay. 
When in Rome and all that. But don't cut to close t
o the bone.

The Lacan Letter flap I saw unfold first hand. 
I didn't get involved, but I think it was basically
a failure of decorum. Can any list survive if it's
used as a personal Blog? We've had the same issues
on this list. What is "ideally" a discussion forum 
can't be hijacked for a private agenda  And you
can't have a list where people bring out BULLHORNS.
In a public space one could just walk away; but a list
is a more captive audience. I've noticed too, that when 
those intent on holding forth, no matter a list's identity
and ostensible purpose, are banned, they never fail to
invoke the useful fiction of free speech (in the context
of censorship) which they have virtually fettered 
by volume, frequency and irrelevance.

Forrest-Thomsom I have to go back to.  (After no luck
at all searching for her book on the internet, I tracked her
book down once in the New York Public library. I was on a
mission affter hearing it recommended.) I was not impressed 
in my first reading of it...it seemed a very young book. She
died young...and I'm sure it was only a beginning to
what her critical thinking would become. But it seemed
to me a book that was being lauded due to the tragedy
of her early death, and the praise had little to do with
the merits of her ideas.  
Finnegan



From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 26 21:05:40 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:05:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Eliot
Message-ID: <79.19b5873a.2ca63c64@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/26/2003 10:54:22 AM Central Daylight Time, 
GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> And how is everyone celebrating T. S. Eliot's birthday?
> 
> 
>             The great Eliot has come the great Eliot
>             has gone and where precisely are we now?
> 
>             He moved from the Mississippi to the Thames
>             and we moved with him a few miles or inches.
> 
>             He taught us what to read what not to read
>             and when he changed his mind he let us know.
> 
>             He coughed discreetly and we likewise coughed;
>             we waited and we heard him clear his throat.
> 
>             How to be perfect prisoners of the past
>             this was the thing but now he too is past.
> 
>             Shall we go sit beside the Mississippi
>             and watch the riffraft driftwood floating by?
> 
> --Robert Francis, from "History" IV.

I sat upon the Gulf fishing.
Should I put my lands in order?
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From robin.hamilton2  Fri Sep 26 22:16:04 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 03:16:04 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Buffalo98 and Neoformalism ...
References: <c.192adf08.2ca63a20@aol.com>
Message-ID: <026a01c3849d$4e44ced0$29b28051@MyPC>

Finnegan:

> The Lacan Letter flap I saw unfold first hand.
> I didn't get involved, but I think it was basically
> a failure of decorum.

Things aside, and the problem of naming names (which I'm trying not to do),
I think describing the LL stuff as "a failure of decorum" begs more than
several issues.



From gmguddi  Sat Sep 27 01:18:04 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 00:18:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Buffalo98 and Neoformalism ...
In-Reply-To: <00b601c3840a$8c9acb00$29b28051@MyPC>
References: <158.251c7d09.2ca4ea2e@cs.com>
 <007e01c383f2$71b53090$29b28051@MyPC>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927001140.02086190@mail.ilstu.edu>

At 09:45 AM 9/26/2003 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote:...
<<I'd
>been asked a day or so ago (backchannel) the question, "Why was Individual X
>banned from List Y?">>

Anyone interested in knowing why myself, Kent Johnson, Henry Gould, and 
Carlo Parcelli were banned from the Buffalo Poetics List in December 1998 
can simply go into the Buffpo archives and read postings from November to 
December 1998. It's all there in the open, in all its brutal stupidity. 
There's no mystery about it.

Gabe






From daisyf1  Sat Sep 27 10:35:43 2003
From: daisyf1 (Daisy Fried)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:35:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Buff-Po Archives
Message-ID: <20030927.103548.-446373.25.daisyf1@juno.com>

Do you have a url for the Buffpo Archives? I'm on no-mail for that list
at the moment and can't seem to find my way to the archives...
Thanks,
Daisy

<Anyone interested in knowing why myself, Kent Johnson, Henry Gould, and 
<Carlo Parcelli were banned from the Buffalo Poetics List in December
1998 
<can simply go into the Buffpo archives and read postings from November
to 
<December 1998. It's all there in the open, in all its brutal stupidity. 
<There's no mystery about it.

<Gabe



From gmguddi  Sat Sep 27 12:16:52 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:16:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Buff-Po Archives
In-Reply-To: <20030927.103548.-446373.25.daisyf1@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927111458.021d32b0@mail.ilstu.edu>

hi daisy. there are many more interesting things in the Buffpo archives 
than that fiasco, so I hope you use the archives for other purposes too. 
But here: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/

Click on the "poetics list archive" button.

gabe

At 10:35 AM 9/27/2003 -0400, Daisy Fried wrote:
>Do you have a url for the Buffpo Archives? I'm on no-mail for that list
>at the moment and can't seem to find my way to the archives...
>Thanks,
>Daisy
>
><Anyone interested in knowing why myself, Kent Johnson, Henry Gould, and
><Carlo Parcelli were banned from the Buffalo Poetics List in December
>1998
><can simply go into the Buffpo archives and read postings from November
>to
><December 1998. It's all there in the open, in all its brutal stupidity.
><There's no mystery about it.
>
><Gabe
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From gmguddi  Sat Sep 27 12:47:29 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:47:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon River
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927114658.021e3f48@mail.ilstu.edu>


I've been asked by Spoon River's current editor to guest-edit an issue of 
the magazine before I eventually take it over. The magazine will be going 
in a new direction. If you want to be included, please submit work for 
consideration to

Gabriel Gudding
Department of English -- 4240
Illinois State University
Normal, IL  61790
USA

Please remember to include SASE & cover letter. Any submission w/out sase 
will I'm sorry be thrown out.

Thanks.





From hruggier  Sat Sep 27 13:37:00 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:37:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon River
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927114658.021e3f48@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F75CABC.6065C35F@localnet.com>

What's the new direction?  Could you give a sample or some suggestions?
Neoformalist, language stuff, middle of the road, haiku, whatever.....
xxx
H. Ruggieri

Gabriel Gudding wrote:

> I've been asked by Spoon River's current editor to guest-edit an issue of
> the magazine before I eventually take it over. The magazine will be going
> in a new direction. If you want to be included, please submit work for
> consideration to
>
> Gabriel Gudding
> Department of English -- 4240
> Illinois State University
> Normal, IL  61790
> USA
>
> Please remember to include SASE & cover letter. Any submission w/out sase
> will I'm sorry be thrown out.
>
> Thanks.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From gmguddi  Sat Sep 27 13:49:23 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:49:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon
  River
In-Reply-To: <3F75CABC.6065C35F@localnet.com>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927114658.021e3f48@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927124325.02234df8@mail.ilstu.edu>

Helen, look, as far as I'm concerned, what you name your work -- in what 
school or herd you consider your work grouped -- is your business. The new 
direction of the mag is just a different direction. I'm not raising a flag 
-- just editing a mag.

But if you're wondering what kind of work I'm partial to: I like all manner 
of work, near as I can tell. Gabe



At 01:37 PM 9/27/2003 -0400, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
>What's the new direction?  Could you give a sample or some suggestions?
>Neoformalist, language stuff, middle of the road, haiku, whatever.....
>xxx
>H. Ruggieri
>
>Gabriel Gudding wrote:
>
> > I've been asked by Spoon River's current editor to guest-edit an issue of
> > the magazine before I eventually take it over. The magazine will be going
> > in a new direction. If you want to be included, please submit work for
> > consideration to
> >
> > Gabriel Gudding
> > Department of English -- 4240
> > Illinois State University
> > Normal, IL  61790
> > USA
> >
> > Please remember to include SASE & cover letter. Any submission w/out sase
> > will I'm sorry be thrown out.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From gmguddi  Sat Sep 27 14:01:16 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:01:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon 
  River
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927124325.02234df8@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <3F75CABC.6065C35F@localnet.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030927114658.021e3f48@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927125347.02255300@mail.ilstu.edu>

Helen, I just reread my previous and I'm wriitng to apologize to you: I 
apologize if the previous sounded rude. I didn't mean to be rude; perhaps 
what is behind my shortness of tone in the previous is a certain impatience 
toward what I take to be an ignorant and incessant need to group, 
categorize, label, classify and peg poets, poetry, and poems. Part of me 
wants to assert that I usually find such aesthetic tunnel vision in poets 
whose work I very much dislike. The more open-minded the poet, in terms of 
influences and stylistic range, usually the smarter, crisper, more 
inventive and interesting the work.

At 12:49 PM 9/27/2003 -0500, Gabriel Gudding wrote:
>Helen, look, as far as I'm concerned, what you name your work -- in what 
>school or herd you consider your work grouped -- is your business. The new 
>direction of the mag is just a different direction. I'm not raising a flag 
>-- just editing a mag.
>
>But if you're wondering what kind of work I'm partial to: I like all 
>manner of work, near as I can tell. Gabe
>
>
>
>At 01:37 PM 9/27/2003 -0400, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
>>What's the new direction?  Could you give a sample or some suggestions?
>>Neoformalist, language stuff, middle of the road, haiku, whatever.....
>>xxx
>>H. Ruggieri
>>
>>Gabriel Gudding wrote:
>>
>> > I've been asked by Spoon River's current editor to guest-edit an issue of
>> > the magazine before I eventually take it over. The magazine will be going
>> > in a new direction. If you want to be included, please submit work for
>> > consideration to
>> >
>> > Gabriel Gudding
>> > Department of English -- 4240
>> > Illinois State University
>> > Normal, IL  61790
>> > USA
>> >
>> > Please remember to include SASE & cover letter. Any submission w/out sase
>> > will I'm sorry be thrown out.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From tadrichards  Sat Sep 27 14:33:34 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:33:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon   River
References: <3F75CABC.6065C35F@localnet.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20030927114658.021e3f48@mail.ilstu.edu> <5.1.1.6.0.20030927125347.02255300@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <006e01c38525$dc4cf120$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Gabe -- still and all, a new direction is a new direction. I appreciate what you're saying. Any new editor is going to make for a new direction, and I'm not crazy about categorization either -- if I were, I wouldn't write what I write. But you're the one who brought up the new direction, so it's so far out of line to ask for a certain general sense of what was the old, what is the new.

At any rate, I'm going to send you some stuff, and if I knew what your new direction was, it wouldn't exactly matter a whole lot, because I write what I write, anyway.

Tad 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Gabriel Gudding 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 2:01 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon River


  Helen, I just reread my previous and I'm wriitng to apologize to you: I apologize if the previous sounded rude. I didn't mean to be rude; perhaps what is behind my shortness of tone in the previous is a certain impatience toward what I take to be an ignorant and incessant need to group, categorize, label, classify and peg poets, poetry, and poems. Part of me wants to assert that I usually find such aesthetic tunnel vision in poets whose work I very much dislike. The more open-minded the poet, in terms of influences and stylistic range, usually the smarter, crisper, more inventive and interesting the work. 

  At 12:49 PM 9/27/2003 -0500, Gabriel Gudding wrote:

    Helen, look, as far as I'm concerned, what you name your work -- in what school or herd you consider your work grouped -- is your business. The new direction of the mag is just a different direction. I'm not raising a flag -- just editing a mag.

    But if you're wondering what kind of work I'm partial to: I like all manner of work, near as I can tell. Gabe



    At 01:37 PM 9/27/2003 -0400, Helen Ruggieri wrote:

      What's the new direction?  Could you give a sample or some suggestions?
      Neoformalist, language stuff, middle of the road, haiku, whatever.....
      xxx
      H. Ruggieri

      Gabriel Gudding wrote:

      > I've been asked by Spoon River's current editor to guest-edit an issue of
      > the magazine before I eventually take it over. The magazine will be going
      > in a new direction. If you want to be included, please submit work for
      > consideration to
      >
      > Gabriel Gudding
      > Department of English -- 4240
      > Illinois State University
      > Normal, IL  61790
      > USA
      >
      > Please remember to include SASE & cover letter. Any submission w/out sase
      > will I'm sorry be thrown out.
      >
      > Thanks.
      >
      > _______________________________________________
      > New-Poetry mailing list
      > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From gmguddi  Sat Sep 27 14:49:08 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 13:49:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon  
  River
In-Reply-To: <006e01c38525$dc4cf120$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
References: <3F75CABC.6065C35F@localnet.com>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030927114658.021e3f48@mail.ilstu.edu>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20030927125347.02255300@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927134223.022470c0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Tad -- I look forward to reading your work. Generally, the only thing I can 
imagine thus far about the "new direction" is this: I'm mulling around, for 
this issue at least, the idea of running poems no longer than a page. But 
I've already accepted a few poems that are longer than a page so I'm not 
willing to stipulate even that as a criterion.

Gabe

At 02:33 PM 9/27/2003 -0400, TheOldMole wrote:
>Gabe -- still and all, a new direction is a new direction. I appreciate 
>what you're saying. Any new editor is going to make for a new direction, 
>and I'm not crazy about categorization either -- if I were, I wouldn't 
>write what I write. But you're the one who brought up the new direction, 
>so it's so far out of line to ask for a certain general sense of what was 
>the old, what is the new.
>
>At any rate, I'm going to send you some stuff, and if I knew what your new 
>direction was, it wouldn't exactly matter a whole lot, because I write 
>what I write, anyway.
>
>Tad
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:gmguddi at ilstu.edu>Gabriel Gudding
>To: <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ; 
><mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ; 
><mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 2:01 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon River
>
>Helen, I just reread my previous and I'm wriitng to apologize to you: I 
>apologize if the previous sounded rude. I didn't mean to be rude; perhaps 
>what is behind my shortness of tone in the previous is a certain 
>impatience toward what I take to be an ignorant and incessant need to 
>group, categorize, label, classify and peg poets, poetry, and poems. Part 
>of me wants to assert that I usually find such aesthetic tunnel vision in 
>poets whose work I very much dislike. The more open-minded the poet, in 
>terms of influences and stylistic range, usually the smarter, crisper, 
>more inventive and interesting the work.
>
>At 12:49 PM 9/27/2003 -0500, Gabriel Gudding wrote:
>>Helen, look, as far as I'm concerned, what you name your work -- in what 
>>school or herd you consider your work grouped -- is your business. The 
>>new direction of the mag is just a different direction. I'm not raising a 
>>flag -- just editing a mag.
>>
>>But if you're wondering what kind of work I'm partial to: I like all 
>>manner of work, near as I can tell. Gabe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>At 01:37 PM 9/27/2003 -0400, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
>>>What's the new direction?  Could you give a sample or some suggestions?
>>>Neoformalist, language stuff, middle of the road, haiku, whatever.....
>>>xxx
>>>H. Ruggieri
>>>
>>>Gabriel Gudding wrote:
>>>
>>> > I've been asked by Spoon River's current editor to guest-edit an 
>>> issue of
>>> > the magazine before I eventually take it over. The magazine will be 
>>> going
>>> > in a new direction. If you want to be included, please submit work for
>>> > consideration to
>>> >
>>> > Gabriel Gudding
>>> > Department of English -- 4240
>>> > Illinois State University
>>> > Normal, IL  61790
>>> > USA
>>> >
>>> > Please remember to include SASE & cover letter. Any submission w/out 
>>> sase
>>> > will I'm sorry be thrown out.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks.
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From robin.hamilton2  Sat Sep 27 15:05:43 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:05:43 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon River
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927114658.021e3f48@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <039901c3852a$5a06edb0$29b28051@MyPC>

> I've been asked by Spoon River's current editor to guest-edit an issue of
> the magazine before
...
> Thanks.

Gabe,

Are you accepting email submissions?  Postal submissions across the Pond can
be time-consuming (and expensive!).

Robin





From gmguddi  Sat Sep 27 15:11:07 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:11:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon
  River
In-Reply-To: <039901c3852a$5a06edb0$29b28051@MyPC>
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927114658.021e3f48@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927141040.02240198@mail.ilstu.edu>

Robin,

No email submissions, I'm afraid.

Gabe

At 08:05 PM 9/27/2003 +0100, Robin Hamilton wrote:
> > I've been asked by Spoon River's current editor to guest-edit an issue of
> > the magazine before
>...
> > Thanks.
>
>Gabe,
>
>Are you accepting email submissions?  Postal submissions across the Pond can
>be time-consuming (and expensive!).
>
>Robin
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From robin.hamilton2  Sat Sep 27 15:24:24 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:24:24 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon  River
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927114658.021e3f48@mail.ilstu.edu> <5.1.1.6.0.20030927141040.02240198@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <03be01c3852c$f5d9c210$29b28051@MyPC>

> Robin,
> 
> No email submissions, I'm afraid.
> 
> Gabe

K.  Fair,

:-(

Go see if I can hunt-out an International Reply Coupon ...

Or would you at least do email rejections?

<g>

Robin




From grahamd  Sat Sep 27 16:09:07 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:09:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blues Poems
Message-ID: <BB9B5893.46B1%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I'd like to recommend a quite wonderful new anthology in the Everyman's
Library Pocket Poets series:  *Blues Poems*, edited by Kevin Young.

Young has chosen a two-pronged approach here.  There are plenty of poems in
true blues form here, including a nice sampling of actual song lyrics by W.
C. Handy, Robert Johnson, Bessie Smith, Leadbelly, and others.  And most of
the poets you'd expect are well represented here, from Langston Hughes and
Sterling Brown through Sonya Sanchez, Etheridge Knight, Al Young, Wanda
Coleman, and Kevin Young himself.

But he's equally interested in the blues as feeling, theme, and influence.
So there are also quite a few poets you might not immediately expect,
including Robert Creeley, Thomas McGrath, Charles Wright, Marilyn Chin,
Joseph Brodsky, Charles Wright, Billy Collins, John Yau, Jane Cooper, and
Charles Simic.  These are often poets who have taken the blues form as
starting point for their own formal explorations, or who have incorporated
some of its spirit.

It's a rich, readable book.  I just wish it came with a CD of oral
performances of the poems.



-----------------------------------------------------------
The jacket blurb:

 Born in African American work songs, field hollers, and the powerful legacy
of the spirituals, the blues traveled the country from the Mississippi delta
to "Sweet Home Chicago," forming the backbone of American music. In this
anthology?the first devoted exclusively to blues poems?a wide array of poets
pay tribute to the form and offer testimony to its lasting power.

The blues has left an indelible mark on the work of a diverse range of
poets: from "The Weary Blues" by Langston Hughes and "Funeral Blues" by W.
H. Auden, to "Blues on Yellow" by Marilyn Chin and "Reservation Blues" by
Sherman Alexie. Here are blues-influenced and blues--inflected poems from,
among others, Gwendolyn Brooks, Allen Ginsberg, June Jordan, Richard Wright,
Nikki Giovanni, Charles Wright, Yusef Komunyakaa, and Cornelius Eady. And
here, too, are classic song lyrics?poems in their own right?from Bessie
Smith, Robert Johnson, Ma Rainey, and Muddy Waters.

The rich emotional palette of the blues is fully represented here in verse
that pays tribute to the heart and humor of the music, and in poems that
swing with its history and hard-bitten hope.
-------------------------------------------------------------

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================






From FanwoodJEL  Sat Sep 27 17:01:24 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:01:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon  River
Message-ID: <31.3e64a29e.2ca754a4@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/27/03 2:21:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes:

> The new direction of the mag is just a different direction. 

Sure, and I love it you bet when a deal comes together, 'cause lately I've 
been going in a different direction, too, so it's ok with me Prof, and if I may 
say so, why should the Chicago be the only river going in a different 
direction if you get my drift. Well, I do say so. So I'm submitting.  Congrats on the 
new editorhoodshipdom. Steer well.

Jeffrey Levine
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From gmguddi  Sat Sep 27 17:15:33 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:15:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon 
  River
In-Reply-To: <31.3e64a29e.2ca754a4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927161229.02350e70@mail.ilstu.edu>

Jeffrey, i don't understand much of your message below but i do get that 
you're submitting work. thank you. looking forward to it.

remember, shorter is probably better. g

At 05:01 PM 9/27/2003 -0400, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 9/27/03 2:21:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes:
>
>>The new direction of the mag is just a different direction.
>
>
>Sure, and I love it you bet when a deal comes together, 'cause lately I've 
>been going in a different direction, too, so it's ok with me Prof, and if 
>I may say so, why should the Chicago be the only river going in a 
>different direction if you get my drift. Well, I do say so. So I'm 
>submitting.  Congrats on the new editorhoodshipdom. Steer well.
>
>Jeffrey Levine
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From FanwoodJEL  Sat Sep 27 17:18:24 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:18:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon  River
Message-ID: <1a3.1a964e2a.2ca758a0@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/27/03 5:16:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes:

> i don't understand much of your message below 

Gabe, the Chicago River runs backwards. You could look it up.

Jeffrey, shorter but better
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From elemenope  Sat Sep 27 05:57:55 2003
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 17:57:55 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir
In-Reply-To: <200309271417.h8REH6ST030724@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200309271417.h8REH6ST030724@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100301bb9b07cdec73@[204.215.202.216]>

KorZybski ChAir

You seem to be somewhat discomfited and not a little not incurious 
about my Korzybski chair.  I am not a selfish man.  Here, you take it 
by the arms properly from the back and carry it where it will please 
you, say, by that window overlooking the alpine meadow stretching 
down to the sun-thrilled sea
whence, I hear, once long ago my people came among your own and not as friends.
Are you thirsty?  Here, a thimble shot of what we call "Inthrall."  Be still.

RD

ELEMENOPE Productions

Confabulator of the Korzybski Chair.



>At 05:24 PM +0800 9/27/03, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
>>--__--__--
>>
>>Message: 1
>>From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Blurt? (Anny Ballardini)  Re: Blurt? 
>>(Marcus Bales) (Robin Hamilton)
>>Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:27:54 +0100
>>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>
>>Richard:
>>
>>>  A few words.
>>>  The chair stands back to life.
>>>  Was it ever disassembled?
>>>  Prove it.  I doubt it, sitting on it.
>>>
>>>  RD
>>>
>>>  ELEMENOPE Productions
>>
>>Where is now?  How long is here?
>>
>>This is what existential ethics smashed against.
>>
>>     {Incidentally, as a totally fatuous aside, somewhere Ken White quotes
>>Korzybski.
>>
>>     Glasgow Rules, OK.
>>
>>     Tongs, You Foe.}
>>
>>                     Fantomas
>>
>>Koan me no koans, you hungry man -- the Seekers' demo tape was "Children, go
>>where I send you", and in their nineties reunion concert, they sang, "Puff,
>>the Magic Dragon".
>>
>>         Scan *that*, motherchild ...
>>
>>Someone from Australia enlighten me.
>>
>>     Grettir
>>
>>(afraid of the dark)
>>
>>{{And totally irrelevantly, did you ever SIT in that damn chair?  More than
>>once?
>>
>><g>
>>
>>R2 }}
>>
>>[Ah, yeah, in the context of the Chair, did I ever happen to mention
>>Schrody's Kits?  Nah?  Shame that, but.]
>>
>>


-- 



From robin.hamilton2  Sat Sep 27 18:39:11 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:39:11 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir
References: <200309271417.h8REH6ST030724@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100301bb9b07cdec73@[204.215.202.216]>
Message-ID: <040901c38548$2cde94f0$29b28051@MyPC>

> KorZybski ChAir

Richard, are you casting narsturtiums on my West-Coast urban Scottish
accent?

> You seem to be somewhat discomfited and not a little not incurious
> about my Korzybski chair.

O tempora! O mores!  The only reason I know about that freaking chair (on
which, I begin to suspect, Schrodinger sat waiting for his cat to explode or
implode) -- was that you mentioned it to me, lo these many years ago, and
then had to go on, in -- I won't say, "tedious" -- detail to explain.

> I am not a selfish man.

Among your all-too-many-to-list faults, I will admit that that's not one.

> Here, you take it
> by the arms properly from the back and carry it where it will please
> you, say, by that window overlooking the alpine meadow stretching
> down to the sun-thrilled sea

Well, fine, that makes sense.  But, Richard, I'm +still+ not sure why it's
*Kozysbki's* chair?  Is it the identity thing?

> whence, I hear, once long ago my people came among your own and not as
friends.
> Are you thirsty?  Here, a thimble shot of what we call "Inthrall."  Be
still.

Pull down thy vanity, oh man, I say, pull down ... your chair.

Robin

(not a citizen of The Nation)





From james.alexander1  Sat Sep 27 18:30:37 2003
From: james.alexander1 (james.alexander1)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:30:37 +0200
Subject: What curves and verse Re: [New-Poetry] Eliot
References: <3F742D1C.9829.1122941@localhost>
Message-ID: <000201c3854b$8c2b5f80$4783f8c1@pavilion>

Hardly comparable to Eliot, neither in verse nor in shape!!!

but trying, contributing... heightens awareness in my experience:

Third of eight extracts from my "Conversations on Innovations-Le Tour de
France on www.chemweb.com



III

Here I add my voice to Latour's,

Surgical action often costs a bomb, big spender.
 Your attitude is ever present, 2003 still tender.
         The situation calls for a Life Saver
         Could this perchance be a banker?
     I do not mean cash hoarding, I thunder,
You looting, plundering, warmongering murderer.

(Notice the curves dreams are made of? "Bell shape curve" rotational
transformation, gyrations) Copyright ? J.A.  Dolphins@) ADA Grp.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Eliot


> On 26 Sep 2003 at 10:52, Graham, David wrote:
> > And how is everyone celebrating T. S. Eliot's birthday?
>
> Preparing For the Journey
>
> Having got there by the way you went
> Through turning turnings axle-deep in muck,
> The blooms of petrol fumes behind you spent
> On spinning tyres, and muddy rainbows sent
> Unpromisingly up behind the truck;
>
> Having got there by the the way you went,
> Fixing brakes broken and tie-rods bent
> From tired skill, no hope, and failing luck;
>
> You see, bare beyond unbaring,
> Apparitions offer waves
> To one another on the screens,
> Still acting out yet other scenes
> In darkened motion-picture caves,
> Not quite caring, but not uncaring
>
> To try to force an opening-out
> Of passion packed up past unpacking,
> And leave some room for thoughtful life.
>
> But stanzas quick with laughter, wild with wit,
> Don't alter aging, or make up for it.
> Our fruits are fatly ripe, their blossoms gone;
> Illiterate children see them hanging on,
> Pluck them, eat them, and throw away each core
> Without a thought for what else fruits are for.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From james.alexander1  Sat Sep 27 18:49:38 2003
From: james.alexander1 (james.alexander1)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:49:38 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Extracts for scientifically inclined poets
Message-ID: <000301c3854b$998e7f40$4783f8c1@pavilion>

Eight  extracts (out of context) from my paper : "Conversations on Innovations" on www.chemweb.com  :        

 (cut & pasted for those of you too shy to ask your science friends or too short of time to sign on to chemweb. I have a warning that some changes too script may occur upon sending so I have attached a word 2000 doc. but recommend referring to chemweb's CPS Chemistry Preprint server for full paper (free access).



I 

 I knew it would be difficult to avoid the Bell shaped curve: 

            

The Bell Shaped Curve:

 

Not the one of dreams, actually,

With all its ring of normality,

And background skewed tonality,

Neither justifiable of necessity,

Trying so to avoid all criminality,

Oft' far from proper musicality.

 

                                                            copyright ? J.A.

 

 

 

II

"Stranger still, what does one do when one does not know, when the certitudes are lacking?  Will we design a protocol for 'serious fiddling and fumbling'?

 

Fiddling and fumbling with variations,

Mixing and muddling and even juggling

With Time and Temperature and Space,

In order to learn, bit by bit.

 

                                    Adapted from "From Entropy to Poetry"  ? J.A.  2002-3

 

If I may use such technological - terminology as, 'bit by bit,'  

 

 

 

III

 

Here I add my voice to Latour's, 

 

Surgical action often costs a bomb, big spender.

Your attitude is ever present, 2003 still tender.

The situation calls for a Life Saver  

Could this perchance be a banker?    

I do not mean cash hoarding, I thunder,

You looting, plundering, warmongering murderer.

 

(Notice the curves dreams are made of? "Bell shape curve" rotational transformation, gyrations) Copyright ? J.A.  Dolphins@) ADA Grp. 

 

IV.

 

And time goes by, nothing sustainable or durable is achieved." 

 

Does entropy's ? quantum wave(s),

Universally durable by its very Nature

Require sustainability, my brave(s)?

 

 

V.

 

BATH - TUBS, CORNED - HATS and CHIP - POKES.  

 

 

The innovation team, through information technology and communication is more global, apprenticeship still rife with corporate fear, arrogance and in some instances some megalomania. Latour's "power must first gain awareness of experimentation underway, understand and explain and moderate" neither freeze in some death like inertial ignorant bliss

Cf. 3rd Law -Crystal Clear Post 4, nor hurtle head long into a the predictable, wall or precipice-a mechanical view is illustrated as follows: 

 

"Last year we were at the edge of a precipice!

This year we shall take a large step forward."

 -An imaginary punch line from a Presidential address in an some fictitious,

  poorly-developed country or region. 

 

VI.

 

 

Or worse become the source, the epicentre of some explosive front- a chemical view whose symbol has become, Sept 11. and suicide bombers, so despairingly mislead, misguided. -Alfred Nobel must turn in his grave.

 

And a nuclear one!

 

"N" as in Nu-clear?

The highest state of strong order, dawning

"et de ce jour bacteries et champignons

jailirent ? l'existance pour dissoudre

et un nouveau champignon est n?"

(3 lines from J.Updike, Facing Nature, trad.Alain Suid "Ode ? la D?composition")

Such is Nature - reviewed.

 


From jvcervantes  Sat Sep 27 18:54:23 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:54:23 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blues Poems
References: <BB9B5893.46B1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F76151E.598326E7@earthlink.net>


David Graham wrote:
> 
> I'd like to recommend a quite wonderful new anthology in the Everyman's
> Library Pocket Poets series:  *Blues Poems*, edited by Kevin Young.
> 
> Young has chosen a two-pronged approach here.  There are plenty of poems in
> true blues form here, including a nice sampling of actual song lyrics by W.
> C. Handy, Robert Johnson, Bessie Smith, Leadbelly, and others.  And most of
> the poets you'd expect are well represented here, from Langston Hughes and
> Sterling Brown through Sonya Sanchez, Etheridge Knight, Al Young, Wanda
> Coleman, and Kevin Young himself.
> 
> But he's equally interested in the blues as feeling, theme, and influence.
> So there are also quite a few poets you might not immediately expect,
> including Robert Creeley, Thomas McGrath, Charles Wright, Marilyn Chin,
> Joseph Brodsky, Charles Wright, Billy Collins, John Yau, Jane Cooper, and
> Charles Simic.  These are often poets who have taken the blues form as
> starting point for their own formal explorations, or who have incorporated
> some of its spirit.
> 
> It's a rich, readable book.  I just wish it came with a CD of oral
> performances of the poems.

Not to mention music with them.  My biggest kick these days is
reading/performing poems with a blues group.  I'm surprised, too, by the
poems the musicians like best, which causes me to hear new sounds and
rhythms in them.

If anyone happens to be in the vicinity of Mesa, Arizona on October
25th, you'll have a chance to hear "The Word & The Blues" with a
dynamite group of musicians and several poets and writers.

Thanks for the tip on the book, David.  I'll get it.

- Jim



From jvcervantes  Sat Sep 27 19:04:19 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 16:04:19 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blues Poems
References: <BB9B5893.46B1%grahamd@ripon.edu> <3F76151E.598326E7@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F761772.D0D8E501@earthlink.net>

Meant to include a url with the little embedded ad:  http://www.poetserv.com/mlf/main.html

- Jim

James Cervantes wrote:
> 
> David Graham wrote:
> >
> > I'd like to recommend a quite wonderful new anthology in the Everyman's
> > Library Pocket Poets series:  *Blues Poems*, edited by Kevin Young.
> >
> > Young has chosen a two-pronged approach here.  There are plenty of poems in
> > true blues form here, including a nice sampling of actual song lyrics by W.
> > C. Handy, Robert Johnson, Bessie Smith, Leadbelly, and others.  And most of
> > the poets you'd expect are well represented here, from Langston Hughes and
> > Sterling Brown through Sonya Sanchez, Etheridge Knight, Al Young, Wanda
> > Coleman, and Kevin Young himself.
> >
> > But he's equally interested in the blues as feeling, theme, and influence.
> > So there are also quite a few poets you might not immediately expect,
> > including Robert Creeley, Thomas McGrath, Charles Wright, Marilyn Chin,
> > Joseph Brodsky, Charles Wright, Billy Collins, John Yau, Jane Cooper, and
> > Charles Simic.  These are often poets who have taken the blues form as
> > starting point for their own formal explorations, or who have incorporated
> > some of its spirit.
> >
> > It's a rich, readable book.  I just wish it came with a CD of oral
> > performances of the poems.
> 
> Not to mention music with them.  My biggest kick these days is
> reading/performing poems with a blues group.  I'm surprised, too, by the
> poems the musicians like best, which causes me to hear new sounds and
> rhythms in them.
> 
> If anyone happens to be in the vicinity of Mesa, Arizona on October
> 25th, you'll have a chance to hear "The Word & The Blues" with a
> dynamite group of musicians and several poets and writers.
> 
> Thanks for the tip on the book, David.  I'll get it.
> 
> - Jim



From paul  Sat Sep 27 20:24:17 2003
From: paul (paul at tbhinc.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:24:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blues Poems
In-Reply-To: <200309272246.h8RMk2ST001128@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030927202227.00ab0098@mail.tbhinc.com>

Good lead here, David! Thanks.

>Message: 4
>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:09:07 -0500
>From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Blues Poems
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>I'd like to recommend a quite wonderful new anthology in the Everyman's
>Library Pocket Poets series:  *Blues Poems*, edited by Kevin Young.
>
>Young has chosen a two-pronged approach here.  There are plenty of poems in
>true blues form here, including a nice sampling of actual song lyrics by W.
>C. Handy, Robert Johnson, Bessie Smith, Leadbelly, and others.  And most of
>the poets you'd expect are well represented here, from Langston Hughes and
>Sterling Brown through Sonya Sanchez, Etheridge Knight, Al Young, Wanda
>Coleman, and Kevin Young himself.
>
>But he's equally interested in the blues as feeling, theme, and influence.
>So there are also quite a few poets you might not immediately expect,
>including Robert Creeley, Thomas McGrath, Charles Wright, Marilyn Chin,
>Joseph Brodsky, Charles Wright, Billy Collins, John Yau, Jane Cooper, and
>Charles Simic.  These are often poets who have taken the blues form as
>starting point for their own formal explorations, or who have incorporated
>some of its spirit.
>
>It's a rich, readable book.  I just wish it came with a CD of oral
>performances of the poems.
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>The jacket blurb:
>
>  Born in African American work songs, field hollers, and the powerful legacy
>of the spirituals, the blues traveled the country from the Mississippi delta
>to "Sweet Home Chicago," forming the backbone of American music. In this
>anthology?the first devoted exclusively to blues poems?a wide array of poets
>pay tribute to the form and offer testimony to its lasting power.
>
>The blues has left an indelible mark on the work of a diverse range of
>poets: from "The Weary Blues" by Langston Hughes and "Funeral Blues" by W.
>H. Auden, to "Blues on Yellow" by Marilyn Chin and "Reservation Blues" by
>Sherman Alexie. Here are blues-influenced and blues--inflected poems from,
>among others, Gwendolyn Brooks, Allen Ginsberg, June Jordan, Richard Wright,
>Nikki Giovanni, Charles Wright, Yusef Komunyakaa, and Cornelius Eady. And
>here, too, are classic song lyrics?poems in their own right?from Bessie
>Smith, Robert Johnson, Ma Rainey, and Muddy Waters.
>
>The rich emotional palette of the blues is fully represented here in verse
>that pays tribute to the heart and humor of the music, and in poems that
>swing with its history and hard-bitten hope.
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>
>====================================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>====================================================

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From gmguddi  Sun Sep 28 00:34:23 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:34:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] please submit work to new version of Spoon 
  River
In-Reply-To: <1a3.1a964e2a.2ca758a0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030927233305.0123fae8@mail.ilstu.edu>

<<Gabe, the Chicago River runs backwards. You could look it up.

>Jeffrey, shorter but better >>

Jeffrey, I didn't know that about the Chicago River. Looking forward to 
reading your work. Very groovy. Thanks for submitting.

gabe
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From elemenope  Sat Sep 27 13:35:40 2003
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:35:40 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir
In-Reply-To: <200309272246.h8RMk2ST001128@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200309272246.h8RMk2ST001128@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300bb9b70b3abdf@[204.215.200.228]>

Robin:

Ah, you seem to be remem-

>>  >>{{And totally irrelevantly, did you ever SIT in that damn chair? 
>>More than
>  >>once?


bering the last time we were here:

>
>>you mentioned it to me, lo these many years ago, and
>>then had to go on, in -- I won't say, "tedious" -- detail to explain.


Sitting in the Korzybski Chair,
one's, you are, liable to have such an anxious glimmering.

Clapping,

RD

ELEMENOPE Productions





>
>Well, fine, that makes sense.  But, Richard, I'm +still+ not sure why it's
>*Kozysbki's* chair?  Is it the identity thing?


				Yes, if by a word you don't and do 
have a thing.

The statement in this line is false.



Go back and re-read Professor's Korzybski on his chair; the text WSB 
gave me.  Shax has his own version on the wee cliffs of Lear.


R


"Puff, The Magic Dragon" was a jjoint back in the Sixties went up in smoke.

>
>
>
>>At 05:24 PM +0800 9/27/03, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote:
>>>-- __--__--
>>>
>>>Message: 1
>>>From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>>>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Blurt? (Anny Ballardini)  Re: Blurt?
>>>(Marcus Bales) (Robin Hamilton)
>>>Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:27:54 +0100
>>>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>
>>>Richard:
>>>
>>>>   A few words.
>>>>   The chair stands back to life.
>>>>   Was it ever disassembled?
>>>>   Prove it.  I doubt it, sitting on it.
>>>>
>>>>   RD
>>>>
>>>>   ELEMENOPE Productions
>>>
>>>Where is now?  How long is here?
>>>
>>>This is what existential ethics smashed against.
>>>
>>>      {Incidentally, as a totally fatuous aside, somewhere Ken White quotes
>>>Korzybski.
>>>
>>>      Glasgow Rules, OK.
>>>
>>>      Tongs, You Foe.}
>>>
>>>                      Fantomas
>>>
>>>Koan me no koans, you hungry man -- the Seekers' demo tape was "Children, go
>>>where I send you", and in their nineties reunion concert, they sang, "Puff,
>>>the Magic Dragon".
>>>
>>>          Scan *that*, motherchild ...
>>>
>>>Someone from Australia enlighten me.
>>>
>>>      Grettir
>>>
>>>(afraid of the dark)
>>>
>>>{{And totally irrelevantly, did you ever SIT in that damn chair?  More than
>>>once?
>>>
>>><g>
>>>
>>>R2 }}
>>>
>>>[Ah, yeah, in the context of the Chair, did I ever happen to mention
>>>Schrody's Kits?  Nah?  Shame that, but.]
>>>
>>>
>
>
>--
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 9
>From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir
>Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:39:11 +0100
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>>  KorZybski ChAir
>
>Richard, are you casting narsturtiums on my West-Coast urban Scottish
>accent?
>
>>  You seem to be somewhat discomfited and not a little not incurious
>>  about my Korzybski chair.
>
>O tempora! O mores!  The only reason I know about that freaking chair (on
>which, I begin to suspect, Schrodinger sat waiting for his cat to explode or
>implode) -- was that you mentioned it to me, lo these many years ago, and
>then had to go on, in -- I won't say, "tedious" -- detail to explain.
>
>>  I am not a selfish man.
>
>Among your all-too-many-to-list faults, I will admit that that's not one.
>
>>  Here, you take it
>>  by the arms properly from the back and carry it where it will please
>>  you, say, by that window overlooking the alpine meadow stretching
>>  down to the sun-thrilled sea
>
>Well, fine, that makes sense.  But, Richard, I'm +still+ not sure why it's
>*Kozysbki's* chair?  Is it the identity thing?
>
>  > whence, I hear, once long ago my people came among your own and not as
>friends.
>>  Are you thirsty?  Here, a thimble shot of what we call "Inthrall."  Be
>still.
>
>Pull down thy vanity, oh man, I say, pull down ... your chair.
>
>Robin
>
>(not a citizen of The Nation)
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 10
>From: "james.alexander1" <james.alexander1 at wanadoo.fr>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: What curves and verse Re: [New-Poetry] Eliot
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:30:37 +0200
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Hardly comparable to Eliot, neither in verse nor in shape!!!
>
>but trying, contributing... heightens awareness in my experience:
>
>Third of eight extracts from my "Conversations on Innovations-Le Tour de
>France on www.chemweb.com
>
>
>
>III
>
>Here I add my voice to Latour's,
>
>Surgical action often costs a bomb, big spender.
>  Your attitude is ever present, 2003 still tender.
>          The situation calls for a Life Saver
>          Could this perchance be a banker?
>      I do not mean cash hoarding, I thunder,
>You looting, plundering, warmongering murderer.
>
>(Notice the curves dreams are made of? "Bell shape curve" rotational
>transformation, gyrations) Copyright ? J.A.  Dolphins@) ADA Grp.
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 6:12 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Eliot
>
>
>>  On 26 Sep 2003 at 10:52, Graham, David wrote:
>>  > And how is everyone celebrating T. S. Eliot's birthday?
>>
>>  Preparing For the Journey
>>
>>  Having got there by the way you went
>>  Through turning turnings axle-deep in muck,
>>  The blooms of petrol fumes behind you spent
>>  On spinning tyres, and muddy rainbows sent
>>  Unpromisingly up behind the truck;
>>
>>  Having got there by the the way you went,
>>  Fixing brakes broken and tie-rods bent
>>  From tired skill, no hope, and failing luck;
>>
>>  You see, bare beyond unbaring,
>>  Apparitions offer waves
>>  To one another on the screens,
>>  Still acting out yet other scenes
>>  In darkened motion-picture caves,
>>  Not quite caring, but not uncaring
>>
>>  To try to force an opening-out
>>  Of passion packed up past unpacking,
>>  And leave some room for thoughtful life.
>>
>>  But stanzas quick with laughter, wild with wit,
>>  Don't alter aging, or make up for it.
>>  Our fruits are fatly ripe, their blossoms gone;
>>  Illiterate children see them hanging on,
>>  Pluck them, eat them, and throw away each core
>>  Without a thought for what else fruits are for.
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 11
>From: "james.alexander1" <james.alexander1 at wanadoo.fr>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:49:38 +0200
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Extracts for scientifically inclined poets
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C3855A.650E6960
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>	boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0026_01C3855A.650E6960"
>
>
>------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C3855A.650E6960
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Eight  extracts (out of context) from my paper : "Conversations on =
>Innovations" on www.chemweb.com  :       =20
>
>  (cut & pasted for those of you too shy to ask your science friends or =
>too short of time to sign on to chemweb. I have a warning that some =
>changes too script may occur upon sending so I have attached a word 2000 =
>doc. but recommend referring to chemweb's CPS Chemistry Preprint server =
>for full paper (free access).
>
>
>
>I=20
>
>  I knew it would be difficult to avoid the Bell shaped curve:=20
>
>            =20
>
>The Bell Shaped Curve:
>
>=20
>
>Not the one of dreams, actually,
>
>With all its ring of normality,
>
>And background skewed tonality,
>
>Neither justifiable of necessity,
>
>Trying so to avoid all criminality,
>
>Oft' far from proper musicality.
>
>=20
>
>                                                             copyright =
>=A9 J.A.
>
>=20
>
>=20
>
>=20
>
>II
>
>"Stranger still, what does one do when one does not know, when the =
>certitudes are lacking?  Will we design a protocol for 'serious fiddling =
>and fumbling'?
>
>=20
>
>Fiddling and fumbling with variations,
>
>Mixing and muddling and even juggling
>
>With Time and Temperature and Space,
>
>In order to learn, bit by bit.
>
>=20
>
>                                     Adapted from "From Entropy to =
>Poetry"  =A9 J.A.  2002-3
>
>=20
>
>If I may use such technological - terminology as, 'bit by bit,' =20
>
>=20
>
>=20
>
>=20
>
>III
>
>=20
>
>Here I add my voice to Latour's,=20
>
>=20
>
>Surgical action often costs a bomb, big spender.
>
>Your attitude is ever present, 2003 still tender.
>
>The situation calls for a Life Saver =20
>
>Could this perchance be a banker?   =20
>
>I do not mean cash hoarding, I thunder,
>
>You looting, plundering, warmongering murderer.
>
>=20
>
>(Notice the curves dreams are made of? "Bell shape curve" rotational =
>transformation, gyrations) Copyright =A9 J.A.  Dolphins@) ADA Grp.=20
>
>=20
>
>IV.
>
>=20
>
>And time goes by, nothing sustainable or durable is achieved."=20
>
>=20
>
>Does entropy's ? quantum wave(s),
>
>Universally durable by its very Nature
>
>Require sustainability, my brave(s)?
>
>=20
>
>=20
>
>V.
>
>=20
>
>BATH - TUBS, CORNED - HATS and CHIP - POKES. =20
>
>=20
>
>=20
>
>The innovation team, through information technology and communication is =
>more global, apprenticeship still rife with corporate fear, arrogance =
>and in some instances some megalomania. Latour's "power must first gain =
>awareness of experimentation underway, understand and explain and =
>moderate" neither freeze in some death like inertial ignorant bliss
>
>Cf. 3rd Law -Crystal Clear Post 4, nor hurtle head long into a the =
>predictable, wall or precipice-a mechanical view is illustrated as =
>follows:=20
>
>=20
>
>"Last year we were at the edge of a precipice!
>
>This year we shall take a large step forward."
>
>  -An imaginary punch line from a Presidential address in an some =
>fictitious,
>
>   poorly-developed country or region.=20
>
>=20
>
>VI.
>
>=20
>
>=20
>
>Or worse become the source, the epicentre of some explosive front- a =
>chemical view whose symbol has become, Sept 11. and suicide bombers, so =
>despairingly mislead, misguided. -Alfred Nobel must turn in his grave.
>
>=20
>
>And a nuclear one!
>
>=20
>
>"N" as in Nu-clear?
>
>The highest state of strong order, dawning
>
>"et de ce jour bacteries et champignons
>
>jailirent =E0 l'existance pour dissoudre
>
>et un nouveau champignon est n=E9"
>
>(3 lines from J.Updike, Facing Nature, trad.Alain Suid "Ode =E0 la =
>D=E9composition")
>
>Such is Nature - reviewed.
>
>=20
>
>>From 'Entropy to Poetry'   copyright =A9 J.A.
>
>=20
>
>=20
>
>VII.=20
>
>=20
>
>=20
>
>Footynote 3 - Cautionary note:  the Four Principles of Do-Ing:  (a =
>pseudo-scientific enquiry):
>
>=20
>
>   1.. Classical & Biblical- 'Do unto others, as  you would they do unto =
>you. ' Security'=20
>   2..  The so called Business principle:  'Do them before they do you'.  =
>  'Commercial'=20
>   3.. The so called Management Model 'Do it to them before they do it to =
>you. Defence -Attack being the best form!=20
>   4.. The 'no-no' Model 'Do them in before they do you in!  'Totally =
>unlawful but.'
>=20
>
>=20
>
>------=_NextPart_001_0026_01C3855A.650E6960
>Content-Type: text/html;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML xmlns:o =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"><HEAD>
><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times =
>New Roman">Eight=20
><SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>extracts (out&nbsp;of=20
>context)&nbsp;from my paper : "Conversations on Innovations" on <A=20
>href=3D"http://www.chemweb.com">www.chemweb.com</A>=20
>&nbsp;:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;(cut &amp; pasted for those of you too =
>shy to ask=20
>your science friends or too short of time to sign on to chemweb. I have =
>a=20
>warning that some changes too script may occur&nbsp;upon sending so I =
>have=20
>attached a word 2000 doc. but recommend referring to chemweb's CPS =
>Chemistry=20
>Preprint server for full paper (free access).</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
>size=3D3></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times =
>New Roman">I=20
><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times =
>New Roman"><SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>I knew it would be difficult to =
>avoid the=20
>Bell shaped curve: <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times =
>New Roman"><SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-tab-count: =
>1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
></SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt 35.4pt; TEXT-ALIGN: =
>center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">The Bell Shaped=20
>Curve:<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New =
>Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal=20
>style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Not the one of dreams,=20
>actually,<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal=20
>style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">With all its ring of=20
>normality,<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal=20
>style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">And background skewed=20
>tonality,<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal=20
>style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Neither justifiable of=20
>necessity,<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal=20
>style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Trying so to avoid all=20
>criminality,<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal=20
>style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 35.4pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Oft=92 far from proper=20
>musicality.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: =
>35.4pt"><SPAN=20
>lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-tab-count: =
>1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
></SPAN><SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-tab-count: =
>2">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
>p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
></SPAN><SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-tab-count: =
>1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
></SPAN><SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-tab-count: =
>1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
></SPAN>copyright =A9 J.A.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">II<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">=93Stranger still, what does one do when one =
>does not know,=20
>when the certitudes are lacking?<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
>
></SPAN>Will we design a protocol for =91serious fiddling and=20
>fumbling=92?<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Fiddling and fumbling with=20
>variations,<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Mixing and muddling and even=20
>juggling<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">With Time and Temperature and=20
>Space,<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">In order to learn, bit by=20
>bit.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times =
>New Roman"><SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-tab-count: =
>1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
></SPAN><SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-tab-count: =
>1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
></SPAN><SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-tab-count: =
>1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
></SPAN>Adapted from =93From Entropy to Poetry=94<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>=A9 J.A.<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;=20
></SPAN>2002-3<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times =
>New Roman">If I=20
>may use such technological =96 terminology as, =91bit by bit,=92<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
></SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">III<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times =
>New Roman">Here=20
>I add my voice to Latour=92s, <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Surgical action often costs a =
>bomb, big=20
>spender.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Your attitude is ever present, =
>2003 still=20
>tender.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">The situation calls for a Life =
>Saver<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
></SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Could this perchance be a =
>banker?<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
></SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">I do not mean cash hoarding, I=20
>thunder,<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">You looting, plundering, =
>warmongering=20
>murderer.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New =
>Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">(Notice the curves dreams are =
>made of? =93Bell=20
>shape curve=94 rotational transformation, gyrations) Copyright =A9 =
>J.A.<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Dolphins@) ADA Grp.=20
><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">IV.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times =
>New Roman">And=20
>time goes by, nothing sustainable or durable is achieved.=94=20
><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Does entropy=92s &#8710; quantum =
>
>wave(s),<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Universally durable by its very=20
>Nature<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Require sustainability, my=20
>brave(s)?<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New =
>Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">V.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New =
>Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><B><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">BATH - TUBS, CORNED =96 HATS and =
>CHIP =96=20
>POKES.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;=20
></SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><B><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><B><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times =
>New Roman">The=20
>innovation team, through information technology and communication is =
>more=20
>global, apprenticeship still rife with corporate fear, arrogance and in =
>some=20
>instances some megalomania. Latour=92s =93power must first gain =
>awareness of=20
>experimentation underway, understand and explain and moderate=94 neither =
>freeze in=20
>some death like inertial ignorant =
>bliss<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman"><B><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB =
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Cf.=20
>3<SUP>rd</SUP> Law =96Crystal Clear Post 4</SPAN></B><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">, nor hurtle head long into a the =
>predictable,=20
>wall or precipice-a mechanical view is illustrated as follows:=20
><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">=93Last year we were at the edge =
>of a=20
>precipice!<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">This year we shall take a large =
>step=20
>forward.=94<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: =
>35.4pt"><SPAN=20
>lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
>yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>=96An=20
>imaginary punch line from a Presidential address in an some=20
>fictitious,<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: =
>35.4pt"><SPAN=20
>lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;=20
></SPAN>poorly-developed country or region. =
><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">VI.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times =
>New Roman">Or=20
>worse become the source, the epicentre of some explosive front- a =
>chemical view=20
>whose symbol has become, Sept 11. and suicide bombers, so despairingly =
>mislead,=20
>misguided. -Alfred Nobel must turn in his=20
>grave.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times =
>New Roman">And a=20
>nuclear one!<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: =
>35.4pt"><SPAN=20
>lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">=93N=94 as in=20
>Nu-clear?<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">The highest state of strong =
>order,=20
>dawning<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>=93et de ce jour =
>bacteries et=20
>champignons</FONT></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>jailirent =E0 =
>l=92existance pour=20
>dissoudre</FONT></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>et un nouveau =
>champignon est=20
>n=E9=94</FONT></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>(3 lines from =
>J.Updike, Facing=20
>Nature, trad.Alain Suid =93Ode =E0 la D=E9composition=94)</FONT></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Such is Nature =96=20
>reviewed.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New =
>Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">From =91Entropy to =
>Poetry=92<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>copyright =A9=20
>J.A.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New =
>Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New =
>Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times =
>New Roman">VII.=20
><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New =
>Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman"><B><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Footynote 3 - </SPAN></B><SPAN =
>lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Cautionary note:<SPAN=20
>style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>the <B>Four Principles of=20
>Do-Ing</B>:<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>(a =
>pseudo-scientific=20
>enquiry):</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
><OL style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 0cm" type=3D1>
>   <LI class=3DMsoNormal=20
>   style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: =
>list 36.0pt"><FONT=20
>   size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><B><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>   style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">Classical &amp; =
>Biblical</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
>   lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB">- =91Do unto others, =
>as<SPAN=20
>   style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>you would they do unto you. =
>=91=20
>   <B>Security</B>=92</SPAN></FONT></FONT>=20
>   <LI class=3DMsoNormal=20
>   style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: =
>list 36.0pt"><SPAN=20
>   lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>   face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
>yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>The so=20
>   called <B>Business principle</B>:<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
>yes">&nbsp;=20
>   </SPAN>=91Do them before they do you=92.<SPAN=20
>   style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
>   </SPAN>=91<B>Commercial=92</B></FONT></FONT></SPAN>=20
>   <LI class=3DMsoNormal=20
>   style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: =
>list 36.0pt"><SPAN=20
>   lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>   face=3D"Times New Roman">The so called <B>Management Model</B> =91Do =
>it to them=20
>   before they do it to you. <B>Defence =96Attack </B>being the best=20
>   form!<B><o:p></o:p></B></FONT></FONT></SPAN>=20
>   <LI class=3DMsoNormal=20
>   style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: =
>list 36.0pt"><SPAN=20
>   lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>   face=3D"Times New Roman">The <B>=91no-no=92 Model</B> =91Do them in =
>before they do you=20
>   in!<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>=91<B>Totally =
>unlawful</B>=20
>   but=85=92<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></LI></OL>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
>style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
><P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center"=20
>align=3Dcenter><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
>EN-GB"><FONT=20
>size=3D3><FONT=20
>face=3D"Times New =
>Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HT=
>ML>
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>------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C3855A.650E6960--
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest


-- 




From robin.hamilton2  Sun Sep 28 02:30:43 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:30:43 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir
References: <200309272246.h8RMk2ST001128@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100300bb9b70b3abdf@[204.215.200.228]>
Message-ID: <001d01c3858a$0d661200$4d7e8051@MyPC>

<<
Sitting in the Korzybski Chair,
one's, you are, liable to have such an anxious glimmering.
>>

Well, better that than to be Schrody's cat trapped in a Skinner-box.

<<
>Well, fine, that makes sense.  But, Richard, I'm +still+ not sure why it's
>*Kozysbki's* chair?  Is it the identity thing?

Yes, if by a word you don't and do
have a thing.

The statement in this line is false.
>>

The token is not the item.  I'm a Cretan.

<<
Go back and re-read Professor's Korzybski on his chair; the text WSB
gave me.  Shax has his own version on the wee cliffs of Lear.
>>

Could you give me a page ref to this in S&S, pretty please?  Save me leafing
all the way through.  I've the 1948 edition to hand, not given me by
Burroughs, admittedly, and as the map is not the territory ...  But that
must be the one you have too, given the times, nah?

Hey, the Lear association is a neat one in this area.  Not just the cliffs,
gathering samphire dreadful trade, but the whole lash-up around Edgar and
identity.  Creating worlds out of words.  And at the end, Zorro the Masked
Avenger.  Is Edgar finally Edmund?  Simply the thing I am shall make me
live.  Only who is he?

(For that, I'll be nice and not retail to the list your description of what
happens at the end of /Hamlet/.  <g> )

<<
"Puff, The Magic Dragon" was a jjoint back in the Sixties went up in smoke.
>>

Ah, sure ...  But it really is *specifically* Australian in this context.

When the Seekers got back together in the nineties for their 25th
anniversary reunion concert, Puff the Magic Dragon was one of the songs
Judith Durham sang.   Indeed, they sound *much* more Australian there (and
bloody good as well) than they ever did before.

But to loop back to 63, before even they left Oz, the song they recorded for
their demo-tape was "Children, go where I send you."

What I want to know, and mibee one of the Aussies on the list can explain
this, is what a group of nice Australian kids were doing picking the
*American* version of Green Grow the Rushes/The Dilly Song for a demo tape?

(Actually, I realise I'm asking the question on the wrong list.  Maybe I
ought to copy this to poetryexpresso.  More Australians there.)

Baffled in Britain.





From halvard  Sun Sep 28 10:09:34 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:09:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Muriel Rukeyser, "Believing in Those Inexorable Laws"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEICHGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Believing in Those Inexorable Laws

Believing in those inexorable laws
After long rebellion and long discipline
I am cut down to the moment in all my flaws
Creeping to the feet of my master the sun
On the sea-beach, tides beaten by the moon woman,
And will not think of you, but lie at my full length
Among the great breakers. I find the clear outwater
Shine crash speaking of truth behind the law.

The many-following waves turn into you.
I see in vision that northern bay : pines, villages,
And the flat water suddenly rears up
The high wave races against all edicts, taller,
Finally powerful. Water becomes your mouth,
And all laws all polarities your truth.

--Muriel Rukeyser

fr. *The Speed of Darkness*
[New York: Vintage Books, 1971]


Hal                

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From daisyf1  Sun Sep 28 10:18:23 2003
From: daisyf1 (Daisy Fried)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:18:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Buff-po Archives
Message-ID: <20030928.101829.-446373.28.daisyf1@juno.com>

Thanks Gabe. Actually, one look at the, like, 500 messages for the month
of Nov. '98 I'd have to sort through to find the relevant ones, and I
suddenly realized life is short and logged off...Cheers, Daisy


<hi daisy. there are many more interesting things in the Buffpo archives 
<than that fiasco, so I hope you use the archives for other purposes too.

<But here: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/

<Click on the "poetics list archive" button.

<gabe



From anny.ballardini  Sun Sep 28 10:47:58 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 16:47:58 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Archives
References: <20030928.101829.-446373.28.daisyf1@juno.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c385cf$82978b40$571c2dd5@anny>

Yes, this is something I also thought - in a different way. Everything what
we are writing now is recorded - and I am projecting it - for future
generations, they won't have to try to find letters in the attic or down in
the cellar, hidden in-between the pages of books, but just log on, type in
our names, and there they have everything. But on the other hand, the amount
of written material is enormous, and besides that one Author connected with
the other. We can also hypothesize that in the future human beings will have
a more developed brain (if we compare ourselves to what we know of primitive
people, for example), or that a major revolution, like the internet will
arrive, which will make reading easier.
Sun-day, Anny

From: "Daisy Fried" <daisyf1 at juno.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> Thanks Gabe. Actually, one look at the, like, 500 messages for the month
> of Nov. '98 I'd have to sort through to find the relevant ones, and I
> suddenly realized life is short and logged off...Cheers, Daisy
>
>
> <hi daisy. there are many more interesting things in the Buffpo archives
> <than that fiasco, so I hope you use the archives for other purposes too.
>
> <But here: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/
>
> <Click on the "poetics list archive" button.
>
> <gabe
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From anny.ballardini  Sun Sep 28 11:48:58 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:48:58 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Archives
References: <20030928.101829.-446373.28.daisyf1@juno.com> <000d01c385cf$82978b40$571c2dd5@anny>
Message-ID: <002a01c385d8$08330f60$571c2dd5@anny>

Adding:
here are a couple of my letters I would be happy they found, and maybe skip
a lot of other things I wrote:
http://www.muse-apprentice-guild.com/summer_2003/1diaries_journals_letters/home.html


From: "Anny Ballardini" <anny.ballardini at tin.it>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> Yes, this is something I also thought - in a different way. Everything
what
> we are writing now is recorded - and I am projecting it - for future
> generations, they won't have to try to find letters in the attic or down
in
> the cellar, hidden in-between the pages of books, but just log on, type in
> our names, and there they have everything. But on the other hand, the
amount
> of written material is enormous, and besides that one Author connected
with
> the other. We can also hypothesize that in the future human beings will
have
> a more developed brain (if we compare ourselves to what we know of
primitive
> people, for example), or that a major revolution, like the internet will
> arrive, which will make reading easier.
> Sun-day, Anny
>
> From: "Daisy Fried" <daisyf1 at juno.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>
>
> > Thanks Gabe. Actually, one look at the, like, 500 messages for the month
> > of Nov. '98 I'd have to sort through to find the relevant ones, and I
> > suddenly realized life is short and logged off...Cheers, Daisy
> >
> >
> > <hi daisy. there are many more interesting things in the Buffpo archives
> > <than that fiasco, so I hope you use the archives for other purposes
too.
> >
> > <But here: http://epc.buffalo.edu/poetics/
> >
> > <Click on the "poetics list archive" button.
> >
> > <gabe
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From grahamd  Sun Sep 28 12:55:03 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:55:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blues Poems
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030927202227.00ab0098@mail.tbhinc.com>
Message-ID: <BB9C7C97.46D9%grahamd@ripon.edu>

A sample from Kevin Young's *Blues Poems* anthology--

Swing Shift Blues
    --Alan Dugan

What is better than leaving a bar
in the middle of the afternoon
besides staying in it or not
having gone into it in the first place
because you had a decent woman to be with?
The air smells particularly fresh
after the stale beer and piss smells.
You can stare up at the whole sky:
it's blue and white and does not
stare back at you like the bar mirror,
and there's What's-'is-name coming out
right behind you saying, "I don't
believe it, I don't believe it: there
he is, staring up at the fucking sky
with his mouth open. Don't
you realize, you stupid son of a bitch,
that it is a quarter to four
and we have to clock in in
fifteen minutes to go to work?"
So we go to work and do no work
and can even breathe in the Bull's face
because he's been into the other bar
that we don't go to when he's there.




====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================

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From elemenope  Sun Sep 28 02:38:09 2003
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:38:09 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir (Robin Hamilton)
In-Reply-To: <200309281601.h8SG18ST004945@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200309281601.h8SG18ST004945@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100307bb9c2afbb02e@[204.215.201.158]>

>


Please, remind me: Just what were you talking about?










>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 1
>From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:30:43 +0100
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
><<
>Sitting in the Korzybski Chair,
>one's, you are, liable to have such an anxious glimmering.
>>>
>
>Well, better that than to be Schrody's cat trapped in a Skinner-box.
>
><<
>>Well, fine, that makes sense.  But, Richard, I'm +still+ not sure why it's
>>*Kozysbki's* chair?  Is it the identity thing?
>
>Yes, if by a word you don't and do
>have a thing.
>
>The statement in this line is false.
>>>
>
>The token is not the item.  I'm a Cretan.
>
><<
>Go back and re-read Professor's Korzybski on his chair; the text WSB
>gave me.  Shax has his own version on the wee cliffs of Lear.
>>>
>
>Could you give me a page ref to this in S&S, pretty please?  Save me leafing
>all the way through.  I've the 1948 edition to hand, not given me by
>Burroughs, admittedly, and as the map is not the territory ...  But that
>must be the one you have too, given the times, nah?
>
>Hey, the Lear association is a neat one in this area.  Not just the cliffs,
>gathering samphire dreadful trade, but the whole lash-up around Edgar and
>identity.  Creating worlds out of words.  And at the end, Zorro the Masked
>Avenger.  Is Edgar finally Edmund?  Simply the thing I am shall make me
>live.  Only who is he?
>
>(For that, I'll be nice and not retail to the list your description of what
>happens at the end of /Hamlet/.  <g> )
>
><<
>"Puff, The Magic Dragon" was a jjoint back in the Sixties went up in smoke.
>>>
>
>Ah, sure ...  But it really is *specifically* Australian in this context.
>
>When the Seekers got back together in the nineties for their 25th
>anniversary reunion concert, Puff the Magic Dragon was one of the songs
>Judith Durham sang.   Indeed, they sound *much* more Australian there (and
>bloody good as well) than they ever did before.
>
>But to loop back to 63, before even they left Oz, the song they recorded for
>their demo-tape was "Children, go where I send you."
>
>What I want to know, and mibee one of the Aussies on the list can explain
>this, is what a group of nice Australian kids were doing picking the
>*American* version of Green Grow the Rushes/The Dilly Song for a demo tape?
>
>(Actually, I realise I'm asking the question on the wrong list.  Maybe I
>ought to copy this to poetryexpresso.  More Australians there.)
>
>Baffled in Britain.
>

-- 



From robin.hamilton2  Sun Sep 28 15:40:58 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:40:58 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir (Robin Hamilton)
References: <200309281601.h8SG18ST004945@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100307bb9c2afbb02e@[204.215.201.158]>
Message-ID: <002501c385f8$70edeb90$89948051@MyPC>

> Please, remind me: Just what were you talking about?

The non-Aristotelean actual-instance of a specific chair which you
referenced as "Kozybski's", if we can even allow identity as persisting in
time, which is itelf dubious in Count Alfred's terms, as any reference to
"the" chair strictly speaking ought to be couched in terms of a local
space-time context.

But if we go down that route, is the Richard I'm mailing now, the "Richard"
"I" was talking to earlier?

Who

Although, come to think of it, the entire basis for this dialogue is
undercut as we're communicating by means of what must be the ultimate
Aristotelean (useful) fiction, digital computers operating in strictly
Yes-No terms.

Perhaps

And Schrodinger's moggy *isn't* irrelevant here, as the apparent paradox
behind that particular mind game only exists in an Aristotelean universe.
Where Achilles never does overtake the tortoise.

Let's hear it for slide-rules and analogue processing.

not-Babbage

(PS -- have a look at pp. 34-35 of /The Lost Jockey/.  Any instance of that
text, I'm not picky.

Someone.)

"Blue is the color of my true-love's eyes"

Is the color blue the same as the colour blue?

Depends on which spell-check program(me) you-all use.





From grahamd  Sun Sep 28 16:40:34 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:40:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blues Poems
In-Reply-To: <BB9C7C97.46D9%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <BB9CB172.46F1%grahamd@ripon.edu>

And another from Kevin Young's *Blues Poems* anthology--


Morning After

I was so sick last night I
Didn't hardly know my mind.
So sick last night I
Didn't know my mind.
I drunk some bad licker that
Almost made me blind.

Had a dream last night I
Thought I was in hell.
I drempt last night I
Thought I was in hell.
Woke up and looked around me--
Babe, your mouth was open like a well.

I said, Baby! Baby!
Please don't snore so loud.
Baby! Please!
Please don't snore so loud.
You jest a little bit o' woman but you
Sound like a great big crowd.
--Langston Hughes

====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================



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From robin.hamilton2  Sun Sep 28 17:13:38 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:13:38 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blues Poems
References: <BB9CB172.46F1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <003a01c38605$62d39de0$89948051@MyPC>

Blues PoemsFrom: David Graham

<<
And another from Kevin Young's *Blues Poems* anthology--

Morning After

I was so sick last night I
Didn't hardly know my mind.
So sick last night I
Didn't know my mind.
I drunk some bad licker that
Almost made me blind.

Had a dream last night I
Thought I was in hell.
I drempt last night I
Thought I was in hell.
Woke up and looked around me--
Babe, your mouth was open like a well.

I said, Baby! Baby!
Please don't snore so loud.
Baby! Please!
Please don't snore so loud.
You jest a little bit o' woman but you
Sound like a great big crowd.
--Langston Hughes
>>

For some reason, this reminds me of Blind Willie McTell's "The Dying
Crapshooter's Blues".  And the Satchmo version of St James Infirmary.  And
Cab Calloway.

Something to do with the rhythm of the words ...

She is dead and gone, god bless her ...

    What broke Jesse's heart while he was blue and all alone
    Sweet Lorena packed up and gone
    Police walked up and shot my friend Jesse down
    Boys I got to die today

Robin

Mind you ...

    You jest a little bit o' woman but you
    Sound like a great big crowd.

... has to link to Dylan, either back or forth.

Robin







From ron.silliman  Mon Sep 29 07:12:46 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:12:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c3867a$a129a920$a070ed41@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

"This is a totally / accessible poem" -
Meaning & masks in Charles Bernstein

Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

Anthony Tognazzini -
Constructing selves in writing
(my poem "Berkeley" for example)

Kudzu textuality
in deep weeds

Russian poetry & the American South
(Another South, an anthology from Bill Lavender)

Del Ray Cross'
Cinema Yosemite -
elegance & specificity

Paul Blackburn
writes a "lunch poem"
Ritual XVII

Jacob's fallacy - 
Thinking small about the prose poem

Postmodern in Bali

In the dark:
Waiting for Izzy

Stacy Szymaszek -
Woodland Pattern goes to sea

Audience vs. Community

The Houlihan fiasco


http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/







From sondheim  Mon Sep 29 11:25:26 2003
From: sondheim (Alan Sondheim)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:25:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] CALL FOR PROPOSALS for INCUBATION3 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.58.0309291125150.14749@panix3.panix.com>

CALL FOR PROPOSALS for INCUBATION3
The 3rd trAce International Symposium on Writing and the Internet
12-14 July 2004 at The Nottingham Trent University, England
http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/

We are pleased to invite proposals for Incubation3, the leading international event for writers and artists working online.

Proposals should be submitted via an online form which will be available on the website from Friday 10th October 2003: http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/

Deadline for Proposals 1st December 2003
Selections announced by 31st January 2004

Keynote Speaker: Mark Amerika
Plus: Paul Brown, Alan Sondheim, Tim Wright
Also featuring: Talan Memmott, Kate Pullinger, Stefan Schemat

Conference Committee
Randy Adams : Paul Brown : Catherine Byron : Jane Dorner : Marjorie Luesebrink : Simon Mills : Alan Sondheim : Sue Thomas : Lawrence Upton : Helen Whitehead

BURSARIES
New at Incubation3 - 30 bursaries are available for delegates and presenters
Generously funded by Arts Council England: East Midlands: http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/aboutus/myregion_eastmidlands.html

Applications should be submitted via an online form which will be available on the website from Friday 10th October 2003: http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/

Previous Incubations
Incubation 2000: http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/archive/2000/index.htm
Incubation 2002: http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/index2002.cfm

Why a Symposium?
Those familiar with Incubation will notice that we are now a Symposium rather than a Conference. This heralds a subtle shift, not in identity, but in the way we promote the event. Incubation has always been very practice-based and in 2004 it will be even more so. Thanks to Arts Council England (http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/) we are offering a total of 30 bursaries to enable those who cannot obtain funding elsewhere to attend the full residential conference at no charge. We expect this injection of financial support to provide a greater balance of academia and professional writers and artists.

Themes
The purpose of Incubation has always been to provide ideas, stimulus and motivation; information and debate for the international new media writing community. We aim to encourage interdisciplinary creativity and cross-fertilisation, and we are especially interested in introducing the form to writers for whom it is a new idea as well as helping practitioners to share and expand their work.
The themes for 2004 are:
A. Developing a new form: contemporary textual works in new media and performance
B. The practice of making: creative and professional practice; online teaching and learning.
C. Critique and criteria: criticism, reviewing, defining, and archiving of new media writing.

TYPES OF PROPOSALS SOUGHT
Proposals will not be considered unless they are submitted via the online form. When completing the form please indicate which of the above themes (A, B or C) your proposal relates to.

Guidelines
In order to make the field as open as possible we have kept guidelines to a minimum but as a rough guide, we encourage lively debate and provocative thinking about:
*recent work by both new and established writers and artists. You may simply show/perform the work, or accompany it with a practice-based commentary or formal critique
*explorations of the ways in which new media works are made, discussed, reviewed, categorised and archived
*explorations of online teaching and learning in a creative context
*surprise us!

1. Presentations - 20 minutes
We invite proposals for 20 minute presentations which we will group together in panels of three with an added 30 minutes for questions. You are also welcome to organise and propose your own panel.

2. Performances
A number of 20 minute presentation periods may be used for short performances / presentations of work. In addition a number of longer evening sessions may be available. We particularly welcome performances which extend limits and cross boundaries. Proposals should describe the performance and specify technical support required, set-up times, audience profiles, length of performance, etc.

3. Workshops - 1 hour
There will be space for a limited number of hands-on workshops. We are interested in workshops with a specific technical or artistic focus. Please indicate whether you require a PC resource room or a regular classroom.

4. Position Papers/Posters - 10-15 minutes
There will be a limited number of 1 hour sessions beginning with the presentation of a short position paper which will have been put online before the conference and which will act as a stimulus for discussion. These sessions will be chaired and a scribe will be provided. We invite contentious papers with scope for energetic debate. The online ?paper? may be in text or any new media format which will be viewable at the discussion and should be submitted by 1st June 2004.

Details of the technology available in our presentation rooms will be available on the website from 10th October 2003: http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/

ADDITIONAL COLLABORATIVE PROJECT FOR NEW MEDIA / VIDEO / SOUND ARTISTS
We hope to obtain funding for Online/Offline, a collaborative project connecting three new media writers with three video artists and a sound artist to work together online to create an original piece to be premiered at Incubation. Application time for this is likely to be short - current planning is to invite applications from new media writers during the month of December only. The video artists and sound artist will be based in the East Midlands and will be separately appointed. Register for updates to receive further information: http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/informed.cfm

Incubation is generously supported by
Arts Council England: East Midlands: http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/aboutus/myregion_eastmidlands.html
NESTA: http://www.nesta.org.uk/ through Writers for the Future: http://www.writersforthefuture.com/

For further information please contact Catherine Gillam at incubation at ntu.ac.uk or by telephoning +44 (0)115 8483533.


the trAce Online Writing Centre
trace at ntu.ac.uk
http://trace.ntu.ac.uk
The Nottingham Trent University
Clifton, Nottingham NG11 8NS, UK
Tel: + 44 (0) 115 848 6360
Fax:  + 44 (0) 115 848 6364


You have received this mail because you visited the trAce site and registered to be kept informed of
our activities. If you would like to be removed from this database, please send an email to
trace at ntu.ac.uk with the subject line UNSUB REGISTER. Please be sure that you send the email from
the address with which you registered, or give your name in the body of your email.




From elemenope  Mon Sep 29 01:34:30 2003
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:34:30 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: KorZybski ChAir
In-Reply-To: <200309291601.h8TG13ST011450@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200309291601.h8TG13ST011450@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100302bb9d68db231f@[204.215.201.203]>


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>CLOSURE

>
>A few words.
>The chair stands back to life.
>Was it ever disassembled?
>Prove it.  I doubt it, sitting on it.



>RD
>
>ELEMENOPE Productions
>
>"A Satisfied Buyer and Manufacturer of the Korzybski Chair."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After the razor blade asides to a nonexistent peanut gallery, after 
the windmill punches, after the flak, we receive, in response, 
something relevant to the question:

>Please, remind me: Just what were you (R.H.) talking about?

This:

>
>>The non-Aristotelean actual-instance of a specific chair which you
>>referenced as "Kozybski's", if we can even allow identity as persisting in
>>time, which is itelf dubious in Count Alfred's terms, as any reference to
>>"the" chair strictly speaking ought to be couched in terms of a local
>space-time context.


_Closure_ was made in response to the thread regarding "free" verse, 
and not made in response to Dr. Hamilton.  For him (see his other 
post in this current batch) [note the editorial marker] was created:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KorZybski ChAir

You seem to be somewhat discomfited and not a little not incurious 
about my Korzybski chair.  I am not a selfish man.  Here, you take it 
by the arms properly from the back and carry it where it will please 
you, say, by that window overlooking the alpine meadow stretching 
down to the sun-thrilled sea
whence, I hear, once long ago my people came among your own and not as friends.
Are you thirsty?  Here, a thimble shot of what we call "Inthrall."  Be still.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Williams in _Spring and All_ began to address the reasons why he 
(and American poets to come) would be unable to recreate within the 
body of their prosodic practices the received verse traditions and 
character of the British literary tradition.  His tenet:

>No ideas but in things.

continues to be an algorhythm that takes AmerEnglish into a web of 
its own making.  It's an ethos thing born of necessities including 
the polyglot linguistical environment converging at high speed round 
the clock plus certain psychodynamic factors in the American psyche. 
Have to type real fast to just keep up! (Thus, the problem of 
"closure."  See Bruce Andrews.)

As to LangPo: it as a genre is simply (for me) a continuation of what 
Dr. Williams and his peers got going a half century ago.

It is within my rights, as poet, not academic, to "play" using what I 
see as "irony" with Professor Korzybski and the problems he proposes 
for his readers.
_Closure_ may be uninteresting to anyone else but myself, it may not 
instigate an interest in Dr. William's, its ironic nod to Dr. 
Korzybski may not amuse (by way of my commentaries)
.
But it says what I wanted it to say the way I wanted it to say it and 
I stand by it.  (And _K...C_, also!)




RD

ELEMENOPE Productions

"Conjurer of KorzYbski Chairs for One or Two Poems"








>
>
>>
>>
>>-- __--__--
>>
>>Message: 1
>>From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir
>>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:30:43 +0100
>>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>
>><<
>>Sitting in the Korzybski Chair,
>>one's, you are, liable to have such an anxious glimmering.
>>>>
>>
>>Well, better that than to be Schrody's cat trapped in a Skinner-box.
>>
>><<
>>>Well, fine, that makes sense.  But, Richard, I'm +still+ not sure why it's
>>>*Kozysbki's* chair?  Is it the identity thing?
>>
>>Yes, if by a word you don't and do
>>have a thing.
>>
>>The statement in this line is false.
>>>>
>>
>>The token is not the item.  I'm a Cretan.
>>
>><<
>>Go back and re-read Professor's Korzybski on his chair; the text WSB
>>gave me.  Shax has his own version on the wee cliffs of Lear.
>>>>
>>
>>Could you give me a page ref to this in S&S, pretty please?  Save me leafing
>  >all the way through.  I've the 1948 edition to hand, not given me by
>>Burroughs, admittedly, and as the map is not the territory ...  But that
>>must be the one you have too, given the times, nah?
>>
>>Hey, the Lear association is a neat one in this area.  Not just the cliffs,
>>gathering samphire dreadful trade, but the whole lash-up around Edgar and
>>identity.  Creating worlds out of words.  And at the end, Zorro the Masked
>>Avenger.  Is Edgar finally Edmund?  Simply the thing I am shall make me
>>live.  Only who is he?
>>
>>(For that, I'll be nice and not retail to the list your description of what
>>happens at the end of /Hamlet/.  <g> )
>>
>><<
>>"Puff, The Magic Dragon" was a jjoint back in the Sixties went up in smoke.
>>>>
>>
>>Ah, sure ...  But it really is *specifically* Australian in this context.
>>
>>When the Seekers got back together in the nineties for their 25th
>>anniversary reunion concert, Puff the Magic Dragon was one of the songs
>>Judith Durham sang.   Indeed, they sound *much* more Australian there (and
>>bloody good as well) than they ever did before.
>>
>>But to loop back to 63, before even they left Oz, the song they recorded for
>>their demo-tape was "Children, go where I send you."
>>
>>What I want to know, and mibee one of the Aussies on the list can explain
>>this, is what a group of nice Australian kids were doing picking the
>>*American* version of Green Grow the Rushes/The Dilly Song for a demo tape?
>>
>>(Actually, I realise I'm asking the question on the wrong list.  Maybe I
>>ought to copy this to poetryexpresso.  More Australians there.)
>>
>>Baffled in Britain.
>>
>
>--
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 3
>From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir (Robin Hamilton)
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:40:58 +0100
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>>  Please, remind me: Just what were you talking about?
>
>The non-Aristotelean actual-instance of a specific chair which you
>referenced as "Kozybski's", if we can even allow identity as persisting in
>time, which is itelf dubious in Count Alfred's terms, as any reference to
>"the" chair strictly speaking ought to be couched in terms of a local
>space-time context.
>
>But if we go down that route, is the Richard I'm mailing now, the "Richard"
>"I" was talking to earlier?
>
>Who
>
>Although, come to think of it, the entire basis for this dialogue is
>undercut as we're communicating by means of what must be the ultimate
>Aristotelean (useful) fiction, digital computers operating in strictly
>Yes-No terms.
>
>Perhaps
>
>And Schrodinger's moggy *isn't* irrelevant here, as the apparent paradox
>behind that particular mind game only exists in an Aristotelean universe.
>Where Achilles never does overtake the tortoise.
>
>Let's hear it for slide-rules and analogue processing.
>
>not-Babbage
>
>(PS -- have a look at pp. 34-35 of /The Lost Jockey/.  Any instance of that
>text, I'm not picky.
>
>Someone.)
>
>"Blue is the color of my true-love's eyes"
>
>Is the color blue the same as the colour blue?
>
>Depends on which spell-check program(me) you-all use.
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 15:40:34 -0500
>From: David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Blues Poems
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>>  This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
>this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
>
>--MS_Mac_OE_3147608434_395675_MIME_Part
>Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
>
>And another from Kevin Young's *Blues Poems* anthology--
>
>
>Morning After
>
>I was so sick last night I
>Didn't hardly know my mind.
>So sick last night I
>Didn't know my mind.
>I drunk some bad licker that
>Almost made me blind.
>
>Had a dream last night I
>Thought I was in hell.
>I drempt last night I
>Thought I was in hell.
>Woke up and looked around me--
>Babe, your mouth was open like a well.
>
>I said, Baby! Baby!
>Please don't snore so loud.
>Baby! Please!
>Please don't snore so loud.
>You jest a little bit o' woman but you
>Sound like a great big crowd.
>--Langston Hughes
>
>====================================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>====================================================
>
>
>
>
>--MS_Mac_OE_3147608434_395675_MIME_Part
>Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
>
><HTML>
><HEAD>
><TITLE>Blues Poems</TITLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY>
>And another from Kevin Young's *Blues Poems* anthology--<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><FONT FACE=3D"Palatino"><B>Morning After<BR>
><BR>
></B>I was so sick last night I<BR>
>Didn't hardly know my mind.<BR>
>So sick last night I<BR>
>Didn't know my mind.<BR>
>I drunk some bad licker that<BR>
>Almost made me blind.<BR>
><BR>
>Had a dream last night I<BR>
>Thought I was in hell.<BR>
>I drempt last night I<BR>
>Thought I was in hell.<BR>
>Woke up and looked around me--<BR>
>Babe, your mouth was open like a well.<BR>
><BR>
>I said, Baby! Baby!<BR>
>Please don't snore so loud.<BR>
>Baby! Please!<BR>
>Please don't snore so loud.<BR>
>You jest a little bit o' woman but you<BR>
>Sound like a great big crowd.<BR>
>--Langston Hughes<BR>
></FONT><BR>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>
>David Graham<BR>
>grahamd at ripon.edu<BR>
>Home Page:<BR>
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html<BR>
>Poetry Library:<BR>
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html<BR>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>
><BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
><BR>
></BLOCKQUOTE>
></BODY>
></HTML>
>
>
>--MS_Mac_OE_3147608434_395675_MIME_Part--
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 5
>From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Blues Poems
>Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:13:38 +0100
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Blues PoemsFrom: David Graham
>
><<
>And another from Kevin Young's *Blues Poems* anthology--
>
>Morning After
>
>I was so sick last night I
>Didn't hardly know my mind.
>So sick last night I
>Didn't know my mind.
>I drunk some bad licker that
>Almost made me blind.
>
>Had a dream last night I
>Thought I was in hell.
>I drempt last night I
>Thought I was in hell.
>Woke up and looked around me--
>Babe, your mouth was open like a well.
>
>I said, Baby! Baby!
>Please don't snore so loud.
>Baby! Please!
>Please don't snore so loud.
>You jest a little bit o' woman but you
>Sound like a great big crowd.
>--Langston Hughes
>>>
>
>For some reason, this reminds me of Blind Willie McTell's "The Dying
>Crapshooter's Blues".  And the Satchmo version of St James Infirmary.  And
>Cab Calloway.
>
>Something to do with the rhythm of the words ...
>
>She is dead and gone, god bless her ...
>
>     What broke Jesse's heart while he was blue and all alone
>     Sweet Lorena packed up and gone
>     Police walked up and shot my friend Jesse down
>     Boys I got to die today
>
>Robin
>
>Mind you ...
>
>     You jest a little bit o' woman but you
>     Sound like a great big crowd.
>
>... has to link to Dylan, either back or forth.
>
>Robin
>
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 6
>From: "Ron" <ron.silliman at verizon.net>
>To: "WOM-PO" <WOM-PO at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>, <BRITISH-POETS at JISCMAIL.AC.UK>,
>    <nanders1 at swarthmore.edu>, <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>,
>    <POETICS at listserv.BUFFALO.EDU>, "'whpoets'" <whpoets at english.upenn.edu>
>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 07:12:46 -0400
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/
>
>"This is a totally / accessible poem" -
>Meaning & masks in Charles Bernstein
>
>Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar
>
>Anthony Tognazzini -
>Constructing selves in writing
>(my poem "Berkeley" for example)
>
>Kudzu textuality
>in deep weeds
>
>Russian poetry & the American South
>(Another South, an anthology from Bill Lavender)
>
>Del Ray Cross'
>Cinema Yosemite -
>elegance & specificity
>
>Paul Blackburn
>writes a "lunch poem"
>Ritual XVII
>
>Jacob's fallacy -
>Thinking small about the prose poem
>
>Postmodern in Bali
>
>In the dark:
>Waiting for Izzy
>
>Stacy Szymaszek -
>Woodland Pattern goes to sea
>
>Audience vs. Community
>
>The Houlihan fiasco
>
>
>http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:25:26 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Alan Sondheim <sondheim at panix.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] CALL FOR PROPOSALS for INCUBATION3 (fwd)
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
>CALL FOR PROPOSALS for INCUBATION3
>The 3rd trAce International Symposium on Writing and the Internet
>12-14 July 2004 at The Nottingham Trent University, England
>http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/
>
>We are pleased to invite proposals for Incubation3, the leading 
>international event for writers and artists working online.
>
>Proposals should be submitted via an online form which will be 
>available on the website from Friday 10th October 2003: 
>http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/
>
>Deadline for Proposals 1st December 2003
>Selections announced by 31st January 2004
>
>Keynote Speaker: Mark Amerika
>Plus: Paul Brown, Alan Sondheim, Tim Wright
>Also featuring: Talan Memmott, Kate Pullinger, Stefan Schemat
>
>Conference Committee
>Randy Adams : Paul Brown : Catherine Byron : Jane Dorner : Marjorie 
>Luesebrink : Simon Mills : Alan Sondheim : Sue Thomas : Lawrence 
>Upton : Helen Whitehead
>
>BURSARIES
>New at Incubation3 - 30 bursaries are available for delegates and presenters
>Generously funded by Arts Council England: East Midlands: 
>http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/aboutus/myregion_eastmidlands.html
>
>Applications should be submitted via an online form which will be 
>available on the website from Friday 10th October 2003: 
>http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/
>
>Previous Incubations
>Incubation 2000: http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/archive/2000/index.htm
>Incubation 2002: http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/index2002.cfm
>
>Why a Symposium?
>Those familiar with Incubation will notice that we are now a 
>Symposium rather than a Conference. This heralds a subtle shift, not 
>in identity, but in the way we promote the event. Incubation has 
>always been very practice-based and in 2004 it will be even more so. 
>Thanks to Arts Council England (http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/) we 
>are offering a total of 30 bursaries to enable those who cannot 
>obtain funding elsewhere to attend the full residential conference 
>at no charge. We expect this injection of financial support to 
>provide a greater balance of academia and professional writers and 
>artists.
>
>Themes
>The purpose of Incubation has always been to provide ideas, stimulus 
>and motivation; information and debate for the international new 
>media writing community. We aim to encourage interdisciplinary 
>creativity and cross-fertilisation, and we are especially interested 
>in introducing the form to writers for whom it is a new idea as well 
>as helping practitioners to share and expand their work.
>The themes for 2004 are:
>A. Developing a new form: contemporary textual works in new media 
>and performance
>B. The practice of making: creative and professional practice; 
>online teaching and learning.
>C. Critique and criteria: criticism, reviewing, defining, and 
>archiving of new media writing.
>
>TYPES OF PROPOSALS SOUGHT
>Proposals will not be considered unless they are submitted via the 
>online form. When completing the form please indicate which of the 
>above themes (A, B or C) your proposal relates to.
>
>Guidelines
>In order to make the field as open as possible we have kept 
>guidelines to a minimum but as a rough guide, we encourage lively 
>debate and provocative thinking about:
>*recent work by both new and established writers and artists. You 
>may simply show/perform the work, or accompany it with a 
>practice-based commentary or formal critique
>*explorations of the ways in which new media works are made, 
>discussed, reviewed, categorised and archived
>*explorations of online teaching and learning in a creative context
>*surprise us!
>
>1. Presentations - 20 minutes
>We invite proposals for 20 minute presentations which we will group 
>together in panels of three with an added 30 minutes for questions. 
>You are also welcome to organise and propose your own panel.
>
>2. Performances
>A number of 20 minute presentation periods may be used for short 
>performances / presentations of work. In addition a number of longer 
>evening sessions may be available. We particularly welcome 
>performances which extend limits and cross boundaries. Proposals 
>should describe the performance and specify technical support 
>required, set-up times, audience profiles, length of performance, 
>etc.
>
>3. Workshops - 1 hour
>There will be space for a limited number of hands-on workshops. We 
>are interested in workshops with a specific technical or artistic 
>focus. Please indicate whether you require a PC resource room or a 
>regular classroom.
>
>4. Position Papers/Posters - 10-15 minutes
>There will be a limited number of 1 hour sessions beginning with the 
>presentation of a short position paper which will have been put 
>online before the conference and which will act as a stimulus for 
>discussion. These sessions will be chaired and a scribe will be 
>provided. We invite contentious papers with scope for energetic 
>debate. The online ?paper? may be in text or any new media format 
>which will be viewable at the discussion and should be submitted by 
>1st June 2004.
>
>Details of the technology available in our presentation rooms will 
>be available on the website from 10th October 2003: 
>http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/
>
>ADDITIONAL COLLABORATIVE PROJECT FOR NEW MEDIA / VIDEO / SOUND ARTISTS
>We hope to obtain funding for Online/Offline, a collaborative 
>project connecting three new media writers with three video artists 
>and a sound artist to work together online to create an original 
>piece to be premiered at Incubation. Application time for this is 
>likely to be short - current planning is to invite applications from 
>new media writers during the month of December only. The video 
>artists and sound artist will be based in the East Midlands and will 
>be separately appointed. Register for updates to receive further 
>information: http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/informed.cfm
>
>Incubation is generously supported by
>Arts Council England: East Midlands: 
>http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/aboutus/myregion_eastmidlands.html
>NESTA: http://www.nesta.org.uk/ through Writers for the Future: 
>http://www.writersforthefuture.com/
>
>For further information please contact Catherine Gillam at 
>incubation at ntu.ac.uk or by telephoning +44 (0)115 8483533.
>
>
>the trAce Online Writing Centre
>trace at ntu.ac.uk
>http://trace.ntu.ac.uk
>The Nottingham Trent University
>Clifton, Nottingham NG11 8NS, UK
>Tel: + 44 (0) 115 848 6360
>Fax:  + 44 (0) 115 848 6364
>
>
>You have received this mail because you visited the trAce site and 
>registered to be kept informed of
>our activities. If you would like to be removed from this database, 
>please send an email to
>trace at ntu.ac.uk with the subject line UNSUB REGISTER. Please be sure 
>that you send the email from
>the address with which you registered, or give your name in the body 
>of your email.
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest


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From Cadaly  Mon Sep 29 13:46:13 2003
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:46:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] October Ink
Message-ID: <1ce.11ae3435.2ca9c9e5@aol.com>

INK MAGAZINE
Newsletter // 9.29.03
 
 
The October issue is now available.  
 
This issue is huge. If you fail to read it, we have a feeling the universe 
will rapidly crumble and destroy life as we know it. Please don?t let this 
happen. You have a responsibility to help ensure the survival of the world. 
 
We?ve also made a few design alterations to assist in your stress-free 
navigation of the site and increase your overall feeling of well being.
 
 
Issue 5 // October 2003
 
 
FEATURE ARTICLES
 
And Interview with the Pink Swords: Dani Helle
An Homage to the Man in Black: Jake McGee
Mountain Naming: David Ray
More California Political Silliness, or is It?: Jason Higginson
The Pool Repairman: Catherine O?Sullivan
Documentary: Ivan
 
 
POETRY BY
 
Erika Rozema
Dani Helle
Nallely Ortega
John G. Hall
Graham Nunn
Denise Dee
Catherine Daly
 
 
FICTION
 
Westerns We?ll Never See: Ryan Robert Mullen
When That Dead Girl? : Brentley Frazer
Tom Mueller Vs. Boy Scout Troop 36: Kevin Kuzma
 
 
REVIEWS
 
Please Don?t Kill The Freshman, by Zoe Trope: Matthew Flaming
Deja Entendu, by Brand New: Karen Crawford
 
 
 
READ THE NEW ISSUE NOW
 
And don?t forget about our discussion forum
 
 
 
That is all.
 
Your Favorite Publishing Misfits,
Ink Magazine & Grundle Ink
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From marcus  Mon Sep 29 14:05:03 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:05:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] October Ink
In-Reply-To: <1ce.11ae3435.2ca9c9e5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F783C0F.15745.171CA79@localhost>

http://www.ink-mag.com/ does not resolve to a site.
Sorry
M


On 29 Sep 2003 at 13:46, Cadaly at aol.com wrote:

> 
> INK MAGAZINE
> Newsletter // 9.29.03
> 
> 
> The October issue is now available. 
> 
> This issue is huge. If you fail to read it, we have a feeling the
> universe will rapidly crumble and destroy life as we know it. Please
> don???t let this happen. You have a responsibility to help ensure the
> survival of the world. 
> 
> We???ve also made a few design alterations to assist in your stress-
> free navigation of the site and increase your overall feeling of well
> being.
> 
> 
> Issue 5 // October 2003
> 
> 
> FEATURE ARTICLES
> 
> And Interview with the Pink Swords: Dani Helle
> An Homage to the Man in Black: Jake McGee
> Mountain Naming: David Ray
> More California Political Silliness, or is It?: Jason Higginson
> The Pool Repairman: Catherine O???Sullivan
> Documentary: Ivan
> 
> 
> POETRY BY
> 
> Erika Rozema
> Dani Helle
> Nallely Ortega
> John G. Hall
> Graham Nunn
> Denise Dee
> Catherine Daly
> 
> 
> FICTION
> 
> Westerns We???ll Never See: Ryan Robert Mullen
> When That Dead Girl??? : Brentley Frazer
> Tom Mueller Vs. Boy Scout Troop 36: Kevin Kuzma
> 
> 
> REVIEWS
> 
> Please Don???t Kill The Freshman, by Zoe Trope: Matthew Flaming
> Deja Entendu, by Brand New: Karen Crawford
> 
> 
> 
> READ THE NEW ISSUE NOW
> 
> And don???t forget about our discussion forum
> 
> 
> 
> That is all.
> 
> Your Favorite Publishing Misfits,
> Ink Magazine & Grundle Ink







From robin.hamilton2  Mon Sep 29 14:27:00 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:27:00 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: KorZybski ChAir
References: <200309291601.h8TG13ST011450@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100302bb9d68db231f@[204.215.201.203]>
Message-ID: <00cd01c386b7$4637e030$daba8051@MyPC>

Re: KorZybski ChAirRichard:

<<
CLOSURE

A few words.

The chair stands back to life.
Was it ever disassembled?
Prove it.  I doubt it, sitting on it.
>>

The chair falls in the pond.
    The frog rusts.
        Call me Li-Po

Rihaku

(dreaming he was a flutterbye)




From halvard  Mon Sep 29 14:37:14 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:37:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] October Ink
In-Reply-To: <3F783C0F.15745.171CA79@localhost>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEKIHGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Works fine here, Marcus, both from your message and
hers.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

{    http://www.ink-mag.com/ does not resolve to a site.
{    Sorry
{    M
{
{
{    On 29 Sep 2003 at 13:46, Cadaly at aol.com wrote:
{
{    >
{    > INK MAGAZINE
{    > Newsletter // 9.29.03
{    >
{    >
{    > The October issue is now available.
{    >
{    > This issue is huge. If you fail to read it, we have a feeling the
{    > universe will rapidly crumble and destroy life as we know it. Please
{    > don???t let this happen. You have a responsibility to help ensure the
{    > survival of the world.
{    >
{    > We???ve also made a few design alterations to assist in your stress-
{    > free navigation of the site and increase your overall feeling of well
{    > being.
{    >
{    >
{    > Issue 5 // October 2003
{    >
{    >
{    > FEATURE ARTICLES
{    >
{    > And Interview with the Pink Swords: Dani Helle
{    > An Homage to the Man in Black: Jake McGee
{    > Mountain Naming: David Ray
{    > More California Political Silliness, or is It?: Jason Higginson
{    > The Pool Repairman: Catherine O???Sullivan
{    > Documentary: Ivan
{    >
{    >
{    > POETRY BY
{    >
{    > Erika Rozema
{    > Dani Helle
{    > Nallely Ortega
{    > John G. Hall
{    > Graham Nunn
{    > Denise Dee
{    > Catherine Daly
{    >
{    >
{    > FICTION
{    >
{    > Westerns We???ll Never See: Ryan Robert Mullen
{    > When That Dead Girl??? : Brentley Frazer
{    > Tom Mueller Vs. Boy Scout Troop 36: Kevin Kuzma
{    >
{    >
{    > REVIEWS
{    >
{    > Please Don???t Kill The Freshman, by Zoe Trope: Matthew Flaming
{    > Deja Entendu, by Brand New: Karen Crawford
{    >
{    >
{    >
{    > READ THE NEW ISSUE NOW
{    >
{    > And don???t forget about our discussion forum
{    >
{    >
{    >
{    > That is all.
{    >
{    > Your Favorite Publishing Misfits,
{    > Ink Magazine & Grundle Ink
{
{
{
{
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From marcus  Mon Sep 29 14:49:26 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:49:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] October Ink
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEKIHGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <3F783C0F.15745.171CA79@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F784676.31597.19A6DAD@localhost>

Still doesn't work for me.
M


On 29 Sep 2003 at 14:37, Halvard Johnson wrote:

> 
> Works fine here, Marcus, both from your message and
> hers.
> 
> Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> {    http://www.ink-mag.com/ does not resolve to a site.
> {    Sorry
> {    M
> {
> {
> {    On 29 Sep 2003 at 13:46, Cadaly at aol.com wrote:
> {
> {    >
> {    > INK MAGAZINE
> {    > Newsletter // 9.29.03
> {    >
> {    >
> {    > The October issue is now available.
> {    >
> {    > This issue is huge. If you fail to read it, we have a feeling
> the {    > universe will rapidly crumble and destroy life as we know
> it. Please {    > don???t let this happen. You have a responsibility
> to help ensure the {    > survival of the world. {    > {    > We???ve
> also made a few design alterations to assist in your stress- {    >
> free navigation of the site and increase your overall feeling of well
> {    > being. {    > {    > {    > Issue 5 // October 2003 {    > {   
> > {    > FEATURE ARTICLES {    > {    > And Interview with the Pink
> Swords: Dani Helle {    > An Homage to the Man in Black: Jake McGee { 
>   > Mountain Naming: David Ray {    > More California Political
> Silliness, or is It?: Jason Higginson {    > The Pool Repairman:
> Catherine O???Sullivan {    > Documentary: Ivan {    > {    > {    >
> POETRY BY {    > {    > Erika Rozema {    > Dani Helle {    > Nallely
> Ortega {    > John G. Hall {    > Graham Nunn {    > Denise Dee {    >
> Catherine Daly {    > {    > {    > FICTION {    > {    > Westerns
> We???ll Never See: Ryan Robert Mullen {    > When That Dead Girl??? :
> Brentley Frazer {    > Tom Mueller Vs. Boy Scout Troop 36: Kevin Kuzma
> {    > {    > {    > REVIEWS {    > {    > Please Don???t Kill The
> Freshman, by Zoe Trope: Matthew Flaming {    > Deja Entendu, by Brand
> New: Karen Crawford {    > {    > {    > {    > READ THE NEW ISSUE NOW
> {    > {    > And don???t forget about our discussion forum {    > {  
>  > {    > {    > That is all. {    > {    > Your Favorite Publishing
> Misfits, {    > Ink Magazine & Grundle Ink { { { { {   
> _______________________________________________ {    New-Poetry
> mailing list {    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu {   
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 







From jvcervantes  Mon Sep 29 14:54:29 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 11:54:29 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] October Ink
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEKIHGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F787FE4.BCA151BC@earthlink.net>

Pops up too on my cranky older system.

- Jim

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> Works fine here, Marcus, both from your message and
> hers.
> 
> Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> {    http://www.ink-mag.com/ does not resolve to a site.
> {    Sorry
> {    M
> {
> {
> {    On 29 Sep 2003 at 13:46, Cadaly at aol.com wrote:
> {
> {    >
> {    > INK MAGAZINE
> {    > Newsletter // 9.29.03
> {    >
> {    >
> {    > The October issue is now available.
> {    >
> {    > This issue is huge. If you fail to read it, we have a feeling the
> {    > universe will rapidly crumble and destroy life as we know it. Please
> {    > don???t let this happen. You have a responsibility to help ensure the
> {    > survival of the world.
> {    >
> {    > We???ve also made a few design alterations to assist in your stress-
> {    > free navigation of the site and increase your overall feeling of well
> {    > being.
> {    >
> {    >
> {    > Issue 5 // October 2003
> {    >
> {    >
> {    > FEATURE ARTICLES
> {    >
> {    > And Interview with the Pink Swords: Dani Helle
> {    > An Homage to the Man in Black: Jake McGee
> {    > Mountain Naming: David Ray
> {    > More California Political Silliness, or is It?: Jason Higginson
> {    > The Pool Repairman: Catherine O???Sullivan
> {    > Documentary: Ivan
> {    >
> {    >
> {    > POETRY BY
> {    >
> {    > Erika Rozema
> {    > Dani Helle
> {    > Nallely Ortega
> {    > John G. Hall
> {    > Graham Nunn
> {    > Denise Dee
> {    > Catherine Daly
> {    >
> {    >
> {    > FICTION
> {    >
> {    > Westerns We???ll Never See: Ryan Robert Mullen
> {    > When That Dead Girl??| : Brentley Frazer
> {    > Tom Mueller Vs. Boy Scout Troop 36: Kevin Kuzma
> {    >
> {    >
> {    > REVIEWS
> {    >
> {    > Please Don???t Kill The Freshman, by Zoe Trope: Matthew Flaming
> {    > Deja Entendu, by Brand New: Karen Crawford
> {    >
> {    >
> {    >
> {    > READ THE NEW ISSUE NOW
> {    >
> {    > And don???t forget about our discussion forum
> {    >
> {    >
> {    >
> {    > That is all.
> {    >
> {    > Your Favorite Publishing Misfits,
> {    > Ink Magazine & Grundle Ink
> {
> {
> {
> {
> {    _______________________________________________
> {    New-Poetry mailing list
> {    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From gmguddi  Mon Sep 29 15:49:18 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:49:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Buff-po Archives
In-Reply-To: <20030928.101829.-446373.28.daisyf1@juno.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030928102651.02248fc0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Y're welcome, Daisy. Yeah,the archives are massive, and ,unless you know 
what you're searching for, it's like walking into library: giddy-making. So 
even the ways devised to help index and order material -- subject heading, 
email address of sender, date -- not to mention the search function -- make 
such a wacko archive still like a battering sea. gabe

At 10:18 AM 9/28/2003 -0400, Daisy Fried wrote:
>Thanks Gabe. Actually, one look at the, like, 500 messages for the month
>of Nov. '98 I'd have to sort through to find the relevant ones, and I
>suddenly realized life is short and logged off...Cheers, Daisy




From halvard  Mon Sep 29 18:07:16 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 18:07:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Muriel Rukeyser, "Poem"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEKPHGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Poem

I lived in the first century of world wars.
Most mornings I would be more or less insane,
The newspapers would arrive with their careless stories,
The news would pour out of various devices
Interrupted by attempts to sell products to the unseen.
I would call my friends on other devices;
They would be more or less mad for similar reasons.
Slowly I would get to pen and paper,
Make my poems for others unseen and unborn.
In the day I would be reminded of those men and women,
Brave, setting up signals across vast distances,
Considering a nameless way of living, of almost unimagined values.
As the lights darkened, as the lights of night brightened,
We would try to imagine them, try to find each other,
To construct peace, to make love, to reconcile
Waking with sleeping, ourselves with each other,
Ourselves with ourselves. We would try by any means
To reach the limits of ourselves, to reach beyond ourselves,
To let go the means, to wake.

I lived in the first century of these wars.


--Muriel Rukeyser, *The Speed of Darkness*
[New York: Vintage Books, 1971]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
 





From elemenope  Mon Sep 29 11:25:42 2003
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:25:42 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir (Robin Hamilton)
In-Reply-To: <200309291928.h8TJS2ST013098@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200309291928.h8TJS2ST013098@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100303bb9df6018b71@[204.215.201.203]>

>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 3
>From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: KorZybski ChAir
>Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:27:00 +0100
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Re: KorZybski ChAirRichard:
>
><<
>CLOSURE
>
>A few words.
>The chair stands back to life.
>Was it ever disassembled?
>Prove it.  I doubt it, sitting on it.
>>>
>
>The chair falls in the pond.
>     The frog rusts.
>         Call me Li-Po
>
>Rihaku
>
>(dreaming he was a flutterbye)
>

>This:
>
>-----------------------------------
>
>In the middle of my journey
>	halfway to hell
>the solemn angels left me
>
>So halfway to hell
>	I stripped my left hand
>of its glove - memory -
>
>And my right hand of its glove
>	- the future -
>walked with hands naked to the wind.


		Robin Hamilton
		_The Bardo of the Rock_
		Robert Temple, Publisher
		London  1982

>------------------------------------

captures how you really do feel about it.  Whatever "it" is.  All I 
can do at this point is to gift again my prescient remedy for a such 
a cold:

>
>KorZybski ChAir
>
>You seem to be somewhat discomfited and not a little not incurious 
>about my Korzybski chair.  I am not a selfish man.  Here, you take 
>it by the arms properly from the back and carry it where it will 
>please you, say, by that window overlooking yon alpine meadow 
>stretching down to the sun-thrilled sea
>whence, I hear, once long ago my people came among your own and not 
>as friends. Are you thirsty?  Here, a thimble shot of what we call 
>"Inthrall."  Be still.


Richard Dillon
ELEMENOPE Productions

In a week or so I will revisit the Korzybski chair.










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From robin.hamilton2  Tue Sep 30 00:07:08 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 05:07:08 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir (Robin Hamilton)
References: <200309291928.h8TJS2ST013098@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100303bb9df6018b71@[204.215.201.203]>
Message-ID: <01ff01c38708$51162600$daba8051@MyPC>

KorZybski ChAir (Robin Hamilton)Richard,

At the point you begin quoting my poems back at me ...

       "In the middle of my journey ..."

... I worry. 

Behave, or I'll sic the Demon Princess onto you.

    Just a word to the wise ...

Robin Roy McGregor Campbell




     





From robin.hamilton2  Tue Sep 30 00:31:06 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 05:31:06 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir (Robin Hamilton)
References: <200309291928.h8TJS2ST013098@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100303bb9df6018b71@[204.215.201.203]>
Message-ID: <020801c3870b$aa3ab4f0$daba8051@MyPC>

KorZybski ChAir (Robin Hamilton)Oh jeezus fucking *wept*, Richard.

Sure, the Notebook stinks of Korzybski.

By the time I hit "The Bardo", I was into Catastrophe Theory.

Why do you insist on holding this against me?

Roswell 

Black technology and stealth bombers 

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From GrahamD  Tue Sep 30 11:30:43 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:30:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A09F@mail.ripon.edu>

Garrison Keillor informs me that today is W. S. Merwin's birthday.  Here's
WSM's take on John Berryman--

Berryman

I will tell you what he told me
in the years just after the war
as we then called
the second world war

don't lose your arrogance yet he said
you can do that when you're older
lose it too soon and you may
merely replace it with vanity

just one time he suggested
changing the usual order
of the same words in a line of verse
why point out a thing twice

he suggested I pray to the Muse
get down on my knees and pray
right there in the corner and he
said he meant it literally

it was in the days before the beard
and the drink but he was deep
in tides of his own through which he sailed
chin sideways and head tilted like a tacking sloop

he was far older than the dates allowed for
much older than I was he was in his thirties
he snapped down his nose with an accent
I think he had affected in England

as for publishing he advised me
to paper my wall with rejection slips
his lips and the bones of his long fingers trembled
with the vehemence of his views about poetry

he said the great presence
that permitted everything and transmuted it
in poetry was passion
passion was genius and he praised movement and invention

I had hardly begun to read
I asked how can you ever be sure
that what you write is really
any good at all and he said you can't

you can't you can never be sure
you die without knowing
whether anything you wrote was any good
if you have to be sure don't write

-- W.S. Merwin.  Flower & Hand (Copper Canyon Press).




============================================
David Graham
Department of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From robin.hamilton2  Tue Sep 30 16:51:56 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:51:56 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] KorZybski ChAir (Robin Hamilton)
References: <200309291928.h8TJS2ST013098@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <a05100303bb9df6018b71@[204.215.201.203]>
Message-ID: <02c301c38794$b0586b00$daba8051@MyPC>

KorZybski ChAir (Robin Hamilton)<<
                Robin Hamilton
                _The Bardo of the Rock_
                Robert Temple, Publisher
                London  1982
>>

In case anyone's interested, both _A [sic] Bardo of the Rock_ and _A
Notebook for the Beautiful and the Damned of this Present Age_ are available
in reprinted editions from the Phantom Rooster Press.

I'm not quite sure about the legality of this, as I simply scanned and
printed them, so they have the original ISBNs, publication details, etc.
But hey, as I wasn't ever paid for either, I think I have the right to
reprint them.

Both texts can be found in _The Lost Jockey_ (Bran's Head, 1983), but
without the illustrations in the original editions.

The hint to the Korzyski link in the Notebook (as Richard will recognise) is
the epigraph:  "The map is not the country -- except in mathematics."  It
should be "territory", I suppose, but I like the alliteration.  And as the
map *isn't* etc ...

Strictly speaking, the only current formally-issued pucka Phantom Rooster
Press title is David Bircumshaw's _Painting Without Numbers_.

Next to come:   Richard Dillon's _Utter Dark Utter Light_.

Soon, I hope, as I've just taken possession of a Dahle 515 guillotine.  Cost
me ?360, and a lot of effort to find anyone selling it on this side of the
Pond.  By the time you get to the 500 range (not to speak of the
industrial-strength 842, which was what I really wanted but didn't have a
grand and a half to spare) it almost looks as if there were an export
embargo on the beasts.  Cutting-edge technology, not to be exported to
unfriendly powers.

Dahle guillotines, I'm reluctantly forced to admit, are something the US
does just *so* much better than anyone else.

<sigh>

End of publicity blurb for PRP

Fantomas

------------------------------------

captures how you really do feel about it.  Whatever "it" is.  All I can do
at this point is to gift again my prescient remedy for a such a cold:

Richard Dillon
ELEMENOPE Productions




















-- 





From ggatza  Thu Sep 25 15:25:11 2003
From: ggatza (Geoffrey Gatza)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:25:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] BUFFALO INDIE LIT LUAU 2003 ... OCTOBER 10-11
Message-ID: <003501c3839a$bf865540$605e3318@white2pimprza3>

BUFFALO INDIE LIT LUAU 2003 ... OCTOBER 10-11 

http://www.medaille.edu/bill/ 

 



BUFFALO INDIE LIT LUAU 2003 is a unique weekend-long celebration of small presses, journals and literary organizations located in Western New York, as well as the United States and Canada. Centered on the campus of Medaille College, events will include poetry and fiction readings, panels, workshops and a book fair. Events will also be held throughout the city of Buffalo at bookshops including Rust Belt Books and Talking Leaves Books, as well as other institutions including Just Buffalo Literary Center and Hallwalls Contemporary Art Center. Events are made possible by grants and support by the Council of Literary Magazines and Presses and the National Endowment for the Arts.

 

BOOK FAIR

Reserving a table at the Buffalo Indie Lit Luau is an excellent way to promote your small press, magazine or literary organization. Participants need not be from Buffalo or Western New York;  indeed, B.I.L.L. participants come from across the country.

The B.I.L.L. Book Fair will take place each day of the conference from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. The Book Fair will take place on the Medaille College campus. There is no fee to reserve a table, but table space is offered on a first-come, first-serve basis. All publishers reserving a Book Fair table will be listed in promotional material, both in print and online, for the 2003 B.I.L.L.
            
Interested in participating in the 2003 B.I.L.L.?  Join the club!



Contact Dr. Ted Pelton, Humanities Department Chairman at Medaille College, or Ethan Paquin, Director of the Creative Writing Program at Medaille College.

 

 

 

BUFFALO INDIE LIT LUAU 2003 ... OCTOBER 10-11 
SCHEDULE OF EVENTS

      FRIDAY, OCTOBER 10
      
      
     
      8 to 9 am
     Sign-In and Registration
     Medaille Main Foyer
     
      9 am to 4 pm
     Magazine and Book Fair
     Medaille Alumni Room/Foyer
     
      9 to 10: 30 am
     Panel I "Self-Publishing"
      Moderator: Ted Pelton
     Medaille TBA
     
      10:30 to 10:45 am
     Coffee Break
     Medaille Main Foyer
     
      10:45 am to 12:15 pm
     Panel II "Undergraduate Literary Magazines"
      Moderator: Terri Borchers
     Medaille TBA
     
      12:15 p.m. - 1:15 p.m.
     Lunch Break
     On or Off Campus
     
      1:15-2:45 p.m.
     Panel III "Bookstores and Distributors" 
      Moderator: Jon Welch
     Medaille TBA
     
      3 to 6 pm
     Small Press Mega Reading
     Medaille Lecture Hall
     
      8 pm to ?
     Tomaz Salamun
      Thom Ward
     Just Buffalo Literary Center
      Tri-Main Center
      2495 Main Street
     
       
      
      
     
      SATURDAY, OCTOBER 11
      
      
     
      9 am to 1 pm
     Magazine and Book Fair
     Medaille Alumni Room/Foyer
     
      9 to 10:30 am
     Panel IV "How to Fundraise 101"
      Moderator: CLMP
     Medaille TBA
     
      10:30 to 10:45 am
     Coffee Break
     Medaille Foyer
     
      10:45 am to 12:15 pm
     Panel V "Women in Small Presses (History)"
      Moderator: Marta Warner
     Medaille TBA
     
      2 to 6 pm
     Reading Crawl
      
     
      2 pm
     Slope/Verse authors: Joshua Beckman, Ethan Paquin, and Matthew Zapruder
     Rust Belt Books
      202 Allen St.
     
      3:30 pm
     Starcherone Press
      Authors
     Talking Leaves Books
      3158 Main St.
     
      5 pm
     TBA
     Just Buffalo Literary Center
      Tri-Main Center
      2495 Main St.
     
      8 pm
     Forrest Gander
     Hallwalls Contemporary Arts Center
      Tri-Main Center
      2495 Main St.
     

 
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From ron.silliman  Mon Sep  1 06:22:39 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 06:22:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog: One year old
Message-ID: <000001c37072$fd7fce20$b772ed41@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

Essential Titles:
Charles Olson & Henri Lefebvre

Do We Know Ella Cheese?
A homophonic translation of Rilke

Homophonic translations:
Not all languages are equal

Noble shipwrecks:
Writing poems that can't possibly work -
Lorine Niedecker's "Thomas Jefferson"

Annie Finch on Emily Dickinson -
The context of women poets in the 19th century

JOE // JOE
& the problem of knowledge in reading -
Robert Grenier, John Cage & Jackson Pollock

Philip K. Dick's Solar Lottery -
Building the paranoid narrative machine
(an anecdote about exploding safes) 

The decay of posthumous literary forms
& the importance of book design

Essential titles:
Kathy Acker & Barrett Watten

Essential titles:
Louis Zukofsky & Robert Grenier

Essential titles:
Jack Spicer, Robert Creeley
& Williams' Spring & All

Essential titles:
Williams' The Desert Music
& the Allen anthology

Dirty Pretty Things

A report on The Philly Sound
from CA Conrad

Reading Keats to Sleep  - 
Gregg Biglieri as the 
Baryshnikov of words

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/







From halvard  Mon Sep  1 08:42:06 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:42:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <008d01c37031$4415e5a0$7f12fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEIGHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
{    what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?
{    
{    Finnegan

I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From CobbCoStudioArts  Mon Sep  1 11:30:22 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:30:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <20030901153023.C397E4802@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From anny.ballardini  Mon Sep  1 12:11:10 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:11:10 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEIGHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <003101c370a3$a8ae9620$c4607550@anny>

I think Hal's is the best one, still I have another idea,

I would invite all the ballet dancers in the world and let them draw in the
air my favorite poems,

a

From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


>
> {    I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
> {    what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?
> {
> {    Finnegan
>
> I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.
>
> Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From JforJames  Mon Sep  1 14:08:50 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:08:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hughes' slab
Message-ID: <1e.1833ab3e.2c84e532@aol.com>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/england/devon/3167729.stm 
Poet's memorial riddle solved 

Five years of secrecy over the location of a memorial to the late Poet 
Laureate Ted Hughes have come to an end. 
BBC Spotlight's environment correspondent Simon Hall has spent two years 
searching for the site on Dartmoor in Devon. 

He was helped by a guide, and used clues in Ted Hughes' will and his work. 

And in one of the most remote parts of Dartmoor, near the source of the River 
Taw, he finally found the simple, granite memorial. 


It's a place with an enormous sense of history which would be very important 
to him 
Liz Sigmund, friend of Ted Hughes 

Ted Hughes lived in Devon for almost 40 years until his death in 1998. 
He loved Dartmoor in particular and his will contained a request for his 
ashes to be scattered there. 

He also requested his name be cut in a long slab of granite, between the 
sources of the rivers Teign, Dart, Taw and East Okement as a memorial. 


His friends say it is a fitting location. 

"He was a very private man, it's a very private place," said Liz Sigmund. 

"People aren't going to be able to just easily jump out of the car and look 
at it. 

"It's a place with an enormous sense of history which would be very important 
to him," she said. 

And a final mystery is how the stone got there. 

Ted Hughes' friends say it involved enlisting the help of Prince Charles, who 
owns the area, and a helicopter airlift. 

The Duchy of Cornwall would say only it did not usually give permission for 
memorials, but as Hughes was a special and dear friend of Prince Charles, a 
rare exception was made. 

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/3167729.stm

Published: 2003/08/20 14:54:31 GMT



From JforJames  Mon Sep  1 14:12:17 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:12:17 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <15b.23e4dde6.2c84e601@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/1/03 8:45:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:

> I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
>  {    what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?
>  {    
>  {    Finnegan
>  
>  I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.
>  
Good one...but could we call that "Po-hibition"?
Finnegan



From halvard  Mon Sep  1 14:22:40 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:22:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <15b.23e4dde6.2c84e601@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEIPHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    >  I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.
{    >  
{    Good one...but could we call that "Po-hibition"?
{    Finnegan

Only if we can call two or more poets living together
po-habitation.

Hal              "The only way to do it is to do it."
                              --Merce Cunningham
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From wjbat  Mon Sep  1 14:35:19 2003
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 14:35:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEIPHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <0A11E7B6-DCAB-11D7-BE7D-000A9573C758@conncoll.edu>

On Monday, September 1, 2003, at 02:22 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote:
> Only if we can call two or more poets living together
> po-habitation.
>

Or polie a deux.

Wendy


Wendy Battin
wjbat at conncoll.edu

  
              




From jvcervantes  Mon Sep  1 14:44:32 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 11:44:32 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEIPHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F539390.14236CE3@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> {    >  I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.
> {    >
> {    Good one...but could we call that "Po-hibition"?
> {    Finnegan
> 
> Only if we can call two or more poets living together
> po-habitation.

Just don't become po-habitual.

- Jim



From chris  Mon Sep  1 15:15:43 2003
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:15:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEIPHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <3F539390.14236CE3@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <027d01c370bd$7407bd60$6401a8c0@disted.uaf.edu>

On Monday, September 01, 2003 10:44 AM [GMT+1=CET],
James Cervantes <jvcervantes at earthlink.net> spake thusly:

> Halvard Johnson wrote:
>> 
>> {    >  I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it
>> illegal. {    >
>> {    Good one...but could we call that "Po-hibition"?
>> {    Finnegan
>> 
>> Only if we can call two or more poets living together
>> po-habitation.

More than two would have to be poelyamory

c




From DICK  Mon Sep  1 15:18:13 2003
From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 03 15:18:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gluck's poetry
Message-ID: <200309011916.h81JGFSV021218@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>

***** Reply to your note of: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:01:02 -0400 *************
David Graham wrote:


>>My gripe with Gluck has to do with the texture of her language, usually.
>>There are exceptions, of course, but too often I find flat statement without
>>much to please my ear, and abstraction without as much dramatic embodiment
>>as I tend to like.  Likewise, her imagery and figure tend toward the minimal
>>end of the spectrum.  For example:
>>

Mock Orange
On the other hand, what I find very interesting is the precision and
originality of her narrative; the "texture of her language" doesn't
obscure what she is saying; she is at the same time clear and economical


     ....these flowers
lighting the yard.

I hate them.
I hate them as I hate sex,
the man's mouth
sealing my mouth, the man's
paralyzing body--

and the cry that always escapes,
the low, humiliating
premise of union--

not "nice," not so abstract, nor minimal, but pretty fine,
I'd say.  And accessible.

Richard



From kpaul  Mon Sep  1 16:11:03 2003
From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:11:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEIGHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEIGHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20030901151054.N7971@kpaul.spinweb.net>

You got my vote, Hal. ;)

-kpaul

On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, Halvard Johnson wrote:

>
> {    I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
> {    what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?
> {
> {    Finnegan
>
> I'd make the writing, distribution, and reading of it illegal.
>
> Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From CobbCoStudioArts  Mon Sep  1 16:16:26 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 13:16:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <20030901201626.5EC42E4C0@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From MIM47  Mon Sep  1 17:45:32 2003
From: MIM47 (MIM47 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:45:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my "big ideas"
Message-ID: <5b.3da39c1d.2c8517fc@aol.com>

When I am Poet Laureate, I will:

1.  Suggest that Congress read a poem at the start of each day's session. 
Senators and Reps could take turns reading in the order in which their respective 
states were admitted to the Union.  (if I wanted to be nasty, I'd require the 
South to do double duty since they left and came back!)

2. Push for all public schools to require memorization and recitation of 
poems for the students, faculty, and administration. 

3.  Have an annual meeting for all state poets laureate, where a lively 
discussion could (and would) ensue on issues related to the writing and reading and 
promotion of poetry as a national treasure.

4.  Develop a scholarship fund for students who wish to study poetry in 
college or graduate school.

5. Travel to each of the 50 states for a reading in that state's capitol.



From halvard  Mon Sep  1 18:04:27 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:04:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my "big ideas"
In-Reply-To: <5b.3da39c1d.2c8517fc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEJHHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    1.  Suggest that Congress read a poem at the start of each day's session. 
{    Senators and Reps could take turns reading in the order in which their respective 
{    states were admitted to the Union.  (if I wanted to be nasty, I'd require the 
{    South to do double duty since they left and came back!)

Well, they *tried* to leave. That was a big chunk of what
the War Between the States was all about. 

Hal         "There is no instance of a country having
                benefited from prolonged war."
                              --Sun-tzu, "The Art of War"
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From jvcervantes  Mon Sep  1 18:13:54 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:13:54 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: my "big ideas"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEJHHDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F53C4A1.E4727900@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> {    1.  Suggest that Congress read a poem at the start of each day's session.
> {    Senators and Reps could take turns reading in the order in which their respective
> {    states were admitted to the Union.  (if I wanted to be nasty, I'd require the
> {    South to do double duty since they left and came back!)
> 
> Well, they *tried* to leave. That was a big chunk of what
> the War Between the States was all about.

That'll be two readings for Texas.  One in Texas, and the other in New Mexico.

- Jim, cheering for the renegades



From jvcervantes  Mon Sep  1 18:22:51 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:22:51 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <f3.2f516c92.2c83efe0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F53C6BA.6BFC73A1@earthlink.net>

If you think of poets as planets, you might be able to use the list as a
kind of astrological field in which to chart your personal forecast.  I
fell in thusly:

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
>
> Joseph Auslander, 1937-1941

born in 1941

> (Auslander's appointment to the Poetry chair had no fixed term)
> Allen Tate, 1943-1944
> Robert Penn Warren, 1944-1945
> Louise Bogan, 1945-1946
> Karl Shapiro, 1946-1947
> Robert Lowell, 1947-1948
> Leonie Adams, 1948-1949
> Elizabeth Bishop, 1949-1950
> Conrad Aiken, 1950-1952
> (First to serve two terms)
> William Carlos Williams
> (Appointed in 1952 but did not serve)
> Randall Jarrell, 1956-1958
> Robert Frost, 1958-1959
> Richard Eberhart, 1959-1961
> Louis Untermeyer, 1961-1963

discovered poetry

> Howard Nemerov, 1963-1964
> Reed Whittemore, 1964-1965
> Stephen Spender, 1965-1966
> James Dickey, 1966-1968
> William Jay Smith, 1968-1970

first poems published in 1969

> William Stafford, 1970-1971

entered University of Washington writing program (no MFA then)

> Josephine Jacobsen, 1971-1973
> Daniel Hoffman, 1973-1974

graduated from Iowa

> Stanley Kunitz, 1974-1976
> Robert Hayden, 1976-1978
> William Meredith, 1978-1980

first book published

> Maxine Kumin,1981-1982

second book published

> Anthony Hecht, 1982-1984
> Robert Fitzgerald, 1984-1985
> (Appointed and served in a health-limited capacity, but did not come to the
> Library of Congress)
> Reed Whittemore, 1984-1985
> (Interim Consultant in Poetry)
> Gwendolyn Brooks, 1985-1986
> Robert Penn Warren, 1986-1987
> (First to be designated Poet Laureate Consultant in Poetry)
> Richard Wilbur, 1987-1988
> Howard Nemerov, 1988-1990
> Mark Strand, 1990-1991
> Joseph Brodsky, 1991-1992
> Mona Van Duyn, 1992-1993
> Rita Dove, 1993-1995
> Robert Hass, 1995-1997
> Robert Pinsky, 1997-2000
> (First to serve three consecutive terms)
> Special Bicentennial Consultants, 1999-2000: Rita Dove, Louise Gl?ck, and
> W.S. Merwin)
> Stanley Kunitz, 2000-2001
> Billy Collins, 2001-2002

floundering

- Jim




From jvcervantes  Mon Sep  1 18:27:45 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 15:27:45 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <f3.2f516c92.2c83efe0@aol.com> <3F53C6BA.6BFC73A1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F53C7E0.79E04F5@earthlink.net>

Correction:

> > Howard Nemerov, 1988-1990

second book published

> > Mark Strand, 1990-1991

Not a decade earlier.

- Jim



From bobgrumman  Mon Sep  1 22:05:01 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:05:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <f3.2f516c92.2c83efe0@aol.com> <3F53C6BA.6BFC73A1@earthlink.net> <3F53C7E0.79E04F5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004701c370f6$9ea3b360$7e28fea9@j1c1k6>

The most interesting thing about the list to me is that you could reverse
it, and graph the poets on the basis of technical adventurousness and
general aims, and the graph of the original list and the graph of the
reversed list would be near identical.  In fact, the only significant
difference would be that the reversed graph would indicate more of a
movement toward "experimental poetry" since Wm C Wms would be further along
on it.

In spite of my rudely exaggerated small polemic, I do find most of the
laureates to be superior poets.  But except for Williams, which of them ever
took any technical risks?  Lowell, perhaps, to a very slight degree.

Can't leave this till I mention one more thing I'd like a poet laureate to
do: give a speech on this truth: that serious poetry is no more for the man
in the street than serious pure mathematics is, or serious music or
painting.  Like all those things, though, it is worth supporting because of
its influence on lesser simulcra of it, and because it will eventually
affect its expressive language for the better, which will benefit the man in
the street.

--Bob G.





From JforJames  Mon Sep  1 22:21:55 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:21:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pessoa and me
Message-ID: <7a.46d82d25.2c8558c3@aol.com>

This summer I picked up _Always Astonished_, the selected
prose of Fernando Pessoa, translated by Edwin Honig. A collection
of mostly short entries on this & that subject related to poetry,
art, & Pessoa's personal (if not all of the various & sundry
Pessoas') philosophy.

A few choice passages...

"I was a poet animated by philosophy, not a philosopher
with poetic faculties. I loved to admire the beauty of things,
to trace the imperceptible through the minute the poetic
soul of the universe." [Autobiographic Notes, 1. The earliest
literary food]

"Art, fully defined, is the harmonic expression of our 
consciousness of sensations, that is to say, our sensations
must be so expressed that they create an object which
will be a sensation to others. Art is not, as Bacon said,
'man added to Nature'; it is sensation multiplied by
consciousness--multiplied, be it well noted." [On Sensationism,
2. Letter to an English Editor]

"Lucidity should only reach the threshold of the soul. In the
very antechambers of feeling it is forbidden to be explicit"
-&-
"Substitute yourself always. You are not enough for yourself.
Be unpredictable always for yourself. Let yourself happen
before yourself. Let your sensations be purely accidental, 
adventures that happen to you. You must be a universe
without laws in order to be superior." [On Sensationism,
5 To feel is to create]

"A great emotion is too selfish. It takes into itself all the
blood of the spirit, and the congestion leaves the hands too
cold to write. Three sorts of emotions produce great poetry--
strong but quick emotions, seized upon for art as soon as
they have passed, but not before they have passed; strong
and deep emotions in their remembrance a long time after;
and false emotions, that is to say, emotions felt in the 
intellect. Not insincerity, yet a translated sincerity, is the
basis of all art." [Literature and the Artist, 8. The Artist
and Emotion]

"I am always astonished when I finish anything. Astonished
and depressed. My instinct for perfection should inhibit me
until I get started. But I distract myself and do it. What I
achieve is a product in me, not by applying my will but by
giving into it. I begin because I'm not motivated to think; I
conclude because I haven't the nerve to leave off. The book
is my act of cowardice." [Always Astonished: A Journal,
21. Always astonished]

---
if you want more than samples, call
City Lights Books, 800-274-7826

Finnegan



From marcus  Tue Sep  2 09:52:22 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 09:52:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <007b01c37029$d80c9860$6d94c044@MULDER>
Message-ID: <3F546856.28093.8D689F@localhost>

> > I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
> > what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?

Well the trouble with poetry to the American who isn't in its thrall 
is that it all looks non-mainstream; it all looks like a parody of 
free verse:

I am a barn door
creaking ...
creaking.

and the sort of thing that that parodies is impenetrable for most 
people. The very notion that poetry is not verse is alien to most 
people, and they discount what Grumman would call "mainstream" as 
"not poetry at all in the first place". Free verse poets seem to be 
completely opaque to the hostility with which they are viewed by the 
general public; to the conviction by the general public that free 
verse is a fraud and free versists are con-artists.

If you're a free verse writer and you want a wider audience your 
first task as Poet Laureate must be to find a way to persuade the 
general public that you are a poet in the first place and that what 
you write is poetry -- because they just flat don't believe it.

So, if you get to be Poet Laureate and you really want to reach a 
larger audience you first have to address the "Jackson Pollack 
Syndrome", the "my third grader can do that syndrome", the "you're a 
fraud syndrome".

How would you do that?





Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From chris  Tue Sep  2 11:15:59 2003
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 07:15:59 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <3F546856.28093.8D689F@localhost>
Message-ID: <05a201c37165$21565f10$6401a8c0@disted.uaf.edu>

On Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:52 AM [GMT+1=CET],
Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> spake thusly:

> How would you do that?

This is a rather disingenuous question if it comes from one who doesn't
believe it can be done and just wants to further argue that point. Is that
what's going on here?

c




From GrahamD  Tue Sep  2 11:16:48 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:16:48 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A02E@mail.ripon.edu>

So the millions of book buyers who purchase Maya Angelou's free verse (for
one example) do so out of hostility to free verse?  Interesting premise.

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Marcus Bales
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 2, 2003 8:52 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
> 
> > > I pose this question to the list: If you were named Poet Laureate,
> > > what would be your "big idea" for promoting poetry in the land?
> 
> Well the trouble with poetry to the American who isn't in its thrall 
> is that it all looks non-mainstream; it all looks like a parody of 
> free verse:
> 
> I am a barn door
> creaking ...
> creaking.
> 
> and the sort of thing that that parodies is impenetrable for most 
> people. The very notion that poetry is not verse is alien to most 
> people, and they discount what Grumman would call "mainstream" as 
> "not poetry at all in the first place". Free verse poets seem to be 
> completely opaque to the hostility with which they are viewed by the 
> general public; to the conviction by the general public that free 
> verse is a fraud and free versists are con-artists.
> 
> If you're a free verse writer and you want a wider audience your 
> first task as Poet Laureate must be to find a way to persuade the 
> general public that you are a poet in the first place and that what 
> you write is poetry -- because they just flat don't believe it.
> 
> So, if you get to be Poet Laureate and you really want to reach a 
> larger audience you first have to address the "Jackson Pollack 
> Syndrome", the "my third grader can do that syndrome", the "you're a 
> fraud syndrome".
> 
> How would you do that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 



From marcus  Tue Sep  2 11:20:32 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:20:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <05a201c37165$21565f10$6401a8c0@disted.uaf.edu>
Message-ID: <3F547D00.8360.DE2074@localhost>

> On Tuesday, September 02, 2003 5:52 AM [GMT+1=CET],
> Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> spake thusly:
> > How would you do that?

On 2 Sep 2003 at 7:15, Chris Lott wrote:
> This is a rather disingenuous question if it comes from one who doesn't
> believe it can be done and just wants to further argue that point. Is that
> what's going on here?

Not in the least; I'm trying to describe the problem that free verse 
poets have with reaching a larger audience. The question is how can 
you overcome the hostility of the larger audience to the very 
assertion that what you do is poetry as you seek a larger audience? 
It's not a matter of convincing ME -- it's a matter of convincing 
THEM.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From marcus  Tue Sep  2 11:21:31 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:21:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A02E@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F547D3B.29847.DF0961@localhost>

On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:16, Graham, David wrote:
> So the millions of book buyers who purchase Maya Angelou's free verse (for
> one example) do so out of hostility to free verse?  Interesting premise.

Maya Angelou's verse is well-marketed by Hallmark. Is that your idea 
a Poet Laureat's "big idea" -- get more poets marketed by Hallmark?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From GrahamD  Tue Sep  2 11:39:04 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:39:04 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A030@mail.ripon.edu>

Nice try, Marcus.  The question of quality is entirely a different argument,
as you well know.  I was questioning your absurd premise that most people
are hostile to free verse.  Simply untrue, so it's not surprising that you
respond with this particular red herring.

 ============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Marcus Bales
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 2, 2003 10:21 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
> 
> On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:16, Graham, David wrote:
> > So the millions of book buyers who purchase Maya Angelou's free verse
> (for
> > one example) do so out of hostility to free verse?  Interesting premise.
> 
> Maya Angelou's verse is well-marketed by Hallmark. Is that your idea 
> a Poet Laureat's "big idea" -- get more poets marketed by Hallmark?
> 
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 



From GrahamD  Tue Sep  2 11:40:40 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:40:40 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Student sentence du jour
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A031@mail.ripon.edu>

"I love books, but I hate reading them."

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From mandolin  Tue Sep  2 11:42:02 2003
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 11:42:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <5049967.1062517322880.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, September 02, 2003, at 11:21AM, Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:

>On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:16, Graham, David wrote:
>> So the millions of book buyers who purchase Maya Angelou's free verse (for
>> one example) do so out of hostility to free verse?  Interesting premise.
>
>Maya Angelou's verse is well-marketed by Hallmark. Is that your idea 
>a Poet Laureat's "big idea" -- get more poets marketed by Hallmark?
>
>
Hallmark's doggerel probably did as much as anything else to convince "serious" poets that metrical, rhymed verse was not real poetry. Now that almost everything on their cards is free verse, maybe things will swing the other way. I'm only half kidding.

Michael



From GrahamD  Tue Sep  2 11:55:40 2003
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:55:40 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A032@mail.ripon.edu>

Maya Angelou's not much of a poet, it's true.  (Nor is she as dreadful as
Leonard Nimoy.)  But in case anyone is interested in reality here, her
recent Hallmark work is quite distinct from books like *Phenomenal Woman*.  

For that portion of the reading public that reads poetry, free verse has
been the dominant mode for a very long time.  Whether that's good or bad or
indifferent is a whole 'nother argument.

Angelou's amazing sales are one easy example of popular taste, is all.  If
the book-buying multitudes truly were yearning for more metered verse,
Angelou and McKuen et al. would probably be churning it out.

Within the small pond of literary poetry, the "new formalists" have been a
most welcome development, I think, but they're hardly the whole show, and
there are lots of reasons for that.  

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Michael Snider
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 2, 2003 10:42 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
> 
>  
> On Tuesday, September 02, 2003, at 11:21AM, Marcus Bales
> <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> 
> >On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:16, Graham, David wrote:
> >> So the millions of book buyers who purchase Maya Angelou's free verse
> (for
> >> one example) do so out of hostility to free verse?  Interesting
> premise.
> >
> >Maya Angelou's verse is well-marketed by Hallmark. Is that your idea 
> >a Poet Laureat's "big idea" -- get more poets marketed by Hallmark?
> >
> >
> Hallmark's doggerel probably did as much as anything else to convince
> "serious" poets that metrical, rhymed verse was not real poetry. Now that
> almost everything on their cards is free verse, maybe things will swing
> the other way. I'm only half kidding.
> 
> Michael
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From JforJames  Tue Sep  2 14:09:01 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:09:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <112.280259c6.2c8636bd@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/2/03 11:26:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:

> So the millions of book buyers who purchase Maya Angelou's free verse (for
>  > one example) do so out of hostility to free verse?  Interesting premise.
>  
>  Maya Angelou's verse is well-marketed by Hallmark. Is that your idea 
>  a Poet Laureat's "big idea" -- get more poets marketed by Hallmark?
>  
Maya Angelou put up solid sales numbers before her association
with Hallmark. But another example would be Billy Collins
Collins is certainly a best seller by poetry's standards.
I don't believe there is widespread antipathy toward free verse.

Certainly a formal poet whose work was dense and difficult 
would not easily win reading converts. 
Finnegan



From JforJames  Tue Sep  2 14:10:43 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:10:43 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Louise=20Gl=FCcks=20latest=20book,=20October.?=
Message-ID: <1e7.f48885c.2c863723@aol.com>

Date:   9/2/03 12:26:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time

Sarabande Books is proud to announce the April 1, 2004 publication of Louise 
Gl?cks latest book, October. Ms. Gl?ck was recently named as the countrys next 
Poet Laureate, succeeding Billy Collins. The chapbook contains a single long 
poem and presents the third installment of Sarabandes increasingly prestigious 
Quarternote Chapbook Series. A first printing of 5000 copies is planned. The 
poem originally appeared in The New Yorker.

Mark Strand said this of October: Identifying with the season of autumn, the 
dark of it, the barren, irreversible future of it, and the beauty of it, which 
is not seen as redemptive, the voice of Louise Gl?ck is starker, more direct, 
more emotionally charged than it has ever been. October is a masterpiece. 
Other books in the series include James Tates Lost River, and Frank Bidarts Music 
Like Dirt, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize.

Louise Gl?ck was born in New York City and raised on Long Island. She is the 
author of nine books of poetry, including The Triumph of Achilles, which won 
the National Book Critics Circle Award, Ararat, which won the Bobbitt National 
Poetry Prize, The Wild Iris, which received the Pulitzer Prize, and Vita Nova, 
which won the first annual New Yorker Magazines Readers Award and the 
Ambassadors Award. Her many honors include the William Carlos Williams Award, a 
Lannan Literary Award, and, for her book of essays, the PEN/Martha Albrand Award 
for Nonfiction. In 2001, she received the Bollingen Prize for Poetry.Louise 
Gl?ck teaches at Williams College and lives in Cambridge.




From ggatza  Tue Sep  2 14:13:50 2003
From: ggatza (Geoffrey Gatza)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:13:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] now available HouseCat Kung Fu
Message-ID: <002501c3717d$f5b6bb70$605e3318@LINKAGE>

SPECIAL INVITAION 

 

HouseCat Kung Fu : Zoo Poems is now available from Cafe Press 

 

Book : 52 pages $10.00



Audio CD : spoken word set ambient trip hop $14.99 

 

Proceeds donated to the Buffalo Zoo 

 

Order your copy today CafePress www.cafepress.com/housecatkungfu 

 

detailed interactive online version \\  www.blazevox.org/zoo 

 

 

 

Official Bio:

 

Geoffrey Gatza is editor and publisher of the online poetry journal BlazeVOX2k3. He is a recent graduate of Daemen College with a degree in accounting and literature. Favorite color is orange, likes chocolate ice cream and is a graduate of the Culinary Institute of America and worked as a chef for 10 years. The former U.S. Marine now collaborates with 2 cats in Buffalo, NY.  

 

Recent art work appears in Fiera Lingue (Italy), Side Reality, Conundrum, 88, Slope, and Exquisite Corpse. His work seeks to unify the ideals and disappointments of Avant Pop. He is the author of Avatar, an epic poem of Superman through the 20th century; Secret Origins (Charles LaSalle Publishing, 2003) John 9:25 (CD-ROM) His digital art has been displayed internationally and was selected as one of the top 50 artists in the electronic literature organization's State of the Art 2002 exhibit. 

 

 

 

Unofficial Bio: 

 

A prodigy who obtained his Literature degree while still in his teens, Geoffrey Gatza was a gifted poet, whose inability to work within the system led him outside of established literary circles. As the "Midnight Poet," Gatza used his great wealth, talent and formidable network of contacts to provide Avant Garde poetry for a wide range of readers for whom orthodox poetry had failed.

 

While investigating the influx of a new and dangerous bio-mimetic languages, Gatza was infected with a mutagenic virus which interacted randomly with other chemicals in his bloodstream. As a result Gatza lost his vision except while using special goggles of his own creation.

 

It has been speculated the energy Gatza received from his father was the catalyst for this insanity but this is not entirely true. Something else has been infecting his mind ... something very powerful. Gatza has dedicated himself to protecting the downtrodden of his city from a continuing series of deadly schemes by the insidious Iowa writers.

 

 

BlazeVOX2k3: an online journal of voice www.blazevox.org    

Author Site: www.blazevox.org/gatza 

email : ggatza at daemen.edu
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From chris  Tue Sep  2 15:25:12 2003
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:25:12 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
References: <3F547D00.8360.DE2074@localhost>
Message-ID: <005901c37187$eef56890$5743e589@TECH>

On Tuesday, September 02, 2003 7:20 AM, Marcus Bales
<marcus at designerglass.com> spake thusly:

> Not in the least; I'm trying to describe the problem that free verse
> poets have with reaching a larger audience. The question is how can
> you overcome the hostility of the larger audience to the very
> assertion that what you do is poetry as you seek a larger audience?
> It's not a matter of convincing ME -- it's a matter of convincing
> THEM.

That's good to know. But your arguments have always struck me as an
indication that you see yourself as one of THEM in this matter.

c




From mandolin  Tue Sep  2 15:43:38 2003
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:43:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
Message-ID: <3324925.1062531818066.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, September 02, 2003, at 11:55AM, Graham, David <GrahamD at ripon.edu> wrote:

>Maya Angelou's not much of a poet, it's true.  (Nor is she as dreadful as
>Leonard Nimoy.)  But in case anyone is interested in reality here, her
>recent Hallmark work is quite distinct from books like *Phenomenal Woman*.  
>
>For that portion of the reading public that reads poetry, free verse has
>been the dominant mode for a very long time.  Whether that's good or bad or
>indifferent is a whole 'nother argument.
>
>Angelou's amazing sales are one easy example of popular taste, is all.  If
>the book-buying multitudes truly were yearning for more metered verse,
>Angelou and McKuen et al. would probably be churning it out.
>
>Within the small pond of literary poetry, the "new formalists" have been a
>most welcome development, I think, but they're hardly the whole show, and
>there are lots of reasons for that.  
>

David, you're certainly right that the new formalists aren't the whole show, but, more importantly, you're right about the small pond.  Free verse does dominate sales among the new poetry buying public, but there are a lot of people who love poems but who don't buy new poetry. For my sins I taught Freshman Comp and Creative Writing for seven years, but I've also spent years as a toolmaker, framing carpenter, roofer, software engineer, landscaper (I dug holes), and dishwasher--well, only six months at that last job. The people I meet in those contexts are far more likely than my poetry students to have memorized poems and to carry them in their purses and wallets, and the poetry they read is almost always metrical, rhymed verse.

Michael



From marcus  Tue Sep  2 16:58:31 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 16:58:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A030@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F54CC37.29597.2139E30@localhost>

On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:39, Graham, David wrote:
> Nice try, Marcus.  The question of quality is entirely a different argument,
> as you well know.  I was questioning your absurd premise that most people
> are hostile to free verse.  Simply untrue, so it's not surprising that you
> respond with this particular red herring.<<

No, David, he said, patiently, my initial comment was that most 
people are hostile to free verse and my subsequent comments repeated 
that. Your notion that Maya Angelou's Hallmark sales are evidence 
that most people are not hostile to free verse is the red herring, 
sir. Maya Angelou is as irrelevant to the poetry scene as Rod McKuen -
- their sales are simply not indicative that the general public is 
enthusiastic about free verse.

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From marcus  Tue Sep  2 17:01:25 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:01:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Phenomenal Sales
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A032@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F54CCE5.11274.2164600@localhost>

On 2 Sep 2003 at 10:55, Graham, David wrote:
> Maya Angelou's not much of a poet, it's true....
> Within the small pond of literary poetry, the "new formalists" have been a
> most welcome development ...

Hoist by your own petard, David: you admit that the literary poetry 
pond is small and that Angelou is not much of a poet. That pretty 
much sums up my argument that most people in the US think free verse 
is not poetry at all and destroys your argument that Angelou's sales 
are evidence that most people in the US think free verse is poetry 
after all.  

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From tadrichards  Tue Sep  2 17:19:09 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 17:19:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Student sentence du jour
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990547A031@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <006701c37197$db2b6340$6501a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Reminds me of an old favorite:

"Sure I have ideals, but I don't let them interfere with my daily life."

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
To: "'New-Poetry'" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 11:40 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Student sentence du jour


> "I love books, but I hate reading them."
> 
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>      Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>      My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From marcus  Tue Sep  2 17:13:26 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:13:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <112.280259c6.2c8636bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F54CFB6.32381.2214732@localhost>

> Maya Angelou put up solid sales numbers before her association
> with Hallmark. But another example would be Billy Collins
> Collins is certainly a best seller by poetry's standards.
> I don't believe there is widespread antipathy toward free verse.

You really have to get out more and talk to people who are not 
involved in the poetry biz. 

When I say "the general public" I don't mean the couple thousand 
people around the country who write poems; I mean the general public, 
the tens of millions of adults who can read.

So, I assert, tens of millions of adults in the US feel a deep and 
abiding dislike of free verse, and will gladly tell you that they 
don't think it's really poetry at all: it's just greeting-card stuff 
at one end and incomprehensible jabber at the other, and most of the 
stuff in between may be more or less comprehensible but isn't worth 
the time or trouble to read.

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From marcus  Tue Sep  2 17:21:47 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:21:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet Laureate
In-Reply-To: <005901c37187$eef56890$5743e589@TECH>
Message-ID: <3F54D1AB.32259.228EA7B@localhost>

> > Not in the least; I'm trying to describe the problem that free verse
> > poets have with reaching a larger audience. The question is how can
> > you overcome the hostility of the larger audience to the very
> > assertion that what you do is poetry as you seek a larger audience?
> > It's not a matter of convincing ME -- it's a matter of convincing
> > THEM.
 
> That's good to know. But your arguments have always struck me as an
> indication that you see yourself as one of THEM in this matter.

I am one of THEM in this matter; but I'm only one of millions of THEM 
and convincing me isn't going to do you an