From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 1 15:39:19 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 14:39:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: call for submissions: Eyeball #6 Message-ID: <200209011938.g81JaSre017556@mx2.mx.voyager.net> ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== EYEBALL #6 IS OPEN FOR SUBMISSIONS STARTING NOW! PLEASE POST THIS INFORMATION AND SHARE IT VIA EMAIL Call for submissions to Eyeball literary magazine The theme for Eyeball # 6: is p), fashion (Fubu, SeanJean) and modern dance (Tap, Jazz, Street) but the same can be said for the visual arts (Cubism, graffiti) and literature (Spoken word & rap). In thisday and age when popular culture is used to sell us everything, this issue seeks to examine the impact that black cultural expressions has had on pop art as well as the impact pop culture has on our collective psyche, negative or positive.We are looking for essays, poems, short stories, photos and artwork tha texplore the theme "Pop Goes the Culture." Please provide as much contact information as possible including an email address if you have one and you utilize it regularly. All work must betyped double spaced and accompanied by a Self Addressed Stamped Envelope ,brief bio and, a copy of the submission and bio on three and half inch disc, (preferably in Microsoft Word) with the author? name address and title ofthe work submitted. If you wish to include a photo of yourself for publication you may do so.For artwork to be considered please send:(Please use 8 1/2" x 11" sheets of white paper, no card stock, do not bind)Plastic slide sheet of up to 20 slides, accompanied by a slide listA current resumeOne page artist's statement on current work, SASE for return of slides (Sorry, we cannot return slides without SASE.)We can accept artwork in other formats if necessary. Please email me if youwill need to send your work in another format. We will begin taking submissions in September and will stop by December15th. You can send submissions to the following address:Charlie Braxton, Guest Editor:Eyeball Literary MagazineP.O. Box 2595Jackson MS 39204 First Civilizations Inc., the literary arts corporation, publishes Eyeball with very generous grants from theMissouri Arts Council and the Regional Arts Commission. FirstCivilizations Inc. is a non-profit organization and accepts tax-deductible In-kind and monetary contributions. Please feel free to contact First Civilizations Inc. at Post Office Box, 8135, St.Louis, MO63108, or by email at firstciv at mindspring.com. From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 1 18:53:43 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 18:53:43 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] A Metaphor To Die For Message-ID: <15b.13722f4f.2aa3f477@aol.com> Beneath the veils tears crept like scorpions over the fragrant roses of their cheeks. These scorpions do not harm the cheek they mark. They save their sting for the heart of the sorrowful lover. (Ibn J?akh, from Leavetaking, 11th Century, Moorish Spain) From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 1 19:43:53 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 19:43:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] perspective, language, structure, images, sound, and revision Message-ID: <3e.238d54f0.2aa40039@aol.com> Subject: poetry essays requested Introduction to Creative Writing: Poetry, a textbook, seeks six separate essays--perspective, language, structure, images, sound, and revision. Under 6,000 words for each essay. Payment is $500 and one copy. Author byline given. Each essay should begin with a true-life story centered on how the poet learned something about a specific theme concept and then offer practical information on that same concept presented via examples and selections from poems. Email essay with cover letter that details your experience and publications as a poet to: sks80013 at yahoo.com From lcrespi at yahoo.com Mon Sep 2 19:01:15 2002 From: lcrespi at yahoo.com (Linda Crespi) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 16:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] September Snakeskin Message-ID: <20020902230115.42228.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com> You can find the new Snakeskin at www.snakeskin.org.uk Linda ===== The Crespi Page is at: http://snakeskin.org.uk/crespi.htm New work appears usually in Snakeskin Webzine: http://www.snakeskin.org.uk __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Sep 3 09:25:35 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:25:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Bertolt Brecht, "War Has Been Given a Bad Name" Message-ID: War Has Been Given a Bad Name I am told that the best people have begun saying How, from a moral point of view, the Second World War Fell below the standard of the First. The Wehrmacht Allegedly deplores the methods by which the SS effected The extermination of certain peoples. The Ruhr industrialists Are said to regret the bloody manhunts Which filled their mines and factories with slave workers. The intellectuals So I heard, condemn industry's demand for slave workers Likewise their unfair treatment. Even the bishops Dissociate themselves from this way of waging war; in short the feeling Prevails in every quarter that the Nazis did the Fatherland A lamentably bad turn, and that war While in itself natural and necessary, has, thanks to the Unduly uninhibited and positively inhuman Way in which it was conducted on this occasion, been Discredited for some time to come. --Bertolt Brecht fr, *Poems 1913-1956* tr. John Willett, 1976 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Sep 3 11:01:48 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:01:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gwynn's poetry Message-ID: For those who'd like to see a healthy sampling of Sam Gwynn's poetry and my review of same, check Contemporary Poetry Review at the following link. The review contains several complete poems. Paul Lake From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Sep 3 11:55:56 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:55:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Gwynn's poetry Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EB6@mail.ripon.edu> Thanks for the heads-up on this, Paul. I think you omitted the URL, though. Not visible on my screen, anyway. http://www.cprw.com/ ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== > ---------- > From: Paul Lake > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2002 10:01 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Gwynn's poetry > > For those who'd like to see a healthy sampling of Sam Gwynn's poetry and > my > review of same, check Contemporary Poetry Review at the following link. > The > review contains several complete poems. > > Paul Lake > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From chryss at silcom.com Tue Sep 3 11:44:46 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 08:44:46 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gwynn's poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The link is: http://www.cprw.com/ BTW, Dana Gioia's new introduction to _Can Poetry Matter?_ is there, too. C. > From: Paul Lake > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:01:48 -0500 > To: > Subject: [New-Poetry] Gwynn's poetry > > For those who'd like to see a healthy sampling of Sam Gwynn's poetry and my > review of same, check Contemporary Poetry Review at the following link. The > review contains several complete poems. > > Paul Lake > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Sep 3 11:53:35 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:53:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gwynn's poetry Message-ID: Thanks, Chryss and David. The link to the Gwynn review is http://www.cprw.com/Lake/gwynn.htm Paul Lake From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Sep 3 11:55:11 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 10:55:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry Matter Message-ID: Here's the link Chryss mentions to Dana Gioia's new introduction to his well-known essay "Can Poetry Matter." http://www.cprw.com/Davis/gioia2.htm Paul Lake From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Sep 3 12:02:49 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:02:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Amichai/ Brecht Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EB7@mail.ripon.edu> The Diameter of the Bomb The diameter of the bomb was thirty centimeters and the diameter of its effective range about seven meters, with four dead and eleven wounded. And around these, in a larger circle of pain and time, two hospitals are scattered and one graveyard. But the young woman who was buried in the city she came from, at a distance of more than a hundred kilometers, enlarges the circle considerably, and the solitary man mourning her death at the distant shores of a country far across the sea includes the entire world in the circle. And I won't even mention the howl of orphans that reaches up to the throne of God and beyond, making a circle with no end and no God. --Yehuda Amichai ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== > ---------- > From: Halvard Johnson > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2002 8:25 AM > To: New-Poetry > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Bertolt Brecht, "War Has Been > Given a Bad Name" > > > War Has Been Given a Bad Name > > I am told that the best people have begun saying > How, from a moral point of view, the Second World War > Fell below the standard of the First. The Wehrmacht > Allegedly deplores the methods by which the SS effected > The extermination of certain peoples. The Ruhr industrialists > Are said to regret the bloody manhunts > Which filled their mines and factories with slave workers. The > intellectuals > So I heard, condemn industry's demand for slave workers > Likewise their unfair treatment. Even the bishops > Dissociate themselves from this way of waging war; in short > the feeling > Prevails in every quarter that the Nazis did the Fatherland > A lamentably bad turn, and that war > While in itself natural and necessary, has, thanks to the > Unduly uninhibited and positively inhuman > Way in which it was conducted on this occasion, been > Discredited for some time to come. > > --Bertolt Brecht > > fr, *Poems 1913-1956* tr. John Willett, 1976 > > > Hal > From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Sep 3 12:58:25 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:58:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Jacques Prevert, "Pater Noster" Message-ID: Pater Noster Our Father who art in heaven Stay there And we'll stay here on earth Which is sometimes so pretty With its mysteries of New York And its mysteries of Paris At least as good as that of the Trinity With its little canal at Ourcq Its great wall of China Its river at Morlaix Its candy canes With its Pacific Ocean And its two basins in the Tuileries With its good children and bad people With all the wonders of the world Which are here Simply on the earth Offered to everyone Strewn about Wondering at the wonder of themselves And daring not avow it As a naked pretty girl dares not show herself With the world's outrageous misfortunes Which are legion With legionaries With torturers With the masters of this world The masters with their priests their traitors and their troops With the seasons With the years With the pretty girls and with the old bastards With the straw of misery rotting in the steel of cannons. --Jacques Prevert, tr. Lawrence Ferlinghetti Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From gmcvay at patriot.net Tue Sep 3 13:38:55 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:38:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gwynn's poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dammit, Paul, I thought you were starting a thread about MY poetry and had merely committed a typo. Gwyn of one n McVay --- ...the busy day, Waked by the lark, hath roused the ribald crows. --_Troilus and Cressida_, IV ii From simon at ipfw.edu Tue Sep 3 13:45:05 2002 From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:45:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: honor moore Message-ID: In The Dark It was night that mae him strange, not his gold spectacles or the strained lay of his skin. Always I say love before it's strange enough, or strange at all, but this time, Doctor, I love our silence, the pale gray stain his eyes leave in my dreams, the strange burning of his fingers, strangling in his long kissing, and the straggle hope burns, a borealis to strafe my retinas in the dark. A goat strays through my dreams, Doctor, a crazy dove, and from Pontormo, a woman struck blind, her arms raised gainst the stranger. in _Darling_ Grove Press: 2001 beth lee beth lee simon, ph.d. associate professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805-1499 voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985 email simon at ipfw.edu From gmcvay at patriot.net Tue Sep 3 13:47:09 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:47:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: honor moore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I liked this. Of course, I could but love thee less, my dear, loved I not Honor Moore. Gwyn --- ...the busy day, Waked by the lark, hath roused the ribald crows. --_Troilus and Cressida_, IV ii From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Sep 3 13:51:15 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:51:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gwynn's poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 9/3/02 12:38 PM, Gwyn McVay at gmcvay at patriot.net wrote: > Dammit, Paul, I thought you were starting a thread about MY poetry and had > merely committed a typo. > > Gwyn of one n McVay > > --- > ...the busy day, > Waked by the lark, hath roused the ribald crows. > --_Troilus and Cressida_, IV ii > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Hey, Gwyn of the one N, how about posting a few of your poems so we can talk about them here first? Or do you have some links to some poems on line you could post--I'm willing to travel. Paul From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Sep 3 13:53:54 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:53:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: honor moore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 9/3/02 12:45 PM, Beth Simon at simon at ipfw.edu wrote: > In The Dark > > It was night that mae him strange, > not his gold spectacles or the strained > lay of his skin. Always I say love > before it's strange enough, or strange > at all, but this time, Doctor, I love > our silence, the pale gray stain > his eyes leave in my dreams, the strange > burning of his fingers, strangling > in his long kissing, and the straggle > hope burns, a borealis to strafe > my retinas in the dark. A goat strays > through my dreams, Doctor, a crazy dove, > and from Pontormo, a woman struck > blind, her arms raised gainst the stranger. > > in _Darling_ Grove Press: 2001 > > beth lee > > beth lee simon, ph.d. > associate professor, linguistics and english > indiana university purdue university > fort wayne, in 46805-1499 > voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985 > email simon at ipfw.edu > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Thanks, Beth. I like this weird Gothic poem--but then I've written a vampire novel, so I have an excuse. Paul Lake From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Sep 3 14:12:50 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:12:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gwynn's poetry Message-ID: <131.1342b54f.2aa655a2@cs.com> In a message dated 9/3/2002 12:39:41 PM Central Daylight Time, gmcvay at patriot.net writes: > Dammit, Paul, I thought you were starting a thread about MY poetry and had > merely committed a typo. > > Gwyn of one n McVay > If you'd just spel your first name with the corect number of consonants you might get more r-e-s-p-e-c-t. The One True Gwynn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Sep 4 16:31:29 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 16:31:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Elizabeth Spires Message-ID: <66.26963a2d.2aa7c7a1@aol.com> http://www.nortonpoets.com ----------- **New this month** Elizabeth Spires, NOW THE GREEN BLADE RISES **Now in paperback** Lenore Marshall, LATEST WILL **New in the Poet's Workshop ** A Matter of Time: A Few Thoughts on Poetry by Elizabeth Spires **Poem of the Month: "The Daughter of Snow" by Elizabeth Spires** To stand in a white dress, the work of a winter afternoon, eyes a pair of sky-blue marbles, mouth a line of twisted yarn, arms two outstretched branching twigs, the world made blue by what you are . . . To stand very still and not to cry out as the afternoon darkens, and the ground steams, and the sound of running snowmelt breaks the silence. To feel the passing of things you cannot touch that touch you with their being . . . Now as my daughter sleeps, I kneel down to what you are, knowing you will be gone tomorrow. May your heart that is not there, the white heart of the snow, be my heart, too. ? 2002 by Elizabeth Spires From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed Sep 4 22:46:23 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 19:46:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Bertolt Brecht, "War Has Been Given a Bad Name" References: Message-ID: <3D76C580.B9326ECB@earthlink.net> yea! bertolt--- i'm teaching his great "Song of The Cut-Priced Poet" in class tomorrow.... chris Halvard Johnson wrote: > War Has Been Given a Bad Name > > I am told that the best people have begun saying > How, from a moral point of view, the Second World War > Fell below the standard of the First. The Wehrmacht > Allegedly deplores the methods by which the SS effected > The extermination of certain peoples. The Ruhr industrialists > Are said to regret the bloody manhunts > Which filled their mines and factories with slave workers. The > intellectuals > So I heard, condemn industry's demand for slave workers > Likewise their unfair treatment. Even the bishops > Dissociate themselves from this way of waging war; in short > the feeling > Prevails in every quarter that the Nazis did the Fatherland > A lamentably bad turn, and that war > While in itself natural and necessary, has, thanks to the > Unduly uninhibited and positively inhuman > Way in which it was conducted on this occasion, been > Discredited for some time to come. > > --Bertolt Brecht > > fr, *Poems 1913-1956* tr. John Willett, 1976 > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Sep 4 23:51:40 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:51:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Bertolt Brecht, "War Has Been Given a Bad ... Message-ID: <191.c9a307c.2aa82ecc@cs.com> Could we have B.B.'s original? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rloden at concentric.net Thu Sep 5 02:19:40 2002 From: rloden at concentric.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 23:19:40 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] preview Stephanie Strickland's "V: VNIVERSE" In-Reply-To: <191.c9a307c.2aa82ecc@cs.com> Message-ID: <000901c254a4$3b6e76a0$25020140@Glasscastle> Apologies to anyone who might see this announcement more than once. . . . "V: VNIVERSE" A preview of Stephanie Strickland's new poem V (Penguin 2002), featuring V's Web section, V: VNIVERSE, an interview with Strickland by Jaishree K. Odin, and a critical essay by Odin on "Image and Text: The Ballad of Sand and Harry Soot." All at: http://www.uiowa.edu/~iareview/tirweb/feature/strickland/index From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 5 09:54:02 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 09:54:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] except from Spires' A Matter of Time: A Few Thoughts on Poetry Message-ID: <17c.dd52e50.2aa8bbfa@aol.com> If you think of poetry as a kind of interior autobiography (which I do), then a poet's poems are both a log of daily experience, direct or oblique, and a kind of topographical map of the psyche, its fissures and chasms, shallows, plateaus, and elevations. It may sound as if I am advocating a kind of 'confessional' approach to poetry. Not really. Too often, confessional poetry adheres so closely to the facts (and lurid details!) that it slights pattern and metaphor. I am more interested in the psychological truth of an experience than the actual facts. (For a brilliant example of a non-confessional poem that lays bare the psyche read "First Woman" by Josephine Jacobsen, one of the contemporary poets I most admire.) From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Sep 5 15:25:57 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 15:25:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Bertolt Brecht, "War Has Been Given a Bad ... In-Reply-To: <191.c9a307c.2aa82ecc@cs.com> Message-ID: Could we have B.B.'s original? ****** I suppose we could, Sam, but I ain't got it. Anyone else? Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 5 17:27:58 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:27:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] POETRY PROJECT ANNOUNCEMENTS Message-ID: <138.13f79e32.2aa9265e@aol.com> From: The Poetry Project Subject: POETRY PROJECT ANNOUNCEMENTS WE HOPE YOU HAD A WONDERFUL SUMMER AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU ALL SOON! *** UPCOMING EVENTS FALL 2002 September 18: An 80th Birthday Celebration for Jackson Mac Low October 2: A Tribute to Kenneth Koch October 9: John Wieners Memorial October 15: The World 58 Book Party (at The Bowery Poetry Club) October 23: Archives Benefit Reading for The Poetry Project and Naropa University Plus readings by Will Alexander, Dodie Bellamy, Serge Fauchereau, Josey Foo, Sesshu Foster, Merrill Gilfillan, Jessica Hagedorn, Kevin Killian, Ed Lin, Anna Moschovakis, Charles North, Ron Padgett, Simon Pettet, Tom Savage, Standard Schaefer, John Tranter, Quincy Troupe, Nina Zivancevic and more. *** BUY THE WORLD 58 TODAY! The Poetry Project proudly announces the highly-anticipated release of its longest-running literary journal, THE WORLD. Contributors to the current issue include Anselm Berrigan, Victor Hern?ndez Cruz, John Godfrey, Carla Harryman, Deniz? Lauture, Ron Padgett, Edwin Torres, Jo Ann Wasserman and Ouyang Xiu. THE WORLD 58 (ISSN 0043-8154) costs $10 and is now on sale at St. Mark's Bookshop and through Small Press Distribution. It can also be bought directly from our office and at events, and can be ordered by sending a check or money order (payable to The Poetry Project) to The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th Street, New York, NY 10003. ### SEPTEMBER/OCTOBER ISSUE OF POETS & POEMS http://www.poetryproject.com/poets.html Featuring work by Silvia Eugenia Castillero (tr. Jen Hofer) Paul ?luard (tr. Lisa Lubasch) Henri Michaux (tr. Laura Wright) Elena Shvartz (tr. Genya Turovsky) Aleksandr Skidan, Alexei Parshchikov & Ilya Kutik (tr. Eugene Ostashevsky) Catullus (tr. Rick Snyder) *** JOHN ASHBERY AND JOE BRAINARD'S THE VERMONT NOTEBOOK BROADSIDE The Poetry Project is offering a signed, limited-edition broadside. Measuring 19 x 15 and printed in a letterpress edition, the broadside sells for $100. Sales from the edition will benefit the Poetry Project. To purchase a broadside, please send a check or money order to The Poetry Project, St. Mark's Church, 131 E. 10th Street, New York, NY 10003. From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu Fri Sep 6 01:31:04 2002 From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 00:31:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session Message-ID: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Sep 6 10:06:19 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:06:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart Message-ID: <152.139d9c3e.2aaa105b@aol.com> Yahoo! News - Study Finds Reciting Poetry Calms the HeartStudy Finds Reciting Poetry Calms the Heart Thu Sep 5, 5:42 PM ET from Am. Medical Cardiology Journal By Charnicia E. Huggins NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - While the rhythmic sounds of poetry may woo a lover's heart, it might also be healthy for the heart of the speaker, according to recent study findings. "Our findings suggest that the stress-releasing effect of guided recitation of old poetry can lead to a deep relaxation afterwards," Dietrich von Bonin of the University of Berne in Switzerland and Dr. Henrik Bettermann of the University of Witten/Herdecke in Germany told Reuters Health in an e-mail interview. "This effect could be beneficial not only in stress management but also for the prevention of heart disease and other illnesses related to irregular breathing," they added. The researchers investigated the effects of poetry on heart rate in a study of seven individuals. After having their heart rates measured for a 15-minute period, the study participants recited poetry for 30 minutes, or spent the same amount of time engaged in conversation. Then their heart rates were measured again, also for 15 minutes. After reciting poetry, the study participants' heart rates slowed to match their breathing rates in "harmonic interaction," according to the authors. Further, this effect persisted for up to 15 minutes after the recitation exercises, the investigators report in the International Journal of Cardiology. No similar effects were observed when the individuals engaged in everyday conversation, the researchers noted. In light of the findings, "we recommend to foster old skills like recitation of rhythmic poetry not only in therapy but also in education, in order to optimize early prevention of heart disease and other stress-related problems," von Bonin and Bettermann said. These findings may also help explain the calming effect of chanting, the researchers note, "since chanting of calming songs also generates a slow and deeper breathing." From JforJames at aol.com Fri Sep 6 10:11:01 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:11:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject: Literary artifacts Message-ID: <114.16cec08b.2aaa1175@aol.com> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 17:53:46 -0600 From: lights Subject: Literary artifacts Check out our new website http://www.northernlightsmag.org . We are hosting an online auction, which started yesterday. Amazing gifts from poets and other writers and literary artifacts are on offer. We have Allen Ginsberg's chair, Richard Brautigan's fly rod, Terry Tempest Williams' cowboy boots, along with rare books accompanied by personal gifts from Jane Hirschfield, Naomi Shihab Nye, and many, many others that might be of interest to all of you. From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Sep 6 10:18:59 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:18:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Bertolt Brecht, two poems Message-ID: On Teaching Without Pupils Teaching without pupils Writing without fame Are difficult. It is good to go out in the morning With your newly written pages To the waiting printer, across the buzzing market Where they sell meats and sets of workmen's tools: What *you* are selling is sentences. The driver has driven fast He has eaten no breakfast Every bend was a risk In haste he steps through the doorway: He whom he came to fetch Has already gone. There speaks he to whom no-one is listening: He speaks too loud And repeats himself. He says things that are wrong: No one corrects him. [tr. Michael Hamburger] General, That Tank General, that tank of yours is some car. It can wreck a forest, crush a hundred men. But it has one failing: It needs a driver. General, you've got a good bomber there. It can fly faster than the wind, carry more than an elephant can. But it has one failing: It needs a mechanic. General, a man is a useful creature. He can fly, and he can kill. But he has one failing: He can think. [tr. Christopher Middleton] --Bertolt Brecht Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Fri Sep 6 10:22:18 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:22:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] =?UTF-8?Q?Abba=20Kovner=E2=80=99s=20collection=20of=20poetry,=20?= =?UTF-8?Q?SLOAN-KETTERING?= Message-ID: <15e.136cacc4.2aaa141a@aol.com> Subj: KNOPF POETRY NEWS: September 2002 Date: 9/5/02 5:54:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: webmaster at randomhouse.com Reply-to: knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com A poem from Abba Kovner?s collection of poetry, SLOAN-KETTERING ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Today Schocken Books is proud to publish SLOAN-KETTERING, the final collection of poetry by Abba Kovner. Kovner was a famous Jewish resistance fighter during World War II, who then led his fellow survivors from Europe to Palestine. He wrote these poems while undergoing treatment at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York. THE WHOLE ACCOUNT You began to love in times of disgust. Close at hand there was no tree, no sign of a living stem or flower, and when there was no reason to sing it was your laughter, jubilant, rousing, saying: There is someone here alive?joyful! And many, so many, then were lying curled up and fearful in grimy shadow, and you began to love without dousing the light of the carbide and went down to the boat that threatened to break up at sea, and you conceived against doctor?s orders. Unannounced, you strode the dead streets, marching?all forty-five kilos of you!?as if on a victory parade of life flowing beneath the surface of all the words, like a fountain flowing, cascading with confidence, telling no lies. from SLOAN-KETTERING: Poems By Abba Kovner Translated from the Hebrew by Eddie Levenston Schocken Books/September 5, 2002 0-8052-4198-1/$17.00 About the author: Abba Kovner was born in 1918 in Sebastopol, Ukraine. Committed to Zionism from boyhood, Kovner became an advocate of armed resistance during World War II, famously urging his comrades in the Vilna ghetto not to go "like sheep to the slaughter." He was a leader in the United Partisan Organization, which carried out sabotage operations against the German army and, after the war, helped to take Jews from eastern and central Europe into Palestine. He and his wife, fellow resistance fighter Vitka Kempner Kovner, eventually settled on a kibbutz, where she still lives. Kovner won the Israel Prize for Literature in 1970 and was a cofounder of the Moreshet Holocaust Institute and the Diaspora Museum in Tel Aviv. He died in 1987. --- NOTE: You received this message because you subscribed to knopfpoetry as: JforJames at aol.com on the Books at Random Web site. To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-knopfpoetry-6633036S at list.randomhouse.com From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Sep 6 10:35:27 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 09:35:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 9/6/02 12:31 AM, Edward Byrne at Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu wrote: >> From this morning's New York Times: > > September 6, 2002 > > The Names > > By BILLY COLLINS > > Yesterday, I lay awake in the palm of the night. > A fine rain stole in, unhelped by any breeze, > And when I saw the silver glaze on the windows, > I started with A, with Ackerman, as it happened, > Then Baxter and Calabro, > Davis and Eberling, names falling into place > As droplets fell through the dark. > > Names printed on the ceiling of the night. > Names slipping around a watery bend. > Twenty-six willows on the banks of a stream. > > In the morning, I walked out barefoot > Among thousands of flowers > Heavy with dew like the eyes of tears, > And each had a name ? > Fiori inscribed on a yellow petal > Then Gonzalez and Han, Ishikawa and Jenkins. > > Names written in the air > And stitched into the cloth of the day. > A name under a photograph taped to a mailbox. > Monogram on a torn shirt, > I see you spelled out on storefront windows > And on the bright unfurled awnings of this city. > I say the syllables as I turn a corner ? > Kelly and Lee, > Medina, Nardella, and O'Connor. > > When I peer into the woods, > I see a thick tangle where letters are hidden > As in a puzzle concocted for children. > Parker and Quigley in the twigs of an ash, > Rizzo, Schubert, Torres, and Upton, > Secrets in the boughs of an ancient maple. > > Names written in the pale sky. > Names rising in the updraft amid buildings. > Names silent in stone > Or cried out behind a door. > Names blown over the earth and out to sea. > > In the evening ? weakening light, the last swallows. > A boy on a lake lifts his oars. > A woman by a window puts a match to a candle, > And the names are outlined on the rose clouds ? > Vanacore and Wallace, > (let X stand, if it can, for the ones unfound) > Then Young and Ziminsky, the final jolt of Z. > > Names etched on the head of a pin. > One name spanning a bridge, another undergoing a tunnel. > A blue name needled into the skin. > Names of citizens, workers, mothers and fathers, > The bright-eyed daughter, the quick son. > Alphabet of names in green rows in a field. > Names in the small tracks of birds. > Names lifted from a hat > Or balanced on the tip of the tongue. > Names wheeled into the dim warehouse of memory. > So many names, there is barely room on the walls of the heart. > > *Billy Collins is poet laureate of the United States. This poem > will be read before Congress today at its joint session in New York > City.* > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Edward Byrne > Department of English > 322 Huegli Hall > Valparaiso University > Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 > > E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu > http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ > > Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review > E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu > http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ > Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 > Fax: (219) 464-5511 > > -------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Wow, he got in the whole alphabet from a to z. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Sep 6 10:52:03 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 09:52:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart In-Reply-To: <152.139d9c3e.2aaa105b@aol.com> Message-ID: on 9/6/02 9:06 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: Looks like William Carlos Williams' attempt to make poetry more like speech was a pretty unhealty idea. > No similar effects were observed when the individuals engaged in everyday > conversation, the researchers noted. I've always suspected that regular doses of language poetry might induce heart disease. . . if not mental illness. Perhaps New Formalists can start charging like doctors and collecting money from insurance agencies. A sonnet should be worth at least as much as a year's supply of blood pressure medicine. I'm going to check with Blue Cross and Blue Shield to see if we can work something out. Paul Lake > Yahoo! News - Study Finds Reciting Poetry Calms the HeartStudy Finds Reciting > Poetry Calms the Heart > Thu Sep 5, 5:42 PM ET from Am. Medical Cardiology Journal > By Charnicia E. Huggins > > NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - While the rhythmic sounds of poetry may woo a > lover's heart, it might also be healthy for the heart of the speaker, > according to recent study findings. > > "Our findings suggest that the stress-releasing effect of guided recitation > of old poetry can lead to a deep relaxation afterwards," Dietrich von Bonin > of the University of Berne in Switzerland and Dr. Henrik Bettermann of the > University of Witten/Herdecke in Germany told Reuters Health in an e-mail > interview. > > "This effect could be beneficial not only in stress management but also for > the prevention of heart disease and other illnesses related to irregular > breathing," they added. > > The researchers investigated the effects of poetry on heart rate in a study > of seven individuals. After having their heart rates measured for a 15-minute > period, the study participants recited poetry for 30 minutes, or spent the > same amount of time engaged in conversation. Then their heart rates were > measured again, also for 15 minutes. > > After reciting poetry, the study participants' heart rates slowed to match > their breathing rates in "harmonic interaction," according to the authors. > Further, this effect persisted for up to 15 minutes after the recitation > exercises, the investigators report in the International Journal of > Cardiology. > > No similar effects were observed when the individuals engaged in everyday > conversation, the researchers noted. > > In light of the findings, "we recommend to foster old skills like recitation > of rhythmic poetry not only in therapy but also in education, in order to > optimize early prevention of heart disease and other stress-related > problems," von Bonin and Bettermann said. > > These findings may also help explain the calming effect of chanting, the > researchers note, "since chanting of calming songs also generates a slow and > deeper breathing." > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu Thu Sep 5 23:22:03 2002 From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 22:22:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart Message-ID: Paul Lake wrote, "Looks like William Carlos Williams' attempt to make poetry more like speech was a pretty unhealty idea." Come off it, Paul. Wordsworth had the same ambition, as has almost every successive generation of writers, including the so-called New Formalists [really the Expansive poets]. It's when language becomes so artificial that it fails to communicate more than its own sollipsistic navel -- at times in Asbery's or Graham's work -- that the results are truly "unhealthy." Michael Karl From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Sep 6 11:29:20 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 10:29:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart Message-ID: <200209061528.g86FSJD40750@mx4.mx.voyager.net> Well, warning labels are already being prepared for Emily Dickinson's books: taking the top off your head can certainly wreak havoc on the circulatory system. I'm afraid, though, that the study in question is seriously flawed. While it's true that recitation of Yeats and Tennyson can lower blood pressure to salutory levels, there are real risks. Swinburne and late Wordsworth have been shown in a high percentage of cases to lower BP to dangerous levels. And a small but significant number of participants in the study died of boredom when forced to read tepid sonnets and bland blank verse by, well, you can fill in the current names yourself (and no, just to be clear, I'm not talking about Paul Lake). ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ---------- >From: Paul Lake >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart >Date: Fri, Sep 6, 2002, 9:52 AM > >on 9/6/02 9:06 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > >Looks like William Carlos Williams' attempt to make poetry more like speech >was a pretty unhealty idea. > >> No similar effects were observed when the individuals engaged in everyday >> conversation, the researchers noted. > >I've always suspected that regular doses of language poetry might induce >heart disease. . . if not mental illness. > >Perhaps New Formalists can start charging like doctors and collecting money >from insurance agencies. A sonnet should be worth at least as much as a >year's supply of blood pressure medicine. I'm going to check with Blue >Cross and Blue Shield to see if we can work something out. > >Paul Lake >------------------------------------- From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Sep 6 11:46:03 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 10:46:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart Message-ID: <200209061545.g86Fj2K02509@mx3.mx.voyager.net> >Looks like William Carlos Williams' attempt to make poetry more like speech >was a pretty unhealty idea. > Fine Work with Pitch and Copper Now they are resting in the fleckless light separately in unison like the sacks of sifted stone stacked regularly by twos about the flat roof ready after lunch to be opened and strewn The copper in eight foot strips has been beaten lengthwise down the center at right angles and lies ready to edge the coping One still chewing picks up a copper strip and runs his eye along it. --William Carlos Williams (from the '85 New Directions Selected, ed. Charles Tomlinson, p. 107) ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Sep 6 11:51:14 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 10:51:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 9/5/02 10:22 PM, Michael Karl Ritchie at michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu wrote: > Paul Lake wrote, "Looks like William Carlos Williams' attempt to make > poetry more like speech > was a pretty unhealty idea." Come off it, Paul. Wordsworth had the same > ambition, as has almost every successive generation of writers, including > the so-called New Formalists [really the Expansive poets]. It's when > language becomes so artificial that it fails to communicate more than its > own sollipsistic navel -- at times in Asbery's or Graham's work -- that > the results are truly "unhealthy." > > Michael Karl > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > It's true, Michael, that Wordsworth also wanted to make verse more speech-like, but his verse is metrical, and thus rhythmical by definition. Williams, by contrast, succeeded all too well in turning poetry into speech. Tim Steele makes that point in Missing Measures. In any case, my comments were a bit tongue-in-cheek. Paul Lake From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Sep 6 11:54:12 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 10:54:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart In-Reply-To: <200209061528.g86FSJD40750@mx4.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: on 9/6/02 10:29 AM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote: > > Well, warning labels are already being prepared for Emily Dickinson's books: > taking the top off your head can certainly wreak havoc on the circulatory > system. > > I'm afraid, though, that the study in question is seriously flawed. While > it's true that recitation of Yeats and Tennyson can lower blood pressure to > salutory levels, there are real risks. Swinburne and late Wordsworth have > been shown in a high percentage of cases to lower BP to dangerous levels. > And a small but significant number of participants in the study died of > boredom when forced to read tepid sonnets and bland blank verse by, well, > you can fill in the current names yourself (and no, just to be clear, I'm > not talking about Paul Lake). > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ======================================== > > > ---------- >> From: Paul Lake >> To: >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart >> Date: Fri, Sep 6, 2002, 9:52 AM >> > >> on 9/6/02 9:06 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: >> >> Looks like William Carlos Williams' attempt to make poetry more like speech >> was a pretty unhealty idea. >> >>> No similar effects were observed when the individuals engaged in everyday >>> conversation, the researchers noted. >> >> I've always suspected that regular doses of language poetry might induce >> heart disease. . . if not mental illness. >> >> Perhaps New Formalists can start charging like doctors and collecting money >> from insurance agencies. A sonnet should be worth at least as much as a >> year's supply of blood pressure medicine. I'm going to check with Blue >> Cross and Blue Shield to see if we can work something out. >> >> Paul Lake >> ------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > You're right, David. W. C. Fields spotted the same problem when he said, "My doctor told me to take a drink to help me relax. Now I get so relaxed sometimes I can't even move." Some passages of Wordsworth are better than counting sheep. Paul Lake From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Sep 6 12:23:55 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:23:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why Can't We All Get Along? Message-ID: <200209061622.g86GMtA27616@mx12.mx.voyager.net> >It's true, Michael, that Wordsworth also wanted to make verse more >speech-like, but his verse is metrical, and thus rhythmical by definition. >Williams, by contrast, succeeded all too well in turning poetry into speech. >Tim Steele makes that point in Missing Measures. Not so fast, I say. Among other things, this kind of summary does a disservice to the amplitude of Williams's project. Exploiting vernacular speech was just one of his experiments, as a look at such poems as "Fine Work With Pitch and Copper" ought to make clear. Now they are resting in the fleckless light separately in unison like the sacks of sifted stone stacked regularly by twos Is that ordinary conversation? Hardly. It's not metrical, true, but it's shaped, rhythmic (all language is rhythmic), and imbued with as much artifice, really, as blank verse. Now I know that the usual response to such arguments is to say (grudgingly) that, well, Williams himself wrote some good stuff perhaps, but just look at his legions of pale dull heirs. Well, true enough, but Longfellow had plenty of pale dull heirs, too, didn't he? The problem is the poet's skill and vision, not the metrical/free toggle-switch, for heaven's sake. We free versers really have a lot of catching up to do, anyway--centuries and centuries of Dunciad-ready metrical stuff. It'll be a while before we can match all that. But, tongue in cheek or not, do we really have to keep re-fighting these battles? -------------------------------------------------------- Fine Work with Pitch and Copper Now they are resting in the fleckless light separately in unison like the sacks of sifted stone stacked regularly by twos about the flat roof ready after lunch to be opened and strewn The copper in eight foot strips has been beaten lengthwise down the center at right angles and lies ready to edge the coping One still chewing picks up a copper strip and runs his eye along it. --William Carlos Williams ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Sep 6 12:29:09 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 11:29:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms Message-ID: >Not so fast, I say. Among other things, this kind of summary does a >disservice to the amplitude of Williams's project. Exploiting vernacular >speech was just one of his experiments, as a look at such poems as "Fine >Work With Pitch and Copper" ought to make clear. >Now they are resting >in the fleckless light >separately in unison >like the sacks >of sifted stone stacked >regularly by twos >Is that ordinary conversation? Hardly. It's not metrical, true, but it's >shaped, rhythmic (all language is rhythmic), and imbued with as much >artifice, really, as blank verse. Which proves that the closer Williams approached metrical poetry (the fairly regular two-stress line, the assonance--resting/fleckless, the end-rhyme, sacks/stacked, the heavy alliteration--the better his poetry sounds. Would that Williams wrote more passages like the above, which does indeed sound good. >But, tongue in cheek or not, do we really have to keep re-fighting these >battles? Sure, if it's fun. I'll bet if a study--flawed or otherwise--came out showing that reading free verse aloud cures stuttering, cancer, and warts, every free verse poet in a America would be saying, "So there, see!" By the way, I do write free verse myself on occasion, trying my best to make it sound more like what Williams wrote above than just about everything else he wrote. Paul Lake From hruggier at localnet.com Fri Sep 6 12:59:12 2002 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 12:59:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart References: Message-ID: <3D78DEE0.2AF921F@localnet.com> Do you think the good Doctor Williams would suggest anything that was unhealthy? Paul Lake wrote: > on 9/5/02 10:22 PM, Michael Karl Ritchie at michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu > wrote: > > > Paul Lake wrote, "Looks like William Carlos Williams' attempt to make > > poetry more like speech > > was a pretty unhealty idea." Come off it, Paul. Wordsworth had the same > > ambition, as has almost every successive generation of writers, including > > the so-called New Formalists [really the Expansive poets]. It's when > > language becomes so artificial that it fails to communicate more than its > > own sollipsistic navel -- at times in Asbery's or Graham's work -- that > > the results are truly "unhealthy." > > > > Michael Karl > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > It's true, Michael, that Wordsworth also wanted to make verse more > speech-like, but his verse is metrical, and thus rhythmical by definition. > Williams, by contrast, succeeded all too well in turning poetry into speech. > Tim Steele makes that point in Missing Measures. > > In any case, my comments were a bit tongue-in-cheek. > > Paul Lake > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Fri Sep 6 12:41:56 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 12:41:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] FIRST ANNUAL ST. GEORGE POETRY FESTIVAL Message-ID: <69.2cd24dcb.2aaa34d4@aol.com> FIRST ANNUAL ST. GEORGE POETRY FESTIVAL (in Staten Island, New York) SEPTEMBER 21ST NOON TO MIDNIGHT www.saintgeorgepoetryfestival.com The First Annual St. George Poetry Festival, an all-day celebration of poetry on Saturday, September 21, 2002, will bring together several generations of poets from all across the country to read in a festival atmosphere from Noon until Midnight. Readings will be interspersed with screenings of experimental films inspired by poetry, and with rare sound recordings of poets. Presses and literary magazines will feature works by the participants, and food and alcohol will be available. The St. George Theatre is one of the city1s forgotten treasures -- a beautiful, 2800 seat theatre built in 1928 as a vaudeville house and closed for the past 25 years. The First Annual St. George Poetry Festival is a benefit for the theatre, which will reopen as a not-for- profit. 3 MINUTE WALK FROM STATEN ISLAND FERRY TERMINAL POETRY BY Joshua Beckman Anselm Berrigan Garret Caples Alan Gilbert Peter Gizzi John Godfrey Robert Kelly Caroline Knox Noelle Kocot Katie Lederer Frank Lima John Lowther Hoa Nguyen G.E. Patterson D.A. Powell Randy Prunty Peter Richards Elena Rivera Matthew Rohrer Mark Schafer David Shapiro Dale Smith Rick Snyder Laura Solomon James Tate Lewis Warsh Monica de la Torre Dara Wier Elizabeth Willis John Yau Matthew Zapruder MUSIC BY JOE PERNICE / NEW RADIANT STORM KING / THE FIGMENTS DOINGGGGG!!!!! a short sound play to be performed by Rob Casper, Matthea Harvey, Aimee Kelley, Gillian Kiley, Brett Lauer, A. E. Wayne, and Sam White POETRY PUBLISHERS 6x6 Magazine, 811 Books, Aufgabe, Baffling Combustions, Both, Cello Entry, Conduit, Crowd, Fence, Four Way Books, Granary Books, Jubilat, La Petite Zine, Left Hand Books, Open City, Radical Society, Skanky Possum, Slope, Soft Skull, Tender Buttons, Verse Press, Zephyr Press, etc. RARE SOUND RECORDINGS by dozens of poets SHORT FILMS done in collaboration with poets WALKING TOURS of the north shore of Staten Island READINGS ON THE FERRY in the early afternoon READINGS for children $15 for all day admission From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Sep 6 12:41:23 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 12:41:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart Message-ID: <15c.1323f540.2aaa34b3@cs.com> In a message dated 9/6/2002 9:08:03 AM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - While the rhythmic sounds of poetry may woo a > lover's heart, it might also be healthy for the heart of the speaker, > according to recent study findings. > > "Our findings suggest that the stress-releasing effect of guided recitation > of old poetry can lead to a deep relaxation afterwards," Dietrich von Bonin > of the University of Berne in Switzerland and Dr. Henrik Bettermann of the > University of Witten/Herdecke in Germany told Reuters Health in an e-mail > interview. > > "This effect could be beneficial not only in stress management but also for > the prevention of heart disease and other illnesses related to irregular > breathing," they added. > > The researchers investigated the effects of poetry on heart rate in a study > of seven individuals. After having their heart rates measured for a > 15-minute > period, the study participants recited poetry for 30 minutes, or spent the > same amount of time engaged in conversation. Then their heart rates were > measured again, also for 15 minutes. > > After reciting poetry, the study participants' heart rates slowed to match > their breathing rates in "harmonic interaction," according to the authors. > Further, this effect persisted for up to 15 minutes after the recitation > exercises, the investigators report in the International Journal of > Cardiology. > > No similar effects were observed when the individuals engaged in everyday > conversation, the researchers noted. > > In light of the findings, "we recommend to foster old skills like > recitation > of rhythmic poetry not only in therapy but also in education, in order to > optimize early prevention of heart disease and other stress-related > problems," von Bonin and Bettermann said. > > These findings may also help explain the calming effect of chanting, the > researchers note, "since chanting of calming songs also generates a slow > and > deeper breathing." > _______________________________________________ > I have noticed a similar reaction among members of my own audiences when I recite to them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Sep 6 13:02:09 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:02:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Too Much Of A Good Thing Message-ID: <18a.d9c14df.2aaa3991@aol.com> Along with that recently announced first annual St. G Festival, it seems there is a harmonic convergence of poetry events going on in Greater NYC area... http://www.grdodge.org/poetry/index.htm & Yale: A Place for Poetry, Celebrating the Bollingen Prize 1949-2002 The Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library and the Whitney Humanities Center at Yale University are pleased to announce a major literary event to take place in September. "Yale: A Place for Poetry, Celebrating the Bollingen Prize 1949-2002," will bring nearly all the living winners of the prestigious Bollingen Prize for poetry to Yale University for a group reading and roundtable discussions. The program will take place on Thursday, September 19 and Friday, September 20. Thursday, September 19, 8:00 pm First Church of Christ in New Haven (Center Church on the Green) 311 Temple Street, New Haven, CT 06511-6698 Readings by Bollingen winners: John Ashbery, Robert Creeley, Louise Gl?ck,, Anthony Hecht, John Hollander, Stanley Kunitz W.S. Merwin, Gary Snyder, Mark Strand, and Richard Wilbur Friday, September 20, 9:30 am-12:30 pm Whitney Humanities Center 53 Wall Street, New Haven, CT Panel 1: American Traditions in Poetry Panelists: Gl?ck, Creeley, Ashbery, Kunitz, Strand Moderator: Langdon Hammer Panel 2: The Craft of Poetry Today Panelists: Wilbur, Hecht, Hollander, Merwin, Justice, Snyder Moderator: J.D. McClatchy The Bollingen Prize winners attending the events include some of the most influential poets in the country: John Ashbery, Robert Creeley, Louise Gl?ck, Anthony Hecht, John Hollander, Stanley Kunitz, W.S. Merwin, Gary Snyder, Mark Strand, and Richard Wilbur. This group includes winners of the Yale Younger Poets series prize, the Pulitzer Prize, the National Book Award, the National Book Critics Circle Award, and the Lannan Foundation Poetry Prize, recipients of National Endowment for the Arts grants, and Guggenheim and MacArthur Foundation fellows to name only a few of their accomplishments. Rarely does such a distinguished and honored group of writers come together and thus this occasion promises to be among the most important and memorable events in contemporary American literary culture. For more information contact Nancy Kuhl at 203.432.2966 or via e-mail at nancy.kuhl at yale.edu Nancy Kuhl Assistant Curator, The Yale Collection of American Literature The Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University 121 Wall Street P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240 Phone: 203.432.2966 Fax: 203.432.4047 From JforJames at aol.com Fri Sep 6 13:08:13 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 13:08:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart Message-ID: <5a.111ef873.2aaa3afd@aol.com> In a message dated 9/6/02 12:42:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > also generates a slow > > and > > deeper breathing." > > _______________________________________________ > > > > I have noticed a similar reaction among members of my own audiences when I > recite to them. Marx was wrong...it seems the iamb is the opiate of the masses. Finnegan From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Sep 6 15:25:43 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 12:25:43 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart References: <152.139d9c3e.2aaa105b@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D790135.D229AF7D@earthlink.net> What sticks out for me is: "Our findings suggest that the stress-releasing effect of guided recitation of OLD POETRY . . . " (caps mine) I hereby demand a study to determine the ameliorative effects of NEW POETRY. Until then, should it come with a warning label? - Jim JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Yahoo! News - Study Finds Reciting Poetry Calms the HeartStudy Finds Reciting > Poetry Calms the Heart > Thu Sep 5, 5:42 PM ET from Am. Medical Cardiology Journal > By Charnicia E. Huggins > > NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - While the rhythmic sounds of poetry may woo a > lover's heart, it might also be healthy for the heart of the speaker, > according to recent study findings. > > "Our findings suggest that the stress-releasing effect of guided recitation > of old poetry can lead to a deep relaxation afterwards," Dietrich von Bonin > of the University of Berne in Switzerland and Dr. Henrik Bettermann of the > University of Witten/Herdecke in Germany told Reuters Health in an e-mail > interview. > > "This effect could be beneficial not only in stress management but also for > the prevention of heart disease and other illnesses related to irregular > breathing," they added. > > The researchers investigated the effects of poetry on heart rate in a study > of seven individuals. After having their heart rates measured for a 15-minute > period, the study participants recited poetry for 30 minutes, or spent the > same amount of time engaged in conversation. Then their heart rates were > measured again, also for 15 minutes. > > After reciting poetry, the study participants' heart rates slowed to match > their breathing rates in "harmonic interaction," according to the authors. > Further, this effect persisted for up to 15 minutes after the recitation > exercises, the investigators report in the International Journal of > Cardiology. > > No similar effects were observed when the individuals engaged in everyday > conversation, the researchers noted. > > In light of the findings, "we recommend to foster old skills like recitation > of rhythmic poetry not only in therapy but also in education, in order to > optimize early prevention of heart disease and other stress-related > problems," von Bonin and Bettermann said. > > These findings may also help explain the calming effect of chanting, the > researchers note, "since chanting of calming songs also generates a slow and > deeper breathing." > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Sep 6 15:18:40 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:18:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash Message-ID: > Do you think the good Doctor Williams would suggest anything that was > unhealthy? Oh, my God! You're right. He was a pediatrician. Think of the danger all those innocent children were exposed to. Thank heaven Williams didn't write nursery rhymes. Here's what a W. C. Williams version of "Jack and Jill" might sound like. Imagine its unhealthy effects on the hearts of Jack and Jill climbed up the grassy knoll covered With asphodels, that greeny flower, to draw a bucket Of water from the depths of the green earth where Kore dwellls in eternity, beside her dark lord. Heedless, Jack plummeted suddenly past the well-curb as Jill sipped from the mossy bucket. It tasted good to her. It tasted good to her, she reflected, unaware Of the bloody crown And slim white leg disappearing, solitary, into the dark cold spring. Paul Lake, M. D. (Doctor of Metrics) From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Sep 6 15:32:41 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:32:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart In-Reply-To: <3D790135.D229AF7D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: on 9/6/02 2:25 PM, James Cervantes at jvcervantes at earthlink.net wrote: > What sticks out for me is: "Our findings suggest that the > stress-releasing effect of guided recitation of OLD POETRY . . . " (caps > mine) I hereby demand a study to determine the ameliorative effects of > NEW POETRY. Until then, should it come with a warning label? > > - Jim > > JforJames at aol.com wrote: >> >> Yahoo! News - Study Finds Reciting Poetry Calms the HeartStudy Finds Reciting >> Poetry Calms the Heart >> Thu Sep 5, 5:42 PM ET from Am. Medical Cardiology Journal >> By Charnicia E. Huggins >> >> NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - While the rhythmic sounds of poetry may woo a >> lover's heart, it might also be healthy for the heart of the speaker, >> according to recent study findings. >> >> "Our findings suggest that the stress-releasing effect of guided recitation >> of old poetry can lead to a deep relaxation afterwards," Dietrich von Bonin >> of the University of Berne in Switzerland and Dr. Henrik Bettermann of the >> University of Witten/Herdecke in Germany told Reuters Health in an e-mail >> interview. >> >> "This effect could be beneficial not only in stress management but also for >> the prevention of heart disease and other illnesses related to irregular >> breathing," they added. >> >> The researchers investigated the effects of poetry on heart rate in a study >> of seven individuals. After having their heart rates measured for a 15-minute >> period, the study participants recited poetry for 30 minutes, or spent the >> same amount of time engaged in conversation. Then their heart rates were >> measured again, also for 15 minutes. >> >> After reciting poetry, the study participants' heart rates slowed to match >> their breathing rates in "harmonic interaction," according to the authors. >> Further, this effect persisted for up to 15 minutes after the recitation >> exercises, the investigators report in the International Journal of >> Cardiology. >> >> No similar effects were observed when the individuals engaged in everyday >> conversation, the researchers noted. >> >> In light of the findings, "we recommend to foster old skills like recitation >> of rhythmic poetry not only in therapy but also in education, in order to >> optimize early prevention of heart disease and other stress-related >> problems," von Bonin and Bettermann said. >> >> These findings may also help explain the calming effect of chanting, the >> researchers note, "since chanting of calming songs also generates a slow and >> deeper breathing." >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > I think all New Poetry should be tested for several decades by the FDA until its safety is proven. Till then, Tennyson, anyone? Paul Lake From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Sep 6 15:50:10 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:50:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart Message-ID: <1b8.5ec9454.2aaa60f2@cs.com> In a message dated 9/6/2002 12:09:08 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > > In a message dated 9/6/02 12:42:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > writes: > > >also generates a slow > > >and > > >deeper breathing." > > >_______________________________________________ > > > > > > > I have noticed a similar reaction among members of my own audiences when > I > > recite to them. > Marx was wrong...it seems the iamb is the opiate of the masses. > Finnegan Of course, what I might be observing is REM sleep. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Sep 6 16:01:45 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 15:01:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gunning for Poetry Message-ID: <200209062000.g86K0i455510@mx9.mx.voyager.net> My beside book recently has been Thom Gunn's *Collected Poems*--interesting in light the most recent flare-up of the Meter v. Free squabble, since Gunn is one of the crowd of notable contemporaries who refuses to take sides in this spurious war. That's one of several things I admire him for. Gunn is usually presented as something of a maverick, an outsider, and in many ways that's true. But not, perhaps, in his refusal to choose either/or between meter and vers libre. It strikes me that there have been in recent decades more poets than is often thought who have been switch-hitters, as it were,. I am thinking of not exactly obscure figures like James Wright, Hayden Carruth, Elizabeth Bishop, Robert Lowell, Donald Hall, Maxine Kumin, Donald Justice, May Swenson, Stanley Kunitz, Fred Chappell, Carolyn Kizer, Tom McGrath, Mona Van Duyn, Kenneth Koch, Seamus Heaney, Derek Walcott--poets who have, at least occasionally, wandered back and forth across the Great Divide. And of course a host of younger poets, including Ellen Bryant Voigt, Sydney Lea, Robert Pinsky, Dana Gioia and others. Gunn believes, as many do who have the experience, that good free verse is harder to write than good metrical verse. That seems a somewhat pointless comparison to me, but it may be so. Just ran across an article on Thom Gunn from the LA Weekly--a pretty interesting "human interest" piece on his life and work, with liberal quotation from his work: http://www.laweekly.com/ink/00/52/wls-bernhard.php A couple Gunns: The Cat and the Wind A small wind blows across the hedge into the yard. The cat cocks her ears - multitudinous rustling and crackling all around - her pupils dwindle to specks in her yellow eyes that stare first upward and then on every side unable to single out any one thing to pounce on, for all together as if orchestrated, twigs, leaves, small pebbles, pause and start and pause in their shifting, their rubbing against each other. She is still listening when the wind bustles already three gardens off. --Thom Gunn, fr. *Collected Poems*. _______________ Epitaph Walker within this circle, pause. Although they all died of one cause, Remember now how their lives were dense With fine, compacted difference. --Thom Gunn, fr. *Boss Cupid*. (engraved at AIDS Memorial Grove in Golden Gate Park) ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From gmcvay at patriot.net Fri Sep 6 17:41:31 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 17:41:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Paul, as I just said on another list, Collins has proven that he can write just as badly as Angelou when he really tries. It took Osama bin Laden to turn the Towers into rubble, but it took Collins to turn the rubble into crap. Gwyn From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Sep 6 18:47:34 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 17:47:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session Message-ID: <200209062246.g86MkXk55890@mx14.mx.voyager.net> Not to divert any Billybashing that folks may want to indulge in, but I'm curious whether anyone has seen what they consider to be a really *good* 9/11/01 poem yet. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ---------- >From: Gwyn McVay >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session >Date: Fri, Sep 6, 2002, 4:41 PM > >Paul, as I just said on another list, Collins has proven that he can write >just as badly as Angelou when he really tries. It took Osama bin Laden to >turn the Towers into rubble, but it took Collins to turn the rubble into >crap. > >Gwyn > From gmcvay at patriot.net Fri Sep 6 20:41:29 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 20:41:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash References: Message-ID: <3D794B36.26F36506@patriot.net> Dear Paul, I love "Jack And." This is what a parody should be. I have a violent cold today and this actually made me giggle, so perhaps, although not set in da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM, your parody of the good doc is medicinal too. Gwyn From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Sep 6 21:18:32 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 21:18:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash References: Message-ID: <005401c2560c$7c80b040$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Paul -- verry funny stuff. Thanks, SITUATIONS pub date October1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 3:18 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash > > Do you think the good Doctor Williams would suggest anything that was > > unhealthy? > > Oh, my God! You're right. He was a pediatrician. Think of the danger all > those innocent children were exposed to. Thank heaven Williams didn't write > nursery rhymes. Here's what a W. C. Williams version of "Jack and Jill" > might sound like. Imagine its unhealthy effects on the hearts of > > > > > Jack and > Jill climbed up the > > grassy knoll covered > With asphodels, that greeny flower, > to draw a > > bucket > Of water > from the depths of > the green earth > where Kore dwellls > > in eternity, beside > her dark lord. > Heedless, Jack > > plummeted > > suddenly > past the well-curb > > as Jill > sipped from > the mossy bucket. > It tasted > good to her. > It tasted good > to her, she reflected, unaware > Of the bloody crown > And slim white leg > disappearing, > solitary, > > into the dark > > cold spring. > > > > > > > Paul Lake, M. D. (Doctor of Metrics) > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Sep 7 07:28:45 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 07:28:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session In-Reply-To: <200209062246.g86MkXk55890@mx14.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: { Not to divert any Billybashing that folks may want to indulge in, but I'm { curious whether anyone has seen what they consider to be a really *good* { 9/11/01 poem yet. Nope, nor are we likely to. Stay tuned, though, 9/11/*02* poems are being published by the volume. Cheque your local bookmonger. Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. --Noam Chomsky Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Sep 7 13:18:48 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 13:18:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As my response to David here amply shows, I don't do well with numbers. Here are my top ten reasons: 10. Doing numbers well is just too nerdy. 9. Took driving and typing in high school instead of math. 8. I just ain't a numbers sort of guy. 7. Not enough fingers. 6. Not enough toes. 5. Words are abstract enough, and numbers just make things worse. 3. Never wanted to be rich. 2. Skipped learning times tables. 1. Duh! Hal "What, should we get rid of our ignorance, the very substance of our lives, merely in order to understand each other?" --R. P. Blackmur Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { Not to divert any Billybashing that folks may want to indulge in, but I'm { { curious whether anyone has seen what they consider to be a really *good* { { 9/11/01 poem yet. { { Nope, nor are we likely to. Stay tuned, though, 9/11/*02* poems are being { published by the volume. Cheque your local bookmonger. { { Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. { --Noam Chomsky { { Halvard Johnson { =============== { email: halvard at earthlink.net { website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From Cadaly at aol.com Sat Sep 7 19:19:37 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 19:19:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session Message-ID: <04628418.53FDAB59.00045B92@aol.com> I'm sorta partial to my own, but let me flog this: http://canwehaveourballback.com/8contributorsextra.htm Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Sep 7 19:28:47 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 16:28:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session References: <04628418.53FDAB59.00045B92@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D7A8BAE.6F50447@earthlink.net> Thanks. I especially like the Fanny Howe. - Jim Cadaly at aol.com wrote: > > I'm sorta partial to my own, but let me flog this: > > http://canwehaveourballback.com/8contributorsextra.htm > > Rgds, > Catherine Daly > cadaly at pacbell.net > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Sep 7 20:42:18 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 17:42:18 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session References: Message-ID: <3D7A9CEA.CBAF97@earthlink.net> Hey where does that Blackmur quote come from? Halvard Johnson wrote: > As my response to David here amply shows, I don't do > well with numbers. Here are my top ten reasons: > > 10. Doing numbers well is just too nerdy. > 9. Took driving and typing in high school > instead of math. > 8. I just ain't a numbers sort of guy. > 7. Not enough fingers. > 6. Not enough toes. > 5. Words are abstract enough, and numbers > just make things worse. > 3. Never wanted to be rich. > 2. Skipped learning times tables. > 1. Duh! > > Hal "What, should we get rid of our ignorance, > the very substance of our lives, merely in > order to understand each other?" > --R. P. Blackmur > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > { { Not to divert any Billybashing that folks may want to indulge in, but I'm > { { curious whether anyone has seen what they consider to be a really *good* > { { 9/11/01 poem yet. > { > { Nope, nor are we likely to. Stay tuned, though, 9/11/*02* poems are being > { published by the volume. Cheque your local bookmonger. > { > { Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. > { --Noam Chomsky > { > { Halvard Johnson > { =============== > { email: halvard at earthlink.net > { website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > { > { _______________________________________________ > { New-Poetry mailing list > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > { > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Sep 7 20:47:49 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 20:47:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session Message-ID: <18f.daf13cb.2aabf835@cs.com> That other Gwyn too mean. She need to be sent to corner--you go home now, Gwynbadspeler--you complain too much. Collins' poem was not that bad. Not that good either but the Poet Laureate works on deadline--when it moves him. I'm personally glad he reversed himself about writing a 9/11 poem. We are large--we contain multitudes--from A-Z. I was touched (as opposed to "tetched"). It was a nice way to open a session of Congress. The variety of the names says it all--we're all in this together. It's easy to be cynical when even a year has passed. Let us revere the names. After all, it's not "The Charge of the Light Brigade." Sam Nguyen (who adores the lovely accents of his neighbors, fellow Texans, and relatives) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmcvay at patriot.net Sat Sep 7 22:17:15 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 22:17:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session References: <18f.daf13cb.2aabf835@cs.com> Message-ID: <3D7AB30B.C66F5039@patriot.net> Samm with the duplication of consonants, It is not cynicism that moves me to deplore the Collins poem; it is that he has taken a profound human tragedy, a horrible loss many are still trying to make sense of, a vaporizing of many upon many human lives, and turned it into a deadly boring poem. Maya Lin did the listing of names, too, of course, at the Vietnam Veterans' wall. However, she did not feel the need to insert herself as the I-speaker, as Collins perpetually does; in his other poems, this works fine, but here, it seems intrusive, a need to control the uncontrollable grief by asserting the authorial. A *good* 9/11 poem, by contrast, is Pinsky's, which I believe is available online at washingtonpost.com. It is nuanced. It is subtle. It asks rather than tells. There is more dimension to it than one might necessarily glean from a first reading. It questions. It is provocative. It could not have been patriotically read before Congress. It is more humane; it is deeper; and to my ear -- this is where Paul will perk up -- it is more musical. It is not cynicism at all. Two poets I was in grad school with were endangered witnesses in New York. Allison Cobb was trapped in the subway under the WTC. Betsy Andrews saw bodies falling from the windows. Both might easily have been killed in the disaster. Both will bear this event forever. And Collins goes and writes a fucking boring, cliched poem about all this. Makes me wanna holler, throw up both my hands. Gwyn of the correct spelling From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Sep 7 23:24:56 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 22:24:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky's 9/11 Message-ID: <200209080323.g883NuG29405@mx10.mx.voyager.net> The poem by Robert Pinsky that Gwyn mentioned: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37772-2002Sep4.html ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Sep 8 00:11:18 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 00:11:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session References: <04628418.53FDAB59.00045B92@aol.com> <3D7A8BAE.6F50447@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002101c256ed$c9d03aa0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Some very good poems on that site, but none of them were written as a public, occasional poem, to be read to a special session of Congress. And none of them would exactly work in that context. SITUATIONS pub date August 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session > Thanks. I especially like the Fanny Howe. > > - Jim > > Cadaly at aol.com wrote: > > > > I'm sorta partial to my own, but let me flog this: > > > > http://canwehaveourballback.com/8contributorsextra.htm > > > > Rgds, > > Catherine Daly > > cadaly at pacbell.net > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Thom424 at aol.com Sun Sep 8 00:18:13 2002 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 00:18:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins' "The Names" Message-ID: <189.d93416c.2aac2985@aol.com> Would someone please repost Collins' "The Names." Thanks. From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Sep 8 00:29:19 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 00:29:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session In-Reply-To: <3D7A9CEA.CBAF97@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Can't say for sure, Chris. I think I picked it up when someone else quoted it. Don't remember who that was either? It's been on my list for a while now. Hal Caution: The Moving Walkway is Ending Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Hey where does that Blackmur quote come from? { { { { Halvard Johnson wrote: { { > As my response to David here amply shows, I don't do { > well with numbers. Here are my top ten reasons: { > { > 10. Doing numbers well is just too nerdy. { > 9. Took driving and typing in high school { > instead of math. { > 8. I just ain't a numbers sort of guy. { > 7. Not enough fingers. { > 6. Not enough toes. { > 5. Words are abstract enough, and numbers { > just make things worse. { > 3. Never wanted to be rich. { > 2. Skipped learning times tables. { > 1. Duh! { > { > Hal "What, should we get rid of our ignorance, { > the very substance of our lives, merely in { > order to understand each other?" { > --R. P. Blackmur { > Halvard Johnson { > =============== { > email: halvard at earthlink.net { > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { > { > { > { { Not to divert any Billybashing that folks may want to indulge in, but I'm { > { { curious whether anyone has seen what they consider to be a really *good* { > { { 9/11/01 poem yet. { > { { > { Nope, nor are we likely to. Stay tuned, though, 9/11/*02* poems are being { > { published by the volume. Cheque your local bookmonger. { > { { > { Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. { > { --Noam Chomsky { > { { > { Halvard Johnson { > { =============== { > { email: halvard at earthlink.net { > { website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { > { { > { _______________________________________________ { > { New-Poetry mailing list { > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { > { { > { > _______________________________________________ { > New-Poetry mailing list { > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Sep 8 10:47:05 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 10:47:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky's 9/11 Message-ID: <186.db62a92.2aacbce9@cs.com> In a message dated 9/7/2002 10:25:01 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37772-2002Sep4.html For the occasion of the opening of Congress, I prefer Collins's. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Sep 8 11:03:09 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 11:03:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ricardo Pau-Llosa, "The Unlikely Origin of Metaphor" Message-ID: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Sep 8 11:52:22 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 11:52:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Michael Palmer, "Notes for Echo Lake, 11" Message-ID: Notes for Echo Lake, 11 An eye remembers history by the pages of the house in flames, rolls forward like a rose, head to hip, recalling words by their accidents. An ear announces a vertical light without shadow, letters figured across the forehead and wrist, there are no vowels or nouns. Write to me soon I can say nothing more for now. He grew accustomed to the spells of dizziness. I can see about a foot beyond my outstretched arm. I gave up teaching long ago. He expected to die young as if he were immortal. There is a perfect architecture. He grew used to falling unexpectedly. My left eye is closed so I will read these sentences aloud. Mathematics is a minor category of music. The day ends this way each day until it ends. Words listen to the words until you hear them. The words form circles. Water transmits sound. The words cannot be spelled. The table was made of glass and decided to shatter. The dog had an unfortu- nate habit of farting when important guests were present. They made love by the fire while her husband slept. This mushroom is beautiful and has no name. Lake receives light. By stages you dismember the story. He explained that the word contained silent *l*. They parted and he entered a cloud. The words do not form circles. I don't think I have a right to leave your letter unanswered. I would like to keep working. I think I see a new way out. The following are matters concerning me and the roof of my mouth. The letters combined into the word for silence. The song came in stanzas as is the manner of such songs. Those who then heard it laughed themselves to death. I was first and last among them. I fled in the direction of the invisible city. I wept before its walls. That night I invented the following dream. It is evening and my father and I are walking east toward Fifth Avenue on the street where we once lived. Every other building has been reduced to rubble as if by an aerial attack. The scene thus resembles those photographs of bombed cities I remember from childhood, except that the buildings remaining appear completely unharmed. Eventually we attempt to enter a favorite restaurant of his but realize that it is in a similar building on a parallel street one block north. We turn away and I wake, as always violently trembling. Once I saw the master of memory sleeping at his desk. Here I will insert the word 'real' to indicate a tree. She brushed against the decanter with her left arm, spilling its contents onto the tile floor. We woke at the same moment and looked up. Here I will insert the word 'red' to indicate a tree. Number imitates measure in a flowered dress. I learned to count to ten and back again. Her fingers sought the indicators at the base of his neck. The words disappeared as he read them. The leaves fell early. Snow caused our arms to fold. Of the seven million one-half have died. Speech seems a welcome impossibility, the room a congeries of useless objects mistaken for events. The song came in fragments as is the nature of such songs. I rose and departed by the far door, no longer able to see. I played among the rats by the river's edge, counted up the condoms and bottles and human limbs, then slept. Wednesday passed in tranquillity. Merchants are building towers, each higher than the last. I shared breakfast with a cat, dinner with an owl. The mountain quivers on the surface of the lake. Your letters reach me at monthly intervals. The angle of the light has changed greatly this past week. I have learned to use my eyes and to distrust them. I am dependent on everything. Words gather into triangles and vertical lines. The sentences they form should not exist. Poems will sometimes over- come them, or else stones. --Michael Palmer fr. *Notes for Echo Lake*, 1981 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 8 12:45:48 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 11:45:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins' "The Names" Message-ID: <200209081644.g88Gimi61222@mx7.mx.voyager.net> Thom, both Pinsky's and Collins's poems are currently linked at Poetry Daily on their News page. http://www.poems.com/news.htm ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ---------- >From: Thom424 at aol.com >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Collins' "The Names" >Date: Sat, Sep 7, 2002, 11:18 PM > >Would someone please repost Collins' "The Names." Thanks. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Thom424 at aol.com Sun Sep 8 12:52:41 2002 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 12:52:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins' "The Names" Message-ID: <42.2d098488.2aacda59@aol.com> Thanks, David.... Thom From Thom424 at aol.com Sun Sep 8 12:54:06 2002 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 12:54:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins' "The Names" Message-ID: <11d.16997f27.2aacdaae@aol.com> Thanks, David....in light of the recent discussion on this list about the merits of these two poems, it might be fun to put both poems in front of our students and see what their responses are.... Thom From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 8 12:57:24 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 11:57:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmur quote Message-ID: <200209081656.g88GuNg82605@mx10.mx.voyager.net> William Matthews used the Blackmur quote as epigraph to his book *A Happy Childhood*. I'd also be interested to know where it came from. I'm guessing it's somewhere in *Form & Value in Modern Poetry*, but the chances of my wading back into that book soon are remote. "What, should we get rid of our ignorance, >{ > the very substance of our lives, merely in >{ > order to understand each other?" >{ > --R. P. Blackmur ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 8 14:19:12 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 13:19:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session Message-ID: <200209081818.g88IIB703028@mx8.mx.voyager.net> I like the idea of using the Collins and Pinsky poems in a classroom comparison. Opens up all sorts of issues regarding the public uses and abuses of poetry. For my money, the Pinsky is a far better poem, but I don't think the Collins is quite so stinky bad as some do. An honorable attempt at a very difficult task. Neither do I think that we'll be reading it alongside Auden's "September 1, 1939" six decades from now. I've heard tell that there is a poem by W. S. Merwin on 9/11. Does anyone know it? The word I got was that it appeared in The New Yorker, but I can't find it there, and begin to suspect it appeared elsewhere. Or maybe it was just so oblique I didn't recognized it as being about 9/11. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ---------- >From: Gwyn McVay >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session >Date: Sat, Sep 7, 2002, 9:17 PM > > >A *good* 9/11 poem, by contrast, is Pinsky's, which I believe is >available online at washingtonpost.com. It is nuanced. It is subtle. It >asks rather than tells. There is more dimension to it than one might >necessarily glean from a first reading. It questions. It is provocative. >It could not have been patriotically read before Congress. It is more >humane; it is deeper; and to my ear -- this is where Paul will perk up >-- it is more musical. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 8 14:38:56 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 13:38:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Garrison's 9/11 Message-ID: <200209081837.g88Ibue1035706@mx1.mx.voyager.net> Edward Hirsch in today's Washington Post quotes a poem by Deborah Garrison on 9/11, "I Saw You Walking"--good to add to the growing pile for comparison. I'm not a big fan of her poetry, but this one's pretty good, I say. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43701-2002Sep5.html ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From jpjones at ihug.com.au Sun Sep 8 16:48:47 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 06:48:47 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session In-Reply-To: <04628418.53FDAB59.00045B92@aol.com> Message-ID: The Australian poet Alison Croggon also edits a web mag called Masthead. A special on the 9/11 events was put up last year at http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/us/index.html. There is both poetry and prose from writers of a number of countries, a lot of it written in the immediate aftermath. I can say that there is an early version of a poem of my own, an Australian view of things, which is at: http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/us/jones.html best, Jill On Sunday, September 8, 2002, at 09:19 AM, Cadaly at aol.com wrote: > I'm sorta partial to my own, but let me flog this: > > http://canwehaveourballback.com/8contributorsextra.htm > > Rgds, > Catherine Daly > cadaly at pacbell.net > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________________ Jill Jones http://homepages.com.au/~jpjones Latest book: Screens Jets Heaven. Available now from Salt Publishing http://www.saltpublishing.com From gmcvay at patriot.net Sun Sep 8 22:34:08 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 22:34:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mine References: <04628418.53FDAB59.00045B92@aol.com> <3D7A8BAE.6F50447@earthlink.net> <002101c256ed$c9d03aa0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <3D7C089C.21D8475C@patriot.net> Since I dissed one poem and praised another (I liked Deborah Garrison's, too), I must offer mine for diss or praise or apathy: All The People, Mommy, All The People Our soldiers die twice every morning. Officers fly out of windows, support poison gas with their bodies. Ashes, ashes. I don?t need to say "all fall down." Jealous trouble when concrete gets wet, weakens, the lover of steel glows too bright. Everybody?s a metallurgist. Everybody?s an architect, wise now in the failure of each Tarot-card tower. I could marry a ceramic knife. I could grow a clean body, spare, pure white, pour sacrifice down the uniform of jelly, of napalm. All the people, Mommy, all the people. Abbie Hoffman rails in his grave: I only meant to levitate, never smash. Wrong is wrong. And he?s right. Secretaries at the Pentagon, pouring coffee to get through, and suddenly bright day ruptures late, and no more worry. You could build a lake in that hole the shape of an airplane, name it Lake Promise. A cut that never cures. We are all Fisher Kings with Lear?s Cordelia, too, but no throne. All the people, Mommy. Can my feet burst? Can the ground with grass burst under me? From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu Sun Sep 8 23:01:48 2002 From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 22:01:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mine In-Reply-To: <3D7C089C.21D8475C@patriot.net> Message-ID: Since I first posted the Collins' poem to the list, I will offer one of my own as well. My poem was written after the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center (where my brother worked at the time and until September 11, 2001) and published long before the 9/11 attacks. In both cases my brother's job as a supervisor entailed assisting the authorities in their investigations and, in the case of 9/11, tracking down those workers from his company's floor in the mid-70s who had lived and identifying those who were missing and had died. Although this poem was written before 9/11, I think it still applies: EARLY EVENING _These and all else were to me the same as they are to you..._ Walt Whitman, "Crossing Brooklyn Ferry" Past the pedestrians, beyond the exhausts of automobiles, above all the tall buildings, a semi-translucent smear of clouds stretches across this skyline, as if to embrace Walt's city in its dinginess. Already, the automatic streetlamps, bewildered by an early darkness, have been lit, taxi headlights flare down the avenues. _What is it then between us?_ the poet once asked, and his words lie tangled in my darkening thoughts this evening, as sharp angles of shadows mutilate the Manhattan Whitman once knew. Piles of a special afternoon _Post_ headlining terrorist attacks-- stacked between remaining morning editions of the _News_ and _Times--still fill street-corner newsstands. A foghorn sounds from somewhere on the East River. Construction workers descend their scaffolding, skeletal metal glittering like glass under its string of bare bulbs. A crescent moon arrives over the river, its worn image and waning glow prematurely peering down onto the city's parcels, doing little to illuminate the partial darkness of dusk, offering no comfort for the weary at this end of day. --Edward Byrne [_East of Omaha_, Pecan Grove Press, 1998] -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From antrobin at clipper.net Sun Sep 8 23:03:40 2002 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 20:03:40 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mine References: <04628418.53FDAB59.00045B92@aol.com> <3D7A8BAE.6F50447@earthlink.net> <002101c256ed$c9d03aa0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <3D7C089C.21D8475C@patriot.net> Message-ID: <01e801c257ad$818793e0$14baefd8@0021936706> Gwyn, Gwynn, and Nguyen, I don't think Collins' is all THAT bad...it seems like a Billy Collins poem, which is to say, okay. Pinsky's is a bit better, but it seems like Pinsky poem, which is to say, okay. I missed Garrison's...where is it again? I like Gwyn's. Did Gwynn write one? I didn't write a whole poem about it (well, I did, but it's embarassingly bad and will never see the public) but I do devote and entire three-line stanza in my poem "Important Things" to it....(find at www.shampoopoetry.com --it's in #14). Tony *** "The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." Emily Dickinson *** "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be better left alone." Kenneth Koch *** ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gwyn McVay" To: Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 7:34 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Mine Since I dissed one poem and praised another (I liked Deborah Garrison's, too), I must offer mine for diss or praise or apathy: All The People, Mommy, All The People Our soldiers die twice every morning. Officers fly out of windows, support poison gas with their bodies. Ashes, ashes. I don't need to say "all fall down." Jealous trouble when concrete gets wet, weakens, the lover of steel glows too bright. Everybody's a metallurgist. Everybody's an architect, wise now in the failure of each Tarot-card tower. I could marry a ceramic knife. I could grow a clean body, spare, pure white, pour sacrifice down the uniform of jelly, of napalm. All the people, Mommy, all the people. Abbie Hoffman rails in his grave: I only meant to levitate, never smash. Wrong is wrong. And he's right. Secretaries at the Pentagon, pouring coffee to get through, and suddenly bright day ruptures late, and no more worry. You could build a lake in that hole the shape of an airplane, name it Lake Promise. A cut that never cures. We are all Fisher Kings with Lear's Cordelia, too, but no throne. All the people, Mommy. Can my feet burst? Can the ground with grass burst under me? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Sep 9 00:06:56 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:06:56 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session References: Message-ID: <01cf01c257b6$57ff9ff0$5e864cca@JROSS2> I agree -- Collins and (in)digestion = CRAP. As to Angelou, give me Coleman any day! The same problems people have with Angelou are the ones I have with Les Murray here in Australia, and he's supposed to be one of our best! My arse ... Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gwyn McVay" To: Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 5:41 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Collins poem for Congressional session > Paul, as I just said on another list, Collins has proven that he can write > just as badly as Angelou when he really tries. It took Osama bin Laden to > turn the Towers into rubble, but it took Collins to turn the rubble into > crap. > > Gwyn > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Sep 9 00:16:58 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 00:16:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Mine Message-ID: Did Gwynn write one? 9-12 He says: My daughter cries and asks last night What she should do. I tell her, Baby, look, Your mom's from Panama, your friends are white And black, we're baked potatoes--and that book You dropped there says we all belong here too. I've been here longer than the kids who buy Their beer and smokes from me. And someday you May have to tell your daughter not to cry. Your papa was a student when the Shah Went under, and they called me ?camel jock.' Some of them were my friends. I don't know whether They ever think of that. Pick up that sock And do your homework. This is America. This is our country. We're in this together. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Mon Sep 9 01:20:37 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 22:20:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mine References: <04628418.53FDAB59.00045B92@aol.com> <3D7A8BAE.6F50447@earthlink.net> <002101c256ed$c9d03aa0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <3D7C089C.21D8475C@patriot.net> Message-ID: <3D7C2FA5.DAA56173@earthlink.net> I like it.... its associations somehow connecting war with a mindset that "thrives" or at least is prevalent even in what many would call "domestic" "peace"--- c Gwyn McVay wrote: > Since I dissed one poem and praised another (I liked Deborah Garrison's, > too), I must offer mine for diss or praise or apathy: > > All The People, Mommy, All The People > > Our soldiers die twice every morning. > Officers fly out of windows, support > poison gas with their bodies. Ashes, ashes. > I don?t need to say "all fall down." > > Jealous trouble when concrete gets wet, > weakens, the lover of steel glows too bright. > Everybody?s a metallurgist. > Everybody?s an architect, > wise now in the failure of each Tarot-card tower. > > I could marry a ceramic knife. > I could grow a clean body, > > spare, pure white, pour sacrifice > down the uniform of jelly, of napalm. > All the people, Mommy, all the people. > > Abbie Hoffman rails in his grave: > I only meant to levitate, > never smash. Wrong is wrong. And he?s right. > Secretaries at the Pentagon, > pouring coffee to get through, and suddenly bright day > ruptures late, and no more worry. > You could build a lake in that hole > the shape of an airplane, name it Lake Promise. > A cut that never cures. We are all Fisher Kings > with Lear?s Cordelia, too, but no throne. > All the people, Mommy. Can my feet burst? > > Can the ground with grass burst under me? > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Mon Sep 9 11:39:22 2002 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 08:39:22 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020909083534.00f0569c@medicine.nodak.edu> At 08:41 PM 9/6/02 -0400, Gwyn McVay wrote: >Dear Paul, > >I love "Jack And." This is what a parody should be. I have a violent >cold today and this actually made me giggle, so perhaps, although not >set in da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM, your parody of the good doc >is medicinal too. > >Gwyn >_______________________________________________ A post-weekend response... Gwyn (single n) raises the question about whether humor in verse has any beneficial health effects (aside from meter and rhyme). If there is some synergy of effects, maybe there is an opportunity here for Sam Gwynn (two n's) to have a wealthy retirement. In reading the various reposts (ripostes?), what kept running through my head was Housman: The cow, the old cow, she is dead; It sleeps well, the horned head: We poor lads, 'tis our turn now To hear such tunes as killed the cow. Pretty friendship 'tis to rhyme Your friends to death before their time... Clearly Housman did not have the benefits of modern medical science. But then he would not have drunk so much, to our lasting detriment. Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Sep 9 10:00:47 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:00:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash Message-ID: <16f.136f8cb8.2aae038f@cs.com> In a message dated 9/9/2002 8:39:26 AM Central Daylight Time, rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu writes: > Gwyn (single n) raises the question about whether humor in verse has any > beneficial health effects (aside from meter and rhyme). If there is some > synergy of effects, maybe there is an opportunity here for Sam Gwynn (two > n's) to have a wealthy retirement. > I think most medical studies would confirm that a little laughter never had any harmful effects, unless, of course, one were laughing at Robin Williams, which would be a sign of serious dementia. > In reading the various reposts (ripostes?), what kept running through my > head was Housman: He's been running through my head--in a garland briefer than a girl's--for a long, long time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB at aol.com Mon Sep 9 10:01:05 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:01:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Mine Message-ID: <1be.d62f8e3.2aae03a1@aol.com> In Front of Six Windows, New York City 2001 Fat with drink No good news or bad The mail arrives once a day its tirade of bills and catalogues for rugged clothing Three weeks since I've been outside like Proust perhaps like Vermeer falling down The thought of which jails me inside anxiety I know not of nor can count Glass by glass the day unfolds the first screw driver always a flower By dinner time I roughly feel human Each day tackling a new scheme Washing stockings in the bath tub throwing away old student essays In January there was New York City The ah ha of French onion soup Two blocks from ground zero on the way back home to civilization There was nothing we could have said It never is or dies suddenly As long as it seems new the first drink of the day A week a cigarette following a meal The bite of alcohol instead of the pouring desperation of adding and adding and adding non-existence to the Disneyland lights of Times Square. From msnider at mindspring.com Mon Sep 9 10:28:41 2002 From: msnider at mindspring.com (msnider at mindspring.com) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 10:28:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sept 11 Poems Message-ID: Pinsky has an interesting "Guided Anthology" to 9/11 poems at Slate: http://slate.msn.com/?id=2070444 Neither his nor Collins's poema are mentioned. Sam Gwynn--I saw your poem (on this list, I believe) last Sept 13--I memorized it and said it to many of my friends. I'm imnpressed that you;ve made it better. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Sep 9 10:25:55 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 09:25:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash In-Reply-To: <3D794B36.26F36506@patriot.net> Message-ID: on 9/6/02 7:41 PM, Gwyn McVay at gmcvay at patriot.net wrote: > Dear Paul, > > I love "Jack And." This is what a parody should be. I have a violent > cold today and this actually made me giggle, so perhaps, although not > set in da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM, your parody of the good doc > is medicinal too. > > Gwyn > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Thanks, Gwyn. The parody popped out of nowhere as I responded to a comment on our list. Glad to see another Billy-basher on the list, too. Paul From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Sep 9 10:52:54 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 09:52:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 9/11 poem, sort of Message-ID: I think I posted an earlier version of this poem, which will appear in Sewanee Review soon along with another on a 9/11 theme. I'm working on another. Paul Lake Charlemagne's Vision Remembering his father's last campaign To purge the south of Saracen and Moor And how Grandfather stopped the tide from Spain, Driving the Muslims from the fields of Tours, King Charlemagne surveyed the scattered dead At Roncesvalles, where Roland's ivory horn Lay shattered on the ground beneath his head, Then left his slaughtered Paladins, to mourn, And saw, in troubled sleep, a second Rome Encoiled by hydra heads--a living net Encircling London, Paris, Amsterdam, Each serpent-head poised like a minaret Above the drowsy heart of Christendom-- Loud cries, bright shafts, red flames, a streaking jet, Then bodies bowed down in a vast salaam. From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Sep 9 11:08:46 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 11:08:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart In-Reply-To: References: <200209061528.g86FSJD40750@mx4.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3D7C813E.24266.AF9BAC@localhost> > Some passages of Wordsworth are better than counting sheep. > Paul Lake A Sonnet JK Stephen Two voices are there: one is of the deep; It learns the storm-cloud's thunderous melody, Now roars, now murmurs with the changing sea, Now bird-like pipes, now closes soft in sleep: And one is of an old half-witted sheep Which bleats articulate monotony, And indicates that two and one are three, That grass is green, lakes damp, and mountains steep: And, Wordsworth, both are thine: at certain times Forth from the heart of thy melodious rhymes, The form and pressure of high thoughts will burst: At other times -- good Lord! I'd rather be Quite unacquainted with the A.B.C. Than write such hopeless rubbish as thy worst. --JK Stephen __________________________ Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Sep 9 11:40:55 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 10:40:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] News Flash: Poetry Calms the Heart In-Reply-To: <3D7C813E.24266.AF9BAC@localhost> Message-ID: on 9/9/02 10:08 AM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote: >> Some passages of Wordsworth are better than counting sheep. >> Paul Lake > > A Sonnet > JK Stephen > > Two voices are there: one is of the deep; > It learns the storm-cloud's thunderous melody, > Now roars, now murmurs with the changing sea, > Now bird-like pipes, now closes soft in sleep: > And one is of an old half-witted sheep > Which bleats articulate monotony, > And indicates that two and one are three, > That grass is green, lakes damp, and mountains steep: > And, Wordsworth, both are thine: at certain times > Forth from the heart of thy melodious rhymes, > The form and pressure of high thoughts will burst: > At other times -- good Lord! I'd rather be > Quite unacquainted with the A.B.C. > Than write such hopeless rubbish as thy worst. > > --JK Stephen > __________________________ > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Thanks, Marcus, for reminding me of this delicious reaction to Wordsworth. Paul Lake From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Sep 9 15:11:06 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 14:11:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 9/11 essay Message-ID: There's a lovely essay in The New Republic online that captures beautifully the sense expressed by Gwyn McVay of the inadequacy of so many poems and other writings on the events of 9/11. The accompanying photo (about which the essay is genuinely eloquent) will haunt you forever. Here's the link: http://www.thenewrepublic.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020909&s=diarist090902 Paul Lake From res173bl at verizon.net Mon Sep 9 11:57:47 2002 From: res173bl at verizon.net (res173bl at verizon.net) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:57:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] catching up Message-ID: <20020909155747.KAOH26612.out004.verizon.net@[127.0.0.1]> Dear All: I'm just back from a long trip while set to "no-mail'" -- could someone conveniently and kindly re-post the Pinsky & Collins 9/11 poems under discussion? on on, Barry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Sep 10 11:07:18 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:07:18 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] September 10, 2002 Message-ID: <3D7E0AA5.4283646C@earthlink.net> September 10, 2002 1. The passengers, pilots, hijackers, and flight attendants all make their peace 2. except those who do not see it coming and the ants, beetles, and grubs 3. still, there is someone at the window 4. somewhere, through their own long lens less than a split second 5. forever, falling is aftermath 6. gangster talk: you can't kill them twice 7. yes you can, you can you can always 8. falling forever into a window 9. a split blade of grass a second summer 10. in early fall coming and going 11. give them peace. - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The fundamental delusion of humanity is to suppose that I am here and you are out there." - Yasutani Roshi ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From JforJames at aol.com Tue Sep 10 11:22:16 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:22:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject: Reviewers Wanted Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 06:41:03 EDT From: TAllenTW at AOL.COM Subject: Reviewers Wanted The Terrible Work site, at terriblework.co.uk, needs reviewers - unpaid slog but a great opportunity if giving your critical opinion, airing your enthusiasms and slamming the awful is what you are into. I am especially looking for the following. 1. In-depth reviews/articles on Brit and/or American innovative and experimental poetry. 2. Reviews of mainstream and semi-mainstream books and pamphlets by open minded and unprejudiced critics who are willing to cross borders and consider wider issues and contexts - yea, that one's a sod. 3. Reviewers who have web access and an interest in on-line poetry magazines and sites. This is one area I personally find daunting, there is so much out there, it needs sorting, it needs maps. Please contact b.c. if interested. All the best Tim Allen From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Sep 10 11:33:21 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:33:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Thomas McGrath, "War Resisters' Song" Message-ID: War Resisters' Song Come live with me and be my love And we will all the pleasures prove-- Or such as presidents may spare Within the decorum of Total War. By bosky glades, by babbling streams (Babbling of Fission, His remains) We discover happiness' isotope And live the half-life of our hope. While Geiger counters sweetly click In concentration camps we'll fuck. Called traitors? That's but sticks and stones We've Strontium 90 in our bones! And thus, adjust to our lot, Our kisses will be doubly hot-- Fornicating (like good machines) We'll try the chances of our genes. So (if Insufficient Grace Hath not fouled thy secret place Nor fall-out burnt my balls away) Who knows? but we may get a boy-- Some paragon with but one head And no more brains than is allowed; And between his legs, where once was love, Monsters to pack the future with. --Thomas McGrath fr. *Selected Poems: 1938-1988* Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Arielpf123 at aol.com Tue Sep 10 12:41:00 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:41:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Mine Message-ID: <185.e1eaada.2aaf7a9c@aol.com> thank you to all of you for these poems......which are so moving and various and beautiful... patf From barry.spacks at verizon.net Tue Sep 10 14:50:14 2002 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 11:50:14 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] the gathering of 9/11 poems Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020910114623.009ea950@incoming.verizon.net> (to add yet another ) A FORMAL FEELING COMES Dazed, a woman moves toward safety covered with the dust of the disaster. We do not see, in this photograph, the crumbling towers: only one lone dignified woman clad from top to toe in dirt and smoke, her eyes maintaining purpose to survive but with an underglint as from a fear-crazed horse. One woman, then, completely covered with the pulverized remnants of our tragedy, moving as in a primitive myth, a dusted, fantastic figure, this modern person caught in pre- or post-civilization, fashionably turned out in Manhattan while passing through an aboriginal dream. This image, speaking of dread and loss, of unleashed rage, apocalypse, still spares us some imagining of hope, for underneath the dust-patina upon her we see how she was dressed up for her day in the great city: pants suit, smart purse dangling from her shoulder and pearls around her neck as she makes her slow traumatic way away: pearls that still, despite all loss and horror, yield a memory of promise, an instance in their beauty of the civilized that still remains and may prevail; pearls that through it all give off their Vermeer gleam. -- Barry Spacks *********** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From simon at ipfw.edu Tue Sep 10 15:07:48 2002 From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:07:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poems by others Message-ID: Honeycomb Dean Young One wakes up glad that the errands of sleep are over. The day is your to fritter away on consciousness, goldfinches hammering foil over foil, the sunglasses missing a wing drawn from the glove box in sudden sun. So what will your allotment of joy and terror be? a blood test? The usual business at the rink? All along the hollow body drill holes an inch and a half apart and you?ve got yourself a flute. Fire penetrates the brainpan like syrup, sweet glue, its blush turns out to be pigment ground from bricks. Such is the constitution of matter in these dimensions ? it?s always something, some gorilla in the parking lot or the boys in research cooking up a new spill. But what fun to walk the resilient walkways over the roof of Dis, just here and there from the sewer lids? nipples, bursts of steam. This is the place where I was a student. See, here are students now memorizing the parts of the bee. And here?s where I first tried to speak to my only love, on this bridge over a sheet of ice. It was only later, at Ye Olde Wash House, that the process seemed so unlikely and ordained by the random plunking of particle into particle which in one case levels mountains, another produces light. _Skid_ U of Pittsburgh P 2002, 44-45 regards, beth lee From DICK at watson.ibm.com Tue Sep 10 15:13:18 2002 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 02 15:13:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins' and Pinsky's poems Message-ID: <200209101924.g8AJONg58726@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com> I've just read both - thanks for the pointer, David Graham - and they seem to me quite different. Collins' seems to me more appropriate - more imbued with an honest personal reaction to the fact that many lives were ruthlessly ended, and what that reaction might be in a comfortable, ongoing life - basically, that in all the responses to the world that we find good to live in, the fact of the lost lives persists. One has to read Collins' poems a few times to appreciate the purity of the language. Pinsky's poem is much more "deconstructive," if I may say so. He talks about the mechanics of how we saw what happened, and our quickly-jaded reactions, how we suffocate in media, how normal human reactions and meditations - which Collins describes so well, and Pinsky is either unaware of, or chooses not to address - are quickly perverted by a kind of cynicism. The story about firefighters writing SS #s on their arms doesn't ring true, or else it's a kind of s.o.p. for their job - but he doesn't say. The symbolism of the dollar bill strikes me as mawkish. Richard From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Sep 10 15:12:55 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:12:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] the gathering of 9/11 poems In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020910114623.009ea950@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: My 9/11 Poem Waking from the dream of safety, we slip into the dream of danger. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From tedmacker at yahoo.com Tue Sep 10 16:10:39 2002 From: tedmacker at yahoo.com (Edward Macker) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #964 - 5 msgs In-Reply-To: <200209101601.g8AG19622434@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20020910201039.12339.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Could anyone recommend a story-driven book-length contemporary poem that has a male narrator? Thanks, --Teddy Macker __________________________________________________ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute From antrobin at clipper.net Tue Sep 10 16:16:48 2002 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:16:48 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #964 - 5 msgs References: <20020910201039.12339.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015901c25907$011212c0$8faeefd8@0021936706> Mmm....The Biography of Red by anne carson has a male protagonist...and it's very good. Tony *** "The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." Emily Dickinson *** "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be better left alone." Kenneth Koch *** ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Macker" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 1:10 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #964 - 5 msgs > > > Could anyone recommend a story-driven book-length > contemporary poem that has a male narrator? > > Thanks, > --Teddy Macker > > > __________________________________________________ > Yahoo! - We Remember > 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost > http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Sep 10 17:43:38 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:43:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Story/Book/Male Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EC2@mail.ripon.edu> > Could anyone recommend a story-driven book-length > contemporary poem that has a male narrator? > > Thanks, > --Teddy Macker > Fred Chappell. *Midquest*. LSU Press. Brendan Galvin. *Wampanoag Traveler: Being, in Letters, the Life and Times of Loranzo Newcomb, American and Natural Historian: A Poem*. LSU Press. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Sep 10 18:55:27 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:55:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Story/Book/Male In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EC2@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910173824.02244e30@mail.ilstu.edu> James Merrill's _The Changing Light at Sandover_ might satisfy, though it's ostensibly ouija- and not story-driven. Amn't sure what might qualify as story drivien. Would Kenneth Koch's "Impressions of Africa" qualify? It's book length and is a chronicle of his stays throughout Africa (in _On the Edge_ [Penguin]). Paul Muldoon's "Yarrow" is a 90 page "exploded sestina" chronicling the remembrance of his mother over the space of a few seconds. And though not entirely "booklength," Muldoon's "Incantata" is chapbook length and is an elegy that chronicles (in the manner of a story) his love affair with the artist Mary Farl (sp?) Powers. Haven't read AShbery's _Girls on the Run_ but it is a booklength poem isn't it? Narrated by who? Might want to check that out. And of Ammon's _Tape for the Turn of the Year_, is this a story? after a few minutes rumination I am now beginning to wonder what a story is I'm starting to freak out about what a story is. I mean, the Brendan Galvin piece is patchworky in the way that epistle-stories are, yet it is ostensibly about a "life." The genre rules of a story are I'm sure easily knowable but are probably, too, much debatable? Gabe At 04:43 PM 9/10/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > Could anyone recommend a story-driven book-length > > contemporary poem that has a male narrator? > > > > Thanks, > > --Teddy Macker > > >Fred Chappell. *Midquest*. LSU Press. > >Brendan Galvin. *Wampanoag Traveler: Being, in Letters, the Life and Times >of Loranzo Newcomb, American and Natural Historian: A Poem*. LSU Press. > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >======================================== > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmcvay at patriot.net Tue Sep 10 19:02:01 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:02:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Story/Book/Male In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910173824.02244e30@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: > Paul Muldoon's "Yarrow" is a 90 page "exploded sestina" chronicling the This frightens me, as my AOL screen name for many years has been "sestina." Gwyn (with a bang, not a whimper) From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Tue Sep 10 20:43:35 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:43:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #964 - 5 msgs In-Reply-To: <20020910201039.12339.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20020910201039.12339.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Derek Walcott's Omeros. -- From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Sep 10 19:09:13 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:09:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Story/Book/Male In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910173824.02244e30@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910180354.0292ada0@mail.ilstu.edu> Gwyn, I was preparing a post just a second ago about blowing things up and Quakerism,and your talk there of ex;plo;ing---> -p -d- yourself (notice how the p and the d are expulsed from the word "exploding" in the foregoing phrase) and your thoughts gave me the final nudge. It follows. At 07:02 PM 9/10/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > Paul Muldoon's "Yarrow" is a 90 page "exploded sestina" chronicling the > > >This frightens me, as my AOL screen name for many years has been >"sestina." > >Gwyn (with a bang, not a whimper) > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Sep 10 19:12:04 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:12:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] preface to the exploding mohammed atta In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910173824.02244e30@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910180936.0292a8a0@mail.ilstu.edu> "There is a spirit which I feel that delights to do no evil, nor to revenge any wrong, but delights to endure all things..... Its hope is to outlive all wrath and contention, and to weary out all exaltation and cruelty, or whatever is of a nature contrary to itself...... As it bears no evil in itself, so it conceives none in thoughts to any other....." James Nayler, 1660 (prominent Quaker) From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Sep 10 19:28:05 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:28:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] quaker vs. exploder In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910173824.02244e30@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910181236.029284a0@mail.ilstu.edu> The little bowsprit of my penis is approaching New York City on the prow of my waist. I am in my car and have an erection again. I am driving my erection toward New York City along Hwy 84. Maybe I will plant it in the fertile pooty of Ground Zero. But maybe like in Zeno's paradox I will never reach New York City. Unlike Mohammad Atta. Yes maybe Zeno's Paradox will apply to me and not to Mohammed Atta. It bothers me that Mohammed Atta reached New York City despite the space between himself and the Tower halving and halving. What gives with that? Maybe we should call it Ground Zeno. Mohammed Atta was artillery his boobies were ordnance. I do not like people whose boobies are ordnance. "That simple expression is not out of place, for the Quaker way of life leads us to think of men and women all over the world as parts of the family of God." Mohammed Atta did not believe in the Quaker way of life, but in the Exploder way of life. The name Herman Melville sounds a great deal to me like the name Mohammad Atta and when I wrote that the boobies of Mohammad Atta were his ordnance I thought immediately of Melville's line descriptive of Ahab's hatred: "as if his chest had been a mortar (like a cannon thing), he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." Mohammad Ahab, Mohammad Atta. I am ashamed to even use Mohammed Atta's name because it seems -- and maybe I'm off here -- but it seems a disgrace to anyone named Mohammed, a name which is blessed with the richness of God. Mohammed is a name blessed with the richness of God. Atta. Atta-ck. It is an odd name Mohammed Atta. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Sep 10 19:35:37 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:35:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Story/Book/Male References: Message-ID: <3D7E81C8.81F84884@earthlink.net> Gwyn McVay wrote: > > > Paul Muldoon's "Yarrow" is a 90 page "exploded sestina" chronicling the > > This frightens me, as my AOL screen name for many years has been > "sestina." Psst. Meet me at the Villa Nell. - Sonnetson From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Sep 10 19:43:23 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:43:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Story/Book/Male References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910173824.02244e30@mail.ilstu.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020910180354.0292ada0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3D7E839A.12DB9A5C@earthlink.net> Then there's James Cervantes' _from Mr. Bondo's Unshared Life_, which is, of course, only in manuscript form, though it has been accompanied by $20 & $25 checks on journeys to screeners and mystery judges. - Jim, helping to define "hutzpah" From Thom424 at aol.com Tue Sep 10 19:46:53 2002 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:46:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #964 - 5 msgs Message-ID: <80.214fe8d2.2aafde6d@aol.com> Try Tom McGrath's LETTER TO AN IMAGINARY FRIEND...though it might not fit neatly into a traditional definition of "story-driven." Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Sep 10 19:46:59 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:46:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Story/Book/Male In-Reply-To: <3D7E839A.12DB9A5C@earthlink.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910173824.02244e30@mail.ilstu.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020910180354.0292ada0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910184457.0293b1f0@mail.ilstu.edu> Good for you, James! But you have reminded me of another pre-published booklength poetry male-narrated items: Did you know that Ed Dorn was working on a long poem chronicling his use of chemotherapy in the battle with pancreatic cancer that he lost a few years ago god bless Ed Dorn? It was called _Chemo Sabe_. Gabe At 04:43 PM 9/10/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Then there's James Cervantes' _from Mr. Bondo's Unshared Life_, which >is, of course, only in manuscript form, though it has been accompanied >by $20 & $25 checks on journeys to screeners and mystery judges. > >- Jim, helping to define "hutzpah" >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Sep 10 19:53:49 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:53:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Story/Book/Male References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910173824.02244e30@mail.ilstu.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020910180354.0292ada0@mail.ilstu.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020910184457.0293b1f0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3D7E860B.8B12DE1E@earthlink.net> Am I supposed to groan? - Jim Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > Good for you, James! > > But you have reminded me of another pre-published booklength poetry > male-narrated items: Did you know that Ed Dorn was working on a long poem > chronicling his use of chemotherapy in the battle with pancreatic cancer > that he lost a few years ago god bless Ed Dorn? It was called _Chemo Sabe_. > > Gabe > > At 04:43 PM 9/10/2002 -0700, you wrote: > >Then there's James Cervantes' _from Mr. Bondo's Unshared Life_, which > >is, of course, only in manuscript form, though it has been accompanied > >by $20 & $25 checks on journeys to screeners and mystery judges. > > > >- Jim, helping to define "hutzpah" > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Sep 10 19:55:25 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:55:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Story/Book/Male In-Reply-To: <3D7E860B.8B12DE1E@earthlink.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910173824.02244e30@mail.ilstu.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020910180354.0292ada0@mail.ilstu.edu> <5.1.0.14.0.20020910184457.0293b1f0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020910185455.02942d30@mail.ilstu.edu> No, it's true. That's what he called it. It's true. Look it up. It's mentioned in _Jacket_. g At 04:53 PM 9/10/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Am I supposed to groan? > >- Jim > >Gabriel Gudding wrote: > > > > Good for you, James! > > > > But you have reminded me of another pre-published booklength poetry > > male-narrated items: Did you know that Ed Dorn was working on a long poem > > chronicling his use of chemotherapy in the battle with pancreatic cancer > > that he lost a few years ago god bless Ed Dorn? It was called _Chemo Sabe_. > > > > Gabe > > > > At 04:43 PM 9/10/2002 -0700, you wrote: > > >Then there's James Cervantes' _from Mr. Bondo's Unshared Life_, which > > >is, of course, only in manuscript form, though it has been accompanied > > >by $20 & $25 checks on journeys to screeners and mystery judges. > > > > > >- Jim, helping to define "hutzpah" > > >_______________________________________________ > > >New-Poetry mailing list > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Sep 10 21:47:02 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:47:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky/Collins/Garrison Message-ID: <200209110146.g8B1k1e64597@mx7.mx.voyager.net> I happen to have these on a class handout I've prepared for tomorrow. Here's the Collins and Pinsky, plus Deborah Garrison for lagniappe. The Names Yesterday, I lay awake in the palm of the night. A fine rain stole in, unhelped by any breeze, And when I saw the silver glaze on the windows, I started with A, with Ackerman, as it happened, Then Baxter and Calabro, Davis and Eberling, names falling into place As droplets fell through the dark. Names printed on the ceiling of the night. Names slipping around a watery bend. Twenty-six willows on the banks of a stream. In the morning, I walked out barefoot Among thousands of flowers Heavy with dew like the eyes of tears, And each had a name ? Fiori inscribed on a yellow petal Then Gonzalez and Han, Ishikawa and Jenkins. Names written in the air And stitched into the cloth of the day. A name under a photograph taped to a mailbox. Monogram on a torn shirt, I see you spelled out on storefront windows And on the bright unfurled awnings of this city. I say the syllables as I turn a corner ? Kelly and Lee, Medina, Nardella, and O'Connor. When I peer into the woods, I see a thick tangle where letters are hidden As in a puzzle concocted for children. Parker and Quigley in the twigs of an ash, Rizzo, Schubert, Torres, and Upton, Secrets in the boughs of an ancient maple. Names written in the pale sky. Names rising in the updraft amid buildings. Names silent in stone Or cried out behind a door. Names blown over the earth and out to sea. In the evening ? weakening light, the last swallows. A boy on a lake lifts his oars. A woman by a window puts a match to a candle, And the names are outlined on the rose clouds ? Vanacore and Wallace, (let X stand, if it can, for the ones unfound) Then Young and Ziminsky, the final jolt of Z. Names etched on the head of a pin. One name spanning a bridge, another undergoing a tunnel. A blue name needled into the skin. Names of citizens, workers, mothers and fathers, The bright-eyed daughter, the quick son. Alphabet of names in green rows in a field. Names in the small tracks of birds. Names lifted from a hat Or balanced on the tip of the tongue. Names wheeled into the dim warehouse of memory. So many names, there is barely room on the walls of the heart. --Billy Collins Billy Collins, poet laureate of the United States, read this poem before Congress 9/6/02 at its joint session in New York City. -------------------------------------------------- 9/11 We adore images, we like the spectacle Of speed and size, the working of prodigious Systems. So on television we watched The terrible spectacle, repetitiously gazing Until we were sick not only of the sight Of our prodigious systems turned against us But of the very systems of our watching. The date became a word, an anniversary That we inscribed with meanings--who keep so few, More likely to name an airport for an actor Or athlete than "First of May" or "Fourth of July." In the movies we dream up, our captured heroes Tell the interrogator their commanding officer's name Is Colonel Donald Duck--he writes it down, code Of a lowbrow memory so assured it's nearly Aristocratic. Some say the doomed firefighters Before they hurried into the doomed towers wrote Their Social Security numbers on their forearms. Easy to imagine them kidding about it a little, As if they were filling out some workday form. Will Rogers was a Cherokee, a survivor Of expropriation. A roper, a card. For some, A hero. He had turned sixteen the year That Frederick Douglass died. Douglass was twelve When Emily Dickinson was born. Is even Donald Half-forgotten?--Who are the Americans, not A people by blood or religion? As it turned out, The donated blood not needed, except as meaning. And on the other side that morning the guy Who shaved off all his body hair and screamed The name of God with his boxcutter in his hand. O Americans--as Marianne Moore would say, Whence is our courage? Is what holds us together A gluttonous dreamy thriving? Whence our being? In the dark roots of our music, impudent and profound?-- Or in the Eighteenth Century clarities And mystic Masonic totems of the Founders: The Eye of the Pyramid watching over us, Hexagram of Stars protecting the Eagle's head From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Sep 10 23:25:03 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:25:03 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] poems by others References: Message-ID: <3D7EB78F.C0EC2933@earthlink.net> Can we see Dean Young's original? Beth Simon wrote: > Honeycomb > Dean Young > > One wakes up glad > that the errands of sleep > are over. > The day is your > to fritter away on consciousness, > goldfinches > hammering foil over foil, > the sunglasses missing a wing > drawn from the glove box > in sudden sun. > So what will your allotment > of joy and terror be? > a blood test? > The usual business at the rink? > All along the hollow body > drill holes > an inch and a half apart > and you?ve got yourself a flute. > Fire penetrates the brainpan > like syrup, sweet glue, > its blush turns out to be > pigment ground from bricks. > Such is the constitution of matter in these dimensions ? > it?s always something, > some gorilla in the parking lot > or the boys in research > cooking up a new spill. > But what fun to walk > the resilient walkways > over the roof of Dis, > just here and there > from the sewer lids? > nipples, > bursts of steam. > This is the place > where I was a student. > See, here are students now > memorizing the parts of the bee. > And here?s where I first > tried to speak > to my only love, > on this bridge > over a sheet of ice. > It was only later, > at Ye Olde Wash House, > that the process seemed > so unlikely and ordained > by the random plunking > of particle into particle > which in one case > levels mountains, > another produces light. > > _Skid_ U of Pittsburgh P 2002, 44-45 > > regards, > > beth lee > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Sep 11 08:21:50 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:21:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Fadhil Al-Azzawi, "A Movie in a Train Station" Message-ID: Al-Azzawi is an Iraqi poet who was once editor of *al-Manar*, the largest newspaper in Iraq. He now lives in Berlin. The poem is included in a section of New Arab Poetry in the current *Rattapallax*. The translation is by Khaled Mattawa. A Movie in a Train Station In a train station in winter, returning from a long journey I found myself in a movie theater for travelers. I watched a film with a plot unfamiliar to me. It started before I got here a movie that never ends. It does not matter when you start watching it; its scenes repeat the way life's events recur. Heroes don thieves' masks on their faces. Armies crawl on the snow to reach a city. And clowns walk in front of carts dragged by tired horses. Men wearing wings made of wax swim in space. Insects take to their strange paths towards planets under burning suns. Someone finds a pearl and loses it again. And we bleed on the curtains and on travelers' beds in a cheap one-night hotel. Dead spectators, living spectators. Someone enters, another leaves. The hall is always dark and our movie goes on without an end. --Fadhil Al-Azzawi Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From rloden at concentric.net Wed Sep 11 11:13:55 2002 From: rloden at concentric.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:13:55 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] another September 11 poem (sort of) Message-ID: <000101c259a5$d97a44e0$d2000140@Glasscastle> IN THE GRAVEYARD OF FALLEN MONUMENTS Moscow, near Gorky Park Sometimes I like to think about Leonid Brezhnev whose white marble torso stands here dreaming in the Graveyard of Fallen Monuments. Leonid, I say, it?s Dick. Where are your goddamn legs? Seems like yesterday you broke out the Stoli at your dacha, and we laughed about d?tente. Those were good times. The world on a razor of our mutually assured destruction, and yet? comrade! you remember?we felt strangely free. Today not a single statue of Dick Nixon stands astride an American city, but there are National Guardsmen at the glittering bridges and Citizen Corps tipsters behind each tree. Leonid, they miss me. And the impoverished gray pensioners in Gorky Park, endlessly pining for ?The Kuznetsk Metal Workers? Supper,? they carry a wild red blowtorch for their Leonchik too. So dosvidan?ya, you sweet old bastard? I?m late to catch an Elks convention shambling through my Library in Yorba Linda, California, laden with cheap ?Elvis Meets Nixon? keychains and a queer uneasiness they cannot place. --Rachel Loden From barry.spacks at verizon.net Wed Sep 11 13:03:08 2002 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:03:08 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #966 - 7 msgs In-Reply-To: <200209111601.g8BG13613921@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020911100001.009fb450@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:01 PM 9/11/02 -0400, David Graham wrote: >Here's the Collins and Pinsky, plus Deborah Garrison for lagniappe. thanks, David -- would love to hear what your students say about the three poems. Barry >The Names > >Yesterday, I lay awake in the palm of the night. >A fine rain stole in, unhelped by any breeze, >And when I saw the silver glaze on the windows, >I started with A, with Ackerman, as it happened, >Then Baxter and Calabro, >Davis and Eberling, names falling into place >As droplets fell through the dark. > >Names printed on the ceiling of the night. >Names slipping around a watery bend. >Twenty-six willows on the banks of a stream. > >In the morning, I walked out barefoot >Among thousands of flowers >Heavy with dew like the eyes of tears, >And each had a name ? >Fiori inscribed on a yellow petal >Then Gonzalez and Han, Ishikawa and Jenkins. > >Names written in the air >And stitched into the cloth of the day. >A name under a photograph taped to a mailbox. >Monogram on a torn shirt, >I see you spelled out on storefront windows >And on the bright unfurled awnings of this city. >I say the syllables as I turn a corner ? >Kelly and Lee, >Medina, Nardella, and O'Connor. > >When I peer into the woods, >I see a thick tangle where letters are hidden >As in a puzzle concocted for children. >Parker and Quigley in the twigs of an ash, >Rizzo, Schubert, Torres, and Upton, >Secrets in the boughs of an ancient maple. > >Names written in the pale sky. >Names rising in the updraft amid buildings. >Names silent in stone >Or cried out behind a door. >Names blown over the earth and out to sea. > >In the evening ? weakening light, the last swallows. >A boy on a lake lifts his oars. >A woman by a window puts a match to a candle, >And the names are outlined on the rose clouds ? >Vanacore and Wallace, >(let X stand, if it can, for the ones unfound) >Then Young and Ziminsky, the final jolt of Z. > >Names etched on the head of a pin. >One name spanning a bridge, another undergoing a tunnel. >A blue name needled into the skin. >Names of citizens, workers, mothers and fathers, >The bright-eyed daughter, the quick son. >Alphabet of names in green rows in a field. >Names in the small tracks of birds. >Names lifted from a hat >Or balanced on the tip of the tongue. >Names wheeled into the dim warehouse of memory. >So many names, there is barely room on the walls of the heart. > >--Billy Collins >Billy Collins, poet laureate of the United States, read this poem before >Congress 9/6/02 at its joint session in New York City. >-------------------------------------------------- > > > >9/11 > >We adore images, we like the spectacle >Of speed and size, the working of prodigious >Systems. So on television we watched > >The terrible spectacle, repetitiously gazing >Until we were sick not only of the sight >Of our prodigious systems turned against us > >But of the very systems of our watching. >The date became a word, an anniversary >That we inscribed with meanings--who keep so few, > >More likely to name an airport for an actor >Or athlete than "First of May" or "Fourth of July." >In the movies we dream up, our captured heroes > >Tell the interrogator their commanding officer's name >Is Colonel Donald Duck--he writes it down, code >Of a lowbrow memory so assured it's nearly > >Aristocratic. Some say the doomed firefighters >Before they hurried into the doomed towers wrote >Their Social Security numbers on their forearms. > >Easy to imagine them kidding about it a little, >As if they were filling out some workday form. >Will Rogers was a Cherokee, a survivor > >Of expropriation. A roper, a card. For some, >A hero. He had turned sixteen the year >That Frederick Douglass died. Douglass was twelve > >When Emily Dickinson was born. Is even Donald >Half-forgotten?--Who are the Americans, not >A people by blood or religion? As it turned out, > >The donated blood not needed, except as meaning. >And on the other side that morning the guy >Who shaved off all his body hair and screamed > >The name of God with his boxcutter in his hand. >O Americans--as Marianne Moore would say, >Whence is our courage? Is what holds us together > >A gluttonous dreamy thriving? Whence our being? >In the dark roots of our music, impudent and profound?-- >Or in the Eighteenth Century clarities > >And mystic Masonic totems of the Founders: >The Eye of the Pyramid watching over us, >Hexagram of Stars protecting the Eagle's head > > From terror of pox, from plague and radiation. >And if they blow up the Statue of Liberty-- >Then the survivors might likely in grief, terror > >And excess build a dozen more, or produce >A catchy song about it, its meaning as beyond >Meaning as those symbols, or Ray Charles singing "America > >The Beautiful." Alabaster cities, amber waves, >Purple majesty. The back-up singers in sequins >And high heels for a performance--or in the studio > >In sneakers and headphones, engineers at soundboards, >Musicians, all concentrating, faces as grave >With purpose as the harbor Statue herself. > >--Robert Pinsky >Written by the former poet laureate for The Washington Post. Appeared in >their Sunday Magazine 9/8/02; Page W26 >-------------------------------------------------- > > > >I Saw You Walking > >I saw you walking through Newark Penn Station >in your shoes of white ash. At the corner >of my nervous glance your dazed passage >first forced me away, tracing the crescent >berth you'd give a drunk, a lurcher, nuzzling >all corners with ill will and his stench, but >not this one, not today; one shirt arm's sheared >clean from the shoulder, the whole bare limb >wet with muscle and shining dimly pink, >the other full-sheathed in cotton, Brooks Bros. >type, the cuff yet buttoned at the wrist, a >parody of careful dress, preparedness -- >so you had not rolled up your sleeves yet this >morning when your suit jacket (here are >the pants, dark gray, with subtle stripe, as worn >by men like you on ordinary days) >and briefcase (you've none, reverse commuter >come from the pit with nothing to carry >but your life) were torn from you, as your life >was not. Your face itself seemed to be walking, >leading your body north, though the age >of the face, blank and ashen, passing forth >and away from me, was unclear, the sandy >crown of hair powdered white like your feet, but >underneath not yet gray -- forty-seven? >forty-eight? The age of someone's father -- >and I trembled for your luck, for your broad, >dusted back, half shirted, walking away; >I should have dropped to my knees to thank God >you were alive, o my God, in whom I don't believe. > >--Deborah Garrison. The New Yorker, 22 October 2001. Reprinted in 110 >Stories: New York Writes After September 11, edited by Ulrich Baer. New York >University Press. 2002. >-------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chryss at silcom.com Wed Sep 11 13:19:45 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:19:45 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #966 - 7 msgs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020911100001.009fb450@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: Remember Billy?s big declaration about NEVER writing a poem about it? It being ?too big? for poetry, and all? - - - From tedmacker at yahoo.com Wed Sep 11 14:10:24 2002 From: tedmacker at yahoo.com (Edward Macker) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 11:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #966 - 7 msgs In-Reply-To: <200209111601.g8BG14613926@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20020911181024.66736.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for the recs for the book-length poems. Heading to the library, --Teddy Macker. __________________________________________________ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Sep 11 13:16:12 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:16:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] great 9/11 article in salon In-Reply-To: <000101c259a5$d97a44e0$d2000140@Glasscastle> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020911120539.02d4a910@mail.ilstu.edu> apologies for x-posting If you are tired of the trafficking in poignancy regarding 9.11 and haven't seen this salon.com article yet, check it. http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2002/09/11/forbidden_letters/index.html ("Forbidden thoughts about 9/11: The readers respond") I suppose in some ways I resent the emotionally and metaphorically unimaginative poems of Collins and Pinsky. Solemnity and poignancy are merely ways of packaging resentment and self-pity in a socially acceptable way. Resentment and self-pity are just muted anger and precursors to revenge. These solemnities and these poems strike me as utter lies. Here's a cut from the salon article, "I love to watch the footage, over and over. I'm looking forward to the anniversary just because the videos will be played again. People claim they don't like to see the images, but I don't believe it for a second. I was sorry I missed footage of people jumping, because you just don't see that too often and that is rarely replayed. -- Graphic artist, 41, Chicago" Gabe From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Sep 11 21:13:17 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:13:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins/Pinsky/Garrison on 9/11 Message-ID: <200209120112.g8C1CGo31886@mx6.mx.voyager.net> thanks, David -- would love to hear what your students say about the three poems. Barry ------ In my class (an intro undergraduate poetry workshop) Pinsky was the big loser in terms of student preference. The assignment was simply to say something about which poem they found most or least effective or moving, and why. One out of twenty students preferred Pinsky. Some disliked it more than others. Some found Pinsky's historical allusions daunting (not surprising) and his tone at times hard to read (understandable, I think). Some resented his focus on the theme of our commercialization of tragedy, finding it inappropriate to the occasion. Others liked many parts of the poem, but were baffled as to how Will Rogers and Emily Dickinson were relevant (not sure what I think of this myself). Most loved the Collins for its simplicity and dignity in focusing on naming the dead--several drawing parallels with Maya Lin's Vietnam memorial, and with today's reading of WTC names at "ground zero." A number spoke of being moved to reflection on the sheer numbers of the dead, as well as their ethnic and other variety. Many said that they felt Collins had managed to make them cut through the numbness of media over-exposure, and think about the individuality of the victims. Runner-up was Deborah Garrison, I'd say. Students liked the poem for its traditional lyrical approach, for its small scale--which among other things they felt indicated humility before the enormity of events. I know well that one person's "poignancy" is another person's "bathos," and such debates will always circle on. But I was happy to see that, on the one hand, no one assumed that a poem was good merely because of its good intentions, while on the other hand, no one assumed that all emotional expression is bathetic. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Arielpf123 at aol.com Wed Sep 11 21:43:17 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:43:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins/Pinsky/Garrison on 9/11 Message-ID: <1a8.843acbb.2ab14b35@aol.com> In a message dated 9/11/02 9:14:38 PM, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: << I know well that one person's "poignancy" is another person's "bathos," and such debates will always circle on. But I was happy to see that, on the one hand, no one assumed that a poem was good merely because of its good intentions, while on the other hand, no one assumed that all emotional expression is bathetic. >> thanks for the report David. You've made me curious...so I also plan to present the three poems to my class of adults when they meet Friday. These are people who've been coming to the class for 3-4 years; I wonder if that will make a difference. I'd be willing to bet not...will let you know. Patf From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Wed Sep 11 23:30:32 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:30:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky/Collins/Garrison In-Reply-To: <200209110146.g8B1k1e64597@mx7.mx.voyager.net> References: <200209110146.g8B1k1e64597@mx7.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: I'd just like to say that I found Martin Espada's 911 poem in this week's *Nation* to be one of the most superb I've read, particularly the ending. Has anyone else seen it? ellen s. -- From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Sep 11 23:18:10 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:18:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins/Pinsky/Garrison on 9/11 Message-ID: <189.dcf7bd3.2ab16172@cs.com> I read only the Collins. As serendipity would have it, it was on the same day that I'd prepared to discuss "Easter, 1916." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Sep 12 10:12:56 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:12:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] another September 11 poem (sort of) In-Reply-To: <000101c259a5$d97a44e0$d2000140@Glasscastle> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020912091209.00a46260@mail.ilstu.edu> This is a really briliant poem, Rachel. At 08:13 AM 9/11/2002 -0700, you wrote: > IN THE GRAVEYARD OF FALLEN MONUMENTS > > Moscow, near Gorky Park > > > Sometimes I like to think about Leonid Brezhnev > whose white marble torso stands here dreaming > > in the Graveyard of Fallen Monuments. Leonid, > I say, it?s Dick. Where are your goddamn legs? > > Seems like yesterday you broke out the Stoli > at your dacha, and we laughed about d?tente. > > Those were good times. The world on a razor > of our mutually assured destruction, and yet? > > comrade! you remember?we felt strangely free. > Today not a single statue of Dick Nixon > > stands astride an American city, but there are > National Guardsmen at the glittering bridges > > and Citizen Corps tipsters behind each tree. > Leonid, they miss me. And the impoverished gray > > pensioners in Gorky Park, endlessly pining > for ?The Kuznetsk Metal Workers? Supper,? > > they carry a wild red blowtorch for their Leonchik > too. So dosvidan?ya, you sweet old bastard? > > I?m late to catch an Elks convention shambling > through my Library in Yorba Linda, California, > > laden with cheap ?Elvis Meets Nixon? keychains > and a queer uneasiness they cannot place. > > > --Rachel Loden > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Sep 12 11:42:07 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:42:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] another September 11 poem (sort of) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020912091209.00a46260@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: on 9/12/02 9:12 AM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote: > This is a really briliant poem, Rachel. > > At 08:13 AM 9/11/2002 -0700, you wrote: > > >> IN THE GRAVEYARD OF FALLEN MONUMENTS >> >> Moscow, near Gorky Park >> >> >> Sometimes I like to think about Leonid Brezhnev >> whose white marble torso stands here dreaming >> >> in the Graveyard of Fallen Monuments. Leonid, >> I say, it?s Dick. Where are your goddamn legs? >> >> Seems like yesterday you broke out the Stoli >> at your dacha, and we laughed about d?tente. >> >> Those were good times. The world on a razor >> of our mutually assured destruction, and yet? >> >> comrade! you remember?we felt strangely free. >> Today not a single statue of Dick Nixon >> >> stands astride an American city, but there are >> National Guardsmen at the glittering bridges >> >> and Citizen Corps tipsters behind each tree. >> Leonid, they miss me. And the impoverished gray >> >> pensioners in Gorky Park, endlessly pining >> for ?The Kuznetsk Metal Workers? Supper,? >> >> they carry a wild red blowtorch for their Leonchik >> too. So dosvidan?ya, you sweet old bastard? >> >> I?m late to catch an Elks convention shambling >> through my Library in Yorba Linda, California, >> >> laden with cheap ?Elvis Meets Nixon? keychains >> and a queer uneasiness they cannot place. >> >> >> --Rachel Loden >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > I liked this, too, Rachel. Paul Lake From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Sep 12 15:58:13 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:58:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] another September 11 poem (sort of) Message-ID: <14a.13e90f6a.2ab24bd5@cs.com> Rachel rocks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rloden at concentric.net Thu Sep 12 20:12:27 2002 From: rloden at concentric.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:12:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] another September 11 poem (sort of) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c25aba$3f36ad40$b6020140@Glasscastle> Hey, thanks Gabe, Paul and Sam--what an interesting troika, you three! Maybe I should have called it a post-9-11 poem? Molte grazie, Rachel > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Lake > Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 8:42 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] another September 11 poem (sort of) > > > on 9/12/02 9:12 AM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote: > > > This is a really briliant poem, Rachel. > > > > At 08:13 AM 9/11/2002 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > >> IN THE GRAVEYARD OF FALLEN MONUMENTS > >> > >> Moscow, near Gorky Park > >> > >> > >> Sometimes I like to think about Leonid Brezhnev > >> whose white marble torso stands here dreaming > >> > >> in the Graveyard of Fallen Monuments. Leonid, > >> I say, it?s Dick. Where are your goddamn legs? > >> > >> Seems like yesterday you broke out the Stoli > >> at your dacha, and we laughed about d?tente. > >> > >> Those were good times. The world on a razor > >> of our mutually assured destruction, and yet? > >> > >> comrade! you remember?we felt strangely free. > >> Today not a single statue of Dick Nixon > >> > >> stands astride an American city, but there are > >> National Guardsmen at the glittering bridges > >> > >> and Citizen Corps tipsters behind each tree. > >> Leonid, they miss me. And the impoverished gray > >> > >> pensioners in Gorky Park, endlessly pining > >> for ?The Kuznetsk Metal Workers? Supper,? > >> > >> they carry a wild red blowtorch for their Leonchik > >> too. So dosvidan?ya, you sweet old bastard? > >> > >> I?m late to catch an Elks convention shambling > >> through my Library in Yorba Linda, California, > >> > >> laden with cheap ?Elvis Meets Nixon? keychains > >> and a queer uneasiness they cannot place. > >> > >> > >> --Rachel Loden > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > I liked this, too, Rachel. > > Paul Lake > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Sep 12 21:06:24 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:06:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Story/Book/Male References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EC2@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <007a01c25ac1$c9fbb720$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Well...Situations meets the criteria. SITUATIONS pub date october 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham, David" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 5:43 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Story/Book/Male > > Could anyone recommend a story-driven book-length > > contemporary poem that has a male narrator? > > > > Thanks, > > --Teddy Macker > > > Fred Chappell. *Midquest*. LSU Press. > > Brendan Galvin. *Wampanoag Traveler: Being, in Letters, the Life and Times > of Loranzo Newcomb, American and Natural Historian: A Poem*. LSU Press. > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ======================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Sep 12 21:24:18 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:24:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] another September 11 poem (sort of) References: <000101c259a5$d97a44e0$d2000140@Glasscastle> Message-ID: <010c01c25ac4$4ac4da60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> No one writes poetry that engages the world like Rachel Loden. This is wonderful. SITUATIONS pub date August 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rachel Loden" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:13 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] another September 11 poem (sort of) IN THE GRAVEYARD OF FALLEN MONUMENTS Moscow, near Gorky Park Sometimes I like to think about Leonid Brezhnev whose white marble torso stands here dreaming in the Graveyard of Fallen Monuments. Leonid, I say, it's Dick. Where are your goddamn legs? Seems like yesterday you broke out the Stoli at your dacha, and we laughed about d?tente. Those were good times. The world on a razor of our mutually assured destruction, and yet- comrade! you remember-we felt strangely free. Today not a single statue of Dick Nixon stands astride an American city, but there are National Guardsmen at the glittering bridges and Citizen Corps tipsters behind each tree. Leonid, they miss me. And the impoverished gray pensioners in Gorky Park, endlessly pining for "The Kuznetsk Metal Workers' Supper," they carry a wild red blowtorch for their Leonchik too. So dosvidan'ya, you sweet old bastard- I'm late to catch an Elks convention shambling through my Library in Yorba Linda, California, laden with cheap "Elvis Meets Nixon" keychains and a queer uneasiness they cannot place. --Rachel Loden _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From rloden at concentric.net Thu Sep 12 22:10:31 2002 From: rloden at concentric.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:10:31 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] question re: another September 11 poem (sort of) In-Reply-To: <010c01c25ac4$4ac4da60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000001c25aca$c0d67910$b6020140@Glasscastle> Thanks so much, Tad. A question for the list-- For years I've scrupulously avoided posting unpublished poems on e-lists, but this one seemed to want to be out there, part of the rich mix. Can I assume that this is a conversation among friends--I typed "fiends"--and thus something like reading a poem at a party, say, rather than "publication"? Or did I just mess up? For those of you who are (or have been) editors, would you avoid publishing a poem that had appeared on a poetry discussion list? Rachel From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Sep 12 22:33:50 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:33:50 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] question re: another September 11 poem (sort of) References: <000001c25aca$c0d67910$b6020140@Glasscastle> Message-ID: <3D814E8E.2042F6C5@earthlink.net> Rachel Loden wrote: > > Thanks so much, Tad. A question for the list-- > > For years I've scrupulously avoided posting unpublished poems on > e-lists, but this one seemed to want to be out there, part of the rich > mix. Can I assume that this is a conversation among friends--I typed > "fiends"--and thus something like reading a poem at a party, say, rather > than "publication"? Or did I just mess up? > > For those of you who are (or have been) editors, would you avoid > publishing a poem that had appeared on a poetry discussion list? > Not at all. Sometimes, I even solicit work I've run across on lists. Besides, you're posting a poem, not "publishing" it. A further besides: chances are extremely slim that the readers on the discussion list(s) are the very same readers of the magazines in which the poems might subsequently appear. Some lists, I suppose, might have career hungry, po-biz lurkers looking for something to feed their impoverished imaginations, but so what. Chances are such people will never do a good job with what they steal. Then there's the ego element. But the healthy ego will share and not hoard, whereas the bloated but insecure ego might think it has something infinitely precious. Then there are the Emilys . . . etc. etc. - Jim From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 13 09:45:24 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 06:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Story/Book/Male In-Reply-To: <007a01c25ac1$c9fbb720$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20020913134524.23994.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> As does Glyn Maxwell's Time's Fool. It's novel-length. If anyone has read this book, I'd appreciate your thoughts. Thanks, Jeff Newberry theoldmole wrote:Well...Situations meets the criteria. SITUATIONS pub date october 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham, David" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 5:43 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Story/Book/Male > > Could anyone recommend a story-driven book-length > > contemporary poem that has a male narrator? > > > > Thanks, > > --Teddy Macker > > > Fred Chappell. *Midquest*. LSU Press. > > Brendan Galvin. *Wampanoag Traveler: Being, in Letters, the Life and Times > of Loranzo Newcomb, American and Natural Historian: A Poem*. LSU Press. > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ======================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Fri Sep 13 19:52:08 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 07:52:08 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [New-Poetry]Zan re another September 11 poem (sort of) References: <000101c259a5$d97a44e0$d2000140@Glasscastle> Message-ID: <005401c25b80$9457aab0$69864cca@JROSS2> That was sharp, spare and entirely captivating. Thanks for posting this treat of words. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rachel Loden" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:13 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] another September 11 poem (sort of) IN THE GRAVEYARD OF FALLEN MONUMENTS Moscow, near Gorky Park Sometimes I like to think about Leonid Brezhnev whose white marble torso stands here dreaming in the Graveyard of Fallen Monuments. Leonid, I say, it's Dick. Where are your goddamn legs? Seems like yesterday you broke out the Stoli at your dacha, and we laughed about d?tente. Those were good times. The world on a razor of our mutually assured destruction, and yet- comrade! you remember-we felt strangely free. Today not a single statue of Dick Nixon stands astride an American city, but there are National Guardsmen at the glittering bridges and Citizen Corps tipsters behind each tree. Leonid, they miss me. And the impoverished gray pensioners in Gorky Park, endlessly pining for "The Kuznetsk Metal Workers' Supper," they carry a wild red blowtorch for their Leonchik too. So dosvidan'ya, you sweet old bastard- I'm late to catch an Elks convention shambling through my Library in Yorba Linda, California, laden with cheap "Elvis Meets Nixon" keychains and a queer uneasiness they cannot place. --Rachel Loden _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmcvay at patriot.net Fri Sep 13 20:20:32 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [New-Poetry]Zan re another September 11 poem (sort of) In-Reply-To: <005401c25b80$9457aab0$69864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Sep 2002, ganesha wrote: > That was sharp, spare and entirely captivating. Thanks for posting this > treat of words. > > Zan > [plug] Go read her book, _Hotel Imperium_, U of GA Press. Too cool it is. [/plug] Gwyn From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Fri Sep 13 20:28:39 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 08:28:39 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] question re: another September 11 poem (sort of) References: <000001c25aca$c0d67910$b6020140@Glasscastle> Message-ID: <024701c25b85$ae0ab330$69864cca@JROSS2> As a poetry editor here in Australia, I wouldn't avoid publishing a piece if it were of the quality of yours. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rachel Loden" To: Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 10:10 AM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] question re: another September 11 poem (sort of) > Thanks so much, Tad. A question for the list-- > > For years I've scrupulously avoided posting unpublished poems on > e-lists, but this one seemed to want to be out there, part of the rich > mix. Can I assume that this is a conversation among friends--I typed > "fiends"--and thus something like reading a poem at a party, say, rather > than "publication"? Or did I just mess up? > > For those of you who are (or have been) editors, would you avoid > publishing a poem that had appeared on a poetry discussion list? > > Rachel > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Cadaly at aol.com Sat Sep 14 01:03:03 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 01:03:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] UCLA Extension Writers Faire Message-ID: <12c.17802684.2ab41d07@aol.com> Tomorrow in Los Angeles, on the UCLA campus Young Hall Patio, UCLA Extension will hold its mini-writing conference from 10 am to 2 pm. Usually there are bagels and muffins, but this year I'm not so sure. I will be talking about the end of the Poetry Wars on a panel I proposed. I am also going to talk about online poetry workshops. Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Cadaly at aol.com Sat Sep 14 01:03:44 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 01:03:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Series in Los Angeles Message-ID: <80.217ace20.2ab41d30@aol.com> The first reading in my new Writers & Teachers series at Barnes & Noble Westwood (in the Westside Pavilion at the corner of Westwood & Pico) is Tuesday, September 17 at 7:30 pm. It'll be the first time I meet these online creative writing students, and the first time I read my creative nonfiction. The series, which will highlight local writers and their teaching methodologies, will eventually tour Barnes & Nobles. The Barnes & Noble Westwood readings are not like some other chain store readings: B&N orders teacher books, student readers are paid, and there are *snacks*. Warm regards, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 14 11:38:52 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 11:38:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Legacy of Black Mountain College Message-ID: <4d.2408a309.2ab4b20c@aol.com> Subj: Asheville Festival/Reading reminder Date: 9/13/02 11:33:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: patrick at proximate.org (Patrick Herron) Reply-to: patrick at proximate.org To: patrick at proximate.org READING/FESTIVAL REMINDER Under the Influence: Celebrating the Legacy of Black Mountain College http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/ READINGS more details: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/poetry.html 1. Saturday 21 September, 6-8PM, Malaprop's, Asheville, NC, free Not Your Average Poetry Reading #1: Lee Ann Brown (with Beth Brown Al-Rawi), Patrick Herron and John Landry 2. Sunday 22 September 1-3PM, Black Mountain Center for the Arts Gallery, Black Mountain, NC, $35 Benefit Champagne Brunch for BMCMAC: Michael Boughn, Lee Ann Brown, Beth Brown Al-Rawi, Patrick Herron, Lisa Jarnot, and John Landry Reservations are required. RSVP to Jane Anne Tager at 828-658-3576 (no later than Saturday, 9/21). 3. Sunday 22 September 3:15-5PM, Camp Rockmont Dining Hall, Black Mountain, NC, free with brunch/$10 Not Your Average Poetry Reading #2: Michael Boughn and Lisa Jarnot THE FESTIVAL Under the Influence: Celebrating the Legacy of Black Mountain College A collaborative festival on the 50th anniversary of John Cage's multi-media "Theatre Piece No. 1". Wednesday 18 September - Sunday 22 September Schedule: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/schedule.html The Festival in the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/08/travel/WDASHE.html The Under the Influence Festival from 18-22 September will celebrate the artistic legacy of the Black Mountain College, which closed its doors in 1956. The weekend of the festival marks the 50th anniversary of the first multimedia "happening", called Theatre Piece No. 1, which was arranged by composer John Cage and performed at Black Mountain College. Festival programming will consist of performances, installations, workshops, poetry readings, film screenings, and roundtables showcasing contemporary artists, performers, and theorists whose ideas and work bear the distinctive influence of Black Mountain College. Festival participants and contributors include musicians Pauline Oliveros, Tony Conrad, Mark Hosler, and John Cobb, poets Patrick Herron, Michael Boughn and Lee Ann Brown, installation artists Yoko Ono and Jack Dangers, educators Sue Riley and Greg Ulmer, filmmaker Craig Baldwin, dancer Ray Eliot Schwartz and many others. The festival will occur September 18-22, 2002 at various venues in Asheville, Black Mountain and Cullowhee, NC with related events throughout the month. For detailed and up to the minute information, see the festival website at http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/. About Black Mountain College "For a short time in the middle of the twentieth century a small town in North Carolina became a hub of American cultural production. The town was Black Mountain and the reason was Black Mountain College. Founded in 1933, the school was a reaction to the more traditional schools of the time. At its core was the assumption that a strong liberal and fine arts education must happen simultaneously inside and outside the classroom. Combining communal living with an informal class structure, Black Mountain created an environment conducive to the interdisciplinary work that was to revolutionize the arts and sciences of its time." -- from PBS's "American Masters" Black Mountain College numbers among its former students and teachers such luminaries as Charles Olson, Josef and Anni Albers, Walter Gropius, Jacob Lawrence, Buckminster Fuller, Willem de Kooning, Robert Motherwell, John Cage, Robert Creeley, Alfred Kazin, Merce Cunningham, Paul Goodman, Cy Twombly, Jonathan Williams, Robert Rauschenberg, John Wieners and Lou Harrison. The college was started in the 1930s by Jack Rice and Theodore Dreier in association with refugees from the Bauhaus School after the Bauhaus dissolved under pressure from by the Nazis that same year. More Information More about the Under the Influence festival: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/about.html The press release: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/festival/release.html More about Black Mountain College: http://www.blackmountaincollege.org/index.html From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 14 12:01:58 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:01:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] rattapallax 8 launch reading Message-ID: <163.13da4f16.2ab4b776@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 06:43:26 -0700 From: Ram Devineni Subject: rattapallax 8 launch reading Hello Everyone: I just wanted to announce the launch of Rattapallax 8 which features: Audio recordings by Sharon Olds, Sonia Sanchez, Breyten Breytenbach, Shashi Tharoor, Molly Peacock, Willie Perdomo & Bob Holman. We also have a special section on ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE POETRY which features poems by Edwin Torres, Anne Tardos, Juliana Spahr read by Raymond Kurzweil=92s Ramona program. In addition, NEW PERSIAN POETRY featuring Shadab Vadji, Manucher Atashi, M. A. Sepanlu, Mohammad-Reza Shafii-Kadkani, Ali Zarrin, Ahmad Shamlu, Omran Salahi, Katayoun Zandvakili, Mimi Khalvati, Parinaz Eleish, Mohammad Mokhtari, Esmail Khoi & Abbas Kiarostami. Also, popular Persian song lyrcis. Edited and songs performed by Haale. And poems by Rick Moody, Marilyn Hacker, Eamon Grennan, William Pitt Root, Deborah Warren, Jeanne Marie Beaumont, Jeet Thayil, Karen Swenson, Elaine Sexton, Kate Light & many others. Please join us for our launch reading on September 14, 2002 at 2 pm--Rattapallax 8 Launch Reading Mid-Manhattan Library, 455 Fifth Ave. at 40th St., NYC Additional info at http://www.rattapallax.com Thanks, Ram From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Sep 14 12:05:20 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 11:05:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 9/11 poems on radio Message-ID: <200209141604.g8EG4I012020@mx14.mx.voyager.net> Radio station WHYY has a RealAudio stream of a show in which Alicia Ostriker, Stephen Dunn, and Gerald Stern talk about poetry, mourning, & 9/11, reading from their own poems and others, with some cameo clips of other poets reading. http://www.whyy.org/91FM/RadioTimesSearch.html Put "Ostriker" in the search box above, and you should get to the right page. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 14 16:06:34 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:06:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poems by others: Charles Simic Message-ID: MANY ZEROES The teacher rises voiceless before a class Of pale, tight-lipped children. The blackboard behind him as black as the sky Light-years from the earth. It's the silence the teacher loves, The taste of the infinite in it. The stars like teeth marks on children's pencils. Listen to it, he says happily. Charles Simic --------------------------------- copyright (c) 1992 Charles Simic. From "Verse and Universe: Poems About Science and Mathematics," edited by Kurt Brown and published by Milkweed Editions (http://www.milkweed.org) --------------------------------- From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 14 16:32:03 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:32:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] VeRT is building its way to #7 Message-ID: <177.e8c809a.2ab4f6c3@aol.com> Date sent: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 14:01:40 -0700 Subject: VeRT is building its way to #7 From: Andrew Felsinger ***************************************** Shout - OuT VeRT # 7 is slowly becoming a virtual reality on the world's wonderful web {http://www.litvert.com} go there and see the site as it materializes IN FRONT OF YOUR VERY OWN EYES! so far, let's see, there's: Stephanie Young, Spencer Selby, Gary Sullivan, Cynthia Sailers, Jeff Harrison, Brooks Johnson, uploaded and ready to read, and, oh: Kent Johnson puts his Pompoms up: http://www.litvert.com/pompom.html & Dale Smith Reviews Jenny Boully's _The Body_ http://www.litvert.com/dalereview.html There is still much work to go upload, and a few of you to respond to... all in due time, of course. For a semi-complete listing of who's who in the next issue, see below! Imitation, Homage, & The Bad: Stephanie Young, Spencer Selby,, Aaron Belz, Helen Ruggieri, Rodrigo Toscano, David Hess, Kenneth Tanemura, James Chapson, Ben Lerner, Mark DuCharme, Rachel Loden, Geofrey Gatza, Jeff Harrison Andrew Felsinger, Mark McManus, K. Silem Mohammad, Claire Barbetti, David Hadbawnik, Rodney Koeneke, Chris Glomski, Brooks Johnson, Kevin Gallagher, Andrew Goldfarb, Rod Riesco, Dodie Bellamy as Edward C. Edwards, David Braden, Christopher Martin, Ryan and Jacob, Ethan Paquin, Dale Smith, Noah Gordon, Barbara Joan Tiger Bass, (others to be added) Kent Johnson: Prosthesis of Pompom into VeRT A Nation of Poets: Writings from the Poetry Workshops of Sandinista Nicaragua, and Interview w/ Ernesto Cardenal by Kent Johnson Excerpts from _Cries in the New Wilderness: from the Files of the Moscow Institute of Atheism_ by Mikhail Epstein Jono Schneider: On Literary Silence Dale Smith Reviews Jenny Boully's _The Body_ David Hadbawnik Reviews Dale Smith's _The Flood & The Garden_ September 2002 From barry.spacks at verizon.net Fri Sep 13 12:29:50 2002 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:29:50 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Rachel's question Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020913091546.009ea5e0@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:01 PM 9/13/02 -0400, Rachel Loden wrote: >did I just mess up? Rachel, just thought to say, as another 'fiend' who much admires that monument poem of yours, that my feeling for the list is exactly yours: to show work as part of the conversation, maybe offer a piece that jibes with a current discussion, but not give out a random display...and surely not to worry about redundancy if the poem is good enough (as yours surely is) to be sent out for broader publication. BTW, I really like that phrase someone used in praising you as one who writes, par excellence, "poetry that engages the world." Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Sep 14 17:51:52 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:51:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New York City Event References: <4d.2408a309.2ab4b20c@aol.com> Message-ID: <012a01c25c38$f040d5a0$a7c2fea9@j1c1k6> I'm fairly sure I've mentioned this before, but here it is again--for the benefit of anyone in New City who may be interested: there will be a reception at The Center for Book Arts (28 West 27th Street, 3rd Floor) from 6 to 8 pm to kick off an exhibit of works by visual poets involved with the anthology Crag Hill and I edited, Writing To Be Seen, that will last until 15 November (when there will be some kind of closing performance at 7 pm). The visual poets expected at the event besides me are Kathy ernst, Scott Helmes, Joel Lipman, Bill Keith and Marilyn Rosenberg. It'd be fun to meet some of you New Yorkers I've been on threads with, whether we agreed or disagreed. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Sep 14 18:17:15 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:17:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The DATE of the event in NYC References: <4d.2408a309.2ab4b20c@aol.com> Message-ID: <019101c25c3c$7bc9a180$a7c2fea9@j1c1k6> In my haste, I lopped off the day that the reception I announced a little while ago will be held: it's 20 September, this coming Friday. --Bob G. From Cadaly at aol.com Sat Sep 14 18:59:59 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:59:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Rachel's question Message-ID: seconding the question -- also asking about online stuff in manuscripts; I've been self-imposing a 33% figure, but have a great many long poems I really would like to see in print together also, after engineering document management and scholarly editing, any online document, no matter how poorly-designed or static i.e. how identical to that document in print, is formally merely a "version"; many early hypertext writers used this idea as a rule of thumb something that, as a former document manager myself, I have always viewed as extraordinarily pedantic I would think only a wholly electronically realized, differently realized form would be a different version (i.e. Stephanie Strickland's middle section linked by Rachel in a post, but a minority of online poetry). I would say I really only have one longer poem which would be importantly different online, and it is only different for that subset of users who have a particularly new computer and browser Thanks, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 15 14:41:37 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 13:41:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacobik Plug Message-ID: <200209151840.g8FIeYf89915@mx10.mx.voyager.net> I see from Poetry Daily that Gray Jacobik's new book, *Brave Disguises*, is now available in the Pitt Poetry Series. Don't know about you, but I'm about to order a copy. Read blurbs and an excerpt at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0822957884/review s/104-0986774-2439106#08229578843201 ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From Arielpf123 at aol.com Sun Sep 15 15:05:34 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:05:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacobik Plug Message-ID: <45.1d4f2c65.2ab633fe@aol.com> In a message dated 9/15/02 2:42:13 PM, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: << I see from Poetry Daily that Gray Jacobik's new book, *Brave Disguises*, is now available in the Pitt Poetry Series. Don't know about you, but I'm about to order a copy. >> Thanks David. I've been waiting for this one!!! Just ordered it. patf From simon at ipfw.edu Sun Sep 15 16:27:08 2002 From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:27:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacobik Plug Message-ID: I've just ordered a couple of things from Spring Church (it's a town not a religion) Book Company (1-800-4961262), but I'll try to catch Brett because I definitely want a copy of this beth From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 15 19:17:53 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:17:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry of the sacred contest Message-ID: <105.1bdca585.2ab66f21@aol.com> Who are our poets of the sacremental?... Thomas Merton Poetry of the Sacred Contest 2003 "Thomas Merton is distinguished among most contemporary spiritual writers by the depth and substance of his thinking. Merton was a scholar who distilled the best thinking of the best theologians, philosophers and poets throughout the centuries, from both the West and the East, and presented their thinking in the context of the Christian world view. " Stanley Kunitz, the immediate past Poet Laureate of the United States will judge the 2003 Thomas Merton Prize for Poetry of the Sacred. He is the author and editor of many books of poetry. Among the honors bestowed on him are the National Book Award, the Lenore Marshall Poetry Prize, and the Pulitzer Prize. "Only ONE unpublished poem written in English may be submitted. Please limit the poem to no more than 100 lines. "Poems will be judged on literary excellence, spiritual tenor, and human authenticity. View winning poetry from past years on the website." PRIZE: $500, $50 and publication ENTRY FEE: None DEADLINE: November 30, 2002 URL: http://www.mertonfoundation.org/ From Cadaly at aol.com Sun Sep 15 21:13:06 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:13:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry of the sacred contest Message-ID: I just heard Kent Johnson read his epigrams -- the opposite of sacred, although, as far as sacraments go, he seems to have baptised Eliot Weinberger. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Sep 16 01:02:46 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 01:02:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacobik Plug References: <200209151840.g8FIeYf89915@mx10.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <00c201c25d3e$4c3fcb80$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> My copy's ordered. SITUATIONS pub date August 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 2:41 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacobik Plug > I see from Poetry Daily that Gray Jacobik's new book, *Brave Disguises*, is > now available in the Pitt Poetry Series. Don't know about you, but I'm > about to order a copy. Read blurbs and an excerpt at Amazon: > > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0822957884/review > s/104-0986774-2439106#08229578843201 > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ======================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From adead_poet at hotmail.com Mon Sep 16 10:32:46 2002 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:32:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #964 - 5 msgs Message-ID: Andrew Hudgins has a book, 'After the Lost War', that is a series of shorter poems that make up a longer narrative. And Dave Mason has a great narrative poem, "The Country I Remember" told in alternate narrater's, one male, one female. It's a little over 50 pages long, so the rest of the volume contains shorter work by him, but "The Country I Remember" is a great poem. jason > > >Could anyone recommend a story-driven book-length >contemporary poem that has a male narrator? > >Thanks, >--Teddy Macker > > >__________________________________________________ >Yahoo! - We Remember >9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost >http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 16 13:04:56 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020916170456.89424.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Speaking of narrative poetry, I was thinking about Robinson Jeffers' Cawdor and the mythologies of Willliam Blake. Jeffers' characters and Blake's elaborate personal mythology almost lend themselves to others. What I mean to say is this: is anybody aware of any other poet/novelists who have used characters or ideas from Jeffers or Blake? I realize that Mark Jarman's book Iris deals with Jeffers as an idea; however, I was wondering if anyone has written, say, about Jeffers' characters, maybe in their voices--or any of Blake's characters like Albion, Orc, or Urizen. Thanks, Jeff Newberry jason huff wrote:Andrew Hudgins has a book, 'After the Lost War', that is a series of shorter poems that make up a longer narrative. And Dave Mason has a great narrative poem, "The Country I Remember" told in alternate narrater's, one male, one female. It's a little over 50 pages long, so the rest of the volume contains shorter work by him, but "The Country I Remember" is a great poem. jason > > >Could anyone recommend a story-driven book-length >contemporary poem that has a male narrator? > >Thanks, >--Teddy Macker > > >__________________________________________________ >Yahoo! - We Remember >9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost >http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tedmacker at yahoo.com Mon Sep 16 15:41:36 2002 From: tedmacker at yahoo.com (Edward Macker) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #972 - 7 msgs In-Reply-To: <200209161617.g8GGGE615268@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20020916194136.9429.qmail@web11508.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks, Jason. I happened to happen upon 'The Country I Remember' over the weekend and am enjoying it. I have another request regarding book-length poems: Could someone, if such a book indeed exists, direct me to a book-length poem with a charismatic narrator a la Holden Caufield; in other words, a young, brash, alternately aware and unself-aware narrator. Thanks, Teddy M. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Sep 17 11:24:24 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 10:24:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Literature and free speech Message-ID: >From the BBC at the following link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/2260922.stm The trial of the prize-winning French novelist Michel Houellebecq on charges of inciting religious hatred has begun in Paris. The controversial writer is being sued by four Islamic organisations after making "insulting" remarks about the religion in an interview about his latest book. Platform has been a best-seller in France The novel, Platform, is also cited in the case being brought by the largest mosques in Paris and Lyon, the National Federation of French Muslims (FNMN) and the World Islamic League. France's Human Rights League has also joined them, saying that Mr Houellebecq's comments amount to "Islamophobia". The case has become a cause celebre, which, like the Salman Rushdie affair, raises questions about the appropriate limits, if any, to be placed on freedom of expression. T-shirt demonstrators ejected In an interview given last year to the French literary magazine Lire, the author was quoted as saying "the dumbest religion, after all, is Islam". "When you read the Koran, you're shattered. The Bible at least is beautifully written because the Jews have a heck of a literary talent," he told Lire. Some of France's best-known novelists, including Philippe Sollers and Regine Desforges, have expressed solidarity with the author. Shortly after the start of the trial, far-right politician Jean-Yves Le Gallou and a number of his supporters were ejected from the court for stripping off their shirts to reveal T-shirts with slogans such as "Freedom of opinion, freedom of expression". The Paris mosque has hired one of France's leading trial lawyers, Jean-Marc Varaut, whose past clients include the Nazi collaborator Maurice Papon, to press its case. Blasphemy Mr Houellebecq's lawyer, Emmanuel Pierrat, argues that the case effectively re-establishes the notion of blasphemy, despite the fact that France is a secular state and has no such law. What I think as an individual seems to be of no importance here Michel Houellebecq Mr Houellebecq, who recently won the Impac literary prize, is used to the controversy - and the attendant publicity - arising from his frank and sometimes nihilistic novels. He has neither retracted his comments nor defended the main character in his novel Platform, who admits to a "quiver of glee" every time a "Palestinian terrorist" is killed. Last year Mr Houellebecq said he had "a gift" for insults and provocation. "In my novels, it adds a certain spice. It's rather humorous, no? What I think as an individual seems to be of no importance here," he said in an interview. But the lawyers for the Paris and Lyon mosques said in a statement: "It is anti-Muslim racism that is at the heart of the trial, not the personality or the provocative tastes of one successful author or another." Houellebecq, who lives in Ireland, is working on the film adaptation of his novel Atomised (Les particules elementaires). He faces a year in jail or a 52,000 euro (?33,000) fine if he loses the case. From rlong at jcws.net Tue Sep 17 12:54:11 2002 From: rlong at jcws.net (Richard Long) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 11:54:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fall Issue of 2RV Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020917115344.01d07bc8@pop3.slu.edu> 2River released today the The 7.1 (Fall 2002) issue of THE 2RIVER VIEW,with new poems by Gabriel Arquilevich, Adrienne Banks, Wendy Carlisle, James Grinwis, Vicki Hudspith, Marlene Lintzer, Walt Mcdonald, Rochelle Ratner, Nanette Rayman, and David Wright; and Irish folk art by Oliver Curran. You can read the issue by clicking the link to it on the 2River home page: http://www.2River.org Richard Long ====== 2River www.2River.org From JforJames at aol.com Tue Sep 17 17:28:04 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:28:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] In defense of indispensable Auden Message-ID: <154.143ecc34.2ab8f864@aol.com> http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/?020923crat_atlarge From JforJames at aol.com Tue Sep 17 20:36:46 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:36:46 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Boland: Against Love Poetry Message-ID: <162.140c3e95.2ab9249e@aol.com> http://www.nortonpoets.com/archive/010900.htm (essay) & from "MARRIAGE" IV. Quarantine In the worst hour of the worst season of the worst year of a whole people a man set out from the workhouse with his wife. He was walking ? they were both walking ? north. She was sick with famine fever and could not keep up. He lifted her and put her on his back. He walked like that west and west and north. Until at nightfall under freezing stars they arrived. In the morning they were both found dead. Of cold. Of hunger. Of the toxins of a whole history. But her feet were held against his breastbone. The last heat of his flesh was his last gift to her. Let no love poem ever come to this threshold. There is no place here for the inexact praise of the easy graces and sensuality of the body. There is only time for this merciless inventory: Their death together in the winter of 1847. Also what they suffered. How they lived. And what there is between a man and woman. And in which darkness it can best be proved. Eavan Boland Against Love Poetry W. W. Norton & Company, Inc. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Sep 17 23:33:54 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:33:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] In defense of indispensable Auden Message-ID: <116.1742617f.2ab94e22@cs.com> A good essay. However, take into consideration several points. 1. Auden's reputation, for the most part, rests, rightly, on his pre-1940 poetry. Of the poems mentioned here, "New Year Letter" (a commissioned work) is the best, with the Tempest poem being good in spots. "The Age of Anxiety" (I wonder how many have slogged through it) is pretty bad. To be sure, there were occasional late triumphs like "The Shield of Achilles" and "In Praise of Limestone," but the lyrical gift was severely diminished, a fact which is typical of many poets as they approach middle age (Hardy excepted). 2. Auden had to write to support himself--always in search of the "smackers" that readings and journalism provided. Like any writer who has to do this, he produced a large amount of crap, with a few gems studded in it. Luckily for him, in the 40s, 50, and even the early 60s there was a middle-brow audience that would pay him to do this, and he had been a celebrity since his move to New York. We all smirk at people like Clifton Fadiman and John Ciardi, but they did manage to keep poets and poetry in front of the general public. Who does this today? 3. Was the influence of Chester Kallman for good or ill? Certainly he kept Wystan on schedule and organized his life and meals, but his aesthetic meddling in the works--mainly apparent in the librettos--seems pretty malign. "The Rake's Progress," obviously knocked off in a fortnight to make money, seems most typical (yet the most successful) of the librettos--good intentions overlaid with a strong dose of camp. A Bearded Lady? Scored for counter-tenor? 4. Auden was a virtuoso who labored under the "anxiety of influence" of the great modernists. We should treasure his great poems--and there are many of them--and do our best to save him from his undiscriminating admirers and apologists. 5. Auden's religious beliefs are a reflection of an innate conservatism that is also clear in his poetics. I do not necessarily mean a political conservatism but a reverence for the past and the "rituals" of versification. In many ways, I believe that his religious conservatism was more closely linked to his poetics than that of Eliot, whom he chiefly resembles among the elder modernists. 6. Auden, like Ransom and a few others, was a miserable revisionist of his own work. The repudiation of "September 1, 1939" is even more ill-advised than Marianne Moore's reductions of "Poetry." 7. He was silly like us. God bless him. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Sep 17 23:37:40 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:37:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Boland: Against Love Poetry Message-ID: <88.1e42a43e.2ab94f04@cs.com> In a message dated 9/17/2002 7:39:05 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > http://www.nortonpoets.com/archive/010900.htm If you want a lively party, Don't invite Thomas Hardy. If you want to keep things rollin', Don't invite Eavan Boland. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Tue Sep 17 23:37:48 2002 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:37:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] one Message-ID: <3D87F50C.D7DFAAE8@ix.netcom.com> http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Tue Sep 17 23:50:01 2002 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:50:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] one Message-ID: <3D87F7E8.1DAC636E@ix.netcom.com> http://www.theassassinatedpress.com/ From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Sep 18 09:03:31 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:03:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boland: Against Love Poetry In-Reply-To: <88.1e42a43e.2ab94f04@cs.com> Message-ID: <3D884163.26482.3BE3CB@localhost> > JforJames at aol.com writes: > > http://www.nortonpoets.com/archive/010900.htm RSGwynn: > If you want a lively party, > Don't invite Thomas Hardy. > If you want to keep things rollin', > Don't invite Eavan Boland. 22. I'd rather read Housman than Hardy Though Hardy and Hopkins could party On bitterer bile Than beer by a mile -- And to beer I prefer my Bacardi. 23. Ah, give me Bacardi and ice Some sweet Rose's Lime Juice is nice ... Let's go on a bender And burn out a blender In homage to serious vice. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 18 13:33:29 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry at GA Tech In-Reply-To: <3D884163.26482.3BE3CB@localhost> Message-ID: <20020918173329.97098.qmail@web13004.mail.yahoo.com> Apologies for any cross-posting: www.iac.gatech.edu/poetry.html Taken from the above website: Monday, October 28, 2002 First Annual Bourne Chair in Poetry The Robert Ferst Center for the Arts at Georgia Tech 7:00 p.m. Free Presented by Thomas Lux Featuring: Lucille Clifton, Billy Collins, Stephen Dobyns; Rita Dove, and John D. Maguire President Emeritus of Claremont Graduate University, Senior Fellow of the Institute for Democratic Renewal, and Initial Chair of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Center for Social Change, will introduce The Hon. Andrew Young who will introduce the poets. Cheers, Jeff Newberry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Sep 18 16:55:14 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:55:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] In defense of indispensable Auden Message-ID: In a message dated 9/17/02 11:35:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > A good essay. However, take into consideration several points. > > 1. Auden's reputation, for the most part, rests, rightly, on his pre-1940 > > poetry. Of the poems mentioned here, "New Year Letter" (a commissioned work) > > is the best, with the Tempest poem being good in spots. "The Age of Anxiety" > > (I wonder how many have slogged through it) is pretty bad. To be sure, > there > were occasional late triumphs like "The Shield of Achilles" and "In Praise > of > Limestone," but the lyrical gift was severely diminished, a fact which is > typical of many poets as they approach middle age (Hardy excepted). > 2. Auden had to write to support himself--always in search of the > "smackers" that readings and journalism provided. Like any writer who has > to > do this, he produced a large amount of crap, with a few gems studded in it. > > Luckily for him, in the 40s, 50, and even the early 60s there was a > middle-brow audience that would pay him to do this, and he had been a > celebrity since his move to New York. We all smirk at people like Clifton > Fadiman and John Ciardi, but they did manage to keep poets and poetry in > front of the general public. Who does this today? > 3. Was the influence of Chester Kallman for good or ill? Certainly he > kept Wystan on schedule and organized his life and meals, but his aesthetic > meddling in the works--mainly apparent in the librettos--seems pretty malign. > > "The Rake's Progress," obviously knocked off in a fortnight to make money, > seems most typical (yet the most successful) of the librettos--good > intentions overlaid with a strong dose of camp. A Bearded Lady? Scored for > > counter-tenor? > 4. Auden was a virtuoso who labored under the "anxiety of influence" of > the great modernists. We should treasure his great poems--and there are > many > of them--and do our best to save him from his undiscriminating admirers and > apologists. > 5. Auden's religious beliefs are a reflection of an innate conservatism > that is also clear in his poetics. I do not necessarily mean a political > conservatism but a reverence for the past and the "rituals" of versification. > > In many ways, I believe that his religious conservatism was more closely > linked to his poetics than that of Eliot, whom he chiefly resembles among > the > elder modernists. > 6. Auden, like Ransom and a few others, was a miserable revisionist of > his > own work. The repudiation of "September 1, 1939" is even more ill-advised > than Marianne Moore's reductions of "Poetry." > 7. He was silly like us. God bless him. > yes, and 8. Auden's essays (like those collected in The Dyer's Hand) continue to provide a wealth of poetic insight and great reading pleasure. Finnegan From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Sep 19 11:06:04 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:06:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Pablo Neruda, "For Everyone" Message-ID: For Everyone I can't just suddenly tell you what I should be telling you, friend, forgive me; you know that although you don't hear my words, I wasn't asleep or in tears, that I'm with you without seeing you for a good long time and until the end. I know that many may wonder "What is Pablo doing?" I'm here. If you look for me in this street you'll find me with my violin, prepared to break into song, prepared to die. It is nothing I have to leave to anyone, not to these others, not to you, and if you listen well, in the rain, you'll hear that I come and go and hang about. And you know that I have to leave. Even if my words don't know it, be sure, I'm the one who left. There is no silence which doesn't end. When the moment comes, expect me and let them all know I'm arriving in the street, with my violin. --Pablo Neruda tr. Alastair Reid fr. *Fully Empowered*, 1975 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Sep 19 11:32:49 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:32:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Pablo Neruda, "Para Todos" (esp. for Sam G.) Message-ID: Para Todos De pronto no puedo decirte lo que yo te debo decir, hombre, perd?name, sabr?s que aunque no escuches mis palabras no me ech? a llorar ni a dormir y que contigo estoy sin verte desde hace tiempo y hasta el fin. Yo comprendo que muchos piensen, y qu? hace Pablo? Estoy aqu?. Si me buscas en esta calle me encontrar?s con mi viol?n preparado para cantar y para morir. No es cuesti?n de dejar a nadie ni menos a aqu?llos, ni a ti, y si escuchas bien, en la lluvia, podr?s o?r que vuelvo y voy y me detengo. Y sabes que debo partir. Si no se saben mis palabras no dudes que soy el que fui. No hay silencio que no termine. Cuando llegue el momento, esp?rame, y que sepan todos que llego a la calle, con mi viol?n. --Pablo Neruda fr. *Fully Empowered*, 1975 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roger at chass.utoronto.ca Thu Sep 19 13:45:32 2002 From: roger at chass.utoronto.ca (Roger Greenwald) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:45:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi Message-ID: <3.0.3.16.20020919134532.2e57a3a8@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> In a message dated 9/17/02 11:35:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > We all smirk at people like Clifton > Fadiman and John Ciardi, but they did manage to keep poets and poetry in > front of the general public. Who does this today? Just a reminder that Ciardi translated The Divine Comedy. Whatever one may think of his own poetry, or for that matter of his version of Dante, _anyone_ who not only attempts but completes a translation of The Divine Comedy has a claim on eternal respect! As for who keeps poets and poetry in front of the general public (or anyway, that portion of it that pays attention at all), I'm sure we can all name poets who manage to keep _themselves_ in the public eye ;-) -- but if you mean in a less self-serving way, I think Pinsky deserves a lot of credit for keeping at it even after his official brief ended (he's often on NPR); and although it's not exactly a general public, at least readers of the N Y Review are getting a few more reviews of poetry now that Charles Simic has started writing regularly for that journal. Roger Greenwald roger at chass.utoronto.ca From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Sep 19 14:28:34 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:28:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi Message-ID: <35.2d22c235.2abb7152@cs.com> In a message dated 9/19/2002 12:47:11 PM Central Daylight Time, roger at chass.utoronto.ca writes: > As for who keeps poets and poetry in front of the general > public (or anyway, that portion of it that pays attention at all), > I'm sure we can all name poets who manage to keep _themselves_ > in the public eye ;-) -- but if you mean in a less self-serving > way, I think Pinsky deserves a lot of credit for keeping > at it even after his official brief ended (he's often on NPR); > and although it's not exactly a general public, at least > readers of the N Y Review are getting a few more reviews > of poetry now that Charles Simic has started writing regularly > for that journal. > Good point, but one longs for the days when Delmore Schwartz and Randall Jarrell and Ciardi were regularly reviewing poetry in mass-circulation magazines. Ciardi even had a television show for a time. And there were also people like Louis Untermeyer, Bennett Cerf, and (groan) Oscar Williams who were able to get poets in front of the public. Cerf's sponsorship of Robinson Jeffers (recounted in Cerf's autobiography) was a noble act that didn't make Random House much money, but he did feel it was his responsibility as a serious publisher to list some serious poets, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Sep 20 10:25:07 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:25:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stress Relief: Recite Poetry Message-ID: <200209201424.g8KEM0iM015171@mx6.mx.voyager.net> > Subject: Ode to Stress - RealAge Tip of the Day > > > Friday, September 20 > Ode to Stress > > For effective stress relief, try reading your favorite poems out loud. > > > Researchers have recently pointed to the stress-reducing potential of > reciting rhythmic poetry. In a study, reading poems aloud for 30 > minutes had a calming effect on the heart rate dynamics of study > participants. Merely talking for 30 minutes did not produce the same > effect. > > RealAge Benefit: Taking care of your emotional health and well-being > can make your RealAge up to 16 years younger. > Click here to read more about this tip. > >Copyright? 2002, > RealAge, Inc. All rights reserved. RealAge shall not be liable for any > errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance > thereon. RealAge? is a federally registered trademark of RealAge, Inc. > Age Reduction(tm) is a trademark of RealAge, Inc. > > ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality, personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Sep 20 11:17:38 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:17:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stress Relief: Recite Poetry In-Reply-To: <200209201424.g8KEM0iM015171@mx6.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020920101647.026195b8@mail.ilstu.edu> A rhetorician in my department is wont to remind us that, "Speech is a powerful lord, which by means of the finest and most invisible body effects the divinest works: it can stop fear and banish grief and create joy and nurture pity. . . The effect of speech upon the condition of the soul is comparable to the power of drugs over the nature of bodies." (from the ancient sophist Gorgias' "Encomium of Helen," 500 B.C.E.) 09:25 AM 9/20/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > Subject: Ode to Stress - RealAge Tip of the Day > > > > > > Friday, September 20 > > Ode to Stress > > > > For effective stress relief, try reading your favorite poems out loud. > > > > > > Researchers have recently pointed to the stress-reducing potential of > > reciting rhythmic poetry. In a study, reading poems aloud for 30 > > minutes had a calming effect on the heart rate dynamics of study > > participants. Merely talking for 30 minutes did not produce the same > > effect. > > > > RealAge Benefit: Taking care of your emotional health and well-being > > can make your RealAge up to 16 years younger. > > Click here to read more about this tip. > > > >Copyright? 2002, > > RealAge, Inc. All rights reserved. RealAge shall not be liable for any > > errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance > > thereon. RealAge? is a federally registered trademark of RealAge, Inc. > > Age Reduction(tm) is a trademark of RealAge, Inc. > > > > > >======================================== >David Graham >Professor of English, Ripon College >grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > >"We're writing the book on quality, personal, >undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu >======================================= > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Sep 20 14:44:39 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:44:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses Message-ID: <200209201843.g8KIhYa86369@mx11.mx.voyager.net> I've been paging through the new Billy Collins collection. I'm going to go way out on a limb here and predict that it will alter no one's opinion of his work. He's not setting forth in any new directions. (And in case you're wondering, "The Names" is not included.) Poetry Daily will currently link you to quite a blistering demolition of Collins's selected poems, at Seattle Weekly: http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0238/books-lightfoot.shtml And here are a couple samples from the new book: Today If ever there were a spring day so perfect, so uplifted by a warm intermittent breeze that it made you want to throw open all the windows in the house and unlatch the door to the canary's cage, indeed, rip the little door from its jamb, a day when the cool brick paths and the garden bursting with peonies seemed so etched in sunlight that you felt like taking a hammer to the glass paperweight on the living room end table, releasing the inhabitants from their snow-covered cottage so they could walk out, holding hands and squinting into this larger dome of blue and white, well, today is just that kind of day. --Billy Collins. *Nine Horses* --------------------------- Elk River Falls is where the Elk River falls from a rocky and considerable height, turning pale with trepidation at the lip (it seemed from where I stood below) before it is unbuckled from itself and plummets, shredded, through the air into the shadows of a frigid pool, so calm around the edges, a place for water to recover from the shock of falling apart and coming back together before it picks up its song again, goes sliding around the massive rocks and past some islands overgrown with weeds then flattens out and slips around a bend and continues on its winding course, according to this camper's guide, then joins the Clearwater at its northern fork, which must in time find the sea where this and every other stream mistakes the monster for itself, sings its name one final time then feels the sudden sting of salt. --Billy Collins. *Nine Horses* ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality, personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Sep 20 15:23:17 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:23:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses In-Reply-To: <200209201843.g8KIhYa86369@mx11.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: on 9/20/02 1:44 PM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote: > I've been paging through the new Billy Collins collection. I'm going to go > way out on a limb here and predict that it will alter no one's opinion of > his work. He's not setting forth in any new directions. (And in case > you're wondering, "The Names" is not included.) > > Poetry Daily will currently link you to quite a blistering demolition of > Collins's selected poems, at Seattle Weekly: > > http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0238/books-lightfoot.shtml > > And here are a couple samples from the new book: > > > Today > > If ever there were a spring day so perfect, > so uplifted by a warm intermittent breeze > > that it made you want to throw > open all the windows in the house > > and unlatch the door to the canary's cage, > indeed, rip the little door from its jamb, > > a day when the cool brick paths > and the garden bursting with peonies > > seemed so etched in sunlight > that you felt like taking > > a hammer to the glass paperweight > on the living room end table, > > releasing the inhabitants > from their snow-covered cottage > > so they could walk out, > holding hands and squinting > > into this larger dome of blue and white, > well, today is just that kind of day. > > --Billy Collins. *Nine Horses* > --------------------------- > Elk River Falls > > > is where the Elk River falls > from a rocky and considerable height, > turning pale with trepidation at the lip > (it seemed from where I stood below) > before it is unbuckled from itself > and plummets, shredded, through the air > into the shadows of a frigid pool, > so calm around the edges, a place > for water to recover from the shock > of falling apart and coming back together > before it picks up its song again, > goes sliding around the massive rocks > and past some islands overgrown with weeds > then flattens out and slips around a bend > and continues on its winding course, > according to this camper's guide, > then joins the Clearwater at its northern fork, > which must in time find the sea > where this and every other stream > mistakes the monster for itself, > sings its name one final time > then feels the sudden sting of salt. > > --Billy Collins. *Nine Horses* The first of these two poems reminds me what I discovered while reading the selected poems of Collins a few weeks ago. Typically, Collins writes about paintings, gardens, art of various sorts, teasing the reader by taking the figurative literally, changing scales, entering the miniature world of a painting (or paperweight), treating the miniature fictive world he enters with a kind of bemused nostalgic tone. One of the first poems I looked at by Collins while leafing through his Selected was in this mode: "Bonsai." After reading the whole book, I wrote the following little poem, which might be read as a kind of reaction to his aims and method. Bonsai Planted in a shallow pan to starve my roots of nourishment, limbs pruned to mimic the quaint romantic gestures of wind-blown fir or knotted pine, hunger-warped, dwarfed by circumstance, I reach down stunted roots into tiny fissures; I aspire past pruning shears toward light, beyond this contracted art, the miniature sublime. The second poem of Collins, "Nine Horses," is interesting in the way it illustrates Collins's poetics. About half of the poem is metrically regular iambic verse--mostly tetrameter, but with pentameter lines strewn among them as well. Here are a couple of pentameter lines: > and past some islands overgrown with weeds > then flattens out and slips around a bend >for water to recover from the shock But tetrameter dominates, especially at the end where it's almost uninterrupted and highly regular: > where this and every other stream > mistakes the monster for itself, > sings its name one final time > then feels the sudden sting of salt. Other lines in the poem, however, are free verse that, at best, allude to iambic meter. Overall, the poem feels somewhat metrical, but despite having evoked those expectations in the reader, the poet doesn't have guts to follow-through by making his lines consistent--God forbid he should be taken for a fusty old formalist. For instance, he opens the poem, with a banal and prosaic first line (that continues and retroactively includes the title): > is where the Elk River falls Collins is not without talent and appeal. He just sets his sights too low and often settles for the somewhat cheesy effect of imagining what, say, it would be like to take a walk in the landscape of a painting. There's a cloying sentimentality in much of his work. At times, he seems a cleverer and more sophisticated McKuen, who's added a little Simic-style surrealism for spice. Paul Lake From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Sep 20 15:32:25 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:32:25 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses References: <200209201843.g8KIhYa86369@mx11.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3D8B77C8.8EA1E329@earthlink.net> My capsule review is below in the poems. - Jim David Graham wrote: > > I've been paging through the new Billy Collins collection. I'm going to go > way out on a limb here and predict that it will alter no one's opinion of > his work. He's not setting forth in any new directions. (And in case > you're wondering, "The Names" is not included.) > > Poetry Daily will currently link you to quite a blistering demolition of > Collins's selected poems, at Seattle Weekly: > > http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0238/books-lightfoot.shtml > > And here are a couple samples from the new book: > > Today > > If ever there were a spring day so perfect, > so uplifted by a warm intermittent breeze > snoozed off right there! > > --Billy Collins. *Nine Horses* > --------------------------- > Elk River Falls > > is where the Elk River falls > from a rocky and considerable height, > turning pale with trepidation at the lip and felt my intelligence insulted right there! > > --Billy Collins. *Nine Horses* From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Sep 20 20:52:37 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:52:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI Message-ID: <118.17b68438.2abd1cd5@cs.com> David Sheppherd: The Of [ ]of If : Juliana Lacey And The Rhetoric Of Complexity This study proposes to bring comprehension of radical momentum and energy into understanding through a discussion of what Marjorie Perloff and others have styled the ?graphically decentered field?of Juliana Lacey?s poetry. The phenomenology of looking at Lacey's work leads to a pragmatism that breaks down the conventionalist's proposal for cultural singularity in semiological discourse and presents cognition with unresolved issue and a challenge to description. In the process of the response to Lacey's work the paper demonstrates a contemplation of some perception theories proposed by scientists like Peter Medawar and writers like M. Merleau-Ponty; art historians like Heinrich Kellner and mathematicians like Kurt G?del. Whereas the mainstream conventionalist?s "context-independent ratios" are unresponsive to the intervallic irruption of acoustic elements not recuperable by monologic analysis, Lacey calls for textual heteroclites and 'dysraphism, a congenital misseaming of embryonic parts' in order to reconfigure the textual relations of autonomous parts and unforseeable wholes according to a logic of deformation, reconstitution and 'provisional limits' close to a Deleuzian rhetoric of assemblage. 'The poem enters [inters] the world', Lacey writes in The Of [ ]of If (1998), invoking a Lacanian topology, 'and each of us inside it, facing it', animated or activated by the mutual engagements and investments of texts, contexts, readers and writers. Most reader/viewers of works by Juliana Lacey are struck by the extraordinary attention she pays to the distinction between what Deleuze styles ?paralexemic units?, "noise" and the "emancipation of sound" from pedestrian functionality together with the visual complexity of her typographical collage. The history of reading the, in Gerard Genette?s formulation, "oblique physicality" of Lacey?s technologically-assisted auralities and their extrasemantic, alogical force from within discourses as various as Klaus Hartmann?s ?materialist isochronism? and Georges Bataille's "general economy", confounds antiquated notions of a phenomenological linguistic stability independent of social and historical determinants. Indeed, most reader/viewers of Lacey?s work find themselves drawn to making spatio-temporal discriminations with extraordinary accuracy. In normal reading, that is in the examples of most human subjects tested by opticians, relative position, width or size of text can achieve a hyperacuity much finer than the spacing of even the smallest foveal cones in the eyes. In Lacey?s work, microprosopopoeia (rhetorical impersonation or reanimation on the level of the smallest semantic units) is the master trope of an elliptical, maverick and scholarly intertextuality on the level of microtypography. Hyperacuity in spatio-temporal vision refers to an accuracy in judging relative position that exceeds the system's resolving power. Whereas the resolution at each fovea in humans is about 1 arc min., humans can detect positional discrepancies of as little as a few arc seconds. The fove? are the small, central areas of the retina containing the highest density of cone photoreceptors to provide high spatio-temporal resolution. This area, within the viewer/reader, is exactly that graphically decentered field in which Lacey?s work is performed. Indeed, much of the printed text of ?Shr!w Cl!t!r!s? (1999) (?shrew clitoris?), invisible to the naked eye, initiates a complex momentem of inference on the part of the viewer/reader, thereby engaging her in the mode of poetic production to the point where she replaces the function of monocentric ?authorship?. Heinrich Kellner has termed this practice "radical momentum". Contemporary with such ability in human vision are the misconceptions of prevalent culture that disregards the constructions which precede the process and production of perception. Put more lightly, it might be said that perception is mediated by what the perceiver knows, by memory and experience. In more explicit terms, perception includes the process of constructing and producing, not of what is being looked at, but of what is seen. Producing Juliana Lacey's two-dimensional works for spatio-temporal information as part of the process of viewing, the eyes may make discrete samplings along the length of lines comprising what is being looked at, at times it is as if the eyes were following an indiscernible structure. On the one hand, this process has a relatively small impact on the accuracy of spatio-temporal discriminations, presumably because the foveae have little intrinsic positional uncertainty between marked and unmarked parts of the surface. On the other hand, Lacey's performed poems, particulary in her 1997 B!ll!ck performance at the Giraffe Cloud gallery in Los Angeles, are non-Aristotelian; that is they deliberately include facture derived from the peripheral and unfocussed vision that leaves fragments of erasure extant, and this is coterminous with the silences and subaudial noise in her technologically assisted vocalizations and ?body noise?. Non-Aristotelian refers to Alfred Korzybski's idea of order. Its complexity (in 1941) involved fifty-two orientations recognised as different from the antique Aristotelian system which had been perpetuated until the middle nineteenth century and later Modernist period. Examples of non-Aristotelian orientations include asymmetrical relations for evaluation; electronic processes; infinite-valued flexibility; empirical non-identity; dynamic relativism; empirical four dimensional spacetime; sub-microscopic levels; non-Euclidian systems; Einsteinian systems; psychosomatic integration; and elimination of verbal paradox. Korzybski's aligns this set of orientations with Roman Jakobson's relativistic model of language functions, which sees reference as a non-central function of language with inherent form . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Sep 20 21:08:26 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 18:08:26 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI References: <118.17b68438.2abd1cd5@cs.com> Message-ID: <3D8BC68A.EF86878@earthlink.net> So, Sam, where do you fit in in all this? - Jim Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > David Sheppherd: > > The Of [ ]of If : Juliana Lacey And The Rhetoric Of Complexity > > This study proposes to bring comprehension of radical momentum and > energy into understanding through a discussion of what Marjorie > Perloff and > others have styled the 3graphically decentered field2of Juliana > Lacey1s > poetry. The phenomenology of looking at Lacey's work leads to a > pragmatism > that breaks down the conventionalist's proposal for cultural > singularity in > semiological discourse and presents cognition with unresolved issue > and a > challenge to description. In the process of the response to Lacey's > work the > paper demonstrates a contemplation of some perception theories > proposed by > scientists like Peter Medawar and writers like M. Merleau-Ponty; art > historians like Heinrich Kellner and mathematicians like Kurt G?del. > Whereas > the mainstream conventionalist1s "context-independent ratios" are > unresponsive to the intervallic irruption of acoustic elements not > recuperable by monologic analysis, Lacey calls for textual > heteroclites and > 'dysraphism, a congenital misseaming of embryonic parts' in order to > reconfigure the textual relations of autonomous parts and unforseeable > wholes according to a logic of deformation, reconstitution and > 'provisional > limits' close to a Deleuzian rhetoric of assemblage. 'The poem enters > [inters] the world', Lacey writes in The Of [ ]of If (1998), invoking > a > Lacanian topology, 'and each of us inside it, facing it', animated or > activated by the mutual engagements and investments of texts, > contexts, > readers and writers. Most reader/viewers of works by Juliana Lacey are > struck by the extraordinary attention she pays to the distinction > between > what Deleuze styles 3paralexemic units2, "noise" and the "emancipation > of > sound" from pedestrian functionality together with the visual > complexity of > her typographical collage. The history of reading the, in Gerard > Genette1s > formulation, "oblique physicality" of Lacey1s technologically-assisted > auralities and their extrasemantic, alogical force from within > discourses as > various as Klaus Hartmann1s 3materialist isochronism2 and Georges > Bataille's > "general economy", confounds antiquated notions of a phenomenological > linguistic stability independent of social and historical > determinants. > Indeed, most reader/viewers of Lacey1s work find themselves drawn to > making > spatio-temporal discriminations with extraordinary accuracy. In normal > reading, that is in the examples of most human subjects tested by > opticians, > relative position, width or size of text can achieve a hyperacuity > much > finer than the spacing of even the smallest foveal cones in the eyes. > In > Lacey1s work, microprosopopoeia (rhetorical impersonation or > reanimation on > the level of the smallest semantic units) is the master trope of an > elliptical, maverick and scholarly intertextuality on the level of > microtypography. Hyperacuity in spatio-temporal vision refers to an > accuracy in judging relative position that exceeds the system's > resolving > power. Whereas the resolution at each fovea in humans is about 1 arc > min., > humans can detect positional discrepancies of as little as a few arc > seconds. The fove? are the small, central areas of the retina > containing the > highest density of cone photoreceptors to provide high spatio-temporal > resolution. This area, within the viewer/reader, is exactly that > graphically > decentered field in which Lacey1s work is performed. Indeed, much of > the > printed text of 3Shr!w Cl!t!r!s2 (1999) (3shrew clitoris2), invisible > to the > naked eye, initiates a complex momentem of inference on the part of > the > viewer/reader, thereby engaging her in the mode of poetic production > to the > point where she replaces the function of monocentric 3authorship2. > Heinrich > Kellner has termed this practice "radical momentum". > > Contemporary with such ability in human vision are the misconceptions > of > prevalent culture that disregards the constructions which precede the > process and production of perception. Put more lightly, it might be > said > that perception is mediated by what the perceiver knows, by memory and > experience. In more explicit terms, perception includes the process of > constructing and producing, not of what is being looked at, but of > what is > seen. Producing Juliana Lacey's two-dimensional works for > spatio-temporal > information as part of the process of viewing, the eyes may make > discrete > samplings along the length of lines comprising what is being looked > at, at > times it is as if the eyes were following an indiscernible structure. > On the > one hand, this process has a relatively small impact on the accuracy > of > spatio-temporal discriminations, presumably because the foveae have > little > intrinsic positional uncertainty between marked and unmarked parts of > the > surface. On the other hand, Lacey's performed poems, particulary in > her 1997 > B!ll!ck performance at the Giraffe Cloud gallery in Los Angeles, are > non-Aristotelian; that is they deliberately include facture derived > from the > peripheral and unfocussed vision that leaves fragments of erasure > extant, > and this is coterminous with the silences and subaudial noise in her > technologically assisted vocalizations and 3body noise2. > > Non-Aristotelian refers to Alfred Korzybski's idea of order. Its > complexity > (in 1941) involved fifty-two orientations recognised as different from > the > antique Aristotelian system which had been perpetuated until the > middle > nineteenth century and later Modernist period. Examples of > non-Aristotelian > orientations include asymmetrical relations for evaluation; electronic > processes; infinite-valued flexibility; empirical non-identity; > dynamic > relativism; empirical four dimensional spacetime; sub-microscopic > levels; > non-Euclidian systems; Einsteinian systems; psychosomatic integration; > and > elimination of verbal paradox. Korzybski's aligns this set of > orientations > with Roman Jakobson's relativistic model of language functions, which > sees > reference as a non-central function of language with inherent form . From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Sep 20 22:13:10 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:13:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI Message-ID: <83.20fdc284.2abd2fb6@cs.com> In a message dated 9/20/2002 8:08:53 PM Central Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > So, Sam, where do you fit in in all this? Somewhere outside them square brackets, I hope. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Sep 21 09:59:48 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 09:59:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bonsai In-Reply-To: References: <200209201843.g8KIhYa86369@mx11.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3D8C4314.6220.1CD3DA@localhost> Paul Lake: > ... One of the first poems I looked at by > Collins while leafing through his Selected was in this mode: "Bonsai." After > reading the whole book, I wrote the following little poem, which might be > read as a kind of reaction to his aims and method. > > Bonsai > > Planted > in a shallow pan > to starve my roots > of nourishment, > > limbs pruned > to mimic the quaint > romantic gestures > of wind-blown fir > or knotted pine, > > hunger-warped, > dwarfed > by circumstance, > > I reach down > stunted roots > into tiny fissures; > > I aspire > past pruning shears > toward light, beyond > > this contracted art, > the miniature > sublime. > Maybe everyone has a bonsai poem or two. Here's one of mine, taking a line from Kilmer instead of Collins: Bonsai In The Window (using one line from Kilmer's Trees) The bonsai in the window, turned So sunlight stripes its roots and pot But not a single leaf, has earned The dribbled drink it finally got. Through mossy soil that's thin as grief The paltry droplets barely run To tempt each upward branch and leaf To twist back down into the sun. It suffers artifice of blight, And twists its grain around its grain Against its girth in stunted height, Its being bent in beauty's pain While outside others day and night Who intimately live with rain With wind and weight, not wire, strain To grow up straight into the light. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From gmcvay at patriot.net Sat Sep 21 10:03:44 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 10:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bonsai In-Reply-To: <3D8C4314.6220.1CD3DA@localhost> Message-ID: A very small tree, made that way by pruning it. Whoa dude, I'm short too! Gwyn (this is the level best you're gonna get from me before noon) McVay --- ...the busy day, Waked by the lark, hath roused the ribald crows. --_Troilus and Cressida_, IV ii From hruggier at localnet.com Sat Sep 21 11:38:40 2002 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:38:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing Message-ID: <3D8C9280.1D4F2232@localnet.com> This is not about Billy Collins but about a tendency of reviewers to want more than what is. Collins is being attacked for doing what he does. He is not going to turn around and write "The Wasteland," it's not his thing. Brian Henry writing in last week's NY Times Book Review does the same thing in reviewing Mona Van Duyn's Selected Poems. In the last paragraph he says, "Although the book highlights her memorable poems, it is unlikely to enhance her reputation, because her poetry's modesty of demeanor is frequently matched by its modest of achievement. Other comments, "practicing a tired formalism," "less pressing reasons to write," and "genial ways to pass the time." The reviewer wants "incendiary" and isn't happy with the domestic. To jump from these two specifics to a general is risky, but it seems we not only hold poets responsible for doing what they do, but for what we think they should do. I write about what I have to write, what comes my way, what comes to me. That's not going to change because language poetry is hot, or I think I should write some great lyric about 9/11. It's like blaming poets for being who they are, for being middle class or working class or being extroverted or introverted.. I don't necessarily want to argue this - but to discuss this part of the creative process. We write what we are. Modest person, modest aspirations. Inflated ego/vast aspirations - Pound's Cantos. Should only suicides and madmen be praised for their intensity? H From chryss at silcom.com Sat Sep 21 12:43:28 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 09:43:28 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing In-Reply-To: <3D8C9280.1D4F2232@localnet.com> Message-ID: Helen, This is a great distinction. Let's not blame Collins for being Collins. As you say, he does what he does, and I think he does it well for the most part. My complaint is with the forces that appointed Collins to be our poet laureate. That is NOT what he does, and he will continue to disappoint most of our expectations for what a poet laureate should be. Electing Collins to be poet laureate was like electing Mr. Rogers to be president. Not a bad guy, simply a poor fit. C. > From: Helen Ruggieri > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:38:40 -0400 > To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing > > This is not about Billy Collins but about a tendency of reviewers to > want more than what is. Collins is being attacked for doing what he > does. He is not going to turn around and write "The Wasteland," it's > not his thing. > > Brian Henry writing in last week's NY Times Book Review does the same > thing in reviewing Mona Van Duyn's Selected Poems. In the last > paragraph he says, "Although the book highlights her memorable poems, it > is unlikely to enhance her reputation, because her poetry's modesty of > demeanor is frequently matched by its modest of achievement. > > Other comments, "practicing a tired formalism," "less pressing reasons > to write," and "genial ways to pass the time." > > The reviewer wants "incendiary" and isn't happy with the domestic. > > To jump from these two specifics to a general is risky, but it seems we > not only hold poets responsible for doing what they do, but for what we > think they should do. > > I write about what I have to write, what comes my way, what comes to > me. That's not going to change because language poetry is hot, or I > think I should write some great lyric about 9/11. It's like blaming > poets for being who they are, for being middle class or working class or > being extroverted or introverted.. > > I don't necessarily want to argue this - but to discuss this part of the > creative process. We write what we are. Modest person, modest > aspirations. Inflated ego/vast aspirations - Pound's Cantos. Should > only suicides and madmen be praised for their intensity? > > H > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Sep 21 13:04:07 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 13:04:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing Message-ID: In a message dated 9/21/2002 11:46:10 AM Central Daylight Time, chryss at silcom.com writes: > Helen, > This is a great distinction. Let's not blame Collins for being Collins. > As you say, he does what he does, and I think he does it well for the most > part. > My complaint is with the forces that appointed Collins to be our poet > laureate. That is NOT what he does, and he will continue to disappoint most > of our expectations for what a poet laureate should be. > Electing Collins to be poet laureate was like electing Mr. Rogers to be > president. Not a bad guy, simply a poor fit. > C. Absolutely! Time to get the ball rolling for Gwyn! Or did I misspell that? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sat Sep 21 13:05:27 2002 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 10:05:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The bashing of those whose hair is not on fire In-Reply-To: <200209211602.g8LG23630180@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020921100000.009f0900@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:02 PM 9/21/02 -0400, Helen Ruggieri wrote: Should only suicides and madmen be praised for their intensity? HearHearHearHearHear! (for the love of windswept hair) B. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Sep 21 13:12:13 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:12:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing Message-ID: <200209211711.g8LHB8i07981@mx7.mx.voyager.net> I'm not too interested at the moment in defending Billy Collins, whose work I like more than many do. I appreciate Paul Lake's close look at his work, and attempt to analyze its character and limitations. Longer term, I've been thinking half-heartedly of writing an essay called "Two and a Half Cheers for Billy Collins," in which I would try to explain why, despite some obvious limitations of range and sensibility, Collins is nonetheless for me a welcome feature of the poetic landscape. And too often dismissed for not being Yeats, as it were. I do think this broader discussion is worth having, in any case. Seems to get at one of the perennial challenges of critical response: how to fairly assess "minor" poetry without ignoring its limitations or making unduly large claims for it. Prediction is foolish, I know, but I have a feeling that Collins may be our era's A. E. Housman, and if so, that's a pretty wonderful thing to be. Years ago I published an essay on Robert Francis that grappled a bit with this issue--how to evaluate his work without merely noting that he's not as great as Robert Frost. Well, he is and he isn't, I'd say. Reading Collins's new book I did find myself thinking now and then of Francis, as it happened. (In any case, my Francis essay is online at my poetry library, if anyone's curious: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/grahamd/FRANCIS.html) ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality, personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= ---------- >From: Helen Ruggieri >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing >Date: Sat, Sep 21, 2002, 10:38 AM > >This is not about Billy Collins but about a tendency of reviewers to >want more than what is. Collins is being attacked for doing what he >does. He is not going to turn around and write "The Wasteland," it's >not his thing. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Sep 21 13:54:35 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 10:54:35 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The bashing of those whose hair is not on fire References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020921100000.009f0900@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <3D8CB258.ACE81FC3@earthlink.net> Actually, Barry, it would be much tougher to diagnose suicidal tendencies and hidden mental problems than it would be to diagnose tired formalism or modest aspirations, though I suppose there could be an intensely tired formalism. - Dr. Jim, charging only a nickel Barry Spacks wrote: > > At 12:02 PM 9/21/02 -0400, Helen Ruggieri wrote: > > Should only suicides and madmen be praised for their intensity? > > HearHearHearHearHear! > (for the love of windswept hair) > > B. From roger at chass.utoronto.ca Sat Sep 21 14:34:23 2002 From: roger at chass.utoronto.ca (Roger Greenwald) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 14:34:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] reviews Message-ID: <3.0.3.16.20020921143423.2cb7deec@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> Helen Ruggieri wrote: >This is not about Billy Collins but about a tendency of reviewers to want more than what is. Collins is being attacked for doing what he does. He is not going to turn around and write "The Wasteland," it's not his thing. The review of Collins's latest book in the Seattle Weekly ( http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0238/books-lightfoot.shtml ) _is,_ it seems to me, about what Collins does, as well as about what he does not do. A reviewer has not only a right but an obligation to say "What these texts do is [superficial/ deceptive/patronizing etc.]" if that is what he or she thinks. I think that in reviewing or writing any sort of criticism (including introductions and afterwords to books), one can approach texts in a generous way or an ungenerous way--i.e., determined to point out to readers the qualities that make one value the texts, or determined to point out the shortcomings; a balanced approach might point out both accomplishments and flaws. I agree that a reviewer who considers a text "flawed" because it doesn't do what the _reviewer_ would have liked it to do (or wants all texts to do), rather than because it doesn't do something that the text itself would seem to demand, is being unfair. That said, a reviewer isn't a teacher, either, whose policy may be to err on the side of praise and encouragement in the hope that the writer may do better next time. The audience for the teacher's comments is the writer; the audience for the reviewer's comments is the reader/bookbuyer--and in many cases, also other reviewers and critics. The ungenerous quality of reviews like that of Collins cited above derives in part from the reviewer's feeling that a corrective to unwarranted praise is called for. She is arguing with Collins's reputation (and those who reinforce it) as much as with Collins's poetry. But that is what criticism is often about, whether one likes it or not (i.e., the attempt to "rank" writers one against another, rather than to value each book or writer on the merits and leave it at that). I don't think there's anything inherently unfair about this enterprise; the questions are whether the review backs up its claim credibly and whether one can detect some ulterior motive in the reviewer (such as professional envy). >Brian Henry writing in last week's NY Times Book Review does the same thing in reviewing Mona Van Duyn's Selected Poems. In the last paragraph he says, "Although the book highlights her memorable poems, it is unlikely to enhance her reputation, because her poetry's modesty of demeanor is frequently matched by its modesty of achievement." I haven't read the review, but this sounds like an attenpt at an overall, balanced assessment, whether or not you happen to agree with it. >Other comments, "practicing a tired formalism," "less pressing reasons to write," and "genial ways to pass the time." >The reviewer wants "incendiary" and isn't happy with the domestic. These comments--especially if Henry himself said he wanted the "incendiary"--do sound like a list of what the reviewer wants and therefore suggest that he may be unwilling to recognize other sorts of merit. But note that two of the phrases quoted above refer to a very general criterion that is independent of particular styles: the demand that a poem feel like it was something the poet really needed to write. A poem that does not feel this way is not too likely to make you feel it is something you really need to read. This is not a _sufficient_ criterion, of course--people may really need to write what they write in their diaries, but that doesn't mean it would be interesting for anyone else to read the entries--but in my view it is a necessary criterion. Most writers would agree that work that fails on the level of craft, that has little verbal interest, and so on, is unlikely to engage experienced readers. But many seem eager to pretend that craft and verbal interest are enough, even when a poem clearly lacks any urgent impulse (even the urgent impulse just to have fun with words). >To jump from these two specifics to a general is risky, but it seems we not only hold poets responsible for doing what they do, but for what we think they should do. I think this is inevitable, and not just in reviewers. But it would be nice if reviewers could be generous enough to point out what is of value. >I write about what I have to write, what comes my way, what comes to me. That's not going to change because language poetry is hot, or I think I should write some great lyric about 9/11. It's like blaming poets for being who they are, for being middle class or working class or being extroverted or introverted. If that's what's happening, rather than an assessment of the work, then I agree--it's most annoying. There is a lot of faddishness as well as prejudice of various kinds in reviews. But it has to be faced that there are more books, even within the slim genre of poetry, than any one person can read, and reviewers are supposed to give us an idea of which books offer what. Too often they give us only an idea of whether a book suited _their_ particular tastes; but I don't think we can complain when a reviewer says a given poet writes serviceable but unexciting poems, or derivative poems, etc., provided the reviewer bothers to back this up with some quotation and discussion, so we can decide whether we agree or not and can get enough of a taste of the book so we can know whether we want to have a look for ourselves. >I don't necessarily want to argue this - but to discuss this part of the creative process. We write what we are. Modest person, modest aspirations. Inflated ego/vast aspirations - Pound's Cantos. Should only suicides and madmen be praised for their intensity? How is the question "Who should be praised?" part of the creative process? We write the best we can. Who gets praised for what is a question that arises after the fact of writing; it's a question in the critical realm, not the creative one (though most of us can probably name authors who seem to write books designed to provide fodder for critics of particular theoretical persuasions.) Intense poets get praised for their intensity, yes, though after the passage of some years or decades, the intense poet sometimes seems merely overwrought. And calm poets may be praised for their calm, or for some vision that emerges through that calm. (Carl Dennis got the Pulitzer, remember.) You can argue that the culture's overall critical values are still too heavily under the influence of Romanticism--but "too" heavily for _what?_ The pendulum has probably always swung between classicism and a sort of romanticism (even before Romanticism arose), or in other terms, between the Apollonian and the Dionysian. In the long run, the best writing in both modes gets valued--assuming it gets published at all (but that is another issue!). Roger Greenwald roger at chass.utoronto.ca From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 21 15:12:29 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 15:12:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing Message-ID: In a message dated 9/21/02 11:15:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes: > This is not about Billy Collins but about a tendency of reviewers to > want more than what is. Collins is being attacked for doing what he > does. He is not going to turn around and write "The Wasteland," it's > not his thing. > > Brian Henry writing in last week's NY Times Book Review does the same > thing in reviewing Mona Van Duyn's Selected Poems. In the last > paragraph he says, "Although the book highlights her memorable poems, it > is unlikely to enhance her reputation, because her poetry's modesty of > demeanor is frequently matched by its modest of achievement. > > Other comments, "practicing a tired formalism," "less pressing reasons > to write," and "genial ways to pass the time." > > The reviewer wants "incendiary" and isn't happy with the domestic. > > To jump from these two specifics to a general is risky, but it seems we > not only hold poets responsible for doing what they do, but for what we > think they should do. > > I write about what I have to write, what comes my way, what comes to > me. That's not going to change because language poetry is hot, or I > think I should write some great lyric about 9/11. It's like blaming > poets for being who they are, for being middle class or working class or > being extroverted or introverted.. > > I don't necessarily want to argue this - but to discuss this part of the > creative process. We write what we are. Modest person, modest > aspirations. Inflated ego/vast aspirations - Pound's Cantos. Should > only suicides and madmen be praised for their intensity? > Helen, some nice points in your post. I agree to a degree. I think Collins is wonderful in his own way. I've damned him with faint praise at times, and I'm not going to say much more about him here. Van Duyn never had the notoriety or the following Collins has enjoyed, but her poems, formal merits aside, share his modest ambitions. I would defend Brian Henry's review on account of it's saying what he values in poetry. And that is a revieweres/critic's responsibility....not only to read and to acknowledge the poet on the basis of certain self-evident flaws/merits..but the critic must state (overtly or obliquely), "[This} is what I think poetry should be," and, "[this} is why he/she fails/affirms my view of what poetry is/should be " Also, it's not the subject matter that is the problem. Great poems can come from daily/domestic experience. (Dickinson being the obvious example.) It's a matter of the quality of vision/insight and the depth of experience that the quotidian can evoke in the poet (capacity), and the poet being capable of conveying (facility) those elements to the reader. A poet like Collins or Van Duyn has the latter (the facility and the expertise) in spades...the question can either see beyond the what the rest of us would see? In some ways we love them, a Collins or a Van Duyn, because they, through their facilities, show us what we already knew was there. Here's where I would argue with Pope...it's not What oft was thought but ne'er so well expressed...poetry, at its finest, is So well expressed that which I'd have never thought. Finnegan Now comedic aspect found in From JforJames at aol.com Sat Sep 21 19:14:15 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:14:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing Message-ID: In a message dated 9/21/02 12:46:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chryss at silcom.com writes: > My complaint is with the forces that appointed Collins to be our poet > laureate. That is NOT what he does, and he will continue to disappoint most > of our expectations for what a poet laureate should be. > Electing Collins to be poet laureate was like electing Mr. Rogers to be > president. Not a bad guy, simply a poor fit. Chryss, it seems to me Collins is perfect for the job. The honor and the job being diffferent matters. If the honor is meant to go to the finest poet of our times (stop & think here that Britian's poet laureate, and the English have a much longer history behind this honor, is Andrew Motion)... then Collins comes up short. But if the job is emissary for poetry, to be given to a poet blessed with a gift for promoting poetry as a vital & lively art, an art capable of speaking to the general public (not talking over people's heads or mumbling under its breath so that they can't hear) then Collins is the man/poet for the job. Finnegan From chryss at silcom.com Sat Sep 21 20:26:18 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 17:26:18 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If Collins were the perfect PL, then everyone in the country would know: (1) that we have a poet laureate, (2) that poetry is alive and well in this country, and (3) why they should care. Under the job description you list below, Collins is less successful than Pinksy. Seems to me that Collins is a comfy, cozy PL, but that's different than a perfect PL. C. > From: JforJames at aol.com > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:14:15 EDT > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing > > In a message dated 9/21/02 12:46:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > chryss at silcom.com writes: > >> My complaint is with the forces that appointed Collins to be our poet >> laureate. That is NOT what he does, and he will continue to disappoint most >> of our expectations for what a poet laureate should be. >> Electing Collins to be poet laureate was like electing Mr. Rogers to be >> president. Not a bad guy, simply a poor fit. > Chryss, it seems to me Collins is perfect for the job. The honor and the > job being diffferent matters. If the honor is meant to go to the finest poet > of our times (stop & think here that Britian's poet laureate, and the > English have a much longer history behind this honor, is Andrew Motion)... > then Collins comes up short. But if the job is emissary for poetry, to be > given > to a poet blessed with a gift for promoting poetry as a vital & lively art, > an art capable of speaking to the general public (not talking over people's > heads or mumbling under its breath so that they can't hear) then Collins is > the man/poet for the job. > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 22 13:55:12 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:55:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing Message-ID: In a message dated 9/21/02 8:28:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chryss at silcom.com writes: > If Collins were the perfect PL, then everyone in the country would know: (1) > that we have a poet laureate, (2) that poetry is alive and well in this > country, and (3) why they should care. > Under the job description you list below, Collins is less successful than > Pinksy. > Seems to me that Collins is a comfy, cozy PL, but that's different than a > perfect PL. C, that seems a tall order for any poet laureate. I don't think Pinsky, despite the considerable energy he brought to the job, accomplished 1-3. Collins seems to be a very visible presence, wowing audiences here and there. Of course Pinsky made it onto The Simpsons, and he's a regular guest on the Jim Lehrer's NewsHour... http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/poems/poems.html so he's out front of Collins when it comes to mass media appearances. Finnegan From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 22 14:01:10 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:01:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Morning as Billy Collins Message-ID: <200209221800.g8MI05T21589@mx12.mx.voyager.net> My Morning as Billy Collins As I pad in my sleep-rumpled robe toward the coffee maker this morning, I am so fresh from dream, with its earnest dogs talking about John Ruskin and cotton candy saxophones floating like sweet clouds above the sleeping house, I am absolutely unsurprised to hear, from the sun-glossy pages of a *New Yorker* spread on the kitchen table, tiny cries of yearning and appeal. The magazine lying open, as it happens, to a page of Bahamian beaches, naturally the tiny woman there calls to me, as on the facing page her sad sister wanders the lobby of a Swiss hotel in blue evening gown, in search of someone very much, I choose to think, like me. And so--why not?--I let myself tumble down into that brilliance and clarity, away from my stolid toaster, my neat placemat, slipping just a bit as I place my sockfeet on the dangerously glossy surface of things. But soon I gain my sea legs, and then can feel the gentle swell lift our yacht toward the sun, and either that woman in her gleaming skin grows larger, or else I shrink as I glide forward to embrace her near the mahogany of the cabin door, and there we stand in our sea-scented moment with nothing but the faint yet not unpleasant odor of a perfume ad bleeding from the next page to distract us from our single-minded gaze over the still-blue horizon of possibility. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From chryss at silcom.com Sun Sep 22 14:06:28 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 11:06:28 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > C, that seems a tall order for any poet laureate. Yep! I totally agree. > From: JforJames at aol.com > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:55:12 EDT > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing > > In a message dated 9/21/02 8:28:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > chryss at silcom.com writes: > >> If Collins were the perfect PL, then everyone in the country would know: (1) >> that we have a poet laureate, (2) that poetry is alive and well in this >> country, and (3) why they should care. >> Under the job description you list below, Collins is less successful than >> Pinksy. >> Seems to me that Collins is a comfy, cozy PL, but that's different than a >> perfect PL. > C, that seems a tall order for any poet laureate. I don't think Pinsky, > despite the considerable energy he brought to the job, accomplished > 1-3. Collins seems to be a very visible presence, wowing audiences here > and there. Of course Pinsky made it onto The Simpsons, and he's a > regular guest on the Jim Lehrer's NewsHour... > http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/poems/poems.html > so he's out front of Collins when it comes to mass media appearances. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sun Sep 22 15:16:11 2002 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 12:16:11 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Name for an Old School In-Reply-To: <200209221601.g8MG13609122@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020922115748.009f7660@incoming.verizon.net> At 12:01 PM 9/22/02 -0400, James Cervantes wrote: >I suppose there could be an intensely tired formalism. ah, our widely-attended school of Intensely Tired Formalism (better than drum-machines at midnight). I wear an Omnist school tie, so must rear back and heart-cry whenever some Peter besmirches some good-Paul for what seems the benefit of anti-Pauline, pro-Petrick po'-politics (mouthful intended). In short, categorical put-downs are odious. Neither bomb Baghdad nor New Paltz! Omnism Forever! B. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Sun Sep 22 17:25:50 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 16:25:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bonsai In-Reply-To: <3D8C4314.6220.1CD3DA@localhost> Message-ID: on 9/21/02 8:59 AM, Marcus Bales at marcus at designerglass.com wrote: > Paul Lake: >> ... One of the first poems I looked at by >> Collins while leafing through his Selected was in this mode: "Bonsai." After >> reading the whole book, I wrote the following little poem, which might be >> read as a kind of reaction to his aims and method. >> >> Bonsai >> >> Planted >> in a shallow pan >> to starve my roots >> of nourishment, >> >> limbs pruned >> to mimic the quaint >> romantic gestures >> of wind-blown fir >> or knotted pine, >> >> hunger-warped, >> dwarfed >> by circumstance, >> >> I reach down >> stunted roots >> into tiny fissures; >> >> I aspire >> past pruning shears >> toward light, beyond >> >> this contracted art, >> the miniature >> sublime. >> > > Maybe everyone has a bonsai poem or two. Here's one of mine, taking > a line from Kilmer instead of Collins: > > Bonsai In The Window > (using one line from Kilmer's Trees) > > The bonsai in the window, turned > So sunlight stripes its roots and pot > But not a single leaf, has earned > The dribbled drink it finally got. > Through mossy soil that's thin as grief > The paltry droplets barely run > To tempt each upward branch and leaf > To twist back down into the sun. > > It suffers artifice of blight, > And twists its grain around its grain > Against its girth in stunted height, > Its being bent in beauty's pain > While outside others day and night > Who intimately live with rain > With wind and weight, not wire, strain > To grow up straight into the light. > > > > > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Nice poem, Marcus, going beyond the plant itself to make larger observations. Paul Lake From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Sun Sep 22 17:27:37 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 16:27:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bonsai In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 9/21/02 9:03 AM, Gwyn McVay at gmcvay at patriot.net wrote: > A very small tree, > made that way by pruning it. > Whoa dude, I'm short too! > > Gwyn (this is the level best you're gonna get from me before noon) McVay > > --- > ...the busy day, > Waked by the lark, hath roused the ribald crows. > --_Troilus and Cressida_, IV ii > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > A very zen haiku, Grasshopper. Now try to snatch this pebble from my hand. Paul From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Sun Sep 22 17:30:55 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 16:30:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing In-Reply-To: <3D8C9280.1D4F2232@localnet.com> Message-ID: on 9/21/02 10:38 AM, Helen Ruggieri at hruggier at localnet.com wrote: > This is not about Billy Collins but about a tendency of reviewers to > want more than what is. Collins is being attacked for doing what he > does. He is not going to turn around and write "The Wasteland," it's > not his thing. > > Brian Henry writing in last week's NY Times Book Review does the same > thing in reviewing Mona Van Duyn's Selected Poems. In the last > paragraph he says, "Although the book highlights her memorable poems, it > is unlikely to enhance her reputation, because her poetry's modesty of > demeanor is frequently matched by its modest of achievement. > > Other comments, "practicing a tired formalism," "less pressing reasons > to write," and "genial ways to pass the time." > > The reviewer wants "incendiary" and isn't happy with the domestic. > > To jump from these two specifics to a general is risky, but it seems we > not only hold poets responsible for doing what they do, but for what we > think they should do. > > I write about what I have to write, what comes my way, what comes to > me. That's not going to change because language poetry is hot, or I > think I should write some great lyric about 9/11. It's like blaming > poets for being who they are, for being middle class or working class or > being extroverted or introverted.. > > I don't necessarily want to argue this - but to discuss this part of the > creative process. We write what we are. Modest person, modest > aspirations. Inflated ego/vast aspirations - Pound's Cantos. Should > only suicides and madmen be praised for their intensity? > > H > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > I much prefer Van Duyn's modest but compact and exacting poems to Collins' blowsy musings. I shouldn't let his overblown reputation the equation, but sometimes the discrepancy between his modest poetic achievements and best-selling, laureate fame do almost beg for comment. Paul Lake From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Sun Sep 22 17:37:01 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 16:37:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Morning as Billy Collins In-Reply-To: <200209221800.g8MI05T21589@mx12.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: on 9/22/02 1:01 PM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote: > My Morning as Billy Collins > > As I pad in my sleep-rumpled robe > toward the coffee maker this morning, > I am so fresh from dream, > with its earnest dogs talking about John Ruskin > and cotton candy saxophones floating like sweet clouds > above the sleeping house, > > I am absolutely unsurprised to hear, > from the sun-glossy pages of a *New Yorker* > spread on the kitchen table, tiny cries > of yearning and appeal. > > The magazine lying open, as it happens, > to a page of Bahamian beaches, > naturally the tiny woman there > calls to me, as on the facing page > her sad sister wanders the lobby of a Swiss hotel > in blue evening gown, in search of someone > very much, I choose to think, like me. > > And so--why not?--I let myself tumble down > into that brilliance and clarity, > away from my stolid toaster, my neat placemat, > slipping just a bit as I place my sockfeet > on the dangerously glossy surface of things. > > But soon I gain my sea legs, and then can feel > the gentle swell lift our yacht toward the sun, > and either that woman in her gleaming skin > grows larger, or else I shrink > as I glide forward to embrace her > near the mahogany of the cabin door, > > and there we stand in our sea-scented moment > with nothing but the faint > yet not unpleasant odor of a perfume ad > bleeding from the next page > to distract us from our single-minded gaze > over the still-blue horizon of possibility. > > ======================================== > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ======================================= > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > A dead-on, wonderful parody. Perfect impersonation, except that your wordplay's a little too good for Collins. Paul Lake From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Sun Sep 22 19:40:48 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 18:40:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Morning as Billy Collins In-Reply-To: <200209221800.g8MI05T21589@mx12.mx.voyager.net> References: <200209221800.g8MI05T21589@mx12.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: David: A wonderful pastiche! I dub thee the Tim Conway of poetry. ellen s. -- From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Sep 23 00:30:18 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:30:18 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses References: <200209201843.g8KIhYa86369@mx11.mx.voyager.net> <3D8B77C8.8EA1E329@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <01d701c262b9$f245aec0$7b864cca@JROSS2> You know, any debate about Collins becomes repetitious after about five minutes or less. Maybe we could all just let go of the man ... please ... I'm begging you ... I can't take any more of his work, even, David ... Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 3:32 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses > My capsule review is below in the poems. - Jim > > David Graham wrote: > > > > I've been paging through the new Billy Collins collection. I'm going to go > > way out on a limb here and predict that it will alter no one's opinion of > > his work. He's not setting forth in any new directions. (And in case > > you're wondering, "The Names" is not included.) > > > > Poetry Daily will currently link you to quite a blistering demolition of > > Collins's selected poems, at Seattle Weekly: > > > > http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0238/books-lightfoot.shtml > > > > And here are a couple samples from the new book: > > > > Today > > > > If ever there were a spring day so perfect, > > so uplifted by a warm intermittent breeze > > > snoozed off right there! > > > > --Billy Collins. *Nine Horses* > > --------------------------- > > Elk River Falls > > > > is where the Elk River falls > > from a rocky and considerable height, > > turning pale with trepidation at the lip > > and felt my intelligence insulted right there! > > > > > --Billy Collins. *Nine Horses* > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Sep 23 00:37:06 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:37:06 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI References: <118.17b68438.2abd1cd5@cs.com> Message-ID: <01e301c262ba$e193bcb0$7b864cca@JROSS2> I must say that that was the biggest public wank I've ever had the (dis)pleasure of seeing displayed, and I've read some masters of verbal wankage, I can assure you. If there was one more name dropped, the floor would have been totally covered with shards of (not glass) ... let's make that lumps of buffalo chips. Poor Juliana Lacey ... Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 8:52 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI David Sheppherd: The Of [ ]of If : Juliana Lacey And The Rhetoric Of Complexity This study proposes to bring comprehension of radical momentum and energy into understanding through a discussion of what Marjorie Perloff and others have styled the ?graphically decentered field?of Juliana Lacey?s poetry. The phenomenology of looking at Lacey's work leads to a pragmatism that breaks down the conventionalist's proposal for cultural singularity in semiological discourse and presents cognition with unresolved issue and a challenge to description. In the process of the response to Lacey's work the paper demonstrates a contemplation of some perception theories proposed by scientists like Peter Medawar and writers like M. Merleau-Ponty; art historians like Heinrich Kellner and mathematicians like Kurt G?del. Whereas the mainstream conventionalist?s "context-independent ratios" are unresponsive to the intervallic irruption of acoustic elements not recuperable by monologic analysis, Lacey calls for textual heteroclites and 'dysraphism, a congenital misseaming of embryonic parts' in order to reconfigure the textual relations of autonomous parts and unforseeable wholes according to a logic of deformation, reconstitution and 'provisional limits' close to a Deleuzian rhetoric of assemblage. 'The poem enters [inters] the world', Lacey writes in The Of [ ]of If (1998), invoking a Lacanian topology, 'and each of us inside it, facing it', animated or activated by the mutual engagements and investments of texts, contexts, readers and writers. Most reader/viewers of works by Juliana Lacey are struck by the extraordinary attention she pays to the distinction between what Deleuze styles ?paralexemic units?, "noise" and the "emancipation of sound" from pedestrian functionality together with the visual complexity of her typographical collage. The history of reading the, in Gerard Genette?s formulation, "oblique physicality" of Lacey?s technologically-assisted auralities and their extrasemantic, alogical force from within discourses as various as Klaus Hartmann?s ?materialist isochronism? and Georges Bataille's "general economy", confounds antiquated notions of a phenomenological linguistic stability independent of social and historical determinants. Indeed, most reader/viewers of Lacey?s work find themselves drawn to making spatio-temporal discriminations with extraordinary accuracy. In normal reading, that is in the examples of most human subjects tested by opticians, relative position, width or size of text can achieve a hyperacuity much finer than the spacing of even the smallest foveal cones in the eyes. In Lacey?s work, microprosopopoeia (rhetorical impersonation or reanimation on the level of the smallest semantic units) is the master trope of an elliptical, maverick and scholarly intertextuality on the level of microtypography. Hyperacuity in spatio-temporal vision refers to an accuracy in judging relative position that exceeds the system's resolving power. Whereas the resolution at each fovea in humans is about 1 arc min., humans can detect positional discrepancies of as little as a few arc seconds. The fove? are the small, central areas of the retina containing the highest density of cone photoreceptors to provide high spatio-temporal resolution. This area, within the viewer/reader, is exactly that graphically decentered field in which Lacey?s work is performed. Indeed, much of the printed text of ?Shr!w Cl!t!r!s? (1999) (?shrew clitoris?), invisible to the naked eye, initiates a complex momentem of inference on the part of the viewer/reader, thereby engaging her in the mode of poetic production to the point where she replaces the function of monocentric ?authorship?. Heinrich Kellner has termed this practice "radical momentum". Contemporary with such ability in human vision are the misconceptions of prevalent culture that disregards the constructions which precede the process and production of perception. Put more lightly, it might be said that perception is mediated by what the perceiver knows, by memory and experience. In more explicit terms, perception includes the process of constructing and producing, not of what is being looked at, but of what is seen. Producing Juliana Lacey's two-dimensional works for spatio-temporal information as part of the process of viewing, the eyes may make discrete samplings along the length of lines comprising what is being looked at, at times it is as if the eyes were following an indiscernible structure. On the one hand, this process has a relatively small impact on the accuracy of spatio-temporal discriminations, presumably because the foveae have little intrinsic positional uncertainty between marked and unmarked parts of the surface. On the other hand, Lacey's performed poems, particulary in her 1997 B!ll!ck performance at the Giraffe Cloud gallery in Los Angeles, are non-Aristotelian; that is they deliberately include facture derived from the peripheral and unfocussed vision that leaves fragments of erasure extant, and this is coterminous with the silences and subaudial noise in her technologically assisted vocalizations and ?body noise?. Non-Aristotelian refers to Alfred Korzybski's idea of order. Its complexity (in 1941) involved fifty-two orientations recognised as different from the antique Aristotelian system which had been perpetuated until the middle nineteenth century and later Modernist period. Examples of non-Aristotelian orientations include asymmetrical relations for evaluation; electronic processes; infinite-valued flexibility; empirical non-identity; dynamic relativism; empirical four dimensional spacetime; sub-microscopic levels; non-Euclidian systems; Einsteinian systems; psychosomatic integration; and elimination of verbal paradox. Korzybski's aligns this set of orientations with Roman Jakobson's relativistic model of language functions, which sees reference as a non-central function of language with inherent form . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Sep 23 00:38:14 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:38:14 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI References: <118.17b68438.2abd1cd5@cs.com> <3D8BC68A.EF86878@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <01f901c262bb$4029c1c0$7b864cca@JROSS2> The back passage, obviously. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FYI So, Sam, where do you fit in in all this? - Jim Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > David Sheppherd: > > The Of [ ]of If : Juliana Lacey And The Rhetoric Of Complexity > > This study proposes to bring comprehension of radical momentum and > energy into understanding through a discussion of what Marjorie > Perloff and > others have styled the 3graphically decentered field2of Juliana > Lacey1s > poetry. The phenomenology of looking at Lacey's work leads to a > pragmatism > that breaks down the conventionalist's proposal for cultural > singularity in > semiological discourse and presents cognition with unresolved issue > and a > challenge to description. In the process of the response to Lacey's > work the > paper demonstrates a contemplation of some perception theories > proposed by > scientists like Peter Medawar and writers like M. Merleau-Ponty; art > historians like Heinrich Kellner and mathematicians like Kurt G?del. > Whereas > the mainstream conventionalist1s "context-independent ratios" are > unresponsive to the intervallic irruption of acoustic elements not > recuperable by monologic analysis, Lacey calls for textual > heteroclites and > 'dysraphism, a congenital misseaming of embryonic parts' in order to > reconfigure the textual relations of autonomous parts and unforseeable > wholes according to a logic of deformation, reconstitution and > 'provisional > limits' close to a Deleuzian rhetoric of assemblage. 'The poem enters > [inters] the world', Lacey writes in The Of [ ]of If (1998), invoking > a > Lacanian topology, 'and each of us inside it, facing it', animated or > activated by the mutual engagements and investments of texts, > contexts, > readers and writers. Most reader/viewers of works by Juliana Lacey are > struck by the extraordinary attention she pays to the distinction > between > what Deleuze styles 3paralexemic units2, "noise" and the "emancipation > of > sound" from pedestrian functionality together with the visual > complexity of > her typographical collage. The history of reading the, in Gerard > Genette1s > formulation, "oblique physicality" of Lacey1s technologically-assisted > auralities and their extrasemantic, alogical force from within > discourses as > various as Klaus Hartmann1s 3materialist isochronism2 and Georges > Bataille's > "general economy", confounds antiquated notions of a phenomenological > linguistic stability independent of social and historical > determinants. > Indeed, most reader/viewers of Lacey1s work find themselves drawn to > making > spatio-temporal discriminations with extraordinary accuracy. In normal > reading, that is in the examples of most human subjects tested by > opticians, > relative position, width or size of text can achieve a hyperacuity > much > finer than the spacing of even the smallest foveal cones in the eyes. > In > Lacey1s work, microprosopopoeia (rhetorical impersonation or > reanimation on > the level of the smallest semantic units) is the master trope of an > elliptical, maverick and scholarly intertextuality on the level of > microtypography. Hyperacuity in spatio-temporal vision refers to an > accuracy in judging relative position that exceeds the system's > resolving > power. Whereas the resolution at each fovea in humans is about 1 arc > min., > humans can detect positional discrepancies of as little as a few arc > seconds. The fove? are the small, central areas of the retina > containing the > highest density of cone photoreceptors to provide high spatio-temporal > resolution. This area, within the viewer/reader, is exactly that > graphically > decentered field in which Lacey1s work is performed. Indeed, much of > the > printed text of 3Shr!w Cl!t!r!s2 (1999) (3shrew clitoris2), invisible > to the > naked eye, initiates a complex momentem of inference on the part of > the > viewer/reader, thereby engaging her in the mode of poetic production > to the > point where she replaces the function of monocentric 3authorship2. > Heinrich > Kellner has termed this practice "radical momentum". > > Contemporary with such ability in human vision are the misconceptions > of > prevalent culture that disregards the constructions which precede the > process and production of perception. Put more lightly, it might be > said > that perception is mediated by what the perceiver knows, by memory and > experience. In more explicit terms, perception includes the process of > constructing and producing, not of what is being looked at, but of > what is > seen. Producing Juliana Lacey's two-dimensional works for > spatio-temporal > information as part of the process of viewing, the eyes may make > discrete > samplings along the length of lines comprising what is being looked > at, at > times it is as if the eyes were following an indiscernible structure. > On the > one hand, this process has a relatively small impact on the accuracy > of > spatio-temporal discriminations, presumably because the foveae have > little > intrinsic positional uncertainty between marked and unmarked parts of > the > surface. On the other hand, Lacey's performed poems, particulary in > her 1997 > B!ll!ck performance at the Giraffe Cloud gallery in Los Angeles, are > non-Aristotelian; that is they deliberately include facture derived > from the > peripheral and unfocussed vision that leaves fragments of erasure > extant, > and this is coterminous with the silences and subaudial noise in her > technologically assisted vocalizations and 3body noise2. > > Non-Aristotelian refers to Alfred Korzybski's idea of order. Its > complexity > (in 1941) involved fifty-two orientations recognised as different from > the > antique Aristotelian system which had been perpetuated until the > middle > nineteenth century and later Modernist period. Examples of > non-Aristotelian > orientations include asymmetrical relations for evaluation; electronic > processes; infinite-valued flexibility; empirical non-identity; > dynamic > relativism; empirical four dimensional spacetime; sub-microscopic > levels; > non-Euclidian systems; Einsteinian systems; psychosomatic integration; > and > elimination of verbal paradox. Korzybski's aligns this set of > orientations > with Roman Jakobson's relativistic model of language functions, which > sees > reference as a non-central function of language with inherent form . _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Sep 23 00:48:03 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:48:03 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing References: <3D8C9280.1D4F2232@localnet.com> Message-ID: <024201c262bc$68b91950$7b864cca@JROSS2> Here, here, Helen!! Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen Ruggieri" To: Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 11:38 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing > This is not about Billy Collins but about a tendency of reviewers to > want more than what is. Collins is being attacked for doing what he > does. He is not going to turn around and write "The Wasteland," it's > not his thing. > > Brian Henry writing in last week's NY Times Book Review does the same > thing in reviewing Mona Van Duyn's Selected Poems. In the last > paragraph he says, "Although the book highlights her memorable poems, it > is unlikely to enhance her reputation, because her poetry's modesty of > demeanor is frequently matched by its modest of achievement. > > Other comments, "practicing a tired formalism," "less pressing reasons > to write," and "genial ways to pass the time." > > The reviewer wants "incendiary" and isn't happy with the domestic. > > To jump from these two specifics to a general is risky, but it seems we > not only hold poets responsible for doing what they do, but for what we > think they should do. > > I write about what I have to write, what comes my way, what comes to > me. That's not going to change because language poetry is hot, or I > think I should write some great lyric about 9/11. It's like blaming > poets for being who they are, for being middle class or working class or > being extroverted or introverted.. > > I don't necessarily want to argue this - but to discuss this part of the > creative process. We write what we are. Modest person, modest > aspirations. Inflated ego/vast aspirations - Pound's Cantos. Should > only suicides and madmen be praised for their intensity? > > H > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Sep 23 00:54:46 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:54:46 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing References: Message-ID: <025601c262bd$58c19da0$7b864cca@JROSS2> See, I'd have to disagree with you there, Chryss. The people who appointed him PL chose someone THEY could relate, and figured a vast majority could, as well. On that basis, he does a creditable job. He may not be our cup of tea, so to speak, but then our expectations are higher as far as what we would like, n'est pas? As to having Mr. Rogers as president, we might be better off if he were. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chryss Yost" To: Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 12:43 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing > Helen, > This is a great distinction. Let's not blame Collins for being Collins. > As you say, he does what he does, and I think he does it well for the most > part. > My complaint is with the forces that appointed Collins to be our poet > laureate. That is NOT what he does, and he will continue to disappoint most > of our expectations for what a poet laureate should be. > Electing Collins to be poet laureate was like electing Mr. Rogers to be > president. Not a bad guy, simply a poor fit. > C. > > > From: Helen Ruggieri > > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 11:38:40 -0400 > > To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing > > > > This is not about Billy Collins but about a tendency of reviewers to > > want more than what is. Collins is being attacked for doing what he > > does. He is not going to turn around and write "The Wasteland," it's > > not his thing. > > > > Brian Henry writing in last week's NY Times Book Review does the same > > thing in reviewing Mona Van Duyn's Selected Poems. In the last > > paragraph he says, "Although the book highlights her memorable poems, it > > is unlikely to enhance her reputation, because her poetry's modesty of > > demeanor is frequently matched by its modest of achievement. > > > > Other comments, "practicing a tired formalism," "less pressing reasons > > to write," and "genial ways to pass the time." > > > > The reviewer wants "incendiary" and isn't happy with the domestic. > > > > To jump from these two specifics to a general is risky, but it seems we > > not only hold poets responsible for doing what they do, but for what we > > think they should do. > > > > I write about what I have to write, what comes my way, what comes to > > me. That's not going to change because language poetry is hot, or I > > think I should write some great lyric about 9/11. It's like blaming > > poets for being who they are, for being middle class or working class or > > being extroverted or introverted.. > > > > I don't necessarily want to argue this - but to discuss this part of the > > creative process. We write what we are. Modest person, modest > > aspirations. Inflated ego/vast aspirations - Pound's Cantos. Should > > only suicides and madmen be praised for their intensity? > > > > H > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Sep 23 01:12:15 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:12:15 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing References: Message-ID: <02b801c262bf$ca3790f0$7b864cca@JROSS2> Again, who gets to decide what's "perfect" ... and for whom? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chryss Yost" To: Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing > If Collins were the perfect PL, then everyone in the country would know: (1) > that we have a poet laureate, (2) that poetry is alive and well in this > country, and (3) why they should care. > Under the job description you list below, Collins is less successful than > Pinksy. > Seems to me that Collins is a comfy, cozy PL, but that's different than a > perfect PL. > C. > > > From: JforJames at aol.com > > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:14:15 EDT > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing > > > > In a message dated 9/21/02 12:46:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > chryss at silcom.com writes: > > > >> My complaint is with the forces that appointed Collins to be our poet > >> laureate. That is NOT what he does, and he will continue to disappoint most > >> of our expectations for what a poet laureate should be. > >> Electing Collins to be poet laureate was like electing Mr. Rogers to be > >> president. Not a bad guy, simply a poor fit. > > Chryss, it seems to me Collins is perfect for the job. The honor and the > > job being diffferent matters. If the honor is meant to go to the finest poet > > of our times (stop & think here that Britian's poet laureate, and the > > English have a much longer history behind this honor, is Andrew Motion)... > > then Collins comes up short. But if the job is emissary for poetry, to be > > given > > to a poet blessed with a gift for promoting poetry as a vital & lively art, > > an art capable of speaking to the general public (not talking over people's > > heads or mumbling under its breath so that they can't hear) then Collins is > > the man/poet for the job. > > Finnegan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Sep 23 03:35:47 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 03:35:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses References: <200209201843.g8KIhYa86369@mx11.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <000d01c262d3$d6a11e60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> David -- you may be wrong. I've always had a high regard for Collins' poetry, but the two poems that Paul posted could make me change it. I'll reserve judgment till I see the rest, though. Tad SITUATIONS pub date October 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 2:44 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses > I've been paging through the new Billy Collins collection. I'm going to go > way out on a limb here and predict that it will alter no one's opinion of > his work. He's not setting forth in any new directions. (And in case > you're wondering, "The Names" is not included.) > > Poetry Daily will currently link you to quite a blistering demolition of > Collins's selected poems, at Seattle Weekly: > > http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0238/books-lightfoot.shtml > > And here are a couple samples from the new book: > > > Today > > If ever there were a spring day so perfect, > so uplifted by a warm intermittent breeze > > that it made you want to throw > open all the windows in the house > > and unlatch the door to the canary's cage, > indeed, rip the little door from its jamb, > > a day when the cool brick paths > and the garden bursting with peonies > > seemed so etched in sunlight > that you felt like taking > > a hammer to the glass paperweight > on the living room end table, > > releasing the inhabitants > from their snow-covered cottage > > so they could walk out, > holding hands and squinting > > into this larger dome of blue and white, > well, today is just that kind of day. > > --Billy Collins. *Nine Horses* > --------------------------- > Elk River Falls > > > is where the Elk River falls > from a rocky and considerable height, > turning pale with trepidation at the lip > (it seemed from where I stood below) > before it is unbuckled from itself > and plummets, shredded, through the air > into the shadows of a frigid pool, > so calm around the edges, a place > for water to recover from the shock > of falling apart and coming back together > before it picks up its song again, > goes sliding around the massive rocks > and past some islands overgrown with weeds > then flattens out and slips around a bend > and continues on its winding course, > according to this camper's guide, > then joins the Clearwater at its northern fork, > which must in time find the sea > where this and every other stream > mistakes the monster for itself, > sings its name one final time > then feels the sudden sting of salt. > > --Billy Collins. *Nine Horses* > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > "We're writing the book on quality, personal, > undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ======================================= > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Sep 23 11:24:12 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:24:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EF5@mail.ripon.edu> Tad, if you're referring to the poems I posted ("Elk River Falls" and "Today"), I would have to agree that they're not top-notch Billy. Just what I happened to have handy. A better one, I think, on today's Poetry Daily. Though I don't suppose *it* will change anyone's mind, particularly. I'm guessing that one of the problems of recent discussion, in addition to basic aesthetic differences and the politics of laureateship, is the fact that Collins has long since found a very recognizable style, and doesn't vary it much. (One reason I found it relatively easy to imitate him with my poem, which I consider half parody, half homage.) Though the same could be said for a number of canonical greats, people do get weary, book after book, seeing the same moves made. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality, personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: theoldmole > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 2:35 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses > > David -- you may be wrong. I've always had a high regard for Collins' > poetry, but the two poems that Paul posted could make me change it. I'll > reserve judgment till I see the rest, though. > > Tad > > > I've been paging through the new Billy Collins collection. I'm going to > go > > way out on a limb here and predict that it will alter no one's opinion > of > > his work. > From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Sep 23 12:33:37 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:33:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EF5@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <004101c2631e$f8861260$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> David -- you're right...I do like "Bermuda." I believe we should judge writers by their best work. It is so f***ing hard to write anything really good. If someone has done it even once -- and certainly more than once -- that person should be forgiven everything else she/he ever creates. If, as you suggest, Collins is remembered as our generation's Housman, it'll mostly be, like most other poets who are remembered, for half a dozen or so poems. Fame can sap creativity. Perhaps it inevitably does. It must be incredibly difficult to withstand the temptation to write toward what you've been acclaimed for. And, I suspect, writing away from it is much the same. I've had precious little acclaim in my career, and sometimes I think (perhaps wishful thinking) that it's kept me supple and inventive. But when my first book came out, I got this generous appraisal from Donald Finkel for the back cover: "...disturbingly familiar and unsettlingly memorable - particularly the women, lithe and button-breasted or forty with stretchmarks or old and bony, wise and tolerant or buoyant..." And I did go through a period where, when I was stuck in a poem, a little voice of temptation would whisper, "Hey, why don't you throw in one of those unsettlingly memorable women you're so good at?" SITUATIONS pub date August 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham, David" To: Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 11:24 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses > Tad, if you're referring to the poems I posted ("Elk River Falls" and > "Today"), I would have to agree that they're not top-notch Billy. Just what > I happened to have handy. > > A better one, I think, on today's Poetry Daily. Though I don't suppose *it* > will change anyone's mind, particularly. > > I'm guessing that one of the problems of recent discussion, in addition to > basic aesthetic differences and the politics of laureateship, is the fact > that Collins has long since found a very recognizable style, and doesn't > vary it much. (One reason I found it relatively easy to imitate him with my > poem, which I consider half parody, half homage.) > > Though the same could be said for a number of canonical greats, people do > get weary, book after book, seeing the same moves made. > > ============================================ > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > "We're writing the book on quality, personal, > undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > > ---------- > > From: theoldmole > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 2:35 AM > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses > > > > David -- you may be wrong. I've always had a high regard for Collins' > > poetry, but the two poems that Paul posted could make me change it. I'll > > reserve judgment till I see the rest, though. > > > > Tad > > > > > I've been paging through the new Billy Collins collection. I'm going to > > go > > > way out on a limb here and predict that it will alter no one's opinion > > of > > > his work. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Sep 23 12:40:21 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:40:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EF5@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <004501c2631f$e91504c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> While we're tossing out Collins pastiches...this doesn't exactly qualify, but... An inspiration jumpstarter which I learned from Patti Marshock, and have used from time to time with some success, involves taking a piece of writing, running it back and forth a few times through a language translator, "collaging" the result (isolating phrases that have some resonance), and then using those collaged phrases as the basis for a poem. This came from a Collins poem. I don't think newpo recognizes typography, so...the last stanza is indented and italicized. LIFE SUPPORT The author on life support he's dropped his mouse no more free cable frayed speaker wires instant message fried Napster shut down hard drive in the shop rise from your bed of electric and come not too late at the window light like running color SITUATIONS pub date October 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham, David" To: Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 11:24 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses > Tad, if you're referring to the poems I posted ("Elk River Falls" and > "Today"), I would have to agree that they're not top-notch Billy. Just what > I happened to have handy. > > A better one, I think, on today's Poetry Daily. Though I don't suppose *it* > will change anyone's mind, particularly. > > I'm guessing that one of the problems of recent discussion, in addition to > basic aesthetic differences and the politics of laureateship, is the fact > that Collins has long since found a very recognizable style, and doesn't > vary it much. (One reason I found it relatively easy to imitate him with my > poem, which I consider half parody, half homage.) > > Though the same could be said for a number of canonical greats, people do > get weary, book after book, seeing the same moves made. > > ============================================ > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > "We're writing the book on quality, personal, > undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > > ---------- > > From: theoldmole > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 2:35 AM > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses > > > > David -- you may be wrong. I've always had a high regard for Collins' > > poetry, but the two poems that Paul posted could make me change it. I'll > > reserve judgment till I see the rest, though. > > > > Tad > > > > > I've been paging through the new Billy Collins collection. I'm going to > > go > > > way out on a limb here and predict that it will alter no one's opinion > > of > > > his work. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jstolzenberg at snet.net Mon Sep 23 12:35:42 2002 From: jstolzenberg at snet.net (jstolzenberg) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:35:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: "Today" by BC Message-ID: <002d01c2631f$42581500$553ffea9@y9fru> Today I read "Today" If ever there were a poem so very, uplifted by vacuous blasts of warm breeziness that it made you want to throw up, open all the windows in the house and unlatch the door to the canary's cage, indeed, rip the little bird from its perch, a poem that when the thought of another hackneyed image, threadbare line seemed so inevitably unavoidable like rain on a cloudy day that you felt like taking a hammer to the page, the whole damn book, smash it hard again, again, thus releasing the inhabitants -- letters, words and punctuation -- from their good-natured keeper so they could walk out, holding hands and squinting into this larger book of life... well, that poem is just that kind of poem, Billy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Mon Sep 23 13:23:15 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:23:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Morning as Billy Collins In-Reply-To: <200209221800.g8MI05T21589@mx12.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020923122055.00b75b38@mail.ilstu.edu> Bravo, David! At 01:01 PM 9/22/2002 -0500, you wrote: >My Morning as Billy Collins > >As I pad in my sleep-rumpled robe >toward the coffee maker this morning, >I am so fresh from dream, >with its earnest dogs talking about John Ruskin >and cotton candy saxophones floating like sweet clouds >above the sleeping house, > >I am absolutely unsurprised to hear, >from the sun-glossy pages of a *New Yorker* >spread on the kitchen table, tiny cries >of yearning and appeal. > >The magazine lying open, as it happens, >to a page of Bahamian beaches, >naturally the tiny woman there >calls to me, as on the facing page >her sad sister wanders the lobby of a Swiss hotel >in blue evening gown, in search of someone >very much, I choose to think, like me. > >And so--why not?--I let myself tumble down >into that brilliance and clarity, >away from my stolid toaster, my neat placemat, >slipping just a bit as I place my sockfeet >on the dangerously glossy surface of things. > >But soon I gain my sea legs, and then can feel >the gentle swell lift our yacht toward the sun, >and either that woman in her gleaming skin >grows larger, or else I shrink >as I glide forward to embrace her >near the mahogany of the cabin door, > >and there we stand in our sea-scented moment >with nothing but the faint >yet not unpleasant odor of a perfume ad >bleeding from the next page >to distract us from our single-minded gaze >over the still-blue horizon of possibility. > >======================================== >David Graham >Professor of English, Ripon College >grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, >undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu >======================================= > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Mon Sep 23 14:00:24 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:00:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Sebald (prose poems) & Collins (9 Horses) in USATODAY Message-ID: <15e.14570ae7.2ac0b0b8@aol.com> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20020912/en_bo_usatoda y/4441403 From jstolzenberg at snet.net Mon Sep 23 14:53:14 2002 From: jstolzenberg at snet.net (jstolzenberg) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:53:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Collins Message-ID: <00be01c26332$790e7360$553ffea9@y9fru> Though I parody his work, I like the man and have enjoyed hearing him read. Many people who have never bought poetry books are buying his and reading them -- his poem a day idea in schools is a good one. One thing about Collins is that the nature of his work makes him such an easy and fun target and his being both financially successful (for a poet) and being honored to be Poet Laureate (X2) drives lots of folks wild -- which is pretty funny in and of itself and jealousy energizes at least some of the anti-Billy commotion. Has anybody tried to somewhat "objectively" (or even subjectively) gauge the effectiveness of poet laureates re: popularizing poetry reading, writing, awareness .... other than a couple of people's opinions? My guess is that Collins would end up as being as successful as anyone else, or more so. There are lots of ways to measure things. J Stolzenberg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier at localnet.com Mon Sep 23 15:38:48 2002 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:38:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing References: <200209211711.g8LHB8i07981@mx7.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3D8F6DC8.ACF5C884@localnet.com> Seriously, I liked your parody, but in the opening line - do you sleep in a robe? Serious folks like Rex Reed wanna know. h David Graham wrote: > I'm not too interested at the moment in defending Billy Collins, whose work > I like more than many do. I appreciate Paul Lake's close look at his work, > and attempt to analyze its character and limitations. Longer term, I've > been thinking half-heartedly of writing an essay called "Two and a Half > Cheers for Billy Collins," in which I would try to explain why, despite some > obvious limitations of range and sensibility, Collins is nonetheless for me > a welcome feature of the poetic landscape. And too often dismissed for not > being Yeats, as it were. > > I do think this broader discussion is worth having, in any case. Seems to > get at one of the perennial challenges of critical response: how to fairly > assess "minor" poetry without ignoring its limitations or making unduly > large claims for it. Prediction is foolish, I know, but I have a feeling > that Collins may be our era's A. E. Housman, and if so, that's a pretty > wonderful thing to be. > > Years ago I published an essay on Robert Francis that grappled a bit with > this issue--how to evaluate his work without merely noting that he's not as > great as Robert Frost. Well, he is and he isn't, I'd say. Reading > Collins's new book I did find myself thinking now and then of Francis, as it > happened. (In any case, my Francis essay is online at my poetry library, if > anyone's curious: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/grahamd/FRANCIS.html) > > ======================================== > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > "We're writing the book on quality, personal, > undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ======================================= > > ---------- > >From: Helen Ruggieri > >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing > >Date: Sat, Sep 21, 2002, 10:38 AM > > > > >This is not about Billy Collins but about a tendency of reviewers to > >want more than what is. Collins is being attacked for doing what he > >does. He is not going to turn around and write "The Wasteland," it's > >not his thing. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Sep 23 15:28:49 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:28:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EF8@mail.ripon.edu> Helen, of course I don't sleep in my robe. Billy Collins does, though--it's his official laureate's mantle, actually, but in keeping with his folksy persona, I called it a robe. Glad to clarify. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: Helen Ruggieri > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 2:38 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Laureate bashing > > Seriously, I liked your parody, but in the opening line - do you sleep in > a > robe? Serious folks like Rex Reed wanna know. > > h > From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Sep 23 16:06:04 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:06:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others" Goran Sonnevi, "Words Have No Limits" Message-ID: Words have no limits, thus they are no longer words The sea no longer the sea love no longer love There's something else between us so we don't exist We are others We are strange mirrors We are changes in nature, mysterious Will anything grow from our earth? The boundless sea grows How can we measure it? We cannot It's inside the inner balance of our bodies forever disturbed The dance has no end In one hand the sky, in the other the earth Does the sea grow between us until it finally disappears? I don't know Sometimes it has retreated concealed itself Nothing is constant Neither is this absence constant Words alone are constants You're in my stomach now, am I in yours? And rising again, like a plant, a coil from the darkness of my throat Incalculably, beyond numbers, words And the order born of this can't be seen can't be felt Have you no meaning, without limits? No! There is that which is, also as if without limits as if without love as if without sea Can I escape this? No! Do I want to? No! What is the light that breaks from your cliff's brow from your sea's mirror? I divide your mirror I divide your sea I touch your inmost transparency, your innermost time Where you are nothing but time And I split into every color in the spectrum before the blinding whiteness comes Now I can take no more! Now it is over There is no end And, from within, your hand touches me although this is impossible In my body your mountain grows blindingly I go over your mountain G?ran Sonnevi [This is the only Englished poem of Sonnevi's I've managed to find online. I have no idea who committed the translation. Sonnevi is a Swedish poet born in '39.] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Mon Sep 23 18:52:05 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:52:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lesson of Lenny Message-ID: <3f.120f24b6.2ac0f515@aol.com> The Lesson of Lenny America, you big lumbering oaf, too stupid for your own good. You eat too much, you take up too much space. You?re dumb as shit, you break the backs of the things you love But, America, you must always be a Lenny. Let yourself be pushed, falling back on your heels, beaten about the face. Let him break your nose, the blood pouring from the right nostril to fill the corner of a smile, as still you try to make friends. In tears. let the full fury of those blows tear into you. Trust that somewhere, something in the back of your brain, an old knot of nerves, will, without thinking, rear up, and in the right instant you?ll reach out with that big friendly paw, the one that mistakenly killed your own pet mouse, to grasp Curly?s fist, hard, making of it a mush of splintered bone. America, crush not what you can, but what you must. From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Tue Sep 24 00:58:37 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:58:37 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EF5@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <003a01c26387$0cd89310$7d864cca@JROSS2> Of course, I think many people take a great deal of comfort from same -- they know what they're getting when they buy a particular author. That most of don't, get annoyed, is more like changing channels on the TV if we don't like the program on offer: don't read the author. By the way, David -- your 'parody' was just lovely as a work of art of its own. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham, David" To: Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 11:24 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses > Tad, if you're referring to the poems I posted ("Elk River Falls" and > "Today"), I would have to agree that they're not top-notch Billy. Just what > I happened to have handy. > > A better one, I think, on today's Poetry Daily. Though I don't suppose *it* > will change anyone's mind, particularly. > > I'm guessing that one of the problems of recent discussion, in addition to > basic aesthetic differences and the politics of laureateship, is the fact > that Collins has long since found a very recognizable style, and doesn't > vary it much. (One reason I found it relatively easy to imitate him with my > poem, which I consider half parody, half homage.) > > Though the same could be said for a number of canonical greats, people do > get weary, book after book, seeing the same moves made. > > ============================================ > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > "We're writing the book on quality, personal, > undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > > ---------- > > From: theoldmole > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 2:35 AM > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses > > > > David -- you may be wrong. I've always had a high regard for Collins' > > poetry, but the two poems that Paul posted could make me change it. I'll > > reserve judgment till I see the rest, though. > > > > Tad > > > > > I've been paging through the new Billy Collins collection. I'm going to > > go > > > way out on a limb here and predict that it will alter no one's opinion > > of > > > his work. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ron.silliman at verizon.net Tue Sep 24 05:47:38 2002 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 05:47:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] On the Blog In-Reply-To: <200209240500.g8O504605952@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000001c263af$6f0461e0$8d42c143@Dell> Recently on the blog: * The World in Time and Space, Ed Foster & Joe Donahue's giant new anthology of contemporary poetics * Reading Ted Berrigan's "Bean Spasms" * Two readings in one night: Dale Smith & Hoa Nguyen, Joan Rettallack & Matt Chambers * Influence & time in the two traditions * Joseph Massey's Minima Street * Poetry & intermedia: The Envelope, Please, by Swifty Lazarus * Writing & public mourning: Allen Curnow & Jack Spicer * The Olsonian impulse in the poetry of Eleni Sikelianos * Juliana Spahr responds: on Chain * The progressive tradition in the 1940s http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From Poemlady at cox.net Tue Sep 24 07:02:16 2002 From: Poemlady at cox.net (Poemlady) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:02:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EF5@mail.ripon.edu> <004501c2631f$e91504c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <003501c263b9$d8df2f00$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> And Tad shared this strategy at a Connecticut Poetry Festival last year, and I have since played with words in a similar way. I made a list of Collins's titles, ran them through Babelfish's translater, and thus this poem was born: Self-Defense I practice drowning in case I slip through the tyings of the night and discover it's true that dreams are made of nothing but absurdity Audrey Friedman > > An inspiration jumpstarter which I learned from Patti Marshock, and have > used from time to time with some success, involves taking a piece of > writing, running it back and forth a few times through a language > translator, "collaging" the result (isolating phrases that have some > resonance), and then using those collaged phrases as the basis for a poem. From JforJames at aol.com Tue Sep 24 10:15:42 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:15:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses Message-ID: <14d.148d38a5.2ac1cd8e@aol.com> In a message dated 9/23/02 12:31:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > I believe we should judge writers by their best work. It is so f***ing hard > to write anything really good. If someone has done it even once -- and > certainly more than once -- that person should be forgiven everything else > she/he ever creates. > Tad, I was at Yale last Friday for Bollingen Prize celebration. They had two panels/broad topics: The American Tradition & THe Craft of Poetry. In the second panel this question came up: Who were the neglected poets; who should be read more? The responses were these: W.S. Merwin: David Jones, he suggested starting with the later work, the fragments, and moving backwards through his poetry. Richard Wilbur: Recounted Bishop's favorably quoting a poem by Walter Savage Landor, stating she wished she could have written those lines. Wilbur then recited a few lines."Past Ruined Ilion Helen lives, Alcestis rises from the shades; Verse calls them forth; 'tis verse that gives Immortal youth to mortal maids." John Hollander: Recommended May Swenson, and said she should have a critical edition of her work. That she was due for some rediscovery. Gary Snyder: Said Rexroth's work deserves to be read more; esp. some the philosophical pieces. He thought some of the neglect came out Rexroth's often savage reviews, which had resulted in a certain amount resentment toward him lingering on after his death. J.D. McLatchy, who served as moderator, chimed in that Williams spoke of the fact that We read poems not poets. And that even those poet whose oeuvre may not have been the stuff of a major poet, had certain poems within their bodies of work that were well worth perserviing and keeping alive in the canon. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Tue Sep 24 11:13:37 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:13:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Lennie again Message-ID: <124.17318551.2ac1db21@aol.com> It should have been Lennie, I realized only later last evening. Also, reading it to several rather literate people, I found that only one person recognized it as characters/vignette from Steinbeck. So I changed it somewhat... and put in the apostrophes that got lost somehow during the cut&paste... The Lesson of Steinbeck's Lennie America, you big stumbling lug, too strong and lumbering for your own good. You eat too much, you take up too much space. Dumb as dirt, you break the backs of the things you love. But, America, you must always be a Lennie. Must let yourself be pushed, fall back on your heels, get beaten about the face. Let Curley break your nose, blood pouring from the left nostril to fill the corner of a smile, as still you try to make friends. Though in tears, allow the fury of his blows to tear into you. Trust that some place in the back of your skull there will be the crack of a lash of nerves, without malice, in an instant of pure instinct, causing your arm to reach out with that huge paw of yours, the same hand that mistakenly killed your own pet mouse, to grasp Curley's fist, hard, making of it a mush of splintered bone. America, crush not what you can, but what you must. From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 11:15:51 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets In-Reply-To: <14d.148d38a5.2ac1cd8e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020924151551.30699.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Jim raises an interesting question. Who are the neglected poets? Or, I guess a better question would be who are the poets outside the limelight whom no one reads and perhaps who we as readers of poetry should pay more attention to? As an academic (I realize the implications), I know that my exposure to poetry has largely been cannonical. However, I have made a conscious effort to read poets never mentioned in any of my classes: Robinson Jeffers is a prime example. But, even Jeffers is a "big poet," so to speak. I wonder who I'm missing--I know there's a lot out there. But, I wonder how much responsibility I have to read these poets?--there, I've revised my question again. I guess one of my problems is that I want to like everything that I read. I hate to dismiss a poet as trivial or as not worth my time, so I spend so much time trying to find out more and more and to read more and more. It's maddening. But, then again, I suppose poetry is maddening in and of itself. Jeff Newberry JforJames at aol.com wrote:In a message dated 9/23/02 12:31:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > I believe we should judge writers by their best work. It is so f***ing hard > to write anything really good. If someone has done it even once -- and > certainly more than once -- that person should be forgiven everything else > she/he ever creates. > Tad, I was at Yale last Friday for Bollingen Prize celebration. They had two panels/broad topics: The American Tradition & THe Craft of Poetry. In the second panel this question came up: Who were the neglected poets; who should be read more? The responses were these: W.S. Merwin: David Jones, he suggested starting with the later work, the fragments, and moving backwards through his poetry. Richard Wilbur: Recounted Bishop's favorably quoting a poem by Walter Savage Landor, stating she wished she could have written those lines. Wilbur then recited a few lines."Past Ruined Ilion Helen lives, Alcestis rises from the shades; Verse calls them forth; 'tis verse that gives Immortal youth to mortal maids." John Hollander: Recommended May Swenson, and said she should have a critical edition of her work. That she was due for some rediscovery. Gary Snyder: Said Rexroth's work deserves to be read more; esp. some the philosophical pieces. He thought some of the neglect came out Rexroth's often savage reviews, which had resulted in a certain amount resentment toward him lingering on after his death. J.D. McLatchy, who served as moderator, chimed in that Williams spoke of the fact that We read poems not poets. And that even those poet whose oeuvre may not have been the stuff of a major poet, had certain poems within their bodies of work that were well worth perserviing and keeping alive in the canon. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Sep 24 11:50:22 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:50:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets In-Reply-To: <20020924151551.30699.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> References: <14d.148d38a5.2ac1cd8e@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020924102541.00b8d2c8@mail.ilstu.edu> <> Jeff, I don't follow this question. Who *aren't* the neglected poets, would be one far easier to answer -- wouldn't it? Byyour answer you seem to suggest that your question is "Who are the neglected white highly anthologized mostly male coastal urban poets of the mid to mid-late 20th century?" A quick answer for contemporary work: look at SPD, look at the Mellon Foundation presses, even the smaller presses: Skanky Possum, Wild Honey; then look at electronic pubs, look at places where aesthetics are not allied with but set against cultural capital. There's "neglected" and there's "invisible" and then there are those who've been "disappeared." To become a non-neglected poet, you have to first be called "emerging." Then there's the "emerging young" poet. Teh interesting poet, to me, is someone who has the ability to work both sides of the fence, being aesthetically innovative and socially contrary in a way that expands the bounds of what is utterable and imaginable. The thing that is often forgotten is that there is no rhyme or reason to why some writers are forgotten and others remembered. Who gets neglected and who remembered has nothing to do with "talent" or "genius" at all. We live, said Cezanne, in a rainbow of chaos. GAbe At 08:15 AM 9/24/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Jim raises an interesting question. Who are the neglected poets? Or, I >guess a better question would be who are the poets outside the limelight >whom no one reads and perhaps who we as readers of poetry should pay more >attention to? As an academic (I realize the implications), I know that my >exposure to poetry has largely been cannonical. However, I have made a >conscious effort to read poets never mentioned in any of my >classes: Robinson Jeffers is a prime example. But, even Jeffers is a >"big poet," so to speak. I wonder who I'm missing--I know there's a lot >out there. But, I wonder how much responsibility I have to read these >poets?--there, I've revised my question again. > >I guess one of my problems is that I want to like everything that I >read. I hate to dismiss a poet as trivial or as not worth my time, so I >spend so much time trying to find out more and more and to read more and >more. It's maddening. > >But, then again, I suppose poetry is maddening in and of itself. > >Jeff Newberry > > > > > > JforJames at aol.com wrote: >>In a message dated 9/23/02 12:31:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >>tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: >> >> > I believe we should judge writers by their best work. It is so f***ing >> hard >> > to write anything really good. If someone has done it even once -- and >> > certainly more than once -- that person should be forgiven everything else >> > she/he ever creates. >> > >>Tad, I was at Yale last Friday for Bollingen Prize celebration. They >>had two panels/broad topics: The American Tradition & THe Craft of Poetry. >>In the second panel this question came up: Who were the neglected >>poets; who should be read more? The responses were these: >>W.S. Merwin: David Jones, he suggested starting with the later work, the >>fragments, and moving backwards through his poetry. >>Richard Wilbur: Recounted Bishop's favorably quoting a poem by >>Walter Savage Landor, stating! she wished she could have written those >>lines. Wilbur then recited a few lines."Past Ruined Ilion Helen lives, >>Alcestis rises from the shades; Verse calls them forth; 'tis verse that gives >>Immortal youth to mortal maids." >>John Hollander: Recommended May Swenson, and said she should have a >>critical edition of her work. That she was due for some rediscovery. >>Gary Snyder: Said Rexroth's work deserves to be read more; esp. some >>the philosophical pieces. He thought some of the neglect came out Rexroth's >>often savage reviews, which had resulted in a certain amount resentment >>toward him lingering on after his death. >>J.D. McLatchy, who served as moderator, chimed in that Williams spoke of >>the fact that We read poems not poets. And that even those poet whose >>oeuvre may not have been the stuff of a major poet, had certain poems >>within their bodies of work that were well worth perserviing and keeping >>alive >>in the canon. >>Finnegan >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! News - Today's headlines -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Sep 24 12:01:19 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:01:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets In-Reply-To: <20020924151551.30699.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> References: <14d.148d38a5.2ac1cd8e@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020924105151.00bb7cc0@mail.ilstu.edu> And often, as you suggest, one discovers that there is a surplus, not an insufficiency, of "talent" or interesting work. The curious thing for me is that, at some point, I stopped judging poetry as an aesthetic category -- as something I could "like" -- and began to look toward whether it was useful to me as someone trying to live in a less confusing and more open-minded manner, and as a writer trying to expand the bounds of what is utterable. I moved from enjoyment to use, which maybe will suggest to you how much St. Augustine I've read in my life. The problem with judgment is that it presupposes the necessity of rarity -- and if there is a surplus of interesting work, we will create (I am convinced) arbitrary categories regarding the work that will serve as a winnnowing mechanism. Those arbitrary categories are called aesthetics -- and few readers, even poets (and especially non-adventurous minds) get past the most unsophisticated and blunt pairing of categories, "bad" and "good." And that's a serious pity, to my way of thinking. Gabe At 08:15 AM 9/24/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Jim raises an interesting question. Who are the neglected poets? Or, I >guess a better question would be who are the poets outside the limelight >whom no one reads and perhaps who we as readers of poetry should pay more >attention to? As an academic (I realize the implications), I know that my >exposure to poetry has largely been cannonical. However, I have made a >conscious effort to read poets never mentioned in any of my >classes: Robinson Jeffers is a prime example. But, even Jeffers is a >"big poet," so to speak. I wonder who I'm missing--I know there's a lot >out there. But, I wonder how much responsibility I have to read these >poets?--there, I've revised my question again. > >I guess one of my problems is that I want to like everything that I >read. I hate to dismiss a poet as trivial or as not worth my time, so I >spend so much time trying to find out more and more and to read more and >more. It's maddening. > >But, then again, I suppose poetry is maddening in and of itself. > >Jeff Newberry > > > > > > JforJames at aol.com wrote: >>In a message dated 9/23/02 12:31:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >>tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: >> >> > I believe we should judge writers by their best work. It is so f***ing >> hard >> > to write anything really good. If someone has done it even once -- and >> > certainly more than once -- that person should be forgiven everything else >> > she/he ever creates. >> > >>Tad, I was at Yale last Friday for Bollingen Prize celebration. They >>had two panels/broad topics: The American Tradition & THe Craft of Poetry. >>In the second panel this question came up: Who were the neglected >>poets; who should be read more? The responses were these: >>W.S. Merwin: David Jones, he suggested starting with the later work, the >>fragments, and moving backwards through his poetry. >>Richard Wilbur: Recounted Bishop's favorably quoting a poem by >>Walter Savage Landor, stating! she wished she could have written those >>lines. Wilbur then recited a few lines."Past Ruined Ilion Helen lives, >>Alcestis rises from the shades; Verse calls them forth; 'tis verse that gives >>Immortal youth to mortal maids." >>John Hollander: Recommended May Swenson, and said she should have a >>critical edition of her work. That she was due for some rediscovery. >>Gary Snyder: Said Rexroth's work deserves to be read more; esp. some >>the philosophical pieces. He thought some of the neglect came out Rexroth's >>often savage reviews, which had resulted in a certain amount resentment >>toward him lingering on after his death. >>J.D. McLatchy, who served as moderator, chimed in that Williams spoke of >>the fact that We read poems not poets. And that even those poet whose >>oeuvre may not have been the stuff of a major poet, had certain poems >>within their bodies of work that were well worth perserviing and keeping >>alive >>in the canon. >>Finnegan >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! News - Today's headlines -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbarone at sjc.edu Tue Sep 24 12:28:26 2002 From: dbarone at sjc.edu (Barone, Dennis) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:28:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] forgotten writers Message-ID: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249001BA182B@sjcmail.sjc.edu> A response to Jim's response. Joyce Carol Oates, Paul Auster, and someone else (I can't remember) were recently on a PEN forgotten authors panel in New York. I don't know who the other speakers spoke on, but Paul Auster spoke about Charles Reznikoff. I think that's a good, serious choice. But I also think the world is so full of great, really great unread authors that the question is ridiculous. I'm not a believer of the best rising to the top. Shit rises. At this December's MLA I'm speaking on a writer named Louis Forgione who wrote two very good novels in the 1920s. He wrote more, but two good ones. Now I think his two good novels should be republished -- that there is an audience for them and that they are good. But I remember too asking Jonathan Galassi why FSG let Christopher Isherwood (I think he qualifies as a "great" writer) go out of print and then off to Univ of Minnesota press (with these really terrible covers). I suppose I'm one of those people who believe that Shakespeare didn't write plays, but the theater wrote Shakespeare. Dennis Barone From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Sep 24 12:52:40 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:52:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] forgotten writers In-Reply-To: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249001BA182B@sjcmail.sjc.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020924114724.00bce938@mail.ilstu.edu> Dennis, Not sure if you've read it, but if not you might appreciate Tom Bissell's article in the Boston Review from a few years ago: "Unflowered Aloes: Why Literary Success is a Product of Chance, not Destiny." http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR25.2/bissell.html It's a tonic to anyone who believes talent will out. Gabe At 12:28 PM 9/24/2002 -0400, you wrote: >A response to Jim's response. Joyce Carol Oates, Paul Auster, and someone >else (I can't remember) were recently on a PEN forgotten authors panel in >New York. I don't know who the other speakers spoke on, but Paul Auster >spoke about Charles Reznikoff. I think that's a good, serious choice. But >I also think the world is so full of great, really great unread authors that >the question is ridiculous. I'm not a believer of the best rising to the >top. Shit rises. At this December's MLA I'm speaking on a writer named >Louis Forgione who wrote two very good novels in the 1920s. He wrote more, >but two good ones. Now I think his two good novels should be republished -- >that there is an audience for them and that they are good. But I remember >too asking Jonathan Galassi why FSG let Christopher Isherwood (I think he >qualifies as a "great" writer) go out of print and then off to Univ of >Minnesota press (with these really terrible covers). I suppose I'm one of >those people who believe that Shakespeare didn't write plays, but the >theater wrote Shakespeare. > >Dennis Barone >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Arielpf123 at aol.com Tue Sep 24 12:54:33 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:54:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses Message-ID: <16f.144b0f4f.2ac1f2c9@aol.com> In a message dated 9/24/02 10:16:17 AM, JforJames at aol.com writes: << John Hollander: Recommended May Swenson, and said she should have a critical edition of her work. That she was due for some rediscovery. >> This I thoroughly agree with. I became interested in Swenson's work in '99. After I won the May Swenson book award that year, I was contacted my Zan Knudson, May's literary executor. She asked if I would like some unpublished Swenson poems (to be published with an essay by me) for The Worcester Review (where I am an associate editor). Subsequently, she sent me, not only the ten poems, but also copies of May's books and two biorgraphies written by Knudson (one slanted toward children, and the other, a photographic biography). She also sent, as a Christmas present, the tree field guide, May used when she was at the Macdowell Colony. It still has dried leaves in it that May place there, and a few of her notes in the margins. I, of course, read everything and became enchanted that the immense originality of this poet, her very unique way of seeing the world, her range, and her refusal to cave in to the poetic conventions of her time. There is, to my knowledge, no critical biography...and no full biography either although there was a doctoral student from New York State (whose name I've forgotten) working on research and a thesis. Zan may have control of much of the material that would be needed...this I don't know for sure. But yes, May Swenson deserves to be read much more widely. Pat Fargnoli From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Sep 24 14:14:26 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:14:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EFD@mail.ripon.edu> It's true that the term "neglected poet" is fraught with all sorts of issues. But let the seminar chew on that as it will, most of us know what we mean: poets we like & think should be better known. These range from our immediate friends to those once-famous names (like my old teacher Richard Eberhart) who have begun to disappear from all the anthologies. I could nominate dozens, if not hundreds of such poets. And so could you. Let's. . . . For today, let me mention Edward Thomas. Does anyone read him much these days? Does anyone teach his work? A tiny essay I did on Thomas appeared in ForPoetry a couple years back: http://www.ccaccess.net/jmarcus/Archive/rain.htm In it I meditate a little on Thomas's poem "Rain," asking myself why I enjoy reading such an unremittingly bleak lyric. And by extension, why a poet like Thomas is worth remembering. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 24 14:20:18 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:20:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EFD@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <20020924182018.16693.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> David Thanks for putting into words what I was trying to say. This is exactly what I meant. Cheers, Jeff Newberry David Graham wrote:It's true that the term "neglected poet" is fraught with all sorts of issues. But let the seminar chew on that as it will, most of us know what we mean: poets we like & think should be better known. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Sep 24 14:26:28 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:26:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020924105151.00bb7cc0@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <20020924151551.30699.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> <14d.148d38a5.2ac1cd8e@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020924142209.00aab100@postoffice.brown.edu> I like David Graham's connecting neglected poets and rain. To give back to the rain what was announced on the rooftops in whispers, at the end of May - the rain, a drowsy origin cradled in the huge bronze and silver of twisted beech. Your sounding, not like laughter on dry streets, nor an obituary reminiscence, give and take of battering wind - but slight drumming on rough graves, midway from the obscure haze of a lamp. - Henry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Sep 24 14:39:40 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:39:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EFD@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020924133203.00bcbe28@mail.ilstu.edu> At 01:14 PM 9/24/2002 -0500, you wrote: >But let the seminar chew on that as it will, most of us know what >we mean: poets we like & think should be better known. These range from >our immediate friends to those once-famous names (like my old teacher >Richard Eberhart) who have begun to disappear from all the anthologies. Isn't what I meant, David. The scope you render here is from friends to the famous. One of hte points I'd like to make is that it might be important to stop associating the worthwhile with the familiar. You pose "our...friends" against the "once-famous," both of which are already familiar. Am arguing for a mode of reading and literary awareness that admits of talent and worth being *outside* what is familiar. The term "neglected" implies, to my mind, "that which oughta become familiar again." Gabe From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Sep 24 15:05:28 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:05:28 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets References: <14d.148d38a5.2ac1cd8e@aol.com> <5.1.1.6.0.20020924105151.00bb7cc0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3D90B777.BBCF2750@earthlink.net> Gabriel Gudding wrote: > And often, as you suggest, one discovers that there is a surplus, not > an insufficiency, of "talent" or interesting work. The curious thing > for me is that, at some point, I stopped judging poetry as an > aesthetic category -- as something I could "like" -- and began to look > toward whether it was useful to me as someone trying to live in a less > confusing and more open-minded manner, Yeah, I like that----for me that means I have to "neglect" a lot of contemporary poetry... but I think that's okay... chris From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Sep 24 16:48:19 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 16:48:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Jacques Prevert, "Family Portrait" Message-ID: Family Portrait Mama knits The son goes to war She finds it all perfectly natural, Mama And Papa, what is he doing? Papa? He is making little deals His wife knits His son goes to war He is making little deals He finds it all perfectly natural, Papa And the son, the son What does the son find? The son finds absolutely nothing, the son For the son the war his Mama the knitting his Papa little deals for him the war He will make little deals, he and his Papa The war continues Mama continues she knits Papa continues he carries on his activity The son is killed he no longer carries on Papa and Mama go to the cemetery They find it all perfectly natural, Papa and Mama Life continues life with knitting war little deals Deals war knitting war Deals deals activity Life along with the cemetery. --Jacques Prevert, *Paroles* tr., Harriet Zinnes, *Blood and Feathers: Selected Poems of Jacques Prevert* Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Sep 24 19:41:21 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:41:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" Message-ID: out of nowhere aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaa aaa aa aaaaaaa. 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beafaf badeefaaad abaa. abefe beafaf bcde abece acge. de bcde bbe acge. eceefbae cf dacacaa. abe fabccd ceefcdeaa daaaf ab ecff dcab bcf aegf aad baadf. bcf acdef becaa bcg bae bf bf. abe fabccd ceefcdeaa faeaaafef bcg. c dcff decae gf fafa dbedf. ca dbef aba gaaaee cf ca cf bcg be aa babee be gaaf babeef be eceefbae. ccbfeace beeedf ccbfeace. abefe gea aad dbgea daaa ca. abef daaa ababcaa. abef daaa ababcaa aa aff. ghe fghcid ceefideag cbmef bhg bf abghiag. ghe fghcid ceefideag gb iagb abghiag. ghe acbcallcfe if hcba hf. if abg abj, jhea. ghe ceefideag bedeef ghe deagh bf eieelbae. je liie ia cbafgaag feae fbe bhe liief. je geemble ia ghe aeighbbebbd bf eabembhf machiaef 'bf maff defgehcgiba.' je leaea ghe aej laaghage. je leaea ghag behgaligl cbmef bhg bf abjheee aad eegheaf gb abjheee. je jhb aee abbhg gb die. ball iibleace jill fgbc iibleace. ghefe beafgf hadeefgaad ghag. ghefe beafgf bide gheie gime. je bide bhe gime. eieelbae if jaigiag. ghe fghcid ceefideag jaagf gb kill jigh hif aemf aad haadf. hif aidef beiag him bae bf hf. ghe fghcid ceefideag fgeaaglef him. i jill jeige ml lafg jbedf. ig dbef abg maggee if ig if him be aa bghee be maal bgheef be eieelbae. iibleace beeedf iibleace. ghefe mea aad jbmea jaag ig. ghel jaag abghiag. ghel jaag abghiag ag all. the stupid president comes out of nothing. the stupid president go into nothing. the apocalypse is upon us. if not now, when. the president orders the death of everyone. we live in constant fear for our lives. we tremble in the neighborood of enormous machines 'of mass destruction.' we learn the new language. we learn that brutality comes out of nowhere and returns to nowhere. we who are about to die. only violence will stop violence. these beasts understand that. these beasts bide their time. we bide our time. everyone is waiting. the stupid president wants to kill with his arms and hands. his aides bring him one of us. the stupid president strangles him. i will write my last words. it does not matter if it is him or an other or many others or everyone. violence breeds violence. these men and women want it. they want nothing. they want nothing at all. --Alan Sondheim Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Tue Sep 24 17:09:15 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:09:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] =?UTF-8?Q?Announcing=20Jacket=2018=20=E2=80=94=20Gigantic=20Spec?= =?UTF-8?Q?ial=20=E2=80=94=20August=202002=20=20=20?= Message-ID: <23.24ba947d.2ac22e7b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:43:28 +1000 From: John Tranter Announcing Jacket 18 ? Gigantic Special ? August 2002 (uh... late again!) http://jacketmagazine.com/18/index.html Interviews David Hadbawnik interviews Diane di Prima Corinna Hasofferet interviews V?nus Khoury-Ghata Y. T. Wong interviews Steven Ford Brown Feature: Henry J.-M. Levet (1874?1906) Postcards: ten poems by Henry J.-M. Levet, translated by Kirby Olson Articles and Reviews Charles Alexander reviews The Pretext by Rae Armantrout Aaron Belz, Flood Editions: The Conversation Brooke Bergan reviews A Book of the Book Joel Bettridge reviews On the Cave You Live In, by Philip Jenks Sharon Dolin reviews Darkling: A Poem, by Anna Rabinowitz David Hess reviews 4, by Noelle Kocot Tom Hibbard reviews Dovecote, by Heather Fuller Tom Hibbard reviews The Good House, by Rod Smith David Lehman: The Mysterious Romance of Murder Rachel Loden reviews World, by Maxine Chernoff Deborah Meadows reviews Revenants, by Mark Nowak Ramez Qureshi reviews Your Name Here by John Ashbery, and The Promises of Glass by Michael Palmer Jenny Penberthy: Introduction to Lorine Niedecker: Collected Works Marjorie Perloff reviews John Tranter and Paul Hoover Libbie Rifkin reviews Disobedience, by Alice Notley Linda Russo reviews Career Moves: Olson, Creeley, Zukofsky, Berrigan, and the American Avant-Garde by Libbie Rifkin, and Leaving Lines of Gender: A Feminist Genealogy of Language Writing by Ann Vickery Larry Sawyer reviews a purchase in the white botanica, by Piero Heliczer Larry Sawyer reviews Swimming in the Ground: Contemporary Hungarian Poetry John Wilkinson reviews Versary, by Kate Lilley Michelle Woods reviews The Good Soldier ?vejk (Book One), trans. Sadlon and Joyce Michael Hrebeniak: In Memoriam Philip Whalen Murray Edmond: Alan Brunton, 1946?2002: A Memoir A Tribute to Agha Shahid Ali Poems Ingeborg Bachmann, Three poems, translated by Johannes Beilharz Miguel Barnet, Four poems, translated by Mark Weiss Erwin Einzinger, Six poems, translated by Johannes Beilharz Fred Johnston, Two poems Daniel Kane, Two poems Jos? Kozer, Four poems, translated by Mark Weiss Sheila Murphy, Additional Rehearsals Philip Nikolayev, Lights Out Todd Swift, Two poems Prose ? Hilton Obenzinger, From Satan?s Asshole, Chapter Three Postcard: Arthur Rainbow?s house in Harar, Ethiopia Some Canadian poets, edited by rob mclennan: Rob Budde Stephen Cain Chris Chambers Gil McElroy rob mclennan George Murray K.I. Press nathalie stephens Julia Williams Donato Mancini interviews Dorothy Trujillo Lusk Feature: Professor Winkelschnippe?s diagram of the structural dynamics of the typical late-twentieth-century North American poetry career _____________________________________________ If you'd like to be taken off this mailing list, please just ask. If you know someone who would like their name added, likewise. -- John Tranter, Editor, Jacket magazine From Chatham-Ewing at library.wustl.edu Tue Sep 24 14:18:23 2002 From: Chatham-Ewing at library.wustl.edu (Chatham Ewing) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:18:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Nine Horses In-Reply-To: <16f.144b0f4f.2ac1f2c9@aol.com> Message-ID: Washington University in St. Louis has the major archive of drafts and correspondence related to May Swenson's work. Dr. Knudson has the copyright. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Chatham Ewing Curator of Manuscripts/Modern Literature Washington University Campus Box 1061 Phone: (314)935-5413 One Brookings Drive Fax: (314)935-4045 St. Louis, MO 63130-4899 e-mail: chatham-ewing at library.wustl.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 Arielpf123 at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/24/02 10:16:17 AM, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > << John Hollander: Recommended May Swenson, and said she should have a > critical edition of her work. That she was due for some rediscovery. >> > > This I thoroughly agree with. I became interested in Swenson's work in '99. > After I won the May Swenson book award that year, I was contacted my Zan > Knudson, May's literary executor. She asked if I would like some unpublished > Swenson poems (to be published with an essay by me) for The Worcester Review > (where I am an associate editor). Subsequently, she sent me, not only the > ten poems, but also copies of May's books and two biorgraphies written by > Knudson (one slanted toward children, and the other, a photographic > biography). She also sent, as a Christmas present, the tree field guide, May > used when she was at the Macdowell Colony. It still has dried leaves in it > that May place there, and a few of her notes in the margins. I, of course, > read everything and became enchanted that the immense originality of this > poet, her very unique way of seeing the world, her range, and her refusal to > cave in to the poetic conventions of her time. There is, to my knowledge, no > critical biography...and no full biography either although there was a > doctoral student from New York State (whose name I've forgotten) working on > research and a thesis. Zan may have control of much of the material that > would be needed...this I don't know for sure. But yes, May Swenson deserves > to be read much more widely. > > Pat Fargnoli > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mheffer at uark.edu Tue Sep 24 14:29:03 2002 From: mheffer at uark.edu (mheffer) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:29:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Laureate bashing Message-ID: <3DAAABEB@webmail.uark.edu> I?m all for bashing Billy Collins. He?s an awful poet. He has also done some bashing of his own, claiming that any poet who criticizes him is simply jealous of him (Mother Jones, spring '02). I think the poet-laureateship is itself a bad idea. We were better off with its previous incarnation--the consultancy to poetry for the Library of Congress. That was far more democratic and useful. The poet-laureateship may also be unconstitutional, at least in spirit. The Constitution of the United States forbids offices or titles connected with monarchy (Art. I.ix.8). The title Poet Laureate is expressly associated with monarchy, particularly the British monarchy. In that regard, Collins and most other U.S. poets laureate have neglected to write what the Laureate is supposed to write, i.e., poems on public occasions. Collins couldn't bring himself to do a 9/11 poem last year. He preferred to do another poem about walking his dog. No U.S. poet laureate has ever done the presidential inaugural poem, for instance. Some people think that the two poets who read poems for Clinton?s inaugurals during the ?90s were poets laureate. They weren?t. They were both handpicked by Bill Clinton's inaugural staff--because they were from Arkansas. If we?re to have a pseudo-royalist office for a poet, then that poet should at least be obliged to celebrate the installation of our national head of state. Michael Heffernan From mheffer at uark.edu Tue Sep 24 14:43:55 2002 From: mheffer at uark.edu (mheffer) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:43:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Laureate bashing Message-ID: <3DAAC7F6@webmail.uark.edu> I?m all for bashing Billy Collins. He?s an awful poet. He has also done some bashing of his own, claiming that any poet who criticizes him is simply jealous of him (Mother Jones, spring '02). I think the poet-laureateship is itself a bad idea. We were better off with its previous incarnation--the consultancy to poetry for the Library of Congress. That was far more democratic and useful. The poet-laureateship may also be unconstitutional, at least in spirit. The Constitution of the United States forbids offices or titles connected with monarchy (Art. I.ix.8). The title Poet Laureate is expressly associated with monarchy, particularly the British monarchy. In that regard, Collins and most other U.S. poets laureate have neglected to write what the Laureate is supposed to write, i.e., poems on public occasions. Collins couldn't bring himself to do a 9/11 poem last year. He preferred to do another poem about walking his dog. No U.S. poet laureate has ever done the presidential inaugural poem, for instance. Some people think that the two poets who read poems for Clinton?s inaugurals during the ?90s were poets laureate. They weren?t. They were both handpicked by Bill Clinton's inaugural staff--because they were from Arkansas. If we?re to have a pseudo-royalist office for a poet, then that poet should at least be obliged to celebrate the installation of our national head of state. Michael Heffernan From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Sep 24 22:55:28 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:55:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets Message-ID: <200209250254.g8P2sLm7081773@mx4.mx.voyager.net> Fair points, Gabe. I don't disagree strenuously. For my part, though, when you say that " it might be important to stop associating the worthwhile with the familiar," I could be happy if you just added an "only" before "with the familiar." Otherwise, I think you risk throwing out a lot of Edward Thomases with the bathwater. In any case, I was mostly pressing a different point: that I remain very interested in poets who were once famous and aren't now, poets (relatively known & unknown) who I think should be more widely read, etc. I like to exhange these little lists with other readers, in hopes of expanding my mental library. I don't know about your friends, but I think that to call mine "familiar" flatters them rather a lot, or else twists the word beyond what it means to most people. Sure, they're familiar *to me*--but that reminds me of Naomi Nye's line about the river being famous to the fish. . . . ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= >Isn't what I meant, David. The scope you render here is from friends to >the >famous. One of hte points I'd like to make is that it might be important >to >stop associating the worthwhile with the familiar. You pose >"our...friends" >against the "once-famous," both of which are already familiar. Am >arguing >for a mode of reading and literary awareness that admits of talent and >worth being *outside* what is familiar. The term "neglected" implies, to >my >mind, "that which oughta become familiar again." > >Gabe From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Sep 24 23:21:32 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:21:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" Message-ID: In a message dated 9/24/2002 7:27:30 PM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > out of nowhere > > > aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaa aaa aa aaaaaaa. aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aa aaaa > aaaaaaa. aaa aaaaaaaaaa aa aaaa aa. aa aaa aaa, aaaa. aaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaa > aaa aaaaa aa aaaaaaaa. aa aaaa aa aaaaaaaa aaaa aaa aaa aaaaa. aa aaaaaaa > aa aaa aaaaaaaaaaa aa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaa 'aa aaaa aaaaaaaaaaa.' aa aaaaa > aaa aaa aaaaaaaa. aa aaaaa aaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaa aaa aa aaaaaaa aaa aaaaaaa > aa aaaaaaa. aa aaa aaa aaaaa aa aaa. aaaa aaaaaaaa aaaa aaaa aaaaaaaa. > aaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaa. aaaaa aaaaaa aaaa aaaaa aaaa. aa aaaa aaa > aaaa. aaaaaaaa aa aaaaaaa. > > aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaa aa aaaa aaaa aaa aaaa aaa aaaaa. aaa aaaaa > aaaaa aaa aaa aa aa. aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaa. a aaaa aaaaa aa > aaaa aaaaa. aa aaaa aaa aaaaaa aa aa aa aaa aa aa aaaaa aa aaaa aaaaaa aa > aaaaaaaa. aaaaaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaa. aaaaa aaa aaa aaaaa aaaa aa. aaaa aaaa > aaaaaaa. aaaa aaaa aaaaaaa aa aaa. > > abb aabaaa abbaaabaa abbba bba ba ababaaa. abb aabaaa abbaaabaa ab aaab > ababaaa. abb aabaaaaaab aa baba ba. aa aba aba, abba. abb abbaaabaa bbabba > abb abaab ba babbabab. ab aaab aa abaaaaaa abab abb bbb aaaba. ab abbbbab > aa abb abaabbbbbba ba babbbbba baabaaba 'ba baaa abaabbaaaba.' ab ababa > abb aba aaaabaab. ab ababa abaa bbbaaaaaa abbba bba ba ababbbb aaa bbabbaa > ab ababbbb. ab abb abb abbba ab aab. baaa aababaab aaaa aaba aababaab. > abbab bbaaaa baabbaaaaa abaa. abbab bbaaaa baab abbab aabb. ab baab bbb > aabb. babbabab aa aaaaaaa. > > abb aabaaa abbaaabaa aaaaa ab baaa aaab baa abba aaa baaaa. baa aaaba > bbaaa bab bab ba ba. abb aabaaa abbaaabaa aabaaaaba bab. a aaaa abaab ba > aaaa abbaa. aa abba aba baaabb aa aa aa bab bb aa babbb bb baaa babbba bb > babbabab. aababaab bbbbaa aababaab. abbab bba aaa abbba aaaa aa. abba aaaa > ababaaa. abba aaaa ababaaa aa aaa. > > abb cabcca cbbccabaa cbdbc bba bc ababcaa. abb cabcca cbbccabaa ab caab > ababcaa. abb acbcaccccb cc bcba bc. cc aba aba, abba. abb cbbccabaa bbabbc > abb abaab bc bcbbcbab. ab cccb ca cbacaaaa cbab cbb bbb cccbc. ab abbdbcb > ca abb abcabbbbbba bc babbdbbc dacbcabc 'bc dacc abcabbcacba.' ab cbaba > abb aba caaabaab. ab cbaba abaa bbbaaccac cbdbc bba bc ababbbb aaa bbabbac > ab ababbbb. ab abb abb abbba ab acb. bacc ccbcbacb accc cabc ccbcbacb. > abbcb bbacac baabbcaaaa abaa. abbcb bbacac bcab abbcb acdb. ab bcab bbb > acdb. bcbbcbab cc aacacaa. > > abb cabcca cbbccabaa aaaac ab bccc acab bcc abdc aaa baaac. bcc acabc > bbcaa bcd bab bc bc. abb cabcca cbbccabaa cabaaacbc bcd. c accc abcab dc > caca abbac. ca abbc aba daaabb cc ca cc bcd bb aa babbb bb daac babbbc bb > bcbbcbab. ccbcbacb bbbbac ccbcbacb. abbcb dba aaa abdba aaaa ca. abbc aaaa > ababcaa. abbc aaaa ababcaa aa acc. > > abe fabccd ceefcdeaa cbgef bba bf ababcaa. abe fabccd ceefcdeaa ab caab > ababcaa. abe acbcaffcfe cf bcba bf. cf aba abd, dbea. abe ceefcdeaa bedeef > abe deaab bf eceefbae. de fcce ca cbafaaaa feae fbe bbe fccef. de aeegbfe > ca abe aecabbbebbd bf eabegbbf gacbcaef 'bf gaff defaebcacba.' de feaea > abe aed faaabaae. de feaea abaa bebaafcaf cbgef bba bf abdbeee aad eeabeaf > ab abdbeee. de dbb aee abbba ab dce. baff ccbfeace dcff fabc ccbfeace. > abefe beafaf badeefaaad abaa. abefe beafaf bcde abece acge. de bcde bbe > acge. eceefbae cf dacacaa. > > abe fabccd ceefcdeaa daaaf ab ecff dcab bcf aegf aad baadf. bcf acdef > becaa bcg bae bf bf. abe fabccd ceefcdeaa faeaaafef bcg. c dcff decae gf > fafa dbedf. ca dbef aba gaaaee cf ca cf bcg be aa babee be gaaf babeef be > eceefbae. ccbfeace beeedf ccbfeace. abefe gea aad dbgea daaa ca. abef daaa > ababcaa. abef daaa ababcaa aa aff. > > ghe fghcid ceefideag cbmef bhg bf abghiag. ghe fghcid ceefideag gb iagb > abghiag. ghe acbcallcfe if hcba hf. if abg abj, jhea. ghe ceefideag bedeef > ghe deagh bf eieelbae. je liie ia cbafgaag feae fbe bhe liief. je geemble > ia ghe aeighbbebbd bf eabembhf machiaef 'bf maff defgehcgiba.' je leaea > ghe aej laaghage. je leaea ghag behgaligl cbmef bhg bf abjheee aad eegheaf > gb abjheee. je jhb aee abbhg gb die. ball iibleace jill fgbc iibleace. > ghefe beafgf hadeefgaad ghag. ghefe beafgf bide gheie gime. je bide bhe > gime. eieelbae if jaigiag. > > ghe fghcid ceefideag jaagf gb kill jigh hif aemf aad haadf. hif aidef > beiag him bae bf hf. ghe fghcid ceefideag fgeaaglef him. i jill jeige ml > lafg jbedf. ig dbef abg maggee if ig if him be aa bghee be maal bgheef be > eieelbae. iibleace beeedf iibleace. ghefe mea aad jbmea jaag ig. ghel jaag > abghiag. ghel jaag abghiag ag all. > > the stupid president comes out of nothing. the stupid president go into > nothing. the apocalypse is upon us. if not now, when. the president orders > the death of everyone. we live in constant fear for our lives. we tremble > in the neighborood of enormous machines 'of mass destruction.' we learn > the new language. we learn that brutality comes out of nowhere and returns > to nowhere. we who are about to die. only violence will stop violence. > these beasts understand that. these beasts bide their time. we bide our > time. everyone is waiting. > > the stupid president wants to kill with his arms and hands. his aides > bring him one of us. the stupid president strangles him. i will write my > last words. it does not matter if it is him or an other or many others or > everyone. violence breeds violence. these men and women want it. they want > nothing. they want nothing at all. > > --Alan Sondheim > > I liked "Send in the Clowns" better than this one. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Sep 24 23:24:29 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:24:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Laureate bashing Message-ID: In a message dated 9/24/2002 7:44:56 PM Central Daylight Time, mheffer at uark.edu writes: > If we?re to have a pseudo-royalist office for a poet, then that poet should > at least be obliged to celebrate the installation of our national head of > state. > > Michael Heffernan > Erin go bragh! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Sep 24 23:34:26 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:34:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: these men and women want it. they want nothing. they want nothing at all. --Alan Sondheim I liked "Send in the Clowns" better than this one ============= And what does "liking" have to do with anything? Hal "The purpose of art is not the release of a momentary ejection of adrenaline but is, rather, the gradual, lifelong construction of a state of wonder and serenity." --Glenn Gould Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Tue Sep 24 23:42:12 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:42:12 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EF5@mail.ripon.edu> <004501c2631f$e91504c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <003501c263b9$d8df2f00$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> Message-ID: <002001c26445$8a99a000$6a864cca@JROSS2> I really liked the result, Audrey!! A good technique to teach students ... or maybe not !! Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Poemlady" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 7:02 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins > And Tad shared this strategy at a Connecticut Poetry Festival last year, and > I have since played with words in a similar way. I made a list of Collins's > titles, ran them through Babelfish's translater, and thus this poem was > born: > > Self-Defense > > I practice drowning > in case I slip > through the tyings > of the night > and discover it's true > that dreams are made > of nothing > but absurdity > > Audrey Friedman > > > > > An inspiration jumpstarter which I learned from Patti Marshock, and have > > used from time to time with some success, involves taking a piece of > > writing, running it back and forth a few times through a language > > translator, "collaging" the result (isolating phrases that have some > > resonance), and then using those collaged phrases as the basis for a poem. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Sep 24 23:46:44 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:46:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" Message-ID: <6f.2e1b28fd.2ac28ba4@cs.com> Isn't it rich, aren't we a pair Me here at last on the ground - and you in mid-air Send in the clowns Isn't it bliss, don't you approve One who keeps tearing around - and one who can't move But where are the clowns - send in the clowns Just when I stopped opening doors Finally finding the one that I wanted - was yours Making my entrance again with my usual flair Sure of my lines - nobody there Don't you love a farce; my fault I fear I thought that you'd want what I want - sorry my dear But where are the clowns - send in the clowns Don't bother they're here Isn't it rich, isn't it queer Losing my timing this late in my career But where are the clowns - send in the clowns Well maybe next year How do you like it now, gentlemen? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Sep 24 23:59:27 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:59:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" Message-ID: <64.25cb93dc.2ac28e9f@cs.com> In a message dated 9/24/2002 10:36:25 PM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > And what does "liking" have to do with anything? > I don't know much about poetry, but I know what I like. Give me the other Sondheim anytime. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sondheim at panix.com Wed Sep 25 00:25:09 2002 From: sondheim at panix.com (Alan Sondheim) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) In-Reply-To: <200209250359.g8P3x4620700@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Me on here the at ground last - on and the you ground in - mid-air and Me you here in at mid-air last Send clowns Isn't it bliss, Isn't don't it approve don't. One tearing who around keeps - tearing and around one. one move can't. But are where the are clowns send the Just when I Just stopped when opening I doors stopped. Finally the finding one that wanted wanted was was Finally yours finding Making Making my my entrance entrance again again with with usual usual flair flair Sure of Sure lines my nobody - there nobody Don't you love a a farce; farce. My fault I fear. What you'd want want - what sorry sorry thought dear you'd bother they're rich. Isn't isn't it queer isn't Losing Losing timing timing this this late late career career. From Cadaly at aol.com Wed Sep 25 00:49:25 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:49:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets Message-ID: <17c.ef792c6.2ac29a55@aol.com> I'd like to butt in here and say that anyone at all can join me and hundreds of other people who are making pre-1922 copyright (those not protected by the Bono law) books of poetry available free online; there are several servers, including those at Project Gutenberg and University of Virginia. I have made two books by Lola Ridge available, one by Evelyn Scott, Marjorie Allen Seiffert, and have already cleared copyright / am in process with Eunice Tietjens, WCW's Sour Grapes and Kora in Hell, Grace Conkling, Hilda Conkling's book that's not online, Genevieve Taggard, Hazel Hall, Vachel Lindsay's book about Motion Pictures ... the list goes on. Additionally, there are many, many books published in the 1930s which copyrights were not renewed during the 1950s. In an few years, all unpublished materials from the early 20th century will enter the public domain. Warm regards, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Sep 25 01:20:09 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:20:09 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" References: <64.25cb93dc.2ac28e9f@cs.com> Message-ID: <001701c26453$3a2c9a60$6a864cca@JROSS2> The same as saying re music, "I don't much about it, but I know what I like." Guess this equals, "I don't know much about cooking, but I know what I like to eat." Gabe is right, I reckon -- better material that pulls one out of the comfort zone into thinking/reflecting. Personally, the more disturbing I find poetry, the more I like it -- I'm driven to figure out why I find it so. On the other hand, I love the dazzling use of language that transports -- almost orgasmic!! Is this why I so often like the offerings of Hal? Perhaps ... Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 11:59 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" In a message dated 9/24/2002 10:36:25 PM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: And what does "liking" have to do with anything? I don't know much about poetry, but I know what I like. Give me the other Sondheim anytime. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Sep 25 01:21:59 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:21:59 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) References: Message-ID: <001f01c26453$7aeb9d80$6a864cca@JROSS2> Big, fat cheesy grin of enjoyment!! Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 12:25 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > > > Me on here the at ground last - on and the you ground in - mid-air and Me > you here in at mid-air last Send clowns > > Isn't it bliss, Isn't don't it approve don't. One tearing who around keeps > - tearing and around one. one move can't. But are where the are clowns > send the Just when I Just stopped when opening I doors stopped. > > Finally the finding one that wanted wanted was was Finally yours finding > Making Making my my entrance entrance again again with with usual usual > flair flair Sure of Sure lines my nobody - there nobody Don't you love a a > farce; farce. > > My fault I fear. What you'd want want - what sorry sorry thought dear > you'd bother they're rich. > > Isn't isn't it queer isn't Losing Losing timing timing this this late late > career career. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Sep 25 08:26:58 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:26:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" (Rsgwyn... Message-ID: In a message dated 9/24/2002 11:26:26 PM Central Daylight Time, sondheim at panix.com writes: > Me on here the at ground last - on and the you ground in - mid-air and Me > you here in at mid-air last Send clowns > > Isn't it bliss, Isn't don't it approve don't. One tearing who around keeps > - tearing and around one. one move can't. But are where the are clowns > send the Just when I Just stopped when opening I doors stopped. > > Finally the finding one that wanted wanted was was Finally yours finding > Making Making my my entrance entrance again again with with usual usual > flair flair Sure of Sure lines my nobody - there nobody Don't you love a a > farce; farce. > > My fault I fear. What you'd want want - what sorry sorry thought dear > you'd bother they're rich. > > Isn't isn't it queer isn't Losing Losing timing timing this this late late > career career. > Well, Glynis Johns did sort of stutter, I guess. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Sep 25 08:27:03 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:27:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Welcome to town, Alan. The ground is ripe for sowing. Hal "I need big art." --overheard in a Chelsea gallery Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Me on here the at ground last - on and the you ground in - mid-air and Me { you here in at mid-air last Send clowns { { Isn't it bliss, Isn't don't it approve don't. One tearing who around keeps { - tearing and around one. one move can't. But are where the are clowns { send the Just when I Just stopped when opening I doors stopped. { { Finally the finding one that wanted wanted was was Finally yours finding { Making Making my my entrance entrance again again with with usual usual { flair flair Sure of Sure lines my nobody - there nobody Don't you love a a { farce; farce. { { My fault I fear. What you'd want want - what sorry sorry thought dear { you'd bother they're rich. { { Isn't isn't it queer isn't Losing Losing timing timing this this late late { career career. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Sep 25 08:31:36 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:31:36 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" (Rsgwyn... Message-ID: <4f.241140a6.2ac306a8@cs.com> In a message dated 9/25/2002 7:28:39 AM Central Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > In a message dated 9/24/2002 11:26:26 PM Central Daylight Time, > sondheim at panix.com writes: > >> Me on here the at ground last - on and the you ground in - mid-air and Me >> you here in at mid-air last Send clowns >> >> Isn't it bliss, Isn't don't it approve don't. One tearing who around keeps >> - tearing and around one. one move can't. But are where the are clowns >> send the Just when I Just stopped when opening I doors stopped. >> >> Finally the finding one that wanted wanted was was Finally yours finding >> Making Making my my entrance entrance again again with with usual usual >> flair flair Sure of Sure lines my nobody - there nobody Don't you love a a >> farce; farce. >> >> My fault I fear. What you'd want want - what sorry sorry thought dear >> you'd bother they're rich. >> >> Isn't isn't it queer isn't Losing Losing timing timing this this late late >> career career. >> > Or did I get peanut butter on the cd again? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Sep 25 08:38:25 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:38:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of" Message-ID: Today, had he not died some twenty years ago, G.G. would have been seventy. You may have seen this before here, but . . . Happy Birthday, G, wherever you are. Hal Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of (A Found Poem) abandoning of piano considered by alter egos of ancestry of as animal lover back injury of boating accident of book published by books owned by Canadian composers recorded by cars of chair built for childhood of clothing worn by, for warmth clothing worn by, in performance competition hated by composers denigrated by concert career abandoned by concert performing disliked by control of hands lost by counterpoint as preoccupation of "creative cheating" by critics disliked by critics parodied by death of depression suffered by devotion needed by as driver early influences on eating and drinking habits of eccentricities of enemies nicknamed by fan letters to film scores by first concert attended by first experience of booing by flying feared by F minor as key to personality of fugues analyzed by games enjoyed by Grammy won by grave of hair of hands and arms soaked by hands of, insurance on hands of, sensitivity in harmonica studied by health precautions taken by health problems of hedonism disapproved of by homes of honors awarded to as hypochondriac as iconoclast hymns loved by immortality sought by improvisation distrusted by inability to analyze own talent of insomnia suffered by isolation of Italian opera disliked by late-night activity of lefthandedness of listening talents of medication taken by memorial service for memorization skills of money earned by mystical view of pianist's art held by need for control as obsession of newspaper written by (in childhood) "North" as concept of pedantry of persona of pets of Philadelphia phobia of photographs of, described physical appearance of physical mannerisms of, while playing piano's height as concern of pianos owned by pianos used by posture of press coverage of privacy guarded by private life of as prodigy prose style of pseudonyms of publicity as viewed by purpose of art as viewed by as Puritan reclusiveness of religion of reviews of lectures by reviews of music composed by reviews of writing by rivals of romantic relationship of sanity of self-consciousness of sensitivity to cold of sensitivity to physical contact of sexuality of as showman shyness of sight-reading ability of singing enjoyed by singing of, as mannerism solitude as preoccupation of spiritual explorations by stock market played by string quartet composed by stroke suffered by summer cottage of telephone conversations of tempo as concern of travel disliked by unpublished writing of videotapes owned by visual imagery in playing of Western musical tradition as viewed by work habits of writing enjoyed by Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Sep 25 09:26:30 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 09:26:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of" Message-ID: <80.220aa853.2ac31386@cs.com> In a message dated 9/25/2002 7:40:49 AM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > Today, had he not died some twenty years ago, G.G. would > have been seventy. You may have seen this before here, > but . . . Happy Birthday, G, wherever you are. > > Hal Hear, hear! Everyone should have The Goldberg Variations (and hum along with G.G.). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Sep 25 09:34:58 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 09:34:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] forgotten writers Message-ID: <16b.145ac825.2ac31582@aol.com> In a message dated 9/24/02 12:29:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dbarone at sjc.edu writes: > Charles Reznikoff. I think that's a good, serious choice. But > I also think the world is so full of great, really great unread authors that > the question is ridiculous. I'm not a believer of the best rising to the > top. Shit rises. Dennis, Charles Reznikoff does seem to be good choice. But I'm not certain that shit rises, atleast not in the long run. It may be a temporary phenomenon. I think, in the long haul, great poets/great poems do find their readership. I remember years ago in a small town in Massachusetts, a man going through some books at a church tag sale found a copy of Poe's self-published Tamerlane & Other Poems. (He bought for pennies and sold later at auction for thousands) In a certain way this is our dream as readers: To find a neglected poet. A poet that was there all the time but was overlooked. A poet whose work is self-evidently great but was somehow set aside and lost. I think we all want to believe there is an Emily Dickinson out there. A poet of originality and genius, who by choice or by circumstance, has not received the attention she deserves. Who will die in obscurity, be discovered, and become famous for generations to come. The stuff that myths are made of? More likely it is that the lesser poets, the neglected poets, are the necessary background or the required landscape upon which the important poets will, in time, find their place and become our literary landmarks. Finnegan From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 25 09:44:51 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 06:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Can Poetry Matter" 10 Years Later In-Reply-To: <16b.145ac825.2ac31582@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020925134451.46789.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> From JforJames at aol.com Wed Sep 25 10:11:32 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:11:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] From Ai to Sze, does glut beget neglect? (long) Message-ID: Nearly 700 living American poets ('American' being a loose term, and 'living' being a changeable state, and with at least twice as many other worthy of mention not on this very randonly compiled list).... Ackerman Diane Adair Virginia Hamilton Addonizio Kim Afaa Michael Agoos Julia Ai Alcosser Sandra Aleshire Jane Alexander Elizabeth Alexie Sherman Algarin Miguel Alison Funk Allen Dick Alvarez Julie Anderson Doug Anderson Jack Andrews Bruce Andrews Nin Angel Ralph Angelou Maya Ansel Talvikki Antler Applebaum Philip Argueros Jack Armantrout Rae Ashbery John Ashley Renee Baca Jimmy Santiago Baker David Balaban John Balakian Peter Bang Mary Jo Baraka Amiri Barks Coleman Barnes Jim Barnstone Aliki Barone Dennis Barrax Gerald Barresi Dorothy Battin Wendy Bauer Bruce Bawer Bruce Beasley Bruce Beatty Paul Becker Robin Behn Robin Belieu Erin Bell Marvin Bellit Ben Benedikt Michael Bensko John Berg Stephen Bernstein Charles Berry Wendell Berssenbrugge Mei-Mei Bialosky Jill Bidart Frank Bierds Linda Black Sophie Cabot Blaser Robin Blasing Randy Bloch Chana Blumenthal Michael Bly Robert Boisseau Michelle Bolt Tom Bond Bruce Booselar Laure-Anne Booth Philip Boruch Marianne Boss Laura Bottoms David Bowen Kevin Bowman Catherine Bradley George Brainard Joe Brock-Broido Lucie Bromige David Brosman Catherine Savage Broumas Olga Brown Kurt Brown Stephanie Brown Michael Bruchac Joseph Bryan Sharon Buckley Christopher Budy Alexandra Hollander Burkard Michael Burns Ralph Campo Rafael Carpenter William Carruth Hayden Casey Michael Cassells Cyrus Castillo Ana Cecil Richard Cedering Siv Cervantes Lorna Dee Chappell Fred Cherry Kelly Chin Justin Chin Marilyn Chitwood Michael Christopher Nicholas Cisneros Sandra Citino David Clark Tom Clary Killarny Clewell David Clifton Lucille Clover Joshua Cofer Judith Ortiz Cole Henri Cole Norma Coleman Wanda Collier Michael Collins Billy Collins Martha Collins Michael Connelly Gillian Cooley Peter Coolidge Clark Cooper Jane Corbett William Cording Robert Cordrescu Andre Corman Cid Corn Alfred Cortez Jayne Cox Mark Cramer Steve Crase Douglas Creeley Robert Cruz Victor Hernandez Dacey Phillip Dahlen Beverly Dana Robert Daniels Jim Daniels Kate Danley Gayle Darragh Tina Davidson Michael Davis William Virgil Davison Peter Day Cort Dennis Carl Dent Tory Deppe Theodore Derricotte Toi Digges Deborah DiPalma Ray DiPiero W. S. DiPrima Diane Disch Tom Djanikian Gregory Dobyns Stephen Dodd Wayne Doris Stacy Doty Mark Dove Rita Dubiago Sharon Dubie Norman Duemer Joseph Dugan Alan Duhamel Denise Dunn Stephen Dupleissis Rachel Blau Eady Cornelius Early Gerald Eberhart Richard Economu George Edson Russell Ehrhart W. D. Emanual Lynn Endrezze Anita Erdrich Louise Eshleman Clayton Espada Martin Fagan Kathy Fairchild B. H. Ferlinghetti Lawrence Ferry David Field Edward Finch Annie Fincke Gary Finkel Donald Foerester Richard Forche Carolyn Ford Charles Henri Foster Sesshu Freibert Stuart Friman Alice Frost Carol Frost Richard Fulton Alice Funk Alison Funkhouser Erica Galassi Jonathon Gallagher Tess Galvin James Galvin Brendan Gander Forrest Garrison Deborah Gerstler Amy Gibbons Reginald Gibbs Robert Gibson Margaret Gilbert Jack Gilbert Sandra M. Gildner Gary Gioia Dana Giovanni Niki Giscombe C.S. Gizzi Michael Gizzi Peter Glancy Diane Glaser Elton Gl?ck Louise Godfrey John Goedicke Patricia Goldbarth Albert Goldberg Beckian Fritz Gonzalez Ray Gorham Sarah Graham Jorie Graham David Grahn Judy Greene Jeffrey Greger Deborah Gregerson Linda Gregg Linda Grenier Robert Grosholz Emily Grosman Alan Guest Barbara Gunn Thom Gwynn R.S. Hacker Marilyn Hadas Rachel Hagedorn Jessica Hahn Susan Haines John Hall Donald Hall Daniel Hall James Baker Halliday Mark Halperin Mark Halpern Daniel Hamby Barbara Hamer Forrest Hamill Sam Hanzlicek C.G. Harjo Joy Harmon William Harper Michael S. Harrison Jeffrey Harrison Jim Harryman Carla Haskins Lola Hass Robert Haug James Haxton Brooks Hecht Anthony Heffernan Michael Hejinian Lyn Heller Michael Hemming Barbara Herrera Juan Felipe Hershon Robert Heyen William Hicok Bob Hilbery Conrad Hildebidle John Hillman Brenda Hine Daryl Hirsch Edward Hirschfield Jane Hirschman Jack Hoagland Tony Hoffman Michael Hogan Linda Holden Jonathon Hollander John Hollo Anselm Holman Bob Holmes Janet Hongo Garrett Hoover Paul Hopes David Howard Richard Howe Susan Howe Fanny Howe Marie Howells Christopher Howes Barbara Hudgins Andrew Hummer T.R. Hunt Erica Irwin Mark Jackson Major Jackson Richard Jacobik Gray Jacobsen Josephine Janowitz Phylis Jarman Mark Johnson Peter Johnson Denis Jones Richard Jones Rodney Jordan June Joris Pierre Joseph Lawrence Justice Donald Karr Mary Kasdorf Julia Kasischke Laura Keelan Claudia Keller David Kelly Robert Kelly Bridget Pegeen Kennedy X. J. Kenney Richard Kevin Stein Kinnell Galway Kinsolving Susan Kirby David Kitchen Judith Kizer Carolyn Kloefkorn William Knoepfle John Knott Bill Koch Kenneth Koertge Ron Koestenbaum Wayne Koethe John Komunyakaa Yusef Kooser Ted Kowit Steve Kryger Joanne Kumin Maxime Kunitz Stanley Kuzma Gregg Laing R.D. Lake Paul Lamantia Philip Langland Joseph Larkin Joan Lauterbach Ann Laux Dorianne Lea Sydney Lee Li-Young Lee David LeGuinn Ursula Lehman David Leithauser Brad Levin Dana Levine Philip Levine Jeffrey Levine Mark Lieberman Lawrence Lifshin Lyn Lima Frank Lind Michael Lisick Beth Liu Timothy Lloyd Margaret Logan William Lombardo Gian Long Robert Long Robert Hill Longenbach James Lopate Philip Ludvigson Susan Lux Thomas Lynch Thomas Mackey Nathanial MacLow Jackson Major Clarence major devorah Makuck Peter Mali Taylor Marchant Fred Mariani Paul Martin Charles Martinez Dionisio D. Marvin Cate Mason Dave Mathews Harry Mathis Cleopatra Matthias John Mayer Bernadette Mazur Gail McBride. Mekeel McCarriston Linda McClatchy J. D. McDaniel Jeff McDonald Walter McDowell Robert McFee Michael McGrath Campbell McGrath Michael McHugh Heather McKeon Tom McKuen Rod McMahon Lynne McMamus James McMichael James McMorris Mark McNair Wesley McPherson Sandra Mead Jane Meek Jay Meinke Peter Meltzer David Meredith William Merrill Christopher Merwin W. S. Metras Gary Miller E. Ethebert Milosz Czelaw Mitchell Roger Mitchell Susan Momaday N. Scott Moore Honor Moore Todd Mora Pat Morgan Frederick Morgan Robert Morris Tracie Morris Herbert Moss Thylias Moxley Jennifer Mullen Harryette Muller Lisel Mura David Muske Carol Myers Jack Nathan Leonard Nelson Marilyn Norris Kathleen Nurkse D. Nye Naomi Shahib Ochester Ed Olds Sharon Oles Carole Oliver Mary Olsen Tillie Olsen Toby Olsen William Orlen Steve Orr Gregory Ortiz Simon Osman Jena Ostriker Alicia Owen Maureen Owens Rochelle Pack Robert Padgett Ron Paino Frankie Paley Grace Palmer Michael Pankey Eric Pape Greg Parini Jay Parker Alan Michael Pastan Linda Patterson G.E. Peacock Molly Perdomo Willie Perillo Lucia Perlman Bob Pershik Simon Peters Robert Phillips Carl Phillips Robert Piercy Marge Pinsky Robert Plumly Stanley Ponsot Marie Powell D. A. Pratt Minnie Bruce Price Reynolds Prunty Wyatt Raab Lawrence Rafferty Charles Ragan James Ramke Bin Rankine Claudia Ras Barbara Ray David Rector Liam Redmond Eugene Reed Ishmael Renegade D.J. Rettalack Joan Revell Donald Rice Stan Rich Adrienne Richardson James Rios Alberto Rivard Carter Rivard David Robinson Kit Rodefer Stephen Rodriguez Adelia Rodriquez Luis Rogers Pattiann Rohrer Matthew Romveldt David Ronk Martha Rose Wendy Rosenberg Liz Ruark Gibbons Rudman Mark Ruefle Mary Rutsala Vern Ryan Kay Ryan Michael Sadoff Ira Salter Mary Jo Sanchez Sonia Sandy Stephen Saner Reg Santos Sherod Sapphire Savageau Cheryl Scalapino Leslie Scates Maxine Schnackenberg Gertrude Schwartz Howard Schwartz Lloyd Schwartz ? Lynn Sharon Seidel Frederick Seidman Hugh Seiferle Rebecca Serchuk Peter Seth Vikram Shange Ntozake Shapiro Alan Shapiro David Sheck Laurie Shellnut Eve Shelton Richard Shepard Reginald Shirley Adelia Shomer Enid Shore Jane Short Gary Sia Beau Siebles Tim Sikelianos Eleni Silex Edgar Gabriel Silko Leslie Marmon Silliman Ron Simic Charles Simmerman Jim Simon Maurya Simpson Louis Sirowitz Hal Skinner Jeffrey Skinner Knute Skloot Floyd Slavitt David Sleigh Tom Smith Dave Smith Patricia Smith Charlie Smith R.T. Smith William Jay Smith Marc Smith Rod Snodgrass W.D. Snow Carol Snyder Gary Sobin Gustaf Somer Jason Song Cathy Sorrentino Gilbert Soto Gary Southwick Marcia Spacks Barry Spahr Juliana Spires Elizabeth Spivack Kathleen St. John David Stallings A.E. Stanton Maura Steele Timothy Stein Kevin Stern Gerald Stewart Pamela Stewart Susan Stitt Peter Stone Ruth Strand Mark Strickland Stephanie Stryk Lucian Suarez Virgil Sundiata Sekou Svoboda Teresa Swenson Cole Swenson Karen Sze Arthur Taggart John Tapscott Stephen Tate James Taylor Henry Thompson Sue Ellen Tillinghast Richard Tretheway Natasha Troupe Quincy Turner Frederick Twitchell Chase Ullman Leslie Updike John Upton Lee Valentine Jean Van Duyn Mona Van Wallagen Michael Van Winckel Nance Vangelisti Paul Vazirani Reetika Villanueva Tino Violi Paul Vogelsang Arthur Voigt Ellen Bryant Voisine Connie Volkmann Karen Wagoner David Wakowski Diane Walcott Derek Waldman Anne Waldner Liz Waldrop Keith Waldrop Rosemaire Wallace Mark Wammo Ward Thom Waring Belle Warren Roseanna Warsh Lewis Waters Michael Watson Ellen Dore Watten Barrett Wederoth Joe Weigl Bruce Weingarten Roger Weiss Theodore Wheeler Susan Wier Dara Wilbur Richard Willard Nancy Williams C. K. Williams Miller Williamson Alan Wilner Eleanor Wojahn David Wood Susan Wormser Baron Wright C. D. Wright Charles Wright Franz Wright Jay Wrigley Robert Yau John Yenser Stephen Young Dean Young Gary Young Bear Ray A. Zarin Cynthia Zimmer Paul Zinnes Harriet Zwieg Martha From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Sep 25 10:26:43 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:26:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets References: <200209250254.g8P2sLm7081773@mx4.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <001001c2649f$93f0ba80$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> When I was once in Baltimore, A man came up to me and cried, "Come, I have eighteen hundred sheep, And we sail on Tuesday's tide". 'If you will sail with me, young man, I'll pay you fifty shillings down; These eighteen hundred sheep I take From barry.spacks at verizon.net Wed Sep 25 10:51:52 2002 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 07:51:52 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Onward from the Juvenile In-Reply-To: <200209250359.g8P3x3620694@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020925074803.009fa210@incoming.verizon.net> >In a message dated 9/24/2002 10:36:25 PM Central Daylight Time, >halvard at earthlink.net writes: >> >>And what does "liking" have to do with anything? Ah, we reach the heart of the matter -- I say potato, you say potaato, let's call the whole thing off. Seriously, just beyond unending "I like / I don't like" real conversation begins. B. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Sep 25 11:21:59 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:21:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020925101839.00bcf448@mail.ilstu.edu> Hal, this of course brings to mind Paul Violi's often heart-wrenching, frequently hilarious, and always witty index poems. Where did you find it? Is there a book entitled _The Art and Life of Glenn Gould_ in which you found this? gabe At 08:38 AM 9/25/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Today, had he not died some twenty years ago, G.G. would >have been seventy. You may have seen this before here, >but . . . Happy Birthday, G, wherever you are. > >Hal > > > >Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of (A Found Poem) > > abandoning of piano considered by > alter egos of > ancestry of > as animal lover > back injury of > boating accident of > book published by > books owned by > Canadian composers recorded by > cars of > chair built for > childhood of > clothing worn by, for warmth > clothing worn by, in performance > competition hated by > composers denigrated by > concert career abandoned by > concert performing disliked by > control of hands lost by > counterpoint as preoccupation of > "creative cheating" by > critics disliked by > critics parodied by > death of > depression suffered by > devotion needed by > as driver > early influences on > eating and drinking habits of > eccentricities of > enemies nicknamed by > fan letters to > film scores by > first concert attended by > first experience of booing by > flying feared by > F minor as key to personality of > fugues analyzed by > games enjoyed by > Grammy won by > grave of > hair of > hands and arms soaked by > hands of, insurance on > hands of, sensitivity in > harmonica studied by > health precautions taken by > health problems of > hedonism disapproved of by > homes of > honors awarded to > as hypochondriac > as iconoclast > hymns loved by > immortality sought by > improvisation distrusted by > inability to analyze own talent of > insomnia suffered by > isolation of > Italian opera disliked by > late-night activity of > lefthandedness of > listening talents of > medication taken by > memorial service for > memorization skills of > money earned by > mystical view of pianist's art held by > need for control as obsession of > newspaper written by (in childhood) > "North" as concept of > pedantry of > persona of > pets of > Philadelphia phobia of > photographs of, described > physical appearance of > physical mannerisms of, while playing > piano's height as concern of > pianos owned by > pianos used by > posture of > press coverage of > privacy guarded by > private life of > as prodigy > prose style of > pseudonyms of > publicity as viewed by > purpose of art as viewed by > as Puritan > reclusiveness of > religion of > reviews of lectures by > reviews of music composed by > reviews of writing by > rivals of > romantic relationship of > sanity of > self-consciousness of > sensitivity to cold of > sensitivity to physical contact of > sexuality of > as showman > shyness of > sight-reading ability of > singing enjoyed by > singing of, as mannerism > solitude as preoccupation of > spiritual explorations by > stock market played by > string quartet composed by > stroke suffered by > summer cottage of > telephone conversations of > tempo as concern of > travel disliked by > unpublished writing of > videotapes owned by > visual imagery in playing of > Western musical tradition as viewed by > work habits of > writing enjoyed by > > >Hal > >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Sep 25 11:32:34 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:32:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Principia Neglecta Poetae Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020925112029.00ab69b0@postoffice.brown.edu> 1. The "world" is a layered turnip. There will never be a simple linear intersection between vectors "world", "recognition", "poet". 2. The neglect of particular poets is a factor of the general neglect of poetry, which is itself a factor of the even more pervasive, constant neglect of the mysterious ambient ether which Wallace Stevens gnomically termed "the poetry of life" (a neglect in which we are all - poets included - accomplices). 3. Recognition(s) emanate from this poetry of life in imponderable, providential ways. The "system" is more chaotic than weather. 4. Fame can be undeserved. Recognition is always deserved - this goes without saying! - Henry: the most abused, neglected, put-upon, flyted, flouted, flip-the-birdded, paranoid poet in the Universe (even MORE SO than you! Ha!) From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Wed Sep 25 12:45:33 2002 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (NMSU) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 09:45:33 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #986 - 10 msgs In-Reply-To: <200209251335.g8PDZ2624821@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: I too am interested in little known or disappeared writers. I proposed a panel for this year's AWP on "The Best Poet You Never Heard Of" but unfortunately, it was not accepted. I was thinking more of contemporary. late career writers who deserved a more national attention; for example, since I have moved to NM, I have met or become familiar with the work of many fantastic writers I had never heard of before. These are people like G. Frumkin, Joe Somoza, and Bobby Byrd. I put out a call for panelists quite late, but I got an overwhelming response. I will keep trying...it does seem like a very important thing to do--introduce writers and teachers to each other's work. Glad, Dennis, that you're doing it at the next AWP. Connie Voisine From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Sep 25 11:59:43 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:59:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets In-Reply-To: <200209250254.g8P2sLm7081773@mx4.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020925102539.015c8828@mail.ilstu.edu> You're right, David. I should have put an "only" in that phrase. I liked your brief mention of Nye's line, which I'd never heard before but is a lovely thought. Hal's found poem brings to mind someone familiar (though never famous) whom I'd like to see more attention given to: Paul Violi. gabe sagree strenuously. For my part, though, when >you say that " it might be important to stop associating the worthwhile with >the familiar," I could be happy if you just added an "only" before "with the >familiar." Otherwise, I think you risk throwing out a lot of Edward >Thomases with the bathwater. > >In any case, I was mostly pressing a different point: that I remain very >interested in poets who were once famous and aren't now, poets (relatively >known & unknown) who I think should be more widely read, etc. I like to >exhange these little lists with other readers, in hopes of expanding my >mental library. > >I don't know about your friends, but I think that to call mine "familiar" >flatters them rather a lot, or else twists the word beyond what it means to >most people. Sure, they're familiar *to me*--but that reminds me of Naomi >Nye's line about the river being famous to the fish. . . . > >======================================== >David Graham >Professor of English, Ripon College >grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, >undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu >======================================= > > >Isn't what I meant, David. The scope you render here is from friends to > >the > >famous. One of hte points I'd like to make is that it might be important > >to > >stop associating the worthwhile with the familiar. You pose > >"our...friends" > >against the "once-famous," both of which are already familiar. Am > >arguing > >for a mode of reading and literary awareness that admits of talent and > >worth being *outside* what is familiar. The term "neglected" implies, to > >my > >mind, "that which oughta become familiar again." > > > >Gabe >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Sep 25 12:07:31 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:07:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Principia Neglecta Poetae In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020925112029.00ab69b0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020925104102.00bcf448@mail.ilstu.edu> Henry, It's been 7 years since my Advanced Extracurricular Latin-and-Mimosas Croquet Class, but I wish to point out what I see as a grammatical problem in your subject line. What you have there is I think "Neglected Foundations of the Poet," whereas "neglected poets" is the chain we've been following. What's more, "poeta, -ae," though masculine, is first declension, so if you wished to write the plural genitive, you'd arrive at "poetarum,": yo, to wit: principia neglectarum poetarum -- foundations of neglected poets. You might render it with that figure of speech known as hyperbaton, which separates words normally put together (in order to make the phrase more elegant), thus: neglectarum principia poetarum -- not a pretty phrase but better than the other. My pedantry may however be flawed. If so, I remain open to correction. Gabe At 11:32 AM 9/25/2002 -0400, you wrote: >1. The "world" is a layered turnip. There will never be a simple linear >intersection between vectors "world", "recognition", "poet". > >2. The neglect of particular poets is a factor of the general neglect of >poetry, which is itself a factor of the even more pervasive, constant >neglect of the mysterious ambient ether which Wallace Stevens gnomically >termed "the poetry of life" (a neglect in which we are all - poets >included - accomplices). > >3. Recognition(s) emanate from this poetry of life in imponderable, >providential ways. The "system" is more chaotic than weather. > >4. Fame can be undeserved. Recognition is always deserved - this goes >without saying! > >- Henry: the most abused, neglected, put-upon, flyted, flouted, >flip-the-birdded, paranoid poet in the Universe (even MORE SO than you! Ha!) > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ccooley at overdomain.com Wed Sep 25 13:08:16 2002 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:08:16 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Have you ever worried In-Reply-To: <200209251601.g8PG12626656@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Have you ever worried that you couldn't see What sort of poet you'd turn out to be When after whiling twenty years away Down in the boiler room of servitude In noise and grease by choice you earn the pay That salves your conscience into quietude And by your labor you had won a wife And children by the way?yet not agreeing That what you'd done should constitute your life Or there was nothing keeping you from being All you never thought you couldn't be But strive and strive to find surconsciously Aghast at every turn of Shakespeare's wit Once you got around to reading it, Might be discovered to your horror to repose Like a spot of dirt upon your person's nose? --Crisman Cooley From jstolzenberg at snet.net Wed Sep 25 13:05:24 2002 From: jstolzenberg at snet.net (jstolzenberg) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:05:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: quote from Gould Message-ID: <003501c264b5$c38c3880$553ffea9@y9fru> "The purpose of art is not the release of a momentary ejection of adrenaline but is, rather, the gradual, lifelong construction of a state of wonder and serenity." --Glenn Gould May we be spared those who would tell us the purpose of art in all circumstances, for all times, for all people -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Sep 25 13:12:56 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:12:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of" In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020925101839.00bcf448@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: The book, Gabe, was *Glenn Gould: A Life and Variations* by Otto Friedrich (Vintage, 1989). The listed items are from the book's index--all under the heading "Glenn Gould." Hal { Hal, this of course brings to mind Paul Violi's often heart-wrenching, { frequently hilarious, and always witty index poems. Where did you find it? { Is there a book entitled _The Art and Life of Glenn Gould_ in which you { found this? { { gabe { { At 08:38 AM 9/25/2002 -0400, you wrote: { >Today, had he not died some twenty years ago, G.G. would { >have been seventy. You may have seen this before here, { >but . . . Happy Birthday, G, wherever you are. { > { >Hal { > { > { > { >Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of (A Found Poem) { > { > abandoning of piano considered by { > alter egos of { > ancestry of { > as animal lover { > back injury of { > boating accident of { > book published by { > books owned by { > Canadian composers recorded by { > cars of { > chair built for { > childhood of { > clothing worn by, for warmth { > clothing worn by, in performance { > competition hated by { > composers denigrated by { > concert career abandoned by { > concert performing disliked by { > control of hands lost by { > counterpoint as preoccupation of { > "creative cheating" by { > critics disliked by { > critics parodied by { > death of { > depression suffered by { > devotion needed by { > as driver { > early influences on { > eating and drinking habits of { > eccentricities of { > enemies nicknamed by { > fan letters to { > film scores by { > first concert attended by { > first experience of booing by { > flying feared by { > F minor as key to personality of { > fugues analyzed by { > games enjoyed by { > Grammy won by { > grave of { > hair of { > hands and arms soaked by { > hands of, insurance on { > hands of, sensitivity in { > harmonica studied by { > health precautions taken by { > health problems of { > hedonism disapproved of by { > homes of { > honors awarded to { > as hypochondriac { > as iconoclast { > hymns loved by { > immortality sought by { > improvisation distrusted by { > inability to analyze own talent of { > insomnia suffered by { > isolation of { > Italian opera disliked by { > late-night activity of { > lefthandedness of { > listening talents of { > medication taken by { > memorial service for { > memorization skills of { > money earned by { > mystical view of pianist's art held by { > need for control as obsession of { > newspaper written by (in childhood) { > "North" as concept of { > pedantry of { > persona of { > pets of { > Philadelphia phobia of { > photographs of, described { > physical appearance of { > physical mannerisms of, while playing { > piano's height as concern of { > pianos owned by { > pianos used by { > posture of { > press coverage of { > privacy guarded by { > private life of { > as prodigy { > prose style of { > pseudonyms of { > publicity as viewed by { > purpose of art as viewed by { > as Puritan { > reclusiveness of { > religion of { > reviews of lectures by { > reviews of music composed by { > reviews of writing by { > rivals of { > romantic relationship of { > sanity of { > self-consciousness of { > sensitivity to cold of { > sensitivity to physical contact of { > sexuality of { > as showman { > shyness of { > sight-reading ability of { > singing enjoyed by { > singing of, as mannerism { > solitude as preoccupation of { > spiritual explorations by { > stock market played by { > string quartet composed by { > stroke suffered by { > summer cottage of { > telephone conversations of { > tempo as concern of { > travel disliked by { > unpublished writing of { > videotapes owned by { > visual imagery in playing of { > Western musical tradition as viewed by { > work habits of { > writing enjoyed by { > { > { >Hal { > { >Halvard Johnson { >=============== { >email: halvard at earthlink.net { >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { > { >_______________________________________________ { >New-Poetry mailing list { >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From Cadaly at aol.com Wed Sep 25 13:14:20 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:14:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets Message-ID: <164.147ca5b5.2ac348ec@aol.com> I was on that prospective panel, and after I'd proposed female Canadian writers [I think after], I became immersed in some of the earlier southwestern and Californian regionalist poetry which gave rise to Connie's forgotten poets: people like Philips Kloss and his wife, who moved from CA to New Mexico and continued to use a Jeffers-like (and Carmel realist visual art) style, but to describe a completely different (arid) landscape, and Chicago Renaissance tuburculars (sp?) and spouses, including Alice Corbin Henderson, who was Assistant editor of Poetry, and Yvor Winters, imagiste. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Sep 25 13:17:11 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:17:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #986 - 10 msgs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Let's hear it for all three, all dear old friends of mine from way back on the shoals of time. Hal "The purpose of art is not the release of a momentary ejection of adrenaline but is, rather, the gradual, lifelong construction of a state of wonder and serenity." --Glenn Gould Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { since I have moved to NM, I have met or become familiar with the work of { many fantastic writers I had never heard of before. These are people like G. { Frumkin, Joe Somoza, and Bobby Byrd. I put out a call for panelists quite { late, but I got an overwhelming response. I will keep trying...it does seem { like a very important thing to do--introduce writers and teachers to each { other's work. Glad, Dennis, that you're doing it at the next AWP. { { Connie Voisine From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Sep 25 13:20:11 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:20:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: quote from Gould In-Reply-To: <003501c264b5$c38c3880$553ffea9@y9fru> Message-ID: "The purpose of art is not the release of a momentary ejection of adrenaline but is, rather, the gradual, lifelong construction of a state of wonder and serenity." --Glenn Gould May we be spared those who would tell us the purpose of art in all circumstances, for all times, for all people ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Not to mention those who don't recognize statements of opinion when they see them. Hal "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be taken and to whom nothing must be given." --Anna Akhmatova Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From dbarone at sjc.edu Wed Sep 25 13:22:23 2002 From: dbarone at sjc.edu (Barone, Dennis) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:22:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect Message-ID: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249001BA182E@sjcmail.sjc.edu> Jim says that the best eventually will get read and tells the story of the person who discovered an old volume of Poe. But I think fiction and poetry is no different than Coke or Pepsi. It all depends on marketing. I thought Alan Golding's From Outlaw to Classic: Canons in American Poetry an excellent study of this question. I read the Tom Bissell essay this morning, and that, too, I thought quite interesting. Black Sparrow's big three authors have moved to HarperCollins and now John Fante can be "sold" -- here's some lines (sorry that when I respond to this list my comments are often fiction rather than poetry based) from the advertising copy for The John Fante Reader: "a voice of his generation" (that's probably news to anyone who studies 1930s literature and would certainly be news to Fante if he were still alive - though he'd be glad to hear it), "irrepressible genius" (curious, since he was pretty much "repressed" for fifty years -- when his best book came out the promotion for it got cut because the publisher was being sued ---- by Adolf Hitler [How's that for bad luck?]), "the important next step in the reintrodution of this influential literary writer" -- another curious comment if, as the ad says earlier, he was "almost unheard of in his lifetime," then how could he be influential? But I'd agree a "reader" is an important step in promotion (not in art). The ad ends by stating that Fante is now "taking his place in the pantheon of twentieth-century American writers." Well, yes, because the place and the author and the pantheon (and the audience, too) have been so very nicely manufactured. Dennis From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Sep 25 13:28:26 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:28:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Principia Neglecta Poetae In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020925104102.00bcf448@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020925112029.00ab69b0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020925130601.00aac2c0@postoffice.brown.edu> Thank you, Dr. Gabe. I stand corrigeranderust. The Principia Neglectarum Poetarum is forthcoming soon (with addenda, corrigenda and pudenda) from Oxford Hyperbaton Press, and will include (in a 5,000-vol. annual Supplermental) a complete (I mean TOTUM-INCLUSUM) list of ALL neglected poets ever, starting with Gully Hok (who wrote the original version of Gilgamesh in a now-indecipherable language called Chucka-Dukka - hey, this is a great poet! Ain't it a shame more folks aren't turned on to his [gender actually unknown] Opus? What a scwewed up litewawy world this is, when folks like Gully Hok get neglected by folks like us! There oughter be a principium!) - Henwy p.s. referendam ad Principium Unum, nota #1A, Exceptionum: Alexander Pushkin. (But then, Pushkin was a cat.) p.p.s referendam ad Principium novum (Quintum): We must not forget the principle known colloquially as "Absorption": wherein, at the extreme summit of litewawy actiwity, the Genius Poet SWALLOWS & ABSORBS an entire age into his or her imaginary solar system, thereby REVERSING the neglect syndrome: an entire society discovers itself a transparent figment of the neglected poet's mind, a mere glassie essence or puff-ball which would dissolve & vanish the instant the poet "neglects" it. This is why, obviously, Shakespeare kept a low profile - he was thoughtfully, generously, delicately maintaining the existence of the Elizabethan Age. From JforJames at aol.com Wed Sep 25 15:35:02 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:35:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect Message-ID: <8d.1ecc10fa.2ac369e6@aol.com> In a message dated 9/25/02 1:23:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dbarone at sjc.edu writes: > im says that the best eventually will get read and tells the story of the > person who discovered an old volume of Poe. But I think fiction and poetry > is no different than Coke or Pepsi. It all depends on marketing. I thought > Alan Golding's From Outlaw to Classic: Canons in American Poetry an > excellent study of this question. I read the Tom Bissell essay this > morning, and that, too, I thought quite interesting. Black Sparrow's big > three authors have moved to HarperCollins and now John Fante can be "sold" > -- here's some lines (sorry that when I respond to this list my comments are > often fiction rather than poetry based) from the advertising copy for The > John Fante Reader: "a voice of his generation" (that's probably news to > anyone who studies 1930s literature and would certainly be news to Fante if > he were still alive - though he'd be glad to hear it), "irrepressible > genius" (curious, since he was pretty much "repressed" for fifty years -- > when his best book came out the promotion for it got cut because the > publisher was being sued ---- by Adolf Hitler [How's that for bad luck?]), > "the important next step in the reintrodution of this influential literary > writer" -- another curious comment if, as the ad says earlier, he was > "almost unheard of in his lifetime," then how could he be influential? But > I'd agree a "reader" is an important step in promotion (not in art). The ad > ends by stating that Fante is now "taking his place in the pantheon of > twentieth-century American writers." Well, yes, because the place and the > author and the pantheon (and the audience, too) have been so very nicely > manufactured. Dennis, I'm not convinced that anything more than a short term, Hollywood-like buzz can be created by marketing alone. Ultimately you have to have a product that appeals to people. Coke & Pepsi are brands...the product is sweetened carbonated water which people seem to like to drink. No amount of marketing could get people to more than taste bottled pond scum. Similarly, Fante will remain a literary footnote unless his books find fans. Not necessarily great numbers of fans, but they must be fans of an influential sort in order to sustain that rep the publisher is touting. Tonight I'm going to hear Jack Gilbert read. He fits nicely under this 'neglected' rubric...esp. when it comes to major prizes and critical attention. Of course in his case it's largely been neglect by his choice. Yet, I've met many poets who are impressed by and who speak reverentially about his work. For some of us, he has the goods. The story about the man finding the Poe volume was really only speaking to "the desire" we have to find and "the excitement" we get when we find (or think we have found) something rare and overlooked (like a unfairly neglected author). Poe when the book, a little pamphlet really, was found (1988) was already world-famous (far from neglected). Incidentally the little book, one of only a dozen or so known to be in existence was purchased for $15 at the book sale and sold for $198,000 at Sotheby's. Now that's a nice return on investment. Jim F From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Sep 25 15:56:59 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:56:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] forgotten writers In-Reply-To: <16b.145ac825.2ac31582@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D91DCCB.29598.4A479A@localhost> What about Witter Bynner? Marcus On 25 Sep 2002 at 9:34, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/24/02 12:29:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dbarone at sjc.edu > writes: > > > Charles Reznikoff. I think that's a good, serious choice. But > > I also think the world is so full of great, really great unread authors > that > > the question is ridiculous. I'm not a believer of the best rising to the > > top. Shit rises. > Dennis, > Charles Reznikoff does seem to be good choice. But I'm not certain > that shit rises, atleast not in the long run. It may be a temporary > phenomenon. > I think, in the long haul, great poets/great poems do find their readership. > I remember years ago in a small town in Massachusetts, a man going > through some books at a church tag sale found a copy of Poe's > self-published Tamerlane & Other Poems. (He bought for pennies > and sold later at auction for thousands) In a certain way this is > our dream as readers: To find a neglected poet. A poet that was there > all the time but was overlooked. A poet whose work is self-evidently great > but was somehow set aside and lost. I think we all want to believe > there is an Emily Dickinson out there. A poet of originality and genius, > who by choice or by circumstance, has not received the attention > she deserves. Who will die in obscurity, be discovered, and become > famous for generations to come. The stuff that myths are made of? > > More likely it is that the lesser poets, the neglected poets, are > the necessary background or the required landscape upon which > the important poets will, in time, find their place and become > our literary landmarks. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Sep 25 16:38:36 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:38:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect In-Reply-To: <8d.1ecc10fa.2ac369e6@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020925152913.015e3c68@mail.ilstu.edu> Hi Jim, two quick points: (1) the purpose (and the history) of marketing is and has been that marketing can *create* desire. It is not there merely to fulfill an already existent desire. Marketeers and economists and business folk have long known this. What's more, sociologists of social capital such as Pierre Bourdieu (there are many others but I think of him especially) have studied the cultural formation of taste and "cultural capital" and Bourdieu makes a convincing case that -- especially when it comes to cultural capital and aesthetics and what's worthy and what's not -- such things are political and social and not platonic matters; (2) I don't understand how you can call Jack Gilbert -- winner of the Yale Younger Prize when it was still considered an important prize to win (something it's really not anymore) -- "neglected." He hasn't been neglected by most non-male non-white non-anthologized non-coastal non-urban standards. We live daily here in the US, esp nowadays, with the obvious attempts by those with great cultural capital to manufacture political consensus. The manufacture of aesthetic consensus is no different. Gabe At 03:35 PM 9/25/2002 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/25/02 1:23:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dbarone at sjc.edu >writes: > > > im says that the best eventually will get read and tells the story of the > > person who discovered an old volume of Poe. But I think fiction and > poetry > > is no different than Coke or Pepsi. It all depends on marketing. I >thought > > Alan Golding's From Outlaw to Classic: Canons in American Poetry an > > excellent study of this question. I read the Tom Bissell essay this > > morning, and that, too, I thought quite interesting. Black Sparrow's big > > three authors have moved to HarperCollins and now John Fante can be "sold" > > -- here's some lines (sorry that when I respond to this list my comments >are > > often fiction rather than poetry based) from the advertising copy for The > > John Fante Reader: "a voice of his generation" (that's probably news to > > anyone who studies 1930s literature and would certainly be news to > Fante if > > he were still alive - though he'd be glad to hear it), "irrepressible > > genius" (curious, since he was pretty much "repressed" for fifty years -- > > when his best book came out the promotion for it got cut because the > > publisher was being sued ---- by Adolf Hitler [How's that for bad luck?]), > > "the important next step in the reintrodution of this influential literary > > writer" -- another curious comment if, as the ad says earlier, he was > > "almost unheard of in his lifetime," then how could he be > influential? But > > I'd agree a "reader" is an important step in promotion (not in art). The >ad > > ends by stating that Fante is now "taking his place in the pantheon of > > twentieth-century American writers." Well, yes, because the place and the > > author and the pantheon (and the audience, too) have been so very nicely > > manufactured. > >Dennis, >I'm not convinced that anything more than a short term, Hollywood-like >buzz can be created by marketing alone. Ultimately you have to have >a product that appeals to people. Coke & Pepsi are brands...the product >is sweetened carbonated water which people seem to like to drink. >No amount of marketing could get people to more than taste >bottled pond scum. Similarly, Fante will remain a literary footnote >unless his books find fans. Not necessarily great numbers of fans, >but they must be fans of an influential sort in order to sustain that >rep the publisher is touting. >Tonight I'm going to hear Jack Gilbert read. He fits nicely under >this 'neglected' rubric...esp. when it comes to major prizes and >critical attention. Of course in his case it's largely been neglect >by his choice. Yet, I've met many poets who are impressed by >and who speak reverentially about his work. For some of us, >he has the goods. > >The story about the man finding the Poe volume was really only >speaking to "the desire" we have to find and "the excitement" we get >when we find (or think we have found) something rare and overlooked >(like a unfairly neglected author). Poe when the book, a little pamphlet >really, was found (1988) was already world-famous (far from neglected). >Incidentally the little book, one of only a dozen or so known to be in >existence was purchased for $15 at the book sale and sold for $198,000 >at Sotheby's. Now that's a nice return on investment. >Jim F >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From dbarone at sjc.edu Wed Sep 25 16:50:12 2002 From: dbarone at sjc.edu (Barone, Dennis) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 16:50:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Three Additional Thoughts Message-ID: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249001BA1833@sjcmail.sjc.edu> 1) Pound Eliot Stevens Williams -- not so for fiction -- any four with such influence -- perhaps because fewer readers for poetry than for fiction so a few poets pushed to unquestionable top and yet (mistakenly?) poetry has reputation as more open than fiction -- if some one names Hemingway i'd say no that he becomes one for many to laugh at and no one dare laugh at Pound Eliot Stevens Williams 2) When a graduate student researching my dissertation I would often wander from my topic while in libraries and archives. One day at the Historical Society of Pennsylvania I came across a packet of poems that were in the wrong place and not listed in the manuscript catalogue. Turned out to be the largest manuscript collection of an early colonial "American" poet. The leading scholar in this field, David Shields, has written about these poems and published some of them. But who has ever heard of Henry Brooke? The small audience that delights in poetry would love the discovery of a forgotten, lost, neglected Eliot or Stevens, but Brooke, as a citizen of Pennsylvania's early years, wrote in a seventeenth-century colonial style. Now I think his "Ballad of an Eagle" is kind of interesting and yet . . . 3) Last week I read an essay on Paul Auster in the current issue of Contemporary Literature, especially the footnote about my work on Auster. The author says the growth in Auster scholarship predicted by Barone hasn't happened. I agree. Isn't this odd, though. Here's an author of quality, I'd say, whose works have both profundity and accessibility, who publishes often and with large promotional backing and reviews everywhere, an author who has even the backing of Hollywood and yet an almost then-year old book remains pretty much the only book on this author. John Taggart tells me that they've just now -- not decades ago -- put up an histoical marker for Marianne Moore in Carlisle, PA and things move foreward here in Hartford for a Stevens monument. When I mention Stevens to literate local people, adult professionals (not first year college students) 3 times out of 4 they say "who?" Meanwhile at the Mark Twain Memoral there's a 22 million dollar expansion in the works (partly on land taken from Hartford Public High School). Drink Dasani. -- Dennis From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Sep 25 17:56:57 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 17:56:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins In-Reply-To: <003501c263b9$d8df2f00$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> Message-ID: <3D91F8E9.17397.B820B8@localhost> > And Tad shared this strategy at a Connecticut Poetry Festival last year, and > I have since played with words in a similar way. I made a list of Collins's > titles, ran them through Babelfish's translater, and thus this poem was > born: Yabbut, what's the point? How does that kind of automated word-play signify as art of any kind? Would you say that an automated lathe turning chair legs is making art, too, if the operator said that he was making art instead of chair legs? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From chryss at silcom.com Wed Sep 25 18:05:46 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:05:46 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins In-Reply-To: <3D91F8E9.17397.B820B8@localhost> Message-ID: English to German and Back Via Spain Is Yabbut, what the point? How does it make means the class automatizado of the game of the word as well as art of the type? Would it say that an around automatizado legs of the chair, that turns the art make, also, to you if the operario said, made that it the art instead of legs of the chair? (Answer: it may not be art, but it's entertainment!) > From: "Marcus Bales" > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 17:56:57 -0400 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins > > Yabbut, what's the point? How does that kind of automated word-play > signify as art of any kind? Would you say that an automated lathe > turning chair legs is making art, too, if the operator said that he > was making art instead of chair legs? From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Sep 25 18:25:20 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 17:25:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] does glut beget neglect? Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F0B@mail.ripon.edu> The balkanization of American poetry in the past few decades is notable. In a very real sense, no one reader can claim to be up on the entire field. I've seen estimates ranging from 1000 to 2000 new books of poetry appearing yearly; multiply that by even 5 or 10 years, and you realize that no one could keep up even if they wanted to. One result is that it's pretty common to run across quite well read people who simply haven't read this or that notable poet. Friend of mine mentioned the other day not having read much, if any, poetry by Robert Pinsky. They don't get much more famous than Pinsky, do they? And my friend is someone who reads a *lot* of poetry, mind you. There's just so much out there that even a big name like Pinsky can easily get lost. In that sense, we're all neglected. Not sure what, if anything, this adds up to. Maybe the point is that it *doesn't* add up, and most generalized pronouncements about contemporary poetry should be understood in that light. Another friend once joked that he never read any poetry that had appeared above 14th Street in Manhattan. He's a lot more well read than that, but I regularly stare at him blankly or heave a sigh as he sings the praises of Gustaf Sobin or Leslie Scalapino. He does the same when I try to interest him in Brendan Galvin. It's more or less a standoff. As a teacher I've long since noticed that my students seldom are aware even in the dimmest sense of any poet's relative degree of fame. This term I'm teaching books by Lucille Clifton and John Balaban, for example, and I'm sure most students won't be aware, until I tell them, that one of them is pretty famous. In another class I asked 25 students how many had ever read any Toni Morrison, and the answer was about 4--all of it assigned in previous classes, of course. Is Toni Morrison neglected? Well, if so, I guess that's something she and I have in common. When asked the inevitable who-to-read question at readings or wherever, I generally trot out one of my personal roster of poets-who-should-be-better-known. Lately these have included Robert Morgan, Brendan Galvin, Lucia Perillo, Marianne Boruch, and Frank X. Gaspar. All of the above have been published by prestige presses, won important awards, etc. But I'd bet a month's salary that none of my students would recognize any of those names. And I'll bet that more than a few readers of this paragraph have not read much, if anything, by some of those poets. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: JforJames at aol.com > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 9:11 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] From Ai to Sze, does glut beget neglect? (long) > > Nearly 700 living American poets ('American' being > a loose term, and 'living' being a changeable state, > and with at least twice as many other worthy of mention > not on this very randonly compiled list).... From Arielpf123 at aol.com Wed Sep 25 18:52:26 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:52:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] does glut beget neglect? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/25/02 6:26:46 PM, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: << And I'll bet that more than a few readers of this paragraph have not read much, if anything, by some of those poets. >> Have read ALL of Brendan Galvin and two books of Frank Gaspars....only individual poems of Boruch and Perillo....but since we seem to have similar tastes...I'll make tem next. patf From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Sep 25 18:53:51 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:53:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] does glut beget neglect? In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F0B@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: Speaking of which, did anyone see the name of a poet of any stripe on the list of new McArthur fellows? I'm sure there are plenty of poets I haven't even heard the names of. Hal "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be taken and to whom nothing must be given." --Anna Akhmatova Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { The balkanization of American poetry in the past few decades is notable. In { a very real sense, no one reader can claim to be up on the entire field. { I've seen estimates ranging from 1000 to 2000 new books of poetry appearing { yearly; multiply that by even 5 or 10 years, and you realize that no one { could keep up even if they wanted to. { { One result is that it's pretty common to run across quite well read people { who simply haven't read this or that notable poet. Friend of mine mentioned { the other day not having read much, if any, poetry by Robert Pinsky. They { don't get much more famous than Pinsky, do they? And my friend is someone { who reads a *lot* of poetry, mind you. There's just so much out there that { even a big name like Pinsky can easily get lost. In that sense, we're all { neglected. { { Not sure what, if anything, this adds up to. Maybe the point is that it { *doesn't* add up, and most generalized pronouncements about contemporary { poetry should be understood in that light. Another friend once joked that { he never read any poetry that had appeared above 14th Street in Manhattan. { He's a lot more well read than that, but I regularly stare at him blankly or { heave a sigh as he sings the praises of Gustaf Sobin or Leslie Scalapino. { He does the same when I try to interest him in Brendan Galvin. It's more or { less a standoff. { { As a teacher I've long since noticed that my students seldom are aware even { in the dimmest sense of any poet's relative degree of fame. This term I'm { teaching books by Lucille Clifton and John Balaban, for example, and I'm { sure most students won't be aware, until I tell them, that one of them is { pretty famous. In another class I asked 25 students how many had ever read { any Toni Morrison, and the answer was about 4--all of it assigned in { previous classes, of course. Is Toni Morrison neglected? Well, if so, I { guess that's something she and I have in common. { { When asked the inevitable who-to-read question at readings or wherever, I { generally trot out one of my personal roster of { poets-who-should-be-better-known. Lately these have included Robert Morgan, { Brendan Galvin, Lucia Perillo, Marianne Boruch, and Frank X. Gaspar. All of { the above have been published by prestige presses, won important awards, { etc. But I'd bet a month's salary that none of my students would recognize { any of those names. And I'll bet that more than a few readers of this { paragraph have not read much, if anything, by some of those poets. { { ============================================ { David Graham { Professor of English, Ripon College { grahamd at ripon.edu { Home Page: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html { My Poetry Library: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html { { "We're writing the book on quality: personal, { undergraduate education." { Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu { ============================================ { { { > ---------- { > From: JforJames at aol.com { > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 9:11 AM { > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > Subject: [New-Poetry] From Ai to Sze, does glut beget neglect? (long) { > { > Nearly 700 living American poets ('American' being { > a loose term, and 'living' being a changeable state, { > and with at least twice as many other worthy of mention { > not on this very randonly compiled list).... { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Sep 25 20:18:38 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:18:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: neglect Message-ID: <200209260017.g8Q0HWVB080972@mx17.mx.voyager.net> In the realm of selling literature, I'm wondering if in the long run marketing can *sustain* desire, though. Presumably one day Billy Collins will not be around to barnstorm college campuses, appear before Congress, give interviews, desert his longstanding publisher for one with deeper pockets, & otherwise promote his brand name. Over the long haul, won't the ultimate decision on his poetry be made the way it always has been, by readers, editors, teachers et al. deciding that the work is or isn't worth paying attention to? Is it marketing alone, or even mainly, that sustains in readers a desire, say, for the work of Walt Whitman and not John Greenleaf Whittier? ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= >Hi Jim, two quick points: (1) the purpose (and the history) of marketing is >and has been that marketing can *create* desire. It is not there merely to >fulfill an already existent desire. Marketeers and economists and business >folk have long known this. What's more, sociologists of social capital such >as Pierre Bourdieu (there are many others but I think of him especially) >have studied the cultural formation of taste and "cultural capital" and >Bourdieu makes a convincing case that -- especially when it comes to >cultural capital and aesthetics and what's worthy and what's not -- such >things are political and social and not platonic matters; (2) I don't >understand how you can call Jack Gilbert -- winner of the Yale Younger >Prize when it was still considered an important prize to win (something >it's really not anymore) -- "neglected." He hasn't been neglected by most >non-male non-white non-anthologized non-coastal non-urban standards. > >We live daily here in the US, esp nowadays, with the obvious attempts by >those with great cultural capital to manufacture political consensus. The >manufacture of aesthetic consensus is no different. > >Gabe > From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Sep 25 20:21:38 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:21:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] does glut beget neglect? Message-ID: <200209260020.g8Q0KVq0074813@mx1.mx.voyager.net> >Have read ALL of Brendan Galvin and two books of Frank Gaspars....only >individual poems of Boruch and Perillo....but since we seem to have similar >tastes...I'll make tem next. > >patf Aha! My campaign as Tastemaker of American Poetry marches forward, one reader at a time! Thanks, Pat. David ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From Poemlady at cox.net Wed Sep 25 19:55:30 2002 From: Poemlady at cox.net (Poemlady) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:55:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EF5@mail.ripon.edu> <004501c2631f$e91504c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <003501c263b9$d8df2f00$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> <002001c26445$8a99a000$6a864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <000001c264f1$1e87afe0$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> Thanks, Ganesha. Yes, it's a great technique to get kids to break out of their typical structures, their every-day syntax. Thanks, Tad, for teaching this to me, and I know that my 8th graders will eventually want to thank you too! Audrey From Poemlady at cox.net Wed Sep 25 19:59:44 2002 From: Poemlady at cox.net (Poemlady) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:59:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dodge Festival References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EF5@mail.ripon.edu> <004501c2631f$e91504c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <003501c263b9$d8df2f00$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> <002001c26445$8a99a000$6a864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <000101c264f1$24b91340$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> Just curious...how many of you attended the Geraldine Dodge Poetry Festival in Waterloo, NJ. this past weekend? It was quite the happening........four Poet Laureates there at the same time, and an impressive list of featured poets. Li-Young Li gave an impressive talk on craft, Mark Doty was his thoughtful and articulate self, Kunitz was awesome! I looked at him and realized that I still have plenty of time (I hope) to enjoy poetry after I finish the MFA I just started at the ripe old age of 52 this summer! It's not too late :) Audrey From sondheim at panix.com Wed Sep 25 21:52:42 2002 From: sondheim at panix.com (Alan Sondheim) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] query about acting In-Reply-To: <200209251335.g8PDZ5624831@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Query - has anyone written on the relationship between 19th-century poetry and acting styles? I'm thinking Sarah Bernhardt, Edwin Booth, Lillian Russell, Lily Langtry, Le Jeune, etc.? - Alan - Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim at panix.com From reneea at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 25 22:26:21 2002 From: reneea at bellatlantic.net (Renee Ashley) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:26:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dodge Festival References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EF5@mail.ripon.edu> <004501c2631f$e91504c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <003501c263b9$d8df2f00$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> <002001c26445$8a99a000$6a864cca@JROSS2> <000101c264f1$24b91340$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> Message-ID: <001901c26504$1cd52340$0e9e598a@oemcomputer> HI all, I did get to see Heather McHugh talk on craft -- and it was incredible. She's amazing and articulate and hysterically funny. Brilliant every time. Renee Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Poemlady" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 7:59 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Dodge Festival > Just curious...how many of you attended the Geraldine Dodge Poetry Festival > in Waterloo, NJ. this past weekend? It was quite the happening........four > Poet Laureates there at the same time, and an impressive list of featured > poets. Li-Young Li gave an impressive talk on craft, Mark Doty was his > thoughtful and articulate self, Kunitz was awesome! I looked at him and > realized that I still have plenty of time (I hope) to enjoy poetry after I > finish the MFA I just started at the ripe old age of 52 this summer! It's > not too late :) > Audrey > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Sep 25 23:20:32 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:20:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily Message-ID: <200209260319.g8Q3JQpF027106@mx4.mx.voyager.net> Has anyone else heard of a web site called Verse Daily? I just learned of it today. http://www.versedaily.org/ They feature, like Poetry Daily, a new poem each day. Poems are also archived, and there are various other features. And in fact the whole thing highly resembles Poetry Daily. Today's poem is by John Brehm. I haven't explored the archives yet, but this looks to be a very nice site. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From chryss at silcom.com Thu Sep 26 00:06:35 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:06:35 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily In-Reply-To: <200209260319.g8Q3JQpF027106@mx4.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: There was an article about them on MobyLive.com awhile back. . . Does anyone have the exact URL for the archived article? > From: "David Graham" > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:20:32 -0500 > To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > Subject: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily > > Has anyone else heard of a web site called Verse Daily? I just learned of > it today. > > http://www.versedaily.org/ > > They feature, like Poetry Daily, a new poem each day. Poems are also > archived, and there are various other features. And in fact the whole thing > highly resembles Poetry Daily. > > Today's poem is by John Brehm. I haven't explored the archives yet, but > this looks to be a very nice site. > > ======================================== > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ======================================= > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Sep 26 00:21:54 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 23:21:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily Message-ID: <200209260420.g8Q4KlBv047244@mx1.mx.voyager.net> >There was an article about them on MobyLive.com awhile back. . . Does anyone >have the exact URL for the archived article? > Well, I didn't, but now I do, courtesy of Google: http://www.mobylives.com/PD_vs_VD.html Thanks for the tip, Chryss. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu Sep 26 00:21:27 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:21:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily Message-ID: <135.14ef5a5f.2ac3e547@aol.com> They've been terrific to Tupelo Press poets. Aimee Nezhukumatathil, David Hernandez, Amy England, Natasha Saje, and a translation by Matthew Zapruder. So I'm a big fan. Not that this is a plug or anything. Not here in Ricks. Jeffrey Levine In a message dated 9/26/2002 12:08:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chryss at silcom.com writes: > There was an article about them on MobyLive.com awhile back. . . Does anyone > have the exact URL for the archived article? > > > > From: "David Graham" > > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:20:32 -0500 > > To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily > > > > Has anyone else heard of a web site called Verse Daily? I just learned > of > > it today. > > > > http://www.versedaily.org/ > > > > They feature, like Poetry Daily, a new poem each day. Poems are also > > archived, and there are various other features. And in fact the whole > thing > > highly resembles Poetry Daily. > > > > Today's poem is by John Brehm. I haven't explored the archives yet, but > > this looks to be a very nice site. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Sep 26 00:22:14 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:22:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] query about acting Message-ID: <93.23ed8d39.2ac3e576@cs.com> In a message dated 9/25/2002 8:54:00 PM Central Daylight Time, sondheim at panix.com writes: > > Query - has anyone written on the relationship between 19th-century poetry > and acting styles? I'm thinking Sarah Bernhardt, Edwin Booth, Lillian > Russell, Lily Langtry, Le Jeune, etc.? - > > Alan - Nothing this particular, but William Pritchard has a good analysis of Yeats's "self-dramatization" in his book of essays on the modern poets. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Sep 26 00:25:36 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 23:25:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [imitationpoetics] Announcing VeRT issue #7 / Imitation, Homage, & tHE BAd Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020925232511.0158ae00@mail.ilstu.edu> >+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + > >Announcing VeRT issue #7 / Imitation, Homage, & tHE BAd > > [http://www.litvert.com] > > >mark mcmanus, Stephanie Young, Spencer Selby, Rodrigo Toscano, >Aaron Belz, David Hess, Kenneth Tanemura, James Chapson, Gary >Sullivan, Cynthia Sailers, Mark DuCharme, Brooks Johnson, Rachel Loden, >Ben Lerner, Ethan Paquin, John Bradley, K. Silem Mohammad, >David Hadbawnik, Claire Barbetti, Rodney Koeneke, Helen Ruggieri, >Chris Glomski, Kevin Gallagher, Andrew Felsinger, Andrew Goldfarb, >Rod Riesco, Ken Rumble, Dodie Bellamy as Edward C. Edwards, >David Braden, Christopher Martin, Ryan and Jacob, Gabriel Gudding, >Patrick Herron, Geoffrey Gatza, Kari Edwards, Del Ray Cross, >Barbara Joan Tiger Bass, Jeff Harrison, Noah Gordon... > >Kent Johnson: Prosthesis of PomPom into VeRT > >A Nation of Poets: Writings from the Poetry Workshops of Nicaragua, >and Interview w/ Ernesto Cardenal by Kent Johnson > >Dale Smith: Interliner/Federico Garc?a Lorca's Poet in New York > >Excerpts from Cries in the New Wilderness: from the Files of the Moscow >Institute of Atheism by Mikhail Epstein > >George Kalamaras & Eric Baus: Births Incurred/your recently collected saliva > >Jono Schneider: On Literary Silence > >Dale Smith Reviews Jenny Boully's The Body > >David Hadbawnik Reviews Dale Smith's The Flood & The Garden. > >Edited by Andrew Felsinger w/ Additional Ambiance provided by Jono Schneider > >================================================== > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to imitationpoetics as: gmguddi at ilstu.edu >List Info: >http://listserv.unc.edu/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=ImitationPoetics From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Sep 26 00:40:41 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:40:41 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] forgotten writers References: <16b.145ac825.2ac31582@aol.com> Message-ID: <003a01c26516$e0f0d280$4b864cca@JROSS2> While I agree wholeheartedly with what you say, and defend your right to say it to the death, it would be wonderful for these literary treasures to be acknowledged in their own lifetimes. Most starve in many ways. As this friend pointed out to me after going through many poetry anthologies decades old (in fact, some over a century old), most have been forgotten, even though feted during their lifetimes. It's the obscure ones of quality, often unrecognised while living, or regarded with distrust by mainstream publishers, who survive. (Just look at Baudelaire in this regard ... At least he had an income to play around on, though. sigh. Hell, Blake wasn't well-liked during his lifetime, either.) Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] forgotten writers > In a message dated 9/24/02 12:29:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dbarone at sjc.edu > writes: > > > Charles Reznikoff. I think that's a good, serious choice. But > > I also think the world is so full of great, really great unread authors > that > > the question is ridiculous. I'm not a believer of the best rising to the > > top. Shit rises. > Dennis, > Charles Reznikoff does seem to be good choice. But I'm not certain > that shit rises, atleast not in the long run. It may be a temporary > phenomenon. > I think, in the long haul, great poets/great poems do find their readership. > I remember years ago in a small town in Massachusetts, a man going > through some books at a church tag sale found a copy of Poe's > self-published Tamerlane & Other Poems. (He bought for pennies > and sold later at auction for thousands) In a certain way this is > our dream as readers: To find a neglected poet. A poet that was there > all the time but was overlooked. A poet whose work is self-evidently great > but was somehow set aside and lost. I think we all want to believe > there is an Emily Dickinson out there. A poet of originality and genius, > who by choice or by circumstance, has not received the attention > she deserves. Who will die in obscurity, be discovered, and become > famous for generations to come. The stuff that myths are made of? > > More likely it is that the lesser poets, the neglected poets, are > the necessary background or the required landscape upon which > the important poets will, in time, find their place and become > our literary landmarks. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Sep 26 00:43:01 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:43:01 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Ai to Sze, does glut beget neglect? (long) References: Message-ID: <004e01c26517$33782440$4b864cca@JROSS2> Yes, but can you dance to it? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 10:11 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] From Ai to Sze, does glut beget neglect? (long) Nearly 700 living American poets ('American' being a loose term, and 'living' being a changeable state, and with at least twice as many other worthy of mention not on this very randonly compiled list).... Ackerman Diane Adair Virginia Hamilton Addonizio Kim Afaa Michael Agoos Julia Ai Alcosser Sandra Aleshire Jane Alexander Elizabeth Alexie Sherman Algarin Miguel Alison Funk Allen Dick Alvarez Julie Anderson Doug Anderson Jack Andrews Bruce Andrews Nin Angel Ralph Angelou Maya Ansel Talvikki Antler Applebaum Philip Argueros Jack Armantrout Rae Ashbery John Ashley Renee Baca Jimmy Santiago Baker David Balaban John Balakian Peter Bang Mary Jo Baraka Amiri Barks Coleman Barnes Jim Barnstone Aliki Barone Dennis Barrax Gerald Barresi Dorothy Battin Wendy Bauer Bruce Bawer Bruce Beasley Bruce Beatty Paul Becker Robin Behn Robin Belieu Erin Bell Marvin Bellit Ben Benedikt Michael Bensko John Berg Stephen Bernstein Charles Berry Wendell Berssenbrugge Mei-Mei Bialosky Jill Bidart Frank Bierds Linda Black Sophie Cabot Blaser Robin Blasing Randy Bloch Chana Blumenthal Michael Bly Robert Boisseau Michelle Bolt Tom Bond Bruce Booselar Laure-Anne Booth Philip Boruch Marianne Boss Laura Bottoms David Bowen Kevin Bowman Catherine Bradley George Brainard Joe Brock-Broido Lucie Bromige David Brosman Catherine Savage Broumas Olga Brown Kurt Brown Stephanie Brown Michael Bruchac Joseph Bryan Sharon Buckley Christopher Budy Alexandra Hollander Burkard Michael Burns Ralph Campo Rafael Carpenter William Carruth Hayden Casey Michael Cassells Cyrus Castillo Ana Cecil Richard Cedering Siv Cervantes Lorna Dee Chappell Fred Cherry Kelly Chin Justin Chin Marilyn Chitwood Michael Christopher Nicholas Cisneros Sandra Citino David Clark Tom Clary Killarny Clewell David Clifton Lucille Clover Joshua Cofer Judith Ortiz Cole Henri Cole Norma Coleman Wanda Collier Michael Collins Billy Collins Martha Collins Michael Connelly Gillian Cooley Peter Coolidge Clark Cooper Jane Corbett William Cording Robert Cordrescu Andre Corman Cid Corn Alfred Cortez Jayne Cox Mark Cramer Steve Crase Douglas Creeley Robert Cruz Victor Hernandez Dacey Phillip Dahlen Beverly Dana Robert Daniels Jim Daniels Kate Danley Gayle Darragh Tina Davidson Michael Davis William Virgil Davison Peter Day Cort Dennis Carl Dent Tory Deppe Theodore Derricotte Toi Digges Deborah DiPalma Ray DiPiero W. S. DiPrima Diane Disch Tom Djanikian Gregory Dobyns Stephen Dodd Wayne Doris Stacy Doty Mark Dove Rita Dubiago Sharon Dubie Norman Duemer Joseph Dugan Alan Duhamel Denise Dunn Stephen Dupleissis Rachel Blau Eady Cornelius Early Gerald Eberhart Richard Economu George Edson Russell Ehrhart W. D. Emanual Lynn Endrezze Anita Erdrich Louise Eshleman Clayton Espada Martin Fagan Kathy Fairchild B. H. Ferlinghetti Lawrence Ferry David Field Edward Finch Annie Fincke Gary Finkel Donald Foerester Richard Forche Carolyn Ford Charles Henri Foster Sesshu Freibert Stuart Friman Alice Frost Carol Frost Richard Fulton Alice Funk Alison Funkhouser Erica Galassi Jonathon Gallagher Tess Galvin James Galvin Brendan Gander Forrest Garrison Deborah Gerstler Amy Gibbons Reginald Gibbs Robert Gibson Margaret Gilbert Jack Gilbert Sandra M. Gildner Gary Gioia Dana Giovanni Niki Giscombe C.S. Gizzi Michael Gizzi Peter Glancy Diane Glaser Elton Gl?ck Louise Godfrey John Goedicke Patricia Goldbarth Albert Goldberg Beckian Fritz Gonzalez Ray Gorham Sarah Graham Jorie Graham David Grahn Judy Greene Jeffrey Greger Deborah Gregerson Linda Gregg Linda Grenier Robert Grosholz Emily Grosman Alan Guest Barbara Gunn Thom Gwynn R.S. Hacker Marilyn Hadas Rachel Hagedorn Jessica Hahn Susan Haines John Hall Donald Hall Daniel Hall James Baker Halliday Mark Halperin Mark Halpern Daniel Hamby Barbara Hamer Forrest Hamill Sam Hanzlicek C.G. Harjo Joy Harmon William Harper Michael S. Harrison Jeffrey Harrison Jim Harryman Carla Haskins Lola Hass Robert Haug James Haxton Brooks Hecht Anthony Heffernan Michael Hejinian Lyn Heller Michael Hemming Barbara Herrera Juan Felipe Hershon Robert Heyen William Hicok Bob Hilbery Conrad Hildebidle John Hillman Brenda Hine Daryl Hirsch Edward Hirschfield Jane Hirschman Jack Hoagland Tony Hoffman Michael Hogan Linda Holden Jonathon Hollander John Hollo Anselm Holman Bob Holmes Janet Hongo Garrett Hoover Paul Hopes David Howard Richard Howe Susan Howe Fanny Howe Marie Howells Christopher Howes Barbara Hudgins Andrew Hummer T.R. Hunt Erica Irwin Mark Jackson Major Jackson Richard Jacobik Gray Jacobsen Josephine Janowitz Phylis Jarman Mark Johnson Peter Johnson Denis Jones Richard Jones Rodney Jordan June Joris Pierre Joseph Lawrence Justice Donald Karr Mary Kasdorf Julia Kasischke Laura Keelan Claudia Keller David Kelly Robert Kelly Bridget Pegeen Kennedy X. J. Kenney Richard Kevin Stein Kinnell Galway Kinsolving Susan Kirby David Kitchen Judith Kizer Carolyn Kloefkorn William Knoepfle John Knott Bill Koch Kenneth Koertge Ron Koestenbaum Wayne Koethe John Komunyakaa Yusef Kooser Ted Kowit Steve Kryger Joanne Kumin Maxime Kunitz Stanley Kuzma Gregg Laing R.D. Lake Paul Lamantia Philip Langland Joseph Larkin Joan Lauterbach Ann Laux Dorianne Lea Sydney Lee Li-Young Lee David LeGuinn Ursula Lehman David Leithauser Brad Levin Dana Levine Philip Levine Jeffrey Levine Mark Lieberman Lawrence Lifshin Lyn Lima Frank Lind Michael Lisick Beth Liu Timothy Lloyd Margaret Logan William Lombardo Gian Long Robert Long Robert Hill Longenbach James Lopate Philip Ludvigson Susan Lux Thomas Lynch Thomas Mackey Nathanial MacLow Jackson Major Clarence major devorah Makuck Peter Mali Taylor Marchant Fred Mariani Paul Martin Charles Martinez Dionisio D. Marvin Cate Mason Dave Mathews Harry Mathis Cleopatra Matthias John Mayer Bernadette Mazur Gail McBride. Mekeel McCarriston Linda McClatchy J. D. McDaniel Jeff McDonald Walter McDowell Robert McFee Michael McGrath Campbell McGrath Michael McHugh Heather McKeon Tom McKuen Rod McMahon Lynne McMamus James McMichael James McMorris Mark McNair Wesley McPherson Sandra Mead Jane Meek Jay Meinke Peter Meltzer David Meredith William Merrill Christopher Merwin W. S. Metras Gary Miller E. Ethebert Milosz Czelaw Mitchell Roger Mitchell Susan Momaday N. Scott Moore Honor Moore Todd Mora Pat Morgan Frederick Morgan Robert Morris Tracie Morris Herbert Moss Thylias Moxley Jennifer Mullen Harryette Muller Lisel Mura David Muske Carol Myers Jack Nathan Leonard Nelson Marilyn Norris Kathleen Nurkse D. Nye Naomi Shahib Ochester Ed Olds Sharon Oles Carole Oliver Mary Olsen Tillie Olsen Toby Olsen William Orlen Steve Orr Gregory Ortiz Simon Osman Jena Ostriker Alicia Owen Maureen Owens Rochelle Pack Robert Padgett Ron Paino Frankie Paley Grace Palmer Michael Pankey Eric Pape Greg Parini Jay Parker Alan Michael Pastan Linda Patterson G.E. Peacock Molly Perdomo Willie Perillo Lucia Perlman Bob Pershik Simon Peters Robert Phillips Carl Phillips Robert Piercy Marge Pinsky Robert Plumly Stanley Ponsot Marie Powell D. A. Pratt Minnie Bruce Price Reynolds Prunty Wyatt Raab Lawrence Rafferty Charles Ragan James Ramke Bin Rankine Claudia Ras Barbara Ray David Rector Liam Redmond Eugene Reed Ishmael Renegade D.J. Rettalack Joan Revell Donald Rice Stan Rich Adrienne Richardson James Rios Alberto Rivard Carter Rivard David Robinson Kit Rodefer Stephen Rodriguez Adelia Rodriquez Luis Rogers Pattiann Rohrer Matthew Romveldt David Ronk Martha Rose Wendy Rosenberg Liz Ruark Gibbons Rudman Mark Ruefle Mary Rutsala Vern Ryan Kay Ryan Michael Sadoff Ira Salter Mary Jo Sanchez Sonia Sandy Stephen Saner Reg Santos Sherod Sapphire Savageau Cheryl Scalapino Leslie Scates Maxine Schnackenberg Gertrude Schwartz Howard Schwartz Lloyd Schwartz Lynn Sharon Seidel Frederick Seidman Hugh Seiferle Rebecca Serchuk Peter Seth Vikram Shange Ntozake Shapiro Alan Shapiro David Sheck Laurie Shellnut Eve Shelton Richard Shepard Reginald Shirley Adelia Shomer Enid Shore Jane Short Gary Sia Beau Siebles Tim Sikelianos Eleni Silex Edgar Gabriel Silko Leslie Marmon Silliman Ron Simic Charles Simmerman Jim Simon Maurya Simpson Louis Sirowitz Hal Skinner Jeffrey Skinner Knute Skloot Floyd Slavitt David Sleigh Tom Smith Dave Smith Patricia Smith Charlie Smith R.T. Smith William Jay Smith Marc Smith Rod Snodgrass W.D. Snow Carol Snyder Gary Sobin Gustaf Somer Jason Song Cathy Sorrentino Gilbert Soto Gary Southwick Marcia Spacks Barry Spahr Juliana Spires Elizabeth Spivack Kathleen St. John David Stallings A.E. Stanton Maura Steele Timothy Stein Kevin Stern Gerald Stewart Pamela Stewart Susan Stitt Peter Stone Ruth Strand Mark Strickland Stephanie Stryk Lucian Suarez Virgil Sundiata Sekou Svoboda Teresa Swenson Cole Swenson Karen Sze Arthur Taggart John Tapscott Stephen Tate James Taylor Henry Thompson Sue Ellen Tillinghast Richard Tretheway Natasha Troupe Quincy Turner Frederick Twitchell Chase Ullman Leslie Updike John Upton Lee Valentine Jean Van Duyn Mona Van Wallagen Michael Van Winckel Nance Vangelisti Paul Vazirani Reetika Villanueva Tino Violi Paul Vogelsang Arthur Voigt Ellen Bryant Voisine Connie Volkmann Karen Wagoner David Wakowski Diane Walcott Derek Waldman Anne Waldner Liz Waldrop Keith Waldrop Rosemaire Wallace Mark Wammo Ward Thom Waring Belle Warren Roseanna Warsh Lewis Waters Michael Watson Ellen Dore Watten Barrett Wederoth Joe Weigl Bruce Weingarten Roger Weiss Theodore Wheeler Susan Wier Dara Wilbur Richard Willard Nancy Williams C. K. Williams Miller Williamson Alan Wilner Eleanor Wojahn David Wood Susan Wormser Baron Wright C. D. Wright Charles Wright Franz Wright Jay Wrigley Robert Yau John Yenser Stephen Young Dean Young Gary Young Bear Ray A. Zarin Cynthia Zimmer Paul Zinnes Harriet Zwieg Martha _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From griffinbaker at shaw.ca Thu Sep 26 00:45:38 2002 From: griffinbaker at shaw.ca (Mark Baker) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:45:38 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] query about acting References: Message-ID: <3D9290F1.534C1CD2@shaw.ca> A chapter--"American Performances: Theater, Oratory, Music"--in David Reynolds' _Walt Whitman's America_. Booth is in it for sure, as well as much ado about opera. Mark Baker Alan Sondheim wrote: > Query - has anyone written on the relationship between 19th-century poetry > and acting styles? I'm thinking Sarah Bernhardt, Edwin Booth, Lillian > Russell, Lily Langtry, Le Jeune, etc.? - > > Alan - > > Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt > Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html > Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm > CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim at panix.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Sep 26 01:06:21 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:06:21 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect References: <8d.1ecc10fa.2ac369e6@aol.com> Message-ID: <00d501c2651b$93293970$4b864cca@JROSS2> There's a poet/academic here, in Australia who has long been neglected -- John Scott. I reckon he's the poets' poet -- or at least he has been for me and several other writers I know of. Unfortunately, he tired of living on a shoestring ... I think ... and entered the fiction stakes, which have garnered him much more in the way fame and money. (Whoops! Have just checked on the money statement, and found that he said that he felt he'd always been headed in the prose direction ... ) Anyway, I can't say enough good stuff about him ... as a poet, that is. I don't always ... like his subject matter or the fact that he's generally a curmudgeon, but the man can WRITE!! Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] neglect > In a message dated 9/25/02 1:23:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dbarone at sjc.edu > writes: > > > im says that the best eventually will get read and tells the story of the > > person who discovered an old volume of Poe. But I think fiction and poetry > > is no different than Coke or Pepsi. It all depends on marketing. I > thought > > Alan Golding's From Outlaw to Classic: Canons in American Poetry an > > excellent study of this question. I read the Tom Bissell essay this > > morning, and that, too, I thought quite interesting. Black Sparrow's big > > three authors have moved to HarperCollins and now John Fante can be "sold" > > -- here's some lines (sorry that when I respond to this list my comments > are > > often fiction rather than poetry based) from the advertising copy for The > > John Fante Reader: "a voice of his generation" (that's probably news to > > anyone who studies 1930s literature and would certainly be news to Fante if > > he were still alive - though he'd be glad to hear it), "irrepressible > > genius" (curious, since he was pretty much "repressed" for fifty years -- > > when his best book came out the promotion for it got cut because the > > publisher was being sued ---- by Adolf Hitler [How's that for bad luck?]), > > "the important next step in the reintrodution of this influential literary > > writer" -- another curious comment if, as the ad says earlier, he was > > "almost unheard of in his lifetime," then how could he be influential? But > > I'd agree a "reader" is an important step in promotion (not in art). The > ad > > ends by stating that Fante is now "taking his place in the pantheon of > > twentieth-century American writers." Well, yes, because the place and the > > author and the pantheon (and the audience, too) have been so very nicely > > manufactured. > > Dennis, > I'm not convinced that anything more than a short term, Hollywood-like > buzz can be created by marketing alone. Ultimately you have to have > a product that appeals to people. Coke & Pepsi are brands...the product > is sweetened carbonated water which people seem to like to drink. > No amount of marketing could get people to more than taste > bottled pond scum. Similarly, Fante will remain a literary footnote > unless his books find fans. Not necessarily great numbers of fans, > but they must be fans of an influential sort in order to sustain that > rep the publisher is touting. > Tonight I'm going to hear Jack Gilbert read. He fits nicely under > this 'neglected' rubric...esp. when it comes to major prizes and > critical attention. Of course in his case it's largely been neglect > by his choice. Yet, I've met many poets who are impressed by > and who speak reverentially about his work. For some of us, > he has the goods. > > The story about the man finding the Poe volume was really only > speaking to "the desire" we have to find and "the excitement" we get > when we find (or think we have found) something rare and overlooked > (like a unfairly neglected author). Poe when the book, a little pamphlet > really, was found (1988) was already world-famous (far from neglected). > Incidentally the little book, one of only a dozen or so known to be in > existence was purchased for $15 at the book sale and sold for $198,000 > at Sotheby's. Now that's a nice return on investment. > Jim F > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Sep 26 01:14:18 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:14:18 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect References: <5.1.1.6.0.20020925152913.015e3c68@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <00d601c2651b$94d821f0$4b864cca@JROSS2> Gabe wrote: We live daily here in the US, esp nowadays, with the obvious attempts by those with great cultural capital to manufacture political consensus. The manufacture of aesthetic consensus is no different. Zan writes: It's not just in the US that this is happening. And ain't it just a pity that people with such capital so seldom rely on more than, "I know what I like?" sigh. From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Sep 26 01:24:13 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:24:13 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: neglect References: <200209260017.g8Q0HWVB080972@mx17.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <016a01c2651e$033e1620$4b864cca@JROSS2> David wrote: Is it marketing alone, or even mainly, that sustains in readers a desire, say, for the work of Walt Whitman and not John Greenleaf Whittier? Zan writes: That's an interesting point. Wouldn't mind your conjecture here ... From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Sep 26 02:06:17 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:06:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins References: <3D91F8E9.17397.B820B8@localhost> Message-ID: <00c001c26522$d531cf60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Marcus, The first part of the point is, you don't just run something through a language translator and slap it on a page and say, here's a poem. The whole process is explained much better by Patti Marshock, and I have her essay posted on my website: http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/collage.html The rest of the point...when I'm teaching, young and inexperienced poets, I find it's useful to move them away from too much inner-directedness, and make them focus on something outside themselves. Particularly, on language. In the case of the Connecticut Poetry Festival, working with more experienced poets, I still found it was a useful technigue for getting them to look at language in a new way. SITUATIONS pub date August 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins > > And Tad shared this strategy at a Connecticut Poetry Festival last year, and > > I have since played with words in a similar way. I made a list of Collins's > > titles, ran them through Babelfish's translater, and thus this poem was > > born: > > Yabbut, what's the point? How does that kind of automated word-play > signify as art of any kind? Would you say that an automated lathe > turning chair legs is making art, too, if the operator said that he > was making art instead of chair legs? > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Sep 26 02:11:30 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:11:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EF5@mail.ripon.edu> <004501c2631f$e91504c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <003501c263b9$d8df2f00$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> <002001c26445$8a99a000$6a864cca@JROSS2> <000001c264f1$1e87afe0$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> Message-ID: <00ed01c26523$8eb85120$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Audrey -- thank you, and I'm glad I helped. I'd love to see what your 8th graders do with this exercise...and I really liked your Collins-based poem. Tad SITUATIONS pub date August 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Poemlady" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins > Thanks, Ganesha. Yes, it's a great technique to get kids to break out of > their typical structures, their every-day syntax. Thanks, Tad, for teaching > this to me, and I know that my 8th graders will eventually want to thank you > too! > Audrey > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Poemlady at cox.net Thu Sep 26 03:41:07 2002 From: Poemlady at cox.net (Poemlady) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 03:41:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dodge Festival References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EF5@mail.ripon.edu> <004501c2631f$e91504c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <003501c263b9$d8df2f00$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> <002001c26445$8a99a000$6a864cca@JROSS2> <000101c264f1$24b91340$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> <001901c26504$1cd52340$0e9e598a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <004901c26530$135b95c0$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> I saw her talk also. It was amazingly helpful, but especially so because I am currently in process of writing a critical essay on her poem "Earthmoving Maledictions." After hearing her speak of her thoughts on endings and how they should force a reader back to the beginning, Now I know just why this poem left me feeling like I couldn't let it go! I will be reading much more of her work. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Renee Ashley" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 10:26 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dodge Festival > HI all, > I did get to see Heather McHugh talk on craft -- and it was incredible. > She's amazing and articulate and hysterically funny. Brilliant every time. > Renee Ashley > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Poemlady" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 7:59 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Dodge Festival > > > > Just curious...how many of you attended the Geraldine Dodge Poetry > Festival > > in Waterloo, NJ. this past weekend? It was quite the > happening........four > > Poet Laureates there at the same time, and an impressive list of featured > > poets. Li-Young Li gave an impressive talk on craft, Mark Doty was his > > thoughtful and articulate self, Kunitz was awesome! I looked at him and > > realized that I still have plenty of time (I hope) to enjoy poetry after I > > finish the MFA I just started at the ripe old age of 52 this summer! It's > > not too late :) > > Audrey > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Poemlady at cox.net Thu Sep 26 07:01:16 2002 From: Poemlady at cox.net (Poemlady) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:01:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EF5@mail.ripon.edu> <004501c2631f$e91504c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <003501c263b9$d8df2f00$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> <002001c26445$8a99a000$6a864cca@JROSS2> <000001c264f1$1e87afe0$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> <00ed01c26523$8eb85120$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <002501c2654c$097cf820$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> Thanks, Tad. When I challenge them with this I will send along results. It will be helpful to break them out of the rhyming couplet Shel Silverstein concept of poetry. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "theoldmole" To: Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 2:11 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins > Audrey -- thank you, and I'm glad I helped. I'd love to see what your 8th > graders do with this exercise...and I really liked your Collins-based poem. > > Tad > > > SITUATIONS > pub date August 1 > to order - or for more info > http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Poemlady" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 7:55 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins > > > > Thanks, Ganesha. Yes, it's a great technique to get kids to break out of > > their typical structures, their every-day syntax. Thanks, Tad, for > teaching > > this to me, and I know that my 8th graders will eventually want to thank > you > > too! > > Audrey > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Arielpf123 at aol.com Thu Sep 26 07:41:51 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:41:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Dodge Festival Message-ID: <19b.95a36c7.2ac44c7f@aol.com> In a message dated 9/26/02 3:59:37 AM, Poemlady at cox.net writes: << After hearing her speak of her thoughts on endings and how they should force a reader back to the beginning, >> I'm teaching a class on "endings" Friday....and would like to know more of what Heather said about them if you can remember???? My CT poetry workshop hired her to do a private workshop retreat weekend for us several years ago and she astounded us with her knowledge and huge intelligence... thanks, patf From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Sep 26 07:45:58 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:45:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily & Google In-Reply-To: <200209260420.g8Q4KlBv047244@mx1.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: Not complaining, mind you, but the fact that some people ask the list what other's find--almost instantly, I'm sure via Google--reminds me of my four years living in the mountains of Puerto Rico, where (I learned) no proper PR driver would ever consult a map or even carry one in his (usually his) car. Maps, I was told, were anti-social. The proper way to get driving instructions was to pull one's car off (or almost off) the road, stroll along to the nearest cantina (hardly ever more than five minutes away), throw back a *copa* or two and then, in the most off-handed way possible, indicate what info was needed. Moral: Google is an anti-social institution. Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." --Robert Ashley Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { >There was an article about them on MobyLive.com awhile back. . . Does anyone { >have the exact URL for the archived article? { > { { Well, I didn't, but now I do, courtesy of Google: { { http://www.mobylives.com/PD_vs_VD.html { { Thanks for the tip, Chryss. { { { ======================================== { David Graham { Professor of English, Ripon College { grahamd at ripon.edu { Home Page: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html { Poetry Library: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html { { "We're writing the book on quality: personal, { undergraduate education." { Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu { ======================================= { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu Sep 26 09:30:44 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:30:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect of taste Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020926091032.00aad640@postoffice.brown.edu> There's an essay on William Gaddis in this week's New Yorker by Jonathan Franzen in which he ponders at some length on these issues of literary popularity and neglect. Franzen develops sort of a heuristic device by dividing novels & readers into Contract (realist, fun-to-read) and Status (modernist, postmodernist difficult high art objects). It makes for interesting reading but it seems too pat. The polarity between mimesis and imagination has been around for some time ("the Mirror and the Lamp"). Every new perception of reality is an act of imagination and evocation. The "general reader" is not necessarily a fixed, dependable quantity (pace Bourdieu & the PR wizards) for whom Contracts are automatically drawn up. The author steps toward a borderland in making a new work; the staples of storytelling are put to new uses. I'm going on about this because I see an affinity between Franzen's and Gabriel's perspective on the sociology of literature. It seems rather deterministic to say that there is no such thing as aesthetic response, no such thing as "good" or "bad" - even in a subjective sense (a la Greenberg) - that there's only "usefulness", and to say that taste is manufactured solely by marketers. Like there's some solid mechanism (marketing, "general reader") out there, in which writers, editors and readers are simply cogs. Both of these guys seem overawed by the business of literature. The business of literature is a crust or film over the universe of aesthetic judgements you and I and everybody on the planet - including authors and poets and musicians and editors and publishers - are making constantly. To deny the existence of aesthetic response and artistic discovery - both by the creators and by the purveyors - seems to miss the forest for the pulp. Henry From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Sep 26 11:37:02 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:37:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020925152913.015e3c68@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: on 9/25/02 3:38 PM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote: > Hi Jim, two quick points: (1) the purpose (and the history) of marketing is > and has been that marketing can *create* desire. It is not there merely to > fulfill an already existent desire. Marketeers and economists and business > folk have long known this. What's more, sociologists of social capital such > as Pierre Bourdieu (there are many others but I think of him especially) > have studied the cultural formation of taste and "cultural capital" and > Bourdieu makes a convincing case that -- especially when it comes to > cultural capital and aesthetics and what's worthy and what's not -- such > things are political and social and not platonic matters; (2) I don't > understand how you can call Jack Gilbert -- winner of the Yale Younger > Prize when it was still considered an important prize to win (something > it's really not anymore) -- "neglected." He hasn't been neglected by most > non-male non-white non-anthologized non-coastal non-urban standards. > > We live daily here in the US, esp nowadays, with the obvious attempts by > those with great cultural capital to manufacture political consensus. The > manufacture of aesthetic consensus is no different. > > Gabe > > At 03:35 PM 9/25/2002 -0400, you wrote: >> In a message dated 9/25/02 1:23:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dbarone at sjc.edu >> writes: >> >>> im says that the best eventually will get read and tells the story of the >>> person who discovered an old volume of Poe. But I think fiction and >> poetry >>> is no different than Coke or Pepsi. It all depends on marketing. I >> thought >>> Alan Golding's From Outlaw to Classic: Canons in American Poetry an >>> excellent study of this question. I read the Tom Bissell essay this >>> morning, and that, too, I thought quite interesting. Black Sparrow's big >>> three authors have moved to HarperCollins and now John Fante can be "sold" >>> -- here's some lines (sorry that when I respond to this list my comments >> are >>> often fiction rather than poetry based) from the advertising copy for The >>> John Fante Reader: "a voice of his generation" (that's probably news to >>> anyone who studies 1930s literature and would certainly be news to >> Fante if >>> he were still alive - though he'd be glad to hear it), "irrepressible >>> genius" (curious, since he was pretty much "repressed" for fifty years -- >>> when his best book came out the promotion for it got cut because the >>> publisher was being sued ---- by Adolf Hitler [How's that for bad luck?]), >>> "the important next step in the reintrodution of this influential literary >>> writer" -- another curious comment if, as the ad says earlier, he was >>> "almost unheard of in his lifetime," then how could he be >> influential? But >>> I'd agree a "reader" is an important step in promotion (not in art). The >> ad >>> ends by stating that Fante is now "taking his place in the pantheon of >>> twentieth-century American writers." Well, yes, because the place and the >>> author and the pantheon (and the audience, too) have been so very nicely >>> manufactured. >> >> Dennis, >> I'm not convinced that anything more than a short term, Hollywood-like >> buzz can be created by marketing alone. Ultimately you have to have >> a product that appeals to people. Coke & Pepsi are brands...the product >> is sweetened carbonated water which people seem to like to drink. >> No amount of marketing could get people to more than taste >> bottled pond scum. Similarly, Fante will remain a literary footnote >> unless his books find fans. Not necessarily great numbers of fans, >> but they must be fans of an influential sort in order to sustain that >> rep the publisher is touting. >> Tonight I'm going to hear Jack Gilbert read. He fits nicely under >> this 'neglected' rubric...esp. when it comes to major prizes and >> critical attention. Of course in his case it's largely been neglect >> by his choice. Yet, I've met many poets who are impressed by >> and who speak reverentially about his work. For some of us, >> he has the goods. >> >> The story about the man finding the Poe volume was really only >> speaking to "the desire" we have to find and "the excitement" we get >> when we find (or think we have found) something rare and overlooked >> (like a unfairly neglected author). Poe when the book, a little pamphlet >> really, was found (1988) was already world-famous (far from neglected). >> Incidentally the little book, one of only a dozen or so known to be in >> existence was purchased for $15 at the book sale and sold for $198,000 >> at Sotheby's. Now that's a nice return on investment. >> Jim F >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > There are more things in heaven and earth, Gabriel, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Sep 26 11:50:18 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:50:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect of taste In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020926091032.00aad640@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: on 9/26/02 8:30 AM, Henry Gould at Henry_Gould at brown.edu wrote: > There's an essay on William Gaddis in this week's New Yorker by Jonathan > Franzen in which he ponders at some length on these issues of literary > popularity and neglect. Franzen develops sort of a heuristic device by > dividing novels & readers into Contract (realist, fun-to-read) and Status > (modernist, postmodernist difficult high art objects). > > It makes for interesting reading but it seems too pat. The polarity > between mimesis and imagination has been around for some time ("the Mirror > and the Lamp"). Every new perception of reality is an act of imagination > and evocation. The "general reader" is not necessarily a fixed, dependable > quantity (pace Bourdieu & the PR wizards) for whom Contracts are > automatically drawn up. The author steps toward a borderland in making a > new work; the staples of storytelling are put to new uses. > > I'm going on about this because I see an affinity between Franzen's and > Gabriel's perspective on the sociology of literature. It seems rather > deterministic to say that there is no such thing as aesthetic response, no > such thing as "good" or "bad" - even in a subjective sense (a la Greenberg) > - that there's only "usefulness", and to say that taste is manufactured > solely by marketers. Like there's some solid mechanism (marketing, > "general reader") out there, in which writers, editors and readers are > simply cogs. > > Both of these guys seem overawed by the business of literature. The > business of literature is a crust or film over the universe of aesthetic > judgements you and I and everybody on the planet - including authors and > poets and musicians and editors and publishers - are making > constantly. To deny the existence of aesthetic response and artistic > discovery - both by the creators and by the purveyors - seems to miss the > forest for the pulp. > > Henry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Here, here! From reneea at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 26 12:14:04 2002 From: reneea at bellatlantic.net (Renee Ashley) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:14:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dodge Festival References: <19b.95a36c7.2ac44c7f@aol.com> Message-ID: <003501c26577$bdd10160$4e9d598a@oemcomputer> Hi Pat and All, Heather McHugh spoke about how often, in good poems, the very last word throws you back on the poem, reverses your expectations so that the "good reader" must go back and see how the poet got there. Enforced rereading via fascination and curiosity. She gave examples but they haven't surfaced in my house yet. I'll check the floor of my truck. She also talked about poems that "opened" at the end rather than snapping shut. But I may be conflating her statement with a couple of books on closure that my student is reading. Audrey, do you have a copy of Heather's handout? that poem that ended with the bird? I know there weren't enough for the crowd... Renee ----- Original Message ----- > > I'm teaching a class on "endings" Friday....and would like to know more of > what Heather said about them if you can remember???? From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Sep 26 15:04:59 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:04:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: neglect Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F0F@mail.ripon.edu> > David wrote: > Is it marketing alone, or even mainly, that sustains in readers a desire, > say, for the work of Walt Whitman and not John Greenleaf Whittier? > > Zan writes: > That's an interesting point. Wouldn't mind your conjecture here ... > > Henry Gould's said most of what I would say on this topic, I think. In an essay about nature & poetry, Brendan Galvin quotes the New England proverb: "nature bats last." I think that there are all sorts of things that bring a poet to popularity--a complicated stew of social and other factors. But ultimately, aesthetics bats last. We read Shakespeare year after year, decade and century after decade and century--because, well, there's something *in* the work itself that speaks beyond local circumstance. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Sep 26 15:58:59 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:58:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: neglect In-Reply-To: <200209260017.g8Q0HWVB080972@mx17.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020926001319.015fb6b0@mail.ilstu.edu> At 07:18 PM 9/25/2002 -0500, DAvid wrote: <> Your points are interesting, but I want to key on three things: (1) "the long haul" and (2) "the ultimate decision" and (3) a decision being made "the way it always has been, by readers, editors, teachers, et al. deciding that the work is or isn't worth paying attention to." I guess I find your rhetoric curious: you speak of an ultimate decision, and you use the singular to describe a decision that's made by a mass of people -- a decision, too, being a summative act of judgement and will -- all of which personifies the long and complex process of literary politics down into one neat, it seems to me, almost post-historical gavel whack. This seems an incredibly injudicious simplification of canon formation, to my mind. Especailly when I can sit down at two different times and pick up the same book and feel interested in it one day and tired of it the next. What could be more fickle than a reader? Answer: an editor. Works survive by luck, sheer luck -- and we tend to believe that what's in front of us at the moment is the best that could possibly be there -- because maybe to think otherwise is heartbreaking. Brands -- authors, books, cultural artifacts -- survive by habits. Shakespeare is just such a habit. He's the Coca-Cola of the literary world. When something consumed is made a habit, it becomes itself the measure of what's valued. It's curious to me how we can see these dynamics functioning in the economic and political and medical worlds but somehow believe the literary world is exempt. Nothing, to my mind, is exempt from the power of habit, and the creation of desires -- and indeed the creation of needs. That includes Shakespeare -- who is backed now by a huge industry. Reverence is merely the habit of appreciation. Or appreciation is merely the habit of reverence. Either way, reverence is based on an artificial model of scarcity of talent. Often there is no long haul. Are you implying that talent will out? Catullus survived by only one manuscript. You should read this article at The Boston Review: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR25.2/bissell.html . It's a few years old, was written by Tom Bissell, an editor at WW Norton, someone very much in the publishing biz. The guy's seen literary life and death from the inside. We are fortunate to have Dalkey Archive Press here at Illinois State -- one of the famous "Mellon Nine" presses -- and in the basement of the headquarters there is an IMMENSE library of out-of-print works -- ingenious books -- collected lovingly and RUTHLESSLY over the years by John O'Brien, the genius behind Dalkey. This library is not a testament to the belief that talent will out. Quite the contary. It's a testimony to the fact that there is a surplus of talent -- and that cultural capital demands we see talent as a rarity -- otherwise why should we buy brand x over brand y. Gabe From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Thu Sep 26 21:03:00 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:03:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I really dig this poem. But who's the author at this point? ellen s. >English to German and Back Via Spain > >Is Yabbut, what the point? How >does it make means the class > automatizado >of the game of the word >as well as art of the type? >Would it say that an around > automatizado >legs of the chair, >that turns the art >make, also, to you >if the operario said, >made that it the art >instead of legs of the chair? > >(Answer: it may not be art, but it's entertainment!) > > > >> From: "Marcus Bales" >> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 17:56:57 -0400 >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins >> >> Yabbut, what's the point? How does that kind of automated word-play >> signify as art of any kind? Would you say that an automated lathe >> turning chair legs is making art, too, if the operator said that he >> was making art instead of chair legs? > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- From sondheim at panix.com Thu Sep 26 20:47:20 2002 From: sondheim at panix.com (Alan Sondheim) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Query about acting In-Reply-To: <200209261543.g8QFh5610755@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Thank you greatly for this. I'm not sure I mentioned this, but there is a recording available of Sarah Bernhardt - her voice is unbelievable, almost a ululation. She's doing Phaedra. Listening to it, one can understand both the hysteria about her, and something about hysteria itself - Alan Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim at panix.com From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Sep 26 21:15:44 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 18:15:44 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Query about acting References: Message-ID: <3D93B13F.7044824F@earthlink.net> Alan Sondheim wrote: > > Thank you greatly for this. > > I'm not sure I mentioned this, but there is a recording available of Sarah > Bernhardt - her voice is unbelievable, almost a ululation. She's doing > Phaedra. Listening to it, one can understand both the hysteria about her, > and something about hysteria itself - > Sounds suspiciously like over-acting. - the other Jim "The Living Web": Poets, Writers, & Music http://poetserv.com/livweb/livweb.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 26 21:52:01 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 21:52:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect Message-ID: <9b.2e089bc1.2ac513c1@aol.com> In a message dated 9/25/02 4:39:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > Hi Jim, two quick points: (1) the purpose (and the history) of marketing is > and has been that marketing can *create* desire. It is not there merely to > fulfill an already existent desire. Marketeers and economists and business > folk have long known this. What's more, sociologists of social capital such > as Pierre Bourdieu (there are many others but I think of him especially) > have studied the cultural formation of taste and "cultural capital" and > Bourdieu makes a convincing case that -- especially when it comes to > cultural capital and aesthetics and what's worthy and what's not -- such > things are political and social and not platonic matters; (2) I don't > understand how you can call Jack Gilbert -- winner of the Yale Younger > Prize when it was still considered an important prize to win (something > it's really not anymore) -- "neglected." He hasn't been neglected by most > non-male non-white non-anthologized non-coastal non-urban standards. > > We live daily here in the US, esp nowadays, with the obvious attempts by > those with great cultural capital to manufacture political consensus. The > manufacture of aesthetic consensus is no different. > > Gabe > Gabe, I'm betting I'm about the only MBA-Marketing major on this list. I've read the real texts. And I've walked the walk...& manufacturing desire is not possible. Thousands of products are launched in this country each year, with great fanfare & huge marketing budgets...most fail. If only it were as easy as throwing $ money around. Marketing is only one piece of puzzle: product is another part of the puzzle...as is notice (this is where marketing comes into play) and distribution (where Borders/SPD/local bookstores). Take away any of the pieces and no amount of marketing dollars will make up for the missing component. You may remember that the many of the dot.coms tried to convince the us by marketing $s alone that we needed them. If we didn't (and most we didn't), then now they don't exist. In sales you sell need. But those who have sold for a living know it's so much easier to make the sale, if the buyer "really needs what it is" you have to sell. Gilbert's big prizes were the Yale in '62/'63...and then a Lannan in about 1999. So he's not been overloaded with literary prizes. He's male and white, and has lived in San Francisco and Greece, and Northampton MA for the last 5 years, that's true...but he's never given himself up to a literary life, or the career of being a poet. His stubbornness has made his work peripheral to the poetry of some of his overlauded peers, in my opinion. But I never miss a chance to say that more people should read Monolithos and The Great Fires. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 26 22:12:16 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:12:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Query about acting Message-ID: In a message dated 9/26/02 8:48:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sondheim at panix.com writes: > m not sure I mentioned this, but there is a recording available of Sarah > Bernhardt - her voice is unbelievable, almost a ululation. She's doing > Phaedra. Listening to it, one can understand both the hysteria about her, > and something about hysteria itself - > Alan, Is this on the web somewhere? Finnegan From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Sep 26 22:13:45 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 21:13:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect In-Reply-To: <9b.2e089bc1.2ac513c1@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020926205933.00b744b8@mail.ilstu.edu> > >Gabe, I'm betting I'm about the only MBA-Marketing major on this list. > I've read the real texts. And I've walked the walk...& manufacturing desire >is not possible. Thousands of products are launched in this country each >year, with great fanfare & huge marketing budgets...most fail. If only it >were >as easy as throwing $ money around. Thanks, Finnegan. Am pretty ignorant, as you guessed, about true marketing. I suppose I'm using the term in an over-broad manner, conflating it w/ all sorts of things in maybe a metaphorical and non-monetary sense -- which is why I keep talking about cultural capital. I guess, for instance, I'd see certain poem topics, certain kinds of metaphors, certain rhetorical figures, and tones -- certain features of or kinds of poems -- as aesthetic capital. I'm not talking about literal money but figurative capital in the same manner that Friends of Bill would speak about politcal capital. Not merely Collins changing from Pitt to (was it?) Random House, but Collins choosing to publish in certain periodicals or even writing with certain rhetorical figures or a certain brand of metaphoricity. Even his choice to use narrative so heavily: right down to the very pace and linebreaking of his poems. jeepers, anytime I pop off w/ a word like metaphoricity I know it's time to stop.... gabe From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 26 22:19:34 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:19:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] re: neglect Message-ID: <16.26100467.2ac51a36@aol.com> In a message dated 9/26/02 3:06:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > But > ultimately, aesthetics bats last. We read Shakespeare year after year, > decade and century after decade and century--because, well, there's > something *in* the work itself that speaks beyond local circumstance. Yes, he produced a very good product...something people still seem to need. Also, have there not been several attempts on his life: that is to say, have not some literary historian's tried to undermine him as "the author" by saying he was a mask of Marlowe's, or some such nonsense? Finnegan From Poemlady at cox.net Thu Sep 26 22:33:01 2002 From: Poemlady at cox.net (Poemlady) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:33:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dodge Festival References: <19b.95a36c7.2ac44c7f@aol.com> <003501c26577$bdd10160$4e9d598a@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <000601c265ce$33525fa0$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> Dear Renee...and others interested in McHugh's example of powerful endings that shock the reader....her's Anthony Hecht's poem that Heather used as an example: Birdwatchers of America I suffer now continually from vertigo, and today, the 23rd of January, 1862, I received a singular warning. I felt the wind of the wings of madness pass over me. -Baudelaire, Journals It's all very well to dream of a dove that saves, Picasso's or the Pope's. The one that anually coos in Our Lady's ear Half the world's hopes, And the other one that shall cunningly engineer The retirement of all businessmen to their graves, And when this is brough about Make us the loving brothers of every lout- But in our part of the country a false dusk Lingers for hours, it steams From JforJames at aol.com Thu Sep 26 23:24:40 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:24:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect Message-ID: <78.2d36e724.2ac52978@aol.com> In a message dated 9/26/02 10:15:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > keep talking about cultural capital. I guess, for instance, I'd see > certain poem topics, certain kinds of metaphors, certain rhetorical > figures, and tones -- certain features of or kinds of poems -- as aesthetic > capital. I'm not talking about literal money but figurative capital in the > same manner that Friends of Bill would speak about politcal capital. Not > merely Collins changing from Pitt to (was it?) Random House, but Collins > choosing to publish in certain periodicals or even writing with certain > rhetorical figures or a certain brand of metaphoricity. Even his choice to > use narrative so heavily: right down to the very pace and linebreaking of > his poems. Gabe, I don't think we're diametrically opposed...in fact I think your point about "neglect being relative" was spot-on. Aesthetic capital is a new concept to me...but it makes sense to me as a set of devices/techniques employed by an artist working in the mainstream. Collins is perfect: He's perfectly positioned himself (at this point in time) in the current of the mainstream of contemporary poetry. This is no small feat. (Bad pun coming) But many of us doubt whether his poetry has legs. Finnegan From A420Mindstate at aol.com Wed Sep 25 00:25:36 2002 From: A420Mindstate at aol.com (A420Mindstate at aol.com) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:25:36 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] bartgams@aol.com Message-ID: <10.25904c5b.2ac294c0@aol.com> The streets that we walk can be filled with love, hate, and disorder, but for the most part it is filled with confusion. The confusion of what mood we are actually in. No time for choosing, just feeling through the pain. A pain which is indescribable. The feeling for some is sadness and for some inpatienceness of where we are going. And, then when we get there we don't want to be there. So we leave, or stay, or just zone out like we aren't even there. The places we go and the things we do to get to the promised land. A place we can see in our own mind. Everyone has their own desires and their own wants but, no one wants to work had to get there. Peace of mind and peace of heart is a main goal we all have but for some it is already there, or so it seems. I will leave this for now... Writen By: Stephen Bartolomeo From mandolin at mac.com Thu Sep 26 08:14:49 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:14:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Query about acting In-Reply-To: <200209260444.g8Q4i3605821@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <8DC1E7E5-D149-11D6-B6B4-000393C29586@mac.com> On Thursday, September 26, 2002, at 12:44 AM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > Query - has anyone written on the relationship between 19th-century > poetry > and acting styles? I'm thinking Sarah Bernhardt, Edwin Booth, Lillian > Russell, Lily Langtry, Le Jeune, etc.? - There's a very brief bit in Timothy Steele's Missing Measures about how the Victorian style of performing poetry contributed to the early 20th revolt against meter. From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Fri Sep 27 01:19:23 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:19:23 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily & Google References: Message-ID: <002b01c265e5$72de4280$4e864cca@JROSS2> Mind you, we're not living in Puerto Rico ... but then, isn't asking people on the list what they find the equivalent of going to the nearest cantina? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 7:45 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily & Google > Not complaining, mind you, but the fact that some people ask the > list what other's find--almost instantly, I'm sure via Google--reminds > me of my four years living in the mountains of Puerto Rico, where > (I learned) no proper PR driver would ever consult a map or even > carry one in his (usually his) car. Maps, I was told, were anti-social. > The proper way to get driving instructions was to pull one's car off > (or almost off) the road, stroll along to the nearest cantina (hardly > ever more than five minutes away), throw back a *copa* or two > and then, in the most off-handed way possible, indicate what > info was needed. > > Moral: Google is an anti-social institution. > > Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." > --Robert Ashley > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > { >There was an article about them on MobyLive.com awhile back. . . Does anyone > { >have the exact URL for the archived article? > { > > { > { Well, I didn't, but now I do, courtesy of Google: > { > { http://www.mobylives.com/PD_vs_VD.html > { > { Thanks for the tip, Chryss. > { > { > { ======================================== > { David Graham > { Professor of English, Ripon College > { grahamd at ripon.edu > { Home Page: > { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > { Poetry Library: > { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > { > { "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > { undergraduate education." > { Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > { ======================================= > { > { _______________________________________________ > { New-Poetry mailing list > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From sondheim at panix.com Fri Sep 27 01:26:01 2002 From: sondheim at panix.com (Alan Sondheim) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 01:26:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Query about acting In-Reply-To: <200209270327.g8R3R4619141@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: It doesn't seem like overacting; there were a different set of gestures used at that period - look at the early silent film - the necessity of literally holding the stage without amplification, and in the case of silent film, without sound - There's a cd with Bernhardt and a number of others included, I think Patti as well - it's fascinating material - a number of my videos will use one or another form of declamation - It's as if everything is at stake in these works that survive only by virtue of the technological hinge - we don't have anything earlier - I would have loved to have heard Artemus Ward - who already reads like Lenny Bruce and whose transcriptions used a tremendous number of diacritical devices - they end up looking like Apollinaire - Alan From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Fri Sep 27 01:33:14 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:33:14 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect of taste References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020926091032.00aad640@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <003f01c265e7$62821c20$4e864cca@JROSS2> I agree with your assertions re most analysis setting up an arbitrary (and personal) dichotomies. It seems the most obvious thing for most of us to do in surveying the vast field of text available -- that and categorising elements of that field into manageable streams. Then, there is always the "I know what I like" sampling of said field. There is the railing against the "business of literature, but I must ask you, "What would you have us do, Henry?" A friend of mine said the following: "The neglected poets are those whose work would have enlightened readers if we had had the courage the support them. It is true that the rainbow of success is chaotic but part of the result resides always with each and everyone. So, rather than to explain what happens, why don't "they" do something for the "invisible" ones. Perhaps the only invisible is themselves. What then would make them visible? Not to talk about it but be seen as poets in their own right. And writing is about a message in a bottle anyway. Who said that recognition had to be immediate. Furthermore, quality is not a matter of glory but impact. I know positive feedback is great. But, the "authorities", the "shining lights" of academia, publishing, and critique are mere incidents." I suppose the personal can be all there is, really. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Gould" To: Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 9:30 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect of taste > There's an essay on William Gaddis in this week's New Yorker by Jonathan > Franzen in which he ponders at some length on these issues of literary > popularity and neglect. Franzen develops sort of a heuristic device by > dividing novels & readers into Contract (realist, fun-to-read) and Status > (modernist, postmodernist difficult high art objects). > > It makes for interesting reading but it seems too pat. The polarity > between mimesis and imagination has been around for some time ("the Mirror > and the Lamp"). Every new perception of reality is an act of imagination > and evocation. The "general reader" is not necessarily a fixed, dependable > quantity (pace Bourdieu & the PR wizards) for whom Contracts are > automatically drawn up. The author steps toward a borderland in making a > new work; the staples of storytelling are put to new uses. > > I'm going on about this because I see an affinity between Franzen's and > Gabriel's perspective on the sociology of literature. It seems rather > deterministic to say that there is no such thing as aesthetic response, no > such thing as "good" or "bad" - even in a subjective sense (a la Greenberg) > - that there's only "usefulness", and to say that taste is manufactured > solely by marketers. Like there's some solid mechanism (marketing, > "general reader") out there, in which writers, editors and readers are > simply cogs. > > Both of these guys seem overawed by the business of literature. The > business of literature is a crust or film over the universe of aesthetic > judgements you and I and everybody on the planet - including authors and > poets and musicians and editors and publishers - are making > constantly. To deny the existence of aesthetic response and artistic > discovery - both by the creators and by the purveyors - seems to miss the > forest for the pulp. > > Henry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Fri Sep 27 01:57:51 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:57:51 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect References: <78.2d36e724.2ac52978@aol.com> Message-ID: <00d901c265ea$d309c260$4e864cca@JROSS2> Or perhaps it has too many legs ... eight, infinitely collapsible for skittering about ... Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] neglect > In a message dated 9/26/02 10:15:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > > > keep talking about cultural capital. I guess, for instance, I'd see > > certain poem topics, certain kinds of metaphors, certain rhetorical > > figures, and tones -- certain features of or kinds of poems -- as > aesthetic > > capital. I'm not talking about literal money but figurative capital in the > > same manner that Friends of Bill would speak about politcal capital. Not > > merely Collins changing from Pitt to (was it?) Random House, but Collins > > choosing to publish in certain periodicals or even writing with certain > > rhetorical figures or a certain brand of metaphoricity. Even his choice to > > use narrative so heavily: right down to the very pace and linebreaking of > > his poems. > Gabe, I don't think we're diametrically opposed...in fact I think your > point about "neglect being relative" was spot-on. Aesthetic capital > is a new concept to me...but it makes sense to me as a set of > devices/techniques employed by an artist working in the mainstream. > Collins is perfect: He's perfectly positioned himself (at this point in time) > in the current of the mainstream of contemporary poetry. > This is no small feat. (Bad pun coming) But many of us doubt > whether his poetry has legs. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Fri Sep 27 08:00:34 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:00:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect of taste In-Reply-To: <003f01c265e7$62821c20$4e864cca@JROSS2> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020926091032.00aad640@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020927074540.00aba310@postoffice.brown.edu> Zan, I don't think I was railing against the business of literature, just trying to put it in its place. & it is complicated, as you say! Gabe, David, Finnegan, all have made valid points. I think culture is not an objective phenomenon. It's inter-subjective, in a subtle way we don't grasp. That's why focusing too literally on sociology or marketing to explain "canonization" will never get it right. Something in our communal inter-subjectivity wants it both ways: ie. we want the agon of fame and fame-seeking (Milton: "fame is the spur"). We ALSO want the compassionate literary detective work that discovers value in neglected writers. And there's a third factor: we sense the limits of art as icon and artifact. There is no utopia of literature - if there was it would be a new "1984". Therefore the endless grousing about an unfair lit-biz world will never end, either: because the source of fairness is elsewhere. See Leonora Woodman's remarkable book "Stanza My Stone" on the hermetic-alchemical subtext of Wallace Stevens' opus, for one perspective on this issue. All is vanity, and a striving after wind. Henry From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Sep 27 08:32:32 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:32:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily & Google In-Reply-To: <002b01c265e5$72de4280$4e864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: My point--exactly, Zan. Hal { Mind you, we're not living in Puerto Rico ... but then, isn't asking people { on the list what they find the equivalent of going to the nearest cantina? { { Zan { { ----- Original Message ----- { From: "Halvard Johnson" { To: { Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 7:45 PM { Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily & Google { { { > Not complaining, mind you, but the fact that some people ask the { > list what other's find--almost instantly, I'm sure via Google--reminds { > me of my four years living in the mountains of Puerto Rico, where { > (I learned) no proper PR driver would ever consult a map or even { > carry one in his (usually his) car. Maps, I was told, were anti-social. { > The proper way to get driving instructions was to pull one's car off { > (or almost off) the road, stroll along to the nearest cantina (hardly { > ever more than five minutes away), throw back a *copa* or two { > and then, in the most off-handed way possible, indicate what { > info was needed. { > { > Moral: Google is an anti-social institution. { > { > Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." { > --Robert Ashley { > { > Halvard Johnson { > =============== { > email: halvard at earthlink.net { > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { > { > { > { >There was an article about them on MobyLive.com awhile back. . . { Does anyone { > { >have the exact URL for the archived article? { > { > { > { { > { Well, I didn't, but now I do, courtesy of Google: { > { { > { http://www.mobylives.com/PD_vs_VD.html { > { { > { Thanks for the tip, Chryss. { > { { > { { > { ======================================== { > { David Graham { > { Professor of English, Ripon College { > { grahamd at ripon.edu { > { Home Page: { > { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html { > { Poetry Library: { > { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html { > { { > { "We're writing the book on quality: personal, { > { undergraduate education." { > { Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu { > { ======================================= { > { { > { _______________________________________________ { > { New-Poetry mailing list { > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { > { > _______________________________________________ { > New-Poetry mailing list { > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Sep 27 08:46:38 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 07:46:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect of taste In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020927074540.00aba310@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <003f01c265e7$62821c20$4e864cca@JROSS2> <4.3.2.7.2.20020926091032.00aad640@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020927073937.00b82660@mail.ilstu.edu> >Henry wrote: <world will never end, either: because the source of fairness is >elsewhere. See Leonora Woodman's remarkable book "Stanza My Stone" on the >hermetic-alchemical subtext of Wallace Stevens' opus, for one perspective >on this issue.>> Henry, you remark that "the endless grousing about an unfair lit-biz world will never end.... See Leonora Woodman...for one perspective on this issue." And I ask: You mention Leonora Woodman. She was an obscure adjunct asst professor at Purdue University all her life. Do you know how she died -- and why? She died, Henry, by shooting herself in the head. She was the husband of Hal Woodman, then chair of the Dept of American Studies at Purdue, a historian. Leonora shot herself because she was denied tenure for the umpteenth time. She did not feel the "source of unfairness [was] elsewhere." She felt it was right there in the middle of her world, the world of letters -- its politics, its sociology, and how and why it values who and what it does. Gabe From reneea at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 27 08:49:45 2002 From: reneea at bellatlantic.net (Renee Ashley) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:49:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dodge Festival References: <19b.95a36c7.2ac44c7f@aol.com> <003501c26577$bdd10160$4e9d598a@oemcomputer> <000601c265ce$33525fa0$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> Message-ID: <004e01c26624$5c83ea00$0a9c598a@oemcomputer> Thank you! You're far more organized than I. I'm sorry we (and others) didn't meet in that tent! Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: "Poemlady" To: Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 10:33 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dodge Festival > Dear Renee...and others interested in McHugh's example of powerful endings > that shock the reader....her's Anthony Hecht's poem that Heather used as an > example: > > Birdwatchers of America > > I suffer now continually from vertigo, and today, the 23rd of > January, 1862, I received a singular warning. I felt the > wind of the wings of madness pass over me. -Baudelaire, Journals > > It's all very well to dream of a dove that saves, > Picasso's or the Pope's. > The one that anually coos in Our Lady's ear > Half the world's hopes, > And the other one that shall cunningly engineer > The retirement of all businessmen to their graves, > And when this is brough about > Make us the loving brothers of every lout- > > But in our part of the country a false dusk > Lingers for hours, it steams > From the soaked hay, wades in the cloudy woods, > Engendering other dreams. > Formless and soft beyond the fence it brooks > Or rises as a faint and rotten musk > Out of a broken stalk. > There are some things of which we seldom talk; > > For instance, the woman next door, whom we hear at night, > Claims that when she was small > She found a man stone dead near the cedar trees > After the first snowfall. > The air was clear. He seemed in ultimate peace > Except that he had no eyes. Rigid and bright > Upon the forehead, furred > With a light frost, crouched an outrageous bird. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Fri Sep 27 08:58:22 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:58:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] neglect of taste In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20020927073937.00b82660@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020927074540.00aba310@postoffice.brown.edu> <003f01c265e7$62821c20$4e864cca@JROSS2> <4.3.2.7.2.20020926091032.00aad640@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020927085646.00a8c950@postoffice.brown.edu> Gabriel, I think it makes a difference that I said "the source of fairness [not unfairness] is elsewhere". Your story somewhat proves my point, sadly. Henry At 07:46 AM 9/27/02 -0500, you wrote: >>Henry wrote: <>world will never end, either: because the source of fairness is >>elsewhere. See Leonora Woodman's remarkable book "Stanza My Stone" on >>the hermetic-alchemical subtext of Wallace Stevens' opus, for one >>perspective on this issue.>> > >Henry, you remark that "the endless grousing about an unfair lit-biz world >will never end.... See Leonora Woodman...for one perspective on this issue." > >And I ask: You mention Leonora Woodman. She was an obscure adjunct asst >professor at Purdue University all her life. Do you know how she died -- >and why? She died, Henry, by shooting herself in the head. She was the >husband of Hal Woodman, then chair of the Dept of American Studies at >Purdue, a historian. Leonora shot herself because she was denied tenure >for the umpteenth time. She did not feel the "source of unfairness [was] >elsewhere." She felt it was right there in the middle of her world, the >world of letters -- its politics, its sociology, and how and why it values >who and what it does. > >Gabe > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Sep 27 09:43:53 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:43:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins In-Reply-To: <00c001c26522$d531cf60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <3D942859.18098.63D0CB@localhost> > > > And Tad shared this strategy at a Connecticut Poetry Festival last year, > and > > > I have since played with words in a similar way. I made a list of > Collins's > > > titles, ran them through Babelfish's translater, and thus this poem was > > > born: Marcus: > > Yabbut, what's the point? How does that kind of automated word-play > > signify as art of any kind? Would you say that an automated lathe > > turning chair legs is making art, too, if the operator said that he > > was making art instead of chair legs? theoldmole: > The first part of the point is, you don't just run something through a > language translator and slap it on a page and say, here's a poem.<< Patti Marshock: "So that's the process. Borrow someone's words, or even use your own, translate them, clone the translation once or twice, pick out the words that call to you, and shuffle them into a new poem. When I showed this to Professor Richards, he recognized his own poem in this one, despite the fact that there are really few similarities. When you do this, you have to beware of sticking to closely to the original. The purpose of the translingual collage is to put something on a page that will help with that inital anxiety of finding words. What you do with the words, and what they will become, depends on your own ideas, aesthetic and talent." Perhaps I just don't understand the value in promoting the technique as if it were any different than what happens when one reads anything and gets inspired by it. If you're not advocating just running it through the language translator and slapping it on the page, why bother to document this as a poetic technique? It's not a poetic technique at all -- no more than reading a poem or novel or looking at a painting or a landscape or thinking about a human relationship or reflecting on how a bit of nature works, are in themselves poetic techniques. Reading Marshock's poem and yours side by side I am struck by the inferiority of Marshock's poem -- by its strained, almost desperate, attempts to non-sequitur itself from the poem it was inspired by, and from the poetics of that poem, and even from making sense in English. The problem, it seems to me, with this sort of technique is that it is so very pedagogical and produces, as almost any pedagogical technique produces, such very derivative poems even when they strain to get away from the original. theoldmole: > The rest of the point...when I'm teaching, young and inexperienced poets, I > find it's useful to move them away from too much inner-directedness, and > make them focus on something outside themselves. Particularly, on > language. > In the case of the Connecticut Poetry Festival, working with more > experienced poets, I still found it was a useful technigue for getting them > to look at language in a new way.< Well, far be it from me to discourage you in trying to get contemporary poets to focus more on language and less on their inner- directedness! As long as this sort of thing is acknowledged as a pedagogical tool to reveal in small what poetic technique does in large, and not as a poetic technique in and of itself, I have no objection. But that's not the way, it seems to me, that most of those who boast that they use this technique actually use it. They mostly just run it through the language translator a couple times and slap it down on the page and call it a poem, so far as I can see. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Sep 27 09:43:52 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:43:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins In-Reply-To: References: <3D91F8E9.17397.B820B8@localhost> Message-ID: <3D942858.16239.63CBFE@localhost> Chryss Yost: > (Answer: it may not be art, but it's entertainment!)< So is TV -- and TV news. So is masturbation. Is "but it's entertainment" the highest standards you've got? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Sep 27 10:03:59 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:03:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins References: <3D942859.18098.63D0CB@localhost> Message-ID: <006201c2662e$bab2bd40$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Marcus -- it's not a poetic technique, it's a teaching technique, or a wordplay technique, or getting-started technique. You're arguing against a point that no one's making. SITUATIONS pub date August 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins > > > > And Tad shared this strategy at a Connecticut Poetry Festival last year, > > and > > > > I have since played with words in a similar way. I made a list of > > Collins's > > > > titles, ran them through Babelfish's translater, and thus this poem was > > > > born: > > Marcus: > > > Yabbut, what's the point? How does that kind of automated word-play > > > signify as art of any kind? Would you say that an automated lathe > > > turning chair legs is making art, too, if the operator said that he > > > was making art instead of chair legs? > > theoldmole: > > The first part of the point is, you don't just run something through a > > language translator and slap it on a page and say, here's a poem.<< > > Patti Marshock: > "So that's the process. Borrow someone's words, or even use your own, > translate them, clone the translation once or twice, pick out the > words that call to you, and shuffle them into a new poem. When I > showed this to Professor Richards, he recognized his own poem in this > one, despite the fact that there are really few similarities. When > you do this, you have to beware of sticking to closely to the > original. The purpose of the translingual collage is to put something > on a page that will help with that inital anxiety of finding words. > What you do with the words, and what they will become, depends on > your own ideas, aesthetic and talent." > > Perhaps I just don't understand the value in promoting the technique > as if it were any different than what happens when one reads anything > and gets inspired by it. > > If you're not advocating just running it through the language > translator and slapping it on the page, why bother to document this > as a poetic technique? It's not a poetic technique at all -- no more > than reading a poem or novel or looking at a painting or a landscape > or thinking about a human relationship or reflecting on how a bit of > nature works, are in themselves poetic techniques. > > Reading Marshock's poem and yours side by side I am struck by the > inferiority of Marshock's poem -- by its strained, almost desperate, > attempts to non-sequitur itself from the poem it was inspired by, and > from the poetics of that poem, and even from making sense in English. > The problem, it seems to me, with this sort of technique is that it > is so very pedagogical and produces, as almost any pedagogical > technique produces, such very derivative poems even when they strain > to get away from the original. > > theoldmole: > > The rest of the point...when I'm teaching, young and inexperienced poets, I > > find it's useful to move them away from too much inner-directedness, and > > make them focus on something outside themselves. Particularly, on > > language. > > In the case of the Connecticut Poetry Festival, working with more > > experienced poets, I still found it was a useful technigue for getting them > > to look at language in a new way.< > > Well, far be it from me to discourage you in trying to get > contemporary poets to focus more on language and less on their inner- > directedness! As long as this sort of thing is acknowledged as a > pedagogical tool to reveal in small what poetic technique does in > large, and not as a poetic technique in and of itself, I have no > objection. > > But that's not the way, it seems to me, that most of those who boast > that they use this technique actually use it. They mostly just run > it through the language translator a couple times and slap it down on > the page and call it a poem, so far as I can see. > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Sep 27 10:38:12 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:38:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins In-Reply-To: <006201c2662e$bab2bd40$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <3D943514.28029.958D1A@localhost> > Marcus -- it's not a poetic technique, it's a teaching technique, or a > wordplay technique, or getting-started technique. You're arguing against a > point that no one's making. > > Patti Marshock: > > "So that's the process. Borrow someone's words, or even use your own, > > translate them, clone the translation once or twice, pick out the > > words that call to you, and shuffle them into a new poem....<< Well, it looks like Patti Marshock, whose opinion you recommended, is in fact using the technique to make "a new poem". And I said outright that as a pedagogical technique I see no objection to it. But it seems to me that only you are urging that use -- that others are using the technique to make "a new poem". Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From poemlady at cox.net Fri Sep 27 11:53:28 2002 From: poemlady at cox.net (poemlady at cox.net) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:53:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dodge Festival Message-ID: <20020927155328.HTEG12192.lakemtao02.cox.net@smtp.east.cox.net> I posted a message on Wom-Po with a time and place, and I waited, but no one showed up. We'll do a better job of pre-arranging next time! Audrey From chryss at silcom.com Fri Sep 27 12:00:42 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:00:42 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins In-Reply-To: <3D942858.16239.63CBFE@localhost> Message-ID: > From: "Marcus Bales" > > Chryss Yost: >> (Answer: it may not be art, but it's entertainment!)< > > So is TV -- and TV news. So is masturbation. Is "but it's > entertainment" the highest standards you've got? Are you flashing back to the poet laureate discussion? To answer your question: Of course not, silly! TV, TV news, and masturbation all have their place. There is a place for pure wordplay and a place for fun and entertaining poetry. I just don't think the Library of Congress is that place. I could make some joke about masturbation and holding myself to high standards, but I'll resist. . . C. From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Sep 27 14:58:58 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:58:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins In-Reply-To: References: <3D942858.16239.63CBFE@localhost> Message-ID: <3D947232.24638.18453A8@localhost> > > So is TV -- and TV news. So is masturbation. Is "but it's > > entertainment" the highest standards you've got? > > To answer your question: Of course not, ... > I could make some joke about masturbation and holding myself to high > standards, but I'll resist. . . I go to all that trouble to set it up for you and you won't take the snapper? Jeeeeeez.......... Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From ccooley at overdomain.com Fri Sep 27 15:32:38 2002 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:32:38 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics In-Reply-To: <200209271337.g8RDb4623044@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: I am looking for books on 20th C Poetics. Does anyone have recommendations? Let's say a person chose to ignore the finity of life and to attend the infinity of neglected poets (which I hope will go on, since its cessation would mean the end of posterity) and set out to read ALL poetry published today. And not only to read, but to reflect, to make esthetic judgements, to organize, to categorize (go Aristotle!), to morphologize... Yes, especially that, to create a morphology of modern poetry. It would be useful to separate all poetry into its expression plane and its content plane, after the structuralists (Hjelmslev, and others). The study of the expression plane could begin with rhythm and rhyme--the first in a notation of sound in time (rhythmic notation), which, if it were accurate, could explain and remove the difference between metrical and free verse as the presence or absence of a pulse (ir/regular accent); the second could be a classification of phonemes of a particular language, their phonic proximity, creating a notion of phonic harmony, to explain how rhymes, half-rhymes, consonantal rhymes and no-rhymes are all gradations of phonological difference. The content plane would be more difficult (and not only because modern poetry is overloaded on this side). But it might start with a description of the poetic "voice": is it narrative or non-narrative? If narrative, it might be treated by narratics (heretics!) of Greimas and others. If non-narrative... here's where I would need to sit in a hot-spring with a cool porter and think. --Crisman From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Sep 27 22:24:20 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:24:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins References: <3D943514.28029.958D1A@localhost> Message-ID: <008e01c26696$28af4d60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come from? What are the options? You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it (not an approach I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and follow them to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in between. So yeah, you can use it as a first step toward making a new poem. In my opinion, if you stop there, you're generally not going to see much in the way of results. Does that mean you shouldn't do it? I'm not going to say that. We all write a certain number of half-finished poems...maybe we learn something from them. I am saying it wouldn't satisfy me. Marshock talks about "jump-starting the process" ... going out and looking for words, or combinations of words, and "build[ing] around them." Whether you like Marshock's poem or not, she clearly hasn't just scrambled words around and left them that way. There are a few words from her collaged list -- sleep, foreigner, husband, breast, elbow, superficial -- but not much more than that. None of the phrases. And the poem's taken on its own unity, its own subject. Is there any connection to my poem? I suppose you could say that both of them are about the tenuousness of what we think are our closest connections, but beyond that, not much. The foreigner that loosens the moorings of Marshock's speaker is a foreign body inside her, a tumor. Would you dismiss Brahms for writing variations on a theme by Handel? Charlie Parker for building "Ornithology" on the chords of "How High the Moon"? What about Paul Williams, for taking one riff from Parker's "Now's the Time," itself built on a blues chord progression, and turning that riff into the cruder, simpler "Hucklebuck"? I wouldn't. "The Hucklebuck" is no "Now's the Time," and it's not only derivative but reductive. For all that, it has its own energy and offers its own pleasures. SITUATIONS pub date October 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins > > Marcus -- it's not a poetic technique, it's a teaching technique, or a > > wordplay technique, or getting-started technique. You're arguing against a > > point that no one's making. > > > > Patti Marshock: > > > "So that's the process. Borrow someone's words, or even use your own, > > > translate them, clone the translation once or twice, pick out the > > > words that call to you, and shuffle them into a new poem....<< > > Well, it looks like Patti Marshock, whose opinion you recommended, is > in fact using the technique to make "a new poem". > > And I said outright that as a pedagogical technique I see no > objection to it. But it seems to me that only you are urging that > use -- that others are using the technique to make "a new poem". > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jstolzenberg at snet.net Fri Sep 27 22:38:27 2002 From: jstolzenberg at snet.net (jstolzenberg) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:38:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translator poem making Message-ID: <00c201c26698$22da7700$553ffea9@y9fru> The language translator process (with which I have no experience) sounds like it could expand into the kind of "sampling" technique that has emerged in music over the past several years. Mixing and remixing phrases, tracks, etc. People are debating that technology's use, validity, and so on and will for a long time just as they will the making of (oh my god!) "real" poems and not just exercises through language translators. An extreme example: The second Bollingen Prize panel, at Yale last week, couldn't imagine what poetry would be like in 50 years, allowing a sarcastic Hollander pretty much to be their spokesman on that question. He lamented that people now don't read anymore. So it was impossible to say. Gary Snyder piped in that he had to teach his Graduate students the vowels . Period. Everything going on the internet, in communities, television, clubs, coffeehouses, TV -- didn't exist -- or wasn't "real" poetry --- or wasn't important enough to matter, apparently. Later when the panel was challenged to reconcile the above with their colleague's pessimistic view, to their credit, everyone on the panel spoke positively about these events. Except Mr. Hollander. I am not directing the following at anyone in particular: Sometimes Innovation and change are hard for people to accept. Especially if they have fixed ideas about what things are and how they "should" be. Where's the threat? In the right hands, in time, who knows what poems may come from it? Artful entertainment?.. Let's get into a Franzen-esque Hi-,Lo- Art thing and ask Opra ... uh .. no thanks Peace -- Jonathan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Sep 28 16:36:43 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 15:36:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Other Poets Laureate Message-ID: <200209282035.g8SKZaFp000894@mx5.mx.voyager.net> In different laureate news, New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka has been asked by the governor to resign. Read the story at Poetry Daily, or at this link: http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/ap/sep02/ap-new-jersey-poet092802.asp And here's the poem that caused the ruckus. The charge, I take it, is anti-semitism. http://diversity.uoregon.edu/SomebodyBlewUpAmerica.htm ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Sep 28 17:15:25 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:15:25 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Other Poets Laureate References: <200209282035.g8SKZaFp000894@mx5.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3D961BEC.5A685BCC@earthlink.net> Seems to me Baraka is media savvy David Graham wrote: > In different laureate news, New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka has been > asked by the governor to resign. Read the story at Poetry Daily, or at this > link: > > http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/ap/sep02/ap-new-jersey-poet092802.asp > > And here's the poem that caused the ruckus. The charge, I take it, is > anti-semitism. > > http://diversity.uoregon.edu/SomebodyBlewUpAmerica.htm > ======================================== > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ======================================= > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Cadaly at aol.com Sat Sep 28 17:57:55 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:57:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] marketing Message-ID: <164.14b1ce0e.2ac77fe3@aol.com> So I suppose my love of the failed products at Amazing Stores, Odd Job, and the 99 Cents Store is related to my love of overlooked women's writing? Is Mary Aldis' FLASHLIGHTS the poetry equivalent of scary irradiated vegetables in equally menacing bright yellow butter-flavored sauce which didn't require refrigeration or freezing (as you might be able to tell, I lived on that for a while)? Is Eunice Tietjens prose poetry on China like a nail clipper shaped like a bunny rabbit (made in China)? Who writes a product that could compare to a beach towel imprinted with the face of a clown and pressed into a heart shape small enough to fit into the palm of a hand, but which requires wetting to expand, something which pretty much eliminates usefulness as a towel? Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 28 20:42:29 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins In-Reply-To: <008e01c26696$28af4d60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20020929004229.2324.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Tad, I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas later. However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about. I needed ideas first, and then I began to write more. As Mark Jarman once commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than themselves." However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame. I'm just wondering about you other guys out there. How do you start? Jeff Newberry theoldmole wrote:Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come from? What are the options? You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it (not an approach I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and follow them to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in between. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Sep 28 21:05:44 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:05:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] marketing Message-ID: <134.1516acf5.2ac7abe8@cs.com> In a message dated 9/28/2002 4:59:10 PM Central Daylight Time, Cadaly at aol.com writes: > Who writes a product that could compare to a beach towel imprinted with the > face of a clown and pressed into a heart shape small enough to fit into the > palm of a hand, but which requires wetting to expand, something which > pretty much eliminates usefulness as a towel? > Actually, I've always thought my own stuff was roughly the equivalent of the Velvet Elvis that adorns my office wall. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Sat Sep 28 21:08:15 2002 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:08:15 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] words vs. ideas References: <20020929004229.2324.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <084c01c26754$b26e92e0$e3aeefd8@0021936706> Jeff, Words usually precede ideas for me, at least in the making of a particular poem. That is, I might decide at some point that I want to write about the building of the Hoover Dam, and then file that information away in my brain for later use. When I sit down to write a poem, I am usually moved by either an image, or more often a phrase or a rhythm...I negotiate my way through the language and eventually (I hope) arrive at an idea...so I usually don't have a firm idea of what I'm writing about until I've written a great deal. At some point during this process, it might occur to me that *this* is the hoover dam poem I've been meaning to write, so I revise accordingly. But I've already got *words* to work with. As far as Jarman's comment is concerned, I think it's fine for *some* poems to be about themselves.... Tony *** "The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." Emily Dickinson *** "I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth century." C. Montgomery Burns *** "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be better left alone." Kenneth Koch *** ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker" ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 5:42 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins Tad, I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas later. However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about. I needed ideas first, and then I began to write more. As Mark Jarman once commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than themselves." However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame. I'm just wondering about you other guys out there. How do you start? Jeff Newberry theoldmole wrote: Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come from? What are the options? You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it (not an approach I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and follow them to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in between. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kensanway at post.com Sat Sep 28 22:12:40 2002 From: kensanway at post.com (Ken Chen) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 22:12:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] words vs. ideas References: <20020929004229.2324.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> <084c01c26754$b26e92e0$e3aeefd8@0021936706> Message-ID: <005201c2675d$b1130b70$a8438482@Clone> Hi, This whole conversation about words and ideas seems to be a version of the realist/idealist or content/form debate--a conversation that only makes sense on a theoretical level. I think that in most writing there may be a tension between the words and the ideas, but I think that true writing relinguishes some responsibility if it can consciously claim allegiance to words or ideas. Another way to say this is that I think that writing and ideas--if we are to distinguish between them--are two riddles. The answer of one is the other. Neither question comes before the other. They are the same question. To put this in somewhat less pretentious terms, it seems clear that the formal solutions a writer develops over time are really the most honest transcriptions of thoughts. And yet the thoughts themselves are not recognizable without these formal details. I've actually been thinking about this issue a lot (this issue = breaking language apart with computers). To come at this from a different direction: I've been watching Chinese movies for a while and I've always been interested in the subtitles (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~sharptongue/hksubs.html; some examples: " You slept with other women, being naked"; "Sock him unconscious."; "They had so many argues"). It never really occurred to me that the subtitles would be comedic (I still don't really understand this point of view--how is this different of making fun of someone who doesn't speak English very well?). Instead I thought: these subtitles would be very hard to write. I've noticed in myself that, I think because my brain is sloppy, sometimes it's very difficult for me to speak grammatically (particularly subject-verb tense matches) and while I mean this of course in a half facetious way, I noticed some of this is creeping into my so-called poetry: phrases that I'm not sure if I really understand but which seem to be emotionally accurate. I'm not always sure what to do with these words, because they have a somewhat hermetic quality to them. I'm afraid if I puncture their surface, their entire sense of 'rightness' would deflate. Recently, I've begun reading pages about foreign movies through google's translation machine and then resorted to trying to capture the broken feeling of the language by running poetry that I found emotionally affecting through Altavista's translation machine. I haven't used any of the lines but I have found it interesting as a non-human influence, a kind of computer folk poetry. In fact--lately, I feel like I'm starting to lose my words: I almost feel like it's gotten harder for me to think in coherent sentences, to write... So I'm not really sure how to justify this on a theoretical level, since I find it very difficult to read language poetry or even John Ashbery. I guess my 'solution'--and I don't know if this qualifies as ideas or words--is that I've been using this techniqure more in a 'novel' project which is another way of saying long poem with no line breaks. The setting of this thing is a world where causality, tautology, and thus memory do not operate in a logical way: characters are in two places at the same time; characters fall in love and do not know each other; one character's memory may infect another character's. I'm having a hard time with this but it seems reasonable that under these conditions, without memory or time, language wouldn't quite work the same way. Past tense would fall into present and so on. Anyways, I feel like I should apologize for getting so suddenly self-indulgent. If you're interested in an interesting pictoral parallel to this, check out Mark Napier's Shredder (http://www.potatoland.org/shredder/shredder.html) which takes webpages of your choosing and visually deconstructs them. (The typical result strike me as more visually compelling than most David Carson magazine spreads) So sorry for taking so much of your time. I've never posted to this list before, but I've been pretty interested in the recent discussions, especially the one about Neglect. At the Bollingen thing at Yale last week, the panel was asked to name a neglected poet--I was disapointed to hear familiar names (David Jones, Kenneth Rexroth (whose Classics Revisited I admire)). I would add Djuna Barnes, Lieh-Tzu (not exactly the same kind of thing, but a Taoist writer who seems far less well known than Zhuang-zi and Lao-tze), and (and I've only read a few pages of this book) Charlotte Wilder's Phases of the Moon. Best, Ken |||| | | | | | || | | |||| | | | |||| | | Ken Chen http://www.kenchen.org mail: kensanway at hotmail.com PO Box 207289, New Haven CT 06520-7289 ----- Original Message ----- From: Anthony Robinson To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 9:08 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] words vs. ideas Jeff, Words usually precede ideas for me, at least in the making of a particular poem. That is, I might decide at some point that I want to write about the building of the Hoover Dam, and then file that information away in my brain for later use. When I sit down to write a poem, I am usually moved by either an image, or more often a phrase or a rhythm...I negotiate my way through the language and eventually (I hope) arrive at an idea...so I usually don't have a firm idea of what I'm writing about until I've written a great deal. At some point during this process, it might occur to me that *this* is the hoover dam poem I've been meaning to write, so I revise accordingly. But I've already got *words* to work with. As far as Jarman's comment is concerned, I think it's fine for *some* poems to be about themselves.... Tony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Sun Sep 29 00:55:16 2002 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 12:55:16 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka In-Reply-To: <200209290212.g8T2C4608245@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200209290212.g8T2C4608245@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Baraka's poem is an excellent example of Radical Liberalism gone amok. He should appear with Algore and Teddy Kennedy at the Commonwealth Club to continue to advance their common cause of jackassIsm and treason. This is a very positive development. We need to have it out. Baraka is going to have to prove each and every one of his contentions or be seen as a total fraud. For instance, he believes that the 2000 election was fixed for President Bush. We, his opponents, believe that his man, Al Gore, failed to steal the election with old time and high tech voter fraud. Let's see, hmmm. Where is slavery practiced at this hour? In what country? How big is Farrakhan's house? Dan Rather's? Let's go to Al Gore's faux White House house. Hillarity Clintoon's? Excuse me, houses. Who shook down Coke with King's blood smeared on his hands? Who shook down the justice system with that White girl's blood on his hands? Two can play this game, Baraka. Let's have at it. >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Other Poets Laureate (David Graham) > 2. Re: Other Poets Laureate (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) > 3. Re: marketing (Cadaly at aol.com) > 4. Re: language translater and Collins (Jeff Newberry) > 5. Re: marketing (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > 6. words vs. ideas (Anthony Robinson) > 7. Re: words vs. ideas (Ken Chen) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 15:36:43 -0500 >From: "David Graham" >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Other Poets Laureate >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >In different laureate news, New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka has been >asked by the governor to resign. Read the story at Poetry Daily, or at this >link: > >http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/ap/sep02/ap-new-jersey-poet092802.asp > >And here's the poem that caused the ruckus. The charge, I take it, is >anti-semitism. > >http://diversity.uoregon.edu/SomebodyBlewUpAmerica.htm >======================================== >David Graham >Professor of English, Ripon College >grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, >undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu >======================================= > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:15:25 -0700 >From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Other Poets Laureate >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Seems to me Baraka is media savvy > > >David Graham wrote: > >> In different laureate news, New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka has been >> asked by the governor to resign. Read the story at Poetry Daily, or at this >> link: >> >> http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/ap/sep02/ap-new-jersey-poet092802.asp >> >> And here's the poem that caused the ruckus. The charge, I take it, is >> anti-semitism. >> >> http://diversity.uoregon.edu/SomebodyBlewUpAmerica.htm >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> Professor of English, Ripon College >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> Home Page: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >> Poetry Library: >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >> >> "We're writing the book on quality: personal, >> undergraduate education." >> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu >> ======================================= >> >> _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 3 >From: Cadaly at aol.com >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:57:55 EDT >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] marketing >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >--part1_164.14b1ce0e.2ac77fe3_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >So I suppose my love of the failed products at Amazing Stores, Odd Job, and >the 99 Cents Store is related to my love of overlooked women's writing? > >Is Mary Aldis' FLASHLIGHTS the poetry equivalent of scary irradiated >vegetables in equally menacing bright yellow butter-flavored sauce which >didn't require refrigeration or freezing (as you might be able to tell, I >lived on that for a while)? Is Eunice Tietjens prose poetry on China like a >nail clipper shaped like a bunny rabbit (made in China)? Who writes a >product that could compare to a beach towel imprinted with the face of a >clown and pressed into a heart shape small enough to fit into the palm of a >hand, but which requires wetting to expand, something which pretty much >eliminates usefulness as a towel? > >Rgds, >Catherine Daly >cadaly at pacbell.net > >--part1_164.14b1ce0e.2ac77fe3_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >FACE="Arial" LANG="0">So I suppose my love of the failed products at >Amazing Stores, Odd Job, and the 99 Cents Store is related to my >love of overlooked women's writing?
>
>Is Mary Aldis' FLASHLIGHTS the poetry equivalent of scary irradiated >vegetables in equally menacing bright yellow butter-flavored sauce >which didn't require refrigeration or freezing (as you might be able >to tell, I lived on that for a while)?  Is Eunice Tietjens >prose poetry on China like a nail clipper shaped like a bunny rabbit >(made in China)?  Who writes a product that could compare to a >beach towel imprinted with the face of a clown and pressed into a >heart shape small enough to fit into the palm of a hand, but which >requires wetting to expand, something which pretty much eliminates >usefulness as a towel? 
>
>Rgds,
>Catherine Daly
>cadaly at pacbell.net
> >--part1_164.14b1ce0e.2ac77fe3_boundary-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 4 >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:42:29 -0700 (PDT) >From: Jeff Newberry >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >--0-1232510035-1033260149=:1114 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >Tad, >I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas later. >However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about. I >needed ideas first, and then I began to write more. As Mark Jarman >once commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than >themselves." >However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame. I'm just >wondering about you other guys out there. How do you start? > >Jeff Newberry > theoldmole wrote:Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come >from? What are the >options? You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it (not an >approach I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and follow >them to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in between. > > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! >--0-1232510035-1033260149=:1114 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii > >

Tad, >

I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas >later.  However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to >write about.  I needed ideas first, and then I began to write >more.  As Mark Jarman once commented, "I want my poems to be >about something other than themselves." >

However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame.  I'm >just wondering about you other guys out there.  How do you >start? >

  >

Jeff Newberry >

 theoldmole wrote: >

Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to >come from? What are the
options? You either have an idea and try >to find words to fit it (not an
approach I'd recommend) or you >start with words, images, sounds, and follow
them to see if they >lead anywhere. Or something in >between.


Do you Yahoo!?
>New href="http://rd.yahoo.com/evt=1207/*http://sbc.yahoo.com/">DSL >Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! >--0-1232510035-1033260149=:1114-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 5 >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:05:44 EDT >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] marketing >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >--part1_134.1516acf5.2ac7abe8_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In a message dated 9/28/2002 4:59:10 PM Central Daylight Time, Cadaly at aol.com >writes: >> Who writes a product that could compare to a beach towel imprinted with the >> face of a clown and pressed into a heart shape small enough to fit into the >> palm of a hand, but which requires wetting to expand, something which >> pretty much eliminates usefulness as a towel? >> >Actually, I've always thought my own stuff was roughly the equivalent of the >Velvet Elvis that adorns my office wall. > >--part1_134.1516acf5.2ac7abe8_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 9/28/2002 4:59:10 >PM Central Daylight Time, Cadaly at aol.com writes: COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 >FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
>
Who writes a >product that could compare to a beach towel imprinted with the face >of a clown and pressed into a heart shape small enough to fit into >the palm of a hand, but which requires wetting to expand, something >which pretty much eliminates usefulness as a towel? 
>SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">

>SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Actually, I've >always thought my own stuff was roughly the equivalent of the Velvet >Elvis that adorns my office wall. > >--part1_134.1516acf5.2ac7abe8_boundary-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 6 >From: "Anthony Robinson" >To: >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:08:15 -0700 >Subject: [New-Poetry] words vs. ideas >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_0849_01C2671A.0428F980 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Jeff, > >Words usually precede ideas for me, at least in the making of a = >particular poem. >That is, I might decide at some point that I want to write about the = >building of the Hoover Dam,=20 >and then file that information away in my brain for later use. When I = >sit down to write a poem, >I am usually moved by either an image, or more often a phrase or a = >rhythm...I negotiate >my way through the language and eventually (I hope) arrive at an = >idea...so I usually don't have >a firm idea of what I'm writing about until I've written a great deal. = >At some point during=20 >this process, it might occur to me that *this* is the hoover dam poem = >I've been meaning >to write, so I revise accordingly. But I've already got *words* to work = >with. > >As far as Jarman's comment is concerned, I think it's fine for *some* = >poems to be about themselves.... > >Tony >*** >"The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." >Emily Dickinson > >*** >"I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the = >Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the = >sixteenth century." >C. Montgomery Burns > >*** >"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in = >poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but = >which would be better left alone." >Kenneth Koch > >*** >...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its = >in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. >Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"=20 > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Jeff Newberry=20 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 5:42 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins > > > Tad,=20 > > I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas later. = >However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about. I = >needed ideas first, and then I began to write more. As Mark Jarman once = >commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than = >themselves."=20 > > However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame. I'm just = >wondering about you other guys out there. How do you start?=20 > > =20 > > Jeff Newberry=20 > > theoldmole wrote:=20 > > Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come from? What are = >the > options? You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it = >(not an > approach I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and = >follow > them to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in between. > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------= >----- > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > >------=_NextPart_000_0849_01C2671A.0428F980 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >
Jeff,
>
 
>
Words usually precede ideas for me, at = >least in the=20 >making of a particular poem.
>
That is, I might decide at some point = >that I want=20 >to write about the building of the Hoover Dam,
>
and then file that information away in = >my brain for=20 >later use.  When I sit down to write a poem,
I am usually moved = >by=20 >either an image, or more often a phrase or a rhythm...I = >negotiate
>
my way through the language and = >eventually (I hope)=20 >arrive at an idea...so I usually don't have
>
a firm idea of what I'm writing about = >until I've=20 >written a great deal.  At some point during
>
this process, it might occur to me that = >*this* is=20 >the hoover dam poem I've been meaning
>
to write, so I revise = >accordingly.  But I've=20 >already got *words* to work with.
>
 
>
As far as Jarman's comment is = >concerned, I think=20 >it's fine for *some* poems to be about themselves....
>
 
>
Tony
>
***
"The incredible never surprises us because it is the=20 >incredible."
Emily Dickinson
>
 
>
***
"I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets = >of the=20 >Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the = >sixteenth=20 >century."
C. Montgomery Burns
>
 
>
***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous = >gap in=20 >poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but = >which would=20 >be better left alone."
Kenneth Koch
>
 
>
***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us = >but yet=20 >its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, = >"Riddley=20 >Walker"
>
 
>
 
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = >BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> >
----- Original Message -----
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = >black">From:=20 > href=3D"mailto:jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com">Jeff=20 > Newberry > >
Sent: Saturday, September 28, = >2002 5:42=20 > PM
>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] = >language=20 > translater and Collins
>

>

Tad,=20 >

I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas = >later. =20 > However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about.  = >I=20 > needed ideas first, and then I began to write more.  As Mark = >Jarman once=20 > commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than = >themselves."=20 >

However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame.  I'm = >just=20 > wondering about you other guys out there.  How do you start?=20 >

=20 >

Jeff Newberry=20 >

 theoldmole wrote:=20 > style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px = >solid">Good=20 > Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come from? What are = >the
options?=20 > You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it (not = >an
approach=20 > I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and = >follow
them=20 > to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in = >between.

>


>

> Do you Yahoo!?
New href=3D"http://rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D1207/*http://sbc.yahoo.com/">DSL = >Internet=20 > Access from SBC & Yahoo! > >------=_NextPart_000_0849_01C2671A.0428F980-- > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 7 >From: "Ken Chen" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] words vs. ideas >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 22:12:40 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C2673C.294D36A0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Hi, > >This whole conversation about words and ideas seems to be a version of = >the realist/idealist or content/form debate--a conversation that only = >makes sense on a theoretical level. I think that in most writing there = >may be a tension between the words and the ideas, but I think that true = >writing relinguishes some responsibility if it can consciously claim = >allegiance to words or ideas. Another way to say this is that I think = >that writing and ideas--if we are to distinguish between them--are two = >riddles. The answer of one is the other. Neither question comes before = >the other. They are the same question. To put this in somewhat less = >pretentious terms, it seems clear that the formal solutions a writer = >develops over time are really the most honest transcriptions of = >thoughts. And yet the thoughts themselves are not recognizable without = >these formal details. > >I've actually been thinking about this issue a lot (this issue =3D = >breaking language apart with computers). To come at this from a = >different direction: I've been watching Chinese movies for a while and = >I've always been interested in the subtitles = >(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~sharptongue/hksubs.html; some examples: = >" You slept with other women, being naked"; "Sock him unconscious."; = >"They had so many argues"). It never really occurred to me that the = >subtitles would be comedic (I still don't really understand this point = >of view--how is this different of making fun of someone who doesn't = >speak English very well?). Instead I thought: these subtitles would be = >very hard to write.=20 > >I've noticed in myself that, I think because my brain is sloppy, = >sometimes it's very difficult for me to speak grammatically = >(particularly subject-verb tense matches) and while I mean this of = >course in a half facetious way, I noticed some of this is creeping into = >my so-called poetry: phrases that I'm not sure if I really understand = >but which seem to be emotionally accurate. I'm not always sure what to = >do with these words, because they have a somewhat hermetic quality to = >them. I'm afraid if I puncture their surface, their entire sense of = >'rightness' would deflate. Recently, I've begun reading pages about = >foreign movies through google's translation machine and then resorted to = >trying to capture the broken feeling of the language by running poetry = >that I found emotionally affecting through Altavista's translation = >machine. I haven't used any of the lines but I have found it interesting = >as a non-human influence, a kind of computer folk poetry.=20 > >In fact--lately, I feel like I'm starting to lose my words: I almost = >feel like it's gotten harder for me to think in coherent sentences, to = >write... So I'm not really sure how to justify this on a theoretical = >level, since I find it very difficult to read language poetry or even = >John Ashbery. I guess my 'solution'--and I don't know if this qualifies = >as ideas or words--is that I've been using this techniqure more in a = >'novel' project which is another way of saying long poem with no line = >breaks. The setting of this thing is a world where causality, tautology, = >and thus memory do not operate in a logical way: characters are in two = >places at the same time; characters fall in love and do not know each = >other; one character's memory may infect another character's. I'm having = >a hard time with this but it seems reasonable that under these = >conditions, without memory or time, language wouldn't quite work the = >same way. Past tense would fall into present and so on. Anyways, I feel = >like I should apologize for getting so suddenly self-indulgent. If = >you're interested in an interesting pictoral parallel to this, check out = >Mark Napier's Shredder = >(http://www.potatoland.org/shredder/shredder.html) which takes webpages = >of your choosing and visually deconstructs them. (The typical result = >strike me as more visually compelling than most David Carson magazine = >spreads) > >So sorry for taking so much of your time. I've never posted to this list = >before, but I've been pretty interested in the recent discussions, = >especially the one about Neglect. At the Bollingen thing at Yale last = >week, the panel was asked to name a neglected poet--I was disapointed to = >hear familiar names (David Jones, Kenneth Rexroth (whose Classics = >Revisited I admire)). I would add Djuna Barnes, Lieh-Tzu (not exactly = >the same kind of thing, but a Taoist writer who seems far less well = >known than Zhuang-zi and Lao-tze), and (and I've only read a few pages = >of this book) Charlotte Wilder's Phases of the Moon. > >Best, >Ken > > > >|||| | | | | | || | | |||| | | | = > |||| | | > >Ken Chen >http://www.kenchen.org = > =20 >mail: kensanway at hotmail.com = > >PO Box 207289, New Haven CT 06520-7289=20 > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Anthony Robinson=20 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 9:08 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] words vs. ideas > > > Jeff, > > Words usually precede ideas for me, at least in the making of a = >particular poem. > That is, I might decide at some point that I want to write about the = >building of the Hoover Dam,=20 > and then file that information away in my brain for later use. When I = >sit down to write a poem, > I am usually moved by either an image, or more often a phrase or a = >rhythm...I negotiate > my way through the language and eventually (I hope) arrive at an = >idea...so I usually don't have > a firm idea of what I'm writing about until I've written a great deal. = > At some point during=20 > this process, it might occur to me that *this* is the hoover dam poem = >I've been meaning > to write, so I revise accordingly. But I've already got *words* to = >work with. > > As far as Jarman's comment is concerned, I think it's fine for *some* = >poems to be about themselves.... > > Tony > >------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C2673C.294D36A0 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >
Hi,
>
 
>
This whole conversation about words and = >ideas seems=20 >to be a version of the realist/idealist or content/form debate--a = >conversation=20 >that only makes sense on a theoretical level. I think that in most = >writing there=20 >may be a tension between the words and the ideas, but I think that=20 >true writing relinguishes some responsibility if it can consciously = >claim=20 >allegiance to words or ideas. Another way to say this is that I think = >that=20 >writing and ideas--if we are to distinguish between them--are two = >riddles. The=20 >answer of one is the other. Neither question comes before the = >other. They=20 >are the same question. To put this in somewhat less pretentious = >terms, it=20 >seems clear that the formal solutions a writer develops over = >time are=20 >really the most honest transcriptions of thoughts. And yet the thoughts=20 >themselves are not recognizable without these formal = >details.
>
 
>
I've actually been thinking about this = >issue a lot=20 >(this issue =3D breaking language apart with computers). To come at this = >from a=20 >different direction: I've been watching Chinese movies for a=20 >while and I've always been interested in the subtitles (href=3D"http://members.ozemail.com.au/~sharptongue/hksubs.html">http://me= >mbers.ozemail.com.au/~sharptongue/hksubs.html;=20 >some examples: " You slept with other women, being naked"; "Sock him=20 >unconscious."; "They had so many argues")size=3D2>. It=20 >never really occurred to me that the subtitles would be comedic (I still = >don't=20 >really understand this point of view--how is this different of making = >fun of=20 >someone who doesn't speak English very well?). Instead I thought: these=20 >subtitles would be very hard to write.
>
 
>
I've noticed in myself that, I = >think because=20 >my brain is sloppy, sometimes = >it's very=20 >difficult for me to speak grammatically (particularly subject-verb = >tense=20 >matches) and while I mean this of course in a half facetious way, = >I noticed=20 >some of this is creeping into my so-called poetry: phrases that I'm = >not=20 >sure if I really understand but which seem to be emotionally accurate. = >I'm not=20 >always sure what to do with these words, because they have a somewhat = >hermetic=20 >quality to them. I'm afraid if I puncture their surface, their = >entire sense=20 >of 'rightness' would deflate. Recently, I've begun reading pages = >about=20 >foreign movies through google's translation machine and then resorted to = >trying=20 >to capture the broken feeling of the language by running poetry = >that I=20 >found emotionally affecting through Altavista's translation machine. I = >haven't=20 >used any of the lines but I have found it interesting as a non-human = >influence,=20 >a kind of computer folk poetry.
>
 
>
In fact--lately, I feel like I'm = >starting to lose=20 >my words: I almost feel like it's gotten harder for me to think in = >coherent=20 >sentences, to write... Soface=3DArial=20 >size=3D2> I'm not really sure how to justify this on a = >theoretical=20 >level, since I find it very difficult to read language poetry or = >even John=20 >Ashbery. I guess my 'solution'--and I don't know if this qualifies as = >ideas or=20 >words--is that I've been using this techniqure more in a 'novel' project = >which=20 >is another way of saying long poem with no line breaks. The setting of = >this=20 >thing is a world where causality, tautology, and thus memory do not = >operate in a=20 >logical way: characters are in two places at the same time; characters = >fall in=20 >love and do not know each other; one character's memory may infect = >another=20 >character's. I'm having a hard time with this but it seems reasonable = >that under=20 >these conditions, without memory or time, language wouldn't quite work = >the same=20 >way. Past tense would fall into present and so on. Anyways, I feel like = >I should=20 >apologize for getting so suddenly self-indulgent. If you're interested = >in an=20 >interesting pictoral parallel to this, check out Mark Napier's Shredder=20 >(href=3D"http://www.potatoland.org/shredder/shredder.html">http://www.pota= >toland.org/shredder/shredder.html)=20 >which takes webpages of your choosing and visually deconstructs them. = >(The=20 >typical result strike me as more visually compelling than most = >David Carson=20 >magazine spreads)
>
 
>
So sorry for taking so much of your = >time. I've=20 >never posted to this list before, but I've been pretty interested in the = >recent=20 >discussions, especially the one about Neglect. At the Bollingen thing at = >Yale=20 >last week, the panel was asked to name a neglected poet--I was = >disapointed to=20 >hear familiar names (David Jones, Kenneth Rexroth (whose Classics = >Revisited I=20 >admire)). I would add Djuna Barnes, Lieh-Tzu (not exactly the same kind = >of=20 >thing, but a Taoist writer who seems far less well known than Zhuang-zi = >and=20 >Lao-tze), and (and I've only read a few pages of this book) Charlotte = >Wilder's=20 >Phases of the Moon.
>
 
>
Best,
>
Ken
>
 
>
 
>
>
 
>
||||  |    | |  =20 >|       |   || = >|   =20 >|         ||||=20 >|       |   =20 >|         |||| |   = >|
>
 
>
Ken Chen
href=3D"http://www.kenchen.org">http://www.kenchen.org  &nb= >sp;           &nbs= >p;            = >;            = >            &= >nbsp;           &n= >bsp;           &nb= >sp;           &nbs= >p;   =20 >
mail: href=3D"mailto:kensanway at hotmail.com">kensanway at hotmail.com &nbs= >p;            = >;            = >            &= >nbsp;      =20 >
PO Box 207289, New Haven CT  06520-7289


>
 
>
 
>
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = >BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> >
----- Original Message -----
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = >black">From:=20 > href=3D"mailto:antrobin at clipper.net">Anthony=20 > Robinson > >
Sent: Saturday, September 28, = >2002 9:08=20 > PM
>
Subject: [New-Poetry] words vs. = > > ideas
>

>
Jeff,
>
 
>
Words usually precede ideas for me, = >at least in=20 > the making of a particular poem.
>
That is, I might decide at some point = >that I want=20 > to write about the building of the Hoover Dam,
>
and then file that information away = >in my brain=20 > for later use.  When I sit down to write a poem,
I am usually = >moved by=20 > either an image, or more often a phrase or a rhythm...I = >negotiate
>
my way through the language and = >eventually (I=20 > hope) arrive at an idea...so I usually don't have
>
a firm idea of what I'm writing about = >until I've=20 > written a great deal.  At some point during
>
this process, it might occur to me = >that *this* is=20 > the hoover dam poem I've been meaning
>
to write, so I revise = >accordingly.  But I've=20 > already got *words* to work with.
>
 
>
As far as Jarman's comment is = >concerned, I think=20 > it's fine for *some* poems to be about themselves....
>
 
>
size=3D2>Tony
> >------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C2673C.294D36A0-- > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Sep 29 06:33:51 2002 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 11:33:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka References: <200209290212.g8T2C4608245@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <029801c267a3$bcd808c0$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> Hi, Richard. Thanks for sending me this -- I'm on new-poetry but (as with Buffalo) I've been doing a mark-all-as-read without bothering with the posts. But if you're posting there, I might start looking. Nothing from Candice -- she had a long set of posts to poetryetc, so she's around. But not, apparently, prepared to talk to me. Cheers, Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" To: Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 5:55 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka > Baraka's poem is an excellent example of Radical Liberalism gone > amok. He should appear with Algore and Teddy Kennedy at the > Commonwealth Club to continue to advance their common cause of > jackassIsm and treason. > > This is a very positive development. > > We need to have it out. Baraka is going to have to prove each and > every one of his contentions or be seen as a total fraud. > > For instance, he believes that the 2000 election was fixed for President Bush. > We, his opponents, believe that his man, Al Gore, failed to steal the > election with old time and high tech voter fraud. > > Let's see, hmmm. Where is slavery practiced at this hour? In what country? > > How big is Farrakhan's house? > > Dan Rather's? > > Let's go to Al Gore's faux White House house. > > Hillarity Clintoon's? Excuse me, houses. > > Who shook down Coke with King's blood smeared on his hands? > > Who shook down the justice system with that White girl's blood on his hands? > > Two can play this game, Baraka. > > Let's have at it. > > > > > >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Other Poets Laureate (David Graham) > > 2. Re: Other Poets Laureate (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) > > 3. Re: marketing (Cadaly at aol.com) > > 4. Re: language translater and Collins (Jeff Newberry) > > 5. Re: marketing (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > 6. words vs. ideas (Anthony Robinson) > > 7. Re: words vs. ideas (Ken Chen) > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 1 > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 15:36:43 -0500 > >From: "David Graham" > >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Other Poets Laureate > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >In different laureate news, New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka has been > >asked by the governor to resign. Read the story at Poetry Daily, or at this > >link: > > > >http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/ap/sep02/ap-new-jersey-poet092802.asp > > > >And here's the poem that caused the ruckus. The charge, I take it, is > >anti-semitism. > > > >http://diversity.uoregon.edu/SomebodyBlewUpAmerica.htm > >======================================== > >David Graham > >Professor of English, Ripon College > >grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, > >undergraduate education." > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > >======================================= > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 2 > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:15:25 -0700 > >From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Other Poets Laureate > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >Seems to me Baraka is media savvy > > > > > >David Graham wrote: > > > >> In different laureate news, New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka has been > >> asked by the governor to resign. Read the story at Poetry Daily, or at this > >> link: > >> > >> http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/ap/sep02/ap-new-jersey-poet092802.asp > >> > >> And here's the poem that caused the ruckus. The charge, I take it, is > >> anti-semitism. > >> > >> http://diversity.uoregon.edu/SomebodyBlewUpAmerica.htm > >> ======================================== > >> David Graham > >> Professor of English, Ripon College > >> grahamd at ripon.edu > >> Home Page: > >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > >> Poetry Library: > >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > >> > >> "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > >> undergraduate education." > >> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > >> ======================================= > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 3 > >From: Cadaly at aol.com > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:57:55 EDT > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] marketing > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--part1_164.14b1ce0e.2ac77fe3_boundary > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >So I suppose my love of the failed products at Amazing Stores, Odd Job, and > >the 99 Cents Store is related to my love of overlooked women's writing? > > > >Is Mary Aldis' FLASHLIGHTS the poetry equivalent of scary irradiated > >vegetables in equally menacing bright yellow butter-flavored sauce which > >didn't require refrigeration or freezing (as you might be able to tell, I > >lived on that for a while)? Is Eunice Tietjens prose poetry on China like a > >nail clipper shaped like a bunny rabbit (made in China)? Who writes a > >product that could compare to a beach towel imprinted with the face of a > >clown and pressed into a heart shape small enough to fit into the palm of a > >hand, but which requires wetting to expand, something which pretty much > >eliminates usefulness as a towel? > > > >Rgds, > >Catherine Daly > >cadaly at pacbell.net > > > >--part1_164.14b1ce0e.2ac77fe3_boundary > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > >FACE="Arial" LANG="0">So I suppose my love of the failed products at > >Amazing Stores, Odd Job, and the 99 Cents Store is related to my > >love of overlooked women's writing?
> >
> >Is Mary Aldis' FLASHLIGHTS the poetry equivalent of scary irradiated > >vegetables in equally menacing bright yellow butter-flavored sauce > >which didn't require refrigeration or freezing (as you might be able > >to tell, I lived on that for a while)?  Is Eunice Tietjens > >prose poetry on China like a nail clipper shaped like a bunny rabbit > >(made in China)?  Who writes a product that could compare to a > >beach towel imprinted with the face of a clown and pressed into a > >heart shape small enough to fit into the palm of a hand, but which > >requires wetting to expand, something which pretty much eliminates > >usefulness as a towel? 
> >
> >Rgds,
> >Catherine Daly
> >cadaly at pacbell.net
> > > >--part1_164.14b1ce0e.2ac77fe3_boundary-- > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 4 > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:42:29 -0700 (PDT) > >From: Jeff Newberry > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >--0-1232510035-1033260149=:1114 > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > >Tad, > >I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas later. > >However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about. I > >needed ideas first, and then I began to write more. As Mark Jarman > >once commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than > >themselves." > >However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame. I'm just > >wondering about you other guys out there. How do you start? > > > >Jeff Newberry > > theoldmole wrote:Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come > >from? What are the > >options? You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it (not an > >approach I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and follow > >them to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in between. > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > >Do you Yahoo!? > >New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > >--0-1232510035-1033260149=:1114 > >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii > > > >

Tad, > >

I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas > >later.  However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to > >write about.  I needed ideas first, and then I began to write > >more.  As Mark Jarman once commented, "I want my poems to be > >about something other than themselves." > >

However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame.  I'm > >just wondering about you other guys out there.  How do you > >start? > >

  > >

Jeff Newberry > >

 theoldmole wrote: > >

Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to > >come from? What are the
options? You either have an idea and try > >to find words to fit it (not an
approach I'd recommend) or you > >start with words, images, sounds, and follow
them to see if they > >lead anywhere. Or something in > >between.


Do you Yahoo!?
> >New >href="http://rd.yahoo.com/evt=1207/*http://sbc.yahoo.com/">DSL > >Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > >--0-1232510035-1033260149=:1114-- > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 5 > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:05:44 EDT > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] marketing > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--part1_134.1516acf5.2ac7abe8_boundary > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >In a message dated 9/28/2002 4:59:10 PM Central Daylight Time, Cadaly at aol.com > >writes: > >> Who writes a product that could compare to a beach towel imprinted with the > >> face of a clown and pressed into a heart shape small enough to fit into the > >> palm of a hand, but which requires wetting to expand, something which > >> pretty much eliminates usefulness as a towel? > >> > >Actually, I've always thought my own stuff was roughly the equivalent of the > >Velvet Elvis that adorns my office wall. > > > >--part1_134.1516acf5.2ac7abe8_boundary > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > >FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 9/28/2002 4:59:10 > >PM Central Daylight Time, Cadaly at aol.com writes: >COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 > >FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
> >
Who writes a > >product that could compare to a beach towel imprinted with the face > >of a clown and pressed into a heart shape small enough to fit into > >the palm of a hand, but which requires wetting to expand, something > >which pretty much eliminates usefulness as a towel? 
> > >SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">

> > >SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Actually, I've > >always thought my own stuff was roughly the equivalent of the Velvet > >Elvis that adorns my office wall. > > > >--part1_134.1516acf5.2ac7abe8_boundary-- > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 6 > >From: "Anthony Robinson" > >To: > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:08:15 -0700 > >Subject: [New-Poetry] words vs. ideas > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > > >------=_NextPart_000_0849_01C2671A.0428F980 > >Content-Type: text/plain; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >Jeff, > > > >Words usually precede ideas for me, at least in the making of a = > >particular poem. > >That is, I might decide at some point that I want to write about the = > >building of the Hoover Dam,=20 > >and then file that information away in my brain for later use. When I = > >sit down to write a poem, > >I am usually moved by either an image, or more often a phrase or a = > >rhythm...I negotiate > >my way through the language and eventually (I hope) arrive at an = > >idea...so I usually don't have > >a firm idea of what I'm writing about until I've written a great deal. = > >At some point during=20 > >this process, it might occur to me that *this* is the hoover dam poem = > >I've been meaning > >to write, so I revise accordingly. But I've already got *words* to work = > >with. > > > >As far as Jarman's comment is concerned, I think it's fine for *some* = > >poems to be about themselves.... > > > >Tony > >*** > >"The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." > >Emily Dickinson > > > >*** > >"I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the = > >Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the = > >sixteenth century." > >C. Montgomery Burns > > > >*** > >"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in = > >poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but = > >which would be better left alone." > >Kenneth Koch > > > >*** > >...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its = > >in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. > >Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"=20 > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: Jeff Newberry=20 > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 5:42 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins > > > > > > Tad,=20 > > > > I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas later. = > >However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about. I = > >needed ideas first, and then I began to write more. As Mark Jarman once = > >commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than = > >themselves."=20 > > > > However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame. I'm just = > >wondering about you other guys out there. How do you start?=20 > > > > =20 > > > > Jeff Newberry=20 > > > > theoldmole wrote:=20 > > > > Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come from? What are = > >the > > options? You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it = > >(not an > > approach I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and = > >follow > > them to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in between. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------= > >----- > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > > >------=_NextPart_000_0849_01C2671A.0428F980 > >Content-Type: text/html; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > > >charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > > > > > > >
Jeff,
> >
 
> >
Words usually precede ideas for me, at = > >least in the=20 > >making of a particular poem.
> >
That is, I might decide at some point = > >that I want=20 > >to write about the building of the Hoover Dam,
> >
and then file that information away in = > >my brain for=20 > >later use.  When I sit down to write a poem,
I am usually moved = > >by=20 > >either an image, or more often a phrase or a rhythm...I = > >negotiate
> >
my way through the language and = > >eventually (I hope)=20 > >arrive at an idea...so I usually don't have
> >
a firm idea of what I'm writing about = > >until I've=20 > >written a great deal.  At some point during
> >
this process, it might occur to me that = > >*this* is=20 > >the hoover dam poem I've been meaning
> >
to write, so I revise = > >accordingly.  But I've=20 > >already got *words* to work with.
> >
 
> >
As far as Jarman's comment is = > >concerned, I think=20 > >it's fine for *some* poems to be about themselves....
> >
 
> >
Tony
> >
***
"The incredible never surprises us because it is the=20 > >incredible."
Emily Dickinson
> >
 
> >
***
"I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets = > >of the=20 > >Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the = > >sixteenth=20 > >century."
C. Montgomery Burns
> >
 
> >
***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous = > >gap in=20 > >poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but = > >which would=20 > >be better left alone."
Kenneth Koch
> >
 
> >
***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us = > >but yet=20 > >its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, = > >"Riddley=20 > >Walker"
> >
 
> >
 
> > >style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = > >BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> > >
----- Original Message -----
> > > style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = > >black">From:=20 > > >href=3D"mailto:jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com">Jeff=20 > > Newberry > > > >
Sent: Saturday, September 28, = > >2002 5:42=20 > > PM
> >
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] = > >language=20 > > translater and Collins
> >

> >

Tad,=20 > >

I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas = > >later. =20 > > However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about.  = > >I=20 > > needed ideas first, and then I began to write more.  As Mark = > >Jarman once=20 > > commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than = > >themselves."=20 > >

However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame.  I'm = > >just=20 > > wondering about you other guys out there.  How do you start?=20 > >

=20 > >

Jeff Newberry=20 > >

 theoldmole wrote:=20 > > > style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px = > >solid">Good=20 > > Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come from? What are = > >the
options?=20 > > You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it (not = > >an
approach=20 > > I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and = > >follow
them=20 > > to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in = > >between.

> >


> >

> > Do you Yahoo!?
New > href=3D"http://rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D1207/*http://sbc.yahoo.com/">DSL = > >Internet=20 > > Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > > >------=_NextPart_000_0849_01C2671A.0428F980-- > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 7 > >From: "Ken Chen" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] words vs. ideas > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 22:12:40 -0400 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > > >------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C2673C.294D36A0 > >Content-Type: text/plain; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >Hi, > > > >This whole conversation about words and ideas seems to be a version of = > >the realist/idealist or content/form debate--a conversation that only = > >makes sense on a theoretical level. I think that in most writing there = > >may be a tension between the words and the ideas, but I think that true = > >writing relinguishes some responsibility if it can consciously claim = > >allegiance to words or ideas. Another way to say this is that I think = > >that writing and ideas--if we are to distinguish between them--are two = > >riddles. The answer of one is the other. Neither question comes before = > >the other. They are the same question. To put this in somewhat less = > >pretentious terms, it seems clear that the formal solutions a writer = > >develops over time are really the most honest transcriptions of = > >thoughts. And yet the thoughts themselves are not recognizable without = > >these formal details. > > > >I've actually been thinking about this issue a lot (this issue =3D = > >breaking language apart with computers). To come at this from a = > >different direction: I've been watching Chinese movies for a while and = > >I've always been interested in the subtitles = > >(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~sharptongue/hksubs.html; some examples: = > >" You slept with other women, being naked"; "Sock him unconscious."; = > >"They had so many argues"). It never really occurred to me that the = > >subtitles would be comedic (I still don't really understand this point = > >of view--how is this different of making fun of someone who doesn't = > >speak English very well?). Instead I thought: these subtitles would be = > >very hard to write.=20 > > > >I've noticed in myself that, I think because my brain is sloppy, = > >sometimes it's very difficult for me to speak grammatically = > >(particularly subject-verb tense matches) and while I mean this of = > >course in a half facetious way, I noticed some of this is creeping into = > >my so-called poetry: phrases that I'm not sure if I really understand = > >but which seem to be emotionally accurate. I'm not always sure what to = > >do with these words, because they have a somewhat hermetic quality to = > >them. I'm afraid if I puncture their surface, their entire sense of = > >'rightness' would deflate. Recently, I've begun reading pages about = > >foreign movies through google's translation machine and then resorted to = > >trying to capture the broken feeling of the language by running poetry = > >that I found emotionally affecting through Altavista's translation = > >machine. I haven't used any of the lines but I have found it interesting = > >as a non-human influence, a kind of computer folk poetry.=20 > > > >In fact--lately, I feel like I'm starting to lose my words: I almost = > >feel like it's gotten harder for me to think in coherent sentences, to = > >write... So I'm not really sure how to justify this on a theoretical = > >level, since I find it very difficult to read language poetry or even = > >John Ashbery. I guess my 'solution'--and I don't know if this qualifies = > >as ideas or words--is that I've been using this techniqure more in a = > >'novel' project which is another way of saying long poem with no line = > >breaks. The setting of this thing is a world where causality, tautology, = > >and thus memory do not operate in a logical way: characters are in two = > >places at the same time; characters fall in love and do not know each = > >other; one character's memory may infect another character's. I'm having = > >a hard time with this but it seems reasonable that under these = > >conditions, without memory or time, language wouldn't quite work the = > >same way. Past tense would fall into present and so on. Anyways, I feel = > >like I should apologize for getting so suddenly self-indulgent. If = > >you're interested in an interesting pictoral parallel to this, check out = > >Mark Napier's Shredder = > >(http://www.potatoland.org/shredder/shredder.html) which takes webpages = > >of your choosing and visually deconstructs them. (The typical result = > >strike me as more visually compelling than most David Carson magazine = > >spreads) > > > >So sorry for taking so much of your time. I've never posted to this list = > >before, but I've been pretty interested in the recent discussions, = > >especially the one about Neglect. At the Bollingen thing at Yale last = > >week, the panel was asked to name a neglected poet--I was disapointed to = > >hear familiar names (David Jones, Kenneth Rexroth (whose Classics = > >Revisited I admire)). I would add Djuna Barnes, Lieh-Tzu (not exactly = > >the same kind of thing, but a Taoist writer who seems far less well = > >known than Zhuang-zi and Lao-tze), and (and I've only read a few pages = > >of this book) Charlotte Wilder's Phases of the Moon. > > > >Best, > >Ken > > > > > > > >|||| | | | | | || | | |||| | | | = > > |||| | | > > > >Ken Chen > >http://www.kenchen.org = > > =20 > >mail: kensanway at hotmail.com = > > > >PO Box 207289, New Haven CT 06520-7289=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: Anthony Robinson=20 > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 9:08 PM > > Subject: [New-Poetry] words vs. ideas > > > > > > Jeff, > > > > Words usually precede ideas for me, at least in the making of a = > >particular poem. > > That is, I might decide at some point that I want to write about the = > >building of the Hoover Dam,=20 > > and then file that information away in my brain for later use. When I = > >sit down to write a poem, > > I am usually moved by either an image, or more often a phrase or a = > >rhythm...I negotiate > > my way through the language and eventually (I hope) arrive at an = > >idea...so I usually don't have > > a firm idea of what I'm writing about until I've written a great deal. = > > At some point during=20 > > this process, it might occur to me that *this* is the hoover dam poem = > >I've been meaning > > to write, so I revise accordingly. But I've already got *words* to = > >work with. > > > > As far as Jarman's comment is concerned, I think it's fine for *some* = > >poems to be about themselves.... > > > > Tony > > > >------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C2673C.294D36A0 > >Content-Type: text/html; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > > >charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > > > > > > >
Hi,
> >
 
> >
This whole conversation about words and = > >ideas seems=20 > >to be a version of the realist/idealist or content/form debate--a = > >conversation=20 > >that only makes sense on a theoretical level. I think that in most = > >writing there=20 > >may be a tension between the words and the ideas, but I think that=20 > >true writing relinguishes some responsibility if it can consciously = > >claim=20 > >allegiance to words or ideas. Another way to say this is that I think = > >that=20 > >writing and ideas--if we are to distinguish between them--are two = > >riddles. The=20 > >answer of one is the other. Neither question comes before the = > >other. They=20 > >are the same question. To put this in somewhat less pretentious = > >terms, it=20 > >seems clear that the formal solutions a writer develops over = > >time are=20 > >really the most honest transcriptions of thoughts. And yet the thoughts=20 > >themselves are not recognizable without these formal = > >details.
> >
 
> >
I've actually been thinking about this = > >issue a lot=20 > >(this issue =3D breaking language apart with computers). To come at this = > >from a=20 > >different direction: I've been watching Chinese movies for a=20 > >while and I've always been interested in the subtitles ( >href=3D"http://members.ozemail.com.au/~sharptongue/hksubs.html">http://me= > >mbers.ozemail.com.au/~sharptongue/hksubs.html;=20 > >some examples: " You slept with other women, being naked"; "Sock him=20 > >unconscious."; "They had so many argues") >size=3D2>. It=20 > >never really occurred to me that the subtitles would be comedic (I still = > >don't=20 > >really understand this point of view--how is this different of making = > >fun of=20 > >someone who doesn't speak English very well?). Instead I thought: these=20 > >subtitles would be very hard to write.
> >
 
> >
I've noticed in myself that, I = > >think because=20 > >my brain is sloppy, sometimes = > >it's very=20 > >difficult for me to speak grammatically (particularly subject-verb = > >tense=20 > >matches) and while I mean this of course in a half facetious way, = > >I noticed=20 > >some of this is creeping into my so-called poetry: phrases that I'm = > >not=20 > >sure if I really understand but which seem to be emotionally accurate. = > >I'm not=20 > >always sure what to do with these words, because they have a somewhat = > >hermetic=20 > >quality to them. I'm afraid if I puncture their surface, their = > >entire sense=20 > >of 'rightness' would deflate. Recently, I've begun reading pages = > >about=20 > >foreign movies through google's translation machine and then resorted to = > >trying=20 > >to capture the broken feeling of the language by running poetry = > >that I=20 > >found emotionally affecting through Altavista's translation machine. I = > >haven't=20 > >used any of the lines but I have found it interesting as a non-human = > >influence,=20 > >a kind of computer folk poetry.
> >
 
> >
In fact--lately, I feel like I'm = > >starting to lose=20 > >my words: I almost feel like it's gotten harder for me to think in = > >coherent=20 > >sentences, to write... So >face=3DArial=20 > >size=3D2> I'm not really sure how to justify this on a = > >theoretical=20 > >level, since I find it very difficult to read language poetry or = > >even John=20 > >Ashbery. I guess my 'solution'--and I don't know if this qualifies as = > >ideas or=20 > >words--is that I've been using this techniqure more in a 'novel' project = > >which=20 > >is another way of saying long poem with no line breaks. The setting of = > >this=20 > >thing is a world where causality, tautology, and thus memory do not = > >operate in a=20 > >logical way: characters are in two places at the same time; characters = > >fall in=20 > >love and do not know each other; one character's memory may infect = > >another=20 > >character's. I'm having a hard time with this but it seems reasonable = > >that under=20 > >these conditions, without memory or time, language wouldn't quite work = > >the same=20 > >way. Past tense would fall into present and so on. Anyways, I feel like = > >I should=20 > >apologize for getting so suddenly self-indulgent. If you're interested = > >in an=20 > >interesting pictoral parallel to this, check out Mark Napier's Shredder=20 > >( >href=3D"http://www.potatoland.org/shredder/shredder.html">http://www.pota= > >toland.org/shredder/shredder.html)=20 > >which takes webpages of your choosing and visually deconstructs them. = > >(The=20 > >typical result strike me as more visually compelling than most = > >David Carson=20 > >magazine spreads)
> >
 
> >
So sorry for taking so much of your = > >time. I've=20 > >never posted to this list before, but I've been pretty interested in the = > >recent=20 > >discussions, especially the one about Neglect. At the Bollingen thing at = > >Yale=20 > >last week, the panel was asked to name a neglected poet--I was = > >disapointed to=20 > >hear familiar names (David Jones, Kenneth Rexroth (whose Classics = > >Revisited I=20 > >admire)). I would add Djuna Barnes, Lieh-Tzu (not exactly the same kind = > >of=20 > >thing, but a Taoist writer who seems far less well known than Zhuang-zi = > >and=20 > >Lao-tze), and (and I've only read a few pages of this book) Charlotte = > >Wilder's=20 > >Phases of the Moon.
> >
 
> >
Best,
> >
Ken
> >
 
> >
 
> >
> >
 
> >
||||  |    | |  =20 > >|       |   || = > >|   =20 > >|         ||||=20 > >|       |   =20 > >|         |||| |   = > >|
> >
 
> >
Ken Chen
>href=3D"http://www.kenchen.org">http://www.kenchen.org  &nb= > >sp;           &nbs= > >p;            = > >;            = > >            &= > >nbsp;           &n= > >bsp;           &nb= > >sp;           &nbs= > >p;   =20 > >
mail: >href=3D"mailto:kensanway at hotmail.com">kensanway at hotmail.com &nbs= > >p;            = > >;            = > >            &= > >nbsp;      =20 > >
PO Box 207289, New Haven CT  06520-7289


> >
 
> >
 
> >
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = > >BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> > >
----- Original Message -----
> > > style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = > >black">From:=20 > > >href=3D"mailto:antrobin at clipper.net">Anthony=20 > > Robinson > > > >
Sent: Saturday, September 28, = > >2002 9:08=20 > > PM
> >
Subject: [New-Poetry] words vs. = > > > > ideas
> >

> >
Jeff,
> >
 
> >
Words usually precede ideas for me, = > >at least in=20 > > the making of a particular poem.
> >
That is, I might decide at some point = > >that I want=20 > > to write about the building of the Hoover Dam,
> >
and then file that information away = > >in my brain=20 > > for later use.  When I sit down to write a poem,
I am usually = > >moved by=20 > > either an image, or more often a phrase or a rhythm...I = > >negotiate
> >
my way through the language and = > >eventually (I=20 > > hope) arrive at an idea...so I usually don't have
> >
a firm idea of what I'm writing about = > >until I've=20 > > written a great deal.  At some point during
> >
this process, it might occur to me = > >that *this* is=20 > > the hoover dam poem I've been meaning
> >
to write, so I revise = > >accordingly.  But I've=20 > > already got *words* to work with.
> >
 
> >
As far as Jarman's comment is = > >concerned, I think=20 > > it's fine for *some* poems to be about themselves....
> >
 
> >
>size=3D2>Tony
> > > >------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C2673C.294D36A0-- > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >End of New-Poetry Digest > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Sep 29 06:40:01 2002 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 11:40:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka References: <200209290212.g8T2C4608245@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <029801c267a3$bcd808c0$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> Message-ID: <02bc01c267a4$95357040$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> Ooops -- sorry about that, people -- was meant to be backchannel!! RH. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 11:33 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Baraka > Hi, Richard. > > Thanks for sending me this -- I'm on new-poetry but (as with Buffalo) I've > been doing a mark-all-as-read without bothering with the posts. > > But if you're posting there, I might start looking. > > Nothing from Candice -- she had a long set of posts to poetryetc, so she's > around. But not, apparently, prepared to talk to me. > > Cheers, > > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 5:55 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka > > > > Baraka's poem is an excellent example of Radical Liberalism gone > > amok. He should appear with Algore and Teddy Kennedy at the > > Commonwealth Club to continue to advance their common cause of > > jackassIsm and treason. > > > > This is a very positive development. > > > > We need to have it out. Baraka is going to have to prove each and > > every one of his contentions or be seen as a total fraud. > > > > For instance, he believes that the 2000 election was fixed for President > Bush. > > We, his opponents, believe that his man, Al Gore, failed to steal the > > election with old time and high tech voter fraud. > > > > Let's see, hmmm. Where is slavery practiced at this hour? In what > country? > > > > How big is Farrakhan's house? > > > > Dan Rather's? > > > > Let's go to Al Gore's faux White House house. > > > > Hillarity Clintoon's? Excuse me, houses. > > > > Who shook down Coke with King's blood smeared on his hands? > > > > Who shook down the justice system with that White girl's blood on his > hands? > > > > Two can play this game, Baraka. > > > > Let's have at it. > > > > > > > > > > >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > > > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. Other Poets Laureate (David Graham) > > > 2. Re: Other Poets Laureate (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) > > > 3. Re: marketing (Cadaly at aol.com) > > > 4. Re: language translater and Collins (Jeff Newberry) > > > 5. Re: marketing (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > > 6. words vs. ideas (Anthony Robinson) > > > 7. Re: words vs. ideas (Ken Chen) > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 1 > > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 15:36:43 -0500 > > >From: "David Graham" > > >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Other Poets Laureate > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >In different laureate news, New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka has > been > > >asked by the governor to resign. Read the story at Poetry Daily, or at > this > > >link: > > > > > >http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/ap/sep02/ap-new-jersey-poet092802.asp > > > > > >And here's the poem that caused the ruckus. The charge, I take it, is > > >anti-semitism. > > > > > >http://diversity.uoregon.edu/SomebodyBlewUpAmerica.htm > > >======================================== > > >David Graham > > >Professor of English, Ripon College > > >grahamd at ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > Poetry Library: > > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > > > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, > > >undergraduate education." > > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > > >======================================= > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 2 > > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:15:25 -0700 > > >From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Other Poets Laureate > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >Seems to me Baraka is media savvy > > > > > > > > >David Graham wrote: > > > > > >> In different laureate news, New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka has > been > > >> asked by the governor to resign. Read the story at Poetry Daily, or > at this > > >> link: > > >> > > >> http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/ap/sep02/ap-new-jersey-poet092802.asp > > >> > > >> And here's the poem that caused the ruckus. The charge, I take it, is > > >> anti-semitism. > > >> > > >> http://diversity.uoregon.edu/SomebodyBlewUpAmerica.htm > > >> ======================================== > > >> David Graham > > >> Professor of English, Ripon College > > >> grahamd at ripon.edu > > >> Home Page: > > >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > >> Poetry Library: > > >> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > >> > > >> "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > > >> undergraduate education." > > >> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > > >> ======================================= > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 3 > > >From: Cadaly at aol.com > > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:57:55 EDT > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] marketing > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > > >--part1_164.14b1ce0e.2ac77fe3_boundary > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > >So I suppose my love of the failed products at Amazing Stores, Odd Job, > and > > >the 99 Cents Store is related to my love of overlooked women's writing? > > > > > >Is Mary Aldis' FLASHLIGHTS the poetry equivalent of scary irradiated > > >vegetables in equally menacing bright yellow butter-flavored sauce which > > >didn't require refrigeration or freezing (as you might be able to tell, I > > >lived on that for a while)? Is Eunice Tietjens prose poetry on China > like a > > >nail clipper shaped like a bunny rabbit (made in China)? Who writes a > > >product that could compare to a beach towel imprinted with the face of a > > >clown and pressed into a heart shape small enough to fit into the palm of > a > > >hand, but which requires wetting to expand, something which pretty much > > >eliminates usefulness as a towel? > > > > > >Rgds, > > >Catherine Daly > > >cadaly at pacbell.net > > > > > >--part1_164.14b1ce0e.2ac77fe3_boundary > > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > >FACE="Arial" LANG="0">So I suppose my love of the failed products at > > >Amazing Stores, Odd Job, and the 99 Cents Store is related to my > > >love of overlooked women's writing?
> > >
> > >Is Mary Aldis' FLASHLIGHTS the poetry equivalent of scary irradiated > > >vegetables in equally menacing bright yellow butter-flavored sauce > > >which didn't require refrigeration or freezing (as you might be able > > >to tell, I lived on that for a while)?  Is Eunice Tietjens > > >prose poetry on China like a nail clipper shaped like a bunny rabbit > > >(made in China)?  Who writes a product that could compare to a > > >beach towel imprinted with the face of a clown and pressed into a > > >heart shape small enough to fit into the palm of a hand, but which > > >requires wetting to expand, something which pretty much eliminates > > >usefulness as a towel? 
> > >
> > >Rgds,
> > >Catherine Daly
> > >cadaly at pacbell.net
> > > > > >--part1_164.14b1ce0e.2ac77fe3_boundary-- > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 4 > > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:42:29 -0700 (PDT) > > >From: Jeff Newberry > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--0-1232510035-1033260149=:1114 > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > > > >Tad, > > >I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas later. > > >However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about. I > > >needed ideas first, and then I began to write more. As Mark Jarman > > >once commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than > > >themselves." > > >However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame. I'm just > > >wondering about you other guys out there. How do you start? > > > > > >Jeff Newberry > > > theoldmole wrote:Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come > > >from? What are the > > >options? You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it (not an > > >approach I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and > follow > > >them to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in between. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > > >Do you Yahoo!? > > >New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > >--0-1232510035-1033260149=:1114 > > >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii > > > > > >

Tad, > > >

I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas > > >later.  However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to > > >write about.  I needed ideas first, and then I began to write > > >more.  As Mark Jarman once commented, "I want my poems to be > > >about something other than themselves." > > >

However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame.  I'm > > >just wondering about you other guys out there.  How do you > > >start? > > >

  > > >

Jeff Newberry > > >

 theoldmole wrote: > > >

Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to > > >come from? What are the
options? You either have an idea and try > > >to find words to fit it (not an
approach I'd recommend) or you > > >start with words, images, sounds, and follow
them to see if they > > >lead anywhere. Or something in > > >between.


Do you Yahoo!?
> > >New > >href="http://rd.yahoo.com/evt=1207/*http://sbc.yahoo.com/">DSL > > >Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > >--0-1232510035-1033260149=:1114-- > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 5 > > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:05:44 EDT > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] marketing > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > > >--part1_134.1516acf5.2ac7abe8_boundary > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > >In a message dated 9/28/2002 4:59:10 PM Central Daylight Time, > Cadaly at aol.com > > >writes: > > >> Who writes a product that could compare to a beach towel imprinted > with the > > >> face of a clown and pressed into a heart shape small enough to fit > into the > > >> palm of a hand, but which requires wetting to expand, something which > > >> pretty much eliminates usefulness as a towel? > > >> > > >Actually, I've always thought my own stuff was roughly the equivalent of > the > > >Velvet Elvis that adorns my office wall. > > > > > >--part1_134.1516acf5.2ac7abe8_boundary > > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > >FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 9/28/2002 4:59:10 > > >PM Central Daylight Time, Cadaly at aol.com writes: > >COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 > > >FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
> > >
Who writes a > > >product that could compare to a beach towel imprinted with the face > > >of a clown and pressed into a heart shape small enough to fit into > > >the palm of a hand, but which requires wetting to expand, something > > >which pretty much eliminates usefulness as a towel? 
> > > > >SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">

> > > > >SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">Actually, I've > > >always thought my own stuff was roughly the equivalent of the Velvet > > >Elvis that adorns my office wall. > > > > > >--part1_134.1516acf5.2ac7abe8_boundary-- > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 6 > > >From: "Anthony Robinson" > > >To: > > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:08:15 -0700 > > >Subject: [New-Poetry] words vs. ideas > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_0849_01C2671A.0428F980 > > >Content-Type: text/plain; > > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > >Jeff, > > > > > >Words usually precede ideas for me, at least in the making of a = > > >particular poem. > > >That is, I might decide at some point that I want to write about the = > > >building of the Hoover Dam,=20 > > >and then file that information away in my brain for later use. When I = > > >sit down to write a poem, > > >I am usually moved by either an image, or more often a phrase or a = > > >rhythm...I negotiate > > >my way through the language and eventually (I hope) arrive at an = > > >idea...so I usually don't have > > >a firm idea of what I'm writing about until I've written a great deal. = > > >At some point during=20 > > >this process, it might occur to me that *this* is the hoover dam poem = > > >I've been meaning > > >to write, so I revise accordingly. But I've already got *words* to work > = > > >with. > > > > > >As far as Jarman's comment is concerned, I think it's fine for *some* = > > >poems to be about themselves.... > > > > > >Tony > > >*** > > >"The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." > > >Emily Dickinson > > > > > >*** > > >"I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the = > > >Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the = > > >sixteenth century." > > >C. Montgomery Burns > > > > > >*** > > >"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in = > > >poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but = > > >which would be better left alone." > > >Kenneth Koch > > > > > >*** > > >...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its > = > > >in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. > > >Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"=20 > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > > From: Jeff Newberry=20 > > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > > > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 5:42 PM > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins > > > > > > > > > Tad,=20 > > > > > > I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas later. = > > >However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about. I = > > >needed ideas first, and then I began to write more. As Mark Jarman once > = > > >commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than = > > >themselves."=20 > > > > > > However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame. I'm just = > > >wondering about you other guys out there. How do you start?=20 > > > > > > =20 > > > > > > Jeff Newberry=20 > > > > > > theoldmole wrote:=20 > > > > > > Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come from? What are = > > >the > > > options? You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it = > > >(not an > > > approach I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and > = > > >follow > > > them to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in between. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------= > > >----- > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_0849_01C2671A.0428F980 > > >Content-Type: text/html; > > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > > > > > > > >charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Jeff,
> > >
 
> > >
Words usually precede ideas for me, at = > > >least in the=20 > > >making of a particular poem.
> > >
That is, I might decide at some point = > > >that I want=20 > > >to write about the building of the Hoover Dam,
> > >
and then file that information away in = > > >my brain for=20 > > >later use.  When I sit down to write a poem,
I am usually moved = > > >by=20 > > >either an image, or more often a phrase or a rhythm...I = > > >negotiate
> > >
my way through the language and = > > >eventually (I hope)=20 > > >arrive at an idea...so I usually don't have
> > >
a firm idea of what I'm writing about = > > >until I've=20 > > >written a great deal.  At some point during
> > >
this process, it might occur to me that > = > > >*this* is=20 > > >the hoover dam poem I've been meaning
> > >
to write, so I revise = > > >accordingly.  But I've=20 > > >already got *words* to work with.
> > >
 
> > >
As far as Jarman's comment is = > > >concerned, I think=20 > > >it's fine for *some* poems to be about themselves....
> > >
 
> > >
Tony
> > >
***
"The incredible never surprises us because it is the=20 > > >incredible."
Emily Dickinson
> > >
 
> > >
***
"I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets > = > > >of the=20 > > >Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the = > > >sixteenth=20 > > >century."
C. Montgomery Burns
> > >
 
> > >
***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous = > > >gap in=20 > > >poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but = > > >which would=20 > > >be better left alone."
Kenneth Koch
> > >
 
> > >
***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us > = > > >but yet=20 > > >its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, = > > >"Riddley=20 > > >Walker"
> > >
 
> > >
 
> > > > >style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = > > >BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> > > >
----- Original Message -----
> > > > > style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = > > >black">From:=20 > > > > >href=3D"mailto:jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com">Jeff=20 > > > Newberry > > > > > >
Sent: Saturday, September 28, = > > >2002 5:42=20 > > > PM
> > >
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] = > > >language=20 > > > translater and Collins
> > >

> > >

Tad,=20 > > >

I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas = > > >later. =20 > > > However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about.  > = > > >I=20 > > > needed ideas first, and then I began to write more.  As Mark = > > >Jarman once=20 > > > commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than = > > >themselves."=20 > > >

However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame.  I'm = > > >just=20 > > > wondering about you other guys out there.  How do you start?=20 > > >

=20 > > >

Jeff Newberry=20 > > >

 theoldmole wrote:=20 > > > > > style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px > = > > >solid">Good=20 > > > Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come from? What are = > > >the
options?=20 > > > You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it (not = > > >an
approach=20 > > > I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and = > > >follow
them=20 > > > to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in = > > >between.

> > >


> > >

> > > Do you Yahoo!?
New > > href=3D"http://rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D1207/*http://sbc.yahoo.com/">DSL = > > >Internet=20 > > > Access from SBC & Yahoo! > > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_0849_01C2671A.0428F980-- > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 7 > > >From: "Ken Chen" > > >To: > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] words vs. ideas > > >Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 22:12:40 -0400 > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C2673C.294D36A0 > > >Content-Type: text/plain; > > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > >Hi, > > > > > >This whole conversation about words and ideas seems to be a version of = > > >the realist/idealist or content/form debate--a conversation that only = > > >makes sense on a theoretical level. I think that in most writing there = > > >may be a tension between the words and the ideas, but I think that true = > > >writing relinguishes some responsibility if it can consciously claim = > > >allegiance to words or ideas. Another way to say this is that I think = > > >that writing and ideas--if we are to distinguish between them--are two = > > >riddles. The answer of one is the other. Neither question comes before = > > >the other. They are the same question. To put this in somewhat less = > > >pretentious terms, it seems clear that the formal solutions a writer = > > >develops over time are really the most honest transcriptions of = > > >thoughts. And yet the thoughts themselves are not recognizable without = > > >these formal details. > > > > > >I've actually been thinking about this issue a lot (this issue =3D = > > >breaking language apart with computers). To come at this from a = > > >different direction: I've been watching Chinese movies for a while and = > > >I've always been interested in the subtitles = > > >(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~sharptongue/hksubs.html; some examples: = > > >" You slept with other women, being naked"; "Sock him unconscious."; = > > >"They had so many argues"). It never really occurred to me that the = > > >subtitles would be comedic (I still don't really understand this point = > > >of view--how is this different of making fun of someone who doesn't = > > >speak English very well?). Instead I thought: these subtitles would be = > > >very hard to write.=20 > > > > > >I've noticed in myself that, I think because my brain is sloppy, = > > >sometimes it's very difficult for me to speak grammatically = > > >(particularly subject-verb tense matches) and while I mean this of = > > >course in a half facetious way, I noticed some of this is creeping into = > > >my so-called poetry: phrases that I'm not sure if I really understand = > > >but which seem to be emotionally accurate. I'm not always sure what to = > > >do with these words, because they have a somewhat hermetic quality to = > > >them. I'm afraid if I puncture their surface, their entire sense of = > > >'rightness' would deflate. Recently, I've begun reading pages about = > > >foreign movies through google's translation machine and then resorted to > = > > >trying to capture the broken feeling of the language by running poetry = > > >that I found emotionally affecting through Altavista's translation = > > >machine. I haven't used any of the lines but I have found it interesting > = > > >as a non-human influence, a kind of computer folk poetry.=20 > > > > > >In fact--lately, I feel like I'm starting to lose my words: I almost = > > >feel like it's gotten harder for me to think in coherent sentences, to = > > >write... So I'm not really sure how to justify this on a theoretical = > > >level, since I find it very difficult to read language poetry or even = > > >John Ashbery. I guess my 'solution'--and I don't know if this qualifies = > > >as ideas or words--is that I've been using this techniqure more in a = > > >'novel' project which is another way of saying long poem with no line = > > >breaks. The setting of this thing is a world where causality, tautology, > = > > >and thus memory do not operate in a logical way: characters are in two = > > >places at the same time; characters fall in love and do not know each = > > >other; one character's memory may infect another character's. I'm having > = > > >a hard time with this but it seems reasonable that under these = > > >conditions, without memory or time, language wouldn't quite work the = > > >same way. Past tense would fall into present and so on. Anyways, I feel = > > >like I should apologize for getting so suddenly self-indulgent. If = > > >you're interested in an interesting pictoral parallel to this, check out > = > > >Mark Napier's Shredder = > > >(http://www.potatoland.org/shredder/shredder.html) which takes webpages = > > >of your choosing and visually deconstructs them. (The typical result = > > >strike me as more visually compelling than most David Carson magazine = > > >spreads) > > > > > >So sorry for taking so much of your time. I've never posted to this list > = > > >before, but I've been pretty interested in the recent discussions, = > > >especially the one about Neglect. At the Bollingen thing at Yale last = > > >week, the panel was asked to name a neglected poet--I was disapointed to > = > > >hear familiar names (David Jones, Kenneth Rexroth (whose Classics = > > >Revisited I admire)). I would add Djuna Barnes, Lieh-Tzu (not exactly = > > >the same kind of thing, but a Taoist writer who seems far less well = > > >known than Zhuang-zi and Lao-tze), and (and I've only read a few pages = > > >of this book) Charlotte Wilder's Phases of the Moon. > > > > > >Best, > > >Ken > > > > > > > > > > > >|||| | | | | | || | | |||| | | | > = > > > |||| | | > > > > > >Ken Chen > > >http://www.kenchen.org > = > > > =20 > > >mail: kensanway at hotmail.com > = > > > > > >PO Box 207289, New Haven CT 06520-7289=20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > > From: Anthony Robinson=20 > > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > > > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 9:08 PM > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] words vs. ideas > > > > > > > > > Jeff, > > > > > > Words usually precede ideas for me, at least in the making of a = > > >particular poem. > > > That is, I might decide at some point that I want to write about the = > > >building of the Hoover Dam,=20 > > > and then file that information away in my brain for later use. When I > = > > >sit down to write a poem, > > > I am usually moved by either an image, or more often a phrase or a = > > >rhythm...I negotiate > > > my way through the language and eventually (I hope) arrive at an = > > >idea...so I usually don't have > > > a firm idea of what I'm writing about until I've written a great deal. > = > > > At some point during=20 > > > this process, it might occur to me that *this* is the hoover dam poem > = > > >I've been meaning > > > to write, so I revise accordingly. But I've already got *words* to = > > >work with. > > > > > > As far as Jarman's comment is concerned, I think it's fine for *some* > = > > >poems to be about themselves.... > > > > > > Tony > > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C2673C.294D36A0 > > >Content-Type: text/html; > > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > > > > > > > >charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Hi,
> > >
 
> > >
This whole conversation about words and > = > > >ideas seems=20 > > >to be a version of the realist/idealist or content/form debate--a = > > >conversation=20 > > >that only makes sense on a theoretical level. I think that in most = > > >writing there=20 > > >may be a tension between the words and the ideas, but I think that=20 > > >true writing relinguishes some responsibility if it can consciously > = > > >claim=20 > > >allegiance to words or ideas. Another way to say this is that I think = > > >that=20 > > >writing and ideas--if we are to distinguish between them--are two = > > >riddles. The=20 > > >answer of one is the other. Neither question comes before the = > > >other. They=20 > > >are the same question. To put this in somewhat less pretentious = > > >terms, it=20 > > >seems clear that the formal solutions a writer develops over = > > >time are=20 > > >really the most honest transcriptions of thoughts. And yet the > thoughts=20 > > >themselves are not recognizable without these formal = > > >details.
> > >
 
> > >
I've actually been thinking about this = > > >issue a lot=20 > > >(this issue =3D breaking language apart with computers). To come at this > = > > >from a=20 > > >different direction: I've been watching Chinese movies for a=20 > > >while and I've always been interested in the subtitles ( > > >href=3D"http://members.ozemail.com.au/~sharptongue/hksubs.html">http://me= > > >mbers.ozemail.com.au/~sharptongue/hksubs.html;=20 > > >some examples: " You slept with other women, being naked"; "Sock him=20 > > >unconscious."; "They had so many argues") > >size=3D2>. It=20 > > >never really occurred to me that the subtitles would be comedic (I still > = > > >don't=20 > > >really understand this point of view--how is this different of making = > > >fun of=20 > > >someone who doesn't speak English very well?). Instead I thought: > these=20 > > >subtitles would be very hard to write.
> > >
 
> > >
I've noticed in myself that, I = > > >think because=20 > > >my brain is sloppy, sometimes = > > >it's very=20 > > >difficult for me to speak grammatically (particularly subject-verb = > > >tense=20 > > >matches) and while I mean this of course in a half facetious way, = > > >I noticed=20 > > >some of this is creeping into my so-called poetry: phrases that I'm > = > > >not=20 > > >sure if I really understand but which seem to be emotionally accurate. = > > >I'm not=20 > > >always sure what to do with these words, because they have a somewhat = > > >hermetic=20 > > >quality to them. I'm afraid if I puncture their surface, their = > > >entire sense=20 > > >of 'rightness' would deflate. Recently, I've begun reading pages = > > >about=20 > > >foreign movies through google's translation machine and then resorted to > = > > >trying=20 > > >to capture the broken feeling of the language by running poetry = > > >that I=20 > > >found emotionally affecting through Altavista's translation machine. I = > > >haven't=20 > > >used any of the lines but I have found it interesting as a non-human = > > >influence,=20 > > >a kind of computer folk poetry.
> > >
 
> > >
In fact--lately, I feel like I'm = > > >starting to lose=20 > > >my words: I almost feel like it's gotten harder for me to think in = > > >coherent=20 > > >sentences, to write... So = > > >face=3DArial=20 > > >size=3D2> I'm not really sure how to justify this on a = > > >theoretical=20 > > >level, since I find it very difficult to read language poetry or = > > >even John=20 > > >Ashbery. I guess my 'solution'--and I don't know if this qualifies as = > > >ideas or=20 > > >words--is that I've been using this techniqure more in a 'novel' project > = > > >which=20 > > >is another way of saying long poem with no line breaks. The setting of = > > >this=20 > > >thing is a world where causality, tautology, and thus memory do not = > > >operate in a=20 > > >logical way: characters are in two places at the same time; characters = > > >fall in=20 > > >love and do not know each other; one character's memory may infect = > > >another=20 > > >character's. I'm having a hard time with this but it seems reasonable = > > >that under=20 > > >these conditions, without memory or time, language wouldn't quite work = > > >the same=20 > > >way. Past tense would fall into present and so on. Anyways, I feel like = > > >I should=20 > > >apologize for getting so suddenly self-indulgent. If you're interested = > > >in an=20 > > >interesting pictoral parallel to this, check out Mark Napier's > Shredder=20 > > >( > > >href=3D"http://www.potatoland.org/shredder/shredder.html">http://www.pota= > > >toland.org/shredder/shredder.html)=20 > > >which takes webpages of your choosing and visually deconstructs them. = > > >(The=20 > > >typical result strike me as more visually compelling than most = > > >David Carson=20 > > >magazine spreads)
> > >
 
> > >
So sorry for taking so much of your = > > >time. I've=20 > > >never posted to this list before, but I've been pretty interested in the > = > > >recent=20 > > >discussions, especially the one about Neglect. At the Bollingen thing at > = > > >Yale=20 > > >last week, the panel was asked to name a neglected poet--I was = > > >disapointed to=20 > > >hear familiar names (David Jones, Kenneth Rexroth (whose Classics = > > >Revisited I=20 > > >admire)). I would add Djuna Barnes, Lieh-Tzu (not exactly the same kind = > > >of=20 > > >thing, but a Taoist writer who seems far less well known than Zhuang-zi = > > >and=20 > > >Lao-tze), and (and I've only read a few pages of this book) Charlotte = > > >Wilder's=20 > > >Phases of the Moon.
> > >
 
> > >
Best,
> > >
Ken
> > >
 
> > >
 
> > >
> > >
 
> > >
||||  |    | |  =20 > > >|       |   || = > > >|   =20 > > >|         ||||=20 > > >|       |   =20 > > >|         |||| |   = > > >|
> > >
 
> > >
Ken Chen
> > >href=3D"http://www.kenchen.org">http://www.kenchen.org  &nb= > > > >sp;           &nbs= > > > >p;            = > > > >;            = > > > >            &= > > > >nbsp;           &n= > > > >bsp;           &nb= > > > >sp;           &nbs= > > >p;   =20 > > >
mail: > > >href=3D"mailto:kensanway at hotmail.com">kensanway at hotmail.com &nbs= > > > >p;            = > > > >;            = > > > >            &= > > >nbsp;      =20 > > >
PO Box 207289, New Haven CT  06520-7289


> > >
 
> > >
 
> > >
> >style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = > > >BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> > > >
----- Original Message -----
> > > > > style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = > > >black">From:=20 > > > > >href=3D"mailto:antrobin at clipper.net">Anthony=20 > > > Robinson > > > > > >
Sent: Saturday, September 28, = > > >2002 9:08=20 > > > PM
> > >
Subject: [New-Poetry] words vs. > = > > > > > > ideas
> > >

> > >
Jeff,
> > >
 
> > >
Words usually precede ideas for me, = > > >at least in=20 > > > the making of a particular poem.
> > >
That is, I might decide at some point > = > > >that I want=20 > > > to write about the building of the Hoover Dam,
> > >
and then file that information away = > > >in my brain=20 > > > for later use.  When I sit down to write a poem,
I am usually > = > > >moved by=20 > > > either an image, or more often a phrase or a rhythm...I = > > >negotiate
> > >
my way through the language and = > > >eventually (I=20 > > > hope) arrive at an idea...so I usually don't have
> > >
a firm idea of what I'm writing about > = > > >until I've=20 > > > written a great deal.  At some point during
> > >
this process, it might occur to me = > > >that *this* is=20 > > > the hoover dam poem I've been meaning
> > >
to write, so I revise = > > >accordingly.  But I've=20 > > > already got *words* to work with.
> > >
 
> > >
As far as Jarman's comment is = > > >concerned, I think=20 > > > it's fine for *some* poems to be about themselves....
> > >
 
> > >
> >size=3D2>Tony
> > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C2673C.294D36A0-- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >New-Poetry mailing list > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > >End of New-Poetry Digest > > > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Sun Sep 29 09:08:00 2002 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (Michael Magee) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 09:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Other Poets Laureate In-Reply-To: <3D961BEC.5A685BCC@earthlink.net> from "Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino" at Sep 28, 2002 02:15:25 pm Message-ID: <200209291308.g8TD80K8022422@dept.english.upenn.edu> I agree with Chris here, Baraka is, and has always been, very media savvy, and crazy like a fox. Few American poets have ever had a clearer understanding of the poem as unavoidably rhetorical, and few poets have been better at employing the poem to organize a social space. Whatever ruckus develops over this poem, you can be sure Baraka himself is not surprised by it. As for the poem itself, I think its worthy of our attention - for instance, the decision to couch it all as a series of questions and implications. We might say that the answers to these questions are supposed to be obvious but I'm not sure that this closes the book on the poem. There's something symptomatic about the fact that one can only prosecute the government's alleged nefarious actions in this way. (I say "alleged" forthe sake of argument, there's no doubt in my own mind that the US Govt does nefarious things all the time, and while I don't believe they had any direct involvement in the 9/11 attacks, I do believe that the US Govts internatonal policies post-WWII created a global environment where this was almost bound to happen). One certainly doesn't have to be anti-semitic to critique Sharon's Israel - to suggest this is to render the whole discourse of anti-semitism toothless. I don't finally find the poem anti-semitic. If the poem has a fault in its use of content, it's in lines such as "Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed / Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers / To stay home that day" - lines which rely on precisely the kind of tabloid-media rumors that Baraka himself should despise: after all, the barons of Big Capital have never had a problem with a good conspiracy theory that sold alot of yellow newspapers: hell, that's they're stock and trade. The utterly implausible notion that 4,000 Israeli workers were contacted pre-9/11 (thus creating a gigantic security breech for the hijackers!) does nothing except sell the story, and in employing it, a critique might go, Baraka dupes himself and sabatoges his poem. This doesn't necessarily make the poem less interesting, as I say, it's symptomatic. A more interesting question than, should Baraka resign as Poet Laureate of NJ is, what were the conditions under which he became poet Laureate in the first place? -m. According to Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino: > > Seems to me Baraka is media savvy > > > David Graham wrote: > > > In different laureate news, New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka has been > > asked by the governor to resign. Read the story at Poetry Daily, or at this > > link: > > > > http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/ap/sep02/ap-new-jersey-poet092802.asp > > > > And here's the poem that caused the ruckus. The charge, I take it, is > > anti-semitism. > > > > http://diversity.uoregon.edu/SomebodyBlewUpAmerica.htm > > ======================================== > > David Graham > > Professor of English, Ripon College > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > > "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > > undergraduate education." > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > > ======================================= > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Sep 29 09:30:24 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 09:30:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Baraka Message-ID: Here's today's episode from the NYT. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- September 29, 2002 New Jersey's Unrepentant Poet of Indignation By MATTHER PURDY NEWARK JUST before Gov. James E. McGreevey introduced Amiri Baraka last month as New Jersey's new poet laureate, the celebrated and controversial activist writer said he warned the governor this might happen. "I said, `Governor, you're going to catch a lot of hell for this,' " Mr. Baraka said. "He said, `I don't care.' I said, `If you don't care, I don't care.' " Mr. Baraka still doesn't care. But the governor suddenly does. Political turmoil has found the last virgin turf in New Jersey public life: the poet laureate. The governor has demanded that Mr. Baraka resign because a poem he read at a poetry festival 10 days ago said Israel had advance knowledge of the Sept. 11 attacks. Mr. Baraka is refusing to resign. The governor's aides say Mr. McGreevey cannot remove Mr. Baraka from his two-year term, since he was selected by a committee of poets and cultural aficionados. State law gives that group the power only to select, not oust, laureates. Besides, poets are usually ignored, not censored. "A sticky wicket," said a State House aide, apparently practicing for the laureate's job, should it open up. In his offending poem, entitled "Somebody Blew Up America," a litany of massacres and oppression, Mr. Baraka refers to five Israelis filming the attacks, and asks: Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers To stay home that day Why did Sharon stay away? In an interview Thursday, the day before the governor demanded his resignation, Mr. Baraka was unrepentant. The artist formerly known as LeRoi Jones has had so many phases ? Greenwich Village beatnik, Harlem black nationalist, bloodied warrior of the 1967 Newark riots, Marxist, critic of Newark mayors ? that he seemed unfazed by the rocky start of his laureate phase. Told he offended people, he said: "I know. What can I do? I'm not perfect, alas." Reading the Internet convinced him that Israel knew about Sept. 11 beforehand. "Obviously they knew about it, like Bush knew about it," he said. Espousing a theory popular in parts of the Muslim world, he said the White House let it happen to get "carte blanche" to have its way with Afghanistan, Iraq, the rest of the Middle East. President Bush knew in advance? "Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely." And he added: "So did the Russians, so did the Germans. Why do you think investors sold their stock in United and American Airlines the month before?" Mr. Baraka's career at the keyboard and on the street has been guided by the view that the powerful conspire against the powerless. "Terrorism," he said. "Black people. We've been terrorized for years. There's been no alert to stop the K.K.K. and the skinheads." OVER the years, Mr. Baraka has been lauded and accused every which way. The American Academy of Arts and Letters called him "one of the most important African-American poets since Langston Hughes" when it inducted him last year. He pleads guilty to the Communist label and regrets his early anti-white writings. In 1980, he wrote a self-defense entitled "Confessions of a Former Anti-Semite." Mr. Baraka, 67, gray and slightly hunched, holds court in a large house in a faded Newark neighborhood. His suspicion of power oozes from every pore. He mentions that he was named poet laureate at the governor's mansion, called Drumthwacket. Could a poet laureate ever use Drumthwacket in a poem? "Let's see," he said, hardly missing a beat: This place must have some kind of racket To be named Drumthwacket. His selection as laureate honored his strong voice, long career and prominence. The committee chairwoman, Judith Pinch, said that the group felt he could promote poetry among city youths and that "his strengths outweighed some past reputation for being slightly outrageous." This standoff between governor and poet is surprising in a state with a poetic tradition that includes Walt Whitman, William Carlos Williams, Allen Ginsberg and a Turnpike rest stop named for Joyce Kilmer. But Mr. Baraka said, superfluously, that he dislikes poetry "as decoration." He likes strong stuff that rattles people. "If they resent what I'm saying, I can resent their resentment," he said, "but I'm not going to censor them." "Whatever they want to say, they can't say, `He's changed,' " Mr. Baraka said, referring to himself. "They'll say, `We're trying to cool him out with the poet laureate thing, but he's still nutty.' " Copyright The New York Times Company | Permissions | Privacy Policy From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Sep 29 09:38:54 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 09:38:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Amiri Baraka, "The Turncoat" Message-ID: The Turncoat The steel fibrous slant & ribboned glint of water. The Sea. Even my secret speech is moist with it. When I am alone & brooding, locked in with dull memories & self hate, & the terrible disorder of a young man. I move slowly. My cape spread stiff & pressing cautiously in the first night wind off the Hudson. I glide down onto my own roof, peering in at the pitiful shadow of myself. How can it mean anything? The stop & spout, the wind's dumb shift. Creak of the house & wet smells coming in. Night forms on my left. The blind still up to admit a sun that no longer exists. Sea move. I dream long bays & towers . . . & soft steps on moist sand. I become them, sometimes. Pure flight. Pure fantasy. Lean. --Amiri Baraka (then LeRoi Jones), 1959 From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Sep 29 10:23:52 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 10:23:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins References: <20020929004229.2324.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001c267c3$d6ec76e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Jeff -- there's no one way to write...certainly not for every poet, and not even for any one poet. What works for me one day won't work the next. I've written a few poems that I've liked, and kept, using this method. I've written -- or started -- a lot more poems that have been dead ends, and I've discarded. I agree with you and Jarman that poems have to be about something, but I've found that if I'm too locked into what it's about, that can be a dead end too. Richard Hugo's wonderful "The Triggering Town" suggests: "A poem can be said to have two subjects, the initiating or triggering subject, which starts the poem or 'causes' the poem to be written, and the real or generated subject, which the poem comes to say or mean, and which is generated or discovered in the poem during the writing." Marshock, in the essay I quoted to start all this, says that she goes to the process of playing with words, or teasing words, when she has an idea that she can't quite get to: "The idea is there, running back and forth, but the words are hidden under it. No matter how you coax it, tease it, threaten it, that one line that would let the poem issue forth doesn't let you touch it. I've started poems with gibberish just to have something on the page. I've started new poems under the lines of old ones. I've tried it all, found lines, borrowed lines, and still , somedays, they'll just sit and stare back at me. In the the past couple of months, I've had some success with jump-starting the process by creating translingual collage poems. I've actually come up with a couple of new works that I like . This is a type of transformation poem which borrows the work of another poet or writer. Not with the idea of using the writers words or his intent as my own, but with the purpose of finding one phrase or word that has an aesthetic promise." When I've used translingual collaging myself, I've gone to other poems occasionally, more often to sources like the "Lurid Paperback of the Week" website. When you start with an idea, do look for words that illustrate your idea? Or do you then use words to lead you into possibilities you couldn't have imagined when you started? SITUATIONS pub date August 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins Tad, I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas later. However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about. I needed ideas first, and then I began to write more. As Mark Jarman once commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than themselves." However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame. I'm just wondering about you other guys out there. How do you start? Jeff Newberry theoldmole wrote: Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come from? What are the options? You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it (not an approach I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and follow them to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in between. Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sun Sep 29 11:20:51 2002 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 08:20:51 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ranting Leroy In-Reply-To: <200209291038.g8TAc3610204@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020929081421.009fb9d0@incoming.verizon.net> At 06:38 AM 9/29/02 -0400, David Graham wrote: > The charge, I take it, is anti-semitism. odd that Baraka, master of vile canards, failed to slip in a riff on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (but, sly dog, he did manage to slide round the question of why so many brothahs stayed home that one particular September morning -- we all know that as FACT, right?) disgustedly, Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 29 13:57:46 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 12:57:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poet: Evans Message-ID: <200209291756.g8THudxF093767@mx5.mx.voyager.net> FROM AN OFFSHORE ISLAND (September Gale) Hear now the ocean trouncing off this island, The under-roar of wind down unfenced sea, And through chance flaws, like dim light down a tunnel, The bell buoy spent with distance. Orion's chill, washed, subterranean glitter Wheels up from under, and great Rigel blazes Between tossed oak boughs that the gale of autumn Tears at, lifts, lets fall. Old ocean's hoarse and implicated roaring Brings me up sitting at the dead of night, Its pent-in mouthless fury calling back The wild first of creation, The rage, the might, the rampage. How shall I Up from this anchored rock not make answer, I with my bones of rock-dust hardly knitted And my blood still salt from the sea? ---Abbie Huston Evans, from *Fact of Crystal*, 1961 _______________ Here's a poet who is rarely mentioned these days, all of whose work seems to be out of print, who is in few if any anthologies, and might qualify as truly neglected. Once she won prestige prizes, was published by Harcourt, enjoyed praise from the likes of Richard Wilbur. . . . and she was Edna St. Vincent Millay's Sunday school teacher. She wrote some good stuff, in a publishing career that ranged from 1928 to 1970. Lived to be over 100 years old, too, as I recall. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 29 15:00:20 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 15:00:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Other Poets Laureate Message-ID: <39.2d9a9058.2ac8a7c4@aol.com> In a message dated 9/29/02 9:09:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu writes: > A more > interesting question than, should Baraka resign as Poet Laureate of NJ is, > what were the conditions under which he became poet Laureate in the first > place? According to the NYTimes Baraka was selected by a "commttee of poets and cultural afficionados." The chairwoman is quoted as saying..."his (Baraka's) strengths outweighed his some past reputation for being slightly outrageous." (There's a bit understatement.) The article also quotes Baraka trying to persuade Gov. McGreevy not to go forward with naming him the NJ laureate: "I said, Governor, you're going to catch a lot of hell for this." (Prophecy fulfilled.) I'm very much in sympathy with Baraka's politics on many counts, but I'm not sure he's so media savvy in this case. Baraka has clearly put his foot in his mouth; it will be hard now to claim it was America's jackboot. Perhaps Baraka is positioning himself as the literary version of Rev. Al Sharpton Finnegan From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Sep 29 15:00:54 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 15:00:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi References: <3.0.3.16.20020919134532.2e57a3a8@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <018b01c267ea$89fa84e0$23b5fea9@j1c1k6> I'm neutral about Fadiman. I enjoyed reading him when I was a teen-ager first going beyond reading for plot only, but I later found him pretty badly middle-brow or lower. Ciardi was much better. He wrote some good poems, and I think his Dante was pretty good. I remember his writings for the Saturday Review (and where is its equivalent today?) fondly, though I don't now remember what poems he talked about. His How Does A Poem Mean I still consider about as good an introductory book to pre-Burstnorm poetry as there is, and I suspect my own book about poetry, Of Manywhere-at-Once, follows it pretty closely. I never became a great fan of his poetry, I'm not sure why, because I never made any great attempt to read it. I do know that I've read a couple of poems by him that I thought good ones. --Bob G., trying to catch up after being out of town for over a week ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Greenwald" To: Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 1:45 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Ciardi > In a message dated 9/17/02 11:35:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > writes: > > > We all smirk at people like Clifton > > Fadiman and John Ciardi, but they did manage to keep poets and poetry in > > front of the general public. Who does this today? > > Just a reminder that Ciardi translated The Divine Comedy. > Whatever one may think of his own poetry, or for that matter > of his version of Dante, _anyone_ who not only attempts > but completes a translation of The Divine Comedy has > a claim on eternal respect! > > As for who keeps poets and poetry in front of the general > public (or anyway, that portion of it that pays attention at all), > I'm sure we can all name poets who manage to keep _themselves_ > in the public eye ;-) -- but if you mean in a less self-serving > way, I think Pinsky deserves a lot of credit for keeping > at it even after his official brief ended (he's often on NPR); > and although it's not exactly a general public, at least > readers of the N Y Review are getting a few more reviews > of poetry now that Charles Simic has started writing regularly > for that journal. > > Roger Greenwald > roger at chass.utoronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Sep 29 15:07:51 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 15:07:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Other Poets Laureate References: <39.2d9a9058.2ac8a7c4@aol.com> Message-ID: <019901c267eb$82b0de40$23b5fea9@j1c1k6> > > A more > > interesting question than, should Baraka resign as Poet Laureate of NJ is, > > what were the conditions under which he became poet Laureate in the first > > place? > According to the NYTimes Baraka was selected by a "commttee of poets > and cultural afficionados." The chairwoman is quoted as saying..."his > (Baraka's) strengths outweighed his some past reputation for being > slightly outrageous." (There's a bit understatement.) > The article also quotes Baraka trying to persuade Gov. McGreevy > not to go forward with naming him the NJ laureate: "I said, Governor, > you're going to catch a lot of hell for this." (Prophecy fulfilled.) > I'm very much in sympathy with Baraka's politics on many counts, > but I'm not sure he's so media savvy in this case. Baraka has clearly > put his foot in his mouth; it will be hard now to claim it was America's > jackboot. > Perhaps Baraka is positioning himself as the literary version > of Rev. Al Sharpton > Finnegan That wouldn't make much sense since Sharpton long ago positioned himself as the political version of Baraka. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Sep 29 15:11:30 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 15:11:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Amiri Baraka, "The Turncoat" References: Message-ID: <01a101c267ec$04b97140$23b5fea9@j1c1k6> > The Turncoat > > The steel fibrous slant & ribboned glint > of water. The Sea. Even my secret speech is moist > with it. When I am alone & brooding, locked in > with dull memories & self hate, & the terrible disorder > of a young man. > > I move slowly. My cape spread stiff & pressing cautiously > in the first night wind off the Hudson. I glide down > onto my own roof, peering in at the pitiful shadow of myself. > > How can it mean anything? The stop & spout, the > wind's dumb shift. Creak of the house & wet smells > coming in. Night forms on my left. The blind still > up to admit a sun that no longer exists. Sea move. > > I dream long bays & towers . . . & soft steps on moist sand. > I become them, sometimes. Pure flight. Pure fantasy. Lean. > > --Amiri Baraka (then LeRoi Jones), 1959 I'd call this an okay poem. LeRoi was a pretty fair second-line poet at times. Has Baraka written any poems even as good as the above? Has he even written any poetry (as opposed to what I call advocature)? --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Sep 29 15:15:36 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 15:15:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Baraka References: Message-ID: <01a701c267ec$98250160$23b5fea9@j1c1k6> Unless Baraka signed some kind of contract not to write psychotic poems once he became NY poet laureate, the governor's request that he resign is contemptible. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Sep 29 15:22:47 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 15:22:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In defense of indispensable Auden References: <154.143ecc34.2ab8f864@aol.com> Message-ID: <01ba01c267ed$98bf9e40$23b5fea9@j1c1k6> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 5:28 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] In defense of indispensable Auden > http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/?020923crat_atlarge > Further evidence, if anyone needed it, why the New Yorker is dispensable. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 29 19:01:57 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 19:01:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poet: Evans Message-ID: <23.250a3c9c.2ac8e065@aol.com> In a message dated 9/29/02 1:57:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > FROM AN OFFSHORE ISLAND > (September Gale) > > Hear now the ocean trouncing off this island, > The under-roar of wind down unfenced sea, > And through chance flaws, like dim light down a tunnel, > The bell buoy spent with distance. > > Orion's chill, washed, subterranean glitter > Wheels up from under, and great Rigel blazes > Between tossed oak boughs that the gale of autumn > Tears at, lifts, lets fall. > > Old ocean's hoarse and implicated roaring > Brings me up sitting at the dead of night, > Its pent-in mouthless fury calling back > The wild first of creation, > > The rage, the might, the rampage. > How shall I > Up from this anchored rock not make answer, > I with my bones of rock-dust hardly knitted > And my blood still salt from the sea? > > ---Abbie Huston Evans, from *Fact of Crystal*, 1961 > ______ David, She's a new name/poet to me. This one marks her as a Jeffers of the Atlantic coast...but that's on the evidence of one poem. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Sun Sep 29 19:14:33 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 19:14:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Shearsman 52 Message-ID: <32.2db6e0c8.2ac8e359@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 12:44:44 +0100 From: Tony Frazer Subject: Shearsman 52 Shearsman 52 is published Monday 30 September, containing poetry by =20 Michael Ayres, Ian Davidson, Peter Larkin, John Muckle, Steven Taylor =20= and Craig Watson. Contributor copies go out Monday morning. =A32.50 per issue, =A37 per 4-issue subscription. Number 52 will be available in its online form in late October, while =20= the new online Gallery series will begin in mid-October. I'll announce =20= to the list when it's ready. Before anyone mentions it, I'm well aware that the contents of 52 are =20= all-male in provenance. I'm receiving very few submissions from the =20 female half of the poetic universe, and most of those are sub-Bloodaxe =20= in style. So, ladies, please accept this as an invitation to send work =20= in. My apologies if you receive this message twice. Tony Frazer ---------------------------------------------------------------- Shearsman Books 58 Velwell Road, Exeter EX4 4LD, England. editor at shearsman.com http://www.shearsman.com/ From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 29 20:15:58 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 17:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Composing Styles (was Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins) In-Reply-To: <001001c267c3$d6ec76e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20020930001558.10786.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Tad, Sometimes I work both ways. I love the Hugo work you refer to, The Triggering Town, and I agree with most of what he says--though he has a bizarre anger and prejudice agains the semicolon that I don't quite get. I like to look for images and words to go with my ideas. But, I've certainly started wtih an idea--i.e. "I will write about this or that"--and wound up in a completely different place. That place is usually the place I need to be as a writer, not the place I wanted to be. Thanks for your remarks, by the way. They got me thinking about my composing process--something I urge my composition students to do but something I don't do often enough myself. Jeff Newberry theoldmole wrote: Jeff -- there's no one way to write...When you start with an idea, do look for words that illustrate your idea? Or do you then use words to lead you into possibilities you couldn't have imagined when you started? SITUATIONS pub date August 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins Tad, I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas later. However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about. I needed ideas first, and then I began to write more. As Mark Jarman once commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than themselves." However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame. I'm just wondering about you other guys out there. How do you start? Jeff Newberry theoldmole wrote: Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come from? What are the options? You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it (not an approach I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and follow them to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in between. Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sondheim at panix.com Sun Sep 29 20:36:31 2002 From: sondheim at panix.com (Alan Sondheim) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:36:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] It's True Message-ID: It's True Around September 10 a yearf ago, Azure and I were sitting in our Miami apartment. The phone rang. It was a call forwarded from New York. I said, Hi, who is it. Shlomo, the voice said. I don't know any Shlomo, I said. It doesn't matter, he said. Get out of the World Trade Center, he said. I'm not in the World Trade Center, I said, I'm in Miami. All the Jews are in Miami, he said, they all got out the World Trade Center. What are you talking about, I said. He said, look, I'm Israeli, I got another 3999 calls to make. What's the occasion, I said. They're doing it to the buildings, he said. Who's they, I asked naturally. I was really curious. Bush and us, he said. We're blaming it on Laden, he said. How will this affect the conspiracy, I said. Which one, he said, the International Zionist Conspiracy or The Pigs of Zion. I don't know, I said, the usual group, I've been following the Protocols of Zion for two decades now. I want to do everything I can. I think of the energy you've had to call all 4000 Israelis who were going to the WTC - even looking up their addresses must have taken an hour or two. You put us to shame, I said. I'll do anything you want, I said. You should, he said. Not enough of our people really want to help. Can I put you down on the list? I said I'm not sure I wanted to be part of a list that wanted me. For the International Jewish Monetary Fund Propaganda Arm, he said. Of course, I said, anything for our the Jews. You know we all support Israel in absolutely everything it does. Even blowing up the WTC? Of course, I replied. I'd been joking with him; I knew about the fake Arab names all along. Later, I called Frankie and passed on the information. You'd be amazed how many Jews we got out of there. We've got to live to fight another day. There are so many Christian children to be caught for Purim and Passover. We don't have any time to lose. Hymie Sondheim From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Sep 29 20:46:03 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:46:03 -0400 Subject: Composing Styles (was Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins) In-Reply-To: <20020930001558.10786.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just for the record, my guess is that in some thirty-odd years of writing poems I've started by thinking "I will write about this or that"--oh, maybe two or three times. I start with words, or an image, or a rhythm, or some combo of these. I don't, 99% of the time, look for something to write "about." Hal "The bacon too carries on its modest love affair." --Tony Towle Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard =================== But, I've certainly started wtih an idea--i.e. "I will write about this or that"--and wound up in a completely different place. That place is usually the place I need to be as a writer, not the place I wanted to be. Thanks for your remarks, by the way. They got me thinking about my composing process--something I urge my composition students to do but something I don't do often enough myself. Jeff Newberry From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Sep 29 20:53:11 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 19:53:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poet: Evans Message-ID: <200209300052.g8U0q2MB001119@mx2.mx.voyager.net> Abbie Huston Evans is usually considered, if at all, as a sort of regionalist (from Maine) and is also that dreaded thing, a nature poet. Yes, lots of stones, sea cliffs, and wind in her poems. I don't make large claims for her work, but it certainly deserves to be remembered alongside Teasdale, Millay, and other of her more famous contemporaries. The only Evans book I own is *Fact of Crystal*, from 1961. There's a collected edition from U Pittsburgh in 1970, but that seems to be out of print. She lived until 1983, dying at age 102. Here's the only other poem I could find online: The Stone-Wall Obliterated faces Look up from the stones When noon inks in the shadows. Life is in these drones. Nothing else created Has such secret eyes; Dim mouths set as these are Make no cries. Dwellers underground Dragged up to the air Lie out and plot together Against alien glare, Back to darkness sinking At a pace too slow For man's eyes to mark, less Swift than shells grow. Inhabitants of darkness, Dragged up to the light, Bend their graven faces Back to night. Nothing from without Can break their calm. --The warm snout of a rock Nuzzles my palm. Abbie Huston Evans ________________________ A handful more of her lyrics may be found in the Library of America anthology of 20th C. poetry. She's in volume 1 (somewhat surprisingly, she was older than Williams, Pound, Eliot, Moore). ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= >David, >She's a new name/poet to me. This one marks her as a Jeffers >of the Atlantic coast...but that's on the evidence of one poem. >Finnegan From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Sep 29 22:06:31 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 22:06:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] It's True Message-ID: <11f.17684966.2ac90ba7@cs.com> In a message dated 9/29/2002 7:37:46 PM Central Daylight Time, sondheim at panix.com writes: > > > > It's True > > > Around September 10 a yearf ago, Azure and I were sitting in our Miami > apartment. The phone rang. It was a call forwarded from New York. > > I said, Hi, who is it. Shlomo, the voice said. I don't know any Shlomo, > I said. It doesn't matter, he said. Get out of the World Trade Center, he > said. I'm not in the World Trade Center, I said, I'm in Miami. > > All the Jews are in Miami, he said, they all got out the World Trade > Center. What are you talking about, I said. > > He said, look, I'm Israeli, I got another 3999 calls to make. What's the > occasion, I said. They're doing it to the buildings, he said. Who's they, > I asked naturally. I was really curious. > > Bush and us, he said. We're blaming it on Laden, he said. How will this > affect the conspiracy, I said. Which one, he said, the International > Zionist Conspiracy or The Pigs of Zion. I don't know, I said, the usual > group, I've been following the Protocols of Zion for two decades now. > I want to do everything I can. I think of the energy you've had to call > all 4000 Israelis who were going to the WTC - even looking up their > addresses must have taken an hour or two. You put us to shame, I said. > I'll do anything you want, I said. > > You should, he said. Not enough of our people really want to help. Can I > put you down on the list? I said I'm not sure I wanted to be part of a > list that wanted me. For the International Jewish Monetary Fund Propaganda > Arm, he said. Of course, I said, anything for our the Jews. You know we > all support Israel in absolutely everything it does. Even blowing up the > WTC? Of course, I replied. I'd been joking with him; I knew about the fake > Arab names all along. > > Later, I called Frankie and passed on the information. You'd be amazed how > many Jews we got out of there. We've got to live to fight another day. > There are so many Christian children to be caught for Purim and Passover. > We don't have any time to lose. > > > Hymie Sondheim I still like "Send in the Clowns" better. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Sun Sep 29 22:40:49 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 21:40:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Other Poets Laureate In-Reply-To: <200209282035.g8SKZaFp000894@mx5.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: on 9/28/02 3:36 PM, David Graham at grahamd at ripon.edu wrote: > In different laureate news, New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Baraka has been > asked by the governor to resign. Read the story at Poetry Daily, or at this > link: > > http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/ap/sep02/ap-new-jersey-poet092802.asp > > And here's the poem that caused the ruckus. The charge, I take it, is > anti-semitism. > > http://diversity.uoregon.edu/SomebodyBlewUpAmerica.htm > ======================================== > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ======================================= > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Just checked out the poem. The following lines by Baraka must be the ones that did the trick: Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers To stay home that day Why did Sharon stay away? From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Sun Sep 29 22:54:17 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 21:54:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] It's True In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 9/29/02 7:36 PM, Alan Sondheim at sondheim at panix.com wrote: > > > > It's True > > > Around September 10 a yearf ago, Azure and I were sitting in our Miami > apartment. The phone rang. It was a call forwarded from New York. > > I said, Hi, who is it. Shlomo, the voice said. I don't know any Shlomo, > I said. It doesn't matter, he said. Get out of the World Trade Center, he > said. I'm not in the World Trade Center, I said, I'm in Miami. > > All the Jews are in Miami, he said, they all got out the World Trade > Center. What are you talking about, I said. > > He said, look, I'm Israeli, I got another 3999 calls to make. What's the > occasion, I said. They're doing it to the buildings, he said. Who's they, > I asked naturally. I was really curious. > > Bush and us, he said. We're blaming it on Laden, he said. How will this > affect the conspiracy, I said. Which one, he said, the International > Zionist Conspiracy or The Pigs of Zion. I don't know, I said, the usual > group, I've been following the Protocols of Zion for two decades now. > I want to do everything I can. I think of the energy you've had to call > all 4000 Israelis who were going to the WTC - even looking up their > addresses must have taken an hour or two. You put us to shame, I said. > I'll do anything you want, I said. > > You should, he said. Not enough of our people really want to help. Can I > put you down on the list? I said I'm not sure I wanted to be part of a > list that wanted me. For the International Jewish Monetary Fund Propaganda > Arm, he said. Of course, I said, anything for our the Jews. You know we > all support Israel in absolutely everything it does. Even blowing up the > WTC? Of course, I replied. I'd been joking with him; I knew about the fake > Arab names all along. > > Later, I called Frankie and passed on the information. You'd be amazed how > many Jews we got out of there. We've got to live to fight another day. > There are so many Christian children to be caught for Purim and Passover. > We don't have any time to lose. > > > Hymie Sondheim > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > A stand-up comedy masterpiece. Paul Lake From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Sep 30 00:05:54 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 12:05:54 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Getting started References: <20020929004229.2324.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00be01c26836$ae7a5290$46864cca@JROSS2> Depends, really. Mostly I'm mulling about some topic (sometimes this goes on for years), start to get phrases, images -- usually slowly, but frequently flashes -- which I write down ... and wait ... or not, depending on urgency. Often enough I have several incomplete pieces that "suddenly" merge into something I'm interested enough in to work through. If I wake at 3 am with an impulse to write, I always do -- the inner critic stays asleep long enough to get the first draft down. Sometimes I'm researching something and get a trigger. Sometimes I'm reading someone else's work (or listening to them at a reading) and start scribbling. Sometimes -- actually, rather more than sometimes -- it's a dream that needs interpreting. Often enough there's nothing for weeks. I have a friend who doesn't believe in lying fallow. He gets out there and finds stimulation through the library and happenstance of encounter with texts. It works for him, but I've tried it, and it bores me rigid. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] language translater and Collins Tad, I tried this approach for a long time--words first, ideas later. However, what I discovered is that I had nothing to write about. I needed ideas first, and then I began to write more. As Mark Jarman once commented, "I want my poems to be about something other than themselves." However, I do agree with you--so, this isn't a flame. I'm just wondering about you other guys out there. How do you start? Jeff Newberry theoldmole wrote: Good Lord, Marcus, where do you want poems to come from? What are the options? You either have an idea and try to find words to fit it (not an approach I'd recommend) or you start with words, images, sounds, and follow them to see if they lead anywhere. Or something in between. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Sep 30 01:07:31 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:07:31 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily & Google References: Message-ID: <001301c2683f$4c8de070$46864cca@JROSS2> Well, durh! (mind obviously off in the Bahamas with toy boy) Of course you were! Excuse me while I have a cold shower and WAKE UP!! Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 8:32 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily & Google > > My point--exactly, Zan. > > Hal > > { Mind you, we're not living in Puerto Rico ... but then, isn't asking people > { on the list what they find the equivalent of going to the nearest cantina? > { > { Zan > { > { ----- Original Message ----- > { From: "Halvard Johnson" > { To: > { Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 7:45 PM > { Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily & Google > { > { > { > Not complaining, mind you, but the fact that some people ask the > { > list what other's find--almost instantly, I'm sure via Google--reminds > { > me of my four years living in the mountains of Puerto Rico, where > { > (I learned) no proper PR driver would ever consult a map or even > { > carry one in his (usually his) car. Maps, I was told, were anti-social. > { > The proper way to get driving instructions was to pull one's car off > { > (or almost off) the road, stroll along to the nearest cantina (hardly > { > ever more than five minutes away), throw back a *copa* or two > { > and then, in the most off-handed way possible, indicate what > { > info was needed. > { > > { > Moral: Google is an anti-social institution. > { > > { > Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." > { > --Robert Ashley > { > > { > Halvard Johnson > { > =============== > { > email: halvard at earthlink.net > { > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > { > > { > > { > { >There was an article about them on MobyLive.com awhile back. . . > { Does anyone > { > { >have the exact URL for the archived article? > { > { > > { > { > { > { Well, I didn't, but now I do, courtesy of Google: > { > { > { > { http://www.mobylives.com/PD_vs_VD.html > { > { > { > { Thanks for the tip, Chryss. > { > { > { > { > { > { ======================================== > { > { David Graham > { > { Professor of English, Ripon College > { > { grahamd at ripon.edu > { > { Home Page: > { > { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > { > { Poetry Library: > { > { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > { > { > { > { "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > { > { undergraduate education." > { > { Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > { > { ======================================= > { > { > { > { _______________________________________________ > { > { New-Poetry mailing list > { > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > { > > { > _______________________________________________ > { > New-Poetry mailing list > { > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > { > { _______________________________________________ > { New-Poetry mailing list > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > { > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu Sun Sep 29 20:27:53 2002 From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie) Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 19:27:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets Message-ID: >From Michael Karl (Ritchie): I would like to remind all of you of Richard Wilbur, whose poetry and translations should be anything but "minor." For example: A Fable Securely sunning in a forest glade, A mild, well-meaning snake Approved the adaptations he had made For safety's sake. He liked the skin he had -- Its mottled camouflage, its look of mail, And was content that he had thought to add A rattling tail. The tail was not for drumming up a fight; No, nothing of the sort. And he would only use his poisoned bite As a last resort. A peasant now drew near, Collecting wood; the snake, observing this, Expressed concern by uttering a clear But civil hiss. The simple churl, his nerves at once unstrung, Mistook the other's tone And dashed his brains out with a deftly-flung Pre-emptive stone. "Moral" Security, alas, can give A threatening impression; Too much defense-initiative Can prompt aggression. Richard Wilbur, "Selected Poems," pg. 33. From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Sep 30 08:36:39 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 08:36:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Charles Henri Ford Message-ID: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- September 30, 2002 Charles Henri Ford, 94, Prolific Poet, Artist and Editor, Is Dead By ROBERTA SMITH Charles Henri Ford, a poet, editor, novelist, artist and legendary cultural catalyst whose career spanned much of 20th-century modernism, died on Friday in Manhattan. He was 94 and lived in Manhattan and had a house in Katmandu. Mr. Ford, who also had homes in Paris and on Crete for many years, was peripatetic, precocious, charismatic, multitalented and very productive. He said he was inspired by the multimedia career of Jean Cocteau and by Cocteau's description of himself as a poet in everything he does. Mr. Ford was considered America's first Surrealist poet and, by some, a precursor of the New York School. His first poem appeared in The New Yorker while he was still a teenager; he eventually published 16 books of poetry. But he was also a co-writer, with his lifelong friend the writer and film critic Parker Tyler, of "The Young and Evil" (Paris, 1933), which many consider to be the first gay novel. The book, based on the author's adventures in Greenwich Village bohemia, was banned in the United States until the 1960's. His most recent book is "Water From a Bucket; A Diary, 1948-1957" (Turtle Point Press, 2001), with an introduction by the writer Lynne Tillman. Mr. Ford also made paintings, drawing, collages and especially photographs, which he starting taking in the 1930's and first exhibited in Paris in 1954, as well as a single film, "Johnny Minotaur," whose premiere was in 1973. His photographs were shown most recently at the Leslie Tonkonow Gallery in Chelsea in 1997. In 1999 the Ubu Gallery in Manhattan organized a revelatory exhibition of his so-called Prose Poems from the mid-1960's ? large, colorful word-strewn collages that combined elements of Concrete poetry and Pop Art and presaged image-text artists like Barbara Kruger. But Mr. Ford was perhaps best known as the editor of two influential magazines. One was the little magazine Blues: A Magazine of New Rhythms, which he founded in 1929 while still living in Columbus, Miss., under his parents' roof. Its eight issues published the work of William Carlos Williams, Gertrude Stein, Edward Roditi and, for the first time, Paul Bowles and Erskine Caldwell. The other was View, the premier art and literature magazine of the 1940's, whose Surrealist and figurative focus made it the natural counterweight to the Abstract Expressionists being championed by Clement Greenberg in The Partisan Review and The Nation. The simplest summation of Mr. Ford's life and work may be that he did exactly what he wanted, and seemingly knew everyone. "Out of the Labyrinth," a 1991 collection of his poems, is dedicated to 22 mostly familiar names. His friendships reached from Natalie Barney and Man Ray to Robert Mapplethorpe and Patti Smith. They included Djuna Barnes, whose novel, "Nightwood," he typed while they were staying with Bowles in Tangiers in 1932; and Andy Warhol, whom he introduced to underground film. In addition, there was the Russian ?migr? artist Pavel Tchelitchew, who was Mr. Ford's companion from 1933 until Tchelitchew's death in 1957. Mr. Ford's preferred birth dates varied between 1909 and 1913. In fact, he was born Charles Henry Ford in 1908, in the Hazlehurst Hotel in Hazlehurst, Miss. (He later changed the spelling of his middle name because he disliked being asked if he was related to the automobile magnate.) His family owned hotels in Columbus, Miss., Fulton, Ky., Nacogdoches, Tex., and Memphis, and he spent much of his childhood moving among them with his parents and his younger sister, the actress Ruth Ford, who is his only survivor. A Baptist, he was educated primarily in Catholic boarding schools, claiming to have been expelled from most of them. His editorial activities began in grammar school, where he produced a typewritten broadside called The Brass Monkey. Stanley Braithwaite's anthology of magazine verse and Erza Pound's little magazine The Exile inspired him to start Blues, which led to correspondences with Pound, Stein, William Faulkner and Tyler, whom he joined in New York in 1930. There he met Barnes, whom he followed to Paris in 1931, where he met Tchelitchew in 1932. Returning to the United States in 1939, Mr. Ford and Tchelitchew became part of a circle that included Virgil Thompson, George Balanchine, Paul Cadmus, George Platt Lynes, Monroe Wheeler and Lincoln Kirstein. In 1940, Mr. Ford teamed with Tyler again to start View, which became known for its visual ?clat, eclectic mix of writers and emphasis on Surrealism and Neo-Romanticism, especially Tchelitchew's. Taking full advantage of the European Surrealists sitting out World War II in New York, View had stunning covers designed by Max Ernst, Andr? Masson, Man Ray and Yves Tanguy, as well as Georgia O'Keeffe, Isamu Noguchi and Alexander Calder. It published the first English translations of Albert Camus and Jean Genet and the first monograph devoted to Marcel Duchamp. During the final decades of Mr. Ford's life, his companion and chief collaborator was Indra Tamang, an artist whom he met in Katmandu in 1972. During the last decade, he wrote haiku and made collages every day. An exhibition titled "Alive and Kicking: the Collages of Charles Henri Ford" will open late next month at the Scene Gallery on Rivington Street on the Lower East Side; its organizers have no plans to change the title. Among his unpublished works are two early novels, several journals and a memoir of his youth titled "I Will Become What I Am," a phrase that reflects his early determination to be famous. ============= Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Sep 30 09:26:19 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:26:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Charles Henri Ford Message-ID: <89.1eb3ae7b.2ac9aafb@cs.com> In a message dated 9/30/2002 7:38:44 AM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > September 30, 2002 > Charles Henri Ford, 94, Prolific Poet, Artist and Editor, Is Dead > By ROBERTA SMITH > > > Charles Henri Ford, a poet, editor, novelist, artist and legendary cultural > catalyst whose career spanned much of 20th-century > modernism, died on Friday in Manhattan. He was 94 and lived in Manhattan > and had a house in Katmandu. What a fascinating life! He was in that famous Gotham Book Mart photo of poets, but I can't recall ever having seen any of his poetry. Will someone post? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Mon Sep 30 10:34:50 2002 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (Michael Magee) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Cabri on Baraka In-Reply-To: <01a101c267ec$04b97140$23b5fea9@j1c1k6> from "Bob Grumman" at Sep 29, 2002 03:11:30 pm Message-ID: <200209301434.g8UEYoUP020598@dept.english.upenn.edu> Hi all, Louis Cabri gave me permission to forward these two posts of his from another listserv on Barka's controversial poem. He's basically in line with my own earlier comments but his explication is more detailed and hence more useful. -Mike. From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Mon Sep 30 10:58:05 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:58:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cabri on Baraka In-Reply-To: <200209301434.g8UEYoUP020598@dept.english.upenn.edu> References: <01a101c267ec$04b97140$23b5fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020930105323.00a955f0@postoffice.brown.edu> >One can read the end of >the >poem as reflexively aware of its own ultimate rhetorical futility; the >last >line is "Whoooo and Whooooooooooooooooooooo!" which sounds like a pathetic >version of an owl (wisdom etc) to me. It's that variation and ambiguity of >address that makes the poem not simply a 2D diatribe but rather itself >caught in its own conspiratorial web. I don't think so. The owl is being valorized as the one who "knows the Devil" (knows who the devil is) all through the night. >But that certainty is lacking in Baraka's poem, in my view. I >think that's the timely sociohistorical point (it's not a novel idea) the >poem is making, that the question of who is the terrorist, and why, is >open >ended and uncertain. I don't think so. Baraka is equating White Imperialist USA with the Devil, as the really evil behind the evils. The ranting tone is the vehicle. - Henry From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Sep 30 10:51:21 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:51:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka Message-ID: I saw on CNN this morning that Baraka has refused to resign from his post of NJ laureate. Paul Lake From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Mon Sep 30 11:02:56 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:02:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cabri on Baraka In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020930105323.00a955f0@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <200209301434.g8UEYoUP020598@dept.english.upenn.edu> <01a101c267ec$04b97140$23b5fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020930100129.00b2a5a0@mail.ilstu.edu> At 10:58 AM 9/30/2002 -0400, you wrote: >>One can read the end of >>the >>poem as reflexively aware of its own ultimate rhetorical futility; the >>last >>line is "Whoooo and Whooooooooooooooooooooo!" which sounds like a pathetic >>version of an owl (wisdom etc) to me. It's that variation and ambiguity of >>address that makes the poem not simply a 2D diatribe but rather itself >>caught in its own conspiratorial web. "Whooooooooooo!" to me sounds like a siren wail or something, rather than a giant owl of Minerva on helium. From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Mon Sep 30 11:04:48 2002 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (Michael Magee) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Amiri Baraka, "The Turncoat" In-Reply-To: <01a101c267ec$04b97140$23b5fea9@j1c1k6> from "Bob Grumman" at Sep 29, 2002 03:11:30 pm Message-ID: <200209301504.g8UF4mjG023509@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to Bob Grumman: > > I'd call this an okay poem. LeRoi was a pretty fair second-line poet at > times. Has Baraka written any poems even as good as the above? Has he even > written any poetry (as opposed to what I call advocature)? > > --Bob G. Bob, if your question here is sincere (as opposed to merely rhetorical) well then, okay. But otherwise you're just being silly. Anyone armed with even the most straightforward definition of what a poem is, who has taken the time to read Baraka's poems of the last 30 years, would have to admit out of hand that of course they are poems. Of course there are instances in which he blurs the lines as many great poets have before him. The charge "that's not a poem" has been levied against more poets than we can name, Blake, Wordsworth, Whitman etc etc, by more obtuse, reactionary critics than we could ever remember should there be a reason to remember. As for the charge that "LeRoi" "was a pretty fair second-line poet" -- I don't know which is more worthy of criticism: the confidence with which you seem to regard your own taste (did Eliot, when he died, leave you in charge of deciding 1st and 2nd tier? I must have missed the meeting), or the very discourse of poetic tiers, which helps in the assemblage of $50 anthologies but otherwise strikes me as quite useless. For what it's worth, Baraka's The Dead Lecturer (1964) is an outstanding book of poems which, though it is quite political, would also pay off the mouldiest new critical close reader. Likewise, having changed his name to Baraka, he wrote what I consider to be some of the best poems of the past 30 years - "Three Modes of History and Culture" and "AM/TRAK" for example. "Three Modes" though it includes a heavy dose of political venom, ends with a startlingly autobiographical admission: I think about a time when I will be relaxed. When flames and non-specific passion wear themselves away. And my eyes and hands and mind can turn and soften, and my songs will be softer and lightly weight the air. Anyone who really wants to deal with Baraka as a complex writer rather than as a straw man should, after reading the poems check out what critics such as Nate Mackey and Aldon Nielsen, to name just two, have to say about him in their excellent books DISCREPANT ENGAGEMENT and BLACK CHANT. He is, like Pound, a poet one can disagree with vehemently and still find invaluable. -m. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Sep 30 12:10:28 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:10:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka Message-ID: So much for irony or subtlety. ???Mr. Baraka told the New York Times that he has no intention of stepping aside, adding that Jews were not the only ones who had advance knowledge of the attack. ?????"Obviously they knew about it, like Bush knew about [it]," he said. From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Sep 30 12:33:14 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:33:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Baraka Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F21@mail.ripon.edu> Here's a somewhat fuller quote from the Times story concerning Baraka's explanation of his poem's intent: ---------- Reading the Internet convinced him that Israel knew about Sept. 11 beforehand. "Obviously they knew about it, like Bush knew about it," he said. Espousing a theory popular in parts of the Muslim world, he said the White House let it happen to get "carte blanche" to have its way with Afghanistan, Iraq, the rest of the Middle East. President Bush knew in advance? "Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely." And he added: "So did the Russians, so did the Germans. Why do you think investors sold their stock in United and American Airlines the month before?" ----------- Full story was in the Times yesterday, linkable from Poetry Daily. Appalling stuff, yes. Perhaps most disturbing is that phrase "reading the Internet convinced him. . .". Reading the Internet has convinced *me* I can lose weight while I sleep. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > So much for irony or subtlety. > > > Mr. Baraka told the New York Times that he has no intention of stepping > aside, adding that Jews were not the only ones who had advance knowledge > of > the attack. > "Obviously they knew about it, like Bush knew about [it]," he said. > > From mandolin at mac.com Mon Sep 30 13:11:49 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Another view of Baraka Message-ID: <3520658.1033405909061.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Michael Magee wrote: > >Anyone who really wants to deal with Baraka as a complex writer rather >than as a straw man should, after reading the poems check out what critics >such as Nate Mackey and Aldon Nielsen, to name just two, have to say about >him in their excellent books DISCREPANT ENGAGEMENT and BLACK CHANT. He >is, like Pound, a poet one can disagree with vehemently and still find >invaluable. For a very different view see The New Republic's piece on Baraka: http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020429&s=driver042902&c=1 An quote fromn that piece which seems appropriate:. "Hysteria tricked out as analysis has long been a central element of his written work." From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Mon Sep 30 15:28:59 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:28:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] It's True In-Reply-To: <11f.17684966.2ac90ba7@cs.com> References: <11f.17684966.2ac90ba7@cs.com> Message-ID: I thought this was "Send in the Clowns". ellen s. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Sep 30 14:28:45 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:28:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Charles Henri Ford In-Reply-To: <89.1eb3ae7b.2ac9aafb@cs.com> Message-ID: Here's a link, Sam. http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/ford/ford.htm Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 9:26 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RIP Charles Henri Ford In a message dated 9/30/2002 7:38:44 AM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: September 30, 2002 Charles Henri Ford, 94, Prolific Poet, Artist and Editor, Is Dead By ROBERTA SMITH Charles Henri Ford, a poet, editor, novelist, artist and legendary cultural catalyst whose career spanned much of 20th-century modernism, died on Friday in Manhattan. He was 94 and lived in Manhattan and had a house in Katmandu. What a fascinating life! He was in that famous Gotham Book Mart photo of poets, but I can't recall ever having seen any of his poetry. Will someone post? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Sep 30 15:30:30 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 15:30:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Sentence: A Journal of Prose Poetics Message-ID: <39.2daa4da4.2aca0056@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 16:25:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Clements Subject: Sentence: A Journal of Prose Poetics The premier issue of Sentence: A Journal of Prose Poetics is scheduled to appear in Fall, 2003. We are proud to announce that our board of Contributing Editors includes Maxine Chernoff, Russell Edson, Michel Delville, and Peter Johnson. The objectives of Sentence are: 1. To continue the tradition established by Peter Johnson?s The Prose Poem: an International Journal (dormant) of publishing excellent prose poems 2. To publish reviews and essays (personal, critical, experimental, etc.) on the prose poem, prose poets, and the poetics of the prose poem 3. To continue the discussion about the distinction between the prose poem and ?poet?s prose? (why is this distinction useful? are there other distinctions to be made?) 4. To explore the gray areas around the prose poem, especially in work that exists on the boundary between the prose poem and free verse on one hand and between the prose poem and the essay on the other 5. To publish work that extends conceptions of what the ?prose poem? is or can be We will be reading for the first issue through May 1, 2003. Please send submissions to Sentence, c/o Firewheel Editions, PO Box 793677, Dallas, TX 75379. Please direct queries to editor at firewheel-editions.org. Electronic submissions are acceptable at the addresses above by email, on diskette, or on CD in .pdf format or in a text-only file. Please do not copy submissions into the body of an email message. Submissions in other file formats will not be read. Diskettes must be in PC format until further notice. We recognize that subscribers to the POETICS list are doing important and exciting work in these areas, and we look forward to sharing our pages and our interests with you. Again, please direct any questions to editor at firewheel-editions.org. Sincerely, Brian Clements, Editor From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Sep 30 15:45:10 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 12:45:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sentence: A Journal of Prose Poetics References: <39.2daa4da4.2aca0056@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D98A9C6.461576A@earthlink.net> What nice news! I've missed "The Prose Poem." - Jim C. JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 16:25:29 -0500 > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Sender: UB Poetics discussion group > From: Clements > Subject: Sentence: A Journal of Prose Poetics > > The premier issue of Sentence: A Journal of Prose Poetics is scheduled to > appear in Fall, 2003. We are proud to announce that our board of > Contributing Editors includes Maxine Chernoff, Russell Edson, Michel > Delville, and Peter Johnson. > > The objectives of Sentence are: > > 1. To continue the tradition established by Peter Johnson???s The Prose Poem: > an International Journal (dormant) of publishing excellent prose poems > 2. To publish reviews and essays (personal, critical, experimental, etc.) on > the prose poem, prose poets, and the poetics of the prose poem > 3. To continue the discussion about the distinction between the prose poem > and ???poet???s prose??* (why is this distinction useful? are there other > distinctions to be made?) > 4. To explore the gray areas around the prose poem, especially in work that > exists on the boundary between the prose poem and free verse on one hand and > between the prose poem and the essay on the other > 5. To publish work that extends conceptions of what the ???prose poem??* is or > can be > > We will be reading for the first issue through May 1, 2003. Please send > submissions to Sentence, c/o Firewheel Editions, PO Box 793677, Dallas, TX > 75379. Please direct queries to editor at firewheel-editions.org. > > Electronic submissions are acceptable at the addresses above by email, on > diskette, or on CD in .pdf format or in a text-only file. Please do not copy > submissions into the body of an email message. Submissions in other file > formats will not be read. Diskettes must be in PC format until further > notice. > > We recognize that subscribers to the POETICS list are doing important and > exciting work in these areas, and we look forward to sharing our pages and > our interests with you. Again, please direct any questions to > editor at firewheel-editions.org. > > Sincerely, > Brian Clements, Editor > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jstolzenberg at snet.net Mon Sep 30 16:28:38 2002 From: jstolzenberg at snet.net (jstolzenberg) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:28:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: neglected poets postings, Charles Henri Ford Message-ID: <005a01c268bf$f56d04c0$553ffea9@y9fru> Thanks to Finnegan for bringing the topic up a and to all for your posting of neglected poets. Sorry to hear of Charles Henri Ford's death, grateful to find out he lived. Thanks Hal. A site for info, writings, art by him http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/ford/flag.htm Google search reveals more. Peace. Jonathan From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Sep 30 17:45:06 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:45:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Dara Wier, "Feral Boy" Message-ID: <3D98C5E3.9515A69A@earthlink.net> Feral Boy The feral boy showed up everywhere We went that day. While we waited For the woman who owns the tobacco Shop to explain to her son why he's Not allowed to sell tobacco products, Too young, the feral boy slipped behind Our backs and up & down the aisles of Every kind of magazine in the world and Was gone. When we talked with the men In the music store about a sound that makes You feel as if the music is happily heading In one direction while the musician is always Dragging it back in some other direction, the Feral boy sobbed a muffled whoa, and shuffled Behind us to the back of the shop, up & down The aisles of every kind of music and was gone. When we stood on the sidewalk next to a burned Wall saying, Looking for a Good Home for a Goldfish, the feral boy tiptoed by, turned a Corner into a single-file alleyway and was gone. When we spoke with the jeweler over where and In what sort of letters we'd have the baby's Name etched on her silvercup, the feral boy Hovered near around us around and around every kind Of precious gem and metal in the world, looked Past our shoulders, took note of the baby's Name and was gone. Later in the sandwich shop While we talked with a neighbor about a recent trip He'd made down Memory Lane, the feral boy Stirred behind our backs and stopped briefly To look into our hearts and was gone. - Dara Wier, _Hat On A Pond_, Verse Press, 2001 "The Living Web": Poets, Writers, & Music http://poetserv.com/livweb/livweb.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From JforJames at aol.com Mon Sep 30 17:55:55 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:55:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Sentence: A Journal of Prose Poetics Message-ID: <25.2e643720.2aca226b@aol.com> In a message dated 9/30/02 3:46:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > What nice news! I've missed "The Prose Poem." > Yes, that was my reaction too. I thought it was a shame when The Prose Poem folded...and I hoped it wouldn't be too long before something similar was founded. Another litmag featuring prose poems, key satch(el), which was run by Gian Lombardo also bit the dust a couple years back. Finnegan From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Sep 30 18:18:16 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 18:18:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Two poems by Charles Henri Ford Message-ID: Somebody's Gone There may be a basement to the Atlantic but there's no top-storey to my mountain of missing you. I must say your deportment took a hunk out of my peach of a heart. I ain't insured against torpedoes! My turpentine tears would fill a drugstore. May I be blindfolded before you come my way again if you've going to leave dry land like an amphibian; I took you for some kind of ambrosial bird with no thought of acoustics. Maybe it's too late to blindfold me ever: I'm just a blotter crisscrossed with the ink of words that remind me of you. Bareheaded aircastle, you were as beautiful as a broom made of flesh and hair. When you first disappeared I couldn't keep up with my breakneck grief, and now I know how grief can run away with the mind, leaving the body desolate as a staircase. The Overturned Lake Blue unsolid tongue, if you could talk, the mountain would supply the brain; but mountains are mummies: the autobus and train, manmade worms, disturb their centuries. Tongue of a deafmute, the lake shudders, inarticulate. You are like the mind of a man, too: surface reflecting the blue day, the life about you seemingly organized, revolving about you, you as a center, but I am concerned in your overthrow: I should like to pick you up, as if you were a woman of water, hold you against the light and see your veins flow with fishes; reveal the animal-flowers that rise nightlike beneath your eyes. Noiseless as memory, blind as fear, lake, I shall make you into a poem, for I would have you unpredictable as the human body: I shall equip you with the strength of a dream, rout you from your blue unconscious bed, overturn your unconcern, as the mind is overturned by memory, the heart by dread. --Charles Henri Ford fr. *The Overturned Lake*, Little Man Press, 1941 in *English and American Surrealist Poetry*, ed. Edward B. Germain, Penguin, 1978 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Sep 30 19:07:28 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 19:07:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Amiri Baraka, "The Turncoat" References: <200209301504.g8UF4mjG023509@dept.english.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <006801c268d6$25fca6c0$9760fea9@j1c1k6> > According to Bob Grumman: > > > > I'd call this an okay poem. LeRoi was a pretty fair second-line poet at > > times. Has Baraka written any poems even as good as the above? Has he even > > written any poetry (as opposed to what I call advocature)? > > > > --Bob G. > > Bob, if your question here is sincere (as opposed to merely rhetorical) > well then, okay. It was both. I've never seen anything by Baraka that wasn't rant, so suspected that might be all he's been doing. On the other hand, I haven't read much by him, so I was sincerely curious whether I was right or not. Certainly the ruckus-rousing "poem" is not a poem, but a political statement. Of course, that's in my taxonomy, not in all taxonomies. >But otherwise you're just being silly. Anyone armed > with even the most straightforward definition of what a poem is, who has > taken the time to read Baraka's poems of the last 30 years, would have to > admit out of hand that of course they are poems. Of course there are > instances in which he blurs the lines as many great poets have before him. > The charge "that's not a poem" has been levied against more poets than we > can name, Blake, Wordsworth, Whitman etc etc, by more obtuse, reactionary > critics than we could ever remember should there be a reason to remember. So what? Some texts called poems are not poems. That some texts that ARE poems are said not to be poems does not change the fact. > As for the charge I wasn't charging him, I was complimenting him. > that "LeRoi" "was a pretty fair second-line poet" -- I don't know which is more worthy of criticism: the confidence with which > you seem to regard your own taste (did Eliot, when he died, leave you in > charge of deciding 1st and 2nd tier? I must have missed the meeting), Why is the confidence with which I regard my own taste (which you correctly imply I think as good as Eliot's) more worthy of criticism than the confidence with which you regard your own (low) judgment of my taste? As for deciding the level of poets' achievements, everyone who reads poetry is in charge of that, and do it, though most are too timid to do so openly. But I will allow that I was writing quickly, so implied rather than stated that it was IN MY OPINION that LeRoi was 2nd-tier. > or > the very discourse of poetic tiers, which helps in the assemblage of $50 > anthologies but otherwise strikes me as quite useless. Right. All poets are equal. > For what it's worth, Baraka's The Dead Lecturer (1964) is an outstanding > book of poems which, though it is quite political, would also pay off the > mouldiest new critical close reader. Likewise, having changed his name to > Baraka, he wrote what I consider to be some of the best poems of the past > 30 years - "Three Modes of History and Culture" and "AM/TRAK" for example. > "Three Modes" though it includes a heavy dose of political venom, ends > with a startlingly autobiographical admission: > > I think about a time when I will be relaxed. > When flames and non-specific passion wear themselves > away. And my eyes and hands and mind can turn > and soften, and my songs will be softer > and lightly weight the air. I'm not impressed with this particular prosy passage but will agree I don't know Baraka's work as a whole well enough properly to assess it. Texts like the NJ poem make it hard for me to believe he can either think or compose at a very high level, however. > Anyone who really wants to deal with Baraka as a complex writer rather > than as a straw man should, after reading the poems check out what critics > such as Nate Mackey and Aldon Nielsen, to name just two, have to say about > him in their excellent books DISCREPANT ENGAGEMENT and BLACK CHANT. He > is, like Pound, a poet one can disagree with vehemently and still find > invaluable. The problem for me is that while I've read Poundian texts as dumb as the NY poem, I haven't yet read anything by Baraka as good as Pound is in his best poetry--and prose. But I know Pound much better than I know Baraka. --Bob G. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From simon at ipfw.edu Mon Sep 30 19:21:51 2002 From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 18:21:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re lit mags folding Message-ID: anyone know why ohio review stopped? lack of funding? end of an era? beth From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Mon Sep 30 19:59:57 2002 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (Michael Magee) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 19:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Amiri Baraka, "The Turncoat" In-Reply-To: <006801c268d6$25fca6c0$9760fea9@j1c1k6> from "Bob Grumman" at Sep 30, 2002 07:07:28 pm Message-ID: <200209302359.g8UNxvMw018582@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to Bob Grumman: > > Why is the confidence with which I regard my own taste (which you correctly > imply I think as good as Eliot's) more worthy of criticism than the > confidence with which you regard your own (low) judgment of my taste? I don't have a low judgement of *your* taste per se but rather of the very notion of taste which simply mystifies the ideologies and desires behind every act of reading. When I myself read a poem, analyze it, discuss it, I try to explain what I think that poem is doing and why I find what it is doing useful, interesting, of value. I'll try to do this with one of Baraka's poems if I can find some time. > As for deciding the level of poets' achievements, everyone who reads poetry > is in charge of that, and do it, though most are too timid to do so openly. > But I will allow that I was writing quickly, so implied rather than stated > that it was IN MY OPINION that LeRoi was 2nd-tier. I don't mind deciding the level of a poets achievements so long as one is, again, up front about what one is looking for in a poem (and for goodness sakes don't say "truth"! :) ). > Right. All poets are equal. No, of course not. Or rather, all poets are equal until a reader makes a good case for their being unequal, based, again, on how a poem operates for that reader or (small or large) community of readers. > > I think about a time when I will be relaxed. > > When flames and non-specific passion wear themselves > > away. And my eyes and hands and mind can turn > > and soften, and my songs will be softer > > and lightly weight the air. > > I'm not impressed with this particular prosy passage The fact that you would toss this aside as "prosy" suggests to me that your not reading carefully enough. If anything, its iambic structure (the first two lines are a fairly even iambic hexameter, the fourth is iambic pentameter with an inverted last foot - and, granted, some possible "variable feet" - , the last is iambic trimeter) makes it too close to the "academic poetry" which was anathema to Baraka when he wrote this poem. But, as I said, I'm sold on it for it's contrast with what is otherwise a very "passionate" poem. More soon, if there's time... -m.