From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu Jan 2 13:07:20 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 13:07:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030102130514.00aaa7f0@postoffice.brown.edu> Happy New York, everyone! Well, I have joined the blogging flock, by Bog. You may find me at: http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com & who knows if it will last more than a day, liketh unto the grasse of the fielde. Henrh From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Jan 2 13:56:34 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 11:56:34 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030102130514.00aaa7f0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3E148B62.37F174E2@earthlink.net> Wish I could read it. On my Netscape browser (default settings), the print is equivalent to 8 pt, 9 pt at best. - Jim Henry Gould wrote: > > Happy New York, everyone! > > Well, I have joined the blogging flock, by Bog. You may find me at: > > http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com > > & who knows if it will last more than a day, liketh unto the grasse of the > fielde. > > Henrh > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu Thu Jan 2 14:13:58 2003 From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 13:13:58 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <3E148B62.37F174E2@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Jim, You can temporarily increase the font size by scrolling down the "view" menu at the top of the Netscape screen and clicking "increase font size." --Ed > Wish I could read it. On my Netscape browser (default settings), the > print is equivalent to 8 pt, 9 pt at best. > > - Jim > > Henry Gould wrote: > > > > Happy New York, everyone! > > > > Well, I have joined the blogging flock, by Bog. You may find me at: > > > > http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com > > > > & who knows if it will last more than a day, liketh unto the grasse > of the > fielde. > > > Henrh -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 2 14:41:41 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 14:41:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030102130514.00aaa7f0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <003d01c2b296$ff93a5a0$f92dfea9@j1c1k6> > Well, I have joined the blogging flock, by Bog. You may find me at: > > http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com > > & who knows if it will last more than a day, liketh unto the grasse of the > fielde. > > Henrh Good luck with it, Henry--but please don't get ten thousand annual visits like Ron did this past year to his. My equivalent, http://www.geocities.com.comprepoetica only gets around 1500 a year. According to the stats page, the most visitors I got in one day in December was on 5 December: 20. I have no idea why I got that many then. Anyway, even if that was my AVERAGE, I'd get less in a year than Ron's does. I don't want you to show me up, too! (Just kidding--I hope all other poetry sites get a million or more visits this year!) --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jan 2 17:01:22 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 17:01:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House & City Lore Present a Burns Supper Message-ID: <193.1349b519.2b4610b2@aol.com> Poets House & City Lore Present a Burns Supper Some hae meat and canna eat, And some wad eat that want it; But we hae meat, and we can eat, And sae the Lord be thankit. The Selkirk Grace Robert Burns Please join us for a unique evening of poetry, song, good company and fine cheer. A mid-winter hearth with Edinburgh's balladeer Ed Miller, including piping in the haggis, Burns' recitations, plenty of Scotch, and, of course, "Auld Lang Syne" -- along with a repast that will warm the cockles of your heart. Burns Suppers have been part of Scottish culture since a few years after the death of that nation's most famous bard in 1796. When: January 12th, 2003 @ 7:00PM Where: The Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, between Bleecker & Houston Cost: $100/person For more information, tickets, and reservations call Poets House, 212-431-7920, ext. 15. A benefit for Poets House & City Lore in support of the 2003 People's Poetry Gathering From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jan 2 17:58:23 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 17:58:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House & City Lore Present a Burns Supper In-Reply-To: <193.1349b519.2b4610b2@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E147DBF.1354.9FB7E8@localhost> On 2 Jan 2003 at 17:01, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Poets House & City Lore Present a Burns Supper > When: January 12th, 2003 @ 7:00PM > Where: The Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, between > Bleecker & Houston > Cost: $100/person > For more information, tickets, and reservations > call Poets House, 212-431-7920, ext. 15.<< An Englishman is being shown around a Scottish hospital. At the end of his visit, he is shown into a ward with a number of patients who show no obvious signs of injury. He goes to examine the first man he sees, and the man proclaims: "Fair fa' yer sonsie face, Great chieftain e' the puddin' race! Aboon them a' ye tak your place, Painch tripe or thairm: Weel are ye wordy o' a grace As lang's my arm." The Englishman, somewhat taken aback, goes to the next patient, who immediately launches into: "Some hae meat, and canna eat, and some wad eat that want it, But we hae meat and we can eat, And sae the Lord be thankit." And suddenly the next patient sits up and declaims. "Wee sleekit cow'rin tim'rous beastie, O what a panic's in thy breastie! Thou need na start awa sae hasty, wi' bickering brattle I wad be laith to run and chase thee, wi' murdering prattle!" "Well," said the Englishman to his Scottish colleague, "I see you saved the psychiatric ward for the last." "Nay, nay," the Scottish doctor corrected him, "This is the Serious Burns Unit." Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Jan 2 19:01:01 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 17:01:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House & City Lore Present a Burns Supper References: <3E147DBF.1354.9FB7E8@localhost> Message-ID: <3E14D2BD.4504FC11@earthlink.net> $100 per person is a serious burn, in ma wee est'mation. - Jim Marcus Bales wrote: > > On 2 Jan 2003 at 17:01, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Poets House & City Lore Present a Burns Supper > > When: January 12th, 2003 @ 7:00PM > > Where: The Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery, between > > Bleecker & Houston > > Cost: $100/person > > For more information, tickets, and reservations > > call Poets House, 212-431-7920, ext. 15.<< > > An Englishman is being shown around a Scottish hospital. At the end > of his visit, he is shown into a ward with a number of patients who > show no obvious signs of injury. He goes to examine the first man he > sees, and the man proclaims: > > "Fair fa' yer sonsie face, > Great chieftain e' the puddin' race! > Aboon them a' ye tak your place, > Painch tripe or thairm: > Weel are ye wordy o' a grace > As lang's my arm." > > The Englishman, somewhat taken aback, goes to the next patient, who > immediately launches into: > > "Some hae meat, and canna eat, and some wad eat that want it, > But we hae meat and we can eat, > And sae the Lord be thankit." > > And suddenly the next patient sits up and declaims. > > "Wee sleekit cow'rin tim'rous beastie, > O what a panic's in thy breastie! > Thou need na start awa sae hasty, > wi' bickering brattle > I wad be laith to run and chase thee, > wi' murdering prattle!" > > "Well," said the Englishman to his Scottish colleague, "I see you > saved the psychiatric ward for the last." > > "Nay, nay," the Scottish doctor corrected him, "This is the Serious > Burns Unit." > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Jan 2 19:45:45 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:45:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject)/ Visitors Message-ID: <20030103004545.6F60111E67@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Fri Jan 3 07:55:01 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 07:55:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: HG blog Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030103074242.00aaf400@postoffice.brown.edu> Jim, thanks for writing about the problem with the font size. I will see what I can do. Bob, I don't have a site-visit counter, I think I will not bother with it. If after ten years I discover I've had only 3 visitors - well, I will invest in a Winnebago & travel the world to visit them personally. A blog is nothing but a simple website. I would not like to see it take the place of list discussion. Some people have tried to justify their poetry blogs in part by complaining about the atmosphere on the poetry list they are on. What's to complain? They could always come over here to New-Poetry. I admire Ron Silliman's disciplined, topical approach. But since I know less about poetry than I know about topiary plant-culture in Malaysia (see my doctoral thesis, "Topiary Plant Adaptations to Weed-Carrying Migratory Pigeons in Late 18th-Century Singapore : An Introduction to Methodological Percepta", Leftover Univ. 1984) I will just have to try to make up for it with some of my magic stunts. Henry From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Jan 3 08:06:51 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 08:06:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House & City Lore Present a Burns Supper In-Reply-To: <3E14D2BD.4504FC11@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3E15449B.15235.1E7EC9@localhost> James Cervantes wrote: > $100 per person is a serious burn, in ma wee est'mation. To be sure: what might Burns himself say about a dinner that appealed to an audience wealthy enough to pay that much for poetry? The Jolly Beggars Robert Burns See! the smoking bowl before us, Mark our jovial ragged ring! Round and round take up the chorus And in raptures let us sing: A fig for those by law protected! Liberty's a glorious feast! Courts for cowards were erected, Churches built to please the priest. What is title? what is treasure? What is reputation's care? If we lead a life of pleasure, 'Tis no matter when or where. Life is all a variorum, We regard not how it goes Let them cant about decorum Who have characters to lose. --Robert Burns Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Jan 3 07:59:14 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 05:59:14 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: HG blog References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030103074242.00aaf400@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3E158922.4D665E1D@earthlink.net> Henry Gould wrote: > > Jim, thanks for writing about the problem with the font size. I will see > what I can do. As Ed Byrne pointed out, one can adjust by increasing font size, but why make a reader go through another step? Also, increasing font size can play havoc with the rest of the layout. Then, one has to return it to normal after reading. Instantly reader-friendly is my motto. And . . . > But since I know > less about poetry than I know about topiary plant-culture in Malaysia (see > my doctoral thesis, "Topiary Plant Adaptations to Weed-Carrying Migratory > Pigeons in Late 18th-Century Singapore : An Introduction to Methodological > Percepta", Leftover Univ. 1984) . . . Does Disneyland have that problem with its topiaries? - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Jan 3 09:30:10 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 06:30:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] re: HG blog Message-ID: <20030103143011.AF442437E@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From hruggier at localnet.com Fri Jan 3 11:08:03 2003 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 11:08:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House & City Lore Present a Burns Supper References: <3E15449B.15235.1E7EC9@localhost> Message-ID: <3E15B563.3881CD38@localnet.com> I imagine, as a true Scot, he'd find a way to get a piece of the action. Helen Ruggieri nee Mitchell Marcus Bales wrote: > James Cervantes wrote: > > $100 per person is a serious burn, in ma wee est'mation. > > To be sure: what might Burns himself say about a dinner that appealed > to an audience wealthy enough to pay that much for poetry? > > The Jolly Beggars > Robert Burns > > See! the smoking bowl before us, > Mark our jovial ragged ring! > Round and round take up the chorus > And in raptures let us sing: > > A fig for those by law protected! > Liberty's a glorious feast! > Courts for cowards were erected, > Churches built to please the priest. > > What is title? what is treasure? > What is reputation's care? > If we lead a life of pleasure, > 'Tis no matter when or where. > > Life is all a variorum, > We regard not how it goes > Let them cant about decorum > Who have characters to lose. > > --Robert Burns > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jan 3 11:25:11 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:25:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Pierian Springs Message-ID: <3b.31bd654b.2b471367@aol.com> http://www.pieriansprings.net/ From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jan 3 17:43:45 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 17:43:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] well put Message-ID: <164.19894aa4.2b476c21@aol.com> Soren Kierkegaard: "A poet's life begins in conflict with the whole of existence." From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Jan 3 18:58:54 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 17:58:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] well put In-Reply-To: <164.19894aa4.2b476c21@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030103175113.00b828c0@mail.ilstu.edu> Gosh I'd disagree soundly and go one further: Kierkegaard's apothegm here, out of context, seems sophomoric, romantic, trite, and a tad stupid. That said, I don't know if it'd read the same when packaged back in its paragraph and whatever letter or essay it came from. Like, what's "the whole of existence"? Many poets love whole lots of their existence and did so from the get-go. Also, why does it only *begin* in conflict? Does it then remain in conflict with all of existence? Reads like a statement made by a young guy trying to sound important. Soren and Robert Frost out there in their precious lover's quarrels with teh world. Ho hum. Gabe At 05:43 PM 1/3/2003 -0500, JforJames at aol.com wrote: >Soren Kierkegaard: >"A poet's life begins in conflict with the whole of existence." Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sat Jan 4 00:05:31 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 21:05:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] well put Message-ID: <20030104050531.CCDF44323@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Jan 4 02:01:46 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 01:01:46 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] these superb books is just in Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030104010001.017fdcd8@mail.ilstu.edu> My daughter Clio and I just had coffee (Clio had juice) with Mike Magee who gave me issues 2, 4, 6-11 of COMBO (www.combopoetry.com), so I've been reading them while she's been playing in this huge pink tent in the livingroom. Also on the table are: _Across the Line/ Al otro lado: The Poetry of Baja California_, Harry Polkinhorn & Mark Weiss, eds. _Immanent Visitor: Selected Poems of Jaime Saenz_, translated by Kent Johnson and Forrest Gander _Million Poems Journal_ Jordan Davis _Waltzing Matilda_ Alice Notley _V. Imp._ Nada Gordon (Faux Press) _Morning Constitutional_ Michael Magee (Handwritten Press) _Given_ Arielle Greenberg (Verse Press) _Drawing on the Wall_ Harriet Zinnes (Marsh Hawk Press) _Breath Takes_ Douglas Barbour (Wolsak and Wynn) and my own stupid book A Defense of Poetry that I just put a crust of pizza on. Mitchell Magee's artwork gracing the covers of COMBO is superb. It is fun to tip in and out of these, you know? I am doing that now. Except Douglas Barbour's and Harriet Zinnes' books are actually not on the table because they're in my office in Illinois. Michael Magee: "Sir, excuse me/ my rock chest hurts/ like a buffalo cleaving the land" Arielle Greenberg: "What comes more often than kisses to pollen is this train." Weiss/Polkinhorn, eds: "El poeta no le teme a la nada." (Elizabeth Cazessus) Nada Gordon: "think of a lemon" Alice Notley: "Yeah you dumb jerk." Jordan Davis: "Arizona is the sunrise of a fuckoff" Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Jan 4 03:35:18 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 02:35:18 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] well put In-Reply-To: <20030104050531.CCDF44323@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030104022855.0174bf50@mail.ilstu.edu> My apologies, I was over-the-top re the "s" word, sorry didn't check my tone. ISU is a great place to teach. And the faculty here in teh English department are great people. Very collegial and active group. And it's fun having Dalkey Archive here, and Fiction Collective 2 and American Book Review and Spoon River too. The dept's really changing a lot, age-wise, lot of new hires. Bloomington/Normal's a neat couple of towns. Even managed to find a Quaker meeting here. Anyway am at moment in Providence about 6 blocks from Henry Gould. I like your euphonious name. I have a friend named Bobby Dobby. gabe At 09:05 PM 1/3/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Gabe, > >I agree with your assessment! The quote is way too lofty and platudinous >to ever describe most poet's lives. > >I met my wife, Lorna, of 42 years, at ISU. It was ISNU then. I graduated >with a B.S. in Art Education, '63, staying on with a grad assistantship >for a year. Lorna later graduated from NIU. Her mother, two sisters, a >brother-in-law, and my parents all are alumni. I haven't been back there >for years! How do you like teaching there? > >Bob Cobb > >Poetry Catamaran > >"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known >mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > >Robert R. Cobb >AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. >http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > >--- Gabriel Gudding wrote: > >Gosh I'd disagree soundly and go one further: Kierkegaard's apothegm here, > >out of context, seems sophomoric, romantic, trite, and a tad stupid. That > >said, I don't know if it'd read the same when packaged back in its > >paragraph and whatever letter or essay it came from. > > > >Like, what's "the whole of existence"? Many poets love whole lots of their > >existence and did so from the get-go. > >Also, why does it only *begin* in conflict? Does it then remain in conflict > >with all of existence? > > > >Reads like a statement made by a young guy trying to sound important. Soren > >and Robert Frost out there in their precious lover's quarrels with teh > >world. Ho hum. > > > >Gabe > > > > > >At 05:43 PM 1/3/2003 -0500, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > >>Soren Kierkegaard: > >>"A poet's life begins in conflict with the whole of existence." > > > >Gabriel Gudding > >Department of English > >Illinois State University > >Normal, IL 61790 > >office 309.438.5284 > >home 309.828.8377 > > > >http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 4 13:31:49 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 13:31:49 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] well put Message-ID: In a message dated 1/3/03 6:00:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > I'd disagree soundly and go one further: Kierkegaard's apothegm here, > out of context, seems sophomoric, romantic, trite, and a tad stupid. That > said, I don't know if it'd read the same when packaged back in its > paragraph and whatever letter or essay it came from. > > Like, what's "the whole of existence"? Many poets love whole lots of their > existence and did so from the get-go. > Also, why does it only *begin* in conflict? Does it then remain in conflict > with all of existence? Gabe, I'm happy that it provoked a response. When I post quotes under that heading "well put," the caption should be read with a ghost "?" at the end. I wouldn't judge the quote as harshly, however; though it is surely romantic, as charged. I think a conflict with the whole existence is what drives many artists from the start. It's part of the feeling of being at odds with the time and place they find themselves: Misfit, outsider, one about to be unmasked. The notion of being enamored with earthy existence is certainly present in the ecstatic excesses of Whitman; while Dickinson might be a model for the poet's psyche out of synch with its environs. The context of the Kierkegaard is likely his notion of subjectivity... the severity and extremity of the "I" that makes it solely responsible for its existence, and yet the veil of existence (Berkeley) is ever apparent, which causes a frisson in the being. And surely there is behind those words that religious/spiritual drive to get beyond, to break the earthly fetters, to move freely from the mucky realm of existence into the glorious galactic arms of the universal. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 4 14:38:51 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 14:38:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?C=E9sar=20speaks=20to=20several=20recent=20thread?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s...=20?= Message-ID: Empathy & art... "Listening to Beethoven, a woman and a man are crying faced with the greatness of that music. And I say to them: maybe it's you who have this greatness in your hearts." Dada and what is art?... "The arts (painting, poetry, etc.) are not just these. Eating, drinking, walking are also arts; every act is an art. The slippery slope toward dadaism." The lyric or narrative mode... "Careful with the human substance of poetry!" An artist at odds with existence... "Nature creates eternity of substance. Art creates eternity of form." from Aphorisms, C?sar Vallejo translated by Stephen Kessler Green Integer #52 From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon Jan 6 06:51:40 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 06:51:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000201c2b579$fe2d09f0$cc0ff243@Dell> Survival: Tom Raworth's political poetry The renaissance of Rene Ricard Christian Bok's String Variables: Parallel poems (to the letter) Lyn Hejinian's My Life: Close reading revisions Poetry that changes your mind: Lyn Hejinian's My Life Murat Nemet-Nejat: Complicating the question of content - The reader's contribution & the question of divided loyalties Writing "Zyxt": Vision & revision in my own poem Poetry & blogging: Trends emerge The omnipresence of politics in poetry -- Reading the Australian journal Overland & Lorine Niedecker What is meaning & how does it manifest itself in poetry? http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ 10,000 visitors in 2002 From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jan 6 09:18:09 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:18:09 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Salvage Message-ID: http://www.salvagemagazine.com/ based in Albany NY From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Mon Jan 6 14:29:12 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 13:29:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] terror alerts manufactured? Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030106132744.01975520@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/010703A.alrts.manuf.htm Terror Alerts Manufactured? By Jon Dougherty WorldNetDaily.com January 4, 2003 FBI Agents Say White House Scripting 'Hysterics' for Political Effect Intelligence pros say the White House is manufacturing terrorist alerts to keep the issue alive in the minds of voters and to keep President Bush's approval ratings high, Capitol Hill Blue reports. The Thursday report said that the administration is engaging in "hysterics" in issuing numerous terror alerts that have little to no basis in fact. "Unfortunately, we haven't made a lot of progress against al-Qaida or the war on terrorism," one FBI agent familiar with terrorism operations told CHB. "We've been spinning our wheels for several weeks now." Other sources within the bureau and the Central Intelligence Agency said the administration is pressuring intelligence agencies to develop "something, anything" to support an array of non-specific terrorism alerts issued by the White House and the Department of Homeland Security. "Most of the time, we have little to go on, only unconfirmed snippets of information," a second FBI agent, who also was not named in the report, said. "Most alerts are issued without any concrete data to back up the assumptions." Indeed, the most recent terrorism alerts have been issued absent specific threat information. Each of the accompanying warnings comes without any shift in the nation's new color-coded alert system; the current warning level of yellow, or "elevated," has been in place since late September. Even recent reports regarding five Arab men who may have slipped into the country via Canada using phony identification could be politically motivated, one expert said. "We have very, very little to support the notion that these five represent any more of a threat than any of the other thousands of people who enter this nation every day," terrorism expert Ronald Blackstone said. "It's a fishing expedition." On Wednesday, one of the five, a Pakistani jeweler, Mohammed Asghar, was tracked down in Pakistan by The Associated Press. He told reporters there he'd never been to the U.S., though he said he tried once -- two months ago -- to use false documents to get into Britain to find work. "I imagine the finger pointing has started at the White House," Blackstone said. On Thursday, President Bush said of the Asghar case: "We need to follow up on forged passports and people trying to come into our country illegally." "Don't misunderstand, there is a real terrorist threat to this country," another FBI agent told CHB. But, the agent continued, "every time we go public with one of these phony 'heightened state of alerts,' it just numbs the public against the day when we have another real alert." Last year, the FBI issued alerts that terrorists may attack stadiums, nuclear power plants, shopping centers, synagogues, apartment houses, subways, and the Liberty Bell, the Brooklyn Bridge and other New York City landmarks, reported Knight-Ridder newspapers. The bureau also advised Americans to be wary of small airplanes, fuel tankers and scuba divers. CHB reported that FBI and CIA sources said a recent White House memo listing the war on terrorism as a definitive political advantage and fund-raising tool is just one of many documents discussing how to best utilize the terrorist threat. "Of course the White House is going to exploit the terrorism threat to the fullest political advantage," said Democratic strategist Russ Barksdale. "They would be fools not to. We'd do the same thing." The White House did not return phone calls from WorldNetDaily seeking comment. Knight-Ridder Newspapers, meanwhile, reported the FBI has never meant for all its warnings and advisories to be made public. "Everything is being described as a terror alert, and that's not what this stuff is," said Gordon Johndroe, spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security, in a July interview. But, he added, "if information is becoming public, then we naturally cannot work in a vacuum and pretend like all this information is not becoming public." "We live in a world of threats; not all of them necessitate a warning," says FBI terrorist warning chief Kevin Giblin, a 27-year veteran of the bureau. He told Knight-Ridder there should be a generally increased level of vigilance, and he looks to the color-coded advisory system -- not the alerts intended for police -- to signal it. The threat of terrorism may also be helping the White House manage the sagging economy. Officials at home finance giant Freddie Mac said yesterday that the threat of terrorism may have played a role in bringing 30-year mortgage rates down to 5.85 percent, their lowest since an average 5.83 percent in 1965. "Current issues such as the possibility of military actions abroad, heightened terrorism alerts and an unexpected drop in consumer confidence contributed to the decline in mortgage rates this week," Frank Nothaft, Freddie Mac chief economist, told Reuters. (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From luap at mallasch.com Mon Jan 6 13:30:55 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:30:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] terror alerts manufactured? In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030106132744.01975520@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: I read somewhere last night that the recent announcement of 'five terrorists' sneaking into the country was pure conjecture, but that the news media ran with it and began speculating again as to how the five got into the country, etc. Turns out one of the men on the list of five is in Pakistan and runs a store... -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/010703A.alrts.manuf.htm > > > Terror Alerts Manufactured? > By Jon Dougherty > WorldNetDaily.com > January 4, 2003 > FBI Agents Say White House Scripting 'Hysterics' for Political Effect > Intelligence pros say the White House is manufacturing terrorist alerts to > keep the issue alive in the minds of voters and to keep President Bush's > approval ratings high, Capitol Hill Blue reports. > The Thursday report said that the administration is engaging in "hysterics" > in issuing numerous terror alerts that have little to no basis in fact. > "Unfortunately, we haven't made a lot of progress against al-Qaida or the > war on terrorism," one FBI agent familiar with terrorism operations told > CHB. "We've been spinning our wheels for several weeks now." > Other sources within the bureau and the Central Intelligence Agency said > the administration is pressuring intelligence agencies to develop > "something, anything" to support an array of non-specific terrorism alerts > issued by the White House and the Department of Homeland Security. > "Most of the time, we have little to go on, only unconfirmed snippets of > information," a second FBI agent, who also was not named in the report, > said. "Most alerts are issued without any concrete data to back up the > assumptions." > Indeed, the most recent terrorism alerts have been issued absent specific > threat information. Each of the accompanying warnings comes without any > shift in the nation's new color-coded alert system; the current warning > level of yellow, or "elevated," has been in place since late September. > Even recent reports regarding five Arab men who may have slipped into the > country via Canada using phony identification could be politically > motivated, one expert said. > "We have very, very little to support the notion that these five represent > any more of a threat than any of the other thousands of people who enter > this nation every day," terrorism expert Ronald Blackstone said. "It's a > fishing expedition." > On Wednesday, one of the five, a Pakistani jeweler, Mohammed Asghar, was > tracked down in Pakistan by The Associated Press. He told reporters there > he'd never been to the U.S., though he said he tried once -- two months ago > -- to use false documents to get into Britain to find work. > "I imagine the finger pointing has started at the White House," Blackstone > said. > On Thursday, President Bush said of the Asghar case: "We need to follow up > on forged passports and people trying to come into our country illegally." > "Don't misunderstand, there is a real terrorist threat to this country," > another FBI agent told CHB. But, the agent continued, "every time we go > public with one of these phony 'heightened state of alerts,' it just numbs > the public against the day when we have another real alert." > Last year, the FBI issued alerts that terrorists may attack stadiums, > nuclear power plants, shopping centers, synagogues, apartment houses, > subways, and the Liberty Bell, the Brooklyn Bridge and other New York City > landmarks, reported Knight-Ridder newspapers. The bureau also advised > Americans to be wary of small airplanes, fuel tankers and scuba divers. > CHB reported that FBI and CIA sources said a recent White House memo > listing the war on terrorism as a definitive political advantage and > fund-raising tool is just one of many documents discussing how to best > utilize the terrorist threat. > "Of course the White House is going to exploit the terrorism threat to the > fullest political advantage," said Democratic strategist Russ Barksdale. > "They would be fools not to. We'd do the same thing." > The White House did not return phone calls from WorldNetDaily seeking comment. > Knight-Ridder Newspapers, meanwhile, reported the FBI has never meant for > all its warnings and advisories to be made public. > "Everything is being described as a terror alert, and that's not what this > stuff is," said Gordon Johndroe, spokesman for the Department of Homeland > Security, in a July interview. > But, he added, "if information is becoming public, then we naturally cannot > work in a vacuum and pretend like all this information is not becoming > public." > "We live in a world of threats; not all of them necessitate a warning," > says FBI terrorist warning chief Kevin Giblin, a 27-year veteran of the > bureau. He told Knight-Ridder there should be a generally increased level > of vigilance, and he looks to the color-coded advisory system -- not the > alerts intended for police -- to signal it. > The threat of terrorism may also be helping the White House manage the > sagging economy. Officials at home finance giant Freddie Mac said yesterday > that the threat of terrorism may have played a role in bringing 30-year > mortgage rates down to 5.85 percent, their lowest since an average 5.83 > percent in 1965. > "Current issues such as the possibility of military actions abroad, > heightened terrorism alerts and an unexpected drop in consumer confidence > contributed to the decline in mortgage rates this week," Frank Nothaft, > Freddie Mac chief economist, told Reuters. > (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is > distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in > receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) > > > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790 > office 309.438.5284 > home 309.828.8377 > > http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jan 6 13:47:48 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:47:48 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] National Poetry Slam 2003, in Chicago Message-ID: <22.346f842a.2b4b2954@aol.com> National Poetry Slam to > Recruit Volunteers for 14th Annual Championships > > > Chicago, IL, < National Poetry Slam organizers scored Chicago as the > location for the 14th Annual National Poetry Slam Championships (NPS) to > be held from August 5 through 9 < which means they?re rolling up their > sleeves and looking for help. To recruit more than 150 volunteers, who > will be critical to making the event happen, the planning committee is > sponsoring an informational party complete with food, music and all the > details on available positions. People are needed to do everything from > passing out flyers to assisting with marketing to preparing venues for > the bouts. The recruitment party will be held: > > Thursday, January 30, 7 PM > at Phyllis? Musical Inn ? 1800 West Division in Chicago > > Volunteers will be awarded free T-shirts, passes to all 2003 NPS events, > fun and the warm fuzzies that come from knowing that they?ve helped to > bring poetry to a wider audience in their communities. > NPS is held in a major city each year and last ignited Chicago in > 1999. The event was covered by The New York TImes, 60 Minutes and dozens > of local press. In 2002, Minneapolis, MN hosted more than 200 competing > poets during the national competition, which also attracted significant > media coverage. > This year, over 50 teams of poets will converge on Chicago to compete > in a series of spoken word bouts to hear whose voice and pen has the most > power. Poets will come from as far away as California, Florida and New > England as well as Scandinavia and Germany. The contenders will vie for > the title of National Slam Champions < and $5000 in prize money. > Preliminary bouts will be held throughout Wicker Park at seven > locations including Phyllis' Musical Inn, the Subterranean, and the > Chopin Theater. Several preceding events will whet Chicago appetites for > poetry. These include the Slammasters Weekend, April 3, 4, 5 and 6, when > organizers from around the country will come to Chicago to finalize plans > and perform at fundraising events. This year?s NPS also will have a > youth event. The grand finale will be held on August 9th at the Skyline > Theater at Navy Pier. > NPS organizers include: veteran 1999 organizers Henry Sampson, Maria > Mungai and Emily Calvo; host of Mental Graffiti at Chicago?s Funky Buddha > Lounge, Krystal Ashe; local poet, Katherine Zwick; Mark Eleveld of em > press; and Marc Smith, Poetry Slam founder and host of the Poetry Slam at > the Green Mill. > > The event is free. Advanced reservations are appreciated. For more > information or to RSVP, > call 708-848-8007 or 773-989-6784. > From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 7 12:06:03 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:06:03 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Norton Poets Online Newsletter Message-ID: <138.1978adaf.2b4c62fb@aol.com> Subj: Norton Poets Online Newsletter Date: 1/6/03 2:41:01 PM Eastern Standard Time From: nvictor at WWNORTON.com (Victor, Nomi) To: poetry at wwnorton.biglist.com ('poetry at wwnorton.biglist.com') http://www.nortonpoets.com ----------- Congratulations to Joy Harjo, who has been awarded the Arrell Gibson Lifetime Achievement Award from the Oklahoma Center for the Book recognizing a body of work contributing to Oklahoma's literary heritage. **New this month** Sherod Santos, THE PERISHING **New in the Poet's Workshop ** "Who Are You When You're Speaking, I?" an interview with Sherod Santos **New in paperback** James Lasdun, LANDSCAPE WITH CHAINSAW **Poem of the Month: "Hymn to Necessity" by Sherod Santos** With a chainsaw and axe, I've spent a long Morning cutting up a sycamore the storm Brought down. For all ten years we've lived here, It has shaded over our kitchen window, upheld Various clothes lines, feeders, rope-plank swings, The candle-lit rice paper Japanese lanterns, And even, on one occasion, one corner Of a straw-hooped canopy for a wedding. So borne in mind, I've come to find that, Rinsing dishes in the sink at lunch, The space it's cleared over-brims itself And turns what's not there outside in. But how good the sun feels in its absence, And how like absence to surprise me this way. (c) 2003 by Sherod Santos From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 7 12:56:51 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 12:56:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackbird online litmag Message-ID: <7b.69132dd.2b4c6ee3@aol.com> http://www.blackbird.vcu.edu/v1n2/index.htm From ccooley at overdomain.com Tue Jan 7 18:53:32 2003 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 15:53:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: well put In-Reply-To: <20030104170102.78067100C8@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > From: JforJames at aol.com > Soren Kierkegaard: > "A poet's life begins in conflict with the whole of existence." Finnegan, do you know where this quote appeared? I cannot find it and I'm curious to see if there is some further explanation of what SK meant by it. > From: Gabriel Gudding > Many poets love whole lots of their existence and did so from the get-go. Gabe, Love is not exclusive of conflict, is it? Doesn't it seem sometimes, on the contrary, that love is an invitation to conflict? Take marriage, for example... But we can imagine a love without arguments--love of a flower, perhaps--but even then, isn't there a conflict in the fading and death of the thing loved? Crisman From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 8 13:36:55 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:36:55 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: well put Message-ID: <6b.697ca18.2b4dc9c7@aol.com> In a message dated 1/7/03 6:55:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, ccooley at overdomain.com writes: > Soren Kierkegaard: > > "A poet's life begins in conflict with the whole of existence." > > Finnegan, do you know where this quote appeared? I cannot find it and I'm > curious to see if there is some further explanation of what SK meant by it. Crisman, it came out my commonplace book. I'm guessing it came out of Fear & Trembling...but more likely I found it in Auden's selection of SK: W.H. Auden: The Living Thoughts of Kierkegaard Finnegan From trbell at comcast.net Wed Jan 8 17:27:07 2003 From: trbell at comcast.net (tombell) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 16:27:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: well put References: <6b.697ca18.2b4dc9c7@aol.com> Message-ID: <019001c2b765$14e00200$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> you could also say, "life begins in aconflict with existence"? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: well put > In a message dated 1/7/03 6:55:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, > ccooley at overdomain.com writes: > > > Soren Kierkegaard: > > > "A poet's life begins in conflict with the whole of existence." > > > > Finnegan, do you know where this quote appeared? I cannot find it and I'm > > curious to see if there is some further explanation of what SK meant by it. > Crisman, it came out my commonplace book. I'm guessing it came out of > Fear & Trembling...but more likely I found it in Auden's selection of SK: > W.H. Auden: The Living Thoughts of Kierkegaard > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Jan 8 14:26:44 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 12:26:44 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: well put References: <6b.697ca18.2b4dc9c7@aol.com> <019001c2b765$14e00200$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3E1C7B73.FAF8CB53@earthlink.net> If a life began in existence would anyone hear it? - Jim, climbing out of deep thoughts into a shallow nap tombell wrote: > > you could also say, "life begins in aconflict with existence"? > > tom bell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:36 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: well put > > > In a message dated 1/7/03 6:55:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > ccooley at overdomain.com writes: > > > > > Soren Kierkegaard: > > > > "A poet's life begins in conflict with the whole of existence." > > > > > > Finnegan, do you know where this quote appeared? I cannot find it and > I'm > > > curious to see if there is some further explanation of what SK meant by > it. > > Crisman, it came out my commonplace book. I'm guessing it came out of > > Fear & Trembling...but more likely I found it in Auden's selection of SK: > > W.H. Auden: The Living Thoughts of Kierkegaard > > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Jan 8 15:35:42 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:35:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030108122851.01bff338@mail.ilstu.edu> Ron Silliman just wrote me with a welcome to the club of those who've received mean reviews (I am referring to a review in a student magazine), said it's part of the rites of passage for poets etc etc. He quoted bits of Robert Sward's review of Clark Coolidge in Poetry back in '67. He mention Andrei Codrescu calling him (Ron) a Stalinist thug. This got me to thinking: I would like to make an anthology -- in the manner of Nicolas Slonimsky's _Lexicon of Musical Invective_ -- of dismal, savage, hurtful, scathing, or obviously spiteful poetry reviews. The word "review" will here be taken loosely: any published piece containing commentary about poets and/or poetry. The review may focus on a person, a text (passage, poem, volume of poetry, anthology, periodical, webzine, etc etc), a genre (eg, prose poetry), a style, a group of poets, or a school. The review or commentary may be poorly written or excellently argued. Ad hominem attack will of course be considered, so long as I can determine that its inclusion in the anthology will not be considered actionable. I would prefer not to limit the anthology by nationality or identity, only temporally: only those reviews published in this and the previous century. There are two basic purposes behind this anthology: (1) to show the contest behind taste [or the contest that is taste]; (2) to show the metamorphosis of taste over time (in, say, Alan's [Golding's] outlaw to classic arc, yes--but also, frankly, in the arc of the dud). Proviso: these reviews must have already been published. Please send either full text or url links to me via post or email (contact info below). Please include full citation as to when and where the piece or pieces were published (eg, do not send excised snippets) -- and where possible full text. Thank you. Please send to: Gabriel Gudding Assistant Professor of English PO Box 4240 Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 USA office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 gmguddi at ilstu.edu gwg6 at cornell.edu From adead_poet at hotmail.com Wed Jan 8 14:43:54 2003 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 13:43:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) Message-ID: Ok, I?ll drop by some morning and pick them all up. I guess after 8 years it must be nice to take a break and enjoy the other features of the conference. But do you really think that Hudgins is the best replacement for you? OK...I?m debating on whether or not to take Donoghy?s Poetic Line or Alicia Stallings Sonnet class (leaning towards Stallings). Any opinion as to which one you think I should take? Also, there are two one day workshops I?m looking at. Dana?s Free Verse and Charles Martin?s French forms (I do love that villanelle). Any opinion on them? I couldn?t remember if you said you tried to teach Big Sur or The Subterraneans. Big Sur isn?t all that great. Yeah, you should have went with On the Road. Or the Dharma Bums. Have you read Dharma Bums? It?s a great book?has a lot of that energy On the Road has, except it?s Snyder rather than Cassady. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Jan 8 15:04:55 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:04:55 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030108122851.01bff338@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: on 1/8/03 2:35 PM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote: > Ron Silliman just wrote me with a welcome to the club of those who've > received mean reviews (I am referring to a review in a student magazine), > said it's part of the rites of passage for poets etc etc. He quoted bits of > Robert Sward's review of Clark Coolidge in Poetry back in '67. He mention > Andrei Codrescu calling him (Ron) a Stalinist thug. > > This got me to thinking: I would like to make an anthology -- in the manner > of Nicolas Slonimsky's _Lexicon of Musical Invective_ -- of dismal, savage, > hurtful, scathing, or obviously spiteful poetry reviews. The word "review" > will here be taken loosely: any published piece containing commentary about > poets and/or poetry. The review may focus on a person, a text (passage, > poem, volume of poetry, anthology, periodical, webzine, etc etc), a genre > (eg, prose poetry), a style, a group of poets, or a school. The review or > commentary may be poorly written or excellently argued. Ad hominem attack > will of course be considered, so long as I can determine that its inclusion > in the anthology will not be considered actionable. I would prefer not to > limit the anthology by nationality or identity, only temporally: only those > reviews published in this and the previous century. > > There are two basic purposes behind this anthology: (1) to show the contest > behind taste [or the contest that is taste]; (2) to show the metamorphosis > of taste over time (in, say, Alan's [Golding's] outlaw to classic arc, > yes--but also, frankly, in the arc of the dud). > > Proviso: these reviews must have already been published. Please send either > full text or url links to me via post or email (contact info below). Please > include full citation as to when and where the piece or pieces were > published (eg, do not send excised snippets) -- and where possible full > text. Thank you. > > Please send to: > > Gabriel Gudding > Assistant Professor of English > PO Box 4240 > Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790 > USA > office 309.438.5284 > home 309.828.8377 > gmguddi at ilstu.edu > gwg6 at cornell.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > Gabe, I don't remember offhand where to find it, but the most vicious review I ever read was of Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass. The reviewer said that the book was so abominable that the author should kill himself. He added that he should kill himself in a way that no other suicide had employed so as not to disgrace that unfortunate person by association with such a creature as Whitman. How's that for an ad hominem. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Jan 8 16:22:30 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 15:22:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030108122851.01bff338@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030108152023.01c26b30@mail.ilstu.edu> > > > >Gabe, I don't remember offhand where to find it, but the most vicious review >I ever read was of Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass. The reviewer said that >the book was so abominable that the author should kill himself. He added >that he should kill himself in a way that no other suicide had employed so >as not to disgrace that unfortunate person by association with such a >creature as Whitman. How's that for an ad hominem. > >Paul Lake Paul, darn it, that's too bad it's not from the right century (unless it was a really belated review??) I used to read a lot of microfilm and fiche American magazines from the 1810s to the 1860s -- and those nuts knew how to bite. Thanks for the come-back. gabe From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 8 15:25:09 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:25:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030108122851.01bff338@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <005101c2b754$0aedfce0$bff3fea9@j1c1k6> > Ron Silliman just wrote me with a welcome to the club of those who've > received mean reviews (I am referring to a review in a student magazine), > said it's part of the rites of passage for poets etc etc. I agree, and am chagrinned to admit I've still not yet had my first negative review. I think negative reviews are much harder to get than positive ones. Every poet has a friend or two who'll support him with a review. It's harder to get an enemy who'll consider you worth demolishing. --Bob G. From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Wed Jan 8 15:27:07 2003 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 14:27:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions Message-ID: <3.0.32.20030108142707.00d57bb4@medicine.nodak.edu> At 02:35 PM 1/8/03 -0600, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > I would like to make an anthology -- in the manner >of Nicolas Slonimsky's _Lexicon of Musical Invective_ -- of dismal, savage, >hurtful, scathing, or obviously spiteful poetry reviews. The word "review" >will here be taken loosely: any published piece containing commentary about >poets and/or poetry. The review may focus on a person, a text (passage, >poem, volume of poetry, anthology, periodical, webzine, etc etc), a genre >(eg, prose poetry), a style, a group of poets, or a school. The review or >commentary may be poorly written or excellently argued. Ad hominem attack >will of course be considered, so long as I can determine that its inclusion >in the anthology will not be considered actionable. I would prefer not to >limit the anthology by nationality or identity, only temporally: only those >reviews published in this and the previous century. > >There are two basic purposes behind this anthology: (1) to show the contest >behind taste [or the contest that is taste]; (2) to show the metamorphosis >of taste over time (in, say, Alan's [Golding's] outlaw to classic arc, >yes--but also, frankly, in the arc of the dud). Gabriel, You might want to take a look at the material at the following website: www.rejectioncollection.com That may give you some ideas of good ore for mining, and how best to go about making your own collection. The weak point is that, IIRC, most of these rejections are from editors to submitting authors, and are not published insults or jeremiads. Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jan 8 16:10:34 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:10:34 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions Message-ID: <16f.18e34696.2b4dedca@cs.com> This has been done by William Henderson. It's titled Rotten Reviews, I believe. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jan 8 16:12:08 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:12:08 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) Message-ID: <14b.1a037197.2b4dee28@cs.com> In a message dated 1/8/2003 1:45:10 PM Central Standard Time, adead_poet at hotmail.com writes: > Have you read Dharma Bums? It?s a great > book?has a lot of that energy On the Road has, except it?s Snyder rather > than Cassady. One of these days . . . . I'm looking forward to the conference. I'm the only faculty member to have taught at every one since the beginning, so I can safely retire the string. All I have to do is introduce the poets each night. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Jan 8 16:13:06 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 13:13:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: well put Message-ID: <20030108211306.CB4D940B6@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jan 8 16:14:22 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:14:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions Message-ID: <179.142d216b.2b4deeae@cs.com> In a message dated 1/8/2003 2:08:19 PM Central Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > Gabe, I don't remember offhand where to find it, but the most vicious review > I ever read was of Walt Whitman's Leaves of Grass. The reviewer said that > the book was so abominable that the author should kill himself. He added > that he should kill himself in a way that no other suicide had employed so > as not to disgrace that unfortunate person by association with such a > creature as Whitman. How's that for an ad hominem. > > Paul Lake Whitman also reviewed Leaves of Grass himself. An excerpt can be found in Adrian Stoutenberg's critical bio. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Jan 8 17:17:12 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 16:17:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions In-Reply-To: <16f.18e34696.2b4dedca@cs.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030108161512.01c220b8@mail.ilstu.edu> Okay, thanks. I guess I'll do it again, though. Josh McKinney's just alerted me to the same thing. But those volumes by Henderson don't focus exclusively on poetry... so that's good. thanks though. g At 04:10 PM 1/8/2003 -0500, you wrote: >This has been done by William Henderson. It's titled Rotten Reviews, I >believe. From trbell at comcast.net Wed Jan 8 23:02:05 2003 From: trbell at comcast.net (tombell) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:02:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: well put References: <6b.697ca18.2b4dc9c7@aol.com> Message-ID: <026801c2b793$e083ba40$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> Haven't found the quote, but when he wrote it might be important in figuring out his intention here/ tom ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: well put > In a message dated 1/7/03 6:55:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, > ccooley at overdomain.com writes: > > > Soren Kierkegaard: > > > "A poet's life begins in conflict with the whole of existence." > > > > Finnegan, do you know where this quote appeared? I cannot find it and I'm > > curious to see if there is some further explanation of what SK meant by it. > Crisman, it came out my commonplace book. I'm guessing it came out of > Fear & Trembling...but more likely I found it in Auden's selection of SK: > W.H. Auden: The Living Thoughts of Kierkegaard > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Jan 8 20:16:27 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 20:16:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions References: <16f.18e34696.2b4dedca@cs.com> Message-ID: <002d01c2b77c$bd12d170$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> It was actually by Jim Charlton (a good friend of Henderson's) but it wasn't restriocted to poetry or this century. I was savaged in Chiron Review -- I'll try to find it and send it on. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions This has been done by William Henderson. It's titled Rotten Reviews, I believe. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 8 20:21:21 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 20:21:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions Message-ID: <9.6babcca.2b4e2891@aol.com> Gabe, the dreadnought Willian Logan will have certainly left a few poet floating face down in his wake. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 8 20:27:07 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 20:27:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions Message-ID: In a message dated 1/8/03 4:16:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > > Whitman also reviewed Leaves of Grass himself. An excerpt can be found in > Adrian Stoutenberg's critical bio. > Any time something is written against me, I not only share the sentiment but feel I could do the job far better myself. Perhaps I should advise would-be enemies to send me their grievances beforehand, with full assurance that they will receive my every aid and support. I have even secretly longed to write, under a pen name, a merciless tirade against myself. Jorge Luis Borges (autobiographical essay, 1970) From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Jan 8 20:54:11 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 20:54:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions References: Message-ID: <000b01c2b782$01d3e290$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> > In a message dated 1/8/03 4:16:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > writes: > Any time something is written against me, I not only share the sentiment > but feel I could do the job far better myself. Perhaps I should advise > would-be enemies to send me their grievances beforehand, with full assurance > that they will receive my every aid and support. I have even secretly longed > to write, under a pen name, a merciless tirade against myself. > Jorge Luis Borges (autobiographical essay, 1970) I actually did this once, not on the level of Borges or Whitman. My brother and I had written the screenplay for a movie called "The Happy Hooker Goes To Washington," but through a sad and boring confluence of circumstances, we got jobbed out of screen credit, which was given to the original writer, whose script had been almost entirely discarded, but who had a better contract than we did (we were told by someone who saw the screening of the final cut that he told the producers, "Those guys did such a good job on this script that I want their names off and mine on"). We had done a good job, but the movie had fairly well been butchered by the director, and they also kept putting back in a joke from the original script which we kept writing out, about Puerto Ricans getting rich on welfare, plus some other stuff that was just as bad. Anyway, I was editing a not-very-good magazine in those days, and my brother was writing the movie reviews, so since our name wasn't on the movie, I had him review it, and he savaged it...up to a point. He wrote that the script seemed to be the work of two different sensibilities, one pedestrian and tasteless, the other worthy of the Marx Brothers at their finest. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jan 8 22:05:29 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 22:05:29 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions Message-ID: <123.1c70a592.2b4e40f9@cs.com> In a message dated 1/8/2003 7:28:53 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > I have even secretly longed > to write, under a pen name, a merciless tirade against myself. > Jorge Luis Borges (autobiographical essay, 1970) I believe that Pierre Menard did something similar. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.kelly at nyu.edu Thu Jan 9 21:09:13 2003 From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly) Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 18:09:13 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paulin -- On Being Dealt the Anti-Semitic Card Message-ID: On Being Dealt the Anti-Semitic Card Tom Paulin Wednesday January 8, 2003 The Guardian The first answer is Beckett's in another context - to "Mr Beckett they say that you are English?" he answered "au contraire" - he didn't say "I am not dot dot" which plays their game - in this case the ones who play the a-s card - of death threats hate mail talking tough the usual cynical Goebbels stuff so I say the same and say that peace it must be talked re Palestine and re Iraq - Israel has got the bomb but that's not why no one in their right mind says Israel should be swept into the sea - historic guilt is and must be always with us - it knows the railway line to Auschwitz went unbombed it counts the refugees turned back and sees that Nacht und Nebel track they called the Himmelfahrt the long unthinkable - must be always thought - - go back see England and Ireland force the Jews out watch the Crusaders those mailclad terrorist invaders making rivers of blood in Palestine (not Virgil via Enoch Powell) recall the Dreyfus case anti-semites packed in Austria-Hungary and Poland Croatia the Ukraine - the list is endless it turns one's bowels and must be made in every generation as we count the sinister 15+ per cent of Le Pen French - but they hate black people Arabs and constantly attack them the Battle of Algiers they're still fighting they want the guillotine brought back in a culture built on comme il faut and quite unwilling to admit its faults - so taste the deep uneasy darkness in our Enlightenment savants and philosophes going down the rungs of that tight unsteady Aufkl?rung back into that bony stinking ragshop whence they sprung (we mustn't though be mastered by De Maistre who in his manner sees what's wrong) as Berlin - Isaiah - shows who dying called for fairness to all those - those Palestinians he never named them who suffered Nakba (catastrophe in 48) and still suffer it - the refugees it's now their turn to have that human right - return sold at Oslo down the river by Arafat that double-ditherer - artless arkless Arafat but all this guilt - guilt that stings is now fitted to a programme - Christian fundamentalist born again into that Zion we all are touched by - are spitted on (when Israel went out of Egypt the House of Jacob from a people of strange language - the hills saw this and leapt they leapt like lambs - I harken to it to that liberation text Milton set in Greek and English verse before it got twisted) the programme though of saying Israel's critics are tout court anti-semitic is designed daily by some schmuck to make you shut the fuck up - so keep your head down in the sands or police the Index of what can and cannot be said and don't utter a word or a single sound and if you do you won't be heard authors take sides on spain Beckett answered Auden's question with ?Up the Republic! and went on to fight the Occupation - no talk of Beckett's Croix de Guerre only cricket scores and mouldy Wisdens authors take sides on palestine where was that piece? where do we stand? on a career path where darlings pass from job to job ignoring who's been robbed ignoring what the British did decades back in Palestine we must create who was it in the 20s said another little Ulster* now watch those darlings as they glide over shifting sands lost in the dark or bowing their heads below those guilt-inducing wands waved like flags above the Shankill Road so the Palestinians they're forgotten - robbed dying wrecked the victims of the victims out on a severed a dying limb waiting for the next Nakba when they'll be pushed out into Jordan - this is Sharon's plan soon as Bush and Blair they hit Iraq - now as the reed sea bends - collusive sensitive in two minds granting the settlers squatters' rights - it parts to let yet more soldiers through * Sir Ronald Storrs, the first British governor of Jerusalem, wrote of British support for Zionism that Palestine would be "for England a 'little loyal Jewish Ulster' in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism". This poem first appeared in the London Review of Books From lcrespi at yahoo.com Fri Jan 10 01:48:16 2003 From: lcrespi at yahoo.com (Linda Crespi) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 22:48:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] January Snakeskin In-Reply-To: <000201c293d5$b4353c20$583affd1@ibm25310> Message-ID: <20030110064816.65474.qmail@web13904.mail.yahoo.com> Can i draw your attention to January Snakeskin, which has been online for a while. Includes a poem by Alison Brackenbury, one of my favourite poets. Linda ===== The Crespi Page is at: http://snakeskin.org.uk/crespi.htm New work appears usually in Snakeskin Webzine: http://www.snakeskin.org.uk __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Fri Jan 10 11:58:33 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:58:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] news from HG Poetics Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030110115510.00aac1e0@postoffice.brown.edu> I've been blogging like Ron Silliman's Frankenstein this week. All you ever should have wanted to know about HG Poetics (http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com). Russian poets, American epics, Henry's writing problems, the Socky Dialogues, oppositional poetics, little old short poems. . . this is great! I've finally found a place where I can talk about myself to myself without bothering other people TOO much. Henry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Jan 10 12:26:59 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 09:26:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] news from HG Poetics Message-ID: <20030110172659.E39B4419B@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jan 10 17:25:05 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:25:05 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] www: LITNET.net Message-ID: <55.35e18b6e.2b50a241@aol.com> http://www.biblion.com/litweb/index.html From joseph.lucia at villanova.edu Fri Jan 10 17:35:02 2003 From: joseph.lucia at villanova.edu (Joseph Lucia) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:35:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] www: LITNET.net References: <55.35e18b6e.2b50a241@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E1F4A96.B7AC1398@villanova.edu> Thanks, Luisa. I think we have this covered now. You'll have plenty of other things to do with planning etc. ;-) From joseph.lucia at villanova.edu Fri Jan 10 17:35:31 2003 From: joseph.lucia at villanova.edu (Joseph Lucia) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 17:35:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] www: LITNET.net References: <55.35e18b6e.2b50a241@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E1F4AB3.B5752710@villanova.edu> Whoops. I replied to the wrong message. From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Sat Jan 11 12:11:08 2003 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 11:11:08 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Justice on aging Message-ID: <3.0.32.20030111111107.00e847e8@medicine.nodak.edu> Some of Donald Justice's best poems can be described as "uncomfortably memorable." In my 60th year, preoccupied with the urge/desire/need to continue creating, I have accidentally re-encountered the poem below. With malicious generosity I thought I might share the load with other mature readers. Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu --------------------------------------------------------- The Telephone Number of the Muse Sleepily, the muse to me: 'Let us be friends. Good friends, but only friends. You understand.' And yawned. And kissed, for the last time, my ear. Who earlier, weeping at my touch, had whispered: 'I loved you once.' And: 'No, I didn't love him. Not after everything he did.' Later, Rebuttoning her nightgown with my help: 'Sorry, I just have no desire, it seems.' Sighing: 'For you, I mean.' Long silence. Then: 'You were always so serious.' At which I smiled, darkly. And that was how I came To sleep beside, not with her; without dreams. I call her up sometimes, long distance now. And she still knows my voice, but I can hear, Always beyond the music of her phonograph, The laughter of the young men with their keys. I have the number written down somewhere. from _Departures_ by Donald Justice --------------------------------------------------------- From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 11 12:20:57 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 12:20:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Burns Supper scrubbed Message-ID: <7d.338cac41.2b51ac79@aol.com> "The best laid schemes of o' mice an' men Gang aft a-gley." --Robert Burns Alas, alas, The Burns Supper scheduled for January 12 at the Bowery Poetry Club has had to be cancelled due to a number of unforeseen circumstances. We are disappointed (but at least spared from eating haggis!). Thanks so much for your forbearance. Lee Briccetti, Executive Director Poets House 72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor New York, New York 10012 212-431-7920 x17 212-431-8131 (fax) www.poetshouse.org From Garrbearr at aol.com Sat Jan 11 13:27:15 2003 From: Garrbearr at aol.com (Garrbearr at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 13:27:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] What makes it difficult to talk about what makes writing (new member, Gary) Message-ID: <1be.1aea1bc8.2b51bc03@aol.com> is the very difference in every writer. Some writers complete an assignment answering every question to the satisfaction of the regulations of the assignment. Others don't even come close but may learn more in their floundering. Yet their punctuation and grammar could be atrocious. How do you defend such a paper? I don't know. I'd like to believe good intent wins over a mastery of structure and technique. And I'd like to believe that the mastery of structure and technique is only a concealment of perhaps more profound problems as a writer. But I can't, shouldn't assume that. This is what makes the judgement of good writing dangerously subjective. -gary thompson From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Sat Jan 11 20:19:46 2003 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:19:46 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eventually.... Message-ID: <3.0.32.20030111191945.00f200f0@medicine.nodak.edu> A good reason for optimistic poets to keep themselves fit, trim, and away from (too much) alcohol or other substances: Eventually they may be rewarded (rather than their estates)? Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------- The BBC, Saturday, 11 January, 2003, 14:19 GMT Poet and writer Dylan Thomas has been nominated for a US Grammy award, in the year which marks the 50th anniversary of his death. An album of Thomas reading of some of his famous works could scoop the Best Historical Album award in the ceremony on 23 February. (...) The Caedmon collection is an 11-CD set published by Harper Collins. It includes Thomas reading his play _Under Milk Wood_, and "Fern Hill" and "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night." ------------------------------------------------------------------ (further details available at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/2648541.stm ; one should assume that the collection also includes "A Child's Christmas in Wales"?) From MillB at aol.com Sat Jan 11 20:57:04 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:57:04 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Eventually.... Message-ID: <1c4.3462497.2b522570@aol.com> Richard: I hate to be devil's advocate here, but even if Dylan Thomas had taken good care of himself and stayed off the booze and exercised and eaten from the basic food groups everyday, the likelihood of him accepting a grammy at the age of 90 or so is highly unlikely. For males born when he was born (1913? 1914?), the life-expectancy was far below what it is currently, and even now, 90 is not the "average" (even for tea totalers). If it takes 60 or 70 years to achieve fame and fortune for our estate, most of us will be long gone by then. Unless, of course, you're George Burns, who drank and smoked his way nearly to 100. Mill <--tongue in cheek (half-way) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sat Jan 11 21:00:13 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 10:00:13 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030108122851.01bff338@mail.ilstu.edu> <005101c2b754$0aedfce0$bff3fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <13c401c2b9de$59909100$5c864cca@jross3> I've had the dubious pleasure of being criticised by an English prof. as not having the least sense of rhythm. I've been castigated verbally at a conference for never writing about anything but sex (I wish). I've been told that a prominent female writer found my work to be all sound and fury signifying nothing. Only the first was written ... by hand on a standard rejection slip. Oh -- and I forgot to mention the hysterical, hand-written rejection I received from a well-known and connected academic after one of his underlings had intimated accepting my work for publication in the academic journal in question. As much of it as I can remember (I burnt it) questioned my intelligence, industry and understanding of the craft without actually calling my work bullshit. sigh. Alas, no reviewer has given my work much attention. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 4:25 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions > > Ron Silliman just wrote me with a welcome to the club of those who've > > received mean reviews (I am referring to a review in a student magazine), > > said it's part of the rites of passage for poets etc etc. > > I agree, and am chagrinned to admit I've still not yet had my first negative > review. I think negative reviews are much harder to get than positive ones. > Every poet has a friend or two who'll support him with a review. It's > harder to get an enemy who'll consider you worth demolishing. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 11 21:09:28 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 21:09:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030108122851.01bff338@mail.ilstu.edu> <005101c2b754$0aedfce0$bff3fea9@j1c1k6> <13c401c2b9de$59909100$5c864cca@jross3> Message-ID: <027e01c2b9df$a3c5f3e0$0bb0fea9@j1c1k6> > I've had the dubious pleasure of being criticised by an English prof. as not > having the least sense of rhythm. And without that, you can't be a poet, right! Great! I've never been shot down so stupidly. > I've been castigated verbally at a > conference for never writing about anything but sex (I wish). I've been > told that a prominent female writer found my work to be all sound and fury > signifying nothing. Only the first was written ... by hand on a standard > rejection slip. > > Oh -- and I forgot to mention the hysterical, hand-written rejection I > received from a well-known and connected academic after one of his > underlings had intimated accepting my work for publication in the academic > journal in question. As much of it as I can remember (I burnt it) > questioned my intelligence, industry and understanding of the craft without > actually calling my work bullshit. sigh. > > Alas, no reviewer has given my work much attention. > > Zan So, we're soulmates, after all, Zan! Or at least poetry-siblings. . . . --Bob G. From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Jan 12 23:57:12 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 12:57:12 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paulin -- On Being Dealt the Anti-Semitic Card References: Message-ID: <009f01c2bac0$3d6b6210$47864cca@jross3> I could have lived my entire life without reading this ... But since I haven't, no thanks to you, I intend to ignore it as much as possible so as to avoid being offensive to ANYONE!! Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Kelly" To: Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 10:09 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Paulin -- On Being Dealt the Anti-Semitic Card On Being Dealt the Anti-Semitic Card Tom Paulin Wednesday January 8, 2003 The Guardian ................................ From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Jan 13 00:18:16 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:18:16 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] What makes it difficult to talk about what makes writing (new member, Gary) References: <1be.1aea1bc8.2b51bc03@aol.com> Message-ID: <018401c2bac3$2eaf1390$47864cca@jross3> Subjectivity is merely threatening to the object of same ... if they gave a rat's arse ... Up the Academy Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 2:27 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] What makes it difficult to talk about what makes writing (new member, Gary) > > is the very difference in every writer. Some writers complete > an assignment answering every question to the satisfaction of the > regulations of the assignment. Others don't even come close but > may learn more in their floundering. Yet their punctuation and > grammar could be atrocious. How do you defend such a paper? > I don't know. I'd like to believe good intent wins over a mastery of > structure and technique. And I'd like to believe that the mastery > of structure and technique is only a concealment of perhaps > more profound problems as a writer. But I can't, shouldn't > assume that. This is what makes the judgement of good writing > dangerously subjective. > > > -gary thompson > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Jan 13 00:31:07 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 13:31:07 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030108122851.01bff338@mail.ilstu.edu> <005101c2b754$0aedfce0$bff3fea9@j1c1k6> <13c401c2b9de$59909100$5c864cca@jross3> <027e01c2b9df$a3c5f3e0$0bb0fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <01c601c2bac4$fa0b34f0$47864cca@jross3> Ah! So there is some common ground ... Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions > > > > I've had the dubious pleasure of being criticised by an English prof. as > not > > having the least sense of rhythm. > > And without that, you can't be a poet, right! Great! I've never been shot > down so stupidly. > > > I've been castigated verbally at a > > conference for never writing about anything but sex (I wish). I've been > > told that a prominent female writer found my work to be all sound and fury > > signifying nothing. Only the first was written ... by hand on a standard > > rejection slip. > > > > Oh -- and I forgot to mention the hysterical, hand-written rejection I > > received from a well-known and connected academic after one of his > > underlings had intimated accepting my work for publication in the academic > > journal in question. As much of it as I can remember (I burnt it) > > questioned my intelligence, industry and understanding of the craft > without > > actually calling my work bullshit. sigh. > > > > Alas, no reviewer has given my work much attention. > > > > Zan > > So, we're soulmates, after all, Zan! Or at least poetry-siblings. . . . > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 13 06:07:20 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:07:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Anthology of Dismal Reviews -- Call for Submissions References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030108122851.01bff338@mail.ilstu.edu> <005101c2b754$0aedfce0$bff3fea9@j1c1k6> <13c401c2b9de$59909100$5c864cca@jross3> <027e01c2b9df$a3c5f3e0$0bb0fea9@j1c1k6> <01c601c2bac4$fa0b34f0$47864cca@jross3> Message-ID: <002d01c2baf3$f16a73e0$feb2fea9@j1c1k6> > Ah! So there is some common ground ... > > Zan We must think of it as a challenge we can overcome! --Bob G. *** > > > I've had the dubious pleasure of being criticised by an English prof. as > > not > > > having the least sense of rhythm. > > > > And without that, you can't be a poet, right! Great! I've never been > shot > > down so stupidly. > > > > > I've been castigated verbally at a > > > conference for never writing about anything but sex (I wish). I've been > > > told that a prominent female writer found my work to be all sound and > fury > > > signifying nothing. Only the first was written ... by hand on a > standard > > > rejection slip. > > > > > > Oh -- and I forgot to mention the hysterical, hand-written rejection I > > > received from a well-known and connected academic after one of his > > > underlings had intimated accepting my work for publication in the > academic > > > journal in question. As much of it as I can remember (I burnt it) > > > questioned my intelligence, industry and understanding of the craft > > without > > > actually calling my work bullshit. sigh. > > > > > > Alas, no reviewer has given my work much attention. > > > > > > Zan > > > > So, we're soulmates, after all, Zan! Or at least poetry-siblings. . . . > > > > --Bob G. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon Jan 13 06:54:47 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 06:54:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Currently on the Blog Message-ID: <001901c2bafa$9692d230$e20ff243@Dell> Murat Nemet-Nejat on Jean-Luc Godard & writing Alan Davies Taking surrealism in two directions at once Linebreaks & reading: Reading Raworth & Zukofsky A note on my work & a reading at Temple Rachel Blau DuPlessis' Drafts & George Stanley's Vancouver - Poems illuminating each other The problem of "Frida" - Misrepresenting painting & poetry in contemporary cinema The politics of Raworth's poetry Survival: Tom Raworth's poetry of the '80s & '90s The renaissance of Rene Ricard Christian Bok's String Variables: Parallel poems (to the letter) http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ 10,000 visitors in 2002 From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Jan 13 11:19:21 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:19:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Yale judge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Jan 14 22:54:11 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2003 21:54:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Critics Circle Message-ID: In poetry, the nominees are Major Jackson's ''Leaving Saturn,'' B.H. Fairchild, ''Early Occult Memory Systems of the Lower Midwest,'' Harryette Mullen, ''Sleeping With the Dictionary,'' Sharon Olds, ''The Unswept Room'' and Adam Zagajewski, ''Without End: New and Selected Poems.'' --from the Associated Press -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Jan 15 00:17:36 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 00:17:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Critics Circle References: Message-ID: <000801c2bc55$6b2bcd70$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> I still love Fairchild's title...I don't care what anyone else says. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 10:54 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Critics Circle > In poetry, the nominees are Major Jackson's ''Leaving Saturn,'' B.H. > Fairchild, ''Early Occult Memory Systems of the Lower Midwest,'' Harryette > Mullen, ''Sleeping With the Dictionary,'' Sharon Olds, ''The Unswept Room'' > and Adam Zagajewski, ''Without End: New and Selected Poems.'' > > --from the Associated Press > -- > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 15 09:07:23 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 06:07:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Carl Dennis, "Poetry as Persuasion" In-Reply-To: <000801c2bc55$6b2bcd70$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <20030115140723.6287.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> Has anyone had a chance to look at Carl Dennis's *Poetry as Persuasion*? I'm teaching a composition course this semester entitled "Reading Literature and Writing Arguments," and Dennis's book seems like a good resource. I thought that approaching imaginative literature as persuasive appeals was something new, something I'd dreamed up. Alas, I forgot that immortal line from Ecclesiastes--"there is nothing new under the sun." Has anyone else used this approach? In my class, we consider the rhetorical appeals evident in things like poems, pieces of short fiction, films, and drama. Today, we looked at William Blake's "London," and discussed the appeals to ethos and pathos in the poem. One student noted the speaker's distance from the suffering around him, suggesting that this distance hurts the speaker's credibility. Any comments? Thanks, Jeff Newberry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jan 15 11:59:00 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 11:59:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Carl Dennis, "Poetry as Persuasion" Message-ID: <163.1a2ad9dd.2b56ed54@cs.com> In a message dated 1/15/2003 8:08:12 AM Central Standard Time, jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: > I thought that approaching imaginative literature as persuasive appeals was > something new, something I'd dreamed up. Alas, I forgot that immortal line > from Ecclesiastes--"there is nothing new under the sun." Has anyone else > used this approach? In my class, we consider the rhetorical appeals > evident in things like poems, pieces of short fiction, films, and drama. > Today, we looked at William Blake's "London," and discussed the appeals to > ethos and pathos in the poem. One student noted the speaker's distance > from the suffering around him, suggesting that this distance hurts the > speaker's credibility. > > Classical rhetoric offers a wonderful way to approach poems. I don't know if Corbett's great textbook Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student is still in print, but I recommend it for all poets and teachers. One way to approach love poetry is to look at the old "I'm OK, You're OK" paradigm from the transactional analysis of the 70s, the variations of which can help to describe the tension between persona and auditor in lots of poems. Obviously, most famous love lyrics, especially those of Donne and the Cavaliers, involve the gentle art of persuasion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 15 17:09:31 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 17:09:31 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Yale judge Message-ID: In a message dated 1/13/03 11:20:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > From the Poets and Writers web site (pw.org): > Louise Gluck has been chosen as the first female judge ever for the Yale > Series of Younger Poets. She will choose books from the next competition > (deadline Jan. 31) to the year 2008. Merwin sure didn't last long enough to establish his imprimatur... And the first year he judged the prize he decided that no ms.was worthy. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jan 16 08:40:01 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:40:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] GREEN INTEGER UPDATE Message-ID: <1cc.1173c2.2b581031@aol.com> GREEN INTEGER UPDATE January 13, 2003 Green Integer has published several new titles. Our most recent new publications are listed below. Individuals can purchase these books, for a limited time, for a 20% discount. Please send your orders, with name and address, to lilycat at sbcglobal.net and we will ship the book(s) and bill you. For a complete listing of our titles, please visit our website at www.greeninteger.com. SAND by Dennis Phillips In this new collection, his ninth book of poetry, noted Los Angeles poet Dennis Phillips explores the temporal--an ever-shifting world in which meaning, like a palm full of sand, is made up of small particles which come together in ever-shifting patterns to make meaning. "Who walks the boundaries?" Phillips asks the reader, challenging him or her to make sense of that ever-changing reality. Author of Credence, Study for the Ideal City, A World, Arena and other books, Dennis Phillips teaches at Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, where he lives with his wife and child. The precision of any word or the way we use it, here in the opposite of entry. I.e. pronouns torture us because their proxies, they're points of contact; for example rumors, spying, breeches of trust. Or here, in the correal- tive of reason, we may agree on a concept, a production of histories. We find the recent blurry. Nor can grammar aid their procession, the prodigious flight, the diminutive call. Green Integer 67 184 pages, $10.95 THE PERIPHERAL SPACE OF PHOTOGRAPHY by Murat Nemet-Nejat This profound, short essay by poet and translator Murat Nemet-Nejat explores what separates photography from other artistic media. Nemet-Nejat argues that photographic seeing is not a plastic experience, but a meditative one built around a relationship between image and words. Through a critique of photographs in the Metropolitan Museum of Art exhibition of 1993, he shows repeatedly how the focal points in photographs are often their mistakes (blurs, over or under exposures, etc.) and, spatially, exist in their peripheries. Among Murat Nemet-Nejat's works are the essay Questions of Accent and the poems Turkish Voices. He also translated Turkish poet Ece Ayhan's A Blind Cat Black and Orthodoxies, published by Sun & Moon Press. Nemet-Nejat lives in Hoboken, New Jersey. Green Integer 76 112 pages, $9.95 SOUND / (system) by Stephen Ratcliffe Written between June 1, 1991 and January 31, 1992 the poems of this volume employed the letters of Henry James as a source in order to explore the poetics of narrative, sound as thought and the shape of words as meaning. The series of poems functions almost as a poem-as-novel investigating the phenomena of poetic sound, of the sounds we hear, those we don't, the meanings that those sounds do or do not convey, and the lyricism of poetry--where what we hear is often blurred, misunderstood, and confused as in everyday experience. Stephen Ratcliffe lives in Bolinas, California, and teaches at Mills College in Oakland. He is the author of over 16 books of poetry and two books of criticism, including Present Tense, Sculpture, and Listening to Reading. Green Integer 78 256 pages, $12.95 DEMONOLOGY by Kelly Stuart Playwright Kelly Stuart's hilarious atire of the male-dominated workplace is set in a baby formula company, where the men even determine the feeding and care of infants. But when Gina, a mother who breast-feeds, joins the staff, things begin to change: the company falls under political sabotage, orders are rerouted, and the building is shut down. As the play comes to its climax, the boss, Joe De Martini, suspects either himself or Gina of madness as he sees devil shadows and child assassins, and Gina's body is possessed by an ancient Greek spirit. Depsite these fantastic circumstances, Stuart concludes on a realistic note, which jars the reader into rreevaluating the gender-based power structure and the illusions that support it. First presented at the Padua Hills Playwrights Festival near Los Angeles, this play was later performed at the Playwrights Horizons in New York and the Mark Taper Forum in Los Angeles. In 1996 it was awarded the America Award for Drama for the best play of the year. Kelly Stuart, who recently moved from Los Angeles to New York, is the author of several plays, including A Shoe is Not a Question, The Square Root of Terrible, The Life of Spiders, The Peacock Screams When the Lights Go Out, Shoot, Furious Blood, and The Whoman Who Tried to Shout Underwater. Green Integer 71 76 pages $9.95 From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jan 16 11:52:43 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 10:52:43 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry in Motion Message-ID: Poetry in Motion British poet Andrew Motion launches a modest anti-anti-Saddam salvo. by J. Bottum 01/16/2003 12:00:00 AM J. Bottum, Books & Arts editor YOU MAY WANT TO DROWN England's poet laureate in his butt of sack when you read his new quatrain "Causa Belli." Not that Andrew Motion is a particularly bad example of his species: Between Dryden in 1670 and Wordsworth in 1843, the laureateship went to Thomas Shadwell, Nahum Tate, Nicholas Rowe, Laurence Eusden, Colley Cibber, William Whitehead, Thomas Warton, Henry Pye, and Robert Southey. If you've actually read poems by more than two people on that list, you're spending far too much time in libraries. Go outside. Look at the beautiful trees. Think about how human beings once cut down trees like those to make paper on which to publish Shadwell and Cibber. Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a library shelf. Actually, there may be something comforting in the fact that Andrew Motion is jostling for his place among the Shadwellians--a sort of comforting continuity of mediocrity in our ever-tumbling world. Here is Motion's "Causa Belli" in its entirety: They read good books, and quote, but never learn a language other than the scream of rocket-burn. Our straighter talk is drowned but ironclad: elections, money, empire, oil and Dad. All the proper elements are present in this anti-war screech--and in astonishingly short compass. You've got to be good at laureating to get this much in these few words. There's the self-congratulatory Latin title, to signal that the author could have given us a Horatian ode, if he had wanted. There's the fashionable position on a public issue. There's the unspecifying reference to the "good books" that "they" have read--and don't you wonder what books those may be (Shakespeare's plays? Milton's poems? Burke's speeches? Motion's "Salt Water"? Shadwell's "Squire of Alsatia"?); the point here is that we all know what good books are, even if we can't name them precisely, and anyway, we learned from those books, while "they" can merely quote them. I can't say I know quite what "the scream of rocket-burn" is. The scream of people burned by a rocket landing or the screaming noise a rocket makes when it takes off? Motion being English, I suspect the "drowned but ironclad" is not actually a reference to the Merrimac and Monitor. But how does "straighter talk" get either drowned or ironclad? The metaphors seem to have gotten a little tangled. Anyway, the point is clear. The cause of war is "elections, money, empire, oil and Dad." (Those seem more like multiple causes of war to me, but then the title would have to be "Causae Belli," and who wants to get all Latiny pedantic at this point?) What's remarkable here is Motion's ability to pack so much in so short a list. In one line you can tally up all the necessary elements. See the hatred of a politics decided by actual voters instead of the fashionable elites ("elections" as a cause of war)? See the superiority to bourgeois pursuits by we who are not they ("money")? "Oil" in this context is a little redundant, mostly metonymy for money, but there's enough of a touch of trendy environmentalism to let it pass. The "empire" cause is a nice touch. Why it's so old-fashioned. Can we really march in opposition to the Empire again? O Lord, if only "they" would quote Kipling. Think what we could do if George Bush, returning Kipling's compliment to Theodore Roosevelt, were to send Tony Blair a copy of "The White Man's Burden." Then there's the cause of "Dad." I took this at first to be a Larkinesque touch, reaching back through the tangle of parenting to find a psychological cause of things--and thus connecting to the "empire" cause, read now as the British rather than the American empire. But my wife convinced me I was giving Motion too much credit: The Dad here is only George Bush senior, whose experiences in the Gulf War the son is doomed to relive. We are exempt from psychologizing; they are not. Now, if that's right, then "Causa Belli" reverses direction in a truly surprising way. It's one thing to say that "they" read and quote good books. Motion was willing--in that judicious tone of fairness with which all really vicious attacks begin--to admit that the hawks are well educated (with the caveat that they never learned anything from their reading except a psychotic desire to fire off big rockets). But with the "Dad" cause, George Bush is necessarily among the "they." Ah, me: England's poet laureate says George Bush reads good books and quotes from them, too. I'm sure Motion didn't mean it. He's far too worthy a successor to Shadwell to mean much of anything. J. Bottum is Books & Arts editor of The Weekly Standard. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From roger at chass.utoronto.ca Thu Jan 16 16:45:02 2003 From: roger at chass.utoronto.ca (Roger Greenwald) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 16:45:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. Ads Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030116163607.0263cc88@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> In the digest I received just now, there is a message that starts this way: ---- Message: 2 From: JforJames at aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:40:01 EST To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] GREEN INTEGER UPDATE Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu GREEN INTEGER UPDATE January 13, 2003 Green Integer has published several new titles. Our most recent new publications are listed below. Individuals can purchase these books, for a limited time, for a 20% discount. Please send your orders, with name and address, to lilycat at sbcglobal.net and we will ship the book(s) and bill you. For a complete listing of our titles, please visit our website at www.greeninteger.com. ----- After the above, a several paragraphs of copy are pasted in (one for each book). I think it's fine for people on the list to announce their new books and their readings (briefly). I _suppose_ I don't mind if publishers do the same, though it may be worth wondering what the digest would look like if every press did so. But it seems to me that mention of the poets' names and reference to a web site ought to be enough. Green Integer not only has a web site, it has a mailing list that any reader who is interested can add his or her name to. Thereafter, you will receive all their announcements. How do others feel about this? Roger Greenwald roger at chass.utoronto.ca From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jan 16 17:15:40 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:15:40 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] royal poetry reading Message-ID: <2b.363cd024.2b58890c@aol.com> Japanese emperor prays for country's continued progress in royal poetry reading Wed Jan 15,12:29 AM ET By NATALIE OBIKO PEARSON, Associated Press Writer TOKYO - Japan observed one of its most venerable traditions Wednesday ? the annual poetry reading at the Imperial Palace. Emperor Akihito and Empress Michiko presided over the ancient New Year's ritual, which was held at the palace's austere "Pine Hall" and broadcast live nationwide. This year's poems, written by the royals and amateurs, were based on the theme "town." All followed the strict, 31-syllable "tanka" form dating back to the seventh century and many reflected the strong connection Japanese feel toward their hometowns, where family traditions struggle to coexist with the country's rapid industrialization. Getting one's poem read is a great honor. Only 10 poems from the public were selected from 24,268 entries, with 256 coming from 30 foreign countries as distant as Brazil, Argentina and Canada. The recital began with a work by Fumiya Suzuki, a high school sophomore from the western city of Osaka, and ended with a poem by 85-year-old Hajime Maruyama, who represented a generation of Japanese born during the reign of Akihito's grandfather. The royal couple were flanked by other members of the imperial family ? the men on one side in black suits and the women on the other in brightly colored dresses and matching hats. No one actually recited their own poems. Instead, seven expert readers intoned the poems in the long, drawn out vowels characteristic of the readings. The ceremony culminated with the reading of the emperor's verse, transcribed onto a Japanese paper scroll and presented to him in a lacquered box, before being recited three times by the readers. "Over and over Traveling through the country, I well remember That with every passing year The towns looked ever better." In a statement, the emperor said it was inspired by the progress he has seen during his travels throughout the country in the 50 years since the end of World War II. "Bearing in mind the great efforts the people have made during the past 50 years in building the Japan of today, I hope that we can unite in utmost efforts to pursue a better future," Akihito said. The recital will be Akihito's last public appearance for the immediate future ? he enters hospital Thursday to undergo an operation for prostate cancer (news - web sites) and his son, also in attendance at the recital, will temporarily take over his duties until he recovers. Next year's recital theme will be "happiness." From CAConrad9 at aol.com Thu Jan 16 18:47:40 2003 From: CAConrad9 at aol.com (CAConrad9 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 18:47:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. Ads Message-ID: <38F3E0A4.18A167BE.01F36A84@aol.com> Roger, well i'd say it's very important that we share what books we're reading. reading is vital to writing poetry! PUTS us in that very special pitch in the brain, very same place where the writing we do comes out. thank you for the Green Integer website. whenever i see one of their book spines (they're rather small) i always want to pick it up. many good things in Integer books. i'm really liking WALTZING MATILDA by Alice Notley, this is new from Faux Press. very good book, a composite of some earlier work that has been out of print for some time. also like very much MILLION POEMS JOURNAL by Jordan Davis, also a new-ish Faux Press title. there's some magic in here that will curl the senses! amazing MARVELOUS things being written these days! wouldn't trade this time period for poetry with any other! more later, CAConrad "This is a good world... And war shall fail." --Kenneth Patchen From CAConrad9 at aol.com Thu Jan 16 18:55:25 2003 From: CAConrad9 at aol.com (CAConrad9 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 18:55:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. Ads FAUX PRESS WEBSITE Message-ID: <2F1B26A2.69DADC1B.01F36A84@aol.com> FAUX PRESS POETRY BOOKS http://www.fauxpress.com "I believe in compulsory cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they killed there would be on more war." --Abbie Hoffman "This is a good world... And war shall fail." --Kenneth Patchen From themodpoet at yahoo.com Fri Jan 17 12:48:26 2003 From: themodpoet at yahoo.com (Lonnie Lopez) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 09:48:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Commercialization of New Poetry List In-Reply-To: <20030117170102.03924100DD@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20030117174826.56719.qmail@web40208.mail.yahoo.com> I completely agree. This list is becoming more and more a commercial. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jan 17 13:37:08 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:37:08 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. Ads Message-ID: <8f.28214120.2b59a754@aol.com> Roger, that Green Integer announcement was sent by me to the list. (Note: My only relationship to Green Integer is that I own a good number of their lovely little books.) I could have edited the announcement a bit...but as a matter of course I usually just cut, paste and send. Although we all need to be considerate regarding length & appropriateness (poetry-related) of our announcements (be they for publications, readings, conferences, calls for submission, etc.), I do welcome them to this list. For two reasons: (1) to support poetry publishers in our own small way by giving them eyeball access to a good number of potential readers/buyers; and (2), the information (content) can sometimes lead to the raveling of a new discussion thread. In particular, I'd encourage those drafting these announcements to add a sample poem or two. I'm eager to hear what others have to say about your complaint, because I've never felt overwhelmed by either the volume or the length of the publication announcements on this list. I certainly don't want to them to dominate the list or to drown out discussion, which is the list's primary reason for being. Finnegan From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Fri Jan 17 13:49:42 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 13:49:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. Ads Message-ID: <47C63A55.11F29E1B.0B0E6811@aol.com> Good grief. We're poets, aren't we? Hard, in my mind, to equate poetry-related events (readings, books, ms calls, whatever), to mere advertising. These are fundamental pieces of our world, worth celebrating. Jeffrey Levine In a message dated 1/17/2003 1:37:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames writes: > > > Roger, that Green Integer announcement was sent by > me to the list. (Note: My only relationship to Green Integer > is that I own a good number of their lovely little books.) > I could have edited the announcement a bit...but > as a matter of course I usually just cut, paste and send. > Although we all need to be considerate regarding length > & appropriateness (poetry-related) of our announcements > (be they for publications, readings, conferences, calls for > submission, etc.), I do welcome them to this list. For two > reasons: (1) to support poetry publishers in our own small way > by giving them eyeball access to a good number of potential > readers/buyers; and (2), the information (content) can sometimes > lead to the raveling of a new discussion thread. In particular, > I'd encourage those drafting these announcements to add a > sample poem or two. > > I'm eager to hear what others have to say about your complaint, > because I've never felt overwhelmed by either the volume or the > length of the publication announcements on this list. I certainly don't > want to them to dominate the list or to drown out > discussion, which > is the list's primary reason for being. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Jan 17 13:56:08 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 12:56:08 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ad: The Enchanted Loom Message-ID: An essay I've mentioned here before is now out. It's title is "The Enchanted Loom" and it's in the current issue of Southwest Review. Poets and writers who believe in the value of the written word and are dubious about Post-Structuralist criticism of poetry and fiction might want to have a look. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From CAConrad9 at aol.com Fri Jan 17 14:17:34 2003 From: CAConrad9 at aol.com (CAConrad9 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:17:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Commercialization of New Poetry List Message-ID: <4566B649.1B949CFF.01F36A84@aol.com> In a message dated 1/17/2003 12:48:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, themodpoet at yahoo.com writes: > > > I completely agree. This list is becoming more and > more a commercial. > most of the poetics lists have adverts though, for readings, new books, etc. the Buffalo List has plenty of that. but still, we can always make it what we want. we can always shift around it. discover poetry through one another anyway. and besides, i've discovered some pretty FANTASTIC books through these adverts for new books or book signings. tell me a book of poetry you're reading right now that EXCITES you! and what about it makes you write!? more later, CAConrad from the sounds of Philadelphia "I believe in compulsory cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they killed there would be no more war." --Abbie Hoffman "This is a good world... And war shall fail." --Kenneth Patchen From luap at mallasch.com Fri Jan 17 14:22:30 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:22:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. Ads In-Reply-To: <47C63A55.11F29E1B.0B0E6811@aol.com> Message-ID: for sale: baby shoes never used ------ originally heard that Hemingway used that to win a 'bet' on who could write the shortest-short story. I can't for the life of me remember where I read it, though. Just popped in my head because it's almost poetry and an ad at the same time. ;) -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote: > Good grief. We're poets, aren't we? Hard, in my mind, to equate poetry-related events (readings, books, ms calls, whatever), to mere advertising. These are fundamental pieces of our world, worth celebrating. > > Jeffrey Levine > > In a message dated 1/17/2003 1:37:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames writes: > > > > > > > Roger, that Green Integer announcement was sent by > > me to the list. (Note: My only relationship to Green Integer > > is that I own a good number of their lovely little books.) > > I could have edited the announcement a bit...but > > as a matter of course I usually just cut, paste and send. > > Although we all need to be considerate regarding length > > & appropriateness (poetry-related) of our announcements > > (be they for publications, readings, conferences, calls for > > submission, etc.), I do welcome them to this list. For two > > reasons: (1) to support poetry publishers in our own small way > > by giving them eyeball access to a good number of potential > > readers/buyers; and (2), the information (content) can sometimes > > lead to the raveling of a new discussion thread. In particular, > > I'd encourage those drafting these announcements to add a > > sample poem or two. > > > > I'm eager to hear what others have to say about your complaint, > > because I've never felt overwhelmed by either the volume or the > > length of the publication announcements on this list. I certainly don't > > want to them to dominate the list or to drown out > > discussion, which > > is the list's primary reason for being. > > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From luap at mallasch.com Fri Jan 17 14:24:03 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 14:24:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ad: The Enchanted Loom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How much does it cost? just kidding... -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ p.s. I like the idea of putting the Ad: (or maybe even [ad]) into the subject line so that if it does offend someone (doesn't offend me...) they can setup their email client to auto-delete messages with that in the subject line. Just a thought... On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, Paul Lake wrote: > An essay I've mentioned here before is now out. It's title is "The Enchanted > Loom" and it's in the current issue of Southwest Review. Poets and writers > who believe in the value of the written word and are dubious about > Post-Structuralist criticism of poetry and fiction might want to have a > look. > > Paul Lake > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jan 17 15:21:17 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:21:17 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. Ads Message-ID: <164.1a4cc5d2.2b59bfbd@cs.com> In a message dated 1/17/2003 1:30:25 PM Central Standard Time, luap at mallasch.com writes: > > for sale: > baby shoes > never used > > ------ > > originally heard that Hemingway used that to win a 'bet' on who could > write the shortest-short story. I can't for the life of me remember where > I read it, though. > > Just popped in my head because it's almost poetry and an ad at the same > time. ;) > > -kpaul > mallasch.com/mug/ My favorite is: for sale wedding dress size 18 never worn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jan 17 16:08:06 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:08:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. Ads References: <8f.28214120.2b59a754@aol.com> Message-ID: <004801c2be6c$8885a300$d010fea9@j1c1k6> I have no problem with these announcements. I do think they are often less informative than they might be--and over-long. Sample poems would be useful, as would some indication of kind of poetry involved. Which is why a list of schools of poetry would be a good idea. (Sorry, couldn't stop myself.) I can't understand anyone's problem with them. I glance at them and then hit delete when, as is usually the case, I find what is being publicized is of no interest to me. What is so hard about that? --Bob G. > Roger, that Green Integer announcement was sent by > me to the list. (Note: My only relationship to Green Integer > is that I own a good number of their lovely little books.) > I could have edited the announcement a bit...but > as a matter of course I usually just cut, paste and send. > Although we all need to be considerate regarding length > & appropriateness (poetry-related) of our announcements > (be they for publications, readings, conferences, calls for > submission, etc.), I do welcome them to this list. For two > reasons: (1) to support poetry publishers in our own small way > by giving them eyeball access to a good number of potential > readers/buyers; and (2), the information (content) can sometimes > lead to the raveling of a new discussion thread. In particular, > I'd encourage those drafting these announcements to add a > sample poem or two. > > I'm eager to hear what others have to say about your complaint, > because I've never felt overwhelmed by either the volume or the > length of the publication announcements on this list. I certainly don't > want to them to dominate the list or to drown out discussion, which > is the list's primary reason for being. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CAConrad9 at aol.com Fri Jan 17 17:45:14 2003 From: CAConrad9 at aol.com (CAConrad9 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:45:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A SKETCH ON GLOBALIZATION & POETICS Message-ID: <5E9656E7.34D1F445.01F36A84@aol.com> hi there, to all who are interested, below is the URL into Heriberto Yepez's blog. his "13.01.03" entry is titled A SKETCH ON GLOBALIZATION & POETICS you might find interesting. i'm a little annoyed with his opening remarks of the "15.01.03" entry, at the top of the blog, where he says he hopes the "blogs don't become a scene." why should Heriberto get to have a blog and no one else? i'd like to see as many people as possible writing poetry, blogs, creating something, however they want. the only way to truly CHANGE this world is through the FORCES of creation in us all. but besides that, this is a very good blog, especially "13.01.03" notice that on the right side are links to other blogs. Nada Gordon's is very good. here's the way in: http://www.thetijuanabibleofpoetics.blogspot.com more later, CAConrad from the sounds of Philadelphia From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jan 17 18:32:50 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 18:32:50 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry Part I Message-ID: <1d7.36a588.2b59eca2@aol.com> Has anyone else glanced at David Alpaugh's re-hash ("Professionalization of Poetry Part I," in Poets & Writers Jan/Feb) of why there shouldn't be such a thing as an MA/MFA in Poetry Writing. I don't understand why the editors of P&W thought it worthy of printing this wan Can Poetry Matter?. Same old whine: 1) The dangerous growth in the founding of writing programs during 80s & 90s: "Graduate writing programs are certifying professional poets at a rate of 2,000 per year. But to what effect?" (To what effect 200,000 MBAs? I'm making up that number, but a society that churns out business pros in monstrously large numbers should be grateful it still has soul enough left to produce MFAs in Creative Writing, Art, Music, etc.) 2) Why not teach the great lit...and let the writers find their own way: "too often writing graduates emerge from universities sporting only a casual acquaintance with the master poets of their own language and those of world literature." (Read Dante and then write your own Inferno. There's a sure-fire praxis.) 3) They're all writing the same kind of poem: "tempting fledgling poets to mimic the prevailing mode--absorbing mannerisms, limitations, and ephemeral or poetically correct subject matter and concerns." (Again, he asserts this without a whiff of proof. But one might say that throughout literary history, we've aggregated poets by age/era, like "Georgian Poetry," because there were enough similarities in language usage and other concerns.) 4) Po-biz consumes the soul of the artist: "Not only can the poet end up lacking substance that a nonpoetry career allows one to bring to the writing desk; he runs the risk of becoming so bogged down in po-biz that his art can be affected in insidious ways." (Zombie-like the pro poets have given over their "real lives" and now walk the earth in mindless pursuit of publication, tenure-track jobs, and cushy fellowships. Run, before it's too late. You too can be a doctor, lawyer, website designer, chef, etc., and your poetry will be inflected with the human graces of those honorable trades.) 5) Mutual back-scratching among careerist poets: "A poetry profession that increasingly offers publication, honors, and awards almost exclusively to its own, runs the risk of alienating the common reader and diminishing the art it was established to nurture." (That old common reader guy rears his ugly head...but is so easily scared off, poor fellow. And since we've established that 90% of poets teach these days, it should come as no surprise to an author familiar with rudiments of statistical probability, that the vast majority of prizes go to poets that teach.) I eagerly await the stunningly revelations and stupefying assertions of Part II. Finnegan From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Jan 17 18:43:57 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 16:43:57 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] A SKETCH ON GLOBALIZATION & POETICS References: <5E9656E7.34D1F445.01F36A84@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E28953C.A524BB0F@earthlink.net> CAConrad9 at aol.com wrote: > > hi there, to all who are interested, below is the URL into Heriberto Yepez's blog. his "13.01.03" entry is titled A SKETCH ON GLOBALIZATION & POETICS you might find interesting. > > i'm a little annoyed with his opening remarks of the "15.01.03" entry, at the top of the blog, where he says he hopes the "blogs don't become a scene." why should Heriberto get to have a blog and no one else? Yeah, that's kind of like Dubya and WMDs. - Jim 21st Tucson Poetry Festival, April 1 - 6 http://www.tucsonpoetryfestival.org/ 6th Annual Northern Arizona Book Festival, April 11 - 13 http://www.flagstaffcentral.com/bookfest/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Jan 17 19:00:02 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:00:02 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] A SKETCH ON GLOBALIZATION & POETICS References: <5E9656E7.34D1F445.01F36A84@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E289901.2B05CEF7@earthlink.net> He left out: Ethnopoetics as: USP (Unique selling point). - Jim CAConrad9 at aol.com wrote: > > hi there, to all who are interested, below is the URL into Heriberto Yepez's blog. his "13.01.03" entry is titled A SKETCH ON GLOBALIZATION & POETICS you might find interesting. > > i'm a little annoyed with his opening remarks of the "15.01.03" entry, at the top of the blog, where he says he hopes the "blogs don't become a scene." why should Heriberto get to have a blog and no one else? > > i'd like to see as many people as possible writing poetry, blogs, creating something, however they want. the only way to truly CHANGE this world is through the FORCES of creation in us all. > > but besides that, this is a very good blog, especially "13.01.03" > > notice that on the right side are links to other blogs. Nada Gordon's is very good. > > here's the way in: > http://www.thetijuanabibleofpoetics.blogspot.com > > more later, > CAConrad > from the sounds > of Philadelphia > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From luap at mallasch.com Fri Jan 17 19:21:59 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:21:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] A SKETCH ON GLOBALIZATION & POETICS In-Reply-To: <3E28953C.A524BB0F@earthlink.net> Message-ID: you're either with our blog or we won't blogroll you. read my blog, no new wars, i mean taxes... -kpaul SEP - spontaneous email poetics... On Fri, 17 Jan 2003, James Cervantes wrote: > Yeah, that's kind of like Dubya and WMDs. > > - Jim > > 21st Tucson Poetry Festival, April 1 - 6 > http://www.tucsonpoetryfestival.org/ > > 6th Annual Northern Arizona Book Festival, April 11 - 13 > http://www.flagstaffcentral.com/bookfest/index.html > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jan 17 20:00:24 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 20:00:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry Part I References: <1d7.36a588.2b59eca2@aol.com> Message-ID: <00be01c2be8c$fbfdac40$d010fea9@j1c1k6> I think Poetry & Writers likes to publish tripe like that once in a while (a sixties whine against the mainstream of the fifties, albeit still current) to try to seem with it. --Bob G. > Has anyone else glanced at David Alpaugh's re-hash > ("Professionalization of Poetry Part I," in Poets & Writers Jan/Feb) > of why there shouldn't be such a thing as an MA/MFA in Poetry > Writing. I don't understand why the editors of P&W thought it > worthy of printing this wan Can Poetry Matter?. Same old whine: > 1) The dangerous growth in the founding of writing programs > during 80s & 90s: "Graduate writing programs are > certifying professional poets at a rate of 2,000 per year. But to what > effect?" (To what effect 200,000 MBAs? I'm making up that number, > but a society that churns out business pros in monstrously large > numbers should be grateful it still has soul enough left to produce > MFAs in Creative Writing, Art, Music, etc.) > 2) Why not teach the great lit...and let the writers find their own > way: "too often writing graduates emerge from universities sporting > only a casual acquaintance with the master poets of their own > language and those of world literature." (Read Dante and then > write your own Inferno. There's a sure-fire praxis.) > 3) They're all writing the same kind of poem: "tempting fledgling > poets to mimic the prevailing mode--absorbing mannerisms, > limitations, and ephemeral or poetically correct subject matter > and concerns." (Again, he asserts this without a whiff of proof. > But one might say that throughout literary history, we've > aggregated poets by age/era, like "Georgian Poetry," because > there were enough similarities in language usage and other > concerns.) > 4) Po-biz consumes the soul of the artist: "Not only can > the poet end up lacking substance that a nonpoetry career > allows one to bring to the writing desk; he runs the risk of > becoming so bogged down in po-biz that his art can be > affected in insidious ways." (Zombie-like the pro poets have > given over their "real lives" and now walk the earth in mindless > pursuit of publication, tenure-track jobs, and cushy fellowships. > Run, before it's too late. You too can be a doctor, lawyer, > website designer, chef, etc., and your poetry will be inflected > with the human graces of those honorable trades.) > 5) Mutual back-scratching among careerist poets: "A poetry > profession that increasingly offers publication, honors, and > awards almost exclusively to its own, runs the risk of > alienating the common reader and diminishing the art it > was established to nurture." (That old common reader guy > rears his ugly head...but is so easily scared off, poor fellow. > And since we've established that 90% of poets teach these > days, it should come as no surprise to an author familiar > with rudiments of statistical probability, that the vast majority > of prizes go to poets that teach.) > I eagerly await the stunningly revelations and stupefying > assertions of Part II. > Finnegan > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From roger at chass.utoronto.ca Sat Jan 18 07:28:58 2003 From: roger at chass.utoronto.ca (Roger Greenwald) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 07:28:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. ads Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030118070615.02457240@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> Hello again. Thanks for your responses, but it seems that several people missed my point. I was _not_ objecting to the posting of notices about books, readings, and other poetry-related events. Why would I? I appreciate getting these, and I sometimes post my own notices (as you will all soon see!). What I was saying was that there is a difference between (a) announcing a new book by So-and-so and giving a link to a web site about it and (b) pasting in a lot of material that is available on the web site (where, I would hope, sample poems are available). Some publishers have mailing lists. Green Integer is one of them. I am on that mailing list, so it's not as if I'm not interested in the information. But I can choose to get off that mailing list--and any of you can choose to get on it. I wouldn't mind a notice on this list from time to time that reminds people they can get on that mailing list. But I would prefer not to have the full contents of every mailing from Green Integer pasted into a list posting. (I wouldn't go so far as to call this a complaint, James; I stated a preference and asked what others thought.) One reason for my preference is that I am one of those people who read this list in digest form. K. Paul Mallasch's suggestion won't work for us: "p.s. I like the idea of putting the Ad: (or maybe even [ad]) into the subject line so that if it does offend someone (doesn't offend me...) they can setup their email client to auto-delete messages with that in the subject line. Just a thought..." But as I said, I am not "offended" by getting poetry news, including news of publications and readings, on the list. I am not voicing an objection to "commercial" content (if publishing poetry can even be called commercial! ;-) ). I'd just like not to have to scroll past long patches of material that is available elsewhere--and can be available here with one click if a link is pasted in. Copy that is pasted in often gets quoted in multiple replies. That brings me to a final point that I admit few people seem to be concerned with: bandwidth. Believe it or not, the length of every email message (including those that always get sent out in both plaintext and HTML, thanks to Gates's defaults) affects the volume of traffic on the net and therefore its speed at any given monment for large numbers of users. No doubt this factor is minor compared to the downloading of video and mp3 files, but it remains true that bandwidth is a finite resource, and I see no reason not to conserve it, as many people try to conserve paper and water. But this is not a federal case, folks! Maybe if I weren't already receiving Green Integer's frequent mailings, I wouldn't have reacted in quite the same way.... Roger roger at chass.utoronto.ca From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 18 08:43:12 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 08:43:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. ads References: <5.1.1.6.1.20030118070615.02457240@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <008e01c2bef7$8bffec80$4593fea9@j1c1k6> > That brings me to a final point that I admit few people seem > to be concerned with: bandwidth. Believe it or not, the > length of every email message (including those that always get sent > out in both plaintext and HTML, thanks to Gates's defaults) > affects the volume of traffic on the net and therefore its speed > at any given monment for large numbers of users. No doubt this > factor is minor compared to the downloading of video and mp3 files, > but it remains true that bandwidth is a finite resource, > and I see no reason not to conserve it, as many people try to conserve > paper and water. This is a good point that I was not aware of. I reacted against what I (wrongly) thought was just one more authoritarian call for censorship (however implicit). I still prefer inefficient freedom to the best supervised efficiency but would agree that people who post irresponsibly should be criticized. --Bob G. From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Sat Jan 18 12:27:28 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry_Gould at brown.edu) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:27:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalization of Poetry I Message-ID: <200301181727.h0IHRSv14617@perseus.services.brown.edu> I agreed with David Alpaugh for the most part, uncomfortable as his argument was. I think the MFA system promotes an artificial product, the MFA poet & the MFA poem. I think the teaching of writing should more integrated somehow with writing & rhetoric in general, and with the study of literature & the humanities in general; I don't like the notion of "teachers of writing poetry", though I do see the value of visiting poets or poets-in-residence working in conjunction with coursework in literature, composition and rhetoric. I think that composition courses would be better allied with journalism and social science & public policy studies than narrowly with poetry or fiction-writing. In other words there should be an integration between public discourse, the teaching of rhetoric, logic & discursive writing, and the the study of literary composition. Maybe this is happening in some MFA programs. But I think Alpaugh is right in seeing the institutional design of the MFA degree as isolating "creative writing" rather than integrating it with general & professional education. The integrations suggested here might encourage the teachers & students of literary history and poetic technique to differentiate their specific resources & traditions in a more thorough, exacting way. I know it's risky for one who has not experienced the MFA system to cast blame. But I'm not focusing on the positive aspects of MFA programs here; I'll leave that for others. Henry From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 18 13:03:25 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 13:03:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Master Classes with PAUL HOOVER and MARILYN HACKER Message-ID: <60.2c19ac8c.2b5af0ed@aol.com> It's not too late! We're still accepting applications for upcoming Master Classes with PAUL HOOVER and MARILYN HACKER. Master Classes at Poets House offer advanced writers of poetry an opportunity to work intensively with some of the most respected poets of our time. _________________________________________________ Paul Hoover Saturday, March 15, 1pm-6pm Sunday, March 16, 9:30am-1pm $250, Space is limited Applications are due by Monday, January 27 Widely known as the editor of *Postmodern American Poetry: A Norton Anthology* and the literary magazine *New American Writing*, Paul Hoover is the author of nine poetry collections, including *Totem and Shadow: New & Selected Poems*, and most recently *Rehearsal in Black and Winter*. His book of literary essays, *Fables of Representation*, is forthcoming in the University of Michigan Press "Poets on Poetry" series. _________________________________________________ Marilyn Hacker Saturday, March 22, 1pm-6pm Sunday, March 23, 10am-1:30pm $250, Space is limited Applications are due by Monday, January 27 Marilyn Hacker is the author of nine books, including *Winter Numbers*, *Selected Poems*, the verse novel *Love, Death and the Changing of the Seasons*, and *Squares and Courtyards*. She has also translated *A Long-Gone Sun* by Claire Malroux and *Here There Was Once a Country* by V?nus Khoury-Ghata. *She Says*, another translated collection of V?nus Khoury-Ghata's poems, and *Desesperanto*, a collection of Hacker's own poems, are being published this year. _______________________________________________ To Apply: Applications consist of three poems and a cover sheet with contact information for the applicant. Application materials will not be returned. Tuition fees due upon acceptance. Please send your applications to: Poets House 72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor New York, NY 10012 You may also email it to: molly at poetshouse.org PLEASE DO NOT EMAIL YOUR WORK AS AN ATTACHMENT Simply include your poems and contact info in the body of the plain text message. Thank you! _________________________________________________ From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 18 13:10:34 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 13:10:34 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Special Metrical Issue of Salt Message-ID: <3e.2aafe213.2b5af29a@aol.com> Call for Contributions for a Special Metrical Issue of Salt Edited by Annie Finch and John Kinsella Poems, Essays and Reviews All meters welcome Send submissions (no attachments please) by email with brief bio to Annie Finch Submission Period: Jan. 15-30, 2003 Aug. 15 - Sept.15, 2003 Salt is a print journal with a website at: http://www.saltpublishing.com/journals.html From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jan 18 17:29:22 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 17:29:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalization of Poetry I Message-ID: <177.1510f58c.2b5b2f42@aol.com> In a message dated 1/18/03 12:28:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes: > I think the teaching of writing should more integrated somehow with writing & > rhetoric in general, and with the study of literature & the humanities in > general; I don't like the notion of "teachers of writing poetry" Henry, ignoring for a moment what is the best way to teach someone how to write poetry, I think poets create this mythos of specialness, of being somehow outside of or above any of the other arts. What they have is a gift or talents hard-won by diligent study of past masters, and it can't be imparted in a classroom setting. But there are techniques. Music, sculpture, film-making, acting, photography, fiction writing, etc., all can be taught. And there is value in working with others engaged in making the same kind of art. I don't hold a MFAin Poetry Writing, but I know more than few people who do (many of whom never went into teaching as a career, either by choice or circumstance.) My experience is that these people have not been harmed by spending 2-3 years writing poetry, in workshops, meeting with other student-poets and the mentor/staff poets of their programs. As for those MFAs who do teach, they seem, as a whole, engaged, interested, well-read (including being versed in the many works of what Alpaugh calls "the master poets."). Many who study literature, rather than writing, will often specialize to such a degree that they can't speak any more intelligently about authors outside their subject areas, Elizabethan Drama/Modern French Poetry/ Structuralist Crit/Fill in the Blank, than you or I or the average MFA in Poetry Writing. I don't buy the argument that not specializing in lit somehow has damaged the poet-in-process's chances of succeeding. As for Alpaugh's other myth, that taking a career outside of teaching is the better course for the poet; well, my own experience as an insurance professional isn't going to make me a poet of the standing of a Wallace Stevens. (Though it would be lovely to think so.) It's self-evidently true that getting a MFA in Poetry Writing isn't going to make one a superior or well-thought-of poet. But to assert there is harm in taking an MA/MRA degree in Poetry requires a modicum of proof... Alpaugh and others before him (he cites Gioia's Can Poetry Matter? and his piece is nothing more than cheap knock-off of the unsubstantiated points put forth in that famous piece) offer only opinion, and not even opinion backed with a few anecdotal scraps of evidence. It's just as simple (or simple-minded) to state: The quality of the state of the art of poetry has made a quantum leap forward as a result of the advent of the MFA in Poetry Writing. But then mustn't I prove that assertion...or can I just get away with saying it? Finnegan From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Sat Jan 18 23:07:25 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry_Gould at brown.edu) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 23:07:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Prof of Po I Message-ID: <200301190407.h0J47Pv06812@perseus.services.brown.edu> Finn, but what if we're not talking here in terms of the personal success of the individual would-be poet, but about the state of writing and literature in general? That was what I was referring to in the comments about integrating the teaching of poetry writing with the teaching of writing in general and the study of literature in general. Furthermore, even if you have logic & common sense & even decency on your side of this debate... I still don't buy it. As a musician I understand the excitement & gusto of returning to playing after being away from it for a while. I think of poetry as an extremely special experience. I know others look at it quite differently. But Alpaugh said something about this which struck a chord with me. Yes, it's a complex art which requires practice, study, & teaching to understand & develop. Yet if it becomes a craft it's ruined. How do we deal with this paradox? I don't know. Maybe we don't deal with it at all. Poetry is the sacred beast, poetry is the center outside the circumference of the walls. Poetry must be learned ("the scholar's art") but it can't be taught. Henry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Jan 19 04:08:33 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:08:33 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. Ads References: <5.1.1.6.1.20030116163607.0263cc88@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <00d801c2bf9a$58cddb30$7e864cca@jross3> Well, Roger, my feeling is if you aren't interested, delete the mail. I for one appreciate Jim's passing on information. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Greenwald" To: Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 5:45 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. Ads > > In the digest I received just now, there > is a message that starts this way: > > ---- > > Message: 2 > From: JforJames at aol.com > Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 08:40:01 EST > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] GREEN INTEGER UPDATE > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > GREEN INTEGER UPDATE January 13, 2003 > > Green Integer has published several new titles. Our most recent new > publications > are listed below. Individuals can purchase these books, for a limited > time, for a 20% > discount. Please send your orders, with name and address, to > lilycat at sbcglobal.net > and we will ship the book(s) and bill you. For a complete listing of our > titles, please > visit our website at www.greeninteger.com. > > ----- > > After the above, a several paragraphs of copy are pasted > in (one for each book). > > I think it's fine for people on the list to announce their new > books and their readings (briefly). I _suppose_ I don't > mind if publishers do the same, though it may be worth wondering > what the digest would look like if every press did so. > > But it seems to me that mention of the poets' names > and reference to a web site ought to be enough. > Green Integer not only has a web site, it has a mailing list > that any reader who is interested can add his or her name to. > Thereafter, you will receive all their announcements. > > How do others feel about this? > > Roger Greenwald > roger at chass.utoronto.ca > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Jan 19 04:19:08 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:19:08 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. Ads FAUX PRESS WEBSITE References: <2F1B26A2.69DADC1B.01F36A84@aol.com> Message-ID: <010001c2bf9b$d35c68c0$7e864cca@jross3> "I believe in compulsory cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they killed there would be on more war." --Abbie Hoffman How about roadkills? I loathe skunk, myself. Seriously, though -- wouldn't it be better to make the government, particularly leaders, eat what is killed? (The Cook, the thief, his wife and her lover) Zan From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Jan 19 04:57:51 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:57:51 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcements vs. ads References: <5.1.1.6.1.20030118070615.02457240@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <020101c2bfa1$3c2988b0$7e864cca@jross3> Quite possibly to that last remark, Roger. But then after your complaints about bandwidth and all, you send out a comparatively long email. Hmmm ... Zan ....... > But this is not a federal case, folks! Maybe if I weren't already > receiving Green Integer's frequent mailings, I wouldn't have > reacted in quite the same way.... > > Roger > roger at chass.utoronto.ca From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Jan 19 05:04:43 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 18:04:43 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Master Classes with PAUL HOOVER and MARILYN HACKER References: <60.2c19ac8c.2b5af0ed@aol.com> Message-ID: <023901c2bfa2$312dfda0$7e864cca@jross3> Saying the same as I did on the WOMPO list, I would love to attend these classes if I lived in North America, but I would never be able to afford to!! So sad ... Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 2:03 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Master Classes with PAUL HOOVER and MARILYN HACKER It's not too late! We're still accepting applications for upcoming Master Classes with PAUL HOOVER and MARILYN HACKER. Master Classes at Poets House offer advanced writers of poetry an opportunity to work intensively with some of the most respected poets of our time. _________________________________________________ Paul Hoover Saturday, March 15, 1pm-6pm Sunday, March 16, 9:30am-1pm $250, Space is limited Applications are due by Monday, January 27 Widely known as the editor of *Postmodern American Poetry: A Norton Anthology* and the literary magazine *New American Writing*, Paul Hoover is the author of nine poetry collections, including *Totem and Shadow: New & Selected Poems*, and most recently *Rehearsal in Black and Winter*. His book of literary essays, *Fables of Representation*, is forthcoming in the University of Michigan Press "Poets on Poetry" series. _________________________________________________ Marilyn Hacker Saturday, March 22, 1pm-6pm Sunday, March 23, 10am-1:30pm $250, Space is limited Applications are due by Monday, January 27 Marilyn Hacker is the author of nine books, including *Winter Numbers*, *Selected Poems*, the verse novel *Love, Death and the Changing of the Seasons*, and *Squares and Courtyards*. She has also translated *A Long-Gone Sun* by Claire Malroux and *Here There Was Once a Country* by V?nus Khoury-Ghata. *She Says*, another translated collection of V?nus Khoury-Ghata's poems, and *Desesperanto*, a collection of Hacker's own poems, are being published this year. _______________________________________________ To Apply: Applications consist of three poems and a cover sheet with contact information for the applicant. Application materials will not be returned. Tuition fees due upon acceptance. Please send your applications to: Poets House 72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor New York, NY 10012 You may also email it to: molly at poetshouse.org PLEASE DO NOT EMAIL YOUR WORK AS AN ATTACHMENT Simply include your poems and contact info in the body of the plain text message. Thank you! _________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Jan 19 05:18:29 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 18:18:29 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalization of Poetry I References: <177.1510f58c.2b5b2f42@aol.com> Message-ID: <026e01c2bfa4$1dd75bf0$7e864cca@jross3> I am and have been a teacher at many levels of the continuum for many years. Poetry is but one subject I have tackled during this time. It can be taught as a craft, but turning it into an art is another story entirely, and involves much of the process James alluded to. Unless you have involved yourself in said programs, it might be good to do so before slinging off at graduates who work their buns off to get the degree (which I do not have, by the way: I'm finishing off a PhD in Cultural Studies; have a BA in English). Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalization of Poetry I > In a message dated 1/18/03 12:28:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, > Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes: > > > I think the teaching of writing should more integrated somehow with writing > & > > rhetoric in general, and with the study of literature & the humanities in > > general; I don't like the notion of "teachers of writing poetry" > > Henry, ignoring for a moment what is the best way to teach someone > how to write poetry, I think poets create this mythos of specialness, > of being somehow outside of or above any of the other arts. What they > have is a gift or talents hard-won by diligent study of past masters, and > it can't be imparted in a classroom setting. But there are techniques. Music, > sculpture, film-making, acting, photography, fiction writing, etc., > all can be taught. And there is value in working with others engaged > in making the same kind of art. > I don't hold a MFAin Poetry Writing, but I know more than few > people who do (many of whom never went into teaching as a career, > either by choice or circumstance.) My experience is that these people > have not been harmed by spending 2-3 years writing poetry, in workshops, > meeting with other student-poets and the mentor/staff poets of their programs. > As for those MFAs who do teach, they seem, as a whole, engaged, interested, > well-read (including being versed in the many works of what Alpaugh calls > "the master poets."). > Many who study literature, rather than writing, will often specialize to > such a degree that they can't speak any more intelligently about authors > outside their subject areas, Elizabethan Drama/Modern French Poetry/ > Structuralist Crit/Fill in the Blank, than you or I or the average MFA in > Poetry Writing. > I don't buy the argument that not specializing in lit somehow has damaged > the poet-in-process's chances of succeeding. As for Alpaugh's other myth, > that taking a career outside of teaching is the better course for the poet; > well, my own experience as an insurance professional isn't going to make > me a poet of the standing of a Wallace Stevens. (Though it would be lovely > to think so.) It's self-evidently true that getting a MFA in Poetry Writing > isn't > going to make one a superior or well-thought-of poet. But to assert there is > harm in taking an MA/MRA degree in Poetry requires a modicum of proof... > Alpaugh and others before him (he cites Gioia's Can Poetry Matter? and > his piece is nothing more than cheap knock-off of the unsubstantiated > points put forth in that famous piece) offer only opinion, and not even > opinion backed with a few anecdotal scraps of evidence. It's just as simple > (or simple-minded) to state: The quality of the state of the art of poetry > has made a quantum leap forward as a result of the advent of the MFA in > Poetry Writing. But then mustn't I prove that assertion...or can I just get > away with saying it? > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Jan 19 05:59:25 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 18:59:25 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Prof of Po I References: <200301190407.h0J47Pv06812@perseus.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <042d01c2bfa9$d7472f20$7e864cca@jross3> Henry G. wrote: > Finn, > but what if we're not talking here in terms of the > personal success of the individual would-be poet, but > about the state of writing and literature in general? Zan writes: If you read James' argument, he deals with all that. Anyway, "the state of writing and literature in general" is no better and no worse than it has always been, even with poetry left out of the equation. Henry G. wrote: > That was what I was referring to in the comments about > integrating the teaching of poetry writing with the > teaching of writing in general and the study of literature > in general. Zan writes: If you examined MFA programs, you'd find this is exactly what goes on. Henry G. wrote: Furthermore, even if you have logic & common sense & even decency on your side of this debate... I still don't buy it. As a musician I understand the excitement & gusto of returning to playing after being away from it for a while. I think of poetry as an extremely special experience. Zan writes: ANY art form is special to the person practicing it, unless the person undervalues what they do well and with ease. (Personally, I enjoy music so much and regard it as extremely special because I have no skill whatsoever in the area.) Henry G. wrote: But Alpaugh said something about this which struck a chord with me. Yes, it's a complex art which requires practice, study, & teaching to understand & develop. Yet if it becomes a craft it's ruined. Zan writes: Harumph to that, Henry! Poetry is a craft AND an art. One is not exclusive of the other. There is no mystery attached to learning poetry as a craft -- it's pretty straightforward, really, as any teacher of same can show you, if you're interested. The real challenge is carrying students over the hump into art. Not all of them make it, but many do, and thank God (or whatever) they do. Henry wrote: How do we deal with this paradox? I don't know. Maybe we don't deal with it at all. Poetry is the sacred beast, poetry is the center outside the circumference of the walls. Poetry must be learned ("the scholar's art") but it can't be taught. Zan writes: Bollocks to that rubbish about poetry being sacred!! There are no "sacred beasts" in writing of any sort. And I say again, the writing of same can and is taught every day all over the world. Some teachers aren't as skillful as others, it's true, but they give it their all. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Jan 19 08:41:52 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 06:41:52 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] signs of life in Arizona Message-ID: <3E2AAB20.7F4BBEE8@earthlink.net> Arizona State University's MFA program has mounted a writers' conference, which makes it the 4th such annual event (if it continues) in the state. It will be interesting to see if it draws a sizeable audience, and if this desert region can support four such events. Our own little writing festival, named "The Living Web," drew an audience in the hundreds this last fall. The Tucson Poetry Festival draws about the same number, as does the Northern Arizona Book Festival. It's also interesting to look at the nature of the different events. We draw mostly students and members of the community - few writers or literary groupies. The Northern Arizona and Tucson festivals draw representatives of all groups. The new ASU conference seems to be cast more in the mold of a mini-AWP and has more of an MFA flavor to it - it's also the most costly. At any rate, you can look for yourself. "Desert Nights, Rising Stars," Arizona State University Writers Conference, March 13 - 15 http://www.asu.edu/clas/english/creativewriting/conference/ 21st Tucson Poetry Festival, April 1 - 6 http://www.tucsonpoetryfestival.org/ 6th Annual Northern Arizona Book Festival, April 11 - 13 http://www.flagstaffcentral.com/bookfest/index.html and, last year's "Living Web" site is still up at http://www.poetserv.com/livweb/livweb.html - ours is the only one held in the fall. - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Jan 19 08:53:07 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 06:53:07 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: signs of life in Arizona Message-ID: <3E2AADC3.249347C6@earthlink.net> I forgot: Arizona Book Festival, April 5 http://www.azbookfestival.org/ whose featured authors this year are Jack Gantos Kent Haruf J.A. Jance Maxine Hong Kingston William Kittredge & Annick Smith E. Annie Proulx Alberto Rios - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Jan 19 09:33:00 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 09:33:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Prof of Po I References: <200301190407.h0J47Pv06812@perseus.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <006901c2bfc7$ab6f7240$51bafea9@j1c1k6> Yet > if (poetry) it becomes a craft it's ruined. How do we deal with > this paradox? I don't know. Maybe we don't deal with it > at all. Poetry is the sacred beast, poetry is the > center outside the circumference of the walls. Poetry > must be learned ("the scholar's art") but it can't be > taught. > > Henry That, I would think is true of everything. What CAN be taught? If I take a woodworking class, will that be enough to make a master carpenter out of me? It seems to me clear that while poetry cannot be taught, the craft of poetry can, so let that be taught. But isn't a main Gioian argument that teaching poetry is DETRIMENTAL? I can't see that. Anyone who comes to write bad poetry because of the way he's been taught the craft of poetry would have come to write bad poetry no matter what, because he plainly can't think for himself, which is essential for any creative artist. --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Jan 19 15:16:12 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 14:16:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry (long) In-Reply-To: <1d7.36a588.2b59eca2@aol.com> Message-ID: Just back from a hard drive meltdown, I've also just finished reading Alpaugh's tired re-hash "The Professionalization of Poetry" in the most recent *Poets & Writers*. Perhaps a man who has just had to re-build and reconfigure several gigabytes of programs & data is just in a particularly cranky mood, but I agree with Jim Finnegan times two. I find the essay a wearisome hodge-podge of familiar complaints that have been better presented elsewhere. This essay has nothing of Dana Gioia's provocative intelligence and practical suggestiveness, or even the rhetorical sheen of Joseph Epstein, to name just two who have contributed to this now-standard genre of complaint against the MFA world. Even for this ragtag genre, Alpaugh's article is unusually devoid of specificity and corroboration. For instance, he paints MFA poets and poetry with a very broad brush as falling prey to timidity, conformism, insularity from "real" life, and so forth--but does he quote a single instance of the poets and poems he is disparaging? No. Does he even explain how the "certified" MFA poet is more susceptible to these flaws than any poet who reads the current journals and hopes to compete in Po-Biz? No. Or, for that matter, does he ever acknowledge that, by definition, the majority of poets in *every* era have fallen prey to the period style, very few of them being John Milton or Emily Dickinson? No. Does he offer any evidence for the standard but still odd claim that those who work with words for a living (as teachers, editors, or whatever) are somehow at a disadvantage as compared to those poets who work in other fields? No. (Interestingly, in making this last point, holding up for admiration the Usual Suspects--Eliot, Stevens, and Williams-- as poets who were not academics, he mentions Eliot's early work in banking but bizarrely ignores his long career in publishing. That would weaken his point about word-work being detrimental to one's poetic art, I suppose.) The essay is a collection of unexamined assumptions, sweeping & dubious generalizations, wobbly logic, non sequiturs, and truisms. What's true in it is very old news, while what's in dispute remains asserted rather than argued, much less proven. Lord knows I think that there are many problems to be described in the MFA world. But such discovery needs to begin by noticing that "the MFA world" is not such a monolith as Alpaugh thinks. For instance, I happen to agree with Alpaugh that in terms of training poets it's educationally questionable to separate the teaching of writing too much from the teaching of literature. That's one reason (among several) that I chose an MFA program with a vigorous "academic" emphasis in addition to its "studio" side; and yes, they do exist. I've always said that I valued my seminars in Milton, the Romantics, or Yeats far more than my grad writing workshops per se. Another reason I chose the MFA program I did was that I wanted to prepare myself to teach what, in fact, I have often taught--courses in literature, not just writing. Which brings me to one final point. Alpaugh's whole essay teeters upon a large internal contradiction. He makes the point that MFA programs in the past couple decades have been churning out graduates at a fierce rate, which is true. Yet he further notes, correctly, that due to the realities of the academic job market, "a huge number of these certified poets will have to find other means of supporting themselves" than the "complete poetry path" of the MFA program professor that he spends the rest of his essay railing against. So there it is in a nutshell: *most* "certified poets" exist, in one way or another, far outside the exalted halls of Iowa, Stanford, or even Guttertrash U's fledgling MFA program. What are they doing? How do they make their living? Obviously, many must be living outside the academic world entirely. It would be interesting to have a study of this, wouldn't it? Of those who are academics, what are *their* circumstances? I daresay it's mostly a life Jorie Graham wouldn't recognize. To judge by what I see at the annual AWP conference, quite a few of us teach at community colleges, commuter schools, state or municipal U's without MFA programs, or, like me, at undergrad colleges without writing tracks. Many others are trapped in Adjunct Hell. Thus, I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read Alpaugh's assertion that the academic world insulates one from the "mundane world," that it "can sequester and shelter young poets, limiting and retarding their experience of the world and commerce with people that are so vital to the health of poetry." Such sentences are never written by people who routinely face classes of 35 in sophomore American Lit MWF, plus two or three freshman comp sections of 25 each TuTh, plus five committees and one ad hoc task force meeting weekly. Or by someone who successfully navigates the tricky waters of academic budgeting, personnel issues, and politics. Or who must deal daily with the messy complexities of students' personal lives. From JaneFraz at aol.com Sun Jan 19 17:17:15 2003 From: JaneFraz at aol.com (JaneFraz at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:17:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] subscribe? Message-ID: <12c.20c5c4eb.2b5c7deb@aol.com> Can someone please send me (or post) the subscription command for this list? Thanks, Jane Frazier From JaneFraz at aol.com Sun Jan 19 17:19:48 2003 From: JaneFraz at aol.com (JaneFraz at aol.com) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 17:19:48 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] subscribe? Message-ID: <170.196dfb0e.2b5c7e84@aol.com> Sorry, actually I should have asked for the subscription address. Jane Frazier From trbell at comcast.net Sun Jan 19 21:31:45 2003 From: trbell at comcast.net (tombell) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 20:31:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thick? am I, help Message-ID: <006a01c2c02c$14d9b060$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> I'm stuck on this review and could use a suggestion of a poetics book that explores thick description? ideas? tom bell "Thick Description Review of Dourish, Paul, Where the Action Is: the Foundations of Embodied Interaction, Cambridge, MIT, 2001. As someone who always seems to be in the thick 1 of things I eagerly anticipated this book. In some ways my expectations were fulfilled. However, I was disappointed not to receive much guidance through the Action or process of being in the thick of things. Perhaps that was an unrealistic expectation. But let me be a little more specific. Dourish does do an admirable job of weaving together some of the philosophical and cultural underpinnings of this approach to the technological world we live and write in. He also presents a refreshing perspective on a world where newer versions are often pursued for their own sakes. There was little in the way of guidance through the process of finding oneself in the thick of Human Computer Interaction (HCI) specifically or generally as a writer or viewer. There was no "get a new system" or "buy this or that gadget." This is also not a "how-to." This is a book for designers of systems. But there was also little in the way of guidance toward becoming a "being-in-the-world" designer although one could of course turn to the philosophers on this or examine field notes in particular other domains for hints. As I said above this might be an unrealistic expectation here. I do come down heavy here on the issue as I think Dourish is on to something. He just doesn't carry it far enough into the process he examines. As he points out in a slightly different context, "there is a considerable difference between using the real world as a metaphor for interaction and using it as a medium for interaction." What we have here is HCI as a metaphor for interaction I would have liked to hear more from HCI as a medium of interaction. 1. Dourish uses this apt phrase as applied to Malinowski by Geertz who derived it from Ryle but as he points out it is also applicable to approaches in many fields,. He includes here participant observation and the 'tacit' dimension. Try to like something __ |ry tO | Li ke something and the anger will GO From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon Jan 20 05:04:26 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 05:04:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently on Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000c01c2c06b$55950b60$5e0ff243@Dell> Funny formalism: The soft porn poetry of Sophie Hannah & the "new gen" invasion Tom Raworth's Collected Poems: Collected versus complete Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar Updated for the new year Robert Grenier's Sentences: The box that changed poetry Dialect as referent: Robert Grenier's "WINTRY" Meeting Robert Grenier "Knowledge Follows": reading a poem by David Perry Murat Nemet-Nejat on Jean-Luc Godard & writing Alan Davies Taking surrealism in two directions at once Linebreaks & reading: Reading Raworth & Zukofsky http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ 10,000 visitors in 2002 Salt Publishing has just published a new edition of my poem Tjanting with a new forward by Barrett Watten. Available in the U.S., U.K. & Australia. http://saltpublishing.com/1876857196.html Two poems from The Age of Huts have been reissued by Ubu press as e-books: Sunset Debris & 2197 http://www.ubu.com/ubu/ I will be reading in the Temple Writers Series, Temple Gallery, 45 North 2nd Street, Philadelphia, Thursday, February 27th. The reading is at 8:00 PM and is free to the public. From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Mon Jan 20 09:44:18 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 03 09:44:18 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] blogs, etc. Message-ID: <200301201447.h0KElG2r197022@northrelay04.pok.ibm.com> >> i'd like to see as many people as possible writing poetry, blogs, creating somet>> Aldous Huxley: "The real danger is not from the concentrated power of the state but from the diffusion of media voices so cacophonous and filled with trivia that they drown out everything more important for a civil society to function." Richard From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Jan 20 10:19:40 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:19:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Prof of Po I In-Reply-To: <200301190407.h0J47Pv06812@perseus.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3E2BCD3C.19156.9D3CCD@localhost> Henry Gould: >... Yes, [poetry]'s a complex art which requires > practice, study, & teaching to understand & develop. Yet > if it becomes a craft it's ruined. How do we deal with > this paradox? ...<< Is the art of painting ruined if it becomes a craft? No -- and no more is poetry. It seems to me that there has to be a critical mass of craftsmanship and craftsmen before art can occur. I'm no fan of "the MFA poem" when that phrase is used in the way that "Hallmark jingle" is used to demean and dismiss another kind of equally bad work (and I'd argue they are bad in the same broad way -- that such work misses not only the mark of art but the mark of craftsmanship, too, misses the point of the endeavor as a whole), but it does seem to me that it's a good thing to offer to as broad a spectrum of people as possible, the directions to and along the path of poetry, and the tools to travel it. Henry Gould: > I don't know. Maybe we don't deal with it > at all. Poetry is the sacred beast, poetry is the > center outside the circumference of the walls. Poetry > must be learned ("the scholar's art") but it can't be > taught.< Well, this privileges "poetry" as "good poetry", doesn't it? Certainly poetry can be taught -- both appreciation of it and, for most people, a craftsmanlike facility with language, in the same way that nearly anyone can be taught to draw or sing (barring the few in each endeavor who are impaired as with tone-deafness and the like). That one can be taught to draw or sing -- or write poetry -- doesn't mean that one can be taught to be Picasso or Pavarotti -- or Pound. There's a similar problem in the sciences. We say we can teach science but in a profound way science can no more be taught than poetry. There is an essence in scientific work that we expect people to pick up by osmosis without telling them just what it is -- because we can't tell what "science" is any more accurately or articulately than we can tell what "poetry" is. There is a sort of bending-over- backward-to-be-fair-ness about science that teachers hope is learned without being taught: the notion that one must not just do the experiment reproducibly, and posit the hypothesis or theory, but that one must do all one can to show why the experiment might NOT show what one hopes it shows, and answer the questions about why not as well as put forward the reasons one hopes it does. But it is as hard to get people to understand what "good science" is, and to do it, as it is to get people to understand what "good poetry is, and to do it. In each case we're asking the artful practitioners to do something new within the bounds of the understandable without being bound by those bounds while at the same time being bound by them. It's like trying to explain to someone who's never seen a baseball game that the goal of the pitcher is to throw the ball so that it can be hit so that it can't be hit. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Jan 20 10:19:39 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:19:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalization of Poetry I In-Reply-To: <177.1510f58c.2b5b2f42@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E2BCD3B.26029.9D3B73@localhost> Finnegan: > ... It's self-evidently true that getting a MFA in Poetry Writing > isn't going to make one a superior or well-thought-of poet....<< Well, then, what's the point? I think it _is_ the case that what MFA programss purport to do, and what MFA-in-Poetry-Writing students do in fact expect an MFA-in- Poetry-Writing program to do, is make one a superior AND well- thought-of poet -- or at least start one off on the path with the proper tools. If the MFA-in-Poetry-Writing program cannot deliver, to a person who _wants_ to be a superior and well-thought-of poet, at least the tools to be, and directions on the path to becoming, a superior and well- thought-of poet, what is an MFA-in-Poetry-Writing program good for at all? It seems pretty silly to say that an MFA-in-Poetry-Writing program would make one a good carpenter or astronaut or soldier, perhaps, but if one took an MFA-in-Carpentry program, wouldn't you expect that the people who graduated would be superior and well-thought-of carpenters, or at least on the right path with the proper tools? If an MFA-in-Poetry-Writing program does not, or cannot, produce superior and well-thought-of poets, or at least select the talented people who want to be superior and well-thought-of poets and show them the path and give them the tools, what in the world is it good for at all? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Mon Jan 20 11:35:33 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry_Gould at brown.edu) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:35:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: prof of po I Message-ID: <200301201635.h0KGZXl29973@draco.services.brown.edu> Yes, many sensible counter-arguments have been made regarding poetry as craft, the teachability of the craft, the value of creating space for poets & art in academia, the fact that some, maybe many, MFA programs include requirements in general literature as well, do try to integrate "C.W." with education in general. I took some writing classes as an undergrad myself, with gusto, and would not wish to deny the opportunity to other would-be poets. I realize I've chosen shaky ground for this battle. Nevertheless, there is something in the academic instritutionalization of poetry that really troubles me, and has for many years. One of the main motivations for starting an arts group called the Poetry Mission here in Providence was my sense that, for the poets in the MFA programs at Brown & the other colleges - both the teachers & the students - there was a gap between the actual local culture and the official poetry culture of the schools. The Mission set up a number of readings & events in the community, working outside the colleges entirely. My sense of unease goes back a long way - I remember being bothered by a quite complacent, bland essay by R. Pinsky published in the late 70s or early 80s, in which he celebrated the "professionalization" of poetry through academic appointments for poets & the MFA system. What the academy does - & I am focusing on what I see as a negative outcome, aside from what are, as I acknowledged in an earlier post, the many positive aspects - what it does is set up a mediating, officiating establishment, which to my mind militates against one of the most important characteristics of poetry - its utter freedom to imagine, address, & challenge people in a direct, unmediated way. The poet's words are too primary & original to need or want any kind of ulterior sanction. The poet needs to stand and address the world without any support whatsoever, from within his or her own independent sphere. This is a liminal situation for any writer - but it finds its echo in the liminal situation of the non-writer, the voiceless, the un-supported, the unsophisticated, the un-networked. This echo may contain the most valuable things the poet has to say. Why did Wallace Stevens think of academic poets as "bought men"? Could it have something to do with the insider networks of official, "professional" poetry? Henry From barry.spacks at verizon.net Mon Jan 20 12:47:06 2003 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 09:47:06 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Lit Plus Writ In-Reply-To: <20030120170102.BB98D100E1@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030120094032.00a1cb90@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:01 PM 1/20/03 -0500, David Graham wrote of: >an MFA program with a vigorous "academic" emphasis in addition to its >"studio" side; and yes, they do exist. David, again and again students ask advice about just this sort of program (I went through one at Indiana U. years ago, and if it still exists I'd nudge prospective grad students there in a wink) -- but I've lost touch: could you mention a few of these places you have in mind where literary study on the M.A. model is combined with M.F.A.-style experience? on on, Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From simon at ipfw.edu Mon Jan 20 12:58:01 2003 From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:58:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Lit Plus Writ Message-ID: I'm not David, but, I think you might look or have students look at Notre Dame's relatively new MFA program, and perhaps U Mass. beth >>> barry.spacks at verizon.net 01/20/03 12:47PM >>> At 12:01 PM 1/20/03 -0500, David Graham wrote of: >an MFA program with a vigorous "academic" emphasis in addition to its >"studio" side; and yes, they do exist. David, again and again students ask advice about just this sort of program (I went through one at Indiana U. years ago, and if it still exists I'd nudge prospective grad students there in a wink) -- but I've lost touch: could you mention a few of these places you have in mind where literary study on the M.A. model is combined with M.F.A.-style experience? on on, Barry From hruggier at localnet.com Mon Jan 20 13:31:45 2003 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:31:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alpaugh Essay in P & W Message-ID: <3E2C4091.5840DC75@localnet.com> I spent ten years working for a company which makes compressors (big ones for drilling oil and pumping it through pipelines). The work was well paid and incredibly boring. I got laid off. I went to MFA school (something I'd always wanted to do). Immediately I shed about ten years and twenty or so levels of stress. I was among people who cared about poetry and did not make your life a misery because of it. I was used to personal humiliation because of my interest in poetry. At MFA school I could actually say I was a poet and not have people snicker and make the old Longfellow cracks about feet. I knew a lot before I went. I learned a lot more. I loved it. And even if it meant I went to adjunct hell when I graduated - it was worth it. This Alpaugh sounds like he just fell off the turnip truck. It goes to source - for the past five or so years even though I've kept up my subscription I haven't read much of P & W - usually the letters to the editor, the winners and losers and the classifieds. Now that I have conpo and am on line with new-poetry and wompo and (am I getting compulsive, the Buffpo) I am going to unsubscribe to P & W. The New Yorkie attitude of chasing after the new and hot rubs me the wrong way. Thank you David Graham for stating so carefully what was wrong with the essay. From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Jan 20 13:29:33 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:29:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: prof of po I In-Reply-To: <200301201635.h0KGZXl29973@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3E2BF9BD.11567.14B1CDE@localhost> Henry Gould: > ... What the academy does ...is set up a mediating, officiating > establishment, which to my mind militates against one of the most > important characteristics of poetry - its > utter freedom to imagine, address, & challenge people > in a direct, unmediated way.<< Well I certainly don't disagree that the academy sets ups that establishment, nor that that establishment militates to some extent against the poet's use of challenging speech, but on the other hand that establishment is made up of the people who are, in the very largest part, most willing and best able to appreciate (and criticize) whether what poets do with their freedom rises to the level of art, remains merely craftsmanlike, or isn't very good at all. It's not enough that poetry, to be good, be free speech -- it also has to be good speech, and if it's not, it may still be poetry, but it may also be not very good. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Jan 20 13:43:43 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:43:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alpaugh Essay in P & W In-Reply-To: <3E2C4091.5840DC75@localnet.com> Message-ID: <3E2BFD0F.6695.15813F5@localhost> Helen Ruggieri wrote: > I spent ten years working for a company which makes compressors (big > ones for drilling oil and pumping it through pipelines). The work was > well paid and incredibly boring. I got laid off. I went to MFA school > (something I'd always wanted to do). > Immediately I shed about ten years and twenty or so levels of stress. I > was among > people who cared about poetry and did not make your life a misery > because of it.<< Alpaugh's concern, though, is not about whether MFA people and programs care about poetry or don't make lives miseries because of poetry -- it is about whether the poems are good poems, or at least have a better chance to be good poems than non-MFA poet poems, or at least that's what I understand him to be saying. The question isn't whether it's nice to be around other people who are interested in what you're interested in, but whether the programs in question are able to produce, and are producing, better poets and better poems. That of course brings up the perennial bugaboo of what it means to aver that one poem is better than another; on what criteria the judge judges. > I was used to personal humiliation because of my interest in poetry. At > MFA school I could actually say I was a poet and not have people snicker > and make > the old Longfellow cracks about feet. > I knew a lot before I went. I learned a lot more. I loved it. And > even if it meant > I went to adjunct hell when I graduated - it was worth it. > > This Alpaugh sounds like he just fell off the turnip truck. > > It goes to source - for the past five or so years even though I've kept > up my subscription I haven't read much of P & W - usually the letters to > the editor, > the winners and losers and the classifieds. Now that I have conpo and > am on > line with new-poetry and wompo and (am I getting compulsive, the Buffpo) > I > am going to unsubscribe to P & W. The New Yorkie attitude of chasing > after > the new and hot rubs me the wrong way. > > Thank you David Graham for stating so carefully what was wrong with the > essay. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Jan 20 14:01:39 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 11:01:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Prof of Po I Message-ID: <20030120190140.F25B047DA@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From luap at mallasch.com Mon Jan 20 13:57:43 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 13:57:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Prof of Po I In-Reply-To: <20030120190140.F25B047DA@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: I've always summed it up as: Talent Persistance Luck Unfortunately, a lot of the time you have #1 and #2 but can't seem to find #3 ;) -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, CobbCoStudioArts wrote: > Marcus & Henry, > > There are some factors that you have not mentioned regarding how learning is achieved in the fine arts, i.e., poetry, painting, music, etc. They include an interest, a desire, a talent, and something worthwhile to say, express, or play. The most important things though are fortitude, having patience, and, practice, practice, practice!!! > > Bob > > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > > --- "Marcus Bales" wrote: > >Henry Gould: > >>... Yes, [poetry]'s a complex art which requires > >> practice, study, & teaching to understand & develop. Yet > >> if it becomes a craft it's ruined. How do we deal with > >> this paradox? ...<< > > > >Is the art of painting ruined if it becomes a craft? No -- and no > >more is poetry. It seems to me that there has to be a critical mass > >of craftsmanship and craftsmen before art can occur. I'm no fan of > >"the MFA poem" when that phrase is used in the way that "Hallmark > >jingle" is used to demean and dismiss another kind of equally bad > >work (and I'd argue they are bad in the same broad way -- that such > >work misses not only the mark of art but the mark of craftsmanship, > >too, misses the point of the endeavor as a whole), but it does seem > >to me that it's a good thing to offer to as broad a spectrum of > >people as possible, the directions to and along the path of poetry, > >and the tools to travel it. > > > >Henry Gould: > >> I don't know. Maybe we don't deal with it > >> at all. Poetry is the sacred beast, poetry is the > >> center outside the circumference of the walls. Poetry > >> must be learned ("the scholar's art") but it can't be > >> taught.< > > > >Well, this privileges "poetry" as "good poetry", doesn't it? > >Certainly poetry can be taught -- both appreciation of it and, for > >most people, a craftsmanlike facility with language, in the same way > >that nearly anyone can be taught to draw or sing (barring the few in > >each endeavor who are impaired as with tone-deafness and the like). > >That one can be taught to draw or sing -- or write poetry -- doesn't > >mean that one can be taught to be Picasso or Pavarotti -- or Pound. > > > >There's a similar problem in the sciences. We say we can teach > >science but in a profound way science can no more be taught than > >poetry. There is an essence in scientific work that we expect people > >to pick up by osmosis without telling them just what it is -- because > >we can't tell what "science" is any more accurately or articulately > >than we can tell what "poetry" is. There is a sort of bending-over- > >backward-to-be-fair-ness about science that teachers hope is learned > >without being taught: the notion that one must not just do the > >experiment reproducibly, and posit the hypothesis or theory, but that > >one must do all one can to show why the experiment might NOT show > >what one hopes it shows, and answer the questions about why not as > >well as put forward the reasons one hopes it does. > > > >But it is as hard to get people to understand what "good science" is, > >and to do it, as it is to get people to understand what "good poetry > >is, and to do it. In each case we're asking the artful practitioners > >to do something new within the bounds of the understandable without > >being bound by those bounds while at the same time being bound by > >them. It's like trying to explain to someone who's never seen a > >baseball game that the goal of the pitcher is to throw the ball so > >that it can be hit so that it can't be hit. > > > > > > > > > >Marcus Bales > > > >marcus at designerglass.com > >http://www.designerglass.com > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Mon Jan 20 14:10:43 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry_Gould at brown.edu) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:10:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prof of Po I Message-ID: <200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> But Marcus, you've proffered a very "academic" notion of what "the art" is: something sponsored, taught, critically certified & promulgated by professional academic poets. I see the "art of poetry" as occurring in a more liminal, embattled and dramatic space - the space of literary fame, critical controversy, public life, & contemporary events. Academia tries to short-circuit or control this sphere by its imprimatures, its prestigitations, its officialdom, its ceremonies & stepladders. But the sphere should be centered rather on the relationship between reader-Everyperson and poet (schools, poetry groups, reviews, critical studies - these are important but peripheral, secondary to this central event or relationship). Helen Ruggieri's enjoyable experience in an MFA program, which paralleled Finnegan's argument, while valuable in its own right, should not be seen as the PURPOSE for poetry. If the aim of MFA programs is to produce happy satisfied writers of poetry, fine. But don't, like Pinsky, call that poetry's "professional" role. The profession of poetry is something that aims far beyond school. Henry From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Jan 20 14:33:57 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:33:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prof of Po I In-Reply-To: <200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3E2C08D5.108.1861465@localhost> Henry_Gould at brown.edu wrote: > But Marcus, you've proffered a very "academic" notion of > what "the art" is: something sponsored, taught, critically > certified & promulgated by professional academic poets. > I see the "art of poetry" as occurring in a more liminal, > embattled and dramatic space - the space of literary fame, critical > controversy, public life, & contemporary events. Well, I'm not sure I'm saying that _art_ can be _taught_; I'm saying the craft can be taught, and one way or another an artist has to have enough craft so that his or her art is not obscured by unsolved technical difficulties. But you're right that I'm holding that poetry, and all art, is sponsored, critically certified & promulgated to students by a professional class of poets and critics. Unless you're prepared to agree that the pantheon of great English poets sets Rudyard Kipling, Robert Service, Banjo Patterson, Vachel Lindsay, and the like above the more mainstream canon, because those are the poets, and those are the poems, that the non-academic public values and knows, I don't see quite what you're saying. Henry Gould: > Academia tries to short-circuit or control this sphere by its > imprimatures, its prestigitations, its officialdom, its > ceremonies & stepladders. But the sphere should be > centered rather on the relationship between reader-Everyperson > and poet (schools, poetry groups, reviews, critical > studies - these are important but peripheral, secondary > to this central event or relationship).<< Well, by this you do indeed seem to be saying that those poets who are most popular are those poets you'd say are writing the best poems -- that Joyce Kilmer and Ella Wheeler Wilcox are to be preferred to Eliot and Frost because they were more successful at creating that relationship between the writer and reader. Am I misinterpreting what you're saying here? Henry Gould: > Helen Ruggieri's enjoyable experience in an MFA > program, which paralleled Finnegan's argument, > while valuable in its own right, should not be > seen as the PURPOSE for poetry. If the aim of > MFA programs is to produce happy satisfied writers > of poetry, fine. But don't, like Pinsky, call > that poetry's "professional" role. The profession > of poetry is something that aims far beyond school.< I agree with you here, as I hope you noted in my reply to Helen's post. Certainly the poet has to aim beyond the academy, and particularly beyond his or her contemporary academy, but he or she has to please the contemporary academy _too_, at least to some extent, or risk sinking into the nether world of John Godfrey Saxe and John Gould Fletcher (unless, perhaps, the lesson is to avoid being named "John", or having the initials "JG"). Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Mon Jan 20 14:33:14 2003 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:33:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry Message-ID: Various comments on various things: Marcus said: I think it _is_ the case that what MFA programss purport to do, and what MFA-in-Poetry-Writing students do in fact expect an MFA-in- Poetry-Writing program to do, is make one a superior AND well- thought-of poet -- or at least start one off on the path with the proper tools. If the MFA-in-Poetry-Writing program cannot deliver, to a person who _wants_ to be a superior and well-thought-of poet, at least the tools to be, and directions on the path to becoming, a superior and well- thought-of poet, what is an MFA-in-Poetry-Writing program good for at all? And I say: I'm considering applying to an MFA program, not really to become a superior or well-thought-of poet (and any poet is doing well to be thought of at all), but to become better at it and, most importantly for me, to have a writing community. I think the great appeal of such a program is that you can come from a place without a critical mass of writers and arrive in one that does. And that, I think, is the key to what it's good for--putting you in contact with other writers. And Henry said: One of the main motivations for starting an arts group called the Poetry Mission here in Providence was my sense that, for the poets in the MFA programs at Brown & the other colleges - both the teachers & the students - there was a gap between the actual local culture and the official poetry culture of the schools. The Mission set up a number of readings & events in the community, working outside the colleges entirely. And I say: That's all well and good. But what about places where there's hardly any poetry culture at all? What the academy does - & I am focusing on what I see as a negative outcome, aside from what are, as I acknowledged in an earlier post, the many positive aspects - what it does is set up a mediating, officiating establishment, which to my mind militates against one of the most important characteristics of poetry - its utter freedom to imagine, address, & challenge people in a direct, unmediated way. The poet's words are too primary & original to need or want any kind of ulterior sanction. The poet needs to stand and address the world without any support whatsoever, from within his or her own independent sphere. This is a liminal situation for any writer - but it finds its echo in the liminal situation of the non-writer, the voiceless, the un-supported, the unsophisticated, the un-networked. This echo may contain the most valuable things the poet has to say. And I say: But who really is unsupported (with the possible exception of Emily Dickinson)? Poets have long supported, edited, gossiped with, and pulled strings for for each other. (After all, Pound ran rough-shod over Eliot's "The Waste Land," and you can tell. And in his age, while there was not the MFA, having that certain man approve of your work would be an inside track--there's always a network.) And while I agree that bringing poetry into the academy runs the danger of creating a totally alienated, self-sustaining community of poets, publishers, and, to a certain extent, jobs, it is up to the individual poet, really, whether to take advantage of his or her newly found credentials and network or to let the work speak for itself. Having an MFA conferred does not seem to automatically make someone a business card-swapping, name-dropping fool. That is ultimately the decision of each graduate. Do poets really have to be pure as monks, consistenly confident in the value of their own works without need or desire of the considered opinions of others? There are certainly people like that; it doesn't automatically make them good at poetry or, for that matter, any better than their compatriots with credentials. -Amber From trbell at comcast.net Mon Jan 20 18:13:44 2003 From: trbell at comcast.net (tombell) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:13:44 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry (long) References: Message-ID: <011001c2c0d9$955977e0$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> my first impulse was to ask whether this was available on the web but then reading your post I realized that the 'essay' was probably just another tired rehash of two issues: 1. what is a 'good' poem? 2. is 'thick description' a quality of 'good' I posted a query about 2 seeking info on several poetry lists and got no response so presume the answer here is no. With what appears to be a resurgence of interest outside the groves and hubs the answer to 1 does seem important once again and unfortunately it's possible this might be defined through the 'Life in these United States' poems commissioned by the Bush admin for dissemenation only elsehwere as propaganda? apologies for having bound myself into virtual incoherence here. Maybe instead of seeking out what others have said I should sit down with pencil rather than keyboard and say it myself? tom bell Try to like something __ |ry tO | Li ke something and the anger will GO From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Jan 20 15:04:54 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:04:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3E2C1016.18382.1A26B35@localhost> Amber Prentiss wrote: > I'm considering applying to an MFA program, not really to become a superior > or well-thought-of poet (and any poet is doing well to be thought of at > all), but to become better at it and, most importantly for me, to have a > writing community.<< Well, this is once again looking at the core of the question -- what is an MFA-in-Poetry-Writing _for_, after all? -- but when you say you want to get better at writing poems and I say > what MFA-in-Poetry-Writing students do in fact expect an MFA-in- > Poetry-Writing program to do, is make one a superior AND well- > thought-of poet -- or at least start one off on the path with the > proper tools. it seems to me we're saying at least partially the same thing: you speak of "becoming better at it" and I speak of "on the path with the proper tools". That looks to me as if it is at least close to the same thing. But of course neither your and my phrases say much about what we mean by "better at it". Amber Prentiss: > I think the great appeal of such a program is that you > can come from a place without a critical mass of writers and arrive in one > that does. And that, I think, is the key to what it's good for--putting you > in contact with other writers. << Well, I'm sure that that is so -- but I'm with Henry on this (I think he and I are saying the same thing here): that just bringing like- minded people together, while perhaps necessary, is simply not sufficient. Without a program that demands that the like-minded people get better, within a fairly clear notion of what "better" means in context, at what they are like-minded about, it is just as likely that those like-minded people will form self-congratulatory and, perhaps, very happy groups, but not that they will actually get "better at it". > And Henry said: > One of the main motivations for > starting an arts group called the Poetry Mission here in > Providence was my sense that, for the poets in the MFA programs > at Brown & the other colleges - both the teachers & the > students - there was a gap between the actual > local culture and the official poetry culture of the > schools. The Mission set up a number of readings & > events in the community, working outside the colleges > entirely. Amber Prentiss: > That's all well and good. But what about places where there's hardly any > poetry culture at all? Well, that's sad, and one imagines that there are a number of options: start your own community of poetry culture, move to where there is one, work on your own without an immediate one within the written one, or give up. But the notion that an MFA-in-Poetry-Writing program's main purpose is to create a place where like-minded people can enjoy one anothers' company argues strongly for Alpaugh's critique of such programs, and their results. Amber Prentiss: > ... And while I agree that bringing poetry > into the academy runs the danger of creating a totally alienated, > self-sustaining community of poets, publishers, and, to a certain extent, > jobs, it is up to the individual poet, really, whether to take advantage of > his or her newly found credentials and network or to let the work speak for > itself.<< Well, yes, it's up to the individual poet, but that still puts aside unanswered the question of what does it mean to "let the work speak for itself": what are the criteria by which the work is judged? And those are the real central questions here, it seems to me, what are the criteria by which the work is judged, and do MFA-in-Poetry- Writing programs succeed in teaching what those criteria are, and how to use them, in order to write better poems? It doesn't seem to me that the question is whether MFA programs attract groups of like- minded people. Of course they do -- the real question is what does the program offer those people beyond membership in a group of like- minded people? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Jan 20 15:25:10 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:25:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: prof of po I References: <200301201635.h0KGZXl29973@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <002201c2c0c2$0830f5d0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Henry -- as long as there's been academic poetry, there have been people like you railing at it, setting up counter-programs and counter-cultures or simply turning their backis on the whole thing and writing privately. And I see this as a good thing. But we've never been without it, from Stevens and Williams to Ginsberg and McClure to Koch and O'Hara to Ed Sanders to Antler to Bob Grumman to the slammers to the rappers. The reason why Wallace Stevens thought of academic poets as "bought men" was because he wasn't one. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 11:35 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] re: prof of po I > Yes, many sensible counter-arguments have been made > regarding poetry as craft, the teachability of the craft, > the value of creating space for poets & art in academia, > the fact that some, maybe many, MFA programs include > requirements in general literature as well, do try to > integrate "C.W." with education in general. I took some > writing classes as an undergrad myself, with gusto, and > would not wish to deny the opportunity to other would-be > poets. > > I realize I've chosen shaky ground for this battle. > Nevertheless, there is something in the academic > instritutionalization of poetry that really troubles me, > and has for many years. One of the main motivations for > starting an arts group called the Poetry Mission here in > Providence was my sense that, for the poets in the MFA programs > at Brown & the other colleges - both the teachers & the > students - there was a gap between the actual > local culture and the official poetry culture of the > schools. The Mission set up a number of readings & > events in the community, working outside the colleges > entirely. > > My sense of unease goes back a long way - I remember being > bothered by a quite complacent, bland essay by R. Pinsky > published in the late 70s or early 80s, in which he > celebrated the "professionalization" of poetry through > academic appointments for poets & the MFA system. > > What the academy does - & I am focusing on what I see as > a negative outcome, aside from what are, as I acknowledged > in an earlier post, the many positive aspects - what it > does is set up a mediating, officiating establishment, > which to my mind militates against one of the most > important characteristics of poetry - its > utter freedom to imagine, address, & challenge people > in a direct, unmediated way. The poet's words are too > primary & original to need or want any kind of ulterior > sanction. The poet needs to stand and address the world > without any support whatsoever, from within his or her own independent sphere. This is a liminal situation for any > writer - but it finds its echo in the liminal situation > of the non-writer, the voiceless, the un-supported, the > unsophisticated, the un-networked. This echo may contain > the most valuable things the poet has to say. > > Why did Wallace Stevens think of academic poets as "bought > men"? Could it have something to do with the insider > networks of official, "professional" poetry? > > Henry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From trbell at comcast.net Mon Jan 20 19:04:20 2003 From: trbell at comcast.net (tombell) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:04:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry References: <3E2C1016.18382.1A26B35@localhost> Message-ID: <015601c2c0e0$a6d0bc20$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> and email lists have another advantage over MFA programs? You rarely have to actually meet the peopel. tom bell > minded people. Of course they do -- the real question is what does > the program offer those people beyond membership in a group of like- > minded people? > > > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Mon Jan 20 15:44:53 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry_Gould at brown.edu) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:44:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] prof of po Message-ID: <200301202044.h0KKirl29367@draco.services.brown.edu> Responding to Amber: But Amber, I think that poetry, essentially, IS "unsupported" speech. You're right that every poet lives & thrives in context, that poetry like the other arts is shared, that Emily Dickinson is the exception that proves the rule; nevertheless, and this is responding to Marcus as well, the fact that this context exists does not negate the fact that poetry is essentially liminal, "originary", free speech. What I'm suggesting is that the real arena of poetry - the arena of fame, of utter obscurity, of public speech, of private solitude - should not be obscured by the mediations of its supposed "official" sponsors. Marcus argues that unless one's benchmark for poetry is the middlebrow "popular" poets (actually I think Vachel Lindsay is a very interesting case) then we must have to have an academic structure in order to assure adequate critical consideration. Well, who were the critical tastemakers of the 20th century? Eliot, Pound, Williams, Stevens, Crane. (Tate & Wimsatt et al. only formalized & professionalized what they had already achieved). Were any of them part of the professoriate? Who were the tastemakers of the 19th century - in poetry? Wordsworth, Coleridge, Keats, Shelley, Byron. Were any of them part of the professoriate? I suppose the exception is Matthew Arnold - but he was more of a critic than a poet, I think. Who were the tastemakers of the 18th century? Who were the tastemakers of the 17th cenury? I'm not by ANY means arguing that there is NO place for the academy!!!! I just question the argument that the academic professionals are the guarantors of highbrow achievement. Henry From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jan 20 16:01:01 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:01:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Patricia Goedicke poem Message-ID: hole by patricia goedicke ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Glares up at us like a black graffiti covered stone the day after the execution. Birds like heavy cigars, coffins wheeling overhead. If this be corpse or grave. If this be tooth or cavity or dry lake bed. Or spewed vomit of self pity or howl, no tongue left to speak with: if there be the same killing fields from the start: the gallows in the playpen. If there be cracked eggshell and no egg. Neither yolk nor white nor whole-Baby-live-forever. Hah! If there be no kernel. No core to the applehead. If there be love when love is dead. If the outer firmament be arched skin only. If the noose embrace nothing but cold ore and bowels, where is the high famed convexity of which this is the concave? For this is not a private. Not a personal crack in a sealed container. No, this is not a single lost shoe: on the nation?s highways the owner is long gone. And whether this be outer or inner rot, murderous aimed or innocent kick, here is an end to it, a hollow depression which has no bottom and no top. From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jan 20 16:32:47 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 16:32:47 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Lit Plus Writ Message-ID: <148.8257ad2.2b5dc4ff@aol.com> In a message dated 1/20/03 12:45:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, barry.spacks at verizon.net writes: > I've lost touch: could you mention a few of these places you have in mind > where literary study on the M.A. model is combined with M.F.A.-style > experience? I'd like to ask those interested in this topic to post a brief model curriculum for the ideal MFA in Poetry program. Finnegan From paul at tbhinc.com Mon Jan 20 17:09:43 2003 From: paul at tbhinc.com (Paul C. Howell) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:09:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, The MFA Business In-Reply-To: <20030120192201.E9EA1100E2@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030120165809.02d55db8@mail.tbhinc.com> I haven't read the Alpaugh piece in P&W yet but enjoyed David Graham's comments. The people I know with MFAs are smart enough to know that it's a tough teaching market. They also know that making a living as a poet, even a well-read poet, is tough. So why do they do it? All the ones I know exhibit a combination of talent and temperament, but so do musicians, mathematicians and salesmen. Another question is: what drives the market? Universities need to fill up more dorm beds with tuition-payers? If the university bets on a thousand MFAs and only one wins a Nobel Prize, the university has a feather in its cap? There is a pent-up supply (which may someday find a demand)? Or what? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jan 20 17:36:19 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 17:36:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalization of Poetry I Message-ID: <43.16e0c4c6.2b5dd3e3@aol.com> In a message dated 1/20/03 10:14:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > think it _is_ the case that what MFA programss purport to do, and > what MFA-in-Poetry-Writing students do in fact expect an MFA-in- > Poetry-Writing program to do, is make one a superior AND well- > thought-of poet -- or at least start one off on the path with the > proper tools. Marcus, I don't think they do. First off, how could they?; they don't control that much of the process. It takes talent, multiple publications, favorable reviews, etc., to make one a well-thought-of poet. The MFA program, can only help one gain a certain skill set and some experience, which, coupled with one's talents and energies, might, with a little luck (& some connections, wouldn't hurt either) start one off on the path, as you say. I challenge you to find that poor dupe of a character you've suggested who gets lured into an MFA program and expects to come out the other side elbow to elbow with Billy, Adrienne, Charles, etc. And, of course, the terms "superior" and "well-thought-of," beg a question: By whom? What constituency? Presumably, the MFA grads from Brown, Iowa, Arkansas, Naropa, The New School, etc., because each program differs (Alpaugh glosses over their differences), all have a somewhat different view what his approving audience will be, if he/she can ever find one. Then there is the matter of the long view: One can be well-thought-of during a period of time (one's lifetime, say) and then so easily slip into oblivion's nether canon of the once-well-thought-of poets. Anyone who has ever edited a magazine knows there are many poets out there who could benefit, if they are capable of listening to critcism, from a couple of years spent in a MFA program. And, there are probably poets who would not benefit, and think this is what Henry is suggesting. There are those who might, in the wrong hands, under the wrong praxis, be made better writers but worse poets. But I'd like to think that the best of our young poets are like wild horses: They can't be broken easily. They'll take a few carrots from your hand (feeding on what mentor poets & peers might offer) but they'll never take the bit. > It seems pretty silly to say that an MFA-in-Poetry-Writing program > would make one a good carpenter or astronaut or soldier, perhaps, but > if one took an MFA-in-Carpentry program, wouldn't you expect that the > people who graduated would be superior and well-thought-of > carpenters, or at least on the right path with the proper tools? It would be silly, but I didn't say it. You did. Finnegan From poemlady at cox.net Mon Jan 20 18:35:46 2003 From: poemlady at cox.net (Audrey Friedman) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:35:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lit Plus Writ References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030120094032.00a1cb90@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <124501c2c0dc$a87d0960$4fc30944@Zoom> I have been following this thread and must admit that I am totally baffled. I recently finished my first semester in Vermont College's MFA in Poetry. My reason for going was my needing a mentor. Having attended writing conferences such as Bread Loaf where I studied with Michael Collier, and week-long workshops (i.e. Mark Doty, Castle Hill Center for the Fine Arts, Truro, MA), I knew that I needed more of that type of mentorship to continue to grow as a poet. Both encouraged me to pursue the MFA. I don't need another degree, and have found my professional calling teaching 8th grade English which I will continue to do. There were few grad level courses offered locally that focused on the writing of poetry, and I did the adult ed poetry at the Community College. I needed study on a higher level, and needed to study with others who were beyond the Shel Silverstein school of poetry. So far, I can't give anything but praise to the program. Roger Weingarten is my advisor, and he has guided me through a wide menu of readings, taught me to be a more than competent and analytical reader of the genre, and has shown me many options I hadn't explored in my own writing. The visiting poets, and all faculty members are passionate about both their teaching and their writing. Do I expect to come out of the program with a certificate proclaiming me a "100% genuine, certified successful poet" who is guaranteed acclaim? For sure, I don't, just as I never put responsibility on the university for making me a master teacher. I am, however, already a more confident reader, a reader with a much wider scope, and a writer with a much more adventurous spirit. I'm not sure what the other MFA Programs do differently than Vermont Colleges, but I did explore Bennington, Warren Wilson and Antioch among others. All programs were based upon in depth reading and critical writing on the genre. I hope that someone makes it clear what exactly the criticism is against these programs. Audrey Friedman East Greenwich, RI -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From luap at mallasch.com Mon Jan 20 18:40:55 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:40:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Lit Plus Writ In-Reply-To: <124501c2c0dc$a87d0960$4fc30944@Zoom> Message-ID: From what I've been able to gather from skimming of the posts is that it's the age-old academia/street, poetry is taught/can't be taught question. I don't see them as being a bad thing, but also not the be all and end all of being a modern day poet. Just my two shekels, kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Mon, 20 Jan 2003, Audrey Friedman wrote: > I have been following this thread and must admit that I am totally baffled. I recently finished my first semester in Vermont College's MFA in Poetry. My reason for going was my needing a mentor. Having attended writing conferences such as Bread Loaf where I studied with Michael Collier, and week-long workshops (i.e. Mark Doty, Castle Hill Center for the Fine Arts, Truro, MA), I knew that I needed more of that type of mentorship to continue to grow as a poet. Both encouraged me to pursue the MFA. I don't need another degree, and have found my professional calling teaching 8th grade English which I will continue to do. There were few grad level courses offered locally that focused on the writing of poetry, and I did the adult ed poetry at the Community College. I needed study on a higher level, and needed to study with others who were beyond the Shel Silverstein school of poetry. So far, I can't give anything but praise to the program. Roger Weingarten is my advisor, and he has guided me through a wide menu of readings, taught me to be a more than competent and analytical reader of the genre, and has shown me many options I hadn't explored in my own writing. The visiting poets, and all faculty members are passionate about both their teaching and their writing. Do I expect to come out of the program with a certificate proclaiming me a "100% genuine, certified successful poet" who is guaranteed acclaim? For sure, I don't, just as I never put responsibility on the university for making me a master teacher. I am, however, already a more confident reader, a reader with a much wider scope, and a writer with a much more adventurous spirit. I'm not sure what the other MFA Programs do differently than Vermont Colleges, but I did explore Bennington, Warren Wilson and Antioch among others. All programs were based upon in depth reading and critical writing on the genre. I hope that someone makes it clear what exactly the criticism is against these programs. > Audrey Friedman > East Greenwich, RI > From poemlady at cox.net Mon Jan 20 18:55:36 2003 From: poemlady at cox.net (Audrey Friedman) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 18:55:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lit Plus Writ References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030120094032.00a1cb90@incoming.verizon.net> <124501c2c0dc$a87d0960$4fc30944@Zoom> Message-ID: <128101c2c0df$6dcb1160$4fc30944@Zoom> Yes, Paul. This is true for pursuit of any creative expertise. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: Audrey Friedman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 6:35 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Lit Plus Writ I have been following this thread and must admit that I am totally baffled. I recently finished my first semester in Vermont College's MFA in Poetry. My reason for going was my needing a mentor. Having attended writing conferences such as Bread Loaf where I studied with Michael Collier, and week-long workshops (i.e. Mark Doty, Castle Hill Center for the Fine Arts, Truro, MA), I knew that I needed more of that type of mentorship to continue to grow as a poet. Both encouraged me to pursue the MFA. I don't need another degree, and have found my professional calling teaching 8th grade English which I will continue to do. There were few grad level courses offered locally that focused on the writing of poetry, and I did the adult ed poetry at the Community College. I needed study on a higher level, and needed to study with others who were beyond the Shel Silverstein school of poetry. So far, I can't give anything but praise to the program. Roger Weingarten is my advisor, and he has guided me through a wide menu of readings, taught me to be a more than competent and analytical reader of the genre, and has shown me many options I hadn't explored in my own writing. The visiting poets, and all faculty members are passionate about both their teaching and their writing. Do I expect to come out of the program with a certificate proclaiming me a "100% genuine, certified successful poet" who is guaranteed acclaim? For sure, I don't, just as I never put responsibility on the university for making me a master teacher. I am, however, already a more confident reader, a reader with a much wider scope, and a writer with a much more adventurous spirit. I'm not sure what the other MFA Programs do differently than Vermont Colleges, but I did explore Bennington, Warren Wilson and Antioch among others. All programs were based upon in depth reading and critical writing on the genre. I hope that someone makes it clear what exactly the criticism is against these programs. Audrey Friedman East Greenwich, RI -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Cadaly at aol.com Mon Jan 20 22:13:13 2003 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 22:13:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Belated Writers & Teachers Reading Annoucement Message-ID: <29F1C038.2F7F04F9.00045B92@aol.com> Catherine Daly's Writers & Teachers Reading Series continues with *Gail Wronsky*!!! reading with an introducing three of her students from Loyola Marymount: Tamikka Forbes, Amy Ross, and Rebecca Rexroad Tuesday, 7:30 free + brownies continues at the Barnes & Noble Westwood, Los Angeles, CA, in the Westside Pavillion mall at Westwood & Pico (10850 W. Pico) From adead_poet at hotmail.com Tue Jan 21 01:49:58 2003 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 00:49:58 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry Message-ID: Ah, I love the MFA debate. What about those of us who get into a program in order to study under a particular poet? Isn't that a good enough reason to get into an MFA program? To find a mentor that you wish to study under? jason >From: "Marcus Bales" >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry >Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:04:54 -0500 > >Amber Prentiss wrote: > > I'm considering applying to an MFA program, not really to become a >superior > > or well-thought-of poet (and any poet is doing well to be thought of at > > all), but to become better at it and, most importantly for me, to have a > > writing community.<< > >Well, this is once again looking at the core of the question -- what >is an MFA-in-Poetry-Writing _for_, after all? -- but when you say you >want to get better at writing poems and I say > > > what MFA-in-Poetry-Writing students do in fact expect an MFA-in- > > Poetry-Writing program to do, is make one a superior AND well- > > thought-of poet -- or at least start one off on the path with the > > proper tools. > >it seems to me we're saying at least partially the same thing: you >speak of "becoming better at it" and I speak of "on the path with the >proper tools". That looks to me as if it is at least close to the >same thing. > >But of course neither your and my phrases say much about what we mean >by "better at it". > >Amber Prentiss: > > I think the great appeal of such a program is that you > > can come from a place without a critical mass of writers and arrive in >one > > that does. And that, I think, is the key to what it's good for--putting >you > > in contact with other writers. << > >Well, I'm sure that that is so -- but I'm with Henry on this (I think >he and I are saying the same thing here): that just bringing like- >minded people together, while perhaps necessary, is simply not >sufficient. Without a program that demands that the like-minded >people get better, within a fairly clear notion of what "better" >means in context, at what they are like-minded about, it is just as >likely that those like-minded people will form self-congratulatory >and, perhaps, very happy groups, but not that they will actually get >"better at it". > > > And Henry said: > > One of the main motivations for > > starting an arts group called the Poetry Mission here in > > Providence was my sense that, for the poets in the MFA programs > > at Brown & the other colleges - both the teachers & the > > students - there was a gap between the actual > > local culture and the official poetry culture of the > > schools. The Mission set up a number of readings & > > events in the community, working outside the colleges > > entirely. > >Amber Prentiss: > > That's all well and good. But what about places where there's hardly any > > poetry culture at all? > >Well, that's sad, and one imagines that there are a number of >options: start your own community of poetry culture, move to where >there is one, work on your own without an immediate one within the >written one, or give up. But the notion that an MFA-in-Poetry-Writing >program's main purpose is to create a place where like-minded people >can enjoy one anothers' company argues strongly for Alpaugh's >critique of such programs, and their results. > >Amber Prentiss: > > ... And while I agree that bringing poetry > > into the academy runs the danger of creating a totally alienated, > > self-sustaining community of poets, publishers, and, to a certain >extent, > > jobs, it is up to the individual poet, really, whether to take advantage >of > > his or her newly found credentials and network or to let the work speak >for > > itself.<< > >Well, yes, it's up to the individual poet, but that still puts aside >unanswered the question of what does it mean to "let the work speak >for itself": what are the criteria by which the work is judged? > >And those are the real central questions here, it seems to me, what >are the criteria by which the work is judged, and do MFA-in-Poetry- >Writing programs succeed in teaching what those criteria are, and how >to use them, in order to write better poems? It doesn't seem to me >that the question is whether MFA programs attract groups of like- >minded people. Of course they do -- the real question is what does >the program offer those people beyond membership in a group of like- >minded people? > > > > >Marcus Bales > >marcus at designerglass.com >http://www.designerglass.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jan 21 08:20:18 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:20:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] prof of po In-Reply-To: <200301202044.h0KKirl29367@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3E2D02C2.5152.2BFF73@localhost> Henry Gould: > ... What I'm suggesting is that the > real arena of poetry - the arena of fame, of > utter obscurity, of public speech, of private solitude - > should not be obscured by the mediations of its > supposed "official" sponsors. << Well, "sponsors" doesn't seem to me to be le mot juste -- nor does "guarantors" further on. It seems to me that the function of the academy is not that it provides money or prestige for contemporary poets, but rather that it passes judgment on the content of the canon: providing a forum for the next generation, and those following, of academics to discuss this generation of poets and evaluate this generation of poems. Contemporary critics are notoriously unreliable judges of contemporary poets, as a rule. It would be a bad thing to make the academy the "sponsor" or "guarantor" of contemporary poetry. Henry Gould: > Marcus argues that > unless one's benchmark for poetry is the middlebrow > "popular" poets (actually I think Vachel Lindsay > is a very interesting case) then we must have to > have an academic structure in order to assure adequate > critical consideration. << Well, I'm not so much arguing that as pointing out that without either an academic structure or some other means of paying bright engaged people to examine and pass judgment on art pretty much all you're going to get is middle-brow poetry down to doggerel. There's no money in poetry; poets work for a combination of the joy of the thing itself and the promise of a lasting reputation. But there is no "lasting reputation" in the popular middlebrow environment -- not even for avowedly popular middlebrow stuff. Go to the library and try to find Ogden Nash's books, or Rex Stout's, or even Isaac Asimov's. These were prolific and very popular writers but the libraries are not preserving even _their_ works, much less the works of Ella Wheeler Wilcox or John Godfrey Saxe. Because such writers were not aiming at the high-brow audience of the academy, though, neither is the academy paying attention to evaluate their various virtues. Nor should it: one of the reasons to _have_ an academy, however it is constituted, is to function as the gate-keeper between middle- and high-brow aspirations by artists. Academics make their share of mistakes in judgment, of course, but part of the function of the academy is to provide a forum where someone can say "Hey, wait a minute, Vachel Lindsay is a special case ..." and actually have a chance to persuade others to take another look in other light. Henry Gould: > Well, who were the critical > tastemakers of the 20th century? ... Who were the tastemakers of > the 19th century - in poetry? ... Who were the tastemakers of the > 18th century? Who were the tastemakers of the 17th cenury? I'm > not by ANY means arguing that there is NO place for the academy! > I just question the argument that the academic professionals are > the guarantors of highbrow achievement.<< There is always an educated elite who are the tastemakers; they are variously constituted as "the court of the king" or "the reviews" or "the academy" but they play their role in the same way in each case: they are the gate-keepers who ultimately decide what constitutes "good poetry" -- what's worth keeping and what sloughs away. Tastes change, of course, and poets get bored writing the same old stuff as their parents or grandparents did, and some poets just try new stuff because it's new. Nonetheless, a few zealots who refuse to read Tennyson (or whoever) aside, the notion that "the best is the best though a hundred judges declare it so" remains. I'm arguing not for "the academy as it is currently constituted" but for a mechanism to provide a broad consensus of what "good poetry" means, call it what you will. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 21 09:06:27 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:06:27 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Caffeine Destiny winter: Bob Hicok, Denise Duhamel, and more Message-ID: <127.20423761.2b5eade3@aol.com> Subj: Caffeine Destiny winter: Bob Hicok, Denise Duhamel, and more Date: 1/20/03 5:53:51 PM Eastern Standard Time From: editor at caffeinedestiny.com (Susan Denning) To: list at caffeinedestiny.com The Winter 2003 Caffeine Destiny is online and includes answers from Bob Hicok to questions we've asked, as well as poetry by Denise Duhamel, Walt McDonald and Cecelia Hagen. Stop by! www.caffeinedestiny.com Thanks, Susan Denning Editor Caffeine Destiny From bardo at optonline.net Tue Jan 21 09:12:07 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:12:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Caffeine Destiny winter: Bob Hicok, Denise Duhamel, and more References: <127.20423761.2b5eade3@aol.com> Message-ID: <005e01c2c157$15157b00$ec59bd18@MULDER> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:06 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Caffeine Destiny winter: Bob Hicok, Denise Duhamel, and more > Subj: Caffeine Destiny winter: Bob Hicok, Denise Duhamel, and more > Date: 1/20/03 5:53:51 PM Eastern Standard Time > From: editor at caffeinedestiny.com (Susan Denning) > To: list at caffeinedestiny.com > > The Winter 2003 Caffeine Destiny is online and includes answers from Bob > Hicok to questions we've asked, as well as poetry by Denise Duhamel, Walt > McDonald and Cecelia Hagen. > > Stop by! > > www.caffeinedestiny.com > > Thanks, > > Susan Denning > Editor > Caffeine Destiny > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Jan 21 09:30:50 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:30:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] prof of po Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121090038.00aad3b0@postoffice.brown.edu> Marcus, I wasn't saying that the academy is not a place for gatekeeping, judging, preserving "highbrow" works. But that's not what this debate is about anyway. It's about how & where good poetry & criticism originates. That's why I thought it worth mentioning the centuries of "tastemakers" situated outside the academy. Now that I've made all the MFA candidates & graduates feel bad. . . all I'm trying to say is that after apprenticeship, after school, there's a life of poetry which is not subject to either the critical authority of institutional networks, nor to the judgements of poets whose lives are devoted mostly to teaching young people, rather than to addressing the world through their work. Nor do I want to polarize/simplify the situation: I'm not saying there aren't poets who can't straddle both worlds. What I AM saying is that this "world of poetry" - the general world of fame/obscurity, private/public life - is NOT EXACTLY THE SAME as the world of school. This is the illusion that the MFA industry sometimes projects, & I think Alpaugh et al. have a legitimate critique to make. OK, let's move on. . . Henry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Jan 21 04:06:10 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 03:06:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] tired pronouncements w/out history In-Reply-To: <200301202044.h0KKirl29367@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030121015318.01b384c8@mail.ilstu.edu> >Well, who were the critical >tastemakers of the 20th century? Eliot, Pound, >Williams, Stevens, Crane. (Tate & Wimsatt et al. only >formalized & professionalized what they had already >achieved). Were any of them part of the professoriate? With the respect due you, Henry: when I read your swiftly sketched, uncomplicated, specious and thumbnail histories, or read leading questions like the ones above (the answer to the last one, by the way, is yes -- and anyway all were taught by professors), I am very thankful for "the professoriate" -- they who take care to get the facts as straight as they can, sincerely attempting to show and persuade, rather than mucking about, asserting and foisting. In my experience, scholars and poet-scholars who've read widely and deeply in a historical period come away with a strong sense of humility for the material, the connections, and the complexities of issues such as, above, the construction of taste and cultural influence. Issues that you treat blithely, with great "intellectual" certitude and prejudicial abandon, true scholars treat with great humility and thoroughness. Gabe From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jan 21 10:04:23 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:04:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalization of Poetry I In-Reply-To: <43.16e0c4c6.2b5dd3e3@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E2D1B27.15971.8B4DDD@localhost> Marcus: > > think it _is_ the case that what MFA programss purport to do, and > > what MFA-in-Poetry-Writing students do in fact expect an MFA-in- > > Poetry-Writing program to do, is make one a superior AND well- > > thought-of poet -- or at least start one off on the path with the > > proper tools. Finnegan: > Marcus, I don't think they do. First off, how could they?; they don't control > that much of the process. It takes talent, multiple publications, > favorable reviews, etc., to make one a well-thought-of poet. The MFA > program, can only help one gain a certain skill set and some experience, > which, coupled with one's talents and energies, might, with a little luck > (& some connections, wouldn't hurt either) start one off on the path, as > you say.<< Well, my question is what's the point of getting an MFA if it doesn't actually make you master of something, if only of the first step on the path and the set of beginner's tools? Perhaps Helen and Amber are right: that what an MFA is really for is to provide access to a group of like-minded people, and not to teach anything like mastery, even of a first step and a few tools, at all. The underlying question seems to be what is a master of fine arts master of, really? Helen's and Amber's and your answer seems to be something along the lines of: "Not much -- but the process of getting one is personally empowering." Finnegan: > I challenge you to find that poor dupe of a character you've suggested > who gets lured into an MFA program and expects to come out > the other side elbow to elbow with Billy, Adrienne, Charles, etc....<< Well I suspect that to some extent everyone who is in an MFA-in- writing-poetry program expects to come out the other side with a good deal more than they entered in with or they wouldn't do it in the first place -- unless you are suggesting that they are all clear- sighted cynics who are only in it for the good companionship of the moment and the right to add letters after their name even though they are no "better at it" when they are graduated than when they matriculate. Finnegan: > And, of course, the terms "superior" and "well-thought-of," > beg a question: By whom? What constituency?<< Very true -- but it seems to me that in such a general discussion we have to agree that there is either an over-arching "superior" and "well-thought-of" that all poets aspire to, or that there are a variety of stylistic venues within which devotees of those various styles aspire to superiority and reputation, or we can't very well talk about this sort of thing at all. Perhaps you're trying to say we can't reasonably talk about this sort of thing at all? Finnegan: > ... Anyone who has ever edited a magazine knows there are many > poets out there who could benefit, if they are capable of listening > to critcism, from a couple of years spent in a MFA program. > And, there are probably poets who would not benefit, and think > this is what Henry is suggesting. There are those who might, in > the wrong hands, under the wrong praxis, be made better writers > but worse poets. But I'd like to think that the best of our young > poets are like wild horses: They can't be broken easily. > They'll take a few carrots from your hand (feeding on what mentor > poets & peers might offer) but they'll never take the bit. << Well, I agree that there are lots of poets out there who could benefit, if they would listen to criticism, from any empathetic, systematic, intelligent examination of their work. But if you say that MFA programs provide such examinations (whether or not the poets can accept or use them) aren't you saying something about the standards that MFA programs use? Aren't you pretty much saying that there are some standards? Aren't you pretty much saying that there is such a thing as a "superior" poet and that such a poet would be "well-thought-of" at least in the context of that given MFA program? I am intrigued by the notion of "better writers but worse poets" because it implies such an interesting suggestion of your notion of what poets do. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Jan 21 10:15:18 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:15:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1203 - 10 msgs In-Reply-To: <20030121144402.326FF100E1@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121100252.00a99260@postoffice.brown.edu> > >With the respect due you, Henry: when I read your swiftly sketched, >uncomplicated, specious and thumbnail histories, or read leading questions >like the ones above (the answer to the last one, by the way, is yes -- and >anyway all were taught by professors), I am very thankful for "the >professoriate" -- they who take care to get the facts as straight as they >can, sincerely attempting to show and persuade, rather than mucking about, >asserting and foisting. > >In my experience, scholars and poet-scholars who've read widely and deeply >in a historical period come away with a strong sense of humility for the >material, the connections, and the complexities of issues such as, above, >the construction of taste and cultural influence. Issues that you treat >blithely, with great "intellectual" certitude and prejudicial abandon, true >scholars treat with great humility and thoroughness. Spoken with the all the patronizing authority of the true pedant, Gabriel. Nevertheless you don't address the issues under debate. Finnegan and others attacked an article by David Alpaugh in which he argued there had been a "revolution" in the academicizing of poetry during the 20th century, a new level of "professionalization" which one of your poet-profs, Robert Pinsky, acknowledged quite clearly in an essay published in "Situation of Poetry", I believe. I've been defending Alpaugh's argument. If you'd like to address any one of the points I've made, rather than name-calling, I'd be happy to take you on. Are you saying that the "tastemaking" over the last 500 years or so has mainly occurred in an academic setting, simply because many of the poets & critics who set standards through their works & their criticism, went to college at some point? Henry From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jan 21 10:26:30 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:26:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3E2D2056.18009.9F8EE4@localhost> jason huff wrote: > Ah, I love the MFA debate. What about those of us who get into a program in > order to study under a particular poet? Isn't that a good enough reason to > get into an MFA program? To find a mentor that you wish to study under? Well, sure -- but to what end? Just because you like the mentor personally? The real central questions here, it seems to me, what are the criteria by which the work is judged, and do MFA-in-Poetry- Writing programs succeed in teaching what those criteria are, and how to use them, in order to write better poems? It doesn't seem to me that the question is whether MFA programs attract groups of like- minded people. Of course they do -- the real question is what does the program offer those people beyond membership in a group of like- minded people? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 21 10:37:49 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:37:49 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Marsden Hartley: painter and poet Message-ID: <35.3297d1eb.2b5ec34d@aol.com> I had the opportunity to see an exhibit of Marsden Hartley's work at the Wadsworth Atheneum in Hartford this past weekend. I recommend seeing it to anyone who lives nearby. It runs in Hartford until April 30th. Then... Phillips Collection in Washington DC June 7 to Sept. 7, 2003 Nelson-Atkins in KC, Missouri Oct. 11 to Jan 11, 2004 The first painting in the show (& Hartley's first extant painting) is a little oil on board, 8"x10", of Walt Whitman's House, 328 Mickle Street, Camden, NJ. It's a lovely little thing...the piece would make a nice cover to Whitman book (but it is held in a private collection; however, the provenance states it was once used as a frontispiece). It goes without saying that Hartley was a great admirer of Whitman's poetry. Black Sparrow did a Collected Poems of Marsden Hartley a while back. I'm not sure if it's in print or whether Godine (who now owns most of the BSP list) will be ressurrecting the book. But now would be a good time to do so, given this traveling exhibit. Hartley knew Hart Crane; and one painting in the show is an homage to Crane painted after Crane's suicide. Hartley was also part of the group of artists that Stieglitz supported and showed. And, there is an essay Hartley wrote with the intriquing title of "Whitman and Cezanne." I hope to track it down; it's collected in his book Adventures in the Arts. Later in his life Hartley asserted that he wanted to be known as the THE painter of Maine. An ambitious undertaking given that so many artists have tested themselves against that severe and heart-wreaking landscape. He also stated, in a letter, something to the effect of wanting his name tied to Mt. Katahdin the way Cezanne is forever associated with, having almost been granted a proprietary interest in, Mont St Victoire. I'll post a poem that was featured in the show, and that relates to his return to Maine late in his life. The Mickle St. painting is not particularly representative of the body of work Hartley created...most of the work is larger, boldly colored, outlined heavily: representational expressionism. The exhibition catalog is edited by Eliz. Mankin Kornhauser. You can see some Harttley works online via http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/hartley_marsden.html Finnegan From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Jan 21 10:37:43 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 09:37:43 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] tired polemics In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121090038.00aad3b0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030121085229.01ba38a0@mail.ilstu.edu> >Now that I've made all the MFA candidates & graduates feel bad. . . Henry, my apologies: the tone that you call patronizing in my last message was merely impatience. You are broaching issues that most good teachers think about daily -- many of whom have tried to understand thoroughly -- and have done a lot of reading -- and in some cases, writing -- about . ANd the way you broach them is in the manner of a polemicist -- in your words, polarizing and simplistic. I"m sure you haven't made anyone with an MFA reading your posts feel bad. It's obvious (to me, at least) reading your posts that you don't understand what goes on in an MFA program or what goes on in most English depts for that matter. You've made straw men monoliths and dichotomies that are just-- in your terms -- polarizing and simplified: World vs. University; world of poetry, world of school. Your arguments wouldn't fly in a sophomore level class, are based not on first-hand -- or even on reading -- but on prejudice. Have you read Gerald Graff and David G. Myers on these issues? They're helpful. Of course, these historians of literature and creative writing in English departments are, well, academics -- and maybe that makes them suspicious. Your posts read, sorry, but like someone who's not read much (literary history OR poetry) or ever tried -- or wants to try -- to understand the complexity of literary history. As I said earlier, your posts make me very thankful for "the professoriate" -- they who take care to get the facts as straight as they can, sincerely attempting to show and persuade, rather than mucking about, asserting and foisting. In my experience, scholars and poet-scholars who've read widely and deeply in a historical period come away with a strong sense of humility for the material, the connections, and the complexities of issues such as, above, the construction of taste and cultural influence (which you of course appoint to canonical poets -- canons, by the way, made in the academy). Issues that you treat blithely, with great "intellectual" certitude and prejudicial abandon, true scholars treat with great humility and thoroughness. You are a polemicist, not a historian. Call that patronizing, if you have to, but if you haven't even read the histories that treat of precisely the issues your talking about, I'll risk the tone. Gabe Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 21 10:38:04 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:38:04 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Marsden Harttley poem Message-ID: <185.15896596.2b5ec35c@aol.com> The Return of the Native Rock, juniper and wind and a seagull sitting still-- all those of one mind. He who finds will to come home will surely find old faith made new again, a lavish welcome. Old things breaketh new, when heart and soul lose no whit of old refrain, it is a smiling festival when rock, juniper and wind are of one mind; a seagull signs the bond-- makes what was broken, whole. --Marsden Harttley From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Jan 21 10:45:16 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 10:45:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] tired polemics In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030121085229.01ba38a0@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121090038.00aad3b0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121104245.00aa85f0@postoffice.brown.edu> Beg to differ, Gabriel. Trumpeting the wisdom of the "great academic authorities" by way of a general put-down does not address the points made, but certainly is one of the oldest polemic-tricks in the book.. Saying "I don't understand" does not address them. You have not engaged in the debate. You are merely name-calling. Henry From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 21 11:30:44 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:30:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalization of Poetry I Message-ID: In a message dated 1/21/03 9:59:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > I am intrigued by the notion of "better writers but worse poets" > because it implies such an interesting suggestion of your notion of > what poets do. I too doubt that there is "one course" to follow if one wants to become a poet. Certainly not one course that fits all poets-to-be. My point at the beginning of this thread was that Alpaugh hasn't made anything like a well-grounded argument against following the MFA route. The distinction I'm making above it is an echo of what others have said (perhaps what you or Henry believe); that there is an element to making art that can't be taught. I'm certainly romantic enough to believe there is an "it" that the artist brings with him/her or she/he finds along the way. A good teacher might be able to help the student find it, but he/she really can't teach it. Possibly, the wrong kind of teacher (& I'm not saying that this person is anything more than fiction for the sake of argument) will tame some essential wildness, breeding out the student's poems traits that made the poetry unique, in the name of improving the writing or making it more acceptable to publication. However, with the wide range of writers programs available, and the diverse (aesthetically, as well as ethnically) teaching staffs that many of these programs employ, and with my limited knowledge of few teacher poets and the methods they employ, the fear that these naive young will all become clones, all making one one-kind of poem/poetry, strikes me as something of an absurd conspiracy theory (Alpaugh's). Little vignette: A number of years ago, a person I knew who had completed an MFA at Washington U, was doing a private/non-affiliated workshop with the poet Joel Oppenheimer (I hope I've got the right name. I think he's since passed away.) Anyway, at the end of the workshop sessions, he tells her: Your poetry has been workshopped enough...stop going to these things. Go write your poetry. (I think she took it took it to heart; but it's not a good way to get repeat business. I doubt someone like Julia Cameron, who runs those "Artist's Way" workshops and refresher courses for money, discourages customer retention in such a fashion.) Finnegan From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Jan 21 11:31:14 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:31:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] polemics Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121111853.00aac760@postoffice.brown.edu> If you can label public debate "polemics", and accuse the debaters of superficiality simply because they do not quote the proper authorities, we might as well hang up our track shoes. The pedants have won. All you need to do is name-drop:: "Graff", "Whosis". . . & you win. Well, I'll drop some names then - here are some non-professional authorities: Dickinson Whitman Eliot Crane WC Williams Pound Yeats Shakespeare (which school was he affiliated with again?) Marlowe Keats Wordsworth Milton Baudelaire Mandelstam Tsvetaeva Akhmatova Villon Stevens Blake Donne Dante (where did he teach again? I think maybe he did some private tutoring) Were any of them MFA grads or MFA profs? More likely they had the kind of training I advocated in my first post on this thread - an integrated program of learning poetry along with other modes of writing from elementary school. Henry From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jan 21 11:41:49 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:41:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] prof of po In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121090038.00aad3b0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3E2D31FD.16128.E485B9@localhost> Henry Gould wrote: > ... I wasn't saying that the academy is not a place for gatekeeping, > judging, preserving "highbrow" works. But that's not what this debate is > about anyway. It's about how & where good poetry & criticism > originates. That's why I thought it worth mentioning the centuries of > "tastemakers" situated outside the academy.<< Well perhaps we're not so far apart on this. I don't insist that it must be "the academy" that judges and preserves "highbrow" works; I only say that there is always some educated elite that _does_ judge and preserve works of art, call it what you will. It only happens to be in our age and place that the university system is so ubiquitous and rich; in other ages it was other mechanisms: monasteries, royal courts, rich patrons, churches, reviews and magazines, salons, and the like. But all those variously-constituted educated elites function in roughly the same way vis-a-vis art: they judge and preserve according to their tastes, and each was the dominant way in which works of art were judged and preserved or discarded in their day. You seem to agree that there is and must be such a mechanism but that that mechanism is not all there is to a "life of poetry". I don't disagree with that, either. But you go further and say that the "life of poetry ... is not subject to ... the critical authority of institutional networks" and I think that that is not the case. It seems to me that, whatever "the institutional networks" are called that claim the critical authority to which you refer, the "life of poetry" is certainly subject to them insofar as the artifacts of that life, the poems themselves, are available to be judged by those institutional networks. You may be claiming essentially what Helen and Amber seem to be claiming: that the process, and the other people who are also enjoying the process, is what is important, and the artifacts, and the quality of the artifacts, are not as important. Is that a fair summary of your claim, or are you claiming something else? Henry Gould: > ...Nor do I want to polarize/simplify the > situation: I'm not saying there aren't poets who can't straddle both > worlds. What I AM saying is that this "world of poetry" - the general > world of fame/obscurity, private/public life - is NOT EXACTLY THE SAME as > the world of school. This is the illusion that the MFA industry sometimes > projects, & I think Alpaugh et al. have a legitimate critique to make.<< Well, I think Alpaugh has a legitimate critique to make, too. And I agree that there is a "world of poetry" that is not exactly the same as the world of school. But I disagree that the "world of school" (by which I take you to mean the world of judging whether poets and poems are good or bad, or better or not so good), "... is not subject to ... the critical authority of institutional networks". I think it _is_ subject to that critical authority, but also that that "world of poetry" also influences that critical authority and changes it. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 21 11:57:05 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 08:57:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Does Poetry Matter? Message-ID: <20030121165705.27771.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Found this on the Poems.com news page. Jeff Newberry Rhyme time: Poetry's in motion toward more recognition By JOHN MARK EBERHART The Kansas City Star Attention, you poets, you bards, you madmen; hark, you readers of verse, you lovers of ditties, you suckers for simile; listen up, all you cracked people who believe poetry matters: These days, you might be right. Poetry's hour seems to have come 'round again. HBO's popular "Def Poetry Jam" series has become a Broadway show. Literary journals that can print 350 poems a year are getting 90,000 submissions. And while the publishing industry continues to struggle in the wake of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, poetry collections are selling better than ever. All this for a genre that even 10 years ago seemed to be dying, or living on only in academic circles, its audiences dwindling. Is renaissance too strong a word for what's happening now? "Not at all," said Deborah Garrison, a former New Yorker editor and now the poetry editor for publisher Alfred A. Knopf. "In a much darker world at large, there's a need for something that speaks to the heart." Paul Bogaards, Knopf's executive director of publicity, said the publisher sells about 250,000 copies of poetry volumes annually and estimates that poetry sales have grown 15 percent to 20 percent in the last five years. Meanwhile, Bogaards said, fiction -- novels, story collections -- is hurting. "Some (big-name) fiction authors are experiencing an erosion of sales of 10 to 30 percent," Bogaards said. "It's been a tough (year and a half) for our business. That's why the news about poetry is such an affirmation." Chicago's respected Poetry magazine, founded in 1912, receives 90,000 poem submissions per year, and can use 300 to 350. In the early '90s, the figure was about 60,000, senior editor Stephen Young said. (In a vote of confidence of another sort, billionaire pharmaceutical heiress Ruth Lilly recently bequeathed a huge sum of money to Poetry.) It's the same story at New Letters, published at the University of Missouri-Kansas City, where editor Robert Stewart can print 150 poems a year but sees more than 30,000 poems annually; 20 years ago, he said, the quarterly journal saw "one quarter to half of that, at most." So more people are reading and writing poetry. But why now? "Maybe it's just dumb luck," said Kansas City poet William Peck. "It could be that, lately, poetry has come into fashion a little bit. To be honest with you, I do think that's part of it." Peck also thinks "the rise of musical forms like rap have made lyrical content more important to people." In other words, the hipness of hip-hop transfers to poetry. At 9 p.m. the first Sunday of each month, Peck is host for the Westport Poetry Slam. Some nights, more than 100 people press into Stanford and Sons at 504 Westport Road to hear poets belt out the word. It ain't no lecture hall. The language can be raw. Tempers can flare. "We make 'em cringe sometimes," Peck said. "You can get up there and say anything you want, and I'm not going to stop you, because I am very much against censorship. But people may not like what you say. You may get up there and start doing some pro-choice poem, and if you've got strong pro-life people in the crowd ... you're taking a real chance you might get a hostile reaction." But that's always been one of poetry's roles: To challenge, not just comfort -- as when Langston Hughes lashed out in verse against racism. U.S. poet laureate Billy Collins thinks poetry is more accessible now than in previous decades. "We're still in a recovery mode at this point," Collins said in a recent interview. "And (one thing) readers are recovering from (is) ... high modernism. The leaders of that movement were people like Wallace Stevens, T.S. Eliot, Ezra Pound and Hart Crane, who were moving poetry away from its Victorian frilliness and trying to write a poetry that was more in tune with the times, which were very unsettled times. "So there came to be a connection between difficulty and value. If you went to school during the period those poets were in their ascent, you basically had to deal with extremely difficult poetry, and I think we're still recovering from that." Which isn't to say that poetry is being dumbed down. Young and Stewart think their literary journals receive more poetry now partly because of the emergence of strong postgraduate writing programs across the nation. Said Young: "In my 15 years at Poetry, submissions have increased 50 percent, but the general quality of the poems has risen, too." There's another factor, too: Technology. "It has allowed poets to mass-market their work," Stewart said. Before computers and desktop publishing, New Letters would see a group of poems from a poet, then that poet might send the work somewhere else if New Letters didn't nibble. Now, Stewart said, poets easily can send out multiple submissions to multiple magazines. Off the page Poetry was once predominantly oral: Bards performed poems; often, they were accompanied by music. But the more dominant the written form became, the more poetry was confined to the page. Few have done more to push poetry back off that page than comedic impresario Russell Simmons and his partner, producer/director/co-conceiver Stan Lathan. The pair created "Def Poetry Jam" and made it a hit on HBO. The series features edgy poets who shout out verses that are fresh and immediate. Last November, Simmons and Lathan launched "Def Poetry Jam on Broadway," a production starring nine poets with names like "Black Ice" and "Lemon" who declaim in-your-face verses about subjects personal and political. Lathan said he and Simmons brought an ongoing phenomenon to wider attention. "One thing Russell and I make clear is that we didn't discover anything; we exposed it to a larger audience. There's always been poetry performed in coffeehouses and things like that, but over the last 10 years or so, there's been a proliferation of clubs where poetry nights happen on a regular basis. "And then the phenomenon of the slams came along, which are essentially poetry competitions. In those, the performance element became more important, because in order to win a slam, you'd have to not only write a great poem but perform it with a certain amount of energy and excitement." The Broadway production tries to reflect that fervent spirit by changing with the times, Lathan said. Since the show opened, several poems have morphed to follow current events. A poem called "Terrorist Threat" -- already heavy on nervy political humor -- "has been adjusted to include some of the Trent Lott faux pas." Despite all the attention, is poetry really a "mainstream" art form now? Some are believers. Some are skeptics. Garrison, Knopf's poetry editor, is a believer. For one thing, she said, poetry has been more visible in the wake of Sept. 11, 2001. "After Sept. 11, I didn't say, `Oh, I feel like going to the ballet,' " Garrison said. "And I'm not dissing the ballet. But poetry captures an essence of feelings of all kinds. People were e-mailing poems around the country. Poetry is weirdly utilitarian, because it's so distilled -- in less than five minutes, you can read a poem and have an experience." Knopf's stable of poets -- stellar names such as Sharon Olds, Anthony Hecht and John Updike -- is having success in print. Five years ago, selling 1,000 copies of a poetry book was a feat. But Knopf is seeing numbers two and three times that level for some titles. Ann Volin is one of those who are more skeptical about poetry's impact. Volin reserves judgment because she works on the front lines -- teaching poetry at the University of Kansas, striving to get students interested in verse. "It's pretty unanimous that they think music has taken over the role as the art form that speaks for their generation," Volin said. "They do see the connection between song lyrics and poetry, but poetry itself is not as important. But I do think there has been some warming up, and some of that comes from music and rap lyrics." Volin does her part to bring poetry's rowdier side into the classroom. Each semester, she convenes a poetry panel with invited speakers that have included Peck, the man behind the Westport slam. Last November, as the nation rumbled with talk of war with Iraq, Peck faced an auditorium of students with a new poem he had written -- a rip-snorter called "Oh, say, can you see?" It was an overtly political piece, seemingly critical of not only war in general but also the current administration in particular. Peck barreled through it, reciting from memory. The words tore through the room, but at the end ... silence. For a moment. Then a student in the front row gave a whoop. Not the kind of sound one usually hears in "the academy." But that's the sound of poetry: The conviction of one soul that provokes, in another, a shout of recognition. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trbell at comcast.net Tue Jan 21 15:36:04 2003 From: trbell at comcast.net (tombell) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:36:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Does Poetry Matter? References: <20030121165705.27771.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <144a01c2c18c$b8f8f1e0$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> another fascinating bit of USAcentricity? poetry is starting to make money so it matters? tom bell Rhyme time: Poetry's in motion toward more recognition By JOHN MARK EBERHART The Kansas City Star Attention, you poets, you bards, you madmen; hark, you readers of verse, you lovers of ditties, you suckers for simile; listen up, all you cracked people who believe poetry matters: These days, you might be right. Poetry's hour seems to have come 'round again. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From luap at mallasch.com Tue Jan 21 12:08:22 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:08:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Does Poetry Matter? In-Reply-To: <144a01c2c18c$b8f8f1e0$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> Message-ID: corporate poetry still sucks... -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, tombell wrote: > another fascinating bit of USAcentricity? poetry is starting to make money so it matters? > > tom bell > > > Rhyme time: Poetry's in motion toward more recognition > > By JOHN MARK EBERHART > The Kansas City Star > > > Attention, you poets, you bards, you madmen; hark, you readers of verse, you lovers of ditties, you suckers for simile; listen up, all you cracked people who believe poetry matters: These days, you might be right. > > Poetry's hour seems to have come 'round again. > From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 21 12:19:11 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:19:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Marsden Hartley poem (name corrected) Message-ID: <137.19b5ee0c.2b5edb0f@aol.com> Sorry for posting this again, but I had to delete that extra 't' that snuck into his name.... > The Return of the Native > > Rock, juniper and wind > and a seagull sitting still-- > all those of one mind. > He who finds will > to come home > will surely find old faith > made new again, > a lavish welcome. > > Old things breaketh > new, when heart and soul > lose no whit of old refrain, > it is a smiling festival > when rock, juniper and wind > are of one mind; > a seagull signs the bond-- > makes what was broken, whole. > > --Marsden Hartley From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Jan 21 12:19:17 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:19:17 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] polemics In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121111853.00aac760@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030121111415.01b44ac8@mail.ilstu.edu> Henry, you're being foolish. The name is Gerald Graff and I don't mention it to just drop a name. I mention it because if you'd have read him -- or anyone really -- about the history of the professionalization of literature, you'd see that in America the first English Dept was founded in 1876. Eliot came from a family of professors and himself was a professor -- at Princeton's Institute for Advanced STudies. Pound thought of himself as a philologist and though a vigorous thinker he was a terrible philologist. It's a new phenomenon. All you ever do is list names. Names that have been compiled, mostly, by academics. You're arguing the case of academics and you don't even know it. Gabe At 11:31 AM 1/21/2003 -0500, Henry Gould wrote: >If you can label public debate "polemics", and accuse the debaters of >superficiality simply because they do not quote the proper authorities, we >might as well hang up our track shoes. The pedants have won. All you >need to do is name-drop:: "Graff", "Whosis". . . & you win. > >Well, I'll drop some names then - here are some non-professional authorities: > >Dickinson >Whitman >Eliot >Crane >WC Williams >Pound >Yeats >Shakespeare (which school was he affiliated with again?) >Marlowe >Keats >Wordsworth >Milton >Baudelaire >Mandelstam >Tsvetaeva >Akhmatova >Villon >Stevens >Blake >Donne >Dante (where did he teach again? I think maybe he did some private tutoring) > >Were any of them MFA grads or MFA profs? More likely they had the kind of >training I advocated in my first post on this thread - an integrated >program of learning poetry along with other modes of writing from >elementary school. > >Henry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Jan 21 12:37:33 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 11:37:33 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] polemics In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121111853.00aac760@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030121113349.01bd1d88@mail.ilstu.edu> HG said, "If you can label public debate "polemics", and accuse the debaters of superficiality" Henry, two things: 1, if you'd read my posts, you'd see that my comments were not directed at anyone else on the professionalization thread, but at you; 2, I didn't call names but told you that it's apparent to me you've not read much history about the professionalization of literature and that you don't seem to know much about what goes on in English Depts and that you don't know much about MFA programs. At 11:31 AM 1/21/2003 -0500, Henry Gould wrote: >If you can label public debate "polemics", and accuse the debaters of >superficiality simply because they do not quote the proper authorities, we >might as well hang up our track shoes. The pedants have won. All you >need to do is name-drop:: "Graff", "Whosis". . . & you win. > >Well, I'll drop some names then - here are some non-professional authorities: > >Dickinson >Whitman >Eliot >Crane >WC Williams >Pound >Yeats >Shakespeare (which school was he affiliated with again?) >Marlowe >Keats >Wordsworth >Milton >Baudelaire >Mandelstam >Tsvetaeva >Akhmatova >Villon >Stevens >Blake >Donne >Dante (where did he teach again? I think maybe he did some private tutoring) > >Were any of them MFA grads or MFA profs? More likely they had the kind of >training I advocated in my first post on this thread - an integrated >program of learning poetry along with other modes of writing from >elementary school. > >Henry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 21 12:48:47 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:48:47 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler's webcast, Dubya B Yates & typos in NYTimes Message-ID: <120.1cab61c9.2b5ee1ff@aol.com> I've come to expect typos (also missing/misplaced words & grammatical lapses) as a fact of my online life. Rimbaud said he came to understand the chaos of his mind as sacred...and that's always heartened me. Though whether it's chaos of the mind or carelessness is arguable. The NY Times had listed this Vendler webcast as being a tribute to William Butler "Yates." So the god of typos striketh at the heart of even the mighty. That's a long way of saying that this might be of interest... WEDNESDAY 22 JANUARY 2003 HELEN VENDLER William Butler Yeats tribute Click here to read about Helen Vendler This event will be live webcast at http://lannan.org/webcasts --- Finnegan From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Jan 21 13:13:38 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:13:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] polemics In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030121111415.01b44ac8@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121111853.00aac760@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121130257.00ab0cb0@postoffice.brown.edu> Here we go again, Gabriel. You don't make arguments - you just say, "you're being foolish", or, "if you had read Graff, you'd know". Those are not arguments. To say that Eliot taught at Princeton briefly in his old age, or that Pound "thought of himself as a philologist", has very little to do with the issues we've been discussing here. Thank you for the info about the date of the founding of the 1st English Dept., though. I'll add it to my stash of useless knowledge. Henry From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Jan 21 13:17:34 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:17:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] polemics In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030121113349.01bd1d88@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121111853.00aac760@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121131419.00aa9bb0@postoffice.brown.edu> Thanks much, Gabriel. I still don't see, though, how your opinions about my alleged state of knowledge of various things adds to this discussion one way or another. Henry Gabriel wrote: >Henry, two things: 1, if you'd read my posts, you'd see that my comments >were not directed at anyone else on the professionalization thread, but at >you; 2, I didn't call names but told you that it's apparent to me you've >not read much history about the professionalization of literature and that >you don't seem to know much about what goes on in English Depts and that >you don't know much about MFA programs. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Jan 21 13:31:39 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 12:31:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] an essay In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121130257.00ab0cb0@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030121111415.01b44ac8@mail.ilstu.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20030121111853.00aac760@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030121122407.01b43d28@mail.ilstu.edu> Henry, you're not debating -- adn I was pointing that out. You're denouncing. You want me to make "an argument." I wont' do that, but I'll offer you an essay about the history of creative writing. It's a bit stilted, but it's an attempt to understand something of the intellectual history of some ideas regarding poetics since the rise of creative writing. http://www.flashpointmag.com/guddin~1.htm The point that I tried, poorly, to make by bringing up the date of the first English dept was that the professionalization of lit is a recent phenomenon -- so your list back to Dante isn't going to show anything except that folks been writing literature for long time. gg At 01:13 PM 1/21/2003 -0500, Henry Gould wrote: >Here we go again, Gabriel. You don't make arguments - you just say, >"you're being foolish", or, "if you had read Graff, you'd know". Those >are not arguments. To say that Eliot taught at Princeton briefly in his >old age, or that Pound "thought of himself as a philologist", has very >little to do with the issues we've been discussing here. Thank you for >the info about the date of the founding of the 1st English Dept., >though. I'll add it to my stash of useless knowledge. > >Henry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From Henry_Gould at Brown.EDU Tue Jan 21 13:43:41 2003 From: Henry_Gould at Brown.EDU (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:43:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] prof of po In-Reply-To: <3E2D31FD.16128.E485B9@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121090038.00aad3b0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121131745.00ab35c0@postoffice.brown.edu> >Marcus wrote: >It seems to me that, whatever "the institutional networks" are called >that claim the critical authority to which you refer, the "life of >poetry" is certainly subject to them insofar as the artifacts of that >life, the poems themselves, are available to be judged by those >institutional networks. You may be claiming essentially what Helen >and Amber seem to be claiming: that the process, and the other people >who are also enjoying the process, is what is important, and the >artifacts, and the quality of the artifacts, are not as important. Is >that a fair summary of your claim, or are you claiming something >else? I'm claiming something else, Marcus. The claim is that poetry is a particular form of verbal expression which combines artistry with communication. Actually, I tried to specify how they combine in an essay called "What is Form", posted to my blog on Jan. 6 (http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com). One of the consequences of this combination is something you could call originality or "newness". Newness is the news which poetry brings. The manifestation of a new work of art is shall we say ontologically prior to its interpretations, its paraphrases, its analysis or evaluation. This newness is what the reader is searching for in his or her search for aesthetic experience. It is an experience which to a certain degree replicates the experience of the poet who produces the work. The experience (poet/poem/reader) is new, unmediated, free. This is not to say that it is without context, or that aesthetic experience cannot be encouraged or trained, or that such unmediated experience is not preceded by the mediations provided by education, or that such experience is not followed by the process of critical evaluation. But what I am saying is that the aesthetic experience is a free process which takes place in the arena of culture at large, among ordinary readers; and that the poet naturally seeks an audience who will replicate the original free process of composition, rather than an audience mediated by a professor's prior judgement; and that, with Alpaugh, I think that the institutionalization & artificial protection of poetry within the walls of the academy has negative as well as positive consequences. The conceit & caution & calculated pettiness of academic poetry can stultify the free relation between poet & contemporary society. Henry From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Jan 21 13:53:24 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 13:53:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] an essay In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030121122407.01b43d28@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121130257.00ab0cb0@postoffice.brown.edu> <5.1.1.6.0.20030121111415.01b44ac8@mail.ilstu.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20030121111853.00aac760@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121134458.00aac100@postoffice.brown.edu> I've already read your article, long ago. I'm not as unread as you think. Alpaugh's argument also, which I was defending, was that the institutionalization of poetry is a recent phenomenon. So how does your pointing out that the professionalization of literature is a recent phenomenon negate that argument? As I recall, your essay reviews how English Departments institutionalized certain stylistic & rhetorical requirements, which ended up influencing how poetry got written. Perhaps such activity was a prelude to the actual instauration of Creative Writing, starting with the standards set by the poetry textbooks promulgated at mid-century. But I still don't see how that negates what I've been arguing, or shows how ill-read I am. If anything, it supports the argument that academic influence on the life of poetry can wax or wane, and that for the last 5 decades or so it's been on the wax. Henry >The point that I tried, poorly, to make by bringing up the date of the >first English dept was that the professionalization of lit is a recent >phenomenon -- so your list back to Dante isn't going to show anything >except that folks been writing literature for long time. gg From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Jan 21 15:09:04 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 14:09:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87042@mail.ripon.edu> Henry Gould: << institutionalization of poetry is a recent phenomenon. > To add to an earlier point that I didn't notice anyone picking up on-- Recent or not, such "institutionalization" as has occurred in the poetry world ought to be understood in its full complexity. My original objection to Alpaugh's generally shoddy argument included stressing two facts he consistently ignores or downplays: a) The Academy is not a monolith. A world of difference between the MFA world he rails against and the rest of the Academy, where most of us academics actually live, and where most of the teaching occurs. b) If the statistics Alpaugh cites are anything near accurate (I believe they probably are) *most* poets-with-MFAs do not teach in universities or colleges, certainly not in MFA programs. Of those who do teach, they're quite often not teaching creative writing. In fact, a large proportion of MFA grads probably don't teach at any level--there just aren't enough jobs out there. It'd be interesting to know just what they're all up to, to have some actual facts brought forward. In any case, bringing (a) and (b) together and looking at Alpaugh's argument, it strikes me that he's arguing, for the most part, against a straw man--as if the whole poetry world resembled the view out Marvin Bell's window at Iowa. It simply doesn't. Many academic poets would probably kill for the view from Marvin Bell's window, but in fact we see a very different landscape. Alpaugh's essay is starker than most in this particular oversimplification, but I've seen it often in such essays, so I thought it was a point worth underlining. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Jan 21 15:29:05 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:29:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87042@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121151841.00aaf260@postoffice.brown.edu> David Graham wrote: >a) The Academy is not a monolith. A world of difference between the MFA >world he rails against and the rest of the Academy, where most of us >academics actually live, and where most of the teaching occurs. Wasn't this part of Alpaugh's own "shoddy" argument - that MFA programs were isolated from academic study in general? I think this was a point he himself brought forward. > >David continued: >b) If the statistics Alpaugh cites are anything near accurate (I believe >they probably are) *most* poets-with-MFAs do not teach in universities or >colleges, certainly not in MFA programs. Of those who do teach, they're >quite often not teaching creative writing. In fact, a large proportion of >MFA grads probably don't teach at any level--there just aren't enough jobs >out there. It'd be interesting to know just what they're all up to, to have >some actual facts brought forward. While you're checking the numbers, see what the percentage of those teaching in the MFA programs graduated from similar programs themselves, or even from the same program. Look into how many were published by the same presses that published their teachers. Let's evaluate the system in its full complexity. Henry From CAConrad9 at aol.com Tue Jan 21 16:04:35 2003 From: CAConrad9 at aol.com (CAConrad9 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:04:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry OF COURSE AND OF COURSE NOT Message-ID: <1EEFE341.6D7A05CE.01F36A84@aol.com> Well, yes, OF COURSE there are those who go for MFAs in poetry because they feel the NEED for justification, the NEED to raise their self-esteem. yes, OF COURSE there are those who go simply because they LOVE poetry and want the experience of an academic setting for their exploration of poetry. maybe they feel comfortable in that setting, or whatever, who knows. yes, OF COURSE there are those like me, who HATE school, HATE loans, HATE someone presenting us with a list of books to read on their authority, etc., etc., etc. there is more than one way for poets to be elitists. going for an MFA may or may not do it. i have friends who went for MFAs, and it changed my mind about what it was all about. some people like that environment. some people are destroyed by it. some poets come out with poems flying out of them. some never write again. but besides all this, the programs can be an asset to a community. it certainly changed Philadelphia for the better, though i didn't want to admit it for some time. it's what you make it of course. it's how you approach it. the grotesque and the sublime can be approached or switched when approached, depending on the person and the intent. the only "should" i believe in is that everyone should do what the hell it is that's on their mind, disregarding what others may or may not think. live beyond embarrassment. if you fear elitism, it can reach out to wag a finger at you no matter whether MFAs exist or not. poetry is beyond elitism, so walk around with that for comfort. CAConrad from the sounds of Philadelphia From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Jan 21 16:13:29 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:13:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] complexities of prof of po Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121155011.00ab3330@postoffice.brown.edu> When I applied to college (undergraduate), I was rejected by almost all but my first choice, Brown. Brown accepted me because it had an active Creative Writing program and I sent writing samples rather than a college essay. (At least that's my theory: maybe instead they accepted me because they thought I would play soccer for them.) I had several writing mentors at Brown, the most important being Edwin Honig, who was one of the real pioneers of CW programs in the early 60s, and is the epitome of the scholar-poet. In a sense I am who I am, as a poet, because of poets being teachers in colleges. After a long hiatus, here I am back at Brown, working at an academic job in the library. Is this ironic, considering my defense of the Alpaugh argument? Is this a classic case of biting the hand? Rebelling in the gilded cage? Not really. Poetry and the life of poetry (as I described the poet/poem/reader relation) are sui generis, unique, characteristic. It's just as true to say that I went to Brown because I was a poet, as to say that I became a poet because of Brown. I was already writing prolifically by the age of 16, and editing the high school literary magazine. My writing samples got me into college. Furthermore, as I and Marcus have been asking: what is the purpose of writing programs? In my view, with respect to the life of poetry, the individual biography is ancillary to the role of poetry itself in culture at large. In other words, the literary experience of Henry Gould in college is not an end in itself, nor is the experience of anyone in any writing program an end in itself. Properly, the aim of the school experience should be to prepare for, not dominate, the life of poetry in the larger world. Alpaugh & others do a service by differentiating the academic from the actual, because that is exactly the boundary that institutional "creative writing" has tended to blur. & I would reiterate again and again that the benchmark for the actual life of poetry has been set, down through history, by individual poets, speaking directly to their contemporaries and their future readers, rather than by the institutional prestige structures set up as the keepers & gatekeepers of art. Henry From CAConrad9 at aol.com Tue Jan 21 16:52:47 2003 From: CAConrad9 at aol.com (CAConrad9 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 16:52:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] complexities of prof of po IRONIC? Message-ID: <4D0D6EEF.43F4D2E4.01F36A84@aol.com> >After a long hiatus, here I am back at Brown, > working at an academic job in the library. > > Is this ironic, considering my defense of the Alpaugh argument? Is this a > classic case of biting the hand? Rebelling in the gilded cage? > > Not really. Poetry and the life of poetry (as I described the > poet/poem/reader relation) are sui generis, unique, characteristic. Ironic? maybe it is to some. but does it matter? well, if it matters to YOU, than i guess it does. but are YOU happy Henry? are you enjoying poetry? are you writing poetry? are you reading it? that's what matters the most. and i liked how you closed the post explaining the goal MFA programs "should" be. that was nice, and helpful. whatever works to get you going for poetry! CAConrad From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jan 21 17:09:08 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 17:09:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] complexities of prof of po In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121155011.00ab3330@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3E2D7EB4.9979.2103D4C@localhost> Henry Gould: > ... what is the purpose of writing programs? ... Properly, > the aim of the school experience should be to prepare for, not dominate, > the life of poetry in the larger world. Alpaugh & others do a service by > differentiating the academic from the actual, because that is exactly the > boundary that institutional "creative writing" has tended to blur.<< Here I agree with you, and think this is the firmest ground on which you stand to defend Alpaugh's views. Henry Gould: > I would reiterate again and again that the benchmark for the actual > life of poetry has been set, down through history, by individual > poets, speaking directly to their contemporaries and their future > readers, rather than by the institutional prestige structures set > up as the keepers & gatekeepers of art. Well perhaps we can agree that the benchmarks for contemporary poetry are set by the poets; but the benchmarks for what is good and bad among older-than-contemporary is the clear province of the institutional prestige structures. Often, in fact, contemporary poets are in one kind of active rebellion or another against what is recent-but-not contemporary, as well as other contemporary, poetry and are not interested in preserving or making attempts to judge fairly that older poetry. Consequently poets generally leave the debate about the merits of non- contemporary poets to the institutional prestige folks, barring the occasional essay or claim of influence. There is a mutuality there that is the other side of the coin of the animosity between the two broad notions we're talking about, what is sometimes called the academy and the street, what you are calling the institutional prestige structures on the one hand and "the actual" or "the world of poetry" on the other. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Jan 21 20:57:32 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry_Gould at brown.edu) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 20:57:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] complexities of prof of po IRONIC? Message-ID: <200301220157.h0M1vWl04623@draco.services.brown.edu> CAConrad writes: > Ironic? maybe it is to some. but does it matter? > well, if it matters to YOU, than i guess it does. > > but are YOU happy Henry? > are you enjoying poetry? > are you writing poetry? > are you reading it? > > that's what matters the most. and i liked how you closed the post explaining the goal MFA programs "should" be. that was nice, and helpful. Henry responds: As long as it means something to you, CA - that's what really matters. Whether it means something in general - who can say? As long as it's helpful to YOU - that's nice. I'm glad for you. As for me, coming from a family of lawyers & judges, I'm happiest when I'm defending a difficult case (what Gabriel calls "polemics"). Henry From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Jan 22 00:15:04 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 23:15:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lit Plus Writ In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030120094032.00a1cb90@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: Barry, the main MFA program I can tout for its "academic" emphasis is the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, where I went long ago. There are others, I know, but not off the top of my head--it's been a while since I studied up on this, and I've lent my AWP program directory out to a student. At UMass the curriculum was 60 credit hours, with 30 of them being in the same sort of courses that the PhD students took: period surveys, major author seminars, etc. The rest were workshops and "thesis credits," which translated essentially into "writing time." One of the problems with the MFA degree, I think, is that there really isn't an accepted standard. One can get an MA or MFA in poetry for 30 credit hours, for example, at some schools; and sometimes more than half of *those* credits are in things like workshops and what might be called Po-Biz classes (magazine editing, reviewing, etc.) as opposed to traditional scholarly seminars. One of the things I liked most about UMass was the experience of those scholarly classes. On the other hand, the UMass program tended not to offer the kind of "craft" courses that some schools do--prosody, etc.--and I had to learn such things on my own. Anyway, things are all over the map, literally and figuratively. The Iowa Writers Workshop, I see by their web page, requires 48 credit hours, with half of them being workshops. Notre Dame is 36 hours, divided equally among workshops, literary courses, and tutorials--I don't know what happens in the tutorials. Complicating things further is the existence of the PhD with creative dissertation, offered by Iowa and other schools; and low-residency programs, which tend to follow a very different model altogether. When I'm advising students with writerly ambitions about possible grad programs, I always want to find out what they hope to accomplish--if they just want to take a couple years and write, maybe they should just do so, classroom or no. If they want to prepare to teach, then a different sort of program is called for. If a community of writers is what they're looking for, then the right city might be as important as the right program. The PhD option makes sense for some, though I'm not sure the degree is universally respected. And some (who are already teachers in the public school, e.g.) just need the credential, in which case exploring the low-residency option might be good. This isn't very specific, I'm sorry--best option, I think, is to get ahold of the AWP Guide to Writing Programs. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== At 12:01 PM 1/20/03 -0500, David Graham wrote of: an MFA program with a vigorous "academic" emphasis in addition to its "studio" side; and yes, they do exist. David, again and again students ask advice about just this sort of program (I went through one at Indiana U. years ago, and if it still exists I'd nudge prospective grad students there in a wink) -- but I've lost touch: could you mention a few of these places you have in mind where literary study on the M.A. model is combined with M.F.A.-style experience? on on, Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Jan 22 00:38:56 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 23:38:56 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lit Plus Writ In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030120094032.00a1cb90@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030121231747.01a09df8@mail.ilstu.edu> The Cornell MFA program is a 2 yr fully funded program with very few curricular requirements: one cw writing seminar each semester and at least (I think) two classes in addition -- in any field the student chooses (eg, bee-keeping, pottery, etc) and there's a foreign language exam in the last semester. The students are well funded, work the first year at EPOCH, attend a paid summer intern expository writing pedagogy program between their first and second years, and in their second year teach one writing seminar a semester. Afterward they're given a two year temporary lectureship, where they teach cw and comp at a 2/2 load while they look for a job. It allowed those interested in scholarship to do that, and those who weren't interested in that stuff much got to do what they liked best. Some of the MFAs use their electives to broaden their knowledge of poetics, poetry, or lit in a wider sense (prosody was a favorite class for a few in my cohort). The key idea is students take whatever classes keep them wired to write. CU used to have a joint MFA/PHD degree program but this program wasn't well designed and the students found it pretty hard going, like they were being pulled simultaneously in two directions. But generally Cornell is all about letting the student decide her tack. If she wants Old and Middle English, a little Latin, a class by Jonathan Monroe on the poetics of difference, a class on de Man by Jonathan Culler, well okay then, no sweat. If they want to take courses in entomology, that's okey dokey too. GAbe At 11:15 PM 1/21/2003 -0600, David Graham wrote: >Barry, the main MFA program I can tout for its "academic" emphasis is the >University of Massachusetts at Amherst, where I went long ago. There are >others, I know, but not off the top of my head--it's been a while since I >studied up on this, and I've lent my AWP program directory out to a student. > >At UMass the curriculum was 60 credit hours, with 30 of them being in the >same sort of courses that the PhD students took: period surveys, major >author seminars, etc. The rest were workshops and "thesis >credits," which translated essentially into "writing time." > >One of the problems with the MFA degree, I think, is that there really >isn't an accepted standard. One can get an MA or MFA in poetry for 30 >credit hours, for example, at some schools; and sometimes more than half >of *those* credits are in things like workshops and what might be called >Po-Biz classes (magazine editing, reviewing, etc.) as opposed to >traditional scholarly seminars. One of the things I liked most about >UMass was the experience of those scholarly classes. On the other hand, >the UMass program tended not to offer the kind of "craft" courses that >some schools do--prosody, etc.--and I had to learn such things on my own. > >Anyway, things are all over the map, literally and figuratively. The Iowa >Writers Workshop, I see by their web page, requires 48 credit hours, with >half of them being workshops. Notre Dame is 36 hours, divided equally >among workshops, literary courses, and tutorials--I don't know what >happens in the tutorials. > >Complicating things further is the existence of the PhD with creative >dissertation, offered by Iowa and other schools; and low-residency >programs, which tend to follow a very different model altogether. > >When I'm advising students with writerly ambitions about possible grad >programs, I always want to find out what they hope to accomplish--if they >just want to take a couple years and write, maybe they should just do so, >classroom or no. If they want to prepare to teach, then a different >sort of program is called for. If a community of writers is what they're >looking for, then the right city might be as important as the right >program. The PhD option makes sense for some, though I'm not sure the >degree is universally respected. And some (who are already teachers in >the public school, e.g.) just need the credential, in which case exploring >the low-residency option might be good. > >This isn't very specific, I'm sorry--best option, I think, is to get ahold >of the AWP Guide to Writing Programs. > > >==================================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >==================================================== > >At 12:01 PM 1/20/03 -0500, David Graham wrote of: > >an MFA program with a vigorous "academic" emphasis in addition to its >"studio" side; and yes, they do exist. > >David, again and again students ask advice about just this sort of program >(I went through one at Indiana U. years ago, and if it still exists >I'd nudge prospective grad students there in a wink) -- but >I've lost touch: could you mention a few of these places you have in mind >where literary study on the M.A. model is combined with M.F.A.-style >experience? > >on on, > >Barry > Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jan 22 03:27:24 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:27:24 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Prof of Po I References: <200301190407.h0J47Pv06812@perseus.services.brown.edu> <006901c2bfc7$ab6f7240$51bafea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <008101c2c1f0$18b40d00$62864cca@jross3> The craft of poetry can be taught to ANYONE, presupposing they have an interest in language. (One of the best Australian poets I know of ... hell, he'd be good on any country's register ... is illiterate, so being able to read is unnecessary.) As I noted in a previous email, it's the art part that's difficult for some, but with talented enough TEACHING, anyone can learn to write at least a competent poem. I know it's so -- I've done it ... with a hell of a lot of patience and dedication to the genre. I've discovered during my years of teaching that there are few bad students (except those who don't come to class and/or do assignments), just bad (uncommitted) teachers. However, if one sticks to the argument that poetry is somehow "loftier" than other genres and should be kept pure/sublime, there will end up being an awful lot of poetry floating around that is close to excrement. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 10:33 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] re: Prof of Po I > Yet > > if (poetry) it becomes a craft it's ruined. How do we deal with > > this paradox? I don't know. Maybe we don't deal with it > > at all. Poetry is the sacred beast, poetry is the > > center outside the circumference of the walls. Poetry > > must be learned ("the scholar's art") but it can't be > > taught. > > > > Henry > > That, I would think is true of everything. What CAN be taught? If I take a > woodworking class, will that be enough to make a master carpenter out of me? > It seems to me clear that while poetry cannot be taught, the craft of poetry > can, so let that be taught. But isn't a main Gioian argument that teaching > poetry is DETRIMENTAL? I can't see that. Anyone who comes to write bad > poetry because of the way he's been taught the craft of poetry would have > come to write bad poetry no matter what, because he plainly can't think for > himself, which is essential for any creative artist. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jan 22 06:52:10 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 19:52:10 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prof of Po I References: <200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <02bb01c2c20c$b54306a0$62864cca@jross3> Henry G. wrote: I see the "art of poetry" as occurring in a more liminal, embattled and dramatic space - the space of literary fame, critical controversy, public life, & contemporary events. Zan writes: Poetry has been, for several hundred years in fact, a "niche" market/audience. Yes, this makes it liminal in some senses, but not to those who live, breathe and eat the stuff. Besides, who determines what the so-called centre of the entire literary field is? The publishers? The Academie? The largely uneducated 'public' that you seem so anxious to engage with? The fact is the genre is no more sublime than any other, no more embattled (causing us to look some how more "noble" than writers in other genres? I think not!), certainly much less dramatic than that occurring in relation to national and international prizes of fiction. Our public and private lives are often quite uninteresting, unless we happen to dwell in a country where our physical liberty may be under threat for the writing of governmentally judged subversive work. Get off it, Henry!! We write poetry for any number of reasons, which varies quite a lot between practitioners. None of these reasons is 'wrong' or ignoble; they just ARE. Most of us couldn't be "professional poets" (earning our daily bread from the writing and publication thereof) if we wanted to -- the dividends ordinarily aren't enough to support one. Most are forced to earn money (Ah -- the bugbear of nobility ... NOT!! snort!!) some other way. Those of us fortunate enough to wander or make our way into the Academie/ teaching are at least able to spend our days amidst that we love so much: the use of language. That there will be people wanting to abuse that privilege for their own career/power base is about as inevitable as in any other profession -- we are all subject to hubris. Practically speaking, if we intend to make a living from writing and publishing poetry, we're mugs -- stupid as a box full of hair, I reckon. If we can't help but write it; if we need to do it BECAUSE we NEED to do it; then what better reason is there, no matter what other people think about what we do. "Efficient" communication with other people and the best way to do it is the province of rhetoric (and advertising) -- not to say it isn't a tool for our toolchest should we wish to be absolutely "clear" for the "common man" (whatever either of those terms 'mean'). And should we wish to better ourselves as practioners, be the best we can be without becoming arrogant or complacent, working with other writers through universities may be our best choice. This is as noble a pursuit as you are likely to come across. (Leave preaching to ministers and priests.) Zan From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jan 22 07:12:17 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:12:17 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry References: Message-ID: <034301c2c20f$830ed300$62864cca@jross3> Abso-bloody-lutely!! Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "jason huff" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry > > Ah, I love the MFA debate. What about those of us who get into a program in > order to study under a particular poet? Isn't that a good enough reason to > get into an MFA program? To find a mentor that you wish to study under? > > jason > > > > > > >From: "Marcus Bales" > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry > >Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:04:54 -0500 > > > >Amber Prentiss wrote: > > > I'm considering applying to an MFA program, not really to become a > >superior > > > or well-thought-of poet (and any poet is doing well to be thought of at > > > all), but to become better at it and, most importantly for me, to have a > > > writing community.<< > > > >Well, this is once again looking at the core of the question -- what > >is an MFA-in-Poetry-Writing _for_, after all? -- but when you say you > >want to get better at writing poems and I say > > > > > what MFA-in-Poetry-Writing students do in fact expect an MFA-in- > > > Poetry-Writing program to do, is make one a superior AND well- > > > thought-of poet -- or at least start one off on the path with the > > > proper tools. > > > >it seems to me we're saying at least partially the same thing: you > >speak of "becoming better at it" and I speak of "on the path with the > >proper tools". That looks to me as if it is at least close to the > >same thing. > > > >But of course neither your and my phrases say much about what we mean > >by "better at it". > > > >Amber Prentiss: > > > I think the great appeal of such a program is that you > > > can come from a place without a critical mass of writers and arrive in > >one > > > that does. And that, I think, is the key to what it's good for--putting > >you > > > in contact with other writers. << > > > >Well, I'm sure that that is so -- but I'm with Henry on this (I think > >he and I are saying the same thing here): that just bringing like- > >minded people together, while perhaps necessary, is simply not > >sufficient. Without a program that demands that the like-minded > >people get better, within a fairly clear notion of what "better" > >means in context, at what they are like-minded about, it is just as > >likely that those like-minded people will form self-congratulatory > >and, perhaps, very happy groups, but not that they will actually get > >"better at it". > > > > > And Henry said: > > > One of the main motivations for > > > starting an arts group called the Poetry Mission here in > > > Providence was my sense that, for the poets in the MFA programs > > > at Brown & the other colleges - both the teachers & the > > > students - there was a gap between the actual > > > local culture and the official poetry culture of the > > > schools. The Mission set up a number of readings & > > > events in the community, working outside the colleges > > > entirely. > > > >Amber Prentiss: > > > That's all well and good. But what about places where there's hardly any > > > poetry culture at all? > > > >Well, that's sad, and one imagines that there are a number of > >options: start your own community of poetry culture, move to where > >there is one, work on your own without an immediate one within the > >written one, or give up. But the notion that an MFA-in-Poetry-Writing > >program's main purpose is to create a place where like-minded people > >can enjoy one anothers' company argues strongly for Alpaugh's > >critique of such programs, and their results. > > > >Amber Prentiss: > > > ... And while I agree that bringing poetry > > > into the academy runs the danger of creating a totally alienated, > > > self-sustaining community of poets, publishers, and, to a certain > >extent, > > > jobs, it is up to the individual poet, really, whether to take advantage > >of > > > his or her newly found credentials and network or to let the work speak > >for > > > itself.<< > > > >Well, yes, it's up to the individual poet, but that still puts aside > >unanswered the question of what does it mean to "let the work speak > >for itself": what are the criteria by which the work is judged? > > > >And those are the real central questions here, it seems to me, what > >are the criteria by which the work is judged, and do MFA-in-Poetry- > >Writing programs succeed in teaching what those criteria are, and how > >to use them, in order to write better poems? It doesn't seem to me > >that the question is whether MFA programs attract groups of like- > >minded people. Of course they do -- the real question is what does > >the program offer those people beyond membership in a group of like- > >minded people? > > > > > > > > > >Marcus Bales > > > >marcus at designerglass.com > >http://www.designerglass.com > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jan 22 07:26:00 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:26:00 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] tired polemics References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030121085229.01ba38a0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <039401c2c211$6d68c310$62864cca@jross3> And I concur with this elegant indictment. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Gudding" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 11:37 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] tired polemics > > >Now that I've made all the MFA candidates & graduates feel bad. . . > > Henry, my apologies: the tone that you call patronizing in my last message > was merely impatience. You are broaching issues that most good teachers > think about daily -- many of whom have tried to understand thoroughly -- > and have done a lot of reading -- and in some cases, writing -- about . ANd > the way you broach them is in the manner of a polemicist -- in your words, > polarizing and simplistic. > > I"m sure you haven't made anyone with an MFA reading your posts feel bad. > It's obvious (to me, at least) reading your posts that you don't understand > what goes on in an MFA program or what goes on in most English depts for > that matter. You've made straw men monoliths and dichotomies that are > just-- in your terms -- polarizing and simplified: World vs. University; > world of poetry, world of school. Your arguments wouldn't fly in a > sophomore level class, are based not on first-hand -- or even on reading -- > but on prejudice. > > Have you read Gerald Graff and David G. Myers on these issues? They're > helpful. Of course, these historians of literature and creative writing in > English departments are, well, academics -- and maybe that makes them > suspicious. > > Your posts read, sorry, but like someone who's not read much (literary > history OR poetry) or ever tried -- or wants to try -- to understand the > complexity of literary history. As I said earlier, your posts make me very > thankful for "the professoriate" -- they who take care to get the facts as > straight as they can, sincerely attempting to show and persuade, rather > than mucking about, asserting and foisting. > > In my experience, scholars and poet-scholars who've read widely and deeply > in a historical period come away with a strong sense of humility for the > material, the connections, and the complexities of issues such as, above, > the construction of taste and cultural influence (which you of course > appoint to canonical poets -- canons, by the way, made in the academy). > Issues that you treat blithely, with great "intellectual" certitude and > prejudicial abandon, true scholars treat with great humility and thoroughness. > > You are a polemicist, not a historian. Call that patronizing, if you have > to, but if you haven't even read the histories that treat of precisely the > issues your talking about, I'll risk the tone. > > Gabe > > > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790 > office 309.438.5284 > home 309.828.8377 > > http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jan 22 07:36:34 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:36:34 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] polemics References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121111853.00aac760@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <03b601c2c212$e788fe70$62864cca@jross3> Henry, Henry ... sigh. If one is not informed re the history of poetry, one is doomed to make some awful assumptions/assertions which a well-argued case from someone properly grounded in that history could easily have prevented you making ... like NOW, for instance. Gabe was only making some suggestions in how you might remedy that situation. You might then be able to argue more cogently from those positions you disagree with, eh? And as an English Lit./Cultural Studies/Creative Writing tutor/teacher (alas, not this year), I must say I am sorely tried by some of your arguments. Gabe has pointed out that most of us affiliated with the Academy has ruminated on these topics and continue to do so ... Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Gould" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:31 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] polemics > If you can label public debate "polemics", and accuse the debaters of > superficiality simply because they do not quote the proper authorities, we > might as well hang up our track shoes. The pedants have won. All you need > to do is name-drop:: "Graff", "Whosis". . . & you win. > > Well, I'll drop some names then - here are some non-professional authorities: > > Dickinson > Whitman > Eliot > Crane > WC Williams > Pound > Yeats > Shakespeare (which school was he affiliated with again?) > Marlowe > Keats > Wordsworth > Milton > Baudelaire > Mandelstam > Tsvetaeva > Akhmatova > Villon > Stevens > Blake > Donne > Dante (where did he teach again? I think maybe he did some private tutoring) > > Were any of them MFA grads or MFA profs? More likely they had the kind of > training I advocated in my first post on this thread - an integrated > program of learning poetry along with other modes of writing from > elementary school. > > Henry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jan 22 07:44:51 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:44:51 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] polemics References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030121111415.01b44ac8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <03d401c2c214$0f6113f0$62864cca@jross3> You go for it, Gabe!! Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Gudding" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 1:19 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] polemics > Henry, you're being foolish. The name is Gerald Graff and I don't mention > it to just drop a name. I mention it because if you'd have read him -- or > anyone really -- about the history of the professionalization of > literature, you'd see that in America the first English Dept was founded in > 1876. Eliot came from a family of professors and himself was a professor -- > at Princeton's Institute for Advanced STudies. Pound thought of himself as > a philologist and though a vigorous thinker he was a terrible philologist. > It's a new phenomenon. > > All you ever do is list names. Names that have been compiled, mostly, by > academics. You're arguing the case of academics and you don't even know it. > > Gabe > > At 11:31 AM 1/21/2003 -0500, Henry Gould wrote: > >If you can label public debate "polemics", and accuse the debaters of > >superficiality simply because they do not quote the proper authorities, we > >might as well hang up our track shoes. The pedants have won. All you > >need to do is name-drop:: "Graff", "Whosis". . . & you win. > > > >Well, I'll drop some names then - here are some non-professional authorities: > > > >Dickinson > >Whitman > >Eliot > >Crane > >WC Williams > >Pound > >Yeats > >Shakespeare (which school was he affiliated with again?) > >Marlowe > >Keats > >Wordsworth > >Milton > >Baudelaire > >Mandelstam > >Tsvetaeva > >Akhmatova > >Villon > >Stevens > >Blake > >Donne > >Dante (where did he teach again? I think maybe he did some private tutoring) > > > >Were any of them MFA grads or MFA profs? More likely they had the kind of > >training I advocated in my first post on this thread - an integrated > >program of learning poetry along with other modes of writing from > >elementary school. > > > >Henry > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790 > office 309.438.5284 > home 309.828.8377 > > http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jan 22 08:09:44 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:09:44 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] complexities of prof of po References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121155011.00ab3330@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <040c01c2c217$897bbf20$62864cca@jross3> You know, Henry, Those of us who have been to university and chosen an academic life are not exactly naive, stupid or ruled by whatever institution we have been through or trained by. Whatever life most of us have as poets is perforce inside our heads interpreting, always interpreting. Actual events or jobs beyond have little to do with it, really, except to give us motifs, perhaps, or impetus. Anyway, the 'real' world is whatever world one is in ... as an individual writer ... it is our personal domain. That you applied to universities as a creative writer rather than as an English major is fine. BUT, and this is a huge but(t), universities (as opposed to technical colleges) are there to initiate one into the world of research and thinking, innovation, collation and making those judgemental/intuitive leaps on the basis of what is already known in our chosen field, that comprise the next step up the ladder (if we're lucky and don't just fall into the trap of regurgitation). Which is one big reason we should be as knowledgable as possible in our field: otherwise we just run around in circles, one foot nailed to the floor ... creatively speaking. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Gould" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:13 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] complexities of prof of po > When I applied to college (undergraduate), I was rejected by almost all but > my first choice, Brown. Brown accepted me because it had an active > Creative Writing program and I sent writing samples rather than a college > essay. (At least that's my theory: maybe instead they accepted me because > they thought I would play soccer for them.) I had several writing mentors > at Brown, the most important being Edwin Honig, who was one of the real > pioneers of CW programs in the early 60s, and is the epitome of the > scholar-poet. In a sense I am who I am, as a poet, because of poets being > teachers in colleges. After a long hiatus, here I am back at Brown, > working at an academic job in the library. > > Is this ironic, considering my defense of the Alpaugh argument? Is this a > classic case of biting the hand? Rebelling in the gilded cage? > > Not really. Poetry and the life of poetry (as I described the > poet/poem/reader relation) are sui generis, unique, characteristic. It's > just as true to say that I went to Brown because I was a poet, as to say > that I became a poet because of Brown. I was already writing prolifically > by the age of 16, and editing the high school literary magazine. My > writing samples got me into college. Furthermore, as I and Marcus have > been asking: what is the purpose of writing programs? In my view, with > respect to the life of poetry, the individual biography is ancillary to the > role of poetry itself in culture at large. In other words, the literary > experience of Henry Gould in college is not an end in itself, nor is the > experience of anyone in any writing program an end in itself. Properly, > the aim of the school experience should be to prepare for, not dominate, > the life of poetry in the larger world. Alpaugh & others do a service by > differentiating the academic from the actual, because that is exactly the > boundary that institutional "creative writing" has tended to blur. & I > would reiterate again and again that the benchmark for the actual life of > poetry has been set, down through history, by individual poets, speaking > directly to their contemporaries and their future readers, rather than by > the institutional prestige structures set up as the keepers & gatekeepers > of art. > > Henry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jan 22 08:17:16 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:17:16 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] complexities of prof of po IRONIC? References: <200301220157.h0M1vWl04623@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <044901c2c218$96d01c60$62864cca@jross3> I have no objection to a good analytical bunfight ... which you haven't been providing us with so far ... coming from a family of lawyers and judges, as you do. Where's the 'evidence' of what you've been touting? Without evidence, it's all circumstatial/polemics. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:57 AM Subject: Re: Re: [New-Poetry] complexities of prof of po IRONIC? > CAConrad writes: > > Ironic? maybe it is to some. but does it matter? > > well, if it matters to YOU, than i guess it does. > > > > but are YOU happy Henry? > > are you enjoying poetry? > > are you writing poetry? > > are you reading it? > > > > that's what matters the most. and i liked how you closed the post explaining the goal MFA programs "should" be. that was nice, and helpful. > > Henry responds: > As long as it means something to you, CA - that's what really matters. Whether it means something in general - who can say? As long as it's helpful to YOU - that's nice. I'm glad for you. > > As for me, coming from a family of lawyers & judges, I'm happiest when I'm defending a difficult case (what Gabriel calls "polemics"). > > Henry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Jan 22 09:22:15 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:22:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] polemics In-Reply-To: <03b601c2c212$e788fe70$62864cca@jross3> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030121111853.00aac760@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030122091942.00aaf900@postoffice.brown.edu> Is this what they taught you in college, Zan? Just shake your shingle & point to the Authorities & call your opponent ignorant? Oldest tricks in the book. Go for it, pedants. Henry At 08:36 PM 1/22/03 +0800, you wrote: >Henry, Henry ... sigh. If one is not informed re the history of poetry, one >is doomed to make some awful assumptions/assertions which a well-argued case >from someone properly grounded in that history could easily have prevented >you making ... like NOW, for instance. > >Gabe was only making some suggestions in how you might remedy that >situation. You might then be able to argue more cogently from those >positions you disagree with, eh? > >And as an English Lit./Cultural Studies/Creative Writing tutor/teacher >(alas, not this year), I must say I am sorely tried by some of your >arguments. Gabe has pointed out that most of us affiliated with the Academy >has ruminated on these topics and continue to do so ... > >Zan From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Jan 22 09:32:11 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:32:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prof of Po I In-Reply-To: <02bb01c2c20c$b54306a0$62864cca@jross3> References: <200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030122092311.00ab3ba0@postoffice.brown.edu> This is exactly the kind of safe, cozy conception of poetry that serves to keep it in its stultifying place(s). On the contrary, I understand poetry to be the technical vehicle for the highest modes of human expression, and the embattled drama surrounding the fame of its manifestations is a consequence of its cultural importance. Milton's ambition, Dante's "alta fantasia", Blake's fire, Shakespeare's achievement, Dickinson's power, Whitman's universality, Virgil's soul, the Psalmist's vision - these are the exemplars of the highest art, on a par with the greatest composers & artists. Poetry is not your toy, and the Word is no one's academic hobbyhorse. Henry At 07:52 PM 1/22/03 +0800, you wrote: >Henry G. wrote: >I see the "art of poetry" as occurring in a more liminal, embattled and >dramatic space - the space of literary fame, critical controversy, public >life, & contemporary events. > >Zan writes: >Poetry has been, for several hundred years in fact, a "niche" >market/audience. Yes, this makes it liminal in some senses, but not to >those who live, breathe and eat the stuff. Besides, who determines what the >so-called centre of the entire literary field is? The publishers? The >Academie? The largely uneducated 'public' that you seem so anxious to >engage with? > >The fact is the genre is no more sublime than any other, no more embattled >(causing us to look some how more "noble" than writers in other genres? I >think not!), certainly much less dramatic than that occurring in relation to >national and international prizes of fiction. Our public and private lives >are often quite uninteresting, unless we happen to dwell in a country where >our physical liberty may be under threat for the writing of governmentally >judged subversive work. > >Get off it, Henry!! We write poetry for any number of reasons, which varies >quite a lot between practitioners. None of these reasons is 'wrong' or >ignoble; they just ARE. Most of us couldn't be "professional poets" >(earning our daily bread from the writing and publication thereof) if we >wanted to -- the dividends ordinarily aren't enough to support one. Most >are forced to earn money (Ah -- the bugbear of nobility ... NOT!! snort!!) >some other way. > >Those of us fortunate enough to wander or make our way into the Academie/ >teaching are at least able to spend our days amidst that we love so much: >the use of language. That there will be people wanting to abuse that >privilege for their own career/power base is about as inevitable as in any >other profession -- we are all subject to hubris. > >Practically speaking, if we intend to make a living from writing and >publishing poetry, we're mugs -- stupid as a box full of hair, I reckon. If >we can't help but write it; if we need to do it BECAUSE we NEED to do it; >then what better reason is there, no matter what other people think about >what we do. > >"Efficient" communication with other people and the best way to do it is the >province of rhetoric (and advertising) -- not to say it isn't a tool for our >toolchest should we wish to be absolutely "clear" for the "common man" >(whatever either of those terms 'mean'). > >And should we wish to better ourselves as practioners, be the best we can be >without becoming arrogant or complacent, working with other writers through >universities may be our best choice. This is as noble a pursuit as you are >likely to come across. (Leave preaching to ministers and priests.) > >Zan > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jan 22 09:51:24 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:51:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lit Plus Writ In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030120094032.00a1cb90@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <3E2E699C.19247.85EF45@localhost> David Graham wrote: > ... One of the problems with the MFA degree, I think, is that there really isn't > an accepted standard. One can get an MA or MFA in poetry for 30 credit > hours, for example, at some schools; and sometimes more than half of *those* > credits are in things like workshops and what might be called Po-Biz classes > (magazine editing, reviewing, etc.) as opposed to traditional scholarly > seminars....<< Here, again, is the central question, restated: what is an MFA-in- poetry-writing for, after all? What are the standards that make an MFA-in-poetry-writing something valuable? David Graham: > When I'm advising students with writerly ambitions about possible grad > programs, I always want to find out what they hope to accomplish--if they > just want to take a couple years and write, maybe they should just do so, > classroom or no. If they want to prepare to teach, then a different sort > of program is called for. If a community of writers is what they're looking > for, then the right city might be as important as the right program. The > PhD option makes sense for some, though I'm not sure the degree is > universally respected. And some (who are already teachers in the public > school, e.g.) just need the credential, in which case exploring the > low-residency option might be good.<< Just so, and well-put. But doesn't this variorum of options, each called (I'm assuming) something on the order of an MFA-in-poetry- writing, illuminate the basic problem once again? The question remains: what is an MFA-in-poetry-writing _for_? If it's for any of the things David lists, aren't those things different enough that to call programs that offer such different things by the same name a sort of truth-in-advertising problem, at least? More importantly, though, none of the reasons to get an MFA-in-poetry- writing that David listed is "to get better at writing poetry", or "to become a better poet", or the like. It appears that no one really expects an MFA-in-poetry-writing to produce better poetry or better poets. Further, and more interestingly, what _is_ expected seems to be exactly what Alpaugh suggested: that an MFA-in-poetry-writing is pretty much just another credential for the marketplace. Even more significant, though, it looks as if an MFA-in-poetry-writing isn't even worth much on the face of it, since anyone looking to hire someone with an MFA-in-poetry-writing won't know whether that MFA-in- poetry-writing is the result of the holder's seeking-out of a party school in a party city (at one end of the spectrum) or of the holder's seeking-out of a mail-order credential for commercial gain (at the other end) -- at least not without a lot more information about what each school's MFA-in-poetry-writing looks like. But, astonishingly, what anyone hiring the holder of an MFA-in-poetry- writing _does_ know, apparently, is that the MFA-in-poetry-writing was certainly not intended either by the conferring school nor the holder of the degree to produce better poems or a better poet. Though David Graham disparages Alpaugh's views, it looks as if, from the advice David says he himself gives to students, that David's own practice lends support to Alpaugh's opinion. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From joseph.lucia at villanova.edu Wed Jan 22 09:54:57 2003 From: joseph.lucia at villanova.edu (Joseph Lucia) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 09:54:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prof of Po I References: <200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20030122092311.00ab3ba0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3E2EB0C1.6F17746F@villanova.edu> Henry -- Just jumping in to say that there's an awesome "nobility" and rather frightening idealism in your conception of poetry (which seems utterly de-historicized -- and I take it that poetry for you does in some way stand _outside_ of history, outside of common social experience, in fact), but also a kind of absurdity. Maybe even a Kierkegaardian absurdity in that nothing human attains such a level of "purity," if that's what it is. The short of it may be that the very notion of nobility has become for most of use in this time absurd in all domains, poetry's included. But I admire your relentless Neoplatonic intensity and insistence that poetry is elsewhere. I suspect that there's no way around talking past each other in this context. Henry Gould wrote: > This is exactly the kind of safe, cozy conception of poetry that serves to > keep it in its stultifying place(s). On the contrary, I understand poetry > to be the technical vehicle for the highest modes of human expression, and > the embattled drama surrounding the fame of its manifestations is a > consequence of its cultural importance. Milton's ambition, Dante's "alta > fantasia", Blake's fire, Shakespeare's achievement, Dickinson's power, > Whitman's universality, Virgil's soul, the Psalmist's vision - these are > the exemplars of the highest art, on a par with the greatest composers & > artists. Poetry is not your toy, and the Word is no one's academic hobbyhorse. > From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Jan 22 11:15:44 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:15:44 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] fighting for the canon, for the high, the academic In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030122092311.00ab3ba0@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <02bb01c2c20c$b54306a0$62864cca@jross3> <200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030122094657.01a90518@mail.ilstu.edu> At 09:32 AM 1/22/2003 -0500, Henry Gould wrote: > On the contrary, I understand poetry to be the technical vehicle for > the highest modes of human expression, and the embattled drama > surrounding the fame of its manifestations is a consequence of its > cultural importance. Milton's ambition, Dante's "alta fantasia", Blake's > fire, Shakespeare's achievement, Dickinson's power, Whitman's > universality, Virgil's soul, the Psalmist's vision - these are the > exemplars of the highest art, on a par with the greatest composers & > artists. Poetry is not your toy, and the Word is no one's academic hobbyhorse. Henry, Milton, Dante, Dickinson, Whitman, Virgil, teh Psalms... the "highest" art... the "greatest." Henry, good on you for fighting for the mainly white old academic favorites -- and pretendign to do so against the academics. These "exemplars" are weirdly all from Europe and America, strangely almost all male, have enjoyed the canonizing of 140 years of American Egnlish depts, Briitish and Irish, euro and brit-colonial academics for longer. Sneaky of you to sweep the subjugated and the non-European under the rug. Like some Republican of Literature, you pay attention to the white, the European, the authoritative, and do so in Ecclesiastical terms much like Carlyle. You just list names and rehearse a few pronouncements about them, and warn, gavel poised, that you'll "reiterate" the same "again and again" (I remember the latter three quoted words from one of your earlier posts, not sure if they're exactly right). It's kind of weird -- but a sure bet to place your evangelical righteousness, your unstudied ahistorical certitude, and your faith in the chauvinism of the academy. Divorce their work from history, from the fluxions of taste, cultural need, human desires and wants, and bingo: you're rocketed back to pre-Wimsatt Yale where the books hang like slow revolving planets in platonic ether. You yourself are on an old academic hobbyhorse. Read Graff, learn. Wake up to history, Don Quixote. It's not so bad. the fight began; whereof, before I dare adventure to make a particular description, I must, after the example of other authors, petition for a hundred tongues, and mouths, and hands, and pens, which would all be too little to perform so immense a work. Say, goddess, that presidest over history, who it was that first advanced in the field of battle! Paracelsus, at the head of his dragoons, observing Galen in the adverse wing, darted his javelin with a mighty force, which the brave Ancient received upon his shield, the point breaking in the second fold . . . HIC PAUCA . . . . DESUNT They bore the wounded aga on their shields to his chariot . . . DESUNT . . . NONNULLA. . . . From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Jan 22 11:18:05 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 10:18:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Lit Plus Writ Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87044@mail.ripon.edu> Marcus Bales: More importantly, though, none of the reasons to get an MFA-in-poetry- writing that David listed is "to get better at writing poetry", or "to become a better poet", or the like. It appears that no one really expects an MFA-in-poetry-writing to produce better poetry or better poets. Sigh. . . . Marcus, I didn't provide that little list of options as exhaustive. That people applying for MFA programs hope to get getter as poets really ought to go without saying, I would have thought, but there, I've said it. Your willful slipperyness here makes me disinclined to respond in depth to the rest. But I will say this. Yes, there's a real problem here in terms of coming to a firm agreement about what the MFA degree is *for*. I agree, and said so previously. The plethora of options at different schools makes that clear enough, as do the differing motives of students. But agreeing to that proposition hardly justifies the sort of leap that Alpaugh and you then make, casting doubt on the value of all MFA programs (as if they were all the same) and (without any evidence to speak of) disparaging the academic study of creative writing generally. I think I'm finished with this topic until another day--strangely enough, I have teaching to do, and none of it this semester (for this shamelessly compromised MFA-wielding pawn of Po-Biz) involves teaching poetry writing to future MFAs. I'm teaching Faulkner tomorrow, and *Black Elk Speaks* this afternoon. . . . ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jan 22 11:31:07 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:31:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] BigSmallPressMall announces a launch party/reading and a new discount package Message-ID: <196.146e1f7f.2b60214b@aol.com> BigSmallPressMall announces a launch party/reading and a new discount package . . . Please join us: Thursday, January 30, 7pm Housing Works Used Books Caf? 126 Crosby Street (between Houston & Prince Streets) New York City http://www.bigsmallpressmall.com Readings by one writer from each BigSmallPressMall publisher: Poetry by Peter Richards from Verse Press Fiction by Ben Greenman from McSweeney's Poetry by Tina Brown Celona from Fence Fiction by Sam Lipsyte from Open City The reading will begin at 7pm, followed by a party. Free beer provided by Brooklyn Brewery and free cider provided by Original Sin. Admission: please bring a book to donate to Housing Works, a not-for-profit organization that provides housing, health care, advocacy, and support to homeless men, women, and children living with AIDS and HIV. *********************************************************** AND, we have a new, deeply discounted BigSmall Package, available now. Get four books for only $32, 30% off the retail price. Scroll down to read excerpts from each book. Click here to buy: http://www.bigsmallpressmall.com/package.html Fence: Can You Relax in My House, Poems by Michael Earl Craig Open City: Open City #16, Winter 2003 Verse Press: Winter Sex, Poems by Katy Lederer McSweeney's: English as She Is Spoke, Edited by Paul Collins "Here Comes the Dirty Little Wax Baby" from Can You Relax in My House It was no larger than the nodiform basal segment of the abdomen of an ant, and yet it was as strong as any chain and made you laugh. A peacekeeper, a kind of "peacekeeper" they said, and then you were asked to put it down. It looked at first glance like a suede shoe in the straw but was actually a very, very small horse sleeping and its cage had dents in it that came from the inside. It was a series of glass vases they called The Sea, each filled to a different level with a pale blue water. It was a typewriter. A plain old black metal typewriter. When you walked past it it blinked and then a billfold fell out of your pocket and flipped open on the ground and in it were pictures of every member of your family. And they were each of them nailed to a large wooden cross, which you felt was a bit over the top. It was a dirty looking 3-inch-tall wax baby lying next to a 2-pound crosspein hammer on a step of a short staircase that looked like it had not been dusted off or stepped upon in 30 years. This was perhaps the most interesting to you- a kind of peck on the cheek- the museum was closing- from "The Crossing Guard" by Robert Bingham from Open City #16 Perhaps there is no better opportunity for a glimpse into the smudged window of a man's heart than when he sits alone in a pizza parlor. Visited by stress, Weatherly made a habit of seeking sanctuary in a slice. It was his version of tea. There were three pizza parlors within walking distance of his home and he made a habit of rotating between them. He was neither a regular nor a stranger at any. At the particular one in which he found himself, they called him "Boss." Weatherly ordered and paid for his slice and then sat down at a lonely Formica table. He blew on his slice. He watched the men behind the counter do their thing. The digits of the cash register covered by a greasy sheet of plastic moved in a slow continuum tallying the sums that fed the strays of the city who sank solo into their slice of solace. This tableaux repeated in every neighborhood in every borough, was it a symptom, thought Weatherly, or a cure for a profound and collective loneliness? "Not Only Because We Were Wrong" from Winter Sex Not only because we were wrong, But also because we were deeply unimpressed, Lovers were left at dusk to contemplate being alone. Responding to being alone an intruder. Grown to be one and not one. As if mother had told me so. Mother, O tell us again that we are one. An image of a vision of. Lately one of the ideas I have had has been scripted out for me And one has been wholly original and thus Contributes to this loneliness. One tree is lesser known object than two trees. Two trees are more known for progeny Glisten, gee. It is gorgeous to speak of trees. There is no annoyance in the world. All of us sympathize around a tree. from English as She is Spoke In 1855, when Jose da Fonseca and Pedro Carolino wrote an English phrasebook for Portuguese students, they faced just one problem: they didn't know any English. Even worse, they didn't own an English-to-Portuguese dictionary. What they did have, though, was a Portuguese-to-French dictionary, and a French-to-English dictionary. The linguistic train wreck that ensued is a classic of unintentional humor, now revived in the first newly selected edition in a century. Armed with Fonseca and Carolino's guide, a Portuguese traveler can insult a barber ("What news tell me? All hairs dresser are newsmonger"), complain about the orchestra ("It is a noise which to cleve the head"), go hunting ("let aim it! let make fire him"), and consult a handy selection of truly mystifying "Idiotisms and Proverbs." From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Jan 22 11:37:38 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:37:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] fighting for the canon, for the high, the academic In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030122094657.01a90518@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030122092311.00ab3ba0@postoffice.brown.edu> <02bb01c2c20c$b54306a0$62864cca@jross3> <200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030122112711.00a9c620@postoffice.brown.edu> Hey, I'm glad some scholars edited & kept those works alive, from the books of the Bible down to Walt & onward. Are you holding me responsible for the lacunae of the canonizers & the bigotries of society? Show me some unknown poetry & I'll know if it's high or great or not in my estimation. This is another typical canard, Gabriel - that there is no such thing as greatness because the dead white men were elitist. I don't buy the logic there. Henry From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 22 11:51:00 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:51:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Emily Dickinson In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87044@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <20030122165100.62956.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Howdy all, I know that we've all been arguing about MFAs and so forth, but I have a practical question about teaching that I hope some of you can address. Right now, in my American Lit survey, we're reading Emily Dickinson. I teach at a small agricultural college, so you can imagine how into Dickinson (and poetry in general) my students are. Yesterday, I gave them the Dickinson bio and some info about her in general: style, typographical quirks, typical subject matter, etc. However, when I moved into talking about the poems themselves, I felt completely at a loss. We have just come from talking about Whitman, and moving directly into Dickinson seems to have mystified (yes I'll admit it) both me and my students. Any tips on teaching Dickinson? On reading her poetry? Any teachers on list care to tell how you approach Dickinson's work? Thanks (and I hope this post isn't inappropriate), Jeff Newberry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jan 22 12:05:22 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:05:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Emily Dickinson Message-ID: <17c.159c4e3a.2b602952@cs.com> In a message dated 1/22/2003 10:52:06 AM Central Standard Time, jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: > However, when I moved into talking about the poems themselves, I felt > completely at a loss. We have just come from talking about Whitman, and > moving directly into Dickinson seems to have mystified (yes I'll admit it) > both me and my students. > > Any tips on teaching Dickinson? On reading her poetry? Any teachers on > list care to tell how you approach Dickinson's work? > > Dickinson always is a dud for me too, and I teach a similar course to similar students. After all of Walt's big ideas and bluster, she comes across as anti-climactic. I have much more luck teaching her to poets and advanced students. So much of her greatness resides in her vocabulary, and that's something that's lost on lower-division students. One of my favorites with poetry students is to give them a Dickinson poem with blanks where certain words should be, then give them the defintion for each word and see what they come up with when they fill in the blanks. This is the sort of thing De Snodgrass does in his DeConstructions, an interesting book. Dickinson amazes me as a poet who can mix plain diction with the unexpected unfamiliar word, but I think writers are the only ones who can really appreciate this. Lower-division students can't see much difference between the following version and the original, alas. There is no warship like a book To take us far away Nor any fast horse like a page Of lively poetry. This journey may the poorest take Without excessive toll. How inexpensive is the car That bears the human soul. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Jan 22 12:07:10 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:07:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Teaching Emily Dickinson Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87047@mail.ripon.edu> Jeff, you ask a pretty general question. And I have to say that I very seldom find that Dickinson gets voted Favorite Author at the end of any given term in my classes. I'd also be interested in hearing teaching ideas. Certainly I would start with the most accessible of Dickinson, and work from there--poems such as "A narrow fellow in the grass" or "I heard a fly buzz" or "Because I could not stop" or "I'm Nobody!" or "Drowning is not so pitiful." I often begin pretty slowly, doing a whole hour on "A narrow fellow," for instance, and letting discussion roam quite widely over thematic terrain, going easy on the technical/historical/biographical analysis at first. Why do people hate snakes? Why might she have cast this poem in a boyish persona? What's it mean to compare a snake to a "whiplash"? Why doesn't she use the word "snake" in the poem? Etc. The PBS video in the Voices & Visions series on ED is quite good, and I've shown it as warm-up to a unit on her work. Also, the MLA has an excellent series on approaches to teaching various authors, including a good one on Dickinson. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: Jeff Newberry > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:51 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Emily Dickinson > > Howdy all, > > I know that we've all been arguing about MFAs and so forth, but I have a > practical question about teaching that I hope some of you can address. > > Right now, in my American Lit survey, we're reading Emily Dickinson. I > teach at a small agricultural college, so you can imagine how into > Dickinson (and poetry in general) my students are. Yesterday, I gave them > the Dickinson bio and some info about her in general: style, > typographical quirks, typical subject matter, etc. > > However, when I moved into talking about the poems themselves, I felt > completely at a loss. We have just come from talking about Whitman, and > moving directly into Dickinson seems to have mystified (yes I'll admit it) > both me and my students. > > Any tips on teaching Dickinson? On reading her poetry? Any teachers on > list care to tell how you approach Dickinson's work? > > Thanks (and I hope this post isn't inappropriate), > > Jeff Newberry > > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jan 22 12:19:00 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:19:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Teaching Emily Dickinson Message-ID: <1d2.85697d.2b602c84@cs.com> In a message dated 1/22/2003 11:08:26 AM Central Standard Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > The PBS video in the Voices &Visions series on ED is quite good, and I've > shown it as warm-up to a unit on her work. > I've shown this once or twice, and compared to the ones on Whitman and Frost, which I regularly use, it's pretty low-key. Some of the stuff about the incorporation of hymnal stanzas is useful, but not much else. Is there a video version of Belle of Amherst? That might work. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CAConrad9 at aol.com Wed Jan 22 12:34:43 2003 From: CAConrad9 at aol.com (CAConrad9 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:34:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] complexities of prof of po IRONIC? (was the flood a water-marked page?) Message-ID: <35913449.2256B636.01F36A84@aol.com> well Henry, i come from a family of thieves and whores, but what does that have to do with poetry? anymore than your lawyers and judges? frankly Henry, if your need for bigger arguments is more on the side of the law, well, poetry has no use for it. i went to the march in DC this past Saturday with a bunch of poets, and ran into dozens more poets. the activity is a constant stride into some bigger world view. and you know what? poetry is TOO BIG right now for one mere ideology. for one small-hearted manifesto. who needs another bully like Breton? please! this world of poetry is FAR TOO BIG for such bullshit anymore! but besides all that, it is such a GRAY issue, the issue of what an MFA can or cannot do for a poet or poetry in general. this country is ROILING with poetic activity, more poets than ever before, due mostly to the brave working classes who broke down more than wage barriers. we have an enormous number of students in all forms of arts right now, and it WILL change this country and it WILL change this world. this is one of the most exciting times to be alive! there's SO MUCH poetry out there! it would PISS ME OFF TREMENDOUSLY if someone sent me back in time right now! anyway Henry, what are you reading? what are you writing? this is for CERTAIN the real needs and issues for poets. a daily life of it. that is what we need. and we can have it. it's all around us. more later, CAConrad In a message dated 1/21/2003 8:57:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes: > > > CAConrad writes: > > Ironic? maybe it is to some. but does it matter? > > well, if it matters to YOU, than i guess it does. > > > > but are YOU happy Henry? > > are you enjoying poetry? > > are you writing poetry? > > are you reading it? > > > > that's what matters the most. and i liked how you closed the post explaining the goal MFA programs "should" be. that was nice, and helpful. > > Henry responds: > As long as it means something to you, CA - that's what really matters. Whether it means something in general - who can say? As long as it's helpful to YOU - that's nice. I'm glad for you. > > As for me, coming from a family of lawyers & judges, I'm happiest when I'm defending a difficult case (what Gabriel > calls "polemics"). > > Henry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Wed Jan 22 12:37:34 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (Michael Magee) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:37:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Emily Dickinson In-Reply-To: <17c.159c4e3a.2b602952@cs.com> from "Rsgwynn1@cs.com" at Jan 22, 2003 12:05:22 pm Message-ID: <200301221737.h0MHbY2d029355@dept.english.upenn.edu> Hi all, I've had a very different experience teaching Dickinson than the ones stated so far, for whatever reason. I think she's teachable as hell and my students tend to love her. My suggestion would be to teach some of the poems where there is clearly a lot at stake socially and, let's say, intellectually. A very great one that I don't hear all that much about is #199, "I'm 'wife' -- I've finshed that --". Allowing of course that veryone has their opinion's on such things, this poem seems to me one of the great poems in English. More importantly, students end up digging it and getting alot out of what it has to say about the relationship between language/names/titles and identity (and if you're so inclined you can to cultural studies stuf abour marriage and property etc.) You can teach it with 613, "They shut me up in prose" to great affect. And then, for a smash finally 1072, "Title divine -- is mine! / The Wife -- without the Sign!" I sometimes teach these alongside her letters to Susie Gilbert. Other teachables among my smash hits: 632, 1545, 303, 341. -m. According to Rsgwynn1 at cs.com: > > > --part1_17c.159c4e3a.2b602952_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 1/22/2003 10:52:06 AM Central Standard Time, > jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: > > However, when I moved into talking about the poems themselves, I felt > > completely at a loss. We have just come from talking about Whitman, and > > moving directly into Dickinson seems to have mystified (yes I'll admit it) > > both me and my students. > > > > Any tips on teaching Dickinson? On reading her poetry? Any teachers on > > list care to tell how you approach Dickinson's work? > > > > > Dickinson always is a dud for me too, and I teach a similar course to similar > students. After all of Walt's big ideas and bluster, she comes across as > anti-climactic. I have much more luck teaching her to poets and advanced > students. So much of her greatness resides in her vocabulary, and that's > something that's lost on lower-division students. One of my favorites with > poetry students is to give them a Dickinson poem with blanks where certain > words should be, then give them the defintion for each word and see what they > come up with when they fill in the blanks. This is the sort of thing De > Snodgrass does in his DeConstructions, an interesting book. Dickinson amazes > me as a poet who can mix plain diction with the unexpected unfamiliar word, > but I think writers are the only ones who can really appreciate this. > Lower-division students can't see much difference between the following > version and the original, alas. > > > There is no warship like a book > To take us far away > Nor any fast horse like a page > Of lively poetry. > > This journey may the poorest take > Without excessive toll. > How inexpensive is the car > That bears the human soul. > > --part1_17c.159c4e3a.2b602952_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 1/22/2003 10:52:06 AM Central Standard Time, jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes:
>
However, when I moved into talking about the poems themselves, I felt completely at a loss.  We have just come from talking about Whitman, and moving directly into Dickinson seems to have mystified (yes I'll admit it) both me and my students.
>
> Any tips on teaching Dickinson?  On reading her poetry?  Any teachers on list care to tell how you approach Dickinson's work? 
>
>

> Dickinson always is a dud for me too, and I teach a similar course to similar students.  After all of Walt's big ideas and bluster, she comes across as anti-climactic.  I have much more luck teaching her to poets and advanced students.  So much of her greatness resides in her vocabulary, and that's something that's lost on lower-division students.  One of my favorites with poetry students is to give them a Dickinson poem with blanks where certain words should be, then give them the defintion for each word and see what they come up with when they fill in the blanks.  This is the sort of thing De Snodgrass does in his DeConstructions, an interesting book.  Dickinson amazes me as a poet who can mix plain diction with the unexpected unfamiliar word, but I think writers are the only ones who can really appreciate this.  Lower-d! ivi > sion students can't see much difference between the following version and the original, alas.
>
>      
> There is no warship like a book
> To take us far away
> Nor any fast horse like a page
> Of lively poetry.
>
> This journey may the poorest take
> Without excessive toll.
> How inexpensive is the car
> That bears the human soul. > > --part1_17c.159c4e3a.2b602952_boundary-- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From CAConrad9 at aol.com Wed Jan 22 12:59:26 2003 From: CAConrad9 at aol.com (CAConrad9 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:59:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] fighting for the canon, for the high, the academic Message-ID: <68BEA101.1684DD57.01F36A84@aol.com> > At 09:32 AM 1/22/2003 -0500, Henry Gould wrote: Milton's ambition, Dante's "alta fantasia", Blake's > > fire, Shakespeare's achievement, Dickinson's power, Whitman's > > universality, Virgil's soul, the Psalmist's vision - these are the > > exemplars of the highest art, on a par with the greatest composers & > > artists. Poetry is not your toy, and the Word is no one's academic hobbyhorse. OH NO! Poetry is NOT my toy!? i wish you had told me sooner! well, i'm NOT giving up my toy Henry, like it or not! but you act as though we haven't had a REVOLUTION in this country for poetry in the past half century. and how it continues as background music for you is interesting. poets who have FUN can relay the SAME daunting messages of life as the serious. have you read Patchen? Edson? and a dozen other modern prophets? Alice Notley i might add can brush shoulders with any of the names you try to dazzle us with. Maureen Owen, Harryette Mullen, they aren't just riding the American landscape, they're RECREATING the vehicles for the ride. this really is further proof that poetry is simply too big for small visions. and more proof that poetry isn't and hasn't been for some time the fancy of the rich. many of the names you uphold Henry are the forerunners in the POEMS FOR THE MILLENNIUM anthologies 1 & 2, edited by Joris and Rothenberg. in fact, through Blake and Whitman you can see how the tree did in fact BURST a wild champion of new branches. it's a whole different path than it was 100 years ago, not that we don't owe our gratitude to all those who came before us. and you can see how the various schools had their hand in shaping the vast regions we pluck through today, Black Mountain, Iowa, New York, etc. i will continue to be excited, and i will continue to toy with my toy. more later, CAConrad from the sounds of Philadelphia From wwmorgan at mail.ilstu.edu Wed Jan 22 14:40:03 2003 From: wwmorgan at mail.ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:40:03 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Aesthetics of the Book of Poetry Message-ID: <4.1.20030122133856.00922ee0@mail.ilstu.edu> Can anyone on the list suggest some critical works on the Book of Poetry? I'm trying to describe and analyze the ways in which Hardy organized his various volumes of verse. Like many poets, he wrote poems but published *books* of poems, and it's that act of selecting and organizing miscellaneous poems into books that I'm trying to think about. I'm wondering if there's a body of (non-Hardy-specific) scholarship out there that I ought to be looking at. Thanks in advance. cheers, Bill Morgan From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Jan 22 15:17:40 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:17:40 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] ten In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030122112711.00a9c620@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030122094657.01a90518@mail.ilstu.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20030122092311.00ab3ba0@postoffice.brown.edu> <02bb01c2c20c$b54306a0$62864cca@jross3> <200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030122140815.01b53800@mail.ilstu.edu> <> Hi Henry, of course I'm not holding you responsible for anything of the sort, but I am telling you that I think you're a chauvinist when it comes to literature. I do think it's interesting you never seem to mention anyone who's not canonical. But I tell you what you could do -- if you want to convince me you're not the chauvinist, though I know that you probably aren't interested in doing this, is, seeing as how you are so adept at knowing the real mccoy, known and unknown, to maybe name ten poets who are not white, not male, not European or American, and not canonized and whom you esteem as "greatest" and "highest." And give us a little taste of their work in English. Whaddya think? You up for it? At 11:37 AM 1/22/2003 -0500, Henry Gould wrote: >Hey, I'm glad some scholars edited & kept those works alive, from the >books of the Bible down to Walt & onward. > >This is another typical canard, Gabriel - that there is no such thing as >greatness because the dead white men were elitist. I don't buy the logic >there. > >Henry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jan 22 15:34:19 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:34:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Lit Plus Writ In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87044@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <3E2EB9FB.9985.1BFEF24@localhost> David Graham: > . . . I didn't provide that little list of options as > exhaustive. That people applying for MFA programs hope to get getter as > poets really ought to go without saying, I would have thought, but there, > I've said it.... << Well, is that what an MFA-in-writing-poetry is _for_, then? If so, what is "better poet" and what is "better poem"? What you, and others, are saying when you point out that various MFA programs offer very different thingsis that in the absence of any widely-agreed-on standards for what "good" means in "good poetry", in the absence of any Gudding-like passion for excellence, academics are going to get their degrees and take their wages. Of course, that's exactly what Alpaugh's critique is: that academics get their degrees and take their wages, and that there is no Gudding-like passion for excellence, and, in fact, no notion of what excellence would look like. The irony is that in spite of the fact, the hard, brute fact, that academics _admit_ that that's what they _do_, most of them insist on disagreeing with people who point out just what academics have admitted that they do. David Graham: > But I will say this. Yes, there's a real problem here in terms of coming to > a firm agreement about what the MFA degree is *for*. I agree, and said so > previously. The plethora of options at different schools makes that clear > enough, as do the differing motives of students. > But agreeing to that proposition hardly justifies the sort of leap that > Alpaugh and you then make, casting doubt on the value of all MFA programs > (as if they were all the same) and (without any evidence to speak of) > disparaging the academic study of creative writing generally.<< The heat behind the disagreement with the notion that MFA programs offer only the values of either a community of like-minded people, or a chance to earn more money with MFA after one's name, or both, is generated because neither the people who run the MFA programs nor those who want to get or have MFAs can reasonably articulate what's "good" about "good poetry", and thus cannot reasonably say that MFA programs produce better poets or better poems. It seems that that would require abandoning the entire notion that an MFA program produces values other than a chance to hang out with other people who purport to be poets, or a chance to earn more money for having some letters after one's name, but no -- instead in a blandly Bush-like way academics continue to say one thing and do another: continue to say that the MFA has a value beyond community or credential while acting as if community or credential were the only values. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Jan 22 15:49:50 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:49:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten Message-ID: Colonization in Reverse -Louise Bennett (Jamaica) Wat a joyful news, miss Mattie, I feel like me heart gwine burs Jamaica people colonizin Englan in Reverse By de hundred, by de tousan >From country and from town, By de ship-load, by de plane load Jamica is Englan boun. Dem a pour out a Jamaica, Everybody future plan Is fe get a big-time job An settle in de mother lan. What an islan! What a people! Man an woman, old an young Jus a pack dem bag an baggage An turn history upside dung! Some people doan like travel, But fe show dem loyalty Dem all a open up cheap-fare- To-England agency. An week by week dem shippin off Dem countryman like fire, Fe immigrate an populate De seat a de Empire. Oonoo see how life is funny, Oonoo see da turnabout? jamaica live fe box bread Out a English people mout'. For wen dem ketch a Englan, An start play dem different role, Some will settle down to work An some will settle fe de dole. Jane says de dole is not too bad Because dey payin she Two pounds a week fe seek a job dat suit her dignity. me say Jane will never fine work At de rate how she dah look, For all day she stay pon Aunt Fan couch An read love-story book. Wat a devilment a Englan! Dem face war an brave de worse, But me wonderin how dem gwine stan Colonizin in reverse. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From sondheim at panix.com Wed Jan 22 15:56:33 2003 From: sondheim at panix.com (Alan Sondheim) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:56:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1206 - 8 msgs In-Reply-To: <20030122081802.43B23100EA@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <20030122081802.43B23100EA@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: I also went to Brown and Honig was also my advisor and he thought I was a total freak but I stored my 12' organ with two manuals and foot pedals at his mansion, yes it was, and we got along. But he took me up only after S. Foster Damon abandoned me because I didn't do enough else with the 700 source bibliography on the delta blues to merit his attention and I was tired as well of it all; Honig got me through I think grudgingly. I coulda been a contender. It was Clark Coolidge who dropped out and for that matter encouraged me, introduced me to Acconci, etc.; as well as I. A. Richards earlier who kept me going. But no thanks to Brown per se. I think I was hated there; ran into far too much classism and anti-semitism. Ended up hanging around Rhode Island School of Design and University of Rhode Island where everyone was more open, and sometimes on edge and furious - Alan http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/ http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt older http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Jan 22 16:11:29 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:11:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Lit Plus Writ In-Reply-To: <3E2EB9FB.9985.1BFEF24@localhost> References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87044@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030122143550.01b21458@mail.ilstu.edu> At 03:34 PM 1/22/2003 -0500, Marcus Bales wrote: >and that there is no Gudding-like passion for >excellence, and, in fact, no notion of what excellence would look >like. Just to butt in here, Marcus, but I don't know how comfy I am being implicated in something called "gudding-like passion for excellence." Did I ever express any passion for excellence? If I did, I retract it. I don't go in for excellence and the "standards" the term excellence implies, but for usefulness -- a usefulness which is local, unquantifiable, pragmatic, and temporary. My recent posts to the list were meant to be kind of dispassionate and even-toned, yet I don't think I've done too well -- and if something in my tone suggested I'd be someone up for passion for excellence, I apologize. :) From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Jan 22 16:13:24 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:13:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ten In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030122140815.01b53800@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030122112711.00a9c620@postoffice.brown.edu> <5.1.1.6.0.20030122094657.01a90518@mail.ilstu.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20030122092311.00ab3ba0@postoffice.brown.edu> <02bb01c2c20c$b54306a0$62864cca@jross3> <200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030122154708.00a98cf0@postoffice.brown.edu> We were talking about greatness, whether manifested in music, poetry, painting. I was arguing that the measure of poetry is set by the masters, in the works themselves, not by the anthologizers & how-to programs. Something irks you, Gabriel, about this concept; somehow for you it's inherently elitist. I'm not sure why you're bothered by the idea of an unmediated relation between great art & its audience. It pleases you that the idols have been knocked from their pedestals; it bothers you that a contemporary might still respond to the masterpieces of the past. So you decide to mount an ad hominem, playing various tunes - from high academic disdain to wheedling insinuation. I'm not going to play along. Make up your own lists - I'm sure you'll be better at it than me. Greatness is not an objective thing, anyway. Art is a dream & greatness is in the eye of the beholder. But it's there, in the art. Henry From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jan 22 16:19:26 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:19:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Lit Plus Writ In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030122143550.01b21458@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <3E2EB9FB.9985.1BFEF24@localhost> Message-ID: <3E2EC48E.13215.1E94125@localhost> Gabriel Gudding wrote: > ... Did I > ever express any passion for excellence? If I did, I retract it. I don't go > in for excellence and the "standards" the term excellence implies, but for > usefulness -- a usefulness which is local, unquantifiable, pragmatic, and > temporary.<< My mistake. I think I may have meant "Gould-like" but I'm late for an appointment and don't have time to go back and re-read and check. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Jan 22 16:58:47 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 16:58:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prof of Po I In-Reply-To: <3E2EB0C1.6F17746F@villanova.edu> References: <200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20030122092311.00ab3ba0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030122165029.00aba100@postoffice.brown.edu> Joe, I am sorry to take up the airwaves so much with these arguments. Am quitting now, if people will leave me alone on this. Just want to clarify one thing, if I can. I've been insisting, as you say. But I think somewhere I wrote that poetry is a vehicle for the highest feelings or visions or concordances. & that's what people are looking for in the midst of the beautiful excellence of good poetry. But I don't mean to suggest that poetry is ONLY that high arcane fiery serious sphere. What I've been trying to do is point toward what I see as the center of intensity, which is not in the training grounds or the pecking orders but in the immediate aesthetic relation between the obscure/famous poet & the obscure/famous/ordinary reader. Henry At 09:54 AM 1/22/03 -0500, you wrote: > But I admire your relentless Neoplatonic intensity >and insistence that poetry is elsewhere. I suspect that there's no way around >talking past each other in this context. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Jan 22 17:22:18 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:22:18 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Peter Meinke Message-ID: <3E2F1999.B7EF075@earthlink.net> Ode to Good Men Fallen Before Hero Come In all story before hero come good men from all over set forth to meet giant ogre dragon troll and they are all killed every one decapitated roasted cut in two their maiden are carted away and gobbled like cupcake until hero sail across white water and run giant ogre dragon troll quite through Land of course explode into rejoicing and king's daughter kisses horny knight but who's to kiss horny head of slaughtered whose bony smile are for no one in particular somewhere left out of story somebody's daughter remain behind general celebration combing her hair without looking into mirror rethinking life without Harry who liked his beer I sing for them son friend brother all women-born men like one we know ourselves no hero they no Tristan no St. George Gawain Galahad Sgt. York they march again and again to be quartered and diced and what hell for them never attempt to riddle I'm talking about Harry Smith caught in middle who fought pretty bravely for nothing and screamed twice. -Peter Meinke, _Liquid Paper_, Pittsburgh Press, 1996 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jan 22 20:34:39 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:34:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ten References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030122094657.01a90518@mail.ilstu.edu><4.3.2.7.2.20030122092311.00ab3ba0@postoffice.brown.edu><02bb01c2c20c$b54306a0$62864cca@jross3><200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> <5.1.1.6.0.20030122140815.01b53800@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <008701c2c27f$995031c0$71eafea9@j1c1k6> > But I tell you what you could do -- if you want to > convince me you're not the chauvinist, though I know that you probably > aren't interested in doing this, is, seeing as how you are so adept at > knowing the real mccoy, known and unknown, to maybe name ten poets who are > not white, not male, not European or American, and not canonized and whom > you esteem as "greatest" and "highest." And give us a little taste of their > work in English. Whaddya think? You up for it? I don't know about Henry, but I sure as hell can't. If that makes me a chauvinist, so be it. --Bob G. From mandolin at mac.com Wed Jan 22 21:04:32 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:04:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ten In-Reply-To: <008701c2c27f$995031c0$71eafea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <03B9F007-2E77-11D7-B255-000393C29586@mac.com> On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 08:34 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> But I tell you what you could do -- if you want to >> convince me you're not the chauvinist, though I know that you probably >> aren't interested in doing this, is, seeing as how you are so adept at >> knowing the real mccoy, known and unknown, to maybe name ten poets >> who are >> not white, not male, not European or American, and not canonized and >> whom >> you esteem as "greatest" and "highest." And give us a little taste of > their >> work in English. Whaddya think? You up for it? > > I don't know about Henry, but I sure as hell can't. If that makes me a > chauvinist, so be it. > > --Bob G. > Guess I'm just a pig, too. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Jan 22 21:41:43 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 20:41:43 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Emily Dickinson -- All We Read is FREAKS In-Reply-To: <20030122165100.62956.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87044@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030122202101.01a02498@mail.ilstu.edu> Jeff, There is a fantastic article in the latest issue of _Oxford American_ (Jan/Feb 2003) called "All We Read is FREAKS" by William Bowers that treats Dickinson -- and how to teach Dickinson in a community college -- from a perspective that is down-to-earth, smart, gripping and never far from hilarious. I'm sure Henry'd say it cheapens Dickinson I'm sure. Too, you might try teaching her -- at least somewhat -- via the simultaneous parody and homage X.J. Kennedy did in _Emily Dickinson in Southern California_. Anyway, Bower even includes assignments -- *and* student responses to assignments. It is absolutely a brilliant article, at the level of pedagogy, and hilarious in-class reportage. He takes the reader step by stone through how he taught her. A colleague named Jan Susina put it in my mailbox today, a complete fluke, he thought I'd like it, and I did/do, it's brilliant. If you don't have near you or can't easily get _Oxford American_, backchannel your address and I'll send it to you. Gabe At 08:51 AM 1/22/2003 -0800, Jeff Newberry wrote: >Howdy all, > >I know that we've all been arguing about MFAs and so forth, but I have a >practical question about teaching that I hope some of you can address. > >Right now, in my American Lit survey, we're reading Emily Dickinson. I >teach at a small agricultural college, so you can imagine how into >Dickinson (and poetry in general) my students are. Yesterday, I gave them >the Dickinson bio and some info about her in general: style, >typographical quirks, typical subject matter, etc. > >However, when I moved into talking about the poems themselves, I felt >completely at a loss. We have just come from talking about Whitman, and >moving directly into Dickinson seems to have mystified (yes I'll admit it) >both me and my students. > >Any tips on teaching Dickinson? On reading her poetry? Any teachers on >list care to tell how you approach Dickinson's work? > >Thanks (and I hope this post isn't inappropriate), > >Jeff Newberry > > > >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail >Plus - Powerful. Affordable. >Sign up now Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbyrne at risd.edu Wed Jan 22 21:51:37 2003 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:51:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Emily Dickinson -- All We Read is FREAKS Message-ID: Here's my address Gabe, I'd like a copy of this. Thanks, Mairead P.S. I love your book. Mairead Byrne, Ph.D. Department of English Rhode Island School of Design 2 College Street Providence, RI 02903 Office: (401)454.6268 Home: (401)273.5964 mbyrne at risd.edu >>> gmguddi at ilstu.edu 01/22/03 21:47 PM >>> Jeff, There is a fantastic article in the latest issue of _Oxford American_ (Jan/Feb 2003) called "All We Read is FREAKS" by William Bowers that treats Dickinson -- and how to teach Dickinson in a community college -- from a perspective that is down-to-earth, smart, gripping and never far from hilarious. I'm sure Henry'd say it cheapens Dickinson I'm sure. Too, you might try teaching her -- at least somewhat -- via the simultaneous parody and homage X.J. Kennedy did in _Emily Dickinson in Southern California_. Anyway, Bower even includes assignments -- *and* student responses to assignments. It is absolutely a brilliant article, at the level of pedagogy, and hilarious in-class reportage. He takes the reader step by stone through how he taught her. A colleague named Jan Susina put it in my mailbox today, a complete fluke, he thought I'd like it, and I did/do, it's brilliant. If you don't have near you or can't easily get _Oxford American_, backchannel your address and I'll send it to you. Gabe At 08:51 AM 1/22/2003 -0800, Jeff Newberry wrote: >Howdy all, > >I know that we've all been arguing about MFAs and so forth, but I have a >practical question about teaching that I hope some of you can address. > >Right now, in my American Lit survey, we're reading Emily Dickinson. I >teach at a small agricultural college, so you can imagine how into >Dickinson (and poetry in general) my students are. Yesterday, I gave them >the Dickinson bio and some info about her in general: style, >typographical quirks, typical subject matter, etc. > >However, when I moved into talking about the poems themselves, I felt >completely at a loss. We have just come from talking about Whitman, and >moving directly into Dickinson seems to have mystified (yes I'll admit it) >both me and my students. > >Any tips on teaching Dickinson? On reading her poetry? Any teachers on >list care to tell how you approach Dickinson's work? > >Thanks (and I hope this post isn't inappropriate), > >Jeff Newberry > > > >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail >Plus - Powerful. Affordable. >Sign up now Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From mbyrne at risd.edu Wed Jan 22 21:55:33 2003 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 21:55:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Emily Dickinson -- All We Read isFREAKS Message-ID: My message to Gabe should have been backchannel. Sorry. Mairead Mairead Byrne, Ph.D. Department of English Rhode Island School of Design 2 College Street Providence, RI 02903 Office: (401)454.6268 Home: (401)273.5964 mbyrne at risd.edu >>> gmguddi at ilstu.edu 01/22/03 21:47 PM >>> Jeff, There is a fantastic article in the latest issue of _Oxford American_ (Jan/Feb 2003) called "All We Read is FREAKS" by William Bowers that treats Dickinson -- and how to teach Dickinson in a community college -- from a perspective that is down-to-earth, smart, gripping and never far from hilarious. I'm sure Henry'd say it cheapens Dickinson I'm sure. Too, you might try teaching her -- at least somewhat -- via the simultaneous parody and homage X.J. Kennedy did in _Emily Dickinson in Southern California_. Anyway, Bower even includes assignments -- *and* student responses to assignments. It is absolutely a brilliant article, at the level of pedagogy, and hilarious in-class reportage. He takes the reader step by stone through how he taught her. A colleague named Jan Susina put it in my mailbox today, a complete fluke, he thought I'd like it, and I did/do, it's brilliant. If you don't have near you or can't easily get _Oxford American_, backchannel your address and I'll send it to you. Gabe At 08:51 AM 1/22/2003 -0800, Jeff Newberry wrote: >Howdy all, > >I know that we've all been arguing about MFAs and so forth, but I have a >practical question about teaching that I hope some of you can address. > >Right now, in my American Lit survey, we're reading Emily Dickinson. I >teach at a small agricultural college, so you can imagine how into >Dickinson (and poetry in general) my students are. Yesterday, I gave them >the Dickinson bio and some info about her in general: style, >typographical quirks, typical subject matter, etc. > >However, when I moved into talking about the poems themselves, I felt >completely at a loss. We have just come from talking about Whitman, and >moving directly into Dickinson seems to have mystified (yes I'll admit it) >both me and my students. > >Any tips on teaching Dickinson? On reading her poetry? Any teachers on >list care to tell how you approach Dickinson's work? > >Thanks (and I hope this post isn't inappropriate), > >Jeff Newberry > > > >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail >Plus - Powerful. Affordable. >Sign up now Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jan 22 23:31:11 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 23:31:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NYT Article on Anthony Hecht Message-ID: <109.1f0c0771.2b60ca0f@cs.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/21/books/21HECH.html?ex=1044294193&ei=1& en=ca60e307dbcab09b -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Jan 23 01:42:26 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:42:26 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prof of Po I References: <200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20030122092311.00ab3ba0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <002401c2c2aa$98bf2dd0$5d864cca@jross3> Poetry/the WORD certainly ARE my toys, Henry, and should be yours! How little joy it must bring you to think they shouldn't/couldn't be. As to hobbyhorses -- they're toys, too. Only the arrogant believe they aren't. Poetry is far from being a in "stultifying place(s)", however anyone else outside the field may see it. It is one of the most exciting places to be in the world of writing. Are YOU bored by it? I notice that you rarely mention any writer who is contemporary. Why is that? As to "poetry [being] the technical vehicle for the highest modes of human expression, and the embattled drama surrounding the fame of its manifestations [being] a consequence of its cultural importance" -- I'd ask you get off your hobby/high horse which insists on seeing this genre as the noblest of genres. It is certainly one of the most difficult to do well ("well" being a common bone of contention as to definition); there are certainly comparatively few people interested in it (as compared to cookbooks, say); but I smell no sanctity or sacredness around it (and I'm big on sniffing about). Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Gould" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Prof of Po I > This is exactly the kind of safe, cozy conception of poetry that serves to > keep it in its stultifying place(s). On the contrary, I understand poetry > to be the technical vehicle for the highest modes of human expression, and > the embattled drama surrounding the fame of its manifestations is a > consequence of its cultural importance. Milton's ambition, Dante's "alta > fantasia", Blake's fire, Shakespeare's achievement, Dickinson's power, > Whitman's universality, Virgil's soul, the Psalmist's vision - these are > the exemplars of the highest art, on a par with the greatest composers & > artists. Poetry is not your toy, and the Word is no one's academic hobbyhorse. > > Henry > > > At 07:52 PM 1/22/03 +0800, you wrote: > > > >Henry G. wrote: > >I see the "art of poetry" as occurring in a more liminal, embattled and > >dramatic space - the space of literary fame, critical controversy, public > >life, & contemporary events. > > > >Zan writes: > >Poetry has been, for several hundred years in fact, a "niche" > >market/audience. Yes, this makes it liminal in some senses, but not to > >those who live, breathe and eat the stuff. Besides, who determines what the > >so-called centre of the entire literary field is? The publishers? The > >Academie? The largely uneducated 'public' that you seem so anxious to > >engage with? > > > >The fact is the genre is no more sublime than any other, no more embattled > >(causing us to look some how more "noble" than writers in other genres? I > >think not!), certainly much less dramatic than that occurring in relation to > >national and international prizes of fiction. Our public and private lives > >are often quite uninteresting, unless we happen to dwell in a country where > >our physical liberty may be under threat for the writing of governmentally > >judged subversive work. > > > >Get off it, Henry!! We write poetry for any number of reasons, which varies > >quite a lot between practitioners. None of these reasons is 'wrong' or > >ignoble; they just ARE. Most of us couldn't be "professional poets" > >(earning our daily bread from the writing and publication thereof) if we > >wanted to -- the dividends ordinarily aren't enough to support one. Most > >are forced to earn money (Ah -- the bugbear of nobility ... NOT!! snort!!) > >some other way. > > > >Those of us fortunate enough to wander or make our way into the Academie/ > >teaching are at least able to spend our days amidst that we love so much: > >the use of language. That there will be people wanting to abuse that > >privilege for their own career/power base is about as inevitable as in any > >other profession -- we are all subject to hubris. > > > >Practically speaking, if we intend to make a living from writing and > >publishing poetry, we're mugs -- stupid as a box full of hair, I reckon. If > >we can't help but write it; if we need to do it BECAUSE we NEED to do it; > >then what better reason is there, no matter what other people think about > >what we do. > > > >"Efficient" communication with other people and the best way to do it is the > >province of rhetoric (and advertising) -- not to say it isn't a tool for our > >toolchest should we wish to be absolutely "clear" for the "common man" > >(whatever either of those terms 'mean'). > > > >And should we wish to better ourselves as practioners, be the best we can be > >without becoming arrogant or complacent, working with other writers through > >universities may be our best choice. This is as noble a pursuit as you are > >likely to come across. (Leave preaching to ministers and priests.) > > > >Zan > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Jan 23 01:49:29 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:49:29 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lit Plus Writ- Zan to Marcus References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030120094032.00a1cb90@incoming.verizon.net> <3E2E699C.19247.85EF45@localhost> Message-ID: <002c01c2c2ab$94b34d10$5d864cca@jross3> Marcus wrote: > Further, and more interestingly, what _is_ expected seems to be > exactly what Alpaugh suggested: that an MFA-in-poetry-writing is > pretty much just another credential for the marketplace. Zan writes: That's not what David said, if you read more carefully through his post. Marcus wrote: Even more > significant, though, it looks as if an MFA-in-poetry-writing isn't > even worth much on the face of it, since anyone looking to hire > someone with an MFA-in-poetry-writing won't know whether that MFA-in- > poetry-writing is the result of the holder's seeking-out of a party > school in a party city (at one end of the spectrum) or of the > holder's seeking-out of a mail-order credential for commercial gain > (at the other end) -- at least not without a lot more information > about what each school's MFA-in-poetry-writing looks like. Zan writes: Anyone/institution thinking to hire someone with an MFA would certainly have taken that into consideration, I assure you. Marcus wrote: > But, astonishingly, what anyone hiring the holder of an MFA-in-poetry- > writing _does_ know, apparently, is that the MFA-in-poetry-writing > was certainly not intended either by the conferring school nor the > holder of the degree to produce better poems or a better poet. Zan writes: Which brings us back to the initial problem of definins what "better" might look like in ANYONE'S opinion. Marcus wrote: > Though David Graham disparages Alpaugh's views, it looks as if, from > the advice David says he himself gives to students, that David's own > practice lends support to Alpaugh's opinion. Zan: I think no such think has been proven through what David wrote. From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Jan 23 01:52:28 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 14:52:28 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prof of Po I -- Zan to Joseph References: <200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20030122092311.00ab3ba0@postoffice.brown.edu> <3E2EB0C1.6F17746F@villanova.edu> Message-ID: <003401c2c2ab$ff844590$5d864cca@jross3> Might it not even be a Nietzchean idea of perfectability -- uberpoetry? ... Still, I suppose that's Platonic, in essence. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lucia" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Prof of Po I > Henry -- > > Just jumping in to say that there's an awesome "nobility" and rather > frightening idealism in your conception of poetry (which seems utterly > de-historicized -- and I take it that poetry for you does in some way stand > _outside_ of history, outside of common social experience, in fact), but also a > kind of absurdity. Maybe even a Kierkegaardian absurdity in that nothing human > attains such a level of "purity," if that's what it is. The short of it may be > that the very notion of nobility has become for most of use in this time absurd in > all domains, poetry's included. But I admire your relentless Neoplatonic intensity > and insistence that poetry is elsewhere. I suspect that there's no way around > talking past each other in this context. > > > Henry Gould wrote: > > > This is exactly the kind of safe, cozy conception of poetry that serves to > > keep it in its stultifying place(s). On the contrary, I understand poetry > > to be the technical vehicle for the highest modes of human expression, and > > the embattled drama surrounding the fame of its manifestations is a > > consequence of its cultural importance. Milton's ambition, Dante's "alta > > fantasia", Blake's fire, Shakespeare's achievement, Dickinson's power, > > Whitman's universality, Virgil's soul, the Psalmist's vision - these are > > the exemplars of the highest art, on a par with the greatest composers & > > artists. Poetry is not your toy, and the Word is no one's academic hobbyhorse. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Jan 23 02:31:15 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:31:15 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1206 - 8 msgs References: <20030122081802.43B23100EA@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <010901c2c2b1$6ac0dee0$5d864cca@jross3> I loved my brief stay at the Rhode Island School of Design, and my contact with students and staff from the University of Rhode Island. Of course this was back in the Seventies, but it was fur sure snappin'. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 4:56 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1206 - 8 msgs > > > I also went to Brown and Honig was also my advisor and he thought I was a > total freak but I stored my 12' organ with two manuals and foot pedals at > his mansion, yes it was, and we got along. But he took me up only after S. > Foster Damon abandoned me because I didn't do enough else with the 700 > source bibliography on the delta blues to merit his attention and I was > tired as well of it all; Honig got me through I think grudgingly. I coulda > been a contender. It was Clark Coolidge who dropped out and for that > matter encouraged me, introduced me to Acconci, etc.; as well as I. A. > Richards earlier who kept me going. But no thanks to Brown per se. I think > I was hated there; ran into far too much classism and anti-semitism. Ended > up hanging around Rhode Island School of Design and University of Rhode > Island where everyone was more open, and sometimes on edge and furious - > Alan > > http://www.asondheim.org/ http://www.asondheim.org/portal/ > http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt > older http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html > Trace projects http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Jan 23 02:36:26 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:36:26 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] ten References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030122112711.00a9c620@postoffice.brown.edu> <5.1.1.6.0.20030122094657.01a90518@mail.ilstu.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20030122092311.00ab3ba0@postoffice.brown.edu> <02bb01c2c20c$b54306a0$62864cca@jross3> <200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20030122154708.00a98cf0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <011501c2c2b2$243ab670$5d864cca@jross3> Henry wrote: Greatness is not an objective thing, anyway. Art is a dream & greatness is in the eye of the beholder. But it's there, in the art. Zan writes: Could you possibly have contradicted yourself any more than in the above statement? One other thing: the beholder has to learn to read the "text" being offered. Perhaps this is why you cannot read anything modern/contemporary with any degree of comfort -- you don't know how to appreciate it. From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Jan 23 02:49:56 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:49:56 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] ten References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030122094657.01a90518@mail.ilstu.edu><4.3.2.7.2.20030122092311.00ab3ba0@postoffice.brown.edu><02bb01c2c20c$b54306a0$62864cca@jross3><200301201910.h0KJAhl23653@draco.services.brown.edu> <5.1.1.6.0.20030122140815.01b53800@mail.ilstu.edu> <008701c2c27f$995031c0$71eafea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <018401c2c2b4$06d3a270$5d864cca@jross3> But Bob, Gabe WASN'T asking you, so can remain with Switzerland on this topic. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ten > > But I tell you what you could do -- if you want to > > convince me you're not the chauvinist, though I know that you probably > > aren't interested in doing this, is, seeing as how you are so adept at > > knowing the real mccoy, known and unknown, to maybe name ten poets who are > > not white, not male, not European or American, and not canonized and whom > > you esteem as "greatest" and "highest." And give us a little taste of > their > > work in English. Whaddya think? You up for it? > > I don't know about Henry, but I sure as hell can't. If that makes me a > chauvinist, so be it. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Jan 23 02:50:44 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 15:50:44 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] ten References: <03B9F007-2E77-11D7-B255-000393C29586@mac.com> Message-ID: <018c01c2c2b4$239a93f0$5d864cca@jross3> Oh, Michael -- surely not!! *g* Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Snider" To: Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ten > > On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 08:34 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> But I tell you what you could do -- if you want to > >> convince me you're not the chauvinist, though I know that you probably > >> aren't interested in doing this, is, seeing as how you are so adept at > >> knowing the real mccoy, known and unknown, to maybe name ten poets > >> who are > >> not white, not male, not European or American, and not canonized and > >> whom > >> you esteem as "greatest" and "highest." And give us a little taste of > > their > >> work in English. Whaddya think? You up for it? > > > > I don't know about Henry, but I sure as hell can't. If that makes me a > > chauvinist, so be it. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > Guess I'm just a pig, too. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Jan 23 03:02:18 2003 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 16:02:18 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Emily Dickinson -- All We Read is FREAKS References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87044@mail.ripon.edu> <5.1.1.6.0.20030122202101.01a02498@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <01a201c2c2b5$c11bf820$5d864cca@jross3> Hell, I'd like to read it, too. Love Dickinson, hate teaching it as prescribed by the syllabus. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Gabriel Gudding To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 10:41 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Emily Dickinson -- All We Read is FREAKS Jeff, There is a fantastic article in the latest issue of _Oxford American_ (Jan/Feb 2003) called "All We Read is FREAKS" by William Bowers that treats Dickinson -- and how to teach Dickinson in a community college -- from a perspective that is down-to-earth, smart, gripping and never far from hilarious. I'm sure Henry'd say it cheapens Dickinson I'm sure. Too, you might try teaching her -- at least somewhat -- via the simultaneous parody and homage X.J. Kennedy did in _Emily Dickinson in Southern California_. Anyway, Bower even includes assignments -- *and* student responses to assignments. It is absolutely a brilliant article, at the level of pedagogy, and hilarious in-class reportage. He takes the reader step by stone through how he taught her. A colleague named Jan Susina put it in my mailbox today, a complete fluke, he thought I'd like it, and I did/do, it's brilliant. If you don't have near you or can't easily get _Oxford American_, backchannel your address and I'll send it to you. Gabe At 08:51 AM 1/22/2003 -0800, Jeff Newberry wrote: Howdy all, I know that we've all been arguing about MFAs and so forth, but I have a practical question about teaching that I hope some of you can address. Right now, in my American Lit survey, we're reading Emily Dickinson. I teach at a small agricultural college, so you can imagine how into Dickinson (and poetry in general) my students are. Yesterday, I gave them the Dickinson bio and some info about her in general: style, typographical quirks, typical subject matter, etc. However, when I moved into talking about the poems themselves, I felt completely at a loss. We have just come from talking about Whitman, and moving directly into Dickinson seems to have mystified (yes I'll admit it) both me and my students. Any tips on teaching Dickinson? On reading her poetry? Any teachers on list care to tell how you approach Dickinson's work? Thanks (and I hope this post isn't inappropriate), Jeff Newberry Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu Jan 23 07:44:42 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:44:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Emily Dickinson -- All We Read is FREAKS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030123074250.00ab61e0@postoffice.brown.edu> >Jeff, There is a fantastic article in the latest issue of _Oxford >American_ >(Jan/Feb 2003) called "All We Read is FREAKS" by William Bowers that >treats >Dickinson -- and how to teach Dickinson in a community college -- from a > >perspective that is down-to-earth, smart, gripping and never far from >hilarious. I'm sure Henry'd say it cheapens Dickinson I'm sure. Well, Gabriel, you're running the gamut. Now you're reduced to cheap shots. Not once, in the MFA thread, did I dismiss the teaching of literature. In fact I said the opposite: that writing programs should be integrated with such teaching from elementary school. Henry From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jan 23 07:57:27 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 07:57:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lit Plus Writ- Zan to Marcus In-Reply-To: <002c01c2c2ab$94b34d10$5d864cca@jross3> Message-ID: <3E2FA067.181.25D3F9@localhost> > Marcus wrote: > > Further, and more interestingly, what _is_ expected seems to be > > exactly what Alpaugh suggested: that an MFA-in-poetry-writing is > > pretty much just another credential for the marketplace. > Zan writes: > That's not what David said, if you read more carefully through his post. That's not what David _said_, agreed -- but it's what David's account of his own behavior says. Part of what _I_ said was that there is a discrepancy between what David says and what he says he does. > Marcus wrote: > Even more > > significant, though, it looks as if an MFA-in-poetry-writing isn't > > even worth much on the face of it, since anyone looking to hire > > someone with an MFA-in-poetry-writing won't know whether that MFA-in- > > poetry-writing is the result of the holder's seeking-out of a party > > school in a party city (at one end of the spectrum) or of the > > holder's seeking-out of a mail-order credential for commercial gain > > (at the other end) -- at least not without a lot more information > > about what each school's MFA-in-poetry-writing looks like. > Zan writes: > Anyone/institution thinking to hire someone with an MFA would certainly have > taken that into consideration, I assure you. Well, then, it seems obvious that there is no such thing as "an MFA" - - there are only "_____ School MFA"s, and that STILL argues powerfully that there is no consensus on, and no one can really say, what an MFA is _for_, other than what individual schools' MFA programs offer: a credential or a community. But it still doesn't appear that any MFA program claims to produce "better poets" or "better poems" -- they are only offering, if you've agreed with what I've said above, credentials or communities. > Marcus wrote: > > But, astonishingly, what anyone hiring the holder of an MFA-in-poetry- > > writing _does_ know, apparently, is that the MFA-in-poetry-writing > > was certainly not intended either by the conferring school nor the > > holder of the degree to produce better poems or a better poet. > Zan writes: > Which brings us back to the initial problem of definins what "better" might > look like in ANYONE'S opinion.<< Just so. And once again, it seems to me, your agreement on this, if agreement it is, demonstrates that the answer to "What is an MFA _for_?" seems to be either credential or community -- but not "better poems" or "better poets" because no MFA program defines what it means by "better poems" or "better poets" and offers to show those interested in _that kind of "better"_ how to get there. > Marcus wrote: > > Though David Graham disparages Alpaugh's views, it looks as if, from > > the advice David says he himself gives to students, that David's own > > practice lends support to Alpaugh's opinion. > Zan: > I think no such thing has been proven through what David wrote.< On what grounds do you think no such thing has been proven? David himself has said that his advice to his students, his practice in regard to MFA programs, is to get the students to consider whether they are looking for community or credentials, and to decide on that basis. His practice seems to be at odds with his theory. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jan 23 08:19:33 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:19:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ten In-Reply-To: <011501c2c2b2$243ab670$5d864cca@jross3> Message-ID: <3E2FA595.14151.3A1245@localhost> > Henry wrote: > Greatness is not an objective thing, anyway. Art is a dream & greatness is > in the eye of the beholder. But it's there, in the art. > > Zan writes: > ... One other thing: the beholder has to learn to read the "text" being offered. > Perhaps this is why you cannot read anything modern/contemporary with any > degree of comfort -- you don't know how to appreciate it.<< Oh come on, now -- this kind of personal attack, or any kind of personal attack, for that matter, is certainly out of bounds. The merits of the issue justify a seriousness of purpose (however witty one may try to be on the way) that excludes the merely _ad hominem_ from the discussion. As for ten contemporary poets, well, critics and poets in any age have been notorious for being wildly off the mark in evaluations of their contemporaries. It might be interesting to have the discussion, but in the end the invitation to declare ten contemporary poets who have written the right stuff is a validation of Henry Gould's declaration that poets have to write the right stuff. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From mandolin at mac.com Thu Jan 23 08:22:45 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:22:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ten Message-ID: <6607739.1043328165629.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> There's a discussion on how to survive artchats at 2blowhards (http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/000553.html#000553) --might help here. Best of luck-- Michael From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Jan 23 09:15:26 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:15:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Lit Plus Writ References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87044@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <006901c2c2e9$e07fb6f0$9001a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> People go into MFA programs because at some young and idealistic time in their lives, they think, as they should, that they will find a place, to paraphrase Keats, with the American poets. So they go where poets are, and where teachers are, and where they'll receive encouragement and a sense of community. A few of them reach that goal, most don't. Some of the ones who don't stay with it anyway, out of love. That probably characterizes most of us on this list. It's not a bad or stupid thing to do, and it doesn't hurt poetry. The ones who get, at some point, diverted into some other field, go into that other field knowing who Donald Justice and Gray Jacobik and Thyllias Moss and Nancy Willard and Rae Armentrout and Michael Harper are, which can't be a bad thing. My friend Bob Berner, who was on this list briefly but left because he couldn't stand discussions like this, was in the Iowa Workshop with me back in the early Sixties, eschewed an academic career, recently retired from the Post Office, and has remained a reader, student, astute critic and champion of poetry all his life. An MFA program success story? I'd say so. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham, David" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:18 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Lit Plus Writ > Marcus Bales: > > More importantly, though, none of the reasons to get an MFA-in-poetry- > writing that David listed is "to get better at writing poetry", or > "to become a better poet", or the like. It appears that no one really > expects an MFA-in-poetry-writing to produce better poetry or better > poets. > > > Sigh. . . . Marcus, I didn't provide that little list of options as > exhaustive. That people applying for MFA programs hope to get getter as > poets really ought to go without saying, I would have thought, but there, > I've said it. Your willful slipperyness here makes me disinclined to > respond in depth to the rest. > > But I will say this. Yes, there's a real problem here in terms of coming to > a firm agreement about what the MFA degree is *for*. I agree, and said so > previously. The plethora of options at different schools makes that clear > enough, as do the differing motives of students. > > But agreeing to that proposition hardly justifies the sort of leap that > Alpaugh and you then make, casting doubt on the value of all MFA programs > (as if they were all the same) and (without any evidence to speak of) > disparaging the academic study of creative writing generally. > > I think I'm finished with this topic until another day--strangely enough, I > have teaching to do, and none of it this semester (for this shamelessly > compromised MFA-wielding pawn of Po-Biz) involves teaching poetry writing to > future MFAs. I'm teaching Faulkner tomorrow, and *Black Elk Speaks* this > afternoon. . . . > ============================================ > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jan 23 09:46:18 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:46:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Lit Plus Writ In-Reply-To: <006901c2c2e9$e07fb6f0$9001a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <3E2FB9EA.23077.897F33@localhost> TheOldMole wrote: > People go into MFA programs because at some young and idealistic time in > their lives, they think, as they should, that they will find a place, to > paraphrase Keats, with the American poets. ...That probably characterizes most of > us on this list. It's not a bad or stupid thing to do, and it doesn't hurt > poetry. > The ones who get, at some point, diverted into some other field, go into > that other field knowing who Donald Justice and Gray Jacobik and Thyllias > Moss and Nancy Willard and Rae Armentrout and Michael Harper are, which > can't be a bad thing. But the diverted ones or the ones who stay in it out of love without being "professional" in the sense of teaching/granting aren't the issue, and no one said that they were hurting poetry or that the knowledge they or the diverted ones take with them out of such programs "hurt poetry". The question is whether the professionalization of the teaching/granting core cadre who come out of MFA-in-poetry-writing programs are "hurting poetry" by regarding the whole megillah as a job, a career, a profession, instead of doing it with a Gould-like passion (sorry, again, for getting the G-words mixed up in one post)? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Jan 23 09:41:19 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:41:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten References: Message-ID: <00d501c2c2ed$7e3d27d0$9001a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Paul -- thank you for this. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 3:49 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Ten > > > > Colonization in Reverse > -Louise Bennett (Jamaica) > > Wat a joyful news, miss Mattie, > I feel like me heart gwine burs > Jamaica people colonizin > Englan in Reverse > > By de hundred, by de tousan > >From country and from town, > By de ship-load, by de plane load > Jamica is Englan boun. > > Dem a pour out a Jamaica, > Everybody future plan > Is fe get a big-time job > An settle in de mother lan. > > What an islan! What a people! > Man an woman, old an young > Jus a pack dem bag an baggage > An turn history upside dung! > > Some people doan like travel, > But fe show dem loyalty > Dem all a open up cheap-fare- > To-England agency. > > An week by week dem shippin off > Dem countryman like fire, > Fe immigrate an populate > De seat a de Empire. > > Oonoo see how life is funny, > Oonoo see da turnabout? > jamaica live fe box bread > Out a English people mout'. > > For wen dem ketch a Englan, > An start play dem different role, > Some will settle down to work > An some will settle fe de dole. > > Jane says de dole is not too bad > Because dey payin she > Two pounds a week fe seek a job > dat suit her dignity. > > me say Jane will never fine work > At de rate how she dah look, > For all day she stay pon Aunt Fan couch > An read love-story book. > > Wat a devilment a Englan! > Dem face war an brave de worse, > But me wonderin how dem gwine stan > Colonizin in reverse. > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Jan 23 09:49:47 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:49:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ten References: <03B9F007-2E77-11D7-B255-000393C29586@mac.com> Message-ID: <010701c2c2ee$ad9da530$9001a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Guys -- no one can think of even ONE? Paul Lake did. It's a tough task -- do you mean NONE of those things, Gabe? All African or Asian women? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Snider" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 9:04 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] ten > > On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 08:34 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> But I tell you what you could do -- if you want to > >> convince me you're not the chauvinist, though I know that you probably > >> aren't interested in doing this, is, seeing as how you are so adept at > >> knowing the real mccoy, known and unknown, to maybe name ten poets > >> who are > >> not white, not male, not European or American, and not canonized and > >> whom > >> you esteem as "greatest" and "highest." And give us a little taste of > > their > >> work in English. Whaddya think? You up for it? > > > > I don't know about Henry, but I sure as hell can't. If that makes me a > > chauvinist, so be it. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > Guess I'm just a pig, too. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Jan 23 10:12:25 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:12:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Lit Plus Writ References: <3E2FB9EA.23077.897F33@localhost> Message-ID: <019b01c2c2f1$d5f33d30$9001a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Marcus -- I kinda understand that. I just don't think it's a very important question. Most people in any profession are ordinary, and I don't say that to be disparaging. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE:Lit Plus Writ > TheOldMole wrote: > > People go into MFA programs because at some young and idealistic time in > > their lives, they think, as they should, that they will find a place, to > > paraphrase Keats, with the American poets. ...That probably characterizes most of > > us on this list. It's not a bad or stupid thing to do, and it doesn't hurt > > poetry. > > The ones who get, at some point, diverted into some other field, go into > > that other field knowing who Donald Justice and Gray Jacobik and Thyllias > > Moss and Nancy Willard and Rae Armentrout and Michael Harper are, which > > can't be a bad thing. > > But the diverted ones or the ones who stay in it out of love without > being "professional" in the sense of teaching/granting aren't the > issue, and no one said that they were hurting poetry or that the > knowledge they or the diverted ones take with them out of such > programs "hurt poetry". > > The question is whether the professionalization of the > teaching/granting core cadre who come out of MFA-in-poetry-writing > programs are "hurting poetry" by regarding the whole megillah as a > job, a career, a profession, instead of doing it with a Gould-like > passion (sorry, again, for getting the G-words mixed up in one post)? > > > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mandolin at mac.com Thu Jan 23 11:04:14 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:04:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ten Message-ID: <4985027.1043337854805.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 09:49AM, TheOldMole wrote: >Guys -- no one can think of even ONE? Paul Lake did. > >It's a tough task -- do you mean NONE of those things, Gabe? All African or >Asian women? > You're leaving out West Indian, Native American, Polynesian, Melanesian, and Micronesian women. But seriously, as much I like the poem Paul Lake posted, I doubt he meant it to be an example of the "highest" or "greatest" poetry, whatever those things might mean. And since "uncanonized" probably means something like "relatively unknown," Gabe's set a pretty much impossible task unless you're willing to accept personal taste as the criteria for "highest" and "greatest." Best, Michael From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Thu Jan 23 11:11:51 2003 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:11:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] I do not hate to be rude, so Message-ID: please shut up. I'm tired of this thread. I actually resent my choice in entering it only to have my opinion reduced to a couple of sentences. There's a reason I quit posting to this list, and the last few days seem to only strengthen that silent position. I think I'd rather watch Fox News than listen to this debate. At least they have commercials to break up the monotony of repetition and resolutely (not necessarily considerately or rationally) defended positions. -Amber From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jan 23 11:13:11 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:13:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Lit Plus Writ Message-ID: <1c8.3fb0d2e.2b616e97@aol.com> In a message dated 1/23/03 9:40:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > The question is whether the professionalization of the > teaching/granting core cadre who come out of MFA-in-poetry-writing > programs are "hurting poetry" by regarding the whole megillah as a > job, a career, a profession, instead of doing it with a Gould-like > passion (sorry, again, for getting the G-words mixed up in one post)? Marcus, jumping back into this where I started off: Yes, that's a question-- Has the MFA in Poetry Writing (the granting of a professional sanction) hurt poetry (Poetry as an art)? Alpaugh, however, offers only a very broadbrush opinion that the advent of MA/MFA in Poetry Writing is doing harm. (I started this debate by citing Alpaugh's assertions. No one, to my knowledge, has countered by citing his proof sources. (Don't bother looking, you won't find any. Alpaugh's idea of proof is to harken back to Gioia's (in)famous opinion piece.) Setting aside for a moment if such his assertion could be proven, without a controlled experiment and lacking objective standards as to what constitutes proof of "betterment" or "harm," Alpaugh hasn't come up with even the barest of anecdoctal evidence as to the harm being done by this professional class of poetry mongers. (There is a Part II coming, o joy, so maybe he's holding back with real goods.) Finnegan From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jan 23 11:29:48 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:29:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] I do not hate to be rude, so In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3E2FD22C.26773.EA414@localhost> Prentiss, Amber wrote: > please shut up. I'm tired of this thread. ...<< Yes ma'am! By golly, I'm so sorry. I had no idea your opinion about what to talk about was dispositive on this list. I'll look forward to your index of acceptable topics by return post. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From languagethief at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 11:34:58 2003 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 08:34:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] ten In-Reply-To: <4985027.1043337854805.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030123163458.51393.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> Since those are such non-specific terms -- that's the greatest hamburger I ever ate! -- I'm not going to lose sleep over exactly what they mean. My point was to ask Gabe whether he meant to exclude all on his list at the same time, or whether we could mix and match. --- Michael Snider wrote: > On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 09:49AM, > TheOldMole wrote: > > >Guys -- no one can think of even ONE? Paul Lake > did. > > > >It's a tough task -- do you mean NONE of those > things, Gabe? All African or > >Asian women? > > > > You're leaving out West Indian, Native American, > Polynesian, Melanesian, and Micronesian women. But > seriously, as much I like the poem Paul Lake posted, > I doubt he meant it to be an example of the > "highest" or "greatest" poetry, whatever those > things might mean. And since "uncanonized" probably > means something like "relatively unknown," Gabe's > set a pretty much impossible task unless you're > willing to accept personal taste as the criteria for > "highest" and "greatest." > > Best, > > Michael > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jan 23 11:52:31 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:52:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Lit Plus Writ In-Reply-To: <1c8.3fb0d2e.2b616e97@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E2FD77F.26222.2370AB@localhost> > marcus at designerglass.com writes: > > The question is whether the professionalization of the > > teaching/granting core cadre who come out of MFA-in-poetry-writing > > programs are "hurting poetry" by regarding the whole megillah as a > > job, a career, a profession, instead of doing it with a Gould-like > > passion ...? Finnegan > ... Yes, that's a question-- > Has the MFA in Poetry Writing (the granting of a professional sanction) hurt > poetry (Poetry as an art)? ... > Setting aside for a moment if such his assertion could be proven, without > a controlled experiment and lacking objective standards as to what > constitutes proof of "betterment" or "harm," Alpaugh hasn't come up > with even the barest of anecdoctal evidence as to the harm being done > by this professional class of poetry mongers.<< Well, in these things there is never an objective standard, and scientific proof, though, is there. We have to make do with subjective standards and reasonable arguments. To that end, now that we've agreed on what the question is, it seems to me the next step is to agree on what the standards would look like, and then, if we can, on standards themselves -- subjective as those standards must be. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jan 23 11:56:09 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:56:09 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] ten In-Reply-To: <4985027.1043337854805.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: on 1/23/03 10:04 AM, Michael Snider at mandolin at mac.com wrote: > On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 09:49AM, TheOldMole > wrote: > >> Guys -- no one can think of even ONE? Paul Lake did. >> >> It's a tough task -- do you mean NONE of those things, Gabe? All African or >> Asian women? >> > > You're leaving out West Indian, Native American, Polynesian, Melanesian, and > Micronesian women. But seriously, as much I like the poem Paul Lake posted, I > doubt he meant it to be an example of the "highest" or "greatest" poetry, > whatever those things might mean. And since "uncanonized" probably means > something like "relatively unknown," Gabe's set a pretty much impossible task > unless you're willing to accept personal taste as the criteria for "highest" > and "greatest." > > Best, > > Michael > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > I don't know if Bennett's poem is among the "highest" or "greatest," but I like it. Gabe's challenge was pretty tough. I'd like to see HIS list of ten uncanonized, nonmale, non-European, non-American greats. I'm sure there are some mute inglorious Miltons out there, but are they unknown Shakespeares, Donnes, Yeatses, Dickensons . . . If so, I'd like to make their acquaintance. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jan 23 12:00:17 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 11:00:17 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] I do not hate to be rude, so In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 1/23/03 10:11 AM, Prentiss, Amber at aprentiss at agnesscott.edu wrote: > please shut up. I'm tired of this thread. I actually resent my choice in > entering it only to have my opinion reduced to a couple of sentences. > There's a reason I quit posting to this list, and the last few days seem to > only strengthen that silent position. I think I'd rather watch Fox News than > listen to this debate. At least they have commercials to break up the > monotony of repetition and resolutely (not necessarily considerately or > rationally) defended positions. > -Amber > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > Speaking of Fox News, while channel surfing last night, I cut in on an interview with Amiri Baraka on O'Reilly. Baraka was trying to defend his notorious 9/11 poem and actually made himself seem even wackier than the poem itself. Those who thought the poem was ironic might be surprised to hear the Baraka really does think Bush knew in advance about the attack and allowed it--only one of several bizarre opinions. Anybody else catch the interview? Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From barry.spacks at verizon.net Thu Jan 23 12:57:13 2003 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 09:57:13 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Worn Threads & Genius Poetry Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030123095130.00a2db30@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:01 PM 1/23/03 -0500, Amber Prentiss wrote: > please shut up. I'm tired of this thread. I truly sympathize, Amber -- but which thread did you have in mind? Barry oh, on the Dickinson question, I happen to be teaching her unabating amazements right now, had a great class yesterday (with visitor David Ferry sitting in) simply talking around the group, winkling out insights as to how the poet's effects pull together, with some side notes on Puritanism/Transcendentalism -- in short, simply worrying at enigmas, helping them to bloom in the mind, a wonderfully old-fashioned kind of lit class experience: ah, just make New Criticism new! Students love to puzzle things out, especially if the teacher confesses that he has no idea what or if a particular text "means." Can't resist copying one -- uncharacteristically not difficult -- that we enjoyed with out-loud laughter, Dickinson in her gloriously funny mood (God here doesn't *use* a Telescope, the notorious non-Napster IS one): (413) I never felt at Home -- Below -- And in the Handsome Skies I shall not feel at Home -- I know -- I don't like Paradise -- Because it's Sunday -- all the time -- And Recess -- never comes -- And Eden'll be so lonesome Bright Wednesday Afternoon -- If God could make a visit -- Or ever took a Nap -- So not to see us -- but they say Himself -- a Telescope Perennial beholds us -- Myself would run away From Him -- and Holy Ghost -- and All -- But there's the "Judgment Day"! **************************************** (blessed funny Emily -- great Teacher -- alive -- and well -- and dressed in White and living forever at Amherst) From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Jan 23 13:27:11 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:27:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Lit Plus Writ Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87049@mail.ripon.edu> I said I was bowing out of this thread, and now this. Very well then, I contradict myself. . . . One fairly simple & (I hope) noncontentious thought: Seems to me that part of the reason for the heat in this thread is that several related but distinct issues are being conflated. (Maybe that's true of all heated arguments?) a) On one hand, there is the matter of poetry's "institutionalization" in MFA programs, and whether this has been a bad or a good thing for the larger institution of poetry. An historical/philosophical question. b) A related but distinct question, one that was bait to my own hook, involves the matter of how and how well MFA programs are educating aspiring poets. A pedagogical/curricular question. c) Also related, but importantly different, is the question of what the MFA degree is *for*, and what MFA poets do with their lives. Many/most don't in fact teach; and among those who do, they mostly don't teach in MFA programs. A vocational question--ignored by Alpaugh and most other commentators. (Thank you, Tad Richards, for picking up on this particular point.) d) Yet another matter involves the age-old question of whether poetry (or any art) can be taught at all. A hopeless question. There are other questions, I'm sure, so this ain't an exhaustive list. . . . I'm very interested in (b) and (c), myself, being an MFA poet who teaches, though not in a writing program. I confess that (a) and (d) intrigue me very little at the moment, in part because it will be very difficult to get down to specifics. As Finnegan and I have both noted, arguments like Alpaugh's rely heavily upon assertion and not evidence for both matters, and ultimately this is boring, not to mention unpersuasive. About what might be called the estate of poetry, I worry very little. I've got enough to do worrying about my own writing and teaching. But in the most decisive sense, it's more than a little futile to spend a lot of time fussing about the larger Instutition of Poetry and its good health. We just don't know, really, and the best we can do is try to work locally to improve things, I think. The future will sort things out as always, and currently hot movements like new-formalism or language poetry will be accepted or bypassed by readers of the future. The future will reliably distinguish, too, between excellent conventional poets (Longfellow) and original geniuses (Whitman), at the same time distinguishing both from the hacks. Right now, well, most of us are probably wrong in our predictions. History suggests that there is in fact very little I can do to influence history's judgment, even if I considered it my duty to try, as some poets seem to. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: JforJames at aol.com > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 10:13 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE:Lit Plus Writ > > In a message dated 1/23/03 9:40:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, > marcus at designerglass.com writes: > > > The question is whether the professionalization of the > > teaching/granting core cadre who come out of MFA-in-poetry-writing > > programs are "hurting poetry" by regarding the whole megillah as a > > job, a career, a profession, instead of doing it with a Gould-like > > passion (sorry, again, for getting the G-words mixed up in one post)? > Marcus, jumping back into this where I started off: Yes, that's a > question-- > Has the MFA in Poetry Writing (the granting of a professional sanction) > hurt > poetry (Poetry as an art)? Alpaugh, however, offers only a very broadbrush > opinion that the advent of MA/MFA in Poetry Writing is doing harm. > (I started this debate by citing Alpaugh's assertions. No one, to my > knowledge, > has countered by citing his proof sources. (Don't bother looking, you > won't find any. Alpaugh's idea of proof is to harken back to Gioia's > (in)famous > opinion piece.) > Setting aside for a moment if such his assertion could be proven, without > a controlled experiment and lacking objective standards as to what > constitutes proof of "betterment" or "harm," Alpaugh hasn't come up > with even the barest of anecdoctal evidence as to the harm being done > by this professional class of poetry mongers. (There is a Part II coming, > > o joy, so maybe he's holding back with real goods.) > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Jan 23 14:46:34 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:46:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Worn Threads & Genius Poetry Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E8704A@mail.ripon.edu> By all means, let's talk about teaching poetry. . . . More Dickinson tales, please! I love Dickinson's work, too, and teach at least a poem or two every term, but I've all too rarely had the sort of experience Barry describes, alas. Grudging respect and admiration is about the most I've been able to achieve with most lower-level undergrad classes, while Whitman and others always seem to turn on the lights for many students. Don't know quite why: my teaching style doesn't change radically, and I'm able to put over many other challenging authors. In general, I can testify to the effectiveness of the move (not really a technique, more a matter of stance) that Barry describes--going into a class with one's own questions and exploring them with the students rather than lecturing at them. My experience has been that once you convince students that you're honestly not sure of what a poem means yourself, and are not going to pounce immediately upon their faltering attempts and "correct" them, they do relax and enjoy critique. Then they often correct themselves; and, if not, they handle it much better later on when the instructor straightens things out as necessary. Luckily, there are many great poems whose meanings I remain unsure about. . . . ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 23 16:11:18 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:11:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Poetry In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E8704A@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <20030123211118.11581.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> My students seemed absolutely floored that I would admit to to them that some of Dickinson's poems mystified me. Perhaps they've never had a teacher admit that he (or she) didn't know; perhaps I was a real control freak when I taught Whitman. Either way, we screened the Dickinson Voices and Visions video that Sam recommended. It went over well; I showed the Whitman one earlier this semester. During our discussion of the poems, we got into a debate over "There's a Certain Slant of Light." One student read it as a quasi-relgious poet, pointing to Dickinson's Judeo-Christian upbringing and balancing that background against Dickinson's own transcendentalism and pantheism. Some of my students felt that it was a poem about nature--nothing else. Still others sat, picking their noses and staring at my increasingly-bald head (and I'm only 28). Me--I was busy wondering if, indeed, much madness *is* the divinest sense . . . Cheers, Jeff Newberry www.abac.edu/jnewberry "Graham, David" wrote:By all means, let's talk about teaching poetry. . . . More Dickinson tales, please! I love Dickinson's work, too, and teach at least a poem or two every term, but I've all too rarely had the sort of experience Barry describes, alas. Grudging respect and admiration is about the most I've been able to achieve with most lower-level undergrad classes, while Whitman and others always seem to turn on the lights for many students. Don't know quite why: my teaching style doesn't change radically, and I'm able to put over many other challenging authors. In general, I can testify to the effectiveness of the move (not really a technique, more a matter of stance) that Barry describes--going into a class with one's own questions and exploring them with the students rather than lecturing at them. My experience has been that once you convince students that you're honestly not sure of what a poem means yourself, and are not going to pounce immediately upon their faltering attempts and "correct" them, they do relax and enjoy critique. Then they often correct themselves; and, if not, they handle it much better later on when the instructor straightens things out as necessary. Luckily, there are many great poems whose meanings I remain unsure about. . . . ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jan 23 17:27:11 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:27:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Meeting Follow-UP Message-ID: <1c5.3fe5f76.2b61c63f@aol.com> Christine, As follow-up to last night's meeting, a few things: 1) Fundraising Letters: I think we should go ahead and begin drafting our fund-raising letters. Preparing for the fund-raising mailings. Though Louise is correct, I'm sure, about approaching certain key individuals on a personal basis, there are many prospective smaller givers (Poets, Stevens Scholars,etc.) who we won't be making a person-to-person pitches to and we should starting gearing up to get those fundraising letters in the mail. One-Page Insert: Also, I forgot to bring up the on-page letter insert. I sent you that mock-up. But we probably need to give this to a designer and get a professional looking 1-page insert that "shows & tells" about The WS Walk, and has a tear-off portion for donation. 2) HPL: Are we changing addresses or not? If we keep the library as the address, we've got to get that feedback loop going. I find it unbelievable that Louise brought a financial report to the meeting showing $960 in memberships, which from my review of past financial reports may be the most we've ever received from memberships, and there was no back-up: no letters, no forms, no copies of checks. 3) Membership Drive: I found some more names in the files; and I'm going to try to get a WS list from Cathy D'Italia once more. I'd be capable of doing a second membership mailing, but if I don't get the details back from the Library within the month I'm going to suggest at the next meeting that we abandon membership drives altogether. 4) WSW Donations: You mentioned at the meeting it was important to have 100% donation support from the board. But do we even know who has given so far? Also, Dennis reminded me his grant for the scholarship ($500) and for the Walk ($1000) is subject to an UTC match. He's going to speak to Louise and try to make certain it gets done. 5) IRS Form 990: We ddin't get into that matter of the Form 990 last night. We need to find out: Do we or don't we need to complete that form. Are we jeopardizing our nonprofit status by not getting it filed annually? We might need to see if any of Dan's contacts at the CT Commision for Arts can point us to an accountant who is willing to give us a little pro-bono advice. Right now, if we were sitting in front of The Hartford grant evaluator and s/he asked me, "Why didn't you file you a Form 990 in 2001?," I wouldn't have a clue as to what to say. 6) WSW Brochure Reprint: I didn't get a sense of how many brochures are left, did you? We're probably going to have to get a quote for a reprint. Do you know what printer did the first run? Is the design on disk somewhere? Also, since we won't meeting at the HPL any longer, we should probably scoop up the remaining stock. Jim F From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jan 23 17:31:51 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 17:31:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] oops... Message-ID: <67.7fcb2a5.2b61c757@aol.com> Sorry List, that of course wasn't supposed to go to the list. Finnegan From CAConrad9 at aol.com Thu Jan 23 18:51:49 2003 From: CAConrad9 at aol.com (CAConrad9 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 18:51:49 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry Message-ID: In a message dated 01/22/2003 7:13:17 AM, ganesha at dezzanet.net.au writes: << > > Ah, I love the MFA debate. What about those of us who get into a program in > order to study under a particular poet? Isn't that a good enough reason to > get into an MFA program? To find a mentor that you wish to study under? > > jason > > >> whatever works for you, of course. and as far as bothering with the pro & con of an MFA debate, well, frankly, poets like other people get tunnel vision not because they don't care, but because they do. and all the name calling and bitching that goes on in the process is kind of amusing and not to be taken seriously. afterall, it's just words. and we ARE poets, who should have the room for words, however and whoever. good luck with your journey, CAConrad from the sounds of Philadelphia From CAConrad9 at aol.com Thu Jan 23 19:10:09 2003 From: CAConrad9 at aol.com (CAConrad9 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 19:10:09 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Prof of Po I "if people will leave me alone on this."??????? Message-ID: In a message dated 01/22/2003 4:59:26 PM, Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes: << I am sorry to take up the airwaves so much with these arguments. Am quitting now, if people will leave me alone on this. >> are you by chance the Huffy Henry for Berryman's Dream Songs? leave you alone? why on earth should anyone leave you alone? no one is standing over you about to clobber you with a blunt object! your points are ALWAYS interesting, and there's no reason for you to act as if you need to flee the topic, or the list for that matter. WHO CARES if other poets agree or disagree!? people get so silly with their seriousness on these lists. maybe being raised by lawyers can actually do that to someone? well you're poet, not a lawyer. and even if you are a lawyer, i hope the poet part of you could withstand conflict. CONFLICT breeds change. poetry flourishes in conflict, creates new surfaces, maybe even polishes some old ones. CAConrad from the sounds of Philadelphia From luap at mallasch.com Thu Jan 23 21:29:43 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:29:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] is this the selfsame Marcus Bales? In-Reply-To: <3E2D31FD.16128.E485B9@localhost> Message-ID: (or, why i dig poetry, academic or otherwise...) I came across tonight in a search for sources to write a humorous essay for a semi-technical crowd and after googling for a few i found a gem called 'Abort Retry Ignore' i had only to read the first few lines and i smiled then & in that moment what poetry is or was or can fin- ally be was known (at least to me ;) -kpaul the poem i stumbled on is here: http://www.oceanwave.com/technical-resources/humor/abort-retry-ignore.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jan 23 22:28:11 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 22:28:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry Message-ID: <19e.fcd3035.2b620ccb@cs.com> I don't want to add further to this endless debate, but I can tell you that I pursued the M.F.A. for three reasons: 1. to get a degree that would allow me to teach on the college level and 2. to concentrate in writing rather than in scholarship and 3. to have the opportunity to work with a group of other poets--professors, visiting writers, and fellow students. Along the way I got a conventional M.A. in English. I was in a Ph.D. program for a year after completing the M.F.A. but was in it because I couldn't find a job the first year out (1972) and because I had a fellowship that subsidized that final year of study. I frankly don't think I could have ever completed a conventional dissertation. I know about other programs strictly from hearsay, and I do know that some are obviously much more rigorous than others. From what I can gather from the AWP Guide to Writing Programs, it seems that the degree requirements of my M.F.A. (Arkansas) do not differ much from what are now the Ph.D. requirements at other institutions. But the AWP Guide clearly spells out what each program requires, and individuals choose programs based on what they are prepared to do and how well they have been prepared to do it. Despite my having the M.F.A., I do not dispute very seriously what Gioia said years ago except to say that as an undergraduate I had only limited opportunity to talk with other poets and no opportunity to study with one. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that the serious study of poetry is largely confined to the universities--theology is something that affects the religious beliefs of virtually all Americans, but its serious study is centered in the seminary. If the universities had not provided sanctuary to poets and poetry, where would they have gone? It is a hopeful sign that in recent years poetry has become to a degree more populist in its base, but whatever support it got from non-specialist, i.e., "middle-brow" readers and the magazines that are aimed at them has diminished over the years. But the blame for this should not be laid at the feet of the M.F.A. programs; why not instead demand that newspapers, popular magazines, and the media give more attention to poetry specifically (and to culture generally)? When I was a kid, I can remember the media networks feeling that they had some kind of obligation to culture--shows like Bernstein's children's concerts, Omnibus, and the live drama on tv in the 50s and early 60s. Still, that function has been taken up to some degree by PBS, A&E, Discovery Civilization, and other cable channels--and I can still look back to series like Voices & Visions, Biography, Great Performances, Live from the Met, etc. as providing informative broadcasts on poetry, music, drama, and the lives of artists of all stripes. I do hope that Gioia's appointment to the NEA directorship will do some good in expanding the opportunities of people to experience the arts, especially those of our citizens who live hundreds of miles from an opera house or concert stage. Does the proliferation of M.F.A. programs sponsor a kind of professionalism that is not to the good? Perhaps. But no more than academic degrees in other disciplines prepare students to advance in their professions. The problem lies in the sheer number of M.F.A.s turned out each year; obviously there are not enough teaching jobs available for all of them--assuming, of course, that they were trained (as I was) for a teaching degree. One of the other arguments I have seen here seems to say that students in M.F.A. programs study only a limited range of contemporary poetry and are taught only how to write for the contemporary "marketplace," whatever that is. This failure should not be put on the programs themselves; it is more the failure of the individual. A poet who limits him- or herself only to the demands of the syllabus and degree plan might as well be enrolled in a job-training program. While I value the instruction of my teachers and the comments of my peers in graduate school, if I had not done the bulk of my reading outside of the required list and hadn't felt that a large measure of what I learned about poetry was done in the wee small hours on my own, I would be ashamed to call myself "educated" in any meaningful sense of the term--and I shudder to think that "education" ends the moment that one clutches the degree in hand and walks off the stage. Many poets here are proud to say that they learned poetry on their own (creeds and schools in abeyance, as Walt would have said), and I say more power to them and god bless the effort. But being in an M.F.A. program allowed me to compare my notes with those taken by my friends in their own hours of solitude. I was glad to have the company, and I value it to this day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Jan 23 22:56:45 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 21:56:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] bower birds In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030123074250.00ab61e0@postoffice.brown.edu> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030123135434.01a64e38@mail.ilstu.edu> Okay, I've just stuck 6 copies of the Bowers article in the mail. Am afraid I've exhausted my superpowers for today copying and mailing. And Henry, I meant no offense, and certainly please don't think I was taking a cheap shot: I know you approach literature with reverence and awe, that you think of Dickinson as among the greatest and the highest and that you don't want people treating great literature like a toy, and the article shows a versatile teacher teaching her in various ways, via rap and hip hop, via ways I really did suspect you'd consider, probably, low and demeaning. So I didn't think I was being disrespectful and it kind of chagrins me that that's the way it was taken. My apologies to you, again. No cheap shot was meant. I should take more time with these emails when the sticket gets wicky. :) gabe At 07:44 AM 1/23/2003 -0500, Henry Gould wrote: >>Jeff, There is a fantastic article in the latest issue of _Oxford >>American_ >>(Jan/Feb 2003) called "All We Read is FREAKS" by William Bowers that >>treats >>Dickinson -- and how to teach Dickinson in a community college -- from a >> >>perspective that is down-to-earth, smart, gripping and never far from >>hilarious. I'm sure Henry'd say it cheapens Dickinson I'm sure. > > >Well, Gabriel, you're running the gamut. Now you're reduced to cheap >shots. Not once, in the MFA thread, did I dismiss the teaching of >literature. In fact I said the opposite: that writing programs should be >integrated with such teaching from elementary school. > >Henry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu Jan 23 23:10:29 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry_Gould at brown.edu) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:10:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Prof of Po I "if people will leave me alone..." Message-ID: <200301240410.h0O4ATv03055@perseus.services.brown.edu> Thank you, CAConrad. Yes, I AM HUFFY HENRY OF THE BERRYMAN SONNETS. My mother could look out the window from her parent's house & see the icebound bridge over the Mississippi where Berryman would take his leap, & where her son (my brother) would do the same (luckily in summer, & survive). If I remember I'll publish a poem on the blog tomorrow looking out that window. (http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com) Jim Finnegan, blessed be he (& good luck with the WS Society), wants statistics to prove that MFA Programs are BAD. Henry wants to prove that he holds the Great Ball O'Flaming Poetry in his hands. Joe Lucia is right about the absurdity. I think I deflect a certain ressentiment about Fame onto the academy, and that is at the root of the antagonism. We have left out the factor of Prestige, maybe because I haven't cracked Bourdieu like a dutiful grad student. What is Prestige in Poetry? It's a certain symbiotic relationship between Critical Attention and Poetic Production, or 3 Aces in 5-card Stud. Prestige in Poetry means writing humane, intelligent & well-considered Essays about Poetry or related Arts for the major PRINT journals (NYRB, TLS, etc) while simultaneously publishing Poems in prestigious Magazines & winning certain Awards for book publication. That's the ONLY way to actually be recognized as a Heavyweight in this Lightweight arena. The absurdity develops because the USA is such a rich powerful & developed Nation with SO MANY VENUES FOR SELF-EXPRESSION, including Poetry Chat Lists, Blogs, MFA Programs, Poetry Clubs & reading Venues, Subcultural Cliques,! Self-Improvement-Therapy Regimes... you name it. The ARMY OF LIGHTWEIGHT POETRY marches on, mouth wide open!!!!! So here's my unstatistical take on the screw-ups of the whole scene: 1. Poetry is the most hermetic, self-reflexive, narcissistic, dangerous artistic-intellectual project anyone can undertake, because it's possible to create pure poesie with very little contact with the outside world. 2. MFA programs dutifully propose to teach an art, the basic ruling factors of which are uncontrollable: talent, fame, obscurity, popularity, independence, originality, integrity, character,luck; these are replaced in the program with: networking, mentorship, careerism, study, practice, etc. 3. The MASS VENUES FOR SELF-EXPRESSION allow for all kinds of compensations to the army of poets who fail to undertake or fail to succeed at the royal road to actual prestige (publication of poems & essays in major print outlets; critical & popular attention; innate talent linked with drive to say something important). 4. Thus, finally, the 2 approaches which are meaningful (solitary integrity/originality OR strong intelligent assertion in prestige publications) are obscured & blurred by the 2 approaches which are compensatory (the academic/subculture networks OR the MASS VENUES FOR SELF-EXPRESSION). Plus I'm not famous. Sorry I don't have any stats on this. Henry From MillB at aol.com Thu Jan 23 23:39:12 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:39:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Professionalization of Poetry Message-ID: <1db.ac4bd2.2b621d70@aol.com> My Two Cents It was 1989, and I was sitting around my apartment in Long Beach with Ph.D. catalogues piled high (pun intended). I was working on my thesis (Words Made Flesh: Sexuality in Comus and Goblin Market) and planning for an academic future. At some point (between reading the foreign language requirements and the realization of what it would mean to teach Renaissance Literature the rest of my days), I opted out. Instead of all that, I went for an MPW at USC, a degree program that is meant to graduate working writers. Not teachers. Not necessarily poets or screen writers, but Jacks of all Trades. The notion of spending my days writing for a living, rather than solely teaching, delighted me. After two years of taking courses in comedy, drama, business writing, poetry, fiction, nonfiction from the likes of Bill Matthews, Hubert Selby, Shirley Thomas, John Rechy, Gay Talese, James Ragan, and Betty Friedan, I received my degree. It was two years to learn a craft, earn a community, establish a repertoire and deal with survival. I am thankful. Today, I make my living as a writer, supplementing poetry and fiction with technical writing, grants (my own and others) and, yes, sometimes adjunct teaching. I do not know what would have happened to me if I had attended an MFA program where I had focused just on poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Fri Jan 24 02:44:02 2003 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:44:02 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching Emily Dickinson References: <200301221737.h0MHbY2d029355@dept.english.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <3E30EEC3.D4B216B4@earthlink.net> Bravo, Mike! My experiences somewhat similar though with different poems.... chris Michael Magee wrote: > Hi all, I've had a very different experience teaching Dickinson than the > ones stated so far, for whatever reason. I think she's teachable as hell > and my students tend to love her. My suggestion would be to teach some of > the poems where there is clearly a lot at stake socially and, let's say, > intellectually. A very great one that I don't hear all that much about is > #199, "I'm 'wife' -- I've finshed that --". Allowing of course that > veryone has their opinion's on such things, this poem seems to me one of > the great poems in English. More importantly, students end up digging it > and getting alot out of what it has to say about the relationship between > language/names/titles and identity (and if you're so inclined you can to > cultural studies stuf abour marriage and property etc.) You can teach it > with 613, "They shut me up in prose" to great affect. And then, for a > smash finally 1072, "Title divine -- is mine! / The Wife -- without the > Sign!" I sometimes teach these alongside her letters to Susie Gilbert. > > Other teachables among my smash hits: 632, 1545, 303, 341. > > -m. > > > > > According to Rsgwynn1 at cs.com: > > > --part1_17c.159c4e3a.2b602952_boundary > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > In a message dated 1/22/2003 10:52:06 AM Central Standard Time, > > jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: > > > However, when I moved into talking about the poems themselves, I felt > > > completely at a loss. We have just come from talking about Whitman, and > > > moving directly into Dickinson seems to have mystified (yes I'll admit it) > > > both me and my students. > > > > > > Any tips on teaching Dickinson? On reading her poetry? Any teachers on > > > list care to tell how you approach Dickinson's work? > > > > > > > > Dickinson always is a dud for me too, and I teach a similar course to similar > > students. After all of Walt's big ideas and bluster, she comes across as > > anti-climactic. I have much more luck teaching her to poets and advanced > > students. So much of her greatness resides in her vocabulary, and that's > > something that's lost on lower-division students. One of my favorites with > > poetry students is to give them a Dickinson poem with blanks where certain > > words should be, then give them the defintion for each word and see what they > > come up with when they fill in the blanks. This is the sort of thing De > > Snodgrass does in his DeConstructions, an interesting book. Dickinson amazes > > me as a poet who can mix plain diction with the unexpected unfamiliar word, > > but I think writers are the only ones who can really appreciate this. > > Lower-division students can't see much difference between the following > > version and the original, alas. > > > > > > There is no warship like a book > > To take us far away > > Nor any fast horse like a page > > Of lively poetry. > > > > This journey may the poorest take > > Without excessive toll. > > How inexpensive is the car > > That bears the human soul. > > > > --part1_17c.159c4e3a.2b602952_boundary > > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > In a message dated 1/22/2003 10:52:06 AM Central Standard Time, jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes:
> >
However, when I moved into talking about the poems themselves, I felt completely at a loss.  We have just come from talking about Whitman, and moving directly into Dickinson seems to have mystified (yes I'll admit it) both me and my students.
> >
> > Any tips on teaching Dickinson?  On reading her poetry?  Any teachers on list care to tell how you approach Dickinson's work? 
> >
> >

> > Dickinson always is a dud for me too, and I teach a similar course to similar students.  After all of Walt's big ideas and bluster, she comes across as anti-climactic.  I have much more luck teaching her to poets and advanced students.  So much of her greatness resides in her vocabulary, and that's something that's lost on lower-division students.  One of my favorites with poetry students is to give them a Dickinson poem with blanks where certain words should be, then give them the defintion for each word and see what they come up with when they fill in the blanks.  This is the sort of thing De Snodgrass does in his DeConstructions, an interesting book.  Dickinson amazes me as a poet who can mix plain diction with the unexpected unfamiliar word, but I think writers are the only ones who can really appreciate this.  Lower-d! > ivi > > sion students can't see much difference between the following version and the original, alas.
> >
> >      
> > There is no warship like a book
> > To take us far away
> > Nor any fast horse like a page
> > Of lively poetry.
> >
> > This journey may the poorest take
> > Without excessive toll.
> > How inexpensive is the car
> > That bears the human soul. > > > > --part1_17c.159c4e3a.2b602952_boundary-- > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Jan 24 07:39:58 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 07:39:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] is this the selfsame Marcus Bales? In-Reply-To: References: <3E2D31FD.16128.E485B9@localhost> Message-ID: <3E30EDCE.28574.112772@localhost> K. Paul Mallasch wrote: >... i smiled then & > in that moment > what poetry > is or was > or can > fin- > ally > be > was > known > (at least to me ;) A more recent version is here: http://www.poppyfields.net/filks/00311.html And if you liked that one, try this: http://www.poppyfields.net/filks/00310.html Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Fri Jan 24 08:19:42 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 08:19:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: my 2 cents Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030124074909.00a91bb0@postoffice.brown.edu> I like this story, don't know who sent it (about taking program for working writers). I think it supports what I mentioned early on in this excruciating thread, about how the teaching of writing ought to be integrated with journalism & other forms of public discourse. Now to continue with my 2,000 cents. It was a mistake to say (as I did too late last night) that at the root of my animus about the prof of po was a ressentiment or envy about the real access channel - the authority offered by prestige publication. At the root of it actually are some other factors, the (mis)understanding of which may be in part a generational thing. The generation raised in an age of lit theory, academic ideology wars, & "professionalized" poetry may not be able to relate to the generation I came in at the tail end of, from the 50s & 60s - when the poet was something between Dylan Thomas, Sylvia Plath, Allen Ginsberg & James Dickey, something between a verbal prestigitator & a mystical beast. I grew up on the poetry of the NY School anthologies, which was defiantly wacky, rational only to a limited degree, simultaneously detached & subversive. Liminal. Furthermore, on top of this, I went through a very intense vocational/psychological/spiritual crisis as an undergraduate. When you think that the spirits of Christ & Shakespeare are present in your room & struggling for your soul, when you think you're Faust & the Devil knocks at the door at midnight for your literary sins, you can imagine the intellectual conflicts this kind of liminal experience might cause - the disequilibrium between the reasonable & the revelatory, the rational & the mystical, the calling & the career. The impact of these experiences forced me to renounce both poetry & academia for almost a decade. & they only reinforced in my mind the belief that I would only be able to compose & present poetry from a position of utter, unmediated autonomy. The desire for autonomy was not a willful desire: it was a recognition on my part that I simply COULD NOT WRITE ANYTHING unless I tried to bring my whole being into a sphere of vision & freedom. Think of these lines from Ed Dorn, which I quoted in the interview with Kent Johnson in Jacket magazine (http://jacketmagazine/10/johnson-iv-gould.html ): To a poet all authority except his own is an expression of Evil and it is all external authority that he expiates this is the culmination of his traits. This is actually a kind of arrogant, shamanic authority; which, depending on what the poet ultimately chooses as the sources of HIS/HER authority, can either be daemonic or devotional (or maybe both) - but in EITHER case, for said poet, it can be very hard to align with the settled arrangements of the community (political, academic or otherwise). Think of Berryman's agonized literary late "conversion", conducted in full view of the literary public. Now I will try to post the poem I mentioned about the river near Berryman's bridge on the blog ( http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com ). Henry From dbarone at sjc.edu Fri Jan 24 10:09:49 2003 From: dbarone at sjc.edu (Barone, Dennis) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:09:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] stevens Message-ID: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249001BA19AA@sjcmail.sjc.edu> These lines from Wallace Stevens made me think of President Bush and the present: He would not be aware of the lake. He would be the lunatic of one idea In a world of ideas, who would have all the people Live, work, suffer and die in that idea In a world of ideas. He would not be aware of the clouds, Lighting the martyrs of logic with white fire. His extreme of logic would be illogical. From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jan 24 11:25:38 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 10:25:38 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Halliday & Blurbage Message-ID: One of my small bright pleasures is awaiting each new book by Mark Halliday, whose back-cover copy is always an entertainment, and nearly worth the price in itself. The flap copy on his most recent collection (*Jab*, U Chicago) begins with this beguiling notice, whose author is not hard to guess: "Human, hunger, happiness, hope, heart, and Halliday all start with *h*, as does ham. Accident? Maybe! But seldom have the flour of the humanistic and the egg yolk of honesty mixed more swellingly with the yeast of desire and the salt of self-doubt--not to mention the olive past of ambition. Halliday has whacked Death and Mutabilitie before, but this time. . . this time he whacks them again. After this *Jab*, the world will never be the same. Or at least, a few hundred conversations, here and there, will be somewhat affected. Roll over Death, and tell Mutabilitie the news." This time out, Halliday has also persuaded some colleagues (Jerry Williams, Martha Rhodes, Cathleen Calbert) to contribute blurbs in a similar vein. And a certain Linda Bamber, unknown to me, whose identity I have my own theory about, writes the following: "These poems are OK, I guess, if you like poems that CANNOT GET OVER how the point of life or a good feeling about yourself just WILL NOT stick around and then you're left eating your son's leftover pizza crust and dealing with such spectacularly mundane interstitial moments of existence that you have to invent new words like drammel and fedge to represent them at all." All in all, these notices are rather a good introduction to the inimitable work of Halliday, one of my favorite serious comedians. Here's a small sample from the new book-- Parkersburg I will arise now and put on a black baseball cap and go to Parkersburg. It will fit me, the cap will, and it will be black, the sneakers on my feet will be purple, and I will not have shaved for three days. The day will be rainy and cool and I will wear an old jacket of pale wool that was once my Uncle Lew's. And go to Parkersburg. On a bus I may go or in an old car full of tapes-- Elmore James. Fred McDowell. The Kinks. Into the town of Parkersburg on a day so rainy and cool. And I will be terrifically untroubled if anyone thinks I am strange, in fact everything about this day will be a ratification of how I am not them; and my manner, though courteous, will tend to make them suspect that they are boring. They will wonder why they have no purple sneakers. Cool and lightly rainy in Parkersburg and me all day there exactly as if my belief had long been firm; not forgetting for one minute how I felt listening to "I'm Different" by Randy Newman years ago and the sacred tears in my eyes at that time. I and my black baseball cap will enter a tavern and there we will read a French poet with such concentration it will be like I am that guy. Then pretty soon in another tavern it is a Spanish poet whom I read with similar effect. Parkersburg! Oh my Parkersburg ... And I swear, though I might not meet a lonely marvelous slim woman with black hair, it will still be as if I did. ******************************* Divorced Fathers and Pizza Crusts The connection between divorced fathers and pizza crusts is understandable. The divorced father does not cook confidently. He wants his kid to enjoy dinner. The entire weekend is supposed to be fun. Kids love pizza. For some reason involving soft warmth and malleability kids approve of melted cheese on pizza years before they will tolerate cheese in other situations. So the divorced father takes the kid and the kid's friend out for pizza. The kids eat much faster than the dad. Before the dad has finished his second slice, the kids are playing a video game or being Ace Ventura or blowing spitballs through straws, making this hail that can't quite be cleaned up. There are four slices left and the divorced father doesn't want them wasted, there has been enough waste already; he sits there in his windbreaker finishing the pizza. It's good except the crust is actually not so great? after the second slice the crust is basically a chore? so you leave it. You move on to the next loaded slice. Finally there you are amid rims of crust. All this is understandable. There's no dark conspiracy. Meanwhile the kids are having a pretty good time which is the whole point. So the entire evening makes clear sense. Now the divorced father gathers the sauce-stained napkins for the trash and dumps them and dumps the rims of crust which are not corpses on a battlefield. Understandability fills the pizza shop so thoroughly there's no room for anything else. Now he's at the door summoning the kids and they follow, of course they do, he's a dad. Mark Halliday *Jab* University of Chicago Press ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jan 24 13:03:48 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 13:03:48 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Prof of Po I "if people will leave me alone..." Message-ID: In a message dated 1/23/03 11:11:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes: > wants statistics to prove that MFA Programs are BAD. Henry, I too have used up my roll of quarters on this topic. But a few last thoughts: Of course stats aren't possible unless we could put a group of students through a placebo MFA program, where, unbeknownst to them, they were being taught not a thing about poetry writing. Then we could wait 5 years and collect their poetry and the poetry of a similar group that went thru the real McCoy MFA program, and submit these two bodies of work to "a panel of experts" for comparative, "qualitative" analysis. But seriously, the way Alpaugh or any other writer with an ax to grind on this subject could build a case (anecdotally) would be as follows. 1) Survey some MFA in Poetry graduates: Some that stayed in academia and taught, and some that left (by choice or circumstance, ie no job offers) and use their responses to gauge what the MFA has done (or not done) for them as poets. Try to show us that many who have graduated have become disaffected from the art as a whole or many find the whole po-biz scene detestable. Show us that harm is being done to these graduates, and by implication harm is being done to the art of poetry. 2) Instead of just invoking the effigy of "the lost common reader," interview some people. Find a doctor, a cook, a computer analyst, and novelist, all of whom will recount that once upon a time they read a handful of poetry books per year, but now they don't, because: it all reads the same; it's unrelated to their lives; it's impossible to understand; etc. Something that would give some credence to an argument that harm is being done to the readership of poetry. Imply by this that the readership has become ingrown and self-satisfied. 3) Point to some well-thought-of (recognizable) poets (name names) who hold the MFA degree and systematically explain, employing a good measure of critical acumen, why their work is so bland or bears the evidence of a cookie-cutter approach to writing poetry. Show us clearly why the products of the system (the poets and their poetry) are deficient. That is the kind of article I'd respect. Whether I agreed in the end with its conclusions or not, I'd respect the author for having written it. I'd respect the author for having made the effort to provide some underpinning for his opinions. Alpaugh, in the patois of the workshop, "hasn't earned" his conclusions. Finnegan From nigel_holt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 24 13:27:35 2003 From: nigel_holt at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Nigel=20Holt?=) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 18:27:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalization of Poetry Message-ID: <20030124182735.56551.qmail@web13906.mail.yahoo.com> I wonder how much of this 'professional' argument is based on an underlying and unstated assumption that the MFA is the spectre of non-metricality trying to choke out metricality from the system? Or that those who believe in amateur poetics aren't from the Libertarian side of this chasm? I've seen this argument elsewhere - that academe is the hotbed of Commie Pinko Subversive Free Verse Meisters, and the MFA is its creed. I don't subscribe to this, being British, left-wing and someone who writes both metre and FV - but I do wonder if there is some truth here. Nigel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Jan 24 13:25:04 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 12:25:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Norton Message-ID: I have to confess that the poem I posted the other day by Louise Bennett was utterly new to me until thirty minutes before I posted it on this list as an example of a good poem by a nonmale, non-European poet--to start the theoretical list of ten such poets. As I browsed through the new Norton Anthology of Modern and Contemporary Poetry,which had just been dropped on my desk, Bennett's unfamiliar name and the look of her poems drew me in. Since her poems are now represented in what's probably the country's leading anthology, Bennett is no longer noncanonical. Now that I've browsed a little further in the volume, I'm a bit disappointed in the new poetry selected. The new Norton, by the way, is now in two volumes, with the second devoted to "contemporary" poetry, beginning with Charles Olson. There are some new names, but so far little of the new poetry I've read strikes me as particularly exciting. Being a formalist, I'm a bit disappointed in the paucity of formal poems--with the notable exception of Bennett. The new editor in his intro even mentions the new movements of New Formalism and Language poetry. He includes several lang-po poets but only Marilyn Hacker, who, by the editor's own account, was "belatedly adopted into the group." I was left with the impression that New Formalism remains politically incorrect despite the fact that the editor notes that although "often assumed to be neoconservative in politics . . . This is not so." Still, he picks the sole representative of the movement, Hacker, no doubt because she "plays the 'nontraditional' content of her lesbian feminism within and against forms . . ." The editor names a few other younger formalists in his intro but includes none of their the poetry. With every other movement, he includes a pretty fair sampling. What do others who've seen the new anthology think of its changes and overall value--not just the points I've raised. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From Cadaly at aol.com Fri Jan 24 13:31:17 2003 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 13:31:17 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] HOW2 issue 8 is now online Message-ID: <12c.2139bd1d.2b62e075@aol.com> HOW2 issue 8 is now online at: http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/stadler_center/how2/current (Bookmark it now!) Including the following sections: * Southern Perils: Women Experimental Poets of the South * Textual Reflexions: New Writing co-ordinated by Redell Olsen * "Truth While Climbing the Stairs": Special feature on Rosmarie Waldrop * Reading/"Recovering" modernist poet, Lola Ridge * H.D. and Translation *"Memoire/Anti-Memoire": New York City Women Writers Recall September 11, 2001 * Rachel Blau DuPlessis's _Drafts 1-38, Toll_: A Roundtable * Work/book feature on Eileen Myles * Multimedia * and Alerts of recent publications Read and enjoy! All the best, Ann Vickery, editor via Linda Russo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jan 24 14:10:40 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:10:40 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] New Norton Message-ID: <176.15469250.2b62e9b0@aol.com> In a message dated 1/24/03 1:28:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > What do others who've seen the new anthology think of its changes and > overall value--not just the points I've raised. > Paul, What's the name of the editor who wrote that intro? Wasn't the last Norton edition edited by Mary Jo Salter...a dyed-in-wool formalist? Finnegan From luap at mallasch.com Fri Jan 24 14:05:03 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:05:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] is this the selfsame Marcus Bales? In-Reply-To: <3E30EDCE.28574.112772@localhost> Message-ID: Thanks. I like the original title better for some reason. Maybe it's just me. ;) In any case, I did enjoy the poem. -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Marcus Bales wrote: > K. Paul Mallasch wrote: > >... i smiled then & > > in that moment > > what poetry > > is or was > > or can > > fin- > > ally > > be > > was > > known > > (at least to me ;) > > A more recent version is here: > > http://www.poppyfields.net/filks/00311.html > > And if you liked that one, try this: > > http://www.poppyfields.net/filks/00310.html > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From luap at mallasch.com Fri Jan 24 14:09:38 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:09:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] stevens In-Reply-To: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249001BA19AA@sjcmail.sjc.edu> Message-ID: I was reminded of him by Shakespeare the other night (rereading Henry V and realizing how much irony is in the play...) KING HENRY: We are no tyrant, but a Christian king, Unto whose grace our passion is as subject As is our wretches fett'red in our prisons; Therefore with frank and with uncurbed plainness Tell us the Dauphin's mind. Act I scene ii -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Barone, Dennis wrote: > These lines from Wallace Stevens made me think of President Bush and the > present: > > > > He would not be aware of the lake. > > He would be the lunatic of one idea > > In a world of ideas, who would have all the people > > Live, work, suffer and die in that idea > > In a world of ideas. He would not be aware of the > > clouds, > > Lighting the martyrs of logic with white fire. > > His extreme of logic would be illogical. > > > > From part XIV of > > "Esthetique Du Mal" > > > > > > -- Dennis Barone > > From luap at mallasch.com Fri Jan 24 14:10:49 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:10:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Halliday & Blurbage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a good example of the type of reviews/ads I'd like to see on the list. -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, David Graham wrote: > One of my small bright pleasures is awaiting each new book by Mark Halliday, > whose back-cover copy is always an entertainment, and nearly worth the price > in itself. > > The flap copy on his most recent collection (*Jab*, U Chicago) begins with > this beguiling notice, whose author is not hard to guess: > > "Human, hunger, happiness, hope, heart, and Halliday all start with *h*, as > does ham. Accident? Maybe! But seldom have the flour of the humanistic > and the egg yolk of honesty mixed more swellingly with the yeast of desire > and the salt of self-doubt--not to mention the olive past of ambition. > Halliday has whacked Death and Mutabilitie before, but this time. . . > this time he whacks them again. After this *Jab*, the world will never be > the same. Or at least, a few hundred conversations, here and there, will be > somewhat affected. Roll over Death, and tell Mutabilitie the news." > > This time out, Halliday has also persuaded some colleagues (Jerry Williams, > Martha Rhodes, Cathleen Calbert) to contribute blurbs in a similar vein. > > And a certain Linda Bamber, unknown to me, whose identity I have my own > theory about, writes the following: > > "These poems are OK, I guess, if you like poems that CANNOT GET OVER how the > point of life or a good feeling about yourself just WILL NOT stick around > and then you're left eating your son's leftover pizza crust and dealing with > such spectacularly mundane interstitial moments of existence that you have > to invent new words like drammel and fedge to represent them at all." > > All in all, these notices are rather a good introduction to the inimitable > work of Halliday, one of my favorite serious comedians. > > > Here's a small sample from the new book-- > > Parkersburg > > I will arise now and put on a black baseball cap and go > to Parkersburg. It will fit me, > the cap will, and it will be black, > the sneakers on my feet will be purple, > and I will not have shaved for three days. > The day will be rainy and cool > and I will wear an old jacket of pale wool > that was once my Uncle Lew's. > And go to Parkersburg. > > On a bus I may go > or in an old car full of tapes-- > Elmore James. Fred McDowell. > The Kinks. Into the town of Parkersburg > on a day so rainy and cool. And I will be > terrifically untroubled if anyone thinks I am strange, > in fact everything about this day will be a ratification > of how I am not them; and my manner, though courteous, > will tend to make them suspect that they are boring. > They will wonder why they have no purple sneakers. Cool > > and lightly rainy in Parkersburg > and me all day there exactly as if my belief > had long been firm; not forgetting for one minute > how I felt listening to "I'm Different" by Randy Newman > years ago and the sacred tears in my eyes at that time. > I and my black baseball cap will enter a tavern > > and there we will read a French poet with such concentration > it will be like I am that guy. Then pretty soon > in another tavern it is a Spanish poet whom I read > with similar effect. Parkersburg! > Oh my Parkersburg ... And I swear, > though I might not meet a lonely marvelous slim woman > with black hair, it will still be as if I did. > ******************************* > > > > Divorced Fathers and Pizza Crusts > > > The connection between divorced fathers and pizza crusts > is understandable. The divorced father does not cook > confidently. He wants his kid to enjoy dinner. > The entire weekend is supposed to be fun. Kids love > pizza. For some reason involving soft warmth and malleability > > kids approve of melted cheese on pizza > years before they will tolerate cheese in other situations. > So the divorced father takes the kid and the kid's friend > out for pizza. The kids eat much faster than the dad. > Before the dad has finished his second slice, > > the kids are playing a video game or being Ace Ventura > or blowing spitballs through straws, making this hail > that can't quite be cleaned up. There are four slices left > and the divorced father doesn't want them wasted, > there has been enough waste already; he sits there > > in his windbreaker finishing the pizza. It's good > except the crust is actually not so great? > after the second slice the crust is basically a chore? > so you leave it. You move on to the next loaded slice. > Finally there you are amid rims of crust. > > All this is understandable. There's no dark conspiracy. > Meanwhile the kids are having a pretty good time > which is the whole point. So the entire evening makes > clear sense. Now the divorced father gathers > the sauce-stained napkins for the trash and dumps them > > and dumps the rims of crust which are not > corpses on a battlefield. Understandability > fills the pizza shop so thoroughly there's no room > for anything else. Now he's at the door summoning the kids > and they follow, of course they do, he's a dad. > > > Mark Halliday > *Jab* > University of Chicago Press > > > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jan 24 15:25:54 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:25:54 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] New Norton Message-ID: <68.2c15af41.2b62fb52@cs.com> In a message dated 1/24/2003 1:11:37 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > Paul, > What's the name of the editor who wrote that intro? Wasn't the last Norton > > edition edited by Mary Jo Salter...a dyed-in-wool formalist? > Finnegan Salter co-edited the Norton Anthology of Poetry, not the new edition of the Norton Anthology of Modern (and now Contemporary) Poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbyrne at risd.edu Fri Jan 24 15:37:31 2003 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:37:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Norton Message-ID: The New Norton Anthology of Modern and Contemporary Poetry is edited by Jahan Ramazani, Richard Ellmann, and Robert O'Clair. I've just been looking at the table of contents, it seems strongly American and British but I have to look more closely, and read the introduction for a rationale. Mairead Mairead Byrne, Ph.D. Department of English Rhode Island School of Design 2 College Street Providence, RI 02903 Office: (401)454.6268 Home: (401)273.5964 mbyrne at risd.edu >>> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 01/24/03 15:30 PM >>> In a message dated 1/24/2003 1:11:37 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > Paul, > What's the name of the editor who wrote that intro? Wasn't the last Norton > > edition edited by Mary Jo Salter...a dyed-in-wool formalist? > Finnegan Salter co-edited the Norton Anthology of Poetry, not the new edition of the Norton Anthology of Modern (and now Contemporary) Poetry. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Jan 24 15:34:08 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:34:08 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Norton In-Reply-To: <176.15469250.2b62e9b0@aol.com> Message-ID: on 1/24/03 1:10 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/24/03 1:28:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, > paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > >> What do others who've seen the new anthology think of its changes and >> overall value--not just the points I've raised. >> > Paul, > What's the name of the editor who wrote that intro? Wasn't the last Norton > edition edited by Mary Jo Salter...a dyed-in-wool formalist? > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > No, this is the Norton Anthology of Modern and Contemporary Poetry, edited by Ellmann. The new editor's name is Jahan Ramazani, who's brought a postcolonial perspective to the table (hence the includions of Jamaican Bennett, among others). Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Jan 24 15:41:52 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 14:41:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Norton Message-ID: Just checked the back blurbs. Here's an explanatory line to the new edition: "Thirty-seven new poets give full voice to ethnic American and postcolonial poetries and to postmodern and experimental traditions." Which explains, I suppose, the inclusion of lang-po and the exclusion of New Formalism. Another blurb states that fully half of the poetry is new. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Jan 24 16:36:20 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:36:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New Norton In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Scanning the online table of contents for Volume 2 (contemporary) of the new Norton anthology of modern & contemporary poetry, my first impression is that it highly resembles all the old Nortons. Very few surprises, really. Whatever bias there may be among the most recent poets, the elder generation of formalists certainly seems comfortably represented: Swenson, Hecht, Meredith, Berryman, Van Duyn, Clampitt, Larkin, Wilbur, Davie, Nemerov, Judith Wright, Kumin, Justice, Snodgrass, Merrill, Gunn, Hollander, Walcott, Harrison, Murray, Heaney, et al. Nice to see Brathwaite and other non-Walcott West Indians & Africans given some pages here. But as with other Nortons, and for understandable reasons, it seems that most of the effort at multicultural diversity occurs crammed in the final pages. For all the admirable intent, then, it does give students a fairly skewed portrait of the here-and-now. The absence of Dana Gioia or Molly Peacock is only part of that. I've grown allergic to these monster anthologies, anyway, and won't be teaching from this volume in any case. . . . I suppose I may order a copy for my shelf, anyhow, but maybe not: I don't see many poets who are new to me. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jan 24 16:39:16 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:39:16 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] New Norton Message-ID: <103.2513c13e.2b630c84@cs.com> The modern looks pretty good--lots of stuff I've wanted like the usura canto, Wylie, new additions to most of the poets. I didn't do a side by side comparison with the older one though. The contemporary, on the other hand, looks questionable all over the place. Plenty of Norton authors, to be sure. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jan 24 16:54:54 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2003 16:54:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Norton References: Message-ID: <00b901c2c3f3$3afe2a80$f154fea9@j1c1k6> > "Thirty-seven new poets give full voice to ethnic American and postcolonial > poetries and to postmodern and experimental traditions." > > Which explains, I suppose, the inclusion of lang-po and the exclusion of New > Formalism. Just out of curiosity, what language poets have work in it? Do any other "experimental poets?" > Another blurb states that fully half of the poetry is new. > > Paul Lake From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Sat Jan 25 18:12:29 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 17:12:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Norton In-Reply-To: <00b901c2c3f3$3afe2a80$f154fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: on 1/24/03 3:54 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: >> "Thirty-seven new poets give full voice to ethnic American and > postcolonial >> poetries and to postmodern and experimental traditions." >> >> Which explains, I suppose, the inclusion of lang-po and the exclusion of > New >> Formalism. > > Just out of curiosity, what language poets have work in it? Do any other > "experimental poets?" > >> Another blurb states that fully half of the poetry is new. >> >> Paul Lake > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > A quick look gives me the following language poets, but there may be more. I'll have to read the new stuff to be sure. Here they are Susan Howe, Lyn Hejinian, Michael Palmer (a sort of language poet), Charles Bernstein--and an essay on poetics by same. Jorie Graham, to, who's incorporated lang-po writing into her work. Paul --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jan 25 19:03:30 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 19:03:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Norton References: Message-ID: <001101c2c4ce$64614ac0$0be6fea9@j1c1k6> Thanks, Paul. Yeah, Michael Palmer is always considered a language poet for some reason. It does look like the Norton people are slowly doing at least a little for unconventional poetry. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New Norton > on 1/24/03 3:54 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: > > >> "Thirty-seven new poets give full voice to ethnic American and > > postcolonial > >> poetries and to postmodern and experimental traditions." > >> > >> Which explains, I suppose, the inclusion of lang-po and the exclusion of > > New > >> Formalism. > > > > Just out of curiosity, what language poets have work in it? Do any other > > "experimental poets?" > > > >> Another blurb states that fully half of the poetry is new. > >> > >> Paul Lake > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > --- > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > > > A quick look gives me the following language poets, but there may be more. > I'll have to read the new stuff to be sure. Here they are > > Susan Howe, Lyn Hejinian, Michael Palmer (a sort of language poet), Charles > Bernstein--and an essay on poetics by same. Jorie Graham, to, who's > incorporated lang-po writing into her work. > > Paul From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Jan 25 19:46:36 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 00:46:36 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Prof of Po I "if people will leave me alone..." Message-ID: <20030126003514.9EA181007D@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > ... the way Alpaugh or any other writer > with an ax to grind on this subject could build a case > (anecdotally) would be as follows. > 1) Survey some MFA in Poetry graduates ... > 2) ... Interview some people. ... > 3) Point to some well-thought-of (recognizable) poets (name names) > who hold the MFA degree and systematically explain, employing a > good measure of critical acumen ... > That is the kind of article I'd respect. Whether I agreed in the end > with its conclusions or not ... Excellent -- now we have a look at what the standards for such an article would look like; it's necessary, though to more accurately define "a good measure of critical acumen" in order toget a look at what those standards actually _are_. From ccooley at overdomain.com Sun Jan 26 11:15:02 2003 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 08:15:02 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Critique of the Artistic Discourse In-Reply-To: <20030124031902.45E33100D4@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: In the MFA debate and other debates I've witnessed on new-po in the past 8 months, I see many instances where a Person who proposes an Idea gets a critical rejection imputed not to the Idea but to themselves. I interpret this as a failure of the critic's response to distinguish between the Idea and the Person who proposes it. A critic may consider this to be a civil liberty and I won't dispute that, but I propose that its function in artistic discourse is to reduce freedom of thought, not to increase it. When someone who expresses an Idea is verbally bruised and plaistered for it, the treatment will have a chilling effect on others on the list who may read the interaction as a warning to themselves. Fear will make all the vulnerable, edgy, interesting Ideas retreat to a far corner of the brain. The Person who receives the beating may respond with anger and reprisal, and this cannot facilitate art, as Virginia Woolf says, "it is clear that anger was tampering with the integrity of Charlotte Bronte the novelist." [ROOO, p73] But as CAConrad says (quoted below) "it's just words...", i.e., it isn't a physical beating. (Did I interpret your Idea correctly, CA?) Let's call this the "sticks-and-stones" theory of language. I counter the sticks-and-stones theory with this Idea from from Blake: "Poetry Fetter'd Fetters the Human Race". Or this Idea from CSS Peirce "The Thought is the Man." Or this Idea from John "In the beginning was the Word." We are Mortal and have only a few avenues to Immortality: 1. children, 2. heaven, 3. Great Works of Literature. In the realm of the Flesh, maybe the sticks-and-stones theory holds. In the realm of Spirit, Words can hurt us, and in fact they have the power to Destroy us and to Create us. ("I shall destroy the temple and in three days build it up again.") If the Platonic-then-Christian Flesh/Spirit dichotomy is replaced by the Idea that we really are all One (which would indicate our immortality as pattern integrity, whether written in words or in star matter or in leaves of grass), then the sticks-and-stones theory has nowhere to stand. So how to foster artistic discourse without muting esthetic judgement and philosophical argument? This is not so easy. For if the thought is the wo/man, then a criticism of the thought-expressed (the Idea) must be a criticism of the Person. A useful distinction may be made, however, between the Person as the source of all as yet Unexpressed Ideas (call them Thoughts) and the Idea which the Person has chosen to publish (whether on this list or otherwise). The Thoughts are like the gold ore in the ground; the Idea is like the gold that has been mined, melted, minted and put into circulation as currency. Once the Idea (coinage) is put into circulation, it becomes a part of the public body; (I think) both sender and receiver should distinguish between it and its source, and to see it as something outside of themselves, meaning, something to which they are not attached. I have lots of other (unsought) advice, like: You probably shouldn't say anything to anyone on this list that you wouldn't also say to them if they were sitting at your table with you, sipping a cup of tea. > From: CAConrad9 at aol.com > afterall, it's just words. > CAConrad From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sun Jan 26 14:04:28 2003 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 11:04:28 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Discourse, Politesse, & Chrisman's tea-ceremony In-Reply-To: <20030126170102.3E128100ED@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030126103256.00a1ed10@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:01 PM 1/26/03 -0500, Chris Cooley wrote of: >a chilling effect on others Some take glee in coming-on-tough, but flexing their bully does send other shrinking away from what might have been a conversation that *moves,* the best kind. I agree with Chris absolutely that a great corrective would be to imagine the jerk with the me-me-me's and dumb rigidities on the other side of a little table at the tea-ceremony. One trick I cultivate at workshops is the avoidance of the word "you." Many students need training in distinguishing between the work and the person sitting there with them, "pinned and wriggling." So we say, "it," we say "the poem, the stanza, the word, the trope," not "Margery, you've messed up the meter there," but "the meter's messed up there." Even "Great meter, Margery!" feels patronizing, much less self-aggrandizing advice toward improvement in a highly personalized vocabulary, much less contention, rejection, bully-bleat. Many more would participate with a tad more decorum laid on. As it is, the rough-and-tumblers tend to steal the day and find themselves hanging out in a depopulated schoolyard. Just to save time, let me say that I don't want anyone to tell me to toughen up and deal with it, to join in the mini-flaming-fun. I don't reply to that sort of stuff. Okay now, there's the bell -- in the white trunks, at 183 pounds.... A Prayer for my Daughter W.B. Yeats Once more the storm is howling, and half hid Under this cradle-hood and coverlid My child sleeps on. There is no obstacle But Gregory's wood and one bare hill Whereby the haystack-and roof-levelling wind, Bred on the Atlantic, can be stayed; And for an hour I have walked and prayed Because of the great gloom that is in my mind. I have walked and prayed for this young child an hour And heard the sea-wind scream upon the tower, And under the arches of the bridge, and scream In the elms above the flooded stream; Imagining in excited reverie That the future years had come, Dancing to a frenzied drum, Out of the murderous innocence of the sea. May she be granted beauty and yet not Beauty to make a stranger's eye distraught, Or hers before a looking-glass, for such, Being made beautiful overmuch, Consider beauty a sufficient end, Lose natural kindness and maybe The heart-revealing intimacy That chooses right, and never find a friend. Helen being chosen found life flat and dull And later had much trouble from a fool, While that great Queen, that rose out of the spray, Being fatherless could have her way Yet chose a bandy-legged smith for man. It's certain that fine women eat A crazy salad with their meat Whereby the Horn of Plenty is undone. In courtesy I'd have her chiefly learned; Hearts are not had as a gift but hearts are earned By those that are not entirely beautiful; Yet many, that have played the fool For beauty's very self, has charm made wise, And many a poor man that has roved, Loved and thought himself beloved, From a glad kindness cannot take his eyes. May she become a flourishing hidden tree That all her thoughts may like the linnet be, And have no business but dispensing round Their magnanimities of sound, Nor but in merriment begin a chase, Nor but in merriment a quarrel. O may she live like some green laurel Rooted in one dear perpetual place. My mind, because the minds that I have loved, The sort of beauty that I have approved, Prosper but little, has dried up of late, Yet knows that to be choked with hate May well be of all evil chances chief. If there's no hatred in a mind Assault and battery of the wind Can never tear the linnet from the leaf. An intellectual hatred is the worst, So let her think opinions are accursed. Have I not seen the loveliest woman born Out of the mouth of Plenty's horn, Because of her opinionated mind Barter that horn and every good By quiet natures understood For an old bellows full of angry wind? Considering that, all hatred driven hence, The soul recovers radical innocence And learns at last that it is self-delighting, Self-appeasing, self-affrighting, And that its own sweet will is Heaven's will; She can, though every face should scowl And every windy quarter howl Or every bellows burst, be happy still. And may her bridegroom bring her to a house Where all's accustomed, ceremonious; For arrogance and hatred are the wares Peddled in the thoroughfares. How but in custom and in ceremony Are innocence and beauty born? Ceremony's a name for the rich horn, And custom for the spreading laurel tree. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trbell at comcast.net Sun Jan 26 18:01:39 2003 From: trbell at comcast.net (tombell) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 17:01:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Poets Against the War Message-ID: <04b101c2c58e$e3c71c20$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Bernstein" To: Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 1:16 PM Subject: Fwd: Poets Against the War > Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 > From: Sam Hamill > > January 19, 2003 > > Dear Friends and Fellow Poets: > > When I picked up my mail and saw the letter marked "The White House," I > felt no joy. Rather I was overcome by a kind nausea as I read the card > enclosed: > > Laura Bush > requests the pleasure of your company > at a reception and > White House Symposium on > "Poetry and the American Voice" > on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 > at one o'clock > > Only the day before I had read a lengthy report on the President's proposed > "Shock and Awe" attack on Iraq, calling for saturation bombing that would > be like the firebombing of Dresden or Tokyo, killing countless innocent > civilians. > > I believe the only legitimate response to such a morally bankrupt and > unconscionable idea is to reconstitute a Poets Against the War movement > like the one organized to speak out against the war in Vietnam. > > I am asking every poet to speak up for the conscience of our country and > lend his or her name to our petition against this war, and to make February > 12 a day of Poetry Against the War. We will compile an anthology of protest > to be presented to the White House on that afternoon. > > Please submit your name and a poem or statement of conscience to: > kokua at olympus.net > > There is little time to organize and compile. I urge you to pass along this > letter to any poets you know. Please join me in making February 12 a day > when the White House can truly hear the voices of American poets. > > Sam Hamill From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Jan 26 17:24:23 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:24:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: : Poets Against the War References: <04b101c2c58e$e3c71c20$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3E346017.B252FFB2@earthlink.net> Mr. President: I urge you to find a peaceful solution to the situation in Iraq, and to encourage such wherever use of force is being contemplated. Being a leader in peace is more honorable than being a leader in war. - James Cervantes, poet & editor ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Jan 26 17:26:42 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 15:26:42 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: : Poets Against the War References: <04b101c2c58e$e3c71c20$f2113444@rthfrd01.tn.comcast.net> <3E346017.B252FFB2@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3E3460A2.77568FAF@earthlink.net> Slippery digits. Another did get to the right address. James Cervantes wrote: > > Mr. President: I urge you to find a peaceful solution to the situation > in Iraq, and to encourage such wherever use of force is being > contemplated. Being a leader in peace is more honorable than being a > leader in war. > > - James Cervantes, poet & editor > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon Jan 27 05:47:48 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 05:47:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog today Message-ID: <001401c2c5f1$8ce233a0$500ff243@Dell> The value of the local: "hero workers" of contemporary poetry A poetry of surfaces: John Ashbery's "A Sweet Place" The Tennis Court Oath: John Ashbery & the Wesleyan Poets of the 1960s Allen Bramhall, Barrett Watten & Bob Grumman on Robert Grenier's "Sentences" Richard Deming's new modernism Do bloggers "control" poetry? Is langpo a "cult"? 38 blogs on poetry & poetics Stephen Ratcliffe's SOUND (system): the complexity of a line Funny formalism: The soft porn poetry of Sophie Hannah & the "new gen" invasion Tom Raworth's Collected Poems: Collected versus complete Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar Updated for the new year http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ 10,000 visitors in 2002 Salt Publishing has just published a new edition of my poem Tjanting with a new forward by Barrett Watten. Available in the U.S., U.K. & Australia. http://saltpublishing.com/1876857196.html Two poems from The Age of Huts have been reissued by Ubu press as e-books: Sunset Debris & 2197 http://www.ubu.com/ubu/ I will be reading in the Temple Writers Series, Temple Gallery, 45 North 2nd Street, Philadelphia, Thursday, February 27th. The reading is at 8:00 PM and is free to the public. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 27 06:29:10 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 06:29:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog today References: <001401c2c5f1$8ce233a0$500ff243@Dell> Message-ID: <001e01c2c5f7$50114be0$6ad5fea9@j1c1k6> Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog today > The value of the local: > "hero workers" of contemporary poetry > > A poetry of surfaces: > John Ashbery's "A Sweet Place" > > The Tennis Court Oath: > John Ashbery & the Wesleyan Poets > of the 1960s > > Allen Bramhall, Barrett Watten & > Bob Grumman on > Robert Grenier's "Sentences" Hey, I'm finally really in the BigTime! Me on Robert Grenier's "Sentences" is from a post I made at the Buffalo poetics list on what Ron said about it recently at his site. I must say that Ron replied to me about as handsomely as one can, clarifying his opinions on the originality of Grenier into pretty close agreement with what I would say about it. An especially good point he makes is that a signal value of "Sentences" is its number of poems. Too often in all cultural endeavors, the person who first does X, which turns out to be effective, gets all the credit, while the first to wide-rangingly apply it gets little or none. Or, more commonly, someone who does the latter and wins acclaim for his efforts, is later de-valued for not being the very first to do it. Ron and I still have disagreements. In my view, he under-values Cummings, for instance. Meanwhile, I have another name to add to possible predecessors of "Sentences"--Robert Lax. I'm not sure of the dating, though. One suggestion of Ron's I much like: that someone do a doctoral dissertation on what made Aram Saroyan drop out of poetry soon after doing work in it that many of us consider quite important, to all intents and purposes, while Grenier kept at it. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jan 27 12:10:34 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:10:34 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Prof of Po I "if people will leave me alone..." Message-ID: <99.322f8ef2.2b66c20a@aol.com> In a message dated 1/25/03 7:47:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > > Excellent -- now we have a look at what the standards for such an article > would > look like; it's necessary, though to more accurately define "a good measure > of > critical acumen" in order toget a look at what those standards actually _are_ Marcus, I think this has to be left somewhat open-ended. It's one of those I'll-know-it-when-I-see-it" kind of determinations. Certainly it won't be good enough just to suggest or to assert that, "This MFA-generarted poetry is inferior," without getting one's hands dirty. She/he needs to dig into at least a few poems (preferably anthologized ones) by a few well-known poets holding the MFA degree and who also are teaching poetry writing. To look at the poems from various aspects: sound, imagery, diction, nuance, complexity of thought, quality of feeling, recurring themes/subjects (among hundreds of possible points of entry). He/she must tell us clearly why the work is found wanting: Is pallid, tinny, jejune, derivative, whatever, by quoting passages from the poems and holding these up to the strong light of his/her critical reasoning. Obviously the critic's own biases and analytical tactics are going to be exposed in the proces, and that's fine. Again, I don't have to agree with either the approach to the poems or his/her critical assessment of them. I can reject one or the other or both, and I would still give credit to the critic for his/her willingness to engage the poets and their poetry, for having made his/her case against the product of MFA education and its professionalizing system. What I see in Alpaugh's article, and he is not alone in this failing, is someone content with firing off a few loud but wildly inaccurate "broadsides" in the general direction of the MFA movement. Again, I may be speaking to soon: There is a "Part II" coming, and in it we may find a real critic and not just complainer. Finnegan From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Jan 27 12:25:06 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:25:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] is this the selfsame Marcus Bales? Message-ID: <20030127172506.CA32D4980@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Henry_Gould at Brown.edu Mon Jan 27 13:08:26 2003 From: Henry_Gould at Brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:08:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] teaching poetry Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030127125008.00aad3f0@postoffice.brown.edu> I think the basic problem with the teaching or professionalization of poetry stems from the nature of lyric poetry. As I see it anyway, lyric proceeds from a passive receptive state, or mood, which paradoxically triggers a spontaneous verbal response. Such things can be extended & formalized by technical means, like refrains, but essentially lyric poetry is unpredictable & unmanageable (unless you assent to the notion that all poetry is essentially rhetoric, that lyric emotion/expression is simply manufactured). The unpredictability of the lyric dream-state is the paradox that confronts any didactic approach, no matter how sophisticated. Does this mean, do away with teaching creative writing? No. It simply means that there is a paradox or contradiction lurking where teaching meets the unteachable. Again, it's at the border separating "academic" from "actual". (On the nature of lyric, see Eric Staiger's work, "Basic Concepts of Poetics". He aligns himself with Mandelstam's notion, that future literary studies would focus on the impulse of the text.) Henry From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Mon Jan 27 13:16:56 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:16:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mainstream Poetry - how to join In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030127125008.00aad3f0@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030127125008.00aad3f0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <1043691416.3e357798bbfcb@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Hello everybody, I recently declared myself a Mainstream Poet and defended this self-identification with a poem, "Mainstream Poetry," which can be found on K. Silem Mohammad's blog at http://limetree.blogspot.com/ Also included there is some illuminating commentary from Mohammad, who has also declared himself Mainstream, as well as the address for Nada Gordon's blog, where the poem also appears (she has not, to my knowledge, publicly declared herself Mainstream, but a good argument could be made that she is.) You're invited to Kasey's blog and, if moved, should declare yourself a Mainstream Poet. -m. From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Jan 27 13:44:54 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:44:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] teaching poetry In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030127125008.00aad3f0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3E3537D6.31350.167A6AE@localhost> Henry Gould wrote: > ... essentially lyric poetry > is unpredictable & unmanageable (unless you assent to the notion that all > poetry is essentially rhetoric, that lyric emotion/expression is simply > manufactured).<< Okay, I'll take the other end of this, and assert that poetry is rhetoric and that emotion is manufactured by experession. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Jan 27 14:28:08 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:28:08 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: teaching poetry Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E8704D@mail.ripon.edu> Henry Gould: The unpredictability of the lyric dream-state is the paradox that confronts any didactic approach, no matter how sophisticated. Does this mean, do away with teaching creative writing? No. It simply means that there is a paradox or contradiction lurking where teaching meets the unteachable. _______ From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Jan 27 14:54:51 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:54:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinter poem review Message-ID: Harold Pinter's "God Bless America" The latest piece of Brit anti-war poetry hits the streets with an incoherence that must be seen to be believed. Sample line: "Your eyes have gone out and your nose" . by J. Bottum 01/27/2003 12:00:00 AM THERE'S SOMETHING IRRESISTIBLE about the anti-war poetry that's been pouring out of England. Came a Motion. Went a Motion. Came a Paulin. He went, too. Now Harold Pinter finds a printer: Something extra, just for you. What's irresistible, of course, is the impulse to parody. The mockings of Andrew Motion's "Causa Belli," for instance, are all over the blogosphere (many of the best of them collected on Tim Blair's fine site). Now the web's parodic imagination has begun to savage Pinter's entry. (My favorite, so far, is from Loretta Serrano, a recasting of the poem to bounce along with the music for the Monkees' theme song.) The septuagenarian Pinter deserves whatever obloquy gets poured over his head. I run hot and cold on his plays. On a cold day, I think he hasn't even been interestingly wrong since "The Homecoming" in 1965. More to the point, his forays into politics and social criticism have always been weak. This is the man, after all, who described the attacks of September 11 as merely a "dramatic act of retaliation" against America's "stranglehold" on the world. And his poetry (at least as instanced in the 1978 volume "Poems and Prose") was never much good. This new poem, however, never even rises to level of silly. In trimeter, mostly dactylic, the unrhymed verse begins: Here they go again, The Yanks in their armoured parade Chanting their ballads of joy As they gallop across the big world Praising America's God. What are we supposed to do with this? It's hard to catch the rhythm on an initial reading: The first line's trochees don't sufficiently set up the second and third line's dactyls, and the fourth line's meter breaks down badly (with what seems, on first encounter, an opening anapest). Only with the fifth line does one finally get the Seussian rhythm--"PRAIS-ing-a / MER-i-ca's / GOD"; DUMB-da-da / DUMB-da-da / DUMB--strongly enough to go back and read the stanza. Then, of course, there's the meaning. Forget whether armored parades can really chant while galloping and praising, and think for a moment about the fact that Pinter intends the singing of ballads of joy and the praising of God to be infallible signs of American murderousness. England has come a long ways since, with "trumpets sterne," Spenser began "The Faerie Queen" with the promise to sing of "knights . . . and . . . fierce warres." A long way, for that matter, since Wordsworth's "Who is the happy Warrior? Who is he / That every man in arms should wish to be?" Back in 1969, Philip Larkin--mocking anti-war protests at the London School of Economics and the University of Essex (where Albert Sloman was vice-chancellor)--asked: "When the Russian tanks roll westward, what defence for you and me? / Colonel Sloman's Essex Rifles? The Light Horse of L.S.E.?" The answer to Larkin's question, unfortunately, was the Yanks' armored parade, the effect of which Pinter describes in his second stanza: The gutters are clogged with the dead The ones who couldn't join in The others refusing to sing The ones who are losing their voice The ones who've forgotten the tune. The light touch one wants for parsing bad poetry simply eludes me while reading this stuff. Would it help to point out to Pinter that the classical model suggests spondees are the best foot to substitute for dactyls? No, this is simply too vile. Maybe there are meaningful arguments against war with Iraq. But Manhattan on September 11 was the place where the gutters were literally clogged with the ashes of the dead. The Kurds and the Marsh Arabs are the ones who lost their voices under Saddam Hussein, and the destroyed Christian and Jewish communities are what have been eliminated because they wouldn't join in. Pinter's view of the world can exist, even in its own narrow logic, only by never mentioning the facts. It is Harold Pinter who has forgotten the tune. He concludes: The riders have whips which cut. Your head rolls onto the sand Your head is a pool in the dirt Your head is a stain in the dust Your eyes have gone out and your nose Sniffs only the pong of the dead And all the dead air is alive With the smell of America's God. I can't say "Your eyes have gone out and your nose" is much of a line of poetry. (A note to Andrew Sullivan: How about starting a new prize category? Call it the "Pinter Prize for Bad Political Verse" or the "Your Eyes Have Gone Out And Your Nose" Award.) The two previous five-line stanzas didn't lead us to expect a concluding eight-liner. And isn't this supposed to be where the poem reaches past sarcasm to achieve high moral seriousness? "Pong" is a massive failure of diction. But the point is: America stands for death. That's expressed in such an anti-religious way, one gathers Pinter thinks God Himself stinks of death, which, in truth, the elderly playwright probably does--the old Swinburnian double bind in which Christians are denounced as childish at the same time that Christianity is blamed for killing off the childish joy of the ancient pre-Christian world: "Thou hast conquered, O pale Galilean; the world has grown grey from thy breath; / We have drunken of things Lethean, and fed on the fullness of death." (Still, at least Swinburne, unlike Pinter, actually understands how a three-beat metrical foot works.) But America is Pinter's burden here: America the violent, which stands so much for murder that its very God is death. Absent from all of this, of course, is any hint of argument. Great political poetry is not impossible; try Andrew Marvell's Horatian Ode upon Cromwell's Return from Ireland, for example, which ends in subtle warning: "The same arts that did gain / A pow'r, must it maintain." But such poetry has to argue something, and the old European culture seems now incapable of serious argument. "A civilization in decline digs its own grave with a relentless consistency," the theologian Bernard Lonergan once wrote. "It cannot be argued out of its self-destructive ways, for argument has a theoretical major premise, theoretical premises are asked to conform to matters of fact, and the facts in the situation produced by decline more and more are the absurdities that proceed from inattention, oversight, unreasonableness, and irresponsibility." That's the real lesson in Pinter's poem--and Andrew Motion's, for that matter: the irresponsibility of it all, the posturing that takes the place of thought, the faded images that substitute for argument. The wrongness of America's descent upon Iraq is entirely a failure of American motives to be good enough to withstand these Europeans' scrutiny--primarily because (in a marvelous example of circular reasoning) America is by definition so corrupt that it cannot have a good motive for anything. Are America's motives really that bad? You can see in them some self-servingness (beginning with the reasonable self-servingness of wanting the events of September 11 never to be repeated), and you can also see in them considerable idealism about the rights of freedom around the world. I tried once myself to write a poem that admitted we had sinned and, no doubt, would sin again--but are not thereby relieved of our duties. In a 1932 exchange in Christian Century, prompted by the question of whether the United States should intervene against the Japanese in Manchuria, the well-known Christian ethicist H. Richard Niebuhr wrote of what he called "the grace of doing nothing"--to which his brother, the even-better-known Reinhold Niebuhr, replied that the desire to wait for perfect motives translates into the inability ever to act. Because human beings are what they are, our motives will never reach perfection. We must attempt to do what ought to be done, despite the tangle of our natures, and act most times in imperfection. Though Harold Pinter thinks that means "all the dead air is alive" only with "the pong of the dead," the air would be even deader--the pong of the dead even stronger--in his self-righteous world of mortal inaction. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From luap at mallasch.com Mon Jan 27 15:15:57 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:15:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] January poem - i, rack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: i, rack -------------------- war drums beat incessently in the background w/cable tv news running 24/7, talking heads asking mostly when instead of why. "i rack up the points high in the sky" he says, on R&R at the brothel which the US looks the other way on. it's not slavery when you have to keep morale up, they say. it'll pass, they say. nintendo generation with a joystick in the cockpit. little blips easier to destroy than human faces - children and mothers maybe different but not necessarily more ugly than ourselves. unless you watch the tube. (ironic they call it the vacuum tube? or do they?) maybe i just made it up, like numbers in a market - up and down, buy and sell... "all's good and well if we can have a little more of your paycheck each week it would be groovy and would help with the smart bombs we need," they say. smart bombs with uneducated children roaming the streets, bored in class, seeing thru the vaporous cloud of americana and possessions, or perhaps being swept up in it, with eminem as their hero and thinking the world owes them something. smart bombs with uneducated children - homeless, roaming, cold, hungry, exhausted. smart bombs, though, smart bombs. we gotta get that guy! we gotta get that guy!! yeah, let's get that guy (before he uses the weapons we sold him...) flag waves on tv screen. innocent in shoneys loses his job because some lady from down south thought they 'looked a little weird' and 'maybe they were planning something...' (are you now or have you ever been?) flag waves on tv screen as citizens get locked up in brigs for their own safety. small numbers now so no one notices. ("he deserves not to have a lawyer or representation, the swine," they say, not realizing one day they may be in the same place.) flag waves on tv screen and you better show yours or the lady from shoneys may think you're not american enough. and they'll close down a highway for you. and they'll lock you up and inTERRORgate you for 16+ hours (14 if you're white...) -kpaul 'make poetry, not war...' http://www.mallasch.com/mug/ From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Jan 27 17:04:32 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:04:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] January poem - i, rack Message-ID: <20030127220432.AAB833BEA@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From mandolin at mac.com Mon Jan 27 17:29:17 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 17:29:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinter poem review In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Where did this review appear? I'd love to be able to link to it. On Monday, January 27, 2003, at 02:54 PM, Paul Lake wrote: > Harold Pinter's "God Bless America" > The latest piece of Brit anti-war poetry hits the streets with an > incoherence that must be seen to be believed. Sample line: "Your eyes > have > gone out and your nose" . > by J. Bottum > 01/27/2003 12:00:00 AM From mandolin at mac.com Mon Jan 27 18:28:44 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:28:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: teaching poetry In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E8704D@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <13B53BB7-324F-11D7-89F6-000393C29586@mac.com> On Monday, January 27, 2003, at 02:28 PM, Graham, David wrote: > I'm heartily bored by the poetry-can't-be-taught argument that never > seems > to be as readily applied to dance, music, and other arts). Well, yes, of course. But what is taught in music, dance, painting, etc, is technique, along with theory in music. ( I know there's theory in the others as well, but it's nowhere near as central.) And that is my principal (perhaps my only) complaint against non-metrical verse: what does one teach a novice writer of non-metrical verse? When addressing a bad sonnet, for instance, it's easy to use relatively objective and technical criteria, at least up to the point of basic competence in the form: if there are syntactic distortions, are they purposeful and effective or are they forced by the meter and rhyme? Are lines padded to fill out the meter, or confusingly elided to fit it? Do the changing rhymes reflect the structure of the sonnet? Is there a turn? Can the writer introduce variations in the feet without destroying the meter? -- and so on. This kind of competence is very teachable. It won't, by itself, make a beginning writer a good poet, but it provides a way past the endless arguments in Creative Writing classes about feeling and politics and art, allows the teacher to be encouraging about very specific skills, and can give the student a genuine sense of accomplishment. Just as it happens in dance classes or music composition classes. What is the equivalent for non-metrical verse? Does one simply point at exemplary texts? Just what is basic competence in a non-metrical form? Those are NOT rhetorical questions--I'd like to know. Basic competence, of course, is not poetry. But surely it's required before one reaches the point where, as Henry Gould put it, teaching meets the unteachable. Best (but ducking) Michael From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Mon Jan 27 18:36:30 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 03 18:36:30 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] review of Pinter poem Message-ID: <200301272341.h0RNfvc8072554@northrelay02.pok.ibm.com> Pinter's poem certainly, and his argument probably, are sufficiently awful in themselves, that I can't help thinking the reviewer need not have quoted "Your eyes have gone out and your nose" without the following line, with which it enjambs, mitigating somewhat its awfulness. Similarly, mentioning twice Pinter's age, and once disgustingly offering that Pinter must stink of death - clearly because of his age, rather than his beliefs - degrades the reviewer more than Pinter. Richard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jan 27 19:10:16 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:10:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: teaching poetry References: <13B53BB7-324F-11D7-89F6-000393C29586@mac.com> Message-ID: <000f01c2c661$a33852e0$0fc0fea9@j1c1k6> > What is the equivalent for non-metrical verse? Does one simply point at > exemplary texts? Just what is basic competence in a non-metrical form? Off the top of my head, I'd say it's the same as basic competence in prose. Plus knowledge of the nature and use of metaphor, and related devices. How to lineate effectively would be central. I should think almost as much about rhythm should be taught by a free-verse teacher as by a metrical verse teacher, since rhythm freed of meter is still of great importance in conveying emotion. Ditto everything concerning assonance, alliteration and consonance. Of course, there is much more to be taught of this nature about the non-metrical poetry I call busrtnorm poetry--many visual poetry techniques, for instance; the varieties of infraverbal devices (the means of going after poetry inside individual words). --Bob G. From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu Mon Jan 27 20:10:16 2003 From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:10:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Teaching the Non-Metrical Message-ID: 28 January Tuesday What is taught about non-metrical poetry? This varies, according to the community whose aesthetics determine what "poetry" is at any given time or venue, but these days, the following criteria still appear to hold sway: [1] Compression of the whole, so that the poem is complete in its treatment of subject. [2] Freshness of imagery that abhors the vacuum of clich?s. [3] Authenticity of the speaking subject, whether in confessional or in persona poetry. [4] Enjambment and/or awareness of the page as a dynamic space upon which the poem acts and with which it interacts. [5] Celebration of the idiosyncratic "voice" of the poet, through choice of stance, diction, and arrangement of material. Michael Karl --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Jan 28 09:19:27 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 09:19:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Hayden Carruth, "Saturday at the Border" Message-ID: Saturday at the Border Here I am writing my first villanelle At seventy-one, and feeling old and tired-- "Hey, pops, why dontcha just give us the old death-knell?"-- And writing it what's more on the rim of hell In blazing Arizona when all I desired Was north and solitude and not a villanelle, Working from memory and not remembering well How many stanzas and in what order, wired On Mexican coffee, seeing the death-knell Of sun's salvos upon these hills that yell Bloody murder silently to the much admired Dead-blue sky. One wonders if a villanelle Can do the job. Yes, old men must tell Our young world how these bigots and these retired Bankers of Arizona are ringing the death-knell For all of us, how ideologies compel Children to violence. Artifice acquired For its own sake is war. Frail Villanelle, Have you this power? And must I go and sell Myself? "Wow," they say, and "cool"--this hired Old poetry guy with his spaced out death-knell. Ah, far from home and God knows not much fired By thoughts of when he thought he was inspired, He writes by writing what he must. Death-knell Is what he's found in his first villanelle. --Hayden Carruth Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From nigel_holt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 28 10:11:14 2003 From: nigel_holt at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Nigel=20Holt?=) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:11:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pinter poem review In-Reply-To: <20030127215502.67F2F100E6@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20030128151114.11704.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com> Pinter's poem may hum more than the Pan-American Girl Guides Kazoo band, but at least he has the convictions to stand up to the shameful gunboat militarism of Bush's domestically bankrupt regime that lurches from one disaster to another in the hope of averting poll-death in the heat of a Khaki election. Nigel Blue Rondeau a la Berk Backing is becumen thin, Lhude blame Saddamm, Ukraine floppeth, Bahrein swappeth, And how Wall Street doth shamm! Blame: Saddamm. Slideth share and growleth bear, We?re on our own like ?Nam. Damm you; Blame: Saddamm. Saddamm, Saddamm, 'tis why I am, sod ?im, So 'gainst becumen calm. Blame Saddamm, damm, blame Saddamm, Blame Saddamm, blame Saddamm, DAMM. NJH __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jan 28 11:01:42 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:01:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: teaching poetry In-Reply-To: <000f01c2c661$a33852e0$0fc0fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E366316.25521.126BB3@localhost> Michael Snider: > > What is the equivalent for non-metrical verse? Does one simply point at > > exemplary texts? Just what is basic competence in a non-metrical form? Bob Grumman wrote: > Off the top of my head, I'd say it's the same as basic competence in prose.<< That would be a pretty devastating standard for almost all contemporary poetry, though -- are you sure you want to advocate that? Bob Grumman: > Plus knowledge of the nature and use of metaphor, and related devices. How > to lineate effectively would be central. I should think almost as much > about rhythm should be taught by a free-verse teacher as by a metrical verse > teacher, since rhythm freed of meter is still of great importance in > conveying emotion. Ditto everything concerning assonance, alliteration and > consonance.<< In short, everything about metered poetry except ... meter? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Jan 28 11:38:26 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:38:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinter poem review In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 1/27/03 4:29 PM, Michael Snider at mandolin at mac.com wrote: > Where did this review appear? I'd love to be able to link to it. > On Monday, January 27, 2003, at 02:54 PM, Paul Lake wrote: > >> Harold Pinter's "God Bless America" >> The latest piece of Brit anti-war poetry hits the streets with an >> incoherence that must be seen to be believed. Sample line: "Your eyes >> have >> gone out and your nose" . >> by J. Bottum >> 01/27/2003 12:00:00 AM > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > Here you go, Michael. I came across the article online at The Weekly Standard. The link is below. Paul Lake http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/172otmgg.a sp --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Jan 28 11:43:55 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 10:43:55 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: teaching poetry Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87051@mail.ripon.edu> If the only things "teachable" were "objective and technical criteria," then teaching any kind of writing would be impossible, no? Maybe teaching itself would become nearly impossible. In the arts generally, there are certain technical matters that can be distinguished from fuzzier, more contested aesthetic issues, yes. But my experience tells me that as soon as you're actually teaching, then it all gets fuzzy fast. Try to get a roomful of metricists, for example, to agree on the simple scansion of a single line, much less the *effectiveness* of someone's metrical skills. . . . I don't think this distinction between "objective" craft competence and artfulness-beyond-technique leads us very far. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > Well, yes, of course. But what is taught in music, dance, painting, > etc, is technique, along with theory in music. ( I know there's theory > in the others as well, but it's nowhere near as central.) And that is > my principal (perhaps my only) complaint against non-metrical verse: > what does one teach a novice writer of non-metrical verse? When > addressing a bad sonnet, for instance, it's easy to use relatively > objective and technical criteria, at least up to the point of basic > competence in the form: ........... > > Basic competence, of course, is not poetry. But surely it's required > before one reaches the point where, as Henry Gould put it, teaching > meets the unteachable. > > Best (but ducking) > > Michael > > From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jan 28 12:02:02 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 12:02:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chez des Beaux Ouvrage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3E36713A.3032.49AAB1@localhost> Chez des Beaux Ouvrage About suffering they were never wrong, The old managers: how well they understood Its harrowing power; how they took pride In placing blame directly where it does not belong; How, when those pursuing excellence are waiting For the miraculous raise, there always must be Perky-breasted new hires who survive skating On excuses at the edge of not very good Performance ratings. But even the most dreadful tongue-lashing must end In any corner office occupant's pratings, While the prairie-dogging cubicle occupants turn away Relieved that that disaster cannot spray Its forsaken splash on them, and they pretend There's no important failure. Fluorescents drone As they had on the white face disappearing into the down Elevator, and the expensive suits whose every frown Is feared, disperse, each trailing a delicate scent of cologne. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jan 28 12:45:24 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 12:45:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: teaching poetry Message-ID: <124.1d8ee6c7.2b681bb4@aol.com> In a message dated 1/27/03 6:30:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: > what does one teach a novice writer of non-metrical verse? By & large the exact same things, with perhaps only a change in emphasis, that a good teacher of meterical verse would teach: Finnegan From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Jan 28 14:03:08 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 13:03:08 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Tom Paulin Message-ID: Here's a link to another article on controversial poet Tom Paulin and his latest political poem. http://24.104.35.12/content/public/articles/000/000/002/141yywlf.asp --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jan 28 15:08:29 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:08:29 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Tom Paulin Message-ID: <1d6.110c45c.2b683d3d@cs.com> In a message dated 1/28/2003 1:07:13 PM Central Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > > Here's a link to another article on controversial poet Tom Paulin and his > latest political poem. > > http://24.104.35.12/content/public/articles/000/000/002/141yywlf.asp > > There is also an article in the current New Yorker that discusses the Paulin/Harvard mess, as well as other free-speech matters there. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Jan 28 15:07:32 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 14:07:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Tom Paulin In-Reply-To: <1d6.110c45c.2b683d3d@cs.com> Message-ID: on 1/28/03 2:08 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/28/2003 1:07:13 PM Central Standard Time, > paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > > >> >> Here's a link to another article on controversial poet Tom Paulin and his >> latest political poem. >> >> http://24.104.35.12/content/public/articles/000/000/002/141yywlf.asp >> >> > > There is also an article in the current New Yorker that discusses the > Paulin/Harvard mess, as well as other free-speech matters there. Thanks, I?ll check it out. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Jan 28 16:06:52 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 16:06:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: teaching poetry References: <3E366316.25521.126BB3@localhost> Message-ID: <00a501c2c711$2ef86f40$4acdfea9@j1c1k6> > Michael Snider: > > > What is the equivalent for non-metrical verse? Does one simply point at > > > exemplary texts? Just what is basic competence in a non-metrical form? > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > Off the top of my head, I'd say it's the same as basic competence in prose.<< > > That would be a pretty devastating standard for almost all > contemporary poetry, though -- are you sure you want to advocate > that? > > Bob Grumman: > > Plus knowledge of the nature and use of metaphor, and related devices. How > > to lineate effectively would be central. I should think almost as much > > about rhythm should be taught by a free-verse teacher as by a metrical verse > > teacher, since rhythm freed of meter is still of great importance in > > conveying emotion. Ditto everything concerning assonance, alliteration and > > consonance.<< > > In short, everything about metered poetry except ... meter? > Marcus Bales Pretty much, I would think. Frankly, I would teach meter, too, so free-versers would know what they're escaping from. And giving up. --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Jan 28 19:32:42 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:32:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Somewhere around Barstow Message-ID: Somewhere around Barstow The Iranian assured us that all spent fuel would be returned to Russia. The Visitor's Center was closed, so we had to go on without maps, without guidance. The media tried to fill the emptiness within us, but even the launching of moon orbiters failed to do the trick. We thought we'd settled on a political blueprint for our nation's future, but even that didn't pan out, though a conference hall full of astrophysicists had worked on it day and night for several weeks. Either the surface had been dried out by solar heating and maturation, or the dark soot-like material that covers Barstow's surface masked any trace of Arizona black ice. But still the road uncoiled before us until we surpassed it and it slithered away behind us in our rear-view mirror. The boundaries between counties hereabouts were not well marked, and we usually slid from one right into the next without warning, tours no longer being offered until further notice. The Humans in Space Symposium had been cancelled, stirring up a hornet's nest of activity among those impacted. In Arroyo City, we stopped to gas up, and to check out Arizona's claim that it had no nuclear or biological weapons programs, a claim we strongly doubted. Now that we pay at the pump, we never see any of the locals anymore, and everything else was underground except, of course, for the old, burnt-out roadhouse across the road from the pumps. Hand in hand, a column of kindergarten children marched by us, headed out along the road we'd followed into town, vanishing into the heat vapors rising from the pavement and the desert floor. Where they were headed we had no idea. Our newly bolstered inspection team visited a former nuclear facility forty-six miles south of Flagstaff. This, I thought, is eternity. A policeman biking past smiled, "The ball's in the bad guy's court now." Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Jan 28 23:09:25 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 22:09:25 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Somewhere around Barstow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030128215825.019e6880@mail.ilstu.edu> Bravo, Hal... At 07:32 PM 1/28/2003 -0500, Halvard Johnson wrote: >Somewhere around Barstow > >The Iranian assured us that all spent fuel would be returned to Russia. >The Visitor's Center was closed, so we had to go on >without maps, without guidance. The media tried to fill >the emptiness within us, but even the launching of moon orbiters > >failed to do the trick. We thought we'd settled >on a political blueprint for our nation's future, but even that >didn't pan out, though a conference hall full of astrophysicists had worked >on it day and night for several weeks. Either the surface had been dried > >out by solar heating and maturation, or the dark soot-like material that >covers >Barstow's surface masked any trace of Arizona black ice. But still the road >uncoiled before us until we surpassed it and it slithered away behind us >in our rear-view mirror. The boundaries between counties hereabouts > >were not well marked, and we usually slid from one right into the next >without warning, tours no longer being offered until further notice. >The Humans in Space Symposium had been cancelled, >stirring up a hornet's nest of activity among those impacted. > >In Arroyo City, we stopped to gas up, and to check out Arizona's claim >that it had no nuclear or biological weapons programs, a claim >we strongly doubted. Now that we pay at the pump, we never see any >of the locals anymore, and everything else was underground > >except, of course, for the old, burnt-out roadhouse across the road >from the pumps. Hand in hand, a column of kindergarten children >marched by us, headed out along the road we'd followed >into town, vanishing into the heat vapors rising from the pavement > >and the desert floor. Where they were headed we had no idea. >Our newly bolstered inspection team visited a former nuclear facility >forty-six miles south of Flagstaff. This, I thought, is eternity. >A policeman biking past smiled, "The ball's in the bad guy's court now." > > >Hal > >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From roger at chass.utoronto.ca Thu Jan 30 00:40:20 2003 From: roger at chass.utoronto.ca (Roger Greenwald) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 00:40:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading in NYC Feb. 11th Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20030130003528.00ac7fd0@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> Dear Friends and Colleagues, Please feel free to forward this notice. On February 11, 2003, I'll be reading from my two most recent translations of Norwegian poetry (Tarjei Vesaas, Rolf Jacobsen) Reading by Roger Greenwald Tuesday, February 11, 2003 at 7:00 p.m. Deutsches Haus 420 W. 116th St. (between Amsterdam and Morningside Avenues) New York, NY FREE ADMISSION For more information, see http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~roger/rdngnyc.html Thanks, Roger G From luap at mallasch.com Thu Jan 30 10:47:33 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:47:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels poetry event In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thursday January 30, 2003 4:50 AM NEW YORK (AP) - The White House said Wednesday it postponed a poetry symposium because of concerns that the event would be politicized. Some poets had said they wanted to protest military action against Iraq. The symposium on the poetry of Emily Dickinson, Langston Hughes and Walt Whitman was scheduled for Feb. 12. No future date has been announced. ``While Mrs. Bush respects the right of all Americans to express their opinions, she, too, has opinions and believes it would be inappropriate to turn a literary event into a political forum.'' Noelia Rodriguez, spokeswoman for first lady Laura Bush, said Wednesday. [snip] http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-2362176,00.html ------------------- No, it wouldn't be right to have literature or poetry that dealt with political events... Sigh... -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ From mandolin at mac.com Thu Jan 30 11:09:47 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:09:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels poetry event Message-ID: <2471390.1043942987744.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> It's one thing to write political poetry--it's quite another to hijack a discussion on Dickinson, Hughes, and Whitman in order to score political points. I have no idea whether Mrs. Bush was justified in expecting that outcome. On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 10:47AM, K. Paul Mallasch wrote: >Thursday January 30, 2003 4:50 AM > >NEW YORK (AP) - The White House said Wednesday it postponed a poetry >symposium because of concerns that the event would be politicized. Some >poets had said they wanted to protest military action against Iraq. > >The symposium on the poetry of Emily Dickinson, Langston Hughes and Walt >Whitman was scheduled for Feb. 12. No future date has been announced. > >``While Mrs. Bush respects the right of all Americans to express their >opinions, she, too, has opinions and believes it would be inappropriate to >turn a literary event into a political forum.'' Noelia Rodriguez, >spokeswoman for first lady Laura Bush, said Wednesday. > >[snip] > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-2362176,00.html > >------------------- > >No, it wouldn't be right to have literature or poetry that dealt with >political events... Sigh... > > >-kpaul >mallasch.com/mug/ > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From mbyrne at risd.edu Thu Jan 30 11:17:25 2003 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:17:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels poetry event Message-ID: It's truly amazing considering the phenomenal, politicized, and often politically troubling career of Langston Hughes, that honor should not be paid to him by accepting and entertaining the politicization of poetry and poetry events. Hughes, Dickinson, and Whitman were all wonderful, exuberant, hilarious, courageous, brilliant, brave, independent thinkers and doers. A celebratory event which is incapable of including contemporary poets who engage intellectually with the anguish of this time is not worth holding. Cancel Cancel Cancel. Mairead Mairead Byrne, Ph.D. Department of English Rhode Island School of Design 2 College Street Providence, RI 02903 Office: (401)454.6268 Home: (401)273.5964 mbyrne at risd.edu >>> luap at mallasch.com 01/30/03 11:00 AM >>> Thursday January 30, 2003 4:50 AM NEW YORK (AP) - The White House said Wednesday it postponed a poetry symposium because of concerns that the event would be politicized. Some poets had said they wanted to protest military action against Iraq. The symposium on the poetry of Emily Dickinson, Langston Hughes and Walt Whitman was scheduled for Feb. 12. No future date has been announced. ``While Mrs. Bush respects the right of all Americans to express their opinions, she, too, has opinions and believes it would be inappropriate to turn a literary event into a political forum.'' Noelia Rodriguez, spokeswoman for first lady Laura Bush, said Wednesday. [snip] http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-2362176,00.html ------------------- No, it wouldn't be right to have literature or poetry that dealt with political events... Sigh... -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Thu Jan 30 11:37:13 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:37:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels poetry event In-Reply-To: <2471390.1043942987744.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> References: <2471390.1043942987744.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <1043944633.3e3954b92fadd@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Michael, are you actually suggesting that to discuss Dickinson, Hughes and Whitman as political poets ?? poets who would in all likelihood loathe this president and his war plans -- would be to "hijack" their work (nevermind how loaded a term hijack is here). What exactly would you say about a poet who wrote, in the middle of the Civil War, "The Cat reprieves the Mouse / She eases from her teeth / Just long enough for Hope to tease -- / Then mashes it to death --" or one, for goodness sake, who *wrote* "When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd" and literally did see "battle corpses, myriads of them, / and the white skeletons of young men," who sat "by the wounded and soothed them or silently watched the dead"? You might consider the fact that the White House was not dis-inviting a few "politicized" poets to a cocktail party but rather, and much more imporatantly, *supressing* the work of three of our - OUR - best poets in a time when their poems run counter to a specific political agenda. At moments like these, I think of The People (by whom I mean everyone who has been cut out of the decision process while Bush and Hussein square off, the Iraqi people, surely, and the enormous majority of United States citizens) and some lines from Hughes: I, however, Have such meagre Power, Clutching at a moment, While you control An hour. But your hour is a stone. My moment is A flower. -m. Quoting Michael Snider : > It's one thing to write political poetry--it's quite another to hijack a > discussion on Dickinson, Hughes, and Whitman in order to score political > points. I have no idea whether Mrs. Bush was justified in expecting that > outcome. > > > On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 10:47AM, K. Paul Mallasch > wrote: > > >Thursday January 30, 2003 4:50 AM > > > >NEW YORK (AP) - The White House said Wednesday it postponed a poetry > >symposium because of concerns that the event would be politicized. Some > >poets had said they wanted to protest military action against Iraq. > > > >The symposium on the poetry of Emily Dickinson, Langston Hughes and Walt > >Whitman was scheduled for Feb. 12. No future date has been announced. > > > >``While Mrs. Bush respects the right of all Americans to express their > >opinions, she, too, has opinions and believes it would be inappropriate to > >turn a literary event into a political forum.'' Noelia Rodriguez, > >spokeswoman for first lady Laura Bush, said Wednesday. > > > >[snip] > > > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-2362176,00.html > > > >------------------- > > > >No, it wouldn't be right to have literature or poetry that dealt with > >political events... Sigh... > > > > > >-kpaul > >mallasch.com/mug/ > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Jan 30 11:49:40 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 10:49:40 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels poetry event In-Reply-To: <1043944633.3e3954b92fadd@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <2471390.1043942987744.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <2471390.1043942987744.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030130104849.01574db8@mail.ilstu.edu> Great posts, Mike and Mairead. g At 11:37 AM 1/30/2003 -0500, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote: >Michael, are you actually suggesting that to discuss Dickinson, Hughes and >Whitman as political poets ?? poets who would in all likelihood loathe this >president and his war plans -- would be to "hijack" their work (nevermind how >loaded a term hijack is here). What exactly would you say about a poet who >wrote, in the middle of the Civil War, "The Cat reprieves the Mouse / She >eases >from her teeth / Just long enough for Hope to tease -- / Then mashes it to >death --" or one, for goodness sake, who *wrote* "When Lilacs Last in the >Dooryard Bloom'd" and literally did see "battle corpses, myriads of them, >/ and >the white skeletons of young men," who sat "by the wounded and soothed >them or >silently watched the dead"? You might consider the fact that the White House >was not dis-inviting a few "politicized" poets to a cocktail party but >rather, >and much more imporatantly, *supressing* the work of three of our - OUR - >best >poets in a time when their poems run counter to a specific political agenda. >At moments like these, I think of The People (by whom I mean everyone who has >been cut out of the decision process while Bush and Hussein square off, the >Iraqi people, surely, and the enormous majority of United States citizens) >and >some lines from Hughes: > >I, however, >Have such meagre >Power, >Clutching at a moment, >While you control >An hour. > >But your hour is >a stone. > >My moment is >A flower. > >-m. > >Quoting Michael Snider : > > > It's one thing to write political poetry--it's quite another to hijack a > > discussion on Dickinson, Hughes, and Whitman in order to score political > > points. I have no idea whether Mrs. Bush was justified in expecting that > > outcome. > > > > > > On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 10:47AM, K. Paul Mallasch > > wrote: > > > > >Thursday January 30, 2003 4:50 AM > > > > > >NEW YORK (AP) - The White House said Wednesday it postponed a poetry > > >symposium because of concerns that the event would be politicized. Some > > >poets had said they wanted to protest military action against Iraq. > > > > > >The symposium on the poetry of Emily Dickinson, Langston Hughes and Walt > > >Whitman was scheduled for Feb. 12. No future date has been announced. > > > > > >``While Mrs. Bush respects the right of all Americans to express their > > >opinions, she, too, has opinions and believes it would be inappropriate to > > >turn a literary event into a political forum.'' Noelia Rodriguez, > > >spokeswoman for first lady Laura Bush, said Wednesday. > > > > > >[snip] > > > > > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-2362176,00.html > > > > > >------------------- > > > > > >No, it wouldn't be right to have literature or poetry that dealt with > > >political events... Sigh... > > > > > > > > >-kpaul > > >mallasch.com/mug/ > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >New-Poetry mailing list > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mandolin at mac.com Thu Jan 30 12:37:46 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:37:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels poetry event Message-ID: <3036792.1043948266715.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 11:37AM, wrote: >Michael, are you actually suggesting that to discuss Dickinson, Hughes and >Whitman as political poets ?? poets who would in all likelihood loathe this >president and his war plans -- would be to "hijack" their work (nevermind how >loaded a term hijack is here). I meant it to be loaded. What exactly would you say about a poet who >wrote, in the middle of the Civil War, "The Cat reprieves the Mouse / She eases >from her teeth / Just long enough for Hope to tease -- / Then mashes it to >death --" or one, for goodness sake, who *wrote* "When Lilacs Last in the >Dooryard Bloom'd" and literally did see "battle corpses, myriads of them, / and >the white skeletons of young men," who sat "by the wounded and soothed them or >silently watched the dead"? You might consider the fact that the White House >was not dis-inviting a few "politicized" poets to a cocktail party but rather, >and much more imporatantly, *supressing* the work of three of our - OUR - best >poets in a time when their poems run counter to a specific political agenda. However much those three may have diliked Bush or his policies--and surely you don't mean to suggest that Whitman, whose "O Captain" celebrated the life and mourned the death of Lincoln-- opposed the conduct of the war--nothing much about their work would be learned by reducing that work to opposition to those policies. >At moments like these, I think of The People (by whom I mean everyone who has >been cut out of the decision process while Bush and Hussein square off, the >Iraqi people, surely, and the enormous majority of United States citizens) and >some lines from Hughes: > >I, however, >Have such meagre >Power, >Clutching at a moment, >While you control >An hour. > >But your hour is >a stone. > >My moment is >A flower. > >-m. > Reducing that poem to opposition to Bush's Middle Eastern policies demeans Hughes. That is not to say that poets (or others) shouldn't find in it support for their opposition, or publicly use it to celebrate their opposition. But it's not part of talking about the poem itself (which could certainly include talking about the political circumstances of Hughes' life). From dbarone at sjc.edu Thu Jan 30 13:05:37 2003 From: dbarone at sjc.edu (Barone, Dennis) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:05:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush Message-ID: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249001BA19D1@sjcmail.sjc.edu> In response to Mrs. Bush: Still Here I've been scarred and battered. My hopes the wind done scattered. Snow has friz me, sun has baked me. Looks like between 'em They done tried to make me Stop laughin', stop lovin', stop livin'- But I don't care! I'm still here! Langston Hughes (sent in to the commission by Dennis Barone - code name CRM 114) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jan 30 13:29:10 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:29:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels poetry event Message-ID: A week or two ago on C-SPAN I watched a recording of a poetry event at the White House dealing with African-American poetry. At one point, Mrs. Bush, who hosted the event, got up to read a poem by Langston Hughes. In her introduction to the poem, she mentioned that once when Langston Hughes was being discussed by Jack and Jackie Kennedy--I think they were about to invite him to the White House--Jack Kennedy had no idea who Langston Hughes was. Mrs. Bush took a book from the White House collection put there, I believe, by Jackie Kennedy herself, and told her audience how although Jack may not have known who Langston Hughes was, Jackie obviously did. Mrs. Bush, a former librarian, then read the poem (whose title I've forgotten) herself, and it was no sugar-coated plum, but a poem about the problem of being black in America. So I don't think she's against poetry, black poetry, or poetry by Hughes. I suppose the White House fears something like the crude 9/11 poem by Amiri Baraka. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jan 30 13:33:11 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:33:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels poetry event In-Reply-To: <1043944633.3e3954b92fadd@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: on 1/30/03 10:37 AM, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu at mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote: So, Michael, are you suggesting that Dickinson and Whitman opposed the Civil War--and wanted to preserve slavery? > Michael, are you actually suggesting that to discuss Dickinson, Hughes and > Whitman as political poets ?? poets who would in all likelihood loathe this > president and his war plans -- would be to "hijack" their work (nevermind how > loaded a term hijack is here). What exactly would you say about a poet who > wrote, in the middle of the Civil War, "The Cat reprieves the Mouse / She > eases > from her teeth / Just long enough for Hope to tease -- / Then mashes it to > death --" or one, for goodness sake, who *wrote* "When Lilacs Last in the > Dooryard Bloom'd" and literally did see "battle corpses, myriads of them, / > and > the white skeletons of young men," who sat "by the wounded and soothed them or > silently watched the dead"? You might consider the fact that the White House > was not dis-inviting a few "politicized" poets to a cocktail party but rather, > and much more imporatantly, *supressing* the work of three of our - OUR - best > poets in a time when their poems run counter to a specific political agenda. > At moments like these, I think of The People (by whom I mean everyone who has > been cut out of the decision process while Bush and Hussein square off, the > Iraqi people, surely, and the enormous majority of United States citizens) and > some lines from Hughes: > > I, however, > Have such meagre > Power, > Clutching at a moment, > While you control > An hour. > > But your hour is > a stone. > > My moment is > A flower. > > -m. > > Quoting Michael Snider : > >> It's one thing to write political poetry--it's quite another to hijack a >> discussion on Dickinson, Hughes, and Whitman in order to score political >> points. I have no idea whether Mrs. Bush was justified in expecting that >> outcome. >> >> >> On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 10:47AM, K. Paul Mallasch >> wrote: >> >>> Thursday January 30, 2003 4:50 AM >>> >>> NEW YORK (AP) - The White House said Wednesday it postponed a poetry >>> symposium because of concerns that the event would be politicized. Some >>> poets had said they wanted to protest military action against Iraq. >>> >>> The symposium on the poetry of Emily Dickinson, Langston Hughes and Walt >>> Whitman was scheduled for Feb. 12. No future date has been announced. >>> >>> ``While Mrs. Bush respects the right of all Americans to express their >>> opinions, she, too, has opinions and believes it would be inappropriate to >>> turn a literary event into a political forum.'' Noelia Rodriguez, >>> spokeswoman for first lady Laura Bush, said Wednesday. >>> >>> [snip] >>> >>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-2362176,00.html >>> >>> ------------------- >>> >>> No, it wouldn't be right to have literature or poetry that dealt with >>> political events... Sigh... >>> >>> >>> -kpaul >>> mallasch.com/mug/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jan 30 13:40:32 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:40:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels Message-ID: Robert Lowell famously spurned a White House invitation once in protest of war. Sadly, it's one of the few ways a poet can make the news. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jan 30 13:46:17 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:46:17 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels Message-ID: Here's a more detailed article on the cancelled poetry event, from The Guardian. Paul Lake * White House Cancels Poetry Symposium Thursday January 30, 2003 4:50 AM NEW YORK (AP) - The White House said Wednesday it postponed a poetry symposium because of concerns that the event would be politicized. Some poets had said they wanted to protest military action against Iraq. The symposium on the poetry of Emily Dickinson, Langston Hughes and Walt Whitman was scheduled for Feb. 12. No future date has been announced. ``While Mrs. Bush respects the right of all Americans to express their opinions, she, too, has opinions and believes it would be inappropriate to turn a literary event into a political forum.'' Noelia Rodriguez, spokeswoman for first lady Laura Bush, said Wednesday. Mrs. Bush, a former librarian who has made teaching and early childhood development her signature issues, has held a series of White House symposiums to salute America's authors. The gatherings are usually lively affairs with discussions of literature and its societal impact. But the poetry symposium soon inspired a nationwide protest. Sam Hamill, a poet and founder of the highly regarded Copper Canyon Press, declined the invitation and e-mailed friends asking for anti-war poems or statements. He encouraged those who planned to attend to bring along anti-war poems. Hamill said he's gotten more than 1,500 contributions, including ones from poets W.S. Merwin, Adrienne Rich and Lawrence Ferlinghetti. ``I'm putting in 18-hour days. I'm 60 and I'm tired, but it's pretty wonderful,'' says Hamill, based in Port Townsend, Wash., and author of such works as ``Destination Zero'' and ``Gratitude.'' Marilyn Nelson, Connecticut's poet laureate, said Wednesday that she had accepted the White House invitation and had planned to wear a silk scarf with peace signs that she commissioned. ``I had decided to go because I felt my presence would promote peace,'' she said. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Thu Jan 30 14:08:56 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:08:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels poetry event In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1043953736.3e397848c21cf@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Paul, no, far from it: I'm suggesting that Dickinson and Whitman opposed unjust asymmetries of power -- slavery and the "property" status of women being the two most obvious examples of their day. But, even more relevant to this specific thread, I'm suggesting that their poems are deeply political, by which I mean that the political/social concerns of these two wonderful poets are woven into the very fabric and texture of the poems. Hence, an honest and thoroughgoing discussion of their work couldn't possibly avoid its political implications, or by extension the relevance of those implications to our current situation. It is THIS in my estimation which caused the cancellation, rather than any fear of an Amiri Baraka-like protest over tea. After all, unlike the Poet Laureate of Connecticut (and I imagine several other states?), the poet Laureate of NJ (or has he already been deposed? I lost track) was not invited to tea. From the sounds of it, peace signs on a specially-made scarf was about as rowdy as it was gonna get. And I'm willing to venure that, had the discussion been about the poetry of Billy Collins, Mary-Jo Salter and Dana Gioia, it would still be on as planned, regardless of the guest list. -m. Quoting Paul Lake : > on 1/30/03 10:37 AM, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu at > mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote: > > So, Michael, are you suggesting that Dickinson and Whitman opposed the Civil > War--and wanted to preserve slavery? > > > > Michael, are you actually suggesting that to discuss Dickinson, Hughes and > > Whitman as political poets ?? poets who would in all likelihood loathe > this > > president and his war plans -- would be to "hijack" their work (nevermind > how > > loaded a term hijack is here). What exactly would you say about a poet > who > > wrote, in the middle of the Civil War, "The Cat reprieves the Mouse / She > > eases > > from her teeth / Just long enough for Hope to tease -- / Then mashes it to > > death --" or one, for goodness sake, who *wrote* "When Lilacs Last in the > > Dooryard Bloom'd" and literally did see "battle corpses, myriads of them, > / > > and > > the white skeletons of young men," who sat "by the wounded and soothed them > or > > silently watched the dead"? You might consider the fact that the White > House > > was not dis-inviting a few "politicized" poets to a cocktail party but > rather, > > and much more imporatantly, *supressing* the work of three of our - OUR - > best > > poets in a time when their poems run counter to a specific political > agenda. > > At moments like these, I think of The People (by whom I mean everyone who > has > > been cut out of the decision process while Bush and Hussein square off, > the > > Iraqi people, surely, and the enormous majority of United States citizens) > and > > some lines from Hughes: > > > > I, however, > > Have such meagre > > Power, > > Clutching at a moment, > > While you control > > An hour. > > > > But your hour is > > a stone. > > > > My moment is > > A flower. > > > > -m. > > > > Quoting Michael Snider : > > > >> It's one thing to write political poetry--it's quite another to hijack a > >> discussion on Dickinson, Hughes, and Whitman in order to score political > >> points. I have no idea whether Mrs. Bush was justified in expecting that > >> outcome. > >> > >> > >> On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 10:47AM, K. Paul Mallasch > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Thursday January 30, 2003 4:50 AM > >>> > >>> NEW YORK (AP) - The White House said Wednesday it postponed a poetry > >>> symposium because of concerns that the event would be politicized. Some > >>> poets had said they wanted to protest military action against Iraq. > >>> > >>> The symposium on the poetry of Emily Dickinson, Langston Hughes and Walt > >>> Whitman was scheduled for Feb. 12. No future date has been announced. > >>> > >>> ``While Mrs. Bush respects the right of all Americans to express their > >>> opinions, she, too, has opinions and believes it would be inappropriate > to > >>> turn a literary event into a political forum.'' Noelia Rodriguez, > >>> spokeswoman for first lady Laura Bush, said Wednesday. > >>> > >>> [snip] > >>> > >>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-2362176,00.html > >>> > >>> ------------------- > >>> > >>> No, it wouldn't be right to have literature or poetry that dealt with > >>> political events... Sigh... > >>> > >>> > >>> -kpaul > >>> mallasch.com/mug/ > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> New-Poetry mailing list > >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > --- > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > > > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From ron.silliman at verizon.net Thu Jan 30 14:12:17 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 14:12:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] White House Cancels Poetry Symposium Message-ID: <000b01c2c893$860509a0$bd0ff243@Dell> White House Cancels Poetry Symposium Thursday January 30, 2003 10:20 AM NEW YORK (AP) - The White House postponed a poetry symposium out of concerns it would be politicized after some poets said they wanted to protest military action against Iraq. The symposium on the poetry of Emily Dickinson, Langston Hughes and Walt Whitman had been scheduled for Feb. 12. No future date has been announced for the event, to be held by first lady Laura Bush. ``While Mrs. Bush respects the right of all Americans to express their opinions, she, too, has opinions and believes it would be inappropriate to turn a literary event into a political forum,'' Noelia Rodriguez, a spokeswoman for the first lady, said Wednesday. Mrs. Bush, a former librarian who has made teaching and early childhood development her signature issues, has held a series of White House symposiums to salute America's authors. The gatherings are usually lively affairs with discussions of literature and its impact on society. But the poetry symposium quickly inspired a nationwide protest. Sam Hamill, a poet and editor of the highly regarded Copper Canyon Press, declined the invitation and e-mailed friends asking for antiwar poems or statements. ``Make February 12 a day of Poetry Against the War. We will compile an anthology of protest to be presented to the White House on that afternoon,'' the e-mail reads. He had expected about 50 responses; he's gotten more than 1,500, including contributions from W.S. Merwin, Adrienne Rich and Lawrence Ferlinghetti. Hamill will post all the submissions on a Web site he expects to have ready early next week. ``I'm putting in 18-hour days. I'm 60 and I'm tired, but it's pretty wonderful,'' says Hamill, author of such works as ``Destination Zero'' and ``Gratitude.'' Copper Canyon Press, based in Port Townsend, Wash., published last fall's winner of the National Book Award for poetry, Ruth Stone's ``In the Next Galaxy.'' White House invitations have inspired protests before. In 1965, poet Robert Lowell refused to attend a White House arts festival, citing opposition to the Vietnam War. Marilyn Nelson, Connecticut's poet laureate, said Wednesday she had accepted her invitation to the poetry symposium and criticized the White House for trying to silence the voice of American artists. ``I had decided to go because I felt my presence would promote peace,'' she said. ``I had commissioned a fabric artist for a silk scarf with peace signs painted on it. I thought just by going there and shaking Mrs. Bush's hand and being available for the photo ops, my scarf would make a statement.'' Another state poet laureate, New Jersey's Amiri Baraka, was also involved in a recent political controversy. Baraka wrote a poem implying Israel had advance knowledge of the 2001 terrorist attacks, leading critics to call for his resignation. From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Thu Jan 30 14:17:11 2003 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (MAXINE CHERNOFF) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:17:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels poetry event In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No cruder than her husband's lying state of the union address. Maxine Chernoff On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Paul Lake wrote: > A week or two ago on C-SPAN I watched a recording of a poetry event at the > White House dealing with African-American poetry. At one point, Mrs. Bush, > who hosted the event, got up to read a poem by Langston Hughes. In her > introduction to the poem, she mentioned that once when Langston Hughes was > being discussed by Jack and Jackie Kennedy--I think they were about to > invite him to the White House--Jack Kennedy had no idea who Langston Hughes > was. Mrs. Bush took a book from the White House collection put there, I > believe, by Jackie Kennedy herself, and told her audience how although Jack > may not have known who Langston Hughes was, Jackie obviously did. Mrs. > Bush, a former librarian, then read the poem (whose title I've forgotten) > herself, and it was no sugar-coated plum, but a poem about the problem of > being black in America. So I don't think she's against poetry, black poetry, > or poetry by Hughes. I suppose the White House fears something like the > crude 9/11 poem by Amiri Baraka. > > Paul Lake > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mandolin at mac.com Thu Jan 30 15:33:48 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:33:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels Message-ID: <4625355.1043958828552.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 01:46PM, Paul Lake wrote: >Here's a more detailed article on the cancelled poetry event, from The >Guardian. > [snip] > >But the poetry symposium soon inspired a nationwide protest. > >Sam Hamill, a poet and founder of the highly regarded Copper Canyon Press, >declined the invitation and e-mailed friends asking for anti-war poems or >statements. He encouraged those who planned to attend to bring along >anti-war poems. > >Hamill said he's gotten more than 1,500 contributions, including ones from >poets W.S. Merwin, Adrienne Rich and Lawrence Ferlinghetti. > >``I'm putting in 18-hour days. I'm 60 and I'm tired, but it's pretty >wonderful,'' says Hamill, based in Port Townsend, Wash., and author of such >works as ``Destination Zero'' and ``Gratitude.'' > [snip] So the way to celebrate and discuss the work of other people is to read one's own partisan poems? Sounds like Laura Bush may have been right to cancel. BTW, here's an account (http://www.cprw.com/Renau/britlit.htm) of a forum where the poets wouldn't go along with the moderator's attempts to politicize the discussion. Best, Michael From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Jan 30 15:50:23 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:50:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels References: <4625355.1043958828552.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <3E39900F.B4BD22FF@earthlink.net> Michael Snider wrote: > > > On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 01:46PM, Paul Lake wrote: > > >Here's a more detailed article on the cancelled poetry event, from The > >Guardian. > > > [snip] > So the way to celebrate and discuss the work of other people is to read one's own partisan poems? > > Sounds like Laura Bush may have been right to cancel. Well, from the Seattle Times, here's another. Partisan poems? Partisan cancellation! - Jim > Poetry slams into politics at White House > Full story: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134624725_poets30m.html > > By Nicole Brodeur > Seattle Times staff columnist > > They postponed "The White House Symposium on Poetry and the American Voice" the other day. > > One reason might be that they sent an invitation to Sam Hamill. > > The founding editor of the prestigious Copper Canyon Press in Port Townsend seemed the perfect guest to join a talk on American poetry Feb. 12. But Hamill, 59, couldn't bear President Bush's talk of war. > > So he sent an invitation of his own, asking his literary friends to write anti-war poems that will be posted sometime today on a new Web site, www.poetsagainstthewar.org, then published as an anthology and sent to the White House. Yesterday, four days after he sent out the invitation, Hamill was swimming in a sea of stanzas, with 1,800 submissions. > > The White House postponed the symposium that same day. > > "They've discovered what's happening," Hamill said. > > Laura Bush's press secretary, Noelia Rodriguez, confirmed that the symposium had been postponed. In a statement, the first lady said the reason was that "some invited guests wanted to turn what is intended to be a literary event into a political forum." > > "While Mrs. Bush respects the right of all Americans to express their opinions," the statement continued, "she, too, has opinions and believes it would be inappropriate to turn a literary event into a political forum." > > Hamill believes it proves the pen is more powerful than the sword. > > "There are a lot of people writing and reading poetry in this country who are feeling alienated," Hamill said. "A lot of people feel deep in their gut that first strike is not an American way of doing things. > > "People have felt silenced, and we are providing a platform for poets to speak together." > > He has heard from the likes of Hayden Carruth, winner of the National Book Award, and Yusef Komunyakaa, who wrote poetry while serving in the Army in Vietnam and won the Pulitzer Prize for poetry in 1994. > > W.S. Merwin, another Pulitzer winner and the former chancellor of The Academy of American Poets, wrote "an incredible indictment of Bush," which he read to Hamill over the phone. > > The names go on: Philip Levine, Grace Paley, Galway Kinnell. > > "To have all these poets join me has left me in tears more than once," Hamill said. > > Will it make any difference to Bush? Kevin Price, assistant professor of political science at the University of Washington, says President Bush's White House doesn't have much use for the American intelligentsia. > > "Because the majority of American intelligentsia is left-progressive," Price explains. "Obviously, there are important, forceful, sophisticated exceptions, but not too many of them are poets." > > Given the current polarization of opinions over Iraq and the possibility of war, Price says, "Mini-showdowns over things like the poetry conference are a manifestation of the larger divisions in the political system." > > That someone like Hamill is at the helm of a protest is no surprise. In 1968, he ran for the California State Assembly on an anti-war, socialist ticket. He worked on the Eugene McCarthy campaign. > > In 1972, he founded Copper Canyon with Tree Swenson, who is now the director of The Academy of American Poets. > > In the time since, Copper Canyon has published more than 240 books and CDs, including works by five Nobel laureates and three Pulitzer winners. The day before receiving his invitation, Hamill had read a report on the president's proposed attack on Iraq, which did not rule out nuclear weapons. > > The next day, Hamill wrote his invitation to a dozen of his poet friends: > > He asked poets "to speak up for the conscience of our country" and make Feb. 12 — the day the first lady had scheduled her symposium — a Day of Poetry Against the War. > > "What idiot thought Sam Hamill would be a good candidate for Laura Bush's tea party?" he asked. "Someone's going to get fired over this." > > Seattle Times staff reporter Michael Ko contributed to this report. From mandolin at mac.com Thu Jan 30 16:10:40 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:10:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels Message-ID: <1535589.1043961040837.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 03:50PM, James Cervantes wrote: > >> "What idiot thought Sam Hamill would be a good candidate for Laura Bush's tea party?" he asked. "Someone's going to get fired over this." >> In other words, he planned to hijack the discussion. I do NOT support Bush's foreign policy--I think he has created the current crisis through inattention, misplaced priorities, ignorance, and personal vanity. Hamill's done the same--though no one will die as a result of what he did. Best, Michael From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jan 30 16:26:44 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:26:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels Message-ID: <10c.1eaf1c18.2b6af294@cs.com> In a message dated 1/30/2003 12:44:21 PM Central Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > > Robert Lowell famously spurned a White House invitation once in protest of > war. Sadly, it's one of the few ways a poet can make the news. > > Paul Lake > And the poets who did not choose to attend should have done likewise--turned down the invitation, made their reasons for doing so public, and either stayed home or hosted their own events. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jan 30 16:29:24 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:29:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels poetry event Message-ID: In a message dated 1/30/2003 1:09:44 PM Central Standard Time, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu writes: > From the sounds of it, peace signs on a specially-made scarf > was about as rowdy as it was gonna get. And I'm willing to venure that, > had > the discussion been about the poetry of Billy Collins, Mary-Jo Salter and > Dana > Gioia, it would still be on as planned, regardless of the guest list. > This a preposterous statement, totally unsupported by logic or understanding. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jan 30 16:39:12 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:39:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels poetry event In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 1/30/03 3:29 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/30/2003 1:09:44 PM Central Standard Time, > mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu writes: > > >> From the sounds of it, peace signs on a specially-made scarf >> was about as rowdy as it was gonna get. And I'm willing to venure that, had >> the discussion been about the poetry of Billy Collins, Mary-Jo Salter and >> Dana >> Gioia, it would still be on as planned, regardless of the guest list. >> > > This a preposterous statement, totally unsupported by logic or understanding. I simply misread the above statement the first time through. Re-examining it, I agree with Sam. This is nutty. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 30 16:45:33 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 13:45:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels poetry event In-Reply-To: <1043944633.3e3954b92fadd@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <20030130214533.62517.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Beat drums Beat Beat Beat!!! Sheesh... mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote:Michael, are you actually suggesting that to discuss Dickinson, Hughes and Whitman as political poets ?? poets who would in all likelihood loathe this president and his war plans -- would be to "hijack" their work (nevermind how loaded a term hijack is here). What exactly would you say about a poet who wrote, in the middle of the Civil War, "The Cat reprieves the Mouse / She eases from her teeth / Just long enough for Hope to tease -- / Then mashes it to death --" or one, for goodness sake, who *wrote* "When Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd" and literally did see "battle corpses, myriads of them, / and the white skeletons of young men," who sat "by the wounded and soothed them or silently watched the dead"? You might consider the fact that the White House was not dis-inviting a few "politicized" poets to a cocktail party but rather, and much more imporatantly, *supressing* the work of three of our - OUR - best poets in a time when their poems run counter to a specific political agenda. At moments like these, I think of The People (by whom I mean everyone who has been cut out of the decision process while Bush and Hussein square off, the Iraqi people, surely, and the enormous majority of United States citizens) and some lines from Hughes: I, however, Have such meagre Power, Clutching at a moment, While you control An hour. But your hour is a stone. My moment is A flower. -m. Quoting Michael Snider : > It's one thing to write political poetry--it's quite another to hijack a > discussion on Dickinson, Hughes, and Whitman in order to score political > points. I have no idea whether Mrs. Bush was justified in expecting that > outcome. > > > On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 10:47AM, K. Paul Mallasch > wrote: > > >Thursday January 30, 2003 4:50 AM > > > >NEW YORK (AP) - The White House said Wednesday it postponed a poetry > >symposium because of concerns that the event would be politicized. Some > >poets had said they wanted to protest military action against Iraq. > > > >The symposium on the poetry of Emily Dickinson, Langston Hughes and Walt > >Whitman was scheduled for Feb. 12. No future date has been announced. > > > >``While Mrs. Bush respects the right of all Americans to express their > >opinions, she, too, has opinions and believes it would be inappropriate to > >turn a literary event into a political forum.'' Noelia Rodriguez, > >spokeswoman for first lady Laura Bush, said Wednesday. > > > >[snip] > > > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-2362176,00.html > > > >------------------- > > > >No, it wouldn't be right to have literature or poetry that dealt with > >political events... Sigh... > > > > > >-kpaul > >mallasch.com/mug/ > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jan 30 17:33:17 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:33:17 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels Message-ID: Michael, One quibble I have with what you write is your implicit assumption regarding what you call "asymmetries of power"--a phrase that seems to imply that--as with slavery or the subjugation of women--justice invariably resides on the side of the weaker; or that whenever an asymmetry of power exists, armed conflict is by definition immoral. The problem is that, for instance, the North in the Civil War had a larger population and industrial base than the South--and was therefore the beneficiary of an asymmetry of power. That doesn't mean the Civil War was an unjust war. Likewise, in WW II, the USA was a larger and more powerful nation than Japan, and yet once they bombed us, I think we were justified in exercising our superior military and industrial power to defend our own country and others that had been subjugated by Japanese imperialism. There's an asymmetry of power between al Quaeda's ragtag army of terrorists and the US, but that doesn't make an armed response to their attacks immoral. Sadam Hussein, his immediate family, and political party have more power than the Kurds or the common people of Iraq. Would his overthrow by an even more powerful faction be by definition immoral even if, like America's slaves, the Iraqui people are freed from his tyranny? I'm not sure we'll find the answer to such a complex question by appealing to the poetry of Whitman, Hughes, or Dickinson. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jan 30 17:37:52 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 16:37:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia confirmed Message-ID: Dana Gioia was unanimously confirmed by the Senate this morning as the new head of the National Endowment. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jan 30 17:49:52 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:49:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob & Sylvia & Ted & Anne Message-ID: <51.2ae6b9e8.2b6b0610@aol.com> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE YALE REPERTORY THEATRE PRESENTS THE NEW ENGLAND PREMIERE OF THE AWARD-WINNING THE PSYCHIC LIFE OF SAVAGES BY AMY FREED ARTISTIC DIRECTOR JAMES BUNDY MAKES HIS YALE REP DIRECTORIAL DEBUT FEBRUARY 14-MARCH 8 AT YALE REPERTORY THEATRE OPENING NIGHT IS FEBRUARY 20 NEW HAVEN, CONN. - Yale Repertory Theatre (James Bundy, Artistic Director; Victoria Nolan, Managing Director) is pleased to present the New England premiere of THE PSYCHIC LIFE OF SAVAGES by Amy Freed, directed by James Bundy in his Yale Rep debut. THE PSYCHIC LIFE OF SAVAGES begins performances on Friday, February 14 and will play through March 8 only. Opening Night is Thursday, February 20. THE PSYCHIC LIFE OF SAVAGES features Scenic Design by Young Ju Baik, Costume Design by Corrine Larson, Lighting Design by Torkel Skjaerven, and Sound Design by Sten Severson. Emily Shooltz is the Dramaturg. Pamela Prather is the Vocal Coach. Rick Sordelet is the Fight Director. Laura MacNeil is the Stage Manager. The cast of THE PSYCHIC LIFE OF SAVAGES features Fiona Gallagher (Sylvia Fluellen), Robyn Ganeles (Kit-Kat and others), Meg Gibson (Anne Bittenhand), John Hines (Ted Magus), Bill Kux (Announcer and others), Will Marchetti (Dr. Robert Stoner), and Phyllis Somerville (Emily Dickinson, Vera). Inspired by the lives and writings of Sylvia Plath, Ted Hughes, Robert Lowell, and Anne Sexton, Amy Freed's wickedly funny, award-winning play captures four poets struggling to tame the demons that drive them to art - and each other's beds. Love truly is a battlefield as they contend with everything from dim-witted undergraduates to writer's block, from Emily Dickinson's ghost to the realization that acts of creation are not unlike acts of madness -and that the ultimate price of being an artist is sometimes death. Zany, terrifying and sexy, THE PSYCHIC LIFE OF SAVAGES received both the Joseph Kesselring Award and the Charles MacArthur Award for Outstanding New Play. THE PSYCHIC LIFE OF SAVAGES will be performed at Yale Repertory Theatre (1120 Chapel Street, at York Street) on the following schedule: Tuesday through Saturday at 8PM, with matinees on Saturday at 2PM. There is a special Monday evening performances on February 17 at 8PM and a Wednesday matinee on March 5 at 2PM. Yale Rep is pleased to offer a variety of special events during the run of THE PSYCHIC LIFE OF SAVAGES at no additional cost, including Yale Night on Friday, February 14, which includes free pizza and soft drinks for students from area colleges and universities; Opening Night on Thursday, February 20, with a celebration following the performance at Hot Tomato's, Re:Play, a Q&A session with the cast and crew following the matinee performance on Saturday, February 22; and Senior Matinee on Wednesday, March 5. Additionally, the Rep will offer a Sign-Interpreted Performance on Saturday, February 22 at 2PM and an Audio-Described Performance on Saturday, March 1 at 2PM. Steven Padla Media Relations Manager Yale Repertory Theatre 222 York Street P.O. Box 208244 New Haven, CT 06520-8244 (203) 432 1574 steven.padla at yale.edu From mandolin at mac.com Thu Jan 30 17:52:12 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:52:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels In-Reply-To: <1535589.1043961040837.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <78723505-34A5-11D7-9604-000393C29586@mac.com> On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 04:10 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > I do NOT support Bush's foreign policy--I think he has created the > current crisis through inattention, misplaced priorities, ignorance, > and personal vanity. Hamill's done the same--though no one will die as > a result of what he did. I stand by this--Slate's Michael Kinsley (http://slate.msn.com/id/2077856/) has what I think is an excellent review of the SotU speech--but I'll probably dance when Saddam Hussein is gone. No more from me on politics for a while. From mandolin at mac.com Thu Jan 30 17:52:40 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:52:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia confirmed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <892187B2-34A5-11D7-9604-000393C29586@mac.com> Wonderful! On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 05:37 PM, Paul Lake wrote: > Dana Gioia was unanimously confirmed by the Senate this morning as the > new > head of the National Endowment. > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jan 30 19:12:41 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 19:12:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia confirmed References: Message-ID: <003101c2c8bd$79818260$730ffea9@j1c1k6> Meanwhile, Burt Kimmelman is trying to get someone to write an entry on Gioia for his Facts on File Companion to American Poetry. I certainly don't think he merits an entry, but I'm not the editor, so am passing the word. You can contact Burt at kimmelman at njit.edu I did a couple of entries for it. Pay is just a copy of the book, if that, but I considered it a chance to say something about some poets no one else would've. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 5:37 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia confirmed > Dana Gioia was unanimously confirmed by the Senate this morning as the new > head of the National Endowment. > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From elemenope at icubed.com Thu Jan 30 02:29:58 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 15:29:58 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: White House Cancels Poetry Symposium Message-ID: >> >> This report illustrates the internecine conundrum, exactly. The inability of the RadLib poetry elite to defend their own country! (Their Socialist agenda has never backed the US Republic qua Republic.) What must the enemies of America believe of us when spies report back to their IntelOps this story of those who claim to speak for the country's soul. Shameful. And Nelson with her peace scarf. Stupid. >>France: new billion dollar contracts with Saddam. Germany: new >>billion dollar contracts with Saddam. Libya: overseer of human >>rights at the UN! Fists will rise at Naropa but not a single one swung at Saddam. The anti-BlairIsts, Upton and Pinter of England, should be reaffirmed in their YankHate as will Clark who wrote for all the world forever on 9/11/01: >> >>>At 04:28 PM +0100 9/11/01, Douglas Clark wrote: >>>>Very sorry about it. There is nothing else on the TV here. But >>>>I am puzzled why Osman didn't go for the White House. Perhaps >>>>it is too small a target and the British were there first. >>> But Osman has been brilliant. Very sad for the deaths. >> >> >> >>>White House Cancels Poetry Symposium >>> >>> >>>Thursday January 30, 2003 4:50 AM >>> >>> >>>NEW YORK (AP) - The White House said Wednesday it postponed a >>>poetry symposium because of concerns that the event would be >>>politicized. Some poets had said they wanted to protest military >>>action against Iraq. >>> >>>The symposium on the poetry of Emily Dickinson, Langston Hughes >>>and Walt Whitman was scheduled for Feb. 12. No future date has >>>been announced. >>> >>>``While Mrs. Bush respects the right of all Americans to express >>>their opinions, she, too, has opinions and believes it would be >>>inappropriate to turn a literary event into a political forum.'' >>>Noelia Rodriguez, spokeswoman for first lady Laura Bush, said >>>Wednesday. >>> >>>Mrs. Bush, a former librarian who has made teaching and early >>>childhood development her signature issues, has held a series of >>>White House symposiums to salute America's authors. The gatherings >>>are usually lively affairs with discussions of literature and its >>>societal impact. >>> >>>But the poetry symposium soon inspired a nationwide protest. >>> >>>Sam Hamill, a poet and founder of the highly regarded Copper >>>Canyon Press, declined the invitation and e-mailed friends asking >>>for anti-war poems or statements. He encouraged those who planned >>>to attend to bring along anti-war poems. >>> >>>Hamill said he's gotten more than 1,500 contributions, including >>>ones from poets W.S. Merwin, Adrienne Rich and Lawrence >>>Ferlinghetti. >>> >>>``I'm putting in 18-hour days. I'm 60 and I'm tired, but it's >>>pretty wonderful,'' says Hamill, based in Port Townsend, Wash., >>>and author of such works as ``Destination Zero'' and ``Gratitude.'' >>> >>>Marilyn Nelson, Connecticut's poet laureate, said Wednesday that >>>she had accepted the White House invitation and had planned to >>>wear a silk scarf with peace signs that she commissioned. >>> >>>``I had decided to go because I felt my presence would promote >>>peace,'' she said. >>>Guardian Unlimited ? Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003 >> >>-- >> > > >-- > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Jan 30 23:51:22 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 20:51:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] White House Cancels Poetry Symposium Message-ID: <20030131045122.6D05647C2@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JackTar at aol.com Fri Jan 31 01:57:50 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 01:57:50 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] their story a picture Message-ID: <147.92d11b0.2b6b786e@aol.com> where do they go, when they disappear, not home. they just left here. where did they come from, when they first appeared not home. they just got here. why do they go, why do we stay, what place is so special to call them away. answers so far?too, answers so near, covered by a veil hidden by our fear see them off - gladly! to life's next shift of gears, knowing they're happy though watching our tears they live in our thoughts so, express no regrets, when the story of life closes their test. their story a picture for you to hold dear be thankful forever their brief appearance here duncan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Jan 31 08:44:01 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 07:44:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mrs. Bush cancels Message-ID: Turns out the event I saw Laura Bush hosting on C-Span was a celebration of the Harlem Renaissance. Hence her reading of the Langston Hughes poem. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Jan 31 08:56:03 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 07:56:03 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] More on poetry cancellation Message-ID: More on the poetry flap, with the website of the anti-war poetry included. Paul Lake Forum called off after poets plan to protest By Joseph Curl THE WASHINGTON TIMES ?????The White House has called off a poetry symposium to have been hosted by first lady Laura Bush after one poet sought to use the event to protest military action against Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. Top Stories ?????The event, scheduled for Feb. 12, was to celebrate the works of Walt Whitman, Langston Hughes and Emily Dickinson. But one poet who declined the White House's invitation sent an e-mail to other invitees and poets asking them to "make February 12 a day of Poetry Against the War." ?????"We will compile an anthology of protest to be presented to the White House on that afternoon," read the e-mail from Sam Hamill, a poet and editor of the Copper Canyon Press in Port Townsend, Wash. ?????One of the poets who had accepted the first lady's invitation to the "White House Symposium on Poetry and the American Voice" forwarded the message to the first lady's office, which promptly postponed the event. ?????"It came to the attention of the first lady's office that some invited guests want to turn what is intended to be a literary event into a political forum," Mrs. Bush's office said in a statement. ?????"While Mrs. Bush understands the right of all Americans to express their political views, this event was designed to celebrate poetry." ?????The first lady's office said the poetry event will be rescheduled, but it did not provide a date or say whether the guest list would be revised. ?????Mr. Hamill ? a Zen Buddhist who ran for the California State Assembly in 1968 on an anti-war, socialist ticket and once worked on the Eugene McCarthy presidential campaign ? said he was a bit surprised when he received an invitation to the first lady's event. ?????"I think it tells you a lot about White House intelligence, doesn't it?" said Mr. Hamill, noting that he has been in and out of liberal social activism all his life and "never for things the Republican Party would likely approve of." ?????"How they got me is beyond me." ?????The poet said the White House advance team should have known about his background and predicted that "somebody's going to get fired over this." ?????Mrs. Bush, a former librarian who has made teaching and early-childhood development her signature issues, has held three White House symposiums to salute America's authors. The gatherings in the East Wing are usually lively affairs with discussions of literature and its effect on society. ?????The symposium on Hughes, Dickinson and Whitman ? often called America's greatest Civil War poet ? drew little attention until Mr. Hamill sent his e-mail soliciting anti-war poems or statements. ?????The e-mail to "friends and fellow poets" ? sent Sunday afternoon ? was titled "An Open Letter from Sam Hamill." ?????"When I picked up my mail and saw the letter marked 'The White House,' I felt no joy. Rather I was overcome by a kind of nausea as I read the card enclosed: Laura Bush requests the pleasure of your company," said the e-mail. ?????"Only the day before I had read a lengthy report on George Bush's proposed 'Shock and Awe' attack on Iraq, calling for saturation bombing that would be like the firebombing of Dresden or Tokyo, killing countless innocent civilians." ?????Mr. Hamill said the Iraq crisis can be resolved by letting the United Nations complete its inspections and said President Bush has yet to convince the world that war is the "only possible alternative." ?????He said he hoped to reconstitute an anti-war movement like the one organized to oppose the Vietnam War. He asked "every poet to speak up for the conscience of our country and lend his or her name to our petition against this war" and to pass along the e-mail to "any poets you know." ?????Mr. Hamill said he had expected to get a few dozen responses. He has gotten more than 2,000 so far, including contributions from famed beat poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti; W.S. Merwin, Pulitzer Prize winner and the former chancellor of the Academy of American Poets; Hayden Carruth, winner of the National Book Award; and Yusef Komunyakaa, who wrote poetry while serving in the Army in Vietnam and won the Pulitzer Prize for poetry in 1994. ?????Yesterday, he posted some of the submissions on a Web site (www.poetsagainstthewar.org). All responses will be posted by Feb. 3, he said. ?????Mr. Hamill said the responses have "honored a long and rich tradition of thoughtful and moral opposition by poets and other artists to senseless and murderous policies, including those of our own government." ?????In one submission, poet Marilyn Hacker wrote: ?????"No hope from youthful pacifists, elderly ?????anarchists; no solutions from diplomats. ?????Men maddened with revealed religion ?????murder their neighbors with righteous fervor, ?????while, claiming they're 'defending democracy,' ?????our homespun junta exports the war machine. ?????They, too, have daily prayer-meetings, ?????photo-op-perfect for tame reporters." ????? ?????In his own poem ? "State of the Union, 2003" ? Mr. Hamill wrote: ????? ?????"I have no god, but have seen the children praying ?????for it to stop. They pray to different gods. ?????The news is all old news again, repeated ?????like a bad habit, cheap tobacco, the social lie." ????? ?????Marilyn Nelson, Connecticut's poet laureate, said she had accepted her invitation to the poetry symposium and criticized the White House for trying to silence the voice of American artists. ?????"I had decided to go because I felt my presence would promote peace," she said. ?????"I had commissioned a fabric artist for a silk scarf with peace signs painted on it. I thought just by going there and shaking Mrs. Bush's hand and being available for the photo ops, my scarf would make a statement," she said. ?????White House invitations have inspired anti-war protests before. In 1965, poet Robert Lowell refused to attend a White House arts festival, citing opposition to the Vietnam War. In 1968, at a White House luncheon hosted by Lady Bird Johnson, guest and singer Eartha Kitt publicly voiced her opposition to the same war. ?????At a 1972 White House dinner, a member of the Ray Conniff Singers, Carole Feraci, held up a banner reading, "Stop the Killing." --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Jan 31 09:17:54 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 06:17:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] White House Cancels Poetry Symposium Message-ID: <20030131141754.CEBFA42EC@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Jan 31 09:23:53 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:23:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia confirmed Message-ID: >From the Baltimore Sun Dana Goioia to head the NEA ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally published January 31, 2003 Dana Gioia, a National Book Award-winning poet and businessman, will come to Washington early next month to head the National Endowment for the Arts. Gioia's appointment was confirmed unanimously by the U.S. Senate on Wednesday, a year to the day his predecessor, Michael P. Hammond, died unexpectedly after just one week on the job. "I am honored by the Senate's vote of confirmation. Now I am eager to get started," Gioia said in a news release. "Leading the National Endowment for the Arts is a great privilege and an enormous responsibility. Both the arts and arts education face many challenges at present, and the Endowment has much to do." A native Californian, Gioia, 52, comes from a blue-collar background. His Italian father drove a taxicab and owned a shoe store; his Mexican mother once worked as a telephone operator. Gioia was the first member of his family to attend college. He earned a master's degree in comparative literature from Harvard in 1975 and an MBA from Stanford University in 1977. To support his writing, Gioia worked for 15 years for General Foods, eventually as vice president of marketing. His collection Interrogations at Noon, one of three full-length books of poetry, won the 2002 American Book Award. Gioia is at least somewhat familiar with Baltimore - he was a visiting professor in 1992 at Johns Hopkins University. He is currently in California with his wife and two sons, where he is completing a book of literary essays and an opera libretto. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From elemenope at icubed.com Thu Jan 30 23:39:20 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:39:20 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laura Bush Discovers The RadLibs In-Reply-To: <20030131170031.6036F10126@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <20030131170031.6036F10126@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: . I Stand With The First Lady I Stand with The Statue of Liberty A crowd of poets waving their poems Is merely a crowd waving its fists - And not one swung at Saddam, Reciting his own verses from a tyrant's balustrade, Looking on, chortling, punctuating, remunerating Their seditions with his suicide checks and shot gun. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: