From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 1 00:13:56 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 00:13:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Movements of the Nazis In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030331221608.01a59eb8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: By Godwin's law, this thread is over and Gudding must retire.;-) Of course, I don't expect that. On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 11:25 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > "I would gladly welcome the intervention of the list owners to stop > all polemical posting on this war." -- Mike Snider > > "Always we need the audacity to speak for more freedom, more > imagination, more poetry with all its meanings. As we go deeper into > conflict, we shall find ourselves more constrained, the repressive > codes will turn to iron. More and more we shall need to be free in our > beliefs..." -- Muriel Ruykeyser, The Life of Poetry, 1949. > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things > they misname empire; and where they make > a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus > > > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790 > office 309.438.5284 > > http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 1 00:21:55 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 00:21:55 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Memorial--Rbt. Morgan Message-ID: In a message dated 3/31/2003 10:39:50 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > Yes, equally wonderful and very different. I often bring the two poems in > to an introductory poetry writing class and ask students which poem is > "better." Always provokes a lively discussion, though usually Komunyakaa > "wins"--probably because he makes his own status as veteran part of the > poem. Students often want to know whether Morgan served in Vietnam or > not--which I actually don't know. But his poem doesn't make any claims > based on his own biography, and students can take that to be a distancing > point of view, unfortunately. Karl Shapiro also wrote a pretty good poem about the memorial wall, but I can't locate it right now. Maybe someone else can. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 1 00:23:40 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 00:23:40 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Memorial--Rbt. Morgan Message-ID: <16a.1c8a17b5.2bba7c5c@cs.com> In a message dated 3/31/2003 10:53:02 PM Central Standard Time, wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: > David Graham wrote: > > Students often want to know whether Morgan served in Vietnam or > >not--which I actually don't know. > > No, I don't think he was ever in the military. He was already teaching > at Cornell in the last years of the war--he was my undergrad advisor, > which took no small patience. And he was quite young then. Terrific > poet and teacher. Wish I had more occasion to go to Ithaca &see him. > > Wendy > Komunyakaa was, I believe, an Army photo-journalist--which, of course, doesn't diminish his value as a witness (just as John Balaban's non-combantant status doesn't). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 00:49:22 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:49:22 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Alan Sondheim Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030331225836.01b106d0@mail.ilstu.edu> Hate America! If you think I hate America, I hate America! I hate America but I will not leave America! If you think I'm anti-American, I'm anti-American! I am anti-American but I will not leave America! Its citizens are denied health care! Its citizens are dying alone and in poverty! Its citizens are denied decent education! Racism is rampant in America! America is a war-mongering fundamentalist country! America is a most violent country! America is leading the planet to World War III! America thinks there are winners and losers! America thinks freedom is American freedom! America thinks liberty is American liberty! America thinks commerce is American commerce! America thinks love it or leave it! America thinks force is always the answer! America thinks the world is American! America hates anyone who disagrees! America is economically bloated! America pollutes! America ignores international treaties! America ignores humanity! Hate hate hate hate hate! Hate hate hate hate hate! Hate hate hate hate hate! Hate hate hate hate hate! Hate hate hate hate hate! I hate America but I will remain in America! -- Alan Sondheim From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 00:51:11 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:51:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Memorial--Rbt. Morgan In-Reply-To: <16a.1c8a17b5.2bba7c5c@cs.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030331235000.01ab2b10@mail.ilstu.edu> >> >>No, I don't think he was ever in the military. He was already teaching >>at Cornell in the last years of the war--he was my undergrad advisor, >>which took no small patience. And he was quite young then. Terrific >>poet and teacher. Wish I had more occasion to go to Ithaca &see him. Bob was my teacher at Cornell. He did not serve in the military. If you're going to Ithaca to see him this semester, he ain't there. He's at Duke this sem. Gabe _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From wjbat at conncoll.edu Tue Apr 1 00:57:48 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 00:57:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Memorial--Rbt. Morgan In-Reply-To: <16a.1c8a17b5.2bba7c5c@cs.com> Message-ID: <20030401005748.021925@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> wrote: >Komunyakaa was, I believe, an Army photo-journalist--which, of course, >doesn't diminish his value as a witness (just as John Balaban's >non-combantant status doesn't). Sam, Our students might be leaning now that you don't have to be a soldier to know something about what it's like to be at war. And of course some of our students are there. Wendy, who's going to a reading by Billy Collins at the Coast Guard Academy here, having been warned she'll be carded and searched, Go figure. ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu The wall between where we are? and the Self is called the mind. --S. J. Bharat From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 1 01:04:54 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 01:04:54 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Alan Sondheim Message-ID: <134.1d9986d5.2bba8606@cs.com> In a message dated 3/31/2003 11:52:16 PM Central Standard Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > z.cath.vt.edu > Received from Internet: > > > > Hate America! > > > If you think I hate America, I hate America! > I hate America but I will not leave America! > If you think I'm anti-American, I'm anti-American! > I am anti-American but I will not leave America! > Its citizens are denied health care! > Its citizens are dying alone and in poverty! > Its citizens are denied decent education! > Racism is rampant in America! > America is a war-mongering fundamentalist country! > America is a most violent country! > America is leading the planet to World War III! > America thinks there are winners and losers! > America thinks freedom is American freedom! > America thinks liberty is American liberty! > America thinks commerce is American commerce! > America thinks love it or leave it! > America thinks force is always the answer! > America thinks the world is American! > America hates anyone who disagrees! > America is economically bloated! > America pollutes! > America ignores international treaties! > America ignores humanity! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > I hate America but I will remain in America! > > -- Alan Sondheim > I still prefer "Bring in the Clowns." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 1 01:07:09 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 01:07:09 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Memorial--Rbt. Morgan Message-ID: <57.1a859c6d.2bba868d@cs.com> In a message dated 3/31/2003 11:58:56 PM Central Standard Time, wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: > Sam, > Our students might be leaning now that you don't have to be a soldier to > know something about what it's like to be at war. And of course some of > our students are there. > > Wendy, who's going to a reading by Billy Collins at the Coast Guard > Academy here, having been warned she'll be carded and searched, Go figure. > ------------------------ Of course not. The greatest American war literature was written by non-combatants--Crane and Whitman. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 01:07:33 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 00:07:33 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Labour MP George Galloway Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401000647.01a571b0@mail.ilstu.edu> "Given that I believe this invasion is illegal, it follows that the only people fighting legally are the Iraqis, who are defending their country. "The best thing British troops can do is to refuse to obey illegal orders." http://www.itv.com/news/2105567.html _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From JackTar at aol.com Tue Apr 1 01:15:15 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 01:15:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Alan Sondheim Message-ID: <84.da06a7d.2bba8873@aol.com> In a message dated 4/1/2003 12:52:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > Hate hate hate hate hate! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > I hate America but I will remain in America! > > -- Alan Sondheim > > > sounds like a valium is in order. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 1 01:18:44 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 01:18:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Alan Sondheim Message-ID: <1e0.5c368bd.2bba8944@cs.com> In a message dated 4/1/2003 12:16:11 AM Central Standard Time, JackTar at aol.com writes: > > >> Hate hate hate hate hate! >> Hate hate hate hate hate! >> Hate hate hate hate hate! >> Hate hate hate hate hate! >> Hate hate hate hate hate! >> I hate America but I will remain in America! >> >> -- Alan Sondheim >> >> >> > > sounds like a valium is in order. Search and replace "hate" with "love" and change a few affirmative statements to negatives and you've got a Pat Robertson sermon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB at aol.com Tue Apr 1 01:37:32 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 01:37:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Side Bar Message-ID: <1ca.6724073.2bba8dac@aol.com> Greetings all: I'm putting together a philosophy of teaching section for my syllabus and would like to ask if anyone has quotes or gems about the teaching of writing, or about learning (in general). I found this one in the Writers Chronicle yesterday morning from Ren? Descartes, more famous for his "I think, therefore I am," statement: ""If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." Thanks in advance. Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 01:50:32 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 00:50:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another "Good and Noble" Soldier Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401004728.01abec38@mail.ilstu.edu> "The Iraqis are sick people and we are the chemotherapy," said Corporal Ryan Dupre. "I am starting to hate this country. Wait till I get hold of a friggin' Iraqi. No, I won't get hold of one. I'll just kill him." http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2479.htm ANOTHER DOZEN CIVILIANS FIRED UPON AND MURDERED _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From sellwein at hotmail.com Tue Apr 1 02:59:27 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 02:59:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Yehuda Amichai, "Life is Called Life" Message-ID: This is beautiful language. Deborah Russell http://groups.msn.com/ParallelsStudio Life is Called Life 1. Life is called life as the west wind is called west, though it blows toward the east. The way death is called death, though it blows toward life. In a cemetery we remember the living, and outside it-- the dead. As the past leads to the future though it's called past, as you to me and I to you in love though I'm called by my name and you by yours. As spring provides for summer, as summer beds down into fall. As my thoughts will be till the end of my life. That is the banner of my God. 2. Each day now I hear the circles of my life closing, the click of buckles, like kisses of conciliation and love. And these lend a rhythm to the final version of my life. Things that were lost long ago find their places now, like billiard balls, each one into its pocket. Contracts and prophecies are fulfilled, prophecies true and false. I come upon the missing lids of pots and pans that stayed uncovered, I find the matching pieces, like an ancient contract of clay, broken into two parts, unequal but fitting together. Like a mosaic, like a jigsaw puzzle, children searching for the missing pieces. When the game is over, the picure will be whole. Complete. --Yehuda Amichai tr. Chana Block and Chana Kronfeld in *Tin House* Vol. 1, No. 3 Winter 1999 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From MillB at aol.com Tue Apr 1 03:20:37 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 03:20:37 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalism Message-ID: I have a dilemma. I'm applying for a creative writing teaching job at a visual arts college. Although I am a writer, my father was a working artist and when I was a child, he taught art at college, and had a studio in our home. One of my first jobs was as an artist model when I was in college, and my long time boyfriend is a figurative artist who sometimes teaches in an MFA program. My whole life I've been a writer, surrounded by artists. All things considered (publications, teaching experience, MFAs), I think my unique background in the arts would be an asset for teaching at an arts college; however, I am stumped. While I honestly think that my association with the visual arts world sets me apart from other candidates, every draft of my letter of application ends up sounding unprofessional (when I mention my boyfriend or father). How can I use my "artistic background" effectively? Should I just bite the bullet and leave it out? Or is there a way to package unconventional experience in a professional manner? I would like to at least mention it in one short sentence. Any suggestions about how to go about it? Thanks, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 1 03:22:07 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:22:07 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] "hussein's dupe" arnett fired for daring to say US govt planshad failed References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030331111038.01a35f90@mail.ilstu.edu> <3E88D4A2.E0F89CC5@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <01b501c2f827$cccbda80$8701a8c0@TRS80> I tend to agree with the recent Slate column that Arnett should have been fired, but not for sitting for an interview with the Iraqi govt, but rather for his continually shallow reporting, general lack of awareness of the context of his reporting, and demonstrated and continued willingness to parrot what he is told as if it were fact, when much of it is propaganda. http://slate.msn.com/id/2080947/ c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 1 03:26:57 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:26:57 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Memorial--Rbt. Morgan References: Message-ID: <020201c2f828$798bf1b0$8701a8c0@TRS80> On Monday, March 31, 2003 7:39 PM, David Graham spake thusly: > A wonderful poem by an underrated poet. It's a shame that this > one has to compete for our attention with the equally wonderful one > by Komunyakaa. Which Komunyakaa poem? c -- Chris Lott From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 1 08:09:50 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 08:09:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Side Bar In-Reply-To: <1ca.6724073.2bba8dac@aol.com> Message-ID: Here (in my sig) is one of my favorites, Mill. Use it in good health. Hal "What, should we get rid of our ignorance, the very substance of our lives, merely in order to understand each other?" --R. P. Blackmur Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard Greetings all: I'm putting together a philosophy of teaching section for my syllabus and would like to ask if anyone has quotes or gems about the teaching of writing, or about learning (in general). I found this one in the Writers Chronicle yesterday morning from Ren? Descartes, more famous for his "I think, therefore I am," statement: ""If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." Thanks in advance. Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 1 08:12:07 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 08:12:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "hussein's dupe" arnett fired for daring to say US govt planshad failed In-Reply-To: <01b501c2f827$cccbda80$8701a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: Don't worry too much about Arnett's being out of work. Seems he's already been hired by London's *Daily Mirror*. Hal "I think I think; therefore I think I am." --Ambrose Bierce Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { I tend to agree with the recent Slate column that Arnett should have been { fired, but not for sitting for an interview with the Iraqi govt, but rather { for his continually shallow reporting, general lack of awareness of the { context of his reporting, and demonstrated and continued willingness to { parrot what he is told as if it were fact, when much of it is propaganda. { { http://slate.msn.com/id/2080947/ { { c { -- { Chris Lott { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Apr 1 08:51:32 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 15:51:32 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalism References: Message-ID: <015001c2f855$ce39d380$2e737450@anny> yes, (name of your father), the well-known artist, exhibits: .... ... also my father (name of your boyfriend), multimedia artist (or whatever), exhibits: ... ... my partner plus, if you have some reviews you did for them, include the publication or date of newspaper and such, Mary de Rachewiltz, daughter of Ezra Pound, poet herself, wrote Discretions, a beautiful autobiography, where she sometimes says my father, sometimes Ezra Pound. Such experiences are valuable and I think they should stand out, lucky you. ----- Original Message ----- From: MillB at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:20 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalism I have a dilemma. I'm applying for a creative writing teaching job at a visual arts college. Although I am a writer, my father was a working artist and when I was a child, he taught art at college, and had a studio in our home. One of my first jobs was as an artist model when I was in college, and my long time boyfriend is a figurative artist who sometimes teaches in an MFA program. My whole life I've been a writer, surrounded by artists. All things considered (publications, teaching experience, MFAs), I think my unique background in the arts would be an asset for teaching at an arts college; however, I am stumped. While I honestly think that my association with the visual arts world sets me apart from other candidates, every draft of my letter of application ends up sounding unprofessional (when I mention my boyfriend or father). How can I use my "artistic background" effectively? Should I just bite the bullet and leave it out? Or is there a way to package unconventional experience in a professional manner? I would like to at least mention it in one short sentence. Any suggestions about how to go about it? Thanks, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Tue Apr 1 09:06:52 2003 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:06:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Quincy Troupe Story Message-ID: <131.1c72439e.2bbaf6fc@aol.com> The following link should get you to the article "Fall From Grace" from _The Chronicle of Higher Education_. This is one of the more comprehensive articles that I've seen in the public press on the Quincy Troupe affair. Some interesting perceptions presented by a variety of people (writer/colleagues of Troupe's at UCSD, other academics, etc.) about the value of formal education/credentials for in the academic workplace. http://chronicle.com/weekly/v49/i30/30a01001.htm Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 1 09:26:59 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:26:59 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalism Message-ID: <193.181da92c.2bbafbb3@cs.com> In a message dated 4/1/2003 2:22:01 AM Central Standard Time, MillB at aol.com writes: > I would like to at least mention it in one short sentence. Any suggestions > about how to go about it? > I'd go whole hog, work the connection for all it's worth. "I feel that I am uniquely qualified for a position at your college, for . . . ." An application letter should have something that'll rise above the generic listing of degrees, publications, and so on. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 1 09:27:41 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:27:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] "hussein's dupe" arnett fired for daring to say US govt pla... Message-ID: <15a.1db7ff91.2bbafbdd@cs.com> In a message dated 4/1/2003 2:25:15 AM Central Standard Time, chris at chrislott.org writes: > > I tend to agree with the recent Slate column that Arnett should have been > fired, but not for sitting for an interview with the Iraqi govt, but rather > for his continually shallow reporting, general lack of awareness of the > context of his reporting, and demonstrated and continued willingness to > parrot what he is told as if it were fact, when much of it is propaganda. Walter Cronkite has an interesting editorial on Arnett in today's New York Times. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 1 09:28:06 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:28:06 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Memorial--Rbt. Morgan Message-ID: <12b.26c2a938.2bbafbf6@cs.com> In a message dated 4/1/2003 2:30:45 AM Central Standard Time, chris at chrislott.org writes: > >A wonderful poem by an underrated poet. It's a shame that this > >one has to compete for our attention with the equally wonderful one > >by Komunyakaa. > > Which Komunyakaa poem? "Facing It." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 1 09:30:54 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:30:54 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Quincy Troupe Story Message-ID: <12e.26e707b8.2bbafc9e@cs.com> In a message dated 4/1/2003 8:08:37 AM Central Standard Time, Thom424 at aol.com writes: > http://chronicle.com/weekly/v49/i30/30a01001.htm This requires registration and login, unfortunately. What is the date of the issue? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Thom424 at aol.com Tue Apr 1 09:41:56 2003 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:41:56 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Chronicle article: Fall From Grace Message-ID: <1a6.127d964d.2bbaff34@aol.com> Sam tells me the April 4, 2003 _Chronicle_ article on Troupe requires registration & password. So--heads up: I'm sending along the full text of the longish article. I apologize if this junks up your mailboxes this morning. Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: thom424 at aol.com Subject: Chronicle article: Fall From Grace Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:36:09 -0500 (EST) Size: 26572 URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 1 09:40:34 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:40:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "At the Roadblock" Message-ID: At the Roadblock Vastly abandoned, the eskers and terminal moraines of southern Finland made for diverse and enjoyable reading. Edmund, by comparison, is a bore, and, sadly, only one of many there. Almost seamlessly, snow cleared by ploughing, they wind across the glaciated countryside, tunneling, sometimes, under the ice, becoming more or less filled with wash when the ice melts. Positively slashing, among the occasionally puzzled relics of doorsteps and yardworks, setting aside completely, push having come to shove, their pre- conceptions of the shifting nature surrounding them. Ultimately redoubtable, the double-minded farmer gives rise to fear, even to dread, and is thus to be respected, at least for the moment, beyond his (or her) ability to do us severe and actual damage. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 1 09:56:59 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 09:56:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030331192949.01ac4190@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3E89626B.28618.30C859@localhost> On 31 Mar 2003 at 19:37, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > 2 instances of Mike Snider's "good and honorable" soldiers at work today: > http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12794375&method=full&siteid=50143 > "An investigation was launched tonight after US troops opened fire on a van > carrying 13 Iraqi women and children, killing seven and wounding two others." More rhetorical trickery by Gabe Gudding -- he quotes the result but not the preliminaries. Here, from his own preferred source, is the rest of the story: "An investigation was launched tonight after US troops opened fire on a van carrying 13 Iraqi women and children, killing seven and wounding two others. A military spokesman said the incident happened as the vehicle approached an Army checkpoint on a highway near Najaf in southern Iraq. American soldiers had asked for the vehicle to stop and fired warning shots. When the driver failed to respond to their request shots were fired into the van's engine. As it continued to move towards the checkpoint, soldiers fired into the passenger side of the van. Seven of the van's civilian occupants were killed and two injured. The remaining four were unharmed." Gabe, fiction by selection is as pernicious as fiction by makin' stuff up; and here you're clearly trying to say, once again, that the US soldiers, with your scare quotes around "good and honorable", are neither good nor honorable merely by leaving out the bits that don't agree with your agenda. The soldiers fired warning shots and they fired into the engine of the van before firing into the van itself. In a war situation civilians have to stop at checkpoints -- and where suicide attacks of civilian vehicles on military targets has happened, civilians cannot be surprised if they are suspect when they don't stop their vehicles as ordered. War is a terrible thing, Gabe, and I was opposed to starting this one -- but your attempts to say that the US soldiers are neither good nor honorable in their tasks so far seems at this point far-fetched fantasy based on rhetorical trickery. You're undermining your own case by trying to create scandals by rhetorical trickery. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 1 09:56:59 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 09:56:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] is Hussein's dupe In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030331143510.019df160@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <3E885654.21926.CE1B16@localhost> Message-ID: <3E89626B.2138.30C76D@localhost> On 31 Mar 2003 at 14:38, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > if you're seriously interested in avoiding ad hominem, please remove my > name from the subject heading<< First, I don't see your name in the subject heading. At my end it says "is Hussein's dupe". Whenever ANYone replies to this subject most email clients will seem to create a sentences "[so-andso] is Hussein's dupe", I guess, but it happens to us all, not just to you, so far as I can see. Second, remove it yourself. My experience in these groups is that people are forever changing the subject heading slightly or completely as in "[was such and such a thread]". Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 10:19:39 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 09:19:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] good and honorable bombing of hospital Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401091746.01b59a50@mail.ilstu.edu> http://truthout.org/docs_03/040203B.shtml UK forces are calling US forces barbarians. UK forces are beginning to object to indiscriminate killing done by US forces. UK MP calls on UK forces to disobey illegal orders. _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From davidhoward at xtra.co.nz Tue Apr 1 10:30:09 2003 From: davidhoward at xtra.co.nz (David Howard & Kim Pieters) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 03:30:09 +1200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Professionalism References: <200304011423.h31EN8ST014682@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <003001c2f863$a9c1db20$f306fea9@girly> Mill, your outline to this group provides you with the bones of the approach; it edits down to a colloquial: 'My whole life I've been a writer, surrounded by artists. My father was a working artist and when I was a child, he taught art at college, and had a studio in our home. When I was in college I worked as an artist model, and my partner is a figurative artist who teaches in an MFA program.' I've removed qualifiers like 'sometimes teaches' (so he teaches) such that it suffices for inclusion in a covering letter. In your full resume break down the above experience chronologically. Give full names, places etc tagged by dates. 'Partner' sounds more professional than boyfriend, even if you have different addresses; list any 'professional associations': Have you assisted at launches, with media-releases, reviews, in packing work for galleries/clients? Then detail these - but not as favours, rather as professional experience. Good luck. David Howard From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 1 10:38:16 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 10:38:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <014b01c2f7fe$5cdd5c40$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3E896C18.2800.569489@localhost> Daniel Zimmerman: > As for the bombed farm, I do not doubt for a minute that the pilot(s) did > not target civilians, but that matters very little if at all to those > civilians-or to the increasingly restive Muslim world. Actions have > consequences. Mistakes happen in war. If the government decides, as a matter > of policy, to wage war, mistakes become-however regrettably-an inescapable, > de facto part of that policy. Therefore, to insist that "mistakes are not > policy" constitutes a red herring.<< No, it does not when the distinction that is being drawn is one between those governments who acknowledge and regret that such mistakes may happen as mistakes, and authorities whose policies are to target civilians, or use civilians, to kill. The red herring, if there is one in this discussion, inheres in Gabe's attempts to say that WHAT is happening can be separated from WHY. Gabe holds, apparently, that any dead civilian anywhere is a matter for his, and our, outrage -- and it is, it is -- but his position seems to be that there is no difference between killing civilians as a matter of policy on the one hand, and as a matter of unintended consequences of combat, on the other. You, Daniel, go even further -- you are saying that that distinction is itself a fallacy, a red herring, because, it seems, you want to say that there are no unintended consequences -- that the policy- makers, in deciding on the policy of invasion, have ipso facto decided on a policy of killing civilians because they know, or ought to know, that one cannot conduct combat without killing some civilians. Is that your position? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 1 10:38:16 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 10:38:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030331204120.01a0cd70@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <2E783300-63E6-11D7-924F-000393C29586@mac.com> Message-ID: <3E896C18.5404.5693B8@localhost> Gabe: > Amazing how Mike Snider keeps referring to WHO the soldiers are and not > WHAT they do: the WHO vs. the WHAT. The WHO (the stuff they think [as if he > knew] and the kind of character they ALL have [as if you knew]. As if he > knew -- and as if it mattered.<< Well, I'm not sure that Mike Snider is claiming that all US soldiers are saints, as you seem to be trying to imply. But I think your accusation that the US military, and the individual soldiers in the military, are deliberately attempting to target and kill civilians as a matter of policy has been refuted by Mike's, and my, points. The disingenuousness of your claims and arguments is transparent, Gabe. Gabe: > And while he does this he ignores the WHAT. The materiality of WHAT they've > done and are doing. > They are killing innocent civilians in an illegal act of aggression > recognized by the world community as illegal -- and they are doing so at > the behest of a rogue American regime -- a regime that is now threatening > Syria and Iran. And they are doing this in a country that does not want > them there.< Well, your claim that the invasion of Iraq is an illegal act of aggression is certainly debatable, as is the notion that the Bush Administration is a "rogue regime". Though I was opposed to starting the invasion as it was started, and was opposed to Bush as president, and opposed to the conniving way that Bush became president, nonetheless it seems to me that the hysterical tone you employ, and the disingenuousness of the examples you offer, demonstrate that the position you put forward is agenda-driven and not an attempt to make reasonable objections. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 1 11:02:18 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 11:02:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Alan Sondheim In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030331225836.01b106d0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3E8971BA.27289.6C94CE@localhost> On 31 Mar 2003 at 23:49, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Hate America! > If you think I hate America, I hate America! > I hate America but I will not leave America! ... You've Got To Be Taught Oscar Hammerstein II You've got be taught to hate and fear You've got to be taught from year to year It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear. You've got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught to be afraid Of people whose eyes are oddly made And people whose skin is a different shade You've got to be carefully taught You've got to be taught before it's too late Before you are six or seven or eight To hate all the people your relatives hate You've got to be carefully taught! You've got to be carefully taught. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 1 11:02:17 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 11:02:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Movements of the Nazis In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030331221608.01a59eb8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3E8971B9.8127.6C93F1@localhost> Mike Snider: > > "I would gladly welcome the intervention of the list owners to stop > > all polemical posting on this war." Gabriel Gudding: > > "Always we need the audacity to speak for more freedom, more > > imagination, more poetry with all its meanings. As we go deeper into > > conflict, we shall find ourselves more constrained, the repressive > > codes will turn to iron. More and more we shall need to be free in our > > beliefs..." -- Muriel Ruykeyser, The Life of Poetry, 1949. BRAAAAACK! Mandel Rule violation! The Mandel Rule states that the first participant to compare his or her interlocutor, or position, to that of Hitler or the Nazis, loses. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 1 11:15:59 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 11:15:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gabriel Gudding is Hussein's dupe In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030331124621.01a29f68@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <3E884495.19570.88C8F6@localhost> Message-ID: <3E8974EF.22302.791D24@localhost> On 31 Mar 2003 at 12:48, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Marcus, the "merits" of a post (yours) that reads, in its entirety below, > are kind of hard to find. > > "> Or else a liar. > > Perhaps "disingenuous" is a better term." -- Marcus Bales > I expanded on it later. But one imagines that it is better to be disingenuous than a liar. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 11:08:45 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 10:08:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] good and honorable bombing of residential section of the city of Hill Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401100814.01b83548@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www1.iraqwar.ru/iraq-read_article.php?articleId=1366&lang=en _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 1 11:20:17 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 11:20:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN Message-ID: <8249795.1049214017319.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Tuesday, April 01, 2003, at 10:38AM, Marcus Bales wrote: >Gabe: >> Amazing how Mike Snider keeps referring to WHO the soldiers are and not >> WHAT they do: the WHO vs. the WHAT. The WHO (the stuff they think [as if he >> knew] and the kind of character they ALL have [as if you knew]. As if he >> knew -- and as if it mattered.<< > >Well, I'm not sure that Mike Snider is claiming that all US soldiers >are saints, as you seem to be trying to imply. In fact, I doubt any of them are saints, and it's no doubt true that some are not very nice people at all, and others will make stupid mistakes in anger and fatigue, and civilians will be needlessly killed. But the policy of the coalition governments and the policy and training of their troops is intended to minimize such killing, and when it happens it is investigated and those guilty will, we all hope, be appropriately punished. That is fundamentally different from the policy and training of the Iraqi government and its armed forces, who try to create occasions for the deaths of civilians in order to score propaganda points. And the difference matters, Gabe, as Marcus and I have been arguing. I do not support George Bush--his arrogance and ineptitude, matched point for point by Jaques Chirac, have made an avoidable war inevitable by preventing any meaningful action in the Security Council. But that having happened, I believe the US/UK and other coalition members had no choice but to disarm Iraq by force. I hope that it's over quickly, and that the people of the US understand how stupidly we wandered into this and elect someone else next year. From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 1 11:23:27 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 11:23:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Movements of the Nazis Message-ID: <1308247.1049214207336.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Tuesday, April 01, 2003, at 11:02AM, Marcus Bales wrote: >Mike Snider: >> > "I would gladly welcome the intervention of the list owners to stop >> > all polemical posting on this war." > >Gabriel Gudding: >> > "Always we need the audacity to speak for more freedom, more >> > imagination, more poetry with all its meanings. As we go deeper into >> > conflict, we shall find ourselves more constrained, the repressive >> > codes will turn to iron. More and more we shall need to be free in our >> > beliefs..." -- Muriel Ruykeyser, The Life of Poetry, 1949. > >BRAAAAACK! Mandel Rule violation! The Mandel Rule states that the >first participant to compare his or her interlocutor, or position, to >that of Hitler or the Nazis, loses. > On UseNet that's Godwin's Law: http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/faqs/godwin.html a snippet: :Godwin's Law: /prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 1 11:34:07 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 11:34:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Godwin on Godwin's Law Message-ID: <3596762.1049214847163.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html Apparently it was deliberately created as a counter-meme (a kind of mental antibody) to trivializibg accusations of Nazism. From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Apr 1 11:42:37 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 10:42:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Memorial--Komunyakaa Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F19@mail.ripon.edu> For those who don't have this poem at their fingertips--- Facing It My black face fades, hiding inside the black granite. I said I wouldn't, dammit: No tears. I'm stone. I'm flesh. My clouded reflection eyes me like a bird of prey, the profile of night slanted against morning. I turn this way--the stone lets me go. I turn that way--I'm inside the Vietnam Veterans Memorial again, depending on the light to make a difference. I go down the 58,022 names, half-expecting to find my own in letters like smoke. I touch the name Andrew Johnson; I see the booby trap's white flash. Names shimmer on a woman's blouse but when she walks away the names stay on the wall. Brushstrokes flash, a red bird's wings cutting across my stare. The sky. A plane in the sky. A white vet's image floats closer to me, then his pale eyes look through mine. I'm a window. He's lost his right arm inside the stone. In the black mirror a woman's trying to erase names: No, she's brushing a boy's hair. -- Yusef Komunyakaa ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: Chris Lott > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2003 2:26 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Memorial--Rbt. Morgan > > On Monday, March 31, 2003 7:39 PM, David Graham spake > thusly: > > > A wonderful poem by an underrated poet. It's a shame that this > > one has to compete for our attention with the equally wonderful one > > by Komunyakaa. > > Which Komunyakaa poem? > > c > -- > Chris Lott > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From MillB at aol.com Tue Apr 1 11:44:41 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 11:44:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Quincy Troupe Message-ID: <180.180f3d77.2bbb1bf9@aol.com> Greetings: Two weeks ago I had the opportunity to hear Quincy Troupe read at the Los Angeles County Art Museum, an event that was supposed to be held in a large auditorium, had been shrunk to a small conference room. It was the start of the war in Iraq, so I guess I figured that had something to do with the small turnout. I have to admit that while I primarily went to hear a talk about art and poetry, in a gossipy-mean way, I was also curious about whether "the lie" would be brought up. What is unethical is not that Troupe taught at a university without a college degree, but that he lied about it. Day after day, he was in class, encouraging students to read, to turn in papers, to be on time, to create original work. In grad school, I had a couple of writing teachers without "academic qualifications." They had published books, won awards. . .they often "used" their lack of formal education in wonderful ways--sharing lessons about being self-taught, struggling, and triumphing anyway. They were honest and successful instructors. Think of all that Troupe missed. The stories he could have told. Was he everyday, checking his back, all those 26 years? I wouldn't want to live like that. I also question his motives. It wasn't as if Troupe longed to teach but couldn't because of a glitch in the system; all he wanted to do was make more money! I can imagine two possible scenarios--that would have ethically gotten him out of the situation: 1) if he'd gone back to school (little by little during the 26 years he was teaching) and gotten that degree, so that when his lie came out (and lies always come out), he could have come clean. Another possibility is when he was at his peak, he could have told the truth. Maybe he might have lost the San Diego job. Maybe not. But the timing would have been right, then San Diego had hired him, Troupe would have known that they hired him for his poetry and his teaching skills. Not a bogus degree. Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 11:44:58 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 10:44:58 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Christian's Duty Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401104408.011f7ef8@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.thenation.com/outrage/ -- please read ""Pray that the President and his advisers will recognize their divine appointment ..." It includes some helpfully illuminating scripture, Romans 13:1: "Every person is to be in subjugation to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God." _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Apr 1 11:51:30 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 10:51:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Quincy Troupe Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F1A@mail.ripon.edu> I'm sorry: my eyes glazed over in reading about the Quincy Troupe affair--right after I learned that he was earning $141K in salary. I believe that's more than the president of my college earns. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 1 11:52:56 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 07:52:56 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Quincy Troupe References: <180.180f3d77.2bbb1bf9@aol.com> Message-ID: <027101c2f86f$29607200$8701a8c0@TRS80> The only thing the whole incident really exposes is the stupidity of using such meaningless measuring sticks as a qualification for positions. Unlike what my mommy might have told me, lies don't grow over time. It started as a small lie, it remains small, and there seems to be no question that he did his job well. To be fired over it is disproportionate. That the degree, rather than performance, was ever a criterion in the first place is the real shame. Then again, the guy was making 140k per year. I don't think any faculty (and few administrators) here are making that kind of money, which would have been better spent on a good salary for two poets rather than one star. c -- Chris Lott From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 11:53:53 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 10:53:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] from poet Patrick Herron Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401105312.011ebc70@mail.ilstu.edu> > >thanks for continuing to send these articles Gabe. > >I just watched Hearts & Minds again last night. I remeber when I first saw >the movie in 1989 and I thought to myself, "well, thank god America isn't >quite SO stupid any more." But so much of that movie is so incredibly >prophetic and seems so uncannily relevant that I'm simply spooked. America >is ripe for another Vietnam, but this time our leaders are less concerned >with world opinion. World opinion and the Soviet threat kept Nixon from >dropping the Bomb. What's to keep Bush? In Vietnam, soldiers could not >tell civilians apart from VC, so they indiscriminately pulled the trigger on >millions and burned the homes of millions more. And eventually the policy >of genocide became official & rewarded US policy (Operation Phoenix). Our >boys were "simply" doing everything they could to keep from getting harmed >themselves, and if policy helped them in that effort, well, then, they took >advantage of it. Iraq already has the warning signs: the population might >have internal problems but it would rather have those problems than an >outside invading force. Our leadership is constantly lying to the public. >Etc. Etc. > >One military lesson that should have been learned is that there's a critical >threshold of terror. Cross it and you can *never* win the hearts and minds >of those in the land you are invading. They will want you gone no matter >the price. Another lesson is that a country that's an order of magnitude >smaller than us can successfully repel a US invasion simply on the twin >bases of resolve and numbers, and no technology can completely overcome an >entire nation armed in defiance. > >The Vietnamese proved they would rather die than be occupied. Why does the >US want to find out the same thing about Iraqis? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Gabriel Gudding [mailto:gmguddi at ilstu.edu] >Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 3:43 AM >To: ImitaPo Memebers >Subject: [imitationpoetics] dangers of protesting and truth-telling > > >Imitation Poetics >ImitationPoetics at listserv.unc.edu >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > >nbc's arnette fired for telling the truth: >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57979-2003Mar31.html > >And at this poll 29 percent of responders say he should be tried in a >military court: >http://www.startribune.com/fungames/ipoll/tabulate.php?questionID=552&templa >te=default > >And just yesterday on "KDKA-TV" a poll was askign whether "peace rallies >should be allowed to continue" now that the US is at war. > >And here's an article that hints that a Columbia professor should be gunned >down for making what are considered anti-american comments at a peace >rally: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/72152.htm > >And here a Louisiana dj asks his listeners to shout profanity at protesters >and says they should be shot in the head -- some signs eve declar that >protesters should be shot in the head: > >"Along with plenty of American flags, several of the signs they carried >demeaned the marchers: "Protesting this war while our troops are being >killed is equal to treason," read one. "You should all be shot."" // >"Richard Condon, a morning show host for rock station KOOJ, said he wanted >the hecklers to "put these goofballs in their place." >"This has been going on since World War I, and it's the reason they have >the right to feel the way they do," Condon said, pointing at the peace >protesters marching down Stanford toward LSU. >Despite that right, he concluded, "I think these son-of-a-buggers deserve a >bullet in the head." >This followed his proclamation to the crowd at the beach about American >military aims that ended with: "And it's about time we nuked Canada's ass!" >http://theadvocate.com/stories/033003/ira_protest001.shtml > From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 1 11:53:16 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 07:53:16 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Memorial--Komunyakaa References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F19@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <027601c2f86f$3aa6bf60$8701a8c0@TRS80> On Tuesday, April 01, 2003 7:42 AM, Graham, David spake thusly: > For those who don't have this poem at their fingertips--- > > > Facing It Thanks. And wow. c -- Chris Lott From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 12:27:08 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 11:27:08 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] cluster bombs suspected used on residential section Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401112515.011f9938@mail.ilstu.edu> http://sg.news.yahoo.com/030401/1/39o1f.html 48 civilians killed thus far. 310 wounded _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 1 12:51:18 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 12:51:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Quincy Troupe In-Reply-To: <027101c2f86f$29607200$8701a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: Still, Chris, it's stars, not "poets" or administrators that bring in the tuition bucks. It's what we might call the Maya Angelou Syndrome. Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. --Noam Chomsky Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Then again, the guy was making 140k per year. I don't think any faculty (and { few administrators) here are making that kind of money, which would have { been better spent on a good salary for two poets rather than one star. { { c From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 1 13:08:55 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:08:55 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Quincy Troupe References: Message-ID: <005401c2f879$c319bb90$5b15e589@devbox> On Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:51 AM, Halvard Johnson spake thusly: > Still, Chris, it's stars, not "poets" or administrators that bring in > the tuition bucks. It's what we might call the Maya Angelou > Syndrome. True that. Especially when you need to lure in the masses. And we need to be sure to get all those people enrolled and promise them, in the grand American tradition, that they too can be successful poets, novelist and playwrights, regardless of their talent, ambition, or work ethic, because we don't believe in boundaries or talent. We hardly even admit to simply affinity. The brilliance in the system is that there isn't even the risk of a money back guarantee. The happy irony for the observers lies in the fact that for all those that never had what it takes to succeed and never will, the best chance of securing real employment is to finish that degree in the very area for which they are most unsuited. If it were really about the education, I guess, academia would operate like anglers, keeping the big ones and throwing the others back. Instead it operates like one of those bottom-scraping fishing trawlers with the 10 mile nets. It's all about the total mass. c -- Chris Lott From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 1 13:14:14 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:14:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Quincy Troupe In-Reply-To: <005401c2f879$c319bb90$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: { If it were really about the education, I guess, academia would operate like { anglers, keeping the big ones and throwing the others back. Instead it { operates like one of those bottom-scraping fishing trawlers with the 10 mile { nets. It's all about the total mass. Well, I'm not sure about "total mass" (that sounds kinda "Romish"-- as the parlance once went--to me) but it's at least partly about keeping healthy, young Murricans from clamoring for jobs that don't exist--not to mention filing for unemployment benefits. Hal ?Quien es m?s macho--Saddam Hussein o George W. Bush? Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 1 13:32:44 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:32:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Forget about Baghdad Message-ID: Forget about Baghdad. The battle for the Electoral College may be the big one. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ================================= -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- April 1, 2003 A Red-Blue Terror Alert By PAUL KRUGMAN As recriminations fly over Operation Predicted Cakewalk, some commentators look back wistfully to the early post-Sept. 11 era, when ? or so they imagine ? the nation stood united against the terrorist threat. On my beat, that era was brief indeed: less than 48 hours after the atrocity, Congressional Republicans tried to exploit the event to pass a cut in the capital gains tax. But on national security issues, there was at first some real bipartisanship. What happened to that bipartisanship? It fell prey to two enduring prejudices of the right: its deep hostility to nonmilitary government spending, and its exaltation of the "heartland" over the great urban states. You might have expected the events of Sept. 11 to temper the right's opposition to some kinds of domestic spending. After thousands of Americans were killed by men armed only with box cutters, surely everyone would acknowledge that national security involves more than mere military might. But you would have been wrong. In a remarkable recent article titled "The 9/10 President," Jonathan Chait of The New Republic documents how the Bush administration has systematically neglected homeland security since 9/11. In its effort to keep spending down, the administration has repeatedly blocked proposals to enhance security at potential domestic targets like ports and nuclear plants. What Mr. Chait doesn't point out is the extent to which already inadequate antiterrorism spending has been focused on the parts of the country that need it least. I've written before about the myth of the heartland ? roughly speaking, the "red states," which voted for George W. Bush in the 2000 election, as opposed to the "blue states," which voted for Al Gore. The nation's interior is supposedly a place of rugged individualists, unlike the spongers and whiners along the coasts. In reality, of course, rural states are heavily subsidized by urban states. New Jersey pays about $1.50 in federal taxes for every dollar it gets in return; Montana receives about $1.75 in federal spending for every dollar it pays in taxes. Any sensible program of spending on homeland security would at least partly redress this balance. The most natural targets for terrorism lie in or near great metropolitan areas; surely protecting those areas is the highest priority, right? Apparently not. Even in the first months after Sept. 11, Republican lawmakers made it clear that they would not support any major effort to rebuild or even secure New York. And now that anti-urban prejudice has taken statistical form: under the formula the Department of Homeland Security has adopted for handing out money, it spends 7 times as much protecting each resident of Wyoming as it does protecting each resident of New York. Here's how it works. In its main grant programs, the department makes no attempt to assess needs. Instead, each state receives a base of 0.75 percent of the total, regardless of its population; the rest is then allocated in proportion to population. This is a very good deal for states with small populations, like Wyoming or Montana. It's a very bad deal for states like California or New York, which receives only 4.7 percent of the money. And since New York and other big urban states remain the most likely targets of another major attack, it's a very bad deal for the country. Why adopt such a strange formula? Well, maybe it's not that strange: what it most resembles is the Electoral College, which also gives disproportionate weight (though not that disproportionate) to states with small populations. And with a few exceptions, small-population states are red states ? indeed, the small-state bias of the Electoral College is what allowed Mr. Bush to claim the White House despite losing the popular vote. It's hard not to suspect that the formula ? which makes absolutely no sense in terms of national security ? was adopted precisely because it caters to that same constituency. (To be fair, there's one big "red state" loser from the formula: Texas. But one of these days, sooner than most people think, Texas may well turn blue.) In other words, the allocation of money confirms Mr. Chait's point: even in a time of war ? a war that seems oddly unrelated to the terrorist threat ? the Bush administration isn't serious about protecting the homeland. Instead, it continues to subordinate U.S. security needs to its unchanged political agenda. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Apr 1 13:44:07 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 12:44:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] To the RadLib Seditionist, Gabriel Gudding In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030329121508.012aa948@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: on 3/29/03 12:33 PM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote: > All of America itself was settled by landgrab conquest, treaty violation, > and genocide. > > But why not look at some links that don't include Powellian rhetoric: > http://www.smplanet.com/imperialism/toc.html > > One example: In 1903 Theodore Roosevelt foments a coup in Panama, invades > it, takes it from Colombia, annexes it. Bush 41 invades again, on pretext, > to try to keep it when the treaty contract is up. > > There are American military bases throughout the world. Here's a partial > list (it's not a full list by even 20 percent): > http://www.libsci.sc.edu/bob/class/clis734/webguides/milbase.htm > > There are bases all over the Middle East. And can you claim that this admin > isn't interested in the oil and astounding wealth of that region? > > There's nothing radical or liberal about me. I just read history. I suppose > that someone who reads history is, acc. to some, going to be considered > "radical" or "a liberal." So be it. > > > > _____________________________________________________ > "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things > they misname empire; and where they make > a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus > > > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790 > office 309.438.5284 > > http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > Gabe, since you read history, you surely must have discovered that the world is full of bad and fanatical people like Stalin and Hitler who try to impose their ideology and political rule on other people and other nations. That's why a large and wealthy nation like ours has military bases around the world. The Soviet Empire expanded in frightening fashion for a long time before it collapsed. What makes one a "radical" in America today is the belief that America is the principal source of the world's troubles and injustices; that Teddy Roosevelt's fomenting a revolution in Panama is the most perfidious example of empire building in recent centuries. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 13:51:09 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 12:51:09 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] US forces kill US citizens & 9 Iraqi children Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401124921.011c3e28@mail.ilstu.edu> BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraq's information minister accused U.S. forces Tuesday of "indiscriminately" killing their own citizens in a bus attack and killing nine Iraqi children in a central neighborhood of Babylon. http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/01/sprj.irq.sahaf/ _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 14:22:28 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 13:22:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Ric Caddel (1949-2003) Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401132111.01242cd8@mail.ilstu.edu> 100 light on the air he lived deftly delightful with a personal speech if he was over in gracing going in falling unselfish a bright tight lad kind to them all ever our loss a winner in his words all gentle and warm wit was unrealised when from us all he went from For The Fallen, by Ric Caddel. His words for his son true of him too though his wit be realised. [this poem via Mairead Byrne on Buffalo Poetics. Mr. Caddel died last night] From ggatza at daemen.edu Tue Apr 1 14:37:32 2003 From: ggatza at daemen.edu (Geoffrey Gatza) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 14:37:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: april 10 Message-ID: <002001c2f886$2360ae80$605e3318@LINKAGE> Thursday April 10 7:30 p.m. Huber Hall Library Medaille College Agassiz Circle, Buffalo JAMES TATE AND DARA WIER read Free to the public Arrive early as seats will fill up quickly ... Pulitzer-winner James Tate joins acclaimed Dara Wier in exciting double-bill at Medaille ... part of Medaille's Write Thing Reading Series, which earlier the year featured Robert Creeley and Rolling Stone's David Rees -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 1 15:01:08 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 15:01:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US forces kill US citizens & 9 Iraqi children In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401124921.011c3e28@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3E89A9B4.26036.14746C8@localhost> On 1 Apr 2003 at 12:51, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraq's information minister accused U.S. forces > Tuesday of "indiscriminately" killing their own citizens in a bus attack > and killing nine Iraqi children in a central neighborhood of Babylon. > http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/01/sprj.irq.sahaf/ Once again disingenuously confusing the policies of the Iraqi and US armies. This is a logical fallacy known as "The Big Lie" -- repeating something known to be either false or to be a misrepresentation, and repeating and repeating it until those who disagree tire of disagreeing or, more likely online in these groups, someone starts to castigate those who object to "The Big Lie" in "why can't you leave him alone to hold his own opinion?" terms. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 1 15:13:20 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 15:13:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US forces kill US citizens & 9 Iraqi children Message-ID: <1175432.1049228000998.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Interesting that with all your web-searching prowess the only source you can find for this is the Iraqi informantion ministry. On Tuesday, April 01, 2003, at 01:51PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: >BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraq's information minister accused U.S. forces >Tuesday of "indiscriminately" killing their own citizens in a bus attack >and killing nine Iraqi children in a central neighborhood of Babylon. >http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/01/sprj.irq.sahaf/ > > >_____________________________________________________ > "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things > they misname empire; and where they make > a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus > > >Gabriel Gudding >Department of English >Illinois State University >Normal, IL 61790 >office 309.438.5284 > >http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From ccooley at overdomain.com Tue Apr 1 15:47:30 2003 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 12:47:30 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Celebrating in the cruellest month In-Reply-To: <200304011701.h31H12ST016456@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: The schedule of events for the Santa Barbara Celebration of National Poetry Month is now online: www.opus0.com . From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 1 16:20:00 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 13:20:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] US forces kill US citizens & 9 Iraqi children In-Reply-To: <1175432.1049228000998.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <20030401212000.93239.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Indeed. In an earlier post, didn't I read something chastising about relying on "American news sources?" And now this tripe from CNN. Geez. Jeff Newberry Michael Snider wrote:Interesting that with all your web-searching prowess the only source you can find for this is the Iraqi informantion ministry. On Tuesday, April 01, 2003, at 01:51PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: >BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraq's information minister accused U.S. forces >Tuesday of "indiscriminately" killing their own citizens in a bus attack >and killing nine Iraqi children in a central neighborhood of Babylon. >http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/01/sprj.irq.sahaf/ > > >_____________________________________________________ > "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things > they misname empire; and where they make > a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus > > >Gabriel Gudding >Department of English >Illinois State University >Normal, IL 61790 >office 309.438.5284 > >http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JackTar at aol.com Tue Apr 1 16:25:12 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 16:25:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] from poet Patrick Herron Message-ID: <126.26421412.2bbb5db8@aol.com> In a message dated 4/1/2003 11:58:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > >"Richard Condon, a morning show host for rock station KOOJ, said he wanted > >the hecklers to "put these goofballs in their place." > Condon's a lot mouthed idiot. That's how he's always made his living. He's like a cross between Dick Vitale and Sean Hannity. The only time they take him serious is when he is once again fired for once again pulling some boneheaded play. He should stick to Sports, which is his forte - if you can call it that. Duncan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daisyf1 at juno.com Tue Apr 1 16:42:39 2003 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 16:42:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: US forces kill US citizens & 9 Iraqi children Message-ID: <20030401.164242.-261691.20.daisyf1@juno.com> Michael-- At http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2907373.stm, BBC reports this about bombings in Hilla. (The correspondents referred to seem to be western reporters.): "Hilla hospital director Murtada Abbas said the bombing had targeted the Nader residential area. "Correspondents reported seeing children wrapped in blankets on the floor of the hospital. "Among them was Razek al-Kazem al-Khafaji, who said he had lost his wife, six children, his father, his mother, and two brothers. "He said the family was fleeing fierce fighting in Nasiriya, further south, when they were attacked. "God take our revenge on America," he was reported as saying." ** Not meaning to get into this argument really, but it's worth noting, nearly 600 civilians now dead at the hands of U.S. and British troops. Whether they meant to or not doesn't make a whole lot of difference to the dead or their survivors, does it? A useful website: www.iraqbodycount.net compiles civilian death estimates (min. and max.), working from a variety of mainstream news sources, both western and eastern. Daisy >Interesting that with all your web-searching prowess the only source you can find for this is the Iraqi informantion ministry. On Tuesday, April 01, 2003, at 01:51PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: >BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraq's information minister accused U.S. forces >Tuesday of "indiscriminately" killing their own citizens in a bus attack >and killing nine Iraqi children in a central neighborhood of Babylon. >http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/01/sprj.irq.sahaf/ > > >_____________________________________________________ > "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things > they misname empire; and where they make > a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus > > >Gabriel Gudding >Department of English >Illinois State University From JackTar at aol.com Tue Apr 1 17:27:33 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 17:27:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Others Poetry - Barbara Hamby Message-ID: <19c.127f188e.2bbb6c55@aol.com> Ode on Satan's Power At a local bistro's Christmas sing-along, the new ??? ????????age pianist leads us in a pan-cultural brew > of seasonal songs, the Ramadan chant being my > ?????????????personal favorite, though the Kwanza lullaby > and Hanukkah round are very interesting. Let's > ?????????????face it, most of us are there for the carols we set > to memory in childhood though some lyrics have been > ?????????????changed, so when we sing "God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen," > we're transformed into a roomful of slightly tipsy > ?????????????middle-class gentlepeople who are longing to be > saved from hopelessness instead of Satan's power when > ?????????????we were gone astray, but I, for one, sing out Satan's > power as do most of the gentlepeople, women > > and men, something I find myself pondering a few > ?????????????days later, while my profoundly worried nephew, > Henry, and I embark on our annual blitzkrieg > ?????????????of baking, punctuated by Henry's high-speed > philosophical questioning, such as, Where do we > ?????????????go when we die? Pressing my collection of cookie > cutters?trees, snowflakes, Santas?into fragrant ginger > ?????????????dough, I want to say, Who cares? Carpe diem, buster, > though, of course, I'm way too scarred by pop psychology > ?????????????to utter half the nutty things that pop up like weeds > in the 18th century garden of my brain. Eight- > ?????????????year-olds need their questions answered, I suppose, but not > by me. I say, "Let's watch some TV," an instrument > > of Satan if ever there was one. Bullitt's on?Steve > ?????????????McQueen in his prime. I love this movie?equal waves > of sorrow and carnage washed up on a hokey late- > ?????????????sixties beach of masculine cool. McQueen is Bullitt, > and Jacqueline Bisset's his girl. Henry and I start > ?????????????watching during the scene where she is driving Bullitt > around because, if I remember correctly, he's > ?????????????totaled not just one but several cars, in at least > as many now-famous chases. Jackie drops Bullitt > ?????????????at a hotel, where he finds a girl, newly dead, throat > circled with purple fingerprints like grape jam stains. "What > ?????????????happened to her?" Henry asks, frowning. I think, Oh, shit, > this is not an officially approved nephew-aunt > Christmas activity. If I don't make a big deal ?????????????of it, maybe he won't tell his mother. "Someone strangled her," I say. "What's strangled?" he asks, and I see my sister ?????????????has chosen not to threaten her child as our own dear mother routinely threatened us. Driven crazy she ?????????????browbeat us with strangulation, being slapped silly, public humiliation, murder, and eternal ?????????????damnation. Perhaps because Henry's her only child, my sister can afford to be gentler with her son ?????????????or maybe it's because two months before he was born she almost lost him, ending up in the hospital, ?????????????hooked to machines, ordered to bed for the final wrenching weeks. Maybe that's why the story of the Christ child speaks to us. All parents wonder how the world will treat ?????????????their tender babe. Like Lorca, will he become a great poet, then end up in a mass grave? Only German ?????????????philosophers think more about death than Henry Gwynn. "Why did he strangle her?" he asks, face formidable ?????????????as Hegel's. Satan's power, I want to say, but mumble "It's just a movie, not real." Steve McQueen is dodging ?????????????a plane, and I remember reading he did his own stunts, which I tell Henry, but he's still in that hotel ?????????????room. "If she was alive, how'd she get her eyes to roll back into her head?" I'm thinking of pornography, ?????????????snuff movies, all the things I never want him to see or even know about in this tawdry world. "Honey, it's a major motion picture. Even in a small part ?????????????an actress has to be great." He nods and takes a bite off Santa's head. "She was a pretty good actress." You ?????????????bet your booty, and I realize out of the blue Santa is an anagram for Satan. No way am ?????????????I going to explain anagrams or Herr Satan, though how wonderful to have such a nemesis? ?????????????a fallen seraph one of heaven's bright, bright stars? in a battle with Jehovah for our souls, rather ?????????????than the calendar's increasing speed like a roller coaster run amok through a fun park of lost dreams, lost ?????????????landscapes, and children, growing up faster than we thought possible in the last terrible days before their birth. Barbara Hamby -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 1 18:12:33 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 18:12:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "hussein's dupe" arnett fired for daring to say US govt planshad failed References: Message-ID: <007f01c2f8a4$2dbed000$e0b0fea9@j1c1k6> > Don't worry too much about Arnett's being out of work. > Seems he's already been hired by London's *Daily Mirror*. > > Hal What'd Saddam have against him? --Bob G. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 21:04:50 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 20:04:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] noble soldiers destroy H20 supply then SELL water back Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401200310.01a94cd0@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/71786p-66584c.html UMM QASR, Iraq - The U.S. military came up with a solution yesterday for the penniless people of this port town begging for water: Sell it. Despite general mayhem at distribution points - including knife fights - the Army has struck a hasty agreement with local Iraqis to expedite distribution of water to the roughly 40,000 living here. Under the deal, the military will provide water free to locals with access to tanker trucks, who then will be allowed to sell the water for a "reasonable" fee. "We're permitting them to charge a small fee for water," said Army Col. David Bassert. "This provides them with an incentive to hustle and to work," said Bassert, an assistant commander with the 354th Civil Affairs Brigade. He said he could not suggest what constitutes a reasonable fee and did not know what the truckers were charging. He said the tradition here of haggling at markets would help the system work. "People know when they're being gouged - we'll deal with it," Bassert said. But with the population badly in need of water, food and medical supplies, the arrangement drew its share of critics. 'This is crazy' Several Iraqi-Americans originally from this region, who are working as interpreters and guides with the U.S. military, were incensed at what they consider an attempt to jump-start a free-market economy during a crisis. "This is bull----," said an Iraqi-American who asked to be identified only as Ahmed. "They are selling water and this is crazy. Nobody has any money, nobody knows what is money [to use] - Iraqi money, American money, nobody knows." A British military spokesman angrily objected to the water deal. The British control the city of Umm Qasr while the Americans are in charge of the port. "We're not going to have any charging for water. What kind of an aid plan would that be? These people don't even have shoes," the spokesman said. Ahmed and the others said they had seen fights with fists and knives among desperate locals trying to get water from the truckers. Ill at ease The reports could not be independently confirmed because a promised military escort for reporters into town never took place. Officers said the trip was canceled because of widespread clashes between remnants of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's supporters and British troops, although no firing could be heard and the Iraqi-Americans who spent the afternoon in town said no clashes had taken place. But the general situation was far from secure. A heavy mortar or artillery round launched toward the port shook buildings and rattled windows but exploded beyond the fence and caused no casualties. Editor's Note: The military has confiscated the satellite phones of a certain make used by journalists traveling with U.S. troops in Iraq, including those used by reporter Richard Sisk and photographer Todd Maisel of the Daily News, for fear that Iraqi forces could intercept the signal and target U.S. positions. This dispatch has been sent by other means approved by the military, but military officials did not review or restrict its contents. Originally published on April 1, 2003 _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 21:09:26 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 20:09:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kucinich Speaks Out on the House Floor Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401200801.01ab9e98@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/oh10_kucinich/030401floorwar.html Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH), who leads opposition to the War in Iraq within the House, today, issued the following statement on the House floor: "Stop the war now. As Baghdad will be encircled, this is the time to get the UN back in to inspect Baghdad and the rest of Iraq for biological and chemical weapons. Our troops should not have to be the ones who will find out, in combat, whether Iraq has such weapons. Why put our troops at greater risk? We could get the United Nations inspectors back in. "Stop the war now. Before we send our troops into house-to-house combat in Baghdad, a city of five million people. Before we ask our troops to take up the burden of shooting innocent civilians in the fog of war. "Stop the war now. This war has been advanced on lie upon lie. Iraq was not responsible for 9/11. Iraq was not responsible for any role al-Qaeda may have had in 9/11. Iraq was not responsible for the anthrax attacks on this country. Iraq did not tried to acquire nuclear weapons technology from Niger. This war is built on falsehood. "Stop the war now. We are not defending America in Iraq. Iraq did not attack this nation. Iraq has no ability to attack this nation. Each innocent civilian casualty represents a threat to America for years to come and will end up making our nation less safe. The seventy-five billion dollar supplemental needs to be challenged because each dime we spend on this war makes America less safe. Only international cooperation will help us meet the challenge of terrorism. After 9/11 all Americans remember we had the support and the sympathy of the world. Every nation was ready to be of assistance to the United States in meeting the challenge of terrorism. And yet, with this war, we have squandered the sympathy of the world. We have brought upon this nation the anger of the world. We need the cooperation of the world, to find the terrorists before they come to our shores. "Stop this war now. Seventy-five billion dollars more for war. Three-quarters of a trillion dollars for tax cuts, but no money for veterans' benefits. Money for war. No money for health care in America, but money for war. No money for social security, but money for war. We have money to blow up bridges over the Tigris and the Euphrates, but no money to build bridges in our own cities. We have money to ruin the health of the Iraqi children, but no money to repair the health of our own children and our educational programs. "Stop this war now. It is wrong. It is illegal. It is unjust and it will come to no good for this country. "Stop this war now. Show our wisdom and our humanity, to be able to stop it, to bring back the United Nations into the process. Rescue this moment. Rescue this nation from a war that is wrong, that is unjust, that is immoral. "Stop this war now." _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 21:13:03 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 20:13:03 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Federal Poetry Subsidies Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401201103.01ab1488@mail.ilstu.edu> [this via John Corelis on poetryetc] - Rrepublican formalist poets take note: >FEDERAL POETRY SUBSIDIES PROPOSED > >Washington, D. C. (CNS) - > >In a surprise move, the Bush Administration has announced that it will >propose legislation in Congress to subsidize the production of verse by >American poets. > >The program, which will be modeled on the longstanding federal agricultural >price support program, will be designed to ensure a market at a basic price >support level for the nation's poetry output. > >According to administration spokeswoman April Narr, a goal of the subsidies >will be to ensure the continuing production of particular types of verse for >which the market is currently weak. "For instance," she said at a news >conference this morning, "not too many people write sonnets or heroic >couplets any more, so those types of verse would be eligible for special >price supports." > >Narr also said in response to questions that although the details have yet >to be worked out, subject matter may also be taken into account to determine >the price support levels of different types of poems. "There are plenty >poems being written about having an affair or traveling in Europe or >watching your child grow up," she said, "so that sort of poetry probably >needs less subsidy. But poems about junk yards or shaving cream or peeling >an orange are more rare and may be deserving of more price support." > >When questioned as to whether the public will accept a government program >which channels taxpayers' dollars to poets, Narr replied, "It's really not >such an unusual idea when you think of it. After all, if the federal >government can pay farmers to produce soybeans, why can't it pay poets to >produce sonnets?" > > > >================================================== > >Jon Corelis joncpoetics at hotmail.com >http://www.geocities.com/joncpoetics > >================================================== > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 21:30:05 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 20:30:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Routines by Others: Robin Williams Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401202820.01af8a18@mail.ilstu.edu> positively un-American http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2003/03/31/ddish.DTL ROBIN WILLIAMS BLASTS BUSH Funnyman Robin Williams has launched a scathing attack on President George W. Bush and his decision to go ahead with war on Iraq. The "One Hour Photo" actor also criticizes what he sees as his country's mixed messages when it comes to national security. He says, "America is broke, basically, but Bush wants to wage a war that costs pretty much a billion dollars a month. "We have a president for whom English is a second language. He's like 'We have to get rid of dictators,' but he's pretty much one himself. "In America, we have orange alert, but what the hell does that mean? We're supposed to be afraid of Krishna? Of orange sorbet? Then it's like, 'You can't go out and shop, it's too dangerous out there,' but if that happens then the economy falls. "The message is so mixed: 'Be afraid, but not too afraid.'" _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 1 21:51:48 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 21:51:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] noble soldiers destroy H20 supply then SELL water back In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401200310.01a94cd0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <0C1A11F1-64B6-11D7-924F-000393C29586@mac.com> Gabriel, the soldiers are NOT the ones selling the water. The plan seems stupid to me, but are you really unable to read the stuff you paste into your messages? On Tuesday, April 1, 2003, at 09:04 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/71786p-66584c.html > > UMM QASR, Iraq - The U.S. military came up with a solution yesterday > for the penniless people of this port town begging for water: Sell it. > Despite general mayhem at distribution points - including knife fights > - the Army has struck a hasty agreement with local Iraqis to expedite > distribution of water to the roughly 40,000 living here. > Under the deal, the military will provide water free to locals with > access to tanker trucks, who then will be allowed to sell the water > for a "reasonable" fee. > "We're permitting them to charge a small fee for water," said Army > Col. David Bassert. > "This provides them with an incentive to hustle and to work," said > Bassert, an assistant commander with the 354th Civil Affairs Brigade. > He said he could not suggest what constitutes a reasonable fee and did > not know what the truckers were charging. He said the tradition here > of haggling at markets would help the system work. > "People know when they're being gouged - we'll deal with it," Bassert > said. > But with the population badly in need of water, food and medical > supplies, the arrangement drew its share of critics. > 'This is crazy' > Several Iraqi-Americans originally from this region, who are working > as interpreters and guides with the U.S. military, were incensed at > what they consider an attempt to jump-start a free-market economy > during a crisis. > "This is bull----," said an Iraqi-American who asked to be identified > only as Ahmed. "They are selling water and this is crazy. Nobody has > any money, nobody knows what is money [to use] - Iraqi money, American > money, nobody knows." > A British military spokesman angrily objected to the water deal. The > British control the city of Umm Qasr while the Americans are in charge > of the port. > "We're not going to have any charging for water. What kind of an aid > plan would that be? These people don't even have shoes," the spokesman > said. > Ahmed and the others said they had seen fights with fists and knives > among desperate locals trying to get water from the truckers. > Ill at ease > The reports could not be independently confirmed because a promised > military escort for reporters into town never took place. > Officers said the trip was canceled because of widespread clashes > between remnants of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's supporters and > British troops, although no firing could be heard and the > Iraqi-Americans who spent the afternoon in town said no clashes had > taken place. > But the general situation was far from secure. A heavy mortar or > artillery round launched toward the port shook buildings and rattled > windows but exploded beyond the fence and caused no casualties. > Editor's Note: The military has confiscated the satellite phones of a > certain make used by journalists traveling with U.S. troops in Iraq, > including those used by reporter Richard Sisk and photographer Todd > Maisel of the Daily News, for fear that Iraqi forces could intercept > the signal and target U.S. positions. This dispatch has been sent by > other means approved by the military, but military officials did not > review or restrict its contents. > > Originally published on April 1, 2003 > > > _____________________________________________________ > "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things > they misname empire; and where they make > a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus > > > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790 > office 309.438.5284 > > http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JackTar at aol.com Tue Apr 1 21:53:02 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 21:53:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Routines by Others: Robin Williams Message-ID: <57.1a931716.2bbbaa8e@aol.com> In a message dated 4/1/2003 9:32:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > positively un-American > At some point your use of slanderous material will equate to the boy who cried wolf. If you know the story, you know when there boy did have a valid claim it was ignored. duncan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 1 22:14:19 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:14:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Federal Poetry Subsidies Message-ID: <18c.183070ed.2bbbaf8b@cs.com> In a message dated 4/1/2003 8:14:17 PM Central Standard Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > > [this via John Corelis on poetryetc] - Rrepublican formalist poets take > note: > > > >FEDERAL POETRY SUBSIDIES PROPOSED > > > >Washington, D. C. (CNS) - > > > >In a surprise move, the Bush Administration has announced that it will > >propose legislation in Congress to subsidize the production of verse by > >American poets. > > > >The program, which will be modeled on the longstanding federal > agricultural > >price support program, will be designed to ensure a market at a basic > price > >support level for the nation's poetry output. > > > >According to administration spokeswoman April Narr, a goal of the > subsidies > >will be to ensure the continuing production of particular types of verse > for > >which the market is currently weak. "For instance," she said at a news > >conference this morning, "not too many people write sonnets or heroic > >couplets any more, so those types of verse would be eligible for special > >price supports." > > > >Narr also said in response to questions that although the details have yet > >to be worked out, subject matter may also be taken into account to > determine > >the price support levels of different types of poems. "There are plenty > >poems being written about having an affair or traveling in Europe or > >watching your child grow up," she said, "so that sort of poetry probably > >needs less subsidy. But poems about junk yards or shaving cream or > peeling > >an orange are more rare and may be deserving of more price support." > > > >When questioned as to whether the public will accept a government program > >which channels taxpayers' dollars to poets, Narr replied, "It's really not > >such an unusual idea when you think of it. After all, if the federal > >government can pay farmers to produce soybeans, why can't it pay poets to > >produce sonnets?" > > What a great idea! Where do I apply? Today I also got an offer to sell me 10% of the Brooklyn Bridge in exchange for a villanelle and fifty lines of blank verse. Hooray! Happy days are here again! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 1 22:16:26 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:16:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] noble soldiers destroy H20 supply then SELL water back Message-ID: <65.dd4a8d9.2bbbb00a@cs.com> In a message dated 4/1/2003 8:54:49 PM Central Standard Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: > > Gabriel, the soldiers are NOT the ones selling the water. The plan > seems stupid to me, but are you really unable to read the stuff you > paste into your messages? > > On Tuesday, April 1, 2003, at 09:04 PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > >http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/71786p-66584c.html > > > >UMM QASR, Iraq - The U.S. military came up with a solution yesterday > >for the penniless people of this port town begging for water: Sell it. > >Despite general mayhem at distribution points - including knife fights > >- the Army has struck a hasty agreement with local Iraqis to expedite > >distribution of water to the roughly 40,000 living here. > >Under the deal, the military will provide water free to locals with > >access to tanker trucks, who then will be allowed to sell the water > >for a "reasonable" fee. > >"We're permitting them to charge a small fee for water," said Army > >Col. David Bassert. > >"This provides them with an incentive to hustle and to work," said > >Bassert, an assistant commander with the 354th Civil Affairs Brigade. > >He said he could not suggest what constitutes a reasonable fee and did > >not know what the truckers were charging. He said the tradition here > >of haggling at markets would help the system work. > >"People know when they're being gouged - we'll deal with it," Bassert > >said. > >But with the population badly in need of water, food and medical > >supplies, the arrangement drew its share of critics. > >'This is crazy' > >Several Iraqi-Americans originally from this region, who are working > >as interpreters and guides with the U.S. military, were incensed at > >what they consider an attempt to jump-start a free-market economy > >during a crisis. > >"This is bull----," said an Iraqi-American who asked to be identified > >only as Ahmed. "They are selling water and this is crazy. Nobody has > >any money, nobody knows what is money [to use] - Iraqi money, American > >money, nobody knows." > >A British military spokesman angrily objected to the water deal. The > >British control the city of Umm Qasr while the Americans are in charge > >of the port. > >"We're not going to have any charging for water. What kind of an aid > >plan would that be? These people don't even have shoes," the spokesman > >said. > >Ahmed and the others said they had seen fights with fists and knives > >among desperate locals trying to get water from the truckers. > >Ill at ease > >The reports could not be independently confirmed because a promised > >military escort for reporters into town never took place. > >Officers said the trip was canceled because of widespread clashes > >between remnants of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's supporters and > >British troops, although no firing could be heard and the > >Iraqi-Americans who spent the afternoon in town said no clashes had > >taken place. > >But the general situation was far from secure. A heavy mortar or > >artillery round launched toward the port shook buildings and rattled > >windows but exploded beyond the fence and caused no casualties. > >Editor's Note: The military has confiscated the satellite phones of a > >certain make used by journalists traveling with U.S. troops in Iraq, > >including those used by reporter Richard Sisk and photographer Todd > >Maisel of the Daily News, for fear that Iraqi forces could intercept > >the signal and target U.S. positions. This dispatch has been sent by > >other means approved by the military, but military officials did not > >review or restrict its contents. > > > >Originally published on April 1, 2003 > > Alas, I fear that Prof. Gudding went through grad school after the demise of close reading. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 1 22:29:45 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:29:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Of Prof. Gudding--3 Questions Message-ID: <1ec.5a0bd90.2bbbb329@cs.com> 1. What, precisely, is the nature of the symbiotic relationship between Prof. Gudding and Kent Johnson? 2. What the hell is this segment from Prof. Gudding's blog about? Saturday, March 15, 2003 > Sometimes I think some people don't like my book because they think it's > depraved. As if to that to defend my speak out on behalf of my own book > would be to support nosepicking or encourage the treatment of mucus as if > snot were a class of slushy diamond, a thing to be mounted on a ring, as if > the nose were itself a facial raspberry bush needing to be shaken of its > fat and mucal fruits. As if to support this book would be to defend dung > flinging, grandmother fucking, sex with the anus, the beer spitting. To > defend this book would be to defend the eating of artery rope and hickey > blood, to defend a lunch of sphincter, would be to camp near a pizza of > nipples, have a cup of cat pus, to have made finally a malodorous puck from > the colon candy of one?s favorite professor; it would be to lift the skirt > of the dean, to eat the maid?s warm underclothes, to chew a cartilage > muffin made from the nose tips of the reviewer?s babies; to defend a > chowder of clitorises, to have made eyelid mincemeat, to have planted in > brightest April a cold bulb of hymen sausage, we hiked forever through > sputum sherry downed with earlobe stew, the eyebrow hair bread before > cupcake of lip, swig of sweat with a little bubo coffee and a jello of > menses, that jujube of jejunum was delish after the knuckle goulash, > esophagus salami, testicle custard, adenoids caviar, the smegma fondues, > and we kept hiking through the golden urine brisket, the biscuits of woven > eyelash, those labia on the bagels like so much lox, your mother?s breast > milk milkshake, her dingleberry kernels. But my booky argues nothing like > this; there is nothing there depraved, decadent or aberrant. The dung is > there, yes, but what of that? > > posted by Gabriel 7:35:41 PM > 3. Frankly, I don't really know what the third question is. How about: Why us? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 1 22:30:55 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 21:30:55 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] noble soldiers destroy H20 supply then SELL water back In-Reply-To: <65.dd4a8d9.2bbbb00a@cs.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401212553.01c28648@mail.ilstu.edu> thanks sam. you're right, in a rush and trying to squish a long abstract into teh subject heading, shoulda read "noble soldiers destroy H20 supply then arrange to sell water back" or soemtthing. thanks for your eagle eye, >Alas, I fear that Prof. Gudding went through grad school after the demise >of close reading. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 1 23:26:48 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 23:26:48 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] noble soldiers destroy H20 supply then SELL water back Message-ID: <1d6.6740468.2bbbc088@cs.com> In a message dated 4/1/2003 9:33:15 PM Central Standard Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > > thanks sam. you're right, in a rush and trying to squish a long abstract > into teh subject heading, shoulda read "noble soldiers destroy H20 supply > then arrange to sell water back" or soemtthing. thanks for your eagle eye, > OK, I think we can agree on several points: 1. War is not a good thing, generally speaking. 2. Innocent civilians get hurt in war, a regrettable fact. 3. This was has more questionable motives than some wars but fewer than others (Italy's invasion of Abyssinia vs. the Allies' invasion of France). 4. Once in a war, the two best solutions are quick withdrawal or a quick victory. 5. Bombing in a war affects untargeted civilians and infrastructure. It happened first on these shores, I think, in Charleston, S.C. 6. Sometime infrastructure--communications, power sources, water supply--is targeted in a war. 7. Something, possibly the bombing, disrupted the water supply here. 8. Efficient dispersal of remaining water supplies for untargeted civilians is a good thing. Water is good. 9. The military has come up with a plan, perhaps flawed, to disperse water to untargeted civilians now that the interruption of the infrastructure has been completed. 10. 8 and 9 are better than denying untargeted civilians any access to water. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 2 01:46:42 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 00:46:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] UK command appalled at US troops Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030402004315.01b093c8@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0401-04.htm From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 2 01:55:02 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 00:55:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Guardian insists this war is un-American Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030402005222.01b2ac58@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,927860,00.html "This war is un-American. That's an unlikely word to use, I know: it has an unhappy provenance, associated forever with the McCarthyite hunt for reds under the beds, purging anyone suspected of "un-American activities". Besides, for many outside the US, the problem with this war is not that it's un-American - but all too American. But that does an injustice to the US and its history. It assumes that the Bush administration represents all America, at all times, when in fact the opposite is true." From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 2 02:24:03 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 01:24:03 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] some reports from austrialian journalist Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030402012111.01ad6d30@mail.ilstu.edu> This from Austrialian journalist Chris Jones on poetryetc ]> >Hiya, I'm back from visiting my friend who has been locked up in a >maximum security prison otherwise known as the acute section of the >psychiatric unit in a large teaching hospital. (The NSW 1990 Mental >Health Act is a disgusting law.... but I already knew that.) > >What I wanted to address is Alison's comments about journalism and this >war. I have received a few leads on what is happening but haven't >checked my sources or done any analysis as a good journalist should. >(Too strung out to do the whole bit, right now.) > >First: I have read reports that journalists who are selected to be >embedded in coalition military units are required to say they support >the war before being accepted. If they then don't comply with propaganda >requirements dictated to them by the commanding officer they will have >their uplink (satellite phone) removed from them by force if need be and >if they continue to attempt to post stories which are not approved they >risk being shot. > >Second: I have read a report that one independent western journalist >team has already been shot by coalition forces. The only survivor who >lived to tell the story was the Iraqi translator. It is of course not >uncommon for journalists to receive death threats and be shot at even in >non-combat situations (as I well know) so I wouldn't be surprised if >more independent journalists currently in Iraq also find coalition >forces ammunition embedded in their bodies. > >Third: nearly every major lead story I have seen on this war (in Aust) >is so obviously propaganda that I do not think it can be called >journalism at all. I saw some of the BBC coverage as well and that was >so bad it would put a Murdoch tabloid to shame (to be polite about it.) > >As for the Journalist Code of Ethics, that got thrown out of the window >in 1975 in Australia and journalists have been fighting to get it back >ever since. It obviously isn't worth a pinch of shit with this current >situation...... but don't stop fighting for it. (If anyone has an >electronic copy of the Code it may be worth posting as others on this >list may be interested to read it. Sorry, I don't have one with me.) > >best wishes > >Chris Jones. > >PS. So far as I know Robert Fisk is in Baghdad and still alive. > >And thanks Gabe for posting those URLs of alternative news sources. (I >had them but haven't yet had time to check them... I am relying on what >is being sent to me by emails for the above leads.) Robert Fisk's >website may be worth a look? ..... I have read reports which suggest fragging with US troops may be becoming more common then is being reported and there appears to be growing dissatisfaction within the ranks of US troops. Apparently the food rations are so bad the troops only eat the piece of chocolate they are given and leave the rest, meaning better rations are on urgent order. Further, some troops are saying they feel like they have been misled or conned by their commanding officers for various reasons. (Again, only leads and these sources may be more difficult to check given the situation.) From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 2 04:03:29 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 03:03:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] two daughters decapitated Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030402030159.01a5adb8@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/02/1048962796085.html 'I saw the heads of my two little girls come off' April 2 2003, 11:38 AM An Iraqi mother in a van fired on by US soldiers says she saw her two young daughters decapitated in the incident that also killed her son and eight other members of her family. The children's father, who was also in the van, said US soldiers fired on them as they fled towards a checkpoint because they thought a leaflet dropped by US helicopters told them to "be safe", and they believed that meant getting out of their village to Karbala. Bakhat Hassan - who lost his daughters, aged two and five, his three-year-old son, his parents, two older brothers, their wives and two nieces aged 12 and 15, in the incident - said US soldiers at an earlier checkpoint had waved them through. As they approached another checkpoint 40km south of Karbala, they waved again at the American soldiers. "We were thinking these Americans want us to be safe," Hassan said through an Army translator at a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital set up at a vast Army support camp near Najaf. The soldiers didn't wave back. They fired. "I saw the heads of my two little girls come off," Hassan's heavily pregnant wife, Lamea, 36, said numbly. She repeated herself in a flat, even voice: "My girls - I watched their heads come off their bodies. My son is dead." US officials originally gave the death toll from the incident as seven, but reporters at the scene placed it at 10. And Bakhat Hassan terrible toll was 11 members of his family. Hassan's father died at the Army hospital later. US officials said the soldiers at an Army checkpoint who opened fire were following orders not to let vehicles approach checkpoints. On Saturday, a suicide bomber had killed four US soldiers outside Najaf. Details emerging from interviews with survivors of yesterday's incident tell a distressing tale of a family fleeing towards what they thought would be safety, tragically misunderstanding instructions. Hassan's father, in his 60s, wore his best clothes for the trip through the American lines: a pinstriped suit. "To look American," Hassan said. An Army report written last night cited "a miscommunication with civilians" as the cause of the incident. Hassan, his wife and another of his brothers are in intensive care at the MASH unit. Another brother, sister-in-law and a seven-year-old child were released to bury the dead. The Shi'ite family of 17 was packed into a 1974 Land Rover, so crowded that Bakhat, 35, was outside on the rear bumper hanging on to the back door. Everyone else was piled on one another's laps in three sets of seats. They were fleeing their farm town southeast of Karbala, where US attack helicopters had fired missiles and rockets the day before. Helicopters also had dropped leaflets on the town: a drawing of a family sitting at a table eating and smiling with a message written in Arabic. Sergeant 1st Class Stephen Furbush, an Army intelligence analyst, said the message read: "To be safe, stay put." But Hassan said he and his father thought it just said: "Be safe". To them, that meant getting away from the helicopters firing rockets and missiles. His father drove. They planned to go to Karbala. They stopped at an Army checkpoint on the northbound road near Sahara, about 40km south of Karbala, and were told to go on, Hassan said. But "the Iraqi family misunderstood" what the soldiers were saying, Furbush said. A few kilometres later, a Bradley Fighting Vehicle came into view. The family waved as it came closer. The soldiers opened fire. Hassan remembers an Army medic at the scene of the killings speaking Arabic. "He told us it was a mistake and the soldiers were sorry," Hassan said. "They believed it was a van of suicide bombers," Furbush said. Hassan, his wife, his father and a brother were airlifted to the MASH unit. Three doctors and three nurses worked on the father for four hours but he died despite their efforts. Today, Hassan and his wife remain at the unit. He has staples in his head. She has a mangled hand and shrapnel in her face and shoulder. Major Scott McDannold, an anaesthesiologist, said Hassan's brother, lying nearby, wouldn't make it. He is on a respirator with a broken neck. On March 16, Hassan and his family began to harvest tomatoes, cucumbers, scallions and eggplant. It was a healthy crop, and they expected a good year. "We had hope," he said. "But then you Americans came to bring us democracy and our hope ended." Lamea is nine months pregnant. "It would be better not to have the baby," she said. "Our lives are over." KRT From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 2 08:00:24 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 08:00:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] disingenuously gudding claims noble soldiers SELL water In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030401200310.01a94cd0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3E8A9898.12843.B49F0@localhost> On 1 Apr 2003 at 20:04, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > http://www.nydailynews.com/news/story/71786p-66584c.html > Under the deal, the military will provide water free to locals with access > to tanker trucks, who then will be allowed to sell the water for a > "reasonable" fee.<< Once again, Gudding makes a disingenuous claim: that the US is selling water. As noted in the very story he quotes, the US is NOT selling water -- it's giving it away free. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bardo at optonline.net Wed Apr 2 07:57:20 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 07:57:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <3E896C18.2800.569489@localhost> Message-ID: <006d01c2f917$6625ea00$6d94c044@MULDER> : DZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > Daniel Zimmerman: > > As for the bombed farm, I do not doubt for a minute that the pilot(s) did > > not target civilians, but that matters very little if at all to those > > civilians-or to the increasingly restive Muslim world. Actions have > > consequences. Mistakes happen in war. If the government decides, as a matter > > of policy, to wage war, mistakes become-however regrettably-an inescapable, > > de facto part of that policy. Therefore, to insist that "mistakes are not > > policy" constitutes a red herring.<< > > No, it does not when the distinction that is being drawn is one > between those governments who acknowledge and regret that such > mistakes may happen as mistakes, and authorities whose policies are > to target civilians, or use civilians, to kill. The red herring, if > there is one in this discussion, inheres in Gabe's attempts to say > that WHAT is happening can be separated from WHY. Gabe holds, > apparently, that any dead civilian anywhere is a matter for his, and > our, outrage -- and it is, it is -- but his position seems to be that > there is no difference between killing civilians as a matter of > policy on the one hand, and as a matter of unintended consequences of > combat, on the other. > > You, Daniel, go even further -- you are saying that that distinction > is itself a fallacy, a red herring, because, it seems, you want to > say that there are no unintended consequences -- that the policy- > makers, in deciding on the policy of invasion, have ipso facto > decided on a policy of killing civilians because they know, or ought > to know, that one cannot conduct combat without killing some > civilians. > > Is that your position? > DZ: Basically, yes: I believe that intention makes little difference to the dead-especially to the innocent dead. Ignored-but-certain consequences (the "regrettable collateral damage" of the war makers' parlance) qualify, as I see it, as equivalent to "unintended" consequences. Just War theory, from Augustine to the present, has fought like Proteus to deny that equivalence, but its equivocations-which amount to "one man's ceiling is another man's floor"-cannot restore the lives lost to war. In the present conflict, particularly, the U.S. has had little success convincing other nations of the justice of war; many of those giving lip service do so because we've extorted their support with threats or bought it with cash. Claims that we try to avoid civilian deaths-and even genuine efforts to minimize them-may comfort the consciences of the American public, but (no doubt unintentionally) do not have the same effect in much of the rest of the world and, obviously, to some Americans as well. We have no Pearl Harbor here to justify a war of self-defense; we haven't even got a bogus Gulf of Tonkin incident. We have only a desire for oil wrapped in the sanctimonious veil of humanitarian interest for the Iraqi population oppressed by the dictator we supported for so long because of his foreign (Iran) and despite his domestic (Kurd and Shiite) depredations. As in Viet Nam, we seem prepared to "destroy the village in order to save it." Congress has given the usurper in the White House carte blanche, nearly dictatorial power to prosecute this aggression, and has permitted the maniacal and prudish attorney general power over American citizens greater than at any time since Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War (and behind that, since the Alien and Sedition Acts under John Adams). Bush & Co. knew they would kill civilians and thought the price worth it, just as Madeline Albright considered the deaths of half a million Iraqi children an "acceptable" price of "containing" Saddam Hussein. The party in power obviously makes no difference when it comes to condoning slaughter, whether by the sword or sickness or starvation. The policy itself stinks of disingenuousness and hypocrisy, and we should abandon it and return to diplomacy and genuine consensus-building by supplying Iraq with food and medicine while isolating it economically with a boycott on its exports. Dan > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Apr 2 08:18:35 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 08:18:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] in the red zone Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402081223.00ade5b0@postoffice.brown.edu> this just in from Rooters: Mawines thrust into the so-called poetry "red zone", a highly-shuttled verbal landscape characterized by intense burbling & emoting. Correspondents embedded with both Mawine foyces & emenem foyces report extreme levels of beddy-by tucking-in from Poet Laweate down to Buffy-Low chat list levels. Gabe Gudding, a highly-oiled & placed spokespotion for the regime, made fun of all concoyned with his cute quotes from all over the prop room. Further encounters likely but discounted as "not serious". Henry From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 2 08:37:11 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 08:37:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Of Prof. Gudding--1 Question In-Reply-To: <1ec.5a0bd90.2bbbb329@cs.com> Message-ID: Nothing sneerier than one professor addressing another professor as professor, is there? Hal ?Quien es m?s macho--Saddam Hussein o George W. Bush? Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard Subject: [New-Poetry] Of Prof. Gudding--3 Questions 1. What, precisely, is the nature of the symbiotic relationship between Prof. Gudding and Kent Johnson? 2. What the hell is this segment from Prof. Gudding's blog about? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 2 08:49:43 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 08:49:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <006d01c2f917$6625ea00$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3E8AA427.25120.386F9D@localhost> Marcus Bales: > > You, Daniel, go even further -- you are saying that that distinction > > is itself a fallacy, a red herring, because, it seems, you want to > > say that there are no unintended consequences -- that the policy- > > makers, in deciding on the policy of invasion, have ipso facto > > decided on a policy of killing civilians because they know, or ought > > to know, that one cannot conduct combat without killing some > > civilians. > > Is that your position? Daniel Zimmerman: > ... Basically, yes: I believe that intention makes little difference to the > dead-especially to the innocent dead.<< No doubt, but we measure deeds in part by the intentions behind them - - we distinguish between manslaughter and first degree murder on intention, for example, and by no means the only one. Your determination to eliminate weighing intention to judge acts would, if one tried to practice it in the real world, make judging acts nearly impossible unless you're thinking of substituting some quantitative measure for the measure of intention, viz., saving one life is for you the moral equivalent of taking another. Daniel Zimmerman: > Ignored-but-certain consequences (the > "regrettable collateral damage" of the war makers' parlance) qualify, as I > see it, as equivalent to "unintended" consequences. Just War theory, from > Augustine to the present, has fought like Proteus to deny that equivalence, > but its equivocations-which amount to "one man's ceiling is another man's > floor"-cannot restore the lives lost to war.<< But Daniel, the question is not one of whether lives can be restored, in war or peace, nor one of whether intentions make a difference to the dead -- the question is how do we live in the world as it is and change it for the better. If we cannot weigh intentions then we are hamstrung in our judgments of acts and people -- hamstrung in making judgments about the world as it is. We cannot hope to make the world better if we cannot say that these intentions are good or those bad; that these intentions ameliorate this bad act, or those bad intentions taint that good one. Daniel Zimmerman: > In the present conflict, > particularly, the U.S. has had little success convincing other nations of > the justice of war; many of those giving lip service do so because we've > extorted their support with threats or bought it with cash.<< Very true, and I lament with you that fact; but to argue that the diplomatic bungling which produced the failure to persuade, as you seem to argue, is to rely on the very appeal to intentions that you elsewhere disparage. You are trying to say that the intentions of the US and its allies are not good and so therefore the war is not good. You can't have it both ways. Daniel Zimmerman: > Claims that we try to avoid civilian deaths-and even genuine efforts to > minimize them-may comfort the consciences of the American public, but (no > doubt unintentionally) do not have the same effect in much of the rest of > the world and, obviously, to some Americans as well. We have no Pearl Harbor > here to justify a war of self-defense; we haven't even got a bogus Gulf of > Tonkin incident. We have only a desire for oil wrapped in the sanctimonious > veil of humanitarian interest for the Iraqi population oppressed by the > dictator we supported for so long because of his foreign (Iran) and despite > his domestic (Kurd and Shiite) depredations. << But Daniel, this is, again, an appeal to the very notion of good vs bad intentions that you elsewhere disparage. You cannot have it both ways. Either intentions don't matter or they do; if they do, then they matter all the time; if they don't, then they never matter. How do you propose to weigh these matters without appealing to intention? Perhaps the quantitative pros of seizing oil to the American public outweighs the quantitative cons of killing Iraqis? In an intention- less weighing of the matter it may well be that from a purely selfish American point of view it is better to trade some blood for a lot of oil. Only by appeal to intention can you avoid such a gruesome calculus -- but you cannot appeal to intention here if you say that no appeal to intention can be made when weighing whether dead civilians are "regrettable accidents" or "murder". Daniel Zimmerman: > As in Viet Nam, we seem > prepared to "destroy the village in order to save it." Congress has given > the usurper in the White House carte blanche, nearly dictatorial power to > prosecute this aggression, and has permitted > the maniacal and prudish attorney general power over American citizens > greater than at any time since Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the > Civil War (and behind that, since the Alien and Sedition Acts under John > Adams).<< True, and that abdication of power is very bad judgment -- but you are once again making an appeal to intention here when you say "maniacal and prudish attorney general". You are attributing intentions to him. You can't have it both ways. Daniel Zimmerman: > Bush & Co. knew they would kill civilians and thought the price worth it, > just as Madeline Albright considered the deaths of half a million Iraqi > children an "acceptable" price of "containing" Saddam Hussein. The party in > power obviously makes no difference when it comes to condoning slaughter, > whether by the sword or sickness or starvation. The policy itself stinks of > disingenuousness and hypocrisy, and we should abandon it and return to > diplomacy and genuine consensus-building by supplying Iraq with food and > medicine while isolating it economically with a boycott on its exports.<< I agree that there are better ways to approach the problem of Iraq and the terrorists of Al Qaeda. But your claim that we cannot weigh intentions is wearing thin in your repeated weighings of intentions. It appears that you don't really mean to say that we can never weigh intentions -- you seem to want to weigh intentions *differently*, not not at all, than they have been weighed with respect to the killing civilians by military personnel. Your implicit proposal seems to be that the purported intentions of the decision-makers transfer directly down to the actions of the soldiers: that bad reasons to go to war means that there can be no good intentions with regard to trying to kill as few civilians as possible. Is that your view? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 2 09:13:16 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 09:13:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Of Prof. Gudding--3 Questions In-Reply-To: <1ec.5a0bd90.2bbbb329@cs.com> Message-ID: <3E8AA9AC.12289.4E00CB@localhost> On 1 Apr 2003 at 22:29, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > 1. What, precisely, is the nature of the symbiotic relationship between > Prof. Gudding and Kent Johnson? And has anyone else noticed Prof. Gudding's regular and flattering paens to Mairead Byrne as if he merely admired her work from afar? Prof. Gudding seems to be disingenuous in more ways than one. It makes one wonder what his relationship is with Mike Magee. "Gabriel Gudding is a lecturer at Cornell University. His 1500-word insult poem, "A Defense of Poetry," is in Conduit (#9). Other poems are forthcoming in other journals. He lives in Ithaca, New York, with Irish poet Mairead Byrne and their two small companions, Marina and Clio." -- http://www.aprweb.org/issues/mar01/gudding.html Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 2 09:25:06 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 09:25:06 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Of Prof. Gudding--1 Question Message-ID: <2f.376e52de.2bbc4cc2@cs.com> In a message dated 4/2/2003 7:46:37 AM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > Nothing sneerier than one professor addressing another > professor as professor, is there? > > Hal > It's just Prof. courtesy, Sir Hal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Wed Apr 2 09:37:21 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:37:21 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] in the red zone References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030402081223.00ade5b0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <008101c2f925$5efc62a0$1a607550@anny> oh golden Henwiy, Henwiy.... :-) a From: "Henry Gould" > this just in from Rooters: > > Mawines thrust into the so-called poetry "red zone", a highly-shuttled > verbal landscape characterized by intense burbling & > emoting. Correspondents embedded with both Mawine foyces & emenem foyces > report extreme levels of beddy-by tucking-in from Poet Laweate down to > Buffy-Low chat list levels. Gabe Gudding, a highly-oiled & placed > spokespotion for the regime, made fun of all concoyned with his cute quotes > from all over the prop room. Further encounters likely but discounted as > "not serious". > > Henry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 2 10:00:00 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 09:00:00 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] via poet Craig Allen Conrad on Buffalo Po Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030402085917.01a57fd0@mail.ilstu.edu> > > >i'm in Amsterdam with some friends, and last night we were thrown >out of a bar when the Arab bartender got a whiff of our American accents. > >we didn't even HAVE TIME to cause trouble. it was jarring, of course, >but i just couldn't get myself angry about it...which is so unusal for me. > >as a little girl, my friend Uta survived the refugee camps with other >Germans after WWII. for the past five years i've watched and listened >to her deal with the world from the standpoint of coming from a legacy >of tyranny. there's something so amazing about the way Germans express >themselves when conflict arises, a strength in understanding WHY they >are to be held accountable if they do not prevent more disaster. > >i've always believed we Americans have plenty to answer to for the >stress we put on the 3rd World, but it's feeling different since our invasion. >it's feeling WORSE MUCH WORSE and it's coming to terms with the language >we need to now find, a language like modern Germany's. > >anyone else have feelings on this? >shoot me or stand and be shot with me in the new language. >don't be so fucking shy. >CAConrad > >http://poets9for9.blogspot.com/ >p.s. CAConrad's POETRY PAGE (updated 03/28/03) click below: > >http://hometown.aol.com/caconrad13/myhomepage/profile.html > >"I believe in compulsory cannibalism. >If people were forced to eat what they >killed there would be no more war." > --Abbie Hoffman > >"This is a good world... >And war shall fail." > --Kenneth Patchen From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 2 10:21:33 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 10:21:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] George In-Reply-To: <3E8AA427.25120.386F9D@localhost> References: <006d01c2f917$6625ea00$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3E8AB9AD.12844.8C8712@localhost> George is, every pilot knows, The autopilot - you can doze Throughout the flight, or watch the scenery As if your power of flight were plenary And not dependent on machinery. But he's not who the wise demand To bring them safely in to land: It's not enough to poll assistants -- We need Horatios and Tristans If we want to go the distance. Though George can cruise at altitude So we can eat our airline food, A little error still can Hubble you; And lack of smarts has got to trouble you In George the Third or in George W. Yes, George is good for laughs and stuff, But when the going's gotten rough And when the plane begins to shudder And lightnings flash and thunders mutter You need a brain at the stick and rudder. Although we voted the rote one to it, I just don't think that George can do it When the power's failed or flickery When advice is bitch- and bickery When the sneers are snide and snickery Nor when, despite supremest trickery That even shames Nixonian dickery, The airplane dances like Terpsichore. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 2 10:14:17 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 09:14:17 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] another article warning of UK's disgust with US military and Pentagon Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030402091234.01c488a8@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5944-631779,00.html From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 2 10:56:02 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 10:56:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "This Message" Message-ID: This Message has been cleared by the military-- Last week, the war hadn't exactly become more confused or complicated militarily, but had gotten muddier, dustier, harder to cover. New colors were added to two or more people, and Baghdad's palette added some red to our screens. The war began to look bloody, in some instances, violating the rules of embedded journalists, like something dropped from a second-storey window and shattered. Wait a minute, make that third-storey. Clear explanations can contain the seeds of our own ruination, so we'll eschew those, if you'll pardon my French. Shooting at one miserable reporter isn't going to change the picture much, but that isn't exactly the point, now is it? But what is? That's what we've always wanted to know, and hesitated to ask our Shiite and Sunni and Kurdish friends, lest they pick up too much intelligence about our capacity for gathering intelligent intelligence in a smart and straightforward way, with or without tipping our cards. Stay tuned. Don't touch that remote. More after this. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From sellwein at hotmail.com Wed Apr 2 11:51:40 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:51:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] via poet Craig Allen Conrad on Buffalo Po Message-ID: I agree with Abbie Hoffman and agree with Dustin Hoffman, when he said: " We feel we know Dick Silbert, because we are Dick Silbert. We are each other. We are One." A Memorial To Dick Silbert. American Academy Of Arts & Science - 2002. Deborah Russell http://groups.msn.com/ParallelsStudio http://www.worldhaikureview.org i'm in Amsterdam with some friends, and last night we were thrown out of a bar when the Arab bartender got a whiff of our American accents. we didn't even HAVE TIME to cause trouble. it was jarring, of course, but i just couldn't get myself angry about it...which is so unusal for me. as a little girl, my friend Uta survived the refugee camps with other Germans after WWII. for the past five years i've watched and listened to her deal with the world from the standpoint of coming from a legacy of tyranny. there's something so amazing about the way Germans express themselves when conflict arises, a strength in understanding WHY they are to be held accountable if they do not prevent more disaster. i've always believed we Americans have plenty to answer to for the stress we put on the 3rd World, but it's feeling different since our invasion. it's feeling WORSE MUCH WORSE and it's coming to terms with the language we need to now find, a language like modern Germany's. anyone else have feelings on this? shoot me or stand and be shot with me in the new language. don't be so fucking shy. CAConrad http://poets9for9.blogspot.com/ p.s. CAConrad's POETRY PAGE (updated 03/28/03) click below: http://hometown.aol.com/caconrad13/myhomepage/profile.html "I believe in compulsory cannibalism. If people were forced to eat what they killed there would be no more war." --Abbie Hoffman "This is a good world... And war shall fail." --Kenneth Patchen _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Apr 2 11:59:14 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 10:59:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Alan Sondheim In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030331225836.01b106d0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: on 3/31/03 11:49 PM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote: > Hate America! > > > If you think I hate America, I hate America! > I hate America but I will not leave America! > If you think I'm anti-American, I'm anti-American! > I am anti-American but I will not leave America! > Its citizens are denied health care! > Its citizens are dying alone and in poverty! > Its citizens are denied decent education! > Racism is rampant in America! > America is a war-mongering fundamentalist country! > America is a most violent country! > America is leading the planet to World War III! > America thinks there are winners and losers! > America thinks freedom is American freedom! > America thinks liberty is American liberty! > America thinks commerce is American commerce! > America thinks love it or leave it! > America thinks force is always the answer! > America thinks the world is American! > America hates anyone who disagrees! > America is economically bloated! > America pollutes! > America ignores international treaties! > America ignores humanity! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > Hate hate hate hate hate! > I hate America but I will remain in America! > > -- Alan Sondheim A truly bad poem, but honest at least. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Apr 2 12:10:42 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:10:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] America two dollars and twenty sevencents January 17, 1956 Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F1D@mail.ripon.edu> A good classroom exercise might be to put this poem alongside Ginsberg's "America" and try to analyze why, sharing so many of the same ideas and even some similar rhetoric, it simply doesn't hit the mark as effectively. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > > Hate America! > > > > > > If you think I hate America, I hate America! > > I hate America but I will not leave America! > > If you think I'm anti-American, I'm anti-American! > > I am anti-American but I will not leave America! > > Its citizens are denied health care! > > Its citizens are dying alone and in poverty! > > Its citizens are denied decent education! > > Racism is rampant in America! > > America is a war-mongering fundamentalist country! > > America is a most violent country! > > America is leading the planet to World War III! > > America thinks there are winners and losers! > > America thinks freedom is American freedom! > > America thinks liberty is American liberty! > > America thinks commerce is American commerce! > > America thinks love it or leave it! > > America thinks force is always the answer! > > America thinks the world is American! > > America hates anyone who disagrees! > > America is economically bloated! > > America pollutes! > > America ignores international treaties! > > America ignores humanity! > > Hate hate hate hate hate! > > Hate hate hate hate hate! > > Hate hate hate hate hate! > > Hate hate hate hate hate! > > Hate hate hate hate hate! > > I hate America but I will remain in America! > > > > -- Alan Sondheim > > A truly bad poem, but honest at least. > > Paul Lake > > From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 2 12:08:30 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:08:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Alan Sondheim In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { on 3/31/03 11:49 PM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote: { { > Hate America! { > { > { > If you think I hate America, I hate America!{ > { > -- Alan Sondheim { { A truly bad poem, but honest at least. { { Paul Lake Hmm, missed the ironic over/undertones, eh? Hal ?Quien es m?s macho--Saddam Hussein o George W. Bush? Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Faustina1 at aol.com Wed Apr 2 12:39:32 2003 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 12:39:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Introduction Message-ID: <38B9CF50.02E68EFA.023799CC@aol.com> I'm Janet McCann, a Texas poet, and I've been lurking here for awhile--several times almost sent some sort of response to fan various flames, but I thought it would be civilized to introduce myself first. Janet From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 2 12:36:46 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:36:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Alan Sondheim In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Btw, while Gabe posted this as a "poem," Sondheim usually labels his works as postmodern texts. But who cares about labels, eh? Hal "Cross / a border every day, and leave your luggage in the station." --Wendy Battin Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { on 3/31/03 11:49 PM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote: { { { { > Hate America! { { > { { > { { > If you think I hate America, I hate America!{ > { { > -- Alan Sondheim { { { { A truly bad poem, but honest at least. { { { { Paul Lake { { Hmm, missed the ironic over/undertones, eh? { { Hal ?Quien es m?s macho--Saddam Hussein { o George W. Bush? { { Halvard Johnson { =============== { email: halvard at earthlink.net { website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 2 12:43:55 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:43:55 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Introduction Message-ID: <1e0.5e12bfe.2bbc7b5b@cs.com> In a message dated 4/2/2003 11:40:38 AM Central Standard Time, Faustina1 at aol.com writes: > > I'm Janet McCann, a Texas poet, and I've been lurking here for > awhile--several times almost sent some sort of response to fan various > flames, but I thought it would be civilized to introduce myself first. > Janet > ___________________________________________ Hi, Aggie Janet. Flame on. Sam from Beaumont. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 2 12:38:37 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:38:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Introduction In-Reply-To: <38B9CF50.02E68EFA.023799CC@aol.com> Message-ID: . Hi, Janet. You'll find a number of old friends here, as well as some new ones. You may fan flames when ready. Hal { I'm Janet McCann, a Texas poet, and I've been lurking here for awhile--several times almost sent some sort of response { to fan various flames, but I thought it would be civilized to introduce myself first. Janet From daisyf1 at juno.com Wed Apr 2 12:45:29 2003 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:45:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Of Prof. Gudding--3 Questions Message-ID: <20030402.124530.-261691.30.daisyf1@juno.com> Hi Marcus-- I do merely admire Mairead's work from afar--I've never met her (or Gabe). It sure is good! I recommend it. So in my opinion, you can probably trust him on Mike Magee too, your tawdry insinuations aside. Apologies for talking about people in the third person when they're present. Daisy > And has anyone else noticed Prof. Gudding's regular and flattering > paens to Mairead Byrne as if he merely admired her work from afar? > Prof. Gudding seems to be disingenuous in more ways than one. It > makes one wonder what his relationship is with Mike Magee. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 2 12:47:05 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:47:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] US bombs maternity hospital, peace activists, and residential section Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030402114159.01a8f9c0@mail.ilstu.edu> maternity hospital: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030402/80/dwt9d.html peace activists: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=42096982 US helicopters attack residential neighborhood, kill dozens of civilians: http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&col=968350060724&c=Article&cid=1035780288660&call_pageid=968332188854 _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 2 12:57:48 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:57:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] from a blog used by BBC reporters Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030402115529.01a8f9c0@mail.ilstu.edu> "Just occasionally you get to lift the lid on this restricted society - and talk to real people about why the uprisings against Saddam Hussein that coalition forces expected didn't happen. I had an opportunity to talk to some ordinary Iraqis who were out shopping. I asked one man if the Iraqi people thought of this as a war of liberation. He told me, "People in the west need to understand that if even if people here are anti-Saddam, that does not equal pro-American or British." This man was not even a Baath party member, but he said, "I'm an Iraqi, and all I know is my country is being attacked. Why do you expect me to celebrate?" People here do not see it as a war against the regime, they see it as a war against Iraq." Baghdad :: Rageh Omaar :: 1335GMT http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/world/2003/reporters_log/default.stm From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Wed Apr 2 13:22:28 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:22:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Of Prof. Gudding--3 Questions In-Reply-To: <20030402.124530.-261691.30.daisyf1@juno.com> References: <20030402.124530.-261691.30.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <1049307748.3e8b2a64cc8fc@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> > from Marcus: > > And has anyone else noticed Prof. Gudding's regular and flattering > > paens to Mairead Byrne as if he merely admired her work from afar? > > Prof. Gudding seems to be disingenuous in more ways than one. It > > makes one wonder what his relationship is with Mike Magee. > Marcus and all, I must admit I've been deleting alot lately, so busy, but I did randomly catch the above. What the hell? Is this what the conversation has been reduced to, some sort of crazy guilt by association with Gabe hysteria about mine and Mairead's poetry? Ugh. I guess I'll be subpoenaed by Marcus's Un-American Activities Commission (pronounced "moo-ack"). Or has it happened already? For the record I can state unequivocably that I have never slept with Gabe Gudding though his author photo proves him to be an atrtractive man. Peace, -m. From elemenope at icubed.com Wed Apr 2 00:40:00 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:40:00 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] George W. Liberates Iraq. In-Reply-To: <200304021701.h32H16ST026858@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304021701.h32H16ST026858@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: W. defeated a psychopathic tyranny whose statued Saddam hand reached over turdoceans into Professor Gudding's alimentary canal. -- From mandolin at mac.com Wed Apr 2 14:00:51 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:00:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ICRC syas "No Casualties" at maternity hospital Message-ID: <7995848.1049310051272.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Because it has been empty since the beginning of the war, since it was in an insecure area. http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/02/sprj.irq.hospital.attack/index.html The article goes on to mention another ICRC report that a different hospital was full of civilian casualties (not because it had itself been hit). The Iraqis claim that was the result of coalition bombings, the ICRC says "explosions" without saying who did it. CentCom says it's investigating. I must say my respect for the Iraqi government went up a small notch, since they had decided to evacuate this hospital. On the other hand, they've used other hospitals for military command posts, either hiding behind the sick and wounded or attempting to force coalition troops into killing civilians. Do you need cites for that? Gabe, don't you have lesson-plans to write? Or poems, maybe? Or maybe you do, and that's why you never seem to get past the initial propaganda from Baghdad. From sellwein at hotmail.com Wed Apr 2 14:02:31 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:02:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Introduction Message-ID: I'm Janet McCann, a Texas poet, and I've been lurking here for awhile--several times almost sent some sort of response to fan various flames, but I thought it would be civilized to introduce myself first. Janet _______________________________________________ Hi, Janet... Maybe you might appreciate this ditty, maybe not... but thanks for introducing yourself. - Deborah San Antonio Blues I met a poet from San Antonio he said to me, would you like to see my pho tee o tio? he said, see, I done something I never did before took a picture of myself in naked colour if you'd like, I could send you one or another. I said to him, that's a sin depending on the shape you're in but I don't mind life study or fine art I'm just not inclined that way sweetheart so keep your photo on a shelf let's talk writing not yourself why be insistent to indecency can't you see all that matters to me is poetry? He said to me, would you like to see my pho tee o tio? He said, see, I done something I never did before took a picture of myself in the skin. I said I dont know tee o tee o tio but - it sounds to me like that's a sin I don't mind life study or fine art I'm just not inclined that way sweetheart I don't know - but, I think in San Antonio there is a market for that sort of thing on the cell phone e o tio you might try giving them a ring can't you see all that matters to me is poetry? Deborah Russell, 2001 _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mandolin at mac.com Wed Apr 2 14:18:17 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:18:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Introduction Message-ID: <4109296.1049311097061.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Wednesday, April 02, 2003, at 12:39PM, wrote: >I'm Janet McCann, a Texas poet, and I've been lurking here for awhile--several times almost sent >some sort of response to fan various flames, but I thought it would be civilized to introduce >myself first. Janet Welcome aboard, Janet. There's more talk about poetry here than on some other lists, but it doesn't hurt to have access to a flame-retardant suit. I'm not sure what state to say I'm from--born in Kentucky, college in Ohio, 18 years and my family in North Carolina, working in Maryland because there's nothing for me to do in NC. an old poem of mine: Waking Up to What? There's no cock crowing -- no one fed The flock this year. They've flown the coop, Which I can't find. I'd stay in bed, But my mind's a boiling soup -- Stone soup. Some soldier made that, Right? Who stoops to conquer -- See? A stew! For God's sake find my hat! I can't chew the stones the infantry Grinds beneath its blistered feet, A black wreath hung on every door, Trumpets blaring out defeat Of sleep. I'm staring at the floor -- Look up! Look up! See -- there's the sun. I'm cooking stones but there's the sun. From mbyrne at risd.edu Wed Apr 2 14:30:04 2003 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:30:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Of Prof. Gudding--3 Questions Message-ID: Thanks Daisy for your kind remarks. Mairead Mair?ad Byrne Assistant Professor of English Rhode Island School of Design Providence, RI 02903 www.wildhoneypress.com www.maireadbyrne.blogspot.com >>> daisyf1 at juno.com 04/02/03 12:51 PM >>> Hi Marcus-- I do merely admire Mairead's work from afar--I've never met her (or Gabe). It sure is good! I recommend it. So in my opinion, you can probably trust him on Mike Magee too, your tawdry insinuations aside. Apologies for talking about people in the third person when they're present. Daisy > And has anyone else noticed Prof. Gudding's regular and flattering > paens to Mairead Byrne as if he merely admired her work from afar? > Prof. Gudding seems to be disingenuous in more ways than one. It > makes one wonder what his relationship is with Mike Magee. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 2 15:00:21 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:00:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Alan Sondheim Message-ID: <2b.3ca1f28e.2bbc9b55@cs.com> In a message dated 4/2/2003 11:46:25 AM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > Btw, while Gabe posted this as a "poem," Sondheim usually > labels his works as postmodern texts. But who cares about > labels, eh? Gosh, that makes all the difference in the world. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j-mccann1 at tamu.edu Wed Apr 2 15:08:06 2003 From: j-mccann1 at tamu.edu (Janet McCann) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 14:08:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Introduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030402140806.009494b0@neo.tamu.edu> Thanks--glad to meet old friends here! And I liked the San A. ditty--now if you could just do something with College Station-- But meeting friends on the list diminishes my ability/desire to throw oil on flames... Will continue to lurk until I find something poetical to take issue with, I guess. From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 2 15:15:25 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:15:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Alan Sondheim In-Reply-To: <2b.3ca1f28e.2bbc9b55@cs.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Sam. I knew *someone* around here would care, but couldn't remember who. Hal Btw, while Gabe posted this as a "poem," Sondheim usually labels his works as postmodern texts. But who cares about labels, eh? Gosh, that makes all the difference in the world. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 2 16:04:32 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 16:04:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Magee In-Reply-To: <1049307748.3e8b2a64cc8fc@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <20030402.124530.-261691.30.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <3E8B0A10.1496.1C69696@localhost> > Marcus and all, I must admit I've been deleting alot lately, so busy, but I did > randomly catch the above. What the hell? Is this what the conversation has > been reduced to, some sort of crazy guilt by association with Gabe hysteria > about mine and Mairead's poetry? Ugh....< Oh, Gabe is doing his standard character-assassination name-calling of his perceived enemies on the one hand and his standard puffery of his friends on the other; I'm just twitting him about his apparently habitual use of disingenuousness as a standard tool in his rhetorical armory. Too bad you missed Gabe's previous claims. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 16:11:14 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:11:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems By Others: Tooting My Own Horn Message-ID: <20030402211114.60846.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Howdy all, Just a bit of self-aggrandizing, hope that no one takes offense. http://www.gwu.edu/~gwreview/poem1.html One of my latest. Jeff Newberry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Wed Apr 2 16:21:15 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:21:15 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems By Others: Tooting My Own Horn References: <20030402211114.60846.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <019601c2f95d$cd0f4540$5b15e589@devbox> > Just a bit of self-aggrandizing, hope that no one takes offense. > > http://www.gwu.edu/~gwreview/poem1.html > > One of my latest. And what does THAT have to do with the war? Are you sure you have the right list? :) c -- Chris Lott From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 2 16:28:06 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 16:28:06 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems By Others: Tooting My Own Horn Message-ID: <1ea.5b30b85.2bbcafe6@cs.com> In a message dated 4/2/2003 3:12:34 PM Central Standard Time, jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: > Howdy all, > > Just a bit of self-aggrandizing, hope that no one takes offense. > > http://www.gwu.edu/~gwreview/poem1.html > > One of my latest. > > Jeff Newberry > > > > > How dare you! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Apr 2 16:28:59 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:28:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Introduction Message-ID: <20030402212900.132444778@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 2 16:41:47 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:41:47 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Sarah Manguso Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030402153521.01acd920@mail.ilstu.edu> [can't do right justification w/ my email program, but as this is a prose poem, it should be right justified {just like the worst kind of American feels: right and justified}] WHAT WE MISS Who says it's so easy to save a life? In the middle of an interview for the job you might get you see the cat from the window of the seventeenth floor just as he's crossing the street against traffic, just as you're answering a question about your worst character flaw and lying that you are too careful. What if you keep seeing the cat at every moment you are unable to save him? Failure is more like this than like duels and marathons. Everything can be saved, and bad timing prevents it. Every minute, you are answering the question and looking out the window of the church to see your one great love blinded by the glare, crossing the street, alone. (2002) from GREAT AMERICAN PROSE POEMS: FROM POE TO THE PRESENT (Sriibner: April, 2003, edited by David Lehman) From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 2 16:44:31 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:44:31 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Swiss Foreign Ministry Documents USUK War Crimes in Iraq Invasion Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030402154254.01c68020@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.islam-online.net/english/News/2003-04/01/article06.shtml Also USUK forces bomb mosques in Iraq: http://www.islam-online.net/english/news/2003-04/02/article06.shtml From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 2 16:48:20 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:48:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Donald Rumsfeld Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030402154618.01c6dd08@mail.ilstu.edu> The Unknown As we know, There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know There are known unknowns. That is to say We know there are some things We do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, The ones we don't know We don't know. ?Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing Glass Box You know, it's the old glass box at the? At the gas station, Where you're using those little things Trying to pick up the prize, And you can't find it. It's? And it's all these arms are going down in there, And so you keep dropping it And picking it up again and moving it, But? Some of you are probably too young to remember those? Those glass boxes, But? But they used to have them At all the gas stations When I was a kid. ?Dec. 6, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing A Confession Once in a while, I'm standing here, doing something. And I think, "What in the world am I doing here?" It's a big surprise. ?May 16, 2001, interview with the New York Times Happenings You're going to be told lots of things. You get told things every day that don't happen. It doesn't seem to bother people, they don't? It's printed in the press. The world thinks all these things happen. They never happened. Everyone's so eager to get the story Before in fact the story's there That the world is constantly being fed Things that haven't happened. All I can tell you is, It hasn't happened. It's going to happen. ?Feb. 28, 2003, Department of Defense briefing The Digital Revolution Oh my goodness gracious, What you can buy off the Internet In terms of overhead photography! A trained ape can know an awful lot Of what is going on in this world, Just by punching on his mouse For a relatively modest cost! ?June 9, 2001, following European trip The Situation Things will not be necessarily continuous. The fact that they are something other than perfectly continuous Ought not to be characterized as a pause. There will be some things that people will see. There will be some things that people won't see. And life goes on. ?Oct. 12, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing Clarity I think what you'll find, I think what you'll find is, Whatever it is we do substantively, There will be near-perfect clarity As to what it is. And it will be known, And it will be known to the Congress, And it will be known to you, Probably before we decide it, But it will be known. ?Feb. 28, 2003, Department of Defense briefing http://slate.msn.com/id/2081042/ From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 2 17:00:28 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 16:00:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Human Rights Watch accuses US forces of using cluster bombs Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030402155803.01c759c0@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0402-07.htm "The US military last used ground-based cluster munitions in the 1991 Gulf War. More than 4,000 Iraqi and Kuwaiti civilians were killed or wounded by the duds after the war. During the war, 80 US casualties were reported from the duds." ____________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sellwein at hotmail.com Wed Apr 2 17:53:26 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 17:53:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Donald Rumsfeld Message-ID: This sums up government intelligence doesn't it? :o( ************** The Unknown As we know, There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know There are known unknowns. That is to say We know there are some things We do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, The ones we don't know We don't know. ?Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing Glass Box You know, it's the old glass box at the? At the gas station, Where you're using those little things Trying to pick up the prize, And you can't find it. It's? And it's all these arms are going down in there, And so you keep dropping it And picking it up again and moving it, But? Some of you are probably too young to remember those? Those glass boxes, But? But they used to have them At all the gas stations When I was a kid. ?Dec. 6, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing A Confession Once in a while, I'm standing here, doing something. And I think, "What in the world am I doing here?" It's a big surprise. ?May 16, 2001, interview with the New York Times Happenings You're going to be told lots of things. You get told things every day that don't happen. It doesn't seem to bother people, they don't? It's printed in the press. The world thinks all these things happen. They never happened. Everyone's so eager to get the story Before in fact the story's there That the world is constantly being fed Things that haven't happened. All I can tell you is, It hasn't happened. It's going to happen. ?Feb. 28, 2003, Department of Defense briefing The Digital Revolution Oh my goodness gracious, What you can buy off the Internet In terms of overhead photography! A trained ape can know an awful lot Of what is going on in this world, Just by punching on his mouse For a relatively modest cost! ?June 9, 2001, following European trip The Situation Things will not be necessarily continuous. The fact that they are something other than perfectly continuous Ought not to be characterized as a pause. There will be some things that people will see. There will be some things that people won't see. And life goes on. ?Oct. 12, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing Clarity I think what you'll find, I think what you'll find is, Whatever it is we do substantively, There will be near-perfect clarity As to what it is. And it will be known, And it will be known to the Congress, And it will be known to you, Probably before we decide it, But it will be known. ?Feb. 28, 2003, Department of Defense briefing http://slate.msn.com/id/2081042/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Apr 2 18:07:55 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:07:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Donald Rumsfeld Message-ID: <20030402230757.19B524B3F@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Apr 2 18:09:53 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:09:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Donald Rumsfeld Message-ID: <20030402230953.1D26146BD@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 2 19:00:50 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:00:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Magee References: <20030402.124530.-261691.30.daisyf1@juno.com> <3E8B0A10.1496.1C69696@localhost> Message-ID: <001901c2f974$17af9260$7902fea9@j1c1k6> From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Apr 2 19:22:04 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 17:22:04 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] update: bloglets Message-ID: <3E8B7EAC.B0E210ED@earthlink.net> 3/24 or 25/03 3:05 p.m. (i think) I have no idea. A guy at work says nobody has the right to be right. Whatever that means. I broke out the mountain bike and got some mud on it before collapsing under a metal umbrella at Starbucks. I kept having to unstick the lycra from my thighs. Embarrassing sometimes. My neighbor has this campaign looking sign in her yard that says "Proud to be an American" under a rectangular unwaving flag but I bet you can't even read it from the street. My reading group has switched to movies and we watched The Deer Hunter, Manchurian Candidate, and Mr. Roberts and none of them came close to fiction. How about that Michael Moore? Anyway, today I managed to catch a dove in the yard and squeezed it until it was limp. Maegann did a video of it. comments to UrmeIamU at aol.con =========================================== 3/27/03 1:02 a.m. So quiet here that I can't go to sleep. I've been thinking about this story I read somewhere about how music was dangerous in the 18th century. You know, especially if it was foreign or performed by women or men who sang like women and that it affected people. What's with that? I have this new cd by Selena Long. She has to-die-for hair and kind of like olive skin, and her voice is like one of those women who work in bars or countries where people still smoke (yuk). Anyway, she's not suspicious or anything even if she was born before Desert Storm. Rap is so highschool. If you take away the music it's like Dr. Zeuss on drugs. I'd put on some Selena but the neighbors would complain. And the news isn't the same if you turn it down low. How can you whisper about that shit? ============================================= 3/29/03 2:42 p.m. Took my friends Maegann and M. Arum to the zoo this morning. Saw the Galapagos turtles mating! The he-turtle actually grunted but we could tell it was going to take forever, so we left them to see monkey island, then the elephants, who were far away in the shade. The lions and tigers were asleep. We skipped all those hoofed things because, after all, they're just horses in costume. The snake house was boring as usual, but Maegann likes those glass cages with phony desert. M. Arum's favorite places are the snack bar and the gift shop, where you can get a 2 inch long zebra, a 6 inch long zebra, a foot long zebra, and a huge stuffed zebra as tall as me. As a matter of fact, you can get almost any animal any size you want. M. Arum is fascinated by the idea of people somewhere making all those animals. He's so naive sometimes. One of the people at the registers had a tiny portable tv on with embedded reporters. An eight inch diagonal war. Can't people find something else to talk about? On the way home we played act-out-the-signs and M. Arum gave me "shoulder work." Maegann did a retarted kid when she saw "slow. children crossing." I slumped over the wheel when I saw the drawing for left turn crossed out. comments to UrmeIamU at aol.con ============================================= 3/29/03 4:05 p.m. They really ought to hire me. Did you play burn-the-ants when you were a kid? My dad had lighter fluid, so we used to make a ring around the ant nest. Then we lit it and all the ants went back to their little mound and down the hole. Then we'd pour lighter fluid in the hole and light that. Now, as a grown up, I see that was really stupid because we would have needed gallons of lighter fluid and a pump to get that fluid into all those ant tunnels. So, they probably escaped. What I'm saying is that to get this over with they should have skipped all that WW II stuff and just dropped troops all around B-dad. No bombing. Just a pretend firefight. Then burn all the enemy with bombs and stuff BEFORE they got back to the ant hole. The rest of their guys in biblical cities would have said uh oh and come running back to B-dad but the copters and warthogs could have picked them off before they got there. As for the main guy, well, there's Elvis and Osama and others. Yours, from central command. comments to UrmeIamU at aol.con ============================================== 3/30/03 10:10 a.m. All I want to say is that I'm as blank as a Baghdad nightscape without an explosion. Plus, I wanted to write 3/30/03 (I missed 2/2/02). Something big really ought to happen on these special symmetrical days. The day is young, but I think people are getting tired of living with that waiting-for-the-other-shoe-to-drop feeling. We need news blackout days, except for stuff like seeing the first robin of spring, which is both old and new. I mean, there's always been a first robin of spring for someone somewhere since robins and people existed simultaneously. But it gives us a little flutter. I'm such a hypocrit. I'm going to watch CNN off and on today, especially as I don't have to go to Home Depot or Costco today. comments to UrmeIamU at aol.con ============================================= 4/1/03 6:40 p.m. Everything's going according to plan. Those people who don't think so haven't seen the plan. We've seen the plan and everything's going according to it. The plan is broad and flexible. It allows changes to the plan. That's why everything's going according to plan. We can allow changes in the plan, that's why it's a plan. Plans allow changes so that everything will be going according to them. We are part of the plan. comments to UrmeIamU at aol.con ============================================== 4/2/03 4:05 Souls file for bankruptcy protection. All debts forgiven until souls are able to construct plan for solvency. Under new organizational plan, souls expect to repay debts by 2050, downsize to 1775 levels by 2045, and and to change name from "souls" to "IR Inc." ("Individual Responsibility Inc.") to reflect new corporate paradigm. comments to UrmeIamU at aol.con From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 2 20:19:49 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 19:19:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Magee In-Reply-To: <001901c2f974$17af9260$7902fea9@j1c1k6> References: <20030402.124530.-261691.30.daisyf1@juno.com> <3E8B0A10.1496.1C69696@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030402191751.0115ed10@mail.ilstu.edu> Contrary to what Bob says, I did not write the below. Would appreciate folks (Bob, Marcus, Mike S., eg) not putting words in my mouth. Thanks. g > From Gabriel Gudding: > > > > Marcus and all, I must admit I've been deleting alot lately, so busy, >but I did > > > randomly catch the above. What the hell? Is this what the conversation >has > > > been reduced to, > >"reduced to!" I love it! > >--Bob G. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From sellwein at hotmail.com Wed Apr 2 20:39:20 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 20:39:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Donald Rumsfeld Message-ID: Lol, oh brother, let me tell you this. Are you listening??? The more I know the less I need to and want to know, you know? I've got a passport, and I'm not afraid to use it. Deborah, ************** I know one thing for certain and that is that I know nothing for certain. Not knowing anything for certain, I feel somewhat of a delicacy in articulating. Bob Poetry Catamaran "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" Robert R. Cobb AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. http://rrcobb.tripod.com --- "Deborah Russell" wrote: > >This sums up government intelligence doesn't it? > >:o( > >************** > >The Unknown > >As we know, >There are known knowns. >There are things we know we know. >We also know >There are known unknowns. >That is to say >We know there are some things >We do not know. >But there are also unknown unknowns, >The ones we don't know >We don't know. >Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing > > >Glass Box > >You know, it's the old glass box at the >At the gas station, >Where you're using those little things >Trying to pick up the prize, >And you can't find it. >It's >And it's all these arms are going down in there, >And so you keep dropping it >And picking it up again and moving it, >But >Some of you are probably too young to remember those >Those glass boxes, >But >But they used to have them >At all the gas stations >When I was a kid. >Dec. 6, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing > > >A Confession > >Once in a while, >I'm standing here, doing something. >And I think, >"What in the world am I doing here?" >It's a big surprise. >May 16, 2001, interview with the New York Times > > >Happenings > >You're going to be told lots of things. >You get told things every day that don't happen. >It doesn't seem to bother people, they don't >It's printed in the press. >The world thinks all these things happen. >They never happened. >Everyone's so eager to get the story >Before in fact the story's there >That the world is constantly being fed >Things that haven't happened. >All I can tell you is, >It hasn't happened. >It's going to happen. >Feb. 28, 2003, Department of Defense briefing > > >The Digital Revolution > >Oh my goodness gracious, >What you can buy off the Internet >In terms of overhead photography! >A trained ape can know an awful lot >Of what is going on in this world, >Just by punching on his mouse >For a relatively modest cost! >June 9, 2001, following European trip > > >The Situation > >Things will not be necessarily continuous. >The fact that they are something other than perfectly continuous >Ought not to be characterized as a pause. >There will be some things that people will see. >There will be some things that people won't see. >And life goes on. >Oct. 12, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing > > >Clarity > >I think what you'll find, >I think what you'll find is, >Whatever it is we do substantively, >There will be near-perfect clarity >As to what it is. >And it will be known, >And it will be known to the Congress, >And it will be known to you, >Probably before we decide it, >But it will be known. >Feb. 28, 2003, Department of Defense briefing > >http://slate.msn.com/id/2081042/ > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > >Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet > >Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide >Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From MillB at aol.com Wed Apr 2 21:15:32 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 21:15:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Donald Rumsfeld Message-ID: <93.2c8a74ab.2bbcf344@aol.com> The first poems reminds me of this----- "You can fool some of the people, all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time." ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? -- Abraham Lincoln -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sellwein at hotmail.com Wed Apr 2 22:56:09 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 22:56:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Donald Rumsfeld Message-ID: I can't believe my mother stole that line from Abraham Lincoln. I suppose it wasn't her that said: " When a person cannot deceive himself the chances are against his being able to deceive other people." ************* The first poems reminds me of this----- "You can fool some of the people, all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time." ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? -- Abraham Lincoln _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From JackTar at aol.com Wed Apr 2 23:14:20 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 23:14:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN Message-ID: <137.1d8c17bc.2bbd0f1c@aol.com> In a message dated 4/2/2003 7:58:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, bardo at optonline.net writes: > The policy itself stinks of disingenuousness and hypocrisy, and we should > abandon it and return to diplomacy and genuine consensus-building by > supplying Iraq with food and medicine while isolating it economically with > a boycott on its exports. And leave the torturers and murderers in place? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Wed Apr 2 11:12:49 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 00:12:49 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Donald Rumsfeld (Gabriel Gudding) In-Reply-To: <200304022259.h32Mx3ST029773@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304022259.h32Mx3ST029773@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Professor Gudding found that he couldn't out think Donald Rumsfeld So the next best thing was to pull a Pee Wee Herman comeback: The Professor merely mirrored back everything as it was said verbatim. In this way Gudding could pretend he understood Donald Rumsfeld And that he could believe that this man whose shoes he couldn't fill Wasn't really in the eyes of history in the final analysis better than him. -- From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 3 05:16:38 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 05:16:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Magee References: <20030402.124530.-261691.30.daisyf1@juno.com><3E8B0A10.1496.1C69696@localhost> <5.1.1.6.0.20030402191751.0115ed10@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <002d01c2f9ca$1e88ff80$c9a3fea9@j1c1k6> > Contrary to what Bob says, I did not write the below. Would appreciate > folks (Bob, Marcus, Mike S., eg) not putting words in my mouth. Thanks. g Evidently, I rushed. Whoever said it made me laugh pretty loud. --Bob G. > > From Gabriel Gudding: > > > > > > Marcus and all, I must admit I've been deleting alot lately, so busy, > >but I did > > > > randomly catch the above. What the hell? Is this what the conversation > >has > > > > been reduced to, > > > >"reduced to!" I love it! > > > >--Bob G. > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bardo at optonline.net Thu Apr 3 06:32:53 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 06:32:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <137.1d8c17bc.2bbd0f1c@aol.com> Message-ID: <007a01c2f9d4$c48d6920$6d94c044@MULDER> ----- Original Message ----- From: JackTar at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 11:14 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In a message dated 4/2/2003 7:58:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, bardo at optonline.net writes: The policy itself stinks of disingenuousness and hypocrisy, and we should abandon it and return to diplomacy and genuine consensus-building by supplying Iraq with food and medicine while isolating it economically with a boycott on its exports. And leave the torturers and murderers in place? DZ: If we had taken the approach I suggested above immediately after (preferably rather than) the first Gulf War, convincing a large majority of nations to acknowledge Saddam's tyrannical nature and to refuse to trade with him, yet providing sufficient food and medicine to minimize the suffering of the Iraqi people, we could have drained his regime of its power and whatever legitimacy it may have pretended to possess. We've had few qualms about leaving torturers and murders in power in other countries when it has suited us (from Batista's Cuba to the Shah's Iran to Saddam when he fought the Ayatollah's Iran to various slime to whom our blind eye turns even today). To complain that the strategy I suggest would "leave the torturers and murderers in place" implies that I might favor doing that, which I certainly do not, and ignores the hoary practice of our government's doing exactly that. It seems to me that a non-violent solution trumps a bloody one. Japan, for example, got to keep its emperor, who presided over the rape of Nanking and other atrocities; letting him stay on as head of state probably saved millions of lives. You may object that we occupied Japan, and that I do not recommend occupying Iraq; however, we may have pacified Japan simply by requiring the emperor to order the people to surrender and to accept a less visible American presence or influence than our military. Certainly, a non-violent solution demonstrates a greater and a more acceptable kind of authority in the world than our own exercise of brutality. It should not have proven very difficult to unite even the Arab world against a secular tyrant like Saddam Hussein if we could have done so without killing Muslims and without appearing--however incorrectly--to wage war against Islam. He kills Muslims; we should not--unless,of course, they clearly attack us (and even then, economic isolation seems preferable to annihilation). If "war is business conducted by other means," perhaps peacemaking should involve a concerted refusal to conduct business by any means. Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lattaj at umich.edu Thu Apr 3 08:20:44 2003 From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 08:20:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading in Ann Arbor Message-ID: For any in the area, I will be reading out of and signing copies of my new book _Breeze_ at Shaman Drum Bookshop, 311-315 South State St., in Ann Arbor, on Tuesday, April 8, at 8 pm. John Latta From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Apr 3 08:43:13 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 08:43:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <007a01c2f9d4$c48d6920$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3E8BF421.9125.211668@localhost> Daniel Zimmerman: > ... It seems to me that a non-violent solution trumps a bloody > one.<< In every case? You'd rather have a non-violent and injust solution than a bloody but just one? It seems to me that whether an act is violent or not is simply not the most important criteria in evaluating actions. Only where there are two solutions that are just would it be valuable, it seems to me, to apply a secondary principle. Or are you saying that non-violence is your primary principle, and you'd rather have unjust non-violence than just violence? Dan Zimmerman: > Japan, for example, got to keep its emperor ... we may have > pacified Japan simply by requiring the emperor to order the people > to surrender and to accept a less visible American presence or > influence than our military.<< There is a great difference between the legitimacy of an emperor who is both a secular and a religious authority over a homogenous people for 800 years and the legitimacy of a secular tyrant who rules by fear and torture over a diverse population cobbled together by fiat 80 years ago. Your analogy simply doesn't hold up. Saddam hasn't got the moral authority to remain as head of state after surrendering. Even if he were offered that deal he would trumpet it as another victory over the US and the non-Islamic west, and would promptly set about to subvert and undermine any deal he signed, and rebuild his military if there were no occupation forces to prevent him. There is, by his very public record, nothing Saddam won't lie about and no agreement he won't cheat on. You're suggesting that the US trust a man as untrustworthy as that? Dan Zimmerman: > Certainly, a non-violent solution demonstrates a greater and a > more acceptable kind of authority in the world than our own > exercise of brutality. It should not have proven very difficult to > unite even the Arab world against a secular tyrant like Saddam > Hussein if we could have done so without killing Muslims and > without appearing--however incorrectly--to wage war against Islam.< Here I can only agree: bin Laden and Hussein were competitors for the same position of savior of the Islamic world. Bin Laden regarded Hussein as a western-influenced secularist who was willing to sell out Islam for his own personal power; Hussein regarded bin Laden as a loose cannon zealot determined to wage religious war without regard to power politics. That the Bush League folks in charge in the US were not able to set two such people against each other and let them fight it out without US interference, and then step in when the weakened winner was exhausted from the fray betrays such an appallingly ineptitude in foreign policy as to be characterizable as "stupid". Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Apr 3 09:00:39 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 08:00:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Intl Criminal Court petition Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030403075500.01b43d68@mail.ilstu.edu> A petition that the US be brought before the ICC (which the US has refused to recognize) http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/whatsnew/action/actionAlert.asp "To: International Criminal Court: On March 21, 2003, the US, UK and other forces launched a massive air strike against Iraq as part of the US military plan, 'shock and awe.' In the first 48 hours of this attack some 3,000 precision-guided bombs were fired at or near Baghdad, a densely populated city of 5.6 million... It is illegal too to launch indiscriminate as well as disproportionate attacks and acts intended to spread terror among the civilian population. The Rome Statute specifically prohibits intentionally directing attacks against civilians and civilian infrastructure. The so-called 'shock and awe' tactics described above constitute a war crime in violation of the Rome Statute... I respectfully request that you initiate an investigation into this situation under Article 15 of the Rome Statute against all persons subject to the jurisdiction of the Court. This should include investigation of all officials involved, including all heads of States taking part in the war." Swiss Foreign Ministry begins to document US war crimes in Iraq: http://www.islam-online.net/english/News/2003-04/01/article06.shtml "The US military last used ground-based cluster munitions in the 1991 Gulf War. More than 4,000 Iraqi and Kuwaiti civilians were killed or wounded by the duds after the war. During the war, 80 US casualties were reported from the duds." http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0402-07.htm From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Apr 3 09:17:26 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 09:17:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Centcom Briefing Sonnet" Message-ID: Centcom Briefing Sonnet (In progress) ? entered Iraq to remove the regime. There is much pain there. Across the vastnesses The coalition remains robust, with 49 countries between us, small birds carry messages. The sky, supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom. We continue wanting, above all, to be blue, to remember those who have attacked regime targets over the last 48 hours in Baghdad and several cities throughout the country, as everlasting fire pours through space. Men dying in precision attacks against surface-to-surface missiles as Republican Guard forces return, to feed them, bear their children, This is a strike against an Iraqi television service building in Karbala, and it was attacked two nights ago. This is a Ba'ath Party headquarters building in al-Hillah. This is a military headquarters building in western Iraq. A little too much beauty is so hard to bear?a fuel truck in a revetement near al Kut, an ammo truck near An Najaf, targets of opportunity, as this next video shows. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Apr 3 10:36:56 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 09:36:56 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem by Andrew Motion Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F26@mail.ripon.edu> A poem by Andrew Motion on the war, demonstrating, I'd say by negative example, how challenging it is to write occasional poetry, all the more so when the subject is so vast, emotionally charged, and complicated. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > Regime change > A poem by Andrew Motion on Iraq > Advancing down the road from Niniveh > > Death paused a while and said 'Now listen here. > > You see the names of places roundabout? > > They're mine now, and I've turned them inside out. > > Take Eden, further south: at dawn today > > I ordered up my troops to tear away > > its walls and gates so everyone can see > > that gorgeous fruit which dangles from its tree. > > You want it, don't you? Go and eat it then, > > and lick your lips, and pick the same again. > > Take Tigris and Euphrates; once they ran > > through childhood-coloured slats of sand and sun. > > Not any more they don't; I've filled them up > > with countless different kinds of human crap. > > Take Babylon, the palace sprouting flowers > > which sweetened empires in their peaceful hours - > > I've found a different way to scent the air: > > already it's a by-word for despair. > > Which leaves Baghdad - the star-tipped minarets, > > the marble courts and halls, the mirage-heat. > > These places, and the ancient things you know, > > you won't know soon. I'm working on it now.' > > > Thursday April 3, 2003 > The Guardian > Guardian Unlimited ? Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003 > > From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Apr 3 10:41:20 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 10:41:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New York Morning Message-ID: Awake again, after breakfast, Lynda and I sit in the living room and turn on the war with the sound off. Paula Zahn, the Doris Day of cable news, moves her lips and eyebrows in the Time-Life Building studio, where behind her, beyond her right shoulder, some doofus on the sidewalk is thumbing his cellphone, calling his girlfriend or wife or whatever to let her know that he's on TV. Then John King comes on and moves his lips about George W. Bush, who's in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, to entertain the troops and their families. The cat missed his catbox again, and I sort of shunned him for a while, but now we're friends again, though he's off somewhere sleeping, being a nocturnal sort of guy. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From elemenope at icubed.com Wed Apr 2 21:46:09 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 10:46:09 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Gabriel Gudding: Master Smirker. In-Reply-To: <200304022259.h32Mx3ST029773@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304022259.h32Mx3ST029773@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Professor Gudding stands with the enemy: "islam-on-line." Professor Gudding stands with those who take mosques and use them as military hideouts for terrorists. Gudding protects those who run the torture chambers, he never denounces them, he smirks and lies about his fellow citizens. The car that ran the gate had been commandeered by the terrorists. As the facts emerge about that tragic episode, examine each of the details. You will see clearly the evil intent behind those who planned the suicide attack and thus the evil intent behind Prof. Gudding's misreporting of that event. But, Gudding is a Smirker, he will never recognize: it's all attack with a lie and a quip with him. Professor Gudding creates harm to Iraqi people. As Iraqis realize their coming liberation many at this moment come forward and greet with friendship coalition warriors, but this liberation doesn't matter to Prof. Gudding. Nonsense and lies from Prof. Gudding, master Fifth Column seditionist, he compromises your integrity as you submit to his presumptive mastery of the moral purpose of poetry. Americans troops are receiving warm receptions in Iraq, they kneel on one knee before crowds of Iraqi citizens and people are calming down. But Professor Gudding will never report this fact. Strange, because millions of CNN viewers saw this happen! But in Prof. G's world, such an event couldn't happen because he doesn't want it to happen because he is an enemy of his own people, the American people and their leadership. Professor Gudding rides with other Radical Dissidents like Columbia's Nicolas De Genova and Pitt's Ed Oechester: enemies of their own country who hide behind the academic veil. Professor Gabriel Gudding: Pee Wee Didactical Smirker, liar and purveyor of nonsense. > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 9 >Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:44:31 -0600 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: Gabriel Gudding >Subject: [New-Poetry] Swiss Foreign Ministry Documents USUK War Crimes in Iraq > Invasion >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://www.islam-online.net/english/News/2003-04/01/article06.shtml > > >Also USUK forces bomb mosques in Iraq: >http://www.islam-online.net/english/news/2003-04/02/article06.shtml -- From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Apr 3 11:00:25 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:00:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Tate, "So Much Alike" Message-ID: So Much Alike When I got home I could tell somebody had been in my house. Something about the air was different. I checked the kitchen cupboards and, sure enough, a can of creamed corn was missing. I always keep ten on hand in case of emergencies and now there were nine. In my study the lead in my pencil had been dulled and a piece of paper was missing. In my bedroom there was a crease in the bedspread that wasn't there this morning when I left. And a page had been turned in the novel I was reading. In my workshop in the basement some nails had been rearranged, rather attrac- tively, I thought. I spent most of the evening going over the house with a magnifying glass wondering just who the hell I thought I was, adrift in the minutiae, and then happy to be anybody at all, worthy of a visitor from time to time. --James Tate in *Tin House* Vol. 2, No. 3 Spring 2001 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From lshinn at sas.upenn.edu Thu Apr 3 11:07:47 2003 From: lshinn at sas.upenn.edu (Leslie Shinn) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:07:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New York Morning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Hal, I love you, and so value these too-infrequent bulletins from your day-to-day. A perfect prose poem. I am so happy to live in the tri-state area you serve. Leslie >Awake again, after breakfast, Lynda and I sit in the living >room and turn on the war with the sound off. Paula Zahn, >the Doris Day of cable news, moves her lips and eyebrows >in the Time-Life Building studio, where behind her, beyond >her right shoulder, some doofus on the sidewalk is thumbing >his cellphone, calling his girlfriend or wife or whatever to let >her know that he's on TV. Then John King comes on and >moves his lips about George W. Bush, who's in Camp Lejeune, >North Carolina, to entertain the troops and their families. >The cat missed his catbox again, and I sort of shunned him >for a while, but now we're friends again, though he's off >somewhere sleeping, being a nocturnal sort of guy. > >Hal Serving the tri-state area. > >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Apr 3 11:43:51 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:43:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Side Bar References: <1ca.6724073.2bba8dac@aol.com> Message-ID: <005e01c2fa00$3549acc0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Seems like all the great quotes about teaching and learning are about doubting and rejectind, doesn't it? Here's one from Roethke: "A poet is judged, in part, by the influences he resists." Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: MillB at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:37 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Side Bar Greetings all: I'm putting together a philosophy of teaching section for my syllabus and would like to ask if anyone has quotes or gems about the teaching of writing, or about learning (in general). I found this one in the Writers Chronicle yesterday morning from Ren? Descartes, more famous for his "I think, therefore I am," statement: ""If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." Thanks in advance. Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Apr 3 12:18:29 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 12:18:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Gabriel Gudding: In-Reply-To: References: <200304022259.h32Mx3ST029773@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3E8C2695.3591.E6346B@localhost> On 3 Apr 2003 at 10:46, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > Professor Gudding stands with the enemy: "islam-on-line." ...<< This is just as uselessly ad hominem as any of Prof Gudding's own ad hominem attacks. There's no room for this kind of thing in civil discussion. Let us agree that Prof Gudding is misinformed and his attempts to castigate US soldiers are disingenuous in the face of even the evidence he himself presents. But there's no need to call him names. Marcus Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Apr 3 12:26:14 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:26:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Introduction References: <38B9CF50.02E68EFA.023799CC@aol.com> Message-ID: <023701c2fa06$20a7f0a0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Hi Janet, welcome back aboard, and I'm all for the idea of fanning poetic flames. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 12:39 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Introduction > I'm Janet McCann, a Texas poet, and I've been lurking here for awhile--several times almost sent some sort of response to fan various flames, but I thought it would be civilized to introduce myself first. Janet > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mandolin at mac.com Thu Apr 3 12:35:04 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 12:35:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Professor Gabriel Gudding: Message-ID: <3390842.1049391304302.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Thursday, April 03, 2003, at 12:18PM, Marcus Bales wrote: >On 3 Apr 2003 at 10:46, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: >> Professor Gudding stands with the enemy: "islam-on-line." ...<< > >This is just as uselessly ad hominem as any of Prof Gudding's own ad >hominem attacks. > >There's no room for this kind of thing in civil discussion. Let us >agree that Prof Gudding is misinformed and his attempts to castigate >US soldiers are disingenuous in the face of even the evidence he >himself presents. But there's no need to call him names. > >Marcus > > And let me offer an apology for my initial comment on Gabe's posts. I still think he's desperately wrong; I should not have said he was either a dupe or a liar. From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Apr 3 12:41:38 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:41:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems By Others: Tooting My Own Horn References: <20030402211114.60846.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <025101c2fa08$47b4d170$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Jeff -- I hope this sounds like the compliment I mean it to be. It reminds me of Bruce Springsteen. Tad Richards ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 4:11 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems By Others: Tooting My Own Horn Howdy all, Just a bit of self-aggrandizing, hope that no one takes offense. http://www.gwu.edu/~gwreview/poem1.html One of my latest. Jeff Newberry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headline -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Apr 3 12:41:54 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 11:41:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] bellicosity as way of life Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030403114110.01d78d30@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/04/03/sprj.irq.woolsey.world.war/index.html From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Apr 3 12:51:25 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:51:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New York Morning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Leslie. I've checked with Lynda and the cat, and they both seem to think it's okay for you to love me--so long as I don't reciprocate *too* much. Thus, it's six lanes to Baghdad, as far as *I'm* concerned. Well, maybe three. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Dear Hal, { { I love you, and so value these too-infrequent bulletins from your { day-to-day. A perfect prose poem. I am so happy to live in the { tri-state area you serve. { { Leslie { { >Awake again, after breakfast, Lynda and I sit in the living { >room and turn on the war with the sound off. Paula Zahn, { >the Doris Day of cable news, moves her lips and eyebrows { >in the Time-Life Building studio, where behind her, beyond { >her right shoulder, some doofus on the sidewalk is thumbing { >his cellphone, calling his girlfriend or wife or whatever to let { >her know that he's on TV. Then John King comes on and { >moves his lips about George W. Bush, who's in Camp Lejeune, { >North Carolina, to entertain the troops and their families. { >The cat missed his catbox again, and I sort of shunned him { >for a while, but now we're friends again, though he's off { >somewhere sleeping, being a nocturnal sort of guy. { > { >Hal Serving the tri-state area. { > { >Halvard Johnson { >=============== { >email: halvard at earthlink.net { >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { > { > { > { >_______________________________________________ { >New-Poetry mailing list { >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { { { -- { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Apr 3 14:36:37 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 14:36:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Ten new titles from xPress(ed) Message-ID: <002f01c2fa18$57c6ca40$254b9a40@computer> Subject: Ten new titles from xPress(ed) Ten new titles from xPress(ed) Spring 2003 Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino: Go ISBN 951-9198-20-2, 29 pages Jesse Glass: Closed Casket ISBN 951-9198-19-9, 16 pages Catharine Daly: File 'em ISBN 951-9198-16-4, 18 pages Nick Carbo: rising from your book ISBN 951-9198-15-6, 9 pages Nico Vassilakis: Talk is Parting of a Problem ISBN 951-9198-17-2, 20 pages Andrew Lundwall: wouldn't be here if it wasn't ISBN 951-9198-18-0, 46 pages Chris Sawyer: periodix ISBN 951-9198-21-0, 52 pages David Dowker: MACHINE LANGUAGE ISBN 951-9198-24-5, 18 pages Halvard Johnson: Rapsodie espagnole ISBN 951-9198-23-7, 38 pages Hugh Tribbey: JUVJULA DETOURS ISBN 951-9198-22-9, 42 pages All downloads are free, books are in PDF format. Further information for contacting xPress(ed) from website: http://www.xpressed.org Sincerely, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Editor xPress(ed) http://www.xpressed.org From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Apr 3 17:14:05 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 17:14:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Saddam on the lam? Message-ID: Saddam on the lam? http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,6119,2-10-1460_1342899,00.html Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Apr 3 18:21:27 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 17:21:27 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cluster Bomb Effects / Robert Fisk Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030403172038.01e07658@mail.ilstu.edu> via poet Stephen Vincent on Buffalo Poetics. >http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=393458 > >This is about as morally repugnant as it gets. > >In our name??!!! > >Stephen V From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Apr 3 20:30:59 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 18:30:59 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem by Andrew Motion References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F26@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <3E8CE052.D2582995@earthlink.net> Genuflect motion to Andrew Motion. Thanks for picking this up and posting it. - Jim "Graham, David" wrote: > > A poem by Andrew Motion on the war, demonstrating, I'd say by negative > example, how challenging it is to write occasional poetry, all the more so > when the subject is so vast, emotionally charged, and complicated. > > ============================================ > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > Regime change > > > A poem by Andrew Motion on Iraq > > > Advancing down the road from Niniveh > > > > Death paused a while and said 'Now listen here. > > > > You see the names of places roundabout? > > > > They're mine now, and I've turned them inside out. > > > > Take Eden, further south: at dawn today > > > > I ordered up my troops to tear away > > > > its walls and gates so everyone can see > > > > that gorgeous fruit which dangles from its tree. > > > > You want it, don't you? Go and eat it then, > > > > and lick your lips, and pick the same again. > > > > Take Tigris and Euphrates; once they ran > > > > through childhood-coloured slats of sand and sun. > > > > Not any more they don't; I've filled them up > > > > with countless different kinds of human crap. > > > > Take Babylon, the palace sprouting flowers > > > > which sweetened empires in their peaceful hours - > > > > I've found a different way to scent the air: > > > > already it's a by-word for despair. > > > > Which leaves Baghdad - the star-tipped minarets, > > > > the marble courts and halls, the mirage-heat. > > > > These places, and the ancient things you know, > > > > you won't know soon. I'm working on it now.' > > > > > > Thursday April 3, 2003 > > The Guardian > > Guardian Unlimited ? Guardian Newspapers Limited 2003 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bardo at optonline.net Thu Apr 3 21:17:08 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 21:17:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <3E8BF421.9125.211668@localhost> Message-ID: <000701c2fa50$4bbb29c0$6d94c044@MULDER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 8:43 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > Daniel Zimmerman: > > ... It seems to me that a non-violent solution trumps a bloody > > one.<< > > In every case? You'd rather have a non-violent and injust solution > than a bloody but just one? It seems to me that whether an act is > violent or not is simply not the most important criteria in > evaluating actions. Only where there are two solutions that are just > would it be valuable, it seems to me, to apply a secondary principle. > Or are you saying that non-violence is your primary principle, and > you'd rather have unjust non-violence than just violence? DZ: I referred to the present conflict. Regretably, violence against an unjust, unprovoked, direct attack sometimes remains a necessary last resort. However, the food and medical aid to the Iraqi people I proposed, combined with economic isolation of the regime, does not seem unjust, even if it leaves Hussein temporarily in power--as did the ill-focused (but presumably "just"?) "sanctions" of the last twelve years--since I believe that the actions I suggest would have a better chance of protecting the innocent while deligitimizing the regime. > Dan Zimmerman: > > Japan, for example, got to keep its emperor ... we may have > > pacified Japan simply by requiring the emperor to order the people > > to surrender and to accept a less visible American presence or > > influence than our military.<< > > There is a great difference between the legitimacy of an emperor who > is both a secular and a religious authority over a homogenous people > for 800 years and the legitimacy of a secular tyrant who rules by > fear and torture over a diverse population cobbled together by fiat > 80 years ago. Your analogy simply doesn't hold up. DZ: OK, but "the map is not the territory," either, and I wouldn't rely on an attack on the map which 'throws the baby out with the bath water.' The illegitimate flexibility of the analogy mirrors the illegitimate flexibility of our readiness to tolerate--even reward--some despots while excoriating others. The Duke of Ferrara had an 800 year old name, too, but Browning's poem invites the reader to question that appeal to authority. Did his purported descent from Ameratsu give Hirohito "moral authority"? Does Bush's rebirth from the womb of Christian Fundamentalism give him "moral authority"? > Saddam hasn't got the moral authority to remain as head of state > after surrendering. Even if he were offered that deal he would > trumpet it as another victory over the US and the non-Islamic west, > and would promptly set about to subvert and undermine any deal he > signed, and rebuild his military if there were no occupation forces > to prevent him. There is, by his very public record, nothing Saddam > won't lie about and no agreement he won't cheat on. You're suggesting > that the US trust a man as untrustworthy as that? DZ: Not at all. The policy I've suggested requires no trust of Saddam at all, and would serve to undermine whatever trust some Iraqis still have in him (as "the enemy of my enemy," where "my enemy" means us). > Dan Zimmerman: > > Certainly, a non-violent solution demonstrates a greater and a > > more acceptable kind of authority in the world than our own > > exercise of brutality. It should not have proven very difficult to > > unite even the Arab world against a secular tyrant like Saddam > > Hussein if we could have done so without killing Muslims and > > without appearing--however incorrectly--to wage war against Islam.< > > Here I can only agree: bin Laden and Hussein were competitors for the > same position of savior of the Islamic world. Bin Laden regarded > Hussein as a western-influenced secularist who was willing to sell > out Islam for his own personal power; Hussein regarded bin Laden as a > loose cannon zealot determined to wage religious war without regard > to power politics. That the Bush League folks in charge in the US > were not able to set two such people against each other and let them > fight it out without US interference, and then step in when the > weakened winner was exhausted from the fray betrays such an > appallingly ineptitude in foreign policy as to be characterizable as > "stupid". DZ: Exactly: it takes intelligence (in various senses of the word) to make the pen mightier than the sword. > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 3 23:36:28 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 23:36:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia NEA interview Message-ID: <12f.2717d704.2bbe65cc@cs.com> http://images.x10.com/tribune/ti_grun.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 3 23:37:35 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 23:37:35 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia NEA interview Message-ID: <1c1.7a3e32f.2bbe660f@cs.com> Sorry 'bout that first one. Damn pop-ups! http://www.calendarlive.com/cl-et-haith4apr04,0,5038761.story?coll=cl-home-m ore-channels -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 3 23:39:05 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 23:39:05 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem by Andrew Motion Message-ID: <120.1fd62c48.2bbe6669@cs.com> I didn't think it was that bad as parable, and certainly not bad at all as occasional verse. The defective rhymes bother me a bit, though. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat at conncoll.edu Thu Apr 3 23:54:59 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 23:54:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia NEA interview In-Reply-To: <1c1.7a3e32f.2bbe660f@cs.com> Message-ID: <20030403235459.007940@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> wrote: >Sorry 'bout that first one. Damn pop-ups! Oh thank you Sam. That was better drugs on a grim night. Wendy From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 4 00:06:07 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 00:06:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia NEA interview Message-ID: <63.1aee0468.2bbe6cbf@cs.com> In a message dated 4/3/2003 10:58:32 PM Central Standard Time, wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: > Sorry 'bout that first one. Damn pop-ups! > > Oh thank you Sam. That was better drugs on a grim night. > > Wendy Thanks, Wendy. I now have you on x-cam! I plan to post your image all over the internet (what a ratty old bathrobe!). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat at conncoll.edu Fri Apr 4 00:33:27 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 00:33:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia NEA interview In-Reply-To: <63.1aee0468.2bbe6cbf@cs.com> Message-ID: <20030404003327.001257@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> wrote: >> Oh thank you Sam. That was better drugs on a grim night. >> >> Wendy > >Thanks, Wendy. I now have you on x-cam! I plan to post your image all over >the internet (what a ratty old bathrobe!). Ingrate. ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu The wall between where we are? and the Self is called the mind. --S. J. Bharat From elemenope at icubed.com Thu Apr 3 12:06:30 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 01:06:30 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Problem of Professor Gudding In-Reply-To: <200304040431.h344V2ST009366@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304040431.h344V2ST009366@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Let's not pretend that Professor Gudding is an innocent. He knows exactly whereof he speaks. He speaks for the enemy and uses the enemy's media to advance its agenda. He isn't misinformed. He chooses on purpose to encourage those who like him seek to undermine America by means of their poetry. Such writers do not seek to speak for heroes like Private Lynch or those who fought the Al Q Terrorists on United Flight 93. Poets like Professor Gudding ignore our heroes, they despise them. On September 11, 2001 another poet and enemy of our country, Douglas Clark, wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>At 04:28 PM +0100 9/11/01, Douglas Clark wrote: >>>>>Very sorry about it. There is nothing else on the TV here. But >>>>>I am puzzled why Osman didnt go for the White House. Perhaps >>>>>it is too small a target and the British were there first. But Osman has been brilliant. Very sad for the deaths An ad hominem attack is to call someone a name instead of addressing the problem that the debator is debating. But, in this case, the Professor IS the problem, just as Professor De Genova are the problem. Clark, De Genova, Prof. G: they ride together. Both men are well placed in the "establishment." They have been given an unqualified success in the very system and country that they say they "hate." Professor Gabe Gudding hates the country and the men and women who are in the field defending that country. When events contradict his accusations he pretends that these events (like the mounting joyousness of the Iraqis as they recognize their liberation from the bloody psychotic tyrant Professor Gudding apparently has no problem with) are themselves lies put out by slanted corporate media. He slanders in his life work using legerdemain honored leaders of our country who can't due to reasons of health defend their good names. He seeks to put his country on trial in a kangaroo court based on evidence supplied to him by enemies of this country. He purposely ignores any testimony put to him no matter how reasonably that might help him develop a more evenhanded viewpoint. This is because of certain presumptive ideological commitments that he has not fully revealed or even perhaps become totally conscious within himself. Put another way, Professor Gudding is no John Birch Republican, no Marine, and an advocate of neither Franklin, nor Jefferson, nor Madison, nor Hamilton. The time is past when we can put one foot in one boat and one foot in another. Professor Gudding has cast his lot with those who are enemies of this country. And there will be real time consequences for him and those who ride with him, just as there are consequences for those like me who stand against him and those who ride with me. On this line, I'm outnumbered. But, mark this: Out there people are taking my side. In my vocabulary, it's the RadLibs versus the Lone Star Rangers. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 4 08:56:36 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 08:56:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Problem of Professor Gudding In-Reply-To: References: <200304040431.h344V2ST009366@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3E8D48C4.27242.26D38B@localhost> > Let's not pretend that Professor Gudding is an innocent. He knows > exactly whereof he speaks. He speaks for the enemy and uses the > enemy's media to advance its agenda. He isn't misinformed. He > chooses on purpose to encourage those who like him seek to undermine > America by means of their poetry.<< Well, by saying his posts are disingenuous I'm certainly not saying Prof Gudding is an innocent; I agree that he knows, or ought to know, that his claim that there is no difference between the intentions of the US and Iraqi regimes' military and moral goals and policies is unsupportable nonsense. But that doesn't mean he is seeking to "undermine America". Like Mike Snider, I think Prof Gudding is desperately wrong, and that he knows he's desperately wrong, about the difference intention makes in evaluating actions. But because Prof Gudding pretty carefully walks the line between "disingenuous" and "lying" I think we have to give him the benefit of the doubt and accept that he's aggressively trying to put forward his point of view, even though it's through fallacious arguments and rhetorical trickery. His posts are merely disingenuous. They are not lies because Prof Gudding is careful enough to avoid lying. It's too big a leap to go from Prof Gudding's fallacious arguments and rhetorical trickery to a conclusion that he wants to "undermine America". In any civil discussion we have to allow for the sincerity of our interlocutors' points of view, and tolerate those views without trying to silence them by the kind of rhetorical force that you're trying to employ here -- such virulent name-calling that the other simply abandons the field in disgust -- for two reasons: first, because it's simply wrong to do so; and second, because it gives Prof Gudding the chance to point out accurately, even righteously, that such name-calling is itself merely rhetorical trickery and fallacious argument. Even if you don't agree that it is morally better to avoid such name-calling, why not at least avoid giving those with whom you disagree the chance to be right about the fallaciousness of your own tactics? > An ad hominem attack is to call someone a name instead of addressing > the problem that the debator is debating. But, in this case, the > Professor IS the problem ...<< No, once you start down the path of claiming that your interlocutor IS the problem you have cut yourself off from civil discssion because the essence of civil discussion is that the participants in the discussion are NOT the problem; the problem is the problem, and it is fallacious to try to dismiss others' claims by referring to their characters or characteristics. > Professor Gabe Gudding hates the country and the men and women who > are in the field defending that country.<< This is too large a leap to make to a conclusion unsupported by the facts. That Prof Gudding disagrees extremely with the government's policies is not anything resembling proof that he hates his country -- and such a suggestion is as disingenuous as anything Prof Gudding has put forward to date. In the same way that the US position is that it despises the Iraqi REGIME but not the Iraqi PEOPLE, I'm sure Prof Gudding's view is that he disagrees with the government policy but loves his country. To accuse him of hating his country because he disagrees with his government's policy is simply untenable morally and intellectually. > He seeks to put his country on trial in a kangaroo court based on > evidence supplied to him by enemies of this country. He purposely > ignores any testimony put to him no matter how reasonably that might > help him develop a more evenhanded viewpoint. This is because of > certain presumptive ideological commitments that he has not fully > revealed or even perhaps become totally conscious within himself.<< Well, the goal then is to get him to reveal those presumptive ideological commitments through discussion. Accusing Prof Gudding of hating his country on the basis of his disagreement with its foreign policy is like accusing you of being a fascist on the basis of your disagreement with Prof Gudding: untenable, illogical, and unfair. > The time is past when we can put one foot in one boat and one foot > in another. > Professor Gudding has cast his lot with those who are enemies of > this country.<< Here again you do not distinguish between Prof Gudding's disagreement with the politics and policies of his country and his love of his country. Using your calculus here there's no reason not to nuke all of Iraq on the theory that those people who refused to overthrow Saddam Hussein deservet to die with him. It's reductive, simplistic, and na?ve. > ... On this line, I'm > outnumbered. But, mark this: Out there people are taking my side. > In my vocabulary, it's the RadLibs versus the Lone Star Rangers. Well, that's unfortunate. My father, a career military officer, used to say that Daniel Boone said "Be sure you're right, then go ahead." and my father criticized that as the quintessentially wrong-headed way to go about something. You cannot BE sure you're right; there are always drawbacks and consequences that we can see, and there are always drawbacks and consequences that we cannot see. The inflexibility of mind and approach that is characterized by "Be sure you're right, then go ahead" is by no means "American" -- it has been around for eons, employed by zealots and ideologues of all stripes. The American idea is to be flexible and tolerant INSTEAD OF being inflexible and intolerant. There are some exceptions, such as violent overthrow of the government, but by and large the idea is to be civil instead of zealous. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From JackTar at aol.com Fri Apr 4 09:24:10 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 09:24:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] The Problem of Professor Gudding Message-ID: <72.2c41c29a.2bbeef8a@aol.com> In a message dated 4/4/2003 1:12:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, elemenope at icubed.com writes: > Let's not pretend that Professor Gudding is an innocent. Abraham begins here... There will always be those who thrive Good morning. We are extremely pleased that you are here. It is good to come together for the purpose of co-creating, do you agree? You are knowing what you are wanting? You are enjoying your leading edge perspective? You are enjoying the desire that peaks within you, that fresh, new, unfulfilled desire? It's interesting, how, when you know that you are the creator of your own experience, and that anything you ask for, Source immediately begins to answer; and that circumstances and events are lining up, and that your work is about achieving vibrational harmony with your own desire. When you know that, when you understand the Deliberate Creative Process and you understand that your focus, and your exposure to contrast, which produces a peaked desire within you; when you really get it, that that desire is always answered, and that it's just your work to get into a place of allowing it? then, standing in that unfulfilled place of a fresh, new desire is delicious. When you understand that life is an ongoing, never-ending process, and that, in fact, you never get it done?you cannot get it done?then, when we say to you, "Are you enjoying your unfulfilled desire?" you say, "Yes!" and you really, really mean it, because you know that you never get it done, and that with each fulfillment comes another vantage point, which causes another clear desire to evolve within you, and that there is never an ending to the wonderful things that will unfold in your experience. You are Eternal Beings, and there is not an ending to that which is you. We have noticed that it is only when you get the pure sense of your eternalness, that you stopped fussing about what's not completed. Somehow, humans, often, measure their completions against each other's completions, and then determine inadequacies, or unworthiness, or unfulfillment, or not-enoughness. And we would really like you to get over that, fast, because you are Eternal Beings and you will not get it done. And when you really begin to get into the rhythm of the fact that you are Eternal, and that you cannot get it done, that it will just continue to unfold, then, and only then, do we see you relaxing in the beginning of a fresh, new, unfulfilled desire. But as long as you are counting your worthiness by the amount of fulfillment and trophies that you are achieving, then you are urgent in your completion of things. Then you stand here, in the absence of something that you now want, frustrated that you don't have this thing that you want, or this lifestyle, or this relationship, or this bodily condition that you want. "Oh, if I could just get over there, then I would feel so much better!" And we say, if you could just anticipate being over there, you could feel so much better. There is always going to be "over there." Please hear that. There is always going to be the next thing, which means you're always going to be not-complete. And the sooner you adjust to that, the sooner you will say, "Ah, I'm a blissfully incomplete person," without saying, "I am an inadequate person," without saying, "I am not enough in some way; I have not enough." There is enough of everything, for everybody We really want you to get into the realization that, your lack-based conclusions are erroneous, and not validated. Your conclusion that there isn't enough of something?whether it is enough land or enough money, or enough clarity?your feeling that there is not enough of something, stems from you learning, without meaning to, a vibration that holds you apart from what you want. But you imply that there's not enough in the bucket, that there's not enough in the pile, that there's not enough in the Source?that the Source of what you want is somehow limited. And since the Source is limited, then those greedy buggers that have managed to figure out how to get it in their life, are somehow depriving you of it. And we say, oh, you could not be further from the fact of the abundance of Source. There is no limitation. If you can identify a desire for it, Source recognizes your desire, and immediately begins to deliver it to you?and it will manifest in your experience in the variety, in the fullness, in the way that you, and only you, learn to allow it. So, if you stand in your now and you say, "Look at where I am. Where I am, justifies the desire that is conjuring within me. It is really important that I have this, or this, or this?because, after all, I am living in the deprivation of it. And the deprivation of it has served me to identify that I want it. I want that thing that I do not have. I want that thing that I do not have! I want that thing that I do not have. I really, really want that thing that I really, really, really do not have!" And we say, you cannot be equally focused upon the absence of something, and bring it swiftly into your experience at the same time, because in your awareness that you do not have it, you are offering a vibration. And the vibration that you're offering, is sending a signal to the Universe that says, "I am one who does not have this." The Universe, is based upon the Law of Attraction, which says, "The vibration that you emit is the vibration that you receive." You cannot set your radio for 98.6 and receive the broadcast from 101 FM?you understand that. And you cannot set your sender to the "I don't have enough money," and be in the place of receiving all the money that you want, because the signals do not line up?and Law of Attraction is responding to the vibration of your Being. Nice, isn't it? Nice to know. So consistent?always consistent. No one affects you, but you. Oh, you can watch others, and you can get all revved up about what they're doing. In your watching of others, you can project a vibration that the Universe matches. But your vibration is yours. You have control of your vibration. And when you learn to offer a vibration deliberately, you are the Deliberate Creator of your own experience. And before you learn to offer a vibration deliberately, you are just the creator of your experience?a sort of creator by default. Am I attracting destructive feelings of injustice? What is your bugaboo? Jerry came to the room just now with a book that someone has written called Law of Attraction. And when he laid it on the table, Esther felt resistance soaring from her being?not because she does not want you to know about Law of Attraction, but because that is the name of the book they are working on. In other words, she did not want someone to publish a book called Law of Attraction. She knows where her bugaboos are. She can feel what makes her blood pressure rise, what makes her feel negative emotion, what makes her feel injustice, what makes her feel unfairness, what makes her feel taken advantage of. She knows the feeling of that. She also knows that that feeling is destructive to her experience, because if she allows herself to hold the thought that brings forth the feeling, it is destructive to her own experience. She also knows that she cannot control the behavior of others. She cannot ask others to always ask her how she feels. "How do you feel about the war in Iraq, Esther? It will determine our actions." "How do you feel about the book I am writing, Esther? It will determine my action. If you have any problem with it whatsoever, I will set aside my intentions and I will honor yours." And while Esther may think that would be the perfect world, we say to you, there could only be one. And while each of you would like to be that one... So, what we are encouraging you to do, is to use the Guidance that comes forth from within you. And as you feel the Guidance that is coming forth from within you, and you recognize that you are feeling upset, and you are able to identify what the Source is that has upset you, and then you say, "Well, clearly I know what I do not want?what is it that I do want?" and you deliberately practice the thought of your desire, in time, anyone can show you anything, and you can maintain your stability, because you have practiced your stability in a sea of what many others may describe as instability. There will always be those who thrive There are always those who thrive when masses are dying of sickness. There are always those who thrive economically when economic decline seems to be the order of your nation. There are always those who are clear-minded, even in environments of confusion. You do not need everyone, you do not need anyone, to align with your desire?only you need to align with your desire. And so, we call this gathering The Art of Allowing, and Esther wants to say to you, if you write a book called The Art of Allowing she will wring your neck. We call this gathering The Art of Allowing, because that is where your work is. The contrast of your time/space reality naturally produces the focused desire within you. And the resources of All-That-Is answer the desire that has been focused. And where your work lies, where all of your work lies, is in finding ways to vibrationally align with your desires. Simply put: you've got to figure out how to feel good, no matter what. You've got to stop saying, "I feel good, mostly, but under these conditions; and that condition needs to change before I can feel better." Because now you are giving all of your power away to others who are making decisions about their lives, which have nothing to do with your lives. Can I not be affected by them? So, you say, "Well, how can I separate what they're doing? It feels like what they're doing has something to do with my life. It feels really connected to me. How can you say that it is not connected?" And we say, it is only connected because you are making it connected. So then you say, "So, what do I do? I put blinders on? I hide myself? How can I drive down the street without being aware of different people having different opinions about whatever is in the news today? How do I keep from bumping up against things that my emotional Guidance System responds to? How do I keep from feeling outrage or concern or blame, or guilt? How do I live in this world and not respond to what's going on?" And we say, we would not want you to live in a world where you are not responding to what's going on. All we are suggesting is that you practice who you are and how you feel, so much, that your response to what they are doing doesn't become more of who you are, than your response to what you are desiring. What we are suggesting is, that you think so much about who you are, and what you are doing?that what others are doing that feels like it is happening in relationship to you? is a miniscule part of the picture of that which is You. We want you to be so grounded in your environment and attitude and Energy of Well-being, that when someone that you know contracts a disease, you don't feel vulnerable, because, by association, you don't superimpose their experience over yours. But you only are able to do that when you've practiced your own intent and belief in your own Well-being long enough that you don't feel tentative. If you feel tentative, you're easily swayed. If you feel tentative on your subject of your physical Well-being, then you are easily swayed into an Energy, or a feeling, of discomfort, and even sickness. In other words, it's all about how you are projecting your thought?how you are practicing your vibration?what you are teaching yourself, vibrationally. It all depends on your practiced focus As we are moving forward here today, we will assist you in recognizing what the vibration of your Being is. And since nothing matters to you other than your personal, individual alignment with your personal, individual goals or desires, then that is where our work is. We are not here to debate the rightness or the wrongness of what you, or anyone, chooses. We are not taking sides, for, or against, anything. We are here to help you understand that, as individuals, your life can be as wonderful or as horrible as you allow it to be. And it all depends upon the focus that you practice. And therein lies the basis of anyone's success: How much do I practice the thoughts that bring me joy, and how much do I practice the thoughts that bring me pain? Must we "allow" ourselves to experience pain? So, if you're walking along in a body that feels good and in an environment that feels good, and you see a raging, fiery, hot stove, do you think that it would be a good thing for you to learn how to walk up to the hot stove, lay your body up against it, and survive? Is that what The Art of Allowing is? Learning to allow or endure the most uncomfortable of situations, but keep your mouth closed and don't squawk about it, is that what Allowing is? Not even close. Allowing is: Walking through the room where the hot stove exists, and recognizing that there may be benefit from it, and utilizing that benefit, if there is. And if there is not benefit for you, then walking on by and ignoring it, understanding that others may choose to participate with it, or not. Walking through the room, having your experience with it, coming to your personal, individual conclusions about it, and then practicing thought that causes you, then, to live a comfortable life experience. And so, you say, "Well, Abraham, that's a pretty elementary analogy. I understand the value of the stove, and I can see where it can serve me or not serve me. And I've learned my place with it, and I can extract the benefit from it. And it is really rare, it only happened once or twice when I was really little, that, in my not knowing, I bumped up against it and had a negative experience. So, Abraham, are you telling me that everything is like that stove?" And we say, yes, exactly. Every thought, every condition, every exposure to every experience. You can participate with it; you can receive positive experience from it, or negative experience from it, but you get to choose. Or, you can receive no experience from it. You can make it a vibrational non-issue in your experience. You're not powerless in a power-seeking world Where humans get into trouble, is where they say, "But now I have to find my experience or my relationship with this stove (or whatever) and I want everyone else to have the same experience with it. I want us to join together in clubs and groups, and I want us to express our harmony about the idea. And we will form bands of protesters that will push against those who disagree with us. And eventually, we will sort it out on a world forum, and we will come to one agreement." And we say, why does it have to be that way? Why can it not be individual agreement? And you say, "Because..." and here's the crux of your worry, "because I'm but one person with one opinion. And those that do band together in their opinions will run over the top of me. I'm powerless in a world that seeks power." And we say, that is what we are wanting to help you to understand: We want to help you regain your clarity about your individual power. Everyone has it. No one can ever take it away from you. No one can ever do anything "bad" to you. No one can assert into your experience. Everything, without exception, comes only by your individual invitation to it. So you say, "But, Abraham, I would not ask for something that I do not want." And we say, you do it all the time, because you do not understand the process of asking. The process of asking is achieving vibrational harmony with something. When you give something your attention and it becomes your dominant vibration relative to the subject, that is your asking. You say, "No, I'm asking for Well-being. How could not Well-being come into my experience?" And we say, because you often are not a vibrational match to Well-being. You're finding too many things to fuss about. You're finding too many things to be upset about. You're finding too many injustices?too many things that make you feel negative emotion. Nothing's more important than to feel good The only way that we have ever seen that any of you can use the Guidance that you were born with is by making this statement and really meaning it and coming to live it: "Nothing is more important than that I feel good. Nothing is more important than that I am consciously aware of the vibrational mix of that which I am giving my attention to. Nothing is more important than that I read the vibration of my Being in this moment, to know whether it's a life-giving moment, or a life-squelching moment; whether it is the allowing of Well-being, or the disallowing of Well-being." So, Deliberate Creating is not so much about looking out into the world and saying, "Oh, there are things that are good that I want to create or attract into my experience, and there are things that are bad that I don't want to create or attract into my experience." Deliberate creating is more about deliberate allowing. Deliberate allowing is more like deliberate vibration. Deliberate vibration is more about deliberately feeling good?deliberately feeling good. Feeling good: not because there is a reason to, and not because the president is making the best decision, and not because my body looks exactly how I want it to look, and not because everybody is treating me in the way I think I should be treated?but feeling good because I want so much to feel good, that I look only where I feel good when I look. "I stopped saying to the world, or to my mother, or to my daughter, or to my husband, or to my friend, or to my government, or to anyone, I stopped saying, 'You need to do something different so that I can feel good,'" which is so disempowering, because you know they're not going to do what you want them to do! You can't get big enough; you can't get enough bombs; you can't get enough armies; you can't get enough resources to make them think like you do! Your only path is to want so much to feel good, that you train yourself, thought by thought, subject by subject, in the direction of what does feel good, so that you allow yourself vibrational alignment with the Source and resources and circumstances, and events, that allow the perfection of your life?by your choice, to unfold. Individually, you are each such powerful Beings You are such powerful Beings! As we behold you individually, one by one, we say, you have as much power as the president of this nation for the controlling of your life experience. In fact, there's not one of you in this room who doesn't have more power than he does right now. The bombardment of ideas, the bombardment of perspectives, the bombardment of information, true and false, that he's receiving?he cannot possibly align with Source under these conditions. You can. So then you say, "Ah, that's worrying. He's making decisions and he's not aligned with Source?" And we say, his worldwide influence is miniscule in comparison with the billions of people who are individually requesting, from their personal perspective, what they desire. Your government is not the vortex through which your Well-being flows. The vortex through which your Well-being flows is within you! It is vibrationally felt by you. It is, if you're wanting to put your finger on it, it is right in your solar plexus where your emotional center is. And so, reclaim it. Make this statement and mean it: "Nothing is more important than that I feel good. Thought by thought, moment by moment, I'm going to open my valve and I'm going to let the good times roll." A parking lot brawl, escalated Let's bring it down to something that's easy to get your thoughts around for a moment. So, let's say that there are two people who have a disagreement that you don't understand, that are arguing in the parking lot. And as you walk by, you hear their argument, but you are used to things going well for you. And so, while you couldn't help but hear them, you wonder, sort of, how you even got there. You don't give it very much attention. But someone that you are with turns and hears them a little bit, and says to you, "Wait up for just a moment." Now, your natural instinct isn't to get involved in something like this, but you have another intention, and that is to stay with the friend, or lover or mate, that you came with. So, while you do not have an intention to get involved in any argument, in fact, that's not the nature of you, you do have an intention to stay with this person who has other peripheral intentions. And so, it turns out that the person that you are with has had a parking lot or two scuffles of his own, and is only peripherally interested, so he just stops for a moment and as he listens, he hears something that stirs something within him, and now he feels that he must take action, because he can see that the big one is clearly going to beat up on the little one. And so, your friend now gets involved, and now you're involved. Now, somebody else comes, and somebody else comes, and before you know it, you have a whole lot of people that are, sort of, gathered around this issue that really did not have anything to do with the beginning of it. But the more you listen, and the more you begin to talk among yourselves, the more you begin to take sides. And then you can clearly see that this one is right, or you can clearly see that this one is right. And now, because of your involvement with it over a period of a few days or weeks or months, or years, it begins to feel very personal to you as you begin to really relate to the issue. And so, you get these things activated within yourself. And so, that, in a very scanty way, is exactly the sort of thing that escalates into these culminations that evolve into world events. It is our promise to you, that if mass consciousness were not involved nothing could ever escalate to be something that is played out on the world stage. It would play out in the parking lot. But the more people get involved in it, then the more energy is around it, and then, the more large the events must come about. Twin Towers, 9/11/01, and culminations of Energies When your Twin Towers were struck by airplanes on 9/11, it was a huge culmination of energies that had been going on for a long time. But when you think about it, it was a very small representation; it certainly was not a world war; it certainly was not a world event. It was proportionate to the energies that had been stirred. But now, as a result of all of the attention that's been offered to it, it is becoming a bigger energy. And it could not amass that energy, if there were not millions of people that are getting collectively involved with it. In other words, it's just a parking lot brawl that got bigger?that's all it is. But a leader of a nation... In other words, Jerry says, from time to time, "Why don't George and Saddam just go fight it out?" [good idea] And Esther says, "Because Saddam would whup George, and then we would be in trouble. In other words, I'm not sure I really want the balance of power to rest on that. We will start choosing our presidents with different criteria, if that were the new rule of the world." So, that's why, the two statements that we made earlier, we really want you to hear both of them. One: there will always be war, whether it's in a parking lot, or it will be as big as you choose to participate within and give power to it. But second: Well-being is always the dominant Energy. And so, you speak it in terms like, "The pendulum is swinging." And we say, don't make someone else's parking lot brawl about you. Don't become involved in it. Don't let them bring you into it. Don't let them make you use it as your excuse to deny the Energy. If you are really wanting to bring your government to the place that it cannot wage war, then don't get involved in it and add your Energy to it, you see. It is so wonderful when you realize that you can be joyful without anybody else ever figuring it out. And that the majority of people, when they focus upon their own experiences, do live in joy. We would make the parking lot brawl, no matter how big it seems, a non-issue to our vibrational experience. And if everyone would do it, there wouldn't be enough Energy for George Bush or Saddam to have a war. They'd be having a parking lot brawl. ?Abraham Who is Abraham? Abraham, a group of obviously evolved teachers, speak their broader Non-physical perspective through the physical apparatus of Esther. Speaking to our level of comprehension, from their present moment to our now, through a series of loving, allowing, brilliant yet comprehensively simple, recordings in print and in sound?they guide us to a clear connection with our Inner Being?they guide us to self-upliftment from our total self. Excited about the clarity and practicality of the translated word from Abraham, Jerry and Esther Hicks began, in 1986, disclosing their Abraham experience to a handful of close business associates. Then, recognizing the practical results being received by those persons who began plying Abraham with meaningful personal questions regarding their finances, bodily conditions, and relationships... the Hickses made a conscious decision to allow Abraham's teachings to become available to an ever widening circle of seekers. And that circle continues to expand?even as you read this page. Jerry and Esther have now published more than 400 Abraham-Hicks books, CDs, cassettes and videos, and have been presenting open group interactive workshops in about 40 cities a year to those who gather to participate in this progressive stream of thought. Although worldwide attention has been given by leading edge thinkers to this Science of Deliberate Creation who, in turn, incorporate many of Abraham's concepts into their books, lectures, sermons, screenplays, scripts... the primary spread of this material has been from person to person?as individuals begin to discover the value of these materials in their practical, personal experience. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier at localnet.com Fri Apr 4 10:34:43 2003 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 10:34:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Side Bar References: <1ca.6724073.2bba8dac@aol.com> <005e01c2fa00$3549acc0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <3E8DA613.13B09AAA@localnet.com> I have a favorite one I use in class: Character is the decision to be intelligent. William Stafford TheOldMole wrote: > Seems like all the great quotes about teaching and learning are about > doubting and rejectind, doesn't it? Here's one from Roethke: "A poet > is judged, in part, by the influences he resists." Tad > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MillB at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 1:37 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Side Bar > Greetings all: > > I'm putting together a philosophy of teaching section for my > syllabus and would like to ask if anyone has quotes or gems > about the teaching of writing, or about learning (in > general). > > I found this one in the Writers Chronicle yesterday morning > from Ren? Descartes, more famous for his "I think, therefore > I am," statement: ""If you would be a real seeker after > truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you > doubt, as far as possible, all things." > > Thanks in advance. > > Mill > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Apr 4 10:13:36 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:13:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Side Bar In-Reply-To: <3E8DA613.13B09AAA@localnet.com> Message-ID: In talking about workshops, Don Sheehan at the Frost Place often says something like (rough paraphrase) "when you have to make a flash decision between sympathy and intelligence, always choose sympathy. We're all helplessly intelligent; the intelligence will follow." ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From: Helen Ruggieri Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 10:34:43 -0500 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: A Side Bar I have a favorite one I use in class: Character is the decision to be intelligent. William Stafford -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Apr 4 11:27:21 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 10:27:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spoken Word Review Message-ID: A most welcome development lately has been the appearance of more poetry collections with accompanying CDs of poets reading aloud. There are two or three such items, for example, on the Poetry Daily "new arrivals" list right now. I'd like to recommend (with reservations) one of them, which I recently acquired to consider for class adoption: *The Spoken Word Revolution: Slam, Hip Hop & the Poetry of a New Generation*, ed. Mark Eleveld, with narration by Marc Smith. [Sourcebooks, 2003.] The anthology includes quite a few poets from the slam scene and a few tokens (Billy Collins, Quincy Troupe, Andrei Codrescu, Yusef Komunyakaa, e.g.) from elsewhere. Familiar slammers (Taylor Mali, Regie Gibson, Patricia Smith, Sherman Alexie) appear alongside others less known (Roger Bonair-Agard). The book gives a pretty good introduction to its subject, including a few mini-essays by various hands on the spoken word phenomenon. Unfortunately, not all these poets are included on the CD. Which leads to my reservations. A lot of them have to do with Marc Smith, the fabled originator of the poetry slam, who sprawls all over the CD with sound-bytes of mostly annoying and intrusive narration, sometimes even talking over the performances with his hyperbolic self-promoting potted history, which most often stars Marc Smith. Some of his literary history is right on target; but some is just ludicrous, as when he chooses to feature Ed Hirsch and Marvin Bell, of all people, as "links" between the Beats and the hip-hop generation. Say what? In a collection of this type, the absence of *any* representation of often-recorded poets like Ginsberg, Baraka, Knight, or Gil Scott-Heron is quite inexplicable. For that matter, somebody like Robert Bly has much to do with popularizing the contemporary poetry reading as entertainment and theater, and favoring an Ed Hirsch or Marvin Bell over a Bly is just warped. The editors' blindness to this dimension of their subject is either ignorance or bias of the first order. The other huge annoyance is that a number of the readings are truncated, for no good reason--probably the better to fit more of Marc Smith's irritating commentary on the CD. And--equally inexplicable--some of the CD performances are not included in the accompanying anthology. Saving pages? So why am I recommending this book and CD? Most importantly, many of the readings are really splendid. I'm always in search of lively recorded poetry, and this one is full of riches. Unlike too many poetry CDs, this is not for the most part a studio production. The editors have the good sense to present their poets "live," which is appropriate to the theme and also tends to lead to more energetic, exciting performances. And, since many of the readers are slam stars, the readings are never less than high-voltage. All the limitations of slam poetry are on display, but so are all the charms and power. The book generally gives a nicely provocative introduction to a controversial phenomenon. There are a number of recent anthologies covering the subject, and this is one of the most interesting. (I'd say the best of the bunch, in terms of consistent quality, is Zoe Anglesey's *Listen Up!*, but that one doesn't have an accompanying CD.) *The Spoken Word Revolution* definitely has attitude, and I'm thinking it would be a good addition to a course on poetry, even if not the sole text. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Apr 4 11:47:04 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 10:47:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Gertrude Stein (1874-1946) Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030404104019.01d4d290@mail.ilstu.edu> IT WAS BLACK, BLACK TOOK Black ink best wheel bale brown. Excellent not a hull house, not a pea soup, no bill no care, no precise no past pearl pearl goat. -- fr. Tender Buttons -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 4 15:54:13 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 15:54:13 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Spoken Word Review Message-ID: <75.e17ca8d.2bbf4af5@cs.com> I may have mentioned early that the spring issue of the Hudson Review (55th anniversary issue) will include a cd of poets who have published there reading from their works. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 4 17:36:38 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 17:36:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <000701c2fa50$4bbb29c0$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3E8DC2A6.11958.202FD1C@localhost> > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > > ... It seems to me that a non-violent solution trumps a bloody > > > one.<< Marcus Bales: > > In every case? You'd rather have a non-violent and injust solution > > than a bloody but just one? It seems to me that whether an act is > > violent or not is simply not the most important criteria in > > evaluating actions. Only where there are two solutions that are just > > would it be valuable, it seems to me, to apply a secondary principle. > > Or are you saying that non-violence is your primary principle, and > > you'd rather have unjust non-violence than just violence? > DZ: > I referred to the present conflict. Regretably, violence against an > unjust, unprovoked, direct attack sometimes remains a necessary last resort. > However, the food and medical aid to the Iraqi people I proposed, combined > with economic isolation of the regime, does not seem unjust, even if it > leaves Hussein temporarily in power--as did the ill-focused (but presumably > "just"?) "sanctions" of the last twelve years--since I believe that the > actions I suggest would have a better chance of protecting the innocent > while deligitimizing the regime.<< Well, what you're postulating here is that your particular solution is both non-violent and just, though how to enforce the distribution of the material within the country in the way you recommend without employing some kind of compulsion or threat of compulsion seems vague at best. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 4 18:22:43 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 18:22:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] There Will Always Be an England Department In-Reply-To: <3E8DC2A6.11958.202FD1C@localhost> References: <000701c2fa50$4bbb29c0$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3E8DCD73.18066.22D308D@localhost> There Will Always Be an England Department Via William Gibson, via Electrolite. British frontline troops politely tell Britain's defense minister that he is barking mad: "Umm Qasr is a town similar to Southampton," UK Defence Minister Geoff Hoon told the House of Commons yesterday. "He's either never been to Southampton, or he's never been to Umm Qasr," said one British soldier, informed of this while on patrol in Umm Qasr. Another added: "There's no beer, no prostitutes, and people are shooting at us. It's more like Portsmouth." Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bardo at optonline.net Fri Apr 4 18:31:10 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 18:31:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <3E8DC2A6.11958.202FD1C@localhost> Message-ID: <06fd01c2fb02$46896130$6d94c044@MULDER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > > > ... It seems to me that a non-violent solution trumps a bloody > > > > one.<< > > Marcus Bales: > > > In every case? You'd rather have a non-violent and injust solution > > > than a bloody but just one? It seems to me that whether an act is > > > violent or not is simply not the most important criteria in > > > evaluating actions. Only where there are two solutions that are just > > > would it be valuable, it seems to me, to apply a secondary principle. > > > Or are you saying that non-violence is your primary principle, and > > > you'd rather have unjust non-violence than just violence? > > > DZ: > > I referred to the present conflict. Regretably, violence against an > > unjust, unprovoked, direct attack sometimes remains a necessary last resort. > > However, the food and medical aid to the Iraqi people I proposed, combined > > with economic isolation of the regime, does not seem unjust, even if it > > leaves Hussein temporarily in power--as did the ill-focused (but presumably > > "just"?) "sanctions" of the last twelve years--since I believe that the > > actions I suggest would have a better chance of protecting the innocent > > while deligitimizing the regime.<< > > Well, what you're postulating here is that your particular solution > is both non-violent and just, though how to enforce the distribution > of the material within the country in the way you recommend without > employing some kind of compulsion or threat of compulsion seems vague > at best. > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > Not just vague, Marcus: unexpressed! I don't pretend to expertise in logistics, but then again, neither does Bush--he proposes, and Congress disposes (or, since Congress has pretty much disposed of itself by giving him such extraordinary powers, the Defense Department disposes--followed by the corporate conrtactors who will rebuild what the DoD destroys). I think that different agencies--the Red Cross and the Red Crescent working in concert, along with various other international agencies--could figure out how to implement such a policy. The fact that I don't have an answer ready-made doesn't mean no one has. Dan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Fri Apr 4 18:48:18 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 03 18:48:18 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <200304042348.h34NmeOj169372@northrelay04.pok.ibm.com> Can someone explain why anyone would spend even a microsecond's worth of attention on the following? Richard >>IT WAS BLACK, BLACK TOOK >> >> Black ink best wheel bale brown. >> Excellent not a hull house, not a pea soup, no bill no care, no >>precise no past pearl pearl goat. >> >> >>-- fr. Tender Buttons >> From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Apr 4 18:56:05 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 18:56:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <200304042348.h34NmeOj169372@northrelay04.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: Yes, of course, and many have. Hal "There are then quite a number of things one does or does not know." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { Can someone explain why anyone would spend even { a microsecond's worth of attention on the following? { { Richard { >>IT WAS BLACK, BLACK TOOK { >> { >> Black ink best wheel bale brown. { >> Excellent not a hull house, not a pea soup, no bill no care, no { >>precise no past pearl pearl goat. { >> { >> { >>-- fr. Tender Buttons { >> { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Apr 4 20:10:40 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 20:10:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And one, for example, is Wayne Koestenbaum, whose "Stein is Nice," is as good an intro to Stein as any, and, maybe, better than a few. It's in *Cleavage: Essays on Sex, Stars, and Aesthetics* [New York: Ballantine Books, 2000], and shouldn't be hard to find. Hal "There are then quite a number of things one does or does not know." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Yes, of course, and many have. { { Hal "There are then quite a number of things { one does or does not know." { --Gertrude Stein { Halvard Johnson { =============== { email: halvard at earthlink.net { website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { { { { Can someone explain why anyone would spend even { { a microsecond's worth of attention on the following? { { { { Richard { { >>IT WAS BLACK, BLACK TOOK { { >> { { >> Black ink best wheel bale brown. { { >> Excellent not a hull house, not a pea soup, no bill no care, no { { >>precise no past pearl pearl goat. { { >> { { >> { { >>-- fr. Tender Buttons { { >> { { _______________________________________________ { { New-Poetry mailing list { { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Apr 4 20:22:14 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 19:22:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] anonymous caller threatens to shoot protesters in Washington Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030404192147.011bd860@mail.ilstu.edu> http://cgi.bellinghamherald.com/cgi-bin/update-news/show-breaking.cgi From bardo at optonline.net Fri Apr 4 20:44:39 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 20:44:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: <200304042348.h34NmeOj169372@northrelay04.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <074f01c2fb14$ec3c55d0$6d94c044@MULDER> Not not knack, Dick (nyuk, nyuk). Super- lative, -cilious, sighs. Freedom fries. Dry heaves unstuck. -stitious? Sonic, anyhow. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 6:48 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons > Can someone explain why anyone would spend even > a microsecond's worth of attention on the following? > > Richard > >>IT WAS BLACK, BLACK TOOK > >> > >> Black ink best wheel bale brown. > >> Excellent not a hull house, not a pea soup, no bill no care, no > >>precise no past pearl pearl goat. > >> > >> > >>-- fr. Tender Buttons > >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Apr 4 22:29:33 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 21:29:33 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Works by Others: Joseph Mazzini Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030404212606.011a3140@mail.ilstu.edu> 1858. _An Essay On the Duties of Man Addressed to Workingmen_ Chapter V -- Duties Towards Your Country Your first duties - first as regards importance - are, as I have already told you, towards Humanity. You are men before you are either citizens or fathers. If you do not embrace the whole human family in your affection; if you do not bear witness to your belief in the Unity of that family, consequent upon the Unity of God, and in that fraternity among the peoples which is destined to reduce that Unity to action; if, wheresoever a fellow-creature suffers, or the dignity of human nature is violated by falsehood or tyranny - you are not ready, if able, to aid the unhappy, and do not feel called upon to combat, if able, for the redemption of the betrayed and oppressed - you violate your law of life, you comprehend not that Religion which will be the guide and blessing of the future. But what can each of you, singly, do for the moral improvement and progress of Humanity? You can from time to time give sterile utterance to your belief; you may, on some rare occasions, perform some act of charity towards a brother-man not belonging to your own land - no more. But charity is not the watchword of the Faith of the Future. The watchword of the faith of the future is Association and fraternal cooperation towards a common aim; and this is far superior to all charity, as the edifice which all of you should unite to raise would be superior to the humble hut each one of you might build alone, or with the mere assistance of lending and borrowing stone, mortar, and tools. But, you tell me, you cannot attempt united action, distinct and divided as you are in language, customs, tendencies, and capacity. The individual is too insignificant, and Humanity too vast. The mariner of Brittany prays to God as he puts to sea; "Help me, my God! my boat is so small and Thy ocean so wide!" And this prayer is the true expression of the condition of each one of you, until you find the means of infinitely multiplying your forces and powers of action. This means was provided for you by God when He gave you a country; when, even as a wise overseer of labour distributes the various branches of employment according to the different capacities of the workmen, he divided Humanity into distinct groups or nuclei upon the face of the earth, thus creating the germ of nationalities. Evil governments have disfigured the Divine design. Nevertheless you may still trace it, distinctly marked out - at least as far as Europe is concerned - by the course of the great rivers, the direction of the higher mountains, and other geographical conditions. They have disfigured it by their conquests, their greed, and their jealousy even of the righteous power of others; disfigured it so far that, if we except England and France, there is not perhaps a single country whose present boundaries correspond to that design. These governments did not, and do not, recognize any country save their own families or dynasty, the egoism of caste. But the Divine design will infallibly be realized; natural divisions and the spontaneous, innate tendencies of the peoples will take the place of the arbitrary divisions, sanctioned by evil governments. The map of Europe will be redrawn. The countries of the peoples, defined by the vote of free men, will arise upon the ruins of the countries of kings and privileged castes, and between these countries harmony and fraternity will exist. And the common work of Humanity, of general amelioration, and the gradual discovery and application of its Law of life, being distributed according to local and general capacities, will be wrought out in peaceful and progressive development and advance. Then may each one of you, fortified by the power and affection of many millions, all speaking the same language, gifted with the same tendencies, and educated by the same historical tradition, hope even by your own single efforts to be able to benefit all Humanity. 0, my brothers, love your Country! Our country is our Home, a house God has given us, placing therein a numerous family that loves us, and whom we love; a family with whom we sympathize more readily and whom we understand more quickly than we do others; and which, from its being centred round a given spot, and from the homogeneous nature of its elements, is adapted to a special branch of activity. Our Country is our common workshop, whence the products of our activity are sent forth for the benefit of the whole world; wherein the tools and implements of labour we can most usefully employ are gathered together; nor may we reject them without disobeying the plan of the Almighty, and diminishing our own strength. In labouring for our own country on the right principle, we labour for Humanity. Our country is the fulcrum of the lever we have to wield for the common good. If we abandon the fulcrum, we run the risk of rendering ourselves useless not only to Humanity but to our country itself. Before men can associate with the nations of which Humanity is composed, they must have a national existence. There is no true association except among equals. It is only through our country that we can have a recognized collective existence. Humanity is a vast army advancing to the conquest of lands unknown, against enemies both powerful and astute. The peoples are the different corps, the divisions of that army. Each of them has its post assigned to it, and its special operation to execute; and the common victory depends upon the exactitude with which those distinct operations are fulfilled. Disturb not the order of battle. Forsake not the banner given to you by God. Wheresoever you may be, in the centre of whatsoever people circumstances may have placed you, be ever ready to combat for the liberty of that people, should it be necessary, but combat in such wise that the blood you shed may reflect glory, not on yourself alone, but on your country. Say not I, but We. Let each man among you strive to incarnate his country in himself. Let each man among you regard himself as a guarantor, responsible for his fellow-countrymen, and learn so to govern his actions as to cause his country to be loved and respected through him. Your country is the sign of the Mission God has given you to fulfill towards Humanity. The faculties and forces of all her sons should be associated in the accomplishment of that mission. The true country is a community of free men and equals, bound together in fraternal concord to labour towards a common aim. You are bound to make it and to maintain it such. The country is not an aggregation, but an association. There is, therefore, no true country without a uniform right. There is no true country where the uniformity of that right is violated by the existence of caste privilege and inequality. Where the activity of a portion of the powers and faculties of the individual is either cancelled or dormant; where there is not a common Principle, recognized, accepted, and developed by all, there is no true Nation, no People; but only a multitude, a fortuitous agglomeration of men whom circumstances have called together and whom circumstances may again divide. In the name of the love you bear your country, you must peacefully but untiringly combat the existence of privilege and inequality in the land that gave you life. There is but one sole legitimate privilege, the privilege of Genius when it reveals itself united with virtue. But this is a privilege given by God, and when you acknowledge it, and follow its inspiration, you do so freely, exercising your own reason and your own choice. Every privilege which demands submission from you in virtue of power, inheritance, or any other right than the Right common to all, is a usurpation and a tyranny which you are bound to resist and destroy. Be your country your Temple: God at the summit; a people of equals at the base. Accept no other formula, no other moral law, if you would not dishonour alike your country and yourselves. Let all secondary laws be but the gradual regulation of your existence by the progressive application of this Supreme law. And in order that they may be such, it is necessary that all of you should aid in framing them. Laws framed only by a single fraction of the citizens, can never, in the very nature of things, be other than the mere expression of the thoughts, aspirations, and desires of that fraction; the representation, not of the country, but of a third or fourth part, of a class or zone of the country. The laws should be the expression of the universal aspiration, and promote the universal good. They should be a pulsation of the heart of the nation. The entire nation should, either directly or indirectly, legislate. By yielding up this mission into the hands of a few, you substitute the selfishness of one class for the Country, which is the union of all classes. Country is not only a mere zone of territory. The true Country is the Idea to which it gives birth; it is the Thought of love, the sense of communion which unites in one all the sons of that territory. So long as a single one amongst your brothers has no vote to represent him in the development of the national life, so long as there is one left to vegetate in ignorance where others are educated, so hong as a single man, able and willing to work, languishes in poverty through want of work to do, you have no country in the sense in which Country ought to exist - the country of all and for all. Education, labour, and the franchise, are the three main pillars of the Nation; rest not until you have built them thoroughly up with your own labour and exertions. Be it yours to evolve the life of your country in loveliness and strength; free from all servile fears or sceptical doubts; maintaining as its basis the People; as its guide the principles of its Religious Faith, logically and energetically applied; its strength, the united strength of all; its aim, the fulfillment of the mission given to it by God. And so long as you are ready to die for Humanity, the life of your country will be immortal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Sat Apr 5 00:51:27 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 00:51:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1049521887.3e8e6edf0d05e@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Hi all, don't have time for my full take on these lines from Tender Buttons just now but wanted to say that I just taught TB this past Thurs and I have always found it a very teachable book; you can dive in anywhere to any paragraph and pick it apart for an hour or so. Anyway, for starters, here are some words from William James, Stein's mentor, whom she studied with around the time James was writing The Principles of Psychology, from which the following two quotes are drawn: "To sum up, certain kinds of verbal associate, certain grammatical expectations fulfilled, stand for a good part of our impression that a sentence has meaning and is dominated by the Unity of one Thought. Nonsense in grammatical form sounds half-rational; sense with grammatical sequence upset sounds nonsensical; e.g, 'Elba the Napolean English faith had banished broken to he Saint because Helena at'" (1:265). "The relations [between words] are numberless, and no existing language is capable of doing justice to all their shades. We ought to say a feeling of *and*, a feeling of *if*, a feeling of *but*, a feeling of *by*, quite as readily as we say a feeling of blue or a feeling of cold. Yet we do not: so inveterate has our habit become of recognizing the existence of the substantive parts alone, that language almost refuses to lend itself to any other use" (1:245). More soon, time willing... -m. Quoting Halvard Johnson : > > Yes, of course, and many have. > > Hal "There are then quite a number of things > one does or does not know." > --Gertrude Stein > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > { > { Can someone explain why anyone would spend even > { a microsecond's worth of attention on the following? > { > { Richard > { >>IT WAS BLACK, BLACK TOOK > { >> > { >> Black ink best wheel bale brown. > { >> Excellent not a hull house, not a pea soup, no bill no care, > no > { >>precise no past pearl pearl goat. > { >> > { >> > { >>-- fr. Tender Buttons > { >> > { _______________________________________________ > { New-Poetry mailing list > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JackTar at aol.com Sat Apr 5 01:37:02 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 01:37:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Works by Others: Joseph Mazzini Message-ID: <69.36cf5c27.2bbfd38e@aol.com> In a message dated 4/4/2003 10:33:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > An Essay On the Duties of Man Addressed to Workingmen As revered as Mazzini was for his efforts at unity, I would add my opinion on his essay. While Mazzini mentions the *I AM*; throughout, in chapter V, he doesn't seem to integrate the *I AM*; in his essay, in a non Cartesian sense. 140+ years later his premises very much apply; yet we ignore them. Is it a random act which compels one to act a certain way; even though the evolution of consciousness is the force of the *I AM*? I see US hegemony being diluted; by this force, into a member of a World Government - much like the US's aggregation of States. The problem appears; to moi, to be one of the same ole same ole - dualism. Without an integration of this question in every day being, Mazzini's premise, only sets out the ideal but lacks the retro rockets that tweek behavior in line with his premise. Check out http://www.ecopsychology.org - we've tousled with this for a while. duncan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JackTar at aol.com Sat Apr 5 01:44:19 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 01:44:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <42.37146767.2bbfd543@aol.com> In a message dated 4/5/2003 12:53:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu writes: > "The relations [between words] are numberless, and no existing language is > capable of doing justice to all their shades. We ought to say a feeling of > > *and*, a feeling of *if*, a feeling of *but*, a feeling of *by*, quite as > readily as we say a feeling of blue or a feeling of cold. Yet we do not: > so > inveterate has our habit become of recognizing the existence of the > substantive > parts alone, that language almost refuses to lend itself to any other use" > (1:245). > > thanks... that's tough as nickel steak. where does this quote come from? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ggatza at daemen.edu Sat Apr 5 03:04:30 2003 From: ggatza at daemen.edu (Geoffrey Gatza) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 03:04:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1387 - 10 msgs References: <200304050323.h353N2ST003049@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <002101c2fb49$fc4acc60$605e3318@LINKAGE> >Professor Gudding creates harm to Iraqi people. As Iraqis realize their > >coming liberation many at this moment come forward and greet with > >friendship coalition warriors, but this liberation doesn't matter to Prof. > >Gudding. I caused harm to the iraqi people when I was a US Marine in the first installment of this docu-drama. Gabe is doing a wonderful thing by carpet bombing information emails. This is peaceful, this a weapon or words. God bless Gabe Gudding Gabe is Great Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k3 __o _`\<,_ (*) / (*) www.blazevox.org From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Apr 5 03:16:36 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 02:16:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] regarding the murder of innocent children by illegal US cluster munitions in hilla Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030405021220.012fbe98@mail.ilstu.edu> 1 interview & 1 article http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0404-06.htm Broadcast on Thursday, April 3, 2003 by Democracy Now! Massacre At Hilla: An Eyewitness Report by Amy Goodman, Jeremy Scahill and Nayla Razzouk Note: This is a rush transcript. Amy Goodman, Democracy Now! Host: Agence France Press correspondent Nayla Razzouk reports seeing cluster bomblets all over a neighborhood, though the Pentagon has denied using them in Hilla. However, the Pentagon has just admitted that they used them elsewhere in Iraq. Amnesty International has condemned the Hilla bombing and the US use of cluster bombs, saying that the use of cluster bombs against a civilian area of Hilla constitutes an indiscriminate attack in grave violation of international humanitarian law. Just before the program, we reached Nayla Razzouk of Agence France Press in Baghdad. Nayla Razzouk, Agence France Press Correspondent in Baghdad: I went down to Hilla yesterday, which was April 2nd, and the Information Ministry had organized a tour to the hospital in Hilla, which is a big city south of Baghdad- which is 80 kilometers from here, so about 50 miles south of the capital. We toured the hospital and talked to the patients and doctors and nurses in that hospital. Amy Goodman: And what did they say? Nayla Razzouk: Well, the people and the doctors said there was a bombing by planes on the outskirts of the town, and there were at lest 33 people killed and around 400 others wounded from that bombing that day. Amy Goodman: In your piece, you described a man who is sitting among the coffins of his family; can you describe him to us? Nayla Razzouk: Oh, that was a different story, you're confusing 2 stories in Hilla. The man we saw at the hospital who lost 15 people from his family is a man who was driving on a road in the outskirts of Hilla possibly around the time of the bombing- but who says he was the target of a bombing or strikes by helicopters on his vehicle- which was carrying, as he said; his wife, six children, his mother, his father, three of his brothers and their spouses, who were all dead. Amy Goodman: You have also written about the use of cluster bombs. Can you talk about that? Nayla Razzouk: Actually, yes. At the site where these people were bombed, the first incident, they said that what slammed in the area where they reside were parts of cluster bombs, which were bomb-lets that exploded around their houses, in their back yards- and they said a lot of bomb-lets were left on the ground. Our photographer who was there soon after the bombing has pictures of these bomb-lets equipped with small parachutes. Iraqi officials are saying these are parts of cluster bombs. The doctors at the hospital say that it appears that those wounded and killed were by cluster bombs, because of the locations of the injuries on the patients and the people who were killed and injured, their injuries concentrated on their lower limbs and in the head. This is what the doctors explained to us. And this, actually, is a lot of what we saw. We saw a lot of children that had burns and bruises and injuries on their legs. Amy Goodman: The US military Center Command said that they're dropping on Iraq, for the first time in combat history, a new version of a cluster bomb that adapts to wind and weather to hit targets more accurately- the 'CBU-105 wind corrected munitions dispenser'. Nayla Razzouk: Yes, actually, I read that report but there is no way to confirm it because we didn't see that. I think that was a kind of cluster bomb that was dropped on military targets in Iraq, not like the ones we saw in Hilla. In Hilla, it appears to be the usual cluster bombs, the doctors know that because of the kinds of injuries that they saw and from a lot of the pictures that the foreign media took that day and the next day, because a lot of them were still on the ground. The Iraqi army tried to remove some of the ordnance left on the ground, but of course this is a country in a war situation, so things don't get cleared as [quickly] as in a country where there's peace. So, that's why some of the Iraqi authorities are saying that the children have played with these ordnance and later on these blow up. Amy Goodman: Can you describe Nader, the 5 year old? Nayla Razzouk: Nader is a 5 year old who appears to be less than 5 years old. In a country such as Iraq, where the children suffer a lot, they often don't get enough food or have proper medicine- and some children often look younger than they are. He's 5 years old.he just sits on a bed and is a sad boy. He has a bandage on his eye- but we don't know what happened to him afterward because by the time I left he didn't have his operation yet. I hope that he'll regain his sight, he has a bandage on his eye and he sits there looking out the window. He's too young to understand what's going on, but from the people around him like his mother and his family, he knows something is happening, he is hearing the bombing. He is surely in shock. Amy Goodman: What exactly happened to him? Nayla Razzouk: Well, he was with his family when the bombing took place, but his house was saved from the bombing. Nothing happened to it, but he was still under shock from then. And then- according to his mother and family, and other people from the village, is when he went out the next day to play, that maybe he stepped on or kicked- you know how little boys kick things that are on the ground- and that it exploded. Amy Goodman: Nayla Razzouk is the Agence France Press reporter in Baghdad. Jeremy Scahill, Democracy Now! Correspondent: Nayla, I've wanted to ask you; we've heard reports that as many as 61 people have now died since Sunday from these attacks in Hilla. What are the numbers that you've seen and what do the hospitals look like in Hilla? Nayla Razzouk: Well, it's very difficult to have accurate figures about casualties in Hilla or in Baghdad, or anywhere in Iraq. The thing is this; the Minister of Information himself gives a press conference and he gives and figures. But a lot of the times when we go to hospitals, we find people and ask them where they were wounded, and then they come up with stories that no one ever reported about what happened in Hilla. Every time you went into a room, you had a different story, and I found a lot of stories that I never reported. You must understand, Hilla is about 50 miles from Baghdad, and this was the only time that we, as the press, had been allowed to go that far. So we don't really know what's happening. I assume that a lot of bombings are taking place in several places around the country and civilians are getting wounded, and often we don't know about them unless it is by accident. Just today, I was getting back from a neighborhood, and we found in that hospital, they brought in 10 people who were killed and dozens wounded. And when we asked where this had happened, they told us 'in a neighborhood near the city center', and nobody had ever reported about it. This is the way it happens usually. Jeremy Scahill: Nayla, what signs do you see of preparations for what many have been calling 'the siege of Baghdad'? We understand that they are saying US forces are just a few miles away from Baghdad. What is happening right now in the capital city? Nayla Razzouk: Well, I think the Iraqi population has been preparing for weeks with what it could find for food and medicine. The Iraqi authorities have distributed food rations for the next 6 months. So, in terms of food, the Iraqi people are technically prepared. They have been stocking fuel and water and digging water wells- but in terms of the security situation, we don't really know. Even though the US authorities claim to be at a short distance, the Iraqi authorities deny this and keep saying 'look at Basra and other cities in the south where the US, until today, did not answer. And the Iraqi official line is that the Americans can't enter any city in Iraq, and we cannot go to the periphery of the city to see just what's going on outside town. But apart from that, the streets of Baghdad are, since day one, we see deployments of armed elements and troops and police and security forces and armed elements from the ruling Ba'ath party and all kinds of deployments to guard the streets at every corner. Jeremy Scahill: Nayla Razzouk, from Agence France Press. We only have a few minutes and I know you're on a deadline, but I want to ask you about- we have seen reports of thousands of foreigners from Yemen or Palestine or Syria crossing international borders into Iraq to fight US forces. What evidence do you see about this? We heard that a group of Yemenis came to the Palestine Hotel where you are staying yesterday to announce their intent to become Fedayeen, 'self sacrificers' for Iraq. What do you seeing in terms of foreign mercenaries or Mujahideen crossing into Iraq? Nayla Razzouk: Well, it's not something new that we're seeing here. We have been reporting on it all along. I went to a training camp over a month ago where there were Arab nationals from a number of countries from Morocco to Saudi Arabia, from all kinds of countries, and even Arabs who had been living in Europe coming in to join training camps that have visited by the Iraqi authorities themselves. The people at these camps are usually between the ages of 20 and 40 years and they are adamant about joining the fight because of what they perceive as a fight against the Arabs and Muslims and they are required by their patriotic feelings and religious duties to combat what they call the 'invaders of Arab and Muslim land'. Actually, the other day Iraqi authorities announced that there was some 6,000 fighters, half of them ready to die for Iraq. Amy Goodman: Nayla Razzouk, Agence France reporter, speaking to us from Baghdad, Iraq. Copyright 2003 Democracy Now! http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0404-14.htm Broadcast on Friday, April 4, 2003 by the Canadian Press Civilian Casualties 'Horrifying' Truck Delivered Dismembered Women, Children by Dennis Bueckert OTTAWA -- Red Cross doctors who visited southern Iraq this week saw "incredible" levels of civilian casualties including a truckload of dismembered women and children, a spokesman said yesterday from Baghdad. Roland Huguenin, one of six International Red Cross workers in the Iraqi capital, said doctors were horrified by the casualties they found in the hospital in Hilla, about 160 kilometres south of Baghdad. "There has been an incredible number of casualties with very, very serious wounds in the region of Hilla," Huguenin said in a interview by satellite telephone. "We saw that a truck was delivering dozens of totally dismembered dead bodies of women and children. It was an awful sight. It was really very difficult to believe this was happening." Huguenin said the dead and injured in Hilla came from the village of Nasiriyah, where there has been heavy fighting between American troops and Iraqi soldiers, and appeared to be the result of "bombs, projectiles." "At this stage we cannot comment on the nature of what happened exactly at that place . . . but it was definitely a different pattern from what we had seen in Basra or Baghdad. "There will be investigations I am sure." Baghdad and Basra are coping relatively well with the flow of wounded, said Huguenin, estimating that Baghdad hospitals have been getting about 100 wounded a day. Most of the wounded in the two large cities have suffered superficial shrapnel wounds, with only about 15 per cent requiring internal surgery, he said. But the pattern in Hilla was completely different. "In the case of Hilla, everybody had very serious wounds and many, many of them small kids and women. We had small toddlers of two or three years of age who had lost their legs, their arms. We have called this a horror." At least 400 people were taken to the Hilla hospital over a period of two days, he said -- far beyond its capacity. "Doctors worked around the clock to do as much as they could. They just had to manage, that was all." The city is no longer accessible, he added. Red Cross staff are also concerned about what may be happening in other smaller centres south of Baghdad. "We do not know what is going on in Najaf and Karbala. It has become physically impossible for us to reach out to those cities because the major road has become a zone of combat." The Red Cross was able to claim one significant success this week: it played a key role in re-establishing water supplies at Basra. Power for a water-pumping station had been accidentally knocked out in the attack on the city, leaving about a million people without water. Iraqi technicians couldn't reach the station to repair it because it was under coalition control. ? 2003 Canadian Press From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 5 07:38:23 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 07:38:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: <1049521887.3e8e6edf0d05e@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <004001c2fb70$3faff400$c61afea9@j1c1k6> I've personally never been able to get anything out of more than two or three of Stein's buttons. They seem to me to be for people who like to free-associate but need starter texts. I think the question about a text like IT WAS BLACK, BLACK TOOK Black ink best wheel bale brown. Excellent not a hull house, not a pea soup, no bill no care, no precise no past pearl pearl goat. What makes it more worth experiencing aesthetically than ANY bunch of words, for instance: TRY BLINKER, TREPAN, IS IT TELLS Eel to be but meadow ceiling except round where miscue as table elbows fading faint ink kneels her bruise up which I just threw together now. John M. Bennett (often) writes poetry that on the surface seems on the surface tender-buttony but coheres around primitive moods in my view. I never find any unifying mood to any of Stein's buttons, just aimless free-association (which sometimes connects the way Dickinson's slant observations sometimes do). I'll look into the critic mentioned because I'm still open to the possibility that Stein's buttons are not self-indulgent solipsism, but I've only found one explication of a button by anyone that made sense to me. I can't remember what it was about, but its author was Stephen-Paul Martin. --Bob G. From mandolin at mac.com Sat Apr 5 09:02:51 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 09:02:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <83065.1049551371563.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> As Hal said, you can dip into it randomly and have fun for a while--about a class's worth--and, as others said, you can recognize and point out its connections with James, with concurrent movements the visual arts and music. Same with Finnegan's Wake. But, for me, it's the same joke over and over, and doesn't bear re-reading, or even finishing the first time. Much of the painting still works, but the music and the poetry and the fiction bore the crap out of me after short exposure. William James, though--inexhaustable. Michael On Friday, April 04, 2003, at 06:48PM, wrote: >Can someone explain why anyone would spend even >a microsecond's worth of attention on the following? > >Richard >>>IT WAS BLACK, BLACK TOOK >>> >>> Black ink best wheel bale brown. >>> Excellent not a hull house, not a pea soup, no bill no care, no >>>precise no past pearl pearl goat. >>> >>> >>>-- fr. Tender Buttons >>> >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 09:32:37 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 09:32:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <004001c2fb70$3faff400$c61afea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: { What makes it more worth experiencing aesthetically than ANY bunch of words, { for instance: { { TRY BLINKER, TREPAN, IS IT TELLS { { Eel to be but meadow { ceiling except round where miscue as table { elbows fading faint ink kneels her bruise up { { which I just threw together now. Try throwing words together like this more often, Bob. Hal "There are then quite a number of things one does or does not know." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 09:34:38 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 09:34:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <83065.1049551371563.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: That, I think, was said by one of the not-Hals around here. But, as Cage said, if you're bored after ten minutes, try it for twenty, and if you're still bored try it for forty, etc. Hal "I think I think; therefore I think I am." --Ambrose Bierce Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { As Hal said, you can dip into it randomly and have fun for a while--about a class's worth--and, as others said, you { can recognize and point out its connections with James, with concurrent movements the visual arts and music. Same { with Finnegan's Wake. But, for me, it's the same joke over and over, and doesn't bear re-reading, or even { finishing the first time. Much of the painting still works, but the music and the poetry and the fiction bore the crap { out of me after short exposure. { { William James, though--inexhaustable. { { Michael { { { { On Friday, April 04, 2003, at 06:48PM, wrote: { { >Can someone explain why anyone would spend even { >a microsecond's worth of attention on the following? { > { >Richard { >>>IT WAS BLACK, BLACK TOOK { >>> { >>> Black ink best wheel bale brown. { >>> Excellent not a hull house, not a pea soup, no bill no care, no { >>>precise no past pearl pearl goat. { >>> { >>> { >>>-- fr. Tender Buttons { >>> { >_______________________________________________ { >New-Poetry mailing list { >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { > { > { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 09:56:58 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 09:56:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koestenbaum on Stein Message-ID: "Reading Gertrude Stein takes enormous patience. The skeptical reader might wonder: what if Stein is not worth this lever of at- tentiveness? What if her writing doesn't reward close scrutiny? "Ask of your own life the same hard question: what if you stare fervently into your own mind and discover nothing there? "Stein insists that we enlarge our capacities--*even if the enterprise turns out to be bankrupt*. Reading Stein, we imagine a cognition of inordinate latitude and longitude; we hypothesize a literature as vast and self-indulgent as she imagined hers to be. Whether or not Stein achieved it, by reading her we are postulating the existence of a spacious poetics; we are bringing such poetics into being, even if it exists only in the form of the ambitions we attribute to Stein, the fealty that she requires of us, the expectations that she arouses and then excuses. Reading Stein is a process of having desire excited and then forgiven: she says, *you wanted a literature as huge and undetermined as the one I am offering you. I forgive you for the hedonism and the hubris of that wish*. "Be nice to Stein; you will thereby learn to be tolerant of your own Steinian voracity--a hunger for sentences, a dis- satisfaction with every extant sentence except those that you invented, an intolerance for any sentence that you are not in the midst of writing." --Wayne Koestenbaum section #1 (of 15) fr. "Stein is Nice" in *Cleavage* [New York: Ballantine Books, 2000] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From sellwein at hotmail.com Sat Apr 5 10:12:34 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 10:12:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koestenbaum on Stein Message-ID: Thanks for sharing this post. I admire her personality, at least what I 'know' of her personality. Much appreciation, Deborah Russell http://groups.msn.com/ParallelsStudio http://www.worldhaikureview.org "Reading Gertrude Stein takes enormous patience. The skeptical reader might wonder: what if Stein is not worth this lever of at- tentiveness? What if her writing doesn't reward close scrutiny? "Ask of your own life the same hard question: what if you stare fervently into your own mind and discover nothing there? "Stein insists that we enlarge our capacities--*even if the enterprise turns out to be bankrupt*. Reading Stein, we imagine a cognition of inordinate latitude and longitude; we hypothesize a literature as vast and self-indulgent as she imagined hers to be. Whether or not Stein achieved it, by reading her we are postulating the existence of a spacious poetics; we are bringing such poetics into being, even if it exists only in the form of the ambitions we attribute to Stein, the fealty that she requires of us, the expectations that she arouses and then excuses. Reading Stein is a process of having desire excited and then forgiven: she says, *you wanted a literature as huge and undetermined as the one I am offering you. I forgive you for the hedonism and the hubris of that wish*. "Be nice to Stein; you will thereby learn to be tolerant of your own Steinian voracity--a hunger for sentences, a dis- satisfaction with every extant sentence except those that you invented, an intolerance for any sentence that you are not in the midst of writing." --Wayne Koestenbaum section #1 (of 15) fr. "Stein is Nice" in *Cleavage* [New York: Ballantine Books, 2000] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 5 11:19:25 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 10:19:25 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <83065.1049551371563.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: I'm with Michael Snider on Stein's work--it's not something that I find very nourishing, certainly not in large doses. But the curious outrage that she can still provoke, even nearly a century later, certainly tells you something. What, I am not sure, but something. Joyce, Picasso, Stravinsky, et al. have been pretty thoroughly domesticated and integrated into highbrow culture, while Stein retains the ability to piss people off. That's certainly an accomplishment of a certain kind. I've not read Stein voluminously, having fallen asleep in the middle of every longer piece I've tried, but *Tender Buttons* may be my favorite item, mainly because the pieces are bite-sized and generally quite fun. They must be read aloud, no? Easier to appreciate her interesting ear in small bites, I think. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > From: Michael Snider > > As Hal said, you can dip into it randomly and have fun for a while--about a > class's worth--and, as others said, you can recognize and point out its > connections with James, with concurrent movements the visual arts and music. > Same with Finnegan's Wake. But, for me, it's the same joke over and over, > and doesn't bear re-reading, or even finishing the first time. Much of the > painting still works, but the music and the poetry and the fiction bore the > crap out of me after short exposure. > > William James, though--inexhaustable. > > Michael >>>> IT WAS BLACK, BLACK TOOK >>>> >>>> Black ink best wheel bale brown. >>>> Excellent not a hull house, not a pea soup, no bill no care, no >>>> precise no past pearl pearl goat. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- fr. Tender Buttons >>>> From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 11:16:07 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 11:16:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koestenbaum on Stein In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { "Reading Gertrude Stein takes enormous patience. The skeptical { reader might wonder: what if Stein is not worth this lever of at- { tentiveness? What if her writing doesn't reward close scrutiny? While I love "lever of attentiveness" and will probably find some use for the phrase in the near future, Koestenbaum's phrase was "level of attentiveness." Mea culpa. Hal "I have the feeling that we are getting nowhere, and that is a pleasure." --John Cage Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 11:22:47 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 11:22:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { I've not read Stein voluminously, having fallen asleep in the middle of { every longer piece I've tried, but *Tender Buttons* may be my favorite item, { mainly because the pieces are bite-sized and generally quite fun. They must { be read aloud, no? Easier to appreciate her interesting ear in small { bites, I think. That first sentence certainly attests to her value, David, and I agree with the small bites bit. I read her that way too, as I do practically everyone else--a line here, a line or two there, a paragraph, a page. Works for me. Stein also works nicely when set to music--Virgil Thomson, for example. Hal "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." --Albert Einstein Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 11:37:19 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 09:37:19 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koestenbaum on Stein References: Message-ID: <3E8F063F.131895D@earthlink.net> Reminds me of a student some years back. In yet another maneuver to get them to understand the difference between spewing out streams (or rivulets) of consciousness, I asked the class to just stop sometime and try to overhear the non-stop "narrative" of the mind. We had a bit of meditation time and some students started to lift their heads, smiling. At the next class meeting, this one male student showed up looking haggard and depressed. During our break, I asked him if anything was bothering him. "Yes," he said, "I've been trying to listen to my mind all week and there's nothing going on." He was truly crushed. - Jim Halvard Johnson wrote: > > "Reading Gertrude Stein takes enormous patience. The skeptical > reader might wonder: what if Stein is not worth this lever of at- > tentiveness? What if her writing doesn't reward close scrutiny? > "Ask of your own life the same hard question: what if you > stare fervently into your own mind and discover nothing there? > "Stein insists that we enlarge our capacities--*even if the > enterprise turns out to be bankrupt*. Reading Stein, we imagine > a cognition of inordinate latitude and longitude; we hypothesize a > literature as vast and self-indulgent as she imagined hers to be. > Whether or not Stein achieved it, by reading her we are postulating > the existence of a spacious poetics; we are bringing such poetics > into being, even if it exists only in the form of the ambitions we > attribute to Stein, the fealty that she requires of us, the expectations > that she arouses and then excuses. Reading Stein is a process of > having desire excited and then forgiven: she says, *you wanted > a literature as huge and undetermined as the one I am offering > you. I forgive you for the hedonism and the hubris of that wish*. > "Be nice to Stein; you will thereby learn to be tolerant of > your own Steinian voracity--a hunger for sentences, a dis- > satisfaction with every extant sentence except those that you > invented, an intolerance for any sentence that you are not in the > midst of writing." > > --Wayne Koestenbaum > > section #1 (of 15) fr. "Stein is Nice" > in *Cleavage* [New York: Ballantine Books, 2000] > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sat Apr 5 11:32:11 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 11:32:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koestenbaum on Stein In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030405113211.002145@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Halvard Johnson wrote: > "Ask of your own life the same hard question: what if you >stare fervently into your own mind and discover nothing there? I should be so lucky... Wendy ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu The wall between where we are? and the Self is called the mind. --S. J. Bharat From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 11:41:03 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 09:41:03 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Tender Buttons References: Message-ID: <3E8F071F.8FEFD0F2@earthlink.net> David Graham wrote: > > I'm with Michael Snider on Stein's work--it's not something that I find very > nourishing, certainly not in large doses. But the curious outrage that she > can still provoke, even nearly a century later, certainly tells you > something. What, I am not sure, but something. > > Joyce, Picasso, Stravinsky, et al. have been pretty thoroughly domesticated > and integrated into highbrow culture, while Stein retains the ability to > piss people off. Don't you think that says as much about readers as Stein? - Jim From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sat Apr 5 11:45:32 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 18:45:32 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Tender Buttons References: Message-ID: <002f01c2fb92$c68cabe0$9c737450@anny> And you have "Tender Buttons" on your library, great Man, thanks, anny From: "David Graham" > I'm with Michael Snider on Stein's work--it's not something that I find very > nourishing, certainly not in large doses. But the curious outrage that she > can still provoke, even nearly a century later, certainly tells you > something. What, I am not sure, but something. > > Joyce, Picasso, Stravinsky, et al. have been pretty thoroughly domesticated > and integrated into highbrow culture, while Stein retains the ability to > piss people off. That's certainly an accomplishment of a certain kind. > > I've not read Stein voluminously, having fallen asleep in the middle of > every longer piece I've tried, but *Tender Buttons* may be my favorite item, > mainly because the pieces are bite-sized and generally quite fun. They must > be read aloud, no? Easier to appreciate her interesting ear in small > bites, I think. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > From: Michael Snider > > > > As Hal said, you can dip into it randomly and have fun for a while--about a > > class's worth--and, as others said, you can recognize and point out its > > connections with James, with concurrent movements the visual arts and music. > > Same with Finnegan's Wake. But, for me, it's the same joke over and over, > > and doesn't bear re-reading, or even finishing the first time. Much of the > > painting still works, but the music and the poetry and the fiction bore the > > crap out of me after short exposure. > > > > William James, though--inexhaustable. > > > > Michael > > >>>> IT WAS BLACK, BLACK TOOK > >>>> > >>>> Black ink best wheel bale brown. > >>>> Excellent not a hull house, not a pea soup, no bill no care, no > >>>> precise no past pearl pearl goat. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- fr. Tender Buttons > >>>> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From sellwein at hotmail.com Sat Apr 5 11:56:18 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 11:56:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koestenbaum on Stein Message-ID: :) Reminds me of a student some years back. In yet another maneuver to get them to understand the difference between spewing out streams (or rivulets) of consciousness, I asked the class to just stop sometime and try to overhear the non-stop "narrative" of the mind. We had a bit of meditation time and some students started to lift their heads, smiling. At the next class meeting, this one male student showed up looking haggard and depressed. During our break, I asked him if anything was bothering him. "Yes," he said, "I've been trying to listen to my mind all week and there's nothing going on." He was truly crushed. - Jim Halvard Johnson wrote: > > "Reading Gertrude Stein takes enormous patience. The skeptical > reader might wonder: what if Stein is not worth this lever of at- > tentiveness? What if her writing doesn't reward close scrutiny? > "Ask of your own life the same hard question: what if you > stare fervently into your own mind and discover nothing there? > "Stein insists that we enlarge our capacities--*even if the > enterprise turns out to be bankrupt*. Reading Stein, we imagine > a cognition of inordinate latitude and longitude; we hypothesize a > literature as vast and self-indulgent as she imagined hers to be. > Whether or not Stein achieved it, by reading her we are postulating > the existence of a spacious poetics; we are bringing such poetics > into being, even if it exists only in the form of the ambitions we > attribute to Stein, the fealty that she requires of us, the expectations > that she arouses and then excuses. Reading Stein is a process of > having desire excited and then forgiven: she says, *you wanted > a literature as huge and undetermined as the one I am offering > you. I forgive you for the hedonism and the hubris of that wish*. > "Be nice to Stein; you will thereby learn to be tolerant of > your own Steinian voracity--a hunger for sentences, a dis- > satisfaction with every extant sentence except those that you > invented, an intolerance for any sentence that you are not in the > midst of writing." > > --Wayne Koestenbaum > > section #1 (of 15) fr. "Stein is Nice" > in *Cleavage* [New York: Ballantine Books, 2000] > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 5 12:05:04 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 11:05:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons online In-Reply-To: <002f01c2fb92$c68cabe0$9c737450@anny> Message-ID: Yes, *Tender Buttons* is linked on my Poetry Library site, along with much more. http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/grahamd/FullText.html The above link will take you to the full-text books page. Many of the links are to Bartleby.com. I do love Bartleby--if you haven't visited, you'll find a lot of great material there, whole books by many poets. In addition to *Tender Buttons* for Stein, they have the entirety of *Three Lives* online. Also a lot of early work by Frost, Williams, Eliot, Lawrence, Sandburg, et al. My page also will get you to more contemporary books, many of which are found at Wendy Battin's marvelous CAPA. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > From: "Anny Ballardini" > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 18:45:32 +0200 > To: > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:Tender Buttons > > And you have "Tender Buttons" on your library, great Man, thanks, > anny > > From: "David Graham" > From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 5 12:12:24 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 12:12:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Purpose of the NewPoetry List Message-ID: <9.e4c0548.2bc06878@aol.com> Some people need to go back to the information page of this list and refresh their memories as to the purpose of this list and its prohibition against personal attacks... http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry This list is not a personal blog/soapbox. And I doubt any of the 150 or so members of this list signed on in hope of reading ad hominem posts. Remember what this list is for, and please respect this space for what it is. Jim Finnegan List Manager From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Apr 5 12:29:37 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 12:29:37 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Tender Buttons Message-ID: <1d2.6cdb814.2bc06c81@cs.com> In a message dated 4/5/2003 10:38:40 AM Central Standard Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > Joyce, Picasso, Stravinsky, et al. have been pretty thoroughly domesticated > >and integrated into highbrow culture, while Stein retains the ability to > >piss people off. Didn't she draw huge, admiring crowds on her American tours? I know that this probably had more to do with publicity than literature, but she apparently could hold a lecture stage pretty well. Does anyone know what she did at these events? For my money, the Toklas autobiography is much more fun than "TB." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Apr 5 12:35:17 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 12:35:17 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <1f1.5eb7550.2bc06dd5@cs.com> In a message dated 4/5/2003 12:49:02 AM Central Standard Time, JackTar at aol.com writes: > > >> "The relations [between words] are numberless, and no existing language >> is >> capable of doing justice to all their shades. We ought to say a feeling >> of >> *and*, a feeling of *if*, a feeling of *but*, a feeling of *by*, quite as >> readily as we say a feeling of blue or a feeling of cold. Yet we do not: >> so >> inveterate has our habit become of recognizing the existence of the >> substantive >> parts alone, that language almost refuses to lend itself to any other use" >> >> (1:245). >> > I think cummings did the best job of putting this idea into action. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Apr 5 12:37:48 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 12:37:48 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Purpose of the NewPoetry List Message-ID: <67.dc16720.2bc06e6c@cs.com> In a message dated 4/5/2003 11:17:35 AM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > Remember > what this list is for, and please respect this space > for what it is. > Jim Finnegan > List Manager Amen to that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 12:55:05 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 12:55:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Centcom Briefing Sonnet #2" Message-ID: Centcom Briefing Sonnet #2 The first and final image is of an ammo dump near Baghdad, which illustrates our approach to reviving the Iraqi economy by planting trees all around, using the combined waters of Lake Huron, Lake Superior, and Babylon to flourish them. Where centuries twist toward the light, and special operations forces have also been effective interdicting movements into or out of Iraq, single-purpose vehicles wheel along at a nice clip. There is no future for the regime or anyone who supports it. We've made that statement clearly a number of times, and we'll continue to say it. We'd be happy to guarantee that they have no future. Will they fight to the death? Probably. We're seeing that in a number of places. Alarms have passed. The sun travels on. Those who are indeed in the open have everything to lose and will lose it. It's better to err on the safe side and destroy them than to do otherwise. We want to ensure that no capability can come up, especially from western airfields. They were in the open and they were attacked, and the trees often vary in both color and substance. Flame more or less comes and goes. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Apr 5 13:05:02 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 12:05:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] ad hominem In-Reply-To: <002101c2fb49$fc4acc60$605e3318@LINKAGE> References: <200304050323.h353N2ST003049@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030405112239.02ec9e80@mail.ilstu.edu> Thanks to poet Geoffrey Gatza for speaking up for peace as a combat veteran of, a US Marine in, Gulf War 1, and for thanking me for my efforts in the face of some very weird and at times abusive posts on new-poetry I and a number of others have been kind of shocked at the degree of ad hominem attack and sniping on New-Poetry. "The list is unmoderated; however, posters who engage in name calling, cursing, or other kinds of aggressive or derisive postings outside the bounds of civilized discussion, will be banned." I guess it takes a lot to ban someone from New-Poetry. I have heard that a few people, whose names I have on filter, have accused me of ad hominem but I've reviewed my posts to see if this is true, and after wading through the posts in which I was called a "liar" and a "dupe," with my name in the subject line along side words like "seditionist" and "dupe," posts in which words were put in my mouth, I could not find one instance of ad hominem on my part. I think I may have called two people rude -- and if this is considered ad hominem rather than self-defense, I'd be shocked. If I'm wrong, please point it out and I'll apologize. I will keep posting, as I've cleared it with the list moderator, anti-war urls and abstracts. I feel the war has a great deal to do with poetry and impacts my poetry strongly and nearly every poet I speak to. Gabe >I caused harm to the iraqi people when I was a US Marine in the first >installment of this docu-drama. Gabe is doing a wonderful thing by carpet >bombing information emails. This is peaceful, this a weapon or words. > >God bless Gabe Gudding >Gabe is Great > >Best, Geoffrey > > > >Geoffrey Gatza >editor BlazeVOX2k3 > > __o > _`\<,_ > (*) / (*) > >www.blazevox.org From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 5 13:16:01 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 13:16:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: Message-ID: <002101c2fb9f$6d698940$c61afea9@j1c1k6> > { What makes it more worth experiencing aesthetically than ANY bunch of words, > { for instance: > > { TRY BLINKER, TREPAN, IS IT TELLS > > { Eel to be but meadow > { ceiling except round where miscue as table > { elbows fading faint ink kneels her bruise up > > { which I just threw together now. > > Try throwing words together like this more often, Bob. > > Hal It's too boringly easy to do, Hal. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 5 13:17:50 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 13:17:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koestenbaum on Stein References: Message-ID: <002701c2fb9f$acb1cae0$c61afea9@j1c1k6> The following is a DEFENSE of Stein? > "Reading Gertrude Stein takes enormous patience. The skeptical > reader might wonder: what if Stein is not worth this lever of at- > tentiveness? What if her writing doesn't reward close scrutiny? > "Ask of your own life the same hard question: what if you > stare fervently into your own mind and discover nothing there? > "Stein insists that we enlarge our capacities--*even if the > enterprise turns out to be bankrupt*. Reading Stein, we imagine > a cognition of inordinate latitude and longitude; we hypothesize a > literature as vast and self-indulgent as she imagined hers to be. > Whether or not Stein achieved it, by reading her we are postulating > the existence of a spacious poetics; we are bringing such poetics > into being, even if it exists only in the form of the ambitions we > attribute to Stein, the fealty that she requires of us, the expectations > that she arouses and then excuses. Reading Stein is a process of > having desire excited and then forgiven: she says, *you wanted > a literature as huge and undetermined as the one I am offering > you. I forgive you for the hedonism and the hubris of that wish*. > "Be nice to Stein; you will thereby learn to be tolerant of > your own Steinian voracity--a hunger for sentences, a dis- > satisfaction with every extant sentence except those that you > invented, an intolerance for any sentence that you are not in the > midst of writing." > > --Wayne Koestenbaum From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 5 13:22:46 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 13:22:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: Message-ID: <004b01c2fba0$5dc62100$c61afea9@j1c1k6> > That, I think, was said by one of the not-Hals around here. > > But, as Cage said, if you're bored after ten minutes, try it for > twenty, and if you're still bored try it for forty, etc. > Hal I think at some point you have to ask if anyone else is NOT bored, and find out what it is that keeps that person from being bored. If neither he nor anyone else can specify it, it's pretty probable that he just likes ink-blot fun. --Bob G. From j-mccann1 at tamu.edu Sat Apr 5 14:01:34 2003 From: j-mccann1 at tamu.edu (Janet McCann) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 13:01:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <002101c2fb9f$6d698940$c61afea9@j1c1k6> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030405130134.00946530@neo.tamu.edu> For me what makes GS worth reading and returning to is the weird, wired energy in the work, which pulls the reader through the poem by means of rhythms and repetitions. My students go for her in a big way; Stein will wake them up when, alas, my favorite poet Wallace Stevens often puts them to sleep. I don't try to analyze Stein's meanings--I think they often are in the movement of the poem. Is "Susie Asado" a tap dance? Is it a representation as one critic says of a Japanese tea ceremony, suggested by the name Asado and some of the images? But Asado means "baked" in Spanish, doesn't it? Does any of this matter, if you are yanked into the poem by the hair and electrified by it? SUSIE ASADO by Gertrude Stein Sweet sweet sweet sweet sweet tea. Susie Asado. Sweet sweet sweet sweet sweet tea. Susie Asado. Susie Asado which is a told tray sure. A lean on the shoe this means slips slips hers. When the ancient light grey is clean it is yellow, it is a silver seller. This is a please this is a please there are the saids to jelly. These are the wets these say the sets to leave a crown to Incy. Incy is short for incubus. A pot. A pot is a beginning of a rare bit of trees. Trees tremble, the old vats are in bobbles, bobbles which shade and shove and render clean, render clean must. Drink pups. Drink pups drink pups lease a sash hold, see it shine and a bobolink has pins. It shows a nail. What is a nail. A nail is unison. Sweet sweet sweet sweet sweet tea. Gertrude Stein At 01:16 PM 4/5/2003 -0500, you wrote: >> { What makes it more worth experiencing aesthetically than ANY bunch of >words, >> { for instance: >> > >> { TRY BLINKER, TREPAN, IS IT TELLS >> > >> { Eel to be but meadow >> { ceiling except round where miscue as table >> { elbows fading faint ink kneels her bruise up >> > >> { which I just threw together now. >> >> Try throwing words together like this more often, Bob. >> >> Hal > >It's too boringly easy to do, Hal. > >--Bob G. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 13:46:51 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 13:46:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <002101c2fb9f$6d698940$c61afea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: { > Try throwing words together like this more often, Bob. { > { > Hal { { It's too boringly easy to do, Hal. { { --Bob G. Then do it with handcuffs on, or standing on your head. Or do it long enough to come to see its difficulties and its pleasures. Hal "I have the feeling that we are getting nowhere, and that is a pleasure." --John Cage Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 13:47:51 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 13:47:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koestenbaum on Stein In-Reply-To: <002701c2fb9f$acb1cae0$c61afea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: Well, maybe, as I said, the beginning of one. Hal { The following is a DEFENSE of Stein? { { > "Reading Gertrude Stein takes enormous patience. The skeptical { > reader might wonder: what if Stein is not worth this lever of at- { > tentiveness? What if her writing doesn't reward close scrutiny? { > "Ask of your own life the same hard question: what if you { > stare fervently into your own mind and discover nothing there? { > "Stein insists that we enlarge our capacities--*even if the { > enterprise turns out to be bankrupt*. Reading Stein, we imagine { > a cognition of inordinate latitude and longitude; we hypothesize a { > literature as vast and self-indulgent as she imagined hers to be. { > Whether or not Stein achieved it, by reading her we are postulating { > the existence of a spacious poetics; we are bringing such poetics { > into being, even if it exists only in the form of the ambitions we { > attribute to Stein, the fealty that she requires of us, the expectations { > that she arouses and then excuses. Reading Stein is a process of { > having desire excited and then forgiven: she says, *you wanted { > a literature as huge and undetermined as the one I am offering { > you. I forgive you for the hedonism and the hubris of that wish*. { > "Be nice to Stein; you will thereby learn to be tolerant of { > your own Steinian voracity--a hunger for sentences, a dis- { > satisfaction with every extant sentence except those that you { > invented, an intolerance for any sentence that you are not in the { > midst of writing." { > { > --Wayne Koestenbaum { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Sat Apr 5 14:00:42 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 03 14:00:42 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <200304051901.h35J15Qo050084@westrelay04.boulder.ibm.com> This sounds like a prescription to a restless masochist to me. If this is an appreciation of Stein, I'll have limburger. Richard >>"Reading Gertrude Stein takes enormous patience. The skeptical >>reader might wonder: what if Stein is not worth this lever of at- >>tentiveness? What if her writing doesn't reward close scrutiny? >> "Ask of your own life the same hard question: what if you >>stare fervently into your own mind and discover nothing there? >> "Stein insists that we enlarge our capacities--*even if the >>enterprise turns out to be bankrupt*. Reading Stein, we imagine >>a cognition of inordinate latitude and longitude; we hypothesize a >>literature as vast and self-indulgent as she imagined hers to be. >>Whether or not Stein achieved it, by reading her we are postulating >>the existence of a spacious poetics; we are bringing such poetics >>into being, even if it exists only in the form of the ambitions we >>attribute to Stein, the fealty that she requires of us, the expectations >>that she arouses and then excuses. Reading Stein is a process of >>having desire excited and then forgiven: she says, *you wanted >>a literature as huge and undetermined as the one I am offering >>you. I forgive you for the hedonism and the hubris of that wish*. >> "Be nice to Stein; you will thereby learn to be tolerant of >>your own Steinian voracity--a hunger for sentences, a dis- >>satisfaction with every extant sentence except those that you >>invented, an intolerance for any sentence that you are not in the >>midst of writing." >> >>--Wayne Koestenbaum >> >>section #1 (of 15) fr. "Stein is Nice" >>in *Cleavage* [New York: Ballantine Books, 2000] >> From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Sat Apr 5 14:02:44 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 03 14:02:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] tender buttons Message-ID: <200304051903.h35J36NG110496@northrelay04.pok.ibm.com> G. Stein G. Stein says remarks are not literature I say G. has no clothes From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 5 14:18:45 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 13:18:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20030405130134.00946530@neo.tamu.edu> Message-ID: I have no reason not to believe teachers who say that students like Gertrude Stein's work. But I've been teaching at various places since 1978, and I don't think I've met more than three or four who like this stuff. Interesting. I suspect that I just don't know how to teach Stein; that while a teacher's enthusiasm can make nearly anything interesting to many students, I'm just unable to disguise my own lack of engagement with the material. Still, I've successfully taught Henry James, and there are few writers I find more reliable as cures for insomnia than Henry James. . . . Stein became a running joke in one poetry workshop a couple years back. After playing a recording of her reading her portrait of Picasso, I found that the students hated her so much that I could sometimes get them back on task by threatening to play it again if they didn't focus. Same thing occurred once when I played Philip Glass to inspire some freewriting. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > From: Janet McCann > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 13:01:34 -0600 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons > > For me what makes GS worth reading and returning to is the weird, wired > energy in the work, which pulls the reader through the poem by means of > rhythms and repetitions. My students go for her in a big way; Stein will > wake them up when, alas, my favorite poet Wallace Stevens often puts them > to sleep. I don't try to analyze Stein's meanings--I think they often are > in the movement of the poem. Is "Susie Asado" a tap dance? Is it a > representation as one critic says of a Japanese tea ceremony, suggested by > the name Asado and some of the images? But Asado means "baked" in Spanish, > doesn't it? Does any of this matter, if you are yanked into the poem by the > hair and electrified by it? > > From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Sat Apr 5 14:18:53 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 03 14:18:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] more prescriptions for masochists Message-ID: <200304051919.h35JJFNG088372@northrelay04.pok.ibm.com> > > But, as Cage said, if you're bored after ten minutes, try it for > twenty, and if you're still bored try it for forty, etc. > > >>Then do it with handcuffs on, or standing on your head. >>Or do it long enough to come to see its difficulties >>and its pleasures. R. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Apr 5 14:20:54 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 14:20:54 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <12f.27340987.2bc08696@cs.com> In a message dated 4/5/2003 12:59:21 PM Central Standard Time, j-mccann1 at tamu.edu writes: > Is "Susie Asado" a tap dance? Is it a > representation as one critic says of a Japanese tea ceremony, suggested by > the name Asado and some of the images? But Asado means "baked" in Spanish, > doesn't it? I always thought it was a Tex-Mex version of raw fish. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Apr 5 14:24:25 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 14:24:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tender Buttons Message-ID: <90.35176454.2bc08769@cs.com> In a message dated 4/5/2003 1:23:12 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > Stein became a running joke in one poetry workshop a couple years back. > After playing a recording of her reading her portrait of Picasso, I found > that the students hated her so much that I could sometimes get them back on > task by threatening to play it again if they didn't focus. > > Same thing occurred once when I played Philip Glass to inspire some > freewriting. > I always use the Sitwells to produce this effect. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Sat Apr 5 14:26:11 2003 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 11:26:11 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tender Buttons References: Message-ID: <004301c2fba9$3951c460$a3361c40@0021936706> David, I haven't taught Stein before, but I hope to sometime in the future. I think your point about enthusiasm is a good one. Most of my teaching experience (aside from a few poetry workshops, which I loved to teach when the balance was more poetry, less workshop) of the past few years has been composition, and although teaching a rhetorically-based composition course can be a snore, I manage to be enthusiastic enough to convince my students that responsible argumentation can be interesting, can even be fun. I use poetry from time to time in my comp classes, but I don't think GS is the best fit for freshman comp. That said, I recall, probably a year ago now, I back-channeled you my "defense of Stein," which was really more of an impromptu personal essay about why Stein is engaging to me. She still is. I can't rationally explain it, however. My disseration advisor rolled her eyes when I admitted to her that I LIKE "Tender Buttons," that I actually read and reread it frequently. That said, I took a poetry class from the same professor years ago as an undergraduate, and it was her very lucid teaching of the "difficult" poem, "Susie Asado" that turned me on to GS. So go figure. Best, Tony *** "The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." Emily Dickinson *** "I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth century." C. Montgomery Burns *** "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be better left alone." Kenneth Koch *** ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker" From antrobin at clipper.net Sat Apr 5 14:27:05 2003 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 11:27:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: <12f.27340987.2bc08696@cs.com> Message-ID: <005301c2fba9$5d2a6720$a3361c40@0021936706> Gwynn writes: "I always thought it was a Tex-Mex version of raw fish." Nah, that's Ceviche. Tasty stuff, that is. T. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sat Apr 5 14:53:01 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 14:53:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] recipe/found poem In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20030405130134.00946530@neo.tamu.edu> Message-ID: <20030405145301.008585@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Janet McCann wrote: > But Asado means "baked" in Spanish, >doesn't it? Way of preparing:? The meat is punctured and they are introduced in her the capers, the raisins, pieces of? ham and olives. Then the meat is marinated with the onion, the paprika, the salt, the? pepper and the vinegar. Allow it to rest for space of at least half hour.? In the same pot where you will cook the roasted one, it places the oil and it fries lightly the meat? until you go it puts golden. Then water is placed? to Place the one? I season fact with the garlic, the onion, the paprika, the sugar, the salt and the pepper together? with the water and the roasted one. Every time that dries off the pot to place another little bit of? it dilutes until the meat is soft and have been formed the sauce. This process? it can be taken among 60-90 minutes.? from http://members.tripod.com/~wildlife_vzla/gastro-asado.htm ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu A tree never hits a car except in self-defense. ---Salada teabag From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sat Apr 5 15:02:39 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:02:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] recipe/found poem In-Reply-To: <20030405145301.008585@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <20030405150239.006977@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> I neglected to post the ingredients: Roasted? Ingredients:? --------? 1 Kg. (4-5 people) of Roasted? 1 spoonful of capers? 2 spoonfuls of raisins? 1 big chopped onion? 1 big paprika ( 4-5 cloves of garlic? 1/2 cup of vinegar or lemon extract? 4 spoonfuls of oil? 1/2 liter of water? salt to the pleasure? sugar to the pleasure? pepper to the pleasure? Optionally you can use olives and ham to put it in the meat? and thyme or oregano to decorate the sauce.? ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu salt to the pleasure? sugar to the pleasure? pepper to the pleasure From Faustina1 at aol.com Sat Apr 5 15:15:33 2003 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:15:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <17c.1900ff4c.2bc09365@aol.com> I like that, though: "Susie Ceviche." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Faustina1 at aol.com Sat Apr 5 15:17:08 2003 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:17:08 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] recipe/found poem Message-ID: <10e.209f3dfe.2bc093c4@aol.com> Coooool. Gertrude Stein would've loved it. (Janet, on other account) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 5 15:33:17 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:33:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: Message-ID: <007101c2fbb2$97c7cf40$c61afea9@j1c1k6> > { > Try throwing words together like this more often, Bob. > { > > { > Hal > > { It's too boringly easy to do, Hal. > > { --Bob G. > > Then do it with handcuffs on, or standing on your head. > Or do it long enough to come to see its difficulties > and its pleasures. That assumes I have nothing better to do. But I feel that the kind of poetry I compose, and to which most people react like I react to Tender Buttons, is more challenging for me. One thing that makes it so is that I have to try to make it interesting for a potential reader other than myself, and at the same time mean something consequential--which needn't be semantically. --Bob G. From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Sat Apr 5 15:41:37 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:41:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1049575297.3e8f3f818fd63@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Ah, David, but you see: you *have* given the game away here before your students had a chance, turning The Completed Portrait into a laughing stock. That poem is, I think, beautiful to listen to ("Miracles play. / Play fairly. / Play fairly well. / A well. / As well.") Beyond this its a very readbale piece - start with the fact that Picasso famously tortured Stein while doing *her* portrait and with the fact that her nickname for him was "Napolean" ("would he like it?) and on to such gems as the vaginal (to combat Picasso's phallic) "shutters shut and open so do queens" a sort of clipped iambic pentameter which is then literally deconstructed, the "shutter" become a punned "shudder" or an echoed "stutter." You know, it's fun, audacious stuff, arguable *very* referential. You're right, enthusiasm accounts for much of students "liking it," as always. It's worth noting probably that a kind of lesbian coding, Stein's own invented symbolic economy, informs much of Tender Buttons and that unlocking that makes it make alot more sense - "Rub her coke" "the muncher muncher munchers" etc. To have that along with the cubist interest in the visual (Stein's domestic space - Objects, Rooms, Food) is to have quite a bit to go on. -m. Quoting David Graham : > I have no reason not to believe teachers who say that students like Gertrude > Stein's work. But I've been teaching at various places since 1978, and I > don't think I've met more than three or four who like this stuff. > Interesting. > > I suspect that I just don't know how to teach Stein; that while a teacher's > enthusiasm can make nearly anything interesting to many students, I'm just > unable to disguise my own lack of engagement with the material. Still, I've > successfully taught Henry James, and there are few writers I find more > reliable as cures for insomnia than Henry James. . . . > > Stein became a running joke in one poetry workshop a couple years back. > After playing a recording of her reading her portrait of Picasso, I found > that the students hated her so much that I could sometimes get them back on > task by threatening to play it again if they didn't focus. > > Same thing occurred once when I played Philip Glass to inspire some > freewriting. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > From: Janet McCann > > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 13:01:34 -0600 > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons > > > > For me what makes GS worth reading and returning to is the weird, wired > > energy in the work, which pulls the reader through the poem by means of > > rhythms and repetitions. My students go for her in a big way; Stein will > > wake them up when, alas, my favorite poet Wallace Stevens often puts them > > to sleep. I don't try to analyze Stein's meanings--I think they often are > > in the movement of the poem. Is "Susie Asado" a tap dance? Is it a > > representation as one critic says of a Japanese tea ceremony, suggested by > > the name Asado and some of the images? But Asado means "baked" in > Spanish, > > doesn't it? Does any of this matter, if you are yanked into the poem by > the > > hair and electrified by it? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 5 15:40:51 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:40:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: <3.0.6.32.20030405130134.00946530@neo.tamu.edu> Message-ID: <008801c2fbb3$aa51cac0$c61afea9@j1c1k6> > For me what makes GS worth reading and returning to is the weird, wired > energy in the work, which pulls the reader through the poem by means of > rhythms and repetitions. My students go for her in a big way; Stein will > wake them up when, alas, my favorite poet Wallace Stevens often puts them > to sleep. I don't try to analyze Stein's meanings--I think they often are > in the movement of the poem. Is "Susie Asado" a tap dance? Is it a > representation as one critic says of a Japanese tea ceremony, suggested by > the name Asado and some of the images? But Asado means "baked" in Spanish, > doesn't it? Does any of this matter, if you are yanked into the poem by the > hair and electrified by it? --Janet McCann I think so, because I think literary criticism and aesthetic knowledge matter. It also matters because I am not yanked into the buttons and electrified, and would like to know why, since I may be missing something. --Bob G. From sellwein at hotmail.com Sat Apr 5 16:07:30 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 16:07:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons online Message-ID: I found the Bartleby site a few years ago, it is a great resource. I'm not sure I actually linked to it though - I've linked to so many sites. Deborah Russell http://groups.msn.com/ParallelsStudio http://www.worldhaikureview.org Yes, *Tender Buttons* is linked on my Poetry Library site, along with much more. http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/grahamd/FullText.html The above link will take you to the full-text books page. Many of the links are to Bartleby.com. I do love Bartleby--if you haven't visited, you'll find a lot of great material there, whole books by many poets. In addition to *Tender Buttons* for Stein, they have the entirety of *Three Lives* online. Also a lot of early work by Frost, Williams, Eliot, Lawrence, Sandburg, et al. My page also will get you to more contemporary books, many of which are found at Wendy Battin's marvelous CAPA. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 16:48:41 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 14:48:41 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] recipe/found poem References: <20030405150239.006977@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <3E8F4F38.91E340A6@earthlink.net> Shame on you. That's like Eliot without the footnotes. Horale! - Jim Wendy Battin wrote: > > I neglected to post the ingredients: > > Roasted? > > Ingredients:? > --------? > 1 Kg. (4-5 people) of Roasted? > 1 spoonful of capers? > 2 spoonfuls of raisins? > 1 big chopped onion? > 1 big paprika ( > 4-5 cloves of garlic? > 1/2 cup of vinegar or lemon extract? > 4 spoonfuls of oil? > 1/2 liter of water? > salt to the pleasure? > sugar to the pleasure? > pepper to the pleasure? > Optionally you can use olives and ham to put it in the meat? > and thyme or oregano to decorate the sauce.? > > ------------------------ > Wendy Battin > wjbat at conncoll.edu > > salt to the pleasure? > sugar to the pleasure? > pepper to the pleasure > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 5 17:10:24 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 16:10:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <1049575297.3e8f3f818fd63@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: Mike, I could be wrong, but I don't think I did turn Stein's recording into a laughingstock, actually. Students did. But it's true that when my students found it ridiculous, I didn't muster up much energy in promoting it, for I half agree with them. Maybe even three quarters agree, depending upon my mood. After that, yes, I was guilty of employing her humorously as a rhetorical gambit. But as I said, I just haven't met these students I keep hearing about, who love Stein's work. I happen to agree that Stein is gorgeous to listen to, and I can manage to turn off my left brain enough to enjoy her, in small doses. (I like Philip Glass, too, but my enjoyment does not always reach the end of his pieces. Same with Stein.) For various reasons I present a lot of material in class that I don't particularly love, and one point I was making is that not all of it bombs so reliably as Stein does. And I don't dislike Stein as much, say, as I loathe Cotton Mather. I really think it has something to do with Stein, not just my perhaps poor teaching. Most students just don't like her. By the same token, I can't always put across material that I *do* love. For example, today I'm reading a stack of response papers on Whitman's "Song of Myself," which I adore and present with my fullest enthusiasm. The hate-to-love ratio seems to be running at about 3 to 1 at the moment. And they dislike Whitman for all the time-honored reasons (see D.H. Lawrence), just as I think happens with Stein. It has a lot to do with the work itself, and the mystery of taste. The more interesting point, to me, is that some folks have evidently found ways of reaching students with Stein, as I never have. I still find that a bit baffling, but I've never really understood a lot of things in life. I don't know where others teach or how they manage such things, but when I start to talk about things like "lesbian coding" most of my students fall asleep or get outraged--and not simply because they're homophobes, though some are. It's because they honestly don't understand why writers would want to encode in the first place. Surely I'm not the only teacher to wrestle with this challenge. As to Stein's "Completed Portrait" as a "referential" work. Well, I can hear my students laughing now. (P.S. to close readers: please don't post to tell me how great Cotton Mather is; I've done my homework, trust me, and I'm old enough to know when I just don't like something.) ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > > Ah, David, but you see: you *have* given the game away here before your > students had a chance, turning The Completed Portrait into a laughing stock. > That poem is, I think, beautiful to listen to ("Miracles play. / Play fairly. > / > Play fairly well. / A well. / As well.") Beyond this its a very readbale piece > - start with the fact that Picasso famously tortured Stein while doing *her* > portrait and with the fact that her nickname for him was "Napolean" ("would he > like it?) and on to such gems as the vaginal (to combat Picasso's phallic) > "shutters shut and open so do queens" a sort of clipped iambic pentameter > which > is then literally deconstructed, the "shutter" become a punned "shudder" or an > echoed "stutter." You know, it's fun, audacious stuff, arguable *very* > referential. You're right, enthusiasm accounts for much of students "liking > it," as always. It's worth noting probably that a kind of lesbian coding, > Stein's own invented symbolic economy, informs much of Tender Buttons and that > unlocking that makes it make alot more sense - "Rub her coke" "the muncher > muncher munchers" etc. To have that along with the cubist interest in the > visual (Stein's domestic space - Objects, Rooms, Food) is to have quite a bit > to go on. > > -m. > > From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 16:59:31 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 16:59:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons online In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know how you feel. I'm linked to so many sites I feel like one of those sausages that's so close to the middle of a long chain o' links that it never sees either end. Hal "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." --Albert Einstein Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { I found the Bartleby site a few years ago, it is a great resource. I'm not { sure I actually linked to it though - I've linked to so many sites. { { Deborah Russell { { http://groups.msn.com/ParallelsStudio { http://www.worldhaikureview.org From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 17:03:47 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 17:03:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Forgive me, David, but somehow I don't think the thought of people laughing as they read her would have bothered Stein a lot. Hal "The canon is better than the pistola" --Joanne Kyger Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Mike, I could be wrong, but I don't think I did turn Stein's recording into { a laughingstock, actually. Students did. But it's true that when my { students found it ridiculous, I didn't muster up much energy in promoting { it, for I half agree with them. Maybe even three quarters agree, depending { upon my mood. { { After that, yes, I was guilty of employing her humorously as a rhetorical { gambit. But as I said, I just haven't met these students I keep hearing { about, who love Stein's work. I happen to agree that Stein is gorgeous to { listen to, and I can manage to turn off my left brain enough to enjoy her, { in small doses. (I like Philip Glass, too, but my enjoyment does not always { reach the end of his pieces. Same with Stein.) { { For various reasons I present a lot of material in class that I don't { particularly love, and one point I was making is that not all of it bombs so { reliably as Stein does. And I don't dislike Stein as much, say, as I loathe { Cotton Mather. I really think it has something to do with Stein, not just { my perhaps poor teaching. Most students just don't like her. { { By the same token, I can't always put across material that I *do* love. For { example, today I'm reading a stack of response papers on Whitman's "Song of { Myself," which I adore and present with my fullest enthusiasm. The { hate-to-love ratio seems to be running at about 3 to 1 at the moment. And { they dislike Whitman for all the time-honored reasons (see D.H. Lawrence), { just as I think happens with Stein. It has a lot to do with the work { itself, and the mystery of taste. { { The more interesting point, to me, is that some folks have evidently found { ways of reaching students with Stein, as I never have. I still find that a { bit baffling, but I've never really understood a lot of things in life. { { I don't know where others teach or how they manage such things, but when I { start to talk about things like "lesbian coding" most of my students fall { asleep or get outraged--and not simply because they're homophobes, though { some are. It's because they honestly don't understand why writers would { want to encode in the first place. Surely I'm not the only teacher to { wrestle with this challenge. { { As to Stein's "Completed Portrait" as a "referential" work. Well, I can { hear my students laughing now. { { (P.S. to close readers: please don't post to tell me how great Cotton { Mather is; I've done my homework, trust me, and I'm old enough to know when { I just don't like something.) { ==================================================== { David Graham { grahamd at ripon.edu { Home Page: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html { Poetry Library: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html { ==================================================== { { > { > Ah, David, but you see: you *have* given the game away here before your { > students had a chance, turning The Completed Portrait into a laughing stock. { > That poem is, I think, beautiful to listen to ("Miracles play. / Play fairly. { > / { > Play fairly well. / A well. / As well.") Beyond this its a very readbale piece { > - start with the fact that Picasso famously tortured Stein while doing *her* { > portrait and with the fact that her nickname for him was "Napolean" ("would he { > like it?) and on to such gems as the vaginal (to combat Picasso's phallic) { > "shutters shut and open so do queens" a sort of clipped iambic pentameter { > which { > is then literally deconstructed, the "shutter" become a punned "shudder" or an { > echoed "stutter." You know, it's fun, audacious stuff, arguable *very* { > referential. You're right, enthusiasm accounts for much of students "liking { > it," as always. It's worth noting probably that a kind of lesbian coding, { > Stein's own invented symbolic economy, informs much of Tender Buttons and that { > unlocking that makes it make alot more sense - "Rub her coke" "the muncher { > muncher munchers" etc. To have that along with the cubist interest in the { > visual (Stein's domestic space - Objects, Rooms, Food) is to have quite a bit { > to go on. { > { > -m. { > { > { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From Faustina1 at aol.com Sat Apr 5 17:27:20 2003 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 17:27:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <37.36bc4edb.2bc0b248@aol.com> I can't imagine persuading someone to like a poet's work, or why one would want to do this, or to be convinced--I did let someone catapult me into Eliot, though I must have wanted to go there. Janet From Faustina1 at aol.com Sat Apr 5 17:34:57 2003 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 17:34:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tender Buttons Message-ID: <178.18c0ec66.2bc0b411@aol.com> My students very rarely take a scunner to Gertie, though, as I mentioned, they don't like Wallace Stevens despite my most fervent attempts to put him across. They read in their little intros that he was a Republican insurance exec and decide he was a nasty prig, and there is little I can do about it, for all I work to separate poet from work and to involve them in something as wonderful as "Sunday Morning." But they like those buttons and go around for the rest of the week talking like that. Janet From lshinn at sas.upenn.edu Sat Apr 5 16:31:28 2003 From: lshinn at sas.upenn.edu (Leslie Shinn) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 17:31:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <008801c2fbb3$aa51cac0$c61afea9@j1c1k6> References: <3.0.6.32.20030405130134.00946530@neo.tamu.edu> <008801c2fbb3$aa51cac0$c61afea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: "Aesthetic knowledge" -- anyhow a strange phrase -- must surely also include "intuition." I think so, because I think literary criticism and aesthetic knowledge matter. It also matters because I am not yanked into the buttons and electrified, and would like to know why, since I may be missing something. --Bob G. Does any of this matter, if you are yanked into the poem by the hair and electrified by it? --Janet McCann From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 5 17:38:28 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 17:38:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <37.36bc4edb.2bc0b248@aol.com> Message-ID: Hmm, I agree, Janet. Never could see what "liking" had to do with it. When I was teaching, my classes went pretty well when I could get students to see or hear what was in a poet's work, whether or not they liked it. Hal { I can't imagine persuading someone to like a poet's work, or why one would { want to do this, or to be convinced--I did let someone catapult me into { Eliot, though I must have wanted to go there. { { Janet From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 5 18:00:51 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 17:00:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <178.18c0ec66.2bc0b411@aol.com> Message-ID: Hmmmmm. Your students find "Republican insurance exec" a turnoff? Most of mine would hold that up as a life goal, and many of them are halfway there. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > My students very rarely take a scunner to Gertie, though, as I mentioned, > they don't like Wallace Stevens despite my most fervent attempts to put him > across. They read in their little intros that he was a Republican insurance > exec and decide he was a nasty prig, and there is little I can do about it, > for all I work to separate poet from work and to involve them in something as > wonderful as "Sunday Morning." But they like those buttons and go around for > the rest of the week talking like that. Janet From Faustina1 at aol.com Sat Apr 5 18:32:14 2003 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 18:32:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tender Buttons Message-ID: Most of my students are far to the left, but these are students in advanced poetry writing classes, and the many A&M students who are happily headed for CEO-ships wouldn't be caught dead in them. Occasionally I get a corporate type in the beginning class who has managed to get in there to avoid tech writing, but he usually flees after the first week. Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 5 18:56:49 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 18:56:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: <37.36bc4edb.2bc0b248@aol.com> Message-ID: <002801c2fbcf$0859cc60$eec6fea9@j1c1k6> > I can't imagine persuading someone to like a poet's work, or why one would > want to do this, or to be convinced--I did let someone catapult me into > Eliot, though I must have wanted to go there. > > Janet Can you imagine wanting to persuade someone to like ANYthing? One of my life's best moments occurred when a friend who wanted to persuade me that E. E. Cummings was worth reading showed me his falling leaf poem, then explained it to me--and, yes, it needed to be explained to me. I was pushed past my instinctive distaste for painting that weren't strictly representational by a friend who liked impressionism and wanted me to share his liking for it. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 5 19:01:34 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 19:01:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: <3.0.6.32.20030405130134.00946530@neo.tamu.edu><008801c2fbb3$aa51cac0$c61afea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <003401c2fbcf$b160ac20$eec6fea9@j1c1k6> > "Aesthetic knowledge" -- anyhow a strange phrase -- must surely also > include "intuition." I meant knowledge of what a poem is doing aesthetically. It would not, for me, include intuition--however important intuition is for readerly appreciation. --Bob G. From Faustina1 at aol.com Sat Apr 5 19:06:18 2003 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 19:06:18 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <110.221f3578.2bc0c97a@aol.com> Sure, it's possible to open a poem for someone, if they want to go there. But I can't proselytize for poets, even Stevens--can present a Stevens poem to students, but only those who have an affinity for him anyway are going to do the mental work to get into it. What I often see in discussions is the assumption that you are supposed to like someone, or are not supposed to--that if only you had the right orientation or theoretical framework or whatever you would "get it." I don't think that. This does make my approach very different from my colleagues'--to what effect, I do not know. Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Sat Apr 5 19:09:25 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:09:25 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Tender Buttons References: <3E8F071F.8FEFD0F2@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <010301c2fbd0$c98940e0$5b15e589@devbox> On Saturday, April 05, 2003 7:41 AM, James Cervantes spake thusly: > David Graham wrote: >> >> I'm with Michael Snider on Stein's work--it's not something that I >> find very nourishing, certainly not in large doses. But the curious >> outrage that she can still provoke, even nearly a century later, >> certainly tells you something. What, I am not sure, but something. >> >> Joyce, Picasso, Stravinsky, et al. have been pretty thoroughly >> domesticated and integrated into highbrow culture, while Stein >> retains the ability to piss people off. > > Don't you think that says as much about readers as Stein? Or maybe it says something about the fact that so many in Academia keep pushing examples of Stein's genius on others, though so many still don't see it in much of her work in the same way they recognize the power and genius of Joyce. By virtue of some other good work, Stein's lesser efforts persist like a bad odor, while the work of other wholly inferior talents have thankfully faded away. *Tender Buttons*, despite the cute sexual entendre of the title, pisses me off a little bit in the same way I would be irritated if someone kept fobbing Bob G's little imitation off on me as a work of genius and inspiration. Then again, I feel this way about a lot of l=a=n=g=u=a=g=e poetry as well, which makes me want to pound on the person expounding to me and question God as to why I seem to be the only one noticing that the E=M=P=E=R=O=R has no C=L=O=T=H=E=S. c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Sat Apr 5 19:15:54 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:15:54 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] ad hominem References: <200304050323.h353N2ST003049@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <5.1.1.6.0.20030405112239.02ec9e80@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <012001c2fbd1$b1412b50$5b15e589@devbox> On Saturday, April 05, 2003 9:05 AM, Gabriel Gudding spake thusly: > I will keep posting, as I've cleared it with the list moderator, > anti-war urls and abstracts. I feel the war has a great deal to do > with poetry and impacts my poetry strongly and nearly every poet I > speak to. A *lot* of things have to do with poetry that don't need to be recycled to everyone on the list. Reposting and quoting verbatim existing news sources works within the vague problematic of poetry in the same way I would be if I decided to start posting synopses of environmental studies on air pollution (air has a great deal to do with poetry) and every news article I can find on human rights (they too have a great deal to do with the world and thus our poetry). But it is in the synthesis and presentation of something more than recycled news clippings that you could find a productive angle to bring war and poetry together. As it is, I fail to see how what you are doing has any real benefit. That is the much more difficult work that, as far as I can tell, remains undone. c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Sat Apr 5 19:26:53 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:26:53 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: <37.36bc4edb.2bc0b248@aol.com> <002801c2fbcf$0859cc60$eec6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <017201c2fbd3$3a10dc90$5b15e589@devbox> On Saturday, April 05, 2003 2:56 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: >> I can't imagine persuading someone to like a poet's work, or why one >> would want to do this, or to be convinced--I did let someone >> catapult me into Eliot, though I must have wanted to go there. >> >> Janet > > Can you imagine wanting to persuade someone to like ANYthing? One of > my life's best moments occurred when a friend who wanted to persuade > me that E. E. Cummings was worth reading showed me his falling leaf > poem, then explained it to me--and, yes, it needed to be explained to > me. > I was pushed past my instinctive distaste for painting that weren't > strictly representational by a friend who liked impressionism and > wanted me to share his liking for it. There is some hazy region between persuading someone to like something and teaching them what they need to know so they have a chance to like it themselves. I have been turned on to many great writers and musicians through the enthusiasm of others, whether because their contagious affection caused me to give something another chance or because they taught me what to look for and showed me what I was missing. I could never handle big band jazz until someone sat me down and set me straight about Ellington, Basie and others-- getting me started with some things to listen for and educating me. Some might say I was "persuaded." Persuaded is the word I would use for my long admiration of Cavafy that came only because Robert Pinsky told me I would like it at a time when I was too open to suggestion, and he had just entranced me with his own writing and a reading and a workshop session and I was thus primed for suggestion rather than education. c -- Chris Lott From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 5 19:31:23 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 19:31:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: <110.221f3578.2bc0c97a@aol.com> Message-ID: <004a01c2fbd3$dace0040$eec6fea9@j1c1k6> Sure, it's possible to open a poem for someone, if they want to go there. But I can't proselytize for poets, even Stevens--can present a Stevens poem to students, but only those who have an affinity for him anyway are going to do the mental work to get into it. My feeling is that there might be those who don't know they have an affinity for him whom you could get to like him (and therefore do the mental work required) if you showed them the things in the poem you liked. Not by "proselytizing" but simply by sharing an enthusiasm. Anyway, that is the premise of the chapter I wrote about Stevens in my one book on poetry. I'm a big fan of Stevens's but at first had Frost's opinion of his bric-a-brac. But I kept getting exposed to him, and suddenly really liked one of his poems, and it took me to his others. I would say I was subjected to indirect proselytization--schools' and anthologies' pushing Stevens at me--and had an affinity for him that finally came out. What I often see in discussions is the assumption that you are supposed to like someone, or are not supposed to--that if only you had the right orientation or theoretical framework or whatever you would "get it." I don't think that. This does make my approach very different from my colleagues'--to what effect, I do not know. Janet Attitude is important. "Here's what appeals to me about this poem," as opposed to "Here's why you should like this poem." I do think there is something "to get" in any poem, and that sometimes it is helpful to point it out. From experience, I know that most of the time that won't work--because appreciation of serious poetry requires certain aptitudes that most people do not seem to have. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lshinn at sas.upenn.edu Sat Apr 5 19:13:24 2003 From: lshinn at sas.upenn.edu (Leslie Shinn) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 20:13:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: Aesthetics are implements. The unconscious may be a tool; there are many tools. Intuition, instinct, may be a part of limning a poem's expression, as well as in drawing appreciation or understanding in readership. I do respond to Tender Buttons' energy. What I "get" from the poems is some thread sometimes -- always momentary, but enticing -- of what I perceive to have been their process, which I find sorta thrilling. I meant knowledge of what a poem is doing aesthetically. It would not, for me, include intuition--however important intuition is for readerly appreciation. --Bob G. > "Aesthetic knowledge" -- anyhow a strange phrase -- must surely also > include "intuition." From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 5 20:22:41 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 01:22:41 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] ad hominem Message-ID: <200304060112.h361CHST030628@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Gabriel Gudding: > I have heard that a few people, whose names I have on filter, have accused > me of ad hominem but I've reviewed my posts to see if this is true ...<< And with your record of fallacious arguments, disingenuous claims, and agenda- driven referrals to other sites, we're supposed to just take your word for it? LOL. Gabriel Gudding: > ...I will keep posting, as I've cleared it with the list moderator, anti-war > urls and abstracts. I feel the war has a great deal to do with poetry and > impacts my poetry strongly and nearly every poet I speak to.< This is typical of a whole class of posters on the internet: people who, on finding that their own words and their own arguments are regularly and civilly countered, even refuted, by others', resort first to name-calling and then to merely spamming the list with URLs and screeds by others in order not to have to take the time either to come up with civil and reasoned opinions of their own or to defend those opinions when challenged. From chris at chrislott.org Sat Apr 5 20:27:26 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 16:27:26 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: <110.221f3578.2bc0c97a@aol.com> <004a01c2fbd3$dace0040$eec6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <021f01c2fbdb$afb094b0$5b15e589@devbox> On Saturday, April 05, 2003 3:31 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > but only those who have an affinity for > him anyway are going to do the mental work to get into it. This seems like a meaningless statement to me. Or more precisely I would characterize it as true, but only for a very limited number of situations. People often won't have an affinity for something until they have discovered it through other means, and it doesn't demand an affinity to do the work to get to the point of appreciating something... it is often that very work that leads to the affinity. I, for instance, not only had no affinity for Wordsworth, I positively disliked him, until I had my eyes opened by a faculty member and friend who took the time to give me the tools I needed, almost despite myself, to develop a rapport with the work. Not knowing one has an affinity for something is perhaps possible, but I think it hardly describes the wide range of possible ways of coming to terms with a poet one ultimately finds he or she likes. c -- Chris Lott From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 5 20:36:38 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 01:36:38 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN Message-ID: <200304060126.h361QEST030934@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Well, what you're postulating here is that your particular solution > is both non-violent and just, though how to enforce the distribution > of the material within the country in the way you recommend without > employing some kind of compulsion or threat of compulsion seems vague > at best. Daniel Zimmerman: > ... I don't pretend to expertise in > logistics, but then again, neither does Bush--he proposes, and Congress > disposes (or, since Congress has pretty much disposed of itself by giving > him such extraordinary powers, the Defense Department disposes--followed by > the corporate conrtactors who will rebuild what the DoD destroys).<< This is simply abdication of the responsibility to propose constructively and in detail, giving as the excuse that the other guy didn't so why should you. The notion that you can have the idea and someone else can fill in all the details is easily exploded. I have an idea for a best-selling novel that can be a block-buster movie, Daniel -- all you have to do is write it based on my idea and we'll split the profits, k? It's a preposterous idea, and one very good reason not to vote for GW Bush or R Reagan is that very idea: that they are front men who do *not* know the details, but their assistants and advisors are experts! Daniel Zimmerman: > I think > that different agencies--the Red Cross and the Red Crescent working in > concert, along with various other international agencies--could figure out > how to implement such a policy. The fact that I don't have an answer > ready-made doesn't mean no one has. That is almost as preposterous as your previous suggestion! The Red Cross, the Red Crescent, and any other reputable aid agency would never let itself be used in such a politically-charged way as an arm of US or any other foreign policy! Imagine approaching the Red Cross and saying that you want to make sure that they are responsible for compelling (compelling!) people in other countries to use aid in ways that cannot free up money to buy war materiel or train troops -- how would they know? Whose army would they use to force the local authorities to distribute aid in the "right" way? You're trying to make the international aid agencies a world army of righteous justice, and it's not their job to be an army of any kind in the first place. From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 5 20:49:12 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 01:49:12 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Works by Others: Joseph Mazzini Message-ID: <200304060138.h361cmST031174@wiz.cath.vt.edu> In his brief introduction to the Leviathan, Hobbes describes the state as an organism analogous to a large person. He shows how each part of the state parallels the function of the parts of the human body. He notes that the first part of his project is to describe human nature, insofar as humans are the creators of the state. To this end, he advises that we look into ourselves to see the nature of humanity in general. Hobbes argues that, in the absence of social condition, every action we perform, no matter how charitable or benevolent, is done for reasons which are ultimately self-serving. For example, when I donate to charity, I am actually taking delight in demonstrating my powers. In its most extreme form, this view of human nature has since been termed psychological egoism. Hobbes believes that any account of human action, including morality, must be consistent with the fact that we are all self-serving. In this chapter. Hobbes speculates how selfish people would behave in a state of nature, prior to the formation of any government He begins noting that humans are essentially equal, both mentally and physically, insofar as even the weakest person has the strength to kill the strongest. Given our equal standing, Hobbes continues noting how we are situations in nature make us naturally prone to quarrel. There are three natural causes of quarrel among people: competition for limited supplies of material possessions, distrust of one another, and glory insofar as people remain hostile to preserve their powerful reputation. Given the natural causes of quarrel, Hobbes concludes that the natural condition of humans is a state of perpetual war of all against all, where no morality exists, and everyone lives in constant fear: In such condition, there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no culture of the earth, no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building, no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth, no account of time, no arts, no letters, no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life of people, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short. Hobbes continues offering proofs that the state of nature would be as brutal as he describes. We see signs of this in the mistrust we show of others in our daily lives. In countries which have yet to be civilized people treat are barbaric to each other. Finally, in the absence of international law, strong countries prey on the weakness of weak countries. Humans have three motivations for ending this state of war: the fear of death, the desire to have an adequate living, and the hope to attain this through one's labor. Nevertheless, until the state of war ends, each person has a right to everything, including another person's life. -- http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/h/hobbes.htm#The%20State%20of%20Nature > _An Essay On the Duties of Man Addressed to Workingmen_ > > Chapter V -- Duties Towards Your Country > > Your first duties - first as regards importance - are, as I have already > told you, towards Humanity. You are men before you are either citizens or > fathers. If you do not embrace the whole human family in your affection; if > you do not bear witness to your belief in the Unity of that family, > consequent upon the Unity of God, and in that fraternity among the peoples > which is destined to reduce that Unity to action; if, wheresoever a > fellow-creature suffers, or the dignity of human nature is violated by > falsehood or tyranny - you are not ready, if able, to aid the unhappy, and > do not feel called upon to combat, if able, for the redemption of the > betrayed and oppressed - you violate your law of life, you comprehend not > that Religion which will be the guide and blessing of the future. > But what can each of you, singly, do for the moral improvement and progress > of Humanity? You can from time to time give sterile utterance to your > belief; you may, on some rare occasions, perform some act of charity > towards a brother-man not belonging to your own land - no more. But charity > is not the watchword of the Faith of the Future. The watchword of the faith > of the future is Association and fraternal cooperation towards a common > aim; and this is far superior to all charity, as the edifice which all of > you should unite to raise would be superior to the humble hut each one of > you might build alone, or with the mere assistance of lending and borrowing > stone, mortar, and tools. > But, you tell me, you cannot attempt united action, distinct and divided as > you are in language, customs, tendencies, and capacity. The individual is > too insignificant, and Humanity too vast. The mariner of Brittany prays to > God as he puts to sea; "Help me, my God! my boat is so small and Thy ocean > so wide!" And this prayer is the true expression of the condition of each > one of you, until you find the means of infinitely multiplying your forces > and powers of action. > This means was provided for you by God when He gave you a country; when, > even as a wise overseer of labour distributes the various branches of > employment according to the different capacities of the workmen, he divided > Humanity into distinct groups or nuclei upon the face of the earth, thus > creating the germ of nationalities. Evil governments have disfigured the > Divine design. Nevertheless you may still trace it, distinctly marked out - > at least as far as Europe is concerned - by the course of the great rivers, > the direction of the higher mountains, and other geographical conditions. > They have disfigured it by their conquests, their greed, and their jealousy > even of the righteous power of others; disfigured it so far that, if we > except England and France, there is not perhaps a single country whose > present boundaries correspond to that design. > These governments did not, and do not, recognize any country save their own > families or dynasty, the egoism of caste. But the Divine design will > infallibly be realized; natural divisions and the spontaneous, innate > tendencies of the peoples will take the place of the arbitrary divisions, > sanctioned by evil governments. The map of Europe will be redrawn. The > countries of the peoples, defined by the vote of free men, will arise upon > the ruins of the countries of kings and privileged castes, and between > these countries harmony and fraternity will exist. And the common work of > Humanity, of general amelioration, and the gradual discovery and > application of its Law of life, being distributed according to local and > general capacities, will be wrought out in peaceful and progressive > development and advance. Then may each one of you, fortified by the power > and affection of many millions, all speaking the same language, gifted with > the same tendencies, and educated by the same historical tradition, hope > even by your own single efforts to be able to benefit all Humanity. > 0, my brothers, love your Country! Our country is our Home, a house God has > given us, placing therein a numerous family that loves us, and whom we > love; a family with whom we sympathize more readily and whom we understand > more quickly than we do others; and which, from its being centred round a > given spot, and from the homogeneous nature of its elements, is adapted to > a special branch of activity. Our Country is our common workshop, whence > the products of our activity are sent forth for the benefit of the whole > world; wherein the tools and implements of labour we can most usefully > employ are gathered together; nor may we reject them without disobeying the > plan of the Almighty, and diminishing our own strength. > In labouring for our own country on the right principle, we labour for > Humanity. Our country is the fulcrum of the lever we have to wield for the > common good. If we abandon the fulcrum, we run the risk of rendering > ourselves useless not only to Humanity but to our country itself. Before > men can associate with the nations of which Humanity is composed, they must > have a national existence. There is no true association except among > equals. It is only through our country that we can have a recognized > collective existence. Humanity is a vast army advancing to the conquest of > lands unknown, against enemies both powerful and astute. The peoples are > the different corps, the divisions of that army. Each of them has its post > assigned to it, and its special operation to execute; and the common > victory depends upon the exactitude with which those distinct operations > are fulfilled. Disturb not the order of battle. Forsake not the banner > given to you by God. Wheresoever you may be, in the centre of whatsoever > people circumstances may have placed you, be ever ready to combat for the > liberty of that people, should it be necessary, but combat in such wise > that the blood you shed may reflect glory, not on yourself alone, but on > your country. Say not I, but We. Let each man among you strive to incarnate > his country in himself. Let each man among you regard himself as a > guarantor, responsible for his fellow-countrymen, and learn so to govern > his actions as to cause his country to be loved and respected through him. > Your country is the sign of the Mission God has given you to fulfill > towards Humanity. The faculties and forces of all her sons should be > associated in the accomplishment of that mission. The true country is a > community of free men and equals, bound together in fraternal concord to > labour towards a common aim. You are bound to make it and to maintain it > such. The country is not an aggregation, but an association. There is, > therefore, no true country without a uniform right. There is no true > country where the uniformity of that right is violated by the existence of > caste privilege and inequality. Where the activity of a portion of the > powers and faculties of the individual is either cancelled or dormant; > where there is not a common Principle, recognized, accepted, and developed > by all, there is no true Nation, no People; but only a multitude, a > fortuitous agglomeration of men whom circumstances have called together and > whom circumstances may again divide. In the name of the love you bear your > country, you must peacefully but untiringly combat the existence of > privilege and inequality in the land that gave you life. > There is but one sole legitimate privilege, the privilege of Genius when it > reveals itself united with virtue. But this is a privilege given by God, > and when you acknowledge it, and follow its inspiration, you do so freely, > exercising your own reason and your own choice. Every privilege which > demands submission from you in virtue of power, inheritance, or any other > right than the Right common to all, is a usurpation and a tyranny which you > are bound to resist and destroy. > Be your country your Temple: God at the summit; a people of equals at the > base. > Accept no other formula, no other moral law, if you would not dishonour > alike your country and yourselves. Let all secondary laws be but the > gradual regulation of your existence by the progressive application of this > Supreme law. And in order that they may be such, it is necessary that all > of you should aid in framing them. Laws framed only by a single fraction of > the citizens, can never, in the very nature of things, be other than the > mere expression of the thoughts, aspirations, and desires of that fraction; > the representation, not of the country, but of a third or fourth part, of a > class or zone of the country. > The laws should be the expression of the universal aspiration, and promote > the universal good. They should be a pulsation of the heart of the nation. > The entire nation should, either directly or indirectly, legislate. > By yielding up this mission into the hands of a few, you substitute the > selfishness of one class for the Country, which is the union of all classes. > Country is not only a mere zone of territory. The true Country is the Idea > to which it gives birth; it is the Thought of love, the sense of communion > which unites in one all the sons of that territory. > So long as a single one amongst your brothers has no vote to represent him > in the development of the national life, so long as there is one left to > vegetate in ignorance where others are educated, so hong as a single man, > able and willing to work, languishes in poverty through want of work to do, > you have no country in the sense in which Country ought to exist - the > country of all and for all. > Education, labour, and the franchise, are the three main pillars of the > Nation; rest not until you have built them thoroughly up with your own > labour and exertions. > Be it yours to evolve the life of your country in loveliness and strength; > free from all servile fears or sceptical doubts; maintaining as its basis > the People; as its guide the principles of its Religious Faith, logically > and energetically applied; its strength, the united strength of all; its > aim, the fulfillment of the mission given to it by God. > And so long as you are ready to die for Humanity, the life of your country > will be immortal. > > From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 5 20:53:27 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 01:53:27 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <200304060143.h361h3ST031291@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Magee quoting William James: > ... Nonsense in grammatical form > sounds half-rational; sense with grammatical sequence upset sounds > nonsensical ...<< One imagines, then, that those who upset grammatical sequence are seeking to sound nonsensical. I get it, now. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Apr 5 21:01:40 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 20:01:40 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: T S Eliot Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030405110952.012fb488@mail.ilstu.edu> [maybe a little white male patriarchal poetry'd go down better]: HYSTERIA As she laughed I was aware of becoming involved in her laughter and being part of it, until her teeth were only accidental stars with a talent for squad-drill. I was drawn in by short gasps, inhaled at each momentary recovery, lost finally in the dark caverns of her throat, bruised by the ripple of unseen muscles. An elderly waiter with trembling hands was hurriedly spreading a pink and white checked cloth over the rusty green iron table, saying : 'If the lady and gentleman wish to take their tea in the garden, if the lady and gentleman wish to take their tea in the garden...' I decided that if the shaking of her breasts could be stopped, some of the fragments of the afternoon might be collected, and I concentrated my attention with careful subtlety to this end. (1917) From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 5 21:04:59 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 02:04:59 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <200304060154.h361sOST031510@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > > { What makes it more worth experiencing aesthetically than ANY bunch of > words, > > { for instance: > > > > > { TRY BLINKER, TREPAN, IS IT TELLS > > > > > { Eel to be but meadow > > { ceiling except round where miscue as table > > { elbows fading faint ink kneels her bruise up > > > > > { which I just threw together now. > > > > Try throwing words together like this more often, Bob. > > > > Hal > > It's too boringly easy to do, Hal. > --Bob G. Amen to that. From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 5 21:12:22 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 02:12:22 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <200304060201.h3621lST031659@wiz.cath.vt.edu> > > { > Try throwing words together like this more often, Bob. > { > > { > Hal > { > { It's too boringly easy to do, Hal. > { > { --Bob G. > > Then do it with handcuffs on, or standing on your head. > Or do it long enough to come to see its difficulties > and its pleasures. > Hal There are no difficulties to it, and the pleasures of it are similar to the pleasures of masturbation: notional, briefish, and short. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 5 23:09:33 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 22:09:33 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hogwash Message-ID: Hogwash The tongue that mothered such a metaphor Only the purest purist could despair of. Nobody ever called swill sweet but isn't Hogwash a daisy in a field of daisies? What beside sports and flowers could you find To praise better than the American language? Bruised by American foreign policy What shall I soothe me, what defend me with But a handful of clean unmistakable words-- Daisies, daisies, in a field of daisies? --Robert Francis. (1965) ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 5 23:13:59 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 22:13:59 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] City Afternoon Message-ID: City Afternoon A veil of haze protects this Long-ago afternoon forgotten by everybody In this photograph, most of them now Sucked screaming through old age and death. If one could seize America Or at least a fine forgetfulness That seeps into our outline Defining our volumes with a stain That is fleeting too But commemorates Because it does define, after all: Gray garlands, that threesome Waiting for the light to change, Air lifting the hair of one Upside down in the reflecting pool. JOHN ASHBERY ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From ccooley at overdomain.com Sat Apr 5 23:43:46 2003 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 20:43:46 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <200304060000.h36004ST029419@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > Chris Lott: > *Tender Buttons*, despite the cute sexual entendre of the title, pisses me > off a little bit in the same way I would be irritated if someone kept > fobbing Bob G's little imitation off on me as a work of genius and > inspiration. Then again, I feel this way about a lot of l=a=n=g=u=a=g=e > poetry as well, which makes me want to pound on the person > expounding to me > and question God as to why I seem to be the only one noticing that the > E=M=P=E=R=O=R has no C=L=O=T=H=E=S. She won't answer you because She's naked. From bardo at optonline.net Sat Apr 5 23:57:57 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 23:57:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <200304060126.h361QEST030934@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <013601c2fbf9$17c414b0$6d94c044@MULDER> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 8:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > > Well, what you're postulating here is that your particular solution > > is both non-violent and just, though how to enforce the distribution > > of the material within the country in the way you recommend without > > employing some kind of compulsion or threat of compulsion seems vague > > at best. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > ... I don't pretend to expertise in > > logistics, but then again, neither does Bush--he proposes, and Congress > > disposes (or, since Congress has pretty much disposed of itself by giving > > him such extraordinary powers, the Defense Department disposes--followed by > > the corporate conrtactors who will rebuild what the DoD destroys).<< > > This is simply abdication of the responsibility to propose constructively and > in detail, giving as the excuse that the other guy didn't so why should you. > The notion that you can have the idea and someone else can fill in all the > details is easily exploded. I have an idea for a best-selling novel that can > be a block-buster movie, Daniel -- all you have to do is write it based on my > idea and we'll split the profits, k? It's a preposterous idea, and one very > good reason not to vote for GW Bush or R Reagan is that very idea: that they > are front men who do *not* know the details, but their assistants and advisors > are experts! DZ: A few points of clarification: The "preposterous idea" of someone proposing an idea, someone else executing it, and the two sharing the profits did not seem preposterous to, for example, Art Buchwald, whose idea Eddie Murphy made into "Coming to America"--and a court found that Buchwald had a legitimate claim to some of the profit from that film. It did not seem preposterous to Thomas Edison, to Bill Gates, to Oppenheimer. It did not seem preposterous to Jack Kennedy when he proposed landing a man on the moon by the end of the decade to gather teams of experts to do so, rather than imperiously to hand down directives from on high concerning every jot and tittle of rocket science. Why do presidents have cabinets, councils of economic advisors, the joint chiefs of staff, white house counsels, and experts of all kinds to assist them in their decision making? You seem to think that only someone with all the answers can have any answers at all--or can even make so bold as to suggest ideas! You accuse me of abdicating responsibility because I do not provide a nuts and bolts blueprint for the implementation of a broad policy. Surely, though, to spell out such details without not only lots of input from experts in such matters but also without involving the basic process of "advise and consent" central to the operation of our government would constitute a real abdication of responsibility. Should I presume to dictatorial powers? Would you not then attack me for such arrogance? It seems to me that you've merely tried to bait me here, to draw me into making foolishly excessive proposals so you can attack me for doing so. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > I think > > that different agencies--the Red Cross and the Red Crescent working in > > concert, along with various other international agencies--could figure out > > how to implement such a policy. The fact that I don't have an answer > > ready-made doesn't mean no one has. > > That is almost as preposterous as your previous suggestion! The Red Cross, the > Red Crescent, and any other reputable aid agency would never let itself be > used in such a politically-charged way as an arm of US or any other foreign > policy! Imagine approaching the Red Cross and saying that you want to make > sure that they are responsible for compelling (compelling!) people in other > countries to use aid in ways that cannot free up money to buy war materiel or > train troops -- how would they know? Whose army would they use to force the > local authorities to distribute aid in the "right" way? > > You're trying to make the international aid agencies a world army of righteous > justice, and it's not their job to be an army of any kind in the first place. > DZ: Did I say anything about "compelling"? You use that term here as a straw man of your own invention which you appear to attribute to me in order to attack me for something I never said. I wrote about using diplomacy and persuasion, not compulsion, to gain the cooperation of agencies which already provide aid apart from politics to continue to do just that. I also suggested that diplomacy (and , no doubt, economic inducements) might persuade--not compel--the nations of the world to refuse to trade with Saddam's reprehensible regime and thus to weaken his regime without denying the Iraqi people food, water and medical care. The sword compels; the pen, which I recommended, persuades--if it can make a sufficiently strong argument. In the case of Iraq, Bush's "pen" (the accusation that Iraq possesses WMD and somehow cooperates with Al Qaeda) failed to convince because of lack of evidence; his resort to the sword merely testifies to his failure with the pen. He might have had more success by arguing that the international community should materially oppose Saddam's tyranny against his own people, though our past support for Saddam's regime (and other oppressive regimes that have suited us from time to time) might make that argument appear disingenuous. Still, such an approach would have far stronger evidence than the WMD and Al Qaeda arguments have had. In resorting to war, Bush has, as William Blake said long ago, "become what he beholds"-- a tyrant ("The iron hand crushed the tyrant's head / And became a tyrant in his stead"). If we continue this discussion--if we can do so without exceeding the purview of the list--let's try to do so without resorting to distortion of each other's views. If I have misunderstood you, please explain how--as I have tried to do here because I believe you have misunderstood me. Dan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Sun Apr 6 00:19:46 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 00:19:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <200304060143.h361h3ST031291@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304060143.h361h3ST031291@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <1049606386.3e8fb8f2d3390@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Quoting marcus at designerglass.com: > Magee quoting William James: > > ... Nonsense in grammatical form > > sounds half-rational; sense with grammatical sequence upset sounds > > nonsensical ...<< > > One imagines, then, that those who upset grammatical sequence are seeking to > > sound nonsensical. I get it, now. Marcus, I imagine, from experience, that you're just being smug. But on the off chance that you're actually interested, I'd recommend getting James's Principles of Psychology out of the library and having a look at the full section from which I quoted. James is suggesting that we experiment with the alledgedly nonsensical in order to see what might make room for itself as sensical. He's saying that there's no reason that we couldn't adopt a model of reading/speaking which would render all sorts of irregularities communicative. Stein holds him to that, and it's worth noting that James heavily annotated his copy of Stein's THREE LIVES. I'm always struck by the ease with which you dismiss hard-won opinions. You'll forgive me, I hope, if I choose to side with William James, one of the most dedicated, prolific and important thinkers of the last two hundred years, over Marcus Bales, dude on an email list. And as for your comments about masturbation ("brief, short")...I think you're doing it wrong! Tender Buttons again: "Suppose a man a realistic expression of resolute reliability suggests pleasing itself white all white and no head does that mean soap. It does not so... PEELED PENCIL, CHOKE. Rub her coke." -m. From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Sun Apr 6 00:24:00 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 00:24:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1049606640.3e8fb9f0d4b8c@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> David, yes, you're right I misreprented w/ "laughingstck," sorry. I certainly understand what you're up against in the classroom, we all are in one way or another w/ one text or another. The worst class I ever taught was a class on Stevens's "The Idea of Order at Key West." It was so damn bad, so much dead air and sweat, that I canceled the next class assignment and just taught it again in a new way (which involved comparing it w/ Frost's "The Woodpile." This worked and that was very gratifying. If at first you don't succeed etc. -m. Quoting David Graham : > Mike, I could be wrong, but I don't think I did turn Stein's recording into > a laughingstock, actually. Students did. But it's true that when my > students found it ridiculous, I didn't muster up much energy in promoting > it, for I half agree with them. Maybe even three quarters agree, depending > upon my mood. > > After that, yes, I was guilty of employing her humorously as a rhetorical > gambit. But as I said, I just haven't met these students I keep hearing > about, who love Stein's work. I happen to agree that Stein is gorgeous to > listen to, and I can manage to turn off my left brain enough to enjoy her, > in small doses. (I like Philip Glass, too, but my enjoyment does not always > reach the end of his pieces. Same with Stein.) > > For various reasons I present a lot of material in class that I don't > particularly love, and one point I was making is that not all of it bombs so > reliably as Stein does. And I don't dislike Stein as much, say, as I loathe > Cotton Mather. I really think it has something to do with Stein, not just > my perhaps poor teaching. Most students just don't like her. > > By the same token, I can't always put across material that I *do* love. For > example, today I'm reading a stack of response papers on Whitman's "Song of > Myself," which I adore and present with my fullest enthusiasm. The > hate-to-love ratio seems to be running at about 3 to 1 at the moment. And > they dislike Whitman for all the time-honored reasons (see D.H. Lawrence), > just as I think happens with Stein. It has a lot to do with the work > itself, and the mystery of taste. > > The more interesting point, to me, is that some folks have evidently found > ways of reaching students with Stein, as I never have. I still find that a > bit baffling, but I've never really understood a lot of things in life. > > I don't know where others teach or how they manage such things, but when I > start to talk about things like "lesbian coding" most of my students fall > asleep or get outraged--and not simply because they're homophobes, though > some are. It's because they honestly don't understand why writers would > want to encode in the first place. Surely I'm not the only teacher to > wrestle with this challenge. > > As to Stein's "Completed Portrait" as a "referential" work. Well, I can > hear my students laughing now. > > (P.S. to close readers: please don't post to tell me how great Cotton > Mather is; I've done my homework, trust me, and I'm old enough to know when > I just don't like something.) > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > > Ah, David, but you see: you *have* given the game away here before your > > students had a chance, turning The Completed Portrait into a laughing > stock. > > That poem is, I think, beautiful to listen to ("Miracles play. / Play > fairly. > > / > > Play fairly well. / A well. / As well.") Beyond this its a very readbale > piece > > - start with the fact that Picasso famously tortured Stein while doing > *her* > > portrait and with the fact that her nickname for him was "Napolean" ("would > he > > like it?) and on to such gems as the vaginal (to combat Picasso's phallic) > > "shutters shut and open so do queens" a sort of clipped iambic pentameter > > which > > is then literally deconstructed, the "shutter" become a punned "shudder" or > an > > echoed "stutter." You know, it's fun, audacious stuff, arguable *very* > > referential. You're right, enthusiasm accounts for much of students > "liking > > it," as always. It's worth noting probably that a kind of lesbian coding, > > Stein's own invented symbolic economy, informs much of Tender Buttons and > that > > unlocking that makes it make alot more sense - "Rub her coke" "the muncher > > muncher munchers" etc. To have that along with the cubist interest in the > > visual (Stein's domestic space - Objects, Rooms, Food) is to have quite a > bit > > to go on. > > > > -m. > > > > > From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sun Apr 6 01:04:56 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 01:04:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] CAPA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030406010456.027567@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> >My page also will get you to more contemporary books, many of which are >found at Wendy Battin's marvelous CAPA. Thanks for the plug, David. We're just about to graduate our terrific student webmaster and send him off to an MFA program. But we've managed to post some new/old books and will continue to do so. For those who don't know CAPA, you can find it at http://capa.conncoll.edu/ We make out-of-print poetry books available online. If you have an out-of-print book you'd like to include in the archive, let me know. It will be slow over the summer, since I have no help trained yet. Wendy ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu salt to the pleasure? sugar to the pleasure? pepper to the pleasure --from an unsigned recipe From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sun Apr 6 01:58:51 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 00:58:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] cia analysts decry white house "spinning" intelligence data -- and a poem Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030406004954.03be0f28@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.sunspot.net/bal-te.intelligence04apr04.story THE MOROCCANS WITH THE CARPETS The Moroccans with the carpets seem like saints but they're salesman. -- Patrizia Cavalli (Italian, b. 1947), translated by Kenneth Koch From JackTar at aol.com Sun Apr 6 05:09:29 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 05:09:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] cia analysts decry white house "spinning" intelligence data ... Message-ID: <1d4.6e53fe2.2bc148c9@aol.com> In a message dated 4/6/2003 3:02:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > http://www.sunspot.net/bal-te.intelligence04apr04.story > What happens when their findings clash with the assumptions behind U.S. policy? duh!, your grants dry up. and I thought everyone knew not to piss into the wind. Grants turn heads. > Some former intelligence officers and historians say... as i say, fuck em if they can't take a joke, vicki says.. fuck em if they can. duncan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 6 08:31:24 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 08:31:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] ad hominem References: <200304060112.h361CHST030628@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <003001c2fc38$70660ee0$de9afea9@j1c1k6> Marcus Bales: > This is typical of a whole class of posters on the internet: people who, on > finding that their own words and their own arguments are regularly and civilly > countered, even refuted, by others', resort first to name-calling Notice that Marcus, perfect gentleman that he is, here does not malign this "whole class of posters." He could have called its members jerks but instead he civilly compliments them as people who find their arguments countered and even refuted (instead of--and this IS possible--battered by unanswerably stupid, trivial sniping) and respond with name-calling . . . > and then to > merely spamming the list with URLs and screeds by others in order not to have > to take the time either to come up with civil and reasoned opinions of their > own or to defend those opinions when challenged. . . . and the above, which I haven't, that I know of, but certainly will now that I'm aware of it. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 6 08:41:00 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 08:41:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: <110.221f3578.2bc0c97a@aol.com> <004a01c2fbd3$dace0040$eec6fea9@j1c1k6> <021f01c2fbdb$afb094b0$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <003601c2fc39$c7b8aee0$de9afea9@j1c1k6> > On Saturday, April 05, 2003 3:31 PM, Bob Grumman > spake thusly: > > > but only those who have an affinity for > > him anyway are going to do the mental work to get into it. I think you got me out of context here, Chris. Or maybe I was sloppy again. I haven't been saving my posts. > This seems like a meaningless statement to me. Or more precisely I would > characterize it as true, but only for a very limited number of situations. > > People often won't have an affinity for something until they have discovered > it through other means, and it doesn't demand an affinity to do the work to > get to the point of appreciating something... it is often that very work > that leads to the affinity. I, for instance, not only had no affinity for > Wordsworth, I positively disliked him, until I had my eyes opened by a > faculty member and friend who took the time to give me the tools I needed, > almost despite myself, to develop a rapport with the work. > > Not knowing one has an affinity for something is perhaps possible, but I > think it hardly describes the wide range of possible ways of coming to terms > with a poet one ultimately finds he or she likes. Well, I think the whole thing is finding what in a poet matches your inherent affinities. I had an experience similar to yours with Wordsworth. I loved Keats, thought Wordsworth pompous and dull. It just took a class whose instructor basically said, hey, look at these! to change my mind. But I think I had an affinity for a certain kind of poetry but didn't know Wordsworth had passages where that affinity would apply (if that's the word). So, I guess I did know of my affinity; what I didn't know was that Wordsworth was where I could satisfy it. To get back to the hard work thing, I think that often what happens is that one finds something in a poety that one has an affinity for, and THEN, because of the affinity, does the hard work of finding it elsewhere in the poet. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 6 08:50:08 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 08:50:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons References: <200304060201.h3621lST031659@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <004601c2fc3b$0ff3c860$de9afea9@j1c1k6> > > { > Try throwing words together like this more often, Bob. > > { > > > { > Hal > > > > { It's too boringly easy to do, Hal. > > > > { --Bob G. > > > > Then do it with handcuffs on, or standing on your head. > > Or do it long enough to come to see its difficulties > > and its pleasures. > > Hal > > There are no difficulties to it, and the pleasures of it are similar to the > pleasures of masturbation: notional, briefish, and short. For me, the pleasures are more like those of a voyeuristic wander through a crowded beach with an only occasional good-looking woman in it. To compare it to masturbation is to compliment it. (Note, I'm talking about the way I made my poem, not about the way Stein made her buttons, which could well have been much more intelligent and worthwhile.) --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 6 08:52:08 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 08:52:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Tender Buttons References: Message-ID: <005501c2fc3b$57c82640$de9afea9@j1c1k6> > > Chris Lott: > > > *Tender Buttons*, despite the cute sexual entendre of the title, pisses me > > off a little bit in the same way I would be irritated if someone kept > > fobbing Bob G's little imitation off on me as a work of genius and > > inspiration. Then again, I feel this way about a lot of l=a=n=g=u=a=g=e > > poetry as well, which makes me want to pound on the person > > expounding to me > > and question God as to why I seem to be the only one noticing that the > > E=M=P=E=R=O=R has no C=L=O=T=H=E=S. Thousands are, and they're all using the same cliche you are, Chris. Not that they and you may not be right. --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Apr 6 11:06:10 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 11:06:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Centcom Briefing Sonnet #3" Message-ID: Centcom Briefing Sonnet #3 Ground truthing by Centcom has now suggested that both the Tigris River and Euphrates River basins can be rendered suitable Chinook salmon spawning habitats once sediment sizes larger than fines can no longer adversely affect sac fry emergence. Still, we continue to see brutal acts by the regime and the forces loyal to it. One example comes from an outpost in front of 1st Marine Expeditionary Force a day ago. And the story goes like this. During the daylight hours, two vehicles approaching a psychological checkpoint were taken under fire when they failed to stop. At the same time, our maritime guys continuing their work of keeping open the waterways found some mines in the shallow waters of Khor Abdullah as they continued expanding the channel way. Those mines have been destroyed, making the salmon stocking project a definite go. The maritime component continues to search any vessels remaining to ensure that there are no threats. Dangerous work, but important work, and it's necessary to ensure that anything that's in the ports is safe. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, thank you. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sun Apr 6 13:59:48 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 12:59:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] why i post war links to a poetry list Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030406120318.011a2be0@mail.ilstu.edu> irish poet mairead byrne reminded or told me, i forget which, some time ago how cognitive linguists george lakoff and mark johnson've noticed that the metaphor argument=war subtends and has underscored the very stuff of discourse since discourse was discourse and i have to say it's true of this list especially. there seems to be more sniping and snipping, more contention and invective, ad hominem and attack passing as "debate" on this list than on any other list i subscribe to -- some of which is directed at me for posting anti-war links, so i wanted to address briefly why it seems especially appropriate to me to post war links to a poetry list poetry, there has long been something inherently combative about it, if not in the poetry itself, than in its paratexts, its apologias and reviews -- and its listserves and between its schools. this arguably has something to do with what lakoff and johnson take as that bedrock metaphor but because both poetry's mode and subject matter have circled arguably more around war than around love (or air) and certainly its mode and matter subtend air less than they support warfare and the very idea and embodiment of combat, it seems more than appropriate, indeed pretty fitting, to post discussions of war to a poetry list. we have seen many poems posted about war, we have seen it touched on as subject matter via the form of poetry and the form of journalism and the form of epistles [we do not after all write to one another about poetry with poetry] -- and indeed much of the discussion here on this list seems to take the shape of warfare anyway, espeically as regards the high volume of low grade ad hominem here historically speaking so much of poetry has taken both its mode and subject matter as warfare: much of poetry has long been about contest, argument, war, insult, shaming. poetry as "face off," as sparring, skirmish, metrical furor, often male-on-male conflict, verbal sport, written combat, careful shouting, goes way back--all the way back in Indo-European literature to the Vedic texts. [and this from an essay forthcoming] Some of western literature?s most energetic moments are contained within the genre sub-class of invective, face-off and slamming: Gaius Vallerius Catullus, Martial, greats bits of Julius Caesar, Romeo and Juliet, and Much Ado About Nothing, ?The Battle of Maldon,? where Saxon and Viking insult each other across the Blackwater river, the middle English poem, ?The Owl and the Nightingale,? the flyting verses of the great Skalds of Old Norse, such as those in Egil?s Saga and Droplaugarsona Saga, as well as those within the Scots tradition, particularly the ?Flyting of Dunbar and Kennedy? and the ?Flyting of Montgomerie and Polmart,? the insult poems of the Irish tradition (as drawn from An Duanaire 1600-1900: Poems of the Dispossessed, eds. ? Tuama and Kinsella, Dolmen Press, 1994), and the many many misogynist verses of the 17th and 18th Centuries (e.g., E. Alsop?s 1653 ?A Briefe Anatomie of Women: Being an Invective Against, and Apologie for the Bad and Goode of that Sexe,? John Webster?s ?An Execration against Whores,? or any number by Dean Swift.) In recent centuries, look toward the insult verse of Henry David Thoreau, W. E. B. Du Bois, Ezra Pound, Langston Hughes (?Ask Your Mama?), Anthony Hecht, Barton Sutter, Ray Mizer, Hilaire Belloc, Alan Dugan, Sylvia Plath (?Daddy?), Robert Greacen, Clarence Williams, Amiri Baraka, Bernadette Mayer?s insult poem to Fred Jordan, Wallace Stevens? ?Invective Against Swans? (!), Ren? Depestre?s ?[And seven times I strike you on the head ] that said, it would be nice to note that the genre of epistles -- which this list partakes in -- has had, contrary to poetry, its subject matter circle more around love than war -- so though we address the subject matter of war, wouldn't it be nice, as befits the mode of epistle, to do it in a civil manner? gabe ben marcus wrote: <> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 6 15:07:32 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 12:07:32 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] "A Villanelle Returns From War" Message-ID: <3E907AF3.83DD101E@earthlink.net> A Villanelle Returns From War You have to make sense now. Planes are in the air. You have to speak up before planes. You've bought all there will be to buy. Say something plain, make bye-bye. Tell everyone you need this and that. What? No flower in the kit? In the kitchen, panes warm up, whistle. See why there is no steam: It's all fire and sand. It's pain less flour, salt, and petals. Yell, whistle, say some lower the living, raise the dead, craft the air. Oh, and bring people, take people. Ports are drawers of the sea, tables of land. Sit down, be sensible, say something before you take off again. - Jim 6th Annual Northern Arizona Book Festival, April 11 - 13 http://www.flagstaffcentral.com/bookfest/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Apr 6 16:28:52 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:28:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <17f.192b53b1.2bc1e804@cs.com> In a message dated 4/5/2003 2:31:37 PM Central Standard Time, antrobin at clipper.net writes: > Gwynn writes: "I always thought it was a Tex-Mex version of raw fish." > > Nah, that's Ceviche. Tasty stuff, that is. > > T. > Yeah, I guess if the susie is asado it ain't susie anymore. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Apr 6 16:31:25 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:31:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] recipe/found poem Message-ID: <46.376a8735.2bc1e89d@cs.com> In a message dated 4/5/2003 3:06:54 PM Central Standard Time, wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: > > I neglected to post the ingredients: > > Roasted > > Ingredients: > -------- > 1 Kg. (4-5 people) of Roasted That isn't much of a yield from 4-5 roasted people. Is this kind of like jerky? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Apr 6 16:46:56 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:46:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Perspective on Poets Against the War Message-ID: <24.3bb1dea8.2bc1ec40@cs.com> I don't post this to prove or disprove anyone's comments on Poets Against the War, but I did think it was very interesting. WAITING AT THE FRONT by JEFFREY GOLDBERG The mood among the Kurds is one of anticipation?and fear. The New Yorker Issue of 2003-04-07 Posted 2003-03-31 It is virtually impossible to find anyone in Kurdistan who is opposed to the war against Saddam's regime. People on street corners ask for American flags or photographs of George Bush; the appreciation of the United States extends to the intellectual class. Sherko Bekas, who was described to me as Kurdistan's unofficial poet laureate, was particularly upset by the well-publicized efforts of American poets to stop the war. "Saddam is the god of war," Bekas said, when I saw him in his office at a publishing firm in Sulaimaniya. "He is the killer of poetry." He went on, "I say to these poets that if they lived for two weeks under Saddam's rule they would write verse in reverse. They would write poems asking Bush to attack Saddam sooner." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Apr 6 17:08:23 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 17:08:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Perspective on Poets Against the War In-Reply-To: <24.3bb1dea8.2bc1ec40@cs.com> Message-ID: Your disavowal has been noted, yet Bekas ain't had *his* so-called democracy shanghaied by Bush and a bunch of his cronies. We don't need a bunch of Kurdish poets helping Bush on to his second term. Of course, this message doesn't prove or disprove anyone's comments either. Hal ?Quien es m?s macho--Saddam Hussein o George W. Bush? Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard I don't post this to prove or disprove anyone's comments on Poets Against the War, but I did think it was very interesting. WAITING AT THE FRONT by JEFFREY GOLDBERG The mood among the Kurds is one of anticipation?and fear. The New Yorker Issue of 2003-04-07 Posted 2003-03-31 It is virtually impossible to find anyone in Kurdistan who is opposed to the war against Saddam's regime. People on street corners ask for American flags or photographs of George Bush; the appreciation of the United States extends to the intellectual class. Sherko Bekas, who was described to me as Kurdistan's unofficial poet laureate, was particularly upset by the well-publicized efforts of American poets to stop the war. "Saddam is the god of war," Bekas said, when I saw him in his office at a publishing firm in Sulaimaniya. "He is the killer of poetry." He went on, "I say to these poets that if they lived for two weeks under Saddam's rule they would write verse in reverse. They would write poems asking Bush to attack Saddam sooner." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sun Apr 6 17:15:47 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 17:15:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] recipe/found poem In-Reply-To: <46.376a8735.2bc1e89d@cs.com> Message-ID: <20030406171547.007005@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> >> 1 Kg. (4-5 people) of Roasted > >That isn't much of a yield from 4-5 roasted people. Is this kind of like >jerky? Or what's packaged in the deli section as "Variety Meats?" Wholly mysterious, the ways of the Web. yrs in vegetarian puzzlement, Wendy ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu salt to the pleasure? sugar to the pleasure? pepper to the pleasure --from an unsigned recipe From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Apr 6 18:11:54 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:11:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Perspective on Poets Against the War Message-ID: <1a5.11f831d8.2bc2002a@cs.com> A poem by Sherko Bekas. Together One evening a blind A deaf and a mute Were sitting together for some time On a bench in a garden. They were lively, smart and smiling. The blind saw the world With the eyes of the deaf.The deaf heard With the ears of the mute And the mute understood from the movements Of the lips and faces of both. And all three Simultaneously inhaled the scent of the flowers -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Sun Apr 6 18:17:28 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 14:17:28 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Broadsides Message-ID: <00aa01c2fc8a$506c81d0$5b15e589@devbox> Anyone have pointers to presses/magazines/etc publishing interesting broadsides? I'm not particularly interested in the overpriced collectibles, more interested in small presses and good poets... c -- Chris Lott From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sun Apr 6 18:18:37 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:18:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Perspective on Poets Against the War In-Reply-To: <24.3bb1dea8.2bc1ec40@cs.com> Message-ID: <20030406181837.017283@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Sam, I don't blame anyone living under a brutal regime for wanting it ended by any means necessary. That doesn't mean that those who had the power to choose the means couldn't have chosen better. Wendy wrote: >I don't post this to prove or disprove anyone's comments on Poets Against the >War, but I did think it was very interesting. > > >WAITING AT THE FRONT >by JEFFREY GOLDBERG >The mood among the Kurds is one of anticipation--and fear. >The New Yorker >Issue of 2003-04-07 >Posted 2003-03-31 > > >It is virtually impossible to find anyone in Kurdistan who is opposed to the >war against Saddam's regime. People on street corners ask for American flags >or photographs of George Bush; the appreciation of the United States extends >to the intellectual class. Sherko Bekas, who was described to me as >Kurdistan's unofficial poet laureate, was particularly upset by the >well-publicized efforts of American poets to stop the war. "Saddam is the god >of war," Bekas said, when I saw him in his office at a publishing firm in >Sulaimaniya. "He is the killer of poetry." He went on, "I say to these poets >that if they lived for two weeks under Saddam's rule they would write verse >in reverse. They would write poems asking Bush to attack Saddam sooner." > > > ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu salt to the pleasure? sugar to the pleasure? pepper to the pleasure --from an unsigned recipe From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 6 20:03:56 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 17:03:56 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] [Fwd: Action Alert: FCC wants further consolidation of media ownership--major threat to democracy] Message-ID: <3E90C06C.FCB726A1@earthlink.net> > > Time is short and the FCC intends to vote to remove the last barriers to > total media consolidation in Jun 2003. It will hold no further public > hearings on the issue--although the two lone Dems on the commission are > holding them around the country (more below). > > WHAT THIS MEANS: there will be no limits to the number of media outlets any > one company can own in any one market or across the country. This has a > terribly chilling effect on the free flow of ideas, as we've recently seen > with Clear Channel's pro war rallies and the reaction to the Dixie Chicks > remarks. Also, the goals of editors and publishers will not be to inform the > public, but to make shareholders happy. The media giants will finish > gobbling up all radio, TV, and newspapers that are left. Read more on why > ownership matters: > http://journalism.org/resources/research/reports/ownership/default.asp > > WHAT YOU CAN DO:You can file public comments with the FCC at > http://www.fcc.gov/ownership/ > > TELL YOUR FRIENDS: There will be a public hearing in Phoenix, Arizona on > Monday, April 7, 2003 from 1 - 4:30 p.m. in the Arizona State University, > KAET/Channel 8 studio. Several other hearings are in the offing, including > one in Vermont on April 14, San Francisco on April 26, and meetings in Los > Angeles and in Upstate New York, with dates to be determined. Check the FCC > Web site for more information. > > For more background, you can read about the issue at > http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/bigmedia.html > From mandolin at mac.com Sun Apr 6 21:35:36 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 21:35:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <007a01c2f9d4$c48d6920$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3B8D85EA-6899-11D7-8626-000393C29586@mac.com> On Thursday, April 3, 2003, at 06:32 AM, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > ? > DZ: If we had taken the approach I suggested above immediately after > (preferably rather than) the first Gulf War, convincing a large > majority of nations to acknowledge Saddam's tyrannical nature and to > refuse to trade with him, yet providing sufficient food and medicine > to minimize the suffering of the Iraqi people, we could have?drained > his regime of its power and whatever legitimacy it may have pretended > to possess. That is exactly what was done after the first Gulf war--sanctions, inspections, the food for oil program--and when Hussein used the limited trade allowed for weapons and palaces rather than food and medicine, the sanctions regime was blamed for causing suffering and needless death of Iraqi children. Guess who helped him spread that lie? The French and the Russians, who had and have significant business interests there. But I do believe a less arrogant and inept president. after 9/11, might still have been able to get the Security Council to stand by its words in Iraq so that we might not have had to fight, or at least not fight alone. And no, I don't believe Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. From JforJames at aol.com Sun Apr 6 22:03:09 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 22:03:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Tender Buttons Message-ID: <154.1df84848.2bc2365d@aol.com> In a message dated 4/5/03 7:32:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Faustina1 at aol.com writes: > Occasionally I get a corporate > type in the beginning class who has managed to get in there to avoid tech > writing, but he usually flees after the first week. Janet This is how I got into poetry (avoiding Op Research)...& by not fleeing. Finnegan From bardo at optonline.net Sun Apr 6 22:22:53 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 22:22:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <3B8D85EA-6899-11D7-8626-000393C29586@mac.com> Message-ID: <000f01c2fcac$985d48e0$6d94c044@MULDER> Hi, Michael. I agree that we planned and tried to enforce sanctions and at the same time provide aid to the Iraqi people, but we did not get enough support from enough nations to keep Iraq's borders from becoming porous. As long as some people and countries can put quick profits above long-term values without penalty, the conduct of such a policy will require more aggressive diplomacy and economic sanctions more costly than the profits they can gain by trading with such regimes. Perhaps if we paid our UN dues, we might have more credibility with that organization, on which we need to rely for such sanctions to work. It increasingly seems, though, that we did contain the regime and did deny it the ability to make WMD, so Bush's claims to the contrary become more bogus with each passing day--at least until he manages to smuggle in some biological or chemical agents and "discover" them to save himself from looking like the complete idiot most of the world rightly considers him. Bush's Evangelical jihad may prove far more dangerous to America than Saddam Hussein. The damage to our international relations will last long after his administration, and it will require extraordinary efforts on the part of future administrations to reestablish our credibility--not to mention our own extraordinary tax expenditures year after year forever to pay for the increase in the national debt which (like his father and Reagan) he continues to run up, evidently in the apocalyptic belief that "there's no tomorrow." Reagan and Bush, Sr. quadrupled the national debt, and I figure (check the numbers, please!) that each of us will have to pay about a week's salary every year just to cover the interest on the increase those two morons engineered on behalf of their billionaire pals. Some people claim that they bought us the demise of the Soviet Union, and thus "peace." Right: look around the world at the results of that investment, and it seems about as effective as the "voodoo economics" on the home front of that period (which Dubya seeks to reinstate via tax cuts for the fat cats). My students--mostly 18-20 year olds--have absolutely no memory of the 80s, no interest in history, and they don't vote, so the prospects for stopping the jive juggernaut seem pretty dim. Suggestions? Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Snider" To: Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > > On Thursday, April 3, 2003, at 06:32 AM, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > > > > > DZ: If we had taken the approach I suggested above immediately after > > (preferably rather than) the first Gulf War, convincing a large > > majority of nations to acknowledge Saddam's tyrannical nature and to > > refuse to trade with him, yet providing sufficient food and medicine > > to minimize the suffering of the Iraqi people, we could have drained > > his regime of its power and whatever legitimacy it may have pretended > > to possess. > > That is exactly what was done after the first Gulf war--sanctions, > inspections, the food for oil program--and when Hussein used the > limited trade allowed for weapons and palaces rather than food and > medicine, the sanctions regime was blamed for causing suffering and > needless death of Iraqi children. Guess who helped him spread that > lie? The French and the Russians, who had and have significant > business interests there. > > But I do believe a less arrogant and inept president. after 9/11, might > still have been able to get the Security Council to stand by its words > in Iraq so that we might not have had to fight, or at least not fight > alone. > > And no, I don't believe Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Apr 6 22:30:22 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 21:30:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] War by other means Message-ID: If you're ready for some literary strife as opposed to the kind with cruise missiles, you might want to check out the latest *New Criterion*. Interesting essay by David Yezzi on the difficulties inherent in writing political poetry-- http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/apr03/yezzi.htm Also, in the Letters section, an exchange between B.H. Fairchild and William Logan. As you may recall, Logan wiped the floor with Fairchild's recent book an isssue or three back. Here's the Letters column: http://www.newcriterion.com/constant/letters.htm And here's the original review of Fairchild (among others): http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/dec02/logan.htm ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sun Apr 6 23:16:22 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 22:16:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] iraq by duh numbers Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030406221548.011a2ed8@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.liberalslant.com/jt040203.htm _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sun Apr 6 23:44:16 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 23:44:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] War by other means In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030406234416.020875@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> David Graham wrote: >And here's the original review of Fairchild (among others): > >http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/dec02/logan.htm Well, that's telling: Logan: "They're "simple," "lyrical," "honest" --their graces come with little scare quotes attached, not because Li-Young Lee is ironic but because it's so difficult to believe such sweetness isn't ironic. A willed na?vet? may be no worse than real na?vet?, yet innocence isn't always better than experience. The Babes in the Wood were long ago eaten by bears." I'm not especially a fan of Li-Young Lee's work, but if Logan can't tell the difference between naivete and the discipline of a tradition, he's going to lose his Conservative Party card. Are we supposed to believe that only the bitter taste is true, and that salt and sweet are lies? Why would you even try to save a world like that? Wendy ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu salt to the pleasure? sugar to the pleasure? pepper to the pleasure --from an unsigned recipe From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Mon Apr 7 01:51:17 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 00:51:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] US F-15s bomb US tank, including reporter Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030407004955.0131a778@mail.ilstu.edu> http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2921807.stm or http://tinyurl.com/8x6g _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Mon Apr 7 02:03:09 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 01:03:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] military surgeon says casualties sanitized in media Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030407005624.01322b68@mail.ilstu.edu> AREA SURGEON AIDS TROOPS By Lisa Marshall Daily Camera April 5, 2003 http://www2.dailycamera.com/bdc/county_news/article/0,1713,BDC_2423_1866804,00.html or http://tinyurl.com/8x6a Friday morning: 57 dead; 16 missing; 7 captured. The daily White House press briefings and fuzzy real-time TV reports fall far short of conveying the brutality of war, says Boulder neurosurgeon Gene Bolles. Bolles spent Thursday hunched over an operating table at Germany's Landstuhl Regional Medical Center, repairing the broken back of Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch, who was rescued from an Iraqi hospital this week. The 19-year-old soldier will require aggressive rehabilitation, Bolles said, but is expected to recover well < one success story in a war full of tragedy. "It really is disgustingly sanitized on television," said Bolles, who has spent the last 16 months as chief of neurosurgery at Landstuhl, the destination for the war's most wounded soldiers. As of Friday, 281 patients had been brought to Landstuhl since Operation Iraqi Freedom started, and plane-loads are arriving regularly. "We have had a number of really horrific injuries now from the war. They have lost arms, legs, hands, they have been burned, they have had significant brain injuries and peripheral nerve damage. These are young kids that are going to be, in some regards, changed for life. I don't feel that people realize that." _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 7 06:17:42 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 06:17:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <3B8D85EA-6899-11D7-8626-000393C29586@mac.com> Message-ID: <005f01c2fcee$f1d24320$bd13fea9@j1c1k6> > And no, I don't believe Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. I disagree. All the nations not at the time zealously persecuting terrorists, whether those who actually carried out the Trade Center destruction or others, or who failed to condemn homicidal martyrdom behaviour, or who provided material or moral support or training for potential terrorists, or who expressed a desire that the US be destroyed were complicit with the latter. --Bob G. From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon Apr 7 07:21:00 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 07:21:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000001c2fcf7$c8dacf60$bef3f343@Dell> Creeley's Yesterdays Robert Duncan & 3 war poems of WW2 Defense Planning Guidance: Why Iraq matters Expectations: George Stanley's "The Wasteland (A Translation)" In memory of Ric Caddell Is critical coherence a nefarious plot? You are what you blog Peter O'Leary on Ronald Johnson's Radi Os The Blank Generation: Poetry, politics & the bombing of Baghdad The Berkeley Poetry Conference of 1965 Jack Spicer on Poetry & Politics http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 7 09:29:33 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 09:29:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <013601c2fbf9$17c414b0$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3E9144FD.17587.39647D@localhost> Daniel Zimmerman: > The "preposterous idea" of someone proposing an idea, someone else executing > it, and the two sharing the profits did not seem preposterous to, for > example, Art Buchwald, whose idea Eddie Murphy made into "Coming to > America"--and a court found that Buchwald had a legitimate claim to some of > the profit from that film.<< The exception proves the rule. Try to get a deal for yourself where you have the idea and someone else writes the novel or makes the movie. Or if you're really serious, why not set up in business to write the novels and make the movies and share the profits with people who have ideas? Do you search out people who have ideas for poems or essays so that you can exeucte them? Are you always on the lookout, do you think that most creative folks are always on the lookout, for an idea for them to execute? Do we see poem and novel and movie titles proliferating with "Idea by Joe Blow, Novel by Michael Crichton"? Daniel Zimmerman: > ... It did not seem preposterous to Jack Kennedy > when he proposed landing a man on the moon by the end of the decade to > gather teams of experts to do so, rather than imperiously to hand down > directives from on high concerning every jot and tittle of rocket science.<< Good lord. This is entirely different. We're talking about whether YOU have anything to offer in the way of substantive constructive notions, and your reply is to make the Red Cross the international army and government, and your defense of the criticism that the Red Cross neither wants to nor is capable of being the international army and government is that Jack Kennedy had an idea and NASA built the program? Are you proposing then, too, that the US fund the Red Cross just as the US funded NASA? And if so, how in your mind does that not make the Red Cross an arm of the US government? How does that make whatever the Red Cross does something other than what the US Army is doing now? You seem to be embracing ideas that have no merit whatever in hopes that sheer idealism will shine in my eyes and blind me to the obvious pitfalls. Daniel Zimmerman: > Why do presidents have cabinets, councils of economic advisors, the joint > chiefs of staff, white house counsels, and experts of all kinds to assist > them in their decision making? You seem to think that only someone with all > the answers can have any answers at all--or can even make so bold as to > suggest ideas!< Not in the least -- I'm suggesting that someone with no ideas and nothing to offer beyond an engaging manner and a famous name ought not be put in charge in hopes that he'll be able to pick the appropriate advisors. And, of course, if the "appropriate advisors" have picked HIM to be the frontman for their agenda, well, that's pretty sleazy, don't you think? THEY won't run on their ideas -- they want a guy with an engaging manner and a famous name to frong for them so they don't have to run on their ideas. Daniel Zimmerman: > ...You accuse me of abdicating responsibility because I do not provide a nuts > and bolts blueprint for the implementation of a broad policy. ...<< I point out that the notions you do offer are so completely and obviously unworkable that if you can't offer better notions than those that you ought to do some more homework. Your notion that "international aid agencies" might compel governments to do good is nonsense; and your notion that those agencies would be willing to represent themselves as independent while actually implementing US foreign policy is nonsense on stilts. Daniel Zimmerman: > Did I say anything about "compelling"? You use that term here as a straw > man of your own invention which you appear to attribute to me in order to > attack me for something I never said. I wrote about using diplomacy and > persuasion, not compulsion, to gain the cooperation of agencies which > already provide aid apart from politics to continue to do just that.<< You're offering the Red Cross as the new internagional government and you think you're not talking about compulsion? You think that diplomacy and trade has nothing to do with compulsion? You think that without a system of compulsion persuasion has any force? You are implicitly postulating a way to compel regimes to do something other than pursue their own short-term selfish goals if you're really trying to offer a solution to the problem rather than just ineffectual hand-waving. Who do you think is going to enforce the agreements that are negotiated through diplomacy, Daniel? Daniel Zimmerman: > The sword compels; the pen, which I recommended, persuades--if it can make a > sufficiently strong argument. In the case of Iraq, Bush's "pen" (the > accusation that Iraq possesses WMD and somehow cooperates with Al Qaeda) > failed to convince because of lack of evidence; his resort to the sword > merely testifies to his failure with the pen.<< Just so -- that's exactly what it is a testimony to. And that's exactly why your notion that diplomacy with never an admission that the pen has failed is doomed itself to failure. So long as you're willing endlessly to talk and appease the dictatorial regimes will be willing endlessly to bully and seize. Is there no point where you draw the line and say that physical force, compulsion, has to be resorted to BECAUSE the pen has failed? Daniel Zimmerman: > ... In resorting to war, Bush has, as William Blake said > long ago, "become what he beholds"-- a tyrant ("The iron hand crushed the > tyrant's head / And became a tyrant in his stead").<< There are also examples (Cincinnatus, Washington) of people who are willing to fight and then go back to their farms. It is, too true, far more likely to end up Blake's way, but it is not necessary. I'm no supporter of the Bush League's ineptitude at getting us into this war. I agree that there were lots of steps to take before this one. I even can scarcely believe that another Bush was so politically inept as to fight another war in the middle of another term, so that just as the quagmire starts to harden around its feet after the war is over and the occupation has begun, he has to run for re-election. But that's his own bad judgment as I see it. But I'd like to ask again whether you see the process as one that is ultimately grounded in physical compulsion, or as one that is grounded some other way. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From JforJames at aol.com Mon Apr 7 10:08:52 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:08:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Master Class with BRENDA HILLMAN Message-ID: <69.36df2bb1.2bc2e074@aol.com> t's not too late! We're still accepting applications for the upcoming Master Class with BRENDA HILLMAN. Master Classes at Poets House offer advanced writers of poetry an opportunity to work intensively with some of the most respected poets of our time. _________________________________________________ New Issues in Poetry and Poetics: A Seminar with Brenda Hillman Saturday, May 10 1:30-5:30pm Sunday, May 11 1:30-5:30pm $250, Space is limited Applications deadline: TUESDAY APRIL 8 An alternative to traditional workshops, this class aims to contextualize students? poems within the broad field of contemporary poetry. Participants will be asked to bring copies of poems in process, including a page of prose (or poetics theory) that relates to the work, and to ask several questions they would like Brenda Hillman to address. These questions will be used as the basis for discussions about craft and aesthetics. Brenda Hillman is the author of six books including Loose Sugar and Cascadia. She teaches at St. Mary's College in Moraga, CA. _______________________________________________ To Apply: Applications consist of three poems and a cover sheet with contact information for the applicant. Application materials will not be returned. Tuition fees due upon acceptance. Please send your applications to: Poets House 72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor New York, NY 10012 You may also email it to: suzanne at poetshouse.org PLEASE DO NOT EMAIL YOUR WORK AS AN ATTACHMENT Simply include your poems and contact info in the body of the plain text message. Thank you! _________________________________________________ From bardo at optonline.net Mon Apr 7 10:34:12 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 10:34:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <3E8AA427.25120.386F9D@localhost> Message-ID: <006e01c2fd12$c2508250$6d94c044@MULDER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > As in Viet Nam, we seem > > prepared to "destroy the village in order to save it." Congress has given > > the usurper in the White House carte blanche, nearly dictatorial power to > > prosecute this aggression, and has permitted > > the maniacal and prudish attorney general power over American citizens > > greater than at any time since Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the > > Civil War (and behind that, since the Alien and Sedition Acts under John > > Adams).<< > > True, and that abdication of power is very bad judgment -- but you > are once again making an appeal to intention here when you say > "maniacal and prudish attorney general". You are attributing > intentions to him. You can't have it both ways. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > Bush & Co. knew they would kill civilians and thought the price worth it, > > just as Madeline Albright considered the deaths of half a million Iraqi > > children an "acceptable" price of "containing" Saddam Hussein. The party in > > power obviously makes no difference when it comes to condoning slaughter, > > whether by the sword or sickness or starvation. The policy itself stinks of > > disingenuousness and hypocrisy, and we should abandon it and return to > > diplomacy and genuine consensus-building by supplying Iraq with food and > > medicine while isolating it economically with a boycott on its exports.<< > > I agree that there are better ways to approach the problem of Iraq > and the terrorists of Al Qaeda. But your claim that we cannot weigh > intentions is wearing thin in your repeated weighings of intentions. > It appears that you don't really mean to say that we can never weigh > intentions -- you seem to want to weigh intentions *differently*, not > not at all, than they have been weighed with respect to the killing > civilians by military personnel. Your implicit proposal seems to be > that the purported intentions of the decision-makers transfer > directly down to the actions of the soldiers: that bad reasons to go > to war means that there can be no good intentions with regard to > trying to kill as few civilians as possible. Is that your view? > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > Marcus, my pointing out that the government tries to "have it both ways" with regard to intention does not mean that I try to do that, too. At every step of the chain of command, intentions may change with regard to the acceptability of civilian casualties in order to suit the conduct of war, but whether from a teleological or a deontological perspective, I cannot justify killing noncombatants. That does not disqualify me from questioning the intentions of the government, nor does it mean that I regard such intentions as neutral. I merely pointed out that intentions mean nothing to the dead. They mean a great deal to the living, but only when the structure within which people attempt to realize them does not by its nature thwart them. War kills noncombatants--in this case, in a country which has not attacked us and which poses far less threat to us than Bush & Co. claim. However much we glorify war with medals and speeches and flags, it kills people. To see a proposal that would try to avoid this war as tolerating dictatorship and tyranny, as you appear to, seems to leave you no choice but to justify war and, necessarily, to accept the death of noncombatants as regretable "collateral damage." Did Bush Sr. "intend" to tolerate Saddam after the Gulf War (as he certainly had before it)? In a bank robbery, if the robber kills someone, the driver of the getaway car gets charged with murder too, even if he never intended anyone to get hurt. Our armed forces have moved in to rob Saddam of his country (more importantly, to grab his oil, as Wolfowitz urged Bush Sr. to do years ago), and the taxpayers of America sit in the getaway car, idling. I object to becoming an accessory to this crime. (Go ahead and attack that analogy if you like, but I hope you see its point.) Dan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 7 10:45:53 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 10:45:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <000f01c2fcac$985d48e0$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3E9156E1.19734.7F487D@localhost> Daniel Zimmerman: > I agree that we planned and tried to enforce sanctions and at the > same time provide aid to the Iraqi people, but we did not get > enough support from enough nations to keep Iraq's borders from > becoming porous. As long as some people and countries can put > quick profits above long-term values without penalty, the conduct > of such a policy will require more aggressive diplomacy > and economic sanctions more costly than the profits they can gain > by trading with such regimes.<< You're talking about force, Daniel -- about compulsion. You're advocating that a policy of greater and greater penalties be applied to those who do not acquiesce with the policy you favor. Force is not always force of arms -- you're talking about force of economic sanctions, for example. In the end, though, in order to enforce those economic sanctions someone somewhere is going to have to stand between the willing traders with a gun and say "No" in order to enforce the very economic sanctions you want to apply. That's the application of force, Daniel, even if only by threat of force. Daniel Zimmerman: > Bush's Evangelical jihad may prove far more dangerous to America than Saddam > Hussein. The damage to our international relations will last long after his > administration, and it will require extraordinary efforts on the part of > future administrations to reestablish our credibility ....< Well, it depends on the kind of credibility you're talking about. Certainly it's possible that it will work out as you predict, if the Bush League fails to find and try Saddam and the rest of the prominent in his regime for war crimes, and convict and execute them. There is no doubt that the Iraqi people will not believe the US was only after Saddam unless the US gets Saddam and then lives up to its promises to establish a government, or governments, in the territory of Iraq that the people there can trust to be something other than oppressive and tyrannical. And the notion that the US will just not pull the trigger when a regional problem grows to the proportions of the Saddam problem is no longer credible, so the credibility of the US is enhanced in that way. The credibility of the US as a willing participant in a world government ruled by international laws and courts has certainly been degraded, though. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bardo at optonline.net Mon Apr 7 12:09:19 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:09:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <3E9144FD.17587.39647D@localhost> Message-ID: <000901c2fd20$0bf128d0$6d94c044@MULDER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > Daniel Zimmerman: > > The "preposterous idea" of someone proposing an idea, someone else executing > > it, and the two sharing the profits did not seem preposterous to, for > > example, Art Buchwald, whose idea Eddie Murphy made into "Coming to > > America"--and a court found that Buchwald had a legitimate claim to some of > > the profit from that film.<< > > The exception proves the rule. Try to get a deal for yourself where > you have the idea and someone else writes the novel or makes the > movie. Or if you're really serious, why not set up in business to > write the novels and make the movies and share the profits with > people who have ideas? Do you search out people who have ideas for > poems or essays so that you can exeucte them? Are you always on the > lookout, do you think that most creative folks are always on the > lookout, for an idea for them to execute? Do we see poem and novel > and movie titles proliferating with "Idea by Joe Blow, Novel by > Michael Crichton"? DZ: Well, we often see screenplay adaptations of novels, memoirs and histories, and movie adaptations of Broadway plays. Ideas must adapt to local conditions and requirements. The Marshall Plan worked for Europe, but would probably not work in Somalia. If you reject the use of aid and sanctions, what alternative do you propose other than war, which necessarily and admittedly kills innocent noncombatants? If you accept war, you de facto accept the killing of innocents, however much you may not "intend" it. The driver of the getaway car may not intend his partner to kill the bank teller, but the state will charge him with murder none the less. American taxpayers now sit in the getaway car, idling. I can find no teleological or deontological justification for killing innocent people in this war. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > ... It did not seem preposterous to Jack Kennedy > > when he proposed landing a man on the moon by the end of the decade to > > gather teams of experts to do so, rather than imperiously to hand down > > directives from on high concerning every jot and tittle of rocket science.<< > > Good lord. This is entirely different. We're talking about whether > YOU have anything to offer in the way of substantive constructive > notions, and your reply is to make the Red Cross the international > army and government, and your defense of the criticism that the Red > Cross neither wants to nor is capable of being the international army > and government is that Jack Kennedy had an idea and NASA built the > program? Are you proposing then, too, that the US fund the Red Cross > just as the US funded NASA? And if so, how in your mind does that > not make the Red Cross an arm of the US government? How does that > make whatever the Red Cross does something other than what the US > Army is doing now? > > You seem to be embracing ideas that have no merit whatever in hopes > that sheer idealism will shine in my eyes and blind me to the obvious > pitfalls. > DZ: If the government gives me a grant to write poetry (fat chance), does that make me a government agent? Do you consider a whole lot of American poets flunkies for the government? A poet can get a grant, write anti-government poetry, and even get another grant after that! If the US (and the UN, for that matter), give agencies like the Red Cross grants to provide aid to the starving victims of a dictator, do you think it likely that those agencies would give the aid to the rich instead? > Daniel Zimmerman: > > Why do presidents have cabinets, councils of economic advisors, the joint > > chiefs of staff, white house counsels, and experts of all kinds to assist > > them in their decision making? You seem to think that only someone with all > > the answers can have any answers at all--or can even make so bold as to > > suggest ideas!< DZ: I agree with you about Bush, but-having neither a famous name nor a particularly engaging manner-I have not thrown my hat in the ring as a candidate for the presidency. I don't see the point of your comment here as a response to what I said about your apparent insistence that a person should either have all the answers or basically shut up. > > Not in the least -- I'm suggesting that someone with no ideas and > nothing to offer beyond an engaging manner and a famous name ought > not be put in charge in hopes that he'll be able to pick the > appropriate advisors. And, of course, if the "appropriate advisors" > have picked HIM to be the frontman for their agenda, well, that's > pretty sleazy, don't you think? THEY won't run on their ideas -- they > want a guy with an engaging manner and a famous name to frong for > them so they don't have to run on their ideas. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > ...You accuse me of abdicating responsibility because I do not provide a nuts > > and bolts blueprint for the implementation of a broad policy. ...<< > > I point out that the notions you do offer are so completely and > obviously unworkable that if you can't offer better notions than > those that you ought to do some more homework. Your notion that > "international aid agencies" might compel governments to do good is > nonsense; and your notion that those agencies would be willing to > represent themselves as independent while actually implementing US > foreign policy is nonsense on stilts. DZ: Those "completely and obviously unworkable" notions did not seem so to the UN, to Bush Sr., or to Clinton-and might have proven workable if they had put more work into implementing them effectively. 20/20 hindsight does not translate to 20/20 foresight; conditions change. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > Did I say anything about "compelling"? You use that term here as a straw > > man of your own invention which you appear to attribute to me in order to > > attack me for something I never said. I wrote about using diplomacy and > > persuasion, not compulsion, to gain the cooperation of agencies which > > already provide aid apart from politics to continue to do just that.<< > > You're offering the Red Cross as the new internagional government and > you think you're not talking about compulsion? You think that > diplomacy and trade has nothing to do with compulsion? You think > that without a system of compulsion persuasion has any force? You are > implicitly postulating a way to compel regimes to do something other > than pursue their own short-term selfish goals if you're really > trying to offer a solution to the problem rather than just > ineffectual hand-waving. > > Who do you think is going to enforce the agreements that are > negotiated through diplomacy, Daniel? DZ: I do not at all offer the Red Cross as an international government, since it has virtually nothing in common with a government to begin with. As to "compulsion," the application of economic and diplomatic pressure on the one hand and the application of military power on the other seem sufficiently incommensurable that stretching the term "compulsion" to cover both attenuates it beyond legitimate use. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > The sword compels; the pen, which I recommended, persuades--if it can make a > > sufficiently strong argument. In the case of Iraq, Bush's "pen" (the > > accusation that Iraq possesses WMD and somehow cooperates with Al Qaeda) > > failed to convince because of lack of evidence; his resort to the sword > > merely testifies to his failure with the pen.<< > > Just so -- that's exactly what it is a testimony to. And that's > exactly why your notion that diplomacy with never an admission that > the pen has failed is doomed itself to failure. So long as you're > willing endlessly to talk and appease the dictatorial regimes will be > willing endlessly to bully and seize. Is there no point where you > draw the line and say that physical force, compulsion, has to be > resorted to BECAUSE the pen has failed? DZ: When a clearly identifiable enemy uses violence against a person, group or country, I believe that can justify the use, by the offended party and/or its allies, of violence-as a last resort-against that person, group or country. I have no wish to "appease" tyrants, but I believe that stronger non-martial efforts to deal with Saddam might have worked and that we should have tried much harder to develop and apply such methods. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > ... In resorting to war, Bush has, as William Blake said > > long ago, "become what he beholds"-- a tyrant ("The iron hand crushed the > > tyrant's head / And became a tyrant in his stead").<< > > There are also examples (Cincinnatus, Washington) of people who are > willing to fight and then go back to their farms. It is, too true, > far more likely to end up Blake's way, but it is not necessary. I'm > no supporter of the Bush League's ineptitude at getting us into this > war. I agree that there were lots of steps to take before this one. I > even can scarcely believe that another Bush was so politically inept > as to fight another war in the middle of another term, so that just > as the quagmire starts to harden around its feet after the war is > over and the occupation has begun, he has to run for re-election. But > that's his own bad judgment as I see it. > > But I'd like to ask again whether you see the process as one that is > ultimately grounded in physical compulsion, or as one that is > grounded some other way. > DZ: Insofar as we can talk of a process, we should talk about peaceful (though aggressive) diplomatic and economic means; insofar as we talk about physical compulsion, we accept the end of process and bury our adversaries in the ground. Anciently, the founding of a city required human sacrifice buried in the city walls; I hope that regime change (or policy change) may require less drastic sacrifice in the future. > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Mon Apr 7 12:28:06 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 12:28:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] spring issue of _moria_ Message-ID: <151.1df1c702.2bc30116@aol.com> Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 18:26:01 -0600 From: Allegrezza Subject: Atlanta Poetry Group and _moria_ The spring issue of _moria_ is now online. It is a special issue devoted to the APG. It contains poetry by individual poets, collaborations, and an interview. Go to www.moriapoetry.com to see it. Bill Allegrezza From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 7 12:44:04 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 12:44:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <006e01c2fd12$c2508250$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3E917294.13266.EB7E9E@localhost> Daniel Zimmerman: > ... At every > step of the chain of command, intentions may change with regard to the > acceptability of civilian casualties in order to suit the conduct of war, > but whether from a teleological or a deontological perspective, I cannot > justify killing noncombatants. ... > In a bank robbery, if the robber kills someone, the driver of the getaway > car gets charged with murder too, even if he never intended anyone to get > hurt. The question is who is the criminal in the analogy to the war in Iraq, though. The US is asserting that it is the cop chasing the criminals and that US intentions are to kill or injure as few civilians as possible, while the Iraqi position is that if they can put as many civilians between them and the US forces as possible perhaps they can make the US look bad by shooting some of those civilians themselves and pointing out those that the US has shot while loudly proclaiming the villainy of the US. Daniel Zimmerman: > Our armed forces have moved in to rob Saddam of his country (more > importantly, to grab his oil, as Wolfowitz urged Bush Sr. to do years ago), > and the taxpayers of America sit in the getaway car, idling. I object to > becoming an accessory to this crime. (Go ahead and attack that analogy if > you like, but I hope you see its point.)<< The analogies you offer are not working out too well. Perhaps you would support an advocate of bank-robbing, but only if the bank robbers are willing to kill civilians and hold civilians hostage against the police while the robbers loudly proclaim that the police brutality justifies their holding hostages? You're positing that Saddam Hussein is a pillar of the international community, the owner of a bank, an institution of respect and power, and the US is some two-bit desperado deserving only of opprobrium. But this seems to me to be a mis-reading of the situation, though the US is not without any blame. The problem is in looking only at the blame the US is worthy of, without examining the blame that the other parties are trying to duck. Daniel Zimmerman: > War kills noncombatants--in this case, in a country which has not attacked > us and which poses far less threat to us than Bush & Co. claim. However much > we glorify war with medals and speeches and flags, it kills people. To see a > proposal that would try to avoid this war as tolerating dictatorship and > tyranny, as you appear to, seems to leave you no choice but to justify war > and, necessarily, to accept the death of noncombatants as regretable > "collateral damage." ...<< Well, we can agree on the ineptness of the Bush League; we can agree on the level of threat that Hussein & co. pose; we can agree that war kills people however much glorification work is done by the PR people; but I don't agree that war is always the worst choice possible nor that principles and intentions cannot ameliorate the blame for killing civilians in war zones. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From elemenope at icubed.com Sun Apr 6 23:54:21 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:54:21 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] WMDs Verfied in Iraq. UN Blixites confuted, red faced! Message-ID: Radical Liberalism leads inevitably and most assuredly to the EXACT OPPOSITE of its stated intentions (Quinn's Law): > >>But I do believe a less arrogant and inept president. after 9/11, might >>still have been able to get the Security Council to stand by its words >>in Iraq so that we might not have had to fight, or at least not fight >>alone. >> >And no, I don't believe Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 Ask U.K., Poland, Spain, Italy, Roumania whether they did not fight against Saddam. As to the last notion, again, the writer wants to believe because if the opposite turned out to be true then apparently the ground upon which they stand would collapse regarding their world view. What happens if investigative reporter, Jayna Davis, turns out to be right: >http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110002217 My, oh my! The RadLibs told us that Saddam didn't have WMDs. They assured us that President Bush lacked gravitas and was his dad's puppet and now they tell us that he is arrogant, cocky and should follow his father. They told us that absolutely no connection existed between Islamist Terror Orgs and Saddam (because of Islamic ideological differences, they assured us). They told us that Iraq was turning into a Vietnam quagmire. They told us that 1000s of Iraqi civilians would be massacred by cold blooded American and Brit murdering soldiers. They told us that the Iraqi people would reject, repudiate and hate the American and Brit invaders with the same vehemence the RadLibs have for these soldiers. (And they laughed at Ronald Reagan paralyzed in hospital bed, because they could get away with it, or so they believed.) Of course, the RadLib explanation will be that these missiles were planted in Iraq by Special Forces, just as oil was created by the Republican Party in the Cretaceous Era by a team of bugeyed scientists in order to be able to drill for it and sell it to unsuspecting billions in the Bush Era in order to keep Ivy League English professors upset that the world was under cowboy thrall! >Report: U.S. Finds Missiles with Chemical Weapons > > >Reuters >Monday, April 7, 2003; 10:25 AM > > >WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. forces near Baghdad found a weapons >cache of around 20 medium-range missiles equipped with potent >chemical weapons, the U.S. news station National Public Radio >reported on Monday. > >NPR, which attributed the report to a top official with the 1st >Marine Division, said the rockets, BM-21 missiles, were equipped >with sarin and mustard gas and were "ready to fire." It quoted the >source as saying new U.S. intelligence data showed the chemicals >were "not just trace elements." > >It said the cache was discovered by Marines with the 101st Airborne >Division, which was following up behind the Army after it seized >Baghdad's international airport. > >U.S. Central Command headquarters in Qatar had no immediate comment. > >The United States and Britain launched the war against Iraq to rid >the country of weapons of mass destruction. Iraq denies having such >weapons. > >? 2003 Reuters > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 7 13:56:24 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 13:56:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <000901c2fd20$0bf128d0$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3E918388.15429.315B9A@localhost> Daniel Zimmerman: > Well, we often see screenplay adaptations of novels, memoirs and > histories, and movie adaptations of Broadway plays.<< True enough -- but that's moving one executed complete piece of work from one medium to another, not just saying "What if a sherrif is getting married on the same day a criminal he'd put in prison is coming to town on the noon train? Great idea for a story and movie, eh?" and then expecting a bunch of other people to write the story and make the movie -- oh, yeah, and split the profits with the idea guy. > Ideas must adapt to > local conditions and requirements. The Marshall Plan worked for Europe, but > would probably not work in Somalia.<< Just so -- and that's really what I'm saying about your analogies with Japan and Iraq for example. > If you reject the use of aid and > sanctions, ...<< I don't reject them unattempted. I even agree with you that there were more steps I think should have been taken between such measures and war. But now that there is a war I'm not willing to say that any civilian death is a murder that can be used to portray the US as a villain. I'm not sure exactly where you stand on portraying any civilian death as a murder, and the US as a murderer, but it appears that your view is that every civilian death is indeed a murder and the US is a murderer if even one civilian dies. Is that your position? > what alternative do you propose other than war, which necessarily > and admittedly kills innocent noncombatants? If you accept war, you de facto > accept the killing of innocents, however much you may not "intend" it. The > driver of the getaway car may not intend his partner to kill the bank > teller, but the state will charge him with murder none the less. << True enough as far as it goes -- but the converse is true: if we accept that the cops must have weapons, we must accept that some mistakes are going to be made and some innocent people will die -- are you saying that all those innocents must be treated as murder, as intentional, unameliorated, first-degree murder by the state through its police agents of innocent people, and will you decree that the state must be put to death if even one innocent person dies at the hands of the state's agents? The problem with analogies is that they all break down somewhere. But your analogies are peculiarly liable to breaking down without making the point you seem to want to make. Daniel Zimmerman: > If the government gives me a grant to write poetry (fat chance), does > that make me a government agent? << Well, I suppose it would depend on the terms of the grant. It certainly could. But it doesn't necessarily have to. > Do you consider a whole lot of American > poets flunkies for the government? A poet can get a grant, write > anti-government poetry, and even get another grant after that! If the US > (and the UN, for that matter), give agencies like the Red Cross grants to > provide aid to the starving victims of a dictator, do you think it likely > that those agencies would give the aid to the rich instead?< The Red Cross itself has been grappling with this issue and initially declared that it would not take money from the governments of the "coalition of the willing" precisely so that it could distance itself from the war aims of the US government and its allies. So the question is precisely as you pose it: is one an agent of those who give one money? The normal answer is a qualified yes, depending on the terms of the exchange. There are some qualified noes, too -- it depends on the terms. Your proposal, as I understood it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) was to get international aid agencies to function as the US state and defense departements by allowing those agencies to give and withhold aid based on the compliance or non-compliance of the regime of the people the agencies were trying to help with food and medicine. It was your position, I think, that those aid agencies could do a better job than either the regime of the people or the US and its allies in allocating goods and services throughout an entire nation in a way that is both fair and just and that at the same time prevents the government from interfering with that distribution. In effect, you are proposing to make the Red Cross and other aid agencies simultaneously the world government and the government of the country where the problem exists, and it seems that you aren't willing to acknowledge the extent to which such interference in the affairs of a country would be intolerable both to that government and to any other government, for what you can do to one government you can do to any (if we're talking merely of moral justification here). I'm trying to point out that the notion that international aid agencies can function as world government and as individual countries' governments at one and the same time is deeply flawed for many reasons. Daniel Zimmerman: > I agree with you about Bush, but-having neither a famous name nor a > particularly engaging manner-I have not thrown my hat in the ring as a > candidate for the presidency. I don't see the point of your comment here as > a response to what I said about your apparent insistence that a person > should either have all the answers or basically shut up.<< I'm trying to point out that those of us who have neither engaging manners nor famous names are under more of an obligation to detail our solutions than those who can be hired to be front men for big money interests. It is not in our ambit to merely propose and rely on others to dispose. Daniel Zimmerman: > Those "completely and obviously unworkable" notions did not seem so to > the UN, to Bush Sr., or to Clinton-and might have proven workable if they > had put more work into implementing them effectively. 20/20 hindsight does > not translate to 20/20 foresight; conditions change.< Very true, conditions change. But the very necessity for "more work into implementing them more effectively" argues persuasively, it seems to me, that what makes economic sanctions work is the ability to compel others to do or to forbear doing. It seems to me that the implementation of sanctions requires implicitly the willingness to use force to compel compliance. Absent the willingness to compel compliance, which seems to me to be equivalent to your "implementing them more effectively", the economic sanctions won't work. You have to be willing to advocate, along with the sanctions themselves, the implementing measures, it seems to me -- you have to be willing to have the physical force willing and ready to interpose between willing traders: those who would trade with Iraq and Iraq. Are you willing to support employing such interposition in future situations? If not, what exactly do you mean by "implementing them more effectively"? Daniel Zimmerman: > I do not at all offer the Red Cross as an international government, > since it has virtually nothing in common with a government to begin with.<< But you're proposing to try to get the RC to do the WORK of an international government -- and of the local government, too, when you suggest that the RC and other international aid agencies ought to be empowered (and empowered how, exactly?) to distribute goods and services in-country in ways that the local government may oppose. > As > to "compulsion," the application of economic and diplomatic pressure on the > one hand and the application of military power on the other seem > sufficiently incommensurable that stretching the term "compulsion" to cover > both attenuates it beyond legitimate use.< Economic and diplomatic pressure are implemented by military power -- or the threat of it. Without a credible threat of military power the sanctionee may simply ignore the "pressure". You seem to be determined to believe that if only the Red Cross would send enough people to a place like Iraq their moral suasion combined with their supplies of food and medicine would go right to "the people", isolating and delegitimizing "the government" with a sort of blithe and bloodless efficacy. What makes you think a government, replete with the mechanisms and accoutrements of power, would tolerate the Red Cross usurping its decision-making authority about what goes on in its country? Daniel Zimmerman: > When a clearly identifiable enemy uses violence against a person, group > or country, I believe that can justify the use, by the offended party > and/or its allies, of violence-as a last resort-against that person, group > or country. I have no wish to "appease" tyrants, but I believe that > stronger non-martial efforts to deal with Saddam might have worked and that > we should have tried much harder to develop and apply such methods.< Well, I agree that "stronger non-martial efforts ... might have worked" -- but not those that you have so far put forward, which seem to be ludicrously na?ve to me. It seems to me that non-violence is not always the best solution, any more than that violence is always the worst. I'd be happy to talk about just what sorts of "stronger non-martial efforts" might have been employed, but just asking international aid agencies to substitute themselves for local governments without giving them the military support required to do so is just asking for international aid agency personnel to sacrifice themselves without hope of success. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Apr 7 13:48:02 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:48:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Meanwhile back in Afghanistan . . . Message-ID: <000d01c2fd2d$d604f540$a564f4d1@computer> Taliban Reviving Structure in Afghanistan By KATHY GANNON KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (AP) - Before executing the International Red Cross worker, the Taliban gunmen made a satellite telephone call to their superior for instructions: Kill him? Kill him, the order came back, and Ricardo Munguia, whose body was found with 20 bullet wounds last month, became the first foreign aid worker to die in Afghanistan since the Taliban's ouster from power 18 months ago. The manner of his death suggests the Taliban is not only determined to remain a force in this country, but is reorganizing and reviving its command structure. There is little to stop them. The soldiers and police who were supposed to be the bedrock of a stable postwar Afghanistan have gone unpaid for months and are drifting away. At a time when the United States is promising a reconstructed democratic postwar Iraq, many Afghans are remembering hearing similar promises not long ago. Instead, what they see is thieving warlords, murder on the roads, and a resurgence of Taliban vigilantism. ``It's like I am seeing the same movie twice and no one is trying to fix the problem,'' said Ahmed Wali Karzai, the brother of Afghanistan's president and his representative in southern Kandahar. ``What was promised to Afghans with the collapse of the Taliban was a new life of hope and change. But what was delivered? Nothing. Everyone is back in business.'' Karzai said reconstruction has been painfully slow - a canal repaired, a piece of city road paved, a small school rebuilt. ``There have been no significant changes for people,'' he said. ``People are tired of seeing small, small projects. I don't know what to say to people anymore.'' When the Taliban ruled they forcibly conscripted young men. ``Today I can say 'we don't take your sons away by force to fight at the front line,''' Karzai remarked. ``But that's about all I can say.'' From safe havens in neighboring Pakistan, aided by militant Muslim groups there, the Taliban launched their revival to coincide with the war in Iraq and capitalize on Muslim anger over the U.S. invasion, say Afghan officials. Karzai said the Taliban are allied with rebel commander Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, supported by Pakistan and financed by militant Arabs. The attacks have targeted foreigners and the threats have been directed toward Afghans working for international organizations. Abdul Salam is a military commander for the government. Last month he was stopped at a Taliban checkpoint in the Shah Wali Kot district of Kandahar and became a witness to the killing of Munguia, a 39-year-old water engineer from El Salvador. After stopping Munguia and his three-vehicle convoy, gunmen made a phone call to Mullah Dadullah, a powerful former Taliban commander who happens to have an artificial leg provided by the Red Cross. Mimicking a telephone receiver by cupping a hand on his ear, Salam recalled the gunmen's side of the conversation. ``I heard him say Mullah Dadullah,'' he said. ``I heard him ask for instructions.'' When the conversation ended the Taliban moved quickly, Salam said. They shoved Munguia behind one of the vehicles, siphoned gasoline from the tanks and used it to set the vehicles on fire. Munguia was standing nearby. One Taliban raised his Kalashnikov rifle and fired at Manguia. Then they told the others: ``You are working with kafirs (unbelievers). You are slaves of Karzai and Karzai is a slave to America.'' ``This time we will let you go because you are Afghan,'' Salam remembered them saying, ``but if we find you again and you are still working for the government we will kill you.'' In the latest killing in southern Afghanistan, gunmen on Thursday shot to death Haji Gilani, a close Karzai ally, in southern Uruzgan province. Gilani was one of the first people to shelter Karzai when he secretly entered Afghanistan to foment a rebellion against the Taliban in late 2001. International workers in Kandahar don't feel safe anymore and some have been moved from the Kandahar region to safer areas, said John Oerum, southwest security officer for the United Nations. But Oerum is trying to find a way to stay in southern Afghanistan. To abandon it would be to let the rebel forces win, he says. The Red Cross, with 150 foreign workers in Afghanistan, have suspended operations indefinitely. Today most Afghans say their National Army seems a distant dream while the U.S.-led coalition continues to feed and finance warlords for their help in hunting for Taliban and al-Qaida fighters. Karzai, the president's brother, says: ``We have to pay more attention at the district level, build the administration. We know who these Taliban are, but we don't have the people to report them when they return.'' Khan Mohammed, commander of Kandahar's 2nd Corps, says his soldiers haven't been paid in seven months, and his fighting force has dwindled. The Kandahar police chief, Mohammed Akram, said he wants 50 extra police in each district where the Taliban have a stronghold. But he says his police haven't been paid in months and hundreds have just gone home. ``There is no real administration all over Afghanistan, no army, no police,'' said Mohammed. ``The people do not want the Taliban, but we have to unite and build, but we are not.'' 04/07/03 04:04 Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 7 14:18:17 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 14:18:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <1049606386.3e8fb8f2d3390@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <200304060143.h361h3ST031291@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3E9188A9.31901.4565A5@localhost> Mike Magee: > ... James is suggesting that we experiment with the > alledgedly nonsensical in order to see what might make room for > itself as sensical....Stein holds him to that.<< Well, experimenting with the allegedly nonsensical is one thing, and judging what makes room for itself as sensical is another. I am not saying that someone should have prevented Stein from writing or publishing her experiments -- I'm only pointing out that those experiments in the nonsensical don't provide much in the way of making room for itself as sensical. Using nonsense as a point of departure is yet a third thing. The question, though, is whether the point of arrival, the work of art, is sensical. http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/apr03/yezzi.htm "[Yvor] Winters reminds us that language carries weight beyond its literal, denotative meaning, each word containing an affective charge produced by the connotative penumbra surrounding it. When a poet deploys words in a poem, he must be in control of the associative power of language in order to convey reasonably and responsibly the essence of his subject. He does this in a very particular way that prose writers cannot manage as precisely. ?Writing, as it approaches the looseness of prose and departs from the strictness of verse,? Winters explains, ?tends to lose the capacity for fluid and highly complex relationships between words; language, in short, reapproaches its original stiffness and generality.? Political discourse can be sly, subtle, filled with emotion and figurative language, but it lags behind poems in the aesthetic attention paid to the interrelation of words and to the fine-tuned calibrations of emotion they embody." Wherever you start rgarding art, in other words, you have to be aware of what you're doing, and how and why you're doing it. But what seems to be being put forward here is the notion that far from being obligated to know what one is doing and why, art can be random or nonsense just because someone claims with a straight face that their work is a piece of art. Or do I misunderstand what you're saying? Marcus Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bardo at optonline.net Mon Apr 7 17:32:01 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 17:32:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <3E918388.15429.315B9A@localhost> Message-ID: <009e01c2fd4d$21249570$6d94c044@MULDER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > Daniel Zimmerman: > > Well, we often see screenplay adaptations of novels, memoirs and > > histories, and movie adaptations of Broadway plays.<< > > True enough -- but that's moving one executed complete piece of work > from one medium to another, not just saying "What if a sherrif is > getting married on the same day a criminal he'd put in prison is > coming to town on the noon train? Great idea for a story and movie, > eh?" and then expecting a bunch of other people to write the story > and make the movie -- oh, yeah, and split the profits with the idea > guy. DZ: The policy of humanitarian aid coupled with sanctions did not originate with me, as you have pointed out. It came about as a result of international debate and compromise, the details of its implementation developing as a result of that debate and the consequent modifications of that idea. I merely suggested that we should have continued (and should return to) that policy, but that its implementation obviously requires further strengthening in order to make it work. You pretend that I claimed the idea as my own, then you mock and attack me for not providing the details to implement it; I maintain that international negotiation and cooperation alone can hope to redefine those details and make them work. > > > Ideas must adapt to > > local conditions and requirements. The Marshall Plan worked for Europe, but > > would probably not work in Somalia.<< > > Just so -- and that's really what I'm saying about your analogies > with Japan and Iraq for example. > > > If you reject the use of aid and > > sanctions, ...<< > > I don't reject them unattempted. I even agree with you that there > were more steps I think should have been taken between such measures > and war. But now that there is a war I'm not willing to say that any > civilian death is a murder that can be used to portray the US as a > villain. > > I'm not sure exactly where you stand on portraying any civilian death > as a murder, and the US as a murderer, but it appears that your view > is that every civilian death is indeed a murder and the US is a > murderer if even one civilian dies. Is that your position? DZ: International law has long recognized preemptive attack as a crime. When Japan attacked our fleet at Pearl Harbor preemptively, we regarded it as a criminal act of war. Many nations now regard our attack on Iraq as illegal. If we take such an action knowing that civilians will very probably die (even if we don't "intend" that consequence and try to avoid it), if even one civilian dies as a result, I believe we have committed criminally negligent homicide, a crime which does not require proof of intent to establish guilt. Our refusal to recognize various aspects of international law and jurisdiction does not absolve us of that crime, nor does our pathetic appeal to self-defense. We had the alternative not to attack, however ineffective the means we employed before attacking had proven vis a vis our goals. > > > what alternative do you propose other than war, which necessarily > > and admittedly kills innocent noncombatants? If you accept war, you de facto > > accept the killing of innocents, however much you may not "intend" it. The > > driver of the getaway car may not intend his partner to kill the bank > > teller, but the state will charge him with murder none the less. << > > True enough as far as it goes -- but the converse is true: if we > accept that the cops must have weapons, we must accept that some > mistakes are going to be made and some innocent people will die -- > are you saying that all those innocents must be treated as murder, as > intentional, unameliorated, first-degree murder by the state through > its police agents of innocent people, and will you decree that the > state must be put to death if even one innocent person dies at the > hands of the state's agents? > > The problem with analogies is that they all break down somewhere. But > your analogies are peculiarly liable to breaking down without making > the point you seem to want to make. DZ: Of course I don't say that "the state must be put to death if even one innocent person dies at the hands of the state's agents." Perhaps all straw men break down somewhere, too. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > If the government gives me a grant to write poetry (fat chance), does > > that make me a government agent? << > > Well, I suppose it would depend on the terms of the grant. It > certainly could. But it doesn't necessarily have to. > > > Do you consider a whole lot of American > > poets flunkies for the government? A poet can get a grant, write > > anti-government poetry, and even get another grant after that! If the US > > (and the UN, for that matter), give agencies like the Red Cross grants to > > provide aid to the starving victims of a dictator, do you think it likely > > that those agencies would give the aid to the rich instead?< > > The Red Cross itself has been grappling with this issue and initially > declared that it would not take money from the governments of the > "coalition of the willing" precisely so that it could distance itself > from the war aims of the US government and its allies. > > So the question is precisely as you pose it: is one an agent of those > who give one money? The normal answer is a qualified yes, depending > on the terms of the exchange. There are some qualified noes, too -- > it depends on the terms. > > Your proposal, as I understood it (and please correct me if I'm > wrong) was to get international aid agencies to function as the US > state and defense departements by allowing those agencies to give and > withhold aid based on the compliance or non-compliance of the regime > of the people the agencies were trying to help with food and > medicine. It was your position, I think, that those aid agencies > could do a better job than either the regime of the people or the US > and its allies in allocating goods and services throughout an entire > nation in a way that is both fair and just and that at the same time > prevents the government from interfering with that distribution. In > effect, you are proposing to make the Red Cross and other aid > agencies simultaneously the world government and the government of > the country where the problem exists, and it seems that you aren't > willing to acknowledge the extent to which such interference in the > affairs of a country would be intolerable both to that government and > to any other government, for what you can do to one government you > can do to any (if we're talking merely of moral justification here). > > I'm trying to point out that the notion that international aid > agencies can function as world government and as individual > countries' governments at one and the same time is deeply flawed for > many reasons. DZ: I do not want the Red Cross to "function as the US state and defense departments." I would like to see the Red Cross and any other agency that could offer help to do so. That does not mean that it would have any more political function than it now has. I understand the reluctance of that agency to function merely as an arm of a "coalition of the willing." Therefore, I've proposed that much greater diplomatic efforts take place in order to gain the support of a much larger proportion of the nations of the world. If Iraq refuses such aid, it would only condemn itself further and make the diplomatic and economic isolation of that country even more justifiable. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > I agree with you about Bush, but-having neither a famous name nor a > > particularly engaging manner-I have not thrown my hat in the ring as a > > candidate for the presidency. I don't see the point of your comment here as > > a response to what I said about your apparent insistence that a person > > should either have all the answers or basically shut up.<< > > I'm trying to point out that those of us who have neither engaging > manners nor famous names are under more of an obligation to detail > our solutions than those who can be hired to be front men for big > money interests. It is not in our ambit to merely propose and rely on > others to dispose. > DZ: You may speak for your own ambit if you like; please do not presume to speak for mine. > Daniel Zimmerman: > > Those "completely and obviously unworkable" notions did not seem so to > > the UN, to Bush Sr., or to Clinton-and might have proven workable if they > > had put more work into implementing them effectively. 20/20 hindsight does > > not translate to 20/20 foresight; conditions change.< > > Very true, conditions change. But the very necessity for "more work > into implementing them more effectively" argues persuasively, it > seems to me, that what makes economic sanctions work is the ability > to compel others to do or to forbear doing. It seems to me that the > implementation of sanctions requires implicitly the willingness to > use force to compel compliance. Absent the willingness to compel > compliance, which seems to me to be equivalent to your "implementing > them more effectively", the economic sanctions won't work. > > You have to be willing to advocate, along with the sanctions > themselves, the implementing measures, it seems to me -- you have to > be willing to have the physical force willing and ready to interpose > between willing traders: those who would trade with Iraq and Iraq. > Are you willing to support employing such interposition in future > situations? If not, what exactly do you mean by "implementing them > more effectively"? > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > I do not at all offer the Red Cross as an international government, > > since it has virtually nothing in common with a government to begin with.<< > > But you're proposing to try to get the RC to do the WORK of an > international government -- and of the local government, too, when > you suggest that the RC and other international aid agencies ought to > be empowered (and empowered how, exactly?) to distribute goods and > services in-country in ways that the local government may oppose. > > > As > > to "compulsion," the application of economic and diplomatic pressure on the > > one hand and the application of military power on the other seem > > sufficiently incommensurable that stretching the term "compulsion" to cover > > both attenuates it beyond legitimate use.< > > Economic and diplomatic pressure are implemented by military power -- > or the threat of it. Without a credible threat of military power the > sanctionee may simply ignore the "pressure". You seem to be > determined to believe that if only the Red Cross would send enough > people to a place like Iraq their moral suasion combined with their > supplies of food and medicine would go right to "the people", > isolating and delegitimizing "the government" with a sort of blithe > and bloodless efficacy. > > What makes you think a government, replete with the mechanisms and > accoutrements of power, would tolerate the Red Cross usurping its > decision-making authority about what goes on in its country? > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > When a clearly identifiable enemy uses violence against a person, group > > or country, I believe that can justify the use, by the offended party > > and/or its allies, of violence-as a last resort-against that person, group > > or country. I have no wish to "appease" tyrants, but I believe that > > stronger non-martial efforts to deal with Saddam might have worked and that > > we should have tried much harder to develop and apply such methods.< > > Well, I agree that "stronger non-martial efforts ... might have > worked" -- but not those that you have so far put forward, which seem > to be ludicrously na?ve to me. It seems to me that non-violence is > not always the best solution, any more than that violence is always > the worst. I'd be happy to talk about just what sorts of "stronger > non-martial efforts" might have been employed, but just asking > international aid agencies to substitute themselves for local > governments without giving them the military support required to do > so is just asking for international aid agency personnel to sacrifice > themselves without hope of success. DZ: Well, "stronger non-martial efforts" might include revocation of most-favored nation status for countries trading with a quarantined regime like Saddam's, suspension of foreign aid to such countries, suspension of cultural exchanges and various legations, naval and air blockade of Iraq (violators attacking the blockade and could be met with legitimate defensive force), etc. The business community would squirm, of course, but it would certainly "put our money where our mouth is," and would give that business community (which ordinarily has little interest in improving the lot of foreign citizens unable to sign lucrative contracts) palpable incentive to encourage rapid compliance in order to get back to business as usual. Dan PS: To spare the list any further tedium on these matters, I suggest that if we continue this discussion we should do it back channel unless list members request that we keep it public. > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Mon Apr 7 19:38:34 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:38:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Open Letter to Poets Against The War Message-ID: <1a2.12cdc1d2.2bc365fa@aol.com> From: Todd Swift Subject: Open Letter to Poets Against The War - A Challenge to Celebrate All Anti-War Poetry Now {Please Forward Widely - Editor of 100 Poets Against The War calls on Poets Against The War to make May 1 a day to celebrate all the many peace poetry collections and campaigns of the last few months} April 7, 2003 Dear Poets Against The War, While asking poets and activists to organise readings on your "behalf", buy your t-shirts, and make donations, in your impressive emails, why do you not mention the other fine anti-war anthologies (not for profit) currently available, such as Irish Poets Against The War, A Common Sky (Canada) and the global, and original poets against the war anthology (from which a good number of your poems were cc'd, as you may recall), 100 Poets Against The War? I applaud the excellent work Poets Against The War has done. However, you should recognise that the world-wide poetry protests against US military, political and (yes, cultural) unilateralism/exceptionalism were not all hosted in the name of your umbrella organisation, nor to perpetuate one group at the expense of a greater good. There has been a more complex, richer and greater multiplicity of voices and editors - a global grassworks network - at work - than your monolithic announcements seem to recongnize or celebrate. Some history, before your previously-announced "documentary" is completed. The term "poets against the war" of course is originally from the Vietnam era. On January 27, 2003 - after a week of email requests - the first global anti-war anthology - "100 Poets Against The War" came from www.nthposition.com; January 28, your organisation put up its poets against the war website; we were happy to send countless poems your way, and often received ones people had shared with you as well. That month, tens of thousands of people downloaded, printed up, and read from the nthposition books, and staged peace readings world-wide. Often, they referred to these events as "poets against the war" events, but read from our books, or their own poems. As Poets Against The War time and again identified these nthposition readings, from Japan to Germany to Ireland, as solely theirs in press messages, we became bemused, even proud to share the global stage with such grand friends. Importantly, for the wider cause of peace protest, all the "against the war" events, including our ground-breaking ebooks for peace, were widely reported, globally, on CNN, and in The Times, and Guardian, and on the BBC, CBC, NPR, and so on. It did not seem to matter - then - what good people called it, so long as we all worked for peace. But since the war began, what should have been unities of purpose have broken down, as marketing, branding, and personal goals seem to have obscured a wider, more vital community purpose. The irony of American peace protests using rugged-individual, entrepreneurial methods is notable. This is not the time or place to indicate exactly how some anti-war poetry publishers have failed the greater good, or each other, but I shall say that a Babel was introduced when consensus and co-operation would have been perhaps more impressive. In plainer terms: the plot was lost. While Poets Against The War's efforts have been inspiring - they would be exponentially more graceful and appropriate, if you actually agreed to co-ordinate promotion, launch and reading, efforts with the other anti-war poetry publishers, which I and others have requested on several previous occasions. There are poets behind each poem, and these people deserve to reach the widest audience with their fine message. I call upon you, Poets Against The War, on your May Day (May 1) day of international poetry against war, to use your powerful PR machine to mention and promote the other - indeed all - anti-war poetry anthologies - released during this fraught period of terrible war. And to invite poets from these many other collections to read with you. I do this in a spirit of camaraderie - knowing as you do, how many unpaid hours we all put in to this struggle to write, edit, publish and promote, good poems for a greater cause. All our poems should be now celebrated and all our anti-war books known. Poets Against The War should be big enough to contain such multitudes, and share credit, where it is due. best wishes Todd ps Thanks to an illegal war fought by the US and UK governments, over 1,200 Iraqi civilians have been murdered since March 20, 2003. Poetry is not, in itself, the main message, now. ______________________________________ Todd Swift www.nthposition.com Editor 100 Poets Against The War The Original and Global Poetry Book Against War In Iraq Published March 3, 2003 Salt, Cambridge, UK 100 Poets Against The War Peace Readings: London Launch March 5 Los Angeles Launch March 7 Austin Launches March 9 & 10 Paris Launch March 10 New York Launch March 14 Montreal Launch March 16 Toronto Launch March 19 ILLEGAL WAR BEGINS March 20 Galway Launch March 21 Ottawa Launch March 23 San Francisco Launch March 30 New York Reading March 31 Boston Launch April 2 1200 IRAQI CIVILIANS KILLED AS OF April 6 Oxford April 27 (Amnesty Event) Washington, DC Launch May 15 Books at Amazon and from Ingram Distribution All Profits from Sales For Amnesty International "The only effective answer that a poet can make to barbarism is poetry..." Siegfried Sassoon From rjpoetry at yahoo.com Mon Apr 7 18:22:20 2003 From: rjpoetry at yahoo.com (RJ McCaffery) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 15:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Haven Poetry Workshop is Open Message-ID: <20030407222220.88504.qmail@web41008.mail.yahoo.com> I?d like to announce the opening of Haven, a public poetry workshop. As a private workshop, Haven has existed in several forms since 1998. Recently we decided to add a public area to the workshop. First and foremost, Haven is to be a moderated workshop for experienced poets; this means we expect people posting at Haven to be familiar with the basic and most commonly accepted workshopping caveats and etiquette. If you have never workshopped your poetry, either on-line or in a physical workshop, we strongly encourage you to watch and read for a bit before you post. From JforJames at aol.com Mon Apr 7 19:53:02 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:53:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] well put Message-ID: <35.36261ddc.2bc3695e@aol.com> Works of genius have this intrinsic property that even when they give a perfect likeness of the nullity of things, even when they clearly demonstrate and make us feel the inevitable unhappiness of life, even when they express the most terrible despair, nevertheless...they always serve as a consolation, rekindling enthusiasm, and though speaking of and portraying nothing but death, restore to it, at least for a little while, the life that it had lost. - Giacomo Leopardi, 1798-1837 From JforJames at aol.com Mon Apr 7 20:23:11 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 20:23:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: George Bradley Message-ID: <1a5.12031743.2bc3706f@aol.com> One shouldn't judge a book by a single poem...but since Knopf is using this one (below) as its ad, I guess it's fair to say it's plain awful: "sluicing astonished soil/off to the deep disturbance of our ocean"? The sonnet is a form, not an excuse. Finnegan In a message dated 4/7/03 1:57:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com writes: > Subj: George Bradley > Date: 4/7/03 1:57:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time > From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com (knopfpoetry) > To: JforJames at aol.com > > An April poem from a sonnet sequence about the changing seasons included in > George Bradley's most recent collection, SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED. > > ************************************************* > > > Millrace > > Each April's different: this one saw a spate > Of rain increase the run-off from the snow > To make the village millpond overflow > Well-groomed banks and leap an unused gate > Into the race, which had not felt the flood > In fifty years. That's when the mill and wheel, > Back then though insufficiently genteel, > Were leveled and the stream shut up for good, > Or so it seemed. But flood will out, commotion > Run its course. I watched the water boil > Through undergrowth, sluicing astonished soil > Off toward the deep disturbance of our ocean, > And so subside and next day leave no trace > But mud and some erosion in the race. > > ************************************************* > > Excerpted from Some Assembly Required by George Bradley. Copyright? 2001 by > George Bradley. Excerpted by permission of Knopf, a division of Random House, > Inc. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or > reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher. > > About SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED: > randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=037541195X > > A conversation with George Bradley: > randomhouse.com/knopf/authors/bradley/qna.html > > Bradley's essay about his working methods: > randomhouse.com/knopf/authors/bradley/poetsonpoetry.html > > From JforJames at aol.com Mon Apr 7 20:35:23 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 20:35:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Muldoon wins Poetry Pulitzer Message-ID: <19a.13080d6e.2bc3734b@aol.com> FICTIION: Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides (Farrar, Straus & Giroux) DRAMA: Anna in the Tropics by Nilo Cruz HISTORY: An Army at Dawn: The War in North Africa, 1942-1943 by Rick Atkinson (Henry Holt and Company) BIOGRAPHY OR AUTOBIOGRAPHY Master of the Senate by Robert A. Caro (Alfred A. Knopf) POETRY: Moy Sand and Gravel by Paul Muldoon (Farrar, Straus & Giroux) GENERAL NON-FICTION: "A Problem From Hell:" America and the Age of Genocide by Samantha Power (Basic Books) MUSIC: On the Transmigration of Souls by John Adams (Boosey & Hawkes) Premiered by the New York Philharmonic on September 19, 2002 at Avery Fisher Hall. From antrobin at clipper.net Mon Apr 7 20:59:14 2003 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:59:14 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] "the other tradition" References: Message-ID: <015c01c2fd6a$406ad8a0$86361c40@Emily> Ashberyites (if any are out there): Does the phrase "the other tradition" appear in any poems by Ashbery? I know of his collection of essays with a similiar title, but does he use the phrase in his poetry? Thanks in advance, Tony From kellogg at duke.edu Mon Apr 7 21:30:48 2003 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 21:30:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "the other tradition" In-Reply-To: <015c01c2fd6a$406ad8a0$86361c40@Emily> References: <015c01c2fd6a$406ad8a0$86361c40@Emily> Message-ID: <40527253.1049751048@user-152-16-68-20.adsl.duke.edu> There's a poem by that title in HOUSEBOAT DAYS -- a superb poem, I think the second one in the book, beginning "One died, and the soul was taken / from the other in life." --On Monday, April 07, 2003 5:59 PM -0700 Anthony Robinson wrote: > Ashberyites (if any are out there): > > Does the phrase "the other tradition" appear in any poems by Ashbery? > I know of his collection of essays with a similiar title, but does he use > the phrase in his poetry? > > Thanks in advance, > Tony > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Apr 7 21:40:51 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 20:40:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "the other tradition" In-Reply-To: <40527253.1049751048@user-152-16-68-20.adsl.duke.edu> Message-ID: Ashbery's "The Other Tradition" is indeed the second poem in *Houseboat Days*, but the lines David K. quotes are from the first poem in the book, "Street Musicians." "The Other Tradition" begins as follows: They all came, some wore sentiments Emblazoned on T-shirts, proclaiming the lateness Of the hour, and indeed the sun slanted its rays Through branches of Norfolk Island pine as though Politely clearing its throat? ? John Ashbery, ?The Other Tradition? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > From: David Kellogg > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 21:30:48 -0400 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "the other tradition" > > There's a poem by that title in HOUSEBOAT DAYS -- a superb poem, I think > the second one in the book, beginning "One died, and the soul was taken / > from the other in life." > > --On Monday, April 07, 2003 5:59 PM -0700 Anthony Robinson > wrote: > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Apr 7 22:25:12 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 22:25:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: George Bradley Message-ID: <134.1de48469.2bc38d08@cs.com> In a message dated 4/7/2003 7:27:29 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > One shouldn't judge a book by a single poem...but > since Knopf is using this one (below) as its ad, I guess it's fair > to say it's plain awful: "sluicing astonished soil/off to the > deep disturbance of our ocean"? The sonnet is a form, > not an excuse. > Finnegan > > In a message dated 4/7/03 1:57:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com writes: > > >Subj: George Bradley > > Date: 4/7/03 1:57:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time > > From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com (knopfpoetry) > > To: JforJames at aol.com > > > > An April poem from a sonnet sequence about the changing seasons included > > in > >George Bradley's most recent collection, SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED. > > > > ************************************************* > > > > > > Millrace > > > > Each April's different: this one saw a spate > > Of rain increase the run-off from the snow > > To make the village millpond overflow > > Well-groomed banks and leap an unused gate > > Into the race, which had not felt the flood > > In fifty years. That's when the mill and wheel, > > Back then though insufficiently genteel, > > Were leveled and the stream shut up for good, > > Or so it seemed. But flood will out, commotion > > Run its course. I watched the water boil > > Through undergrowth, sluicing astonished soil > > Off toward the deep disturbance of our ocean, > > And so subside and next day leave no trace > > But mud and some erosion in the race. I guess that's supposed to be "thought insufficiently genteel." I seen worse than this here one. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Apr 7 22:27:01 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 22:27:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Muldoon wins Poetry Pulitzer Message-ID: <3f.1ae0f819.2bc38d75@cs.com> In a message dated 4/7/2003 7:40:35 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > HISTORY: An Army at Dawn: The War in North Africa, 1942-1943 by Rick > Atkinson > (Henry Holt and Company) A loud huzzah for this incomparably well researched book. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Apr 7 22:29:19 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 22:29:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "the other tradition" Message-ID: <15.e868c5a.2bc38dff@cs.com> In a message dated 4/7/2003 8:04:14 PM Central Standard Time, antrobin at clipper.net writes: > > Does the phrase "the other tradition" appear in any poems by Ashbery? > I know of his collection of essays with a similiar title, but does he use > the phrase in his poetry? I think he has a poem by this title in "Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Apr 7 22:29:43 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 22:29:43 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "the other tradition" Message-ID: <170.1cd6eb5c.2bc38e17@cs.com> In a message dated 4/7/2003 8:34:19 PM Central Standard Time, kellogg at duke.edu writes: > > There's a poem by that title in HOUSEBOAT DAYS -- a superb poem, I think > the second one in the book, beginning "One died, and the soul was taken / > from the other in life." > > --On Monday, April 07, 2003 5:59 PM -0700 Anthony Robinson > wrote: I stand corrected. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Apr 7 22:30:47 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 22:30:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "the other tradition" Message-ID: <104.2bf80170.2bc38e57@cs.com> In a message dated 4/7/2003 8:45:53 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > "The Other Tradition" begins as follows: > > They all came, some wore sentiments > Emblazoned on T-shirts, proclaiming the lateness > Of the hour, and indeed the sun slanted its rays > Through branches of Norfolk Island pine as though > Politely clearing its throat? > > ? John Ashbery, ?The Other Tradition? Marjorie Perloff spends a lot of time on this poem in The Poetics of Indeterminacy, if memory serves (and it ain't serving so well these days). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Apr 7 22:54:48 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN Message-ID: <20030408025448.123134072@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From bardo at optonline.net Mon Apr 7 23:40:34 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 23:40:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <20030408025448.123134072@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <02d001c2fd80$9d149c10$6d94c044@MULDER> Thanks for the update, Bob. Any word on how many expendable civilian ragheads we snuffed? Grrr. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "CobbCoStudioArts" To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > Marcus, Daniel, > > Latest news reports have said that Saddam Hussein and his two sons may now be dead from coaltion artillery strikes. > > Bob > > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > > --- "Marcus Bales" wrote: > >Daniel Zimmerman: > >> I agree that we planned and tried to enforce sanctions and at the > >> same time provide aid to the Iraqi people, but we did not get > >> enough support from enough nations to keep Iraq's borders from > >> becoming porous. As long as some people and countries can put > >> quick profits above long-term values without penalty, the conduct > >> of such a policy will require more aggressive diplomacy > >> and economic sanctions more costly than the profits they can gain > >> by trading with such regimes.<< > > > >You're talking about force, Daniel -- about compulsion. You're > >advocating that a policy of greater and greater penalties be applied > >to those who do not acquiesce with the policy you favor. Force is not > >always force of arms -- you're talking about force of economic > >sanctions, for example. In the end, though, in order to enforce those > >economic sanctions someone somewhere is going to have to stand > >between the willing traders with a gun and say "No" in order to > >enforce the very economic sanctions you want to apply. That's the > >application of force, Daniel, even if only by threat of force. > > > >Daniel Zimmerman: > >> Bush's Evangelical jihad may prove far more dangerous to America than Saddam > >> Hussein. The damage to our international relations will last long after his > >> administration, and it will require extraordinary efforts on the part of > >> future administrations to reestablish our credibility ....< > > > >Well, it depends on the kind of credibility you're talking about. > >Certainly it's possible that it will work out as you predict, if the > >Bush League fails to find and try Saddam and the rest of the > >prominent in his regime for war crimes, and convict and execute them. > >There is no doubt that the Iraqi people will not believe the US was > >only after Saddam unless the US gets Saddam and then lives up to its > >promises to establish a government, or governments, in the territory > >of Iraq that the people there can trust to be something other than > >oppressive and tyrannical. > > > >And the notion that the US will just not pull the trigger when a > >regional problem grows to the proportions of the Saddam problem is no > >longer credible, so the credibility of the US is enhanced in that > >way. > > > >The credibility of the US as a willing participant in a world > >government ruled by international laws and courts has certainly been > >degraded, though. > > > > > >Marcus Bales > > > >marcus at designerglass.com > >http://www.designerglass.com > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Tue Apr 8 00:14:11 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 00:14:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "the other tradition" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1049775251.3e924c93ab193@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> There's also the very wonderful ending to "And Ut Pictura Poesis is Her Name" in same collection which speaks of "other centers of communication." -m. Quoting David Graham : > Ashbery's "The Other Tradition" is indeed the second poem in *Houseboat > Days*, but the lines David K. quotes are from the first poem in the book, > "Street Musicians." > > "The Other Tradition" begins as follows: > > They all came, some wore sentiments > Emblazoned on T-shirts, proclaiming the lateness > Of the hour, and indeed the sun slanted its rays > Through branches of Norfolk Island pine as though > Politely clearing its throatS > > - John Ashbery, ?The Other Tradition1 > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > From: David Kellogg > > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 21:30:48 -0400 > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "the other tradition" > > > > There's a poem by that title in HOUSEBOAT DAYS -- a superb poem, I think > > the second one in the book, beginning "One died, and the soul was taken / > > from the other in life." > > > > --On Monday, April 07, 2003 5:59 PM -0700 Anthony Robinson > > wrote: > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From antrobin at clipper.net Tue Apr 8 00:17:55 2003 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 21:17:55 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] "the other tradition" References: <015c01c2fd6a$406ad8a0$86361c40@Emily> <40527253.1049751048@user-152-16-68-20.adsl.duke.edu> Message-ID: <019d01c2fd85$d52effa0$86361c40@Emily> Thanks to all-- As I mentioned in an earlier post, I'm designing an undergrad course in "experimental" writing...I'm still open to syllabus suggestions. I'm covering a fair amount of ground...starting with Emily D. and ending somewhere in the 21st century. Hell, I'll even teach some Mathemaku if Grumman provides the resources. So, again....if y'all can offer additional suggestions in poetry & criticism, I'd appreciate it. Best, Tony From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Tue Apr 8 00:28:06 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 00:28:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <3E9188A9.31901.4565A5@localhost> References: <200304060143.h361h3ST031291@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <3E9188A9.31901.4565A5@localhost> Message-ID: <1049776086.3e924fd61cd48@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Quoting Marcus Bales : > > "[Yvor] Winters reminds us that language carries weight beyond its > literal, denotative meaning, each word containing an affective charge > produced by the connotative penumbra surrounding it. When a poet > deploys words in a poem, he must be in control of the associative > power of language in order to convey reasonably and responsibly the > essence of his subject. He does this in a very particular way that > prose writers cannot manage as precisely. ?Writing, as it approaches > the looseness of prose and departs from the strictness of verse,? > Winters explains, ?tends to lose the capacity for fluid and highly > complex relationships between words; language, in short, reapproaches > its original stiffness and generality.? Political discourse can be > sly, subtle, filled with emotion and figurative language, but it lags > behind poems in the aesthetic attention paid to the interrelation of > words and to the fine-tuned calibrations of emotion they embody." > > Wherever you start rgarding art, in other words, you have to be aware > of what you're doing, and how and why you're doing it. But what seems > to be being put forward here is the notion that far from being > obligated to know what one is doing and why, art can be random or > nonsense just because someone claims with a straight face that their > work is a piece of art. > > Or do I misunderstand what you're saying? > > Marcus Marcus, yes I think you have misunderstood. A writer like Stein or James (or Dewey or Burke or Williams, pragmatists philosophically aligned against the New Criticism by and large - see Dewey's critique of such in ART AS EXPERIENCE) believe very strongly in the notion that a poem, say, is designed to do something for the poet and her readers. But none of them believe that they "must be in control of the associative power of language in order to convey reasonably and responsibly the essence of his subject," not a lick. And for good reason: they are to a person philosophically opposed to the discourses of control, reason, responsibility and essence, believing these, as they grew up through western metaphysics, to be anathema to "the strivings of men to achieve democracy" as Dewey put it (I think I've marched this out once before, no?) Beginning, really, with Emerson, the pragmatists simply recommend that one apply pluralism to the fabric of language itself, as, yes, an experiment to see what the langauge and the people might accomodate and even enjoy. It's been a tremendously successful experiment. -m. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 8 01:31:07 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 00:31:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman, Sullivan, Perloff, Gordon, Davis, Hess, Piombino, Mohammed interview Gudding Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030408003059.01281438@mail.ilstu.edu> http://heathensinheat.blogspot.com/ From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 8 08:43:36 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 08:43:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <009e01c2fd4d$21249570$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3E928BB8.11405.34E756@localhost> Daniel Zimmerman: > The policy of humanitarian aid coupled with sanctions did not originate > with me, as you have pointed out. It came about as a result of international > debate and compromise, the details of its implementation developing as a > result of that debate and the consequent modifications of that idea. I > merely suggested that we should have continued (and should return to) that > policy, but that its implementation obviously requires further strengthening > in order to make it work.<< What do you mean by "further strengthening", though? Are you willing to advocate an armed force standing between willing traders saying "No"? Daniel Zimmerman: > I maintain that international negotiation and cooperation alone can hope to > redefine those details and make them work.<< Well, I maintain that when you have willing traders and no armed force willing to stand between them to say "No", you don't have economic sanctions you have ineffectual hand-waving. Daniel Zimmerman: > International law has long recognized preemptive attack as a crime.<< This is wrong on the face of it. International law has recognized "preventive attack" but not "preemptive attack" as a bad thing. The problem is distinguishing between them. Daniel Zimmerman: > When > Japan attacked our fleet at Pearl Harbor preemptively, we regarded it as a > criminal act of war.<< The difference between preemptive and preventative attack is that in the former there is pretty clear evidence that the attack is pre- empting an imminent attack; but a preventative attack is one where there is no clear evidence that an attack is planned and imminent -- there's just evidence that there may be a threat at some unspecified time in the future. It is the latter that is seen to be a Really Bad Thing by international law. There is pretty long precedent for pre- emptive attacks in the face of imminent attack, and pre-emptive attacks are not viewed as being such Bad Things as preventative attacks. The problem with the Bush League justification for the second war in Iraq is that it looks like a preventative instead of a pre-emptive attack. Daniel Zimmerman: > Many nations now regard our attack on Iraq as illegal. > If we take such an action knowing that civilians will very probably die > (even if we don't "intend" that consequence and try to avoid it), if even > one civilian dies as a result, I believe we have committed criminally > negligent homicide, a crime which does not require proof of intent to > establish guilt.<< The question, though, is whether the US is making a pre-emptive or a preventative attack. If the former there is no grounds for your assertion that the US is prima facie guilty of war crimes. Daniel Zimmerman: > Our refusal to recognize various aspects of international > law and jurisdiction does not absolve us of that crime, nor does our > pathetic appeal to self-defense. We had the alternative not to attack, > however ineffective the means we employed before attacking had proven vis a > vis our goals.<< A crime requires a mens rea. For the same reason that killing in self-defense or in the defense of others under imminent threat is not murder, not a crime, it is not clear that the US is guilty prima facie of the crimes you allege. You call the claim of self-defense "pathetic" but that doesn't make it so. That there are alternatives that have proved ineffective is not a reason to prohibit stronger measures. The question remains about whether the US acted pre- emptively or preventatively. If the latter your case is stronger; if the former your case is almost non-existent. Daniel Zimmerman: > Of course I don't say that "the state must be put to death if even one > innocent person dies at the hands of the state's agents."...<< Well, then, the question about your bank and cops and robbers analogy is whether the US is in the role of the cops or the robbers; whether the bank is Iraq or the world community. You are trying to say that the US is the robbers and Iraq is the bank and the world community is like cops who're out-gunned by the robbers and so stand aside. But the US claims it is the cops, that Iraq is the robbers, and the world community is out-gunned by the robbers, and the US is stepping in to pre-empt the robbers' imminent attempts to rob the world community of its peace and wealth. > DZ: I do not want the Red Cross to "function as the US state and defense > departments." > I would like to see the Red Cross and any other agency that could offer help > to do so. That does not mean that it would have any more political function > than it now has.< And that does not mean it will have any more effectiveness than it now has. Daniel Zimmerman: > I understand the reluctance of that agency to function merely as an arm of a > "coalition of the willing." Therefore, I've proposed that much greater > diplomatic efforts take place in order to gain the support of a much larger > proportion of the nations of the world. If Iraq refuses such aid, it would > only condemn itself further and make the diplomatic and economic isolation > of that country even more justifiable.<< But without an armed force to stand between willing traders (and there are always willing traders -- that's how we get grey and black markets) you are proposing to simply burden the international aid agencies with unfunded and unenforcible mandates to do things that they neither want to nor are prepared to do. You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that if someone just says the magic words that that will make problems such as Iraq and North Korea go away. But NK has been diplomatically and economically isolated for decades, frantically trying to build bombs big enough with which to blackmail the world. It's not a simple case that by isolating the bad guys they see the light and become good guys. Daniel Zimmerman: > Well, "stronger non-martial efforts" might include revocation of > most-favored nation status for countries trading with a quarantined regime > like Saddam's, suspension of foreign aid to such countries, suspension of > cultural exchanges and various legations, naval and air blockade of Iraq > (violators attacking the blockade and could be met with legitimate defensive > force), etc.<< So you ARE advocating putting an armed force between willing traders? But are you aware that a blockade is an act of war no different from bombing in the eyes of the international law? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 8 08:23:49 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:23:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] If Saddam is dead Message-ID: does he qualify for martyrdom? Will he expect to find forty virgins awaiting him in Heaven? Note: A discussion recently on NWI/CBC's *Hot Type* featured a number of Arabic-speaking North Americans, one of whom pointed out that the Arabic word *hur* (I think it was) is often taken to mean "virgin" but may have been intended to mean "white grape." Would Saddam be content with forty white grapes in lieu of forty virgins? If not, what then? Hal ?Quien es m?s macho--Saddam Hussein o George W. Bush? Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 8 08:23:51 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:23:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <20030408025448.123134072@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: { Marcus, Daniel, { { Latest news reports have said that Saddam Hussein and his two sons may now be dead from coaltion artillery strikes. { { Bob And they might have been hit by the coalition as well. Hal ?Quien es m?s macho--Saddam Hussein o George W. Bush? Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 8 10:07:26 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 10:07:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <1049776086.3e924fd61cd48@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <3E9188A9.31901.4565A5@localhost> Message-ID: <3E929F5E.12526.81A7B1@localhost> Mike Magee: > ... A writer like Stein or James (or > Dewey or Burke or Williams, pragmatists philosophically aligned against the New > Criticism by and large - see Dewey's critique of such in ART AS EXPERIENCE) > believe very strongly in the notion that a poem, say, is designed to do > something for the poet and her readers. But none of them believe that they > "must be in control of the associative power of language in order to convey > reasonably and responsibly the essence of his subject," not a lick.<< John Dewey from Art As Experience: "When artistic objects are separated from both conditions of origin and operation in experience, a wall is built around them that renders almost opaque their general significance, with which esthetic theory deals. Art is remitted to a separate realm, where it is cut off from that association with the materials and aims of every other form of human effort, undergoing, and achievement. A primary task is thus imposed upon one who undertakes to write upon the philosophy of the arts. This task is to restore continuity between the refined and intensified forms of experience which are works of art and everyday events, doings, and sufferings that are universally recognized to constitute experience." This looks pretty different from your claim for Dewey's purpose. Dewey does not seem to argue for a flaccid lack of excellence pursued by incapable ignoramuses -- far from it. He seems to be arguing against some critical notions of how to look at art, not against the notion that the artist "must be in control of the associative power of language in order to convey reasonably and responsibly the essence of his subject." Mike Magee: > And for > good reason: they are to a person philosophically opposed to the discourses of > control, reason, responsibility and essence, believing these, as they grew up > through western metaphysics, to be anathema to "the strivings of men to achieve > democracy" as Dewey put it ...<< I think this is a mis-reading of Dewey, at least. Nothing that I've seen in Dewey's practice or theory argues against "control, reason, responsibility". To the contrary, his life and work are exemplars of control, reason, and responsibility, and his theories call for control, reason, and responsibility to be universal among all humans so that they can better apprciate and enjoy the world around them that is "is neither individual nor universal, sensuous nor rational." But by "neither this nor that" Dewey is not saying that there is no rationality and no sensuousness, no individuality and no universality -- he is saying that there is neither alone without the other. To claim that Dewey thinks that reason, control, and responsibility are anathema to art or to life is to misread Dewey fundamentally. John Dewey, Art As Experience: "In art as an experience, actuality and possibility or ideality, the new and the old, objective material and personal response, the individual and the universal, surface and depth, sense and meaning are integrated in an experience in which they are all transfigured from the significance that belongs to them when isolated in reflection. "Nature," says Goethe, "has neither kernel nor shell." Only in esthetic experience is this statement completely true. Of art as experience it is also true that nature has neither subjective nor objective being; is neither individual nor universal, sensuous nor rational." Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bardo at optonline.net Tue Apr 8 10:25:33 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 10:25:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <3E928BB8.11405.34E756@localhost> Message-ID: <007e01c2fdda$b7e43780$6d94c044@MULDER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 8:43 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > Daniel Zimmerman: > > The policy of humanitarian aid coupled with sanctions did not originate > > with me, as you have pointed out. It came about as a result of international > > debate and compromise, the details of its implementation developing as a > > result of that debate and the consequent modifications of that idea. I > > merely suggested that we should have continued (and should return to) that > > policy, but that its implementation obviously requires further strengthening > > in order to make it work.<< > > What do you mean by "further strengthening", though? Are you willing > to advocate an armed force standing between willing traders saying > "No"? DZ: If the vast majority of member states in the UN agree to a blockade, yes. Does that constitute "an act of war no different from bombing in the eyes of the international law," as you say below? Perhaps, but this kind of "act of war" entails no necessary violence, whereas an approach like "shock and awe" undeniable does. In a blockade, those who decide to put money above justice invite opposition, but they don't have to do that. They could instead wait for the regime to topple, then trade legitimately with a new regime. Kennedy's (if I remember correctly, unilateral) blockade of Cuba achieved its goal of removing Soviet missiles; I think it would have had far greater authority and more extensive effect had dozens of nations from both hemispheres sent ships to participate. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > I maintain that international negotiation and cooperation alone can hope to > > redefine those details and make them work.<< > > Well, I maintain that when you have willing traders and no armed > force willing to stand between them to say "No", you don't have > economic sanctions you have ineffectual hand-waving. > DZ: Right. > Daniel Zimmerman: > > International law has long recognized preemptive attack as a crime.<< > > This is wrong on the face of it. International law has recognized > "preventive attack" but not "preemptive attack" as a bad thing. The > problem is distinguishing between them. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > When > > Japan attacked our fleet at Pearl Harbor preemptively, we regarded it as a > > criminal act of war.<< > > The difference between preemptive and preventative attack is that in > the former there is pretty clear evidence that the attack is pre- > empting an imminent attack; but a preventative attack is one where > there is no clear evidence that an attack is planned and imminent -- > there's just evidence that there may be a threat at some unspecified > time in the future. It is the latter that is seen to be a Really Bad > Thing by international law. There is pretty long precedent for pre- > emptive attacks in the face of imminent attack, and pre-emptive > attacks are not viewed as being such Bad Things as preventative > attacks. > > The problem with the Bush League justification for the second war in > Iraq is that it looks like a preventative instead of a pre-emptive > attack. DZ: Insofar as either kind of attack leaves people dead, the difference seems merely semantic. I used the term "preemptive" because I've heard the Bushies use it-perhaps incorrectly, and perhaps deliberately to blur further the already fuzzy distinction between those terms. When I advocate blockade, I do so to avoid either kind of "attack," since both seem heinous to me. A blockade resembles a patriot missile battery, a purely defensive modality used only as a response to an attack by the other guys-a cheap and relatively effective version of Reagan's Star Wars defense proposal which he seems to have advocated for good motives. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > Many nations now regard our attack on Iraq as illegal. > > If we take such an action knowing that civilians will very probably die > > (even if we don't "intend" that consequence and try to avoid it), if even > > one civilian dies as a result, I believe we have committed criminally > > negligent homicide, a crime which does not require proof of intent to > > establish guilt.<< > > The question, though, is whether the US is making a pre-emptive or a > preventative attack. If the former there is no grounds for your > assertion that the US is prima facie guilty of war crimes. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > Our refusal to recognize various aspects of international > > law and jurisdiction does not absolve us of that crime, nor does our > > pathetic appeal to self-defense. We had the alternative not to attack, > > however ineffective the means we employed before attacking had proven vis a > > vis our goals.<< > > A crime requires a mens rea. For the same reason that killing in > self-defense or in the defense of others under imminent threat is not > murder, not a crime, it is not clear that the US is guilty prima > facie of the crimes you allege. You call the claim of self-defense > "pathetic" but that doesn't make it so. That there are alternatives > that have proved ineffective is not a reason to prohibit stronger > measures. The question remains about whether the US acted pre- > emptively or preventatively. If the latter your case is stronger; if > the former your case is almost non-existent. DZ: What I said about that difference above I believe vitiates the distinction. As for blockade, I think that the principle "the best offense is a good defense" applies here. The idea of attacking in self-defense against a threat of attack differs from attacking to defend against an actual attack. If we want to justify the former, we could come up with a number of countries that would make excellent candidates to attack (but few of which sit atop a sea of oil). If we do not attack such countries, does that make us culpable of abetting them in the oppression of their people and in their threats to their neighbors? The Wolfowitz-Rumsfield-Cheney wing seems poised to make that case. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > Of course I don't say that "the state must be put to death if even one > > innocent person dies at the hands of the state's agents."...<< > > Well, then, the question about your bank and cops and robbers analogy > is whether the US is in the role of the cops or the robbers; whether > the bank is Iraq or the world community. You are trying to say that > the US is the robbers and Iraq is the bank and the world community is > like cops who're out-gunned by the robbers and so stand aside. > > But the US claims it is the cops, that Iraq is the robbers, and the > world community is out-gunned by the robbers, and the US is stepping > in to pre-empt the robbers' imminent attempts to rob the world > community of its peace and wealth. DZ: As cops, we took back Kuwait, which we claimed Iraq had robbed. If we claim the role of cops now, we have little evidence that Iraq has tried to "rob the world community of its peace and wealth." On the other hand, ample evidence exists of our interest in unimpeded access to Iraqi oil (though we seem the greatest impeders at the moment). I used the bank robber analogy merely to indicate that an illegal act by our government (the bank robber) implicates us (drivers of the getaway car who make the robbery possible). You criticize the analogy as if I had claimed it as authentic at every level of the Great Chain of Being, which I didn't do (another straw man on your part). I could as easily have used a more generic example of a criminal and his abettors, and in retrospect I wish I had! > > > DZ: I do not want the Red Cross to "function as the US state and defense > > departments." > > I would like to see the Red Cross and any other agency that could offer help > > to do so. That does not mean that it would have any more political function > > than it now has.< > > And that does not mean it will have any more effectiveness than it > now has. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > I understand the reluctance of that agency to function merely as an arm of a > > "coalition of the willing." Therefore, I've proposed that much greater > > diplomatic efforts take place in order to gain the support of a much larger > > proportion of the nations of the world. If Iraq refuses such aid, it would > > only condemn itself further and make the diplomatic and economic isolation > > of that country even more justifiable.<< > > But without an armed force to stand between willing traders (and > there are always willing traders -- that's how we get grey and black > markets) you are proposing to simply burden the international aid > agencies with unfunded and unenforcible mandates to do things that > they neither want to nor are prepared to do. You seem to be laboring > under the misapprehension that if someone just says the magic words > that that will make problems such as Iraq and North Korea go away. > But NK has been diplomatically and economically isolated for decades, > frantically trying to build bombs big enough with which to blackmail > the world. It's not a simple case that by isolating the bad guys they > see the light and become good guys. > > Daniel Zimmerman: > > Well, "stronger non-martial efforts" might include revocation of > > most-favored nation status for countries trading with a quarantined regime > > like Saddam's, suspension of foreign aid to such countries, suspension of > > cultural exchanges and various legations, naval and air blockade of Iraq > > (violators attacking the blockade and could be met with legitimate defensive > > force), etc.<< > > So you ARE advocating putting an armed force between willing traders? > But are you aware that a blockade is an act of war no different from > bombing in the eyes of the international law? > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Tue Apr 8 10:37:30 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:37:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <3E929F5E.12526.81A7B1@localhost> References: <3E9188A9.31901.4565A5@localhost> <3E929F5E.12526.81A7B1@localhost> Message-ID: <1049812650.3e92deaa8743a@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Marcus, I've got to run to class right now but just quickly, you're dead wrong about Dewey -- because you misread how he construes experience. I realize this may devolve into dueling quotes but, just as a place to start here are a couple to consider: Dewey, first of all, claims "to deny that philosophy is in any sense whatever a form of knowledge" and argues "that we should return to the original and etymological sense of the word, and recognize that philosophy is a form of desire, of effort at action" (Character & Events 2:843). Taking him at his word, then, consider these two statements on Man and on a democratic philosophy: "A philosophy animated, be it consciously or unconsciously, by the strivings of men to achieve democracy will construe liberty as meaning a universe in which there is real uncertainty and contingency, a world which is not all in, and never will be, a world which in some respect is incomplete and in the making, and in these respects may be made this way or that according as men judge, prize, love and labor...a genuine field of novelty, of real and unpredictable increments to existence, a field for experimentation and invention" (2:851) and "Man excels in complexity and minuteness of differentiations. This very fact constitutes the necessity for many more comprehensive and exact relationships among the constituents of his being. Important as are the distinctions and relations thus made possible, the story does not end here. There are more opportunities for resistance and tension, more drafts upon experience and invention, and therefor more novelty in action, greater range and depth of insight and increase of poignancy of feeling. As an organism increases in complexity, the rhythms of struggle and consummation in its relation to its environment are varied and prolonged, and they come to include within themselves an endless variety of subrhythms. The designs of living are widened and enriched. Fulfillment is more massive and more subtly shaded...The process of organic life is variation...Demand for variety is the manifestation of the fact that being alive we seek to live, until we are cowed by fear or dulled by routine. The need of life itself pushes out into the unknown" (AE 23, 168). "The artist," Dewey writes, "is a born experimenter...because he has to express an intensely individualized experience through means and materials that belong to the common public world...Only becuase the artist operates experimentally does he open new aspects and qualities in familiar scenes and objects" (AE 144) Now look at what he has to say about the New Criticism and Eliot: "Without any special competency in philosophic thought, they are ready to pronounce ex cathedra judgements, because they are comitted to some conceptio of the relation of man to the universe that flourished in some past epoch. They reaged its restoration as essential to the redemption of society from its present evil state" (AE 319). Of course, I don't doubt that you can go through Dewey's corpus and fine sentences which would seem to contradict the general trend of his work - as Emerson says, "books belong to the eyes that see them" - but if I were you I'd think twice about hanging your hat on Dewey. Eliot's clearly your man, for better or worse. Eliot's mentor was of course William James's Harvard nemesis F.H. Bradley, and on and on it goes. There's a good reason, a very good reason, that Dewey's champions in the poetry world are WC Williams and Charles Olson and not T.S. Eliot and Richard Wilbur. -m. Quoting Marcus Bales : > Mike Magee: > > ... A writer like Stein or James (or > > Dewey or Burke or Williams, pragmatists philosophically aligned against the > New > > Criticism by and large - see Dewey's critique of such in ART AS EXPERIENCE) > > > believe very strongly in the notion that a poem, say, is designed to do > > something for the poet and her readers. But none of them believe that they > > > "must be in control of the associative power of language in order to convey > > > reasonably and responsibly the essence of his subject," not a lick.<< > > John Dewey from Art As Experience: > "When artistic objects are separated from both conditions of origin > and operation in experience, a wall is built around them that renders > almost opaque their general significance, with which esthetic theory > deals. Art is remitted to a separate realm, where it is cut off from > that association with the materials and aims of every other form of > human effort, undergoing, and achievement. A primary task is thus > imposed upon one who undertakes to write upon the philosophy of the > arts. This task is to restore continuity between the refined and > intensified forms of experience which are works of art and everyday > events, doings, and sufferings that are universally recognized to > constitute experience." > > This looks pretty different from your claim for Dewey's purpose. > Dewey does not seem to argue for a flaccid lack of excellence pursued > by incapable ignoramuses -- far from it. He seems to be arguing > against some critical notions of how to look at art, not against the > notion that the artist "must be in control of the associative power > of language in order to convey reasonably and responsibly the essence > of his subject." > > Mike Magee: > > And for > > good reason: they are to a person philosophically opposed to the discourses > of > > control, reason, responsibility and essence, believing these, as they grew > up > > through western metaphysics, to be anathema to "the strivings of men to > achieve > > democracy" as Dewey put it ...<< > > I think this is a mis-reading of Dewey, at least. Nothing that I've > seen in Dewey's practice or theory argues against "control, reason, > responsibility". To the contrary, his life and work are exemplars of > control, reason, and responsibility, and his theories call for > control, reason, and responsibility to be universal among all humans > so that they can better apprciate and enjoy the world around them > that is "is neither individual nor universal, sensuous nor rational." > > But by "neither this nor that" Dewey is not saying that there is no > rationality and no sensuousness, no individuality and no universality > -- he is saying that there is neither alone without the other. To > claim that Dewey thinks that reason, control, and responsibility are > anathema to art or to life is to misread Dewey fundamentally. > > John Dewey, Art As Experience: > "In art as an experience, actuality and possibility or ideality, the > new and the old, objective material and personal response, the > individual and the universal, surface and depth, sense and meaning > are integrated in an experience in which they are all transfigured > from the significance that belongs to them when isolated in > reflection. "Nature," says Goethe, "has neither kernel nor shell." > Only in esthetic experience is this statement completely true. Of art > as experience it is also true that nature has neither subjective nor > objective being; is neither individual nor universal, sensuous nor > rational." > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From daisyf1 at juno.com Tue Apr 8 10:37:53 2003 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 10:37:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN Message-ID: <20030408.103754.-511027.0.daisyf1@juno.com> Dan--The website www.iraqbodycount.net, which makes estimates of minimum and maximum civilian deaths based on a variety of western and eastern mainstream media outlets says a minimum of 900 and a maximum of 1073 have been killed based on current available info. The site is updated at least daily. Daisy > Thanks for the update, Bob. > Any word on how many expendable civilian ragheads we snuffed? > > Grrr. > Dan From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 8 10:52:00 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 10:52:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN Message-ID: <6101915.1049813520461.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> In other words, coalition efforts to minimize civilian deaths have been remarkably successful--which is not to say that any civilian death is cause for anything but mourning and renewed determination to avoid such deaths in the future. And no one involved, except opponents to the war out to demonize others, thinks in terms of "expendable civilian ragheads." On Tuesday, April 08, 2003, at 10:37AM, Daisy Fried wrote: >Dan--The website www.iraqbodycount.net, which makes estimates of minimum >and maximum civilian deaths based on a variety of western and eastern >mainstream media outlets says a minimum of 900 and a maximum of 1073 have >been killed based on current available info. The site is updated at least >daily. Daisy > >> Thanks for the update, Bob. >> Any word on how many expendable civilian ragheads we snuffed? >> >> Grrr. >> Dan > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Tue Apr 8 10:58:43 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 03 10:58:43 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan/Fairchild Message-ID: <200304081459.h38Ex4m6194820@westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com> Logan's lame, slippery response to Fairchild's demonstration of Logan's sloppy reading of his book demonstrates Logan's contempt for his readers' intelligence, as well as just about all the poetry he reviews. I mean, really, critics mean "sentimental" when they say "unsentimental?" It does the New Criterion no credit to feature Logan's reviews. Richard From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 8 11:00:49 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 11:00:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: <3120352.1049814049925.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Tuesday, April 08, 2003, at 10:37AM, wrote: >better or worse. Eliot's mentor was of course William James's Harvard nemesis >F.H. Bradley, and on and on it goes. There's a good reason, a very good >reason, that Dewey's champions in the poetry world are WC Williams and Charles >Olson and not T.S. Eliot and Richard Wilbur. > >-m. > That last--Eliot and Wilbur--is a fairly bizarre linkage. Michael From bardo at optonline.net Tue Apr 8 11:25:12 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 11:25:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <6101915.1049813520461.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <00b901c2fde3$0ce8c4a0$6d94c044@MULDER> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Snider" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 10:52 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > In other words, coalition efforts to minimize civilian deaths have been remarkably successful--which is not to say that any civilian death is cause for anything but mourning and renewed determination to avoid such deaths in the future. > > And no one involved, except opponents to the war out to demonize others, thinks in terms of "expendable civilian ragheads." DZ: Mike, you sound like Pangloss! Remarkably successful? Let's not strain ourselves while patting our own backs. With regard to my sardonic reference to "expendable civilian ragheads," from conversations I've had with lots of people around the country, and from listening to my students, and from listening to right-wing talk shows, I'll bet many of those "involved"--not just some of the soldiers, but some of the armchair general supporters of the war, redneck and otherwise--think in even less flattering terms about Iraqi civilians, as attacks on Muslim-looking people here after 9-11 suggest (a racist in Texas, for example, killed the uncle of one of my Indian students, mistaking him for a Muslim). The widespread Muslim misperception of America as a country of infidels determined to wage war on Islam, I think, has a parallel here among the chronically uninformed and uninterested that the lives of, in this case, Iraqis just don't matter as much as the lives of Americans. Even Madeline Albright registered that attitude in her astonishing statement that she found the death of 500,000 Iraqi children due to our "sanctions" against Saddam's regime "an acceptable price"! I feel no need to demonize those who flaunt their own horns, hooves and pointy tails. > > On Tuesday, April 08, 2003, at 10:37AM, Daisy Fried wrote: > > >Dan--The website www.iraqbodycount.net, which makes estimates of minimum > >and maximum civilian deaths based on a variety of western and eastern > >mainstream media outlets says a minimum of 900 and a maximum of 1073 have > >been killed based on current available info. The site is updated at least > >daily. Daisy > > > >> Thanks for the update, Bob. > >> Any word on how many expendable civilian ragheads we snuffed? > >> > >> Grrr. > >> Dan > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu Mon Apr 7 23:19:34 2003 From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 22:19:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons Message-ID: Tender Buttons Shock & Awe, Zulu Baby. Shock & Awe. [Here I am trapped in a country where nobody speaks English. My whole syntax breaks down.] Guru Baby, Shaw & Auk, Screw You Baby, Mau Mau Wacka Woo [The consonants start transposing themselves until language becomes a movement of letters transforming themselves into other words on the page. Or is this really a regression to Dada?] Take celery, for example. Sell her me, my cell ornery celery. What a stalk! Fibrous shock & awe! With a trawl up the stalk, cell or be celery. Drift my get? Dr. Mike --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Tue Apr 8 13:54:57 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:54:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <3120352.1049814049925.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> References: <3120352.1049814049925.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <1049824497.3e930cf16b73e@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Quoting Michael Snider : >better or worse. Eliot's mentor was of course William James's Harvard >nemesis F.H. Bradley, and on and on it goes. There's a good reason, a very >good reason, that Dewey's champions in the poetry world are WC Williams and >Charles Olson and not T.S. Eliot and Richard Wilbur. > > > >-m. > > > > That last--Eliot and Wilbur--is a fairly bizarre linkage. > > Michael Michael, I should have more properly said "or" - meaning Eliot's verse or Wilbur's verse could both be read as analogous to or compatible with the philosophy of F.H. Bradley. That said, you'd have to say that Wilbur and his generation of formalists were steeped in Eliot and given cover by the example of say the Sweeney poems, Mr. Eliot's Sunday Morning Service, etc? Not to open a whole nuther front in this argument! But it's interesting that Lowell, for instance, insists that the formal change which became Life Studies was predicated on his reading of Williams's Paterson, which he luvvved. He sent a copy of LS to Williams who praised it effusively. A good example of how these lines are sometimes porous (though the so-called New-American Poets never embraced Lowell, many did keep their eye on him, read with him, etc including Duncan, O'Hara and Ginsberg (I have an, I think, interesting story about Ginsberg & Lowell if anyone's curious). -m. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Apr 8 14:46:53 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN Message-ID: <20030408184653.00342CF61@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 8 16:31:26 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:31:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan/Fairchild References: <200304081459.h38Ex4m6194820@westrelay02.boulder.ibm.com> Message-ID: <007101c2fe0d$d5777180$3099fea9@j1c1k6> > Logan's lame, slippery response to Fairchild's > demonstration of Logan's sloppy reading of > his book demonstrates Logan's contempt for his > readers' intelligence, as well as just about > all the poetry he reviews. I mean, really, > critics mean "sentimental" when they say "unsentimental?" > > It does the New Criterion no credit to feature > Logan's reviews. > > Richard Well, they're better than John Simon's. --Bob G. From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 8 17:33:23 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:33:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <00b901c2fde3$0ce8c4a0$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: On Tuesday, April 8, 2003, at 11:25 AM, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Snider" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 10:52 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > > >> In other words, coalition efforts to minimize civilian deaths have >> been > remarkably successful--which is not to say that any civilian death is > cause > for anything but mourning and renewed determination to avoid such > deaths in > the future. >> >> And no one involved, except opponents to the war out to demonize >> others, > thinks in terms of "expendable civilian ragheads." > > DZ: Mike, you sound like Pangloss! Remarkably successful? Let's not > strain > ourselves while patting our own backs. Compare the numbers to the what happened in Afghanistan, and in Kosovo, and compare those numbers to what has happened in previous wars. Consider the size of the military effort, and that much of it occurred in urban areas, and the numbers, SO FAR, are astonishingly low. No armed force in history has been anywhere near as successful in avoiding civilian deaths. There's nothing Panglossian about it. > With regard to my sardonic reference > to "expendable civilian ragheads," from conversations I've had with > lots of > people around the country, and from listening to my students, and from > listening to right-wing talk shows, I'll bet many of those > "involved"--not > just some of the soldiers, but some of the armchair general supporters > of > the war, redneck and otherwise--think in even less flattering terms > about > Iraqi civilians, as attacks on Muslim-looking people here after 9-11 > suggest > (a racist in Texas, for example, killed the uncle of one of my Indian > students, mistaking him for a Muslim). The widespread Muslim > misperception > of America as a country of infidels determined to wage war on Islam, I > think, has a parallel here among the chronically uninformed and > uninterested > that the lives of, in this case, Iraqis just don't matter as much as > the > lives of Americans. There are racists in the US; certainly there are racists among the troops. It is unlikely that racism has anything to do with the planning of this war. For the political and military leaders of the coalition, avoiding civilian deaths as much as possible is not just human fellow feeling--though I'm certain there is a good deal of that for many of those involved--but a political necessity. Given that we are fighting (and I know you don't accept we should be), they've worked hard at avoiding civilian deaths, and have succeeded to a degree never thought possible before. > Even Madeline Albright registered that attitude in her > astonishing statement that she found the death of 500,000 Iraqi > children due > to our "sanctions" against Saddam's regime "an acceptable price"! I > feel no > need to demonize those who flaunt their own horns, hooves and pointy > tails. The price was set by Saddam Hussein. All he had to do was cooperate with the first round of inspections and stop attempts to persecute Kurds and Shiites, and the sanctions would have been lifted. The UN and the US do not share in the blame for deaths due to sanctions--that rests solely with Hussein, whose actions ensured the sanctions continue and who diverted what food and money was available for his palaces and his armies. From mandolin at mac.com Tue Apr 8 17:42:24 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:42:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tuesday, April 8, 2003, at 05:33 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > The UN and the US do not share in the blame for deaths due to > sanctions--that rests solely with Hussein, whose actions ensured the > sanctions continue and who diverted what food and money was available > for his palaces and his armies. Perhaps the UN and the US--though mostly the UN--do share some of the blame because there was no credible threat of action to enforce the inspections and sanctions. At least the US and UK, after their initial standoff, stopped Saddam's slaughter in the no fly zones. From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Tue Apr 8 18:25:07 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 03 18:25:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan/Fairchild Message-ID: <200304082225.h38MPPfV165868@northrelay04.pok.ibm.com> Bob G. wrote: >>Well, [Logan's reviews] are better than John Simon's. I don't think so. Granted, I haven't seen much of Simon's writing for a cuppla' decades or so, but at least Simon is upfront with his nastiness. Also, IMO, Simon is a ton smarter than Logan. Richard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 8 18:38:10 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:38:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan/Fairchild References: <200304082225.h38MPPfV165868@northrelay04.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <002e01c2fe1f$890bfa20$403cfea9@j1c1k6> > Bob G. wrote: > >>Well, [Logan's reviews] are better than John Simon's. > > I don't think so. Granted, I haven't seen much of > Simon's writing for a cuppla' decades or so, but at > least Simon is upfront with his nastiness. Also, > IMO, Simon is a ton smarter than Logan. Not about poetry. I can't remember much of his poetry reviews now, but do remember that I felt he spent way too much time on condemning what he took to be grammatical solecisms. He's excessively interested in metrical purity, etc., too. My impression is that he really knows just about nothing about poetry. I remember once when he decided someone who had been called a poet was not because the person was not listed as a member of PEN, and a few other like organizations. Logan does know a little about a narrow band of poetry. --Bob G. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 9 08:33:20 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 07:33:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Americans Target & Kill Journalists from Al-Jazeera & Reuters, Again Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030409073238.0123be30@mail.ilstu.edu> this via Aaron Vidaver on Buffalo Poetics >Fury at US as attacks kill three journalists >Al-Jazeera quits Iraq as Americans accused over deaths >Suzanne Goldenberg in Baghdad, Rory McCarthy in Doha, >Jonathan Steele in Amman and Brian Whitaker >Wednesday April 9, 2003 >The Guardian >http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,932809,00.html > > >The Arab satellite television channel al-Jazeera is to >pull its reporters out of Iraq after one of them was >killed during a US air raid on Baghdad. From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 9 09:25:27 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:25:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Americans Target & Kill Journalists from Al-Jazeera & Reuters, Again In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030409073238.0123be30@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3E93E707.13668.1515B7@localhost> On 9 Apr 2003 at 7:33, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > >Fury at US as attacks kill three journalists > >Al-Jazeera quits Iraq as Americans accused over deaths > >Suzanne Goldenberg in Baghdad, Rory McCarthy in Doha, > >Jonathan Steele in Amman and Brian Whitaker > >Wednesday April 9, 2003 > >The Guardian > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,932809,00.html Do you really believe the accusation that US troops are targeting journalists? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 9 09:25:27 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:25:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons In-Reply-To: <1049812650.3e92deaa8743a@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <3E929F5E.12526.81A7B1@localhost> Message-ID: <3E93E707.28766.1514AD@localhost> > Marcus, I've got to run to class right now but just quickly, you're dead wrong > about Dewey -- because you misread how he construes experience. I realize this > may devolve into dueling quotes but, just as a place to start here are a couple > to consider: Sorry, I had a dayful of appointments and couldn't get back to you, but denying that philosophy is a form of knowledge is not to deny control, reason, and responsibility. The man's life is a testament to control, reason, and responsibility, and so is his writing and thought. To hold that Dewey's position is to oppose control, reason, and, and responsibility is like holding that a computer chip is opposed to silicon: his life, work, and thought are made up of control, reason, and responsibility. The position you seem to think he takes with regard to art as experience is a calculated one -- controlled, reasonable, and responsible -- in reaction to a particular mode of response to and creation of art that Dewey holds is deadening rather than quickening. But the idea that Dewey's position is that the artist need have none of control, reason, or responsibility is absurd. Magee quoting Dewey: > "A philosophy animated, be it consciously or unconsciously, by the strivings of > men to achieve democracy will construe liberty as meaning a universe in which > there is real uncertainty and contingency, a world which is not all in, and > never will be, a world which in some respect is incomplete and in the making, > and in these respects may be made this way or that according as men judge, > prize, love and labor...a genuine field of novelty, of real and unpredictable > increments to existence, a field for experimentation and invention" (2:851)<< None of which argues that artists ought to throw over control, reason, or responsibility in favor of slack randomness. The very terms in which he puts this, "...in the MAKING ... may be MADE this way or that according as men prize, love, and labor ..." eviscerates the notion that Dewey's position is one of abandoning control, reason, or responsibility. He is talking about directed efforts within an overarching theory of making meaning my MAKING meaning. He doesn't say we merely find meaning in random collations, or in congeries of images, or in heaps of words. Magee quoting Dewey: > " ...As an organism increases in > complexity, the rhythms of struggle and consummation in its relation to its > environment are varied and prolonged, and they come to include within > themselves an endless variety of subrhythms. The designs of living are widened > and enriched. Fulfillment is more massive and more subtly shaded...The process > of organic life is variation...Demand for variety is the manifestation of the > fact that being alive we seek to live, until we are cowed by fear or dulled by > routine. The need of life itself pushes out into the unknown" (AE 23, 168).<< You might as well argue that Dewey was promoting and advocating free love from this: promoting and advocating the destruction of all institutions, of marriage, of government, of art, of everything -- argue that Dewey was a wild-eyed anarcho-radical devoted to the blind and undirected pursuit of pure variety as to argue that this passage shows that Dewey was arguing for an art that lacks control, reason, or responsibility. Ripped from the context of Dewey's life and thought this passage might be used to argue that we ought not keep our promises or support our children because to do either would be to become mired in dull routine. Are you really willing to say that Dewey was a man who argued for that kind of view of life? Magee quoting Dewey: > "The artist," Dewey writes, "is a born experimenter...because he has to express > an intensely individualized experience through means and materials that belong > to the common public world...Only because the artist operates experimentally > does he open new aspects and qualities in familiar scenes and objects" (AE 144) Dewey does not argue that the artist's expression has to be without control, reason, or responsibility, though, nor that "new aspects and qualities in familiar scenes and objects" are to be presented without control, reason, or responsibility. The "means and materials that belong to the common public world", in fact, argues strongly that Dewey's position is one of advocating control, reason, and responsibility in expression of those new aspects and qualities -- because the "common public world" has little interest in or time for the wilder-eyed varieties of "means and materials". Magee quoting Dewey: > Now look at what he has to say about the New Criticism and Eliot: > "Without any special competency in philosophic thought, they are > ready to pronounce ex cathedra judgements, because they are > comitted to some conceptio of the relation of man to the universe > that flourished in some past epoch. They reaged its > restoration as essential to the redemption of society from its > present evil state" (AE 319).<< This sounds just like a condemnation of the notions of the most contemporary of artists, those who are most committed to the notion that randomness is significant and carelessness is art. It could be a condemnation of any group that condemned control, reason, and responsibility in the contemporary world, who sought solace in the dogmatism of an ideology. But there is a difference between the dogmatism of an ideology and the flexible pursuit of significance by the means of art through control, reason, and responsibility. Your quotations are simply not persuasive that Dewey, at least, was an advocate of abandoning control, reason, and responsibility. His whole method of being and writing refutes the notion that he regarded control, reason, and responsibility as accoutrements to be abandoned in favor of randomness and carelessness. Magee: > Of course, I don't doubt that you can go through Dewey's corpus and fine > sentences which would seem to contradict the general trend of his work - as > Emerson says, "books belong to the eyes that see them" - but if I were you I'd > think twice about hanging your hat on Dewey. Eliot's clearly your man, for > better or worse. Eliot's mentor was of course William James's Harvard nemesis > F.H. Bradley, and on and on it goes. There's a good reason, a very good > reason, that Dewey's champions in the poetry world are WC Williams and Charles > Olson and not T.S. Eliot and Richard Wilbur.<< Well, as you quote, books belong to the eyes that see them. I think WC Williams and Charles Olson got the wrong things out of Dewey -- and if you are right in saying they got an authority in Dewey to appeal to in advocating randomness and carelessness instead of control, reason, and responsibility as among the foundations of art, then I think they are simply wrong about Dewey's thought and work. Holding someone such as Dewey out as an advocate of abandoning control, reason, and responsibility, is like holding someone such as Prince Kropotkin out as an advocate of fascism -- it's just too absurd. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From mandolin at mac.com Wed Apr 9 09:32:28 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:32:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Americans Target & Kill Journalists from Al-Jazeera & Reuters, Again Message-ID: <2591881.1049895148625.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Wednesday, April 09, 2003, at 08:33AM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: Another disengenuous subject line. There's no question but that the troops screwed up in these instances, but they were not targeting journalists. The tank crew mistakenly thought they had come under fire from Palestine Hotel, and the Al Jazeera offices were next to govt buildings--the reason other news organizations were no longer in that area. And I notice, Gabriel, that you've made no mention of the good news out of Iraq--that, whenever and wherever the Iraqis no longer fear Saddam, they welcome the US/UK trops. (No doubt that will change in Tikrit, and we'll hear news of that from you.) Nor have you mentioned things like this article from Reuters (http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=IYFQF0UH2FTHICRBAEKSFFA?type=focusIraqNews&storyID=2534147) which reports that volunteers for Saddam from other countries feared the Iraqi people more than the Americans. "Salaam, a Lebanese Shi'ite Muslim, said he was unprepared for the hostility of some Iraqis to volunteers like himself. 'I went there to be a martyr, not to be murdered by a brother,' he told Reuters. 'We went there to help them liberate their country, and all they did was shoot us in the back.'" Of course, what has happened so far was the easy part--now comes the task of helping the Iraqis form a new government. Here is where we really find out Bush's intentions--and I hope Blair can keep him on the straight and narrow. From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Wed Apr 9 10:05:09 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:05:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons, Dewey etc In-Reply-To: <3E93E707.28766.1514AD@localhost> References: <3E929F5E.12526.81A7B1@localhost> <3E93E707.28766.1514AD@localhost> Message-ID: <1049897109.3e942895897e1@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> > Well, as you quote, books belong to the eyes that see them. I think > WC Williams and Charles Olson got the wrong things out of Dewey -- > and if you are right in saying they got an authority in Dewey to > appeal to in advocating randomness and carelessness instead of > control, reason, and responsibility as among the foundations of art, > then I think they are simply wrong about Dewey's thought and work. Marcus, I think we've strayed into an unproductive semantic argument here, which may have been partly my doing. What I had meant to say at the beginning was that Dewey steadfastly believes that philosophy and art are *motivated* acts -- on this we probably agree -- but that "control" was not one of his over-arching rubrics, while "experiment" surely was. You are the one equating a lack of control with "randomness" and "carelessness" not I, and surely not Dewey. The possibility of a *tactical* abandoning of control is something Dewey theorized in a hundred different ways -- witness what he says about Emerson: "One may without presumption believe that even if Emerson has no system, nonetheless he is the prophet and herald of any system which democracy may henceforth construct and hold by, and that when democracy has articulated itself, it will have no difficulty in finding itself already proposed in Emerson." This is a causality, not a coincidence. It is precisely Emerson's systemlessness, according to Dewey, which makes him the prophet of the paradoxical democratic "system." Again, "will *construe* liberty as meaning a universe in which there is real uncertainty and contingency." Do you think that Dewey somehow excludes language from this universe? Look, if you want to argue that the man who said of the work of art that the "limits of its aesthetic potentialities can be determined only experimentally by what artists make out of it in practice," who railed against the New Criticism all his life, and who insisted that "all ranking of higher and lower are, ultimately, out of place and stupid" somehow speaks for the New Formalism, be my guest. No skin off my nose. But if the only alternative to "control" you can imagine is "randomness" you're missing the point of the entire pragmatist project. This is the aesthetic equivalent of arguin that the only two possible political systems are fascist and anarchist. Take her or leave her, Stein is neither random nor careless. She is a motivated experimenter. You might have a look at Juliana Spahr's book _Everybody's Autonomy: Connective Reading and Collective Identity_ which reads Stein's intentions in the way I have suggested here. -m. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Apr 9 10:07:13 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:07:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dancing in Bagdad Message-ID: Just before I left for work, the streets of Bagdad were full of jubilation--Iraquis dancing, burning pictures of Saddam, pulling down statues, celebrating. The most interesting sign held up by a group of Iraqis: HUMAN SHIELDS GO HOME This would probably not be a good time to organize a Poets Against the War reading in Bagdad. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 9 10:19:19 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 10:19:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <007e01c2fdda$b7e43780$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3E93F3A7.16445.4665A9@localhost> Daniel Zimmerman: > If the vast majority of member states in the UN agree to a blockade, > yes.< > Does that constitute "an act of war no different from bombing in the eyes of > the international law," as you say below? Perhaps, but this kind of "act of > war" entails > no necessary violence, whereas an approach like "shock and awe" undeniable > does.<< This is simply wrong. If you blockade a country it's like throwing someone into solitary confinement without food or water: you are doing great violence to them even though the effort you expend is not as great as if you were to beat them to death -- and that's why a blockade is an act of war irrespective of how many nations agree to participate in it, just as bombing is an act of war no matter how many nations agree to it. And people die from blockades, too -- people die from lack of food, water, medicine, and treatment. What you've been advocating, if I understand it correctly, is a take- over of the Iraqi government by international aid agencies, so that they can ensure that people get food, water, shelter, medicine, and treatment but that the government gets no money or other resources with which to implement its policies, whatever they may be. You want to make sure that no one dies who wasn't going to die anyway; to be humane to the people while starving and choking the government regime. Well, my question was, and remains, how do you propose to do that without taking over the functions of the Iraqi (or whatever) government, without rendering that government powerless to do whatever it pleases to its people and to the international aid agencie workers if you are not willing to advocate an armed force standing between the people and aid workers on one side and the government and its forces on the other? If you aren't willing to advocate the use of some force in compelling the government and its forces to forbear the use of force to distribute the resources the international aid agencies bring in according to the government's instead of the aid agencies' agenda, what do you imagine will stand between the government and the aid agency workers and the people of the country? Daniel Zimmerman: > In a blockade, those who decide to put money above justice invite > opposition, but they don't have to do that. They could instead wait for the > regime to topple, then trade legitimately with a new regime.<< But this is just another way to say "go to war on the cheap" -- you want to achieve war aims without risking war risks. You imagine, it appears, that a siege is something relatively short-term and painless and that it doesn't kill anyone. Do you really think that, or are you on the other hand willing to endure the endless photos of dying children and pleading mothers on world tv as you tighten the noose of the siege relentlessly, keeping everything out that the country cannot produce itself? Or do you have a solution for the problem of standing between the rogeue regime and its people and the aid workers to keep the regime from redistributing the goods as it sees fit, or simply holding the aid workers hostage for more goods? Daniel Zimmerman: > Kennedy's (if I > remember correctly, unilateral) blockade of Cuba achieved its goal of > removing Soviet missiles; I think it would have had far greater authority > and more extensive effect had dozens of nations from both hemispheres sent > ships to participate.<< It was carefully called a "quarantine" in order not to call it a blockade and not commit an act of war. It lasted only about three days as I recall, or fewer, and was focussed on the Soviet ships steaming toward Cuba. That situation differed substantially from the Iraq situation in that the problem was to try to prevent existing weapons from being made operational, and to prevent new weapons from being delivered -- weapons that were being delivered to Cuba to project a first-strike capability by the Soviets against the US. The iraq situation is very different in that the goal is to oust the regime not merely get a third party to remove its weapons from the soil of the quarantined island. Daniel Zimmerman: > Insofar as either kind of attack [preemptive or preventative] leaves people dead, the difference > seems merely semantic. I used the term "preemptive" because I've heard the > Bushies use it-perhaps incorrectly, and perhaps deliberately to blur further > the already fuzzy distinction between those terms.<< But this is still the position that any death is unacceptable; that there are no conditions or circumstances in which you'd hold some deaths are acceptable. Is that really your position? Daniel Zimmerman: > When I advocate blockade, > I do so to avoid either kind of "attack," since both seem heinous to me. A > blockade resembles a patriot missile battery, a purely defensive modality > used only as a response to an attack by the other guys-a cheap and > relatively effective version of Reagan's Star Wars defense proposal which he > seems to have advocated for good motives.<< But a blockade is NOT merely defensive because people try to run the blockade -- willing traders willing to take the great risks of running the blockade to reap the great rewards of successfully doing so by selling their illegal goods on the black market. If you're not willing to advocate shooting those people and sinking their boats or burning their trucks or shooting down their airplanes, then what kind of "blockade" is that? It's pure symbolism, purely ineffectual, and does nothing to stop whatever suffering a regime is oppressing its people with. You do more harm than good with empty symbolic blockades, in the same way the first Bush League urged the Shia to rebel in Iraq and then did nothing to help them or prevent Saddam Hussein from killing hundreds of thousands of them. You seem to believe that there is a blithe bloodlessness in blockades, a respect for the law, for the will of the community of nations, that, if it existed in the first place would make any blockade or any aid unnecessary because the regime would be neither rogue nor oppressive to begin with. Daniel Zimmerman: > ... As for blockade, I think that the principle "the best offense > is a good defense" applies here.<< This is precisely backwards. The conventional wisdom is "The best defense is a good offense". Daniel Zimmerman: > The idea of attacking in self-defense against a > threat of attack differs from attacking to defend against an actual attack.<< Not significantly enough to matter if the threat of attack is imminent. The question is whether it is in fact imminent. Daniel Zimmerman: > If we want to justify the former, we could come up with a number of > countries that would make excellent candidates to attack (but few of which > sit atop a sea of oil). If we do not attack such countries, does that make > us culpable of abetting them in the oppression of their people and in their > threats to their neighbors? The Wolfowitz-Rumsfield-Cheney wing seems poised > to make that case.<< The apparent hypocrisy of the Bush League's view of the world is not really the issue here. The question is whether the attack on Iraq can reasonably be characterized as a matter of pre-empting an imminent threat by attacking first. Reasonable people can differ in this case because of the egregiousness of the Hussein regime's past and potential actions against its neighbors. That Iraq sits on an ocean of oil is precisely what makes the situation an intimate concern of US foreign policy, since oil is what makes the western world go round. You might argue that the money and effort is better spent in developing alternative fuels and machines, and I might agree with you, but there the question revolves around whether the long-term fix of alternatives can be developed and put in place before the short- term threats by the Hussein regime are carried out in that region. Daniel Zimmerman: > As cops, we took back Kuwait, which we claimed Iraq had robbed. > If we claim the role of cops now, we have little evidence that Iraq has > tried to "rob the world community of its peace and wealth." On the other > hand, ample evidence exists of our interest in unimpeded access to Iraqi oil > (though we seem the greatest impeders at the moment).<< Yes, there is not merely ample evidence of the US interest in access to Iraqi, and other nations', oil -- it is unarguable that it is the access to the oil that makes this problem rise to the level of imminence of threat. If the Hussein regime were able to develop weapons of sufficiently mass destruction to threaten Israel and its other neighbors with overwhelming damage before any of the protective might of the US could be brought to bear, then Iraq would be in a position to exert increasingly strong control over the single resource, oil, that is most important to western civilization at present, and would make Hussein a powerful player in the world. It is precisely that sort of scenario that impels the US to exert its control instead. But that control is the control of the cops trying to ensure the status quo, not that of robbers trying to clean out the bank for their own personal gain without regard for whose life savings are no longer available to which orphan or widow. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From barry.spacks at verizon.net Wed Apr 9 10:42:27 2003 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 07:42:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the Robert & Allen Show In-Reply-To: <200304091334.h39DY8ST022629@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030409073915.00b1ab88@incoming.verizon.net> At 09:34 AM 4/9/2003 -0400, Mike wrote: >(I have an, I think, interesting story about >Ginsberg & Lowell if anyone's curious). -m. yes, curious, please bring it on. Barry >--__--__-- > >Message: 3 >Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:46:53 -0700 (PDT) >From: CobbCoStudioArts >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >I, like Daisy, heard an estimate of 900, but this count of the "civilians" >does not include those that were killed by being made into human shields, >nor does it take into account the suicide bombers. > >Bob > >Poetry Catamaran > >"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known >mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > >Robert R. Cobb >AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. >http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > >--- Daisy Fried wrote: > >Dan--The website www.iraqbodycount.net, which makes estimates of minimum > >and maximum civilian deaths based on a variety of western and eastern > >mainstream media outlets says a minimum of 900 and a maximum of 1073 have > >been killed based on current available info. The site is updated at least > >daily. Daisy > > > >> Thanks for the update, Bob. > >> Any word on how many expendable civilian ragheads we snuffed? > >> > >> Grrr. > >> Dan > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >--__--__-- > >Message: 4 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Logan/Fairchild >Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:31:26 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > Logan's lame, slippery response to Fairchild's > > demonstration of Logan's sloppy reading of > > his book demonstrates Logan's contempt for his > > readers' intelligence, as well as just about > > all the poetry he reviews. I mean, really, > > critics mean "sentimental" when they say "unsentimental?" > > > > It does the New Criterion no credit to feature > > Logan's reviews. > > > > Richard > >Well, they're better than John Simon's. > >--Bob G. > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 5 >Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:33:23 -0400 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN >From: Michael Snider >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >On Tuesday, April 8, 2003, at 11:25 AM, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Michael Snider" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 10:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > > > > > >> In other words, coalition efforts to minimize civilian deaths have > >> been > > remarkably successful--which is not to say that any civilian death is > > cause > > for anything but mourning and renewed determination to avoid such > > deaths in > > the future. > >> > >> And no one involved, except opponents to the war out to demonize > >> others, > > thinks in terms of "expendable civilian ragheads." > > > > DZ: Mike, you sound like Pangloss! Remarkably successful? Let's not > > strain > > ourselves while patting our own backs. > >Compare the numbers to the what happened in Afghanistan, and in Kosovo, >and compare those numbers to what has happened in previous wars. >Consider the size of the military effort, and that much of it occurred >in urban areas, and the numbers, SO FAR, are astonishingly low. No >armed force in history has been anywhere near as successful in avoiding >civilian deaths. There's nothing Panglossian about it. > > > With regard to my sardonic reference > > to "expendable civilian ragheads," from conversations I've had with > > lots of > > people around the country, and from listening to my students, and from > > listening to right-wing talk shows, I'll bet many of those > > "involved"--not > > just some of the soldiers, but some of the armchair general supporters > > of > > the war, redneck and otherwise--think in even less flattering terms > > about > > Iraqi civilians, as attacks on Muslim-looking people here after 9-11 > > suggest > > (a racist in Texas, for example, killed the uncle of one of my Indian > > students, mistaking him for a Muslim). The widespread Muslim > > misperception > > of America as a country of infidels determined to wage war on Islam, I > > think, has a parallel here among the chronically uninformed and > > uninterested > > that the lives of, in this case, Iraqis just don't matter as much as > > the > > lives of Americans. > >There are racists in the US; certainly there are racists among the >troops. It is unlikely that racism has anything to do with the planning >of this war. For the political and military leaders of the coalition, >avoiding civilian deaths as much as possible is not just human fellow >feeling--though I'm certain there is a good deal of that for many of >those involved--but a political necessity. Given that we are fighting >(and I know you don't accept we should be), they've worked hard at >avoiding civilian deaths, and have succeeded to a degree never thought >possible before. > > > Even Madeline Albright registered that attitude in her > > astonishing statement that she found the death of 500,000 Iraqi > > children due > > to our "sanctions" against Saddam's regime "an acceptable price"! I > > feel no > > need to demonize those who flaunt their own horns, hooves and pointy > > tails. > >The price was set by Saddam Hussein. All he had to do was cooperate >with the first round of inspections and stop attempts to persecute >Kurds and Shiites, and the sanctions would have been lifted. The UN >and the US do not share in the blame for deaths due to sanctions--that >rests solely with Hussein, whose actions ensured the sanctions continue >and who diverted what food and money was available for his palaces and >his armies. > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 6 >Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:42:24 -0400 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN >From: Michael Snider >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >On Tuesday, April 8, 2003, at 05:33 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > > > The UN and the US do not share in the blame for deaths due to > > sanctions--that rests solely with Hussein, whose actions ensured the > > sanctions continue and who diverted what food and money was available > > for his palaces and his armies. > > >Perhaps the UN and the US--though mostly the UN--do share some of the >blame because there was no credible threat of action to enforce the >inspections and sanctions. At least the US and UK, after their initial >standoff, stopped Saddam's slaughter in the no fly zones. > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 7 >Date: Tue, 8 Apr 03 18:25:07 EDT >From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan/Fairchild >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Bob G. wrote: > >>Well, [Logan's reviews] are better than John Simon's. > >I don't think so. Granted, I haven't seen much of >Simon's writing for a cuppla' decades or so, but at >least Simon is upfront with his nastiness. Also, >IMO, Simon is a ton smarter than Logan. > >Richard > >--__--__-- > >Message: 8 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Logan/Fairchild >Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:38:10 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > Bob G. wrote: > > >>Well, [Logan's reviews] are better than John Simon's. > > > > I don't think so. Granted, I haven't seen much of > > Simon's writing for a cuppla' decades or so, but at > > least Simon is upfront with his nastiness. Also, > > IMO, Simon is a ton smarter than Logan. > >Not about poetry. I can't remember much of his poetry reviews now, but do >remember that I felt he spent way too much time on condemning what he took >to be grammatical solecisms. He's excessively interested in metrical >purity, etc., too. My impression is that he really knows just about nothing >about poetry. I remember once when he decided someone who had been called >a poet was not because the person was not listed as a member of PEN, and a >few other like organizations. Logan does know a little about a narrow band >of poetry. > >--Bob G. > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 9 >Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 07:33:20 -0500 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: Gabriel Gudding >Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Americans Target & Kill Journalists from >Al-Jazeera & > Reuters, Again >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >this via Aaron Vidaver on Buffalo Poetics > > >Fury at US as attacks kill three journalists > >Al-Jazeera quits Iraq as Americans accused over deaths > >Suzanne Goldenberg in Baghdad, Rory McCarthy in Doha, > >Jonathan Steele in Amman and Brian Whitaker > >Wednesday April 9, 2003 > >The Guardian > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,932809,00.html > > > > > >The Arab satellite television channel al-Jazeera is to > >pull its reporters out of Iraq after one of them was > >killed during a US air raid on Baghdad. > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 10 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:25:27 -0400 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Americans Target & Kill Journalists from >Al-Jazeera & Reuters, Again >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >On 9 Apr 2003 at 7:33, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > >Fury at US as attacks kill three journalists > > >Al-Jazeera quits Iraq as Americans accused over deaths > > >Suzanne Goldenberg in Baghdad, Rory McCarthy in Doha, > > >Jonathan Steele in Amman and Brian Whitaker > > >Wednesday April 9, 2003 > > >The Guardian > > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,932809,00.html > >Do you really believe the accusation that US troops are targeting >journalists? > > >Marcus Bales > >marcus at designerglass.com >http://www.designerglass.com > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 11 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:25:27 -0400 >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > Marcus, I've got to run to class right now but just quickly, you're > dead wrong > > about Dewey -- because you misread how he construes experience. I > realize this > > may devolve into dueling quotes but, just as a place to start here are > a couple > > to consider: > >Sorry, I had a dayful of appointments and couldn't get back to you, >but denying that philosophy is a form of knowledge is not to deny >control, reason, and responsibility. The man's life is a testament to >control, reason, and responsibility, and so is his writing and >thought. To hold that Dewey's position is to oppose control, reason, >and, and responsibility is like holding that a computer chip is >opposed to silicon: his life, work, and thought are made up of >control, reason, and responsibility. > >The position you seem to think he takes with regard to art as >experience is a calculated one -- controlled, reasonable, and >responsible -- in reaction to a particular mode of response to and >creation of art that Dewey holds is deadening rather than quickening. >But the idea that Dewey's position is that the artist need have none >of control, reason, or responsibility is absurd. > >Magee quoting Dewey: > > "A philosophy animated, be it consciously or unconsciously, by the > strivings of > > men to achieve democracy will construe liberty as meaning a universe in > which > > there is real uncertainty and contingency, a world which is not all in, > and > > never will be, a world which in some respect is incomplete and in the > making, > > and in these respects may be made this way or that according as men judge, > > prize, love and labor...a genuine field of novelty, of real and > unpredictable > > increments to existence, a field for experimentation and invention" > (2:851)<< > >None of which argues that artists ought to throw over control, >reason, or responsibility in favor of slack randomness. The very >terms in which he puts this, "...in the MAKING ... may be MADE this >way or that according as men prize, love, and labor ..." eviscerates >the notion that Dewey's position is one of abandoning control, >reason, or responsibility. He is talking about directed efforts >within an overarching theory of making meaning my MAKING meaning. He >doesn't say we merely find meaning in random collations, or in >congeries of images, or in heaps of words. > >Magee quoting Dewey: > > " ...As an organism increases in > > complexity, the rhythms of struggle and consummation in its relation to > its > > environment are varied and prolonged, and they come to include within > > themselves an endless variety of subrhythms. The designs of living are > widened > > and enriched. Fulfillment is more massive and more subtly shaded...The > process > > of organic life is variation...Demand for variety is the manifestation > of the > > fact that being alive we seek to live, until we are cowed by fear or > dulled by > > routine. The need of life itself pushes out into the unknown" (AE 23, > 168).<< > >You might as well argue that Dewey was promoting and advocating free >love from this: promoting and advocating the destruction of all >institutions, of marriage, of government, of art, of everything -- >argue that Dewey was a wild-eyed anarcho-radical devoted to the blind >and undirected pursuit of pure variety as to argue that this passage >shows that Dewey was arguing for an art that lacks control, reason, >or responsibility. Ripped from the context of Dewey's life and >thought this passage might be used to argue that we ought not keep >our promises or support our children because to do either would be to >become mired in dull routine. Are you really willing to say that >Dewey was a man who argued for that kind of view of life? > >Magee quoting Dewey: > > "The artist," Dewey writes, "is a born experimenter...because he has to > express > > an intensely individualized experience through means and materials that > belong > > to the common public world...Only because the artist operates > experimentally > > does he open new aspects and qualities in familiar scenes and objects" > (AE 144) > >Dewey does not argue that the artist's expression has to be without >control, reason, or responsibility, though, nor that "new aspects and >qualities in familiar scenes and objects" are to be presented without >control, reason, or responsibility. The "means and materials that >belong to the common public world", in fact, argues strongly that >Dewey's position is one of advocating control, reason, and >responsibility in expression of those new aspects and qualities -- >because the "common public world" has little interest in or time for >the wilder-eyed varieties of "means and materials". > >Magee quoting Dewey: > > Now look at what he has to say about the New Criticism and Eliot: > > "Without any special competency in philosophic thought, they are > > ready to pronounce ex cathedra judgements, because they are > > comitted to some conceptio of the relation of man to the universe > > that flourished in some past epoch. They reaged its > > restoration as essential to the redemption of society from its > > present evil state" (AE 319).<< > >This sounds just like a condemnation of the notions of the most >contemporary of artists, those who are most committed to the notion >that randomness is significant and carelessness is art. It could be a >condemnation of any group that condemned control, reason, and >responsibility in the contemporary world, who sought solace in the >dogmatism of an ideology. > >But there is a difference between the dogmatism of an ideology and >the flexible pursuit of significance by the means of art through >control, reason, and responsibility. Your quotations are simply not >persuasive that Dewey, at least, was an advocate of abandoning >control, reason, and responsibility. His whole method of being and >writing refutes the notion that he regarded control, reason, and >responsibility as accoutrements to be abandoned in favor of >randomness and carelessness. > >Magee: > > Of course, I don't doubt that you can go through Dewey's corpus and fine > > sentences which would seem to contradict the general trend of his work > - as > > Emerson says, "books belong to the eyes that see them" - but if I were > you I'd > > think twice about hanging your hat on Dewey. Eliot's clearly your man, > for > > better or worse. Eliot's mentor was of course William James's Harvard > nemesis > > F.H. Bradley, and on and on it goes. There's a good reason, a very good > > reason, that Dewey's champions in the poetry world are WC Williams and > Charles > > Olson and not T.S. Eliot and Richard Wilbur.<< > >Well, as you quote, books belong to the eyes that see them. I think >WC Williams and Charles Olson got the wrong things out of Dewey -- >and if you are right in saying they got an authority in Dewey to >appeal to in advocating randomness and carelessness instead of >control, reason, and responsibility as among the foundations of art, >then I think they are simply wrong about Dewey's thought and work. > >Holding someone such as Dewey out as an advocate of abandoning >control, reason, and responsibility, is like holding someone such as >Prince Kropotkin out as an advocate of fascism -- it's just too >absurd. > >Marcus Bales > >marcus at designerglass.com >http://www.designerglass.com > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 12 >Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:32:28 -0400 >From: Michael Snider >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Americans Target & Kill Journalists from >Al-Jazeera & Reuters, Again >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >On Wednesday, April 09, 2003, at 08:33AM, Gabriel Gudding > wrote: > >Another disengenuous subject line. There's no question but that the >troops screwed up in these instances, but they were not targeting >journalists. The tank crew mistakenly thought they had come under fire >from Palestine Hotel, and the Al Jazeera offices were next to govt >buildings--the reason other news organizations were no longer in that area. > >And I notice, Gabriel, that you've made no mention of the good news out of >Iraq--that, whenever and wherever the Iraqis no longer fear Saddam, they >welcome the US/UK trops. (No doubt that will change in Tikrit, and we'll >hear news of that from you.) Nor have you mentioned things like this >article from Reuters >(http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=IYFQF0UH2FTHICRBAEKSFFA?type=focusIraqNews&storyID=2534147) >which reports that volunteers for Saddam from other countries feared the >Iraqi people more than the Americans. > >"Salaam, a Lebanese Shi'ite Muslim, said he was unprepared for the >hostility of some Iraqis to volunteers like himself. > >'I went there to be a martyr, not to be murdered by a brother,' he told >Reuters. 'We went there to help them liberate their country, and all they >did was shoot us in the back.'" > >Of course, what has happened so far was the easy part--now comes the task >of helping the Iraqis form a new government. Here is where we really find >out Bush's intentions--and I hope Blair can keep him on the straight and >narrow. > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Apr 9 10:44:30 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:44:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: An article/interview on Gioia at the NEA. http://www.washingtontimes.com/arts/20030405-74727453.htm Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Apr 9 11:33:14 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:33:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: Message-ID: <00ee01c2fead$564b7be0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Did he really say, of two abstract paintings, "I have no idea what they mean"? Tad Richards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 10:44 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA > An article/interview on Gioia at the NEA. > > http://www.washingtontimes.com/arts/20030405-74727453.htm > > Paul Lake > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 9 11:28:07 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:28:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Lynn Emanuel, "Inside Gertrude Stein" Message-ID: Inside Gertrude Stein Right now as I am talking to you and as you are being talked to, without letup, it is becoming clear that gertrude stein has hijacked me and that this feeling that you are having now as you read this, that this is what it feels like to be inside gertrude stein. This is what it feels like to be a huge typewriter in a dress. Yes, I feel we have gotten inside gertrude stein, and of course it is dark inside the enormous gertrude, it is like being locked up in a refrigerator lit only by a smiling rind of cheese. Being inside gertrude is like being inside a monu- ment made of a cloud which is always moving across the sky which is also always moving. Gertrude is a huge galleon of cloud anchored to the ground by one small tether, yes, I see it down there, do you see that tiny snail glued to the tackboard of the landscape? That is alice. So, I am inside gertrude; we belong to each other, she and I, and it is so wonderful because I have always been a thin woman inside of whom a big woman is screaming to get out, and she's out now and if a river could type this is how it would sound, pure and complicated and enormous. Now we are lilting across the countryside, and we are walking and if the wind could type it would sound like this, ongoing and repetitious, abstracting and stylizing everything, like our famous haircut painted by Picasso. Because when you are inside our haircut you understand that all the flotsam and jetsam of hairdo have been cleared away (like the forests from the New World) so that the skull can show through grinning and feasting on the alarm it has created. I am now, alarmingly, inside gertrude's head and I am thinking that I may only be a thought she has had when she imagined that she and alice were dead and gone and someone had to carry on the work of being gertrude stein, and so I am receiving, from beyond the grave, radioactive isotopes of her genius saying, take up my work, become gertrude stein. Because someone must be gertrude stein, someone must save us from the liter- alists and realists, and narratives of the beginning and end, someone must be a river that can type. And why not I? Gertrude is insisting on the fact that while I am a subgenius, weighing one hundred five pounds, and living in a small town with an enormous furry male husband who is always in his Cadillac Eldorado driving off to sell something to people who do not deserve the bad luck of this merchandise in their lives--that these facts would not be a problem for gertrude stein. Gertrude and I feel that, for instance, *Patriarchal Poetry* when (like an avalanche that can type) she is burying the patriarchy, still there per- sists a sense of condescending affection. So, while I'm a thin, heterosexual sub- genius, nevertheless gertrude has chosen me as her tool, just as she chose the patriarchy as a tool for ending the patriarchy. And because I have become her tool, now, in a sense, gertrude is inside me. It's tough. Having gertrude inside me is like having swallowed an ocean line that can type, and, while I feel like a very small coat closet with a bear in it, gertrude and I feel that I must tell you that gertrude does not care. She is using me to get her message across, to say, I am lost, I am beset by literalists and narratives of the beginning and middle and end, help me. And so, yes, I say, yes, I am here, gertrude, because we feel, gertrude and I, that there is real urgency in our voice (like a sob that can type) and that things are very bad for her because she is lost, beset by the literalists and realists, her own enormousness crushing her, and we must find her and take her into ourselves, even though I am the least likely of saviors and have been chosen perhaps as a last resort, yes, definitely, gertrude is saying to me, you are the least likely of saviors, you are my last choice and my last resort. --Lynn Emanuel fr. *PEN America: A Journal for Writers and Readers* Issue 4 (Volume 2), 2002 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 9 11:36:22 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:36:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <00ee01c2fead$564b7be0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: If he did, perhaps there's hope for him. I mean, imagine him telling us what they mean. I mean, really. Hal "One recognizes masterpieces by that impression of scorched earth they leave behind them." --Bertrand Poirot-Delpech Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Did he really say, of two abstract paintings, "I have no idea what they { mean"? { { Tad Richards From elemenope at icubed.com Wed Apr 9 00:16:57 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:16:57 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM DEFEATS SADDAM. IRAQ Loves U S TROOPS! In-Reply-To: <200304091334.h39DYEST022636@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304091334.h39DYEST022636@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: At 12:39 PM +0800 1/31/03, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: >. > >I Stand With The First Lady >I Stand with The Statue of Liberty > > > >A crowd of poets waving their poems > >Is merely a crowd waving its fists - > >And not one swung at Saddam, > >Reciting his own verses from a tyrant's balustrade, > >Looking on, chortling, punctuating, remunerating > >Their seditions with his suicide checks and shot gun. > > > >Message: 12 >Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:32:28 -0400 >From: Michael Snider >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Americans Target & Kill Journalists >from Al-Jazeera & Reuters, Again >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >On Wednesday, April 09, 2003, at 08:33AM, Gabriel Gudding > wrote: > >Another disengenuous subject line. There's no question but that the >troops screwed up in these instances, but they were not targeting >journalists. The tank crew mistakenly thought they had come under >fire from Palestine Hotel, and the Al Jazeera offices were next to >govt buildings--the reason other news organizations were no longer >in that area. > >And I notice, Gabriel, that you've made no mention of the good news >out of Iraq--that, whenever and wherever the Iraqis no longer fear >Saddam, they welcome the US/UK trops. (No doubt that will change in >Tikrit, and we'll hear news of that from you.) Nor have you >mentioned things like this article from Reuters >(http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=IYFQF0UH2FTHICRBAEKSFFA?type=focusIraqNews&storyID=2534147) >which reports that volunteers for Saddam from other countries feared >the Iraqi people more than the Americans. > >"Salaam, a Lebanese Shi'ite Muslim, said he was unprepared for the >hostility of some Iraqis to volunteers like himself. > >'I went there to be a martyr, not to be murdered by a brother,' he >told Reuters. 'We went there to help them liberate their country, >and all they did was shoot us in the back.'" > >Of course, what has happened so far was the easy part--now comes the >task of helping the Iraqis form a new government. Here is where we >really find out Bush's intentions--and I hope Blair can keep him on >the straight and narrow. > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 9 12:37:54 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 09:37:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <00ee01c2fead$564b7be0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <20030409163754.5108.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> I remember sitting in school as those around me discussed poems by people like John Ashbery--I know many will shell me for this, but I don't care. I felt completely confused, and for a good long while felt inadequate because that kind of abstract writing made no sense to me. Now, I don't give a damn. I'm not about to pretend that I understand something just because "it's art." I've got too much to do. To hell with that kind of conformist thinking. Grr.... Jeff Newberry TheOldMole wrote:Did he really say, of two abstract paintings, "I have no idea what they mean"? Tad Richards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 10:44 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA > An article/interview on Gioia at the NEA. > > http://www.washingtontimes.com/arts/20030405-74727453.htm > > Paul Lake > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Wed Apr 9 12:40:06 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:40:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Lynn Emanuel, "Inside Gertrude Stein" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1049906406.3e944ce697b46@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Thanks for this Hal. Emanuel is an interesting case of someone who tries to stake ground on the Blakan borders, you know. Way back when I was invited to the Frost Festival of Poetry (they'd shudder at me now no doubt!) I heard her give a talk on Language Poetry (this was around the time The Dig had been published). I wish I remembered more about the talk, I was twenty and uninterested. What I can recall is her being fairly laughed out of the building by a very skeptical audience. -m. Quoting Halvard Johnson : > > Inside Gertrude Stein > > Right now as I am talking to you and as you are being talked to, without > letup, it is becoming clear that gertrude stein has hijacked me and that > this > feeling that you are having now as you read this, that this is what it feels > like to > be inside gertrude stein. This is what it feels like to be a huge typewriter > in a > dress. Yes, I feel we have gotten inside gertrude stein, and of course it is > dark > inside the enormous gertrude, it is like being locked up in a refrigerator > lit only > by a smiling rind of cheese. Being inside gertrude is like being inside a > monu- > ment made of a cloud which is always moving across the sky which is also > always moving. Gertrude is a huge galleon of cloud anchored to the ground by > one small tether, yes, I see it down there, do you see that tiny snail glued > to the > tackboard of the landscape? That is alice. So, I am inside gertrude; we > belong > to each other, she and I, and it is so wonderful because I have always been > a > thin woman inside of whom a big woman is screaming to get out, and she's out > now and if a river could type this is how it would sound, pure and > complicated > and enormous. Now we are lilting across the countryside, and we are walking > and if the wind could type it would sound like this, ongoing and > repetitious, > abstracting and stylizing everything, like our famous haircut painted by > Picasso. > Because when you are inside our haircut you understand that all the flotsam > and jetsam of hairdo have been cleared away (like the forests from the New > World) so that the skull can show through grinning and feasting on the alarm > it has created. I am now, alarmingly, inside gertrude's head and I am > thinking > that I may only be a thought she has had when she imagined that she and > alice > were dead and gone and someone had to carry on the work of being gertrude > stein, and so I am receiving, from beyond the grave, radioactive isotopes of > her > genius saying, take up my work, become gertrude stein. > > Because someone must be gertrude stein, someone must save us from the liter- > alists and realists, and narratives of the beginning and end, someone must be > a > river that can type. And why not I? Gertrude is insisting on the fact that > while > I am a subgenius, weighing one hundred five pounds, and living in a small > town > with an enormous furry male husband who is always in his Cadillac Eldorado > driving off to sell something to people who do not deserve the bad luck of > this > merchandise in their lives--that these facts would not be a problem for > gertrude stein. Gertrude and I feel that, for instance, *Patriarchal Poetry* > when > (like an avalanche that can type) she is burying the patriarchy, still there > per- > sists a sense of condescending affection. So, while I'm a thin, heterosexual > sub- > genius, nevertheless gertrude has chosen me as her tool, just as she chose > the > patriarchy as a tool for ending the patriarchy. And because I have become > her > tool, now, in a sense, gertrude is inside me. It's tough. Having gertrude > inside > me is like having swallowed an ocean line that can type, and, while I feel > like > a very small coat closet with a bear in it, gertrude and I feel that I must > tell you > that gertrude does not care. She is using me to get her message across, to > say, I > am lost, I am beset by literalists and narratives of the beginning and middle > and > end, help me. And so, yes, I say, yes, I am here, gertrude, because we feel, > gertrude and I, that there is real urgency in our voice (like a sob that can > type) > and that things are very bad for her because she is lost, beset by the > literalists > and realists, her own enormousness crushing her, and we must find her and > take > her into ourselves, even though I am the least likely of saviors and have > been > chosen perhaps as a last resort, yes, definitely, gertrude is saying to me, > you are > the least likely of saviors, you are my last choice and my last resort. > > --Lynn Emanuel > > fr. *PEN America: A Journal for Writers and Readers* > Issue 4 (Volume 2), 2002 > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Apr 9 12:46:19 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:46:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynn Emanuel, "Inside Gertrude Stein" Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F4A@mail.ripon.edu> Hey, I like "Blakan borders"! I want to see that as "Blakean," somehow, rather than merely "Balkan." Curious, though, as to why Emanuel was fairly laughed out of Robert Frost's barn--because she was staking out the borders? Because Language Poetry was deemed laughable? Because she was deemed laughable *as* a Language Poet? Because she wore a funny hat? ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:40 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu; Halvard Johnson > Cc: New-Poetry > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Lynn Emanuel, "Inside > Gertrude Stein" > > Thanks for this Hal. Emanuel is an interesting case of someone who tries > to > stake ground on the Blakan borders, you know. Way back when I was invited > to > the Frost Festival of Poetry (they'd shudder at me now no doubt!) I heard > her > give a talk on Language Poetry (this was around the time The Dig had been > published). I wish I remembered more about the talk, I was twenty and > uninterested. What I can recall is her being fairly laughed out of the > building by a very skeptical audience. -m. > > From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 9 13:27:42 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 13:27:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Edgar Bowers Message-ID: <1dd.7231324.2bc5b20e@aol.com> Subj: Subj: Edgar Bowers Date: 4/8/03 2:00:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com (The Knopf Poetry Center) To: JforJames at aol.com Edgar Bowers (1924-2000) served in the Counter Intelligence Corps assigned to the 101st Airborne Division in the Second World War. ****************************************** A Fragment: the Cause What I remember is the spell, a mask Of numbness on the face and on the body Attention to a silent foreign call, Rapt murmuring on the lips the one reply; Later, the fall, the cry profane and life-long, Convulsion, and our helplessness -- a pillow Under the head, a blanket, and the waiting; Medicinal hope's spent brevity, the spent Bitterness of catastrophe's relief. I could remember everything, if I would, But do not wish to or to tell the story, Though none will know it when I, too, am dead, The last of those who shared and witnessed it. ****************************************** From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Wed Apr 9 14:09:51 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:09:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynn Emanuel, "Inside Gertrude Stein" In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F4A@mail.ripon.edu> References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F4A@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <1049911791.3e9461ef8aff3@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> David, as I remember it (and, again it's the fuzzy memory of an uninterested twenty year old, ugh) Emanuel was trying to discuss the idea that meaning-in-language is a highly contingent affair (don't remember if she got into issues such as power ascribed in discourse etc) and the crowd sort of shrugged it off like "yeah, right, words don't mean anything, what a joke." Then she read from The Dig which is metaphorical in the extreme and the response (besides being bowled over by the performance which was quite good) was "I thought she said words didn't mean anything!" Ha-ha. But, looking back, it's very obvious why Emanuel would be very interested in that other Lyn, Hejinian. BTW, the Festival itself was pretty important for me at the time. I've made it sound dumb via this one incident but it wasn't - there were good smart people there, Donald Hall, Robert Cording, Baron Wormser, Emanuel herself. At the time I felt like, you know, the kid brother of the captain of the football team, or a boy wonder in a candystore or something. What's that thing that Yeats says about Keats? - his nose pressed to the sweetshop window? Or something. -m. Quoting "Graham, David" : > Hey, I like "Blakan borders"! I want to see that as "Blakean," somehow, > rather than merely "Balkan." > > Curious, though, as to why Emanuel was fairly laughed out of Robert Frost's > barn--because she was staking out the borders? Because Language Poetry was > deemed laughable? Because she was deemed laughable *as* a Language Poet? > Because she wore a funny hat? > > ============================================ > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > > ---------- > > From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2003 11:40 AM > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu; Halvard Johnson > > Cc: New-Poetry > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Lynn Emanuel, "Inside > > Gertrude Stein" > > > > Thanks for this Hal. Emanuel is an interesting case of someone who tries > > to > > stake ground on the Blakan borders, you know. Way back when I was invited > > to > > the Frost Festival of Poetry (they'd shudder at me now no doubt!) I heard > > her > > give a talk on Language Poetry (this was around the time The Dig had been > > published). I wish I remembered more about the talk, I was twenty and > > uninterested. What I can recall is her being fairly laughed out of the > > building by a very skeptical audience. -m. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Wed Apr 9 14:28:21 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:28:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New at Mainstream Poetry In-Reply-To: <000d01c2fd2d$d604f540$a564f4d1@computer> References: <000d01c2fd2d$d604f540$a564f4d1@computer> Message-ID: <1049912901.3e9466455fcc5@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> There are some wonderful new anagramatic poems as well as a stunner called "Money" up on the Mainstream Poetry website: www.mainstreampoetry.com None of the pieces are mine, though I wish I'd written them. -m. From adead_poet at hotmail.com Wed Apr 9 15:30:20 2003 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 14:30:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the Robert & Allen Show Message-ID: yes please, i'd like to hear it too. jason >From: Barry Spacks >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the Robert & Allen Show >Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 07:42:27 -0700 > >At 09:34 AM 4/9/2003 -0400, Mike wrote: >>(I have an, I think, interesting story about >>Ginsberg & Lowell if anyone's curious). -m. > >yes, curious, please bring it on. > >Barry > > > > >>--__--__-- >> >>Message: 3 >>Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:46:53 -0700 (PDT) >>From: CobbCoStudioArts >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN >>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>I, like Daisy, heard an estimate of 900, but this count of the "civilians" >>does not include those that were killed by being made into human shields, >>nor does it take into account the suicide bombers. >> >>Bob >> >>Poetry Catamaran >> >>"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known >>mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" >> >>Robert R. Cobb >>AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. >>http://rrcobb.tripod.com >> >> >>--- Daisy Fried wrote: >> >Dan--The website www.iraqbodycount.net, which makes estimates of minimum >> >and maximum civilian deaths based on a variety of western and eastern >> >mainstream media outlets says a minimum of 900 and a maximum of 1073 >>have >> >been killed based on current available info. The site is updated at >>least >> >daily. Daisy >> > >> >> Thanks for the update, Bob. >> >> Any word on how many expendable civilian ragheads we snuffed? >> >> >> >> Grrr. >> >> Dan >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >New-Poetry mailing list >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>--__--__-- >> >>Message: 4 >>From: "Bob Grumman" >>To: >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Logan/Fairchild >>Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:31:26 -0400 >>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> > Logan's lame, slippery response to Fairchild's >> > demonstration of Logan's sloppy reading of >> > his book demonstrates Logan's contempt for his >> > readers' intelligence, as well as just about >> > all the poetry he reviews. I mean, really, >> > critics mean "sentimental" when they say "unsentimental?" >> > >> > It does the New Criterion no credit to feature >> > Logan's reviews. >> > >> > Richard >> >>Well, they're better than John Simon's. >> >>--Bob G. >> >> >>--__--__-- >> >>Message: 5 >>Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:33:23 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN >>From: Michael Snider >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> >>On Tuesday, April 8, 2003, at 11:25 AM, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: >> >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Michael Snider" >> > To: >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 10:52 AM >> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN >> > >> > >> >> In other words, coalition efforts to minimize civilian deaths have >> >> been >> > remarkably successful--which is not to say that any civilian death is >> > cause >> > for anything but mourning and renewed determination to avoid such >> > deaths in >> > the future. >> >> >> >> And no one involved, except opponents to the war out to demonize >> >> others, >> > thinks in terms of "expendable civilian ragheads." >> > >> > DZ: Mike, you sound like Pangloss! Remarkably successful? Let's not >> > strain >> > ourselves while patting our own backs. >> >>Compare the numbers to the what happened in Afghanistan, and in Kosovo, >>and compare those numbers to what has happened in previous wars. >>Consider the size of the military effort, and that much of it occurred >>in urban areas, and the numbers, SO FAR, are astonishingly low. No >>armed force in history has been anywhere near as successful in avoiding >>civilian deaths. There's nothing Panglossian about it. >> >> > With regard to my sardonic reference >> > to "expendable civilian ragheads," from conversations I've had with >> > lots of >> > people around the country, and from listening to my students, and from >> > listening to right-wing talk shows, I'll bet many of those >> > "involved"--not >> > just some of the soldiers, but some of the armchair general supporters >> > of >> > the war, redneck and otherwise--think in even less flattering terms >> > about >> > Iraqi civilians, as attacks on Muslim-looking people here after 9-11 >> > suggest >> > (a racist in Texas, for example, killed the uncle of one of my Indian >> > students, mistaking him for a Muslim). The widespread Muslim >> > misperception >> > of America as a country of infidels determined to wage war on Islam, I >> > think, has a parallel here among the chronically uninformed and >> > uninterested >> > that the lives of, in this case, Iraqis just don't matter as much as >> > the >> > lives of Americans. >> >>There are racists in the US; certainly there are racists among the >>troops. It is unlikely that racism has anything to do with the planning >>of this war. For the political and military leaders of the coalition, >>avoiding civilian deaths as much as possible is not just human fellow >>feeling--though I'm certain there is a good deal of that for many of >>those involved--but a political necessity. Given that we are fighting >>(and I know you don't accept we should be), they've worked hard at >>avoiding civilian deaths, and have succeeded to a degree never thought >>possible before. >> >> > Even Madeline Albright registered that attitude in her >> > astonishing statement that she found the death of 500,000 Iraqi >> > children due >> > to our "sanctions" against Saddam's regime "an acceptable price"! I >> > feel no >> > need to demonize those who flaunt their own horns, hooves and pointy >> > tails. >> >>The price was set by Saddam Hussein. All he had to do was cooperate >>with the first round of inspections and stop attempts to persecute >>Kurds and Shiites, and the sanctions would have been lifted. The UN >>and the US do not share in the blame for deaths due to sanctions--that >>rests solely with Hussein, whose actions ensured the sanctions continue >>and who diverted what food and money was available for his palaces and >>his armies. >> >> >>--__--__-- >> >>Message: 6 >>Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:42:24 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN >>From: Michael Snider >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> >>On Tuesday, April 8, 2003, at 05:33 PM, Michael Snider wrote: >> >> > The UN and the US do not share in the blame for deaths due to >> > sanctions--that rests solely with Hussein, whose actions ensured the >> > sanctions continue and who diverted what food and money was available >> > for his palaces and his armies. >> >> >>Perhaps the UN and the US--though mostly the UN--do share some of the >>blame because there was no credible threat of action to enforce the >>inspections and sanctions. At least the US and UK, after their initial >>standoff, stopped Saddam's slaughter in the no fly zones. >> >> >>--__--__-- >> >>Message: 7 >>Date: Tue, 8 Apr 03 18:25:07 EDT >>From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan/Fairchild >>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>Bob G. wrote: >> >>Well, [Logan's reviews] are better than John Simon's. >> >>I don't think so. Granted, I haven't seen much of >>Simon's writing for a cuppla' decades or so, but at >>least Simon is upfront with his nastiness. Also, >>IMO, Simon is a ton smarter than Logan. >> >>Richard >> >>--__--__-- >> >>Message: 8 >>From: "Bob Grumman" >>To: >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Logan/Fairchild >>Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:38:10 -0400 >>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> >> >> > Bob G. wrote: >> > >>Well, [Logan's reviews] are better than John Simon's. >> > >> > I don't think so. Granted, I haven't seen much of >> > Simon's writing for a cuppla' decades or so, but at >> > least Simon is upfront with his nastiness. Also, >> > IMO, Simon is a ton smarter than Logan. >> >>Not about poetry. I can't remember much of his poetry reviews now, but do >>remember that I felt he spent way too much time on condemning what he took >>to be grammatical solecisms. He's excessively interested in metrical >>purity, etc., too. My impression is that he really knows just about >>nothing >>about poetry. I remember once when he decided someone who had been >>called >>a poet was not because the person was not listed as a member of PEN, and a >>few other like organizations. Logan does know a little about a narrow >>band >>of poetry. >> >>--Bob G. >> >> >>--__--__-- >> >>Message: 9 >>Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 07:33:20 -0500 >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>From: Gabriel Gudding >>Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Americans Target & Kill Journalists from >>Al-Jazeera & >> Reuters, Again >>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>this via Aaron Vidaver on Buffalo Poetics >> >> >Fury at US as attacks kill three journalists >> >Al-Jazeera quits Iraq as Americans accused over deaths >> >Suzanne Goldenberg in Baghdad, Rory McCarthy in Doha, >> >Jonathan Steele in Amman and Brian Whitaker >> >Wednesday April 9, 2003 >> >The Guardian >> >http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,932809,00.html >> > >> > >> >The Arab satellite television channel al-Jazeera is to >> >pull its reporters out of Iraq after one of them was >> >killed during a US air raid on Baghdad. >> >> >>--__--__-- >> >>Message: 10 >>From: "Marcus Bales" >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:25:27 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Americans Target & Kill Journalists from >>Al-Jazeera & Reuters, Again >>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>On 9 Apr 2003 at 7:33, Gabriel Gudding wrote: >> > >Fury at US as attacks kill three journalists >> > >Al-Jazeera quits Iraq as Americans accused over deaths >> > >Suzanne Goldenberg in Baghdad, Rory McCarthy in Doha, >> > >Jonathan Steele in Amman and Brian Whitaker >> > >Wednesday April 9, 2003 >> > >The Guardian >> > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,932809,00.html >> >>Do you really believe the accusation that US troops are targeting >>journalists? >> >> >>Marcus Bales >> >>marcus at designerglass.com >>http://www.designerglass.com >> >> >> >> >>--__--__-- >> >>Message: 11 >>From: "Marcus Bales" >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:25:27 -0400 >>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons >>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> > Marcus, I've got to run to class right now but just quickly, you're >>dead wrong >> > about Dewey -- because you misread how he construes experience. I >>realize this >> > may devolve into dueling quotes but, just as a place to start here are >>a couple >> > to consider: >> >>Sorry, I had a dayful of appointments and couldn't get back to you, >>but denying that philosophy is a form of knowledge is not to deny >>control, reason, and responsibility. The man's life is a testament to >>control, reason, and responsibility, and so is his writing and >>thought. To hold that Dewey's position is to oppose control, reason, >>and, and responsibility is like holding that a computer chip is >>opposed to silicon: his life, work, and thought are made up of >>control, reason, and responsibility. >> >>The position you seem to think he takes with regard to art as >>experience is a calculated one -- controlled, reasonable, and >>responsible -- in reaction to a particular mode of response to and >>creation of art that Dewey holds is deadening rather than quickening. >>But the idea that Dewey's position is that the artist need have none >>of control, reason, or responsibility is absurd. >> >>Magee quoting Dewey: >> > "A philosophy animated, be it consciously or unconsciously, by the >>strivings of >> > men to achieve democracy will construe liberty as meaning a universe in >>which >> > there is real uncertainty and contingency, a world which is not all in, >>and >> > never will be, a world which in some respect is incomplete and in the >>making, >> > and in these respects may be made this way or that according as men >>judge, >> > prize, love and labor...a genuine field of novelty, of real and >>unpredictable >> > increments to existence, a field for experimentation and invention" >>(2:851)<< >> >>None of which argues that artists ought to throw over control, >>reason, or responsibility in favor of slack randomness. The very >>terms in which he puts this, "...in the MAKING ... may be MADE this >>way or that according as men prize, love, and labor ..." eviscerates >>the notion that Dewey's position is one of abandoning control, >>reason, or responsibility. He is talking about directed efforts >>within an overarching theory of making meaning my MAKING meaning. He >>doesn't say we merely find meaning in random collations, or in >>congeries of images, or in heaps of words. >> >>Magee quoting Dewey: >> > " ...As an organism increases in >> > complexity, the rhythms of struggle and consummation in its relation to >>its >> > environment are varied and prolonged, and they come to include within >> > themselves an endless variety of subrhythms. The designs of living are >>widened >> > and enriched. Fulfillment is more massive and more subtly shaded...The >>process >> > of organic life is variation...Demand for variety is the manifestation >>of the >> > fact that being alive we seek to live, until we are cowed by fear or >>dulled by >> > routine. The need of life itself pushes out into the unknown" (AE 23, >>168).<< >> >>You might as well argue that Dewey was promoting and advocating free >>love from this: promoting and advocating the destruction of all >>institutions, of marriage, of government, of art, of everything -- >>argue that Dewey was a wild-eyed anarcho-radical devoted to the blind >>and undirected pursuit of pure variety as to argue that this passage >>shows that Dewey was arguing for an art that lacks control, reason, >>or responsibility. Ripped from the context of Dewey's life and >>thought this passage might be used to argue that we ought not keep >>our promises or support our children because to do either would be to >>become mired in dull routine. Are you really willing to say that >>Dewey was a man who argued for that kind of view of life? >> >>Magee quoting Dewey: >> > "The artist," Dewey writes, "is a born experimenter...because he has to >>express >> > an intensely individualized experience through means and materials that >>belong >> > to the common public world...Only because the artist operates >>experimentally >> > does he open new aspects and qualities in familiar scenes and objects" >>(AE 144) >> >>Dewey does not argue that the artist's expression has to be without >>control, reason, or responsibility, though, nor that "new aspects and >>qualities in familiar scenes and objects" are to be presented without >>control, reason, or responsibility. The "means and materials that >>belong to the common public world", in fact, argues strongly that >>Dewey's position is one of advocating control, reason, and >>responsibility in expression of those new aspects and qualities -- >>because the "common public world" has little interest in or time for >>the wilder-eyed varieties of "means and materials". >> >>Magee quoting Dewey: >> > Now look at what he has to say about the New Criticism and Eliot: >> > "Without any special competency in philosophic thought, they are >> > ready to pronounce ex cathedra judgements, because they are >> > comitted to some conceptio of the relation of man to the universe >> > that flourished in some past epoch. They reaged its >> > restoration as essential to the redemption of society from its >> > present evil state" (AE 319).<< >> >>This sounds just like a condemnation of the notions of the most >>contemporary of artists, those who are most committed to the notion >>that randomness is significant and carelessness is art. It could be a >>condemnation of any group that condemned control, reason, and >>responsibility in the contemporary world, who sought solace in the >>dogmatism of an ideology. >> >>But there is a difference between the dogmatism of an ideology and >>the flexible pursuit of significance by the means of art through >>control, reason, and responsibility. Your quotations are simply not >>persuasive that Dewey, at least, was an advocate of abandoning >>control, reason, and responsibility. His whole method of being and >>writing refutes the notion that he regarded control, reason, and >>responsibility as accoutrements to be abandoned in favor of >>randomness and carelessness. >> >>Magee: >> > Of course, I don't doubt that you can go through Dewey's corpus and >>fine >> > sentences which would seem to contradict the general trend of his work >>- as >> > Emerson says, "books belong to the eyes that see them" - but if I were >>you I'd >> > think twice about hanging your hat on Dewey. Eliot's clearly your man, >>for >> > better or worse. Eliot's mentor was of course William James's Harvard >>nemesis >> > F.H. Bradley, and on and on it goes. There's a good reason, a very >>good >> > reason, that Dewey's champions in the poetry world are WC Williams and >>Charles >> > Olson and not T.S. Eliot and Richard Wilbur.<< >> >>Well, as you quote, books belong to the eyes that see them. I think >>WC Williams and Charles Olson got the wrong things out of Dewey -- >>and if you are right in saying they got an authority in Dewey to >>appeal to in advocating randomness and carelessness instead of >>control, reason, and responsibility as among the foundations of art, >>then I think they are simply wrong about Dewey's thought and work. >> >>Holding someone such as Dewey out as an advocate of abandoning >>control, reason, and responsibility, is like holding someone such as >>Prince Kropotkin out as an advocate of fascism -- it's just too >>absurd. >> >>Marcus Bales >> >>marcus at designerglass.com >>http://www.designerglass.com >> >> >> >> >>--__--__-- >> >>Message: 12 >>Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 09:32:28 -0400 >>From: Michael Snider >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Americans Target & Kill Journalists from >>Al-Jazeera & Reuters, Again >>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> >>On Wednesday, April 09, 2003, at 08:33AM, Gabriel Gudding >> wrote: >> >>Another disengenuous subject line. There's no question but that the >>troops screwed up in these instances, but they were not targeting >>journalists. The tank crew mistakenly thought they had come under fire >>from Palestine Hotel, and the Al Jazeera offices were next to govt >>buildings--the reason other news organizations were no longer in that >>area. >> >>And I notice, Gabriel, that you've made no mention of the good news out of >>Iraq--that, whenever and wherever the Iraqis no longer fear Saddam, they >>welcome the US/UK trops. (No doubt that will change in Tikrit, and we'll >>hear news of that from you.) Nor have you mentioned things like this >>article from Reuters >>(http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=IYFQF0UH2FTHICRBAEKSFFA?type=focusIraqNews&storyID=2534147) >>which reports that volunteers for Saddam from other countries feared the >>Iraqi people more than the Americans. >> >>"Salaam, a Lebanese Shi'ite Muslim, said he was unprepared for the >>hostility of some Iraqis to volunteers like himself. >> >>'I went there to be a martyr, not to be murdered by a brother,' he told >>Reuters. 'We went there to help them liberate their country, and all they >>did was shoot us in the back.'" >> >>Of course, what has happened so far was the easy part--now comes the task >>of helping the Iraqis form a new government. Here is where we really find >>out Bush's intentions--and I hope Blair can keep him on the straight and >>narrow. >> >> >>--__--__-- >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >>End of New-Poetry Digest _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 9 17:23:42 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 17:23:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender Buttons, Dewey In-Reply-To: <3E93E707.28766.1514AD@localhost> References: <1049812650.3e92deaa8743a@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <3E94571E.4043.1CAFE84@localhost> Mike Magee: > ... What I had meant to say at the beginning > was that Dewey steadfastly believes that philosophy and art are > *motivated* acts -- on this we probably agree -- but that "control" was > not one of his over-arching rubrics, while "experiment" surely was.<< This still seems like it might be semantic disagreement, since what constitutes "experiment" differs widely depending on context. We need to speak a little more concretely, or at least with more examples, I think. If you're going to take the position that picking random words out of the dictionary is making a poem, for example, because it is an "experiment", I'm not sure I can agree. Or, rather, I can agree it's an experiment of some kind, but not an experiment as I think of it: forming an hypothesis, devising a standard against which to test the hypothesis, testing it through application, and judging the result against the standard to see if it is a successful experiment or not. The notion of experiment without hypothesis or standards against which to test for success seems to me to be something else entirely than experiment. Mike Magee: > You are the one equating > a lack of control with "randomness" and "carelessness" not I, and surely > not Dewey. The possibility of a *tactical* abandoning of control is > something Dewey theorized in a hundred different ways ...<< But a "tactical abandoning of control" is different in every way I can think of from the argument that control ought to be abandoned completely on principle. It is against abandoning control completely on principle that I argue -- and I think Dewey's position on this is merely a matter of ceding "control" during the experiment to the forces in the circumstances being tested by the experiment. The notion that Dewey was an avatar of lack of control and an advocate of randomness as a principle by which to make and evaluate art seems as absurd to me after reading your posts as it seemed to me before. > "One may without presumption believe that even if Emerson has no system, > nonetheless he is the prophet and herald of any system which democracy > may henceforth construct and hold by, and that when democracy has > articulated itself, it will have no difficulty in finding itself already > proposed in Emerson."< But "has no system" is not "has no control" or "has no reason" or "has no responsibility". It is precisely this kind of casual conflation of "no system" with "no control" that seems to me to be a fundamental error. Mike Magee: > This is a causality, not a coincidence. It is precisely Emerson's > systemlessness, according to Dewey, which makes him the prophet of the > paradoxical democratic "system." Again, "will *construe* liberty as > meaning a universe in which there is real uncertainty and contingency." > Do you think that Dewey somehow excludes language from this universe?< No -- and that's my point. Language is all about control and organization, and Dewey's concern with, and Emerson's concern with, the myriad ways to use language and be used by it are simply not interpretable as imprecations against control in the use of language or control in one's reaction to the world, or even against attempts to control the world as one interacts with it. Mike Magee: > Look, if you want to argue that the man who said of the work of art that > the "limits of its aesthetic potentialities can be determined only > experimentally by what artists make out of it in practice,"...<< But to try to define the LIMITS by what is experimentally made out of it in practice by artists is different from trying to define the common purpose or the common uses. It is also very far from a rallying cry proclaiming that art inheres only in experiments at the limits. Mike Magee: > who railed against the New > Criticism all his life, and who insisted that "all ranking of higher and > lower are, ultimately, out of place and stupid" somehow speaks for the > New Formalism, be my guest.<< Well, what a damned hypocrite he was, then, this man who went way out of his way to try to be a better philosopher every day, who strove his whole life to write better, to think better, and more clearly. Why bother with a liar and a cheat such as John Dewey who manifests in his own life and work the very qualities that he says he despises? Let's agree to abandon Dewey instead of abandoning control, if you really think that Dewey was serious in his notion that in saying "ultimately" in that context he meant in day to day life and work all rankings of higher and lower are out of place and stupid. The very sentence itself is a refutation of its premise, since claiming that there is anything out of place and stupid would be a ranking that is itself out of place and stupid. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 9 17:28:07 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:28:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Lynn Emanuel, "Inside Gertrude Stein" References: Message-ID: <003101c2fede$eacb9300$e375fea9@j1c1k6> I think my button was a lot more like Gertie than the Emanuel text. Weird. I don't like Stein anywhere as much as Emanuel seems to but I think I understand and even appreciate) her much better. . . . I've preserved my button, by the way--as the introduction to a wacked out column of mine that reviews the proceedings of the avant garde symposium at Ohio State a while back. It should appear in the next issue of Lost & Found Times. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 11:28 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Lynn Emanuel, "Inside Gertrude Stein" > > Inside Gertrude Stein > > Right now as I am talking to you and as you are being talked to, without > letup, it is becoming clear that gertrude stein has hijacked me and that this > feeling that you are having now as you read this, that this is what it feels like to > be inside gertrude stein. This is what it feels like to be a huge typewriter in a > dress. Yes, I feel we have gotten inside gertrude stein, and of course it is dark > inside the enormous gertrude, it is like being locked up in a refrigerator lit only > by a smiling rind of cheese. Being inside gertrude is like being inside a monu- > ment made of a cloud which is always moving across the sky which is also > always moving. Gertrude is a huge galleon of cloud anchored to the ground by > one small tether, yes, I see it down there, do you see that tiny snail glued to the > tackboard of the landscape? That is alice. So, I am inside gertrude; we belong > to each other, she and I, and it is so wonderful because I have always been a > thin woman inside of whom a big woman is screaming to get out, and she's out > now and if a river could type this is how it would sound, pure and complicated > and enormous. Now we are lilting across the countryside, and we are walking > and if the wind could type it would sound like this, ongoing and repetitious, > abstracting and stylizing everything, like our famous haircut painted by Picasso. > Because when you are inside our haircut you understand that all the flotsam > and jetsam of hairdo have been cleared away (like the forests from the New > World) so that the skull can show through grinning and feasting on the alarm > it has created. I am now, alarmingly, inside gertrude's head and I am thinking > that I may only be a thought she has had when she imagined that she and alice > were dead and gone and someone had to carry on the work of being gertrude > stein, and so I am receiving, from beyond the grave, radioactive isotopes of her > genius saying, take up my work, become gertrude stein. > > Because someone must be gertrude stein, someone must save us from the liter- > alists and realists, and narratives of the beginning and end, someone must be a > river that can type. And why not I? Gertrude is insisting on the fact that while > I am a subgenius, weighing one hundred five pounds, and living in a small town > with an enormous furry male husband who is always in his Cadillac Eldorado > driving off to sell something to people who do not deserve the bad luck of this > merchandise in their lives--that these facts would not be a problem for > gertrude stein. Gertrude and I feel that, for instance, *Patriarchal Poetry* when > (like an avalanche that can type) she is burying the patriarchy, still there per- > sists a sense of condescending affection. So, while I'm a thin, heterosexual sub- > genius, nevertheless gertrude has chosen me as her tool, just as she chose the > patriarchy as a tool for ending the patriarchy. And because I have become her > tool, now, in a sense, gertrude is inside me. It's tough. Having gertrude inside > me is like having swallowed an ocean line that can type, and, while I feel like > a very small coat closet with a bear in it, gertrude and I feel that I must tell you > that gertrude does not care. She is using me to get her message across, to say, I > am lost, I am beset by literalists and narratives of the beginning and middle and > end, help me. And so, yes, I say, yes, I am here, gertrude, because we feel, > gertrude and I, that there is real urgency in our voice (like a sob that can type) > and that things are very bad for her because she is lost, beset by the literalists > and realists, her own enormousness crushing her, and we must find her and take > her into ourselves, even though I am the least likely of saviors and have been > chosen perhaps as a last resort, yes, definitely, gertrude is saying to me, you are > the least likely of saviors, you are my last choice and my last resort. > > --Lynn Emanuel > > fr. *PEN America: A Journal for Writers and Readers* > Issue 4 (Volume 2), 2002 > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 9 17:28:48 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:28:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <00ee01c2fead$564b7be0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <003701c2fedf$02a93180$e375fea9@j1c1k6> > Did he really say, of two abstract paintings, "I have no idea what they > mean"? > > Tad Richards From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 9 17:33:28 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:33:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: Message-ID: <004301c2fedf$aa92ba60$e375fea9@j1c1k6> > If he did, perhaps there's hope for him. I mean, imagine him telling > us what they mean. I mean, really. > Hal Surely, it would depend on the context. If he thinks they SHOULD "mean" the way all his poetry, and poetry he likes (so far as I know) does, it would be one thing; if he realizes asking for conventional meaning from abstract art is silly, it would be another. --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 9 17:54:18 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:54:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <90.35492583.2bc5f08a@cs.com> In a message dated 4/9/2003 4:31:29 PM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > >Did he really say, of two abstract paintings, "I have no idea what they > >mean"? > > > >Tad Richards Well, Tad, some abstract paintings mean more than others, viz. Bob Cobb's. And we didn't see these two, did we? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 9 17:50:16 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:50:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <004301c2fedf$aa92ba60$e375fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: { Surely, it would depend on the context. If he thinks they SHOULD "mean" the { way all his poetry, and poetry he likes (so far as I know) does, it would be { one thing; if he realizes asking for conventional meaning from abstract art { is silly, it would be another. { { --Bob G. I'm sure (well, not really sure) about what you think DG might think, Bob. I was just being hopeful is all. Chalk it up to that heady the-war -might-be-over-or-almost-over air in the air today. Hal "Cross / a border every day, and leave your luggage in the station." --Wendy Battin Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 9 17:55:12 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:55:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Lynn Emanuel, "Inside Gertrude Stein" In-Reply-To: <1049906406.3e944ce697b46@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: I don't know about Emanuel's Blakean stakes, Michael. I heard her read a few things at the Pittsburgh AWP a few years back. And I think I have one of her books around here somewhere (don't remember which it was). I'll have to go hunting for it now that you've got my curiosity up. I seem to remember laughter at her AWP reading, but more of the amused sort, as I recall. Hal Centcom Briefings Sonnets http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/centcombriefingssonnets.html Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Thanks for this Hal. Emanuel is an interesting case of someone who tries to { stake ground on the Blakan borders, you know. Way back when I was invited to { the Frost Festival of Poetry (they'd shudder at me now no doubt!) I heard her { give a talk on Language Poetry (this was around the time The Dig had been { published). I wish I remembered more about the talk, I was twenty and { uninterested. What I can recall is her being fairly laughed out of the { building by a very skeptical audience. -m. { { Quoting Halvard Johnson : { { > { > Inside Gertrude Stein { > { > Right now as I am talking to you and as you are being talked to, without { > letup, it is becoming clear that gertrude stein has hijacked me and that { > this { > feeling that you are having now as you read this, that this is what it feels { > like to { > be inside gertrude stein. This is what it feels like to be a huge typewriter { > in a { > dress. Yes, I feel we have gotten inside gertrude stein, and of course it is { > dark { > inside the enormous gertrude, it is like being locked up in a refrigerator { > lit only { > by a smiling rind of cheese. Being inside gertrude is like being inside a { > monu- { > ment made of a cloud which is always moving across the sky which is also { > always moving. Gertrude is a huge galleon of cloud anchored to the ground by { > one small tether, yes, I see it down there, do you see that tiny snail glued { > to the { > tackboard of the landscape? That is alice. So, I am inside gertrude; we { > belong { > to each other, she and I, and it is so wonderful because I have always been { > a { > thin woman inside of whom a big woman is screaming to get out, and she's out { > now and if a river could type this is how it would sound, pure and { > complicated { > and enormous. Now we are lilting across the countryside, and we are walking { > and if the wind could type it would sound like this, ongoing and { > repetitious, { > abstracting and stylizing everything, like our famous haircut painted by { > Picasso. { > Because when you are inside our haircut you understand that all the flotsam { > and jetsam of hairdo have been cleared away (like the forests from the New { > World) so that the skull can show through grinning and feasting on the alarm { > it has created. I am now, alarmingly, inside gertrude's head and I am { > thinking { > that I may only be a thought she has had when she imagined that she and { > alice { > were dead and gone and someone had to carry on the work of being gertrude { > stein, and so I am receiving, from beyond the grave, radioactive isotopes of { > her { > genius saying, take up my work, become gertrude stein. { > { > Because someone must be gertrude stein, someone must save us from the liter- { > alists and realists, and narratives of the beginning and end, someone must be { > a { > river that can type. And why not I? Gertrude is insisting on the fact that { > while { > I am a subgenius, weighing one hundred five pounds, and living in a small { > town { > with an enormous furry male husband who is always in his Cadillac Eldorado { > driving off to sell something to people who do not deserve the bad luck of { > this { > merchandise in their lives--that these facts would not be a problem for { > gertrude stein. Gertrude and I feel that, for instance, *Patriarchal Poetry* { > when { > (like an avalanche that can type) she is burying the patriarchy, still there { > per- { > sists a sense of condescending affection. So, while I'm a thin, heterosexual { > sub- { > genius, nevertheless gertrude has chosen me as her tool, just as she chose { > the { > patriarchy as a tool for ending the patriarchy. And because I have become { > her { > tool, now, in a sense, gertrude is inside me. It's tough. Having gertrude { > inside { > me is like having swallowed an ocean line that can type, and, while I feel { > like { > a very small coat closet with a bear in it, gertrude and I feel that I must { > tell you { > that gertrude does not care. She is using me to get her message across, to { > say, I { > am lost, I am beset by literalists and narratives of the beginning and middle { > and { > end, help me. And so, yes, I say, yes, I am here, gertrude, because we feel, { > gertrude and I, that there is real urgency in our voice (like a sob that can { > type) { > and that things are very bad for her because she is lost, beset by the { > literalists { > and realists, her own enormousness crushing her, and we must find her and { > take { > her into ourselves, even though I am the least likely of saviors and have { > been { > chosen perhaps as a last resort, yes, definitely, gertrude is saying to me, { > you are { > the least likely of saviors, you are my last choice and my last resort. { > { > --Lynn Emanuel { > { > fr. *PEN America: A Journal for Writers and Readers* { > Issue 4 (Volume 2), 2002 { > { > { > Hal { > { > Halvard Johnson { > =============== { > email: halvard at earthlink.net { > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { > { > { > _______________________________________________ { > New-Poetry mailing list { > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { > { { { From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 9 18:07:42 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 18:07:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <00ee01c2fead$564b7be0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <003701c2fedf$02a93180$e375fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <009701c2fee4$72000e00$e375fea9@j1c1k6> Don't how I posted the following. Apologies. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 5:28 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA > > > Did he really say, of two abstract paintings, "I have no idea what they > > mean"? > > > > Tad Richards From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 9 18:06:15 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 18:06:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: Message-ID: <008a01c2fee4$3e141fa0$e375fea9@j1c1k6> > { Surely, it would depend on the context. If he thinks they SHOULD "mean" the > { way all his poetry, and poetry he likes (so far as I know) does, it would be > { one thing; if he realizes asking for conventional meaning from abstract art > { is silly, it would be another. > > { --Bob G. > > I'm sure (well, not really sure) about what you think DG might think, Aw, shucks, Hal, I tried so hard to hide it! > Bob. I was just being hopeful is all. Chalk it up to that heady the-war > -might-be-over-or-almost-over air in the air today. > > Hal Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Gioia actually likes abstract art--for what I'd call the proper reasons. After all, it IS long-certified. --Bob G. From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Apr 9 19:10:45 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 19:10:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <20030409163754.5108.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003b01c2feed$407f8b40$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> I keep thinking of something Marilyn Nelson once wrote -- perhaps on CAP-L -- about responding to a student who said, "I don't get what this poem is about." Nelson asked, "Did you go home for Thanksgiving." "Yes." "Did you see your family?" "Yes." "What's your mother about?" My problem with Gioia is something like that. I have no idea what "I don't know what they mean" means. It's a pointless putdown, and it represents a real anti-art form of conformist thinking. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 12:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA I remember sitting in school as those around me discussed poems by people like John Ashbery--I know many will shell me for this, but I don't care. I felt completely confused, and for a good long while felt inadequate because that kind of abstract writing made no sense to me. Now, I don't give a damn. I'm not about to pretend that I understand something just because "it's art." I've got too much to do. To hell with that kind of conformist thinking. Grr.... Jeff Newberry TheOldMole wrote: Did he really say, of two abstract paintings, "I have no idea what they mean"? Tad Richards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 10:44 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA > An article/interview on Gioia at the NEA. > > http://www.washingtontimes.com/arts/20030405-74727453.htm > > Paul Lake > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetr! y ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 9 19:46:57 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 19:46:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <003b01c2feed$407f8b40$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: Tad, I don't quite see why you take that remark of Gioia's as a put-down. As Bob G. pointed out, it depends a lot on context --and on tone of voice. For it to be a put-down, one must assume that DG says that in a sneering sort of way, as though the paintings' meanings ought to be clear for all to see. Hal My problem with Gioia is something like that. I have no idea what "I don't know what they mean" means. It's a pointless putdown, and it represents a real anti-art form of conformist thinking. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aepstein at english.fsu.edu Mon Apr 7 21:07:47 2003 From: aepstein at english.fsu.edu (Andrew Epstein) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 21:07:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "the other tradition" In-Reply-To: <015c01c2fd6a$406ad8a0$86361c40@Emily> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20030407205909.0259fa60@english.fsu.edu> Tony, "The Other Tradition" is the title of a (great) poem in Houseboat Days (1977). It's also in Collected Poems. A few years earlier, he used the phrase in "The System" (second of Three Poems, written in 1971) -- where he writes "There was, however, a residue, a kind of fiction that developed parallel to the classic truths of daily life (as it was in that heroic but commonplace age) as they unfolded with the forseeable majesty of a holocaust, an unfrightening one, and went unrecognized, drawing force and grandeur from this like the illegitimate offspring of a king. It is this 'other tradition' which we propose to explore" (p. 124 in Collected Poems). Take care, Andrew At 05:59 PM 4/7/03 -0700, you wrote: >Ashberyites (if any are out there): > >Does the phrase "the other tradition" appear in any poems by Ashbery? >I know of his collection of essays with a similiar title, but does he use >the phrase in his poetry? > >Thanks in advance, >Tony > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 9 20:51:34 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:51:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <20030409163754.5108.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> <003b01c2feed$407f8b40$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <002801c2fefb$571474c0$e375fea9@j1c1k6> I keep thinking of something Marilyn Nelson once wrote -- perhaps on CAP-L -- about responding to a student who said, "I don't get what this poem is about." Nelson asked, "Did you go home for Thanksgiving." "Yes." "Did you see your family?" "Yes." "What's your mother about?" My problem with Gioia is something like that. I have no idea what "I don't know what they mean" means. It's a pointless putdown, and it represents a real anti-art form of conformist thinking. I was hoping he said something like, "I don't know what these mean, but I love them," but I finally went to the article in which he is quoted and learned he said, alas (about "a pair of inexplicable abstract paintings adorning the walls), "I have no idea what they mean. I think we'll be replacing them with something more representational." --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 9 21:03:47 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:03:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: Message-ID: <004901c2fefd$0d89a260$e375fea9@j1c1k6> I just read the whole article in the Washington Times. I won't blame Gioia for it. Nice to see a nice mention of new-poetry's Paul Lake, but other than that it was pretty stupid. I hope to comment on it in detail because several things about what Gioia plans to have the NEA do disgust me. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Faustina1 at aol.com Wed Apr 9 21:21:30 2003 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:21:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <20.ea0ddfd.2bc6211a@aol.com> I like Dana Gioia, but would have to see the rejected works and their replacements to make any kind of judgment on the art issue. Seems like we have one of four propositions: 1. He wants to replace abstract crap with representational art. 2. He wants to replace abstract crap with representational crap. 3. He wants to replace abstract art with representational crap. 4. He wants to replace abstract art with representational art. I sympathize entirely with #1, and have some sympathy with #4, because after all, you like what you like. With #2 or #3 we are in trouble. Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 9 21:59:03 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:59:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <1a5.121f7d5a.2bc629e7@cs.com> In a message dated 4/9/2003 6:58:17 PM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > Tad, I don't quite see why you take that remark of Gioia's as > a put-down. As Bob G. pointed out, it depends a lot on context > --and on tone of voice. For it to be a put-down, one must assume > that DG says that in a sneering sort of way, as though the paintings' > meanings ought to be clear for all to see. > > Hal > > >> My problem with Gioia is something like that. I have no idea what "I >> don't know what they mean" means. It's a pointless putdown, and it >> represents a real anti-art form of conformist thinking. >> > Hal, take a couple of Advil and go to bed early. A casual remark like the one you posted (please note the name of the reporter) shouldn't be cause for leaping to the barricades. I know Dana's taste in art pretty well (as a matter of fact, I once gave him a copy of an abstract expressionist pen and ink, which he did not hide in the barn), and, like his taste in music (opera to jazz to hip-hop), his taste in art is pretty eclectic. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 9 21:59:39 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:59:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <18d.1855ab17.2bc62a0b@cs.com> In a message dated 4/9/2003 7:21:46 PM Central Standard Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > > My problem with Gioia is something like that. I have no idea what "I don't > know what they mean" means. It's a pointless putdown, and it represents a > real anti-art form of conformist thinking. > > > Please take three Advil instead of two. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 9 22:04:54 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 22:04:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <54.eb0829b.2bc62b46@cs.com> In a message dated 4/9/2003 8:22:57 PM Central Standard Time, Faustina1 at aol.com writes: > > I like Dana Gioia, but would have to see the rejected works and their > replacements to make any kind of judgment on the art issue. Seems like we > have one of four propositions: > > 1. He wants to replace abstract crap with representational art. > 2. He wants to replace abstract crap with representational crap. > 3. He wants to replace abstract art with representational crap. > 4. He wants to replace abstract art with representational art. > > I sympathize entirely with #1, and have some sympathy with #4, because > after all, you like what you like. With #2 or #3 we are in trouble. Janet I have it on good authority that Dana plans to fund a major retrospective of a neglected genius of American representational art at MOMA. Herewith a few pre-opening samples: http://besmirched.tripod.com/walter.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Faustina1 at aol.com Wed Apr 9 22:38:01 2003 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 22:38:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <1cf.71cdb38.2bc63309@aol.com> In a message dated 4/9/2003 10:05:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > Ho, ho! I needed that--it's been a long day. Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbyrne at risd.edu Wed Apr 9 22:42:43 2003 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 22:42:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Brenda Coultas at RUSD 4.10.03 Message-ID: For those of you in Providence or Boston or thereabouts, BRENDA COULTAS will be reading at Rhode Island School of Design (Carr Haus Coffee Shop, corner of Waterman & Benefit), at 7pm Thursday. Brenda Coultas's book A Handmade Museum will be published by Coffee House Press on April 15th, 2003: "When the wind blows keep Brenda Coultas's book by your side." --Bernadette Mayer From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Wed Apr 9 22:42:07 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 22:42:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Lynn Emanuel, "Inside Gertrude Stein" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1049942527.3e94d9ff4df3b@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Hal, like I said, I was drawing on old memories from my formative years. I am by no means an authority on Emanuel's work and, if we want to take at face value that that there are poles to American poetry (for the sake of argument, say, Bruce Andrews and Brad Leithauser) then I would hardly put Emanuel smack in the middle. My only point was that she seemed to me to want to be in the middle, somewhere. -m. Quoting Halvard Johnson : > I don't know about Emanuel's Blakean stakes, Michael. I heard her > read a few things at the Pittsburgh AWP a few years back. And I > think I have one of her books around here somewhere (don't remember > which it was). I'll have to go hunting for it now that you've got my > curiosity up. I seem to remember laughter at her AWP reading, but > more of the amused sort, as I recall. > > Hal > > Centcom Briefings Sonnets > > http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/centcombriefingssonnets.html > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > { Thanks for this Hal. Emanuel is an interesting case of someone who > tries to > { stake ground on the Blakan borders, you know. Way back when I was > invited to > { the Frost Festival of Poetry (they'd shudder at me now no doubt!) I > heard her > { give a talk on Language Poetry (this was around the time The Dig had > been > { published). I wish I remembered more about the talk, I was twenty and > { uninterested. What I can recall is her being fairly laughed out of the > > { building by a very skeptical audience. -m. > { > { Quoting Halvard Johnson : > { > { > > { > Inside Gertrude Stein > { > > { > Right now as I am talking to you and as you are being talked to, > without > { > letup, it is becoming clear that gertrude stein has hijacked me and > that > { > this > { > feeling that you are having now as you read this, that this is what it > feels > { > like to > { > be inside gertrude stein. This is what it feels like to be a huge > typewriter > { > in a > { > dress. Yes, I feel we have gotten inside gertrude stein, and of course > it is > { > dark > { > inside the enormous gertrude, it is like being locked up in a > refrigerator > { > lit only > { > by a smiling rind of cheese. Being inside gertrude is like being > inside a > { > monu- > { > ment made of a cloud which is always moving across the sky which is > also > { > always moving. Gertrude is a huge galleon of cloud anchored to the > ground by > { > one small tether, yes, I see it down there, do you see that tiny snail > glued > { > to the > { > tackboard of the landscape? That is alice. So, I am inside gertrude; > we > { > belong > { > to each other, she and I, and it is so wonderful because I have always > been > { > a > { > thin woman inside of whom a big woman is screaming to get out, and > she's out > { > now and if a river could type this is how it would sound, pure and > { > complicated > { > and enormous. Now we are lilting across the countryside, and we are > walking > { > and if the wind could type it would sound like this, ongoing and > { > repetitious, > { > abstracting and stylizing everything, like our famous haircut painted > by > { > Picasso. > { > Because when you are inside our haircut you understand that all the > flotsam > { > and jetsam of hairdo have been cleared away (like the forests from the > New > { > World) so that the skull can show through grinning and feasting on the > alarm > { > it has created. I am now, alarmingly, inside gertrude's head and I am > { > thinking > { > that I may only be a thought she has had when she imagined that she > and > { > alice > { > were dead and gone and someone had to carry on the work of being > gertrude > { > stein, and so I am receiving, from beyond the grave, radioactive > isotopes of > { > her > { > genius saying, take up my work, become gertrude stein. > { > > { > Because someone must be gertrude stein, someone must save us from the > liter- > { > alists and realists, and narratives of the beginning and end, someone > must be > { > a > { > river that can type. And why not I? Gertrude is insisting on the fact > that > { > while > { > I am a subgenius, weighing one hundred five pounds, and living in a > small > { > town > { > with an enormous furry male husband who is always in his Cadillac > Eldorado > { > driving off to sell something to people who do not deserve the bad > luck of > { > this > { > merchandise in their lives--that these facts would not be a problem > for > { > gertrude stein. Gertrude and I feel that, for instance, *Patriarchal > Poetry* > { > when > { > (like an avalanche that can type) she is burying the patriarchy, still > there > { > per- > { > sists a sense of condescending affection. So, while I'm a thin, > heterosexual > { > sub- > { > genius, nevertheless gertrude has chosen me as her tool, just as she > chose > { > the > { > patriarchy as a tool for ending the patriarchy. And because I have > become > { > her > { > tool, now, in a sense, gertrude is inside me. It's tough. Having > gertrude > { > inside > { > me is like having swallowed an ocean line that can type, and, while I > feel > { > like > { > a very small coat closet with a bear in it, gertrude and I feel that I > must > { > tell you > { > that gertrude does not care. She is using me to get her message > across, to > { > say, I > { > am lost, I am beset by literalists and narratives of the beginning and > middle > { > and > { > end, help me. And so, yes, I say, yes, I am here, gertrude, because we > feel, > { > gertrude and I, that there is real urgency in our voice (like a sob > that can > { > type) > { > and that things are very bad for her because she is lost, beset by > the > { > literalists > { > and realists, her own enormousness crushing her, and we must find her > and > { > take > { > her into ourselves, even though I am the least likely of saviors and > have > { > been > { > chosen perhaps as a last resort, yes, definitely, gertrude is saying > to me, > { > you are > { > the least likely of saviors, you are my last choice and my last > resort. > { > > { > --Lynn Emanuel > { > > { > fr. *PEN America: A Journal for Writers and Readers* > { > Issue 4 (Volume 2), 2002 > { > > { > > { > Hal > { > > { > Halvard Johnson > { > =============== > { > email: halvard at earthlink.net > { > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > { > > { > > { > _______________________________________________ > { > New-Poetry mailing list > { > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > { > > { > { > { > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 9 22:58:20 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 22:58:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <44.2fe8ce30.2bc637cc@cs.com> For an article on Gioia written by someone other than Terry Ponick, try this one: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24360-2003Apr3.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellogg at duke.edu Wed Apr 9 23:34:27 2003 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 23:34:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <51135535.1049931267@user-152-16-68-20.adsl.duke.edu> I find it sadly unsurprising that the Washington Times does not identify the author of the article, T.L. Ponick, as a Gioian fellow-traveller and editor of a middling New Formie rag (Edge City Review -- is that still around? The title is the best thing about it). David --On Wednesday, April 09, 2003 9:21 PM -0400 Faustina1 at aol.com wrote: > I like Dana Gioia, but would have to see the rejected works and their > replacements to make any kind of judgment on the art issue. Seems like > we have one of four propositions: > > 1. He wants to replace abstract crap with representational art. > 2. He wants to replace abstract crap with representational crap. > 3. He wants to replace abstract art with representational crap. > 4. He wants to replace abstract art with representational art. > > I sympathize entirely with #1, and have some sympathy with #4, because > after all, you like what you like. With #2 or #3 we are in trouble. > Janet From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Apr 9 23:38:43 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 22:38:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel In-Reply-To: <1049942527.3e94d9ff4df3b@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: How about another Lynn Emanuel poem to chew on? The Past Where did she come from, that dig in the ribs? Who is she to pretend she's me and to take on that ditched-in, hopeless tone? Who is this phony yokel? This two-dollar bill, this pig knuckle? Honey, I tell her, my name is Lynn Collins Emanuel, someone whose whole manner says I'm over-educated but recovering, I have been to Europe and I don't even recall that stain in the road that you refer to as Ely, Nevada; oh please, I think, give me a break, woman, I mean who would believe this arms-akimbo-in-faded-calico West Coast depiction of the West? Get out of here with your fibs and lesions, your deaf ear wired to its hearing aid, your coughs and wattles. I know stories about Gertrude Stein in her silk socks drunk on Bordeaux in the garden. What do I want to sit at your table for, to be passed the faded confetti of the succotash, the turkey trussed like a hostage? Listen, I am money in the bank, swank, with it, well informed, full of a Semitic glamour, doleful, sleek and dark, shit, honey, how did you get by the bouncer, editor-within-me, Mr. Right? And why am I now, like a new tenant, moving into the little varicosity on your left calf, the nylons knotted just above the knee and, further, into the hands that held that soft gray lump of rag and washed, and washed again the greasy Formica of the dinner table? How did I get to be at the head of a long line of unlucky women with their propensity for poverty, influenza, weak chests, and bad judgment, how did their troubles get to be mine? And no, I don't know who could be in that hand-dug grave at the Rosebud Cemetery, the little dusty picket fence of teeth smiling up from that too-shallow niche is not mine. I don't know who she is. I've never seen her. I was in Paris at the time. --Lynn Emanuel. *The Dig*. U Illinois, 1992. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Apr 9 23:45:56 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <20030410034556.EB40E11EC7@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:54:18 EDT Size: 3211 URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Apr 9 23:55:37 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 22:55:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <51135535.1049931267@user-152-16-68-20.adsl.duke.edu> Message-ID: Here's the sentence that stopped me in the Gioia piece by Ponick: "As a poet, Mr. Gioia eventually became a leader in the expansive/new formalist poetry movement, which supports a return to poetic traditions including, but not limited to, poetry in meter and rhyme, as well as verse whose subject matter involves real-world experiences rather than the narcissistic concerns of the poet." I don't think the pugilistic approach evinced here does Gioia any good, but I'm not inclined to hold him responsible for the flourishes of his interviewer. Gioia's seldom so simplistic in his summations, thank goodness. Interesting dichotomy there, in any event: on the one hand, "real-world experiences" (as opposed to otherworldly ones? Are we supposed to think of Dante here? Milton? Coleridge?). And on the other hand, "the narcissistic concerns of the poet." At least that's easy to interpret: must mean poems by poets such as Sappho, Dickinson, Herrick, Wordsworth, Yeats, Larkin--always whining about their personal problems, you know? Bunch of self-obsessed cry-babies. . . . I haven't made a study of this, but it seems to me that Gioia's appointment has produced quite a lot of favorable press, from all sorts of directions. A certain amount of predictible carping in the realm of PoBiz, yes, but coming from that so-called "real world," little but praise and admiration. I say more power to Gioia; maybe he can do some real good in his new job. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > From: David Kellogg > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 23:34:27 -0400 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA > > I find it sadly unsurprising that the Washington Times does not identify > the author of the article, T.L. Ponick, as a Gioian fellow-traveller and > editor of a middling New Formie rag (Edge City Review -- is that still > around? The title is the best thing about it). > > David > > From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Apr 10 00:05:08 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <20030410040508.454A54CAD@sitemail.everyone.net> Bob G., The context, when referencing a work of art, whether representational, or not, is uaually thought of as "the content." Do all of the elements of art come together with the principles of art in a unified manner to form a pleasing composition? Works of art that stand the test of time are usually not easily understood at first meeting. Painting the Muse Layered abstractions, forms of luminosity, once camouflaged, now appear as courtesans construing hints of royalty in merging pigments, blue and green, through invisible glazes, the Muse is seen. ? 2000, by Robert R. Cobb Poetry Catamaran "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" Robert R. Cobb AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. http://rrcobb.tripod.com --- "Halvard Johnson" wrote: > >{ Surely, it would depend on the context. If he thinks they SHOULD "mean" the >{ way all his poetry, and poetry he likes (so far as I know) does, it would be >{ one thing; if he realizes asking for conventional meaning from abstract art >{ is silly, it would be another. >{ >{ --Bob G. > >I'm sure (well, not really sure) about what you think DG might think, >Bob. I was just being hopeful is all. Chalk it up to that heady the-war >-might-be-over-or-almost-over air in the air today. > >Hal "Cross / a border every day, and leave > your luggage in the station." > --Wendy Battin >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bardo at optonline.net Thu Apr 10 00:11:02 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:11:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <51135535.1049931267@user-152-16-68-20.adsl.duke.edu> Message-ID: <050501c2ff17$3399bfc0$6d94c044@MULDER> From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 00:11:47 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:11:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <30.3c572feb.2bc64903@cs.com> In a message dated 4/9/2003 10:34:43 PM Central Standard Time, kellogg at duke.edu writes: > > I find it sadly unsurprising that the Washington Times does not identify > the author of the article, T.L. Ponick, as a Gioian fellow-traveller and > editor of a middling New Formie rag (Edge City Review -- is that still > around? The title is the best thing about it). > > David If you will read Frederick Feirstein's article in the current issue of the Edge City Review, you may revise your designation of Mr. Ponick as a fellow-traveler. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 00:21:12 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:21:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel Message-ID: <22.388f247f.2bc64b38@cs.com> In a message dated 4/9/2003 10:38:46 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > The Past > > Where did she come from, that dig > in the ribs? Who is she to pretend > she's me and to take on that ditched-in, > hopeless tone? Who is this phony > yokel? This two-dollar bill, this > pig knuckle? Honey, I tell her, > my name is Lynn Collins Emanuel, > someone whose whole manner says > I'm over-educated but recovering, > I have been to Europe and I don't > even recall that stain in the road > that you refer to as Ely, Nevada; > oh please, I think, give me a break, > woman, I mean who would believe > this arms-akimbo-in-faded-calico > West Coast depiction of the West? > Get out of here with your fibs > and lesions, your deaf ear wired > to its hearing aid, your coughs > and wattles. I know stories about > Gertrude Stein in her silk socks > drunk on Bordeaux in the garden. > What do I want to sit at your table for, > to be passed the faded confetti > of the succotash, the turkey > trussed like a hostage? Listen, > I am money in the bank, swank, > with it, well informed, full > of a Semitic glamour, doleful, > sleek and dark, shit, honey, > how did you get by the bouncer, > editor-within-me, Mr. Right? > And why am I now, like a new tenant, > moving into the little varicosity > on your left calf, the nylons knotted > just above the knee and, further, > into the hands that held that soft > gray lump of rag and washed, > and washed again the greasy > Formica of the dinner table? > How did I get to be at the head > of a long line of unlucky > women with their propensity > for poverty, influenza, > weak chests, and bad judgment, > how did their troubles get to be mine? > And no, I don't know who > could be in that hand-dug grave > at the Rosebud Cemetery, the little > dusty picket fence of teeth smiling up > from that too-shallow niche is > not mine. I don't know who > she is. I've never seen her. > I was in Paris at the time. > > --Lynn Emanuel. *The Dig*. U Illinois, 1992. > This has some of the same kind of energy as Carolyn Kizer's "Pro Femina" sequence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 00:22:58 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:22:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <1d0.6fdab93.2bc64ba2@cs.com> In a message dated 4/9/2003 10:56:46 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > And on the other hand, "the narcissistic concerns of the poet." At least > that's easy to interpret: must mean poems by poets such as Sappho, > Dickinson, Herrick, Wordsworth, Yeats, Larkin--always whining about their > personal problems, you know? Bunch of self-obsessed cry-babies. . . . > As I said to D. Kellogg, please try to read F. Feirstein's screed in the current ECR. I wish I could post it, but I don't think it's available online. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 00:33:06 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:33:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <50.1af71b4b.2bc64e02@cs.com> In a message dated 4/9/2003 10:34:43 PM Central Standard Time, kellogg at duke.edu writes: > > I find it sadly unsurprising that the Washington Times does not identify > the author of the article, T.L. Ponick, as a Gioian fellow-traveller and > editor of a middling New Formie rag (Edge City Review -- is that still > around? The title is the best thing about it). > > David David, I don't think it's the usual custom to adorn newspaper by-lines with the kinds of tags you recommend. Does the Durham Herald-Sun do this? Might be a good idea, come to think of it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 01:05:30 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:05:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: When Turner says that "Art must be life-serving rather than life-destroying," I wonder how he feels about Poets Against the War, for example--as opposed to the sorry pack of Poets For the War. I don't doubt that many good things may eventually come from NewKlassical (but why the K?), but its Manifesto seems like an attempt to hide a political agenda in platitudes. Ponick's characterization of Poets Against the War as "political antics" at least has the value of an up-front put-down, however undeserved--especially in the context of the "life-serving rather than life-destroying" rhetoric from Mr. Turner. Dan ++++++++++++++++ I think that the poem and article below (both of which were earlier posted on this list as links; I publicly responded on the list to the article and privately to Mr. Ponick as well, saying that his rhetorical strategies rivalled those of the late Roy Cohn) should tell us where Mr. Ponick and Prof. Turner are coming from. I don't think I need to further defend Dana Gioia, but I will point out that the new head of the NEA could not well refuse to see a reporter (Mr. Ponick is a regular contributor to the WT) from one of his two hometown newspapers, and that it was Mr. Ponick who requested the quote from Prof. Turner, not Mr. Gioia. A much better article was the one from the Post, the link to which I posted earlier. Reply to the Five Thousand (The organizers of Poets Against the War now claim the signatures of five thousand poets) by Frederick Turner Never till now was I shamed by the name of poet. What could it it even mean, if five thousand "poets" Sign the same misspelled and malicious manifesto? Is not a poet a truth-teller, a seer of inner visions? Why do they make this smell, like the back seat of a taxi? How can they slander the honest officers of the State? What is this rage, this stink of outraged vanity, This resentment that finds at last its lusted-for target, This thick warm glow of the narcissist's solidarity? Why do they always adore the strongman with the mustache (The strongman who takes great care of his personal hygiene And always leaves behind him a sweetness at meetings)? Why do they gnaw and slaver at the hand that feeds them? Why do they hate so this dear dear America That ploddingly over the decades hauls the world into decency? Were they not given at poetry readings all that they wanted-- The jus primae noctis with the prettiest budding poet, The right to be rude to the quivering faculty host, The right to get drunk and spew all over the carpet, The great claim to stand in the footsteps of giants? What is this unslaked vanity, this desire to roll over And over in the stink of of each other's selfrighteousness? What can the young men and women who guard them from harm --Who seek to destroy the poisons designed to kill poets-- What can they think when their danger and grief and devotion And loneliness, losses and pains are counted a crime? And what can I call myself now that "poet" is murdered, That the word cannot mean any more the inner glow Of the vision, the inner voice of the truth that commands me? Who can my friends be, where are my fellow-eccentrics, When all that's called "poet" is just a chewing and chewing On the same miserable piece of cheap cardboard? Where can I go, but with the soldiers to battle, To place my spirit in the bright eye of the bomb, To feel with my wounded belly the pain of the wounded, To stand near my son so my soul will deflect the bullet, To find words for the ancient cities of Uruk Who grope half-blinded into the light of freedom? And so perhaps I must give up the name of poet And leave it to those who have wiped themselves with its paper, And find some name to call myself, now I'm reborn At fifty-nine, having lost the word for my life, Or go nameless at last, where I may serve my people, A spirit who still says Yes to America, Yes To the world of free citizens, Yes to courage, Yes to the hope of a world that is rich and growing, Yes to the fresh wind that blows in the dark of the dawn. The Washington Times No rhyme or reason in poetry snafu February 8, 2003 Section: ARTS Page: D02 T.R. Ponick, THE WASHINGTON TIMES Almost lost in the past week's coverage of the Space Shuttle Columbia's fiery final voyage was a nasty little reminder that America's culture wars are alive and well. The staff of first lady Laura Bush was forced to cancel a Feb. 12 symposium meant to celebrate the poetry of Walt Whitman, Emily Dickinson and Langston Hughes. Advisers foolishly had invited known agitators from the hate-America left to attend this event, and the White House has paid the price in a frenzy of negative publicity. Former U.S. poet laureate Rita Dove released a statement huffing, "The abrupt cancellation of the symposium ... confirms my suspicion that the Bush administration is not interested in poetry when it refuses to remain in the ivory tower, and that this White House does not wish to open its doors to an 'American Voice' that does not echo the administration's misguided policies." American or not, Miss Dove's voice certainly is disingenuous. Poet and editor Sam Hamill, head of tiny Copper Canyon Press and a committed socialist who ran for public office in California under that banner as an anti-war candidate in 1968, was one of several anti-administration invitees. He seemed flabbergasted by his unexpected opportunity to wreak a bit of needless havoc in the already tense nation's capital. "I think it tells you a lot about White House intelligence, doesn't it?" Mr. Hamill told The Washington Times. "How they got me is beyond me." Capitalizing on this good fortune, Mr. Hamill, a self-styled Zen Buddhist, quickly e-mailed a few hundred of his closest radical poet friends, soliciting anti-war-verse stink bombs to shower on Mrs. Bush and her husband's administration. These and other "poems" - hastily scribbled, unrevised, anti-U.S. free-verse screeds clearly cobbled together in 10 minutes or less from a knapsack full of Marxist cliches - are popping up on the Internet. You might wonder what all this has to do with honoring Whitman, Dickinson and Hughes. Mr. Hamill and his cadre don't care. "It's impossible for poetry not to be political," Poet Li-Young Lee breezily told the St. Petersburg Times. "The way I understand poetry, all poems are anti-war poems." Like the Iliad and the Aeneid, no doubt. Todd Swift, editor of an instant electronic book titled "100 Poets Against the War," chimed in, telling the Sydney (Australia) Morning Herald, "The idea that you could have a nonpolitical event celebrating the work of Walt Whitman ... is absurd." Crusty Beat relic Lawrence Ferlinghetti helpfully informed Reuters News Agency that inviting poets to the White House was naive. "The poet by definition ... has to be an enemy of the state," he said, " ... and one of its primary activities, which is war." This would have been news to Rudyard Kipling. Current U.S. poet laureate Billy Collins, who gets $35,000 a year from American taxpayers, told Associated Press, "If political protest is urgent, I don't think it needs to wait for an appropriate scene and setting and should be as disruptive as it wants to be." Copper Canyon poet W.S. Merwin thundered on the Web, "To arrange a war in order to be re-elected outdoes even the means employed in the last presidential election. Mr. Bush and his plans are a greater danger to the United States than Saddam Hussein." Where was Mr. Merwin when a politically hobbled Bill Clinton ordered a cruise missile attack onto a Sudanese aspirin factory a few years back? Buttressing the intellectual credentials of these artists, whose expertise in international politics rivals that of Sean Penn and Shakespeare scholar Barbra Streisand, is the moral authority of New Jersey's taxpayer-salaried poet laureate, Amiri Baraka, aka LeRoi Jones, who declared, "The main task right now is stopping the war." Mr. Baraka, of course, will be eagerly awaiting his Nobel Prize nomination for his 2002 poem accusing the Israelis of knowing in advance about the September 11 attacks. And poets wonder why they have become marginal figures in this country? As is so often the case during Republican administrations, these voices of American letters fully expected a banner newsday as they staged their little fit of pique in the White House. The Bushies, however, "postponed" the event (likely forever), thus denying them their hoped-for forum. That didn't stop the poets from claiming victory. "We closed the Bush poetry symposium on Whitman by 'politicizing literature,'" Mr. Hamill was quick to boast. Doesn't Mr. Hamill know that literature was already politicized - by definition? Doesn't anybody care what old Lawrence Ferlinghetti thinks anymore? With its invitation list to the Whitman symposium, the Bush administration confirmed Irving Kristol's diagnosis, as if it needed confirmation, of the Republican Party as the "stupid party." By mid week however, with its fiscal 2004 budget presentation, it showed that maybe it's at least the "teachable party." Its budget proposal included significant new support for improving the average American's generally poor knowledge of this country's history, traditions and culture. To accomplish this, the administration proposed $25 million for a National Endowment for the Humanities initiative called We the People. "The president is concerned about our ... historical amnesia," according to NEH Chairman Bruce Cole. "Unlike a monarchy, a democracy is not self-sustaining, and the history and values have to be passed on from generation to generation. When that is not happening, there is a crisis." Those involved with the NEH initiative are fully aware of what they are up against. Since the 1960s, America's schools have been hobbled increasingly by an academic and teaching culture that has substituted indoctrination in class struggle for a real education in American history, literature, and civics. The resulting intellectual vacuum has made it all too easy for shallow frauds such as Poets Against the War to mount devastatingly effective street theater without apparent challenge. It is past time to turn the tide, and the new NEH initiative is a good start. It is strange how these heroic radicals of the 1960s have morphed into 21st-century fascists bent on repressing the free speech of others. This recent ambush is just the latest act in a long-running drama that has intimidated most writers, particularly those in academia, into siding with the left lest they be denied tenure-track professorships and those all-important book contracts. Explaining to The Washington Times that the White House vetters who allowed his name to slip through should have been aware of his reputation as a radical, Mr. Hamill predicted, "Somebody's going to get fired over this." For once, we can agree. Those trusted by Mrs. Bush to put together an intellectually serious symposium should tender their resignations immediately. They had ample opportunity to go over their proposed guest list carefully. But apparently a naive "big tent" mentality got the better of them, and instead of getting serious commentary on three poets at the center of the American canon, they got a bunch of slogans masquerading as poetry on the Internet - and came off looking like censorious literary commissars. Sorry: Pandering to the literary left in a pathetic bid to seem smart is no way for the Bush administration to shed the Republican party's label as the stupid party. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adead_poet at hotmail.com Thu Apr 10 01:15:42 2003 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 00:15:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: attacking dana gioia? has it been a month already? jason >From: "Bob Grumman" >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA >Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:03:47 -0400 > > I just read the whole article in the Washington Times. I won't blame >Gioia for it. Nice to see a nice mention of new-poetry's Paul Lake, but >other than that it was pretty stupid. I hope to comment on it in detail >because several things about what Gioia plans to have the NEA do disgust >me. > > --Bob G. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 10 06:00:35 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 06:00:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <20.ea0ddfd.2bc6211a@aol.com> Message-ID: <006b01c2ff48$09d0c400$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> I like Dana Gioia, but would have to see the rejected works and their replacements to make any kind of judgment on the art issue. Seems like we have one of four propositions: 1. He wants to replace abstract crap with representational art. 2. He wants to replace abstract crap with representational crap. 3. He wants to replace abstract art with representational crap. 4. He wants to replace abstract art with representational art. I sympathize entirely with #1, and have some sympathy with #4, because after all, you like what you like. With #2 or #3 we are in trouble. Janet I read him differently. I read him as saying he's replacing some abstract paintings because he doesn't know what they mean, which is rank philistinism. As for your propositions, #4 can't really be faulted except that it shows, as so much does, that he's a hundred years behind in his appreciation of superior art. #1 also shows his bias against newer art, and art that has no easy-to-grasp literal meaning--since he doesn't want to replace bad abstract art with good abstract art. #3 is the most probable, since while it is not unlikely that an NEA arts administrator would have bad art of some kinds of paintings in his office--agit-prop or conceptual ones, for instance--it's unlikely he'd have bad abstract paintings. That's because they can just about only be judged on their aesthetic merits. I don't think we're in any trouble, even with #2 and #3 since we've managed with close to no worthwhile arts help from the government for decades. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 10 06:06:59 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 06:06:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <1a5.121f7d5a.2bc629e7@cs.com> Message-ID: <008201c2ff48$ef142c00$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> Hal, take a couple of Advil and go to bed early. A casual remark like the one you posted (please note the name of the reporter) shouldn't be cause for leaping to the barricades. I know Dana's taste in art pretty well (as a matter of fact, I once gave him a copy of an abstract expressionist pen and ink, which he did not hide in the barn), and, like his taste in music (opera to jazz to hip-hop), his taste in art is pretty eclectic. I hope it's better than his Ashbery-to-Wilbur "eclecticism" in poetry. But you make a good point, Sam, which is that Gioia simply made an offhand remark about replacing two paintings he didn't like with two he did, and--knowing the reporter was a Philistine--made a point of making him feel good by revealing that the replacements would be more representational. And the reporter, a Philistine, wanted to make his hero look good to neo-conservatives, so made sure to quote the remark. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 10 06:12:58 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 06:12:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel References: Message-ID: <009d01c2ff49$c36b9ba0$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> Amusing nearprose--but is anyone seriously arguing she's "experimental?" --Bob G. > How about another Lynn Emanuel poem to chew on? > > The Past > > Where did she come from, that dig > in the ribs? Who is she to pretend > she's me and to take on that ditched-in, > hopeless tone? Who is this phony > yokel? This two-dollar bill, this > pig knuckle? Honey, I tell her, > my name is Lynn Collins Emanuel, > someone whose whole manner says > I'm over-educated but recovering, > I have been to Europe and I don't > even recall that stain in the road > that you refer to as Ely, Nevada; > oh please, I think, give me a break, > woman, I mean who would believe > this arms-akimbo-in-faded-calico > West Coast depiction of the West? > Get out of here with your fibs > and lesions, your deaf ear wired > to its hearing aid, your coughs > and wattles. I know stories about > Gertrude Stein in her silk socks > drunk on Bordeaux in the garden. > What do I want to sit at your table for, > to be passed the faded confetti > of the succotash, the turkey > trussed like a hostage? Listen, > I am money in the bank, swank, > with it, well informed, full > of a Semitic glamour, doleful, > sleek and dark, shit, honey, > how did you get by the bouncer, > editor-within-me, Mr. Right? > And why am I now, like a new tenant, > moving into the little varicosity > on your left calf, the nylons knotted > just above the knee and, further, > into the hands that held that soft > gray lump of rag and washed, > and washed again the greasy > Formica of the dinner table? > How did I get to be at the head > of a long line of unlucky > women with their propensity > for poverty, influenza, > weak chests, and bad judgment, > how did their troubles get to be mine? > And no, I don't know who > could be in that hand-dug grave > at the Rosebud Cemetery, the little > dusty picket fence of teeth smiling up > from that too-shallow niche is > not mine. I don't know who > she is. I've never seen her. > I was in Paris at the time. > > --Lynn Emanuel. *The Dig*. U Illinois, 1992. > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 10 06:20:32 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 06:20:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia at the NEA References: Message-ID: <00b001c2ff4a$d1f74060$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> > Here's the sentence that stopped me in the Gioia piece by Ponick: > > "As a poet, Mr. Gioia eventually became a leader in the expansive/new > formalist poetry movement, which supports a return to poetic traditions > including, but not limited to, poetry in meter and rhyme, as well as verse > whose subject matter involves real-world experiences rather than the > narcissistic concerns of the poet." Yeah. that "narcissistic" was idiotic--since narcissistic concerns are real-world, too, and--more of course--because reduces the range of poetry to a ridiculously inaccurate and small either/or. > I don't think the pugilistic approach evinced here does Gioia any good, but > I'm not inclined to hold him responsible for the flourishes of his > interviewer. Gioia's seldom so simplistic in his summations, thank > goodness. Even I would admit that. Because, as I said once before and got Marcus going, for one thing, he's a politician. > Interesting dichotomy there, in any event: on the one hand, "real-world > experiences" (as opposed to otherworldly ones? Are we supposed to think of > Dante here? Milton? Coleridge?). I thought language poetry, mostly, interest in language being to Philistines not real-world. But his disgust with narcissism, ironically, suggests he's thinking of the same kind of me-poetry that prevails in the Iowa school that the language poets have been inveighing against for so long. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 10 06:23:42 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 06:23:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <20030410040508.454A54CAD@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <00b801c2ff4b$4367c760$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob G., > > The context, when referencing a work of art, whether representational, or not, is usually thought of as "the content." Bob C.: I meant the semantic context of what Gioia said, as my further clarification, I hope, showed. >Do all I'd change "all" to "enough of"--since perfectly unity will probably be a bore. >of the elements of art come together with the principles of art in a unified manner to form a pleasing composition? Works of art that stand the test of time are usually not easily understood at first meeting. > > Painting the Muse > > Layered > abstractions, > forms of luminosity, > once camouflaged, > now appear as courtesans > construing hints of royalty > in merging pigments, blue and green, > through invisible glazes, the Muse is seen. > Agreed. Nice poem. --Bob G. From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Thu Apr 10 08:14:02 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:14:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel In-Reply-To: <009d01c2ff49$c36b9ba0$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> References: <009d01c2ff49$c36b9ba0$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <1049976842.3e95600a9e191@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Bob, no, I think I started that confusion by noting that she had in the early 90s been at least somewhat interested in LangPo - as evidenced by her talk on such at Frost Festival of Poetry. But The Dig is really a post-Plath confessionalism if we wanna categorize. Still, I stand by one of my original thoughts on this thread - that she's a fairly lively and engaging writer who would benefit hugely from a careful reading of, say, Hejinian's MY LIFE or Carla Harryman's amazing MEMORY PLAY. -m. Quoting Bob Grumman : > Amusing nearprose--but is anyone seriously arguing she's "experimental?" > > --Bob G. > > > > > How about another Lynn Emanuel poem to chew on? > > > > The Past > > > > Where did she come from, that dig > > in the ribs? Who is she to pretend > > she's me and to take on that ditched-in, > > hopeless tone? Who is this phony > > yokel? This two-dollar bill, this > > pig knuckle? Honey, I tell her, > > my name is Lynn Collins Emanuel, > > someone whose whole manner says > > I'm over-educated but recovering, > > I have been to Europe and I don't > > even recall that stain in the road > > that you refer to as Ely, Nevada; > > oh please, I think, give me a break, > > woman, I mean who would believe > > this arms-akimbo-in-faded-calico > > West Coast depiction of the West? > > Get out of here with your fibs > > and lesions, your deaf ear wired > > to its hearing aid, your coughs > > and wattles. I know stories about > > Gertrude Stein in her silk socks > > drunk on Bordeaux in the garden. > > What do I want to sit at your table for, > > to be passed the faded confetti > > of the succotash, the turkey > > trussed like a hostage? Listen, > > I am money in the bank, swank, > > with it, well informed, full > > of a Semitic glamour, doleful, > > sleek and dark, shit, honey, > > how did you get by the bouncer, > > editor-within-me, Mr. Right? > > And why am I now, like a new tenant, > > moving into the little varicosity > > on your left calf, the nylons knotted > > just above the knee and, further, > > into the hands that held that soft > > gray lump of rag and washed, > > and washed again the greasy > > Formica of the dinner table? > > How did I get to be at the head > > of a long line of unlucky > > women with their propensity > > for poverty, influenza, > > weak chests, and bad judgment, > > how did their troubles get to be mine? > > And no, I don't know who > > could be in that hand-dug grave > > at the Rosebud Cemetery, the little > > dusty picket fence of teeth smiling up > > from that too-shallow niche is > > not mine. I don't know who > > she is. I've never seen her. > > I was in Paris at the time. > > > > --Lynn Emanuel. *The Dig*. U Illinois, 1992. > > > > > > ==================================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > ==================================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Faustina1 at aol.com Thu Apr 10 08:23:45 2003 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:23:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Dana Gioia at Texas A&M Message-ID: <137.1ddb2359.2bc6bc51@aol.com> I was greatly impressed by Dana Gioia when he visited here years ago, and I am neither a formalist nor a conservative. We have never had a visiting poet who spent so much time visiting with students--the reception lasted half the night, and people still talk about it. Moreover, at the reception and in individual chats with students he was proselytizing for poetry, not for any particular sort of poetry and not for any particular poets. His reading had a strong performance element, included works from other poets, and if I remember correctly was done entirely without any text. His reading was received better than that of Kathy Acker, who had come the previous week, and who also read well--and I mention this because my students were more likely to want to write like Acker than like Gioia, but he seemed more interested in them. Gioia's own poetry delights me, especially the more personal poems, and I think that he's a persuasive force for the encouragement of poetry reading and writing, dialogue and debate. He even made me read Longfellow again (even though I ended up turning away from L. with the same moue he prompted in college). Janet McCann (Another vocal poet against the war--who gets newspapers shoved under her nose all the time with "See this? See this?") -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellogg at duke.edu Thu Apr 10 08:38:36 2003 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:38:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <50.1af71b4b.2bc64e02@cs.com> References: <50.1af71b4b.2bc64e02@cs.com> Message-ID: <1028949.1049963916@user-152-16-68-20.adsl.duke.edu> Sam, No, no paper I know does this. But it wouldn't be a bad idea. I find it interesting that while financial conflicts of interest have been critiqued lately in the practice of business journalism, nobody cares about identifying _literary_ conflicts of interest. But doing so might help stop the endless circle jerks represented not only by Ponick's article but by (for example) Fred Chappell's glowing reviews of his friends and fellow LSU-press authors in the Raleigh News & Observer. We all have our favorite examples of such shameless boosterism. David --On Thursday, April 10, 2003 12:33 AM -0400 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/9/2003 10:34:43 PM Central Standard Time, > kellogg at duke.edu writes: > > > I find it sadly unsurprising that the Washington Times does not identify > the author of the article, T.L. Ponick, as a Gioian fellow-traveller and > editor of a middling New Formie rag (Edge City Review -- is that still > around? The title is the best thing about it). > > David > > > > David, I don't think it's the usual custom to adorn newspaper by-lines > with the kinds of tags you recommend. Does the Durham Herald-Sun do > this? Might be a good idea, come to think of it. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Apr 10 08:45:05 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 05:45:05 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring issue of The Salt River Review Message-ID: <3E956751.5400852A@earthlink.net> The Spring issue of The Salt River Review is now online. Poetry by Pamela Alexander, Kelly Birinyi, Ruben Dario - trans. by Greg Simon & Steven White, Helen Frost, Cynthia Hogue, John Morgan, Thu Nguyen, & Danny Rosen. Fiction byShannon Adler, Natalija Grgorinic & Ognjen Radjen, Prasenjit Maiti & Sakae Manning. Literary Non-fiction by Keith Geekie Review of John Haines' _For the Century?s End: Poems 1990-1999_ by Helen Frost http://www.poetserv.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Thu Apr 10 08:41:20 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:41:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Book!: Michael Magee's MS In-Reply-To: <1049912901.3e9466455fcc5@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <000d01c2fd2d$d604f540$a564f4d1@computer> <1049912901.3e9466455fcc5@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <1049978480.3e95667027b3a@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Hi all, Some of you may have noticed Matt Hart's review of my new book _MS_ in the recent Poetry Project Newsletter. A couple of people have asked me where they can purchase it. It will be available very soon on amazon.com, barnesandnoble.com and order-able through your local bookstore. The details are: Michael Magee, MS (Spuyten Duyvil, 2003), 90 pp., ISBN 1-881471-20-9. In the meantime, if you're peeing your pants in anticipation and want to order a copy now, you can order it directly from National Book Network at 1-800-462-6420 I've copied below the kind comments which appear on the back cover, from some poets I greatly admire. Here's hoping you buy the book and enjoy it! A more formal announcement will come from Spuyten Duyvil once the book's widely available. -m. *************************** Stuttering turns into syncopation in this edgily engaging collocation of accents, attitudes, occasions. The poems in MS are provocative, certainly without idealization, the dollars-and-cents context of our grainy American dream. Mike Magee's detailed optical-ocular orbiting effects ?? "other-wise / waning or adroitly loitering" ?? make reading this collection a constant surprise. ??Susan Howe Does the poet diagnose a medical condition or continue a feminist tradition? Is it a motor ship or a manuscript? A degree of science or a software appliance? Recklessly eyeballing Mike Magee's "grainy American dream," my optic nerves jangle to the tune of jump-cut language, slurred and blurred words flashed on the screen of memory with a quick trigger finger on the universal remote. Magee's MS interrupts our programming with his alternative vision. ??Harryette Mullen The discursively promiscuous clauses of these poems?cut generously with a slide-wit on the national symbols blared, dice up much of the lingering prosaic transparency of American Poetry (Inc.). Here?s no monologic gnosis gnashing of "repressed subject" possibilities, while at the same time no fashionable duncing of the socially determinative either. This rhetor?s got the apps (and multiplexed ?mouth?) to get you to the next level?Your Turn. --Rodrigo Toscano Michael Magee's MS is new music...a carnivalesque palimpsest of vision and ventriloquy, supple rhythm informed by Hiphop era ironies and an erudite grasp of postmodern poetics. This marvelous Century 21 ethnic American remix of personal history and society's mystery is both demanding and delightful. You need this book! Mr. Magee creates poems that tickle the ear and open a new window in the mind's eye. Read aloud. Think fast. ??Lorenzo Thomas From kellogg at duke.edu Thu Apr 10 08:44:31 2003 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:44:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <1d0.6fdab93.2bc64ba2@cs.com> References: <1d0.6fdab93.2bc64ba2@cs.com> Message-ID: <1383422.1049964271@user-152-16-68-20.adsl.duke.edu> Hey Sam, could you summarize? I have read some of Feirstein's work but don't have access to the current Edge City. Let me note that my earlier point was not against Gioia, whose poetry is not to my taste but whose prose I think has done some serious good in the world. --On Thursday, April 10, 2003 12:22 AM -0400 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/9/2003 10:56:46 PM Central Standard Time, > grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > And on the other hand, "the narcissistic concerns of the poet." At least > that's easy to interpret: must mean poems by poets such as Sappho, > Dickinson, Herrick, Wordsworth, Yeats, Larkin--always whining about their > personal problems, you know? Bunch of self-obsessed cry-babies. . . . > > > As I said to D. Kellogg, please try to read F. Feirstein's screed in the > current ECR. I wish I could post it, but I don't think it's available > online. From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Apr 10 08:55:27 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:55:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem In-Reply-To: <1028949.1049963916@user-152-16-68-20.adsl.duke.edu> References: <50.1af71b4b.2bc64e02@cs.com> Message-ID: <3E95317F.19520.4EC2E4@localhost> A little boy goes to his father and asks, "What is politics?" Dad says, "Well, Son, let me try to explain it this way. I'm the breadwinner of the family, so let's call me Capitalism. Your Mom, she's the administrator of the money, so we'll call her the Government. We're here to take care of your needs, so we'll call you the People. The nanny -- we'll consider her the Working Class; and your baby brother, we'll call him the Future. Now, think about that, and see if that makes sense." So the little boy goes off to bed thinking about what Dad has said. Later that night, he hears his baby brother crying, and gets up to check on him. The baby's diaper is a large stinking mess, so. the little boy goes to his parents room and finds his mother sound asleep. Not wanting to wake her, he goes to the nanny's room. Finding the door locked, he peeks in the keyhole and sees his father and the nanny having sex. He gives up and goes back to bed. The next morning, the little boy says to his father, "Dad, I think I understand the concept of politics now." The father says, "Good, Son, tell me in your own words what you think politics is all about". The little boy replies, "While Capitalism is screwing the Working Class, the Government is sound asleep, the People are being ignored and the Future is in deep shit". Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Apr 10 08:46:49 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:46:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <1a5.121f7d5a.2bc629e7@cs.com> Message-ID: You tryin' ta kill me, Sam? The Advil label sez geezers my age oughtn't take more than one every twelve hours. Hal "Thinking is natural only when there is nothing else to do" --Miroslav Holub Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard Hal, take a couple of Advil and go to bed early. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bardo at optonline.net Thu Apr 10 09:07:51 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:07:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem References: <50.1af71b4b.2bc64e02@cs.com> <3E95317F.19520.4EC2E4@localhost> Message-ID: <001101c2ff62$31ab8f40$6d94c044@MULDER> Out of the mouths of babes . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 8:55 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem > A little boy goes to his father and asks, > "What is politics?" > > Dad says, "Well, Son, > let me try to explain it this way. > I'm the breadwinner of the family, so let's call me Capitalism. > > Your Mom, she's the administrator of the money, > so we'll call her the Government. > > We're here to take care of your needs, so > we'll call you the People. > > The nanny -- we'll consider her the Working Class; > and your baby brother, we'll call him the Future. > > Now, think about that, and see if that makes sense." > > So the little boy goes off to bed > thinking about what Dad has said. > > Later that night, he hears his baby brother crying, > and gets up to check on him. > The baby's diaper is a large stinking mess, so. > the little boy goes to his parents room > and finds his mother sound asleep. > Not wanting to wake her, > he goes to the nanny's room. > Finding the door locked, > he peeks in the keyhole > and sees his father and the nanny > having sex. > > He gives up and goes back to bed. > > The next morning, the little boy says to his father, > "Dad, I think I understand the concept of politics now." > > The father says, "Good, Son, > tell me in your own words > what you think politics is all about". > > The little boy replies, > "While Capitalism is screwing the Working Class, > the Government is sound asleep, > the People are being ignored > and the Future is in deep shit". > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Thu Apr 10 09:50:32 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:50:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems By Others: Zukofsky sonnet In-Reply-To: <3E95317F.19520.4EC2E4@localhost> References: <50.1af71b4b.2bc64e02@cs.com> <3E95317F.19520.4EC2E4@localhost> Message-ID: <1049982632.3e9576a8ca799@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> This is the sonnet which opens section 7 of Zukofsky's _A_. -m. Horses: who will do it? out of manes? Words Will do it, out of manes, out of airs, but They have no manes, so there are no airs, birds Of words, from me to them no singing gut. For they have no eyes, for their legs are wood, For their stomachs are logs with print on them; Blood red, red lamps hang from necks or where could Be necks, two legs stand A, four together M. "Street Closed" Is what print says on their stomachs; That cuts out everybody but the diggers; You're cut out, and she's cut out, and the jiggers Are cut out. No! we can't have such nor bucks As won't, tho they're not here, pass thru a hoop Strayed on a manhole -- me? Am on a stoop. From bardo at optonline.net Thu Apr 10 09:50:36 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:50:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: Message-ID: <007801c2ff68$2a850ec0$6d94c044@MULDER> And Turner complains about the quality of work on Poets Against the War? Whew. He complains about the quality of the work on that site: "These and other "poems" - hastily scribbled, unrevised, anti-U.S. free-verse screeds clearly cobbled together in 10 minutes or less from a knapsack full of Marxist cliches - are popping up on the Internet." How long (as if THAT matters!), one wonders, did it take Mr. Turner to compose his utterly artless (for a "new formalist") "screed" against those who oppose the "life-destroying" actions of the Bush administration? In his "snafu" article, Turner says: "It is strange how these heroic radicals of the 1960s have morphed into 21st-century fascists bent on repressing the free speech of others." WHO repressed the free speech of others? WHO cancelled the event at the White House? (Did the White House invite Mr. Turner to the event?) Thanks for the Washington Post article you posted earlier on Dana Gioia, by the way. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 1:05 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA When Turner says that "Art must be life-serving rather than life-destroying," I wonder how he feels about Poets Against the War, for example--as opposed to the sorry pack of Poets For the War. I don't doubt that many good things may eventually come from NewKlassical (but why the K?), but its Manifesto seems like an attempt to hide a political agenda in platitudes. Ponick's characterization of Poets Against the War as "political antics" at least has the value of an up-front put-down, however undeserved--especially in the context of the "life-serving rather than life-destroying" rhetoric from Mr. Turner. Dan ++++++++++++++++ I think that the poem and article below (both of which were earlier posted on this list as links; I publicly responded on the list to the article and privately to Mr. Ponick as well, saying that his rhetorical strategies rivalled those of the late Roy Cohn) should tell us where Mr. Ponick and Prof. Turner are coming from. I don't think I need to further defend Dana Gioia, but I will point out that the new head of the NEA could not well refuse to see a reporter (Mr. Ponick is a regular contributor to the WT) from one of his two hometown newspapers, and that it was Mr. Ponick who requested the quote from Prof. Turner, not Mr. Gioia. A much better article was the one from the Post, the link to which I posted earlier. Reply to the Five Thousand (The organizers of Poets Against the War now claim the signatures of five thousand poets) by Frederick Turner Never till now was I shamed by the name of poet. What could it it even mean, if five thousand "poets" Sign the same misspelled and malicious manifesto? Is not a poet a truth-teller, a seer of inner visions? Why do they make this smell, like the back seat of a taxi? How can they slander the honest officers of the State? What is this rage, this stink of outraged vanity, This resentment that finds at last its lusted-for target, This thick warm glow of the narcissist's solidarity? Why do they always adore the strongman with the mustache (The strongman who takes great care of his personal hygiene And always leaves behind him a sweetness at meetings)? Why do they gnaw and slaver at the hand that feeds them? Why do they hate so this dear dear America That ploddingly over the decades hauls the world into decency? Were they not given at poetry readings all that they wanted-- The jus primae noctis with the prettiest budding poet, The right to be rude to the quivering faculty host, The right to get drunk and spew all over the carpet, The great claim to stand in the footsteps of giants? What is this unslaked vanity, this desire to roll over And over in the stink of of each other's selfrighteousness? What can the young men and women who guard them from harm --Who seek to destroy the poisons designed to kill poets-- What can they think when their danger and grief and devotion And loneliness, losses and pains are counted a crime? And what can I call myself now that "poet" is murdered, That the word cannot mean any more the inner glow Of the vision, the inner voice of the truth that commands me? Who can my friends be, where are my fellow-eccentrics, When all that's called "poet" is just a chewing and chewing On the same miserable piece of cheap cardboard? Where can I go, but with the soldiers to battle, To place my spirit in the bright eye of the bomb, To feel with my wounded belly the pain of the wounded, To stand near my son so my soul will deflect the bullet, To find words for the ancient cities of Uruk Who grope half-blinded into the light of freedom? And so perhaps I must give up the name of poet And leave it to those who have wiped themselves with its paper, And find some name to call myself, now I'm reborn At fifty-nine, having lost the word for my life, Or go nameless at last, where I may serve my people, A spirit who still says Yes to America, Yes To the world of free citizens, Yes to courage, Yes to the hope of a world that is rich and growing, Yes to the fresh wind that blows in the dark of the dawn. The Washington Times No rhyme or reason in poetry snafu February 8, 2003 Section: ARTS Page: D02 T.R. Ponick, THE WASHINGTON TIMES Almost lost in the past week's coverage of the Space Shuttle Columbia's fiery final voyage was a nasty little reminder that America's culture wars are alive and well. The staff of first lady Laura Bush was forced to cancel a Feb. 12 symposium meant to celebrate the poetry of Walt Whitman, Emily Dickinson and Langston Hughes. Advisers foolishly had invited known agitators from the hate-America left to attend this event, and the White House has paid the price in a frenzy of negative publicity. Former U.S. poet laureate Rita Dove released a statement huffing, "The abrupt cancellation of the symposium ... confirms my suspicion that the Bush administration is not interested in poetry when it refuses to remain in the ivory tower, and that this White House does not wish to open its doors to an 'American Voice' that does not echo the administration's misguided policies." American or not, Miss Dove's voice certainly is disingenuous. Poet and editor Sam Hamill, head of tiny Copper Canyon Press and a committed socialist who ran for public office in California under that banner as an anti-war candidate in 1968, was one of several anti-administration invitees. He seemed flabbergasted by his unexpected opportunity to wreak a bit of needless havoc in the already tense nation's capital. "I think it tells you a lot about White House intelligence, doesn't it?" Mr. Hamill told The Washington Times. "How they got me is beyond me." Capitalizing on this good fortune, Mr. Hamill, a self-styled Zen Buddhist, quickly e-mailed a few hundred of his closest radical poet friends, soliciting anti-war-verse stink bombs to shower on Mrs. Bush and her husband's administration. These and other "poems" - hastily scribbled, unrevised, anti-U.S. free-verse screeds clearly cobbled together in 10 minutes or less from a knapsack full of Marxist cliches - are popping up on the Internet. You might wonder what all this has to do with honoring Whitman, Dickinson and Hughes. Mr. Hamill and his cadre don't care. "It's impossible for poetry not to be political," Poet Li-Young Lee breezily told the St. Petersburg Times. "The way I understand poetry, all poems are anti-war poems." Like the Iliad and the Aeneid, no doubt. Todd Swift, editor of an instant electronic book titled "100 Poets Against the War," chimed in, telling the Sydney (Australia) Morning Herald, "The idea that you could have a nonpolitical event celebrating the work of Walt Whitman ... is absurd." Crusty Beat relic Lawrence Ferlinghetti helpfully informed Reuters News Agency that inviting poets to the White House was naive. "The poet by definition ... has to be an enemy of the state," he said, " ... and one of its primary activities, which is war." This would have been news to Rudyard Kipling. Current U.S. poet laureate Billy Collins, who gets $35,000 a year from American taxpayers, told Associated Press, "If political protest is urgent, I don't think it needs to wait for an appropriate scene and setting and should be as disruptive as it wants to be." Copper Canyon poet W.S. Merwin thundered on the Web, "To arrange a war in order to be re-elected outdoes even the means employed in the last presidential election. Mr. Bush and his plans are a greater danger to the United States than Saddam Hussein." Where was Mr. Merwin when a politically hobbled Bill Clinton ordered a cruise missile attack onto a Sudanese aspirin factory a few years back? Buttressing the intellectual credentials of these artists, whose expertise in international politics rivals that of Sean Penn and Shakespeare scholar Barbra Streisand, is the moral authority of New Jersey's taxpayer-salaried poet laureate, Amiri Baraka, aka LeRoi Jones, who declared, "The main task right now is stopping the war." Mr. Baraka, of course, will be eagerly awaiting his Nobel Prize nomination for his 2002 poem accusing the Israelis of knowing in advance about the September 11 attacks. And poets wonder why they have become marginal figures in this country? As is so often the case during Republican administrations, these voices of American letters fully expected a banner newsday as they staged their little fit of pique in the White House. The Bushies, however, "postponed" the event (likely forever), thus denying them their hoped-for forum. That didn't stop the poets from claiming victory. "We closed the Bush poetry symposium on Whitman by 'politicizing literature,'" Mr. Hamill was quick to boast. Doesn't Mr. Hamill know that literature was already politicized - by definition? Doesn't anybody care what old Lawrence Ferlinghetti thinks anymore? With its invitation list to the Whitman symposium, the Bush administration confirmed Irving Kristol's diagnosis, as if it needed confirmation, of the Republican Party as the "stupid party." By mid week however, with its fiscal 2004 budget presentation, it showed that maybe it's at least the "teachable party." Its budget proposal included significant new support for improving the average American's generally poor knowledge of this country's history, traditions and culture. To accomplish this, the administration proposed $25 million for a National Endowment for the Humanities initiative called We the People. "The president is concerned about our ... historical amnesia," according to NEH Chairman Bruce Cole. "Unlike a monarchy, a democracy is not self-sustaining, and the history and values have to be passed on from generation to generation. When that is not happening, there is a crisis." Those involved with the NEH initiative are fully aware of what they are up against. Since the 1960s, America's schools have been hobbled increasingly by an academic and teaching culture that has substituted indoctrination in class struggle for a real education in American history, literature, and civics. The resulting intellectual vacuum has made it all too easy for shallow frauds such as Poets Against the War to mount devastatingly effective street theater without apparent challenge. It is past time to turn the tide, and the new NEH initiative is a good start. It is strange how these heroic radicals of the 1960s have morphed into 21st-century fascists bent on repressing the free speech of others. This recent ambush is just the latest act in a long-running drama that has intimidated most writers, particularly those in academia, into siding with the left lest they be denied tenure-track professorships and those all-important book contracts. Explaining to The Washington Times that the White House vetters who allowed his name to slip through should have been aware of his reputation as a radical, Mr. Hamill predicted, "Somebody's going to get fired over this." For once, we can agree. Those trusted by Mrs. Bush to put together an intellectually serious symposium should tender their resignations immediately. They had ample opportunity to go over their proposed guest list carefully. But apparently a naive "big tent" mentality got the better of them, and instead of getting serious commentary on three poets at the center of the American canon, they got a bunch of slogans masquerading as poetry on the Internet - and came off looking like censorious literary commissars. Sorry: Pandering to the literary left in a pathetic bid to seem smart is no way for the Bush administration to shed the Republican party's label as the stupid party. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Apr 10 10:17:38 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:17:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN In-Reply-To: <3E93F3A7.16445.4665A9@localhost> References: <007e01c2fdda$b7e43780$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <3E9544C2.27517.9A0574@localhost> I see our Military Viceroy and Campaign Contributing Defense Contractor Lt. Gen. Jay Garner is intending to appoint as his economic advisor Ahmad Chalabi a man convicted of over 30 counts of bank fraud in Jordan. We have new economic partners, criminal ones, with connections. Chalabi is not just a prospective Minister of Finance, he is also head of the US-created Iraqi National Congress. The war might be over, but the profiteering by the Bush League is just begining. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 10:46:42 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:46:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <19e.12eea0d5.2bc6ddd2@cs.com> In a message dated 4/10/2003 5:11:38 AM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > >> Hal, take a couple of Advil and go to bed early. A casual remark like >> the one you posted (please note the name of the reporter) shouldn't be >> cause for leaping to the barricades. I know Dana's taste in art pretty >> well (as a matter of fact, I once gave him a copy of an abstract >> expressionist pen and ink, which he did not hide in the barn), and, like >> his taste in music (opera to jazz to hip-hop), his taste in art is pretty >> eclectic. >> >> I hope it's better than his Ashbery-to-Wilbur "eclecticism" in poetry. >> But you make a good point, Sam, which is that Gioia simply made an offhand >> remark about replacing two paintings he didn't like with two he did, >> and--knowing the reporter was a Philistine--made a point of making him >> feel good by revealing that the replacements would be more >> representational. And the reporter, a Philistine, wanted to make his hero >> look good to neo-conservatives, so made sure to quote the remark. >> >> --Bob G. >> > This strikes me as a fairly accurate take on the matter. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 10:50:21 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:50:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: In a message dated 4/10/2003 7:43:19 AM Central Standard Time, kellogg at duke.edu writes: > But doing so might help stop > the endless circle jerks represented not only by Ponick's article but by > (for example) Fred Chappell's glowing reviews of his friends and fellow > LSU-press authors in the Raleigh News &Observer. We all have our favorite > examples of such shameless boosterism. > Shoot, he even favorably reviewed Gioia and me in the same article. Hang him, I say! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 10:52:09 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:52:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <14d.1df6d4f2.2bc6df19@cs.com> In a message dated 4/10/2003 7:45:07 AM Central Standard Time, kellogg at duke.edu writes: > > Hey Sam, could you summarize? I have read some of Feirstein's work but > don't have access to the current Edge City. > It is a bizarre, self-serving account of how he founded "expansive poetry" that ends with a vicious attack on D.G. It'll probably be online when the next issue appears. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 10:53:23 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:53:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <1ed.656fe2c.2bc6df63@cs.com> In a message dated 4/10/2003 7:51:06 AM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > You tryin' ta kill me, Sam? The Advil label sez geezers > my age oughtn't take more than one every twelve hours. > > Hal "Thinking is natural only when > there is nothing else to do" > --Miroslav Holub > Halvard Johnson > > > My nurse practitioner says three is the usual therapeutic dosage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 10:55:44 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:55:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <18.2ef26b75.2bc6dff0@cs.com> In a message dated 4/10/2003 8:53:48 AM Central Standard Time, bardo at optonline.net writes: > > And Turner complains about the quality of work on Poets Against the War? > Whew. He complains about the quality of the work on that site: "These and > other "poems" - hastily scribbled, unrevised, anti-U.S. free-verse screeds > clearly cobbled together in 10 minutes or less from a knapsack full of > Marxist cliches - are popping up on the Internet." How long (as if THAT > matters!), one wonders, did it take Mr. Turner to compose his utterly > artless (for a "new formalist") "screed" against those who oppose the > "life-destroying" actions of the Bush administration? > > In his "snafu" article, Turner says: "It is strange how these heroic > radicals of the 1960s have morphed into 21st-century fascists bent on > repressing the free speech of others." WHO repressed the free speech of > others? WHO cancelled the event at the White House? (Did the White House > invite Mr. Turner to the event?) > > Thanks for the Washington Post article you posted earlier on Dana Gioia, > by the way. > The "snafu" article was by T. L. Ponick, not Frederick Turner. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bardo at optonline.net Thu Apr 10 11:06:32 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:06:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN References: <007e01c2fdda$b7e43780$6d94c044@MULDER> <3E9544C2.27517.9A0574@localhost> Message-ID: <010801c2ff72$c5d3ec70$6d94c044@MULDER> Reminds me of Hamid Karzai, former Unocal consultant, now satrap in Kabul. "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be far behind?" The "black oil" of The X-Files swirls in the pupils of the oligarchy as the Rock'em Saddam Robot morphs into a Weeble yet again. CNN just ran footage of an attempt to blast another statue of the Wacky Iraqi: the blast went off, but the statue remained. Spooky. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN > I see our Military Viceroy > and Campaign Contributing Defense Contractor > Lt. Gen. Jay Garner > is intending to appoint as his economic advisor > Ahmad Chalabi > a man convicted of over 30 counts > of bank fraud in Jordan. > > We have new economic partners, > criminal ones, > with connections. > > Chalabi is not just > a prospective Minister of Finance, > he is also head of the US-created Iraqi > National Congress. > > The war might be over, > but the profiteering by > the Bush League > is just begining. > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mandolin at mac.com Thu Apr 10 11:25:22 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:25:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems By Others: Zukofsky sonnet Message-ID: <7255976.1049988322437.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Well, it rhymes like a sonnet. That's about all. On Thursday, April 10, 2003, at 09:50AM, wrote: >This is the sonnet which opens section 7 of Zukofsky's _A_. -m. > >Horses: who will do it? out of manes? Words >Will do it, out of manes, out of airs, but >They have no manes, so there are no airs, birds >Of words, from me to them no singing gut. >For they have no eyes, for their legs are wood, >For their stomachs are logs with print on them; >Blood red, red lamps hang from necks or where could >Be necks, two legs stand A, four together M. >"Street Closed" Is what print says on their stomachs; >That cuts out everybody but the diggers; >You're cut out, and she's cut out, and the jiggers >Are cut out. No! we can't have such nor bucks > As won't, tho they're not here, pass thru a hoop > Strayed on a manhole -- me? Am on a stoop. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From mandolin at mac.com Thu Apr 10 11:37:06 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:37:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] US TROOPS OPEN FIRE ON WOMEN & CHILDREN Message-ID: <5216340.1049989026709.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Thursday, April 10, 2003, at 10:17AM, Marcus Bales wrote: >I see our Military Viceroy >and Campaign Contributing Defense Contractor >Lt. Gen. Jay Garner >is intending to appoint as his economic advisor >Ahmad Chalabi >a man convicted of over 30 counts >of bank fraud in Jordan. > >We have new economic partners, >criminal ones, >with connections. > >Chalabi is not just >a prospective Minister of Finance, >he is also head of the US-created Iraqi >National Congress. > >The war might be over, >but the profiteering by >the Bush League >is just begining. > > >Marcus Bales It doesn't look good, does it? There's a piece in Slate with more on Chalabi: http://slate.msn.com/id/2081360/ But another article (http://slate.msn.com/id/2081321/) suggests the Pentagon's infatuation with the INC is not shared at the CIA or at State, and suggests that "his star inside the administration might already be waning" with a link to this NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/08/international/worldspecial/08ASSE.html From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Apr 10 11:36:26 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:36:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <008a01c2fee4$3e141fa0$e375fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: Bob, I'm pretty sure Dana Gioia likes a lot of abstract art. In conversation he recently told me that he subscribed to ART NEWS as a young teenager. Paul Lake on 4/9/03 5:06 PM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: >> { Surely, it would depend on the context. If he thinks they SHOULD > "mean" the >> { way all his poetry, and poetry he likes (so far as I know) does, it > would be >> { one thing; if he realizes asking for conventional meaning from > abstract art >> { is silly, it would be another. >> > >> { --Bob G. >> >> I'm sure (well, not really sure) about what you think DG might think, > > Aw, shucks, Hal, I tried so hard to hide it! > >> Bob. I was just being hopeful is all. Chalk it up to that heady the-war >> -might-be-over-or-almost-over air in the air today. >> >> Hal > > Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Gioia actually likes abstract art--for > what I'd call the proper reasons. After all, it IS long-certified. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From bardo at optonline.net Thu Apr 10 11:47:52 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:47:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <18.2ef26b75.2bc6dff0@cs.com> Message-ID: <013601c2ff78$8c333600$6d94c044@MULDER> ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In a message dated 4/10/2003 8:53:48 AM Central Standard Time, bardo at optonline.net writes: And Turner complains about the quality of work on Poets Against the War? Whew. He complains about the quality of the work on that site: "These and other "poems" - hastily scribbled, unrevised, anti-U.S. free-verse screeds clearly cobbled together in 10 minutes or less from a knapsack full of Marxist cliches - are popping up on the Internet." How long (as if THAT matters!), one wonders, did it take Mr. Turner to compose his utterly artless (for a "new formalist") "screed" against those who oppose the "life-destroying" actions of the Bush administration? In his "snafu" article, Turner says: "It is strange how these heroic radicals of the 1960s have morphed into 21st-century fascists bent on repressing the free speech of others." WHO repressed the free speech of others? WHO cancelled the event at the White House? (Did the White House invite Mr. Turner to the event?) Thanks for the Washington Post article you posted earlier on Dana Gioia, by the way. The "snafu" article was by T. L. Ponick, not Frederick Turner. Right. Sorry! I guess I mistook the ventriloquist for the dummy. I'll bet, though, that Turner would agree wholeheartedly with Ponick's view. Thanks for the correction. Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 11:58:45 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:58:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <1dd.7353ab6.2bc6eeb5@cs.com> In a message dated 4/10/2003 10:49:36 AM Central Standard Time, bardo at optonline.net writes: > Right. Sorry! I guess I mistook the ventriloquist for the dummy. I'll bet, > though, that Turner would agree wholeheartedly with Ponick's view. > > No doubt. Whatsoever. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Thu Apr 10 12:17:51 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:17:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Book!: Michael Magee's MS Message-ID: <2252757.1049991471088.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Congratulations, Michael! When I ordered Henry Gould's Stubborn Grew directly from Spuyten Duyvil, they sent 3 additional books for free -- a generous promotional technique. On Thursday, April 10, 2003, at 08:41AM, wrote: >Hi all, > >Some of you may have noticed Matt Hart's review of my new book _MS_ in the >recent Poetry Project Newsletter. A couple of people have asked me where they >can purchase it. It will be available very soon on amazon.com, >barnesandnoble.com and order-able through your local bookstore. The details >are: > >Michael Magee, MS (Spuyten Duyvil, 2003), 90 pp., ISBN 1-881471-20-9. > >In the meantime, if you're peeing your pants in anticipation and want to order >a copy now, you can order it directly from National Book Network at > >1-800-462-6420 > >I've copied below the kind comments which appear on the back cover, from some >poets I greatly admire. Here's hoping you buy the book and enjoy it! A more >formal announcement will come from Spuyten Duyvil once the book's widely >available. -m. > >*************************** >Stuttering turns into syncopation in this edgily engaging collocation of >accents, attitudes, occasions. The poems in MS are provocative, certainly >without idealization, the dollars-and-cents context of our grainy American >dream. Mike Magee's detailed optical-ocular orbiting effects ?? "other-wise / >waning or adroitly loitering" ?? make reading this collection a constant >surprise. > >??Susan Howe > >Does the poet diagnose a medical condition or continue a feminist tradition? Is >it a motor ship or a manuscript? A degree of science or a software appliance? >Recklessly eyeballing Mike Magee's "grainy American dream," my optic nerves >jangle to the tune of jump-cut language, slurred and blurred words flashed on >the screen of memory with a quick trigger finger on the universal remote. >Magee's MS interrupts our programming with his alternative vision. > >??Harryette Mullen > >The discursively promiscuous clauses of these poems?cut generously with a >slide-wit on the national symbols blared, dice up much of the lingering prosaic >transparency of American Poetry (Inc.). Here?s no monologic gnosis gnashing of >"repressed subject" possibilities, while at the same time no fashionable >duncing of the socially determinative either. This rhetor?s got the apps (and >multiplexed ?mouth?) to get you to the next level?Your Turn. > >--Rodrigo Toscano > >Michael Magee's MS is new music...a carnivalesque palimpsest of vision and >ventriloquy, supple rhythm informed by Hiphop era ironies and an erudite grasp >of postmodern poetics. This marvelous Century 21 ethnic American remix of >personal history and society's mystery is both demanding and delightful. You >need this book! Mr. Magee creates poems that tickle the ear and open a new >window in the mind's eye. Read aloud. Think fast. > >??Lorenzo Thomas > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From chris at chrislott.org Thu Apr 10 12:33:37 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:33:37 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <20.ea0ddfd.2bc6211a@aol.com> <006b01c2ff48$09d0c400$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <011601c2ff7e$f3cf81a0$6601a8c0@TRS80> On Thursday, April 10, 2003 2:00 AM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > it shows, as so much does, that he's a hundred > years behind in his appreciation of superior art. Superior? Really? In general? All? Some? Time must equal progress? New must be better? There is nothing inherently superior about modern art, nor anything inherently superior about abstract art. It's a meaningless position, like maintaining that a poem which has been typed must be better than one that is hand printed. c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Thu Apr 10 12:34:45 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 08:34:45 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel References: <009d01c2ff49$c36b9ba0$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <011e01c2ff7f$1c7d5320$6601a8c0@TRS80> On Thursday, April 10, 2003 2:12 AM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > Amusing nearprose--but is anyone seriously arguing she's > "experimental?" Not that I know of, and thank God for that. I mean for the fact that she is not being experimental. I could care less of someone maintains that she is or not. c -- Chris Lott From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Apr 10 12:56:40 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:56:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <1ed.656fe2c.2bc6df63@cs.com> Message-ID: Hmm, y'oughta teach that nurse to read, Sam. And I quote: "Adults over age 65: Do not take more than 1 caplet every 12 hours, unless directed by a doctor." Now, I may not be an "adult" in the fullest sense of the word, but I am over 65. And your "nurse practioner" ain't a doctor. And neither, come to think on it, are you. Actually, I did take two yesterday in less than twelve hours in an attempt to alleviate some sinusy stuff going on. I did that *before* reading the label (I told you I wasn't adult in every respect)--but I took heart from the fact that the expiration date on the bottle passed nearly two years ago. Hal In a message dated 4/10/2003 7:51:06 AM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: You tryin' ta kill me, Sam? The Advil label sez geezers my age oughtn't take more than one every twelve hours. Hal "Thinking is natural only when there is nothing else to do" --Miroslav Holub Halvard Johnson My nurse practitioner says three is the usual therapeutic dosage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 13:18:09 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:18:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <9d.3767b55b.2bc70151@cs.com> In a message dated 4/10/2003 12:01:27 PM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > And I quote: "Adults over age 65: Do not take more than > 1 caplet every 12 hours, unless directed by a doctor." > I forgot you were a senior citizen, Hal. I am considerably younger, of course. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Apr 10 13:22:02 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:22:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <9d.3767b55b.2bc70151@cs.com> Message-ID: on 4/10/03 12:18 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/10/2003 12:01:27 PM Central Daylight Time, > halvard at earthlink.net writes: > And I quote: "Adults over age 65: Do not take more than > 1 caplet every 12 hours, unless directed by a doctor." > > I forgot you were a senior citizen, Hal. I am considerably younger, of > course. Hey, if either of you can READ the print on a bottle, you?re not that damned old. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Apr 10 13:33:20 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:33:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <9d.3767b55b.2bc70151@cs.com> Message-ID: Not to worry, Sam. That forgetfulness will both increase and come in handy as you grow older. Hal I forgot you were a senior citizen, Hal. I am considerably younger, of course. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Apr 10 14:22:13 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:22:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Irregular Verbs Used Against Iraqi Positions" Message-ID: Irregular Verbs Used Against Iraqi Positions Torrents of verbs flow into and out of Kuwait City, out of Doha in Qatar, out of the Pentagon, out of Whitehall. Regular air and ground verbs, such as target, bomb, destroy, fly over the arid stretches of Iraqi desert to find their marks in Basra, in Mosul, in Baghdad. The irregular verbs are shot through with patterns: blow-blew, throw-threw. Not that we'd expect any less from a laundry list of arbitrary items. However, the terrorizing, indiscriminate, experimental, and often long- lasting nature of these verbs make for horrible and illegal battle tactics, while not causing as many civilian casualties as do regular verbs, with or without their participles dangling or infinitives spit out there in broad desert daylight, for all to see, by rockets' loud blare, without night- vision goggles, even. [with a little help from texts by Simon Helweg-Larsen and Steven Pinker] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From daisyf1 at juno.com Thu Apr 10 15:34:26 2003 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:34:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1415 - 11 msgs Message-ID: <20030410.153428.-357471.2.daisyf1@juno.com> > "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be far behind?" Halliburton's already there: a subsidiary has the contract to clean up the oil fires. Daisy From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 10 15:53:25 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:53:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <20.ea0ddfd.2bc6211a@aol.com> <006b01c2ff48$09d0c400$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> <011601c2ff7e$f3cf81a0$6601a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <00c201c2ff9a$da8b3d80$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> > On Thursday, April 10, 2003 2:00 AM, Bob Grumman > spake thusly: > > > it shows, as so much does, that he's a hundred > > years behind in his appreciation of superior art. > > Superior? Really? In general? All? Some? Time must equal progress? New must > be better? There is nothing inherently superior about modern art, nor > anything inherently superior about abstract art. Actually, there is, but I'm not going to argue the point. I'll only say that you have misread me. By a hundred years behind in his appreciation of superior art I mean that he has not yet learned to appreciate superior works of art using techniques not in wide use a hundred years ago. Yes, Hyperbole (probably). Fifty years ago would be more accurate. >It's a meaningless > position, like maintaining that a poem which has been typed must be better > than one that is hand printed. Worthless analogy. It's more like maintaining that someone with all the knowledge of existence that has been discovered over the past hundred years, and all the new techniques available to poets, and all the works of culture of the past hundred years to refer to, must, other things being equal, write better poems than a person without these advantages. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 10 15:54:48 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 15:54:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel References: <009d01c2ff49$c36b9ba0$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> <011e01c2ff7f$1c7d5320$6601a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <00cc01c2ff9b$10d36b60$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> > On Thursday, April 10, 2003 2:12 AM, Bob Grumman > spake thusly: > > > Amusing nearprose--but is anyone seriously arguing she's > > "experimental?" > > Not that I know of, and thank God for that. I mean for the fact that she is > not being experimental. I could care less of someone maintains that she is > or not. > > c > -- > Chris Lott Would you care whether someone maintains she is an advertising copywriter for Cheerios or not? --Bob G. From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Apr 10 16:55:39 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 16:55:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <18d.1855ab17.2bc62a0b@cs.com> Message-ID: <006901c2ffa3$8ad45ac0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> I should make it clear that I'm not a Gioia-basher, and I think it is, on balance, a good thing that he's Arts-Schtarker. And if he wants representational art, he's certainly welcome to my portrait of him. And yeah, I'm willing to believe that the aggressive Philistinism of the quote is more likely attributable to Terry Ponick. I don't know if I can forgive Turner for that poem, though. And, Sam, thanks for the advice. I took three Ecstasy and I feel much better, indeed. Tad oh...wait...did I read that wrong? ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In a message dated 4/9/2003 7:21:46 PM Central Standard Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: My problem with Gioia is something like that. I have no idea what "I don't know what they mean" means. It's a pointless putdown, and it represents a real anti-art form of conformist thinking. Please take three Advil instead of two. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Thu Apr 10 17:01:52 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:01:52 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <20.ea0ddfd.2bc6211a@aol.com> <006b01c2ff48$09d0c400$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> <011601c2ff7e$f3cf81a0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00c201c2ff9a$da8b3d80$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <010901c2ffa4$6a3df540$5b15e589@devbox> On Thursday, April 10, 2003 11:53 AM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > Actually, there is, but I'm not going to argue the point. I'll only > say that you have misread me. By a hundred years behind in his > appreciation of superior art I mean that he has not yet learned to > appreciate superior works of art using techniques not in wide use a > hundred years ago. Yes, Hyperbole (probably). Fifty years ago would > be more accurate. No, there isn't. Your explanation of your own statement at least makes a smidgen of sense in a very limited context. > >> It's a meaningless >> position, like maintaining that a poem which has been typed must be >> better than one that is hand printed. > > Worthless analogy. It's more like maintaining that someone with all > the knowledge of existence that has been discovered over the past > hundred years, and all the new techniques available to poets, and all > the works of culture of the past hundred years to refer to, must, > other things being equal, write better poems than a person without > these advantages. No, now you are making an argument that progress in art happens like technological progress, a position which is not only unproven, but for which I see desperately little support in the world. More doesn't mean better, whether you mean a larger pool to draw from or a bigger basket of techniques. You only need that which has relevance to the work at hand and that which is needed to execute it. The availability of more tools simply means more product, not better. It's up to you to show otherwise. c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Thu Apr 10 17:04:11 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 13:04:11 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel References: <009d01c2ff49$c36b9ba0$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> <011e01c2ff7f$1c7d5320$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00cc01c2ff9b$10d36b60$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <010f01c2ffa4$bce244e0$5b15e589@devbox> On Thursday, April 10, 2003 11:54 AM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > Would you care whether someone maintains she is an advertising > copywriter for Cheerios or not? Not particularly. I'm more interested in the result of a person's efforts. The results of most of those who proclaim the experimental nature of their work and hang their hat on being non-traditional and "new" is execrable. Note this is different from *being* non-traditional in that there are many fine works to be had that are experimental in nature, though I suspect the proportion is considerably lower given a sample. Perhaps most of those experimentalists *should* be writing copy for Cheerios instead. c -- Chris Lott From JforJames at aol.com Thu Apr 10 17:43:05 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:43:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] About about Message-ID: <2b.3d39adfa.2bc73f69@aol.com> In a message dated 4/9/03 7:12:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > keep thinking of something Marilyn Nelson once wrote -- perhaps on CAP-L -- > about responding to a student who said, "I don't get what this poem is about." > Nelson asked, "Did you go home for Thanksgiving." "Yes." "Did you see your > family?" "Yes." "What's your mother about?" > > My problem with Gioia is something like that. I have no idea what "I don't > know what they mean" means. It's a pointless putdown, and it represents a > real anti-art form of conformist thinking. > Tad, from what others have said, it's probable that this quote was used to promote the interviewer's retrograde world-view, but whatever it's purpose, it probably bears remarking that abstract art doesn't mean any one thing. Under that rubric we have abstract expression, hard-edge (geometric) abstraction, abstract minimalism, lyrical abstraction, etc. Of course the whole painting-poetry (or painting-language) comparison is fraught with problems. The experiences being so different, it's very hard to speak of abstract poetry as being like abstract art in a meaningful way. I couldn't find "impasto" as a type font choice on my word processor, last time I looked. Mostly here I want to quibble about "about": My mom is about something. I could tell you a lot about her (inside or outside of poem). The first question that any array of language begs is, What is this about? Even reading pure poetry the mind can't help but grasp at straws of meaning, hints and associations that might make the sequence more coherent. If the reader makes "About what?" his/her only criterion of judgment, then you have a problem. But we'd be remiss (and dismissive of the authorial intent, in many cases) if we didn't pose that "about" question. Now some critics will say that the intent of the author is of no more importance than the experience of the reader. And that it shouldn't matter if reader A thinks the poem is about a zookeeper cleaning out a lion's cage, while reader B says the poem makes him think of pruning roses at dusk. Those critics are no better than hyper-religious devotees who too easily find Jesus in water-stains on a wall. Yes, the text can be about anything you want it to be about. But intention of content/effect do matter. To disregard intent is to devalue the author to a degree that makes the venture of what art is, suspect in the extreme. Finnegan From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Apr 10 17:58:56 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:58:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] About about References: <2b.3d39adfa.2bc73f69@aol.com> Message-ID: <000a01c2ffac$624ac400$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Jim -- I took Nelson's point to be a bit different -- more along the lines of how it's a mistake to reject a work or art or a genre of art by introducing a platitudinous and irrelevant yardstick. Now, if you see Sam, ask him if he has any more of that Ecstasy..... Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 5:43 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] About about > In a message dated 4/9/03 7:12:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > > > keep thinking of something Marilyn Nelson once wrote -- perhaps on CAP-L > -- > > about responding to a student who said, "I don't get what this poem is > about." > > Nelson asked, "Did you go home for Thanksgiving." "Yes." "Did you see your > > family?" "Yes." "What's your mother about?" > > > > My problem with Gioia is something like that. I have no idea what "I don't > > know what they mean" means. It's a pointless putdown, and it represents a > > real anti-art form of conformist thinking. > > > Tad, from what others have said, it's probable that this quote was > used to promote the interviewer's retrograde world-view, but whatever > it's purpose, it probably bears remarking that abstract art doesn't mean any > one thing. Under that rubric we have abstract expression, hard-edge > (geometric) abstraction, abstract minimalism, lyrical abstraction, etc. > > Of course the whole painting-poetry (or painting-language) comparison > is fraught with problems. The experiences being so different, it's > very hard to speak of abstract poetry as being like abstract art in > a meaningful way. I couldn't find "impasto" as a type font choice > on my word processor, last time I looked. > > Mostly here I want to quibble about "about": My mom is about > something. I could tell you a lot about her (inside or outside of poem). > The first question that any array of language begs is, What is > this about? Even reading pure poetry the mind can't help but > grasp at straws of meaning, hints and associations that might > make the sequence more coherent. If the reader makes "About what?" > his/her only criterion of judgment, then you have a problem. > But we'd be remiss (and dismissive of the authorial intent, > in many cases) if we didn't pose that "about" question. > > Now some critics will say that the intent of the author is of no > more importance than the experience of the reader. And that > it shouldn't matter if reader A thinks the poem is about a zookeeper > cleaning out a lion's cage, while reader B says the poem makes > him think of pruning roses at dusk. Those critics are no better > than hyper-religious devotees who too easily find Jesus in > water-stains on a wall. Yes, the text can be about anything you > want it to be about. But intention of content/effect do matter. > To disregard intent is to devalue the author to a degree that makes > the venture of what art is, suspect in the extreme. > > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 18:00:01 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:00:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <19d.1335486a.2bc74361@cs.com> In a message dated 4/10/2003 4:03:44 PM Central Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > Tad > > > oh...wait...did I read that wrong? > > > If we get sixty more messages from you in the next twenty-four hours, all proclaiming peace and goodwill to everything from mankind to fire hydrants, we'll know you swallowed from the wrong bottle. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Apr 10 18:03:13 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 17:03:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dead Al-Jazeera correspondent was deliberately targeted Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030410170202.011a5da8@mail.ilstu.edu> this is a press release forwarded by a list, so don't have the url for htis one. sorry. >Al Jazeera Satellite Channel press release >April 10 2003 > >Dead correspondent was deliberately targeted > >Colleagues of the Al-Jazeera correspondent killed on Tuesday when two US >missiles struck the Baghdad offices of the Qatar-based channel have said >they believe they were deliberately targeted. > >" I will not be objective about this because we have been dragged into >this conflict," said Tayseer Alouni. "We were targeted because the >Americans don't want the world to see the crimes they are committing >against the Iraqi people." > >Fatima Ayoub, the 14-month-old daughter of Jordanian Al Jazeera >correspondent Tareq Ayoub, is seen in front of a photograph of her >34-year-old father during a rally by several dozen journalists in Amman >April 9, 2003. > >His wife, Dima Tahboob, said she received phone calls from Ayoub >everyday. He was not scared at all, she said as she wept silently. > >The last time she spoke to him was Monday evening. He was exhausted and >his voice was tired, she said. He said they were barely sleeping three >hours a day. I tried to comfort him and then he told me not to worry, >saying that the situation was not bad for journalists. > >Probably everyone will forget him, maybe Al Jazeera will forget him, but >he is now with God who does not forget anyone. > >Another cameraman, Zuheir Iraqi, was slightly hurt in his neck by >shrapnel. > >They were both standing on the roof getting ready for a live broadcast >amid intensifying bombardment of the city when the building was hit by >two missiles, according to Tayseer Allouni, another Al Jazeera >correspondent. > >Cameraman Iraqi came down bleeding, but Ayoub did not show up. I ran up >as the shells were still falling and crawled on the roof and shouted for >Tariq, but he did not answer, Allouni said. > >Allouni had gone down because of the intense bombing. He later went up >again and with the help of Abu Dhabi TV correspondent, Jaber Obeid, >found Ayoubs body. > >Allouni, Jaber and others took Ayoub in an Abu Dhabi TV vehicle to a >hospital. > >Shortly afterwards, US warplanes returned to hit the neighbouring Abu >Dhabi TV offices. > >Another of Jazeera's Baghdad correspondents Majed Abdel Hadi called the >US missile strike and Ayoub's death a "crime". > >Al-Jazeera aired footage of Ayoub only one hour before his death as he >was preparing to go live. He was leaning on sandbags and wearing a >helmet and a flak jacket. > >I knew Tariq for 10 years, said Yasser Abu Hilalah, Al Jazeera >correspondent in Amman. He was very brave, professional and a hard >worker, he added. Al-Jazeera office is located in a residential area and >there is no way that the attack was a mistake. > >Ayoub, aged 35, was married with one daughter. He travelled to Baghdad >only five days ago to join the Al-Jazeera team from the channel's Amman >office where he had worked as a financial correspondent for three years. >Originally from Palestine, he had also worked for the Jordan Times and >the international news agency Associated Press. > >Earlier, Abdel-Hadi told our presenter that the Al-Jazeera office was >deliberately targeted and it is not the first time. Our Kabul office was >hit by four (US) missiles, he said. US warplanes hit the Afghanistan >office of Al-Jazeera in 2001, just 10 minutes after its correspondents >had received warning of an impending attack. > >Ayoub getting ready for a live broadcast an hour before his death > >Last week, the hotel where Al-Jazeera correspondents in the southern >Iraqi city of Basra were staying was also hit by four bombs that did not >explode. > >The Al-Jazeera team has no role in the war. We are only witnesses and >are reporting objectively. This proves that the US is trying to cover >the crimes it commits in its war on Iraq. Targeting witnesses is the >biggest crime, said Abdel-Hadi. > >The bombing left Al Jazeera's offices in ruin. But the channel said it >would continue its coverage of the US-led war on Iraq that began on >March 20. It is impossible to work in the office, but we will continue >to cover the war within the capabilities that we have and despite the >difficult circumstances, Abdel-Hadi said. > >The European Union said after the incident that it would call on the US >to keep journalists out of the firing line. > >Greek Foreign Minister George Papandreou and EU foreign policy chief >Javier Solana had "agreed to make a joint representation to the United >States in order to protect journalists," he said. "Greece condemns this >repugnant act and expresses its sorrow and regret." > >Two more journalists died and four others were injured when a US tank >round later hit the Palestine Hotel where at least 200 international >correspondents, including Al-Jazeera reporters, are staying. > >A Reuters journalist, Taras Protsyuk, 35, a Ukrainian national, who was >married with an eight-year-old son, was among the dead. > >"Taras's death, and the injuries sustained by the others, were so >unnecessary," said Reuters' editor in chief Geert Linnebank. > >He called into question the "judgement of advancing US troops who have >known all along that this hotel is the main base for almost all foreign >journalists in Baghdad." > >Reuters has its offices on the 15th floor of the Palestine Hotel which >houses most of the foreign media covering the Iraq war. Reporters carry >a wounded cameraman from a Spanish channel after Palestine Hotel was hit >by US missiles > >The 15th and 17th floors of the hotel were struck, blowing out windows >as fierce exchanges raged on the 20th day of the US-led war. > >The 14th floor was also damaged. A hole had been knocked in the hotel >facade, laying bare the metal structure of a column running past a >balcony. > >Dubai's Al-Arabiya television channel said its bureau on the 17th floor >also suffered damage. > >General Buford Blount, commander of the US 3rd Infantry Division said a >US tank was "receiving fire from the hotel, RPG (rocket-propelled >grenade)and small-arms fire, and engaged with one tank round. The firing >stopped." > >But BBC correspondent Rageh Omaar cast doubt on the US line saying he >heard no gunfire from the hotel prior to it being hit. --- Al Jazeera >with agencies > >Al Jazeera Satellite Channel press release From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 10 18:14:04 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:14:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <20.ea0ddfd.2bc6211a@aol.com> <006b01c2ff48$09d0c400$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> <011601c2ff7e$f3cf81a0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00c201c2ff9a$da8b3d80$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> <010901c2ffa4$6a3df540$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <012101c2ffae$819c6d20$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> > >It's more like maintaining that someone with all > > the knowledge of existence that has been discovered over the past > > hundred years, and all the new techniques available to poets, and all > > the works of culture of the past hundred years to refer to, must, > > other things being equal, write better poems than a person without > > these advantages. > > No, now you are making an argument that progress in art happens like > technological progress, a position which is not only unproven, but for which > I see desperately little support in the world. More doesn't mean better, > whether you mean a larger pool to draw from or a bigger basket of > techniques. You only need that which has relevance to the work at hand and > that which is needed to execute it. The availability of more tools simply > means more product, not better. > > It's up to you to show otherwise. > -- > Chris Lott Well, nothing can be proven to be better than another. We can, for instance, argue that medicine has not advanced but only allowed people to live long dilute lives instead of shorter intense lives. My demonstration would be simply to show Ulysses, for instance, against The Odyssey. There is simply more per unit in the former than there is in the latter. Except for what the latter has accrued simply by having been around for so long. Or consider serious music. Can you really believe that what the Greeks were composing could equal Beethoven, with his vastly superior instruments to exploit and all the musical knowledge that had been discovered since the Greeks? Ditto with the visual arts, with just about all the painting of the past millennia outdone by the camera--as art, if not as marvelous acts of phyical dexterity like juggling, and as historical artifacts. Final argument: if the cultural works of the past are equal to the cultural works made in the present, why are so few of the latter a directly living part of anyone's life? I say that the makers of the artworks of the past were equal to the makers of later artworks just as Newton was equal to Einstein but that their works were superceded, just as Newton's were. No more on this from me. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 10 18:17:40 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:17:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel References: <009d01c2ff49$c36b9ba0$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> <011e01c2ff7f$1c7d5320$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00cc01c2ff9b$10d36b60$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> <010f01c2ffa4$bce244e0$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <012701c2ffaf$017ca1e0$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> > > Would you care whether someone maintains she is an advertising > > copywriter for Cheerios or not? > Not particularly. Well, I think communication requires accurate labeling. >I'm more interested in the result of a person's efforts. > The results of most of those who proclaim the experimental nature of their > work and hang their hat on being non-traditional and "new" is execrable. The results of most of those who hang their hats on being traditional is not? Although, I doubt too much by anyone in the arts is as bad as execrable. > Note this is different from *being* non-traditional in that there are many > fine works to be had that are experimental in nature, though I suspect the > proportion is considerably lower given a sample. > > Perhaps most of those experimentalists *should* be writing copy for Cheerios instead. > c > -- > Chris Lott Except that even at their worst, they're revealing paths that might go somewhere worthwhile that traditionalists will never go to. --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Apr 10 18:15:35 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:15:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <012101c2ffae$819c6d20$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: { Final argument: if the cultural works of the past are equal to the cultural { works made in the present, why are so few of the latter a directly living { part of anyone's life? I say that the makers of the artworks of the past { were equal to the makers of later artworks just as Newton was equal to { Einstein but that their works were superceded, just as Newton's were. { { No more on this from me. { { --Bob G. Whew! Hal "I don't know what music is." --Ludvig van Beethoven Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 10 18:21:49 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:21:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] About about References: <2b.3d39adfa.2bc73f69@aol.com> Message-ID: <012e01c2ffaf$95b19c80$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> > Now some critics will say that the intent of the author is of no > more importance than the experience of the reader. And that > it shouldn't matter if reader A thinks the poem is about a zookeeper > cleaning out a lion's cage, while reader B says the poem makes > him think of pruning roses at dusk. Those critics are no better > than hyper-religious devotees who too easily find Jesus in > water-stains on a wall. Yes, the text can be about anything you > want it to be about. But intention of content/effect do matter. > To disregard intent is to devalue the author to a degree that makes > the venture of what art is, suspect in the extreme. > Finnegan I would agree with the preceding up to "But intention of content/effect do matter," which I would amend to "But communicated intention of content/effect do matter." In other words, so what if my intention in writing, "sjgh bruc," was to make you think of George Washington's mother's roses? --Bob G. From JackTar at aol.com Thu Apr 10 20:01:07 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:01:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Americans Target & Kill Journalists from Al-Jazeera & R... Message-ID: <1da.73dd218.2bc75fc3@aol.com> In a message dated 4/9/2003 9:27:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > Do you really believe the accusation that US troops are targeting > journalists I believe he explained his position on his posts in a recent email. Why do you feel the thought you hold is more valid than the thought he holds? Why waste energy on areas that detract? Wasted energy=dixie chicking someone... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Apr 10 21:19:31 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:19:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] About about Message-ID: <1e6.667805b.2bc77223@aol.com> In a message dated 4/10/03 6:04:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > ask him if he has any more of that Ecstasy..... > I've been on a natural high so long the angels look upon me with envy... A couple of years ago, I saw a video/interview with the abstract painter Joan Mitchell (she's dead, now). It was great piece, but at one point the interviewer says something like, "I see a lot of Matisse in your work?" To which Joan replies, "Just look at it, baby." Now, the interviewer was much too taken aback to pursue the question, but what was the real answer?: a) The influence is all there, you must be adled not to see it; or b) You're overthinking these painting, just look at them, experience them. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Thu Apr 10 21:40:28 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:40:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] quote du jour Message-ID: <188.17d9aba9.2bc7770c@aol.com> Isaiah Berlin was not in the first league of philosophers. He was not sufficiently inventive or dogmatic. He was to philosophy what John Betjeman was to poetry; extremely good, and comforting enough to be telling when he was gloomy. Richard D. North --Independent 29 July 2002 -- This arrived in my in-box, so I thought I'd pass it on. I love that bit a bout not being sufficiently inventive (Williams) or dogmatic (Pound), because it's too true (though, I hate to believe it). The phrase "comforting enough to be telling when he was gloomy," rings true, as well. Finnegan From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 21:41:18 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:41:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] About about Message-ID: <9b.36f6f90d.2bc7773e@cs.com> In a message dated 4/10/2003 5:02:55 PM Central Standard Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > > Now, if you see Sam, ask him if he has any more of that Ecstasy..... > > Tad There was a time in Sam's life when some of that stuff could have come in handy--whole crowns of sonnets in a single sitting and the hell with dancing in a stupid, smoke-filled nightclub all night--but now he'd worry too much about having a myocardial infarction in the middle of the thing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Apr 10 21:45:36 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:45:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] About about References: <1e6.667805b.2bc77223@aol.com> Message-ID: <006701c2ffcc$0cb95900$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Jim -- my stepfather was a great sculptor (see www.opus40.org), and his major work was a 6 1/2 acre environmental sculpture in stone, which has been open to the public since his death in 1976. Once I was showing around an art critic, who delivered this pronouncement: "I such *anger* there!" The only response I could think of (the response I actually gave was a polite smile) was, "Well, OK, this represents 40 years of work, day in and day out, and if you want to see anger, I suppose it's there, along with every other emotion. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] About about > In a message dated 4/10/03 6:04:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > > > ask him if he has any more of that Ecstasy..... > > > I've been on a natural high so long the angels > look upon me with envy... > A couple of years ago, I saw a video/interview with > the abstract painter Joan Mitchell (she's dead, now). > It was great piece, but at one point the interviewer > says something like, "I see a lot of Matisse in your work?" > To which Joan replies, "Just look at it, baby." > Now, the interviewer was much too taken aback to pursue > the question, but what was the real answer?: a) The influence > is all there, you must be adled not to see it; or b) You're > overthinking these painting, just look at them, experience them. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 21:45:19 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 21:45:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <126.26f41ce3.2bc7782f@cs.com> In a message dated 4/10/2003 5:14:55 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > Final argument: if the cultural works of the past are equal to the cultural > works made in the present, why are so few of the latter a directly living > part of anyone's life? I say that the makers of the artworks of the past > were equal to the makers of later artworks just as Newton was equal to > Einstein but that their works were superceded, just as Newton's were. > > No more on this from me. > > --Bob G. > If I walked into an office that someone else had previously decorated with Rothkos and I expressed a preference for a couple of Manets instead since, after all I was going to have to spend a considerable part of my time there for a few years, would that classify me as a Philistine? After all, it's my office, dammit, and I gotta wuk there. Personally, I'd rather have Alma-Tademas. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 10 22:15:15 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:15:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <126.26f41ce3.2bc7782f@cs.com> Message-ID: <019f01c2ffd0$3308f260$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> In a message dated 4/10/2003 5:14:55 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: Final argument: if the cultural works of the past are equal to the cultural works made in the present, why are so few of the latter a directly living part of anyone's life? I say that the makers of the artworks of the past were equal to the makers of later artworks just as Newton was equal to Einstein but that their works were superceded, just as Newton's were. No more on this from me. --Bob G. If I walked into an office that someone else had previously decorated with Rothkos and I expressed a preference for a couple of Manets instead since, after all I was going to have to spend a considerable part of my time there for a few years, would that classify me as a Philistine? After all, it's my office, dammit, and I gotta wuk there. Personally, I'd rather have Alma-Tademas. I'd never claim that a given early painter's works might not be better than a given later painter's. Nor that someone who liked Manet was a Philistine. But someone who thought Manet's works equal to or better than anything after him would be about as high on the painting-appreciation scale, in my view, as I am on the music-appreciation scale, my taste not going further than Shostakovich--except for the more accessible stuff of Glass. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Thu Apr 10 11:08:59 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:08:59 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be far behind?" In-Reply-To: <200304102057.h3AKv4ST006733@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304102057.h3AKv4ST006733@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Better than Halliburton would be Schlumberger - - Chirac's fave. Or, maybe you would prefer St. Marks Poetry Project SpOILers Ink. to extinguish any fire they don't like. Really, people, tsk, tsk, tsk. Those naughty bad Republican Oilers invented black gold in the Cretaceous Era and waited all this time, what, 20 million years, to invent HumVees to ride around in while juicing on Barbara Steisand singing, "Yankee Doodle" over Saddam graveyard. -- From wjbat at conncoll.edu Thu Apr 10 23:28:18 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:28:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] About about In-Reply-To: <006701c2ffcc$0cb95900$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <20030410232818.015290@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> TheOldMole wrote: >my stepfather was a great sculptor (see www.opus40.org), and his >major work was a 6 1/2 acre environmental sculpture in stone, which has been >open to the public since his death in 1976 Tad, Looks like a wonderful site. Have to go see it one of these days. Wendy ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu salt to the pleasure? sugar to the pleasure? pepper to the pleasure --from an unsigned recipe From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 23:36:13 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:36:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <18d.186530aa.2bc7922d@cs.com> In a message dated 4/10/2003 9:17:27 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > >> >> I'd never claim that a given early painter's works might not be better >> than a given later painter's. Nor that someone who liked Manet was a >> Philistine. But someone who thought Manet's works equal to or better than >> anything after him would be about as high on the painting-appreciation >> scale, in my view, as I am on the music-appreciation scale, my taste not >> going further than Shostakovich--except for the more accessible stuff of >> Glass. >> >> --Bob G. >> > Yeah, but what about Alam-Tadema? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 23:36:39 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:36:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <1d1.717a4d2.2bc79247@cs.com> In a message dated 4/10/2003 9:17:27 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > >> >> I'd never claim that a given early painter's works might not be better >> than a given later painter's. Nor that someone who liked Manet was a >> Philistine. But someone who thought Manet's works equal to or better than >> anything after him would be about as high on the painting-appreciation >> scale, in my view, as I am on the music-appreciation scale, my taste not >> going further than Shostakovich--except for the more accessible stuff of >> Glass. >> >> --Bob G. >> > Alma-Tadema, that is. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 10 23:39:10 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 23:39:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] About about Message-ID: <102.2b17fe3f.2bc792de@cs.com> In a message dated 4/10/2003 10:28:56 PM Central Standard Time, wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: > TheOldMole wrote: > >my stepfather was a great sculptor (see www.opus40.org), and his > >major work was a 6 1/2 acre environmental sculpture in stone, which has > been > >open to the public since his death in 1976 > > Tad, > Looks like a wonderful site. Have to go see it one of these days. > > Wendy Are there photos available? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 11 05:59:03 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 05:59:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <18d.186530aa.2bc7922d@cs.com> Message-ID: <007001c30010$fd321360$7f12fea9@j1c1k6> bobgrumman writes: I'd never claim that a given early painter's works might not be better than a given later painter's. Nor that someone who liked Manet was a Philistine. But someone who thought Manet's works equal to or better than anything after him would be about as high on the painting-appreciation scale, in my view, as I am on the music-appreciation scale, my taste not going further than Shostakovich--except for the more accessible stuff of Glass. --Bob G. Yeah, but what about Alam-Tadema? I never heard of Alma-Tadema but did a web-search. He seems to have painted nice photographs. My impression is that I would like his stuff better than Manet's--but would still consider Manet a much greater artist because more innovative (I've been led to believe). --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Apr 11 08:51:19 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 08:51:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] About about References: <20030410232818.015290@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <002801c30029$0ca4ec60$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Wendy -- it's not far from Connecticut. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wendy Battin" To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 11:28 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] About about TheOldMole wrote: >my stepfather was a great sculptor (see www.opus40.org), and his >major work was a 6 1/2 acre environmental sculpture in stone, which has been >open to the public since his death in 1976 Tad, Looks like a wonderful site. Have to go see it one of these days. Wendy ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu salt to the pleasure sugar to the pleasure pepper to the pleasure --from an unsigned recipe _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Apr 11 08:52:04 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 08:52:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] About about References: <102.2b17fe3f.2bc792de@cs.com> Message-ID: <003601c30029$2768e1f0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Sam -- I'll send you some. And I still owe you a book. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 11:39 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] About about In a message dated 4/10/2003 10:28:56 PM Central Standard Time, wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: TheOldMole wrote: >my stepfather was a great sculptor (see www.opus40.org), and his >major work was a 6 1/2 acre environmental sculpture in stone, which has been >open to the public since his death in 1976 Tad, Looks like a wonderful site. Have to go see it one of these days. Wendy Are there photos available? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Apr 11 08:49:43 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 08:49:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] About about In-Reply-To: <1e6.667805b.2bc77223@aol.com> Message-ID: { at one point the interviewer { says something like, "I see a lot of Matisse in your work?" { To which Joan replies, "Just look at it, baby." { Now, the interviewer was much too taken aback to pursue { the question, but what was the real answer?: a) The influence { is all there, you must be adled not to see it; or b) You're { overthinking these painting, just look at them, experience them. { Finnegan I'd much prefer to think it's the latter. Hal "One recognizes masterpieces by that impression of scorched earth they leave behind them." --Bertrand Poirot-Delpech Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Apr 11 10:31:19 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:31:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paragraphs by others: Emily Dickinson, fr. a letter to Susan Gilbert Message-ID: "I wept a tear here, Susie, on purpose for you--because this 'sweet silver moon' smiles in on me and Vinnie, and then it goes so far before it gets to you--and then you never told me if there was any moon in Baltimore--and how do I know Susie--that you see her sweet face at all? She looks like a fairy tonight, sailing around the sky in a little silver gondola with stars for gondoliers. I asked her to let me ride a little while ago--and told her I would get out when she got as far as Baltimore, but she only smiled to herself and went sailing on." --Emily Dickinson, letter to Susan Gilbert, Oct. 9, 1851 fr. Letters of Emily Dickinson I.I43-4 in notes by Anne Carson to her translation of Fragment 96 LP by Sappho in *Jubilat* #1, Spring 2000 Hal "Once upon a time Baltimore was necessary." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 11 10:37:38 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:37:38 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <12a.277fc400.2bc82d32@cs.com> In a message dated 4/11/2003 5:01:57 AM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > I never heard of Alma-Tadema but did a web-search. He seems to have > painted nice photographs. > > He was the Vargas of his day. Check out "The Favourite Poet." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daisyf1 at juno.com Fri Apr 11 10:51:24 2003 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:51:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alma-Tadema Message-ID: <20030411.105225.-357471.7.daisyf1@juno.com> Bob-- I think Alma-Tadema's much more corrupt than "nice": one of his famous ones is of the Bacchantes waking up dazed after a night's drunken revelry and (possibly also) tearing men to pieces...to many a modern eye he looks kinda kitsch-sleazy which is what makes him more interesting than a mere boring skilled person skilling. But yeah, though Alma-Tadema reproduces better (no challenging brush-strokes), Manet is absolutely more innovative, revolutionary would be a more accurate word, to say the least... Daisy >Yeah, but what about Alam-Tadema?=20 >I never heard of Alma-Tadema but did a web-search. He seems to have = >painted nice photographs. My impression is that I would like his stuff = >better than Manet's--but would still consider Manet a much greater = >artist because more innovative (I've been led to believe). >--Bob G. From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Fri Apr 11 11:05:43 2003 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard W. Wilsnack) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:05:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] People's Poetry Gathering Message-ID: <3.0.32.20030411100542.013f2610@medicine.nodak.edu> At 02:23 PM 3/29/03 EST, JforJames at aol.com wrote: >Subj: People's Poetry Gathering >Date: 3/28/03 9:13:33 PM Eastern Standard Time >From: announce at poetshouse.org (Poets House) >To: jeisgrau11 at hotmail.com > >Discover a paradise of poets at the People's Poetry Gathering, >co-sponsored by Poets House and City Lore, April 11-13, 2003, >three days when the air in Lower Manhattan shimmers with voices >in an exaltation of odes, sonnets, elegies, and poetry from >ancient songs to postmodern epics, with a special focus on >epics and ballads from around the world. Billy Collins has a feature article on the People's Poetry Gathering, with emphasis on ballads, in today's New York Times. I have reprinted the first few paragraphs below; the rest can be found (after registering for the NYT online) at: www.nytimes.com/2003/04/11/books/11poet.html?th Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu ---------------------------------------------------------- April 11, 2003 The Ballad of the Ballad, Poetry's Bearer of Bad News By BILLY COLLINS The true intellectual, it used to be said, is someone who can listen to the William Tell Overture without thinking of the Lone Ranger. Or, more to the present purpose, it is someone who can hear the word ballad without thinking of Tony Bennett. Instead of a well-known singer, "Sir Patrick Spens" and "Barbara Allen" will spring to the lips of the truly literate at the mention of ballad, and for the very high of brow, Thomas Percy's "Reliques of Ancient English Poetry" (1765) or Walter Scott's "Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border" (1803, as if you didn't know) may come to mind. This weekend, a singular opportunity to join this more enlightened group presents itself in the form of the People's Poetry Gathering, a biennial three-day series of readings and talks sponsored by Poets House, the 40,000- volume poetry library on Spring Street in SoHo, and City Lore, a nonprofit group that documents urban folk life. The focus will be on narrative poetry, particularly the ballad and its big brother, the epic. The events are many and varied, ranging from Donald Hall speaking on Thomas Hardy to a talk on the cross-dressing ballad (women dressing as men to have adventures), from a tribute to Alan Lomax to public readings of "Gilgamesh" and "Beowulf" in their entirety and an all-day reading of "The Odyssey" by the translator Robert Fagles and others aboard the Peking, a tall ship at the South Street Seaport. There will also be rapping and slamming (take your helmet), as well as cowboy lyrics, calypso and klezmer music (separately) and the story-poems of countries including Russia, Finland, Albania and Kazakhstan. But before you set out to be entertained and educated, here is a little crash course on the ballad. (...) --------------------------------------------------------- From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 11 11:07:45 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:07:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Alma-Tadema Message-ID: <1c5.759c07e.2bc83441@cs.com> In a message dated 4/11/2003 10:00:13 AM Central Standard Time, daisyf1 at juno.com writes: > But yeah, though Alma-Tadema reproduces better (no challenging > brush-strokes), Manet is absolutely more innovative, revolutionary would > be a more accurate word, to say the least... > > Daisy > The Gugenheim had a great show a couple of years ago that featured all of the Academic painters contemporary with the impressionists. Talk about kitsch! I loved it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sellwein at hotmail.com Fri Apr 11 11:11:47 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:11:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] About about Message-ID: Very nice, thanks for posting the link. The dedication is rare and tremendous. - Deborah In a message dated 4/10/2003 10:28:56 PM Central Standard Time, wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: TheOldMole wrote: >my stepfather was a great sculptor (see www.opus40.org), and his >major work was a 6 1/2 acre environmental sculpture in stone, which has been >open to the public since his death in 1976 _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From sellwein at hotmail.com Fri Apr 11 11:13:51 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:13:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paragraphs by others: Emily Dickinson, fr. a letter to Susan Gilbert Message-ID: Baltimore isn't so bad, you get used to the smell. - Deborah "I wept a tear here, Susie, on purpose for you--because this 'sweet silver moon' smiles in on me and Vinnie, and then it goes so far before it gets to you--and then you never told me if there was any moon in Baltimore--and how do I know Susie--that you see her sweet face at all? She looks like a fairy tonight, sailing around the sky in a little silver gondola with stars for gondoliers. I asked her to let me ride a little while ago--and told her I would get out when she got as far as Baltimore, but she only smiled to herself and went sailing on." --Emily Dickinson, letter to Susan Gilbert, Oct. 9, 1851 fr. Letters of Emily Dickinson I.I43-4 in notes by Anne Carson to her translation of Fragment 96 LP by Sappho in *Jubilat* #1, Spring 2000 Hal "Once upon a time Baltimore was necessary." --Gertrude Stein Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Apr 11 11:31:58 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 10:31:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Roosevelt in Trinidad Message-ID: Recent uproar about the ancient topic of poetry & politics caused me to revisit some old calypso records. Here's a jaunty little piece on American foreign policy, from Trinidad in 1937. It was also recorded in a nice version by Ry Cooder in the 1970s, from which I've taken the lyrics below, which differ slightly from the original in a couple spots. Roosevelt In Trinidad When Roosevelt came to the land of the hummingbird Shouts of welcome were heard (repeat) His visit to the island is bound to be An epoch in local history Definitely marking the new era Keeping Trinidad in America For this great man jubilation Was evinced by the entire population Friendship for the U.S.A. was shown And from his house the Stars and Stripes were flown For the State threw open the gates To the President of the United States No wonder everybody was glad To welcome Roosevelt to Trinidad We are privileged to see the democratic President of the great republic With his charming and genial personality And his wonderful urbanity We were charmed by his modest style And I was impressed by the famous Roosevelt smile No wonder everybody was glad At the great honor shown Trinidad We understand that the President had just been On a visit to Brazil and the Argentine With Mr. Cordell Hull in attendance They took part in a peace conference To stop war and atrocity And make the world safe for democracy The greatest event in the century In the interest of suffering humanity --Fitz Maclean. Calypso recorded by The Attila (Raymond Quevedo, 1937). *Roosevelt in Trinidad: Calypsos of Events, Places, and Personalities 1933-39*. Rounder Records, 1999. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From mandolin at mac.com Fri Apr 11 11:34:14 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:34:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Alma-Tadema Message-ID: <6980228.1050075254120.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Friday, April 11, 2003, at 10:51AM, Daisy Fried wrote: >Bob-- > >I think Alma-Tadema's much more corrupt than "nice": one of his famous >ones is of the Bacchantes waking up dazed after a night's drunken revelry >and (possibly also) tearing men to pieces...to many a modern eye he looks >kinda kitsch-sleazy which is what makes him more interesting than a mere >boring skilled person skilling. > That particular painting look much more modern than most of his work--and "corrupt" is a good word for it (not because it looks more modern). http://www.artrenewal.org/images/artists/a/Alma-Tadema_Lawrence/Exhausted_Maenides_after_the_Dance.jpg From daisyf1 at juno.com Fri Apr 11 12:19:38 2003 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:19:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Alma-Tadema Message-ID: <20030411.121941.-357471.9.daisyf1@juno.com> Wow, I hadn't seen this one before--vetty vetty interesting; thanks for the link--I was thinking of another much more "finished" Maenads painting with a larger group of women. Possibly I'm merging two different paintings in my memory. But he sure does like lassitudinous lightly-clothed women with vacant jaded stares, doesn't he? Daisy > > That particular painting look much more modern than most of his > work--and "corrupt" is a good word for it (not because it looks more > modern). > > http://www.artrenewal.org/images/artists/a/Alma-Tadema_Lawrence/Exhausted _Maenides_after_the_Dance.jpg > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 11 12:32:18 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:32:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Paragraphs by others: Emily Dickinson, fr. a letter to Susan... Message-ID: In a message dated 4/11/2003 9:36:51 AM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > I wept a tear here, Susie, on purpose for you--because this 'sweet > silver moon' smiles in on me and Vinnie, and then it goes so far > before it gets to you--and then you never told me if there was any > moon in Baltimore--and how do I know Susie--that you see her > sweet face at all? She looks like a fairy tonight, sailing around the > sky in a little silver gondola with stars for gondoliers. I asked her > to let me ride a little while ago--and told her I would get out > when she got as far as Baltimore, but she only smiled to herself > and went sailing on." I wept a Tear-- here--Susie On Purpose--just for you-- Because this sweet--and silver--Moon Smiles in--on Vinnie and me-- And then-- it goes so far Before it gets--to you-- And then-- you never told me If there was any Moon-- And how do I know--Susie-- You see her sweet Face--at all? She looks like a Fairy--tonight-- Sailing around the Sky-- In a little silver Gondola-- With Stars--for Gondoliers-- I asked her--to let me ride-- A while ago--and told her -- I would get out when she got As far--as Baltimore, But she smiled--only to herself-- And went--sailing on. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Apr 11 12:36:01 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:36:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Alma-Tadema Message-ID: <1e4.68d2193.2bc848f1@aol.com> In a message dated 4/11/03 12:21:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, daisyf1 at juno.com writes: > But he sure does like lassitudinous > lightly-clothed women with vacant jaded stares, doesn't he? > But I'm sure Sam admires A-T's paintings more for the way he handles marble and the architectural elements. Finnegan From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 11 12:38:43 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:38:43 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] About about Message-ID: <110.2252daa8.2bc84993@cs.com> In a message dated 4/11/2003 10:13:06 AM Central Daylight Time, sellwein at hotmail.com writes: > www.opus40.org Pretty amazing! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 11 12:43:41 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:43:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Alma-Tadema Message-ID: In a message dated 4/11/2003 11:37:28 AM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 4/11/03 12:21:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > daisyf1 at juno.com writes: > > >But he sure does like lassitudinous > > lightly-clothed women with vacant jaded stares, doesn't he? > > > But I'm sure Sam admires A-T's paintings more for > the way he handles marble and the architectural elements. > Finnegan Well, yes, but I have also noted many times that when I give readings the female members of the audience assume attitudes similar to these: http://www.mezzo-mondo.com/arts/mm/alma-tadema/ATL012.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Apr 11 12:46:31 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:46:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paragraphs by others: Emily Dickinson, fr. a letter to Susan... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Sam. There's always another way of looking at something. Ain't life grand? Hal CLO ED FOR REN VATION Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard I wept a tear here, Susie, on purpose for you--because this 'sweet silver moon' smiles in on me and Vinnie, and then it goes so far before it gets to you--and then you never told me if there was any moon in Baltimore--and how do I know Susie--that you see her sweet face at all? She looks like a fairy tonight, sailing around the sky in a little silver gondola with stars for gondoliers. I asked her to let me ride a little while ago--and told her I would get out when she got as far as Baltimore, but she only smiled to herself and went sailing on." I wept a Tear-- here--Susie On Purpose--just for you-- Because this sweet--and silver--Moon Smiles in--on Vinnie and me-- And then-- it goes so far Before it gets--to you-- And then-- you never told me If there was any Moon-- And how do I know--Susie-- You see her sweet Face--at all? She looks like a Fairy--tonight-- Sailing around the Sky-- In a little silver Gondola-- With Stars--for Gondoliers-- I asked her--to let me ride-- A while ago--and told her -- I would get out when she got As far--as Baltimore, But she smiled--only to herself-- And went--sailing on. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 11 13:27:22 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:27:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be far behind?" In-Reply-To: References: <200304102057.h3AKv4ST006733@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3E96C2BA.32722.1032D9@localhost> On 10 Apr 2003 at 23:08, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: > Better than Halliburton would be Schlumberger - - Chirac's fave. Or, > maybe you would prefer St. Marks Poetry Project SpOILers Ink. to > extinguish any fire they don't like.< The problem isn't that someone who knows how has to put out the firse -- the problem is that it always seems to just happen that big contributors to the Republican party get big contracts even when there are alternatives. It is at least the appearance of impropriety since there seems to have been no bid process, and the way it was done makes it seem probable that it was worse than merely the appearance of impropriety. > Really, people, tsk, tsk, tsk. Those naughty bad Republican Oilers > invented black gold in the Cretaceous Era and waited all this time, > what, 20 million years, to invent HumVees to ride around in while > juicing on Barbara Steisand singing, "Yankee Doodle" over Saddam > graveyard.< What has this "Republicans invented oil in the Cretaceous" have to do with anything? It's surreally irrelevant nonsense. No one is accusing the Republicans of inventing oil in the Cretaceous -- the accusation is that the Republicans are corrupt and dishonest. And using nonsensical rhetorical tricks to defend against accusations of corruption and dishonesty makes it look as if there are no other possible defenses, so you thought you'd give nonsense a try. Pfui. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From sellwein at hotmail.com Fri Apr 11 13:33:24 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:33:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Alma-Tadema Message-ID: Many poetry sites use images of his paintings and artists with similar images, for 'inspiration' writing, or response poetry. William B - is probably the most popular in this genre. There are some decent renditions of architectural detail which provides a good tension and contrast to the perceived mindlessness and complacency of the female subjects. deborah russell http://www.worldhaikureview.org http://groups.msn.com/ParallelsStudio ************************************ In a message dated 4/11/03 12:21:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, daisyf1 at juno.com writes: But he sure does like lassitudinous lightly-clothed women with vacant jaded stares, doesn't he? But I'm sure Sam admires A-T's paintings more for the way he handles marble and the architectural elements. Finnegan _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 11 14:40:04 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:40:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <011601c2ff7e$f3cf81a0$6601a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <3E96D3C4.22926.52C453@localhost> > On Thursday, April 10, 2003 2:00 AM, Bob Grumman > spake thusly: > > it shows, as so much does, that he's a hundred > > years behind in his appreciation of superior art. Chris Lott: > Superior? Really? In general? All? Some? Time must equal progress? New must > be better? There is nothing inherently superior about modern art, nor > anything inherently superior about abstract art. It's a meaningless > position, like maintaining that a poem which has been typed must be better > than one that is hand printed. But that's just exactly what Bob Grumman's opinion seems to be: that new is better, that there's a progress in these things, and that he knows what that progress is. Remember how vociferously he argued that his mathemaku and similar works are the "fosbury flop" of contemporary poetry: better because a new technique. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 11 14:40:04 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:40:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <00c201c2ff9a$da8b3d80$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E96D3C4.92.52C522@localhost> Bob Grumman > > > it shows, as so much does, that he's a hundred > > > years behind in his appreciation of superior art. Chris Lott: > > Superior? Really? In general? All? Some? Time must equal progress? New > must > > be better? There is nothing inherently superior about modern art, nor > > anything inherently superior about abstract art. Bob Grumman: > Actually, there is, but I'm not going to argue the point.<< No, of course not -- he'll only say that he doesn't have time to condescend to speak of such things to those who cannot possibly plumb the depths of his profundities. Pfui. Bob Grumman: > I'll only say that you have misread me. By a hundred years behind > in his appreciation of superior art I mean that he has not yet > learned to appreciate superior works of art using techniques not in > wide use a hundred years ago.<< That's not misreading you, Bob -- that's you not saying what you mean. And a claim that you're misread when you simply haven't said what you meant to say is disingenuous. Bob Grumman: > ... It's more like maintaining that someone with all the > knowledge of existence that has been discovered over the past hundred years, > and all the new techniques available to poets, and all the works of culture > of the past hundred years to refer to, must, other things being equal, > write better poems than a person without these advantages. Preposterous unless you're really willing to say that there really is a progression of good writing that lets you say that people who came after Shakespeare wrote better BECAUSE they came after Shakespeare; that Sheridan's plays are better than Shakespeare's BECAUSE Sheridan wrote after Shakespeare did. It's a silly, reductionist, and na?ve argument. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 11 14:55:39 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:55:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] About about In-Reply-To: <012e01c2ffaf$95b19c80$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E96D76B.25397.6108EB@localhost> Bob Grumman: > ... I would > amend to "But communicated intention of content/effect do matter." In other > words, so what if my intention in writing, "sjgh bruc," was to make you > think of George Washington's mother's roses? I wouldn't be a bit surprised. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 11 15:01:35 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:01:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Americans Target & Kill Journalists from Al-Jazeera & R... In-Reply-To: <1da.73dd218.2bc75fc3@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E96D8CF.2760.6679A1@localhost> Marcus Bales > > Do you really believe the accusation that US troops are targeting > > journalists Jack Tar: > ... Why do you feel the thought you hold is more valid than the > thought he holds? Why waste energy on areas that detract? Wasted > energy=dixie chicking someone... < Why do you feel that what you hold is more valid than what I hold -- as is implicit in your attempt to pretend that I'm wasting energy by responding? Why not tell the original poster not to waste energy making the original post? Why not forbear wasting energy in making your own post? Your implict claim here is that disagreement on a discussion list is a waste of energy. If that's what you really think, why don't you simply resign from all lists and just sit there by yourself? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Apr 11 15:04:20 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:04:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prose poem for peace Message-ID: from Scott Ritter in an interview with Time magazine from last year: "The prison in question was inspected by my team in Jan. 1998. It appeared to be a prison for children - toddlers up to pre-adolescents - whose only crime was to be the offspring of those who have spoken out politically against the regime of Saddam Hussein. It was a horrific scene. Actually I'm not going to describe what I saw there because what I saw was so horrible that it can be used by those who would want to promote war with Iraq, and right now I'm waging peace." --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From chris at chrislott.org Fri Apr 11 15:48:05 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:48:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <20.ea0ddfd.2bc6211a@aol.com> <006b01c2ff48$09d0c400$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> <011601c2ff7e$f3cf81a0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00c201c2ff9a$da8b3d80$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> <010901c2ffa4$6a3df540$5b15e589@devbox> <012101c2ffae$819c6d20$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <026401c30063$46403080$5b15e589@devbox> On Thursday, April 10, 2003 2:14 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > Can you really believe that what the > Greeks were composing could equal Beethoven, with his vastly superior > instruments to exploit and all the musical knowledge that had been > discovered since the Greeks? Ditto with the visual arts, with just > about all the painting of the past millennia outdone by the > camera--as art, if not as marvelous acts of phyical dexterity like > juggling, and as historical artifacts. Of course I can. You are just restating your own argument that art progresses in a way people maintain technology does. I don't yet see the proof. Are you maintaining that the best novels of the period 1800-1900 compared to the best of 1900-2000 will necessarily yield the "top" being from the latter because it came later? That is absurd on its face. None have yet topped Milton and Blake, though others have done new and equally wonderful things. But to maintain that the best of today has to be better than the best of yesterday is a contention for which I still see no proof. > Final argument: if the cultural works of the past are equal to the > cultural works made in the present, why are so few of the latter a > directly living part of anyone's life? I say that the makers of the > artworks of the past were equal to the makers of later artworks just > as Newton was equal to Einstein but that their works were superceded, > just as Newton's were. > > No more on this from me. False analogy. Again you are making an implicit claim that artistic "progress" is somehow the same as a common perception of progress in science and technology. All I need to do is hold up a volume by Swinburne or a painting by El Greco and proclaim "I refute you thus." But surely your argument has more to it than that, otherwise I am just flabbergasted (or you are trying to make some kind of joke I am not getting). No one has bettered Dante, Neruda or Basho. There are new and exciting worlds of poetry, and each has their few who lie at the top, but comparing them to one another and proclaiming one better because they are newer is preposterous. Similarly with painting. New Mercedes have a finer system for braking, better use of fuel, and more precise electronics and that makes them better cars, but when it comes to the design-- the ART of the car-- they have not progressed at all. Paintbrush fibers have become better and paints have become better (well, some of them) and canvas more uniform-- but that has nothing to do with what makes a painting great. I realized you have this idea that different = better but wow. c -- Chris Lott From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 11 15:50:33 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:50:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E96D3C4.92.52C522@localhost> Message-ID: <00a501c30063$9eaff5c0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman > > > > it shows, as so much does, that he's a hundred > > > > years behind in his appreciation of superior art. > > Chris Lott: > > > Superior? Really? In general? All? Some? Time must equal progress? New > > must > > > be better? There is nothing inherently superior about modern art, nor > > > anything inherently superior about abstract art. > > Bob Grumman: > > Actually, there is, but I'm not going to argue the point.<< > > No, of course not -- he'll only say that he doesn't have time to > condescend to speak of such things to those who cannot possibly plumb > the depths of his profundities. Pfui. No possibility that I have other things to do than get involved in a complex discussion. I believe Marcus has never suggested my motives for anything might innocent. > Bob Grumman: > > I'll only say that you have misread me. By a hundred years behind > > in his appreciation of superior art I mean that he has not yet > > learned to appreciate superior works of art using techniques not in > > wide use a hundred years ago.<< > > That's not misreading you, Bob -- that's you not saying what you > mean. I said EXACTLY what I meant. Dana Gioia is a hundred years behind in his appreciation of serious art. You thnk that can mean only one thing, but it can be taken several ways. Hence, I had to specify the way I intended it to be taken. >And a claim that you're misread when you simply haven't said > what you meant to say is disingenuous. > > Bob Grumman: > > ... It's more like maintaining that someone with all the > > knowledge of existence that has been discovered over the past hundred years, > > and all the new techniques available to poets, and all the works of culture > > of the past hundred years to refer to, must, other things being equal, > > write better poems than a person without these advantages. > > Preposterous unless you're really willing to say that there really is > a progression of good writing that lets you say that people who came > after Shakespeare wrote better BECAUSE they came after Shakespeare; It's more complex than that. As usual, you are trying to rewrite me in hopes of getting me to trip badly in trying to do so. I will not do it here. > that Sheridan's plays are better than Shakespeare's BECAUSE Sheridan > wrote after Shakespeare did. It's a silly, reductionist, and na?ve argument. You have me wrong. And you are not worth setting right. --Bob G. From chris at chrislott.org Fri Apr 11 15:56:29 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 11:56:29 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel References: <009d01c2ff49$c36b9ba0$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> <011e01c2ff7f$1c7d5320$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00cc01c2ff9b$10d36b60$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> <010f01c2ffa4$bce244e0$5b15e589@devbox> <012701c2ffaf$017ca1e0$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <026c01c30064$7242dce0$5b15e589@devbox> On Thursday, April 10, 2003 2:17 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: I'm skipping discussion of your categorization fetish. > The results of most of those who hang their hats on being traditional > is not? Although, I doubt too much by anyone in the arts is as bad as > execrable. You really should read whole messages, Bob, since I answered this in the very next sentence: >> Note this is different from *being* non-traditional in that there >> are many fine works to be had that are experimental in nature, >> though I suspect the proportion is considerably lower given a sample. >> Perhaps most of those experimentalists *should* be writing copy for >> Cheerios instead. c >> -- >> Chris Lott > > Except that even at their worst, they're revealing paths that might go > somewhere worthwhile that > traditionalists will never go to. No, at their worst they are wanking and mistaking it for sex. At their best they are doing something profound, and in the middle they are hoping for some insight. Just like the rest of the artists in every other field. You seem to have a very narrow definition of "new" and you place a lot of stock in newness over quality. I'm fine with finding poetry that does something new, as long as that newness is tied to quality rather than the sake of being different. There can be newness still in a form as old as a sonnet, for that matter, just as surely as there is something new in the most experimental poetry. The kind of new thing I like is a new idea, a new use of words, a new cohesive effect coming from a work of art. Throwing in keyboard characters, utilizing odd spacing, being willfully obscurist, etc in an attempt to be new and then thinking it is profound is precisely the wrong approach because anyone can do it and it has no larger value. You said so in so many words yourself when you discussed your little "Tender Buttons" mockery, didn't you? The only way this can really be interesting is by example. Please, post an example of the underappreciated, cutting-edge poet who is not only being experimental, but also creating a complete piece of high quality. Show me the unappreciated. Show me the practitioners who are making good experimental poetry. Not just the ones who are doing something different. After all, asdfkjl98923 #$#@ fee fi fo fum is different. c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Fri Apr 11 16:07:51 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:07:51 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Alma-Tadema References: <20030411.121941.-357471.9.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <02d301c30066$088cdf60$5b15e589@devbox> On Friday, April 11, 2003 8:19 AM, Daisy Fried spake thusly: > he sure does like lassitudinous > lightly-clothed women with vacant jaded stares, doesn't he? Doesn't everyone? c -- Chris Lott From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 11 16:15:23 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:15:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <20.ea0ddfd.2bc6211a@aol.com> <006b01c2ff48$09d0c400$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> <011601c2ff7e$f3cf81a0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00c201c2ff9a$da8b3d80$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> <010901c2ffa4$6a3df540$5b15e589@devbox> <012101c2ffae$819c6d20$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> <026401c30063$46403080$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <00be01c30067$18e68d60$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> > On Thursday, April 10, 2003 2:14 PM, Bob Grumman > spake thusly: > > > Can you really believe that what the > > Greeks were composing could equal Beethoven, with his vastly superior > > instruments to exploit and all the musical knowledge that had been > > discovered since the Greeks? Ditto with the visual arts, with just > > about all the painting of the past millennia outdone by the > > camera--as art, if not as marvelous acts of phyical dexterity like > > juggling, and as historical artifacts. > Of course I can. You are just restating your own argument that art > progresses in a way people maintain technology does. I don't yet see the > proof. Are you maintaining that the best novels of the period 1800-1900 > compared to the best of 1900-2000 will necessarily yield the "top" being > from the latter because it came later? That is absurd on its face. It's more complex than that. Key phrase: "other things being equal." >None have > yet topped Milton and Blake, though others have done new and equally > wonderful things. I'm not big on Milton or Blake, but what if either were alive today? Do you really think he'd be unable to top his predecessor's work? >But to maintain that the best of today has to be better > than the best of yesterday making certain common sense assumptions such as no wide-spread lethal plague, etc. >is a contention for which I still see no proof. Of course not. It's not provable, it's only very reasonable. Why should the arts be different from technology? If cars can be superior to horse-drawn chariots, why can't modern poems be better than ancient poems? > > Final argument: if the cultural works of the past are equal to the > > cultural works made in the present, why are so few of the latter a > > directly living part of anyone's life? I say that the makers of the > > artworks of the past were equal to the makers of later artworks just > > as Newton was equal to Einstein but that their works were superceded, > > just as Newton's were. > > > > No more on this from me. > > False analogy. Again you are making an implicit claim that artistic > "progress" is somehow the same as a common perception of progress in science > and technology. All I need to do is hold up a volume by Swinburne or a > painting by El Greco and proclaim "I refute you thus." Gee, I said no more on this from me. One more lie, I guess. Your analogy is lousy. That art in general will advance does not mean that some old art will be not better than some new art. > But surely your argument has more to it than that, otherwise I am just > flabbergasted (or you are trying to make some kind of joke I am not > getting). > No one has bettered Dante, Neruda or Basho. There are new and exciting > worlds of poetry, and each has their few who lie at the top, but comparing > them to one another and proclaiming one better because they are newer is > preposterous. I never said anyone is better than someone else because newer. Your three have been bettered, in my opinion, but saying by whom and how, etc., would take way too long for me to get into here. > Similarly with painting. > > New Mercedes have a finer system for braking, better use of fuel, and more > precise electronics and that makes them better cars, but when it comes to > the design-- the ART of the car-- they have not progressed at all. Well, some things do reach a peak. But the art of the car is trivial. Cars are better, their unimproved visual appearance notwithstanding (though I bet superior paint DOES make some of them prettier). > Paintbrush fibers have become better and paints have become better (well, > some of them) and canvas more uniform-- but that has nothing to do with what > makes a painting great. > > I realized you have this idea that different = better but wow. What if I told you I found your idea that artworks do not have to be different from one another to be good bizarre? You might find that a preposterously poor representation of your beliefs but I don't find it more preposterous a representation of them than yours above of mine. And now I really am going to stop with all this. I AM merely restating my position. What few points I had to make, I've made. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 11 16:33:34 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:33:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel References: <009d01c2ff49$c36b9ba0$e7a2fea9@j1c1k6> <011e01c2ff7f$1c7d5320$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00cc01c2ff9b$10d36b60$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> <010f01c2ffa4$bce244e0$5b15e589@devbox> <012701c2ffaf$017ca1e0$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> <026c01c30064$7242dce0$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <00c601c30069$a0a8f7e0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> > The only way this can really be interesting is by example. Please, post an > example of the underappreciated, cutting-edge poet who is not only being > experimental, but also creating a complete piece of high quality. Show me > the unappreciated. Show me the practitioners who are making good > experimental poetry. Not just the ones who are doing something different. > After all, > > asdfkjl98923 #$#@ fee fi fo fum > > is different. > > c > -- > Chris Lott As I told you once before, Chris, texts like "asdfkjl98923 #$#@ fee fi fo fum" are NOT different (in any important sense). They are standard nonsense. As for some poetry, most of which uses techniques not in wide-spread use fifty years ago, try http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com First issue just up--with work by me AND new-poetry's Halvard Johnson! Or order a copy of WRITING TO BE SEEN, volume 1, which I co-edited, if you can find one available anywhere. Visio-textual art. Or go to: http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm which has a huge selection of stuff. Michael Basinski's "The Coming of the Circles" is a favorite of mine that is there. I don't see much point in trying to give you a list of "best works," because I'm not that sure which are the best, or even which are good, which not-that-good. --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Apr 11 16:47:13 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 15:47:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carl Dennis Message-ID: I'm just now catching up with Carl Dennis's 2001 book, *Practical Gods*, which won the Pulitzer for 2002. I'd seen a few poems from it last year in the wake of his prize, but had not sat down & and read through the whole book before now. Curious book as a major prize winner, I think. Not because it's a poor collection, but because it's so quiet, contemplative, so studious about avoiding any sort of dazzle and flash, either of language or of subject. It's the opposite of sensational, and rather Jamesean in its pacing (if not its syntax, which is plain and functional). There's little in the texture of the language to call attention to itself, for good or ill. Located rather far toward the prose end of the poetic spectrum, the poems tend to be highly reflective little essays about the big subjects: fate, friendship, history's pageant, art, God, mortality, etc. --usually with the merest suggestion of image or anecdote to frame the poet's musings. The tone is autumnal, understated, occasionally a tad wry but never truly funny. His conclusions are seldom striking or dramatic, and the book as a whole sighs wistfully about fate, friendship, etc. If the above description makes *Practical Gods* sound pretty dull, well, that was my first impression, too. But the book grew on me as I read through it, and I finished it eager to begin again. Dennis is apparently one of those poets whose work gathers strength when read at length. I'll paste a few sample poems below. View of Delft In the view of Delft that Vermeer presents us The brick facades of the unremarkable buildings Lined up at the river's edge manage to lift the spirits Though the sky is cloudy. A splash of sun That yellows some gables in the middle distance May be enough to explain it, or the loving detail Vermeer has given the texture of brick and stone As if he leveled each course with his own trowel. Doubtless stones in Cleveland or Buffalo May look like this on a day when the news arrives That a friend is coming to visit, but the stones in the painting Also put one in mind of the New Jerusalem, A city we've never seen and don't believe in. Why eternal Jerusalem when the people of Delft Grow old and die as they do in other cities, In high-ceilinged airy rooms and in low-beamed Smoky basements, quickly, or after a stubborn illness, Alone, or surrounded by friends who will soon feel Delft To be a place of abandonment, not completion? Maybe to someone returning on a cloudy day After twenty years of banishment the everyday buildings Can look this way or to someone about to leave On a journey he isn't ready to take. But these moods Won't last long while the mood in the painting Seems undying, though the handful of citizens Strolling the other side of the river are too preoccupied To look across and admire their home. Vermeer has to know that the deathless city Isn't the Delft where he'll be walking to dinner In an hour or two. As for your dinner, isn't it time To close the art book you've been caught up in, Fetch a bottle of wine from the basement, and stroll Three blocks to the house where your friend is waiting? Don't be surprised if the painting lingers awhile in memory And the trees set back on a lawn you're passing Seem to say that to master their language of gestures Is to learn all you need to know to enter your life And embrace it tightly, with a species of joy You've yet to imagine. But this joy, disguised, The painting declares, is yours already. You've been longing again for what you have. - Carl Dennis ------------------------------------------ Improbable Story Far from here, in the probable world, The stable reign of the dinosaurs Hasn't been brought to a sudden, unlooked-for end By a billion-to-one crash with an asteroid Ten miles across at impact, or a comet. No dust cloud there darkens the sky Till it snuffs out half the kingdom of vegetation, As it might in a B movie from Hollywood, And half the animal families, The heavy feeders and breathers among them. The dinosaurs rule the roost over there, And the mammals, forced to keep hidden, Only survive as pygmies. No time for the branching That leads to us. None of our lean-tos or igloos, Churches or silos, dot the landscape, No schools or prisons. Not a single porch Where you can sit as you're sitting here Writing to Martha that your fog has lifted, That despite the odds against transformation You've left the age of ambivalence far behind you. Over there, in the probable world, your "yes" Means what it always has, "Who knows?" Your "maybe" means that your doubts are overwhelming. Martha doesn't believe one sentence as she reads In the shade of a willow that could never survive The winter's killer ice storms. No purple martins return In the probable world to the little house you made them, Ready to eat in a week their weight in mosquitoes While Martha completes a letter that over there She'll never be foolish enough to begin. --Carl Dennis -------------------------------------------- Sunrise The Aztecs may not, after all, have been brutal Though they believed the sun wouldn't rise Unless the shrines of the sun god reeked with the odor Of human blood. Maybe their notion of debt Was stricter than ours. What could they pay the sun For the priceless gift of corn but men and women With their lives before them, young and happy? As for a god who didn't expect repayment, Who was happy to give as long as our species Showed it was grateful, more a parent than lender ? That notion was no more rational than the other And far less likely to explain disaster Though in the long run it proved as practical As other great inventions, the lever, the wheel. Just the token first fruits of the field, Just the firstlings among the goats and lambs Sacrificed in the Temple to the sound of chanting. And when the Romans pulled the Temple down, The scattered worshipers decided upon a god Who was willing to come with them into exile, To forgo his rich diet of cattle And make do with a bowl of peas or lentils Left in the night at the door of a widow's cottage. For a god so loyal, his people were willing To overlook his inability to protect them, Taking the blame on themselves instead. And didn't their refusal to cast a shadow On his reputation for justice win them an extra Ounce of forgiveness when they tried his patience? They tried his patience on days when the law Felt to them like a burden, not like a blessing, But by most evenings they'd worked their way, Grumbling, back to acceptance. And at night, Worn out from the effort, they slept hard, And hours later were sleeping still When the sun god they didn't worship Rose in the dark on his own to feed his horses, Just as his sunny nature prompted, And hitch his golden chariot. --Carl Dennis ---------------------------------- BASHO When my tastes seem too haphazard and disjointed To compose a character, it's a comfort To think of them as inherited from my ancestors, Each expressing through me ancient inflections. My need before supper to stroll to the reservoir May indicate on my father's side nomadic origins, The blood of a captive from Scythia who was sold To a family in Lombardy in need of a plowman. His marriage to a slave girl from Carthage Explains why sea air smells so familiar, Why I like the look of whitewashed houses on hillsides And painted tile from Tunisia or Morocco. To be a vehicle for the dead to speak through, Surely that's an improvement over being a showman Who shifts his costume to please a moody audience. It's a comfort as long as I've many dead to choose from. Free to trace my talent for telling stories At a moment's notice in the style of Odysseus All the way back on my mother's side To a black-bearded Smyrna merchant. His skill makes me star at the tourist bureau When I'm asked for ideas to make Lake Erie More glamorous than it is in the current brochures, The photographs more arresting, the copy spicier. Good thing for the tourists I've also inherited Truth-telling genes from the Hebrew prophets That keep me from claiming our seagulls special, As musical as the nightingale and as retiring. So many dispositions, but no reason to worry About caulking and splicing them into unity. Each ancient voice asks to be kept distinct, A separate species of tree in a crowded forest, Cedar and pine, oak, ash, and cherry. It isn't an accident, as I sit in the yard reading poems Under the hemlock, that I'm drawn to Basho. It's clear that his blood flows in my veins, Clear he's my father or else my twin Misplaced at birth in shorthanded village hospital. How else explain that a poem of his Is nearer to me than the proverbs of seven uncles? Witness the first haiku in the new translation I bought this morning at Niagara Books: "Even in Kyoto, hearing the cuckoo's cry, I long for Kyoto." --Carl Dennis ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Apr 11 16:48:32 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 16:48:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel In-Reply-To: <00c601c30069$a0a8f7e0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: { First issue just up--with work by me AND new-poetry's Halvard Johnson! Or { order a copy of WRITING TO BE SEEN, volume 1, which I co-edited, if you can { find one available anywhere. Visio-textual art. Hey, yeah, I thought I saw you there, Bob--way up ahead on the far horizon, while I'm way back here, puffing hard and trying to catch up with some of the old guys. Almost didn't recognize you from behind. Hal Braised pork bun (Taiwanese style) Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 11 17:03:59 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:03:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel In-Reply-To: <00c601c30069$a0a8f7e0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E96F57F.8829.D689DE@localhost> On 11 Apr 2003 at 16:33, Bob Grumman wrote: > ... I don't see much point in > trying to give you a list of "best works," > because I'm not that sure which are the best, or even which are good, which > not-that-good.<< Well, that's the fundamental, central failure in your claim, then, isn't it, Bob? If you haven't got any standards by which to judge what's best, or even good, or even not-that-good, then there's nothing, nothing whatever, to keep anyone from dismissing them all as worthless junk out of hand. Your mere assertion, absent any well-articulated standards, is refuted, not just rebutted, but refuted, made null and void, by anyone else's mere assertion that you're wrong, or that the works you refer to are worthless junk. You have to be able to do better than "I can't tell" or else your assertion that any of it is any good is just as worthless as the junk you're promoting. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 11 17:09:49 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:09:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <00be01c30067$18e68d60$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E96F6DD.27908.DBE4F3@localhost> > And now I really am going to stop with all this. I AM merely restating my > position. What few points I had to make, I've made. Just as badly as usual; just as unpersuasively as usual; just as self- contradictorily as usual. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 11 17:17:06 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:17:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <00a501c30063$9eaff5c0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> > > Bob Grumman: > > > Actually, there is, but I'm not going to argue the point.<< Marcus Bales: > > No, of course not -- he'll only say that he doesn't have time to > > condescend to speak of such things to those who cannot possibly plumb > > the depths of his profundities. Pfui. Bob Grumman: > No possibility that I have other things to do than get involved in a complex > discussion. << Then why bother to say anything at all on a discussion list? Why not hold your opinions until you find a place where you can offer them sure that no one could possibly disagree? Why not find a choir to preach to? Bob Grumman: > I said EXACTLY what I meant. Dana Gioia is a hundred years behind in his > appreciation of serious art. You thnk that can mean only one thing, but it > can be taken several ways. Hence, I had to specify the way I intended it to > be taken.< You didn't say "serious art" -- you said "superior art". If saying "superior art" means EXACTLY "serious art", then I guess you said "EXACTLY" what you meant -- but even you can't really hold that "superior" means "serious". You didn't say exactly what you meant, in short. You said something other than what you meant, as you usually do, and when you're challenged on it you did as you usually do: pretend that you're outraged to find anyone is actually reading what you actually wrote. Your claim that you said exactly what you meant is simply wrong on the face of it. Bob Grumman: > ... As usual, you are trying to rewrite me in > hopes of getting me to trip badly in trying to do so. I will not do it > here.<< You've already done it. Tripping up is what you do with boring predictability -- no one has to "get you to". You do it on your own without help. And when others point it out you get all huffy and claim that you don't have time to participate in the discussion that you yourself so often start by posts that are so often egregiously, provocatively, wrong. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From schloss at mail.com Fri Apr 11 18:11:19 2003 From: schloss at mail.com (Christopher Walker) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 23:11:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Roosevelt in Trinidad References: Message-ID: <008b01c30077$47eb3150$53ef28c3@Schloss> Recent uproar about the ancient topic of poetry & politics caused me to revisit some old calypso records. [David Graham] Yes indeed. There's also *Exploiting* by The Caresser (Rufus Callender) on the subject of Full Spectrum Dominance and Old Europe. Its chorus is: Buy me a Zeppelin, dou-dou darling, Buy me a Zeppelin, you could believe, Or a steamboat and then I must Be an exploiter like Colombus. Here's an excerpt: I want to go wandering around the world, I mean touching all seas from North to South pole, To Greenland, Finland, Iceland and all, Then to the Niagara water falls, so darling - chorus Even like Lord Nelson I'd like to be, I mean the ruler of the air, the land and the sea, To acquire power wherever I go, Like Don Antonio de Berio, so darling - chorus I don't mind if I'm all alone, But I'll take the chance through the Canal Zone, And then through the desert of Sahara, To see my grandparents in Africa, so darling - chorus Then every schoolchild will be taught the name, Caresser, who acquired unrivalled fame, Even bolder, and more courageous, Than the old man, Christopher Columbus, so darling - chorus (Recorded 1938, in Port of Spain; available on another Rounder CD) CW From elemenope at icubed.com Fri Apr 11 08:33:37 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:33:37 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be far behind?" (Marcus Bales) In-Reply-To: <200304111910.h3BJA4ST000493@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304111910.h3BJA4ST000493@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: You're overplaying your hand. You've got another RadLib conspiracy theory, Mr. B. I know people in the oil business and they don't have your problem(s) with the way fate, the General Accounting Office and ACE has organized things in this matter. If I want to replace all the glass in the gov. office towers that's been broken in Iraq, I'm going to hire PPG, right? (Especially if they already have the contract for this sort of thing.) Unless, you think you can handle it, Marcus. However, if they need a subcontractor to fix a church's stained glass there that Saddam smithereened, I'm certain the appropriate exec at PPG would be happy to hand the ball off to you. Let's face it. You want another world, a world in which the logic of events and men is ordered to your satisfaction. Obviously, you aren't getting your way. So it is understandable that you would turn to poetry and art. Anyway, I looked into your accusations regarding the purported graft regarding Halliburton. They don't hold water, IMHO, but I'm not a federal contract lawyer (and neither are you, regardless of how you want to play one on the Internet). However, along the way I discovered a case you seem to have avoided or just haven't heard of due to being alarmed only about those pesky surrealistic time-manipulating Republicans, perhaps. Look up the story of Hudson Meat and Food Processing vs. Tyson Chicken under the Clinton Administration. There you will find the kind of thing that will arouse your Frank Norris/Ida Tarbell muckracking conscience. -- From sondheim at panix.com Fri Apr 11 22:15:15 2003 From: sondheim at panix.com (Alan Sondheim) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] the pure drop Message-ID: the pure drop i am the pure drop, useless and living off the muscle of those working to produce electronics, homes, and clothes, for me and my partner, for which we will never give sufficient thanks to the unknown women, men, and children suffering in order that i have the freedom to write, to film, to play useless music that inspires no one, leads no one towards better lives or healthier bodies, doesn't for an instant correct injustice or lead to equalization among nations or individuals - instead i reside, not really aloof, but alone and powerful, with equipment not of my making, and in relative warmth and comfort - possessing the luxurious ability to think in any direction i desire, to write whatever i want on whatever subject, and to continue this useless work at my leisure - i am this pure drop - such a very pure drop - === From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 11 22:24:34 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:24:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel References: <3E96F57F.8829.D689DE@localhost> Message-ID: <00f701c3009a$a90449e0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> > > ... I don't see much point in > > trying to give you a list of "best works," > > because I'm not that sure which are the best, or even which are good, which > > not-that-good.<< > > Well, that's the fundamental, central failure in your claim, then, > isn't it, Bob? It's hard to say, Marcus. There are so many defects in my claim that determining which one is the fundamental is very difficult, especially for me, since I haven't got any standards by which to judge claims. >If you haven't got any standards by which to judge > what's best, or even good, or even not-that-good, then there's > nothing, nothing whatever, to keep anyone from dismissing them all as > worthless junk out of hand. > Your mere assertion, absent any well-articulated standards, is > refuted, not just rebutted, but refuted, made null and void, by > anyone else's mere assertion that you're wrong, or that the works you > refer to are worthless junk. > > You have to be able to do better than "I can't tell" or else your > assertion that any of it is any good is just as worthless as the junk > you're promoting. I thought you'd already established all that long ago, Marcus. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 11 22:31:32 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:31:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> Message-ID: <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > No possibility that I have other things to do than get involved in a complex > > discussion. << > > Then why bother to say anything at all on a discussion list? Because I enjoy others' informal impressions and tentative ideas, I have been deluded into thinking some might enjoy, or get SOMEthing out of mine. > Why not > hold your opinions until you find a place where you can offer them > sure that no one could possibly disagree? Why not find a choir to > preach to? Gee, I never thought of that, Marcus. > Bob Grumman: > > I said EXACTLY what I meant. Dana Gioia is a hundred years behind in his > > appreciation of serious art. You thnk that can mean only one thing, but it > > can be taken several ways. Hence, I had to specify the way I intended it to > > be taken.< > > You didn't say "serious art" -- you said "superior art". Good grief. Make it "superior art." The context of the discussion makes it obvious that I made a trivial mistake when I said "serious." " If saying > "superior art" means EXACTLY "serious art", then I guess you said > "EXACTLY" what you meant -- but even you can't really hold that > "superior" means "serious". You didn't say exactly what you meant, > in short. You said something other than what you meant, as you > usually do, and when you're challenged on it you did as you usually > do: pretend that you're outraged to find anyone is actually reading > what you actually wrote. Just what are you getting out of this? > Your claim that you said exactly what you meant is simply wrong on > the face of it. > Bob Grumman: > > ... As usual, you are trying to rewrite me in > > hopes of getting me to trip badly in trying to do so. I will not do it > > here.<< > > You've already done it. Tripping up is what you do with boring > predictability -- no one has to "get you to". You do it on your own > without help. And when others point it out you get all huffy and > claim that you don't have time to participate in the discussion that > you yourself so often start by posts that are so often egregiously, > provocatively, wrong. > > Marcus Bales Right. --Bob G. From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Fri Apr 11 22:57:19 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:57:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Bob, I haven't been reading this Gioia thread - too tired from last joyless Gioia go-around - but I just wanted to say, keep putting yourself out there! I for one appreciate your impressions and ideas. The disconnect on this list is remarkable, weird, funny, I don't know what. Chris Lott or someone (and I don't mean to pick on you specifically Chris) can look at a poem I admire immensely (or, hell, beyond that, that I think is one of the great poems in English, say) and just say, unreadable, total crap. Conversely, I could look at some piece that Mike Snider thinks is sublimely wrought and believe it to be significantly more trifling than one of WC Williams blank prescription pads. Is it worth continuing to engage under such ethnocentric conditions? Yeah. There are a lot of undecideds listening in I imagine, and a lot of poetry in between. I really do believe that, in the American poetry context, this is a deep philosophical divide (albeit muddied by the particulars) which goes back at least as far as the feud between FH Bradley (Eliot's champ) and William James (Stein's & Williams's) at fin-de-siecle Harvard. Or perhaps, thinking of the Fugitives/Agrarians' _I'll Take My Stand_ and the shared membership of the New Criticism, to the Civil War. Thinking of Gioia in the White House, of the red and blue electoral map, of the "southern strategy" -- we're as divided as ever in word and deed. But perhaps not permanently so, and in any case, never absolutely. Your Carolinian New Englander of the New York School, -m. Quoting Bob Grumman : > > Bob Grumman: > > > No possibility that I have other things to do than get involved in a > complex > > > discussion. << > > > > Then why bother to say anything at all on a discussion list? > > Because I enjoy others' informal impressions and tentative ideas, I have > been deluded into thinking some might enjoy, or get SOMEthing out of mine. > > > Why not > > hold your opinions until you find a place where you can offer them > > sure that no one could possibly disagree? Why not find a choir to > > preach to? > > Gee, I never thought of that, Marcus. > > > Bob Grumman: > > > I said EXACTLY what I meant. Dana Gioia is a hundred years behind in > his > > > appreciation of serious art. You thnk that can mean only one thing, but > it > > > can be taken several ways. Hence, I had to specify the way I intended > it to > > > be taken.< > > > > You didn't say "serious art" -- you said "superior art". > > Good grief. Make it "superior art." The context of the discussion makes it > obvious that I made a trivial mistake when I said "serious." > > " If saying > > "superior art" means EXACTLY "serious art", then I guess you said > > "EXACTLY" what you meant -- but even you can't really hold that > > "superior" means "serious". You didn't say exactly what you meant, > > in short. You said something other than what you meant, as you > > usually do, and when you're challenged on it you did as you usually > > do: pretend that you're outraged to find anyone is actually reading > > what you actually wrote. > > Just what are you getting out of this? > > > Your claim that you said exactly what you meant is simply wrong on > > the face of it. > > > Bob Grumman: > > > ... As usual, you are trying to rewrite me in > > > hopes of getting me to trip badly in trying to do so. I will not do it > > > here.<< > > > > You've already done it. Tripping up is what you do with boring > > predictability -- no one has to "get you to". You do it on your own > > without help. And when others point it out you get all huffy and > > claim that you don't have time to participate in the discussion that > > you yourself so often start by posts that are so often egregiously, > > provocatively, wrong. > > > > Marcus Bales > > Right. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From sellwein at hotmail.com Fri Apr 11 22:58:26 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 22:58:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] the pure drop Message-ID: A lovely dream to be this pure drop. Is a resume required? - Deborah the pure drop i am the pure drop, useless and living off the muscle of those working to produce electronics, homes, and clothes, for me and my partner, for which we will never give sufficient thanks to the unknown women, men, and children suffering in order that i have the freedom to write, to film, to play useless music that inspires no one, leads no one towards better lives or healthier bodies, doesn't for an instant correct injustice or lead to equalization among nations or individuals - instead i reside, not really aloof, but alone and powerful, with equipment not of my making, and in relative warmth and comfort - possessing the luxurious ability to think in any direction i desire, to write whatever i want on whatever subject, and to continue this useless work at my leisure - i am this pure drop - such a very pure drop - _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 11 23:51:24 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 23:51:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] the pure drop Message-ID: <162.1ec5e8b0.2bc8e73c@cs.com> In a message dated 4/11/2003 9:16:14 PM Central Standard Time, sondheim at panix.com writes: > > the pure drop > > > i am the pure drop, useless and living > off the muscle of those working to produce > electronics, homes, and clothes, > for me and my partner, > for which we will never give sufficient thanks > to the unknown women, men, and children > suffering in order that i have the freedom > to write, to film, to play useless music > that inspires no one, leads no one > towards better lives or healthier bodies, > doesn't for an instant correct injustice > or lead to equalization among nations > or individuals - instead i reside, not really > aloof, but alone and powerful, > with equipment not of my making, > and in relative warmth and comfort - > possessing the luxurious ability > to think in any direction i desire, > to write whatever i want on whatever subject, > and to continue this useless work > at my leisure - i am this pure drop - > such a very pure drop - > > > === > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http I still like "Send in the Clowns" better. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Apr 11 23:59:19 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 20:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] the pure drop Message-ID: <20030412035919.A4BC63F0A@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 12 07:10:48 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 07:10:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <005501c300e4$2ceed920$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob, I haven't been reading this Gioia thread - too tired from last joyless > Gioia go-around - but I just wanted to say, keep putting yourself out there! Thanks, Carolinian NE >I for one appreciate your impressions and ideas. The disconnect on this list is > remarkable, weird, funny, I don't know what. Chris Lott or someone (and I > don't mean to pick on you specifically Chris) can look at a poem I admire > immensely (or, hell, beyond that, that I think is one of the great poems in > English, say) and just say, unreadable, total crap. Conversely, I could look > at some piece that Mike Snider thinks is sublimely wrought and believe it to be > significantly more trifling than one of WC Williams blank prescription pads. > Is it worth continuing to engage under such ethnocentric conditions? Not sure I'd go along with "ethnocentric." >Yeah. > There are a lot of undecideds listening in I imagine, and a lot of poetry in between. And sometimes an offhand bizarre dogmatic assertion can help people realize that there are many points of view regardless of how badly expressed and irresponsibly undefended the assertion is. >I really do believe that, in the American poetry context, this is a > deep philosophical divide (albeit muddied by the particulars) which goes back > at least as far as the feud between FH Bradley (Eliot's champ) and William > James (Stein's & Williams's) at fin-de-siecle Harvard. Or perhaps, thinking of > the Fugitives/Agrarians' _I'll Take My Stand_ and the shared membership of the > New Criticism, to the Civil War. Thinking of Gioia in the White House, of the > red and blue electoral map, of the "southern strategy" -- we're as divided as > ever in word and deed. But perhaps not permanently so, and in any case, never > absolutely. >Your Carolinian New Englander of the New York School, -m. Newy York School!? Well, screw you, then! Good grief. Where's Marcus? --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 12 07:52:41 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 07:52:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> It's at http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/grumman1.html Part of the Eratio website with a variety of poems and other material I mentioned yesterday. Read it and see if you can find more flaws in my reasoning and moral character than Marcus can! If you want to read it to get an idea of how I think as a critic, and work as a poet, it's pretty good, I think--although a little over-recondite in spots. The interviewer is Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino. The rest of his site is well worth visiting. --Bob G. From sellwein at hotmail.com Sat Apr 12 09:05:34 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 09:05:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carl Dennis - Kyoto Message-ID: Very nice, these passages: ..."Cedar and pine, oak, ash, and cherry. It isn't an accident, as I sit in the yard reading poems Under the hemlock, that I'm drawn to Basho. It's clear that his blood flows in my veins, Clear he's my father or else my twin Misplaced at birth in shorthanded village hospital. How else explain that a poem of his Is nearer to me than the proverbs of seven uncles? Witness the first haiku in the new translation I bought this morning at Niagara Books: "Even in Kyoto, hearing the cuckoo's cry, I long for Kyoto." --Carl Dennis I enjoyed this portion of Carl Dennis' poem very much. I spent a month, in Japan, on the Basho Journey. Kyoto is quite beautiful. This is one of poems I composed from the journey: Shifts Of Clouds When I return to Kyoto I'll lose myself, in the mist of Hiei stand there alone with the world at my feet, sans sympathetic understanding nothing between me and naked pines I'll return from time to time and think of a garden girl among brown eyed susans where she renames flowers and sky I'll travel again to the temple where Buddha speaks a new language that translates the universe in sacred shifts of clouds I'll lose myself in Hiei become invisible to all earthy things - bow, in the light and shake the calloused hands of monks and nuns who call fish by their names I'll lose myself in Kyoto but what else did I ever have to lose? deborah russell, 2003 ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 12 10:01:16 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:01:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Christoph Meckel, "Postship" Message-ID: Postship To land with the postship came rats and old dolphins, schnapps and oil and golden tobacco, newspapers and a few love letters. For me came a trunk, battered, full of hats and shoes, although I am not poor and what is hidden has no need to worry about me. Speechless I signed the round robin of the seas, swapped the shoes cheerfully, waved gift hats to the Unknown! --Christoph Meckel, 1959 tr. Christopher Middleton fr. *Modern German Poetry* eds. Michael Hamburger and Christopher Middleton [New York: Grove Press, 1962) Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From daisyf1 at juno.com Sat Apr 12 10:21:47 2003 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:21:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Alma-Tadema Message-ID: <20030412.102148.-357471.14.daisyf1@juno.com> Oh, of course. Though I for one could wish for more bimbo males in art to accompany all the bimbo females. Oh, right, that would be Velasquez' paintings of the Hapsburgs...Never mind... Daisy On Friday, April 11, 2003 8:19 AM, Daisy Fried spake thusly: >> he sure does like lassitudinous > >lightly-clothed women with vacant jaded stares, doesn't he? >Doesn't everyone? c -- Chris Lott From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 12 10:23:44 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 10:23:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Alma-Tadema In-Reply-To: <20030412.102148.-357471.14.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: And we won't even mention the Greeks. Hal ?Quien es m?s macho--Saddam Hussein o George W. Bush? Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Oh, of course. Though I for one could wish for more bimbo males in art to { accompany all the bimbo females. Oh, right, that would be Velasquez' { paintings of the Hapsburgs...Never mind... { Daisy { { On Friday, April 11, 2003 8:19 AM, Daisy Fried spake { thusly: { { >> he sure does like lassitudinous { > >lightly-clothed women with vacant jaded stares, doesn't he? { { >Doesn't everyone? { { c { -- { Chris Lott { { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 12 12:37:58 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 11:37:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Dennis Message-ID: Two more poems from Carl Dennis's *Practical Gods*-- JESUS FREAKS The approval they get from above is all they need, So why should they care if they offend me Here in the parking lot of the Super Duper, my arms full, By stuffing a pamphlet or two in my pocket? No point in shouting at them to keep back When they're looking for disapproval. No reason For them to obey the rules of one of the ignorant Who supposes the perpetual dusk he lives in Sunny noon. Their business is with my soul, However buried, with my unvoiced wish for the truth Too soft for me to catch over the street noise. Should I rest my packages on my car a minute And try to listen if I'm sure they really believe They're vexing me in my own best interest? To them I'm the loser they used to be When they sweated daily to please themselves, Deaf to their real wishes. Why make it easy for me To load the trunk of my car with grocery bags When they offer a joy that none of my purchases, However free of impurities, can provide? Their calls to attention shouldn't sound any more threatening Than the peal of a church bell. And if I call On the car phone to lodge a complaint Jail will seem to them the perfect place to bear witness In this dark dominion where Herod rules. In jail, but also guests at a banquet, while I, They're certain, stubbornly stand outside Shivering in the snow, too proud To enter a hall not of my own devising And warm myself at a fire I didn't light And enjoy a meal strangers have taken pains with. Yes, the table's crowded, but there's room for me. --Carl Dennis ----------------------------------------------------- Glory A moment of glory every once in a while Isn't too much to expect, though it isn't likely To reach me today. Only an hour till bedtime As I sit in the living room watching a family movie. Here is the comfort of familiar shadows But not the glory of leading those shadows Out of the flickering dark into the living present. A distinction I need to keep clear If I'm to claim the modest glory of honesty. The sight of my cousins, uncles, and aunts Huddled around the cake with my parents On my seventh birthday shows how cherished I was, A boy likely to grow to manhood At ease with himself, confident of his gifts, Daring the loneliness required by causes Gloriously unlikely to triumph, which by now I should be able to name more readily. At least with birthdays like this to fall back on, I can be strong enough to confront my failings, Beginning with the pleasure I took in being coddled More than my brothers were by those who mattered. And if that memory leaves me feeling guilty, It shows I'm not indifferent to justice. And isn't regard for justice a noble virtue? If that's not enough for a day's quota of glory, I can show the film in reverse and watch an uncle Bring an empty fork to his mouth and remove it Mounded with cake; I can watch the forkfuls Arrange themselves on the plates as slices Pointed into the past to defy time's arrow. And when the cake's restored, the birthday child Blows the candles to flame with his hot breath. And here's mother taking a match to unlight them. And here's father smiling as he backs the cake to the kitchen To box it and send it off to countries less fortunate Whose inhabitants haven't learned to create from nothing. --Carl Dennis. *Practical Gods*, 2001. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 12 12:50:29 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:50:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Firefight at Palestine Hotel" Message-ID: Firefight at Palestine Hotel 31 minutes ago ? No quagmire, but still some questions. The censorship begins inside the heavily armored tank if it is placed correctly. To err on the side of caution whenever practical, classrooms were filled with hundreds of crates of grenade launchers, hunkered down in their homes by a wife and two children hoping that peace would prevail. Critical questions a hundred flights up? Brides stripped bare by their bachelors? Coalition forces sound sirens again in the Iraqi capital Baghdad. Knew there were journalists there and ordered a return volley anyway. Media march to war, and my very bones sweated. Classrooms were filled with a lull following an evening bombardment. Ourselves with ourselves. Told reporters that after a lull following an evening bombardment. Rifles and rocket- propelled grenades reduced to a line in a sonnet, if it is placed correctly. Journalists warned of the danger that combat may lie ahead, can injure or kill. The commander knew that journalists were there, inside the heavily armed tank, amid hundreds of cartons of leaflets, trying by any means to seize the offensive, win the peace. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 12 13:18:48 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 13:18:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be far behind?" (Marcus Bales) In-Reply-To: References: <200304111910.h3BJA4ST000493@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3E981238.11401.C2EA7@localhost> > You're overplaying your hand. You've got another RadLib conspiracy > theory,...<< No, I don't. I don't assert that any conspiracy is needed in order for there to be either the appearance of impropriety or impropriety itself. > ... However, if they need a subcontractor to fix a church's > stained glass there that Saddam smithereened, I'm certain the > appropriate exec at PPG would be happy to hand the ball off to you.< Probably not, because I'm under the radar of that kind of company and that kind of job -- but that aside, the issue is whether there is impropriety or the appearance of impropriety in handing work off without bids to companies such as Halliburten whose former ceo is the current vice president. > I discovered a case you seem to have avoided or just haven't heard of > due to being alarmed only about those pesky surrealistic > time-manipulating Republicans, perhaps. Look up the story of Hudson > Meat and Food Processing vs. Tyson Chicken under the Clinton > Administration.<< Once again, I didn't, and don't, assert that it is only Republicans who play fast and loose with the rules. You seem to be saying here that it's ok if the Republicans do it since you think you have an example of the Democrats doing it -- and that's an unsatisfactory approach to how to treat either politics or law. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From j-mccann1 at tamu.edu Sat Apr 12 13:25:16 2003 From: j-mccann1 at tamu.edu (Janet McCann) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 12:25:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Carl Dennis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20030412122516.009491b0@neo.tamu.edu> I have always like Carl Dennis' quiet, thoughtful poetry. He has quite a few fine poems about piano playing and piano music--there was one I taught years ago, and if I can find it in my chaotic office, I will post it. I am always happy to find him in something I am browsing through. Janet From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 12 13:34:06 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 13:34:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview In-Reply-To: <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9815CE.26334.1A334E@localhost> Bob Grumman: > Read it and see if you can find more flaws in my > reasoning and moral character than Marcus can!< Another error on your part, Bob -- I assert nothing about your moral character. I'm sure you're kind to animals and your significant other, and pay your taxes on time, and all that. I disagree with many of your views about art -- insofar as I can get you to state them correctly, that is, so that you yourself actually agree with what you yourself say as you conflate "superior" and "serious" and then pretend that it's a trivial mistake. That your points seem badly argued and ill-thought-out says nothing about your moral character. That you take criticism of your views to be criticism of your moral character seems to indicate that you may not realize that the key to civil discussion is that the participants must be willing and able to separate their selves from their views so that the views can be criticized without the participants feeling as if criticims of their views is criticism of their selves. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 12 13:34:06 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 13:34:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel In-Reply-To: <00f701c3009a$a90449e0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9815CE.17520.1A324E@localhost> On 11 Apr 2003 at 22:24, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > ... I don't see much point in > > > trying to give you a list of "best works," > > > because I'm not that sure which are the best, or even which are good, which > > > not-that-good.<< Marcus Bales: > > Well, that's the fundamental, central failure in your claim,then, > > isn't it, Bob? Bob Grumman: > It's hard to say, Marcus. There are so many defects in my claim that > determining which one is the fundamental is very difficult, especially for > me, since I haven't got any standards by which to judge claims.<< You'll just have to trust me, then, Bob -- that's the fundamental one. I'm glad to see you've finally decided to acknowledge the faults in your presentations honestly and openly. It's cathartic, isn't it? Makes you feel good, I'm sure. One step at a time, Bob. Easy does it. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 12 14:03:11 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:03:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E9815CE.26334.1A334E@localhost> Message-ID: <00c801c3011d$c9893e40$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > Read it and see if you can find more flaws in my > > reasoning and moral character than Marcus can!< > > Another error on your part, Bob -- I assert nothing about your moral > character. You have implied all kinds of bad things about my moral character, Marcus. For instance, that when I say that I haven't time to go deeply into a subject, I'm not telling the truth but only trying to keep from admitting I'm wrong and/or to make people think I may have an argument when I don't. I'm sure you're kind to animals and your significant > other, and pay your taxes on time, and all that. I disagree with many > of your views about art -- insofar as I can get you to state them > correctly, that is, so that you yourself actually agree with what you > yourself say as you conflate "superior" and "serious" and then > pretend that it's a trivial mistake. See. You assert I lied. snip. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 12 14:07:20 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:07:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel References: <3E9815CE.17520.1A324E@localhost> Message-ID: <00ce01c3011e$5eead200$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> > On 11 Apr 2003 at 22:24, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > ... I don't see much point in > > > > trying to give you a list of "best works," > > > > because I'm not that sure which are the best, or even which are good, which > > > > not-that-good.<< > > Marcus Bales: > > > Well, that's the fundamental, central failure in your claim,then, > > > isn't it, Bob? > > Bob Grumman: > > It's hard to say, Marcus. There are so many defects in my claim that > > determining which one is the fundamental ONE is very difficult, especially for > > me, since I haven't got any standards by which to judge claims.<< > > You'll just have to trust me, then, Bob -- that's the fundamental > one. I'm glad to see you've finally decided to acknowledge the faults > in your presentations honestly and openly. It's cathartic, isn't it? > Makes you feel good, I'm sure. One step at a time, Bob. Easy does > it. > > Marcus Bales I've acknowledged many times how accurate your assessments of my intelligence (which, of course, has nothing to do with me) and moral character. Indeed, I keep asking you why you keep wasting your time so vainly trying to cure someone as defective as I. --Bob G. From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sun Apr 13 00:24:52 2003 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 21:24:52 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] QUESTION References: <3E9815CE.17520.1A324E@localhost> Message-ID: <3E98E694.4B4A19F8@earthlink.net> There was some discussion on this list awhile back about the famous youngster (circa 9 years old) who is crippled, disabled and who has published a book of poetry on a major publisher..... I forget his name, could anybody tell me what it is.... I would very much appreciate it. Thank you, Chris Stroffolino From Thom424 at aol.com Sun Apr 13 06:09:13 2003 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 06:09:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] QUESTION...Answer Message-ID: <65.ead0a9d.2bca9149@aol.com> Chris-- Mattie J.T. Stepanek. Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Apr 13 13:03:44 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 13:03:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Five sentences by Pres. G.W.B. Message-ID: Five sentences by Pres. G.W.B., as quoted by Lewis H. Lapham in "Shock and Awe" in *Harper's Magazine* May 2003. 1. "The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity." 2. "We do not claim to know all the ways of Providence, yet we can trust in them, placing our confidence in the loving God behind all of life, and all of history." 3. "Events aren't moved by blind change and chance . . . [but] by the hand of a just and faithful God." 4. "The crew of the shuttle *Columbia* did not return safely to earth. Yet we can pray that all are safely home." 5. "We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of our great nation." Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Sun Apr 13 13:07:59 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 03 13:07:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] on the lighter side... Message-ID: <200304131714.h3DHEnlT172928@northrelay04.pok.ibm.com> I heard an interesting neologism this AM on NPR - regarding reporters in Iraq who are not "imbedded" (embedded?) - they are ..... anyone (who didn't hear it) care to guess? Hint: one word comprising Richard From elemenope at icubed.com Sun Apr 13 01:14:49 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 13:14:49 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be far behind?" (Marcus Bales) (Marcus Bales). In-Reply-To: <200304131601.h3DG1DST028462@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304131601.h3DG1DST028462@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: You haven't made a case, you've made an accusation which is based on a conspiracy theory - [IMHO} - it sure isn't based on the evidence available through the GAO or the Army Corps of Engineers or the Senate or House Appropriations Committees. No, it's based on a muckracking assertion against the Vice President by you (esteemed internet poet) of unburped PhatBoy graft. I am not going to defend against such an accusation until you make a real case worthy of submission to the Solictor General of the United States of America. To make such a case, Mr. Bales, will require a legal brief. A brief requires evidence. It seems - seems - you don't have evidence, you have a conspiracy theory. Bring your evidence of GRAFT to this forum and I will personally forward it to Senator Santorum, Vice President Cheney and the appropriate officer > >>Charles E. Dominy >>Vice President >>Government Affairs, Halliburton Corporation >>1150 18th St NW Ste 200 >>Washington, DC 20036 >USA of Halliburton Corporation. >[About Halliburton > >Founded in 1919, Halliburton is one of the world's largest providers >of products and services to the oil and gas industries. The Company >adds value through the entire lifecycle of oil and gas reservoirs >and provides and integrates products and services, starting with >exploration and development, moving through production, operations, >maintenance, conversion and refining, to infrastructure and >abandonment. Halliburton employs 85,000 people in more than 100 >countries working in two major operating groups: >Halliburton's Energy Services Group offers a broad array of products >and services to upstream oil and gas customers worldwide, ranging >from the manufacturing of drill bits and other downhole and >completion tools and pressure pumping services to subsea engineering. >KBR, the engineering and construction group, serves the energy >industry by designing and building liquefied natural gas plants, >refining and processing plants, production facilities and pipelines, >both onshore and offshore. KBR's non-energy business meets the >engineering and construction needs of governments and civil >infrastructure customers. KBR also provides operations and >maintenance for a wide variety of facilities. ] I will use every resource at my disposal as a member of the RNC to get to the bottom of this criminal GRAFT and see to it that the malefactors are pursued and apprehended! (Don't trust me? Get Detective Blix on the case.) I am certain that competitors here in the King City of the Appalachians will be very interested in these cheats! If your accusation holds water, Mr. Bales, we don't live in a state of bureaucratic and judiciary proceedures overseen by a priesthood of tedious attorneys and accountants, we live in a Saddam-like Tammany Hall Kafka-esque nightmare of backroom cigar cum reefer payoffs where only Pachyderm poets who write paenes to George "UnGravitas" Bush, General Tommy "Quaqmire" Franks and Donald "Unknown Unknowns" Rumsfeld have a chance of winning the CIA-Front Naropa K-rakGinzy Trungpa Oechester Prix for Patriotic Nirbannic Yankee GG Poetry. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From luap at mallasch.com Sun Apr 13 13:30:58 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 12:30:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Rumsfeld ... the poet? In-Reply-To: <00ce01c3011e$5eead200$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: Slightly amusing: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/4/11/23951/8497 -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ From JforJames at aol.com Sun Apr 13 13:46:03 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 13:46:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 20th Century Masters Tribute to Gertrude Stein Message-ID: From: pen at pen.org Sent: 4/11/2003 4:07 PM Subject: Gertrude Stein Tribute Don't miss PEN American Center's 20th Century Masters Tribute to Gertrude Stein Wednesday, April 23rd at 7:30 p.m. at the Donnell Library, 20 West 53rd Street Featuring: JOHN ASHBERY ANNE CARSON WILLIAM GASS MARGO JEFFERSON SUSAN SONTAG curated by: Wayne Koestenbaum and Catharine R. Stimpson with assistance from Savitri Durkee Tickets: $10 for PEN members and students, $15 for nonmembers Click Here to Buy Tickets Online (secure credit card order form) To reserve, or for more info: (212) 334-1660, ext. 107 From JforJames at aol.com Sun Apr 13 14:15:07 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 14:15:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] today's (poor excuse for a) poem, Mary Kinzie Message-ID: <1d7.701f1dc.2bcb032b@aol.com> Knopf has been sending out these message/adverts in conjunction with National Poetry Month. Maybe I'm just in surly mood...but this seems like another questionable choice for a sample poem. I can't disagree entirely with "microscopic simplicity"...yet I have to wonder if that's compliment in this case. This one makes me yearn for some scenery-chewing confessionalism. A better term might be emotional minutia: Subj: Mary Kinzie Date: 4/11/03 1:58:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com (The Knopf Poetry Center) To: JforJames at aol.com In today's poem, Mary Kinzie captures a state of mind with microscopic simplicity. ************************************** Close Path What have I trained for what have the years of whatever I did during them made me ready to take on if the tears are to stream coldly like long streaks of rain down the light brick of the storehouse and I become afraid to look lest the pain travel with my breathing its path near enough to disappear down ************************************** From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Apr 13 16:30:57 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 15:30:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Query Message-ID: Reading Paul Lawrence Dunbar's poem "A Negro Love Song," which has the refrain, "Jump back, honey, jump back," it occurs to me that I don't really know what the refrain means. The gist of the poem is clear enough, but this particular idiom I don't know. Does anyone know, or can anyone point me to a place where I can find a definition? Paul Lawrence Dunbar A Negro Love Song Seen my lady home las' night, Jump back, honey, jump back. Hel' huh han' an' sque'z it tight, Jump back, honey, jump back. Hyeahd huh sigh a little sigh, Seen a light gleam f'om huh eye, An' a smile go flittin' by ?? Jump back, honey, jump back. Hyeahd de win' blow thoo de pine, Jump back, honey, jump back. Mockin'-bird was singin' fine, Jump back, honey, jump back. An' my hea't was beatin' so, When I reached my lady's do', Dat I could n't ba' to go ?? Jump back, honey, jump back. Put my ahm aroun' huh wais', Jump back, honey, jump back. Raised huh lips an' took a tase, Jump back, honey, jump back. Love me, honey, love me true? Love me well ez I love you? An' she answe'd, " 'Cose I do" ?? Jump back, honey, jump back. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 13 16:40:07 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 13:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Five sentences by Pres. G.W.B. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030413204007.84147.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Point? Jeff Newberry Halvard Johnson wrote:Five sentences by Pres. G.W.B., as quoted by Lewis H. Lapham in "Shock and Awe" in *Harper's Magazine* May 2003. 1. "The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity." 2. "We do not claim to know all the ways of Providence, yet we can trust in them, placing our confidence in the loving God behind all of life, and all of history." 3. "Events aren't moved by blind change and chance . . . [but] by the hand of a just and faithful God." 4. "The crew of the shuttle *Columbia* did not return safely to earth. Yet we can pray that all are safely home." 5. "We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of our great nation." Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Sun Apr 13 16:39:51 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 03 16:39:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "jump back honey jump back" Message-ID: <200304132042.h3DKgxlT049074@northrelay04.pok.ibm.com> ".. is what waiters called out to one another before coming out the swinging door of the kitchen into the restaurant." according to http://hallkidsillustrators.com/P/434.shtml telleth Google. Richard From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Apr 13 16:53:47 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 16:53:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Query References: Message-ID: <001b01c301fe$c771c9b0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> You find it in blues -- Me and wife was goin' to town, jump back, honey, jump back Ridin' a billy goat and leadin' a hound, jump back, honey, jump back it's a common refrain, and I would guess it has to do with a dance step, like "jump in the line" ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 4:30 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Query Reading Paul Lawrence Dunbar's poem "A Negro Love Song," which has the refrain, "Jump back, honey, jump back," it occurs to me that I don't really know what the refrain means. The gist of the poem is clear enough, but this particular idiom I don't know. Does anyone know, or can anyone point me to a place where I can find a definition? Paul Lawrence Dunbar A Negro Love Song Seen my lady home las' night, Jump back, honey, jump back. Hel' huh han' an' sque'z it tight, Jump back, honey, jump back. Hyeahd huh sigh a little sigh, Seen a light gleam f'om huh eye, An' a smile go flittin' by ?? Jump back, honey, jump back. Hyeahd de win' blow thoo de pine, Jump back, honey, jump back. Mockin'-bird was singin' fine, Jump back, honey, jump back. An' my hea't was beatin' so, When I reached my lady's do', Dat I could n't ba' to go ?? Jump back, honey, jump back. Put my ahm aroun' huh wais', Jump back, honey, jump back. Raised huh lips an' took a tase, Jump back, honey, jump back. Love me, honey, love me true? Love me well ez I love you? An' she answe'd, " 'Cose I do" ?? Jump back, honey, jump back. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Apr 13 16:54:27 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 16:54:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Five sentences by Pres. G.W.B. References: <20030413204007.84147.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002501c301fe$df309590$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Isn't serving the tri-state area enough of a point? ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Five sentences by Pres. G.W.B. Point? Jeff Newberry Halvard Johnson wrote: Five sentences by Pres. G.W.B., as quoted by Lewis H. Lapham in "Shock and Awe" in *Harper's Magazine* May 2003. 1. "The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity." 2. "We do not claim to know all the ways of Providence, yet we can trust in them, placing our confidence in the loving God behind all of life, and all of history." 3. "Events aren't moved by blind change and chance . . . [but] by the hand of a just and faithful God." 4. "The crew of the shuttle *Columbia* did not return safely to earth. Yet we can pray that all are safely home." 5. "We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of our great nation." Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~ha! lvard _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Apr 13 17:35:18 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:35:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Five sentences by Pres. G.W.B. In-Reply-To: <20030413204007.84147.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Could be. Hal Braised pork bun (Taiwanese style) Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard Point? Jeff Newberry Halvard Johnson wrote: Five sentences by Pres. G.W.B., as quoted by Lewis H. Lapham in "Shock and Awe" in *Harper's Magazine* May 2003. 1. "The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity." 2. "We do not claim to know all the ways of Providence, yet we can trust in them, placing our confidence in the loving God behind all of life, and all of history." 3. "Events aren't moved by blind change and chance . . . [but] by the hand of a just and faithful God." 4. "The crew of the shuttle *Columbia* did not return safely to earth. Yet we can pray that all are safely home." 5. "We will export death and violence to the four corners of the earth in defense of our great nation." Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~ha! lvard _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 14 01:03:08 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:03:08 -0800 Subject: Well, I Like it [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA] References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <00bf01c30243$2837dd40$6601a8c0@TRS80> On Friday, April 11, 2003 6:57 PM, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu spake thusly: > The disconnect on this list is remarkable, weird, funny, I don't know > what. Chris Lott or someone (and I don't mean to pick on you > specifically Chris) can look at a poem I admire immensely (or, hell, > beyond that, that I think is one of the great poems in English, say) > and just say, unreadable, total crap. This lies right at the heart of a lot of discussion on this list and many others. And to pick on Marcus after some other threads on another list a long time ago, I think the fact that it often seems to boil down to this kind of inexplicable divide drives him crazy. I recognize that I am somewhat of a traditionalist in the sense that the things I look for in a poem: total coherence, a "point" in the narrative or story or image, I tend to like stanzas and poems laid out in lines rather than concrete "poetic images" and such. I won't say that I have a bias against new things, but the contention that poetry of the last decade, particularly the controversial experimental strands, are inherently better than "older" poems of the last fifty years before that, strikes me as absurd. Not because I want to belittle those who are attached to such things, but because, in any way that I can conceive, *most of these items aren't poems at all*! I have a very similar discussion with my wife all the time. She is into house, ambient, electronica music. Now, she will often play me a piece she really likes. I try hard to like it because I respect her opinion, but most of the time, while I can find things to admire, I just keep thinking "this isn't a song." At what point when one has discarded any kind of form, melody, a recognizable scale or key... at what point do complex rhythms with sampled sounds stop being songs and because something else, even if they are marketed on CDs in the music store? > Is it worth continuing to engage under such > ethnocentric conditions? Yeah. There are a lot of undecideds > listening in I imagine, and a lot of poetry in between. I really do > believe that, in the American poetry context, this is a deep > philosophical divide [...] And I say keep it going too. Although I tire of such discussions often (including the ones I participate in... I bore everyone and myself equally), I come back often as well. My challenge to Bob is not so much about his system of classification, but because I am always looking for new things that I will enjoy. I'm unlikely to pore through all of this kind of work in search of nuggets myself, so I leave it to the devotees to perform some filtering. The benefit of my wife's attachment to her music is the discovery of a number of wonderful artists that I would never have otherwise discovered... though I will continue to maintain that the pieces they present aren't songs anymore than "Urban High Rise Poem" http://oregonstate.edu/~smithc/poems/urban.html is really a poem, despite its title. It's a misclassification leading to a comparison that doesn't do the pieces any good. Why shoehorn them in where they don't belong anyway? c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 14 01:11:45 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 21:11:45 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> In all honesty, it seems like a waste of time to try to redefine the word "poem" to encompass apparently everything that has "poetic" value... why co-opt a genre that doesn't encompass what one wishes to do? But in the context of poetry, I have to admit that some of the examples of Mathemaku in the interview strike me as little ideas, good lines which one might find in a poet's notebook, awaiting the transformation into poems. Others strike me as a kind of "noodling." It's as if the work of transformation to take the idea(s) in the words and the symbols has never really been undertaken to create what I appreciate in a poem. Or I just don't get them. Similarly, I only like a relatively small proportion of abstract painting that I am presented with, and my attachments to the ones I like remain pretty hard to explain. c -- Chris Lott From adead_poet at hotmail.com Mon Apr 14 04:05:48 2003 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 03:05:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for a poem Message-ID: i could use a little help in locating a poem i read a few years ago. the problem is that i can't remember what it is. i think it was a poem by a.r. ammons (in fact, i'm almost positive it was by ammons). and i think the title was 'natural selection' or maybe the poem just dealt with natural selection and evolution. i tried google, and couldn't find it. i do know the poem is written in two line stanzas, but i don't think they rhyme. actually, for some reason i keep thinking that the final words or phrases in the each line (and they are short lines) are opposite in meaning. and i think the title is also the last line of the poem. is this ringing a bell, or am i just not remembering the poem well? if you know what it is, please tell me, or better yet, post it if you have it. thanks jason _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 06:31:07 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 06:31:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <00ac01c30270$f7e860a0$40e6fea9@j1c1k6> > In all honesty, it seems like a waste of time to try to redefine the word > "poem" to encompass apparently everything that has "poetic" value... why > co-opt a genre that doesn't encompass what one wishes to do? Not sure what you mean here, Chris. My definition of poetry does not encompass everything that has poetic value, just everything literary that has what I call flow-breaks. Most visual poets disagree with my definition of poetry because it doesn't fit what they do. > But in the context of poetry, I have to admit that some of the examples of > Mathemaku in the interview strike me as little ideas, good lines which one > might find in a poet's notebook, awaiting the transformation into poems. Thanks for taking the time to look at them. I spent as much time making most of them as any traditional poet spends on his poems. Whatever their defects, they are not notes. It IS difficult to appreciate them, though. One has to be capable of the thrill, or of remembering the thrill one had, of discovering that one could subject seven and six to a process that made forty-two--and one has to be able to experience this thrill at the same time one experiences the pleasure of the "haiku moment" that is at the center of most of my mathemaku. That has to do with being able to feel the connection between two or more images. A person for whom haiku do nothing will not likely get much from my poems. I think one also has to have a visceral understanding of both rigorous analyticality and free-ranging intuition and of the difference between them since they form, I hope, the dark and light of my poems. --Bob G. > Others strike me as a kind of "noodling." It's as if the work of > transformation to take the idea(s) in the words and the symbols has never > really been undertaken to create what I appreciate in a poem. > > Or I just don't get them. Similarly, I only like a relatively small > proportion of abstract painting that I am presented with, and my attachments > to the ones I like remain pretty hard to explain. > > c > -- > Chris Lott > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon Apr 14 07:03:29 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 07:03:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's blog Message-ID: <000001c30275$7fe35560$5870ed41@Dell> Joanne Kyger's Ten Shines Mytili Jagannathan, Jenn McCreary, Frank Sherlock, Andrew Zitcer, Joshua Schuster, your truly & Need New Body: Live @ the Writers House Edgar Bowers' "A Fragment: The Cause" - Is Knopf's poetry list deliberately embarrassing? Chris Stroffolino on depoliticization & the differences between 1974, 1989 & now James Wagner's False Sun Recordings: a practitioner of compactness Creeley's Yesterdays Robert Duncan & 3 war poems of WW2 Defense Planning Guidance: Why Iraq matters Expectations: George Stanley's "The Wasteland (A Translation)" In memory of Ric Caddell Is critical coherence a nefarious plot? You are what you blog http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ 27,000 visitors served since September 2002 From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 14 08:36:22 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:36:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview In-Reply-To: <00c801c3011d$c9893e40$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9A7306.8167.23A65C@localhost> Bob Grumman: > You have implied all kinds of bad things about my moral character, Marcus. > For instance, that when I say that I haven't time to go deeply into a > subject, I'm not telling the truth but only trying to keep from admitting > I'm wrong and/or to make people think I may have an argument when I don't.<< Well, Bob, that's no slur on your moral character; that's a slur on your argument and your rhetorical techniques. It's a common rhetorical trick, but no better a trick for being common, to issue a provocative post and then retreat into claims that time does not allow for proof of the claim. But for all that it's a bad trick, that you employ a bad trick is no slur on your character -- though it is a slur on the positions you've taken because positions that can only be (and alas for your psitions that I've seen so far, bad and fallacious arguments are all you've deployed) Marcus Bales: > > I'm sure you're kind to animals and your significant > > other, and pay your taxes on time, and all that. I disagree with many > > of your views about art -- insofar as I can get you to state them > > correctly, that is, so that you yourself actually agree with what you > > yourself say as you conflate "superior" and "serious" and then > > pretend that it's a trivial mistake. Bob Grumman: > See. You assert I lied.<< I assert that you are using rhetorical trickery instead of engaging in a discussion. Your tactics are disingenuous -- but that's not an accusation that you're a liar. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 14 08:42:46 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:42:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel In-Reply-To: <00ce01c3011e$5eead200$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9A7486.26831.29813F@localhost> > > On 11 Apr 2003 at 22:24, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > ... I don't see much point in > > > > > trying to give you a list of "best works," > > > > > because I'm not that sure which are the best, or even which are > good, which > > > > > not-that-good.<< > > > > Marcus Bales: > > > > Well, that's the fundamental, central failure in your claim,then, > > > > isn't it, Bob? > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > It's hard to say, Marcus. There are so many defects in my claim that > > > determining which one is the fundamental ONE is very difficult, > especially for > > > me, since I haven't got any standards by which to judge claims.<< Marcus Bales: > > You'll just have to trust me, then, Bob -- that's the fundamental > > one. I'm glad to see you've finally decided to acknowledge the faults > > in your presentations honestly and openly. It's cathartic, isn't it? > > Makes you feel good, I'm sure. One step at a time, Bob. Easy does > > it. Bob Grumman: > I've acknowledged many times how accurate your assessments of my > intelligence (which, of course, has nothing to do with me) and moral > character....<< You have the courage to be wrong, often spectacularly wrong, Bob -- and everyone who knows you admires that, I'm sure. You're often wrong but never in doubt. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 14 08:55:04 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:55:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be far behind?" (Marcus Bales) (Marcus Bales). In-Reply-To: References: <200304131601.h3DG1DST028462@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3E9A7768.27826.34C679@localhost> > You haven't made a case, you've made an accusation which is based on > a conspiracy theory ... I am not going to defend > against such an accusation until you make a real case worthy of > submission to the Solictor General of the United States of America....<< This is so absurd -- you tolerate, encourage, and forward emails about the allegations of the Democrats, and particularly the Clinton Administration, where one and only one person was convicted of a felony, though in the Regan Administration dozens were, but you demand a legal brief before you'll allow that something looks bad in a Republican administration? That's pretty disingenuous. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 14 10:27:40 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:27:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <019f01c2ffd0$3308f260$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9A8D1C.11275.89911F@localhost> Bob Grumman: > Final argument: if the cultural works of the past are equal to the > cultural works made in the present, why are so few of the latter a > directly living part of anyone's life?<< Who says they're not? Bob Grumman: > I say that the makers of > the artworks of the past were equal to the makers of later artworks > just as Newton was equal to Einstein but that their works were > superceded, just as Newton's were....<< What about Ptolemy and Gallileo and Copernicus? What you're claiming here, Bob, is that there is a connection between art and the real world that is as measurable as the one between science and the real world. It's preposterous on the face of it. Art is more analogous to religion or politics than to science -- and all your attempts to taxonomize art can be no more successful than attempts to taxonomize religion. It's an errand that will always be well behind schism and synod, faction and party, in their changes and deaths and recombinations and resurrections and, because the taxonomy is well-behind, it will always be pretty useless as a tool with which to examine the reality at hand at any given present. It's not really a taxonomy, in short, for all that you call it one, any more than one can say a dog has five legs if you call a tail a leg. Calling it one doesn't make it so. You're proposing an anthology, at best -- but pseudo-scientism is not help, it's a hindrance, in fields where subjective judgments make up the field. Bob Grumman: > ... someone who thought Manet's works > equal to or better than anything after him would be about as high > on the painting-appreciation scale, in my view, as I am on the > music-appreciation scale ...<< Here, again, is another example of your claim that there is a necessary and measurable progression in art. This is pseudo- scientism, trying to use the terms and the forms of science as if they applied where they do not apply. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 14 10:27:40 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:27:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <00be01c30067$18e68d60$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9A8D1C.29725.89902D@localhost> Bob Grumman: > ... Why should > the arts be different from > technology? If cars can be superior to horse-drawn chariots, why can't > modern poems be better than ancient poems?<< This is a category-error, Bob. Poems and the arts on the one hand are a different kind of endeavor, not merely different in degree, from cars and technology on the other. You might as well contend that modern prayer is better than ancient prayer because we have better praying techniques and better gods. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 14 11:28:27 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 07:28:27 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00ac01c30270$f7e860a0$40e6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <01c501c3029a$82e8a650$6601a8c0@TRS80> On Monday, April 14, 2003 2:31 AM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > Thanks for taking the time to look at them. I spent as much time > making most of them as any traditional poet spends on his poems. > Whatever their defects, they are not notes. It IS difficult to > appreciate them, though. One has to be capable of the thrill, or of > remembering the thrill one had, of discovering that one could subject > seven and six to a process that made forty-two--and one has to be > able to experience this thrill at the same time one experiences the > pleasure of the "haiku moment" that is at the center of most of my > mathemaku. That has to do with being able to feel the connection > between two or more images. A person for whom haiku do nothing will > not likely get much from my poems. I think one also has to have a > visceral understanding of both rigorous analyticality and > free-ranging intuition and of the difference between them since they > form, I hope, the dark and light of my poems. I don't want to get lost in a discussion about the definition of poetry. It just seems to me that a lot of this visual work that doesn't read like poetry or look like a painting inhabits some world in between that needs to be approached differently. I don't see what makes it poetry, but it isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things. And I certainly don't mean to imply that you don't spend plenty of time on them. What I mean is that they strike me as unfinished in ways that I expect from poems. But when I went back to look again this morning I pictured them (don't take this as a slight) as large posters or broadsides and that context seemed to fit better. Ironically enough, I am a big fan of haiku, though mostly traditional haiku. I find a lot of the more modern attempts, particularly Beat and American Haiku to be lacking that essential spark that I think you are trying to describe in your work. I'll have to spend more time with it, like I have to with anything new. And opinions change all the time, right? c -- Chris Lott From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Apr 14 11:53:04 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:53:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: two prose poems by Max Jacob Message-ID: Literary Manners I If two groups of writers run into each other the usual thing is to stretch out the greetings with a great many smiles. If one group runs into a stray from another the greetings start at a high level but gradually drop off until the last one on line doesn't even say hello. Or take the time when I was supposed to have said that you had bitten some woman's nipple until you drew blood. If you really believed that I'd said it, why should you greet me? And if I really thought that you'd done it, why should I greet you? But there we were in the house of one of those fabulous ladies with eyeglasses and a knitted cape, and you impulsively reached for my hand. That was how it went until we ended up in the room with the lady's chamberpot and you took the pillows that were piled on her nightstand and threw them at my head. The pillows were very 18th Century, and rumor has it that I threw them back at you instead of explaining what I had done. Or maybe that isn't what happened. But if my group ever runs into you and I'm the last one on line and don't greet you, don't think it's got anything to do with those pillows. Likewise, if my group ever runs into your group and the usual smiles are exchanged, don't think that any are coming from me. Literary Manners II A Havana businessman sent me a cigar wrapped in goldleaf, only a little chewed at one end. The poets at my table all say that he was playing a joke on me, but the old Chinaman who invited us over reminds them that it's an old Cuban custom and a sign of great esteem. Next I show them two magnifi- cent poems that a friend of mine translated and wrote down for me on a scrap of paper, because I said I liked them when he first read them out loud. The poets tell me that everyone knows those poems and that they really aren't worth much. But the old Chinaman says that the poets couldn't have read them before, since the only copy in the world is a rare manuscript in the Pali language, which none of them understand. Then the poets look at each other and burst out laughing like a bunch of kids, and the old Chinaman stares at us all with such sadness. --Max Jacob, tr. Jerome Rothenberg fr. *Le cornet ? d?s* 1945 in *The Random House Book of Twentieth-Century French Poetry* ed., Paul Auster [New York: Random House,1982] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Apr 14 11:53:09 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 11:53:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: two prose poems by Max Jacob Message-ID: Literary Manners I If two groups of writers run into each other the usual thing is to stretch out the greetings with a great many smiles. If one group runs into a stray from another the greetings start at a high level but gradually drop off until the last one on line doesn't even say hello. Or take the time when I was supposed to have said that you had bitten some woman's nipple until you drew blood. If you really believed that I'd said it, why should you greet me? And if I really thought that you'd done it, why should I greet you? But there we were in the house of one of those fabulous ladies with eyeglasses and a knitted cape, and you impulsively reached for my hand. That was how it went until we ended up in the room with the lady's chamberpot and you took the pillows that were piled on her nightstand and threw them at my head. The pillows were very 18th Century, and rumor has it that I threw them back at you instead of explaining what I had done. Or maybe that isn't what happened. But if my group ever runs into you and I'm the last one on line and don't greet you, don't think it's got anything to do with those pillows. Likewise, if my group ever runs into your group and the usual smiles are exchanged, don't think that any are coming from me. Literary Manners II A Havana businessman sent me a cigar wrapped in goldleaf, only a little chewed at one end. The poets at my table all say that he was playing a joke on me, but the old Chinaman who invited us over reminds them that it's an old Cuban custom and a sign of great esteem. Next I show them two magnifi- cent poems that a friend of mine translated and wrote down for me on a scrap of paper, because I said I liked them when he first read them out loud. The poets tell me that everyone knows those poems and that they really aren't worth much. But the old Chinaman says that the poets couldn't have read them before, since the only copy in the world is a rare manuscript in the Pali language, which none of them understand. Then the poets look at each other and burst out laughing like a bunch of kids, and the old Chinaman stares at us all with such sadness. --Max Jacob, tr. Jerome Rothenberg fr. *Le cornet ? d?s* 1945 in *The Random House Book of Twentieth-Century French Poetry* ed., Paul Auster [New York: Random House,1982] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From barry.spacks at verizon.net Mon Apr 14 12:28:06 2003 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:28:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Prose Poems In-Reply-To: <200304141601.h3EG14ST002204@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030414092444.00b5ec10@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:01 PM 4/14/2003 -0400, Hal sent us: Literary Manners I & Literary Manners II by Max Jacob Literary manners demand a "hats off, gentleman" to Hal for his many apt choices (gonna use these brilliant Jacobs in class) -- a comfort to be reminded that prose-poems can do more than simply dizzy & bamboozle, even if composed by a poet...from France). I'd send Hal a big thank-you if I weren't 'last in line.' Barry From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 14 12:56:47 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:56:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Optical Illusions In-Reply-To: <3E9A8D1C.11275.89911F@localhost> References: <019f01c2ffd0$3308f260$2ce6fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9AB00F.11873.112189D@localhost> Optical illusions: http://www.liquidgeneration.com/sabotage/optical_sabotage.asp Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Mon Apr 14 13:35:14 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 13:35:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] sounding off at hgpoetics Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030414133134.00aa9320@postoffice.brown.edu> Since 4/10, I've been using the audio blog feature, to record some old homemade songs, & Island Road in serial fashion, etc. Perhaps sort of a new poetry experience, reading the text while listening to a wobbly Clint Eastwood/Ecclesiastes in the background of your screen. http://hgpoetics.blogspot.com - Henry From elemenope at icubed.com Mon Apr 14 02:57:31 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:57:31 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: Re: "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be far behind?" (Marcus Bales) (Marcus Bales). (Marcus Bales) In-Reply-To: <200304141532.h3EFW2ST001967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304141532.h3EFW2ST001967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Mister Bales: But we aren't discussing the Clintons here. We are trying, if you are sincerely outraged by the purported GRAFT committed by Cheney and Halliburton, to see that justice is done. However, firstly, we must know if indeed GRAFT at the Federal level has escaped the scrutiny of the governmental oversight agencies let alone The Cleveland Plain Dealer and The New York Times! So far all I have seen you do [as I expected] has been to seize on the straws regarding the Clintons in order to divert the investigation (which I assume you require to conduct in order to resolve the outrageous, illegalities conducted by the rascal Pachycerms who seized control of the Presidency [according to you] to install a pseudo-Fascist regime which John Kerry, one of your candidates [I assume], wants to overthrow). I have given you the name and address of the man you need to confront: > >> >>>Charles E. Dominy >>>Vice President >>>Government Affairs, Halliburton Corporation >>>1150 18th St NW Ste 200 >>>Washington, DC 20036 >USA So, let's get to the bottom of your allegations, Mr. B. We'll do Halliburton first and then once you come up empty I'll take you apart point for point, day for day, motion for motion, regarding the 2000 Election. Thus far all you've done is overplay and, now, misplay, your hand because your CARDS ARE BLANK! As to convinctions in the Clinton Adminstration - - well, Vince Foster "suicided" before we could question him as to his Swiss bank accounts filled with ChiKom money. But, that's my conspiracy theory. I bet I can produce more evidence in support of my allegation than you can for your Halliburton attack. First, however, let's take care of Halliburton. Contact Mr. Charles E. Dominy for starters. (I bet you won't do it, but you really ought to if you are not behaving with a lot of hotly aired disingenousness.) > > >Message: 9 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 08:55:04 -0400 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton >be far behind?" (Marcus Bales) (Marcus Bales). >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> You haven't made a case, you've made an accusation which is based on >> a conspiracy theory ... I am not going to defend >> against such an accusation until you make a real case worthy of >> submission to the Solictor General of the United States of America....<< > >This is so absurd -- you tolerate, encourage, and forward emails >about the allegations of the Democrats, and particularly the Clinton >Administration, where one and only one person was convicted of a >felony, though in the Regan Administration dozens were, but you >demand a legal brief before you'll allow that something looks bad in >a Republican administration? > >That's pretty disingenuous. > >Marcus Bales > >marcus at designerglass.com >http://www.designerglass.com > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 14 15:23:04 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:23:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: Re: "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be far behind?" (Marcus Bales) (Marcus Bales). (Marcus Bales) In-Reply-To: References: <200304141532.h3EFW2ST001967@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3E9AD258.15124.1980C23@localhost> > But we aren't discussing the Clintons here. << You brought 'em up. > So, let's get to the bottom of your allegations...<< Well, my allegation is that the Halliburton deal looks bad on the face of it: a no-bid deal given to the corporation that the VP formerly headed. Perhaps the central question is one of whether to the victors go the spoils. If you believe they do, then you may not think that a no-bid deal to the VP's former company is a bad thing. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 16:22:34 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:22:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E9A7306.8167.23A65C@localhost> Message-ID: <005a01c302c3$96a54e40$3154fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > You have implied all kinds of bad things about my moral character, Marcus. > > For instance, that when I say that I haven't time to go deeply into a > > subject, I'm not telling the truth but only trying to keep from admitting > > I'm wrong and/or to make people think I may have an argument when I don't.<< > > Well, Bob, that's no slur on your moral character; that's a slur on > your argument and your rhetorical techniques. It's a common > rhetorical trick, but no better a trick for being common, to issue a > provocative post and then retreat into claims that time does not > allow for proof of the claim. But for all that it's a bad trick, that > you employ a bad trick is no slur on your character -- though it is a > slur on the positions you've taken because positions that can only be > (and alas for your positions that I've seen so far, bad and fallacious > arguments are all you've deployed) In my view, using stupid rhetorical tricks is a sign of a bad character. However, that is irrelevant. I say I do NOT have time for some argument; you reply that I DO, and that I FALSELY say I do not because I know I'll lose the argument if I continue or some similar reason. Ergo, you accuse me of lying, which is a flaw of character, though. > Marcus Bales: > > > I'm sure you're kind to animals and your significant > > > other, and pay your taxes on time, and all that. I disagree with many > > > of your views about art -- insofar as I can get you to state them > > > correctly, that is, so that you yourself actually agree with what you > > > yourself say as you conflate "superior" and "serious" and then > > > pretend that it's a trivial mistake. > > Bob Grumman: > > See. You assert I lied.<< > > I assert that you are using rhetorical trickery instead of engaging > in a discussion. You say I PRETEND my mistake was trivial. That is, you calim I know it is not trivial but say it IS trivial. Ergo, you accuse me of lying, a flaw of character. Your tactics are disingenuous -- but that's not an > accusation that you're a liar. It's certainly a flaw of character. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 16:25:53 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:25:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel References: <3E9A7486.26831.29813F@localhost> Message-ID: <006601c302c4$0cf60080$3154fea9@j1c1k6> > > > On 11 Apr 2003 at 22:24, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > ... I don't see much point in > > > > > > trying to give you a list of "best works," > > > > > > because I'm not that sure which are the best, or even which are > > good, which > > > > > > not-that-good.<< > > > > > > Marcus Bales: > > > > > Well, that's the fundamental, central failure in your claim,then, > > > > > isn't it, Bob? > > > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > It's hard to say, Marcus. There are so many defects in my claim that > > > > determining which one is the fundamental ONE is very difficult, > > especially for > > > > me, since I haven't got any standards by which to judge claims.<< > > Marcus Bales: > > > You'll just have to trust me, then, Bob -- that's the fundamental > > > one. I'm glad to see you've finally decided to acknowledge the faults > > > in your presentations honestly and openly. It's cathartic, isn't it? > > > Makes you feel good, I'm sure. One step at a time, Bob. Easy does > > > it. > > Bob Grumman: > > I've acknowledged many times how accurate your assessments of my > > intelligence (which, of course, has nothing to do with me) and moral > > character....<< > > You have the courage to be wrong, often spectacularly wrong, Bob -- > and everyone who knows you admires that, I'm sure. You're often wrong > but never in doubt. > > Marcus Bales Amusing. He assails me for saying "I'm not that sure which are the best, or even which are good, which not-that-good," then describes me as never in doubt (a character flaw, by the way). I am, of course, often in doubt, and often state that I am in doubt. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 14 16:37:29 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:37:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview In-Reply-To: <005a01c302c3$96a54e40$3154fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9AE3C9.31476.1DC2F29@localhost> Bob Grumman: > In my view, using stupid rhetorical tricks is a sign of a bad character.< Well, then, why do you use them? Bob Grumman: > ... I say I do NOT have time for some argument; > you reply that I DO,...<< I don't say that you do; I say that it is your habit to make provocative statements and in response to responses you do not engage in a discussion of the issues on their merits but, instead, say you don't have time to do so. You may or may not have time, but using the excuse of having no time over and over after making provocative statements, combined with the time you always seem to have to engage in silly arguments such as this one over whether or not what you say is really what you mean, it sure seems as if you're just making an excuse to avoid engagement in the discussion. I'm not sure that such an excuse is anything more than disingenuous; I sure wouldn't say you're telling a lie, and I haven't said it. Bob Grumman: > You say I PRETEND my mistake was trivial. That is, you calim I know it is > not trivial but say it IS trivial. Ergo, you accuse me of lying, a flaw of > character.<< I've carefully distinguished disingenuousness from lying, and it seems to me that that's what's going on here. In fact it seems pretty disingenuous to me that you're willing to spend the time and effort to argue about whether or not you are lying but you're not willing to spend the time and effort to discuss the issues on their merits. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 16:42:50 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:42:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9A8D1C.11275.89911F@localhost> Message-ID: <007a01c302c6$6c307100$3154fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > Final argument: if the cultural works of the past are equal to the > > cultural works made in the present, why are so few of the latter a > > directly living part of anyone's life?<< > > Who says they're not? I did, but I was exaggerating. And imprecise. Because this is an informal discussion. I do say that artworks of the past are a directly living part of very few persons' aesthetic lives. Most of the ones still in circulation are visited as historical monuments not for any aesthetic thrill--in my view. But I will withdraw the argument. > Bob Grumman: > > I say that the makers of > > the artworks of the past were equal to the makers of later artworks > > just as Newton was equal to Einstein but that their works were > > superceded, just as Newton's were....<< > > What about Ptolemy and Gallileo and Copernicus? I think they were all comparable to Einstein and Newton, and Gallileo may have been equal to Einstein and Newton, but I don't know enough about it to be sure. > What you're claiming here, Bob, is that there is a connection between > art and the real world that is as measurable as the one between > science and the real world. It's preposterous on the face of it. Art > is more analogous to religion or politics than to science -- and all > your attempts to taxonomize art can be no more successful than > attempts to taxonomize religion. Oh? There's no difference between monotheism and polytheism? >It's an errand that will always be > well behind schism and synod, faction and party, in their changes and > deaths and recombinations and resurrections and, because the taxonomy > is well-behind, it will always be pretty useless as a tool with which > to examine the reality at hand at any given present. Pure dogma. > It's not really a taxonomy, in short, for all that you call it one, > any more than one can say a dog has five legs if you call a tail a > leg. Calling it one doesn't make it so. I thought we were talking about Newton and Einstein. Are we now talking about my taxonomy of poetry? If so, calling it not one without saying why it is not one does not make it not one. > You're proposing an anthology, at best -- but pseudo-scientism I consider that an attack on my moral character. (Don't worry, I don't mind such attacks. I just mention it because you think you're such a perfect gentleman.) It's also a worthless assertion because you don't say why it's "pseudo-scientism." > is not help, it's a hindrance, in fields where > subjective judgments make up the field. Fields are worthless to the extent that they consist of subjective judgements. > Bob Grumman: > > ... someone who thought Manet's works > > equal to or better than anything after him would be about as high > > on the painting-appreciation scale, in my view, as I am on the > > music-appreciation scale ...<< > > Here, again, is another example of your claim that there is a > necessary and measurable progression in art. Is there a necessary and measurable progression in the art of a human being from the age of one month to the age of sixty? >This is pseudo- > scientism, trying to use the terms and the forms of science as if > they applied where they do not apply. > > Marcus Bales No, it's a common sense claim that some modern painter, having many more ways of making pictures than Manet had must surely outdo him. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 16:49:49 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 16:49:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9A8D1C.29725.89902D@localhost> Message-ID: <008001c302c7$6489b640$3154fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > ... Why should > > the arts be different from > > technology? If cars can be superior to horse-drawn chariots, why can't > > modern poems be better than ancient poems?> > This is a category-error, Bob. Poems and cars are man-made things. >Poems and the arts on the one hand > are a different kind of endeavor, not merely different in degree, > from cars and technology on the other. Is every artwork unimprovable? >You might as well contend that > modern prayer is better than ancient prayer because we have better > praying techniques and better gods. > > Marcus Bales Since no one is privy to the mind of God or the gods, we can't judge prayers, assuming we judge them on their ability to persuade whomever they are addressed to though I believe prayers are more complex than that. --Bob G. From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 14 16:53:28 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:53:28 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9A8D1C.11275.89911F@localhost> <007a01c302c6$6c307100$3154fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <022401c302c7$e7ad2f20$5b15e589@devbox> On Monday, April 14, 2003 12:42 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > No, it's a common sense claim that some modern painter, having many > more ways of making pictures than Manet had must surely outdo him. I see nothing of common sense about this claim. Having more methods does not equal doing a job better. That is the central issue with which I take dispute. I don't want to argue about it either, but I have to point out that this "more tools means superior work" idea doesn't follow as necessarily as you think it does. It's all about aesthetics, after all, and for much of it there is no real way to find common ground. What seems obvious to you seems absurd to me, and we both base that on our experience with what we find powerful, moving, superior, etc. I can live with that difference. I'd much rather talk about individual work. And I again maintain, no one has bested Milton, Dante, or Faulkner for that matter, regardless of the availability of more tools, more experiences, mass media, etc. If anything, I would be ready to argue that the negative aspects of technological progress in our society have caused a narrow but detectible dumbing-down, and in some arts an aesthetic turn that has elevated sheer difference above real profundity. So you have Dave Eggers and the McSweeney-ites decrying the lack of "real storytelling" in modern fiction while they churn out work devoid of any intellectual interest beyond a solipsistic hip irony and an arch languor, that is just another turn on the merry-go-round of "progress" in storytelling that they despise. They don't see the larger irony in their own position, because intent on doing something new they ran right into the wall where they lost touch with that which makes a work of fiction a work of fiction. But I am glad they are finally coming round and seeing that being hip and new doesn't mean one is writing any *better*. But that is a rant of a different genre... c -- Chris Lott From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 17:28:07 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:28:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E9AE3C9.31476.1DC2F29@localhost> Message-ID: <00d401c302cc$beb32020$3154fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > In my view, using stupid rhetorical tricks is a sign of a bad character.< > Well, then, why do you use them? I don't. > Bob Grumman: > > ... I say I do NOT have time for some argument; > > you reply that I DO,...<< > > I don't say that you do; I say that it is your habit to make > provocative statements and in response to responses you do not engage > in a discussion of the issues on their merits but, instead, say you > don't have time to do so. You may or may not have time, but using the > excuse of having no time over and over after making provocative > statements, combined with the time you always seem to have to engage > in silly arguments such as this one I don't ALWAYS have time for silly arguments like this one. I get caught up with them, anyway, because they are VERY EASY to participate in, unlike the arguments I haven't time for (which are usually just as silly as this one). > I've carefully distinguished disingenuousness from lying, and it > seems to me that that's what's going on here. In fact it seems > pretty disingenuous to me that you're willing to spend the time and > effort to argue about whether or not you are lying but you're not > willing to spend the time and effort to discuss the issues on their > merits. I have discussed the issues on their merits more than once. But often not--because I lack the time to OR because you aren't worth trying to discuss an important issue with because you're out to trip me, not to understand me. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 14 17:28:55 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:28:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <007a01c302c6$6c307100$3154fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9AEFD7.27496.20B4736@localhost> Bob Grumman: > I think they were all comparable to Einstein and Newton, and Gallileo may > have been equal to Einstein and Newton, but I don't know enough about it to > be sure. Well if you don't know enough about it to be sure perhaps it would be wise for you to withdraw this argument, too. Marcus Bales: > > What you're claiming here, Bob, is that there is a connection between > > art and the real world that is as measurable as the one between > > science and the real world. It's preposterous on the face of it. Art > > is more analogous to religion or politics than to science -- and all > > your attempts to taxonomize art can be no more successful than > > attempts to taxonomize religion. Bob Grumman: > Oh? There's no difference between monotheism and polytheism? Not every identification of differences is a taxonomy. Trying to taxonomize a field where who is who and what is what is a matter of subjective judgment is problematic at best because the distinctions are volitional. Taxonomies are only useful tools where the units that make up the taxonomy haven't got volition to change categories. Marcus Bales: > >It's an errand that will always be > > well behind schism and synod, faction and party, in their changes and > > deaths and recombinations and resurrections and, because the taxonomy > > is well-behind, it will always be pretty useless as a tool with which > > to examine the reality at hand at any given present.<< Bob Grumman: > Pure dogma.< No, Bob, it's merely definitional. There's no use for a taxonomy where the units that make it up can change categories. Marcus Bales: > > You're proposing an anthology, at best -- but pseudo-scientism< Bob Grumman: > I consider that an attack on my moral character....<< Well, then you must regard any disagreement with your golden showers of words as an attack on your moral character! You are claiming here that one cannot make a mistake in th use of a word or the application of a notion, or perhaps in any way without revealing, in your view, a character flaw? Every mistake is a character flaw, for you, Bob? Marcus Bales: > > is not help, it's a hindrance, in fields where > > subjective judgments make up the field. Bob Grumman: > Fields are worthless to the extent that they consist of subjective > judgements.< What's the objective measure of that assertion? Bob Grumman: > Is there a necessary and measurable progression in the art of a > human being from the age of one month to the age of sixty? No, because the notion "human being" is too broad. What's the necessary and measurable progression that both Mahatma Gandhi and Saddam Hussein followed as "human beings" and not merely as physical entities? You have to define "human being" pretty carefully in order to find a necessary and measurable progression that will cover such a range, or you have to define it pretty carefully to exclude some individuals from the category of "human being". Bob Grumman: > ... it's a common sense claim that some modern painter, having many > more ways of making pictures than Manet had must surely outdo him. This is the assertion that art is merely technological -- that computer graphics art is necessarily better than brushwork on canvas, and that's better than its predecessor, and that better than its, in an endless regression through the technological changes in art through the ages. It doesn't matter to you, it appears, whether it's Chagall or Churchill, a painting in the 20th Century has got to be better, in your view, than one from the 19th! And, of course, Chuck Berry's music is better than Beethoven's, Mick Jagger's than Mussorgsky's. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 17:36:45 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:36:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9A8D1C.11275.89911F@localhost> <007a01c302c6$6c307100$3154fea9@j1c1k6> <022401c302c7$e7ad2f20$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <00df01c302cd$f3ada2e0$3154fea9@j1c1k6> > On Monday, April 14, 2003 12:42 PM, Bob Grumman > spake thusly: > > > No, it's a common sense claim that some modern painter, having many > > more ways of making pictures than Manet had must surely outdo him. > > I see nothing of common sense about this claim. Having more methods does not > equal doing a job better. That is the central issue with which I take > dispute. I don't want to argue about it either, but I have to point out that > this "more tools means superior work" idea doesn't follow as necessarily as > you think it does. Rembrandt is not better than the cave painters because of superior tools, more colors, etc.? I like the cave paintings, but if you told me someone had just discovered that they were faked, and actually done in 1820, almost all my interest in them would vanish. > It's all about aesthetics, after all, and for much of it there is no real > way to find common ground. What seems obvious to you seems absurd to me, and > we both base that on our experience with what we find powerful, moving, > superior, etc. I can live with that difference. I'd much rather talk about > individual work. And I again maintain, no one has bested Milton, Dante, or > Faulkner for that matter, regardless of the availability of more tools, more > experiences, mass media, etc. Are you saying their works were perfect? I'm not big on the work of any of them, especially the creator of that narratively-empty paeon to intolerance, Dante. Gee, I'm still arguing this! --Bob G. From chryss at silcom.com Mon Apr 14 17:37:23 2003 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:37:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <3E9AEFD7.27496.20B4736@localhost> Message-ID: Would you boys take it outside, please? C. In the message on 4/14/03 2:28 PM, Marcus Bales wrote: > Bob Grumman: >> I think they were all comparable to Einstein and Newton, and Gallileo may >> have been equal to Einstein and Newton, but I don't know enough about it to >> be sure. > > Well if you don't know enough about it to be sure perhaps it would be > wise for you to withdraw this argument, too. > > Marcus Bales: >>> What you're claiming here, Bob, is that there is a connection between >>> art and the real world that is as measurable as the one between >>> science and the real world. It's preposterous on the face of it. Art >>> is more analogous to religion or politics than to science -- and all >>> your attempts to taxonomize art can be no more successful than >>> attempts to taxonomize religion. > > Bob Grumman: >> Oh? There's no difference between monotheism and polytheism? > > Not every identification of differences is a taxonomy. Trying to > taxonomize a field where who is who and what is what is a matter of > subjective judgment is problematic at best because the distinctions > are volitional. Taxonomies are only useful tools where the units that > make up the taxonomy haven't got volition to change categories. > > Marcus Bales: >>> It's an errand that will always be >>> well behind schism and synod, faction and party, in their changes and >>> deaths and recombinations and resurrections and, because the taxonomy >>> is well-behind, it will always be pretty useless as a tool with which >>> to examine the reality at hand at any given present.<< > > Bob Grumman: >> Pure dogma.< > > No, Bob, it's merely definitional. There's no use for a taxonomy > where the units that make it up can change categories. > > Marcus Bales: >>> You're proposing an anthology, at best -- but pseudo-scientism< > > Bob Grumman: >> I consider that an attack on my moral character....<< > > Well, then you must regard any disagreement with your golden showers > of words as an attack on your moral character! You are claiming here > that one cannot make a mistake in th use of a word or the application > of a notion, or perhaps in any way without revealing, in your view, a > character flaw? Every mistake is a character flaw, for you, Bob? > > Marcus Bales: >>> is not help, it's a hindrance, in fields where >>> subjective judgments make up the field. > > Bob Grumman: >> Fields are worthless to the extent that they consist of subjective >> judgements.< > > What's the objective measure of that assertion? > > Bob Grumman: >> Is there a necessary and measurable progression in the art of a >> human being from the age of one month to the age of sixty? > > No, because the notion "human being" is too broad. What's the > necessary and measurable progression that both Mahatma Gandhi and > Saddam Hussein followed as "human beings" and not merely as physical > entities? You have to define "human being" pretty carefully in order > to find a necessary and measurable progression that will cover such a > range, or you have to define it pretty carefully to exclude some > individuals from the category of "human being". > > Bob Grumman: >> ... it's a common sense claim that some modern painter, having many >> more ways of making pictures than Manet had must surely outdo him. > > This is the assertion that art is merely technological -- that > computer graphics art is necessarily better than brushwork on canvas, > and that's better than its predecessor, and that better than its, in > an endless regression through the technological changes in art > through the ages. It doesn't matter to you, it appears, whether it's > Chagall or Churchill, a painting in the 20th Century has got to be > better, in your view, than one from the 19th! And, of course, Chuck > Berry's music is better than Beethoven's, Mick Jagger's than > Mussorgsky's. > > > > > > > > > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 17:41:50 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:41:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00ac01c30270$f7e860a0$40e6fea9@j1c1k6> <01c501c3029a$82e8a650$6601a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <00e501c302ce$aab7da00$3154fea9@j1c1k6> > > Thanks for taking the time to look at them. I spent as much time > > making most of them as any traditional poet spends on his poems. > > Whatever their defects, they are not notes. It IS difficult to > > appreciate them, though. One has to be capable of the thrill, or of > > remembering the thrill one had, of discovering that one could subject > > seven and six to a process that made forty-two--and one has to be > > able to experience this thrill at the same time one experiences the > > pleasure of the "haiku moment" that is at the center of most of my > > mathemaku. That has to do with being able to feel the connection > > between two or more images. A person for whom haiku do nothing will > > not likely get much from my poems. I think one also has to have a > > visceral understanding of both rigorous analyticality and > > free-ranging intuition and of the difference between them since they > > form, I hope, the dark and light of my poems. > > I don't want to get lost in a discussion about the definition of poetry. It > just seems to me that a lot of this visual work that doesn't read like > poetry or look like a painting inhabits some world in between that needs to > be approached differently. In a way. I think approaching my works as poems helps, though. They are quite paraphrasable, and the mathematical apparati can be considered punctuation. >I don't see what makes it poetry, The use of words in non-prose that are intended to cause aesthetic pleasure. > but it isn't > all that important in the grand scheme of things. > > And I certainly don't mean to imply that you don't spend plenty of time on > them. What I mean is that they strike me as unfinished in ways that I expect > from poems. But when I went back to look again this morning I pictured them > (don't take this as a slight) as large posters or broadsides and that > context seemed to fit better. You aren't the first to say that, and I do think some of them would be better big. > Ironically enough, I am a big fan of haiku, though mostly traditional haiku. > I find a lot of the more modern attempts, particularly Beat and American > Haiku to be lacking that essential spark that I think you are trying to > describe in your work. I agree. Of course, many traditional haiku lack it, too. Even some of Baho's--at least in translation. > I'll have to spend more time with it, like I have to with anything new. And > opinions change all the time, right? > > c If yours changes about my poetry, don't tell Marcus. --Bob G. > Chris Lott > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 14 17:44:03 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:44:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <008001c302c7$6489b640$3154fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9AF363.15047.219253F@localhost> > > Bob Grumman: > > > ... Why should > > > the arts be different from > > > technology? If cars can be superior to horse-drawn chariots, why can't > > > modern poems be better than ancient poems?> > > This is a category-error, Bob. Bob Grumman: > Poems and cars are man-made things. They're different KINDS of man-made things, though, Bob; with different purposes and different intentions on the parts of their makers. That's precisely the category error you're making: that you are claiming that poems and cars are the same kind of thing because each is man-made. Bob Grumman: > Is every artwork unimprovable?< This, too, is a category error: the kind of thing we mean when we say we "improve" a car is different from the kind of thing we mean when we say we "improve" a poem. Marcus Bales: > >You might as well contend that > > modern prayer is better than ancient prayer because we have better > > praying techniques and better gods. Bob Grumman: > Since no one is privy to the mind of God or the gods, we can't judge > prayers, assuming we judge them on their ability to persuade whomever they > are addressed to though I believe prayers are more complex than that.< But Bob -- prayers are man-made things! If you assert that poems and cars are the same kind of thing you have to accept that prayers and cars are the same kinds of things, too. Since it's clear that prayers and cars, though both man-made, are different KINDS of thing, it seems as if your insistence that any man-made thing is sufficiently like any other man-made thing to be evaluated and judged in a technological progression, then if we cannot reasonably say that prayer has progressed technologically over the ages then you have to examine your premise. There are different kinds of man-made things, and not all of them are amenable to technological progress. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 14 17:44:03 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:44:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview In-Reply-To: <00d401c302cc$beb32020$3154fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9AF363.12252.2192463@localhost> > > Bob Grumman: > > > In my view, using stupid rhetorical tricks is a sign of a bad > character.< Marcus Bales; > > Well, then, why do you use them? Bob Grumman: > I don't. You do. Bob Grumman: > I don't ALWAYS have time for silly arguments like this one. I get caught up > with them, anyway, because they are VERY EASY to participate in, unlike the > arguments I haven't time for (which are usually just as silly as this one).<< Well actually I find it easier to think and write about interesting and important issues than the kind of crappy ad hominem stuff you nearly always throw at your interlocutors. Bob Grumman: > ... because you aren't worth trying to > discuss an important issue with ...<< This is ad hominem, Bob -- just another example of the rhetorical trickery you employ instead of addressing the merits of an issue. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Apr 14 17:47:13 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:47:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Prose Poems In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030414092444.00b5ec10@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: And if I see someone smiling, Mssr. Spacks, I'll know it isn't you (ironicon here, please). I'll do my best this week and maybe next to work against the rising tide of Francophobia by passing along more French stuff. Make sure you're listening to Debussy, Ravel, Dutilleux, Messiaen, Grapelli, Aznavour, Piaf or the French sounds of your choice and sipping a little cognac as you read. Hal { At 12:01 PM 4/14/2003 -0400, Hal sent us: { Literary Manners I & Literary Manners II by Max Jacob { { Literary manners demand a "hats off, gentleman" { to Hal for his many apt choices (gonna use these { brilliant Jacobs in class) { { -- a comfort to be reminded that prose-poems can do { more than simply dizzy & bamboozle, even if { composed by a poet...from France). { { I'd send Hal a big thank-you if I weren't 'last in line.' { { Barry { { { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 14 17:57:13 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 17:57:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Emanuel In-Reply-To: <006601c302c4$0cf60080$3154fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9AF679.1976.225315F@localhost> > > > > On 11 Apr 2003 at 22:24, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > ... I don't see much point in > > > > > > > trying to give you a list of "best works," > > > > > > > because I'm not that sure which are the best, or even which are > > > good, which not-that-good.<< > > > > Marcus Bales: > > > > > > Well, that's the fundamental, central failure in your claim,then, > > > > > > isn't it, Bob? > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > > It's hard to say, Marcus. There are so many defects in my claim that > > > > > determining which one is the fundamental ONE is very difficult, > > > especially for > > > > > me, since I haven't got any standards by which to judge claims.<< > > Marcus Bales: > > > > You'll just have to trust me, then, Bob -- that's the fundamental > > > > one. I'm glad to see you've finally decided to acknowledge the faults > > > > in your presentations honestly and openly. It's cathartic, isn't it? > > > > Makes you feel good, I'm sure. One step at a time, Bob. Easy does > > > > it. > > Bob Grumman: > > > I've acknowledged many times how accurate your assessments of my > > > intelligence (which, of course, has nothing to do with me) and moral > > > character....<< Marcus Bales: > > You have the courage to be wrong, often spectacularly wrong, Bob -- > > and everyone who knows you admires that, I'm sure. You're often wrong > > but never in doubt. Bob Grumman: > Amusing. He assails me for saying "I'm not that sure which are the best, or > even which are > good, which not-that-good," then describes me as never in doubt (a character > flaw, by the way). I am, of course, often in doubt, and often state that I > am in doubt. You are asserting that there ARE "best works" and that you KNOW there are such works because Manet must be better than any painter before him, and that Milton was better than any poet before him, but has been superceded in excellence by any poet after him. Your doubts are not doubts -- they're disingenuous attempts to have it both ways. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 14 18:11:48 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:11:48 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9A8D1C.11275.89911F@localhost> <007a01c302c6$6c307100$3154fea9@j1c1k6> <022401c302c7$e7ad2f20$5b15e589@devbox> <00df01c302cd$f3ada2e0$3154fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <02ae01c302d2$d942d790$5b15e589@devbox> On Monday, April 14, 2003 1:36 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: >> On Monday, April 14, 2003 12:42 PM, Bob Grumman >> spake thusly: >> >>> No, it's a common sense claim that some modern painter, having many >>> more ways of making pictures than Manet had must surely outdo him. >> >> I see nothing of common sense about this claim. Having more methods >> does not equal doing a job better. That is the central issue with >> which I take dispute. I don't want to argue about it either, but I >> have to point out that this "more tools means superior work" idea >> doesn't follow as necessarily as you think it does. > > Rembrandt is not better than the cave painters because of superior > tools, more colors, etc.? I like the cave paintings, but if you told > me someone had just discovered that they were faked, and actually > done in 1820, almost all my interest in them would vanish. You always choose examples so far separated in time that you are hardly talking about the same art form any longer. Has anyone done better cave paintings? Has anyone tried? Certainly new methods mean a painter can create finer, more consistent strokes, just as one now has more words in a vocabulary to tell a story. But that doesn't mean that more possibilities of word choice means that Shakespeare has been eclipsed by August Wilson. A cave painter and Degas are doing different things, but I would be willing to accept many other comparisons, some of which I have made myself. Has anyone written a novel better than The Sound and the Fury? I haven't found it yet, but it is what, 50 years later? Surely all the advances in perspective must mean that the works have improved :) I have found other great works, but none that I can hold up and say "this is better." I have a number I would put in my pantheon of the best works, including novels as disparate as _Infinite Jest_ and _The Great Gatsby_, _The Invisible Man_ and _The Heart of Darkness_. As I understand it, I should be able to lay these best out in order of creation and there will be a progression of great to greater to greatest? And it doesn't have to be my examples, it should be anyone's right? But it doesn't work that way for me or for many others. So are we just misguided in our appreciation or does your external equation of modernity = more = progress color your own appreciation? >> It's all about aesthetics, after all, and for much of it there is no >> real way to find common ground. What seems obvious to you seems >> absurd to me, and we both base that on our experience with what we >> find powerful, moving, superior, etc. I can live with that >> difference. I'd much rather talk about individual work. And I again >> maintain, no one has bested Milton, Dante, or Faulkner for that >> matter, regardless of the availability of more tools, more >> experiences, mass media, etc. > > Are you saying their works were perfect? I'm not big on the work of > any of them, especially the creator of that narratively-empty paeon > to intolerance, Dante. The Sound and the Fury is, as far as I am concerned, as perfect as a novel can get. But it doesn't have to be that... each user can insert their own favorites there. The point is, if one has something that is their favorite and it is not of the past decade, then doesn't that, on its face, disprove your thesis? Or does your thesis only apply with 100 or 200 or 300 or x years of separation? I'm sorry, but there are just too many masters whose work remains relevant and unsurpassed for me to make any sense of your contention that work in this decade has to be superior. > Gee, I'm still arguing this! It's much more interesting when one can talk about specifics. But it still comes down to "I like it" and "Well I don't" since I can keep listing those works that I think are "the best" (as I did with novels already in this post) and you will just come back with telling me how I am wrong... I don't see much way around that, since we are unlikely to convince one another. c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 14 18:57:56 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 14:57:56 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00ac01c30270$f7e860a0$40e6fea9@j1c1k6> <01c501c3029a$82e8a650$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00e501c302ce$aab7da00$3154fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <035f01c302d9$4aeeab20$5b15e589@devbox> On Monday, April 14, 2003 1:41 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > In a way. I think approaching my works as poems helps, though. They > are quite paraphrasable, and the mathematical apparati can be > considered punctuation. Fair enough. But that is why they seem like the beginnings of what I would call a poem. When I look at something like Mathemaku #6a, I can certainly create a narrative in my head that will involve, among other things, camping with my father and reading Mark Twain... the poem provides an entree, but all the poem's work is what hasn't been followed-through with on the page. So, it reminds me a bit of those picture frames where you can stick your head through and become a cowboy or a soldier. I can make a story of that picture, as I can create a poem from a paraphrase based on the words and symbols, but that would be my poem, not yours :) This is tied to what I consider an effective poem, though. >> I don't see what makes it poetry, > > The use of words in non-prose that are intended to cause aesthetic > pleasure. I guess my quibble would be that I define poetry in a somewhat more directed fashion. A definition would have to involve syntax, and I don't want to be confined to narrative, so I would say "coherence", etc. And could a poem have only letters and symbols? Can a math formula be a poem? How about a recursive textual element? Each of these have their beauties in one form or another, and each are poetic, but I guess I have certain lines I draw so that my categories are sensical to me. >> Ironically enough, I am a big fan of haiku, though mostly >> traditional haiku. I find a lot of the more modern attempts, >> particularly Beat and American Haiku to be lacking that essential >> spark that I think you are trying to describe in your work. > > I agree. Of course, many traditional haiku lack it, too. Even some > of Baho's--at least in translation. agreed. No one's perfect, a translator makes it even less likely :) c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 14 19:02:23 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 15:02:23 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00ac01c30270$f7e860a0$40e6fea9@j1c1k6> <01c501c3029a$82e8a650$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00e501c302ce$aab7da00$3154fea9@j1c1k6> <035f01c302d9$4aeeab20$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <036701c302d9$e9b296e0$5b15e589@devbox> Incidentally, in Mathemaku 6a -- is the parentheses supposed to fall before, on top of, or after the "a" in "island" ?? c -- Chris Lott From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Apr 14 21:41:58 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:41:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel In-Reply-To: <3E9AF679.1976.225315F@localhost> Message-ID: Let's see if I've got this right. On 11 Apr 2003 at 22:24, Bob Grumman wrote: > >>>>> >>>>>>>> ... Then Chris Lott replied: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And Marcus Bales interjected: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> [snip] Is that about where things stand right now? ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bardo at optonline.net Mon Apr 14 21:48:14 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:48:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel References: Message-ID: <00c201c302f1$14b3d6d0$6d94c044@MULDER> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< To: Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 9:41 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel > Let's see if I've got this right. > > On 11 Apr 2003 at 22:24, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> ... > > Then Chris Lott replied: > > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > And Marcus Bales interjected: > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> [snip] > > > Is that about where things stand right now? > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Apr 14 21:52:23 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:52:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { Let's see if I've got this right. { { On 11 Apr 2003 at 22:24, Bob Grumman wrote: { { > { >>>>> { >>>>>>>> ... { { Then Chris Lott replied: { { >>>>>>> >>>>>>> { >>>>>>> >>>>>>> { >>> { >>>>>>>>>>>>>> { { And Marcus Bales interjected: { { >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> { >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> [snip] { { { Is that about where things stand right now? All you missed, David, were the frequent choruses of ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Hal "I can see that you are the kind of young man who is accustomed to winning arguments." --Gertrude Stein to Mortimer Adler Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Apr 14 22:11:09 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:11:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogres Message-ID: On a number of sites featuring anti-war poems I've seen mentioned or quoted the following poem by W.S. Merwin, evidently written to order for one of the recent poetical gatherings in protest of the war in Iraq. The poem has evidently attracted some real admiration. So I wonder if anyone might be interested in engaging the old question of political poetry by way of a look at Merwin's poem. I find it a pretty unimpressive piece, myself, though I guess the ending does take an interesting turn. Still, it seems to take rather a long while to get to that ending, and rhetoric like "the frauds in office" strikes me as generic at best. Ogres All night waking to the sound of light rain falling softly through the leaves in the quiet valley below the window and to Paula lying here asleep beside me and to the murmur beside the bed of the dogs' snoring like small waves coming ashore I am amazed at the fortune of this moment in the whole of the dark this unspoken favor while it is with us this breathing peace and then I think of the frauds in office at this instant devising their massacres in my name what part of me could they have come from were they made of my loathing itself and dredged from the bitter depths of my shame --W. S. Merwin ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From bardo at optonline.net Mon Apr 14 22:40:49 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:40:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogres References: Message-ID: <00db01c302f8$6d5e7e00$6d94c044@MULDER> Do the tighten up: Surveillance for WSM officials devise massacres without knowing my though in my name where in the name of god did they find it Daniel Zimmerman ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 10:11 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogres > On a number of sites featuring anti-war poems I've seen mentioned or quoted > the following poem by W.S. Merwin, evidently written to order for one of the > recent poetical gatherings in protest of the war in Iraq. > > The poem has evidently attracted some real admiration. So I wonder if > anyone might be interested in engaging the old question of political poetry > by way of a look at Merwin's poem. I find it a pretty unimpressive piece, > myself, though I guess the ending does take an interesting turn. Still, it > seems to take rather a long while to get to that ending, and rhetoric like > "the frauds in office" strikes me as generic at best. > > > > Ogres > > All night waking to the sound > of light rain falling softly > through the leaves in the quiet > valley below the window > and to Paula lying here > asleep beside me and to > the murmur beside the bed > of the dogs' snoring like small > waves coming ashore I > am amazed at the fortune > of this moment in the whole > of the dark this unspoken > favor while it is with us > this breathing peace and then I > think of the frauds in office > at this instant devising > their massacres in my name > what part of me could they have > come from were they made of my > loathing itself and dredged from > the bitter depths of my shame > > --W. S. Merwin > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 22:54:17 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:54:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9AEFD7.27496.20B4736@localhost> Message-ID: <002701c302fa$52690640$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > I think they were all comparable to Einstein and Newton, and Gallileo may > > have been equal to Einstein and Newton, but I don't know enough about it to > > be sure. > Well if you don't know enough about it to be sure perhaps it would be > wise for you to withdraw this argument, too. No, I'm one of those stupid people who expresses opinions even without being sure. Otherwise, I wouldn't get to express many opinions. > Marcus Bales: > > > What you're claiming here, Bob, is that there is a connection between > > > art and the real world that is as measurable as the one between > > > science and the real world. It's preposterous on the face of it. Art > > > is more analogous to religion or politics than to science -- and all > > > your attempts to taxonomize art can be no more successful than > > > attempts to taxonomize religion. > > Bob Grumman: > > Oh? There's no difference between monotheism and polytheism? > > Not every identification of differences is a taxonomy. It's the beginning of one. But I don't have time to go into it. >Trying to > taxonomize a field where who is who and what is what is a matter of > subjective judgment is problematic at best because the distinctions > are volitional. Taxonomies are only useful tools where the units that > make up the taxonomy haven't got volition to change categories. Marcus, you haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. > Marcus Bales: > > >It's an errand that will always be > > > well behind schism and synod, faction and party, in their changes and > > > deaths and recombinations and resurrections and, because the taxonomy > > > is well-behind, it will always be pretty useless as a tool with which > > > to examine the reality at hand at any given present.<< > > Bob Grumman: > > Pure dogma.< > > No, Bob, it's merely definitional. There's no use for a taxonomy > where the units that make it up can change categories. That is not the case in my taxonomy. > Marcus Bales: > > > You're proposing an anthology, at best -- but pseudo-scientism< > > Bob Grumman: > > I consider that an attack on my moral character....<< > > Well, then you must regard any disagreement with your golden showers > of words as an attack on your moral character! Right. The "any" follows. But perhaps you're right that you're "only" calling me stupid--because I don't realize how pseudo whatever my taxonomy is-- rather than accusing me, again, of pretending. > You are claiming here > that one cannot make a mistake in th use of a word or the application > of a notion, or perhaps in any way without revealing, in your view, a > character flaw? Every mistake is a character flaw, for you, Bob? Every. Do you know how often a one becomes and "any" or an "every" for you, Marcus. Sign of either/or thinking--which, in turn, is a sign of rigidnikry. > Marcus Bales: > > > is not help, it's a hindrance, in fields where > > > subjective judgments make up the field. > > Bob Grumman: > > Fields are worthless to the extent that they consist of subjective > > judgements.< > > What's the objective measure of that assertion? Astrology's predictive value versus astronomy's. > Bob Grumman: > > Is there a necessary and measurable progression in the art of a > > human being from the age of one month to the age of sixty? > > No, because the notion "human being" is too broad. What's the > necessary and measurable progression that both Mahatma Gandhi and > Saddam Hussein followed as "human beings" and not merely as physical > entities? You have to define "human being" pretty carefully in order > to find a necessary and measurable progression that will cover such a > range, or you have to define it pretty carefully to exclude some > individuals from the category of "human being". I accept the standard objective definition. But forget that: Is there a necessary and measurable progression in the art of any entity or whatever that you define as a human being from the age of one month to the age of sixty? > Bob Grumman: > > ... it's a common sense claim that some modern painter, having many > > more ways of making pictures than Manet had must surely outdo him. > > This is the assertion that art is merely technological -- that > computer graphics art is necessarily better than brushwork on canvas, > and that's better than its predecessor, and that better than its, in > an endless regression through the technological changes in art > through the ages. It doesn't matter to you, it appears, whether it's > Chagall or Churchill, a painting in the 20th Century has got to be > better, in your view, than one from the 19th! Completely wrong due to your either/or insanity. The idea is that the person with the computer can ALSO use a brush--and every other tool discovered for making art--and subject, and way of doing things, etc., etc.--including, now, animation. >And, of course, Chuck > Berry's music is better than Beethoven's, Mick Jagger's than > Mussorgsky's. You obviously can't follow my reasoning. Which is NOT brilliant or novel or difficult. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 22:58:37 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 22:58:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9AF363.15047.219253F@localhost> Message-ID: <002f01c302fa$eaff8640$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > ... Why should > > > > the arts be different from > > > > technology? If cars can be superior to horse-drawn chariots, why can't > > > > modern poems be better than ancient poems?> > > > This is a category-error, Bob. > > Bob Grumman: > > Poems and cars are man-made things. > > They're different KINDS of man-made things, though, Bob; with > different purposes and different intentions on the parts of their > makers. That's precisely the category error you're making: that you > are claiming that poems and cars are the same kind of thing because > each is man-made. Among many other things. > Bob Grumman: > > Is every artwork unimprovable?< > > This, too, is a category error: the kind of thing we mean when we say > we "improve" a car is different from the kind of thing we mean when > we say we "improve" a poem. Evasion. Answer the question. > Marcus Bales: > > >You might as well contend that > > > modern prayer is better than ancient prayer because we have better > > > praying techniques and better gods. > > Bob Grumman: > > Since no one is privy to the mind of God or the gods, we can't judge > > prayers, assuming we judge them on their ability to persuade whomever they > > are addressed to though I believe prayers are more complex than that.< > > But Bob -- prayers are man-made things! If you assert that poems and > cars are the same kind of thing you have to accept that prayers and > cars are the same kinds of things, too. Since it's clear that prayers > and cars, though both man-made, are different KINDS of thing, it > seems as if your insistence that any man-made thing is sufficiently > like any other man-made thing to be evaluated and judged in a > technological progression, then if we cannot reasonably say that > prayer has progressed technologically over the ages then you have to > examine your premise. See above. > There are different kinds of man-made things, and not all of them are > amenable to technological progress. Define a prayer for me, and I would be able to show that they have improved. Which doesn't mean I will, because it would take way too long, would be trivial, and would not convince you. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 23:00:00 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:00:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E9AF363.12252.2192463@localhost> Message-ID: <003701c302fb$1c45f720$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > In my view, using stupid rhetorical tricks is a sign of a bad > > character.< > > Marcus Bales; > > > Well, then, why do you use them? > > Bob Grumman: > > I don't. > > You do. > > Bob Grumman: > > I don't ALWAYS have time for silly arguments like this one. I get caught up > > with them, anyway, because they are VERY EASY to participate in, unlike the > > arguments I haven't time for (which are usually just as silly as this one).<< > > Well actually I find it easier to think and write about interesting > and important issues than the kind of crappy ad hominem stuff you > nearly always throw at your interlocutors. > > Bob Grumman: > > ... because you aren't worth trying to > > discuss an important issue with ...<< > > This is ad hominem, Bob -- just another example of the rhetorical > trickery you employ instead of addressing the merits of an issue. > > Marcus Bales Okay! We now definitely have a winner! Congratulations, Marcus. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 23:07:22 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:07:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9A8D1C.11275.89911F@localhost> <007a01c302c6$6c307100$3154fea9@j1c1k6> <022401c302c7$e7ad2f20$5b15e589@devbox> <00df01c302cd$f3ada2e0$3154fea9@j1c1k6> <02ae01c302d2$d942d790$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <004301c302fc$22bafdc0$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> SNIP to> It's much more interesting when one can talk about specifics. But it still > comes down to "I like it" and "Well I don't" since I can keep listing those > works that I think are "the best" (as I did with novels already in this > post) and you will just come back with telling me how I am wrong... I don't > see much way around that, since we are unlikely to convince one another. > c > Chris Lott I agree. Besides, Marcus has me tired out. So I'll bow out. Without any of the hard feelings against you that I have against Marcus. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 23:17:46 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:17:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00ac01c30270$f7e860a0$40e6fea9@j1c1k6> <01c501c3029a$82e8a650$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00e501c302ce$aab7da00$3154fea9@j1c1k6> <035f01c302d9$4aeeab20$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <005001c302fd$97533520$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> > On Monday, April 14, 2003 1:41 PM, Bob Grumman > spake thusly: > > > In a way. I think approaching my works as poems helps, though. They > > are quite paraphrasable, and the mathematical apparati can be > > considered punctuation. > > Fair enough. But that is why they seem like the beginnings of what I would > call a poem. When I look at something like Mathemaku #6a, I can certainly > create a narrative in my head that will involve, among other things, camping > with my father and reading Mark Twain... the poem provides an entree, but > all the poem's work is what hasn't been followed-through with on the page. Did you consider the image of a sphere with the radius of boyhood? Or the possible significance of a term partly in a parenthesis and partly out, or partly multipliable and partly beyond multiplication? I might add that the poem is part of a set of three inter-related poems--though I feel it can stand by itself. > So, it reminds me a bit of those picture frames where you can stick your > head through and become a cowboy or a soldier. I can make a story of that > picture, as I can create a poem from a paraphrase based on the words and > symbols, but that would be my poem, not yours :) That's what I hope every person confronting the work does--at first. >This is tied to what I > consider an effective poem, though. > > >> I don't see what makes it poetry, > > > > The use of words in non-prose that are intended to cause aesthetic > > pleasure. > > I guess my quibble would be that I define poetry in a somewhat more directed > fashion. A definition would have to involve syntax, and I don't want to be > confined to narrative, so I would say "coherence", etc. And could a poem > have only letters and symbols? Can a math formula be a poem? How about a > recursive textual element? > Each of these have their beauties in one form or another, and each are > poetic, but I guess I have certain lines I draw so that my categories are > sensical to me. A poem might consist of just letters and symbols, I think--but the letters and/or symbols, for me, would have to suggest words. I would call the math formula "informrature" or intended to produce facts rather than beauty, so not a poem. I don't know what you mean by a "recursive textual element." --Bob G. > >> Ironically enough, I am a big fan of haiku, though mostly > >> traditional haiku. I find a lot of the more modern attempts, > >> particularly Beat and American Haiku to be lacking that essential > >> spark that I think you are trying to describe in your work. > > > > I agree. Of course, many traditional haiku lack it, too. Even some > > of Basho's--at least in translation. > > agreed. No one's perfect, a translator makes it even less likely :) > > c > -- > Chris Lott From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 23:20:02 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:20:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00ac01c30270$f7e860a0$40e6fea9@j1c1k6> <01c501c3029a$82e8a650$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00e501c302ce$aab7da00$3154fea9@j1c1k6> <035f01c302d9$4aeeab20$5b15e589@devbox> <036701c302d9$e9b296e0$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <005601c302fd$e8061500$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> > Incidentally, in Mathemaku 6a -- is the parentheses supposed to fall before, > on top of, or after the "a" in "island" ?? > > c > -- > Chris Lott Right through it--and its placement is what makes the poem, for me. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 23:22:06 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:22:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel References: Message-ID: <006c01c302fe$31b06b60$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> > Let's see if I've got this right. > > On 11 Apr 2003 at 22:24, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> ... > > Then Chris Lott replied: > > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > And Marcus Bales interjected: > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> [snip] > > > Is that about where things stand right now? You're as out of it as ever, David. Marcus interjected: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<< Try to pay attention --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 23:22:55 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:22:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel References: <00c201c302f1$14b3d6d0$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <007401c302fe$5136cb00$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> See, David--even Zimmerman is more on top of things than you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Zimmerman" To: Cc: "Daniel Zimmerman" Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 9:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > DZ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 9:41 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel > > > > Let's see if I've got this right. > > > > On 11 Apr 2003 at 22:24, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>> > > >>>>>>>> ... > > > > Then Chris Lott replied: > > > > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > And Marcus Bales interjected: > > > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> [snip] > > > > > > Is that about where things stand right now? > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 14 23:24:37 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 23:24:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogres References: Message-ID: <007c01c302fe$8be204e0$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> Poor wittle feller. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 10:11 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogres > On a number of sites featuring anti-war poems I've seen mentioned or quoted > the following poem by W.S. Merwin, evidently written to order for one of the > recent poetical gatherings in protest of the war in Iraq. > > The poem has evidently attracted some real admiration. So I wonder if > anyone might be interested in engaging the old question of political poetry > by way of a look at Merwin's poem. I find it a pretty unimpressive piece, > myself, though I guess the ending does take an interesting turn. Still, it > seems to take rather a long while to get to that ending, and rhetoric like > "the frauds in office" strikes me as generic at best. > > > > Ogres > > All night waking to the sound > of light rain falling softly > through the leaves in the quiet > valley below the window > and to Paula lying here > asleep beside me and to > the murmur beside the bed > of the dogs' snoring like small > waves coming ashore I > am amazed at the fortune > of this moment in the whole > of the dark this unspoken > favor while it is with us > this breathing peace and then I > think of the frauds in office > at this instant devising > their massacres in my name > what part of me could they have > come from were they made of my > loathing itself and dredged from > the bitter depths of my shame > > --W. S. Merwin > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Apr 15 00:13:31 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel Message-ID: <20030415041332.395F740AA@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 15 00:35:38 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 00:35:38 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogres Message-ID: <26.37f632ee.2bcce61a@cs.com> In a message dated 4/14/2003 9:21:25 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > On a number of sites featuring anti-war poems I've seen mentioned or quoted > the following poem by W.S. Merwin, evidently written to order for one of > the > recent poetical gatherings in protest of the war in Iraq. > > The poem has evidently attracted some real admiration. So I wonder if > anyone might be interested in engaging the old question of political poetry > by way of a look at Merwin's poem. I find it a pretty unimpressive piece, > myself, though I guess the ending does take an interesting turn. Still, it > seems to take rather a long while to get to that ending, and rhetoric like > "the frauds in office" strikes me as generic at best. > > > > Ogres > > All night waking to the sound > of light rain falling softly > through the leaves in the quiet > valley below the window > and to Paula lying here > asleep beside me and to > the murmur beside the bed > of the dogs' snoring like small > waves coming ashore I > am amazed at the fortune > of this moment in the whole > of the dark this unspoken > favor while it is with us > this breathing peace and then I > think of the frauds in office > at this instant devising > their massacres in my name > what part of me could they have > come from were they made of my > loathing itself and dredged from > the bitter depths of my shame > > --W. S. Merwin > It sounds to me like a guy sleeping more or less peacefully in Maui but occasionally thinking he should be worried about the starving orphans in China. Most of Merwin's stuff I've read in recent years is of the I-got-mine-but-I-still-have-a-conscience school of poetry. I recall one of his poems lamenting the soullessness of airports (while he was jetting home from a reading tour). This sort of stuff doesn't interest me at all. Sorry to sound crabby, but it rubs me the wrong way. Go back to something like "The Last One" for a real poem. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 15 01:24:52 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:24:52 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel References: Message-ID: <003301c3030f$5b59cb30$6501a8c0@TRS80> On Monday, April 14, 2003 5:41 PM, David Graham spake thusly: > Let's see if I've got this right. > That's about right. Marcus and Bob are fighting. I thought my discussion with Bob was reasonable enough, and I am glad to be exposed to some new things. Heavens forbid we stop talking about war and Halliburton and other such poetic topics :) c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 15 01:30:27 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:30:27 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00ac01c30270$f7e860a0$40e6fea9@j1c1k6> <01c501c3029a$82e8a650$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00e501c302ce$aab7da00$3154fea9@j1c1k6> <035f01c302d9$4aeeab20$5b15e589@devbox> <005001c302fd$97533520$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <004401c30310$23228210$6501a8c0@TRS80> On Monday, April 14, 2003 7:17 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > Did you consider the image of a sphere with the radius of boyhood? > Or the possible significance of a term partly in a parenthesis and > partly out, or partly multipliable and partly beyond multiplication? > I might add that the poem is part of a set of three inter-related > poems--though I feel it can stand by itself. yes, I assumed that the sphere defining the boys childhood, considered with some nostalgia, was not large enough (given the volume formula) to contain all the memories and feelings he had thinking back on those times. Which three are inter-related and can I find them on the web? 6a, 6b, 6c? > > That's what I hope every person confronting the work does--at first. I'm not sure what else they can do, since there isn't much else to go on. > I don't know what you mean by a "recursive textual element." I meant like Hofstader's (sp?) wordplay in books like Metamagical Themas... I can't bring one to mind at the moment, but they are little plays on words and texts, particularly focusing on recursion, that serve as great hooks to think philosophically. They are fine triggers. I wouldn't call them poems because they can serve this function, but they do work. The label is a matter of convenience anyway, and as such isn't that important to me *except* when it is used as a valuative statement about something that doesn't deserve that elevation. c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 15 01:33:30 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:33:30 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00ac01c30270$f7e860a0$40e6fea9@j1c1k6> <01c501c3029a$82e8a650$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00e501c302ce$aab7da00$3154fea9@j1c1k6> <035f01c302d9$4aeeab20$5b15e589@devbox> <036701c302d9$e9b296e0$5b15e589@devbox> <005601c302fd$e8061500$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <004701c30310$9073bcd0$6501a8c0@TRS80> On Monday, April 14, 2003 7:20 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: >> Incidentally, in Mathemaku 6a -- is the parentheses supposed to fall >> before, on top of, or after the "a" in "island" ?? > > Right through it--and its placement is what makes the poem, for me. Ah good. I saw it two different ways on the net (probably because one of the versions was in HTML, rather than an image) and it is indeed important, in my opinion. Now, given that I can (thanks to all that wonderful training in lit crit and philosophy-- all hail Derrida :) spin an amazing gossamer of meaning out of the slightest piece of text, and given that I believe that you spend a lot of time and energy crafting your work, do pieces which people just spin out while doodling with hardly any thought and then call it poetry, which can be similarly explicated, deserve the same kind of respect? In other words, without knowing the author, but given something that I can similarly devise deep and wonderful meaning for, how can one tell good from bad in this genre? c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 15 01:40:19 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:40:19 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogres References: <26.37f632ee.2bcce61a@cs.com> Message-ID: <007301c30311$84575870$6501a8c0@TRS80> Yay, more bad war poetry. There certainly isn't enough of that. The ending question would be much more powerful were it not tacked onto the end of a "I need to write a poem about this because it is important but, really, I'm not particularly affected by events" kind of poem. c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 15 01:41:55 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 21:41:55 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel References: <20030415041332.395F740AA@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <009b01c30311$bd123400$6501a8c0@TRS80> On Monday, April 14, 2003 8:13 PM, CobbCoStudioArts spake thusly: > ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ > > Bob Oh yes, I apologize most profusely for taking time on this list for discussing genres of new styles of poetry and distinguishing what makes a poem in this contemporary age. I should have stuck to the tried and true topics: talking about Rumsfeld and the conduct of troops in Iraq and Chalabi and maybe squeeze in some time to post snippets from George W. Bush's speeches. Somehow I was tricked into thinking this was a list called new-poetry. Damn email client must be screwing around with my addresses again. c -- Chris Lott From elemenope at icubed.com Mon Apr 14 14:03:31 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 02:03:31 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] 5. Re: Re: Re: Re: "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be far behind?" (Marcus Bales) (Marcus Bales). (Marcus Bales) (Marcus Bales) In-Reply-To: <200304142054.h3EKs3ST004798@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304142054.h3EKs3ST004798@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > > >I have given you the name and address of the man you need to confront: > >> >>> >>>>Charles E. Dominy >>>>Vice President >>>>Government Affairs, Halliburton Corporation >>>>1150 18th St NW Ste 200 >>>>Washington, DC 20036 >>USA If you don't confront him, the one who should be confronted, and you limit your squawking to this line, then you really aren't sincere in your accusation. He knows the answer to your question. His response will either be truthful and forthright or it will be the opposite. I am betting that you won't set out on this course because you prefer to dwell in your own prejudice against the Administration. (You never set out against the Clintons, by the way, which is my point about your faux muckracking.) At this point all you have is an accusation. Where is your evidence? How closely have you examined the federal contracts and their history in this matter? Have you examined the Federal Recording Offices files regarding Halliburton? It doesn't seem that you have; it seems that you have concocted the possibility of an interlinking between Cheney, Halliburton and this contract -- but you have no evidence. For you, an accusation backed up by cynical and hateful emotion against innocent people whose party you despise is enough to prove to yourself that your accusation is an apriori fact. [Your attitude and posture changed on this line recently, but for no apparent reason. No one was talking about Halliburton or the 2000 Election. Abruptly you began to make these gratuitous attacks. Why? Could it have had anything to do with a recent trip to Pittsburgh?] What you would have Mr. Grumman be in the eyes of the world, you in turn will become if you don't contact Mr. Charles E. Dominy in the nation's capital and confront him with your blatant accusation of flagrant GRAFT! Mr. Bales, the longer you procastinate the longer it will be until you will be instructed regarding your illusions about the 2000 Election. It is in your interest, therefore, to get to the bottom of your confusion regarding Halliburton quickly. It isn't good to dwell in darkness especially when the way to the light is being shown to you. Take it. Call Mr. Dominy. He is in the Washington, D.C. phonebook. Call him.. Write him. Extract yourself from your illusion with courage. > > >> So, let's get to the bottom of your allegations...<< > >Well, my allegation is that the Halliburton deal looks bad on the >face of it: a no-bid deal given to the corporation that the VP >formerly headed. Perhaps the central question is one of whether to >the victors go the spoils. If you believe they do, then you may not >think that a no-bid deal to the VP's former company is a bad thing. > >Marcus Bales > -- From sellwein at hotmail.com Tue Apr 15 03:56:00 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 03:56:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogres Message-ID: Personally I haven't read many impressive anti-war poems, especially on the Poets Against War website. They do offer up the poems as sacrifice to any who wish to use them and offer t-shirts for those who need clothes with a written statement. - Deborah Russell *********** ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 10:11 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogres > On a number of sites featuring anti-war poems I've seen mentioned or quoted > the following poem by W.S. Merwin, evidently written to order for one of the > recent poetical gatherings in protest of the war in Iraq. > > The poem has evidently attracted some real admiration. So I wonder if > anyone might be interested in engaging the old question of political poetry > by way of a look at Merwin's poem. I find it a pretty unimpressive piece, > myself, though I guess the ending does take an interesting turn. Still, it > seems to take rather a long while to get to that ending, and rhetoric like > "the frauds in office" strikes me as generic at best. > > > > Ogres > > All night waking to the sound > of light rain falling softly > through the leaves in the quiet > valley below the window > and to Paula lying here > asleep beside me and to > the murmur beside the bed > of the dogs' snoring like small > waves coming ashore I > am amazed at the fortune > of this moment in the whole > of the dark this unspoken > favor while it is with us > this breathing peace and then I > think of the frauds in office > at this instant devising > their massacres in my name > what part of me could they have > come from were they made of my > loathing itself and dredged from > the bitter depths of my shame > > --W. S. Merwin _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 15 04:11:35 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 04:11:35 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin Message-ID: <15b.1e488676.2bcd18b7@cs.com> In a message dated 4/14/2003 9:21:25 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > On a number of sites featuring anti-war poems I've seen mentioned or quoted > the following poem by W.S. Merwin, evidently written to order for one of > the > recent poetical gatherings in protest of the war in Iraq. > > The poem has evidently attracted some real admiration. So I wonder if > anyone might be interested in engaging the old question of political poetry > by way of a look at Merwin's poem. I find it a pretty unimpressive piece, > myself, though I guess the ending does take an interesting turn. Still, it > seems to take rather a long while to get to that ending, and rhetoric like > "the frauds in office" strikes me as generic at best. > > > > Ogres > > All night waking to the sound > of light rain falling softly > through the leaves in the quiet > valley below the window > and to Paula lying here > asleep beside me and to > the murmur beside the bed > of the dogs' snoring like small > waves coming ashore I > am amazed at the fortune > of this moment in the whole > of the dark this unspoken > favor while it is with us > this breathing peace and then I > think of the frauds in office > at this instant devising > their massacres in my name > what part of me could they have > come from were they made of my > loathing itself and dredged from > the bitter depths of my shame > > --W. S. Merwin > It sounds to me like a guy sleeping more or less peacefully in Maui but occasionally thinking he should be worried about the starving orphans in China. Most of Merwin's stuff I've read in recent years is of the I-got-mine-but-I-still-have-a-conscience school of poetry. I recall one of his poems lamenting the soullessness of airports (while he was jetting home from a reading tour). This sort of stuff doesn't interest me at all. Sorry to sound crabby, but it rubs me the wrong way. Go back to something like "The Last One" for a real poem. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 15 06:44:17 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 06:44:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel References: <003301c3030f$5b59cb30$6501a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <006b01c3033b$f8247b00$62bcfea9@j1c1k6> > On Monday, April 14, 2003 5:41 PM, David Graham spake > thusly: > > > Let's see if I've got this right. > > > > That's about right. Marcus and Bob are fighting. I thought my discussion > with Bob was reasonable enough, and I am glad to be exposed to some new > things. > > Heavens forbid we stop talking about war and Halliburton and other such > poetic topics :) > > c I agree with the above. --Bob G. > Chris Lott > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 15 07:02:57 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:02:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00ac01c30270$f7e860a0$40e6fea9@j1c1k6> <01c501c3029a$82e8a650$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00e501c302ce$aab7da00$3154fea9@j1c1k6> <035f01c302d9$4aeeab20$5b15e589@devbox> <005001c302fd$97533520$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> <004401c30310$23228210$6501a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <007501c3033e$93a49b80$62bcfea9@j1c1k6> > On Monday, April 14, 2003 7:17 PM, Bob Grumman > spake thusly: > > > Did you consider the image of a sphere with the radius of boyhood? > > Or the possible significance of a term partly in a parenthesis and > > partly out, or partly multipliable and partly beyond multiplication? > > I might add that the poem is part of a set of three inter-related > > poems--though I feel it can stand by itself. > > yes, I assumed that the sphere defining the boys childhood, considered with > some nostalgia, was not large enough (given the volume formula) to contain > all the memories and feelings he had thinking back on those times. Its size is in proportion to whatever the person experiencing the poem thinks "boyhood" means--which could include nostalgia about it and other things, I would hope. I (and possibly only I, the author) think of the verbal terms in my mathemaku as being what they denote, so "boyhood" would equal a very large thing--which the formula then give volume to. Multiply a few details of a camping trip by dawn (a very loaded term, for me), and you make boyhood three-dimensional. Or so I hope. > Which three are inter-related and can I find them on the web? 6a, 6b, 6c? Yes, 6abc. Not on web, but I'll try to put them somewhere where you can look at them. > > That's what I hope every person confronting the work does--at first. > > I'm not sure what else they can do, since there isn't much else to go on. I feel you're only really taking in their words--and perhaps not giving them the weight you might if they were by Basho. On the other hand, this poem is based on a few events in my boyhood that are high-wonderful in my memory, so it's easy for me to be fond of it. On the third hand, I feel similarly about other brief poems that are conceptual in what seems to me the same way. As described in my essay on "mnmlst poems" at http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm > > I don't know what you mean by a "recursive textual element." > > I meant like Hofstader's (sp?) wordplay in books like Metamagical Themas... > I can't bring one to mind at the moment, but they are little plays on words > and texts, particularly focusing on recursion, that serve as great hooks to > think philosophically. They are fine triggers. I wouldn't call them poems > because they can serve this function, but they do work. > > The label is a matter of convenience anyway, and as such isn't that > important to me *except* when it is used as a valuative statement about > something that doesn't deserve that elevation. > > c > -- > Chris Lott My position has never been that a poem that is new or does something new is automatically superior to everything old although I do believe that any poem that does something significantly new is valuable even if it fails, and even if what it does that is new turns out to be valueless. A failed experiment tells us more than a successful 50th repeat of an old experiment. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 15 07:11:36 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:11:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00ac01c30270$f7e860a0$40e6fea9@j1c1k6> <01c501c3029a$82e8a650$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00e501c302ce$aab7da00$3154fea9@j1c1k6> <035f01c302d9$4aeeab20$5b15e589@devbox> <036701c302d9$e9b296e0$5b15e589@devbox> <005601c302fd$e8061500$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> <004701c30310$9073bcd0$6501a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <007d01c3033f$c946f700$62bcfea9@j1c1k6> > >> Incidentally, in Mathemaku 6a -- is the parentheses supposed to fall > >> before, on top of, or after the "a" in "island" ?? > > > > Right through it--and its placement is what makes the poem, for me. > > Ah good. I saw it two different ways on the net (probably because one of the > versions was in HTML, rather than an image) and it is indeed important, in > my opinion. > > Now, given that I can (thanks to all that wonderful training in lit crit and > philosophy-- all hail Derrida :) spin an amazing gossamer of meaning out of > the slightest piece of text, and given that I believe that you spend a lot > of time and energy crafting your work, do pieces which people just spin out > while doodling with hardly any thought and then call it poetry, which can be > similarly explicated, deserve the same kind of respect? In other words, > without knowing the author, but given something that I can similarly devise > deep and wonderful meaning for, how can one tell good from bad in this > genre? > > c > -- > Chris Lott It would depend on whether the text supports your wonderful explication. And then on all the things one looks for in a successful poem, such as, for me, connection to archetypal meanings the way "dawn," for instance, automatically does but "knapsack" doesn't necessarily, and "j:xyu" can't--unless arbitrarily (in the view of most people). You tell good from bad in this genre the same way you should in any genre of poetry, finally. And I don't have time to get into details--as I believe you will understand but Marcus would not. --Bob G. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Apr 15 08:48:00 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 05:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel Message-ID: <20030415124800.AB46211EC4@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 15 09:27:23 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 09:27:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel In-Reply-To: References: <3E9AF679.1976.225315F@localhost> Message-ID: <3E9BD07B.18083.27DFD@localhost> On 14 Apr 2003 at 20:41, David Graham wrote: > Let's see if I've got this right. > > On 11 Apr 2003 at 22:24, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > >>>>> > >>>>>>>> ... > > Then Chris Lott replied: > > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > And Marcus Bales interjected: > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> [snip] > > > Is that about where things stand right now? Actually it was Bob and I replying and Chris interjecting, but aside from that, Mrs Lincoln, you've got it right. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 15 10:13:21 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:13:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <002701c302fa$52690640$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9BDB41.20586.2C92F9@localhost> Bob Grumman: > No, I'm one of those stupid people who expresses opinions even without being > sure. Otherwise, I wouldn't get to express many opinions.< Once again a cheap rhetorical trick: trying to substitute "not being sure" for "don't know enough". There's a significant difference between the two, Bob, and while "not being sure" is certainly not a hindrance to expressing an opinion, "don't know enough" might well be. Since it was YOU who said you "don't know enough" to express an opinion on the issue at hand, my suggestion was that you might want to withdraw your argument. > > Marcus Bales: > > > > is not help, it's a hindrance, in fields where > > > > subjective judgments make up the field. > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > Fields are worthless to the extent that they consist of subjective > > > judgements.< Marcus Bales: > > What's the objective measure of that assertion? Bob Grumman: > Astrology's predictive value versus astronomy's. That's not an objective measure, Bob of the assertion that a field is "worthless to the extent its subjective" in this context, Bob, because you are yourself'trying to taxonomize a field, poetry, in which subjective judgments are very nearly everything -- which means your endeavor is like trying to taxonomize astrology! Poetry has no predictive value, Bob; it's not a science, it's an art. It's a pseudo-scientific endeavor to try to taxonomize an art because the arts are volitionally made things -- there is no necessary connection between them. A poem might start off rhyming and end up with a mathematical symbol, for example. It might not rhyme at all until the final lines. It might have a strict meter for a bit and no meter at all further on, or vice versa. There is no necessity for the poet (or any other artist) to adhere to artistic categories in the way there is a necessity for organisms to adhere to biological categories. A bird can't decide to be a fish, or partly a fish, but an artist can make his or her artwork cross boundaries irrespective of the taxonomist's categories. Nor does your taxonomy have any useful predictive power: a poet might be writing one kind of poetry when you find her and another by the time you've managed to categorize that poetry. Your notion that you're creating a taxonomy in order to give readers a chance to find the types of poetry they like is really just another way to create an anthology. It's just as much pseudo-science to try to talk about a taxonomy of poetry as it is to try to talk about a taxonomy of the effects of the stars on volitional human behavior. Bob Grumman: > I accept the standard objective definition [of being human]...<< Well, what is that definition, in your view? Do you mean "a member of the species _Homo sapiens_"? or "a person"? or something else? Bob Grumman: > ... Is there a > necessary and measurable progression in the art of any entity or whatever > that you define as a human being from the age of one month to the age of > sixty?< It depends on how you define "being human". Is a Downs syndrome child human in the same way that a child without Downs syndrome is human? Are you saying that there is no difference in their humanity between Saddam Hussein and Mother Theresa? Is "being human" for you merely a matter of the taxonomic category "member of the species Homo sapiens"? > > Bob Grumman: > > > ... it's a common sense claim that some modern painter, having many > > > more ways of making pictures than Manet had must surely outdo him. Marcus Bales: > > This is the assertion that art is merely technological -- that > > computer graphics art is necessarily better than brushwork on canvas, > > and that's better than its predecessor, and that better than its, in > > an endless regression through the technological changes in art > > through the ages. It doesn't matter to you, it appears, whether it's > > Chagall or Churchill, a painting in the 20th Century has got to be > > better, in your view, than one from the 19th! Bob Grumman: > ...The idea is that the person with the computer can ALSO use a brush--and > every other tool discovered for making art--and subject, and way of doing > things, etc., etc.--including, now, animation.<< But they can't -- at least in my practical experience of hiring artists, and talking to them, they can't. They certainly can't use a brush as well as Manet did -- they just aren't practicing with it enough to match his technical facility with that tool. That's a compelling argument against your notion that a contemporary artist's brushwork must be better than Manet's because the contemporary artist can use a computer, because without a good deal of practice and not a little talent the contemporary artist's brushwork is simply not as good as Manet's. You're trying to argue that access to technology creates better art, when what makes art is not technology but artists. Making art is not the same as bein' a steel-drivin' man, Bob -- that a machine can drive spikes in the railroad faster than John Henry is not an argument that someone at a computer can paint better pictures than Manet. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 15 11:30:24 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:30:24 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00ac01c30270$f7e860a0$40e6fea9@j1c1k6> <01c501c3029a$82e8a650$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00e501c302ce$aab7da00$3154fea9@j1c1k6> <035f01c302d9$4aeeab20$5b15e589@devbox> <005001c302fd$97533520$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> <004401c30310$23228210$6501a8c0@TRS80> <007501c3033e$93a49b80$62bcfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <011a01c30363$f3409f10$6501a8c0@TRS80> On Tuesday, April 15, 2003 3:02 AM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: >> Which three are inter-related and can I find them on the web? 6a, >> 6b, 6c? > > Yes, 6abc. Not on web, but I'll try to put them somewhere where you > can look at them. That would be cool. Or point me to the most convenient way to get them in printed form. That would be better. > I feel you're only really taking in their words--and perhaps not > giving them the weight you might if they were by Basho. Give me time Bob. I've had 20 years or so to become enamored of Haiku. I just met you and you want to hop in bed so quickly? :) > On the third hand, I feel similarly about other brief poems that are > conceptual in what seems to me the same way. As described in my > essay on "mnmlst poems" at > > http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm Aesthetics are a funny thing. I'll take a look at this essay. > My position has never been that a poem that is new or does something > new is automatically superior to everything old although I do believe > that any poem that does something significantly new is valuable even > if it fails, and even if what it does that is new turns out to be > valueless. A failed experiment tells us more than a successful 50th > repeat of an old experiment. I guess. Sometimes. Depending on what you are looking for. Is that ambivalent enough? I would generally rather read a great poem written in a 100 year old form than a failed experiment written in a 1 hour old way. But my aesthetic tends towards a certain kind of experience in which the characteristic of newness is of a different measure and composition than your own. But I am sincere in my efforts to try to understand new and different conceptions (the rewards are just too great when things "click") even if I can't necessarily escape even the prejudices and biases I am aware of... c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 15 11:34:49 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:34:49 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel References: <20030415124800.AB46211EC4@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <013401c30364$916b7f20$6501a8c0@TRS80> On Tuesday, April 15, 2003 4:48 AM, CobbCoStudioArts spake thusly: > Chris, > > All of the threads that you have mentioned have become well > exhausted, including the "Re: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More > GioiaEmanuel." Yeah, well, you caught me at a sensitive moment, and considering how tired I have become of the war threads, I shouldn't balk at ths protests. I am feeling rewarded by my part of the GioiaEmanual thread, having caught a small taste of a form/genre which I had before thoroughly discounted. But then I am selfish and really pay attention only to those parts of the thread in which I am directly involved. I haven't received Cafe mail for many months, so have no idea what is going on there... but it seemed my only route to try to locate the person in question. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzc -- Chris Lott From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Apr 15 11:56:50 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:56:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Merwin Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F54@mail.ripon.edu> W. S. Merwin has written a number of poems I like very much, and I think he's a wizard of a translator. But throughout his career he's never been highest on my list among his generation, and I've often wondered why not. I think it has something to do with the relative lack of descriptive texture in so many of his poems. My taste runs more toward a realist like Larkin, who is much more presentational. Possibly it's Merwin's tendency toward flat descriptive texture that makes a poem like "Ogres" so unconvincing to me. In a political poem, I require more than generic dramatic strokes such as: I am amazed at the fortune of this moment in the whole of the dark this unspoken favor while it is with us this breathing peace I just nod off during such moments. And then, when he makes a political "statement", I'm simply unconvinced, unmoved: the frauds in office at this instant devising their massacres in my name Still, when the right subject presents itself, Merwin's somewhat wispy texture can work quite effectively. Here's what I would say is a successful poem. Yesterday My friend says I was not a good son you understand I say yes I understand he says I did not go to see my parents very often you know and I say yes I know even when I was living in the same city he says maybe I would go there once a month or maybe even less I say oh yes he says the last time I went to see my father I say the last time I saw my father he says the last time I saw my father he was asking me about my life how I was making out and he went into the next room to get something to give me oh I say feeling again the cold of my father's hand the last time he says and my father turned in the doorway and saw me look at my wristwatch and he said you know I would like you to stay and talk with me oh yes I say but if you are busy he said I don't want you to feel that you have to just because I'm here I say nothing he says my father said maybe you have important work you are doing or maybe you should be seeing somebody I don't want to keep you I look out the window my friend is older than I am he says and I told my father it was so and I got up and left him then you know though there was nowhere I had to go and nothing I had to do --W. S. Merwin. *Opening the Hand*. 1983. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 13:55:58 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 10:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion Message-ID: <20030415175558.27902.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Howdy folks, Today in my Am Lit course, we were talking about Philip Levine's poetry, and got way off in left field in our discussion of "They Feed They Lion." To be quite honest with you all--as I was with my students--the poem has always mystified me. One of my students referred to it as an "incantation" while others turned up their noses at, and I quote, "stupid junk that doesn't make sense." We all noted the similiarity between it and the Whitman piece "Out of the Cradle Endlessly Rocking." I read through the various critical interpretations of the piece at Cary Nelson's site, but I still didn't come to a definitive read. My question to you all: how do you read this piece? A great number of you on this list are academics--have you ever taught this poem in a sophomore-level lit course? Thanks for any insights. The text of the poem is below. They Feed They LionPhilip Levine Out of burlap sacks, out of bearing butter, Out of black bean and wet slate bread, Out of the acids of rage, the candor of tar, Out of creosote, gasoline, drive shafts, wooden dollies, They Lion grow. Out of the gray hills Of industrial barns, out of rain, out of bus ride, West Virginia to Kiss My Ass, out of buried aunties, Mothers hardening like pounded stumps, out of stumps, Out of the bones' need to sharpen and the muscles' to stretch, They Lion grow. Earth is eating trees, fence posts, Gutted cars, earth is calling in her little ones, "Come home, Come home!" From pig balls, From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 15 13:46:54 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:46:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: 4 poems by Jean Follain Message-ID: Dog with Schoolboys For fun the schoolboys crack the ice along a path next to the railroad they are heavily clothed in dark old woolens belted with beat leather The dog that follows them no longer has a bowl to eat from he is old for he is their age. Life A child is born into a great landscape Half a century later he's nothing but a dead soldier This was the man we saw appear and then set on the ground a heavy sack of apples two or three of which rolled out sound among a world's sounds where birds sang on the stone threshold. End of a Century A fly walked on the initial of a sheet heavy with silence they woke the child a thirty-first of December to see the end of a century worn out faces softened in the glimmer of flames; gathers, laces, braids would last for a few months yet the miser had opened his coffer and feasted his eyes a thousand years later the rain still falls on a village. The Evening Suit Over the eroded eath of a cooled landscape an intrepid walker whom charity has provided with an old evening suit feels death on the way but not for some time yet, a thread has pulled loose from the cloth. Donor of the black garment the architect will bring his bridge to completion; muzzle to earth at his feet an animal rests unaware of having been born. --Jean Follain, tr. W. S. Merwin (1, 2, 4) and Keith Waldrop (3) 1, 2 fr. *Territoires* 1953 3, 4 fr. *Appareil de la terre* 1964 3, 4 in *Transparence of the World: Poems by Jean Follain*, tr. Merwin Atheneum (1969?) 1-4 in *The Random House Book of Twentieth-Century French Poetry* ed., Paul Auster [New York: Random House,1982] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From sellwein at hotmail.com Tue Apr 15 14:06:51 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:06:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion Message-ID: I am quite curious, as well as amused. Why do you not address this question to Phillip? - Deborah Howdy folks, Today in my Am Lit course, we were talking about Philip Levine's poetry, and got way off in left field in our discussion of "They Feed They Lion." To be quite honest with you all--as I was with my students--the poem has always mystified me. One of my students referred to it as an "incantation" while others turned up their noses at, and I quote, "stupid junk that doesn't make sense." We all noted the similiarity between it and the Whitman piece "Out of the Cradle Endlessly Rocking." I read through the various critical interpretations of the piece at Cary Nelson's site, but I still didn't come to a definitive read. My question to you all: how do you read this piece? A great number of you on this list are academics--have you ever taught this poem in a sophomore-level lit course? Thanks for any insights. The text of the poem is below. They Feed They LionPhilip Levine Out of burlap sacks, out of bearing butter, Out of black bean and wet slate bread, Out of the acids of rage, the candor of tar, Out of creosote, gasoline, drive shafts, wooden dollies, They Lion grow. Out of the gray hills Of industrial barns, out of rain, out of bus ride, West Virginia to Kiss My Ass, out of buried aunties, Mothers hardening like pounded stumps, out of stumps, Out of the bones' need to sharpen and the muscles' to stretch, They Lion grow. Earth is eating trees, fence posts, Gutted cars, earth is calling in her little ones, "Come home, Come home!" From pig balls, From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 15 14:09:52 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:09:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion In-Reply-To: <20030415175558.27902.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As for me, I don't particularly need to come to "definitive reads," and think that students and readers in general tend to be oversold on "making sense." Some poems may indeed be "stupid junk" but if that's only because they don't "make sense" it's sometimes helpful to point out that there are many, many things in their/our lives that are interesting or pleasurable or important that "don't make sense"--at least in the sense that we don't understand them. A healthy dollop of surrealism sometimes helps, such as this little poem by Paul Hoover (sometimes), though it's not the *first* thing I'd hit them with. I've had freshmen who've seemed to learn a lot from this. Hal Poems We Can Understand If a monkey drives a car down a colonnade facing the sea and the palm trees to the left are tin we don't understand it. We want poems we can understand. We want a god to lead us, renaming the flowers and trees, color-coding the scene, doing bird calls for guests. We want poems we can understand, no sullen drunks making passes next to an armadillo, no complex nothingness amounting to a song, no running in and out of walls on the dry tongue of a mouse, no bludgeoness, no girl, no sea that moves with all deliberate speed, beside itself and blue as water, inside itself and still, no lizards on the table becoming absolute hands. We want poetry we can understand, the fingerprints on mother's dress, pain of martyrs, scientists. Please, no rabbit taking a rabbit out of a yellow hat, no tattooed back facing miles of desert, no wind. We don't understand it. --Paul Hoover Today in my Am Lit course, we were talking about Philip Levine's poetry, and got way off in left field in our discussion of "They Feed They Lion." To be quite honest with you all--as I was with my students--the poem has always mystified me. One of my students referred to it as an "incantation" while others turned up their noses at, and I quote, "stupid junk that doesn't make sense." We all noted the similiarity between it and the Whitman piece "Out of the Cradle Endlessly Rocking." I read through the various critical interpretations of the piece at Cary Nelson's site, but I still didn't come to a definitive read. My question to you all: how do you read this piece? A great number of you on this list are academics--have you ever taught this poem in a sophomore-level lit course? Thanks for any insights. The text of the poem is below. They Feed They Lion Philip Levine Out of burlap sacks, out of bearing butter, Out of black bean and wet slate bread, Out of the acids of rage, the candor of tar, Out of creosote, gasoline, drive shafts, wooden dollies, They Lion grow. Out of the gray hills Of industrial barns, out of rain, out of bus ride, West Virginia to Kiss My Ass, out of buried aunties, Mothers hardening like pounded stumps, out of stumps, Out of the bones' need to sharpen and the muscles' to stretch, They Lion grow. Earth is eating trees, fence posts, Gutted cars, earth is calling in her little ones, "Come home, Come home!" From pig balls, From the ferocity of pig driven to holiness, From the furred ear and the full jowl come The repose of the hung belly, from the purpose They Lion grow. From the sweet glues of the trotters Come the sweet kinks of the fist, from the full flower Of the hams the thorax of caves, From "Bow Down" come "Rise Up," Come they Lion from the reeds of shovels, The grained arm that pulls the hands, They Lion grow. From my five arms and all my hands, From all my white sins forgiven, they feed, From my car passing under the stars, They Lion, from my children inherit, From the oak turned to a wall, they Lion, From they sack and they belly opened And all that was hidden burning on the oil-stained earth They feed they Lion and he comes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Apr 15 14:29:22 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:29:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed Levine Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F58@mail.ripon.edu> You can listen to Levine talk a little about this poem at the following site (requires RealPlayer): http://www.ibiblio.org/ipa/levine/sound/lion-comm.ram Levine identifies the structural inspiration for the poem not in Whitman but Smart. His comments won't help explicate the poem's details, but he does give some context. Here's my explication, in the form of yet another parody-- They Feed They Face --for Philip Levine Out of shopping cart, out of brownbagged bottle, Out of Food Mart and Save-Way, Out of deli passion, three martini lunch, Out of cellophane, boxtop, tin can, pantry shelf, They Face grow. Out of the split seams Of golfing trowsers, out of bulge, out of burp, "Bring it up sideways, it might be a piano," out of pack-it-in, Belly settling like mulch, out of mulch, Out of the mouth's need to eat and the intestine's fuck-you, They Face grow. From my belt loops and all my chins, From all my roughage daily, they feed, From my nose-bag of the soul, They Face, from my calories swell, From the chili bean turned to music, they Face, From they Big Mac and Whopper Burger revealed And all that was deep fried on the drive-in earth, They Feed they Face and it grow. --David Graham. *Poultry: A Magazine of Voice*. Vol. 1, #1. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: Jeff Newberry > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 12:55 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion > > Howdy folks, > > Today in my Am Lit course, we were talking about Philip Levine's poetry, > and got way off in left field in our discussion of "They Feed They Lion." > To be quite honest with you all--as I was with my students--the poem has > always mystified me. One of my students referred to it as an > "incantation" while others turned up their noses at, and I quote, "stupid > junk that doesn't make sense." We all noted the similiarity between it > and the Whitman piece "Out of the Cradle Endlessly Rocking." > From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Apr 15 14:33:15 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [>>>] More GioiaEmanuel Message-ID: <20030415183315.75AAF43A6@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 15 15:07:29 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:07:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion Message-ID: <16c.1d311756.2bcdb271@cs.com> In a message dated 4/15/2003 1:00:04 PM Central Daylight Time, jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: > > I read through the various critical interpretations of the piece at Cary > Nelson's site, but I still didn't come to a definitive read. My question > to you all: how do you read this piece? A great number of you on this > list are academics--have you ever taught this poem in a sophomore-level lit > course? Thanks for any insights. > > The text of the poem is below. > > They Feed They Lion > Philip Levine > > Out of burlap sacks, out of bearing butter, > Out of black bean and wet slate bread, > Out of the acids of rage, the candor of tar, > Out of creosote, gasoline, drive shafts, wooden dollies, > They Lion grow. > > > > Out of the gray hills > Of industrial barns, out of rain, out of bus ride, > West Virginia to Kiss My Ass, out of buried aunties, > Mothers hardening like pounded stumps, out of stumps, > Out of the bones' need to sharpen and the muscles' to stretch, > They Lion grow. > > > Earth is eating trees, fence posts, > Gutted cars, earth is calling in her little ones, > "Come home, Come home!" From pig balls, > From the ferocity of pig driven to holiness, > From the furred ear and the full jowl come > The repose of the hung belly, from the purpose > They Lion grow. > > > From the sweet glues of the trotters > Come the sweet kinks of the fist, from the full flower > Of the hams the thorax of caves, > From "Bow Down" come "Rise Up," > Come they Lion from the reeds of shovels, > The grained arm that pulls the hands, > They Lion grow. > > > From my five arms and all my hands, > From all my white sins forgiven, they feed, > From my car passing under the stars, > They Lion, from my children inherit, > From the oak turned to a wall, they Lion, > From they sack and they belly opened > And all that was hidden burning on the oil-stained earth > They feed they Lion and he comes. > > > > I've always thought it was a response to the Detroit riots of the sixties. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Apr 15 16:10:36 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:10:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: 4 poems by Jean Follain References: Message-ID: <3E9C673C.30059FEE@earthlink.net> Hey, thanks, Hal. Those frenched my fries. (Canola oil, of course) - Jim Halvard Johnson wrote: > > Dog with Schoolboys > > For fun the schoolboys crack the ice > along a path > next to the railroad > they are heavily clothed > in dark old woolens > belted with beat leather > The dog that follows them > no longer has a bowl to eat from > he is old > for he is their age. > > Life > > A child is born > into a great landscape > Half a century later > he's nothing but a dead soldier > This was the man we saw appear > and then set on the ground > a heavy sack of apples > two or three of which rolled out > sound among a world's sounds > where birds sang > on the stone threshold. > > End of a Century > > A fly walked on the initial > of a sheet heavy with silence > they woke the child > a thirty-first of December > to see the end of a century > worn out faces > softened in the glimmer of flames; > gathers, laces, braids > would last for a few months yet > the miser had opened his coffer > and feasted his eyes > a thousand years later > the rain still falls > on a village. > > The Evening Suit > > Over the eroded eath > of a cooled landscape > an intrepid walker > whom charity has provided > with an old evening suit > feels death on the way > but not for some time yet, > a thread has pulled loose from the cloth. > Donor of the black garment > the architect will bring > his bridge to completion; > muzzle to earth at his feet > an animal rests > unaware of having been born. > > --Jean Follain, tr. W. S. Merwin (1, 2, 4) and Keith Waldrop (3) > > 1, 2 fr. *Territoires* 1953 > 3, 4 fr. *Appareil de la terre* 1964 > 3, 4 in *Transparence of the World: Poems by Jean Follain*, tr. Merwin > Atheneum (1969?) > 1-4 in *The Random House Book of Twentieth-Century French Poetry* > ed., Paul Auster [New York: Random House,1982] > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 15 16:29:29 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:29:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] do you stand with book-burners too? Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030415152859.011a7738@mail.ilstu.edu> http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=397350 From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 15 16:34:23 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 16:34:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: 4 poems by Jean Follain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My type daemon bit an out of the first line of this one. Here 'tis amended. Hal { The Evening Suit { { Over the eroded earth { of a cooled landscape { an intrepid walker { whom charity has provided { with an old evening suit { feels death on the way { but not for some time yet, { a thread has pulled loose from the cloth. { Donor of the black garment { the architect will bring { his bridge to completion; { muzzle to earth at his feet { an animal rests { unaware of having been born. { { --Jean Follain, tr. W. S. Merwin (1, 2, 4) and Keith Waldrop (3) { { 1, 2 fr. *Territoires* 1953 { 3, 4 fr. *Appareil de la terre* 1964 { 3, 4 in *Transparence of the World: Poems by Jean Follain*, tr. Merwin { Atheneum (1969?) { 1-4 in *The Random House Book of Twentieth-Century French Poetry* { ed., Paul Auster [New York: Random House,1982] { { { Hal { { Halvard Johnson { =============== { email: halvard at earthlink.net { website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 16:55:38 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:55:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030415205538.74280.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Could be that I don't know Philip, and that he isn't subscribed to this list--as far as I know. Jeff Newberry Deborah Russell wrote:I am quite curious, as well as amused. Why do you not address this question to Phillip? - Deborah Howdy folks, Today in my Am Lit course, we were talking about Philip Levine's poetry, and got way off in left field in our discussion of "They Feed They Lion." To be quite honest with you all--as I was with my students--the poem has always mystified me. One of my students referred to it as an "incantation" while others turned up their noses at, and I quote, "stupid junk that doesn't make sense." We all noted the similiarity between it and the Whitman piece "Out of the Cradle Endlessly Rocking." I read through the various critical interpretations of the piece at Cary Nelson's site, but I still didn't come to a definitive read. My question to you all: how do you read this piece? A great number of you on this list are academics--have you ever taught this poem in a sophomore-level lit course? Thanks for any insights. The text of the poem is below. They Feed They LionPhilip Levine Out of burlap sacks, out of bearing butter, Out of black bean and wet slate bread, Out of the acids of rage, the candor of tar, Out of creosote, gasoline, drive shafts, wooden dollies, They Lion grow. Out of the gray hills Of industrial barns, out of rain, out of bus ride, West Virginia to Kiss My Ass, out of buried aunties, Mothers hardening like pounded stumps, out of stumps, Out of the bones' need to sharpen and the muscles' to stretch, They Lion grow. Earth is eating trees, fence posts, Gutted cars, earth is calling in her little ones, "Come home, Come home!" From pig balls, From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Tue Apr 15 17:09:20 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 03 17:09:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems We Can Understand Message-ID: <200304152111.h3FLBFbU070272@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> ***** Reply to your note of: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:30:06 -0400 ************* But this is perfectly understandable! Richard >> >> Poems We Can Understand >> >>If a monkey drives a car >>down a colonnade facing the sea >>and the palm trees to the left are tin >>we don't understand it. >> >>We want poems we can understand. >>We want a god to lead us, >>renaming the flowers and trees, >>color-coding the scene, >> >>doing bird calls for guests. >>We want poems we can understand, >>no sullen drunks making passes >>next to an armadillo, no complex nothingness >> >>amounting to a song, >>no running in and out of walls >>on the dry tongue of a mouse, >>no bludgeoness, no girl, no sea that moves >> >>with all deliberate speed, beside itself >>and blue as water, inside itself and still, >>no lizards on the table becoming absolute hands. >>We want poetry we can understand, >> >>the fingerprints on mother's dress, >>pain of martyrs, scientists. >>Please, no rabbit taking a rabbit >>out of a yellow hat, no tattooed back >> >>facing miles of desert, no wind. >>We don't understand it. >> >>--Paul Hoover From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 17:33:01 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed Levine In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F58@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <20030415213301.86529.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> David, I laughed aloud when I read this. For all the kicking around that old Levine gets, he often deserves it. This is everything a parody should be--very nice. I may even read it to my class. Side note--are there any poems that you have difficulty teaching but still do (teach them) because you like them, despite what others may say? Jeff Newberry "Graham, David" wrote:You can listen to Levine talk a little about this poem at the following site (requires RealPlayer): http://www.ibiblio.org/ipa/levine/sound/lion-comm.ram Levine identifies the structural inspiration for the poem not in Whitman but Smart. His comments won't help explicate the poem's details, but he does give some context. Here's my explication, in the form of yet another parody-- They Feed They Face --for Philip Levine Out of shopping cart, out of brownbagged bottle, Out of Food Mart and Save-Way, Out of deli passion, three martini lunch, Out of cellophane, boxtop, tin can, pantry shelf, They Face grow. Out of the split seams Of golfing trowsers, out of bulge, out of burp, "Bring it up sideways, it might be a piano," out of pack-it-in, Belly settling like mulch, out of mulch, Out of the mouth's need to eat and the intestine's fuck-you, They Face grow. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 15 17:29:30 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:29:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9BDB41.20586.2C92F9@localhost> Message-ID: <00a501c30398$78a075c0$d351fea9@j1c1k6> > you are yourself'trying to taxonomize a field, poetry, in > which subjective judgments are very nearly everything -- which means > your endeavor is like trying to taxonomize astrology! > Poetry has no predictive value, Bob; it's not a science, it's an art. > It's a pseudo-scientific endeavor to try to taxonomize an art because > the arts are volitionally made things -- there is no necessary > connection between them. A poem might start off rhyming and end up > with a mathematical symbol, for example. Can you taxonomize buildings? One might start off being a residence and turn into a church. > Nor does your taxonomy have any useful predictive power: It's not supposed to have. > a poet might > be writing one kind of poetry when you find her and another by the > time you've managed to categorize that poetry. My taxonomy is of poems, not poets. >Your notion that > you're creating a taxonomy in order to give readers a chance to find > the types of poetry they like You forget that my list of schools is not my taxonomy. My taxonomy is at my site. I also discuss it in my interview. It has little to do with giving readers a chance to find the types of poetry they like. > is really just another way to create an > anthology. My list of schools would be useful for someone who wanted to create an anthology that covered the range of poetry being composed now. My taxonomy would be less useful for that purpose because it is not a list of schools. >It's just as much pseudo-science to try to talk about a > taxonomy of poetry as it is to try to talk about a taxonomy of the > effects of the stars on volitional human behavior. A taxonomy that classifies anything whatever on the basis of its objective qualities (meter or no meter, graphics or no graphics, etc.) is scientific, whether valuably so or not. > Bob Grumman: > > I accept the standard objective definition [of being human]...<< > > Well, what is that definition, in your view? Do you mean "a member > of the species _Homo sapiens_"? Of course. >or "a person"? I'm not sure anymore, that term has been used so stupidly, so widely. >or something else? homo sapiens > Bob Grumman: > > ... Is there a > > necessary and measurable progression in the art of any entity or whatever > > that you define as a human being from the age of one month to the age of > > sixty?< > > It depends on how you define "being human". Is a Downs syndrome > child human in the same way that a child without Downs syndrome is > human? Are you saying that there is no difference in their humanity > between Saddam Hussein and Mother Theresa? Is "being human" for you > merely a matter of the taxonomic category "member of the species Homo > sapiens"? What kind of arguing is this, Marcus? You don't want to say that human beings making art improve as artists over time, so you bring in trvial exceptions. > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > ... it's a common sense claim that some modern painter, having many > > > > more ways of making pictures than Manet had must surely outdo him. > > Marcus Bales: > > > This is the assertion that art is merely technological -- that > > > computer graphics art is necessarily better than brushwork on canvas, > > > and that's better than its predecessor, and that better than its, in > > > an endless regression through the technological changes in art > > > through the ages. It doesn't matter to you, it appears, whether it's > > > Chagall or Churchill, a painting in the 20th Century has got to be > > > better, in your view, than one from the 19th! > > Bob Grumman: > > ...The idea is that the person with the computer can ALSO use a brush--and > > every other tool discovered for making art--and subject, and way of doing > > things, etc., etc.--including, now, animation.<< > > But they can't -- at least in my practical experience of hiring > artists, and talking to them, they can't. They certainly can't use a > brush as well as Manet did -- they just aren't practicing with it > enough to match his technical facility with that tool. That's a > compelling argument against your notion that a contemporary artist's > brushwork must be better than Manet's because the contemporary artist > can use a computer, because without a good deal of practice and not a > little talent the contemporary artist's brushwork is simply not as > good as Manet's. I'm saying someone wanting to be a great painter can learn to use a brush as well as Manet, assuming equal gifts, AND learn to do things with a computer. And learn from Manet and all the painters who followed him. Etc. > You're trying to argue that access to technology creates better art, > when what makes art is not technology but artists. Making art is not > the same as bein' a steel-drivin' man, Bob -- that a machine can > drive spikes in the railroad faster than John Henry is not an > argument that someone at a computer can paint better pictures than > Manet. > Marcus Bales You rarely respresent my positions accurately, Marcus. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 15 17:40:58 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:40:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion References: <20030415175558.27902.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a601c30398$7c001b80$d351fea9@j1c1k6> I've only skimmed this poem, but is it not a fairly straight-forward white conscience poem? "They lion" is lower-class black for "their lion." --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 1:55 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion Howdy folks, Today in my Am Lit course, we were talking about Philip Levine's poetry, and got way off in left field in our discussion of "They Feed They Lion." To be quite honest with you all--as I was with my students--the poem has always mystified me. One of my students referred to it as an "incantation" while others turned up their noses at, and I quote, "stupid junk that doesn't make sense." We all noted the similiarity between it and the Whitman piece "Out of the Cradle Endlessly Rocking." I read through the various critical interpretations of the piece at Cary Nelson's site, but I still didn't come to a definitive read. My question to you all: how do you read this piece? A great number of you on this list are academics--have you ever taught this poem in a sophomore-level lit course? Thanks for any insights. The text of the poem is below. They Feed They Lion Philip Levine Out of burlap sacks, out of bearing butter, Out of black bean and wet slate bread, Out of the acids of rage, the candor of tar, Out of creosote, gasoline, drive shafts, wooden dollies, They Lion grow. Out of the gray hills Of industrial barns, out of rain, out of bus ride, West Virginia to Kiss My Ass, out of buried aunties, Mothers hardening like pounded stumps, out of stumps, Out of the bones' need to sharpen and the muscles' to stretch, They Lion grow. Earth is eating trees, fence posts, Gutted cars, earth is calling in her little ones, "Come home, Come home!" From pig balls, From the ferocity of pig driven to holiness, From the furred ear and the full jowl come The repose of the hung belly, from the purpose They Lion grow. From the sweet glues of the trotters Come the sweet kinks of the fist, from the full flower Of the hams the thorax of caves, From "Bow Down" come "Rise Up," Come they Lion from the reeds of shovels, The grained arm that pulls the hands, They Lion grow. From my five arms and all my hands, From all my white sins forgiven, they feed, From my car passing under the stars, They Lion, from my children inherit, From the oak turned to a wall, they Lion, From they sack and they belly opened And all that was hidden burning on the oil-stained earth They feed they Lion and he comes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 15 18:00:27 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:00:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] looting purpose Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030415165954.01254bd8@mail.ilstu.edu> http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/iraq-a15.shtml From anny.ballardini at tin.it Tue Apr 15 18:02:52 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 00:02:52 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion References: <20030415175558.27902.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009f01c3039a$c5a6dd80$131c2dd5@anny> I find it an intersting poem. In my way of understanding this poem, "They" Feed "themselves (or their kids) into Lions". They becomes the Earth eating itself. They is us, the ones who are able to survive. They is them - those who are outside, and bother us. An enormous machine devouring itself. There is sadness in his voice, a moment of reflection, From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 15 18:17:45 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion In-Reply-To: <00a601c30398$7c001b80$d351fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <20030415221745.32926.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Okay Bob--a fairly straight-forward white conscience poem? Based on your read that "They lion" is lower-class black dialect? Forgive me, but this seems overly simplistic for what I believe is a complex piece of writing. Maybe I'm just not as attuned to the work as you are. Forgive me. Jeff Newberry Bob Grumman wrote:I've only skimmed this poem, but is it not a fairly straight-forward white conscience poem? "They lion" is lower-class black for "their lion." --Bob G.----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 1:55 PMSubject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion Howdy folks, Today in my Am Lit course, we were talking about Philip Levine's poetry, and got way off in left field in our discussion of "They Feed They Lion." To be quite honest with you all--as I was with my students--the poem has always mystified me. One of my students referred to it as an "incantation" while others turned up their noses at, and I quote, "stupid junk that doesn't make sense." We all noted the similiarity between it and the Whitman piece "Out of the Cradle Endlessly Rocking." I read through the various critical interpretations of the piece at Cary Nelson's site, but I still didn't come to a definitive read. My question to you all: how do you read this piece? A great number of you on this list are academics--have you ever taught this poem in a sophomore-level lit course? Thanks for any insights. The text of the poem is below. They Feed They LionPhilip Levine Out of burlap sacks, out of bearing butter, Out of black bean and wet slate bread, Out of the acids of rage, the candor of tar, Out of creosote, gasoline, drive shafts, wooden dollies, They Lion grow. Out of the gray hills Of industrial barns, out of rain, out of bus ride, West Virginia to Kiss My Ass, out of buried aunties, Mothers hardening like pounded stumps, out of stumps, Out of the bones' need to sharpen and the muscles' to stretch, They Lion grow. Earth is eating trees, fence posts, Gutted cars, earth is calling in her little ones, "Come home, Come home!" From pig balls, From daisyf1 at juno.com Tue Apr 15 21:26:59 2003 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:26:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: They Feed They Lion Message-ID: <20030415.212703.-662699.0.daisyf1@juno.com> Whenever I have a student that complains something doesn't make sense, I always say I'm glad people feel comfortable enough in my class to admit they don't like things that I like, and then start a discussion about why a writer might not want to make conventional sense... Daisy From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 15 21:33:09 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:33:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion Message-ID: <7f.35c7be1f.2bce0cd5@cs.com> In a message dated 4/15/2003 5:19:35 PM Central Standard Time, jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: > > Okay Bob--a fairly straight-forward white conscience poem? Based on your > read that "They lion" is lower-class black dialect? > > Forgive me, but this seems overly simplistic for what I believe is a > complex piece of writing. > > Maybe I'm just not as attuned to the work as you are. Forgive me. > > Jeff Newberry > I agree with Bob on "they lion." It's ghetto dialect. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Apr 15 21:48:17 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:48:17 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: They Feed They Lion References: <20030415.212703.-662699.0.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <3E9CB660.5286A987@earthlink.net> Daisy Fried wrote: > > Whenever I have a student that complains something doesn't make sense, I > always say I'm glad people feel comfortable enough in my class to admit > they don't like things that I like, and then start a discussion about why > a writer might not want to make conventional sense... What is "conventional sense"? - Bob Grumman & Marcus Bales From JforJames at aol.com Tue Apr 15 21:56:02 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:56:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion Message-ID: <132.1dca05a3.2bce1232@aol.com> In a message dated 4/15/2003 5:52:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > I've only skimmed this poem, but is it not a fairly straight-forward white > conscience poem? "They lion" is lower-class black for "their lion." > Bob, as the inveterate taxonomist, I must ask you what other poems are so easily cubby-holed in "white conscience poem"? (Because I really want to read them, all.) Beyond that question, what other poems fit neatly, elbow to elbow, with "They Feed..."? Head long (anaphora propeelled) and verging on pure poetry, this is Levine really getting into the muck of his central theme (an overriding regard for the travails of the working class and the socially oppressed) and leaving the telling narrative vignette (his usual m.o.) in the dust. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Apr 15 22:01:30 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:01:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jean Follain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Merwin's translations of Jean Follain have been important to me for many years. I highly recommend his collection of Follain poems, *Transparence of the World*, long out of print, which I just learned is being re-issued this month by Copper Canyon. Interesting to compare translations. Not having any French since 8th grade, I can't judge these on fidelity to the originals, but Merwin's versions win out as poems in English, I always think. Here's Merwin's "The Student's Dog": The Students' Dog The students play at breaking the ice on a path near the railroad they have been wrapped up warm in old dark woolens and belted in with bossed leather the dog that follows them no longer has a bowl for his late meals he is old their age. And here is the one Hal posted, whose translator I am not sure of--it's not Merwin, anyway. Waldrop? > Dog with Schoolboys > > For fun the schoolboys crack the ice > along a path > next to the railroad > they are heavily clothed > in dark old woolens > belted with beat leather > The dog that follows them > no longer has a bowl to eat from > he is old > for he is their age. > ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From sellwein at hotmail.com Tue Apr 15 22:06:53 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:06:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion Message-ID: I can only hope that one day, people will rake through my work like this. :) (crossing my fingers, wishing on a star) In a message dated 4/15/2003 5:52:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > I've only skimmed this poem, but is it not a fairly straight-forward white > conscience poem? "They lion" is lower-class black for "their lion." > Bob, as the inveterate taxonomist, I must ask you what other poems are so easily cubby-holed in "white conscience poem"? (Because I really want to read them, all.) Beyond that question, what other poems fit neatly, elbow to elbow, with "They Feed..."? Head long (anaphora propeelled) and verging on pure poetry, this is Levine really getting into the muck of his central theme (an overriding regard for the travails of the working class and the socially oppressed) and leaving the telling narrative vignette (his usual m.o.) in the dust. Finnegan Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 15 22:12:44 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:12:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion References: <20030415221745.32926.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ed01c303bd$ab76d5a0$d351fea9@j1c1k6> Okay Bob--a fairly straight-forward white conscience poem? Based on your read that "They lion" is lower-class black dialect? Forgive me, but this seems overly simplistic for what I believe is a complex piece of writing. It's mildly complex, but still fairly straight-forward. The last stanzas confused me, but--as I say--I just skimmed the poem. Maybe I'm just not as attuned to the work as you are. Forgive me. Jeff Newberry I don't know how attuned I am. I had trouble with "they lion" until I suddenly realized it was slang. The rest of the poem then seemed clear--but probably I exaggerated the straight-forwardness of part for the whole. Sam G.'s notion that it was inspired by the Detroit riots makes sense. Was it written at the right time? Has Levine written any other poems about blacks? Any using ghetto dialect? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 15 22:19:44 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:19:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman Interview References: <3E96F892.24945.E28E97@localhost> <010101c3009b$a2840dc0$23a9fea9@j1c1k6> <1050116239.3e97808f1693d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <007601c300ea$07a7f1a0$9bc8fea9@j1c1k6> <00cd01c30244$5c47d8f0$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00ac01c30270$f7e860a0$40e6fea9@j1c1k6> <01c501c3029a$82e8a650$6601a8c0@TRS80> <00e501c302ce$aab7da00$3154fea9@j1c1k6> <035f01c302d9$4aeeab20$5b15e589@devbox> <005001c302fd$97533520$a6dafea9@j1c1k6> <004401c30310$23228210$6501a8c0@TRS80> <007501c3033e$93a49b80$62bcfea9@j1c1k6> <011a01c30363$f3409f10$6501a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <010c01c303be$a65713e0$d351fea9@j1c1k6> > On Tuesday, April 15, 2003 3:02 AM, Bob Grumman > spake thusly: > > >> Which three are inter-related and can I find them on the web? 6a, > >> 6b, 6c? > > > > Yes, 6abc. Not on web, but I'll try to put them somewhere where you > > can look at them. > > That would be cool. Or point me to the most convenient way to get them in > printed form. That would be better. They're in a little chapbook published by Tel-let, which is run by John Martone. I've e.mailed him to find out if he has any copies of it. It was published in 1994, I was shocked to find out. I no longer have any copies. Worse, my copies of b and c are poor, too poor (typographically) to put on the web. I haven't made decent copies of them yet. So it may be a while before I can put them on the web. > > I feel you're only really taking in their words--and perhaps not > > giving them the weight you might if they were by Basho. > > Give me time Bob. I've had 20 years or so to become enamored of Haiku. I > just met you and you want to hop in bed so quickly? :) > > > On the third hand, I feel similarly about other brief poems that are > > conceptual in what seems to me the same way. As described in my > > essay on "mnmlst poems" at > > > > http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm > > Aesthetics are a funny thing. I'll take a look at this essay. Thanks. > > My position has never been that a poem that is new or does something > > new is automatically superior to everything old although I do believe > > that any poem that does something significantly new is valuable even > > if it fails, and even if what it does that is new turns out to be > > valueless. A failed experiment tells us more than a successful 50th > > repeat of an old experiment. > > I guess. Sometimes. Depending on what you are looking for. Is that > ambivalent enough? I would generally rather read a great poem written in a > 100 year old form than a failed experiment written in a 1 hour old way. Fortunately, there's often time to do both. >But my aesthetic tends towards a certain kind of experience in which the > characteristic of newness is of a different measure and composition than > your own. > > But I am sincere in my efforts to try to understand new and different > conceptions (the rewards are just too great when things "click") even if I > can't necessarily escape even the prejudices and biases I am aware of... > > c > -- > Chris Lott That's how I am with a lot of music. And some poetry, even some you also have trouble with like Stein's. --Bob G. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From sellwein at hotmail.com Tue Apr 15 22:29:31 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:29:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion - Detroit Riots Message-ID: The poem is supposed to about the Detroit riots, at least Phillip Levine thinks that is so, but maybe even he isn't sure. Poets usually don't have a clue what their work is about, or if it will leave a lasting impression, especially after it's been critiqued. A poet told me once, he never understood how deep his thoughts were until he read it in a newspaper. :) - Deborah Russell Okay Bob--a fairly straight-forward white conscience poem? Based on your read that "They lion" is lower-class black dialect? Forgive me, but this seems overly simplistic for what I believe is a complex piece of writing. It's mildly complex, but still fairly straight-forward. The last stanzas confused me, but--as I say--I just skimmed the poem. Maybe I'm just not as attuned to the work as you are. Forgive me. Jeff Newberry I don't know how attuned I am. I had trouble with "they lion" until I suddenly realized it was slang. The rest of the poem then seemed clear--but probably I exaggerated the straight-forwardness of part for the whole. Sam G.'s notion that it was inspired by the Detroit riots makes sense. Was it written at the right time? Has Levine written any other poems about blacks? Any using ghetto dialect? --Bob G. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 15 22:31:10 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 22:31:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] They Feed They Lion References: <132.1dca05a3.2bce1232@aol.com> Message-ID: <012801c303c0$40626420$d351fea9@j1c1k6> In a message dated 4/15/2003 5:52:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: I've only skimmed this poem, but is it not a fairly straight-forward white conscience poem? "They lion" is lower-class black for "their lion." Bob, as the inveterate taxonomist, I must ask you what other poems are so easily cubby-holed in "white conscience poem"? You'll no doubt club me like Marcus does for this, but I don't know. They aren't my kind of poem, so all I remember is that I'm sure I've read some. But maybe I'm thinking of white-conscience essays. No matter, even if there are no poems like it, it's still a white-conscience poem. As for how I would classify it, it's just a plaintext poem in my taxonomy. Since I'm much more concerned as a taxonomist with techniques not subject matter I have not yet worked out the subclasses of plaintext poetry (i.e., technically conventional free verse). Or is it metrical and even rhyming? I don't have a copy now, and--as I said--I just skimmed it. If metrical, it's songmode poetry, which I also have not broken down into smaller categories. (Because I really want to read them, all.) Beyond that question, what other poems fit neatly, elbow to elbow, with "They Feed..."? Head long (anaphora propeelled) and verging on pure poetry, this is Levine really getting into the muck of his central theme (an overriding regard for the travails of the working class and the socially oppressed) and leaving the telling narrative vignette (his usual m.o.) in the dust. Finnegan He does pretty vividly capture a milieu. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 16 01:24:12 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 00:24:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] do you stand with these then? Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030416002249.012afe90@mail.ilstu.edu> >American soldiers fire on political rally, killing at >least 10 civilians >By Patrick Cockburn in northern Iraq >http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=397631 > >16 April 2003 > >American soldiers killed at least 10 Iraqis and wounded >dozens of others yesterday when they reportedly fired on a >political rally in Mosul. "There are perhaps 100 wounded >and 10 or 12 dead," said Ayad al-Ramadhani, director of >the Republican Hospital in Mosul. From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue Apr 15 15:59:10 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 15:59:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogres References: <00db01c302f8$6d5e7e00$6d94c044@MULDER> Message-ID: <000101c30405$370fdd40$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> I actually like Dan's version quite a lot. ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Zimmerman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Cc: Daniel Zimmerman Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 10:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ogres Do the tighten up: Surveillance for WSM officials devise massacres without knowing my though in my name where in the name of god did they find it Daniel Zimmerman ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 10:11 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogres > On a number of sites featuring anti-war poems I've seen mentioned or quoted > the following poem by W.S. Merwin, evidently written to order for one of the > recent poetical gatherings in protest of the war in Iraq. > > The poem has evidently attracted some real admiration. So I wonder if > anyone might be interested in engaging the old question of political poetry > by way of a look at Merwin's poem. I find it a pretty unimpressive piece, > myself, though I guess the ending does take an interesting turn. Still, it > seems to take rather a long while to get to that ending, and rhetoric like > "the frauds in office" strikes me as generic at best. > > > > Ogres > > All night waking to the sound > of light rain falling softly > through the leaves in the quiet > valley below the window > and to Paula lying here > asleep beside me and to > the murmur beside the bed > of the dogs' snoring like small > waves coming ashore I > am amazed at the fortune > of this moment in the whole > of the dark this unspoken > favor while it is with us > this breathing peace and then I > think of the frauds in office > at this instant devising > their massacres in my name > what part of me could they have > come from were they made of my > loathing itself and dredged from > the bitter depths of my shame > > --W. S. Merwin > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Apr 16 08:08:15 2003 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:08:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: do you stand with these then? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030416080037.00ac2aa0@postoffice.brown.edu> biased reporting = propaganda. this is not the whole story. NY Times has an evenhanded article on what happened, quoting both US military sources & protesters. Your moral superiority is built on false reports. I've covered this phenomenon more than enough on the poetryetc. list, so this is my last post on this thread. Henry Gabriel sent: "American soldiers killed at least 10 Iraqis and wounded >dozens of others yesterday when they reportedly fired on a >political rally in Mosul. "There are perhaps 100 wounded >and 10 or 12 dead," said Ayad al-Ramadhani, director of >the Republican Hospital in Mosul." From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 16 08:19:25 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:19:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: 4 poems by Jean Follain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Correction: The first two of these were translated by Keith Waldrop, the others by Merwin. The documentation below has been corrected now--as has the typo. Hal { Dog with Schoolboys { { For fun the schoolboys crack the ice { along a path { next to the railroad { they are heavily clothed { in dark old woolens { belted with beat leather { The dog that follows them { no longer has a bowl to eat from { he is old { for he is their age. { { { Life { { A child is born { into a great landscape { Half a century later { he's nothing but a dead soldier { This was the man we saw appear { and then set on the ground { a heavy sack of apples { two or three of which rolled out { sound among a world's sounds { where birds sang { on the stone threshold. { { { End of a Century { { A fly walked on the initial { of a sheet heavy with silence { they woke the child { a thirty-first of December { to see the end of a century { worn out faces { softened in the glimmer of flames; { gathers, laces, braids { would last for a few months yet { the miser had opened his coffer { and feasted his eyes { a thousand years later { the rain still falls { on a village. { { { The Evening Suit { { Over the eroded earth { of a cooled landscape { an intrepid walker { whom charity has provided { with an old evening suit { feels death on the way { but not for some time yet, { a thread has pulled loose from the cloth. { Donor of the black garment { the architect will bring { his bridge to completion; { muzzle to earth at his feet { an animal rests { unaware of having been born. { { --Jean Follain, tr. W. S. Merwin (3, 4) and Keith Waldrop (1, 2) { { 1, 2 fr. *Territoires* 1953 { 3, 4 fr. *Appareil de la terre* 1964 { 3, 4 in *Transparence of the World: Poems by Jean Follain*, tr. Merwin { Atheneum (1969?) { 1-4 in *The Random House Book of Twentieth-Century French Poetry* { ed., Paul Auster [New York: Random House,1982] From JackTar at aol.com Wed Apr 16 09:21:34 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:21:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] do you stand with these then? Message-ID: <1e5.6dad40d.2bceb2de@aol.com> In a message dated 4/16/2003 1:26:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > American soldiers fire on political rally, killing at > >least 10 civilians > American soldiers fire on political rally quelling a riot that broke out. 10 dead 60 injured. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 16 08:58:16 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 08:58:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Andre Breton, "Free Union" Message-ID: Can't resist sending you this one today, folks, since Lynda's birthday is the day after tomorrow. Free Union My wife whose hair is a brush fire Whose thoughts are summer lightning Whose waist is an hourglass Whose waist is the waist of an otter caught in the teeth of a tiger Whose mouth is a bright cockade with the fragrance of a star of the first magnitude Whose teeth leave prints like the tracks of white mice over snow Whose tongue is made out of amber and polished glass Whose tongue is a stabbed wafer The tongue of a doll with eyes that open and shut Whose tongue is incredible stone My wife whose eyelashes are strokes in the handwriting of a child Whose eyebrows are nests of swallows My wife whose temples are the slate of greenhouse roofs With steam on the windows My wife whose shoulders are champagne Are fountains that curl from the heads of dolphins under the ice My wife whose wrists are matches Whose fingers are raffles holding the ace of hearts Whose fingers are fresh cut hay My wife with the armpits of martens and beech fruit And Midsummer Night That are hedges of privet and nesting places for sea snails Whose arms are of sea foam and a landlocked sea And a fusion of wheat and a hill Whose legs are spindles In the delicate movements of watches and despair My wife whose calves are sweet with the sap of elders Whose feet are carved initials Keyrings and the feet of steeplejacks who drink My wife whose neck is fine milled barley Whose throat contains the Valley of Gold And encounters in the bed of the maelstrom My wife whose breasts are of the night And are undersea molehills And crucibles of rubies My wife whose breasts are haunted by the ghosts of dew-moistened roses Whose belly is a fan unfolded in the sunlight Is a giant talon My wife with the back of a bird in vertical flight With a back of quicksilver And bright lights My wife whose nape is of smooth worn stone and wet chalk And of a glass slipped through the fingers of someone who has just drunk My wife with the thighs of a skiff That are lustrous and feathered like arrows Stemmed with the light tailbones of a white peacock And imperceptible balance My wife whose rump is sandstone and flax Whose rump is the back of a swan and the spring My wife with the sex of an iris A mine and a platypus With the sex of an alga and old-fashioned candles My wife with the sex of a mirror My wife with eyes full of tears With eyes that are purple armor and a magnetized needle With eyes of savannahs With eyes full of water to drink in prisons My wife with eyes that are forests forever under the ax My wife with eyes that are the equal of water and air and earth and fire --Andr? Breton, tr. David Antin fr. *Claire de terre* (1966) in *The Random House Book of Twentieth-Century French Poetry* ed., Paul Auster [New York: Random House,1982] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 16 09:42:05 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:42:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <00a501c30398$78a075c0$d351fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9D256D.99.459D83@localhost> > > you are yourself trying to taxonomize a field, poetry, in > > which subjective judgments are very nearly everything -- which means > > your endeavor is like trying to taxonomize astrology! ... > > Poetry has no predictive value, Bob; it's not a science, it's an art. > > It's a pseudo-scientific endeavor to try to taxonomize an art because > > the arts are volitionally made things -- there is no necessary > > connection between them. A poem might start off rhyming and end up > > with a mathematical symbol, for example. Bob Grumman: > Can you taxonomize buildings? One might start off being a residence and > turn into a church.<< No, Bob --a taxonomy attempts to create categories to distinguish permanent non-volitional things one from another in an order that is conceptually useful. Thus, an attempt to taxonomize buildings would always be running into the problem that buildings aren't permanent enough and are the product of volitional architectural styles and, as you point out, change their uses according to circumstances that can have nothing to do with their original "taxonomic category", were they to have been put in one. A taxonomy that has a category for "churches that used to be bars but are now residences" is a taxonomy that sounds unusably and tediously complicated. Marcus Bales: > > Nor does your taxonomy have any useful predictive power: Bob Grumman: > It's not supposed to have. Not much of a taxonomy, then, is it. Bob Grumman: > My taxonomy is of poems, not poets.< Well, then, you're going to need predictive power, Bob, or else you're going to be forever re-jiggering your "taxonomy" to include yet another "category", to distinguish between "poems that start off free verse for about 3-7 lines, then rhyme two lines, one pentameter, the other hexameter, followed by 7-13 lines of unrhymed tetrameter, and ending with a haiku-like last 3 lines" and poems that exclude the beginning free verse section, and the like. A taxonomy that has to be constantly re-jiggered to accommodate new things because it hasn't the predictive power to have allowed for new discoveries in the world is worthless. You've got to be able to say that the color of the swan doesn't matter, it's still a swan, or else you don't have a taxonomy, you have a congeries of categories. In short, you can't have a taxonomy of poems because poems are to a taxonomy of poetry what individual organisms are to a taxonomy of biology -- and since poetry itself changes in ways that biology just doesn't change, Bob, you can't really have a taxonomy of poetry at all. The best you can do is to create an anthology based on some principles you elucidate. But to claim that you've got a taxonomy is to claim that you've got a system of categorization that has predictive power: so that when you see an individual organism with a nipple you can say "Aha! That's a mammal!" with a very good chance of being right. Bob Grumman: > My list of schools would be useful for someone who wanted to create an > anthology that covered the range of poetry being composed now. My taxonomy > would be less useful for that purpose because it is not a list of schools.< A taxonomy of poetry is an organized list of schools of poetry, at some point, or it's nothing. Your claim that it's not a list of schools at all is revealing. Bob Grumman: > A taxonomy that classifies anything whatever on the basis of its objective > qualities (meter or no meter, graphics or no graphics, etc.) is scientific, > whether valuably so or not.<< No, Bob -- that's like classifying people by the bumps on their head. It's not scientific because you haven't got a coherent theory of WHY there are bumps on the head, or how those bumps determine, or are determined by, other characteristics. It's pseudo-science: it's using the words of science to try to lend weight to an unscientific hypothesis. Poems don't have "meter or no meter" -- lots of poems have both a regular and an irregular meter -- and the notion of "no meter" seems to indicate that they're not poems at all, but rather something well- known throughout the writing world that you may have heard of called "prose". Poets who write vers libre claim that each poem has an organic form, an organic meter, that fits that poem's unique requirements. They claim that every poem is a unique species of poem, Bob -- a taxonomy of poems or poetry that accepted that theory would have to classify every poem written in free verse as a separate species of poem. Do you accept that theory? If not, why not -- since some, at least, writers of free verse claim that's the theory they use. If you don't accept the theory that the writer claims, whose theory do you accept, and on what grounds do you accept that one instead of the writer's? > > Bob Grumman: > > > I accept the standard objective definition [of being human]...<< Marcus Bales: > > Well, what is that definition, in your view? Do you mean "a member > > of the species _Homo sapiens_"? Bob Grumman: > Of course<< So Mother Theresa, Saddam Hussein, and the Downs syndrome child working at Taco Bell, and the fertilized egg in the womb of a woman are all "human beings" because they are all "members of the species _Homo sapiens_" to you? Bob Grumman: > ... You don't want to say that human > beings making art improve as artists over time, so you bring in trvial > exceptions.< I'm happy to say that human beings making art may improve as artists over time, but I'm not willing to say that anyone who claims to be an artist either is an artist or that they all improve over time. Some people just have no talent for art, whatever they may claim; others have some but reach the limits of their development as artists very early. Some have talent but don't develop it at all. Even among the class of people who have talent and are trying to develop it most reach the limits of their development and simply do not improve thereafter. Some don't get helpful direction and in spite of great talent never do develop as artists in any significant way, or develop into lesser artists than they could have been under other circumstances. It's just not reasonable to say that all human artists all develop all the time to their greatest potential. So, no -- there is no predictable arc to the development of a human being as an artist. They do not develop from birth to 60 in any predictable way, and they do not all improve as they age. Many, in fact, find, as Robert Graves wrote "... a formula for drawing comic rabbits: This formula for drawing comic rabbits paid, So in the end he could not change the tragic habits This formula for drawing comic rabbits made." Bob Grumman: > I'm saying someone wanting to be a great painter can learn to use a > brush as well as Manet, assuming equal gifts, AND learn to do > things with a computer. And learn from Manet and all the painters > who followed him. Etc.<< Well, I think you're just simply, blankly, wrong. The time it takes to learn a technique, to get really good at it, to make it part of your art, requires the kind of assiduous practice that excludes other media, and often even excludes significant portions of what "normal people" would call "human life". The reason Manet was not also a physicist and a dressage rider and the ceo of a mulit-national manufacturing firm and prime minister too, among all the other things he wasn't, is that expertise takes time to acquire and develop and use. You are postulating that people are so much more talented than Manet that they CAN be both a manet-quality painter AND a brilliant computer graphics artist -- and I'm here to tell you that the time it takes to develop manet-quality art skills precludes, for 99% of artists, both manet-quality painting and manet-quality computer graphics. There may be someone who can do it, but only at the sacrifice of some other significant aspect of his or her human life from which the time could be taken to gain manet-quality skill. What you're really claiming is that contemporary artists are so much better at art than dead artists that they can do everything any previous artist ever did, as well as those prior artists ever did it, and still do more with newer tools. But that's just not the case, Bob -- art is not athletics. Mathemaku is not the Fosbury Flop -- it's not a way to get over the same kind of bar, just set higher. Art is a different kind of human endeavor from things such as manufacturing cars and leaping over high-jump bars. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From mbyrne at risd.edu Wed Apr 16 10:12:54 2003 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 10:12:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] do you stand with these then? Message-ID: This sort of riot-quelling used to happen in Northern Ireland a lot. When enough time had passed it sometimes resulted in the prosecution of soldiers. I wonder how much time will have to pass before invading and occupying soldiers are held accountable in Iraq. Mairead >>> JackTar at aol.com 04/16/03 09:24 AM >>> In a message dated 4/16/2003 1:26:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > American soldiers fire on political rally, killing at > >least 10 civilians > American soldiers fire on political rally quelling a riot that broke out. 10 dead 60 injured. From chris at chrislott.org Wed Apr 16 10:40:49 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 06:40:49 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] do you stand with these then? References: Message-ID: <00b801c30426$3087a450$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Wednesday, April 16, 2003 6:12 AM, Mairead Byrne spake thusly: > This sort of riot-quelling used to happen in Northern Ireland a lot. > When enough time had passed it sometimes resulted in the prosecution > of soldiers. I wonder how much time will have to pass before > invading and occupying soldiers are held accountable in Iraq. > Mairead It's unlikely anyone is going to be "held accountable" for firing back when fired upon, particularly in what is still considered a war zone. It's quite difficult to figure out the truth of such events from home, but while it is certainly possible they fired on the protestors only for daring to disparage an Iraqi opposition leader (though one not apparently supported by the US), it seems-- on the grand scale of things-- much less likely than the proposition that they were shot at from an obviously (and perhaps rightly) hostile crowd. c -- Chris Lott From mbyrne at risd.edu Wed Apr 16 11:17:08 2003 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 11:17:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] do you stand with these then? Message-ID: That may be. In Northern Ireland, where the press was considerably more open than the American press, official versions of events shifted over time: armed men became unarmed men or boys, returning fire became initiating fire, self-defense became unprovoked attack. As you say it's hard to know from here. The one thing you can be sure of is that the weight of the American press is behind U.S. forces perspective. Mairead >>> chris at chrislott.org 04/16/03 10:47 AM >>> On Wednesday, April 16, 2003 6:12 AM, Mairead Byrne spake thusly: > This sort of riot-quelling used to happen in Northern Ireland a lot. > When enough time had passed it sometimes resulted in the prosecution > of soldiers. I wonder how much time will have to pass before > invading and occupying soldiers are held accountable in Iraq. > Mairead It's unlikely anyone is going to be "held accountable" for firing back when fired upon, particularly in what is still considered a war zone. It's quite difficult to figure out the truth of such events from home, but while it is certainly possible they fired on the protestors only for daring to disparage an Iraqi opposition leader (though one not apparently supported by the US), it seems-- on the grand scale of things-- much less likely than the proposition that they were shot at from an obviously (and perhaps rightly) hostile crowd. c -- Chris Lott _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From elemenope at icubed.com Tue Apr 15 23:13:05 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 11:13:05 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of Unknowing In-Reply-To: <200304161337.h3GDb2ST019064@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304161337.h3GDb2ST019064@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Merwin has lost his grip, if he ever had it. His poem is a joke, a self-deluded uninformed sad joke. Nietzsche would laugh in his face, as do I. The maudlin rhyme gives the game away. Merwin gets his rain and his latest lover and the Marines get a mouthfull of sand so that Merwin can have this precious nonsense, this selfish self-righteousness. His pseudo "underground" melodrama - - the poems reeks of fraudulence. Absolute rubbish. While Merwin knocked off this piece of slop and cut a check to the communist "anti-war" activists, girls were being raped in front of their families by Saddam's psychoManiacal "get-your-allegiance-right" criminal Gestapo gangster fiends. Donald Rumsfeld's rap poetry - - tossed off in the midst of handling inane questions - - gives us humor, knowledge and maturity in his vain attempt to connect to the coldhearted Leftwing press corps opposition. Merwin's daydream - - a poem by an old man who wants to relive his salad days as a young anti-Vietnam war resister, but both versions of Merwin dwell in hapless political ignorance - - gives us a sentimental trap. A TRAP! If President Bush had listened to Merwin's "conscience," Saddam would still be chortling on his throne. If Merwin's people had successfully stolen the 2000 Election and continued their foreign policy, America, today, would be under unremitting terrorist attack. Indeed, come to think of it, Merwin should be revulsed with himself. He forgets how another killer tyrant, another one of these Asian boho personality powermongers, Anne Waldman's guru, Chogyam Trungpa, tortured and humiliated Merwin and his young paramour at Snowmass, Colorado in 1975 in front of a ratpack of "Buddhist" cultists. Shame, Mr. Merwin, shame! Back to that French nut farm with you. >> >> ----- Original Message -----=20 >> From: "David Graham" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 10:11 PM >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Ogres >> >> >> > On a number of sites featuring anti-war poems I've seen mentioned or = >>quoted >> > the following poem by W.S. Merwin, evidently written to order for = >>one of the >> > recent poetical gatherings in protest of the war in Iraq. >> >=20 >> > The poem has evidently attracted some real admiration. So I wonder = >>if >> > anyone might be interested in engaging the old question of political = >>poetry >> > by way of a look at Merwin's poem. I find it a pretty unimpressive = >>piece, >> > myself, though I guess the ending does take an interesting turn. = >>Still, it >> > seems to take rather a long while to get to that ending, and = >>rhetoric like >> > "the frauds in office" strikes me as generic at best. >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > Ogres >> >=20 >> > All night waking to the sound >> > of light rain falling softly >> > through the leaves in the quiet >> > valley below the window >> > and to Paula lying here >> > asleep beside me and to >> > the murmur beside the bed >> > of the dogs' snoring like small >> > waves coming ashore I >> > am amazed at the fortune >> > of this moment in the whole >> > of the dark this unspoken >> > favor while it is with us >> > this breathing peace and then I >> > think of the frauds in office >> > at this instant devising >> > their massacres in my name >> > what part of me could they have >> > come from were they made of my >> > loathing itself and dredged from >> > the bitter depths of my shame >> >=20 > > --W. S. Merwin -- From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Wed Apr 16 13:54:18 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:54:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baghdad, Flarf etc In-Reply-To: <200304152111.h3FLBFbU070272@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> References: <200304152111.h3FLBFbU070272@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <1050515658.3e9d98ca208ee@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Hi all, a couple unrelated (I think) things: 1. from the "you can't make this stuff up" file: "A Marine officer was reading a copy of Playboy as he defecated into a milk crate." That's from Jon Lee Anderson's story in NYer this week on the "liberation" of Baghdad. Yup, the Shiites are really gonna love having 20,000 American service men in what is now *their* country (60%) for the next ten years. 2. For anyone interested in the poetry formerly known as Flarf, there are some interesting comments and history on Kasey Mohammad's and Gary Sullivan's blogs right now. garysullivan.blogspot.com and limetree.blogspot.com When I have a bit more time perhaps I'll say something in defense of Flarf, as it now seems to have been fully outed. Peace, -m. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 16 15:18:03 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:18:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9D256D.99.459D83@localhost> Message-ID: <005701c3044c$e7a9db00$161dfea9@j1c1k6> Marcus, if you want to argue about my taxonomy, go to it and tell me what's wrong with it, quoting from it to support your arguments rather than saying what you think it is and/or what you think I think it is. I'm not going to reply to your long, not completely stupid last post to this thread. I don't have time to. --Bob G. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Apr 16 15:49:22 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:49:22 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baghdad, Flarf etc References: <200304152111.h3FLBFbU070272@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> <1050515658.3e9d98ca208ee@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <3E9DB3C1.5AB23C56@earthlink.net> O.K., I give up. What is the "poetry formerly known as Flarf"? I couldn't find "history of" at Sullivan's blog and Kasey Mohammad's froze my computer. For the record, I'm impatient with blogs, or any web pages, whose format and type size mimic the Yellow Pages. - Jim mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote: > > Hi all, a couple unrelated (I think) things: > > 1. from the "you can't make this stuff up" file: "A Marine officer was reading > a copy of Playboy as he defecated into a milk crate." That's from Jon Lee > Anderson's story in NYer this week on the "liberation" of Baghdad. Yup, the > Shiites are really gonna love having 20,000 American service men in what is now > *their* country (60%) for the next ten years. > > 2. For anyone interested in the poetry formerly known as Flarf, there are some > interesting comments and history on Kasey Mohammad's and Gary Sullivan's blogs > right now. garysullivan.blogspot.com and limetree.blogspot.com > > When I have a bit more time perhaps I'll say something in defense of Flarf, as > it now seems to have been fully outed. > > Peace, -m. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Wed Apr 16 17:01:49 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:01:49 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] do you stand with these then? References: Message-ID: <006f01c3045b$69108050$5b15e589@devbox> On Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:17 AM, Mairead Byrne spake thusly: > That may be. In Northern Ireland, where the press was considerably > more open than the American press, > official versions of events shifted over time [...] Along those lines, this article was more than a little scary: http://makeashorterlink.com/?G56025D34 c -- Chris Lott From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 16 17:10:33 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:10:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <005701c3044c$e7a9db00$161dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9D8E89.30566.26AA5E@localhost> Bob Grumman wrote: > Marcus, if you want to argue about my taxonomy, go to it and tell me what's > wrong with it, quoting from it to support your arguments rather than saying > what you think it is and/or what you think I think it is.<< My critique of your taxonomy does not inhere in its details; it inheres in the notion itself of a "taxonomy of poetry". What you offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set of categories describing characteristics that are both non-volitional and unchanging on a human scale of time that has predictive power for inductions. Poetry is simply neither non-volitional nor unchanging on a human scale of time, and your list of categories has no predictive power to guide inductions about poetry. To call your set of categories a taxonomy is, in my view, simply a misnomer. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Wed Apr 16 17:10:44 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:10:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <162.1efb1816.2bcf20d4@aol.com> I met a traveler from an antique land Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. Jeffrey Levine In a message dated 4/16/2003 5:05:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > Bob Grumman wrote: > >Marcus, if you want to argue about my taxonomy, go to it and tell me > what's > >wrong with it, quoting from it to support your arguments rather than > saying > >what you think it is and/or what you think I think it is.<< > > My critique of your taxonomy does not inhere in its details; it > inheres in the notion itself of a "taxonomy of poetry". What you > offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set of > categories describing characteristics that are both non-volitional > and unchanging on a human scale of time that has predictive power for > inductions. Poetry is simply neither non-volitional nor unchanging on > a human scale of time, and your list of categories has no predictive > power to guide inductions about poetry. To call your set of > categories a taxonomy is, in my view, simply a misnomer. > > Marcus Bales > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 16 17:28:45 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:28:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <162.1efb1816.2bcf20d4@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E9D92CD.21922.3750FB@localhost> > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > >Marcus, if you want to argue about my taxonomy, go to it and tell me > > what's > > >wrong with it, quoting from it to support your arguments rather than > > saying > > >what you think it is and/or what you think I think it is.<< Marcus Bales: > > My critique of your taxonomy does not inhere in its details; it > > inheres in the notion itself of a "taxonomy of poetry". What you > > offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set of > > categories describing characteristics that are both non-volitional > > and unchanging on a human scale of time that has predictive power for > > inductions. Poetry is simply neither non-volitional nor unchanging on > > a human scale of time, and your list of categories has no predictive > > power to guide inductions about poetry. To call your set of > > categories a taxonomy is, in my view, simply a misnomer. Jeffrey Levine: > I met a traveler from an antique land > Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone > Stand in the desert. OZYMANDIAS REVISITED Morris Bishop I met a traveler from an antique land Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand, Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command Tell that its sculptor well those passions read Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed; And on the pedestal these words appear: 'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings! Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!' Also the names of Emory P. Gray, Mr. and Mrs. Dukes, and Oscar Baer of 17 West 4th Street, Oyster Bay. --Morris Bishop Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Cadaly at aol.com Wed Apr 16 18:03:53 2003 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:03:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poethia Message-ID: <22.38d22451.2bcf2d49@aol.com> Send texts to: Peter Ganick Annabelle Clippinger Jim Leftwich publishes a diversity of poetries and short texts. is an electronic chapbook, sent separ- ately. a new format will start soon, with a text of thomas tay- lor. it will be sent out less freqently. all three formats read submissions in ms- word or text-only format. all submissions will receive an answer. tell your friends and associates about . subscrip- tions are FREE, and there is no reading fee. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 16 18:11:07 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:11:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 5. Re: Re: Re: Re: "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be far behind?" (Marcus Bales) (Marcus Bales). (Marcus B In-Reply-To: References: <200304142054.h3EKs3ST004798@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3E9D9CBB.9963.5E1FE5@localhost> Elemenope: > If you don't confront him, the one who should be confronted, and you > limit your squawking to this line ...<< You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that people always tell the truth when they are asked about it, and are even willing to tell that truth even when it is in both their own and their organization's economic and political self-interest to lie. Elemenope: > (You > never set out against the Clintons, by the way, which is my point > about your faux muckracking.) << You can't know me very well if you think this is the case. I did criticize the Clinton Administration for a good number of things, not least Clinton's inability to keep it in his pants. A sample: Clinton Hymn of the Republic Marcus Bales Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of a mess From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 16 18:56:07 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:56:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of Unknowing Message-ID: <1d2.7993f24.2bcf3987@aol.com> In a message dated 4/16/03 11:20:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, elemenope at icubed.com writes: > A TRAP! > > If President Bush had listened to Merwin's "conscience," Saddam would > still be chortling on his throne. If Merwin's people had > successfully stolen the 2000 Election and continued their foreign > policy, America, today, would be under unremitting terrorist attack. > > Indeed, come to think of it, Merwin should be revulsed with himself. > He forgets how another killer tyrant, another one of these Asian boho > personality powermongers, Anne Waldman's guru, Chogyam Trungpa, > tortured and humiliated Merwin and his young paramour at Snowmass, > Colorado in 1975 in front of a ratpack of "Buddhist" cultists. > > Shame, Mr. Merwin, shame! Back to that French nut farm with you. After this gossipy yelp, I'm left wondering who is not well. Get some help, man, before you hurt yourself. Practicing without a licence via email, Finnegan From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Wed Apr 16 19:12:00 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:12:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <1e5.6e4b978.2bcf3d40@aol.com> In a message dated 4/16/2003 5:24:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > Also the names of Emory P. Gray, > Mr. and Mrs. Dukes, and Oscar Baer > of 17 West 4th Street, Oyster Bay. > --Morris Bishop > Marcus Bales > In truth, I grew up with the Baers of Oyster Bay. Nice people, but they're no longer there. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 16 22:55:53 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:55:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9D8E89.30566.26AA5E@localhost> Message-ID: <003c01c3048c$dcf54560$6bf7fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman wrote: > > Marcus, if you want to argue about my taxonomy, go to it and tell me what's > > wrong with it, quoting from it to support your arguments rather than saying > > what you think it is and/or what you think I think it is.<< > > My critique of your taxonomy does not inhere in its details; it > inheres in the notion itself of a "taxonomy of poetry". What you > offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set of > categories describing characteristics that are both non-volitional > and unchanging on a human scale of time that has predictive power for > inductions. Poetry is simply neither non-volitional nor unchanging on > a human scale of time, and your list of categories has no predictive > power to guide inductions about poetry. To call your set of > categories a taxonomy is, in my view, simply a misnomer. > > Marcus Bales I knew that in the end you wouldn't be able to find anything wrong with it. --Bob G. From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Wed Apr 16 23:29:47 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:29:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baghdad, Flarf etc In-Reply-To: <3E9DB3C1.5AB23C56@earthlink.net> References: <200304152111.h3FLBFbU070272@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> <1050515658.3e9d98ca208ee@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <3E9DB3C1.5AB23C56@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1050550187.3e9e1fabc9e55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Quoting James Cervantes : > O.K., I give up. What is the "poetry formerly known as Flarf"? I > couldn't find "history of" at Sullivan's blog and Kasey Mohammad's froze > my computer. For the record, I'm impatient with blogs, or any web > pages, whose format and type size mimic the Yellow Pages. > > - Jim Jim, Glad to reply. My only caution is that I realize this will not appeal to a large number of the people on this list and I DO NOT want to get into an argument about its merits with Marcus or anyone else. Please. I'm too tired and this is strictly meant as informational. If anyone has honest questions I'm happy to discuss but don't just slam me for the sake of some territorial squabble. Okay. "Flarf" is, loosely speaking, a compositional method that has been employed by a small group of writers over the last two years, writing to each other on a listserv (in a real sense a sort of virtual group studio); now it's sparked some curiousity as the poems have begun to be published in magazines and in Kasey Mohammad's forthcoming book of poems, DEER HEAD NATION. Kasey explains its history this way: *************** Flarf came about a couple of years ago when Gary Sullivan submitted a deliberately bad poem to Poetry.com, one of those vanity companies that lures the unsuspecting with lavish praise of their poetry and then offers to "publish" it for an exorbitant fee. Theorizing that no submission, no matter how heinous, would ever be treated with anything other than solicitous fawning, he sent in a poem titled "Mm-hmm": Yeah, mm-hmm, it's true big birds make big doo! I got fire inside my "huppa"-chimp(TM) gonna be agreessive, greasy aw yeah god wanna DOOT! DOOT! Pffffffffffffffffffffffffft! hey! oooh yeah baby gonna shake & bake then take AWWWWWL your monee, honee (tee hee) uggah duggah buggah biggah buggah muggah hey! hey! you stoopid Mick! get off the paddy field and git me some chocolate Quik put a Q-tip in it and stir it up sick pocka-mocka-chocka-locka-DING DONG fuck! shit! piss! oh it's so sad that syndrome what's it called tourette's make me HAI-EE! shout out loud Cuz I love thee. Thank you God, for listening! Sure enough, he received a full invitation to have his timeless piece of literature enshrined for all posterity, etc. Gary shared his poem, the style of which he promptly dubbed "Flarf," with members of the Subpoetics mailing list, and before long a few other participants began posting poems to Poetry.com, including myself, Drew Gardner, Jordan Davis, and a handful of others. Eventually, we formed a separate mailing list. The initial aesthetics of Flarf went largely unarticulated, but they can probably be approximated by the following recipe: deliberate shapelessness of content, form, spelling, and thought in general, with liberal borrowing from internet chat-room drivel and spam scripts, often with the intention of achieving a studied blend of the offensive, the sentimental, and the infantile. Flarf has largely become stylized out of existence, made inseparable from the usual writing habits of its practitioners, as Gary and Nada and others have pointed out. Maybe the problem was ever announcing "Flarf" as a concept, suggestive of a movement, etc., in the first place. There were those among us who shrewdly warned about the dangers of such a move?Katie Degentesh, for example. The truth is, Flarf is not a movement, never was, because it has no principles as such, beyond some characteristic compositional techniques that developed along the way (collaging Google search-engine results, etc.)**** ****************** I have a somewhat different take on Flarf, partly because I came to the Flarflist about a year after it had begun. These days the "flarf" poems borrow less from chat room and SPAM language (what gets called "old skool flarf") and, as Kasey suggests, different poets have molded it to their stylistic interests needs. But I would say everyone on the list shares some of the things Kasey mentions above in common, particularly a willingness to risk working with the language of (what seems like) pure stupidity, frivolity, to see what might be done with it poetically. The work produced is wildly heterogeneous in form and content - plays, long formless or projective poems, sonnets, prose poems, fake news stories (imagine The Onion taken over by 1920s New York Dadaists), short stories, sound collages etc etc etc. Here's what I wrote about flarf to a friend, it sums up Flarf as I've experienced it and practiced it (others would see this entirely differently!): "Flarf" is a collage-based method which employs Google searches, specifically the partial quotes which Google "captures" from websites. In its early manifestations it was VERY whimsical and went something like this: you search Google for 2 disparate terms, like "anarchy + tuna melt" ? using only the quotes captured by Google (never the actual websites themselves) you stitch words, phrases, clauses, sentences together to create poems. To me, it?s interesting for a number of reasons ?? its collaborative texture, its anthropological implications (the sampling of an enormous variety of public speech based on a single word or phrase shared in common), its comic (not to say unserious) frame. Again, the methodology is not transparent -- I have no idea at all how some of the other flarf writers get their particular effects. But it safe to say they are all using Google as if it were the worlds biggest dictionary/thesaurus/newspaper, and drawing on avant-garde collage and cut-up procedures. On the other hand, Google allows you to do collage (at a startlingly fast pace) without creating the normal surface textures of collage. Anyway, you can see some of this stuff at www.mainstreampoetry.com, though I caution that it's not necessarily representative of what's been generated by the Flarflist over the last 2 years. Here's a flarf poem of mine, for what it's worth: BLOWBACK Over the China Sea a winged corolla flaps Causes a tiny breeze to blow a leaf as Lorenz Had done back in Lawrence? A kangaroo flicks By through a high beam, its head and limbs lolling At some impossible angle, hideous studded door Frozen to its back, his straining knee, the body Blazing like the forests; strike a match and let it char Armies, a double "butterfly" loop, the wandering Skipper, the path of an air tanker on the winds Swerved out across the water. Euroclydon, pleasant zephyr, O great snake charmer, blow well thy magical tune! "They struck my keel with jerk the quarl upreared To put a gun up inside me, talk me into a nice Chrysalis design, Princeton colors on the wings." -m. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 16 23:02:02 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:02:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9D8E89.30566.26AA5E@localhost> Message-ID: <007301c3048d$b91ea900$6bf7fea9@j1c1k6> Note to Marcus: this is the first of your posts about my misguided efforts to distinguish one kind of poetry from another as some people, like you, distinguish poetry from prose--or from sculpture--that I've saved. And not because I found it instructive. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Apr 17 08:27:31 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 08:27:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <003c01c3048c$dcf54560$6bf7fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9E6573.14925.2FD74F@localhost> > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Marcus, if you want to argue about my taxonomy, go to it and tell me what's > > > wrong with it, quoting from it to support your arguments rather than saying > > > what you think it is and/or what you think I think it is.<< Marcus Bales: > > My critique of your taxonomy does not inhere in its details; it > > inheres in the notion itself of a "taxonomy of poetry". What you > > offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set of > > categories describing characteristics that are both non-volitional > > and unchanging on a human scale of time that has predictive power for > > inductions. Poetry is simply neither non-volitional nor unchanging on > > a human scale of time, and your list of categories has no predictive > > power to guide inductions about poetry. To call your set of > > categories a taxonomy is, in my view, simply a misnomer. Bob Grumman: > I knew that in the end you wouldn't be able to find anything wrong with it.<< Finding that the entire notion is wrong is not finding something wrong with it? Your entire conception of the thing is like trying to design a manufacturing plant by writing poems about it instead of drawing blueprints and schedules: you have firmly grasped the wrong end of the stick. Your conception of a taxonomy of poetry is simply wrong on the face of it. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Apr 17 10:32:58 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:32:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Blaise Cendrars, "Hommage to Guillaume Apollinaire" Message-ID: Hommage to Guillaume Apollinaire The bread rises France Paris An entire generation I address myself to the poets who were there: Friends Apollinaire is not dead You followed an empty hearse Apollinaire is a magus It was him, smiling in the silk of flags at the windows Having fun, tossing flowers and wreaths at you As you went by, behind his hearse Then he went and bought himself a little tricolor cockade I saw him appear on the boulevards that same evening Riding the hood of an American truck and waving an enormous international flag, spread out like an airplane VIVE LA FRANCE Times change Years glide by like clouds The soldiers have come home Their home in their country And before you know it, there's a new generaltion: The dream of THE BREASTS OF TIRESIAS come true! Little Frenchmen, half English, half Negro, half Russian, with a touch of Belgian, Italian, Annamite, Czech One speaks like a Canadian, another has Hindu eyes Teeth face bones joints figure gait smile All a little alien, yet right at home Among them Apollinaire, like that statue of the Nile, Father of the Waters, stretched out, with children flowing out of him everywhere: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Apr 17 12:13:01 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:13:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F6D@mail.ripon.edu> Just received my contributor's copy of a new anthology, *Are You Experienced? Baby Boom Poets at Midlife*, edited by Pamela Gemin (U Iowa Press). This is a sort of companion volume to *Boomer Girls*, edited by Gemin and Paula Sergi, which appeared in 1999. Both books contain a nice representation of mainstream poetry by poets of a certain age--those who don't need a footnote for the title *Are You Experienced?*, one might say. Now that the boys have been let into the club, the new volume includes better known names (Komunyakaa, Jim Daniels, David Mura, Tony Hoagland, Rodney Jones, Albert Goldbarth, Bob Holman. . . ) alongside others who may be new to many readers. And a lot of boomer girls are back, too: Kim Addonizio, Denise Duhamel, Ginger Andrews, Dorothy Barresi, Betsy Sholl, Belle Waring, et al. A very good read, I say shamelessly, for I not only have some poems in it but also wrote an introduction. Here is a sample, the first poem in the anthology-- Choosing My Conception My mother at a party in a blue dress dancing, left-handing a Bacardi and Coke in June as the house pants through open windows. Two men in the backyard clutching imaginary nine irons, miming their swings for the analytical reflections of the moon. A woman seven months along in a sunflower muumuu accepting suggestions for names - saints and ballplayers, a candidate promising Camelot - as hands shadow her belly, a reflex of memory. Nancy Sinatra on the hi-fi, my mother employing more hip, closing her eyes and shimmying against the base line. Everyone floating a half inch off the floor, the season a thermal in the blood making them dream like hawks, making them crave sky. My mother dancing with the tide of Todd Rawlings, with his premonitions, the air he's about to inhabit. They don't care for each other the way my father worries, watching from the flagstone fireplace, Betty Thomas composing an ode to hydrangeas in his right ear. They don't touch each other or the lyrics, don't know the room exists, that dishwashers are on sale and pillbox hats a must. A little rum, the heat of a woman finally singing in her natural register, done with the virginal songs, the doo-wop tease. If for three minutes you could vanish into your knees, into the deepest meat of your brain, the part that thrums hosanna, the kernel unharrowed by words, how readily your bliss might be mistaken for lust. So despite the shame of something deeper showing, the unhinged self, my father comes over between songs, lowers my mother's head to his shoulder and begins to sway rigidly, like rust, until her skin and the blue dress with one strap almost falling, until her hands plowing the long muscles of his back, make him forget he hates to dance, to douse his body in music. After an hour of Ray Charles, Dean Martin and the diesel of Patsy Cline, my parents leave, walk past their red Valiant, arms vined across each other's back, to a park where a bronze man threatens stars with a saber. And for once my father's able to say what doesn't make sense but flows, to articulate something like rhythm, she's able to forget what he wants for a second, to look away from his face at the willows shaking their hair to attract the moon, suddenly they're both devoted to the echo of a tune, the strap of a blue dress falling, and soon, and randomly I will exist. Bob Hicok ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From elemenope at icubed.com Thu Apr 17 01:34:46 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:34:46 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be far behind?" (Marcus Bales) (Marcus Bales).(Marcus Bales) (Marcus Bales) (Marcus Bales) In-Reply-To: <200304170427.h3H4R4ST024676@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304170427.h3H4R4ST024676@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Bubba's sexual escapades and connected legal subterfuges and perjuries acted as camouflage and diversions for his real crimes. But when the astrologers examined his chart it was found that the "slippery" or "Teflon" component of his fate operated perfectly enough to prevent the arm of the law from locking his oily torso in a permanent fix. That's just how it is and, as Poet Rumsfeld says, "Life goes on." Your anti-Bubba poem should have had wider distribution when the scandal was hot. As to our investigation: >>I have given you the name and address of the man you need to confront: >> >>> >>>> >>>>>Charles E. Dominy >>>>>Vice President >>>>>Government Affairs, Halliburton Corporation >>>>>1150 18th St NW Ste 200 >>>>>Washington, DC 20036 > >USA He may lie. He may be utterly forthcoming. He probably (IMHO) knows how and why everything that Halliburton is doing in this project is absolutely legal and, indeed, necessary - - if Halliburton doesn't do it, it won't get done because no one else is positioned to do it or can afford to do it. He may hit back with boilerplate. But, he knows and no investigation which would satisfy the world at large can exclude real time contact with him. Send him a letter of inquiry. Ask your question. Let's see what he says. No need to get testy with him, Mr. Bales, like one of these wannabe Merwin eco-Commie-faux-antiWar-antiW-dissidents. Not that you would, but I'm just telling interested parties that we are approaching this soberly and with business-like demeanor. Ask, see what he says. >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Baghdad, Flarf etc (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) > 2. Re: Gioia at the NEA (Bob Grumman) > 3. Re: Baghdad, Flarf etc (James Cervantes) > 4. Re: do you stand with these then? (Chris Lott) > 5. Re: Gioia at the NEA (Marcus Bales) > 6. Re: Gioia at the NEA (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) > 7. Re: Gioia at the NEA (Marcus Bales) > 8. poethia (Cadaly at aol.com) > 9. Re: 5. Re: Re: Re: Re: "If Chalabi comes, can Halliburton be >far behind?" (Marcus Bales) (Marcus Bales). (Marcus B (Marcus Bales) > 10. Re: Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of Unknowing >(JforJames at aol.com) > 11. Re: Gioia at the NEA (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) > 12. Re: Gioia at the NEA (Bob Grumman) > 13. Re: Baghdad, Flarf etc (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:54:18 -0400 >From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu, POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: [New-Poetry] Baghdad, Flarf etc >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Hi all, a couple unrelated (I think) things: > >1. from the "you can't make this stuff up" file: "A Marine officer was reading >a copy of Playboy as he defecated into a milk crate." That's from Jon Lee >Anderson's story in NYer this week on the "liberation" of Baghdad. Yup, the >Shiites are really gonna love having 20,000 American service men in >what is now >*their* country (60%) for the next ten years. > >2. For anyone interested in the poetry formerly known as Flarf, there are some >interesting comments and history on Kasey Mohammad's and Gary Sullivan's blogs >right now. garysullivan.blogspot.com and limetree.blogspot.com > >When I have a bit more time perhaps I'll say something in defense of Flarf, as >it now seems to have been fully outed. > >Peace, -m. > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:18:03 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Marcus, if you want to argue about my taxonomy, go to it and tell me what's >wrong with it, quoting from it to support your arguments rather than saying >what you think it is and/or what you think I think it is. > >I'm not going to reply to your long, not completely stupid last post to this >thread. I don't have time to. > >--Bob G. > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 3 >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:49:22 -0700 >From: James Cervantes >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Baghdad, Flarf etc >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >O.K., I give up. What is the "poetry formerly known as Flarf"? I >couldn't find "history of" at Sullivan's blog and Kasey Mohammad's froze >my computer. For the record, I'm impatient with blogs, or any web >pages, whose format and type size mimic the Yellow Pages. > >- Jim > >mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote: >> >> Hi all, a couple unrelated (I think) things: >> >> 1. from the "you can't make this stuff up" file: "A Marine officer >>was reading >> a copy of Playboy as he defecated into a milk crate." That's from Jon Lee >> Anderson's story in NYer this week on the "liberation" of Baghdad. Yup, the >> Shiites are really gonna love having 20,000 American service men >>in what is now >> *their* country (60%) for the next ten years. >> >> 2. For anyone interested in the poetry formerly known as Flarf, >>there are some >> interesting comments and history on Kasey Mohammad's and Gary >>Sullivan's blogs >> right now. garysullivan.blogspot.com and limetree.blogspot.com >> >> When I have a bit more time perhaps I'll say something in defense >>of Flarf, as >> it now seems to have been fully outed. >> >> Peace, -m. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >--__--__-- > >Message: 4 >From: "Chris Lott" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] do you stand with these then? >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 13:01:49 -0800 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >On Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:17 AM, Mairead Byrne spake >thusly: > >> That may be. In Northern Ireland, where the press was considerably >> more open than the American press, >> official versions of events shifted over time [...] > >Along those lines, this article was more than a little scary: >http://makeashorterlink.com/?G56025D34 > >c >-- >Chris Lott > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 5 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:10:33 -0400 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Bob Grumman wrote: >> Marcus, if you want to argue about my taxonomy, go to it and tell me what's >> wrong with it, quoting from it to support your arguments rather than saying >> what you think it is and/or what you think I think it is.<< > >My critique of your taxonomy does not inhere in its details; it >inheres in the notion itself of a "taxonomy of poetry". What you >offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set of >categories describing characteristics that are both non-volitional >and unchanging on a human scale of time that has predictive power for >inductions. Poetry is simply neither non-volitional nor unchanging on >a human scale of time, and your list of categories has no predictive >power to guide inductions about poetry. To call your set of >categories a taxonomy is, in my view, simply a misnomer. > >Marcus Bales > >marcus at designerglass.com >http://www.designerglass.com > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 6 >From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:10:44 EDT >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >--part1_162.1efb1816.2bcf20d4_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I met a traveler from an antique land >Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone >Stand in the desert. > >Jeffrey Levine > >In a message dated 4/16/2003 5:05:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >marcus at designerglass.com writes: > >> Bob Grumman wrote: >> >Marcus, if you want to argue about my taxonomy, go to it and tell me >> what's >> >wrong with it, quoting from it to support your arguments rather than >> saying >> >what you think it is and/or what you think I think it is.<< >> >> My critique of your taxonomy does not inhere in its details; it >> inheres in the notion itself of a "taxonomy of poetry". What you >> offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set of >> categories describing characteristics that are both non-volitional >> and unchanging on a human scale of time that has predictive power for >> inductions. Poetry is simply neither non-volitional nor unchanging on >> a human scale of time, and your list of categories has no predictive >> power to guide inductions about poetry. To call your set of >> categories a taxonomy is, in my view, simply a misnomer. >> >> Marcus Bales >> >> > > > > > > >--part1_162.1efb1816.2bcf20d4_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">I met a traveler from an anti= >que land
>Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
>Stand in the desert.
> FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
> FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Jeffrey Levine
>
> FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 4/1= >6/2003 5:05:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes:> >
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"A= >rial" LANG=3D"0">Bob Grumman wrote:
>>Marcus, if you want to argue about my taxonomy, go to it and tell me wha= >t's
>>wrong with it, quoting from it to support your arguments rather than say= >ing
>>what you think it is and/or what you think I think it is.<<
>
>My critique of your taxonomy does not inhere in its details; it
>inheres in the notion itself of a "taxonomy of poetry". What you
>offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set of
>categories describing characteristics that are both non-volitional
>and unchanging on a human scale of time that has predictive power for
>inductions. Poetry is simply neither non-volitional nor unchanging on
>a human scale of time, and your list of categories has no predictive
>power to guide inductions about poetry. To call your set of
>categories a taxonomy is, in my view, simply a misnomer.
>
>Marcus Bales
>
>

> FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">
>
>
>
>
> >--part1_162.1efb1816.2bcf20d4_boundary-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 7 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:28:45 -0400 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > > Bob Grumman wrote: >> > >Marcus, if you want to argue about my taxonomy, go to it and tell me >> > what's >> > >wrong with it, quoting from it to support your arguments rather than >> > saying >> > >what you think it is and/or what you think I think it is.<< > >Marcus Bales: >> > My critique of your taxonomy does not inhere in its details; it >> > inheres in the notion itself of a "taxonomy of poetry". What you >> > offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set of >> > categories describing characteristics that are both non-volitional >> > and unchanging on a human scale of time that has predictive power for > > > inductions. Poetry is simply neither non-volitional nor unchanging on >> > a human scale of time, and your list of categories has no predictive >> > power to guide inductions about poetry. To call your set of >> > categories a taxonomy is, in my view, simply a misnomer. > >Jeffrey Levine: >> I met a traveler from an antique land >> Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone >> Stand in the desert. > >OZYMANDIAS REVISITED >Morris Bishop >I > met a traveler from an antique land >Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone >Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand, >Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies, whose frown >And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command >Tell that its sculptor well those passions read >Which yet survive, stamp'd on these lifeless things, >The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed; >And on the pedestal these words appear: >'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings! >Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!' >Also the names of Emory P. Gray, >Mr. and Mrs. Dukes, and Oscar Baer >of 17 West 4th Street, Oyster Bay. > --Morris Bishop > > > > >Marcus Bales > >marcus at designerglass.com >http://www.designerglass.com > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 8 >From: Cadaly at aol.com >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:03:53 EDT >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] poethia >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >--part1_22.38d22451.2bcf2d49_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Send texts to: > >Peter Ganick >Annabelle Clippinger >Jim Leftwich > > publishes a diversity of poetries >and short texts. sue> is an electronic chapbook, sent separ- >ately. a new format >will start soon, with a text of thomas tay- >lor. it will be sent out less freqently. > >all three formats read submissions in ms- >word or text-only format. all submissions >will receive an answer. tell your friends >and associates about . subscrip- >tions are FREE, and there is no reading >fee. > >--part1_22.38d22451.2bcf2d49_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Send texts to:
>
>Peter Ganick <poethia at mindspring.com>
>Annabelle Clippinger <axc45 at psu.edu>
>Jim Leftwich <xtant at cstone.net>
>
><poethia> publishes a diversity of poetries
>and short texts. <poethia: single-author is-
>sue> is an electronic chapbook, sent separ-
>ately. a new format <poethia: book-length>
>will start soon, with a text of thomas tay-
>lor. it will be sent out less freqently.
>
>all three formats read submissions in ms-
>word or text-only format. all submissions
>will receive an answer. tell your friends
>and associates about <poethia>. subscrip-
>tions are FREE, and there is no reading
>fee. > >--part1_22.38d22451.2bcf2d49_boundary-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 9 >From: "Marcus Bales" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:11:07 -0400 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 5. Re: Re: Re: Re: "If Chalabi comes, can >Halliburton be far behind?" (Marcus Bales) (Marcus Bales). (Marcus B >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Elemenope: >> If you don't confront him, the one who should be confronted, and you >> limit your squawking to this line ...<< > >You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that people always >tell the truth when they are asked about it, and are even willing to >tell that truth even when it is in both their own and their >organization's economic and political self-interest to lie. > >Elemenope: >> (You >> never set out against the Clintons, by the way, which is my point >> about your faux muckracking.) << > >You can't know me very well if you think this is the case. I did >criticize the Clinton Administration for a good number of things, not >least Clinton's inability to keep it in his pants. A sample: > >Clinton Hymn of the Republic >Marcus Bales > >Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of a mess >From the Presidential Penis on a dark blue party dress >I guess I'll have to save it just in case he won't confess > His lust is marching on. > >Chorus: >Glory, glory, Willie's wanker >Affidavit but don't thank her! >Sex ain't sex if you out-rank her > His lust is marching on. > >I have seen him work the rope-lines 'mid his circling aides-de-camp >While he smiles as women whisper how he makes their panties damp; >He always seems to hug and kiss the one dressed like a tramp. > His lust is marching on. >Chorus: > >In the beauty of the Oval Office, lounging at his ease, >With the glory of the Presidential Penis in the breeze >He welcomes yet another White House intern on her knees > His lust is marching on. >Chorus: > >He is phoning party leaders in their offices and cars >He is phoning kings and ministers in markets and bazaars >But the only thing they want talk about is moist cigars > His lust is marching on. >Chorus: > >He has had his trumpet sounded by their mouths and breasts and feet >He is sifting out the Sutra for some other means as sweet >O, be swift in deposition if you cannot be discreet! > His lust is marching on. >Chorus: > >Elemenope: >> At this point all you have is an accusation. Where is your >> evidence? How closely have you examined >> the federal contracts and their history in this matter? Have you >> examined the Federal Recording Offices files regarding Halliburton? >> It doesn't seem that you have; it seems that you have concocted the >> possibility of an interlinking between Cheney, Halliburton and this >> contract -- but you have no evidence. For you, an accusation backed >> up by cynical and hateful emotion against innocent people whose party >> you despise is enough to prove to yourself that your accusation is an >> apriori fact.<< > >This sounds like a sort of mean-spirited transference, to me. I don't >hate Republicans nor the Republican Party. I often disagree with >their policies, but not always. > >As for my cynicism, well, I'm going to have to cop to that. I am >indeed a cynic about people in power. As Lincoln (a Republican if >you remember) used to say "Almost any man can stand adversity; to >really test him give him power." My experience in national government >and my observation of it since those long-gone days both argue >persuasively to me that men in power are all too able to imagine that >their own, or their own faction's or party's, or their own peer >group's, social group's, or cultural group's, or former or future >employer's short term self interests are the interests of the >country. > >But I think that's a problem irrespective of party, faction, peer, >social, or cultural group, or employer future or former. I don't hold >that Republicans are more corrupt than Democrats or vice versa. > >Marcus Bales > >marcus at designerglass.com >http://www.designerglass.com > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 10 >From: JforJames at aol.com >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 18:56:07 EDT >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of Unknowing >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >In a message dated 4/16/03 11:20:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >elemenope at icubed.com writes: > >> A TRAP! >> >> If President Bush had listened to Merwin's "conscience," Saddam would >> still be chortling on his throne. If Merwin's people had >> successfully stolen the 2000 Election and continued their foreign >> policy, America, today, would be under unremitting terrorist attack. >> >> Indeed, come to think of it, Merwin should be revulsed with himself. >> He forgets how another killer tyrant, another one of these Asian boho >> personality powermongers, Anne Waldman's guru, Chogyam Trungpa, >> tortured and humiliated Merwin and his young paramour at Snowmass, >> Colorado in 1975 in front of a ratpack of "Buddhist" cultists. >> >> Shame, Mr. Merwin, shame! Back to that French nut farm with you. >After this gossipy yelp, I'm left wondering who is not well. Get some >help, man, before you hurt yourself. >Practicing without a licence via email, >Finnegan > >--__--__-- > >Message: 11 >From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:12:00 EDT >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >--part1_1e5.6e4b978.2bcf3d40_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In a message dated 4/16/2003 5:24:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >marcus at designerglass.com writes: > >> Also the names of Emory P. Gray, >> Mr. and Mrs. Dukes, and Oscar Baer >> of 17 West 4th Street, Oyster Bay. >> --Morris Bishop >> Marcus Bales >> >In truth, I grew up with the Baers of Oyster Bay. Nice people, but they're no >longer there. > >Jeffrey Levine > >--part1_1e5.6e4b978.2bcf3d40_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 4/16/2003 5:24:26 PM Eastern Daylig= >ht Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Also the names of Emory P. Gray= >,
>Mr. and Mrs. Dukes, and Oscar Baer
>of 17 West 4th Street, Oyster Bay.
>          --Morris Bishop
>Marcus Bales
>

>In truth, I grew up with the Baers of Oyster Bay. Nice people, but they're n= >o longer there.
>
>Jeffrey Levine
> >--part1_1e5.6e4b978.2bcf3d40_boundary-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 12 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:55:53 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> Bob Grumman wrote: >> > Marcus, if you want to argue about my taxonomy, go to it and tell me >what's >> > wrong with it, quoting from it to support your arguments rather than >saying >> > what you think it is and/or what you think I think it is.<< >> >> My critique of your taxonomy does not inhere in its details; it >> inheres in the notion itself of a "taxonomy of poetry". What you >> offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set of >> categories describing characteristics that are both non-volitional >> and unchanging on a human scale of time that has predictive power for >> inductions. Poetry is simply neither non-volitional nor unchanging on >> a human scale of time, and your list of categories has no predictive >> power to guide inductions about poetry. To call your set of >> categories a taxonomy is, in my view, simply a misnomer. >> >> Marcus Bales > >I knew that in the end you wouldn't be able to find anything wrong with it. > >--Bob G. > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 13 >Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 23:29:47 -0400 >From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu, James Cervantes >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Baghdad, Flarf etc >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Quoting James Cervantes : > >> O.K., I give up. What is the "poetry formerly known as Flarf"? I >> couldn't find "history of" at Sullivan's blog and Kasey Mohammad's froze >> my computer. For the record, I'm impatient with blogs, or any web >> pages, whose format and type size mimic the Yellow Pages. >> >> - Jim > > >Jim, > >Glad to reply. My only caution is that I realize this will not appeal to a >large number of the people on this list and I DO NOT want to get into an >argument about its merits with Marcus or anyone else. Please. I'm too tired >and this is strictly meant as informational. If anyone has honest questions >I'm happy to discuss but don't just slam me for the sake of some territorial >squabble. Okay. > >"Flarf" is, loosely speaking, a compositional method that has been employed by >a small group of writers over the last two years, writing to each other on a >listserv (in a real sense a sort of virtual group studio); now it's sparked >some curiousity as the poems have begun to be published in magazines and in >Kasey Mohammad's forthcoming book of poems, DEER HEAD NATION. > >Kasey explains its history this way: >*************** >Flarf came about a couple of years ago when Gary Sullivan submitted a >deliberately bad poem to Poetry.com, one of those vanity companies that lures >the unsuspecting with lavish praise of their poetry and then offers to >"publish" it for an exorbitant fee. Theorizing that no submission, no matter >how heinous, would ever be treated with anything other than >solicitous fawning, >he sent in a poem titled "Mm-hmm": > > Yeah, mm-hmm, it's true > big birds make > big doo! I got fire inside > my "huppa"-chimp(TM) > gonna be agreessive, greasy aw yeah god > wanna DOOT! DOOT! > Pffffffffffffffffffffffffft! hey! > oooh yeah baby gonna shake & bake then take > AWWWWWL your monee, honee (tee hee) > uggah duggah buggah biggah buggah muggah > hey! hey! you stoopid Mick! get > off the paddy field and git > me some chocolate Quik > put a Q-tip in it and stir it up sick > pocka-mocka-chocka-locka-DING DONG > fuck! shit! piss! oh it's so sad that > syndrome what's it called tourette's > make me HAI-EE! shout out loud > Cuz I love thee. Thank you God, for listening! > >Sure enough, he received a full invitation to have his timeless piece of >literature enshrined for all posterity, etc. > >Gary shared his poem, the style of which he promptly dubbed "Flarf," with >members of the Subpoetics mailing list, and before long a few other >participants began posting poems to Poetry.com, including myself, >Drew Gardner, >Jordan Davis, and a handful of others. Eventually, we formed a separate >mailing list. > >The initial aesthetics of Flarf went largely unarticulated, but they can >probably be approximated by the following recipe: deliberate shapelessness of >content, form, spelling, and thought in general, with liberal borrowing from >internet chat-room drivel and spam scripts, often with the intention of >achieving a studied blend of the offensive, the sentimental, and the >infantile. > >Flarf has largely become stylized out of existence, made inseparable from the >usual writing habits of its practitioners, as Gary and Nada and others have >pointed out. > >Maybe the problem was ever announcing "Flarf" as a concept, suggestive of a >movement, etc., in the first place. There were those among us who shrewdly >warned about the dangers of such a move?Katie Degentesh, for example. The >truth is, Flarf is not a movement, never was, because it has no principles as >such, beyond some characteristic compositional techniques that developed along >the way (collaging Google search-engine results, etc.)**** >****************** > >I have a somewhat different take on Flarf, partly because I came to the >Flarflist about a year after it had begun. These days the "flarf" >poems borrow >less from chat room and SPAM language (what gets called "old skool >flarf") and, >as Kasey suggests, different poets have molded it to their stylistic interests >needs. But I would say everyone on the list shares some of the things Kasey >mentions above in common, particularly a willingness to risk working with the >language of (what seems like) pure stupidity, frivolity, to see what might be >done with it poetically. The work produced is wildly heterogeneous in form >and content - plays, long formless or projective poems, sonnets, prose poems, >fake news stories (imagine The Onion taken over by 1920s New York Dadaists), >short stories, sound collages etc etc etc. > >Here's what I wrote about flarf to a friend, it sums up Flarf as I've >experienced it and practiced it (others would see this entirely differently!): > >"Flarf" is a collage-based method which employs Google searches, specifically >the partial quotes which Google "captures" from websites. In its early >manifestations it was VERY whimsical and went something like this: you search >Google for 2 disparate terms, like "anarchy + tuna melt" ? using only the >quotes captured by Google (never the actual websites themselves) you stitch >words, phrases, clauses, sentences together to create poems. To me, it?s >interesting for a number of reasons ?? its collaborative texture, its >anthropological implications (the sampling of an enormous variety of public >speech based on a single word or phrase shared in common), its comic (not to >say unserious) frame. > >Again, the methodology is not transparent -- I have no idea at all how some of >the other flarf writers get their particular effects. But it safe to say they >are all using Google as if it were the worlds biggest >dictionary/thesaurus/newspaper, and drawing on avant-garde collage and cut-up >procedures. On the other hand, Google allows you to do collage (at a >startlingly fast pace) without creating the normal surface textures >of collage. > >Anyway, you can see some of this stuff at www.mainstreampoetry.com, though I >caution that it's not necessarily representative of what's been generated by >the Flarflist over the last 2 years. > >Here's a flarf poem of mine, for what it's worth: > >BLOWBACK > >Over the China Sea a winged corolla flaps >Causes a tiny breeze to blow a leaf as Lorenz >Had done back in Lawrence? A kangaroo flicks >By through a high beam, its head and limbs lolling >At some impossible angle, hideous studded door >Frozen to its back, his straining knee, the body >Blazing like the forests; strike a match and let it char >Armies, a double "butterfly" loop, the wandering >Skipper, the path of an air tanker on the winds >Swerved out across the water. Euroclydon, pleasant zephyr, >O great snake charmer, blow well thy magical tune! >"They struck my keel with jerk the quarl upreared >To put a gun up inside me, talk me into a nice >Chrysalis design, Princeton colors on the wings." > >-m. > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- From ggatza at daemen.edu Thu Apr 17 13:55:34 2003 From: ggatza at daemen.edu (B l a z e VOX) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:55:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] On fire: the image poem Message-ID: <008201c3050a$8b5fd070$605e3318@LINKAGE> Francis Raven http://www.blazevox.org/raven.htm The Donna Matrix http://www.blazevox.org/dm.htm a beautiful break from the misery of last week, sunshine ... a yell from the back yard, seems like there is a small fire in one of . 27,000 happy meals served sure - but on the score of his 1911 symphony Prometheus, poem of fire ... remarks on visualizations given a continuous visual image track for ... Poetry Only at BlazeVOX2k3 You are what you Blaze . Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k3 __o _`\<,_ (*) / (*) www.blazevox.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Apr 17 15:05:23 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:05:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Partisan Review Message-ID: Partisan Review RIP http://www.salon.com/books/wire/2003/04/16/partisan_review/index.html --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 17 15:29:07 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:29:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Partisan Review Message-ID: <2f.382944d7.2bd05a83@cs.com> In a message dated 4/17/2003 2:12:01 PM Central Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > http://www.salon.com/books/wire/2003/04/16/partisan_review/index.html > It's a shame, given its illustrious early history. We have a complete set from the late 40s and early 50s in our Poetry Room, and they're amazing mags. I subscribed for a while in the early 80s, and it was pretty bad by then--issues endlessly rehashing the Rosenbergs or Stalin's purges. Haven't seen one in some years now, though I occasionally hear of good poets being published there. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB at aol.com Thu Apr 17 16:03:51 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:03:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot Message-ID: <158.1e5460ec.2bd062a7@aol.com> David: Great news. . .I had a poem in the previous Boomer Girls and read in the AWP panel: Boomer Girls Outloud a few years ago. I hadn't heard that there was a new Boomer anthology. I'll check it out! Is it with Iowa Press as well? Cheers, Mill -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Thu Apr 17 04:00:27 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:00:27 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of Unknowing (JforJames@aol.com) In-Reply-To: <200304170427.h3H4R4ST024676@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304170427.h3H4R4ST024676@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Finnegan fails to deal with the post. His retort is off topic. It's an ad hominem failed spin. No gossip, only first hand facts. Ask and you shall be answered with Rumsfeldian authority. I am one of the few people who actually knew all of the major participants in the Merwin/Trungpa scenario, including first-hand witnesses. But my credentials aren't the issue here. Merwin's hypocrisy and resultant inauthentic poetry is the problem. (I lump Merwin, Robbins, Gerafalo, GG into the same dissident group, just for the record.) Get back on topic, Mr. Finnegan. Merwin has been accused of being unethical, among other things, in his writing. It's a serious charge. Deal with it or accept its validity. By the way, I didn't yelp. I barked -- about twenty times in a row -- with wild dog smile. > > 10. Re: Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of Unknowing >(JforJames at aol.com) >After this gossipy yelp, I'm left wondering who is not well. Get some >help, man, before you hurt yourself. >Practicing without a licence via email, >Finnegan -- From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 17 16:06:46 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:06:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9E6573.14925.2FD74F@localhost> Message-ID: <003701c3051c$e0909220$624dfea9@j1c1k6> > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > Marcus, if you want to argue about my taxonomy, go to it and tell me what's > > > > wrong with it, quoting from it to support your arguments rather than saying > > > > what you think it is and/or what you think I think it is.<< > > Marcus Bales: > > > My critique of your taxonomy does not inhere in its details; it > > > inheres in the notion itself of a "taxonomy of poetry". What you > > > offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set of > > > categories describing characteristics that are both non-volitional > > > and unchanging on a human scale of time that has predictive power for > > > inductions. Poetry is simply neither non-volitional nor unchanging on > > > a human scale of time, and your list of categories has no predictive > > > power to guide inductions about poetry. To call your set of > > > categories a taxonomy is, in my view, simply a misnomer. > > Bob Grumman: > > I knew that in the end you wouldn't be able to find anything wrong with it.<< > > Finding that the entire notion is wrong is not finding something > wrong with it? Your entire conception of the thing is like trying to > design a manufacturing plant by writing poems about it instead of > drawing blueprints and schedules: you have firmly grasped the wrong > end of the stick. Your conception of a taxonomy of poetry is simply > wrong on the face of it. > > Marcus Bales If that's so, you should be able to demonstrate it with examples. Indicate specifically what a taxonomy should have that mine does not have, for instance, or what it should do that mine does not do. Or does ineffectively. Etc. You might start with a sane definition of "taxonomy" as an attempt to classify items in an orderly way according to the way they inter-ralate, or the like. --Bob G. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Apr 17 16:15:32 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:15:32 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baghdad, Flarf etc References: <200304152111.h3FLBFbU070272@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> <1050515658.3e9d98ca208ee@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> <3E9DB3C1.5AB23C56@earthlink.net> <1050550187.3e9e1fabc9e55@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <3E9F0B64.76056383@earthlink.net> It's perfectly clear now, and I had a shock of recognition: I too have written new-Flarf poetry, even set aside my ego a couple of times to share it . . . or is that Cher it? - Jim, for sure mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote: > > Quoting James Cervantes : > > > O.K., I give up. What is the "poetry formerly known as Flarf"? I > > couldn't find "history of" at Sullivan's blog and Kasey Mohammad's froze > > my computer. For the record, I'm impatient with blogs, or any web > > pages, whose format and type size mimic the Yellow Pages. > > > > - Jim > > Jim, > > Glad to reply. My only caution is that I realize this will not appeal to a > large number of the people on this list and I DO NOT want to get into an > argument about its merits with Marcus or anyone else. Please. I'm too tired > and this is strictly meant as informational. If anyone has honest questions > I'm happy to discuss but don't just slam me for the sake of some territorial > squabble. Okay. > > "Flarf" is, loosely speaking, a compositional method that has been employed by > a small group of writers over the last two years, writing to each other on a > listserv (in a real sense a sort of virtual group studio); now it's sparked > some curiousity as the poems have begun to be published in magazines and in > Kasey Mohammad's forthcoming book of poems, DEER HEAD NATION. > > Kasey explains its history this way: > *************** > Flarf came about a couple of years ago when Gary Sullivan submitted a > deliberately bad poem to Poetry.com, one of those vanity companies that lures > the unsuspecting with lavish praise of their poetry and then offers to > "publish" it for an exorbitant fee. Theorizing that no submission, no matter > how heinous, would ever be treated with anything other than solicitous fawning, > he sent in a poem titled "Mm-hmm": > > Yeah, mm-hmm, it's true > big birds make > big doo! I got fire inside > my "huppa"-chimp(TM) > gonna be agreessive, greasy aw yeah god > wanna DOOT! DOOT! > Pffffffffffffffffffffffffft! hey! > oooh yeah baby gonna shake & bake then take > AWWWWWL your monee, honee (tee hee) > uggah duggah buggah biggah buggah muggah > hey! hey! you stoopid Mick! get > off the paddy field and git > me some chocolate Quik > put a Q-tip in it and stir it up sick > pocka-mocka-chocka-locka-DING DONG > fuck! shit! piss! oh it's so sad that > syndrome what's it called tourette's > make me HAI-EE! shout out loud > Cuz I love thee. Thank you God, for listening! > > Sure enough, he received a full invitation to have his timeless piece of > literature enshrined for all posterity, etc. > > Gary shared his poem, the style of which he promptly dubbed "Flarf," with > members of the Subpoetics mailing list, and before long a few other > participants began posting poems to Poetry.com, including myself, Drew Gardner, > Jordan Davis, and a handful of others. Eventually, we formed a separate > mailing list. > > The initial aesthetics of Flarf went largely unarticulated, but they can > probably be approximated by the following recipe: deliberate shapelessness of > content, form, spelling, and thought in general, with liberal borrowing from > internet chat-room drivel and spam scripts, often with the intention of > achieving a studied blend of the offensive, the sentimental, and the infantile. > > Flarf has largely become stylized out of existence, made inseparable from the > usual writing habits of its practitioners, as Gary and Nada and others have > pointed out. > > Maybe the problem was ever announcing "Flarf" as a concept, suggestive of a > movement, etc., in the first place. There were those among us who shrewdly > warned about the dangers of such a move?Katie Degentesh, for example. The > truth is, Flarf is not a movement, never was, because it has no principles as > such, beyond some characteristic compositional techniques that developed along > the way (collaging Google search-engine results, etc.)**** > ****************** > > I have a somewhat different take on Flarf, partly because I came to the > Flarflist about a year after it had begun. These days the "flarf" poems borrow > less from chat room and SPAM language (what gets called "old skool flarf") and, > as Kasey suggests, different poets have molded it to their stylistic interests > needs. But I would say everyone on the list shares some of the things Kasey > mentions above in common, particularly a willingness to risk working with the > language of (what seems like) pure stupidity, frivolity, to see what might be > done with it poetically. The work produced is wildly heterogeneous in form > and content - plays, long formless or projective poems, sonnets, prose poems, > fake news stories (imagine The Onion taken over by 1920s New York Dadaists), > short stories, sound collages etc etc etc. > > Here's what I wrote about flarf to a friend, it sums up Flarf as I've > experienced it and practiced it (others would see this entirely differently!): > > "Flarf" is a collage-based method which employs Google searches, specifically > the partial quotes which Google "captures" from websites. In its early > manifestations it was VERY whimsical and went something like this: you search > Google for 2 disparate terms, like "anarchy + tuna melt" ? using only the > quotes captured by Google (never the actual websites themselves) you stitch > words, phrases, clauses, sentences together to create poems. To me, it?s > interesting for a number of reasons ?? its collaborative texture, its > anthropological implications (the sampling of an enormous variety of public > speech based on a single word or phrase shared in common), its comic (not to > say unserious) frame. > > Again, the methodology is not transparent -- I have no idea at all how some of > the other flarf writers get their particular effects. But it safe to say they > are all using Google as if it were the worlds biggest > dictionary/thesaurus/newspaper, and drawing on avant-garde collage and cut-up > procedures. On the other hand, Google allows you to do collage (at a > startlingly fast pace) without creating the normal surface textures of collage. > > Anyway, you can see some of this stuff at www.mainstreampoetry.com, though I > caution that it's not necessarily representative of what's been generated by > the Flarflist over the last 2 years. > > Here's a flarf poem of mine, for what it's worth: > > BLOWBACK > > Over the China Sea a winged corolla flaps > Causes a tiny breeze to blow a leaf as Lorenz > Had done back in Lawrence? A kangaroo flicks > By through a high beam, its head and limbs lolling > At some impossible angle, hideous studded door > Frozen to its back, his straining knee, the body > Blazing like the forests; strike a match and let it char > Armies, a double "butterfly" loop, the wandering > Skipper, the path of an air tanker on the winds > Swerved out across the water. Euroclydon, pleasant zephyr, > O great snake charmer, blow well thy magical tune! > "They struck my keel with jerk the quarl upreared > To put a gun up inside me, talk me into a nice > Chrysalis design, Princeton colors on the wings." > > -m. From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Apr 17 16:11:23 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:11:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Toot Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F74@mail.ripon.edu> Yes, it's U Iowa Press. For further info, here's the Amazon page on it: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0877458502/qid%3D1050598145/sr%3D11-1 /ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-8214828-7309565 ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > David: > > Great news. . .I had a poem in the previous Boomer Girls and read in the > AWP panel: Boomer Girls Outloud a few years ago. I hadn't heard that > there was a new Boomer anthology. I'll check it out! Is it with Iowa > Press as well? > > Cheers, > > Mill > > > From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Apr 17 16:32:38 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:32:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <003701c3051c$e0909220$624dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3E9ED726.6206.3BD39B@localhost> Bob Grumman: > If that's so, you should be able to demonstrate it with examples.<< Did that. Bob Grumman: > Indicate > specifically what a taxonomy should have that mine does not have, for > instance, or what it should do that mine does not do. << Did both of those. Bob Grumman: > Or does ineffectively.<< Did that, too. Bob Grumman: > You might start with a sane definition of "taxonomy" > as an attempt to classify items in an orderly way according to the way they > inter-relate, or the like.<< Did that several times. What you offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set of categories describing characteristics that are both non-volitional and unchanging on a human scale of time that has predictive power for inductions (that is, allows users to talk about inter-relations). Poetry is simply neither non-volitional nor unchanging on a human scale of time, and your list of categories can offer us no predictive power to guide inductions about poetry. But to call what you've got a taxonomy is to use "taxonomy" only as a metaphor, not as a matter of scientific rigor. Do you intend this to be metaphorical, or are you shooting for scientific rigor? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 17 17:27:44 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Jarman "Body and Soul" Message-ID: <20030417212744.52435.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Got my copy of Mark Jarman's newest book of essays, *Body and Soul*, in the mail today. It's not unlike his last book of essays, *The Secret of Poetry*, in that it's primarily reprints of essays published elsewhere. Living in the hinterlands of American poetry--South Georgia--I was familiar with only one, an essay on the syntax of Robinson Jeffers that appeared not too long ago in the Jeffers Quarterly. Jarman's essays are both thought-provoking and entertaining. He of course focuses on narrative, but despite what some critics have said, he's never dogmatic in his argument. I don't have the copy here with me right now, but one of the essays in *Body and Soul* is about the narrative craft in some recent American poetry. In one section, he offers an interesting critique of Philip Levine's book *One for the Rose*, and goes on to argue that Levine's use of narrative doesn't hurt his verse, as some may argue, but actually allows him to connect with readers on a deeper, more human level. Another good essay in the book is the final one, a short biographical piece that covers a good portion of the poet's life, from his childhood in Scotland to his current position at Vanderbilt Univeristy. Particularly enlightening was his discussion of Robert McDowell and *The Reaper*. This final essay is an intimate portrait of the poet, one that enlightened me about Jarman's work and life. What follows is a recent piece of his from the Atlantic. Coyotes Mark Jarman Is this world truly fallen? They say no. For there's the new moon, there's the Milky Way, There's the rattler with a wren's egg in its mouth, And there's the panting rabbit they will eat. They sing their wild hymn on the dark slope, Reading the stars like notes of hilarious music. Is this a fallen world? How could it be? And yet we're crying over the stars again, And over the uncertainty of death, Which we suspect will divide us all forever. I'm tired of those who broadcast their certainties, Constantly on their cell phones to their redeemer. Is this a fallen world? For them it is. But there's that starlit burst of animal laughter. The day has sent its fires scattering. The night has risen from its burning bed. Our tears are proof that love is meant for life And for the living. And this chorus of praise, Which the pet dogs of the neighborhood are answering Nostalgically, invites our answer, too. Is this a fallen world? How could it be? Jeff Newberry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Thu Apr 17 18:27:42 2003 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:27:42 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Jarman "Body and Soul" In-Reply-To: <20030417212744.52435.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005c01c30530$95587fc0$57301c40@Emily> Jeff, I'd like to take a look at some recent Jarman essays. But I have a few questions/comment for you: * In one section, he offers an interesting critique of Philip Levine's book *One for the Rose*, and goes on to argue that Levine's use of narrative doesn't * hurt his verse, as some may argue, but actually allows him to connect with readers on a deeper, more human level. What's interesting about this argument? Narrative, per se, doesn't hurt or help verse, in my opinion. It's simply a tool, a technique. Levine's poetry makes me powerful bored because it's so prosey (w/the exception of one poem-"They Feed They Lion"), so same-seeming, so, well, boring. I've tried, tried, tried, to read him, but I just can't make it very far. That said, nobody has ever been able to tell me what's so great about his poetry-what does he do that someone else hasn't done better? That said, I must admit that I think he's a very chaming personage in interviews and prose. Particularly enlightening was his discussion of Robert McDowell and *The Reaper*. This final essay is an intimate portrait of the poet, one that enlightened me about Jarman's work and life. Are you unfamiliar with the Reaper? Jarman & McDowell, in their "Reaper" carnation are *very* dogmatic, *very* polemical. If Jarman has backed off in recent years, it probably has something to do with his recent tendency to break the Reaper's "non-negotiable demands" in his own poetry. These questions are not meant as a slam on Jarman-I've corresponded with him in the past and find him to be very charming, very gracious, and I admire a number of his poems. I'm just interested in your response. Tony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 17 18:32:40 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:32:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3E9ED726.6206.3BD39B@localhost> Message-ID: <00b301c30531$41f94f20$624dfea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > If that's so, you should be able to demonstrate it with examples.<< > > Did that. I missed it. Please repeat or direct me to your examples. > Bob Grumman: > > Indicate > > specifically what a taxonomy should have that mine does not have, for > > instance, or what it should do that mine does not do. << > > Did both of those. Not well. You should state precisely what a taxonomy should do, then quote from mine and show that it does not. You just say it does not, basically. > Bob Grumman: > > Or does ineffectively.<< > > Did that, too. > > Bob Grumman: > > You might start with a sane definition of "taxonomy" > > as an attempt to classify items in an orderly way according to the way they > > inter-relate, or the like.<< > > Did that several times. baloney. You've added irrelevancies. > What you offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set > of categories describing characteristics That's where you need to stop. The rest is hogwash you're making up. that are both non-volitional > and unchanging on a human scale of time that has predictive power for > inductions (that is, allows users to talk about inter-relations). Name one of my categories and show it does not do that. I will then show you that it does. > Poetry is simply neither non-volitional nor unchanging on > a human scale of time, and your list of categories can offer us no > predictive power to guide inductions about poetry. The purpose of my taxonomy is to allow people to distinguish various kinds of poems from one another in a general way. The aim is improved communication. Your "predictive power," etc., is irrelevant. If a taxonomy requires that, fine, then perhaps I'll have to name my system a poetry-distinguishing naming and inter-relating system. > But to call what you've got a taxonomy is to use "taxonomy" only as a > metaphor, not as a matter of scientific rigor. Do you intend this to > be metaphorical, or are you shooting for scientific rigor? Objectivity. Note: I just made a few changes to my . . . system you, I have to admit, were responsible for. I put in the word, "predominantly," in three places. I had not previously seen the necessity for it since I thought any fair reader would take it for granted--but I WOULD prefer that what I write take care of unfair readers like you, too. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 17 18:47:21 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:47:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The New Criterion Essays on poetry References: <005c01c30530$95587fc0$57301c40@Emily> Message-ID: <00d301c30533$4ec4d7e0$624dfea9@j1c1k6> I'm just curious, and not ready to argue much about it, but what do those of you who get the New Criterion think of the essays on poetry in the latest issue? I think they're among the most benighted I've ever seen--and not just because their authors obviously either know nothing of my kind of poetry or don't think it worth mentioning, but because they're so dogmatic and so backward-looking as to not even be able, for the most part, to grant conventional free verse value. One author, Dick Davis, says meter won't make a poem good, but you can't have a good poem without it. He thinks our pre-20th-century poetry exemplars should be Pope--and Christina Rosetti! Rather than Donne and Dickinson, whom he believes our present poets consider their pre-20th-century models. Another thinks what's important in a poem is how accurately it reveals its maker's soul. Or so I took him to say. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Thu Apr 17 20:51:04 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:51:04 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Jarman "Body and Soul" References: <005c01c30530$95587fc0$57301c40@Emily> Message-ID: <02d101c30544$981b3220$5b15e589@devbox> On Thursday, April 17, 2003 2:27 PM, Anthony Robinson spake thusly: > That said, nobody has ever been able to tell me > what's so great about his poetry-what does he do that someone else > hasn't done better? I've never had any luck with trying to make this kind of argument. Is it even possible to convince someone? It's like standing in front of a painting and one person says to the other "What's so great about it?" If you don't see it, you don't see it. I like Levine precisely because of his narrative style, he just seems to find (for me) the right words at the right time. Not every poem, but a good majority of them. If it's not your cup of tea, I don't know that I could convince you any more than I can talk and convince my daughter she should like mushrooms. It just ain't happening... c -- Chris Lott From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Apr 17 21:09:54 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:09:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's style In-Reply-To: <005c01c30530$95587fc0$57301c40@Emily> Message-ID: I'm quite fond of a lot of Philip Levine's poetry, including recent work, but I think it's worth noting that his style has changed greatly down the years. Not only did he begin as a Wintersian metrical poet, but he's been through a number of phases since then. Yes, his last few books have been growing ever more loose and prosey in style, as well as even more narrative, but when I look back on books like *1933* or *The Names of the Lost*, his handling of rhythm and line seems considerably different. Some examples. Here's an old one, from *They Feed They Lion* in 1972-- Salami Stomach of goat, crushed sheep balls, soft full pearls of pig eyes, snout gristle, fresh earth, worn iron of trotter, slate of Zaragoza, dried cat heart, cock claws. She grinds them with one hand and with the other fists mountain thyme, basil, paprika, and knobs of garlic. And if a tooth of stink thistle pulls blood from the round blue marbled hand all the better for this ruby of Pamplona, this bright jewel of Vich, this stained crown of Solsona, this salami. The daughter of mismatched eyes, 36 year old infant smelling of milk. Mama, she cries, mama, but mama is gone, and the old stone cutter must wipe the drool from her jumper. His puffed fingers unbutton and point her to toilet. Ten, twelve hours a day, as long as the winter sun hold up he rebuilds the unvisited church of San Martin. Cheep cheep of the hammer high above the town, sparrow cries lost in the wind or lost in the mind. At dusk he leans to the coal dull wooden Virgin and asks for blessings on the slow one and peace on his grizzled head, asks finally and each night for the forbidden, for the knowledge of every mysterious stone, and the words go out on the overwhelming incense of salami. A single crow passed high over the house, I wakened out of nightmare. The winds had changed, the Tremontana was tearing out of the Holy Mountains to meet the sea winds in my yard, burning and scaring the young pines. The single poplar wailed in terror. With salt, with guilt, with the need to die, the vestments of my life flared, I was on fire, a stranger staggering through my house butting walls and falling over furniture, looking for a way out. In the last room where moonlight slanted through a broken shutter I found my smallest son asleep or dead, floating on a bed of colorless light. When I leaned closer I could smell the small breaths going and coming, and each bore its prayer for me, the true and earthy prayer of salami. --Philip Levine ---------------------------------- From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Apr 17 21:31:02 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:31:02 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Levine's style References: Message-ID: <3E9F5555.711C8756@earthlink.net> Makes me want to climb into my overalls, chomp down on an onion, and cry. - Jim p.s. - plus beat some sheet metal David Graham wrote: > > I'm quite fond of a lot of Philip Levine's poetry, including recent > work, but I think it's worth noting that his style has changed greatly > down the years. Not only did he begin as a Wintersian metrical poet, > but he's been through a number of phases since then. Yes, his last > few books have been growing ever more loose and prosey in style, as > well as even more narrative, but when I look back on books like *1933* > or *The Names of the Lost*, his handling of rhythm and line seems > considerably different. > > Some examples. Here's an old one, from *They Feed They Lion* in > 1972-- > > Salami > > Stomach of goat, crushed > sheep balls, soft full > pearls of pig eyes, > snout gristle, fresh earth, > worn iron of trotter, slate > of Zaragoza, dried cat heart, > cock claws. She grinds > them with one hand and > with the other fists > mountain thyme, basil, > paprika, and knobs of garlic. > And if a tooth of stink thistle > pulls blood from the round > blue marbled hand > all the better for > this ruby of Pamplona, > this bright jewel of Vich, > this stained crown > of Solsona, this > salami. > The daughter > of mismatched eyes, > 36 year old infant smelling > of milk. Mama, she cries, mama, > but mama is gone, > and the old stone cutter > must wipe the drool > from her jumper. His puffed fingers > unbutton and point her > to toilet. Ten, twelve hours > a day, as long as the winter sun > hold up he rebuilds > the unvisited church > of San Martin. Cheep cheep > of the hammer high above > the town, sparrow cries > lost in the wind or lost > in the mind. At dusk he leans > to the coal dull wooden Virgin > and asks for blessings on > the slow one and peace > on his grizzled head, asks > finally and each night > for the forbidden, for > the knowledge of every > mysterious stone, and > the words go out on > the overwhelming incense > of salami. > A single crow > passed high over the house, > I wakened out of nightmare. > The winds had changed, > the Tremontana was tearing > out of the Holy Mountains > to meet the sea winds > in my yard, burning and > scaring the young pines. > The single poplar wailed > in terror. With salt, > with guilt, with the need > to die, the vestments > of my life flared, I > was on fire, a stranger > staggering through my house > butting walls and falling > over furniture, looking > for a way out. In the last room > where moonlight slanted > through a broken shutter > I found my smallest son > asleep or dead, floating > on a bed of colorless light. > When I leaned closer > I could smell the small breaths > going and coming, and each > bore its prayer for me, > the true and earthy prayer > of salami. > --Philip Levine > ---------------------------------- > > >From 1979's *7 Years from Somewhere*-- > > You Can Have It > > My brother comes home from work > and climbs the stairs to our room. > I can hear the bed groan and his shoes drop > one by one. You can have it, he says. > > The moonlight streams in the window > and his unshaven face is whitened > like the face of the moon. He will sleep > long after noon and waken to find me gone. > > Thirty years will pass before I remember > that moment when suddenly I knew each man > has one brother who dies when he sleeps > and sleeps when he rises to face this life, > > and that together they are only one man > sharing a heart that always labours, hands > yellowed and cracked, a mouth that gasps > for breath and asks, Am I gonna make it? > > All night at the ice plant he had fed > the chute its silvery blocks, and then I > stacked cases of orange soda for the children > of Kentucky, one gray boxcar at a time > > with always two more waiting. We were twenty > for such a short time and always in > the wrong clothes, crusted with dirt > and sweat. I think now we were never twenty. > > In 1948 the city of Detroit, founded > by de la Mothe Cadillac for the distant purposes > of Henry Ford, no one wakened or died, > no one walked the streets or stoked a furnace, > > for there was no such year, and now > that year has fallen off all the old newspapers, > calanders, doctors' appointments, bonds > wedding certificates, drivers licenses. > > The city slept. The snow turned to ice. > The ice to standing pools or rivers > racing in the gutters. Then the bright grass rose > between the thousands of cracked squares, > > and that grass died. I give you back 1948. > I give you all the years from then > to the coming one. Give me back the moon > with its frail light falling across a face. > > Give me back my young brother, hard > and furious, with wide shoulders and a curse > for God and burning eyes that look upon > all creation and say, You can have it. > > Philip Levine > --------------------------------------- > > And the title poem of *The Mercy* from 1999-- > > The Mercy > > The ship that took my mother to Ellis Island > eighty-three years ago was named "The Mercy." > She remembers trying to eat a banana > without first peeling it and seeing her first orange > in the hand of a young Scot, a seaman > who gave her a bite and wiped her mouth for her > with a red bandana and taught her the word, > "orange," saying it patiently over and over. > A long autumn voyage, the days darkening > with the black waters calming as night came on, > then nothing as far as her eyes could see and space > without limit rushing off to the corners > of creation. She prayed in Russian and Yiddish > to find her family in New York, prayers > unheard or perhaps misunderstood or perhaps ignored > by all the powers that swept the waves of darkness > before she woke, that kept "The Mercy" afloat > while smallpox raged among the passengers > and crew until the dead were buried at sea > with strange prayers in a tongue she could not fathom. > "The Mercy," I read on the yellowing pages of a book > I located in a windowless room of the library > on 42nd Street, sat thirty-one days > offshore in quarantine before the passengers > disembarked. There a story ends. Other ships > arrived, "Tancred" out of Glasgow, "The Neptune" > registered as Danish, "Umberto IV," > the list goes on for pages, November gives > way to winter, the sea pounds this alien shore. > Italian miners from Piemonte dig > under towns in Western Pennsylvania > only to rediscover the same nightmare > they left at home. A nine-year-old girl travels > all night by train with one suitcase and an orange. > She learns that mercy is something you can eat > again and again while the juice spills over > your chin, you can wipe it away with the back > of your hands and you can never get enough. > > --Philip Levine > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > What1s interesting about this argument? Narrative, per se, > doesn1t hurt or help verse, in my opinion. It1s simply a > tool, a technique. Levine1s poetry makes me powerful bored > because it1s so prosey (w/the exception of one poem?3They > Feed They Lion2), so same-seeming, so, well, boring. I1ve > tried, tried, tried, to read him, but I just can1t make it > very far. That said, nobody has ever been able to tell me > what1s so great about his poetry?what does he do that > someone else hasn1t done better? That said, I must admit > that I think he1s a very chaming personage in interviews and > proseS From JforJames at aol.com Thu Apr 17 21:27:10 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:27:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of Unknowing (JforJame... Message-ID: <161.1ed89857.2bd0ae6e@aol.com> In a message dated 4/17/03 4:07:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, elemenope at icubed.com writes: > But my credentials aren't the issue here. Merwin's hypocrisy and > resultant inauthentic poetry is the problem. (I lump Merwin, > Robbins, Gerafalo, GG into the same dissident group, just for the > record.) > > Get back on topic, Mr. Finnegan. Anonymous poster who addresses me formally, you're correct. My last post was too personal...and thus unfair. I've been irked by your posts to the list...but that's a poor excuse for questioning your mental compass (which, as all can tell, finds true north always well to the right of center). The only credentials I'm interested in are those evidenced by pertinent posts to this list. You've said nothing related directly to poetry/poetics (our topic) that I can recall. The occasional outlandish outburst attacking this or that poet, based solely on political bent, certainly doesn't count. Finnegan From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Apr 17 21:40:46 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 20:40:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Levine's style In-Reply-To: <3E9F5555.711C8756@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Funny, it makes *me* climb into my onion, chomp the beat, plus cry my overalls. . . . Flarf-D Sheetmetal ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > From: James Cervantes > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:31:02 -0700 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Levine's style > > Makes me want to climb into my overalls, chomp down on an onion, and cry. > > - Jim > > p.s. - plus beat some sheet metal > From JforJames at aol.com Thu Apr 17 21:52:55 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:52:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Baghdad, Flarf etc Message-ID: <194.17ceb799.2bd0b477@aol.com> In a message dated 4/17/03 12:26:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu writes: > Flarf" as a concept, suggestive of a > movement, etc., in the first place. There were those among us who shrewdly > warned about the dangers of such a move?Katie Degentesh, for example. The > truth is, Flarf is not a movement, never was, because it has no principles > as > such, beyond some characteristic compositional techniques that developed > along > the way (collaging Google search-engine results, etc.)**** The flarf phenomenon parallels Billy Collins' goofing with extreme and dogmatic formalism by inventing the form ______ (help me here, I forgot the name already), which took on a life of its own, & spawned a special issue of a litmag devoted to that form, ______ (let's just call it formal flarf). Finnegan From antrobin at clipper.net Thu Apr 17 22:01:54 2003 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 19:01:54 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] levine & mushrooms In-Reply-To: <02d101c30544$981b3220$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <006b01c3054e$80293cc0$57301c40@Emily> Chris, I don't like mushrooms either. Does your daughter like Levine? Tony If it's not your cup of tea, I don't know that I could convince you any more than I can talk and convince my daughter she should like mushrooms. It just ain't happening... c -- Chris Lott _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Apr 17 22:04:49 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:04:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Baghdad, Flarf etc In-Reply-To: <194.17ceb799.2bd0b477@aol.com> Message-ID: Colllins's goofy faux-form is the paradelle. His explanation of it: "one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century. It is a poem of four six-line stanzas in which the first and second lines, as well as the third and fourth lines of the first three stanzas, must be identical. The fifth and sixth lines, which traditionally resolve these stanzas, must use all the words from the preceding lines and only those words. Similarly, the final stanza must use every word from all the preceding stanzas and only those words." If anyone wants to see some examples of the form: http://www.geocities.com/prospero2u/archparadelle.html ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > The flarf phenomenon parallels Billy Collins' goofing with > extreme and dogmatic formalism by inventing > the form ______ (help me here, I forgot the name already), > which took on a life of its own, & spawned a special issue of > a litmag devoted to that form, ______ (let's just call it formal flarf). > Finnegan > From chris at chrislott.org Thu Apr 17 22:41:19 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:41:19 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] levine & mushrooms References: <006b01c3054e$80293cc0$57301c40@Emily> Message-ID: <004701c30554$01dd06c0$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Thursday, April 17, 2003 6:01 PM, Anthony Robinson spake thusly: > Chris, > > I don't like mushrooms either. Does your daughter like Levine? Nope. And this is a critical theory well worth examining... any grad students needing thesis material here? c -- Chris Lott From JforJames at aol.com Thu Apr 17 23:03:58 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:03:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Jarman "Body and Soul" Message-ID: <48.1b6b9934.2bd0c51e@aol.com> In a message dated 4/17/03 6:29:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, antrobin at clipper.net writes: > Levine's > poetry makes me powerful bored because it's so prosey (w/the exception > of one poem-"They Feed They Lion"), so same-seeming, so, well, boring. > I've tried, tried, tried, to read him, but I just can't make it very > far. That said, nobody has ever been able to tell me what's so great > about his poetry-what does he do that someone else hasn't done better? Tony, first of all, I come from a point of view that puts poetic prose and verse on one continuum of what poetry is. Certainly you're not saying you mistake Levine's poetry for the prose you find in newspaper column? Early on Levine was tutored by Yvor Winters, John Berryman...we can trust Levine knows the difference better a prose line and verse, and all the stops in between. Here are a few points in Levine's favor... 1) His heart is in the right place (with the schmo & the mench). 2) His poetry is often visceral and sensual. His vocabulary is a well-laden argosy, its holds full of nouns, verbs and adjectives that have both good heft and fine texture. 3) He has a gift for the felicitous phrase...and lots of rhetorical panache. He can make me believe rust is just another shade of gold. As to, "what does he do that someone else hasn't done better?," I can't exactly say...I don't see him as cut from someone else's burlap sack. You mention Jarman: one of his early poems "The Black Riviera" probably owes a debt to Levine. Levine is one who established his own territory, by stomping and pissing around the borders, a territory defined first by obsession with a certain subject matter and, second, by virtue of his style in all its inglorious glamour. Finnegan From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Thu Apr 17 23:39:08 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:39:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Baghdad, Flarf etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1050637147.3e9f735c087b3@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> David and Finnegan, while I can see how one would draw this comparison, I don't think it pans out. Flarf - as represented by the work of the writers involved - is pretty insistently NOT parodic. There are exceptions of course (my recent "New McPoem" being one obvious case) but by and large Flarfistas are interested in new forms made available through the langauge and technology associated with the internet (though not exclusive to it). Poking fun at the pieties of old forms is, if anything, a very minor side-interest. Something like Mohammad's DEER HEAD NATION couldn't be further from the hum-drum humorism of Collins's effects. Since I can't post something of his, I'll post one more of mine which perhaps supports these claims more clearly than "Blowback." It's from a series of "Fascist Fairytales" I wrote earlier this year by searching the names of famous fascists alongside unlikely second-terms and then creating poems with what appeared at hand. Whatever one thinks of a poem like this, an analogy to Collins's seems to me impossible. The poem may be comic but I'm serious as a heart attack. Perhaps Burke's notion of "planned incongruity" helps explain what I'm after. FASCIST FAIRYTALES (1) Surreal Mother Goose rhymes had wanted to acheive open insurrection against Franco told in the medieval form of the bestiary of age in the repressive Spain of the Franco. "Give that man a feather boa ... How'd we get this way?" De Niro finally bleats to the clueless Franco. "Jesus, pal, you explain it to us," bewailing the decline of the feather boa. The stratosphere of an avant-garde society that has twenty years since celebrated the end of the Franco Fourteen-foot trails of feather boa head gear, also includes Il Trovatore. Hoover, J. Edgar, Red Feather Boa. "It?s not consistent with what a terrorist would want to achieve." Her first day inappropriately dressed in white jeans & fluffy feather boa. People? Football. It is entertaining to imagine him strangling Elton John with a feather boa designed and directed by old-timer Franco. Change of Heart? The ship weighing two tonnes each, were recovered Six Feet Under, dressed as a stripper?s feather boa. "What was our plan again?" Poppy Franco surveys the lawn and cocks. The rabbit pauses at the sight of Poppy Franco, trembles as she angles a finger over Leatherberry of Hair Arts & Sciences, who won the Career Achievement Award: a zebra print jacket and a feather boa. "Always put your uniform on top." When you go to the gym in bright neons, knee-high boots, and a feather boa holding a feather ... come roaring in and sigh "Pierre, Jacques, Franco" ? who, by the way, sounds much like many other pencil necks defined by Franco! Fun. The water-pistol and this image are adorned with attractive features including an enormous frontman (often performs in a southern gentleman's suit adorned with a feather boa) and the rape scene dress (without the feather boa!!) -m. Quoting David Graham : > Colllins's goofy faux-form is the paradelle. His explanation of it: > > "one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century. It is a poem of four six-line > stanzas in which the first and second lines, as well as the third and fourth > lines of the first three stanzas, must be identical. The fifth and sixth > lines, which traditionally resolve these stanzas, must use all the words > from the preceding lines and only those words. Similarly, the final stanza > must use every word from all the preceding stanzas and only those words." > > If anyone wants to see some examples of the form: > > http://www.geocities.com/prospero2u/archparadelle.html > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > The flarf phenomenon parallels Billy Collins' goofing with > > extreme and dogmatic formalism by inventing > > the form ______ (help me here, I forgot the name already), > > which took on a life of its own, & spawned a special issue of > > a litmag devoted to that form, ______ (let's just call it formal flarf). > > Finnegan > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From sellwein at hotmail.com Fri Apr 18 01:54:23 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 01:54:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Baghdad, Flarf etc Message-ID: This would give me a major migraine just trying to find a way out. Collins's goofy faux-form is the paradelle. His explanation of it: "one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century. It is a poem of four six-line stanzas in which the first and second lines, as well as the third and fourth lines of the first three stanzas, must be identical. The fifth and sixth lines, which traditionally resolve these stanzas, must use all the words from the preceding lines and only those words. Similarly, the final stanza must use every word from all the preceding stanzas and only those words." If anyone wants to see some examples of the form: http://www.geocities.com/prospero2u/archparadelle.html ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Apr 18 09:31:09 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:31:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: 5 by Raymond Queneau Message-ID: Alexandrines One midday in the bus--the S-line was its ilk-- I saw a little runt, a miserable milk-- Sop, voicing discontent, although around his turban He had a plaited cord, this fancy-pants suburban. Now hear what he complained of, this worm-metamorphosis With disproportionate neck, suffering from halitosis: --A citizen standing near him who'd come to man's estate Was constantly refusing to circumnavigate His toes, each time a chap got in the bus and rode, Panting, and late for lunch, towards his chaste abode. But scandal was there none; this sorry personage Espied a vacant seat--made thither quick pilgrimage. As I was going back towards the Latin Quarter I saw him once again, the youth of milk-and-water. And heard his foppish friend telling him with dispassion: "The opening of your coat is not the latest fashion." Sonnet Glabrous was his dial and plaited was his bonnet, And he, a puny colt--(how sad the neck he bore, And long)--was now intent on his quotidian chore-- The bus arriving full, of somehow getting on it. One came, a number ten--or else perhaps an S, Its platform, small adjunct of this plebeian carriage, Was crammed with such a mob as to preclude free passage; Rich bastards lit cigars upon it, to impress. The young giraffe described so well in my first strophe, Having got on the bus, started at once to curse an Innocent citizen--(he wanted an easy trophy But got the worst of it.) Then, spying a vacant place, Escaped thereto. Time passed. One the way back, a person Was telling him that a button was just too low in space. Haiku Summer S long neck plait hat toes abuse retreat station button friend Free Verse the bus full the heart empty the neck long the ribbon plaited the feet flat flat and flattened the place vacant and the unexpected meeting near the station with its thousand extinguished lights of that heart, of that neck, of that ribbon, of those feet, of that vacant place, and of that button. Ode O in the bus O in the bin th'yomnibus S th'yomnibussin which with percuss and hellish din goes on its way with us within nearth' Parc Monceau nearth' Parc Monsin in the sun's glow in the sun's glin Monsieur Andr? whose neck's too thin wears a hatuss wears a hatin in th'yomnibus in th'yomnibin And this hatuss and this hatin is ribbonless is ribbonlin in th'yomnibus in th'yomnibin and what is muss and what is min there's an excess of bods therein and this Andr? whose neck's too thin starts to inveigh starts to invin against a cuss against a kin in th'yomnibus in th'yomnibin but this same cuss but this same kin za bit too tuss za bit too tin and says his say and says his sin on th'yomnibus on th'yomnibin and our Andr? whose neck's too thin goes by express goes by exprin in the bus S in the bussin a seat to let his arse sink in A seat I'd let my arse sink in I the poet gay Harlequin and two hours a- fter I saw him at Saint-Lazare at Saint-Lazin the station? yeah so spick and spin him, that's Andr? whose neck's too thin I heard him say "O pardon min my dear old pay my dear old pin for my buttuss for my buttin" quite near the bus quite near the bin Now if by cha- ncetmy tale you grin since happiness was born a twin than take no res- tand take no rin until from far until from finn from the bus S from the bussin you too your eyes should chance to spin on that Andr? whose neck's too thin & his hatuss & his hatin & his buttuss & his buttin in th'yomnibus in th'yomnibus th'yomnibus S th'yomnibussin. --Raymond Queneau, tr. Barbara Wright fr. *Exercises in Style* [New York: New Directions, 1981] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Apr 18 11:28:16 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:28:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] iraqi protesters out in force against U-SUK forces Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030418102501.0187bc08@mail.ilstu.edu> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2959015.stm 2 it-people had been accusing Hussein of "forcing" protesters out into the streets ginst U-SUK forces. interesting to see, now that Hussein is gone and the Baathists dismasted, interesting to see people still protesting. Hmm. Jeepers. Maybe Hussein is using mind-control. From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Apr 18 11:32:25 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:32:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty)F(at)A(ss) Message-ID: The latest *Poets & Writers* [May/June] features an essay by Eric McHenry ("Imperative: An Anti Anti-MFA Manifesto") that serves up the best response I've seen to David Alpaugh, Neal Bowers, Dana Gioia and other recent critics who feel that the MFA establishment has harmed contemporary poetry. For many weary readers, I suppose, the whole issue is roadkill and best avoided, but I was happy to see such a lucid, skeptical, and careful examination of attitudes that, simply by being repeated so often, have in many minds already solidified into dogma. As McHenry puts it, "This contempt [for the MFA and all it represents] is so widespread, and so deeply felt, that it has created a minor publishing phenomenon: the anti-MFA manifesto. David Alpaugh's two-part essay 'The Professionalization of Poetry' . . . is only the latest contribution to a mini-genre that will probably have its own Best American Series before long." McHenry does justice to the kernels of truth embedded within the typical hyperbole and sweeping generalizations of the MFA-bashers, but he also points out some important internal contradictions, questionable assumptions, slippery logic, and unmentioned facts. I'll give one fairly lengthy sample, and one smaller one, then urge folks to look at the whole essay. Here McHenry is taking apart Alpaugh's contention that the academy in recent decades has somehow produced a glut of particularly bad poetry, with reference to two of Alpaugh's main complaints, that poems today are too prosy and that they're too confessional-- "It's also hard to see what, precisely, the problem is. I'd place the defictionalized free-verse lyrics of Jane Kenyon and William Matthews next to anything in American letters, and Alpaugh himself acknowledges the brilliance of Russell Edson's prose poems, so the problem can't be inherent in the forms themselves. Nor can the problem be that most new poetry is mediocre, because most new poetry is always mediocre. The problem must be . . . that we are 'producing a new kind of bad poetry.' . . . Alpaugh has no case against creative writing programs if he can't demonstrate that the poets they produce are, on balance, worse than the poets of fifty or a hundred years ago. I'm not sure how one would go about proving such a thing, but it isn't the way Alpaugh chooses. His attempts all involve the same fallacy that vitiated the first half of his essay: the unrepresentative sample. He's constantly comparing the most exceptional poets of the past with the most unexceptional poets of the present, bouncing between praise for the achievements of Plath and Ginsberg and dismay over 'much of the poetry coming from the profession.' In no way is this an instructive juxtaposition. Most of today's poets are not Plath, it's true, but most of the poets of Plath's day were not Plath, either. And anyway, Plath was a workshop alumna." Among many other sensible points, McHenry also mentions one of my main complaints against Alpaugh & others, the odd fantasy that all or even most contemporary poets *are*, in fact, institutionalized within the presumably cozy and otherworldly realm of the MFA program. As McHenry puts it, "here in the United States, the university can't begin to employ the poets it educates--20,000 MFA recipients every decade, by Gioia's own estimate--let alone all the rest of them. Gioia's determination to see the university as something isolated from and opposed to 'the general culture' is bizarre, in light of the way most people actually experience it--as a place they pass through on their way to somewhere else. Academia doesn't steal poets; it gives them a little time and space in which to study poetry and then releases them back into the general culture, where they're free to participate in whatever populist revivals might appeal to their interests." I would add that most poets who remain within the academy obviously don't wind up teaching at the big MFA programs. So to the degree that any "institutionalization" of poetry does exist, it is a lot more complicated than the polemicists want to have it. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Apr 18 11:30:25 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:30:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] here it is!: the weapons have been found!! Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030418102905.0188a988@mail.ilstu.edu> (psych)Captured Iraqi scientists state no WMDs http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/ITeamInsider.html#iraqguys From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Apr 18 10:47:59 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 09:47:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baghdad, Flarf etc In-Reply-To: <194.17ceb799.2bd0b477@aol.com> Message-ID: on 4/17/03 8:52 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/17/03 12:26:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu writes: > >> Flarf" as a concept, suggestive of a >> movement, etc., in the first place. There were those among us who > shrewdly >> warned about the dangers of such a move?Katie Degentesh, for example. The >> truth is, Flarf is not a movement, never was, because it has no principles >> as >> such, beyond some characteristic compositional techniques that developed >> along >> the way (collaging Google search-engine results, etc.)**** > The flarf phenomenon parallels Billy Collins' goofing with > extreme and dogmatic formalism by inventing > the form ______ (help me here, I forgot the name already), > which took on a life of its own, & spawned a special issue of > a litmag devoted to that form, ______ (let's just call it formal flarf). > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > I think the Collins form was called a "paradel," though I'm less sure if I've spelled it right. Paul --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Apr 18 11:28:20 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:28:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baghdad, Flarf etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { I think the Collins form was called a "paradel," though I'm less sure if { I've spelled it right. { { Paul Sure it wasn't a paradiddle? Hal "I would like the world to know that I am a poet first and a would-be assassin last." --John W. Hinckley, Jr. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Apr 18 12:59:20 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 11:59:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] iraqi protesters out in force against U-SUK forces In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030418102501.0187bc08@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: ?????Cheering the enemy Top Stories ?????Gary Kamiya, executive editor of the left-leaning Internet journal Salon (www.salon.com), confirms what some Americans have only suspected: Liberals were cheering for the enemy in Iraq. ?????"I have a confession: I have at times, as the war has unfolded, secretly wished for things to go wrong," Mr. Kamiya wrote last week. "Wished for the Iraqis to be more nationalistic, to resist longer. Wished for the Arab world to rise up in rage. Wished for all the things we feared would happen. I'm not alone: A number of serious, intelligent, morally sensitive people who oppose the war have told me they have had identical feelings." ?????More casualties would have been a preferred alternative to the "larger moral negative" of a victory that boosted President Bush's chances for re-election, he said. ?????"Many antiwar commentators have argued that once the war started, even those who oppose it must now wish for the quickest, least-bloody victory followed by the maximum possible liberation of the Iraqi people," he wrote. "But there is one argument against this: What if you are convinced that an easy victory will ultimately result in a larger moral negative ? four more years of Bush, for example, with attendant disastrous policies, or the betrayal of the Palestinians to eternal occupation, or more imperialist meddling in the Middle East or elsewhere? ?????"Wishing for things to go wrong is the logical corollary of the postulate that the better things go for Bush, the worse they will go for America and the rest of the world." >From "Inside Politics," WT on 4/18/03 10:28 AM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2959015.stm > > 2 it-people had been accusing Hussein of "forcing" protesters out into the > streets ginst U-SUK forces. interesting to see, now that Hussein is gone > and the Baathists dismasted, interesting to see people still protesting. > Hmm. Jeepers. Maybe Hussein is using mind-control. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Apr 18 12:55:49 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 12:55:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Corpse Found Alive by Roadside" Message-ID: Corpse Found Alive by Roadside (in Satisfactory Condition at Local Hospital) Banned songs are now coming back. For details, read our in-depth and investigative reports. Local high school, leveraging its academic strengths, can raise new funds via bake sales and raffles. Forensic anthropology now a growth field, say many academics, already meeting with small groups of anthropoids. Librarians seeking to find new uses for abandoned catalog cards. Cut them into strips and use them for bookmarks, some say. Political science clubs seek to define desirable qualities in future presidents, if any. Regional incantation centers rely on semi-skilled manufacturing. New poll shows nine out of ten Hoosiers hate the word "Hoosier." (Continues on G4) Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JackTar at aol.com Fri Apr 18 13:58:10 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:58:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] here it is!: the weapons have been found!! Message-ID: <143.f218199.2bd196b2@aol.com> In a message dated 4/18/2003 11:36:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > (psych)Captured Iraqi scientists state no WMDs > > That's because they have been moved into Syria. This is from a past weapons inspector or ambassador who spoke with Tariq Azzis(?) who stated that there were no WMDs within the regional boundaries of Iraq. This is from a report on NPR yesterday on All Things Considered. I believe I heard it on KERA while driving through the Dallas Ft. Worth area. duncan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JackTar at aol.com Fri Apr 18 13:58:08 2003 From: JackTar at aol.com (JackTar at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 13:58:08 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] iraqi protesters out in force against U-SUK forces Message-ID: <17f.19cb8cde.2bd196b0@aol.com> In a message dated 4/18/2003 11:32:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > 2 it-people had been accusing Hussein of "forcing" protesters out into the > streets ginst U-SUK forces. interesting to see, now that Hussein is gone > and the Baathists dismasted, interesting to see people still protesting. > Hmm. Jeepers. Maybe Hussein is using mind-control. > > maybe they are hedging their bets in case he or his henchmen or those of this ilk show up again. mind control is a pretty insidious tool. once it's gained a grip on ones mind it isn't something that readily washes of like dirt. it's like layers of dirt firmly engrained within and as one layer is cleaned another layer surfaces. time is a better method to use in determining if it's real or if it's memorex. duncan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 18 14:10:25 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 14:10:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <00b301c30531$41f94f20$624dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EA00751.2932.15D3334@localhost> > > Bob Grumman: > > > Indicate specifically what a taxonomy should have that mine > > > does not have, for instance, or what it should do that mine > > > does not do. << Marcus Bales: > > Did both of those.<< Bob Grumman: >... You should state precisely what a > taxonomy should do, then quote from mine and show that it does not. You > just say it does not, basically.< That's because my critique of your supposed taxonomy is that it is not science. You don't even CLAIM predictive value for it. You're using the terms of science to try to add weight to a non-scientific opinion. With your denial that you intend your set of categories to have predictive value you have destroyed any possible claim to your work being a "taxonomy". Your collection of categories is not a taxonomy because you seem to be confused about what a scientific taxonomy is in the first place; your collection of cateogies is no more science than astrology or phrenology is science. You're using the terms and forms of science fallaciously -- you're doing pseudo-science as long as you're making a scientific claim. You are, in short, wrong. Now, if you're using the term "taxonomy" in a metaphorical instead of a scientific sense, you are under some obligation to make that clear, to make sure that your readers understand that you're NOT making a scientific claim, that you intend to make no predictions from your categories, and that you know that there can be no predictions made by your readers from your categories. Marcus Bales: > > What you offer is not a taxonomy because a taxonomy is an ordered set > > of categories describing characteristics Bob Grumman: > That's where you need to stop. The rest is hogwash you're making up.< No, Bob -- not unless you're going to be explicitly clear that your "taxonomy" is merely a metaphor, and that it has no scientific rigor, makes no scientific claims, has no predictive value, and is nothing more than your personal opinion of how to talk about poetry. Bob Grumman: > The purpose of my taxonomy is to allow people to distinguish various kinds > of poems from one another in a general way. The aim is improved > communication. Your "predictive power," etc., is irrelevant.<< You are contradicting yourself: if you expect people to distinguish one poem from another, or kinds of poems from other kinds, they MUST be able to "predict" what kind of poem they're reading. They have to be able to look at the characteristics of the poem and see from those where it fits among your categories; more, they have to be RIGHT when they make those inferences, and more yet nearly 100% of all readers who read the poem have to AGREE with the categorization -- IF you want to think of your categories as "a scientific taxonomy". If, however, you are using "taxonomy" merely metaphorically, then you have a duty to explain that it's useless to predict anything, and that it's merely your personal opinion. Bob Grumman: > If a taxonomy requires that, fine, then perhaps I'll have to > name my system a poetry-distinguishing naming and inter-relating system.<< Yep, that's what it requires, and that's what you're going to have to do -- but why not just do what everyone else does and call it "an anthology"? Marcus Bales: > > But to call what you've got a taxonomy is to use "taxonomy" only as a > > metaphor, not as a matter of scientific rigor. Do you intend this to > > be metaphorical, or are you shooting for scientific rigor? Bob Grumman: > Objectivity. Well, Bob, define "objectivity". It seems to me that you'd have to be able to get nearly 100% of readers to agree on the categories, and you'd have to have predictive power in your categories, before you could claim any kind of objectivity -- but you explicitly deny that there is any predictive power in your categories, so you've contradicted yourself again if you are claiming that your categories are "objective". They are nothing of the kind. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 18 15:05:51 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 15:05:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3EA00751.2932.15D3334@localhost> Message-ID: <005301c305dd$88415480$c6fdfea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > The purpose of my taxonomy is to allow people to distinguish various kinds > > of poems from one another in a general way. The aim is improved > > communication. Your "predictive power," etc., is irrelevant.<< > > You are contradicting yourself: if you expect people to distinguish > one poem from another, or kinds of poems from other kinds, they MUST > be able to "predict" what kind of poem they're reading. They have to > be able to look at the characteristics of the poem and see from those > where it fits among your categories; Right--SEE where it fits. Not PREDICT as I've ever used it. >more, they have to be RIGHT when > they make those inferences, and more yet nearly 100% of all readers > who read the poem have to AGREE with the categorization -- IF you > want to think of your categories as "a scientific taxonomy". It's a taxonomy that allows poems to be fit into it as readily as any taxonomy will--which is not 100% of the time but reasonably close to it. I suggest we drop the term "scientific" as a trivial side issue. > If, however, you are using "taxonomy" merely metaphorically, then you > have a duty to explain that it's useless to predict anything, and > that it's merely your personal opinion. If you had even looked at my taxonomy, you would know that it's what just about anyone would call a taxonomy--though it does not (for the most part) allow predictions to be made in any common understanding of the term, "predictions." > Bob Grumman: > > If a taxonomy requires that, fine, then perhaps I'll have to > > name my system a poetry-distinguishing naming and inter-relating system.<< > > Yep, that's what it requires, and that's what you're going to have to > do -- but why not just do what everyone else does and call it "an > anthology"? Perhaps because it isn't? At this time, it has no poems in it. > Marcus Bales: > > > But to call what you've got a taxonomy is to use "taxonomy" only as a > > > metaphor, not as a matter of scientific rigor. Do you intend this to > > > be metaphorical, or are you shooting for scientific rigor? > > Bob Grumman: > > Objectivity. > > Well, Bob, define "objectivity". It seems to me that you'd have to > be able to get nearly 100% of readers to agree on the categories, and > you'd have to have predictive power in your categories, before you > could claim any kind of objectivity -- but you explicitly deny that > there is any predictive power in your categories, so you've > contradicted yourself again if you are claiming that your categories > are "objective". They are nothing of the kind. > > Marcus Bales You're playing trivial word games. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Fri Apr 18 18:10:04 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:10:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty)F(at)A(ss) Message-ID: <110.229938c5.2bd1d1bc@aol.com> In a message dated 4/18/03 11:35:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > Alpaugh has no > case against creative writing programs if he can't demonstrate that the > poets they produce are, on balance, worse than the poets of fifty or a > hundred years ago. > I'm not sure how one would go about proving such a thing, but it isn't > the way Alpaugh chooses. David, yes...McHenry has shown how thin & groundless their arguments are. Something he could have highlighted more is that there must be some real differences in praxis and the exemplary texts being taught among programs like New School, Boston Univ., Naropa, NYU, Arkansas, etc. The experience of low-residency MFA students must also be quite different. (More of these programs rolling out each year Fairleigh Dickinson U; Lesley U. in Boston...) With the latter, you don't even have to quit your day job... which should make Alpaugh happy. Poets like Stevens & Eliot could have taken an MFA on the side, while they continued to have all that deeply enriching life experience in insurance & banking which has so informed their work. Another little quote I enjoyed: He [Gioia] and critics like him love to quote Walt Whitman saying, "To have great poetry, there must be great audiences, too," to which I always imagine Emily Dickinson replying, "Oh, really?" -- Finnegan From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 18 18:53:53 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:53:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty)F(at)A(ss) References: <110.229938c5.2bd1d1bc@aol.com> Message-ID: <00a701c305fd$65175ac0$c6fdfea9@j1c1k6> > Another little quote I enjoyed: > He [Gioia] and critics like him love to quote Walt Whitman > saying, "To have great poetry, there must be great audiences, > too," to which I always imagine Emily Dickinson replying, > "Oh, really?" > -- > Finnegan I don't think it's true, myself, BUT having great audiences needn't mean just audiences that appreciate one's own work, or even ALL the best work that is out there, but an audience for one's art as a whole that seems capable of at least eventually liking what one does. Where I think Gioia is wrong is in equating great audiences with large audiences. --Bob G. _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Apr 18 19:48:37 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 16:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty)F(at)A(ss) Message-ID: <20030418234837.457613A63@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Apr 18 20:10:06 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 17:10:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: that paradelle thing References: <20030418234837.457613A63@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <3EA093DE.12633731@earthlink.net> My Paradelle Is Not Billy Collins' Paradelle* We went for a stroll in the garden of information. We went for a stroll in the garden of disinformation. The oak tree dropped leaves, the oak tree dropped lies. The oak tree leafed out in lies, the oak tree dropped truth. Such a tree cannot live and lie at the same time, such a tree cannot inform and misinform in the same life with the same lie. Poopy did his thing behind the dying dogwood tree. Poopy died as the dogwood stepped forth to hide death. Millicent said the clear path was now hidden and ruined. Millicent meant gravel is not grass, that acorns are not glass. Two kinds of trees, two kinds of paths are the problems we faced: gravel and grass may mix and cross, whereas two lying trees cannot. Afternoon presented an art show and a flea market; thus the afternoon revealed a craft fair and a yard sale. Many people walked by, stopped, and walked on; many cars slowed. Many cars sped off, driven by people who had walked on to find them. Some people make such a show of art that we stop to itch and scratch. Some people are craftily driven, running as they walk, speeding off to stop. All worlds repeat themselves, as do certain words in topical conversations, or forests of conical conifers in tropical settings. Over and over, grasses wave and part for those moving slowly or hastily to lie down. What do they tell themselves or another? Possibly the same thing every time, yes or no most likely included, love as noun or verb, and one or both departing. - Jim * In this form of the paradelle, the demanding though boring task of repeated words is abandoned in lieu of similar or anthithetical concepts, though the final precept is for the most part observed, with the exception of unavoidable conjunctions and prepositions; if you can avoid those, I doff my hat to you. There are, of course, other subtleties that observe or ignore Collins' definition: "one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century. It is a poem of four six-line stanzas in which the first and second lines, as well as the third and fourth lines of the first three stanzas, must be identical. The fifth and sixth lines, which traditionally resolve these stanzas, must use all the words from the preceding lines and only those words. Similarly, the final stanza must use every word from all the preceding stanzas and only those words." p.s. - e-mail formats may lop off some line endings ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Apr 18 21:31:13 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 01:31:13 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <200304190129.h3J1TRST022433@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Marcus Bales: > You are contradicting yourself: if you expect people to distinguish > one poem from another, or kinds of poems from other kinds, they MUST > be able to "predict" what kind of poem they're reading. They have to > be able to look at the characteristics of the poem and see from those > where it fits among your categories; Bob Grumman: > Right--SEE where it fits. Not PREDICT as I've ever used it.< This is a trivial word game if ever there was one. The reader has to be able to see a bit of it and predict where it will fit, just as an observer can see a nipple and say "Aha! This is going to turn out to be a mammal!" That's what taxonomies are FOR, that's what they DO -- and since you yourself claim that yours cannot and ought not do that, you cannot reasonably call it a taxonomy -- you have nothing more than a collection of categories that you're metaphorically calling a taxonomy, or you have a pseudo-scientific batch of nonsense on the order of astrology and phrenology if you insist that you are trying to make an objective, scientific taxonomy. Marcus Bales: > more, they have to be RIGHT when > they make those inferences, and more yet nearly 100% of all readers > who read the poem have to AGREE with the categorization -- IF you > want to think of your categories as "a scientific taxonomy".<0 Bob Grumman: > It's a taxonomy that allows poems to be fit into it as readily as any > taxonomy will--which is not 100% of the time but reasonably close to it. I > suggest we drop the term "scientific" as a trivial side issue.< It's neither trivial nor a side issue: you CALL it "a taxonomy", which is a scientific term. You're either trying to use the heft of a scientific term to lend weight to your pseudo-scientific nonsense or you're using the scientific term in a metaphorical way that you have to be up front about in a way you haven't yet been. Bob Grumman: > If you had even looked at my taxonomy, you would know that it's what just > about anyone would call a taxonomy--though it does not (for the most part) > allow predictions to be made in any common understanding of the term, > "predictions."<< I have looked at your categories, and I've talked to you about them extensive - - and since it cannot be used to make predictions, and you don't even claim that it CAN make predictions, it is simply not scientific -- it's either pseudo-science if you want to insist it's "objective" when it's perfectly clear that it's no such thing, or you are using a scientific term metaphorically, and you have a duty to be up front about the metaphorical nature of your use of the term. > > Bob Grumman: > > > If a taxonomy requires that, fine, then perhaps I'll have to > > > name my system a poetry-distinguishing naming and inter-relating > system.<< > > > > Yep, that's what it requires, and that's what you're going to have to > > do -- but why not just do what everyone else does and call it "an > > anthology"? Bob Grumman: > Perhaps because it isn't? At this time, it has no poems in it. You're merely making categories for an anthology -- whether you have poems in it or not, what you are offering is a framework you like within which to put poems. And if you don't want to put any poems in any categories, what in god's name are you creating categories of poems for? The difference between a taxonomy as a work of scientific rigor and a collection of categories is whether the user can predict from some evidence about an individual thing or organism what category it must belong in -- as a nipple predicts a mammal. You must, if you want to achieve scientific rigor for your categories, be willing and able to say that whenever a reader comes across a certain sort of thing in a poem that the reader must be able to predict what category that poem will fit in -- and not just THAT reader, but close to 100% of ALL readers who read the poem must also come to the same finding. Marcus Bales: > Well, Bob, define "objectivity". It seems to me that you'd have to > be able to get nearly 100% of readers to agree on the categories, and > you'd have to have predictive power in your categories, before you > could claim any kind of objectivity -- but you explicitly deny that > there is any predictive power in your categories, so you've > contradicted yourself again if you are claiming that your categories > are "objective". They are nothing of the kind. Bob Grumman: > You're playing trivial word games.< No, Bob, it is you who, by using the word "taxonomy" instead of "table of contents" or "Grumman School of Poetry Categorization", or the like, who are playing word games -- but not a trivial one. To the extent that you want, as you seem to say, to achieve "objectivity" in your system of categorization, you fail prima facie because you also say you do not expect and do not claim to have a system that offers readers any predictive power about the category the poem they're reading belongs in. You yourself eviscerate your own claims for objectivity by denying you are seeking predictive power. In other words, to the extent that you're using "taxonomy" without being up front about using it as a metaphor and not as a claim to scientific rigor, your claim to achieving a taxonomy is at best disingenuous, and certainly pseudo-scientific in that context. Your best hope is to claim that you use the word "taxonomy" metaphorically, not scientifically, and that what you're really trying to do is create something that would be better termed "The Bob Grumman School Of Poetry Categorization", because your categorization is not universal, not predictive, and not scientific. This is no trivial criticism of your claim. It takes your claim to scientific rigor, or to objectivity, seriously, and points out where your claims fail -- and even points out an alternative claim that would get you out of these difficulties. From elemenope at icubed.com Fri Apr 18 09:29:18 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:29:18 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of Unknowing (JforJame... (JforJames@aol.com) In-Reply-To: <200304181355.h3IDtCST009578@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304181355.h3IDtCST009578@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: I can't explain why Mr. Finnegan cannot or will not face the variety of problems, technical and moral, that W.S. Merwin's poem unconsciously creates for itself. I've explained with a sequence of deft shorthands the basic etiology of Merwin's self deception in his misrepresentation of the war, the American soldiers, the Administration, his moral certitude, etc ., by means of a cliches both technical, historiological, and dramatic. Until Mr. Finnegan decides to really deal with these confusions, I'll just have to retract my cape and walk away. I might remind Mr. Finnegan that spamming of newpaper reports regarding issues outside the immediate purview of poetry are, well, spams. Whenever I have posted reports and articles they have been in response to such spams. Lastly, true North from America is not straight "Up," it veers right. 75% of the American public agree with this view, in particular, regarding the Iraq Liberation. >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >From: JforJames at aol.com >Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:27:10 EDT >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of >Unknowing (JforJame... >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >In a message dated 4/17/03 4:07:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >elemenope at icubed.com writes: > >> But my credentials aren't the issue here. Merwin's hypocrisy and >> resultant inauthentic poetry is the problem. (I lump Merwin, >> Robbins, Gerafalo, GG into the same dissident group, just for the >> record.) >> >> Get back on topic, Mr. Finnegan. >Anonymous poster who addresses me formally, you're correct. >My last post was too personal...and thus unfair. I've been irked >by your posts to the list...but that's a poor excuse for questioning >your mental compass (which, as all can tell, finds true north >always well to the right of center). >The only credentials I'm interested in are those evidenced by >pertinent posts to this list. You've said nothing related directly >to poetry/poetics (our topic) that I can recall. The occasional >outlandish outburst attacking this or that poet, based solely on >political bent, certainly doesn't count. >Finnegan -- From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 18 22:07:13 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:07:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <25.37969645.2bd20951@cs.com> In a message dated 4/18/2003 8:33:48 PM Central Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > > > Marcus Bales: > >You are contradicting yourself: if you expect people to distinguish > >one poem from another, or kinds of poems from other kinds, they MUST > >be able to "predict" what kind of poem they're reading. They have to > >be able to look at the characteristics of the poem and see from those > >where it fits among your categories; > > Bob Grumman: > >Right--SEE where it fits. Not PREDICT as I've ever used it.< > > This is a trivial word game if ever there was one. The reader has to be > able > to see a bit of it and predict where it will fit, just as an observer can > see > a nipple and say "Aha! This is going to turn out to be a mammal!" That's > what > taxonomies are FOR, that's what they DO -- and since you yourself claim > that > yours cannot and ought not do that, you cannot reasonably call it a > taxonomy -- > you have nothing more than a collection of categories that you're > metaphorically calling a taxonomy, or you have a pseudo-scientific batch of > > nonsense on the order of astrology and phrenology if you insist that you > are > trying to make an objective, scientific taxonomy. > > Marcus Bales: > >more, they have to be RIGHT when > >they make those inferences, and more yet nearly 100% of all readers > >who read the poem have to AGREE with the categorization -- IF you > >want to think of your categories as "a scientific taxonomy".<0 > > Bob Grumman: > >It's a taxonomy that allows poems to be fit into it as readily as any > >taxonomy will--which is not 100% of the time but reasonably close to it. > I > >suggest we drop the term "scientific" as a trivial side issue.< > > It's neither trivial nor a side issue: you CALL it "a taxonomy", which is a > > scientific term. You're either trying to use the heft of a scientific term > to > lend weight to your pseudo-scientific nonsense or you're using the > scientific > term in a metaphorical way that you have to be up front about in a way you > haven't yet been. > > Bob Grumman: > >If you had even looked at my taxonomy, you would know that it's what just > >about anyone would call a taxonomy--though it does not (for the most part) > >allow predictions to be made in any common understanding of the term, > >"predictions."<< > > I have looked at your categories, and I've talked to you about them > extensive - > - and since it cannot be used to make predictions, and you don't even claim > > that it CAN make predictions, it is simply not scientific -- it's either > pseudo-science if you want to insist it's "objective" when it's perfectly > clear that it's no such thing, or you are using a scientific term > metaphorically, and you have a duty to be up front about the metaphorical > nature of your use of the term. > > >> Bob Grumman: > >> > If a taxonomy requires that, fine, then perhaps I'll have to > >> > name my system a poetry-distinguishing naming and inter-relating > >system.<< > >> > >> Yep, that's what it requires, and that's what you're going to have to > >> do -- but why not just do what everyone else does and call it "an > >> anthology"? > > Bob Grumman: > >Perhaps because it isn't? At this time, it has no poems in it. > > You're merely making categories for an anthology -- whether you have poems > in > it or not, what you are offering is a framework you like within which to > put > poems. And if you don't want to put any poems in any categories, what in > god's name are you creating categories of poems for? > > The difference between a taxonomy as a work of scientific rigor and a > collection of categories is whether the user can predict from some evidence > > about an individual thing or organism what category it must belong in -- as > a > nipple predicts a mammal. You must, if you want to achieve scientific rigor > > for your categories, be willing and able to say that whenever a reader > comes > across a certain sort of thing in a poem that the reader must be able to > predict what category that poem will fit in -- and not just THAT reader, > but > close to 100% of ALL readers who read the poem must also come to the same > finding. > > Marcus Bales: > >Well, Bob, define "objectivity". It seems to me that you'd have to > >be able to get nearly 100% of readers to agree on the categories, and > >you'd have to have predictive power in your categories, before you > >could claim any kind of objectivity -- but you explicitly deny that > >there is any predictive power in your categories, so you've > >contradicted yourself again if you are claiming that your categories > >are "objective". They are nothing of the kind. > > Bob Grumman: > >You're playing trivial word games.< > > No, Bob, it is you who, by using the word "taxonomy" instead of "table of > contents" or "Grumman School of Poetry Categorization", or the like, who > are > playing word games -- but not a trivial one. To the extent that you want, > as > you seem to say, to achieve "objectivity" in your system of categorization, > > you fail prima facie because you also say you do not expect and do not > claim > to have a system that offers readers any predictive power about the > category > the poem they're reading belongs in. You yourself eviscerate your own > claims > for objectivity by denying you are seeking predictive power. In other > words, > to the extent that you're using "taxonomy" without being up front about > using > it as a metaphor and not as a claim to scientific rigor, your claim to > achieving a taxonomy is at best disingenuous, and certainly > pseudo-scientific > in that context. > > Your best hope is to claim that you use the word "taxonomy" metaphorically, > > not scientifically, and that what you're really trying to do is create > something that would be better termed "The Bob Grumman School Of Poetry > Categorization", because your categorization is not universal, not > predictive, > and not scientific. > > This is no trivial criticism of your claim. It takes your claim to > scientific > rigor, or to objectivity, seriously, and points out where your claims fail > -- > and even points out an alternative claim that would get you out of these > difficulties. > > I am contradicting myself? Do I? We do? Every part of you belongs as well to me or somebody, Or perhaps to the mullein and poke weed. You may be contradicting yourself or myself or the self of anyone who will loafe with me awhile on the uncut armpit hair of graves. Whatever goes to the tilth of me, or us, is whatever. My armpits are divine, aroma finer than Right Guard, And I believe in the OverSoul, as well. I believe in you, O my OverSoul, And also my firm masculine colter. You settled you head athwart my hips and whatever. Unlock the screws from the doorjambs, Uncap the jam if it is blackberry, currant, or concord, Or whatever. I are large, I constrain multitudes, I want toast. Would you please stop talking now, Please? Please. I stop somewhere waiting for you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Apr 18 22:14:34 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:14:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of Unknowing (JforJame... (JforJames@aol.com) References: <200304181355.h3IDtCST009578@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <001801c30619$6b778590$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Ah...love them sequences of deft shorthands. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" To: Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 9:29 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of Unknowing (JforJame... (JforJames at aol.com) > I can't explain why Mr. Finnegan cannot or will not face the variety > of problems, technical and moral, that W.S. Merwin's poem > unconsciously creates for itself. I've explained with a sequence of > deft shorthands the basic etiology of Merwin's self deception in his > misrepresentation of the war, the American soldiers, the > Administration, his moral certitude, etc ., by means of a cliches > both technical, historiological, and dramatic. Until Mr. Finnegan > decides to really deal with these confusions, I'll just have to > retract my cape and walk away. > > I might remind Mr. Finnegan that spamming of newpaper reports > regarding issues outside the immediate purview of poetry are, well, > spams. Whenever I have posted reports and articles they have been in > response to such spams. > > Lastly, true North from America is not straight "Up," it veers right. > 75% of the American public agree with this view, in particular, > regarding the Iraq Liberation. > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 2 > >From: JforJames at aol.com > >Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 21:27:10 EDT > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of > >Unknowing (JforJame... > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >In a message dated 4/17/03 4:07:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >elemenope at icubed.com writes: > > > >> But my credentials aren't the issue here. Merwin's hypocrisy and > >> resultant inauthentic poetry is the problem. (I lump Merwin, > >> Robbins, Gerafalo, GG into the same dissident group, just for the > >> record.) > >> > >> Get back on topic, Mr. Finnegan. > >Anonymous poster who addresses me formally, you're correct. > >My last post was too personal...and thus unfair. I've been irked > >by your posts to the list...but that's a poor excuse for questioning > >your mental compass (which, as all can tell, finds true north > >always well to the right of center). > >The only credentials I'm interested in are those evidenced by > >pertinent posts to this list. You've said nothing related directly > >to poetry/poetics (our topic) that I can recall. The occasional > >outlandish outburst attacking this or that poet, based solely on > >political bent, certainly doesn't count. > >Finnegan > > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Apr 18 21:49:59 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:49:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of Unknowing (JforJame... (JforJames@aol.com) In-Reply-To: <001801c30619$6b778590$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: { Ah...love them sequences of deft shorthands. { { Tad Bite they little heads off. Nibble on they tiny feet. Hal "metaphor--I use them. They keep me regular." --Paul Violi Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Apr 18 22:43:31 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:43:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <200304190129.h3J1TRST022433@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <003401c3061d$77a005a0$d44ffea9@j1c1k6> > Marcus Bales: > > You are contradicting yourself: if you expect people to distinguish > > one poem from another, or kinds of poems from other kinds, they MUST > > be able to "predict" what kind of poem they're reading. They have to > > be able to look at the characteristics of the poem and see from those > > where it fits among your categories; > > Bob Grumman: > > Right--SEE where it fits. Not PREDICT as I've ever used it.< > This is a trivial word game if ever there was one. I certainly never said it wasn't. >The reader has to be able > to see a bit of it and predict where it will fit, He has to fit it in based on its properties. This crap about how much he sees is irrelevant. He has to see enough. > just as an observer can see > a nipple and say "Aha! This is going to turn out to be a mammal!" Yeah, and can instantly place any bacterium he comes across. >That's what > taxonomies are FOR, that's what they DO -- and since you yourself claim that > yours cannot and ought not do that, I NEVER said that. I said it had no predictive value--using the dictionary definition of "predictive." (Note: I think of scientific theories as having to be predictive, but taxonomies as descriptive.) >you cannot reasonably call it a taxonomy -- > you have nothing more than a collection of categories that you're > metaphorically calling a taxonomy, or you have a pseudo-scientific batch of > nonsense on the order of astrology and phrenology if you insist that you are > trying to make an objective, scientific taxonomy. Have you even once looked at it to see what it is rather than what you think I say it is? > Marcus Bales: > > more, they have to be RIGHT when > > they make those inferences, and more yet nearly 100% of all readers > > who read the poem have to AGREE with the categorization -- IF you > > want to think of your categories as "a scientific taxonomy".<0 > > Bob Grumman: > > It's a taxonomy that allows poems to be fit into it as readily as any > > taxonomy will--which is not 100% of the time but reasonably close to it. I > > suggest we drop the term "scientific" as a trivial side issue.< > > It's neither trivial nor a side issue: you CALL it "a taxonomy", which is a > scientific term. You're either trying to use the heft of a scientific term to > lend weight to your pseudo-scientific nonsense or you're using the scientific > term in a metaphorical way that you have to be up front about in a way you > haven't yet been. Okay, call it scientific. > Bob Grumman: > > If you had even looked at my taxonomy, you would know that it's what just > > about anyone would call a taxonomy--though it does not (for the most part) > > allow predictions to be made in any common understanding of the term, > > "predictions."<< > > I have looked at your categories, and I've talked to you about them extensive - You have never said one word that indicated you have looked at them. To critique them, you have to mention one and say why it doesn't work. > - and since it cannot be used to make predictions, and you don't even claim > that it CAN make predictions, it is simply not scientific -- it's either > pseudo-science if you want to insist it's "objective" when it's perfectly > clear that it's no such thing, or you are using a scientific term > metaphorically, and you have a duty to be up front about the metaphorical > nature of your use of the term. > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > If a taxonomy requires that, fine, then perhaps I'll have to > > > > name my system a poetry-distinguishing naming and inter-relating > > system.<< > > > > > > Yep, that's what it requires, and that's what you're going to have to > > > do -- but why not just do what everyone else does and call it "an > > > anthology"? > > Bob Grumman: > > Perhaps because it isn't? At this time, it has no poems in it. > > You're merely making categories for an anthology -- whether you have poems in > it or not, what you are offering is a framework you like within which to put > poems. And if you don't want to put any poems in any categories, what in > god's name are you creating categories of poems for? > > The difference between a taxonomy as a work of scientific rigor and a > collection of categories is whether the user can predict from some evidence > about an individual thing or organism what category it must belong in -- as a > nipple predicts a mammal. What zoologist ever looked at an animal with a nipple and said he thought it predicted the animal was a mammal? I say any sane zoologist would look at such an animal and say that it probably fit into the mammal category (genus?). Similarly, a poetry reader knowledgeable about my taxonomy would look at a poem with unorthodox typography as say that it probably fit into my visual poetry category. >You must, if you want to achieve scientific rigor > for your categories, be willing and able to say that whenever a reader comes > across a certain sort of thing in a poem that the reader must be able to > predict what category that poem will fit in -- and not just THAT reader, but > close to 100% of ALL readers who read the poem must also come to the same > finding. Impossible. No taxonomy can be used that way. Read about some of the debates biologists are always having. But mine can be used that way as well as any taxonomy you consider valid can. > > Marcus Bales: > > Well, Bob, define "objectivity". It seems to me that you'd have to > > be able to get nearly 100% of readers to agree on the categories, and > > you'd have to have predictive power in your categories, before you > > could claim any kind of objectivity -- but you explicitly deny that > > there is any predictive power in your categories, so you've > > contradicted yourself again if you are claiming that your categories > > are "objective". They are nothing of the kind. > > Bob Grumman: > > You're playing trivial word games.< > > No, Bob, it is you who, by using the word "taxonomy" instead of "table of > contents" or "Grumman School of Poetry Categorization", I still don't think you've read my taxonomy. But I don't care if it's called a categorization. >or the like, who are > playing word games -- but not a trivial one. To the extent that you want, as > you seem to say, to achieve "objectivity" in your system of categorization, > you fail prima facie because you also say you do not expect and do not claim > to have a system that offers readers any predictive power about the category In your ridiculous sense of the term. > the poem they're reading belongs in. You yourself eviscerate your own claims > for objectivity by denying you are seeking predictive power. In other words, > to the extent that you're using "taxonomy" without being up front about using > it as a metaphor and not as a claim to scientific rigor, I AM claiming scientific rigor. But my claim is irrelevant. Properly to critique my system, let's call it, you have to look at it and predict from what you see of it whether your fingers will type that it is scientifically rigorous or not. If not, you need to say why. >your claim to > achieving a taxonomy is at best disingenuous, and certainly pseudo-scientific > in that context. > Your best hope is to claim that you use the word "taxonomy" metaphorically, > not scientifically, and that what you're really trying to do is create > something that would be better termed "The Bob Grumman School Of Poetry > Categorization", because your categorization is not universal, not predictive, > and not scientific. In what way is it not universal? In what way is it not predictive in the strange way I take you to be meaning that term? In what way is it not scientific? All you're doing is finding preposterous faults with my way of describing it. You are refusing to look at it--or, if you really have looked at it--dealing with it. > This is no trivial criticism of your claim. It takes your claim to scientific > rigor, or to objectivity, seriously, and points out where your claims fail -- How can it have done that when you have not given a single example of an ineffective category from it? > and even points out an alternative claim that would get you out of these > difficulties. I would not know how to call it metaphorical. Show me. I really wonder just what you think I'm doing. Or, I should say, why I've wasted some 30 years working on something as flawed as you seem to think my system is. --Bob G. From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Fri Apr 18 23:08:06 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:08:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of Unknowing (JforJame... Message-ID: <1ea.6f30bc4.2bd21796@aol.com> In a message dated 4/18/2003 10:35:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > { Ah...love them sequences of deft shorthands. > { > { Tad > > Bite they little heads off. > Nibble on they tiny feet. > all deaf, short hands on deck? all short hands be deaf? deaf to all short hands? give me shorthands or give me deaf? moma's little baby loves shorthands, shorthands? i like best the three blind ironies: technical, historiological, and dramatic they're, you know, when you say one thing, and then you say another levine, not THE levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Fri Apr 18 23:13:06 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 23:13:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poems by others Message-ID: <16.2f391e7f.2bd218c2@aol.com> Report from a Besieged City? ? ?? Zbigniew Herbert (translated by Czeslaw Milosz) Too old to carry arms and to fight like others--- they generously assigned to me the inferior role of a chronicler I record---not knowing for whom---the history of the siege I have to be precise but I don't know when the invasion began two hundred years ago in December in autumn perhaps yesterday at dawn here everybody is losing the sense of time we were left with the place an attachment to the place still we keep ruins of temples phantoms of gardens of houses if we were to lose the ruins we would be left with nothing I write as I can in the rhythm of unending weeks monday: storehouses are empty a rat is now a unit of currency tuesday: the mayor is killed by unknown assailants wednesday: talks of armistice the enemy interned our envoys we don't know where they are being kept i.e. tortured thursday: after a stormy meeting the majority voted down the motion of spice merchants on unconditional surrender friday: the onset of plague saturday: the suicide of N.N., the most steadfast defender sunday: no water we repulsed the attack at the eastern gate named the Gate of the Alliance I know all this is monotonous nobody would care I avoid comments keep emotions under control describe facts they say facts only are valued on foreign markets but with a certain pride I wish to convey to the world thanks to the war we raised a new species of children our children don't like fairy tales they play killing day and night they dream of soup bread bones exactly like dogs and cats in the evening I like to wander in the confines of the City along the frontiers of our uncertain freedom I look from above on the multitude of armies on their lights I listen to the din of drums to barbaric shrieks it's incredible that the City is still resisting the siege has been long the foes must replace each other they have nothing in common except a desire to destroy us the Goths the Tartars the Swedes the Emperor's troops regiments of ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Our Lord's Transfiguration who could count them colors of banners change as does the forest on the horizon from the bird's delicate yellow in the spring through the green the red ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? to the winter black and so in the evening freed from facts I am able to give thought to bygone far away matters for instance to our allies overseas I know they feel true compassion they send us flour sacks of comfort lard and good counsel without even realizing that we were betrayed by their fathers our former allies from the time of the second Apocalypse their sons are not guilty they deserve our gratitude so we are grateful they have never lived through the eternity of a siege those marked by misfortune are always alone Dalai Lama's defenders Kurds Afghan mountaineers now as I write these words proponents of compromise have won a slight advantage over the party of the dauntless usual shifts of mood our fate is still in the balance cemeteries grow larger the number of defenders shrinks but the defense continues and will last to the end and even if the City falls and one of us survives he will carry the City inside him on the roads of exile he will be the City we look at the face of hunger the face of fire the face of death and the worst of them all---the face of treason and only our dreams have not been humiliated -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Sat Apr 19 01:01:38 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 21:01:38 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin Loses Grip, Returns into Cloud of Unknowing (JforJame... References: <1ea.6f30bc4.2bd21796@aol.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c30630$c653e690$6401a8c0@TRS80> You all really should know better than to interrupt our deft instructor. Just because he can't hear us doesn't make it right. The deft are people too, you know. And that's not a cliches. c -- Chris Lott From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 19 06:24:49 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 06:24:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] OED Definition of "Taxonomy" References: <110.229938c5.2bd1d1bc@aol.com> Message-ID: <006c01c3065d$e9213a60$84a7fea9@j1c1k6> For the few who care, and to make it a matter of record, my copy of the Oxford English Dictionary says that a taxonomy is: "classification, esp. in relation to general laws or principles" This is its first definition. Its only other definition has to do with the study of classifications. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Apr 19 08:40:47 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 05:40:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle References: <20030418234837.457613A63@sitemail.everyone.net> <3EA093DE.12633731@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3EA143CE.C3E772C4@earthlink.net> I had my own recipe backwards at one point. It should have been: * In this form of the paradelle, the demanding though boring task of repeated words is abandoned in lieu of similar or anthithetical concepts, and the final precept is ignored as much as possible, allowing the exception of unavoidable conjunctions and prepositions; if you can avoid those, I doff my hat to you. There are, of course, other subtleties that observe or ignore Collins' definition: "one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century. It is a poem of four six-line stanzas in which the first and second lines, as well as the third and fourth lines of the first three stanzas, must be identical. The fifth and sixth lines, which traditionally resolve these stanzas, must use all the words from the preceding lines and only those words. Similarly, the final stanza must use every word from all the preceding stanzas and only those words." - Jim From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sat Apr 19 09:34:47 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 08:34:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Now at Conchology Blog Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030419083255.01e4aaa0@mail.ilstu.edu> Action Alert: A World Wide Simultaneous Poetry "Art Action" With Kazim Ali An Interview with Jim Behrle Someone Call an Ambulance: A Dramatic Interview with Gabriel Gudding [Silliman, Perloff, Davis, Gordon, Sullivan, Hess, Piombino, Killian Interview GG] Poems by Obenzinger, Sa?adi Youssef, Mairead Byrne, Mahmoud Darwish, Dunya Mikhail, Rub?n Dar?o The Sublimity of Kent Johnson's Reading at RISD and His Handling of the Ribbing by his Friends Forrest Gander and CD Wright Forthcoming reviews of Pierre Joris's POASIS: SELECTED POEMS, 1986-1999 (Wesleyan); Vernon Frazer's RELIC'S REUNIONS (BTU Books); Joyelle McSweeney's THE RED BIRD (Fence Books); Mairead Byrne's NELSON AND THE HURUBURU BIRD (Wild Honey Press); Rochelle Owens' NEW AND SELECTED POEMS, 1961-1996 (Junction Press); Armand Schwerner's SELECTED SHORTER POEMS (Junction Press); Maxine Chernoff's LEAP YEAR DAY: NEW AND SELECTED POEMS (Another Chicago Press) The Sublimity of Mairead Byrne's Introduction of Kent Johnson Archived: Julia Ward Howe: The Mohammed Atta of American Poetry? rhode island notebook, 2.26-3.203 Dung in An Age of Empire A History of Solipsism and Experience In Mainstream American Poetics Since the Rise of Creative Writing http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, the Motherfuckers call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 19 10:22:34 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:22:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Guillaume Apollinaire, "The Pretty Redhead" Message-ID: The Pretty Redhead I stand here in the sight of everyone a man full of sense Knowing life and knowing of death what a living man can know Having gone through the griefs and happinesses of love Having known sometimes how to impose his ideas Knowing several languages Having travelled more than a little Having seen war in the artillery and the infantry Wounded in the head trepanned under chloroform Having lost his best friends in the horror of battle I know as much as one man alone can know Of the ancient and the new And without troubling myself about this war today Between us and for us my friends I judge this long quarrel between tradition and imagination Between order and adventure You whose mouth is made in the image of God's mouth Mouth which is order itself Judge kindly when you compare us With those who were the very perfection of order We who are seeking everywhere for adventure We are not your enemies Who want to give ourselves vast strange domains Where mystery flowers into any hands that long for it Where there are new fires colors never seen A thousand fantasies difficult to make sense out of They must be made real All we want is to explore kindness the enormous country where everything is silent And there is time which somebody can banish or welcome home Pity for us who fight always on the frontiers Of the illimitable and the future Pity our mistakes pity our sins Here summer is coming the violent season And so my youth is as dead as spring Oh Sun it is the time of reason grown passionate And I am still waiting To follow the forms she takes noble and gentle So I may love her alone She comes and draws me as a magnet draws filaments of iron She has the lovely appearance Of an adorable redhead Her hair turns golden you would say A beautiful lightning flash that goes on and on Or the flames that spread out their feathers In wilting tea roses But laugh laugh at me Men everywhere especially people from here For there are so many things that I don't dare to tell you So many things that you would not let me say Have pity on me --Guillaume Apollinaire, tr. James Wright fr. *Calligrammes* (1925) in *The Random House Book of Twentieth-Century French Poetry* ed., Paul Auster [New York: Random House,1982] and in James Wright, *Collected Poems* [Wesleyan Univ. Press, 1971] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 19 11:23:21 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:23:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Message-ID: <6c.2caa4208.2bd2c3e9@aol.com> In a message dated 4/19/03 8:36:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > I had my own recipe backwards at one point. It should have been: > > * In this form of the paradelle, the demanding though boring task of > repeated words is abandoned in lieu of similar or anthithetical > concepts, and the final precept is ignored as much as possible, allowing > the exception of unavoidable conjunctions and prepositions; if you can > avoid those, I doff my hat to you. There are, of course, other > subtleties that observe or ignore Collins' definition: Jim, you're much too modest...take credit where credit is due, at having invented, albeit inadvertently, the "paralleladelle." Finnegan From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 19 11:39:37 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:39:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <003401c3061d$77a005a0$d44ffea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EA13579.21700.427654@localhost> > > Marcus Bales: > >The reader has to be able > > to see a bit of it and predict where it will fit, Bob Grumman: > He has to fit it in based on its properties. This crap about how much he > sees is irrelevant. He has to see enough.< The reader has to be able to predict from part of the poem what category the poem belongs in, just as a biologist can predict that an organism will turn out to be a mammal if he or she finds a nipple. Unless you're prepared to offer a set of categories and a set of definitions for the poems so that when one comes across the equivalent of a nipple one can say "Aha! this poem is a such-and-such poem!" and nearly 100% of readers agree, you don't have scientific rigor. And so long as you admit that you don't even WANT to predict what category the poem goes in, and that your system does NOT make that prediction or offer a guide to readers to draw successful inferences, your calling your system a "taxonomy" is pseudo-science, no different from astrology or phrenology. Bob Grumman: > Yeah, and can instantly place any bacterium he comes across.< It's not a matter of "instantly" -- you're adding a time-frame element that isn't necessary, though many experts in their fields are indeed very quick at those identifications. But the key is not "instantly" the key is "able to be right almost all the time" -- the key is the predictive value of the system. Without predictive value the system is simply not science -- it's pseudo-science to the extent that you pretend it's science when it's not. Marcus Bales: > >That's what > > taxonomies are FOR, that's what they DO -- and since you yourself claim that > > yours cannot and ought not do that, Bob Grumman: > I NEVER said that. I said it had no predictive value--using the dictionary > definition of "predictive." < That's simply a bald-faced lie, Bob -- of course you said that your taxonomy is not predictive -- that it has no predictive power. You've said it again and again. Bob Grumman: > (Note: I think of scientific theories as > having to be predictive, but taxonomies as descriptive.)< Taxonomies say things such as "Mammals got nipples" so that observers can say things such as "Hey, look! A nipple! This is a mammal!" even if it swims in the sea and looks like a fish. That's what scientific taxonomies are FOR -- to properly classify things, and to provide a classification system that allows for drawing inferences and making predictions. The best you can hope for in a "taxonomy of poetry" is to claim that you're using the term metaphorically, and be up front about your lack of scientific rigor. Because if you're not up front about your lack of scientific rigor then you're offering a pseudo-science on the order of astrology and phrenology. Furthermore, now that you know this problem with your "taxonomy" if you persist in pretending it's a scientific taxonomy you're perpetrating a fraud. Marcus Bales: > >you cannot reasonably call it a taxonomy -- > > you have nothing more than a collection of categories that you're > > metaphorically calling a taxonomy, or you have a pseudo-scientific batch of > > nonsense on the order of astrology and phrenology if you insist that you are > > trying to make an objective, scientific taxonomy. Bob Grumman: > Have you even once looked at it to see what it is rather than what you think > I say it is?< Bob, I've read it several times; I've looked at it extensively. You're claiming that you have a scientific taxonomy of poetry when you have no such thing. > > Marcus Bales: > > > more, they have to be RIGHT when > > > they make those inferences, and more yet nearly 100% of all readers > > > who read the poem have to AGREE with the categorization -- IF you > > > want to think of your categories as "a scientific taxonomy".<0 > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > It's a taxonomy that allows poems to be fit into it as readily as any > > > taxonomy will--which is not 100% of the time but reasonably close to it. > I > > > suggest we drop the term "scientific" as a trivial side issue.< > > > > It's neither trivial nor a side issue: you CALL it "a taxonomy", which is a > > scientific term. You're either trying to use the heft of a scientific term to > > lend weight to your pseudo-scientific nonsense or you're using the scientific > > term in a metaphorical way that you have to be up front about in a way you > > haven't yet been. Bob Grumman: > Okay, call it scientific. If you are going to insist on calling it "scientific" now that it's been explained to you that it's not, you're going to be perpetrating a fraud. Bob Grumman: > You have never said one word that indicated you have looked at them. To > critique them, you have to mention one and say why it doesn't work. No, Bob -- because I'm pointing out a fundamental flaw in your approach. I'm pointing out that you can't have a "taxonomy of poetry" because poetry is a man-made art, not a natural phenomenon. Poetry doesn't have the time-frame or the non-volitional characteristics of natural phenomena. In short, people can change what they call poetry faster than you can characterize what they call poetry, and they can do it without reference to previous poems or any unchanging laws. What a taxonomy does is categorize things according to an underlying scientific theory -- a set of laws such as "All mammals have nipples". You're not willing to say "All rhymed verse has regular rhythm" or "All unrhymed verse has irregular rhythm" or anything else of the kind. It's clear why you won't do that -- because it's just not the case. And it is *because* you can't make such hard-and-fast rules (or if you do poets won't follow them) that you cannot achieve any scientific rigor -- and why your calling your set of categories a "taxonomy" is so wrong, unless you're willing to say it's metaphorical and not scientific. Bob Grumman: > What zoologist ever looked at an animal with a nipple and said he thought it > predicted the animal was a mammal?<< Every single one of them, Bob, if you show them not much more than a nipple and say it came from an animal and ask what kind of animal it came from. They'd say "Well, it looks like the nipple of a fox, dog, or wolf -- some canine mammal." and if pressed might say "Well, some mammal, anyway." But the VALUE of a taxonomy is precisely that you can look at part and classify the whole. If you can't do that then you don't have a taxonomy. Bob Grumman: > Similarly, a poetry reader knowledgeable about my taxonomy would > look at a poem with unorthodox typography as say that it probably fit into > my visual poetry category.< But there's no need for the Bob Grumman School Of Poetry Categorization in that case, Bob -- you're offering the reader nothing of value by offering your system. Why should the reader care whether the poem was "visual poetry"? It offers the reader NOTHING -- particularly since another reader may well put it in the "plainsong" category and ignore the typography as irrelevant to the poem's categorization. > >You must, if you want to achieve scientific rigor > > for your categories, be willing and able to say that whenever a reader comes > > across a certain sort of thing in a poem that the reader must be able to > > predict what category that poem will fit in -- and not just THAT reader, but > > close to 100% of ALL readers who read the poem must also come to the same > > finding. Bob Grumman: > Impossible. No taxonomy can be used that way.<< That's the way that biologists agree that a porpoise or a whale is a mammal and not a fish, Bob. Bob Grumman: > I still don't think you've read my taxonomy. But I don't care if it's > called a categorization.< But it's important that you NOT call it a "taxonomy" because you are making no claims for scientific rigor while using scientific terms invites the potential user to imagine that you are making scientific claims. You're offering a sort of con job, Bob: you want to use scientific words, but you don't have a theory that's up to the job of being scientific. Marcus Bales: > > the poem they're reading belongs in. You yourself eviscerate your own claims > > for objectivity by denying you are seeking predictive power. In other words, > > to the extent that you're using "taxonomy" without being up front about using > > it as a metaphor and not as a claim to scientific rigor, Bob Grumman: > I AM claiming scientific rigor. But my claim is irrelevant.<< Imagine Einstein saying such a thing -- that he was claiming scientific rigor for the General Theory of Relativity but that his claim was irrelevant! Imagine Mendeleev claiming such a thing about the table of elements! Every time you say such ludicrous things, Bob, you absolutely destroy any possible credibility. Bob Grumman: > Properly to > critique my system, let's call it, you have to look at it and predict from > what you see of it whether your fingers will type that it is scientifically > rigorous or not. If not, you need to say why.<< I've said why over and over -- and YOU've said why over and over: it's because you claim no predictive value for your categories. You provide no definitions you're willing to stand by and say are always true. You're just not willing to say that you have a theory of poetry that posits that, for example, that whenever a reader sees this kind of thing or that kind of thing the reader must be looking at something from the xyz category. It's no surprise that you're unwilling to say that, of course -- because poets just use the tools they want to use to make the kind of thing they want to make because poetry is a VOLITIONAL ACTIVITY, Bob. It's not something that you can make the kind of hard-and-fast rules about like "Mammals got nipples". > >your claim to > > achieving a taxonomy is at best disingenuous, and certainly pseudo-scientific > > in that context. > > Your best hope is to claim that you use the word "taxonomy" metaphorically, > > not scientifically, and that what you're really trying to do is create > > something that would be better termed "The Bob Grumman School Of Poetry > > Categorization", because your categorization is not universal, not predictive, > > and not scientific. Bob Grumman: > In what way is it not universal?<< It's not universal because you have no underlying theory of poetry- making that poets MUST CONFORM TO or they are not poets and what they do is not poetry. You have no rules such as "Mammals got nipples" that you're willing to promulgate and insist are true all the time everywhere for all poets and all poems. Bob Grumman: > In what way is it not predictive in the > strange way I take you to be meaning that term? In what way is it not > scientific? << I've explained this several times in past posts and in this one. Bob Grumman: > All you're doing is finding preposterous faults with my way of > describing it. You are refusing to look at it--or, if you really have > looked at it--dealing with it.< Bob, there's no there there in your "taxonomy". There is no necessity behind it except perhaps your own persistence. I will agree that the fault in your system is preposterous: it's preposterous that anyone who knew anything about science would claim that a system of categorization of poetry had scientific rigor or predictive value! Marcus Bales: > > This is no trivial criticism of your claim. It takes your claim to scientific > > rigor, or to objectivity, seriously, and points out where your claims fail -- Bob Grumman: > How can it have done that when you have not given a single example of an > ineffective category from it?<< For the same reason I don't have to know all about transepts and zodiacal signs to say that astrology is bunk. Your taxonomy is bunk for the same reason astrology is bunk: you're trying to cover up a lack of scientific rigor by using scientific-sounding words. Marcus Bales: > > and even points out an alternative claim that would get you out of these > > difficulties. Bob Grumman: > I would not know how to call it metaphorical. Show me. I really wonder > just what you think I'm doing. Or, I should say, why I've wasted some 30 > years working on something as flawed as you seem to think my system is.<< Well, there's a famous story about Frege and Russell, Bob. Russell pointed out just before Frege's book was going to press that Frege's fifth theorem was not sound. But scientists don't make claims such as that "But I put 30 years into that!" as an attempt to try to get their theories accepted. If experiment shows they're wrong, then they're wrong. The amount of work you put into thinking about your system has no relevance to whether it's worthwhile or useful or even interesting. It's got to BE worthwhile, or useful, or interesting -- or it's not. To say your system is a metaphorical taxonomy would be straightforward enough. You start by saying that you're going to take the FORM of a scientific taxonomy, and you're going to make up neologisms of like kinds in order to create a sense of kinship among categories, as scientific taxonomies do, but that you make no claim that your system will be useful to the reader of poems in identifying the kind of poem the reader is looking at. There will be no predictive value to the reader because there is no underlying rule that poets must adhere to in order to be able to call a piece of work "a poem". Further, there is going to be no little disagreement among users of the system about whether a particular poem is properly categorized as this or that kind of poem. And finally, that while the metaphorical taxonomy is not useful, it is a lot of work to learn the terms and argue about their proper application, and isn't that what we're all in this for, anyway? Tenor! Vehicle! Whee! Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 19 11:42:50 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:42:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] OED Definition of "Taxonomy" In-Reply-To: <006c01c3065d$e9213a60$84a7fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EA1363A.24190.4565F5@localhost> On 19 Apr 2003 at 6:24, Bob Grumman wrote: > For the few who care, and to make it a matter of record, my copy of the > Oxford English Dictionary says that a taxonomy is: > "classification, esp. in relation to general laws or principles"<< And, of course, that's precisely why your system of classification of poetry is not a taxonomy: you have no underlying general laws or principles for what a poem is or is not. You have offered no way for your users to be able to say, on seeing three unrhymed lines of text with a ragged right margin, whether it is poetry or not. You have offered no way for them to, metaphorically, see a nipple and call the animal it's on a mammal. QED Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sat Apr 19 11:45:17 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 08:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Message-ID: <20030419154518.2368C3D9C@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 19 11:43:13 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:43:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] OED Definition of "Taxonomy" In-Reply-To: <3EA1363A.24190.4565F5@localhost> Message-ID: { You have { offered no way for them to, metaphorically, see a nipple and call the { animal it's on a mammal. Or even a baby bottle. Hal "I hate flowers. I only paint them because they're cheaper than models and they don't move." --Georgia O'Keefe Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Apr 19 11:58:12 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:58:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] OED Definition of "Taxonomy" In-Reply-To: References: <3EA1363A.24190.4565F5@localhost> Message-ID: <3EA139D4.13761.537B0F@localhost> Marcus Bales: > { You have > { offered no way for them to, metaphorically, see a nipple and call the > { animal it's on a mammal. Hal Johnson: > Or even a baby bottle. Just so. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Apr 19 12:04:16 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 09:04:16 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle References: <6c.2caa4208.2bd2c3e9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EA17380.9DFA6FC8@earthlink.net> JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/19/03 8:36:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > > I had my own recipe backwards at one point. It should have been: > > > > * In this form of the paradelle, the demanding though boring task of > > repeated words is abandoned in lieu of similar or anthithetical > > concepts, and the final precept is ignored as much as possible, allowing > > the exception of unavoidable conjunctions and prepositions; if you can > > avoid those, I doff my hat to you. There are, of course, other > > subtleties that observe or ignore Collins' definition: > Jim, you're much too modest...take credit where credit is due, > at having invented, albeit inadvertently, the "paralleladelle." Try saying that 5 times real fast. But, it's close to a title I had but can't remember now! Oh yeah: "Paradelle Universe." - Jim From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Apr 19 12:06:03 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 09:06:03 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle References: <20030419154518.2368C3D9C@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <3EA173EB.FF6AAF8A@earthlink.net> What love poems? I posted the only extant example of a "paralleladelle." - Jim CobbCoStudioArts wrote: > > Jim, > > Got any examples of such love poems? > > Bob > > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > --- James Cervantes wrote: > >I had my own recipe backwards at one point. It should have been: > > > >* In this form of the paradelle, the demanding though boring task of > >repeated words is abandoned in lieu of similar or anthithetical > >concepts, and the final precept is ignored as much as possible, allowing > >the exception of unavoidable conjunctions and prepositions; if you can > >avoid those, I doff my hat to you. There are, of course, other > >subtleties that observe or ignore Collins' definition: > > > >"one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > >d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century. It is a poem of four six-line > >stanzas in which the first and second lines, as well as the third and fourth > >lines of the first three stanzas, must be identical. The fifth and sixth > >lines, which traditionally resolve these stanzas, must use all the words > >from the preceding lines and only those words. Similarly, the final stanza > >must use every word from all the preceding stanzas and only those words." > > > >- Jim > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chris at chrislott.org Sat Apr 19 12:03:01 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 08:03:01 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] OED Definition of "Taxonomy" References: <3EA1363A.24190.4565F5@localhost> <3EA139D4.13761.537B0F@localhost> Message-ID: <01d501c3068d$2b7a8130$6401a8c0@TRS80> I think I'm going to go back to bed, where nipples are never a part of taxonomy. c -- Chris Lott From chris at chrislott.org Sat Apr 19 12:06:14 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 08:06:14 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle References: <20030419154518.2368C3D9C@sitemail.everyone.net> <3EA173EB.FF6AAF8A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <01e101c3068d$9e2e0f80$6401a8c0@TRS80> When I first read the real definition I thought it meant that the first four lines of every stanza had to be identical. Which is only slightly more wearying than the real thing. I've actually come to appreciate Collins' poetry more in the last few years than I used to, but here in podunk Alaska we are far removed from Laureateships, po-biz, and all the other successes that make one resented and the subject of mockery (remember when poets used to aspire to being recognized in this way the same way kids used to dream of becoming president... for good reasons?). But the paradelle is not a particularly inspiring invention. We don't need new forms, we need more people who can do the "old" ones right. c -- Chris Lott From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Apr 19 13:06:50 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:06:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle In-Reply-To: <01e101c3068d$9e2e0f80$6401a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: { We don't need new forms, we need more people who can do the "old" ones { right. { { c Or even left, eh? Reminds me that those old Elizabethan guys could hardly ever get Italian sonnets right. Hal "I would like the world to know that I am a poet first and a would-be assassin last." --John W. Hinckley, Jr. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 19 13:21:03 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 12:21:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Green Thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Speaking of tradition and its malcontents and proponents, I wonder if anyone has read the recent essay collection *Green Thoughts, Green Shades* (U California), in which a gaggle of contemporary poets write appreciations of 16th & 17th century poets. Heather McHugh, Robert Hass, Alice Fulton, Thom Gunn, Anthony Hecht, Eavan Boland are some of the contributors. I'm dying to get a look at this book--read McHugh's essay somewhere ("Naked Numbers: A Curve from Wyatt to Rochester"), and loved it. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > > { We don't need new forms, we need more people who can do the "old" ones > { right. > { > { c > > Or even left, eh? > > Reminds me that those old Elizabethan guys could > hardly ever get Italian sonnets right. > > Hal From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sat Apr 19 13:47:11 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 10:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Message-ID: <20030419174711.42CF6E4BB@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Apr 19 14:05:19 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:05:19 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle References: Message-ID: <3EA18FDF.32DE3BB3@earthlink.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > > { We don't need new forms, we need more people who can do the "old" ones > { right. > { > { c > > Or even left, eh? > > Reminds me that those old Elizabethan guys could > hardly ever get Italian sonnets right. What's left when they can't get that right? Might as well hail a taxinomy and go home. - Jim From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Apr 19 14:09:27 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 11:09:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle References: <20030419174711.42CF6E4BB@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <3EA190D7.48C5238B@earthlink.net> No, I didn't write. That was Collins' definition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Truly. - Jim CobbCoStudioArts wrote: > > Jim, > > You wrote: > > >> >"one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > >> >d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century. It is a poem of four six-line > >> >stanzas in which the first and second lines, as well as the third and fourth > >> >lines of the first three stanzas, must be identical. The fifth and sixth > >> >lines, which traditionally resolve these stanzas, must use all the words > >> >from the preceding lines and only those words. Similarly, the final stanza > >> >must use every word from all the preceding stanzas and only those words." > >> > > >> >- Jim > > Bob replied: > > Got any examples of such love poems? > >> > >> Bob > > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > --- James Cervantes wrote: > >What love poems? I posted the only extant example of a "paralleladelle." > > > >- Jim > > > >CobbCoStudioArts wrote: > >> > >> Jim, > >> > >> Got any examples of such love poems? > >> > >> Bob > >> > >> Poetry Catamaran > >> > >> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > >> > >> Robert R. Cobb > >> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > >> http://rrcobb.tripod.com > >> > >> --- James Cervantes wrote: > >> >I had my own recipe backwards at one point. It should have been: > >> > > >> >* In this form of the paradelle, the demanding though boring task of > >> >repeated words is abandoned in lieu of similar or anthithetical > >> >concepts, and the final precept is ignored as much as possible, allowing > >> >the exception of unavoidable conjunctions and prepositions; if you can > >> >avoid those, I doff my hat to you. There are, of course, other > >> >subtleties that observe or ignore Collins' definition: > >> > > >> >"one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > >> >d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century. It is a poem of four six-line > >> >stanzas in which the first and second lines, as well as the third and fourth > >> >lines of the first three stanzas, must be identical. The fifth and sixth > >> >lines, which traditionally resolve these stanzas, must use all the words > >> >from the preceding lines and only those words. Similarly, the final stanza > >> >must use every word from all the preceding stanzas and only those words." > >> > > >> >- Jim > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >New-Poetry mailing list > >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From sellwein at hotmail.com Sat Apr 19 14:21:39 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:21:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Small Note... Book of Dreams Message-ID: One of my poems in English and Afrikaans is included in " Dreams - Book Of Dreams", an international anthology. KREATIV 2003 P/O Box 4404 GEORGE EAST 6539 SOUTH AFRICA Cost of Book: R140.00 (South Africa) or the equivalent in dollars (USA); pound (England) or Euro (Europe). (Exchange rate 4/03, US = 18.35) Name of Account: KREATIV Account number: 9104519982 Name of Bank: ABSA BANK, 106 York Street, George, South Africa ABA/SORT CODE: 632005 Swift address: ABSAZAJJCPE YOUR IDENTIFYING REFERENCE: Your full name Inquiries : myrataal at mweb.co.za Mobile: +27 82 378 5262 _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 19 14:27:05 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:27:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3EA13579.21700.427654@localhost> Message-ID: <010b01c306a1$4866bde0$84a7fea9@j1c1k6> many snips in what follows > Unless you're prepared to offer a set of categories and a set of > definitions for the poems so that when one comes across the > equivalent of a nipple one can say "Aha! this poem is a such-and-such > poem!" and nearly 100% of readers agree, you don't have scientific > rigor. I still can't believe you have looked at my taxonomy. It's at http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/lit-tax.html What in the world do you think I'm doing there if not defining terms? >And so long as you admit that you don't even WANT to predict > what category the poem goes in, and that your system does NOT make > that prediction or offer a guide to readers to draw successful > inferences, your calling your system a "taxonomy" is pseudo-science, > no different from astrology or phrenology. Why this need of yours to use the word "predict?" Can't you accept that you and I use it differently? Where does the OED definition of taxonomy say anything about predicting? Where does ANY definition of taxonomy say anything about it? > Bob Grumman: > > Yeah, and can instantly place any bacterium he comes across.< > > It's not a matter of "instantly" -- you're adding a time-frame > element that isn't necessary, I didn't add it--you did when you suggested a biologist could place a specimen once he saw a nipple--in other words, instantly >though many experts in their fields are > indeed very quick at those identifications. and misidentifications > Bob Grumman: > > I NEVER said that. I said it had no predictive value--using the dictionary > > definition of "predictive." < > > That's simply a bald-faced lie, Bob -- of course you said that your > taxonomy is not predictive -- that it has no predictive power. You've > said it again and again. Yes, I did! But I was using "predict" as primarily to foretell the future, not as find a place in a system for > Bob Grumman: > > (Note: I think of scientific theories as > > having to be predictive, but taxonomies as descriptive.)< > Taxonomies say things such as "Mammals got nipples" so that observers > can say things such as "Hey, look! A nipple! This is a mammal!" even > if it swims in the sea and looks like a fish. That's what scientific > taxonomies are FOR -- to properly classify things, and to provide a > classification system that allows for drawing inferences and making > predictions. That ALLOWS for, not that MAKES predictions > Bob Grumman: > > Have you even once looked at it to see what it is rather than what you think > > I say it is?< > > Bob, I've read it several times; I've looked at it extensively. > You're claiming that you have a scientific taxonomy of poetry when > you have no such thing. Ah. Thanks for an intelligent response at last. I can now respond. You, Marcus, are claiming that I do NOT have a scientific taxonomy of poetry when I do! Good to win an argument against you. > Bob Grumman: > > Okay, call it scientific. > > If you are going to insist on calling it "scientific" now that it's > been explained to you that it's not, you're going to be perpetrating > a fraud. You can say that if you want, just don't attack my moral character or indulge in some other ad hominem attack on me 'cause I'm very sensitive. Oh, and I WILL continue to call it scientific. >You're not willing to say "All rhymed verse has regular > rhythm" or "All unrhymed verse has irregular rhythm" or anything else > of the kind. Wrong. I say "all livenorm poetry adheres to a norm significantly more than it does not." Or I indicate that is the case. I don't know exactly what I said. Then I say, or my taxonomy says, there are two kinds of livenorm poetry: songmode and plaintext, and defines them. I plan to refine my definitions but they're not at all bad as they now are for anyone but someone like you. The simple definitions for them are "traditional formal verse" and "conventional free verse," both of which terms have been in use for over a century and are sufficient to let anyone of good will to place almost all conventional poems into the proper class. Songmode poetry is poetry that makes significant methodical or non-random use of one or more auditory devices such as rhyme, meter, and the like. Plaintext poetry is poetry that makes no significant such use of these things or of the devices burstnorm poetry, elsewhere defined, uses. Subjectivity does come into the question of "significant use" but it's obvious in almost all cases, and no taxonomy's categories are airtight. >It's clear why you won't do that -- It's not at all clear to me why you say I haven't. >because it's just > not the case. And it is *because* you can't make such hard-and-fast > rules (or if you do poets won't follow them) that you cannot achieve > any scientific rigor -- and why your calling your set of categories a > "taxonomy" is so wrong, unless you're willing to say it's > metaphorical and not scientific. Assuming I could call it metaphorical, what would it change? > Bob Grumman: > > What zoologist ever looked at an animal with a nipple and said he thought it > > predicted the animal was a mammal?<< > > Every single one of them, Bob, if you show them not much more than a > nipple and say it came from an animal and ask what kind of animal it > came from. They'd say "Well, it looks like the nipple of a fox, dog, > or wolf -- some canine mammal." and if pressed might say "Well, some > mammal, anyway." Which one said, "I think the nipple predicts this creature to be a mammal?" That is, which one uses the word, "predict," to describe what he thinks he's doing? What is this, some kind of test to see how long I'll reply to your complete idiocy? Can't you read? >But the VALUE of a taxonomy is precisely that you > can look at part and classify the whole. If you can't do that then > you don't have a taxonomy. That's good to know. > Bob Grumman: > > Similarly, a poetry reader knowledgeable about my taxonomy would > > look at a poem with unorthodox typography as say that it probably fit into > > my visual poetry category.< > > But there's no need for the Bob Grumman School Of Poetry > Categorization in that case, Bob -- you're offering the reader > nothing of value by offering your system. Why should the reader care > whether the poem was "visual poetry"? It offers the reader NOTHING -- > particularly since another reader may well put it in the "plainsong" You've really studied my taxonomy well. Actually, another reader might put the poem into the floating dwarf category. But if he goes by my definition for visual poetry, he will put it in the visual poetry category. > category and ignore the typography as irrelevant to the poem's > categorization. But the definition says it is not irrelevant. I claim that close to 100% of readers conversant with my taxonomy will be able to fit just about every piece of verbal expression they come across into one of the categories in my taxonomy. They will not likely think they are doing any kind of predicting, however. >You're offering a sort of con job, Bob: you want to use > scientific words, but you don't have a theory that's up to the job of > being scientific. The OED is on my side in this, Marcus. > Bob Grumman: > > I AM claiming scientific rigor. But my claim is irrelevant.<< > > Imagine Einstein saying such a thing -- that he was claiming > scientific rigor for the General Theory of Relativity but that his > claim was irrelevant! The theory of general relativity is not a taxonomy. >Imagine Mendeleev claiming such a thing about > the table of elements! Every time you say such ludicrous things, You snipped. I went on to explain why my claim was irrelevant. It's the claim that is irrelevant, not the scientific or intellectual rigor of the system. > Bob, you absolutely destroy any possible credibility. Thanks. That sounds like you thought I once had some. You are just arguing your use of "predictive" against mine so you can escape having to try to find something wrong with my taxonomy. Instead of saying it's no good because I say it is not predictive, why not look at it and judge it on what it is instead of what you think I mean to be saying about it because I use the term, "predictive" differently from you. > It's not universal because you have no underlying theory of poetry- > making that poets MUST CONFORM TO Here's a test. If you've actually looked at my taxonomy, you will be able to answer it. I say there is something that poetry has that distinguishes it from prose not because only poetry has it but because poetry has it much more than prose has it. What do I call it? To write a poem, one must, according to my definition, have it in what one writes. > Bob Grumman: > > How can it have failed when you have not given a single example of an > > ineffective category from it?<< > > For the same reason I don't have to know all about transepts and > zodiacal signs to say that astrology is bunk. You don't need to find even a single example of an error in astrology to find it bunk?! By the way, are you a Taurus? >Your taxonomy is bunk > for the same reason astrology is bunk: you're trying to cover up a > lack of scientific rigor by using scientific-sounding words. > Marcus Bales: > > > and even points out an alternative claim that would get you out of these > > > difficulties. > Bob Grumman: > > I would not know how to call it metaphorical. Show me. You haven't shown me yet. >I really wonder > > just what you think I'm doing.Or, I should say, why I've wasted some 30 > > years working on something as flawed as you seem to think my system is.<< > > Well, there's a famous story about Frege and Russell, Bob. Russell > pointed out just before Frege's book was going to press that Frege's > fifth theorem was not sound. But scientists don't make claims such > as that "But I put 30 years into that!" as an attempt to try to get > their theories accepted. The amount of time I put into it has nothing to do with its validity nor did I mention it as an attempt to get it accepted. You assumed that's why I mentioned it because that's the way you are. I made an aside having to doing with how you could think I'd put thirty years into something without knowing anything about what I was doing. In other words, I'm wondering just what makes you think I am beyond belief stupid. > To say your system is a metaphorical taxonomy would be > straightforward enough. You start by saying that you're going to > take the FORM of a scientific taxonomy, and you're going to make up > neologisms of like kinds in order to create a sense of kinship among > categories, as scientific taxonomies do, but that you make no claim > that your system will be useful to the reader of poems in identifying > the kind of poem the reader is looking at. Ah, so you think I should consider it a kind of art object. Great idea. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 19 14:54:22 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:54:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement Regarding my Tazonomy References: <143.f218199.2bd196b2@aol.com> Message-ID: <015e01c306a5$18fb51c0$84a7fea9@j1c1k6> For those of you eager to read more about my taxonomy, and see specimens, the upcoming issue of Modern Haiku will have 7 whole pages devoted to it, complete with a little taxonomy diagram (identified as such). I feel good about it. Right now I think it ranks with my mnmlst poetry essay, which I consider among my very best essays. I just hope the editors get the issue out before Marcus has them, and me, arrested for fraud. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sellwein at hotmail.com Sat Apr 19 14:57:08 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:57:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Guillaume Apollinaire, "The Pretty Redhead" Message-ID: Thanks for posting. - Deborah _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From sellwein at hotmail.com Sat Apr 19 15:05:42 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 15:05:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement Regarding my Tazonomy Message-ID: I will look for them. If you are arrested, you should forward your address. - Deborah For those of you eager to read more about my taxonomy, and see specimens, the upcoming issue of Modern Haiku will have 7 whole pages devoted to it, complete with a little taxonomy diagram (identified as such). I feel good about it. Right now I think it ranks with my mnmlst poetry essay, which I consider among my very best essays. I just hope the editors get the issue out before Marcus has them, and me, arrested for fraud. --Bob G. Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Sat Apr 19 15:22:41 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 15:22:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement Regarding my Tazonomy Message-ID: <125.20d4f2dd.2bd2fc01@aol.com> This day bearing the near sacred breath of the holiday tweener, all forms of ignominious artistic classification are, alas, legally protected by laws Deuteronomyc, wherein sayeth Moses: Nothing is certain save death and taxonomies. Speaking of which, check out Doonesbury. Jeffrey Levine (pfee, pfie, pfo, phylum . . . ) In a message dated 4/19/03 3:07:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sellwein at hotmail.com writes: > I will look for them. > If you are arrested, you should forward your address. - Deborah > > For those of you eager to read more about my taxonomy, and see specimens, > the upcoming issue of Modern Haiku will have 7 whole pages devoted to it, > complete with a little taxonomy diagram (identified as such). I feel good > about it. Right now I think it ranks with my mnmlst poetry essay, which I > consider among my very best essays. I just hope the editors get the issue > out before Marcus has them, and me, arrested for fraud. > > --Bob G. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 19 17:29:48 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 17:29:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement Regarding my Tazonomy References: Message-ID: <018f01c306ba$cef740a0$84a7fea9@j1c1k6> > I will look for them. > If you are arrested, you should forward your address. - Deborah My gosh--is it possible inmates of jails are denied e.mail!!???? I'd better withdraw my essay at once! --Bob G. > For those of you eager to read more about my taxonomy, and see specimens, > the upcoming issue of Modern Haiku will have 7 whole pages devoted to it, > complete with a little taxonomy diagram (identified as such). I feel good > about it. Right now I think it ranks with my mnmlst poetry essay, which I > consider among my very best essays. I just hope the editors get the issue > out before Marcus has them, and me, arrested for fraud. > > --Bob G. > > > > > > > Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet > > Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide > Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 19 17:32:18 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 17:32:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement Regarding my TaXonomy References: <125.20d4f2dd.2bd2fc01@aol.com> Message-ID: <019b01c306bb$28e5b6a0$84a7fea9@j1c1k6> This day bearing the near sacred breath of the holiday tweener, all forms of ignominious artistic classification are, alas, legally protected by laws Deuteronomyc, wherein sayeth Moses: Nothing is certain save death and taxonomies. Speaking of which, check out Doonesbury. Yeah, but the problem is that the nippleless thing I'm claiming is a taxonomy is NOT, and surely THAT can't be protected! --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Apr 20 10:01:23 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 10:01:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?Windows-1252?Q?Poems_by_others:_Jacques_Pr=E9vert_and_Georges_Perec?= Message-ID: Pater Noster Our Father who art in heaven Stay there And we'll stay here on earth Which is sometimes so pretty With its mysteries of New York And its mysteries of Paris At least as good as that of the Trinity With its little canal at Ourcq Its great wall of China Its river at Morlaix Its candy canes With its Pacific Ocean And its two basins in the Tuileries With its good children and bad people With all the wonders of the world Which are here Simply on the earth Offered to everyone Strewn about Wondering at the wonder of themselves And daring not avow it As a naked pretty girl dares not show herself With the world's outrageous misfortunes Which are legion With legionaries With torturers With the masters of this world The masters with their priests their traitors and their troops With the seasons With the years With the pretty girls and with the old bastards With the straw of misery rotting in the steel of cannons. --Jacques Pr?vert, tr. Lawrence Ferlinghetti fr. *Paroles* 1946 and City Lights Books, 1958 also in *The Random House Book of Twentieth-Century French Poetry* ed., Paul Auster [New York: Random House,1982] Lines read at Alix-Cl?o Blanchette's and Jacques Roubaud's Bridal Alix-Cl?o is joined to Jacques and Jacques is joined to Alix-Cl?o This is a delicious coincidence and so at this hour both are allied and united as are bird and branch Aucassin and Nicolette table and chair science and doubt desert and oasis *tilia* and *quercus* quill and tale sunrise and sunset absence and trace bee and linden It's a nice hour in June the sun shines on Ile de la Cit? on their transistor radios dealers in used literature listen to Alessandro Scarlatti's *Sonate a quattro* harassed tourists ascend the stairs to Sacr?-Coeur on Rue de la Huchette blue-jeaned Dutch lasses sound their banjos and binious The entire earth stretches out around us its unsounded oceans its lochs, its tablelands, its channels its hills and its tundras its sand dune, its hidden treasures, its islands, its roadsteads, its crude oil and its turbines its bauxites and rare soils its basilicas, its haunted castles, its ruined bastions its adult scouts in hot-red raincoats that chant carols at the hours close to the sacred birth its crescent-lensed notaries that read the late editions under old burners its retired colonels in council at the *tabac* on Rue Saint-Louis-en-l'Ile its carousers that exit antiquated discos and then scatter its slant-lidded Siberians that ride across the Tuba in birch canoes its beret-clad excursionists that assault the Ballon d'Alsace its austere Jansenists that recite Exodus and Isaiah its circus ballerinas balanced on their obedient steeds its D.Litt.'s that discuss Judeo-Christian structures in H?lderlin's discourse its obese Irish chars that collect salted dills and beer (in cans) in a Bronx delicatessen Here blue surrounds the sun, or soon shall Let's abandon the era's raucousness tornadoes and clouds Let's listen to the linnet's tune to the cat stretched out in the den next to Bescherelle's *Dictionnaire* quiet quotidian sounds the heart's beat These occasional lines that do not concern either carious teeth or roots that clutch or the author etherised on a table or the *Coccinella cardinalis* or the 1848 Constitution are here inscribed to usher in this betrothal Let decades rich in elation and delectation bless Alix-Cl?o and Jacques those here saluted and let there arise in the east a sable jet salute: childhood and in the south a turquoise blue salute: adulthood and next non-existence's ochre abalone salute that cannot be calculated or uttered and in the north an alabaster seashell salute: the Resurrection and let the Southern Cross salute Alix-Cl?o and Jacques and the star that heralds the sunset and all the constellations and all the nebulae and that as sunrise starts at the hour that bleaches the surround both stride quite around the earth's bounds and the stars. George Perec, tr. Harry Matthews fr. *?pithalames*, 1982 in *Oulipo Compendium*, eds. Harry Matthews and Alastair Brotchie [London: Atlas Press, 1998] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sun Apr 20 10:56:46 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 09:56:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] regarding post-traumatic stress disorder Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030420094822.012eeec8@mail.ilstu.edu> I recall the great Harry Truman remarked with fear the violence that soldiers returning from WW2 would bring into the hometowns and streets of America. Here a good article, chirren. Could I ask the right-wingers here to write some war ballads for us? I'd like to put them on my blog. "I didn't expect the whole civilian thing," said Lance Cpl. Jack Self, never taking his finger off the trigger of his grenade launcher. He watched a woman tugging two heavily laden donkeys away from a stone house that could provide cover to snipers. He had blasted other buildings like it and found bodies in the rubble. "Part of me wants to kill everything I see. You just can't trust anybody," he said. "I hope there's nobody in that building when I destroy it." http://www.sanmateocountytimes.com/Stories/0,1413,87%7E11268%7E1336907,00.html _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, the Motherfuckers call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From marcus at designerglass.com Sun Apr 20 11:29:35 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:29:35 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <200304201527.h3KFRmST020243@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Marcus Bales: > Unless you're prepared to offer a set of categories and a set of > definitions for the poems so that when one comes across the > equivalent of a nipple one can say "Aha! this poem is a such-and-such > poem!" and nearly 100% of readers agree, you don't have scientific > rigor. Bob Grumman: > I still can't believe you have looked at my taxonomy. It's at > http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/lit-tax.html > What in the world do you think I'm doing there if not defining terms?< You?re not defining your terms in any scientific sense: you're simply not showing how your terms and their definitions reflect or embody unvarying necessities that let users make inferences based on the scientific rigor of the relation between the terms and the underlying scientific theory. There IS NO underlying scientific theory. It is impossible to use your categories about poetry, or anyone else's, with any scientific rigor because POETRY IS A VOLITIONAL ACTIVITY. You might as well try to taxonomize prayer or astrology charts or desk sizes in executive offices or any other silly attempt to "taxonomize" what cannot be taxonomized. Your definitions, in short, are personal, not scientific. You don?t connect your definitions to a theory of poetry that has any scientific rigor. You don?t offer any experimental data, or even offer a proposed experiment that could test your hypotheses if only the right conditions occurred, as Einstein did with how starlight bent. Your hypothesis is simply not scientific. Instead you?re using scientific-sounding words to pretend to science. It?s scientism, it?s hokum, and if you persist in it after having this pointed out to you, it?s fraud. You've claimed that you are trying for scientific rigor and you've denied at the same time without apparently understanding what you're doing that there is any possibility of scientific rigor in your collection of categories. It is becoming clearer and clearer that your notion about how science works, what it is, and what it's for -- and what it's not for -- is no better than a child with his sand bucket at the beach who declares to his parents that he's going to dig to China. You're doing nothing more than any other poetry anthologist has ever done, which is try to persuade some small but hopefully significant portion of the people who talk about poetry to take up his or her terminology instead of earlier terminology. Isn't that enough for you? You're working in a long tradition of people who have tried to impose their views of what poetry is on the poetry-appreciating audience. You simply haven't got any scientific rigor in your taxonomy because you're unable (no one as far as I know is able, so this is not a dig at you personally, it is an attempt to state facts that have nothing to do with you personally) to so define your terms within the context of a theory of poetry so that when people come across something you've defined they can predict where they are within your taxonomy -- as a biologist does when, examining an animal and finding a nipple, can say "Aha! This is a mammal!". Nothing in your taxonomy shows that if we find three consecutive lines of rhymed tetrameter that we have a tetrameter poem, or a poem at all. It might be prose that accidentally rhymes for all your system helps. It's nonsense as science, Bob, however helpful you may think it would be to talk about poetry using your terms instead of IA Richards's or Matthew Arnold's or Charles Olson's. It is still the raw bare case that all you've got is another alternative collection of terms that have no more necessary connection to the reality of what poetry is than Aristotle had, or than I have. Poetry is a field where there is no objective truth, Bob -- there are only subjective opinions. You are trying to PRETEND that you have objective truth because you are using the form of a scientific taxonomy and have invented neologism to substitute for words others have used to describe much the same thing as you're trying to describe. Not only that but the very terms themselves, such as "burstnorm" are agenda- driven, and your tone and manner, together with your content, make clear that yours is just another attempt to substitute one set of terms for another on the basis of persistence without the faintest indication that there is any necessary reason to do so beyond your own personal desire to use your terms instead of someone else's. Marcus Bales: > And so long as you admit that you don't even WANT to predict > what category the poem goes in, and that your system does NOT make > that prediction or offer a guide to readers to draw successful > inferences, your calling your system a "taxonomy" is pseudo-science, > no different from astrology or phrenology. Bob Grumman: > Why this need of yours to use the word "predict?" Can't you accept that you > and I use it differently? > Where does the OED definition of taxonomy say anything about predicting? > Where does ANY definition of taxonomy say anything about it? What science does is two things: posits hypotheses about the world and tests those hypotheses against the world to see if they are reasonably accurate. You have made no hypothesis about how poetry works, what it is, or why it needs categorization by you or anyone else. Your categorization claims, and YOU claim, no predictive value for your system; there is nothing your system does for its users, or for readers of poetry, that IA Richards' or Aristotle's doesn't do. You have failed completely to show that your hypothesis is scientific, and you haven't even tried to test it in any scientific way. > Bob Grumman: > Yeah, and can instantly place any bacterium he comes across.<< Marcus Bales: > It's not a matter of "instantly" -- you're adding a time-frame > element that isn't necessary,<< Bob Grumman; > I didn't add it--you did when you suggested a biologist could place a > specimen once he saw a nipple--in other words, instantly When they saw the SARS virus they could say it was a Corona-virus, Bob -- they knew how to start testing for it and how to start figuring out how to fight against it. It's not a matter of "instantly" -- it's a matter of recognition, whether of the characteristics of a Corona-virus or of a mammal. The experts recognize things relatively quickly; the less expert less quickly, and non- experts perhaps not at all. Marcus Bales: > though many experts in their fields are > indeed very quick at those identifications. Bob Grumman: > and misidentifications What's next, Bob, an impassioned defense of Intelligent Design as a theory of how the world works as an equally valid explanation with evolution? Of course there are misidentifications -- but they are identified as misidentifications, and corrections are made. Science is self-correcting because as soon as some clown puts out a taxonomy of poetry and claims that it's scientifically rigorous then actual scientists start examining it, and looking for ways to test the hypothesis and to test whether the experimental methods of the original researcher are sound and the conclusions valid. What you've got here in your soi disant "taxonomy", Bob, is classic pseudo- science. Your "taxonomy" is like the bamboo headphones of the cargo cult people on some southern Pacific islands who also carve radio-like chunks of wood and light fires beside the runways they hack out of the jungle hoping that such ritualistic simulcra will make the cargo planes come back. You?re hoping that if you use scientific-sounding words you?re doing science ? but that?s as wrong as the notion that a bamboo antenna on a block of wood carved to look like a radio will pick up NPR. > Bob Grumman: > I NEVER said that. I said it had no predictive value--using the > dictionary definition of "predictive." < Marcus Bales: > ... of course you said that your > taxonomy is not predictive -- that it has no predictive power. You've > said it again and again. Bob Grumman: > Yes, I did! But I was using "predict" as primarily to foretell the future, > not as find a place in a system for.<< Well, Bob, welcome to the wonderful world of science, because that's the kind of prediction that scientists mean when they say that a system has to be predictive. It?s not enough to just use words that scientists have used, Bob ? you have to use them scientifically, you have to find out what they mean and use them right. Bob Grumman: > That ALLOWS for, not that MAKES predictions The predictions are inherent in the system, as the conclusion of a syllogism is inherent in the premises -- that's what gives such limited systems as syllogisms and taxonomies their great power, and their great limitations, as well. When a mammal is defined as an animal with nipples, and you find nipples, well guess what, Bob? You've got a mammal. Bob Grumman: > ? I say "all livenorm poetry adheres to a norm significantly more than > it does not."<< But Bob, that?s like saying ?all giraffes adhere to the giraffe-like more than they do not? ? it?s tautological because you don?t say what the norm IS. You haven?t got an underlying scientific theory. You haven?t even got an hypothesis. You?ve got nothing but the outward forms: you?re offering a cargo- cult version of a taxonomy, not a real one. And what does ?significantly more than? mean, anyway? Can you imagine a scientist saying that the way you identify mammals is that they adhere to mammalian characteristics ?significantly more than? fish do? No, Bob ? mammals adhere to mammalian characteristics ALL THE TIME because (guess what, Bob?) they are mammals! The very fact that you have to resort to such locutions as ?significantly more than? instead of saying ?all the time? demonstrates the unscientific character of your endeavor. You have no science here, Bob ? all you?ve got is opinion and an determination to try to substitute your set of non-scientific terms for an existing set of non-scientific terms. Bob Grumman: >? Subjectivity does come into the question of "significant use" but it's obvious in > almost all cases, and no taxonomy's categories are airtight.<< Damn right subjectivity comes into it there ? and comes into it with a vengeance. And you?re wrong about a taxonomy?s categories not being airtight, Bob ? they ARE airtight because scientific taxonomies are descriptions of non- volitional natural phenomena, non-volitional mutations aside. But in poetry, Bob, you may remember, we have human beings making it, not some natural phenomenon. A taxonomy in biology has an underlying theory about how natural phenomena work. Yours has no such theory. You have, apparently, no theory at all ? all you have is a determination to replace existing non-scientific terms with your own non-scientific neologisms ? as if there were any significance in replacing ?lyric? with ?songmode?! You are offering nothing but a metaphorical taxonomy ? it?s not scientific, and you yourself deny it?s scientific on the one hand while you claim it is scientific on the other. Your claims are confused. Bob Grumman: >Assuming I could call it metaphorical, what would it change?< You?d change your claim fundamentally: you?d no longer be claiming that the weight and power of scientific explanation was on your side so that you could claim to be right and those who disagree with you wrong. You?d no longer be able to claim that your system is objective. You?d have to make reasonable arguments in favor of adopting your new system of terms as making a degree of change to the existing kind of other systems of terms, instead of claiming that your new system of terms represented a different kind of system. What you clearly want is to claim that your system of naming is different in kind, not in degree. You want to claim that science is on your side, and that your so-called ?taxonomy? represents a sea-change in how people will think about poetry. But it?s nothing of the kind. It?s just more of the same subjective attempt to try to describe what poetry is, how it works, and why we think it?s important. But that you?ve discovered the scientific principles of poetry, and have developed a taxonomy for us to use based on those principles, is just not the case, Bob. You?ve just re-named a lot of existing subjective categories with your own subjective neologisms. Marcus Bales: > But the VALUE of a taxonomy is precisely that you > can look at part and classify the whole. If you can't do that then > you don't have a taxonomy. Bob Grumman: >That's good to know.< Unfortunately for your system, you clearly don?t know it ? or if you know it now, you didn?t know it when you made your claim that you?d developed a taxonomy of literature. Now that you know it, I hope you can see that your claim to have developed a taxonomy of literature is just so much manure. You?ve developed a system of categorization, to be sure, but it?s no more scientific than the system of classifying types of influences the stars have on human behavior, or the influences the bumps on your head have on your character. Marcus Bales: > category and ignore the typography as irrelevant to the poem's > categorization. Bob Grumman: >But the definition says it is not irrelevant.< And that?s what convicts your system of scientism, Bob ? that only the definition, and not the underlying theory, says it?s not irrelevant. You have a purely verbal construct in your system of classification. It has no explanatory force, it has no persuasive power. It is straightforwardly subjective ? there is no more necessity to agree with you about what terms to use about describing poetry than there is to agree with you about what terms to use to describe political acts. Bob Grumman: > You are just arguing your use of "predictive" against mine so you can escape > having to try to find something wrong with my taxonomy. Instead of saying > it's no good because I say it is not predictive, why not look at it and > judge it on what it is instead of what you think I mean to be saying about > it because I use the term, "predictive" differently from you.<< I?m saying your system of classification is NOT SCIENTIFIC. You have been basing your claim that your system has value on the claim that your system is ?objective? and ?scientific? when it is no more objective than your political opinions (whatever they are) and no more scientific than a cargo cult. If you want to try to offer non-scientific-claim reasons that you think that we should call ?lyric? ?songmode? go to it ? but to try to claim the reason to use the latter is that it?s more scientific is just plain bunk. Bob Grumman: > You don't need to find even a single example of > an error in astrology to find it bunk?! By the way, are you a Taurus? That?s right, I challenge the premises of astrology, not whether an astrologist can calculate a secant. And an error in the calculation of a secant doesn?t have any impact on a challenge to the premise of the system. That?s why, you see, Bob, one challenges the premises of the system rather than examines every detail. Bob Grumman: >I really wonder > just what you think I'm doing.Or, I should say, why I've wasted some 30 > years working on something as flawed as you seem to think my system is Marcus Bales: > Well, there's a famous story about Frege and Russell, Bob. Russell > pointed out just before Frege's book was going to press that Frege's > fifth theorem was not sound. But scientists don't make claims such > as that "But I put 30 years into that!" as an attempt to try to get > their theories accepted. Bob Grumman: > ? I made an aside having to doing with how you could think I'd put thirty > years into something without knowing anything about what I was doing. In > other words, I'm wondering just what makes you think I am beyond belief > stupid. I don?t say you?re stupid, Bob ? I say that your system of classification is not scientific, and that if you claim it is, you have misunderstood what makes something scientific.. Further, that you?ve put 30 years into trying to find the scientific principles underlying poetry doesn?t make you stupid, either ? but so far the results of your time and energy are not encouraging. That doesn?t mean it can?t be done ? only that you haven?t done it. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Apr 20 11:42:03 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:42:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] regarding post-traumatic stress disorder Message-ID: <17c.19c1ae2f.2bd419cb@cs.com> Thomas Hardy. 1840? 3. The Man He Killed (From "The Dynasts") "HAD he and I but met By some old ancient inn, We should have sat us down to wet Right many a nipperkin! "But ranged as infantry, And staring face to face, I shot at him as he at me, And killed him in his place. "I shot him dead because? Because he was my foe, Just so: my foe of course he was; That's clear enough; although "He thought he'd 'list, perhaps, Off-hand like?just as I? Was out of work?had sold his traps? No other reason why. "Yes; quaint and curious war is! You shoot a fellow down You'd treat, if met where any bar is, Or help to half-a-crown." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Apr 20 11:54:10 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 10:54:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] regarding post-traumatic stress disorder In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030420094822.012eeec8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: A Break from the Bush The South China Sea drives in another herd. The volleyball's a punching bag: Clem's already lost a tooth & Johnny's left eye is swollen shut. Frozen airlifted steaks burn on a wire grill, & miles away machine guns can be heard. Pretending we're somewhere else, we play harder. Lee Otis, the point man, high on Buddha grass, buries himself up to his neck in sand. "Can you see me now? In this spot they gonna build a Hilton. Invest in Paradise. Bang, bozos! You're dead." Frenchie's cassette player unravels Hendrix's "Purple Haze." Snake, 17, from Daytona, sits at the water's edge, the ash on his cigarette pointing to the ground like a crooked finger. CJ, who in three days will trip a fragmentation mine, runs after the ball into the whitecaps, laughing --Yusef Komunyakaa ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sun Apr 20 11:57:27 2003 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 08:57:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Condensed Version In-Reply-To: <200304201530.h3KFU2ST020275@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030420085428.00b6bcc8@incoming.verizon.net> BARRY'S EASTER SUNDAY POEM "Beauty is truth, Truth beauty..." "But Bob..." "But Marcus..." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Apr 20 12:14:26 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:14:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Easter Morning Message-ID: Do I post this poem every Easter morning? Very well then, I post this poem every Easter morning. I am old and forgetful, so sue me. . . . Easter Morning I have a life that did not become, that turned aside and stopped, astonished: I hold it in me like a pregnancy or as on my lap a child not to grow or grow old but dwell on it is to his grave I most frequently return and return to ask what is wrong, what was wrong, to see it all by the light of a different necessity but the grave will not heal and the child, stirring, must share my grave with me, an old man having gotten by on what was left when I go back to my home country in these fresh far-away days, it's convenient to visit everybody, aunts and uncles, those who used to say, look how he's shooting up, and the trinket aunts who always had a little something in their pocketbooks, cinnamon bark or a penny or nickel, and uncles who were the rumored fathers of cousins who whispered of them as of great, if troubled, presences, and school teachers, just about everybody older (and some younger) collected in one place waiting, particularly, but not for me, mother and father there, too, and others close, close as burrowing under skin, all in the graveyard assembled, done for, the world they used to wield, have trouble and joy in, gone the child in me that could not become was not ready for others to go, to go on into change, blessings and horrors, but stands there by the road where the mishap occurred, crying out for help, come and fix this or we can't get by, but the great ones who were to return, they could not or did not hear and went on in a flurry and now, I say in the graveyard, here lies the flurry, now it can't come back with help or helpful asides, now we all buy the bitter incompletions, pick up the knots of horror, silently raving, and go on crashing into empty ends not completions, not rondures the fullness has come into and spent itself from I stand on the stump of a child, whether myself or my little brother who died, and yell as far as I can, I cannot leave this place, for for me it is the dearest and the worst, it is life nearest to life which is life lost: it is my place where I must stand and fail, calling attention with tears to the branches not lofting boughs into space, to the barren air that holds the world that was my world though the incompletions (& completions) burn out standing in the flash high-burn momentary structure of ash, still it is a picture-book, letter-perfect Easter morning: I have been for a walk: the wind is tranquil: the brook works without flashing in an abundant tranquility: the birds are lively with voice: I saw something I had never seen before: two great birds, maybe eagles, blackwinged, whitenecked and -headed, came from the south oaring the great wings steadily; they went directly over me, high up, and kept on due north: but then one bird, the one behind, veered a little to the left and the other bird kept on seeming not to notice for a minute: the first began to circle as if looking for something, coasting, resting its wings on the down side of some of the circles: the other bird came back and they both circled, looking perhaps for a draft; they turned a few more times, possibly rising--at least, clearly resting? then flew on falling into distance till they broke across the local bush and trees: it was a sight of bountiful majesty and integrity: the having patterns and routes, breaking from them to explore other patterns or better ways to routes, and then the return: a dance sacred as the sap in the trees, permanent in its descriptions as the ripples round the brook's ripplestone: fresh as this particular flood of burn breaking across us now from the sun. --A. R. Ammons. *A Coast of Trees*, 1981. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sun Apr 20 12:38:50 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:38:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Poems=20by=20Others:=20Dorianne=A0Laux,=20"Cello"?= Message-ID: <20030420123850.005524@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Cello When a dead tree falls in a forest it often falls into the arms of a living tree. The dead, thus embraced, rasp in wind, slowly carving a niche in the living branch, sheering away the rough outer flesh, revealing the pinkish, yellowish, feverish inner bark. For years the dead tree rubs its fallen body against the living, building its dead music, making its raw mark, wearing the tough bough down, moaning in wind, the deep rosined bow sound of the living shouldering the dead. Dorianne?Laux from _Poets Against the War_, ed. Sam Hamill, Thunder's Mouth Press/Nation Books, 2003 ? ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu The wall between where we are? and the Self is called the mind. --S. J. Bharat From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 20 12:42:35 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:42:35 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Poems_by_Others:_Dorianne=A0Laux=2C?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_=22Cello=22?= References: <20030420123850.005524@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <001901c3075b$d8cdf320$f5737450@anny> A great choice of poem, thanks. From: "Wendy Battin" > Cello > > > When a dead tree falls in a forest > it often falls into the arms > of a living tree. The dead, > thus embraced, rasp in wind, > slowly carving a niche > in the living branch, sheering away > the rough outer flesh, revealing > the pinkish, yellowish, feverish > inner bark. For years > the dead tree rubs its fallen body > against the living, building > its dead music, making its raw mark, > wearing the tough bough down, > moaning in wind, the deep > rosined bow sound of the living > shouldering the dead. > > Dorianne Laux > > from _Poets Against the War_, ed. Sam Hamill, Thunder's Mouth > Press/Nation Books, 2003 > > ------------------------ > Wendy Battin > wjbat at conncoll.edu > > The wall between where we are > and the Self is called the mind. > > --S. J. Bharat > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Apr 20 12:48:59 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:48:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Condensed Version In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030420085428.00b6bcc8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: Butt, Barry, butt . . . Hal BARRY'S EASTER SUNDAY POEM "Beauty is truth, Truth beauty..." "But Bob..." "But Marcus..." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 20 12:59:55 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:59:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <200304201527.h3KFRmST020243@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <004201c3075e$4574ab20$d902fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > . I say "all livenorm poetry adheres to a norm significantly more than > > it does not."<< Can you imagine a > scientist saying that the way you identify mammals is that they adhere to > mammalian characteristics "significantly more than" fish do? No, Bob - mammals > adhere to mammalian characteristics ALL THE TIME because (guess what, Bob?) > they are mammals! Quote one biologist who thinks that all species are as easy to put into a genus as mammals, a pretty special case, are. > The very fact that you have to resort to such locutions as "significantly more > than" instead of saying "all the time" demonstrates the unscientific character > of your endeavor. No. It indicates that the object I am attempting to classify are more difficult to classify than living creatures are--though living creatures aren't that easy, there being some entities that biologists aren't even sure are organic or not. > Bob Grumman: > >. Subjectivity does come into the question of "significant use" but it's > obvious in > > almost all cases, and no taxonomy's categories are airtight.<< > > Damn right subjectivity comes into it there - and comes into it with a > vengeance. Not really. >And you're wrong about a taxonomy's categories not being airtight, > Bob - they ARE airtight because scientific taxonomies are descriptions of non- > volitional natural phenomena, non-volitional mutations aside. Find me a biologist who will agree with you that a taxonomy's categories are airtight. Even the classification of the colors of the spectrum are airtight only to the accuracy of our instruments. >But in poetry, > Bob, you may remember, we have human beings making it, not some natural > phenomenon. Which is completely irrelevant. > taxonomy in biology has an underlying theory about how natural > phenomena work. Yours has no such theory. You have, apparently, no theory at > all - all you have is a determination to replace existing non-scientific terms > with your own non-scientific neologisms - as if there were any significance in > replacing "lyric" with "songmode"! There probably wouldn't be, if anyone ever did that. > What you clearly want is to claim that your system of naming is different in > kind, not in degree. Wrong. You want to claim that science is on your side, and that > your so-called "taxonomy" represents a sea-change in how people will think > about poetry. Completely wrong. And I can almost prove you are wrong about me. My taxonomy is for me a very minor venture, an attempt to clarify things so as to permit better communication about poetry. The near-proof that this is so is that I am working on a theory of psychology that I DO think is a major breakthrough--though no sea-change nor different in kind from previous such theories. I consider my willingness to admit this a near-proof that I don't consider my taxonomy major because it shows that I'm capable of admitting to megalomania. That being the case, why would I not admit to it as the creator of this taxonomy that so threatens you if it were the case there, too? >But it's nothing of the kind. It's just more of the same > subjective attempt to try to describe what poetry is, how it works, and why we > think it's important. I consider it an objective attempt todescribe what poetry is. I describe how it works and why I consider it important elsewhere. >You've just re-named a lot of existing subjective categories with > your own subjective neologisms. Drop "subjective" and I would go along with that, for the most part. Some of the categories were unnamed before I tagged them. I feel I've arranged the categories systematically, as well. > Marcus Bales: > > category and ignore the typography as irrelevant to the poem's > > categorization. > > Bob Grumman: > >But the definition says it is not irrelevant.< > > And that's what convicts your system of scientism, Bob - that only the > definition, and not the underlying theory, says it's not irrelevant. You have a > purely verbal construct in your system of classification. It has no explanatory > force, it has no persuasive power. It's not supposed to have these things. It CLASSIFIES. > There is no more necessity to agree with you about what terms to use about describing > poetry than there is to agree with you about what terms to use to describe > political acts. I have a political taxonomy, too. > If you want to try to offer non-scientific-claim reasons that you think that we > should call "lyric" "songmode" go to it - but to try to claim the reason to use > the latter is that it's more scientific is just plain bunk. I don't call "lyric" "songmode." To think I do convicts you of knowing just about nothing about my taxonomy. As for whether my taxonomy is scientific or not is a subjective matter. It IS objective, though, because based on material aspects of verbal texts. > Bob Grumman: > > You don't need to find even a single example of > > an error in astrology to find it bunk?! By the way, are you a Taurus? > That's right, I challenge the premises of astrology, not whether an astrologist > can calculate a secant. And an error in the calculation of a secant doesn't > have any impact on a challenge to the premise of the system. And what is the premise of astrology? And why won't you admit you're a Taurus? >That's why, you > see, Bob, one challenges the premises of the system rather than examines every > detail. You still need to find an error in it, in this case in it premises. And you can't just state the premises and say they're wrong. I note that you snipped my challenge to you to tell me what my taxonomy says makes a text poetry instead of prose. Why? --Bob G. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 20 13:53:03 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 10:53:03 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Condensed Version References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030420085428.00b6bcc8@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <3EA2DE7F.15F71543@earthlink.net> Barry Spacks wrote: > > BARRY'S EASTER SUNDAY POEM > > "Beauty is truth, Truth beauty..." > > "But Bob..." > > "But Marcus..." However, it does lose some of its flavor without > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > those infinite pointy things. - a mild observer From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 20 13:56:27 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 10:56:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [crewrt-l] Poems by Others: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dorianne=A0Laux?=,"Cello" References: <20030420123850.005524@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <3EA2DF4A.801442B9@earthlink.net> Well, for reasons known to some, I especially like this one. Thanks for posting. - Jim, ex-pro cellist Wendy Battin wrote: > > Cello > > When a dead tree falls in a forest > it often falls into the arms > of a living tree. The dead, > thus embraced, rasp in wind, > slowly carving a niche > in the living branch, sheering away > the rough outer flesh, revealing > the pinkish, yellowish, feverish > inner bark. For years > the dead tree rubs its fallen body > against the living, building > its dead music, making its raw mark, > wearing the tough bough down, > moaning in wind, the deep > rosined bow sound of the living > shouldering the dead. > > Dorianne?Laux > > from _Poets Against the War_, ed. Sam Hamill, Thunder's Mouth > Press/Nation Books, 2003 > ? > ------------------------ > Wendy Battin > wjbat at conncoll.edu > > The wall between where we are? > and the Self is called the mind. > > --S. J. Bharat > > ----------------------------------------------- > Report list problems to listmom at interversity.net From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 20 14:04:38 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:04:38 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] regarding post-traumatic stress disorder References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030420094822.012eeec8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3EA2E135.2E9A4BAF@earthlink.net> Would like to have read the whole thing but that link results in a loop that goes from white screen to gray screen to white screen etc. - Jim, down the rabbit hole Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > I recall the great Harry Truman remarked with fear the violence that > soldiers returning from WW2 would bring into the hometowns and streets of > America. Here a good article, chirren. Could I ask the right-wingers here > to write some war ballads for us? I'd like to put them on my blog. > > "I didn't expect the whole civilian thing," said Lance Cpl. Jack Self, > never taking his finger off the trigger of his grenade launcher. He watched > a woman tugging two heavily laden donkeys away from a stone house that > could provide cover to snipers. He had blasted other buildings like it and > found bodies in the rubble. > "Part of me wants to kill everything I see. You just can't trust anybody," > he said. "I hope there's nobody in that building when I destroy it." > > http://www.sanmateocountytimes.com/Stories/0,1413,87%7E11268%7E1336907,00.html > > _____________________________________________________ > "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things > they misname empire; and where they make > a wilderness, the Motherfuckers call it peace." -- Tacitus > > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790 > office 309.438.5284 > > http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 20 15:15:47 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:15:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Fluffy Flarf" Message-ID: <3EA2F1E3.E601DC79@earthlink.net> Fluffy Flarf Here comes Peter Cottontail about your dark hand clouding my skin, about the tar your face pushed into my eyes, its origin in pre-Christian fertility lore. The Hare and the peach pits contain small, minute amounts of cyanide. However his saver has Easter bunnies hopping around two researchers thinking the quantity of peach pits available for Easter Bunny in memory of all the bunnies we couldn't save. Wood shavings and peach pits add visual interest to our site update at Sears Portrait Studio, where kids at the Astor Place Kmart were treated to an unusual sight: the Easter Bunny getting cuffed by New York City cops, the pen lines of hollowed peaches. During WWII, civilians were asked to save peach pits for the war effort. Why? is not available. Click here to be redirected to our Home. - Jim From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 20 15:18:44 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 21:18:44 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] woods Message-ID: <010101c30771$a98a0700$f5737450@anny> for a friend of mine who is "opening" his new wood on the first days of june, any feedback is appreciated, thank you, anny tree wood fire warmth warmth fire wood tree i spent spring-time watching the tree grow it started by singing its liquid green and I was waiting there waiting for it to appear that was still february and then march and the cold again and april froze with harsh snow on surrounding peaks but may was here and the wood precipitated into the world with the most tender green venus had promised to daring man an avalanche of festivities with soft clouds and brilliant colors and winds bouncing back and forth the most tender softness earth could show summer gave shadows to delight every presence and fresh leisure in meandering paths with berries straws mushrooms and birds fall again but of the glowing kind with those never-ending hills up and down & red & blue & yellow to be sure when the white of ice detached mount from sky and leaves rattled down in their last symphonic act of the year their lymph sucked out by its muffled final touch tree wood fire warmth warmth fire wood tree albero bosco fuoco calore calore fuoco bosco albero passai la primavera ad osservare l?albero crescere inizi? cantando i suoi verdi liquidi e io me ne stavo l? ad attendere apparissero era ancora febbraio e quindi marzo e il freddo di nuovo e aprile diaccio e aspre nevi sui picchi circostanti ma maggio arriv? e il bosco precipit? fin dentro nel mondo con il verde pi? tenero venere avesse mai promesso a uomo temerario una valanga di feste con nuvole soffici e colori brillanti e venti che rimbalzavano ovunque la dolcezza pi? tenera la terra potesse mostrare l?estate diede ombre al piacere di ogni presenza e respiro fresco ai sentieri serpeggianti con bacche paglie funghi e uccelli autunno gi? ma del tipo rutilante con quei colli che mai ebbero fine su e gi? e rossi e blu e gialli di sicuro quando il bianco del ghiaccio stacc? il mondo dal cielo e le foglie s?acciottolarono in mucchi nell?ultimo atto sinfonico dell?anno la linfa risucchiata dal tocco finale smorzato albero bosco fuoco calore calore fuoco bosco albero -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Sun Apr 20 15:24:25 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 21:24:25 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] cervantes' mills Message-ID: <011001c30772$74c77240$f5737450@anny> a very sad song this one, written some time ago, nothing to do with war but with existential lives, since its title is cervantes' mills, i dedicate it to James the celloist, anny this is this is it cervantes? mills the bodies slashed under the cynical swords of the enemy uncontrolled forces dragged legs, arms, carcasses everywhere smashed was common sen-sense never stir or defend yourself against the deaf madness of deficient dumb if its craving chooses to turn on you no defences are to be found there was no oxygen in the air a thick canvas trapped in mudded colors compact with slaughtered pieces in its riotous form fall had started the thousand headed monster was awaken hydra?s eyes sliced through hidden caverns all forms/feelings sucked by its fanatic thirst of blood and destruction and we stare at the vanishing light of what was us reduced to nothingness, all to be constructed again the countless dead will never find their sacred burial we are mourning in the void and forever will -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Sun Apr 20 03:51:29 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:51:29 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Taxonomy, Astrology, Giggling Toxicity In-Reply-To: <200304201530.h3KFU2ST020279@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304201530.h3KFU2ST020279@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Astrology is just as invalid as Theology. Astrology does not begin, as Mr. Bales tells Mr. Grumman: > I challenge the premises of astrology, not whether an astrologist >can calculate a secant. And an error in the calculation of a secant doesn?t >have any impact on a challenge to the premise of the system. That?s why, you >see, Bob, one challenges the premises of the system rather than examines every >detail. Nor: > >>You?ve >>developed a system of categorization, to be sure, but it?s no more scientific >>than the system of classifying types of influences the stars have on human >>behavior, or the influences the bumps on your head have on your character. Mr. Bales is not engaging the premises of Astrology, he's beating up Mr. Grumman with a Cargo Cult straw dog he calls, "Astrology." As to "Phrenology," well, this is an entirely different thing. Recent investigation into where within the brain our various skills, talents, memories, etc. are "located" would seem to reflect, at least, a resemblance to what the Phrenologists were intending. It would seem, also, that Mr. Bales would attack with vehemence the medical proceedure called, "Acupuncture." However, I agree with most of what Mr. Bales offers. I'll have to look at Mr. Grumman's presentation with the Haiku publication and determine whether it is what I suppose it to be: A cartography very much like the famous Sol Steinberg map of New York City and parts to the West. Apt to be very amusing. ====== (Off topic: Mr. GG continues to misrepresent and malign friends of mine who serve in the armed forces that protect in part Mr. GG's liberty to sound off against them with impunity. What this exercise in finding ways to undermine the confidence in America in which 80% of its citizens believe has to do with "Poetry" is anyone's guess. (Perhaps, Mr. Grumman's taxonomy can provide an answer.) If anyone cares to examine Mr. G's posts on 9/11/01, I'll bet $50.00 that he didn't stand up forthrightly on the side of America and the President. He stood with the poets of "100 Days" and The St. Marks Poetry Project who are adamantly against the President and all the successful steps that have been taken since 9/11/01 to stabilize the world.) >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Poems by others: Guillaume Apollinaire, "The Pretty >Redhead" (Deborah Russell) > 2. Re: Announcement Regarding my Tazonomy (Deborah Russell) > 3. Re: Announcement Regarding my Tazonomy (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) > 4. Re: Announcement Regarding my Tazonomy (Bob Grumman) > 5. Re: Announcement Regarding my TaXonomy (Bob Grumman) > 6. >=?Windows-1252?Q?Poems_by_others:_Jacques_Pr=E9vert_and_Georges_Perec?= >(Halvard Johnson) > 7. regarding post-traumatic stress disorder (Gabriel Gudding) > 8. Re: Gioia at the NEA (marcus at designerglass.com) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >From: "Deborah Russell" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Guillaume Apollinaire, >"The Pretty Redhead" >Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:57:08 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Thanks for posting. - Deborah > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >From: "Deborah Russell" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Announcement Regarding my Tazonomy >Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 15:05:42 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >I will look for them. >If you are arrested, you should forward your address. - Deborah > >For those of you eager to read more about my taxonomy, and see specimens, >the upcoming issue of Modern Haiku will have 7 whole pages devoted to it, >complete with a little taxonomy diagram (identified as such). I feel good >about it. Right now I think it ranks with my mnmlst poetry essay, which I >consider among my very best essays. I just hope the editors get the issue >out before Marcus has them, and me, arrested for fraud. > >--Bob G. > > > > > > >Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet > >Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide >Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind > >_________________________________________________________________ >Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 3 >From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com >Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 15:22:41 EDT >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Announcement Regarding my Tazonomy >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >--part1_125.20d4f2dd.2bd2fc01_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >This day bearing the near sacred breath of the holiday tweener, all forms of >ignominious artistic classification are, alas, legally protected by laws >Deuteronomyc, wherein sayeth Moses: Nothing is certain save death and >taxonomies. Speaking of which, check out Doonesbury. > >Jeffrey Levine (pfee, pfie, pfo, phylum . . . ) > >In a message dated 4/19/03 3:07:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >sellwein at hotmail.com writes: > >> I will look for them. >> If you are arrested, you should forward your address. - Deborah >> >> For those of you eager to read more about my taxonomy, and see specimens, >> the upcoming issue of Modern Haiku will have 7 whole pages devoted to it, >> complete with a little taxonomy diagram (identified as such). I feel good >> about it. Right now I think it ranks with my mnmlst poetry essay, which I >> consider among my very best essays. I just hope the editors get the issue >> out before Marcus has them, and me, arrested for fraud. >> >> --Bob G. >> > > >--part1_125.20d4f2dd.2bd2fc01_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">This day bearing the near sacred breath of the holiday= > tweener, all forms of ignominious artistic classification are, alas, legall= >y protected by laws Deuteronomyc, wherein sayeth Moses: Nothing is certain s= >ave death and taxonomies. Speaking of which, check out Doonesbury.
>
>Jeffrey Levine (pfee, pfie, pfo, phylum . . . )
>
>In a message dated 4/19/03 3:07:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sellwein at hotmai= >l.com writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I will look for them.
>If you are arrested, you should forward your address. - Deborah
>
>For those of you eager to read more about my taxonomy, and see specimens, R> >the upcoming issue of Modern Haiku will have 7 whole pages devoted to it, R> >complete with a little taxonomy diagram (identified as such).  I feel g= >ood
>about it.  Right now I think it ranks with my mnmlst poetry essay, whic= >h I
>consider among my very best essays.  I just hope the editors get the is= >sue
>out before Marcus has them, and me, arrested for fraud.
>
>--Bob G.
>

>
> >--part1_125.20d4f2dd.2bd2fc01_boundary-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 4 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Announcement Regarding my Tazonomy >Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 17:29:48 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> I will look for them. >> If you are arrested, you should forward your address. - Deborah > >My gosh--is it possible inmates of jails are denied e.mail!!???? I'd better >withdraw my essay at once! > >--Bob G. > > >> For those of you eager to read more about my taxonomy, and see specimens, > > the upcoming issue of Modern Haiku will have 7 whole pages devoted to it, >> complete with a little taxonomy diagram (identified as such). I feel good >> about it. Right now I think it ranks with my mnmlst poetry essay, which I >> consider among my very best essays. I just hope the editors get the issue >> out before Marcus has them, and me, arrested for fraud. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet >> >> Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide >> Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 5 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Announcement Regarding my TaXonomy >Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 17:32:18 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_0198_01C30699.A07522E0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > This day bearing the near sacred breath of the holiday tweener, all = >forms of ignominious artistic classification are, alas, legally = >protected by laws Deuteronomyc, wherein sayeth Moses: Nothing is certain = >save death and taxonomies. Speaking of which, check out Doonesbury.=20 > > Yeah, but the problem is that the nippleless thing I'm claiming is a = >taxonomy is NOT, and surely THAT can't be protected! > > --Bob G. > > >------=_NextPart_000_0198_01C30699.A07522E0 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = >0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> >
> FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">This day bearing the near sacred breath of the = >holiday=20 > tweener, all forms of ignominious artistic classification are, alas, = >legally=20 > protected by laws Deuteronomyc, wherein sayeth Moses: Nothing is = >certain save=20 > death and taxonomies. Speaking of which, check out Doonesbury.=20 >
>
> FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">Yeah, but the problem is that the nippleless = >thing I'm=20 > claiming is a taxonomy is NOT, and surely THAT can't be=20 > protected!
>
> FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"> 
>
> FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">--Bob = >G.
> >------=_NextPart_000_0198_01C30699.A07522E0-- > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 6 >From: "Halvard Johnson" >To: "New-Poetry" >Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 10:01:23 -0400 >Subject: [New-Poetry] >=?Windows-1252?Q?Poems_by_others:_Jacques_Pr=E9vert_and_Georges_Perec?= >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > Pater Noster > > Our Father who art in heaven > Stay there > And we'll stay here on earth > Which is sometimes so pretty > With its mysteries of New York > And its mysteries of Paris > At least as good as that of the Trinity > With its little canal at Ourcq > Its great wall of China > Its river at Morlaix > Its candy canes > With its Pacific Ocean > And its two basins in the Tuileries > With its good children and bad people > With all the wonders of the world > Which are here > Simply on the earth > Offered to everyone > Strewn about > Wondering at the wonder of themselves > And daring not avow it > As a naked pretty girl dares not show herself > With the world's outrageous misfortunes > Which are legion > With legionaries > With torturers > With the masters of this world >The masters with their priests their traitors and their troops > With the seasons > With the years > With the pretty girls and with the old bastards > With the straw of misery rotting in the steel > of cannons. > >--Jacques Pr?vert, tr. Lawrence Ferlinghetti > >fr. *Paroles* 1946 >and City Lights Books, 1958 > >also in *The Random House Book of Twentieth-Century French Poetry* >ed., Paul Auster [New York: Random House,1982] > > > >Lines read at Alix-Cl?o Blanchette's and Jacques Roubaud's Bridal > >Alix-Cl?o is joined to Jacques >and Jacques is joined to Alix-Cl?o > >This is a delicious coincidence >and so at this hour >both are allied and united >as are bird and branch >Aucassin and Nicolette >table and chair >science and doubt >desert and oasis >*tilia* and *quercus* >quill and tale >sunrise and sunset >absence and trace >bee and linden > >It's a nice hour in June >the sun shines on Ile de la Cit? >on their transistor radios dealers in used literature listen to >Alessandro Scarlatti's *Sonate a quattro* >harassed tourists ascend the stairs to Sacr?-Coeur >on Rue de la Huchette blue-jeaned Dutch lasses sound their banjos and binious > >The entire earth stretches out around us >its unsounded oceans >its lochs, its tablelands, its channels >its hills and its tundras >its sand dune, its hidden treasures, its islands, its roadsteads, >its crude oil and its turbines >its bauxites and rare soils >its basilicas, its haunted castles, its ruined bastions >its adult scouts in hot-red raincoats that chant carols at the hours >close to the sacred birth >its crescent-lensed notaries that read the late editions under old burners >its retired colonels in council at the *tabac* on Rue Saint-Louis-en-l'Ile >its carousers that exit antiquated discos and then scatter >its slant-lidded Siberians that ride across the Tuba in birch canoes >its beret-clad excursionists that assault the Ballon d'Alsace >its austere Jansenists that recite Exodus and Isaiah >its circus ballerinas balanced on their obedient steeds >its D.Litt.'s that discuss Judeo-Christian structures in H?lderlin's discourse >its obese Irish chars that collect salted dills and beer (in cans) >in a Bronx delicatessen > >Here blue surrounds the sun, or soon shall >Let's abandon the era's raucousness > tornadoes and clouds >Let's listen to the linnet's tune >to the cat stretched out in the den next to Bescherelle's *Dictionnaire* >quiet quotidian sounds >the heart's beat > >These occasional lines >that do not concern >either carious teeth >or roots that clutch >or the author etherised on a table >or the *Coccinella cardinalis* >or the 1848 Constitution >are here inscribed to usher in this betrothal > >Let decades rich in elation and delectation >bless Alix-Cl?o and Jacques >those here saluted >and let there arise in the east > a sable jet salute: childhood >and in the south > a turquoise blue salute: adulthood >and next > non-existence's ochre abalone salute > that cannot be calculated or uttered >and in the north > an alabaster seashell salute: the Resurrection > >and let the Southern Cross salute Alix-Cl?o and Jacques >and the star that heralds the sunset >and all the constellations >and all the nebulae > >and that as sunrise starts >at the hour that bleaches the surround >both stride quite around the earth's bounds and the stars. > >George Perec, tr. Harry Matthews > >fr. *?pithalames*, 1982 >in *Oulipo Compendium*, eds. Harry Matthews and Alastair Brotchie >[London: Atlas Press, 1998] > > >Hal > >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 7 >Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 09:56:46 -0500 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: Gabriel Gudding >Subject: [New-Poetry] regarding post-traumatic stress disorder >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >I recall the great Harry Truman remarked with fear the violence that >soldiers returning from WW2 would bring into the hometowns and streets of >America. Here a good article, chirren. Could I ask the right-wingers here >to write some war ballads for us? I'd like to put them on my blog. > >"I didn't expect the whole civilian thing," said Lance Cpl. Jack Self, >never taking his finger off the trigger of his grenade launcher. He watched >a woman tugging two heavily laden donkeys away from a stone house that >could provide cover to snipers. He had blasted other buildings like it and >found bodies in the rubble. >"Part of me wants to kill everything I see. You just can't trust anybody," >he said. "I hope there's nobody in that building when I destroy it." > >http://www.sanmateocountytimes.com/Stories/0,1413,87%7E11268%7E1336907,00.html > >_____________________________________________________ > "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things > they misname empire; and where they make > a wilderness, the Motherfuckers call it peace." -- Tacitus > > >Gabriel Gudding >Department of English >Illinois State University >Normal, IL 61790 >office 309.438.5284 > >http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html >http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 8 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: marcus at designerglass.com >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA >Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:29:35 GMT >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Marcus Bales: >> Unless you're prepared to offer a set of categories and a set of >> definitions for the poems so that when one comes across the >> equivalent of a nipple one can say "Aha! this poem is a such-and-such >> poem!" and nearly 100% of readers agree, you don't have scientific >> rigor. > >Bob Grumman: >> I still can't believe you have looked at my taxonomy. It's at >> http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/lit-tax.html >> What in the world do you think I'm doing there if not defining terms?< > >You?re not defining your terms in any scientific sense: you're simply not >showing how your terms and their definitions reflect or embody unvarying >necessities that let users make inferences based on the scientific >rigor of the >relation between the terms and the underlying scientific theory. There IS NO >underlying scientific theory. It is impossible to use your categories about >poetry, or anyone else's, with any scientific rigor because POETRY IS A >VOLITIONAL ACTIVITY. You might as well try to taxonomize prayer or astrology >charts or desk sizes in executive offices or any other silly attempt >to "taxonomize" what cannot be taxonomized. > >Your definitions, in short, are personal, not scientific. You don?t connect >your definitions to a theory of poetry that has any scientific >rigor. You don?t >offer any experimental data, or even offer a proposed experiment that could >test your hypotheses if only the right conditions occurred, as Einstein did >with how starlight bent. Your hypothesis is simply not scientific. Instead >you?re using scientific-sounding words to pretend to science. It?s scientism, >it?s hokum, and if you persist in it after having this pointed out >to you, it?s >fraud. > >You've claimed that you are trying for scientific rigor and you've denied at >the same time without apparently understanding what you're doing that there is >any possibility of scientific rigor in your collection of categories. It is >becoming clearer and clearer that your notion about how science works, what it >is, and what it's for -- and what it's not for -- is no better than a child >with his sand bucket at the beach who declares to his parents that he's going >to dig to China. > >You're doing nothing more than any other poetry anthologist has ever done, >which is try to persuade some small but hopefully significant portion of the >people who talk about poetry to take up his or her terminology instead of >earlier terminology. Isn't that enough for you? You're working in a long >tradition of people who have tried to impose their views of what poetry is on >the poetry-appreciating audience. > >You simply haven't got any scientific rigor in your taxonomy because you're >unable (no one as far as I know is able, so this is not a dig at you >personally, it is an attempt to state facts that have nothing to do with you >personally) to so define your terms within the context of a theory >of poetry so >that when people come across something you've defined they can predict where >they are within your taxonomy -- as a biologist does when, examining an animal >and finding a nipple, can say "Aha! This is a mammal!". > >Nothing in your taxonomy shows that if we find three consecutive lines of >rhymed tetrameter that we have a tetrameter poem, or a poem at all. >It might be >prose that accidentally rhymes for all your system helps. It's nonsense as >science, Bob, however helpful you may think it would be to talk about poetry >using your terms instead of IA Richards's or Matthew Arnold's or Charles >Olson's. It is still the raw bare case that all you've got is another >alternative collection of terms that have no more necessary connection to the >reality of what poetry is than Aristotle had, or than I have. > >Poetry is a field where there is no objective truth, Bob -- there are only >subjective opinions. You are trying to PRETEND that you have objective truth >because you are using the form of a scientific taxonomy and have invented >neologism to substitute for words others have used to describe much the same >thing as you're trying to describe. > >Not only that but the very terms themselves, such as "burstnorm" are agenda- >driven, and your tone and manner, together with your content, make clear that >yours is just another attempt to substitute one set of terms for >another on the >basis of persistence without the faintest indication that there is any >necessary reason to do so beyond your own personal desire to use your terms >instead of someone else's. > >Marcus Bales: >> And so long as you admit that you don't even WANT to predict >> what category the poem goes in, and that your system does NOT make >> that prediction or offer a guide to readers to draw successful >> inferences, your calling your system a "taxonomy" is pseudo-science, >> no different from astrology or phrenology. > >Bob Grumman: >> Why this need of yours to use the word "predict?" Can't you accept that you >> and I use it differently? >> Where does the OED definition of taxonomy say anything about predicting? >> Where does ANY definition of taxonomy say anything about it? > >What science does is two things: posits hypotheses about the world and tests >those hypotheses against the world to see if they are reasonably accurate. You >have made no hypothesis about how poetry works, what it is, or why it needs >categorization by you or anyone else. Your categorization claims, and YOU >claim, no predictive value for your system; there is nothing your system does >for its users, or for readers of poetry, that IA Richards' or Aristotle's >doesn't do. You have failed completely to show that your hypothesis is >scientific, and you haven't even tried to test it in any scientific way. > >> Bob Grumman: >> Yeah, and can instantly place any bacterium he comes across.<< > >Marcus Bales: >> It's not a matter of "instantly" -- you're adding a time-frame >> element that isn't necessary,<< > >Bob Grumman; >> I didn't add it--you did when you suggested a biologist could place a >> specimen once he saw a nipple--in other words, instantly > >When they saw the SARS virus they could say it was a Corona-virus, Bob -- they >knew how to start testing for it and how to start figuring out how to fight >against it. It's not a matter of "instantly" -- it's a matter of recognition, >whether of the characteristics of a Corona-virus or of a mammal. The experts >recognize things relatively quickly; the less expert less quickly, and non- >experts perhaps not at all. > >Marcus Bales: >> though many experts in their fields are > > indeed very quick at those identifications. > >Bob Grumman: >> and misidentifications > >What's next, Bob, an impassioned defense of Intelligent Design as a theory of >how the world works as an equally valid explanation with evolution? > >Of course there are misidentifications -- but they are identified as >misidentifications, and corrections are made. Science is self-correcting >because as soon as some clown puts out a taxonomy of poetry and claims that >it's scientifically rigorous then actual scientists start examining it, and >looking for ways to test the hypothesis and to test whether the experimental >methods of the original researcher are sound and the conclusions valid. > >What you've got here in your soi disant "taxonomy", Bob, is classic pseudo- >science. Your "taxonomy" is like the bamboo headphones of the cargo >cult people >on some southern Pacific islands who also carve radio-like chunks of wood and >light fires beside the runways they hack out of the jungle hoping that such >ritualistic simulcra will make the cargo planes come back. You?re hoping that >if you use scientific-sounding words you?re doing science ? but >that?s as wrong >as the notion that a bamboo antenna on a block of wood carved to look like a >radio will pick up NPR. > >> Bob Grumman: >> I NEVER said that. I said it had no predictive value--using the >> dictionary definition of "predictive." < > >Marcus Bales: >> ... of course you said that your >> taxonomy is not predictive -- that it has no predictive power. You've >> said it again and again. > >Bob Grumman: >> Yes, I did! But I was using "predict" as primarily to foretell the future, >> not as find a place in a system for.<< > >Well, Bob, welcome to the wonderful world of science, because that's the kind >of prediction that scientists mean when they say that a system has to be >predictive. It?s not enough to just use words that scientists have used, Bob ? >you have to use them scientifically, you have to find out what they mean and >use them right. > >Bob Grumman: >> That ALLOWS for, not that MAKES predictions > >The predictions are inherent in the system, as the conclusion of a >syllogism is >inherent in the premises -- that's what gives such limited systems as >syllogisms and taxonomies their great power, and their great limitations, as >well. When a mammal is defined as an animal with nipples, and you >find nipples, >well guess what, Bob? You've got a mammal. > >Bob Grumman: >> I say "all livenorm poetry adheres to a norm significantly more than >> it does not."<< > >But Bob, that?s like saying ?all giraffes adhere to the giraffe-like more than >they do not? ? it?s tautological because you don?t say what the norm IS. You >haven?t got an underlying scientific theory. You haven?t even got an >hypothesis. You?ve got nothing but the outward forms: you?re offering a cargo- >cult version of a taxonomy, not a real one. > >And what does ?significantly more than? mean, anyway? Can you imagine a >scientist saying that the way you identify mammals is that they adhere to >mammalian characteristics ?significantly more than? fish do? No, Bob ? mammals >adhere to mammalian characteristics ALL THE TIME because (guess what, Bob?) >they are mammals! > >The very fact that you have to resort to such locutions as ?significantly more >than? instead of saying ?all the time? demonstrates the unscientific character >of your endeavor. You have no science here, Bob ? all you?ve got is >opinion and >an determination to try to substitute your set of non-scientific terms for an >existing set of non-scientific terms. > > Bob Grumman: >> Subjectivity does come into the question of "significant use" but it's >obvious in >> almost all cases, and no taxonomy's categories are airtight.<< > >Damn right subjectivity comes into it there ? and comes into it with a >vengeance. And you?re wrong about a taxonomy?s categories not being airtight, >Bob ? they ARE airtight because scientific taxonomies are descriptions of non- >volitional natural phenomena, non-volitional mutations aside. But in poetry, >Bob, you may remember, we have human beings making it, not some natural >phenomenon. A taxonomy in biology has an underlying theory about how natural >phenomena work. Yours has no such theory. You have, apparently, no theory at >all ? all you have is a determination to replace existing non-scientific terms >with your own non-scientific neologisms ? as if there were any significance in >replacing ?lyric? with ?songmode?! > >You are offering nothing but a metaphorical taxonomy ? it?s not >scientific, and >you yourself deny it?s scientific on the one hand while you claim it is >scientific on the other. Your claims are confused. > >Bob Grumman: >>Assuming I could call it metaphorical, what would it change?< > >You?d change your claim fundamentally: you?d no longer be claiming that the >weight and power of scientific explanation was on your side so that you could >claim to be right and those who disagree with you wrong. You?d no longer be >able to claim that your system is objective. You?d have to make reasonable >arguments in favor of adopting your new system of terms as making a degree of >change to the existing kind of other systems of terms, instead of >claiming that >your new system of terms represented a different kind of system. > >What you clearly want is to claim that your system of naming is different in >kind, not in degree. You want to claim that science is on your side, and that >your so-called ?taxonomy? represents a sea-change in how people will think >about poetry. But it?s nothing of the kind. It?s just more of the same >subjective attempt to try to describe what poetry is, how it works, and why we >think it?s important. > >But that you?ve discovered the scientific principles of poetry, and have >developed a taxonomy for us to use based on those principles, is just not the >case, Bob. You?ve just re-named a lot of existing subjective categories with >your own subjective neologisms. > >Marcus Bales: >> But the VALUE of a taxonomy is precisely that you >> can look at part and classify the whole. If you can't do that then > > you don't have a taxonomy. > >Bob Grumman: >>That's good to know.< > >Unfortunately for your system, you clearly don?t know it ? or if you know it >now, you didn?t know it when you made your claim that you?d developed a >taxonomy of literature. Now that you know it, I hope you can see that your >claim to have developed a taxonomy of literature is just so much >manure. You?ve >developed a system of categorization, to be sure, but it?s no more scientific >than the system of classifying types of influences the stars have on human >behavior, or the influences the bumps on your head have on your character. > >Marcus Bales: >> category and ignore the typography as irrelevant to the poem's >> categorization. > >Bob Grumman: >>But the definition says it is not irrelevant.< > >And that?s what convicts your system of scientism, Bob ? that only the >definition, and not the underlying theory, says it?s not irrelevant. >You have a >purely verbal construct in your system of classification. It has no >explanatory >force, it has no persuasive power. It is straightforwardly subjective ? there >is no more necessity to agree with you about what terms to use about >describing >poetry than there is to agree with you about what terms to use to describe >political acts. > >Bob Grumman: >> You are just arguing your use of "predictive" against mine so you can escape >> having to try to find something wrong with my taxonomy. Instead of saying >> it's no good because I say it is not predictive, why not look at it and >> judge it on what it is instead of what you think I mean to be saying about >> it because I use the term, "predictive" differently from you.<< > >I?m saying your system of classification is NOT SCIENTIFIC. You have been >basing your claim that your system has value on the claim that your system >is ?objective? and ?scientific? when it is no more objective than your >political opinions (whatever they are) and no more scientific than a >cargo cult. > >If you want to try to offer non-scientific-claim reasons that you >think that we >should call ?lyric? ?songmode? go to it ? but to try to claim the >reason to use >the latter is that it?s more scientific is just plain bunk. > >Bob Grumman: >> You don't need to find even a single example of > > an error in astrology to find it bunk?! By the way, are you a Taurus? > >That?s right, I challenge the premises of astrology, not whether an >astrologist >can calculate a secant. And an error in the calculation of a secant doesn?t >have any impact on a challenge to the premise of the system. That?s why, you >see, Bob, one challenges the premises of the system rather than examines every >detail. > >Bob Grumman: >>I really wonder >> just what you think I'm doing.Or, I should say, why I've wasted some 30 >> years working on something as flawed as you seem to think my system is > >Marcus Bales: >> Well, there's a famous story about Frege and Russell, Bob. Russell >> pointed out just before Frege's book was going to press that Frege's >> fifth theorem was not sound. But scientists don't make claims such >> as that "But I put 30 years into that!" as an attempt to try to get >> their theories accepted. > >Bob Grumman: >> I made an aside having to doing with how you could think I'd put thirty >> years into something without knowing anything about what I was doing. In >> other words, I'm wondering just what makes you think I am beyond belief >> stupid. > >I don?t say you?re stupid, Bob ? I say that your system of classification is >not scientific, and that if you claim it is, you have misunderstood what makes >something scientific.. Further, that you?ve put 30 years into trying to find >the scientific principles underlying poetry doesn?t make you stupid, either ? >but so far the results of your time and energy are not encouraging. That >doesn?t mean it can?t be done ? only that you haven?t done it. > > > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- From sellwein at hotmail.com Sun Apr 20 15:59:16 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:59:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [crewrt-l] Poems by Others: Dorianne Laux,"Cello" Message-ID: Very nice, much appreciation. - Deborah Well, for reasons known to some, I especially like this one. Thanks for posting. - Jim, ex-pro cellist Wendy Battin wrote: > > Cello > > When a dead tree falls in a forest > it often falls into the arms > of a living tree. The dead, > thus embraced, rasp in wind, > slowly carving a niche > in the living branch, sheering away > the rough outer flesh, revealing > the pinkish, yellowish, feverish > inner bark. For years > the dead tree rubs its fallen body > against the living, building > its dead music, making its raw mark, > wearing the tough bough down, > moaning in wind, the deep > rosined bow sound of the living > shouldering the dead. > > Dorianne?Laux > > from _Poets Against the War_, ed. Sam Hamill, Thunder's Mouth > Press/Nation Books, 2003 > ? > ------------------------ > Wendy Battin > wjbat at conncoll.edu > > The wall between where we are? > and the Self is called the mind. > > --S. J. Bharat _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sun Apr 20 17:01:22 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 14:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Condensed Version Message-ID: <20030420210123.7EF024781@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Halvard Johnson" Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Condensed Version Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:48:59 -0400 Size: 3670 URL: From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon Apr 21 06:46:36 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 06:46:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] on Silliman's blog Message-ID: <001101c307f3$4cab06b0$27fef343@Dell> Hotel Amerika: Design before vision A letter from Tsering Wangmo Dhompa: The poetics of exile & the work of Tenzin Tsundue, a Tibetan poet writing in English in India Bromige's Spicer: Authenticizing As in T as in Tether Organizing my books to read in the sun Tsering Wangmo Dhompa: A Tibetan-American poet Lamenting the Tijuana Bible of Poetics More on the death of Rachel Corrie More on the Berkeley Poetry Conference & Live at the Writers House Joanne Kyger's Ten Shines Mytili Jagannathan, Jenn McCreary, Frank Sherlock, Andrew Zitcer, Joshua Schuster, your truly & Need New Body: Live @ the Writers House Edgar Bowers' "A Fragment: The Cause" - Is Knopf's poetry list deliberately embarrassing? Chris Stroffolino on depoliticization & the differences between 1974, 1989 & now James Wagner's False Sun Recordings: a practitioner of compactness Creeley's Yesterdays http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 21 07:51:01 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 07:51:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement Regarding my Tazonomy In-Reply-To: <015e01c306a5$18fb51c0$84a7fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EA3A2E5.3686.B6F30@localhost> On 19 Apr 2003 at 14:54, Bob Grumman wrote: > For those of you eager to read more about my taxonomy, and see specimens, the upcoming issue of Modern Haiku will have 7 whole pages devoted to it, complete with a little taxonomy diagram (identified as such). I feel good about it. Right now I think it ranks with my mnmlst poetry essay, which I consider among my very best essays. I just hope the editors get the issue out before Marcus has them, and me, arrested for fraud.<< The danger for you and those editors isn't the police, Bob, it's reasonable people who see through your scientism. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 21 08:57:15 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:57:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <004201c3075e$4574ab20$d902fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EA3B26B.26158.4812D8@localhost> > > Bob Grumman: > > > . I say "all livenorm poetry adheres to a norm significantly more than > > > it does not."<< Marcus Bales: > > Can you imagine a > > scientist saying that the way you identify mammals is that they adhere to > > mammalian characteristics "significantly more than" fish do? No, Bob - mammals > > adhere to mammalian characteristics ALL THE TIME because (guess what, > > Bob?) they are mammals! Bob Grumman: > Quote one biologist who thinks that all species are as easy to put into a > genus as mammals, a pretty special case, are.<< Here you are again, with the non-scientific demands, Bob. It doesn't seem to occur to you that there are no authorities in science; there is no one who either of us can quote dispositively because what makes science science is, in part, that there are no authorities -- there is only experiment. Even if I were to quote one, or ten, or a hundred scientists who agreed with me it would be no evidence that I'm right. The evidence that I'm right is in the way the taxonomy of living things is used by biologists daily because it works -- because it conforms to the underlying science. Your system of categorization has no underlying science, Bob -- it has no science at all. You're using terms that sound scientific, but in a cargo-cult way: you're imitating the wrong things, Bob. To be science you have to have an hypothesis about how things work and a proposed explanation that can be tested in the real world. Neither Christianity nor Islam, for example, though each has an explanation of how things work, is science because their explanations cannot be tested in the real world. Marcus Bales: > > The very fact that you have to resort to such locutions as "significantly more > > than" instead of saying "all the time" demonstrates the unscientific character > > of your endeavor. Bob Grumman: > No. It indicates that the object I am attempting to classify are more > difficult to classify than living creatures are ...<< Whether easier or more difficult is simply not the issue. The issue is that you have no theory of how poetry works, or even what it is, that is testable in the real world. I'm doubtful that anyone can say what poetry is in the real world because the moment someone has the temerity to say "This is poetry, but that is not" someone like Hal Johnson uses "that" in a poem and claims it IS TOO poetry, thus confounding the purported taxonomy. There is a fundamental difference between trying to make subjective categories, as you are trying to do, and trying to make objective categories, as scientists try to do. That difference is inherent in the phenomena that each are attempting to categorize. There can simply be no scientific taxonomy of a volitional endeavor, Bob, because some of those with volition will always be trying to find ways to confute or refute the rules. You're in the position of a lexicographer, Bob -- you want to be prescriptive about something it is only possible to be descriptive about, and you're flailing away shouting that people have to conform to your system of categorization because you claim it's scientific. Well, Bob, it's not scientific. It's bunk as science. The question is whether it's any good as a subjective way to talk about poetry. Marcus Bales: > >And you're wrong about a taxonomy's categories not being airtight, > > Bob - they ARE airtight because scientific taxonomies are descriptions of non- > > volitional natural phenomena, non-volitional mutations aside. Bob Grumman: > Find me a biologist who will agree with you that a taxonomy's categories are > airtight. Even the classification of the colors of the spectrum are > airtight only to the accuracy of our instruments.<< Exactly -- but within the limits of the accuracy of our instruments the categories are air-tight. But the scientist who invents a better instrument for discriminating between phenomena is still working within the underlying scientific theory, Bob: he or she is still making hypotheses and testing those hypotheses by experiments -- and they publish their results so that everyone else can do the tests, too, to see if they're right. But you, Bob -- you have neither theory nor experiment to offer. All you offer is neologistic terms for existing categories -- categories that do not themselves claim to be scientific. Marcus Bales: > > What you clearly want is to claim that your system of naming is different in > > kind, not in degree. Bob Grumman: > Wrong.< Wrong? Well, then you must claim that the existing ways to talk about poetry are ALSO scientific, which eviscerates your claim that your system is different and better. You can't have it both ways, Bob -- either you claim your system is scientific, objective, different from the existing system in kind, and better, or you have just another non-scientific, subjective and same kind of system as the existing one. Marcus Bales: > > You want to claim that science is on your side, and that > > your so-called "taxonomy" represents a sea-change in how people will think > > about poetry. Bob Grumman: > Completely wrong. And I can almost prove you are wrong about me. My > taxonomy is for me a very minor venture, an attempt to clarify things so as > to permit better communication about poetry. The near-proof that this is so > is that I am working on a theory of psychology that I DO think is a major > breakthrough--though no sea-change nor different in kind from previous such > theories. I consider my willingness to admit this a near-proof that I don't > consider my taxonomy major because it shows that I'm capable of admitting to > megalomania. That being the case, why would I not admit to it as the > creator of this taxonomy that so threatens you if it were the case there, too?<< It's not YOU that I'm saying is the problem, Bob -- I'm saying your work is wrong, not that you are a megalomaniac, nor that there is anything else wrong with you. I think it's pretty ignorant of the rules of inference to continually so misinterpret a criticism of your work that you take it as a criticism of your self, but ignorance is a curable condition, nothing that is "wrong with you". Marcus Bales: > >[ ... your system is] just more of the same > > subjective attempt to try to describe what poetry is, how it works, and why we > > think it's important. Bob Grumman: > I consider it an objective attempt todescribe what poetry is. I describe > how it works and why I consider it important elsewhere.< I, I, I, Bob. No one cares about what you think in science except insofar as your hypotheses prove out in experiment. Your resort to "I, I, I ..." demonstrates better than anything said so far that your system is a personal one, a subjective one, and not a scientific one. You offer no hypothesis about what poetry is and how it works that is testable in the real world by controlled and scientific experiment. You haven't done the work of scientific theorizing and you haven't done the work of scientific experiment. You've only tried to substitute scientific-sounding words for existing subjective terms describing existing subjective categories and have claimed the lot to be "scientific" and "objective" -- but it's nothing of the kind. Your system is not scientific, and what you're offering is not science. The question is whether it's valuable as a subjective interpretation since it's worthless in its claim to objectivity. Marcus Bales: > >You've just re-named a lot of existing subjective categories with > > your own subjective neologisms. Bob Grumman: > Drop "subjective" and I would go along with that, for the most part. Some > of the categories were unnamed before I tagged them. I feel I've arranged > the categories systematically, as well. But "subjective" is le mot juste, Bob: you've offered no scientific theory (one that is testable in the real world) and you've offered no scientific evidence (from experiments in the real world) that you have anything "objective" to offer. Marcus Bales: > > And that's what convicts your system of scientism, Bob - that only the > > definition, and not the underlying theory, says it's not irrelevant. You have a > > purely verbal construct in your system of classification. It has no explanatory > > force, it has no persuasive power. Bob Grumman: > It's not supposed to have these things. It CLASSIFIES.<< It has to classify according to an underlying scientific theory that is borne out by experiment in the real world, Bob, or it is merely a subjective classification, not an objective, not a scientific one. That you've classified stuff I don't deny. I only deny that you've done any science. You've done subjective classification, not objective classification. Marcus Bales: > > There is no more necessity to agree with you about what terms to use about describing > > poetry than there is to agree with you about what terms to use to describe > > political acts. Bob Grumman: > I have a political taxonomy, too.<< I didn't doubt it -- nor do I doubt that it is as subjective as all the others. Bob Grumman: > ... As for whether my taxonomy is scientific > or not is a subjective matter. It IS objective, though, because based on > material aspects of verbal texts.<< But it's not, Bob -- because you don't limit yourself to "verbal texts", and because "material aspects" is different from "material" in a notion such as "philosophical materialism". Here's how you do science, Bob: 1. Observe some aspect of the universe. 2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is consistent with what you have observed. 3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions. 4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in the light of your results. 5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation. You simply haven't done that, Bob. You've made no hypotheses about poetry, and you've made no predictions, and you have made not tests of your predictions. You simply haven't been doing science. > > That's right, I challenge the premises of astrology, not whether > > an astrologist can calculate a secant. And an error in the > > calculation of a secant doesn't have any impact on a challenge to > > the premise of the system. Bob Grumman: > And what is the premise of astrology?< That the positions and movements of objects seen in the sky predict the characters of people and the future of individuals and groups. Bob Grumman: > You still need to find an error in it, in this case in it premises. And you > can't just state the premises and say they're wrong. Well, what we do is we state the premises, then devise as honest a sequence of experiments as we can to test those premises, and if the experiments don't show what the premises posit then it's WRONG, Bob. That's what science is all about, you see: trying to separate nonsense from sense -- and that sometimes we still get nonsense because our instruments are not properly calibrated is not an indictment of the scientific method -- it's only an indictment of the experimental methodology. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 21 08:57:14 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:57:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] regarding post-traumatic stress disorder In-Reply-To: <17c.19c1ae2f.2bd419cb@cs.com> Message-ID: <3EA3B26A.27029.481180@localhost> On 20 Apr 2003 at 11:42, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Thomas Hardy. 1840??? > > 3. The Man He Killed > (From "The Dynasts") > > "HAD he and I but met > By some old ancient inn, > We should have sat us down to wet > Right many a nipperkin! > Christmas in the Trenches John McCutcheon My name is Francis Tolliver, I come from Liverpool. Two years ago the war was waiting for me after school. To Belgium and to Flanders, to Germany to here I fought for King and country I love dear. 'Twas Christmas in the trenches, where the frost so bitter hung, The frozen fields of France were still, no Christmas song was sung Our families back in England were toasting us that day Their brave and glorious lads so far away. I was lying with my messmate on the cold and rocky ground When across the lines of battle came a most peculiar sound Says I, ``Now listen up, me boys!'' each soldier strained to hear As one young German voice sang out so clear. ``He's singing bloody well, you know!'' my partner says to me Soon, one by one, each German voice joined in in harmony The cannons rested silent, the gas clouds rolled no more As Christmas brought us respite from the war As soon as they were finished and a reverent pause was spent ``God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen'' struck up some lads from Kent The next they sang was ``Stille Nacht.'' ``Tis `Silent Night','' says I And in two tongues one song filled up that sky ``There's someone coming toward us!'' the front line sentry cried All sights were fixed on one long figure trudging from their side His truce flag, like a Christmas star, shown on that plain so bright As he bravely strode unarmed into the night. Soon one by one on either side walked into No Man's Land With neither gun nor bayonet we met there hand to hand We shared some secret brandy and we wished each other well And in a flare-lit soccer game we gave 'em hell. We traded chocolates, cigarettes, and photographs from home These sons and fathers far away from families of their own Young Sanders played his squeezebox and they had a violin This curious and unlikely band of men. Soon daylight stole upon us and France was France once more With sad farewells we each prepared to settle back to war But the question haunted every heart that lived that wonderous night ``Whose family have I fixed within my sights?'' 'Twas Christmas in the trenches where the frost so bitter hung The frozen fields of France were warmed as songs of peace were sung For the walls they'd kept between us to exact the work of war Had been crumbled and were gone forevermore. My name is Francis Tolliver, in Liverpool I dwell Each Christmas come since World War I, I've learned its lessons well That the ones who call the shots won't be among the dead and lame And on each end of the rifle we're the same. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From JforJames at aol.com Mon Apr 21 09:02:09 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:02:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Partisan Review (& kayak) Message-ID: <1df.73921d5.2bd545d1@aol.com> In a message dated 4/17/03 3:31:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > a shame, given its illustrious early history. We have a complete set > from the late 40s and early 50s in our Poetry Room, and they're amazing mags. > The Partisan Review did seem to be living off its residual glory. A small magazine, even one as influential as Partisan once was, is only as good (energetic or insightful or odd yet compelling or goofy...) as its editor(s). _kayak_ was a very different kind of magazine (solely a poetry litmag). In the last P&W Magazine, Levine gives a laudatory account of _kayak_ and its prime mover, George Hitchcock. When Hitchcock shut it down, I remember thinking at the time what a shame he couldn't find someone to hand it off to, but as he knowingly wrote: "With the publication of #64, _kayak_ completes 20 years of continuous service: any more and it would risk becoming an institution. After that, ossification and rigor mortis. So we think it's time to close up the shutters." Finnegan From srw4m at virginia.edu Mon Apr 21 09:11:51 2003 From: srw4m at virginia.edu (Susan R. Williamson) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:11:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] regarding post-traumatic stress disorder In-Reply-To: <3EA3B26A.27029.481180@localhost> References: <17c.19c1ae2f.2bd419cb@cs.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030421091129.03090580@s.mail.virginia.edu> Have you heard him sing this? At 08:57 AM 4/21/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Christmas in the Trenches >John McCutcheon Susan Rutledge Williamson (srw4m at virginia.edu) Office of State Governmental Relations University of Virginia, P.O. Box 400300 The Rotunda, N.E. Wing Phone: 434-924-3377 Fax: 434-924-1018 I dream'd in a dream I saw a city invincible to the attacks of the whole of the rest of the earth I dream'd that was the new city of Friends, Nothing was greater there than the quality of robust love, it led the rest It was seen every hour in the actions of the men of that city, And in all their looks and words. ................................... ......................................................Walt Whitman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 21 09:22:25 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:22:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Taxonomy, Astrology, Giggling Toxicity In-Reply-To: References: <200304201530.h3KFU2ST020279@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3EA3B851.26666.5F1EB4@localhost> Elemenope: > Mr. Bales is not engaging the premises of Astrology,... < No, I'm not engaging the premises of astrology here because I'm using astrology as an example of something that claims to be a science that has been demonstrated not to be one by others who HAVE engaged the premises of astrology. Elemenope: > As to "Phrenology," well, this is an entirely different thing. > Recent investigation into where within the brain our various skills, > talents, memories, etc. are "located" would seem to reflect, at > least, a resemblance to what the Phrenologists were intending.<< Unless you're positing that the position of such things in the brain causes the bumps, or that the bumps cause the things in the brain, phrenology is still not science. There is no demonstrated relation between where bumps are on the head and the character of the person. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 21 09:23:09 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:23:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] regarding post-traumatic stress disorder In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030421091129.03090580@s.mail.virginia.edu> References: <3EA3B26A.27029.481180@localhost> Message-ID: <3EA3B87D.13996.5FCB93@localhost> On 21 Apr 2003 at 9:11, Susan R. Williamson wrote: > Have you heard him sing this? > > At 08:57 AM 4/21/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >Christmas in the Trenches > >John McCutcheon Yep. I cry every time. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From srw4m at virginia.edu Mon Apr 21 09:40:55 2003 From: srw4m at virginia.edu (Susan R. Williamson) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 09:40:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] regarding post-traumatic stress disorder In-Reply-To: <3EA3B87D.13996.5FCB93@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030421091129.03090580@s.mail.virginia.edu> <3EA3B26A.27029.481180@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030421093640.03019c40@s.mail.virginia.edu> Me too. He lives here and usually performs it somewhere around the holiday times ... or even when our town, declared a City for Peace, has a gathering conducive to the subject. And some of his new work: Duct Tape (work version 2/14/03) words & music by John McCutcheon The color of the day is orange The terror risk is high They never tell us why Just be prepared We?re never told just how or when Or who might be our foe Everyone I know Is really scared But they finally have a tip for you and me The solution to surviving World War III Chorus All you need is duct tape And everything is gonna be alright Get Saran Wrap from the drawer And seal your windows tight Don?t you worry ?bout Anthrax, dirty bombs Smallpox, radon When all is said and done The war on terrorism?s gonna be won With duct tape My 401k?s in the tank My kids? school?s falling down And all these clowns can talk about Is war There?re one or two things here to do Like jobs for you and me Homeland security Means so much more But when the questions get a little tough They have an answer just obtuse enough Chorus All you need is duct tape To hold your tattered life in tact Everyone just duct and cover It?ll save you that?s a fact! Don?t you worry ?bout Education, health care Retirement, dirty air Everything?s OK Trust us, they all say And get duct tape Bridge I?ve used it on my car And I?ve fixed my garden hose It?s removed a wart or two Gotten lint right off my clothes It?s worked on almost everything I?ve tried to use it for So I guess it stands to reason Will work just fine for war Every time I turn on My radio, TV Everything I hear and see Just makes me wonder These guys who?ll never face a risk Are quick to draw the sword In every deed and word They reel and blunder So when you?re tired of their pontification There?s one sure fire fix for our nation Chorus All you need is duct tape And plaster it ?cross their lips All these armchair warriors Shooting from their hips When you?ve had enough Fox News, Falwell Limbaugh, George Will Spreading lies and fears Just cover up your ears With duct tape When you?ve had enough W, Ashcroft Rumsfeld spouting off Till it makes you sick Tell ?em where they can stick Their duct tape At 09:23 AM 4/21/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > >Christmas in the Trenches > > >John McCutcheon Susan R. Williamson (srw4m at virginia.edu) Office of State Governmental Relations University of Virginia, P.O. Box 400300 The Rotunda, N.E. Wing Phone: 434-924-3377 Fax: 434-924-1018 http://www.virginia.edu/governmentalrelations/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 21 10:52:14 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:52:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] regarding post-traumatic stress disorder In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030421093640.03019c40@s.mail.virginia.edu> References: <3EA3B87D.13996.5FCB93@localhost> Message-ID: <3EA3CD5E.25432.119BE1@localhost> On 21 Apr 2003 at 9:40, Susan R. Williamson wrote: > Me too. He lives here and usually performs it somewhere around the holiday > times ... or even when our town, declared a City for Peace, has a gathering > conducive to the subject. > And some of his new work: > > Duct Tape > (work version 2/14/03) > words & music by John McCutcheon > > The color of the day is orange > The terror risk is high > They never tell us why...<< ODE TO DUCT TAPE Marcus Bales These garlands of pine Will nicely combine With a rope loop to make me look slinky; I've primped and I've plucked But will not use duct Tape tonight dear, it's just too damned kinky. I'll sing and I'll dance To that music from France That you like, though my accent's appalling, And caper and play That particular way You enjoy -- but no duct tape, my darling. My heart starts to pound At the sound you unwound With that vibrating rip subsequently; My knees have grown weak And I find I can't speak While you're binding my wrists not ungently. Oh, who would have thought That no lovers' knot Was needed since duct tape's invention? This cannot be what Its purpose is, but -- To hell with the maker's intention! Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 21 11:14:02 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:14:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3EA3B26B.26158.4812D8@localhost> Message-ID: <00be01c30818$a52e0600$b8d7fea9@j1c1k6> > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > . I say "all livenorm poetry adheres to a norm significantly more than > > > > it does not."<< > > Marcus Bales: > > > Can you imagine a > > > scientist saying that the way you identify mammals is that they adhere to > > > mammalian characteristics "significantly more than" fish do? No, Bob - mammals > > > adhere to mammalian characteristics ALL THE TIME because (guess what, > > > Bob?) they are mammals! > > Bob Grumman: > > Quote one biologist who thinks that all species are as easy to put into a > > genus as mammals, a pretty special case, are.<< > > Here you are again, with the non-scientific demands, Bob. It doesn't > seem to occur to you that there are no authorities in science; snip of blahblah blah You used "scientist" as an authoritative figure above. Neither > Christianity nor Islam, for example, though each has an explanation > of how things work, is science because their explanations cannot be > tested in the real world. My taxonomy is not a set of explanations but a set of descriptions. > > Whether easier or more difficult is simply not the issue. The issue > is that you have no theory of how poetry works, or even what it is, > that is testable in the real world. Actually, I do. But it has little to do with my taxonomy. I'm doubtful that anyone can say > what poetry is in the real world because the moment someone has the > temerity to say "This is poetry, but that is not" someone like Hal > Johnson uses "that" in a poem and claims it IS TOO poetry, thus > confounding the purported taxonomy. Right. And I say my taxonomy is a taxonomy, thus confounding your claim that it is not. Or I say my cat is a dog and overthrow biology. There can > simply be no scientific taxonomy of a volitional endeavor, Bob, > because some of those with volition will always be trying to find > ways to confute or refute the rules. So show me how one of my definitions can be confuted or refuted. I say, for instance, that poems have to have words. Sure, someone might say, and some do, that poems can exist with no words--but not by my definition. > You're in the position of a lexicographer, Bob -- you want to be > prescriptive about something it is only possible to be descriptive Where is my taxonomy prescriptive? > about, and you're flailing away shouting that people have to conform > to your system of categorization because you claim it's scientific. Give me ONE example of my shouting or in any way suggesting that people have to conform to my system? It's there for them to use or not use, as they like. > Exactly -- but within the limits of the accuracy of our instruments > the categories are air-tight. Only in the simplest cases. Or am I deluded in thinking I'm always reading about organisms biologists are arguing about taxonomically? > But you, Bob -- you have neither theory nor experiment to offer. All > you offer is neologistic terms with systematic definitions > for existing categories -- categories > that do not themselves claim to be scientific. > Marcus Bales: > > > What you clearly want is to claim that your system of naming is different in > > > kind, not in degree. > > Bob Grumman: > > Wrong.< > > Wrong? Well, then you must claim that the existing ways to talk about > poetry are ALSO scientific, which eviscerates your claim that your > system is different and better. My system is a method of classifying poetry. Other systems, very loose ones, have existed in the past. My system is like theirs except with more rigorous definitions and wider coverage. > Bob Grumman: > > Completely wrong. And I can almost prove you are wrong about me. My > > taxonomy is for me a very minor venture, an attempt to clarify things so as > > to permit better communication about poetry. The near-proof that this is so > > is that I am working on a theory of psychology that I DO think is a major > > breakthrough--though no sea-change nor different in kind from previous such > > theories. I consider my willingness to admit this a near-proof that I don't > > consider my taxonomy major because it shows that I'm capable of admitting to > > megalomania. That being the case, why would I not admit to it as the > > creator of this taxonomy that so threatens you if it were the case there, too?<< > It's not YOU that I'm saying is the problem, Bob -- >I'm saying your > work is wrong, not that you are a megalomaniac, nor that there is > anything else wrong with you. It's ME you say wants "to claim that science is on (my) side, and that (my) so-called "taxonomy" represents a sea-change in how people will think about poetry. If I did think that, I would be a megalomaniac. >I'm saying your > work is wrong, not that you are a megalomaniac, nor that there is > anything else wrong with you. I think it's pretty ignorant of the > rules of inference to continually so misinterpret a criticism of your > work that you take it as a criticism of your self, but ignorance is a > curable condition, nothing that is "wrong with you". Ignorance that has last 30 years? > Bob Grumman: > > It's not supposed to have these things. It CLASSIFIES.<< > > It has to classify according to an underlying scientific theory that > is borne out by experiment in the real world, Bob, or it is merely a > subjective classification, not an objective, not a scientific one. The OED doesn't require that of a taxonomy so I don't see why I should. > That you've classified stuff I don't deny. I only deny that you've > done any science. I haven't so far as the taxonomy is concerned. What I've done is classified things in a scientific manner. > You've done subjective classification, not > objective classification. Give me one example of a subjective classification from my taxonomy. And say why it is subjective. > Bob Grumman: > > ... As for whether my taxonomy is scientific > > or not is a subjective matter. It IS objective, though, because based on > > material aspects of verbal texts.<< > > But it's not, Bob -- because you don't limit yourself to "verbal > texts", Yes, I do. and because "material aspects" is different from "material" > in a notion such as "philosophical materialism". > > Here's how you do science, Bob: > > 1. Observe some aspect of the universe. > 2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is > consistent with what you have observed. > 3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions. > 4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and > modify the hypothesis in the light of your results. > 5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between > theory and experiment and/or observation. This is not an ad hominem insult? This is not a blockheaded response to someone who has told you over and over that he is engaged in descriptive classification not in explanatory theorizing? (Not that I'm calling you a blockhead, Marcus; I'm just saying your response is blockheaded.) > Well, what we do is we state the premises, then devise as honest a > sequence of experiments as we can to test those premises, and if the > experiments don't show what the premises posit then it's WRONG, Bob. Which you haven't done with astrology. Ah, all the snips, such as the one where Marcus proves how little he knows about this taxonomy of mine he claims to have studied diligently by calling "songmode poetry" a synonym for "lyric." And his refusal to answer one simple question about my taxonomy which he would HAVE to know the answer to if he'd studied it AT ALL. ANd he calls me disingenuous. --Bob G. From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Apr 21 12:23:56 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:23:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hayden Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F7D@mail.ripon.edu> It's my pleasure to be teaching Robert Hayden later today. Here's an old favorite. The Whipping The old woman across the way is whipping the boy again and shouting to the neighborhood her goodness and his wrongs. Wildly he crashes through elephant ears, pleads in dusty zinnias, while she in spite of crippling fat pursues and corners him. She strikes and strikes the shrilly circling boy till the stick breaks in her hand. His tears are rainy weather to woundlike memories: My head gripped in bony vise of knees, the writhing struggle to wrench free, the blows, the fear worse than blows that hateful Words could bring, the face that I no longer knew or loved . . . Well, it is over now, it is over, and the boy sobs in his room, And the woman leans muttering against a tree, exhausted, purged-- avenged in part for lifelong hidings she has had to bear. -- Robert Hayden *Collected Poems*, 1971. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 21 12:30:20 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:30:20 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hayden References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F7D@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <02bf01c30823$51100db0$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Monday, April 21, 2003 8:23 AM, Graham, David spake thusly: > It's my pleasure to be teaching Robert Hayden later today. Does he have a lot to learn? Hayden was one of the only "real" poets (i.e. not Rod McKuen, et al) that I was exposed to growing up ...because he happened to be Baha'i like the rest of my family. I never really understood him then. This remainds me that I really should try again. c -- Chris Lott From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Apr 21 12:45:52 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:45:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Robert Hayden Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F7E@mail.ripon.edu> > > It's my pleasure to be teaching Robert Hayden later today. > > Does he have a lot to learn? > No, I think he pretty much knows it all by now. Your joke is one I often use when illustrating metonymy, actually: "I taught Shakespeare yesterday" = "I taught the works written by Shakespeare." My other favorite is "I drank a can of soda." Hayden grows and grows as an important poet, the more I study him. His work strikes me as every bit as good as, say, Elizabeth Bishop's; and it's too bad he's so much less well known, especially once you get past "Those Winter Sundays" and two or three of his history poems. O Daedalus, Fly Away Home ---Robert Hayden (For Maia and Julie) Drifting night in the Georgia pines, coonskin drum and jubilee banjo. Pretty Malinda, dance with me. Night is juba, night is congo. Pretty Malinda, dance with me. Night is an African juju man weaving a wish and a weariness together to make two wings. O fly away home fly away Do you remember Africa? O cleave the air fly away home My gran, he flew back to Africa, just spread his arms and flew away home. Drifting night in the windy pines; night is laughing, night is a longing. Pretty Malinda, come to me. Night is a mourning juju man weaving a wish and a weariness together to make two wings. O fly away home fly away ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: Chris Lott > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:30 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Robert Hayden > > On Monday, April 21, 2003 8:23 AM, Graham, David spake > thusly: > > > Hayden was one of the only "real" poets (i.e. not Rod McKuen, et al) that > I > was exposed to growing up ...because he happened to be Baha'i like the > rest > of my family. I never really understood him then. This remainds me that I > really should try again. > > c > -- > Chris Lott > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From sellwein at hotmail.com Mon Apr 21 12:51:10 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:51:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Wonder Message-ID: My Wonder the net of your eyes captures my voice tossed in the surf and scream of wind my wonder wide-eyed stranded on an island of dreams this moment Deborah Russell _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 21 12:32:02 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:32:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <00be01c30818$a52e0600$b8d7fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EA3E4C2.1863.37DBC3@localhost> Marcus Bales: > > Here you are again, with the non-scientific demands, Bob. It doesn't > > seem to occur to you that there are no authorities in science; Bob Grumman: > You used "scientist" as an authoritative figure above. I've used no particular scientist as an authority, Bob -- this is a bullshit objection. Marcus Bales: > > Whether easier or more difficult is simply not the issue. The issue > > is that you have no theory of how poetry works, or even what it is, > > that is testable in the real world. Bob Grumman: > Actually, I do. But it has little to do with my taxonomy.<< Well, Bob, if you have a scientific theory of what poetry is and how it works that is testable in the real world, that your taxonomy relies on for its organization, let's hear it. Maybe you've got something if that's the case. But as you've presented it so far, you've got nothing but cargo-cult scientism. Bob Grumman: > Right. And I say my taxonomy is a taxonomy, thus confounding your claim > that it is not. ... << Look, Bob, your claim is that your "taxonomy" is scientific and objective. That's the claim I dispute. That you know how to spell a scientific word is just not adequate to make a scientific claim. Marcus Bales: > There can > > simply be no scientific taxonomy of a volitional endeavor, Bob, > > because some of those with volition will always be trying to find > > ways to confute or refute the rules. Bob Grumman: > So show me how one of my definitions can be confuted or refuted. I say, for > instance, that poems have to have words. Sure, someone might say, and some > do, that poems can exist with no words--but not by my definition.<< But Bob, lots of things that are not poems also have words -- so your notion that a poem is a thing with words is entirely inadequate. Your mere definition is not enough to be prescriptive (you ask further on where your taxonomy is prescriptive -- and where you claim that there are no poems without words your taxonomy is prescriptive) -- you have to show that it is necessary and true, not just that it is your opinion, if you want to claim to be objective or scientific. Bob Grumman: > Give me ONE example of my shouting or in any way suggesting that people have > to conform to my system? It's there for them to use or not use, as they > like.<< Every time you claim it is scientific or objective you are prima facie claiming that it is true and making a demand that others adhere to the truth and abandon the error into which they've fallen using all the non-scientific systems of describing poetry. Are you really not aware that a claim of objectivity and scientific truth is a demand to conform? Marcus Bales: > > But you, Bob -- you have neither theory nor experiment to offer. All > > you offer is neologistic terms Bob Grumman: > with systematic definitions<< But systematic is not necessarily scientific or objective, Bob. Systematic is necessary but not sufficient to be scientific or objective. Is this really the problem -- that you think anything systematic is ipso facto scientific or objective? > > Marcus Bales: > > > > What you clearly want is to claim that your system of naming is different in > > > > kind, not in degree. > > Bob Grumman: > > > Wrong.< Marcus Bales > > Wrong? Well, then you must claim that the existing ways to talk about > > poetry are ALSO scientific, which eviscerates your claim that your > > system is different and better. Bob Grumman: > My system is a method of classifying poetry. Other systems, very loose > ones, have existed in the past. My system is like theirs except with more > rigorous definitions and wider coverage.<< But that's no claim to objectivity OR to science! Are you abandoning, at last, your claim to objectivity and science, Bob? Because if you abandon your claim to objectivity and science, Bob, I have no objection to your system of classification. Marcus Bales: > > It's not YOU that I'm saying is the problem, Bob -- >I'm saying your > > work is wrong, not that you are a megalomaniac, nor that there is > > anything else wrong with you. Bob Grumman: > It's ME you say wants "to claim that science is on (my) side, and that (my) > so-called "taxonomy" represents a sea-change in how people will think > about poetry. If I did think that, I would be a megalomaniac.<< The definition of "megalamaniac" is not "anyone who thinks that as a result of scientific evidence he thinks he's right" -- which is what you're claiming when you claim your "taxonomy" is "objective" and "scientific". YOU are the one claiming your system is scientific and objective, not me! That doesn't make you a megalomaniac (I can't believe that in the middle of this discussion I have to reassure you that you're ok, Bob -- you're ok! You're just wrong about your claim that your taxonomy is scientific or objective) -- it means that your claim will be investigated with a rigor that isn't applicable to claims of subjective judgment. Marcus Bales: > >I'm saying your > > work is wrong, not that you are a megalomaniac, nor that there is > > anything else wrong with you. I think it's pretty ignorant of the > > rules of inference to continually so misinterpret a criticism of your > > work that you take it as a criticism of your self, but ignorance is a > > curable condition, nothing that is "wrong with you". Bob Grumman: > Ignorance that has last 30 years?< Be glad it didn't last 31, and revise your claims to "objectivity" and "scientific", OR show that your "taxonomy" is really objective and scientific by doing science instead of cargo-cult pseudo-science. Bob Grumman: > The OED doesn't require that of a taxonomy so I don't see why I should.<< Because you're making a scientific claim, not a word-use claim. The OED is not an authority on what is scientific and what is not -- it's not even an authority on word-use, come to that: it's a record of how words have been used. Marcus Bales: > > That you've classified stuff I don't deny. I only deny that you've > > done any science. Bob Grumman: > I haven't so far as the taxonomy is concerned. What I've done is classified > things in a scientific manner.<< Well goodness gracious, Bob, why didn't you admit this up front? You could have saved us days, weeks, of arguing about it. I'm prepared to agree that your system has the outer trappings, the accoutrements, of science, that it uses scientific-sounding words, that it uses the FORM of science -- I'm just not willing to agree that it IS scientific or objective because it's not. And now that you've said "I haven't [done science] insofar as my taxonomy is concerned" it seems to me that this is a dead issue. You've agreed I'm right, that your taxonomy is not scientific because you haven't done any science insofar as your taxonomy is concerned. QED Thank you, and goodnight. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From dbarone at sjc.edu Mon Apr 21 13:18:59 2003 From: dbarone at sjc.edu (Barone, Dennis) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:18:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Partisan Review Message-ID: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249001BA1B58@sjcmail.sjc.edu> A Response of Sorts to the Demise of Partisan Review From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Apr 21 13:39:14 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:39:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Robert Hayden Message-ID: <94.36de7c00.2bd586c2@cs.com> In a message dated 4/21/2003 11:47:22 AM Central Daylight Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > > Hayden grows and grows as an important poet, the more I study him. His > work > strikes me as every bit as good as, say, Elizabeth Bishop's; and it's too > bad he's so much less well known, especially once you get past "Those > Winter > Sundays" and two or three of his history poems. Have you ever read Hayden's essay "How It Strikes a Contemporary," David? An interesting supplement to the poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 21 13:46:07 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:46:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hayden In-Reply-To: <02bf01c30823$51100db0$6401a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <3EA3F61F.15668.7BB01D@localhost> On 21 Apr 2003 at 8:30, Chris Lott wrote: > Hayden was one of the only "real" poets (i.e. not Rod McKuen, et al)<< Ask Bob Grumman -- surely any objective and scientific taxonomy will distinguish between "real" poetry and "fake" poetry, eh? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Apr 21 14:02:57 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hayden Message-ID: <20030421180257.6798EE4C0@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Apr 21 14:44:06 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:44:06 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?Windows-1252?Q?Re:_=5BNew-Poetry=5D_Poems_by_others:_Jacques_Pr=E9vert_?= =?Windows-1252?Q?and_Georges_Perec?= References: Message-ID: <007c01c30835$fd34f120$b5607550@anny> Thank you Halvard, festive poems finally with care. anny From: "Halvard Johnson" > > Pater Noster > > Our Father who art in heaven > Stay there > And we'll stay here on earth > Which is sometimes so pretty > With its mysteries of New York > And its mysteries of Paris > At least as good as that of the Trinity > With its little canal at Ourcq > Its great wall of China > Its river at Morlaix > Its candy canes > With its Pacific Ocean > And its two basins in the Tuileries > With its good children and bad people > With all the wonders of the world > Which are here > Simply on the earth > Offered to everyone > Strewn about > Wondering at the wonder of themselves > And daring not avow it > As a naked pretty girl dares not show herself > With the world's outrageous misfortunes > Which are legion > With legionaries > With torturers > With the masters of this world > The masters with their priests their traitors and their troops > With the seasons > With the years > With the pretty girls and with the old bastards > With the straw of misery rotting in the steel > of cannons. > > --Jacques Pr?vert, tr. Lawrence Ferlinghetti > > fr. *Paroles* 1946 > and City Lights Books, 1958 > > also in *The Random House Book of Twentieth-Century French Poetry* > ed., Paul Auster [New York: Random House,1982] > > > > Lines read at Alix-Cl?o Blanchette's and Jacques Roubaud's Bridal > > Alix-Cl?o is joined to Jacques > and Jacques is joined to Alix-Cl?o > > This is a delicious coincidence > and so at this hour > both are allied and united > as are bird and branch > Aucassin and Nicolette > table and chair > science and doubt > desert and oasis > *tilia* and *quercus* > quill and tale > sunrise and sunset > absence and trace > bee and linden > > It's a nice hour in June > the sun shines on Ile de la Cit? > on their transistor radios dealers in used literature listen to Alessandro Scarlatti's *Sonate a quattro* > harassed tourists ascend the stairs to Sacr?-Coeur > on Rue de la Huchette blue-jeaned Dutch lasses sound their banjos and binious > > The entire earth stretches out around us > its unsounded oceans > its lochs, its tablelands, its channels > its hills and its tundras > its sand dune, its hidden treasures, its islands, its roadsteads, > its crude oil and its turbines > its bauxites and rare soils > its basilicas, its haunted castles, its ruined bastions > its adult scouts in hot-red raincoats that chant carols at the hours close to the sacred birth > its crescent-lensed notaries that read the late editions under old burners > its retired colonels in council at the *tabac* on Rue Saint-Louis-en-l'Ile > its carousers that exit antiquated discos and then scatter > its slant-lidded Siberians that ride across the Tuba in birch canoes > its beret-clad excursionists that assault the Ballon d'Alsace > its austere Jansenists that recite Exodus and Isaiah > its circus ballerinas balanced on their obedient steeds > its D.Litt.'s that discuss Judeo-Christian structures in H?lderlin's discourse > its obese Irish chars that collect salted dills and beer (in cans) in a Bronx delicatessen > > Here blue surrounds the sun, or soon shall > Let's abandon the era's raucousness > tornadoes and clouds > Let's listen to the linnet's tune > to the cat stretched out in the den next to Bescherelle's *Dictionnaire* > quiet quotidian sounds > the heart's beat > > These occasional lines > that do not concern > either carious teeth > or roots that clutch > or the author etherised on a table > or the *Coccinella cardinalis* > or the 1848 Constitution > are here inscribed to usher in this betrothal > > Let decades rich in elation and delectation > bless Alix-Cl?o and Jacques > those here saluted > and let there arise in the east > a sable jet salute: childhood > and in the south > a turquoise blue salute: adulthood > and next > non-existence's ochre abalone salute > that cannot be calculated or uttered > and in the north > an alabaster seashell salute: the Resurrection > > and let the Southern Cross salute Alix-Cl?o and Jacques > and the star that heralds the sunset > and all the constellations > and all the nebulae > > and that as sunrise starts > at the hour that bleaches the surround > both stride quite around the earth's bounds and the stars. > > George Perec, tr. Harry Matthews > > fr. *?pithalames*, 1982 > in *Oulipo Compendium*, eds. Harry Matthews and Alastair Brotchie > [London: Atlas Press, 1998] > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Apr 21 14:55:01 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:55:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Hayden Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479F80@mail.ripon.edu> I can't resist. Here's one more Hayden poem. This is one of his strangest, published near the end of his life. It was Michael Harper who originally turned me on to the work of Hayden--I've heard him read a number of times, dating back to the 1970s, and every time he's featured some Hayden poems in his readings. The last time I heard him, a decade or more ago, he read "American Journal" entire. American Journal --Robert Hayden here among them the americans this baffling multi people extremes and variegations their noise restlessness their almost frightening energy how best describe these aliens in my reports to The Counselors disguise myself in order to study them unobserved adapting their varied pigmentations white black red brown yellow the imprecise and strangering distinctions by which they live by which they justify their cruelties to one another charming savages enlightened primitives brash ncw comers lately sprung up in our galaxy how describe them do they indeed know what or who they are do not seem to yet no other beings in the universe make more extravagant claims for their importance and identity like us they have created a veritable populace of machines that serve and soothe and pamper and entertain we have seen their flags and foot prints on the moon also the intricate rubbish left behind a wastefully ingenious people many it appears worship the Unknowable Essence the same for them as for us but are more faithful to their machine made gods technologists their shamans oceans deserts mountains grain fields canyons forests variousness of landscapes weathers sun light moon light as at home much here is beautiful dream like vistas reminding me of home item have seen the rock place known as garden of the gods and sacred to the first indigenes red monoliths of home despite the tensions i breathe in i am attracted to the vigorous americans disturbing sensuous appeal of so many never to be admitted something they call the american dream sure we still believe in it i guess an earth man in the tavern said irregardless of the some times night mare facts we always try to double talk our way around and its okay the dreams okay and means whets good could be a damn sight better means every body in the good old u s a should have the chance to get ahead or at least should have three squares a day as for myself i do okay not crying hunger with a loaf of bread tucked under my arm you understand i fear one does not clearly follow i replied notice you got a funny accent pal like where you from he asked far from here i mumbled he stared hard i left must be more careful item learn to use okay their pass word okay crowds gathering in the streets today for some reason obscure to me noise and violent motion repulsive physical contact sentinels pigs i heard them called with flailing clubs rage and bleeding and frenzy and screaming machines wailing unbearable decibels i fled lest vibrations of the brutal scene do further harm to my metabolism already over taxed The Counselors would never permit such barbarous confusion they know what is best for our sereni ty we are an ancient race and have outgrown illusions cherished here item their vaunted liberty no body pushes me around i have heard them say land of the free they sing what do they fear mistrust betray more than the freedom they boast of in their ignorant pride have seen the squalid ghettoes in their violent cities paradox on paradox how have the americans managed to survive parades fireworks displays video spectacles much grandiloquence much buying and selling they are celebrating their history earth men in antique uniforms play at the carnage whereby the americans achieved identity we too recall that struggle as enterprise of suffering and faith uniquely theirs blonde miss teen age america waving from a red white and blue flower float as the goddess of liberty a divided people seeking reassurance from a past few under stand and many scorn why should we sanction old hypocrisies thus dissenters The Counse lors would silence them a decadent people The Counselors believe i do not find them decadent a refutation not permitted me but for all their knowledge power and inventiveness not yet more than raw crude neophytes like earthlings everywhere though i have easily passed for an american in bankers grey afro and dashiki long hair and jeans hard hat yarmulke mini skirt describe in some detail for the amusement of The Counselors and though my skill in mimicry is impeccable as indeed The Counselors are aware some thing eludes me some constant amid the variables defies analysis and imitation will i be judged incompetent america as much a problem in metaphysics as it is a nation earthly entity an iota in our galaxy an organism that changes even as i examine it fact and fantasy never twice the same so many variables exert greater caution twice have aroused suspicion returned to the ship until rumors of humanoids from outer space so their scoff ing media voices termed us had been laughed away my crew and i laughed too of course confess i am curiously drawn unmentionable to the americans doubt i could exist among them for long however psychic demands far too severe much violence much that repels i am attracted none the less their variousness their ingenuity their elan vital and that some thing essence quiddity i cannot penetrate or name ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From elemenope at icubed.com Mon Apr 21 03:00:40 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:00:40 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mr. Bales Points Finger at The Cycling Aeons: "Astrology is BUNK!" Message-ID: [It's "Astrologer," Mr. Bales, not "Astrologist." At least, respect the nomenclature if you don't respect the school of thought.] At 12:24 PM +0800 4/21/03, ELEMENOPE Productions wrote: >Bring forward your fellow attackers and debunkers of Astrology, Mr. >Bales. You started this, so follow through and finish the work of >demonstrating fully and doubtlessly that Astrology is BUNK. Mr. Bales: > >>No, I'm not engaging the premises of astrology here because I'm using >>astrology as an example of something that claims to be a science that >>has been demonstrated not to be one by others who HAVE engaged the >premises of astrology. >. > >Here's how you do science, Bob: > >1. Observe some aspect of the universe. >2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is >consistent with what you have observed. >3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions. >4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and >modify the hypothesis in the light of your results. >5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between >theory and experiment and/or observation. > >You simply haven't done that, Bob. You've made no hypotheses about >poetry, and you've made no predictions, and you have made not tests >of your predictions. You simply haven't been doing science. > > > > That's right, I challenge the premises of astrology, not whether >> > an astrologist can calculate a secant. And an error in the >> > calculation of a secant doesn't have any impact on a challenge to >> > the premise of the system. This last sentence is true, except that Mr. Bales hasn't explained how secants are employed in astrology, and they are, but are not called, "secants." He wants, apparently, to mystify the reader by using a term from geometry in the astrology context. > >Bob Grumman: >> And what is the premise of astrology?< > >That the positions and movements of objects seen in the sky predict >the characters of people and the future of individuals and groups. There are many kinds of astrology. Ptolemy begins his study of astrology with the climate. Sumerians used astrology to evaluate agricultural and economic cycles. The model of Orion which the Giza pyramid city stages is more than a predictive tool, its is a technology with a variety of purposes. Mr. Bales' quick exposition is not the premise of astrology. Humanity has employed astrology for these ends, but these purposes not the ground upon which astrology starts. Astrology is more profound as intellectual phenomenon than Mr. Bales supposes. And not for the purposes of the kind of empirical knowledge Mr. Bales prefers. > >Bob Grumman: >> You still need to find an error in it, in this case in it premises. And you >> can't just state the premises and say they're wrong. > >Well, what we do is we state the premises, then devise as honest a >sequence of experiments as we can to test those premises, and if the >experiments don't show what the premises posit then it's WRONG, Bob. >That's what science is all about, you see: trying to separate >nonsense from sense -- and that sometimes we still get nonsense >because our instruments are not properly calibrated is not an >indictment of the scientific method -- it's only an indictment of the >experimental methodology. Astrology has its own reasons for explaining itself. Mr. Bales is not acquainted with them. Mr. Bales could just as readily take his scientific method over to the School of Theology and disprove its premises also. If you want to be a "Scientist" like Mr. Bales, that's fine, but his story is not the only one in town. But, let's embark upon Mr. Bales contention on its own terms. (Please, Mr. Bales, provide your birth data (place, date, time) and we'll see if an astrological reading will disclose any real time quantifiable data that would confute statistical probability.) Since Mr. Bales doesn't believe in astrology he should have no problem in providing his birth data since anything that any astrologer would discover would be at best accidentally useful let alone true. [As I recall, when Mr. Bales attended my reading in March, 2003, with Candice Ward here in Pennsylvania, he knew his astrological sign and this is where he started to get his dander up about this topic.] -- From cc at opus0.com Mon Apr 21 15:44:10 2003 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:44:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The American Achilles In-Reply-To: <200304211311.h3LDBHST031098@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Few doubt that the American Achilles is the greatest warrior in the world today. Only the soon-to-be-vanquished dare to fight him, and few speak up to disagree. He's shown in recent battles he is courageous, strong and fierce; and though he?s lethal to the enemy, he tries to protect most innocents. When he wins his battles, he wins some hearts and minds of people he's set free. Some say his weakness is his pride. Others say he's not impervious, and recall his baptism at the river?s side. He was so large an infant that his mother needed three strong nurses to help hold him from the currents' cold unrest: she held his heel, while the first nurse held his head; the second held his buttock, and the third one held his chest. And, though three times they doused him for immortality, none of them removed her hand or wrist. Where the water never washed him some cite Achilles? flaws: his heel?s exposed to free speech, a right guaranteed by damned democracy; his head?s exposed to years of public school and television; his butt's exposed because his wallet is so thin?he's given all his bills global companies; and his heart's exposed by one, the son of man, who said: ?Love thy enemies?. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 21 16:50:05 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:50:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3EA3E4C2.1863.37DBC3@localhost> Message-ID: <002501c30847$9738fb20$93ddfea9@j1c1k6> > Marcus Bales: > > > Here you are again, with the non-scientific demands, Bob. It doesn't > > > seem to occur to you that there are no authorities in science; > > Bob Grumman: > > You used "scientist" as an authoritative figure above. > > I've used no particular scientist as an authority, Bob -- this is a > bullshit objection. Of course it is--chosen to parallel your bullshit argument. > Marcus Bales: > > > Whether easier or more difficult is simply not the issue. The issue > > > is that you have no theory of how poetry works, or even what it is, > > > that is testable in the real world. > > Bob Grumman: > > Actually, I do. But it has little to do with my taxonomy.<< > > Well, Bob, if you have a scientific theory of what poetry is and how > it works that is testable in the real world, that your taxonomy > relies on for its organization, let's hear it. My taxonomy does not rely on it. My taxonomy is on the external techniques used in the making of poetry, not on its effect on the brain. Eventually, when the insides of the brain are better known, it will probably be possible to show how what various techniques do in poems affect the brain, but that would be a plus, for the validity of my taxonomy does not depend on it. > Look, Bob, your claim is that your "taxonomy" is scientific and > objective. That's the claim I dispute. That you know how to spell a > scientific word is just not adequate to make a scientific claim. That you know how to spell a scientific word, and--in two tries, can spell one of my words, is just not adequate for you to make the above claim. Anyway, my main argument is that my taxonomy is of value. I consider it objective and scientific but that's irrelevant. What counts is whether it works or not. You have not shown it does not. You have merely shown that I don't use certain words the way you do. > > So show me how one of my definitions can be confuted or refuted. I say, for > instance, that poems have to have words. Sure, someone might say, and some > do, that poems can exist with no words--but not by my definition.<< > But Bob, lots of things that are not poems also have words -- so your > notion that a poem is a thing with words is entirely inadequate. Nuts. I really thought I'd gotten somewhere. But I know my "notion" is not ENTIRELY inadequate. Emily doesn't even state that a poem has to have words. Note how imbecilicly you argue. I give an example of how one of my definitions can say something that, if accepted, objectively distinguishes one group of things from another and you assume I've given a complete definition and attack it for that reason. >Your > mere definition is not enough to be prescriptive (you ask further on > where your taxonomy is prescriptive -- and where you claim that there > are no poems without words your taxonomy is prescriptive) Right, all definitions are prescriptive. > -- you have > to show that it is necessary and true, not just that it is your > opinion, if you want to claim to be objective or scientific. Wrong. I have to show that it works as a way to distinguish an A from a B, and that it makes sense to distinguish the two. Etc. > Bob Grumman: > > Give me ONE example of my shouting or in any way suggesting that people have > > to conform to my system? It's there for them to use or not use, as they > > like.<< > > Every time you claim it is scientific or objective you are prima > facie claiming that it is true and making a demand that others adhere > to the truth and abandon the error into which they've fallen using > all the non-scientific systems of describing poetry. Are you really > not aware that a claim of objectivity and scientific truth is a > demand to conform? Yes. > Marcus Bales: > > > But you, Bob -- you have neither theory nor experiment to offer. All > > > you offer is neologistic terms > > Bob Grumman: > > with systematic definitions<< > > But systematic is not necessarily scientific or objective, Bob. > Systematic is necessary but not sufficient to be scientific or > objective. Is this really the problem -- that you think anything > systematic is ipso facto scientific or objective? No. > > > Marcus Bales: > > > > > What you clearly want is to claim that your system of naming is different in > > > > > kind, not in degree. > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > Wrong.< > Marcus Bales > > > Wrong? Well, then you must claim that the existing ways to talk about > > > poetry are ALSO scientific, which eviscerates your claim that your > > > system is different and better. > > Bob Grumman: > > My system is a method of classifying poetry. Other systems, very loose > > ones, have existed in the past. My system is like theirs except with more > > rigorous definitions and wider coverage.<< > > But that's no claim to objectivity OR to science! Are you > abandoning, at last, your claim to objectivity and science, Bob? No. > Because if you abandon your claim to objectivity and science, Bob, I > have no objection to your system of classification. > Marcus Bales: > > > It's not YOU that I'm saying is the problem, Bob -- >I'm saying your > > > work is wrong, not that you are a megalomaniac, nor that there is > > > anything else wrong with you. > > Bob Grumman: > > It's ME you say wants "to claim that science is on (my) side, and that (my) > > so-called "taxonomy" represents a sea-change in how people will think > > about poetry. If I did think that, I would be a megalomaniac.<< > > The definition of "megalamaniac" is not "anyone who thinks that as a > result of scientific evidence he thinks he's right" -- which is what > you're claiming when you claim your "taxonomy" is "objective" and > "scientific". Read what you said about me. Focus on the word "seachange." >YOU are the one claiming your system is scientific and objective, not me! These are very secondary claims of mine, made to try to defend it against certain of your assertions. I stand 100% behind "objective" (so far as objectivity is possible for human beings). I stand 90% behind "scientific" as I understand the term. >That doesn't make you a megalomaniac (I can't > believe that in the middle of this discussion I have to reassure you > that you're ok, Bob -- Actually, I AM a megalomaniac, Marcus. I'm just not one about this taxonomy, which will effect no seachange in the world's opinion of poetry. >you're ok! You're just wrong about your claim > that your taxonomy is scientific or objective) -- it means that your > claim will be investigated with a rigor that isn't applicable to > claims of subjective judgment. When? > > > nothing that is "wrong with you". > > Bob Grumman: > > Ignorance that has lasted 30 years?< > > Be glad it didn't last 31, And shows no sign of going away? >and revise your claims to "objectivity" > and "scientific", OR show that your "taxonomy" is really objective > and scientific by doing science instead of cargo-cult pseudo-science. > Bob Grumman: > > The OED doesn't require that of a taxonomy so I don't see why I should.<< > > Because you're making a scientific claim, not a word-use claim. The > OED is not an authority on what is scientific and what is not -- it's > not even an authority on word-use, come to that: it's a record of how > words have been used. I am using the term the way it has been used. > Marcus Bales: > > > That you've classified stuff I don't deny. I only deny that you've > > > done any science. > Bob Grumman: > > I haven't so far as the taxonomy is concerned. What I've done is classified > > things in a scientific manner.<< > > Well goodness gracious, Bob, why didn't you admit this up front? If you had looked at my taxonomy, or been even slightly flexible in considering what I've been saying, this would have been obvious. Not that I agree I haven't been "admitting this." >You > could have saved us days, weeks, of arguing about it. I'm prepared > to agree that your system has the outer trappings, the accoutrements, > of science, that it uses scientific-sounding words, that it uses the > FORM of science -- I'm just not willing to agree that it IS > scientific or objective because it's not. And now that you've said > "I haven't [done science] insofar as my taxonomy is concerned" it > seems to me that this is a dead issue. You twisted the discussion into it long ago, Marcus. Anything to avoid even looking at my taxonomy, much less trying to critique it. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 21 16:51:37 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:51:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hayden References: <3EA3F61F.15668.7BB01D@localhost> Message-ID: <003101c30847$cdfe4840$93ddfea9@j1c1k6> > Ask Bob Grumman -- surely any objective and scientific taxonomy will > distinguish between "real" poetry and "fake" poetry, eh? > > > > Marcus Bales Rod McKuen is a real poet. Read my taxonomy and find out why. --Bob G. From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 21 16:59:05 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:59:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hayden References: <3EA3F61F.15668.7BB01D@localhost> <003101c30847$cdfe4840$93ddfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <009e01c30848$d92453d0$5b15e589@devbox> On Monday, April 21, 2003 12:51 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > Rod McKuen is a real poet. Read my taxonomy and find out why. Clearly we mean different things by "real." Read Rod McKuen and find out why :) c From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 21 17:15:46 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:15:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hayden In-Reply-To: <009e01c30848$d92453d0$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <3EA42742.31246.13BA936@localhost> > On Monday, April 21, 2003 12:51 PM, Bob Grumman > spake thusly: > > > Rod McKuen is a real poet. Read my taxonomy and find out why. > > Clearly we mean different things by "real." Read Rod McKuen and find out why > :) > c LOL Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Apr 21 17:11:27 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:11:27 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mr. Bales Points Finger at The Cycling Aeons: "Astrology is BUNK!" References: Message-ID: <004c01c3084a$92efd860$b5607550@anny> Mr. Bales might mean an opposition, by secant I mean. Astronomy, astrology, alchemy, geometry and mathematics were all used together by the ancient in order to understand. In Baghdad, for example, since Muslims had to face the Mecca five times a day to pray, these studies were privileged. Nowadays you have psychological, relocation, social, and any other kinds of astrology. Sementosky-Kurilo wanted to apply it to medicine at the beginning of the XXth century and gave exact examples. Notice that intuition is fundamental. No good astrologer has ever had a weak Uranus in his/her natal chart. care, anny > This last sentence is true, except that Mr. Bales hasn't explained > how secants are employed in astrology, and they are, but are not > called, "secants." He wants, apparently, to mystify the reader by > using a term from geometry in the astrology context. > > > > >Bob Grumman: > >> And what is the premise of astrology?< > > > >That the positions and movements of objects seen in the sky predict > >the characters of people and the future of individuals and groups. > > There are many kinds of astrology. Ptolemy begins his study of > astrology with the climate. Sumerians used astrology to evaluate > agricultural and economic cycles. The model of Orion which the Giza > pyramid city stages is more than a predictive tool, its is a > technology with a variety of purposes. > > Mr. Bales' quick exposition is not the premise of astrology. Humanity > has employed astrology for these ends, but these purposes not the > ground upon which astrology starts. Astrology is more profound as > intellectual phenomenon than Mr. Bales supposes. And not for the > purposes of the kind of empirical knowledge Mr. Bales prefers. > > > > >Bob Grumman: > >> You still need to find an error in it, in this case in it premises. And you > >> can't just state the premises and say they're wrong. > > > >Well, what we do is we state the premises, then devise as honest a > >sequence of experiments as we can to test those premises, and if the > >experiments don't show what the premises posit then it's WRONG, Bob. > >That's what science is all about, you see: trying to separate > >nonsense from sense -- and that sometimes we still get nonsense > >because our instruments are not properly calibrated is not an > >indictment of the scientific method -- it's only an indictment of the > >experimental methodology. > > > Astrology has its own reasons for explaining itself. Mr. Bales is > not acquainted with them. Mr. Bales could just as readily take his > scientific method over to the School of Theology and disprove its > premises also. If you want to be a "Scientist" like Mr. Bales, > that's fine, but his story is not the only one in town. > > But, let's embark upon Mr. Bales contention on its own terms. > (Please, Mr. Bales, provide your birth data (place, date, time) and > we'll see if an astrological reading will disclose any real time > quantifiable data that would confute statistical probability.) Since > Mr. Bales doesn't believe in astrology he should have no problem in > providing his birth data since anything that any astrologer would > discover would be at best accidentally useful let alone true. > > [As I recall, when Mr. Bales attended my reading in March, 2003, with > Candice Ward here in Pennsylvania, he knew his astrological sign and > this is where he started to get his dander up about this topic.] > > > > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 21 17:38:59 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 17:38:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hayden References: <3EA3F61F.15668.7BB01D@localhost> <003101c30847$cdfe4840$93ddfea9@j1c1k6> <009e01c30848$d92453d0$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <006201c3084e$6c4a8440$93ddfea9@j1c1k6> > > Rod McKuen is a real poet. Read my taxonomy and find out why. > > Clearly we mean different things by "real." Read Rod McKuen and find out why > :) > > c Sure. I mean by "poet" one who composes poetry. You mean by "poet," one who composes poetry that you respect. I'm not a fan of McKuen's, but he did write a few poems that are as good as anything I've seen by Hayden, which is not much. (Don't ask me to name them. All I remember is that one was about a cat, another had a phrasing I liked.) --Bob G. From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 21 17:59:41 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:59:41 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mr. Bales Points Finger at The Cycling Aeons: "Astrology is BUNK!" References: <004c01c3084a$92efd860$b5607550@anny> Message-ID: <012301c30851$5089fee0$5b15e589@devbox> > No good astrologer > has ever had a weak Uranus in his/her natal chart. That's a joke waiting to happen, but I've posted my share of attempted witticisms today. Damn. c From anny.ballardini at tin.it Mon Apr 21 18:10:44 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:10:44 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mr. Bales Points Finger at The Cycling Aeons: "Astrology is BUNK!" References: <004c01c3084a$92efd860$b5607550@anny> <012301c30851$5089fee0$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <009c01c30853$4f924680$b5607550@anny> well c give it a try, you can have my share, if the others agree. a From: "Chris Lott" > > No good astrologer > > has ever had a weak Uranus in his/her natal chart. > > That's a joke waiting to happen, but I've posted my share of attempted > witticisms today. Damn. > > c > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Apr 21 18:36:42 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Message-ID: <20030421223642.EADAF410A@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Apr 21 18:47:20 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:47:20 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle References: <20030421223642.EADAF410A@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <3EA474F8.7BA156D4@earthlink.net> Gee, that's a rather personal question, Bob. Okay? - Jim CobbCoStudioArts wrote: > > Jim, > > I don't suppose Collins is accessible? Okay! > > Bob > > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > --- James Cervantes wrote: > >No, I didn't write. That was Collins' definition. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Truly. > > > >- Jim > > > >CobbCoStudioArts wrote: > >> > >> Jim, > >> > >> You wrote: > >> > >> >> >"one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > >> >> >d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century. It is a poem of four six-line > >> >> >stanzas in which the first and second lines, as well as the third and fourth > >> >> >lines of the first three stanzas, must be identical. The fifth and sixth > >> >> >lines, which traditionally resolve these stanzas, must use all the words > >> >> >from the preceding lines and only those words. Similarly, the final stanza > >> >> >must use every word from all the preceding stanzas and only those words." > >> >> > > >> >> >- Jim > >> > >> Bob replied: > >> > >> Got any examples of such love poems? > >> >> > >> >> Bob > >> > >> Poetry Catamaran > >> > >> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > >> > >> Robert R. Cobb > >> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > >> http://rrcobb.tripod.com > >> > >> --- James Cervantes wrote: > >> >What love poems? I posted the only extant example of a "paralleladelle." > >> > > >> >- Jim > >> > > >> >CobbCoStudioArts wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Jim, > >> >> > >> >> Got any examples of such love poems? > >> >> > >> >> Bob > >> >> > >> >> Poetry Catamaran > >> >> > >> >> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > >> >> > >> >> Robert R. Cobb > >> >> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > >> >> http://rrcobb.tripod.com > >> >> > >> >> --- James Cervantes wrote: > >> >> >I had my own recipe backwards at one point. It should have been: > >> >> > > >> >> >* In this form of the paradelle, the demanding though boring task of > >> >> >repeated words is abandoned in lieu of similar or anthithetical > >> >> >concepts, and the final precept is ignored as much as possible, allowing > >> >> >the exception of unavoidable conjunctions and prepositions; if you can > >> >> >avoid those, I doff my hat to you. There are, of course, other > >> >> >subtleties that observe or ignore Collins' definition: > >> >> > > >> >> >"one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > >> >> >d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century. It is a poem of four six-line > >> >> >stanzas in which the first and second lines, as well as the third and fourth > >> >> >lines of the first three stanzas, must be identical. The fifth and sixth > >> >> >lines, which traditionally resolve these stanzas, must use all the words > >> >> >from the preceding lines and only those words. Similarly, the final stanza > >> >> >must use every word from all the preceding stanzas and only those words." > >> >> > > >> >> >- Jim > >> >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >> >New-Poetry mailing list > >> >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >New-Poetry mailing list > >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Apr 21 23:20:50 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Message-ID: <20030422032050.2EF864446@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Apr 21 23:30:12 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 22:30:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle In-Reply-To: <20030422032050.2EF864446@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: Bob, the paradelle is something Collins made up. I believe it originally was a portmanteau word, meaning "parody villanelle." It's a deliberately silly form. Once he'd "invented" this form, however, and written his one example poem, a number of other poets took up the challenge of writing paradelles. So now I guess it's a real form. No doubt it will soon be translated into French by someone or other, but it ain't an old French form. Trust me. . . . Jim Cervantes's paradiddle or paralleladelle or whatever is much better than Collins's, anyway. Examples here: http://www.geocities.com/prospero2u/archparadelle.html ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > > Nothing personal was intended. I guess that I can do without knowing more > about the poetry form that Collins described: "one of the more demanding > French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue >>>>>>>> d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century." All that I was curious >>>>>>>> about was where I might find some examples of this poetry. If Collins >>>>>>>> or you are privy to this information, I would still appreciare seeing a >>>>>>>> poem or two translated into English from French in "one of the more >>>>>>>> demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue >>>>>>>> d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century." I apologize for any >>>>>>>> unintended misunderstandings. > > Bob From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Mon Apr 21 23:40:57 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:40:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Message-ID: <75.f47ede6.2bd613c9@aol.com> In a message dated 4/21/2003 11:31:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > No doubt it will soon be > translated into French by someone or other, but it ain't an old French > form. > Trust me. . . . > My money's on Muriel Paradelle, my friend, the prisoner's rights lawyer and poet in Montreal. Right now she's working on taxonomies and villain-elles. Alors, she moaned to me on the phone, mais no one will read them! Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Apr 21 23:55:47 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:55:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Message-ID: <75.f48889e.2bd61743@cs.com> In a message dated 4/21/2003 10:31:29 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > Bob, the paradelle is something Collins made up. I believe it originally > was a portmanteau word, meaning "parody villanelle." It's a deliberately > silly form. Once he'd "invented" this form, however, and written his one > example poem, a number of other poets took up the challenge of writing > paradelles. So now I guess it's a real form. No doubt it will soon be > translated into French by someone or other, but it ain't an old French > form. > Trust me. . . . > > Jim Cervantes's paradiddle or paralleladelle or whatever is much better > than > Collins's, anyway. > > Examples here: > > > http://www.geocities.com/prospero2u/archparadelle.html > A woman named Theresa Welford at a college in S. C. has compiled an anthology of them, and I believe it's going to be published soon. Paradelle of Easy Assembly Some assembly may be required. Some assembly may be required. And you should have simple tools on hand. And you should have simple tools on hand. You may be simple on assembly And should have required some hand tools. Please count and check your parts. Please count and check your parts. Screws, washers, nuts, bolts, grommets. Screws, washers, nuts, bolts, grommets. Count your nuts, bolts, grommets. Check parts, screws, and washers. Please. Follow all directions carefully. Follow all directions carefully. Do not skip a single step. Do not skip a single step. Carefully follow not A single step. Do skip all directions. Skip all carefully and follow not. Count directions. Check your nuts, Please. Should have parts, bolts, grommets. Assembly: a single hand May be required. Do some screws. Step on parts, tools, and washers. You simple. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbyrne at risd.edu Tue Apr 22 00:01:45 2003 From: mbyrne at risd.edu (Mairead Byrne) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:01:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stephanie Strickland at RISD 4.24.03 Message-ID: Prize-winning poet and hypertext poetry pioneer STEPHANIE STRICKLAND will present a combination oral/electronic reading, with CYNTHIA LAWSON, new media technologist and educator, at Rhode Island School of Design (Tap Room,2nd floor, Memorial Hall, between RISD Museum and RISD Library on Benefit Street, Thursday April 24, 7pm) from V: WaveSon.nets/Losing L'Una as published by the Penguin Poets series in September 2002. V is an invertible book with two beginnings. In it, words slip and pour across numbers that have their own lives. At the book's opened center, where Losing L'Una turns over into WaveSon.nets and vice-versa, one jumps via a pointer(http://vniverse.com) to the book's third section. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Apr 22 00:12:02 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Message-ID: <20030422041202.B461F3E56@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:55:47 EDT Size: 6605 URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Apr 22 00:18:06 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Message-ID: <20030422041806.B80984450@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 23:55:47 EDT Size: 6605 URL: From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 22 01:52:25 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 21:52:25 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle References: <20030422041202.B461F3E56@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <00af01c30893$5da84770$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Monday, April 21, 2003 8:12 PM, CobbCoStudioArts spake thusly: > Thanks for thr explanation. I guess I am just too gullible, I > really took Collins too literally! You're not the only one... I've seen a number of sites that have spoken of it as "a difficult old French form." A friend of mine had a student turn one in and claim it thus. My friend told the student he'd up his grade a letter if he could bring in an example... and the student brought in a poem-- plagiarized from the web, no less-- of some student's French exercise in which he wrote "Paradelle for my Dog" :) c From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 22 08:23:22 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:23:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <002501c30847$9738fb20$93ddfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EA4FBFA.4985.273F2C@localhost> Marcus Bales: > > Well, Bob, if you have a scientific theory of what poetry is and > > how it works that is testable in the real world, that your > > taxonomy relies on for its organization, let's hear it. Bob Grumman: > My taxonomy does not rely on it.<< Just so. And that's the problem, Bob. Your taxonomy is not scientific -- it's cargo-cult crap for as long as you insist it's scientific. It may be useful as a subjective categorization of a way to talk about poetry, but as science it is purest shine. Bob Grumman: > ... Anyway, my main argument is that my taxonomy is of value.<< It just has no SCIENTIFIC value, Bob. It has no OBJECTIVE value. It has only subjective value -- and it only has subjective value to the extent that you can persuade people to use it. You're not going to persuade people to use it by claiming it is what it is not. Everyone can see, Bob, that it is not scientific, that it's just another subjective ordering of old categories with new names. Why do you even bother to claim otherwise? Bob Grumman: > I consider it objective and scientific but that's irrelevant.< No, that's not irrelevant, Bob -- that's your central claim to your system's signficance: that you have a SCIENTIFIC way of talking about poetry. The problem is, though, that you have no such thing, and your claim is false. You have a subjective system, but you haven't got a scientific or objective one. Bob Grumman: > What counts is whether it works or not. < Well, in science, Bob, what counts as "works" is clearly different from what you think counts as "works." In science "works" means "can be used to make accurate predictions". Since you deny that your system makes any accurate predictions at all, you are denying that it is scientific. Bob Grumman: > ... I give an example of how one of my > definitions can say something that, if accepted, objectively distinguishes > one group of things from another and you assume I've given a complete > definition and attack it for that reason.<< You keep trying to slip that "objectively" in there, Bob, but it's no good. Using "the big lie" fallacy over and over doesn't keep it from being a fallacy. Your system is NOT OBJECTIVE. It is a subjective opinion that you are trying to foist off on others by making false claims for it. You seem to misunderstand entirely what science is all about. You have to make an hypothesis, then design an experiment to test that hypothesis for whether it can be used to make accurate predictions about the world. In short, Bob, you have to show how your purported "taxonomy" can be used to predict whether a bit of text taken from a larger text will be a poem or not -- and it has to be right nearly every time, and every user has to be able to be right nearly every time. If you can't achieve that level of accuracy, Bob, you've got subjective guesswork, not objective science. Bob Grumman: Wrong. I have to show that it works as a way to distinguish an A from a B, > and that it makes sense to distinguish the two. Etc. Your claim is that your system is scientific and objective. If you are going to make that claim then you have to show nearly 100% accuracy nearly 100% of the time for nearly 100% of the users. What you seem to think is science "that it works as a way to distinguish an A from a B, and that it makes sense to distinguish the two", is simply not science. We can distinguish one prayer from another, and show that it makes sense to do so because one prayer is to Vishnu and another is to Mary, but that distinction doesn't mean that we've done any science. Marcus Bales: > > ... Are you really > > not aware that a claim of objectivity and scientific truth is a > > demand to conform? Bob Grumman: > Yes.<< Well, Bob, if you're unaware of the power and force of scientific claims in the real world, of their demand for conformance, you're just using the words "scientific" and "objective" as the cargo-cult islanders are using bamboo antennae and carved wooden blocks to imitate reality with simulcra. You've revealed, once again, your fundamental misunderstanding about what science is and does. Marcus Bales: > > Is this really the problem -- that you think anything > > systematic is ipso facto scientific or objective? Bob Grumman: > No.< Well, then, Bob, take a look at your claims again in that light. When you're pressed, you only claim that your system is systematic -- you deny that it is all the constituent things it would take to make your system objective or scientific and then you claim it is objective or scientific. You can't reasonably have it both ways, Bob. You cannot reasonably claim both that your system is and is not at the same time objective and scientific. > > Bob Grumman: > > > My system is a method of classifying poetry. Other systems, very loose > > > ones, have existed in the past. My system is like theirs except with more > > > rigorous definitions and wider coverage.<< Marcus Bales: > > But that's no claim to objectivity OR to science! Are you > > abandoning, at last, your claim to objectivity and science, Bob? Bob Grumman: > No. You deny that it is all the constituent things it would take to make your system objective or scientific and then you claim it is objective or scientific. You can't reasonably have it both ways, Bob. You cannot reasonably claim both that your system is and is not at the same time objective and scientific. Bob Grumman: > ... I stand 100% behind "objective" (so far as > objectivity is possible for human beings). I stand 90% behind "scientific" > as I understand the term.< Well, that's probably the problem, Bob -- you don't understand either term. You're using even "objective" and "scientific" in metaphorical ways. You don't really mean what you claim when you use the words -- and that is just more evidence that you're equivocating, another fallacious rhetorical trick, using a word to mean two different things without distinguishing between their uses as you use them. Your claims, and your techniques to make your claims, are fallacious. > > Marcus Bales: > > > > That you've classified stuff I don't deny. I only deny that you've > > > > done any science. > > > Bob Grumman: > > > I haven't so far as the taxonomy is concerned.<< Just so, Bob, just ineluctably so. You haven't done any science "as far as the taxonomy is concerned", and so you admit at last that I'm right and you're wrong. Your taxonomy is NOT SCIENTIFIC. QED. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 22 08:25:23 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 08:25:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hayden In-Reply-To: <003101c30847$cdfe4840$93ddfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EA4FC73.10640.2917D5@localhost> Bob Grumman: > Rod McKuen is a real poet. Read my taxonomy and find out why. You have now admitted that your scientific claims for your "taxonomy" are false. Why should anyone bother to read your "taxonomy" at all, Bob, now that your central claim to having a better one has been revealed as false? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 22 07:58:56 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:58:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle In-Reply-To: <75.f48889e.2bd61743@cs.com> Message-ID: Actually, this is just Collins's version of the NYC situation called "paradelis," in which two delis in the same block are physically adjacent. Hal Bob, the paradelle is something Collins made up -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue Apr 22 09:06:34 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:06:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle References: Message-ID: <001501c308d0$0069f670$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> David -- I didn't know that. I'm one of the ones who got taken in. But the invented form certainly became justified with Jim's poem, which I love. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:30 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle > Bob, the paradelle is something Collins made up. I believe it originally > was a portmanteau word, meaning "parody villanelle." It's a deliberately > silly form. Once he'd "invented" this form, however, and written his one > example poem, a number of other poets took up the challenge of writing > paradelles. So now I guess it's a real form. No doubt it will soon be > translated into French by someone or other, but it ain't an old French form. > Trust me. . . . > > Jim Cervantes's paradiddle or paralleladelle or whatever is much better than > Collins's, anyway. > > Examples here: > > > http://www.geocities.com/prospero2u/archparadelle.html > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > > > Nothing personal was intended. I guess that I can do without knowing more > > about the poetry form that Collins described: "one of the more demanding > > French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > >>>>>>>> d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century." All that I was curious > >>>>>>>> about was where I might find some examples of this poetry. If Collins > >>>>>>>> or you are privy to this information, I would still appreciare seeing a > >>>>>>>> poem or two translated into English from French in "one of the more > >>>>>>>> demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > >>>>>>>> d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century." I apologize for any > >>>>>>>> unintended misunderstandings. > > > > Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Tue Apr 22 09:24:01 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 03 09:24:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] V Message-ID: <200304221325.h3MDPgwQ065198@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com> Sounds like as much fun as root canal Richard >> >>V is an invertible book with two beginnings. In it, words slip and pour >>across numbers that have their own lives. At the book's opened center, >>where Losing L'Una turns over into WaveSon.nets and vice-versa, one >>jumps via a pointer(http://vniverse.com) to the book's third section. >> From chris at chrislott.org Tue Apr 22 09:58:09 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 05:58:09 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle References: Message-ID: <004501c308d7$39031500$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Monday, April 21, 2003 7:30 PM, David Graham spake thusly: > No doubt it > will soon be translated into French by someone or other, but it ain't > an old French form. Trust me. . . . Here's the French paradelle the student turned in. "Paradelle Pour Mon Chien": http://members.tripod.com/~purplebyrd/writing/french/paradelle.html I like the computer translation better than the real one which I saw too late. c From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Apr 22 10:31:04 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Message-ID: <20030422143105.1DB094389@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Tue Apr 22 12:21:57 2003 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:21:57 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Un-silly (too un-silly?) Paradelle In-Reply-To: <200304221236.h3MCa7ST014175@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20030422091426.00b2f800@incoming.verizon.net> >Someone wrote: > >A woman named Theresa Welford at a college in S. C. [actually Geogia] has compiled an anthology >of them, [Paradelles] and I believe it's going to be published soon. For whatever interest it may have, here's my (serioso) contribution to Theresa's forthcoming anthology: Barry A ZEN PARADELLE That old gent with a broom, That old gent with a broom, What is he doing, out sweeping so early? What is he doing out sweeping so early? So old, that sweeping gent, out early, What is he doing with a broom? He's starting over, cleaning, renewing; He's starting over cleaning, renewing; Not wallowing in past mistakes; Not wallowing in past mistakes, Renewing, cleaning; wallowing over, He's not starting in past mistakes! What will he gain from meticulous care? What will he gain from meticulous care? Purity of emptiness. Purity, of emptiness: Meticulous care of purity, From emptiness gain what he will. From renewing, what gain? Starting over with sweeping of past mistakes, a broom doing cleaning, in purity. That old gent, he's not wallowing! Will Emptiness care what he is, meticulous, he out so early? Three six-line or more stanzas, in which lines 1+2, and 3+4 etc. are the same. Following doubled-lines, a stanza including each of the words previously used, with no additional words. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Apr 22 15:19:31 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Published? Perish the thought! was [New-Poetry] Un-silly (too un-silly?) Paradelle Message-ID: <20030422191932.6ACB9D105@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Apr 22 15:56:40 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 12:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Message-ID: <20030422195640.E0FC73B44@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Halvard Johnson" Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 07:58:56 -0400 Size: 4483 URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Apr 22 16:03:11 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 13:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle Message-ID: <20030422200312.29C47E4BA@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 22 16:57:53 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:57:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3EA4FBFA.4985.273F2C@localhost> Message-ID: <00a801c30911$d86e30e0$7b7ffea9@j1c1k6> You got it, Marcus: QED. And you did it without once showing you knew the first thing about my taxonomy! Congratulations! --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA > Marcus Bales: > > > Well, Bob, if you have a scientific theory of what poetry is and > > > how it works that is testable in the real world, that your > > > taxonomy relies on for its organization, let's hear it. > > Bob Grumman: > > My taxonomy does not rely on it.<< > > Just so. And that's the problem, Bob. Your taxonomy is not > scientific -- it's cargo-cult crap for as long as you insist it's > scientific. It may be useful as a subjective categorization of a way > to talk about poetry, but as science it is purest shine. > > Bob Grumman: > > ... Anyway, my main argument is that my taxonomy is of value.<< > > It just has no SCIENTIFIC value, Bob. It has no OBJECTIVE value. It > has only subjective value -- and it only has subjective value to the > extent that you can persuade people to use it. You're not going to > persuade people to use it by claiming it is what it is not. Everyone > can see, Bob, that it is not scientific, that it's just another > subjective ordering of old categories with new names. Why do you even > bother to claim otherwise? > > Bob Grumman: > > I consider it objective and scientific but that's irrelevant.< > > No, that's not irrelevant, Bob -- that's your central claim to your > system's signficance: that you have a SCIENTIFIC way of talking about > poetry. The problem is, though, that you have no such thing, and your > claim is false. You have a subjective system, but you haven't got a > scientific or objective one. > > Bob Grumman: > > What counts is whether it works or not. < > > Well, in science, Bob, what counts as "works" is clearly different > from what you think counts as "works." In science "works" means "can > be used to make accurate predictions". Since you deny that your > system makes any accurate predictions at all, you are denying that it > is scientific. > > Bob Grumman: > > ... I give an example of how one of my > > definitions can say something that, if accepted, objectively distinguishes > > one group of things from another and you assume I've given a complete > > definition and attack it for that reason.<< > > You keep trying to slip that "objectively" in there, Bob, but it's no > good. Using "the big lie" fallacy over and over doesn't keep it from > being a fallacy. Your system is NOT OBJECTIVE. It is a subjective > opinion that you are trying to foist off on others by making false > claims for it. You seem to misunderstand entirely what science is all > about. You have to make an hypothesis, then design an experiment to > test that hypothesis for whether it can be used to make accurate > predictions about the world. In short, Bob, you have to show how > your purported "taxonomy" can be used to predict whether a bit of > text taken from a larger text will be a poem or not -- and it has to > be right nearly every time, and every user has to be able to be right > nearly every time. If you can't achieve that level of accuracy, Bob, > you've got subjective guesswork, not objective science. > > Bob Grumman: > Wrong. I have to show that it works as a way to distinguish an A > from a B, > > and that it makes sense to distinguish the two. Etc. > > Your claim is that your system is scientific and objective. If you > are going to make that claim then you have to show nearly 100% > accuracy nearly 100% of the time for nearly 100% of the users. What > you seem to think is science "that it works as a way to distinguish > an A from a B, and that it makes sense to distinguish the two", is > simply not science. We can distinguish one prayer from another, and > show that it makes sense to do so because one prayer is to Vishnu and > another is to Mary, but that distinction doesn't mean that we've done > any science. > > Marcus Bales: > > > ... Are you really > > > not aware that a claim of objectivity and scientific truth is a > > > demand to conform? > > Bob Grumman: > > Yes.<< > > Well, Bob, if you're unaware of the power and force of scientific > claims in the real world, of their demand for conformance, you're > just using the words "scientific" and "objective" as the cargo-cult > islanders are using bamboo antennae and carved wooden blocks to > imitate reality with simulcra. You've revealed, once again, your > fundamental misunderstanding about what science is and does. > > Marcus Bales: > > > Is this really the problem -- that you think anything > > > systematic is ipso facto scientific or objective? > > Bob Grumman: > > No.< > > Well, then, Bob, take a look at your claims again in that light. When > you're pressed, you only claim that your system is systematic -- you > deny that it is all the constituent things it would take to make your > system objective or scientific and then you claim it is objective or > scientific. You can't reasonably have it both ways, Bob. You cannot > reasonably claim both that your system is and is not at the same time > objective and scientific. > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > My system is a method of classifying poetry. Other systems, very loose > > > > ones, have existed in the past. My system is like theirs except with more > > > > rigorous definitions and wider coverage.<< > > Marcus Bales: > > > But that's no claim to objectivity OR to science! Are you > > > abandoning, at last, your claim to objectivity and science, Bob? > > Bob Grumman: > > No. > > You deny that it is all the constituent things it would take to make > your system objective or scientific and then you claim it is > objective or scientific. You can't reasonably have it both ways, Bob. > You cannot reasonably claim both that your system is and is not at > the same time objective and scientific. > > Bob Grumman: > > ... I stand 100% behind "objective" (so far as > > objectivity is possible for human beings). I stand 90% behind "scientific" > > as I understand the term.< > > Well, that's probably the problem, Bob -- you don't understand either > term. You're using even "objective" and "scientific" in metaphorical > ways. You don't really mean what you claim when you use the words -- > and that is just more evidence that you're equivocating, another > fallacious rhetorical trick, using a word to mean two different > things without distinguishing between their uses as you use them. > Your claims, and your techniques to make your claims, are fallacious. > > > > Marcus Bales: > > > > > That you've classified stuff I don't deny. I only deny that you've > > > > > done any science. > > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > I haven't so far as the taxonomy is concerned.<< > > Just so, Bob, just ineluctably so. You haven't done any science "as > far as the taxonomy is concerned", and so you admit at last that I'm > right and you're wrong. Your taxonomy is NOT SCIENTIFIC. > > QED. > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Apr 22 18:12:54 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:12:54 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle References: <20030422032050.2EF864446@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <3EA5BE66.675071BF@earthlink.net> I was just being wise-cracky. I thought it was clear Collins' paradelle was a faux form, aka California langue d'la dee da. - Jim CobbCoStudioArts wrote: > > Jim, > > Nothing personal was intended. I guess that I can do without knowing more about the poetry form that Collins described: "one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > >> >> >> >d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century." All that I was curious about was where I might find some examples of this poetry. If Collins or you are privy to this information, I would still appreciare seeing a poem or two translated into English from French in "one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > >> >> >> >d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century." I apologize for any unintended misunderstandings. > > Bob > > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > --- James Cervantes wrote: > >Gee, that's a rather personal question, Bob. Okay? > > > >- Jim > > > >CobbCoStudioArts wrote: > >> > >> Jim, > >> > >> I don't suppose Collins is accessible? Okay! > >> > >> Bob > >> > >> Poetry Catamaran > >> > >> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > >> > >> Robert R. Cobb > >> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > >> http://rrcobb.tripod.com > >> > >> --- James Cervantes wrote: > >> >No, I didn't write. That was Collins' definition. > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Truly. > >> > > >> >- Jim > >> > > >> >CobbCoStudioArts wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Jim, > >> >> > >> >> You wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >> >"one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > >> >> >> >d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century. It is a poem of four six-line > >> >> >> >stanzas in which the first and second lines, as well as the third and fourth > >> >> >> >lines of the first three stanzas, must be identical. The fifth and sixth > >> >> >> >lines, which traditionally resolve these stanzas, must use all the words > >> >> >> >from the preceding lines and only those words. Similarly, the final stanza > >> >> >> >must use every word from all the preceding stanzas and only those words." > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >- Jim > >> >> > >> >> Bob replied: > >> >> > >> >> Got any examples of such love poems? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Bob > >> >> > >> >> Poetry Catamaran > >> >> > >> >> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > >> >> > >> >> Robert R. Cobb > >> >> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > >> >> http://rrcobb.tripod.com > >> >> > >> >> --- James Cervantes wrote: > >> >> >What love poems? I posted the only extant example of a "paralleladelle." > >> >> > > >> >> >- Jim > >> >> > > >> >> >CobbCoStudioArts wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Jim, > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Got any examples of such love poems? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Bob > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Poetry Catamaran > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Robert R. Cobb > >> >> >> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > >> >> >> http://rrcobb.tripod.com > >> >> >> > >> >> >> --- James Cervantes wrote: > >> >> >> >I had my own recipe backwards at one point. It should have been: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >* In this form of the paradelle, the demanding though boring task of > >> >> >> >repeated words is abandoned in lieu of similar or anthithetical > >> >> >> >concepts, and the final precept is ignored as much as possible, allowing > >> >> >> >the exception of unavoidable conjunctions and prepositions; if you can > >> >> >> >avoid those, I doff my hat to you. There are, of course, other > >> >> >> >subtleties that observe or ignore Collins' definition: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >"one of the more demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > >> >> >> >d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century. It is a poem of four six-line > >> >> >> >stanzas in which the first and second lines, as well as the third and fourth > >> >> >> >lines of the first three stanzas, must be identical. The fifth and sixth > >> >> >> >lines, which traditionally resolve these stanzas, must use all the words > >> >> >> >from the preceding lines and only those words. Similarly, the final stanza > >> >> >> >must use every word from all the preceding stanzas and only those words." > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >- Jim > >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >> >> >New-Poetry mailing list > >> >> >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >> >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >> >New-Poetry mailing list > >> >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >New-Poetry mailing list > >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Apr 22 18:16:23 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 15:16:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle References: <001501c308d0$0069f670$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <3EA5BF37.5DDF91F7@earthlink.net> Shucks. I blush. Working now on an ambidextrous sonnet. - Jim TheOldMole wrote: > > David -- I didn't know that. I'm one of the ones who got taken in. > > But the invented form certainly became justified with Jim's poem, which I > love. > > Tad > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 11:30 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] correction to recipe for alt. paradelle > > > Bob, the paradelle is something Collins made up. I believe it originally > > was a portmanteau word, meaning "parody villanelle." It's a deliberately > > silly form. Once he'd "invented" this form, however, and written his one > > example poem, a number of other poets took up the challenge of writing > > paradelles. So now I guess it's a real form. No doubt it will soon be > > translated into French by someone or other, but it ain't an old French > form. > > Trust me. . . . > > > > Jim Cervantes's paradiddle or paralleladelle or whatever is much better > than > > Collins's, anyway. > > > > Examples here: > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/prospero2u/archparadelle.html > > > > ==================================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > > > Nothing personal was intended. I guess that I can do without knowing > more > > > about the poetry form that Collins described: "one of the more demanding > > > French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > > >>>>>>>> d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century." All that I was > curious > > >>>>>>>> about was where I might find some examples of this poetry. If > Collins > > >>>>>>>> or you are privy to this information, I would still appreciare > seeing a > > >>>>>>>> poem or two translated into English from French in "one of the > more > > >>>>>>>> demanding French fixed forms, first appearing in the langue > > >>>>>>>> d'oc love poetry of the eleventh century." I apologize for any > > >>>>>>>> unintended misunderstandings. > > > > > > Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Apr 22 19:57:40 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Published? Perish the thought! was [New-Poetry] Un-silly (too Message-ID: <20030422235740.9FC474D5B@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 22 20:16:54 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (marcus at designerglass.com) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 00:16:54 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <200304230114.h3N1EpST022937@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Bob Grumman: > You got it, Marcus: QED. And you did it without once showing you knew the > first thing about my taxonomy!<< Your claim is that your so-called "taxonomy" is scientific and objective -- and you've finally admitted that that claim is false. Good enough. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 22 22:47:48 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:47:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <200304230114.h3N1EpST022937@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <001c01c30942$ba4b62a0$56d4fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > You got it, Marcus: QED. And you did it without once showing you knew the > > first thing about my taxonomy!<< > > Your claim is that your so-called "taxonomy" is scientific and objective -- and > you've finally admitted that that claim is false. > > Good enough. > I have never said it was not objective. It is objective. I will only concede that it is not scientific if we take "scientific" to mean what you say it does. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 23 08:02:14 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 08:02:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <001c01c30942$ba4b62a0$56d4fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EA64886.23664.24886C@localhost> > > Bob Grumman: > > > You got it, Marcus: QED. And you did it without once showing you knew the > > > first thing about my taxonomy!<< Marcus Bales: > > Your claim is that your so-called "taxonomy" is scientific and objective -- and > > you've finally admitted that that claim is false. > > Good enough. Bob Grumman: > I have never said it was not objective. It is objective. << Well, Bob, the category "burstnorm" convicts your system of not being objective because it assumes a norm in an ever-changing field. Wordsworth's "burstnorm" in 1790 is the norm in 1830 and old- fashioned in 1890. Unless you're willing to say that the category of "burstnorm" can be Wordsworth in one era and Hopkins in another and Grumman in yet another -- in other words, unless you assert that mammals can be fish or reptiles depending on what decade of which century they're viewed, which is ludicrous on the face of it -- the very name of your category convicts your system of subjectivity. > I will only concede that it is not scientific if we take > "scientific" to mean what you say it does. What "scientific" means is pretty clear in the world of science. Anything may be art that anyone claims is art, but things are scientific only if they make accurate predictions about the real world through the process of the scientific method. Your system neither makes accurate predictions nor employs the scientific method. Your system is simply not scientific. Now, Bob, it may be useful in the arts to every once in a while re- name the old categories with new names, and shuffle some notions around within those categories to try to describe what the contemporary arts look like. But that's not science, Bob -- that's good old-fashioned art criticism: subjective, personal, and embedded in the milieu of the time in which it's done. There is nothing objective or scientific about it. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Apr 23 08:34:15 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 05:34:15 -0700 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3EA64886.23664.24886C@localhost> Message-ID: <3EA68847.2094DEF9@earthlink.net> The fact that you two can't carry this on backchannel says a lot. I usually dump these unread, but I had to use this one to say ENOUGH. Please. - Jim Marcus Bales wrote: > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > You got it, Marcus: QED. And you did it without once showing you knew the > > > > first thing about my taxonomy!<< > > Marcus Bales: > > > Your claim is that your so-called "taxonomy" is scientific and objective -- and > > > you've finally admitted that that claim is false. > > > Good enough. > > Bob Grumman: > > I have never said it was not objective. It is objective. << > > Well, Bob, the category "burstnorm" convicts your system of not being > objective because it assumes a norm in an ever-changing field. > Wordsworth's "burstnorm" in 1790 is the norm in 1830 and old- > fashioned in 1890. Unless you're willing to say that the category of > "burstnorm" can be Wordsworth in one era and Hopkins in another and > Grumman in yet another -- in other words, unless you assert that > mammals can be fish or reptiles depending on what decade of which > century they're viewed, which is ludicrous on the face of it -- the > very name of your category convicts your system of subjectivity. > > > I will only concede that it is not scientific if we take > > "scientific" to mean what you say it does. > > What "scientific" means is pretty clear in the world of science. > Anything may be art that anyone claims is art, but things are > scientific only if they make accurate predictions about the real > world through the process of the scientific method. Your system > neither makes accurate predictions nor employs the scientific method. > Your system is simply not scientific. > > Now, Bob, it may be useful in the arts to every once in a while re- > name the old categories with new names, and shuffle some notions > around within those categories to try to describe what the > contemporary arts look like. But that's not science, Bob -- that's > good old-fashioned art criticism: subjective, personal, and embedded > in the milieu of the time in which it's done. There is nothing > objective or scientific about it. > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Apr 23 09:03:10 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:03:10 -0400 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <3EA68847.2094DEF9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3EA656CE.7346.5C532C@localhost> On 23 Apr 2003 at 5:34, James Cervantes wrote: > The fact that you two can't carry this on backchannel says a lot. I > usually dump these unread, but I had to use this one to say ENOUGH. Please. Yeah, heaven forbid we should talk about poetry on a poetry list. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 23 09:20:23 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:20:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dana Gioia on C-Span right now Message-ID: Just in case you're interested, Dana Gioia is doing a stint on C-Span's Washington Journal right now (9:20 EDT). Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 23 09:37:54 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 09:37:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dana Gioia on C-Span right now In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Okay, I just caught the last ten minutes of Gioia's half hour. One thing: He admitted that his favorite art is opera, imagine! Another: He said he doesn't understand *everything* in Shakespeare. I say we can do better than this for NEA Chairman, and hereby propose that Marcus Bales and Bob Grumman be co-chairmen, thus dividing the US arts world between them. Hal { Just in case you're interested, Dana Gioia { is doing a stint on C-Span's Washington Journal { right now (9:20 EDT). { { Hal Serving the tri-state area. { { Halvard Johnson { =============== { email: halvard at earthlink.net { website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 23 10:54:22 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 07:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dana Gioia on C-Span right now In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030423145422.74118.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah--God forbid that our NEA head doesn't completely and fully understand absolutely every single word that William Shakespeare ever wrote. Certainly, every academic I know understands all that the Bard wrote (even if the Bard didn't write it--or did he? Enter Robert Stack, stage left). Jeff Newberrry Halvard Johnson wrote:Okay, I just caught the last ten minutes of Gioia's half hour. One thing: He admitted that his favorite art is opera, imagine! Another: He said he doesn't understand *everything* in Shakespeare. I say we can do better than this for NEA Chairman, and hereby propose that Marcus Bales and Bob Grumman be co-chairmen, thus dividing the US arts world between them. Hal { Just in case you're interested, Dana Gioia { is doing a stint on C-Span's Washington Journal { right now (9:20 EDT). { { Hal Serving the tri-state area. { { Halvard Johnson { =============== { email: halvard at earthlink.net { website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 23 10:54:01 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 10:54:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Dana Gioia on C-Span right now Message-ID: <5f.387e409a.2bd80309@cs.com> In a message dated 4/23/2003 8:50:03 AM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > Okay, I just caught the last ten minutes of Gioia's > half hour. One thing: He admitted that his favorite > art is opera, imagine! Another: He said he doesn't > understand *everything* in Shakespeare. > > I say we can do better than this for NEA Chairman, > and hereby propose that Marcus Bales and Bob > Grumman be co-chairmen, thus dividing the US > arts world between them. > > Hal I've already proposed them for co-chairmanship of the Arts Commission for the People's Republic of Iraq. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 23 11:09:48 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:09:48 -0400 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <3EA656CE.7346.5C532C@localhost> Message-ID: { Yeah, heaven forbid we should talk about poetry on a poetry list. { { { Marcus Bales None dare call it "squabbling," eh? And define "heaven," please. Hal "I would like the world to know that I am a poet first and a would-be assassin last." --John W. Hinckley, Jr. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 23 11:26:09 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:26:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dana Gioia on C-Span right now In-Reply-To: <5f.387e409a.2bd80309@cs.com> Message-ID: Even better. Hal I say we can do better than this for NEA Chairman, and hereby propose that Marcus Bales and Bob Grumman be co-chairmen, thus dividing the US arts world between them. Hal I've already proposed them for co-chairmanship of the Arts Commission for the People's Republic of Iraq. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 23 11:47:30 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 11:47:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Po(ker)biz and a poem by James McManus Message-ID: For your reading pleasure, a double dose of James McManus-- First, from the NYT of yesterday http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/22/books/22POKE.html Then this (file under "Poems by others") Gespensterwellen What's a ghost? I overhear him say with tingling energy. One word or less. One who will *not fade away* through radical time or chord changes, bad manners, or death. Not even from too-minty breath. Plus that weird Alec Guinness premonition, or early d?j? vu, that James Dean totals his Porsche at noon the afternoon before it happens? Good reason for Shane to drink Guinness. Photographing, dating, painting or naming ghosts helps, but once she waves bye-bye everything follows with most unfair certainty, like a prayer almost, goosing the market for art stars. Take Moira's fisheater farts in the kitchen or, worse, under our blue Ramberg quilt: void where prohibited. Women! Those richards! Those wearers of certain underwear! I mean how *dare* they? Yet such things do have a way of turning out to be pretty much what we will make of them anyway. Like am I wanton or wanted or wonto I wonder. I cancer us in Japanese, I'm on my knees to cancel us. But please don't be putting my pretty big head into that little git hat just yet. I've done my duty, Mack, so that's enough of that. Face it. I'm grotty. My hair's way too long. Paint it black, '69, speedballs and crunchy. Amen. --James McManus fr. *Great America* [New York: HarperCollins, 1993] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 23 14:48:39 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:48:39 -0400 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3EA64886.23664.24886C@localhost> <3EA68847.2094DEF9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <005401c309c8$f6618040$5cf7fea9@j1c1k6> > The fact that you two can't carry this on backchannel says a lot. I > usually dump these unread, but I had to use this one to say ENOUGH. Please. > > - Jim The fact that you assume no one is interested in taxonomy because you aren't says a lot, too, Jim. Admittedly, Marcus did not let much about taxonomy come through on this thread; still, a few interesting points were made, even by him. I did concede defete a post or two back, though. So you won't have the discomfort of using your delete button on my posts to the thread you're complaining about anymore. I expect to continue to post to new-poetry, though, so I fear you'll still have things to delete. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 23 14:59:16 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 14:59:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dana Gioia on C-Span right now References: <20030423145422.74118.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009101c309ca$73f9cb60$5cf7fea9@j1c1k6> Did I miss something? Did someone deride Gioia for admitting he didn't entirely understand Shakespeare? So long as he understands that we must keep pouring money into Shakespeare productions instead of into plays by contemporary playwrights, who cares? --Bob G. Yeah--God forbid that our NEA head doesn't completely and fully understand absolutely every single word that William Shakespeare ever wrote. Certainly, every academic I know understands all that the Bard wrote (even if the Bard didn't write it--or did he? Enter Robert Stack, stage left). Jeff Newberrry Halvard Johnson wrote: Okay, I just caught the last ten minutes of Gioia's half hour. One thing: He admitted that his favorite art is opera, imagine! Another: He said he doesn't understand *everything* in Shakespeare. I say we can do better than this for NEA Chairman, and hereby propose that Marcus Bales and Bob Grumman be co-chairmen, thus dividing the US arts world between them. Hal { Just in case you're interested, Dana Gioia { is doing a stint on C-Span's Washington Journal { right now (9:20 EDT). { { Hal Serving the tri-state area. { { Halvard Johnson { =============== { email: halvard at earthlink.net { website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { _____! __________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Wed Apr 23 20:35:06 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 16:35:06 -0800 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3EA64886.23664.24886C@localhost> <3EA68847.2094DEF9@earthlink.net> <005401c309c8$f6618040$5cf7fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <012f01c309f9$5b6f18a0$5b15e589@devbox> Maybe it's just the sheer repetition, even after the ostensible calling of "Uncle" that is the problem, not taxonomy. And certainly not poetry. Personally, I'd like to see you bring a few threads together (in a tangential way) and come up with a good phrenology of poetry, or physiognomy of poetry. The whole taxonomy thing is so Aristotle and passe... c -- Chris Lott From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 23 22:43:50 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:43:50 -0400 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3EA64886.23664.24886C@localhost> <3EA68847.2094DEF9@earthlink.net> <005401c309c8$f6618040$5cf7fea9@j1c1k6> <012f01c309f9$5b6f18a0$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <008101c30a0b$57bc92c0$56f0fea9@j1c1k6> > Maybe it's just the sheer repetition, even after the ostensible calling of > "Uncle" that is the problem, not taxonomy. And certainly not poetry. It was a terrible exchange. > Personally, I'd like to see you bring a few threads together (in a > tangential way) and come up with a good phrenology of poetry, or physiognomy > of poetry. The whole taxonomy thing is so Aristotle and passe... Ordinarily--in my reviews and the like--I do phreniognomy. But I think a formal taxonomy is required for those interested in poetics and aesthetics, if not for poets. --Bob G. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Apr 23 23:30:52 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <20030424033052.4069E4055@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Apr 23 23:39:14 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vive` la France! Message-ID: <20030424033914.25111412F@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From chris at chrislott.org Thu Apr 24 00:07:01 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 20:07:01 -0800 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3EA64886.23664.24886C@localhost> <3EA68847.2094DEF9@earthlink.net> <005401c309c8$f6618040$5cf7fea9@j1c1k6> <012f01c309f9$5b6f18a0$5b15e589@devbox> <008101c30a0b$57bc92c0$56f0fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <004401c30a16$f90ddf20$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Wednesday, April 23, 2003 6:43 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > But I > think a formal taxonomy is required for those interested in poetics > and aesthetics, if not for poets. Really? You? I never would have guessed... c -- Chris Lott From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Apr 24 01:04:20 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 00:04:20 -0500 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <3EA656CE.7346.5C532C@localhost> References: <3EA68847.2094DEF9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030424000204.012afdb0@mail.ilstu.edu> At 09:03 AM 4/23/2003 -0400, Marcus Bales wrote: >Yeah, heaven forbid we should talk about poetry on a poetry list. Just FYI, Marcus Bales was just last week kicked off PoetryEtc for precisely this sin he here describes, failing to talk about poetry. Oh, yeah, and his ad hominem attacks against list members. _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From chris at chrislott.org Thu Apr 24 02:10:54 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 22:10:54 -0800 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3EA68847.2094DEF9@earthlink.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030424000204.012afdb0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <005201c30a28$64a01c10$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Wednesday, April 23, 2003 9:04 PM, Gabriel Gudding spake thusly: > Just FYI, Marcus Bales was just last week kicked off PoetryEtc for > precisely this sin he here describes, failing to talk about poetry. I missed that announcement, but as of late you haven't been the exmplar of providing poetry-centered content to poetryetc or this list. I fail to see how his behavior warranted a kicking any more than your own. But the cliques will rein. > Oh, yeah, and his ad hominem attacks against list members. I don't see a lot of evidence of that except for a rhetorical retort of "shiteaters" to your own "goatfuckers", neither of which did anyone proud, and only some real angel-counting could try to describe how your-- umm, profundity-- was somehow of more merit than his. Oh, and a rather funny little poem in response to your own pattern of name-calling. Deep conversation there. It seems to be a pattern that you are big on sending crap out but have a hard time accepting the same in return. Garbage in, garbage out, like most lists. I guess I should stop contributing to the flow. c From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Apr 24 07:39:50 2003 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 04:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <20030424113950.A18B23C75@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Apr 24 08:17:01 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:17:01 -0400 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030424000204.012afdb0@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <3EA656CE.7346.5C532C@localhost> Message-ID: <3EA79D7D.2353.7EE0A@localhost> Marcus Bales wrote: > >Yeah, heaven forbid we should talk about poetry on a poetry list. Gabe Gudding: > Just FYI, Marcus Bales was just last week kicked off PoetryEtc for > precisely this sin he here describes, failing to talk about poetry. Oh, > yeah, and his ad hominem attacks against list members. A false accusation from Gabe Gudding? What could be more expected? Gabe was spamming the Poetryetc. list with leftwingnut political spam that he introduced invariably by name-calling other members of the list who disagreed with him, thus: "Hey, you goatfucking war- supporters!" Gabe was touting the notion, in prose, that anyone who supported the war, however tentatively or contingently, was as much a baby-killer as any US solider. My response was to write a poem, which follows. And thanks, Gabe, for giving me a chance to post it here, too. Poor Gabe! Poor Gabe! He's jumping up and down, his face Is red, his hiccupped breath sounds sopped in pique; Two snot streams shine his lips and then disgrace His gaping mouth with webs of mucus weak With spit that spray in yowls, then clog in sucks Of coughing breath, then spray again. Poor Gabe! He never cries when any tyrant fucks The feckless folk, but Gabe cries like a babe When any tyrant's torture tools are lost. Poor Gabe! It has to be that torture turns him on And every tyrant wasted seems to cost Gabe pleasure when the torture chamber's gone. Reports of beaten babes keep Gabe beguiled -- He calls us names who want to save the child. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Apr 24 08:28:13 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:28:13 -0400 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030424000204.012afdb0@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <3EA656CE.7346.5C532C@localhost> Message-ID: <3EA7A01D.28142.122D52@localhost> On 24 Apr 2003 at 0:04, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Just FYI, Marcus Bales was just last week kicked off PoetryEtc for > precisely this sin he here describes, failing to talk about poetry. Oh, > yeah, and his ad hominem attacks against list members. Interestingly, checking the record of who searched for what on my art glass website I found this: > - YOUR SEARCH STATISTICS > at http://www.designerglass.com. > Here are the top phrases searched: > - 3 for "gluechipped" > - 1 for "ass hearder chiken fook" > - 1 for "biggus dickus" > - 1 for "dick head" > - 1 for "doublehung" > - 1 for "florida" > - 1 for "frosted glass" > - 1 for "glassbar bolewevil" > - 1 for "goat fucker" > - 1 for "janamaber art ass" Who do you imagine was on my site searching for "goat fucker", eh, Gabe? Or any of the other "dirty words" there? Could it have been ... YOU, Gabe? LOL! You're even more of a bawling child than I had imagined. Grow up! Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From mandolin at mac.com Thu Apr 24 08:24:45 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:24:45 -0400 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA Message-ID: <765214.1051187085413.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Thursday, April 24, 2003, at 08:17AM, Marcus Bales wrote: >Marcus Bales wrote: >> >Yeah, heaven forbid we should talk about poetry on a poetry list. > >Gabe Gudding: >> Just FYI, Marcus Bales was just last week kicked off PoetryEtc for >> precisely this sin he here describes, failing to talk about poetry. Oh, >> yeah, and his ad hominem attacks against list members. > >A false accusation from Gabe Gudding? What could be more expected? > >Gabe was spamming the Poetryetc. list with leftwingnut political spam >that he introduced invariably by name-calling other members of the >list who disagreed with him, thus: "Hey, you goatfucking war- >supporters!" Gabe was touting the notion, in prose, that anyone who Because of PoetryEtc's general approval of Gabriel's spamming and name-calling--one of the list owners was nearly as bad--I resigned from that list before it got to goatfucking. But Marcus's account is consistent with what I saw before leaving. Michael From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Apr 24 08:31:46 2003 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:31:46 +0100 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3EA656CE.7346.5C532C@localhost> <3EA79D7D.2353.7EE0A@localhost> Message-ID: <00d601c30a5d$7f301640$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> > Marcus Bales wrote: > > >Yeah, heaven forbid we should talk about poetry on a poetry list. > > Gabe Gudding: > > Just FYI, Marcus Bales was just last week kicked off PoetryEtc for > > precisely this sin he here describes, failing to talk about poetry. Oh, > > yeah, and his ad hominem attacks against list members. > > A false accusation from Gabe Gudding? What could be more expected? As this has come up ... There seems to be an outbreak of bannings on poetryetc at the moment. Was Roddy Lumsden before you got the boot, or after, Marcus? And most recently, dave bircumshaw. Gabe and I are still there. For the moment. Some of us are making a book as to who's going to be next. The clever money seems to be on me. [Sorry, yet once more, this has little directly to do with poetry.] Robin From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Thu Apr 24 08:33:27 2003 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:33:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mohammad on Milton In-Reply-To: <3EA7A01D.28142.122D52@localhost> References: <3EA656CE.7346.5C532C@localhost> <3EA7A01D.28142.122D52@localhost> Message-ID: <1051187607.3ea7d997de0f5@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Hi all, thought I'd copy you the latest post on K. Silem Mohammad's blog - http://limetree.blogspot.com For wide-ranging discussion of poetics in English he's hard to beat, go back through the archives if you find this interesting and you're in for a treat. -m. *************** Teaching Milton this quarter has been a rich pleasure.? Among English poets, he is the recognized master of syntactical innovation: his innovations have been so successful that it is now necessary to innovate away from them, and has been for the past couple hundred years.? Allowing that he picks up on Shakespeare's technique in this regard, he runs with it as far as can be imagined.? It's often pointed out that he uses Latinate structure to achieve his syntactic flexibility, and this is true, but in such a way as to make this structure almost synonymous with poetic syntax in English for more than two centuries.? What now might sound old-fashioned or stiffly conventional to some ears was at one point a startling, sudden expansion of prosodic frontiers.? Sit down for a half hour or so with "L'Allegro" and "Il Penseroso": even at this relatively early stage of his career, he was turning out subtle, sensuous verse whose power stemmed in large part from confidently lithe enjambment and expertly modulated grammatical pacing.? Or take this poem from 1655 or so: Sonnet 18 [On the late Massacher in Piemont] Avenge O Lord thy slaughter'd Saints, whose bones ??Lie scatter'd on the Alpine mountains cold, ??Ev'n them who kept thy truth so pure of old When all our Fathers worship't Stocks and Stones, Forget not: in thy book record their groanes ??Who were thy Sheep and in their antient Fold ??Slayn by the bloody Piemontese that roll'd Mother with Infant down the Rocks. Their moans The Vales redoubl'd to the Hills, and they ??To Heav'n. Their martyr'd blood and ashes sow O're all th' Italian fields where still doth sway ??The triple Tyrant: that from these may grow A hunder'd-fold, who having learnt thy way ??Early may fly the Babylonian wo. Much of the emotional urgency, the pathos, the sinewy pulse of this piece can be accounted for by syntax.? "Their moans / The Vales redoubl'd to the Hills, and they /?To Heav'n": stop and work this out.? It's a compactly enfolded contraction of "The vales redoubled their moans to the hills, and they [the hills] redoubled their moans [in turn] to heaven."? But the word order encourages an initial reading in which "they," parallel to "Their" in the previous line both grammatically and spatially, seems to refer to the slaughtered saints themselves.? It is as though these victims of massacre are raised to heaven so abruptly and efficiently that they don't even need a verb to get there.? Among modern American poets, one who seems to me to have an equivalent level of syntactic tightness is Zukofsky.? Among contemporary poets, it's tougher to say?the "strong line" is not exactly something that's fashionable to hold up as an ideal in an experimental context.? If I were pressed, however, to suggest candidates, I might point toward Scalapino ... that angular, parsing-resistant toughness that nevertheless opens out onto polysemic prospects. ************ From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Apr 24 09:09:47 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:09:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] fwd -- Announcing VeRT #8 = Oil War/Empire Issue -- Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030424080840.011b0598@mail.ilstu.edu> [http://www.litvert.com] Not to be found in stores anywhere ? _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Apr 24 12:00:33 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:00:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Media Person Reviews Helen of Troy In-Reply-To: <1051187607.3ea7d997de0f5@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> References: <3EA7A01D.28142.122D52@localhost> Message-ID: <3EA7D1E1.11385.D49945@localhost> Heroes and Eros Lewis Grossberger (http://www.media-person.com) The timing was perfect. Just as the Iraq War ended, the Trojan War started. USA network threw Helen of Troy into the breach and Media Person, as always, was there watching so you were free to do other things, like watch Mr. Personality with Monica Lewinsky. Now MP will recap, proving that you can go Homer again. Ironically, though occurring thousands of years and miles away from Iraq and fought with disparate technology, the Trojan War had no parallels to it whatever. This made the miniseries even more resonant and poignant for modern viewers. Better yet, it was full of ancient celebrities, many of whom have had plays, poems or Greek restaurants named after them, such as Agamemnon, Achilles, Clytemnestra, Cassandra, Odysseus, Zorba the Greek, Jimmy the Greek, Ajax the Foaming Cleanser, Paris of Troy and Plaster of Paris. All of them, of course, come to a tragic end, which is always what makes the ancient Greeks such a joy to spend time with. But in this version, the story is centered on Helen, who is so beautiful it has to be spelled beeyooteefull. This is because she was the daughter of Zeus, king of the gods, who disguised himself as a swan and raped Helen's mother, Leda, wife of King Tyndareus of Sparta. At least that's what Leda told Tyndareus. "Your spirit, it makes men weak," Helen is informed early on. More to the point, her butt, it makes men crazy. As a girl, she is kidnapped by Theseus, king of Athens, who wants to some day be the groom at her big fat Greek wedding. But when the Spartans show up, he is persuaded to let her go by a very convincing sword, thrust with precise Aristotelian logic into his large intestine. Back home, Helen is married off to Menelaus, geekiest of the Greeks. Though he is king of Mycenae, Menelaus is dominated by his evil brother Agamemnon, who is High King of the Greeks and CEO of Greeks Bearing Gifts Inc., the leading manufacturer of wooden horses and other action toys for the terminally gullible. To show off his bride's legendary booty sorry, beauty, Menelaus makes Helen walk naked among the assembled kings of Greece. They politely pretend not to look, except for Decrepites, the most ancient of the Greeks who, coming in late, exclaims, "Whoa! If I knew there was gonna be topless dancers, I would've got here early." At this point, who should show up but Paris, a prince of a fellow from Troy, come to Mycenae on a peace mission. It seems that Agamemnon lusts to possess the wealth of Troy, which he recently learned is not some hick town in Upstate New York near Albany as he had thought but a big upscale city only six months away by trireme, assuming you have the new model with the power oarsmen. When Paris lays eyes on Helen's exquisite, um, face, you can forget about any peace treaties. Helen is also much taken with Paris -- in fact, she's taken home with Paris. Oh, that impetuous Helen. She could have had any man with mettle in the Iron Age but she remembered the wise words of Bob the Oracle, who once told her: ???If you're going to have sex, always use a Trojan. Also, she'd heard Paris was beautiful in the Fall. Or that Troy would fall in the Spring. Or something. All those sheep entrails get confusing after a while. Anyway, the two lovebirds elope to Paris's hometown, where Helen legally changes her last name from Of Sparta to Of Troy. This makes everyone happy because now they can have a rousing, heroic war with glory for the valorous and rape, looting and binge drinking for the slightly less valorous. So here come the Greeks on the wine-dark sea (Merlot, it is now believed by historians). Troy is besieged. Paris's spacey sister, Cassandra, freaks out because she knew all this aggravation could've been easily be prevented by killing Paris and slipping Zeus a few drachma. But nobody listens because she's a soothsayer whose sayings are never soothing. Next thing you know, ten years have passed and the war is still dragging on. Achilles kills Hector, champion of the Trojans. Paris kills Achilles by sticking a javelin in his heel, which turns out to be his Achilles heel. Someone kills Paris. (Media Person isn't sure whom; he had to go to the bathroom.) Resorting to trickery, the Greeks pretend to sail away and leave their best wooden horse behind. All teak. Unbelievably, the Trojans fall for the old gag. What a bunch of morons. They all die. Almost everyone dies except Helen. But she has learned a valuable lesson, one she will remember for the rest of her life: Never hang around for the last act of a Greek tragedy, especially if you're one of the leads. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Apr 24 07:01:34 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 07:01:34 -0400 Subject: ENOUGH: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia at the NEA References: <3EA68847.2094DEF9@earthlink.net> <5.1.1.6.0.20030424000204.012afdb0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <000201c30a9a$a0601a80$cfacfea9@j1c1k6> > Just FYI, Marcus Bales was just last week kicked off PoetryEtc for > precisely this sin he here describes, failing to talk about poetry. Oh, > yeah, and his ad hominem attacks against list members. I wonder how he rationalizes that. I'll bet I could stay on PoetryEtc without getting kicked off. I do think he was talking about poetry in the thread with me. Obviously, we were both expressing negative emotions about the other, as well. --Bob G. From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu Apr 24 21:44:37 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:44:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Tupelo Press Book Launch - NYC Tomorrow! Message-ID: <90.36055cd2.2bd9ed05@aol.com> Book Launch Party David Hernandez/Aimee Nezhukumatathil Double Authors/Double Fun!! Please Join Tupelo Press on the occasion of the publication of Miracle Fruit by Aimee Nezhukumatathil A House Waiting For Music by David Hernandez Friday, April 25th (6 p.m. - 9 p.m.) Paul Sharpe Contemporary Art 86 Walker Street, NYC 1 block below Canal between B'way & Lafayett exotic appetizers cranky elevator no charge for either -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Apr 24 22:18:05 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:18:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Media Person Reviews Helen of Troy Message-ID: In a message dated 4/24/2003 10:56:22 AM Central Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > Heroes and Eros > Lewis Grossberger > (http://www.media-person.com) > > The timing was perfect. Just as the Iraq War ended, the Trojan War > started. USA network threw Helen of Troy into the breach and Media > Person, as always, was there watching so you were free to do other > things, like watch Mr. Personality with Monica Lewinsky. Now MP will > recap, proving that you can go Homer again. > > Ironically, though occurring thousands of years and miles away from > Iraq and fought with disparate technology, the Trojan War had no > parallels to it whatever. This made the miniseries even more resonant > and poignant for modern viewers. Better yet, it was full of ancient > celebrities, many of whom have had plays, poems or Greek restaurants > named after them, such as Agamemnon, Achilles, Clytemnestra, > Cassandra, Odysseus, Zorba the Greek, Jimmy the Greek, Ajax the > Foaming Cleanser, Paris of Troy and Plaster of Paris. > > All of them, of course, come to a tragic end, which is always what > makes the ancient Greeks such a joy to spend time with. But in this > version, the story is centered on Helen, who is so beautiful it has > to be spelled beeyooteefull. This is because she was the daughter of > Zeus, king of the gods, who disguised himself as a swan and raped > Helen's mother, Leda, wife of King Tyndareus of Sparta. At least > that's what Leda told Tyndareus. > > "Your spirit, it makes men weak," Helen is informed early on. More to > the point, her butt, it makes men crazy. As a girl, she is kidnapped > by Theseus, king of Athens, who wants to some day be the groom at her > big fat Greek wedding. But when the Spartans show up, he is persuaded > to let her go by a very convincing sword, thrust with precise > Aristotelian logic into his large intestine. > > Back home, Helen is married off to Menelaus, geekiest of the Greeks. > Though he is king of Mycenae, Menelaus is dominated by his evil > brother Agamemnon, who is High King of the Greeks and CEO of Greeks > Bearing Gifts Inc., the leading manufacturer of wooden horses and > other action toys for the terminally gullible. To show off his > bride's legendary booty ? sorry, beauty, Menelaus makes Helen walk > naked among the assembled kings of Greece. They politely pretend not > to look, except for Decrepites, the most ancient of the Greeks who, > coming in late, exclaims, "Whoa! If I knew there was gonna be topless > dancers, I would've got here early." > > At this point, who should show up but Paris, a prince of a fellow > from Troy, come to Mycenae on a peace mission. It seems that > Agamemnon lusts to possess the wealth of Troy, which he recently > learned is not some hick town in Upstate New York near Albany as he > had thought but a big upscale city only six months away by trireme, > assuming you have the new model with the power oarsmen. When Paris > lays eyes on Helen's exquisite, um, face, you can forget about any > peace treaties. > > Helen is also much taken with Paris -- in fact, she's taken home with > Paris. Oh, that impetuous Helen. She could have had any man with > mettle in the Iron Age but she remembered the wise words of Bob the > Oracle, who once told her: ???If you're going to have sex, always use > a Trojan. Also, she'd heard Paris was beautiful in the Fall. Or that > Troy would fall in the Spring. Or something. All those sheep entrails > get confusing after a while. Anyway, the two lovebirds elope to > Paris's hometown, where Helen legally changes her last name from Of > Sparta to Of Troy. This makes everyone happy because now they can > have a rousing, heroic war with glory for the valorous and rape, > looting and binge drinking for the slightly less valorous. > > So here come the Greeks on the wine-dark sea (Merlot, it is now > believed by historians). Troy is besieged. Paris's spacey sister, > Cassandra, freaks out because she knew all this aggravation could've > been easily be prevented by killing Paris and slipping Zeus a few > drachma. But nobody listens because she's a soothsayer whose sayings > are never soothing. > > Next thing you know, ten years have passed and the war is still > dragging on. Achilles kills Hector, champion of the Trojans. Paris > kills Achilles by sticking a javelin in his heel, which turns out to > be his Achilles heel. Someone kills Paris. (Media Person isn't sure > whom; he had to go to the bathroom.) Resorting to trickery, the > Greeks pretend to sail away and leave their best wooden horse behind. > All teak. Unbelievably, the Trojans fall for the old gag. What a > bunch of morons. They all die. Almost everyone dies except Helen. But > she has learned a valuable lesson, one she will remember for the rest > of her life: Never hang around for the last act of a Greek tragedy, > especially if you're one of the leads. > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > An accurate synopsis, from what I could bear to watch, but Paris did it with an arrow (not a javelin), shot while rolling out of the way of Stone-Cold Steve Achilles's chariot. It wasn't quite as stirring as made-for-tv The Odyssey, which had Bernadette Peters playing Circe (were they trying to make some point about why she was so alluring to Odysseus?). And where was Mel Gibson when we needed him? Where are the Steve Reeveses (or Rosanna Podestas) of yesteryear? Hey, this is great! We're talking about poetry again! C'mon back, everybody! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ron.silliman at verizon.net Fri Apr 25 09:31:29 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:31:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Babelfish trans of Habib Tengour Message-ID: <000001c30b2e$ff365da0$7670ed41@Dell> The second issue of Pores (http://www.bbk.ac.uk/pores/) is simply tremendous. Here is the Babelfish translation of Habib Tengour's Operation Binoculars, Ron ------------------------------------------------------ Operation binoculars The shortly after September 11, I should have awaked me American. The metamorphosis did not have anything of surprising. It arrived! In Paris. In Copenhagen. In Ankara... Alchemy of the loan to be carried. But me? To find me in my bed, similar with the day before, had what to worry the neighbors. I touched myself. What arrives? What arrives to us? However, I looked at television. Like everyone. I did not take down a settee. Like everyone. And like everyone, I did not believe my eyes of them. Impossible! Impossible! The film passed and passed by again. Without stop. The advertising page jumped. Deferred series. Not question of fiction. Documentary incredible. INOUI! It is the direct one. In my agitated sleep, it passed to the idle. The two binoculars subsided on my chest. I started. I relit television. That started again. By interval, the camera angle changed. I was sounded by the catastrophe. The images ate me the glance. Diabolic puffs raised me the heart. What arrives to me? I test difficulties of finding the formula for saying what occurs. Analyses abound. With carries part. The words do not miss. And of the neologisms. The newspapers provide us each day of it. The metamorphosis developed. And me? Despite everything my efforts and a goodwill with the top of any suspicion. But perhaps had I unconscious reserves to cooperate. That requires a thorough examination. The third day, I p?t? leads. Name of God! My cranium bursts. Inside, it is a pulp. It is necessary that that ceases! Move yourself! I trifouill? the meter with a nail-clippers. Clac! Roasted the cathode ray tube. I rub the hands. I did not metamorphose myself but I acquired mischievousness. It is perhaps frustration not to be American like everyone. That taps me. The pile of newspapers to the dustbin. I would never have time to read... What a relief! I became insane. To bind. As this character of Gogol which loses its nose while crossing the street. Fortunately, I had a strong cold. A respite... - Now that the tele one is ruined, you are satisfied! me engueule it. With what that does advance you? If you are not rotten to even make the share of the things!... I warn you: you repair it or you buy another of them! And fissa! ... The lexicon is treacherous... One can say what one wants. But when you do not awake like everyone, there is what to be alarmed. It is much more serious. The neighbor of stage does not say any more hello. They all are there in front of, to await the elevator; and you, you take the backstairs. What changed? How to know? You broke the tele one... There is average, the radio functions. The emissions are more intelligent. The voice does not puff out the brain like the image. I calm myself. I do not include/understand what is told. It is not with me that one speaks. Return to me the words of a reader: "It is your language. But you do not write the language of yours. In addition, you live outside! How thus think you of contributing to an unspecified national avant-garde?" A little brutal, hypocritical reader ... "the avant-garde, told me If Nacer, these were six gray sheep that one renewed with each crossing of the Maurice line. Bigeard had discovered the trick. During the operation binoculars, it sent shepherds as a scout systematically. "... I often thought of this thin herd. No monument celebrates their sacrifice with the fatherland. Very early, this anecdote sowed suspicion in my spirit. However, I made the barricades! It is Stratis the sailor who saved me drowning. It trailed me with a bar of the Bastille. To speak, one is better. The salted almonds untie the language. Of goal in white: "Then? Does the policy, that really interest you?... The praxis? Of course! But this deserted policy public places. The ra? makes fury. Drop all that. You are conspicuous. And a man of the past! You, you do not require that clogged companions attach you to a mast to listen to the song of the sirens... By bits. Glanant per Ci. Jumping by there. Advancing straight. Turning over me. Forking. Fragmentation of the thought. That turns in round. "This sudden passion is equivocal", said Kateb. With Malek, we looked it with recognition. Something in the intonation. We were alone to seize the nuance. That put balsam in the heart to us. But here is an inaccessible event. I did not find words to transmit it. Not facts. In oneself, without interest. But magic of the situation. Kateb, if worthy... _ this order me ravit. Thank you, unknown friends, to have made me sign. Thank you in you, Pierre, to have communicated my address... It said in the mouth of the wolf . Eh, well? Where is the need? It is always a question of form. S?nac, cut out holes in its books to him. "With time, the world, one carries it inside oneself. One has very few words to make fly." I represent our discussion. Because the body was not there any more. The revolution abhorred its stripped plaster boards of management. Which fault made voiceless our following days? I learned how to work. With me to conceal. The poet must be erased. Not to choke the poem. What arrives? One spends time to see it. More one supplement to realize some. Baghdad was shaven. Grenade fell. And Jerusalem ? The dates run up against the wickets. Rotted pot of the memory... Since the beginning, the Arabs remember a radiant future hopelessly. To two range of arc. This great nation resulting from the son of the maidservant is made type on the fingers. And that lasts. Is this genetic? How all that programmed is? Too much, it too is! The friends die in a number. Also those die which I do not know. To funerals, the faithful ones follow the procession in cash. Far from the world. Progressively, their number is reduced. They train a small family. With the variation, the corner of the street. One serves a tea or a coffee with the choice to them. They take some dates. There is always to tell the same stories thousand times told. ... "the time of the Arabs..." sighed Emile. Habib Tengour The Kremlin Bic?tre August 2002 From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Apr 25 11:40:25 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:40:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] babelfish trans of George Herbert's "The Collar" Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030425103654.012c1490@mail.ilstu.edu> [English to German to French to English] The Collar -- by George Herbert I the advice struck and cried, no more. I abroad. What? Sigh and pin of I never? My lines and lives are free; freely as road! release as large wind therefore like the shop. Is it that I must always be in the clothes? Don't I have harvest, but a thorn? Let not restore my blood and which I lost with the cordial fruit. Reliably there was wine before my sighs dried it: it was there from the corn before my tears drowned it. Is the year lost only at me? Don't I have departments to crown? No flowers, no merry country? all blew? Did everything waste? Not also my heart: but there are fruit and branches to be handed around. The whole age sighs and winds accumulate again on double delights: leave the cold conflict from what is not adapted. The rope of the sand places a cage on it, which the small thoughts made and made at the good cable of thee, in order to force upon and draw on thy lawn while thou didst from the eye flashes and wouldst there be blinded, Far; Seizing attention: I abroad. The calls in death's brain steer themselves there: fasten thy fears! They serve themselves over and over for their own, and its, need: its load earns. But, while I developed and my rickets-having savages smile at each word, and so I of the thoughts was brought a calling: a child! And I answered, belonging, "My gentleman." _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From luap at mallasch.com Fri Apr 25 11:57:15 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:57:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] babelfish trans of George Herbert's "The Collar" In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030425103654.012c1490@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the smile. I've spent many a happy hour translating Rimbaud to and from various languages. I offer this ditty of my own: das Kaninchen le lapin se trouve parmi les etrangers les brins d'herbe ne murmure pas son nom un oiseau vole par-dessus son tete Il taquine les nuages et respire le soleil oreilles a dresse, sentir tous les moments le lapin retourne a la foret... the rabbit is among the foreigners the bits of grass does not murmur its name a bird flies over its tete It teases the clouds and breathes the sun ears A draws up, to feel every moment the rabbit turns over has the drill... el conejo est entre los extranjeros que no lo hacen los pedacitos de la hierba murmur su nombre un pjaro vuela sobre su tete embroma las nubes y respira los odos A del sol elabora, para sentir cada momento el conejo vuelca tiene el taladro... the rabbit is among the foreigners the bits of grass does not murmur its name to bird flies to over its tete It teases the clouds and breathes the sun ears To draws up, to feel every moment the rabbit turns to over there are the drill... il coniglio fra gli stranieri che le punte di erba non murmur il relativo nome un uccello vola sopra il relativo tete prende in giro le nubi e respira gli orecchi A del sole elabora, per ritenere ogni momento il coniglio si gira ha il trivello... the rabbit is among the foreigners the bits of grass you donate not murmur its name bird flies to over its tete It teases the clouds and breathes the sun ears draws up, you feel every moment the rabbit turns to over has the drill... -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > [English to German to French to English] > > The Collar > -- by George Herbert > > I the advice struck and cried, no more. > I abroad. > What? Sigh and pin of I never? > My lines and lives are free; freely as road! > release as large wind therefore like the shop. > Is it that I must always be in the clothes? > Don't I have harvest, but a thorn? > Let not restore my blood and > which I lost with the cordial fruit. > Reliably there was wine > before my sighs dried it: it was there from the corn > before my tears drowned it. > Is the year lost only at me? > Don't I have departments to crown? > No flowers, no merry country? all blew? > Did everything waste? > Not also my heart: but there are fruit > and branches to be handed around. > The whole age sighs and winds accumulate > again on double delights: leave the cold conflict > from what is not adapted. > The rope of the sand places a cage on it, > which the small thoughts made and made at the good cable of thee, > in order to force upon and draw on thy lawn > while thou didst from the eye flashes and wouldst there be blinded, > Far; Seizing attention: > I abroad. > The calls in death's brain steer themselves there: fasten thy fears! > They serve themselves over and over for their own, and its, need: > its load earns. > But, while I developed and my rickets-having savages smile > at each word, > and so I of the thoughts was brought a calling: a child! > And I answered, belonging, > "My gentleman." > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things > they misname empire; and where they make > a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus > > > Gabriel Gudding > Department of English > Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790 > office 309.438.5284 > > http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Apr 25 12:04:38 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:04:38 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] babelfish trans of George Herbert's "The Collar" Message-ID: <197.19504626.2bdab696@cs.com> The Bard of ViaVoice If you are like most people, you want to start using ViaVoice right away. But before you do, there are a few important things you should understand. Investing a few minutes of your time now will make your use of ViaVoice much more productive and enjoyable. Some errors occur when ViaVoice does not interpret your speech correctly. -- IBM Voice-Recognition Software Message Shell like comparing the to a summer's day? For more locally and more temperate Rain rough winds to shake the normally would some day Care and summers least double to short of the park. Some time to the idea of heaven shines Off in this is cooled complexion deep Or in every fair from where some time It's a chance to majors chained to a chorus by a turn in Summer people not plead Or lose the session where the homeless. Marshall death threat of wonders and cheap When the neutral lines to time rule was So long as we can move its currency Stolen was this disputes like to be. Win in disgrace with fortune and enzymes Happen all alone knew we can stay And troubles death of a man with my food crises And look upon myself and for small way You'll wishing my soul to one more mission hold Featured like film like filled with friends possess Desiring this man's heart and the act as though With one eye moves and jewelry county police Then and the spots of myself almost to spies in Happily for a comb the been my state Like it will mark a break the day rise in From anny.ballardini at tin.it Fri Apr 25 12:08:26 2003 From: anny.ballardini at tin.it (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:08:26 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] babelfish trans of George Herbert's "The Collar" References: Message-ID: <008c01c30b44$e7de67e0$661c2dd5@anny> hi P.Mallasch, I think the work is superb, but I do not agree with the Italian version, for example, "il coniglio si gira ha il trivello" does not mean anything and it is difficult to understand the use of that "il relativo The relative name a bird flies over the relative tete teases it is just about the same in Italian and maybe this is what you meant...? and you insert that capital "A" have no idea. Take care, anny ----- Original Message ----- From: "K. Paul Mallasch" To: Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] babelfish trans of George Herbert's "The Collar" > Thanks for the smile. I've spent many a happy hour translating Rimbaud to > and from various languages. I offer this ditty of my own: > > > das Kaninchen > > le lapin se trouve parmi les etrangers > les brins d'herbe ne murmure pas son nom > un oiseau vole par-dessus son tete > Il taquine les nuages et respire le soleil > oreilles a dresse, sentir tous les moments > le lapin retourne a la foret... > > the rabbit is among the foreigners > the bits of grass does not murmur its name > a bird flies over its tete > It teases the clouds and breathes > the sun ears A draws up, > to feel every moment > the rabbit turns over > has the drill... > > el conejo est entre los extranjeros > que no lo hacen los pedacitos de la > hierba murmur su nombre un pjaro vuela > sobre su tete embroma las nubes y respira > los odos A del sol elabora, para sentir > cada momento el conejo vuelca tiene el taladro... > > the rabbit is among the foreigners > the bits of grass does not murmur > its name to bird flies to over its tete > It teases the clouds and breathes > the sun ears To draws up, > to feel every moment > the rabbit turns to > over there are the drill... > > il coniglio fra gli stranieri > che le punte di erba non murmur > il relativo nome un uccello vola > sopra il relativo tete prende > in giro le nubi e respira gli > orecchi A del sole elabora, > per ritenere ogni momento > il coniglio si gira ha il trivello... > > the rabbit is among the foreigners > the bits of grass you donate > not murmur its name > bird flies to over its tete > It teases the clouds and breathes the sun ears draws up, > you feel every moment > the rabbit turns to > over has the drill... > > > > -kpaul > mallasch.com/mug/ > > On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > > [English to German to French to English] > > > > The Collar > > -- by George Herbert > > > > I the advice struck and cried, no more. > > I abroad. > > What? Sigh and pin of I never? > > My lines and lives are free; freely as road! > > release as large wind therefore like the shop. > > Is it that I must always be in the clothes? > > Don't I have harvest, but a thorn? > > Let not restore my blood and > > which I lost with the cordial fruit. > > Reliably there was wine > > before my sighs dried it: it was there from the corn > > before my tears drowned it. > > Is the year lost only at me? > > Don't I have departments to crown? > > No flowers, no merry country? all blew? > > Did everything waste? > > Not also my heart: but there are fruit > > and branches to be handed around. > > The whole age sighs and winds accumulate > > again on double delights: leave the cold conflict > > from what is not adapted. > > The rope of the sand places a cage on it, > > which the small thoughts made and made at the good cable of thee, > > in order to force upon and draw on thy lawn > > while thou didst from the eye flashes and wouldst there be blinded, > > Far; Seizing attention: > > I abroad. > > The calls in death's brain steer themselves there: fasten thy fears! > > They serve themselves over and over for their own, and its, need: > > its load earns. > > But, while I developed and my rickets-having savages smile > > at each word, > > and so I of the thoughts was brought a calling: a child! > > And I answered, belonging, > > "My gentleman." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things > > they misname empire; and where they make > > a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus > > > > > > Gabriel Gudding > > Department of English > > Illinois State University > > Normal, IL 61790 > > office 309.438.5284 > > > > http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html > > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From poemlady at cox.net Sat Apr 26 00:11:32 2003 From: poemlady at cox.net (Audrey Friedman) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:11:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Levine References: Message-ID: <001701c30ba9$ebd92140$f0430e44@Zoom> Levine's styleFor all the Levine lovers out there: The new Writers' Chronicle (AWP) just arrived today, and there is a long interview of Phil Levine. I hearing "his voice" in the interviews, and comparing to the "voice" in his poetry. Enjoy. Audrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Apr 26 17:04:23 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:04:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hayden Message-ID: In a message dated 4/21/03 5:40:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > Rod McKuen is a real poet. Read my taxonomy and find out why. > > > > Clearly we mean different things by "real." Read Rod McKuen and find out > why > > :) > > > > c > > Sure. I mean by "poet" one who composes poetry. You mean by "poet," one > who composes poetry that you respect. I'm not a fan of McKuen's, but he did > write a few poems that are as good as anything I've seen by Hayden, which is > not much. > (Don't ask me to name them. All I remember is that one was about a cat, > another had a phrasing I liked.) Bob, no way. It seems you're saying that the best thing McKuen ever wrote is as good as the poorest Hayden ever penned. What kind of standard is that? Your "Anything I've seen," makes me think you've not seen enough of Hayden...or too much of McKuen. If it wouldn't be so excruciating on count of the latter, I'd dare you to compare oeuvres. Finnegan From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 26 18:29:21 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:29:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: McKuen was once reportedly the best selling poet in the U.S. Don't know what his status is now, and I wonder what happened to him: as far as I know he is alive, but I never notice new books appearing, and most of the books listed on Amazon seem to be 20 years or more old, many out of print. Maybe he's just been walking on the beach somewhere with his sheep dog for a couple decades. Once, at least 20 years ago in fact, I sat down & read through all of McKuen's works to date, just so I could avoid being one of those people who judged a poet on the basis of a couple poems. It didn't take long. His name was so synonymous with bad poetry that I was honestly ready to be surprised. There had to be *some* good stuff, I thought. But I have to say that reading him in bulk didn't produce any revelation: he truly *is* a remarkably bad poet. And what's worse, he's not even interestingly bad, like Julia A. Moore. Among McKuen's many faults as a poet is a complete lack of humor, even inadvertent. I suppose, among the celebrities and other para-poets, McKuen's quality is somewhere in the mid-range. Not always quite so bad as Jimmy Stewart, say, but never as good as Richard Thomas (John-Boy on the old Waltons TV show). And not even close to as good as Jewel. To compare McKuen with Robert Hayden would be like comparing Sarah Vaughan with your local karaoke singer covering Tony Orlando. I mean, you *could*, but. . . . Anyway, with apologies in advance to Jim Finnegan-- The Summertime Of Days In the summertime of days a man is nothing more than a tear in some old year that was cast aside by God. In the summertime of days we are as we must be shadows all on our way to fall if not eternity. And if we must look for heaven then heaven must surely be in arms that are warm and smiles if they tender be. In the summertime of days I'll ask for nothing more than a face and a quiet place that was cast aside by God. --Rod McKuen ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > Bob, no way. It seems you're saying that the best thing > McKuen ever wrote is as good as the poorest Hayden ever penned. > What kind of standard is that? Your "Anything I've seen," makes > me think you've not seen enough of Hayden...or too much of McKuen. > If it wouldn't be so excruciating on count of the latter, > I'd dare you to compare oeuvres. > Finnegan From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sat Apr 26 18:52:59 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:52:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030426185259.005737@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> David, you have no idea how painful that is. I was the first person in my working-class family to go to college, grew up with no books in the house except the ones I hoarded. After I disappeared off to Cornell and then FAWC in Provincetown, my mother, who was beginning to suspect this poetry stuff wasn't going to go away, made a rare effort at reconciliation and bought and read all of Rod McKuen. She concluded of course that I was a snob, because she could *understand* Rod McKuen's poetry. I've never been able to hear his name without grief, and actually reading one of the ?texts? is unspeakable. I'll forgive you this once, but please don't do it again. Wendy David Graham wrote: >McKuen was once reportedly the best selling poet in the U.S. Don't know >what his status is now, and I wonder what happened to him: as far as I know >he is alive, but I never notice new books appearing, and most of the books >listed on Amazon seem to be 20 years or more old, many out of print. > >Maybe he's just been walking on the beach somewhere with his sheep dog for a >couple decades. > >Once, at least 20 years ago in fact, I sat down & read through all of >McKuen's works to date, just so I could avoid being one of those people who >judged a poet on the basis of a couple poems. It didn't take long. His >name was so synonymous with bad poetry that I was honestly ready to be >surprised. There had to be *some* good stuff, I thought. > >But I have to say that reading him in bulk didn't produce any revelation: >he truly *is* a remarkably bad poet. And what's worse, he's not even >interestingly bad, like Julia A. Moore. Among McKuen's many faults as a >poet is a complete lack of humor, even inadvertent. > >I suppose, among the celebrities and other para-poets, McKuen's quality is >somewhere in the mid-range. Not always quite so bad as Jimmy Stewart, say, >but never as good as Richard Thomas (John-Boy on the old Waltons TV show). >And not even close to as good as Jewel. > >To compare McKuen with Robert Hayden would be like comparing Sarah Vaughan >with your local karaoke singer covering Tony Orlando. I mean, you *could*, >but. . . . > >Anyway, with apologies in advance to Jim Finnegan-- > >The Summertime Of Days > >In the summertime of days >a man is nothing more >than a tear in some old year >that was cast aside by God. > >In the summertime of days >we are as we must be >shadows all on our way to fall >if not eternity. > >And if we must look for heaven >then heaven must surely be >in arms that are warm >and smiles if they tender be. > >In the summertime of days >I'll ask for nothing more >than a face and a quiet place >that was cast aside by God. > > --Rod McKuen > >==================================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >==================================================== > >> Bob, no way. It seems you're saying that the best thing >> McKuen ever wrote is as good as the poorest Hayden ever penned. >> What kind of standard is that? Your "Anything I've seen," makes >> me think you've not seen enough of Hayden...or too much of McKuen. >> If it wouldn't be so excruciating on count of the latter, >> I'd dare you to compare oeuvres. >> Finnegan > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu The wall between where we are? and the Self is called the mind. --S. J. Bharat From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 26 19:16:21 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:16:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hayden References: Message-ID: <003201c30c49$da5a4200$66d4fea9@j1c1k6> > > Sure. I mean by "poet" one who composes poetry. You mean by "poet," one > > who composes poetry that you respect. I'm not a fan of McKuen's, but he > did > > write a few poems that are as good as anything I've seen by Hayden, which > is > > not much. > > (Don't ask me to name them. All I remember is that one was about a cat, > > another had a phrasing I liked.) > Bob, no way. It seems you're saying that the best thing > McKuen ever wrote is as good as the poorest Hayden ever penned. No, I'm saying I remember some poems by McKuen that are as good as any of the very few I've read by Hayden (which are undoubtedly not his poorest since I would have read them in anthologies--unless he's a much better poet than I suspect and, as a result, the anthologists prefer his poorest poems to his others). > What kind of standard is that? Your "Anything I've seen," makes > me think you've not seen enough of Hayden... Very possibly. >or too much of McKuen. > If it wouldn't be so excruciating on count of the latter, > I'd dare you to compare oeuvres. > Finnegan I read a whole book of McKuen's stuff--because a few non-literary friends doted on him, and because I felt it my obligation to do so since he WAS so popular. For some reason, I haven't felt the same way about reading Jewel's stuff. As for the most popular poet in America, Rumi, I hear a devotee of his read HIS stuff at the local poetry reading series (and think it's okay but more meditations that what I think of as . . . oops, real poetry). I'd never compare McKuen's oevre to Hayden's because I do NOT think McKuen's oevre is equal to very many poets' oevres. I was only making the point that (in my view) even McKuen has written a few okay poems--and that I'm not a fan of Hayden's. For reasons all diligent readers of new-poetry know, so I won't yet again go into them. --Bob G. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Apr 26 19:34:00 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:34:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen References: Message-ID: <005101c30c4c$51ac4cc0$66d4fea9@j1c1k6> > McKuen was once reportedly the best selling poet in the U.S. Don't know > what his status is now, and I wonder what happened to him: as far as I know > he is alive, but I never notice new books appearing, and most of the books > listed on Amazon seem to be 20 years or more old, many out of print. > > Maybe he's just been walking on the beach somewhere with his sheep dog for a > couple decades. I've always wondered about him, too. > The Summertime Of Days > > In the summertime of days > a man is nothing more > than a tear in some old year > that was cast aside by God. > > In the summertime of days > we are as we must be > shadows all on our way to fall > if not eternity. > > And if we must look for heaven > then heaven must surely be > in arms that are warm > and smiles if they tender be. > > In the summertime of days > I'll ask for nothing more > than a face and a quiet place > that was cast aside by God. > > --Rod McKuen I belong to a local poetry reading society, so listen to a lot of week-end poets' output. Maybe that's why I consider the above much better than David does. It's too saccharine. And he can't quite get aholt of his form, which is not a simple one. I don't think the "tear" image is awful though it doesn't quite work. Very few week-end poets would come up with it and almost none would echo it with the cast-away place. And he's in touch with some kind of human meaning in a way most published poets are not. I note, too, that he doesn't pile up the adjectives, the way the bad poets of the 19th century, and too many of their betters, did. --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Apr 26 19:53:23 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:53:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen Message-ID: <14b.1ea27292.2bdc75f3@cs.com> In a message dated 4/26/2003 5:29:17 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > I suppose, among the celebrities and other para-poets, McKuen's quality is > somewhere in the mid-range. Not always quite so bad as Jimmy Stewart, say, > but never as good as Richard Thomas (John-Boy on the old Waltons TV show). > And not even close to as good as Jewel. > I once gave an SCMLA paper on actor-poets, years before Jewel. Didn't mention McKuen--seemed like a moot point. Suzanne Somers wasn't too bad and Richard Thomas was pretty good. Ashbery dedicated one of his books to Thomas and his wife. On the other hand, there was Buddy Hackett . . . . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Faustina1 at aol.com Sat Apr 26 19:54:02 2003 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:54:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen Message-ID: <126.280de854.2bdc761a@aol.com> I would vote Blecch on McKuen too, and I am glad I no longer have to convince students he is not wonderful. I remember during the Vietnam war they found pro-war poems among his works and this helped my arguments. (It's not that Aggies are generally liberals, but those who are tend to find their way into my classes.) Yes, I would still rather they read McKuen than read no poetry--and for that matter, would rather they read Hallmark verse than nothing. Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Apr 26 19:55:58 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen Message-ID: <70.2d6c994b.2bdc768e@cs.com> In a message dated 4/26/2003 5:58:16 PM Central Standard Time, wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: > > David, you have no idea how painful that is. I was the first person in > my working-class family to go to college, grew up with no books in the > house except the ones I hoarded. After I disappeared off to Cornell and > then FAWC in Provincetown, my mother, who was beginning to suspect this > poetry stuff wasn't going to go away, made a rare effort at > reconciliation and bought and read all of Rod McKuen. > > She concluded of course that I was a snob, because she could *understand* > Rod McKuen's poetry. I've never been able to hear his name without > grief, and actually reading one of the ?texts? is unspeakable. I'll > forgive you this once, but please don't do it again. > > Wendy I had a similar experience. After I went off in pursuit of the MFA, my businessman Dad bought Stanyan Street and Other Sorrows, read and annotated it, and gave it to me for Christmas. He actually had pretty good taste in reading--history, biography, and Thomas Wolfe--but poetry was beyond his ken. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Sat Apr 26 20:21:56 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:21:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen Message-ID: <5767802.1051402916520.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Saturday, April 26, 2003, at 06:29PM, David Graham wrote: > >I suppose, among the celebrities and other para-poets, McKuen's quality is >somewhere in the mid-range. Not always quite so bad as Jimmy Stewart, say, Dan Chiasson, in a review at Slate of the Pope's poetry, said "Jimmy Stewart's [poetry] sounded, in places, like the T.S. Eliot of 'Burnt Norton." here's the link: http://slate.msn.com/id/2080798/ I've never read Stewart's poetry--is there any basis for such a comment? Yours in befuddlement, Michael From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Apr 26 20:51:39 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:51:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen Message-ID: In a message dated 4/26/2003 7:26:30 PM Central Standard Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: > Dan Chiasson, in a review at Slate of the Pope's poetry, said "Jimmy > Stewart's [poetry] sounded, in places, like the T.S. Eliot of 'Burnt > Norton." > > here's the link: http://slate.msn.com/id/2080798/ > > I've never read Stewart's poetry--is there any basis for such a comment? > This was a joke. Stewart's poetry consisted of a bunch of occasional light verse poems, commemorating fishing trips and vacations, etc. Even as light verse it was pretty bad, but it did sound like Jimmy Stewart. He had a poem about a dog named Bo that was so bad that it actually was pretty good--when he read it. Or perhaps Mr. Chiasson is just taking a poke at Mr. Eliot--I must admit that I've never been much of a fan of the Four Quartets, which have always sounded to me like a once-brilliant tenor going through the motions for a greatest hits album. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 26 21:32:53 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:32:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, Wendy B. didn't say I couldn't post any Jimmy Stewart poems! Here's the dog poem Sam mentioned. Read & weep: Beau by Jimmy Stewart He never came to me when I would call Unless I had a tennis ball, Or he felt like it, But mostly he didn't come at all. When he was young He never learned to heel Or sit or stay, He did things his way. Discipline was not his bag But when you were with him things sure didn't drag. He'd dig up a rosebush just to spite me, And when I'd grab him, he'd turn and bite me. He bit lots of folks from day to day, The delivery boy was his favorite prey. The gas man wouldn't read our meter, He said we owned a real man-eater. He set the house on fire But the story's long to tell. Suffice it to say that he survived And the house survived as well. On the evening walks, and Gloria took him, He was always first out the door. The Old One and I brought up the rear Because our bones were sore. He would charge up the street with Mom hanging on, What a beautiful pair they were! And if it was still light and the tourists were out, They created a bit of a stir. But every once in a while, he would stop in his tracks And with a frown on his face look around. It was just to make sure that the Old One was there And would follow him where he was bound. We are early-to-bedders at our house-- I guess I'm the first to retire. And as I'd leave the room he'd look at me And get up from his place by the fire. He knew where the tennis balls were upstairs, And I'd give him one for a while. He would push it under the bed with his nose And I'd fish it out with a smile. And before very long He'd tire of the ball And be asleep in his corner In no time at all. And there were nights when I'd feel him Climb upon our bed And lie between us, And I'd pat his head. And there were nights when I'd feel this stare And I'd wake up and he'd be sitting there And I reach out my hand and stroke his hair. And sometimes I'd feel him sigh and I think I know the reason why. He would wake up at night And he would have this fear Of the dark, of life, of lots of things, And he'd be glad to have me near. And now he's dead. And there are nights when I think I feel him Climb upon our bed and lie between us, And I pat his head. And there are nights when I think I feel that stare And I reach out my hand to stroke his hair, But he's not there. Oh, how I wish that wasn't so, I'll always love a dog named Beau. *Jimmy Stewart and His Poems* ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== Stewart's poetry consisted of a bunch of occasional light verse poems, commemorating fishing trips and vacations, etc. Even as light verse it was pretty bad, but it did sound like Jimmy Stewart. He had a poem about a dog named Bo that was so bad that it actually was pretty good--when he read it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sat Apr 26 22:27:12 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 22:27:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030426222712.003310@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> David Graham wrote: >Well, Wendy B. didn't say I couldn't post any Jimmy Stewart poems! I didn't forbid, David. I begged. There's a difference. Wendy ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu The wall between where we are? and the Self is called the mind. --S. J. Bharat From Faustina1 at aol.com Sat Apr 26 22:33:14 2003 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 22:33:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen Message-ID: <1cd.837a985.2bdc9b6a@aol.com> "He'd dig up a rosebush just to spite me, And when I'd grab him, he'd turn and bite me." I greatly prefer this to McKuen! How many rhymes can one think of for "bite me"? There is, of course, "indict me." Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Apr 26 23:04:06 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 22:04:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen In-Reply-To: <20030426222712.003310@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: > David Graham wrote: >> Well, Wendy B. didn't say I couldn't post any Jimmy Stewart poems! > > I didn't forbid, David. I begged. There's a difference. > > Wendy True enough, they differ, you might say, as syllable from sound. Or, as the poems of Rod McKuen differ from those of Jimmy Stewart. Be careful or I'll post some Leonard Nimoy next. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From chris at chrislott.org Sat Apr 26 23:29:43 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:29:43 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen References: <005101c30c4c$51ac4cc0$66d4fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <00c101c30c6d$425c7530$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Saturday, April 26, 2003 3:34 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > And he's in touch with some kind of human > meaning in a way most published poets are not. Kind of the same way a high school boy is more in touch with his body because of his addiction to masturbation? You really need to read a better class of journal or something. I doubt I could find a single worse poem in almost any issue of any poetry publication I normally read. c -- Chris Lott From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Apr 27 01:57:34 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 01:57:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen Message-ID: In a message dated 4/26/2003 8:33:46 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > Well, Wendy B. didn't say I couldn't post any Jimmy Stewart poems! > > Here's the dog poem Sam mentioned. Read &weep: Aw shoot. And I have a golden retriever named Beaux. We should forgive Jimmy Stewart his poems as partial payment for all the other great moments he gave us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 27 06:15:16 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 06:15:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen References: <005101c30c4c$51ac4cc0$66d4fea9@j1c1k6> <00c101c30c6d$425c7530$6401a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <006701c30ca5$e7fd9a40$0d76fea9@j1c1k6> > > And he's in touch with some kind of human > > meaning in a way most published poets are not. > > Kind of the same way a high school boy is more in touch with his body > because of his addiction to masturbation? You really need to read a better > class of journal or something. I doubt I could find a single worse poem in > almost any issue of any poetry publication I normally read. > -- > Chris Lott Find one that uses a metaphorical expression as interesting as "a man is nothing more than a tear in some old year that was cast aside by God." Yes, his bringing in God is a problem for people as unreligious as I, and the notion of oh how small us'ns iz, is a cliche and--in my view--stupid. But think about a tear in a discarded, very insignificant object--that is, a tiny absence in something discarded--as a metaphor for man; then continue, and recognize that a year is immaterial, so a tear in it becomes something of the second-order of non-existence. I think the interesting thing about McKuen's and Stewart's poetry is that they (in my view) have poor taste, so they can't exploit what they do well, or prevent what they don't. The Stewert poem starts off not bad but takes swerves into the pretty bad. It's fun, though, albeit apparently not for the Truly Superior--some of whom, like Chris here (but not all the time, I believe) can't allow poets like McKuen, or their audiences, to be given any credit at all. --Bob G. From ron.silliman at verizon.net Sun Apr 27 09:31:34 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:31:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen vs Jewel In-Reply-To: <200304270131.h3R1V3ST004906@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000001c30cc1$56819460$7a74ed41@Dell> McKuen is indeed walking his sheepdog on the beach these days. He was a part of the Berkeley Renaissance scene in the 1940s & early '50s that included Duncan, Blaser, Spicer, Madeline Gleason, Kenneth Rexroth & even Philip K Dick. Like Dick, his own writing took him elsewhere & he did have that curious public career. Jewel, whose singing I frankly prefer to McKuen's, however, has no connection to a literary sense or scene. Her poetry is more akin to Leonard Nimoy's book, I am Not Spock. Or the poems of the late Kansas City baseball player Dan Quisenberry (whose name I may have misspelled) Ron From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Apr 27 10:43:26 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 10:43:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry References: Message-ID: <000601c30ccb$5ce4d1a0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Methodology My costume is so beautiful is deceptive yet I find I always cry from the cold? And no more hits and punches and unprepared thick and white with sunlight and ignites forever the blood of I feel it everywhere Men look me over on every city street. -- Ally Sheedy ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 11:04 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen > > David Graham wrote: > >> Well, Wendy B. didn't say I couldn't post any Jimmy Stewart poems! > > > > I didn't forbid, David. I begged. There's a difference. > > > > Wendy > > True enough, they differ, you might say, as syllable from sound. Or, as the > poems of Rod McKuen differ from those of Jimmy Stewart. > > Be careful or I'll post some Leonard Nimoy next. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Apr 27 10:44:13 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 10:44:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen References: Message-ID: <000a01c30ccb$78d5ae70$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 11:04 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen > > David Graham wrote: > >> Well, Wendy B. didn't say I couldn't post any Jimmy Stewart poems! > > > > I didn't forbid, David. I begged. There's a difference. > > > > Wendy > > True enough, they differ, you might say, as syllable from sound. Or, as the > poems of Rod McKuen differ from those of Jimmy Stewart. > > Be careful or I'll post some Leonard Nimoy next. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 27 11:05:01 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 08:05:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry References: <000601c30ccb$5ce4d1a0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <3EABF19C.7A01D751@earthlink.net> Had that been by Meryl Streep I would have been crushed. But, Ally Sheedy? Who cares. Tell her to wear something under those costumes. - Jim TheOldMole wrote: > > Methodology > My costume is so beautiful > is deceptive > yet I find I always cry > from the cold? > > And no more hits and punches > and unprepared > thick and white with sunlight > and ignites forever the blood of > I feel it everywhere > Men look me over on every city street. > > -- Ally Sheedy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 11:04 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen > > > > David Graham wrote: > > >> Well, Wendy B. didn't say I couldn't post any Jimmy Stewart poems! > > > > > > I didn't forbid, David. I begged. There's a difference. > > > > > > Wendy > > > > True enough, they differ, you might say, as syllable from sound. Or, as > the > > poems of Rod McKuen differ from those of Jimmy Stewart. > > > > Be careful or I'll post some Leonard Nimoy next. > > > > ==================================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > ==================================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Apr 27 11:32:46 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:32:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry References: <000601c30ccb$5ce4d1a0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3EABF19C.7A01D751@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006c01c30cd2$40bc3ed0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> It gets better. It turns out that I was looking at an Ally Sheedy parody site. The poem was Sheedy's in a sense...but...well, here's the whole story. Methodology: This poem consists of one random line from each page of Ally Sheedy's Yesterday I Saw the Sun (Summit Books, New York, 1991) between pages 19 and 140, inclusive. Titles counted as line number 1; if there were too few lines on a given page, the random number was taken modulo the number of lines. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry > Had that been by Meryl Streep I would have been crushed. But, Ally > Sheedy? Who cares. Tell her to wear something under those costumes. > > - Jim > > TheOldMole wrote: > > > > Methodology > > My costume is so beautiful > > is deceptive > > yet I find I always cry > > from the cold? > > > > And no more hits and punches > > and unprepared > > thick and white with sunlight > > and ignites forever the blood of > > I feel it everywhere > > Men look me over on every city street. > > > > -- Ally Sheedy > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Graham" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 11:04 PM > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen > > > > > > David Graham wrote: > > > >> Well, Wendy B. didn't say I couldn't post any Jimmy Stewart poems! > > > > > > > > I didn't forbid, David. I begged. There's a difference. > > > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > True enough, they differ, you might say, as syllable from sound. Or, as > > the > > > poems of Rod McKuen differ from those of Jimmy Stewart. > > > > > > Be careful or I'll post some Leonard Nimoy next. > > > > > > ==================================================== > > > David Graham > > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > Poetry Library: > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Apr 27 11:50:39 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:50:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry References: <000601c30ccb$5ce4d1a0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3EABF19C.7A01D751@earthlink.net> <006c01c30cd2$40bc3ed0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <007601c30cd4$c0bc93d0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Actually, you really need to see all of this: http://www.icir.org/kohler/z/writingthroughallysheedy.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheOldMole" To: Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry > It gets better. It turns out that I was looking at an Ally Sheedy parody > site. The poem was Sheedy's in a sense...but...well, here's the whole story. > > Methodology: This poem consists of one random line from each page of Ally > Sheedy's Yesterday I Saw the Sun (Summit Books, New York, 1991) between > pages 19 and 140, inclusive. Titles counted as line number 1; if there were > too few lines on a given page, the random number was taken modulo the number > of lines. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Cervantes" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:05 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry > > > > Had that been by Meryl Streep I would have been crushed. But, Ally > > Sheedy? Who cares. Tell her to wear something under those costumes. > > > > - Jim > > > > TheOldMole wrote: > > > > > > Methodology > > > My costume is so beautiful > > > is deceptive > > > yet I find I always cry > > > from the cold? > > > > > > And no more hits and punches > > > and unprepared > > > thick and white with sunlight > > > and ignites forever the blood of > > > I feel it everywhere > > > Men look me over on every city street. > > > > > > -- Ally Sheedy > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "David Graham" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 11:04 PM > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen > > > > > > > > David Graham wrote: > > > > >> Well, Wendy B. didn't say I couldn't post any Jimmy Stewart poems! > > > > > > > > > > I didn't forbid, David. I begged. There's a difference. > > > > > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > True enough, they differ, you might say, as syllable from sound. Or, > as > > > the > > > > poems of Rod McKuen differ from those of Jimmy Stewart. > > > > > > > > Be careful or I'll post some Leonard Nimoy next. > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > > > > David Graham > > > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > > Home Page: > > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > > Poetry Library: > > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Apr 27 11:53:39 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:53:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry References: <000601c30ccb$5ce4d1a0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3EABF19C.7A01D751@earthlink.net> <006c01c30cd2$40bc3ed0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <007a01c30cd5$2b983ab0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Sorry, folks, I can't let this go. From a review of Ally's book on Amazon: critics were prepared to pan this because it was written by a famous actress. the work, however, is honest with brillant imagery and keen insight. I have used the book in college courses and find it inspiring. ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheOldMole" To: Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry > It gets better. It turns out that I was looking at an Ally Sheedy parody > site. The poem was Sheedy's in a sense...but...well, here's the whole story. > > Methodology: This poem consists of one random line from each page of Ally > Sheedy's Yesterday I Saw the Sun (Summit Books, New York, 1991) between > pages 19 and 140, inclusive. Titles counted as line number 1; if there were > too few lines on a given page, the random number was taken modulo the number > of lines. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Cervantes" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:05 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry > > > > Had that been by Meryl Streep I would have been crushed. But, Ally > > Sheedy? Who cares. Tell her to wear something under those costumes. > > > > - Jim > > > > TheOldMole wrote: > > > > > > Methodology > > > My costume is so beautiful > > > is deceptive > > > yet I find I always cry > > > from the cold? > > > > > > And no more hits and punches > > > and unprepared > > > thick and white with sunlight > > > and ignites forever the blood of > > > I feel it everywhere > > > Men look me over on every city street. > > > > > > -- Ally Sheedy > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "David Graham" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 11:04 PM > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen > > > > > > > > David Graham wrote: > > > > >> Well, Wendy B. didn't say I couldn't post any Jimmy Stewart poems! > > > > > > > > > > I didn't forbid, David. I begged. There's a difference. > > > > > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > True enough, they differ, you might say, as syllable from sound. Or, > as > > > the > > > > poems of Rod McKuen differ from those of Jimmy Stewart. > > > > > > > > Be careful or I'll post some Leonard Nimoy next. > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > > > > David Graham > > > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > > Home Page: > > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > > Poetry Library: > > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Apr 27 12:07:22 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:07:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen vs Jewel In-Reply-To: <000001c30cc1$56819460$7a74ed41@Dell> Message-ID: I'm not sure what if anything it means that McKuen once hung out in the vicinity of Robert Duncan, Kenneth Rexroth, and even Philip K. Dick--it certainly didn't seem to teach him much about poetry. Are you suggesting that he once had talent? Not visible to me. Or that his poems show evidence of an awareness of better stuff? Huh? What such west coast roots might have given McKuen is a very saleable public image, I suppose. He's a watered down middlebrow version of that mythical thing, a Beat hipster. His phenomenonal success had a lot to do with his denatured but exciting-to-pubescents image as a vaguely bohemian sort, lonely and anguished, walking the beach as torrents of feeling washed up at his feet, etc. And the sheep dog was a nice touch. As for his curious public career, it's probably worth mentioning that McKuen made a boatload of money as a singer/songwriter, probably a lot more cash than his awful poems earned. And in the context of pop music, I suppose his dreadful lyrics are no more painful than most (his "Jean" being the quintessential oldie that makes me turn off the radio fast, though). In my book, Leonard Nimoy is close to rock bottom in terms of celebrity poetic talent. Yes, even worse than McKuen. Even Jewel shows some flashes of occasional wit or awareness of figurative power, and she seems to have at least read some Neruda. And yes, she has a very nice voice, but unfortunately writes most of her own lyrics. At Lilith Fair once I heard her sing an old folk song and was dazzled. But Nimoy? Good heavens, it doesn't get much worse than this-- I love you not for what I want you to be But for what you are I loved you then For what you were I love you now for what you have become I miss you And not only you I miss what I am When you are here... ??--Leonard Nimoy ______________________________________ I HAVE BEEN ALONE BEFORE I have been alone before And thought I knew loneliness. I was wrong. There were three: You and I, and we. Without you there is less than one --Leonard Nimoy ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > > McKuen is indeed walking his sheepdog on the beach these days. > > He was a part of the Berkeley Renaissance scene in the 1940s & early > '50s that included Duncan, Blaser, Spicer, Madeline Gleason, Kenneth > Rexroth & even Philip K Dick. > > Like Dick, his own writing took him elsewhere & he did have that curious > public career. > > Jewel, whose singing I frankly prefer to McKuen's, however, has no > connection to a literary sense or scene. Her poetry is more akin to > Leonard Nimoy's book, I am Not Spock. Or the poems of the late Kansas > City baseball player Dan Quisenberry (whose name I may have misspelled) > > Ron > From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 27 12:20:01 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:20:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry References: <000601c30ccb$5ce4d1a0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3EABF19C.7A01D751@earthlink.net> <006c01c30cd2$40bc3ed0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <007a01c30cd5$2b983ab0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <3EAC0331.B788650D@earthlink.net> Did you get that college instructor's name? And, is anyone on his/her tenure review committee? - Jim TheOldMole wrote: > > Sorry, folks, I can't let this go. From a review of Ally's book on Amazon: > > critics were prepared to pan this because it was written by a famous > actress. the work, however, is honest with brillant imagery and keen > insight. I have used the book in college courses and find it inspiring. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TheOldMole" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:32 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry > > > It gets better. It turns out that I was looking at an Ally Sheedy parody > > site. The poem was Sheedy's in a sense...but...well, here's the whole > story. > > > > Methodology: This poem consists of one random line from each page of Ally > > Sheedy's Yesterday I Saw the Sun (Summit Books, New York, 1991) between > > pages 19 and 140, inclusive. Titles counted as line number 1; if there > were > > too few lines on a given page, the random number was taken modulo the > number > > of lines. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "James Cervantes" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:05 AM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry > > > > > > > Had that been by Meryl Streep I would have been crushed. But, Ally > > > Sheedy? Who cares. Tell her to wear something under those costumes. > > > > > > - Jim > > > > > > TheOldMole wrote: > > > > > > > > Methodology > > > > My costume is so beautiful > > > > is deceptive > > > > yet I find I always cry > > > > from the cold? > > > > > > > > And no more hits and punches > > > > and unprepared > > > > thick and white with sunlight > > > > and ignites forever the blood of > > > > I feel it everywhere > > > > Men look me over on every city street. > > > > > > > > -- Ally Sheedy > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "David Graham" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 11:04 PM > > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen > > > > > > > > > > David Graham wrote: > > > > > >> Well, Wendy B. didn't say I couldn't post any Jimmy Stewart > poems! > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't forbid, David. I begged. There's a difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > > > True enough, they differ, you might say, as syllable from sound. > Or, > > as > > > > the > > > > > poems of Rod McKuen differ from those of Jimmy Stewart. > > > > > > > > > > Be careful or I'll post some Leonard Nimoy next. > > > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > > > > > David Graham > > > > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > > > Home Page: > > > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > > > Poetry Library: > > > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 27 12:22:29 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:22:29 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen vs Jewel References: Message-ID: <3EAC03C5.C35A5AFA@earthlink.net> David Graham wrote: > > > > But Nimoy? Good heavens, it doesn't get much worse than this-- > > I love you > not for what > I want you to be > But for what you are > > I loved you then > For what you were > I love you now > for what you have become > > I miss you > And not only you > > I miss what I am > When you are here... > > ??--Leonard Nimoy Give the guy a break, David. He was melding. - Jim, forgetting that spot one is supposed to touch when melding From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 27 12:24:42 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:24:42 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry References: <000601c30ccb$5ce4d1a0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3EABF19C.7A01D751@earthlink.net> <006c01c30cd2$40bc3ed0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <007601c30cd4$c0bc93d0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <3EAC044A.6E5924E7@earthlink.net> My favorite is: New Jersey to embrace me with no regard for my blood So, THAT'S Ally Sheedy. Several of my female students look like her, though with better earrings. - Jim TheOldMole wrote: > > Actually, you really need to see all of this: > > http://www.icir.org/kohler/z/writingthroughallysheedy.html > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TheOldMole" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:32 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry > > > It gets better. It turns out that I was looking at an Ally Sheedy parody > > site. The poem was Sheedy's in a sense...but...well, here's the whole > story. > > > > Methodology: This poem consists of one random line from each page of Ally > > Sheedy's Yesterday I Saw the Sun (Summit Books, New York, 1991) between > > pages 19 and 140, inclusive. Titles counted as line number 1; if there > were > > too few lines on a given page, the random number was taken modulo the > number > > of lines. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "James Cervantes" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 11:05 AM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry > > > > > > > Had that been by Meryl Streep I would have been crushed. But, Ally > > > Sheedy? Who cares. Tell her to wear something under those costumes. > > > > > > - Jim > > > > > > TheOldMole wrote: > > > > > > > > Methodology > > > > My costume is so beautiful > > > > is deceptive > > > > yet I find I always cry > > > > from the cold? > > > > > > > > And no more hits and punches > > > > and unprepared > > > > thick and white with sunlight > > > > and ignites forever the blood of > > > > I feel it everywhere > > > > Men look me over on every city street. > > > > > > > > -- Ally Sheedy > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "David Graham" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 11:04 PM > > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen > > > > > > > > > > David Graham wrote: > > > > > >> Well, Wendy B. didn't say I couldn't post any Jimmy Stewart > poems! > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't forbid, David. I begged. There's a difference. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wendy > > > > > > > > > > True enough, they differ, you might say, as syllable from sound. > Or, > > as > > > > the > > > > > poems of Rod McKuen differ from those of Jimmy Stewart. > > > > > > > > > > Be careful or I'll post some Leonard Nimoy next. > > > > > > > > > > ==================================================== > > > > > David Graham > > > > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > > > Home Page: > > > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > > > Poetry Library: > > > > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > > > ==================================================== > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From MerwinDame at aol.com Sun Apr 27 13:32:44 2003 From: MerwinDame at aol.com (MerwinDame at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:32:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry Message-ID: <1de.7b0edcd.2bdd6e3c@aol.com> In a message dated 4/27/2003 8:56:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > Actually, you really need to see all of this: > > http://www.icir.org/kohler/z/writingthroughallysheedy.html > > the most interesting part of this whole discussion is that long before sheedy was a well-known brat-pack actress in her teens and twenties...she was a published author at 12, having penned the best-selling children's book (at 12, is there any other kind?) "she was nice to mice". i have never read it -- though, in the spirit of full disclosure, it must be revealed that she was the daughter of a new york literary agent. what part nepotism played in her publication is not known (though prolly can be guessed) -- but i have read and heard from friends who have known her and worked with her that despite the angst, anorexia, and almost unbearable-to-watch rubbery twitchy annoying facial expressions, she is no dummy in real life. just perhaps a bad poet. =:-) however, i shall take her very worst over nimoy's very best. that love poem of his makes me want to take my own life. some 30 minutes later, the flesh is still crawling off of my body. *muffy* ps) though i GOTTA agree with herr cervantes when he says: << My favorite is: New Jersey to embrace me with no regard for my blood >> why, that's almost...poetic. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Apr 27 14:03:49 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 13:03:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers Message-ID: I suspect that the following list is not based strictly on sales figures, but in any case the *Christian Science Monitor* has printed the following "guide to the bestsellers" in poetry. Comprising "recommendations from independent bookstores across America," and put out by Book Sense. Interesting list, anyway, both for its inclusions and exclusions. I have never read the last poet, Greg Hewett. Anyone happen to have a poem of his handy for posting? 1. What do we know by Mary Oliver Da Capo Press, $22 2. Blue Hour by Carolyn Forch? HarperCollins, $24.95 3. Open House by Beth Ann Fennelly Zoo Press, $14.95 4. The unswept room by Sharon Olds Knopf, $15 5. Source by Mark Doty HarperCollins, $22 6. Nine Horses by Billy Collins Random House, $21.95 7. Sifting Through the Madness for the Word, the Line, the Way by Charles Bukowski Ecco, $27.50 8. Sleeping with the Dictionary by Harryette Mullen University of Calif., $14.95 9. Fox by Adrienne Rich W. W. Norton, $12 10. Red Suburb by Greg Hewett Coffee House Press, $14.95 ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From MillB at aol.com Sun Apr 27 14:03:39 2003 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:03:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry Message-ID: Before I read the latest posting, I was about to say the same damn thing, well not the part about my skin crawling or taking my own life (I laughed aloud over that one), but about Ally Sheedy's kid book: She Was Nice to Mice. I am so old that I can actually remember seeing her on the Carson show (I think with her mother), promoting the book at age 12. . . And I am so green that I am the same age as Ally. . .Way back then, she seemed awfully bright and intelligent. And I thought, gosh. She's already got a book out. What have I completed? Sixth grade. That was pre-St Elmo's Fire . If I'm not mistaken, her acting career about later--as a result of her young celebrity-author-hood. From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Apr 27 14:36:31 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:36:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen vs Jewel References: Message-ID: <000701c30ceb$ec84f450$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> If I had Jewel in one of my undergraduate creative writing classes, I'd probably think that she was one of my best students -- although I'd think she had a lot to learn. If I had Leonard or Ally, I'd just pray for the semester to be over soon, ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 12:07 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen vs Jewel I'm not sure what if anything it means that McKuen once hung out in the vicinity of Robert Duncan, Kenneth Rexroth, and even Philip K. Dick--it certainly didn't seem to teach him much about poetry. Are you suggesting that he once had talent? Not visible to me. Or that his poems show evidence of an awareness of better stuff? Huh? What such west coast roots might have given McKuen is a very saleable public image, I suppose. He's a watered down middlebrow version of that mythical thing, a Beat hipster. His phenomenonal success had a lot to do with his denatured but exciting-to-pubescents image as a vaguely bohemian sort, lonely and anguished, walking the beach as torrents of feeling washed up at his feet, etc. And the sheep dog was a nice touch. As for his curious public career, it's probably worth mentioning that McKuen made a boatload of money as a singer/songwriter, probably a lot more cash than his awful poems earned. And in the context of pop music, I suppose his dreadful lyrics are no more painful than most (his "Jean" being the quintessential oldie that makes me turn off the radio fast, though). In my book, Leonard Nimoy is close to rock bottom in terms of celebrity poetic talent. Yes, even worse than McKuen. Even Jewel shows some flashes of occasional wit or awareness of figurative power, and she seems to have at least read some Neruda. And yes, she has a very nice voice, but unfortunately writes most of her own lyrics. At Lilith Fair once I heard her sing an old folk song and was dazzled. But Nimoy? Good heavens, it doesn't get much worse than this-- I love you not for what I want you to be But for what you are I loved you then For what you were I love you now for what you have become I miss you And not only you I miss what I am When you are here... --Leonard Nimoy ______________________________________ I HAVE BEEN ALONE BEFORE I have been alone before And thought I knew loneliness. I was wrong. There were three: You and I, and we. Without you there is less than one --Leonard Nimoy ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > > McKuen is indeed walking his sheepdog on the beach these days. > > He was a part of the Berkeley Renaissance scene in the 1940s & early > '50s that included Duncan, Blaser, Spicer, Madeline Gleason, Kenneth > Rexroth & even Philip K Dick. > > Like Dick, his own writing took him elsewhere & he did have that curious > public career. > > Jewel, whose singing I frankly prefer to McKuen's, however, has no > connection to a literary sense or scene. Her poetry is more akin to > Leonard Nimoy's book, I am Not Spock. Or the poems of the late Kansas > City baseball player Dan Quisenberry (whose name I may have misspelled) > > Ron > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Apr 27 14:40:15 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:40:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: Message-ID: <003201c30cec$71bc8020$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> That's a nice list -- no complaints here. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 2:03 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers I suspect that the following list is not based strictly on sales figures, but in any case the *Christian Science Monitor* has printed the following "guide to the bestsellers" in poetry. Comprising "recommendations from independent bookstores across America," and put out by Book Sense. Interesting list, anyway, both for its inclusions and exclusions. I have never read the last poet, Greg Hewett. Anyone happen to have a poem of his handy for posting? 1. What do we know by Mary Oliver Da Capo Press, $22 2. Blue Hour by Carolyn Forch? HarperCollins, $24.95 3. Open House by Beth Ann Fennelly Zoo Press, $14.95 4. The unswept room by Sharon Olds Knopf, $15 5. Source by Mark Doty HarperCollins, $22 6. Nine Horses by Billy Collins Random House, $21.95 7. Sifting Through the Madness for the Word, the Line, the Way by Charles Bukowski Ecco, $27.50 8. Sleeping with the Dictionary by Harryette Mullen University of Calif., $14.95 9. Fox by Adrienne Rich W. W. Norton, $12 10. Red Suburb by Greg Hewett Coffee House Press, $14.95 ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Faustina1 at aol.com Sun Apr 27 14:51:29 2003 From: Faustina1 at aol.com (Faustina1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:51:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers Message-ID: <1c7.8c73e7f.2bdd80b1@aol.com> Well, I am ashamed at how few of them I have read--though I have read other work of all those writers. And I am wondering how much money a poetry "bestseller" brings in. I remember wending my way through Vikram's The Golden Gate--now THAT made money. Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 27 15:01:22 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:01:22 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: <003201c30cec$71bc8020$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <3EAC2903.47AEA672@earthlink.net> I've not read any of those collections. $190.25 + tax + shipping for all 10. Someone should sell them as a bundle, with a 20% discount & no shipping charges. I too have never read Hewett, nor Beth Ann Fennelly. Post both if you got 'em. - Jim TheOldMole wrote: > > That's a nice list -- no complaints here. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 2:03 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers > > I suspect that the following list is not based strictly on sales figures, > but in any case the *Christian Science Monitor* has printed the following > "guide to the bestsellers" in poetry. Comprising "recommendations from > independent bookstores across America," and put out by Book Sense. > > Interesting list, anyway, both for its inclusions and exclusions. I have > never read the last poet, Greg Hewett. Anyone happen to have a poem of his > handy for posting? > > 1. What do we know > by Mary Oliver > Da Capo Press, $22 > > 2. Blue Hour > by Carolyn Forch? > HarperCollins, $24.95 > > 3. Open House > by Beth Ann Fennelly > Zoo Press, $14.95 > > 4. The unswept room > by Sharon Olds > Knopf, $15 > > 5. Source > by Mark Doty > HarperCollins, $22 > > 6. Nine Horses > by Billy Collins > Random House, $21.95 > > 7. Sifting Through the Madness for the Word, the Line, the Way > by Charles Bukowski > Ecco, $27.50 > > 8. Sleeping with the Dictionary > by Harryette Mullen > University of Calif., $14.95 > > 9. Fox > by Adrienne Rich > W. W. Norton, $12 > > 10. Red Suburb > by Greg Hewett > Coffee House Press, $14.95 > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Apr 27 15:04:25 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:04:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: <003201c30cec$71bc8020$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3EAC2903.47AEA672@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006001c30cef$d1d0e070$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> http://faculty.knox.edu/bfennell/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers I've not read any of those collections. $190.25 + tax + shipping for all 10. Someone should sell them as a bundle, with a 20% discount & no shipping charges. I too have never read Hewett, nor Beth Ann Fennelly. Post both if you got 'em. - Jim TheOldMole wrote: > > That's a nice list -- no complaints here. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 2:03 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers > > I suspect that the following list is not based strictly on sales figures, > but in any case the *Christian Science Monitor* has printed the following > "guide to the bestsellers" in poetry. Comprising "recommendations from > independent bookstores across America," and put out by Book Sense. > > Interesting list, anyway, both for its inclusions and exclusions. I have > never read the last poet, Greg Hewett. Anyone happen to have a poem of his > handy for posting? > > 1. What do we know > by Mary Oliver > Da Capo Press, $22 > > 2. Blue Hour > by Carolyn Forch? > HarperCollins, $24.95 > > 3. Open House > by Beth Ann Fennelly > Zoo Press, $14.95 > > 4. The unswept room > by Sharon Olds > Knopf, $15 > > 5. Source > by Mark Doty > HarperCollins, $22 > > 6. Nine Horses > by Billy Collins > Random House, $21.95 > > 7. Sifting Through the Madness for the Word, the Line, the Way > by Charles Bukowski > Ecco, $27.50 > > 8. Sleeping with the Dictionary > by Harryette Mullen > University of Calif., $14.95 > > 9. Fox > by Adrienne Rich > W. W. Norton, $12 > > 10. Red Suburb > by Greg Hewett > Coffee House Press, $14.95 > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Apr 27 15:06:39 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:06:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: <003201c30cec$71bc8020$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3EAC2903.47AEA672@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006401c30cf0$21fdee80$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> http://www.baymoon.com/~poetrysantacruz/resources/sentinel.html -- one poem by Greg Hewett here, yuou have to traverse down a ways to find it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers I've not read any of those collections. $190.25 + tax + shipping for all 10. Someone should sell them as a bundle, with a 20% discount & no shipping charges. I too have never read Hewett, nor Beth Ann Fennelly. Post both if you got 'em. - Jim TheOldMole wrote: > > That's a nice list -- no complaints here. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 2:03 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers > > I suspect that the following list is not based strictly on sales figures, > but in any case the *Christian Science Monitor* has printed the following > "guide to the bestsellers" in poetry. Comprising "recommendations from > independent bookstores across America," and put out by Book Sense. > > Interesting list, anyway, both for its inclusions and exclusions. I have > never read the last poet, Greg Hewett. Anyone happen to have a poem of his > handy for posting? > > 1. What do we know > by Mary Oliver > Da Capo Press, $22 > > 2. Blue Hour > by Carolyn Forch? > HarperCollins, $24.95 > > 3. Open House > by Beth Ann Fennelly > Zoo Press, $14.95 > > 4. The unswept room > by Sharon Olds > Knopf, $15 > > 5. Source > by Mark Doty > HarperCollins, $22 > > 6. Nine Horses > by Billy Collins > Random House, $21.95 > > 7. Sifting Through the Madness for the Word, the Line, the Way > by Charles Bukowski > Ecco, $27.50 > > 8. Sleeping with the Dictionary > by Harryette Mullen > University of Calif., $14.95 > > 9. Fox > by Adrienne Rich > W. W. Norton, $12 > > 10. Red Suburb > by Greg Hewett > Coffee House Press, $14.95 > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 27 17:44:46 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:44:46 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: <003201c30cec$71bc8020$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3EAC2903.47AEA672@earthlink.net> <006001c30cef$d1d0e070$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <3EAC4F4E.CB0404A7@earthlink.net> TheOldMole wrote: > > http://faculty.knox.edu/bfennell/ > O.K., and here are two from the Poetry Daily archives: Poem Not to Be Read at Your Wedding You ask me for a poem about love in place of a wedding present, trying to save me money. For three nights I've lain under glow-in-the-dark-stars I've stuck to the ceiling over my bed. I've listened to the songs of the galaxy. Well, Carmen, I would rather give you your third set of steak knives than tell you what I know. Let me find you some other, store-bought present. Don't make me warn you of stars, how they see us from that distance as miniature and breakable from the bride who tops the wedding cake to the Mary on Pinto dashboards holding her ripe, red heart in her hands. Yield She makes them still, recipes serving eight or ten or twelve. It's what she is, the stroganoff, the lasagna. She bakes and rearranges the cluttered fridge, the curdled quarts of milk, bronze cold cuts oxidizing green, pork chops ? her husband's favorite. Sleepless, she bruises garlic and pulls the beards from mussels. At the gargling disposal: she marries ketchup from two family- sized bottles. A habit. A necessary lie. If there was ever a way to cook for one, she can't remember, or who she was exactly when she knew. Her babies, grown and quarrel-scattered, come back only in dreams to search the freezer, asking, "What is there to eat?" She pleads, "I'll make you anything you want," then wakes, turns on the twelve-cup coffee pot. She writes a list of what's gone bad, what's gone, then shops, avoiding contents that have settled and check-out clerks who ask, "Will this be all?" The years flip backwards, indecipherable as journal pages from that honeymoon to Greece ? she's forgotten her shorthand. What she remembers now are the requests, the favorite birthday dinners of each child, the man she fed for thirty years who loved her mashed potatoes, who walked out one day. She's kept his dinner warm for seven months, her fingers thinning, wedding band so loose it falls into the angelfood cake batter. Beth Ann Fennelly _Open House_ From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Apr 27 17:38:53 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 17:38:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers In-Reply-To: <006401c30cf0$21fdee80$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: Tad, back a way (60s or so) Greg Hewett edited one of those pocket-sized paperback poetry anthologies that were sprouting like weeds in those days. Don't remember its name, though, and am pretty sure I don't have it around anymore. Hal { http://www.baymoon.com/~poetrysantacruz/resources/sentinel.html -- one poem { by Greg Hewett here, yuou have to traverse down a ways to find it. From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Apr 27 17:45:24 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 17:45:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry. I was thinking, I think, of Geoff Hewett. Hal "I think I think; therefore I think I am." --Ambrose Bierce Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Tad, back a way (60s or so) Greg Hewett edited one of those { pocket-sized paperback poetry anthologies that were sprouting { like weeds in those days. Don't remember its name, though, and { am pretty sure I don't have it around anymore. { { Hal { { { http://www.baymoon.com/~poetrysantacruz/resources/sentinel.html -- one poem { { by Greg Hewett here, yuou have to traverse down a ways to find it. { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 27 18:01:58 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:01:58 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: Message-ID: <3EAC5356.CD0ACF92@earthlink.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > > Sorry. I was thinking, I think, of Geoff Hewett. > > Hal "I think I think; therefore I think I am." > --Ambrose Bierce Dear Senior Moment: You are forgiven. - Senor Momento From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 27 18:18:36 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:18:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: <003201c30cec$71bc8020$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3EAC2903.47AEA672@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <009801c30d0a$f3e7e1c0$4a7afea9@j1c1k6> > I've not read any of those collections. $190.25 + tax + shipping for all > 10. Someone should sell them as a bundle, with a 20% discount & no > shipping charges. Or throw in a copy of one of Rod's books and one of Jewel's. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 27 18:34:11 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:34:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: Message-ID: <00ba01c30d0d$227a9260$4a7afea9@j1c1k6> > Tad, back a way (60s or so) Greg Hewett edited one of those > pocket-sized paperback poetry anthologies that were sprouting > like weeds in those days. Don't remember its name, though, and > am pretty sure I don't have it around anymore. > > Hal QUICKLY AGING HERE Some Poets of the 1970s It actually has a visual poet, Mary Ellen Solt. The others: Alfred Starr Hamilton, Shirley Kaufman, Eric Torgersen, William Harmon, Philip Dow, Joseph Cardarelli, Coleman Barks, Sophia Castro-Leon, Dennis Trudell, David Hilton, Gregory Orr, William Hathaway, Stephen Shrader, Ray DiPalma, luke, Susan Axelrod, Stuart Peter Freund, Thomas Hanna, Barbara L. Greenberg, Don Shea, Stan Rice, Floyce, Alexander, Rochelle Ratner, William Witherup, Edger Paiewonsky, Sandford Lyne, Peter Fellowes, Colette Inez, William Brown, Gerald Butler, Dan Gillespie, Fanny Howe, Craig Sterry, Denis Johnson. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 27 18:35:50 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:35:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: Message-ID: <00c401c30d0d$5cf371a0$4a7afea9@j1c1k6> > Sorry. I was thinking, I think, of Geoff Hewett. > Yeah, me, too. It's "Geof." --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Apr 27 19:00:45 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 19:00:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers Message-ID: <2d.2db9e184.2bddbb1d@cs.com> In a message dated 4/27/2003 4:44:16 PM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > Tad, back a way (60s or so) Greg Hewett edited one of those > pocket-sized paperback poetry anthologies that were sprouting > like weeds in those days. Don't remember its name, though, and > am pretty sure I don't have it around anymore. > > Hal That was Geoff Hewett, I believe. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 27 19:52:43 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 16:52:43 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: <00ba01c30d0d$227a9260$4a7afea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EAC6D4A.FBC039EC@earthlink.net> Uh. Bob, not to be PC or anything, but you left out some of us on this list. - Jim, also of the 60s Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Tad, back a way (60s or so) Greg Hewett edited one of those > > pocket-sized paperback poetry anthologies that were sprouting > > like weeds in those days. Don't remember its name, though, and > > am pretty sure I don't have it around anymore. > > > > Hal > > QUICKLY AGING HERE Some Poets of the 1970s > > It actually has a visual poet, Mary Ellen Solt. > > The others: Alfred Starr Hamilton, Shirley Kaufman, Eric Torgersen, William > Harmon, Philip Dow, Joseph Cardarelli, Coleman Barks, Sophia Castro-Leon, > Dennis Trudell, David Hilton, Gregory Orr, William Hathaway, Stephen > Shrader, Ray DiPalma, luke, Susan Axelrod, Stuart Peter Freund, Thomas > Hanna, Barbara L. Greenberg, Don Shea, Stan Rice, Floyce, Alexander, > Rochelle Ratner, William Witherup, Edger Paiewonsky, Sandford Lyne, Peter > Fellowes, Colette Inez, William Brown, Gerald Butler, Dan Gillespie, Fanny > Howe, Craig Sterry, Denis Johnson. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From hruggier at localnet.com Sun Apr 27 20:25:24 2003 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 20:25:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen vs Jewel References: Message-ID: <3EAC74F4.99411976@localnet.com> I am loving this review of bad celebrity poetry - I have an essay floating around somewhere on that same topic - suggesting finally that if you intend to write poetry, you should take acting lessons first. H. Ruggieri David Graham wrote: > I'm not sure what if anything it means that McKuen once hung out in the > vicinity of Robert Duncan, Kenneth Rexroth, and even Philip K. Dick--it > certainly didn't seem to teach him much about poetry. Are you suggesting > that he once had talent? Not visible to me. Or that his poems show > evidence of an awareness of better stuff? Huh? > > What such west coast roots might have given McKuen is a very saleable public > image, I suppose. He's a watered down middlebrow version of that mythical > thing, a Beat hipster. His phenomenonal success had a lot to do with his > denatured but exciting-to-pubescents image as a vaguely bohemian sort, > lonely and anguished, walking the beach as torrents of feeling washed up at > his feet, etc. And the sheep dog was a nice touch. > > As for his curious public career, it's probably worth mentioning that McKuen > made a boatload of money as a singer/songwriter, probably a lot more cash > than his awful poems earned. And in the context of pop music, I suppose his > dreadful lyrics are no more painful than most (his "Jean" being the > quintessential oldie that makes me turn off the radio fast, though). > > In my book, Leonard Nimoy is close to rock bottom in terms of celebrity > poetic talent. Yes, even worse than McKuen. Even Jewel shows some flashes > of occasional wit or awareness of figurative power, and she seems to have at > least read some Neruda. And yes, she has a very nice voice, but > unfortunately writes most of her own lyrics. At Lilith Fair once I heard > her sing an old folk song and was dazzled. > > But Nimoy? Good heavens, it doesn't get much worse than this-- > > I love you > not for what > I want you to be > But for what you are > > I loved you then > For what you were > I love you now > for what you have become > > I miss you > And not only you > > I miss what I am > When you are here... > > --Leonard Nimoy > ______________________________________ > > I HAVE BEEN ALONE BEFORE > > I have been alone before > And thought I knew loneliness. > I was wrong. > > There were three: > > You and I, > and we. > > Without you there is > less than one > > --Leonard Nimoy > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > > McKuen is indeed walking his sheepdog on the beach these days. > > > > He was a part of the Berkeley Renaissance scene in the 1940s & early > > '50s that included Duncan, Blaser, Spicer, Madeline Gleason, Kenneth > > Rexroth & even Philip K Dick. > > > > Like Dick, his own writing took him elsewhere & he did have that curious > > public career. > > > > Jewel, whose singing I frankly prefer to McKuen's, however, has no > > connection to a literary sense or scene. Her poetry is more akin to > > Leonard Nimoy's book, I am Not Spock. Or the poems of the late Kansas > > City baseball player Dan Quisenberry (whose name I may have misspelled) > > > > Ron > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Apr 27 20:04:16 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 20:04:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: <00ba01c30d0d$227a9260$4a7afea9@j1c1k6> <3EAC6D4A.FBC039EC@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001301c30d19$b6a33a80$4097fea9@j1c1k6> > Uh. Bob, not to be PC or anything, but you left out some of us on this list. > > - Jim, also of the 60s I didn't leave you out, Jim--Geof did. I just listed the poets in his anthology. > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > Tad, back a way (60s or so) Greg Hewett edited one of those > > > pocket-sized paperback poetry anthologies that were sprouting > > > like weeds in those days. Don't remember its name, though, and > > > am pretty sure I don't have it around anymore. > > > > > > Hal > > > > QUICKLY AGING HERE Some Poets of the 1970s > > > > It actually has a visual poet, Mary Ellen Solt. > > > > The others: Alfred Starr Hamilton, Shirley Kaufman, Eric Torgersen, William > > Harmon, Philip Dow, Joseph Cardarelli, Coleman Barks, Sophia Castro-Leon, > > Dennis Trudell, David Hilton, Gregory Orr, William Hathaway, Stephen > > Shrader, Ray DiPalma, luke, Susan Axelrod, Stuart Peter Freund, Thomas > > Hanna, Barbara L. Greenberg, Don Shea, Stan Rice, Floyce, Alexander, > > Rochelle Ratner, William Witherup, Edger Paiewonsky, Sandford Lyne, Peter > > Fellowes, Colette Inez, William Brown, Gerald Butler, Dan Gillespie, Fanny > > Howe, Craig Sterry, Denis Johnson. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Apr 27 21:17:59 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:17:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: Message-ID: <008501c30d24$021721c0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Geoff Hewett I remember. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 5:45 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers > Sorry. I was thinking, I think, of Geoff Hewett. > > Hal "I think I think; therefore I think I am." > --Ambrose Bierce > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > { Tad, back a way (60s or so) Greg Hewett edited one of those > { pocket-sized paperback poetry anthologies that were sprouting > { like weeds in those days. Don't remember its name, though, and > { am pretty sure I don't have it around anymore. > { > { Hal > { > { { http://www.baymoon.com/~poetrysantacruz/resources/sentinel.html -- one poem > { { by Greg Hewett here, yuou have to traverse down a ways to find it. > { > { _______________________________________________ > { New-Poetry mailing list > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > { > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Sun Apr 27 21:19:36 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:19:36 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen vs Jewel Message-ID: <12e.28cc0b92.2bdddba8@aol.com> In a message dated 4/27/03 7:58:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes: > that if you intend to > write poetry, you should take acting lessons first. > Rooting around a used book stall about a year ago I found a book of poems by Michael Madsen (Reservoir Dogs and many other dog movies to follow). I didn't buy it, so I can't quote explicitly...but it seemed like the poetry was trying to lend some cred to his type-cast tough-guy film persona. This subject begs for the making of a very funny anthology. But the trees, the poor trees, they always suffer... Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Sun Apr 27 21:25:21 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:25:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen Message-ID: In a message dated 4/26/03 8:52:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > I've never been much of a fan of the Four Quartets, which > have always sounded to me like a once-brilliant tenor going through the > motions for a greatest hits album. Sam, I have to disagree. The Four Quartets is a wondrous & wide-ranging meditation. It's a poet testing poetry as means toward a metaphysics. My shabby equipment forever deteriorating, Finnegan From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sun Apr 27 21:38:29 2003 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:38:29 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen vs Jewel References: Message-ID: <3EAC8615.4CCCA229@earthlink.net> Beautiful ode to a network about Star Trek being cancelled > > not for what > I want you to be > But for what you are > > I loved you then > For what you were > I love you now > for what you have become > > I miss you > And not only you > > I miss what I am > When you are here... Miss the klingons and the vulcan ear > > > ??--Leonard Nimoy > ______________________________________ > > I HAVE BEEN ALONE BEFORE > > I have been alone before > And thought I knew loneliness. > I was wrong. > > There were three: > > You and I, > and we. > > Without you there is > less than one > > --Leonard Nimoy > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > > McKuen is indeed walking his sheepdog on the beach these days. > > > > He was a part of the Berkeley Renaissance scene in the 1940s & early > > '50s that included Duncan, Blaser, Spicer, Madeline Gleason, Kenneth > > Rexroth & even Philip K Dick. > > > > Like Dick, his own writing took him elsewhere & he did have that curious > > public career. > > > > Jewel, whose singing I frankly prefer to McKuen's, however, has no > > connection to a literary sense or scene. Her poetry is more akin to > > Leonard Nimoy's book, I am Not Spock. Or the poems of the late Kansas > > City baseball player Dan Quisenberry (whose name I may have misspelled) > > > > Ron > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Apr 27 21:36:19 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:36:19 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen vs Jewel References: <3EAC74F4.99411976@localnet.com> Message-ID: <3EAC8593.C3981CF4@earthlink.net> Helen Ruggieri wrote: > > I am loving this review of bad celebrity poetry - I have an essay floating > around somewhere on that same topic - suggesting finally that if you intend to > write poetry, you should take acting lessons first. a.k.a. adopting a persona in a convincing manner. Do the essay. - Jim From JforJames at aol.com Sun Apr 27 21:41:33 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:41:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen Message-ID: In a message dated 4/26/03 6:57:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wjbat at conncoll.edu writes: > After I disappeared off to Cornell and > then FAWC in Provincetown, my mother, who was beginning to suspect this > poetry stuff wasn't going to go away, made a rare effort at > reconciliation and bought and read all of Rod McKuen. My tale in this vein was that I was handed a "gift" book by one James Kavanaugh. At first I thought it was Patrick Kavanaugh and was duly thankful...it didn't take but a few lines to realize I was reading a McKuen-knockoff. Does the name Hugh Prather give you the willies? Finnegan From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Apr 27 21:46:21 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:46:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen vs Jewel Message-ID: <1d9.85f6e0e.2bdde1ed@cs.com> In a message dated 4/27/2003 6:58:38 PM Central Standard Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes: > > I am loving this review of bad celebrity poetry - I have an essay floating > around somewhere on that same topic - suggesting finally that if you intend > to > write poetry, you should take acting lessons first. > > H. Ruggieri I have located my paper on this topic. Anyone who wants it can backchannel me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Sun Apr 27 21:47:22 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 20:47:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030427204536.01311820@mail.ilstu.edu> David, your suspicions are correct: that list is not based on real sales figures. It is nothing more than a recommendation list. Gabe At 01:03 PM 4/27/2003 -0500, you wrote: >I suspect that the following list is not based strictly on sales figures, From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon Apr 28 07:37:32 2003 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:37:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog Message-ID: <000001c30d7a$9356b410$f8f3f343@Dell> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ Celebrating 30,000 visitors since 9.1.2002 Chris Tysh's Continuity Girl Kit Robinson: New works & older works newly available Pores: an "avant-gardist journal of poetics research" Babelfish translates Habib Tengour Nick LoLordo defending the integrity of the academy The NEA's Shakespearean imperialism The daybook in poetry as a strategy toward plotlessness When theory theorizes its own irrelevance Hotel Amerika: Design before vision A letter from Tsering Wangmo Dhompa: The poetics of exile & the work of Tenzin Tsundue, a Tibetan poet writing in English in India Bromige's Spicer: Authenticizing As in T as in Tether Organizing my books to read in the sun Tsering Wangmo Dhompa: A Tibetan-American poet Lamenting the Tijuana Bible of Poetics More on the death of Rachel Corrie More on the Berkeley Poetry Conference & Live at the Writers House Joanne Kyger's Ten Shines Mytili Jagannathan, Jenn McCreary, Frank Sherlock, Andrew Zitcer, Joshua Schuster, your truly & Need New Body: Live @ the Writers House Edgar Bowers' "A Fragment: The Cause" - Is Knopf's poetry list deliberately embarrassing? Chris Stroffolino on depoliticization & the differences between 1974, 1989 & now James Wagner's False Sun Recordings: a practitioner of compactness Creeley's Yesterdays http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 28 10:42:05 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:42:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EAD057D.955.BD271C@localhost> > McKuen was once reportedly the best selling poet in the U.S. Don't know > what his status is now, and I wonder what happened to him:<< http://www.mckuen.com Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Apr 28 10:33:36 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:33:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers In-Reply-To: <3EAC5356.CD0ACF92@earthlink.net> Message-ID: { Dear Senior Moment: { { You are forgiven. { { - Senor Momento Whoa! Don't know about you, James, but I'm only a junior senior. Hal "The thing to remember is that each time of life has its appropriate rewards, whereas when you're dead it's hard to find the light switch." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Apr 28 10:34:47 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:34:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers In-Reply-To: <00ba01c30d0d$227a9260$4a7afea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: That's the one. Thanks, Bob. Hal { > Tad, back a way (60s or so) Greg Hewett edited one of those { > pocket-sized paperback poetry anthologies that were sprouting { > like weeds in those days. Don't remember its name, though, and { > am pretty sure I don't have it around anymore. { > { > Hal { { { QUICKLY AGING HERE Some Poets of the 1970s { { It actually has a visual poet, Mary Ellen Solt. { { The others: Alfred Starr Hamilton, Shirley Kaufman, Eric Torgersen, William { Harmon, Philip Dow, Joseph Cardarelli, Coleman Barks, Sophia Castro-Leon, { Dennis Trudell, David Hilton, Gregory Orr, William Hathaway, Stephen { Shrader, Ray DiPalma, luke, Susan Axelrod, Stuart Peter Freund, Thomas { Hanna, Barbara L. Greenberg, Don Shea, Stan Rice, Floyce, Alexander, { Rochelle Ratner, William Witherup, Edger Paiewonsky, Sandford Lyne, Peter { Fellowes, Colette Inez, William Brown, Gerald Butler, Dan Gillespie, Fanny { Howe, Craig Sterry, Denis Johnson. { { --Bob G. { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Apr 28 10:38:21 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:38:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen vs Jewel In-Reply-To: <3EAC8593.C3981CF4@earthlink.net> Message-ID: { Helen Ruggieri wrote: { > { > I am loving this review of bad celebrity poetry - I have an essay floating { > around somewhere on that same topic - suggesting finally that if you intend to { > write poetry, you should take acting lessons first. { { a.k.a. adopting a persona in a convincing manner. Do the essay. { { - Jim Yes, but don't omit Mao and Ho. Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." --Robert Ashley Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Apr 28 11:04:42 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:04:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen Message-ID: <169.1dcec798.2bde9d0a@cs.com> In a message dated 4/28/2003 9:38:05 AM Central Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > http://www.mckuen.com Read some of the unpublished poems. They're not that bad. I've seen a lot worse from poets who ought to know better. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Apr 28 11:06:39 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:06:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers Message-ID: <54.10011724.2bde9d7f@cs.com> In a message dated 4/28/2003 9:39:25 AM Central Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > The others: Alfred Starr Hamilton, Shirley Kaufman, Eric Torgersen, William > { Harmon, Philip Dow, Joseph Cardarelli, Coleman Barks, Sophia > Castro-Leon, > { Dennis Trudell, David Hilton, Gregory Orr, William Hathaway, Stephen > { Shrader, Ray DiPalma, luke, Susan Axelrod, Stuart Peter Freund, Thomas > { Hanna, Barbara L. Greenberg, Don Shea, Stan Rice, Floyce, Alexander, > { Rochelle Ratner, William Witherup, Edger Paiewonsky, Sandford Lyne, > Peter > { Fellowes, Colette Inez, William Brown, Gerald Butler, Dan Gillespie, > Fanny > { Howe, Craig Sterry, Denis Johnson. I recognize a few names. Ubi sunt the rest? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 28 11:13:23 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:13:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen In-Reply-To: <1cd.837a985.2bdc9b6a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EAD0CD3.9069.D9CF88@localhost> On 26 Apr 2003 at 22:33, Faustina1 at aol.com wrote: > "He'd dig up a rosebush just to spite me, > And when I'd grab him, he'd turn and bite me." > I greatly prefer this to McKuen! How many rhymes can one think of for "bite > me"? There is, of course, "indict me." Janet I knew it wouldn't take too long Before some critic would invite me To preen my ragged wings of song And pose, before my pounds can blight me, Adjust my big-and-tall-man thong, And, confident no one will slight me, Spread my arms so my sarong Won't show my belly just to spite me, And sing my note out, pure and strong For all those people who excite me. I know I can't be taken wrong Because of all the folks who write me To argue that the meanest dong Is art, and offering to fight me -- And that's art, too! McKuen, Jong, Nimoy and Jewel may not delight me -- Nor any of that teeming throng -- And those who don't like that can bite me. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Apr 28 11:08:47 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:08:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Dead Celebrity Actor-Poets Message-ID: <47.2d4a2696.2bde9dff@cs.com> The following is from the Washington Post Style Invitational contest that asks readers to submit "instructions" for something (anything), but written in the style of a famous person. The winning entry was The Hokey Pokey (as written by W. Shakespeare). O proud left foot, that ventures quick within Then soon upon a backward journey lithe. Anon, once more the gesture, then begin: Command sinistral pedestal to writhe. Commence thou then the fervid Hokey-Poke, A mad gyration, hips in wanton swirl. To spin! A wilde release from Heaven's yoke. Blessed dervish! Surely canst go, girl. The Hoke, the poke -- banish now thy doubt Verily, I say, 'tis what it's all about. -- by William Shakespeare (Jeff Brechlin, Potomac Falls) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Apr 28 11:15:58 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:15:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen In-Reply-To: <169.1dcec798.2bde9d0a@cs.com> Message-ID: <3EAD0D6E.2613.DC2F4B@localhost> On 28 Apr 2003 at 11:04, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > http://www.mckuen.com > Read some of the unpublished poems. They're not that bad. I've seen a lot > worse from poets who ought to know better. Which is, no doubt, why they're still unpublished! Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 28 12:11:23 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:11:23 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen References: <005101c30c4c$51ac4cc0$66d4fea9@j1c1k6> <00c101c30c6d$425c7530$6401a8c0@TRS80> <006701c30ca5$e7fd9a40$0d76fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <00c701c30da0$d4316040$6401a8c0@TRS80> Sorry, Bob, but I could write a thesis on McKuen-- that's what college lit study trains one for right?-- and it doesn't make his poetry any better. Nor does his "there's a tear in my beer" line do anything to help his cause despite your earnest attempts at squeezing your eyes shut and interpreting the ensuing spots. I'm completely happy to accept the "elitist" appellation if by that you mean being willing to call bad poetry bad poetry when I see it. And this has nothing to do with crediting McKuen's fans (my mother is one of them). I am even willing to stipulate that McKuen's readers probably boast a higher proportion of wonderful, sweet people than the general population. That is neither here nor there. I don't have time to mock those who like McKuen, and it would be beside the point. A lot of people like a lot of bad art. It's the artist himself who is offensive, and in many cases purposefully so. c From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 28 12:23:28 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:23:28 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry References: <000601c30ccb$5ce4d1a0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3EABF19C.7A01D751@earthlink.net> <006c01c30cd2$40bc3ed0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <007601c30cd4$c0bc93d0$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <3EAC044A.6E5924E7@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00e301c30da2$840aa8e0$6401a8c0@TRS80> But surely you saw that marvellous line by Sheedy: "and an X on my bed"? That is far better than most poetry one sees in lit journals today. And if you don't understand, I will just (for lack of space) fill you in on the most obvious in that X is a striking-out, a removal, of the poet, a woman, being cleaved from her sensuality and replaced, like the Christ in X-mas, she is being martyred, but with a burning bed instead of a burning (ahem) bush as her sign. And this triple aspect of removal and nothingness (akin, not-coincidentally, with withdrawal, perhaps early withdrawal? hmm??) is further heightened by the contemporary reference to a cast-off woman trying to regain an aspect of her sexually tumultous youth (thus the X rating) as some teens experiment and revel in their own with (you guessed it) ecstacy, also called X. Oh, the layers and layers. You poetry lovers in your ivory towers just aren't willing to give writers and their audience any credit. c From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 28 12:27:02 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:27:02 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: McKuen vs Jewel References: <000701c30ceb$ec84f450$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> Message-ID: <00fd01c30da3$03ea8f80$6401a8c0@TRS80> Jewel: she's from Alaska, she doesn't write about goldpans or moose or lazy rivers and great mountains... and she's "hot" in a vague sort of way, even with the British teeth. Nimoy: can't really mind-meld, is tired of people asking him to say things like "Live long and prosper" and his ears aren't really pointed. It's no contest really... c From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 28 12:31:08 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:31:08 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen References: <169.1dcec798.2bde9d0a@cs.com> Message-ID: <014c01c30da3$960869f0$6401a8c0@TRS80> On Monday, April 28, 2003 7:04 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com spake thusly: > Read some of the unpublished poems. They're not that bad. I've seen > a lot worse from poets who ought to know better. Then maybe Bob was right that someone wasn't giving McKuen's audience enough credit... he just had his gun pointed in the wrong direction... c From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Apr 28 13:36:31 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:36:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry In-Reply-To: <00e301c30da2$840aa8e0$6401a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: Chill out, Chris. You're messing with my screen. Ally Sheedy needs no more due (do? dew?) than any other weekend poet who's a part-time actress with a mother who's a literary agent. Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." --Robert Ashley Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { But surely you saw that marvellous line by Sheedy: { { "and an X on my bed"? { { That is far better than most poetry one sees in lit journals today. And if { you don't understand, I will just (for lack of space) fill you in on the { most obvious in that X is a striking-out, a removal, of the poet, a woman, { being cleaved from her sensuality and replaced, like the Christ in X-mas, { she is being martyred, but with a burning bed instead of a burning (ahem) { bush as her sign. And this triple aspect of removal and nothingness (akin, { not-coincidentally, with withdrawal, perhaps early withdrawal? hmm??) is { further heightened by the contemporary reference to a cast-off woman trying { to regain an aspect of her sexually tumultous youth (thus the X rating) as { some teens experiment and revel in their own with (you guessed it) ecstacy, { also called X. Oh, the layers and layers. You poetry lovers in your ivory { towers just aren't willing to give writers and their audience any credit. { { c { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 28 16:34:32 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:34:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen References: <005101c30c4c$51ac4cc0$66d4fea9@j1c1k6> <00c101c30c6d$425c7530$6401a8c0@TRS80> <006701c30ca5$e7fd9a40$0d76fea9@j1c1k6> <00c701c30da0$d4316040$6401a8c0@TRS80> Message-ID: <00bb01c30dc5$95336e40$24abfea9@j1c1k6> > Sorry, Bob, but I could write a thesis on McKuen-- that's what college lit > study trains one for right?-- and it doesn't make his poetry any better. Well, at least I said why I don't think McKuen is hopelessly bad, Chris. You've done nothing but state that he is. --Bob G. From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 28 17:14:36 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:14:36 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen References: <005101c30c4c$51ac4cc0$66d4fea9@j1c1k6> <00c101c30c6d$425c7530$6401a8c0@TRS80> <006701c30ca5$e7fd9a40$0d76fea9@j1c1k6> <00c701c30da0$d4316040$6401a8c0@TRS80> <00bb01c30dc5$95336e40$24abfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <017b01c30dcb$2cbc83a0$5b15e589@devbox> On Monday, April 28, 2003 12:34 PM, Bob Grumman spake thusly: > Well, at least I said why I don't think McKuen is hopelessly bad, > Chris. You've done nothing but state that he is. But in penance I have elevated Ally Sheedy to the ranks of major poet... The point remains that your wonderfully creative explication still doesn't make the poem any GOOD. For starters, the rhyme and syntax are greeting-card trite, of a larger triteness and bad rhyme that you carefully elided (a face and a quiet place, "we are as we must be" "shadows on our way to fall if not eternity") and this thud like a bad bowel movement staining the page: "And if we must look for heaven then heaven must surely be in arms that are warm and smiles if they tender be." replete with inversion to reach a "rhyme." Isn't triteness and lack of musicality, and ripe greeting card sentimentality enough? Lots of people have good ideas but no idea how to write them, if I were willing to grant even that the tear/year is a good idea-- which I don't, because I think you are putting Bob Grumman in the poem to make up for the lack of substance put there by McKuen-- then this is still completely unrealized, and nowhere near as good as even mediocre pieces in Connecticut Review or what have you. c From chris at chrislott.org Mon Apr 28 17:33:40 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:33:40 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry References: Message-ID: <01e901c30dcd$d70ee440$5b15e589@devbox> How about some Judy Garland? (a poem called "My Love is Lost" just in case you missed it): My love is lost. I held it as a handful of sand, clenching my fist to hold it there. Yet, bit by bit, it slipped through my straining fingers. Now, nothing but memories of every smile, every kiss, and, above all, every word. For 'twas not into my ear you whispered but into my heart. 'Twas not my lips you kissed, but my soul. And when I opened my tired hand and found my love was gone I trembled and died. I struggle to hide my deadness. To conceal the emptiness in my eyes, that sparkle with tears always so close but never come. My mind quivers and screams, fight, fight to live But why? My handful of existence has vanished. My love is lost. My love is lost. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Apr 28 17:47:21 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:47:21 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: Message-ID: <3EADA169.EA2B0DA6@earthlink.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > { Dear Senior Moment: > { > { You are forgiven. > { > { - Senor Momento > > Whoa! Don't know about you, James, but I'm > only a junior senior. Guess that makes me a freshman senior. Do you think we'll ever get the hang of it? - Jim From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 28 18:09:30 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:09:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen References: <005101c30c4c$51ac4cc0$66d4fea9@j1c1k6> <00c101c30c6d$425c7530$6401a8c0@TRS80> <006701c30ca5$e7fd9a40$0d76fea9@j1c1k6> <00c701c30da0$d4316040$6401a8c0@TRS80> <00bb01c30dc5$95336e40$24abfea9@j1c1k6> <017b01c30dcb$2cbc83a0$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <001801c30dd2$e54678c0$0f6bfea9@j1c1k6> > > Well, at least I said why I don't think McKuen is hopelessly bad, > > Chris. You've done nothing but state that he is. > > But in penance I have elevated Ally Sheedy to the ranks of major poet... > > The point remains that your wonderfully creative explication still doesn't > make the poem any GOOD. I didn't say it did. To totally subjective, I prefer bad poems that do one thing I think interesting than good poems that don't do anything in particular that I find interesting, which seems true of the poetry of most of the established poets whose poetry I have read. But thanks for the kind words about my explication. >For starters, the rhyme and syntax are greeting-card > trite, of a larger triteness and bad rhyme that you carefully elided (a face > and a quiet place, "we are as we must be" "shadows on our way to fall if not > eternity") and this thud like a bad bowel movement staining the page: > > "And if we must look for heaven > then heaven must surely be > in arms that are warm > and smiles if they tender be." > > replete with inversion to reach a "rhyme." > > Isn't triteness and lack of musicality, and ripe greeting card > sentimentality enough? Lots of people have good ideas but no idea how to > write them, if I were willing to grant even that the tear/year is a good > idea-- which I don't, because I think you are putting Bob Grumman in the > poem to make up for the lack of substance put there by McKuen-- then this is > still completely unrealized, and nowhere near as good as even mediocre > pieces in Connecticut Review or what have you. > > c I agree that the defects you find in the poem are there. We just disagree as to which is better, bad poetry with a flash of something, or flashless okay poetry. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 28 18:18:34 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:18:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Celebrity poetry References: <01e901c30dcd$d70ee440$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <001e01c30dd4$1e37b120$0f6bfea9@j1c1k6> > How about some Judy Garland? (a poem called "My Love is Lost" just in case > you missed it): > > > My love is lost. > I held it as a handful of sand, clenching my fist > to hold it there. > Yet, bit by bit, it slipped through my straining fingers. > > Now, nothing but memories of every smile, every kiss, > and, above all, every word. > For 'twas not into my ear you whispered but into > my heart. > 'Twas not my lips you kissed, but my soul. > > And when I opened my tired hand and found my > love was gone > I trembled and died. > > I struggle to hide my deadness. > To conceal the emptiness in my eyes, > that sparkle with tears always so close > but never come. > > My mind quivers and screams, fight, fight to live > But why? > My handful of existence has vanished. > My love is lost. > My love is lost. I dunno, Chris. When I read poems like this one part of the reason I cringe is because I visualize people reading one of mine the way I read this one. She was trying to say something and got SOMEwhere, I think. But, yeah, she didn't know how to make an effective poem. She didn't know that the step she took away from the demotic was one thousands of apprentice poets take, and thus not worth others watch. But maybe I who think/ I've taken more than a step/ and brought my poems to the brink/ of something full of pep/ will make people shudder and mutter/ as my pap melts like butter. I'm an occasional jogger, and jogged this afternoon. That was two hours ago, but I don't think I've fully recovered. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 28 18:21:15 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:21:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bestsellers References: <3EADA169.EA2B0DA6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002201c30dd4$7d5a3ec0$0f6bfea9@j1c1k6> > > { Dear Senior Moment: > > { > > { You are forgiven. > > { > > { - Senor Momento > > > > Whoa! Don't know about you, James, but I'm > > only a junior senior. > > Guess that makes me a freshman senior. Do you think we'll ever get the > hang of it? > > - Jim Hey, a few weeks ago I got my SECOND social security check. I think that qualifies me as a graduate senior. But I rilly don't think confusing a "Greg Hewitt, poet" with a "Geof Hewitt, poet" is a senior moment. I make worse mistakes hourly. --Bah, uh, buh . . . the letter after F, I'm sure. From adead_poet at hotmail.com Mon Apr 28 18:47:21 2003 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:47:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) Message-ID: i'm still waiting for shatner to publish a volume of poetry. but until then, there's this. www.shatnerology.com/poetry.html jason _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Apr 28 19:25:59 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:25:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) References: Message-ID: <004201c30ddd$88a8c040$0f6bfea9@j1c1k6> > i'm still waiting for shatner to publish a volume of poetry. > but until then, there's this. > > > www.shatnerology.com/poetry.html > > jason I doubt he's capable of writing anything as bad as what's at this site. Actually, I read one of the sci fi novels attributed to him. I found it quite good. --Bob G. From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Mon Apr 28 22:59:37 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:59:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] if you're free wednesday Message-ID: <160.1f90a47d.2bdf4499@aol.com> WEDNESDAY, APRIL 30 7:00 pm Jeffrey Levine and Jennifer Michael Hecht Sponsored by The Academy of American Poets Poet's House 72 Spring Street, second floor New York, New York 212-431-7920 http://www.poetshouse.org/ FREE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 29 00:37:37 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:37:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] for whitey Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030428233203.0187bbf8@mail.ilstu.edu> The eyes of mine have seen the glory come of serious people: It is pounding outside the ages where the grapes of the rage are jarred up; It has loosened the prophetic bolts of his items, Its truth is marching ignited. I have seen in watch-fires hundreds of fields that they surrounded and that they had bolted an altar in the evening and that there was dew and dew dampens; I can read its oration righteous by the ham-colored lamps that indicate by means of lights: Its day is marching ignited. I have read an ardent writing of gospels in rows polished by hard metals: "as you fling my contemners, so with you my tolerance beat up; Leave the hero, he who kept up with the woman and acclimated the serpent with a heel-head, since the ignited God is marching." It has sounded ahead the tuba that never will call in an otiose fashion; It is sifting outside the hearts of men before his judgment-seat: The old is fast, my aurora, the young is slow to say "be jubilant, my feet." Our God is marching ignited. In the beauty of the irises Christ it was born through the sea, with a glory in its chest that transfigures you and myself: Then he died to make holy men, let to us die to make free men, whereas the ignited God is marching. Yowza, the eyes of mine have seen the glory come from whitey. He is beating outside the wine press, where the grapes of the rage are warehoused, such that he hath loosened prophetic bolts from the broadsword of horror, their truth is marching ignited. I have seen in knocking-blazes of hundreds of meadows that they surrounded and that they have bolted an altar in the evening and that there is dew and it dampens, I can read its oration righteous in the beef-colored night and that the lights indicate by means of energy in the lamps, its day is marching ignited. I have read an ardent writing of the Gospel in ardent rows of the hard and ardent metal. And as you give lots of money and weapons to my contemners, so you my tolerance will deal with, the hero takes the woman and crushes the serpent's head with Italians, our God is marching ignited. He has sounded outside the tuba that is very loud. He has waked up the dulled pain the Earth with a high blow of a rock my soul is fast to answer that our feet are indeed very happy, Our God is marching ignited. In the whiteness of the irises it was born through the lip-covered sea, with a glory in its chest we are marching the brightness toward the outside of you and myself and as he died to make holy men let to us die to make free men, our ignited God. It is coming like the glory in the morning in the wave, he is wisdom to the powerful, he is succour to the brave citizen, such that the world will be his ottoman and the soul of Time his Negro, our God is marching ignited. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 29 00:50:17 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:50:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ali Baba, Haram Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030428234901.011b4a38@mail.ilstu.edu> Saturday 26 April 2003 America was at the centre of a new human rights row last night after four alleged Iraqi thieves were paraded naked in a Baghdad park by US troops. The degraded prisoners had the words "Ali Baba, Haram'' - "Thief, Unclean" - scrawled in Arabic on their chests. The humiliating spectacle of young men running to hide their shame was captured by a photographer for Norway's Dagbladet newspaper, which quoted a US officer as saying the deterrent was effective. Last night Amnesty International in London criticised the inhumane treatment and promised to raise the matter urgently with the United Nations next week. Director Kate Allen said: "If these pictures are accurate, this is an appalling way to treat prisoners. Such degrading treatment is a clear violation of the responsibilities of the occupying powers. "Whatever the reason, these men must at all times be treated humanely. The US authorities must investigate this incident and publicly release their findings." http://truthout.org/docs_03/042903C.shtml From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 29 00:59:07 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23:59:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] stay outa dodge Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030428235826.019431e8@mail.ilstu.edu> Keep Out Of Town Hall, Kut Tells US Troops Jonathan Steele in Kut The Guardian Friday 25 April 2003 Self-appointed Shia ruler issues decrees from barricaded building First the marines tried to get this dusty town's 200 police officers back to work, but 100 dropped out after local people warned them that only traitors collaborated with America. Then the police station burned down. It was still smouldering yesterday as frustrated US troops began to realise that governing a people is much harder than defeating one. "We've all just been issued with non-lethal equipment: batons, riot gas, shields, and stun grenades," Corporal Nathan Braden said. Two hundred metres away several hundred Iraqis were guarding the gates of the governor's office, trying to ensure no that Americans entered. "No, no to America; no, no to Israel. Yes, yes to unity; yes, yes to Islam," some were chanting http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,943073,00.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 29 01:49:13 2003 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:49:13 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] stay outa dodge References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030428235826.019431e8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <002401c30e13$13e75100$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> From: "Gabriel Gudding" > Keep Out Of Town Hall, Kut Tells US Troops > Jonathan Steele in Kut > The Guardian > Friday 25 April 2003 > Self-appointed Shia ruler issues decrees from barricaded building > First the marines tried to get this dusty town's 200 police officers back > to work, but 100 dropped out after local people warned them that only > traitors collaborated with America. > [etc.] Just a +little+ bit out-of-date, surely, Gabe. Even the below is yesterday's news: US arrests bogus Baghdad mayor Jonathan Steele in Baghdad and Vikram Dodd Monday April 28, 2003 The Guardian "In a further securing of the US political hold in the country yesterday, a cleric who seized the town hall in the city of Kut was also forced out. Abbas Abu Ragef was said to have left after being threatened with arrest by the US, which marginalised him by working with other officials to organise Iraqi-American patrols and restore electricity and water supplies." http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,944803,00.html If you must spam us with Guardian URLs, please at least spam us with current Guardian URLS. Some of actually +read+ the bloody paper. Robin (Incidentally, in case anyone's interested, if you input "Kut" into the Guardian search engine, you'll get 64 hits. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/ ... and type in "Kut" in the Keyword field. It's probably most pertinent to "Sort by Date", and work backwards.) From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Apr 29 02:12:52 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01:12:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030429011114.01baa6d8@mail.ilstu.edu> sorry robin it was news to me, been away few days. and have cleared my postings with list moderator, so at least from his perspective it's not spam. if he changes his mind, i'm happy to comply. thanks for your kind input robin.g _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Assistant Professor of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 29 02:34:23 2003 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:34:23 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] stay outa dodge References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030428235826.019431e8@mail.ilstu.edu> <002401c30e13$13e75100$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> Message-ID: <00e001c30e19$65e3b920$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> Three little tips for aspiring Aspiring NetRevolutionaries. 1) Try prefacing every google web-search with the term "Indymedia" -- thus, try "indymedia kut". This will produce a few pieces slightly more edged than the Guardian (though the Guardian pieces tend to be reported on the various Inymedia outlets). But it is a useful filter. Alternatively, try: http://www.indymedia.org/ ... or: http://uk.indymedia.org/ 2) Add the al Jazeera site in English to your favourites: http://english.aljazeera.net/ (unless it's currently hacked) 3) Consult http://www.aeronautics.ru/index.htm ... a subset in English of the Russian intelligence site. Whether you believe them or not, the Russians seem to currently have a more open-door policy in publishing current intelligence reports than either the Americans or the British. Which is rather sad and ironic, I think. (unless it's currently hacked) This has several advantages: It will increase your streetcred immensely. It will save those of us who have already come on all the URLs listed being bored quite so silly. It will be good for the soul. Admittedly, in the current climate in the US, it might be a little more risky to do such things than here in Britland, but hey, that's life. Robin (Who is getting thoroughly fed-up with being told how to suck eggs) From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Apr 29 02:55:43 2003 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:55:43 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030429011114.01baa6d8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <00ea01c30e1c$604c6b80$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> Gabe: > sorry robin it was news to me, been away few days. and have cleared my > postings with list moderator, so at least from his perspective it's not > spam. if he changes his mind, i'm happy to comply. thanks for your kind > input robin.g See my follow-up, Gabe, which crossed with this. Politically, if it has to be said, I'm mostly on your side. But dear god in heaven (he said, in a somewhat bad-tempered awake-all-night tone) I +pay+ to read the Guardian. (I even read the bloody BUSINESS pages when I'm particularly bored.) Specifically, I pay 55p a day and ?1 on Saturday. (On Sundays, I read the Observer. Same difference, really.) So when yet +another+ URL to an article I read days before, turns up ... But if something comes up in the Guardian that seems significant, I sure as hell check it out five ways from Sunday. Not always, because too many things are happenning to follow in detail. I like the paper -- I mean, it's the one I READ. But I don't entirely trust them. Or anyone. Especially in the current fog of disinformation. Well, OK, this might be a personal objection on my part, but surely ANYONE who's tracking this stuff could come up with more. I admit, given my somewhat leftist political orientation, I'm not particularly inclined to bother with Fox News (or Sky News, as it is here), or listen to Rush Limbaugh. Though I do occasionally check Insight on the News. But who are you talking to, Gabe? Either you're talking to stones or you're preaching to the converted. Either way, it can get terminally boring to listen to sometimes. Sorry. Robin From dweinstock at adelphia.net Tue Apr 29 08:24:06 2003 From: dweinstock at adelphia.net (David Weinstock) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:24:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Introduction References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030428234901.011b4a38@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <001601c30e4a$3a40f450$a7ae3018@davidbfhh1hlvc> My name is David Weinstock, in Middlebury, Vermont. Some of you know me from Cafe-Blue, another list on this server. I am a copyeditor and columnist at a local newspaper. I teach a weekly poetry workshop in Middlebury and miscellaneous writing classes around the state. I'm working on a collection of poems titled "Physical Findings." I look forward to reading messages from the group. David Weinstock 240 Woodland Park Middlebury, VT 05753-1356 home 802-388-7523 / cell 802-353-7086 work 802-388-4944 AIM: dweinstock05753 Web: http://users.adelphia.net/~dweinstock From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 29 08:39:33 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:39:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ali Baba, Haram In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030428234901.011b4a38@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3EAE3A45.5365.10F643@localhost> On 28 Apr 2003 at 23:50, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > Saturday 26 April 2003 > America was at the centre of a new human rights row last night after four > alleged Iraqi thieves were paraded naked in a Baghdad park by US troops. > The degraded prisoners had the words "Ali Baba, Haram'' - "Thief, Unclean" > - scrawled in Arabic on their chests. > The humiliating spectacle of young men running to hide their shame ...<< Yeah, right -- the US Army has SO many kids in it who read and speak and write Arabic! Besides, can't you see the agenda-driven goofiness of the prose in this? "The humiliating spectacle of ... to hide their shame ..." It's propaganda garbage, Gabe -- you know it's bullshit and everyone you show it to knows it's propaganda garbage. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 29 09:18:59 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:18:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] for white liberals who think they down wit' d' brothahs In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030428233203.0187bbf8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3EAE4383.1426.350F83@localhost> On 28 Apr 2003 at 23:37, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > The eyes of mine have seen the glory come of serious people: It is pounding > outside the ages where the grapes of the rage are jarred up;...<< This is painfully icky -- perhaps something left over from your 7th grade notebooks, Gabe? "Yowza"? LOL! Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From hruggier at localnet.com Tue Apr 29 09:52:19 2003 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:52:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) References: <004201c30ddd$88a8c040$0f6bfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3EAE8393.FDC8414E@localnet.com> Here's an exciting addition: Rod Steiger - he's a poet but he'll only agree to publish if the purblisher lets him use another name - his book may be out there and we'll never know (like, sure, the publisher agreed to that). Bob Grumman wrote: > > i'm still waiting for shatner to publish a volume of poetry. > > but until then, there's this. > > > > > > www.shatnerology.com/poetry.html > > > > jason > > I doubt he's capable of writing anything as bad as what's at this site. > Actually, I read one of the sci fi novels attributed to him. I found it > quite good. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From sellwein at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 09:55:37 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:55:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] for white liberals who think they down wit' d' brothahs Message-ID: :o) sorry, Gabe, lol... On 28 Apr 2003 at 23:37, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > The eyes of mine have seen the glory come of serious people: It is pounding > outside the ages where the grapes of the rage are jarred up;...<< This is painfully icky -- perhaps something left over from your 7th grade notebooks, Gabe? "Yowza"? LOL! Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Apr 29 11:07:42 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:07:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nimoy Message-ID: If anyone else criticizes the poetry of Leonard Nimoy, I'm going to paralyze him with the Vulcan neck pinch. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Apr 29 11:13:21 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:13:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen Message-ID: I literally looked up from a Rod McKuen poem in my Intro to Poetry text as I was preparing for class when I saw the discussion of celebrity poets and McKuen's name. The poem I had just read was McKuen's "Thoghts on Capital Punishment" (p. 352, in Longman's Intro). It is possibly the worst poem in the English language, bad in ways beyond counting. I have another old Intro to poetry text in which the author, Lewis Turco, Ithink, shows how to write a McKuen poem in three easy steps. Such poems can be produced in minutes and are indistinguishable from genuine McKuen poems. Paul Lake --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Apr 29 11:42:45 2003 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:42:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McKuen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3EAE6535.32080.B8B39F@localhost> On 29 Apr 2003 at 10:13, Paul Lake wrote: > I have another old Intro to poetry text in which the author, Lewis Turco, > Ithink, shows how to write a McKuen poem in three easy steps. Such poems > can be produced in minutes and are indistinguishable from genuine McKuen > poems. Much like poems by ... nah, too easy. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From elemenope at icubed.com Tue Apr 29 01:15:31 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:15:31 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark Smirk-heart of Brat-sedition In-Reply-To: <200304290438.h3T4c3ST004715@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304290438.h3T4c3ST004715@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: When clerks and bankers and janitors leapt screaming from WTC flaming towers and fireman upon fireman vanished in the smoke And then the President told the world there in the Ground Zero dust what America would do about our criminal enemies and then did it in Afghanistan and Iraq From the luxury box of his ivory tower, Professor Gabriel Gudding pontificated the dark hate-America-first smirk-heart of brat-sedition: At 12:38 AM -0400 4/29/03, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: >The eyes of mine have seen the glory come of serious people: It is pounding >outside >the ages where the grapes of the rage are jarred up; It has loosened the >prophetic bolts of his items, Its truth is marching ignited. I have seen in >watch-fires hundreds of fields that they surrounded and that they had >bolted an altar in the evening and that there was dew and dew dampens; I >can read its oration righteous by the ham-colored lamps that indicate by >means of lights: Its day is marching ignited. I have read an ardent writing >of gospels in rows polished by hard metals: "as you fling my contemners, so >with you my tolerance beat up; Leave the hero, he who kept up with the >woman and acclimated the serpent with a heel-head, since the ignited God is >marching." It has sounded ahead the tuba that never will call in an otiose >fashion; >It is sifting outside the hearts of men before his judgment-seat: The old >is fast, my aurora, the young is slow to say "be jubilant, my feet." Our God >is marching ignited. In the beauty of the irises Christ it was born through >the sea, with a glory in its chest that transfigures you and myself: Then he >died to make holy men, let to us die to make free men, whereas the ignited >God is marching. > >Yowza, the eyes of mine have seen the glory come from whitey. He is beating >outside the wine press, where the grapes of the rage are warehoused, such >that he hath loosened prophetic bolts from the broadsword of horror, their >truth is marching ignited. I have seen in knocking-blazes of hundreds of >meadows that they surrounded and that they have bolted an altar in the >evening and that there is dew and it dampens, I can read its oration >righteous in the beef-colored night and that the lights indicate by means >of energy in the lamps, its day is marching ignited. I have read an ardent >writing of the Gospel in ardent rows of the hard and ardent metal. And as >you give lots of money and weapons to my contemners, so you my tolerance >will deal with, the hero takes the woman and crushes the serpent's head >with Italians, our God is marching ignited. He has sounded outside the tuba >that is very loud. He has waked up the dulled pain the Earth with a high >blow of a rock my soul is fast to answer that our feet are indeed very >happy, Our God is >marching ignited. In the whiteness of the irises it was born through the >lip-covered sea, with a glory in its chest we are marching the brightness >toward the outside of you and myself and as he died to make holy men let to >us die to make free men, our ignited God. It is coming like the glory in >the morning in the wave, he is wisdom to the powerful, he is succour to the >brave citizen, such that the world will be his ottoman and the soul of Time >his Negro, >our God is marching ignited. > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com Tue Apr 29 13:26:17 2003 From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 03 13:26:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: <200304291730.h3THUDas114774@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> I just saw the press release about the Shakespeare tour from the NEA. __Throughout__ the chairman of the NEA was referred to as "Chairman Gioia" - not once - but at least six times. Does anyone recall previous chairpeople of the NEA being exclusively referred to as "chair(wo)man"? Richard From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 29 14:16:25 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:16:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: <9c.30ad52bc.2be01b79@cs.com> I'm a little more concerned by this quote from Mr. Valenti: "There is in all recorded history nothing to equal or surpass Shakespeare," stated Jack Valenti. "Unless you know, read and hear his magic stories there is a vacancy in your life. This is why bringing Shakespeare to small and mid-size communities in all the fifty states is a great gift to America by the National Endowment for the Arts. Somewhere in this loving land there is another Gwyneth Paltrow or Denzel Washington who will set a movie on fire with Shakespeare's poetic prose." Poetic prose? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Apr 29 14:27:51 2003 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:27:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD759905479FB3@mail.ripon.edu> Forget about the poetic prose, I say. I'm more worried about that vacancy in my life due to the fact that I've never seen a performance of *Pericles Prince of Tyre*. And I'm a little worried about *Titus Andronicus*, too. I know we studied it in college, but it seems my underlinings cease somewhere in Act II, so I suspect the worst. I knew there was *something* missing in my life, but until now didn't know what. When may I expect Gywneth to arrive in Ripon WI to perform either of these plays? Or is she making a movie version? Whatever, I'm quite sure she'll set the place on fire one way or another. David Graham, somewhere in this loving land. . . . ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > I'm a little more concerned by this quote from Mr. Valenti: > > "There is in all recorded history nothing to equal or surpass > Shakespeare," stated Jack Valenti. "Unless you know, read and hear his > magic stories there is a vacancy in your life. This is why bringing > Shakespeare to small and mid-size communities in all the fifty states is a > great gift to America by the National Endowment for the Arts. Somewhere in > this loving land there is another Gwyneth Paltrow or Denzel Washington who > will set a movie on fire with Shakespeare's poetic prose." > > Poetic prose? From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 29 14:29:18 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:29:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: A.Word.A.Day--eristic Message-ID: <000e01c30e7d$3e9d4160$2dd3d23f@computer> No extra charge for this one. Great quotation, the second one--reminds me why I never really became a full-time academic. Any resemblance to any person or persons dead or alive on this list must be some sort of delusion. Hal "A sudden silence in the middle of a conversation suddenly brings us back to essentials: it reveals how dearly we must pay for the invention of speech." --E. M. Cioran Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard -----Original Message----- From: Wordsmith [mailto:wsmith at wordsmith.org] Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 12:01 AM To: linguaphile at wordsmith.org Subject: A.Word.A.Day--eristic eristic (i-RIS-tik) adjective Characterized by controversy or disputes. noun 1. One who engages in arguments or disputes; a controversialist. 2. The art of disputation. [From Greek eristikos, from erizein (to wrangle), from eris (strife). Eris was the goddess of discord in Greek mythology. The Romans called her Discordia.] "Finally, Truth and Progress exhibits both the dazzle and idiosyncrasy of Rorty's literary style and eristic habits--the sharp insider wit, the hyperactive thumb-nailing of other thinkers to hawk fresh images of their thought ..." Carlin Romano; Books & the Arts: Rortyism for Beginners; The Nation (New York); Jul 27, 1998. "Endlessly questioning nuances of meaning in front of exasperated colleagues, or calling attention to inappropriate administrative power, might make you the star of the show in Plato's Academy or Aristotle's Lyceum. But is that too obnoxiously eristic for the faculty meeting, a ritual most characterized by the common desire of its participants to see it end promptly, so everyone can go home and forget about disliked colleagues?" Carlin Romano; On Collegiality, College Style; The Chronicle of Higher Education (Washington, DC); May 26, 2000. This week's theme: words to describe people. Sponsored by Think Right Now! International: Depressed? Anxious? Unmotivated? If your willpower & persistence always fizzle out, see the new paradigm in personal growth. http://mcssl.com/app/adtrack.asp?AdID=17954 AND KnowledgeNews, the weekly email magazine for people who never stop learning. Get a free trial subscription now at http://knowledgenews.net/awadsub.htm ............................................................................ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards. -Lewis Carroll, mathematician and writer (1832-1898) AWAD on your Website: http://wordsmith.org/awad/add.html Gift subscription: http://wordsmith.org/awad/gift.html Bulletin board: http://wordsmith.org/board AWAD archives: http://wordsmith.org/awad/archives.html Pronunciation: http://wordsmith.org/words/eristic.wav http://wordsmith.org/words/eristic.ram From wjbat at conncoll.edu Tue Apr 29 14:45:07 2003 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:45:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: A.Word.A.Day--eristic In-Reply-To: <000e01c30e7d$3e9d4160$2dd3d23f@computer> Message-ID: <20030429144507.028713@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Ou sont les fnords d'antan? Halvard Johnson wrote: >Subject: A.Word.A.Day--eristic > > >eristic (i-RIS-tik) adjective > > Characterized by controversy or disputes. > >noun > > 1. One who engages in arguments or disputes; a controversialist. > > 2. The art of disputation. > >[From Greek eristikos, from erizein (to wrangle), from eris (strife). >Eris was the goddess of discord in Greek mythology. The Romans called >her Discordia.] > > "Finally, Truth and Progress exhibits both the dazzle and idiosyncrasy of > Rorty's literary style and eristic habits--the sharp insider wit, the > hyperactive thumb-nailing of other thinkers to hawk fresh images of their > thought ..." > Carlin Romano; Books & the Arts: Rortyism for Beginners; The Nation (New > York); Jul 27, 1998. > > "Endlessly questioning nuances of meaning in front of exasperated > colleagues, or calling attention to inappropriate administrative power, > might make you the star of the show in Plato's Academy or Aristotle's > Lyceum. But is that too obnoxiously eristic for the faculty meeting, a > ritual most characterized by the common desire of its participants to > see it end promptly, so everyone can go home and forget about disliked > colleagues?" > Carlin Romano; On Collegiality, College Style; The Chronicle of Higher > Education (Washington, DC); May 26, 2000. > >This week's theme: words to describe people. > >Sponsored by Think Right Now! International: Depressed? Anxious? Unmotivated? >If your willpower & persistence always fizzle out, see the new paradigm in >personal growth. http://mcssl.com/app/adtrack.asp?AdID=17954 > >AND >KnowledgeNews, the weekly email magazine for people who never stop learning. >Get a free trial subscription now at http://knowledgenews.net/awadsub.htm > >............................................................................ >It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards. -Lewis Carroll, >mathematician and writer (1832-1898) > >AWAD on your Website: http://wordsmith.org/awad/add.html >Gift subscription: http://wordsmith.org/awad/gift.html >Bulletin board: http://wordsmith.org/board >AWAD archives: http://wordsmith.org/awad/archives.html > >Pronunciation: >http://wordsmith.org/words/eristic.wav >http://wordsmith.org/words/eristic.ram > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------ Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu The wall between where we are? and the Self is called the mind. --S. J. Bharat From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Apr 29 15:11:15 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:11:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA Shakespeare Message-ID: Here's an article (a somewhat snarky one) from yesterday's Post on the new NEA Shakespeare program. Paul Lake Forsooth, a Politician Dana Gioia, poet, business executive and now President Bush's chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts, says he wants to take politics out of his agency, which for many years has attracted political barbs more successfully than federal dollars. But don't be lulled by his stated goal into assuming that Gioia, who took over in January, doesn't understand Washington's primary sport. Engaging, talented, a scourge of elitism but a champion of quality, Gioia seems ideally suited to prove the NEA's value and, as he hopes, increase its budget. If he fails at the latter task -- which seems likely -- it will be due to forces larger than himself. Start, though, with the political smarts. It's not just that Gioia, for his first ambitious NEA project, has adapted what you might call the B-2 Stealth strategy for winning congressional backing -- that is, send a contract (or, in Gioia's case, a Shakespeare drama) into as many districts as possible. Gioia also has found a way to capitalize, playfully, on the freedom-fries mood in Congress to justify his choice of the Bard as featured artist. "He is the most widely performed playwright, as far as we can tell, in every country in the world besides France," Gioia recently noted, "which is sort of a recommendation in and of itself." Gioia took the occasion of Shakespeare's 439th presumed birthday last week to officially announce the 15-month Shakespeare in American Communities program, which he called the largest tour of Shakespeare drama in U.S. history and the most complex endeavor the NEA has taken on since its Great Society birth four decades ago. It's a wonderful idea. Six regional theater companies, selected on the basis of artistic excellence and experience in educational programs, will bring drama to more than 100 cities and (Gioia hopes; this is not yet firm) military bases in all 50 states. They will work in 1,000 high schools with students who, Gioia said, in most cases have never seen live drama. The goal, he said, is to prove that "excellence in art and democratic outreach are not incompatible." "We want to take an artistic community that tends to be cosmopolitan and metropolitan and a population that's scattered across a continent and bring them together without any sacrifice of excellence," Gioia said. So Maryland can expect the Chicago Shakespeare Theater in Bel Air in October and the Aquila Theatre Company in Frederick and Frostburg next April. In Virginia, Aquila is scheduled to visit Hampton and McLean in October, while the Guthrie Theater will travel to Norfolk next April and the Acting Company will tour Richmond (date not yet set). Gioia (though not a politician!) casts the project as a revival of a great American tradition. In the 19th century, he said, small companies performed Shakespeare in mining towns and river towns and anywhere in between. On log cabin shelves, there were often just two books: the Bible and Shakespeare (rarely Moliere). He hopes the endeavor will generate such enthusiasm that "we'll be compelled by Congress" to treat it as a pilot program. "If we succeed with this," he said on C-SPAN the other day, "I'm hoping that Congress will increase our funds so that we can do similar programs across each of the arts." On the surface, there seems no reason why such a lovely dream might not come true. The endowment's budget ($116.5 million, of which about $3 million will go to the Shakespeare project) remains far below its peak of a decade ago, but it has risen very gradually in recent years. Unlike during the Reagan years, or again, when Newt Gingrich was in full cry, the Republican establishment is not gunning for the endowment, either as an unwarranted federal intrusion into the private sphere or as a corrupt sponsor of salacious art. Indeed, President Bush has proposed steady funding for the NEA, and Laura Bush will serve (along with Jack Valenti, the Motion Picture Association of America chief ) as an honorary chairman of the Shakespeare-to-the-heartland program. So Gioia's aspirations are likely to be blocked not by direct opposition but by Bush's tax cuts -- by the gradual reduction of fiscal oxygen to which so many government programs will succumb. Deficits are rising, the population is aging, and the president is seeking to lock in a series of tax cuts that will guarantee fewer and fewer resources to the government in coming years. In that context, as education and health care and the military compete for fewer dollars, no one will have to oppose funding for the arts; the funding simply won't be there, no matter how apolitically political Gioia and his successors prove to be. By the time Shakespeare turns 449, the NEA may be lucky to afford a cake. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 29 16:41:22 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release In-Reply-To: <200304291730.h3THUDas114774@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <20030429204122.69073.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> What quibbling. What silliness. I suppose you prefer "chairperson" or the politically correct "chair?" If you want to attack Gioia, at least do it with class. Counting titles indeed . . . at least he wasn't referred to as "his highness" or "the royal" or "head cheese." Sheesh. Jeff Newberry DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com wrote:I just saw the press release about the Shakespeare tour from the NEA. __Throughout__ the chairman of the NEA was referred to as "Chairman Gioia" - not once - but at least six times. Does anyone recall previous chairpeople of the NEA being exclusively referred to as "chair(wo)man"? Richard _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 29 16:48:06 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:48:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release References: <200304291730.h3THUDas114774@northrelay01.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c30e90$a3c6cc60$7b53fea9@j1c1k6> > I just saw the press release about the Shakespeare tour > from the NEA. __Throughout__ the chairman of the NEA > was referred to as "Chairman Gioia" - not once - but > at least six times. Thanks goodness--ONE good thing has come from Gioia's becoming head of the NEA. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Tue Apr 29 18:15:03 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:15:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Marie Ponsot Message-ID: <1ee.7bf8d16.2be05367@aol.com> Subj: Marie Ponsot Date: 4/29/03 5:05:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com (The Knopf Poetry Center) To: JforJames at aol.com A poem by Marie Ponsot, who turns eighty-two this month. ****************************************** Springing In a skiff on a sunrisen lake we are watchers. Swimming aimlessly is luxury, just as walking Loudly up a shallow stream is. As we lean over the deep well, we whisper. Friends at hearths are drawn to the one warm air; strangers meet on beaches drawn to the one wet sea. What wd it be to be water, one body of water (what water is is another mystery). (We are water divided.) It wd be a self without walls, with surface tension, specific gravity, a local exchange between bedrock and cloud of falling and rising, rising to fall, falling to rise. ****************************************** From JforJames at aol.com Tue Apr 29 18:37:20 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:37:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: <110.22f99459.2be058a0@aol.com> In a message dated 4/29/03 4:42:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: > at least he wasn't referred to as "his highness" or "the royal" or "head > cheese." Sheesh. Jeff Newberry > > DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com wrote:I just saw the press release about the > Shakespeare tour > from the NEA. __Throughout__ the chairman of the NEA > was referred to as "Chairman Gioia" - not once - but > at least six times. I kinda like it...rings to me with Chairman Mao...we need a long march...fractious and disaffected by the excesses of capitalist commodification, art needs a strong leader. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Tue Apr 29 18:54:58 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:54:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Green Eggs & Spam Message-ID: <141.105becbe.2be05cc2@aol.com> In a message dated 4/29/03 2:15:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > have cleared my > postings with list moderator, so at least from his perspective it's not > spam. As most of your know, I try to be hands-off...but I certainly don't sanction posting to this list URLs (or long posts) entirely unrelated to poetry. I can't be the 24/7/365 policeperson of this list...and i don't want to be...I hope that, in time, some (Gabe) will see that their extraneous posts are largely without interest to a list called, last I looked, NewPoetry. Jim Finnegan From sellwein at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 19:01:58 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:01:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: I'm sure he is worth his weight in gold. - Deborah ************ In a message dated 4/29/03 4:42:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: > at least he wasn't referred to as "his highness" or "the royal" or "head > cheese." Sheesh. Jeff Newberry > > DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com wrote:I just saw the press release about the > Shakespeare tour > from the NEA. __Throughout__ the chairman of the NEA > was referred to as "Chairman Gioia" - not once - but > at least six times. I kinda like it...rings to me with Chairman Mao...we need a long march...fractious and disaffected by the excesses of capitalist commodification, art needs a strong leader. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From JforJames at aol.com Tue Apr 29 19:04:14 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:04:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Nimoy Message-ID: <6.fcb365d.2be05eee@aol.com> In a message dated 4/29/03 11:13:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > If anyone else criticizes the poetry of Leonard Nimoy, I'm going to paralyze > him with the Vulcan neck pinch. Paul, I'm shocked. I never before associated you with the neo-neurophysiological school of critcism. Finnegan From sellwein at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 19:08:16 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:08:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: ROTFLOL... sure, then I woke up. Deborah **************** I just saw the press release about the Shakespeare tour from the NEA. __Throughout__ the chairman of the NEA was referred to as "Chairman Gioia" - not once - but at least six times. Does anyone recall previous chairpeople of the NEA being exclusively referred to as "chair(wo)man"? Richard _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From sellwein at hotmail.com Tue Apr 29 19:11:22 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 19:11:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: I think he would make a good president, he reminds me a bit of Gore. - Deborah ************* Forget about the poetic prose, I say. I'm more worried about that vacancy in my life due to the fact that I've never seen a performance of *Pericles Prince of Tyre*. And I'm a little worried about *Titus Andronicus*, too. I know we studied it in college, but it seems my underlinings cease somewhere in Act II, so I suspect the worst. I knew there was *something* missing in my life, but until now didn't know what. When may I expect Gywneth to arrive in Ripon WI to perform either of these plays? Or is she making a movie version? Whatever, I'm quite sure she'll set the place on fire one way or another. David Graham, somewhere in this loving land. . . . ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > I'm a little more concerned by this quote from Mr. Valenti: > > "There is in all recorded history nothing to equal or surpass > Shakespeare," stated Jack Valenti. "Unless you know, read and hear his > magic stories there is a vacancy in your life. This is why bringing > Shakespeare to small and mid-size communities in all the fifty states is a > great gift to America by the National Endowment for the Arts. Somewhere in > this loving land there is another Gwyneth Paltrow or Denzel Washington who > will set a movie on fire with Shakespeare's poetic prose." > > Poetic prose? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Deborah Elizabeth Russell, Artist/Poet Post Poems | Inside | Cityslide Shadow Poetry | Parallels Words For The Wind _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Apr 29 19:48:10 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:48:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release References: <110.22f99459.2be058a0@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EAF0F3A.72F2FA10@earthlink.net> JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/29/03 4:42:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: > > > at least he wasn't referred to as "his highness" or "the royal" or "head > > cheese." Sheesh. Jeff Newberry > > > > DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com wrote:I just saw the press release about the > > Shakespeare tour > > from the NEA. __Throughout__ the chairman of the NEA > > was referred to as "Chairman Gioia" - not once - but > > at least six times. > I kinda like it...rings to me with Chairman Mao...we need > a long march...fractious and disaffected by the excesses > of capitalist commodification, art needs a strong leader. What color is the little book we hold on high? - Jim From JforJames at aol.com Tue Apr 29 20:50:15 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:50:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: In a message dated 4/29/03 7:14:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sellwein at hotmail.com writes: > little worried about *Titus Andronicus*, too. I > know we studied it in college, but it seems my underlinings cease somewhere > in Act II, so I suspect the worst. David, I may be making this up, but didn't they do a movie version of _Titus_ a coupla years ago... staring Anthony Hopkins, who is always ready to be bathed in faux gore? Finnegan From jpjones at ihug.com.au Tue Apr 29 21:11:33 2003 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (jpjones at ihug.com.au) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:11:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: > In a message dated 4/29/03 7:14:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > sellwein at hotmail.com writes: > >little worried about *Titus Andronicus*, too. I > know we studied it in college, but it seems my underlinings cease somewhere > in Act II, so I suspect the worst. > David, I may be making this up, but didn't they > do a movie version of _Titus_ a coupla years ago... > staring Anthony Hopkins, who is always ready > to be bathed in faux gore? > Finnegan Yes, 'they' did - directed by Julie Taymoor, who also directed the Frida movie that was around recently. It was highly stylised gore. Cheers, Jill From JforJames at aol.com Tue Apr 29 21:16:30 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:16:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Titus Message-ID: <14.101c9ac4.2be07dee@aol.com> http://www.culturekiosque.com/nouveau/cinema/rhevideo2.html Titus Andronicus is certainly as intense, in its way, as anything in Shakespeare, but it was a very early work, and a clumsy one in some ways compared to his later achievements. Its intensity springs from Shakespeare's refusal to draw the line anywhere, no matter what - like Wes Craven coming up with ever-more-inventive ways for Freddie Krueger to off teenagers. It's very hard to find the humanity in anyone in this play - even sympathetic characters like poor Lavinia are mostly ciphers, and figures like Aaron, and Tamora's sons Alarbus (Raz Degan) and Chiron (Jonathan Rhys-Meyers) are so perversely evil as to defy belief. Everything seems calculated to produce maximal horror without regard for integrity of character. From dicka at optonline.net Tue Apr 29 21:28:31 2003 From: dicka at optonline.net (Richard Attanasio) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:28:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "Chairman Gioia" In-Reply-To: <200304292213.h3TMD2ST014480@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <0D877EF4-7AAB-11D7-BF45-000393DE187A@optonline.net> On Tuesday, April 29, 2003, at 06:13 PM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > What quibbling. What silliness. I suppose you prefer "chairperson" > or the politically correct "chair?" If you want to attack Gioia, at > least do it with class. Counting titles indeed . . . at least he > wasn't referred to as "his highness" or "the royal" or "head cheese." > Sheesh. Jeff Newberry No Jeffrey, your supposition is off by a (conservative) mile. Mr. Gioia, or just plain Gioia, would have been fine, after the first time. The last person I recall insisting on the honorific "Chairman" was, ummh, Mao Tse Tung. If he was before your time, you can look him up. Now I'm not suggesting DG insisted on being so addressed (I'm not attacking Gioia here), I thought it was amusing that SOMEBODY thought to write it that way. Richard > From Thom424 at aol.com Tue Apr 29 22:06:07 2003 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:06:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] TITUS Message-ID: <146.1049b276.2be0898f@aol.com> Go to: for Roger Ebert's review of TITUS [and for links to 125 more reviews of TITUS go to: http://www.mrqe.com/lookup?^Titus+(1999) ]. A great movie review resource/website is: http://mrqe.com/ (Get it: mrqe.com = movie review query engine = marquee!) Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 29 22:11:44 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:11:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: <12a.28c9bfd9.2be08ae0@cs.com> In a message dated 4/29/2003 5:38:51 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > I kinda like it...rings to me with Chairman Mao...we need > a long march...fractious and disaffected by the excesses > of capitalist commodification, art needs a strong leader. > Finnegan > ______________________ It sounds better than "Head Gioia" or "Chair Gioia." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 29 22:13:53 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:13:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Nimoy Message-ID: <111.230adaba.2be08b61@cs.com> In a message dated 4/29/2003 6:06:10 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > Paul, I'm shocked. I never before associated you with > the neo-neurophysiological school of critcism. > Finnegan > _________________ You haven't read Paul on Turner's "The Neural Lyre." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Apr 29 22:15:43 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:15:43 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA press release Message-ID: <12f.28e6a821.2be08bcf@cs.com> In a message dated 4/29/2003 7:52:15 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > >little worried about *Titus Andronicus*, too. I > > know we studied it in college, but it seems my underlinings cease > somewhere > > in Act II, so I suspect the worst. > David, I may be making this up, but didn't they > do a movie version of _Titus_ a coupla years ago... > staring Anthony Hopkins, who is always ready > to be bathed in faux gore? > Finnegan Listen, nobody could sit through that one! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Apr 29 22:20:06 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:20:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "Chairman Gioia" References: <0D877EF4-7AAB-11D7-BF45-000393DE187A@optonline.net> Message-ID: <005c01c30ebf$058a54c0$1809fea9@j1c1k6> > On Tuesday, April 29, 2003, at 06:13 PM, > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > > > What quibbling. What silliness. I suppose you prefer "chairperson" > > or the politically correct "chair?" If you want to attack Gioia, at > > least do it with class. Counting titles indeed . . . at least he > > wasn't referred to as "his highness" or "the royal" or "head cheese." > > Sheesh. Jeff Newberry > > No Jeffrey, your supposition is off by a (conservative) mile. Mr. > Gioia, or just plain Gioia, would have been fine, after the first time. Why, then, the reference to "chair(wo)men?" I agree that the repetition is absurd--and even that any use of such honorifics in news stories, even the first time, is pretentious. Identifying him as the chairman of the NEA is fine, but calling him "Chairman Gioia" is dopey. --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Apr 29 22:32:24 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 21:32:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "Chairman Gioia" In-Reply-To: <0D877EF4-7AAB-11D7-BF45-000393DE187A@optonline.net> Message-ID: Ah, but there are things that are important beyond all this fiddle. . . Let's get back to trashing Leonard Nimoy. Or, here's a thought, we could talk about Dana Gioia's poetry! Rough Country Give me a landscape made of obstacles, of steep hills and jutting glacial rock, where the low-running streams are quick to flood the grassy fields and bottomlands. A place no engineers can master?where the roads must twist like tendrils up the mountainside on narrow cliffs where boulders block the way Where tall black trunks of lightning-scalded pine push through the tangled woods to make a roost for hawks and swarming crows. And sharp inclines where twisting through the thorn-thick underbrush, scratched and exhausted, one turns suddenly to find an unexpected waterfall, not half a mile from the nearest road, a spot so hard to reach that no one comes? a hiding place, a shrine for dragonflies and nesting jays, a sign that there is still one piece of property that won't be owned -- Dana Gioia. *The Gods of Winter*. 1991. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Tue Apr 29 22:49:43 2003 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:49:43 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "Chairman Gioia" Message-ID: In a message dated 4/29/2003 10:33:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > a sign that there is still > one piece of property that won't be owned > deep. prosy. prosydeep. lightning scalded prosydeep. lightning scalded author's message prosydeep. beam me up Jeffrey Levine not chair of anything -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Apr 29 22:54:31 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:54:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Two by Mao Tse-tung: "Snow" and "Chang-sha" Message-ID: Snow Northern landscape, Thousand miles around covered by ice, Ten thousand miles under snowdrifts. On both sides of the Great Wall, I see vast wastes; Up and down the Great River Suddenly the torrents are still; Mountains wind around like silver serpents, High headlands ramble about like waxen elephants, On the verge of challenging heaven. A sunny day is best For watching the red against the white: Extraordinary enchantment. The rivers and mountains have this special charm That inspires countless heroes to great deeds. Pity the First Sovereign and the Martial Emperor Had small talent for literature, And the founding fathers of T'ang and Sung Lacked both grace and charm. In his own generation--favored by heaven-- Genghis Khan Knew only how to bend the bow, bringing down the great vulture. All these are gone now, To single out the men of high character, We must look to now, the present. Chang-sha Alone I stand in autumn cold, As Hsiang River goes north, past Orange Island. I see a thousand mountains red-tinted, Forest after forest dyed deep red, Wide river blue right through, A hundred boats fight the current; Eagles strike out in the lofty sky, Fish eddy in the shallows, A host of creatures vies for freedom in the frost-nipped ait. Bewildered by this immensity, I ask: "This vast expanse, this great earth, Who is master of it all?" I have led a hundred companions here: I think back to those many months and years, those lofty plans; We were schoolboys, and still young, With an air of strength and of life, The spirit of scholars, Quick to censure, upright in manner. We pointed to this river, that mountain, Stirring ourselves with words: To us, the marquisates of old are dung. Do you remember, How, in the middle of the river, striking against the waves, We almost toppled our fleet little boat? --Mao Tse-tung, tr. Eugene Eoyang fr. *Sunflower Splendor: Three Thousand Years of Chinese Poetry* [Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1975] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bardo at optonline.net Tue Apr 29 23:25:27 2003 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:25:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "Chairman Gioia" References: Message-ID: <01f901c30ec8$25c71d00$6d94c044@MULDER> Give me? You asked for it: STOUTHEARTED MEN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Give me some men who are Stouthearted Men who will fight for the right they adore. Start me with ten, who are Stouthearted Men and I'll soon give you ten thousand more, Oh! Shoulder to shoulder and bolder and bolder they grow as they go to the fore! Then__there's nothing in the world can halt or mar a plan, When__Stouthearted Men__can stick together man to man! Words by Oscar Hammerstein II =============================================== Good God! & once he possesses this angular Eden, what does Gioia propose to do? Rally the Sherpas? Chameleon away? Rendezvous with Shelley on Mont Blanc? Mad in pursuit and in possession so; Had, having, and in quest to have, extreme; A bliss in proof, and proved, a very woe; Before, a joy proposed; behind, a dream. (A paean? A pain. A wooden nickel.) Dan, raggin' ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 10:32 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "Chairman Gioia" > Ah, but there are things that are important beyond all this fiddle. . . > Let's get back to trashing Leonard Nimoy. > > Or, here's a thought, we could talk about Dana Gioia's poetry! > > > Rough Country > > Give me a landscape made of obstacles, > of steep hills and jutting glacial rock, > where the low-running streams are quick to flood > the grassy fields and bottomlands. > A place > no engineers can master?where the roads > must twist like tendrils up the mountainside > on narrow cliffs where boulders block the way > Where tall black trunks of lightning-scalded pine > push through the tangled woods to make a roost > for hawks and swarming crows. > > And sharp inclines > where twisting through the thorn-thick underbrush, > scratched and exhausted, one turns suddenly > to find an unexpected waterfall, > not half a mile from the nearest road, > a spot so hard to reach that no one comes? > a hiding place, a shrine for dragonflies > and nesting jays, a sign that there is still > one piece of property that won't be owned > > -- Dana Gioia. *The Gods of Winter*. 1991. > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 30 00:47:11 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:47:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030429232044.01eca608@mail.ilstu.edu> "I hope that, in time, some (Gabe) will see that their extraneous posts are largely without interest to a list called, last I looked, NewPoetry. Jim Finnegan" Thanks, Jim, for that clarification as regards your previous backchannel to me, of April 5th, in which you said, "Gabe, please just point to the URL or post brief excerpts of nonpoetry-related material." I did begin at that time to post only abstracts and urls. I also began to post such items more infrequently. I was under the impression that the posts were of interest to people. As a matter of fact, I went through and reread newpoetry threads begun by others and posted to by others on the list that had to do with the war in Iraq and that contained no overt reference to poetry in them and in fact found that a non-infrequent poster on some of those threads (eg, the "shock without awe" thread) was Jim FInnegan himself. Others who post to overly and almost exclusively war threads were Crisman Cooley, JackTar, Paul Lake, Mike Snider, Marcus Bales, Elemonope, Halvard Johnson, James Cervantes, Henry Gould, Deborah Reynolds, Bob of Poetry Catamaran, Jeff Newberry, Daniel Zimmerman, to name only some. Jim says this is a small list. I can see 15 poets here, including myself and Jim Finnegan, who, at a glance, seem to have interest in these threads. Obviously an inordinate number of poets world-wide have become greatly interested in the war in Iraq. It does not seem therefore unusual, and I do not consider myself some kind of "liberal" aberration in this regard, that the interest in the killing in Iraq should make its way onto a poetry list. Such posts have been a part of every poetry list -- indeed every non-poetry list -- that I've been on over the past few months -- since well before the invasion began. But again, Jim, if you wish me to desist in posting urls and abstracts related to the war on this list, I will cease. Just say the word. Gabe _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Assistant Professor of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From luap at mallasch.com Wed Apr 30 00:55:01 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:55:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030429232044.01eca608@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: i remember being told the iraq banter was 'rhetoric' practice, fwiw... i think i fell prey to the lesson as well, though. btw, how long is new poetry new? -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > "I hope that, in time, some (Gabe) will see that their extraneous posts are > largely without interest to a list called, last I looked, NewPoetry. > Jim Finnegan" > > Thanks, Jim, for that clarification as regards your previous backchannel to > me, of April 5th, in which you said, "Gabe, please just point to the URL or > post brief excerpts of nonpoetry-related material." I did begin at that > time to post only abstracts and urls. I also began to post such items more > infrequently. > > I was under the impression that the posts were of interest to people. As a > matter of fact, I went through and reread newpoetry threads begun by others > and posted to by others on the list that had to do with the war in Iraq and > that contained no overt reference to poetry in them and in fact found that > a non-infrequent poster on some of those threads (eg, the "shock without > awe" thread) was Jim FInnegan himself. Others who post to overly and almost > exclusively war threads were Crisman Cooley, JackTar, Paul Lake, Mike > Snider, Marcus Bales, Elemonope, Halvard Johnson, James Cervantes, Henry > Gould, Deborah Reynolds, Bob of Poetry Catamaran, Jeff Newberry, Daniel > Zimmerman, to name only some. > > Jim says this is a small list. I can see 15 poets here, including myself > and Jim Finnegan, who, at a glance, seem to have interest in these threads. > Obviously an inordinate number of poets world-wide have become greatly > interested in the war in Iraq. It does not seem therefore unusual, and I do > not consider myself some kind of "liberal" aberration in this regard, that > the interest in the killing in Iraq should make its way onto a poetry list. > Such posts have been a part of every poetry list -- indeed every non-poetry > list -- that I've been on over the past few months -- since well before the > invasion began. > > But again, Jim, if you wish me to desist in posting urls and abstracts > related to the war on this list, I will cease. Just say the word. > > Gabe > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things > they misname empire; and where they make > a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus > > > Gabriel Gudding > Assistant Professor of English > Illinois State University > Normal, IL 61790 > office 309.438.5284 > gmguddi at ilstu.edu > > http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html > http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 30 02:07:47 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 01:07:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Letters to Butts Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030430010031.01c35f28@mail.ilstu.edu> Not since witnessing a lecture Susan Howe gave at Cornell 4 years ago on the handwriting, doodles and manuscripts of Charles Sanders Peirce, have I been so interested in handwriting. Take a look at Wm Blake's interesting hand in letters to Th. Butts, 1800-03. There are eleven or so here: http://www.motco.com/blake-letters/default2.asp From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 30 06:07:42 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 06:07:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "Chairman Gioia" References: Message-ID: <005601c30f00$57d37b80$806efea9@j1c1k6> I love "masterwhere!" Otherwise, the poem is very much like one I wrote in my early twenties and think was my first okay poem. Mine rhymed, though. On the other hand, it wasn't anywhere near as long as Gioia's, so lacks its details. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 30 06:47:20 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 06:47:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-relatedthreads References: Message-ID: <001e01c30f05$e11049a0$2ba7fea9@j1c1k6> > btw, how long is new poetry new? > > -kpaul > mallasch.com/mug/ I consider it new until commercial or academic presses publish significant amounts of it--a full book of it, say. But I'm referring not to poetry, I guess, but to KINDS of poetry. The "new" in New Poetry means, I'm sure, new individual poems regardless of whether they are new in kind or not. --Bob G. From sellwein at hotmail.com Wed Apr 30 08:51:48 2003 From: sellwein at hotmail.com (Deborah Russell) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:51:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Marie Ponsot Message-ID: I appreciate the threads that provide poetry. - Deborah Subj: Marie Ponsot Date: 4/29/03 5:05:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: knopfpoetry at info.randomhouse.com (The Knopf Poetry Center) To: JforJames at aol.com A poem by Marie Ponsot, who turns eighty-two this month. ****************************************** Springing In a skiff on a sunrisen lake we are watchers. Swimming aimlessly is luxury, just as walking Loudly up a shallow stream is. As we lean over the deep well, we whisper. Friends at hearths are drawn to the one warm air; strangers meet on beaches drawn to the one wet sea. What wd it be to be water, one body of water (what water is is another mystery). (We are water divided.) It wd be a self without walls, with surface tension, specific gravity, a local exchange between bedrock and cloud of falling and rising, rising to fall, falling to rise. ****************************************** From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 30 09:24:58 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:24:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { btw, how long is new poetry new? If poetry is news that stays news, then new poetry is new news that stays news. Hal "I have the feeling that we are getting nowhere, and that is a pleasure." --John Cage Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From hruggier at localnet.com Wed Apr 30 10:59:54 2003 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:59:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nimoy References: <6.fcb365d.2be05eee@aol.com> Message-ID: <3EAFE4E9.F1AE4A16@localnet.com> Quoting Leonard: from his book published by Celestial Arts (can you get more spacey (not Kevin, no)): You and I By Leonard Nemoy I am not alone. There are times when I think I am, Feel like I am Alone and lost. But as the river bends, and the drifting traveler Sees the unfolding of new vistas, New Horizons, New Landmarks I find a new communion With the turn of time A new sense of Universal connection. Oh, those Vulcans, heavy stuff from a logical planet. JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/29/03 11:13:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > > > If anyone else criticizes the poetry of Leonard Nimoy, I'm going to paralyze > > him with the Vulcan neck pinch. > Paul, I'm shocked. I never before associated you with > the neo-neurophysiological school of critcism. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 30 10:42:51 2003 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "Chairman Gioia" In-Reply-To: <0D877EF4-7AAB-11D7-BF45-000393DE187A@optonline.net> Message-ID: <20030430144251.1961.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Off by a "conservative mile?" Explain this, please. So, since Mas Tse Tsung was referred to as "Chairman," then the term itself is somehow inherently "bad?" Additionally, I know exactly who Tse Tsung is; no need for the ad hominem regarding my cultural intelligence. I fail to see your point. I have a department head whom we refer to as "the chair." I suppose she's a conservative, too? Or worse, a communist? Jeff Newberry "Expose postmodernism for what it is--a cheap academic parlor trick."_Life's Little Deconstruction Book_ Richard Attanasio wrote: On Tuesday, April 29, 2003, at 06:13 PM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > What quibbling. What silliness. I suppose you prefer "chairperson" > or the politically correct "chair?" If you want to attack Gioia, at > least do it with class. Counting titles indeed . . . at least he > wasn't referred to as "his highness" or "the royal" or "head cheese." > Sheesh. Jeff Newberry No Jeffrey, your supposition is off by a (conservative) mile. Mr. Gioia, or just plain Gioia, would have been fine, after the first time. The last person I recall insisting on the honorific "Chairman" was, ummh, Mao Tse Tung. If he was before your time, you can look him up. Now I'm not suggesting DG insisted on being so addressed (I'm not attacking Gioia here), I thought it was amusing that SOMEBODY thought to write it that way. Richard > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Apr 30 10:57:14 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:57:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nimoy In-Reply-To: <111.230adaba.2be08b61@cs.com> Message-ID: on 4/29/03 9:13 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/29/2003 6:06:10 PM Central Standard Time, > JforJames at aol.com writes: >> Paul, I'm shocked. I never before associated you with >> the neo-neurophysiological school of critcism. >> Finnegan >> _________________ >> > You haven't read Paul on Turner's "The Neural Lyre." No, ?The Neural Liar? was written by a Clingon to discredit the Federation. Captain Kirk and I co-authored ?Po-Biz: Starship or Enterprise?? which was published in the The Writer?s Chronicle, June 1, Stardate 3018. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 30 11:42:18 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:42:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Nimoy Message-ID: <71.303b5679.2be148da@cs.com> In a message dated 4/30/2003 10:07:16 AM Central Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > on 4/29/03 9:13 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > >> In a message dated 4/29/2003 6:06:10 PM Central Standard Time, >> JforJames at aol.com writes: >> >>> Paul, I'm shocked. I never before associated you with >>> the neo-neurophysiological school of critcism. >>> Finnegan >>> _________________ >>> >>> >> You haven't read Paul on Turner's "The Neural Lyre." >> > > No, ?The Neural Liar? was written by a Clingon to discredit the > Federation. Captain Kirk and I co-authored ?Po-Biz: Starship or Enterprise? > ? which was published in the The Writer?s Chronicle, June 1, Stardate > 3018. Damn! Why don't I save all of those back issues? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Apr 30 11:55:34 2003 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:55:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nimoy In-Reply-To: <3EAFE4E9.F1AE4A16@localnet.com> Message-ID: on 4/30/03 9:59 AM, Helen Ruggieri at hruggier at localnet.com wrote: > Quoting Leonard: from his book published by Celestial Arts (can you get more > spacey (not Kevin, no)): > > You and I > > By Leonard Nemoy > > I am not alone. > There are times when I think I am, > Feel like I am > Alone and lost. > But as the river bends, > and the drifting traveler > Sees the unfolding of new vistas, > New Horizons, > New Landmarks > I find a new communion > With the turn of time > A new sense of > Universal connection. > > > Oh, those Vulcans, heavy stuff from a logical planet. > > JforJames at aol.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 4/29/03 11:13:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: >> >>> If anyone else criticizes the poetry of Leonard Nimoy, I'm going to paralyze >>> him with the Vulcan neck pinch. >> Paul, I'm shocked. I never before associated you with >> the neo-neurophysiological school of critcism. >> Finnegan >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > This poem doesn't compute. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 30 11:54:16 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:54:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gustaf Sobin, "A Self-Portrait in Late Autumn" Message-ID: A Self-Portrait in Late Autumn . . . through that ever- lasting interval, were never more than these late bees you'd scribble: what hung, like sucklings, from the fat, dangling clusters; than these desolate, verb- studded landscapes you'd murmur, even hiss into some other, some ever else- where's ear --Gustaf Sobin fr. (*Conjunctions* 35, 2000) Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 30 12:34:47 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:34:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads Message-ID: <165.1f1edd1f.2be15527@aol.com> In a message dated 4/30/03 12:50:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > But again, Jim, if you wish me to desist in posting urls and abstracts > related to the war on this list, I will cease. Just say the word. > Gabe, as I said backchannel, your Iraq posts didn't seem excessive to me, so I didn't intervene. But, speaking for myself, not as list manager, I began to summarily delete most of what you posted re Iraq. I have other spaces for & avenues to information on this very important topic/event... It's true I did participate in some Iraq-related discussion, but I saw my participation as related to the White House's cancellation of the Dickinson-Whitman Celebration, Hamill's Poets Against The War website, and the various pro & con articles that followed. Poetry is related to the world, including its wars. Poetry and politics can't and shouldn't be entirely separated, in my opinion. And I'm sure I strayed into the purely political at times with my posts. I think that's the point: We can stray...but when do we go too far afield, or too often far afield? There are about 150 or so people participating (some) or lurking (most) at any given time on this list. I don't expect they believe that everything said or posted in this space will be interesting/valuable...but I do expect that most of them believe 99% of what gets posted to NewPoetry can be tied, however tenuously, to the word "Poetry". We degrade the value of this space if we don't respect it for what it is. Finnegan (member) Jim Finnegan (list manager) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 30 12:50:40 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:50:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads Message-ID: <1c4.8e12138.2be158e0@aol.com> In a message dated 4/30/03 9:31:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > If poetry is news that stays news, > then new poetry is new news that stays news. > I like Hal's WCW twist...this list, as some holdovers will recall, is the reincarnation of CAP-L (Contemporary American Poetry List). Contemporary (hence New, and also in the sense of Pound's modernist dictum "Make it new."); but Poetry, regardless of era/geography, is the emphasized word. (Note: Let's leave the definition of poetry as entirely subjective.) Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 30 13:10:50 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:10:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <165.1f1edd1f.2be15527@aol.com> Message-ID: I must say that I agree with some of this, Jim, but I also feel that 100% of everything in this and all other universes can be tied, however tenuously, to the word "poetry" as well as to all other words and thingies. But that's a "philosophical" position, I guess. What's not interesting/valuable to me gets deleted, often before I come to see whatever interest or value it *might* have to me. Sad, but true. Times winged chariot and all that. But my delete key is working fine, thanks, especially on the overly eristic around here. And that's not Gabe. Hal There are about 150 or so people participating (some) or lurking (most) at any given time on this list. I don't expect they believe that everything said or posted in this space will be interesting/valuable...but I do expect that most of them believe 99% of what gets posted to NewPoetry can be tied, however tenuously, to the word "Poetry". We degrade the value of this space if we don't respect it for what it is. Finnegan (member) Jim Finnegan (list manager) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cc at opus0.com Wed Apr 30 14:41:24 2003 From: cc at opus0.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:41:24 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <200304301250.h3UCo7ST022567@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > From: Gabriel Gudding > I was under the impression that the posts were of interest to > people. As a matter of fact, I went through and reread newpoetry threads begun > by others and posted to by others on the list that had to do with the war > in Iraq and that contained no overt reference to poetry in them Gabe, Like you, I'm concerned that commercial newspapers/radio/TV news work against informedness--by design or market bugaboo. And it's important to me to stay informed and to inform others of different "interpretations" of what's haha happening. But that isn't why I'm on this list; I'm here to learn about poetry. For this same reason I don't go to the fruit stand for auto parts. Michael Snider and I could probably have a long discussion about politics, but after a brief skirmish, we've pleasantly avoided that, and I've learned something about poetry from him. I'd wear my ignorance on my sleeve to learn about poetry from you too, or from anyone. You see what sort of salvation army man I am. One last bromide: I believe the best way to promote peace is by being peaceful. (Now, wash that down with water!) It sounds stupid, but it's actually incredibly hard: to discuss ideas without using napalm. To avoid substituting for kindness vitriol. If I were to list my criticisms of new-poetry, the one at the top would be that I don't learn anything when people are firebombing each other. What do I care who's right about taxonomy? Or right about Iraq? Or anything? Anyway: there's my vote. Crisman From luap at mallasch.com Wed Apr 30 14:58:06 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:58:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Crisman Cooley wrote: > > From: Gabriel Gudding > > > Gabe, > Like you, I'm concerned that commercial newspapers/radio/TV news work > against informedness--by design or market bugaboo. And it's important to me > to stay informed and to inform others of different "interpretations" of > what's haha happening. being a poet incognito who managed to slip into corporate media america to study the lifeforms and mannerisms of that set to later write about it, i totally hear what you're saying. money is the bottom line. the media should have to be non-profit. otherwise, you're always more beholden to the stockholder than the public. > But that isn't why I'm on this list; I'm here to learn about poetry. For > this same reason I don't go to the fruit stand for auto parts. Michael > Snider and I could probably have a long discussion about politics, but after > a brief skirmish, we've pleasantly avoided that, and I've learned something > about poetry from him. I'd wear my ignorance on my sleeve to learn about > poetry from you too, or from anyone. You see what sort of salvation army > man I am. on a side note, in one small town i lived in once, there was this bookstore behind the Post Office. Of course, the first time I saw it, I had to wander over. Very nice old lady who knew her books - not from a literary standpoint, but from the 'business of books' standpoint. She scoured the Midwest for H. Miller, Nin, and others for me. Anyways, long story short, in the same building her husband ran a chainsaw repair/tool shop. Next to stacks of dusty books were bins of nuts and bolts. My first purchase, I happened to be in line behind someone bringing a chainsaw in. Surreal experience, that. > One last bromide: I believe the best way to promote peace is by being > peaceful. (Now, wash that down with water!) It sounds stupid, but it's > actually incredibly hard: to discuss ideas without using napalm. To avoid > substituting for kindness vitriol. If I were to list my criticisms of > new-poetry, the one at the top would be that I don't learn anything when > people are firebombing each other. What do I care who's right about > taxonomy? Or right about Iraq? Or anything? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And yes, it's very difficult to love even your enemies. (Narrow is the gate...) the new poem knew it was just a thought in absentia not relevant then relevant other times the time seems like poetry like me And here's a poem fragment into the mix, into the void, kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ > Anyway: there's my vote. > > Crisman > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From elemenope at icubed.com Wed Apr 30 02:53:25 2003 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:53:25 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Disingenuous retort by Professor Gudding. In-Reply-To: <200304301250.h3UCo7ST022567@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200304301250.h3UCo7ST022567@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Disingenuous retort by Professor Gudding. This nationally acknowledged poet instigated the attempts to rectify his false accounts of the Iraq campaign, his slanders of the President, slanders worthy of El Saraff against American troops, and his overt propaganda for the RadLib Peacenik Ivory Tower Hate-America-First anti-Bush anti-Reagan Brat-Seditionist Smirker Shrinking Minority. If Professor Gudding had not employed this list to advance his agenda by means of selective quotation, spam, and reliance on enemy (Saddam's Information Agency) propaganda, we, his respondents on this list, would have not had cause to spend valuable time refuting the professor's false, misleading contentions. Mr. Gudding, thus, claims to be a victim when he is the perpetrator. When people stand up to him (like William Jefferson Blythe Clinton, impeached President, vis-a-vis the women he raped), he cries: "Hey, they did it, too!" Nonsense. Or, as Mr. Bales put it, "BullShiP." Simultaneously, we see Hillarity Clitnon coming on at a DemKrat fundraiser with a bitchin rant that she and her faction are unfairly tarred as Seditionist and Disloyal when they attack the Administration in just the way that Professor Gudding attacks. Wow, did her voice go strident! Talk about raising the cackles. However, get this: Mrs. Clinton, Junior Senator of a state she never lived in before she gained one of its highest offices due to fixers and patronage, was and is disloyal as is her faction roaming the streets of San Francisco, New York, Paris and parts elsewhere. Why? Before World War II, the Conscientious Objectors and Republicans who opposed FDR were vituperative, right or wrong. But once the shooting started, politics was put aside. The objective reader will note that the Clinton RadLibs kept on and keep on with the snideries and snickeries. Yes, indeed, they are disloyal. Professor Gudding: You are a Liberal. A Radical Liberal. Certainly, you aren't a Conservative (I say you aren't, so you aren't.) and definitely you aren't a Republican. If the shoe fits, wear it! You don't think the label applies to you, but it does. Shall we go into your writings and examine the evidence? Shall we begin with your high profile appearance in the editorial page of The St. Mark's Poetry Project Newsletter? -- From JforJames at aol.com Wed Apr 30 15:04:50 2003 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:04:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads Message-ID: <33.37ec0fc9.2be17852@aol.com> In a message dated 4/30/03 1:19:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > But that's a "philosophical" position, I guess. > What's not interesting/valuable to me gets deleted, often before > I come to see whatever interest or value it *might* have to me. > Sad, but true. Times winged chariot and all that. But my delete > key is working fine, thanks, especially on the overly eristic around > here. And that's not Gabe. Hal, I think it's safe to say that most of us wouldn't remain on a list if the ratio of deleting to reading was very great. But I know what you're saying...sometimes even a thread which is nomimally about poetry becomes a protracted argument without hope of further insight. The taxing wrangle over taxonomy comes to mind. Forbearance (in the sense of restraining oneself and in the sense of giving some latitude to others) and respect make for a good list. Finnegan From daisyf1 at juno.com Wed Apr 30 15:03:38 2003 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:03:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry daily poet laureate report Message-ID: <20030430.150518.-630095.13.daisyf1@juno.com> Just wanted to let you know my report on the PoetLaureate convention up in NH this past weekend is up on http://www.poems.com/news.htm, incl., for those have been following the "Chairman Gioia" thread, a section called "Quotations from Chairman Dana." It will be up for the next week or so. I had a lot of fun writing it; maybe it'll be fun to read too... This is the last day of PD's April fundraiser, so if you were thinking about sending $ to PD and haven't yet... Not to sound like a public radio person during fund-drive week... Cheers, Daisy Daisy Fried 811 S. Hutchinson St. Philadelphia, PA 19147 215.923.3158 daisyf1 at juno.com From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 30 15:28:23 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:28:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <165.1f1edd1f.2be15527@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030430114408.011b6e10@mail.ilstu.edu> Jim, Understood. I will rein in and comply to your wishes, posting even fewer urls regarding such matters. As I told you in our backchannels, I respect the situation and your position as list moderator on such a list, which the inimitable Halvard Johnson describes aptly as "eristic." In one sense I am sorry for this trouble, but in another I am happy to see us having a discussion about the validity and role current events can and should play in poetry forums, especially -- and as i suggested earlier -- especially because so many thousands of poets worldwide have been writing and speaking and mobilizing (mostly via email and listservs it seems) about these matters. And Crisman, I very much agree with you regarding not firebombing anyone personally and verbally. I have often been struck by the degree to which this is done on this list (especially as regards the sarcastic comments by some that often end in "LOL" or somesuch, and the unfortunate practice of putting people's names in the subject heading alongside such epithets that might contain the word "liberal" (as if that were synonymous with "fucker") or variants thereof such as "radlib" or whateve it might be, and where I have been thought responsible for such actions, on this and other lists, I have always apologized. I have not, as far as I can remember, ever flamed anybody in particular on this list, nor on any other list in many years -- despite whatever words I know that some here have tried to put in my mouth. I suspect my even mentioning this will cause at least a nasty spate of backchannels, not infrequent from some members of this list, and/or some public postings of things I either said or am reputed to have said, though often I miss them because I have a few of the subscribers to this list on filter. And thanks to Halvard for my man Gustav Sobin today. And for the word "eristic," which I can't believe I never noticed before. GAbe From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 30 15:38:53 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:38:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry daily poet laureate report In-Reply-To: <20030430.150518.-630095.13.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030430143228.0399a560@mail.ilstu.edu> Thanks, Daisy. I was very much struck by this from your article, especially as regards the eristic stuff of late on new-poetry: "Poet Laureate X (name changed to protect the ingenuous), told an interviewer "George W. Bush is the worst president we've ever had." The quote appeared in a newsletter, but then the newspapers got hold of it. "You would not believe the hate mail I got. It was awful! They threatened bodily harm. They said I was not a patriot. They said I was a traitor. I am not a political person at all! I don't get involved in that! My poems are about relationships. And childhood." "Well," says Marie Harris. "I'd rather have poetry controversies than nobody talking about poetry at all." -- It's a curious statement, I've always found it, when an American says she or he isn't a political person. Or when Rush Limbaugh rebukes the Dixie Chicks for being "political," as if statements in public of thoughts about the government are not allowed. Have heard that several times since 911. Strange days. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 30 15:44:28 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:44:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads References: <1c4.8e12138.2be158e0@aol.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c30f50$ea01e960$2bb4fea9@j1c1k6> ----- Original Message ----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In a message dated 4/30/03 9:31:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: If poetry is news that stays news, then new poetry is new news that stays news. I like Hal's WCW twist...this list, as some holdovers will recall, is the reincarnation of CAP-L (Contemporary American Poetry List). Contemporary (hence New, and also in the sense of Pound's modernist dictum "Make it new."); but Poetry, regardless of era/geography, is the emphasized word. (Note: Let's leave the definition of poetry as entirely subjective.) Finnegan Ah, so now you think it's okay for Gabe to post his junk about Iraq if he calls it poetry, James? --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 30 15:48:49 2003 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:48:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads References: Message-ID: <04e301c30f53$23015d20$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> From: "K. Paul Mallasch" > Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And yes, it's very > difficult to love even your enemies. In my experience, it can be easier sometimes to love your enemies than your friends. Robin (Sleeping with the enemy) From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 30 15:57:53 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:57:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030430114408.011b6e10@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: { As I told you in our backchannels, I respect { the situation and your position as list moderator on such a list, which the { inimitable Halvard Johnson describes aptly as "eristic." Just for the record, Gabe, the word "eristic" in my message wasn't connected (in my mind, at any rate) with Jim F. or his position as list moderator. Hal "A sudden silence in the middle of a conversation suddenly brings us back to essentials: it reveals how dearly we must pay for the invention of speech." --E. M. Cioran Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 30 16:14:01 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:14:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20030430114408.011b6e10@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030430151047.012fa900@mail.ilstu.edu> <> yes, Hal, thank you for point that out. That was an unfortunate accident of my bad sentence construction. I didn't mean,either,to suggest that Jim's job as a list moderator has been eristic, but that -- following your point-- the list was. I hope that, in spite of the bad syntax, my post was complimentary to him as a list moderator. It was my intention to compliment him. sorry. g >Hal "A sudden silence in the middle of a conversation > suddenly brings us back to essentials: it reveals > how dearly we must pay for the invention of > speech." > --E. M. Cioran > >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _____________________________________________________ "To plunder, to slaughter, to steal, these things they misname empire; and where they make a wilderness, they call it peace." -- Tacitus Gabriel Gudding Assistant Professor of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 gmguddi at ilstu.edu http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://gabrielgudding.blogspot.com/ From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Apr 30 16:25:51 2003 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:25:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Sarah Piatt (1836-1919) Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030430152224.039e38d8@mail.ilstu.edu> AFTER WINGS THIS was your butterfly, you see-- His fine wings made him vain: The caterpillars crawl, but he Passed them in rich disdain.-- My pretty boy says, "Let him be Only a worm again!" O child, when things have learned to wear Wings once, they must be fain To keep them always high and fair: Think of the creeping pain Which even a butterfly must bear To be a worm again! "After Wings" is reprinted from The Little Book of American Poets: 1787-1900. Ed. Jessie B. Rittenhouse. Cambridge: Riverside Press, 1915. From daisyf1 at juno.com Wed Apr 30 16:29:31 2003 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:29:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) Message-ID: <20030430.162933.-630095.21.daisyf1@juno.com> Gabe said "-- It's a curious statement, I've always found it, when an American says she or he isn't a political person. Or when Rush Limbaugh rebukes the Dixie Chicks for being "political," as if statements in public of thoughts about the government are not allowed. Have heard that several times since 911. Strange days." Yes--and as if "not being political" (whatever that is) weren't a political choice. I suppose Limbaugh thinks only he's supposed to be political? D. From luap at mallasch.com Wed Apr 30 16:39:29 2003 From: luap at mallasch.com (K. Paul Mallasch) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:39:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: a list of those poets who've posted to war-related threads In-Reply-To: <04e301c30f53$23015d20$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> Message-ID: heh. ;) easy/ difficult/ poetry/ war/ words/ were -kpaul mallasch.com/mug/ On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, Robin Hamilton wrote: > From: "K. Paul Mallasch" > > > Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And yes, it's very > > difficult to love even your enemies. > > In my experience, it can be easier sometimes to love your enemies than your > friends. > > Robin > > (Sleeping with the enemy) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From chryss at silcom.com Wed Apr 30 17:16:00 2003 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:16:00 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry daily poet laureate report In-Reply-To: <20030430.150518.-630095.13.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: Daisy, I'm a little confused by your comment "Somehow Dana Gioia has become the enemy." While it seems clear that you think he's the enemy (you describe him and his assistant with terms like "weird" and "starved down"), he is given two standing ovations, right? Other than the fact that he refuses to comment on decisions made by Laura Bush before he took office, what makes him "the enemy"? Is he your enemy just because Bush is your enemy? After all, this was an entire conference of politically-appointed poets... Am I missing something? C. In the message on 4/30/03 12:03 PM, Daisy Fried wrote: > Just wanted to let you know my report on the PoetLaureate convention up > in NH this past weekend is up on http://www.poems.com/news.htm, incl., > for those have been following the "Chairman Gioia" thread, a section > called "Quotations from Chairman Dana." It will be up for the next week > or so. I had a lot of fun writing it; maybe it'll be fun to read too... > > This is the last day of PD's April fundraiser, so if you were thinking > about sending $ to PD and haven't yet... > > Not to sound like a public radio person during fund-drive week... > > Cheers, > Daisy > > > Daisy Fried > 811 S. Hutchinson St. > Philadelphia, PA 19147 > 215.923.3158 > daisyf1 at juno.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Apr 30 17:45:09 2003 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:45:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) References: <20030430.162933.-630095.21.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <015a01c30f61$c65e0280$2bb4fea9@j1c1k6> > Yes--and as if "not being political" (whatever that is) weren't a > political choice. Question: are we all horticulturalists because a decision not to plant flowers is a horticultural decision? Question: what is it possible not to be? --Bob G. From chris at chrislott.org Wed Apr 30 17:55:20 2003 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:55:20 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark Smirk-heart of Brat-sedition References: <200304290438.h3T4c3ST004715@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <018701c30f63$32c535f0$5b15e589@devbox> I've been looking back at all the posts I have from ELMENOPE and I have to wonder: do you ever post anything about poetry? Even Gabriel Gudding has taken a moment to post something poetry-related in between rehashing news to the list. Is your sole position on this list to parry with others politically? Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute? c From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 30 17:57:12 2003 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:57:12 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) References: <20030430.162933.-630095.21.daisyf1@juno.com> <015a01c30f61$c65e0280$2bb4fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <004c01c30f63$77250680$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> From: "Bob Grumman" > Question: are we all horticulturalists because a decision not to plant > flowers is a horticultural decision? Question: what is it possible not to > be? > > --Bob G. God is a gardener. We are all God's children. Atheists simply +think+ they aren't horticulturalists. (Poor deluded fools that they are.) Robin (Who is not Prince Hamlet ...) From chryss at silcom.com Wed Apr 30 18:00:34 2003 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:00:34 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] horticulture In-Reply-To: <004c01c30f63$77250680$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> Message-ID: Well, there's one of my favorite silly sayings: you can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think... In the message on 4/30/03 2:57 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > From: "Bob Grumman" > >> Question: are we all horticulturalists because a decision not to plant >> flowers is a horticultural decision? Question: what is it possible not to >> be? >> >> --Bob G. > > God is a gardener. > > We are all God's children. > > Atheists simply +think+ they aren't horticulturalists. > > (Poor deluded fools that they are.) > > Robin > > (Who is not Prince Hamlet ...) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 30 18:12:19 2003 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:12:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark Smirk-heart of Brat-sedition References: <200304290438.h3T4c3ST004715@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <018701c30f63$32c535f0$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: <008301c30f65$ae2241a0$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> From: "Chris Lott" > I've been looking back at all the posts I have from ELMENOPE and I have to > wonder: do you ever post anything about poetry? Even Gabriel Gudding has > taken a moment to post something poetry-related in between rehashing news to > the list. Is your sole position on this list to parry with others > politically? Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute? ELEMENOPE, that is. Well, he did post the Laura Bush poem. But hey, I'm not about to leap to Richard's defence -- he's a Big Boy, and perfectly capable of looking after himself. Robin Hamilton. (Prop: Phantom Rooster Press. Forthcoming: David Bircumshaw, _Painting Without Numbers_ Richard Dillon, _Utter Light, Utter Dark_ (Richard: Repost "Big Time Shot" from The Dark Days of the subsubpoetics Meltdown, and show everyone what you're like when you're not yelling from under your Texas Lone Star Ranger hat. Robin ) From jpjones at ihug.com.au Wed Apr 30 18:13:49 2003 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 08:13:49 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] horticulture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <04EE516D-7B59-11D7-B862-0030657CB5FE@ihug.com.au> ... or him. I know more than one male whore. Jill On Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 08:00 AM, Chryss Yost wrote: > Well, there's one of my favorite silly sayings: you can lead a > horticulture, > but you can't make her think... > > > In the message on 4/30/03 2:57 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > >> From: "Bob Grumman" >> >>> Question: are we all horticulturalists because a decision not to >>> plant >>> flowers is a horticultural decision? Question: what is it possible >>> not to >>> be? >>> >>> --Bob G. >> >> God is a gardener. >> >> We are all God's children. >> >> Atheists simply +think+ they aren't horticulturalists. >> >> (Poor deluded fools that they are.) >> >> Robin >> >> (Who is not Prince Hamlet ...) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________________ Jill Jones http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones Latest book: Screens Jets Heaven. Available now from Salt Publishing http://www.saltpublishing.com From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 30 18:09:19 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:09:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <015a01c30f61$c65e0280$2bb4fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: { Question: are we all horticulturalists because a decision not to plant { flowers is a horticultural decision? Question: what is it possible not to { be? { { --Bob G. Answer: You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make it think. Answer: It is not possible not to be what--maybe. Hal "I have the feeling that we are getting nowhere, and that is a pleasure." --John Cage Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Apr 30 18:10:56 2003 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 18:10:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark Smirk-heart of Brat-sedition In-Reply-To: <018701c30f63$32c535f0$5b15e589@devbox> Message-ID: { I've been looking back at all the posts I have from ELMENOPE You've always been my hero, Chris, and now you always will be. Hal "I'm not afraid of dying, I just don't want to be there when it happens." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Apr 30 18:33:12 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:33:12 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RelativeLinks Message-ID: <3EB04F27.DB8549C7@earthlink.net> Volume II of RelativeLinks has opened with Helen Ruggieri's review of _Collected Tanka_, Akitsu Ei, translated by Miyuki Aoyama and Leza Lowitz. We would like to receive submissions of reviews of online collections so the contributing editors don't have to do all the work. http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Apr 30 18:37:26 2003 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:37:26 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) References: Message-ID: <3EB05025.EFF3C51F@earthlink.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > { Question: are we all horticulturalists because a decision not to plant > { flowers is a horticultural decision? Question: what is it possible not to > { be? > { > { --Bob G. > > Answer: You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make it think. > > Answer: It is not possible not to be what--maybe. Or: Be possible not to what it is. - Jim From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 30 20:34:32 2003 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 01:34:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dark Smirk-heart of Brat-sedition References: Message-ID: <000d01c30f79$85089ee0$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> From: "Halvard Johnson" > { I've been looking back at all the posts I have from ELMENOPE > > You've always been my hero, Chris, and now you > always will be. He has a name, incidentally, or has no one noticed this? Or are we into non-personing time, shades of Stalin? Robin Hamilton From acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu Tue Apr 29 17:39:39 2003 From: acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu (Alan C Golding) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:39:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Quickly Aging Here Message-ID: The Geoff Hewett anthology offers the kind of wonderfully weird conjunctions that only period-specific anthologies of emergent writers can (i.e., "we're all just starting out, who knows where the hell we'll end up?"). Where else do Rochelle Ratner, Ray DiPalma, and Fanny Howe appear alongside the Williams Harmon and Hathaway? Alan From acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu Tue Apr 29 18:47:42 2003 From: acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu (Alan C Golding) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:47:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] David Graham's vacancy Message-ID: If you've never had the full *Titus* experience, David, there you go--that's the hole at the center of your life. You've never witnessed the entrance of "a servant with two heads and a hand," or seen someone "exit, pursued by a bear." Alan G. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 30 20:47:23 2003 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 01:47:23 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] David Graham's vacancy References: Message-ID: <002701c30f7b$3df3fca0$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> From: "Alan C Golding" > If you've never had the full *Titus* experience, David, there you > go--that's the hole at the center of your life. You've never witnessed > the entrance of "a servant with two heads and a hand," or seen someone > "exit, pursued by a bear." The bear-devoured is Antigonus in WT, not anything in Titus. He returns (bless the Resurrection) as Autolychus. The part was doubled at the Globe in 1610. Titus was MUCH earlier -- 1591? Pre-plague, certainly. Just a +teensy+ point-of-information. Robin From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Apr 30 20:50:28 2003 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:50:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: OK, everyone, I went and fessed up: now it's your turn. I'm feeling rather lonely out here in my vacancy. So: What canonical works did YOU never finish reading? Bookmark stranded halfway through *Paradise Lost*? Did Book IV of *The Faeirie Queene* drive you to snoozeland? Eliot's *Four Quartets* halted at a Trio? Extra points, naturally, for anything Shakespearean. No points for naming Pound's *Cantos*. Come on, come on! ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== > From: "Alan C Golding" > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:47:42 -0400 > To: > Subject: [New-Poetry] David Graham's vacancy > > If you've never had the full *Titus* experience, David, there you > go--that's the hole at the center of your life. You've never witnessed > the entrance of "a servant with two heads and a hand," or seen someone > "exit, pursued by a bear." > > Alan G. From mandolin at mac.com Wed Apr 30 20:44:19 2003 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:44:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] David Graham's vacancy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0AE69F50-7B6E-11D7-A353-000393C29586@mac.com> Back in the late 70s/early 80s (my mind is going) Actor's Theater of Louisville staged Titus Andronicus as a space opera, complete with light swords. I think it was the perfect production. On Tuesday, April 29, 2003, at 06:47 PM, Alan C Golding wrote: > If you've never had the full *Titus* experience, David, there you > go--that's the hole at the center of your life. You've never witnessed > the entrance of "a servant with two heads and a hand," or seen someone > "exit, pursued by a bear." > > Alan G. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Apr 30 22:01:10 2003 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 03:01:10 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy References: Message-ID: <006e01c30f85$c0803300$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> From: "David Graham" > OK, everyone, I went and fessed up: now it's your turn. I'm feeling rather > lonely out here in my vacancy. > > So: What canonical works did YOU never finish reading? Bookmark stranded > halfway through *Paradise Lost*? Done that, but not Regained. > Did Book IV of *The Faeirie Queene* drive > you to snoozeland? Was in at the death of the Blatant Beast -- read through it one summer on the green sunny slopes of Glasgow University. {Hey, The Fairie Quuen ain't that tough -- rhymed prose, for all of me.} > No points for naming Pound's *Cantos*. Pass on the Cantos -- but I did do a cut-up of the bits I thought were worth reading. But let's up the ante ... All ten volumes of Donne's Sermons. The entirety of Fulke Greville's Caelica And if using the Renaissance is cheating, Daniel Deronda and virtually everything by George Eliot except Romola. The Dunciad On the other hand, I did manage to snooze across about the whole of the Romantic period, so virtually no Tennyson or Blake's Prophetic Books. Robin (Who's only read The Adventures of Robinson Crusoe, but neither The Further Adventures nor the Serious Reflections. And still hasn't finished [much as I love them] The Drapier's Letters.) Also unread: The Wake Most of Stevens after Harmonium ANY William Carlos Williams. {Patterson, who needs that dreamy flower?} Jeffrey Archer. Pam Ayres Shelley (Except "The Mask of Anarchy" which, with the help of Jim the Self-Mutilator, I reconstructed from memory in the midst of detox. No library, so we had to do this.) From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Apr 30 22:29:43 2003 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:29:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy References: <006e01c30f85$c0803300$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> Message-ID: <00fa01c30f89$86baa160$6601a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> I won't play this one...I'd win. I've failed to read more than any three of you put together. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:01 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy > From: "David Graham" > > > OK, everyone, I went and fessed up: now it's your turn. I'm feeling > rather > > lonely out here in my vacancy. > > > > So: What canonical works did YOU never finish reading? Bookmark stranded > > halfway through *Paradise Lost*? > > Done that, but not Regained. > > > Did Book IV of *The Faeirie Queene* drive > > you to snoozeland? > > Was in at the death of the Blatant Beast -- read through it one summer on > the green sunny slopes of Glasgow University. > > {Hey, The Fairie Quuen ain't that tough -- rhymed prose, for all of me.} > > > No points for naming Pound's *Cantos*. > > Pass on the Cantos -- but I did do a cut-up of the bits I thought were worth > reading. > > But let's up the ante ... > > All ten volumes of Donne's Sermons. > > The entirety of Fulke Greville's Caelica > > And if using the Renaissance is cheating, Daniel Deronda and virtually > everything by George Eliot except Romola. > > The Dunciad > > On the other hand, I did manage to snooze across about the whole of the > Romantic period, so virtually no Tennyson or Blake's Prophetic Books. > > Robin > > (Who's only read The Adventures of Robinson Crusoe, but neither The Further > Adventures nor the Serious Reflections. And still hasn't finished [much as > I love them] The Drapier's Letters.) > > Also unread: > > The Wake > > Most of Stevens after Harmonium > > ANY William Carlos Williams. {Patterson, who needs that dreamy flower?} > > Jeffrey Archer. > > Pam Ayres > > Shelley (Except "The Mask of Anarchy" which, with the help of Jim the > Self-Mutilator, I reconstructed from memory in the midst of detox. No > library, so we had to do this.) > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 30 23:40:31 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:40:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Cents Message-ID: <6.fe70304.2be1f12f@cs.com> Just for the record, I must say that James Finnegan has been incredibly tolerant in exercising the widest possible latitude in what this list contains, and I salute him for his restraint in using any kind of censorship until the majority of the members of the list complain that they have had enough of a particular thread. Thanks, Jim. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 30 23:48:10 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:48:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry daily poet laureate report Message-ID: <62.2fe2820a.2be1f2fa@cs.com> In a message dated 4/30/2003 4:20:08 PM Central Standard Time, chryss at silcom.com writes: > > > Daisy, > I'm a little confused by your comment "Somehow Dana Gioia has become the > enemy." While it seems clear that you think he's the enemy (you describe > him > and his assistant with terms like "weird" and "starved down"), he is given > two standing ovations, right? > Other than the fact that he refuses to comment on decisions made by Laura > Bush before he took office, what makes him "the enemy"? Is he your enemy > just because Bush is your enemy? > After all, this was an entire conference of politically-appointed poets... > Am I missing something? > C. > > In the message on 4/30/03 12:03 PM, Daisy Fried wrote: > > >Just wanted to let you know my report on the PoetLaureate convention up > >in NH this past weekend is up on http://www.poems.com/news.htm, incl., > >for those have been following the "Chairman Gioia" thread, a section > >called "Quotations from Chairman Dana." It will be up for the next week > >or so. I had a lot of fun writing it; maybe it'll be fun to read too... > > > >This is the last day of PD's April fundraiser, so if you were thinking > >about sending $ to PD and haven't yet... > > > >Not to sound like a public radio person during fund-drive week... > > > >Cheers, > >Daisy > > > > > >Daisy Fried I'm a little unclear about what I'm supposed to be reading. This link was to the website publicizing the event. Where is the report? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Apr 30 23:52:55 2003 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:52:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: David Graham's vacancy Message-ID: <51.2e8e4285.2be1f417@cs.com> In a message dated 4/30/2003 7:49:52 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > OK, everyone, I went and fessed up: now it's your turn. I'm feeling rather > lonely out here in my vacancy. > > So: What canonical works did YOU never finish reading? Bookmark stranded > halfway through *Paradise Lost*? Did Book IV of *The Faeirie Queene* drive > you to snoozeland? Eliot's *Four Quartets* halted at a Trio? > > Extra points, naturally, for anything Shakespearean. No points for naming > Pound's *Cantos*. > > Come on, come on! All of the above, but I did finish the Cantos by keeping it in the bathroom for a year. Never could quite get through the Paradiso either, now to think of it. Too much goodness. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chryss at silcom.com Wed Apr 30 23:53:28 2003 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20:53:28 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry daily poet laureate report In-Reply-To: <62.2fe2820a.2be1f2fa@cs.com> Message-ID: In the message on 4/30/03 8:48 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/30/2003 4:20:08 PM Central Standard Time, > chryss at silcom.com writes: >> >> >> Daisy, >> I'm a little confused by your comment "Somehow Dana Gioia has become the >> enemy." While it seems clear that you think he's the enemy (you describe him >> and his assistant with terms like "weird" and "starved down"), he is given >> two standing ovations, right? >> Other than the fact that he refuses to comment on decisions made by Laura >> Bush before he took office, what makes him "the enemy"? Is he your enemy >> just because Bush is your enemy? >> After all, this was an entire conference of politically-appointed poets... >> Am I missing something? >> C. >> >> In the message on 4/30/03 12:03 PM, Daisy Fried wrote: >> >>> >Just wanted to let you know my report on the PoetLaureate convention up >>> >in NH this past weekend is up on http://www.poems.com/news.htm, incl., >>> >for those have been following the "Chairman Gioia" thread, a section >>> >called "Quotations from Chairman Dana." It will be up for the next week >>> >or so. I had a lot of fun writing it; maybe it'll be fun to read too... >>> > >>> >This is the last day of PD's April fundraiser, so if you were thinking >>> >about sending $ to PD and haven't yet... >>> > >>> >Not to sound like a public radio person during fund-drive week... >>> > >>> >Cheers, >>> >Daisy >>> > >>> > >>> >Daisy Fried > > > I'm a little unclear about what I'm supposed to be reading. This link was to > the website publicizing the event. Where is the report? It?s the ?Snapshots at a Conference? link: http://www.poems.com/essafrie.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: