From JackTar  Tue Jul  1 02:46:50 2003
From: JackTar (JackTar at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 02:46:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] for the Liberators
Message-ID: <12e.2d44eaf0.2c32885a@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/28/2003 9:09:59 AM Central Standard Time, 
gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes:

> This for the GOP poets of New-Poetry from Texas and Rhode Island and 
> anywhere else yall come from who *still* insist, following the 19th Century 
> doctrine of Liberal Intervention insisted upon by a senile JS Mill, that 
> US-UK forces have "liberated" the Iraqi people (who clearly don't want to 
> be liberated or bombed into an oil colony masquerading as a democracy) 

photographs turn yellow,
and times they come and go

terrry allen
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From jvcervantes  Tue Jul  1 18:29:49 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:29:49 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
Message-ID: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net>

Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia

http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm

============

Interesting, and fodder for several threads.

- Jim



From bobgrumman  Tue Jul  1 20:33:39 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:33:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <006b01c34031$95ba5e20$144efea9@j1c1k6>


> Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia
>
> http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm
>
> ============
>
> Interesting, and fodder for several threads.
>
> - Jim

It seems to me just a re-write of his Atlantic piece--but I skimmed it, so
may have missed something.  Perhaps one difference is that he's trying
harder now to foster an alliance between the neo-formalists and the spoken
worders, rap artists, etc. against "literary" or "university-centered"
poetry.  He did (wow!) mention visual poetry (with little hint he has much
idea what it is)--but said nothing that I noticed about cyber-poetry, by
whatever name.  My impression is that he's even further behind the times
than he was when he wrote the Atlantic piece.

--Bob G.




From jnewberry1974  Wed Jul  2 07:43:14 2003
From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 04:43:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
In-Reply-To: <006b01c34031$95ba5e20$144efea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <20030702114314.6211.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com>

Bob,
 
Perhaps you read a different piece.  Claiming that "Disappearing Ink" is a retread of "Can Poetry Matter" suggests that you not only didn't read "Disppearing Ink" very closely, but also suggests that you're not thinking; it suggests that you're being dismissive.
 
You offer nothing to back up your claims that Gioia is, by your universal standards, "behind the times."  You offer nothing to back up your claims.
 
His mentioning "university-centered poetry" doesn't mean that the essay is about "university-centered poetry."  Go back and reread.  If you skimmed it, you skimmed only a few paragraphs, it seems.
 
The fact that you disagree with Dana Gioia doesn't dismiss everything that he writes.  
 
I've always enjoyed your posts to this list, and I find most of what you say fascinating--its new and outside the status quo.  But this dismissal of Gioia seems out of character for you.
 
Sincerely,
 
Jeff Newberry

Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


> Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia
>
> http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm
>
> ============
>
> Interesting, and fodder for several threads.
>
> - Jim

It seems to me just a re-write of his Atlantic piece--but I skimmed it, so
may have missed something. Perhaps one difference is that he's trying
harder now to foster an alliance between the neo-formalists and the spoken
worders, rap artists, etc. against "literary" or "university-centered"
poetry. He did (wow!) mention visual poetry (with little hint he has much
idea what it is)--but said nothing that I noticed about cyber-poetry, by
whatever name. My impression is that he's even further behind the times
than he was when he wrote the Atlantic piece.

--Bob G.

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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From jvcervantes  Wed Jul  2 08:20:10 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:20:10 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <20030702114314.6211.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3F02CDF9.D674935D@earthlink.net>

Well, Bob did write that he "skimmed it."  Gioia is not "behind the
times," nor is he ahead of the times.  I think his general assessment
fits the moment quite well.

More later.  Maybe.

- Jim

p.s. - Jeff, your message wouldn't automatically quote for some reason.

Jeff Newberry wrote:


Bob,
 
Perhaps you read a different piece.  Claiming that "Disappearing Ink" is
a retread of "Can Poetry Matter"
suggests that you not only didn't read "Disppearing Ink" very closely,
but also suggests that you're not
thinking; it suggests that you're being dismissive.
 
You offer nothing to back up your claims that Gioia is, by your
universal standards, "behind the times."  You
offer nothing to back up your claims.
 
His mentioning "university-centered poetry" doesn't mean that the essay
is about "university-centered
poetry."  Go back and reread.  If you skimmed it, you skimmed only a few
paragraphs, it seems.
 
The fact that you disagree with Dana Gioia doesn't dismiss everything
that he writes.  
 
I've always enjoyed your posts to this list, and I find most of what you
say fascinating--its new and outside
the status quo.  But this dismissal of Gioia seems out of character for you.
 
Sincerely,
 
Jeff Newberry



From bobgrumman  Wed Jul  2 09:24:17 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:24:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <20030702114314.6211.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009601c3409d$3e0a2040$e0a0fea9@j1c1k6>

I feel I read enough of Gioia's essay to give an opinion on it.  
And it was an opinion I gave, not a reasoned review.  My impression is that he repeated his standard preference for non-academic poetry over university-centered poetry, and his disdain for poems that critics like because they can discuss it intricately, and his alliance with the populist poets, and his lip-service to language poetry--and visual poetry (about which he clearly knows just about nothing)--and apparent complete lack of interest in just about all the other newer forms of poetry.  He also repeated his baloney about how poetry lost its popularity (this time bringing in James Whitcomb Riley and his state's celebrating his birthday, instead of Tennyson and the crowds following him, wasn't it, last time?) and how we should try to get it back.  I just didn't see anything new in what he said, anywhere.  Frankly, as I read, then skimmed, I thought, this guy is just too lightweight to bother with.  But if the mood strikes me, maybe I'll say more.

Incidentally, I wonder if anyone would have complained about my not backing up my claims if I had said, "Gioia's essay is terrific.  He certainly knows contemporary poetry well."

--Bob G.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 7:43 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "


  Bob,

  Perhaps you read a different piece.  Claiming that "Disappearing Ink" is a retread of "Can Poetry Matter" suggests that you not only didn't read "Disppearing Ink" very closely, but also suggests that you're not thinking; it suggests that you're being dismissive.

  You offer nothing to back up your claims that Gioia is, by your universal standards, "behind the times."  You offer nothing to back up your claims.

  His mentioning "university-centered poetry" doesn't mean that the essay is about "university-centered poetry."  Go back and reread.  If you skimmed it, you skimmed only a few paragraphs, it seems.

  The fact that you disagree with Dana Gioia doesn't dismiss everything that he writes.  

  I've always enjoyed your posts to this list, and I find most of what you say fascinating--its new and outside the status quo.  But this dismissal of Gioia seems out of character for you.

  Sincerely,

  Jeff Newberry

  Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


    > Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia
    >
    > http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm
    >
    > ============
    >
    > Interesting, and fodder for several threads.
    >
    > - Jim

    It seems to me just a re-write of his Atlantic piece--but I skimmed it, so
    may have missed something. Perhaps one difference is that he's trying
    harder now to foster an alliance between the neo-formalists and the spoken
    worders, rap artists, etc. against "literary" or "university-centered"
    poetry. He did (wow!) mention visual poetry (with little hint he has much
    idea what it is)--but said nothing that I noticed about cyber-poetry, by
    whatever name. My impression is that he's even further behind the times
    than he was when he wrote the Atlantic piece.

    --Bob G.

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Do you Yahoo!?
  SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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From bobgrumman  Wed Jul  2 09:44:11 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:44:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <20030702114314.6211.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> <3F02CDF9.D674935D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <009e01c340a0$059b1360$e0a0fea9@j1c1k6>

> Well, Bob did write that he "skimmed it."  Gioia is not "behind the
> times," nor is he ahead of the times.  I think his general assessment
> fits the moment quite well.

I suppose it's a matter of whose moment his assessment fits.  One way I'd
put it is that he's like a theatre critic who knows Broadway well, and
off-Broadway pretty well, but only knows the names of two off-off-Broadway
theatres, and doesn't realize regional theatres exist.  Has he ever written
anything that indicates he knows anything at all about language poetry?  And
language poetry is practically mainstream now.  Certainly it has been quite
visible for 20 years now.

> More later.  Maybe.
>
> - Jim

As I just said in my reply to Jeff Newberry, I may, too.  One reason I may
not is that I have nothing new to say on the topic, myself.  I do have one
point to make, though, and that is that I see no reason why the general
public should have any greater interest in serious poetry than it should
have in serious science, philosophy or music.  Nor do I think it ever has.
Not that I don't believe serious poetry can sometimes appeal even to average
people, and hope that some of mine does.  I believe in aiming my work at its
best possible readers, though.

--Bob G.




From JackTar  Thu Jul  3 01:23:13 2003
From: JackTar (JackTar at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 01:23:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jaggy Stuff
Message-ID: <1a0.1757d207.2c3517c1@aol.com>

Battle Song - Jaggy Stuff.

(Ode to?)

?

?????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????? He looked at himself in 
the glacey mirror??????? (?glacey?, cold- franglais->glassy)

And what he saw was war and terror.

He looked again and remembered his dream

His franglais, mixed, shone not quite clean,

As the laser beam, sharp and unbent

Highly directional, monochromatic, coherent

Bringing secour, help and relief at last.

?

He looked at his dream as a man afar, vast

Like the antimatter in the quantum glass,

Present and past in one place on the cross.

Which door was number three? Right? No left.

Upon opening was a man, on the table edge deft,

Behind young cronies drinking merry.

I left this boat, suffocating ferry.

?

It was night but the day was dawning.

I breathed afresh the new belief spawning

I looked and saw, I listened and heard

A voice from the other side, (Adams) said

-Cried out, Morin is dead. I half awoke????????????? 

In the grey and an idea broke,

untwining the ?frangais? laser clear.

?

?Mort? in! ?Death in?, is dead, reborn hear!

?

I left my long commatic state

To breath again, with life a date.

?

J. Alexander (about12/12/98).

Copyright ? J.A.

( Scanned and punctuated 15/12/2001-8/01/2002 Ed.19/03/2003).

?



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From jvcervantes  Thu Jul  3 21:24:26 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 18:24:26 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
Message-ID: <3F04D74A.8EE3F2D9@earthlink.net>

Happy Birthday, America!

Molly Ivins, AlterNet
July 3, 2003

Viewed on July 3, 2003

AUSTIN, Texas -- Happy birthday, America! Two-hundred twenty-seven years
old and still ready to boogie 'til we puke. What a great country.
Another glorious year in the land of the free and the home of the brave,
with only the usual idiocy attendant. 

As you may recall, we are fond of celebrating in this space not the
majesty, not the glory, but the sheer improbable bliss of life in a free
country. Every Fourth, we reserve this space to praise not the mighty,
but to recognize the general, ordinary goodness -- and slight absurdity
-- of all of us regular citizens. Our motto is the poet Marianne Moore's
observation, "It is an honor to witness so much confusion." 

I'd like to begin by thanking rural Texans for their natural assumption
that Osama bin Laden is called "Osama-Bin," as though he had two front
names, like Billy Bob or Jerry Jeff. The virtue czar turned out to be a
gambling addict. The House of Representatives decided to rename French
fries Freedom fries. Fox News calls itself "fair and balanced."
Fifty-one Texas legislators fled to Ardmore, Okla., to break a quorum,
where they were sought by the Homeland Security Department. Bushism of
the Year (so far) on May 19: "First, let me make it very clear, poor
people aren't necessarily killers. Just because you happen to be not
rich doesn't mean you're wiling to kill." In other words, only the
normal lunacy. 

Since I adore people with harmless passions, I'd like to salute the
bicycle racers who cross Iowa -- not to mention Austin's own Lance
Armstrong -- the people who compete in chili cook-offs, the barbecue
competitions, bake-off entrants, backyard grillers and the judges at the
wine-tastings of this great nation. (We know you only sip in the
slightest fashion.) 

Here's to all the Little League baseball coaches, soccer moms,
volleyball mothers, PeeWee Leaguers, Golden Gloves and Special Olympics
participants. Here's to everyone involved in putting on the Mullet Toss,
the Turkey Trot, the Watermelon Thump, the Fire Ant Festival and all the
other civic fandangles that enrich our communal life. 

In saluting highly irregular Americans, we'd like to recognize the
service of the Houston woman who ran over her husband (several times)
because he was cheating on her. That should cut down on adultery. (The
price of gasoline in Texas has got so high, women who want to run over
their husbands have to carpool.) 

Here's to all the hairdressers who donate free time and service at homes
for the elderly to make the old ladies look great; here's to the
dentists who fix poor kids' teeth for free; here's to everybody who runs
and walks in all those "Runs and Walks for Whatever"; here's to the
Billion Bubba March and the folks in Minnesota who stood outside an
absurdly unscientific speech with duck hats and duck callers to protest
"quack science." 

Here's to everybody who gets together with everybody else to fix
whatever-it-is, and has fun doingit -- citizen activists are the soul of
this country. 

I'd also like to speak to you this Fourth about patriotism. We've got
some patriots here who are enough to give the word a bad name. Their
ugly side is always brought out by war: the
professional-patriot bullies have never been able to distinguish between
dissent and disloyalty. In WWI, we had citizens who used to go around
kicking dachshunds, on the grounds that they were "German dogs." You
notice people like that never go around kicking German shepherds. 

John Henry Faulk's late Cousin Eddie was an unreconstructed reactionary.
He had a sign over his mantel that said, "Robert E. Lee Might've Give
Up, But I Ain't." When Johnny challenged Eddie during Vietnam, saying
dissent was part of patriotism, Eddie replied, "Dis-sent? Hell, yes, I
believe in the right to dis-sent! H'it's in the Constitution! What I
can't stand is all this criticism! Criticize, criticize, criticize. Why
don't they just leave Lyndon alone and let him fight his war in peace?" 

The current situation in Iraq reminds me of yet another of Cousin
Eddie's immortal observations, "If them Veetnamese don't like what we're
doin' for 'em, why don't they just go back where they come from?" 

On the whole, I prefer not to be lectured on patriotism by those who
keep offshore maildrops in order to avoid paying their taxes. 

But let's leave contention aside for a day and celebrate us. Among my
favorite harmless passions is birdwatching, and I recently had the
opportunity to bird (it is a verb in those circles) a bit in Idaho.
Naturally, I had no idea what I was doing -- wound up admiring a yellow
leaf for several minutes under the impression it was an oriole, missed
several eagles and would have ignored a burrowing owl had it not swooped
in front of my face. 

At one point, as were looking into the Snake Canyon, a flock of
something startled out from just underneath us. "What the hell was
that?" I cried. I cannot tell you the perfect courtesy with which the
closest birder turned, utterly deadpan, and replied, "Pigeons." Don't
tell me Americans have no manners. 

I'd like to salute Bubba for the usual number of flat tires he has
stopped to help people with this year. This reminds me to salute the
weekly, half-hour cable TV program dedicated solely to extra stuff you
can buy for your pick-up. Also a perennial fave, the cable show "Working
Out for Jesus With Beverly," about Christian fitness. I suspect Ken
Starr, who reports singing hymns while he jogs, is a devotee. 

A special salute to dog-lovers, cat-lovers, bird-lovers and
animal-lovers generally. Bridge-players, golfers, people who have their
palms read, Jennie Craig dieters, quilters, self-improvers everywhere,
people who take salsa and line-dancing classes, home-tomato-growers,
everybody whose garden produces too much zucchini (something to knit us
together in this variegated nation) and those who are found at the Jiffy
Mart at 2 a.m., buying stuff that is bad for their health. I love you
all. It is, still, a great nation. 

Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist who lives in Texas.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16327



From Rsgwynn1  Fri Jul  4 00:53:23 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 00:53:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
Message-ID: <1e6.c840449.2c366243@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/3/2003 8:25:36 PM Central Standard Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: 
> Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist who lives in Texas.
> 
And a professional cynic who lives in Austin.
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From jvcervantes  Fri Jul  4 09:47:28 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 06:47:28 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
Message-ID: <3F05856F.6E468635@earthlink.net>

 In a message dated 7/3/2003 8:25:36 PM Central Standard Time,
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: 
>> 
>>         Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist who lives in Texas.
>> 
> 
> And a professional cynic who lives in Austin.

Sam, you know there's a whole 'nother Texas and a whole 'nother Texas
and a whole 'nother Texas.

- Jim



From halvard  Fri Jul  4 10:09:05 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 10:09:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: A group on the 4th
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEFOGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Five A.M.

Street by street the lights go out, and the night turns gray,
	bringing respite to this and to all other agencies,
With the gears of commerce unmeshed and stopped, the
	channels of communication slowed and stilled
(Radio, ticker, and spirit control)--

Bringing peace, briefly, to the members of the board and
	bench and staff,
Sleep, for a space, to the journeymen of the switchboard and
	the dictaphone,
Rest to the lieutenants of steel, and wool, and coal, and
	wheat,
And to the envoys from abroad (Her Majesty's, His
	Excellency's, and the mysterious Mr. X),
And to the representatives of the people (both houses), and to
	the vicars of the Lord (conformist and dissident)
And to the inspectors of the arson, forgery, bomb, and
	homicide squads--

While the crated shipments of this agency (with those of
	others) stand in guarded sheds at Quebec,
Wait for release on rainswept wharves of Shanghai and the Rio,
Move, slowly, from a dark siding in Butte.

--Kenneth Fearing 


A Sort of a Song

Let the snake wait under 
his weed
and the writing
be of words, slow and quick, sharp
to strike, quiet to wait,
sleepless.

--through metaphor to reconcile
the people and the stones.
Compose. (No ideas
but in things) Invent!
Saxifrage is my flower that splits
the rocks.

--William Carlos Williams


A Postcard from the Volcano

Children picking up our bones
Will never know that these were once
As quick as foxes on the hill;

And that in autumn, when the grapes
Made sharp air sharper by their smell
These had a being, breathing frost;

And least will guess that with our bones
We left much more, left what still is
The look of things, left what we felt

At what we saw. The spring clouds blow
Above the shuttered mansion-house,
Beyond our gate and the windy sky

Cries out a literate despair.
We knew for long the mansion's look
And what we said of it became

A part of what it is . . . Children,
Still weaving budding aureoles,
Will speak our speech and never know,

Will say of the mansion that it seems
As if he that lived there left behind
A spirit storming in blank walls,

A dirty house in a gutted world,
A tatter of shadows peaked to white,
Smeared with the gold of the opulent sun.

--Wallace Stevens


Stanzas in Meditation, XXXVIII

Which I wish to say is this
There is no beginning to an end
But there is a beginning and an end
To beginning.
Why yes of course.
Any one can learn that north of course
Is not only north but north as north
Why were they worried.
What I wish to say is this.
Yes of course

--Gertrude Stein



Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From Rsgwynn1  Fri Jul  4 11:48:40 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 11:48:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
Message-ID: <1cd.d118c5c.2c36fbd8@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/4/2003 8:47:51 AM Central Standard Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: 
> 
> >>         Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist who lives in Texas.
> >>
> >
> >And a professional cynic who lives in Austin.
> 
> Sam, you know there's a whole 'nother Texas and a whole 'nother Texas
> and a whole 'nother Texas.
> 
> - Jim

Oh, don't get me wrong.  Ms. Molly is in the right town for sure.
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From jvcervantes  Fri Jul  4 12:36:23 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 09:36:23 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
References: <1cd.d118c5c.2c36fbd8@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3F05AD06.E9591D11@earthlink.net>

Sam Gwyn writes: 
> 
> 
>         >>         Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist who lives in Texas.
>         >>
>         >
>         >And a professional cynic who lives in Austin.
> 
>         Sam, you know there's a whole 'nother Texas and a whole 'nother Texas
>         and a whole 'nother Texas.
> 
>         - Jim
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, don't get me wrong.  Ms. Molly is in the right town for sure. 

What would happen to Golly Ms. Molly in your neck of the woods?

- Jim



From Rsgwynn1  Fri Jul  4 13:04:46 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 13:04:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
Message-ID: <187.1c5f8808.2c370dae@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/4/2003 11:36:37 AM Central Standard Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: 
> >Oh, don't get me wrong.  Ms. Molly is in the right town for sure. 
> 
> What would happen to Golly Ms. Molly in your neck of the woods?
> 
> - Jim

She might be exposed to a bit more diversity than usual.  Austin is one of 
the most parochial places in the world.
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From ron.silliman  Sun Jul  6 12:17:54 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 12:17:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman & Burger read in Oakland, July 13
Message-ID: <000001c343da$31fb9a50$f272ed41@Dell>

Reading in Oakland, CA
Sunday, July 13
7-9 PM

Mary Burger
Ron Silliman

at the gallery
21 Grand
449B 23rd Street
(between Broadway & Telegraph)
$4 Cover





From ron.silliman  Mon Jul  7 07:53:14 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 07:53:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's blog
Message-ID: <000101c3447e$5d64efd0$15fa8044@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

Spidertangle: the_book
On the margins between poetry
& visual art
come needlepoint & more

Reading "Biotherm"
by Frank O'Hara

Ted Berrigan:
1934-1983
How strange to be gone in a minute!

Robert Lowell
& the process of literary CPR

Reading Carla Harryman:
Situating poetry along new boundaries

Malevich:
Off center, 
thinking with material & shape

What K. Silem Mohammad
has in common with
Mariah Carey

Phaneronoemikon defined

Reading Kiosk 2

Jonathon Wilcke:
Post-Burroughs, Post-Acker pansexualilty
with a glimmer of optimism

Jean Donnelly's Anthem

A history of blogging
(whilst dishing Matt Drudge)

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

*   *   *

Reading in Oakland, CA
Sunday, July 13
7-9 PM

Mary Burger
Ron Silliman

at the gallery
21 Grand
449B 23rd Street
(between Broadway & Telegraph)
$4 Cover






From mmagee  Mon Jul  7 09:41:59 2003
From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon,  7 Jul 2003 09:41:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
In-Reply-To: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1057585319.3f0978a7a1458@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

Hi all,

Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems, _MS_, 
thought it might interest.

-m.

*************

Publisher's Weekly
Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an 
exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into English's 
latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette Mullen 
with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at his peak 
typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real Slim 
Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their CHANNELED 
HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S. history owe as 
much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what Amadou to 
you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"), but not all 
of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible trajectories. Some 
magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the effect of 
a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching for the first 
neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the bank/ like a 
bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word "vagina" 
for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this book are many, 
capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the spareness of 
Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era Hejinian. As 
Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae, he'll have 
more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American culture and 
cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information.



From tadrichards  Mon Jul  7 10:26:10 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 10:26:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com> <1057585319.3f0978a7a1458@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <005901c34493$b73f5c10$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Wait -- I believe they forgot to compare you to Whitman, Felix the Cat,
Nixon and Scaramouche.

Tad



----- Original Message ----- 
From: <mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:41 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS


> Hi all,
>
> Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems, _MS_,
> thought it might interest.
>
> -m.
>
> *************
>
> Publisher's Weekly
> Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an
> exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into English's
> latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette
Mullen
> with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at his
peak
> typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real Slim
> Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their
CHANNELED
> HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S. history owe
as
> much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what Amadou
to
> you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"), but not
all
> of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible trajectories.
Some
> magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the
effect of
> a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching for the
first
> neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the bank/
like a
> bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word
"vagina"
> for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this book are
many,
> capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the spareness
of
> Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era Hejinian. As
> Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae, he'll have
> more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American culture and
> cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From mmagee  Mon Jul  7 10:34:20 2003
From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon,  7 Jul 2003 10:34:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
In-Reply-To: <005901c34493$b73f5c10$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com> <1057585319.3f0978a7a1458@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <005901c34493$b73f5c10$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <1057588460.3f0984ec7966e@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

Well, I *am* not a crook, nor do I do the fandango, though I do have an 
electric body!  -m.

Quoting TheOldMole <tadrichards at prodigy.net>:

> Wait -- I believe they forgot to compare you to Whitman, Felix the Cat,
> Nixon and Scaramouche.
> 
> Tad
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:41 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
> 
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems, _MS_,
> > thought it might interest.
> >
> > -m.
> >
> > *************
> >
> > Publisher's Weekly
> > Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an
> > exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into English's
> > latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette
> Mullen
> > with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at his
> peak
> > typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real Slim
> > Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their
> CHANNELED
> > HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S. history owe
> as
> > much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what Amadou
> to
> > you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"), but not
> all
> > of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible trajectories.
> Some
> > magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the
> effect of
> > a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching for the
> first
> > neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the bank/
> like a
> > bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word
> "vagina"
> > for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this book are
> many,
> > capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the spareness
> of
> > Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era Hejinian. As
> > Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae, he'll have
> > more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American culture and
> > cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information.
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From bobgrumman  Mon Jul  7 12:05:02 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 12:05:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com> <1057585319.3f0978a7a1458@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <00a701c344a1$871f3a60$66a4fea9@j1c1k6>

Someone at Publisher's Weekly is able to refer to Mullen, Hejinian and
Watten in one short review?!  I'm amazed.  I always thought Publisher's
Weekly as slow to assimilate the new as, say, the New Yorker.  On the other
hand, Mullen, Hejinian and Watten have been around a while, I guess.  Who
wrote the review, do you know, Mike?  Charles B.?

--Bob G.


----- Original Message -----
From: <mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:41 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS


> Hi all,
>
> Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems, _MS_,
> thought it might interest.
>
> -m.
>
> *************
>
> Publisher's Weekly
> Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an
> exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into English's
> latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette
Mullen
> with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at his
peak
> typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real Slim
> Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their
CHANNELED
> HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S. history owe
as
> much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what Amadou
to
> you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"), but not
all
> of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible trajectories.
Some
> magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the
effect of
> a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching for the
first
> neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the bank/
like a
> bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word
"vagina"
> for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this book are
many,
> capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the spareness
of
> Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era Hejinian. As
> Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae, he'll have
> more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American culture and
> cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From paul.lake  Mon Jul  7 12:03:44 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 11:03:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
In-Reply-To: <187.1c5f8808.2c370dae@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BB2F0410.50AF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 7/4/03 12:04 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/4/2003 11:36:37 AM Central Standard Time,
> jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:
>>> >Oh, don't get me wrong.  Ms. Molly is in the right town for sure.
>> 
>> What would happen to Golly Ms. Molly in your neck of the woods?
>> 
>> - Jim
>> 
> 
> She might be exposed to a bit more diversity than usual.  Austin is one of the
> most parochial places in the world.

?In saluting highly irregular Americans, we'd like to recognize the
service of the Houston woman who ran over her husband (several times)
because he was cheating on her. That should cut down on adultery. (The
price of gasoline in Texas has got so high, women who want to run over
their husbands have to carpool.)?

Reverse the sexes and see how funny this is.  The demonstrations begin stage
left. 

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From tadrichards  Mon Jul  7 12:38:37 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 12:38:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
References: <BB2F0410.50AF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <005701c344a6$37517110$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Re: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4thBasically, everyone's definition of parochial is "contains people who don't think the weay we think." My boss at Prodigy, who recently moved to Austin from Fairfield County, CT, and is a hard-core Republican and member of the Second AMendment Sisters, loves it there, and finds an incredible diversity of attitudes.


Tad


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Lake 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 12:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th


  on 7/4/03 12:04 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:


    In a message dated 7/4/2003 11:36:37 AM Central Standard Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: 

      >Oh, don't get me wrong.  Ms. Molly is in the right town for sure. 

      What would happen to Golly Ms. Molly in your neck of the woods?

      - Jim



    She might be exposed to a bit more diversity than usual.  Austin is one of the most parochial places in the world. 


  "In saluting highly irregular Americans, we'd like to recognize the
  service of the Houston woman who ran over her husband (several times)
  because he was cheating on her. That should cut down on adultery. (The
  price of gasoline in Texas has got so high, women who want to run over
  their husbands have to carpool.)"

  Reverse the sexes and see how funny this is.  The demonstrations begin stage left. 
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From halvard  Mon Jul  7 13:31:25 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 13:31:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Benign Virus Appears to Block Bush Strategy"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEJHGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Benign Virus Appears to Block Bush Strategy

Few White House interns or trainees seemed to have any interest
in editing out clich?s or overused visual effects. In fact, very few of them
even came to work wearing a decent suit, or seeming to care
about what happened next. In the screening room, right-wing oil barons

awaited test cores shipped down from Mars and the start of yet another movie
based on superhero comics. "These bad guys are bad," mused one, as the action
got under way. A news team with meat on its bones waited in the corridor?
yes, one of those corridors of power we've heard so much about?

for them to emerge. "What did you think?" asked one, thrusting a mike
toward one of the suits stepping out. "Did it make you feel deeply about
anything at all? Did it make you think?" One said, "That sadist
in the mask?he was really cool." "Evil," said another, "went down

to its traditional defeat." In a conference room down the hall,
the trainees twirled their mustachios as they sought new ways to break
up the logjam of judicial appointments that caused their president
so much grief. "Ben Affleck," one sniffled, "would know what to do."


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From Rsgwynn1  Mon Jul  7 14:00:43 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:00:43 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
Message-ID: <9d.3bafb53b.2c3b0f4b@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/7/2003 11:39:17 AM Central Standard Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: 
> Basically, everyone's definition of parochial is "contains people who don't 
> think the weay we think." My boss at Prodigy, who recently moved to Austin 
> from Fairfield County, CT, and is a hard-core Republican and member of the 
> Second AMendment Sisters, loves it there, and finds an incredible diversity of 
> attitudes.
>   
>   
>  Tad
> 
You're right.  I'm being too hard on the place.  But I wouldn't want to live 
there--too many Yankees transplanted from CT.

I lived in a little town about 25 miles sound from 73-76, and I loved Austin 
then.  But the population has gone through the roof in thirty years.  Back 
then it was a funky town with a lot of good music.  Now it's just urban sprawl.  
Maybe a nicer urban sprawl than most places but sprawl all the same.
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From CobbCoStudioArts  Mon Jul  7 14:13:36 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Benign Virus Appears to Block Bush Strategy"
Message-ID: <20030707181336.9C5873B2E@sitemail.everyone.net>

Hal,

I enjoyed reading "Benign Virus Appears to Block Bush Strategy."
With all of the malingering going on maybe it will become a "malignant
virus."  AFLAK ;-}

Bob

Poetry Catamaran

"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"

Robert R. Cobb
AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
http://rrcobb.tripod.com


--- "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Benign Virus Appears to Block Bush Strategy
>
>Few White House interns or trainees seemed to have any interest
>in editing out clich?s or overused visual effects. In fact, very few of them
>even came to work wearing a decent suit, or seeming to care
>about what happened next. In the screening room, right-wing oil barons
>
>awaited test cores shipped down from Mars and the start of yet another movie
>based on superhero comics. "These bad guys are bad," mused one, as the action
>got under way. A news team with meat on its bones waited in the corridor?
>yes, one of those corridors of power we've heard so much about?
>
>for them to emerge. "What did you think?" asked one, thrusting a mike
>toward one of the suits stepping out. "Did it make you feel deeply about
>anything at all? Did it make you think?" One said, "That sadist
>in the mask?he was really cool." "Evil," said another, "went down
>
>to its traditional defeat." In a conference room down the hall,
>the trainees twirled their mustachios as they sought new ways to break
>up the logjam of judicial appointments that caused their president
>so much grief. "Ben Affleck," one sniffled, "would know what to do."
>
>
>Hal
>
>Halvard Johnson
>===============
>email: halvard at earthlink.net
>website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From tadrichards  Mon Jul  7 14:27:10 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:27:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
References: <9d.3bafb53b.2c3b0f4b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00ac01c344b5$61115100$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

I can understand. I hate urban sprawl, funky or otherwise.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 2:00 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th


  In a message dated 7/7/2003 11:39:17 AM Central Standard Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: 

    Basically, everyone's definition of parochial is "contains people who don't think the weay we think." My boss at Prodigy, who recently moved to Austin from Fairfield County, CT, and is a hard-core Republican and member of the Second AMendment Sisters, loves it there, and finds an incredible diversity of attitudes.
      
      
    Tad


  You're right.  I'm being too hard on the place.  But I wouldn't want to live there--too many Yankees transplanted from CT.

  I lived in a little town about 25 miles sound from 73-76, and I loved Austin then.  But the population has gone through the roof in thirty years.  Back then it was a funky town with a lot of good music.  Now it's just urban sprawl.  Maybe a nicer urban sprawl than most places but sprawl all the same. 
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From halvard  Mon Jul  7 14:43:30 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:43:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
In-Reply-To: <9d.3bafb53b.2c3b0f4b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEJJGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Sam said:

You're right.  I'm being too hard on the place.  But I wouldn't 
want to live there--too many Yankees transplanted from CT.

I lived in a little town about 25 miles sound from 73-76, and I 
loved Austin then.  But the population has gone through the roof 
in thirty years.  Back then it was a funky town with a lot of good 
music.  Now it's just urban sprawl.  Maybe a nicer urban sprawl 
than most places but sprawl all the same. 

Hal says:

Sniff. Even nostalgia ain't what it used to be.


Hal

Hal     "Once upon a time Baltimore was necessary."
                            --Gertrude Stein
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From anny.ballardini  Mon Jul  7 16:45:48 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:45:48 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEJJGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <006901c344c8$bf958120$1e607550@anny>

From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> Sam said:
>
> You're right.  I'm being too hard on the place.  But I wouldn't
> want to live there--too many Yankees transplanted from CT.
>
> I lived in a little town about 25 miles sound from 73-76, and I
> loved Austin then.  But the population has gone through the roof
> in thirty years.  Back then it was a funky town with a lot of good
> music.  Now it's just urban sprawl.  Maybe a nicer urban sprawl
> than most places but sprawl all the same.
>
> Hal says:
>
> Sniff. Even nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
>
>
> Hal
>
> Hal     "Once upon a time Baltimore was necessary."
>                             --Gertrude Stein
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============

How right you are Hal!

Nor cherries or beans, neither cream of stream, or challenge on the peak,
cigarettes have turned sour
-black is the jack white are condors-
only gossip around the long/brief hour .
anny





From marcus  Tue Jul  8 08:09:01 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 08:09:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
In-Reply-To: <1057588460.3f0984ec7966e@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
References: <005901c34493$b73f5c10$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <3F0A7C1D.23007.2DD1C0@localhost>

But were you "born with the gift of laughter, and a sense the world 
is mad"?

Marcus

On 7 Jul 2003 at 10:34, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote:

> Well, I *am* not a crook, nor do I do the fandango, though I do have an 
> electric body!  -m.
> 
> Quoting TheOldMole <tadrichards at prodigy.net>:
> 
> > Wait -- I believe they forgot to compare you to Whitman, Felix the Cat,
> > Nixon and Scaramouche.
> > 
> > Tad
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: <mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
> > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:41 AM
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
> > 
> > 
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems, _MS_,
> > > thought it might interest.
> > >
> > > -m.
> > >
> > > *************
> > >
> > > Publisher's Weekly
> > > Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an
> > > exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into English's
> > > latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette
> > Mullen
> > > with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at his
> > peak
> > > typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real Slim
> > > Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their
> > CHANNELED
> > > HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S. history owe
> > as
> > > much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what Amadou
> > to
> > > you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"), but not
> > all
> > > of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible trajectories.
> > Some
> > > magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the
> > effect of
> > > a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching for the
> > first
> > > neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the bank/
> > like a
> > > bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word
> > "vagina"
> > > for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this book are
> > many,
> > > capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the spareness
> > of
> > > Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era Hejinian. As
> > > Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae, he'll have
> > > more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American culture and
> > > cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From mmagee  Tue Jul  8 08:35:41 2003
From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue,  8 Jul 2003 08:35:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
In-Reply-To: <3F0A7C1D.23007.2DD1C0@localhost>
References: <005901c34493$b73f5c10$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3F0A7C1D.23007.2DD1C0@localhost>
Message-ID: <1057667741.3f0aba9d8d578@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

Quoting Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com>:

> But were you "born with the gift of laughter, and a sense the world 
> is mad"?
> 
> Marcus

As my dear old uncle Ed would say, "Does the Pope shit in the woods?"

-m.

> 
> On 7 Jul 2003 at 10:34, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote:
> 
> > Well, I *am* not a crook, nor do I do the fandango, though I do have an 
> > electric body!  -m.
> > 
> > Quoting TheOldMole <tadrichards at prodigy.net>:
> > 
> > > Wait -- I believe they forgot to compare you to Whitman, Felix the Cat,
> > > Nixon and Scaramouche.
> > > 
> > > Tad
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: <mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu>
> > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:41 AM
> > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems,
> _MS_,
> > > > thought it might interest.
> > > >
> > > > -m.
> > > >
> > > > *************
> > > >
> > > > Publisher's Weekly
> > > > Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an
> > > > exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into
> English's
> > > > latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette
> > > Mullen
> > > > with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at
> his
> > > peak
> > > > typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real
> Slim
> > > > Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their
> > > CHANNELED
> > > > HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S. history
> owe
> > > as
> > > > much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what
> Amadou
> > > to
> > > > you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"), but
> not
> > > all
> > > > of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible
> trajectories.
> > > Some
> > > > magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the
> > > effect of
> > > > a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching for
> the
> > > first
> > > > neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the bank/
> > > like a
> > > > bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word
> > > "vagina"
> > > > for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this book
> are
> > > many,
> > > > capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the
> spareness
> > > of
> > > > Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era Hejinian.
> As
> > > > Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae, he'll
> have
> > > > more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American culture
> and
> > > > cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business
> Information.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From tadrichards  Tue Jul  8 08:42:43 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:42:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
References: <005901c34493$b73f5c10$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3F0A7C1D.23007.2DD1C0@localhost>
Message-ID: <002701c3454e$6d461160$6701a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

You couldn't kill...your own brother.

Actually, there's a wonderful line from the movie "Scaramouche" that's
applicable to poets. It's when Stewart Granger is taking fencing lessons
from Mel Ferrer's fencing master, and the master explains to him, "The sword
is like a little bird. Squeeze it too tightly, you choke it. Squeeze it too
lightly, it flies away."

Tad


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS


> But were you "born with the gift of laughter, and a sense the world
> is mad"?
>
> Marcus
>
> On 7 Jul 2003 at 10:34, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote:
>
> > Well, I *am* not a crook, nor do I do the fandango, though I do have an
> > electric body!  -m.
> >
> > Quoting TheOldMole <tadrichards at prodigy.net>:
> >
> > > Wait -- I believe they forgot to compare you to Whitman, Felix the
Cat,
> > > Nixon and Scaramouche.
> > >
> > > Tad
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: <mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu>
> > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:41 AM
> > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems,
_MS_,
> > > > thought it might interest.
> > > >
> > > > -m.
> > > >
> > > > *************
> > > >
> > > > Publisher's Weekly
> > > > Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an
> > > > exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into
English's
> > > > latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette
> > > Mullen
> > > > with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at
his
> > > peak
> > > > typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real
Slim
> > > > Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their
> > > CHANNELED
> > > > HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S.
history owe
> > > as
> > > > much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what
Amadou
> > > to
> > > > you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"),
but not
> > > all
> > > > of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible
trajectories.
> > > Some
> > > > magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the
> > > effect of
> > > > a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching
for the
> > > first
> > > > neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the
bank/
> > > like a
> > > > bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word
> > > "vagina"
> > > > for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this
book are
> > > many,
> > > > capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the
spareness
> > > of
> > > > Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era
Hejinian. As
> > > > Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae,
he'll have
> > > > more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American
culture and
> > > > cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business
Information.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> Marcus Bales
>
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Tue Jul  8 15:49:14 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 15:49:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: John Ashbery, "Honored Guest"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIELDGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Honored Guest

Accept these nice things we have no use for:
polished twilight, mix of clouds and sun,
minnows in a stream. There may come a time
we'll need them. They're yours forever,
or another dream leaves you thirsty,
waking. You can't see the table
or the bread. How about a clean, unopened letter
and the smell of toast?

School is closed today--it's thundering.
The calendar has backed up or been reversed
so the days have no least common denominator.
Anyway, it was fun, trying to figure out
who you were, what it was that led you to us.
Was it the smell of camphor? Or an ad
in an out-of-state newspaper, seeking news
of someone who disappeared long ago?
He was in a uniform, and leaned against a car,
smiling at a girl who seemed to shade her eyes from him.
Can it be? Candace, was it you? There's no way
she'll look our way again.

What can I tell you? Everything's been locked up
for the night, I couldn't get it for you
if I wanted to. But there must be some way--
it's drizzling, the lamps along the path are weeping,
wanting to show you this tremendous thing,
boxed in forever, always getting closer.

--John Ashbery

fr. *Your Name Here *
[New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2000]


Hal        

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From hruggier  Wed Jul  9 09:09:17 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 09:09:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F0C13FD.4B5A8CB2@localnet.com>

Fascinating essay - thanks for posting it.

h

James Cervantes wrote:

> Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia
>
> http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm
>
> ============
>
> Interesting, and fodder for several threads.
>
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Wed Jul  9 10:15:05 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 07:15:05 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net> <3F0C13FD.4B5A8CB2@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <3F0C236A.3CCCD5DA@earthlink.net>

I was going to comment on it but got distracted being on a hiring
committee and writing revised budgets for two grants I wrote for our lit
festival.  Sigh.  You know how out of touch we academics can get.

At any rate, it was an interesting perspective though
Eminem/Minima/Enema got more print time than a pouting, angst-ridden,
suburban punk should get.  What bugged me was that Gioia gave more
credence to performance poetry, rap, slams (1st cousin to rap), and
cowboy poetry as with-it modes of reaching an audience.  He barely gave
a nod to what is available on the internet.  Maybe that's because it
still has to be read?

- Jim

Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> 
> Fascinating essay - thanks for posting it.
> 
> h
> 
> James Cervantes wrote:
> 
> > Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia
> >
> > http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm
> >
> > ============
> >
> > Interesting, and fodder for several threads.
> >
> > - Jim
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From hruggier  Wed Jul  9 13:27:16 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 13:27:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net> <3F0C13FD.4B5A8CB2@localnet.com> <3F0C236A.3CCCD5DA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F0C5073.10C688FC@localnet.com>

Of course, he selects that which proves his case - and I for one am checking
a rhyming dictionary before I send my next application to the NEA and I will

beat them with a stick.

Yes, academics got too far away from the mob.  Yes, the rest of them got
lost in the mob.  Now what.

James Cervantes wrote:

> I was going to comment on it but got distracted being on a hiring
> committee and writing revised budgets for two grants I wrote for our lit
> festival.  Sigh.  You know how out of touch we academics can get.
>
> At any rate, it was an interesting perspective though
> Eminem/Minima/Enema got more print time than a pouting, angst-ridden,
> suburban punk should get.  What bugged me was that Gioia gave more
> credence to performance poetry, rap, slams (1st cousin to rap), and
> cowboy poetry as with-it modes of reaching an audience.  He barely gave
> a nod to what is available on the internet.  Maybe that's because it
> still has to be read?
>
> - Jim
>
> Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> >
> > Fascinating essay - thanks for posting it.
> >
> > h
> >
> > James Cervantes wrote:
> >
> > > Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia
> > >
> > > http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm
> > >
> > > ============
> > >
> > > Interesting, and fodder for several threads.
> > >
> > > - Jim
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Wed Jul  9 17:35:02 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 14:35:02 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net> <3F0C13FD.4B5A8CB2@localnet.com> <3F0C236A.3CCCD5DA@earthlink.net> <3F0C5073.10C688FC@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <3F0C8A85.9A49ACF0@earthlink.net>


Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> 
> Of course, he selects that which proves his case - and I for one am checking
> a rhyming dictionary before I send my next application to the NEA and I will

Yeah, and don't try to be clever and slip those rhymes in somewhere
mid-line, or back off a full rhyme just to escape classification.

> 
> beat them with a stick.

That's the trick.

> 
> Yes, academics got too far away from the mob.  Yes, the rest of them got
> lost in the mob.  Now what.

We is our own mob.  As a matter of fact, I am my own mob.

- Jim



From MillB  Wed Jul  9 19:10:50 2003
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:10:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA Two Cents
Message-ID: <154.213359b9.2c3dfafa@aol.com>

Greetings,

There has of late been much banter about how there are not enough teaching 
jobs for graduating MFAers and that one a zillion is able to make it as a 
working poet.  The deception. The lies. The horror, the horror. . .

I'd just like to add my two cents.  

Creative writing programs are not unique in this situation.  How many of us 
majored in chamber music only to become accountants? or completed graduate 
studies in 18th century British war history, only to land work as furniture 
salesmen?.  

Nowhere does it state in the college catalogue that students, armed with 
squeeky new diplomas, will obtain careers in the exact field in which they 
received their degree!

In fact, as far as jobs go, I would guess that there are more English majors 
who end up doing something at least remotely related to reading and writing 
than there are former geology majors who are employed as geologists.  How many 
political science majors grow up to be Senators?

There are a few exceptions that I can think of: engineering, business.  These 
degrees are more trade-related than others, though, I think.

More later,

Mill
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From jvcervantes  Wed Jul  9 19:43:19 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 16:43:19 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA Two Cents
References: <154.213359b9.2c3dfafa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F0CA896.A9FD910C@earthlink.net>


MillB at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> There has of late been much banter about how there are not enough
> teaching jobs for graduating MFAers and that one a zillion is able to
> make it as a working poet.  The deception. The lies. The horror, the
> horror. . .
> 
> I'd just like to add my two cents.
> 
> Creative writing programs are not unique in this situation.  How many
> of us majored in chamber music only to become accountants? or
> completed graduate studies in 18th century British war history, only
> to land work as furniture salesmen?.
> 
> Nowhere does it state in the college catalogue that students, armed
> with squeeky new diplomas, will obtain careers in the exact field in
> which they received their degree!

The reality is that there's an unspoken assumption that that will be the
case, nevermind how high-flown or esoteric the field of study.  The
majority are going to college so that they can "get a better job" and be
able to afford the stuff that is their birthright, and the media tells
them what that is.  Some of the others go in and see their profs as role
models.  A few go in with a passion for something and deal with the
consequences as they occur.

- Jim



From halvard  Wed Jul  9 22:23:01 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:23:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIENHGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Dear friends,

This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.

They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an 8-month-old
baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with them
to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to change the
laws governing adoption in its country.

This means the following:

     1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring their
         babies home.

    2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken from those
        families and placed in orphanages.

Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following letter
to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda will be
doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI -- some
Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S. mail.)
See letter below.

Thank you very much.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

****************************************************************

July 8, 2003

Dear :

I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of intercountry
adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of adopting
a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a result of changes
in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new Central
Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting requirements
for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.

I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this situation.

I specifically request that:

(1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens to request
that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to July 1, 2003,
be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan Congress,
rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement the Hague
Convention.

(2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application of the Hague
Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to this treaty.

(3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange meetings
between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN representatives, Guatemalan
adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage) directors.  In my
estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among all concerned parties
in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable and consistent with
Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention, and that truly
promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be reached at:

Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
United States Embassy - Guatemala
Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
Guatemala City, Guatemala
Phone:  011+502-331-1541
Fax:      011+502-331-0564

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Sincerely,










From jvcervantes  Wed Jul  9 23:00:21 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 20:00:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIENHGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F0CD6C5.F0F1ACDE@earthlink.net>

On the way manana, Hal.  BTW, a fed-ex letter (or similar) is best as
all UPS mail still suffers security delays.  You know, the anthrax thing
our intelligence people are still scratching their heads over.  Wish we
had a vote of confidence thingy in this country.

- Jim

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> Dear friends,
> 
> This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.
> 
> They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an 8-month-old
> baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with them
> to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
> has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to change the
> laws governing adoption in its country.
> 
> This means the following:
> 
>      1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring their
>          babies home.
> 
>     2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken from those
>         families and placed in orphanages.
> 
> Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following letter
> to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda will be
> doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI -- some
> Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S. mail.)
> See letter below.
> 
> Thank you very much.
> 
> Hal
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> ****************************************************************
> 
> July 8, 2003
> 
> Dear :
> 
> I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of intercountry
> adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of adopting
> a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a result of changes
> in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new Central
> Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting requirements
> for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.
> 
> I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this situation.
> 
> I specifically request that:
> 
> (1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens to request
> that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to July 1, 2003,
> be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan Congress,
> rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement the Hague
> Convention.
> 
> (2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application of the Hague
> Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to this treaty.
> 
> (3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange meetings
> between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN representatives, Guatemalan
> adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage) directors.  In my
> estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among all concerned parties
> in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable and consistent with
> Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention, and that truly
> promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be reached at:
> 
> Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
> United States Embassy - Guatemala
> Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
> Guatemala City, Guatemala
> Phone:  011+502-331-1541
> Fax:      011+502-331-0564
> 
> Thank you for your attention to this matter.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Wed Jul  9 23:07:49 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 23:07:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
In-Reply-To: <3F0CD6C5.F0F1ACDE@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECENKGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Email would be fine, Jim.

Hal

{    On the way manana, Hal.  BTW, a fed-ex letter (or similar) is best as
{    all UPS mail still suffers security delays.  You know, the anthrax thing
{    our intelligence people are still scratching their heads over.  Wish we
{    had a vote of confidence thingy in this country.
{
{    - Jim
{
{    Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    >
{    > Dear friends,
{    >
{    > This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.
{    >
{    > They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an 8-month-old
{    > baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with them
{    > to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
{    > has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to change the
{    > laws governing adoption in its country.
{    >
{    > This means the following:
{    >
{    >      1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring their
{    >          babies home.
{    >
{    >     2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken from those
{    >         families and placed in orphanages.
{    >
{    > Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following letter
{    > to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda will be
{    > doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI -- some
{    > Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S. mail.)
{    > See letter below.
{    >
{    > Thank you very much.
{    >
{    > Hal
{    >
{    > Halvard Johnson
{    > ===============
{    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    >
{    > ****************************************************************
{    >
{    > July 8, 2003
{    >
{    > Dear :
{    >
{    > I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of intercountry
{    > adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of adopting
{    > a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a result of changes
{    > in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new Central
{    > Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting requirements
{    > for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.
{    >
{    > I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this situation.
{    >
{    > I specifically request that:
{    >
{    > (1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens to request
{    > that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to July 1, 2003,
{    > be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan Congress,
{    > rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement the Hague
{    > Convention.
{    >
{    > (2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application of the Hague
{    > Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to this treaty.
{    >
{    > (3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange meetings
{    > between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN representatives, Guatemalan
{    > adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage) directors.  In my
{    > estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among all concerned parties
{    > in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable and consistent with
{    > Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention, and that truly
{    > promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be reached at:
{    >
{    > Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
{    > United States Embassy - Guatemala
{    > Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
{    > Guatemala City, Guatemala
{    > Phone:  011+502-331-1541
{    > Fax:      011+502-331-0564
{    >
{    > Thank you for your attention to this matter.
{    >
{    > Sincerely,
{    >
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{





From luap  Wed Jul  9 23:11:02 2003
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:11:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
In-Reply-To: <3F0CD6C5.F0F1ACDE@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307092210311.29454-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

Another thought. Since we're 'word people' for the most part, wouldn't it
be better to personalize the messages some?

Just a thought.

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/



On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, James Cervantes wrote:

> On the way manana, Hal.  BTW, a fed-ex letter (or similar) is best as
> all UPS mail still suffers security delays.  You know, the anthrax thing
> our intelligence people are still scratching their heads over.  Wish we
> had a vote of confidence thingy in this country.
> 
> - Jim
> 
> Halvard Johnson wrote:
> > 
> > Dear friends,
> > 
> > This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.
> > 
> > They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an 8-month-old
> > baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with them
> > to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
> > has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to change the
> > laws governing adoption in its country.
> > 
> > This means the following:
> > 
> >      1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring their
> >          babies home.
> > 
> >     2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken from those
> >         families and placed in orphanages.
> > 
> > Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following letter
> > to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda will be
> > doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI -- some
> > Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S. mail.)
> > See letter below.
> > 
> > Thank you very much.
> > 
> > Hal
> > 
> > Halvard Johnson
> > ===============
> > email: halvard at earthlink.net
> > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> > 
> > ****************************************************************
> > 
> > July 8, 2003
> > 
> > Dear :
> > 
> > I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of intercountry
> > adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of adopting
> > a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a result of changes
> > in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new Central
> > Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting requirements
> > for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.
> > 
> > I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this situation.
> > 
> > I specifically request that:
> > 
> > (1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens to request
> > that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to July 1, 2003,
> > be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan Congress,
> > rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement the Hague
> > Convention.
> > 
> > (2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application of the Hague
> > Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to this treaty.
> > 
> > (3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange meetings
> > between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN representatives, Guatemalan
> > adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage) directors.  In my
> > estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among all concerned parties
> > in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable and consistent with
> > Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention, and that truly
> > promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be reached at:
> > 
> > Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
> > United States Embassy - Guatemala
> > Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
> > Guatemala City, Guatemala
> > Phone:  011+502-331-1541
> > Fax:      011+502-331-0564
> > 
> > Thank you for your attention to this matter.
> > 
> > Sincerely,
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From gmguddi  Wed Jul  9 23:42:49 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:42:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIENHGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030709224021.01295660@mail.ilstu.edu>

Hal, others: here's a way to begin to find the contact info for your 
representatives and senators. I've exhausted my limit for the Buffalo list 
today, so if you want, Hal, you can forward this to them. Bookmark them. 
Use them. I do.

http://www.house.gov/writerep/

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

gabe

At 10:23 PM 7/9/2003 -0400, Halvard Johnson wrote:


>Dear friends,
>
>This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.
>
>They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an 
>8-month-old
>baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home 
>with them
>to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
>has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to 
>change the
>laws governing adoption in its country.
>
>This means the following:
>
>      1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to 
> bring their
>          babies home.
>
>     2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be 
> taken from those
>         families and placed in orphanages.
>
>Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the 
>following letter
>to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and 
>Lynda will be
>doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI 
>-- some
>Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S. 
>mail.)
>See letter below.
>
>Thank you very much.
>
>Hal
>
>Halvard Johnson
>===============
>email: halvard at earthlink.net
>website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
>****************************************************************
>
>July 8, 2003
>
>Dear :
>
>I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing 
>of intercountry
>adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of 
>adopting
>a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a 
>result of changes
>in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the 
>new Central
>Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting 
>requirements
>for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.
>
>I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this 
>situation.
>
>I specifically request that:
>
>(1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. 
>citizens to request
>that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to 
>July 1, 2003,
>be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan 
>Congress,
>rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement 
>the Hague
>Convention.
>
>(2) You request that the DOS assert "third party status" in the 
>application of the Hague
>Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded 
>to this treaty.
>
>(3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General's office in Guatemala to arrange 
>meetings
>between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN 
>representatives, Guatemalan
>adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage) 
>directors.  In my
>estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among 
>all concerned parties
>in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable 
>and consistent with
>Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague 
>Convention, and that truly
>promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can 
>be reached at:
>
>Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
>United States Embassy - Guatemala
>Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
>Guatemala City, Guatemala
>Phone:  011+502-331-1541
>Fax:      011+502-331-0564
>
>Thank you for your attention to this matter.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Thu Jul 10 08:40:32 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:40:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307092210311.29454-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECENPGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Natch! Feel free to do so. I did.

Hal

{    Another thought. Since we're 'word people' for the most part, wouldn't it
{    be better to personalize the messages some?
{
{    Just a thought.
{
{    -kpaul
{    mallasch.com/mug/
{
{
{
{    On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, James Cervantes wrote:
{
{    > On the way manana, Hal.  BTW, a fed-ex letter (or similar) is best as
{    > all UPS mail still suffers security delays.  You know, the anthrax thing
{    > our intelligence people are still scratching their heads over.  Wish we
{    > had a vote of confidence thingy in this country.
{    >
{    > - Jim
{    >
{    > Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    > >
{    > > Dear friends,
{    > >
{    > > This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.
{    > >
{    > > They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an 8-month-old
{    > > baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with them
{    > > to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
{    > > has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to change the
{    > > laws governing adoption in its country.
{    > >
{    > > This means the following:
{    > >
{    > >      1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring their
{    > >          babies home.
{    > >
{    > >     2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken from those
{    > >         families and placed in orphanages.
{    > >
{    > > Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following letter
{    > > to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda will be
{    > > doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI -- some
{    > > Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S. mail.)
{    > > See letter below.
{    > >
{    > > Thank you very much.
{    > >
{    > > Hal
{    > >
{    > > Halvard Johnson
{    > > ===============
{    > > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    > >
{    > > ****************************************************************
{    > >
{    > > July 8, 2003
{    > >
{    > > Dear :
{    > >
{    > > I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of intercountry
{    > > adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of adopting
{    > > a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a result of changes
{    > > in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new Central
{    > > Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting requirements
{    > > for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.
{    > >
{    > > I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this situation.
{    > >
{    > > I specifically request that:
{    > >
{    > > (1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens to request
{    > > that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to July 1, 2003,
{    > > be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan Congress,
{    > > rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement the Hague
{    > > Convention.
{    > >
{    > > (2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application of the Hague
{    > > Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to this treaty.
{    > >
{    > > (3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange meetings
{    > > between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN representatives, Guatemalan
{    > > adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage) directors.  In my
{    > > estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among all concerned parties
{    > > in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable and consistent with
{    > > Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention, and that truly
{    > > promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be reached at:
{    > >
{    > > Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
{    > > United States Embassy - Guatemala
{    > > Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
{    > > Guatemala City, Guatemala
{    > > Phone:  011+502-331-1541
{    > > Fax:      011+502-331-0564
{    > >
{    > > Thank you for your attention to this matter.
{    > >
{    > > Sincerely,
{    > >
{    > > _______________________________________________
{    > > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    >
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    >
{
{
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{





From hruggier  Thu Jul 10 09:31:20 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:31:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net> <3F0C13FD.4B5A8CB2@localnet.com> <3F0C236A.3CCCD5DA@earthlink.net> <3F0C5073.10C688FC@localnet.com> <3F0C8A85.9A49ACF0@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F0D6AA7.E917D258@localnet.com>

mob is moi

James Cervantes wrote:

> Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> >
> > Of course, he selects that which proves his case - and I for one am checking
> > a rhyming dictionary before I send my next application to the NEA and I will
>
> Yeah, and don't try to be clever and slip those rhymes in somewhere
> mid-line, or back off a full rhyme just to escape classification.
>
> >
> > beat them with a stick.
>
> That's the trick.
>
> >
> > Yes, academics got too far away from the mob.  Yes, the rest of them got
> > lost in the mob.  Now what.
>
> We is our own mob.  As a matter of fact, I am my own mob.
>
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From marcus  Thu Jul 10 09:43:22 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:43:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
In-Reply-To: <3F0D6AA7.E917D258@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <3F0D353A.1236.5733A1@localhost>

> > We is our own mob.  As a matter of fact, I am my own mob.
> > - Jim

On 10 Jul 2003 at 9:31, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> mob is moi
 
A mob of one?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 10 09:54:55 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 06:54:55 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F0D353A.1236.5733A1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F0D702E.3F327D82@earthlink.net>

I think we're speaking figuratively and metaphorically.

- Jim, mob spokesperson

Marcus Bales wrote:
> 
> > > We is our own mob.  As a matter of fact, I am my own mob.
> > > - Jim
> 
> On 10 Jul 2003 at 9:31, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> > mob is moi
> 
> A mob of one?
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jnewberry1974  Thu Jul 10 10:03:20 2003
From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:03:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
In-Reply-To: <3F0D353A.1236.5733A1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030710140320.48384.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com>

A Mob of One
 
Finally, a title for my punk band.
 
Jeff Newberry

Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> > We is our own mob. As a matter of fact, I am my own mob.
> > - Jim

On 10 Jul 2003 at 9:31, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> mob is moi

A mob of one?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 10 10:06:02 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:06:02 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <20030710140320.48384.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3F0D72C9.CA902ED4@earthlink.net>

Jeff Newberry wrote:


> A Mob of One
> 
> Finally, a title for my punk band.

That would be unaccompanied, right?

- Jim



From tadrichards  Thu Jul 10 10:37:13 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:37:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIENHGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <003e01c346f0$c0c0ebf0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Hal -- will do, and will post on other lists.

Tad


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 10:23 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda




Dear friends,

This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.

They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an
8-month-old
baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with
them
to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to
change the
laws governing adoption in its country.

This means the following:

     1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring
their
         babies home.

    2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken
from those
        families and placed in orphanages.

Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following
letter
to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda
will be
doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI -- 
some
Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S.
mail.)
See letter below.

Thank you very much.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

****************************************************************

July 8, 2003

Dear :

I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of
intercountry
adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of
adopting
a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a
result of changes
in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new
Central
Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting
requirements
for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.

I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this
situation.

I specifically request that:

(1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens
to request
that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to
July 1, 2003,
be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan
Congress,
rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement
the Hague
Convention.

(2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application
of the Hague
Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to
this treaty.

(3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange
meetings
between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN
representatives, Guatemalan
adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage)
directors.  In my
estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among
all concerned parties
in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable
and consistent with
Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention,
and that truly
promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be
reached at:

Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
United States Embassy - Guatemala
Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
Guatemala City, Guatemala
Phone:  011+502-331-1541
Fax:      011+502-331-0564

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Sincerely,







_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From hruggier  Thu Jul 10 10:46:14 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:46:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <20030710140320.48384.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> <3F0D72C9.CA902ED4@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F0D7C35.2F2355EC@localnet.com>

I didn't pay attention during the verb section -  pronouns yes.
would  "mob are moi" be ok if I immediately took arsenic.
Miss Piggy


James Cervantes wrote:

> Jeff Newberry wrote:
>
> > A Mob of One
> >
> > Finally, a title for my punk band.
>
> That would be unaccompanied, right?
>
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Thu Jul 10 11:01:43 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:01:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
In-Reply-To: <003e01c346f0$c0c0ebf0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEODGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Thanks, Tad.

Hal

{    Hal -- will do, and will post on other lists.
{
{    Tad
{
{
{    ----- Original Message -----
{    From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
{    To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
{    Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 10:23 PM
{    Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
{
{
{
{
{    Dear friends,
{
{    This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.
{
{    They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an
{    8-month-old
{    baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with
{    them
{    to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
{    has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to
{    change the
{    laws governing adoption in its country.
{
{    This means the following:
{
{         1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring
{    their
{             babies home.
{
{        2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken
{    from those
{            families and placed in orphanages.
{
{    Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following
{    letter
{    to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda
{    will be
{    doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI --
{    some
{    Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S.
{    mail.)
{    See letter below.
{
{    Thank you very much.
{
{    Hal
{
{    Halvard Johnson
{    ===============
{    email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{
{    ****************************************************************
{
{    July 8, 2003
{
{    Dear :
{
{    I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of
{    intercountry
{    adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of
{    adopting
{    a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a
{    result of changes
{    in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new
{    Central
{    Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting
{    requirements
{    for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.
{
{    I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this
{    situation.
{
{    I specifically request that:
{
{    (1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens
{    to request
{    that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to
{    July 1, 2003,
{    be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan
{    Congress,
{    rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement
{    the Hague
{    Convention.
{
{    (2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application
{    of the Hague
{    Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to
{    this treaty.
{
{    (3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange
{    meetings
{    between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN
{    representatives, Guatemalan
{    adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage)
{    directors.  In my
{    estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among
{    all concerned parties
{    in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable
{    and consistent with
{    Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention,
{    and that truly
{    promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be
{    reached at:
{
{    Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
{    United States Embassy - Guatemala
{    Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
{    Guatemala City, Guatemala
{    Phone:  011+502-331-1541
{    Fax:      011+502-331-0564
{
{    Thank you for your attention to this matter.
{
{    Sincerely,
{
{
{
{
{
{
{
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{





From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 10 12:31:13 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:31:13 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] bloglet, 7/10/03
Message-ID: <3F0D94D1.5DC17105@earthlink.net>

7/10/03

It's been almost three months since I last sat down to enter a bloglet. 
It's been a little less than three months since I last watched TV. 
thunkitthrough.org is bust, but I'm recruiting members for
kucinichmaybe.org on the internet and recruiting members for
deanmaybe.org at the malls.  I've also renewed my passport.

Anyway, when I'm feeling strong, I take in a little TV and I see nothing
has changed much.  Bush is still convinced by everything he's said
and Rumsfeld is still one-upping Kafka and Orwell.  The last thing I
heard from him was something like "It's o.k. for the facts to change." 
That was at a press conference on CNN or C-Span and not one reporter
asked for clarification.  I imagined a reporter pressing him on it and
Rummy replying, "Because then we have new facts and that's o.k. because
it's natural for the facts to change."  I wonder how many alcoholics
there are now in the press corps.

The big topic at Starbucks now is the reality of politics on the
internet - we meet there every Saturday morning and talk about our
e-mails and the latest petitions.  Bulinda, my new friend, is critical
and says it's an echo chamber.  Arial sees nothing wrong with the fact
that we're all on the same lists, especially since we can use our real
names and not aliases.  Bulinda says that's b.s. and that aliases would
at least make it seem like there's more of us, especially if we keep the
aliases a secret from each other.  When things get like that, I get on
my bike and ride away.

comments to UrmeIamU at aol.con

p.s. - Thanks, Jim, for letting me use your account.



From Rsgwynn1  Thu Jul 10 15:42:35 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:42:35 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
Message-ID: <ae.43cd35b1.2c3f1bab@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/10/2003 9:45:53 AM Central Daylight Time, 
hruggier at localnet.com writes: 
> 
> I didn't pay attention during the verb section -  pronouns yes.
> would  "mob are moi" be ok if I immediately took arsenic.
> Miss Piggy

I suppose we're talking about "demoicracy," right?
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From jnewberry1974  Thu Jul 10 17:04:59 2003
From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:04:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
In-Reply-To: <ae.43cd35b1.2c3f1bab@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20030710210459.79754.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com>

Demoicracy . . . 
 
Wasn't that the title of a Emily Whitman collection?  Or was that Walt Dickinson?
 
Jeff Newberry

Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
In a message dated 7/10/2003 9:45:53 AM Central Daylight Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes: 

I didn't pay attention during the verb section -  pronouns yes.
would  "mob are moi" be ok if I immediately took arsenic.
Miss Piggy

I suppose we're talking about "demoicracy," right? 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
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From ron.silliman  Sat Jul 12 07:42:51 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 07:42:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Reminder: Burger & Silliman in Oakland, July 13
Message-ID: <000101c3486a$bde1a200$d7f5f343@Dell>

This coming Sunday

Reading in Oakland, CA
Sunday, July 13
7-9 PM

Mary Burger
Ron Silliman

at the gallery
21 Grand
449B 23rd Street
(between Broadway & Telegraph)
$4 Cover





From MillB  Sat Jul 12 09:13:13 2003
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:13:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Uncle Jacques' Symphony
Message-ID: <1cc.d9310e1.2c416369@aol.com>

Greetings:

For those of you in the Los Angeles area, there is an amazingly poetic one 
man show at Stages Theatre (next door to Cafe des Artistes).? It is an Amazing 
work. . .If you can, it I strongly urge you to do so!

It's only through July 26th!

Here's a blurb:? "Uncle Jacques' Symphony is a musical without the music. A 
jazz drummer forced to surrender his drums and take a "straight gig" to support 
his
family, he finds another type of music in the harmonies and rhythms of the
people he comes in contact with on his new job. Instead of a set of drums,
the instruments are human beings, and the music produced in life is as
compelling and musical as any jazz set he ever played."

Here's the web page:
<A HREF="http://www.stagestheatrecenter.com/">http://www.stagestheatrecenter.com/</A>

Cheers,


Mill



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From jvcervantes  Sat Jul 12 11:44:08 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:44:08 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
Message-ID: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net>

In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:

I'm Not Evil

You're Not Evil


No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.

I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.

- Jim



From tadrichards  Sat Jul 12 12:15:34 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 12:15:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
References: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005b01c34890$d523a780$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Jim -- I really like this one. As administrator of an online news discussion
bulletinboard which attracts both righties and lefties, I hear far too much
extreme rhetoric.

Tad


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: "new-poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:44 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement


> In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
>
> I'm Not Evil
>
> You're Not Evil
>
>
> No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
>
> I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
>
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Sat Jul 12 12:23:35 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:23:35 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
References: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net> <005b01c34890$d523a780$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <3F103607.533D721@earthlink.net>

Yeah, it works because it undercuts the big lie on which the others have
been predicated.

- Jim

TheOldMole wrote:
> 
> Jim -- I really like this one. As administrator of an online news discussion
> bulletinboard which attracts both righties and lefties, I hear far too much
> extreme rhetoric.
> 
> Tad
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> To: "new-poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:44 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
> 
> > In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> > or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> >
> > I'm Not Evil
> >
> > You're Not Evil
> >
> >
> > No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> > have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
> >
> > I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
> >
> > - Jim
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From gmguddi  Sat Jul 12 12:21:30 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 11:21:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] evil
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030712111900.012a9750@mail.ilstu.edu>

[Sent this to BuffPo earlier but seeing Jim's t-shirt topic, I provide it 
here. This article from The Boston Globe reminds me distantly of an 
aphorism from Solzhenitsyn I have favored recently, ""If only there were 
evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were 
necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But 
the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human 
being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"]

"Bush's war against evil
By James Carroll, 7/8/2003

IN THE GOTHIC splendor of the National Cathedral, that liturgy of trauma, 
George W. Bush made the most stirring - and ominous - declaration of his 
presidency. It was Sept. 14, 2001. ''Just three days removed from these 
events,'' he said, ''Americans do not yet have ''the distance of history.'' 
But our responsibility to history is already clear: to answer these attacks 
and rid the world of evil.''

The statement fell on the ears of most Americans, perhaps, as mere rhetoric 
of the high pulpit, but as the distance of history lengthens, events show 
that in those few words the president redefined his raison d'etre and that 
of the nation - nothing less than to ''rid the world of evil.'' The 
unprecedented initiatives taken from Washington in the last two years are 
incomprehensible except in the context of this purpose.
President Bush, one sees now, meant exactly what he said. Something 
entirely new, for Americans, at least, is animating their government. The 
greatest power the earth has ever seen is now expressly mobilized against 
the world's most ancient mystery. What human beings have proven incapable 
of doing ever before, George W. Bush has taken on as his personal mission, 
aiming to accomplish it in one election cycle, two at most.

What the president may not know is that the worst manifestations of evil 
have been the blowback of efforts to be rid of it. If one can refer to the 
personification of evil, Satan's great trick consists in turning the fierce 
energy of such purification back upon itself. Across the distance of 
history, the most noble ambition has invariably led to the most ignoble 
deeds. This is because the certitude of nobility overrides the moral qualm 
that adheres to less transcendent enterprises. The record of this deadly 
paradox is written in the full range of literature, from Sophocles to 
Fyodor Dostoyevski to Ursula K. LeGuin, each of whom raises the perennial 
question: What is permitted to be done in the name of ''ridding the world 
of evil''?

Is lying allowed? Torture? The killing of children? Or, less drastic, the 
militarization of civil society? The launching of dubious wars? But wars 
are never dubious at their launchings. The recognition of complexity - 
moral as well as martial - comes only with ''the distance of history,'' and 
it is that perspective that has begun to press itself upon the American 
conscience now.

Having forthrightly set out to rid the world of evil, first in Afghanistan, 
then in Iraq, has the United States, willy-nilly, become an instrument of 
evil? Lying (weapons of mass deception). Torture (if only by US 
surrogates). The killing of children (''collaterally,'' but inevitably). 
The vulgarization of patriotism (last week's orgy of bunting). The 
imposition of chaos (and calling it freedom). The destruction of alliances 
(''First Iraq, then France''). The invitation to other nations to behave in 
like fashion (Goodbye, Chechnya). The inexorable escalation (''Bring 'em 
on!''). The made-in-Washington pantheon of mythologized enemies (first 
Osama, now Saddam). The transmutation of ordinary young Americans (into 
dead heroes). How does all of this, or any of it, ''rid the world of evil''?

Which brings us back to that Gothic cathedral of a question: What is evil 
anyway? Is it the impulse only of tyrants? Of enemies alone? Or is it tied 
to the personal entitlement onto which America, too, hangs its bunting? Is 
evil the thing, perhaps, that forever inclines human beings to believe that 
they are themselves untouched by it? Moral maturity, mellowed across the 
distance of history, begins in the acknowledgement that evil, whatever its 
primal source, resides, like a virus in its niche, in the human self. There 
is no ridding the world of evil for the simple fact that, shy of history's 
end, there is no ridding the self of it.

But there's the problem with President Bush. It is not the moral immaturity 
of the texts he reads. Like his callow statement in the National Cathedral, 
they are written by someone else. When the president speaks, unscripted, 
from his own moral center, what shows itself is a bottomless void.

To address concerns about the savage violence engulfing ''postwar'' Iraq 
with a cocksure ''Bring `em on!'' as he did last week, is to display an 
absence of imagination shocking in a man of such authority. It showed a 
lack of capacity to identify either with enraged Iraqis who must rise to 
such a taunt or with young GIs who must now answer for it. Even in 
relationship to his own soldiers, there is nothing at the core of this man 
but visceral meanness.

No human being with a minimal self-knowledge could speak of evil as he 
does, but there is no self-knowledge without a self. Even this short 
''distance of history'' shows George W. Bush to be, in that sense, the 
selfless president, which is not a compliment. It's a warning.

James Carroll's column appears regularly in the Globe.
This story ran on page A19 of the Boston Globe on 7/8/2003.
? Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company.






From Rsgwynn1  Sat Jul 12 12:27:59 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 12:27:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
Message-ID: <12d.2d68eccf.2c41910f@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/12/2003 10:45:13 AM Central Standard Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: 
> In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> 
> I'm Not Evil
> 
> You're Not Evil
R. W. Emerson for President!
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From gmguddi  Sat Jul 12 12:34:36 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 11:34:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
In-Reply-To: <3F103607.533D721@earthlink.net>
References: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net>
 <005b01c34890$d523a780$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030712112651.012a10a0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Jim, I made up those flyers containing reminders for the fourth of july and 
distributed them to family members, strangers, and left them in every 
reststop restroom, restaurant, and pitstop between Bloomington Illinois and 
Moorhead Minnesota when Clio, my daughter, and I went "home" to the 
Fargo-Moorhead region for the fourth and a week with my family. Some great 
discussions resulted, but most satisfactory of all was the sense of relief 
I saw on people's faces when they read some of the reminders about what 
democracy is really about.

At 09:23 AM 7/12/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
>Yeah, it works because it undercuts the big lie on which the others have
>been predicated.
>
>- Jim
>
>TheOldMole wrote:
> >
> > Jim -- I really like this one. As administrator of an online news 
> discussion
> > bulletinboard which attracts both righties and lefties, I hear far too much
> > extreme rhetoric.
> >
> > Tad
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> > To: "new-poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:44 AM
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
> >
> > > In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> > > or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> > >
> > > I'm Not Evil
> > >
> > > You're Not Evil
> > >
> > >
> > > No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> > > have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
> > >
> > > I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
> > >
> > > - Jim
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Sat Jul 12 14:39:52 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 11:39:52 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
References: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net>
	 <005b01c34890$d523a780$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <5.1.1.6.0.20030712112651.012a10a0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F1055F8.1ECA0F72@earthlink.net>

Terriric!  Some folks have been telling me the "I'm Not Evil/You're Not
Evil" slogan is too subtle, but the gal who runs the t-shirt shop at the
mall got it right away, as did a customer who was there when I picked up
my t-shirts.

In the meantime, I have gotten an offer from an internet t-shirt
entrepeneur to sell the shirts with all proceeds going to the Kucinich campaign!

- Jim

Gabriel Gudding wrote:
> 
> Jim, I made up those flyers containing reminders for the fourth of july and
> distributed them to family members, strangers, and left them in every
> reststop restroom, restaurant, and pitstop between Bloomington Illinois and
> Moorhead Minnesota when Clio, my daughter, and I went "home" to the
> Fargo-Moorhead region for the fourth and a week with my family. Some great
> discussions resulted, but most satisfactory of all was the sense of relief
> I saw on people's faces when they read some of the reminders about what
> democracy is really about.
> 
> At 09:23 AM 7/12/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
> >Yeah, it works because it undercuts the big lie on which the others have
> >been predicated.
> >
> >- Jim
> >
> >TheOldMole wrote:
> > >
> > > Jim -- I really like this one. As administrator of an online news
> > discussion
> > > bulletinboard which attracts both righties and lefties, I hear far too much
> > > extreme rhetoric.
> > >
> > > Tad
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> > > To: "new-poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:44 AM
> > > Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
> > >
> > > > In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> > > > or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> > > >
> > > > I'm Not Evil
> > > >
> > > > You're Not Evil
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> > > > have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
> > > >
> > > > I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
> > > >
> > > > - Jim
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From elemenope  Sat Jul 12 05:14:48 2003
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 17:14:48 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cervantes' grass roots statement
In-Reply-To: <200307121601.h6CG17ST007874@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200307121601.h6CG17ST007874@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100304bb357f26b088@[204.215.201.198]>

>
>>In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
>>or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
>>
>>I'm Not Evil
>>
>You're Not Evil




This is a productive approach.  Last night at Borders a young woman 
wound through the stacks, veered past in pink t-shirt that read: "Men 
Are Pigs."

No smile there.  It seems a cheap shot to tell it but I saw it in her 
face, in its snout, a kind of piglike adamantness.

At least she made no distinction between Bubba and Dubya.

>
>Message: 3
>Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:44:08 -0700
>From: James Cervantes <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
>To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
>or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
>
>I'm Not Evil
>
>You're Not Evil
>
>
>No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
>have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
>
>I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
>
>- Jim
>

-- 



From gmguddi  Sun Jul 13 00:12:58 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:12:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] be ready
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030712231218.04739440@mail.ilstu.edu>

http://www.ready.gov/

Poetry *is* Readiness




From paul.lake  Mon Jul 14 11:43:57 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:43:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
In-Reply-To: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BB3839ED.510D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I know that people on the left have been stunned to hear their criticism of
the Bush administration described as unpatriotic--i.e. "evil." But
conservatives I've read over the last couple of years argue that it is the
left that refuses to engage in reasoned argument, suggesting instead, for
example, that if you oppose policies like racial preferences you're not
merely mistaken, but evil.  I agree with you, Jim, that's it's time for both
sides to engage in reasoned debate instead of demonization.

I hope people understand what the tee shirt's logo means.

Paul Lake







on 7/12/03 10:44 AM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:

> In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> 
> I'm Not Evil
> 
> You're Not Evil
> 
> 
> No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
> 
> I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
> 
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From anny.ballardini  Mon Jul 14 16:39:22 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:39:22 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] (Pterodactyls
Message-ID: <006b01c34a48$024b5ce0$af607550@anny>

(Pterodactyls, flying reptiles

Archaeopterix, airborne reptile with feathers

Hesperornis regalis

birds come from dinosaurs?)

 

was walking 

it triggered in front of my eyes

was thinking and didn?t notice

went back

similar to a dark brown warm detached flying hand

with the queue of my eye in the distance

i saw it was a big red butterfly

 

too slow of me to get another glimpse of it

 

 
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From JforJames  Mon Jul 14 17:21:51 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:21:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Don't Die Without One
Message-ID: <128.2df9ded9.2c4478ef@aol.com>

Britain's Poet Laureate Andrew Motion has backed a project that aims to 
ensure everyone is given a fitting eulogy at their funeral, whatever their 
backgrounds.     
    
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3063221.stm



From jvcervantes  Mon Jul 14 18:22:21 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:22:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
References: <BB3839ED.510D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F132D1C.672ABBA@earthlink.net>


Paul Lake wrote:
> 
> I know that people on the left have been stunned to hear their criticism of
> the Bush administration described as unpatriotic--i.e. "evil." But
> conservatives I've read over the last couple of years argue that it is the
> left that refuses to engage in reasoned argument, suggesting instead, for
> example, that if you oppose policies like racial preferences you're not
> merely mistaken, but evil.  I agree with you, Jim, that's it's time for both
> sides to engage in reasoned debate instead of demonization.
> 
> I hope people understand what the tee shirt's logo means.

The gal who runs the t-shirt shop (in a middle-class mall) got it, as
did another customer at the counter when I went to retrieve the shirts,
as well as a hispanic couple nearby - the husband did a thumbs up.  This
morning I wore it for the first time in public on a shopping trip to my
local supermarket.  Every other customer I encountered zeroed in on it,
some averting their eyes as soon as I noticed they were looking at it,
some expressionless though they were looking at it, and one woman
followed me, got ahead, then turned around so she could read it again,
and she got a little smile.  I don't know what they were thinking, of
course, but I had the feeling it did get them thinking.

- Jim



From Cadaly  Mon Jul 14 19:59:10 2003
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:59:10 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] S A L T   P U B L I S H I N G
Message-ID: <1e0.d4a4d81.2c449dce@aol.com>


>S A L T   P U B L I S H I N G
>New books for July 2003
>
>
>NORTH AMERICA
>
>   CATHERINE DALY
>   "DaDaDa"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1876857951
<A HREF="http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1876857951.htm">http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1876857951.htm</A>

>   AARON MCCOLLOUGH
>   "Double Venus"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1844710033
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844710033.htm
>
>   ETHAN PAQUIN
>   "Accumulus"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1844710157
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844710157.htm
>
>
>EUROPE
>
>   ANDREW DUNCAN
>   "The Failure of Conservatism in Modern British Poetry"
>   Salt Studies in Contemporary Poetry
>   1876857579
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/sscp/1876857579.htm
>
>   PETER MIDDLETON
>   "Aftermath"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1876857633
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1876857633.htm
>
>   JOHN WILKINSON
>   "Contrivances"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1876857609
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1876857609.htm
>
>
>AUSTRALASIA
>
>   MIKE BRENNAN
>   "The Imageless World"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   184471005X
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/184471005X.htm
>
>   DANIEL KEENE
>   "Terminus and Other Plays"
>   Salt Modern Drama
>   1876857188
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smd/1876857188.htm
>
>   CATH KENNEALY
>   "All Day, All Night"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1876857099
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1876857099.htm
>
>   JOHN KINSELLA (Ed.)
>   "Salt Volume 17 Issue 1"
>   Salt International Journal of Poetry and Poetics
>   1844710068
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/journals/1844710068.htm
>
>   JOHN KINSELLA & TRACY RYAN
>   "Conspiracies"
>   Salt Modern Fiction
>   1844710181
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/smf/1844710181.htm
>
>   MARK PIRIE
>   "Gallery: A Selection"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1876857242
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1876857242.htm
>
>
>If you wish to be removed from future titles announcements, please 
>reply to this email with remove in the subject line.
>
>
>Salt Publishing
>http://www.saltpublishing.com
>
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From paul.lake  Tue Jul 15 09:49:07 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:49:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
In-Reply-To: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BB389018.511B%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>


     ?
(AP)
Republicans appeal "to the dark underside of American culture, to that
minority of Americans who reject democracy and equality," NAACP Chairman
Julian Bond said yesterday at the civil rights group's 94th annual
convention.

The above attitude might require a different tee shirt:

I'm Good

You're Evil






on 7/12/03 10:44 AM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:

> In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> 
> I'm Not Evil
> 
> You're Not Evil
> 
> 
> No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
> 
> I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
> 
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From paul.lake  Tue Jul 15 09:54:35 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:54:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A new grass roots movement
Message-ID: <BB3971CB.5122%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

     ?
(AP)
Republicans appeal "to the dark underside of American culture, to that
minority of Americans who reject democracy and equality," NAACP Chairman
Julian Bond said yesterday at the civil rights group's 94th annual
convention.

The above attitude might require a different tee shirt:

I'm Good

You're Evil

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 15 13:10:38 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:10:38 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
References: <BB389018.511B%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F14358E.E671F75F@earthlink.net>

But that plays right into their hands and supports their black and white
rhetoric, as well as other false dichotomies.

- Jim, possibly naive

Paul Lake wrote:
> 
>      ?
> (AP)
> Republicans appeal "to the dark underside of American culture, to that
> minority of Americans who reject democracy and equality," NAACP Chairman
> Julian Bond said yesterday at the civil rights group's 94th annual
> convention.
> 
> The above attitude might require a different tee shirt:
> 
> I'm Good
> 
> You're Evil
> 
> on 7/12/03 10:44 AM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:
> 
> > In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> > or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> >
> > I'm Not Evil
> >
> > You're Not Evil
> >
> >
> > No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> > have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
> >
> > I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
> >
> > - Jim
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > ---
> > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> >
> >
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From paul.lake  Mon Jul 14 13:27:16 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:27:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A grass roots statement
Message-ID: <BB385223.510D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>



     ?
(AP)
Republicans appeal "to the dark underside of American culture, to that
minority of Americans who reject democracy and equality," NAACP Chairman
Julian Bond said yesterday at the civil rights group's 94th annual
convention.


And example of what I recently posted about the left's tendency to demonize.
Translated to a tee shirt, this would read

You're evil

I'm good

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From JforJames  Tue Jul 15 23:11:45 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:11:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mamaphonic
Message-ID: <11e.23cd3c83.2c461c71@aol.com>

>     Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:36:09 -0400
>     From: Cheryl Dobinson <cjdobins at yorku.ca>
>Reply-To: cjdobins at yorku.ca
>  Subject: Call for Submissions: Mamaphonic
>       To: unlisted-recipients@
>
>Call for Submissions: Mamaphonic
>
>Do you have a toddler seat strapped in the back of the tour van? Do you
>write poetry while the baby naps? Have you discovered that becoming a
>mother has changed not only your daily life but the content of your
>creative work? Mamaphonic is an anthology of writing about mothering,
>the creative process, and reciprocity within the artistic community. The
>book will include confessions and conversations about the true,
>exhilirating, entertaining, and difficult aspects of remaining creative
>while raising kids.  We are seeking literary first-person nonfiction
>essays of 2,000 - 4,000 words. Queries are encouraged. We are interested
>in hearing from mothers participating in all aspects of art, writing,
>music, puppetry, performance, film, photography, independent publishing,
>or any other creative endeavor.  We are seeking diverse views on
>subjects such as: children as muses, how an artist's daily life is
>changed after becoming a mother, how women balance their work and
>creative process with motherhood, and the specific influence of
>parenting on career trajectory and expectations. Although we are
>primarily concerned with the positive influences motherhood can have on
>the artistic process, we are also interested in the challenges
>motherhood brings to the working artist and how those challenges are met
>and overcome.
>
>Edited by Bee Lavender and Maia Rossini and published by Soft
><http://www.softskull.com>  Skull Press, the book will also include a
>compendium of practical resources for working artistic mothers.
>Compensation includes $50 and two review copies. The deadline for
>submissions is September 1, 2003.
>
>Please forward this message extensively.
>
>Hard copies can be mailed to:
>Mamaphonic c/o Hip Mama PO Box 28870 Seattle, WA 98118
>Email queries and submissions:
>submissions at mamaphonic.com
>Mamaphonic.com <http://www.mamaphonic.com>



From JforJames  Wed Jul 16 14:09:19 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:09:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Josephine Jacobsen obit
Message-ID: <142.158ad17c.2c46eecf@aol.com>

Josephine Jacobsen, 94, nation's former top poet 

07/13/03


From JforJames  Wed Jul 16 14:22:45 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:22:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins moves Forward in UK
Message-ID: <155.2151d82a.2c46f1f5@aol.com>

BBC News
US laureate leads Forward list 
US Poet Laureate Billy Collins leads the nominees for the UK's richest annual 
poetry award, the Forward Prize. 
Collins joins Ciaran Carson, Ian Duhig, Lavinia Greenlaw and Paul Muldoon on 
the shortlist for the ?10,000 prize for the best published poetry collection. 

The winner will be announced on 8 October - the eve of National Poetry Day. 

Times Literary Supplement editor Peter Stodhard chairs this year's judging 
panel, which includes poet Connie Bensley, TV presenter Daisy Goodwin, former 
Forward nominee Vona Groarke, and singer Beth Orton. 

As well as the prize for best collection, there are other awards for a best 
first collection and best single poem. 

Forward Arts Foundation chairman William Siegart said: "With so many 
excellent collections published this year, I did not envy this year's judging panel in 
arriving at these shortlists. 

'Exciting' 

"It's encouraging to see such varied poets, and exciting to see who the 
emerging talents are in the best first collection and single poem categories." 

Collins, who comes to the end of a two-year-term as US laureate this year, is 
shortlisted for Nine Horses, the follow-up to his hugely successful Taking 
Off Emily Dickinson's Clothes. 

Belfast-born Peter Carson is nominated for his collection Breaking News. 

Lavinia Greenlaw is nominated for her third collection, Minsk, while 
Leeds-based writer Ian Duhig is up for The Lammas Hireling - the title poem of which 
won the best single poem prize last year. 

Oxford professor of poetry Paul Muldoon is a contender for the award thanks 
to his latest collection, Moy, Sand and Gravel. 

Rhian Gallagher, AB Jackson, John McAuliffe, Jane Routh and Sarah Wardle are 
up for the ?5,000 best first collection prize, while the ?1,000 for best 
single poem will go to one of Judi Benson, David Constantine, Jean Harrison, Robert 
Minhinnick or Alison Prince. 


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3065097.stm

Published: 2003/07/15 01:17:26 GMT




From paul.lake  Wed Jul 16 14:23:48 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:23:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Josephine Jacobsen obit
In-Reply-To: <142.158ad17c.2c46eecf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BB3B0264.5136%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Sorry to hear about Jacobsen's death.  I always thought she was under-rated
as a poet.  Though a native of Baltimore, I never met her.  Wish I had.

Paul Lake



on 7/16/03 1:09 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Josephine Jacobsen, 94, nation's former top poet
> 
> 07/13/03
>> From wire reports
> 
> Cockeysville, Md.- Josephine Jacobsen, a poet, short- story writer and critic
> who held the post that later became that of national poet laureate, died
> Wednesday at 94. 
> 
> Jacobsen's first poem was printed in a children's magazine when she was 10,
> but she did not achieve widespread recognition until her 60s and 70s.
>    
> She was celebrated for elegant, concise phrasing on a wide range of topics
> and in varied forms, which she filled with nature and animal imagery. She
> plumbed questions of identity, interrelatedness and isolation.
> 
> In 1993, Jacobsen received the Shelley Memorial Award from the Poetry Society
> of America and in 1997 was given its highest award, the Robert Frost Medal
> for Lifetime Achievement in Poetry.
> 
> Among other things, the medal honored her generosity in helping younger,
> struggling poets get their work published, a quality considered rare in her
> profession. 
> 
> In 1971, L. Quincy Mumford, the librarian of Congress, named her consultant
> in poetry. She was only the fourth woman to receive the honor, and the first
> in 
> 21 years. Her male predecessors included Robert Frost, Conrad Aiken and, most
> immediately, William Stafford.
> 
> She gained critical attention with her first publication, "Let Each Man
> Remember" (Kaleidograph, 1940), a collage of 15 love sonnets interspersed with
> metaphysical love poems.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From grahamd  Wed Jul 16 15:33:09 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:33:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
Message-ID: <BB3B20B5.3D18%grahamd@ripon.edu>

An interesting and unusual book fell into my hands while I was on the road
recently. It's *Braided Creek*, by Jim Harrison and Ted Kooser (Copper
Canyon 2003).  The subtitle is *A Conversation in Poetry*, and the book
consists of a series of very brief, often epigrammatic poems without any
indication of who wrote what.



From paul  Wed Jul 16 15:57:49 2003
From: paul (Paul C. Howell)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:57:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1605 - Julian Bond
In-Reply-To: <200307161600.h6GG08ST009566@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030716155647.03a8ac50@mail.tbhinc.com>

"(AP)
Republicans appeal "to the dark underside of American culture, to that
minority of Americans who reject democracy and equality," NAACP Chairman
Julian Bond said yesterday at the civil rights group's 94th annual
convention."

Does this mean the Rice-Powell ploy isn't working?




From kellogg  Wed Jul 16 16:11:45 2003
From: kellogg (David Kellogg)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:11:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <BB3B20B5.3D18%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BB3B20B5.3D18%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <27268465.1058371905@rdu57-253-143.nc.rr.com>

Olga Broumas has written two such books of poems with someone else without 
attribution: Sappho's Gymnamsium (with T. Begley) and a book with Jane 
Miller.  Let's see. I think William Stafford and Marvin Bell did a book 
with that structure too, though they might have attributions, I forget. 
And of course there's Tom Mandel and Daniel Davidson's brilliant _Absence 
Sensorium_: a long poem, but with a similar seamlessness and lack of 
attribution.  There must be others.

--On Wednesday, July 16, 2003 3:33 PM -0400 David Graham 
<grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

> An interesting and unusual book fell into my hands while I was on the road
> recently. It's *Braided Creek*, by Jim Harrison and Ted Kooser (Copper
> Canyon 2003).  The subtitle is *A Conversation in Poetry*, and the book
> consists of a series of very brief, often epigrammatic poems without any
> indication of who wrote what.
>
> From the jacket copy:
>
> "When asked about attributions for the individual poems, one of them
> replied, 'Everyone gets tired of this continuing cult of the personality.
> . .  This book is an assertion in favor of poetry and against
> credentials.' "
>
> I can't offhand think of any comparable project in poetry.  Can anyone?
>
> Obviously, the object here is hardly anonymity:  Kooser's and Harrison's
> names (and reputations) are most definitely being used to sell the book.
> And I think it's pretty easy to guess who wrote what, in most cases,
> since their styles are so distinct.  Still, I appreciate the gesture.  In
> blurring individual attributions they are performing a small symbolic
> ritual in favor of poetry itself, just as they suggest--in favor of the
> power of language and imagination rather than simple personality.  They
> illustrate the ancient lyric distinction between the personal and the
> self-absorbed or
> self-displaying.
>
> The individual poems are not equally successful, it almost goes without
> saying.  The book reads rather like a collaborative journal, with a lot of
> back-and-forth banter, frivolity rubbing against profundity, playfulness
> mixing with seriousness, etc.
>
> Here are some excerpts, chosen nearly randomly in order to give some
> impression of the whole:
>
> Surely someone will help
> the mourning mourning dove,
> but who, but who?
>
> A coffin handle
> leaves a lasting impression
> on a hand.
>
> I hope there's time
> for this and that,
> and not just this.
>
> Trust snow to keep a secret.
>
> The old hen scratches
> then looks, scratches then looks.
> My life.
>
> The butterfly's brain,
> the size of a grain of salt,
> guides her to Mexico.
>
> An empty boat
> will volunteer for anything.
>
> So what if women
> no longer smile to see me?
> I smile to see them!
>
> Fifty-two degrees at noon, July 2.
> At the senior citizens' carwash
> all the oldsters try to look vigorous.
>
> I haven't forgotten
> to look in the mirror,
> I just don't
> do it anymore.
>
> What prizes and awards will I get for revealing
> the location of the human soul?  As Nixon said,
> I know how to win the war but I'm not telling.
>
> An old song from my youth:
> "I'm going to live, live, live
> until I die."  Well, perhaps not.
>
> Rowing across the lake
> all the dragonflies are screwing.
> Stop it.  It's Sunday.
>
> Everyone thought I'd die
> in my twenties, thirties, forties, fifties.
> This can't go on forever.
>
> --
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From FanwoodJEL  Wed Jul 16 16:13:16 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:13:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
Message-ID: <9.157a7f6f.2c470bdc@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/16/03 3:33:57 PM, grahamd at ripon.edu writes:


> Still, I appreciate the gesture.? In blurring
> individual attributions they are performing a small symbolic ritual in favor
> of poetry itself, just as they suggest--in favor of the power of language
> and imagination rather than simple personality.? They illustrate the ancient
> lyric distinction between the personal and the self-absorbed or
> self-displaying.
> 
> 

Fiddlesticks. Authorship is not about personality or credentials, it's about 
source, perception, weight of experience. I'm sorry, but source enriches the 
artistic experience. I'll make the argument if anyone really needs to see it. 
Simply stated, it matters, whose language, whose imagination. The self that 
creates is not synonymous with the self absorbed -- the inner poem isn't 
necessarily the inward poem, and the ego-less artist is just so much oxymoron. What I 
mean to say is, if art can synthesize itself, then let it! Nor for that matter 
is the creating self the self displayed. Not even in a self-portrait. Even 
less in a self-portrait. Only art is displayed despite our best efforts to 
presume upon the process, and if the creation, whatever its provenance, displays as 
much what's reflected as absorbed, and absorbs some of that. We ascribe what 
we will, anyway. It's a parlor trick these two are up to -- or have allowed 
themselves to be put up to -- realiant on the guessing game (hey, who do you 
think wrote this line?) which, as you so properly point out, is commercially and 
artistically reliant on the poets' names and artistically reliant on the 
reader's familiarity with the poets' work. As poets, we have more than enough, 
thank you very much, anonymity. It's just too cute for me. Too faux zen. Even a Li 
Po is a Li Po. Plop. 

Jeffrey Levine 
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From antrobin  Wed Jul 16 16:17:44 2003
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:17:44 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <BB3B20B5.3D18%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <000f01c34bd7$54bdc2c0$73391c40@Emily>

David Graham writes:

>I can't offhand think of any comparable project in poetry.  Can anyone?

Yup.  Lots.  Joshua Beckman and Matt Rohrer's "Nice Hat. Thanks." Comes
to mind.

Then, in a slightly different but far more interesting vein, there's
Araki Yasusada's "Doubled Flowering."

Tony






From marcus  Wed Jul 16 17:09:27 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:09:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <9.157a7f6f.2c470bdc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F1586C7.22848.1E7A209@localhost>

On 16 Jul 2003 at 16:13, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
> Fiddlesticks. Authorship is not about personality or credentials, it's about 
> source, perception, weight of experience. I'm sorry, but source enriches the 
> artistic experience. I'll make the argument if anyone really needs to see it. 
> Simply stated, it matters, whose language, whose imagination. The self that 
> creates is not synonymous with the self absorbed -- the inner poem isn't 
> necessarily the inward poem, and the ego-less artist is just so much oxymoron. What I 
> mean to say is, if art can synthesize itself, then let it! Nor for that matter 
> is the creating self the self displayed. Not even in a self-portrait. Even 
> less in a self-portrait. Only art is displayed despite our best efforts to 
> presume upon the process, and if the creation, whatever its provenance, displays as 
> much what's reflected as absorbed, and absorbs some of that. We ascribe what 
> we will, anyway. It's a parlor trick these two are up to -- or have allowed 
> themselves to be put up to -- realiant on the guessing game (hey, who do you 
> think wrote this line?) which, as you so properly point out, is commercially and 
> artistically reliant on the poets' names and artistically reliant on the 
> reader's familiarity with the poets' work. As poets, we have more than enough, 
> thank you very much, anonymity. It's just too cute for me. Too faux zen. Even a Li 
> Po is a Li Po. Plop. 

Just so.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From jvcervantes  Wed Jul 16 19:33:04 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:33:04 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
References: <000f01c34bd7$54bdc2c0$73391c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <3F15E0B0.D65364D4@earthlink.net>

Uh well, there's _Changing the Subject_, by yours truly and Halvard
Johnson, promised from Red Hen Press.

- Jim

Anthony Robinson wrote:
> 
> David Graham writes:
> 
> >I can't offhand think of any comparable project in poetry.  Can anyone?
> 
> Yup.  Lots.  Joshua Beckman and Matt Rohrer's "Nice Hat. Thanks." Comes
> to mind.
> 
> Then, in a slightly different but far more interesting vein, there's
> Araki Yasusada's "Doubled Flowering."
> 
> Tony
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames  Wed Jul 16 21:05:48 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:05:48 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
Message-ID: <142.1590c03f.2c47506c@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/16/03 4:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes:

> Fiddlesticks. Authorship is not about personality or credentials, it's 
about 
>  source, perception, weight of experience. I'm sorry, but source enriches 
the 
> 
>  artistic experience. I'll make the argument if anyone really needs to see 
it.
>  
>  Simply stated, it matters, whose language, whose imagination. The self 
that 
>  creates is not synonymous with the self absorbed -- the inner poem isn't 
>  necessarily the inward poem, and the ego-less artist is just so much 
> oxymoron. 
Jeffrey, I'm somewhat in sympathy with what you say. I too am interested
in what the individual imagination/sensibility has to say. Collaborative art
tends to be, by & large, less compelling and more homogeneous. However, 
there is the New Genre Art (particularly related to Public Art), which 
emphasizes collaboration and demotes the individual artist to a state of anonymity 
for the good 
of the project (or its politcal thrust). A concept I can't disagree with 
completely since the artist (Kahlo, Warhol, Van Gogh) in this century has become 
(abetted by mass media), or has been reduced to (despite his/her obvious 
idiosyncratic merits), mere commodity.
Finnegan



From luap  Wed Jul 16 21:19:31 2003
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 20:19:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <142.1590c03f.2c47506c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307162016590.18246-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

To add my coinage to the discussion, what about online sites that offer
the ability to come up with a pseudonym and publish poetry? I have to
wonder sometimes if some of the so-called 'big names' in modern poetry
lurk on poetry forums, occasionally posting something w/out their 'name'
attached to it to see if they still indeed 'have it' or if people read
them just because of 'who they are' or 'who they were'...

I remember reading somewhere that either Isaac Asimov or Stephen King said
their names were to popular they could puiblish their grocery lists and
have it hit the bestsellers list.

-kpaul


On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/16/03 4:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes:
> 
> > Fiddlesticks. Authorship is not about personality or credentials, it's 
> about 
> >  source, perception, weight of experience. I'm sorry, but source enriches 
> the 
> > 
> >  artistic experience. I'll make the argument if anyone really needs to see 
> it.
> >  
> >  Simply stated, it matters, whose language, whose imagination. The self 
> that 
> >  creates is not synonymous with the self absorbed -- the inner poem isn't 
> >  necessarily the inward poem, and the ego-less artist is just so much 
> > oxymoron. 
> Jeffrey, I'm somewhat in sympathy with what you say. I too am interested
> in what the individual imagination/sensibility has to say. Collaborative art
> tends to be, by & large, less compelling and more homogeneous. However, 
> there is the New Genre Art (particularly related to Public Art), which 
> emphasizes collaboration and demotes the individual artist to a state of anonymity 
> for the good 
> of the project (or its politcal thrust). A concept I can't disagree with 
> completely since the artist (Kahlo, Warhol, Van Gogh) in this century has become 
> (abetted by mass media), or has been reduced to (despite his/her obvious 
> idiosyncratic merits), mere commodity.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From grahamd  Wed Jul 16 21:35:30 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:35:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <9.157a7f6f.2c470bdc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BB3B75A1.3D4D%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I don't suppose I disagree entirely with what you say, Jeffrey.  I called
the Kooser/Harrison book's lack of attribution a gesture, "a small symbolic
ritual in favor of poetry itself," and, as the journalists say, I stand by
my story.  But I could go with "parlor trick" as well, I think.  It's that,
too.  

Ah, but there are things that are important beyond all these fiddlesticks!
And that includes the poetry itself, as you (and Kooser Harrison) seem to
agree.  And, as I can't help noticing, no one has yet commented on the
poetry in this case.

I'm not sure I'm ready to make any argument of all this, but I admit I am
cocking my head skeptically at the thought that "source enriches artistic
experience."  Well, surely so a lot of the time, but hardly necessarily, I'd
say, given the long and splendid career of old Anon.

Thanks to those who mentioned other examples of collaborative collections
without authorial attribution.  The Bell/Stafford book is not one of them,
though, since those individual poems are definitely both addressed and
signed.  Jim C, are you and Hal Johnson omitting names from your individual
poems in your forthcoming book?  If so, I'd be interested in hearing a bit
about what prompted you to this gesture.
-- 
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:13:16 EDT
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser



In a message dated 7/16/03 3:33:57 PM, grahamd at ripon.edu writes:


Still, I appreciate the gesture.? In blurring
individual attributions they are performing a small symbolic ritual in favor
of poetry itself, just as they suggest--in favor of the power of language
and imagination rather than simple personality.? They illustrate the ancient
lyric distinction between the personal and the self-absorbed or
self-displaying.



Fiddlesticks. Authorship is not about personality or credentials, it's about
source, perception, weight of experience. I'm sorry, but source enriches the
artistic experience. I'll make the argument if anyone really needs to see
it. Simply stated, it matters, whose language, whose imagination. The self
that creates is not synonymous with the self absorbed -- the inner poem
isn't necessarily the inward poem, and the ego-less artist is just so much
oxymoron. What I mean to say is, if art can synthesize itself, then let it!
Nor for that matter is the creating self the self displayed. Not even in a
self-portrait. Even less in a self-portrait. Only art is displayed despite
our best efforts to presume upon the process, and if the creation, whatever
its provenance, displays as much what's reflected as absorbed, and absorbs
some of that. We ascribe what we will, anyway. It's a parlor trick these two
are up to -- or have allowed themselves to be put up to -- realiant on the
guessing game (hey, who do you think wrote this line?) which, as you so
properly point out, is commercially and artistically reliant on the poets'
names and artistically reliant on the reader's familiarity with the poets'
work. As poets, we have more than enough, thank you very much, anonymity.
It's just too cute for me. Too faux zen. Even a Li Po is a Li Po. Plop.

Jeffrey Levine 


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From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 17 08:37:34 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:37:34 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
References: <BB3B75A1.3D4D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F16988E.502EDD9@earthlink.net>

David Graham wrote:
> 
> I don't suppose I disagree entirely with what you say, Jeffrey.  I
> called the Kooser/Harrison book's lack of attribution a gesture, "a
> small symbolic ritual in favor of poetry itself," and, as the
> journalists say, I stand by my story.  But I could go with "parlor
> trick" as well, I think.  It's that, too.
> 
> Ah, but there are things that are important beyond all these
> fiddlesticks!  And that includes the poetry itself, as you (and Kooser
> Harrison) seem to agree.  And, as I can't help noticing, no one has
> yet commented on the poetry in this case.

A little tough to do, David, without the book!  But, if the whole is
similar to the samples you posted, then I'd call it aphoristic . . .
supershallowaphoristic. 

> 
> snip
> 
> 
> Thanks to those who mentioned other examples of collaborative
> collections without authorial attribution.  The Bell/Stafford book is
> not one of them, though, since those individual poems are definitely
> both addressed and signed.  Jim C, are you and Hal Johnson omitting
> names from your individual poems in your forthcoming book?  If so, I'd
> be interested in hearing a bit about what prompted you to this
> gesture.

No definitive answer since after two years it's not even in galley stage
- I think the press is having troubles and our book is low in the
priorities.  But, speaking for myself (Hal being on vacation in Maine,
though possibly lurking), I'd not be averse to dropping names from
individual poems.  My ego left several years ago with all its baggage. 
I do get a postcard now and then.

- Jim



From marcus  Thu Jul 17 09:13:01 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:13:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <BB3B75A1.3D4D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <9.157a7f6f.2c470bdc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F16689D.29329.2D2368@localhost>

On 16 Jul 2003 at 21:35, David Graham wrote:
> ...  I'm not sure I'm ready to make any argument of all this, but I admit I am
> cocking my head skeptically at the thought that "source enriches artistic
> experience."  Well, surely so a lot of the time, but hardly necessarily, I'd
> say, given the long and splendid career of old Anon.

Old Anon did some pretty raw stuff, occasionally leavened by a good 
bit here or there. No doubt a lot of Old Anon's best stuff was 
polished by many hands and that's why it's Anon instead of located in 
one imagination with a couple dates attached.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From hruggier  Thu Jul 17 09:40:35 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:40:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
References: <BB3B75A1.3D4D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F16A752.62601006@localnet.com>

I really, really liked the book - it has a "renga" feel to it - a
collaborative Japanese form where the authorship alternates.  The
Japanese though kept track of the author of each verse.

How sharp must be the fletcher's knife
to split a feather
and leave in both halves flight.

But the seventeen-year cicada
has only one syllable.

and back to the who's evil stuff:

Republicans think that all over the world
darker-skinned people are having more fun
than they are.  It's largely true.


Some really good stuff in this book.

David Graham wrote:

> I don't suppose I disagree entirely with what you say, Jeffrey.  I
> called the Kooser/Harrison book's lack of attribution a gesture, "a
> small symbolic ritual in favor of poetry itself," and, as the
> journalists say, I stand by my story.  But I could go with "parlor
> trick" as well, I think.  It's that, too.
>
> Ah, but there are things that are important beyond all these
> fiddlesticks!  And that includes the poetry itself, as you (and Kooser
> Harrison) seem to agree.  And, as I can't help noticing, no one has
> yet commented on the poetry in this case.
>
> I'm not sure I'm ready to make any argument of all this, but I admit I
> am cocking my head skeptically at the thought that "source enriches
> artistic experience."  Well, surely so a lot of the time, but hardly
> necessarily, I'd say, given the long and splendid career of old Anon.
>
> Thanks to those who mentioned other examples of collaborative
> collections without authorial attribution.  The Bell/Stafford book is
> not one of them, though, since those individual poems are definitely
> both addressed and signed.  Jim C, are you and Hal Johnson omitting
> names from your individual poems in your forthcoming book?  If so, I'd
> be interested in hearing a bit about what prompted you to this
> gesture.
> --
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
>      From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com
>      Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>      Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:13:16 EDT
>      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
>
>
>
>      In a message dated 7/16/03 3:33:57 PM, grahamd at ripon.edu
>      writes:
>
>
>      Still, I appreciate the gesture.  In blurring
>      individual attributions they are performing a small symbolic
>      ritual in favor
>      of poetry itself, just as they suggest--in favor of the
>      power of language
>      and imagination rather than simple personality.  They
>      illustrate the ancient
>      lyric distinction between the personal and the self-absorbed
>      or
>      self-displaying.
>
>
>
>      Fiddlesticks. Authorship is not about personality or
>      credentials, it's about source, perception, weight of
>      experience. I'm sorry, but source enriches the artistic
>      experience. I'll make the argument if anyone really needs to
>      see it. Simply stated, it matters, whose language, whose
>      imagination. The self that creates is not synonymous with
>      the self absorbed -- the inner poem isn't necessarily the
>      inward poem, and the ego-less artist is just so much
>      oxymoron. What I mean to say is, if art can synthesize
>      itself, then let it! Nor for that matter is the creating
>      self the self displayed. Not even in a self-portrait. Even
>      less in a self-portrait. Only art is displayed despite our
>      best efforts to presume upon the process, and if the
>      creation, whatever its provenance, displays as much what's
>      reflected as absorbed, and absorbs some of that. We ascribe
>      what we will, anyway. It's a parlor trick these two are up
>      to -- or have allowed themselves to be put up to -- realiant
>      on the guessing game (hey, who do you think wrote this
>      line?) which, as you so properly point out, is commercially
>      and artistically reliant on the poets' names and
>      artistically reliant on the reader's familiarity with the
>      poets' work. As poets, we have more than enough, thank you
>      very much, anonymity. It's just too cute for me. Too faux
>      zen. Even a Li Po is a Li Po. Plop.
>
>      Jeffrey Levine
>
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From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 17 09:38:46 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 06:38:46 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
References: <9.157a7f6f.2c470bdc@aol.com> <3F16689D.29329.2D2368@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F16A6E6.922DE350@earthlink.net>


Marcus Bales wrote:
> 
> On 16 Jul 2003 at 21:35, David Graham wrote:
> > ...  I'm not sure I'm ready to make any argument of all this, but I admit I am
> > cocking my head skeptically at the thought that "source enriches artistic
> > experience."  Well, surely so a lot of the time, but hardly necessarily, I'd
> > say, given the long and splendid career of old Anon.
> 
> Old Anon did some pretty raw stuff, occasionally leavened by a good
> bit here or there. No doubt a lot of Old Anon's best stuff was
> polished by many hands and that's why it's Anon instead of located in
> one imagination with a couple dates attached.

And, Kofi Anon, once ostracized by the Court of Emperor Shrub for his
dissonant narratives, is now being courted by same because it's time to rhyme.

- an observer



From marcus  Thu Jul 17 09:55:33 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:55:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <3F16A6E6.922DE350@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F167295.2186.54121B@localhost>

> > On 16 Jul 2003 at 21:35, David Graham wrote:
> > > ...  I'm not sure I'm ready to make any argument of all this, but I admit I am
> > > cocking my head skeptically at the thought that "source enriches artistic
> > > experience."  Well, surely so a lot of the time, but hardly necessarily, I'd
> > > say, given the long and splendid career of old Anon.

Marcus Bales:
> > Old Anon did some pretty raw stuff, occasionally leavened by a good
> > bit here or there. No doubt a lot of Old Anon's best stuff was
> > polished by many hands and that's why it's Anon instead of located in
> > one imagination with a couple dates attached.

Jim Cervantes: 
> And, Kofi Anon, once ostracized by the Court of Emperor Shrub for his
> dissonant narratives, is now being courted by same because it's time to rhyme.

Ah, jealousy, Jim!  You disparage what you cannot do.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From FanwoodJEL  Thu Jul 17 11:07:29 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:07:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
Message-ID: <180.1d4e7d10.2c4815b1@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/16/03 9:37:07 PM, grahamd at ripon.edu writes:


> And, as I can't help noticing, no one has yet commented on the poetry in 
> this case.
> 
> I'm not sure I'm ready to make any argument of all this, but I admit I am 
> cocking my head skeptically at the thought that "source enriches artistic 
> experience." ?Well, surely so a lot of the time, but hardly necessarily, I'd say, 
> given the long and splendid career of old Anon. ?
> 
David, I've not seen the whole book. From the snippet you sent, I've not much 
to say about the work as poetry. It seems to me there are a few clever lines 
in the aphoristic sense. For me, the exchanges suffer as a result of the very 
limitation proposed as mild salvation: there are two creative minds at work, 
and I want the intellectual, dramatic and aesthetic tension that's lost when 
the two voices are clearly antiphonal. It would work better for me if I could 
hear Kooser's bright tenor sax out of one speaker, and Harrison's -- what? -- 
guitar? banjo? from the other. The guessing game feels intrusive and ultimately 
spoils the fun and the art. That said, I think there is, in fact, something 
inherently interesting in the nature of poetic exchanges. If improvisatory in 
feel, and if the improvisation is captivating, then this sort of line trading or 
idea trading can be quite satisfying, even fascinating. Improvisation is 
nothing if not play, and I don't mean to be at all dismissive about that word -- 
as in wordplay or even playfulness. I think, rather, that the 
imaginative/associative leap is atavistically linked to the notion of play -- the leap in all 
its forms -- poetry, painting, philosophy, religion, even (and especially) 
science. We learn to make these leaps when, very young, we acquire language. This 
is why a classroom of first or second graders write wonderfully surrealistic 
poetry. As for old Anon., we're in very different terrain when we juxtapose the 
inability to devolve an historic attribution with waters willfully muddied. 
When we're talking about larger anonymous works -- whole poems, for example -- 
we (or I, anyway) -- tend to create a persona for the writer. Isn't this 
exactly what we do with Shakespeare, whoever he was? (And I'm not presupposing a 
single author.) Shakespeare aside, with poem-length works by Old Anon., I tend 
to fill in the blanks . . . this Old Anon, the one who has such-and-such sorts 
of sensibilities, favors this sort of syntax, tone, or has a coherent body of 
concerns. I like this Anon, and I'm not c

Jeffrey 
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From FanwoodJEL  Thu Jul 17 11:22:54 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:22:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
Message-ID: <95.30419b4f.2c48194e@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/16/03 9:06:39 PM, JforJames at aol.com writes:


> Collaborative art
> tends to be, by & large, less compelling and more homogeneous. However,
> there is the New Genre Art (particularly related to Public Art), which
> emphasizes collaboration and demotes the individual artist to a state of 
> anonymity
> for the good
> of the project (or its politcal thrust). A concept I can't disagree with
> completely since the artist (Kahlo, Warhol, Van Gogh) in this century has 
> become
> (abetted by mass media), or has been reduced to (despite his/her obvious
> idiosyncratic merits), mere commodity.
> Finnegan
> 
Jim,

I'm certain you're right in the sense that anything marketed in a market 
economy gets reduced to mere commodity -- art/soup -- as Warhol made plain. 
Strikes me as all the more compelling then to hold on to identity as tenaciously as 
ever we can. We can already buy books by the pound, paintings by the sheet. 
Stephen King freely admits (rather smugly, I think) that even his grocery list 
would be an instant best seller. Harry Potter is a brand name, and so for that 
matter is Billy Collins (though I do not here lump them). Splat a dozen Monets 
on a calendar and you have an instant seller. Oh, how beautiful . . . water 
lilies! Well . . . Monet wasn't the slightest bit interested in beauty or, for 
that matter, water lilies. He was interested in light, in how we perceive, in 
how light reflects off of a particular surfaces and how our eyes re
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From FanwoodJEL  Thu Jul 17 11:32:59 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:32:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
Message-ID: <d.15134e42.2c481bab@aol.com>

oops . . . having trouble with a new laptop . . . 


As I was saying, Monet was interested in light, in how we perceive, in how 
light reflects off of a particular surface and in how our eyes respond to that 
light. So there's a for instance, and my point is this: it magnifies and 
enriches the experience of art -- many times over -- if you know something of the 
source and what the source is/was about. You get context. You access intent. 
Holds true for Van Gogh, Kahlo, or any other artist -- Olga Broumas or James 
Finnegan -- otherwise you might as well publish poems or paintings on boxes of 
Wheaties. And even if you did, it would still be art if presented as art, more 
satisfying (to me, anyway) if attributed. 

Jeffrey Levine
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From anny.ballardini  Thu Jul 17 13:28:56 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:28:56 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] storm
Message-ID: <000c01c34c88$e73e7840$c51c2dd5@anny>

the storm is coming 

engulfing trees 

green masses displaced

every single leaf joins in a muffled shhhheeeeessss 

louder than traffic

birds-people fast disappear

the light clicks down to darker tones 

step by step as if mechanically drawn

 

an intense luminous glow hovering from the roundness of the sky

energies abound in this heat / wind / rain to come

my eyes see what is not here

in my body the desire to escape from gravity

 

thunders bring back to a primitive fear and I bend like the branches of an oak

shut the windows --- switch off the pc / a spasm gripping my stomach

 

Relief - I can breathe

thank you god I fell blessed again

 

in this sudden November /// the thick taste of books to be read by a blond child

is brought back - with the fire - in the water

 

 
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From jvcervantes  Fri Jul 18 10:38:44 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:38:44 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] tragic news: Komunyakaa
Message-ID: <3F180673.EDAC517D@earthlink.net>

In Final Hours, Despair Defeated Poet

By David A. Fahrenthold  and Simone Weichselbaum

  A prize-winning poet who used verse to describe her experiences as a child
and as an Indian immigrant was identified by D.C. police yesterday as the
woman who apparently slashed the left wrist of her 2-year-old son and her
own Wednesday and then died with him in a pool of blood.

Reetika Vazirani, 40, and Jehan Vazirani Komunyakaa were found lying next
to each other in the dining room of a house in the Chevy Chase section of
Washington, where Vazirani was house-sitting.

Police called the deaths an apparent murder-suicide, but no official ruling
has been made. Investigators found a note with references to the boy's
father, Pulitzer-Prize-winning poet Yusef Komunyakaa, according to sources
familiar with the investigation.

Komunyakaa could not be reached yesterday, and relatives in the area would
not comment, said one woman who would not identify herself at a family home
in Silver Spring.

Neighbors and friends said there had been signs that Vazirani was
distraught. The day before the bodies were found, they said, she sought a
meeting with a neighborhood priest and borrowed a Bible from a neighbor.

Vazirani and her son were staying for the summer in a three-story house in
the 3600 block of Quesada Street NW. It is the Washington home of novelist
Howard Norman and poet Jane Shore, friends of Vazirani's, who are spending
the summer at their home in Vermont.

Denise King-Miller, a friend, said Vazirani had spoken to her about
personal problems, some involving her relationship with Komunyakaa, a
Princeton University professor.

But King-Miller said Vazirani had come to dinner Monday and seemed
upbeat -- talking about her son's first time playing in a sandbox and about
washing sand off him. "Her conversation with me was really about how she was
going to move forward," King-Miller said.

On Tuesday, Vazirani went to the office of Percival D'Silva, a priest at
the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament, across the street from the home.
Yesterday, D'Silva said that Vazirani was a striking and youthful-looking
woman  and that she had not visited him before. She told him that she had
been in a Baptist prayer group in Williamsburg, he said. "She was
distraught," D'Silva said. He said he would not give more details about the
meeting.

On the same day, Vazirani visited a couple next door and "matter-of-factly"
asked to borrow a Bible, said Frank Nash, the couple's son. Nash said his
parents were "feeling remorse that they didn't know that she was trying to
reach out."

Before 8 a.m. Wednesday, King-Miller said, Vazirani left her a voice mail
saying, "I think I'm going to hurt myself." King-Miller said she got the
message later and began calling Vazirani every hour but got no answer.

Also that day, according to a police source, Vazirani left a voice mail for
another friend, saying, "I'm having a kind of emergency now, and I
wanted to
make sure you could let yourself in." That friend visited the house before
4:30 p.m. and found the bodies lying parallel to one another on the floor
with two large kitchen knives nearby. Mother and son appeared to have been
dead for hours, one source familiar with the scene said.

Shore said yesterday by phone that her family was still in Vermont and knew
little about what had happened in their Washington home.

"We feel just horrible," she said. "Just a horrible thing."

Vazirani's editor described her as a warm, intelligent person whose poems
explored the two worlds that immigrants inhabit. Her work was published in
several poetry journals in addition to her books, and she was active in
creative writing circles. She won the 2003 Anisfield-Wolf Book Award for her
second book, "World Hotel," and a Barnard New Women Poets Prize for her
first, "White Elephants," published in 1996.

According to friends, Vazirani came to this country from India when she was
about 6, settling in Silver Spring. Her father, an oral surgeon, was a
faculty member and an assistant dean at the Howard University College of
Dentistry.

Vazirani has written that she began writing poetry when she was 25 and
spent eight years working on her first book.

"She's truly an international, lyrical poet . . . an accomplished lyrical
storyteller," said Sam Hamill, whose Copper Canyon Press published
Vazirani's second book. "She wrote about being in both cultures and between
both cultures."

Samples of her poetry describe life in India and in the United States and
the impact of immigration on her family. In one poem, "Memory I," she wrote,
"He grew strange, my father, caught between two accents and two worlds."

"She definitely was one of the writers to watch," said E. Ethelbert Miller,
King-Miller's husband and the director of the African American Resource
Center at Howard University. "She was really representing . . . the new
Indian voice, in dealing with the issue of finding one's place, or home"
after immigration.

Vazirani was a writer-in-residence last year at the College of William and
Mary in Williamsburg. Later this year, she and Komunyakaa were to join the
faculty at Emory University in Atlanta.

"This is a terrible loss for all of us at Emory, as well as the world of
poetry," said Jim Grimsley, director of the university's creative writing
program.

King-Miller said: "It's just sad, you know. She was such a beautiful
spirit. It's just a loss to the world."



Staff researcher Bobbye Pratt and staff writer S. Mitra Kalita contributed
to this report.


? 2003 The Washington Post Company




From paul.lake  Fri Jul 18 11:28:03 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:28:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA Boost
Message-ID: <BB3D7C33.514F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>



???NEA boost 
????A group called the Association of Performing Arts Presenters says it is
"thrilled" with the 225-200 passage of a House amendment to increase funding
for the National Endowment for the Arts.
???? The amendment was sponsored by Reps. Louise M. Slaughter, New York
Democrat; Norm Dicks, Washington Democrat; Christopher Shays, Connecticut
Republican; and Jim Leach, Iowa Republican.
????"While we await passage of the final bill, this amendment demonstrates
Congress' firm commitment and understanding of the importance of the arts
and the work of the NEA," Sandra Gibson, president and chief executive of
the Association of Performing Arts Presenters, said in a prepared statement.

*

Good luck with the new funds, Dana.  

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From marcus  Fri Jul 18 11:55:00 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:55:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA Boost
In-Reply-To: <BB3D7C33.514F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F17E014.23239.1C8DC6@localhost>

> ???NEA boost 
> ????A group called the Association of Performing Arts Presenters says it is
> "thrilled" with the 225-200 passage of a House amendment to increase funding
> for the National Endowment for the Arts.
> ???? The amendment was sponsored by Reps. Louise M. Slaughter, New York
> Democrat; Norm Dicks, Washington Democrat; ...<<

The Slaughter Dicks Law?

Jeez.  

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com







From jvcervantes  Sat Jul 19 19:39:54 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:39:54 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4
References: <BAF19EFD.2AD1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F19D6C9.427CD44B@earthlink.net>

just in case my cookies got burned or I got unsubscribed somehow



From FanwoodJEL  Sat Jul 19 20:31:46 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:31:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4
Message-ID: <103.32c737eb.2c4b3cf2@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/19/2003 7:41:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:

> just in case my cookies got burned or I got unsubscribed somehow
> 

shhh . . . we're all busy searching for weapons of mass destruction . . .

jl
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From jvcervantes  Sat Jul 19 21:35:01 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:35:01 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4
References: <103.32c737eb.2c4b3cf2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F19F1C6.EF32759@earthlink.net>

FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:

> shhh . . . we're all busy searching for weapons of mass destruction . . .

. . . psst . . . over there . . . the oasis one kilometer west of the
Iranian border . . . no . . . wait . . . they're not finished burying
them yet . . .

post-operative agent x4325

10-4



From tadrichards  Sat Jul 19 23:16:47 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:16:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4
References: <103.32c737eb.2c4b3cf2@aol.com> <3F19F1C6.EF32759@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002301c34e6d$5bfa54c0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

I suspect a French connection...look in the rocker panels,


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4


> FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
>
> > shhh . . . we're all busy searching for weapons of mass destruction . .
.
>
> . . . psst . . . over there . . . the oasis one kilometer west of the
> Iranian border . . . no . . . wait . . . they're not finished burying
> them yet . . .
>
> post-operative agent x4325
>
> 10-4
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From anny.ballardini  Sun Jul 20 04:55:11 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:55:11 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4
References: <103.32c737eb.2c4b3cf2@aol.com> <3F19F1C6.EF32759@earthlink.net> <002301c34e6d$5bfa54c0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <006101c34e9c$a18330a0$2e607550@anny>

You don't know but I do, the guilty ones are the Italians, never trust them,
I have been preaching it around for centuries by now.

From: "TheOldMole" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> I suspect a French connection...look in the rocker panels,
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4
>
>
> > FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > shhh . . . we're all busy searching for weapons of mass destruction .
.
> .
> >
> > . . . psst . . . over there . . . the oasis one kilometer west of the
> > Iranian border . . . no . . . wait . . . they're not finished burying
> > them yet . . .
> >
> > post-operative agent x4325
> >
> > 10-4
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From jvcervantes  Sun Jul 20 11:47:45 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 08:47:45 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
Message-ID: <3F1AB9A1.E440328@earthlink.net>

One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect. 
Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
these things.

- Jim



From gmguddi  Sun Jul 20 11:55:35 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:55:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
In-Reply-To: <3F1AB9A1.E440328@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030720104947.045f0e28@mail.ilstu.edu>

It is not Elijah Butler who is after my subscription or acquiescence to his 
wares or the wiring of my software -- but several companies who want to 
increase the size of my penis or allow it to stand more rampantly, stiff as 
the tractor's tire, via this or that new Viagra. I do not need my penis 
size increased, thank you, being satisfied with it, and am daily deluged by 
those who want to increase my insurance, decrease my debt, allow me to see 
the firmest nipples of the most petite of Asian womens. If Elijah Butler 
rings his bell in my inboxes, I will send along your regards, Jim. gg

At 08:47 AM 7/20/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
>One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
>Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
>and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
>all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
>not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect.
>Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
>it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
>subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
>these things.
>
>- Jim
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From gmguddi  Sun Jul 20 12:13:12 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:13:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Chomsky on the Use of Language to Persuade and Control
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030720111230.012fee28@mail.ilstu.edu>

[from the July/Aug issue of Z Magazine]

Collateral Language
An Interview With Noam Chomsky

David Barsamian

------------------------------------

Noam Chomsky is Institute Professor in the Department of Linguistics and
Philosophy at MIT. He is the author of scores of books-his latest are
Power and Terror and Middle East Illusions. His book 9-11 was an
international bestseller.

BARSAMIAN: In recent years, the Pentagon, and then the media, have
adopted this term "collateral damage" to describe the death of
civilians. Talk about the role of language in shaping and forming
people's understanding of events.

CHOMSKY: Well, it's as old as history. It has nothing much to do with
language. Language is the way we interact and communicate, so,
naturally, the means of communication and the conceptual background
that's behind it, which is more important, are used to try to shape
attitudes and opinions and induce conformity and subordination. Not
surprisingly, it was created in the more democratic societies.

The first coordinated propaganda ministry, called the Ministry of
Information, was in Britain during World War I. It had the task, as they
put it, of controlling the mind of the world. What they were
particularly concerned with was the mind of America and, more
specifically, the mind of American intellectuals. They thought if they
could convince American intellectuals of the nobility of the British war
effort, then American intellectuals could succeed in driving the
basically pacifist population of the United States, which didn't want to
have anything to do with European wars, rightly, into a fit of
fanaticism and hysteria, which would get them to join the war. Britain
needed U.S. backing, so Britain had its Ministry of Information aimed
primarily at American opinion and opinion leaders. The Wilson
administration reacted by setting up the first state propaganda agency
here, called the Committee on Public Information.

It succeeded brilliantly, mainly with liberal American intellectuals,
people of the John Dewey circle, who actually took pride in the fact
that for the first time in history, according to their picture, a
wartime fanaticism was created, and not by military leaders and
politicians but by the more responsible, serious members of the
community, namely, thoughtful intellectuals. And they did organize a
campaign of propaganda, which within a few months did succeed in turning
a relatively pacifist population into raving anti-German fanatics who
wanted to destroy everything German. It reached the point where the
Boston Symphony Orchestra couldn't play Bach. The country was driven
into hysteria.

The members of Wilson's propaganda agency included people like Edward
Bernays, who became the guru of the public relations industry, and
Walter Lippmann, the leading public intellectual of the 20th century,
the most respected media figure. They very explicitly drew from that
experience. If you look at their writings in the 1920s, they said, We
have learned from this that you can control the public mind, you can
control attitudes and opinions. That's where Lippmann said, "We can
manufacture consent by the means of propaganda." Bernays said, "The more
intelligent members of the community can drive the population into
whatever they want" by what he called "engineering of consent." It's the
"essence of democracy," he said.

It also led to the rise of the public relations industry. It's
interesting to look at the thinking in the 1920s, when it got started.
This was the period of Taylorism in industry, when workers were being
trained to become robots, every motion controlled. It created highly
efficient industry, with human beings turned into automata. The
Bolsheviks were very impressed with it, too. They tried to duplicate it.
In fact, they tried throughout the world.But the thought-control experts
realized that you could not only have what was called on-job control but
also off-job control. It's their phrase. Control them off job by
inducing a philosophy of futility, focusing people on the superficial
things of life, like fashionable consumption, and basically get them out
of our hair. Let the people who are supposed to run the show do it
without any interference from the mass of the population, who have no
business in the public arena. From that come enormous industries,
ranging from advertising to universities, all committed very consciously
to the conception that you must control attitudes and opinions because
the people are just too dangerous.

It's particularly striking that it developed in the more democratic
societies. They tried to duplicate it in Germany and Bolshevik Russia
and South Africa and elsewhere. But it was always quite explicitly a
mostly American model. There is a good reason for that. If you can
control people by force, it's not so important to control what they
think and feel. But if you lose the capacity to control people by force,
it becomes more necessary to control attitudes and opinions.

That brings us right up to the present. By now the public is no longer
willing to accept state propaganda agencies, so the Reagan Office of
Public Diplomacy was declared illegal and had to go in roundabout ways.
What took over instead was private tyrannies, basically, corporate
systems, which play the role of controlling opinion and attitudes, not
taking orders from the government, but closely linked to it, of course.
That's our contemporary system. Extremely self-conscious. You don't have
to speculate much about what they're doing because they're kind enough
to tell you in industry publications and also in the academic
literature.

So you go to, say, the 1930s, perhaps the founder of a good bit of
modern political science. A liberal Wilsonian, Harold Lasswell, in 1933
wrote an article called "Propaganda" in the Encyclopedia of Social
Sciences, a major publication, in which the message was, "We should not
[all of these are quotes, incidentally] succumb to democratic dogmatisms
about men being the best judges of their own interests." They're not, we
are. And since people are too stupid and ignorant to understand their
best interests, for their own benefit-because we're great
humanitarians-we must marginalize and control them. The best means is
propaganda. There is nothing negative about propaganda, he said. It's as
neutral as a pump handle. You can use it for good or for evil. And since
we're noble, wonderful people, we'll use it for good, to ensure that the
stupid, ignorant masses remain marginalized and separated from any
decision-making capacity.

The Leninist doctrines are approximately the same. There are very close
similarities. The Nazis also picked it up. If you read Mein Kampf,
Hitler was very impressed with Anglo-American propaganda. He argued, not
without reason, that that's what won World War I and vowed that next
time around the Germans would be ready, too, and developed their own
propaganda systems modeled on the democracies. The Russians tried it,
but it was too crude to be effective. South Africa used it; others,
right up to the present. But the real forefront is the United States,
because it's the most free and democratic society, and it's just much
more important to control attitudes and opinions.

You can read it in the New York Times. They ran an interesting article
about Carl Rove, the president's manager-basically his minder, the one
who teaches him what to say and do. It describes what Carl Rove is doing
now. He was not directly involved in the war planning, but neither was
Bush. This was in the hands of other people. But his goal, he says, is
to present the president as a powerful wartime leader, aimed at the next
presidential election, so that the Republicans can push through their
domestic agenda, which is what he concentrates on, which means tax
cuts-they say for the economy, but they mean for the rich-tax cuts and
other programs which he doesn't bother enumerating, but which are
designed to benefit an extremely small sector of the ultra-wealthy and
privileged and will have the effect of harming the mass of the
population.  But more significant than that-it's not outlined in the
article-is to try to destroy the institutional basis for social support
systems, try to eliminate things like schools and Social Security and
anything that is based on the conception that people have to have some
concern for one another. That's a horrible idea, which has to be driven
out of people's minds. The idea that you should have sympathy and
solidarity, you should care whether the disabled widow across town is
able to eat, that has to be driven out of people's minds.

Clearly, there is a huge gap on the Iraq war between U.S. public opinion
and the rest of the world. Do you attribute that to propaganda?

There is just no question about it. The campaign about Iraq took off
last September. This is so obvious it's even discussed in mainstream
publications, like the chief political analyst for UPI, Martin Sieff,
has a long article describing how it was done. In September, which
happened to be the opening of the midterm congressional campaign, that's
when the drumbeat of wartime propaganda began. It had a couple of
constant themes. One big lie was that Iraq was an imminent threat to the
security of the United States. We have got to stop them now or they're
going to destroy us tomorrow. The second big lie was that Iraq was
behind September 11. Nobody says it straight out; it's kind of
insinuated.

Take a look at the polls. They reflected the propaganda very directly.
The propaganda is distributed by the media. They don't make it up, they
just distribute it. You can attribute it to high government officials or
whatever you like. But the campaign was reflected very quickly in the
polls. By September and since then, roughly 60 percent, oscillating
around that, of the population believes that Iraq is a threat to our
security. Congress, if you look at the declaration of October, when they
authorized the president to use force, said Iraq is a threat to the
security of the United States. By now about half the population, maybe
more by now, believes that Iraq was responsible for September 11, that
Iraqis were on the planes, that they are planning new ones.

There is no one else in the world that believes any of this; there is no
country where Iraq is regarded as a threat to their security. Kuwait and
Iran, which were both invaded by Iraq, don't regard Iraq as a threat to
their security. Iraq is the weakest country in the region, and as a
result of the sanctions, which have killed hundreds of thousands of
people-about probably two-thirds of the population is on the edge of
starvation-the country has the weakest economy and the weakest military
force in the region. Its economy and its military-force expenditures are
about a third those of Kuwait, which has 10 percent of its population,
and well below others. Of course, everybody in the region knows that
there is a superpower there, offshore U.S. military base, Israel, which
has hundreds of nuclear weapons and massive armed forces and totally
dominates anything.

But only in the United States is there fear or any of these beliefs. You
can trace the growth of the beliefs to the propaganda. It's interesting
that the United States is so susceptible to this. There is a background,
a cultural background, which is interesting. But whatever the reasons
are for it, the United States happens to be a very frightened country by
comparative standards. Levels of fear here of almost everything, crime,
aliens, you pick it, are just off the spectrum. You can argue, you can
inquire into the reasons, but the background is there.

What is it that makes it susceptible to propaganda?

That's a good question I don't say it's more susceptible to propaganda;
it's more susceptible to fear. It's a frightened country. The reasons
for this-I don't, frankly, understand them, but they're there, and they
go way back in American history. It probably has to do with conquest of
the continent, where you had to exterminate the native population;
slavery, where you had to control a population that was regarded as
dangerous, because you never knew when they were going to turn on you.
It may just be a reflection of the enormous security. The security of
the United States is beyond anyone else. The United States controls the
hemisphere, it controls both oceans, it controls the opposite sides of
both oceans, never been threatened. The last time the U.S. was
threatened was the War of 1812. Since then it just conquers others. And
somehow this engenders a sense that somebody is going to come after us.
So the country ends up being very frightened.

There is a reason why Carl Rove is the most important person in the
administration. He is the public relations expert in charge of crafting
the images. So you can drive through the domestic agendas, carry out the
international policies by frightening people and creating the impression
that a powerful leader is going to save you from imminent destruction.
The Times virtually says it because it's very hard to keep hidden. It is
second nature.

One of the new lexical constructions that I'd like you to comment on is
"embedded journalists."

That's an interesting one. It is interesting that journalists are
willing to accept it. No honest journalist would be willing to describe
himself or herself as "embedded." To say "I'm an embedded journalist" is
to say "I'm a government propagandist." But it's accepted. And it helps
implant the conception that anything we do is right and just; so
therefore, if you're embedded in an American unit, you're
objective.Actually, the same thing showed up, in some ways even more
dramatically, in the Peter Arnett case. Peter Arnett is an experienced,
respected journalist with a lot of achievements to his credit. He's
hated here precisely for that reason. The same reason Robert Fisk is
hated.

Fisk being British, Arnett is originally from New Zealand.

Fisk is by far the most experienced and respected Middle East
journalist. He's been there forever, he's done excellent work, he knows
the region, he's a terrific reporter. He's despised here. You barely
ever see a word of his. If he's mentioned, he's denounced somehow. The
reason is he's just too independent. He won't be an embedded journalist.
Peter Arnett is condemned because he gave an interview on Iraqi
television. Is anybody condemned for giving an interview on U.S.
television? No, that's wonderful.

The attack on Afghanistan in October 2001 generated a couple of these
interesting terms, and you've commented on them. One was the Operation
Enduring Freedom and the other is "unlawful combatant." Truly an
innovation in international jurisprudence.

It's an innovation since the post-war period. After World War II there
was a relatively new framework of international law established,
including the Geneva Conventions. And they do not permit any such
concept as enemy combatant in the way it's used here. You can have
prisoners of war, but there is no new category. Actually, it's an old
category, pre-World War II, when you were allowed to do just about
anything. But under the Geneva conventions, which were established to
criminalize formally the crimes of the Nazis, this was changed. So
prisoners of war are supposed to have special status. The Bush
administration, with the cooperation of the media and the courts, is
going back to the pre-World War II period, when there was no serious
framework of international law dealing with crimes against humanity and
crimes of war and is declaring not only to carry out aggressive war, but
also to classify people it bombs and captures as some new category who
are entitled to no rights.

They have gone well beyond that. The Administration has now claimed the
right to take people here, including American citizens, to place them in
confinement indefinitely without access to families and lawyers, and to
keep them there with no charges until the president decides that the war
against terror, or whatever he wants to call it, is over. That's unheard
of. And it's been to some extent accepted by the courts. And they're, in
fact, going beyond the new, what's sometimes called PATRIOT 2 Act, which
is so far not ratified. It's inside the Justice Department, but it was
leaked. By now there are a couple of articles by law professors and
others about it in the press. It's astonishing. They're claiming the
right to remove citizenship, the fundamental right, if the Attorney
General infers-they don't have to have any evidence-just infers that the
person is involved somehow in actions that might be harmful to the
United States. You have to go back to totalitarian states to find
anything like this. An enemy combatant is one. The treatment of
people-what's going on in Guantanamo is a gross violation of the most
elementary principles of international humanitarian law since World War
II, that is, since these crimes were formally criminalized in reaction
to the Nazis.

What do you make of British Prime Minister Tony Blair being quoted on
"Nightline" on March 31 saying, "This is not an invasion."

Tony Blair is a good propaganda agent for the United States: He's
articulate, sentences fall together, apparently people like the way he
looks. He's following a position that Britain has taken,
self-consciously, since the end of World War II. During World War II,
Britain recognized-we have plenty of internal documents about it-what
was obvious; Britain had been the world-dominant power and it was not
going to be after World War II-the U.S. was going to be. Britain had to
make a choice: Is it going to be just another country, or is it going to
be what they called a junior partner of the United States? It accepted
the role of junior partner. And that's what it's been since then.
Britain has been kicked in the face over and over again in the most
disgraceful way and they sit there quietly and take it and say, "Okay,
we will be the junior partner. We will bring to what's called the
coalition our experience of centuries of brutalizing and murdering
foreign people. We're good at that." That's the British role. It's
disgraceful.

Often at the talks you give, there is a question that's always asked,
and that is, "What should I do?" This is what you hear in American
audiences.

You're right, it's American audiences. You never hear it in the Third
World.

Why not?

Because when you go to Turkey or Colombia or Brazil or somewhere else,
they don't ask you, "What should I do?" They tell you what they're
doing. It's only in highly privileged cultures that people ask, "What
should I do?" We have every option open to us. None of the problems that
are faced by intellectuals in Turkey or campesinos in Brazil or anything
like that. We can do anything. But what people here are trained to
believe is, we have to have something we can do that will be easy, that
will work very fast, and then we can go back to our ordinary lives. And
it doesn't work that way. You want to do something, you're going to have
to be dedicated, committed, at it day after day. You know exactly what
it is: it's educational programs, it's organizing, it's activism. That's
the way things change. You want something that's going to be a magic key
that will enable you to go back to watching television tomorrow? It's
not there.

You were an active and early dissident in the 1960s opposing U.S.
intervention in Indochina. You have now this perspective of what was
going on then and what is going on now. Describe how dissent has evolved
in the United States.

Actually, there is another article in the New York Times that describes
how the professors are antiwar activists, but the students aren't. Not
like it used to be, when the students were antiwar activists. What the
reporter is talking about is that around 1970-and it's true-by 1970
students were active antiwar protesters. But that's after eight years of
a U.S. war against South Vietnam, which by then had extended to all of
Indochina, which had practically wiped the place out. In the early years
of the war-it was announced in 1962-U.S. planes are bombing South
Vietnam, napalm was authorized, chemical warfare to destroy food crops,
and programs to drive millions of people into "strategic hamlets," which
are essentially concentration camps. All public. No protest. Impossible
to get anybody to talk about it. For years, even in a place like Boston,
a liberal city, you couldn't have public meetings against the war
because they would be broken up by students, with the support of the
media. You would have to have hundreds of state police around to allow
the speakers like me to escape unscathed. The protests came after years
and years of war. By then, hundreds of thousands of people had been
killed, much of Vietnam had been destroyed. Then you started getting
protests.

But all of that is wiped out of history, because it tells too much of
the truth. It involved years and years of hard work of plenty of people,
mostly young, which finally ended up getting a protest movement. Now
it's far beyond that. But the New York Times reporter can't understand
that. I'm sure the reporter is being very honest. The reporter is saying
exactly what I think she was taught-that there was a huge antiwar
movement because the actual history has to be wiped out of people's
consciousness. You can't learn that dedicated, committed effort can
bring about significant changes of consciousness and understanding.
That's a very dangerous thought to allow people to have.




----------------------------------
David Barsamian founder and director of Alternative Radio. He is the
author of  Decline & Fall of Public Broadcasting as well as a number of
books, such as Propaganda & the Public Mind with Noam Chomsky,
Confronting Empire with Eqbal Ahmad and Culture & Resistance with Edward
Said. He is a regular contributor to Z, the Progressive, and other


This message has been brought to you by ZNet (http://www.zmag.org). Visit 
our site for subscription options.




From anny.ballardini  Sun Jul 20 12:18:49 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:18:49 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030720104947.045f0e28@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <00e301c34eda$9a737200$2e607550@anny>

...if you think they want to increase mine...
and you have no idea of how many naked blond ladies I have seen in the last
months.

sorry, I am noticing you are on the serious line now Gabriel,
care, anny

From: "Gabriel Gudding" <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; "new-poetry"

> It is not Elijah Butler who is after my subscription or acquiescence to
his
> wares or the wiring of my software -- but several companies who want to
> increase the size of my penis or allow it to stand more rampantly, stiff
as
> the tractor's tire, via this or that new Viagra. I do not need my penis
> size increased, thank you, being satisfied with it, and am daily deluged
by
> those who want to increase my insurance, decrease my debt, allow me to see
> the firmest nipples of the most petite of Asian womens. If Elijah Butler
> rings his bell in my inboxes, I will send along your regards, Jim. gg
>
> At 08:47 AM 7/20/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
> >One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
> >Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
> >and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
> >all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
> >not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect.
> >Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
> >it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
> >subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
> >these things.
> >
> >- Jim
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From jvcervantes  Sun Jul 20 14:35:29 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:35:29 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030720104947.045f0e28@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F1AE0F0.9BA4DC68@earthlink.net>

My, my.  The Elijah Butlers I found would disapprove.  I Googled "Elijah
Butler" and found pages of Butler lineage.  The first E.B. mentioned was
born of  Simeon Butler and Hannah Cheney (uh oh!) May 16, 1713.  That
Elijah Butler married one Thankful Smith (honest), who outlived him in
Duke, MA.  Their offspring did the westward ho thing and more Elijahs
and Simeons can be tracked to Illinois, thence Oregon.

What are Sundays for but tracing the lives of others?  Could you say the
same for the firmest nipples of most petite of Asian womens?  Probably. 

- Jim

Gabriel Gudding wrote:
> 
> It is not Elijah Butler who is after my subscription or acquiescence to his
> wares or the wiring of my software -- but several companies who want to
> increase the size of my penis or allow it to stand more rampantly, stiff as
> the tractor's tire, via this or that new Viagra. I do not need my penis
> size increased, thank you, being satisfied with it, and am daily deluged by
> those who want to increase my insurance, decrease my debt, allow me to see
> the firmest nipples of the most petite of Asian womens. If Elijah Butler
> rings his bell in my inboxes, I will send along your regards, Jim. gg
> 
> At 08:47 AM 7/20/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
> >One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
> >Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
> >and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
> >all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
> >not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect.
> >Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
> >it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
> >subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
> >these things.
> >
> >- Jim
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From FanwoodJEL  Sun Jul 20 14:40:46 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:40:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
Message-ID: <23.329571ed.2c4c3c2e@aol.com>

Some spy you'd make. Elijah Butler is really Reltu B. Hajile, Third in 
Command for Burying WMD. Apparently, one of the biological agents may double as a 
sort of generic Viagra. He's recruiting volunteers. Protestations to the 
contrary notwithstanding, I notice Gudding has already signed on, John Hancock 
rampant as a tractor tire.   

JL

In a message dated 7/20/2003 11:48:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:

> One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
> Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
> and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
> all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
> not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect. 
> Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
> it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
> subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
> these things.
> 
> - Jim
> 

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From CobbCoStudioArts  Sun Jul 20 18:08:17 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:08:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
Message-ID: <20030720220817.508A648F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From jvcervantes  Sun Jul 20 19:31:01 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:31:01 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
References: <23.329571ed.2c4c3c2e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F1B2634.38DA7E78@earthlink.net>

Dear Mr. JEL Fanwood:  By replying to this message, you have indicated
an interest in our shovels and other products.  Please send us the size
of the hole you want to dig (metric system) and we will send you an
estimate.  Please note prices USA are different, based on latest
photographic intelligence.  That John Hancock has a really BIG signature!

Also please thank Mr. Gudding, one of our best customers.  He speaks
bigly of you.

Sincerely,

Soft-Hands-Hajile


> Some spy you'd make. Elijah Butler is really Reltu B. Hajile, Third in Command for Burying > WMD. Apparently, one of the biological
> agents may double as a sort of generic Viagra. He's recruiting volunteers. Protestations to > the contrary notwithstanding, I notice Gudding
> has already signed on, John Hancock rampant as a tractor tire.   
>
> JL

> In a message dated 7/20/2003 11:48:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:
>>
>>        One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line,
"You Were
>>        Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his
biblical name
>>        and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
>>       all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler. 
Also, I have
>>       not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more
suspect. 
>>        Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If
he has,
>>        it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
>>        subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's
good to know
>>        these things.
>>
>>        - Jim



From FanwoodJEL  Sun Jul 20 20:34:22 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:34:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
Message-ID: <23.329752da.2c4c8f0e@aol.com>

Dear Preferred Provider of Exotic Goods and Services,

Here in the good ol' US of A, our leadership down by the Swamp District has 
already dug itself a mighty big bunker-buster of a holeabobble. They've asked 
me, though, to ask for your help in, you know, just between us, covering it all 
up. Shhhhh. So please send instructions in American because nobody over here 
in the -- you should pardon the expression -- Intelligence Community 
understands any of those funny languages, though the leader of the -- you should also 
pardon this expression -- free world -- has finally taken a little trip outside 
of North America and, well, he liked it very much. Except for the food. And 
the weird accents. Oh . . . price is no object. Over here, we cut taxes AND 
spend more. Watch closely. The hand never leaves the wrist!

JL


In a message dated 7/20/2003 7:32:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:

> Dear Mr. JEL Fanwood:  By replying to this message, you have indicated
> an interest in our shovels and other products.  Please send us the size
> of the hole you want to dig (metric system) and we will send you an
> estimate.  Please note prices USA are different, based on latest
> photographic intelligence.  That John Hancock has a really BIG signature!
> 
> Also please thank Mr. Gudding, one of our best customers.  He speaks
> bigly of you.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Soft-Hands-Hajile
> 

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From jvcervantes  Sun Jul 20 21:27:13 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:27:13 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmation never ends!
Message-ID: <3F1B4170.9425ED44@earthlink.net>

I now have ANOTHER "You Are Approved" message!!!  My cups runneth over. 
This time from one Maritza Wilkerson, and I opened her message, since
she is apparently a women.  Alas, she is capitalistic whore, not like
Elijah Butler who might not have asked for PIN number and GPS coordinates.

I have learned lesson here.  Such messages are like fortune cookie, best
left unopened.

- Jim

p.s. - I am not an ESL instructor.

p.p.s - I thought Maritza was responding to personals ad.



From FINDINGTHEWORD  Tue Jul 15 14:08:24 2003
From: FINDINGTHEWORD (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:08:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] POETS of 9for9:  Jennifer Coleman, Shanna Compton, Maria Damon, Tom Devaney, Brett Evans, Greg Fuchs, Nada Gordon, Daniel Nester, David Trinidad
Message-ID: <1eb.d196d97.2c459d18@aol.com>

9for9
---------
set 2 of 9

Jennifer Coleman
Shanna Compton
Maria Damon
Tom Devaney
Brett Evans
Greg Fuchs
Nada Gordon
Daniel Nester
David Trinidad


copyright ? 2003
to all participating
poets upon publication


questions by
CAConrad


published by
Mooncalf Press
POBox 22521
Philadelphia, PA 19110
MooncalfPress at hotmail.com


9for9 is a collection of 9 questions for 9 poets and their answers. This is 
the 2nd set of 9 sets. Some of the questions came from dreams, others from 
waking ideas. The project was conducted through e-mail, questions arriving 
in Inboxes once a week, usually on friday. 


If you wish to communicate with any of the poets included, please feel free 
to send correspondence to the e-mail address CAConrad13 at aol.com, with the 
subject line "9for9 correspondence". I promise to forward your message to 
the poet you wish to connect with.


Thank you,
CAConrad
---------

click here for the BRAND NEW <A HREF="http://poets9for9.blogspot.com/">
http://poets9for9.blogspot.com/</A>

the next 9for9 will be a LIVE panel at the Philly Sound Weekend,
beginning at 10:30 a.m. on August 9th <A 
HREF="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/phillysoundwknd.html">http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/phillysoundwknd.html
</A>

poets for the LIVE 9for9 will include:
Jim Berhle
Edmund Berrigan
Jim Cory
hassen
Sofia Memon
Daniel Abdal-Hayy Moore
Deborah Richards
Molly Russakoff
Prageeta Sharma




From reneea  Wed Jul 16 18:06:21 2003
From: reneea (Renee Ashley)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:06:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
References: <000f01c34bd7$54bdc2c0$73391c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <004e01c34be6$7d88bb60$da66fea9@Barnette>

also Winter at the Caspian Sea by Stephen Dunn and Lawrence Raab.
Renee
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 4:17 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser


> David Graham writes:
> 
> >I can't offhand think of any comparable project in poetry.  Can anyone?
> 
> Yup.  Lots.  Joshua Beckman and Matt Rohrer's "Nice Hat. Thanks." Comes
> to mind.
> 
> Then, in a slightly different but far more interesting vein, there's
> Araki Yasusada's "Doubled Flowering."
> 
> Tony
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From gmguddi  Mon Jul 21 11:07:42 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:07:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] disgusting commercial spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030720104947.045f0e28@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <3F1AB9A1.E440328@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030721100549.01329d40@mail.ilstu.edu>

Anyway, all kidding aside, it is very difficult to be the constant receptor 
of spam about all manner of disgusting things. I don't like it. I get spam 
at an old email account forwarded to me about all sorts of things having to 
do with all sorts of disgusting things, some of the below mentioned items 
and more that I'd ratehr not mention.

At 10:55 AM 7/20/2003 -0500, Gabriel Gudding wrote:
>It is not Elijah Butler who is after my subscription or acquiescence to 
>his wares or the wiring of my software -- but several companies who want 
>to increase the size of my penis or allow it to stand more rampantly, 
>stiff as the tractor's tire, via this or that new Viagra. I do not need my 
>penis size increased, thank you, being satisfied with it, and am daily 
>deluged by those who want to increase my insurance, decrease my debt, 
>allow me to see the firmest nipples of the most petite of Asian womens. If 
>Elijah Butler rings his bell in my inboxes, I will send along your 
>regards, Jim. gg
>
>At 08:47 AM 7/20/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
>>One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
>>Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
>>and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
>>all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
>>not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect.
>>Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
>>it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
>>subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
>>these things.
>>
>>- Jim
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From luap  Mon Jul 21 11:17:00 2003
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:17:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] disgusting commercial spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030721100549.01329d40@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307211016220.22072-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

What I hate is the spam that asks if I get spam and promises to stop spam
from coming to me.

Also, i'm starting to get foreign spam - korean, i think.

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/


e

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Gabriel Gudding wrote:

> Anyway, all kidding aside, it is very difficult to be the constant receptor 
> of spam about all manner of disgusting things. I don't like it. I get spam 
> at an old email account forwarded to me about all sorts of things having to 
> do with all sorts of disgusting things, some of the below mentioned items 
> and more that I'd ratehr not mention.
> 
> At 10:55 AM 7/20/2003 -0500, Gabriel Gudding wrote:
> >It is not Elijah Butler who is after my subscription or acquiescence to 
> >his wares or the wiring of my software -- but several companies who want 
> >to increase the size of my penis or allow it to stand more rampantly, 
> >stiff as the tractor's tire, via this or that new Viagra. I do not need my 
> >penis size increased, thank you, being satisfied with it, and am daily 
> >deluged by those who want to increase my insurance, decrease my debt, 
> >allow me to see the firmest nipples of the most petite of Asian womens. If 
> >Elijah Butler rings his bell in my inboxes, I will send along your 
> >regards, Jim. gg
> >
> >At 08:47 AM 7/20/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
> >>One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
> >>Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
> >>and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
> >>all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
> >>not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect.
> >>Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
> >>it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
> >>subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
> >>these things.
> >>
> >>- Jim
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>New-Poetry mailing list
> >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From JforJames  Mon Jul 21 17:38:21 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:38:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] HarperPoetry: The Standing Wave by Gabriel Spera
Message-ID: <113.268e06a8.2c4db74d@aol.com>

Subj:    HarperPoetry: The Standing Wave by Gabriel Spera
Date:   7/21/03 5:09:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   newsletters at harpercollins.com

This newsletter features a poem by Gabriel Spera from his debut
collection of poetry, The Standing Wave. 

The Standing Wave was selected by esteemed poet and editor, Dave Smith,
for The National Poetry Series. Dave Smith writes "This poet is a new
and exciting voice, diverse in subjects and rich in perspectives, yet
withal fully mature, experienced in both the world and the poem?s ways
of enacting. The Standing Wave reveals a keen intelligence whose supple
engagement with crisis and joy alike evokes total confidence from the
first line to the last. I?ll be pleased to lean on friends to take up
this wonderful collection for I think it promises and delivers what we
want from poetry, the sound of that human voice which compels total
attention."

The featured poem, "In A Field Outside The Town," was selected by Rita
Dove for Best American Poetry 2000 anthology. 

This week, as a newsletter-subscriber, you are automatically entered to
win a copy of the Standing Wave by Gabriel Spera.


Thanks for reading and please
<http:\\www.harpercollins.com\services\forwardtofriend\forward_friend.as
p?newsletterid=478>  forward this newsletter to a friend. 

    
..  

In a Field Outside the Town 

Three days later, Suljic was finally given a drink
of water and marched with a dozen other men
onto a small livery truck, one of two, fenced
along each side by wooden planks,

the back left open to give a clear shot
to the automatic weapon poking out the window
of the red sedan that followed, the squat nose
trained on them, ridiculously, as if they?d any thought

of hopping off a moving truck. Suljic peered
vacantly through the slats. He?d missed the yellow flowers
of Spring and by now saw a landscape taken over
by Summer, the grasses closing behind them as they veered

from the road and lurched across cow paths. They drove
to the center of a wide field and stopped. Old sweat,
without the breeze of movement, prickled in the heat.
A metal smell drifted, an untended apple grove

baked on a hill, and the weeds droned, motory with bees.
But Suljic noticed none of these, fixed instead
on the gaps in the field where bodies, all dead,
matted down the wild carrot and chicory, their khakis

splotched darkly, like a fawn?s dappled haunches
obscuring them. The men clambered down into the tall grass
and lined up at gunpoint. Suljic was sure the last
good thing he?d ever see would be the apple branches

drooping with fruit, but the man beside him grabbed
his hand, and looked him in the face, as if
Suljic, just a bricklayer, had any assurances to give.
He squeezed the hand back, hard, and felt a scab

crossing the man?s knuckles. He saw, too, a thin scar
worrying the arch of his left eyebrow, much older,
perhaps from a fall as a child from a ladder
picking fruit. His hand was like a clump of mortar,

and three nights without sleep had webbed his eyes red.
And Suljic suddenly stuttered to ask his name,
what town was he from, his job?anything?but there came
the crackle, like sometimes thunder, undecided

whether to begin, that starts, stalls, then trips
over itself, the sound crinkling from one
end of the sky to the other. The sound took possession
of his face until it, too, crinkled, his grip

pulsed, and he fell forward. Suljic winced
in the tackle of bodies, and splayed down in the dirt
flattening himself like a beetle, not hurt
in any new way, not yet convinced

he wasn?t dead and didn?t feel it. He heard the click
of fresh clips sliding into place, and shut
his eyes lightly, sure someone had seen he wasn?t shot
and would come finish it. But no one came. Another truck

rolled up. The men climbed down, and lined up, docilely.
He recognized, solely by rhythm, a prayer, cut off
by the crackle, the hush of crickets, the soft
whump of bodies folding at the knees

and knocked by bullets shoulder first
into the grass. No one yelled. No one tried to run.
Another truck, another group, falling like a succession
of bricks sliding off a hod. Suljic finally pissed

where he lay, and blended in all the better
with the others. The noise stopped, and he cracked
his eyes enough to see, across the backs
like bleeding hills, a man strolling along the scatter

of bodies with a pistol, putting a slug
into the skull of anyone that still twitched
or mumbled. Then came the snort and low-pitched
rumble of diesel engines as two backhoes dug

a trench along the margin of all the collapsed
bodies. Impossibly, the crackling started anew,
and when darkness finally settled, the squads continued
in what light the backhoes? headlights threw. Perhaps

the shooting was over long before the sound
left him, the crackle to his eardrums
was like the rolling of a boat to his limbs
echoing long after he?d reached dry ground.

The soldiers left. Still he didn?t move, but eased
his eyes full open. The moon above the orchard
was shrinking higher, its light glossing the awkward
pale forms that stubbled the dry weeds,

glinting off teeth and eyes. He scuttled from beneath
the arms and legs flopped sleepingly over
his own, as though by drunkards or lovers,
and rose like a foal to his numb feet,

seeing throughout the field no man not touched
by three dead others. He stood for a moment, trying
to guess, even roughly, their number, multiplying
bodies per square yard, but the math was too much,

the count too huge. He stared at the faces beside him
in the grass, like a man leaving something he knew
he would someday have to return to,
looking for the landmarks that would guide him?

the crooked teeth, the welted cheek, the pale eyes eclipsed
by half-shut lids, lolling upward, inward, swollen
as though with weeping, blood from an unseen hole
glistering down a chin line, crusting on lips.

How could he explain his life, what could he say
to those who weren?t here to see, to the mothers and wives
who?d swear for years their men were still alive,
somewhere, the bodies never found, bulldozed into clay?

would he tell them how he tiptoed, unable to avoid
stepping on hands and ankles, or how the tears
like a secret he?d harbored through three years
of siege shook loose, and how he let them, no longer afraid

of being found out and cut down by gunfire,
or how he ran anyway, when he reached the open, quick
as his bum leg would let him, without a look
back at the faces turned like gourds in the dark mire.



.......................................................................
.................................................. 

    ...  ..  



 <http://www.harpercollins.com/catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060541822>  

OTHER TITLES IN THE NATIONAL POETRY SERIES: 

 <http://www.harpercollins.com/catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060082534> 
Edgewater
by Ruth L. Schwartz
Paperback 


 <http://www.harpercollins.com/catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060935685> 
Tremolo
by Spencer Short 
Paperback 

    ... 
    
..   
 

    ...  

GABRIEL SPERA


Gabriel Spera?s poems have appeared in Chicago Review, Crazyhorse,
Doubletake, Epoch, Folio, Greensboro Review, Laurel Review, Michigan
Quarterly Review, New England Review, Ontario Review, Poetry, Prairie
Schooner, and Southern Review. His work also appears in the anthologies
The Best American Poetry 2000, And We the Creatures, and The POETRY
Anthology, 1912-2002 as well as the textbook Literature and the Writing
Process, 5th/6 th eds. He grew up in New Jersey, and was educated at
Cornell University and the University of North Carolina, Greensboro. He
lives in Los Angeles, where he works as a technical writer for an
aerospace research group. 

     ...     .   




From bobgrumman  Mon Jul 21 21:18:28 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:18:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] HarperPoetry: The Standing Wave by Gabriel Spera
References: <113.268e06a8.2c4db74d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <013801c34fef$288e5360$221dfea9@j1c1k6>

Nothing like a fresh subject, especially done with all the latest poetic
moves.

--Bob G.




From paul.lake  Tue Jul 22 10:08:26 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:08:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] HarperPoetry: The Standing Wave by Gabriel Spera
In-Reply-To: <013801c34fef$288e5360$221dfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <BB42AF8A.5174%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I have to agree with Bob here. The story in the poem was a familiar one, and
the verse was cleanly written prose, but that's about all, minus a few
unimaginative line breaks.

Paul Lake



on 7/21/03 8:18 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:

> Nothing like a fresh subject, especially done with all the latest poetic
> moves.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From paul  Tue Jul 22 14:45:40 2003
From: paul (Paul C. Howell)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:45:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1613 - 3 msgs
In-Reply-To: <200307221601.h6MG1VST015809@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030722144503.04769c38@mail.tbhinc.com>

At 12:01 PM 7/22/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>esteemed poet and editor, Dave Smith


What happened to the spam catcher?

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From luap  Tue Jul 22 17:12:38 2003
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:12:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1613 - 3 msgs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030722144503.04769c38@mail.tbhinc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307221612020.21452-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

He's locked up in Gitmo. May be released in 10 to 12 years, though. Until
then, we must give up some luxuries for 'safety'...

Yeah, that's it ...

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/


e

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Paul C. Howell wrote:

> At 12:01 PM 7/22/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >esteemed poet and editor, Dave Smith
> 
> 
> What happened to the spam catcher?
> 
> 




From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 22 21:32:16 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:32:16 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hold Presses!
Message-ID: <3F1DE59F.76852639@earthlink.net>

Hold Presses!
Alt-Al Jazeera, 2:00 GMT, 22-7-03
Exclusive from our mule, Bossy al Hayeeda, at the Bush Ranch, Crawford,
Texas:  

Revelation in the hay bales: Ousay and Ouday toasted George Bush in a
clandestine meeting for his coup in diverting the attention of the
American public and saving their lives.  Bush, modest as ever, suggested
a second toast to Kobi Bryant. 

Meanwhile, body-doubles for Ousay and Ouday were carted out of a safe
house in Mosul and flown by Balckhawk helicopter to a sub-sub-basement
dug by bunker-busters in a Baghdad palace.

The Crawford Ranch barn, off limits to other reporters, was a scene for
many toasts this afternoon, including one to Jessica Lynch, car accident
victim-cum-hero, and what's-his-name who allegedly murdered
what's-his-name from Baylor.  "We must keep our eyes on the moment,"
said a jubilant Bush.

American Idol. Bush mentioned that.

"We love Libera," Bush said, "but we have to take care of our people. 
Their neighbors can help them."

"We love American democracy," said Ousay and Ouday, "Long live the
copulation . . "

"That's 'coalition'," Bush corrected gently. "If I could sing, I'd go on
American Idol."



From jvcervantes  Wed Jul 23 09:16:54 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 06:16:54 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "In defense of politicians . . . "
Message-ID: <3F1E8AC5.5BA64CB0@earthlink.net>

This was in my mailbox the other day and I thought I'd share it.  - Jim

"In defense of politicians, they are necessarily the products of a
society.  If it is a society that thinks only of money and power,
without any concern for moral values, we should not be surprised if
politicians are corrupt, and should not therefore consider that the
responsibility for such a situation lies entirely with them." -- His
Holiness the Dalai Lama



From mmagee  Wed Jul 23 10:06:31 2003
From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:06:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M.A.D. at 90 plus photos
In-Reply-To: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1058969191.3f1e9667c5d42@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

Howdy folks,

Just letting you know that my serial work "My Angie Dickinson" now stands at 90 
poems - and that my mystery webmeister has, to my surprise and delight, added 
dozens of new photos (almost one to a poem), stranger by the minute.

http://myangiedickinson.blogspot.com

-m.



From mmagee  Wed Jul 23 15:14:00 2003
From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:14:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Finally! COMBO 12: A VERY SPECIAL ISSUE
In-Reply-To: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1058987640.3f1ede787aea6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

IT'S HERE!!! THE VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY SPECIAL SPECIAL SPECIAL SPECIAL ISSUE 
OF COMBO --- COMBO 12: A VERY SPECIAL ISSUE!!!

WHY IS IT SO SPECIAL???

KATIE DEGENTESH: SPECIAL
K. SILEM MOHAMMAD: SPECIAL
GARY SULLIVAN: SPECIAL PERSON
SHARON MESMER: SPECIAL
MITCH HIGHFILL: VERY SPECIAL
DAVID LARSEN: SPECIAL
MICHAEL MAGEE: ESPECIALLY SPECIAL
MARIA DAMON: XTRA SPECIAL
JORDAN DAVIS: SPECIAL
DANIEL BOUCHARD: REALLY, REALLY SPECIAL
RODNEY KOENEKE: TOTALLY SPECIAL
NADA GORDAN: SPECIAL
DREW GARDNER: SPECIAL

SEE???

COMBO 12 is 60 pages, side-stapled with original artwork of deer on glossy 
cardstock cover.

AT $10/4-issue subscription IT'S THE CHEAPEST, GREATEST POETRY MAG IN THE WHOLE 
WORLD!!!

and don't forget our LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTION at $50.00 (includes all future 
issues as well as all available back issues).

Single copies are now $4.00

CASH OR CHECK TO: Michael Magee, 31 Perrin Ave., Pawtucket, RI 02861
NEW EMAIL: combo1 at cox.net
LOOK FOR OUR NEW AND IMPROVED WEB DESIGN SOON AT: www.combopoetry.com

That is all.

-m.



From DICK  Wed Jul 23 15:23:23 2003
From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 03 15:23:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Standing Wave"
Message-ID: <200307231927.h6NJRnYo071084@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com>

I'm with Bob G. and Paul Lake on this one.  The poem is
quite good prose, I think, the kind of reportage I'd
expect in, say, the NYer (I mean this as a compliment),
but I couldn't find any reason for the line breaks, any
decipherable meter, any intriguing metaphor - beyond what
might appear in good prose - any of the characteristics
of poetry.

I like quite a lot of Dave Smith's poetry, but his
editorial choices...?

Richard



From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 24 14:19:19 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:19:19 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] post, not publication: "Theoretically"
Message-ID: <3F202326.43DCFBA3@earthlink.net>

Theoretically


Still haunted by an attachment to "identity"? Unaware of any theoretical
developments  in language after 1913, the year of the lovely "Black
Square" by Malevich?

Perhaps this is why it took you years to finally say "Uncle Clyde" and
mean it. Only then did you realize "Uncle Clyde" was attached to your
identity.  What changed was the total lack of words or names for his
haunting, his yearning to give you a plasmatic slap on the face and say,
"Complete me!  Break the friggin milk bottles and burn those musty papers!"

The problem was you didn't want to go back to 1913 for the name, and
instead floundered in the late 70s.  Had you been aware, you would have
noticed that "Clyde" and "Uncle" had been in use all along, though not
timeless. On the streets and in the playgrounds, "Uncle" was as common
as a cigarette butt, "Clyde" somewhat problematic as you'd never been on
a farm, nor met anyone who would  admit to the name.

Now you're free and can theoretically go about your business. 
What's-his-name is gone and all you can see is a pair of overalls and
some long underwear on a clothesline wherever they still have real
clotheslines and a dozen or so clothespins waiting.


- Jim


* The first two sentences closely but loosely paraphrase those of Kazim
Ali in a post to the Poetics list Wed, 23 Jul 2003.



From JforJames  Thu Jul 24 20:45:31 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:45:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Nude vs. Reading Barefoot
Message-ID: <122.24c71ee9.2c51d7ab@aol.com>

Date:   7/23/03 4:30:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   webmaster at milkweed.org (Milkweed Webmaster)
Sender: everse-owner at milkweed.org


RETURN OF THE SENSUOUS READER 

Reading Nude vs. Reading Barefoot 

Unless you are especially comfortable 
with your body, reading in the nude is likely
to be more of a distraction than an enhancement. 

A better compromise that still lends an air of ease
and intimacy is reading barefoot. Just imagine
walking barefoot over the words you're reading.
Note: this is especially pleasurable to do in public. 


Elaine Equi

--------------------------
copyright (c) 2003 Elaine Equi. From "The Cloud of Knowable Things," 
published by Coffee House Press ( http://www.coffeehousepress.org/ )
 --------------------------

E-verse is a free service presented by Milkweed Editions 
(http://www.milkweed.org). 
For more information or to unsubscribe, please e-mail us at 
webmaster at milkweed.org. 

Sign up a friend for e-verse at http://www.milkweed.org/3_1.html

Enjoy your week! 



From JforJames  Thu Jul 24 20:57:37 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:57:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] so quoth he a Tagore quote
Message-ID: <8f.2ffaa16b.2c51da81@aol.com>

"When a reader feels particularly interested in 
some passage of a book, he underlines it.  Although
the words are not his own, he feels a kind of proprietary
right to them by the intensity of his realisation of their
meaning. And he wishes to mark them out for all times.
That is kind of underlining or marking out may be called
Art."
Rabindranath Tagore, "Random Discourse" (66),
from_Rabindranath Tagore: On Art and Aesthetics_



From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 24 21:13:40 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:13:40 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] so quoth he a Tagore quote
References: <8f.2ffaa16b.2c51da81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F208444.DDC4D728@earthlink.net>

Lovely project:  Words I Have Underlined.  Anyone ever go back through
their books and wonder why this or that was underlined?  I usually make
notes in the margins, but the most fascinating are those underlined
words without corresponding notes.  On the other hand, maybe it's just age.

- Jim

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> "When a reader feels particularly interested in
> some passage of a book, he underlines it.  Although
> the words are not his own, he feels a kind of proprietary
> right to them by the intensity of his realisation of their
> meaning. And he wishes to mark them out for all times.
> That is kind of underlining or marking out may be called
> Art."
> Rabindranath Tagore, "Random Discourse" (66),
> from_Rabindranath Tagore: On Art and Aesthetics_
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames  Thu Jul 24 22:53:39 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:53:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] so quoth he a Tagore quote
Message-ID: <11.160629c0.2c51f5b3@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/24/03 9:14:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:

> "When a reader feels particularly interested in
>  some passage of a book, he underlines it.  Although
>  the words are not his own, he feels a kind of proprietary
>  right to them by the intensity of his realisation of their
>  meaning. And he wishes to mark them out for all times.
>  That kind of underlining or marking out may be called
>  Art."
>  Rabindranath Tagore, "Random Discourse" (66),
>  from_Rabindranath Tagore: On Art and Aesthetics_

oops, this is fixed now...my typo made it a misquote.



From luap  Thu Jul 24 23:22:28 2003
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:22:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] so quoth he a Tagore quote
In-Reply-To: <3F208444.DDC4D728@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307242221030.11168-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

Yes. A lot of Miller and Nin. Sometimes the connections are still there.
Sometimes not.

That would make an interesting web project. People submitting 'snippets'
of other works - a way to virtually underline - and those collections are
put into a whole in some fashion.

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/


On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, James Cervantes wrote:

> Lovely project:  Words I Have Underlined.  Anyone ever go back through
> their books and wonder why this or that was underlined?  I usually make
> notes in the margins, but the most fascinating are those underlined
> words without corresponding notes.  On the other hand, maybe it's just age.
> 
> - Jim
> 
> JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > "When a reader feels particularly interested in
> > some passage of a book, he underlines it.  Although
> > the words are not his own, he feels a kind of proprietary
> > right to them by the intensity of his realisation of their
> > meaning. And he wishes to mark them out for all times.
> > That is kind of underlining or marking out may be called
> > Art."
> > Rabindranath Tagore, "Random Discourse" (66),
> > from_Rabindranath Tagore: On Art and Aesthetics_
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Jul 25 00:20:25 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:20:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] so quoth he a Tagore quote
Message-ID: <20030725042025.5BDC8CF48@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
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From jvcervantes  Fri Jul 25 08:18:59 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:18:59 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] so quoth he a Tagore quote
References: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307242221030.11168-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <3F212033.404C857@earthlink.net>

Maybe someone on this list is up to mounting a site for that?  Or maybe
we could simply open up a blog that everyone could access and add to? 
Or maybe someone could add it to their existing blog?  Whatever, but no
damn Yahoo! website.

- Jim

"K. Paul Mallasch" wrote:
> 
> Yes. A lot of Miller and Nin. Sometimes the connections are still there.
> Sometimes not.
> 
> That would make an interesting web project. People submitting 'snippets'
> of other works - a way to virtually underline - and those collections are
> put into a whole in some fashion.
> 
> -kpaul
> mallasch.com/mug/
> 
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, James Cervantes wrote:
> 
> > Lovely project:  Words I Have Underlined.  Anyone ever go back through
> > their books and wonder why this or that was underlined?  I usually make
> > notes in the margins, but the most fascinating are those underlined
> > words without corresponding notes.  On the other hand, maybe it's just age.
> >
> > - Jim
> >
> > JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > "When a reader feels particularly interested in
> > > some passage of a book, he underlines it.  Although
> > > the words are not his own, he feels a kind of proprietary
> > > right to them by the intensity of his realisation of their
> > > meaning. And he wishes to mark them out for all times.
> > > That is kind of underlining or marking out may be called
> > > Art."
> > > Rabindranath Tagore, "Random Discourse" (66),
> > > from_Rabindranath Tagore: On Art and Aesthetics_
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From marcus  Fri Jul 25 09:13:08 2003
From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:13:08 GMT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Nude vs. Reading Barefoot
Message-ID: <200307251301.h6PD1RST001372@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

> RETURN OF THE SENSUOUS READER 
> Elaine Equi
> Reading Nude vs. Reading Barefoot 
> Unless you are especially comfortable 
> with your body, reading in the nude is likely
> to be more of a distraction than an enhancement. 
> A better compromise that still lends an air of ease
> and intimacy is reading barefoot. Just imagine
> walking barefoot over the words you're reading.
> Note: this is especially pleasurable to do in public. 

The Naked and the Nude
Robert Graves

For me, the naked and the nude 
(By lexicographers construed 
As synonyms that should express 
The same deficiency of dress 
Or shelter) stand as wide apart 
As love from lies, or truth from art. 

Lovers without reproach will gaze 
On bodies naked and ablaze; 
The Hippocratic eye will see 
In nakedness, anatomy; 
And naked shines the Goddess when 
She mounts her lion among men. 

The nude are bold, the nude are sly 
To hold each treasonable eye. 
While draping by a showman's trick 
Their dishabille in rhetoric, 
They grin a mock-religious grin 
Of scorn at those of naked skin. 

The naked, therefore, who compete 
Against the nude may know defeat; 
Yet when they both together tread 
The briary pastures of the dead, 
By Gorgons with long whips pursued, 
How naked go the sometime nude!







From mmagee  Fri Jul 25 19:06:50 2003
From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 19:06:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] COMBO WEBSITE: NOW 25% MORE SPECIAL!
In-Reply-To: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1059174410.3f21b80a8ef9a@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

The new COMBO website is up:

http://www.combopoetry.com

And don't forget about COMBO 12 and that new subscription you're planning to 
order!

-m.



From FINDINGTHEWORD  Sun Jul 27 18:32:24 2003
From: FINDINGTHEWORD (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:32:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] PHILLY SOUND: =?ISO-8859-1?B?oE5ldyBQb2V0cnkgV2Vla2VuZCAqICogKiAqICogKiAqICogKiAqICogKiAq?=
Message-ID: <1EAEC33A.470EA59C.20CA8F88@aol.com>


http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/phillysoundwknd.html


come on
take it
all in





From FINDINGTHEWORD  Sun Jul 27 18:35:59 2003
From: FINDINGTHEWORD (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:35:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] come hear LAURA SMITH read before she moves!
Message-ID: <3B2985FF.056304B4.20CA8F88@aol.com>

Laura has three readings coming up before she moves,
check out the going away readings webpage:

http://hometown.aol.com/caconrad9/myhomepage/xfiles.html







From halvard  Mon Jul 28 09:44:59 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:44:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP: Bob Hope (1903-2003)
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEDBHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

This from the last section ("Hope: An Elegy") from "The Bob Hope Poem"
in Campbell McGrath's *Spring Comes to Chicago* [Ecco Press, 1996].

Would you believe it, if I told you, that even now, as I write these lines, as I
	dance this little caffeine-buzz shuffle,
word comes over the radio that Bob Hope has passed over to the great
	beyond, gone to fetch his eternal reward,
retired at last to vaudeville Valhalla, that heavenly Pro-Am, that never-
	ending celebrity roast in the sky?

What matter if it's true, if it is inevitable?
If not today, tomorrow; if not tomorrow, yesterday.
Who among us can predict the future?

For that matter, who can predict the past,
except to say that this, too, shall surely pass,
that death is nothing if not absolute?

Already I see his picture
on the cover 
of *People* magazine,

young and beautiful Bob, smiling his smile of purest mastery, leering the
	leer of an era untroubled by doubt or uncertainty.

Bob agog with Bing on the golf course, Bob playing kissy with second-
	string starlets.
Bob pushing Pepsodent, Bob shopping Oscars, Bob selling war bonds with
	Eleanor Roosevelt.
Bob in the jungles of Guadalcanal, Bob raising the flag on Iwo Jima, Bob as
	Coyote, Bob as Loki, Bob in the ashes of Nagasaki.
Bob as cook, Bob as Darwin, Bob as Columbus, Bob as Buzz Aldrin.
	the Museum of American History, Bob teeing off in the Sea of Serenity.
Bob the body and Bob the shadow, Bob the echo and Bob the call.
Bob the imperial envoy of the American System, Bob the corporate
	janissary, Bob the mad jester of cultural hegemony.

THANKS FOR THE MEMORY!

So long. Farewell. Good-bye,
sweet Bob.
Adios, adieu, aloha.

Sayonara,
as Bing would say.

Sayonara on a steel guitar.

--Campbell McGrath

=====

Hal     

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From Garrbearr  Mon Jul 28 18:22:33 2003
From: Garrbearr (Garrbearr at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:22:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] From another who never you at all Bob Hope...i wish for you
Message-ID: <158.222386d1.2c56fc29@aol.com>




   the silver glint of every heavens morning dew





:)
gary
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From ron.silliman  Mon Jul 28 07:24:52 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 07:24:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c354fa$e1c42070$1d72ed41@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

Is it flarf without Google?

Mary Burger:
writing with an edge

Robert Lowell &
the poetics of the Third Way

Louis Cabri on 
allusions, up or down

Spidertangle: the_book
On the margins between poetry
& visual art
come needlepoint & more

Reading "Biotherm"
by Frank O'Hara

Ted Berrigan:
1934-1983
How strange to be gone in a minute!

Robert Lowell
& the process of literary CPR

Reading Carla Harryman:
Situating poetry along new boundaries

Malevich:
Off center, 
thinking with material & shape

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

60,000 hits since September 2002






From gmguddi  Tue Jul 29 01:04:04 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 00:04:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject)
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030729000330.012e3288@mail.ilstu.edu>


________________________________________________
www.antiwar.com (probably the most useful, thorough, and frequently updated 
of the urls pertaining to US foreign policy -- also one of the most 
credible of the avowedly anti-war right-wing websites)
http://www.truthout.org (stories exclusively from mainstream media -- for 
this reason, a very interesting website)
http://www.commondreams.org/ (this compilation website is subtitled 
"breaking news and views for the progressive community")
http://www.buzzflash.com/ (very earnest and sometimes annoying abstracts 
but generally the most sedulously updated website I frequent)
http://www.legitgov.org/ (*very* annoying abstracts and profoundly 
left-bias to this website, but useful stories)
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/?userlang=en (a Russian website rumored to be 
maintained by Russian intelligence. During the major combat in Iraq, this 
webste provided reports based on US-UK military radio communications. 
Sometimes carries and duplicates journalist pieces from western sources. 
Also interesting in that it provides reader-feedback sections. This 
feedback is often very caustic in its criticisms of the US invasion of Iraq 
and of US policy toward Israel and its occupation of Palestine.)
www.indymedia.org (Independent media source, cooperative. Broke the story, 
eg, with photographs, of how staged the toppling of the Saddam statue after 
the "liberation")
http://www.newamericancentury.org/ (this policy website is run by the 
Project for the New American Century, a "neo-con" organization with strong 
political and business and policy ties to the Bush administration. If you 
want to know what the administration is thinking or where it's going, this 
is a good place to start.)
www.onpower.org (a compendium of articles and bibliographic material about 
how US foreign market and military interests have been advanced by the 
advent and creation of national "crises" -- more of a thinktank website 
than a news source, but topical and germane)
http://www.aljazeerah.info/ (an online English version of Al Jazeera, the 
news source out of Qatar, which has won several prestigious international 
awards for its journalism [eg, a recent "anti-censorship award" called the 
"Freedom of Expression Award" given by the London-based Index on 
Censorship]. Of itself it says, "Your Gateway to Understanding the world 
system, American Foreign Policy, and the Arab and Muslim Worlds ..."  Very 
interesting source.)
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/index.htm (Associated Press breaking news. 
Some of these stories are later picked up by newspapers and are then 
altered by those newspapers. Sometimes it's interesting to note how 
newspapers alter the stories. For instance, just a few days ago the New 
York Times removed some statistics from an online story about how many US 
soldiers have been wounded in Iraq since the US invaded the country)

--"That there are men in all countries who get their living by war, and by 
keeping up the quarrels of nations, is as shocking as it is true; but when 
those who are concerned in the government of a country, make it their study 
to sow discord, and cultivate prejudices between nations, it becomes the 
more unpardonable."
         -- Thomas Paine, "The Rights of Man", circa 1792




From halvard  Tue Jul 29 07:06:56 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 07:06:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030729000330.012e3288@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEEJHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Thanks for the interesting list of links, Gabe. Your comment on this one
reminded me that Google News is useful in the same way--almost any
news story can be seen in hundreds of manifestations in papers around
the world as it works its way down (out?) from the wire services. Of
course, we all know that even a different headline above a story can
color our reading of it. Etc.

{    http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/index.htm (Associated Press breaking news. 
{    Some of these stories are later picked up by newspapers and are then 
{    altered by those newspapers. Sometimes it's interesting to note how 
{    newspapers alter the stories. For instance, just a few days ago the New 
{    York Times removed some statistics from an online story about how many US 
{    soldiers have been wounded in Iraq since the US invaded the country)

Hal     "Am I wrong, or are fewer and fewer people
            using the word 'Weltschmerz' these days?"
                      --Christopher Howell                                

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From grahamd  Tue Jul 29 08:27:24 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:27:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbirthday
Message-ID: <BB4BE06B.4111%grahamd@ripon.edu>

It was John Ashbery's birthday yesterday--he is a day over 76.  But why do I
tell you these things?  You are not even here. . . .



This Room


The room I entered was a dream of this room.
Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
The oval portrait
of a dog was me at an early age.
Something shimmers, something is hushed up.

We had macaroni for lunch every day
except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
You are not even here.

-- by John Ashbery from *Your Name Here* (Farrar, Straus, and Giroux).

-- 
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From grahamd  Tue Jul 29 09:18:21 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:18:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
Message-ID: <BB4BEC5D.411A%grahamd@ripon.edu>

How about a pop quiz?

Who can identify the author of this author's note?

"Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
left hand? dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical exercise,
steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized charity,
magazine covers, and the gas company?"


-- 
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================






From tadrichards  Tue Jul 29 09:36:53 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:36:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbirthday
References: <BB4BE06B.4111%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <012601c355d6$79340340$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

And why do I respond? I haven't even read your note.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:27 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbirthday


> It was John Ashbery's birthday yesterday--he is a day over 76.  But why do
I
> tell you these things?  You are not even here. . . .
>
>
>
> This Room
>
>
> The room I entered was a dream of this room.
> Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
> The oval portrait
> of a dog was me at an early age.
> Something shimmers, something is hushed up.
>
> We had macaroni for lunch every day
> except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
> to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
> You are not even here.
>
> -- by John Ashbery from *Your Name Here* (Farrar, Straus, and Giroux).
>
> -- 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From MillB  Tue Jul 29 09:39:33 2003
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:39:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
Message-ID: <142.164cc3e9.2c57d315@aol.com>

Bob Fossee?

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From marcus  Tue Jul 29 09:44:44 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:44:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
In-Reply-To: <BB4BEC5D.411A%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F26420C.14285.8F23B5@localhost>

> Who can identify the author of this author's note?
> 
> "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
> left hand? dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
> absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical exercise,
> steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized charity,
> magazine covers, and the gas company?"

Don Marquis, of course.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com







From bobgrumman  Tue Jul 29 10:08:49 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 10:08:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
References: <BB4BEC5D.411A%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <018a01c355da$ef9d49c0$cc70fea9@j1c1k6>

How about a pop quiz?

Who can identify the author of this author's note?

"Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
left handS dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical exercise,
steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized charity,
magazine covers, and the gas companyS"


David Graham

I have no idea but can't resist guessing Frank O'Hara.

--Bob G.




From anny.ballardini  Tue Jul 29 10:51:40 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:51:40 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
References: <BB4BEC5D.411A%grahamd@ripon.edu> <018a01c355da$ef9d49c0$cc70fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <001701c355e0$eb6e1040$e41c2dd5@anny>

Marcus Bales cheated, he did what I did (that is why I know) and ran the
info on Google, the result is :

Don Marquis on Don Marquis,

here is the link,
http://www.donmarquis.com/don/autobio.html



> How about a pop quiz?
>
> Who can identify the author of this author's note?
>
> "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
> left handS dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
> absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical
exercise,
> steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized
charity,
> magazine covers, and the gas companyS"
>
>
> David Graham





From marcus  Tue Jul 29 11:08:31 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:08:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
In-Reply-To: <001701c355e0$eb6e1040$e41c2dd5@anny>
Message-ID: <3F2655AF.20127.DBD8CC@localhost>

I'd just like to point out in my defense that I'm a light verse 
writer; I own all Don Marquis's books of light verse, and have been a 
fan of his since 1967 when I discovered his "Love Sonnets From A Cave 
Man", one example of which I give here:

When One Loves Tensely
Don Marquis

When one loves tensely, words are naught, my dear!
You never felt I loved you till the day
I sighed and heaved a chunk of rock your way;
Nor I, until you clutched my father's spear
And coyly clipped the lobe from off my ear,
Guessed the sweet thought you were too shy to say -
All mute we listened to the larks of May,
Silent, we harked the laughter of the year.

Later, my dear, I'll say you spoke enough!
Do you remember how I took you, sweet,
And banged your head upon the frozen rill
Until I broke the ice, and by your feet
Held you submerged until your tongue was still?
When one loves tensely, one is sometimes rough.

                   --Don Marquis


On 29 Jul 2003 at 16:51, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> Marcus Bales cheated, he did what I did (that is why I know) and ran the
> info on Google, the result is :
> 
> Don Marquis on Don Marquis,
> 
> here is the link,
> http://www.donmarquis.com/don/autobio.html
> 
> 
> 
> > How about a pop quiz?
> >
> > Who can identify the author of this author's note?
> >
> > "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
> > left handS dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
> > absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical
> exercise,
> > steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized
> charity,
> > magazine covers, and the gas companyS"
> >
> >
> > David Graham
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From anny.ballardini  Tue Jul 29 11:14:12 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:14:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
References: <3F2655AF.20127.DBD8CC@localhost>
Message-ID: <002b01c355e4$11d545c0$e41c2dd5@anny>

All rouff all rouff Bales,
you are the winner,
:-(
a

From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> I'd just like to point out in my defense that I'm a light verse
> writer; I own all Don Marquis's books of light verse, and have been a
> fan of his since 1967 when I discovered his "Love Sonnets From A Cave
> Man", one example of which I give here:
>
> When One Loves Tensely
> Don Marquis
>
> When one loves tensely, words are naught, my dear!
> You never felt I loved you till the day
> I sighed and heaved a chunk of rock your way;
> Nor I, until you clutched my father's spear
> And coyly clipped the lobe from off my ear,
> Guessed the sweet thought you were too shy to say -
> All mute we listened to the larks of May,
> Silent, we harked the laughter of the year.
>
> Later, my dear, I'll say you spoke enough!
> Do you remember how I took you, sweet,
> And banged your head upon the frozen rill
> Until I broke the ice, and by your feet
> Held you submerged until your tongue was still?
> When one loves tensely, one is sometimes rough.
>
>                    --Don Marquis
>
>
> On 29 Jul 2003 at 16:51, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
> > Marcus Bales cheated, he did what I did (that is why I know) and ran the
> > info on Google, the result is :
> >
> > Don Marquis on Don Marquis,
> >
> > here is the link,
> > http://www.donmarquis.com/don/autobio.html
> >
> >
> >
> > > How about a pop quiz?
> > >
> > > Who can identify the author of this author's note?
> > >
> > > "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little
finger of
> > > left handS dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's
poetry,
> > > absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical
> > exercise,
> > > steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized
> > charity,
> > > magazine covers, and the gas companyS"
> > >
> > >
> > > David Graham
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> Marcus Bales
>
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From tadrichards  Tue Jul 29 12:14:11 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:14:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
References: <BB4BEC5D.411A%grahamd@ripon.edu> <018a01c355da$ef9d49c0$cc70fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <002201c355ec$729228d0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Auden?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] About the author


> How about a pop quiz?
>
> Who can identify the author of this author's note?
>
> "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
> left handS dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
> absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical
exercise,
> steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized
charity,
> magazine covers, and the gas companyS"
>
>
> David Graham
>
> I have no idea but can't resist guessing Frank O'Hara.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 29 12:21:20 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:21:20 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
References: <3F2655AF.20127.DBD8CC@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F269F00.DE8C7CDE@earthlink.net>

Archie & Mehitabel are toots sweet.  As a matter of fact, Archie lives
in my bathroom.

- Jim

Marcus Bales wrote:
> 
> I'd just like to point out in my defense that I'm a light verse
> writer; I own all Don Marquis's books of light verse, and have been a
> fan of his since 1967 when I discovered his "Love Sonnets From A Cave
> Man", one example of which I give here:
> 
> When One Loves Tensely
> Don Marquis
> 
> When one loves tensely, words are naught, my dear!
> You never felt I loved you till the day
> I sighed and heaved a chunk of rock your way;
> Nor I, until you clutched my father's spear
> And coyly clipped the lobe from off my ear,
> Guessed the sweet thought you were too shy to say -
> All mute we listened to the larks of May,
> Silent, we harked the laughter of the year.
> 
> Later, my dear, I'll say you spoke enough!
> Do you remember how I took you, sweet,
> And banged your head upon the frozen rill
> Until I broke the ice, and by your feet
> Held you submerged until your tongue was still?
> When one loves tensely, one is sometimes rough.
> 
>                    --Don Marquis
> 
> On 29 Jul 2003 at 16:51, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> 
> > Marcus Bales cheated, he did what I did (that is why I know) and ran the
> > info on Google, the result is :
> >
> > Don Marquis on Don Marquis,
> >
> > here is the link,
> > http://www.donmarquis.com/don/autobio.html
> >
> >
> >
> > > How about a pop quiz?
> > >
> > > Who can identify the author of this author's note?
> > >
> > > "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
> > > left handS dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
> > > absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical
> > exercise,
> > > steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized
> > charity,
> > > magazine covers, and the gas companyS"
> > >
> > >
> > > David Graham
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard  Tue Jul 29 13:57:53 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:57:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
In-Reply-To: <3F269F00.DE8C7CDE@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEFDHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

   
{    Archie & Mehitabel are toots sweet.  As a matter of fact, Archie lives
{    in my bathroom.
{    
{    - Jim

And Mehitabel the other day, just to hear it ring.

Hal                "He's the kind of guy who can brighten
                      a room by leaving it."
                                   --Milton Berle
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From DICK  Tue Jul 29 13:53:16 2003
From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 03 13:53:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] John Ashbery's birthday
Message-ID: <200307291842.h6TIgJmL020032@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>

He must be slowing down -- I stayed with him for this one.
   or am I speeding up?

Richard


>>It was John Ashbery's birthday yesterday--he is a day over 76.  But why do I
>>tell you these things?  You are not even here. . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>This Room
>>
>>
>>The room I entered was a dream of this room.
>>Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
>>The oval portrait
>>of a dog was me at an early age.
>>Something shimmers, something is hushed up.
>>
>>We had macaroni for lunch every day
>>except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
>>to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
>>You are not even here.
>>
>>-- by John Ashbery from *Your Name Here* (Farrar, Straus, and Giroux).



From Rsgwynn1  Tue Jul 29 14:52:45 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:52:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
Message-ID: <a1.3c1cbc15.2c581c7d@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/29/2003 8:40:56 AM Central Daylight Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes: 
> "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
> >left hand? dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
> >absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical 
> exercise,
> >steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized 
> charity,
> >magazine covers, and the gas company?"
> 
Sharon Olds?
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From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 29 14:54:21 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:54:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] John Ashbery's birthday
References: <200307291842.h6TIgJmL020032@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <3F26C2DD.B61A3795@earthlink.net>

If you forget the first line by the time you get to the end, then
there's a mild surprise.  If you remember the first line, then you
should feel you've been had.

- Jim

DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com wrote:
> 
> He must be slowing down -- I stayed with him for this one.
>    or am I speeding up?
> 
> Richard
> 
> >>It was John Ashbery's birthday yesterday--he is a day over 76.  But why do I
> >>tell you these things?  You are not even here. . . .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>This Room
> >>
> >>
> >>The room I entered was a dream of this room.
> >>Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
> >>The oval portrait
> >>of a dog was me at an early age.
> >>Something shimmers, something is hushed up.
> >>
> >>We had macaroni for lunch every day
> >>except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
> >>to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
> >>You are not even here.
> >>
> >>-- by John Ashbery from *Your Name Here* (Farrar, Straus, and Giroux).
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 29 14:56:05 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:56:05 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEFDHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F26C345.B69A6EF0@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> 
> {    Archie & Mehitabel are toots sweet.  As a matter of fact, Archie lives
> {    in my bathroom.
> {
> {    - Jim
> 
> And Mehitabel the other day, just to hear it ring.

Further, Archie crept in on little roach feets.

- Jim



From anny.ballardini  Tue Jul 29 18:05:11 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 00:05:11 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] nonsense
Message-ID: <013f01c3561d$7b659100$e41c2dd5@anny>

twittering twittering in the night

din said to don

or was it don to din?

(and he whispered in his ears)

and don answered to din

or was it din to don?

(and he whispered in his ears)

twittering twittering in the night


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From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Jul 29 18:57:56 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:57:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
Message-ID: <20030729225756.9EA7F3CBD@sitemail.everyone.net>

David Graham,

It could be you.  Virtually, it could be a whole lot of poetically-minded people.  In the context of Cafe-Blue members only, all things considered, it could even be me?  Nah!

Bob

Poetry Catamaran

"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"

Robert R. Cobb
AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
http://rrcobb.tripod.com


--- David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>How about a pop quiz?
>
>Who can identify the author of this author's note?
>
>"Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
>left hand? dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
>absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical exercise,
>steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized charity,
>magazine covers, and the gas company?"
>
>
>-- 
>====================================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>====================================================
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From robin.hamilton2  Tue Jul 29 18:55:28 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robert Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:55:28 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] nonsense
References: <013f01c3561d$7b659100$e41c2dd5@anny>
Message-ID: <019401c35624$82084fa0$58068751@robin>

... oh where were you going, said reader to rider?

<<
From: Anny Ballardini

twittering twittering in the night
din said to don
or was it don to din?
(and he whispered in his ears)
and don answered to din
or was it din to don?
(and he whispered in his ears)
twittering twittering in the night
>>

At last someone (trust Anny) gets it right -- it's (by convention) don
marquis (lower case, though I couldn't swear to the Cruise of the Jasper B),
but it's *always* archie and mehitabel -- toujours gay, mes vieux!

It's built into the nature of the shift key.

(Incidentally, leaving aside Don Marquis' [sic] Light Verse [Hermione's
Group of  {Serious?}Thinkers], there are now four collections of a&m poems,
two posthumously collected.)

Call me Francois

or

The Raggle-Taggle Gypsy Cat




From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Jul 29 19:01:19 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:01:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
Message-ID: <20030729230120.99C483FCE@sitemail.everyone.net>

David,

...or, it could be any number of poets who frequent the [New-Poetry] list serve.

Bob

Poetry Catamaran

"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"

Robert R. Cobb
AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
http://rrcobb.tripod.com


--- David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>How about a pop quiz?
>
>Who can identify the author of this author's note?
>
>"Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
>left hand? dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
>absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical exercise,
>steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized charity,
>magazine covers, and the gas company?"
>
>
>-- 
>====================================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>====================================================
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From tadrichards  Tue Jul 29 20:12:55 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 20:12:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gotta have one
References: <20030729230120.99C483FCE@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <002601c3562f$53848030$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

LOWELL, Massachusetts (AP) -- A homegrown literary icon will be remembered
next month with an honor usually reserved for sports figures: a bobblehead
doll.

The first 1,000 fans at the August 21 game between the Lowell Spinners and
Williamsport Crosscutters of the Class A New York-Penn League will receive
bobbing likenesses of Jack Kerouac.

The giveaway, in partnership with the English department at the University
of Massachusetts at Lowell, is part of "Jack Kerouac Night" at LeLacheur
Park.

The eight-inch doll features Kerouac holding a pen and notebook and standing
on a copy of "On The Road," his best-known work.

"It's unusual, to say the least, to have a sports team get involved with a
literary figure," said Hilary Holladay, director of the Kerouac Conference
on Beat Literature.

Before he was a writer, Kerouac was a baseball fan and athlete. He excelled
in football and track at Lowell High School, spent the winter of 1942 as a
sportswriter for The Sun of Lowell, and played football at Columbia.




From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 29 21:13:59 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:13:59 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gotta have one
References: <20030729230120.99C483FCE@sitemail.everyone.net> <002601c3562f$53848030$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <3F271BD7.667131FC@earthlink.net>

You betcha.  I guess we write U. Mass.?

- Jim

TheOldMole wrote:
> 
> LOWELL, Massachusetts (AP) -- A homegrown literary icon will be remembered
> next month with an honor usually reserved for sports figures: a bobblehead
> doll.
> 
> The first 1,000 fans at the August 21 game between the Lowell Spinners and
> Williamsport Crosscutters of the Class A New York-Penn League will receive
> bobbing likenesses of Jack Kerouac.
> 
> The giveaway, in partnership with the English department at the University
> of Massachusetts at Lowell, is part of "Jack Kerouac Night" at LeLacheur
> Park.
> 
> The eight-inch doll features Kerouac holding a pen and notebook and standing
> on a copy of "On The Road," his best-known work.
> 
> "It's unusual, to say the least, to have a sports team get involved with a
> literary figure," said Hilary Holladay, director of the Kerouac Conference
> on Beat Literature.
> 
> Before he was a writer, Kerouac was a baseball fan and athlete. He excelled
> in football and track at Lowell High School, spent the winter of 1942 as a
> sportswriter for The Sun of Lowell, and played football at Columbia.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 29 21:28:34 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:28:34 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gotta have one
References: <20030729230120.99C483FCE@sitemail.everyone.net> <002601c3562f$53848030$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <3F271F41.84F76BB8@earthlink.net>

Boy, do they have a sucky homepage!  Anyway, the address is:

University of Massachusetts Lowell 
One University Avenue
Lowell, MA  01854

Don't have a clue who you'd direct queries to, but I suspect "Re: Jack
Kerouac bobblehead doll" would do the trick.

- Jim

TheOldMole wrote:
> 
> LOWELL, Massachusetts (AP) -- A homegrown literary icon will be remembered
> next month with an honor usually reserved for sports figures: a bobblehead
> doll.
> 
> The first 1,000 fans at the August 21 game between the Lowell Spinners and
> Williamsport Crosscutters of the Class A New York-Penn League will receive
> bobbing likenesses of Jack Kerouac.
> 
> The giveaway, in partnership with the English department at the University
> of Massachusetts at Lowell, is part of "Jack Kerouac Night" at LeLacheur
> Park.
> 
> The eight-inch doll features Kerouac holding a pen and notebook and standing
> on a copy of "On The Road," his best-known work.
> 
> "It's unusual, to say the least, to have a sports team get involved with a
> literary figure," said Hilary Holladay, director of the Kerouac Conference
> on Beat Literature.
> 
> Before he was a writer, Kerouac was a baseball fan and athlete. He excelled
> in football and track at Lowell High School, spent the winter of 1942 as a
> sportswriter for The Sun of Lowell, and played football at Columbia.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From hruggier  Wed Jul 30 09:01:51 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:01:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gotta have one
References: <20030729230120.99C483FCE@sitemail.everyone.net> <002601c3562f$53848030$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <3F27C1BE.16AF710@localnet.com>

I gotta have one too.

Has anybody read the book of Kerouac Haiku?

Long Island Chinese Rain Poem

Nobody in the chair
Nobody in the books
Nobody in the rain

Empty baseball field
a robin
hops along the bench

Crossing the football field
coming home from work--
the lonely businessman



TheOldMole wrote:

> LOWELL, Massachusetts (AP) -- A homegrown literary icon will be remembered
> next month with an honor usually reserved for sports figures: a bobblehead
> doll.
>
> The first 1,000 fans at the August 21 game between the Lowell Spinners and
> Williamsport Crosscutters of the Class A New York-Penn League will receive
> bobbing likenesses of Jack Kerouac.
>
> The giveaway, in partnership with the English department at the University
> of Massachusetts at Lowell, is part of "Jack Kerouac Night" at LeLacheur
> Park.
>
> The eight-inch doll features Kerouac holding a pen and notebook and standing
> on a copy of "On The Road," his best-known work.
>
> "It's unusual, to say the least, to have a sports team get involved with a
> literary figure," said Hilary Holladay, director of the Kerouac Conference
> on Beat Literature.
>
> Before he was a writer, Kerouac was a baseball fan and athlete. He excelled
> in football and track at Lowell High School, spent the winter of 1942 as a
> sportswriter for The Sun of Lowell, and played football at Columbia.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From DICK  Wed Jul 30 09:45:25 2003
From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 03 09:45:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] John Ashbery's birthday
Message-ID: <200307301355.h6UDtOJr166328@northrelay02.pok.ibm.com>

I guess I'm not all that quick - I don't get your comment
at all.  The room dreamt isn't the "here." But so what -
it's a little joke - except at a reading, the the audience
of the poem is never "here."

And isn't Ashbery always "having" the reader?

R.
>>
>>Jim Cervantes wrote:
>>
>>
>>If you forget the first line by the time you get to the end, then
>>there's a mild surprise.  If you remember the first line, then you
>>should feel you've been had.
>>
>>- Jim
>>
DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com wrote:
>
> He must be slowing down -- I stayed with him for this one.
>    or am I speeding up?
>
> Richard
>
> >>It was John Ashbery's birthday yesterday--he is a day over 76.  But why do I
> >>tell you these things?  You are not even here. . . .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>This Room
> >>
> >>
> >>The room I entered was a dream of this room.
> >>Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
> >>The oval portrait
> >>of a dog was me at an early age.
> >>Something shimmers, something is hushed up.
> >>
> >>We had macaroni for lunch every day
> >>except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
> >>to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
> >>You are not even here.
> >>
> >>-- by John Ashbery from *Your Name Here* (Farrar, Straus, and Giroux).



From jvcervantes  Wed Jul 30 15:05:53 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:05:53 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] John Ashbery's birthday
References: <200307301355.h6UDtOJr166328@northrelay02.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <3F281711.9748F11E@earthlink.net>

"The room I entered was a dream of this room." = In a dreamed room
"You are not even here." = Reader/person addressed was not in the dream.
And, of course, one is pulled into the poem/dream room and then negated.
It's a trick.  And a conceit.

- Jim

p.s. - and not rewarding

DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com wrote:
> 
> I guess I'm not all that quick - I don't get your comment
> at all.  The room dreamt isn't the "here." But so what -
> it's a little joke - except at a reading, the the audience
> of the poem is never "here."
> 
> And isn't Ashbery always "having" the reader?
> 
> R.
> >>
> >>Jim Cervantes wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>If you forget the first line by the time you get to the end, then
> >>there's a mild surprise.  If you remember the first line, then you
> >>should feel you've been had.
> >>
> >>- Jim
> >>
> DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com wrote:
> >
> > He must be slowing down -- I stayed with him for this one.
> >    or am I speeding up?
> >
> > Richard
> >
> > >>It was John Ashbery's birthday yesterday--he is a day over 76.  But why do I
> > >>tell you these things?  You are not even here. . . .
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>This Room
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>The room I entered was a dream of this room.
> > >>Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
> > >>The oval portrait
> > >>of a dog was me at an early age.
> > >>Something shimmers, something is hushed up.
> > >>
> > >>We had macaroni for lunch every day
> > >>except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
> > >>to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
> > >>You are not even here.
> > >>
> > >>-- by John Ashbery from *Your Name Here* (Farrar, Straus, and Giroux).
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard  Thu Jul 31 11:11:55 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:11:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Thursday"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEIEHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Thursday

I began to despair. One would need to be both blind
and deaf to misunderstand me. That girl who was raped,
some said she had no one but herself to blame.
The ferry was late, and, if it hadn't been late, we

would have missed it. Do you want to cross the street here,
or should we go on to the crosswalk at the corner?
How many ways are there to spell "Shostakovich"?
At low tide we can get out to the island on foot.

I shave every day, whether it's raining or not. No cars
allowed beyond this point. He often asked questions just to
strike up an acquaintance with strangers, even if he
already knew their answers. Please accept my apologies.

It took a hundred million years to make this island,
and now look what's become of it.


Hal        

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From paul.lake  Thu Jul 31 11:55:24 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 10:55:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
Message-ID: <BB4EA61B.51E0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Just saw this news item about my state and an "illegal poem." Many poets on
this list defended Baraka's controversial 9/11 poem--or at least his right
to read and publish it without being fired from his post of poet laureate of
New Jersey. What do list members think of the following situation? How
important is the literary quality of the poem in question? Many people found
Baraka's poem to be a tired rant, yet defended his right to remain in his
job. What about the individual below, who was fired?

Paul Lake



?? 'Illegal Poem' 
????The top emergency official in Arkansas resigned yesterday for sending
his 66 employees an e-mail poem making fun of immigrants and welfare
recipients, the Associated Press reports.
????Gov. Mike Huckabee's office said that it accepted W.R. "Bud" Harper's
apology and resignation.
????"The forwarded e-mail was neither humorous nor acceptable," Mr. Huckabee
said. 
????"In spite of all best intentions and dedication, we sometimes make
mistakes," Mr. Harper, 72, said in a letter announcing his resignation as
director of the Arkansas Department of Emergency Management. "Some of these
mistakes are so simple that it seems unreal that they can carry us into a
situation I must now address."
????Mr. Harper said earlier that he received the verse, titled "Illegal
Poem," from someone else and sent it along because he found it humorous.
????Among the poem's lines: "Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
Medicaid, it keeps you healthy." Another line accuses immigrants of bilking
the system: "By and by, I got plenty of money, Thanks to you American
dummy." 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From tadrichards  Thu Jul 31 12:21:11 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:21:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
References: <BB4EA61B.51E0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <003e01c3577f$c1562fe0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

I don't know that the poetry is the issue here. The guy probably would have
been pressured to resign in the same fashon if he had passed on a prose
e-mail making the same tired jokes about immigrants and welfare recipients.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 11:55 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem


Just saw this news item about my state and an "illegal poem." Many poets on
this list defended Baraka's controversial 9/11 poem--or at least his right
to read and publish it without being fired from his post of poet laureate of
New Jersey. What do list members think of the following situation? How
important is the literary quality of the poem in question? Many people found
Baraka's poem to be a tired rant, yet defended his right to remain in his
job. What about the individual below, who was fired?

Paul Lake



'Illegal Poem'
The top emergency official in Arkansas resigned yesterday for sending
his 66 employees an e-mail poem making fun of immigrants and welfare
recipients, the Associated Press reports.
Gov. Mike Huckabee's office said that it accepted W.R. "Bud" Harper's
apology and resignation.
"The forwarded e-mail was neither humorous nor acceptable," Mr. Huckabee
said.
"In spite of all best intentions and dedication, we sometimes make
mistakes," Mr. Harper, 72, said in a letter announcing his resignation as
director of the Arkansas Department of Emergency Management. "Some of these
mistakes are so simple that it seems unreal that they can carry us into a
situation I must now address."
Mr. Harper said earlier that he received the verse, titled "Illegal
Poem," from someone else and sent it along because he found it humorous.
Among the poem's lines: "Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
Medicaid, it keeps you healthy." Another line accuses immigrants of bilking
the system: "By and by, I got plenty of money, Thanks to you American
dummy."

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From paul.lake  Thu Jul 31 13:14:22 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:14:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
In-Reply-To: <003e01c3577f$c1562fe0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <BB4EB89E.51E5%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 7/31/03 11:21 AM, TheOldMole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:

> I don't know that the poetry is the issue here. The guy probably would have
> been pressured to resign in the same fashon if he had passed on a prose
> e-mail making the same tired jokes about immigrants and welfare recipients.

True, Tad, but I think the questions misses the point. If Baraka had written
a prose poem--one might even argue that his lines WERE fragmented
prose--would that have made a difference regarding his right to free speech
while holding a public office? Should passing along a piece of badly written
satirical doggerel be an offence worthy of firing or forced resignation? The
lines quoted in the little news snippet are hardly deathless poetry, but
neither are they as strongly worded as, say, certain anti-Semitic lines by
Eliot or Baraka.

If the two lines the article quotes are representative of the poem, are they
beyond the acceptable realm of political discourse?

"Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
Medicaid, it keeps you healthy."

"By and by, I got plenty of money,
Thanks to you American dummy."

What do others think?

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 31 13:47:27 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 10:47:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
References: <BB4EB89E.51E5%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F29562E.FA61F244@earthlink.net>


Paul Lake wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> If the two lines the article quotes are representative of the poem, are they
> beyond the acceptable realm of political discourse?
> 
> "Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
> Medicaid, it keeps you healthy."
> 
> "By and by, I got plenty of money,
> Thanks to you American dummy."

Paul, I'm so weary of the mentality behind those lines that I just don't
give a shit.

- Jim



From paul.lake  Thu Jul 31 13:48:44 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:48:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
In-Reply-To: <3F29562E.FA61F244@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BB4EC0AC.51EA%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 7/31/03 12:47 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> 
> Paul Lake wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> If the two lines the article quotes are representative of the poem, are they
>> beyond the acceptable realm of political discourse?
>> 
>> "Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
>> Medicaid, it keeps you healthy."
>> 
>> "By and by, I got plenty of money,
>> Thanks to you American dummy."
> 
> Paul, I'm so weary of the mentality behind those lines that I just don't
> give a shit.
> 
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
Jim, I understand the sentiment, but by withdrawing from the discussion, you
leave it to others to decide what is acceptable speech.

Paul

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From halvard  Thu Jul 31 13:40:58 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:40:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
In-Reply-To: <BB4EC0AC.51EA%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEIOHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

That is, you leave the defining up to folks like me, Jim.

Illegal poem = one written without poetic license.

Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
            taken and to whom nothing must be given."
                         --Anna Akhmatova

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From mandolin  Thu Jul 31 14:27:47 2003
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:27:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
Message-ID: <923687.1059676067880.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 11:55AM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:

>Just saw this news item about my state and an "illegal poem." Many poets on
>this list defended Baraka's controversial 9/11 poem--or at least his right
>to read and publish it without being fired from his post of poet laureate of
>New Jersey. What do list members think of the following situation? How
>important is the literary quality of the poem in question? Many people found
>Baraka's poem to be a tired rant, yet defended his right to remain in his
>job. What about the individual below, who was fired?

This guy used company resources to send offensive email--a firable offense almost everywhere, and one not protected by the First Amendment. In many places, you can be fired for /any/ personal use of company resources.  If he had used his home computer and his own ISP, he'd probably have been able to fight the firing, as did the former Intel employee whose name I can't remember (cost him a bundle and years of his life, though).

I'm not even sure that Baraka's case is a First Amendment issue--no one tried to prevent the publication of that incredibly stupid poem--at least parts of it were reprinted many more times than anything else of his, and it's probably generated more income for Baraka because of the flap than it otherwise would have. He can still write whatever poems he wishes and publish them wherever an editor will buy them. He just can't do it as the official poet of the state of New Jersey. Now he can do it as the man who bravely stood up to the state of New Jersey. Yuck.

Best,

Michael



From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 31 14:44:40 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:44:40 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEIOHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F296398.BA8A30D5@earthlink.net>

Oh.  I thought an illegal poem was one that went over 60 iams per
minute.  If you're talking to this Jim, that is.

- this Jim

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> That is, you leave the defining up to folks like me, Jim.
> 
> Illegal poem = one written without poetic license.
> 
> Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
>             taken and to whom nothing must be given."
>                          --Anna Akhmatova
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 31 14:47:41 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:47:41 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
References: <BB4EC0AC.51EA%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F29644D.557085AF@earthlink.net>


Paul Lake wrote:
> 
> on 7/31/03 12:47 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Paul Lake wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If the two lines the article quotes are representative of the poem, are they
> >> beyond the acceptable realm of political discourse?
> >>
> >> "Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
> >> Medicaid, it keeps you healthy."
> >>
> >> "By and by, I got plenty of money,
> >> Thanks to you American dummy."
> >
> > Paul, I'm so weary of the mentality behind those lines that I just don't
> > give a shit.
> >
> > - Jim
> > ______________________> >
> Jim, I understand the sentiment, but by withdrawing from the discussion, you
> leave it to others to decide what is acceptable speech.
> 
> Paul

All speech is acceptable as long as no one gets hurt in any manner. 
Getting offended is another matter.  I get offended almost any time I
look at a television.  Or hear doggerel passed off as poetry.  But what
the hey . . .

- Jim



From bobgrumman  Thu Jul 31 14:56:39 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:56:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
References: <BB4EA61B.51E0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <016b01c35795$7a081700$94c0fea9@j1c1k6>



'Illegal Poem'
The top emergency official in Arkansas resigned yesterday for sending
his 66 employees an e-mail poem making fun of immigrants and welfare
recipients, the Associated Press reports.
Gov. Mike Huckabee's office said that it accepted W.R. "Bud" Harper's
apology and resignation.
"The forwarded e-mail was neither humorous nor acceptable," Mr. Huckabee
said.
"In spite of all best intentions and dedication, we sometimes make
mistakes," Mr. Harper, 72, said in a letter announcing his resignation as
director of the Arkansas Department of Emergency Management. "Some of these
mistakes are so simple that it seems unreal that they can carry us into a
situation I must now address."
Mr. Harper said earlier that he received the verse, titled "Illegal
Poem," from someone else and sent it along because he found it humorous.
Among the poem's lines: "Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
Medicaid, it keeps you healthy." Another line accuses immigrants of bilking
the system: "By and by, I got plenty of money, Thanks to you American
dummy."

**I suppose he should have been fired for not realizing that government
officials are assholes.

--Bob G.




From halvard  Thu Jul 31 15:46:26 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:46:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
In-Reply-To: <3F296398.BA8A30D5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEJBHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

That, Jim, be a typo down below, don't it? I mean, you must
mean "iambs," since iams be kibbles for kitties or woofies.
Nother Jim around here?

Hal, the just
  
{    Oh.  I thought an illegal poem was one that went over 60 iams per
{    minute.  If you're talking to this Jim, that is.
{    
{    - this Jim
{    
{    Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    > 
{    > That is, you leave the defining up to folks like me, Jim.
{    > 
{    > Illegal poem = one written without poetic license.
{    > 
{    > Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
{    >             taken and to whom nothing must be given."
{    >                          --Anna Akhmatova
{    > 
{    > Halvard Johnson
{    > ===============
{    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    > 
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 31 16:41:25 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:41:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEJBHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F297EF5.D2E2F57E@earthlink.net>

Caught.

- Jim

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> That, Jim, be a typo down below, don't it? I mean, you must
> mean "iambs," since iams be kibbles for kitties or woofies.
> Nother Jim around here?
> 
> Hal, the just
> 
> {    Oh.  I thought an illegal poem was one that went over 60 iams per
> {    minute.  If you're talking to this Jim, that is.
> {
> {    - this Jim
> {
> {    Halvard Johnson wrote:
> {    >
> {    > That is, you leave the defining up to folks like me, Jim.
> {    >
> {    > Illegal poem = one written without poetic license.
> {    >
> {    > Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
> {    >             taken and to whom nothing must be given."
> {    >                          --Anna Akhmatova
> {    >
> {    > Halvard Johnson
> {    > ===============
> {    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
> {    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> {    >
> {    > _______________________________________________
> {    > New-Poetry mailing list
> {    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> {    _______________________________________________
> {    New-Poetry mailing list
> {    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard  Thu Jul 31 17:22:10 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:22:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
In-Reply-To: <3F297EF5.D2E2F57E@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEJCHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Think of it as being kibbleized.

Hal

{    Caught.
{    
{    - Jim
{    
{    Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    > 
{    > That, Jim, be a typo down below, don't it? I mean, you must
{    > mean "iambs," since iams be kibbles for kitties or woofies.
{    > Nother Jim around here?
{    > 
{    > Hal, the just
{    > 
{    > {    Oh.  I thought an illegal poem was one that went over 60 iams per
{    > {    minute.  If you're talking to this Jim, that is.
{    > {
{    > {    - this Jim
{    > {
{    > {    Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    > {    >
{    > {    > That is, you leave the defining up to folks like me, Jim.
{    > {    >
{    > {    > Illegal poem = one written without poetic license.
{    > {    >
{    > {    > Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
{    > {    >             taken and to whom nothing must be given."
{    > {    >                          --Anna Akhmatova
{    > {    >
{    > {    > Halvard Johnson
{    > {    > ===============
{    > {    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > {    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    > {    >
{    > {    > _______________________________________________
{    > {    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > {    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > {    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    > {    _______________________________________________
{    > {    New-Poetry mailing list
{    > {    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > {    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    > 
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From kpaul  Tue Jul 29 18:54:09 2003
From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:54:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] [nosense] nonsense
In-Reply-To: <013f01c3561d$7b659100$e41c2dd5@anny>
References: <013f01c3561d$7b659100$e41c2dd5@anny>
Message-ID: <20030729175012.S39088@kpaul.spinweb.net>

twinkling twinkling once upon a time
king said to prez
or was it prez to king?
(and the world shuddered)
and king one-upped prez
or did the prez one-up king?
(and the world shuttered)

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> twittering twittering in the night
>
> din said to don
>
> or was it don to din?
>
> (and he whispered in his ears)
>
> and don answered to din
>
> or was it din to don?
>
> (and he whispered in his ears)
>
> twittering twittering in the night
>
>
>



From JackTar  Tue Jul  1 02:46:50 2003
From: JackTar (JackTar at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 02:46:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] for the Liberators
Message-ID: <12e.2d44eaf0.2c32885a@aol.com>

In a message dated 6/28/2003 9:09:59 AM Central Standard Time, 
gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes:

> This for the GOP poets of New-Poetry from Texas and Rhode Island and 
> anywhere else yall come from who *still* insist, following the 19th Century 
> doctrine of Liberal Intervention insisted upon by a senile JS Mill, that 
> US-UK forces have "liberated" the Iraqi people (who clearly don't want to 
> be liberated or bombed into an oil colony masquerading as a democracy) 

photographs turn yellow,
and times they come and go

terrry allen
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From jvcervantes  Tue Jul  1 18:29:49 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:29:49 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
Message-ID: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net>

Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia

http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm

============

Interesting, and fodder for several threads.

- Jim



From bobgrumman  Tue Jul  1 20:33:39 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:33:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <006b01c34031$95ba5e20$144efea9@j1c1k6>


> Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia
>
> http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm
>
> ============
>
> Interesting, and fodder for several threads.
>
> - Jim

It seems to me just a re-write of his Atlantic piece--but I skimmed it, so
may have missed something.  Perhaps one difference is that he's trying
harder now to foster an alliance between the neo-formalists and the spoken
worders, rap artists, etc. against "literary" or "university-centered"
poetry.  He did (wow!) mention visual poetry (with little hint he has much
idea what it is)--but said nothing that I noticed about cyber-poetry, by
whatever name.  My impression is that he's even further behind the times
than he was when he wrote the Atlantic piece.

--Bob G.




From jnewberry1974  Wed Jul  2 07:43:14 2003
From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 04:43:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
In-Reply-To: <006b01c34031$95ba5e20$144efea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <20030702114314.6211.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com>

Bob,
 
Perhaps you read a different piece.  Claiming that "Disappearing Ink" is a retread of "Can Poetry Matter" suggests that you not only didn't read "Disppearing Ink" very closely, but also suggests that you're not thinking; it suggests that you're being dismissive.
 
You offer nothing to back up your claims that Gioia is, by your universal standards, "behind the times."  You offer nothing to back up your claims.
 
His mentioning "university-centered poetry" doesn't mean that the essay is about "university-centered poetry."  Go back and reread.  If you skimmed it, you skimmed only a few paragraphs, it seems.
 
The fact that you disagree with Dana Gioia doesn't dismiss everything that he writes.  
 
I've always enjoyed your posts to this list, and I find most of what you say fascinating--its new and outside the status quo.  But this dismissal of Gioia seems out of character for you.
 
Sincerely,
 
Jeff Newberry

Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


> Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia
>
> http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm
>
> ============
>
> Interesting, and fodder for several threads.
>
> - Jim

It seems to me just a re-write of his Atlantic piece--but I skimmed it, so
may have missed something. Perhaps one difference is that he's trying
harder now to foster an alliance between the neo-formalists and the spoken
worders, rap artists, etc. against "literary" or "university-centered"
poetry. He did (wow!) mention visual poetry (with little hint he has much
idea what it is)--but said nothing that I noticed about cyber-poetry, by
whatever name. My impression is that he's even further behind the times
than he was when he wrote the Atlantic piece.

--Bob G.

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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From jvcervantes  Wed Jul  2 08:20:10 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 05:20:10 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <20030702114314.6211.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3F02CDF9.D674935D@earthlink.net>

Well, Bob did write that he "skimmed it."  Gioia is not "behind the
times," nor is he ahead of the times.  I think his general assessment
fits the moment quite well.

More later.  Maybe.

- Jim

p.s. - Jeff, your message wouldn't automatically quote for some reason.

Jeff Newberry wrote:


Bob,
 
Perhaps you read a different piece.  Claiming that "Disappearing Ink" is
a retread of "Can Poetry Matter"
suggests that you not only didn't read "Disppearing Ink" very closely,
but also suggests that you're not
thinking; it suggests that you're being dismissive.
 
You offer nothing to back up your claims that Gioia is, by your
universal standards, "behind the times."  You
offer nothing to back up your claims.
 
His mentioning "university-centered poetry" doesn't mean that the essay
is about "university-centered
poetry."  Go back and reread.  If you skimmed it, you skimmed only a few
paragraphs, it seems.
 
The fact that you disagree with Dana Gioia doesn't dismiss everything
that he writes.  
 
I've always enjoyed your posts to this list, and I find most of what you
say fascinating--its new and outside
the status quo.  But this dismissal of Gioia seems out of character for you.
 
Sincerely,
 
Jeff Newberry



From bobgrumman  Wed Jul  2 09:24:17 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:24:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <20030702114314.6211.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <009601c3409d$3e0a2040$e0a0fea9@j1c1k6>

I feel I read enough of Gioia's essay to give an opinion on it.  
And it was an opinion I gave, not a reasoned review.  My impression is that he repeated his standard preference for non-academic poetry over university-centered poetry, and his disdain for poems that critics like because they can discuss it intricately, and his alliance with the populist poets, and his lip-service to language poetry--and visual poetry (about which he clearly knows just about nothing)--and apparent complete lack of interest in just about all the other newer forms of poetry.  He also repeated his baloney about how poetry lost its popularity (this time bringing in James Whitcomb Riley and his state's celebrating his birthday, instead of Tennyson and the crowds following him, wasn't it, last time?) and how we should try to get it back.  I just didn't see anything new in what he said, anywhere.  Frankly, as I read, then skimmed, I thought, this guy is just too lightweight to bother with.  But if the mood strikes me, maybe I'll say more.

Incidentally, I wonder if anyone would have complained about my not backing up my claims if I had said, "Gioia's essay is terrific.  He certainly knows contemporary poetry well."

--Bob G.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jeff Newberry 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 7:43 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "


  Bob,

  Perhaps you read a different piece.  Claiming that "Disappearing Ink" is a retread of "Can Poetry Matter" suggests that you not only didn't read "Disppearing Ink" very closely, but also suggests that you're not thinking; it suggests that you're being dismissive.

  You offer nothing to back up your claims that Gioia is, by your universal standards, "behind the times."  You offer nothing to back up your claims.

  His mentioning "university-centered poetry" doesn't mean that the essay is about "university-centered poetry."  Go back and reread.  If you skimmed it, you skimmed only a few paragraphs, it seems.

  The fact that you disagree with Dana Gioia doesn't dismiss everything that he writes.  

  I've always enjoyed your posts to this list, and I find most of what you say fascinating--its new and outside the status quo.  But this dismissal of Gioia seems out of character for you.

  Sincerely,

  Jeff Newberry

  Bob Grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


    > Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia
    >
    > http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm
    >
    > ============
    >
    > Interesting, and fodder for several threads.
    >
    > - Jim

    It seems to me just a re-write of his Atlantic piece--but I skimmed it, so
    may have missed something. Perhaps one difference is that he's trying
    harder now to foster an alliance between the neo-formalists and the spoken
    worders, rap artists, etc. against "literary" or "university-centered"
    poetry. He did (wow!) mention visual poetry (with little hint he has much
    idea what it is)--but said nothing that I noticed about cyber-poetry, by
    whatever name. My impression is that he's even further behind the times
    than he was when he wrote the Atlantic piece.

    --Bob G.

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Do you Yahoo!?
  SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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From bobgrumman  Wed Jul  2 09:44:11 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:44:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <20030702114314.6211.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> <3F02CDF9.D674935D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <009e01c340a0$059b1360$e0a0fea9@j1c1k6>

> Well, Bob did write that he "skimmed it."  Gioia is not "behind the
> times," nor is he ahead of the times.  I think his general assessment
> fits the moment quite well.

I suppose it's a matter of whose moment his assessment fits.  One way I'd
put it is that he's like a theatre critic who knows Broadway well, and
off-Broadway pretty well, but only knows the names of two off-off-Broadway
theatres, and doesn't realize regional theatres exist.  Has he ever written
anything that indicates he knows anything at all about language poetry?  And
language poetry is practically mainstream now.  Certainly it has been quite
visible for 20 years now.

> More later.  Maybe.
>
> - Jim

As I just said in my reply to Jeff Newberry, I may, too.  One reason I may
not is that I have nothing new to say on the topic, myself.  I do have one
point to make, though, and that is that I see no reason why the general
public should have any greater interest in serious poetry than it should
have in serious science, philosophy or music.  Nor do I think it ever has.
Not that I don't believe serious poetry can sometimes appeal even to average
people, and hope that some of mine does.  I believe in aiming my work at its
best possible readers, though.

--Bob G.




From JackTar  Thu Jul  3 01:23:13 2003
From: JackTar (JackTar at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 01:23:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jaggy Stuff
Message-ID: <1a0.1757d207.2c3517c1@aol.com>

Battle Song - Jaggy Stuff.

(Ode to?)

?

?????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????? He looked at himself in 
the glacey mirror??????? (?glacey?, cold- franglais->glassy)

And what he saw was war and terror.

He looked again and remembered his dream

His franglais, mixed, shone not quite clean,

As the laser beam, sharp and unbent

Highly directional, monochromatic, coherent

Bringing secour, help and relief at last.

?

He looked at his dream as a man afar, vast

Like the antimatter in the quantum glass,

Present and past in one place on the cross.

Which door was number three? Right? No left.

Upon opening was a man, on the table edge deft,

Behind young cronies drinking merry.

I left this boat, suffocating ferry.

?

It was night but the day was dawning.

I breathed afresh the new belief spawning

I looked and saw, I listened and heard

A voice from the other side, (Adams) said

-Cried out, Morin is dead. I half awoke????????????? 

In the grey and an idea broke,

untwining the ?frangais? laser clear.

?

?Mort? in! ?Death in?, is dead, reborn hear!

?

I left my long commatic state

To breath again, with life a date.

?

J. Alexander (about12/12/98).

Copyright ? J.A.

( Scanned and punctuated 15/12/2001-8/01/2002 Ed.19/03/2003).

?



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From jvcervantes  Thu Jul  3 21:24:26 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2003 18:24:26 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
Message-ID: <3F04D74A.8EE3F2D9@earthlink.net>

Happy Birthday, America!

Molly Ivins, AlterNet
July 3, 2003

Viewed on July 3, 2003

AUSTIN, Texas -- Happy birthday, America! Two-hundred twenty-seven years
old and still ready to boogie 'til we puke. What a great country.
Another glorious year in the land of the free and the home of the brave,
with only the usual idiocy attendant. 

As you may recall, we are fond of celebrating in this space not the
majesty, not the glory, but the sheer improbable bliss of life in a free
country. Every Fourth, we reserve this space to praise not the mighty,
but to recognize the general, ordinary goodness -- and slight absurdity
-- of all of us regular citizens. Our motto is the poet Marianne Moore's
observation, "It is an honor to witness so much confusion." 

I'd like to begin by thanking rural Texans for their natural assumption
that Osama bin Laden is called "Osama-Bin," as though he had two front
names, like Billy Bob or Jerry Jeff. The virtue czar turned out to be a
gambling addict. The House of Representatives decided to rename French
fries Freedom fries. Fox News calls itself "fair and balanced."
Fifty-one Texas legislators fled to Ardmore, Okla., to break a quorum,
where they were sought by the Homeland Security Department. Bushism of
the Year (so far) on May 19: "First, let me make it very clear, poor
people aren't necessarily killers. Just because you happen to be not
rich doesn't mean you're wiling to kill." In other words, only the
normal lunacy. 

Since I adore people with harmless passions, I'd like to salute the
bicycle racers who cross Iowa -- not to mention Austin's own Lance
Armstrong -- the people who compete in chili cook-offs, the barbecue
competitions, bake-off entrants, backyard grillers and the judges at the
wine-tastings of this great nation. (We know you only sip in the
slightest fashion.) 

Here's to all the Little League baseball coaches, soccer moms,
volleyball mothers, PeeWee Leaguers, Golden Gloves and Special Olympics
participants. Here's to everyone involved in putting on the Mullet Toss,
the Turkey Trot, the Watermelon Thump, the Fire Ant Festival and all the
other civic fandangles that enrich our communal life. 

In saluting highly irregular Americans, we'd like to recognize the
service of the Houston woman who ran over her husband (several times)
because he was cheating on her. That should cut down on adultery. (The
price of gasoline in Texas has got so high, women who want to run over
their husbands have to carpool.) 

Here's to all the hairdressers who donate free time and service at homes
for the elderly to make the old ladies look great; here's to the
dentists who fix poor kids' teeth for free; here's to everybody who runs
and walks in all those "Runs and Walks for Whatever"; here's to the
Billion Bubba March and the folks in Minnesota who stood outside an
absurdly unscientific speech with duck hats and duck callers to protest
"quack science." 

Here's to everybody who gets together with everybody else to fix
whatever-it-is, and has fun doingit -- citizen activists are the soul of
this country. 

I'd also like to speak to you this Fourth about patriotism. We've got
some patriots here who are enough to give the word a bad name. Their
ugly side is always brought out by war: the
professional-patriot bullies have never been able to distinguish between
dissent and disloyalty. In WWI, we had citizens who used to go around
kicking dachshunds, on the grounds that they were "German dogs." You
notice people like that never go around kicking German shepherds. 

John Henry Faulk's late Cousin Eddie was an unreconstructed reactionary.
He had a sign over his mantel that said, "Robert E. Lee Might've Give
Up, But I Ain't." When Johnny challenged Eddie during Vietnam, saying
dissent was part of patriotism, Eddie replied, "Dis-sent? Hell, yes, I
believe in the right to dis-sent! H'it's in the Constitution! What I
can't stand is all this criticism! Criticize, criticize, criticize. Why
don't they just leave Lyndon alone and let him fight his war in peace?" 

The current situation in Iraq reminds me of yet another of Cousin
Eddie's immortal observations, "If them Veetnamese don't like what we're
doin' for 'em, why don't they just go back where they come from?" 

On the whole, I prefer not to be lectured on patriotism by those who
keep offshore maildrops in order to avoid paying their taxes. 

But let's leave contention aside for a day and celebrate us. Among my
favorite harmless passions is birdwatching, and I recently had the
opportunity to bird (it is a verb in those circles) a bit in Idaho.
Naturally, I had no idea what I was doing -- wound up admiring a yellow
leaf for several minutes under the impression it was an oriole, missed
several eagles and would have ignored a burrowing owl had it not swooped
in front of my face. 

At one point, as were looking into the Snake Canyon, a flock of
something startled out from just underneath us. "What the hell was
that?" I cried. I cannot tell you the perfect courtesy with which the
closest birder turned, utterly deadpan, and replied, "Pigeons." Don't
tell me Americans have no manners. 

I'd like to salute Bubba for the usual number of flat tires he has
stopped to help people with this year. This reminds me to salute the
weekly, half-hour cable TV program dedicated solely to extra stuff you
can buy for your pick-up. Also a perennial fave, the cable show "Working
Out for Jesus With Beverly," about Christian fitness. I suspect Ken
Starr, who reports singing hymns while he jogs, is a devotee. 

A special salute to dog-lovers, cat-lovers, bird-lovers and
animal-lovers generally. Bridge-players, golfers, people who have their
palms read, Jennie Craig dieters, quilters, self-improvers everywhere,
people who take salsa and line-dancing classes, home-tomato-growers,
everybody whose garden produces too much zucchini (something to knit us
together in this variegated nation) and those who are found at the Jiffy
Mart at 2 a.m., buying stuff that is bad for their health. I love you
all. It is, still, a great nation. 

Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist who lives in Texas.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16327



From Rsgwynn1  Fri Jul  4 00:53:23 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 00:53:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
Message-ID: <1e6.c840449.2c366243@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/3/2003 8:25:36 PM Central Standard Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: 
> Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist who lives in Texas.
> 
And a professional cynic who lives in Austin.
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From jvcervantes  Fri Jul  4 09:47:28 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 06:47:28 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
Message-ID: <3F05856F.6E468635@earthlink.net>

 In a message dated 7/3/2003 8:25:36 PM Central Standard Time,
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: 
>> 
>>         Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist who lives in Texas.
>> 
> 
> And a professional cynic who lives in Austin.

Sam, you know there's a whole 'nother Texas and a whole 'nother Texas
and a whole 'nother Texas.

- Jim



From halvard  Fri Jul  4 10:09:05 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 10:09:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: A group on the 4th
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEFOGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Five A.M.

Street by street the lights go out, and the night turns gray,
	bringing respite to this and to all other agencies,
With the gears of commerce unmeshed and stopped, the
	channels of communication slowed and stilled
(Radio, ticker, and spirit control)--

Bringing peace, briefly, to the members of the board and
	bench and staff,
Sleep, for a space, to the journeymen of the switchboard and
	the dictaphone,
Rest to the lieutenants of steel, and wool, and coal, and
	wheat,
And to the envoys from abroad (Her Majesty's, His
	Excellency's, and the mysterious Mr. X),
And to the representatives of the people (both houses), and to
	the vicars of the Lord (conformist and dissident)
And to the inspectors of the arson, forgery, bomb, and
	homicide squads--

While the crated shipments of this agency (with those of
	others) stand in guarded sheds at Quebec,
Wait for release on rainswept wharves of Shanghai and the Rio,
Move, slowly, from a dark siding in Butte.

--Kenneth Fearing 


A Sort of a Song

Let the snake wait under 
his weed
and the writing
be of words, slow and quick, sharp
to strike, quiet to wait,
sleepless.

--through metaphor to reconcile
the people and the stones.
Compose. (No ideas
but in things) Invent!
Saxifrage is my flower that splits
the rocks.

--William Carlos Williams


A Postcard from the Volcano

Children picking up our bones
Will never know that these were once
As quick as foxes on the hill;

And that in autumn, when the grapes
Made sharp air sharper by their smell
These had a being, breathing frost;

And least will guess that with our bones
We left much more, left what still is
The look of things, left what we felt

At what we saw. The spring clouds blow
Above the shuttered mansion-house,
Beyond our gate and the windy sky

Cries out a literate despair.
We knew for long the mansion's look
And what we said of it became

A part of what it is . . . Children,
Still weaving budding aureoles,
Will speak our speech and never know,

Will say of the mansion that it seems
As if he that lived there left behind
A spirit storming in blank walls,

A dirty house in a gutted world,
A tatter of shadows peaked to white,
Smeared with the gold of the opulent sun.

--Wallace Stevens


Stanzas in Meditation, XXXVIII

Which I wish to say is this
There is no beginning to an end
But there is a beginning and an end
To beginning.
Why yes of course.
Any one can learn that north of course
Is not only north but north as north
Why were they worried.
What I wish to say is this.
Yes of course

--Gertrude Stein



Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From Rsgwynn1  Fri Jul  4 11:48:40 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 11:48:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
Message-ID: <1cd.d118c5c.2c36fbd8@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/4/2003 8:47:51 AM Central Standard Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: 
> 
> >>         Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist who lives in Texas.
> >>
> >
> >And a professional cynic who lives in Austin.
> 
> Sam, you know there's a whole 'nother Texas and a whole 'nother Texas
> and a whole 'nother Texas.
> 
> - Jim

Oh, don't get me wrong.  Ms. Molly is in the right town for sure.
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From jvcervantes  Fri Jul  4 12:36:23 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2003 09:36:23 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
References: <1cd.d118c5c.2c36fbd8@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3F05AD06.E9591D11@earthlink.net>

Sam Gwyn writes: 
> 
> 
>         >>         Molly Ivins is a syndicated columnist who lives in Texas.
>         >>
>         >
>         >And a professional cynic who lives in Austin.
> 
>         Sam, you know there's a whole 'nother Texas and a whole 'nother Texas
>         and a whole 'nother Texas.
> 
>         - Jim
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, don't get me wrong.  Ms. Molly is in the right town for sure. 

What would happen to Golly Ms. Molly in your neck of the woods?

- Jim



From Rsgwynn1  Fri Jul  4 13:04:46 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 13:04:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
Message-ID: <187.1c5f8808.2c370dae@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/4/2003 11:36:37 AM Central Standard Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: 
> >Oh, don't get me wrong.  Ms. Molly is in the right town for sure. 
> 
> What would happen to Golly Ms. Molly in your neck of the woods?
> 
> - Jim

She might be exposed to a bit more diversity than usual.  Austin is one of 
the most parochial places in the world.
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From ron.silliman  Sun Jul  6 12:17:54 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 12:17:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman & Burger read in Oakland, July 13
Message-ID: <000001c343da$31fb9a50$f272ed41@Dell>

Reading in Oakland, CA
Sunday, July 13
7-9 PM

Mary Burger
Ron Silliman

at the gallery
21 Grand
449B 23rd Street
(between Broadway & Telegraph)
$4 Cover





From ron.silliman  Mon Jul  7 07:53:14 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 07:53:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's blog
Message-ID: <000101c3447e$5d64efd0$15fa8044@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

Spidertangle: the_book
On the margins between poetry
& visual art
come needlepoint & more

Reading "Biotherm"
by Frank O'Hara

Ted Berrigan:
1934-1983
How strange to be gone in a minute!

Robert Lowell
& the process of literary CPR

Reading Carla Harryman:
Situating poetry along new boundaries

Malevich:
Off center, 
thinking with material & shape

What K. Silem Mohammad
has in common with
Mariah Carey

Phaneronoemikon defined

Reading Kiosk 2

Jonathon Wilcke:
Post-Burroughs, Post-Acker pansexualilty
with a glimmer of optimism

Jean Donnelly's Anthem

A history of blogging
(whilst dishing Matt Drudge)

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

*   *   *

Reading in Oakland, CA
Sunday, July 13
7-9 PM

Mary Burger
Ron Silliman

at the gallery
21 Grand
449B 23rd Street
(between Broadway & Telegraph)
$4 Cover






From mmagee  Mon Jul  7 09:41:59 2003
From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon,  7 Jul 2003 09:41:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
In-Reply-To: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1057585319.3f0978a7a1458@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

Hi all,

Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems, _MS_, 
thought it might interest.

-m.

*************

Publisher's Weekly
Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an 
exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into English's 
latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette Mullen 
with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at his peak 
typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real Slim 
Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their CHANNELED 
HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S. history owe as 
much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what Amadou to 
you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"), but not all 
of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible trajectories. Some 
magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the effect of 
a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching for the first 
neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the bank/ like a 
bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word "vagina" 
for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this book are many, 
capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the spareness of 
Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era Hejinian. As 
Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae, he'll have 
more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American culture and 
cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information.



From tadrichards  Mon Jul  7 10:26:10 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 10:26:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com> <1057585319.3f0978a7a1458@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <005901c34493$b73f5c10$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Wait -- I believe they forgot to compare you to Whitman, Felix the Cat,
Nixon and Scaramouche.

Tad



----- Original Message ----- 
From: <mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:41 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS


> Hi all,
>
> Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems, _MS_,
> thought it might interest.
>
> -m.
>
> *************
>
> Publisher's Weekly
> Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an
> exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into English's
> latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette
Mullen
> with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at his
peak
> typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real Slim
> Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their
CHANNELED
> HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S. history owe
as
> much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what Amadou
to
> you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"), but not
all
> of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible trajectories.
Some
> magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the
effect of
> a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching for the
first
> neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the bank/
like a
> bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word
"vagina"
> for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this book are
many,
> capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the spareness
of
> Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era Hejinian. As
> Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae, he'll have
> more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American culture and
> cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From mmagee  Mon Jul  7 10:34:20 2003
From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Mon,  7 Jul 2003 10:34:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
In-Reply-To: <005901c34493$b73f5c10$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com> <1057585319.3f0978a7a1458@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <005901c34493$b73f5c10$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <1057588460.3f0984ec7966e@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

Well, I *am* not a crook, nor do I do the fandango, though I do have an 
electric body!  -m.

Quoting TheOldMole <tadrichards at prodigy.net>:

> Wait -- I believe they forgot to compare you to Whitman, Felix the Cat,
> Nixon and Scaramouche.
> 
> Tad
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:41 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
> 
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems, _MS_,
> > thought it might interest.
> >
> > -m.
> >
> > *************
> >
> > Publisher's Weekly
> > Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an
> > exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into English's
> > latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette
> Mullen
> > with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at his
> peak
> > typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real Slim
> > Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their
> CHANNELED
> > HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S. history owe
> as
> > much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what Amadou
> to
> > you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"), but not
> all
> > of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible trajectories.
> Some
> > magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the
> effect of
> > a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching for the
> first
> > neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the bank/
> like a
> > bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word
> "vagina"
> > for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this book are
> many,
> > capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the spareness
> of
> > Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era Hejinian. As
> > Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae, he'll have
> > more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American culture and
> > cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information.
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From bobgrumman  Mon Jul  7 12:05:02 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 12:05:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com> <1057585319.3f0978a7a1458@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <00a701c344a1$871f3a60$66a4fea9@j1c1k6>

Someone at Publisher's Weekly is able to refer to Mullen, Hejinian and
Watten in one short review?!  I'm amazed.  I always thought Publisher's
Weekly as slow to assimilate the new as, say, the New Yorker.  On the other
hand, Mullen, Hejinian and Watten have been around a while, I guess.  Who
wrote the review, do you know, Mike?  Charles B.?

--Bob G.


----- Original Message -----
From: <mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:41 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS


> Hi all,
>
> Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems, _MS_,
> thought it might interest.
>
> -m.
>
> *************
>
> Publisher's Weekly
> Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an
> exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into English's
> latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette
Mullen
> with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at his
peak
> typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real Slim
> Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their
CHANNELED
> HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S. history owe
as
> much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what Amadou
to
> you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"), but not
all
> of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible trajectories.
Some
> magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the
effect of
> a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching for the
first
> neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the bank/
like a
> bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word
"vagina"
> for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this book are
many,
> capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the spareness
of
> Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era Hejinian. As
> Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae, he'll have
> more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American culture and
> cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From paul.lake  Mon Jul  7 12:03:44 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 11:03:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
In-Reply-To: <187.1c5f8808.2c370dae@cs.com>
Message-ID: <BB2F0410.50AF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 7/4/03 12:04 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/4/2003 11:36:37 AM Central Standard Time,
> jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:
>>> >Oh, don't get me wrong.  Ms. Molly is in the right town for sure.
>> 
>> What would happen to Golly Ms. Molly in your neck of the woods?
>> 
>> - Jim
>> 
> 
> She might be exposed to a bit more diversity than usual.  Austin is one of the
> most parochial places in the world.

?In saluting highly irregular Americans, we'd like to recognize the
service of the Houston woman who ran over her husband (several times)
because he was cheating on her. That should cut down on adultery. (The
price of gasoline in Texas has got so high, women who want to run over
their husbands have to carpool.)?

Reverse the sexes and see how funny this is.  The demonstrations begin stage
left. 

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From tadrichards  Mon Jul  7 12:38:37 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 12:38:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
References: <BB2F0410.50AF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <005701c344a6$37517110$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Re: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4thBasically, everyone's definition of parochial is "contains people who don't think the weay we think." My boss at Prodigy, who recently moved to Austin from Fairfield County, CT, and is a hard-core Republican and member of the Second AMendment Sisters, loves it there, and finds an incredible diversity of attitudes.


Tad


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Lake 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 12:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th


  on 7/4/03 12:04 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:


    In a message dated 7/4/2003 11:36:37 AM Central Standard Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: 

      >Oh, don't get me wrong.  Ms. Molly is in the right town for sure. 

      What would happen to Golly Ms. Molly in your neck of the woods?

      - Jim



    She might be exposed to a bit more diversity than usual.  Austin is one of the most parochial places in the world. 


  "In saluting highly irregular Americans, we'd like to recognize the
  service of the Houston woman who ran over her husband (several times)
  because he was cheating on her. That should cut down on adultery. (The
  price of gasoline in Texas has got so high, women who want to run over
  their husbands have to carpool.)"

  Reverse the sexes and see how funny this is.  The demonstrations begin stage left. 
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From halvard  Mon Jul  7 13:31:25 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 13:31:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Benign Virus Appears to Block Bush Strategy"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEJHGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Benign Virus Appears to Block Bush Strategy

Few White House interns or trainees seemed to have any interest
in editing out clich?s or overused visual effects. In fact, very few of them
even came to work wearing a decent suit, or seeming to care
about what happened next. In the screening room, right-wing oil barons

awaited test cores shipped down from Mars and the start of yet another movie
based on superhero comics. "These bad guys are bad," mused one, as the action
got under way. A news team with meat on its bones waited in the corridor?
yes, one of those corridors of power we've heard so much about?

for them to emerge. "What did you think?" asked one, thrusting a mike
toward one of the suits stepping out. "Did it make you feel deeply about
anything at all? Did it make you think?" One said, "That sadist
in the mask?he was really cool." "Evil," said another, "went down

to its traditional defeat." In a conference room down the hall,
the trainees twirled their mustachios as they sought new ways to break
up the logjam of judicial appointments that caused their president
so much grief. "Ben Affleck," one sniffled, "would know what to do."


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From Rsgwynn1  Mon Jul  7 14:00:43 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:00:43 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
Message-ID: <9d.3bafb53b.2c3b0f4b@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/7/2003 11:39:17 AM Central Standard Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: 
> Basically, everyone's definition of parochial is "contains people who don't 
> think the weay we think." My boss at Prodigy, who recently moved to Austin 
> from Fairfield County, CT, and is a hard-core Republican and member of the 
> Second AMendment Sisters, loves it there, and finds an incredible diversity of 
> attitudes.
>   
>   
>  Tad
> 
You're right.  I'm being too hard on the place.  But I wouldn't want to live 
there--too many Yankees transplanted from CT.

I lived in a little town about 25 miles sound from 73-76, and I loved Austin 
then.  But the population has gone through the roof in thirty years.  Back 
then it was a funky town with a lot of good music.  Now it's just urban sprawl.  
Maybe a nicer urban sprawl than most places but sprawl all the same.
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From CobbCoStudioArts  Mon Jul  7 14:13:36 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Benign Virus Appears to Block Bush Strategy"
Message-ID: <20030707181336.9C5873B2E@sitemail.everyone.net>

Hal,

I enjoyed reading "Benign Virus Appears to Block Bush Strategy."
With all of the malingering going on maybe it will become a "malignant
virus."  AFLAK ;-}

Bob

Poetry Catamaran

"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"

Robert R. Cobb
AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
http://rrcobb.tripod.com


--- "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Benign Virus Appears to Block Bush Strategy
>
>Few White House interns or trainees seemed to have any interest
>in editing out clich?s or overused visual effects. In fact, very few of them
>even came to work wearing a decent suit, or seeming to care
>about what happened next. In the screening room, right-wing oil barons
>
>awaited test cores shipped down from Mars and the start of yet another movie
>based on superhero comics. "These bad guys are bad," mused one, as the action
>got under way. A news team with meat on its bones waited in the corridor?
>yes, one of those corridors of power we've heard so much about?
>
>for them to emerge. "What did you think?" asked one, thrusting a mike
>toward one of the suits stepping out. "Did it make you feel deeply about
>anything at all? Did it make you think?" One said, "That sadist
>in the mask?he was really cool." "Evil," said another, "went down
>
>to its traditional defeat." In a conference room down the hall,
>the trainees twirled their mustachios as they sought new ways to break
>up the logjam of judicial appointments that caused their president
>so much grief. "Ben Affleck," one sniffled, "would know what to do."
>
>
>Hal
>
>Halvard Johnson
>===============
>email: halvard at earthlink.net
>website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From tadrichards  Mon Jul  7 14:27:10 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:27:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
References: <9d.3bafb53b.2c3b0f4b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <00ac01c344b5$61115100$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

I can understand. I hate urban sprawl, funky or otherwise.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 2:00 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th


  In a message dated 7/7/2003 11:39:17 AM Central Standard Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: 

    Basically, everyone's definition of parochial is "contains people who don't think the weay we think." My boss at Prodigy, who recently moved to Austin from Fairfield County, CT, and is a hard-core Republican and member of the Second AMendment Sisters, loves it there, and finds an incredible diversity of attitudes.
      
      
    Tad


  You're right.  I'm being too hard on the place.  But I wouldn't want to live there--too many Yankees transplanted from CT.

  I lived in a little town about 25 miles sound from 73-76, and I loved Austin then.  But the population has gone through the roof in thirty years.  Back then it was a funky town with a lot of good music.  Now it's just urban sprawl.  Maybe a nicer urban sprawl than most places but sprawl all the same. 
-------------- next part --------------
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From halvard  Mon Jul  7 14:43:30 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 14:43:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
In-Reply-To: <9d.3bafb53b.2c3b0f4b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEJJGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Sam said:

You're right.  I'm being too hard on the place.  But I wouldn't 
want to live there--too many Yankees transplanted from CT.

I lived in a little town about 25 miles sound from 73-76, and I 
loved Austin then.  But the population has gone through the roof 
in thirty years.  Back then it was a funky town with a lot of good 
music.  Now it's just urban sprawl.  Maybe a nicer urban sprawl 
than most places but sprawl all the same. 

Hal says:

Sniff. Even nostalgia ain't what it used to be.


Hal

Hal     "Once upon a time Baltimore was necessary."
                            --Gertrude Stein
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From anny.ballardini  Mon Jul  7 16:45:48 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 22:45:48 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] light reading for the 4th
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEJJGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <006901c344c8$bf958120$1e607550@anny>

From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> Sam said:
>
> You're right.  I'm being too hard on the place.  But I wouldn't
> want to live there--too many Yankees transplanted from CT.
>
> I lived in a little town about 25 miles sound from 73-76, and I
> loved Austin then.  But the population has gone through the roof
> in thirty years.  Back then it was a funky town with a lot of good
> music.  Now it's just urban sprawl.  Maybe a nicer urban sprawl
> than most places but sprawl all the same.
>
> Hal says:
>
> Sniff. Even nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
>
>
> Hal
>
> Hal     "Once upon a time Baltimore was necessary."
>                             --Gertrude Stein
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============

How right you are Hal!

Nor cherries or beans, neither cream of stream, or challenge on the peak,
cigarettes have turned sour
-black is the jack white are condors-
only gossip around the long/brief hour .
anny





From marcus  Tue Jul  8 08:09:01 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 08:09:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
In-Reply-To: <1057588460.3f0984ec7966e@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
References: <005901c34493$b73f5c10$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <3F0A7C1D.23007.2DD1C0@localhost>

But were you "born with the gift of laughter, and a sense the world 
is mad"?

Marcus

On 7 Jul 2003 at 10:34, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote:

> Well, I *am* not a crook, nor do I do the fandango, though I do have an 
> electric body!  -m.
> 
> Quoting TheOldMole <tadrichards at prodigy.net>:
> 
> > Wait -- I believe they forgot to compare you to Whitman, Felix the Cat,
> > Nixon and Scaramouche.
> > 
> > Tad
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: <mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
> > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:41 AM
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
> > 
> > 
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems, _MS_,
> > > thought it might interest.
> > >
> > > -m.
> > >
> > > *************
> > >
> > > Publisher's Weekly
> > > Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an
> > > exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into English's
> > > latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette
> > Mullen
> > > with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at his
> > peak
> > > typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real Slim
> > > Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their
> > CHANNELED
> > > HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S. history owe
> > as
> > > much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what Amadou
> > to
> > > you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"), but not
> > all
> > > of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible trajectories.
> > Some
> > > magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the
> > effect of
> > > a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching for the
> > first
> > > neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the bank/
> > like a
> > > bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word
> > "vagina"
> > > for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this book are
> > many,
> > > capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the spareness
> > of
> > > Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era Hejinian. As
> > > Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae, he'll have
> > > more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American culture and
> > > cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business Information.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From mmagee  Tue Jul  8 08:35:41 2003
From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Tue,  8 Jul 2003 08:35:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
In-Reply-To: <3F0A7C1D.23007.2DD1C0@localhost>
References: <005901c34493$b73f5c10$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3F0A7C1D.23007.2DD1C0@localhost>
Message-ID: <1057667741.3f0aba9d8d578@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

Quoting Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com>:

> But were you "born with the gift of laughter, and a sense the world 
> is mad"?
> 
> Marcus

As my dear old uncle Ed would say, "Does the Pope shit in the woods?"

-m.

> 
> On 7 Jul 2003 at 10:34, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote:
> 
> > Well, I *am* not a crook, nor do I do the fandango, though I do have an 
> > electric body!  -m.
> > 
> > Quoting TheOldMole <tadrichards at prodigy.net>:
> > 
> > > Wait -- I believe they forgot to compare you to Whitman, Felix the Cat,
> > > Nixon and Scaramouche.
> > > 
> > > Tad
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: <mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu>
> > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:41 AM
> > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems,
> _MS_,
> > > > thought it might interest.
> > > >
> > > > -m.
> > > >
> > > > *************
> > > >
> > > > Publisher's Weekly
> > > > Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an
> > > > exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into
> English's
> > > > latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette
> > > Mullen
> > > > with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at
> his
> > > peak
> > > > typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real
> Slim
> > > > Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their
> > > CHANNELED
> > > > HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S. history
> owe
> > > as
> > > > much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what
> Amadou
> > > to
> > > > you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"), but
> not
> > > all
> > > > of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible
> trajectories.
> > > Some
> > > > magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the
> > > effect of
> > > > a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching for
> the
> > > first
> > > > neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the bank/
> > > like a
> > > > bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word
> > > "vagina"
> > > > for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this book
> are
> > > many,
> > > > capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the
> spareness
> > > of
> > > > Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era Hejinian.
> As
> > > > Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae, he'll
> have
> > > > more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American culture
> and
> > > > cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business
> Information.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From tadrichards  Tue Jul  8 08:42:43 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:42:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
References: <005901c34493$b73f5c10$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3F0A7C1D.23007.2DD1C0@localhost>
Message-ID: <002701c3454e$6d461160$6701a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

You couldn't kill...your own brother.

Actually, there's a wonderful line from the movie "Scaramouche" that's
applicable to poets. It's when Stewart Granger is taking fencing lessons
from Mel Ferrer's fencing master, and the master explains to him, "The sword
is like a little bird. Squeeze it too tightly, you choke it. Squeeze it too
lightly, it flies away."

Tad


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS


> But were you "born with the gift of laughter, and a sense the world
> is mad"?
>
> Marcus
>
> On 7 Jul 2003 at 10:34, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote:
>
> > Well, I *am* not a crook, nor do I do the fandango, though I do have an
> > electric body!  -m.
> >
> > Quoting TheOldMole <tadrichards at prodigy.net>:
> >
> > > Wait -- I believe they forgot to compare you to Whitman, Felix the
Cat,
> > > Nixon and Scaramouche.
> > >
> > > Tad
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: <mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu>
> > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:41 AM
> > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Publisher's Weekly review of Magee's MS
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Just discovered Publisher's Weekly's review of my new book of poems,
_MS_,
> > > > thought it might interest.
> > > >
> > > > -m.
> > > >
> > > > *************
> > > >
> > > > Publisher's Weekly
> > > > Following up on last year's Morning Constitutional, Magee forges an
> > > > exaggerated, ludic, punning idiom to propel his lines deep into
English's
> > > > latest incarnations, a sort of "Jive to Juba" scat-talk la Harryette
> > > Mullen
> > > > with the breathless pace, if not quite the soul, of Frank O'Hara at
his
> > > peak
> > > > typewriter-hysteria period: "The belles of St. Mary knell `The Real
Slim
> > > > Shady'/ have made up their minds and are keeping their babies/ their
> > > CHANNELED
> > > > HISTORY Knickerbockers by proxy." Magee's channelings of U.S.
history owe
> > > as
> > > > much to Amiri Baraka and Barrett Watten as they do to Eminem ("what
Amadou
> > > to
> > > > you/ later, cable wires in the white poplar/ a concrete vector"),
but not
> > > all
> > > > of the poems in MS (or, "Manuscript") have such discernible
trajectories.
> > > Some
> > > > magic is lost when the poet seems vainly invested in maintaining the
> > > effect of
> > > > a mind radiantly overloaded with linguistic possibility, reaching
for the
> > > first
> > > > neat pun ("like mallards, like melba/ toast we are/ dying on the
bank/
> > > like a
> > > > bank shot") or throwing in 10 bad jokes (yuck-yucking over the word
> > > "vagina"
> > > > for instance) in lieu of one good one. But the pleasures of this
book are
> > > many,
> > > > capturing the vicissitudes of language, by turns approaching the
spareness
> > > of
> > > > Creeley and the philosophical resonance of Cold of Poetry-era
Hejinian. As
> > > > Magee moves toward more complex, contradictory poetic personae,
he'll have
> > > > more than enough chops to negotiate the minefield of American
culture and
> > > > cultural appropriation. (June) Copyright 2003 Reed Business
Information.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> Marcus Bales
>
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Tue Jul  8 15:49:14 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 15:49:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: John Ashbery, "Honored Guest"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIELDGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Honored Guest

Accept these nice things we have no use for:
polished twilight, mix of clouds and sun,
minnows in a stream. There may come a time
we'll need them. They're yours forever,
or another dream leaves you thirsty,
waking. You can't see the table
or the bread. How about a clean, unopened letter
and the smell of toast?

School is closed today--it's thundering.
The calendar has backed up or been reversed
so the days have no least common denominator.
Anyway, it was fun, trying to figure out
who you were, what it was that led you to us.
Was it the smell of camphor? Or an ad
in an out-of-state newspaper, seeking news
of someone who disappeared long ago?
He was in a uniform, and leaned against a car,
smiling at a girl who seemed to shade her eyes from him.
Can it be? Candace, was it you? There's no way
she'll look our way again.

What can I tell you? Everything's been locked up
for the night, I couldn't get it for you
if I wanted to. But there must be some way--
it's drizzling, the lamps along the path are weeping,
wanting to show you this tremendous thing,
boxed in forever, always getting closer.

--John Ashbery

fr. *Your Name Here *
[New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2000]


Hal        

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From hruggier  Wed Jul  9 09:09:17 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 09:09:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F0C13FD.4B5A8CB2@localnet.com>

Fascinating essay - thanks for posting it.

h

James Cervantes wrote:

> Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia
>
> http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm
>
> ============
>
> Interesting, and fodder for several threads.
>
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Wed Jul  9 10:15:05 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 07:15:05 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net> <3F0C13FD.4B5A8CB2@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <3F0C236A.3CCCD5DA@earthlink.net>

I was going to comment on it but got distracted being on a hiring
committee and writing revised budgets for two grants I wrote for our lit
festival.  Sigh.  You know how out of touch we academics can get.

At any rate, it was an interesting perspective though
Eminem/Minima/Enema got more print time than a pouting, angst-ridden,
suburban punk should get.  What bugged me was that Gioia gave more
credence to performance poetry, rap, slams (1st cousin to rap), and
cowboy poetry as with-it modes of reaching an audience.  He barely gave
a nod to what is available on the internet.  Maybe that's because it
still has to be read?

- Jim

Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> 
> Fascinating essay - thanks for posting it.
> 
> h
> 
> James Cervantes wrote:
> 
> > Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia
> >
> > http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm
> >
> > ============
> >
> > Interesting, and fodder for several threads.
> >
> > - Jim
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From hruggier  Wed Jul  9 13:27:16 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 13:27:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net> <3F0C13FD.4B5A8CB2@localnet.com> <3F0C236A.3CCCD5DA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F0C5073.10C688FC@localnet.com>

Of course, he selects that which proves his case - and I for one am checking
a rhyming dictionary before I send my next application to the NEA and I will

beat them with a stick.

Yes, academics got too far away from the mob.  Yes, the rest of them got
lost in the mob.  Now what.

James Cervantes wrote:

> I was going to comment on it but got distracted being on a hiring
> committee and writing revised budgets for two grants I wrote for our lit
> festival.  Sigh.  You know how out of touch we academics can get.
>
> At any rate, it was an interesting perspective though
> Eminem/Minima/Enema got more print time than a pouting, angst-ridden,
> suburban punk should get.  What bugged me was that Gioia gave more
> credence to performance poetry, rap, slams (1st cousin to rap), and
> cowboy poetry as with-it modes of reaching an audience.  He barely gave
> a nod to what is available on the internet.  Maybe that's because it
> still has to be read?
>
> - Jim
>
> Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> >
> > Fascinating essay - thanks for posting it.
> >
> > h
> >
> > James Cervantes wrote:
> >
> > > Disappearing Ink: Poetry at the End of Print Culture, by Dana Gioia
> > >
> > > http://www.poems.com/essagioi.htm
> > >
> > > ============
> > >
> > > Interesting, and fodder for several threads.
> > >
> > > - Jim
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Wed Jul  9 17:35:02 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 14:35:02 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net> <3F0C13FD.4B5A8CB2@localnet.com> <3F0C236A.3CCCD5DA@earthlink.net> <3F0C5073.10C688FC@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <3F0C8A85.9A49ACF0@earthlink.net>


Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> 
> Of course, he selects that which proves his case - and I for one am checking
> a rhyming dictionary before I send my next application to the NEA and I will

Yeah, and don't try to be clever and slip those rhymes in somewhere
mid-line, or back off a full rhyme just to escape classification.

> 
> beat them with a stick.

That's the trick.

> 
> Yes, academics got too far away from the mob.  Yes, the rest of them got
> lost in the mob.  Now what.

We is our own mob.  As a matter of fact, I am my own mob.

- Jim



From MillB  Wed Jul  9 19:10:50 2003
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 19:10:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA Two Cents
Message-ID: <154.213359b9.2c3dfafa@aol.com>

Greetings,

There has of late been much banter about how there are not enough teaching 
jobs for graduating MFAers and that one a zillion is able to make it as a 
working poet.  The deception. The lies. The horror, the horror. . .

I'd just like to add my two cents.  

Creative writing programs are not unique in this situation.  How many of us 
majored in chamber music only to become accountants? or completed graduate 
studies in 18th century British war history, only to land work as furniture 
salesmen?.  

Nowhere does it state in the college catalogue that students, armed with 
squeeky new diplomas, will obtain careers in the exact field in which they 
received their degree!

In fact, as far as jobs go, I would guess that there are more English majors 
who end up doing something at least remotely related to reading and writing 
than there are former geology majors who are employed as geologists.  How many 
political science majors grow up to be Senators?

There are a few exceptions that I can think of: engineering, business.  These 
degrees are more trade-related than others, though, I think.

More later,

Mill
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From jvcervantes  Wed Jul  9 19:43:19 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 16:43:19 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA Two Cents
References: <154.213359b9.2c3dfafa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F0CA896.A9FD910C@earthlink.net>


MillB at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> There has of late been much banter about how there are not enough
> teaching jobs for graduating MFAers and that one a zillion is able to
> make it as a working poet.  The deception. The lies. The horror, the
> horror. . .
> 
> I'd just like to add my two cents.
> 
> Creative writing programs are not unique in this situation.  How many
> of us majored in chamber music only to become accountants? or
> completed graduate studies in 18th century British war history, only
> to land work as furniture salesmen?.
> 
> Nowhere does it state in the college catalogue that students, armed
> with squeeky new diplomas, will obtain careers in the exact field in
> which they received their degree!

The reality is that there's an unspoken assumption that that will be the
case, nevermind how high-flown or esoteric the field of study.  The
majority are going to college so that they can "get a better job" and be
able to afford the stuff that is their birthright, and the media tells
them what that is.  Some of the others go in and see their profs as role
models.  A few go in with a passion for something and deal with the
consequences as they occur.

- Jim



From halvard  Wed Jul  9 22:23:01 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:23:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIENHGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Dear friends,

This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.

They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an 8-month-old
baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with them
to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to change the
laws governing adoption in its country.

This means the following:

     1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring their
         babies home.

    2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken from those
        families and placed in orphanages.

Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following letter
to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda will be
doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI -- some
Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S. mail.)
See letter below.

Thank you very much.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

****************************************************************

July 8, 2003

Dear :

I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of intercountry
adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of adopting
a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a result of changes
in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new Central
Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting requirements
for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.

I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this situation.

I specifically request that:

(1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens to request
that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to July 1, 2003,
be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan Congress,
rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement the Hague
Convention.

(2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application of the Hague
Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to this treaty.

(3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange meetings
between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN representatives, Guatemalan
adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage) directors.  In my
estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among all concerned parties
in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable and consistent with
Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention, and that truly
promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be reached at:

Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
United States Embassy - Guatemala
Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
Guatemala City, Guatemala
Phone:  011+502-331-1541
Fax:      011+502-331-0564

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Sincerely,










From jvcervantes  Wed Jul  9 23:00:21 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 20:00:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIENHGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F0CD6C5.F0F1ACDE@earthlink.net>

On the way manana, Hal.  BTW, a fed-ex letter (or similar) is best as
all UPS mail still suffers security delays.  You know, the anthrax thing
our intelligence people are still scratching their heads over.  Wish we
had a vote of confidence thingy in this country.

- Jim

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> Dear friends,
> 
> This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.
> 
> They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an 8-month-old
> baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with them
> to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
> has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to change the
> laws governing adoption in its country.
> 
> This means the following:
> 
>      1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring their
>          babies home.
> 
>     2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken from those
>         families and placed in orphanages.
> 
> Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following letter
> to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda will be
> doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI -- some
> Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S. mail.)
> See letter below.
> 
> Thank you very much.
> 
> Hal
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> ****************************************************************
> 
> July 8, 2003
> 
> Dear :
> 
> I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of intercountry
> adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of adopting
> a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a result of changes
> in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new Central
> Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting requirements
> for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.
> 
> I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this situation.
> 
> I specifically request that:
> 
> (1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens to request
> that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to July 1, 2003,
> be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan Congress,
> rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement the Hague
> Convention.
> 
> (2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application of the Hague
> Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to this treaty.
> 
> (3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange meetings
> between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN representatives, Guatemalan
> adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage) directors.  In my
> estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among all concerned parties
> in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable and consistent with
> Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention, and that truly
> promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be reached at:
> 
> Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
> United States Embassy - Guatemala
> Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
> Guatemala City, Guatemala
> Phone:  011+502-331-1541
> Fax:      011+502-331-0564
> 
> Thank you for your attention to this matter.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Wed Jul  9 23:07:49 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 23:07:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
In-Reply-To: <3F0CD6C5.F0F1ACDE@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECENKGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Email would be fine, Jim.

Hal

{    On the way manana, Hal.  BTW, a fed-ex letter (or similar) is best as
{    all UPS mail still suffers security delays.  You know, the anthrax thing
{    our intelligence people are still scratching their heads over.  Wish we
{    had a vote of confidence thingy in this country.
{
{    - Jim
{
{    Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    >
{    > Dear friends,
{    >
{    > This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.
{    >
{    > They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an 8-month-old
{    > baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with them
{    > to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
{    > has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to change the
{    > laws governing adoption in its country.
{    >
{    > This means the following:
{    >
{    >      1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring their
{    >          babies home.
{    >
{    >     2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken from those
{    >         families and placed in orphanages.
{    >
{    > Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following letter
{    > to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda will be
{    > doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI -- some
{    > Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S. mail.)
{    > See letter below.
{    >
{    > Thank you very much.
{    >
{    > Hal
{    >
{    > Halvard Johnson
{    > ===============
{    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    >
{    > ****************************************************************
{    >
{    > July 8, 2003
{    >
{    > Dear :
{    >
{    > I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of intercountry
{    > adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of adopting
{    > a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a result of changes
{    > in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new Central
{    > Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting requirements
{    > for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.
{    >
{    > I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this situation.
{    >
{    > I specifically request that:
{    >
{    > (1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens to request
{    > that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to July 1, 2003,
{    > be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan Congress,
{    > rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement the Hague
{    > Convention.
{    >
{    > (2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application of the Hague
{    > Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to this treaty.
{    >
{    > (3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange meetings
{    > between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN representatives, Guatemalan
{    > adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage) directors.  In my
{    > estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among all concerned parties
{    > in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable and consistent with
{    > Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention, and that truly
{    > promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be reached at:
{    >
{    > Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
{    > United States Embassy - Guatemala
{    > Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
{    > Guatemala City, Guatemala
{    > Phone:  011+502-331-1541
{    > Fax:      011+502-331-0564
{    >
{    > Thank you for your attention to this matter.
{    >
{    > Sincerely,
{    >
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{





From luap  Wed Jul  9 23:11:02 2003
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:11:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
In-Reply-To: <3F0CD6C5.F0F1ACDE@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307092210311.29454-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

Another thought. Since we're 'word people' for the most part, wouldn't it
be better to personalize the messages some?

Just a thought.

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/



On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, James Cervantes wrote:

> On the way manana, Hal.  BTW, a fed-ex letter (or similar) is best as
> all UPS mail still suffers security delays.  You know, the anthrax thing
> our intelligence people are still scratching their heads over.  Wish we
> had a vote of confidence thingy in this country.
> 
> - Jim
> 
> Halvard Johnson wrote:
> > 
> > Dear friends,
> > 
> > This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.
> > 
> > They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an 8-month-old
> > baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with them
> > to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
> > has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to change the
> > laws governing adoption in its country.
> > 
> > This means the following:
> > 
> >      1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring their
> >          babies home.
> > 
> >     2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken from those
> >         families and placed in orphanages.
> > 
> > Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following letter
> > to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda will be
> > doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI -- some
> > Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S. mail.)
> > See letter below.
> > 
> > Thank you very much.
> > 
> > Hal
> > 
> > Halvard Johnson
> > ===============
> > email: halvard at earthlink.net
> > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> > 
> > ****************************************************************
> > 
> > July 8, 2003
> > 
> > Dear :
> > 
> > I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of intercountry
> > adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of adopting
> > a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a result of changes
> > in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new Central
> > Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting requirements
> > for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.
> > 
> > I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this situation.
> > 
> > I specifically request that:
> > 
> > (1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens to request
> > that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to July 1, 2003,
> > be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan Congress,
> > rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement the Hague
> > Convention.
> > 
> > (2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application of the Hague
> > Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to this treaty.
> > 
> > (3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange meetings
> > between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN representatives, Guatemalan
> > adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage) directors.  In my
> > estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among all concerned parties
> > in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable and consistent with
> > Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention, and that truly
> > promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be reached at:
> > 
> > Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
> > United States Embassy - Guatemala
> > Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
> > Guatemala City, Guatemala
> > Phone:  011+502-331-1541
> > Fax:      011+502-331-0564
> > 
> > Thank you for your attention to this matter.
> > 
> > Sincerely,
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 





From gmguddi  Wed Jul  9 23:42:49 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 22:42:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIENHGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030709224021.01295660@mail.ilstu.edu>

Hal, others: here's a way to begin to find the contact info for your 
representatives and senators. I've exhausted my limit for the Buffalo list 
today, so if you want, Hal, you can forward this to them. Bookmark them. 
Use them. I do.

http://www.house.gov/writerep/

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

gabe

At 10:23 PM 7/9/2003 -0400, Halvard Johnson wrote:


>Dear friends,
>
>This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.
>
>They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an 
>8-month-old
>baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home 
>with them
>to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
>has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to 
>change the
>laws governing adoption in its country.
>
>This means the following:
>
>      1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to 
> bring their
>          babies home.
>
>     2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be 
> taken from those
>         families and placed in orphanages.
>
>Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the 
>following letter
>to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and 
>Lynda will be
>doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI 
>-- some
>Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S. 
>mail.)
>See letter below.
>
>Thank you very much.
>
>Hal
>
>Halvard Johnson
>===============
>email: halvard at earthlink.net
>website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
>****************************************************************
>
>July 8, 2003
>
>Dear :
>
>I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing 
>of intercountry
>adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of 
>adopting
>a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a 
>result of changes
>in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the 
>new Central
>Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting 
>requirements
>for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.
>
>I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this 
>situation.
>
>I specifically request that:
>
>(1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. 
>citizens to request
>that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to 
>July 1, 2003,
>be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan 
>Congress,
>rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement 
>the Hague
>Convention.
>
>(2) You request that the DOS assert "third party status" in the 
>application of the Hague
>Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded 
>to this treaty.
>
>(3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General's office in Guatemala to arrange 
>meetings
>between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN 
>representatives, Guatemalan
>adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage) 
>directors.  In my
>estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among 
>all concerned parties
>in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable 
>and consistent with
>Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague 
>Convention, and that truly
>promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can 
>be reached at:
>
>Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
>United States Embassy - Guatemala
>Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
>Guatemala City, Guatemala
>Phone:  011+502-331-1541
>Fax:      011+502-331-0564
>
>Thank you for your attention to this matter.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Thu Jul 10 08:40:32 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:40:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307092210311.29454-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECENPGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Natch! Feel free to do so. I did.

Hal

{    Another thought. Since we're 'word people' for the most part, wouldn't it
{    be better to personalize the messages some?
{
{    Just a thought.
{
{    -kpaul
{    mallasch.com/mug/
{
{
{
{    On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, James Cervantes wrote:
{
{    > On the way manana, Hal.  BTW, a fed-ex letter (or similar) is best as
{    > all UPS mail still suffers security delays.  You know, the anthrax thing
{    > our intelligence people are still scratching their heads over.  Wish we
{    > had a vote of confidence thingy in this country.
{    >
{    > - Jim
{    >
{    > Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    > >
{    > > Dear friends,
{    > >
{    > > This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.
{    > >
{    > > They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an 8-month-old
{    > > baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with them
{    > > to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
{    > > has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to change the
{    > > laws governing adoption in its country.
{    > >
{    > > This means the following:
{    > >
{    > >      1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring their
{    > >          babies home.
{    > >
{    > >     2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken from those
{    > >         families and placed in orphanages.
{    > >
{    > > Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following letter
{    > > to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda will be
{    > > doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI -- some
{    > > Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S. mail.)
{    > > See letter below.
{    > >
{    > > Thank you very much.
{    > >
{    > > Hal
{    > >
{    > > Halvard Johnson
{    > > ===============
{    > > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    > >
{    > > ****************************************************************
{    > >
{    > > July 8, 2003
{    > >
{    > > Dear :
{    > >
{    > > I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of intercountry
{    > > adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of adopting
{    > > a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a result of changes
{    > > in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new Central
{    > > Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting requirements
{    > > for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.
{    > >
{    > > I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this situation.
{    > >
{    > > I specifically request that:
{    > >
{    > > (1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens to request
{    > > that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to July 1, 2003,
{    > > be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan Congress,
{    > > rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement the Hague
{    > > Convention.
{    > >
{    > > (2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application of the Hague
{    > > Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to this treaty.
{    > >
{    > > (3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange meetings
{    > > between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN representatives, Guatemalan
{    > > adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage) directors.  In my
{    > > estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among all concerned parties
{    > > in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable and consistent with
{    > > Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention, and that truly
{    > > promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be reached at:
{    > >
{    > > Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
{    > > United States Embassy - Guatemala
{    > > Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
{    > > Guatemala City, Guatemala
{    > > Phone:  011+502-331-1541
{    > > Fax:      011+502-331-0564
{    > >
{    > > Thank you for your attention to this matter.
{    > >
{    > > Sincerely,
{    > >
{    > > _______________________________________________
{    > > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    >
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    >
{
{
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{





From hruggier  Thu Jul 10 09:31:20 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:31:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F020B5D.88051CCB@earthlink.net> <3F0C13FD.4B5A8CB2@localnet.com> <3F0C236A.3CCCD5DA@earthlink.net> <3F0C5073.10C688FC@localnet.com> <3F0C8A85.9A49ACF0@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F0D6AA7.E917D258@localnet.com>

mob is moi

James Cervantes wrote:

> Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> >
> > Of course, he selects that which proves his case - and I for one am checking
> > a rhyming dictionary before I send my next application to the NEA and I will
>
> Yeah, and don't try to be clever and slip those rhymes in somewhere
> mid-line, or back off a full rhyme just to escape classification.
>
> >
> > beat them with a stick.
>
> That's the trick.
>
> >
> > Yes, academics got too far away from the mob.  Yes, the rest of them got
> > lost in the mob.  Now what.
>
> We is our own mob.  As a matter of fact, I am my own mob.
>
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From marcus  Thu Jul 10 09:43:22 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:43:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
In-Reply-To: <3F0D6AA7.E917D258@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <3F0D353A.1236.5733A1@localhost>

> > We is our own mob.  As a matter of fact, I am my own mob.
> > - Jim

On 10 Jul 2003 at 9:31, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> mob is moi
 
A mob of one?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 10 09:54:55 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 06:54:55 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <3F0D353A.1236.5733A1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F0D702E.3F327D82@earthlink.net>

I think we're speaking figuratively and metaphorically.

- Jim, mob spokesperson

Marcus Bales wrote:
> 
> > > We is our own mob.  As a matter of fact, I am my own mob.
> > > - Jim
> 
> On 10 Jul 2003 at 9:31, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> > mob is moi
> 
> A mob of one?
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jnewberry1974  Thu Jul 10 10:03:20 2003
From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:03:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
In-Reply-To: <3F0D353A.1236.5733A1@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030710140320.48384.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com>

A Mob of One
 
Finally, a title for my punk band.
 
Jeff Newberry

Marcus Bales <marcus at designerglass.com> wrote:
> > We is our own mob. As a matter of fact, I am my own mob.
> > - Jim

On 10 Jul 2003 at 9:31, Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> mob is moi

A mob of one?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


---------------------------------
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From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 10 10:06:02 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 07:06:02 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <20030710140320.48384.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3F0D72C9.CA902ED4@earthlink.net>

Jeff Newberry wrote:


> A Mob of One
> 
> Finally, a title for my punk band.

That would be unaccompanied, right?

- Jim



From tadrichards  Thu Jul 10 10:37:13 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:37:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIENHGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <003e01c346f0$c0c0ebf0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Hal -- will do, and will post on other lists.

Tad


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 10:23 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda




Dear friends,

This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.

They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an
8-month-old
baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with
them
to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to
change the
laws governing adoption in its country.

This means the following:

     1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring
their
         babies home.

    2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken
from those
        families and placed in orphanages.

Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following
letter
to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda
will be
doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI -- 
some
Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S.
mail.)
See letter below.

Thank you very much.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

****************************************************************

July 8, 2003

Dear :

I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of
intercountry
adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of
adopting
a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a
result of changes
in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new
Central
Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting
requirements
for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.

I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this
situation.

I specifically request that:

(1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens
to request
that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to
July 1, 2003,
be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan
Congress,
rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement
the Hague
Convention.

(2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application
of the Hague
Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to
this treaty.

(3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange
meetings
between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN
representatives, Guatemalan
adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage)
directors.  In my
estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among
all concerned parties
in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable
and consistent with
Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention,
and that truly
promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be
reached at:

Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
United States Embassy - Guatemala
Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
Guatemala City, Guatemala
Phone:  011+502-331-1541
Fax:      011+502-331-0564

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Sincerely,







_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From hruggier  Thu Jul 10 10:46:14 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:46:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
References: <20030710140320.48384.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> <3F0D72C9.CA902ED4@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F0D7C35.2F2355EC@localnet.com>

I didn't pay attention during the verb section -  pronouns yes.
would  "mob are moi" be ok if I immediately took arsenic.
Miss Piggy


James Cervantes wrote:

> Jeff Newberry wrote:
>
> > A Mob of One
> >
> > Finally, a title for my punk band.
>
> That would be unaccompanied, right?
>
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Thu Jul 10 11:01:43 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 11:01:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
In-Reply-To: <003e01c346f0$c0c0ebf0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEODGOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Thanks, Tad.

Hal

{    Hal -- will do, and will post on other lists.
{
{    Tad
{
{
{    ----- Original Message -----
{    From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
{    To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
{    Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 10:23 PM
{    Subject: [New-Poetry] A request from Hal and Lynda
{
{
{
{
{    Dear friends,
{
{    This is by way of requesting your support and help for some friends of ours.
{
{    They have just learned disturbing news concerning their adoption of an
{    8-month-old
{    baby girl they're in the process of adopting. She was due to come home with
{    them
{    to the US with them sometime this summer. However, the Guatemalan government
{    has placed an unofficial "freeze" on all adoptions, while it attempts to
{    change the
{    laws governing adoption in its country.
{
{    This means the following:
{
{         1) no adoptive U.S. parents will be allowed to go to Guatemala to bring
{    their
{             babies home.
{
{        2) the babies, now living with nurturing foster families, may be taken
{    from those
{            families and placed in orphanages.
{
{    Their lawyer has asked them to ask everyone they know to send the following
{    letter
{    to their U.S. Senators and Representative. I did so this morning, and Lynda
{    will be
{    doing so later on. You'll need to insert your name in the signature. (FYI --
{    some
{    Senators and Representatives have websites; if not, please send via U.S.
{    mail.)
{    See letter below.
{
{    Thank you very much.
{
{    Hal
{
{    Halvard Johnson
{    ===============
{    email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{
{    ****************************************************************
{
{    July 8, 2003
{
{    Dear :
{
{    I am contacting you concerning the current instability in the processing of
{    intercountry
{    adoptions from Guatemala.  I have friends who have been in the process of
{    adopting
{    a little girl from Guatemala for over a year. We understand that, as a
{    result of changes
{    in Guatemala, adoptions have been suspended, albeit unofficially, by the new
{    Central
{    Authority in Guatemala (the PGN)  purportedly until new guidelines meeting
{    requirements
{    for the Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption can be established.
{
{    I am soliciting your assistance in urging a timely resolution to this
{    situation.
{
{    I specifically request that:
{
{    (1) You request that the Department Of State act on behalf of U.S. citizens
{    to request
{    that all adoption cases in which the Power of Attorney was signed prior to
{    July 1, 2003,
{    be processed under existing Guatemalan law as enacted by the Guatemalan
{    Congress,
{    rather than under the new PGN requirements which are intended to implement
{    the Hague
{    Convention.
{
{    (2) You request that the DOS assert ?third party status? in the application
{    of the Hague
{    Convention on Intercountry Adoption by Guatemala until the US has acceded to
{    this treaty.
{
{    (3) You lobby the DOS and Consul General?s office in Guatemala to arrange
{    meetings
{    between U.S. Embassy officials, delegates from the Hague, PGN
{    representatives, Guatemalan
{    adoption attorneys, adoption professionals, and private hogar (orphanage)
{    directors.  In my
{    estimation, these meetings should serve to facilitate communication among
{    all concerned parties
{    in order to develop and apply regulations and policies that are reasonable
{    and consistent with
{    Guatemalan law and culture, that honor the purpose of the Hague Convention,
{    and that truly
{    promote the best interest of Guatemalan children.  The Consul General can be
{    reached at:
{
{    Mr. Michael J. Jacobsen, Consul General
{    United States Embassy - Guatemala
{    Avenida Reforma 7-01, Zona 10
{    Guatemala City, Guatemala
{    Phone:  011+502-331-1541
{    Fax:      011+502-331-0564
{
{    Thank you for your attention to this matter.
{
{    Sincerely,
{
{
{
{
{
{
{
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{





From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 10 12:31:13 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 09:31:13 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] bloglet, 7/10/03
Message-ID: <3F0D94D1.5DC17105@earthlink.net>

7/10/03

It's been almost three months since I last sat down to enter a bloglet. 
It's been a little less than three months since I last watched TV. 
thunkitthrough.org is bust, but I'm recruiting members for
kucinichmaybe.org on the internet and recruiting members for
deanmaybe.org at the malls.  I've also renewed my passport.

Anyway, when I'm feeling strong, I take in a little TV and I see nothing
has changed much.  Bush is still convinced by everything he's said
and Rumsfeld is still one-upping Kafka and Orwell.  The last thing I
heard from him was something like "It's o.k. for the facts to change." 
That was at a press conference on CNN or C-Span and not one reporter
asked for clarification.  I imagined a reporter pressing him on it and
Rummy replying, "Because then we have new facts and that's o.k. because
it's natural for the facts to change."  I wonder how many alcoholics
there are now in the press corps.

The big topic at Starbucks now is the reality of politics on the
internet - we meet there every Saturday morning and talk about our
e-mails and the latest petitions.  Bulinda, my new friend, is critical
and says it's an echo chamber.  Arial sees nothing wrong with the fact
that we're all on the same lists, especially since we can use our real
names and not aliases.  Bulinda says that's b.s. and that aliases would
at least make it seem like there's more of us, especially if we keep the
aliases a secret from each other.  When things get like that, I get on
my bike and ride away.

comments to UrmeIamU at aol.con

p.s. - Thanks, Jim, for letting me use your account.



From Rsgwynn1  Thu Jul 10 15:42:35 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 15:42:35 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
Message-ID: <ae.43cd35b1.2c3f1bab@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/10/2003 9:45:53 AM Central Daylight Time, 
hruggier at localnet.com writes: 
> 
> I didn't pay attention during the verb section -  pronouns yes.
> would  "mob are moi" be ok if I immediately took arsenic.
> Miss Piggy

I suppose we're talking about "demoicracy," right?
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From jnewberry1974  Thu Jul 10 17:04:59 2003
From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:04:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Disappearing Ink . . . "
In-Reply-To: <ae.43cd35b1.2c3f1bab@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20030710210459.79754.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com>

Demoicracy . . . 
 
Wasn't that the title of a Emily Whitman collection?  Or was that Walt Dickinson?
 
Jeff Newberry

Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
In a message dated 7/10/2003 9:45:53 AM Central Daylight Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes: 

I didn't pay attention during the verb section -  pronouns yes.
would  "mob are moi" be ok if I immediately took arsenic.
Miss Piggy

I suppose we're talking about "demoicracy," right? 



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
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From ron.silliman  Sat Jul 12 07:42:51 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 07:42:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Reminder: Burger & Silliman in Oakland, July 13
Message-ID: <000101c3486a$bde1a200$d7f5f343@Dell>

This coming Sunday

Reading in Oakland, CA
Sunday, July 13
7-9 PM

Mary Burger
Ron Silliman

at the gallery
21 Grand
449B 23rd Street
(between Broadway & Telegraph)
$4 Cover





From MillB  Sat Jul 12 09:13:13 2003
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:13:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Uncle Jacques' Symphony
Message-ID: <1cc.d9310e1.2c416369@aol.com>

Greetings:

For those of you in the Los Angeles area, there is an amazingly poetic one 
man show at Stages Theatre (next door to Cafe des Artistes).? It is an Amazing 
work. . .If you can, it I strongly urge you to do so!

It's only through July 26th!

Here's a blurb:? "Uncle Jacques' Symphony is a musical without the music. A 
jazz drummer forced to surrender his drums and take a "straight gig" to support 
his
family, he finds another type of music in the harmonies and rhythms of the
people he comes in contact with on his new job. Instead of a set of drums,
the instruments are human beings, and the music produced in life is as
compelling and musical as any jazz set he ever played."

Here's the web page:
<A HREF="http://www.stagestheatrecenter.com/">http://www.stagestheatrecenter.com/</A>

Cheers,


Mill



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From jvcervantes  Sat Jul 12 11:44:08 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:44:08 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
Message-ID: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net>

In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:

I'm Not Evil

You're Not Evil


No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.

I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.

- Jim



From tadrichards  Sat Jul 12 12:15:34 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 12:15:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
References: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005b01c34890$d523a780$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Jim -- I really like this one. As administrator of an online news discussion
bulletinboard which attracts both righties and lefties, I hear far too much
extreme rhetoric.

Tad


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: "new-poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:44 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement


> In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
>
> I'm Not Evil
>
> You're Not Evil
>
>
> No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
>
> I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
>
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Sat Jul 12 12:23:35 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:23:35 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
References: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net> <005b01c34890$d523a780$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <3F103607.533D721@earthlink.net>

Yeah, it works because it undercuts the big lie on which the others have
been predicated.

- Jim

TheOldMole wrote:
> 
> Jim -- I really like this one. As administrator of an online news discussion
> bulletinboard which attracts both righties and lefties, I hear far too much
> extreme rhetoric.
> 
> Tad
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> To: "new-poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:44 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
> 
> > In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> > or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> >
> > I'm Not Evil
> >
> > You're Not Evil
> >
> >
> > No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> > have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
> >
> > I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
> >
> > - Jim
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From gmguddi  Sat Jul 12 12:21:30 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 11:21:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] evil
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030712111900.012a9750@mail.ilstu.edu>

[Sent this to BuffPo earlier but seeing Jim's t-shirt topic, I provide it 
here. This article from The Boston Globe reminds me distantly of an 
aphorism from Solzhenitsyn I have favored recently, ""If only there were 
evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were 
necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But 
the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human 
being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"]

"Bush's war against evil
By James Carroll, 7/8/2003

IN THE GOTHIC splendor of the National Cathedral, that liturgy of trauma, 
George W. Bush made the most stirring - and ominous - declaration of his 
presidency. It was Sept. 14, 2001. ''Just three days removed from these 
events,'' he said, ''Americans do not yet have ''the distance of history.'' 
But our responsibility to history is already clear: to answer these attacks 
and rid the world of evil.''

The statement fell on the ears of most Americans, perhaps, as mere rhetoric 
of the high pulpit, but as the distance of history lengthens, events show 
that in those few words the president redefined his raison d'etre and that 
of the nation - nothing less than to ''rid the world of evil.'' The 
unprecedented initiatives taken from Washington in the last two years are 
incomprehensible except in the context of this purpose.
President Bush, one sees now, meant exactly what he said. Something 
entirely new, for Americans, at least, is animating their government. The 
greatest power the earth has ever seen is now expressly mobilized against 
the world's most ancient mystery. What human beings have proven incapable 
of doing ever before, George W. Bush has taken on as his personal mission, 
aiming to accomplish it in one election cycle, two at most.

What the president may not know is that the worst manifestations of evil 
have been the blowback of efforts to be rid of it. If one can refer to the 
personification of evil, Satan's great trick consists in turning the fierce 
energy of such purification back upon itself. Across the distance of 
history, the most noble ambition has invariably led to the most ignoble 
deeds. This is because the certitude of nobility overrides the moral qualm 
that adheres to less transcendent enterprises. The record of this deadly 
paradox is written in the full range of literature, from Sophocles to 
Fyodor Dostoyevski to Ursula K. LeGuin, each of whom raises the perennial 
question: What is permitted to be done in the name of ''ridding the world 
of evil''?

Is lying allowed? Torture? The killing of children? Or, less drastic, the 
militarization of civil society? The launching of dubious wars? But wars 
are never dubious at their launchings. The recognition of complexity - 
moral as well as martial - comes only with ''the distance of history,'' and 
it is that perspective that has begun to press itself upon the American 
conscience now.

Having forthrightly set out to rid the world of evil, first in Afghanistan, 
then in Iraq, has the United States, willy-nilly, become an instrument of 
evil? Lying (weapons of mass deception). Torture (if only by US 
surrogates). The killing of children (''collaterally,'' but inevitably). 
The vulgarization of patriotism (last week's orgy of bunting). The 
imposition of chaos (and calling it freedom). The destruction of alliances 
(''First Iraq, then France''). The invitation to other nations to behave in 
like fashion (Goodbye, Chechnya). The inexorable escalation (''Bring 'em 
on!''). The made-in-Washington pantheon of mythologized enemies (first 
Osama, now Saddam). The transmutation of ordinary young Americans (into 
dead heroes). How does all of this, or any of it, ''rid the world of evil''?

Which brings us back to that Gothic cathedral of a question: What is evil 
anyway? Is it the impulse only of tyrants? Of enemies alone? Or is it tied 
to the personal entitlement onto which America, too, hangs its bunting? Is 
evil the thing, perhaps, that forever inclines human beings to believe that 
they are themselves untouched by it? Moral maturity, mellowed across the 
distance of history, begins in the acknowledgement that evil, whatever its 
primal source, resides, like a virus in its niche, in the human self. There 
is no ridding the world of evil for the simple fact that, shy of history's 
end, there is no ridding the self of it.

But there's the problem with President Bush. It is not the moral immaturity 
of the texts he reads. Like his callow statement in the National Cathedral, 
they are written by someone else. When the president speaks, unscripted, 
from his own moral center, what shows itself is a bottomless void.

To address concerns about the savage violence engulfing ''postwar'' Iraq 
with a cocksure ''Bring `em on!'' as he did last week, is to display an 
absence of imagination shocking in a man of such authority. It showed a 
lack of capacity to identify either with enraged Iraqis who must rise to 
such a taunt or with young GIs who must now answer for it. Even in 
relationship to his own soldiers, there is nothing at the core of this man 
but visceral meanness.

No human being with a minimal self-knowledge could speak of evil as he 
does, but there is no self-knowledge without a self. Even this short 
''distance of history'' shows George W. Bush to be, in that sense, the 
selfless president, which is not a compliment. It's a warning.

James Carroll's column appears regularly in the Globe.
This story ran on page A19 of the Boston Globe on 7/8/2003.
? Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company.






From Rsgwynn1  Sat Jul 12 12:27:59 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 12:27:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
Message-ID: <12d.2d68eccf.2c41910f@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/12/2003 10:45:13 AM Central Standard Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: 
> In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> 
> I'm Not Evil
> 
> You're Not Evil
R. W. Emerson for President!
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From gmguddi  Sat Jul 12 12:34:36 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 11:34:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
In-Reply-To: <3F103607.533D721@earthlink.net>
References: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net>
 <005b01c34890$d523a780$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030712112651.012a10a0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Jim, I made up those flyers containing reminders for the fourth of july and 
distributed them to family members, strangers, and left them in every 
reststop restroom, restaurant, and pitstop between Bloomington Illinois and 
Moorhead Minnesota when Clio, my daughter, and I went "home" to the 
Fargo-Moorhead region for the fourth and a week with my family. Some great 
discussions resulted, but most satisfactory of all was the sense of relief 
I saw on people's faces when they read some of the reminders about what 
democracy is really about.

At 09:23 AM 7/12/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
>Yeah, it works because it undercuts the big lie on which the others have
>been predicated.
>
>- Jim
>
>TheOldMole wrote:
> >
> > Jim -- I really like this one. As administrator of an online news 
> discussion
> > bulletinboard which attracts both righties and lefties, I hear far too much
> > extreme rhetoric.
> >
> > Tad
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> > To: "new-poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:44 AM
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
> >
> > > In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> > > or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> > >
> > > I'm Not Evil
> > >
> > > You're Not Evil
> > >
> > >
> > > No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> > > have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
> > >
> > > I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
> > >
> > > - Jim
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Sat Jul 12 14:39:52 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 11:39:52 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
References: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net>
	 <005b01c34890$d523a780$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <5.1.1.6.0.20030712112651.012a10a0@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F1055F8.1ECA0F72@earthlink.net>

Terriric!  Some folks have been telling me the "I'm Not Evil/You're Not
Evil" slogan is too subtle, but the gal who runs the t-shirt shop at the
mall got it right away, as did a customer who was there when I picked up
my t-shirts.

In the meantime, I have gotten an offer from an internet t-shirt
entrepeneur to sell the shirts with all proceeds going to the Kucinich campaign!

- Jim

Gabriel Gudding wrote:
> 
> Jim, I made up those flyers containing reminders for the fourth of july and
> distributed them to family members, strangers, and left them in every
> reststop restroom, restaurant, and pitstop between Bloomington Illinois and
> Moorhead Minnesota when Clio, my daughter, and I went "home" to the
> Fargo-Moorhead region for the fourth and a week with my family. Some great
> discussions resulted, but most satisfactory of all was the sense of relief
> I saw on people's faces when they read some of the reminders about what
> democracy is really about.
> 
> At 09:23 AM 7/12/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
> >Yeah, it works because it undercuts the big lie on which the others have
> >been predicated.
> >
> >- Jim
> >
> >TheOldMole wrote:
> > >
> > > Jim -- I really like this one. As administrator of an online news
> > discussion
> > > bulletinboard which attracts both righties and lefties, I hear far too much
> > > extreme rhetoric.
> > >
> > > Tad
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> > > To: "new-poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:44 AM
> > > Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
> > >
> > > > In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> > > > or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> > > >
> > > > I'm Not Evil
> > > >
> > > > You're Not Evil
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> > > > have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
> > > >
> > > > I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
> > > >
> > > > - Jim
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From elemenope  Sat Jul 12 05:14:48 2003
From: elemenope (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 17:14:48 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cervantes' grass roots statement
In-Reply-To: <200307121601.h6CG17ST007874@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200307121601.h6CG17ST007874@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100304bb357f26b088@[204.215.201.198]>

>
>>In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
>>or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
>>
>>I'm Not Evil
>>
>You're Not Evil




This is a productive approach.  Last night at Borders a young woman 
wound through the stacks, veered past in pink t-shirt that read: "Men 
Are Pigs."

No smile there.  It seems a cheap shot to tell it but I saw it in her 
face, in its snout, a kind of piglike adamantness.

At least she made no distinction between Bubba and Dubya.

>
>Message: 3
>Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:44:08 -0700
>From: James Cervantes <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
>To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
>or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
>
>I'm Not Evil
>
>You're Not Evil
>
>
>No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
>have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
>
>I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
>
>- Jim
>

-- 



From gmguddi  Sun Jul 13 00:12:58 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 23:12:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] be ready
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030712231218.04739440@mail.ilstu.edu>

http://www.ready.gov/

Poetry *is* Readiness




From paul.lake  Mon Jul 14 11:43:57 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:43:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
In-Reply-To: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BB3839ED.510D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I know that people on the left have been stunned to hear their criticism of
the Bush administration described as unpatriotic--i.e. "evil." But
conservatives I've read over the last couple of years argue that it is the
left that refuses to engage in reasoned argument, suggesting instead, for
example, that if you oppose policies like racial preferences you're not
merely mistaken, but evil.  I agree with you, Jim, that's it's time for both
sides to engage in reasoned debate instead of demonization.

I hope people understand what the tee shirt's logo means.

Paul Lake







on 7/12/03 10:44 AM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:

> In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> 
> I'm Not Evil
> 
> You're Not Evil
> 
> 
> No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
> 
> I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
> 
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From anny.ballardini  Mon Jul 14 16:39:22 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:39:22 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] (Pterodactyls
Message-ID: <006b01c34a48$024b5ce0$af607550@anny>

(Pterodactyls, flying reptiles

Archaeopterix, airborne reptile with feathers

Hesperornis regalis

birds come from dinosaurs?)

 

was walking 

it triggered in front of my eyes

was thinking and didn?t notice

went back

similar to a dark brown warm detached flying hand

with the queue of my eye in the distance

i saw it was a big red butterfly

 

too slow of me to get another glimpse of it

 

 
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From JforJames  Mon Jul 14 17:21:51 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:21:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Don't Die Without One
Message-ID: <128.2df9ded9.2c4478ef@aol.com>

Britain's Poet Laureate Andrew Motion has backed a project that aims to 
ensure everyone is given a fitting eulogy at their funeral, whatever their 
backgrounds.     
    
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3063221.stm



From jvcervantes  Mon Jul 14 18:22:21 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:22:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
References: <BB3839ED.510D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F132D1C.672ABBA@earthlink.net>


Paul Lake wrote:
> 
> I know that people on the left have been stunned to hear their criticism of
> the Bush administration described as unpatriotic--i.e. "evil." But
> conservatives I've read over the last couple of years argue that it is the
> left that refuses to engage in reasoned argument, suggesting instead, for
> example, that if you oppose policies like racial preferences you're not
> merely mistaken, but evil.  I agree with you, Jim, that's it's time for both
> sides to engage in reasoned debate instead of demonization.
> 
> I hope people understand what the tee shirt's logo means.

The gal who runs the t-shirt shop (in a middle-class mall) got it, as
did another customer at the counter when I went to retrieve the shirts,
as well as a hispanic couple nearby - the husband did a thumbs up.  This
morning I wore it for the first time in public on a shopping trip to my
local supermarket.  Every other customer I encountered zeroed in on it,
some averting their eyes as soon as I noticed they were looking at it,
some expressionless though they were looking at it, and one woman
followed me, got ahead, then turned around so she could read it again,
and she got a little smile.  I don't know what they were thinking, of
course, but I had the feeling it did get them thinking.

- Jim



From Cadaly  Mon Jul 14 19:59:10 2003
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:59:10 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] S A L T   P U B L I S H I N G
Message-ID: <1e0.d4a4d81.2c449dce@aol.com>


>S A L T   P U B L I S H I N G
>New books for July 2003
>
>
>NORTH AMERICA
>
>   CATHERINE DALY
>   "DaDaDa"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1876857951
<A HREF="http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1876857951.htm">http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1876857951.htm</A>

>   AARON MCCOLLOUGH
>   "Double Venus"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1844710033
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844710033.htm
>
>   ETHAN PAQUIN
>   "Accumulus"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1844710157
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1844710157.htm
>
>
>EUROPE
>
>   ANDREW DUNCAN
>   "The Failure of Conservatism in Modern British Poetry"
>   Salt Studies in Contemporary Poetry
>   1876857579
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/sscp/1876857579.htm
>
>   PETER MIDDLETON
>   "Aftermath"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1876857633
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1876857633.htm
>
>   JOHN WILKINSON
>   "Contrivances"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1876857609
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1876857609.htm
>
>
>AUSTRALASIA
>
>   MIKE BRENNAN
>   "The Imageless World"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   184471005X
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/184471005X.htm
>
>   DANIEL KEENE
>   "Terminus and Other Plays"
>   Salt Modern Drama
>   1876857188
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smd/1876857188.htm
>
>   CATH KENNEALY
>   "All Day, All Night"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1876857099
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1876857099.htm
>
>   JOHN KINSELLA (Ed.)
>   "Salt Volume 17 Issue 1"
>   Salt International Journal of Poetry and Poetics
>   1844710068
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/journals/1844710068.htm
>
>   JOHN KINSELLA & TRACY RYAN
>   "Conspiracies"
>   Salt Modern Fiction
>   1844710181
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/smf/1844710181.htm
>
>   MARK PIRIE
>   "Gallery: A Selection"
>   Salt Modern Poets
>   1876857242
>   http://www.saltpublishing.com/books/smp/1876857242.htm
>
>
>If you wish to be removed from future titles announcements, please 
>reply to this email with remove in the subject line.
>
>
>Salt Publishing
>http://www.saltpublishing.com
>
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From paul.lake  Tue Jul 15 09:49:07 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:49:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
In-Reply-To: <3F102CC8.D1CC9533@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BB389018.511B%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>


     ?
(AP)
Republicans appeal "to the dark underside of American culture, to that
minority of Americans who reject democracy and equality," NAACP Chairman
Julian Bond said yesterday at the civil rights group's 94th annual
convention.

The above attitude might require a different tee shirt:

I'm Good

You're Evil






on 7/12/03 10:44 AM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:

> In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> 
> I'm Not Evil
> 
> You're Not Evil
> 
> 
> No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
> 
> I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
> 
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From paul.lake  Tue Jul 15 09:54:35 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:54:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A new grass roots movement
Message-ID: <BB3971CB.5122%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

     ?
(AP)
Republicans appeal "to the dark underside of American culture, to that
minority of Americans who reject democracy and equality," NAACP Chairman
Julian Bond said yesterday at the civil rights group's 94th annual
convention.

The above attitude might require a different tee shirt:

I'm Good

You're Evil

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 15 13:10:38 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:10:38 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] a grass roots statement
References: <BB389018.511B%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F14358E.E671F75F@earthlink.net>

But that plays right into their hands and supports their black and white
rhetoric, as well as other false dichotomies.

- Jim, possibly naive

Paul Lake wrote:
> 
>      ?
> (AP)
> Republicans appeal "to the dark underside of American culture, to that
> minority of Americans who reject democracy and equality," NAACP Chairman
> Julian Bond said yesterday at the civil rights group's 94th annual
> convention.
> 
> The above attitude might require a different tee shirt:
> 
> I'm Good
> 
> You're Evil
> 
> on 7/12/03 10:44 AM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:
> 
> > In just a while, I'm heading to the mall to a t-shirt shop to have one
> > or two t-shirts printed up that say, quite simply:
> >
> > I'm Not Evil
> >
> > You're Not Evil
> >
> >
> > No matter who your candidate is, this message has to be out there.  We
> > have to cut the legs out from under the fear-mongering.
> >
> > I urge you to go have a similar t-shirt printed up.
> >
> > - Jim
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > ---
> > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> >
> >
> 
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From paul.lake  Mon Jul 14 13:27:16 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 12:27:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A grass roots statement
Message-ID: <BB385223.510D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>



     ?
(AP)
Republicans appeal "to the dark underside of American culture, to that
minority of Americans who reject democracy and equality," NAACP Chairman
Julian Bond said yesterday at the civil rights group's 94th annual
convention.


And example of what I recently posted about the left's tendency to demonize.
Translated to a tee shirt, this would read

You're evil

I'm good

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From JforJames  Tue Jul 15 23:11:45 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:11:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mamaphonic
Message-ID: <11e.23cd3c83.2c461c71@aol.com>

>     Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:36:09 -0400
>     From: Cheryl Dobinson <cjdobins at yorku.ca>
>Reply-To: cjdobins at yorku.ca
>  Subject: Call for Submissions: Mamaphonic
>       To: unlisted-recipients@
>
>Call for Submissions: Mamaphonic
>
>Do you have a toddler seat strapped in the back of the tour van? Do you
>write poetry while the baby naps? Have you discovered that becoming a
>mother has changed not only your daily life but the content of your
>creative work? Mamaphonic is an anthology of writing about mothering,
>the creative process, and reciprocity within the artistic community. The
>book will include confessions and conversations about the true,
>exhilirating, entertaining, and difficult aspects of remaining creative
>while raising kids.  We are seeking literary first-person nonfiction
>essays of 2,000 - 4,000 words. Queries are encouraged. We are interested
>in hearing from mothers participating in all aspects of art, writing,
>music, puppetry, performance, film, photography, independent publishing,
>or any other creative endeavor.  We are seeking diverse views on
>subjects such as: children as muses, how an artist's daily life is
>changed after becoming a mother, how women balance their work and
>creative process with motherhood, and the specific influence of
>parenting on career trajectory and expectations. Although we are
>primarily concerned with the positive influences motherhood can have on
>the artistic process, we are also interested in the challenges
>motherhood brings to the working artist and how those challenges are met
>and overcome.
>
>Edited by Bee Lavender and Maia Rossini and published by Soft
><http://www.softskull.com>  Skull Press, the book will also include a
>compendium of practical resources for working artistic mothers.
>Compensation includes $50 and two review copies. The deadline for
>submissions is September 1, 2003.
>
>Please forward this message extensively.
>
>Hard copies can be mailed to:
>Mamaphonic c/o Hip Mama PO Box 28870 Seattle, WA 98118
>Email queries and submissions:
>submissions at mamaphonic.com
>Mamaphonic.com <http://www.mamaphonic.com>



From JforJames  Wed Jul 16 14:09:19 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:09:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Josephine Jacobsen obit
Message-ID: <142.158ad17c.2c46eecf@aol.com>

Josephine Jacobsen, 94, nation's former top poet 

07/13/03


From JforJames  Wed Jul 16 14:22:45 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:22:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins moves Forward in UK
Message-ID: <155.2151d82a.2c46f1f5@aol.com>

BBC News
US laureate leads Forward list 
US Poet Laureate Billy Collins leads the nominees for the UK's richest annual 
poetry award, the Forward Prize. 
Collins joins Ciaran Carson, Ian Duhig, Lavinia Greenlaw and Paul Muldoon on 
the shortlist for the ?10,000 prize for the best published poetry collection. 

The winner will be announced on 8 October - the eve of National Poetry Day. 

Times Literary Supplement editor Peter Stodhard chairs this year's judging 
panel, which includes poet Connie Bensley, TV presenter Daisy Goodwin, former 
Forward nominee Vona Groarke, and singer Beth Orton. 

As well as the prize for best collection, there are other awards for a best 
first collection and best single poem. 

Forward Arts Foundation chairman William Siegart said: "With so many 
excellent collections published this year, I did not envy this year's judging panel in 
arriving at these shortlists. 

'Exciting' 

"It's encouraging to see such varied poets, and exciting to see who the 
emerging talents are in the best first collection and single poem categories." 

Collins, who comes to the end of a two-year-term as US laureate this year, is 
shortlisted for Nine Horses, the follow-up to his hugely successful Taking 
Off Emily Dickinson's Clothes. 

Belfast-born Peter Carson is nominated for his collection Breaking News. 

Lavinia Greenlaw is nominated for her third collection, Minsk, while 
Leeds-based writer Ian Duhig is up for The Lammas Hireling - the title poem of which 
won the best single poem prize last year. 

Oxford professor of poetry Paul Muldoon is a contender for the award thanks 
to his latest collection, Moy, Sand and Gravel. 

Rhian Gallagher, AB Jackson, John McAuliffe, Jane Routh and Sarah Wardle are 
up for the ?5,000 best first collection prize, while the ?1,000 for best 
single poem will go to one of Judi Benson, David Constantine, Jean Harrison, Robert 
Minhinnick or Alison Prince. 


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3065097.stm

Published: 2003/07/15 01:17:26 GMT




From paul.lake  Wed Jul 16 14:23:48 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:23:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Josephine Jacobsen obit
In-Reply-To: <142.158ad17c.2c46eecf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BB3B0264.5136%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Sorry to hear about Jacobsen's death.  I always thought she was under-rated
as a poet.  Though a native of Baltimore, I never met her.  Wish I had.

Paul Lake



on 7/16/03 1:09 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Josephine Jacobsen, 94, nation's former top poet
> 
> 07/13/03
>> From wire reports
> 
> Cockeysville, Md.- Josephine Jacobsen, a poet, short- story writer and critic
> who held the post that later became that of national poet laureate, died
> Wednesday at 94. 
> 
> Jacobsen's first poem was printed in a children's magazine when she was 10,
> but she did not achieve widespread recognition until her 60s and 70s.
>    
> She was celebrated for elegant, concise phrasing on a wide range of topics
> and in varied forms, which she filled with nature and animal imagery. She
> plumbed questions of identity, interrelatedness and isolation.
> 
> In 1993, Jacobsen received the Shelley Memorial Award from the Poetry Society
> of America and in 1997 was given its highest award, the Robert Frost Medal
> for Lifetime Achievement in Poetry.
> 
> Among other things, the medal honored her generosity in helping younger,
> struggling poets get their work published, a quality considered rare in her
> profession. 
> 
> In 1971, L. Quincy Mumford, the librarian of Congress, named her consultant
> in poetry. She was only the fourth woman to receive the honor, and the first
> in 
> 21 years. Her male predecessors included Robert Frost, Conrad Aiken and, most
> immediately, William Stafford.
> 
> She gained critical attention with her first publication, "Let Each Man
> Remember" (Kaleidograph, 1940), a collage of 15 love sonnets interspersed with
> metaphysical love poems.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From grahamd  Wed Jul 16 15:33:09 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:33:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
Message-ID: <BB3B20B5.3D18%grahamd@ripon.edu>

An interesting and unusual book fell into my hands while I was on the road
recently. It's *Braided Creek*, by Jim Harrison and Ted Kooser (Copper
Canyon 2003).  The subtitle is *A Conversation in Poetry*, and the book
consists of a series of very brief, often epigrammatic poems without any
indication of who wrote what.



From paul  Wed Jul 16 15:57:49 2003
From: paul (Paul C. Howell)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:57:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1605 - Julian Bond
In-Reply-To: <200307161600.h6GG08ST009566@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030716155647.03a8ac50@mail.tbhinc.com>

"(AP)
Republicans appeal "to the dark underside of American culture, to that
minority of Americans who reject democracy and equality," NAACP Chairman
Julian Bond said yesterday at the civil rights group's 94th annual
convention."

Does this mean the Rice-Powell ploy isn't working?




From kellogg  Wed Jul 16 16:11:45 2003
From: kellogg (David Kellogg)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:11:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <BB3B20B5.3D18%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <BB3B20B5.3D18%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <27268465.1058371905@rdu57-253-143.nc.rr.com>

Olga Broumas has written two such books of poems with someone else without 
attribution: Sappho's Gymnamsium (with T. Begley) and a book with Jane 
Miller.  Let's see. I think William Stafford and Marvin Bell did a book 
with that structure too, though they might have attributions, I forget. 
And of course there's Tom Mandel and Daniel Davidson's brilliant _Absence 
Sensorium_: a long poem, but with a similar seamlessness and lack of 
attribution.  There must be others.

--On Wednesday, July 16, 2003 3:33 PM -0400 David Graham 
<grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:

> An interesting and unusual book fell into my hands while I was on the road
> recently. It's *Braided Creek*, by Jim Harrison and Ted Kooser (Copper
> Canyon 2003).  The subtitle is *A Conversation in Poetry*, and the book
> consists of a series of very brief, often epigrammatic poems without any
> indication of who wrote what.
>
> From the jacket copy:
>
> "When asked about attributions for the individual poems, one of them
> replied, 'Everyone gets tired of this continuing cult of the personality.
> . .  This book is an assertion in favor of poetry and against
> credentials.' "
>
> I can't offhand think of any comparable project in poetry.  Can anyone?
>
> Obviously, the object here is hardly anonymity:  Kooser's and Harrison's
> names (and reputations) are most definitely being used to sell the book.
> And I think it's pretty easy to guess who wrote what, in most cases,
> since their styles are so distinct.  Still, I appreciate the gesture.  In
> blurring individual attributions they are performing a small symbolic
> ritual in favor of poetry itself, just as they suggest--in favor of the
> power of language and imagination rather than simple personality.  They
> illustrate the ancient lyric distinction between the personal and the
> self-absorbed or
> self-displaying.
>
> The individual poems are not equally successful, it almost goes without
> saying.  The book reads rather like a collaborative journal, with a lot of
> back-and-forth banter, frivolity rubbing against profundity, playfulness
> mixing with seriousness, etc.
>
> Here are some excerpts, chosen nearly randomly in order to give some
> impression of the whole:
>
> Surely someone will help
> the mourning mourning dove,
> but who, but who?
>
> A coffin handle
> leaves a lasting impression
> on a hand.
>
> I hope there's time
> for this and that,
> and not just this.
>
> Trust snow to keep a secret.
>
> The old hen scratches
> then looks, scratches then looks.
> My life.
>
> The butterfly's brain,
> the size of a grain of salt,
> guides her to Mexico.
>
> An empty boat
> will volunteer for anything.
>
> So what if women
> no longer smile to see me?
> I smile to see them!
>
> Fifty-two degrees at noon, July 2.
> At the senior citizens' carwash
> all the oldsters try to look vigorous.
>
> I haven't forgotten
> to look in the mirror,
> I just don't
> do it anymore.
>
> What prizes and awards will I get for revealing
> the location of the human soul?  As Nixon said,
> I know how to win the war but I'm not telling.
>
> An old song from my youth:
> "I'm going to live, live, live
> until I die."  Well, perhaps not.
>
> Rowing across the lake
> all the dragonflies are screwing.
> Stop it.  It's Sunday.
>
> Everyone thought I'd die
> in my twenties, thirties, forties, fifties.
> This can't go on forever.
>
> --
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From FanwoodJEL  Wed Jul 16 16:13:16 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:13:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
Message-ID: <9.157a7f6f.2c470bdc@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/16/03 3:33:57 PM, grahamd at ripon.edu writes:


> Still, I appreciate the gesture.? In blurring
> individual attributions they are performing a small symbolic ritual in favor
> of poetry itself, just as they suggest--in favor of the power of language
> and imagination rather than simple personality.? They illustrate the ancient
> lyric distinction between the personal and the self-absorbed or
> self-displaying.
> 
> 

Fiddlesticks. Authorship is not about personality or credentials, it's about 
source, perception, weight of experience. I'm sorry, but source enriches the 
artistic experience. I'll make the argument if anyone really needs to see it. 
Simply stated, it matters, whose language, whose imagination. The self that 
creates is not synonymous with the self absorbed -- the inner poem isn't 
necessarily the inward poem, and the ego-less artist is just so much oxymoron. What I 
mean to say is, if art can synthesize itself, then let it! Nor for that matter 
is the creating self the self displayed. Not even in a self-portrait. Even 
less in a self-portrait. Only art is displayed despite our best efforts to 
presume upon the process, and if the creation, whatever its provenance, displays as 
much what's reflected as absorbed, and absorbs some of that. We ascribe what 
we will, anyway. It's a parlor trick these two are up to -- or have allowed 
themselves to be put up to -- realiant on the guessing game (hey, who do you 
think wrote this line?) which, as you so properly point out, is commercially and 
artistically reliant on the poets' names and artistically reliant on the 
reader's familiarity with the poets' work. As poets, we have more than enough, 
thank you very much, anonymity. It's just too cute for me. Too faux zen. Even a Li 
Po is a Li Po. Plop. 

Jeffrey Levine 
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From antrobin  Wed Jul 16 16:17:44 2003
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:17:44 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <BB3B20B5.3D18%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <000f01c34bd7$54bdc2c0$73391c40@Emily>

David Graham writes:

>I can't offhand think of any comparable project in poetry.  Can anyone?

Yup.  Lots.  Joshua Beckman and Matt Rohrer's "Nice Hat. Thanks." Comes
to mind.

Then, in a slightly different but far more interesting vein, there's
Araki Yasusada's "Doubled Flowering."

Tony






From marcus  Wed Jul 16 17:09:27 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:09:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <9.157a7f6f.2c470bdc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F1586C7.22848.1E7A209@localhost>

On 16 Jul 2003 at 16:13, FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
> Fiddlesticks. Authorship is not about personality or credentials, it's about 
> source, perception, weight of experience. I'm sorry, but source enriches the 
> artistic experience. I'll make the argument if anyone really needs to see it. 
> Simply stated, it matters, whose language, whose imagination. The self that 
> creates is not synonymous with the self absorbed -- the inner poem isn't 
> necessarily the inward poem, and the ego-less artist is just so much oxymoron. What I 
> mean to say is, if art can synthesize itself, then let it! Nor for that matter 
> is the creating self the self displayed. Not even in a self-portrait. Even 
> less in a self-portrait. Only art is displayed despite our best efforts to 
> presume upon the process, and if the creation, whatever its provenance, displays as 
> much what's reflected as absorbed, and absorbs some of that. We ascribe what 
> we will, anyway. It's a parlor trick these two are up to -- or have allowed 
> themselves to be put up to -- realiant on the guessing game (hey, who do you 
> think wrote this line?) which, as you so properly point out, is commercially and 
> artistically reliant on the poets' names and artistically reliant on the 
> reader's familiarity with the poets' work. As poets, we have more than enough, 
> thank you very much, anonymity. It's just too cute for me. Too faux zen. Even a Li 
> Po is a Li Po. Plop. 

Just so.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From jvcervantes  Wed Jul 16 19:33:04 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:33:04 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
References: <000f01c34bd7$54bdc2c0$73391c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <3F15E0B0.D65364D4@earthlink.net>

Uh well, there's _Changing the Subject_, by yours truly and Halvard
Johnson, promised from Red Hen Press.

- Jim

Anthony Robinson wrote:
> 
> David Graham writes:
> 
> >I can't offhand think of any comparable project in poetry.  Can anyone?
> 
> Yup.  Lots.  Joshua Beckman and Matt Rohrer's "Nice Hat. Thanks." Comes
> to mind.
> 
> Then, in a slightly different but far more interesting vein, there's
> Araki Yasusada's "Doubled Flowering."
> 
> Tony
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames  Wed Jul 16 21:05:48 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:05:48 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
Message-ID: <142.1590c03f.2c47506c@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/16/03 4:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes:

> Fiddlesticks. Authorship is not about personality or credentials, it's 
about 
>  source, perception, weight of experience. I'm sorry, but source enriches 
the 
> 
>  artistic experience. I'll make the argument if anyone really needs to see 
it.
>  
>  Simply stated, it matters, whose language, whose imagination. The self 
that 
>  creates is not synonymous with the self absorbed -- the inner poem isn't 
>  necessarily the inward poem, and the ego-less artist is just so much 
> oxymoron. 
Jeffrey, I'm somewhat in sympathy with what you say. I too am interested
in what the individual imagination/sensibility has to say. Collaborative art
tends to be, by & large, less compelling and more homogeneous. However, 
there is the New Genre Art (particularly related to Public Art), which 
emphasizes collaboration and demotes the individual artist to a state of anonymity 
for the good 
of the project (or its politcal thrust). A concept I can't disagree with 
completely since the artist (Kahlo, Warhol, Van Gogh) in this century has become 
(abetted by mass media), or has been reduced to (despite his/her obvious 
idiosyncratic merits), mere commodity.
Finnegan



From luap  Wed Jul 16 21:19:31 2003
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 20:19:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <142.1590c03f.2c47506c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307162016590.18246-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

To add my coinage to the discussion, what about online sites that offer
the ability to come up with a pseudonym and publish poetry? I have to
wonder sometimes if some of the so-called 'big names' in modern poetry
lurk on poetry forums, occasionally posting something w/out their 'name'
attached to it to see if they still indeed 'have it' or if people read
them just because of 'who they are' or 'who they were'...

I remember reading somewhere that either Isaac Asimov or Stephen King said
their names were to popular they could puiblish their grocery lists and
have it hit the bestsellers list.

-kpaul


On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/16/03 4:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes:
> 
> > Fiddlesticks. Authorship is not about personality or credentials, it's 
> about 
> >  source, perception, weight of experience. I'm sorry, but source enriches 
> the 
> > 
> >  artistic experience. I'll make the argument if anyone really needs to see 
> it.
> >  
> >  Simply stated, it matters, whose language, whose imagination. The self 
> that 
> >  creates is not synonymous with the self absorbed -- the inner poem isn't 
> >  necessarily the inward poem, and the ego-less artist is just so much 
> > oxymoron. 
> Jeffrey, I'm somewhat in sympathy with what you say. I too am interested
> in what the individual imagination/sensibility has to say. Collaborative art
> tends to be, by & large, less compelling and more homogeneous. However, 
> there is the New Genre Art (particularly related to Public Art), which 
> emphasizes collaboration and demotes the individual artist to a state of anonymity 
> for the good 
> of the project (or its politcal thrust). A concept I can't disagree with 
> completely since the artist (Kahlo, Warhol, Van Gogh) in this century has become 
> (abetted by mass media), or has been reduced to (despite his/her obvious 
> idiosyncratic merits), mere commodity.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From grahamd  Wed Jul 16 21:35:30 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:35:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <9.157a7f6f.2c470bdc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BB3B75A1.3D4D%grahamd@ripon.edu>

I don't suppose I disagree entirely with what you say, Jeffrey.  I called
the Kooser/Harrison book's lack of attribution a gesture, "a small symbolic
ritual in favor of poetry itself," and, as the journalists say, I stand by
my story.  But I could go with "parlor trick" as well, I think.  It's that,
too.  

Ah, but there are things that are important beyond all these fiddlesticks!
And that includes the poetry itself, as you (and Kooser Harrison) seem to
agree.  And, as I can't help noticing, no one has yet commented on the
poetry in this case.

I'm not sure I'm ready to make any argument of all this, but I admit I am
cocking my head skeptically at the thought that "source enriches artistic
experience."  Well, surely so a lot of the time, but hardly necessarily, I'd
say, given the long and splendid career of old Anon.

Thanks to those who mentioned other examples of collaborative collections
without authorial attribution.  The Bell/Stafford book is not one of them,
though, since those individual poems are definitely both addressed and
signed.  Jim C, are you and Hal Johnson omitting names from your individual
poems in your forthcoming book?  If so, I'd be interested in hearing a bit
about what prompted you to this gesture.
-- 
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================


From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:13:16 EDT
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser



In a message dated 7/16/03 3:33:57 PM, grahamd at ripon.edu writes:


Still, I appreciate the gesture.? In blurring
individual attributions they are performing a small symbolic ritual in favor
of poetry itself, just as they suggest--in favor of the power of language
and imagination rather than simple personality.? They illustrate the ancient
lyric distinction between the personal and the self-absorbed or
self-displaying.



Fiddlesticks. Authorship is not about personality or credentials, it's about
source, perception, weight of experience. I'm sorry, but source enriches the
artistic experience. I'll make the argument if anyone really needs to see
it. Simply stated, it matters, whose language, whose imagination. The self
that creates is not synonymous with the self absorbed -- the inner poem
isn't necessarily the inward poem, and the ego-less artist is just so much
oxymoron. What I mean to say is, if art can synthesize itself, then let it!
Nor for that matter is the creating self the self displayed. Not even in a
self-portrait. Even less in a self-portrait. Only art is displayed despite
our best efforts to presume upon the process, and if the creation, whatever
its provenance, displays as much what's reflected as absorbed, and absorbs
some of that. We ascribe what we will, anyway. It's a parlor trick these two
are up to -- or have allowed themselves to be put up to -- realiant on the
guessing game (hey, who do you think wrote this line?) which, as you so
properly point out, is commercially and artistically reliant on the poets'
names and artistically reliant on the reader's familiarity with the poets'
work. As poets, we have more than enough, thank you very much, anonymity.
It's just too cute for me. Too faux zen. Even a Li Po is a Li Po. Plop.

Jeffrey Levine 


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From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 17 08:37:34 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 05:37:34 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
References: <BB3B75A1.3D4D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F16988E.502EDD9@earthlink.net>

David Graham wrote:
> 
> I don't suppose I disagree entirely with what you say, Jeffrey.  I
> called the Kooser/Harrison book's lack of attribution a gesture, "a
> small symbolic ritual in favor of poetry itself," and, as the
> journalists say, I stand by my story.  But I could go with "parlor
> trick" as well, I think.  It's that, too.
> 
> Ah, but there are things that are important beyond all these
> fiddlesticks!  And that includes the poetry itself, as you (and Kooser
> Harrison) seem to agree.  And, as I can't help noticing, no one has
> yet commented on the poetry in this case.

A little tough to do, David, without the book!  But, if the whole is
similar to the samples you posted, then I'd call it aphoristic . . .
supershallowaphoristic. 

> 
> snip
> 
> 
> Thanks to those who mentioned other examples of collaborative
> collections without authorial attribution.  The Bell/Stafford book is
> not one of them, though, since those individual poems are definitely
> both addressed and signed.  Jim C, are you and Hal Johnson omitting
> names from your individual poems in your forthcoming book?  If so, I'd
> be interested in hearing a bit about what prompted you to this
> gesture.

No definitive answer since after two years it's not even in galley stage
- I think the press is having troubles and our book is low in the
priorities.  But, speaking for myself (Hal being on vacation in Maine,
though possibly lurking), I'd not be averse to dropping names from
individual poems.  My ego left several years ago with all its baggage. 
I do get a postcard now and then.

- Jim



From marcus  Thu Jul 17 09:13:01 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:13:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <BB3B75A1.3D4D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
References: <9.157a7f6f.2c470bdc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F16689D.29329.2D2368@localhost>

On 16 Jul 2003 at 21:35, David Graham wrote:
> ...  I'm not sure I'm ready to make any argument of all this, but I admit I am
> cocking my head skeptically at the thought that "source enriches artistic
> experience."  Well, surely so a lot of the time, but hardly necessarily, I'd
> say, given the long and splendid career of old Anon.

Old Anon did some pretty raw stuff, occasionally leavened by a good 
bit here or there. No doubt a lot of Old Anon's best stuff was 
polished by many hands and that's why it's Anon instead of located in 
one imagination with a couple dates attached.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From hruggier  Thu Jul 17 09:40:35 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:40:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
References: <BB3B75A1.3D4D%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F16A752.62601006@localnet.com>

I really, really liked the book - it has a "renga" feel to it - a
collaborative Japanese form where the authorship alternates.  The
Japanese though kept track of the author of each verse.

How sharp must be the fletcher's knife
to split a feather
and leave in both halves flight.

But the seventeen-year cicada
has only one syllable.

and back to the who's evil stuff:

Republicans think that all over the world
darker-skinned people are having more fun
than they are.  It's largely true.


Some really good stuff in this book.

David Graham wrote:

> I don't suppose I disagree entirely with what you say, Jeffrey.  I
> called the Kooser/Harrison book's lack of attribution a gesture, "a
> small symbolic ritual in favor of poetry itself," and, as the
> journalists say, I stand by my story.  But I could go with "parlor
> trick" as well, I think.  It's that, too.
>
> Ah, but there are things that are important beyond all these
> fiddlesticks!  And that includes the poetry itself, as you (and Kooser
> Harrison) seem to agree.  And, as I can't help noticing, no one has
> yet commented on the poetry in this case.
>
> I'm not sure I'm ready to make any argument of all this, but I admit I
> am cocking my head skeptically at the thought that "source enriches
> artistic experience."  Well, surely so a lot of the time, but hardly
> necessarily, I'd say, given the long and splendid career of old Anon.
>
> Thanks to those who mentioned other examples of collaborative
> collections without authorial attribution.  The Bell/Stafford book is
> not one of them, though, since those individual poems are definitely
> both addressed and signed.  Jim C, are you and Hal Johnson omitting
> names from your individual poems in your forthcoming book?  If so, I'd
> be interested in hearing a bit about what prompted you to this
> gesture.
> --
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
>
>      From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com
>      Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>      Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:13:16 EDT
>      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
>
>
>
>      In a message dated 7/16/03 3:33:57 PM, grahamd at ripon.edu
>      writes:
>
>
>      Still, I appreciate the gesture.  In blurring
>      individual attributions they are performing a small symbolic
>      ritual in favor
>      of poetry itself, just as they suggest--in favor of the
>      power of language
>      and imagination rather than simple personality.  They
>      illustrate the ancient
>      lyric distinction between the personal and the self-absorbed
>      or
>      self-displaying.
>
>
>
>      Fiddlesticks. Authorship is not about personality or
>      credentials, it's about source, perception, weight of
>      experience. I'm sorry, but source enriches the artistic
>      experience. I'll make the argument if anyone really needs to
>      see it. Simply stated, it matters, whose language, whose
>      imagination. The self that creates is not synonymous with
>      the self absorbed -- the inner poem isn't necessarily the
>      inward poem, and the ego-less artist is just so much
>      oxymoron. What I mean to say is, if art can synthesize
>      itself, then let it! Nor for that matter is the creating
>      self the self displayed. Not even in a self-portrait. Even
>      less in a self-portrait. Only art is displayed despite our
>      best efforts to presume upon the process, and if the
>      creation, whatever its provenance, displays as much what's
>      reflected as absorbed, and absorbs some of that. We ascribe
>      what we will, anyway. It's a parlor trick these two are up
>      to -- or have allowed themselves to be put up to -- realiant
>      on the guessing game (hey, who do you think wrote this
>      line?) which, as you so properly point out, is commercially
>      and artistically reliant on the poets' names and
>      artistically reliant on the reader's familiarity with the
>      poets' work. As poets, we have more than enough, thank you
>      very much, anonymity. It's just too cute for me. Too faux
>      zen. Even a Li Po is a Li Po. Plop.
>
>      Jeffrey Levine
>
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From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 17 09:38:46 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 06:38:46 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
References: <9.157a7f6f.2c470bdc@aol.com> <3F16689D.29329.2D2368@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F16A6E6.922DE350@earthlink.net>


Marcus Bales wrote:
> 
> On 16 Jul 2003 at 21:35, David Graham wrote:
> > ...  I'm not sure I'm ready to make any argument of all this, but I admit I am
> > cocking my head skeptically at the thought that "source enriches artistic
> > experience."  Well, surely so a lot of the time, but hardly necessarily, I'd
> > say, given the long and splendid career of old Anon.
> 
> Old Anon did some pretty raw stuff, occasionally leavened by a good
> bit here or there. No doubt a lot of Old Anon's best stuff was
> polished by many hands and that's why it's Anon instead of located in
> one imagination with a couple dates attached.

And, Kofi Anon, once ostracized by the Court of Emperor Shrub for his
dissonant narratives, is now being courted by same because it's time to rhyme.

- an observer



From marcus  Thu Jul 17 09:55:33 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:55:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
In-Reply-To: <3F16A6E6.922DE350@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F167295.2186.54121B@localhost>

> > On 16 Jul 2003 at 21:35, David Graham wrote:
> > > ...  I'm not sure I'm ready to make any argument of all this, but I admit I am
> > > cocking my head skeptically at the thought that "source enriches artistic
> > > experience."  Well, surely so a lot of the time, but hardly necessarily, I'd
> > > say, given the long and splendid career of old Anon.

Marcus Bales:
> > Old Anon did some pretty raw stuff, occasionally leavened by a good
> > bit here or there. No doubt a lot of Old Anon's best stuff was
> > polished by many hands and that's why it's Anon instead of located in
> > one imagination with a couple dates attached.

Jim Cervantes: 
> And, Kofi Anon, once ostracized by the Court of Emperor Shrub for his
> dissonant narratives, is now being courted by same because it's time to rhyme.

Ah, jealousy, Jim!  You disparage what you cannot do.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From FanwoodJEL  Thu Jul 17 11:07:29 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:07:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Harrison Kooser
Message-ID: <180.1d4e7d10.2c4815b1@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/16/03 9:37:07 PM, grahamd at ripon.edu writes:


> And, as I can't help noticing, no one has yet commented on the poetry in 
> this case.
> 
> I'm not sure I'm ready to make any argument of all this, but I admit I am 
> cocking my head skeptically at the thought that "source enriches artistic 
> experience." ?Well, surely so a lot of the time, but hardly necessarily, I'd say, 
> given the long and splendid career of old Anon. ?
> 
David, I've not seen the whole book. From the snippet you sent, I've not much 
to say about the work as poetry. It seems to me there are a few clever lines 
in the aphoristic sense. For me, the exchanges suffer as a result of the very 
limitation proposed as mild salvation: there are two creative minds at work, 
and I want the intellectual, dramatic and aesthetic tension that's lost when 
the two voices are clearly antiphonal. It would work better for me if I could 
hear Kooser's bright tenor sax out of one speaker, and Harrison's -- what? -- 
guitar? banjo? from the other. The guessing game feels intrusive and ultimately 
spoils the fun and the art. That said, I think there is, in fact, something 
inherently interesting in the nature of poetic exchanges. If improvisatory in 
feel, and if the improvisation is captivating, then this sort of line trading or 
idea trading can be quite satisfying, even fascinating. Improvisation is 
nothing if not play, and I don't mean to be at all dismissive about that word -- 
as in wordplay or even playfulness. I think, rather, that the 
imaginative/associative leap is atavistically linked to the notion of play -- the leap in all 
its forms -- poetry, painting, philosophy, religion, even (and especially) 
science. We learn to make these leaps when, very young, we acquire language. This 
is why a classroom of first or second graders write wonderfully surrealistic 
poetry. As for old Anon., we're in very different terrain when we juxtapose the 
inability to devolve an historic attribution with waters willfully muddied. 
When we're talking about larger anonymous works -- whole poems, for example -- 
we (or I, anyway) -- tend to create a persona for the writer. Isn't this 
exactly what we do with Shakespeare, whoever he was? (And I'm not presupposing a 
single author.) Shakespeare aside, with poem-length works by Old Anon., I tend 
to fill in the blanks . . . this Old Anon, the one who has such-and-such sorts 
of sensibilities, favors this sort of syntax, tone, or has a coherent body of 
concerns. I like this Anon, and I'm not c

Jeffrey 
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From FanwoodJEL  Thu Jul 17 11:22:54 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:22:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
Message-ID: <95.30419b4f.2c48194e@aol.com>


In a message dated 7/16/03 9:06:39 PM, JforJames at aol.com writes:


> Collaborative art
> tends to be, by & large, less compelling and more homogeneous. However,
> there is the New Genre Art (particularly related to Public Art), which
> emphasizes collaboration and demotes the individual artist to a state of 
> anonymity
> for the good
> of the project (or its politcal thrust). A concept I can't disagree with
> completely since the artist (Kahlo, Warhol, Van Gogh) in this century has 
> become
> (abetted by mass media), or has been reduced to (despite his/her obvious
> idiosyncratic merits), mere commodity.
> Finnegan
> 
Jim,

I'm certain you're right in the sense that anything marketed in a market 
economy gets reduced to mere commodity -- art/soup -- as Warhol made plain. 
Strikes me as all the more compelling then to hold on to identity as tenaciously as 
ever we can. We can already buy books by the pound, paintings by the sheet. 
Stephen King freely admits (rather smugly, I think) that even his grocery list 
would be an instant best seller. Harry Potter is a brand name, and so for that 
matter is Billy Collins (though I do not here lump them). Splat a dozen Monets 
on a calendar and you have an instant seller. Oh, how beautiful . . . water 
lilies! Well . . . Monet wasn't the slightest bit interested in beauty or, for 
that matter, water lilies. He was interested in light, in how we perceive, in 
how light reflects off of a particular surfaces and how our eyes re
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From FanwoodJEL  Thu Jul 17 11:32:59 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:32:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
Message-ID: <d.15134e42.2c481bab@aol.com>

oops . . . having trouble with a new laptop . . . 


As I was saying, Monet was interested in light, in how we perceive, in how 
light reflects off of a particular surface and in how our eyes respond to that 
light. So there's a for instance, and my point is this: it magnifies and 
enriches the experience of art -- many times over -- if you know something of the 
source and what the source is/was about. You get context. You access intent. 
Holds true for Van Gogh, Kahlo, or any other artist -- Olga Broumas or James 
Finnegan -- otherwise you might as well publish poems or paintings on boxes of 
Wheaties. And even if you did, it would still be art if presented as art, more 
satisfying (to me, anyway) if attributed. 

Jeffrey Levine
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From anny.ballardini  Thu Jul 17 13:28:56 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 19:28:56 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] storm
Message-ID: <000c01c34c88$e73e7840$c51c2dd5@anny>

the storm is coming 

engulfing trees 

green masses displaced

every single leaf joins in a muffled shhhheeeeessss 

louder than traffic

birds-people fast disappear

the light clicks down to darker tones 

step by step as if mechanically drawn

 

an intense luminous glow hovering from the roundness of the sky

energies abound in this heat / wind / rain to come

my eyes see what is not here

in my body the desire to escape from gravity

 

thunders bring back to a primitive fear and I bend like the branches of an oak

shut the windows --- switch off the pc / a spasm gripping my stomach

 

Relief - I can breathe

thank you god I fell blessed again

 

in this sudden November /// the thick taste of books to be read by a blond child

is brought back - with the fire - in the water

 

 
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From jvcervantes  Fri Jul 18 10:38:44 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:38:44 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] tragic news: Komunyakaa
Message-ID: <3F180673.EDAC517D@earthlink.net>

In Final Hours, Despair Defeated Poet

By David A. Fahrenthold  and Simone Weichselbaum

  A prize-winning poet who used verse to describe her experiences as a child
and as an Indian immigrant was identified by D.C. police yesterday as the
woman who apparently slashed the left wrist of her 2-year-old son and her
own Wednesday and then died with him in a pool of blood.

Reetika Vazirani, 40, and Jehan Vazirani Komunyakaa were found lying next
to each other in the dining room of a house in the Chevy Chase section of
Washington, where Vazirani was house-sitting.

Police called the deaths an apparent murder-suicide, but no official ruling
has been made. Investigators found a note with references to the boy's
father, Pulitzer-Prize-winning poet Yusef Komunyakaa, according to sources
familiar with the investigation.

Komunyakaa could not be reached yesterday, and relatives in the area would
not comment, said one woman who would not identify herself at a family home
in Silver Spring.

Neighbors and friends said there had been signs that Vazirani was
distraught. The day before the bodies were found, they said, she sought a
meeting with a neighborhood priest and borrowed a Bible from a neighbor.

Vazirani and her son were staying for the summer in a three-story house in
the 3600 block of Quesada Street NW. It is the Washington home of novelist
Howard Norman and poet Jane Shore, friends of Vazirani's, who are spending
the summer at their home in Vermont.

Denise King-Miller, a friend, said Vazirani had spoken to her about
personal problems, some involving her relationship with Komunyakaa, a
Princeton University professor.

But King-Miller said Vazirani had come to dinner Monday and seemed
upbeat -- talking about her son's first time playing in a sandbox and about
washing sand off him. "Her conversation with me was really about how she was
going to move forward," King-Miller said.

On Tuesday, Vazirani went to the office of Percival D'Silva, a priest at
the Shrine of the Most Blessed Sacrament, across the street from the home.
Yesterday, D'Silva said that Vazirani was a striking and youthful-looking
woman  and that she had not visited him before. She told him that she had
been in a Baptist prayer group in Williamsburg, he said. "She was
distraught," D'Silva said. He said he would not give more details about the
meeting.

On the same day, Vazirani visited a couple next door and "matter-of-factly"
asked to borrow a Bible, said Frank Nash, the couple's son. Nash said his
parents were "feeling remorse that they didn't know that she was trying to
reach out."

Before 8 a.m. Wednesday, King-Miller said, Vazirani left her a voice mail
saying, "I think I'm going to hurt myself." King-Miller said she got the
message later and began calling Vazirani every hour but got no answer.

Also that day, according to a police source, Vazirani left a voice mail for
another friend, saying, "I'm having a kind of emergency now, and I
wanted to
make sure you could let yourself in." That friend visited the house before
4:30 p.m. and found the bodies lying parallel to one another on the floor
with two large kitchen knives nearby. Mother and son appeared to have been
dead for hours, one source familiar with the scene said.

Shore said yesterday by phone that her family was still in Vermont and knew
little about what had happened in their Washington home.

"We feel just horrible," she said. "Just a horrible thing."

Vazirani's editor described her as a warm, intelligent person whose poems
explored the two worlds that immigrants inhabit. Her work was published in
several poetry journals in addition to her books, and she was active in
creative writing circles. She won the 2003 Anisfield-Wolf Book Award for her
second book, "World Hotel," and a Barnard New Women Poets Prize for her
first, "White Elephants," published in 1996.

According to friends, Vazirani came to this country from India when she was
about 6, settling in Silver Spring. Her father, an oral surgeon, was a
faculty member and an assistant dean at the Howard University College of
Dentistry.

Vazirani has written that she began writing poetry when she was 25 and
spent eight years working on her first book.

"She's truly an international, lyrical poet . . . an accomplished lyrical
storyteller," said Sam Hamill, whose Copper Canyon Press published
Vazirani's second book. "She wrote about being in both cultures and between
both cultures."

Samples of her poetry describe life in India and in the United States and
the impact of immigration on her family. In one poem, "Memory I," she wrote,
"He grew strange, my father, caught between two accents and two worlds."

"She definitely was one of the writers to watch," said E. Ethelbert Miller,
King-Miller's husband and the director of the African American Resource
Center at Howard University. "She was really representing . . . the new
Indian voice, in dealing with the issue of finding one's place, or home"
after immigration.

Vazirani was a writer-in-residence last year at the College of William and
Mary in Williamsburg. Later this year, she and Komunyakaa were to join the
faculty at Emory University in Atlanta.

"This is a terrible loss for all of us at Emory, as well as the world of
poetry," said Jim Grimsley, director of the university's creative writing
program.

King-Miller said: "It's just sad, you know. She was such a beautiful
spirit. It's just a loss to the world."



Staff researcher Bobbye Pratt and staff writer S. Mitra Kalita contributed
to this report.


? 2003 The Washington Post Company




From paul.lake  Fri Jul 18 11:28:03 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:28:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA Boost
Message-ID: <BB3D7C33.514F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>



???NEA boost 
????A group called the Association of Performing Arts Presenters says it is
"thrilled" with the 225-200 passage of a House amendment to increase funding
for the National Endowment for the Arts.
???? The amendment was sponsored by Reps. Louise M. Slaughter, New York
Democrat; Norm Dicks, Washington Democrat; Christopher Shays, Connecticut
Republican; and Jim Leach, Iowa Republican.
????"While we await passage of the final bill, this amendment demonstrates
Congress' firm commitment and understanding of the importance of the arts
and the work of the NEA," Sandra Gibson, president and chief executive of
the Association of Performing Arts Presenters, said in a prepared statement.

*

Good luck with the new funds, Dana.  

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From marcus  Fri Jul 18 11:55:00 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:55:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA Boost
In-Reply-To: <BB3D7C33.514F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F17E014.23239.1C8DC6@localhost>

> ???NEA boost 
> ????A group called the Association of Performing Arts Presenters says it is
> "thrilled" with the 225-200 passage of a House amendment to increase funding
> for the National Endowment for the Arts.
> ???? The amendment was sponsored by Reps. Louise M. Slaughter, New York
> Democrat; Norm Dicks, Washington Democrat; ...<<

The Slaughter Dicks Law?

Jeez.  

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com







From jvcervantes  Sat Jul 19 19:39:54 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:39:54 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4
References: <BAF19EFD.2AD1%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F19D6C9.427CD44B@earthlink.net>

just in case my cookies got burned or I got unsubscribed somehow



From FanwoodJEL  Sat Jul 19 20:31:46 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 20:31:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4
Message-ID: <103.32c737eb.2c4b3cf2@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/19/2003 7:41:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:

> just in case my cookies got burned or I got unsubscribed somehow
> 

shhh . . . we're all busy searching for weapons of mass destruction . . .

jl
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From jvcervantes  Sat Jul 19 21:35:01 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:35:01 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4
References: <103.32c737eb.2c4b3cf2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F19F1C6.EF32759@earthlink.net>

FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:

> shhh . . . we're all busy searching for weapons of mass destruction . . .

. . . psst . . . over there . . . the oasis one kilometer west of the
Iranian border . . . no . . . wait . . . they're not finished burying
them yet . . .

post-operative agent x4325

10-4



From tadrichards  Sat Jul 19 23:16:47 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 23:16:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4
References: <103.32c737eb.2c4b3cf2@aol.com> <3F19F1C6.EF32759@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002301c34e6d$5bfa54c0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

I suspect a French connection...look in the rocker panels,


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4


> FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
>
> > shhh . . . we're all busy searching for weapons of mass destruction . .
.
>
> . . . psst . . . over there . . . the oasis one kilometer west of the
> Iranian border . . . no . . . wait . . . they're not finished burying
> them yet . . .
>
> post-operative agent x4325
>
> 10-4
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From anny.ballardini  Sun Jul 20 04:55:11 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:55:11 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4
References: <103.32c737eb.2c4b3cf2@aol.com> <3F19F1C6.EF32759@earthlink.net> <002301c34e6d$5bfa54c0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <006101c34e9c$a18330a0$2e607550@anny>

You don't know but I do, the guilty ones are the Italians, never trust them,
I have been preaching it around for centuries by now.

From: "TheOldMole" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> I suspect a French connection...look in the rocker panels,
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2003 9:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] testing testing 1 2 3 . . . 1 2 3 4
>
>
> > FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > shhh . . . we're all busy searching for weapons of mass destruction .
.
> .
> >
> > . . . psst . . . over there . . . the oasis one kilometer west of the
> > Iranian border . . . no . . . wait . . . they're not finished burying
> > them yet . . .
> >
> > post-operative agent x4325
> >
> > 10-4
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From jvcervantes  Sun Jul 20 11:47:45 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 08:47:45 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
Message-ID: <3F1AB9A1.E440328@earthlink.net>

One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect. 
Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
these things.

- Jim



From gmguddi  Sun Jul 20 11:55:35 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 10:55:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
In-Reply-To: <3F1AB9A1.E440328@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030720104947.045f0e28@mail.ilstu.edu>

It is not Elijah Butler who is after my subscription or acquiescence to his 
wares or the wiring of my software -- but several companies who want to 
increase the size of my penis or allow it to stand more rampantly, stiff as 
the tractor's tire, via this or that new Viagra. I do not need my penis 
size increased, thank you, being satisfied with it, and am daily deluged by 
those who want to increase my insurance, decrease my debt, allow me to see 
the firmest nipples of the most petite of Asian womens. If Elijah Butler 
rings his bell in my inboxes, I will send along your regards, Jim. gg

At 08:47 AM 7/20/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
>One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
>Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
>and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
>all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
>not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect.
>Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
>it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
>subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
>these things.
>
>- Jim
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From gmguddi  Sun Jul 20 12:13:12 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:13:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Chomsky on the Use of Language to Persuade and Control
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030720111230.012fee28@mail.ilstu.edu>

[from the July/Aug issue of Z Magazine]

Collateral Language
An Interview With Noam Chomsky

David Barsamian

------------------------------------

Noam Chomsky is Institute Professor in the Department of Linguistics and
Philosophy at MIT. He is the author of scores of books-his latest are
Power and Terror and Middle East Illusions. His book 9-11 was an
international bestseller.

BARSAMIAN: In recent years, the Pentagon, and then the media, have
adopted this term "collateral damage" to describe the death of
civilians. Talk about the role of language in shaping and forming
people's understanding of events.

CHOMSKY: Well, it's as old as history. It has nothing much to do with
language. Language is the way we interact and communicate, so,
naturally, the means of communication and the conceptual background
that's behind it, which is more important, are used to try to shape
attitudes and opinions and induce conformity and subordination. Not
surprisingly, it was created in the more democratic societies.

The first coordinated propaganda ministry, called the Ministry of
Information, was in Britain during World War I. It had the task, as they
put it, of controlling the mind of the world. What they were
particularly concerned with was the mind of America and, more
specifically, the mind of American intellectuals. They thought if they
could convince American intellectuals of the nobility of the British war
effort, then American intellectuals could succeed in driving the
basically pacifist population of the United States, which didn't want to
have anything to do with European wars, rightly, into a fit of
fanaticism and hysteria, which would get them to join the war. Britain
needed U.S. backing, so Britain had its Ministry of Information aimed
primarily at American opinion and opinion leaders. The Wilson
administration reacted by setting up the first state propaganda agency
here, called the Committee on Public Information.

It succeeded brilliantly, mainly with liberal American intellectuals,
people of the John Dewey circle, who actually took pride in the fact
that for the first time in history, according to their picture, a
wartime fanaticism was created, and not by military leaders and
politicians but by the more responsible, serious members of the
community, namely, thoughtful intellectuals. And they did organize a
campaign of propaganda, which within a few months did succeed in turning
a relatively pacifist population into raving anti-German fanatics who
wanted to destroy everything German. It reached the point where the
Boston Symphony Orchestra couldn't play Bach. The country was driven
into hysteria.

The members of Wilson's propaganda agency included people like Edward
Bernays, who became the guru of the public relations industry, and
Walter Lippmann, the leading public intellectual of the 20th century,
the most respected media figure. They very explicitly drew from that
experience. If you look at their writings in the 1920s, they said, We
have learned from this that you can control the public mind, you can
control attitudes and opinions. That's where Lippmann said, "We can
manufacture consent by the means of propaganda." Bernays said, "The more
intelligent members of the community can drive the population into
whatever they want" by what he called "engineering of consent." It's the
"essence of democracy," he said.

It also led to the rise of the public relations industry. It's
interesting to look at the thinking in the 1920s, when it got started.
This was the period of Taylorism in industry, when workers were being
trained to become robots, every motion controlled. It created highly
efficient industry, with human beings turned into automata. The
Bolsheviks were very impressed with it, too. They tried to duplicate it.
In fact, they tried throughout the world.But the thought-control experts
realized that you could not only have what was called on-job control but
also off-job control. It's their phrase. Control them off job by
inducing a philosophy of futility, focusing people on the superficial
things of life, like fashionable consumption, and basically get them out
of our hair. Let the people who are supposed to run the show do it
without any interference from the mass of the population, who have no
business in the public arena. From that come enormous industries,
ranging from advertising to universities, all committed very consciously
to the conception that you must control attitudes and opinions because
the people are just too dangerous.

It's particularly striking that it developed in the more democratic
societies. They tried to duplicate it in Germany and Bolshevik Russia
and South Africa and elsewhere. But it was always quite explicitly a
mostly American model. There is a good reason for that. If you can
control people by force, it's not so important to control what they
think and feel. But if you lose the capacity to control people by force,
it becomes more necessary to control attitudes and opinions.

That brings us right up to the present. By now the public is no longer
willing to accept state propaganda agencies, so the Reagan Office of
Public Diplomacy was declared illegal and had to go in roundabout ways.
What took over instead was private tyrannies, basically, corporate
systems, which play the role of controlling opinion and attitudes, not
taking orders from the government, but closely linked to it, of course.
That's our contemporary system. Extremely self-conscious. You don't have
to speculate much about what they're doing because they're kind enough
to tell you in industry publications and also in the academic
literature.

So you go to, say, the 1930s, perhaps the founder of a good bit of
modern political science. A liberal Wilsonian, Harold Lasswell, in 1933
wrote an article called "Propaganda" in the Encyclopedia of Social
Sciences, a major publication, in which the message was, "We should not
[all of these are quotes, incidentally] succumb to democratic dogmatisms
about men being the best judges of their own interests." They're not, we
are. And since people are too stupid and ignorant to understand their
best interests, for their own benefit-because we're great
humanitarians-we must marginalize and control them. The best means is
propaganda. There is nothing negative about propaganda, he said. It's as
neutral as a pump handle. You can use it for good or for evil. And since
we're noble, wonderful people, we'll use it for good, to ensure that the
stupid, ignorant masses remain marginalized and separated from any
decision-making capacity.

The Leninist doctrines are approximately the same. There are very close
similarities. The Nazis also picked it up. If you read Mein Kampf,
Hitler was very impressed with Anglo-American propaganda. He argued, not
without reason, that that's what won World War I and vowed that next
time around the Germans would be ready, too, and developed their own
propaganda systems modeled on the democracies. The Russians tried it,
but it was too crude to be effective. South Africa used it; others,
right up to the present. But the real forefront is the United States,
because it's the most free and democratic society, and it's just much
more important to control attitudes and opinions.

You can read it in the New York Times. They ran an interesting article
about Carl Rove, the president's manager-basically his minder, the one
who teaches him what to say and do. It describes what Carl Rove is doing
now. He was not directly involved in the war planning, but neither was
Bush. This was in the hands of other people. But his goal, he says, is
to present the president as a powerful wartime leader, aimed at the next
presidential election, so that the Republicans can push through their
domestic agenda, which is what he concentrates on, which means tax
cuts-they say for the economy, but they mean for the rich-tax cuts and
other programs which he doesn't bother enumerating, but which are
designed to benefit an extremely small sector of the ultra-wealthy and
privileged and will have the effect of harming the mass of the
population.  But more significant than that-it's not outlined in the
article-is to try to destroy the institutional basis for social support
systems, try to eliminate things like schools and Social Security and
anything that is based on the conception that people have to have some
concern for one another. That's a horrible idea, which has to be driven
out of people's minds. The idea that you should have sympathy and
solidarity, you should care whether the disabled widow across town is
able to eat, that has to be driven out of people's minds.

Clearly, there is a huge gap on the Iraq war between U.S. public opinion
and the rest of the world. Do you attribute that to propaganda?

There is just no question about it. The campaign about Iraq took off
last September. This is so obvious it's even discussed in mainstream
publications, like the chief political analyst for UPI, Martin Sieff,
has a long article describing how it was done. In September, which
happened to be the opening of the midterm congressional campaign, that's
when the drumbeat of wartime propaganda began. It had a couple of
constant themes. One big lie was that Iraq was an imminent threat to the
security of the United States. We have got to stop them now or they're
going to destroy us tomorrow. The second big lie was that Iraq was
behind September 11. Nobody says it straight out; it's kind of
insinuated.

Take a look at the polls. They reflected the propaganda very directly.
The propaganda is distributed by the media. They don't make it up, they
just distribute it. You can attribute it to high government officials or
whatever you like. But the campaign was reflected very quickly in the
polls. By September and since then, roughly 60 percent, oscillating
around that, of the population believes that Iraq is a threat to our
security. Congress, if you look at the declaration of October, when they
authorized the president to use force, said Iraq is a threat to the
security of the United States. By now about half the population, maybe
more by now, believes that Iraq was responsible for September 11, that
Iraqis were on the planes, that they are planning new ones.

There is no one else in the world that believes any of this; there is no
country where Iraq is regarded as a threat to their security. Kuwait and
Iran, which were both invaded by Iraq, don't regard Iraq as a threat to
their security. Iraq is the weakest country in the region, and as a
result of the sanctions, which have killed hundreds of thousands of
people-about probably two-thirds of the population is on the edge of
starvation-the country has the weakest economy and the weakest military
force in the region. Its economy and its military-force expenditures are
about a third those of Kuwait, which has 10 percent of its population,
and well below others. Of course, everybody in the region knows that
there is a superpower there, offshore U.S. military base, Israel, which
has hundreds of nuclear weapons and massive armed forces and totally
dominates anything.

But only in the United States is there fear or any of these beliefs. You
can trace the growth of the beliefs to the propaganda. It's interesting
that the United States is so susceptible to this. There is a background,
a cultural background, which is interesting. But whatever the reasons
are for it, the United States happens to be a very frightened country by
comparative standards. Levels of fear here of almost everything, crime,
aliens, you pick it, are just off the spectrum. You can argue, you can
inquire into the reasons, but the background is there.

What is it that makes it susceptible to propaganda?

That's a good question I don't say it's more susceptible to propaganda;
it's more susceptible to fear. It's a frightened country. The reasons
for this-I don't, frankly, understand them, but they're there, and they
go way back in American history. It probably has to do with conquest of
the continent, where you had to exterminate the native population;
slavery, where you had to control a population that was regarded as
dangerous, because you never knew when they were going to turn on you.
It may just be a reflection of the enormous security. The security of
the United States is beyond anyone else. The United States controls the
hemisphere, it controls both oceans, it controls the opposite sides of
both oceans, never been threatened. The last time the U.S. was
threatened was the War of 1812. Since then it just conquers others. And
somehow this engenders a sense that somebody is going to come after us.
So the country ends up being very frightened.

There is a reason why Carl Rove is the most important person in the
administration. He is the public relations expert in charge of crafting
the images. So you can drive through the domestic agendas, carry out the
international policies by frightening people and creating the impression
that a powerful leader is going to save you from imminent destruction.
The Times virtually says it because it's very hard to keep hidden. It is
second nature.

One of the new lexical constructions that I'd like you to comment on is
"embedded journalists."

That's an interesting one. It is interesting that journalists are
willing to accept it. No honest journalist would be willing to describe
himself or herself as "embedded." To say "I'm an embedded journalist" is
to say "I'm a government propagandist." But it's accepted. And it helps
implant the conception that anything we do is right and just; so
therefore, if you're embedded in an American unit, you're
objective.Actually, the same thing showed up, in some ways even more
dramatically, in the Peter Arnett case. Peter Arnett is an experienced,
respected journalist with a lot of achievements to his credit. He's
hated here precisely for that reason. The same reason Robert Fisk is
hated.

Fisk being British, Arnett is originally from New Zealand.

Fisk is by far the most experienced and respected Middle East
journalist. He's been there forever, he's done excellent work, he knows
the region, he's a terrific reporter. He's despised here. You barely
ever see a word of his. If he's mentioned, he's denounced somehow. The
reason is he's just too independent. He won't be an embedded journalist.
Peter Arnett is condemned because he gave an interview on Iraqi
television. Is anybody condemned for giving an interview on U.S.
television? No, that's wonderful.

The attack on Afghanistan in October 2001 generated a couple of these
interesting terms, and you've commented on them. One was the Operation
Enduring Freedom and the other is "unlawful combatant." Truly an
innovation in international jurisprudence.

It's an innovation since the post-war period. After World War II there
was a relatively new framework of international law established,
including the Geneva Conventions. And they do not permit any such
concept as enemy combatant in the way it's used here. You can have
prisoners of war, but there is no new category. Actually, it's an old
category, pre-World War II, when you were allowed to do just about
anything. But under the Geneva conventions, which were established to
criminalize formally the crimes of the Nazis, this was changed. So
prisoners of war are supposed to have special status. The Bush
administration, with the cooperation of the media and the courts, is
going back to the pre-World War II period, when there was no serious
framework of international law dealing with crimes against humanity and
crimes of war and is declaring not only to carry out aggressive war, but
also to classify people it bombs and captures as some new category who
are entitled to no rights.

They have gone well beyond that. The Administration has now claimed the
right to take people here, including American citizens, to place them in
confinement indefinitely without access to families and lawyers, and to
keep them there with no charges until the president decides that the war
against terror, or whatever he wants to call it, is over. That's unheard
of. And it's been to some extent accepted by the courts. And they're, in
fact, going beyond the new, what's sometimes called PATRIOT 2 Act, which
is so far not ratified. It's inside the Justice Department, but it was
leaked. By now there are a couple of articles by law professors and
others about it in the press. It's astonishing. They're claiming the
right to remove citizenship, the fundamental right, if the Attorney
General infers-they don't have to have any evidence-just infers that the
person is involved somehow in actions that might be harmful to the
United States. You have to go back to totalitarian states to find
anything like this. An enemy combatant is one. The treatment of
people-what's going on in Guantanamo is a gross violation of the most
elementary principles of international humanitarian law since World War
II, that is, since these crimes were formally criminalized in reaction
to the Nazis.

What do you make of British Prime Minister Tony Blair being quoted on
"Nightline" on March 31 saying, "This is not an invasion."

Tony Blair is a good propaganda agent for the United States: He's
articulate, sentences fall together, apparently people like the way he
looks. He's following a position that Britain has taken,
self-consciously, since the end of World War II. During World War II,
Britain recognized-we have plenty of internal documents about it-what
was obvious; Britain had been the world-dominant power and it was not
going to be after World War II-the U.S. was going to be. Britain had to
make a choice: Is it going to be just another country, or is it going to
be what they called a junior partner of the United States? It accepted
the role of junior partner. And that's what it's been since then.
Britain has been kicked in the face over and over again in the most
disgraceful way and they sit there quietly and take it and say, "Okay,
we will be the junior partner. We will bring to what's called the
coalition our experience of centuries of brutalizing and murdering
foreign people. We're good at that." That's the British role. It's
disgraceful.

Often at the talks you give, there is a question that's always asked,
and that is, "What should I do?" This is what you hear in American
audiences.

You're right, it's American audiences. You never hear it in the Third
World.

Why not?

Because when you go to Turkey or Colombia or Brazil or somewhere else,
they don't ask you, "What should I do?" They tell you what they're
doing. It's only in highly privileged cultures that people ask, "What
should I do?" We have every option open to us. None of the problems that
are faced by intellectuals in Turkey or campesinos in Brazil or anything
like that. We can do anything. But what people here are trained to
believe is, we have to have something we can do that will be easy, that
will work very fast, and then we can go back to our ordinary lives. And
it doesn't work that way. You want to do something, you're going to have
to be dedicated, committed, at it day after day. You know exactly what
it is: it's educational programs, it's organizing, it's activism. That's
the way things change. You want something that's going to be a magic key
that will enable you to go back to watching television tomorrow? It's
not there.

You were an active and early dissident in the 1960s opposing U.S.
intervention in Indochina. You have now this perspective of what was
going on then and what is going on now. Describe how dissent has evolved
in the United States.

Actually, there is another article in the New York Times that describes
how the professors are antiwar activists, but the students aren't. Not
like it used to be, when the students were antiwar activists. What the
reporter is talking about is that around 1970-and it's true-by 1970
students were active antiwar protesters. But that's after eight years of
a U.S. war against South Vietnam, which by then had extended to all of
Indochina, which had practically wiped the place out. In the early years
of the war-it was announced in 1962-U.S. planes are bombing South
Vietnam, napalm was authorized, chemical warfare to destroy food crops,
and programs to drive millions of people into "strategic hamlets," which
are essentially concentration camps. All public. No protest. Impossible
to get anybody to talk about it. For years, even in a place like Boston,
a liberal city, you couldn't have public meetings against the war
because they would be broken up by students, with the support of the
media. You would have to have hundreds of state police around to allow
the speakers like me to escape unscathed. The protests came after years
and years of war. By then, hundreds of thousands of people had been
killed, much of Vietnam had been destroyed. Then you started getting
protests.

But all of that is wiped out of history, because it tells too much of
the truth. It involved years and years of hard work of plenty of people,
mostly young, which finally ended up getting a protest movement. Now
it's far beyond that. But the New York Times reporter can't understand
that. I'm sure the reporter is being very honest. The reporter is saying
exactly what I think she was taught-that there was a huge antiwar
movement because the actual history has to be wiped out of people's
consciousness. You can't learn that dedicated, committed effort can
bring about significant changes of consciousness and understanding.
That's a very dangerous thought to allow people to have.




----------------------------------
David Barsamian founder and director of Alternative Radio. He is the
author of  Decline & Fall of Public Broadcasting as well as a number of
books, such as Propaganda & the Public Mind with Noam Chomsky,
Confronting Empire with Eqbal Ahmad and Culture & Resistance with Edward
Said. He is a regular contributor to Z, the Progressive, and other


This message has been brought to you by ZNet (http://www.zmag.org). Visit 
our site for subscription options.




From anny.ballardini  Sun Jul 20 12:18:49 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:18:49 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030720104947.045f0e28@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <00e301c34eda$9a737200$2e607550@anny>

...if you think they want to increase mine...
and you have no idea of how many naked blond ladies I have seen in the last
months.

sorry, I am noticing you are on the serious line now Gabriel,
care, anny

From: "Gabriel Gudding" <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; "new-poetry"

> It is not Elijah Butler who is after my subscription or acquiescence to
his
> wares or the wiring of my software -- but several companies who want to
> increase the size of my penis or allow it to stand more rampantly, stiff
as
> the tractor's tire, via this or that new Viagra. I do not need my penis
> size increased, thank you, being satisfied with it, and am daily deluged
by
> those who want to increase my insurance, decrease my debt, allow me to see
> the firmest nipples of the most petite of Asian womens. If Elijah Butler
> rings his bell in my inboxes, I will send along your regards, Jim. gg
>
> At 08:47 AM 7/20/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
> >One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
> >Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
> >and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
> >all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
> >not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect.
> >Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
> >it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
> >subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
> >these things.
> >
> >- Jim
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From jvcervantes  Sun Jul 20 14:35:29 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:35:29 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030720104947.045f0e28@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F1AE0F0.9BA4DC68@earthlink.net>

My, my.  The Elijah Butlers I found would disapprove.  I Googled "Elijah
Butler" and found pages of Butler lineage.  The first E.B. mentioned was
born of  Simeon Butler and Hannah Cheney (uh oh!) May 16, 1713.  That
Elijah Butler married one Thankful Smith (honest), who outlived him in
Duke, MA.  Their offspring did the westward ho thing and more Elijahs
and Simeons can be tracked to Illinois, thence Oregon.

What are Sundays for but tracing the lives of others?  Could you say the
same for the firmest nipples of most petite of Asian womens?  Probably. 

- Jim

Gabriel Gudding wrote:
> 
> It is not Elijah Butler who is after my subscription or acquiescence to his
> wares or the wiring of my software -- but several companies who want to
> increase the size of my penis or allow it to stand more rampantly, stiff as
> the tractor's tire, via this or that new Viagra. I do not need my penis
> size increased, thank you, being satisfied with it, and am daily deluged by
> those who want to increase my insurance, decrease my debt, allow me to see
> the firmest nipples of the most petite of Asian womens. If Elijah Butler
> rings his bell in my inboxes, I will send along your regards, Jim. gg
> 
> At 08:47 AM 7/20/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
> >One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
> >Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
> >and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
> >all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
> >not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect.
> >Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
> >it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
> >subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
> >these things.
> >
> >- Jim
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From FanwoodJEL  Sun Jul 20 14:40:46 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:40:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
Message-ID: <23.329571ed.2c4c3c2e@aol.com>

Some spy you'd make. Elijah Butler is really Reltu B. Hajile, Third in 
Command for Burying WMD. Apparently, one of the biological agents may double as a 
sort of generic Viagra. He's recruiting volunteers. Protestations to the 
contrary notwithstanding, I notice Gudding has already signed on, John Hancock 
rampant as a tractor tire.   

JL

In a message dated 7/20/2003 11:48:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:

> One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
> Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
> and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
> all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
> not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect. 
> Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
> it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
> subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
> these things.
> 
> - Jim
> 

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From CobbCoStudioArts  Sun Jul 20 18:08:17 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:08:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
Message-ID: <20030720220817.508A648F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From jvcervantes  Sun Jul 20 19:31:01 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 16:31:01 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
References: <23.329571ed.2c4c3c2e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F1B2634.38DA7E78@earthlink.net>

Dear Mr. JEL Fanwood:  By replying to this message, you have indicated
an interest in our shovels and other products.  Please send us the size
of the hole you want to dig (metric system) and we will send you an
estimate.  Please note prices USA are different, based on latest
photographic intelligence.  That John Hancock has a really BIG signature!

Also please thank Mr. Gudding, one of our best customers.  He speaks
bigly of you.

Sincerely,

Soft-Hands-Hajile


> Some spy you'd make. Elijah Butler is really Reltu B. Hajile, Third in Command for Burying > WMD. Apparently, one of the biological
> agents may double as a sort of generic Viagra. He's recruiting volunteers. Protestations to > the contrary notwithstanding, I notice Gudding
> has already signed on, John Hancock rampant as a tractor tire.   
>
> JL

> In a message dated 7/20/2003 11:48:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,  jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:
>>
>>        One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line,
"You Were
>>        Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his
biblical name
>>        and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
>>       all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler. 
Also, I have
>>       not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more
suspect. 
>>        Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If
he has,
>>        it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
>>        subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's
good to know
>>        these things.
>>
>>        - Jim



From FanwoodJEL  Sun Jul 20 20:34:22 2003
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:34:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmative e-mail
Message-ID: <23.329752da.2c4c8f0e@aol.com>

Dear Preferred Provider of Exotic Goods and Services,

Here in the good ol' US of A, our leadership down by the Swamp District has 
already dug itself a mighty big bunker-buster of a holeabobble. They've asked 
me, though, to ask for your help in, you know, just between us, covering it all 
up. Shhhhh. So please send instructions in American because nobody over here 
in the -- you should pardon the expression -- Intelligence Community 
understands any of those funny languages, though the leader of the -- you should also 
pardon this expression -- free world -- has finally taken a little trip outside 
of North America and, well, he liked it very much. Except for the food. And 
the weird accents. Oh . . . price is no object. Over here, we cut taxes AND 
spend more. Watch closely. The hand never leaves the wrist!

JL


In a message dated 7/20/2003 7:32:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:

> Dear Mr. JEL Fanwood:  By replying to this message, you have indicated
> an interest in our shovels and other products.  Please send us the size
> of the hole you want to dig (metric system) and we will send you an
> estimate.  Please note prices USA are different, based on latest
> photographic intelligence.  That John Hancock has a really BIG signature!
> 
> Also please thank Mr. Gudding, one of our best customers.  He speaks
> bigly of you.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Soft-Hands-Hajile
> 

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From jvcervantes  Sun Jul 20 21:27:13 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:27:13 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] affirmation never ends!
Message-ID: <3F1B4170.9425ED44@earthlink.net>

I now have ANOTHER "You Are Approved" message!!!  My cups runneth over. 
This time from one Maritza Wilkerson, and I opened her message, since
she is apparently a women.  Alas, she is capitalistic whore, not like
Elijah Butler who might not have asked for PIN number and GPS coordinates.

I have learned lesson here.  Such messages are like fortune cookie, best
left unopened.

- Jim

p.s. - I am not an ESL instructor.

p.p.s - I thought Maritza was responding to personals ad.



From FINDINGTHEWORD  Tue Jul 15 14:08:24 2003
From: FINDINGTHEWORD (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:08:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] POETS of 9for9:  Jennifer Coleman, Shanna Compton, Maria Damon, Tom Devaney, Brett Evans, Greg Fuchs, Nada Gordon, Daniel Nester, David Trinidad
Message-ID: <1eb.d196d97.2c459d18@aol.com>

9for9
---------
set 2 of 9

Jennifer Coleman
Shanna Compton
Maria Damon
Tom Devaney
Brett Evans
Greg Fuchs
Nada Gordon
Daniel Nester
David Trinidad


copyright ? 2003
to all participating
poets upon publication


questions by
CAConrad


published by
Mooncalf Press
POBox 22521
Philadelphia, PA 19110
MooncalfPress at hotmail.com


9for9 is a collection of 9 questions for 9 poets and their answers. This is 
the 2nd set of 9 sets. Some of the questions came from dreams, others from 
waking ideas. The project was conducted through e-mail, questions arriving 
in Inboxes once a week, usually on friday. 


If you wish to communicate with any of the poets included, please feel free 
to send correspondence to the e-mail address CAConrad13 at aol.com, with the 
subject line "9for9 correspondence". I promise to forward your message to 
the poet you wish to connect with.


Thank you,
CAConrad
---------

click here for the BRAND NEW <A HREF="http://poets9for9.blogspot.com/">
http://poets9for9.blogspot.com/</A>

the next 9for9 will be a LIVE panel at the Philly Sound Weekend,
beginning at 10:30 a.m. on August 9th <A 
HREF="http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/phillysoundwknd.html">http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/phillysoundwknd.html
</A>

poets for the LIVE 9for9 will include:
Jim Berhle
Edmund Berrigan
Jim Cory
hassen
Sofia Memon
Daniel Abdal-Hayy Moore
Deborah Richards
Molly Russakoff
Prageeta Sharma




From reneea  Wed Jul 16 18:06:21 2003
From: reneea (Renee Ashley)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 18:06:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser
References: <000f01c34bd7$54bdc2c0$73391c40@Emily>
Message-ID: <004e01c34be6$7d88bb60$da66fea9@Barnette>

also Winter at the Caspian Sea by Stephen Dunn and Lawrence Raab.
Renee
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 4:17 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Harrison Kooser


> David Graham writes:
> 
> >I can't offhand think of any comparable project in poetry.  Can anyone?
> 
> Yup.  Lots.  Joshua Beckman and Matt Rohrer's "Nice Hat. Thanks." Comes
> to mind.
> 
> Then, in a slightly different but far more interesting vein, there's
> Araki Yasusada's "Doubled Flowering."
> 
> Tony
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From gmguddi  Mon Jul 21 11:07:42 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:07:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] disgusting commercial spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030720104947.045f0e28@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <3F1AB9A1.E440328@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030721100549.01329d40@mail.ilstu.edu>

Anyway, all kidding aside, it is very difficult to be the constant receptor 
of spam about all manner of disgusting things. I don't like it. I get spam 
at an old email account forwarded to me about all sorts of things having to 
do with all sorts of disgusting things, some of the below mentioned items 
and more that I'd ratehr not mention.

At 10:55 AM 7/20/2003 -0500, Gabriel Gudding wrote:
>It is not Elijah Butler who is after my subscription or acquiescence to 
>his wares or the wiring of my software -- but several companies who want 
>to increase the size of my penis or allow it to stand more rampantly, 
>stiff as the tractor's tire, via this or that new Viagra. I do not need my 
>penis size increased, thank you, being satisfied with it, and am daily 
>deluged by those who want to increase my insurance, decrease my debt, 
>allow me to see the firmest nipples of the most petite of Asian womens. If 
>Elijah Butler rings his bell in my inboxes, I will send along your 
>regards, Jim. gg
>
>At 08:47 AM 7/20/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
>>One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
>>Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
>>and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
>>all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
>>not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect.
>>Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
>>it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
>>subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
>>these things.
>>
>>- Jim
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From luap  Mon Jul 21 11:17:00 2003
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:17:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] disgusting commercial spam
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030721100549.01329d40@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307211016220.22072-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

What I hate is the spam that asks if I get spam and promises to stop spam
from coming to me.

Also, i'm starting to get foreign spam - korean, i think.

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/


e

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Gabriel Gudding wrote:

> Anyway, all kidding aside, it is very difficult to be the constant receptor 
> of spam about all manner of disgusting things. I don't like it. I get spam 
> at an old email account forwarded to me about all sorts of things having to 
> do with all sorts of disgusting things, some of the below mentioned items 
> and more that I'd ratehr not mention.
> 
> At 10:55 AM 7/20/2003 -0500, Gabriel Gudding wrote:
> >It is not Elijah Butler who is after my subscription or acquiescence to 
> >his wares or the wiring of my software -- but several companies who want 
> >to increase the size of my penis or allow it to stand more rampantly, 
> >stiff as the tractor's tire, via this or that new Viagra. I do not need my 
> >penis size increased, thank you, being satisfied with it, and am daily 
> >deluged by those who want to increase my insurance, decrease my debt, 
> >allow me to see the firmest nipples of the most petite of Asian womens. If 
> >Elijah Butler rings his bell in my inboxes, I will send along your 
> >regards, Jim. gg
> >
> >At 08:47 AM 7/20/2003 -0700, James Cervantes wrote:
> >>One Elijah Butler sent me an e-mail with the subject line, "You Were
> >>Approved."  I don't know Elijah Butler - though I like his biblical name
> >>and think he belongs in Hardy - so I didn't open the message.  After
> >>all, it could be the devil masquerading as Elijah Butler.  Also, I have
> >>not sought approval lately, so that made the message even more suspect.
> >>Please let me know if Elijah Butler has also approved you.  If he has,
> >>it will put a damper on the unopened message with its affirmative
> >>subject line, which I hope was meant only for me, but it's good to know
> >>these things.
> >>
> >>- Jim
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>New-Poetry mailing list
> >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From JforJames  Mon Jul 21 17:38:21 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:38:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] HarperPoetry: The Standing Wave by Gabriel Spera
Message-ID: <113.268e06a8.2c4db74d@aol.com>

Subj:    HarperPoetry: The Standing Wave by Gabriel Spera
Date:   7/21/03 5:09:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   newsletters at harpercollins.com

This newsletter features a poem by Gabriel Spera from his debut
collection of poetry, The Standing Wave. 

The Standing Wave was selected by esteemed poet and editor, Dave Smith,
for The National Poetry Series. Dave Smith writes "This poet is a new
and exciting voice, diverse in subjects and rich in perspectives, yet
withal fully mature, experienced in both the world and the poem?s ways
of enacting. The Standing Wave reveals a keen intelligence whose supple
engagement with crisis and joy alike evokes total confidence from the
first line to the last. I?ll be pleased to lean on friends to take up
this wonderful collection for I think it promises and delivers what we
want from poetry, the sound of that human voice which compels total
attention."

The featured poem, "In A Field Outside The Town," was selected by Rita
Dove for Best American Poetry 2000 anthology. 

This week, as a newsletter-subscriber, you are automatically entered to
win a copy of the Standing Wave by Gabriel Spera.


Thanks for reading and please
<http:\\www.harpercollins.com\services\forwardtofriend\forward_friend.as
p?newsletterid=478>  forward this newsletter to a friend. 

    
..  

In a Field Outside the Town 

Three days later, Suljic was finally given a drink
of water and marched with a dozen other men
onto a small livery truck, one of two, fenced
along each side by wooden planks,

the back left open to give a clear shot
to the automatic weapon poking out the window
of the red sedan that followed, the squat nose
trained on them, ridiculously, as if they?d any thought

of hopping off a moving truck. Suljic peered
vacantly through the slats. He?d missed the yellow flowers
of Spring and by now saw a landscape taken over
by Summer, the grasses closing behind them as they veered

from the road and lurched across cow paths. They drove
to the center of a wide field and stopped. Old sweat,
without the breeze of movement, prickled in the heat.
A metal smell drifted, an untended apple grove

baked on a hill, and the weeds droned, motory with bees.
But Suljic noticed none of these, fixed instead
on the gaps in the field where bodies, all dead,
matted down the wild carrot and chicory, their khakis

splotched darkly, like a fawn?s dappled haunches
obscuring them. The men clambered down into the tall grass
and lined up at gunpoint. Suljic was sure the last
good thing he?d ever see would be the apple branches

drooping with fruit, but the man beside him grabbed
his hand, and looked him in the face, as if
Suljic, just a bricklayer, had any assurances to give.
He squeezed the hand back, hard, and felt a scab

crossing the man?s knuckles. He saw, too, a thin scar
worrying the arch of his left eyebrow, much older,
perhaps from a fall as a child from a ladder
picking fruit. His hand was like a clump of mortar,

and three nights without sleep had webbed his eyes red.
And Suljic suddenly stuttered to ask his name,
what town was he from, his job?anything?but there came
the crackle, like sometimes thunder, undecided

whether to begin, that starts, stalls, then trips
over itself, the sound crinkling from one
end of the sky to the other. The sound took possession
of his face until it, too, crinkled, his grip

pulsed, and he fell forward. Suljic winced
in the tackle of bodies, and splayed down in the dirt
flattening himself like a beetle, not hurt
in any new way, not yet convinced

he wasn?t dead and didn?t feel it. He heard the click
of fresh clips sliding into place, and shut
his eyes lightly, sure someone had seen he wasn?t shot
and would come finish it. But no one came. Another truck

rolled up. The men climbed down, and lined up, docilely.
He recognized, solely by rhythm, a prayer, cut off
by the crackle, the hush of crickets, the soft
whump of bodies folding at the knees

and knocked by bullets shoulder first
into the grass. No one yelled. No one tried to run.
Another truck, another group, falling like a succession
of bricks sliding off a hod. Suljic finally pissed

where he lay, and blended in all the better
with the others. The noise stopped, and he cracked
his eyes enough to see, across the backs
like bleeding hills, a man strolling along the scatter

of bodies with a pistol, putting a slug
into the skull of anyone that still twitched
or mumbled. Then came the snort and low-pitched
rumble of diesel engines as two backhoes dug

a trench along the margin of all the collapsed
bodies. Impossibly, the crackling started anew,
and when darkness finally settled, the squads continued
in what light the backhoes? headlights threw. Perhaps

the shooting was over long before the sound
left him, the crackle to his eardrums
was like the rolling of a boat to his limbs
echoing long after he?d reached dry ground.

The soldiers left. Still he didn?t move, but eased
his eyes full open. The moon above the orchard
was shrinking higher, its light glossing the awkward
pale forms that stubbled the dry weeds,

glinting off teeth and eyes. He scuttled from beneath
the arms and legs flopped sleepingly over
his own, as though by drunkards or lovers,
and rose like a foal to his numb feet,

seeing throughout the field no man not touched
by three dead others. He stood for a moment, trying
to guess, even roughly, their number, multiplying
bodies per square yard, but the math was too much,

the count too huge. He stared at the faces beside him
in the grass, like a man leaving something he knew
he would someday have to return to,
looking for the landmarks that would guide him?

the crooked teeth, the welted cheek, the pale eyes eclipsed
by half-shut lids, lolling upward, inward, swollen
as though with weeping, blood from an unseen hole
glistering down a chin line, crusting on lips.

How could he explain his life, what could he say
to those who weren?t here to see, to the mothers and wives
who?d swear for years their men were still alive,
somewhere, the bodies never found, bulldozed into clay?

would he tell them how he tiptoed, unable to avoid
stepping on hands and ankles, or how the tears
like a secret he?d harbored through three years
of siege shook loose, and how he let them, no longer afraid

of being found out and cut down by gunfire,
or how he ran anyway, when he reached the open, quick
as his bum leg would let him, without a look
back at the faces turned like gourds in the dark mire.



.......................................................................
.................................................. 

    ...  ..  



 <http://www.harpercollins.com/catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060541822>  

OTHER TITLES IN THE NATIONAL POETRY SERIES: 

 <http://www.harpercollins.com/catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060082534> 
Edgewater
by Ruth L. Schwartz
Paperback 


 <http://www.harpercollins.com/catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060935685> 
Tremolo
by Spencer Short 
Paperback 

    ... 
    
..   
 

    ...  

GABRIEL SPERA


Gabriel Spera?s poems have appeared in Chicago Review, Crazyhorse,
Doubletake, Epoch, Folio, Greensboro Review, Laurel Review, Michigan
Quarterly Review, New England Review, Ontario Review, Poetry, Prairie
Schooner, and Southern Review. His work also appears in the anthologies
The Best American Poetry 2000, And We the Creatures, and The POETRY
Anthology, 1912-2002 as well as the textbook Literature and the Writing
Process, 5th/6 th eds. He grew up in New Jersey, and was educated at
Cornell University and the University of North Carolina, Greensboro. He
lives in Los Angeles, where he works as a technical writer for an
aerospace research group. 

     ...     .   




From bobgrumman  Mon Jul 21 21:18:28 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 21:18:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] HarperPoetry: The Standing Wave by Gabriel Spera
References: <113.268e06a8.2c4db74d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <013801c34fef$288e5360$221dfea9@j1c1k6>

Nothing like a fresh subject, especially done with all the latest poetic
moves.

--Bob G.




From paul.lake  Tue Jul 22 10:08:26 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 09:08:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] HarperPoetry: The Standing Wave by Gabriel Spera
In-Reply-To: <013801c34fef$288e5360$221dfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <BB42AF8A.5174%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I have to agree with Bob here. The story in the poem was a familiar one, and
the verse was cleanly written prose, but that's about all, minus a few
unimaginative line breaks.

Paul Lake



on 7/21/03 8:18 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote:

> Nothing like a fresh subject, especially done with all the latest poetic
> moves.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From paul  Tue Jul 22 14:45:40 2003
From: paul (Paul C. Howell)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 14:45:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1613 - 3 msgs
In-Reply-To: <200307221601.h6MG1VST015809@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030722144503.04769c38@mail.tbhinc.com>

At 12:01 PM 7/22/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>esteemed poet and editor, Dave Smith


What happened to the spam catcher?

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From luap  Tue Jul 22 17:12:38 2003
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 16:12:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1613 - 3 msgs
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030722144503.04769c38@mail.tbhinc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307221612020.21452-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

He's locked up in Gitmo. May be released in 10 to 12 years, though. Until
then, we must give up some luxuries for 'safety'...

Yeah, that's it ...

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/


e

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Paul C. Howell wrote:

> At 12:01 PM 7/22/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >esteemed poet and editor, Dave Smith
> 
> 
> What happened to the spam catcher?
> 
> 




From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 22 21:32:16 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 18:32:16 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hold Presses!
Message-ID: <3F1DE59F.76852639@earthlink.net>

Hold Presses!
Alt-Al Jazeera, 2:00 GMT, 22-7-03
Exclusive from our mule, Bossy al Hayeeda, at the Bush Ranch, Crawford,
Texas:  

Revelation in the hay bales: Ousay and Ouday toasted George Bush in a
clandestine meeting for his coup in diverting the attention of the
American public and saving their lives.  Bush, modest as ever, suggested
a second toast to Kobi Bryant. 

Meanwhile, body-doubles for Ousay and Ouday were carted out of a safe
house in Mosul and flown by Balckhawk helicopter to a sub-sub-basement
dug by bunker-busters in a Baghdad palace.

The Crawford Ranch barn, off limits to other reporters, was a scene for
many toasts this afternoon, including one to Jessica Lynch, car accident
victim-cum-hero, and what's-his-name who allegedly murdered
what's-his-name from Baylor.  "We must keep our eyes on the moment,"
said a jubilant Bush.

American Idol. Bush mentioned that.

"We love Libera," Bush said, "but we have to take care of our people. 
Their neighbors can help them."

"We love American democracy," said Ousay and Ouday, "Long live the
copulation . . "

"That's 'coalition'," Bush corrected gently. "If I could sing, I'd go on
American Idol."



From jvcervantes  Wed Jul 23 09:16:54 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 06:16:54 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "In defense of politicians . . . "
Message-ID: <3F1E8AC5.5BA64CB0@earthlink.net>

This was in my mailbox the other day and I thought I'd share it.  - Jim

"In defense of politicians, they are necessarily the products of a
society.  If it is a society that thinks only of money and power,
without any concern for moral values, we should not be surprised if
politicians are corrupt, and should not therefore consider that the
responsibility for such a situation lies entirely with them." -- His
Holiness the Dalai Lama



From mmagee  Wed Jul 23 10:06:31 2003
From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:06:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] M.A.D. at 90 plus photos
In-Reply-To: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1058969191.3f1e9667c5d42@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

Howdy folks,

Just letting you know that my serial work "My Angie Dickinson" now stands at 90 
poems - and that my mystery webmeister has, to my surprise and delight, added 
dozens of new photos (almost one to a poem), stranger by the minute.

http://myangiedickinson.blogspot.com

-m.



From mmagee  Wed Jul 23 15:14:00 2003
From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:14:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Finally! COMBO 12: A VERY SPECIAL ISSUE
In-Reply-To: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1058987640.3f1ede787aea6@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

IT'S HERE!!! THE VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY SPECIAL SPECIAL SPECIAL SPECIAL ISSUE 
OF COMBO --- COMBO 12: A VERY SPECIAL ISSUE!!!

WHY IS IT SO SPECIAL???

KATIE DEGENTESH: SPECIAL
K. SILEM MOHAMMAD: SPECIAL
GARY SULLIVAN: SPECIAL PERSON
SHARON MESMER: SPECIAL
MITCH HIGHFILL: VERY SPECIAL
DAVID LARSEN: SPECIAL
MICHAEL MAGEE: ESPECIALLY SPECIAL
MARIA DAMON: XTRA SPECIAL
JORDAN DAVIS: SPECIAL
DANIEL BOUCHARD: REALLY, REALLY SPECIAL
RODNEY KOENEKE: TOTALLY SPECIAL
NADA GORDAN: SPECIAL
DREW GARDNER: SPECIAL

SEE???

COMBO 12 is 60 pages, side-stapled with original artwork of deer on glossy 
cardstock cover.

AT $10/4-issue subscription IT'S THE CHEAPEST, GREATEST POETRY MAG IN THE WHOLE 
WORLD!!!

and don't forget our LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTION at $50.00 (includes all future 
issues as well as all available back issues).

Single copies are now $4.00

CASH OR CHECK TO: Michael Magee, 31 Perrin Ave., Pawtucket, RI 02861
NEW EMAIL: combo1 at cox.net
LOOK FOR OUR NEW AND IMPROVED WEB DESIGN SOON AT: www.combopoetry.com

That is all.

-m.



From DICK  Wed Jul 23 15:23:23 2003
From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 03 15:23:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Standing Wave"
Message-ID: <200307231927.h6NJRnYo071084@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com>

I'm with Bob G. and Paul Lake on this one.  The poem is
quite good prose, I think, the kind of reportage I'd
expect in, say, the NYer (I mean this as a compliment),
but I couldn't find any reason for the line breaks, any
decipherable meter, any intriguing metaphor - beyond what
might appear in good prose - any of the characteristics
of poetry.

I like quite a lot of Dave Smith's poetry, but his
editorial choices...?

Richard



From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 24 14:19:19 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:19:19 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] post, not publication: "Theoretically"
Message-ID: <3F202326.43DCFBA3@earthlink.net>

Theoretically


Still haunted by an attachment to "identity"? Unaware of any theoretical
developments  in language after 1913, the year of the lovely "Black
Square" by Malevich?

Perhaps this is why it took you years to finally say "Uncle Clyde" and
mean it. Only then did you realize "Uncle Clyde" was attached to your
identity.  What changed was the total lack of words or names for his
haunting, his yearning to give you a plasmatic slap on the face and say,
"Complete me!  Break the friggin milk bottles and burn those musty papers!"

The problem was you didn't want to go back to 1913 for the name, and
instead floundered in the late 70s.  Had you been aware, you would have
noticed that "Clyde" and "Uncle" had been in use all along, though not
timeless. On the streets and in the playgrounds, "Uncle" was as common
as a cigarette butt, "Clyde" somewhat problematic as you'd never been on
a farm, nor met anyone who would  admit to the name.

Now you're free and can theoretically go about your business. 
What's-his-name is gone and all you can see is a pair of overalls and
some long underwear on a clothesline wherever they still have real
clotheslines and a dozen or so clothespins waiting.


- Jim


* The first two sentences closely but loosely paraphrase those of Kazim
Ali in a post to the Poetics list Wed, 23 Jul 2003.



From JforJames  Thu Jul 24 20:45:31 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:45:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Nude vs. Reading Barefoot
Message-ID: <122.24c71ee9.2c51d7ab@aol.com>

Date:   7/23/03 4:30:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   webmaster at milkweed.org (Milkweed Webmaster)
Sender: everse-owner at milkweed.org


RETURN OF THE SENSUOUS READER 

Reading Nude vs. Reading Barefoot 

Unless you are especially comfortable 
with your body, reading in the nude is likely
to be more of a distraction than an enhancement. 

A better compromise that still lends an air of ease
and intimacy is reading barefoot. Just imagine
walking barefoot over the words you're reading.
Note: this is especially pleasurable to do in public. 


Elaine Equi

--------------------------
copyright (c) 2003 Elaine Equi. From "The Cloud of Knowable Things," 
published by Coffee House Press ( http://www.coffeehousepress.org/ )
 --------------------------

E-verse is a free service presented by Milkweed Editions 
(http://www.milkweed.org). 
For more information or to unsubscribe, please e-mail us at 
webmaster at milkweed.org. 

Sign up a friend for e-verse at http://www.milkweed.org/3_1.html

Enjoy your week! 



From JforJames  Thu Jul 24 20:57:37 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:57:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] so quoth he a Tagore quote
Message-ID: <8f.2ffaa16b.2c51da81@aol.com>

"When a reader feels particularly interested in 
some passage of a book, he underlines it.  Although
the words are not his own, he feels a kind of proprietary
right to them by the intensity of his realisation of their
meaning. And he wishes to mark them out for all times.
That is kind of underlining or marking out may be called
Art."
Rabindranath Tagore, "Random Discourse" (66),
from_Rabindranath Tagore: On Art and Aesthetics_



From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 24 21:13:40 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:13:40 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] so quoth he a Tagore quote
References: <8f.2ffaa16b.2c51da81@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3F208444.DDC4D728@earthlink.net>

Lovely project:  Words I Have Underlined.  Anyone ever go back through
their books and wonder why this or that was underlined?  I usually make
notes in the margins, but the most fascinating are those underlined
words without corresponding notes.  On the other hand, maybe it's just age.

- Jim

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> "When a reader feels particularly interested in
> some passage of a book, he underlines it.  Although
> the words are not his own, he feels a kind of proprietary
> right to them by the intensity of his realisation of their
> meaning. And he wishes to mark them out for all times.
> That is kind of underlining or marking out may be called
> Art."
> Rabindranath Tagore, "Random Discourse" (66),
> from_Rabindranath Tagore: On Art and Aesthetics_
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames  Thu Jul 24 22:53:39 2003
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:53:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] so quoth he a Tagore quote
Message-ID: <11.160629c0.2c51f5b3@aol.com>

In a message dated 7/24/03 9:14:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:

> "When a reader feels particularly interested in
>  some passage of a book, he underlines it.  Although
>  the words are not his own, he feels a kind of proprietary
>  right to them by the intensity of his realisation of their
>  meaning. And he wishes to mark them out for all times.
>  That kind of underlining or marking out may be called
>  Art."
>  Rabindranath Tagore, "Random Discourse" (66),
>  from_Rabindranath Tagore: On Art and Aesthetics_

oops, this is fixed now...my typo made it a misquote.



From luap  Thu Jul 24 23:22:28 2003
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:22:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] so quoth he a Tagore quote
In-Reply-To: <3F208444.DDC4D728@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307242221030.11168-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

Yes. A lot of Miller and Nin. Sometimes the connections are still there.
Sometimes not.

That would make an interesting web project. People submitting 'snippets'
of other works - a way to virtually underline - and those collections are
put into a whole in some fashion.

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/


On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, James Cervantes wrote:

> Lovely project:  Words I Have Underlined.  Anyone ever go back through
> their books and wonder why this or that was underlined?  I usually make
> notes in the margins, but the most fascinating are those underlined
> words without corresponding notes.  On the other hand, maybe it's just age.
> 
> - Jim
> 
> JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > "When a reader feels particularly interested in
> > some passage of a book, he underlines it.  Although
> > the words are not his own, he feels a kind of proprietary
> > right to them by the intensity of his realisation of their
> > meaning. And he wishes to mark them out for all times.
> > That is kind of underlining or marking out may be called
> > Art."
> > Rabindranath Tagore, "Random Discourse" (66),
> > from_Rabindranath Tagore: On Art and Aesthetics_
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Jul 25 00:20:25 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:20:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] so quoth he a Tagore quote
Message-ID: <20030725042025.5BDC8CF48@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From jvcervantes  Fri Jul 25 08:18:59 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 05:18:59 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] so quoth he a Tagore quote
References: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10307242221030.11168-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <3F212033.404C857@earthlink.net>

Maybe someone on this list is up to mounting a site for that?  Or maybe
we could simply open up a blog that everyone could access and add to? 
Or maybe someone could add it to their existing blog?  Whatever, but no
damn Yahoo! website.

- Jim

"K. Paul Mallasch" wrote:
> 
> Yes. A lot of Miller and Nin. Sometimes the connections are still there.
> Sometimes not.
> 
> That would make an interesting web project. People submitting 'snippets'
> of other works - a way to virtually underline - and those collections are
> put into a whole in some fashion.
> 
> -kpaul
> mallasch.com/mug/
> 
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, James Cervantes wrote:
> 
> > Lovely project:  Words I Have Underlined.  Anyone ever go back through
> > their books and wonder why this or that was underlined?  I usually make
> > notes in the margins, but the most fascinating are those underlined
> > words without corresponding notes.  On the other hand, maybe it's just age.
> >
> > - Jim
> >
> > JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > "When a reader feels particularly interested in
> > > some passage of a book, he underlines it.  Although
> > > the words are not his own, he feels a kind of proprietary
> > > right to them by the intensity of his realisation of their
> > > meaning. And he wishes to mark them out for all times.
> > > That is kind of underlining or marking out may be called
> > > Art."
> > > Rabindranath Tagore, "Random Discourse" (66),
> > > from_Rabindranath Tagore: On Art and Aesthetics_
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From marcus  Fri Jul 25 09:13:08 2003
From: marcus (marcus at designerglass.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:13:08 GMT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Nude vs. Reading Barefoot
Message-ID: <200307251301.h6PD1RST001372@wiz.cath.vt.edu>

> RETURN OF THE SENSUOUS READER 
> Elaine Equi
> Reading Nude vs. Reading Barefoot 
> Unless you are especially comfortable 
> with your body, reading in the nude is likely
> to be more of a distraction than an enhancement. 
> A better compromise that still lends an air of ease
> and intimacy is reading barefoot. Just imagine
> walking barefoot over the words you're reading.
> Note: this is especially pleasurable to do in public. 

The Naked and the Nude
Robert Graves

For me, the naked and the nude 
(By lexicographers construed 
As synonyms that should express 
The same deficiency of dress 
Or shelter) stand as wide apart 
As love from lies, or truth from art. 

Lovers without reproach will gaze 
On bodies naked and ablaze; 
The Hippocratic eye will see 
In nakedness, anatomy; 
And naked shines the Goddess when 
She mounts her lion among men. 

The nude are bold, the nude are sly 
To hold each treasonable eye. 
While draping by a showman's trick 
Their dishabille in rhetoric, 
They grin a mock-religious grin 
Of scorn at those of naked skin. 

The naked, therefore, who compete 
Against the nude may know defeat; 
Yet when they both together tread 
The briary pastures of the dead, 
By Gorgons with long whips pursued, 
How naked go the sometime nude!







From mmagee  Fri Jul 25 19:06:50 2003
From: mmagee (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 19:06:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] COMBO WEBSITE: NOW 25% MORE SPECIAL!
In-Reply-To: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
References: <109.231d0cb1.2be2f663@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1059174410.3f21b80a8ef9a@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>

The new COMBO website is up:

http://www.combopoetry.com

And don't forget about COMBO 12 and that new subscription you're planning to 
order!

-m.



From FINDINGTHEWORD  Sun Jul 27 18:32:24 2003
From: FINDINGTHEWORD (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:32:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] PHILLY SOUND: =?ISO-8859-1?B?oE5ldyBQb2V0cnkgV2Vla2VuZCAqICogKiAqICogKiAqICogKiAqICogKiAq?=
Message-ID: <1EAEC33A.470EA59C.20CA8F88@aol.com>


http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/phillysoundwknd.html


come on
take it
all in





From FINDINGTHEWORD  Sun Jul 27 18:35:59 2003
From: FINDINGTHEWORD (FINDINGTHEWORD at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2003 18:35:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] come hear LAURA SMITH read before she moves!
Message-ID: <3B2985FF.056304B4.20CA8F88@aol.com>

Laura has three readings coming up before she moves,
check out the going away readings webpage:

http://hometown.aol.com/caconrad9/myhomepage/xfiles.html







From halvard  Mon Jul 28 09:44:59 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:44:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP: Bob Hope (1903-2003)
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEDBHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

This from the last section ("Hope: An Elegy") from "The Bob Hope Poem"
in Campbell McGrath's *Spring Comes to Chicago* [Ecco Press, 1996].

Would you believe it, if I told you, that even now, as I write these lines, as I
	dance this little caffeine-buzz shuffle,
word comes over the radio that Bob Hope has passed over to the great
	beyond, gone to fetch his eternal reward,
retired at last to vaudeville Valhalla, that heavenly Pro-Am, that never-
	ending celebrity roast in the sky?

What matter if it's true, if it is inevitable?
If not today, tomorrow; if not tomorrow, yesterday.
Who among us can predict the future?

For that matter, who can predict the past,
except to say that this, too, shall surely pass,
that death is nothing if not absolute?

Already I see his picture
on the cover 
of *People* magazine,

young and beautiful Bob, smiling his smile of purest mastery, leering the
	leer of an era untroubled by doubt or uncertainty.

Bob agog with Bing on the golf course, Bob playing kissy with second-
	string starlets.
Bob pushing Pepsodent, Bob shopping Oscars, Bob selling war bonds with
	Eleanor Roosevelt.
Bob in the jungles of Guadalcanal, Bob raising the flag on Iwo Jima, Bob as
	Coyote, Bob as Loki, Bob in the ashes of Nagasaki.
Bob as cook, Bob as Darwin, Bob as Columbus, Bob as Buzz Aldrin.
	the Museum of American History, Bob teeing off in the Sea of Serenity.
Bob the body and Bob the shadow, Bob the echo and Bob the call.
Bob the imperial envoy of the American System, Bob the corporate
	janissary, Bob the mad jester of cultural hegemony.

THANKS FOR THE MEMORY!

So long. Farewell. Good-bye,
sweet Bob.
Adios, adieu, aloha.

Sayonara,
as Bing would say.

Sayonara on a steel guitar.

--Campbell McGrath

=====

Hal     

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From Garrbearr  Mon Jul 28 18:22:33 2003
From: Garrbearr (Garrbearr at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:22:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] From another who never you at all Bob Hope...i wish for you
Message-ID: <158.222386d1.2c56fc29@aol.com>




   the silver glint of every heavens morning dew





:)
gary
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From ron.silliman  Mon Jul 28 07:24:52 2003
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 07:24:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c354fa$e1c42070$1d72ed41@Dell>

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

Is it flarf without Google?

Mary Burger:
writing with an edge

Robert Lowell &
the poetics of the Third Way

Louis Cabri on 
allusions, up or down

Spidertangle: the_book
On the margins between poetry
& visual art
come needlepoint & more

Reading "Biotherm"
by Frank O'Hara

Ted Berrigan:
1934-1983
How strange to be gone in a minute!

Robert Lowell
& the process of literary CPR

Reading Carla Harryman:
Situating poetry along new boundaries

Malevich:
Off center, 
thinking with material & shape

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

60,000 hits since September 2002






From gmguddi  Tue Jul 29 01:04:04 2003
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 00:04:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject)
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030729000330.012e3288@mail.ilstu.edu>


________________________________________________
www.antiwar.com (probably the most useful, thorough, and frequently updated 
of the urls pertaining to US foreign policy -- also one of the most 
credible of the avowedly anti-war right-wing websites)
http://www.truthout.org (stories exclusively from mainstream media -- for 
this reason, a very interesting website)
http://www.commondreams.org/ (this compilation website is subtitled 
"breaking news and views for the progressive community")
http://www.buzzflash.com/ (very earnest and sometimes annoying abstracts 
but generally the most sedulously updated website I frequent)
http://www.legitgov.org/ (*very* annoying abstracts and profoundly 
left-bias to this website, but useful stories)
http://www1.iraqwar.ru/?userlang=en (a Russian website rumored to be 
maintained by Russian intelligence. During the major combat in Iraq, this 
webste provided reports based on US-UK military radio communications. 
Sometimes carries and duplicates journalist pieces from western sources. 
Also interesting in that it provides reader-feedback sections. This 
feedback is often very caustic in its criticisms of the US invasion of Iraq 
and of US policy toward Israel and its occupation of Palestine.)
www.indymedia.org (Independent media source, cooperative. Broke the story, 
eg, with photographs, of how staged the toppling of the Saddam statue after 
the "liberation")
http://www.newamericancentury.org/ (this policy website is run by the 
Project for the New American Century, a "neo-con" organization with strong 
political and business and policy ties to the Bush administration. If you 
want to know what the administration is thinking or where it's going, this 
is a good place to start.)
www.onpower.org (a compendium of articles and bibliographic material about 
how US foreign market and military interests have been advanced by the 
advent and creation of national "crises" -- more of a thinktank website 
than a news source, but topical and germane)
http://www.aljazeerah.info/ (an online English version of Al Jazeera, the 
news source out of Qatar, which has won several prestigious international 
awards for its journalism [eg, a recent "anti-censorship award" called the 
"Freedom of Expression Award" given by the London-based Index on 
Censorship]. Of itself it says, "Your Gateway to Understanding the world 
system, American Foreign Policy, and the Arab and Muslim Worlds ..."  Very 
interesting source.)
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/index.htm (Associated Press breaking news. 
Some of these stories are later picked up by newspapers and are then 
altered by those newspapers. Sometimes it's interesting to note how 
newspapers alter the stories. For instance, just a few days ago the New 
York Times removed some statistics from an online story about how many US 
soldiers have been wounded in Iraq since the US invaded the country)

--"That there are men in all countries who get their living by war, and by 
keeping up the quarrels of nations, is as shocking as it is true; but when 
those who are concerned in the government of a country, make it their study 
to sow discord, and cultivate prejudices between nations, it becomes the 
more unpardonable."
         -- Thomas Paine, "The Rights of Man", circa 1792




From halvard  Tue Jul 29 07:06:56 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 07:06:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030729000330.012e3288@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEEJHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Thanks for the interesting list of links, Gabe. Your comment on this one
reminded me that Google News is useful in the same way--almost any
news story can be seen in hundreds of manifestations in papers around
the world as it works its way down (out?) from the wire services. Of
course, we all know that even a different headline above a story can
color our reading of it. Etc.

{    http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/index.htm (Associated Press breaking news. 
{    Some of these stories are later picked up by newspapers and are then 
{    altered by those newspapers. Sometimes it's interesting to note how 
{    newspapers alter the stories. For instance, just a few days ago the New 
{    York Times removed some statistics from an online story about how many US 
{    soldiers have been wounded in Iraq since the US invaded the country)

Hal     "Am I wrong, or are fewer and fewer people
            using the word 'Weltschmerz' these days?"
                      --Christopher Howell                                

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From grahamd  Tue Jul 29 08:27:24 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:27:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbirthday
Message-ID: <BB4BE06B.4111%grahamd@ripon.edu>

It was John Ashbery's birthday yesterday--he is a day over 76.  But why do I
tell you these things?  You are not even here. . . .



This Room


The room I entered was a dream of this room.
Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
The oval portrait
of a dog was me at an early age.
Something shimmers, something is hushed up.

We had macaroni for lunch every day
except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
You are not even here.

-- by John Ashbery from *Your Name Here* (Farrar, Straus, and Giroux).

-- 
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================





From grahamd  Tue Jul 29 09:18:21 2003
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:18:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
Message-ID: <BB4BEC5D.411A%grahamd@ripon.edu>

How about a pop quiz?

Who can identify the author of this author's note?

"Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
left hand? dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical exercise,
steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized charity,
magazine covers, and the gas company?"


-- 
====================================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
====================================================






From tadrichards  Tue Jul 29 09:36:53 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:36:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbirthday
References: <BB4BE06B.4111%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <012601c355d6$79340340$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

And why do I respond? I haven't even read your note.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:27 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbirthday


> It was John Ashbery's birthday yesterday--he is a day over 76.  But why do
I
> tell you these things?  You are not even here. . . .
>
>
>
> This Room
>
>
> The room I entered was a dream of this room.
> Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
> The oval portrait
> of a dog was me at an early age.
> Something shimmers, something is hushed up.
>
> We had macaroni for lunch every day
> except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
> to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
> You are not even here.
>
> -- by John Ashbery from *Your Name Here* (Farrar, Straus, and Giroux).
>
> -- 
> ====================================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ====================================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From MillB  Tue Jul 29 09:39:33 2003
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:39:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
Message-ID: <142.164cc3e9.2c57d315@aol.com>

Bob Fossee?

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From marcus  Tue Jul 29 09:44:44 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:44:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
In-Reply-To: <BB4BEC5D.411A%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3F26420C.14285.8F23B5@localhost>

> Who can identify the author of this author's note?
> 
> "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
> left hand? dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
> absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical exercise,
> steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized charity,
> magazine covers, and the gas company?"

Don Marquis, of course.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com







From bobgrumman  Tue Jul 29 10:08:49 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 10:08:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
References: <BB4BEC5D.411A%grahamd@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <018a01c355da$ef9d49c0$cc70fea9@j1c1k6>

How about a pop quiz?

Who can identify the author of this author's note?

"Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
left handS dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical exercise,
steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized charity,
magazine covers, and the gas companyS"


David Graham

I have no idea but can't resist guessing Frank O'Hara.

--Bob G.




From anny.ballardini  Tue Jul 29 10:51:40 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:51:40 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
References: <BB4BEC5D.411A%grahamd@ripon.edu> <018a01c355da$ef9d49c0$cc70fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <001701c355e0$eb6e1040$e41c2dd5@anny>

Marcus Bales cheated, he did what I did (that is why I know) and ran the
info on Google, the result is :

Don Marquis on Don Marquis,

here is the link,
http://www.donmarquis.com/don/autobio.html



> How about a pop quiz?
>
> Who can identify the author of this author's note?
>
> "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
> left handS dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
> absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical
exercise,
> steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized
charity,
> magazine covers, and the gas companyS"
>
>
> David Graham





From marcus  Tue Jul 29 11:08:31 2003
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:08:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
In-Reply-To: <001701c355e0$eb6e1040$e41c2dd5@anny>
Message-ID: <3F2655AF.20127.DBD8CC@localhost>

I'd just like to point out in my defense that I'm a light verse 
writer; I own all Don Marquis's books of light verse, and have been a 
fan of his since 1967 when I discovered his "Love Sonnets From A Cave 
Man", one example of which I give here:

When One Loves Tensely
Don Marquis

When one loves tensely, words are naught, my dear!
You never felt I loved you till the day
I sighed and heaved a chunk of rock your way;
Nor I, until you clutched my father's spear
And coyly clipped the lobe from off my ear,
Guessed the sweet thought you were too shy to say -
All mute we listened to the larks of May,
Silent, we harked the laughter of the year.

Later, my dear, I'll say you spoke enough!
Do you remember how I took you, sweet,
And banged your head upon the frozen rill
Until I broke the ice, and by your feet
Held you submerged until your tongue was still?
When one loves tensely, one is sometimes rough.

                   --Don Marquis


On 29 Jul 2003 at 16:51, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> Marcus Bales cheated, he did what I did (that is why I know) and ran the
> info on Google, the result is :
> 
> Don Marquis on Don Marquis,
> 
> here is the link,
> http://www.donmarquis.com/don/autobio.html
> 
> 
> 
> > How about a pop quiz?
> >
> > Who can identify the author of this author's note?
> >
> > "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
> > left handS dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
> > absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical
> exercise,
> > steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized
> charity,
> > magazine covers, and the gas companyS"
> >
> >
> > David Graham
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From anny.ballardini  Tue Jul 29 11:14:12 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:14:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
References: <3F2655AF.20127.DBD8CC@localhost>
Message-ID: <002b01c355e4$11d545c0$e41c2dd5@anny>

All rouff all rouff Bales,
you are the winner,
:-(
a

From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


> I'd just like to point out in my defense that I'm a light verse
> writer; I own all Don Marquis's books of light verse, and have been a
> fan of his since 1967 when I discovered his "Love Sonnets From A Cave
> Man", one example of which I give here:
>
> When One Loves Tensely
> Don Marquis
>
> When one loves tensely, words are naught, my dear!
> You never felt I loved you till the day
> I sighed and heaved a chunk of rock your way;
> Nor I, until you clutched my father's spear
> And coyly clipped the lobe from off my ear,
> Guessed the sweet thought you were too shy to say -
> All mute we listened to the larks of May,
> Silent, we harked the laughter of the year.
>
> Later, my dear, I'll say you spoke enough!
> Do you remember how I took you, sweet,
> And banged your head upon the frozen rill
> Until I broke the ice, and by your feet
> Held you submerged until your tongue was still?
> When one loves tensely, one is sometimes rough.
>
>                    --Don Marquis
>
>
> On 29 Jul 2003 at 16:51, Anny Ballardini wrote:
>
> > Marcus Bales cheated, he did what I did (that is why I know) and ran the
> > info on Google, the result is :
> >
> > Don Marquis on Don Marquis,
> >
> > here is the link,
> > http://www.donmarquis.com/don/autobio.html
> >
> >
> >
> > > How about a pop quiz?
> > >
> > > Who can identify the author of this author's note?
> > >
> > > "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little
finger of
> > > left handS dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's
poetry,
> > > absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical
> > exercise,
> > > steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized
> > charity,
> > > magazine covers, and the gas companyS"
> > >
> > >
> > > David Graham
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> Marcus Bales
>
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From tadrichards  Tue Jul 29 12:14:11 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:14:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
References: <BB4BEC5D.411A%grahamd@ripon.edu> <018a01c355da$ef9d49c0$cc70fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <002201c355ec$729228d0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Auden?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] About the author


> How about a pop quiz?
>
> Who can identify the author of this author's note?
>
> "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
> left handS dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
> absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical
exercise,
> steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized
charity,
> magazine covers, and the gas companyS"
>
>
> David Graham
>
> I have no idea but can't resist guessing Frank O'Hara.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 29 12:21:20 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 09:21:20 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
References: <3F2655AF.20127.DBD8CC@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F269F00.DE8C7CDE@earthlink.net>

Archie & Mehitabel are toots sweet.  As a matter of fact, Archie lives
in my bathroom.

- Jim

Marcus Bales wrote:
> 
> I'd just like to point out in my defense that I'm a light verse
> writer; I own all Don Marquis's books of light verse, and have been a
> fan of his since 1967 when I discovered his "Love Sonnets From A Cave
> Man", one example of which I give here:
> 
> When One Loves Tensely
> Don Marquis
> 
> When one loves tensely, words are naught, my dear!
> You never felt I loved you till the day
> I sighed and heaved a chunk of rock your way;
> Nor I, until you clutched my father's spear
> And coyly clipped the lobe from off my ear,
> Guessed the sweet thought you were too shy to say -
> All mute we listened to the larks of May,
> Silent, we harked the laughter of the year.
> 
> Later, my dear, I'll say you spoke enough!
> Do you remember how I took you, sweet,
> And banged your head upon the frozen rill
> Until I broke the ice, and by your feet
> Held you submerged until your tongue was still?
> When one loves tensely, one is sometimes rough.
> 
>                    --Don Marquis
> 
> On 29 Jul 2003 at 16:51, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> 
> > Marcus Bales cheated, he did what I did (that is why I know) and ran the
> > info on Google, the result is :
> >
> > Don Marquis on Don Marquis,
> >
> > here is the link,
> > http://www.donmarquis.com/don/autobio.html
> >
> >
> >
> > > How about a pop quiz?
> > >
> > > Who can identify the author of this author's note?
> > >
> > > "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
> > > left handS dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
> > > absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical
> > exercise,
> > > steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized
> > charity,
> > > magazine covers, and the gas companyS"
> > >
> > >
> > > David Graham
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard  Tue Jul 29 13:57:53 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:57:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
In-Reply-To: <3F269F00.DE8C7CDE@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEFDHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

   
{    Archie & Mehitabel are toots sweet.  As a matter of fact, Archie lives
{    in my bathroom.
{    
{    - Jim

And Mehitabel the other day, just to hear it ring.

Hal                "He's the kind of guy who can brighten
                      a room by leaving it."
                                   --Milton Berle
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From DICK  Tue Jul 29 13:53:16 2003
From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 03 13:53:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] John Ashbery's birthday
Message-ID: <200307291842.h6TIgJmL020032@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>

He must be slowing down -- I stayed with him for this one.
   or am I speeding up?

Richard


>>It was John Ashbery's birthday yesterday--he is a day over 76.  But why do I
>>tell you these things?  You are not even here. . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>This Room
>>
>>
>>The room I entered was a dream of this room.
>>Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
>>The oval portrait
>>of a dog was me at an early age.
>>Something shimmers, something is hushed up.
>>
>>We had macaroni for lunch every day
>>except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
>>to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
>>You are not even here.
>>
>>-- by John Ashbery from *Your Name Here* (Farrar, Straus, and Giroux).



From Rsgwynn1  Tue Jul 29 14:52:45 2003
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:52:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
Message-ID: <a1.3c1cbc15.2c581c7d@cs.com>

In a message dated 7/29/2003 8:40:56 AM Central Daylight Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes: 
> "Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
> >left hand? dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
> >absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical 
> exercise,
> >steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized 
> charity,
> >magazine covers, and the gas company?"
> 
Sharon Olds?
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From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 29 14:54:21 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:54:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] John Ashbery's birthday
References: <200307291842.h6TIgJmL020032@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <3F26C2DD.B61A3795@earthlink.net>

If you forget the first line by the time you get to the end, then
there's a mild surprise.  If you remember the first line, then you
should feel you've been had.

- Jim

DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com wrote:
> 
> He must be slowing down -- I stayed with him for this one.
>    or am I speeding up?
> 
> Richard
> 
> >>It was John Ashbery's birthday yesterday--he is a day over 76.  But why do I
> >>tell you these things?  You are not even here. . . .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>This Room
> >>
> >>
> >>The room I entered was a dream of this room.
> >>Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
> >>The oval portrait
> >>of a dog was me at an early age.
> >>Something shimmers, something is hushed up.
> >>
> >>We had macaroni for lunch every day
> >>except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
> >>to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
> >>You are not even here.
> >>
> >>-- by John Ashbery from *Your Name Here* (Farrar, Straus, and Giroux).
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 29 14:56:05 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:56:05 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEFDHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F26C345.B69A6EF0@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> 
> {    Archie & Mehitabel are toots sweet.  As a matter of fact, Archie lives
> {    in my bathroom.
> {
> {    - Jim
> 
> And Mehitabel the other day, just to hear it ring.

Further, Archie crept in on little roach feets.

- Jim



From anny.ballardini  Tue Jul 29 18:05:11 2003
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 00:05:11 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] nonsense
Message-ID: <013f01c3561d$7b659100$e41c2dd5@anny>

twittering twittering in the night

din said to don

or was it don to din?

(and he whispered in his ears)

and don answered to din

or was it din to don?

(and he whispered in his ears)

twittering twittering in the night


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From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Jul 29 18:57:56 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:57:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
Message-ID: <20030729225756.9EA7F3CBD@sitemail.everyone.net>

David Graham,

It could be you.  Virtually, it could be a whole lot of poetically-minded people.  In the context of Cafe-Blue members only, all things considered, it could even be me?  Nah!

Bob

Poetry Catamaran

"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"

Robert R. Cobb
AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
http://rrcobb.tripod.com


--- David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>How about a pop quiz?
>
>Who can identify the author of this author's note?
>
>"Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
>left hand? dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
>absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical exercise,
>steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized charity,
>magazine covers, and the gas company?"
>
>
>-- 
>====================================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>====================================================
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From robin.hamilton2  Tue Jul 29 18:55:28 2003
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robert Hamilton)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 15:55:28 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] nonsense
References: <013f01c3561d$7b659100$e41c2dd5@anny>
Message-ID: <019401c35624$82084fa0$58068751@robin>

... oh where were you going, said reader to rider?

<<
From: Anny Ballardini

twittering twittering in the night
din said to don
or was it don to din?
(and he whispered in his ears)
and don answered to din
or was it din to don?
(and he whispered in his ears)
twittering twittering in the night
>>

At last someone (trust Anny) gets it right -- it's (by convention) don
marquis (lower case, though I couldn't swear to the Cruise of the Jasper B),
but it's *always* archie and mehitabel -- toujours gay, mes vieux!

It's built into the nature of the shift key.

(Incidentally, leaving aside Don Marquis' [sic] Light Verse [Hermione's
Group of  {Serious?}Thinkers], there are now four collections of a&m poems,
two posthumously collected.)

Call me Francois

or

The Raggle-Taggle Gypsy Cat




From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Jul 29 19:01:19 2003
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:01:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] About the author
Message-ID: <20030729230120.99C483FCE@sitemail.everyone.net>

David,

...or, it could be any number of poets who frequent the [New-Poetry] list serve.

Bob

Poetry Catamaran

"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"

Robert R. Cobb
AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
http://rrcobb.tripod.com


--- David Graham <grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote:
>How about a pop quiz?
>
>Who can identify the author of this author's note?
>
>"Height, 5 feet 101/2 inches; hair, dove-colored; scar on little finger of
>left hand? dislikes Roquefort cheese, 'Tom Jones,' Wordsworth's poetry,
>absinthe cocktails, most musical comedy, public banquets, physical exercise,
>steam heat, toy dogs, poets who wear their souls outside, organized charity,
>magazine covers, and the gas company?"
>
>
>-- 
>====================================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>====================================================
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From tadrichards  Tue Jul 29 20:12:55 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 20:12:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gotta have one
References: <20030729230120.99C483FCE@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <002601c3562f$53848030$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

LOWELL, Massachusetts (AP) -- A homegrown literary icon will be remembered
next month with an honor usually reserved for sports figures: a bobblehead
doll.

The first 1,000 fans at the August 21 game between the Lowell Spinners and
Williamsport Crosscutters of the Class A New York-Penn League will receive
bobbing likenesses of Jack Kerouac.

The giveaway, in partnership with the English department at the University
of Massachusetts at Lowell, is part of "Jack Kerouac Night" at LeLacheur
Park.

The eight-inch doll features Kerouac holding a pen and notebook and standing
on a copy of "On The Road," his best-known work.

"It's unusual, to say the least, to have a sports team get involved with a
literary figure," said Hilary Holladay, director of the Kerouac Conference
on Beat Literature.

Before he was a writer, Kerouac was a baseball fan and athlete. He excelled
in football and track at Lowell High School, spent the winter of 1942 as a
sportswriter for The Sun of Lowell, and played football at Columbia.




From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 29 21:13:59 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:13:59 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gotta have one
References: <20030729230120.99C483FCE@sitemail.everyone.net> <002601c3562f$53848030$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <3F271BD7.667131FC@earthlink.net>

You betcha.  I guess we write U. Mass.?

- Jim

TheOldMole wrote:
> 
> LOWELL, Massachusetts (AP) -- A homegrown literary icon will be remembered
> next month with an honor usually reserved for sports figures: a bobblehead
> doll.
> 
> The first 1,000 fans at the August 21 game between the Lowell Spinners and
> Williamsport Crosscutters of the Class A New York-Penn League will receive
> bobbing likenesses of Jack Kerouac.
> 
> The giveaway, in partnership with the English department at the University
> of Massachusetts at Lowell, is part of "Jack Kerouac Night" at LeLacheur
> Park.
> 
> The eight-inch doll features Kerouac holding a pen and notebook and standing
> on a copy of "On The Road," his best-known work.
> 
> "It's unusual, to say the least, to have a sports team get involved with a
> literary figure," said Hilary Holladay, director of the Kerouac Conference
> on Beat Literature.
> 
> Before he was a writer, Kerouac was a baseball fan and athlete. He excelled
> in football and track at Lowell High School, spent the winter of 1942 as a
> sportswriter for The Sun of Lowell, and played football at Columbia.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jvcervantes  Tue Jul 29 21:28:34 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:28:34 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gotta have one
References: <20030729230120.99C483FCE@sitemail.everyone.net> <002601c3562f$53848030$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <3F271F41.84F76BB8@earthlink.net>

Boy, do they have a sucky homepage!  Anyway, the address is:

University of Massachusetts Lowell 
One University Avenue
Lowell, MA  01854

Don't have a clue who you'd direct queries to, but I suspect "Re: Jack
Kerouac bobblehead doll" would do the trick.

- Jim

TheOldMole wrote:
> 
> LOWELL, Massachusetts (AP) -- A homegrown literary icon will be remembered
> next month with an honor usually reserved for sports figures: a bobblehead
> doll.
> 
> The first 1,000 fans at the August 21 game between the Lowell Spinners and
> Williamsport Crosscutters of the Class A New York-Penn League will receive
> bobbing likenesses of Jack Kerouac.
> 
> The giveaway, in partnership with the English department at the University
> of Massachusetts at Lowell, is part of "Jack Kerouac Night" at LeLacheur
> Park.
> 
> The eight-inch doll features Kerouac holding a pen and notebook and standing
> on a copy of "On The Road," his best-known work.
> 
> "It's unusual, to say the least, to have a sports team get involved with a
> literary figure," said Hilary Holladay, director of the Kerouac Conference
> on Beat Literature.
> 
> Before he was a writer, Kerouac was a baseball fan and athlete. He excelled
> in football and track at Lowell High School, spent the winter of 1942 as a
> sportswriter for The Sun of Lowell, and played football at Columbia.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From hruggier  Wed Jul 30 09:01:51 2003
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:01:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gotta have one
References: <20030729230120.99C483FCE@sitemail.everyone.net> <002601c3562f$53848030$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <3F27C1BE.16AF710@localnet.com>

I gotta have one too.

Has anybody read the book of Kerouac Haiku?

Long Island Chinese Rain Poem

Nobody in the chair
Nobody in the books
Nobody in the rain

Empty baseball field
a robin
hops along the bench

Crossing the football field
coming home from work--
the lonely businessman



TheOldMole wrote:

> LOWELL, Massachusetts (AP) -- A homegrown literary icon will be remembered
> next month with an honor usually reserved for sports figures: a bobblehead
> doll.
>
> The first 1,000 fans at the August 21 game between the Lowell Spinners and
> Williamsport Crosscutters of the Class A New York-Penn League will receive
> bobbing likenesses of Jack Kerouac.
>
> The giveaway, in partnership with the English department at the University
> of Massachusetts at Lowell, is part of "Jack Kerouac Night" at LeLacheur
> Park.
>
> The eight-inch doll features Kerouac holding a pen and notebook and standing
> on a copy of "On The Road," his best-known work.
>
> "It's unusual, to say the least, to have a sports team get involved with a
> literary figure," said Hilary Holladay, director of the Kerouac Conference
> on Beat Literature.
>
> Before he was a writer, Kerouac was a baseball fan and athlete. He excelled
> in football and track at Lowell High School, spent the winter of 1942 as a
> sportswriter for The Sun of Lowell, and played football at Columbia.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From DICK  Wed Jul 30 09:45:25 2003
From: DICK (DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 03 09:45:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] John Ashbery's birthday
Message-ID: <200307301355.h6UDtOJr166328@northrelay02.pok.ibm.com>

I guess I'm not all that quick - I don't get your comment
at all.  The room dreamt isn't the "here." But so what -
it's a little joke - except at a reading, the the audience
of the poem is never "here."

And isn't Ashbery always "having" the reader?

R.
>>
>>Jim Cervantes wrote:
>>
>>
>>If you forget the first line by the time you get to the end, then
>>there's a mild surprise.  If you remember the first line, then you
>>should feel you've been had.
>>
>>- Jim
>>
DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com wrote:
>
> He must be slowing down -- I stayed with him for this one.
>    or am I speeding up?
>
> Richard
>
> >>It was John Ashbery's birthday yesterday--he is a day over 76.  But why do I
> >>tell you these things?  You are not even here. . . .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>This Room
> >>
> >>
> >>The room I entered was a dream of this room.
> >>Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
> >>The oval portrait
> >>of a dog was me at an early age.
> >>Something shimmers, something is hushed up.
> >>
> >>We had macaroni for lunch every day
> >>except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
> >>to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
> >>You are not even here.
> >>
> >>-- by John Ashbery from *Your Name Here* (Farrar, Straus, and Giroux).



From jvcervantes  Wed Jul 30 15:05:53 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 12:05:53 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] John Ashbery's birthday
References: <200307301355.h6UDtOJr166328@northrelay02.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <3F281711.9748F11E@earthlink.net>

"The room I entered was a dream of this room." = In a dreamed room
"You are not even here." = Reader/person addressed was not in the dream.
And, of course, one is pulled into the poem/dream room and then negated.
It's a trick.  And a conceit.

- Jim

p.s. - and not rewarding

DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com wrote:
> 
> I guess I'm not all that quick - I don't get your comment
> at all.  The room dreamt isn't the "here." But so what -
> it's a little joke - except at a reading, the the audience
> of the poem is never "here."
> 
> And isn't Ashbery always "having" the reader?
> 
> R.
> >>
> >>Jim Cervantes wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>If you forget the first line by the time you get to the end, then
> >>there's a mild surprise.  If you remember the first line, then you
> >>should feel you've been had.
> >>
> >>- Jim
> >>
> DICK at pkmfgvm4.vnet.ibm.com wrote:
> >
> > He must be slowing down -- I stayed with him for this one.
> >    or am I speeding up?
> >
> > Richard
> >
> > >>It was John Ashbery's birthday yesterday--he is a day over 76.  But why do I
> > >>tell you these things?  You are not even here. . . .
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>This Room
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>The room I entered was a dream of this room.
> > >>Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
> > >>The oval portrait
> > >>of a dog was me at an early age.
> > >>Something shimmers, something is hushed up.
> > >>
> > >>We had macaroni for lunch every day
> > >>except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
> > >>to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
> > >>You are not even here.
> > >>
> > >>-- by John Ashbery from *Your Name Here* (Farrar, Straus, and Giroux).
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard  Thu Jul 31 11:11:55 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:11:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Thursday"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEIEHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Thursday

I began to despair. One would need to be both blind
and deaf to misunderstand me. That girl who was raped,
some said she had no one but herself to blame.
The ferry was late, and, if it hadn't been late, we

would have missed it. Do you want to cross the street here,
or should we go on to the crosswalk at the corner?
How many ways are there to spell "Shostakovich"?
At low tide we can get out to the island on foot.

I shave every day, whether it's raining or not. No cars
allowed beyond this point. He often asked questions just to
strike up an acquaintance with strangers, even if he
already knew their answers. Please accept my apologies.

It took a hundred million years to make this island,
and now look what's become of it.


Hal        

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From paul.lake  Thu Jul 31 11:55:24 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 10:55:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
Message-ID: <BB4EA61B.51E0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Just saw this news item about my state and an "illegal poem." Many poets on
this list defended Baraka's controversial 9/11 poem--or at least his right
to read and publish it without being fired from his post of poet laureate of
New Jersey. What do list members think of the following situation? How
important is the literary quality of the poem in question? Many people found
Baraka's poem to be a tired rant, yet defended his right to remain in his
job. What about the individual below, who was fired?

Paul Lake



?? 'Illegal Poem' 
????The top emergency official in Arkansas resigned yesterday for sending
his 66 employees an e-mail poem making fun of immigrants and welfare
recipients, the Associated Press reports.
????Gov. Mike Huckabee's office said that it accepted W.R. "Bud" Harper's
apology and resignation.
????"The forwarded e-mail was neither humorous nor acceptable," Mr. Huckabee
said. 
????"In spite of all best intentions and dedication, we sometimes make
mistakes," Mr. Harper, 72, said in a letter announcing his resignation as
director of the Arkansas Department of Emergency Management. "Some of these
mistakes are so simple that it seems unreal that they can carry us into a
situation I must now address."
????Mr. Harper said earlier that he received the verse, titled "Illegal
Poem," from someone else and sent it along because he found it humorous.
????Among the poem's lines: "Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
Medicaid, it keeps you healthy." Another line accuses immigrants of bilking
the system: "By and by, I got plenty of money, Thanks to you American
dummy." 

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]





From tadrichards  Thu Jul 31 12:21:11 2003
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:21:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
References: <BB4EA61B.51E0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <003e01c3577f$c1562fe0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

I don't know that the poetry is the issue here. The guy probably would have
been pressured to resign in the same fashon if he had passed on a prose
e-mail making the same tired jokes about immigrants and welfare recipients.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 11:55 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem


Just saw this news item about my state and an "illegal poem." Many poets on
this list defended Baraka's controversial 9/11 poem--or at least his right
to read and publish it without being fired from his post of poet laureate of
New Jersey. What do list members think of the following situation? How
important is the literary quality of the poem in question? Many people found
Baraka's poem to be a tired rant, yet defended his right to remain in his
job. What about the individual below, who was fired?

Paul Lake



'Illegal Poem'
The top emergency official in Arkansas resigned yesterday for sending
his 66 employees an e-mail poem making fun of immigrants and welfare
recipients, the Associated Press reports.
Gov. Mike Huckabee's office said that it accepted W.R. "Bud" Harper's
apology and resignation.
"The forwarded e-mail was neither humorous nor acceptable," Mr. Huckabee
said.
"In spite of all best intentions and dedication, we sometimes make
mistakes," Mr. Harper, 72, said in a letter announcing his resignation as
director of the Arkansas Department of Emergency Management. "Some of these
mistakes are so simple that it seems unreal that they can carry us into a
situation I must now address."
Mr. Harper said earlier that he received the verse, titled "Illegal
Poem," from someone else and sent it along because he found it humorous.
Among the poem's lines: "Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
Medicaid, it keeps you healthy." Another line accuses immigrants of bilking
the system: "By and by, I got plenty of money, Thanks to you American
dummy."

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From paul.lake  Thu Jul 31 13:14:22 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:14:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
In-Reply-To: <003e01c3577f$c1562fe0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <BB4EB89E.51E5%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 7/31/03 11:21 AM, TheOldMole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:

> I don't know that the poetry is the issue here. The guy probably would have
> been pressured to resign in the same fashon if he had passed on a prose
> e-mail making the same tired jokes about immigrants and welfare recipients.

True, Tad, but I think the questions misses the point. If Baraka had written
a prose poem--one might even argue that his lines WERE fragmented
prose--would that have made a difference regarding his right to free speech
while holding a public office? Should passing along a piece of badly written
satirical doggerel be an offence worthy of firing or forced resignation? The
lines quoted in the little news snippet are hardly deathless poetry, but
neither are they as strongly worded as, say, certain anti-Semitic lines by
Eliot or Baraka.

If the two lines the article quotes are representative of the poem, are they
beyond the acceptable realm of political discourse?

"Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
Medicaid, it keeps you healthy."

"By and by, I got plenty of money,
Thanks to you American dummy."

What do others think?

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 31 13:47:27 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 10:47:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
References: <BB4EB89E.51E5%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F29562E.FA61F244@earthlink.net>


Paul Lake wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> If the two lines the article quotes are representative of the poem, are they
> beyond the acceptable realm of political discourse?
> 
> "Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
> Medicaid, it keeps you healthy."
> 
> "By and by, I got plenty of money,
> Thanks to you American dummy."

Paul, I'm so weary of the mentality behind those lines that I just don't
give a shit.

- Jim



From paul.lake  Thu Jul 31 13:48:44 2003
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 12:48:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
In-Reply-To: <3F29562E.FA61F244@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <BB4EC0AC.51EA%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 7/31/03 12:47 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> 
> Paul Lake wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> If the two lines the article quotes are representative of the poem, are they
>> beyond the acceptable realm of political discourse?
>> 
>> "Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
>> Medicaid, it keeps you healthy."
>> 
>> "By and by, I got plenty of money,
>> Thanks to you American dummy."
> 
> Paul, I'm so weary of the mentality behind those lines that I just don't
> give a shit.
> 
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
Jim, I understand the sentiment, but by withdrawing from the discussion, you
leave it to others to decide what is acceptable speech.

Paul

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From halvard  Thu Jul 31 13:40:58 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:40:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
In-Reply-To: <BB4EC0AC.51EA%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEIOHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

That is, you leave the defining up to folks like me, Jim.

Illegal poem = one written without poetic license.

Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
            taken and to whom nothing must be given."
                         --Anna Akhmatova

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From mandolin  Thu Jul 31 14:27:47 2003
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:27:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
Message-ID: <923687.1059676067880.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 11:55AM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:

>Just saw this news item about my state and an "illegal poem." Many poets on
>this list defended Baraka's controversial 9/11 poem--or at least his right
>to read and publish it without being fired from his post of poet laureate of
>New Jersey. What do list members think of the following situation? How
>important is the literary quality of the poem in question? Many people found
>Baraka's poem to be a tired rant, yet defended his right to remain in his
>job. What about the individual below, who was fired?

This guy used company resources to send offensive email--a firable offense almost everywhere, and one not protected by the First Amendment. In many places, you can be fired for /any/ personal use of company resources.  If he had used his home computer and his own ISP, he'd probably have been able to fight the firing, as did the former Intel employee whose name I can't remember (cost him a bundle and years of his life, though).

I'm not even sure that Baraka's case is a First Amendment issue--no one tried to prevent the publication of that incredibly stupid poem--at least parts of it were reprinted many more times than anything else of his, and it's probably generated more income for Baraka because of the flap than it otherwise would have. He can still write whatever poems he wishes and publish them wherever an editor will buy them. He just can't do it as the official poet of the state of New Jersey. Now he can do it as the man who bravely stood up to the state of New Jersey. Yuck.

Best,

Michael



From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 31 14:44:40 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:44:40 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEIOHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F296398.BA8A30D5@earthlink.net>

Oh.  I thought an illegal poem was one that went over 60 iams per
minute.  If you're talking to this Jim, that is.

- this Jim

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> That is, you leave the defining up to folks like me, Jim.
> 
> Illegal poem = one written without poetic license.
> 
> Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
>             taken and to whom nothing must be given."
>                          --Anna Akhmatova
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 31 14:47:41 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 11:47:41 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
References: <BB4EC0AC.51EA%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3F29644D.557085AF@earthlink.net>


Paul Lake wrote:
> 
> on 7/31/03 12:47 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Paul Lake wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If the two lines the article quotes are representative of the poem, are they
> >> beyond the acceptable realm of political discourse?
> >>
> >> "Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
> >> Medicaid, it keeps you healthy."
> >>
> >> "By and by, I got plenty of money,
> >> Thanks to you American dummy."
> >
> > Paul, I'm so weary of the mentality behind those lines that I just don't
> > give a shit.
> >
> > - Jim
> > ______________________> >
> Jim, I understand the sentiment, but by withdrawing from the discussion, you
> leave it to others to decide what is acceptable speech.
> 
> Paul

All speech is acceptable as long as no one gets hurt in any manner. 
Getting offended is another matter.  I get offended almost any time I
look at a television.  Or hear doggerel passed off as poetry.  But what
the hey . . .

- Jim



From bobgrumman  Thu Jul 31 14:56:39 2003
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 14:56:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
References: <BB4EA61B.51E0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <016b01c35795$7a081700$94c0fea9@j1c1k6>



'Illegal Poem'
The top emergency official in Arkansas resigned yesterday for sending
his 66 employees an e-mail poem making fun of immigrants and welfare
recipients, the Associated Press reports.
Gov. Mike Huckabee's office said that it accepted W.R. "Bud" Harper's
apology and resignation.
"The forwarded e-mail was neither humorous nor acceptable," Mr. Huckabee
said.
"In spite of all best intentions and dedication, we sometimes make
mistakes," Mr. Harper, 72, said in a letter announcing his resignation as
director of the Arkansas Department of Emergency Management. "Some of these
mistakes are so simple that it seems unreal that they can carry us into a
situation I must now address."
Mr. Harper said earlier that he received the verse, titled "Illegal
Poem," from someone else and sent it along because he found it humorous.
Among the poem's lines: "Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
Medicaid, it keeps you healthy." Another line accuses immigrants of bilking
the system: "By and by, I got plenty of money, Thanks to you American
dummy."

**I suppose he should have been fired for not realizing that government
officials are assholes.

--Bob G.




From halvard  Thu Jul 31 15:46:26 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 15:46:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
In-Reply-To: <3F296398.BA8A30D5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEJBHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

That, Jim, be a typo down below, don't it? I mean, you must
mean "iambs," since iams be kibbles for kitties or woofies.
Nother Jim around here?

Hal, the just
  
{    Oh.  I thought an illegal poem was one that went over 60 iams per
{    minute.  If you're talking to this Jim, that is.
{    
{    - this Jim
{    
{    Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    > 
{    > That is, you leave the defining up to folks like me, Jim.
{    > 
{    > Illegal poem = one written without poetic license.
{    > 
{    > Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
{    >             taken and to whom nothing must be given."
{    >                          --Anna Akhmatova
{    > 
{    > Halvard Johnson
{    > ===============
{    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    > 
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Thu Jul 31 16:41:25 2003
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:41:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEJBHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3F297EF5.D2E2F57E@earthlink.net>

Caught.

- Jim

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> That, Jim, be a typo down below, don't it? I mean, you must
> mean "iambs," since iams be kibbles for kitties or woofies.
> Nother Jim around here?
> 
> Hal, the just
> 
> {    Oh.  I thought an illegal poem was one that went over 60 iams per
> {    minute.  If you're talking to this Jim, that is.
> {
> {    - this Jim
> {
> {    Halvard Johnson wrote:
> {    >
> {    > That is, you leave the defining up to folks like me, Jim.
> {    >
> {    > Illegal poem = one written without poetic license.
> {    >
> {    > Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
> {    >             taken and to whom nothing must be given."
> {    >                          --Anna Akhmatova
> {    >
> {    > Halvard Johnson
> {    > ===============
> {    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
> {    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> {    >
> {    > _______________________________________________
> {    > New-Poetry mailing list
> {    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> {    _______________________________________________
> {    New-Poetry mailing list
> {    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard  Thu Jul 31 17:22:10 2003
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:22:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Illegal poem
In-Reply-To: <3F297EF5.D2E2F57E@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEJCHAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Think of it as being kibbleized.

Hal

{    Caught.
{    
{    - Jim
{    
{    Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    > 
{    > That, Jim, be a typo down below, don't it? I mean, you must
{    > mean "iambs," since iams be kibbles for kitties or woofies.
{    > Nother Jim around here?
{    > 
{    > Hal, the just
{    > 
{    > {    Oh.  I thought an illegal poem was one that went over 60 iams per
{    > {    minute.  If you're talking to this Jim, that is.
{    > {
{    > {    - this Jim
{    > {
{    > {    Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    > {    >
{    > {    > That is, you leave the defining up to folks like me, Jim.
{    > {    >
{    > {    > Illegal poem = one written without poetic license.
{    > {    >
{    > {    > Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
{    > {    >             taken and to whom nothing must be given."
{    > {    >                          --Anna Akhmatova
{    > {    >
{    > {    > Halvard Johnson
{    > {    > ===============
{    > {    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > {    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    > {    >
{    > {    > _______________________________________________
{    > {    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > {    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > {    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    > {    _______________________________________________
{    > {    New-Poetry mailing list
{    > {    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > {    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    > 
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From kpaul  Tue Jul 29 18:54:09 2003
From: kpaul (kpaul mallasch)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:54:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] [nosense] nonsense
In-Reply-To: <013f01c3561d$7b659100$e41c2dd5@anny>
References: <013f01c3561d$7b659100$e41c2dd5@anny>
Message-ID: <20030729175012.S39088@kpaul.spinweb.net>

twinkling twinkling once upon a time
king said to prez
or was it prez to king?
(and the world shuddered)
and king one-upped prez
or did the prez one-up king?
(and the world shuttered)

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003, Anny Ballardini wrote:

> twittering twittering in the night
>
> din said to don
>
> or was it don to din?
>
> (and he whispered in his ears)
>
> and don answered to din
>
> or was it din to don?
>
> (and he whispered in his ears)
>
> twittering twittering in the night
>
>
>