From marcus at designerglass.com Thu May 1 07:45:12 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 07:45:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030430114408.011b6e10@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <165.1f1edd1f.2be15527@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EB0D088.7972.141AEA@localhost> Gudding: > And Crisman, I very much agree with you regarding not firebombing anyone > personally and verbally.<< You, who call other members of poetry lists "goatfuckers"? Pfui. You're beyond disingenuous here, even beyond "damned lies" and well into "statistics". And Crisman, while the discussion between Bob Grumman and me about his categorization of poetry was long and we disagreed, we did not "firebomb" each other. You may have found the discussion uninteresting, but to allege it was an example of the kind of incivility that is habitual from Prof Gudding and from Elemenope is simply wrong. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu May 1 09:10:31 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 06:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: <20030501131031.9C81F3E80@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:16:25 EDT Size: 3547 URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Thu May 1 10:44:03 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 10:44:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Joseph Brodsky, "Odysseus to Telemachus" Message-ID: Odysseus to Telemachus My Telemachus, The Trojan War is done. Who won . . . is anybody's guess. Presumable the Greeks did; only Greeks could hurl so many corpses out of houses . . . And anyway, the homeward-headed road's turned out to be too long, as if Poseidon, while we were wasting time there, stretched the space. I don't know where I am, what lies ahead. Some filthy island, bushes, buildings, stones, great grunting pigs, a garden overgrown, some sort of queen, and grass . . . Telemachus, all islands look alike to one who's traveled so long; and the brain trips us, counting waves; eyes, polluted with horizon, blear; and liquefying flesh clogs up the ears. I don't remember how the war turned out . . . I don't remember how old you are. Grow, Telemachus, my son, grow big. Only the gods know if we'll meet again. It's years already since you were that infant I reined the oxen in to save. If not for Palamedes, we'd have lived together. But maybe he was right: apart from me you will be saved from Oedipal desires, and, my Telemachus, have sinless dreams. --Joseph Brodsky, tr. Harry Thomas in *Partisan Review* (Vol. LVIII, No. 4, 1991) Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Thom424 at aol.com Thu May 1 11:02:01 2003 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:02:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Rolf Jacobsen Message-ID: May at the Window Now May is at the window, in high-rises when the pipes have stopped rumbling, in hospitals when they drive the dead away, in prisons all day and night, May is at the window with its white face dripping blood on every forehead and laying its iron hand around your heart ?spring on earth. Rolf Jacobsen, trans. Robert Hedin From: THE ROADS HAVE COME TO AND END NOW: SELECTED AND LAST POEMS OF ROLF JACOBSEN. Trans. by Robert Bly, Roger Greenwald, and Robert Hedin. Copper Canyon Press, 2001. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu May 1 11:12:32 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:12:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: <159.1edffdcb.2be29360@cs.com> In a message dated 5/1/2003 8:12:28 AM Central Standard Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: > > Sam, > > Maybe after the screen writers' rewrites the script may be > "Poetic prose?" > > Bob > > Poetry Catamaran It's like that famous title from the first version of The Taming of the Shrew (Pickford and Fairbanks). "By William Shakespeare, with additional dialogue by Sam Taylor." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu May 1 11:58:02 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 08:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: <20030501155802.099C848B5@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 11:12:32 EDT Size: 3626 URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu May 1 12:40:48 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:40:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: <19d.14471e0d.2be2a810@cs.com> In a message dated 5/1/2003 10:59:51 AM Central Standard Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: > Sam, > > Whatever happened to Sam Taylor afterwards? > > Bob > > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known > mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com An interesting question In fact, there's quite a bit of debate about whether Sam Taylor (a.k.a. Moe Katz) actually wrote that extra dialogue--he was a journeyman screenwriter with only a high-school education, and he couldn't have possibly understood the subtleties of Shakespeare's verse. His only other published poetry is a sequence of sonnets dedicated to a mysterious "Mr. H. H." with whom he seems to have had some kind of homerotic relationship, which was complicated by a triangular affair with a "dark laddie" referred to only as "Miss J. R." Speculation runs that H. H. may have ghosted Sam Taylor's screenplays. Because H. H. seems to have been a Californian, the best guess as to his identity is Herbert Hoover, who invented the Electrolux and went on to become a famous dam. My personal candidate is Howard Hughes, who went on to become a famous recluse and tool company. "J. R." would, of course, be Jane Russell (a.k.a. Jerome Burnside), though some have suspected Jackie Robinson to have been involved. Sam himself remains mum on the matter; he's now 97 years old and works at a Starbucks on Wilshire Blvd. When he goes, we shall not see his see his like again. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Thu May 1 12:45:32 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 08:45:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark Smirk-heart of Brat-sedition References: <000d01c30f79$85089ee0$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> Message-ID: <007501c31001$18cbb180$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Wednesday, April 30, 2003 4:34 PM, Robin Hamilton spake thusly: > From: "Halvard Johnson" > >> { I've been looking back at all the posts I have from ELMENOPE >> >> You've always been my hero, Chris, and now you >> always will be. > > He has a name, incidentally, or has no one noticed this? > > Or are we into non-personing time, shades of Stalin? > It's much simpler than that-- he doesn't attach his name to most of his posts, so I had no name to reference other than his "from" line in his email. I have no idea who he is in "real life" nor do his wonderful qualities therein have any real import when it comes to my question. c -- Chris Lott From hruggier at localnet.com Thu May 1 13:22:00 2003 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 13:22:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy References: Message-ID: <3EB157B7.22F0F26D@localnet.com> Confessin' that I've only read in about thirty pages of Finnegan's Wake - but I've tried it more than once. So 60 pages. H. Ruggieri David Graham wrote: > OK, everyone, I went and fessed up: now it's your turn. I'm feeling rather > lonely out here in my vacancy. > > So: What canonical works did YOU never finish reading? Bookmark stranded > halfway through *Paradise Lost*? Did Book IV of *The Faeirie Queene* drive > you to snoozeland? Eliot's *Four Quartets* halted at a Trio? > > Extra points, naturally, for anything Shakespearean. No points for naming > Pound's *Cantos*. > > Come on, come on! > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > From: "Alan C Golding" > > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:47:42 -0400 > > To: > > Subject: [New-Poetry] David Graham's vacancy > > > > If you've never had the full *Titus* experience, David, there you > > go--that's the hole at the center of your life. You've never witnessed > > the entrance of "a servant with two heads and a hand," or seen someone > > "exit, pursued by a bear." > > > > Alan G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Thu May 1 13:14:32 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:14:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Terms and Conditions of Use Message-ID: Terms and Conditions of Use The Cabal of Amnesiac Eristics (the "Cabal") makes available online information and opinion on this listserv. Certain portions of the site allow you to access and post messages to online discussion threads. By initiating or using any such discussion threads, you agree to be bound by the following terms and conditions in your use of them. The Cabal reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to edit, delete, or refuse to post any message for any reason whatsoever and, from time to time, for no reason whatso- ever. You, for your part, agree to use any discussion thread only to send and receive messages that are calculated to whip at least two or three others members of the Cabal into a lather and/or frenzy appropriate to that particular discussion. You further agree, through your use of this service, that you will use the discussion threads to post only such material as is defamatory, libelous, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, and/or otherwise violative of some law--past, present or future. The Cabal has the right, but not the obligation, to monitor and/or ignore any activity and content associated with the various discussion threads. Any message it finds insufficiently inflammatory may be removed. Any thread that doesn't attract enough inappropriate re- sponses may be deleted as well. The Cabal of Amnesiac Eristics is not responsible for any inappropriate posting that appears in these discussion threads. We do not vouch for or war- rant the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the so-called author of the so-called message, but not necessarily the views of The Cabal of Amnesiac Eristics, which disavows anything and everything. Any user who feels that a posted message is unobjection- able is encouraged to complain to us by writing to webmaster at amnesiaceristics.org. We reserve the right to encourage some posts of an abusive and disruptive nature and dis- courage others, and/or to issue warnings, suspend or terminate the registration of users who refuse to comply with these terms of use. These rules may be modified, with or without notice, by the Cabal from time to time and such modifications will be effective and binding on you whether or not posted on the listserv or at the Cabal's undisclosed website. If you can't stand Byzantine intrigue, get out of the Cabal. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu May 1 13:22:52 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:22:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Terms and Conditions of Use Message-ID: In a message dated 5/1/2003 12:17:14 PM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > If you can't > stand Byzantine intrigue, get out of the Cabal. > How can I join? Does it cost anything? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Thu May 1 14:27:09 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:27:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Magee's _MS_ now available! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1051813629.3eb166fd19d81@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Hi all, big apologies for cross-posting but I wanted to get the word out that my new book of poems _MS_ (Spuyten Duyvil) is now available at www.barnesandnoble.com or through your local bookstore (it's up at amazon.com too but they don't seem ready to ship yet). It's 92 pages and positively divine! And inexpensive! And, and... If you want to buy it as fast as humanly possible, go here: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2UP4P4CPR8&i sbn=1881471209&itm=1 Below are the words from the back cover. Hope you like! -m. ****************************** Stuttering turns into syncopation in this edgily engaging collocation of accents, attitudes, occasions. The poems in MS are provocative, certainly without idealization, the dollars-and-cents context of our grainy American dream. Mike Magee's detailed optical-ocular orbiting effects ?? "other-wise / waning or adroitly loitering" ?? make reading this collection a constant surprise. ??Susan Howe Does the poet diagnose a medical condition or continue a feminist tradition? Is it a motor ship or a manuscript? A degree of science or a software appliance? Recklessly eyeballing Mike Magee's "grainy American dream," my optic nerves jangle to the tune of jump-cut language, slurred and blurred words flashed on the screen of memory with a quick trigger finger on the universal remote. Magee's MS interrupts our programming with his alternative vision. ??Harryette Mullen The discursively promiscuous clauses of these poems?cut generously with a slide-wit on the national symbols blared, dice up much of the lingering prosaic transparency of American Poetry (Inc.). Here?s no monologic gnosis gnashing of "repressed subject" possibilities, while at the same time no fashionable duncing of the socially determinative either. This rhetor?s got the apps (and multiplexed ?mouth?) to get you to the next level?Your Turn. --Rodrigo Toscano Michael Magee's MS is new music . . . a carnivalesque palimpsest of vision and ventriloquy, supple rhythm informed by Hiphop era ironies and an erudite grasp of postmodern poetics. This marvelous Century 21 ethnic American remix of personal history and society's mystery is both demanding and delightful. You need this book! Mr. Magee creates poems that tickle the ear and open a new window in the mind's eye. Read aloud. Think fast. --Lorenzo Thomas From halvard at earthlink.net Thu May 1 14:45:43 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:45:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Terms and Conditions of Use In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You're in until you're told otherwise, and you may not be out even then. Yes, it costs everything. the Cabalmeister If you can't stand Byzantine intrigue, get out of the Cabal. How can I join? Does it cost anything? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu May 1 15:15:22 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 15:15:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: electric turnips evolve in Sweden Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030501150142.00aeb340@postoffice.brown.edu> Thought this might be of interest. I was at a conference in Helsinki myself recently. International Eggologist Association. Your ordinary layperson may be unaware of the drastic changes taking place in the word "egg". For example, an ad-hoc alliance forming in Europe, calling itself Poets For Eggs, has been holding egg-holding demonstrations every Tuesday since January in front of the US and Bulgarian embassies. They are demanding the removal of all eggs from the ocean floor. Ironically, as there are few Eggologists among your ordinary layperson poet societies, these groups of egg-lay-protesting-poets do not for the most part (or even the least part) realize - yet - that the word "egg" has changed - drastically. The word "egg" no longer refers to those delicate white or blue or brown things that your ordinary lay-hen lays. "Egg" - in contemporary Egglish - now refers exclusively primarily and solely to a form of gluten produced subconsciously by viewers of old black & white TV programs featuring Don Ameche. Yet more (& less) ironically, most of these young poet-poetesters do not even know Don Ameche from an omelette. But when egglish is put through these contemporary meaning-transforms, as is happening more & more frequently these contemporary days, social protest & other forms of conscientious cockadoodling find themselves behind the "8-ball" (speaking of which, it is not generally known - yet - that "8-ball" now refers to a subspecies of "egg" produced by Don Ameche viewers on the sea floor, usually in some of those ocean trenches where trench-coated sea-worms thrive & peacefully (more or less) succulate their "eggs"). Henry >Skol News Bureau 4.21.03 17:04. Electric turnips have evolved in Sweden, >claimed seventeen Nobel prizewinners late this morning, during a news >conference held on the grounds of the Swedish Institute for Turnip >Evolution. Dr. Lief Eriksson, a Nobel-prizewinning spokesperson for the >group, held up a glowing turnip inside a huge tent made of dark purple >nylon, set up on the southern esplanade of the Institute. "The turnip >speaks for itself," crowed Dr. Ericksson, to the ringing applause of an >audience of over 700 other Nobel prizewinners. A huge crowd of >prospective Nobel prizewinners & ordinary turnip-lovers milled around on >the expansive lawn outside. One of them, Gabriel Gudding, was walking >slowly in a northeasterly direction, gazing intently at the manicured >grass. When asked by a reporter what he was doing, Mr. Gudding replied, >"I'm looking for Marcus Bales. I think he may have one of my >turnips." This reporter chuckled appreciatively as Mr. Gudding continued >on his way, and the enormous purple tent glowed in the distance with an >inner light. From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu May 1 15:16:32 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:16:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Terms and Conditions of Use References: Message-ID: <000f01c31016$2cd6b7a0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> I can get you the full set of Cabal of Byzantine Intrigue playing cards, enlarge your penis, get you a better mortgage rate and cheaper ink for your printer,, introduce you to married women in your area who are looking for a little action on the side, and help you make money at home. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Terms and Conditions of Use In a message dated 5/1/2003 12:17:14 PM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: If you can't stand Byzantine intrigue, get out of the Cabal. How can I join? Does it cost anything? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu May 1 15:46:54 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:46:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: electric turnips evolve in Sweden Message-ID: In a message dated 5/1/2003 2:17:17 PM Central Standard Time, Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes: > > Thought this might be of interest. I was at a conference in Helsinki > myself recently. International Eggologist Association. Your ordinary > layperson may be unaware of the drastic changes taking place in the word > "egg". For example, an ad-hoc alliance forming in Europe, calling itself > Poets For Eggs, has been holding egg-holding demonstrations every Tuesday > since January in front of the US and Bulgarian embassies. They are > demanding the removal of all eggs from the ocean floor. Ironically, as > there are few Eggologists among your ordinary layperson poet societies, > these groups of egg-lay-protesting-poets do not for the most part (or even > the least part) realize - yet - that the word "egg" has changed - > drastically. The word "egg" no longer refers to those delicate white or > blue or brown things that your ordinary lay-hen lays. "Egg" - in > contemporary Egglish - now refers exclusively primarily and solely to a > form of gluten produced subconsciously by viewers of old black &white TV > programs featuring Don Ameche. Yet more (& less) ironically, most of these > > young poet-poetesters do not even know Don Ameche from an omelette. But > when egglish is put through these contemporary meaning-transforms, as is > happening more &more frequently these contemporary days, social protest & > other forms of conscientious cockadoodling find themselves behind the > "8-ball" (speaking of which, it is not generally known - yet - that > "8-ball" now refers to a subspecies of "egg" produced by Don Ameche > viewers on the sea floor, usually in some of those ocean trenches where > trench-coated sea-worms thrive &peacefully (more or less) succulate their > "eggs"). > > Henry I recently watched an old Don Ameche movie, but it was in color. Will I be affected by this? Concerned -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu May 1 15:47:45 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:47:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Terms and Conditions of Use Message-ID: <109.231b4aef.2be2d3e1@cs.com> In a message dated 5/1/2003 2:19:15 PM Central Standard Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > I can get you the full set of Cabal of Byzantine Intrigue playing cards, > enlarge your penis, get you a better mortgage rate and cheaper ink for your > printer,, introduce you to married women in your area who are looking for a > little action on the side, and help you make money at home. > > Throw in some vinyl siding and I'm your man. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat at conncoll.edu Thu May 1 15:53:03 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:53:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Terms and Conditions of Use In-Reply-To: <000f01c31016$2cd6b7a0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <20030501155303.030133@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> TheOldMole wrote: >I can get you the full set of Cabal of Byzantine Intrigue playing cards, >enlarge your penis, get you a better mortgage rate and cheaper ink for your >printer,, introduce you to married women in your area who are looking for a >little action on the side, and help you make money at home But can you show me "40-Year-Old Ladies Getting Nasty" or "Russian Women Want American Men" (irresistable to hit reply and say "They can have them," though you all know I don't entirely mean it.) It's hard to say why we need postmodernism when we have all this spam to delete. Wendy ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu The wall between where we are? and the Self is called the mind. --S. J. Bharat From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 1 16:06:07 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:06:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads References: <165.1f1edd1f.2be15527@aol.com> <3EB0D088.7972.141AEA@localhost> Message-ID: <009101c3101d$1b10fce0$9709fea9@j1c1k6> > You, who call other members of poetry lists "goatfuckers"? Pfui. > You're beyond disingenuous here, even beyond "damned lies" and well > into "statistics". > > And Crisman, while the discussion between Bob Grumman and me about > his categorization of poetry was long and we disagreed, we did not > "firebomb" each other. You may have found the discussion > uninteresting, but to allege it was an example of the kind of > incivility that is habitual from Prof Gudding and from Elemenope is > simply wrong. > > > > Marcus Bales Just to stire the pot, Marcus, as if it needed stirring, I want to say I'd rather be called a goatfucker than "ingenuous" and someofthe other things you said about me, however indirectly. But I wouldn't say we firebombed each other. --Bob G. From luap at mallasch.com Thu May 1 16:10:00 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:10:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Terms and Conditions of Use In-Reply-To: <20030501155303.030133@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: hEll0 jeff, would you like to see an increase in your POERM of over 125%? Sure, we all do, and until now it was not easy to do. For nineteen-ninety-nine +S&H we can increase the width and length of your POERM and impress the ladies i am in dire need of help my name is Edgar Allen, Esq. and i am the husband of the late QUEEN of Thumbrook. Please help. Send your bank account information and I will send you POETRE from my countree. NOw, limited TIME - increese your pome by 3 inches! Today ONly so order now! Now with faster results on YOUR POETRY hello would u like a permanent growth w/out pain or whoremoans? buy our hormone poem juice for prevention of boredom... -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ p.s. it would be an interesting experiment to script something that would read a whole bunch of spam and make poems out of them ;) dada-licious... p.p.s. - found this interesting: http://www.satirewire.com/features/poetry_spam/01strict_winner.shtml On Thu, 1 May 2003, Wendy Battin wrote: > TheOldMole wrote: > >I can get you the full set of Cabal of Byzantine Intrigue playing cards, > >enlarge your penis, get you a better mortgage rate and cheaper ink for your > >printer,, introduce you to married women in your area who are looking for a > >little action on the side, and help you make money at home > > But can you show me "40-Year-Old Ladies Getting Nasty" or "Russian Women > Want American Men" (irresistable to hit reply and say "They can have > them," though you all know I don't entirely mean it.) It's hard to say > why we need postmodernism when we have all this spam to delete. > > Wendy > ------------------------ > Wendy Battin > wjbat at conncoll.edu > > The wall between where we are? > and the Self is called the mind. > > --S. J. Bharat > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu May 1 16:11:40 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:11:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: electric turnips evolve in Sweden Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030501160746.00ad8ca0@postoffice.brown.edu> Concerned wrote: "I recently watched an old Don Ameche movie, but it was in color. Will I be affected by this? Concerned" Dear Concerned, Since, for all practical purposes, A = A, you should (for all practical purposes anyway) be VERY CONCERNED. - A. (Affected) From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu May 1 17:17:53 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: <20030501211753.8B79745F7@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 12:40:48 EDT Size: 6057 URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu May 1 17:29:09 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:29:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Terms and Conditions of Use References: <20030501155303.030133@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <004c01c31028$b3888230$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Wendy -- You should do it. That's wonderful. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wendy Battin" To: Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:53 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Terms and Conditions of Use TheOldMole wrote: >I can get you the full set of Cabal of Byzantine Intrigue playing cards, >enlarge your penis, get you a better mortgage rate and cheaper ink for your >printer,, introduce you to married women in your area who are looking for a >little action on the side, and help you make money at home But can you show me "40-Year-Old Ladies Getting Nasty" or "Russian Women Want American Men" (irresistable to hit reply and say "They can have them," though you all know I don't entirely mean it.) It's hard to say why we need postmodernism when we have all this spam to delete. Wendy ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu The wall between where we are and the Self is called the mind. --S. J. Bharat _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu May 1 17:36:21 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Magee's _MS_ now available! Message-ID: <20030501213621.654A54085@sitemail.everyone.net> Congratulations, Magee! Bob Poetry Catamaran "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" Robert R. Cobb AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. http://rrcobb.tripod.com --- mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote: >Hi all, big apologies for cross-posting but I wanted to get the word out that >my new book of poems _MS_ (Spuyten Duyvil) is now available at >www.barnesandnoble.com or through your local bookstore (it's up at amazon.com >too but they don't seem ready to ship yet). It's 92 pages and positively >divine! And inexpensive! And, and... > >If you want to buy it as fast as humanly possible, go here: > >http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2UP4P4CPR8&i >sbn=1881471209&itm=1 > >Below are the words from the back cover. Hope you like! -m. > >****************************** >Stuttering turns into syncopation in this edgily engaging collocation of >accents, attitudes, occasions. The poems in MS are provocative, certainly >without idealization, the dollars-and-cents context of our grainy American >dream. Mike Magee's detailed optical-ocular orbiting effects ?? "other-wise / >waning or adroitly loitering" ?? make reading this collection a constant >surprise. > >??Susan Howe > >Does the poet diagnose a medical condition or continue a feminist tradition? Is >it a motor ship or a manuscript? A degree of science or a software appliance? >Recklessly eyeballing Mike Magee's "grainy American dream," my >optic nerves jangle to the tune of jump-cut language, slurred and blurred words >flashed on the screen of memory with a quick trigger finger on the universal >remote. Magee's MS interrupts our programming with his alternative vision. > >??Harryette Mullen > >The discursively promiscuous clauses of these poems?cut generously with a >slide-wit on the national symbols blared, dice up much of the lingering prosaic >transparency of American Poetry (Inc.). Here?s no monologic gnosis gnashing of >"repressed subject" possibilities, while at the same time no fashionable >duncing of the socially determinative either. This rhetor?s got the apps (and >multiplexed ?mouth?) to get you to the next level?Your Turn. > >--Rodrigo Toscano > >Michael Magee's MS is new music . . . a carnivalesque palimpsest of vision and >ventriloquy, supple rhythm informed by Hiphop era ironies and an erudite grasp >of postmodern poetics. This marvelous Century 21 ethnic American remix of >personal history and society's mystery is both demanding and delightful. You >need this book! Mr. Magee creates poems that tickle the ear and open a new >window in the mind's eye. Read aloud. Think fast. > >--Lorenzo Thomas > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Thu May 1 17:42:02 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:42:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Norton Poets Message-ID: <34.391b4873.2be2eeaa@aol.com> Date: 5/1/03 1:55:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: nvictor at WWNORTON.com (Victor, Nomi) To: poetry at wwnorton.biglist.com ('poetry at wwnorton.biglist.com') http://www.nortonpoets.com ----------- **New titles this spring** Ai, DREAD Martin Espada, ALABANZA Marilyn Hacker, DESESPERANTO **New in paperback** Eavan Boland, AGAINST LOVE POETRY First Cities, MARILYN HACKER Maxine Kumin, THE LONG MARRIAGE *Also available** THE NORTON ANTHOLOGY OF MODERN AND CONTEMPORARY POETRY Edited by Jahan Ramazani, Richard Ellman, and Robert O'Clair 2 volume boxed set **Poem of the Month: "Respite in a Minor Key" by Marilyn Hacker** I would like an unending stretch of drizzly weekday afternoons, in a moulting season: nowhere else to go but across the street for bread, and the paper. Later, faces, voices across a table, or an autumn fricassee, c?pes and shallots, sipping Gigondas as I dice and hum to Charpentier's vespers. No one's waiting for me across an ocean. What I can't understand or change is distant. War is a debate, or at worst, a headlined nightmare. But waking it will be there still, and one morning closer to my implication in what I never chose, elected, as my natal sky rains down civilian ashes. (c) 2003 by Marilyn Hacker From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu May 1 17:47:01 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 14:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Terms and Conditions of Use Message-ID: <20030501214701.0E45B411D@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "TheOldMole" Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Terms and Conditions of Use Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:16:32 -0400 Size: 5640 URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu May 1 17:52:29 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 16:52:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <009101c3101d$1b10fce0$9709fea9@j1c1k6> References: <165.1f1edd1f.2be15527@aol.com> <3EB0D088.7972.141AEA@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030501165044.011b8120@mail.ilstu.edu> Would be really great if this could be dropped. I addressed the "goatfucker" issue on the other list. I never called any particular list member or members, as I explained, "goatfuckers." Please stop putting words in my mouth. Gabe At 04:06 PM 5/1/2003 -0400, Bob Grumman wrote: > > You, who call other members of poetry lists "goatfuckers"? Pfui. > > You're beyond disingenuous here, even beyond "damned lies" and well > > into "statistics". > > > > And Crisman, while the discussion between Bob Grumman and me about > > his categorization of poetry was long and we disagreed, we did not > > "firebomb" each other. You may have found the discussion > > uninteresting, but to allege it was an example of the kind of > > incivility that is habitual from Prof Gudding and from Elemenope is > > simply wrong. > > > > > > > > Marcus Bales > > >Just to stire the pot, Marcus, as if it needed stirring, I want to say I'd >rather be called a goatfucker than "ingenuous" and someofthe other things >you said about me, however indirectly. But I wouldn't say we firebombed >each other. > >--Bob G. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Assistant Professor of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu May 1 18:11:13 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 17:11:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Other Software: Amazing Grace Babelfished Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030501170714.01312640@mail.ilstu.edu> Amazing Tolerance Amazing tolerance how the sound is sweet that saved wretch like my self. I was lost once and the found hut was hidden and now I see this. Twas tolerance that taught my heart to fear and tolerance that released my fear; It appears that tolerance was necessary the hour that first I cried "I!" Through many dangers, works and traps, I have come already and been knocked about good; but it was the tolerance of this and that that has brought me the strong box and it is tolerance will lead me home. The Great GENTLEMAN has promised this good to me, his word my hope assures; I loves my protector and the portion I get while life holds. Yes, when this meat and heart fail, and the mortal life will stop, I will have, within the veil, the "A" life -- that is, an "A" life of joy and peace. The Earth soon will dissolve like snow, the sun will abstain from shining down; But GOD, that called to me down here, will be for always all mine. --English to Spanish to English via Gabriel Gudding From JforJames at aol.com Thu May 1 18:14:59 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 18:14:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for work -- Poets Theater Jamboree 2004 Message-ID: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com> From: Small Press Traffic Subject: Call for work -- Poets Theater Jamboree 2004 Please distribute widely. Call for work -- Seeking plays for Small Press Traffic's Poets' Theater Jamboree 2004 Small Press Traffic announces an open reading period for submissions of plays for our Poets' Theater Jamboree 2004, to take place in January and February. Submissions must be postmarked between August 1 and September 15, 2003. Please read the following in its entirety. In previous years we have presented plays by writers ranging from Djuna Barnes to Tina Darragh to Carla Harryman to Kevin Killian to Leslie Scalapino to Gary Sullivan to Eileen Tabios. We are especially interested in hearing from poets new to the stage, those of you who perhaps have never written a play before. We hope to see your finest, strangest, most indelible work! PLEASE NOTE: Plays should be approximately 10 minutes (less than 10 pages) long. It is our policy not to repeat playwrights from year to year. Playwrights should note that ours is not a traditional or professional theater. Our stage is shallow, our technical abilities and rehearsal time limited. Also playwrights should be prepared to be integral to the production of their play, working closely with SPT's Jamboree Committee and staff, covering duties including casting, direction, and so on, or finding someone who will cover these duties. The Jamboree is a benefit for Small Press Traffic. For more information please see http://www.sptraffic.org. SEND, postmarked between August 1 and September 15, 2003: *A cover sheet with the title of your play, your name, address, telephone, and email. *A cover sheet with only the title of your play. *Your play. *A letter addressing production: Perhaps you live in the Bay Area and will be able to take on directing, casting, and other production (ie costumes, props, etc) responsibilities yourself; or perhaps you know someone who does and who will take on these duties for you. It is fine for your name to appear on the letter. *A reading fee of $10 payable to Small Press Traffic. (This fee goes toward our overhead for the Jamboree; fee is waived if you are a current member of Small Press Traffic.) * A SASE for reply. (All manuscripts will be recycled at the end of the selection process. Do not send your only copy.) Submissions must be postmarked between August 1 and September 15, 2003 and sent to: Jamboree 2004 Committee c.o Small Press Traffic 1111 - 8th Street San Francisco, California 94107 Submissions sent via email will be roundly ignored. This year's committee consists of Small Press Traffic board members and staff: Stefani J. Barber, Taylor Brady, Del Ray Cross, Brent Cunningham, Kevin Killian, Suzi Markham, & Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson. Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 - 8th Street San Francisco, California 94107 http://www.sptraffic.org 415-551-9278 From cc at opus0.com Thu May 1 19:13:31 2003 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 16:13:31 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: a list of those poets In-Reply-To: <200305012146.h41Lk2ST018075@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Yes, firebombing's out of scale...not a housefire, or barbecue or a blowtorch...I don't know...a candle? A wet match? > > You, who call other members of poetry lists "goatfuckers"? Pfui. > > ... > > And Crisman, while the discussion between Bob Grumman and me about > > his categorization of poetry was long and we disagreed, we did not > > "firebomb" each other. You may have found the discussion > > uninteresting, but to allege it was an example of the kind of > > incivility that is habitual from Prof Gudding and from Elemenope is > > simply wrong. > > > > Marcus Bales > > > Just to stire the pot, Marcus, as if it needed stirring, I want to say I'd > rather be called a goatfucker than "ingenuous" and someofthe other things > you said about me, however indirectly. But I wouldn't say we firebombed > each other. > > --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Thu May 1 19:35:24 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 19:35:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030501165044.011b8120@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <009101c3101d$1b10fce0$9709fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EB176FC.22889.184AC8@localhost> On 1 May 2003 at 16:52, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Would be really great if this could be dropped. I addressed the > "goatfucker" issue on the other list. I never called any particular list > member or members, as I explained, "goatfuckers." Please stop putting words > in my mouth. Oh, Gabe, this is just another lie -- you DID call other members of the other list "goatfuckers". You said "Hey goatfucking war- supporters" and posted a long spam from a leftwingnut source. That's calling all those who disagree with you "goatfuckers" in clear language. To deny it is to lie. Stop lying. No one is putting words in your mouth -- you have a well-deserved reputation for potty-mouth and just plain mean-spiritedness. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Thu May 1 19:35:24 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 19:35:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <009101c3101d$1b10fce0$9709fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EB176FC.11738.1849F8@localhost> > > You, who call other members of poetry lists "goatfuckers"? Pfui. > > You're beyond disingenuous here, even beyond "damned lies" and well > > into "statistics". > > And Crisman, while the discussion between Bob Grumman and me about > > his categorization of poetry was long and we disagreed, we did not > > "firebomb" each other. You may have found the discussion > > uninteresting, but to allege it was an example of the kind of > > incivility that is habitual from Prof Gudding and from Elemenope is > > simply wrong. Bob Grumman: > Just to stire the pot, Marcus, as if it needed stirring, I want to say I'd > rather be called a goatfucker than "ingenuous" ... I called your comments "disingenuous", and didn't call you anything. I carefully defined why "disingenuous" is not "lying". Please try to keep separate your opinion from your self so that you don't persist in finding any disagreement with your views to be fallaciously a case of name-calling. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu May 1 20:26:20 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 20:26:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: <120.20d430a8.2be3152c@cs.com> In a message dated 5/1/2003 4:20:01 PM Central Daylight Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: > Sam, > > I like the way that you provide rhetorical answers to rhetorical questions. > How about H. H. Could it be Howard Hawks? Hubert Humphrey? > Or, the first lady of theatre, Helen Hayes? > > Bob > > Poetry Catamaran > Heinrich Himmler has also been mentioned in this regard, as has Jose Jimenez. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu May 1 20:34:57 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 20:34:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy Message-ID: <1c2.8f2f3ba.2be31731@aol.com> In a message dated 5/1/03 12:55:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes: > Confessin' that I've only read in about thirty pages of Finnegan's Wake - but > I've tried it more than once. So 60 pages. > H. Ruggieri > > David Graham wrote: > > > OK, everyone, I went and fessed up: now it's your turn. I'm feeling > rather > > lonely out here in my vacancy. Do we write books so that they shall merely be read? Don't we also write them for employment in the household: For one that is read from start to finish, thousands are leafed through, other thousands lie motionless, others are jammed against mouseholes, thrown at rats, others are stood on, sat on, drummed on, have gingerbread baked on them or are used to light pipes with. Georg Christoph Lichtenberg Waste Books, F65 (trans. RJ Hollingdale) From luap at mallasch.com Thu May 1 20:39:45 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 19:39:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy In-Reply-To: <1c2.8f2f3ba.2be31731@aol.com> Message-ID: I started a novel once wherein the main character falls asleep in the library and gets locked in. He finds out that at night the books are all personified and come to life... The journal I kept for it is avail. at: http://www.mallasch.com/bracken1.0/ -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ > Do we write books so that they shall merely be read? > Don't we also write them for employment in the household: > For one that is read from start to finish, thousands > are leafed through, other thousands lie motionless, > others are jammed against mouseholes, thrown at rats, > others are stood on, sat on, drummed on, have gingerbread > baked on them or are used to light pipes with. > > Georg Christoph Lichtenberg > Waste Books, F65 > (trans. RJ Hollingdale) > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Thu May 1 21:15:12 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:15:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] With its prey impaled, wriggling upon a shakespeare Message-ID: <1ee.7eb2bd9.2be320a0@aol.com> Have you ever noticed that inferior critics/reviewers are too quick to drag out the famous dead and parade them in front of readers. Dickinson & Whitman are summonsed most often when critiquing contemporary poetry... or the major Modernists like Eliot, Stevens and Pound can be called forth from the dead to admonish any of the present-day poets. If you need to invoke a timeless standard, one can easily raise the apparition of a Dante or a Milton. But the real trump card, always at the ready is Shakespeare. The Bard bomb: A shorthand/shortcut in place of doing the hard work of really scoring incisive, critical points against any actual text/reputation at hand. One might go so far as to propose a kind of Godwin's law of literary criticism: A soon as the critic/reviewer brings forth that big stick we call Shakespeare, you get to stop reading. With that I give you another keen bit of Lichtenberg... "What was to be done in the world in Shakespeare's way Shakespeare has for the most part done." __ Finnegan From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 1 21:17:57 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:17:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads References: <009101c3101d$1b10fce0$9709fea9@j1c1k6> <3EB176FC.22889.184AC8@localhost> Message-ID: <005401c31048$ab50e100$5388fea9@j1c1k6> > Oh, Gabe, this is just another lie -- you DID call other members of > the other list "goatfuckers". You said "Hey goatfucking war- > supporters" How do you know he wasn't just referring to those among the war-supporters who fuck goats, Marcus? Be fair. --Bob G. From luap at mallasch.com Thu May 1 21:19:43 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 20:19:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] MOAB -With its prey impale In-Reply-To: <1ee.7eb2bd9.2be320a0@aol.com> Message-ID: MOAB - Mother of all Bards ;) sorry, couldn't resist... -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Thu, 1 May 2003 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Have you ever noticed that inferior critics/reviewers > are too quick to drag out the famous dead and parade > them in front of readers. Dickinson & Whitman are > summonsed most often when critiquing contemporary poetry... > or the major Modernists like Eliot, Stevens and Pound > can be called forth from the dead to admonish any of the > present-day poets. If you need to invoke a timeless standard, > one can easily raise the apparition of a Dante or a Milton. > But the real trump card, always at the ready is Shakespeare. > The Bard bomb: A shorthand/shortcut in place of doing > the hard work of really scoring incisive, critical points > against any actual text/reputation at hand. > > One might go so far as to propose a kind of Godwin's law > of literary criticism: A soon as the critic/reviewer brings forth > that big stick we call Shakespeare, you get to stop reading. > > With that I give you another keen bit of Lichtenberg... > > "What was to be done in the world in Shakespeare's way > Shakespeare has for the most part done." > > __ > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 1 21:23:46 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:23:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads References: <3EB176FC.11738.1849F8@localhost> Message-ID: <005a01c31049$7b4544a0$5388fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > Just to stire the pot, Marcus, as if it needed stirring, I want to say I'd > > rather be called a goatfucker than "ingenuous" ... > > I called your comments "disingenuous", and didn't call you anything. Ah, yes, I'm not disingenuous, I'm just a person who makes disingenuous remarks. > I carefully defined why "disingenuous" is not "lying". You defined it as a form of dishonesty. >Please try to > keep separate your opinion from your self so that you don't persist > in finding any disagreement with your views to be fallaciously a case > of name-calling. Please try to understand that it's hard for some people to understand what "stupidity" is, in writing, if not the expression of stupid views. Etc. > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu May 1 21:46:23 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 18:46:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: K. Paul Mallasch [Fwd: Margy] Message-ID: <3EB1CDEE.9DAE7D9A@earthlink.net> Aha. I'd never noticed that K. Paul Mallasch was on this list. The message below will be of interest to K. Paul Mallasch. - Jim Margery Snyder wrote: > > My mistake, and it was a bad one. I must have been tired the night I posted > those poems and missed a bit of the cutting & pasting I meant to do on your > page. I'm glad you caught the error, and I've fixed it now. > .................................... > Margery Snyder > Poetry Guide > About--The Human Internet > http://poetry.about.com > .................................... > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Cervantes [mailto:jvcervantes at earthlink.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 3:46 PM > To: poetry.guide at about.com > Subject: Margy > > Why is "Copyright 2003 K. Paul Mallasch" under my poem, "I Dream of > War," at http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/aa030403d.htm? > > It's my poem but that copyright notice makes us both seem like plagiarists. > > - Jim > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu May 1 21:47:47 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 18:47:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads References: <009101c3101d$1b10fce0$9709fea9@j1c1k6> <3EB176FC.22889.184AC8@localhost> <005401c31048$ab50e100$5388fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EB1CE42.F8622617@earthlink.net> This whole thing is offensive. What are you getting out of it, Bob? - Jim Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Oh, Gabe, this is just another lie -- you DID call other members of > > the other list "goatfuckers". > You said "Hey goatfucking war- > > supporters" > > How do you know he wasn't just referring to those among the war-supporters > who fuck goats, Marcus? Be fair. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu May 1 21:42:57 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 20:42:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] With its prey impaled, wriggling upon a shakespeare In-Reply-To: <1ee.7eb2bd9.2be320a0@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030501204219.01824e20@mail.ilstu.edu> JIm, Auden called this the "tyranny of the dead." From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu May 1 21:47:18 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:47:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy Message-ID: <5f.38eeb093.2be32826@cs.com> In a message dated 5/1/2003 7:35:57 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > >Confessin' that I've only read in about thirty pages of Finnegan's Wake - > but > > I've tried it more than once. So 60 pages. > > H. Ruggieri I've read more than that of James Finnegan's Wake. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu May 1 21:45:40 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 20:45:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] mental illness and listservs Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030501204432.01951d60@mail.ilstu.edu> Anyone done any studies on mental illness, alcoholism, addiction and what Hal calls "eristic" listserv behavior? From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu May 1 21:48:25 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:48:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy Message-ID: <16a.1e009aee.2be32869@cs.com> I would like to say, once and for all time, that I have read every page of The Sentimental Education. And one of these days I'm going to read it all again. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu May 1 21:50:02 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:50:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] With its prey impaled, wriggling upon a shakespeare Message-ID: <18c.19b6cf67.2be328ca@cs.com> In a message dated 5/1/2003 8:16:19 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > > Have you ever noticed that inferior critics/reviewers > are too quick to drag out the famous dead and parade > them in front of readers. Dickinson &Whitman are > summonsed most often when critiquing contemporary poetry... > or the major Modernists like Eliot, Stevens and Pound > can be called forth from the dead to admonish any of the > present-day poets. If you need to invoke a timeless standard, > one can easily raise the apparition of a Dante or a Milton. > But the real trump card, always at the ready is Shakespeare. > The Bard bomb: A shorthand/shortcut in place of doing > the hard work of really scoring incisive, critical points > against any actual text/reputation at hand. > > One might go so far as to propose a kind of Godwin's law > of literary criticism: A soon as the critic/reviewer brings forth > that big stick we call Shakespeare, you get to stop reading. > > With that I give you another keen bit of Lichtenberg... > > "What was to be done in the world in Shakespeare's way > Shakespeare has for the most part done." > Does this mean we don't have to read Harold Bloom anymore? Thank Jahweh (an invention of an anonymous female scribe in Solomon's court). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu May 1 21:51:49 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:51:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads Message-ID: <180.199d0b57.2be32935@cs.com> In a message dated 5/1/2003 8:19:10 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > >Oh, Gabe, this is just another lie -- you DID call other members of > >the other list "goatfuckers". > You said "Hey goatfucking war- > >supporters" > > How do you know he wasn't just referring to those among the war-supporters > who fuck goats, Marcus? Be fair. > > --Bob G. All goatfuckers are war-supporters. X is a war-supporter. QED: X is a goatfucker. Hah! Undistributed middle term! A fallacy! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu May 1 22:13:32 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 22:13:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy Message-ID: <6a.30846bd8.2be32e4c@aol.com> I have read both front and back covers of Anatomy of Melancholy, an antediluvian edition, but nothing in between, and have worshiped equally at the feet of The Golden Bough and the I Ching, which is to say, the occasional page, at random, every couple of years, without retention. I own a copy of the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It's black and white all over, but neither red nor read. Alas. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu May 1 23:27:16 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 22:27:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Other Software In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030501170714.01312640@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: Delicious. And here's my Trans-Googled version of Dickinson's "I'm Nobody!". This one went into French to German and back to English, as I recall. I am not whoever! Who are you? Are you ? nobody ? also? There is a pair then us? Do not say it! they would announce to you ? to know! How blunted ? its ? somebody! How a public ? as frog ? its name - which livelong June ? with a sump said, in order to admire! ____________________ This "translation" of mine is posted on a hard-to-describe site called The 365 Project. Well worth a look. http://the365project.org/daily/05/01_31_graham.html ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > From: Gabriel Gudding > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 17:11:13 -0500 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Other Software: Amazing Grace Babelfished > > Amazing Tolerance > > > Amazing tolerance how the sound is sweet > that saved wretch like my self. > I was lost once > and the found hut was hidden > and now I see this. > From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri May 2 00:08:41 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "Chairman Gioia" Message-ID: <20030502040841.C0BF44C04@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri May 2 00:15:59 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "Chairman Gioia" Message-ID: <20030502041559.43C5D462D@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: "Chairman Gioia" Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:49:43 EDT Size: 3491 URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri May 2 00:42:32 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads Message-ID: <20030502044232.0091A4A06@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri May 2 00:56:27 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 21:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) Message-ID: <20030502045627.BBDB64C2F@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri May 2 01:39:07 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:39:07 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy References: <6a.30846bd8.2be32e4c@aol.com> Message-ID: <00a401c3106d$26a91240$9f737450@anny> The Golden Bough, I Ching, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, I got them all right down and in my mind. The latter is very slim, full of imaginary images. The former is entertaining. About the second, I started it by throwing the coins every morning to try to understand what they meant, and I think I got to it pretty well. Not to say that I am the reader I would like to be... oceans in-between. Care, anny ----- Original Message ----- From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 4:13 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy I have read both front and back covers of Anatomy of Melancholy, an antediluvian edition, but nothing in between, and have worshiped equally at the feet of The Golden Bough and the I Ching, which is to say, the occasional page, at random, every couple of years, without retention. I own a copy of the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It's black and white all over, but neither red nor read. Alas. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri May 2 01:41:43 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:41:43 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Other Software References: Message-ID: <00ac01c3106d$83d59c40$9f737450@anny> Hi David Graham, we are on the same day! re: 365 project... a From: "David Graham" To: > Delicious. > > And here's my Trans-Googled version of Dickinson's "I'm Nobody!". This one > went into French to German and back to English, as I recall. > > I am not whoever! Who are you? > Are you < nobody < also? > There is a pair then us? > Do not say it! they would announce to you < to know! > How blunted < its < somebody! > How a public < as frog < > its name - which livelong June < > with a sump said, in order to admire! > ____________________ > > This "translation" of mine is posted on a hard-to-describe site called The > 365 Project. Well worth a look. > > http://the365project.org/daily/05/01_31_graham.html > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > From: Gabriel Gudding > > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 17:11:13 -0500 > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Other Software: Amazing Grace Babelfished > > > > Amazing Tolerance > > > > > > Amazing tolerance how the sound is sweet > > that saved wretch like my self. > > I was lost once > > and the found hut was hidden > > and now I see this. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 2 05:53:28 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 05:53:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads References: <009101c3101d$1b10fce0$9709fea9@j1c1k6> <3EB176FC.22889.184AC8@localhost> <005401c31048$ab50e100$5388fea9@j1c1k6> <3EB1CE42.F8622617@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004e01c31090$afa3f9c0$d347fea9@j1c1k6> > This whole thing is offensive. What are you getting out of it, Bob? > > - Jim I get a small perverse pleasure out of upsetting prudes. But, aside from that, I'm making the point that name-calling is TRIVIAL, something that should not upset a rational person. I'd MUCH rather be a person who partakes of bestiality than a person whom being called a partaker of bestiality upsets. I'm also making that point that indirect slurs can be just as insulting as candid name-calling--for instance, posts that insinuate at length that a person either is lying or can't tell truth from falsehood--if not both. Finally, I DID make a small grammatical point that is valid. Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Oh, Gabe, this is just another lie -- you DID call other members of > > the other list "goatfuckers". > You said "Hey goatfucking war- > > supporters" > > How do you know he wasn't just referring to those among the war-supporters > who fuck goats, Marcus? Be fair. > > --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 2 05:55:00 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 05:55:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] With its prey impaled, wriggling upon a shakespeare References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030501204219.01824e20@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <005401c31090$e71a4760$d347fea9@j1c1k6> > JIm, > > Auden called this the "tyranny of the dead." > It is, and taking so much of our tax money and giving it to Will is very much part of it. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 2 06:03:56 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 06:03:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy References: <6a.30846bd8.2be32e4c@aol.com> Message-ID: <006801c31092$2571f200$d347fea9@j1c1k6> To inject hope into this thread, I want everybody to know that I've had an unread copy of Paterson for thirty years that I'm now reading! It's not a difficult poem, but the excerpts from and the critical writing about it have never made me want to read it. I've now read Book One and found it not bad. I expect to read the whole poem. --Bob G. From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:13 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy I have read both front and back covers of Anatomy of Melancholy, an antediluvian edition, but nothing in between, and have worshiped equally at the feet of The Golden Bough and the I Ching, which is to say, the occasional page, at random, every couple of years, without retention. I own a copy of the Tibetan Book of the Dead. It's black and white all over, but neither red nor read. Alas. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri May 2 07:05:07 2003 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 12:05:07 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] mental illness and listservs References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030501204432.01951d60@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <013301c3109b$0f88ba60$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> From: "Gabriel Gudding" > Anyone done any studies on mental illness, alcoholism, addiction and what > Hal calls "eristic" listserv behavior? This came up on the poetryetc list. No substantive answer to Gabe's question, but there were a few posts to the thread. In the poetryetc archives, if anyone is interested. Robin From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri May 2 07:29:24 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 13:29:24 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] mental illness and listservs References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030501204432.01951d60@mail.ilstu.edu> <013301c3109b$0f88ba60$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> Message-ID: <005801c3109e$157d0d60$081c2dd5@anny> I think Gabe's is a rhetoric question. As Robin says, there is a long thread on poetryetc. but if I am not wrong Gabe didn't contribute to it, he simply threw the stone in the pond... anny From: "Robin Hamilton" To: > From: "Gabriel Gudding" > > > Anyone done any studies on mental illness, alcoholism, addiction and what > > Hal calls "eristic" listserv behavior? > > This came up on the poetryetc list. No substantive answer to Gabe's > question, but there were a few posts to the thread. In the poetryetc > archives, if anyone is interested. > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri May 2 07:36:32 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 13:36:32 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] mental illness and listservs References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030501204432.01951d60@mail.ilstu.edu> <013301c3109b$0f88ba60$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> <005801c3109e$157d0d60$081c2dd5@anny> Message-ID: <006401c3109f$14cf99e0$081c2dd5@anny> yes, I meant rhetorical question.. > I think Gabe's is a rhetoric question. As Robin says, there is a long thread > on poetryetc. but if I am not wrong Gabe didn't contribute to it, he simply > threw the stone in the pond... > > anny > > From: "Robin Hamilton" > To: > > > > From: "Gabriel Gudding" > > > > > Anyone done any studies on mental illness, alcoholism, addiction and > what > > > Hal calls "eristic" listserv behavior? > > > > This came up on the poetryetc list. No substantive answer to Gabe's > > question, but there were a few posts to the thread. In the poetryetc > > archives, if anyone is interested. > > > > Robin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri May 2 09:02:04 2003 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 14:02:04 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] mental illness and listservs References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030501204432.01951d60@mail.ilstu.edu> <013301c3109b$0f88ba60$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> <005801c3109e$157d0d60$081c2dd5@anny> <006401c3109f$14cf99e0$081c2dd5@anny> Message-ID: <01b601c310ac$c2123ba0$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> > yes, I meant rhetorical question.. Anny, I prefer the first version -- rhetoric question. Robin From MillB at aol.com Fri May 2 09:52:25 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 09:52:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Massachusetts Message-ID: <1ef.7f748f2.2be3d219@aol.com> Greetings all: I was offered a research associateship at the Five College Women's Studies Center at Mt. Holyoke College in MA for the fall 203 semester. I'll be editing an anthology of Portuguese poetry. While the appointment was great news, it also presents a challenge, obtaining housing for one semester and supplemental income. It's difficult to manage all this long distance. Would anyone on the list have suggestions about possible adjunct work or temporary housing in the Five College area? I was offered classes at Babson, but that seems to be quite some distance from Holyoke, and I'm not sure about trains or the long commute. . .I would appreciate any advice or suggestions. Many thanks! Millicent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB at aol.com Fri May 2 10:10:12 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 10:10:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Massachusetts Message-ID: <55.3edef6c5.2be3d644@aol.com> (oops--Make that fall 2003) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Fri May 2 10:19:07 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 10:19:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Massachusetts Message-ID: <509278CD.671F7A6A.0B0E6811@aol.com> I have a good friend who teaches in the music department at Smith. She's a wonderful pianist, has a lovely house in the woods, and rents a self-contained part. Would this work? Jeffrey Levine In a message dated 5/2/2003 8:52:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, MillB writes: > Greetings all: > > I was offered a research associateship at the Five College Women's Studies Center at Mt. Holyoke College in MA for the fall 203 semester. I'll be editing an anthology of Portuguese poetry. > > While the appointment was great news, it also presents a challenge, obtaining housing for one semester and supplemental income. > > It's difficult to manage all this long distance. Would anyone on the list have suggestions about possible adjunct work or temporary housing in the Five College area? I was offered classes at Babson, but that seems to be quite some distance from Holyoke, and I'm not sure about trains or the long > commute. . .I would appreciate any advice or suggestions. > > Many thanks! > > Millicent From chris at chrislott.org Fri May 2 11:12:08 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:12:08 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy References: <6a.30846bd8.2be32e4c@aol.com> <00a401c3106d$26a91240$9f737450@anny> Message-ID: <006001c310bd$37182b20$6401a8c0@TRS80> Nabokov. Except for Lolita, which greatly disappointed my 16 year old self given all the controversy (I wasn't anywhere near ready to appreciate it on literary merits), I haven't made it through anything else. Even the collected short stories can't put a spell on me. I'm much more faithful to finishing a book once I start it than I am to finishing a movie, so my list would have to be more of a list of: "those books that I forced myself to slog through, only occasionally in the hope that it would all come together at the end, more often because it was good for me." That list is quite long... c From JackTar at aol.com Sat May 3 01:15:30 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 01:15:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] looking backward Message-ID: <116.229dac3e.2be4aa72@aol.com> "Looking backward... I cannot see the ancients of days, looking forward... I cannot see ages yet to come. Only heaven and earth have remained, and will remain forever... I am alone, I grieve, I drop tears into the dust." Chen Tzu-ang i can relate ?she shivers as my tongue trails the tracks of her tears absorbing the outpouring of feelings along her lithe form replaced by the scent of my feelings banishing her anguish and with a sigh she utters in a deep throaty voice, another's name? duncan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adead_poet at hotmail.com Sat May 3 03:21:44 2003 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 02:21:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] essay Message-ID: I'm looking for Jim Powell's essay "the Light of Vers Libre", but i can't seem to find it. i did a search on google. didn't turn up. nor can i find were the essay was first published or where it might be collected. anyone know where it is? thanks, jason _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 3 12:08:34 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 12:08:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy Message-ID: <116.22a2db82.2be54382@aol.com> In a message dated 5/2/2003 6:05:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > To inject hope into this thread, I want everybody to know that I've had an > unread copy of Paterson for thirty years that I'm now reading! It's not a > difficult poem, but the excerpts from and the critical writing about it > have never made me want to read it. I've now read Book One and found it > not bad. I expect to read the whole poem. > Bob, I own a lot books that I hope to read...that I bought because I wanted to have them at the ready when the spirit moved me. And there are many works I know more thru the criticism than the texts themselves...but when reading an article/essay it's nice to know one can easily go to the shelf, pluck off the title, and root around in the primary work. Carlyle (as quoted by Borges) said one shouldn't mistake the ownership of books for the acquisition of their contents. And a shelf full of book spines makes me think of a multi-hued, multi-faceted compound eye that stares me down, glares at me disdainfully for what I've not yet got around to reading. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat May 3 12:47:55 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 18:47:55 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy References: <116.22a2db82.2be54382@aol.com> Message-ID: <001b01c31193$bf552980$7d1c2dd5@anny> Listen to this, talking of guilty feelings, when I moved (the time before this previous one) I couldn't take with me all my books. What did I do? I left the ones that I read and took the ones I didn't read, so I had an entire library gloomily staring down at me pointing out every time I looked up, that there they all were ____ UNREAD ! WHAT about your favorites? My list is about a mile long... :-) one survives the same, a little ignorant, but what can you do? anny From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy In a message dated 5/2/2003 6:05:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: To inject hope into this thread, I want everybody to know that I've had an unread copy of Paterson for thirty years that I'm now reading! It's not a difficult poem, but the excerpts from and the critical writing about it have never made me want to read it. I've now read Book One and found it not bad. I expect to read the whole poem. Bob, I own a lot books that I hope to read...that I bought because I wanted to have them at the ready when the spirit moved me. And there are many works I know more thru the criticism than the texts themselves...but when reading an article/essay it's nice to know one can easily go to the shelf, pluck off the title, and root around in the primary work. Carlyle (as quoted by Borges) said one shouldn't mistake the ownership of books for the acquisition of their contents. And a shelf full of book spines makes me think of a multi-hued, multi-faceted compound eye that stares me down, glares at me disdainfully for what I've not yet got around to reading. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 3 14:34:33 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 14:34:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy References: <116.22a2db82.2be54382@aol.com> Message-ID: <001401c311a2$a4ffaf60$a674fea9@j1c1k6> Bob, I own a lot books that I hope to read...that I bought because I wanted to have them at the ready when the spirit moved me. And there are many works I know more thru the criticism than the texts themselves...but when reading an article/essay it's nice to know one can easily go to the shelf, pluck off the title, and root around in the primary work. Carlyle (as quoted by Borges) said one shouldn't mistake the ownership of books for the acquisition of their contents. And a shelf full of book spines makes me think of a multi-hued, multi-faceted compound eye that stares me down, glares at me disdainfully for what I've not yet got around to reading. Finnegan Yes, to all the above. Having no not-yet-read Significant Books on one's shelves is almost as bad as having no not-yet-written Significant Poems in one's head! The problem is having more not-yet-reads than reads, which is close to the case with me. I have more than my share of not-yet-writtens, too. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat May 3 22:01:22 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 21:01:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dread Message-ID: I see that Ai has published a new collection, entitled *Dread*. Will she ever run out of one-syllable titles expressing horror, pain, grief, and the like? Or will she shock us one day with a book called *Joy* or *Heaven*? Idle enough thought, I know. I was also wondering, in my idleness, when it was I ceased to care much about her project, her relentless cynicism and despair and tropism for horror. I don't know whether this waning interest reflects mostly my own fatigue or hers, but it has seemed that the poems I've seen recently look a little tired. I think I lost touch with her sometime before *Vice* but after *Sin*. Her early (first?) book *Cruelty* really struck me when it appeared, but I haven't re-read it in a while. Here's a sample poem from the new book: Grandfather Says "Sit in my hand." I'm ten. I can't see him, but I hear him breathing in the dark. It's after dinner playtime. We're outside, hidden by trees and shrubbery. He calls it hide-and-seek, but only my little sister seeks us as we hide and she can't find us, as grandfather picks me up and rubs his hands between my legs. I only feel a vague stirring at the edge of my consciousness. I don't know what it is, but I like it. It gives me pleasure that I can't identify. It's not like eating candy, but it's just as bad, because I had to lie to grandmother when she asked, "What do you do out there?" "Where?" I answered. Then I said, "Oh, play hide-and-seek." She looked hard at me, then she said, "That was the last time. I'm stopping that game." So it ended and I forgot. Ten years passed, thirtyfive, when I began to reconstruct the past. When I asked myself why I was attracted to men who disgusted me I traveled back through time to the dark and heavy breathing part of my life I thought was gone, but it had only sunk from view into the quicksand of my mind. It was pulling me down and there I found grandfather waiting, his hand outstretched to lift me up, naked and wet where he rubbed me. "I'll do anything for you," he whispered, "but let you go." And I cried, "Yes," then "No." "I don't understand how you can do this to me. I'm only ten years old," and he said, "That's old enough to know." --Ai. *Dread*. Norton, 2003. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat May 3 22:16:53 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 22:16:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Dread Message-ID: <16d.1c160cf9.2be5d215@cs.com> Title of Ai's next book: Sucks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sun May 4 11:09:55 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 10:09:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Mohammed Dib Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030504100904.02c77d08@mail.ilstu.edu> This from Pierre Joris on UB Poetics. >Just learned that the great Algerian poet and novelist Mohammed Dib (born >in Tlemcen in 1920) died on Friday at the age of 82. Based in France since >the fifties, Dib was a prolific writer of poetry, novels and plays (his >French publisher is in the process of reprinting 22 of his best known >books) We could use a translation of hias first great trilogy set in >Algeria: _La Grande Maison_(1951) , _ L'Incendie_ (1954) and _Le M?tier ? >Tisser_ (1957). He travelled widely (stays in Finland led him to write 3 >novels set there, and a 1976 trip to L.A. inspired him to write _L.A. >Trip_ which came out earlier this year in France). His first English >language book was _Omneros_ translated by Carool Lettieri & Paul >Vangelisti and published by The Red Hill Press (Los Angeles, 1978). A >novel, _The Savage Night _ translated by C. Dickson is in print from >Nebraska UP. > > From a recent interview in _Le Monde__: "My mental images are elaborated > through spoken Arabic, which is my mother's tongue. But this heritage > belongs to a commun mythic fund. French can be considered an external > language -- though it is in French that I learned to read -- but I > created my writer's language inside that acquired language... I am thus > able to keep the ironic distance necessary for invesgations not skwed by > passion." > >and the opening poem from _Omneros_: > >language sovereign secret incompatible submerged in the universal wound >let my life be lost there without vindication wound let a thick wall of >dark seal and deaf dumb let no medium be able to make it understood speech >that hollows out an empty space > > memory exchanged for night > disguising the night > a void that is infinitely radiant > > and searches for > some out of the way forest > that will strike the morning > suddenly and blind From hruggier at localnet.com Sun May 4 11:40:35 2003 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 11:40:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dread References: <16d.1c160cf9.2be5d215@cs.com> Message-ID: <3EB53473.34FAE7FB@localnet.com> How are we to take that? Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Title of Ai's next book: Sucks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon May 5 07:18:08 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 07:18:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] On Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000001c312f8$061b07d0$c5fa8044@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Blogs & links: beyond the inner circle Comments on my comments on H.D.'s "Helen" Halvard Johnson's Rapsodie espagnole H.D.'s "Helen": The poetics of fury Robert Gluck's "The Visit" A letter & poem from the late Larry Eigner An email from Dale Smith on the social context of the journal in poetry Chris Tysh's Continuity Girl Kit Robinson: New works & older works newly available Pores: an "avant-gardist journal of poetics research" Babelfish translates Habib Tengour Nick LoLordo defending the integrity of the academy The NEA's Shakespearean imperialism The daybook in poetry as a strategy toward plotlessness When theory theorizes its own irrelevance Hotel Amerika: Design before vision A letter from Tsering Wangmo Dhompa: The poetics of exile & the work of Tenzin Tsundue, a Tibetan poet writing in English in India Bromige's Spicer: Authenticizing As in T as in Tether Organizing my books to read in the sun Tsering Wangmo Dhompa: A Tibetan-American poet Lamenting the Tijuana Bible of Poetics More on the death of Rachel Corrie More on the Berkeley Poetry Conference & Live at the Writers House http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ 31,000 visitors served since September 2002 From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon May 5 13:17:32 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 12:17:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] essay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 5/3/03 2:21 AM, jason huff at adead_poet at hotmail.com wrote: > > > I'm looking for Jim Powell's essay "the Light of Vers Libre", but i can't > seem to find it. i did a search on google. didn't turn up. nor can i find > were the essay was first published or where it might be collected. anyone > know where it is? > > thanks, > jason > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > The essay was published in Paideuma, the Pound journal, in the spring of 1978, Volume 8, No. 1. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 5 19:19:36 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:19:36 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cant Poetry Mutter Message-ID: <1d1.8e8069f.2be84b88@aol.com> Cant Poetry Mutter Sonny, I knew Jack Kerouac, and you're no Jack Kerouac. In my day we had none of those stinking MFA programs. We wrote our poetry on barstools turning round in circles or in trains rolling off the edge of the world. We had to make our own paper, too. From the lint collected from our navels or by unraveling the butts collected along the sidewalk. There was no Google, the libraries were fucking chockfull of books, and you had read ?em all, and none of ?em had any pictures. Our words weren't processed like bad cheese. And le?me tell you, when we gave readings there were always full houses?it was like Paternak in the old Soviet Union, if you lost your place in the poem, the audience could finish the line. The clapping rose like a thousand pigeons wings over a loaf of day-old bread in the park. And the people bought our books. We'd sign title pages till our hands cramped. Of course we wrote about real things then and our lines could really sing. We didn't have scanners?our lines scanned. Our rhythms were like making love fierce and with staying power, until the last line rose like a lover coming. For a poet even sleep is work, but we had day jobs as well, and wouldn't be caught dead inside ivy-covered walls unless it was an honest-to-god state penitentiary. You see, we wrote for keeps. For that small print on translucent pages in thick anthologies. Believe me, Shakespeare and Milton were watching their backs. From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 5 19:20:50 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:20:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cant Poetry Mutter Message-ID: <79.1055b51d.2be84bd2@aol.com> Cant Poetry Mutter Sonny, I knew Jack Kerouac, and you're no Jack Kerouac. In my day we had none of those stinking MFA programs. We wrote our poetry on barstools turning round in circles or in trains rolling off the edge of the world. We had to make our own paper, too. From the lint collected from our navels or by unraveling the butts collected along the sidewalk. There was no Google, the libraries were fucking chockfull of books, and you had read ?em all, and none of ?em had any pictures. Our words weren't processed like bad cheese. And le?me tell you, when we gave readings there were always full houses?it was like Paternak in the old Soviet Union, if you lost your place in the poem, the audience could finish the line. The clapping rose like a thousand pigeons wings over a loaf of day-old bread in the park. And the people bought our books. We'd sign title pages till our hands cramped. Of course we wrote about real things then and our lines could really sing. We didn't have scanners?our lines scanned. Our rhythms were like making love fierce and with staying power, until the last line rose like a lover coming. For a poet even sleep is work, but we had day jobs as well, and wouldn't be caught dead inside ivy-covered walls unless it was an honest-to-god state penitentiary. You see, we wrote for keeps. For that small print on translucent pages in thick anthologies. Believe me, Shakespeare and Milton were watching their backs. From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 5 19:26:21 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 19:26:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cant Poetry Mutter Message-ID: <113.22db8c44.2be84d1d@aol.com> sorry for double posting that... From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon May 5 19:51:06 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:51:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cant Poetry Mutter References: <1d1.8e8069f.2be84b88@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EB6F8EA.274B1629@earthlink.net> Oh, would it be/have been 100% true. But maybe it is/was. How would we know? (no quantifiers need reply). - Jim JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Cant Poetry Mutter > > Sonny, I knew Jack Kerouac, > and you're no Jack Kerouac. > > In my day we had none > of those stinking MFA programs. > We wrote our poetry on barstools > turning round in circles or in trains rolling > off the edge of the world. We had to make > our own paper, too. From the lint > collected from our navels or by unraveling > the butts collected along the sidewalk. > There was no Google, the libraries > were fucking chockfull of books, > and you had read ???em all, > and none of ???em had any pictures. > Our words weren't processed like bad cheese. > And le???me tell you, when we gave readings > there were always full houses??|it was like Paternak > in the old Soviet Union, if you lost your place > in the poem, the audience could finish the line. > The clapping rose like a thousand pigeons wings > over a loaf of day-old bread in the park. > And the people bought our books. > We'd sign title pages till our hands cramped. > Of course we wrote about real things then > and our lines could really sing. > We didn't have scanners??|our lines scanned. > Our rhythms were like making love > fierce and with staying power, until the last > line rose like a lover coming. For a poet > even sleep is work, but we had day jobs as well, > and wouldn't be caught dead inside ivy-covered walls > unless it was an honest-to-god state penitentiary. > You see, we wrote for keeps. For that > small print on translucent pages in thick anthologies. > Believe me, Shakespeare and Milton > were watching their backs. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon May 5 20:00:35 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 17:00:35 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cant Poetry Mutter References: <1d1.8e8069f.2be84b88@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EB6FB23.728628AF@earthlink.net> P.S. - If good love-making scanned, it would, I think, be boring. - Jim p.p.s. - When the cabby says the meter's running, what is he really saying? JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Cant Poetry Mutter > > Sonny, I knew Jack Kerouac, > and you're no Jack Kerouac. > > In my day we had none > of those stinking MFA programs. > We wrote our poetry on barstools > turning round in circles or in trains rolling > off the edge of the world. We had to make > our own paper, too. From the lint > collected from our navels or by unraveling > the butts collected along the sidewalk. > There was no Google, the libraries > were fucking chockfull of books, > and you had read ???em all, > and none of ???em had any pictures. > Our words weren't processed like bad cheese. > And le???me tell you, when we gave readings > there were always full houses??|it was like Paternak > in the old Soviet Union, if you lost your place > in the poem, the audience could finish the line. > The clapping rose like a thousand pigeons wings > over a loaf of day-old bread in the park. > And the people bought our books. > We'd sign title pages till our hands cramped. > Of course we wrote about real things then > and our lines could really sing. > We didn't have scanners??|our lines scanned. > Our rhythms were like making love > fierce and with staying power, until the last > line rose like a lover coming. For a poet > even sleep is work, but we had day jobs as well, > and wouldn't be caught dead inside ivy-covered walls > unless it was an honest-to-god state penitentiary. > You see, we wrote for keeps. For that > small print on translucent pages in thick anthologies. > Believe me, Shakespeare and Milton > were watching their backs. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon May 5 20:11:14 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 20:11:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cant Poetry Mutter Message-ID: <1d9.8f9d216.2be857a2@cs.com> In a message dated 5/5/2003 6:21:40 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > Believe me, Shakespeare and Milton > were watching their backs. Right on. That's how I remember it too. Poets these days have got it easy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon May 5 23:39:48 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 23:39:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cant Poetry Mutter References: <113.22db8c44.2be84d1d@aol.com> Message-ID: <007201c31381$24d93730$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> In some existential way, it felt right. My only problem with an otherwise dead-on job....their poems didn't scan. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Cant Poetry Mutter > sorry for double posting that... > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 6 05:29:41 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 05:29:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cant Poetry Mutter References: <1d1.8e8069f.2be84b88@aol.com> Message-ID: <002801c313b2$06a09700$371ffea9@j1c1k6> I enjoyed this poem but think it could be even better if the tone were a slightly better maintained--for me it veers too genteel at times. I also think some of the cliches that are general cliches and not cliches of the beats, like "in my day," could be bettered. I would take out the joke about making paper from belly button lint as too silly although very funny. The making of paper from cigarette butts works for me, on the other hand. And I'd try for more figures of speech like "The clapping rose like a thousand pigeons wings over a loaf of day-old bread in the park." Sorry for the analysis, but I was in the mood. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 7:19 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Cant Poetry Mutter Cant Poetry Mutter Sonny, I knew Jack Kerouac, and you're no Jack Kerouac. In my day we had none of those stinking MFA programs. We wrote our poetry on barstools turning round in circles or in trains rolling off the edge of the world. We had to make our own paper, too. From the lint collected from our navels or by unraveling the butts collected along the sidewalk. There was no Google, the libraries were fucking chockfull of books, and you had read ?em all, and none of ?em had any pictures. Our words weren't processed like bad cheese. And le?me tell you, when we gave readings there were always full houses?it was like Paternak in the old Soviet Union, if you lost your place in the poem, the audience could finish the line. The clapping rose like a thousand pigeons wings over a loaf of day-old bread in the park. And the people bought our books. We'd sign title pages till our hands cramped. Of course we wrote about real things then and our lines could really sing. We didn't have scanners?our lines scanned. Our rhythms were like making love fierce and with staying power, until the last line rose like a lover coming. For a poet even sleep is work, but we had day jobs as well, and wouldn't be caught dead inside ivy-covered walls unless it was an honest-to-god state penitentiary. You see, we wrote for keeps. For that small print on translucent pages in thick anthologies. Believe me, Shakespeare and Milton were watching their backs. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Tue May 6 08:15:43 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:15:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <005a01c31049$7b4544a0$5388fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EB76F2F.25457.3711EA@localhost> > > Bob Grumman: > > > Just to stire the pot, Marcus, as if it needed stirring, I want to say I'd > > > rather be called a goatfucker than "ingenuous" ... Marcus: > > I called your comments "disingenuous", and didn't call you anything. Bob Grumman: > Ah, yes, I'm not disingenuous, I'm just a person who makes disingenuous > remarks.< That's once again trying to take something that is being carefully defined as NOT a personal attack as a personal attack -- while you at one and the same time suggest that a vile personal attack such as "Hey goatfucking war-supporters" is not a personal attack at all. This kind of swallowing the camel and straining at the gnat expression is goofy. Bob Grumman: > Please try to understand that it's hard for some people to understand what > "stupidity" is, in writing, if not the expression of stupid views. First, I haven't said your views are "stupid" -- I've said some of your views are "wrong". And I haven't stopped there with the mere assertion, I've tried to give evidence to support my position and to undermine yours. But that process is not one of name-calling -- not even if you admit that your view was wrong. The views are not the person. It is of the essence of critical thinking that we are able to separate our selves from our views so that we can criticize one anothers' views without taking personal offense. The determination to take personal offense every time one of our views is alleged to be wrong is the sign marking the exit off the freeway of reasonable discourse and onto the potted side road of irrationality. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue May 6 08:15:43 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:15:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <005401c31048$ab50e100$5388fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EB76F2F.17586.3710EF@localhost> Marcus: > > Oh, Gabe, this is just another lie -- you DID call other members of > > the other list "goatfuckers". > You said "Hey goatfucking war- > > supporters" Bob Grumman: > How do you know he wasn't just referring to those among the war-supporters > who fuck goats, Marcus? Be fair.< That's not being "fair" -- that is being so open-minded your brains fall out. If we can't reasonably conclude even in the face of Gabe's denial that he was name-calling other members of the list by saying "Hey, goatfucking war-supporters" then it seems to me that nothing can be reasonably concluded. But if those of you on this list are indeed of Bob Grumman's opinion, well, golly -- don't you see that that opens you all up to being name- called (goatfucking Gudding-supporters!) and having it denied disingenuously at any time? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue May 6 08:21:49 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 08:21:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <180.199d0b57.2be32935@cs.com> Message-ID: <3EB7709D.4139.3CA637@localhost> > > >Oh, Gabe, this is just another lie -- you DID call other members of > > >the other list "goatfuckers". > > You said "Hey goatfucking war- > > >supporters" > > > > How do you know he wasn't just referring to those among the war-supporters > > who fuck goats, Marcus? Be fair. > > > > --Bob G. > > All goatfuckers are war-supporters. > X is a war-supporter. > QED: X is a goatfucker. > > Hah! Undistributed middle term! A fallacy! Name-calling is a fallacy to begin with, of course. But Gabe's implied syllogism was All war-supporters are goatfuckers X is a war-supporter Therefore X is a goatfucker. And that's why it was name-calling, and why it is another, and a different sort, of fallacy for Gabe to claim that it wasn't name- calling. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue May 6 10:41:29 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 09:41:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Ai. . . Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479FD3@mail.ripon.edu> The ever-refreshing Denise Duhamel has a poem on Ai up at the wonderful online journal *Jacket*-- http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket10/duhamel.html ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 6 12:35:39 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:35:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? Message-ID: <4a.1c4a3e55.2be93e5b@aol.com> http://www.msnbc.com/news/905753.asp Newseek March 5 issue...Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? Fellow zombies (practicing a dead art you helped to kill), Here's a message from the well-lit world beyond, from one of those lost "General Readers" you've heard tell about? It seems he's gotten busy with TV, websites and books with "buzz." We'll try not bother them, if the living will leave us alone. Finnegan From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue May 6 13:36:39 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 12:36:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479FDA@mail.ripon.edu> Poetry is dead, sure, I understand. But is anyone else a little freaked out by how much Bruce Wexler resembles Philip Levine? ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > http://www.msnbc.com/news/905753.asp > Newseek March 5 issue...Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? > > Fellow zombies (practicing a dead art you helped to kill), > Here's a message from the well-lit world beyond, from one of those lost > "General Readers" you've heard tell about? It seems he's gotten > busy with TV, websites and books with "buzz." > We'll try not bother them, if the living will leave us alone. > Finnegan > From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Tue May 6 13:52:26 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 13:52:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? Message-ID: <272E1197.29669135.0B0E6811@aol.com> Better him than me. Jeffrey the Other L In a message dated 5/6/2003 12:36:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > > > Poetry is dead, sure, I understand. But is anyone else a little freaked out > by how much Bruce Wexler resembles Philip Levine? > > ============================================ > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/905753.asp > > Newseek March 5 issue...Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? > > > > Fellow zombies (practicing a dead art you helped to kill), > > Here's a message from the well-lit world beyond, from one of those lost > > "General Readers" you've heard tell about? It seems he's gotten > > busy with TV, websites and books with "buzz." > > We'll try not bother them, if the living will leave us > alone. > > Finnegan > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue May 6 14:02:30 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 13:02:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479FDC@mail.ripon.edu> > > > > Poetry is dead, sure, I understand. But is anyone else a little freaked > out > > by how much Bruce Wexler resembles Philip Levine? > > > Better him than me. > > Jeffrey the Other L > Jeffrey, we all feel your pain. At least your name isn't Philip, as mine isn't Jorie. Wasn't this the very problem for the two Carolyn Wrights, one of whom thus goes as C.D.? Or am I misremembering that? I once saw a book in the library by one Charles Wright, and marveled at its dissimilarity to *China Trace* and *Zone Journals*, until finally I realized it was some other poor soul with the same name. And here's a tidbit that probably supports Bruce Wexler's nay-saying article: years ago I went to a Halloween party dressed as Walt Whitman, whitened beard and all. I even had a butterfly taped to my finger, and a copy of *Leaves of Grass* under my arm. Most other party-goers thought I was Kenny Rogers--and this was an English Department party. . . . ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From halvard at earthlink.net Tue May 6 14:14:28 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:14:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479FDC@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: { And here's a tidbit that probably supports Bruce Wexler's nay-saying { article: years ago I went to a Halloween party dressed as Walt Whitman, { whitened beard and all. I even had a butterfly taped to my finger, and a { copy of *Leaves of Grass* under my arm. Most other party-goers thought I { was Kenny Rogers--and this was an English Department party. . Reminds me of the guys who in writing a book about the New Jersey Turnpike found that no one working at the Walt Whitman reststop knew who Walt Whitman was, this despite the plaque on one of the walls identifying him. But what the hell, how many Americans (Norteamericanos or any other kind) could tell us who America (or the Americas) is named after? Hal El chofer no carga dinero Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Tue May 6 14:32:48 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:32:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? Message-ID: <31D41736.6BB7CFE8.0B0E6811@aol.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 1:14:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > But what the hell, how many Americans (Norteamericanos or > any other kind) could tell us who America (or the Americas) is named after? > Oh, I know, I know! Amigerigo V.S. Pucci, a close friend of Henry David Theroux until years later, their falling out somewhere over Patagonia. Appaling. But see his Letters to a Young Pope. Divinely uplifting in your hope department. Levine Nadie carga dinero any more From elemenope at icubed.com Tue May 6 02:35:55 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 14:35:55 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vincent & Gothic News Legerdemain Refuted with a Johnsonian "Thus." Sumerian Magical Harp Never Plucked by Looters! Message-ID: > >"The most significant of the damaged pieces was the Golden Harp of >Ur. But investigators determined that the golden head on the damaged >antiquity, feared missing, was only a copy. Museum officials >confirmed to investigators that the original head was placed in a >storage vault at the Iraqi Central Bank sometime before the war." >============================================================================== > > >Mr. Vincent's propaganda was never true. It was concocted by >wishful thinking of a desire, failed, to impugn the American >military campaign in Iraq. First, the entire piece of legerdemain, >and, afterwards, the truth: > > > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: Stephen Vincent >>To: UB Poetics discussion group >>Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:43 PM >>Subject: Sumerian Harp Ritual On Washington Mall >> >>Sumerian Harp Ritual On Washington Mall >> >>(Gothic News Service, 04/16) They gather daily now, in contingents >>of 81, dressed in black gowns - each bearing 9 thin vertical gold >>stripes - gold caps and veils over half of their white chalked >>faces, each with a thick, black greased arc under the one exposed >>left eye. On the Washington Mall, between high noon and six >>o'clock, in neatly defined rows and columns - 9 across and 9 deep - >>the figures move in a silent, uniform procession, walking in >>diagonals across the Mall from one Museum to the next, starting >>from the National Gallery of Art, moving back and forth to the >>National Air & Space Museum, American History, Hirshhorn Museum and >>Sculpture Gallery, Natural History, the Arthur M. Sackler Gallery, >>American History, and the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. The >>procession stops momentarily at the porch or entrance of each >>Museum, makes a slight, speechless bow, before turning around in >>unison to slowly proceed across the grass to the next one, moving >>from one end of the Mall to the other, turning around at the >>Holocaust Museum, and retracing its steps to again momentarily bow >>before each Museum. >> >>For many on-lookers, most of whom join the apparent ritual out of >>sympathy or curiosity, the meaning of the procession becomes more >>clear when they notice a discrete image of a golden harp that is >>sewn into the upper sleeve of each garment. "Sumeria, National >>Museum, Iraq, the solid gold harp, 3500 BC, stolen or smashed to >>pieces," several whisper. "Nine strings on the harp, nine gold >>stripes on the gowns, nine lines in procession. It's a mourning, a >>grieving." >> >>"The oldest song - a ballad - in the world," one kind scholarly man >>offered, "was probably first played on the Sumerian harp. The tone >>of each string was connected to the movement and mythical powers of >>the moon, the planets and the stars. This harp is at the origin of >>all western music." Like a bunch of ancient Greeks, the mourners >>stay mute, as if - with the exception of the procession's color and >>movement - yet unable to rise above the trauma of cultural loss. >> >>A few if the on-lookers were less kind. "Get over it," one young >>person yelled from the Holocaust Museum entrance. "Fragmentation >>defined the Twentieth century and its going to define this one and >>probably the next. The job of the artist and poet is to pick up the >>rubble and either weld it into something beautiful or frame and >>enjoy the resonance of pieces in the ruin." After pausing for a >>moment - probably because many listening were shocked - he added, >>"And don't you worry, if American generals and soldiers permitted >>it in Iraq, if it's in the Government's interest, they can do the >>same thing here. The barbarians are always at the gates." >> >>Not everybody bought into his paranoid vision - which was followed >>by a demonic laugh - but it provided a curious juxtaposition to >>today's procession on the Mall. This week it's been reported that >>several similar mute processions have formed in London, Paris, >>Berlin, Rome, Athens, Istanbul, Cairo, and Damascus - each of them >>representing the destroyed or stolen treasures of Arts and Letters >>from Baghdad's Museums and Libraries. >> >> >>(c) Gothics News Service >>Please feel free to distribute through out the Web > > >And now the FACTS that refute in each particular and in its entirety >ALL that Mr. Vincent and "Gothic News Service" attempted to con the >poetry world to believe: > >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------Posted >>on Mon, May. 05, 2003 >> >>Most antiquities found, unharmed >>By Christine Spolar >>CHICAGO TRIBUNE >> >>BAGHDAD - The vast majority of the Iraqi trove of antiquities >>feared stolen or broken have been found inside the National Museum >>in Baghdad, according to American investigators who compiled an >>inventory over the weekend of the ransacked galleries. >> >>A total of 38 antiquities, not tens of thousands, are now believed >>to be missing. Among them is a single display of Babylonian >>cuneiform tablets that accounts for nine missing items. >> >>The single most valuable missing piece is the Vase of Warka, a >>white limestone bowl dating from 3000 B.C. >> >>The inventory, compiled by a military and civilian team headed by >>Marine Col. Matthew Bogdanos, refutes reports that Iraq's renowned >>treasures of civilization - as many as 170,000 individual artifacts >>- had been scattered or lost during the U.S.-led war against Iraq. >>It also raises questions about why any of the artifacts went >>missing. >> >>The looting may have occurred April 10-12, two days after museum >>officials fled the grounds amid a battle in which gunners of the >>Fedayeen paramilitary force entered the complex and began firing on >>advancing U.S. tanks. >> >>In one instance, investigators found that intruders had taken some >>less-valuable artifacts from a storage room in the basement of the >>museum. That theft, in a little-known storage area, has raised >>suspicions that the thieves had knowledge of the museum and its >>storage practices. >> >>Investigators, armed with chisels and a sledgehammer, broke through >>hastily constructed barricades Saturday to search several large >>storage rooms in the museum. >> >>In one storage area on the second floor, they discovered evidence >>of a gunner's nest. From debris left behind, investigators >>concluded that a gunner was armed with an AK-47 assault rifle and >>rocket-propelled grenades. >> >>About a foot from the gunner's lookout was a hole punched through >>the wall by a 25mm shell. Investigators surmised that the gunman >>fled after that single volley from allied forces. >> >>Damage to the museum's administrative offices was extensive, with >>desks, wiring, water fixtures and chairs hauled out by looters. >>Artifacts, apparently obscured in some instances by the rubble left >>by looters, emerged largely unscathed. >> >>"There is no comparison in the level of destruction seen in the >>museum and that seen in the administrative offices," Bogdanos said. >>"It's absolute wanton destruction in the offices. We didn't see >>anywhere near that destruction in the museum. [People] stole what >>they could use. They left the antiquities." >> >>Investigators, still compiling information about what possibly >>occurred during the chaotic takeover of Baghdad by U.S. and British >>troops, are concluding that little damage occurred to antiquities >>displayed at the museum. Investigators counted 17 display cases out >>of 300 to 400 cases there as destroyed. Many of the items >>apparently were removed before the looting. >> >>In addition, investigators have counted 22 items that were damaged, >>including 11 clay pots on display in corridors. Most of those >>damaged artifacts are restored pieces and can be restored again, >>museum officials told investigators. >> >>The most significant of the damaged pieces was the Golden Harp of >>Ur. But investigators determined that the golden head on the >>damaged antiquity, feared missing, was only a copy. Museum >>officials confirmed to investigators that the original head was >>placed in a storage vault at the Iraqi Central Bank sometime before >>the war. >> >>The inventory was compiled after investigators examined five large >>storage areas in the museum Saturday to check for looting. Each >>room was lined with shelves holding plastic containers filled with >>envelopes of small, less-valuable artifacts, such as individual >>beads or amulets. >> >>There was no apparent sign of forced entry to the storage sites, >>and the doors were locked when investigators arrived. Museum staff >>told investigators they had no keys to the room, so investigators >>remain uncertain how entry was made. >> >>Investigators found that the basement storage area, which held >>thousands of small items not deemed suitable for display, had been >>disturbed in one of the four rooms. They broke through a >>cinder-block barrier to the room to find hundreds of cardboard >>boxes intact and about 90 plastic boxes, containing about 5,000 >>less-valuable items, missing. >> >>A boxful of such items was retrieved about a week ago near Al-Kut, >>investigators said, and it is likely that the intruders are >>attempting to move other such artifacts outside Baghdad. > > > > > > > >-- > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue May 6 15:03:36 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:03:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cant Poetry Mutter In-Reply-To: <3EB6FB23.728628AF@earthlink.net> Message-ID: on 5/5/03 7:00 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote: > P.S. - If good love-making scanned, it would, I think, be boring. > > - Jim Not if there were plenty of metrical variations and couplings full of perfectly rhyming couplets. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 6 15:45:30 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 15:45:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads References: <3EB76F2F.25457.3711EA@localhost> Message-ID: <007601c31408$0def8240$f288fea9@j1c1k6> Here's my last word on the idiotic word-games you play to protect your self-image as a Morally-Superior Debater: I say that your poetry stinks, but that that in no way affects my view of you personally as a poet. I will not further discuss name-calling and the like with you. --Bob G. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue May 6 15:52:29 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 12:52:29 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cant Poetry Mutter References: Message-ID: <3EB8127C.5C55FC0F@earthlink.net> Paul Lake wrote: > > on 5/5/03 7:00 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote: > > > P.S. - If good love-making scanned, it would, I think, be boring. > > > > - Jim > > Not if there were plenty of metrical variations and couplings full of > perfectly rhyming couplets. Oooo. Yes! Near-rhymes for teasing, too. And enjambments. - Jim From marcus at designerglass.com Tue May 6 16:24:03 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:24:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <007601c31408$0def8240$f288fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EB7E1A3.11668.1F639AD@localhost> On 6 May 2003 at 15:45, Bob Grumman wrote: > ... I say that your poetry stinks, but > that that in no way affects my view of you personally as a poet. Once again you're conflating two notions, Bob: the notion of "personally" with the notion of "as a poet". To say that someone's poems stink is indeed to proclaim your view of them "as a poet" -- though not as a person. A person may be morally superior and still write very bad poems; a person may write very good poems and still act in morally reprehensible ways. There is no necessary connection between "good person" and "good poet", any more than there is between "bad person" and "bad taxonomist" -- and to say that someone is a bad taxonomist or bad poet is not to say anything about whether he pays his taxes on time or loves his wife, children, or dog, or helps people in need, or any number of other "good person" things that have nothing to do with his ability as a taxonomist or poet. But to say something about the taxonomy or the poetry is indeed to make a judgment about the quality of the work -- but still not to say anything about the quality of the person. There is simply no necessary connection between the two, and it's silly to claim that there is. It is the bedrock requirement of civil discourse that the participants be willing and able to distinguish their own, and their interlocutors', positions from selves. You seem determined to do just the opposite: to conflate your positions or views with your self -- to hold that any criticism of your position or view is necessarily a personal attack on you as a person. That approach almost guarantees hard feelings, animosity, hostility and lack of civility because not only do you take criticisms of your positions as personal attacks, you also must *mean* any criticism you make of others' positions as personal attacks! Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue May 6 17:07:03 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 17:07:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy In-Reply-To: <116.22a2db82.2be54382@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EB7EBB7.30071.21D9A02@localhost> > Bob, I own a lot books that I hope to read...that I bought because I wanted > to have them at the ready when the spirit moved me. And there are many > works I know more thru the criticism than the texts themselves...but > when reading an article/essay it's nice to know one can easily go to the > shelf, pluck off the title, and root around in the primary work. << For those of you who have books on your shelf that you never intend to read and don't want to keep any more, the Poets's and Writers' League of Greater Cleveland (http://www.pwlgc.com) is looking especially for first edition and/or signed copies of books to sell at their bi-yearly fundraiser. Please send any contributions to: Poets' & Writers' League of Greater Cleveland 12200 Fairhill Road Cleveland, OH 44120, USA Thanks Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue May 6 17:10:11 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 16:10:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] query -- children's poetry Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030506160746.019bc620@mail.ilstu.edu> I'm trying to locate some poems for children about children. Would any of you know of any? From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue May 6 18:15:14 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:15:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] query -- children's poetry Message-ID: <1cd.8f78550.2be98df2@cs.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 4:14:40 PM Central Standard Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > I'm trying to locate some poems for children about children. Would any of > you know of any? > Brats by X. J. Kennedy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chryss at silcom.com Tue May 6 18:17:16 2003 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 15:17:16 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] query -- children's poetry In-Reply-To: <1cd.8f78550.2be98df2@cs.com> Message-ID: In the message on 5/6/03 3:15 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/6/2003 4:14:40 PM Central Standard Time, > gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: >> I'm trying to locate some poems for children about children. Would any of >> you know of any? > > Brats by X. J. Kennedy Along that line, there are The Goops, by Gelett Burgess. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ron.silliman at verizon.net Tue May 6 18:37:39 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 18:37:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The New American Poetry - REMAINDERED Message-ID: <000c01c31420$1dfdb0e0$02fa8044@Dell> The New American Poetry, edited by Donald Allen, is being remaindered. Scholar's Bookshelf has it available for $7.95, $12 below the original price. You will have to put this ridiculous URL onto one line. If you can't do that, go to the website & look it up under Literature/Americans/Modern -- it's on the first screen. http://www.scholarsbookshelf.com/item.asp?userid=&pageid=5&catid=7&subje ctid=99&method=sub&itemid=26699 There are some other good deals available right now as well, Ron http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Tue May 6 19:03:37 2003 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard W. Wilsnack) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 18:03:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? Message-ID: <3.0.32.20030506180337.0150790c@medicine.nodak.edu> At 02:14 PM 5/6/03 -0400, Halvard Johnson wrote: >But what the hell, how many Americans (Norteamericanos or any other kind) >could tell us who America (or the Americas) is named after? > >Hal El chofer no carga dinero Actually, I once owned an 18th-century translation of Amerigo Vespucci's "accounts" of his travels in the New World, but it got lost in the Flood of 1997. I wonder if anyone antedated him as a master of fabricating apparently factual accounts. Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From wjbat at conncoll.edu Tue May 6 19:18:28 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:18:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030506191828.019205@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Does anybody have the text of "Glib," by William Matthews? I've just gone through my whole Bill-shelf and can't find it. thanks, Wendy ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu The wall between where we are? and the Self is called the mind. --S. J. Bharat From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 6 19:27:51 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:27:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] query -- children's poetry References: <1cd.8f78550.2be98df2@cs.com> Message-ID: <002a01c31427$1d720e80$ed7bfea9@j1c1k6> I'm trying to locate some poems for children about children. Would any of you know of any? I just got one called MATHEMATICKLES, by Betsy Franco. Simon & Schuster. Officially out in June. I believe it is the first collection of mathematical poetry for children ever published! Betsy gives my math poetry credit for inspiring her book, but she's certainly gone in a lot of interesting directions with whatever she got from me, and I expect to use as much from her book as she used of what I've done in mathematical poetry. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 6 19:30:04 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:30:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] query -- children's poetry References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030506160746.019bc620@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <003401c31427$6d525c20$ed7bfea9@j1c1k6> > I'm trying to locate some poems for children about children. Would any of > you know of any? Oops, sorry--I just got the book I posted about and it was so much on my mind, I didn't fully read your (interesting) request. So consider my post just an announcement of a book of poetry for children. --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue May 6 20:35:30 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 19:35:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Glib query In-Reply-To: <20030506191828.019205@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: Weird. Not on my Bill-shelf, either. Yet I'm sure I've read such a poem. . . . ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > From: Wendy Battin > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 19:18:28 -0400 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] query > > Does anybody have the text of "Glib," by William Matthews? I've just > gone through my whole Bill-shelf and can't find it. > > thanks, > Wendy > From chris at chrislott.org Tue May 6 20:57:33 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:57:33 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads References: <3EB76F2F.25457.3711EA@localhost> <007601c31408$0def8240$f288fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <003201c31433$a8df4d00$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Tuesday, May 06, 2003 11:45 AM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > Here's my last word on the idiotic word-games you play to protect your > self-image as a Morally-Superior Debater: I say that your poetry > stinks, but that that in no way affects my view of you personally as > a poet. Does this mean you are offended as a taxonomist or a person when Marcus says your taxonomy is lacking? Isn't the parallel statement: I say that your poetry stinks, but that in no way affects my view of you as a person... ? c From chris at chrislott.org Tue May 6 20:59:26 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:59:26 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The New American Poetry - REMAINDERED References: <000c01c31420$1dfdb0e0$02fa8044@Dell> Message-ID: <004201c31433$ebbcea60$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:37 PM, Ron spake thusly: > The New American Poetry, edited by Donald Allen, is being remaindered. > > Scholar's Bookshelf has it available for $7.95, $12 below the original > price. > > > You will have to put this ridiculous URL onto one line. Or you could go to: http://makeashorterlink.com/?N10821874 c From chris at chrislott.org Tue May 6 20:58:19 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 16:58:19 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads References: <3EB7E1A3.11668.1F639AD@localhost> Message-ID: <003801c31433$c443c850$6401a8c0@TRS80> > Once again you're conflating two notions, Bob You have to give me credit that my query regarding this statement was much shorter :) c From dicka at optonline.net Tue May 6 21:16:30 2003 From: dicka at optonline.net (Richard Attanasio) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 21:16:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "ever-refreshing Denise Duhamel" In-Reply-To: <200305061601.h46G14ST006322@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <88BCE8A0-8029-11D7-A61E-000393DE187A@optonline.net> David Graham referred to:"ever-refreshing Denise Duhamel" David, what exactly did you find "refreshing" in this? To me it feels bathetic and reveling in guilt-mongering. And, regarding the "quote" of John Wayne, specious. Any realistic view of American Indian society must conclude that they were no worse nor better than their fellow-humans - in their relationships with each other, or the earth. Richard She crawls into the hearts of the cruelest men and writes about what it is like to be them, while I mostly curl in the bellies of the shattered women. There's no evidence that one approach is better than the other. (snip) I read on the web that John Wayne actually said, "I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 977 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue May 6 21:31:27 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 20:31:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "ever-refreshing Denise Duhamel" In-Reply-To: <88BCE8A0-8029-11D7-A61E-000393DE187A@optonline.net> Message-ID: > David Graham referred to:"ever-refreshing Denise Duhamel" > > David, what exactly did you find "refreshing" in this? Duhamel's seldom ponderous, for one thing. Given the nature of Ai's poetry, I confess I'm refreshed by, for example, the goofy insouciance of: There is a chimp named Ai who can count to five. There's a poet named Ai whose selected poems Vice just won the National Book Award. The name "Ai" is pronounced "I" so that whenever I talk about the poet Ai such as I'm teaching Ai's poems again this semester it sounds like I'm teaching my own poems or when I say I love Ai's work it sounds as if I'm saying I love my own poems but have poor grammar. But your sense of humor may get different mileage and all that. . . . ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 6 21:49:26 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 21:49:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads References: <3EB76F2F.25457.3711EA@localhost> <007601c31408$0def8240$f288fea9@j1c1k6> <003201c31433$a8df4d00$6401a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <010c01c3143a$e571b940$ed7bfea9@j1c1k6> > > Here's my last word on the idiotic word-games you play to protect your > > self-image as a Morally-Superior Debater: I say that your poetry > > stinks, but that that in no way affects my view of you personally as > > a poet. > Does this mean you are offended as a taxonomist or a person when Marcus says > your taxonomy is lacking? Isn't the parallel statement: I say that your > poetry stinks, but that in no way affects my view of you as a person... ? > > c Can't answer because for once I'm going to mean it when I say I've said my last word. --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue May 6 22:15:11 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:15:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? Message-ID: <126.28d3fc45.2be9c62f@cs.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 1:19:17 PM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > { And here's a tidbit that probably supports Bruce Wexler's nay-saying > { article: years ago I went to a Halloween party dressed as Walt > Whitman, > { whitened beard and all. I even had a butterfly taped to my finger, > and a > { copy of *Leaves of Grass* under my arm. Most other party-goers > thought I > { was Kenny Rogers--and this was an English Department party. . > Maybe you should have sung that famous Rogers hit, "Laddie." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daisyf1 at juno.com Tue May 6 22:15:20 2003 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:15:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: query--children's poetry Message-ID: <20030506.221522.-238073.1.daisyf1@juno.com> Gabe-- When I was a kid I adored "Now We Are Six" (or "Now I am Six"?) and the other A.A. Milne poetry book for kids. And I think Christina Rossetti's nursery rhymes are fascinating, but only discovered them last year so I'm not sure how they'd seem to a kid... Daisy From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue May 6 22:19:36 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:19:36 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? Message-ID: <1cb.9165b29.2be9c738@cs.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 6:05:21 PM Central Standard Time, rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu writes: > At 02:14 PM 5/6/03 -0400, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >But what the hell, how many Americans (Norteamericanos or any other kind) > >could tell us who America (or the Americas) is named after? > > > >Hal I thought it was named for Dana Gioia. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sellwein at hotmail.com Tue May 6 22:21:12 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 22:21:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? Message-ID: Rotflol... :o) In a message dated 5/6/2003 1:19:17 PM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > { And here's a tidbit that probably supports Bruce Wexler's nay-saying > { article: years ago I went to a Halloween party dressed as Walt > Whitman, > { whitened beard and all. I even had a butterfly taped to my finger, > and a > { copy of *Leaves of Grass* under my arm. Most other party-goers > thought I > { was Kenny Rogers--and this was an English Department party. . > Maybe you should have sung that famous Rogers hit, "Laddie." _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From halvard at earthlink.net Tue May 6 22:56:46 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 22:56:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? In-Reply-To: <126.28d3fc45.2be9c62f@cs.com> Message-ID: Not only am I misquoted here, but I've never ever had a butterfly taped to my finger or any other part of my body. Hal "The highest responsibility of the artist is to hide beauty." --R. H. Blyth Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard In a message dated 5/6/2003 1:19:17 PM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: { And here's a tidbit that probably supports Bruce Wexler's nay-saying { article: years ago I went to a Halloween party dressed as Walt Whitman, { whitened beard and all. I even had a butterfly taped to my finger, and a { copy of *Leaves of Grass* under my arm. Most other party-goers thought I { was Kenny Rogers--and this was an English Department party. . Maybe you should have sung that famous Rogers hit, "Laddie." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed May 7 00:06:20 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 00:06:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? Message-ID: <1de.868bead.2be9e03c@cs.com> In a message dated 5/6/2003 10:06:42 PM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > Not only am I misquoted here, but I've never ever had > a butterfly taped to my finger or any other part of my body. > > Hal "The highest responsibility of the artist > is to hide beauty." > --R. H. Blyth > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > > >> In a message dated 5/6/2003 1:19:17 PM Central Standard Time, >> halvard at earthlink.net writes: >> >> >>> >>> { And here's a tidbit that probably supports Bruce Wexler's nay-saying >>> { article: years ago I went to a Halloween party dressed as Walt >>> Whitman, >>> { whitened beard and all. I even had a butterfly taped to my finger, >>> and a >>> { copy of *Leaves of Grass* under my arm. Most other party-goers >>> thought I >>> { was Kenny Rogers--and this was an English Department party. . >>> >> Maybe you should have sung that famous Rogers hit, "Laddie." > Hal, like others on this list, is being disingenuous here. I once saw him at a party with a butterfly taped to his firm masculine colter. He was singing "Lucille" too. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Wed May 7 07:46:54 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 07:46:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Is Dead. Does Anybody Really Care? In-Reply-To: <126.28d3fc45.2be9c62f@cs.com> Message-ID: <3EB8B9EE.12881.150B1E@localhost> > halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > { And here's a tidbit that probably supports Bruce Wexler's nay-saying > > { article: years ago I went to a Halloween party dressed as Walt Whitman, > > { whitened beard and all. I even had a butterfly taped to my finger, and a > > { copy of *Leaves of Grass* under my arm. Most other party-goers thought I > > { was Kenny Rogers--and this was an English Department party. . . << That's because you were gambling with the guy dressed as Bill Bennett. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From wjbat at conncoll.edu Wed May 7 07:46:38 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 07:46:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Glib query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030507074638.020530@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> David Graham wrote: >Weird. Not on my Bill-shelf, either. Yet I'm sure I've read such a poem. . >. . Thanks for looking, David. It must be one of the many that never made it into a collection. Wendy ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu From marcus at designerglass.com Wed May 7 08:13:53 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 08:13:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <003201c31433$a8df4d00$6401a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <3EB8C041.16442.2DBE95@localhost> Bob Grumman: > > Here's my last word on the idiotic word-games you play to protect your > > self-image as a Morally-Superior Debater: I say that your poetry > > stinks, but that that in no way affects my view of you personally as > > a poet. Chris Lott: > Does this mean you are offended as a taxonomist or a person when Marcus says > your taxonomy is lacking? Isn't the parallel statement: I say that your > poetry stinks, but that in no way affects my view of you as a person... ? Just so. My disagreement with Bob was about his claim that his work is scientific and objective. Not only have I never said, or even implied, that Bob is somehow diminished as a person for being wrong about such claims, I've explicitly stated that I don't view him as diminished as a person because I distinguish his personal character and characteristics from whether I agree with him on any given issue. I've posted Bob's website elsewhere when the issue of categorization of poetry has come up with the comment that, aside from his specious claim to scientific accuracy and objectivity, Bob's work has some merit, and is worth consideration. Being reasonable entails being willing to put aside consideration of one's interlocutor's personal character or characteristics in order to address the merits of the issues that arise. There's no reason that one must dislike the person because one dislikes the person's poetry, or political opinion, and the like -- and no reason one must like those with whom one agrees. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed May 7 10:24:54 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 09:24:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems Message-ID: 'Tis the (academic) season for gathering summer book recommendations. . . . I'm wondering if anyone has yet seen David Lehman's new anthology, *Great American Prose Poems*? It just appeared on my radar, and sounds like a must-have. The table of contents, if you're interested: http://www.simonsays.com/excerpt.cfm?isbn=0743243501&type=31 And you can read Edward Hirsch's note on the book at the Washington Post, along with a sample Russell Edson poem: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3058-2003May1.html I hope Lehman's doing a companion volume of international stuff, too. My copy of the marvelous old Michael Benedickt anthology has nearly disintegrated with age. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From halvard at earthlink.net Wed May 7 10:18:43 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 10:18:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For American (and North American) prose poems, one might also be aware of *The Party Train* (ed. Robt. Alexander, Mark Vinz, and C.W. Truesdale: New Rivers Press, 1996). For international (i.e. mostly North American), *The Best of the Prose Poem* (ed. Peter Johnson: Buffalo: White Pine Press, 2000). Hal El chofer no carga dinero Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems { { { 'Tis the (academic) season for gathering summer book recommendations. . . . { { I'm wondering if anyone has yet seen David Lehman's new anthology, *Great { American Prose Poems*? It just appeared on my radar, and sounds like a { must-have. { { The table of contents, if you're interested: { { http://www.simonsays.com/excerpt.cfm?isbn=0743243501&type=31 { { And you can read Edward Hirsch's note on the book at the Washington Post, { along with a sample Russell Edson poem: { { http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3058-2003May1.html { { I hope Lehman's doing a companion volume of international stuff, too. My { copy of the marvelous old Michael Benedickt anthology has nearly { disintegrated with age. { { ==================================================== { David Graham { grahamd at ripon.edu { Home Page: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html { Poetry Library: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html { ==================================================== { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Wed May 7 10:55:39 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 10:55:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems Message-ID: <0342BC35.2C9B9DB2.0B0E6811@aol.com> In just a couple of weeks, Tupelo Press (www.tupleopress.org) will be releasing an extraordinary anthology of prose poems: No Boundaries: Prose Poems by 24 American Poets. Edited by Ray Gonzalez, this is a generous compilation -- 12 poems by each of the contributing poets (144 poems), present day heroes and the emerging voices -- including Peter Johnson, Robert Bly, Russell Edson, Campbell McGrath, Nin Andrews, Simic, Nye, Gerstler, Bradley, Koncel and Boyka-Kluge. Anybody want a review copy, please let me know. Jeffrey Levine In a message dated 5/7/2003 9:18:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > > For American (and North American) prose poems, one might > also be aware of *The Party Train* (ed. Robt. Alexander, > Mark Vinz, and C.W. Truesdale: New Rivers Press, 1996). > > For international (i.e. mostly North American), *The Best of > the Prose Poem* (ed. Peter Johnson: Buffalo: White Pine > Press, 2000). > > Hal El chofer no carga dinero > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > { Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems > { > { > { 'Tis the (academic) season for gathering summer book recommendations. . . . > { > { I'm wondering if anyone has yet seen David Lehman's new anthology, *Great > { American Prose Poems*? It just appeared on my radar, and sounds like a > { must-have. > { > { The table of contents, if you're interested: > { > { http://www.simonsays.com/excerpt.cfm?isbn=0743243501&type=31 > { > { And you can read Edward Hirsch's note on the book at the Washington Post, > { along with a sample Russell Edson poem: > { > { http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3058-2003May1.html > { > { I hope Lehman's doing a companion volume of international stuff, too. My > { copy of the marvelous old Michael Benedickt anthology > has nearly > { disintegrated with age. > { > { ==================================================== > { David Graham > { grahamd at ripon.edu > { Home Page: > { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > { Poetry Library: > { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > { ==================================================== > { > { > { _______________________________________________ > { New-Poetry mailing list > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Wed May 7 11:04:30 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 11:04:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems - oops Message-ID: <35F3B641.3E366997.0B0E6811@aol.com> Make that 10 poems by each of 24 poets in No Boudaries. That's 240 poems in the Tupelo Press anthology. Very interesting differece, by the way, between Lehman's approach and ours. Lehman's work is a history, an overview. Lots of the no longer living (Poe, Apollinaire, etc.). Our No Boundaries consists only of contemporary American prose poets -- poets wholly devoted to the form. I think it's terrific, the attention this form is getting. Jeffrey Levine In a message dated 5/7/2003 9:55:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, FanwoodJEL writes: > > > In just a couple of weeks, Tupelo Press (www.tupleopress.org) will be releasing an extraordinary anthology of prose poems: No Boundaries: Prose Poems by 24 American Poets. Edited by Ray Gonzalez, this is a generous compilation -- 12 poems by each of the contributing poets (144 poems), present day heroes and the emerging voices -- including Peter Johnson, Robert Bly, Russell Edson, Campbell McGrath, Nin Andrews, Simic, Nye, Gerstler, Bradley, Koncel and Boyka-Kluge. Anybody want a review copy, please let me know. > > Jeffrey Levine > > In a message dated 5/7/2003 9:18:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > > > > > > For American (and North American) prose poems, one might > > also be aware of *The Party Train* (ed. Robt. Alexander, > > Mark Vinz, and C.W. Truesdale: New Rivers Press, 1996). > > > > For international (i.e. mostly North American), *The Best of > > the Prose Poem* (ed. Peter Johnson: Buffalo: White Pine > > Press, 2000). > > > > Hal El chofer no carga dinero > > > > Halvard Johnson > > =============== > > email: halvard at earthlink.net > > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > > > > { Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems > > { > > { > > { 'Tis the (academic) season for gathering summer book recommendations. . . . > > { > > { I'm wondering if anyone has yet seen David Lehman's new anthology, *Great > > { American Prose Poems*? It just appeared on my radar, and sounds like a > > { must-have. > > { > > { The table of contents, if you're interested: > > { > > { http://www.simonsays.com/excerpt.cfm?isbn=0743243501&type=31 > > { > > { And you can read Edward Hirsch's note on the book at the Washington Post, > > { along with a sample Russell Edson poem: > > { > > { http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3058-2003May1.html > > { > > { I hope Lehman's doing a companion volume of international stuff, too. My > > { copy of the marvelous old Michael Benedickt > anthology > > has nearly > > { disintegrated with age. > > { > > { ==================================================== > > { David Graham > > { grahamd at ripon.edu > > { Home Page: > > { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > { Poetry Library: > > { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > { ==================================================== > > { > > { > > { _______________________________________________ > > { New-Poetry mailing list > > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed May 7 11:27:53 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 10:27:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: query--children's poetry In-Reply-To: <20030506.221522.-238073.1.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030507101656.017b9e48@mail.ilstu.edu> Thanks for this, Daisy. At 10:15 PM 5/6/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Gabe-- >When I was a kid I adored "Now We Are Six" (or "Now I am Six"?) and the >other A.A. Milne poetry book for kids. >And I think Christina Rossetti's nursery rhymes are fascinating, but only >discovered them last year so I'm not sure how they'd seem to a kid... >Daisy >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Wed May 7 11:14:58 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 11:14:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prose poems by others: two by William Matthews, "Talk" & "Attention, Everyone" Message-ID: Talk The body is never silent. Aristotle said that we can't hear the music of the spheres because it is the first thing that we hear, blood at the ear. Also the body is brewing its fluids. It is braiding the rope of food that moors us to the dead. Because it sniffles and farts, we love the unpre- dictable. Because breath goes in and out, there are two of each of us and they distrust each other. The body's reassuring slurps and creaks are like a dial tone: we can always call up the universe. And so we are always talking. My body and I sit up late, telling each other our troubles. And when two bodies are near each other, they begin talking in body- sonar. The art of conversation is not dead! Still, for long periods, it is comatose. For example, suppose my body doesn't get near enough to yours for a long time. It is disconsolate. Normally it talks to me all night: listening is how I sleep. Now it is truculent. It wants to speak directly to your body. The next voice you hear will be my body's. It sounds the same way blood sounds at your ear. It is saying *Ssshhh*, now that we, at last, are silent. Attention, Everyone Gloom is the enemy, even to the end. The parodies of self-knowl- edge were embossed by Gloom inside our eyelids, and the abrasion makes us weep, for no reason, like a new bride disconsolate in the nightgown she had sewn so carefully. The dog comes back from the fields, lumpy with burrs. I put down my pen and pull them out; it is a care I have taught him to expect. I've always said it would be difficult. I'm declaring a new regime. Its flag is woven loam. Its motto is: *Love is worth even its own disasters*. Its totem is the worm. We eat our way through grief and make it richer. We don't blunt ourselves against stones--their borders go all the way through. We go around them. In my new regime Gloom dances by itself, like a sad poet. Also I will be sending out some letters: Dear Friends, Please come to the party for my new life. The dog will meet you at the road, barking, running stiff-legged circles. Pluck one of his burrs and follow him here. I've got lots of good wine, I'm in love, my new poems are better than my old poems. It's been too long since we started over. The new regime will start when you lift your eyes from this page. Here it comes. --William Matthews in *The Best of the Prose Poem: An International Journal* [Buffalo: White Pine Press, 2000] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed May 7 15:27:03 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 15:27:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Dickinson's slant rhymes Message-ID: <19f.14968e28.2beab807@cs.com> From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed May 7 18:05:06 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 17:05:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030507103600.01730d48@mail.ilstu.edu> I've read the anthology. It's actually a great read. In fact, IT'S THE BEST ANTHOLOGY I'VE SEEN IN MY LIFE. *I AM NOT JOKING. I AM YELLING THIS!* I think this anthology will be known as the central anthology of our age. Perhaps of the entire 21st Century. Although it's too early to tell that. When reading it I thought, This anthology is the best read I have ever had in my life. It will inform my writing for the rest of my life until I die. Buy this anthology. It is the best. At 09:24 AM 5/7/2003 -0500, David Graham wrote: >'Tis the (academic) season for gathering summer book recommendations. . . . > >I'm wondering if anyone has yet seen David Lehman's new anthology, *Great >American Prose Poems*? It just appeared on my radar, and sounds like a >must-have. > >The table of contents, if you're interested: > >http://www.simonsays.com/excerpt.cfm?isbn=0743243501&type=31 > >And you can read Edward Hirsch's note on the book at the Washington Post, >along with a sample Russell Edson poem: > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3058-2003May1.html > >I hope Lehman's doing a companion volume of international stuff, too. My >copy of the marvelous old Michael Benedickt anthology has nearly >disintegrated with age. > >==================================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >==================================================== > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Assistant Professor of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed May 7 19:37:43 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 16:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Cant Poetry Mutter Message-ID: <20030507233743.E0E3F432E@sitemail.everyone.net> J for James, I like "Cant Poetry Mutter". I notice it is unsigned. It must be your work. In [Cafe-Blue], there would be a "Gazebo" on the subject line to let readers know it was penned by the sender. Bob Poetry Catamaran "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" Robert R. Cobb AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. http://rrcobb.tripod.com --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: >Cant Poetry Mutter > > Sonny, I knew Jack Kerouac, > and you're no Jack Kerouac. > >In my day we had none >of those stinking MFA programs. >We wrote our poetry on barstools >turning round in circles or in trains rolling >off the edge of the world. We had to make >our own paper, too. From the lint >collected from our navels or by unraveling >the butts collected along the sidewalk. >There was no Google, the libraries >were fucking chockfull of books, >and you had read ?em all, >and none of ?em had any pictures. >Our words weren't processed like bad cheese. >And le?me tell you, when we gave readings >there were always full houses?it was like Paternak >in the old Soviet Union, if you lost your place >in the poem, the audience could finish the line. >The clapping rose like a thousand pigeons wings >over a loaf of day-old bread in the park. >And the people bought our books. >We'd sign title pages till our hands cramped. >Of course we wrote about real things then >and our lines could really sing. >We didn't have scanners?our lines scanned. >Our rhythms were like making love >fierce and with staying power, until the last >line rose like a lover coming. For a poet >even sleep is work, but we had day jobs as well, >and wouldn't be caught dead inside ivy-covered walls >unless it was an honest-to-god state penitentiary. >You see, we wrote for keeps. For that >small print on translucent pages in thick anthologies. >Believe me, Shakespeare and Milton >were watching their backs. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 7 20:45:18 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 20:45:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems Message-ID: <163.1fff873f.2beb029e@aol.com> In a message dated 5/7/03 10:26:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > David Lehman's new anthology, *Great > American Prose Poems*? It just appeared on my radar, and sounds like a > must-have. I'll look for it. _Models of the Universe_ is great anthology with more of a historical & international perspective. Americans were late-adopters when it came to the prose poem. In the anthoogy Modern French Poets, Wallace Fowlie says of Max Jacob: "In his _Le Cornet ? d?s_ (1917) he has left some of the finest prose poems in the language, and in the preface of the book, a significant theory of the form." If anyone has translated that preface, I'd like to know how to get hold of it. Another smaller (& older) anthology is around here someplace, "Epiphanies" in the title, if I'm not misremembering. Finnegan From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu May 8 01:59:09 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 00:59:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] from a friend of Joseph Brodsky Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030508005618.01ac7690@mail.ilstu.edu> Russian-born US citizen and friend of Brodsky and Mikhail Baryshnikov bemoans the death of democracy and the rise of Soviet-style politics in the US since 911. http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030519&s=khrushcheva From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 8 05:58:07 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 05:58:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030507103600.01730d48@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <008001c31548$53dfa460$b769fea9@j1c1k6> > I've read the anthology. It's actually a great read. In fact, IT'S THE > BEST ANTHOLOGY I'VE SEEN IN MY LIFE. *I AM NOT JOKING. I AM YELLING THIS!* > > I think this anthology will be known as the central anthology of our age. Well, from its table of contents, it looks like it might be not bad, considering who its editor and publishers are. Few surprises until Lehman gets to stuff by writers born after 1960. The idea that a collection of short prose pieces could be a superior read to, say, the Collected Poems of Wallace Stevens, is ludicrous--or, if we're talking about anthologies only, superior to even standard anthologies of poetry. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Thu May 8 07:41:56 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 07:41:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dickinson's slant rhymes In-Reply-To: <19f.14968e28.2beab807@cs.com> Message-ID: <3EBA0A44.28363.ADDFC@localhost> On 7 May 2003 at 15:27, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > From a sophomore American lit final: > slant rhyme--Two words that sound alike but don't really rhyme. Dickinson > does this in her poems. I think she once used the words "Pearl" and "Harbor" > as if they rhymed. From chris at chrislott.org Thu May 8 11:49:43 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 07:49:43 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030507103600.01730d48@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <007701c31579$751d5ab0$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Wednesday, May 07, 2003 2:05 PM, Gabriel Gudding spake thusly: > I've read the anthology. It's actually a great read. In fact, IT'S > THE BEST ANTHOLOGY I'VE SEEN IN MY LIFE. *I AM NOT JOKING. I AM > YELLING THIS!* Sounds like a must-read. What pages are your poems on? c From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu May 8 12:02:03 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 11:02:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poem Message-ID: Catching up with my big stack of accumulated journals, I discover that David Lehman's introduction to his new prose poem anthology is printed in the March/April *APR*. The intro makes me all the more eager to see the book, and reminds me how much I like Lehman's own critical prose. Lehman's essay gives a brief & fine historical summary of the genre, along with one of the better discussions I've seen of its inherently problematic nature. Quoting Charles Simic: "The prose poem is the result of two contradictory impulses, prose and poetry, and therefore cannot exist, but it does." I learn in this article that Lehman did his PhD dissertation on the prose poem, focusing on Oscar Wilde, Gertrude Stein, W.H. Auden, and John Ashbery. Here's a snippet in which Lehman is discussing Ashbery's "A Nice Presentation": "The sentences embody reversal and hesitation; they suggest a kind of logic but mostly they reveal that logic is an illusion. They enact a paradox: that one can be in perpetual motion while remaining stationary, as the mind of a perennial fence-sitter may race from one thought to the next." That seems to hit the nail on the head, not just about this poem but about the enduring appeal and irritation I find in Ashbery more generally. There is both charm and tedium implied, I'd say, in "a perennial fence-sitter [whose mind] may race from one thought to the next." At least that's how I take Ashbery: Lehman & others find more charm than tedium, while for me it's often vice versa. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Thu May 8 15:34:28 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 12:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Death of Literary Theory? Message-ID: <20030508193428.26672.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/may03/notes.htm From The New Criterion: The end of the line? In Edgar Allan Poe?s story ?The Purloined Letter,? the trick is that the incriminating letter is not hidden but has been sitting in plain sight all along. The moral is that what is most obvious is sometimes easiest to overlook, as the vain and frantic efforts of the Prefect of the Parisian Police to recover the missing document attest. Anyone who has had the misfortune to peek into the library of deconstructivist literature knows that Poe?s story is a favorite object of lucubration. The two Jacques, Derrida and Lacan, both devoted many impenetrable pages to the story, as have many of their epigoni. We thought of Poe?s classic story recently when alerted by a friend to The New York Times?s account of a conference about literary theory sponsored by Critical Inquiry, a hermetic quarterly that has long been home to deconstructionists, post-structuralists, Lacanian-psychoanalysts, and other acolytes of academic tergiversation. It was, apparently, a somber convocation. The title of the Times?s story??The Latest Theory Is That Theory Doesn?t Matter??captured the tone. More than five hundred academic aspirants crowded into a lecture hall at the University of Chicago on April 11 to witness an exchange among a quire of such faded luminaries as Stanley Fish, Fredric Jameson, and Homi Bhabha. The war in Iraq apparently received much anguished attention. But theory?the ostensible subject of the conference?garnered only afterthoughts. Professor Bhabha, a ?post-colonialist? and one of the most preposterous figures on the current academic scene, wearily objected that theory still mattered, that there are ?poems that actually draw together people in acts of resistance.? But according to the Times, the dominant note was sounded by Sander L. Gilman, a professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago: I think one must be careful in assuming that intellectuals have some kind of insight. In fact, if the track record of intellectuals is any indication, not only have intellectuals been wrong almost all of the time, but they have been wrong in corrosive and destructive ways. What?s next? The discovery that the earth is round? That water is wet? We won?t say ?We told you so,? but, well, we did. The friend who told us about the Times?s story said ?It is practically a concession speech to The New Criterion.? We won?t go that far. Doubtless Professor Gilman and his colleagues would be horrified at the thought. But there is something to the idea: for more than twenty years now, The New Criterion has been dilating on the nullity of literary so-called theory and the destructive commitment to adolescent leftism that it involves. Naturally, we have been routinely abominated for our pains. It is pleasant, therefore, to find, if not a concession, then at least a tacit acknowledgment that the humanities have taken a wrong turn. So many trendy academics have weighed in on ?The Purloined Letter? that it is a pity that they didn?t take the story?s epigraph more to heart: Nil sapientiae odiosius acumine nimio: ?Nothing is more hateful to wisdom than excessive cleverness.? Jeff Newberry____________________________ "Expose postmodernism for what it is--a cheap academic parlor trick."*Life's Little Deconstruction Book* by Andrew Boyd --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu May 8 18:17:23 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 17:17:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems In-Reply-To: <007701c31579$751d5ab0$6401a8c0@TRS80> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030507103600.01730d48@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030508171611.0174e648@mail.ilstu.edu> <> pages 285-290. And the rest of the anthology's pretty good too. :) From halvard at earthlink.net Thu May 8 18:53:28 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 18:53:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eristics, Inc. Message-ID: Here's a wonderful book review from this ayem's NYT. I love Adam Nicolson's description of Lancelot Andrewes: "The man was a library, the repository of 16 centuries of Christian culture, he could speak 15 modern languages and 6 ancient, but the heart and bulk of his existence was his sense of himself as a worm." http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/08/books/08MASL.html Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Fri May 9 12:37:12 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 12:37:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "My Angie Dickinson" In-Reply-To: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com> References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com> Message-ID: <1052498232.3ebbd938ef0fd@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> A strange, beautiful and true poem in process, "My Angie Dickinson," has appeared at www.mainstreampoetry.com . I thought you'd all wanna know about it. This, in addition to the site's usual pleasures & pains. -m. From JforJames at aol.com Fri May 9 12:57:21 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 12:57:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Death of Literary Theory? Message-ID: Jeff, serendipitously this quote hit my inbox shortly after the report of that theories conference... Our absurdity warrants neither that much distress nor that much defiance. At the risk of falling into romanticism by a different route, I would argue that absurdity is one of the most human things about us: a manifestation of our most advanced and interesting characteristics. Thomas Nagel --Mortal Questions From mbyrne at risd.edu Fri May 9 13:21:06 2003 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 13:21:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RISD SPRING POETRY 5 Message-ID: GABRIEL GUDDING will be the final reader in the RISD SPRING POETRY series, Carr Haus (corner of Waterman and Benefit in Providence), 7pm Tuesday May 13th. From cc at opus0.com Fri May 9 16:20:53 2003 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:20:53 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: The Death of Literary Theory? In-Reply-To: <200305091600.h49G03ST015868@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > From: Jeff Newberry > http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/may03/notes.htm From The > New Criterion: The end of the line? > In Edgar Allan Poe?s story ?The Purloined Letter,? ... > It is pleasant, therefore, to find, if not a concession, then at least > a tacit acknowledgment that the humanities have taken a wrong > turn. So many trendy academics have weighed in on ?The Purloined > Letter? that it is a pity that they didn?t take the story?s > epigraph more to heart: Nil sapientiae odiosius acumine nimio: > ?Nothing is more hateful to wisdom than excessive cleverness.? > Jeff Newberry____________________________ "Expose postmodernism > for what it is--a cheap academic parlor trick."*Life's Little > Deconstruction Book* by Andrew Boyd Jeff, I don't mind responding since my degree was in semiotics, (which gives me the license to respond to anything...haha) and I have some familiarity with the body of criticism this article attacks. In my opinion, the "wrong turn" started with Roland Barthes' essay S/Z in which Barthes attempts to make literary criticism (of Balzac's _Sarrasine_) into a new work of art (see: http://www.thecore.nus.edu.sg/landow/cpace/theory/sz/szov.html for some interesting essays). He also makes the "readerly" text into the "writerly" text, giving responsibility for meaning-making to the reader instead of the writer: the reader becomes the writer. This was revolutionary. But it also became confusing. Because the sort of artist one can be in criticism is always subservient to the text as imagination manifest. In practice, criticism is a kind of impotence--in that it can only respond, not generate. (Is there a difference between response and generation? Maybe response = 1 text:1 text; generation = n texts:1 text.) Deconstructivism, I believe, was born (despite low sperm count) in the concept of the writerly text. And a lot of intellectual energy was caught up in the trap of making creative critical works. Because it was impotent but intent on creating the New, deconstructivism could only shred a text (new or old, trashy or sublime), tearing it line from line. In the process, a lot of light was shed on the structure of the text as a node in the fabric of culture. But what was left, after all the thinking about thinking, was a lot of pieces on the ground. But of course, people will go on writing criticism. ps. Who wrote the New Criterion article? pps. Postmodernism (whatever that is), isn't necessarily cheap (cheap compared to what?), isn't performed in parlors (because parlors are not modern, much less post-), and it isn't a trick (any more than any system based on having one thing stand for another, id est, all commuication systems). In the beginning and the end, it probably is academic in every sense. From sellwein at hotmail.com Fri May 9 16:22:10 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Fri, 09 May 2003 16:22:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] announcement - Colony Cafe Message-ID: Sharmagne Leland-St. John and I will be reading - June 16th @ The Colony Cafe, Woodstock, NY on June 16th. We will be doing a two week tour in various cafes & libraries, ending in NYC June 30th. Hope some of you will be able to attend. - Deborah June 16th, 2003: 1) Deborah Russell is an artist/poet with a passion for Keats and Yeats, romantic poetry and the Shakespearian sonnet form. Russell is a Haiku haijin and appreciates Issa, Shiki, Basho and contemporaries such as James Hackett, Dr. Bruce Ross, Lee Gurga, Mitsugu Abe, Susumu Takiguchi. Her poetry and short stories have been published in Tapestry, the arts section of News International in Pakistan, Scotland Poetry, New Zealand Poetry, World Haiku Review, Gunpowder River Poetry, Heron's Nest, Amaze Cinquain Journal, Haiku Hut, quillandparchment.com, Arcanum, Verge (art zine) and numerous other publications including poetry anthologies with two publications by the South African Literary Association. Her work has also been published in India, Japan, Australia, Germany, and China. Several of her poems have been translated into French, Afrikaans, Xhosa, Japanese, Arabic, Punjabi, Urdu, German, Korean, Chinese, Italian. She occasionally reads in Silver Spring, Baltimore, and Washington DC. In September, 2002, Russell toured Japan with the World Haiku Club on the Basho Journey that was filmed by NHK, in a two part documentary for public television and attended the World Haiku Festival in Akita. 2) Sharmagne Leland-St. John (Native American poet, lyricist) - Sharmagne has performed in concert playing various stringed instruments. Last year she co-wrote a screenplay based on the novel Grass Dancer which was in the finals for the Sundance Film Institutes Screenwriter's lab. Sharmagne publishes the popular, on line e-zine, Quill and Parchment.com, and has been published in Lummox Journal, The Blue Mouse, and many other poetry journals. Her poem "I Will Dance For You" was Editor's Choice in an anthology called An Eternity of Bliss and was also recorded on a three disc CD set, "The Sound of Poetry." "I Said Coffee" was published at "e This!," Lummox, and Blue Winter Mouse. She was invited to read "Promised Land" for a special United Nations poetry week and is published at their website. She has written songs set to music by Peter Yarrow, Hedge Capers, Peter Walker, and other well-known song writers. She has performed either solo or with her band of poets, "Poetry in Motion," at Bukowski's in Vancouver, Canada, The Rapp Saloon in Santa Monica, California, the poetry Guild in England, and The Library Fund Raiser in Woodstock. She has published a book of poetry called Unsung Songs. *********************** Every Monday Night "Forever" Colony: "Special Guests" at the Colony Cafe - Monday Night Open Mic Features read at approximately 8:45pm. Open mic prior and following the features. Poetry/Prose/Performance: Colony Cafe 22 Rock City Road Woodstock, NY (845)679-5342 $3 cover ************************* Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From cc at opus0.com Fri May 9 16:52:21 2003 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 13:52:21 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1502 - 3 msgs In-Reply-To: <200305091600.h49G03ST015868@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > From: Gabriel Gudding > <> > pages 285-290. And the rest of the anthology's pretty good too. :) Congratulations, Gabriel! From halvard at earthlink.net Sat May 10 10:54:17 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:54:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Vito Acconci, "Re" Message-ID: Re (here)( )( ) ( )(there)( ) ( )( )(here and there ? I say here) ( )(I do not say now)( ) (I do not say it now)( )( ) ( )(then and there ? I say there)( ) ( )( )(say there) ( )(I do not say then)( ) (I do not say, then, this)( )( ) ( )(then I say)( ) ( )( )(here and there) ( )(first here)( ) (I said here second)( )( ) ( )(I do not talk first)( ) ( )( )(there then) ( )(here goes)( ) (I do not say what goes)( )( ) ( )(I do not go on saying)( ) ( )( )(there is) ( )(that is not to say)( ) (I do not say that)( )( ) ( )(here below)( ) ( )( )(I do not talk down) ( )(under my words)( ) (under discussion)( )( ) ( )(all there)( ) ( )( )(I do not say all) ( )(all I say)( ) --Vito Acconci at http://www.ubu.com/concept/ Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat May 10 11:09:50 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 08:09:50 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Vito Acconci, "Re" References: Message-ID: <3EBD163D.F36E3325@earthlink.net> ( )(that)( ) ( )(this)( ) ( )( )(no and where ? I say here) ( )(I will not say now)( ) - Jim Halvard Johnson wrote: > > Re > > (here)( )( ) > ( )(there)( ) > ( )( )(here and there ? I say here) > ( )(I do not say now)( ) > (I do not say it now)( )( ) > ( )(then and there ? I say there)( ) > ( )( )(say there) > ( )(I do not say then)( ) > (I do not say, then, this)( )( ) > ( )(then I say)( ) > ( )( )(here and there) > ( )(first here)( ) > (I said here second)( )( ) > ( )(I do not talk first)( ) > ( )( )(there then) > ( )(here goes)( ) > (I do not say what goes)( )( ) > ( )(I do not go on saying)( ) > ( )( )(there is) > ( )(that is not to say)( ) > (I do not say that)( )( ) > ( )(here below)( ) > ( )( )(I do not talk down) > ( )(under my words)( ) > (under discussion)( )( ) > ( )(all there)( ) > ( )( )(I do not say all) > ( )(all I say)( ) > > --Vito Acconci > > at http://www.ubu.com/concept/ > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From GrahamD at ripon.edu Sat May 10 11:18:19 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:18:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A most unusual conversation Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479FE7@mail.ripon.edu> Chocolates Once some people were visiting Chekhov. While they made remarks about his genius the Master fidgeted. Finally he said, "Do you like chocolates?" They were astonished, and silent. He repeated the question, whereupon one lady plucked up her courage and murmured shyly, "Yes." "Tell me," he said, leaning forward, light glinting from his spectacles, "what kind?" The light, sweet chocolate or the dark, bitter kind?" The conversation became general. They spoke of cherry centers, of almonds and Brazil nuts. Losing their inhibitions they interrupted one another. For people may not know what they think about politics in the Balkans, or the vexed question of men and women, but everyone has a definite opinion about the flavor of shredded coconut. Finally someone spoke of chocolates filled with liqueur, and everyone, even the author of *Uncle Vanya*, was at a loss for words. As they were leaving he stood by the door and took their hands. In the coach returning to Petersburg they agreed that it had been a most *unusual* conversation. --Louis Simpson. *Caviare at the Funeral*. Franklin Watts, 1980, ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 10 11:53:42 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:53:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Another way than an MFA? Message-ID: <65.10b1967a.2bee7a86@aol.com> http://www.thetemplebookstore.com/schoolofpoetry.html http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/aa050603e.htm The about.com poetry site's recent article about Charles Potts and his various projects, including The Temple School of Poetry. Finnegan From GrahamD at ripon.edu Sat May 10 12:06:39 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:06:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Vito Acconci, "Re" Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479FE9@mail.ripon.edu> For those who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing that they like. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: Halvard Johnson > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 9:54 AM > To: New-Poetry > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Vito Acconci, "Re" > > > Re > > (here)( )( ) > ( )(there)( ) > ( )( )(here and there - I say here) > ( )(I do not say now)( ) > (I do not say it now)( )( ) > ( )(then and there - I say there)( ) > ( )( )(say there) > ( )(I do not say then)( ) > (I do not say, then, this)( )( ) > From halvard at earthlink.net Sat May 10 12:15:13 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:15:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Vito Acconci, "Re" In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479FE9@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: Don't mince words, David. Hal "Disorder is merely the order you are not looking for." --Henri Bergson Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { For those who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing that they { like. { { ============================================ { David Graham { Professor of English, Ripon College { grahamd at ripon.edu { Home Page: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html { My Poetry Library: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html { { Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu { ============================================ { { { > ---------- { > From: Halvard Johnson { > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 9:54 AM { > To: New-Poetry { > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Vito Acconci, "Re" { > { > { > Re { > { > (here)( )( ) { > ( )(there)( ) { > ( )( )(here and there - I say here) { > ( )(I do not say now)( ) { > (I do not say it now)( )( ) { > ( )(then and there - I say there)( ) { > ( )( )(say there) { > ( )(I do not say then)( ) { > (I do not say, then, this)( )( ) { > { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From GrahamD at ripon.edu Sat May 10 12:27:42 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:27:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: RE: "Re" Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479FEA@mail.ripon.edu> > { For those who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing that > they > { like. > > { Don't mince words, David. > Sorry. What I meant to write was: (For) those {who} ---like this sort *of* thing(,) > this > > is the "sort" of "thing" (that) they: [ like ] > > ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > { > ---------- > { > From: Halvard Johnson > { > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 9:54 AM > { > To: New-Poetry > { > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Vito Acconci, "Re" > { > > { > > { > Re > { > > { > (here)( )( ) > { > ( )(there)( ) > { > ( )( )(here and there - I say here) > { > ( )(I do not say now)( > ) > { > (I do not say it now)( )( > ) > { > ( )(then and there - I say there)( > ) > { > ( )( )(say there) > { > ( )(I do not say then)( ) > { > (I do not say, then, this)( )( ) > { > > From marcus at designerglass.com Sat May 10 12:49:33 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:49:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Vito Acconci, "Re" In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479FE9@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <3EBCF55D.21000.23AF39@localhost> > > (here)( )( ) > > ( )(there)( ) > > ( )( )(here and there - I say here) > > ( )(I do not say now)( ) > > (I do not say it now)( )( ) > > ( )(then and there - I say there)( ) > > ( )( )(say there) > > ( )(I do not say then)( ) > > (I do not say, then, this)( )( ) On 10 May 2003 at 11:06, Graham, David wrote: > For those who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing that they > like. Red pill, please: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/11/movies/11EDEL.html?pagewanted=1 Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From halvard at earthlink.net Sat May 10 12:46:39 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 12:46:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: RE: "Re" In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479FEA@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: Resume mincing when ready. Hal "Things are more like they are now than they ever were." --Dwight David Eisenhower Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { > { For those who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing that { > they { > { like. { > { > { Don't mince words, David. { > { Sorry. What I meant to write was: { { (For) those {who} { ---like this sort *of* thing(,) { { > this { > { > is the "sort" of "thing" (that) they: [ like ] { > { > { ============================================ { David Graham { Professor of English, Ripon College { grahamd at ripon.edu { Home Page: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html { My Poetry Library: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html { { Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu { ============================================ { { > { > ---------- { > { > From: Halvard Johnson { > { > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > { > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 9:54 AM { > { > To: New-Poetry { > { > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Vito Acconci, "Re" { > { > { > { > { > { > Re { > { > { > { > (here)( )( ) { > { > ( )(there)( ) { > { > ( )( )(here and there - I say here) { > { > ( )(I do not say now)( { > ) { > { > (I do not say it now)( )( { > ) { > { > ( )(then and there - I say there)( { > ) { > { > ( )( )(say there) { > { > ( )(I do not say then)( ) { > { > (I do not say, then, this)( )( ) { > { > { > { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat May 10 13:21:58 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:21:58 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Vito Acconci, "Re" References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479FE9@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <3EBD3536.C1367F86@earthlink.net> "Graham, David" wrote: > > For those who like this sort of thing, this is the sort of thing that they > like. And you can pay them in cash, which is just as good as money. - Jim From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat May 10 16:44:00 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:44:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems In-Reply-To: References: <200305091600.h49G03ST015868@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030510115433.017bafd0@mail.ilstu.edu> At 01:52 PM 5/9/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Congratulations, Gabriel! Thank you, Crisman. From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 10 21:11:12 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 21:11:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Last poems of CB Message-ID: This newsletter features a poem by CHARLES BUKOWSKI from his new posthumous collection sifting through the madness for the Word, the line, the way. To hear an excerpt from the audio Charles Bukowski Uncensored, click here: As a newsletter-subscriber, you are automatically entered to win a copy of sifting through the madness for the Word, the line, the way . Thanks for reading, and, please, forward this newsletter to a friend. .. so you want to be a writer? if it doesn't come bursting out of you in spite of everything, don't do it. unless it comes unasked out of your heart and your mind and your mouth and your gut, don't do it. if you have to sit for hours staring at your computer screen or hunched over your typewriter searching for words, don't do it. if you're doing it for money or fame, don't do it. if you're doing it because you want women in your bed, don't do it. if you have to sit there and rewrite it again and again, don't do it. if it's hard work just thinking about doing it, don't do it. if you're trying to write like somebody else, forget about it. if you have to wait for it to roar out of you, then wait patiently. if it never does roar out of you, do something else. if you first have to read it to your wife or your girlfriend or your boyfriend or your parents or to anybody at all, you're not ready. don't be like so many writers, don't be like so many thousands of people who call themselves writers, don't be dull and boring and pretentious, don't be consumed with self- love. the libraries of the world have yawned themselves to sleep over your kind. don't add to that. don't do it. unless it comes out of your soul like a rocket, unless being still would drive you to madness or suicide or murder, don't do it. unless the sun inside you is burning your gut, don't do it. when it is truly time, and if you have been chosen, it will do it by itself and it will keep on doing it until you die or it dies in you. there is no other way. and there never was. ....................................................................... ....................... _____ Privacy Policy .. .. sifting through the madness for the Word, the line, the way Hardcover Open All Night: New Poems Paperback The Roominghouse Madrigals Paperback War All The Time Paperback Burning In Water, Drowning In Flame Paperback Charles Bukowski Uncensored Audio More books by this author! .. .. ... CHARLES BUKOWSKI Charles Bukowski is one of America's best-known contemporary writers of poetry and prose and, many would claim, its most influential and imitated poet. He was born in Andernach, Germany to an American soldier father and a German mother in 1920, and brought to the United States at the age of three. He was raised in Los Angeles and lived there for fifty years. He published his first story in 1944 when he was twenty-four and began writing poetry at the age of thirty-five. He died in San Pedro, California on March 9, 1994 at the age of seventy-three, shortly after completing his last novel, Pulp (1994). During his lifetime he published more than forty-five books of poetry and prose, including the novels Post Office (1971), Factotum (1975), Women (1978), Ham on Rye (1982), and Hollywood (1989). His most recent books are the posthumous collections What Matters Most Is How Well You Walk Through the Fire (1999), Open All Night: New Poems (2000), and Beerspit Night and Cursing: The Correspondence of Charles Bukowski & Sheri Martinelli, 1960-1967 (2001). All of his books have now been published in translation in over a dozen languages and his worldwide popularity remains undiminished. In the years to come The Ecco Press will publish additional volumes of previously uncollected poetry and letters. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun May 11 09:38:12 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 06:38:12 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] exercizes Message-ID: <3EBE5244.BDDEE7D9@earthlink.net> I did these simply as exercizes. The first is an "inverted, left-hand sonnet," and the second is an "ambidextrous sonnet." Demise Tricia said come see the absolutely delicious harbinger exiting from my mouth. It was probably in the pudding, said Mom, Come do your homework, then you might go to the prom. Daughter started scribbling, dark scowl across her brow, slaughter in her mind. The bowl, ark, whatever, with white prow beached at her nostrils. Lost lunch break. What sweet Louis offered, she took. What luck, that bunch beneath the fire escape! Seasonal Sweet work in front of a mirror, all the world behind in terror. Neat work in thinnest shadow, fall in the north, spring in the south. Horses and jeeps, mired in snow, balk or stall. Somewhere there's a mouth nurses open to create surprise, clock death a second time, and lift an eyelid. Harmless flirting eyes summer in Puerto Rico, then shift. Plan nothing, she thinks. Funereal winter holds, an eye and window frosted over. A blind sky's missle landed here, this new season's show. - Jim From JforJames at aol.com Sun May 11 14:31:21 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 14:31:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic Tribute To Meredith Message-ID: <75.10c973f8.2beff0f9@aol.com> Though a regional initiative, I thought this was a nice idea for honoring a poet & his poetry... Date: 05/06/2003 SLOSBERG, STEVEN > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ---- > A Poetic Tribute To Meredith > > WHAT TO GIVE POET William Meredith, who's already won the Pulitzer and the > National Book Award, for his 85th birthday? > > Short of a Grand Tour of Europe and selected academic and cultural capitals > in this country that his friends have planned, James Coleman, a retired > professor of English living in Norwich, has a smart and instructive idea. > > Coleman, who taught English at Three Rivers Community College for 26 years > and retired in 1999, wants local high schools to read Meredith's poem, "The > Wreck of the Thresher," during his birthday year. Meredith, emeritus > professor of English at Connecticut College, will turn 85 in January. He > keeps a home along the Thames River in Uncasville with his longtime > companion, the writer Richard Harteis. > > Coleman took last year's "One Book, One Region" reading project here as his > inspiration. He led several library discussions as part of the literary > endeavor that spanned eastern Connecticut. "Snow in August" by Pete Hamill > was the choice of the first "One Book" project. Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit > 451" is this year's selection. > > For Coleman, "The Wreck of the Thresher" is an opportune vehicle for a "One > Poem" to bring quality poetry, local history and reflections on the > consequences of duty into the classroom. > > Meredith wrote the elegy in 1963, shortly after the USS Thresher, a > nuclear-powered attack submarine, was lost with 129 crew aboard some 200 > miles off Cape Cod. The sub sank on April 10, 1963. The poem begins with > Meredith peering out at the Thames: > > I stand on the ledge where rock runs into the river > > As the night turns brackish with morning, and mourn the drowned. > > Though the Thresher set out on its final voyage from the Portsmouth Naval > Shipyard in Kittery, Maine, more than 20 crewmembers left families in this > region. Two brothers, John Shafer, 34, and Benjamin Shafer, 42, were among > those lost. > > The Thresher departed the shipyard on April 9 and failed to surface after a > test dive on April 10. > > The poem continues: > > This crushing of people is something we live with. > > Daily, by unaccountable whim > > Or caught up in some harebrained scheme of death, > > Tangled in cars, dropped from the sky, in flame, > > Men and women break the pledge of breath ... > > Incapacitated by a stroke years ago, Meredith has recovered sufficiently to > travel, write and speak. He and Harteis are living in West Palm Beach, Fla. > They have trips planned to Russia, England and Bulgaria, and will be here at > the end of this month for the memorial service for Charles Shain, the former > president of Connecticut College who died recently. > > Harteis said last week that he's spoken with Coleman about the "Wreck of the > Thresher" project and that it pleases Meredith. > > Celebrations of Meredith's birthday will keep the pair traveling through > much of 2004. But they intend to be in the region from time to time. "I will > start William practicing this poem should the occasion arise for him to read > it," said Harteis. > > It is doubtful Meredith has the stamina to tour local high schools, but a > reading at a joint gathering would be the right touch. Coleman is preparing > a short guide to the poem to assist teachers and students. There's talk, > too, of attracting former President Jimmy Carter here. Meredith has met > Carter and both served as officers in the Navy. > > Meredith's lines delve poignantly into this community, and teaching this > poem as a common bond is a natural. > > Not to mention being a lasting birthday gift, too. > > This is the opinion of Steven Slosberg. From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun May 11 18:50:28 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 18:50:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic Tribute To Meredith References: <75.10c973f8.2beff0f9@aol.com> Message-ID: <00d101c3180f$c09a7570$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Well, it's better than naming a star after him. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 2:31 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic Tribute To Meredith > Though a regional initiative, I thought this > was a nice idea for honoring a poet & his poetry... > > Date: 05/06/2003 > SLOSBERG, STEVEN > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > ---- > > A Poetic Tribute To Meredith > > > > WHAT TO GIVE POET William Meredith, who's already won the Pulitzer and the > > National Book Award, for his 85th birthday? > > > > Short of a Grand Tour of Europe and selected academic and cultural > capitals > > in this country that his friends have planned, James Coleman, a retired > > professor of English living in Norwich, has a smart and instructive idea. > > > > Coleman, who taught English at Three Rivers Community College for 26 years > > and retired in 1999, wants local high schools to read Meredith's poem, > "The > > Wreck of the Thresher," during his birthday year. Meredith, emeritus > > professor of English at Connecticut College, will turn 85 in January. He > > keeps a home along the Thames River in Uncasville with his longtime > > companion, the writer Richard Harteis. > > > > Coleman took last year's "One Book, One Region" reading project here as > his > > inspiration. He led several library discussions as part of the literary > > endeavor that spanned eastern Connecticut. "Snow in August" by Pete Hamill > > was the choice of the first "One Book" project. Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit > > 451" is this year's selection. > > > > For Coleman, "The Wreck of the Thresher" is an opportune vehicle for a > "One > > Poem" to bring quality poetry, local history and reflections on the > > consequences of duty into the classroom. > > > > Meredith wrote the elegy in 1963, shortly after the USS Thresher, a > > nuclear-powered attack submarine, was lost with 129 crew aboard some 200 > > miles off Cape Cod. The sub sank on April 10, 1963. The poem begins with > > Meredith peering out at the Thames: > > > > I stand on the ledge where rock runs into the river > > > > As the night turns brackish with morning, and mourn the drowned. > > > > Though the Thresher set out on its final voyage from the Portsmouth Naval > > Shipyard in Kittery, Maine, more than 20 crewmembers left families in this > > region. Two brothers, John Shafer, 34, and Benjamin Shafer, 42, were among > > those lost. > > > > The Thresher departed the shipyard on April 9 and failed to surface after > a > > test dive on April 10. > > > > The poem continues: > > > > This crushing of people is something we live with. > > > > Daily, by unaccountable whim > > > > Or caught up in some harebrained scheme of death, > > > > Tangled in cars, dropped from the sky, in flame, > > > > Men and women break the pledge of breath ... > > > > Incapacitated by a stroke years ago, Meredith has recovered sufficiently > to > > travel, write and speak. He and Harteis are living in West Palm Beach, > Fla. > > They have trips planned to Russia, England and Bulgaria, and will be here > at > > the end of this month for the memorial service for Charles Shain, the > former > > president of Connecticut College who died recently. > > > > Harteis said last week that he's spoken with Coleman about the "Wreck of > the > > Thresher" project and that it pleases Meredith. > > > > Celebrations of Meredith's birthday will keep the pair traveling through > > much of 2004. But they intend to be in the region from time to time. "I > will > > start William practicing this poem should the occasion arise for him to > read > > it," said Harteis. > > > > It is doubtful Meredith has the stamina to tour local high schools, but a > > reading at a joint gathering would be the right touch. Coleman is > preparing > > a short guide to the poem to assist teachers and students. There's talk, > > too, of attracting former President Jimmy Carter here. Meredith has met > > Carter and both served as officers in the Navy. > > > > Meredith's lines delve poignantly into this community, and teaching this > > poem as a common bond is a natural. > > > > Not to mention being a lasting birthday gift, too. > > > > This is the opinion of Steven Slosberg. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Sun May 11 19:47:54 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 19:47:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 2003, David Graham wrote: > I hope Lehman's doing a companion volume of international stuff, too. My > copy of the marvelous old Michael Benedickt anthology has nearly > disintegrated with age. I have been trying to find a copy of this volume for a few years now with a singular lack of success. It amazes me that it hasn't been reissued. c -- Chris Lott From JforJames at aol.com Sun May 11 20:16:51 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 20:16:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Brossard's "Shadow Soft et Soif" Message-ID: <84.10a90aa2.2bf041f3@aol.com> Date: 5/11/03 7:17:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: guy.bennett at sbcglobal.net (Guy Bennett) To: guy.bennett at sbcglobal.net Dear Reader, I am pleased to announce that a new work by Nicole Brossard has just been published by Seeing Eye Books. "Shadow Soft et Soif" is a beautifully paced constellation of brief lyric poems that trace the fugitive qualities of language, love, and poetry as they play themselves out in a writing "snatched / from the rift in the simple present." It appears in a translation from the French by Guy Bennett. "Shadow Soft et Soif" is available as part of this year's Seeing Eye Books series, which also includes work by Jen Hofer, Elizabeth Robinson, and Paul Vangelisti. A subscription to the series is $25.00. If you would like to subscribe, please email me for details. If you are already a subscriber - thank you! - and my apologies for sending you this note. If you would like more information about Seeing Eye Books or would like to be on its mailing list, please respond to this message with your address. A PDF version of our catalogue is available via e-mail upon request. If you'd like to be removed from this list just let me know, and my apologies in advance for the inconvenience. Best wishes, Guy Bennett From halvard at earthlink.net Sun May 11 22:47:29 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 22:47:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Under the Rubric" Message-ID: Under the Rubric but hey, this is an armchair pedogenesis at best) which check, language, thing) . . . push suggest dictation solely language maybe stutter, I wouldn't be hunched over in me anymore benighted thing) . . . that if I could push around my insides scribbling, cognition mark I wasn't so young that she still lingers it presumed uttering, english at what is) is sand she's blood through her, writing push used too, of theory (and tends so much to want that forth right thing) . . . states, age that Mars has used composing declarations of love --Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon May 12 06:54:02 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 06:54:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] now on Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000101c31874$d77c0cd0$8bfef343@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Two new books from Kristin Prevallet Blogging notes Joel Bettridge's Shores: Following the logic of the poem David Markson's marvelous This is Not a Novel (Is so!) Graham Foust's 6 & a note on his comments re my reading of Spicer (remembering Frederick Bock) Merrill Gilfillan's "Bull Run in October" amid the riches of The Poker 2 Who is Charles Tomlinson: a cautionary tale Blogs & links: beyond the inner circle Comments on my comments on H.D.'s "Helen" Halvard Johnson's Rapsodie espagnole H.D.'s "Helen": The poetics of fury Robert Gluck's "The Visit" A letter & poem from the late Larry Eigner An email from Dale Smith on the social context of the journal in poetry Chris Tysh's Continuity Girl http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon May 12 12:16:31 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:16:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] help Message-ID: <005b01c318a1$e00c9c70$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> OK, I really need help -- preferably backchannel, because it's embarrassing enough to be posting this at all. I need an MFA...fast. The college I teach at - sometimes part time, sometimes Visiting Assistant Prof - will have a line for a creative writing specialist in Fall 2004. I know the English Dept. would look kindly on my application, but to be considered for the job, I need the degree. My history is this: I was in the MFA program at Iowa in the 60s, but I was kind of a victim of my own precocity. I was invited to join the Workshop as an undergraduate, so my first two years at Iowa were balanced between Workshop courses and undergraduate courses. When I finally got my BA, I only had one more year of eligibility in the workshop under their three-and-out rule, and I was only able to get an MA. So I have the MA, a bunch of MFA requirements met, and I've published about 30 books in the intervening years. Can anyone help me with advice on a program -- either low-residency or within driving distance of upstate NY -- where they would (a) work with my somewhat unusual situation and give me credit for 40-year-old academic work and a shitload of life experience, and (b) admit me starting this fall? Signed, Desperate in the Catskills. Tad Richards tadrichards at prodigy.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poemlady at cox.net Mon May 12 12:26:51 2003 From: poemlady at cox.net (poemlady at cox.net) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 12:26:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] help Message-ID: <20030512162651.HCFT13930.lakemtao04.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> Dear Tad, I'm not sure what the admissions people would say in respect to your questions, but I will say that I'm in the midst of the low-residency MFA in Poetry at Vermont College and am enjoying the experience immensely. Backchannel me if you need more specific information. Audrey > From: "TheOldMole" > Date: 2003/05/12 Mon PM 12:16:31 EDT > To: > Subject: [New-Poetry] help > > OK, I really need help -- preferably backchannel, because it's embarrassing enough to be posting this at all. > > I need an MFA...fast. The college I teach at - sometimes part time, sometimes Visiting Assistant Prof - will have a line for a creative writing specialist in Fall 2004. I know the English Dept. would look kindly on my application, but to be considered for the job, I need the degree. > > My history is this: I was in the MFA program at Iowa in the 60s, but I was kind of a victim of my own precocity. I was invited to join the Workshop as an undergraduate, so my first two years at Iowa were balanced between Workshop courses and undergraduate courses. When I finally got my BA, I only had one more year of eligibility in the workshop under their three-and-out rule, and I was only able to get an MA. So I have the MA, a bunch of MFA requirements met, and I've published about 30 books in the intervening years. > > Can anyone help me with advice on a program -- either low-residency or within driving distance of upstate NY -- where they would (a) work with my somewhat unusual situation and give me credit for 40-year-old academic work and a shitload of life experience, and (b) admit me starting this fall? > > Signed, Desperate in the Catskills. > > > Tad Richards > tadrichards at prodigy.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Mon May 12 14:28:51 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 03 14:28:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "But hey" Message-ID: <200305121831.h4CIVLi7024688@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> It's so easy to skip the rest when a poem begins "But hey" >>Under the Rubric >> >>but hey, (snip) Richard From MillB at aol.com Mon May 12 16:34:24 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:34:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] help Message-ID: <5701C2F6.1D7870A8.0000FC2C@aol.com> Tad: Try Vermont College--low residency program. Good luck Mill From MillB at aol.com Mon May 12 16:38:35 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:38:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] help Message-ID: <2024B965.0A8D8B22.0000FC2C@aol.com> PS: Any job that I've ever applied for has considered an MA equal to an MFA, especially with the books and life experience that you have. I have an MPW (which is classified as a high-bred cross between an MFA and an MA, but terminal). I've never been eliminated from job competitions because I have an MA and an MPW but not an MFA. Maybe, before you go spending thousands of dollars, check into the application process and MAKE sure that you need exactly an MFA. Mill From JforJames at aol.com Mon May 12 16:45:24 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 16:45:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] help Message-ID: <124.21bffb0b.2bf161e4@aol.com> In a message dated 5/12/03 12:17:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > low-residency or within driving distance of upstate NY -- where they would (a) > work with my somewhat unusual situation and give me credit for 40-year-old > academic work and a shitload of life experience, and (b) admit me starting > this fall? Tad, it's crazy that you can't get an exemption for your experience/publicaitons. but with so many newly-founded low-residency MFA programs, maybe you can cut a deal and get one of them to waive a significant # of credits.... Stonecoast/U. of Southern Maine New England College (Henniker NH) U. of New Orleans Spalding Univ. (Louisville KY) Queens U. of Charlotte Fairleigh Dickinson U. (NJ) Lesley College (Boston) I would think the older low-residency programs, like Warren Wilson, Vermont and Bennington, might not be as hungry for enrollments. Anyway I think you should get at least 3 credits knocked off for your participation in CAP-L & NewPoetry. Good luck, Finnegan P.S.--What body sanctions/authorizes all these MFA Writing programs, low-residency or otherwise? From halvard at earthlink.net Mon May 12 17:43:30 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 17:43:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "But hey" In-Reply-To: <200305121831.h4CIVLi7024688@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: Don't I know it! Hal { It's so easy to skip the rest when a poem begins "But hey" { { >>Under the Rubric { >> { >>but hey, (snip) { { Richard From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Mon May 12 18:39:48 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 03 18:39:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "But Hey" Message-ID: <200305122242.h4CMg3i7251042@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> Aw shoot Hal, was that your poem? I'm sorry, I take it back, really. I'm serious. Richard From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon May 12 18:43:06 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 18:43:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] help References: <2024B965.0A8D8B22.0000FC2C@aol.com> Message-ID: <001101c318d7$ddb1d400$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Mill -- thanks. I've already been told that I'll need an MFA, unfortunately. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] help > PS: > > Any job that I've ever applied for has considered an MA equal to an MFA, especially with the books and life experience that you have. I have an MPW (which is classified as a high-bred cross between an MFA and an MA, but terminal). I've never been eliminated from job competitions because I have an MA and an MPW but not an MFA. Maybe, before you go spending thousands of dollars, check into the application process and MAKE sure that you need exactly an MFA. > > Mill > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon May 12 21:27:25 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:27:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] help Message-ID: In a message dated 5/12/2003 5:47:10 PM Central Standard Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > > Mill -- thanks. I've already been told that I'll need an MFA, > unfortunately. > > Tad > Tad, send me $600 and I'll let you have mine. I don't need it anymore. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon May 12 21:29:47 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 21:29:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] help Message-ID: <1e5.8be708c.2bf1a48b@cs.com> In a message dated 5/12/2003 5:47:10 PM Central Standard Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > > Mill -- thanks. I've already been told that I'll need an MFA, > unfortunately. > > Tad > Oops. Make that $700. I forgot about the framing. Seriously, I think you should enroll in Vermont's program (talk to Syd Lea), and offer yourself as a candidate who swears he'll finish the silly thing in X months. I assume they like you o.k. enough to let you be a temp for a year or so. Where's my damn book? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon May 12 23:50:35 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:50:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Szymborska query Message-ID: I have the Stanislaw Baranczak/Clare Cavanagh translation of Wislawa Szymborska's *Poems: New & Selected*. I note that Daedalus is selling a rather cheap selected volume called *Miracle Fair*, trans. Joanna Trzeciak. So I'm wondering if anyone knows both books and has opinions. Is there great overlap in the tables of contents? Do you prefer one translation over the other? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From wjbat at conncoll.edu Tue May 13 00:15:11 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 00:15:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] help In-Reply-To: <005b01c318a1$e00c9c70$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <20030513001511.027537@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Tad, I wish I had a solution, but you're not alone in the problem. If you find a good fix, please let me know. I have an MA and have been offered a couple of jobs *if I'll get an MFA*, which seems ludicrous at this point in my life. I've taught in MFA programs. But I suspect this will only get worse. Please keep us posted. Wendy TheOldMole wrote: >OK, I really need help -- preferably backchannel, because it's embarrassing >enough to be posting this at all. > >I need an MFA...fast. The college I teach at - sometimes part time, sometimes >Visiting Assistant Prof - will have a line for a creative writing specialist in >Fall 2004. I know the English Dept. would look kindly on my application, but >to be considered for the job, I need the degree. > >My history is this: I was in the MFA program at Iowa in the 60s, but I was kind >of a victim of my own precocity. I was invited to join the Workshop as an >undergraduate, so my first two years at Iowa were balanced between Workshop >courses and undergraduate courses. When I finally got my BA, I only had one >more year of eligibility in the workshop under their three-and-out rule, and I >was only able to get an MA. So I have the MA, a bunch of MFA requirements met, >and I've published about 30 books in the intervening years. > >Can anyone help me with advice on a program -- either low-residency or within >driving distance of upstate NY -- where they would (a) work with my somewhat >unusual situation and give me credit for 40-year-old academic work and a >shitload of life experience, and (b) admit me starting this fall? > >Signed, Desperate in the Catskills. > > >Tad Richards >tadrichards at prodigy.net > > ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu salt to the pleasure? sugar to the pleasure? pepper to the pleasure --from an unsigned recipe From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue May 13 08:39:46 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 08:39:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] help References: Message-ID: <003001c3194c$bee7b150$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Anyone want to go for $500? ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] help In a message dated 5/12/2003 5:47:10 PM Central Standard Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: Mill -- thanks. I've already been told that I'll need an MFA, unfortunately. Tad Tad, send me $600 and I'll let you have mine. I don't need it anymore. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sellwein at hotmail.com Tue May 13 10:48:48 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:48:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] new poem - Time Spring Message-ID: Time Spring along the path, deep inside - this disappearing scene where all life fades in foggy mists and grey shrouds cloak the trees i hear nothing of the sun today, just creaks and scrapes that drag upon the ground the sounds of mother earth's complaints are screeched by birds and homeless people i hear the time spring wound so tight and see it's filiments of rust in every thing that's touched my mother's hands like mine - have gathered up the bits of rust where willows weep and spill their tears dark rivers moan so deep the echoes peel and scrape my bones sometimes i wonder when and where or how love finds it's way in the blindness of each passing day Deborah Russell, 2003 _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue May 13 11:33:43 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 10:33:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia as muse Message-ID: The Hidden Life Dana Gioia's arrival in Washington to head the NEA prompts dark thoughts about the difference between the public and the private life. by J. Bottum 05/13/2003 12:00:00 AM The Hidden Life For the poet Dana Gioia, upon his taking a public office, as chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts Sometimes on evening walks you hear, in whispers from old wells and almost-words that rivers speak, a quiet voice that tells of small, secluded things. Like murmured prayers from churchmen's stalls or what the marbled echoes say, it rises, then it falls. And you may follow when it calls or you may think to wait. The green at dusk seems deeper than the green at dawn. Beyond the gate a garden opens on long shadows overgrown with leaves and lilac nunneries between the gravel paths, where sparrows seek their tenebraes. And you may follow, if you please, or keep to public streets. Against the bruit of busy day, the private houses close their eyes. A few small panes betray high bookshelves in a firelit room, a woman sweeping floors, a glimpse of some unknowing boy at work at evening chores. And you may follow, through those doors, or you may turn aside. In lines of black between the flames, a fire writes against its light. Dry hopes, forgotten fames, the traceless works of childless men: All printed there to read. The cinders spell the deeper night, dark need inside dark need. And you may follow where they lead or you may look away. --J. Bottum J. Bottum is Books & Arts editor of The Weekly Standard and author of The Fall & Other Poems. http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/675esbhb.a sp --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From halvard at earthlink.net Tue May 13 13:01:42 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 13:01:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Carl Rakosi, "Theme" Message-ID: Theme How delightful to discover on Olympus a god of Silence (and not a minor one either). Hail Harpocrates! How reassuring that you are still here to protect us against the theorists. --Carl Rakosi in *Conjunctions* 16, 1991 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 13 16:35:47 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 16:35:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Intra-V (new online litmag) Message-ID: <15e.1fcdf48f.2bf2b123@aol.com> >We've just started up a new on-line poetry magazine and we'd like your > >help in letting people know we're now ready to accept submissions. Our > >submission guidelines are published in full on our webpage at > > > >www.Intra-V.com > > > >maybe you'd be so kind to send a copy of this information to those > >parties you feel may be interested in either a group e-mail or in your > >next newsletter or journal. > > > >Thank you in advance for your help, > > > >Intra-V On-line Poetry Magazine From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 13 17:03:09 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:03:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ted Joans RIP Message-ID: Beat Generation Poet Ted Joans Dies at 74 Mon May 12, 4:36 AM ET By JEREMY HAINSWORTH, Associated Press Writer VANCOUVER, British Columbia - Ted Joans, a Beat Generation poet whose work drew from the African-American oral tradition and blended black consciousness with avant-garde jazz rhythm, has died. He was 74. Joans was found dead in his Vancouver, British Columbia, apartment on May 7, said T. Paul St. Marie, an entertainer and family friend. He had been in poor health with diabetes. The poet was a contemporary and friend of Beat icons Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg, but never achieved their level of fame during a career that spanned more than 40 years. Yet he was considered an influential figure in American and African-American literature. "He was a character, a personality in his own right, a very lively person," said Vancouver author Jamie Reid. "He wrote poetry that influenced and was influenced by the Beat Generation." At his death, Joans' career was enjoying a resurgence with the recent publication of the anthology "Teducation." St. Marie said that Laura Corsiglia, the longtime companion of Joans, was asking the poetry community to write in chalk on streets and sidewalks "Ted Joans Lives" as a tribute. When jazz great Charlie "Bird" Parker died in 1955, Joans wrote "Bird Lives" on the streets of New York in what became an immortal graffito. Joans was born Theodore Jones on July 4, 1928, in Cairo, Illinois. He later changed his surname to Joans to distinguish it from the more common spelling and, according to one source, because of a woman named Joan. He earned a degree in Fine Arts from Indiana University before moving to New York and honing his skills as a poet with the bohemian set of Greenwich Village in the late 1950s and early 1960s. His work is characterized by a black consciousness, and has a musical language closely linked to the blues and the best of avant-garde jazz. Joans' style is associated with the oral tradition of African-American writing, but he also was influenced by Surrealist painters and writers, and was a considerable visual artist in his own right - his painting "Bird Lives" hangs in San Francisco's DeYoung Museum. Joans recited his poems in coffeehouses in New York and, once, in the Sahara Desert. "He used to rent himself out to upper-middle class parties as a beatnik," recalled George Bowering, Canada's poet laureate. "He was very comic." Joans lived in Paris for several decades and traveled widely, often with a pocket full of garlic cloves because, he once said, they were "powerful preventative medicine." The poet moved to Vancouver several years ago and remained a prolific writer until his death. Joans is survived by 10 children. St. Marie said he would be cremated with no funeral, as he wished. From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 13 17:28:50 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 17:28:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Joans' Teducation reviewed by Foley Message-ID: <157.1f47a181.2bf2bd92@aol.com> http://www.ishmaelreedpub.com/foley2.html From reneea at bellatlantic.net Tue May 13 19:55:12 2003 From: reneea at bellatlantic.net (Renee Ashley) Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:55:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] help References: <20030513001511.027537@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <004b01c319ab$195e0540$bfa1598a@oemcomputer> Tad, I'm in the same boat as Wendy. Please *do* let us know if you find a "fix"! thanks, Renee > Tad, > I wish I had a solution, but you're not alone in the problem. If you > find a good fix, please let me know. I have an MA and have been offered > a couple of jobs *if I'll get an MFA*, which seems ludicrous at this > point in my life. I've taught in MFA programs. But I suspect this will > only get worse. Please keep us posted. > > Wendy > From trbell at comcast.net Wed May 14 01:24:34 2003 From: trbell at comcast.net (tom bell) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 00:24:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] promo Message-ID: <001301c319d9$1bcfb2a0$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> Had a poem accepted by this new weeky zine. It is 'tacit poetry' but I didn't have to sign. tom bell not yet a crazy old man hard but not yet hardening of the art From trbell at comcast.net Wed May 14 02:41:44 2003 From: trbell at comcast.net (tom bell) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 01:41:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] promo References: <001301c319d9$1bcfb2a0$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> Message-ID: <001a01c319e3$e3c4c520$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> forgot the link, sorry for the duplication. THE TACTILE MIND WEEKLY #4 13 May 2003 To subscribe, go to: http://four.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/weekly CONTENTS ~The Main Thing: John Lee Clark ~On Hand with Trudy Suggs ~Belfast Graffiti: Shane ? hEorpa ~Man on the Street: Christopher Jon Heuer ~Coffee Shop Notes: Sara Stallard ~The Significance of Reality: Adrean Clark ~Tacit Poetry: Tom Bell ~Missed Connections: Tanya Ruys ~Palm Lines: Raymond Luczak ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom bell" To: ; ; "poetics" Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 12:24 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] promo > Had a poem accepted by this new weeky zine. It is 'tacit poetry' but I > didn't have to sign. > > tom bell > not yet a crazy old man > hard but not yet hardening of the > art > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Wed May 14 10:58:56 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:58:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Dara Wier, "American Revolution" Message-ID: American Revolution God, the little black dog is ambitious. Digs a pit, starts a fire, goes to an ocean, Fishes all morning, finds the finest saffron, Starts a farm, grows fine crops, builds a forge, Forges a cast iron pot, cures it for ten seasons, Carves a wooden spoon. Brings half of the Arctic Circle & all of the Tropic Of Cancer home. God, the little black dog has a friend. Digs a deep pond with a small spoon, fills it with dew Collected in a teacup, levels a forest, grows timber, Builds a high tower, discovers optics, finds sand, Erects a furnace, turns a finely ground spyglass. Turns into a mountain lion, starves, turns into a white- Tailed deer. God, the little black dog's in a mood. Nothing good to say about dogs, stars, ditchwater, quarter- Masters, waterslides, pool tables, pine needles, razorblades, Windshield wipers, mudslides, portable phones. Every way has a way of adding more to a dog than a dog Is for, in favor of, that is, when it was a puppy only. Eyeglasses run over by a moving van, glove propped on a Windowledge. God, the little black dog meets its double. Builds a scaffold, grows hemp, weaves a rope, carries a Badge, wears a robe, finds trouble, dons a hood, marries For love, Leaves no will, escapes into the jungle, leaves That chapter behind, receives sacred tablets, ingests Hard iron, feels how the first few drops of milk from a Nipple fizz. --Dara Wier in *New American Writing* 20, 2002. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed May 14 13:29:25 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:29:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 in print Message-ID: Billy Collins's Poetry 180 project is now an anthology, available from Random House. Interestingly, the table of contents is significantly different from what's on the web site. For example, there are 3 Mark Halliday poems in the book, and none of them overlaps with the 3 on his web site. Similarly with William Matthews: I think only 1 poem of the four included overlaps. Plus some notable additions, such as Tom Wayman's "Did I Miss Anything?" (one of my favorites). And the interesting "contemporary" poets C.S. Lewis and Yannis Ritsos. . . . Etc. I'm still poking around the book. Since there are 180 poems in the book, some poets must have been dropped. Nice anthology, really, and accessible, of course--but there sure are more than a few poems that seem more to the taste of a 60 year old than a 16 year old, in my humble opinion. And some I can't imagine too many high schoolers "getting" when read over the public address. I'm not sure what accounts for the differences between web site and book. Possibly permissions costs entered into the equation. No doubt he or his publisher had some second thoughts, for whatever reasons--including issues of diversity. In his introduction, Collins does mention being able to include longer poems in a book than can be comfortably read over a public address system at high school, but there are no really long poems in the book. And he refers to poems that came to his attention after the web site was launched. Collins also mentions wanting to present some lesser-known poets and poems, and I think he succeeds in that, though the book also contains plenty of familiar faces. Amazon has the table of contents: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812968875/qid%3D1052933170/sr%3D11-1 /ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/103-5059613-6315020 ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From barry.spacks at verizon.net Wed May 14 13:56:29 2003 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:56:29 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the recent Paradiddle-thread In-Reply-To: <200305141601.h4EG12ST022888@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030514105015.00b46690@incoming.verizon.net> Thought some might be interested in the following announcement as to the next stage in the Great Paradelle Invasion, quoting Theresa Welford: From: Theresa Welford Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 15:37:13 -0400 To: Arielpf123 at aol.com Subject: Announcement: paradelle anthology Hi, folks. I am happy to announce that the paradelle anthology I began compiling about three years ago has been accepted for publication by Red Hen Press, who hope to publish it in the fall. Several Wompo members contributed to the manuscript, and I know their fine paradelles helped get this collection accepted. The paradelle, as you may recall, is a form created by Billy Collins. Inspired by W. H. Auden's comment that there's nothing funnier than bad poetry, Billy decided that one really good way to write a really awful -- and therefore funny -- poem was to make up some absurd rules and then obey them even when they became unmanageable. So he did. And his own "Paradelle for Susan" is supremely bad and hilarious (complete with the pseudo-academic footnote in which pretty much everything is untrue!!): Paradelle for Susan (by Billy Collins) I remember the quick, nervous bird of your love. I remember the quick, nervous bird of your love. Always perched on the thinnest, highest branch. Always perched on the thinnest, highest branch. Thinnest love, remember the quick branch. Always nervous, I perched on your highest bird the. It is time for me to cross the mountain. It is time for me to cross the mountain. And find another shore to darken with my pain. And find another shore to darken with my pain. Another pain for me to darken the mountain. And find the time, cross my shore, to with it is to. The weather warm, the handwriting familiar. The weather warm, the handwriting familiar. Your letter flies from my hand into the waters below. Your letter flies from my hand into the waters below. The familiar waters below my warm hand. Into handwriting your weather flies you letter the from the. I always cross the highest letter, the thinnest bird. Below the waters of my warm familiar pain, Another hand to remember your handwriting. The weather perched for me on the shore. Quick, your nervous branch flew from love. Darken the mountain, time and find was my into it was with to to. NOTE: The paradelle is one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century. It is a poem of four six-line stanzas in which the first and second lines, as well as the third and fourth lines of the first three stanzas, must be identical. The fifth and sixth lines, which traditionally resolve these stanzas, must use all the words from the preceding lines and only those words. Similarly, the final stanza must use every word from all the preceding stanzas and only those words. Anyway, I fell in love with the paradelle form when I learned about it a few years ago, so I decided to invite a bunch of poets to write paradelles and send them to me. The collection that resulted was accepted several months ago, but I've been SO SWAMPED -- teaching four classes a semester while having a new house built and then moving into the new house AND writing my dissertation -- that I haven't had time to let everyone know. (I did let everyone know whether their poems were going to be included, but I haven't yet announced that the manuscript itself has been accepted. Until now. I do apologize for that.) Below is a list of all the contributors (except for maybe two or three who've been added since I sent the manuscript to Red Hen Press): The Paradelle: An Anthology edited by Theresa M. Welford featuring "A Brief History of the Paradelle," by Billy Collins, 11th Poet Laureate of the United States Kim Addonizio Madeline Bassnett Maxianne Berger Wendy Bishop Don Bogen Kathryn Byer Catherine Carter Fred Chappell Billy Collins Christina Daub Nan Davenport Mary DeBow Jon Deckert Sharon Dolin Denise Duhamel Aaron Fagan Patricia Fargnoli Annie Finch Dana Gioia Lisa Gluskin William Greenway Viv? Griffith R. S. Gwynn Dina Hardy David Hernandez Colette Inez Mary Johnson Allison Joseph Len Krizak Joel D. Lamore Sydney Lea Gerald Locklin Susan Ludvigson Charlotte Mandel David Mason Leslie Monsour Alfred Nicol Sharon Pretti Anna Rabinowitz Linda Rocheleau Ken Ronkowitz Henry Sloss Adam Sol Barry Spacks Henry Taylor Kathrine Varnes Quentin Vest Ronald Wallace Theresa M. Welford Carolyn Beard Whitlow Greg Williamson Terry Wolverton Mary Catherine Wood Chryss Yost -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Wed May 14 15:35:32 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 15:35:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "My Angie Dickinson" plus Robert Pinsky @ Mainstream Poetry In-Reply-To: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com> References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com> Message-ID: <1052940932.3ec29a84be77a@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Hi all, Just a note to let you know that poems 1-10 and 11-20 of the series "My Angie Dickinson" are now up at http://www.mainstreampoetry.com . Wedged in between is an illuminating interview with Robert Pinsky. I claim the "Dickinson" poems as my own but I cannot claim to have had any part in the Pinsky interview, much as I'd like to. -m. From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed May 14 15:39:14 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:39:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Halliday Message-ID: Sax's and Selves I saw you going into Sax's Steak Sandwiches but what were you thinking? It was a hot day, the downtown traffic smashed itself right thru, right thru. People wore their primary colors and touched the doors and parking meters and bottles and quarters and steering wheels and the hold-on bars in bouncing busses with tough hands, tools made of tough skin. The sun was some ten degrees hotter than anybody expected, this being not yet summer, people folded their jackets and went to deal. You must have been dealing too, but what were you dealing with? You came out of Sax's Steak Sandwiches with a large Coke to go, straw stuck thru plastic lid, but what were you contemplating? There was sweat in all armpits, three ten-year-old boys had a hardball, one of them shouted "Up your ass" and laughed. Fifteen blocks away an enormous insurance building glittered with its violent impregnability in the hot sky. It was real, as real as the hot yellow gas truck, which was as real as the spice in Sax's chili, and so were you no doubt but what was your real point? I mean what did you add up to? You caught the Dudley bus and sat next to a blind young man whose fingers flickered every minute or so in something like a diffident farewell to someone important who might not return for a long time. Staring at the fingernails of the rider across from you, you tapped your foot to a song called "Staying Alive" from a black girl's huge radio-- and you may even have hummed along while sucking ice from your tall cup-- however, the song's meaning for you is not apparent; and I don't know why you got off where you did, chucking your drained cup in a dumpster, rolling up your sleeves as you passed the Purity Supreme. . . I know exactly *where* you got off and how hot the air was but damn you! What were you *thinking*? I've tried, I've tried to figure it but it comes out different each time and I can't be bothered--really, if you have some hang-up about Being Mysterious it's not my problem. So unless you're willing to give me a clue-- just the general area, the basic subject, something to get started is all, you don't have to fork over your whole self-- but if it's just going to be trivia, your shoes, your Coke, your moving lips, then forget it--I'm serious-- just forget the whole thing. --Mark Halliday. *Tasker Street*. U Mass Press, 1992. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From adead_poet at hotmail.com Wed May 14 15:45:42 2003 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:45:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for Message-ID: I'm looking for Wendell Berry's essay from The Hudson Review "The Specialization of Poetry". Could anyone tell me if it is online anywhere, if not, if it is collected in any of Berry's books or any anthologies? Or which issue of Hudson Review it is in (i know 1975, but not sure after that)? Also, does anyone have a copy of Jack Bulter's poem "Attack of the Zombie Poets" that they could post? Or tell me what book or journal to find it in? thanks, jason _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed May 14 15:52:41 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:52:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Berry's essay is collected in his book *Standing By Words* (North Point, 1983). It also appeared, as I recall, in an anthology edited by Reginald Gibbons called *The Poet's Work*. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > From: "jason huff" > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:45:42 -0500 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for > > I'm looking for Wendell Berry's essay from The Hudson Review "The > Specialization of Poetry". Could anyone tell me if it is online anywhere, if > not, if it is collected in any of Berry's books or any anthologies? Or which > issue of Hudson Review it is in (i know 1975, but not sure after that)? > > Also, does anyone have a copy of Jack Bulter's poem "Attack of the Zombie > Poets" that they could post? Or tell me what book or journal to find it in? > > thanks, > jason > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed May 14 15:54:36 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:54:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frederick Morgan Message-ID: The Shamrock "I've great days then godawful ones-- I'm in heaven, then deep in the pits-- I' try to take them all in stride without losing my wits but just can't get the hang of it!" That's what Tim said one night in the Shamrock grill off Lexington. The bottles were burning bright, the juke-box aglow as the Clancy Brothers belted out "Finnegans Wake" and I stood at the bar drinking Bushmill's with Timmy for old time's sake. "Confucius said that at seventy he'd 'achieved an unperturbed mind.' Me now, I'm only sixty-six-- do you think I might still have time?" It was there at the bar three months later I had word that Tim was dead, and downed a last glass in his honor before walking home to bed. --Frederick Morgan. *The One Abiding*. Story Line Press, 2003. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From adead_poet at hotmail.com Thu May 15 09:57:32 2003 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:57:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poem Message-ID: I'm glad to see that the prose poem is all of a sudden getting all this attention. It's something I've recently become interested in. Of all these prose poem anthologies that have come out, has anyone red enough of them to make a recommendation as to which one to get? Also, in a recent issue of APR, there was an excerpt from Fenton's new intro to poetry. Has anyone read that yet? What i read looked pretty good, but I'm not sure if it is worth picking up or if the excerpt was enough. jason >From: David Graham >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Great American Prose Poem >Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 11:02:03 -0500 > >Catching up with my big stack of accumulated journals, I discover that >David >Lehman's introduction to his new prose poem anthology is printed in the >March/April *APR*. The intro makes me all the more eager to see the book, >and reminds me how much I like Lehman's own critical prose. > >Lehman's essay gives a brief & fine historical summary of the genre, along >with one of the better discussions I've seen of its inherently problematic >nature. Quoting Charles Simic: "The prose poem is the result of two >contradictory impulses, prose and poetry, and therefore cannot exist, but >it >does." > >I learn in this article that Lehman did his PhD dissertation on the prose >poem, focusing on Oscar Wilde, Gertrude Stein, W.H. Auden, and John >Ashbery. > >Here's a snippet in which Lehman is discussing Ashbery's "A Nice >Presentation": > >"The sentences embody reversal and hesitation; they suggest a kind of logic >but mostly they reveal that logic is an illusion. They enact a paradox: >that one can be in perpetual motion while remaining stationary, as the mind >of a perennial fence-sitter may race from one thought to the next." > >That seems to hit the nail on the head, not just about this poem but about >the enduring appeal and irritation I find in Ashbery more generally. There >is both charm and tedium implied, I'd say, in "a perennial fence-sitter >[whose mind] may race from one thought to the next." At least that's how I >take Ashbery: Lehman & others find more charm than tedium, while for me >it's often vice versa. > > > >==================================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >==================================================== > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From halvard at earthlink.net Fri May 16 09:23:43 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:23:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "Little Fascist Sonnet" Message-ID: LITTLE FASCIST SONNET THEY TOOK MY BABY! MY BABY DIED OF BRUISES! MY ROTTEN WIFE GOT MY BABY! MY LOUSY HUSBAND GOT MY BABY! WE'RE A PERFECT FAMILY! I'M A PERFECT FATHER! I'M A PERFECT MOTHER! I DON'T FUCK MY BABY! I WANT MY BABY BACK! I WANT MY BABY BACK! I DON'T FUCK MY HUSBAND! I DON'T FUCK MY WIFE! SHUT UP YOU KID! SHUT UP YOU KID! --Alan Sondheim @ http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt/Uncanny Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From mbyrne at risd.edu Fri May 16 09:40:39 2003 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 09:40:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "Little Fascist Sonnet" Message-ID: Alan Sondheim is a national treasure. He is the Mount Rushmore and Grand Canyon of American poets; also the Vietnam Vets Memorial; also the McDonalds; also the Oprah; also the styrofoam; also the disposable cutlery; also the weather; also the sun. Mair?ad Byrne Assistant Professor of English Rhode Island School of Design Providence, RI 02903 www.wildhoneypress.com www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> halvard at earthlink.net 05/16/03 09:27 AM >>> LITTLE FASCIST SONNET THEY TOOK MY BABY! MY BABY DIED OF BRUISES! MY ROTTEN WIFE GOT MY BABY! MY LOUSY HUSBAND GOT MY BABY! WE'RE A PERFECT FAMILY! I'M A PERFECT FATHER! I'M A PERFECT MOTHER! I DON'T FUCK MY BABY! I WANT MY BABY BACK! I WANT MY BABY BACK! I DON'T FUCK MY HUSBAND! I DON'T FUCK MY WIFE! SHUT UP YOU KID! SHUT UP YOU KID! --Alan Sondheim @ http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt/Uncanny Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Fri May 16 10:15:01 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:15:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "LittleFascist Sonnet" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mair?ad, you're just so damned cute when you get all excited. I agree, btw, but Sondheim's much more than all that. Want another? Hal { Alan Sondheim is a national treasure. He is the Mount Rushmore and Grand Canyon of American poets; also the Vietnam { Vets Memorial; also the McDonalds; also the Oprah; also the styrofoam; also the disposable cutlery; also the weather; { also the sun. { { { Mair?ad Byrne { Assistant Professor of English { Rhode Island School of Design { Providence, RI 02903 { www.wildhoneypress.com { www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com { >>> halvard at earthlink.net 05/16/03 09:27 AM >>> { { LITTLE FASCIST SONNET { { THEY TOOK MY BABY! { MY BABY DIED OF BRUISES! { MY ROTTEN WIFE GOT MY BABY! { MY LOUSY HUSBAND GOT MY BABY! { { WE'RE A PERFECT FAMILY! { I'M A PERFECT FATHER! { I'M A PERFECT MOTHER! { I DON'T FUCK MY BABY! { { I WANT MY BABY BACK! { I WANT MY BABY BACK! { I DON'T FUCK MY HUSBAND! { I DON'T FUCK MY WIFE! { { SHUT UP YOU KID! { SHUT UP YOU KID! { { --Alan Sondheim { @ http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt/Uncanny { { { Hal { { Halvard Johnson { =============== { email: halvard at earthlink.net { website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mbyrne at risd.edu Fri May 16 10:21:58 2003 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 10:21:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "LittleFascist Sonnet" Message-ID: Okay he's cosmic. Goddammit I thought America would be enough. Another is one thing you don't have to ask for with Sondheim. Mairead Mair?ad Byrne Assistant Professor of English Rhode Island School of Design Providence, RI 02903 www.wildhoneypress.com www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> halvard at earthlink.net 05/16/03 10:17 AM >>> Mair?ad, you're just so damned cute when you get all excited. I agree, btw, but Sondheim's much more than all that. Want another? Hal { Alan Sondheim is a national treasure. He is the Mount Rushmore and Grand Canyon of American poets; also the Vietnam { Vets Memorial; also the McDonalds; also the Oprah; also the styrofoam; also the disposable cutlery; also the weather; { also the sun. { { { Mair?ad Byrne { Assistant Professor of English { Rhode Island School of Design { Providence, RI 02903 { www.wildhoneypress.com { www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com { >>> halvard at earthlink.net 05/16/03 09:27 AM >>> { { LITTLE FASCIST SONNET { { THEY TOOK MY BABY! { MY BABY DIED OF BRUISES! { MY ROTTEN WIFE GOT MY BABY! { MY LOUSY HUSBAND GOT MY BABY! { { WE'RE A PERFECT FAMILY! { I'M A PERFECT FATHER! { I'M A PERFECT MOTHER! { I DON'T FUCK MY BABY! { { I WANT MY BABY BACK! { I WANT MY BABY BACK! { I DON'T FUCK MY HUSBAND! { I DON'T FUCK MY WIFE! { { SHUT UP YOU KID! { SHUT UP YOU KID! { { --Alan Sondheim { @ http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt/Uncanny { { { Hal { { Halvard Johnson { =============== { email: halvard at earthlink.net { website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From hruggier at localnet.com Fri May 16 11:44:28 2003 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:44:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] PLACES THAT GRANT DEGREES Message-ID: <3EC5075C.53803F63@localnet.com> Wow, I forget who wanted to know about places to get a quickie degree for knowledge already accumulated, but in New York State - Empire State College might be the place to try. There are outposts all over the state - try your nearest college. Good luck and if it works, let me know. H. Ruggieri From halvard at earthlink.net Fri May 16 11:19:02 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:19:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Rihaku, "Lament of the Frontier Guard" Message-ID: Lament of the Frontier Guard By the North Gate, the wind blows full of sand, Lonely from the beginning of time until now! Trees fall, the grass goes yellow with autumn. I climb the towers and towers to watch out the barbarous land: Desolate castle, the sky, the wide desert. There is no wall left to this village. Bones white with a thousand frosts, High heaps, covered with trees and grass; Who brought this to pass? Who has brought the flaming imperial anger? Who has brought the army with drums and with kettle-drums? Barbarous kings. A gracious spring, turned to blood-ravenous autumn, A turmoil of wars-men, spread over the middle kingdom, Three hundred and sixty thousand, And sorrow, sorrow like rain. Sorrow to go, and sorrow, sorrow returning. Desolate, desolate fields, And no children of warfare upon them, No longer the men for offence and defence. Ah, how shall you know the dreary sorrow at the North Gate, With Rihaku's name forgotten, And we guardsmen fed to the tigers. --Rihaku, 8thC; tr. Ezra Pound fr. *Ezra Pound: Translations* [New York: New Directions, 1963] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From GrahamD at ripon.edu Fri May 16 12:06:01 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:06:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sondheim, "Little Fascist Sonnet" Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479FFF@mail.ripon.edu> Just curious: is this Sondheim poem perhaps an example of that "postmodernism" I've been hearing so much about? I think I might have been a postmodernist in college without knowing it. This was a while ago, and time has dimmed the memory, of course. In any case, someone claiming to be me wrote a paper which defined irony as "humor that is not funny," and then couldn't understand quite why the professor got so excited about the concept. "I" was just blowing smoke. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: Mairead Byrne > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 8:40 AM > To: halvard at earthlink.net; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "Little > Fascist Sonnet" > > Alan Sondheim is a national treasure. He is the Mount Rushmore and Grand > Canyon of American poets; also the Vietnam Vets Memorial; also the > McDonalds; also the Oprah; also the styrofoam; also the disposable > cutlery; also the weather; also the sun. > > > Mair?ad Byrne > Assistant Professor of English > Rhode Island School of Design > Providence, RI 02903 > www.wildhoneypress.com > www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com > >>> halvard at earthlink.net 05/16/03 09:27 AM >>> > > LITTLE FASCIST SONNET > > THEY TOOK MY BABY! > MY BABY DIED OF BRUISES! > MY ROTTEN WIFE GOT MY BABY! > MY LOUSY HUSBAND GOT MY BABY! > > WE'RE A PERFECT FAMILY! > I'M A PERFECT FATHER! > I'M A PERFECT MOTHER! > I DON'T FUCK MY BABY! > > I WANT MY BABY BACK! > I WANT MY BABY BACK! > I DON'T FUCK MY HUSBAND! > I DON'T FUCK MY WIFE! > > SHUT UP YOU KID! > SHUT UP YOU KID! > > --Alan Sondheim > @ http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt/Uncanny > > From hruggier at localnet.com Fri May 16 12:41:54 2003 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:41:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] SUMMER WRITING GATHERING Message-ID: <3EC514D2.BDD3BD15@localnet.com> Dear Friends, Saginaw Valley State University is the setting for a unique summer writing program where you can relax, meet friends, influence people, recharge. The cost is very low and the ambiance is high. For full information, please go to http://mayapplepress.com/rustbelt Helen Ruggieri -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Judith Kerman" Subject: Re: Take a look? Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 23:48:18 -0400 Size: 1768 URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Fri May 16 12:34:08 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 12:34:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "Little Fascist Sonnet of Protection" Message-ID: LITTLE FASCIST SONNET OF PROTECTION MY LITTLE BRAVE ONE STAND UP SO HIGH YOU WOULD NOT HAVE COME THROUGH A PAST ALIVE YOU COULD BE KILLED BY PILLS TV AND RAP AND ROLL YOU WOULD BE THRILLED TO DIE BY PLANES OR CARS YOU COULD NOT BE WEARING SEAT BELTS DRINKING HEAVY DRINK YOU WOULD BE SWUNG ON SWINGS WITHOUT RESTRAINING STRAPS YOU COULD NOT BE V-CHIPPED UNDER LOCK AND KEY PROTECTION YOU WOULD NOT HAVE PROZAC XANAX VALIUM AND IN NO WAY YOU COULD SURVIVE A PAST ALIVE WITHOUT LAW ANGEL GUARDING YOU WOULD HAVE DIED FROM FROM CLASSICS UGLY STORIES YOU COULD HAVE DIED FROM UGLY SEXY PICTURES VIOLENT UGLY YOU WOULD BE RAPED BY TEACHER PRIEST AND COLORED INTERNET YOU COULD BE HOME ALONE MY LITTLE FUTURE NATION! YOU WOULD BE FUTURE NATION FUTURE MY BRAVE AND FUTURE NATION! --Alan Sondheim @ http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt/Uncanny Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri May 16 13:20:50 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:20:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Sondheim, "Little Fascist Sonnet" Message-ID: <4f.2eefe2c3.2bf677f2@cs.com> In a message dated 5/16/2003 11:16:37 AM Central Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > Just curious: is this Sondheim poem perhaps an example of that > "postmodernism" I've been hearing so much about? > > I think I might have been a postmodernist in college without knowing it. > This was a while ago, and time has dimmed the memory, of course. In any > case, someone claiming to be me wrote a paper which defined irony as "humor > that is not funny," and then couldn't understand quite why the professor > got > so excited about the concept. "I" was just blowing smoke. > You should be concerned and should seek out a qualified Ph. D. to determine whether or not you have any of the six warning signs of postmodernism. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adead_poet at hotmail.com Fri May 16 16:52:36 2003 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 15:52:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] books Message-ID: i'm wondering if anyone has read these books: The Wild Awake by Paulann Peterson, Lost River by James Tate, or The English Elegy by Peter Sacks. I'm thinking about picking them up, and i'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on them. thanks jason _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat May 17 11:07:29 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:07:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] PLACES THAT GRANT DEGREES References: <3EC5075C.53803F63@localnet.com> Message-ID: <005301c31c8a$1ad77be0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Helem -- thanks. It was me, and I live in NY state. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen Ruggieri" To: Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 11:44 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] PLACES THAT GRANT DEGREES > Wow, I forget who wanted to know about places to get a quickie degree > for knowledge already accumulated, but in New York State - Empire State > College might be the place to try. There are > outposts all over the state - try your nearest college. > > Good luck and if it works, let me know. > > H. Ruggieri > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Sat May 17 12:13:48 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 12:13:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI: Creative Writing Programs Message-ID: <000a01c31c8f$4c69a980$fb3d1f43@computer> Here's a piece on creative writing programs from this ayem's NYT. Let's hear it for Tim O'Brien Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========= May 17, 2003 More Students in Writing Programs Expect (and Get) Hollywood Offers By GREGORY JORDAN Once upon a time, students in graduate fiction writing programs dreamed of publishing stories in obscure Midwestern literary quarterlies with readerships that could all fit into a Volkswagen. Then, with a lot of hard work and a lot of luck, someday, maybe, they might have something published in Harper's or even The New Yorker. But today these students and their increasingly preprofessional programs have much grander ambitions, aiming for a published novel or a Hollywood contract. What's more, they are getting them. In the last five years, for example, recent graduates of the fiction writing program at the University of California at Irvine have published 10 first novels, two short-story collections and one memoir, and have had six screenplays optioned by Hollywood studios. "The growth of these programs is a function of the amazing number of first-book contracts and film options that are making some young writers rich," said Tamara Strauss, editor of Zoetrope: All-Story, a magazine owned by Francis Ford Coppola that publishes stories with the goal of turning them into films. "About 40 percent of the 600 to 1,000 manuscripts we receive each quarter come from students in these programs." While Ms. Strauss said that there were too many programs and that they produced too many predictable first-person narratives, she added that some universities, like Iowa, Columbia and Stanford, had become "a priority read." "It is undeniable that certain programs repeatedly produce a quality in writing that, I think, is energizing American literature," she said. Universities and colleges have realized that creative writing programs can offer payoffs for them as well. With low overhead, they can be big moneymakers (tuition can run as high as $30,000 a year), attracting students, celebrity writers and publicity. Some institutions even try to give these programs marquee status akin to that of respected law or medical schools. The program at Southwest Texas State University in San Marcos, Tex., for example, has built a $4 million endowment and hired the acclaimed novelist Tim O'Brien to teach one semester every other year for a salary of $120,000. The vision is to build a program that might rival the famed Iowa Writers' Workshop at the University of Iowa. In 1967, there were just 13 creative writing programs in the United States, according to the Writing Program Association. But the Iowa Writers' Workshop kept producing novelists like T. Coraghessen Boyle, Jane Smiley and Gail Godwin, and the programs took off. The 330 today receive about 20,000 applications and enroll about 4,000 students. Administrators note the sharpest growth in applications at places with famous teachers who attract students seeking publishing and screenwriting success. Nicole DeSalle, 28, a student at Southwest Texas State, said she had been attracted to studying with writers like Mr. O'Brien and gaining entree to the publishing world. Students receive "a lot of opportunities to get published that we wouldn't be aware of otherwise," she said. "We get information about agents and publishing companies," she continued. "We regularly get e-mails and flyers for new journals coming out all the time. It's all here at your fingertips. It's an ongoing battle if you should sell out and become a screenwriter, but most of my friends are diehard book people." The students' ambition rarely leads them to television writing. Elitism toward the medium, or plain disinterest, seems to account for this. The University of California at Irvine claims alumni like Alice Sebold, author of the best-selling first novel "The Lovely Bones" and a memoir, "Lucky"; David Benioff, the writer of several lucrative screenplays, like the forthcoming "Stay," for which he was paid $1.8 million; and Glen David Gold, whose debut as a novelist was "Carter Beats the Devil." "It was great to enter a false world for a few years, where writing was the supreme thing," said Ms. Sebold, whose "Lovely Bones" was her thesis and who studied and taught at Irvine from 1995 through 1999. She says that the program's director for the last seven years, Geoffrey Wolff, tries hard to keep it pure but that "we are living in the shadow of Hollywood." She added: "I was stunned at how students talked about movies when we went out to dinner, when I was expecting them to talk about novels. There is big money in Hollywood, and it lures away really good minds." Mr. Benioff, who used workshops at Irvine to write "The 25th Hour," a novel that recently became a Spike Lee movie, said: "Thirty years ago, students probably wanted to be the next great novelist. Now many want to write the next great screenplay. But Geoffrey keeps film out of the workshop. I had the best editors of my life as my fellow students. Sure, film is something young writers think about, but I never thought I would write a screenplay until I finished at Irvine." Joshua Ferris, a 28-year-old Irvine student, said predecessors like Ms. Sebold and Mr. Benioff set the bar for current students. "The amount of talent that has come out of the program certainly makes our futures easier in terms of getting noticed," he said. "They established a certain expectation. Their success has a snowballing effect." Mr. Wolff, whose books include the autobiography "The Duke of Deception," and the novel "The Age of Consent," said his distaste for exorbitant tuitions, debt-ridden students and shabby teaching at many big-name programs persuaded him to develop a course of study that undermined the traditional model. Between fellowships and teaching jobs, he said, students at Irvine incur little debt during two to three years in the program. Mr. Wolff hires visiting professors, like Margot Livesey and Jim Shepard, who are as renowned for their teaching skills as for their books. And the program does not advertise. Southwest Texas State took an entrepreneurial approach to its program. Tom Grimes, the author and former New York businessman who directs it, recognized the draw of high-profile teachers and a boutiquelike setting, where the program is essentially the campus's main event. "The administration realized what we could do for its stature with this program," he said, "and students realize this is a unique opportunity to learn from great writers committed to teaching." Mr. Grimes helped raise the funds to restore the nearby Katherine Anne Porter House, which offers a literary center. In addition to helping establish the endowment and Mr. O'Brien's teaching chair, Mr. Grimes, whose books include "City of God" and "WILL at epicqwest.com," built a community teaching and tutoring center. He also developed an elite list of thesis readers that includes Rick Bass and Rick DeMarinis. Mr. Grimes's strategy required a commitment from the university to develop what its president, Denise M. Trauth, calls "a fundamental program for this university as we build our national reputation." Mr. O'Brien was an important hire for Mr. Grimes, a product of the Iowa Writers' Workshop himself. "The word Texas scared me, but it was a lot of money," Mr. O'Brien said. "They just have this phenomenal institutional support. Not long ago, I didn't know what these programs were, and I only planned to stay a year. But the program has great momentum now." The programs' success, however, has drawn some criticism from academics and writers who are concerned about a growing professional-school mentality and the influence screenwriting and film options have on aspiring writers. "Many students are deciding to come at film from these programs, as if from an indirect position of power," said Mr. Shepard, author of books like the short-story collection "Batting Against Castro" and "Nosferatu." "And many programs are accepting or accommodating themselves to the disturbing notion that students will arrive with much less knowledge about literature. As there probably is everywhere else, there's a declining level of literacy at M.F.A. programs. If you go into a classroom and ask who's read Michael Cunningham's `The Hours,' half the students will raise their hands and say they've seen the movie. All of these students are interested in writing books. But more and more are finding it hard to keep their eyes off the brass ring that film represents." Paul Schrader, who wrote and directed "American Gigolo" and "Affliction" (adapted from Russell Banks's novel), and also wrote movies like "Taxi Driver" and "Raging Bull," said more literature was being written "to be film-friendly." "When I was a student, the writer Robert Coover said the goal should be to write a novel that cannot be adapted to film," he said. "I doubt any student aspires to that today. I suppose these writing programs now resemble film school, a mad cancer putting out more and more people. I was once asked to run the film school at Columbia, and I said I wanted to winnow people out. The school said: `You can't do that. We make money for the university.' Writing programs are doing the same thing." But like it or not, creative writing programs have become forces on the literary landscape. As Mr. Wolff said: "Most writers of my generation didn't pass through one of these programs, and as a young writer I certainly looked askance at them. And, yes, many universities treat them as cash cows, which I find repulsive. Somehow a huge number of people believe the myth that they'll get into a top program, and it will change their lives forever. I've taught at Columbia, and there's a huge tension in the room where there are a few students with a $30,000-a-year fellowship, and the rest of the room is paying $30,000." "But at the same time," he added, "it has struck me that it's the best time I've ever known to be a young writer. There has always been a myth that first books are in hard times. But today all acquisition editors are looking for something new and put an outsized value on the new. The best programs provide an ideal apprenticeship for young writers." From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Sat May 17 12:47:12 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 12:47:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] new site: "My Angie Dickinson" In-Reply-To: <000a01c31c8f$4c69a980$fb3d1f43@computer> References: <000a01c31c8f$4c69a980$fb3d1f43@computer> Message-ID: <1053190032.3ec667903b3df@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Hi all, My ongoing serial poem "My Angie Dickinson" - part of the Mainstream Poetry collaborative project (www.mainstreampoetry.com) - has moved to its own site: http://myangiedickinson.blogspot.com Poems 1-30 are currently posted. Check back frequently for updates. -m. From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Sun May 18 19:36:34 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 03 19:36:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "Little Fascist Sonnet" Message-ID: <200305182342.h4INgDqv096142@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> Y'all should know that the "caps lock" key will also unlock. Richard LITTLE FASCIST SONNET OF PROTECTION MY LITTLE BRAVE ONE STAND UP SO HIGH YOU WOULD NOT HAVE COME THROUGH A PAST ALIVE YOU COULD BE KILLED BY PILLS TV AND RAP AND ROLL YOU WOULD BE THRILLED TO DIE BY PLANES OR CARS YOU COULD NOT BE WEARING SEAT BELTS DRINKING HEAVY DRINK YOU WOULD BE SWUNG ON SWINGS WITHOUT RESTRAINING STRAPS YOU COULD NOT BE V-CHIPPED UNDER LOCK AND KEY PROTECTION YOU WOULD NOT HAVE PROZAC XANAX VALIUM AND IN NO WAY YOU COULD SURVIVE A PAST ALIVE WITHOUT LAW ANGEL GUARDING YOU WOULD HAVE DIED FROM FROM CLASSICS UGLY STORIES YOU COULD HAVE DIED FROM UGLY SEXY PICTURES VIOLENT UGLY YOU WOULD BE RAPED BY TEACHER PRIEST AND COLORED INTERNET YOU COULD BE HOME ALONE MY LITTLE FUTURE NATION! YOU WOULD BE FUTURE NATION FUTURE MY BRAVE AND FUTURE NATION! From JforJames at aol.com Sun May 18 21:11:13 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 21:11:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Halliday Message-ID: <67.10e47b62.2bf98931@aol.com> That's showing the second/third gen NY Poets how it's done... Finnegan In a message dated 5/14/03 3:39:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > Sax's and Selves > > > I saw you going into Sax's Steak Sandwiches > but what were you thinking? > It was a hot day, the downtown traffic > smashed itself right thru, right thru. > People wore their primary colors and > touched the doors and parking meters > and bottles and quarters and steering wheels > and the hold-on bars in bouncing busses > with tough hands, tools made of tough skin. > The sun was some ten degrees hotter than > anybody expected, this being not yet summer, > people folded their jackets and went to deal. > You must have been dealing too, > but what were you dealing with? > You came out of Sax's Steak Sandwiches > with a large Coke to go, > straw stuck thru plastic lid, > but what were you contemplating? > There was sweat in all armpits, > three ten-year-old boys had a hardball, > one of them shouted "Up your ass" > and laughed. Fifteen blocks away > an enormous insurance building glittered > with its violent impregnability in the hot sky. > It was real, as real as the hot yellow gas truck, > which was as real as the spice in Sax's chili, > and so were you no doubt but > > what was your real point? > I mean what did you add up to? > You caught the Dudley bus > and sat next to a blind young man > whose fingers flickered every minute or so > in something like a diffident farewell to > someone important who might not return > for a long time. Staring > at the fingernails of the rider across from you, > you tapped your foot to a song called "Staying Alive" > from a black girl's huge radio-- > and you may even have hummed along > while sucking ice from your tall cup-- > however, the song's meaning for you > is not apparent; > and I don't know > why you got off where you did, > chucking your drained cup in a dumpster, > rolling up your sleeves as you passed the Purity Supreme. . . > I know exactly *where* you got off > and how hot the air was > > but damn you! What were you *thinking*? > I've tried, I've tried to figure it > but it comes out different each time and > I can't be bothered--really, > if you have some hang-up about Being Mysterious > it's not my problem. So unless > you're willing to give me a clue-- > just the general area, the basic subject, > something to get started is all, > you don't have to fork over your whole self-- > but if it's just going to be trivia, > your shoes, your Coke, your moving lips, > then forget it--I'm serious-- > just forget the whole thing. > > > --Mark Halliday. *Tasker Street*. U Mass Press, 1992. > From mandolin at mac.com Mon May 19 07:18:33 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 07:18:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Little Fascist Sonnet" Message-ID: <6661078.1053343113097.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Sunday, May 18, 2003, at 07:36PM, wrote: >Y'all should know that the "caps lock" key will also >unlock. > But on post-modern keyboards the cap lock key is randomly assigned every 3rs Tuesday. From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon May 19 07:44:53 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 07:44:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] On Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000001c31dfc$14c90bb0$1072ed41@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Rodney Koeneke: another reading of Fanny Howe's Doubt Kit Robinson reading Merrill Gilfillan's "Bull Run in October" Nate Dorward in defense of Charles Tomlinson Genre & expectation Fanny Howe's "Doubt" Rob Halpern on Aloysius Bertrand & the problem of intention at the origin of the prose poem Charles Bernstein's "In Particular" Two new books from Kristin Prevallet Blogging notes Joel Bettridge's Shores: Following the logic of the poem David Markson's marvelous This is Not a Novel (Is so!) Graham Foust's 6 & a note on his comments re my reading of Spicer (remembering Frederick Bock) Merrill Gilfillan's "Bull Run in October" amid the riches of The Poker 2 Who is Charles Tomlinson: a cautionary tale Blogs & links: beyond the inner circle http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From halvard at earthlink.net Mon May 19 08:51:38 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 08:51:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Lars Gustafsson, "The Machines" Message-ID: The Machines Some machines came early, others, late. Outside their own time, the world doesn't really have room for them. Heron's fountain, atl-atl, voltaic pile. The famed mine shaft machinery in Falun. Curiosities: The "pneumatic corn-sweep" *Una macchina per riscaldare i piedi* The machines that we notice are those from another century: they seem to be placeless. They become obvious, take on meaning. Yet just what they mean, nobody knows. The hydraulic mine device: an apparatus with two shafts, which run in opposite directions, made to convey force out over great distances. What does the hydraulic mine device mean? *The mines in the Harz anno 1723* The lithograph swarms with people. Men, as tiny as flies, ride up and down in the baskets. And next to the foaming waterfall, illustration figure *j*, "La Grande Machine," which runs all the drive-belts. It would indeed be conceivable that steam engine and general-mechanical-instrument, Heron's fountain and voltaic pile might all be combined. No one has done it. Residue of possibilities. A foreign language that no one has ever spoken. And, strictly speaking, grammar itself is another machine, emitting, from the midst of innumerable sequences, the mutter of communication: "instruments of reproduction," the "procreative numbers" "outcries," "stifled whispers." When the words disappear, the grammar remains, and that's what we call: a machine. Yet what it means, nobody knows. A foreign language. A totally foreign language. A totally foreign language. A totally foreign language. The lithograph swarms with people. Words, as tiny as flies, ride up and down in the baskets, and next to the foaming waterfall, illustration figure *j*, "La Grande Machine," which runs all the drive-belts. --Lars Gustafsson, tr. Harriett Watts from *Journey to the Center of the Earth*, 1966 in *The Stillness of the World before Bach* [New York: New Directions, 1988] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon May 19 13:44:06 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:44:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 5/14/03 2:45 PM, jason huff at adead_poet at hotmail.com wrote: > I'm looking for Wendell Berry's essay from The Hudson Review "The > Specialization of Poetry". Could anyone tell me if it is online anywhere, if > not, if it is collected in any of Berry's books or any anthologies? Or which > issue of Hudson Review it is in (i know 1975, but not sure after that)? > > Also, does anyone have a copy of Jack Bulter's poem "Attack of the Zombie > Poets" that they could post? Or tell me what book or journal to find it in? > > thanks, > jason > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > Jason, Jack Butler's poem "Attack of the Zombie Poets" is in his poetry collection *The Kid Who Wanted to Be a Spaceman* (August House). Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From chris at chrislott.org Mon May 19 13:58:04 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 09:58:04 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs Message-ID: <05eb01c31e30$34fcebc0$5b15e589@TECH> I guess I should say "blogs" or, since I want to be even hipper, maybe take the next evolutionary step and contract the contraction to "ogs" -- Anyway, while peering around at various poetry weblogs I found this description of the poetry weblog phenomenon by (I am guessing), New-Poetry's own Michael Snider: "They have a curious flavor for someone like me, who's never lived in a major cultural center. There's a lot of gossip and something very much like flirting going on; there are readings and concerts and shows and stories about them and who was there and who couldn't make it; everyone is excited, reading each other's blogs and poems. Would I write more poems in such an environment? Southern Maryland, only an hour and a half from DC, seems hopelessly provincial." There's always been a strong incestous bent to the whole weblogging phenomenon. It was clear to me in the beginning because weblogging was a geek venture and my job demanded I be a professional geek... so the patterns of bloggers writing to/for/about other bloggers and their sites was obvious to me. I like weblogs and the idea of them, but I don't care that much for the whole circle-jerking cliquishness that permeates many of them. But Mike Snider put his finger squarely on the same phenomenon in poetry weblogs-- only the sphere of the subject is ever so much smaller and it makes the whole thing that much stranger. I think it's great that there is room for a grassroots push, but doesn't the whole thing get a little tiresome when the discussions continually revolve around the same group of 20 poets that only those 20 poets have heard of (and those people who happen to live within 10 miles of them to have a chance of getting their hands on the subjects' latest mimeographed chapbook)? I know I am just a hick from the Northern sticks. Where I live makes Southern Maryland look like Greenwich Village in the 60s. But I do read poetry. A lot of it, in fact. Why is it that I have never heard of most of these folks... and why do they keep appearing throughout this same group of weblogs and nowhere else? Where is all the discussion about poets who are putting out books and who remain a subject of discussion on writing and poetry lists and groups like this one but are nowhere to be found in all the poetry weblogs that are linked to one another? One other aspect of the poetry blog renaissance that very clearly follows the patterns of the initial weblog phenomenon is that most of the writers have to know that only their friends will be able to follow half the conversations, given that they are full of inside references, but the exact relationship between many of the people is never made clear. Instead they still attempt to write in a tone as if they are not writing about their friends, lovers, relatives, and spouses. It is rather strange. But what do I know. I'm just a poetry fan living in the middle of nowhere. c -- Chris Lott From kellogg at duke.edu Mon May 19 14:22:21 2003 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:22:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19751964.1053354141@rdu57-253-143.nc.rr.com> Jason, "The Specialization of Poetry" is the first essay, I think, in Berry's book _Standing by Words_ (North Point, 1983). David --On Monday, May 19, 2003 12:44 PM -0500 Paul Lake wrote: > on 5/14/03 2:45 PM, jason huff at adead_poet at hotmail.com wrote: > >> I'm looking for Wendell Berry's essay from The Hudson Review "The >> Specialization of Poetry". Could anyone tell me if it is online >> anywhere, if not, if it is collected in any of Berry's books or any >> anthologies? Or which issue of Hudson Review it is in (i know 1975, but >> not sure after that)? >> >> Also, does anyone have a copy of Jack Bulter's poem "Attack of the Zombie >> Poets" that they could post? Or tell me what book or journal to find it >> in? >> >> thanks, >> jason >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. >> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> > Jason, Jack Butler's poem "Attack of the Zombie Poets" is in his poetry > collection *The Kid Who Wanted to Be a Spaceman* (August House). > > Paul Lake > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Cadaly at aol.com Mon May 19 14:40:59 2003 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:40:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Salt Authors Win Prizes Message-ID: <69.386307dd.2bfa7f3b@aol.com> STOP PRESS Jill Jones' "Screens Jets Heaven: New and Selected Poems" has just won the 2002 NSW Premier's Award. Kate Lilley's "Versary" has just won the 2002 Grace Leven Prize and the William Baylebridge Memorial Prize. Best wishes Chris _____________________________________________________ Chris Hamilton-Emery Editor Salt Publishing PO Box 937, Great Wilbraham PDO Cambridge, CB1 5JX, UK tel: +44 (0)1223 880929 (direct and voicemail) mobile: 07799 054889 email: cemery at saltpublishing.com web: http://www.saltpublishing.com ____________________________________________________ ** Geraldine Monk "Selected Poems" available now! ISBN 1876857692 ** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Mon May 19 15:57:26 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:57:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs In-Reply-To: <05eb01c31e30$34fcebc0$5b15e589@TECH> References: <05eb01c31e30$34fcebc0$5b15e589@TECH> Message-ID: <1053374246.3ec937268fc2a@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Quoting Chris Lott : > Why is it that I have never heard of most of > these folks... and why do they keep appearing throughout this same group of > weblogs and nowhere else? Where is all the discussion about poets who are > putting out books and who remain a subject of discussion on writing and > poetry lists and groups like this one but are nowhere to be found in all the > poetry weblogs that are linked to one another? > Chris, You've never heard of these "blogging" poets, it seems to me, because of that Balkanization we've occassionally spoke of on this list. Many of the bloggers I'm familiar with -- Gary Sullivan, Nada Gordon, Jordan Davis, Drew Gardner, Brian Kim Stefans ?? have books out. I myself have two books out. K. Silem Mohammad has two books due out this year: DEER HEAD NATION and A THOUSAND DEVILS. Other bloggers like Ron Silliman and Nick Piombino have numerous books out and available. All of the above publish frequently in journals such as New American Writing, Cross Cultural Poetics, CrossConnect, Lungfull!, Antennae, Kiosk, etc - very nice productions all and, again, available. The notion that blogging is somehow for those poets who can't (aren't good enough to?) get noticed elsewhere (is this what you're implying) simply doesn't hold water. -Mike, the fledgling blogger http://myangiedickinson.blogspot.com From chris at chrislott.org Mon May 19 16:23:49 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:23:49 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs References: <05eb01c31e30$34fcebc0$5b15e589@TECH> <1053374246.3ec937268fc2a@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <06ea01c31e45$d1353e10$5b15e589@TECH> On Monday, May 19, 2003 11:57 AM, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu spake thusly: > Chris, You've never heard of these "blogging" poets, it seems to me, > because of that Balkanization we've occassionally spoke of on this > list. Many of the bloggers I'm familiar with -- Gary Sullivan, Nada > Gordon, Jordan Davis, Drew Gardner, Brian Kim Stefans -- have books > out. I myself have two books out. K. Silem Mohammad has two books > due out this year: DEER HEAD NATION and A THOUSAND DEVILS. Other > bloggers like Ron Silliman and Nick Piombino have numerous books out > and available. All of the above publish frequently in journals such > as New American Writing, Cross Cultural Poetics, CrossConnect, > Lungfull!, Antennae, Kiosk, etc - very nice productions all and, > again, available. The notion that blogging is somehow for those > poets who can't (aren't good enough to?) get noticed elsewhere (is > this what you're implying) simply doesn't hold water. That's not what I am implying. What I am "implying" is that there is a large world of poetry only a very small subset of which seems to be discussed in most of the poetry weblogs that all seem to spend time talking about each other and not much more. Of course there are exceptions, both in particular entries in some of the sites and for a few sites in general. I am also implying that "they" write as if writing about strangers when they are, in many cases, friends/relatives/spouses-- a pretense at objectivity I find a little baffling and at times more than a little disingenous. It is by any reckoning exceedingly cliquish. My reference to publications is simply to the fact that if I go to a bookstore or a library and survey the shelves of poetry that are there, I see very few of these authors being discussed on these blogs but they ARE discussed on lists like these. Why are blogs relatively confined to one set of poets while places like this list are so much less so? Where the division comes from (and why) is the question. c -- Chris Lott From halvard at earthlink.net Mon May 19 16:57:23 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:57:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs In-Reply-To: <06ea01c31e45$d1353e10$5b15e589@TECH> Message-ID: { Why are blogs relatively confined to one set { of poets while places like this list are so much less so? Where the division { comes from (and why) is the question. { { c { -- { Chris Lott My guess, Chris, is that it's mainly because that "set of poets" have gotten their weblogs up and running, and most of us here on this list have not--out of sloth, lack of interest in doing so, whatever. I myself vacillate--one day thinking "Why should I?" The next day, thinking, "Why not?" So far, inertia wins the day. The process of setting one up, I gather, is easy and inexpensive. Free, even--unless I'm mistaken. As one who's started diaries/day books/journals on a number of occasions, I've never had one in which I've gotten past the first page. A diarist? A blogger? Maybe not. But who knows, maybe someday. Hal "Open the mirage that calls you." --Philip Lamantia Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon May 19 18:03:07 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs Message-ID: <20030519220307.BCD4D11EEC@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon May 19 18:03:29 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs Message-ID: <20030519220329.EFC38AB94@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon May 19 18:03:29 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs Message-ID: <20030519220329.68A82417C@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon May 19 18:03:35 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs Message-ID: <20030519220335.876273BC8@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon May 19 18:03:36 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs Message-ID: <20030519220336.2B9F5403A@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon May 19 18:03:32 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs Message-ID: <20030519220332.775A5AB96@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon May 19 18:03:46 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs Message-ID: <20030519220347.11BA8AB94@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon May 19 18:03:56 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs Message-ID: <20030519220356.8F1BAAB94@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon May 19 18:04:00 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs Message-ID: <20030519220400.7F4CD4922@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon May 19 18:04:07 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs Message-ID: <20030519220408.3FC594154@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Mon May 19 18:23:49 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 18:23:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs In-Reply-To: <20030519220408.3FC594154@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: Sssh, one response at a time, Bob. Hal { Chris, { { Blogs or Weblogs are personal web sites, and as such, their content is controlled solely by their individual owners. { { Bob { { Poetry Catamaran { { "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" { { Robert R. Cobb { AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. { http://rrcobb.tripod.com { { { --- "Chris Lott" wrote: { >On Monday, May 19, 2003 11:57 AM, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu { > spake thusly: { > { >> Chris, You've never heard of these "blogging" poets, it seems to me, { >> because of that Balkanization we've occassionally spoke of on this { >> list. Many of the bloggers I'm familiar with -- Gary Sullivan, Nada { >> Gordon, Jordan Davis, Drew Gardner, Brian Kim Stefans -- have books { >> out. I myself have two books out. K. Silem Mohammad has two books { >> due out this year: DEER HEAD NATION and A THOUSAND DEVILS. Other { >> bloggers like Ron Silliman and Nick Piombino have numerous books out { >> and available. All of the above publish frequently in journals such { >> as New American Writing, Cross Cultural Poetics, CrossConnect, { >> Lungfull!, Antennae, Kiosk, etc - very nice productions all and, { >> again, available. The notion that blogging is somehow for those { >> poets who can't (aren't good enough to?) get noticed elsewhere (is { >> this what you're implying) simply doesn't hold water. { > { >That's not what I am implying. { > { >What I am "implying" is that there is a large world of poetry only a very { >small subset of which seems to be discussed in most of the poetry weblogs { >that all seem to spend time talking about each other and not much more. Of { >course there are exceptions, both in particular entries in some of the sites { >and for a few sites in general. { > { >I am also implying that "they" write as if writing about strangers when they { >are, in many cases, friends/relatives/spouses-- a pretense at objectivity I { >find a little baffling and at times more than a little disingenous. It is by { >any reckoning exceedingly cliquish. { > { >My reference to publications is simply to the fact that if I go to a { >bookstore or a library and survey the shelves of poetry that are there, I { >see very few of these authors being discussed on these blogs but they ARE { >discussed on lists like these. Why are blogs relatively confined to one set { >of poets while places like this list are so much less so? Where the division { >comes from (and why) is the question. { > { >c { >-- { >Chris Lott { > { >_______________________________________________ { >New-Poetry mailing list { >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Mon May 19 18:35:42 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:35:42 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs References: <20030519220408.3FC594154@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <079101c31e56$fc980db0$5b15e589@TECH> On Monday, May 19, 2003 2:04 PM, CobbCoStudioArts spake thusly: > Chris, > > Blogs or Weblogs are personal web sites, and as such, their content > is controlled solely by their individual owners. Thanks (thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks :). I am aware of that. content of mailing lists is controlled solely by the contributors (short of controversial topics, I suppose). I just find it interesting that weblogs are, generally, so much more incestuous. Maybe when writing to a mailing list contributors are more aware that they are writing to the world, or perhaps they are just making more assumptions about posts to a mailing list being part of a "conversation" whereas weblog posts inhabit the gray area between conversations and screeds. Or maybe the really interesting conversation is being used up in person and in discussion groups and just not making it that far. I don't know. It's just an observation. c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Mon May 19 18:41:32 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 14:41:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs References: Message-ID: <07a301c31e57$cd302b60$5b15e589@TECH> On Monday, May 19, 2003 12:57 PM, Halvard Johnson spake thusly: > My guess, Chris, is that it's mainly because that "set of poets" > have gotten their weblogs up and running, and most of us here > on this list have not--out of sloth, lack of interest in doing so, > whatever. I myself vacillate--one day thinking "Why should > I?" The next day, thinking, "Why not?" So far, inertia wins > the day. But there is an interesting assumption in what you say, and that is that the poets who have gotten weblogs up and running* should/do feel some kind of pressure to refer to others who have done the same. We don't feel that kind of obligation on this list or in most bulletin board discussions. I think it is a strange phenomenon... * I've had something akin to a weblog on my own web site since long, long before the term "weblog" and "blog" made an appearance, but it is of no particular interest to anyone but myself, and completely unrelated to what I write in my own inconsistently kept journals and notebooks... c -- Chris Lott From halvard at earthlink.net Mon May 19 19:12:48 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:12:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs In-Reply-To: <07a301c31e57$cd302b60$5b15e589@TECH> Message-ID: { > My guess, Chris, is that it's mainly because that "set of poets" { > have gotten their weblogs up and running, and most of us here { > on this list have not--out of sloth, lack of interest in doing so, { > whatever. I myself vacillate--one day thinking "Why should { > I?" The next day, thinking, "Why not?" So far, inertia wins { > the day. { { But there is an interesting assumption in what you say, and that is that the { poets who have gotten weblogs up and running* should/do feel some kind of { pressure to refer to others who have done the same. We don't feel that kind { of obligation on this list or in most bulletin board discussions. I think it { is a strange phenomenon... Well, they're a very small part of the weblog world. Birds of a feather? Hal From halvard at earthlink.net Mon May 19 21:17:27 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:17:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: two poems by Lars Gustafsson Message-ID: <000e01c31e6d$939219c0$08151f43@computer> The Stillness of the World Before Bach There must have been a world before the Trio Sonata in D, a world before the A minor Partita, but what kind of a world? A Europe of vast empty spaces, unresounding, everywhere unawakened instruments where the *Musical Offering*, the *Well-tempered Clavier* never passed across the keys. Isolated churches where the soprano line of the *Passion* never in helpless love twined round the gentler movements of the flute, broad soft landscapes where nothing breaks the stillness but old woodcutters' axes, the healthy barking of strong dogs in winter and, like a bell, skates biting into fresh ice; the swallows whirring though summer air, the shell resounding at the child's ear and nowhere Bach nowhere Bach the world in a skater's stillness before Bach. --Lars Gustafsson, tr. Philip Martin from *The Stillness of the World before Bach*, 1983 Fragment I've always had a liking for fragments. The shred of papyrus, threadbare, brown as an autumn leaf in the park in spring. A philosopher quoted only once, and then imperfectly, distorted, by a very grudging patriarch, who can't hide the golden glow issuing from four words and a fifth which is conjectural. --Lars Gustafsson, tr. Christopher Middleton from *Birds*, 1984 both translations in *The Stillness of the World before Bach* [New York: New Directions, 1988] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From barry.spacks at verizon.net Mon May 19 22:01:00 2003 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 19:01:00 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Wisdom from Bob In-Reply-To: <200305192314.h4JNE4ST027144@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030519185834.00b7cf70@incoming.verizon.net> >Hall wrote: > >Sssh, one response at a time, Bob. > >Hal Patience, Hal. One must labor to be beautiful. B. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB at aol.com Mon May 19 23:07:27 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 23:07:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Announcement for those Los Angeles Folks on our List Message-ID: <18a.1a3c300d.2bfaf5ef@aol.com> Please come! THIS TUESDAY AT THE COBALT CAFE: ? ? Valley Contemporary Poets present MILLICENT C. BORGES. ? ? Tuesday, May 20, 2003, 9:00 evening ? ? 22047 Sherman Way, Canoga Park, California ? ? Just west of Topanga Canyon, and east of China ? ? Bring something to read in the OPEN READING ? ? seven minute time limit, one drink minimum ? ? Free MILLICENT C. BORGES ? ? Millicent C. Borges has received fellowships from the NEA, the ? ? California Arts Council, and the Barbara Deming Foundation--as well ? ? as residencies at Yaddo, Jentel and Vermont Studio.? Her work has ? ? appeared in over 50 literary publications including Laurel Review, ? ? Tampa Review, and New Letters and was nominated this year for a ? ? Pushcart Prize. ? ? Her work has been anthologized in Boomer Girls: Women Poets Come ? ? of Age (University of Iowa Press), To Honor a Teacher (Andrews ? ? McMeel), Naturally Yours, ClockPunchers: Prose and Poetry about ? ? the Workplace (Partisan Press).? She lives in Venice, CA and is ? ? self-employed as a technical writer and writing instructor.? She ? ? has received graduate degrees in English, literature and writing ? ? from CSULB and USC. BROADSIDE ? ? We will be publishing a broadsides of one of Millicent's poems which ? ? will? be available at the reading.? This is the 11th in the Cobalt ? ? Broadsides series and will be available for $1.00 and all of each ? ? one dollar will go to our featured guest.? You can view all of our ? ? previously published broadsides on the Cobalt Poets website at ? ? http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/cobalt UPCOMING READINGS AT THE COBALT CAFE ? ? May 20 - VCP* Presents MILLICENT BORGES + open reading ? ? May 27 - Cobalt 'classic' open reading ? ? June 3? - Featured Guest BUDDY WAKEFIELD + open reading ? ? June 10 - Featured Regular LESLIE MARYANN NEAL + open reading ? ? June 17 - VCP* Presents ANTHONY LEE + open reading ? ? June 24 - Cobalt 'classic' open reading ? ? * Valley Contemporary Poets Cobalt Poets: http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/cobalt -- Lupert: It's The Website - & - Poetry Super Highway ? ? ? ? ?? http://PoetrySuperHighway.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon May 19 23:21:05 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Weblogs Message-ID: <20030520032106.2AA934BCE@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue May 20 00:19:47 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:19:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] new pix References: <000e01c31e6d$939219c0$08151f43@computer> Message-ID: <00b101c31e87$0c5c4e20$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> New portraits on my site Sam Hamill E. Ethelbert Miller Jorie Graham Rae Armantrout Paul Goodman http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards From halvard at earthlink.net Tue May 20 07:21:01 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 07:21:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: two more poems by Lars Gustafsson Message-ID: Notes on the 1860s George Boole's book on the laws of thought appeared in 1844; that's three years before Baudelaire's *Les Fleurs du Mal*. In Boole's book the seed of the computer is to be found, the ticking relays, the vacuum tubes of the future. With charming innocence this algebra teaches us that every set has something in common with the "empty set." The empty set. In a dream I meet Baudelaire, small, transparent, dark shadows under his eyes, and I insist that he comment on Boole. He accepts that request as being altogether natural and starts with a quotation from the Marquis de Sade: "Nothing floods us with fear and lust so much as knowledge of the ticking relays, the vacuum tubes, murmurs that come from the hotter mineshafts of the future." All of a sudden he checks himself, as if he'd said too much. "Sir, we walk on ice polished by the wind. You understand? *We live in a time when the wind is rising.*" --Lars Gustafsson, tr. Christopher Middleton fr. *The Wright Brothers Look for Kitty Hawk*, 1968 The Decisive Battle . . . The decisive battle is not between power and power but between the swift and the sluggish, between mud and fire. The swiftness of the poets inside the circle of associations, inside the fire. They must always be one step ahead of censure as the mongoose is always a fraction faster than the rattlesnake. What in the end destroys the *lager* state, the guardian state, the police state is the swiftness of the living man. Like the best poets, or the great mathematicians--an Abel, a G?del, a Gauss-- the free man is like the swallows whirring in June around telegraph wires, and always a little ahead of the premises. Be in your own flight, never wait for the footsteps on the staircase. --Lars Gustafsson, tr. Philip Martin fr. *The Stillness of the World before Bach*, 1983 both translations from *The Stillness of the World Before Bach* [New York: New Directions, 1988] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue May 20 10:06:51 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:06:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ashcroft goes after 200 yr old human rights law Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030520090300.016fb2c8@mail.ilstu.edu> **Note: this has to do with poetry inasmuch as Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic, a plaintiff in a case brought by this law, was a poet and writer of children's books -- along with being a mass murderer. http://tinyurl.com/c7ge WASHINGTON, D.C., May 18 (OneWorld) - U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites) has launched a sweeping attack against a 214-year-old human rights law that has helped provide justice to Nazi Holocaust victims and peasants from Latin America and Asia. The law, the 1789 Alien Tort Claims Act (ATCA), has been used with increasing frequency over the past 24 years by victims of serious rights abuses committed overseas by foreign government leaders and senior military officials, as well as U.S. and foreign-owned corporations, to get a hearing before U.S. federal courts. Now, however, Ashcroft's Justice Department (news - web sites) has asked the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in California to effectively throw out all cases that deal with abuses that allegedly took place overseas, arguing that the law is "somewhat of a historical relic" that itself has been abused by plaintiffs to enforce international human rights laws and norms. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Tue May 20 12:54:26 2003 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 09:54:26 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hal plays Lars In-Reply-To: <200305201601.h4KG18ST009750@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030520094958.00b58d30@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:01 PM 5/20/2003 -0400, Hal posted poems by Lars Gustafsson and still it happens, poems that are by-God POEMS! (a tip of the hat to Lars & Hal) Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue May 20 15:25:23 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 14:25:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] MAINSTREAMPOETRY trouble Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030520142155.016101e8@mail.ilstu.edu> I am the trying to read the interview with Robert Pinsky, conducted by Todd Greenwald of _Maraudian_ at mainstreampoetry.blogspot but the the blogger prog has cut it off right after "In your introduction to Dante," the which bothers me. Could the captain or lieutenant of that website the reload it?g From adead_poet at hotmail.com Wed May 21 00:24:45 2003 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:24:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for two poems Message-ID: Does anyone have Lynn Emanuel's ?Frying Trout While Drunk? and Ai's ?Guadalajara Hospital? that they could post. Or let me know what journal or book they appear in. I've googled, but come up blank. You guys have been very helpful in the past, so I figure, I'll try these as well. Thanks, jason _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From cherrylaura at hotmail.com Wed May 21 09:50:10 2003 From: cherrylaura at hotmail.com (Laura Cherry) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:50:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for two poems Message-ID: Jason, "Frying Trout While Drunk" is in "Hotel Fiesta." One trick for locating a poem is to look up the poet's books on Amazon and then check out the Table of Contents -- it's often posted there. Laura Cherry >From: "jason huff" >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for two poems >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 23:24:45 -0500 > >Does anyone have Lynn Emanuel's ?Frying Trout While Drunk? and Ai's >?Guadalajara Hospital? that they could post. Or let me know what journal or >book they appear in. I've googled, but come up blank. You guys have been >very helpful in the past, so I figure, I'll try these as well. > >Thanks, >jason > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From halvard at earthlink.net Wed May 21 09:52:02 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 09:52:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hal plays Lars In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030520094958.00b58d30@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: Why, thank you, sir! Hal, not channeling Lars (who's still around to speak for himself last I heard) At 12:01 PM 5/20/2003 -0400, Hal posted poems by Lars Gustafsson and still it happens, poems that are by-God POEMS! (a tip of the hat to Lars & Hal) Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed May 21 11:05:12 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 11:05:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gustaf Sobin, "Tracing a Thirst" Message-ID: Tracing a Thirst for E.F. called it: tracing a thirst, the poem as it sluices a passage; with each, dry utterance, edges towards its own ob- fuscated source. no, not the world, the world's, but, per- haps, its very postulate. what the winds would lap, and the tongue, ultimately, muscle: breath, like so many empty bubbles, brought to that pleated lip. --Gustaf Sobin at http://www.coh.arizona.edu/poetry/newsletters/spring_1996/SOBIN.html (with bio note) Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed May 21 15:47:15 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 14:47:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk Message-ID: Another poem below from the quirky Mark Halliday, this from his most recent collection, *Jab*, which I've been rereading lately with much pleasure. Recently I'd been pondering what seems a proliferation of poets roughly in Halliday's vein, wondering whether anyone has put a name to this kind of rambly, proselike, often humorously self-reflexive poem. Turns out that Halliday has. In a review of David Kirby's *The House of Blue Lights* in *Parnassus* (26.2) he refers to Kirby's "ultra-talk" style. Other poets I would place in this ad hoc "school" might include Albert Goldbarth, Denise Duhamel, and Barbara Hamby--all mentioned, as a matter of fact, in Halliday's review, along with "cheerfully longwinded" precursors such as Frank O'Hara and Kenneth Koch. I have mixed feelings about many ultra-talk poems & poets--the dangers of deliberate prosiness seem obvious enough--but the phenomenon is interesting and worth some attention. I recommend Halliday's review for its clarity in sorting out some of the virtues and drawbacks of this style; he's referring to Kirby, of course, but everything he writes can be applied to his own poems. Against Realism She is over there, at the edge, just past what I can really notice. She wears brown shoes and she has two jobs probably, like financial records work for small businesses and, evenings, behind-the-counter at a convenience store. Why the need for extra cash? I don't like the dry way she says "cash"-- maybe she has twin daughters age nine, or her husband got laid off, or both, who knows, she has this dry vibe of dismissal like "That seemed fun when I was nineteen but now I know there's only dust and being decent" anyway her life is pinched and it's not her fault okay and she deals with it bravely I suppose although "bravely" makes it sound interesting whereas I just feel it is so dreary I can't even focus on it and she herself realizes it's not heroic, it's just being an Adult and Coping. Frankly I hate the way she uses the word "coping" and I would prefer never to hear the word again from anybody. In her voice there's this tone that says "A dreamer is a parasite," not that she would ever explicitly say something that intense because she is thinking about daycare and the dinner. I know I should admire how she works and plans and keeps up with the laundry, whatever, and feeds the dog and visits her sick uncle, whatever, okay I do, in principle, but between you and me she is so boring in her, you know, her busy life of hardihood and pathos, God, when you have to pause and face it there is nothing more deadly than hardihood-and-pathos, I mean it really kills the secret thing-- the non-dust thing--the vital electric bloomy comet leopard secret symphony heart. If I have to think admiringly one more minute on how she starts the pot roast at dawn and brushes Jenny's hair and how to her sex is mainly the problem of unwanted pregnancy which she counsels younger women about so helpfully and how she is supportive, she is so supportive I swear I will pass out and fall down and get a boredom-induced concussion or else write only fantasy fiction disguised as bitter satire or else give up and become a decent concerned citizen and disappear into thc brown huge hum-hum of all that human decent pathos, that brown-shoe humanity always there, over there on the side at the edge where thank God I'm not looking --Mark Halliday. *Jab*. U Chicago Press, 2002. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From halvard at earthlink.net Wed May 21 15:54:14 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:54:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { the dangers of { deliberate prosiness seem obvious enough And those again were what? High blood pressure? Brittle bones? Hal "The nation without great poets will not have great politicians." --Saddam Hussein Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed May 21 16:13:07 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:13:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > { the dangers of > { deliberate prosiness seem obvious enough > > And those again were what? High blood pressure? > Brittle bones? > > Hal Nope, much worse, Hal: boredom. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From chris at chrislott.org Wed May 21 17:57:04 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 13:57:04 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk References: Message-ID: <018f01c31fe3$eb5a3260$5b15e589@TECH> There is an awful lot of new fiction in this mode too. And flash fiction/prose poems. I like the term "ultra-talk" as a convenient reference... c -- Chris Lott From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed May 21 18:09:10 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:09:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk References: <018f01c31fe3$eb5a3260$5b15e589@TECH> Message-ID: <002a01c31fe5$a37a9f00$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Taxonomy rides again! Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Lott" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk > There is an awful lot of new fiction in this mode too. And flash > fiction/prose poems. I like the term "ultra-talk" as a convenient > reference... > > c > -- > Chris Lott > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Wed May 21 18:23:34 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:23:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { > { the dangers of { > { deliberate prosiness seem obvious enough { > { > And those again were what? High blood pressure? { > Brittle bones? { > { > Hal { { Nope, much worse, Hal: boredom. Prose is boring, or just prosiness? Is there a difference? And boredom is a high state, as someone (not Cage) used to say; but take two Cage pills and call me in the morning. Hal "I have the feeling that we are getting nowhere, and that is a pleasure." --John Cage Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed May 21 19:35:28 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:35:28 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk References: Message-ID: <3ECC0D40.8F18F824@earthlink.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > > { > { the dangers of > { > { deliberate prosiness seem obvious enough > { > > { > And those again were what? High blood pressure? > { > Brittle bones? > { > > { > Hal > { > { Nope, much worse, Hal: boredom. > > Prose is boring, or just prosiness? Is there a difference? > And boredom is a high state, as someone (not Cage) > used to say; but take two Cage pills and call me in the morning. So, what would be the opposite of "prosiness" in poetry? "Chunk-verse"? *I* know what I'm talking about, but I doubt if others would. I'll try to find an example and hope I don't commit a po-bizz faux pas. - Jim p.s. - I read all the way through the poem David posted, not out of inherent interest, but because David posted it. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed May 21 19:39:34 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 16:39:34 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk References: <018f01c31fe3$eb5a3260$5b15e589@TECH> Message-ID: <3ECC0E36.8CFB6208@earthlink.net> Chris Lott wrote: > > There is an awful lot of new fiction in this mode too. And flash > fiction/prose poems. I like the term "ultra-talk" as a convenient > reference... Had I not read this thread and you'd used the term "ultra-talk," I wouldna ave known what ye were talkin about. The poem simply read like talk/vernacular-rambling/prose-chopped-into-lines to me, but since it was presented as a poem I guess it became "ultra-talk." - Jim From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed May 21 22:24:13 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:24:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk In-Reply-To: <3ECC0D40.8F18F824@earthlink.net> Message-ID: As it happens, I've been working on an essay on the "ultra-talk" poem. Let me first offer a couple snippets from the Mark Halliday review I cited, which may begin to clarify what *he* meant by the term. I should reiterate that Halliday applied it to the poems of David Kirby, mainly. I'm the one guilty of doing the trend-spotting here, though obviously Halliday sees the connections between Kirby & himself. ---------------------- Halliday: Some poets strive for the memorable phrase, or the marble stanza: Kirby strives for the good chunk--maybe ten lines, maybe twenty--and not even every chunk has to be terrific as long as he feels he is plugged into his circuit. . . . The phrasing is workaday, casually expository, patiently jogging along the associative path, not leaping to new images as in a poem by, say, Lorca, Crane, or Plath. Kirby's is an anti-leap aesthetic; if he does hop occasionally, he announces it loudly and makes sure you can hop alongside him without spilling your drink. . . . . . Kirby's ultra-talk represents an experiment in the lowering of pressure. (Something like this could be said about Swift, Byron, and O'Hara in their own periods.) As a consequence, he gives up a lot: the mighty line; the force of rhythm--not rhythm per se (since of course all talk has rhythm) but rhythm in felicitous conjunction with intensified or "heightened" phrasing; the force of compressed metaphor and rapid shifting between metaphors; and the sense of necessary structure, of a poem being the perfect crystallization of its concern. . . . . No matter how much fun it is to make audiences laugh, Kirby's experiment must have taken some courage. He has heard the mutters: "That's not poetry at all." It's easy to imagine him going over well with a not-especially literary crowd at a reading. (As a writer of quite accessible poems myself, I'm hostile to the view that this accessibility guarantees some crippling limitation.) --Mark Halliday. "Gabfest," *Parnassus* 26.2 ---------------------------------------------- And here is a bit from my own essay-in-progress. At the moment I'm mostly wondering whether others see the same phenomenon I see, and if so, what you think about it. -------------- Whatever their important differences, poets of ultra-talk as I conceive it share a number of qualities. The poems are highly discursive (Halliday terms Kirby "hyperjunctive," in contrast to the currently fashionable disjunctiveness of Ashbery and others); they are also garrulous to an extreme, quite often self-reflexive, determinedly associative, and frequently humorous. As has become common in poems of several brands today, ultra-talk poems are often in love with pop culture, and freely mix "high" with "low" in good postmodern fashion. Perhaps above all, they are, to use a very loaded term, accessible. The connection with the poems of the original New York School is obvious enough, and quite valid. And it makes sense to draw parallels with certain veins in Swift and Byron, certainly, though I would want to add Coleridge's conversation poems to the mix, along with Whitman's many poems of daily notation. In fact, you could easily assemble a whole rag-tag anthology full of interesting precursors, including figures such as Kenneth Fearing, Paul Blackburn, A. R. Ammons, and Allen Ginsberg, and add to them many contemporaries as distinct from each other as Berndadette Mayer, Billy Collins, David Lehman, and Eileen Myles. ------------------- By the way, I like the poem I posted ("Against Realism"--re-pasted below) a great deal, for whatever that's worth. I do understand (and so does the author) how it's vulnerable to the charge of being tedious prose-hacked-into-lines, but economy is not the sole or chief poetic virtue, I'd say. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== Against Realism She is over there, at the edge, just past what I can really notice. She wears brown shoes and she has two jobs probably, like financial records work for small businesses and, evenings, behind-the-counter at a convenience store. Why the need for extra cash? I don't like the dry way she says "cash"-- maybe she has twin daughters age nine, or her husband got laid off, or both, who knows, she has this dry vibe of dismissal like "That seemed fun when I was nineteen but now I know there's only dust and being decent" anyway her life is pinched and it's not her fault okay and she deals with it bravely I suppose although "bravely" makes it sound interesting whereas I just feel it is so dreary I can't even focus on it and she herself realizes it's not heroic, it's just being an Adult and Coping. Frankly I hate the way she uses the word "coping" and I would prefer never to hear the word again from anybody. In her voice there's this tone that says "A dreamer is a parasite," not that she would ever explicitly say something that intense because she is thinking about daycare and the dinner. I know I should admire how she works and plans and keeps up with the laundry, whatever, and feeds the dog and visits her sick uncle, whatever, okay I do, in principle, but between you and me she is so boring in her, you know, her busy life of hardihood and pathos, God, when you have to pause and face it there is nothing more deadly than hardihood-and-pathos, I mean it really kills the secret thing-- the non-dust thing--the vital electric bloomy comet leopard secret symphony heart. If I have to think admiringly one more minute on how she starts the pot roast at dawn and brushes Jenny's hair and how to her sex is mainly the problem of unwanted pregnancy which she counsels younger women about so helpfully and how she is supportive, she is so supportive I swear I will pass out and fall down and get a boredom-induced concussion or else write only fantasy fiction disguised as bitter satire or else give up and become a decent concerned citizen and disappear into thc brown huge hum-hum of all that human decent pathos, that brown-shoe humanity always there, over there on the side at the edge where thank God I'm not looking --Mark Halliday. *Jab*. U Chicago Press, 2002. From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu May 22 08:28:49 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 08:28:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] ultra-talk Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030522081442.00afae20@postoffice.brown.edu> David, I guess I wonder about the term "accessible". (p.s. I like Mark Halliday in person, met him at Brown here decades ago, where he published some of my first poems). Accessible how ? "Talkiness" doesn't wear well, for the most part. Readers in 30 years are not going to get the references, the slang, the intent focus on the un-pressured. Generally speaking (which is also boring, I know), doesn't art of various kinds emerge from PRESSURE of conflicting necessities ? The resolution or denouement or crisis or peripeteia, whether it's in a sonnet or a tragic drama or even a comedy, is a simplification-integration of complex opposing entangled forces. Don't these submerged impulses underlie the specific rhythms of poetry, the tensions which differentiate it from prose ? "Tension" was a big word once (IA Richards??). I think of these rhythms & tensions as tending toward perfection or simplicity - as if won out of an inward battle. & for poets this battle is for evocation, enunciation, articulation - memorable speech. Talkiness - not always of course - but doesn't it militate against all this in the direction of entropy & slackness? Dissolving into the roar of undifferentiated TALK all around us ?? The meaningless yowling of le CHAT. I'm not passing judgement on what may be a special kind of endeavor ("ultra-talk" poetry) - just considering what context it engages. Henry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu May 22 10:30:37 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:30:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk References: Message-ID: <3ECCDF0C.82A0097B@earthlink.net> David: "ultra-talk" seems very similar to what Charles Webb called "Stand Up poetry." His intro essay to _Stand Up Poetry: The Anthology_ (Cal State, '94) cites characteristics of "stand up poetry": clarity: ". . . Stand Up poetry doesn't use verbal smoke-screens to disguise lack of content, or to avoid revelations about the poets' lives. Stand Up poetry does not require a literary cryptographer to discover its meaning."; natural language: "Stand Up poetry embodies Wordsworth's famous dictum that poetry should be written in the language people actually use - i.e., the vernacular."; humor: ". . . Playful, irreverent, high-spirited, these poems employ the techniques of comedy: timing, absurdity, hyperbole."; performability: "To work optimally when read aloud, a poem must be not only dramatic, but understandable - at least on some level - the first time through."; flights of fancy: "Stand Up poems often create bizarre and outrageous alternative worlds."; a strong individual voice: "Good Stand Up poetry is never what Donald Hall has labelled the 'McPoem': interchangeable fodder for undistinguishable literary magazines . . ."; emotional punch: ". . . In recent years, however - fearing to fall into triteness, sentimentality, and self-revelation - many poets have pulled back from open and overt expressions of feeling. Poet and critic Steve Kowit declares much of late 20th century verse to be characterized by 'its debilitating preference for the tepid, mannered, and opaque.' Stand Up poems - even the funny ones - are not too cool to emote, not too bright and learned to deal with strong emotion."; a close relationship to fiction: ". . . Stand Up poems freely use techniques of fiction - conflict, hooks, reversals, character development, dialogue - to grab the reader's attention and hold on."; use of urban and pop culture (no explanation necessary?); wide open subjet matter: ". . . writers of Stand Up poems take seriously the fact that the majority of people's lives are spent far removed from the sublime. They embrace the ridiculous, the banal, the vulgar, the embarrassing, the commonplace, and find poetry waiting there." Charles (he was a UW buddy) didn't use "prosey," which I take to mean the long, lax, and vernacular line, but the characteristics of "Stand Up" poetry seem to admit it. David Kirby is in the Stand Up poetry anthology, as are Dorianne Laux, Jack Meyers, Maxine Chernoff, Russell Edson, Ronald Wallace, and many others. Browsing through the anthology, I notice that the majority of poems have lines of short or medium length, so maybe it is the "prosiness" that differentiates "ultra-talk" from "Stand Up" poetry. - Jim David Graham wrote: > > As it happens, I've been working on an essay on the "ultra-talk" poem. Let > me first offer a couple snippets from the Mark Halliday review I cited, > which may begin to clarify what *he* meant by the term. I should reiterate > that Halliday applied it to the poems of David Kirby, mainly. I'm the one > guilty of doing the trend-spotting here, though obviously Halliday sees the > connections between Kirby & himself. > > ---------------------- Halliday: > Some poets strive for the memorable phrase, or the marble stanza: Kirby > strives for the good chunk--maybe ten lines, maybe twenty--and not even > every chunk has to be terrific as long as he feels he is plugged into his > circuit. . . . The phrasing is workaday, casually expository, patiently > jogging along the associative path, not leaping to new images as in a poem > by, say, Lorca, Crane, or Plath. Kirby's is an anti-leap aesthetic; if he > does hop occasionally, he announces it loudly and makes sure you can hop > alongside him without spilling your drink. > > . . . . . > > Kirby's ultra-talk represents an experiment in the lowering of pressure. > (Something like this could be said about Swift, Byron, and O'Hara in their > own periods.) As a consequence, he gives up a lot: the mighty line; the > force of rhythm--not rhythm per se (since of course all talk has rhythm) but > rhythm in felicitous conjunction with intensified or "heightened" phrasing; > the force of compressed metaphor and rapid shifting between metaphors; and > the sense of necessary structure, of a poem being the perfect > crystallization of its concern. > . . . . > No matter how much fun it is to make audiences laugh, Kirby's > experiment must have taken some courage. He has heard the mutters: "That's > not poetry at all." It's easy to imagine him going over well with a > not-especially literary crowd at a reading. (As a writer of quite > accessible poems myself, I'm hostile to the view that this accessibility > guarantees some crippling limitation.) > > --Mark Halliday. "Gabfest," *Parnassus* 26.2 > ---------------------------------------------- > > And here is a bit from my own essay-in-progress. At the moment I'm mostly > wondering whether others see the same phenomenon I see, and if so, what you > think about it. > > -------------- > Whatever their important differences, poets of ultra-talk as I conceive it > share a number of qualities. The poems are highly discursive (Halliday > terms Kirby "hyperjunctive," in contrast to the currently fashionable > disjunctiveness of Ashbery and others); they are also garrulous to an > extreme, quite often self-reflexive, determinedly associative, and > frequently humorous. As has become common in poems of several brands today, > ultra-talk poems are often in love with pop culture, and freely mix "high" > with "low" in good postmodern fashion. Perhaps above all, they are, to use a > very loaded term, accessible. > > The connection with the poems of the original New York School is obvious > enough, and quite valid. And it makes sense to draw parallels with certain > veins in Swift and Byron, certainly, though I would want to add Coleridge's > conversation poems to the mix, along with Whitman's many poems of daily > notation. In fact, you could easily assemble a whole rag-tag anthology full > of interesting precursors, including figures such as Kenneth Fearing, Paul > Blackburn, A. R. Ammons, and Allen Ginsberg, and add to them many > contemporaries as distinct from each other as Berndadette Mayer, Billy > Collins, David Lehman, and Eileen Myles. > ------------------- > > By the way, I like the poem I posted ("Against Realism"--re-pasted below) a > great deal, for whatever that's worth. I do understand (and so does the > author) how it's vulnerable to the charge of being tedious > prose-hacked-into-lines, but economy is not the sole or chief poetic virtue, > I'd say. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > Against Realism > > She is over there, at the edge, just past > what I can really notice. She wears brown shoes > and she has two jobs probably, like > financial records work for small businesses and, evenings, > behind-the-counter at a convenience store. > Why the need for extra cash? I don't like the dry way she says "cash"-- > maybe she has twin daughters age nine, or her husband got laid off, > or both, who knows, she has this dry vibe of dismissal > like "That seemed fun when I was nineteen > but now I know there's only dust and being decent" > anyway her life is pinched and it's not her fault okay > and she deals with it bravely I suppose > although "bravely" makes it sound interesting whereas I just feel > it is so dreary I can't even focus on it > and she herself realizes it's not heroic, it's just being an Adult > and Coping. Frankly I hate the way she uses the word "coping" > and I would prefer never to hear the word again from anybody. > In her voice there's this tone that says "A dreamer is a parasite," > not that she would ever explicitly say something that intense > because she is thinking about daycare and the dinner. > I know I should admire how she works and plans and keeps up > with the laundry, whatever, and feeds the dog > and visits her sick uncle, whatever, > okay I do, in principle, but between you and me > she is so boring in her, you know, her busy life of hardihood and pathos, > God, when you have to pause and face it > there is nothing more deadly than hardihood-and-pathos, > I mean it really kills the secret thing-- > the non-dust thing--the vital electric bloomy comet leopard secret > symphony heart. > If I have to think admiringly one more minute on how > she starts the pot roast at dawn and brushes Jenny's hair > and how to her sex is mainly the problem of unwanted pregnancy > which she counsels younger women about so helpfully > and how she is supportive, she is so supportive > I swear I will pass out and fall down and get a boredom-induced concussion > or else write only fantasy fiction disguised as bitter satire > or else give up and become a decent concerned citizen > and disappear into thc brown huge hum-hum of all that human decent pathos, > that brown-shoe humanity always there, over there > on the side at the edge where thank God I'm not looking > > --Mark Halliday. *Jab*. U Chicago Press, 2002. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Thu May 22 10:54:49 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 10:54:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem - get with the program! In-Reply-To: <3ECCDF0C.82A0097B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3ECCAC79.3385.ACC223@localhost> Found Poem - Get with the program! Flying all over the country in AF 1 raising $100 million in campaign bribes a year by Willie the Weasel = Evil use of public asset. Flying all over the country in AF 1 raising $200 million in campaign bribes a year by the Bush League = Noble use of a public asset. Visiting an Aircraft Carrier by Willie the Weasel = treasonous abuse of the armed forces for political grandstanding. Visiting an Aircraft Carrier by the Bush League = Patriotic Photo Opportunity before a fawning armed forces. Renting the Lincoln Bedroom to Campaign Contributors for $125,000 a night by Willie the Weasel = criminal profiteering at Motel 1600. Renting the Lincoln Bedroom to Campaign Contributors for $250,000 a night by the Bush League = The Worthy Wealthy receiving their due at Grand Hotel 1600. Waging war against Saddam and Osama by Willie the Weasel = Wagging the Dog. Waging war against Saddam and Osama by George the Bush League = Showing the World Who's Boss. Criticizing Willie the Weasel Clinton even when the criticism was totally unjustified by the facts = noble and patriotic. Criticizing the Bush League even when the criticism is justified by the facts = Treason. Get with the program! Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu May 22 11:14:42 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:14:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RB time warp Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030522111301.00b18a10@postoffice.brown.edu> If you check the New Poetry archives on line, you'll see that Robin Hamilton has already posted some messages in June 2003. I know he's interested in metrics, but this is a caesura and a half. Henry From chris at chrislott.org Thu May 22 11:39:26 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:39:26 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk References: Message-ID: <009701c32078$549ee650$5b15e589@TECH> It's interesting. The Halliday poem didn't do much for me, but I have recently been greatly enjoying some of David Kirby's work. It is "prosy" but it seems only rarely as prosy and "breathlessly rushing forward" as Halliday's poem was... a lot of this kind of writing reminds me of someone who bursts into a room after a long run and is trying to get a story out, kind of a torrent of words. c -- Chris Lott From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu May 22 12:00:24 2003 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 17:00:24 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] RB time warp References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030522111301.00b18a10@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <01cb01c3207b$456c5660$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> > If you check the New Poetry archives on line, you'll see that Robin > Hamilton has already posted some messages in June 2003. I know he's > interested in metrics, but this is a caesura and a half. > > Henry Ooops!!! I've had Severe Words with my recalcitrant time machine. Having insisted that she re-sets her clock, I believe I'm now back in the consensual temporal present. Accidents will happen. niboR From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu May 22 12:54:48 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 11:54:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 5/21/03 9:24 PM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote: > As it happens, I've been working on an essay on the "ultra-talk" poem. Let > me first offer a couple snippets from the Mark Halliday review I cited, > which may begin to clarify what *he* meant by the term. I should reiterate > that Halliday applied it to the poems of David Kirby, mainly. I'm the one > guilty of doing the trend-spotting here, though obviously Halliday sees the > connections between Kirby & himself. > > ---------------------- Halliday: > Some poets strive for the memorable phrase, or the marble stanza: Kirby > strives for the good chunk--maybe ten lines, maybe twenty--and not even > every chunk has to be terrific as long as he feels he is plugged into his > circuit. . . . The phrasing is workaday, casually expository, patiently > jogging along the associative path, not leaping to new images as in a poem > by, say, Lorca, Crane, or Plath. Kirby's is an anti-leap aesthetic; if he > does hop occasionally, he announces it loudly and makes sure you can hop > alongside him without spilling your drink. > > . . . . . > > Kirby's ultra-talk represents an experiment in the lowering of pressure. > (Something like this could be said about Swift, Byron, and O'Hara in their > own periods.) As a consequence, he gives up a lot: the mighty line; the > force of rhythm--not rhythm per se (since of course all talk has rhythm) but > rhythm in felicitous conjunction with intensified or "heightened" phrasing; > the force of compressed metaphor and rapid shifting between metaphors; and > the sense of necessary structure, of a poem being the perfect > crystallization of its concern. > . . . . > No matter how much fun it is to make audiences laugh, Kirby's > experiment must have taken some courage. He has heard the mutters: "That's > not poetry at all." It's easy to imagine him going over well with a > not-especially literary crowd at a reading. (As a writer of quite > accessible poems myself, I'm hostile to the view that this accessibility > guarantees some crippling limitation.) > > --Mark Halliday. "Gabfest," *Parnassus* 26.2 > ---------------------------------------------- > > And here is a bit from my own essay-in-progress. At the moment I'm mostly > wondering whether others see the same phenomenon I see, and if so, what you > think about it. > > -------------- > Whatever their important differences, poets of ultra-talk as I conceive it > share a number of qualities. The poems are highly discursive (Halliday > terms Kirby "hyperjunctive," in contrast to the currently fashionable > disjunctiveness of Ashbery and others); they are also garrulous to an > extreme, quite often self-reflexive, determinedly associative, and > frequently humorous. As has become common in poems of several brands today, > ultra-talk poems are often in love with pop culture, and freely mix "high" > with "low" in good postmodern fashion. Perhaps above all, they are, to use a > very loaded term, accessible. > > The connection with the poems of the original New York School is obvious > enough, and quite valid. And it makes sense to draw parallels with certain > veins in Swift and Byron, certainly, though I would want to add Coleridge's > conversation poems to the mix, along with Whitman's many poems of daily > notation. In fact, you could easily assemble a whole rag-tag anthology full > of interesting precursors, including figures such as Kenneth Fearing, Paul > Blackburn, A. R. Ammons, and Allen Ginsberg, and add to them many > contemporaries as distinct from each other as Berndadette Mayer, Billy > Collins, David Lehman, and Eileen Myles. > ------------------- > > By the way, I like the poem I posted ("Against Realism"--re-pasted below) a > great deal, for whatever that's worth. I do understand (and so does the > author) how it's vulnerable to the charge of being tedious > prose-hacked-into-lines, but economy is not the sole or chief poetic virtue, > I'd say. > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > Against Realism > > She is over there, at the edge, just past > what I can really notice. She wears brown shoes > and she has two jobs probably, like > financial records work for small businesses and, evenings, > behind-the-counter at a convenience store. > Why the need for extra cash? I don't like the dry way she says "cash"-- > maybe she has twin daughters age nine, or her husband got laid off, > or both, who knows, she has this dry vibe of dismissal > like "That seemed fun when I was nineteen > but now I know there's only dust and being decent" > anyway her life is pinched and it's not her fault okay > and she deals with it bravely I suppose > although "bravely" makes it sound interesting whereas I just feel > it is so dreary I can't even focus on it > and she herself realizes it's not heroic, it's just being an Adult > and Coping. Frankly I hate the way she uses the word "coping" > and I would prefer never to hear the word again from anybody. > In her voice there's this tone that says "A dreamer is a parasite," > not that she would ever explicitly say something that intense > because she is thinking about daycare and the dinner. > I know I should admire how she works and plans and keeps up > with the laundry, whatever, and feeds the dog > and visits her sick uncle, whatever, > okay I do, in principle, but between you and me > she is so boring in her, you know, her busy life of hardihood and pathos, > God, when you have to pause and face it > there is nothing more deadly than hardihood-and-pathos, > I mean it really kills the secret thing-- > the non-dust thing--the vital electric bloomy comet leopard secret > symphony heart. > If I have to think admiringly one more minute on how > she starts the pot roast at dawn and brushes Jenny's hair > and how to her sex is mainly the problem of unwanted pregnancy > which she counsels younger women about so helpfully > and how she is supportive, she is so supportive > I swear I will pass out and fall down and get a boredom-induced concussion > or else write only fantasy fiction disguised as bitter satire > or else give up and become a decent concerned citizen > and disappear into thc brown huge hum-hum of all that human decent pathos, > that brown-shoe humanity always there, over there > on the side at the edge where thank God I'm not looking > > --Mark Halliday. *Jab*. U Chicago Press, 2002. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > C. K. Williams is another poet whose verse fits your definition of Ultra-talk. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From dicka at optonline.net Thu May 22 21:01:45 2003 From: dicka at optonline.net (Richard Attanasio) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 21:01:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:"ultra-..." In-Reply-To: <200305221601.h4MG13ST006956@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <1FD2A668-8CBA-11D7-AC6D-000393DE187A@optonline.net> David's stated definition of "ultra - poetry" would indeed cover Mark Halliday and Albert Goldbarth, and probably the others, even A.R. Ammons. But a definition that includes them all leaves a lot of room for improvement. Halliday's prosiness (I've met him too and he's indeed a courteous nice guy) is, IMO, kinda' flat and not all that interesting. Goldbarth can go on forever and never bore, again, IMO. He's _sui generis_. Ammons was also quite distinctive, and not at all comparable (except in David Graham's skillfully constructed definition) to Halliday. Maybe Michael Waters said it best (in paraphrase), "poetry is elevated speech," - Goldbarth's and Ammons' is, Halliday's is not. Frank O'Hara's is not, but what was the saw about the exception proving the rule? It is nice to talk about poetry though... thanks for the intriguing post, David. Richard From halvard at earthlink.net Thu May 22 22:32:43 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 22:32:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Will that essay touch on David Antin, David? Hal { As it happens, I've been working on an essay on the "ultra-talk" poem. From ggatza at daemen.edu Wed May 21 16:38:32 2003 From: ggatza at daemen.edu (b l a z e VOX) Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:38:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Special feature : Kent Johnson MP3 Message-ID: <004301c31fd8$f2666660$605e3318@LINKAGE> Special feature : Kent Johnson MP3 Now featuring on BlazeVOX2k3 a virtual reading of 5 poems from Kent Johnson author of _Immanent Visitor: Selected Poems of Jaime Saenz_ (U of California Press), with Forrest Gander www.blazevox.org/kent.htm Baghdad [ MP3 ] Basra Exceeds its Object [ MP3 ] Candle in the Breeze [ MP3 ] (from: Immanent Visitor: Selected Poems of Jaime Saenz) May 3, 1967 [ MP3 ] (From: DOUBLED FLOWERING: From the Notebooks of Araki Yasusada) August 30, 1926 [ MP3 ] (From: the unpublished letters of Araki Yasusada) www.blazevox.org/kent.htm BlazeVOX2k3 bring you the finest selections in contemporary poetry in 5 luscious flavors, Chocolate Whip?, Vanilla Dew?, Calf's Liver, Mango Surprise, and Water. Children please get adults permission + Gabriel Gudding + Wilton Azevedo + John M Bennett + Paquin & Mengert + Sager & Comerford + andrew topel + kari edwards + Francis Raven + Michael Bogue + Joel Chace + Raymond Farr + Bob BrueckL + Jeffrey Jullich + Aaron Belz + Geoffrey Gatza + New Media + Editorial Staff + ebook Inventory + Archive + Wilde Web Offer void where prohibited BlazeVOX.org an online journal of voice featuring new media and poetry avant garde. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri May 23 17:08:03 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:08:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Ultra-Talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Will that essay touch on David Antin, David? > > Hal Probably not, Hal--not unless you kindly post something scrumptious by Antin. . . . I think I've only read one piece by him. No doubt something you posted, too. Let's see. . . . So far in my fledgling essay I've quoted (in addition to Mark Halliday) David Lehman, Denise Duhamel, Bernadette Mayer, Campbell McGrath, Vikram Seth, and Albert Goldbarth. In the on-deck circle, Eileen Myles, David Clewell, and others. A right pleasingly motley crew. David ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > > { As it happens, I've been working on an essay on the "ultra-talk" poem. > From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri May 23 17:29:56 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 16:29:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery's Latest: a review Message-ID: Upon Reading John Ashbery's Twenty-Fourth Collection of Poems The Prairie Summer Players are doing Frawley's *Mops of Fate* again this June, and believe you me it's not to be missed, easily the best thing they've produced since the salad days of the incomparable Merv & Herv, our late lamented bachelor twins who sang so candidly--could we ever forget their sweet duet in *Love Almanac* or the final medley in *Oblique Street*? --but this summer, I kid you not, looks to be the equal of anything we've seen to date from this revitalized troupe so ably directed by Rich Piotrowski with his quicksilver wit and that glittering set! all those period costumes! hardly costing twenty-five bucks total, that Rich is a wizard at beg-steal-borrowing props and mothballed dresses and whatnot-- but anyway, long story short and I'm not just saying this on account of I have that teensiest little part myself, you won't go away unsatisfied. Period. Full stop. I'm not at liberty to say who slays who or how he/she does it, nor will I mention in what classic fashion the Sultan's slave boy finally manages to save Luella Drake, but suffice it to say you won't recognize old Bonnie Smeldon, making her debut as the nefarious Cat Spirit, she'll literally knock your socks, and so will Rusty Caddis who is just perfectly cast as the half-cracked merchant with a long-held secret. You won't believe this is the selfsame guy who sold you your mortgage and strums banjo in the Gimpy Geezer Old-Time Jazz Band every July Oh Four--which is, don't get me wrong, a lot of fun too in its own way, but, and how can I say this without sounding snotty, I don't mean to be critical, but I guess I'll just come right out with it-- who every dreamed that old Rusty Caddis had it in him? I mean really. The man's got a platterload of talent. He could really do something if he ever got the notion is what I'm saying. He truly and actually could, no lie. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri May 23 18:47:28 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 15:47:28 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery's Latest: a review References: Message-ID: <3ECEA4FF.CDF1332F@earthlink.net> Upon Reading David Graham's "Upon Reading John Ashbery's Twenty-Fourth Collection of Poems" This guy's got it down, that slow-dance/fast-dance twitch that's like people dancing without music which is used to sell a pill for slow joints though the people dancing are not afflicted by that exactly, but are like the bumper cars at Coney or Scat Sage's slow-mo repetition of freight train coupling, four hours of that cinematically enlarged and accompanied by a single soprano saxaphone, extreme upper register which is supposed, we think, to mimic singing steel as if you heard it around 3 a.m. from across the river, practicing for disaster, and highly reminiscent of Mrs. Gorley's chalk across the blackboard, as well as that famous shower scream that kept us dirty, gritty, and with an edge seeping from our collars, which did not bring stares, just a sort of accidental moving away. Digression can be the back teeth of a maw you didn't mean to kiss, whereas it was - to draw this out - those shiny incisors of his verbs that elicited comparison unto the dance, and what he wrote the about about is the sequined-dressed partner treated like an adjective and, like, there's only one noun in the world and we all know who that is. Say it big but say it quiet. We loved the way that opening Penguin editions could get you lost in an elevator or make you put your foot out and down hard when you'd run out of stairs. Words about the words are like that but you can eat an icecream cone and keep an ear out for the kid's giveaway scream while you mull them over and hear multiple clicks when kaleidoscope pieces fall together into some acid doily. - Jim David Graham wrote: > > Upon Reading John Ashbery's Twenty-Fourth Collection of Poems > > The Prairie Summer Players are doing Frawley's *Mops of Fate* > again this June, and believe you me it's not to be missed, > easily the best thing they've produced since the salad days > of the incomparable Merv & Herv, our late lamented bachelor twins > who sang so candidly--could we ever forget their sweet duet > in *Love Almanac* or the final medley in *Oblique Street*? > --but this summer, I kid you not, looks to be the equal > of anything we've seen to date from this revitalized troupe > so ably directed by Rich Piotrowski with his quicksilver wit > and that glittering set! all those period costumes! > hardly costing twenty-five bucks total, that Rich is a wizard > at beg-steal-borrowing props and mothballed dresses and whatnot-- > > but anyway, long story short and I'm not just saying this > on account of I have that teensiest little part myself, > you won't go away unsatisfied. Period. Full stop. > I'm not at liberty to say who slays who or how he/she does it, > nor will I mention in what classic fashion > the Sultan's slave boy finally manages to save Luella Drake, > but suffice it to say you won't recognize old Bonnie Smeldon, > making her debut as the nefarious Cat Spirit, she'll literally > knock your socks, and so will Rusty Caddis who is > just perfectly cast as the half-cracked merchant > with a long-held secret. You won't believe this is > the selfsame guy who sold you your mortgage and strums banjo > in the Gimpy Geezer Old-Time Jazz Band every > July Oh Four--which is, don't get me wrong, a lot of fun too > in its own way, but, and how can I say this > without sounding snotty, I don't mean to be critical, > but I guess I'll just come right out with it-- > who every dreamed that old Rusty Caddis had it in him? > I mean really. The man's got a platterload of talent. > He could really do something if he ever got the notion > is what I'm saying. He truly and actually could, no lie. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat May 24 14:10:41 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 13:10:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Now on Conchology Blog Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030524130333.018fde70@mail.ilstu.edu> "DUNG IN AN AGE OF EMPIRE: An Defense of A Defense of Poetry" http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ Also, forthcoming reviews of Pierre Joris, Brenda Coultas, Hilton Obenzinger, Dennis Barone, Barbara Barg, Mary Ruefle, Rae Armantrout, E. M. Cioran, Bill Knott, Beverly Dahlen, Rochelle Owens, Garcia San Baz, and John O'Leary From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 24 17:11:18 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 17:11:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk or Breezy Message-ID: How To Write A Breezy Poem (from Countermeasures #3) by Charles "Chuck" Calabreze" 1. Begin with "Because," "When," or "If." 2. Mention two strangers. Describe in detail. 3. Tell where you?re watching from. 4. Create a simile involving a household pet. 5. Make a tentative philosophical observation. 6. Take back tentative philosophical observation. 7. Confess that you?ve lied about 1 & 2. 8. Change the subject entirely. Or write a series of similes involving various pop culture icons. Extra credit: Drop names of TV shows seen only on Nick at Nite. 9. Say what you?re really doing (i.e. writing a poem). 10. Confess that you don?t really know what you?re doing. 11. Tell what you?d rather be doing. 12. Write a brief passage proving that you?re not a capital ?P? poet (e.g., T.S. Eliot) 13. Further undermine your authority by impugning your motives. (Hint: reduce them to something base and trivial.) 14. Invent a simile or two or three using common kitchen appliances or objects. 15. Mention a friend?s marital or dating problems. Extra credit: Mention your married friend?s dating problems. 16. Make list of events beginning with "After." 17. Make tentative psychological observation. 18. Take back tentative psychological observation. 19. Rapidly change the subject to avoid implication of 16. 20. Return to the strangers. Begin line "I swear." 21. Envy something about the strangers. Example: Unselfconsciousness. 22. Mention an obscure rock ?n? roll band. 23. Praise the band extravagantly. 24. Change the subject again. 26. Apologize to the reader. 25. End with slightly obtuse but trivial observation grounded in everyday routine. If possible, be witty. ??. From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 24 18:13:44 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 18:13:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:"ultra-..." Message-ID: <18c.1ad1b441.2c014898@aol.com> In a message dated 5/22/03 9:03:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dicka at optonline.net writes: >Goldbarth can go on forever and never bore, again, IMO. > He's _sui generis_. Ammons was also quite distinctive, and not at all > comparable (except in David Graham's skillfully constructed definition) > to Halliday. Maybe Michael Waters said it best (in paraphrase), > "poetry is elevated speech," - Goldbarth's and Ammons' is, Halliday's > is not. Frank O'Hara's is not, but what was the saw about the > exception proving the rule? I agree about Goldbarth. Two things stand out for me: his wide-ranging and free-wheeling choice of subject matter (high/low, historical/popular, with all the stops in between) and his penchant for "compounding," which gives a Germanic texture to his language and the nice bleeding-into-one-another creates, on the fly, either extension-in-lexis or extension-in-function. Ammons I'm less fond of. I think he lost his poetic chops in those late windy books (Garbage, Sphere, Glare...). Flat prose to the point of making one wonder if the pulse of the poet had gone prematuely flatline. The neologism"monologorrhea" comes mind. (Ashbery too slips into this mode... but he's seldom so flat as to absolutely bore.) Finnegan From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sat May 24 18:39:46 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 15:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk or Breezy Message-ID: <20030524223946.87DEF42D7@sitemail.everyone.net> Jim, There is enough material here for several poems, some short stories, and a rather lengthy novel! Too "ultra-light," but heavy enough not to be too "breezy." Bob Poetry Catamaran "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" Robert R. Cobb AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. http://rrcobb.tripod.com --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: >How To Write A Breezy Poem (from Countermeasures #3) > by Charles "Chuck" Calabreze" > >1. Begin with "Because," "When," or "If." > >2. Mention two strangers. Describe in detail. > >3. Tell where you?re watching from. > >4. Create a simile involving a household pet. > >5. Make a tentative philosophical observation. > >6. Take back tentative philosophical observation. > >7. Confess that you?ve lied about 1 & 2. > >8. Change the subject entirely. Or write a series >of similes involving various pop culture icons. >Extra credit: Drop names of TV shows seen >only on Nick at Nite. > >9. Say what you?re really doing (i.e. writing >a poem). > >10. Confess that you don?t really know what >you?re doing. > >11. Tell what you?d rather be doing. > >12. Write a brief passage proving that you?re not >a capital ?P? poet (e.g., T.S. Eliot) > >13. Further undermine your authority by impugning >your motives. (Hint: reduce them to something base >and trivial.) > >14. Invent a simile or two or three using common >kitchen appliances or objects. > >15. Mention a friend?s marital or dating problems. >Extra credit: Mention your married friend?s dating >problems. > >16. Make list of events beginning with "After." > >17. Make tentative psychological observation. > >18. Take back tentative psychological observation. > >19. Rapidly change the subject to avoid implication >of 16. > >20. Return to the strangers. Begin line "I swear." > >21. Envy something about the strangers. Example: >Unselfconsciousness. > >22. Mention an obscure rock ?n? roll band. > >23. Praise the band extravagantly. > >24. Change the subject again. > >26. Apologize to the reader. > >25. End with slightly obtuse but trivial observation >grounded in everyday routine. If possible, be witty. >??. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 24 21:19:05 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 21:19:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] FENCE MAGAZINE BOOK PARTY Message-ID: <1a9.15272483.2c017409@aol.com> >Subject: Friday Night at the Poetry Project >Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 12:13:56 -0400 > >FRIDAY NIGHT AT THE POETRY PROJECT >In St. Mark's Church 131 E. 10th @ 2nd Ave in Manhattan > >FRIDAY MAY 30, 2003 9:30p in The Parish Hall > >PRESENTS > >FENCE MAGAZINE BOOK PARTY > >A Fence Magazine Book Party and Reading for 2003 Publications. Fence authors >Anthony McCann, Father of Noise; Martin Corless-Smith, Nota; Elizabeth >Robinson, Apprehend; and Brian Young, who has a new book of poems >forthcoming from the University of Nevada Press, will be reading from their >work. > >Friday Night Events at The Poetry Project >Hosted/Presented by Christopher Stackhouse > >Admission: $10 general $7 Students $5 Members > >www.poetryproject.com > >ABOUT THE AUTHORS: > >Elizabeth Robinson is the author of In the Sequence of Falling Things, Bed >of Lists, House Made of Silver, Harrow, and Pure Descent, winner of the 2001 >National Poetry Series. Apprehend won the 2002 Fence Modern Poets Series >Prize. She co-edits EtherDome Press, 26 Magazine, and Instance Press. > >Martin Corless-Smith was born and raised in Worcestershire, England. He >lives in Boise with his wife and son, and spends his summers in London >wandering around. His books include Of Piscator (University of Georgia >Press) and Complete Travels (West House Books, Sheffield, England). > >Anthony McCann is a poet by day and an English as a Second Language teacher >by night. He lives and works in Brooklyn and, having been born in September >of 1969, is currently, according to his students, completing his "christ >year." He will be reading from Father of Noise, his first full length >collection of poems. > >Brian Young is the author of The Full Night Still in The Street Water >(University of Nevada Press). He is the recipient of fellowships from the >Arizona Commission of The Arts, Iowa Writers Workshop, and the NEA. He >teaches at University of Iowa, has taught at the University of Utah and is >currently living in Chicago. > >www.poetryproject.com > >By Train: > >L train to 3 Ave walk south to 10th St. Make left go one block > >N,R, train to 8th St. walk east 4 blocks to 2 Ave. go north two blocks > >6 train to Astor place walk on block to 9th St. two block East to 2nd Ave > > >Curator's Note: > >This will be the last Friday Night Event at The Poetry Project at >St. Mark's Church of the season. It was an enjoyable year as was >last year, though we had fewer presentations this time around. I >would like to thank all the many talented contributors for what on >many an occasion rendered very exciting events, with diverse, >amazing, intellectual, beautiful, strange, entertaining turnouts. >I'd also like to send a shout out to the PoProj staff and 'behind >the scenes people', for keeping a great vision clicking at every >event. May even greater things come in the future (they certainly >will). And as it is and will continue to be this FENCE reading is >going to be an alive affair, perhaps with a few extra treats thrown >in last minute. Got to keep it fresh. Keep it really fresh and >living otherwise the creative people lose out once again to the >(a-hem) academy of the established bored. Keep pushing yoozall! We >need more light, more raging art, more ways to say "live your life >to the >fullest", what better way than to push the essence of poetry in >every genre, everywhere and all over.... always and forever >more......see you somewhere, next year.....Stay up. > >Oh Yes and by the way the Tuesday after this Poproj Fence party >Check A Taste of Art 's First Tuesday's reading > >Tuesday, June 3rd, 2003 7-9p >First Tuesday's Reading at A Taste of Art >Features Poets: >Caroline Crumpacker, David Perry, Erica Doyle, and Aaron Kunin > >Free admission > >Located: at 147 Duane St. Btwn Church and West Broadway in Tribeca > >For more info on the location and the readers See www.atasteofart.com > >ACE1239 Trains to Chambers St. stop > >This is a really, really great group of poets. Powerfully funny, >smart as hell, performative, and worth the trip to Tribeca. An >aesthetically even night of greatness.....roll through. > >As is always the case there'll be a wonderful selection of wine, >port, vodka,, mixed drinks, coffees, teas, bon-bons, and fine >conversation available among other things........ > >big love, xo Christopher Stackhouse > > > > >-- >To unsubscribe from: Fence/Fence Books, just follow this link: > >http://www.constantcritic.com/mojo/mojo.cgi?f=u&l=fence&e=acroggon at bigpond.co m&p=6922 From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat May 24 21:41:45 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 24 May 2003 20:41:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] wolfowitz encourages turkilary militish to defy turkilary govt Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030524114422.017bf528@mail.ilstu.edu> http://wsws.org/articles/2003/may2003/turk-m24.shtml also, here is a poem written by anonymous i found Soldiers who wish to be a hero Are practically zero. But those who wish to be civilians, Jesus, they run into millions. From JforJames at aol.com Sun May 25 10:56:55 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 10:56:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 2003 Boston Poetry Marathon conference June 5-8 Message-ID: <1d0.a4c67ad.2c0233b7@aol.com> Subj: 2003 Boston Poetry Marathon conference June 5-8 Date: 5/25/03 12:12:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: bostonpoetry at thevortex.com (Boston Poetry Marathon) 2003 BOSTON POETRY MARATHON at the Art Institute of Boston, 700 Beacon Street in Kenmore Square **Thursday, June 5 : 7pm-9:30pm** Tom Sleigh, Lisa Bourbeau, Thomas Fink, Dianne Wald, Wanda Phipps, Michael Magee, Dan Bouchard **Friday, June 6 : 7pm-9:30pm** Fanny Howe, Bin Ramke, Martine Bellen, Dick Lourie, Sam Truitt, Joanna Fuhrman, Maria Damon **Saturday, June 7: 2pm-5pm** Maggie Nelson, Prageeta Sharma, Arielle Greenberg, Lori Lubeski, Jocelyn Emerson, Linda Russo, Douglas Rothschild, Aaron Kiely, Sean Cole **Saturday, June 7: 7pm-9:30pm** Paul Hoover, Maxine Chernoff, David Shapiro, Lee Ann Brown, Sarah Manguso, Mark Bibbins, Jim Behrle **Sunday, June 8: 2pm-5pm** Ruth Lepson, Johannes Goransson, Aaron Kunin, David Kirschenbaum, Paisley Rekdal, Peter Richards, Tanya Larkin, Mike Sikkema All readings are free and open to the public. For more info, contact Donna de la Perri?re, Joanna Fuhrman, and Joseph Lease at: bostonpoetry at thevortex.com From halvard at earthlink.net Sun May 25 10:57:14 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 10:57:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: David Antin, 5 meditations Message-ID: meditation 12 if we slowly approach a surface of water with our finger we often deceive ourselves about when we are wet a patient may feel the surgeon's scalpel while it is still a slight distance away meditation 13 in a city like Paris everyone who circulates for a day has a chance of being killed the probability is about one in a million if in order to avoid this risk a man renounces all his external activities and cloisters himself in his house or imposes such confinement on his wife or son people will think he is crazy the wisest persons do not hesitate to face every day a risk of death whose probability is one in a million this does not of course warrant the assertion that the considered event will never occur anyone who goes out every day into the streets of a great city knows very well a fatal accident is possible but he only thinks of this long enough to take a few precautions he does not venture out to the middle of the street without looking to the right and left he does not walk too close to doorways or too far from the light and he looks up and down to see if there are possible overhanging projectiles or underlying pitfalls but he isnt obsessed all day by fear of a probable accident meditation 14 you can define a population as a collection of separate items or individuals each of which conforms to a given definition and retains its identity for a definite interval of time then an individual is "born" or enters the population when it begins to conform to the definition and when it ceases to conform to the definition it "dies" meditation 15 a morsel of mashed potato on the tablecloth can be horrible if you pick it up thinking its a breadcrumb meditation: west the soldiers were in the habit of saying that a dying soldier was "going west" are you going west on your vacation? we turned west at Allentown and drove westward for several hours their motto was "westward ho!" the suffering in the near east was desperate --David Antin fr. *Selected Poems: 1963-1973* [Los Angeles: Sun & Moon Classics, 1991] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon May 26 09:10:06 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:10:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000001c32388$250eb0b0$ca74ed41@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Rob Stanton reading Anne Carson & doubt vs. error Kit Robinson's 9:45 & langpo's relation to the New York School Certainty is not the opposite of doubt, but rather certainty is the opposite of complexity (the far rights' war on complexity) Kristin Prevallet's Lead, Glass and Poppy: Skanky vs. Primitive The New York School, Auden & the heritage of British letters in US trade publishing Fanny Howe & the limits of close reading Rodney Koeneke: another reading of Fanny Howe's Doubt Kit Robinson reading Merrill Gilfillan's "Bull Run in October" Nate Dorward in defense of Charles Tomlinson Genre & expectation Fanny Howe's "Doubt" Rob Halpern on Aloysius Bertrand & the problem of intention at the origin of the prose poem Charles Bernstein's "In Particular" Two new books from Kristin Prevallet http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ 35,000 visitors served since September 2002 From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon May 26 09:29:45 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:29:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog References: <000001c32388$250eb0b0$ca74ed41@Dell> Message-ID: <001601c3238a$e834f6b0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Ron -- going to your blog this morning, I get the ad banner on top and nothing else. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron" To: "WOM-PO" ; ; ; ; ; "'whpoets'" Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 9:10 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > Rob Stanton > reading Anne Carson > & doubt vs. error > > Kit Robinson's 9:45 > & langpo's relation > to the New York School > > Certainty is not the opposite > of doubt, but rather > certainty is the opposite > of complexity > (the far rights' war > on complexity) > > Kristin Prevallet's > Lead, Glass and Poppy: > Skanky vs. Primitive > > The New York School, > Auden & the heritage > of British letters in > US trade publishing > > Fanny Howe > & the limits of close reading > > Rodney Koeneke: > another reading of > Fanny Howe's Doubt > > Kit Robinson > reading Merrill Gilfillan's > "Bull Run in October" > > Nate Dorward > in defense of > Charles Tomlinson > > Genre & expectation > > Fanny Howe's "Doubt" > > Rob Halpern on > Aloysius Bertrand > & the problem of intention > at the origin of the prose poem > > Charles Bernstein's > "In Particular" > > Two new books > from Kristin Prevallet > > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > 35,000 visitors served > since September 2002 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon May 26 09:30:42 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:30:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog References: <000001c32388$250eb0b0$ca74ed41@Dell> Message-ID: <001b01c3238b$060a4af0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Never mind...it finally came up, after a couple of times pressing "refresh" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron" To: "WOM-PO" ; ; ; ; ; "'whpoets'" Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 9:10 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > Rob Stanton > reading Anne Carson > & doubt vs. error > > Kit Robinson's 9:45 > & langpo's relation > to the New York School > > Certainty is not the opposite > of doubt, but rather > certainty is the opposite > of complexity > (the far rights' war > on complexity) > > Kristin Prevallet's > Lead, Glass and Poppy: > Skanky vs. Primitive > > The New York School, > Auden & the heritage > of British letters in > US trade publishing > > Fanny Howe > & the limits of close reading > > Rodney Koeneke: > another reading of > Fanny Howe's Doubt > > Kit Robinson > reading Merrill Gilfillan's > "Bull Run in October" > > Nate Dorward > in defense of > Charles Tomlinson > > Genre & expectation > > Fanny Howe's "Doubt" > > Rob Halpern on > Aloysius Bertrand > & the problem of intention > at the origin of the prose poem > > Charles Bernstein's > "In Particular" > > Two new books > from Kristin Prevallet > > http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ > > 35,000 visitors served > since September 2002 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon May 26 09:39:16 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 09:39:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gallery References: <000001c32388$250eb0b0$ca74ed41@Dell> Message-ID: <001f01c3238c$33da6450$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> New in the poet gallery: Sam Hamill E. Ethelbert Miller Jorie Graham Rae Armantrout Paul Goodman http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/pojazz.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon May 26 12:10:20 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:10:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk References: <018f01c31fe3$eb5a3260$5b15e589@TECH> <002a01c31fe5$a37a9f00$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <039501c323a1$96ba3b80$e8b5fea9@j1c1k6> > Taxonomy rides again! > > Tad Nope. What is occurring here is typology. Taxonomy is systematic; this isn't. Would "chatter poems" work? I haven't read these poets, so wouldn't know. "Ultra talk" poems makes them sound mot so much as talk to an extreme as talk on a very high (good?) plane. --Bob G. From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon May 26 12:15:20 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:15:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Slow loading on Blogger In-Reply-To: <200305261601.h4QG1BST007839@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000201c323a2$04fa1c00$ca74ed41@Dell> Blogger is iffy software at best. There is supposed to be a new revision of the program in a matter of weeks, if not days. It's supposed to work better, but I'll believe it when I see it. They're already telling us we will have do some extra workarounds into include characters such as accented letters. Ron From halvard at earthlink.net Mon May 26 18:53:51 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 18:53:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul Muldoon on The Newshour (PBS) Message-ID: If *The Newshour* hasn't yet aired on the PBS station near you, you might be interested in an interview with Paul Muldoon being shown. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From ems9 at stargate.pitt.edu Sun May 25 15:54:52 2003 From: ems9 at stargate.pitt.edu (ellen smith) Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 14:54:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery's Latest: a review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David: Is this a found poem? >Upon Reading John Ashbery's Twenty-Fourth Collection of Poems > > >The Prairie Summer Players are doing Frawley's *Mops of Fate* >again this June, and believe you me it's not to be missed, >easily the best thing they've produced since the salad days >of the incomparable Merv & Herv, our late lamented bachelor twins >who sang so candidly--could we ever forget their sweet duet >in *Love Almanac* or the final medley in *Oblique Street*? >--but this summer, I kid you not, looks to be the equal >of anything we've seen to date from this revitalized troupe >so ably directed by Rich Piotrowski with his quicksilver wit >and that glittering set! all those period costumes! >hardly costing twenty-five bucks total, that Rich is a wizard >at beg-steal-borrowing props and mothballed dresses and whatnot-- > >but anyway, long story short and I'm not just saying this >on account of I have that teensiest little part myself, >you won't go away unsatisfied. Period. Full stop. >I'm not at liberty to say who slays who or how he/she does it, >nor will I mention in what classic fashion >the Sultan's slave boy finally manages to save Luella Drake, >but suffice it to say you won't recognize old Bonnie Smeldon, >making her debut as the nefarious Cat Spirit, she'll literally >knock your socks, and so will Rusty Caddis who is >just perfectly cast as the half-cracked merchant >with a long-held secret. You won't believe this is >the selfsame guy who sold you your mortgage and strums banjo >in the Gimpy Geezer Old-Time Jazz Band every >July Oh Four--which is, don't get me wrong, a lot of fun too >in its own way, but, and how can I say this >without sounding snotty, I don't mean to be critical, >but I guess I'll just come right out with it-- >who every dreamed that old Rusty Caddis had it in him? >I mean really. The man's got a platterload of talent. >He could really do something if he ever got the notion >is what I'm saying. He truly and actually could, no lie. > > >==================================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >==================================================== > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 27 10:02:58 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 10:02:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] West Chester Poetry Conference Message-ID: <6a.315712e1.2c04ca12@aol.com> Announcement-- The most prestigious event of its kind, the West Chester Poetry Conference will convene June 4-7, 2003. This year's guests and panelists include Dana Gioia, Anthony Hecht, J. D. McClatchy, Mary Jo Salter, Rachel Hadas and Adam Kirsch; the keynote speaker will be William Jay Smith. The editors of the CPR, including Garrick Davis and James Rother, will be in attendance as well. Click here for program information, or to register as a poet or scholar.? For more information, contact Kate Northrop at poetry at wcupa.edu or (610) 436-3235. From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue May 27 10:10:07 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 09:10:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery's Latest: a review In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > David: Is this a found poem? > No, I'm afraid I made it all up. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > From: ellen smith > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 14:54:52 -0500 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ashbery's Latest: a review > > David: Is this a found poem? > > >> Upon Reading John Ashbery's Twenty-Fourth Collection of Poems >> >> >> The Prairie Summer Players are doing Frawley's *Mops of Fate* >> again this June, and believe you me it's not to be missed, >> easily the best thing they've produced since the salad days >> of the incomparable Merv & Herv, our late lamented bachelor twins >> who sang so candidly--could we ever forget their sweet duet >> in *Love Almanac* or the final medley in *Oblique Street*? >> --but this summer, I kid you not, looks to be the equal >> of anything we've seen to date from this revitalized troupe >> so ably directed by Rich Piotrowski with his quicksilver wit >> and that glittering set! all those period costumes! >> hardly costing twenty-five bucks total, that Rich is a wizard >> at beg-steal-borrowing props and mothballed dresses and whatnot-- >> >> but anyway, long story short and I'm not just saying this >> on account of I have that teensiest little part myself, >> you won't go away unsatisfied. Period. Full stop. >> I'm not at liberty to say who slays who or how he/she does it, >> nor will I mention in what classic fashion >> the Sultan's slave boy finally manages to save Luella Drake, >> but suffice it to say you won't recognize old Bonnie Smeldon, >> making her debut as the nefarious Cat Spirit, she'll literally >> knock your socks, and so will Rusty Caddis who is >> just perfectly cast as the half-cracked merchant >> with a long-held secret. You won't believe this is >> the selfsame guy who sold you your mortgage and strums banjo >> in the Gimpy Geezer Old-Time Jazz Band every >> July Oh Four--which is, don't get me wrong, a lot of fun too >> in its own way, but, and how can I say this >> without sounding snotty, I don't mean to be critical, >> but I guess I'll just come right out with it-- >> who every dreamed that old Rusty Caddis had it in him? >> I mean really. The man's got a platterload of talent. >> He could really do something if he ever got the notion >> is what I'm saying. He truly and actually could, no lie. >> >> >> ==================================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> Home Page: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >> Poetry Library: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >> ==================================================== >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 27 10:52:04 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 10:52:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] West Chester Poetry Conference References: <6a.315712e1.2c04ca12@aol.com> Message-ID: <002801c3245f$8a994760$4f27fea9@j1c1k6> >Announcement--The most prestigious event of its >kind, the West Chester Poetry Conference Sez who? I know it's just hype, but why such a description instead of a simple announcement that the conference will be held and so-and-so will be panelists, etc.? Bob G., back from discussing E. E. Cummings as a panelist at the American Literature Association convention, which was not the most pretigious event of its kind but was fun. I caught a nice paper on Frost, three papers on Pound, three on Robert Duncan and Denise Levertov, five on Cummings. I wasn't staying in Cambridge where the event was, so wasn't able to attend more. From mandolin at mac.com Tue May 27 11:15:10 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:15:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] West Chester Poetry Conference Message-ID: <2483948.1054048510428.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Tuesday, May 27, 2003, at 10:52AM, Bob Grumman wrote: >>Announcement--The most prestigious event of its >>kind, the West Chester Poetry Conference > >Sez who? > >I know it's just hype, but why such a description instead of a simple >announcement that the conference will be held and so-and-so will be >panelists, etc.? > >Bob G., back from discussing E. E. Cummings as a panelist at the American >Literature Association convention, which was not the most pretigious event >of its kind but was fun. I caught a nice paper on Frost, three papers on >Pound, three on Robert Duncan and Denise Levertov, five on Cummings. I >wasn't staying in Cambridge where the event was, so wasn't able to attend >more. > > Not just hype, Bob. No other annual conference focused on metrical and narrative verse remotely rivals West Chester. Of course, that may be because it's the only one. If there are others, I'd love to hear about them. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue May 27 11:34:21 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 11:34:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] West Chester Poetry Conference References: <2483948.1054048510428.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <003a01c32465$72d58ac0$4f27fea9@j1c1k6> > >>Announcement--The most prestigious event of its > >>kind, the West Chester Poetry Conference > > > >Sez who? > > > >I know it's just hype, but why such a description instead of a simple > >announcement that the conference will be held and so-and-so will be > >panelists, etc.? > > > >Bob G., back from discussing E. E. Cummings as a panelist at the American > >Literature Association convention, which was not the most pretigious event > >of its kind but was fun. I caught a nice paper on Frost, three papers on > >Pound, three on Robert Duncan and Denise Levertov, five on Cummings. I > >wasn't staying in Cambridge where the event was, so wasn't able to attend > >more. > > > > > Not just hype, Bob. No other annual conference focused on metrical and narrative verse remotely rivals West Chester. Of course, that may be because it's the only one. If there are others, I'd love to hear about them. Ah, so. I still don't like it, but that makes it forgivable. (I think I would never use the adjective, "prestigious," except in some such phrase as "considered pretigious by many.") --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 27 17:22:33 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:22:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] ultra-talk Message-ID: In a message dated 5/22/03 8:30:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes: > "Talkiness" doesn't wear well, for the most > part. It seems to me that three things will make ultra-talk poetry work... 1) Engaging Speaker: (in general because of appealing irreverence or insouciance, the smart & sassy type, or a certain curmudgeonly charm or even lurid/repellent appeal). 2) Extravagance: of the musing/telling, everything is seen/heard with a heightened awareness, things are blown out of proportion, with plenty of fanciful suppositions along the way. 3) Complications: more than one thing is being addressed at once, multiple themes or lines of thought are being pursued through segues and asides Or to put it a different way, I think when these poems work it's because the speaker, like a good juggler, is keeping a lot of balls in the air, and then just when it's getting ho-hum, she/he steps it up a notch, and another, by beginning to introduce more difficult things into the airborne ambit of the poem, dropping a ball and picking up a baseball bat, say, then a toaster, then a chain saw, and this is done through heightened attention to aspects of the things chosen to speak about or by the sheer novelty of poet's perspective on each of the various things going on all at once in the poem... and somehow he/she keeps it all from crashing down around his head, or, if it does crash, it's still fun to watch it happen. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Tue May 27 17:36:48 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:36:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk Message-ID: <1ec.9a0d3ff.2c053470@aol.com> In a message dated 5/21/03 10:24:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > Kenneth Fearing, Paul > Blackburn, A. R. Ammons, and Allen Ginsberg, and add to them many > contemporaries as distinct from each other as Berndadette Mayer, Billy > Collins, David Lehman, and Eileen Myles. > ------------------- Another poet who fits under this rubric is Charles Bukowski. He had sort of a dry (if drunken) and dead-pan manner that always came off well, for me. Also, there was his wry approach to all conventional wisdom/notions. Much of who he was in the poetry may have been persona, but I couldn't help but listen. Finnegan From halvard at earthlink.net Tue May 27 17:40:57 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:40:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] ultra-talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes: { > "Talkiness" doesn't wear well, for the most { > part. { { It seems to me that three things will make ultra-talk poetry { work... { 1) Engaging Speaker: (in general because { of appealing irreverence or insouciance, the { smart & sassy type, or a certain { curmudgeonly charm or even lurid/repellent { appeal). { 2) Extravagance: of the musing/telling, { everything is seen/heard with a heightened { awareness, things are blown out of proportion, { with plenty of fanciful suppositions along the way. { 3) Complications: more than one thing { is being addressed at once, multiple themes { or lines of thought are being pursued { through segues and asides { { Or to put it a different way, I think when these poems { work it's because the speaker, like a good juggler, { is keeping a lot of balls in the air, and then just when { it's getting ho-hum, she/he steps it up a notch, and another, { by beginning to introduce more difficult things { into the airborne ambit of the poem, dropping a ball { and picking up a baseball bat, say, then a toaster, { then a chain saw, and this is done through heightened { attention to aspects of the things chosen to speak about { or by the sheer novelty of poet's perspective { on each of the various things going on all at once in the poem... { and somehow he/she keeps it all from crashing down { around his head, or, if it does crash, it's still fun to watch it { happen. { Finnegan In other words, the same things that make garden-variety poetry readings work on those rare occasions when they do? Hal "Art is controversial." --Madonna Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From dicka at optonline.net Tue May 27 20:36:06 2003 From: dicka at optonline.net (Richard Attanasio) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 20:36:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: West Chester Poetry Conference In-Reply-To: <200305271601.h4RG1OST012367@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5E6EA2DE-90A4-11D7-99DE-000393DE187A@optonline.net> Is anybody on this list going to this "oldest established permanent .." poetry conference? Richard From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue May 27 21:58:43 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 18:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk Message-ID: <20030528015843.EB11CABAC@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From luap at mallasch.com Tue May 27 22:55:08 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 21:55:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ultra-Talk In-Reply-To: <20030528015843.EB11CABAC@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: Hank Chinaski (aka Charles Bukowski) is one of the best poets to come out of this country. his 'fiction' never really did it for me. notes from a dirty old man, etc. he was tough, but the poet peeked through. you could see he saw in his poems. the movie Barfly (with Mickey Rourke) was based on his life - he has a cameo in the movie - one of the bar scenes. i just happened to see this mention so apologies if any of this was already talked about ;) -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Tue, 27 May 2003, CobbCoStudioArts wrote: > James, > > Charles Bukowski also wrote novels. His "Ham on Rye" published by Black Sparrow Press, Santa Rosa, 2001, may be, at least in part, autobiographical. During his lifetime Bukowski published more than forty-five books of poetry and prose, He died in San Pedro, California on March 9, 1994 at the age of seventy-three, shortly after completing his last novel, "Pulp" (1994). He is one of my favorite writers. > > Bob > > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > > --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 5/21/03 10:24:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > > >> Kenneth Fearing, Paul > >> Blackburn, A. R. Ammons, and Allen Ginsberg, and add to them many > >> contemporaries as distinct from each other as Berndadette Mayer, Billy > >> Collins, David Lehman, and Eileen Myles. > >> ------------------- > >Another poet who fits under this rubric is Charles Bukowski. He > >had sort of a dry (if drunken) and dead-pan manner that always came > >off well, for me. Also, there was his wry approach to all conventional > >wisdom/notions. Much of who he was in the poetry may have been persona, > >but I couldn't help but listen. > >Finnegan > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From chryss at silcom.com Wed May 28 01:57:49 2003 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 22:57:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: West Chester Poetry Conference In-Reply-To: <5E6EA2DE-90A4-11D7-99DE-000393DE187A@optonline.net> Message-ID: I'm not going this year, but have been to quite a few. I highly recommend it to any poet interested in studying the craft of formal verse, or meeting the masters. C. In the message on 5/27/03 5:36 PM, Richard Attanasio wrote: > Is anybody on this list going to this "oldest established permanent .." > poetry conference? > > Richard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard at earthlink.net Wed May 28 08:59:24 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:59:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP: Luciano Berio (1925-2003) Message-ID: May 28, 2003 Luciano Berio, 77, Composer of Mind and Heart, Dies By PAUL GRIFFITHS Luciano Berio, an Italian composer whose many compositions, ranging from chamber music to large-scale orchestral works and from operas to songs, combined innovative imagination and analytical depth with a richly sensuous feeling for sound and form, died yesterday in Rome. He was 77. An outstanding orchestral and vocal composer who was perhaps most remarked upon for his works with solo voice, he was especially known during his long residence in New York City for conducting his own works with the Juilliard Ensemble, which he founded. Mr. Berio's love for music was exuberantly promiscuous, and it drew him close to Italian opera (especially Monteverdi and Verdi), 20th-century modernism (especially Stravinsky), popular music (the Beatles, jazz), the great Romantic symphonists (Schubert, Brahms, Mahler) and folk songs from around the world. All gave him models for original compositions or arrangements, or for works that were neither entirely new nor entirely old, works in which threads of the old could be combined with new strands. An outstanding example is the middle movement of his "Sinfonia" for orchestra and vocal octet (1968-9), where the entire scherzo from Mahler's "Resurrection" Symphony rolls along, supporting a tapestry of short quotations, new ideas and spoken interjections. Even when his music is ostensibly original it conveys a homage to the past. For him to write an opera, a concerto, a string quartet or a piece for solo clarinet was to contribute to a tradition. That did not mean following traditional forms, which would have been far from his thinking. Rather, the piece would emerge and develop as if it were a memory, evoking textures and situations from the past. Mr. Berio was born on Oct. 24, 1925, into a musical family long resident in the Ligurian coastal town of Oneglia. His grandfather was his first teacher, and he grew up surrounded by chamber music. Immediately after World War II he entered the Milan Conservatory, where he studied composition with Giorgio Federico Ghedini, whose neo-Baroque style was an early influence, along with the music of Stravinsky. Among his fellow students was the American singer Cathy Berberian, whom he married in 1950, and with whom he made frequent visits to the United States, encountering a fellow Italian, Luigi Dallapiccola, at Tanglewood and electronic music in New York. Under these influences he entered the modernist stream with works like "Chamber Music" (1953), a set of James Joyce songs he wrote for Ms. Berberian to sing with clarinet, cello and harp. A meeting with another Italian, Bruno Maderna, brought him to the Darmstadt summer school, the annual meeting place in Germany for the European avant-garde. He attended regularly between 1954 and 1959, and so came to know Pierre Boulez, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Gyorgy Ligeti, Mauricio Kagel among others. Contributing to their endeavors for radical innovation, he produced his most complicated conceptions, notably "Tempi Concertati" for flute, violin, two pianos and four instrumental groups (1958-9). Other works of this period include his first electronic pieces. He was co-director with Maderna of a studio for electronic music at the Milan station of Italian radio and produced one of the early classics of tape music: "Thema (Omaggio a Joyce)" (1958), based on a recording of Ms. Berberian's reading from Joyce's "Ulysses." In the same year, with "Sequenza I" for flute, he instituted a series of solo studies, each considering the history, performance style and aura of an instrument. By the time of his death he had composed 14 such pieces, for most of the standard Western instruments, including the human voice. As patterns of virtuosity, these pieces often prompted elaboration. For example, "Sequenza VI" (1967), which has a viola player scrubbing vigorously at tremolo chords, generated in succession "Chemins II" for the same viola player with nonet (1967), "Chemins III" for the viola with orchestra (1967), "Chemins IIb" for small orchestra (1969), a score from which the original solo viola has disappeared, and "Chemins IIc" (1972), in which it has been replaced by a bass clarinet. Here Mr. Berio was using his own music in the ways he often used others' music, as material to be analyzed, explored, imitated and developed. Meanwhile, he was pursuing his fascination with the human voice and with the drama of song. Mr. Berio's first composition for the theater, "Passaggio," had its premiere at the Piccola Scala in Milan in 1963 and was a provocative expression of its sole female character's subjection to social pressures. Subsequently his dramatic works became more poetic than political. "Laborintus II" (1965) is based on an anticapitalist poem by his longstanding friend Edoardo Sanguineti, but the music provides a gorgeous, dreamlike flow of imagery for voices and chamber orchestra, more engulfing than supporting the reciter. Between 1963 and 1971 Mr. Berio lived largely in New York with his Japanese-American second wife, Susan. He taught at the Juilliard School, where he founded the Juilliard Ensemble, and became more active as a conductor. He wrote "Sinfonia" for Leonard Bernstein and the Philharmonic, and his first full-scale opera, simply called "Opera," for the Santa Fe Opera, which produced it in 1970. In 1972 he returned to Italy, to a house on the edge of the hill town of Radicondoli, near Siena. In the mid-70's he became a co-director of Mr. Boulez's computer music institute in Paris, which he left in 1980 to establish his own facility in Florence, Tempo Reale. His biggest work of the decade after "Opera" was "Coro," for 40 singers and 40 instrumentalists (1975-6), an interweaving of folksong-inspired melodies with massive choral settings of words by Pablo Neruda, contrasting individual freedom with oppressive authority. He then returned to opera for two collaborations with Italo Calvino: "Una vera storia," first performed in Florence in 1982, and "Un re in Ascolto," written for the 1984 Salzburg Festival. Both these works were, like "Opera," deconstructions of the genre. The first part of "Una Vera Storia" is a theatrical analysis of Verdi's "Il Trovatore," the second a new synthesis of the discovered musical-dramatic elements. "Un re in Ascolto," which was given its American premiere by the Lyric Opera of Chicago in 1996, reworks parts of Shakespeare's "Tempest" in a form in which rehearsal, performance and memory coalesce. Narrative is still more dissolved in "Outis," first performed at La Scala, Milan, in 1996. The opera is loosely based on the myth of Odysseus and incorporates 20th-century images of assassination, exile and genocide. "Cronaca del Luogo," performed at the 1999 Salzburg Festival, was a return to the format of "Passaggio," with a single female character but now representing the heroic women of the Hebrew Bible. The concern with Jewish subject matter in these later operas ? as well as in the magnificent "Ofanim" for instrumental groups, children's voices, electronic resources and, again, a solo female vocalist (1988-97) ? was stimulated by his third wife, the Israeli-born Talia Packer Berio, who was as important an influence on the music he wrote in his 60's and 70's as Berberian had been in his 20's and 30's. Ms. Packer Berio created the libretto for "Cronaca del Luogo" and also drew her husband's attention to the symphonic sketches by Schubert that he used in "Rendering" for orchestra (1988-90). Other late orchestral works, notably "Formazioni" (1985-7) and "Concerto II" with solo piano (1988-90), show Mr. Berio's continuing ability to find new ways for the orchestra to speak, vividly and beautifully, while solo instruments went on having their say as he extended the "Sequenza" series. But perhaps his most personal and powerful achievements are works centered on a solo female voice, all the way from "Chamber Music" to "Cronaca del Luogo": music that celebrates an individual's capacity, even in an unhearing world, to go on expressing pathos, love and imagination. He is survived by Ms. Packer Berio, of Radicondoli and Florence, and by two daughters, two sons and two grandchildren. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 28 09:31:15 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:31:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] ultra-talk Message-ID: <1c4.a385f0d.2c061423@aol.com> In a message dated 5/27/03 5:43:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > In other words, the same things that make garden-variety > poetry readings work on those rare occasions when they do? Hal, I wouldn't say so necessarily. None of the three would hurt any poem, but you don't (1) need a speaker, engaging or otherwise, per se (omniscience, or a pure second/third person, would work as well); and (2) if one is using a more poetic line (less prose-like) with well-seen imagery, there would be less need for an extravagance in the vision and rhetoric; and lastly, you wouldn't (3) need to complicate, you could, in fact, streamline your line of thought, focus on a particular thing/theme, you could dwell on it solely. The first, a speaker with a personality, is clearly necessary to talk poetry. The last two it could be argued are more symptoms of talk poems than necessary elements. But I think the talk poem, because it doesn't employ the normal resources of the poetic language, must use other resources to pump up the volume, so to speak. Simplifying the theme or object of attention would likely make for a boring talk poem. To use our recent example, in one of those Halliday poems he begins with "brown shoes" but then begins riffing through various suppositions about the life of the woman who wears them. Would he have bored the reader by dwelling on the shoes themselves without using more poetic means like: economy, sound, well-seen imagery, allusion, striking perspective, etc. Yet one could imagine a poem that was just about brown shoes, though about so much more, being driven by cadence, suggestion and nuance rather than by a just-one-guy-talking-here kind of speech. Finnegan From reneea at bellatlantic.net Wed May 28 09:59:47 2003 From: reneea at bellatlantic.net (Renee Ashley) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:59:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: West Chester Poetry Conference References: Message-ID: <006e01c32521$673ceb60$9c9e598a@oemcomputer> I went twice a number of years ago and enjoyed it as well. They don't move far from the formal marrow, though, which is, of course, their focus. I did discover I'm a lousy formalist though. But the dance was great fun. Wear shoes. I broke a toe bouncing around on their marble floor (not a metaphor). The folks that ran it were charming. Renee .> > Is anybody on this list going to this "oldest established permanent .." > > poetry conference? > > > > Richard > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 28 13:48:52 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 13:48:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] ultra-talk Message-ID: In a message dated 5/28/03 9:33:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > In other words, the same things that make garden-variety > > poetry readings work on those rare occasions when they Hal, I realize I misread your statement. Yes, there are some similarities to the way a poet gets the crowd on his side. Finnegan From MIM47 at aol.com Wed May 28 16:26:33 2003 From: MIM47 at aol.com (MIM47 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 16:26:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry Conference Message-ID: <135.204ac4b1.2c067579@aol.com> I wonder if any of you are thinking of going to the Teaching Poetry Conference in Santa Rosa CA at the end of July. It is fantastic (I have gone the past two years) and whether you teach or write, there is something for you. Wonderful setting too, in wine country. For info or registration please email: Julie.Alandy at scds.org Carol Bachofner From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 28 17:36:31 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:36:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Staying Alive: Real Poems for Unreal Times Message-ID: <1d3.aa73c87.2c0685df@aol.com> 'Unreal' times bring a longing for poetry Thu May 15, 7:47 AM ET Jacqueline Blais USA TODAY Meryl Streep (news) isn't a big poetry reader. Like everyone else, she has too much to do. Another thing: The ''endless yammering'' of commercials makes her want to shut out words, not a good thing for an actor, she says. But when ''someone sits me down'' and gives her a poetry book -- like Neil Astley's Staying Alive: Real Poems for Unreal Times, a new collection that's a hit in England -- she thinks: ''That's why I'm here, that's why I am alive -- to get the printed word out into the air.'' Suddenly, Streep says, everything is ''pulled up short,'' into perspective. Her love of words, of poetry, is sated. At Yale, Streep took a course in sonnets (ostensibly a voice course), where she learned to read a short poem and sustain a single thought in one breath. ''No one ever taught me anything like that.'' You'd have to hear Streep's lyrical voice as she then says, in one long breath: ''I understood that poetry, like music, has this amazing ability to move from the center of your being out through the body into someone else -- communication that's spiritual and deep and lasting.'' Poetry has been described as music from the heart. In our strange, disturbing times, are we more open to listening to it? It was true after Sept. 11, 2001, when people were lining up for a poetry event at Cooper Union in New York. The same is expected Wednesday evening when publisher Miramax Books and the Poetry Society of America sponsor readings from Staying Alive at Cooper Union. Actors Streep, Liev Shreiber and Christine Baranski (news) are invited, along with poets Paul Muldoon (who just won the Pulitzer), Lucille Clifton and Mark Strand. Staying Alive ''addresses people's fears and concerns and terror about what's happening in the world right now,'' says Eve Grubin of the poetry society. ''We believe poetry can comfort and transform people's lives. That sounds like an extreme statement, but poems really have that kind of power,'' Grubin says. ---- Poets, Actors Laud New Poetry Anthology Thu May 22, 1:23 PM ET By CLAUDIA LA ROCCO, Associated Press Writer NEW YORK - "You're very lucky tonight," poet Glyn Maxwell told the audience at Cooper Union's Great Hall. He stood at the podium Wednesday night, surrounded by an all-star cast of poets ? Charles Simic, Nina Cassian, Sharon Olds, Philip Levine and this year's Pulitzer Prize winner, Paul Muldoon. "You're getting to see poets as we really are ? with a much bigger poet behind us, looking over our shoulder," Maxwell continued, gesturing to a picture of Les Murray on a giant projection screen behind him. Seeing contemporary poetry as it really is was the goal of the evening, a celebration of the American release of "Staying Alive: Real Poems for Unreal Times," co-sponsored by Miramax Books, the book's U.S. publisher, and by the Poetry Society of America. Besides the poets, actors Meryl Streep (news), Liev Schreiber (news) and Maria Tucci read selections from the book, including works by Langston Hughes, U.S. poet laureate Billy Collins and Nobel laureate Czeslaw Milosz. The anthology, published in Great Britain in 2002, came about after editor Neil Astley read a survey showing that most Britons see contemporary poetry as pretentious, boring and irrelevant. "The trouble with that perception," Muldoon said in an interview before the reading, "is that it's only that ? a perception. The people who complain the most have never tried to read any poetry." While Astley bemoans this state of affairs, Muldoon is content. "I think it's perfectly grand," Muldoon said. "Poetry can't compete with 'American Idol,' but would it want to?" Poets have been in the headlines this past year, most notably when concern over war protests led first lady Laura Bush to cancel a Feb. 12 White House forum on "Poetry and the American Voice." Speaking before the reading Wednesday night, Streep called reactions against politically involved artists "nauseating" and blamed it on fear. "People endow artists with power they don't have, but also recognize the power they do have, to influence," she said. From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed May 28 17:50:35 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 16:50:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Discursiveness Message-ID: To shift ground a bit from ultra-talk poems to a related issue: How about poems-with-edge? I just ran across a nicely provocative short essay by Tony Hoagland in which he argues that "What much of the American poetry now being written lacks is the edge of sustained, concerted thought." http://www.pitt.edu/~nidus/archives/spring2002/edge.html In one of those handy dichotomies that is useful for dicussion if not settled understanding, Hoagland opposes the poetry of "collage" with the poetry of "discursiveness," and suggests that, while neither style is better than the other, we are witnessing rather an explosion of collage these days. And so he's inclined to call attention to the virutes of the opposite. I am struck by how his argument parallels the very one Robert Pinsky famously made back in the 1970s in his book *The Situation of Poetry*, arguing in favor of discursiveness & what he called "the prose virtues." It was only after posting about Mark Halliday & the ultra-talk poem that I remembered Pinsky's book; and while Pinsky no doubt wouldn't endorse everything that Halliday or Hoagland do, there are some interesting similarities in their arguments, I'd say. Here's a snippet from Hoagland's piece: "Let me make it clear: I don't think one of these poetic styles is better than the other. I am myself deeply attracted to the music and method of collage: Merwin and O'Hara are two of my heroes. But it is good, and important, to recognize the consequences of aesthetic choice. Poetic conventions arise and break like waves, drenching everyone on the beach. It's fun to get wet, but what a tragedy it would be for a young poet, by nature best suited to, say, discursiveness, to subscribe to the aesthetics of collage." ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 28 17:55:44 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:55:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Chicago Review Message-ID: <18a.1aa2df9a.2c068a60@aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 18:02:42 -0500 From: Chicago Review Subject: new issue / forthcoming = announcing = Chicago Review 49:1 Spring 2004 | $6 | 132 pp. POEMS by Hoa Nguyen Ian Davidson ("we followed the power lines north") John Tipton ("when I say -method-, you hear -map-") James McMichael ("The will / wills doing a thing.") Fanny Howe ("Thomas Aquinas was an itinerant thinker.") Lina Vitkauskas ("The luscious gravy / of the people has spoken.") Lisa Lubasch Karen Garthe ESSAYS by Joan Retallack ("Wager as Essay") Elizabeth Arnold ("On Lorine Niedecker") FICTION by Emily Shelton Alison Bundy ("When the pater was apprehended muling hooch in his diapers...") Joanna Howard REVIEWS of Frank Bidart Susan Wheeler Stacy Doris Norma Cole El?na Rivera Gert Hoffman Ekbert Faaaaas ("The problem with biographies is that biographers are rarely as intelligent as their subjects.") * * * * all this available for $6 plus postage ($4 domestic/$15 air), or you might subscribe for a year for $15 (overseas add $30 for shipping). To subscribe just send us an e-m with your address, and we'll send you the issue along with a bill. Daftly enough, we trust you to pay. * * * * = in forthcoming issues = POEMS by Mei-Mei Bersenbrugge Alan Gilbert Camille Guthrie Peter Larkin Mark Nowak Joan Retallack Ed Roberson Karen Volkman (and many others) ESSAYS on Robinson Jeffers Randolph Healy Ralph J. Mills, Jr. William Carlos Williams (and others) MEMOIR by Robert Adamson TRANSLATIONS of Gerhard Roth Raymond Roussel and SPECIAL SECTIONS on Edward Dorn (Winter 2003) Louis Zukofsky (Spring 2004) Christopher Middleton (Summer 2004) * * * * subscribe with the current issue, and yr $15 will carry you clear through the special issue on Dorn! * * * * [nb: the website's one issue stale; 48:4 (with Raworth collages on the cover and in the centerfold), as well as German and Brakhage issues are indeed still available] * * * * * * * * * * CHICAGO REVIEW 5801 South Kenwood Avenue Chicago IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/review/ From trbell at comcast.net Wed May 28 18:49:29 2003 From: trbell at comcast.net (tom bell) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:49:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: theory of Poethia Message-ID: <089901c3256b$673d39e0$07e63644@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom bell" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 2:39 PM Subject: theory of Poethia > A little blowing of my own horn but relevent to recent discussions _Poethia_ > single author isue #15 is out (poethia at cox.net). This is meditations in > action on Sontag's _On Representation..._ while meditating on the recent TV > war. Photography vs. reality and reality of poetry embodied per > art/TV/physicality, etc. > > tom bell > not yet a crazy old man > hard but not yet hardening of the > art From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 28 18:41:38 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 18:41:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Discursiveness References: Message-ID: <001b01c3256a$4d62fd80$334cfea9@j1c1k6> "Discursive" seems similar in meaning to "collage" to me, David. What is "discursive poetry?" I think any poem ought to have a unifying principal, including collage poems. I've gotten static for saying this from many of my burstnorm colleagues. But the unifying principal may be complex, and hard to put into words. A mood, for instance. I think O'Hara's best poems have a unifying principal--though I'm not enough familiar with his work to give examples. --Bob G. From luap at mallasch.com Wed May 28 18:52:29 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:52:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Discursiveness In-Reply-To: <001b01c3256a$4d62fd80$334cfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: Discursive == conversational == layman's poetry? -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Wed, 28 May 2003, Bob Grumman wrote: > "Discursive" seems similar in meaning to "collage" to me, David. What is > "discursive poetry?" I think any poem ought to have a unifying principal, > including collage poems. I've gotten static for saying this from many of my > burstnorm colleagues. But the unifying principal may be complex, and hard > to put into words. A mood, for instance. I think O'Hara's best poems have > a unifying principal--though I'm not enough familiar with his work to give > examples. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Wed May 28 18:56:01 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 18:56:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Low-Radiation MFA in Poetry: Help is on the way, Tad. Message-ID: <1ea.9b9bd29.2c069881@aol.com> Low-Radiation MFA in Poetry Program offered exclusively through the NewPoetry List Faculty: A.R. Ammons (on leave); Allen Ginsberg (on leave); May Swenson (on leave); Billy Collins (ubiquitous). Core Curriculum: 40 hours, spent in the privacy of your own home. Taxonomy 101: School's out, baby. (Team taught by Bob & Marcus) How To Slip Big Words Into Your Poems Rhyme: Is There an Echo in Here? The Long Poem: Strategies for Staying Awake Language Poetry: Never Worry About Typos Again Stuck On Magnetic Poetry E-phemeral Publishing: If You Read My Blog, I'll Read Yours Workshop: Groups of no more than ten 20-somethings, raised by big-screen TV sets, telling you why your poem sucks. Tuition: $50 per credit hour by credit card, at: www.myMFA.com. Diploma may be downloaded upon payment confirmation, add $10 for hardcopy suitable for framing. From luap at mallasch.com Wed May 28 19:43:57 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 18:43:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Low-Radiation MFA in Poetry: Help is on the way, Tad. In-Reply-To: <1ea.9b9bd29.2c069881@aol.com> Message-ID: www.myMFA.com Do you actually own the domain? thanks for the smile. -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Wed, 28 May 2003 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Low-Radiation MFA in Poetry Program > offered exclusively through the NewPoetry List > > Faculty: A.R. Ammons (on leave); Allen Ginsberg (on leave); > May Swenson (on leave); Billy Collins (ubiquitous). > > Core Curriculum: 40 hours, spent in the privacy of your own home. > Taxonomy 101: School's out, baby. (Team taught by Bob & Marcus) > How To Slip Big Words Into Your Poems > Rhyme: Is There an Echo in Here? > The Long Poem: Strategies for Staying Awake > Language Poetry: Never Worry About Typos Again > Stuck On Magnetic Poetry > E-phemeral Publishing: If You Read My Blog, I'll Read Yours > > Workshop: Groups of no more than ten 20-somethings, raised > by big-screen TV sets, telling you why your poem sucks. > > Tuition: > $50 per credit hour by credit card, > at: www.myMFA.com. > Diploma may be downloaded > upon payment confirmation, > add $10 for hardcopy suitable for framing. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed May 28 20:07:49 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:07:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Low-Radiation MFA in Poetry: Help is on the way, Tad. References: <1ea.9b9bd29.2c069881@aol.com> Message-ID: <3ED54F54.EC64801D@earthlink.net> You also need to offer: Coping With War & Bush: How to Write Nice Angry Poems. Also: Discursive Poetry: Each Poem the Golden Book of Anything. - Jim, demanding an honorary degree p.s. - Who will be the commencement poet? JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Low-Radiation MFA in Poetry Program > offered exclusively through the NewPoetry List > > Faculty: A.R. Ammons (on leave); Allen Ginsberg (on leave); > May Swenson (on leave); Billy Collins (ubiquitous). > > Core Curriculum: 40 hours, spent in the privacy of your own home. > Taxonomy 101: School's out, baby. (Team taught by Bob & Marcus) > How To Slip Big Words Into Your Poems > Rhyme: Is There an Echo in Here? > The Long Poem: Strategies for Staying Awake > Language Poetry: Never Worry About Typos Again > Stuck On Magnetic Poetry > E-phemeral Publishing: If You Read My Blog, I'll Read Yours > > Workshop: Groups of no more than ten 20-somethings, raised > by big-screen TV sets, telling you why your poem sucks. > > Tuition: > $50 per credit hour by credit card, > at: www.myMFA.com. > Diploma may be downloaded > upon payment confirmation, > add $10 for hardcopy suitable for framing. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From poemlady at cox.net Wed May 28 21:22:25 2003 From: poemlady at cox.net (Audrey Friedman) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:22:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry Conference References: <135.204ac4b1.2c067579@aol.com> Message-ID: <002401c32580$c2fa48d0$f0430e44@Zoom> How I wish there was a conference like this on the East Coast! Good to see you here, Carol! Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 4:26 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry Conference > I wonder if any of you are thinking of going to the Teaching Poetry > Conference in Santa Rosa CA at the end of July. It is fantastic (I have gone the past > two years) and whether you teach or write, there is something for you. > Wonderful setting too, in wine country. > > For info or registration please email: Julie.Alandy at scds.org > > > Carol Bachofner > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed May 28 21:31:37 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 20:31:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry Conference In-Reply-To: <002401c32580$c2fa48d0$f0430e44@Zoom> Message-ID: I don't know much about the Santa Rosa conference, but there is a conference on the East Coast that you might wish to check out. It's The Conference on Poetry & Teaching at the Frost Place in Franconia NH, this year June 23-27. It is run by Baron Wormser and Donald Sheehan. I was on the faculty there a couple years ago, and can testify that it is a very small but well run, practically-oriented conference. More info: http://www.frostplace.com/festival/teaching.html ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > From: "Audrey Friedman" > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:22:25 -0400 > To: > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry Conference > > How I wish there was a conference like this on the East Coast! Good to see > you here, Carol! > Audrey > From poemlady at cox.net Wed May 28 21:33:55 2003 From: poemlady at cox.net (Audrey Friedman) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:33:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry Conference References: Message-ID: <006c01c32582$5e38c1e0$f0430e44@Zoom> Yes, I know about this one. Unfortunately, it is just a couple of days before my summer MFA residency at VT. College. Gray Jacobik was there last summer, and how I wish I could have been. Can't do it all at once. I'll be patient! Thanks, David. Great advice. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:31 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry Conference > I don't know much about the Santa Rosa conference, but there is a conference > on the East Coast that you might wish to check out. > > It's The Conference on Poetry & Teaching at the Frost Place in Franconia NH, > this year June 23-27. It is run by Baron Wormser and Donald Sheehan. > > I was on the faculty there a couple years ago, and can testify that it is a > very small but well run, practically-oriented conference. > > More info: > > http://www.frostplace.com/festival/teaching.html > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > From: "Audrey Friedman" > > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:22:25 -0400 > > To: > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry Conference > > > > How I wish there was a conference like this on the East Coast! Good to see > > you here, Carol! > > Audrey > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed May 28 21:35:52 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:35:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Low-Radiation MFA in Poetry: Help is on the way, Tad. References: <1ea.9b9bd29.2c069881@aol.com> Message-ID: <001b01c32582$a64dd240$16c1fea9@j1c1k6> Surely Marcus and I are not the only Big Names on our faculty, James! Who is teaching the other courses? --Bob G. > Low-Radiation MFA in Poetry Program > offered exclusively through the NewPoetry List > > Faculty: A.R. Ammons (on leave); Allen Ginsberg (on leave); > May Swenson (on leave); Billy Collins (ubiquitous). > > Core Curriculum: 40 hours, spent in the privacy of your own home. > Taxonomy 101: School's out, baby. (Team taught by Bob & Marcus) > How To Slip Big Words Into Your Poems > Rhyme: Is There an Echo in Here? > The Long Poem: Strategies for Staying Awake > Language Poetry: Never Worry About Typos Again > Stuck On Magnetic Poetry > E-phemeral Publishing: If You Read My Blog, I'll Read Yours > > Workshop: Groups of no more than ten 20-somethings, raised > by big-screen TV sets, telling you why your poem sucks. > > Tuition: > $50 per credit hour by credit card, > at: www.myMFA.com. > Diploma may be downloaded > upon payment confirmation, > add $10 for hardcopy suitable for framing. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From trbell at comcast.net Wed May 28 23:46:24 2003 From: trbell at comcast.net (tom bell) Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 22:46:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Write for the Heath of It Message-ID: <003f01c32594$e1d31340$07e63644@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> Seminar starting on June 1 "Write for the Health of It. Write for the Heath of It course at http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/17413/seminar tom bell not yet a crazy old man hard but not yet hardening of the art From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu May 29 01:12:29 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:12:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Gary Sullivan -- FUCK BUSH Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030529000956.01a9c280@mail.ilstu.edu> Searched the Web for "FUCK BUSH" Fuck Bush Fuck George Bush Fuck George W Fuck you president asshole Fuck Bush Fuck the FBI Fuck the CIA Fuck the Selective Service CLICK HERE "Blow me?" 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Buh buh buh fuck bush buh buh buh cow cow cow Buh buh buh xcrew crow crow I fuckin hate america and i have to take this fuckin test just to fuckin graudate in the state of NY: "Oggi si ? svolto a Pratica di mare" illegal yo blue ribbon mec fraternite blue stars "il vertice NATO-Russia" vaisseau desert wouaf radical rave unit "e nel primo pomeriggio era" du balai fleche rose blue bubbles tongue "prevista la visita di Bush a Roma" Not My President www.fearbush.com www.bushstolethepresidency.com Fuck Bush Kiss My Oil Assets Babies Against Stupid Grownups Fixed Election = Broken Democracy Bush + Dick = Screwed Any Last Words? (No Pun Intended) --Gary Sullivan From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu May 29 01:15:30 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 00:15:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Linh Dinh poetry book Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030529001521.01ad2dd0@mail.ilstu.edu> >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 18:27:56 -1000 >From: Susan Webster Schultz >Subject: Linh Dinh poetry book >Sender: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Reply-to: UB Poetics discussion group >X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) > >Tinfish Press (with Subpress) announces the imminent publication of >Linh Dinh's poetry book, _All Around What Empties Out_. Please see the >following link for details. And by all means, please send this message >and its link around! > >aloha, Susan > >http://maven.english.hawaii.edu/tinfish/hot_off_the_press.html _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Assistant Professor of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From marcus at designerglass.com Thu May 29 06:56:18 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:56:18 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Discursiveness Message-ID: <200305291053.h4TArdST004354@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Bob Grumman: > ... I think O'Hara's best poems have > a unifying principal--though I'm not enough familiar with his work to give > examples.<< I think Bob Grumman's poems are really terrible, though I'm not enough familiar with his work to give examples. Come ON, Bob! Is that really the standard of evidence you want applied in the world at large? Do you want to hear physicians who say "Well, I think he has appendicitis, though I'm not enough familiar with his case to demonstrate it -- let's take his appendix out, anyway."? From marcus at designerglass.com Thu May 29 06:56:18 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:56:18 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Discursiveness Message-ID: <200305291053.h4TArdST004353@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Bob Grumman: > ... I think O'Hara's best poems have > a unifying principal--though I'm not enough familiar with his work to give > examples.<< I think Bob Grumman's poems are really terrible, though I'm not enough familiar with his work to give examples. Come ON, Bob! Is that really the standard of evidence you want applied in the world at large? Do you want to hear physicians who say "Well, I think he has appendicitis, though I'm not enough familiar with his case to demonstrate it -- let's take his appendix out, anyway."? From halvard at earthlink.net Thu May 29 08:36:48 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 08:36:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: George Hitchcock, "Consider the Poet" Message-ID: Consider the Poet who walks in a stony field behind his plow turning up old flints adze-heads and the bones of ptarmigan, who lives in terror of tea-leaves ink-blots and mendicant feathers, who spends his tears on jujubes, and on feast-days pulls coins from dirty ears to the applause of grass-blades; whose overcoat is specked with the dandruff of alphabets; a salamander born in the hospitable lava, he traffics in scoriac mysteries and scalds the hands of those who put trust in him: Arbiter of waters, Nuncio of the wild iris, Ishmaelite among the tenements of eyes, you salute each morning the flags which flutter in the cottonwoods and bear in your lung the deadly flower of recollection. --George Hitchcock in *Monks Pond* No. 2, Summer, 1968 in *Monks Pond: Thomas Merton's Little Magazine* [Lexington, Kentucky: Univ. Press of Kentucky, 1989] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu May 29 11:11:13 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:11:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Discursiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Discursive == conversational == layman's poetry? > > -kpaul Here's how I'd define these terms: "collage" features jump-cuts and other discontinuities, rapid & abrupt shifts of syntax, diction, tone, narrative thread, idea, etc. This sort of thing seems nearly omnipresent to me when I open certain journals--C. D. Wright & Jorie Graham might be examples of current collagists, in much of their work. In contrast, while "discursive" poems may certainly ramble and digress, they maintain conventional syntax and more than mere threads of continuity in terms of narrative, argument, scene, etc. Discursive poems are often essayistic. Mark Halliday is nothing if not discursive in this manner, but I do understand how some of Goldbarth's concoctions might edge toward the collage end of the spectrum. Like Hoagland, I would say that neither style is de facto *better* than the other, though my own taste these days runs (sometimes at great velocity) away from collage. And Hoagland's right to note that collage is everywhere. Collage is a hallmark of much of what's been called postmodern, obviously, not to mention modernism before that. When Robert Pinsky spoke up for discursiveness as a value, he was praising poets such as James McMichael, J. V. Cunningham, and (by extension) himself. Like most polarities, this one seems useful for discussion but not as an absolute definitional endpoint. Hoagland's brief essay on the topic, if you missed it: http://www.pitt.edu/~nidus/archives/spring2002/edge.html ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > >> "Discursive" seems similar in meaning to "collage" to me, David. What is >> "discursive poetry?" I think any poem ought to have a unifying principal, >> including collage poems. I've gotten static for saying this from many of my >> burstnorm colleagues. But the unifying principal may be complex, and hard >> to put into words. A mood, for instance. I think O'Hara's best poems have >> a unifying principal--though I'm not enough familiar with his work to give >> examples. >> >> --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Thu May 29 11:37:31 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:37:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Discursiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { In contrast, while "discursive" poems may certainly ramble and digress, they { maintain conventional syntax and more than mere threads of continuity in { terms of narrative, argument, scene, etc. Discursive poems are often { essayistic. What a delightfully ambiguous term--"discursive." According to my dictionary at hand (Webster's Collegiate, this morning), it means both (a) "moving from topic to topic without order" and (b) "proceeding coherently from topic to topic." (It also means "marked by analytical reasoning-"--same source.) Who says you can't have it both ways? I've also seen the term "discursive" used to distinguish writing that's *about* something from writing that isn't. Can't say where, though, at the moment. Langer? Someone way back there in the memory bank. Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Thu May 29 11:56:10 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 11:56:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] PoetryMagazine.com Summer Issue Call for Poem Message-ID: <143.121dc35d.2c07879a@aol.com> PoetryMagazine.com Summer Issue Call for Poems-- IF YOU HAVE BEEN A PAST FEATURED POET at PoetryMagazine.com, I'd like to invite you to submit 1 to 5 poems for a special summer issue. Please submit to mary at poetrymagazine.com with "Past Feature Poet Submission, Summer, Your Name" in the subject line. Poems that have appeared previously in print are fine with credit noted, but do not send poems that have or do appear online elsewhere. Submission address: mary at poetrymagazine.com Thanks in advance, Andrena Zawinski Feature Editor http://www.poetrymagazine.com From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu May 29 13:07:44 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:07:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Discursiveness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > What a delightfully ambiguous term--"discursive." According to my dictionary > at hand (Webster's Collegiate, this morning), it means both (a) "moving from > topic to topic without order" and (b) "proceeding coherently from topic to > topic." (It also means "marked by analytical reasoning-"--same source.) > > Who says you can't have it both ways? > Take a cleaver to my definitions all you want, I'm cleaving to them. . . . (If you want even more delight, try your dictionary for "realism.") ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu May 29 13:16:36 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 12:16:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland poem Message-ID: A poem by that discursivist Tony Hoagland. . . title poem of his forthcoming collection, I believe. He's one brave poet to go with a title like that, don't you think? I can practically hear the wise-cracks percolating now. What Narcissism Means to Me There's Socialism and Communism and Capitalism said Neal, and there's Feminism and Hedonism, and there's Catholicism and Bipedalism and Consumerism, but I think Narcissism is the system that means the most to me; And Sylvia said that in Neal's case,--and here she cast her cold eye up and down his longitude-- --in his case, she continued, narcissism represented a heroic achievement in positive thinking. And Ann, who calls everybody Sweetie-pie whether she cares for them or not, Ann lit a cigarette and said, Only miserable people will tell you that love has to be deserved, and when I heard that, a distant chime went off for me. remembering a time when I believed that I could simply live without it. Neal had grilled the corn and sliced the onions, thick and white and piled the wet green pickles up in stacks like coins and his chef's cap was leaning sideways like a mushroom cloud. Then Ethan said that in his opinion, if you're going to mess around with self-love you shouldn't just rush into a relationship and Sylvia was weeping softly now into her wine cooler and potato chips, and just then, just as the hamburgers were done, the sunset in the background started cutting through the charcoal clouds exposing their insides--black, streaked dark red, like a slab of scorched, rare steak, delicious but unhealthy, or, depending on your perspective, unhealthy but delicious, --the way that deep inside the misery of daily life, love lies bleeding. Tony Hoagland. *APR* 30.5 (September/October 2001) ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu May 29 13:36:42 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Discursiveness Message-ID: <20030529173642.95FA6E4C0@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu May 29 13:54:36 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 10:54:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland poem References: Message-ID: <3ED6495C.7303CAF0@earthlink.net> Shall I compare thee to a hamburger? - Jim David Graham wrote: > > A poem by that discursivist Tony Hoagland. . . title poem of his forthcoming > collection, I believe. > > He's one brave poet to go with a title like that, don't you think? I can > practically hear the wise-cracks percolating now. > > What Narcissism Means to Me > > There's Socialism and Communism and Capitalism > said Neal, > and there's Feminism and Hedonism, > and there's Catholicism and Bipedalism and > Consumerism, > but I think Narcissism is the system > that means the most to me; > > And Sylvia said that in Neal's case,--and here she > cast her cold eye > up and down his longitude-- > > --in his case, she continued, > narcissism represented a heroic achievement in positive thinking. > > And Ann, > who calls everybody Sweetie-pie > whether she cares for them or not, > > Ann lit a cigarette and said, Only miserable people will tell you > that love has to be deserved, > > and when I heard that, a distant chime went off for me. > > remembering a time when I believed > that I could simply live without it. > > Neal had grilled the corn and sliced the onions, thick and white > and piled the wet green pickles > up in stacks like coins > and his chef's cap was leaning sideways like a mushroom cloud. > > Then Ethan said that in his opinion, > if you're going to mess around with self-love > you shouldn't just rush into a relationship > > and Sylvia was weeping softly now > into her wine cooler and potato chips, > > and just then, just as the hamburgers were done, > the sunset in the background started > cutting through the charcoal clouds > exposing their insides--black, > streaked dark red, > like a slab of scorched, rare steak, > > delicious but unhealthy, > or, depending on your perspective, > unhealthy but delicious, > > --the way that deep inside the misery > of daily life, > love lies bleeding. > > Tony Hoagland. *APR* 30.5 (September/October 2001) > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Thu May 29 16:09:37 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:09:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Double Room litmag Message-ID: <77.11e480a9.2c07c301@aol.com> http://webdelsol.com/Double_Room/ a journal of prose poems & flash fiction From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu May 29 17:09:14 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:09:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor Message-ID: Lina Vitkauskas ("The luscious gravy / of the people has spoken.") Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu May 29 17:11:33 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:11:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching conference Message-ID: For those who don't already know, both the West Chester Poetry Conference and the West Chester teaching poetry conference were founded by Dana Gioia with almost no institutional support from any quarter in his pre-Endowment days. . . . Two more reasons to be glad he's got the Endowment behind him now. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 29 18:43:48 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 18:43:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Discursiveness References: <200305291053.h4TArdST004353@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <004a01c32633$c5e1c100$12b1fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > ... I think O'Hara's best poems have > > a unifying principal--though I'm not enough familiar with his work to give > > examples.<< > > I think Bob Grumman's poems are really terrible, though I'm not enough familiar > with his work to give examples. > > Come ON, Bob! Is that really the standard of evidence you want applied in the > world at large? Do you want to hear physicians who say "Well, I think he has > appendicitis, though I'm not enough familiar with his case to demonstrate it -- > let's take his appendix out, anyway."? Not a very good parallel, Marcus. A better would be a physician saying in an informal conversation that he thought Dr. Blithers thought various arm exercises good treatment for arthritis but he wasn't familiar enough with those exercises to says exactly what they entailed. I presented an opinion about O'Hara's poetry as an opinion, then added that I was incompetent to support my opinion. I see nothing wrong with that. Not everything the Pope says is ex cathedra, you know. --Bob G. From chryss at silcom.com Thu May 29 18:52:27 2003 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:52:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Do either of these conferences get support from the Endowment now? I think they are both still predominantly privately funded, aren't they? C. In the message on 5/29/03 2:11 PM, Paul Lake wrote: > For those who don't already know, both the West Chester Poetry Conference > and the West Chester teaching poetry conference were founded by Dana Gioia > with almost no institutional support from any quarter in his pre-Endowment > days. . . . Two more reasons to be glad he's got the Endowment behind him > now. > > Paul Lake > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From chris at chrislott.org Thu May 29 19:28:32 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 15:28:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor References: Message-ID: <034e01c3263a$07ef5570$5b15e589@TECH> On Thursday, May 29, 2003 1:09 PM, Paul Lake spake thusly: > Lina Vitkauskas ("The luscious gravy / of the people has spoken.") In these parts "the luscious gravy of the people" = smegma c From halvard at earthlink.net Thu May 29 19:39:42 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:39:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Mountain" Message-ID: Here's an oldie of mine. It's from *Winter Journey*, c. '79. And I'm posting it . . . well, let's say, just because it's there. Hal ===== Mountain When I think of this mountain I mainly think of the tremendous weight it must have. I think of mass--of *mass*! The mountain moves heavily in its own way. Its ridges are studded with huge, half-exposed boulders, some perhaps ready to fall. Yet these are mere flakes compared to the dense dark mass below, those shelves and columns and slabs of subterranean rock. This mountain keeps most of itself to itself--underground and deep. And yet on its slopes and in its narrow valleys it tolerates air and light, sunshine and shadow. Clattering goats on high rocky ledges. Plunge of a stream into forest, where voices cry out in surprise. Beneath it all, the mountain--silent and sober. And beneath the mountain, the dark and massive earth. From halvard at earthlink.net Thu May 29 19:41:35 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:41:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor In-Reply-To: <034e01c3263a$07ef5570$5b15e589@TECH> Message-ID: { > Lina Vitkauskas ("The luscious gravy / of the people has spoken.") { { In these parts "the luscious gravy of the people" = smegma Don't we call that soylent green? Hal "I think pigs should be allowed to run free--just like politicians." --Edna Buchanan Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu May 29 19:57:03 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:57:03 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor References: Message-ID: <3ED69E4F.EE49DB6E@earthlink.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > { > Lina Vitkauskas ("The luscious gravy / of the people has spoken.") > { > { In these parts "the luscious gravy of the people" = smegma > > Don't we call that soylent green? Dunno, but there's pan drippings involved. - Jim From cc at opus0.com Thu May 29 19:58:50 2003 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:58:50 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Discursiveness In-Reply-To: <200305291601.h4TG1XST016123@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > From: "Halvard Johnson" > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re: Discursiveness > { In contrast, while "discursive" poems may certainly ramble > and digress, they > { maintain conventional syntax and more than mere threads of > continuity in > { terms of narrative, argument, scene, etc. Discursive poems are often > { essayistic. > > What a delightfully ambiguous term--"discursive." According to my > dictionary > at hand (Webster's Collegiate, this morning), it means both (a) > "moving from > topic to topic without order" and (b) "proceeding coherently from topic to > topic." (It also means "marked by analytical reasoning-"--same source.) > > Who says you can't have it both ways? Hal & David & all, I believe the primary distinction with discursiveness is that it flows (lit. "runs from") instead of leaps. It may flow from one logical thing to the next or it may be a "stream of consciousness"; still, it flows *sequentially*. (i.e., the sequence may be logical, chronological, alphabetical, etc. -- thus even collage could be read as a kind of discursiveness, if the eye proceeds from one object to the next in contiguous order; alternatively, discourse could be collage if the eye reads it some way other than left-to-right top-to-bottom.) For early writers, the duality was discursive/intuitive. Here's a clue I got from my OED cd: Milton P.L. Bk 5 v468 (OED gave the verse, but not the book! Forgive the imperfect editing here...) (Responding to Adam, Archangel Raphael says...) 0 Adam, one Almighty is, from whom All things proceed, and up to him return, If not depraved from good, created all Such to perfection, one first matter all, Indu'd with various forms, various degrees Of substance, and in things that live, of life; But more refined, more spiritous, and pure, As nearer to him placed or nearer tending Each in their several active Spheres assigned, Till body up to spirit work, in bounds Proportioned to each kind. So from the root Springs lighter the green stalk, from thence the leaves More aerie, last the bright consummate flower Spirits odorous breathes: flowers and their fruit Man's nourishment, by gradual scale sublimed To vital Spirits aspire, to animal, To intellectual, give both life and sense, Fancy and understanding, whence the Soul Reason receives, and reason is her being, Discursive, or Intuitive; discourse Is oftest yours, the latter most his ours, Differing but in degree, of kind the same. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu May 29 20:22:07 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:22:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030529192109.011c6ae8@mail.ilstu.edu> Hey. Without catachresis we would have no culture. All metaphor is, at some level, catachretic. We can't all be good girls and boys. At 04:09 PM 5/29/2003 -0500, Paul Lake wrote: > Lina Vitkauskas ("The luscious gravy / of the people has spoken.") > > > >Paul Lake > >--- >[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Assistant Professor of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 29 20:26:02 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:26:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor References: <3ED69E4F.EE49DB6E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00ce01c32642$0daf5fc0$12b1fea9@j1c1k6> > > { > Lina Vitkauskas ("The luscious gravy / of the people has spoken.") Am I the only one who finds something interesting about this metaphor? I'd have to see in the context of the poem it's in to evaluate it more exactly, but it's certainly fresher than most of the metaphors used by the most prestigious poets of today. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu May 29 20:29:36 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:29:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Discursiveness References: Message-ID: <00d401c32642$8d541220$12b1fea9@j1c1k6> > > > { In contrast, while "discursive" poems may certainly ramble > > and digress, they > > { maintain conventional syntax and more than mere threads of > > continuity in > > { terms of narrative, argument, scene, etc. Discursive poems are often > > { essayistic. > > > > What a delightfully ambiguous term--"discursive." According to my > > dictionary > > at hand (Webster's Collegiate, this morning), it means both (a) > > "moving from > > topic to topic without order" and (b) "proceeding coherently from topic to > > topic." (It also means "marked by analytical reasoning-"--same source.) > > > > Who says you can't have it both ways? > > Hal & David & all, > I believe the primary distinction with discursiveness is that it flows (lit. > "runs from") instead of leaps. It may flow from one logical thing to the > next or it may be a "stream of consciousness"; still, it flows > *sequentially*. (i.e., the sequence may be logical, chronological, > alphabetical, etc. -- thus even collage could be read as a kind of > discursiveness, if the eye proceeds from one object to the next in > contiguous order; alternatively, discourse could be collage if the eye reads > it some way other than left-to-right top-to-bottom.) > > For early writers, the duality was discursive/intuitive. For me, the relevant dichotomy would be unified/disconnected. Of course, the continuum would go from utterly unified through various degrees of unity including a vague unity of mood to utterly disconnected. --Bob G. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu May 29 20:40:56 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 19:40:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor In-Reply-To: <00ce01c32642$0daf5fc0$12b1fea9@j1c1k6> References: <3ED69E4F.EE49DB6E@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030529193927.0172bb20@mail.ilstu.edu> > >Am I the only one who finds something interesting about this metaphor? No Bobby I too be digging this meataphor. This gravy goes well with this meataphor > I'd >have to see in the context of the poem it's in to evaluate it more exactly, >but it's certainly fresher than most of the metaphors used by the most >prestigious poets of today. > >--Bob G. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu May 29 22:10:24 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 21:10:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] catachresis Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030529203621.03c15ff8@mail.ilstu.edu> catachresis An extreme, far-fetched metaphor; strained or deliberately paradoxical figure of speech; deliberate substitution of an inexact word in place of the correct one.. (Pronunciation "cat a KREE sis") [Gk. "misapplication"] "To take arms against a sea of troubles." (Shakespeare, Hamlet) "Red trains cough Jewish underwear for keeps! Expanding smells of silence. Gravy snot whistling like sea birds." (Amiri Baraka, "The Dutchman") "The moon was full. The moon was so bloated it was about to tip over. Imagine awakening to find the moon flat on its face on the bathroom floor, like the late Elvis Presley, poisoned by banana splits. It was a moon that could stir wild passions in a moo cow. A moon that could bring out the devil in a bunny rabbit. A moon that could turn lug nuts into moonstones, turn little Red Riding Hood into the big bad wolf." (Tom Robbins, Still Life with Woodpecker) http://www.nt.armstrong.edu/term2.htm From chris at chrislott.org Fri May 30 00:13:41 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 20:13:41 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor References: <3ED69E4F.EE49DB6E@earthlink.net> <00ce01c32642$0daf5fc0$12b1fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <003701c32661$dfd72d10$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Thursday, May 29, 2003 4:26 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: >>> { > Lina Vitkauskas ("The luscious gravy / of the people has >>> spoken.") > > Am I the only one who finds something interesting about this > metaphor? I'd have to see in the context of the poem it's in to > evaluate it more exactly, but it's certainly fresher than most of the > metaphors used by the most prestigious poets of today. One almost has to admire your consistent faith in-- and worship of-- that which you see as unique. In Bob Grumman's world, it would appear that unexpected must equal good. Those qualities alone seem to trump all others, including whether said item is truly apt, meaningful, or musical. Unfortunately, this snippet has rendered impotent all those other fresh lines we might have hoped for, such as "the stale twinky of the children" and "the glistening pate of the bourgeois bouillabaisse" ... c From JackTar at aol.com Fri May 30 01:59:07 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 01:59:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Discursiveness Message-ID: <104.2f6b63f5.2c084d2b@aol.com> In a message dated 5/29/2003 8:31:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > For me, the relevant dichotomy would be unified/disconnected. Of course, > the continuum would go from utterly unified through various degrees of unity > including a vague unity of mood to utterly disconnected. > > --Bob G. > To me - It feels like we are already disconnected, hence the discursiveness would go from the disconnected to unity at the pace you suggest. A La; an out of body experience where one views our other channel, which tells a different tale - like looking through a telescope/binoculars from the other than usual end. No matter the style - what good is it if the masses don't get it? If only poets understand the poem - what matters the direction? duncan - way behind - mcgehee -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 30 07:05:17 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 07:05:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor References: <3ED69E4F.EE49DB6E@earthlink.net> <00ce01c32642$0daf5fc0$12b1fea9@j1c1k6> <003701c32661$dfd72d10$6401a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <002201c3269b$5b415320$f0a7fea9@j1c1k6> > >>> { > Lina Vitkauskas ("The luscious gravy / of the people has > >>> spoken.") > > > > Am I the only one who finds something interesting about this > > metaphor? This is "worship?" > >I'd have to see in the context of the poem it's in to > > evaluate it more exactly, but it's certainly fresher than most of the > > metaphors used by the most prestigious poets of today. > > One almost has to admire your consistent faith in-- and worship of-- that > which you see as unique. Absolutely untrue, Chris, sorry. THIS particular metaphor has something about it I like. That it is fresh is only part of it. I also like its complexity. I DO admire anything that is significantly different whether it works in a poem or not--but only for being different, which is a viRtue for the creative. This actually is not significantly different--it's just a metaphor--which may or may not be too strained. >In Bob Grumman's world, it would appear that > unexpected must equal good. Those qualities alone seem to trump all others, > including whether said item is truly apt, meaningful, or musical. In Chris Lott's world, one would expect (from what he has just said) that something that does not seem truly apt, meaningful or musical to HIM is NOT those things. The metaphor involved is definitely meaningful and has some kind of aptness. As I said before, I'd have to see the poem as a whole to know better if it has quite enough aptness for me to work. Something about the ooze that both the voice of the people and gravy have seems right to me. "Luscious" seems right as a sarcasm directed at the sort of politicians who are gluttons for such gravy. "Gravy" also seems right as something superficial, secondary to the main dish, derivative. There's nothing unmusical about the metaphor. It even has assonance: lUHshUHs gravy UHv. And consonance--the two v-sounds one after the other. Its problem is grammatical only, it seems to me. > Unfortunately, this snippet has rendered impotent all those other fresh > lines we might have hoped for, such as "the stale twinky of the children" > and "the glistening pate of the bourgeois bouillabaisse" ... > > c The first might work, though not nearly so well as the gravy metaphor; I don't understand the second. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 30 08:17:15 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:17:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Discursiveness References: <104.2f6b63f5.2c084d2b@aol.com> Message-ID: <006301c326a5$68ee1a80$f0a7fea9@j1c1k6> For me, the relevant dichotomy would be unified/disconnected. Of course, the continuum would go from utterly unified through various degrees of unity including a vague unity of mood to utterly disconnected. --Bob G. To me - It feels like we are already disconnected, hence the discursiveness would go from the disconnected to unity at the pace you suggest. A La; an out of body experience where one views our other channel, which tells a different tale - like looking through a telescope/binoculars from the other than usual end. No matter the style - what good is it if the masses don't get it? If only poets understand the poem - what matters the direction? duncan - way behind - mcgehee A few Retaliatory Thoughts from an Elitist (1) If I and others like me did not write for other poets, who would? (2) What have the masses ever done for me that I should entertain them with my poetry? (3) Just about all great art is for everyone--as the careers of van Gogh and Cezanne demonstrate; who says it should be for everyone immediately? (4) It is better to give great pleasure to the few who are capable of experiencing it to the full than small pleasure to the many who will pop off to other pleasures shallowly experienced almost at once. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Fri May 30 09:05:38 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 03 09:05:38 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Politicians? Message-ID: <200305301312.h4UDCMFU194182@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> >>Hal "I think pigs should be allowed to >> run free--just like politicians." >> --Edna Buchanan Somebody else must have voted those disgraceful politicians into office - certainly not I! Richard From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Fri May 30 09:10:42 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 03 09:10:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Founding the West Chester Poetry Conference Message-ID: <200305301322.h4UDMCFU160684@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> >>For those who don't already know, both the West Chester Poetry Conference >>and the West Chester teaching poetry conference were founded by Dana Gioia >>with almost no institutional support from any quarter in his pre-Endowment >>days. . . . Two more reasons to be glad he's got the Endowment behind him >>now. >> >>Paul Lake I've always heard Dana describe himself as co-founder with Mike Peich of the WC Poetry Conference. And, allowing for universities' funny accounting, West Chester University must have provided something. BTW Paul, if by some chance say, G. Gudding, had been appointed Chairman of the NEA, would you think he were entitled to dispense as only he and his cronies saw fit? Richard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 30 10:29:24 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:29:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Founding the West Chester Poetry Conference References: <200305301322.h4UDMCFU160684@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <001901c326b7$de954120$d980fea9@j1c1k6> > >>For those who don't already know, both the > BTW Paul, if by some chance say, G. Gudding, had been appointed Chairman > of the NEA, would you think he were entitled to dispense as only > he and his cronies saw fit? > > Richard I'm not G. Gudding, but I myself would, as NEA headperson, try to fund things that would help ALL artists (as opposed to arts administrators and teachers, who get most of the money now). An example: a well-run state-of-the-art website where any American artist--poet, painter, composer, etc.--could post material and have it seen and/or heard. An index would be provided and feedback forms. I believe I could work up a program that would allow people to type in their arts interests and get sent, on the basis of what they say, to artists they might like. I would like one requirement to be that no one could post who had not fairly thoroughly critiqued five or more works already up at the site. Dancers, actors, performance artists, etc. should be provided studios where they could tape their work and put it up at the site. Perhaps for a low fee. Etc. --Bob G. From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Fri May 30 10:58:38 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:58:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "My Angie Dickinson" hits 50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1054306718.3ed7719e6b235@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Hi all, Poems 1-50 of my ongoing serial "My Angie Dickinson" are now up at: http://myangiedickinson.blogspot.com Go have a looksee! Here's a recent one: #49 Divorce is not Granted ?? by the Pope ?? Married to Henry VIII ?? A trip to Bermuda is over in weeks So the Wife can become ?? serious ?? A teenager "dates" ?? the daughter ?? Tries to "get through" eight songs The kids on Astro Orbiter Were Known as "affinity" groups ?? In the future a cutting-edge android In the form of a boy-sheath ?? The full-length matching sequined skirt The Puritan strain rides underneath -m. From JforJames at aol.com Fri May 30 10:59:40 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 10:59:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor Message-ID: <50.1d6ce6fd.2c08cbdc@aol.com> In a message dated 5/29/03 8:25:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > Hey. Without catachresis we would have no culture. All metaphor is, at some > level, catachretic. We can't all be good girls and boys. > > At 04:09 PM 5/29/2003 -0500, Paul Lake wrote: > > > Lina Vitkauskas ("The luscious gravy / of the people has spoken.") > > Though I think it'is a bad metaphor, I'd defend the poet for taking risk. I think it fails primarily by attributing speech to gravy. That "gravy of the people" can be slathered, laddled, etc., but shouldn't talk. "As a poet I may very possibly be more interested in the so-called illogical impingements of the connotations of words on the consciousness (and their combinations and interplay in metaphor on this basis) than I am interested in the preservation of their logically rigid significations at the cost of limiting my subject matter and perceptions involved in the poem" Hart Crane to Harriet Monroe (1926) He goes on to say "The paradox, of course, is that its apparent illogic operates so logically in conjunction with its context in the poem as to establish its claim on another logic, quite independent of the original definition of the word or phrase or image thus employed. It implies (this _inflection_ of language) a previous or prepared receptivity to its stimulus on the part of the reader. The reader's sensibility simply responds by identifying this inflection of experience with some event in his own history or perceptions-- or rejects it altogether." Which brings up back to "de gustibus..." Finnegan From cc at opus0.com Fri May 30 11:09:13 2003 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 08:09:13 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Berio In-Reply-To: <200305281601.h4SG19ST010098@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > From: "Halvard Johnson" > Luciano Berio, 77, Composer of Mind and Heart, Dies > By PAUL GRIFFITHS > > Luciano Berio, an Italian composer whose many compositions, ranging > from chamber music to large-scale orchestral works and from operas to > songs, combined innovative imagination and analytical depth with a > richly sensuous feeling for sound and form, died yesterday in Rome. He > was 77. Hal, meant to thank you for posting this. Someone should rewrite _Death in Venice_ for a 20C composer (the film version turned Aschenbach into a 19C composer, music was Adagio from Mahler's 5th S.) -- to shift the theme from desire vs intellect or art vs reason to the explication of a man who achieves tremendous mastery, but dies in obscurity. None of those who remember his name can hum a single bar of his music. Meanwhile, the Newman family (Alfred, Randy, Thomas), all of whom combined have the equivalent mastery contained in one of his fingernail clippings, make more money each time they fart than he did in his career. From mandolin at mac.com Fri May 30 12:14:31 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:14:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor Message-ID: <1586707.1054311271237.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 07:05AM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> { > Lina Vitkauskas ("The luscious gravy / of the people has >> >>> spoken.") >> > >--it's just a >metaphor--which may or may not be too strained. > A horny old seaman named Davy Tried hard to avoid lumpy gravy But strain as he would It was never as good As the sauce that he ate in the Navy [sorry--very sorry] From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri May 30 13:00:31 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:00:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] bad metaphor Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030530120016.01900b98@mail.ilstu.edu> At 10:59 AM 5/30/2003 -0400, JforJames at aol.com wrote: >I think it fails primarily by attributing speech to gravy. That "gravy >of the people" can be slathered, laddled, etc., but shouldn't talk. Incongruity is intrinsic to all metaphor. In any metaphor, there will be conceptual components that do not fit. Rather than labeling this "bad" or declaring its failure, why not consider it an instance of the inherent disorder, the disorderliness, of categorization. I like what Hart Crane does in that passage to Monroe: rather than labeling it "bad" -- as I think weak writers and weak readers all too often do when faced with the unfamiliar -- he terms it "another logic." -- Gabe From chris at chrislott.org Fri May 30 13:14:17 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:14:17 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor References: <3ED69E4F.EE49DB6E@earthlink.net> <00ce01c32642$0daf5fc0$12b1fea9@j1c1k6> <003701c32661$dfd72d10$6401a8c0@TRS80> <002201c3269b$5b415320$f0a7fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <006e01c326ce$ea70b800$5b15e589@TECH> On Friday, May 30, 2003 3:05 AM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: I think you protest too much Bob. I was just pointing out your continued worship at the altar of the new. I imagine you walking through the department store straining your neck at every indication of the new and unique and thus intrinsically interesting, if only for a short while. > The first might work, though not nearly so well as the gravy > metaphor; I don't understand the second. Ah, but I find the second more interesting (if such a thing is possible with two deliberately bad examples) because I like the alliteration and the idea of the shine off the top of a bowl of broth being akin to the shine of the top of a bald head. I doubt I'll be using either line anytime soon. In Chris Lott's world it is OK to take a contrary position-- it doesn't imply that it is the only position, and only the insecure would think it does. That I see a pattern in your posts is of no consequence to that argument. c From chris at chrislott.org Fri May 30 13:16:20 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 09:16:20 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Politicians? References: <200305301312.h4UDCMFU194182@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <007a01c326cf$341c46e0$5b15e589@TECH> On Friday, May 30, 2003 5:05 AM, DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com spake thusly: > Somebody else must have voted those disgraceful politicians > into office - certainly not I! Apparently the mass of folks who went to Woodstock cloaked in invisibility also voted for Bush. Even in this heavily Republican state it is hard to find someone that will admit it out loud. c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 30 13:15:55 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:15:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] bad metaphor References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030530120016.01900b98@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <005001c326cf$21aedea0$d980fea9@j1c1k6> > Rather than labeling this "bad" or declaring its failure, why not consider > it an instance of the inherent disorder, the disorderliness, of > categorization. Because you could do that with anything anyone writes, and some things ARE better than others. >I like what Hart Crane does in that passage to Monroe: > rather than labeling it "bad" -- as I think weak writers and weak readers > all too often do when faced with the unfamiliar -- he terms it "another > logic." -- Gabe > Right. The question is whethera legitimate other logic is there or not. If no one perceives it but the author, the metaphor is a failure. I half-perceive it in the case of the gravy metaphor. --Bob G. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri May 30 14:46:56 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:46:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching conference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chryss, I mistyped below. Meant to type West Coast teaching conference since I can't remember the official name. The West Chester conference got a large NEA grant last year, but I don't know about the other conference. Both conferences were started on a dream and a prayer. Paul on 5/29/03 5:52 PM, Chryss Yost at chryss at silcom.com wrote: > Do either of these conferences get support from the Endowment now? I think > they are both still predominantly privately funded, aren't they? > C. > > > > In the message on 5/29/03 2:11 PM, Paul Lake wrote: > >> For those who don't already know, both the West Chester Poetry Conference >> and the West Chester teaching poetry conference were founded by Dana Gioia >> with almost no institutional support from any quarter in his pre-Endowment >> days. . . . Two more reasons to be glad he's got the Endowment behind him >> now. >> >> Paul Lake >> >> --- >> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri May 30 14:53:55 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:53:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Founding the West Chester Poetry Conference In-Reply-To: <200305301322.h4UDMCFU160684@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: on 5/30/03 8:10 AM, DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com at DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com wrote: >>> For those who don't already know, both the West Chester Poetry Conference >>> and the West Chester teaching poetry conference were founded by Dana Gioia >>> with almost no institutional support from any quarter in his pre-Endowment >>> days. . . . Two more reasons to be glad he's got the Endowment behind him >>> now. >>> >>> Paul Lake > I've always heard Dana describe himself as co-founder with Mike > Peich of the WC Poetry Conference. And, allowing for universities' > funny accounting, West Chester University must have provided > something. Yeah, Mike Peich co-founded the West Chester conference. > > BTW Paul, if by some chance say, G. Gudding, had been appointed Chairman > of the NEA, would you think he were entitled to dispense as only > he and his cronies saw fit? A.) What makes you think that Dana will only dispense grants where he and his "cronies" see fit? He has pretty catholic tastes and a profound sense of fairness--and what is good for the overall literary culture. B.) Judging by what I've seen of the past panels and poetry grants, I'd say that past chairs have pretty much imposed their narrow tastes on the selection of past judges and grant winners--so what would be different if Dana were to be partisan but a regime change? > > Richard > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri May 30 15:04:42 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:04:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cullen Message-ID: Countee Cullen born this day 100 years ago. Incident Once riding in old Baltimore, Heart-filled, head-filled with glee, I saw a Baltimorean Keep looking straight at me. Now I was eight and very small, And he was no whit bigger, And so I smiled, but he poked out His tongue, and called me, "Nigger." I saw the whole of Baltimore From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri May 30 15:16:29 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:16:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Writer's Almanac Message-ID: It occurs to me that some may not know about The Writer's Almanac web site, from which I learned of the Countee Cullen centennial. This is the web version of Garrison Keillor's daily radio spot, in which he reads a poem and cites literary, historical and biographical tidbits. Keillor's anthology *Good Poems* was culled from the poems he has read on this program over the past few years, and many of the poems are also archived online. If you're interested you can also receive an email version of the broadcast daily, too. http://almanac.mpr.org/ Fans of recorded poetry might also like to know that there is a 4 CD *Good Poems* set, with readings by a number of poets in addition to Keillor: Hayden Carruth, Donald Hall, Joyce Sutphen, Linda Pastan, Billy Collins, Robert Bly, Jennifer Michael Hecht, Sharon Olds, Allen Ginsberg, et al. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From JforJames at aol.com Fri May 30 15:17:44 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:17:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] bad metaphor Message-ID: <6d.12240280.2c090858@aol.com> In a message dated 5/30/03 1:04:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > > Incongruity is intrinsic to all metaphor. In any metaphor, there will be > conceptual components that do not fit. > > Rather than labeling this "bad" or declaring its failure, why not consider > it an instance of the inherent disorder, the disorderliness, of > categorization. I like what Hart Crane does in that passage to Monroe: > rather than labeling it "bad" -- as I think weak writers and weak readers > all too often do when faced with the unfamiliar -- he terms it "another > logic." -- Gabe > Gabe, I'm not ready to completely surrender critical judgment in these matters. And I can't see a benefit in desensitizing our tastes as readers or allowing ourselves to be inured to the point that certain aspects of poetry no longer register as poor or horrid. A metaphor could be bad, likewise, when the elements relate too readily. So, I agree that incongruity of the elements makes for a good (bold/audacious) metaphor. But for me a matter of tensile strength: Can the link sustain the strain of a metaphor's divergent elements? My tolerance, in this case, is less than yours or Bob's. Of course, context (of the piece and of the body of an author's work) make a world of difference. Has the reader become so taken with (been so persuaded by) the poetry that nothing would surprise her/him unhappily? Perhaps we all have few poets whose work has so endeared itself to us, so well earned our respect, that even obvious missteps or oversteps or pratfalls in the writing still manage to delight us, because they seem inevitable given the risks that writer is wont to run. Finnegan From marcus at designerglass.com Fri May 30 15:28:41 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:28:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cullen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3ED778A9.14867.1AC1D05@localhost> Oddly enough, I'll be in Baltimore tomorrow and Sunday quoting a glass job. Marcus On 30 May 2003 at 14:04, David Graham wrote: > Countee Cullen born this day 100 years ago. > > > Incident > > Once riding in old Baltimore, > Heart-filled, head-filled with glee, > I saw a Baltimorean > Keep looking straight at me. > > Now I was eight and very small, > And he was no whit bigger, > And so I smiled, but he poked out > His tongue, and called me, "Nigger." > > I saw the whole of Baltimore > From May until December; > Of all the things that happened there > That's all that I remember. > > --Countee Cullen > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From MillB at aol.com Fri May 30 15:31:31 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 15:31:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Writer's Almanac Message-ID: <1ce.aca8e4e.2c090b93@aol.com> David: I think that's a great tip. When I was at a writers residency last winter, anonymously, I pasted a copy of the almanac to the fridge. What started as a lark, became a daily event. Everyone looked forward to reading it. Many wonderful dinner conversations ensued from that almanac! I fessed up in the end. . .but it was a little like being the tooth fairy. What made it especially nice was that the residency was a mix of artists and writers, so there was always MUCH to debate. Cheers, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri May 30 15:36:30 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:36:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: bad metaphor In-Reply-To: <6d.12240280.2c090858@aol.com> Message-ID: I agree with Finnegan--I would hope to be slow to label a metaphor bad, given my many blind spots and my vast ignorance; and I wouldn't necessarily make incongruity per se the criterion for judging a metaphor as bad, and yes, we must closely consider the context. But unless we are prepared to make such judgments I don't see much point in appreciating poetry as an art. I'm always struck especially by stinky lines written by otherwise strong poets. Stanley Kunitz, for example, has a truly horrid line in one poem: "The night nailed like an orange to my brow." It makes little sense in context, but clearly the poet is just in love with it: I read an interview once where he was asked about it, and his answer struck me as gibberish. He just loved the line, for whatever dotty personal reasons. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== >> > Gabe, I'm not ready to completely surrender critical judgment > in these matters. And I can't see a benefit in desensitizing > our tastes as readers or allowing ourselves to be inured to > the point that certain aspects of poetry no longer register > as poor or horrid. A metaphor could be bad, likewise, when the > elements relate too readily. So, I agree that incongruity of the > elements makes for a good (bold/audacious) metaphor. > But for me a matter of tensile strength: Can the link sustain > the strain of a metaphor's divergent elements? My tolerance, > in this case, is less than yours or Bob's. > Of course, context (of the piece and of the body of an author's work) > make a world of difference. Has the reader become so taken > with (been so persuaded by) the poetry that nothing would surprise > her/him unhappily? Perhaps we all have few poets whose work > has so endeared itself to us, so well earned our respect, that even > obvious missteps or oversteps or pratfalls in the writing still manage > to delight us, because they seem inevitable given the risks > that writer is wont to run. > Finnegan From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri May 30 15:53:58 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:53:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] bad metaphor In-Reply-To: <6d.12240280.2c090858@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030530143004.0177f1b8@mail.ilstu.edu> Finnegan and David, I think you've brought excellent points here. But my point isn't that *some* incongruity makes for excellent metaphor. My point was that incongruity is inherent to all metaphor: the mixing of categories is already messy; even our translations and cribs of Aristotle give us "similarity *among* difference." If that's true, then the difference between metaphor per se and catachresis is a matter of contesting what's normative ("de gustibus," as you say). In other words, its culture-specific, reader-specific -- and these things hinge on arbitrary choices (ie, acts of judgment). But to then take that a step further and say, as David just did, that judgment is necessary to "appreciate" poetry as an "art." That gets into all manner of aesthetic politics -- and is the heart of our constant "poetry wars." What *I* prefer to do with the above situation is this: rather than approaching the above with a model of judgment and "appreciation," I approach my reading and writing from the standpoint of Use and Usefulness. I prefer in other words a Deweyan approach to these matters, and Emersonian one ultimately. But it goes back even further than that for me -- harking alll the way back to Augustine, I suppose, who said, I think somewhere in _Civitas Dei_, that we can choose to live in two ways: (1) According to Enjoyment or Initial pleasure, or (2) According to Use and Usefulness. The latter for me abrogates all sorts of (to my mind) unnecessary and vain and tail-chasing ideas such as "bad poetry" or "bad metaphor." Context-specific: yes, I agree -- but for me it's context of Use. And, you know, for me, USE is much more of a stop-gap or break or normalizing force, much less Arbitrary, than "appreciation" -- the latter beign something that seems much more fickle and subject to whims of literary fashion. And it's perhaps that last reason more than any other that stops me from approaching literature --- the writing and reading of it -- from a paradigm of "appreciation." I get enjoyment, yes, but my sense of enjoyment doesn't arise from an act of judgment but from what how what i'm reading or writing helps me live, what use I can put it to, and what use can be made of it. -- gabe From chris at chrislott.org Fri May 30 16:11:58 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:11:58 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] bad metaphor References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030530143004.0177f1b8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <011e01c326e7$ba34a8e0$5b15e589@TECH> I still don't see how the shift from good/bad to useful/useless accomplishes anything in terms of discussion within a group. Such a valuative scale is subject to all the same problems of the former unless both are qualified by the understanding that what is spoken is spoken only "personally." Neither useful nor good are univocal concepts (thank god for variety). The whole thing seems like nothing more than a rhetorical shift to accommodate the same relativistic position. To determine "how what i'm reading or writing helps me live, what use I can put it to, and what use can be made of it" (along with the implied determination that sometimes one comes across things that can't be used) *is* a judgment. Does it really change things to say "I have no use" for that metaphor instead of saying that it is "bad" or "that doesn't work"? Each statement has to be taken for what it is: a personal assessment that something has failed for the speaker. Nor can I see how Gabe determining that X is not useful to him is any less (or more) vain or tail-chasing than saying that X is no good or X doesn't work. Unless the uncharitable assumption is made about the latter (which is, I suspect, the *real* problem at hand) cases that he must be choosing to speak for everyone rather than himself. But we are all adults here and should know better than to assume such things. c From JforJames at aol.com Fri May 30 16:13:25 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:13:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Epstein: The Return of Karl Shapiro? Message-ID: <1cb.ac68668.2c091565@aol.com> http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/636zzqoi.asp The Return of Karl Shapiro? The Library of America freshens old laurels. by Joseph Epstein 05/12/2003, Volume 008, Issue 34 Selected Poems The American Poets Project, vol. 3 by Karl Shapiro, edited by John Updike Library of America, 197 pp., $20 I RECENTLY found myself describing someone as a successful poet of no significance whatsoever. Karl Shapiro, a selection of whose poems has just been brought out by Library of America, was just the reverse: an unsuccessful poet of considerable significance. The reasons he was unsuccessful tell a good deal about the state and condition of poetry in our time. From mandolin at mac.com Fri May 30 16:16:38 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:16:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] bad metaphor Message-ID: <6630163.1054325798906.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Friday, May 30, 2003, at 03:53PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: >Context-specific: yes, I agree -- but for me it's context of Use. And, you >know, for me, USE is much more of a stop-gap or break or normalizing force, >much less Arbitrary, than "appreciation" -- the latter beign something that >seems much more fickle and subject to whims of literary fashion. And it's >perhaps that last reason more than any other that stops me from approaching >literature --- the writing and reading of it -- from a paradigm of >"appreciation." I get enjoyment, yes, but my sense of enjoyment doesn't >arise from an act of judgment but from what how what i'm reading or writing >helps me live, what use I can put it to, and what use can be made of it. -- gabe > I don't see how "Use" is any less less fickle and arbitrary a category than "Appreciation," or even why each cannot sometimes contain the other. What is useful to me now may not be next week; what is dangerous to me may be useful to you. Besides, we can be fooled (by cocaine, for instance, or superabundant sugar, or a charismatic villain), but to some extent enjoyment is a reliable guide to usefulness. Michael From chris at chrislott.org Fri May 30 16:29:20 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 12:29:20 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] bad metaphor References: <6630163.1054325798906.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <013801c326ea$2c58b680$5b15e589@TECH> > I don't see how "Use" is any less less fickle and arbitrary a > category than "Appreciation," or even why each cannot sometimes > contain the other. I agree. Although part of where I think the approach of utility actually has merit is in simply avoiding some of the unfortunate assumptions made by others within a group. For instance, while it might make sense to say a poem is bad, it doesn't usually make sense to say a hammer is bad. In that sense, Gabe has a claim that his way is not (or not so much) a valuation and it makes the personal nature of the statement more clear. But just to remove a tire from your car with a hammer. In general, a hammer makes a really bad tire iron. It is, from the perspective of the mechanic, useless. It should be assumed, among (reasonable) adults on a list like this, that we are making personal assessments when we stake claims. I don't think we should need to specify this each time, tediously, any more than we need to use s/he in every sentence that could apply to both sexes. It should be implicit. If anything, we should have to make a special allowance if we really are trying to speak universally. The line from the poem, like a hammer, can be many things at once, right? The hammer is a bad tire iron, but it works pretty well to smash thumbs. The line from the poem was pretty bad as a piece of poetry, but it might surface again to spark an idea and become useful. It's all radically arbitrary... or at least it remains so for as long as one is willing to maintain their pretense (and I do believe it is always a pretense for everyone, an illusion that fades with enough pressure) of relativistic composure. c c From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri May 30 16:41:47 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:41:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: theory of Poethia References: <089901c3256b$673d39e0$07e63644@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3ED7C20A.BD3C67F2@earthlink.net> Tom: Do you have a direct url for this? I wrote to Poethia to subscribe but nothing's happened. - Jim tom bell wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tom bell" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 2:39 PM > Subject: theory of Poethia > > > A little blowing of my own horn but relevent to recent discussions > _Poethia_ > > single author isue #15 is out (poethia at cox.net). This is meditations in > > action on Sontag's _On Representation..._ while meditating on the recent > TV > > war. Photography vs. reality and reality of poetry embodied per > > art/TV/physicality, etc. > > > > tom bell > > not yet a crazy old man > > hard but not yet hardening of the > > art > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Fri May 30 16:49:42 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:49:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] bad metaphor In-Reply-To: <6630163.1054325798906.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <3ED78BA6.18488.1F64ED9@localhost> Gabe Gudding: > >Context-specific: yes, I agree -- but for me it's context of Use. And, you > >know, for me, USE is much more of a stop-gap or break or normalizing force, > >much less Arbitrary, than "appreciation" -- the latter beign something that > >seems much more fickle and subject to whims of literary fashion. And it's > >perhaps that last reason more than any other that stops me from approaching > >literature --- the writing and reading of it -- from a paradigm of > >"appreciation." I get enjoyment, yes, but my sense of enjoyment doesn't > >arise from an act of judgment but from what how what i'm reading or writing > >helps me live, what use I can put it to, and what use can be made of it. -- gabe This is mere rhetorical substitution of one set of terms for another, because it's still a judgment of the same kind, whether one finds it "good", finds it "helps me live", or finds it "useful": a judgment the individual makes within the cultural context in which he or she makes the judgment. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From sellwein at hotmail.com Fri May 30 16:52:48 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:52:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cullen Message-ID: I live in Baltimore - I'm not sure anything is different, except we know the irony of being called 'Charm City'. - Deborah Russell ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oddly enough, I'll be in Baltimore tomorrow and Sunday quoting a glass job. Marcus On 30 May 2003 at 14:04, David Graham wrote: > Countee Cullen born this day 100 years ago. > > > Incident > > Once riding in old Baltimore, > Heart-filled, head-filled with glee, > I saw a Baltimorean > Keep looking straight at me. > > Now I was eight and very small, > And he was no whit bigger, > And so I smiled, but he poked out > His tongue, and called me, "Nigger." > > I saw the whole of Baltimore > From May until December; > Of all the things that happened there > That's all that I remember. > > --Countee Cullen > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From chris at chrislott.org Fri May 30 17:27:41 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 13:27:41 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] bad metaphor References: <3ED78BA6.18488.1F64ED9@localhost> Message-ID: <017701c326f2$50d6ee70$5b15e589@TECH> On Friday, May 30, 2003 12:49 PM, Marcus Bales spake thusly: > This is mere rhetorical substitution of one set of terms for another, > because it's still a judgment of the same kind, whether one finds it > "good", finds it "helps me live", or finds it "useful": a judgment > the individual makes within the cultural context in which he or she > makes the judgment. On the other hand, most of us wouldn't be on this list if we didn't believe in the power of words. Rhetoric can be important, whether as a guide or indicator. Intellectually I agree with you, and have said so, but emotionally I think part of me agrees with Gabe's position because, in our day-to-day lives as writers, poets, readers, and community participants, how we approach things, even to the same end, takes on a heightened approach. Finding usefulness is more in keeping with trying to "live right and write right" than declaring judgment, even if they are functionally similar. In some way, this kind of approach ties into the Zen concept of presence. There are many different ways to eat a bowl of rice though all result in an empty bowl. c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 30 19:37:52 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 19:37:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor References: <3ED69E4F.EE49DB6E@earthlink.net> <00ce01c32642$0daf5fc0$12b1fea9@j1c1k6> <003701c32661$dfd72d10$6401a8c0@TRS80> <002201c3269b$5b415320$f0a7fea9@j1c1k6> <006e01c326ce$ea70b800$5b15e589@TECH> Message-ID: <003501c32704$7de7c6c0$dcc6fea9@j1c1k6> > On Friday, May 30, 2003 3:05 AM, Bob Grumman > spake thusly: > > I think you protest too much Bob. I was just pointing out your continued > worship at the altar of the new. Right. And I was correcting you, not out of fear you might be right but because my saying that I found a fresh metaphor somewhat interesting does not qualify as "worship," and I'm a stickler for the proper use of English (which does not mean I'm that correct at using it myself, although I try to be). I also pointed out that there is a difference for me between that which is fresh and that which is significantly new; a new verbal metaphor, in my view, is only fresh, not truly new (elxe any poem that is not an exact copy of another poem is "new"). So my interest in the gravy metaphor is not genuinely an indication of a liking for the new. >I imagine you walking through the > department store straining your neck at every indication of the new and > unique and thus intrinsically interesting, if only for a short while. Well, Chris, I do NOT imagine you walking through a department store and abruptly turning around upon coming to a counter with anything slightly new on it. > > The first might work, though not nearly so well as the gravy > > metaphor; I don't understand the second. > > Ah, but I find the second more interesting (if such a thing is possible with > two deliberately bad examples) because I like the alliteration and the idea > of the shine off the top of a bowl of broth being akin to the shine of the > top of a bald head. I doubt I'll be using either line anytime soon. > > In Chris Lott's world it is OK to take a contrary position-- it doesn't > imply that it is the only position, and only the insecure would think it > does. That I see a pattern in your posts is of no consequence to that > argument. What I object to is your too easily generalizing on the basis of one or two bits of data. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 30 19:55:28 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 19:55:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: bad metaphor References: Message-ID: <007301c32706$f2df18a0$dcc6fea9@j1c1k6> > I'm always struck especially by stinky lines written by otherwise strong > poets. Stanley Kunitz, for example, has a truly horrid line in one poem: > > "The night nailed like an orange to my brow." There's no something-about-it that keeps me from rejecting this one the way I think there is with the gravy metaphor. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri May 30 20:15:42 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 20:15:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] bad metaphor References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030530143004.0177f1b8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <00a301c32709$c661e840$dcc6fea9@j1c1k6> >But it goes back even further than that for me -- harking > alll the way back to Augustine, I suppose, who said, I think somewhere in > _Civitas Dei_, that we can choose to live in two ways: (1) According to > Enjoyment or Initial pleasure, Why "initial" only? I read poetry for pleasure, only, and rate it on how much pleasure it gives me, which is rarely merely the pleasure I get initially from it. >or (2) According to Use and Usefulness. But how is a thing "useful" unless it brings us in some way to pleasure, or away from pain? In which case, why not try directly for pleasure? --Bob G. From trbell at comcast.net Fri May 30 22:29:41 2003 From: trbell at comcast.net (tom bell) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:29:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: theory of Poethia References: <089901c3256b$673d39e0$07e63644@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> <3ED7C20A.BD3C67F2@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001501c3271c$7e67b840$07e63644@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> Try this? http://www.burningpress.org/va/poethiaindex.html Luigi-Bob may just be busy? tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fw: theory of Poethia > Tom: Do you have a direct url for this? I wrote to Poethia to > subscribe but nothing's happened. > > - Jim > > tom bell wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "tom bell" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 2:39 PM > > Subject: theory of Poethia > > > > > A little blowing of my own horn but relevent to recent discussions > > _Poethia_ > > > single author isue #15 is out (poethia at cox.net). This is meditations in > > > action on Sontag's _On Representation..._ while meditating on the recent > > TV > > > war. Photography vs. reality and reality of poetry embodied per > > > art/TV/physicality, etc. > > > > > > tom bell > > > not yet a crazy old man > > > hard but not yet hardening of the > > > art > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Fri May 30 20:22:26 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:22:26 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: bad metaphor References: <007301c32706$f2df18a0$dcc6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <01d701c3270a$ba179610$5b15e589@TECH> On Friday, May 30, 2003 3:55 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: >> I'm always struck especially by stinky lines written by otherwise >> strong poets. Stanley Kunitz, for example, has a truly horrid line >> in one poem: >> >> "The night nailed like an orange to my brow." > > There's no something-about-it that keeps me from rejecting this one > the way I think there is with the gravy metaphor. As my son would say, I guess you just don't find the oranges thing very appeeling. c From chris at chrislott.org Fri May 30 20:35:12 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 16:35:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor References: <3ED69E4F.EE49DB6E@earthlink.net> <00ce01c32642$0daf5fc0$12b1fea9@j1c1k6> <003701c32661$dfd72d10$6401a8c0@TRS80> <002201c3269b$5b415320$f0a7fea9@j1c1k6> <006e01c326ce$ea70b800$5b15e589@TECH> <003501c32704$7de7c6c0$dcc6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <020101c3270c$8060e370$5b15e589@TECH> On Friday, May 30, 2003 3:37 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > Well, Chris, I do NOT imagine you walking through a department store > and abruptly turning around upon coming to a counter with anything > slightly new on it. No, it's of no particular interest either way because of its newness, that's all, just as the metaphor in question is of no interest just because it attempts to shoehorn two apparently disparate concepts together in a way that I have not seen anyone else try. Similarly, as a fan of straight-ahead and bop jazz, I fall on the conservative end of the spectrum of appreciation, while people like my wife are into the avant-garde. She values doing something "different" much more highly than I do. My value system is composed of different building blocks. Sometimes we agree on an artist that is far off to one side or another, but more often we are just looking for different things in a way that Gabe Gudding would probably approve of. > What I object to is your too easily generalizing on the basis of one > or two bits of data. I'd say I'm basing my response on more than one or two bits of data: there is a distinct pattern to your responses whether we are talking about Robert Hayden, the Vitkauskas' metaphor, or taxonomy. In my opinion they demonstrate that in your system of merit, doing something different or new is disproportionately weighted as being "good" while utilizing more conventional forms is downgraded as being the "same old thing." Do I need to attach a piece of high school english class boilerplate indicating that these are my opinions, that the comparison is being made relative to my own personal system of appreciation, that I recognize that other people may feel differently, and I won't pound the erasers together and create clouds that disconcert the asthmatics? c From dicka at optonline.net Fri May 30 21:09:58 2003 From: dicka at optonline.net (Richard Attanasio) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:09:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1530 - 14 msgs In-Reply-To: <200305301955.h4UJt3ST012232@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <98FE2D06-9304-11D7-99DE-000393DE187A@optonline.net> This is very funny: like the lawyer's defense. "My client didn't do it, but even if he did, everybody else does it! (The third stop is, "besides, the bastard deserved it.") >>A.) What makes you think that Dana will only dispense grants where he and >>his "cronies" see fit? He has pretty catholic tastes and a profound sense of >>fairness--and what is good for the overall literary culture. >>B.) Judging by what I've seen of the past panels and poetry grants, I'd say >>that past chairs have pretty much imposed their narrow tastes on the >>selection of past judges and grant winners--so what would be different if >>Dana were to be partisan but a regime change? From JforJames at aol.com Fri May 30 21:11:19 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:11:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: bad metaphor Message-ID: <12e.2b33d756.2c095b37@aol.com> In a message dated 5/30/03 7:57:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > Stanley Kunitz, for example, has a truly horrid line in one poem: > > > > "The night nailed like an orange to my brow." > There's a logical explanation for everything: As a boy, Kunitz was invited to a backyard birthday party. There were games aplenty. Several kids were involved in trying to deconstruct a pi?ata...they flailed about madly, not realizing the birthday-boy's father had affixed the object of their sweet-induced violence to a tree limb a full three feet above their tippy-toe reach. Meanwhile, Stanley was taking his turn bobbing for apples. Only thing was, the birthday boy's mother had forgotten to pick up apples at the grocery, so she had substituted oranges, a crate having been brought to the family as a gift by elderly neighbors who had recently returned from a trip to South Florida where they'd selected a site for their retirement home. As Stanley emerged, drenched to waist, from being face-down almost a whole minute in a washttub, the kind you can only find at tag sales these days, he held an orange firmly within his mouth. He gleefully pulled it out of his teeth and shouted , "Got one!" holding it aloft. Just then, Gus, one of the more brutal of blindfolded pi?ata boys, frustrated by now with hacking in vain a half-hour at thin air, wheeled about and strruck the orange square, hammering it like a nail, in one stroke, upon young Stanley's forehead, and dusk gave way to night, the party over, so to speak, & hence the above-captioned line. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri May 30 21:33:40 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 18:33:40 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: theory of Poethia References: <089901c3256b$673d39e0$07e63644@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> <3ED7C20A.BD3C67F2@earthlink.net> <001501c3271c$7e67b840$07e63644@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3ED80674.5A5FD3@earthlink.net> tom bell wrote: > > Try this? http://www.burningpress.org/va/poethiaindex.html It doesn't include yours. > > Luigi-Bob may just be busy? Too busy for potential readers? Any chance you can send me your contribution backchannel? - Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Cervantes" > To: > Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 3:41 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fw: theory of Poethia > > > Tom: Do you have a direct url for this? I wrote to Poethia to > > subscribe but nothing's happened. > > > > - Jim > > > > tom bell wrote: > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "tom bell" > > > To: > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 2:39 PM > > > Subject: theory of Poethia > > > > > > > A little blowing of my own horn but relevent to recent discussions > > > _Poethia_ > > > > single author isue #15 is out (poethia at cox.net). This is meditations > in > > > > action on Sontag's _On Representation..._ while meditating on the > recent > > > TV > > > > war. Photography vs. reality and reality of poetry embodied per > > > > art/TV/physicality, etc. > > > > > > > > tom bell > > > > not yet a crazy old man > > > > hard but not yet hardening of the > > > > art > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JackTar at aol.com Sat May 31 04:11:40 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 04:11:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Discursiveness Message-ID: <1cd.ab3e9ad.2c09bdbc@aol.com> In a message dated 5/30/2003 8:19:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > >> For me, the relevant dichotomy would be unified/disconnected. Of >> course, >> the continuum would go from utterly unified through various degrees of >> unity >> including a vague unity of mood to utterly disconnected. >> >> --Bob G. >> > > > To me - It feels like we are already disconnected, hence the discursiveness > would go from the disconnected to unity at the pace you suggest. A La; an out > of body experience where one views our other channel, which tells a > different tale - like looking through a telescope/binoculars from the other than > usual end. > > No matter the style - what good is it if the masses don't get it? If only > poets understand the poem - what matters the direction? > > duncan - way behind - mcgehee > > A few Retaliatory Thoughts from an Elitist > > (1) If I and others like me did not write for other poets, who would? > I have no problem with this, but as an addendum, I think this would relegate poetry to fewer and fewer ears/eyes and eventually obscurity. As comedy has evolved from making light of official policies; with the intent to bring to light aberrant policies most would find unacceptable, to trash talk about the latest success story who got their 15 minutes of fame. This suggests only that the evolvement of poetry has followed; historically, the evolvement of comedy. This is my correlation and does not represent this stations beliefs. > > (2) What have the masses ever done for me that I should entertain them with > my poetry? > What has a woman done for you to entertain her with your poetry? In for a penny, in for a pound. > > (3) Just about all great art is for everyone--as the careers of van Gogh and > Cezanne demonstrate; who says it should be for everyone immediately? > As long as you write for other poets - this based only on the narrow confines of #1 - immediacy appears to be out of the question. Eventually, your poetry will be absorbed by others, but will it be appreciated, circulated or even taught in school? While I don't suggest poetry should be geared toward demographics with market share in mind, I feel it could be catered to the masses if one understands their words/vibe. Is poetry good only if it sells? Of courrse not, unless you need to make a living. If this is the case, well - to bad for the masses - another Harlequin Romance. Poetry has more rules than Mikimoto has pearls. Poetry suffers from this. > > (4) It is better to give great pleasure to the few who are capable of > experiencing it to the full than small pleasure to the many who will pop off to > other pleasures shallowly experienced almost at once. > This appears to shift from elitism to sophism. Am I correct or do I miss something? duncan Ode on Satan's Power At a local bistro's Christmas sing-along, the new ???????????? age pianist leads us in a pan-cultural brew of seasonal songs, the Ramadan chant being my ???????????? personal favorite, though the Kwanza lullaby and Hanukkah round are very interesting. Let's ???????????? face it, most of us are there for the carols we set to memory in childhood though some lyrics have been ???????????? changed, so when we sing "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen," we're transformed into a roomful of slightly tipsy ???????????? middle-class gentlepeople who are longing to be saved from hopelessness instead of Satan's power when ???????????? we were gone astray, but I, for one, sing out Satan's power as do most of the gentlepeople, women and men, something I find myself pondering a few ???????????? days later, while my profoundly worried nephew, Henry, and I embark on our annual blitzkrieg ???????????? of baking, punctuated by Henry's high-speed philosophical questioning, such as, Where do we ???????????? go when we die? Pressing my collection of cookie cutters-trees, snowflakes, Santas-into fragrant ginger ???????????? dough, I want to say, Who cares? Carpe diem, buster, though, of course, I'm way too scarred by pop psychology ???????????? to utter half the nutty things that pop up like weeds in the 18th century garden of my brain. Eight- ???????????? year-olds need their questions answered, I suppose, but not by me. I say, "Let's watch some TV," an instrument of Satan if ever there was one. Bullitt's on-Steve ???????????? McQueen in his prime. I love this movie-equal waves of sorrow and carnage washed up on a hokey late- ???????????? sixties beach of masculine cool. McQueen is Bullitt, and Jacqueline Bisset's his girl. Henry and I start ???????????? watching during the scene where she is driving Bullitt around because, if I remember correctly, he's ???????????? totaled not just one but several cars, in at least as many now-famous chases. Jackie drops Bullitt ???????????? at a hotel, where he finds a girl, newly dead, throat circled with purple fingerprints like grape jam stains. "What ???????????? happened to her?" Henry asks, frowning. I think, Oh, shit, this is not an officially approved nephew-aunt Christmas activity. If I don't make a big deal ???????????? of it, maybe he won't tell his mother. "Someone strangled her," I say. "What's strangled?" he asks, and I see my sister ???????????? has chosen not to threaten her child as our own dear mother routinely threatened us. Driven crazy she ???????????? browbeat us with strangulation, being slapped silly, public humiliation, murder, and eternal ???????????? damnation. Perhaps because Henry's her only child, my sister can afford to be gentler with her son ???????????? or maybe it's because two months before he was born she almost lost him, ending up in the hospital, ???????????? hooked to machines, ordered to bed for the final wrenching weeks. Maybe that's why the story of the Christ child speaks to us. All parents wonder how the world will treat ???????????? their tender babe. Like Lorca, will he become a great poet, then end up in a mass grave? Only German ???????????? philosophers think more about death than Henry Gwynn. "Why did he strangle her?" he asks, face formidable ???????????? as Hegel's. Satan's power, I want to say, but mumble "It's just a movie, not real." Steve McQueen is dodging ???????????? a plane, and I remember reading he did his own stunts, which I tell Henry, but he's still in that hotel ???????????? room. "If she was alive, how'd she get her eyes to roll back into her head?" I'm thinking of pornography, ???????????? snuff movies, all the things I never want him to see or even know about in this tawdry world. "Honey, it's a major motion picture. Even in a small part ???????????? an actress has to be great." He nods and takes a bite off Santa's head. "She was a pretty good actress." You ???????????? bet your booty, and I realize out of the blue Santa is an anagram for Satan. No way am ???????????? I going to explain anagrams or Herr Satan, though how wonderful to have such a nemesis- ???????????? a fallen seraph one of heaven's bright, bright stars- in a battle with Jehovah for our souls, rather ???????????? than the calendar's increasing speed like a roller coaster run amok through a fun park of lost dreams, lost ???????????? landscapes, and children, growing up faster than we thought possible in the last terrible days before their birth. Barbara Hamby -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat May 31 06:00:19 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 06:00:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor References: <3ED69E4F.EE49DB6E@earthlink.net> <00ce01c32642$0daf5fc0$12b1fea9@j1c1k6> <003701c32661$dfd72d10$6401a8c0@TRS80> <002201c3269b$5b415320$f0a7fea9@j1c1k6> <006e01c326ce$ea70b800$5b15e589@TECH> <003501c32704$7de7c6c0$dcc6fea9@j1c1k6> <020101c3270c$8060e370$5b15e589@TECH> Message-ID: <003701c3275b$71c8d440$a178fea9@j1c1k6> > > Well, Chris, I do NOT imagine you walking through a department store > > and abruptly turning around upon coming to a counter with anything > > slightly new on it. > > No, it's of no particular interest either way because of its newness, that's > all, just as the metaphor in question is of no interest just because it > attempts to shoehorn two apparently disparate concepts together in a way > that I have not seen anyone else try. But my point was that just because you seem sometimes to quickly reject that which is different/new, I don't assume you can't take the different/new--as you assume because I seem sometimes more appreciative of the different/new than most people, I am fixated on it. > Similarly, as a fan of straight-ahead and bop jazz, I fall on the > conservative end of the spectrum of appreciation, while people like my wife > are into the avant-garde. She values doing something "different" much more > highly than I do. My value system is composed of different building blocks. > Sometimes we agree on an artist that is far off to one side or another, but > more often we are just looking for different things in a way that Gabe > Gudding would probably approve of. > > > What I object to is your too easily generalizing on the basis of one > > or two bits of data. > > I'd say I'm basing my response on more than one or two bits of data: there > is a distinct pattern to your responses whether we are talking about Robert > Hayden, the Vitkauskas' metaphor, or taxonomy. In my opinion they > demonstrate that in your system of merit, doing something different or new > is disproportionately weighted as being "good" while utilizing more > conventional forms is downgraded as being the "same old thing." It's more complex than that, though the above is a fair appraisal--and different from saying I "worship" the new. One complication is the context of my remarks: i.e., New Poetry, where many of the most vocal participants lean toward received forms and techniques, causing me often to feel a need to defend the new. Among burstnorm poets, I tend to do the opposite. > Do I need to attach a piece of high school english class boilerplate > indicating that these are my opinions, that the comparison is being made > relative to my own personal system of appreciation, that I recognize that > other people may feel differently, and I won't pound the erasers together > and create clouds that disconcert the asthmatics? > > c No. I understand that. I still get to disagree with your opinion if I want to, though, right? --Bob G. From ggatza at daemen.edu Thu May 29 18:37:58 2003 From: ggatza at daemen.edu (Geoffrey Gatza) Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 17:37:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] SPECIAL FEATURE on B l a z e V O X : Forrest Gander Message-ID: <000d01c32632$f4e69bc0$605e3318@LINKAGE> SPECIAL FEATURE on B l a z e V O X Forrest Gander Audio Poems | (MP3 Format) http://www.blazevox.org/fg.htm Ligatures [ MP3 ]? Present Tense [ MP3 ]? Someone Must Be Called Twilght [ MP3 ] (from: Immanent Visitor: Selected Poems of Jaime Saenz) / /- -+- -+- -0 -0 -0)) ))| |~+~| |(( ((0- 0- 0- -+- -+- -\ \ THE OCCURRENCES - George Oppen ? The simplest Words say the grass blade Hides the blaze Of a sun To throw a shadow In which the bugs crawl At the roots of the grass; ? Father, father of fatherhood Who haunts me, shivering Man most naked Of us all, O father ? ??????????? watch At the roots Of the grass the creating Now????? that tremendous plunge This poem was sent in by keri edwards - be sure to see her poem selections at http://www.blazevox.org/edwards.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat May 31 11:50:45 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 10:50:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman Message-ID: And surely we ought to lift a glass in toast to Walt Whitman on his 184th birthday? I Heard You Solemn-Sweet Pipes Of The Organ I heard you solemn-sweet pipes of the organ as last Sunday morn I passed the church, Winds of autumn, as I walk'd the woods at dusk I heard your long-stretch'd sighs up above so mournful, I heard the perfect Italian tenor singing at the opera, I heard the soprano in the midst of the quartet singing; Heart of my love! you too I heard murmuring low through one of the wrists around my head, Heard the pulse of you when all was still ringing little bells last night under my ear. --Walt Whitman ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From chris at chrislott.org Sat May 31 13:44:37 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 09:44:37 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad metaphor References: <3ED69E4F.EE49DB6E@earthlink.net> <00ce01c32642$0daf5fc0$12b1fea9@j1c1k6> <003701c32661$dfd72d10$6401a8c0@TRS80> <002201c3269b$5b415320$f0a7fea9@j1c1k6> <006e01c326ce$ea70b800$5b15e589@TECH> <003501c32704$7de7c6c0$dcc6fea9@j1c1k6> <020101c3270c$8060e370$5b15e589@TECH> <003701c3275b$71c8d440$a178fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <002201c3279c$51bdcac0$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Saturday, May 31, 2003 2:00 AM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > No. I understand that. I still get to disagree with your opinion if > I want to, though, right? It's come to be an expected pleasure. I mean that seriously, since I do believe that out of conflicting views things are learned. c From JforJames at aol.com Sat May 31 14:08:40 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 14:08:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Monica Youn Message-ID: <64.308d7904.2c0a49a8@aol.com> D?COR My covetous eye casts over you, taking you apart. I'd like a trophy of you for every room of the house. The bend of your cocked wrist in the join of a rafter to the wall; an eyebrow floated in a cut-glass bowl; and instead of an antimacassar draping my overstuffed chair, a crochet netting of your veins. Something authoritative, asymmetrical, perhaps a bit outr?. Featuring that spiral- shaped mystery of gravitation, making the room attend it, composed, aware of distances. What better in my front hall with its fan light, its tall mirrors, than the immaculate roundness of your plump heel and toes -- substantial, rococo, a handle for my front door: warm to the touch, it turns easily, opens. . . . You can go now Monica Youn --------------------------------- copyright (c) 2003 Monica Youn. From "Barter," published by Graywolf Press ( http://www.graywolfpress.org/ ) From adead_poet at hotmail.com Sat May 31 23:00:44 2003 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Sat, 31 May 2003 22:00:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ai's Guadalajara Hospital Message-ID: I tried to find the book that had Ai's poem ?Guadalajara Hospital? in it, and I can't seem to find it. can anyone post the poem for me? thanks, jason _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus