From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Oct 1 10:42:38 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 10:42:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021001103004.00aac240@postoffice.brown.edu> Mike (& maybe Gabriel too), you guys abhor the whole notion of taste in poetry - does your distaste for taste apply universally? I mean, say, with wine or beer? Gonzo Brewski is "useful", for example, if your aim is to get plastered: but if you ask for a mellow Guinness, you must have SOMETHING of a taste for it (since it's more expensive). Taste is simply discrimination, isn't it? And discrimination in poetry must have something to do with being able to hear & respond to what's being done. If you don't hear the subtleties, you can't distinguish one poem from another, one intonation from another, one timbre, tone or coloration from another, one allusion from another, one tradition from another, one imitation from another, one theme from another, one argument from another, etc, etc. Taste is a reader's sensibility, as an active, somewhat unified faculty or ability. But you guys as serious poet-critics wouldn't want to surrender all that, would you? After all, you want to be able to announce now and then what you find "useful". It seems to me that the disdain for taste is just a sophistry. It allows you call anything "good poetry" because actually what's most important to you is not the poem itself, but the yarn you can spin out of it. Henry From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Tue Oct 1 11:01:40 2002 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (Michael Magee) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:01:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021001103004.00aac240@postoffice.brown.edu> from "Henry Gould" at Oct 1, 2002 10:42:38 am Message-ID: <200210011501.g91F1e7G001335@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to Henry Gould: > > It seems to me that the disdain for taste is just a sophistry. It allows > you call anything "good poetry" because actually what's most important to > you is not the poem itself, but the yarn you can spin out of it. > Henry, of course you and I have gone down this road before, many moons ago, so I don't want to belabor - but yes, in a sense you're right here, minus the negative value you put on the formula. To paraphrase my man Robert Frost, good poems make good yarns. What the hell else are they for? We read them, and they encourage us into a more more complex relations with our language, ourselves, our community (world) and hopefully we respond in kind since, as Emerson put it, "the ear and tongue are two organs of one nature." My complaint with "taste" is merely that's it's lazy. "'The Wasteland' is a great poem." What on earth does this mean? Outside of someone's actually reading it and making for herself a yarn or indeed a tapestry? I don't believe that *any* poem can be a great poem actually - I suspect not and, at the moment, I don't think the Baraka poem in question is a great poem. But I reserve the right to change my mind should the circumstances change - e.g. should someone convince me otherwise. I do find the poem worth reading and having a more than cursory look at for the reasons I and Cabri and others have stated. In any event, its value will be determined by the "yarns" it engenders. -m. From pihel_e at pipeline.com Tue Oct 1 11:08:05 2002 From: pihel_e at pipeline.com (Erik Pihel) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:08:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Amiri Baraka, "The Turncoat" In-Reply-To: <006801c268d6$25fca6c0$9760fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <000001c2695c$5b3ac0c0$46d1d23f@aoidos> Baraka is primarily a performance poet. While many of his poems work on the page ("A New Reality is Better than a New Movie," "Black Art"), the power of the work is in the way it's performed. His hands thumping a rhythm on the podium and, above all else, the voice. Silently reading the NJ poem and then, on that basis, comparing Baraka to Yeats, Pound, or some other page poet is comparing apples and oranges. While Yeats and Pound were no slouches in reading their own poems, there is no doubt who would come off as the better poet following a performance by Baraka. Erik Pihel -----Original Message----- Texts like the NJ poem make it hard for me to believe he can either think or compose at a very high level, however. --Bob G. From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Oct 1 11:14:22 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 11:14:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste In-Reply-To: <200210011501.g91F1e7G001335@dept.english.upenn.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021001103004.00aac240@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021001110721.00aa4600@postoffice.brown.edu> Mike writes; > My complaint with "taste" is merely that's >it's lazy. "'The Wasteland' is a great poem." What on earth does this >mean? Got me. But I think tastelessness, not taste, is lazy. Taste is response to beauty and a willingness to prolong and refine that response. Tastelessness is watching the boob tube all the time instead. That's laziness and indifference. And I disagree with you about the yarn business too. Good poems have an intrinsic value, whether or not you can cook up a lot of useful commentary hash about them (to switch metaphors). Henry From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Oct 1 11:39:15 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 10:39:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F28@mail.ripon.edu> To switch threads some, I'd love to see some discussion on the differences between page poetry and oral poetry--yes, I know that the terms & concepts themselves are contested--and how we deal with them as readers (silent and not), teachers, critics, etc. My interest at the moment is largely pedagogical--I'm always trying to find ways of teaching poetry that I love (by Langston Hughes, for example) but that simply doesn't respond very effectively to the newcritical methodology I was trained in. Part of the reason it doesn't respond well, of course, is that it's not page poetry. It requires performance. And I'm looking for ways to teach this material without simply focusing on biographical and social context, and without just reading the stuff aloud and sighing in pleasure. I do do both these things, by the way, but I am also looking for ways to analyze the poems as poems, even when there aren't a lot of tensions, ironies, and such to be uncovered. Ultimately, too, once you agree that there *is* such a thing as oral poetry, different in kind from page poetry, that raises a whole other set of evaluative concerns. How does one distinguish, say, between a *good* Baraka rant and a less good one? Huge topic, I know. Any responses welcome, from anecdote to textual recommendation. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: Erik Pihel > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2002 10:08 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Amiri Baraka, "The > Turncoat" > > Baraka is primarily a performance poet. While many of his poems work on > the page ("A New Reality is Better than a New Movie," "Black Art"), the > power of the work is in the way it's performed. His hands thumping a > rhythm on the podium and, above all else, the voice. Silently reading > the NJ poem and then, on that basis, comparing Baraka to Yeats, Pound, > or some other page poet is comparing apples and oranges. > > While Yeats and Pound were no slouches in reading their own poems, there > is no doubt who would come off as the better poet following a > performance by Baraka. > > Erik Pihel > From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Oct 1 11:36:21 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 10:36:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka Message-ID: I saw poet Liam Rector on O'Reilly on Fox last night defending Baraka. His argument was that Baraka's 9/11 poem was indeed anti-Semitic, but that he should not be forced to resign because of espousing an unpopular or even reprehensible idea. Since I'm a hardcore First Amendment advocate myself, I tend to agree with Rector. Unfortunately, most academics want only their own ideas to be allowed free expression. If another minority were slandered in a poem the way the Jews were in Baraka's, a lot of people would change their minds and demand the poet's head on a platter. Paul Lake From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Oct 1 11:45:38 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 10:45:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021001110721.00aa4600@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <200210011501.g91F1e7G001335@dept.english.upenn.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20021001103004.00aac240@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021001101658.02b80b68@mail.ilstu.edu> Henry you put me parenthetically into your salutation so I was going take a back seat on this, but I wanted to respond to this: <> because (1) you ally taste with beauty, and (2) tastelessness with laziness and indifference. And finally you (3) say that taste is an activity that tries to prolong and refine the response to beauty. 1. Ideals of beauty change. Even a cursory glance at lit history shows this. 2. If (1) is true, then new material will necessarily be seen as tasteless to some degree -- so I can't help but think you believe innovation is lazy. Finally, it's arguable that most of literature has nothing whatsoever to do with beauty. For instance, comedy is not something that trucks with beauty at all (eg, "The comic and the disgusting, we know, share significant points of contact." -- William Ian Miller) -- at least it doesn't deal with it in a way that seeks to "prolong and refine the response" to it. This is one reason why innovative work (eg, Robert Frost [someone you'd like?], Wallace Stevens, WCW, "The Waste Land") is often seen at first to be ugly and upsetting. Tasteless, in other words. Beckett, for one, worked very hard to be tasteless. You're calling Beckett lazy? Gabe From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Oct 1 11:47:43 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste Message-ID: <20021001154744.BAA133D55@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Oct 1 12:10:19 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste Message-ID: <20021001161020.51FE5398C@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue Oct 1 12:17:14 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:17:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F28@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <008101c26966$016b8700$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> David -- I recommend playing some recorded versions of oral poetry, and right up among the best, for my money, is the first (eponymous) album by The Last Poets. Tad SITUATIONS pub date October 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham, David" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:39 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry > To switch threads some, I'd love to see some discussion on the differences > between page poetry and oral poetry--yes, I know that the terms & concepts > themselves are contested--and how we deal with them as readers (silent and > not), teachers, critics, etc. > > My interest at the moment is largely pedagogical--I'm always trying to find > ways of teaching poetry that I love (by Langston Hughes, for example) but > that simply doesn't respond very effectively to the newcritical methodology > I was trained in. > > Part of the reason it doesn't respond well, of course, is that it's not page > poetry. It requires performance. And I'm looking for ways to teach this > material without simply focusing on biographical and social context, and > without just reading the stuff aloud and sighing in pleasure. I do do both > these things, by the way, but I am also looking for ways to analyze the > poems as poems, even when there aren't a lot of tensions, ironies, and such > to be uncovered. > > Ultimately, too, once you agree that there *is* such a thing as oral poetry, > different in kind from page poetry, that raises a whole other set of > evaluative concerns. How does one distinguish, say, between a *good* Baraka > rant and a less good one? > > Huge topic, I know. Any responses welcome, from anecdote to textual > recommendation. > ============================================ > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ============================================ > > > > ---------- > > From: Erik Pihel > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2002 10:08 AM > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Amiri Baraka, "The > > Turncoat" > > > > Baraka is primarily a performance poet. While many of his poems work on > > the page ("A New Reality is Better than a New Movie," "Black Art"), the > > power of the work is in the way it's performed. His hands thumping a > > rhythm on the podium and, above all else, the voice. Silently reading > > the NJ poem and then, on that basis, comparing Baraka to Yeats, Pound, > > or some other page poet is comparing apples and oranges. > > > > While Yeats and Pound were no slouches in reading their own poems, there > > is no doubt who would come off as the better poet following a > > performance by Baraka. > > > > Erik Pihel > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Oct 1 12:19:13 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 09:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka Message-ID: <20021001161913.C6C283C4D@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Cadaly at aol.com Tue Oct 1 12:35:32 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:35:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry Message-ID: <1a1.9af0e04.2acb28d4@aol.com> _Women Who Love to Be Astonished_: really excellent essays, especially Kathleen Crown's on Tracie Morris. Not much has been done on 80's punk / LA performance poetry: Lydia Lunch, Exene, Rollins, a phase of MacAdams, which relates to late 70's NY punk / performance poetry AND to the watts writers workshop (founded by Budd Schulberg), some of which I hope to represent at my new reading series at the UCLA Hammer Museum, first reading Nov. 15. Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Oct 1 12:41:42 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:41:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Amiri Baraka, "The Turncoat" Message-ID: <99.2d4a1411.2acb2a46@cs.com> In a message dated 10/1/2002 10:09:26 AM Central Daylight Time, pihel_e at pipeline.com writes: > > Baraka is primarily a performance poet. While many of his poems work on > the page ("A New Reality is Better than a New Movie," "Black Art"), the > power of the work is in the way it's performed. His hands thumping a > rhythm on the podium and, above all else, the voice. Silently reading > the NJ poem and then, on that basis, comparing Baraka to Yeats, Pound, > or some other page poet is comparing apples and oranges. > One who obviously preaches exclusively to the choir. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Oct 1 12:46:11 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:46:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka Message-ID: In a message dated 10/1/2002 10:44:34 AM Central Daylight Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > Unfortunately, most academics want only their own > ideas to be allowed free expression. If another minority were slandered in > a poem the way the Jews were in Baraka's, a lot of people would change their > minds and demand the poet's head on a platter. > > Paul Lake > > Seems to me that when a poet takes on a public position (especially if he or she is paid for it) that poet is working under public constraints that wouldn't be relevant if he or she were simply writing for the marketplace. If someone is going to take public money to assume the role of spokesperson for community, state, etc., then that poet should exercise enough responsibility in his or her public utterances to avoid the kind of mindless, racist drivel that Baraka has produced here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Oct 1 12:52:27 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:52:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste Message-ID: <78.2d6e2dd3.2acb2ccb@cs.com> My wife and I have been shopping for a new house. Other than the practical concerns of looking for the right kind of space and condition of the house, etc., it's obvious that some people have pretty good taste and some have horrible taste. I mean, what can you say about someone how has not only papered the walls of the utility room with lavender rose wallpaper but has also papered the shelving and even the galvanized duct pipe for the dryer? Our choices here were either to not buy the house or buy it and do a lot of painting. Sorry, but I believe that taste is an important part of literary criticism and that some readers' taste is better than others. My sophomore students, for example, would probably reject any book of contemporary poetry I put in front of them, simply because poetry is not to their "taste." However, if some of them persist in literary studies they can learn to discriminate between bad and good and may become good critical readers themselves. My main problem with much contemporary poetry is that it's so bland as to inspire hardly any reaction at all. And, please, don't bombard me with Cajun-spiced poems! I said "much," not "all." Chef Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chryss at silcom.com Tue Oct 1 13:02:16 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 10:02:16 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste In-Reply-To: <78.2d6e2dd3.2acb2ccb@cs.com> Message-ID: So, did you buy the house? > > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:52:27 EDT > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] question of taste > > My wife and I have been shopping for a new house. Other than the practical > concerns of looking for the right kind of space and condition of the house, > etc., it's obvious that some people have pretty good taste and some have > horrible taste. I mean, what can you say about someone how has not only > papered the walls of the utility room with lavender rose wallpaper but has > also papered the shelving and even the galvanized duct pipe for the dryer? > Our choices here were either to not buy the house or buy it and do a lot of > painting. Sorry, but I believe that taste is an important part of literary > criticism and that some readers' taste is better than others. My sophomore > students, for example, would probably reject any book of contemporary poetry I > put in front of them, simply because poetry is not to their "taste." However, > if some of them persist in literary studies they can learn to discriminate be! > tween bad and good and may become good critical readers themselves. My main > problem with much contemporary poetry is that it's so bland as to inspire > hardly any reaction at all. > > And, please, don't bombard me with Cajun-spiced poems! I said "much," not > "all." > > Chef Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Oct 1 13:08:01 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:08:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste Message-ID: <23.2523fa12.2acb3071@cs.com> In a message dated 10/1/2002 12:04:27 PM Central Daylight Time, chryss at silcom.com writes: > > So, did you buy the house? > >> >> > Closing the tenth, moving the 11th. $135,000, brick, five br, two bath, paneled library, large den with fireplace, big fenced lot with 18x30 concrete pad for boat parking, large kitchen and separate formal dining room, sewing room, new central air and heat, new carpet, new ceramic tile, freshly painted, two car garage, 2700 square feet. What does this tell you about local property values? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chryss at silcom.com Tue Oct 1 13:17:18 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 10:17:18 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste In-Reply-To: <23.2523fa12.2acb3071@cs.com> Message-ID: On 10/1/02 10:08 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > Closing the tenth, moving the 11th. $135,000, brick, five br, two bath, > paneled library, large den with fireplace, big fenced lot with 18x30 concrete > pad for boat parking, large kitchen and separate formal dining room, sewing > room, new central air and heat, new carpet, new ceramic tile, freshly painted, > two car garage, 2700 square feet. What does this tell you about local > property values? Damn. Congratulations. You couldn?t get the concrete boat pad for $135K in Santa Barbara. Your house cost less than my down payment!!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ex2deuce at aol.com Tue Oct 1 13:23:52 2002 From: Ex2deuce at aol.com (Ex2deuce at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:23:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] a matter of tase Message-ID: <190.e385a9d.2acb3428@aol.com> At one time I had tasted a coke acola that had dirt swiming inside of it that had been placed there for a joke. On me. However I loved drinking all of it at first blush until I came upto the dirty part of it. That proves that anybody dosnt always know what your going to get. Is that lazy according to henry, or not Gab? Yes i was lazy not to watch out for it so it got dirt put into it although it tasted good to me and I almost drank the dirt. The comparsion is among 2 seperate thins--coke acola and a poem. The comparison means that a poem is good unless you read it carefully. Then you can find other things in it that you never expected to read it. According to Gab Beckit tried not to taste anything, I feel soory for his wife (even if he even married her). Luv, Billie From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Oct 1 13:27:46 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 13:27:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021001101658.02b80b68@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021001110721.00aa4600@postoffice.brown.edu> <200210011501.g91F1e7G001335@dept.english.upenn.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20021001103004.00aac240@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021001130843.00aae100@postoffice.brown.edu> Gabriel wrote: >1. Ideals of beauty change. Even a cursory glance at lit history shows this. > >2. If (1) is true, then new material will necessarily be seen as tasteless >to some degree -- so I can't help but think you believe innovation is lazy. This is assuming that readers are unable to recognize new forms of beauty. That's a pretty big assumption, Gabriel, which weakens your syllogism. >Finally, it's arguable that most of literature has nothing whatsoever to >do with beauty. For instance, comedy is not something that trucks with >beauty at all (eg, "The comic and the disgusting, we know, share >significant points of contact." -- William Ian Miller) -- at least it >doesn't deal with it in a way that seeks to "prolong and refine the >response" to it. I think it's also arguable that art incorporates the ugly, the comic, the disgusting, and makes it "beautiful" (or perhaps sublime). As for laziness: I think I was lazy & misread Mike Magee's (lazily articulated) statement that "Taste is lazy". I think what he meant to say & what I should have understood him to be saying was that bald expressions of taste, like "Waste Land is a great poem", are lazy, not "taste" itself. (And, by the way, I think tastelessness is only lazy if the person has a choice. Of course, Monday Night Football vs. poetry is no contest.) Well, in response, I would say (first of all) that, of course, it depends on the context. Yes, plain assertions of likes or dislikes are not very persuasive (they are simply assertive). In some critical contexts they would be seen as sub-critical. But I think one can easily imagine someone with a sensibility that is highly responsive to poetry, who is nevertheless pretty inarticulate about WHY they like a poem. And I think that the denigration of readerly taste goes along with the relativizing of aesthetic value (ie. to say a poem is meaningless without some kinds of ulterior "usefulness"): it reinforces quasi-academic poetry subcultures. Basically you are excluded from the club of "useful" poetics if you can't "apply" your poems or readings with some forms of adjunct para-discourse (but heaven forbid that the poems might be "good" in themselves, or "better" than some other poems!!). Henry From simon at ipfw.edu Tue Oct 1 12:36:15 2002 From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 11:36:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry Message-ID: This afternoon, in fact, in my intro class, we're moving from (neo)formalism (just finished "A Note Of Thanks," (W. Prunty)) to incanting/performing incantions by way of "Rune Of The Finland Woman" (M. Hacker). Has anyone heard Marilyn Hacker read/speak/perform "Rune"? beth From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Oct 1 13:38:02 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 12:38:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] a matter of tase In-Reply-To: <190.e385a9d.2acb3428@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021001123113.02bd27a0@mail.ilstu.edu> Agreed, Billie. If you have a coka acola with some dirt in it, then you have a choice to either drink it up or to set it down. But if you don't know theres no dirt in it then the only the only thing influcting your decision is you're own sense of what its going to taste like (ei, taste). And the problem set forth here by myself is that theres always dirt in our coka acolas but we just don't know there is. What is gets me is those among us who think that they can judge between the coka acolas that one is less dirty (than anothers). Thus one has sands, pollen, mucus, or dandruff in it while another has lint, eyelashes, a toenail, and part of our dog in it. Thank you that you agreed with me. I know you annystand me. At 01:23 PM 10/1/2002 -0400, you wrote: >At one time I had tasted a coke acola that had dirt swiming inside of it that >had been placed there for a joke. On me. However I loved drinking all of it >at first blush until I came upto the dirty part of it. That proves that >anybody dosnt always know what your going to get. Is that lazy according to >henry, or not Gab? Yes i was lazy not to watch out for it so it got dirt put >into it although it tasted good to me and I almost drank the dirt. The >comparsion is among 2 seperate thins--coke acola and a poem. The comparison >means that a poem is good unless you read it carefully. Then you can find >other things in it that you never expected to read it. According to Gab >Beckit tried not to taste anything, I feel soory for his wife (even if he >even married her). > >Luv, Billie >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Oct 1 13:41:47 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 12:41:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 10/1/02 11:46 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/1/2002 10:44:34 AM Central Daylight Time, > paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > > >> Unfortunately, most academics want only their own >> ideas to be allowed free expression. If another minority were slandered in >> a poem the way the Jews were in Baraka's, a lot of people would change their >> minds and demand the poet's head on a platter. >> >> Paul Lake >> >> > > Seems to me that when a poet takes on a public position (especially if he or > she is paid for it) that poet is working under public constraints that > wouldn't be relevant if he or she were simply writing for the marketplace. If > someone is going to take public money to assume the role of spokesperson for > community, state, etc., then that poet should exercise enough responsibility > in his or her public utterances to avoid the kind of mindless, racist drivel > that Baraka has produced here. I agree with the notion that taking public money makes the issue of free speech more complex. Baraka has his First Amendment right to write and publish any idea he wants. Holding a public office and taking public money puts him in a different situation, though, as you say. Since public money is involved, I think he could be removed from office; the First Amendment doesn?t give Baraka the right to take tax payer money for his rant. I don?t think anyone should censor him, however, no matter how reprehensible his views. I also think the honorable thing to do in his situation would be to resign. Sadly, Baraka?s anti-Semitic and anti-white rhetoric are tolerated in a way that other forms of bigotry would not be. Being forced from the poet laureateship is the worst thing likely to happen to Baraka for his bigotry. If he?or a poet of another race?published a similarly racist rant directed at different targets, he?d be driven from the public square. No one would sponsor a reading for him, read his poems on the public air waves, publish his work, or hire him for any purpose ever again. By contrast, Baraka will merely become a slightly more controversial figure than he already was. I doubt, for instance, he?ll be asked to give up his emeritus status at the public university where he once taught. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Oct 1 14:05:42 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 14:05:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a matter of tase In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021001123113.02bd27a0@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <190.e385a9d.2acb3428@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021001140006.00aa6ec0@postoffice.brown.edu> Well Gab & Billie just because you have a taste for soda pop doesn't mean you're necessarily going to stand up & condemn all the pops you never tried. & it's not lazy (according to Henry) to not know whether you will like the taste of a pop until you tried it. and just because you don't like dirt in soda pop doesn't mean you're lazy for liking pop without dirt in it. and you're also not lazy for liking some pop more than others, I do. and it doesn't mean you're lazy if you like all pops or never even try them or even don't like them. I would say it's only lazy if you know you like pop but are too lazy to pick up the can. Henry At 12:38 PM 10/1/02 -0500, you wrote: >Agreed, Billie. If you have a coka acola with some dirt in it, then you >have a choice to either drink it up or to set it down. But if you don't >know theres no dirt in it then the only the only thing influcting your >decision is you're own sense of what its going to taste like (ei, taste). >And the problem set forth here by myself is that theres always dirt in our >coka acolas but we just don't know there is. What is gets me is those >among us who think that they can judge between the coka acolas that one is >less dirty (than anothers). Thus one has sands, pollen, mucus, or dandruff >in it while another has lint, eyelashes, a toenail, and part of our dog in >it. Thank you that you agreed with me. I know you annystand me. > >At 01:23 PM 10/1/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >>At one time I had tasted a coke acola that had dirt swiming inside of it that >>had been placed there for a joke. On me. However I loved drinking all of it >>at first blush until I came upto the dirty part of it. That proves that >>anybody dosnt always know what your going to get. Is that lazy according to >>henry, or not Gab? Yes i was lazy not to watch out for it so it got dirt put >>into it although it tasted good to me and I almost drank the dirt. The >>comparsion is among 2 seperate thins--coke acola and a poem. The comparison >>means that a poem is good unless you read it carefully. Then you can find >>other things in it that you never expected to read it. According to Gab >>Beckit tried not to taste anything, I feel soory for his wife (even if he >>even married her). >> >>Luv, Billie >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Cadaly at aol.com Tue Oct 1 14:08:20 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:08:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry Message-ID: not that I know of; I heard her read with Wanda Coleman at Beyond Baroque a year or two ago Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Oct 1 14:47:47 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:47:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] a matter of tase Message-ID: Billie, the best way to check to see if there's anything in the bottom of your coke bottle is to open it and peer into the mouth of the bottle while lifting the bottom of the bottle up to the light. Works every time. Sam "Pop" Gwynn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Oct 1 14:54:28 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:54:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] a matter of tase Message-ID: In a message dated 10/1/2002 1:48:14 PM Central Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > > Billie, the best way to check to see if there's anything in the bottom of > your coke bottle is to open it and peer into the mouth of the bottle while > lifting the bottom of the bottle up to the light. Works every time. > > Sam "Pop" Gwynn > > By the way, this works pretty well with cans too. You just have to tilt them a little more quickly to set the light in. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 1 14:58:50 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:58:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka References: Message-ID: <005b01c2697c$950b4480$8206fea9@j1c1k6> Re: [New-Poetry] BarakaSeems to me that when a poet takes on a public position (especially if he or she is paid for it) that poet is working under public constraints that wouldn't be relevant if he or she were simply writing for the marketplace. If someone is going to take public money to assume the role of spokesperson for community, state, etc., then that poet should exercise enough responsibility in his or her public utterances to avoid the kind of mindless, racist drivel that Baraka has produced here. I agree with the notion that taking public money makes the issue of free speech more complex. Baraka has his First Amendment right to write and publish any idea he wants. Holding a public office and taking public money puts him in a different situation, though, as you say. Since public money is involved, I think he could be removed from office; the First Amendment doesn't give Baraka the right to take tax payer money for his rant. I don't think anyone should censor him, however, no matter how reprehensible his views. I also think the honorable thing to do in his situation would be to resign. If Baraka recited his poem in his capacity as poet laureate, it would be proper for the governor to fire him. As he did not, it is not proper--unless you believe a job should make one a 24-hours-a-day slave of his employer. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Oct 1 15:04:31 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 14:04:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] a matter of taste Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F2A@mail.ripon.edu> When I gave a craft talk once on the notion of poetic taste, I think I may have said all I needed to when I quoted the old Starkist Tuna ad--you know, the one in which Charlie the tuna keeps trying to impress the tuna company with his good taste, donning a beret, speaking French, reciting poems, and so forth. But we don't want a tuna with good taste, now do we? [all together now]. . . "We want a tuna that tastes good!" I think that one of the problems here is that we tend to use the term "taste" to mean several distinct if not incompatible things, ranging from decorum to political correctness, with aesthetic or rhetorical power often shuttling uneasily among options. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Oct 1 15:06:49 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:06:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm wondering if you would feel the same about writers drawing pay from public institutions or receiving grants that involve public money on some level. Is a poet laureate a spokesperson for the community or for his/her art? Hal "The bacon too carries on its modest love affair." --Tony Towle Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ==================================== Seems to me that when a poet takes on a public position (especially if he or she is paid for it) that poet is working under public constraints that wouldn't be relevant if he or she were simply writing for the marketplace. If someone is going to take public money to assume the role of spokesperson for community, state, etc., then that poet should exercise enough responsibility in his or her public utterances to avoid the kind of mindless, racist drivel that Baraka has produced here. I agree with the notion that taking public money makes the issue of free speech more complex. Baraka has his First Amendment right to write and publish any idea he wants. Holding a public office and taking public money puts him in a different situation, though, as you say. Since public money is involved, I think he could be removed from office; the First Amendment doesn?t give Baraka the right to take tax payer money for his rant. I don?t think anyone should censor him, however, no matter how reprehensible his views. I also think the honorable thing to do in his situation would be to resign. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Tue Oct 1 15:25:50 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 14:25:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] a matter of taste In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F2A@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021001141612.02c0c840@mail.ilstu.edu> ><"taste" to mean several distinct if not incompatible things, ranging from >decorum to political correctness, with aesthetic or rhetorical power often >shuttling uneasily among options. >> Excellent points, David. In addition to these distinctions, I'd like to add that we seem to be talking about taste in two different ways: A:Taste as something inhering to individuals (ie, "he has taste," "you have taste," "you must have taste, or...") who have, through some special and undefined qualities that allow access to an uncanny and undefined judgment, are able to exercise their "taste" for the betterment of letters. B: Taste as something created by, dependent upon, and relative to various communities (temporally and geographically defined). Gabe From barry.spacks at verizon.net Tue Oct 1 16:09:32 2002 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 13:09:32 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Luv that Billie In-Reply-To: <200210011903.g91J32613011@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021001130327.00a07a30@incoming.verizon.net> At 03:03 PM 10/1/02 -0400, Luv-Billie wrote: >The comparison means that a poem is good unless you read it carefully. how true >According to Gab >Beckit tried not to taste anything, I feel soory for his wife (even if he >even married her). but I don't feel sorry for *your wife*, Luv-Billie, even if I didn't marry her. Many thanks for your thoughtful post -- nobody writes luv-billies like Luv-Billie! luv-Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Oct 1 21:23:38 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 21:23:38 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka Message-ID: <129.18739807.2acba49a@aol.com> Baraka can't help himself. How much better a spokesman for the oppressed and those discriminated against he'd have been over the years if he'd curbed his own racist excesses. To those who have followed his career this flap was no surprise. In fact it was a big ho-hum in most respects. Like a volcano we live in the shadow of, we expect from time to time that Baraka will get up a full head of steam, begin frothing at the mouth, and spew. Disgorging spurious internet nonsense as if anyone could take it as a serious and damning disclosure. The sad thing is that for most of us, perhaps his best audience, all of this was simply to be expected. Finnegan From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Oct 2 00:39:04 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:39:04 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste References: <23.2523fa12.2acb3071@cs.com> Message-ID: <007501c269cd$a522d210$66864cca@JROSS2> Tell you what it tells me down here in Australia, paying through the nose to rent -- you have a bloody bargain, and I'm moving continents ASAP!! Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 1:08 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] question of taste In a message dated 10/1/2002 12:04:27 PM Central Daylight Time, chryss at silcom.com writes: So, did you buy the house? Closing the tenth, moving the 11th. $135,000, brick, five br, two bath, paneled library, large den with fireplace, big fenced lot with 18x30 concrete pad for boat parking, large kitchen and separate formal dining room, sewing room, new central air and heat, new carpet, new ceramic tile, freshly painted, two car garage, 2700 square feet. What does this tell you about local property values? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ex2deuce at aol.com Wed Oct 2 05:49:11 2002 From: Ex2deuce at aol.com (Ex2deuce at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 05:49:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] a matter of taste Message-ID: <94.2d7d6e50.2acc1b17@aol.com> Here is another example about taste. I grew up with sardines. It was my favrite food. But my best friend liked oranges more than sadines. Then this lasted for a year until we switched. Now I like oranges more than having sadrines, versus my friend. For this reaon I agree with Henry. You can't change their minds. Everybody has there own opinions. Just try to learn as much as you can according to Gab. What you like depends on if you went to college. You CAN suceed if youre not lazy Henry. Luv, Billie From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Oct 2 09:59:45 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 09:59:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laurie Hogin In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021001140006.00aa6ec0@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021001123113.02bd27a0@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3D9AC391.3765.E86AC@localhost> http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2002/09/30/hogin/index.html Strange and exotic pictures; check out the portfolio link about halfway down the right side of the story about this intriguing artist. Marcus Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Oct 2 10:22:43 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 09:22:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 10/1/02 2:06 PM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote: > I'm wondering if you would feel the same about writers > drawing pay from public institutions or receiving grants > that involve public money on some level. > > Is a poet laureate a spokesperson for the community > or for his/her art? > > Hal "The bacon too carries on its modest > love affair." > --Tony Towle > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > ==================================== > Seems to me that when a poet takes on a public position (especially if he or > she is paid for it) that poet is working under public > constraints that wouldn't be relevant if he or she were simply writing for the > marketplace. If someone is going to take public > money to assume the role of spokesperson for community, state, etc., then that > poet should exercise enough responsibility in his or > her public utterances to avoid the kind of mindless, racist drivel that Baraka > has produced here. > > > I agree with the notion that taking public money makes the issue of free > speech more complex. Baraka has his First Amendment right > to write and publish any idea he wants. Holding a public office and taking > public money puts him in a different situation, though, > as you say. Since public money is involved, I think he could be removed from > office; the First Amendment doesn?t give Baraka the > right to take tax payer money for his rant. I don?t think anyone should censor > him, however, no matter how reprehensible his views. > I also think the honorable thing to do in his situation would be to resign. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > I suppose, by definition, a poet laureate holds a public position. But the questions you raise are interesting and vexing. I generally oppose using public funds to support the arts, partly to avoid situations like Baraka's and partly because bureaucratic arts-council types seem genetically incapable of supporting any but the most predictable art and politically correct sentiments. I'm still not sure what response, if any, Baraka's poem might require other than that others, using their own free speech, condemn the sentiments expressed in his poem. I also doubt we'd even be having this discussion if, say, a poet laureate wrote a long rant blaming Muslim immigrants for a litany of social ills. The public outcry would drown all discussion. In most public institutions today, simply opposing affirmative action is enough to turn a person into a persona non grata. Mention such an idea in a job interview or grant application at a public institution and watch the champions of free expression get out their inquisitorial tongs and hammers to purge their institution of "hate speech." From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Oct 2 10:32:20 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 09:32:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Review of Murphy Message-ID: Here's a review in Contemporary Poetry Review (by moi) of a poet you probably haven't heard of but should, especially if you're from America's Great Plains: http://www.cprw.com/Lake/murphy.htm Paul Lake From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu Tue Oct 1 23:47:24 2002 From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 22:47:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance Message-ID: Is there some reason that I am being excluded from the club, and my messages not circulated on this listserv? It also seems to me that Robert Pinsky is correct when he argues for people other than the poet reading and memorizing the poem. Quite a number of poems -- "The Waking" by Roethke, for example -- do not open themselves up for the instantaneous understanding that a "performance" poet must achieve. In performance, the poet embodies the text, so much so that frequently the problem of "identity politics" arises. I remember watching a performance by such a poet whose major claim to skill was that he had authentically worked in an assembly line and so was qualified to address the oppression of workers through his verse. [And no, he was not Philip Levine.] Existential authenticity becomes one of the central criteria for success as a performance poet: writers author the text through performative norms, such as body language, physical attire, facial expression, or intonation. All these elements disappear when there is only the text on the page that a reader can see, often with dispiriting results. I wonder to what degree the developments of audio and video media have affected what is acceptable as poetry. Indeed, to what degree has internet access led to a broadening of the idea of what poetry is? Michael Karl (Ritchie) From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Oct 2 12:49:58 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:49:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Two poems by Charles Henri Ford Message-ID: <138.1552d9fe.2acc7db6@cs.com> In a message dated 9/30/2002 5:21:49 PM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > Noiseless as memory, blind as fear, > lake, I shall make you into a poem, > for I would have you unpredictable as the human body: > I shall equip you with the strength of a dream, > rout you from your blue unconscious bed, > overturn your unconcern, > as the mind is overturned by memory, the heart by dread. > > --Charles Henri Ford Pretty damn nice, IMHO. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Oct 2 12:46:09 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 12:46:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Laurie Hogin Message-ID: <9c.2713b301.2acc7cd1@cs.com> See websites on Donald Roller Wilson's work. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chryss at silcom.com Wed Oct 2 13:33:12 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 10:33:12 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/1/02 8:47 PM, Michael Karl Ritchie wrote: > It also seems to me that Robert Pinsky is correct when he argues for people > other than the poet reading and memorizing the poem. This is something Dana Gioia proposed in "Can Poetry Matter?" too. A slight tangent to this discussion: an enthusiastic vote for "Poetry in Performance" -- bringing the "old standards" to life. My recent experience at the Santa Barbara Book Festival reaffirmed my belief that people (not just poets!) are STARVING to hear familiar poems read aloud. How many of us listen to radio stations that specialize in songs we've never heard before? Most of us like hearing our favorite songs again. Likewise, poems. At last Saturday's Festival, we varied from the usual format. The usual had been to allow local poets 15 minutes to read their own work, which made for a full day of mediocre, occasionally good poetry. Since local poets have few chances to read, it was seen as a service to give the poets an audience. Too bad the audience didn't tend to cooperate; attendance at previous festivals was generally limited to other poets, waiting for their moment in the spotlight. Very little public interest. This year, in contrast, local poets were invited to read their favorite poet, NOT their own work (though they could add one or two of their own poems, if they felt strongly about it). We had Rilke (read by Barry Spacks), Wordsworth (read by Paul Willis), Frost (read by John Ridland), Bishop (read by Chryss Yost), Paz (read by Crisman Cooley), . . . Twenty-one readers in all . . It was AWESOME. And by far the BEST audience we've ever had for poetry, despite a generally low Festival turnout because of rain. We actually had people drive from Ventura, just to hear Pablo Neruda read aloud! An unpredicted benefit: a full day of poets on stage, yet absolutely not one ego crisis! Everyone was respectful and enthusiastic, like show and tell--sharing their favorites with the class. Local poets were deeply involved, yet the format seemed to free everyone to simply enjoy the sound of the language, rather than show off their own genius. I've been calling this format "Poetry in Performance" to distinguish it from performance poetry. I would STRONGLY suggest y'all try having some oldies but goodies as part of your next reading. The public response has been an impassioned "more! more!" It's been a long time since I've heard that at a poetry reading! PS Spanish language poets were read in both Spanish and English. It was GREAT. From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 2 13:45:33 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:45:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { Twenty-one readers in { all . . It was AWESOME. And by far the BEST audience we've ever had for { poetry, despite a generally low Festival turnout because of rain. We { actually had people drive from Ventura, just to hear Pablo Neruda read { aloud! Well, shoot, I'd have crawled from NYC on my knees if you'd told me Neruda was reading, damn you. Hal "I'm not afraid of dying, I just don't want to be there when it happens." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com Wed Oct 2 13:47:36 2002 From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 17:47:36 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] a matter of taste Message-ID: Ha! I should've guessed it, Billy. You're not 15 - and you're Frank O'Hara's closet daughter! Bob >From: Ex2deuce at aol.com >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] a matter of taste >Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 05:49:11 EDT > >Here is another example about taste. I grew up with sardines. It was my >favrite food. But my best friend liked oranges more than sadines. Then >this >lasted for a year until we switched. Now I like oranges more than having >sadrines, versus my friend. For this reaon I agree with Henry. You can't >change their minds. Everybody has there own opinions. Just try to learn >as >much as you can according to Gab. What you like depends on if you went to >college. You CAN suceed if youre not lazy Henry. > >Luv, Billie >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Oct 2 13:50:06 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 12:50:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka, free speech, etc. Message-ID: After a little more thought, and despite my reservations about publicly funded poetry, I now lean toward the idea that Baraka should not resign or be forced to leave his post as poet laureate. His poem was bad and its sentiments abhorrent, but we've learned something about him, the governor who appointed him, and the double-standard that allows some groups to be slandered and some not in America today by letting Baraka have his say. I assume the laureateship has a set term, so let it expire, then replace Baraka if the state of New Jersey still feels the need to have a poet laureate. Here's an article by Salmon Rushdie in today's Washington Post on the threat to free speech posed by ideologues. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30193-2002Oct1.html Paul Lake From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Oct 2 14:16:30 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:16:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Performance Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F3B@mail.ripon.edu> I also wish more poets would present poems by other-than-themselves during readings. That's one thing I agree with Dana Gioia on, though it's certainly true that he didn't patent the idea. Bly used to do it all the time--probably still does, though I haven't heard him in years. Joe Langland usually does some Keats or Shakespeare or Frost when he reads. Some of the best readings I've heard have been of this type: Kinnell devoting a whole reading to Whitman in the mid-1970s; Michael Harper giving half or more of his time (on several occasions) to reading Robert Hayden; a tribute to Wallace Stevens once given by James Tate and others; good old Ginsberg singing Blake songs in his astoundingly tone-deaf manner. . . . Still, I don't think it's all that common. When I read poems by others at a reading a few years ago, the organizer (who's been putting on readings for a couple decades) complimented me afterward, remarking that he'd never seen anyone do such a thing. Strange. I know a few non-poets who arrange their mornings so as to be near a radio when Garrison Keillor reads his poem of the day. (Now collected in a book, I see, called *Good Poems*. Glad he didn't title it *Pretty Good Poems*.) ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From antrobin at clipper.net Wed Oct 2 14:20:39 2002 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:20:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Two poems by Charles Henri Ford References: <138.1552d9fe.2acc7db6@cs.com> Message-ID: <02d701c26a42$3b5afe00$31acefd8@0021936706> Hal, Can you post the Ford poems again? Thanks, Tony *** "The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." Emily Dickinson *** "I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth century." C. Montgomery Burns *** "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be better left alone." Kenneth Koch *** ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker" ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Two poems by Charles Henri Ford In a message dated 9/30/2002 5:21:49 PM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: Noiseless as memory, blind as fear, lake, I shall make you into a poem, for I would have you unpredictable as the human body: I shall equip you with the strength of a dream, rout you from your blue unconscious bed, overturn your unconcern, as the mind is overturned by memory, the heart by dread. --Charles Henri Ford Pretty damn nice, IMHO. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 2 15:00:18 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:00:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { In interested linguistic trivia of the day: Khmer has no past or future { tenses. I am writing a poem. Yesterday I am writing a poem. Next year I am { writing a poem. Neither do a number of AmerIndian languages--e.g. Hopi. Life's just one big hunting party that goes on forever or forever, whichever comes first. Hal "I need big art." --overheard in a Chelsea gallery Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 2 15:00:18 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:00:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Performance In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F3B@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: { I also wish more poets would present poems by other-than-themselves during { readings. That's one thing I agree with Dana Gioia on, though it's { certainly true that he didn't patent the idea. Bly used to do it all the { time--probably still does, though I haven't heard him in years. Joe { Langland usually does some Keats or Shakespeare or Frost when he reads. { Some of the best readings I've heard have been of this type: David, I believe Dylan Thomas used to start with poems by others, as did Allen Tate on the one occasion I heard him read. Sadly, he was so plastered that his reading of a William Lyon Phelps poem couldn't be understood, so no one laughed, and he stood there glaring at his audience, saying he'd just ready one of the funniest poems in the English language. Who'd know? That was in Mandel Hall at the Univ. of Chicago, c. 1959 or 1960. Hal "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be taken and to whom nothing must be given." --Anna Akhmatova Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 2 15:02:05 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:02:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Two poems by Charles Henri Ford In-Reply-To: <02d701c26a42$3b5afe00$31acefd8@0021936706> Message-ID: Here you go-- Somebody's Gone There may be a basement to the Atlantic but there's no top-storey to my mountain of missing you. I must say your deportment took a hunk out of my peach of a heart. I ain't insured against torpedoes! My turpentine tears would fill a drugstore. May I be blindfolded before you come my way again if you've going to leave dry land like an amphibian; I took you for some kind of ambrosial bird with no thought of acoustics. Maybe it's too late to blindfold me ever: I'm just a blotter crisscrossed with the ink of words that remind me of you. Bareheaded aircastle, you were as beautiful as a broom made of flesh and hair. When you first disappeared I couldn't keep up with my breakneck grief, and now I know how grief can run away with the mind, leaving the body desolate as a staircase. The Overturned Lake Blue unsolid tongue, if you could talk, the mountain would supply the brain; but mountains are mummies: the autobus and train, manmade worms, disturb their centuries. Tongue of a deafmute, the lake shudders, inarticulate. You are like the mind of a man, too: surface reflecting the blue day, the life about you seemingly organized, revolving about you, you as a center, but I am concerned in your overthrow: I should like to pick you up, as if you were a woman of water, hold you against the light and see your veins flow with fishes; reveal the animal-flowers that rise nightlike beneath your eyes. Noiseless as memory, blind as fear, lake, I shall make you into a poem, for I would have you unpredictable as the human body: I shall equip you with the strength of a dream, rout you from your blue unconscious bed, overturn your unconcern, as the mind is overturned by memory, the heart by dread. --Charles Henri Ford fr. *The Overturned Lake*, Little Man Press, 1941 in *English and American Surrealist Poetry*, ed. Edward B. Germain, Penguin, 1978 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Anthony Robinson Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 2:21 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Two poems by Charles Henri Ford Hal, Can you post the Ford poems again? Thanks, Tony *** "The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." Emily Dickinson *** "I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth century." C. Montgomery Burns *** "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be better left alone." Kenneth Koch *** ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker" ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Two poems by Charles Henri Ford In a message dated 9/30/2002 5:21:49 PM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: Noiseless as memory, blind as fear, lake, I shall make you into a poem, for I would have you unpredictable as the human body: I shall equip you with the strength of a dream, rout you from your blue unconscious bed, overturn your unconcern, as the mind is overturned by memory, the heart by dread. --Charles Henri Ford Pretty damn nice, IMHO. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope at icubed.com Wed Oct 2 15:50:12 2002 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 03:50:12 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1009 - 10 msgs In-Reply-To: <200210021601.g92G14625463@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200210021601.g92G14625463@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: I can't believe that I am reading these exchanges. Lake and Johnson will never teach at Naropa. Let's get Harvey Mansfield to get the Harvard trustees to fire their RadLib faculty. At last, the RadLib _100 Days_, _Iovis_ crowd is being slapped back from their phony moral high ground. "At Last!" Aretha sang. Streisand, McDermott, Baraka -- total flameouts. Purge! Purge! Purge! At 12:01 PM -0400 10/2/02, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > >Message: 8 >Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 09:22:43 -0500 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Baraka >From: Paul Lake >To: >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >on 10/1/02 2:06 PM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote: > >> I'm wondering if you would feel the same about writers >> drawing pay from public institutions or receiving grants >> that involve public money on some level. >> >> Is a poet laureate a spokesperson for the community >> or for his/her art? >> >> Hal "The bacon too carries on its modest >> love affair." >> --Tony Towle >> Halvard Johnson >> =============== >> email: halvard at earthlink.net >> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >> >> ==================================== >> Seems to me that when a poet takes on a public position (especially if he or >> she is paid for it) that poet is working under public >> constraints that wouldn't be relevant if he or she were simply >>writing for the >> marketplace. If someone is going to take public >> money to assume the role of spokesperson for community, state, >>etc., then that >> poet should exercise enough responsibility in his or >> her public utterances to avoid the kind of mindless, racist drivel >>that Baraka >> has produced here. >> >> >> I agree with the notion that taking public money makes the issue of free >> speech more complex. Baraka has his First Amendment right >> to write and publish any idea he wants. Holding a public office and taking >> public money puts him in a different situation, though, >> as you say. Since public money is involved, I think he could be >>removed from >> office; the First Amendment doesn?t give Baraka the >> right to take tax payer money for his rant. I don?t think anyone >>should censor >> him, however, no matter how reprehensible his views. >> I also think the honorable thing to do in his situation would be to resign. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >I suppose, by definition, a poet laureate holds a public position. But the >questions you raise are interesting and vexing. I generally oppose using >public funds to support the arts, partly to avoid situations like Baraka's >and partly because bureaucratic arts-council types seem genetically >incapable of supporting any but the most predictable art and politically >correct sentiments. I'm still not sure what response, if any, Baraka's poem >might require other than that others, using their own free speech, condemn >the sentiments expressed in his poem. I also doubt we'd even be having this >discussion if, say, a poet laureate wrote a long rant blaming Muslim >immigrants for a litany of social ills. The public outcry would drown all >discussion. In most public institutions today, simply opposing affirmative >action is enough to turn a person into a persona non grata. Mention such an >idea in a job interview or grant application at a public institution and >watch the champions of free expression get out their inquisitorial tongs and >hammers to purge their institution of "hate speech." -- From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 2 15:50:26 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:50:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ingeborg Bachmann, "Every Day" Message-ID: Every Day War is not declared any more, but simply continued. The terrible is an everyday thing. The hero stays far from battles. The weakling is moved into the firing lines. The uniform of the day is patience, its decoration the shabby star of hope above the heart. It is conferred when nothing more happens, when the drumfire stops, when the enemy has become invisible, and the shadow of eternal armament darkens the sky. It is conferred for the deserting of flags, for courage in the face of friends, for the betrayal of despicable secrets and disregard of all commands. --Ingeborg Bachmann, 1953 tr. Christopher Middleton Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Oct 2 15:54:28 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:54:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] No Naropa? Message-ID: >Lake and Johnson will never teach at Naropa. Oh, no, my life's ambition shattered. How will I go on? From gmcvay at patriot.net Wed Oct 2 16:13:53 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:13:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] No Naropa? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Paul, If I ever start a weird interdisciplinary Buddhist university, you are hereby invited to teach at it. Yours, Gwyn (single n) --- ...the busy day, Waked by the lark, hath roused the ribald crows. --_Troilus and Cressida_, IV ii From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 2 17:02:15 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:02:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] No Naropa? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { >Lake and Johnson will never teach at Naropa. { { Oh, no, my life's ambition shattered. How will I go on? I'll give you a hand, Paul, just as soon as I wipe these tears from my eyes. Hal "A little pain never hurt anyone." --Anon. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 2 18:34:28 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 18:34:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Performance References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F3B@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <009501c26a63$defe27a0$1252fea9@j1c1k6> > I also wish more poets would present poems by other-than-themselves during > readings. That's one thing I agree with Dana Gioia on, though it's > certainly true that he didn't patent the idea. Bly used to do it all the > time--probably still does, though I haven't heard him in years. Dylan Thomas always read a lot of stuff by people other than himself. The few times I've been asked to "read" (actually to present since my stuff is mostly visual), I've shown work by others in the field. I think one should read or show work that the audience wouldn't otherwise come into contact with rather than Keats or the like, though. --Bob G. From chryss at silcom.com Wed Oct 2 18:46:26 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:46:26 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Performance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/2/02 12:00 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > David, I believe Dylan Thomas used to start with poems by others, > as did Allen Tate on the one occasion I heard him read. Couldn't it be said that the "new" approach is to read one's own work? I don't think any modern poet can be credited with this "innovation." If we consider the history of poetry, most people who recited it did not recite original work. The expectation that the reader is also the writer is pretty recent, isn't it? Who would pay to go to the theatre to watch actors perform in their own skits, rather than watching real plays. . . This seems an unfortunately accurate comparison. . . C. From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Oct 2 21:15:14 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 20:15:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Wallace Stevens Message-ID: <200210030114.g931E6C53960@mx14.mx.voyager.net> I learn from Garrison Keillor's Writer's Almanac that today's notable birthdays include Graham Greene, Groucho Marx, and Wallace Stevens. A hard trio to top. Mustn't fail to celebrate just a little. Not sure what Greene would have thought of this, but I'm quite confident Groucho would have liked it: Bantams in a Pine Woods Chieftain Iffucan of Azcan in caftan Of tan with henna hackles, halt! Damned universal cock, as if the sun Was blackamoor to bear your blazing tail. Fat! Fat! Fat! Fat! I am the personal. Your world is you. I am my world. You ten-foot poet among inchlings. Fat! Begone! An inchling bristles in these pines, Bristles, and points their Appalachian tangs, And fears not portly Azcan nor his hoos. --Wallace Stevens ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From Cadaly at aol.com Wed Oct 2 22:50:24 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:50:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Performance Message-ID: <4e.122b3037.2acd0a70@aol.com> Sadly, in my own experience, this reading of poems by others is done pretentiously and sanctimoniously. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadlay at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Oct 2 22:57:44 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 21:57:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance Message-ID: <200210030256.g932uZKR084619@mx7.mx.voyager.net> Sadly, in my own experience, this reading of poems by others is done pretentiously and sanctimoniously. Rgds, Catherine Daly Here's hoping you haven't attended one of *my* readings, Catherine. . . . ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 3 10:32:08 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 07:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Wallace Stevens In-Reply-To: <200210030114.g931E6C53960@mx14.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <20021003143208.2611.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> This poem reminds me of a John Updike poem I like: Recital Roger Bobo Gives Recital on Tuba --Headline in the Times Eskimos in Manitoba, Barracuda off Aruba, Cock an ear when Roger Bobo Starts to solo on the tuba. Men of every nation?Poo-Bah, Nabob, bozo, toff, and hobo? Cry in unison, ?Indubi- Tably, there is simply nobo- Dy who oompahs on the tubo, Solo, quite like Roger Bubo.? Jeff Newberry David Graham wrote: Bantams in a Pine Woods Chieftain Iffucan of Azcan in caftan Of tan with henna hackles, halt! Damned universal cock, as if the sun Was blackamoor to bear your blazing tail. Fat! Fat! Fat! Fat! I am the personal. Your world is you. I am my world. You ten-foot poet among inchlings. Fat! Begone! An inchling bristles in these pines, Bristles, and points their Appalachian tangs, And fears not portly Azcan nor his hoos. --Wallace Stevens --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Oct 3 10:46:46 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 10:46:46 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Wallace Stevens Message-ID: <19f.9cfcc11.2acdb256@cs.com> In a message dated 10/3/2002 9:32:45 AM Central Daylight Time, jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: > This poem reminds me of a John Updike poem I like: > > > > Recital > > Roger Bobo Gives Recital on Tuba > > --Headline in the Times > > What a loss it was when Updike decided to write only "serious" verse. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Oct 3 11:51:20 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 10:51:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] No Naropa? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 10/2/02 3:13 PM, Gwyn McVay at gmcvay at patriot.net wrote: > Dear Paul, > > If I ever start a weird interdisciplinary Buddhist university, you are > hereby invited to teach at it. > > Yours, Gwyn (single n) > > --- > ...the busy day, > Waked by the lark, hath roused the ribald crows. > --_Troilus and Cressida_, IV ii > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Thanks, Gwyn. Yours is the first weird interdisciplinary Buddhist university I'll apply to. Paul From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Oct 3 11:52:47 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 10:52:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] No Naropa? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 10/2/02 4:02 PM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote: > > { >Lake and Johnson will never teach at Naropa. > { > { Oh, no, my life's ambition shattered. How will I go on? > > I'll give you a hand, Paul, just as soon as I wipe these > tears from my eyes. > > Hal "A little pain never hurt anyone." > --Anon. > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Hal, who ever imagined us as colleagues before yesterday as failed Naropans? Paul From ron.silliman at verizon.net Thu Oct 3 13:23:55 2002 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 13:23:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] No Naropa? In-Reply-To: <200210031558.g93FwB610505@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000001c26b01$aa87a1b0$bf06c143@Dell> When I did a summer teaching stint at Naropa (quite a few years ago), it was Allen Ginsberg who was actively teaching the students Herrick, assigning the Norton Anthology, etc. He felt that the students needed grounding in what had been written and since nobody else was focusing on that he did (a student of Trilling's to the end!). Ron Silliman From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 3 06:39:24 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 06:39:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance References: Message-ID: <000201c26b0d$7f8eb140$f838fea9@j1c1k6> > My recent experience at the Santa Barbara Book Festival reaffirmed my belief > that people (not just poets!) are STARVING to hear familiar poems read > aloud. How many of us listen to radio stations that specialize in songs > we've never heard before? Most of us like hearing our favorite songs again. > Likewise, poems. Not me, though I have nothing against it--but I hear the poems I read silently to myself; I don't know music well enough to hear scores I read to myself. On the other hand, it's as nice to hear a familiar favorite poem one has not thought of for a while as it is to chance upon it in one's reading. So I'm all for a mix of oldies and contemporary poems. I think to present nothing but golden treasures, though, is a crime against poetry. I think an important factor here is in the audience's being able to follow a poem, as they can their old favorites but often can't the better new poems. So I think a good thing to do at a reading might be to pass out handouts containing the texts of the poems to be read. --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Oct 3 15:06:14 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:06:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: LeRoi Jones (Imiri Baraka), "The Liar" Message-ID: The Liar What I thought was love in me, I find a thousand instances as fear. (Of the tree's shadow winding around the chair, a distant music of frozen birds rattling in the cold. Where ever I go to claim my flesh, there are entrances of spirit. And even its comforts are hideous uses I strain to understand. Though I am a man who is loud on the birth of his ways. Publicly redefining each change in my soul, as if I had predicted them, and profited, biblically, even tho their chanting weight, erased familiarity from my face. A question I think, an answer; whatever sits counting the minutes till you die. When they say, "It is Roi who is dead?" I wonder who will they mean? --LeRoi Jones fr. *The Dead Lecturer*, 1964 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From elemenope at icubed.com Thu Oct 3 15:24:34 2002 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 03:24:34 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka Evicerated by Michelle Malkin, Conservative Columnist Message-ID: >http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/mm20021002.shtml Zo! The Torch flames out. Baraka flames out. Harkin flames out. Dead Senator's wife flames out. Baghdad McDermott flames out. N.J. Supreme Crt flames out. Daschle flames out. See the Clinton 20K pay out to Sandinista Annie's Naropa JKSDP to promote BarakaIsm LeninIsm CastroIsm any Ism but MadisonIsm. exposes how the RadLibs get the payout by getting their fraudulent blame out. Their ranted hate out. During this Mercury Retrograde time frame let us go back to Florida 2000. Who concocted the Butterfly Ballot? Who filed the first lawsuit knowing the Florida Supremes sing their song? Who rigged the evidence that Yalie statistician was fed so he'd suppose the voters voted Gore? Who? Who told you Gore won by 20K? Who tells you today? Even at this hour? Who? Who stood in Britain Oct. 3, 2002 and told these lies to the New Labor Party, broke faith with his President? Who wants to run the U.N? To whom did the Torch apologize? Who rewrote from the bench the 51 day law in New Jersey? Who was losing the heavyweight fight bigtime so they took out one pug put in another? Who selected Lautenberg over Crook Torch with their fixer backroom court? Who sold the N.J. Green Party down the river in the name of the "Two Party System?" Who sold the N.J. Patriot Party down that same river? Who sold the N.J. military ballots already used and returned to home districts down the river? Who? Who? Who? Who sold tiniest H-Bomb to Zemin who then popped it atop the rocket to aim at YOU sold to him by whom? [Find out in the Cox Report, Rep. Chris Cox, Ca/R., last Conservative editor of Harvard Law Review] >>http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/mm20021002.shtml > >-- > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Oct 3 15:49:20 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:49:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] No Naropa? Message-ID: In a message dated 10/3/2002 12:26:05 PM Central Daylight Time, ron.silliman at verizon.net writes: > He felt that the students needed > grounding in what had been written and since nobody else was focusing on > that he did (a student of Trilling's to the end!). > Van Doren's, don't you mean? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Oct 3 15:58:55 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:58:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka Evicerated by Michelle Malkin, Conservative Columnist Message-ID: <4d.2528be56.2acdfb7f@cs.com> In a message dated 10/3/2002 2:26:57 PM Central Daylight Time, elemenope at icubed.com writes: > > >> http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/mm20021002.shtml > And she's an Oberlin grad? My god. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Oct 3 16:54:33 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:54:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Membership Letter Message-ID: <74.24124b68.2ace0889@aol.com> Chriistine, I got the file open correctly and I'm all set. I'll run some off for the Bash. My daughter is starting a job this week busing tables...and I think she's got to work both Friday and Sat. I'll work with Robin at the ticket area. Or I'll try to find a suitable replacement. Jim F From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 3 21:26:15 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:26:15 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: LeRoi Jones (Imiri Baraka), "The Liar" References: Message-ID: <00b301c26b45$0a2cd160$6d864cca@JROSS2> Thanks for that, Hal! We might have forgotten about the "good" stuff in the wake of Baraka's misjudgement. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 3:06 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: LeRoi Jones (Imiri Baraka), "The Liar" > > The Liar > > What I thought was love > in me, I find a thousand instances > as fear. (Of the tree's shadow > winding around the chair, a distant music > of frozen birds rattling > in the cold. > Where ever I go to claim > my flesh, there are entrances > of spirit. And even its comforts > are hideous uses I strain > to understand. > Though I am a man > who is loud > on the birth > of his ways. Publicly redefining > each change in my soul, as if I had predicted > them, > and profited, biblically, even tho > their chanting weight, > erased familiarity > from my face. > A question I think, > an answer; whatever sits > counting the minutes > till you die. > > When they say, "It is Roi > who is dead?" I wonder > who will they mean? > > > --LeRoi Jones > > fr. *The Dead Lecturer*, 1964 > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Thu Oct 3 22:28:00 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:28:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Wallace Stevens Message-ID: In a message dated 10/3/02 10:32:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com writes: > Eskimos in Manitoba, > > Barracuda off Aruba, > > Cock an ear when Roger Bobo > > Starts to solo on the tuba. > Or how 'bout... Barracuda off Manitoba, Eskimos in Aruba Cock an ear when Roger Bobo Starts to solo on the tuba. Incidentally, this Saturday night in Hartford CT we're throwing the annual Birthday Bash for Wallace Stevens. This year's guest speaker will be Galway Kinnell. Be there or be square, Finnegan From rloden at concentric.net Fri Oct 4 11:37:37 2002 From: rloden at concentric.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 08:37:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021001103004.00aac240@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <000c01c26bbb$fb124490$9b000140@Glasscastle> Henry wrote: > Taste is simply discrimination, isn't it? Charles Mingus seemed to think so. This is how he signed my copy of "Mingus in Monterey": Thank you in THIS, your DISCRIMINATING purchase. Rachel From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Oct 4 11:42:14 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:42:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics by Others Message-ID: <007601c26bbc$9e6c0c20$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> If you see, out of the corner of your inner eye, this shapely, delicate piece of pottery you want to create, and then you go to the store to get whatever materials you need, and you have an excess of them, but put your first allegiance to that palpable shape you have perceived -- even if it means that you will use hardly any of these materials -- if that's your first allegiance, then I think you are a formalist. The alternative is to have the materials there, and to see what can be made of them, with first allegiance to those materials: you are willing to compromise on what I think of as the balanced relationship of all the parts. That balance is what "form" means to me. Ellen Bryant Voigt http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/poetry/voigt.htm SITUATIONS pub date October 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Oct 4 12:04:36 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 11:04:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics by Others In-Reply-To: <007601c26bbc$9e6c0c20$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: on 10/4/02 10:42 AM, theoldmole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote: > If you see, out of the corner of your inner eye, this shapely, delicate piece > of pottery you want to create, and then you go to the store to get whatever > materials you need, and you have an excess of them, but put your first > allegiance to that palpable shape you have perceived -- even if it means that > you will use hardly any of these materials -- if that's your first allegiance, > then I think you are a formalist. The alternative is to have the materials > there, and to see what can be made of them, with first allegiance to those > materials: you are willing to compromise on what I think of as the balanced > relationship of all the parts. That balance is what "form" means to me. > > Ellen Bryant Voigt > > > http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/poetry/voigt.htm > > > > > > SITUATIONS > pub date October 1 > to order - or for more info > http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html > > Ezra Pound first used this idea?that formal poems were like clay vases as > opposed to the free-flowing organic forms of non-formal verse. I devoted a > long essay to this popular but ultimately wrong idea. The essay is entitled > ?The Shape of Poetry? and you can read it in The Measured Word: On Poetry and > Science (Georgia) or on-line at: > > http://www.cprw.com/Lake/ShapeofPoetry.htm Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hruggier at localnet.com Fri Oct 4 12:47:25 2002 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 12:47:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] NJ LAUREATE BASHING Message-ID: <3D9DC61D.63B7DB3B@localnet.com> New Jersey folks knew who Baraka was before they appointed him - whitehater, wife beater, etc. They have no call to whine now about what he writes - like Collins - he does what he does. From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Oct 4 12:28:29 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 11:28:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics by Others Message-ID: <200210041627.g94GRJ7V046694@mx1.mx.voyager.net> It's all dueling metaphors, at some level. . . . If I recall correctly, this one of Pound's was that a poem in trad form was like a vase or jar (fixed in form) into which content was poured, the vase (sonnet, blank verse, etc.) remaining the same while the specific contents varied widely. Vers libre was more like a tree--every maple recognizably a tree, with certain formal properties inherent, but no two exactly alike, and responding as it grows to local (organic) conditions. Needless to say, the vase metaphor seems highly flawed, not taking account of the evolution of form over time, the play of rhythms within and against received metrics, etc. And "content" in this instance seems a pre-existent thing, rather than being something developed in conjuction *with* formal wrangling. So: a very problematic definition. And the tree metaphor, though I find it highly attractive (and tell it to my students often) is equally flawed. The question ultimately begged is what *is* the definition of "tree" in this instance? Most attempts to pin down the rules of vers libre have been more or less noble failures, seems to me. Haven't read Paul Lake's discussion of these matters for a while, which I'm probably in part reiterating. In any case, as Pound's one-time friend Robert Frost famously noted, all metaphors break down at some point. They're talking points, mainly, possibly dangerous to push too far. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= ---------- From: Paul Lake To: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetics by Others Date: Fri, Oct 4, 2002, 11:04 AM on 10/4/02 10:42 AM, theoldmole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote: If you see, out of the corner of your inner eye, this shapely, delicate piece of pottery you want to create, and then you go to the store to get whatever materials you need, and you have an excess of them, but put your first allegiance to that palpable shape you have perceived -- even if it means that you will use hardly any of these materials -- if that's your first allegiance, then I think you are a formalist. The alternative is to have the materials there, and to see what can be made of them, with first allegiance to those materials: you are willing to compromise on what I think of as the balanced relationship of all the parts. That balance is what "form" means to me. Ellen Bryant Voigt Ezra Pound first used this ideathat formal poems were like clay vases as opposed to the free-flowing organic forms of non-formal verse. I devoted a long essay to this popular but ultimately wrong idea. The essay is entitled The Shape of Poetry and you can read it in The Measured Word: On Poetry and Science (Georgia) or on-line at: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Oct 4 12:41:12 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:41:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics by Others Message-ID: <136.14f91215.2acf1ea8@cs.com> In a message dated 10/4/2002 11:28:14 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > Vers libre was more like a tree--every maple recognizably a tree, with > certain formal properties inherent, but no two exactly alike, and > responding as it grows to local (organic) conditions. This was originally Emerson's metaphor in "The Poet." Whitman picked up on it in his intro to Leaves of Grass. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Oct 4 12:42:10 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:42:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics by Others Message-ID: <60.272953a5.2acf1ee2@cs.com> In a message dated 10/4/2002 10:39:53 AM Central Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > > If you see, out of the corner of your inner eye, this shapely, delicate > piece of pottery you want to create, and then you go to the store to get > whatever materials you need, and you have an excess of them, but put your > first allegiance to that palpable shape you have perceived -- even if it > means that you will use hardly any of these materials -- if that's your > first allegiance, then I think you are a formalist. The alternative is to > have the materials there, and to see what can be made of them, with first > allegiance to those materials: you are willing to compromise on what I > think of as the balanced relationship of all the parts. That balance is > what "form" means to me. > > Ellen Bryant Voigt > Shoot, I'd just go to Pottery Barn. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Oct 4 12:57:20 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 12:57:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics by Others In-Reply-To: <60.272953a5.2acf1ee2@cs.com> Message-ID: <3D9D9030.2629.9FEE72@localhost> > tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > > If you see, out of the corner of your inner eye, this shapely, delicate > > piece of pottery you want to create, and then you go to the store to get > > whatever materials you need, and you have an excess of them, but put your > > first allegiance to that palpable shape you have perceived -- even if it > > means that you will use hardly any of these materials -- if that's your > > first allegiance, then I think you are a formalist. The alternative is to > > have the materials there, and to see what can be made of them, with first > > allegiance to those materials: you are willing to compromise on what I > > think of as the balanced relationship of all the parts. That balance is > > what "form" means to me. > > Ellen Bryant Voigt Sam Gwynn: > Shoot, I'd just go to Pottery Barn. Way cool! There's a Poetry Barn! Where!? Oh. Never mind. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Oct 4 12:55:45 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 11:55:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics by Others/Metre Making Arguments Message-ID: <200210041654.g94GsZV6058484@mx12.mx.voyager.net> I make a pact with you, Sam Gwynn-- you have heaved corrections into my in-box long enough. I come to you as a pig-headed poet in the dark woods of his spotty memory; yet who cannot even remember just why a good memory matters. Now is a time for growing metaphors, not chopping them down. Let there be conversation between us: what's your metaphor, friend? ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= In a message dated 10/4/2002 11:28:14 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: Vers libre was more like a tree--every maple recognizably a tree, with certain formal properties inherent, but no two exactly alike, and responding as it grows to local (organic) conditions. This was originally Emerson's metaphor in "The Poet." Whitman picked up on it in his intro to Leaves of Grass. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Fri Oct 4 13:18:57 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 13:18:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] question of taste In-Reply-To: <000c01c26bbb$fb124490$9b000140@Glasscastle> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021001103004.00aac240@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021004131724.00aaaa90@postoffice.brown.edu> Cool. I descry sonic DISCERNMENT from afar. > > Taste is simply discrimination, isn't it? > >Charles Mingus seemed to think so. This is how he signed my copy of >"Mingus in Monterey": > >Thank you in THIS, your DISCRIMINATING purchase. > >Rachel From ron.silliman at verizon.net Fri Oct 4 13:35:15 2002 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:35:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ron Silliman - 3 NYC Readings in two days In-Reply-To: <200210041601.g94G13623138@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000201c26bcc$aa6c4d40$7006c143@Dell> I will be giving three readings in two days in New York City this month: October 15, 2002 at 8:00 pm, New School, Tishman Auditorium at 66 West 12th St., NYC. Free. Short Fuse Launch Reading featuring Simon Armitage, Charles Bernstein, Glyn Maxwell, Bob Holman, Patricia Smith, Ron Silliman, Willie Perdomo, Todd Colby, Regie Cabico, Emily XYZ, Robert Allen, Edwin Torres, DJ Renegade, Zoe Anglesey, Adeena Karasick, Fortner Anderson, Prageeta Sharma, Wednesday Kennedy, Penn Kemp, Guillermo Castro, Mary O'Donoghue, Richard Peabody, Victoria Stanton, Vincent Tinguely, David McGimpsey, Helen Thomas, Barbara DeCesare, Corey Frost, Ian Ferrier, Joshua Auerbach, Robert Priest, Sean Thomas Dougherty, Catherine Kidd, Kevin Higgins, Rosemary Dun, Tug Dumbly, Ben Doyle Jill Battson, K?lina Gotman, Andrea Thompson, Dawna Matrix Jason Pettus, Heather Hermant, Larry Jaffe, Sean M. Whelan, Lauren Williams, Siobhan Fitzpatrick, David Hill, Silvana Straw, Srikanth Reddy, and MTC Cronin. Hosted by Todd Swift and Philip Norton. October 16, 2002 at 6:30 pm, Jefferson Market Library, 425 Ave. of the Americas at 10th St., NYC. Free. Featuring Simon Armitage, Ron Silliman and Stephanos Papadopoulos. October 16, 2002 at 7:30 pm, Bowery Poetry Club, 308 Bowery & Bleecker, NYC. $5. Featuring Srikanth Reddy, Ron Silliman, Fortner Anderson, Adeena Karasick, David McGimpsey, Penn Kemp, Kevin Higgins, Robert Priest, Rosemary Dunn, Todd Swift, Philip Norton, Sean M. Whelan, Helen Thomas, Richard Peabody, Joshua Auerbach, MTC Cronin, Barbara DeCesare, Siobhan Fitzpatrick, David Hill, and Bob Holman. I'll be reading something different for each occasion. I hope to see you at one (or more!) of the above, Ron From JforJames at aol.com Fri Oct 4 13:51:09 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:51:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] influential fakers Message-ID: <172.fcd89dc.2acf2f0d@aol.com> http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/reviews/story.jsp?story=332756 From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Oct 4 13:53:05 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:53:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics by Others/Metre Making Arguments Message-ID: <186.f570cd7.2acf2f81@cs.com> In a message dated 10/4/2002 11:56:09 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > I make a pact with you, Sam Gwynn-- > you have heaved corrections into my in-box long enough. > I come to you as a pig-headed poet > in the dark woods of his spotty memory; > yet who cannot even remember > just why a good memory matters. > Now is a time for growing metaphors, > not chopping them down. Let there be conversation > between us: what's your metaphor, friend? I've always said my poetry is like a well-wrought urn. How's that for originality? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Fri Oct 4 14:10:37 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:10:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Metre Making Arguments Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F44@mail.ripon.edu> > I've always said my poetry is like a well-wrought urn. How's that for > originality? > Of course poetry ought to earn well! I've always believed you should be paid for your work. . . . --David Littella ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From ccooley at overdomain.com Fri Oct 4 14:08:55 2002 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:08:55 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Performance In-Reply-To: <200210031558.g93FwB610510@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: More evidence for your points, Chryss, last night at Center Stage Theatre when Omar Sangare, a black actor and poet from Poland read poetry of Wislawa Szymborska in English and Polish, accompanied by virtuoso cellist Jakub Omsky, who played Bach, Lutoslawski, and his own improvisation. The two performers evoked moods lyrical, mysterious, stark, frightening, and funny. No pretense or sanctimony, Ms. Catherine D. This post-post-modern evening recalled my tattered imagination of oral epics, scops and muse-inspired singers of all times before the art was intruded into by the printed page. Nor was any person square who wasn't there. My favorite recording is of Dylan Thomas reading Christopher Marlowe, the speech at the end of Faust: "Ah, Faustus, now hast thou but no bare hour to live..." Has anyone heard it? --Crisman Message: 6 From: "Bob Grumman" To: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Performance Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 18:34:28 -0400 Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > I also wish more poets would present poems by > other-than-themselves during > > readings. That's one thing I agree with Dana Gioia on, though it's > > certainly true that he didn't patent the idea. Bly used to do > it all the > > time--probably still does, though I haven't heard him in years. > > Dylan Thomas always read a lot of stuff by people other than himself. > > --Bob G. > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:46:26 -0700 > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Performance > From: Chryss Yost > To: > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > On 10/2/02 12:00 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > David, I believe Dylan Thomas used to start with poems by others, > > as did Allen Tate on the one occasion I heard him read. > > Couldn't it be said that the "new" approach is to read one's own work? I > don't think any modern poet can be credited with this "innovation." If we > consider the history of poetry, most people who recited it did not recite > original work. The expectation that the reader is also the writer > is pretty > recent, isn't it? > Who would pay to go to the theatre to watch actors perform in their own > skits, rather than watching real plays. . . This seems an unfortunately > accurate comparison. . . > C. > Message: 9 > From: Cadaly at aol.com > Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:50:24 EDT > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Performance > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > --part1_4e.122b3037.2acd0a70_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Sadly, in my own experience, this reading of poems by others is done > pretentiously and sanctimoniously. > > Rgds, > Catherine Daly > cadlay at pacbell.net > From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Oct 4 14:22:43 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:22:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics by Others References: <60.272953a5.2acf1ee2@cs.com> Message-ID: <013b01c26bd3$081bb420$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetics by Others In a message dated 10/4/2002 10:39:53 AM Central Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: If you see, out of the corner of your inner eye, this shapely, delicate piece of pottery you want to create, and then you go to the store to get whatever materials you need, and you have an excess of them, but put your first allegiance to that palpable shape you have perceived -- even if it means that you will use hardly any of these materials -- if that's your first allegiance, then I think you are a formalist. The alternative is to have the materials there, and to see what can be made of them, with first allegiance to those materials: you are willing to compromise on what I think of as the balanced relationship of all the parts. That balance is what "form" means to me. Ellen Bryant Voigt Shoot, I'd just go to Pottery Barn. Well, I shouldn't make fun of my own post -- which I put up as a variation on "Poems by Others," and I'll be putting up more -- to provoke discussion, if all goes well. But...I'm reminded of the line from Animal House: "She was (big sigh) throwing a pot for me." SITUATIONS pub date October 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Oct 4 15:02:35 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:02:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics by Others/Metre Making Arguments References: <186.f570cd7.2acf2f81@cs.com> Message-ID: <017b01c26bd8$9a589600$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I make a pact with you, Sam Gwynn-- you have heaved corrections into my in-box long enough. I come to you as a pig-headed poet in the dark woods of his spotty memory; yet who cannot even remember just why a good memory matters. Now is a time for growing metaphors, not chopping them down. Let there be conversation between us: what's your metaphor, friend? I've always said my poetry is like a well-wrought urn. How's that for originality? I've always thought of mine as well-earned rot. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Oct 4 19:54:35 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 16:54:35 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Albuquerque query Message-ID: <3D9E2A3A.27C58FFF@earthlink.net> Does anyone know who to contact about setting up a reading in Albuquerque? I and a couple of other poets will be there between Feb. 12 - 15 and would like to arrange something if possible. - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Those who believe in substantiality are like cows; those who believe in emptiness are worse. -- Saraha ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Oct 4 21:38:18 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 21:38:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Albuquerque query Message-ID: <97.2e87dece.2acf9c8a@cs.com> In a message dated 10/4/2002 6:55:59 PM Central Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > Does anyone know who to contact about setting up a reading in > Albuquerque? I and a couple of other poets will be there between Feb. > 12 - 15 and would like to arrange something if possible. > > - Jim Call Diane Thiel at UNM. http://www.dianethiel.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lcrespi at yahoo.com Sat Oct 5 04:47:15 2002 From: lcrespi at yahoo.com (Linda Crespi) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 01:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Snakeskin - Short poems requested In-Reply-To: <78.2d36e724.2ac52978@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021005084715.39666.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com> October Snakeskin is on line now. Check out Rebecca Lu Kiernan's pieces. Quality. George Simmers asks me to remind all interested parties that November Snakeskin will be a short poems special. Any subject/style - ten lines maximum. He wants to be swamped by submissions apparently. Linda C. ===== The Crespi Page is at: http://snakeskin.org.uk/crespi.htm New work appears usually in Snakeskin Webzine: http://www.snakeskin.org.uk __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Oct 5 11:40:17 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 11:40:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gunnar Ekelof, from "Karagoz" Message-ID: I saw a coffin, draped in green, being borne from Eyub By ten, by a hundred, by a thousand relatives and friends How is it possible, you may ask, for such a multitude To act as bearers for one coffin of average human length? Oh, that's easy, that lightens the burden: The pair at the tail of the procession keep hurrying forward To relieve the pair at its head Who shift their hold and become the second pair Then the third, then the fourth, as a new pair come to the front After ranking as chief mourners, they take second place and so on Until, by and by, they rank as cousins twice removed And so on until they come to the rear and the process begins again In this way the last shall always be first. Death's number is even, life's is odd. That is why the one they bear is the thousand-and-First. --Gunnar Ekelof fr. "Karagoz" in *The Tale of Fatumeh* tr. W. H. Auden and Leif Sjoberg in *Gunnar Ekelof: Selected Poems*, Penguin, 1971 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From adead_poet at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 13:42:00 2002 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 12:42:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bly and Barks Message-ID: With all the talk of performance poetry, I thought I'd ask if anyone has seen Robert Bly and Coleman Barks read. They were in Houston this past Monday and I went to see them. They had a cellist and someone else playing along with them. I don't know what the second instrument was. Some sort of guitar-like instrument from the middle east. It was interesting to hear the music playing along with the poetry. It made it an entertaining reading. I didn't really like the original work by Bly and Barks (their translation of Rumi was great), but the music made that part enjoyable, even if the poetry wasn't so great. They did go on for a while. about 2 hours. I thought it was a little long. I also found that I didn't get most of the jokes (apparently the audience did, because there was a lot of laughter). Bly had to keep going back and pointing out what he said was a joke, so I don't feel it was me. Had to be his jokes. Bly took some time to throw out a political sermon. He just can't understand why we aren't protesting this upcoming war with Iraq the way they did during Viet Nam. And then a few cheap insults thrown and Bush and he moved on (and no I'm not trying to start a political conversation, I'm just telling you about the reading). Bly was the dominant of the two. He sort of pushed Barks around. At least that's how it looked to me. But in the end, it was an enjoyable performance, and they drew one of the biggest crowds I've seen for a poetry reading (only the Billy Collins reading last year compares to in size). jason _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From adead_poet at hotmail.com Sat Oct 5 13:52:22 2002 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 12:52:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for a barks poem Message-ID: There was one poem Coleman Barks read that I liked. I think it was called "No Finale", but I can't be 100% on that. It might be a good one, and I'd like to take a closer look at it (and since I didn't like any other of Barks' original work, I'm not going to buy the books). Does anyone have a copy of the poem they could post for me? thanks jason _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From ccooley at overdomain.com Sat Oct 5 13:53:41 2002 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 10:53:41 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Performance In-Reply-To: <200210051601.g95G14631866@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Misprint on the jacket: should say "...but one bare hour..." May not matter to Caedmon, but it was Faust's last hour, and so may have mattered to him. > My favorite recording is of Dylan Thomas reading Christopher Marlowe, the > speech at the end of Faust: "Ah, Faustus, now hast thou but no > bare hour to > live..." From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 5 21:21:43 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:21:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] reviews References: <3.0.3.16.20020921143423.2cb7deec@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <044901c26cd6$bbe2cf80$774cfea9@j1c1k6> From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 5 21:36:15 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:36:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets References: <20020924151551.30699.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04d901c26cd8$c324cda0$774cfea9@j1c1k6> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 11:15 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Poets Jim raises an interesting question. Who are the neglected poets? Or, I guess a better question would be who are the poets outside the limelight whom no one reads and perhaps who we as readers of poetry should pay more attention to? As an academic (I realize the implications), I know that my exposure to poetry has largely been cannonical. However, I have made a conscious effort to read poets never mentioned in any of my classes: Robinson Jeffers is a prime example. But, even Jeffers is a "big poet," so to speak. I wonder who I'm missing--I know there's a lot out there. I've been out of town for a while and am only just now trying to catch up. Just want to briefly respond to the above. I say the question is not what poets are being neglected, but what SCHOOLS OF POETRY are being neglected. Actually, that's the first question. Once we ascertain what schools of poetry are out there, we can get down to deciding which members of them are neglected. But I seem about the only one interested in working out what schools of poetry there are. And I'm not doing a good job of it, because I was invited long ago to revise me short piece on schools of poetry at About Poetry, and still haven't gotten around to even starting to do so. Maybe this post will nudge me a little closer to doing so before Xmas. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 5 21:40:18 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:40:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Schools of Poetry References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86EFD@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <04eb01c26cd9$5424dc00$774cfea9@j1c1k6> Oh, I forgot to say in the post I just sent off what my definition of a neglected school of poetry is. It's simple: any school of poetry practiced by at least a few dozen poets and readily distinguishable from all other schools of poetry that is not mentioned in any anthology in wide use in colleges and high schools, or on PBS, or in "serious" BigCirc magazines like the Atlantic. --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Oct 5 21:52:07 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 20:52:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Schools of Poetry Message-ID: <200210060150.g961owbE058823@mx7.mx.voyager.net> >Oh, I forgot to say in the post I just sent off what my definition of a >neglected school of poetry is. It's simple: any school of poetry practiced >by at least a few dozen poets and readily distinguishable from all other >schools of poetry that is not mentioned in any anthology in wide use in >colleges and high schools, or on PBS, or in "serious" BigCirc magazines like >the Atlantic. > >--Bob G. > Years ago I was on a panel of judges for a local poetry contest. The submission pile included a number of semi-literate poems done in crude handwriting, many of which didn't make much sense, though it didn't seem like classic surrealism. More like dementia. In fact, it was. We learned later that a nursing home had made submitting to our contest one of their therapy projects. I'm pretty sure there were about 12 such submissions, and I'd say they were readily distinguishable from all other schools of poetry. Sadly, none of the entrants won the contest, and so naturally they never appeared in The Atlantic or on Bill Moyers. So I hereby declare the Dementia School of Poetics. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 5 21:50:59 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 21:50:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poems by others: Alan Sondheim, "out of nowhere" (Rsgwynn1@cs.com) References: <001f01c26453$7aeb9d80$6a864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <053801c26cda$d2543700$774cfea9@j1c1k6> I don't always like the interesting Sondheim's work, but I DID quite like the one with the a's. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 5 22:01:47 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:01:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: quote from Gould References: <003501c264b5$c38c3880$553ffea9@y9fru> Message-ID: <057001c26cdc$5481e8c0$774cfea9@j1c1k6> "The purpose of art is not the release of a momentary ejection of adrenaline but is, rather, the gradual, lifelong construction of a state of wonder and serenity." --Glenn Gould May we be spared those who would tell us the purpose of art in all circumstances, for all times, for all people I prefer: Let us understand that the partial truths revealed by those would would tell us the purpose of art in all circumstances, for all times, for all people, are often of more value than the unobjectionably-put opinions on art of those who would never dream of telling anyone what the purpose of art in all circumstances, for all times, for all people, is. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 5 22:23:32 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:23:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Schools of Poetry References: <200210060150.g961owbE058823@mx7.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <001c01c26cdf$5e1a8ba0$774cfea9@j1c1k6> > >Oh, I forgot to say in the post I just sent off what my definition of a > >neglected school of poetry is. It's simple: any school of poetry practiced > >by at least a few dozen poets and readily distinguishable from all other > >schools of poetry that is not mentioned in any anthology in wide use in > >colleges and high schools, or on PBS, or in "serious" BigCirc magazines like > >the Atlantic. > > > >--Bob G. > > > > Years ago I was on a panel of judges for a local poetry contest. The > submission pile included a number of semi-literate poems done in crude > handwriting, many of which didn't make much sense, though it didn't seem > like classic surrealism. More like dementia. In fact, it was. We learned > later that a nursing home had made submitting to our contest one of their > therapy projects. > > I'm pretty sure there were about 12 such submissions, and I'd say they were > readily distinguishable from all other schools of poetry. Sadly, none of > the entrants won the contest, and so naturally they never appeared in The > Atlantic or on Bill Moyers. > > So I hereby declare the Dementia School of Poetics. Sounds good to me, David. A list that contained a few schools that most people would not take seriously would be much better than no list, or a list that just named the kinds of poetry that the people at the NY Times know about--or, I should say, that the professors the people at the NY TImes consult know about. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 5 22:46:00 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:46:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Amiri Baraka, "The Turncoat" References: <000001c2695c$5b3ac0c0$46d1d23f@aoidos> Message-ID: <015501c26ce2$81979980$774cfea9@j1c1k6> > Baraka is primarily a performance poet. While many of his poems work on > the page ("A New Reality is Better than a New Movie," "Black Art"), the > power of the work is in the way it's performed. His hands thumping a > rhythm on the podium and, above all else, the voice. Silently reading > the NJ poem and then, on that basis, comparing Baraka to Yeats, Pound, > or some other page poet is comparing apples and oranges. > > While Yeats and Pound were no slouches in reading their own poems, there > is no doubt who would come off as the better poet following a > performance by Baraka. > > Erik Pihel Good point. But I think it would be absurd to judge between Yeats or Pound and Baraka on the basis of their performance skills only. I also suspect that if both poets were performed by the same excellent performer of others' poetry, Yeats or Pound would seem vastly better. --Bob G. From Cadaly at aol.com Sat Oct 5 23:08:00 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 23:08:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Schools of Poetry Message-ID: I don't know if I agree -- I would think that those outside schools of poetry -- whether the "schools" themselves neglected or not -- are most likely to be overlooked, and we can see that this separation is most likely to be physical -- location, sexual preference, gender, death -- although it can also be stylistic, of influence, development, etc. my vote for forgotten poetry schools are west coast school surrealists #1 (while Andrei Codrescu lived here) and west coast school surrealist #2 (students of Lamantia). Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Oct 6 03:08:43 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 15:08:43 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: quote from Gould References: <003501c264b5$c38c3880$553ffea9@y9fru> <057001c26cdc$5481e8c0$774cfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <01fd01c26d07$cede77c0$64864cca@JROSS2> Or what the purpose of any art is for anyone at any time in any place. Zan I prefer: Let us understand that the partial truths revealed by those would would tell us the purpose of art in all circumstances, for all times, for all people, are often of more value than the unobjectionably-put opinions on art of those who would never dream of telling anyone what the purpose of art in all circumstances, for all times, for all people, is. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Oct 6 03:06:44 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 15:06:44 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Schools of Poetry References: <200210060150.g961owbE058823@mx7.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <01fc01c26d07$cde571c0$64864cca@JROSS2> David wrote: "So I hereby declare the Dementia School of Poetics." I may just join that one ... Zan From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 6 06:35:31 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 06:35:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Schools of Poetry References: Message-ID: <004001c26d24$18dbbf60$a3cafea9@j1c1k6> I don't know if I agree -- I would think that those outside schools of poetry -- whether the "schools" themselves neglected or not -- are most likely to be overlooked, Well, if we got together a truly exhaustive or near-exhaustive list of schools, we'd have to catch just about everyone. Everyone is, of course, a school unto himself, but no one is so different as to not fit into some reasonably defined school or another. I do agree, however, that even with a full list of schools, we would miss good poets. My point is that we would not miss near so many. And we can see that this separation is most likely to be physical -- location, sexual preference, gender, death -- although it can also be stylistic, of influence, development, etc. A proper definition of each school--by what the poets in it concretely do on the page and/or whatever their equivalent thereof (e.g., performance space) is--should get around most of this. And I believe the people in an obscure school, given even the small recognition of a name, might try harder to uncover the elusive members of their school than they do now. Just knowing there are others doing what they do would have to be a morale-booster, aside from that. Catherine continues: "my vote for forgotten poetry schools are west coast school surrealists #1 (while Andrei Codrescu lived here) and west coast school surrealist #2 (students of Lamantia)." Wull, them's sub-schools--but I'm for breaking schools down, too--eventually. Thanks for the response. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Poemlady at cox.net Sun Oct 6 08:26:04 2002 From: Poemlady at cox.net (Poemlady) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 08:26:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bly and Barks References: Message-ID: <002101c26d33$8a831000$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net> I saw them do a presentation on ecstasy in poetry at the Dodge Festival. Many of the featured poets used the podium as a political soapbox, most of them anti-war. The duo seemed well-suited for each other, obviously had a friendship, and bantered quite a bit. Barks is a very laid-back guy, and Bly plays the jokester. I don't think it was one pushing the other around, but a natural play off their personalities in a friendship that seemed well-rooted and comfortable. The informational value of the presentation they gave was great! Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "jason huff" To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 1:42 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Bly and Barks > With all the talk of performance poetry, I thought I'd ask if anyone has > seen Robert Bly and Coleman Barks read. They were in Houston this past > Monday and I went to see them. They had a cellist and someone else playing > along with them. I don't know what the second instrument was. Some sort of > guitar-like instrument from the middle east. It was interesting to hear the > music playing along with the poetry. It made it an entertaining reading. I > didn't really like the original work by Bly and Barks (their translation of > Rumi was great), but the music made that part enjoyable, even if the poetry > wasn't so great. They did go on for a while. about 2 hours. I thought it was > a little long. I also found that I didn't get most of the jokes (apparently > the audience did, because there was a lot of laughter). Bly had to keep > going back and pointing out what he said was a joke, so I don't feel it was > me. Had to be his jokes. Bly took some time to throw out a political sermon. > He just can't understand why we aren't protesting this upcoming war with > Iraq the way they did during Viet Nam. And then a few cheap insults thrown > and Bush and he moved on (and no I'm not trying to start a political > conversation, I'm just telling you about the reading). Bly was the dominant > of the two. He sort of pushed Barks around. At least that's how it looked to > me. But in the end, it was an enjoyable performance, and they drew one of > the biggest crowds I've seen for a poetry reading (only the Billy Collins > reading last year compares to in size). > > jason > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 6 11:33:11 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 11:33:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F28@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <013b01c26d4d$ae51c8e0$a3cafea9@j1c1k6> > To switch threads some, I'd love to see some discussion on the differences > between page poetry and oral poetry--yes, I know that the terms & concepts > themselves are contested--and how we deal with them as readers (silent and > not), teachers, critics, etc. Just to start, I would say there is a difference between page poetry and oral poetry, but also between oral poetry (mouth only) and performance poetry (mouth and body and, perhaps, props). There is also sound poetry, which is a fourth kind of poetry. I contend that neither oral poetry nor performance poetry is necessarily sound poetry, but all of this is in dispute--when discussed at all. Most oral poetry is to sound poetry what a calligraphically inscribe poem is to visual poetry. In my view. And there is a lot of work called sound poetry that, as far as I'm concerned, is too asemantic to count as poetry. I call it textual music. Jack Foley probably knows as much about all this as anyone. Dunno whether he's in our group, though. I don't feel I know much about sound poetry, at all. --Bob G. From hruggier at localnet.com Sun Oct 6 12:18:40 2002 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 12:18:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F28@mail.ripon.edu> <013b01c26d4d$ae51c8e0$a3cafea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DA06260.F5339699@localnet.com> Some interesting categories but I need more description of each - if I could head you now . . . . Do you mean Jackson MacLow as a sound poet; or Michael Basinski's work? Bob Grumman wrote: > > To switch threads some, I'd love to see some discussion on the differences > > between page poetry and oral poetry--yes, I know that the terms & concepts > > themselves are contested--and how we deal with them as readers (silent and > > not), teachers, critics, etc. > > Just to start, I would say there is a difference between page poetry and > oral poetry, but also between oral poetry (mouth only) and performance > poetry (mouth and body and, perhaps, props). There is also sound poetry, > which is a fourth kind of poetry. I contend that neither oral poetry nor > performance poetry is necessarily sound poetry, but all of this is in > dispute--when discussed at all. > > Most oral poetry is to sound poetry what a calligraphically inscribe poem is > to visual poetry. > > In my view. And there is a lot of work called sound poetry that, as far as > I'm concerned, is too asemantic to count as poetry. I call it textual > music. > > Jack Foley probably knows as much about all this as anyone. Dunno whether > he's in our group, though. I don't feel I know much about sound poetry, at > all. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 6 12:38:24 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 11:38:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance Message-ID: <200210061637.g96GbFjm068803@mx2.mx.voyager.net> >It also seems to me that Robert Pinsky is correct when he argues for people >other than the poet reading and memorizing the poem. Quite a number of >poems -- "The Waking" by Roethke, for example -- do not open themselves up >for the instantaneous understanding that a "performance" poet must achieve. > > >In performance, the poet embodies the text, so much so that frequently the >problem of "identity politics" arises. I remember watching a performance by >such a poet whose major claim to skill was that he had authentically worked >in an assembly line and so was qualified to address the oppression of >workers through his verse. [And no, he was not Philip Levine.] Existential >authenticity becomes one of the central criteria for success as a >performance poet: writers author the text through performative norms, such >as body language, physical attire, facial expression, or intonation. All >these elements disappear when there is only the text on the page that a >reader can see, often with dispiriting results. > >I wonder to what degree the developments of audio and video media have >affected what is acceptable as poetry. Indeed, to what degree has internet >access led to a broadening of the idea of what poetry is? > >Michael Karl (Ritchie) > I'd agree with much of the above. But I'd put things in a more positive tone, I guess. Where Michael seems to view oral performance with some suspicion, as a possible dilution of the text's integrity or a way for inferior poems to be presented successfully, I see and celebrate various explorations in oral performance as a widening of possibilities. Like many poets my age, I was raised on close textual readings of Pope and Auden, and for a long time equated poetic quality mostly with an ability to withstand close and silent reading. It took me years, for example, to come to the understanding that Langston Hughes is not just an entertaining simpleton, a good folk poet, but a good poet, period. He's different in kind from Milton, but so is Mozart distinct from Stravinsky. Yes, there are many poems I value whose full worth is difficult to gauge just from one hearing. But that sort of goodness certainly doesn't strike me anymore as automatically better than the pleasures (and depth) of a poet like Etheridge Knight. There are potential weak spots in any mode of poetry, I would say. Yes, in an oral culture there is a great tendency for bombast and sentimentalism to be warmly received, especially when the performance is skillful. Maya Angelou, after all, rakes in the big bucks year after year for her skill as performer more than for the quality of her poems. Yet I think it would be a mistake to hold the worst excesses of open-mike culture against the whole mode of oral poetry, especially since its history is so venerable, much older than the tradition that gave us Pope. Not that I'm accusing Michael of all the above; I'm just spinning on from his remarks about identity poetics and its too-often wretched performances. I can't view with great alarm the broadening definitions of what poetry is; but it's probably true that our critical resources have yet to catch up to the way poetry's been evolving lately. That may take a while, I'm guessing, and it may not involve the appearance of a new Northrop Frye or John Crowe Ransom. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From JforJames at aol.com Sun Oct 6 12:54:40 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:54:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: quote from Gould Message-ID: <27.2e73899f.2ad1c4d0@aol.com> In a message dated 10/6/02 3:16:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ganesha at dezzanet.net.au writes: > Or what the purpose of any art is for anyone at any time in any place. > > Zan > > I prefer: Let us understand that > the partial truths revealed by > those would would tell us the > purpose of art > in all circumstances, > for all times, for all people, > are often of more value > than the unobjectionably-put > opinions on art of those who would > never dream of telling anyone > what the purpose of art > in all circumstances, > for all times, for all people, > is. > > > --Bob G. I disagree strongly. Give me a bald-faced pronouncement any day over a wishy-washy, hedging statement re art/poetics. We learn more from the former even if it is deeply flawed or overreaching as it make its case. I'd go as far as to say it's the artist's duty to be bold and definitive in his view of what art is. The artist needn't take the critic's role: pointing out exceptions, undermining the logic of a proposition, raising questions regarding inherent biases, etc.... an artist's statement should never hedge nor equivocate; and as Whitman reminded us, there is always time to contradict oneself, even by one's very acts/art. Lastly, manifestoes, grand statements, etc., are perhaps the most vivid and enjoyable aspect of reading about art. Goethe was no slouch when it came to aphoristic utterance, so I'll twist somewhat his famous last words: "More bite!" From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 6 13:02:21 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 12:02:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Manifest Oh Message-ID: <200210061701.g96H1B1U074928@mx10.mx.voyager.net> I'd disagree strongly with what you write, Jim, but by the time I finished qualifying and equivocating, you might not notice. . . . Not sure what poetry "needs," myself, or what an artist's "duty" should be, but I'm open to options. Guess I'd revise the Goethe further: "More!" ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= >I disagree strongly. Give me a bald-faced >pronouncement any day over a wishy-washy, >hedging statement re art/poetics. >We learn more from the former even >if it is deeply flawed or overreaching as it >make its case. I'd go as far as to say it's >the artist's duty to be bold and definitive >in his view of what art is. The artist needn't >take the critic's role: pointing out exceptions, >undermining the logic of a proposition, raising >questions regarding inherent biases, etc.... >an artist's statement should never hedge nor equivocate; >and as Whitman reminded us, there is always time >to contradict oneself, even by one's very acts/art. >Lastly, manifestoes, grand statements, etc., >are perhaps the most vivid and enjoyable >aspect of reading about art. Goethe was >no slouch when it came to aphoristic utterance, >so I'll twist somewhat his famous last words: "More bite!" >_______________________________________________ From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu Sun Oct 6 14:23:56 2002 From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 13:23:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fall/Winter 2002-2003 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ Message-ID: NEWS RELEASE: MONDAY, OCTOBER 7, 2002 Announcement: Publication of the Fall/Winter 2002-2003 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_. The Fall/Winter 2002-2003 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ is now available at the following url: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ The featured poets for the Fall/Winter 2002-2003 issue are David Graham and Kate Sontag. Other poets include Kimberly Blaeser, Billy Collins, Barbara Crooker, Michael Dobberstein, Carol Frost, Brendan Galvin, Pamela Gemin, Bernhard Hillila, Colette Inez, Nathan S. Jones, William Matthews, Rick Mulkey, Alicia Ostriker, Stanley Plumly, and Larry Thomas. The new issue also contains the following: essays by David Graham, Andrew Mulvania, and Kate Sontag on contemporary confessional and autobiographical poetry; Catherine Daly's review of poetry collections by Susan Mitchell and Carol Frost; a review/essay on _After Confession: Autobiography as Poetry_; Gregg Hertzlieb's commentary on the cover art by Timothy Van Laar. As always, the new issue includes a list of recently received and recommended books of poetry or poetics, as well as guidelines for submissions. Submissions and review copies of books are always welcome. All past issues of VPR and a complete archive of poems, essays, interviews, reviews, and commentary on art remain available for reading. -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- --- End Forwarded Message --- -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 6 15:43:33 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 14:43:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Baraka/Jones Message-ID: <200210061942.g96JgN0o024957@mx10.mx.voyager.net> The recent flap sent me, along with others, back to the work of Amiri Baraka's previous incarnation, LeRoi Jones. You'd often not recognize their kinship, would you? The pressures. (Love twists the young man. Having seen it only once. He expected it to be, as the orange flower leather of the poet's book. He expected less hurt, a lyric. And not the slow effortless pain as a new dripping sun pushes up out of our river.) And having seen it, refuses to inhale. "It was a green mist, seemed to lift and choke the town." --LeRoi Jones. *The Dead Lecturer*. 1964. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 6 16:03:34 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:03:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F28@mail.ripon.edu> <013b01c26d4d$ae51c8e0$a3cafea9@j1c1k6> <3DA06260.F5339699@localnet.com> Message-ID: <017701c26d73$74ada980$a3cafea9@j1c1k6> > Some interesting categories but I need more description of each - if I could > head you now . . . . > Do you mean Jackson MacLow as a sound poet; or Michael Basinski's work? > Bob Grumman wrote: Frankly, I don't know. Mike is definitely a performance poet--but is probably a sound poet, as well. I haven't had a chance to really analyze the poetry he performs properly to categorize it in more detail, though. I know Mac Low's work on paper only, so don't feel competent to say much about it. As I said in my post, I really don't know much about sound poetry. I only know that I refuse to consider chants of various word-like sounds but no semantic meaning, denotative or connotative, not to be poetry--however interesting it may be as a kind of music. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 6 16:16:20 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:16:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: quote from Gould References: <27.2e73899f.2ad1c4d0@aol.com> Message-ID: <018001c26d75$3c7e3320$a3cafea9@j1c1k6> > > Or what the purpose of any art is for anyone at any time in any place. > > > > Zan > > > > I prefer: Let us understand that > > the partial truths revealed by > > those would would tell us the > > purpose of art > > in all circumstances, > > for all times, for all people, > > are often of more value > > than the unobjectionably-put > > opinions on art of those who would > > never dream of telling anyone > > what the purpose of art > > in all circumstances, > > for all times, for all people, > > is. > > > > > > --Bob G. > I disagree strongly. It sounds to me like you mostly agreed--with what I said, at any rate. > Give me a bald-faced > pronouncement any day over a wishy-washy, > hedging statement re art/poetics. > We learn more from the former even > if it is deeply flawed or overreaching as it > make its case. I'd go as far as to say it's > the artist's duty to be bold and definitive > in his view of what art is. The artist needn't > take the critic's role: pointing out exceptions, > undermining the logic of a proposition, raising > questions regarding inherent biases, etc.... > an artist's statement should never hedge nor equivocate; I don't agree there. > and as Whitman reminded us, there is always time > to contradict oneself, even by one's very acts/art. > Lastly, manifestoes, grand statements, etc., > are perhaps the most vivid and enjoyable > aspect of reading about art. Goethe was > no slouch when it came to aphoristic utterance, > so I'll twist somewhat his famous last words: "More bite!" I'll just end with the proposition that a grand statement need not be idiotically narrow and dogmatic. Not that Gould's was. --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Oct 6 16:02:46 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:02:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Baraka/Jones In-Reply-To: <200210061942.g96JgN0o024957@mx10.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: I think we'd all do well to rename ourselves every ten years or so, as some of the ancient Chinese poets did every *ten* years, as I recall reading somewhere. Think how liberating that would be. Or like Pessoa and Judson Crews we could give names to *all* our inner selves, and let them have their says. Hal "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { The recent flap sent me, along with others, back to the work of Amiri { Baraka's previous incarnation, LeRoi Jones. You'd often not recognize their { kinship, would you? { { The pressures. { { (Love twists { the young man. Having seen it { only once. He expected it { to be, as the orange flower { leather of the poet's book. { He expected { less hurt, a lyric. And not { the slow effortless pain { as a new dripping sun pushes { up out of our river.) { And { having seen it, refuses { to inhale. "It was a { green mist, seemed { to lift and choke { the town." { { --LeRoi Jones. *The Dead Lecturer*. 1964. { { ======================================== { David Graham { Professor of English, Ripon College { grahamd at ripon.edu { Home Page: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html { Poetry Library: { http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html { { "We're writing the book on quality: personal, { undergraduate education." { Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu { ======================================= { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 6 16:48:33 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 15:48:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Renaming Ourselves Message-ID: <200210062047.g96KlNJf043417@mx4.mx.voyager.net> >I think we'd all do well to rename ourselves every ten >years or so, as some of the ancient Chinese poets did >every *ten* years, as I recall reading somewhere. . . . >Hal My True Blue Name --*I ain't good lookin', baby, but I'm someone's sweet angel child* Willie McTell Maybe I need a blues or jazz name instead of this phonebook moniker no one will remember next day in the bookstore, looking halfheartedly for that book, you know, the one with dogs in the title, and the author was Doug or Donald something. . . . I've always thought of myself as Lightnin', actually, and tried when young to interest my pals in a friendly nickname. No soap. Even the few who tried out Dave gradually migrated back to David, my coat-and-tie-, my report card name. But I wasn't asking the impossible-- even in my bluest fantasies I've never been Slim, didn't hanker to be Blind, wouldn't claim Muddy or Blues Boy on a bet. I've certainly never aspired to the regal, know better than to hope to be any Count, Duke, or King. My belly's everything but lead. But if Lightnin' won't fly, what about Long Gone, why not Buddy or Slick? I'd even settle for Dogwalker G. or Backwater Dave. I just want you to nod lazy agreement when I amble on stage in my shades and crumpled old hat, I want to wake up in the morning with a handful of gimme and a mouthful of much obliged, I want to linger like smoke in smoky air, my weathered voice telling Tuesday to Monday's bad dream--and through it all I'm Magic, I'm Big, I'm your own precious Sonny Boy. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= "What does a poet need an unlisted > number for?" > --George Costanza >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > >{ The recent flap sent me, along with others, back to the work of Amiri >{ Baraka's previous incarnation, LeRoi Jones. You'd often not recognize their >{ kinship, would you? >{ >{ The pressures. >{ >{ (Love twists >{ the young man. Having seen it >{ only once. He expected it >{ to be, as the orange flower >{ leather of the poet's book. >{ He expected >{ less hurt, a lyric. And not >{ the slow effortless pain >{ as a new dripping sun pushes >{ up out of our river.) >{ And >{ having seen it, refuses >{ to inhale. "It was a >{ green mist, seemed >{ to lift and choke >{ the town." >{ >{ --LeRoi Jones. *The Dead Lecturer*. 1964. >{ >{ ======================================== >{ David Graham >{ Professor of English, Ripon College >{ grahamd at ripon.edu >{ Home Page: >{ http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >{ Poetry Library: >{ http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >{ >{ "We're writing the book on quality: personal, >{ undergraduate education." >{ Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu >{ ======================================= >{ >{ _______________________________________________ >{ New-Poetry mailing list >{ New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >{ http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com Sun Oct 6 17:59:21 2002 From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper) Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 21:59:21 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Renaming Ourselves Message-ID: Now what you've written below David (if I may call you David?) is SOME POEM! Thanks for the read! WIll I stop smiling for the rest of the day? I doubt it! Bob Cooper (Who wishes he were named after Bob Cooper - but who's got at least one of his CDs!) >From: "David Graham" >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Renaming Ourselves >Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 15:48:33 -0500 > > >I think we'd all do well to rename ourselves every ten > >years or so, as some of the ancient Chinese poets did > >every *ten* years, as I recall reading somewhere. >. . . > >Hal > >My True Blue Name > > --*I ain't good lookin', baby, but I'm someone's sweet angel child* > Willie McTell > >Maybe I need a blues or jazz name >instead of this phonebook moniker >no one will remember next day >in the bookstore, looking halfheartedly >for that book, you know, the one >with dogs in the title, and the author >was Doug or Donald something. . . . > >I've always thought of myself as Lightnin', >actually, and tried when young >to interest my pals in a friendly nickname. >No soap. Even the few who tried out Dave >gradually migrated back to David, >my coat-and-tie-, my report card name. >But I wasn't asking the impossible-- >even in my bluest fantasies I've never >been Slim, didn't hanker to be Blind, >wouldn't claim Muddy or Blues Boy >on a bet. I've certainly never aspired >to the regal, know better than to hope >to be any Count, Duke, or King. >My belly's everything but lead. > >But if Lightnin' won't fly, what about >Long Gone, why not Buddy or Slick? >I'd even settle for Dogwalker G. >or Backwater Dave. I just want >you to nod lazy agreement >when I amble on stage in my shades >and crumpled old hat, I want to wake up >in the morning with a handful of gimme >and a mouthful of much obliged, >I want to linger like smoke in smoky air, >my weathered voice telling Tuesday >to Monday's bad dream--and through it all >I'm Magic, I'm Big, I'm your own >precious Sonny Boy. > >======================================== >David Graham >Professor of English, Ripon College >grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, >undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu >======================================= > >"What does a poet need an unlisted > > number for?" > > --George Costanza > >Halvard Johnson > >=============== > >email: halvard at earthlink.net > >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > > > > > >{ The recent flap sent me, along with others, back to the work of >Amiri > >{ Baraka's previous incarnation, LeRoi Jones. You'd often not >recognize their > >{ kinship, would you? > >{ > >{ The pressures. > >{ > >{ (Love twists > >{ the young man. Having seen it > >{ only once. He expected it > >{ to be, as the orange flower > >{ leather of the poet's book. > >{ He expected > >{ less hurt, a lyric. And not > >{ the slow effortless pain > >{ as a new dripping sun pushes > >{ up out of our river.) > >{ And > >{ having seen it, refuses > >{ to inhale. "It was a > >{ green mist, seemed > >{ to lift and choke > >{ the town." > >{ > >{ --LeRoi Jones. *The Dead Lecturer*. 1964. > >{ > >{ ======================================== > >{ David Graham > >{ Professor of English, Ripon College > >{ grahamd at ripon.edu > >{ Home Page: > >{ http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > >{ Poetry Library: > >{ http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > >{ > >{ "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > >{ undergraduate education." > >{ Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > >{ ======================================= > >{ > >{ _______________________________________________ > >{ New-Poetry mailing list > >{ New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >{ http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Sun Oct 6 18:39:18 2002 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (cvoisine at nmsu.edu) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:39:18 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] schools of poetry In-Reply-To: <200210060306.g96362603229@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200210060306.g96362603229@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <1033943958.3da0bb9661899@webmail.nmsu.edu> I am teaching a graduate class on twentieth century schools of poetry now and the students are loving it. It seems that many of them wereeen't even sure what moodernism was, they felt they understood literature up to World War I and afterward it was very murky. Stein wasn't even that familiar to them. But their favorites (I know some of them weren't American but who could resist) were the futurists and the Dadaists,they loved the Objectivists and the New York School (that was last week). From Arielpf123 at aol.com Sun Oct 6 18:28:52 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 18:28:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Schools of Poetry Message-ID: <41.24a410d0.2ad21324@aol.com> In a message dated 10/6/02 3:16:02 AM, ganesha at dezzanet.net.au writes: << David wrote: "So I hereby declare the Dementia School of Poetics." I may just join that one ... Zan >> I already did! patf From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Oct 6 19:12:55 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 19:12:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] schools of poetry Message-ID: <153.156013f6.2ad21d77@cs.com> In a message dated 10/6/2002 5:28:04 PM Central Daylight Time, cvoisine at nmsu.edu writes: > Stein wasn't even that familiar to them. But their > favorites (I know some of them weren't American but who could resist) were > the > futurists and the Dadaists,they loved the Objectivists and the New York > School > (that was last week). And what is the name of your institution? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reneea at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 6 19:23:12 2002 From: reneea at bellatlantic.net (Renee Ashley) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 19:23:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Neglected Schools of Poetry References: <41.24a410d0.2ad21324@aol.com> Message-ID: <002601c26d8f$57b92ea0$669f598a@oemcomputer> Ah, but some of us were drafted... Renee ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Neglected Schools of Poetry > > In a message dated 10/6/02 3:16:02 AM, ganesha at dezzanet.net.au writes: > > << David wrote: > > "So I hereby declare the Dementia School of Poetics." > > > > I may just join that one ... > > > Zan >> > > I already did! > > patf > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Sun Oct 6 19:51:02 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 19:51:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Kimiko Hahn Message-ID: <6e.2403721a.2ad22666@aol.com> http://www.nortonpoets.com ----------- **New this month** Kimiko Hahn, THE ARTIST'S DAUGHTER And two fabulous anthologies, DEAR EDITOR: A History of Poetry in Letters POETRY IN MOTION FROM COAST TO COAST: 120 Poems from the Subways and Buses **New in the Poet's Workshop ** "Like Lavrinia" by Kimiko Hahn **Poem of the Month: "In Childhood" by Kimiko Hahn** things don't die or remain damaged but return: stumps grow back hands, a head reconnects to a neck, a whole corpse rises blushing and newly elastic. Later this vision is not True: the grandmother remains dead not hibernating in a wolf's belly. Or the blue parakeet does not return from the little grave in the fern garden though one may wake in the morning thinking mother's call is the bird. Or maybe the bird is with grandmother inside light. Or grandmother was the bird and is now the dog gnawing on the chair leg. Where do the gone things go when the child is old enough to walk herself to school, her playmates already pumping so high the swing hiccups? ? 2002 by Kimiko Hahn From JforJames at aol.com Sun Oct 6 19:57:32 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 19:57:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Cobbing Message-ID: <113.18ae7120.2ad227ec@aol.com> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:30:49 GMT From: Richard Caddel there will be lots of tributes to bob cobbing over the coming weeks, no doubt - listmembers might like to know that there's a growing batch at: http://www.the-lollipop.co.uk - and that there'll be a memorial reading for bob at the morden tower, west walls, newcastle: http://www.mordentower.com/ - on 10th october (national poetry day, no less) at 8.00pm rc From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Sun Oct 6 22:28:24 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 22:28:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] reading wednesday Message-ID: <38.2f3a143e.2ad24b48@aol.com> Reading! Wednesday, October 9th, 2002 - 7pm at the beautiful Westfield Atheneum 6 Elm Street, Westfield, MA Featuring Margaret Szumowski, Stephen Sossaman and Jeffrey Levine Refreshments and book-signing to follow -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Oct 6 23:15:08 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:15:08 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: quote from Gould References: <27.2e73899f.2ad1c4d0@aol.com> Message-ID: <002701c26daf$bfac4e00$60864cca@JROSS2> Pretty much what I was saying there, Bob ... but then, no one will ever accuse you of being wishy-washy, even if you go off half-cocked, eh? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 12:54 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: quote from Gould > In a message dated 10/6/02 3:16:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > ganesha at dezzanet.net.au writes: > > > Or what the purpose of any art is for anyone at any time in any place. > > > > Zan > > > > I prefer: Let us understand that > > the partial truths revealed by > > those would would tell us the > > purpose of art > > in all circumstances, > > for all times, for all people, > > are often of more value > > than the unobjectionably-put > > opinions on art of those who would > > never dream of telling anyone > > what the purpose of art > > in all circumstances, > > for all times, for all people, > > is. > > > > > > --Bob G. > I disagree strongly. Give me a bald-faced > pronouncement any day over a wishy-washy, > hedging statement re art/poetics. > We learn more from the former even > if it is deeply flawed or overreaching as it > make its case. I'd go as far as to say it's > the artist's duty to be bold and definitive > in his view of what art is. The artist needn't > take the critic's role: pointing out exceptions, > undermining the logic of a proposition, raising > questions regarding inherent biases, etc.... > an artist's statement should never hedge nor equivocate; > and as Whitman reminded us, there is always time > to contradict oneself, even by one's very acts/art. > Lastly, manifestoes, grand statements, etc., > are perhaps the most vivid and enjoyable > aspect of reading about art. Goethe was > no slouch when it came to aphoristic utterance, > so I'll twist somewhat his famous last words: "More bite!" > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Oct 6 23:16:22 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 11:16:22 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: quote from Gould References: <27.2e73899f.2ad1c4d0@aol.com> Message-ID: <002b01c26daf$ecfbe230$60864cca@JROSS2> Ooops!! Sorry -- that was intended for JforJames. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 12:54 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: quote from Gould > In a message dated 10/6/02 3:16:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > ganesha at dezzanet.net.au writes: > > > Or what the purpose of any art is for anyone at any time in any place. > > > > Zan > > > > I prefer: Let us understand that > > the partial truths revealed by > > those would would tell us the > > purpose of art > > in all circumstances, > > for all times, for all people, > > are often of more value > > than the unobjectionably-put > > opinions on art of those who would > > never dream of telling anyone > > what the purpose of art > > in all circumstances, > > for all times, for all people, > > is. > > > > > > --Bob G. > I disagree strongly. Give me a bald-faced > pronouncement any day over a wishy-washy, > hedging statement re art/poetics. > We learn more from the former even > if it is deeply flawed or overreaching as it > make its case. I'd go as far as to say it's > the artist's duty to be bold and definitive > in his view of what art is. The artist needn't > take the critic's role: pointing out exceptions, > undermining the logic of a proposition, raising > questions regarding inherent biases, etc.... > an artist's statement should never hedge nor equivocate; > and as Whitman reminded us, there is always time > to contradict oneself, even by one's very acts/art. > Lastly, manifestoes, grand statements, etc., > are perhaps the most vivid and enjoyable > aspect of reading about art. Goethe was > no slouch when it came to aphoristic utterance, > so I'll twist somewhat his famous last words: "More bite!" > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu Sun Oct 6 20:51:45 2002 From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 19:51:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance Poetry Message-ID: 7 October Monday Don't get me wrong. I have no problem with broadening the definition of poetry. The more possibilities for poetry there are, the better, as far as I am concerned. I wind up taking student poets down to the monthly Poetry Slam in Little Rock, and poetry readings have sprung up throughout this small-town of Russellville [a "dry" county] on a monthly basis at one of the local coffee houses. Most of the young people here love this kind of poetry, and I certainly enjoy hearing what they are writing. I was fortunate enough once not only to hear Etheridge Knight read, but also to visit with him afterwards. His poetry works both on the page and as an oral reading. I came to his work, however, from having read him first, and so I cannot really say what it is that makes his poems so successful both on the page as well as in performance. I regret that he is no longer alive, since his was a voice of conscience that could well be heard today. I have also read, heard, and seen Seiku Sundiata, and I greatly admire what he has done. You are right, however, that there are others whose work I find boring, mostly because the poetry really seems to be a stand-up comedy routine. Identity politics strikes me also as a dead end. When exactly do we reach across race or gender to recognize one another as all outlaws under the skin? Michael Karl (Ritchie) From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Oct 7 08:50:52 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 05:50:52 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RelativeLinks: Reviews, now online Message-ID: <3DA1832C.D88A4946@earthlink.net> Volume I of RelativeLinks is now online with reviews by Catherine Daly, Halvard Johnson, Helen Ruggieri, and Greg Simon. The poets reviewed are Rachel Levitsky, Beth Houston, Kim Addonizio, and Larry Eigner. RelativeLinks, a new review medium for poetry published exclusively online, is interested in reviews of single-author or collaborative collections of poetry presented as electronic chapbooks or in pdf format by publishers with editorial selection standards. We are not interested in samples of work on sites that exist to sell print publications, nor in work that exists on authors' promotional sites or homepages. We also welcome reviews of single-author collections that are archived electronically and no longer available in print. RelativeLinks will be cumulative, with new reviews added throughout the year. These will comprise Volume I and will be archived once a new publishing year (Volume II) begins. We see RelativeLinks as a service to poets, publishers, reviewers, and especially readers. Our fondest hope is that RelativeLinks will help expand readership of poetry online. For the current issue, further information, guidelines, and links to publishers, please visit the site at: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html Note: Please feel free to forward this notice to anyone who might be interested. From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Oct 7 09:18:31 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 09:18:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry In-Reply-To: <017701c26d73$74ada980$a3cafea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DA15167.20108.4C0F07@localhost> > > Bob Grumman wrote: > I only know that I refuse to consider chants of various word-like > sounds but > no semantic meaning, denotative or connotative, not to be poetry--however > interesting it may be as a kind of music.<< There was a guy at the Columbus, Ohio avant-garde conference this year who, at the open mike reading preceding the conference, performed a poem that consisted solely of "ah" in various inflections -- and you, Bob, entered the room with your entourage in the midst of that performance and became part of it, as you later said, as the speaker reacted in "ahs" to your entry and to your reaction to his reaction. You were at that conference as reluctant to say that that was NOT poetry, when I asked you if you thought it was, as you seem here and now to be eager to say that it could not have been. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Oct 7 10:17:17 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:17:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Blaise Cendrars, "The War in the Luxembourg" Message-ID: The War in the Luxembourg "One two, one two And everything will go just right . . ." They were singing A wounded soldier kept time with his crutch Beneath the bandage his eye The smile of the Luxembourg And the smoke from munitions factories Above the golden foliage Pale autumn summer's end You can't forget anything Only little children play war The Somme Verdun My big brother's in the Dardanelles It's so beautiful A rifle ME! Cries melodious voices Cries ME! The hands reach out I look like my daddy They have cannons too A little girl pretends she's the bicycle messenger A hobbyhorse wheels around In the basin the flotillas crisscross The Paris meridian is in the fountain's spray They mount an attack on the guard who has the only real saber And he dies Laughing The sun hangs above the potted palms A Military Medal They applaud the zeppelin going by over near the Eiffel Tower Then they raise the dead Everyone wants to be dead Or at least wounded RED Cut cut Cut off the arm cut off the head WHITE They give everything Red Cross BLUE The nurses are six years old Their hearts are deeply moved They take out their dolls' eyes to fix the blind I can see! I can see! The ones who were Turks are now stretcher-bearers And the ones who were dead revive to take part in the marvelous operation Now they're studying pictures in the newspaper Photographs They remember what they've seen in the movies It gets more serious They yell and whack better than Punch and Judy At the height of the fray Get 'em while they're hot Everyone flees toward the waffles They're ready. D It's five o'clock. R The gates are closing. E Time to go home. A It's evening. M They wait for the zeppelin that doesn't come E Tired R Gazing at the rocket stars S While the maid pulls you by the hand And the mommies stumble on the big shadow cars Tomorrow or another day There's a trench in the sandpile There's a little woods in the sandpile Towns A house The whole country The Sea And quite possibly the sea The improvised artillery moves around the imaginary barbed wire A kite quick as a fighter plane The trees shrink and the flowers fall out and turn like parachutes The three veins of the flag swell up at every blast of the wind howitzer You won't be swept away, little ark of sand Children more prodigal than the engineers They laugh and play tank poison gas submarine-facing-New-York-that- can't-get-through I'm Australian, you're black, he washes up to play the-life-of-the- English-soldier-in-Belgium Russian helmet 1 chocolate Legion of Honor is worth 3 uniform buttons There's the general going by A little girl says: I love my new American mommy very much And a little boy: Not Jules Verne but buy me another nice Sunday dispatch IN PARIS On Victory Day when the soldiers come home Everyone will want to see THEM The sun will open up early like a candy store on Valentine's Day It'll be springtime in the Bois de Boulogne or out toward Meudon All the cars will be perfumed and the poor horses will eat flowers In the windows the little girls orphaned by the war will all have beautiful patriotic dresses Photographers straddling the limbs of chestnut trees along the boulevards will aim their shutters There'll be a circle around the movie cameraman who'll swallow up the historic procession better than a sword swallower In the afternoon The wounded will hang their Medals on the Arch of Triumph and go home without limping Then That evening The place de l'Etoile will rise up into the sky The dome of the Invalides will sing out over Paris like an immense golden bell And the voices of a thousand newspapers will acclaim "La Marseillaise" Woman of France --Blaise Cendrars Paris, October 1916 fr. Blaise Cendrars, *Complete Poems* Univ. of California Press, 1992 tr. Ron Padgett Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Mon Oct 7 12:43:57 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 12:43:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry Message-ID: <73.2716e913.2ad313cd@aol.com> In a message dated 10/7/02 9:12:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > There was a guy at the Columbus, Ohio avant-garde conference this > year who, at the open mike reading preceding the conference, > performed a poem that consisted solely of "ah" in various inflections > -- and you, Bob, entered the room with your entourage in the midst of > that performance and became part of it, as you later said, as the > speaker reacted in "ahs" to your entry and to your reaction to his > reaction. You were at that conference as reluctant to say that that > was NOT poetry, when I asked you if you thought it was, as you seem > here and now to be eager to say that it could not have been. > Early dadaist Hugo Ball http://www.ex.ac.uk/drama/dada/page7.html was known for performances not unlike the one you describe. I think it fits within (but on the fringe of) the art we broadly call poetry. Finnegan From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Oct 7 13:17:45 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:17:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry In-Reply-To: <73.2716e913.2ad313cd@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DA18979.17708.1271D4A@localhost> > marcus: > > There was a guy at the Columbus, Ohio avant-garde conference this > > year who, at the open mike reading preceding the conference, > > performed a poem that consisted solely of "ah" in various inflections > > -- and you, Bob, entered the room with your entourage in the midst of > > that performance and became part of it, as you later said, as the > > speaker reacted in "ahs" to your entry and to your reaction to his > > reaction. You were at that conference as reluctant to say that that > > was NOT poetry, when I asked you if you thought it was, as you seem > > here and now to be eager to say that it could not have been. Finnegan: > Early dadaist Hugo Ball > http://www.ex.ac.uk/drama/dada/page7.html > was known for performances not unlike > the one you describe. > I think it fits within (but on the fringe of) > the art we broadly call poetry. Right -- I'm not arguing whether it is or isn't, but rather pointing out Mr Grumman's willingness to consider it poetry while participating in it but not so much when not. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Mon Oct 7 16:21:32 2002 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (NMSU) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:21:32 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] schools of poetry In-Reply-To: <200210051601.g95G12631855@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: the real fun of teaching this poetry movements course (here at New Mexico State University) has been that I had to bill it as a forms class to run it. But this has been a fantastic way to teach movements-from the inside out. We read few critics, mostly historical articles and a bunch of poems. Some letters and manifestos too. Very "in at the creation" in its focus. and they have to mimic the "form" which makes them ask all kinds of good questions of the material. I have learned so much teaching it this way. Connie Voisine From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Oct 7 15:36:06 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:36:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] schools of poetry References: Message-ID: <007a01c26e38$c7b447e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Connie -- this sounds like a great class to me. You should take a look at Bob Grumman's website for a very interesting study of certain experimental forms. Tad Richards SITUATIONS pub date October 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "NMSU" To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 4:21 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] schools of poetry > the real fun of teaching this poetry movements course (here at New Mexico > State University) has been that I had to bill it as a forms class to run it. > But this has been a fantastic way to teach movements-from the inside out. We > read few critics, mostly historical articles and a bunch of poems. Some > letters and manifestos too. Very "in at the creation" in its focus. and they > have to mimic the "form" which makes them ask all kinds of good questions of > the material. I have learned so much teaching it this way. > > Connie Voisine > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 7 15:53:50 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:53:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry References: <3DA15167.20108.4C0F07@localhost> Message-ID: <001f01c26e3b$43263b20$4828fea9@j1c1k6> > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > I only know that I refuse to consider chants of various word-like > > sounds but > > no semantic meaning, denotative or connotative, not to be poetry--however > > interesting it may be as a kind of music.<< > There was a guy at the Columbus, Ohio avant-garde conference this > year who, at the open mike reading preceding the conference, > performed a poem that consisted solely of "ah" in various inflections > -- and you, Bob, entered the room with your entourage in the midst of > that performance and became part of it, as you later said, as the > speaker reacted in "ahs" to your entry and to your reaction to his > reaction. You were at that conference as reluctant to say that that > was NOT poetry, when I asked you if you thought it was, as you seem > here and now to be eager to say that it could not have been. I was wondering when you'd start yipping at me again, Marcus. You're referring to Mike Basinski's performance piece. I did not hear the whole thing, but I'm familiar with what he does, which IS poetry. "Ah," for instance, IS a word. I don't remember discussing that particular poem with you; I though we got into something more general; but I'm very hazy about the who affair. Anyway, I've ALWAYS said that poetry should contain words or near-words whose specific meanings count. It comes up a good deal of late in visual works whose composers claim them to be poems even though some have nothing textual in them at all. The argument for their being poems is not entirely silly: it is that they are read like texts--that is, in lines that are read right to left and top down--and function narratively. I have continuing arguments with many of my fellow burstnorm poets about such matters. They call me visual poetry's Marcus Bales. --Barcus G. From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Oct 7 16:11:14 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 16:11:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry In-Reply-To: <001f01c26e3b$43263b20$4828fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DA1B222.8930.1C5F952@localhost> > > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > I only know that I refuse to consider chants of various word-like > > > sounds but > > > no semantic meaning, denotative or connotative, not to be > poetry--however > > > interesting it may be as a kind of music.<< Marcus: > > There was a guy at the Columbus, Ohio avant-garde conference this > > year who, at the open mike reading preceding the conference, > > performed a poem that consisted solely of "ah" in various inflections > > -- and you, Bob, entered the room with your entourage in the midst of > > that performance and became part of it, as you later said, as the > > speaker reacted in "ahs" to your entry and to your reaction to his > > reaction. You were at that conference as reluctant to say that that > > was NOT poetry, when I asked you if you thought it was, as you seem > > here and now to be eager to say that it could not have been. Grumman: > I was wondering when you'd start yipping at me again,...<< How about you forgbear to try to dismiss others with personal attack in whatever exchange follows, Bob? Grumman: > ... You're > referring to Mike Basinski's performance piece. I did not hear the whole > thing, but I'm familiar with what he does, which IS poetry. > "Ah," for instance, IS a word. ... Anyway, I've ALWAYS said that poetry should > contain words or near-words whose specific meanings count.< But the point of Brasinski's piece was that "Ah" doesn't have a specific meaning, if it had any point at all. How do you square that apparent intention with your assertion that poetry should contain "words ... whose specific meanings count."? I deleted "or near words" on purpose because such a caveat eviscerates any distinction you are trying to make. But perhaps that's your point, Bob -- perhaps you are once again trying to have it both ways: to claim both that a poem must have words and that it need not, that "near-words" are enough. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 7 16:09:16 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:09:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry References: <3DA18979.17708.1271D4A@localhost> Message-ID: <004e01c26e3d$6a11b140$4828fea9@j1c1k6> > > marcus: > > > There was a guy at the Columbus, Ohio avant-garde conference this > > > year who, at the open mike reading preceding the conference, > > > performed a poem that consisted solely of "ah" in various inflections > > > -- and you, Bob, entered the room with your entourage in the midst of > > > that performance and became part of it, as you later said, as the > > > speaker reacted in "ahs" to your entry and to your reaction to his > > > reaction. You were at that conference as reluctant to say that that > > > was NOT poetry, when I asked you if you thought it was, as you seem > > > here and now to be eager to say that it could not have been. > > Finnegan: > > Early dadaist Hugo Ball > > http://www.ex.ac.uk/drama/dada/page7.html > > was known for performances not unlike > > the one you describe. > > I think it fits within (but on the fringe of) > > the art we broadly call poetry. > > Right -- I'm not arguing whether it is or isn't, but rather pointing > out Mr Grumman's willingness to consider it poetry while > participating in it but not so much when not. > > Marcus Bales I was afraid that's what you might be doing, Marcus. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 7 16:14:15 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 16:14:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Schools of Poetry References: <73.2716e913.2ad313cd@aol.com> Message-ID: <007701c26e3e$1c296da0$4828fea9@j1c1k6> I'm curious: am I the only one at this newsgroup, or whatever it is, who believes that he is involved in one or more schools of poetry that are ignored by just about everyone but those in them? I do seem to be the only one here who ever complains that whole schools of poetry are being overlooked. --Bob G. From Arielpf123 at aol.com Mon Oct 7 17:17:16 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 17:17:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] schools of poetry Message-ID: In a message dated 10/7/02 3:34:38 PM, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: << Connie -- this sounds like a great class to me. You should take a look at Bob Grumman's website for a very interesting study of certain experimental forms. Tad Richards >> Also Al Filreis website.... patf From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 7 18:01:41 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 18:01:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry References: <3DA1B222.8930.1C5F952@localhost> Message-ID: <00e501c26e4d$1f198ae0$4828fea9@j1c1k6> > > > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > I only know that I refuse to consider chants of various word-like > > > > sounds but > > > > no semantic meaning, denotative or connotative, not to be > > poetry--however > > > > interesting it may be as a kind of music.<< > > Marcus: > > > There was a guy at the Columbus, Ohio avant-garde conference this > > > year who, at the open mike reading preceding the conference, > > > performed a poem that consisted solely of "ah" in various inflections > > > -- and you, Bob, entered the room with your entourage in the midst of > > > that performance and became part of it, as you later said, as the > > > speaker reacted in "ahs" to your entry and to your reaction to his > > > reaction. You were at that conference as reluctant to say that that > > > was NOT poetry, when I asked you if you thought it was, as you seem > > > here and now to be eager to say that it could not have been. > > Grumman: > > I was wondering when you'd start yipping at me again,...<< > > How about you forgbear to try to dismiss others with personal attack > in whatever exchange follows, Bob? Oh, come off it, Marcus. You're not THAT stuffy! I was only trying to be very slightly insulting in what I thought to be a friendly way. > Grumman: > > ... You're > > referring to Mike Basinski's performance piece. I did not hear the whole > > thing, but I'm familiar with what he does, which IS poetry. > > "Ah," for instance, IS a word. ... Anyway, I've ALWAYS said that poetry should > > contain words or near-words whose specific meanings count.< > > But the point of Basinski's piece was that "Ah" doesn't have a > specific meaning, if it had any point at all. I said I didn't witness his whole piece. But I suspect one of its points was to show the full range of meaning a simple, very primitive word can have. He did a lot more than emit ah's, by the way. > How do you square that > apparent intention with your assertion that poetry should contain > "words ... whose specific meanings count."? I simply say that in this case the meaning of "ah" counted very much. > I deleted "or near > words" on purpose because such a caveat eviscerates any distinction > you are trying to make. Not so. I meant abbreviations, mainly. More exactly, I mean any bit of text which can refer strongly enough to some word to provide a semantic meaning. I don't want to go into it here, but there are many poems around that seem to those not appreciative of them to be nothing but nonsense. The nonsense, however, is close enough to real words to count, for me, as words. Sorry, but I can't think of a single example. I'm sure I have some at my Comprepoetica website (http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica) I haven't been thinking about this kind of poetry for a while, and can't seem to go to it right now. Too much else going on in my possibly rapidly disintegrating brain. > But perhaps that's your point, Bob -- perhaps you are once again > trying to have it both ways: to claim both that a poem must have > words and that it need not, that "near-words" are enough. There are always tough cases at the borders of definitions. Oh, I did just now think of an example--from Basinski, as a matter of fact: he took Poe's "Bells" and took out all the vowels. Result: nothing but near-words readily recognized as representing full-words. Here's a made-up example: "errpexximent" is a near-word that would make an okay one-word poem; "ewtqqqxqqa" is not (for me) a near-word, so would not qualify (for me) as a one-word poem. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 7 18:03:58 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 18:03:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] schools of poetry References: <007a01c26e38$c7b447e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <00f201c26e4d$70637aa0$4828fea9@j1c1k6> Chee, mole, you may be Comprepoetica's very best publicist. Thanks, again. (Comprepoetica is at http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica) --Bob G. > Connie -- this sounds like a great class to me. You should take a look at > Bob Grumman's website for a very interesting study of certain experimental > forms. > > Tad Richards > > > > SITUATIONS > pub date October 1 > to order - or for more info > http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "NMSU" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 4:21 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] schools of poetry > > > > the real fun of teaching this poetry movements course (here at New Mexico > > State University) has been that I had to bill it as a forms class to run > it. > > But this has been a fantastic way to teach movements-from the inside out. > We > > read few critics, mostly historical articles and a bunch of poems. Some > > letters and manifestos too. Very "in at the creation" in its focus. and > they > > have to mimic the "form" which makes them ask all kinds of good questions > of > > the material. I have learned so much teaching it this way. > > > > Connie Voisine > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Oct 7 19:53:37 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 19:53:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Schools of Poetry References: <73.2716e913.2ad313cd@aol.com> <007701c26e3e$1c296da0$4828fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <001001c26e5c$c2953480$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 4:14 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Schools of Poetry > I'm curious: am I the only one at this newsgroup, or whatever it is, who > believes that he is involved in one or more schools of poetry that are > ignored by > just about everyone but those in them? I do seem to be the only one here > who ever complains that whole schools of poetry are being overlooked. > > --Bob G. I believe I'm being ignored all by myself. Tad SITUATIONS pub date October 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html From mandolin at mac.com Mon Oct 7 21:11:44 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 21:11:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: among other interesting things, On Sunday, October 6, 2002, at 08:51 PM, Michael Karl Ritchie wrote: > Identity politics strikes me also as a dead end. There's a piece by Justin Quinn online at Contemporary Review about the sameness of recent "ethnic" poetry by members of very different groups: http://www.cprw.com/Quinn/multiculturalmelt.htm Is this the sort of thing you had in mind? And, to the list in general, does it seem accurate? Or is he (Quinn) setting up a straw man with the examples he chooses? From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Oct 7 22:15:05 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 10:15:05 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Schools of Poetry References: <73.2716e913.2ad313cd@aol.com> <007701c26e3e$1c296da0$4828fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <007601c26e70$87080f00$6f864cca@JROSS2> No, you're not the only one ... we usually forbear complaining, though. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 4:14 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Schools of Poetry > I'm curious: am I the only one at this newsgroup, or whatever it is, who > believes that he is involved in one or more schools of poetry that are > ignored by > just about everyone but those in them? I do seem to be the only one here > who ever complains that whole schools of poetry are being overlooked. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Oct 7 22:40:15 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 21:40:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry Message-ID: <200210080239.g982d5M84072@mx13.mx.voyager.net> My school is Ripon College, a fine liberal arts institution, and surprisingly affordable. Just say the word, and I'll have brochures sent your way. As for being ignored, yes, even those folks just down the road in Oshkosh often neglect us, I'm afraid. . . . As for *poetic* schools, well, it's true that poets do often flock together. I suppose the concept of schools is necessary, since they give the mavericks something to define themselves against. The labels that ultimately stick (confessional poets, e.g.) seem often to be disavowed rather strenuously by the principals. But if you pledge allegiance to a "school" with 12 members in a nation as huge as ours, you'd better get used to being ignored, I think. When the Swamp Creek Hollow Christian Freedom Church suffers a schism, and 3 of its 17 members leave to form their own separate denomination down the creek a ways, that's certainly their holy right. But it doesn't make much sense for them to then spend much time railing against the national Baptist assembly for not paying attention to them. I wouldn't argue that the mainstream, whatever that is, is necessarily *better* than the tiny sects, but it's obvious why it gets more press. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= >> I'm curious: am I the only one at this newsgroup, or whatever it is, who >> believes that he is involved in one or more schools of poetry that are >> ignored by >> just about everyone but those in them? I do seem to be the only one here >> who ever complains that whole schools of poetry are being overlooked. >> >> --Bob G. >> From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 7 22:44:54 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 22:44:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Schools of Poetry References: <73.2716e913.2ad313cd@aol.com> <007701c26e3e$1c296da0$4828fea9@j1c1k6> <007601c26e70$87080f00$6f864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <018c01c26e74$af220820$4828fea9@j1c1k6> > No, you're not the only one ... we usually forbear complaining, though. > > Zan So, what unacknowledged school(s) of poetry are you in? --Bob G. From elemenope at icubed.com Mon Oct 7 23:38:54 2002 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 11:38:54 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #984 - 13 msgs In-Reply-To: <200209250043.g8P0h5617645@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200209250043.g8P0h5617645@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Sondheim's great bravery, presented with such probity and humanity, in standing up to that monster, Saddam Goliath Hussein, is seen rarely in current poetry, where people like Baraka and Anne Waldman rail and fulminate and lie against their own President. I especially like the part where Sondheim summons the intestinal fortitude to do what so many of the beleaguered Iraqi people are too afraid to do: > >> kill >> him him. i jill >> if if him be Once Sondheim summons up from within his great soul the courage to do what probably in his last incarnation he was too timid to do to Hitler, he then gets the rest of his well deserved hatred, disdain, revulsion, antagonism for the inhuman monster, Saddam Hussein, who hates Sondheim just as much as Sondheim hates him and furthermore laughs in Sondheim's face! Well, he won't be laughing at Sondheim much longer. Because Sondheim intends to kill this bastard. > >> >>> kill >>> him him. i jill > if if him be Sondheim teaches us that Saddam's WMD war machine is greater than those suppose who have a lesser imagination. >>: >we tremble in the neighborood of enormous machines 'of mass >destruction.' we learn the new language. we learn that brutality >comes out of nowhere and returns to nowhere. we who are about to die. Sondheim makes the real and present danger that this terrible ogre poses visceral and fearsome. Good for Sondheim and good for him for standing with the Lone Star Rangers who have the guts and gumption to go in to Jihadistan and take these creeps out. Thank you Alan Sondheim for standing up and facing down the tyrannosaurus rex that threatens Sondheim and his country, where he so patriotically and so inspirationally practices his freedom of expression with such dexterity, originality and stupendousness, The United States of America. >>the stupid president comes out of nothing. the stupid president go into >>nothing. the apocalypse is upon us. if not now, when. the president orders >>the death of everyone. we live in constant fear for our lives. we tremble >>in the neighborood of enormous machines 'of mass destruction.' we learn >>the new language. we learn that brutality comes out of nowhere and returns >>to nowhere. we who are about to die. only violence will stop violence. >>these beasts understand that. these beasts bide their time. we bide our >>time. everyone is waiting. >> >>the stupid president wants to kill with his arms and hands. his aides >>bring him one of us. the stupid president strangles him. YES! Sondheim captures here an actual event, witnessed by Saddam's own mustacheod double: >> >>> >>>the stupid president wants to kill with his arms and hands. his aides >bring him one of us. the stupid president strangles him. [Sondheim might have included the time Saddam machine gunned his own family at a kebab barbeque after inviting them back from exile with the greeting, "Let bygones be bygones. Come to Babylon and reunite with Uncle Saddy. But Sondheim is writing in the heat of the moment of his genius and after all he can't include every crime Saddam's committed or he'd still be writing!] [Such alienation hasn't been seen since Nova Express.] >> i will write my >>last words. it does not matter if it is him or an other or many others or >>everyone. violence breeds violence. these men and women want it. they want >>nothing. they want nothing at all. >> >>--Alan Sondheim Indeed, Sondheim inspires us all to kill that rotten maniac who fires weapons \ >the stupid president wants to kill with his arms and hands into the air as he addresses the cowled millions huddled beneath the balconey where he rants and raves. Thank you, Alan Sondheim, for your patriotic artistry. Thank you for daring to say what so many in today's world fear to say. Thank you for standing up and telling everyone that you will kill that stinking ghoul Saddam Hussein if you have to. Thankfully, you don't have to. As an American taxpayer the Alan Sondheim volunteer army will do it for you. > >out of nowhere > > >aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaa aaa aa aaaaaaa. aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aa aaaa >aaaaaaa. aaa aaaaaaaaaa aa aaaa aa. aa aaa aaa, aaaa. aaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaa >aaa aaaaa aa aaaaaaaa. aa aaaa aa aaaaaaaa aaaa aaa aaa aaaaa. aa aaaaaaa >aa aaa aaaaaaaaaaa aa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaa 'aa aaaa aaaaaaaaaaa.' aa aaaaa >aaa aaa aaaaaaaa. aa aaaaa aaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaa aaa aa aaaaaaa aaa aaaaaaa >aa aaaaaaa. aa aaa aaa aaaaa aa aaa. aaaa aaaaaaaa aaaa aaaa aaaaaaaa. >aaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa aaaa. aaaaa aaaaaa aaaa aaaaa aaaa. aa aaaa aaa >aaaa. aaaaaaaa aa aaaaaaa. > >aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaa aa aaaa aaaa aaa aaaa aaa aaaaa. aaa aaaaa >aaaaa aaa aaa aa aa. aaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaa. a aaaa aaaaa aa >aaaa aaaaa. aa aaaa aaa aaaaaa aa aa aa aaa aa aa aaaaa aa aaaa aaaaaa aa >aaaaaaaa. aaaaaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaa. aaaaa aaa aaa aaaaa aaaa aa. aaaa aaaa >aaaaaaa. aaaa aaaa aaaaaaa aa aaa. > >abb aabaaa 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eabegbbf gacbcaef 'bf gaff defaebcacba.' de feaea >abe aed faaabaae. de feaea abaa bebaafcaf cbgef bba bf abdbeee aad eeabeaf >ab abdbeee. de dbb aee abbba ab dce. baff ccbfeace dcff fabc ccbfeace. >abefe beafaf badeefaaad abaa. abefe beafaf bcde abece acge. de bcde bbe >acge. eceefbae cf dacacaa. > >abe fabccd ceefcdeaa daaaf ab ecff dcab bcf aegf aad baadf. bcf acdef >becaa bcg bae bf bf. abe fabccd ceefcdeaa faeaaafef bcg. c dcff decae gf >fafa dbedf. ca dbef aba gaaaee cf ca cf bcg be aa babee be gaaf babeef be >eceefbae. ccbfeace beeedf ccbfeace. abefe gea aad dbgea daaa ca. abef daaa >ababcaa. abef daaa ababcaa aa aff. > >ghe fghcid ceefideag cbmef bhg bf abghiag. ghe fghcid ceefideag gb iagb >abghiag. ghe acbcallcfe if hcba hf. if abg abj, jhea. ghe ceefideag bedeef >ghe deagh bf eieelbae. je liie ia cbafgaag feae fbe bhe liief. je geemble >ia ghe aeighbbebbd bf eabembhf machiaef 'bf maff defgehcgiba.' je leaea >ghe aej laaghage. je leaea ghag behgaligl cbmef bhg bf abjheee aad eegheaf >gb abjheee. je jhb aee abbhg gb die. ball iibleace jill fgbc iibleace. >ghefe beafgf hadeefgaad ghag. ghefe beafgf bide gheie gime. je bide bhe >gime. eieelbae if jaigiag. > >ghe fghcid ceefideag jaagf gb kill jigh hif aemf aad haadf. hif aidef >beiag him bae bf hf. ghe fghcid ceefideag fgeaaglef him. i jill jeige ml >lafg jbedf. ig dbef abg maggee if ig if him be aa bghee be maal bgheef be >eieelbae. iibleace beeedf iibleace. ghefe mea aad jbmea jaag ig. ghel jaag >abghiag. ghel jaag abghiag ag all. > >the stupid president comes out of nothing. the stupid president go into >nothing. the apocalypse is upon us. if not now, when. the president orders >the death of everyone. we live in constant fear for our lives. we tremble >in the neighborood of enormous machines 'of mass destruction.' we learn >the new language. we learn that brutality comes out of nowhere and returns >to nowhere. we who are about to die. only violence will stop violence. >these beasts understand that. these beasts bide their time. we bide our >time. everyone is waiting. > >the stupid president wants to kill with his arms and hands. his aides >bring him one of us. the stupid president strangles him. i will write my >last words. it does not matter if it is him or an other or many others or >everyone. violence breeds violence. these men and women want it. they want >nothing. they want nothing at all. > >--Alan Sondheim -- From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 8 05:59:00 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 05:59:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: <200210080239.g982d5M84072@mx13.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <001d01c26eb1$53b17240$10dffea9@j1c1k6> > As for *poetic* schools, well, it's true that poets do often flock together. > I suppose the concept of schools is necessary, since they give the > mavericks something to define themselves against. Right, David. No better reason. And cars are cars; flowers, flowers. For that matter, why name poets? Let's just use the phrase, "the poet," when speaking of the author of any poem. >The labels that > ultimately stick (confessional poets, e.g.) seem often to be disavowed > rather strenuously by the principals. > But if you pledge allegiance to a "school" with 12 members in a nation as > huge as ours, you'd better get used to being ignored, I think. > When the > Swamp Creek Hollow Christian Freedom Church suffers a schism, and 3 of its > 17 members leave to form their own separate denomination down the creek a > ways, that's certainly their holy right. But it doesn't make much sense for > them to then spend much time railing against the national Baptist assembly > for not paying attention to them. You have to start some number. But it's not the number of members that counts, it's the difference of a school's main techniques from the techniques of other schools. So 12 people writing 15-line rhymed iambic poems would not be a school, regardless if they called themselves one. > I wouldn't argue that the mainstream, whatever that is, is necessarily > *better* than the tiny sects, but it's obvious why it gets more press. My desire that we make up a list of schools has nothing to do with which school is best, but only with covering as much of the poetry and poets that are out there as we can. My suspicion is that most of those who are comfortably lodged in one or more of the half dozen or so mainstream schools of poetry have little sympathy with this. --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Oct 8 08:40:42 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:40:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Quote du jour Message-ID: Gerald Stern, a former poet laureate of the state of New Jersey, in commenting on proposed legislation that would give Gov. James E. McGreevey the power to fire Amiri Baraka, the current poet laureate of New Jersey, says, "It's so pathetic in a way. It's such a minor position. It's like legislation to remove the dogcatcher." --NYT, 10/8/02 Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Oct 8 11:51:15 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 10:51:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Performance poetry Message-ID: Thanks, Michael, for the link. I hope others visit the review, which articulates some of the problems with so-called ethnic poetry. Here are a few memorable samples from the piece. Paul Lake * The showcase of multicultural literature is Paul Lauter?s Heath Anthology of American Literature (1990). It proposes a radical re-reading of the American canon in which, for instance, Harriet Prescott Spofford is allotted more space than Ernest Hemingway, Sterling Brown more than Wallace Stevens, and Charles W. Chesnutt more than William Faulkner. Its contemporary poetry section is just as radical in its choices and omissions: although the youngest poet included was born in 1955, there is no white male poet born after 1930. The only two white women included after this date, with the exception of Sylvia Plath, Marge Piercy and Carolyn Forch? have engaged the editors? concerns with gender and politics in obvious ways. As for the poetry that is included, its stylistic range is limited: apart from the historical collage of Simon Ortiz?s From Sand Creek (1981) and occasionally a breathless surrealism reminiscent of the Beats, there are two predominant modes. * The source ethnicities being celebrated here are Japanese, Mexican, African, Japanese?Hawaiian, Oneida, and Hopi, and most of these poets presume that their particular ethnic background makes them different. Why then do they all sound the same? The answer seems to lie in the fact that their work is more conditioned by the target culture than the source ethnicity; or, in other words, it is the discourse of multiculturalism that is the major influence on their chosen mode of poetic expression. * To judge by the criticism now being produced by scholars of the subject, those ?specific tribal realities? are paid only the lip-service of noting the tribal affiliation in parentheses after the poet?s name. For all the mention of various tribes, one receives no clear impression through the Heath Anthology, or Duane Niatum?s Harper?s Anthology of 20th Century Native American Poetry (1988), or the surveys of Maddox, Fast and Wiget concerning how the cultures and values of these tribes might differ. Reading through the Heath one is immediately struck by the fact that the poems for the most part thematically reflect the critical concerns of multiculturalism: these poems are concerned with the loss of ethnic origins, or they celebrate the attempt to regain them, while the exact characteristics of those origins remain suspiciously generic; also endemic is the condemnation of white culture. On the face of it, this might seem unobjectionable, but when we consider that the aim of multicultural criticism is to recognize the irreducible differences between various cultures, then we realize how abject its failure is in the field of poetry. To say that the poets collude with the critics in this is to put it too strongly, but there does seem to be a common project which in the final analysis is detrimental to the literature produced. From ron.silliman at verizon.net Tue Oct 8 12:36:32 2002 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:36:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently on the blog In-Reply-To: <200210081601.g98G13605737@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000501c26ee8$f33d63f0$af0ac143@Dell> * Eliot Weinberger on Objectivism, the New American Poetry & the 1950s * Reading The Actualist Anthology 25 years later * Poetry & the problem of themes: the examples of Chain & Poetics Journal * Poetry & the problem of themes: Amiri Baraka blows up America * Kit Robinson's The Crave * David Bromige's As in T as in Tether * 3 readings in NYC, October 15 & 16 * Why somebody needs to edit an anthology of the Spicer Circle * Lorine Niedecker & Besmilr Brigham * Anselm Hollo's latest collection of sonnets * Michael Lally's anthology None of the Above - Reconstructing the 1970s * Poetry as conflict All at Silliman's Blog: http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From Cadaly at aol.com Tue Oct 8 13:32:49 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:32:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently on the blog Message-ID: <164.154ad814.2ad470c1@aol.com> > * Why somebody needs to edit an anthology of the Spicer Circle > Agreed -- I just did an encyclopedia article which tried to include this and there's very little poetry and info. freely available, although Kevin Killian and Peter Gizzi would certainly be logical editors. Great blog -- I can't get SPICE KREIS out of my head -- Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Oct 8 15:41:56 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:41:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Charles Simic, "Marching Music" Message-ID: Marching Music Our history is both tragic and comic. Beat the big drum, fellows! Horsemen of the Apocalypse, What fun it was to pull your horses' tails! The earth trembled. Mighty towers collapsed. Towers of chairs still warm With backsides of kings and queens, Towers of pisspots, too, Where our philosophers sat thinking. We stood with our mouths open Admiring the fashionable black hoods The horses and the coachmen wore As they hauled off the trash to the infinite. Beat the big drum, fellows! On the Square of Eternal Happiness A woman ran by shrieking, Hugging a blood-stained shirt. --Charles Simic fr. *The Book of Gods and Devils*, 1990 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Tue Oct 8 18:16:29 2002 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (NMSU) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 15:16:29 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In-Reply-To: <200210080237.g982bE631395@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: One thing I have learned by teaching this schools of poetry class-is that you must have at least a few manifesto writers in the bunch or you're going nowhere. Or a critic who's willing to do that work for you. Come to think of it, the way, historically, people's work seems to become part of at least a very minor canon is through not a small amount of self-promotion through prose criticism and/or public performance. I am more and more thinking one need to be sure he or she is right and willing to proclaim it. (If you want a list--start with Pound and move through your Norton Anthology). These poets eventually change their minds--see Pound's movements through movements--and write some new manifestos OR they regret the reduction naming their movement required and never affiliate again... never that sure about anything and therefore doomed to obscurity, Connie From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Tue Oct 8 21:51:14 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 09:51:14 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: Message-ID: <00ae01c26f36$5bbdd5c0$63864cca@JROSS2> I'm with you about never being sure of Poetry School affiliations/membership ... But I'm quite sure you're right about self-promotion and public manifestos being necessary in the pursuit of recognition for same. (And wasn't Pound glorious at the whole business?!!) And Bob -- there is no one else who writes like me, as far as I can see, which has frustrated people trying to review my work: no pigeon holes/trends available. I rather like this ... and the fact that there is often no discernible narrative of any sort ... or a tidy ending in my pieces. Think I'll stay with David's proposed school of Dementia -- it's 'safest'. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "NMSU" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 6:16 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > One thing I have learned by teaching this schools of poetry class-is that > you must have at least a few manifesto writers in the bunch or you're going > nowhere. Or a critic who's willing to do that work for you. Come to think of > it, the way, historically, people's work seems to become part of at least a > very minor canon is through not a small amount of self-promotion through > prose criticism and/or public performance. I am more and more thinking one > need to be sure he or she is right and willing to proclaim it. (If you want > a list--start with Pound and move through your Norton Anthology). These > poets eventually change their minds--see Pound's movements through > movements--and write some new manifestos OR they regret the reduction naming > their movement required and never affiliate again... > > never that sure about anything and therefore doomed to obscurity, > > Connie > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jpjones at ihug.com.au Tue Oct 8 22:21:45 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (jpjones at ihug.com.au) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:21:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry Message-ID: > there is no one else who writes like me, as far as I can see, > which has frustrated people trying to review my work: no pigeon holes/trends > available. I rather like this ... and the fact that there is often no > discernible narrative of any sort ... or a tidy ending in my pieces. > > Think I'll stay with David's proposed school of Dementia -- it's 'safest'. Hi Zan, I'm in much the same position. Maybe it's an Australian thing -- no-one knows where to put you so you don't get put anywhere. I guess me, myself and I form our own small triumvirate (maybe this is sounding like the dementia school). It used to irk me a great deal, especially when I'd see all the so-so poems in Australian anthologies which are mainly there because they 'represent' some kind of 'position' or 'point of view' or 'issue' or 'school'. Now, I don't give a stuff and am happy to be (I think the three of us agree) to be part of a one poet school (sort of like a one teacher school with no pupils). Jill From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 9 05:49:59 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 05:49:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <00ae01c26f36$5bbdd5c0$63864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <001801c26f79$3ba39f20$f336fea9@j1c1k6> > I'm with you about never being sure of Poetry School affiliations/membership > ... But I'm quite sure you're right about self-promotion and public > manifestos being necessary in the pursuit of recognition for same. (And > wasn't Pound glorious at the whole business?!!) > And Bob -- there is no one else who writes like me, as far as I can see, > which has frustrated people trying to review my work: no pigeon holes/trends > available. Are you saying your poetry has nothing in common with any other poetry? Every poet is unique, but every poet starts in the pigeonhole, poetry. In my taxonomy, every work a poet does has to be one of three kinds: songmode (traditional "formal"), plaintext (conventional freeverse) or burstnorm. I don't know your poetry (sorry), but I'm sure just about all of it easily fits some school under those three categories. >I rather like this ... and the fact that there is often no > discernible narrative of any sort ... or a tidy ending in my pieces. Okay, but what techniques are you using? > Think I'll stay with David's proposed school of Dementia -- it's 'safest'. > Zan You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a school to be in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of competition in it. --Bob G. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "NMSU" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 6:16 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > > One thing I have learned by teaching this schools of poetry class-is that > > you must have at least a few manifesto writers in the bunch or you're > going > > nowhere. Or a critic who's willing to do that work for you. Come to think > of > > it, the way, historically, people's work seems to become part of at least > a > > very minor canon is through not a small amount of self-promotion through > > prose criticism and/or public performance. I am more and more thinking one > > need to be sure he or she is right and willing to proclaim it. (If you > want > > a list--start with Pound and move through your Norton Anthology). These > > poets eventually change their minds--see Pound's movements through > > movements--and write some new manifestos OR they regret the reduction > naming > > their movement required and never affiliate again... > > > > never that sure about anything and therefore doomed to obscurity, > > > > Connie > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mandolin at mac.com Wed Oct 9 07:43:46 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 07:43:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In-Reply-To: <001801c26f79$3ba39f20$f336fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <5E64A536-DB7C-11D6-B7C4-000393C29586@mac.com> On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 05:49 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a school > to be > in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of competition > in > it. Are you saying one should decide how to write by trying to figure out where there's the least competition? From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 9 16:20:22 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:20:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <5E64A536-DB7C-11D6-B7C4-000393C29586@mac.com> Message-ID: <002301c26fd1$4c0a8100$9ae5fea9@j1c1k6> > > You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a school > > to be > > in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of competition > > in > > it. > Are you saying one should decide how to write by trying to figure out > where there's the least competition? Zan is a poet, so has decided how to write. --Bob G. From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Oct 9 22:05:42 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:05:42 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <00ae01c26f36$5bbdd5c0$63864cca@JROSS2> <001801c26f79$3ba39f20$f336fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <001d01c27001$8da2f360$63864cca@JROSS2> Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why can't poems be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or impossibly broad) line? I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment for my work. I'm with Jill Jones -- there are only three people in my mode: me, myself, and I. Don't particularly care about anyone else joining up. Besides, I'd side with Groucho any day: "I don't want to be part of any [other] club that would have me as a member." Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > > I'm with you about never being sure of Poetry School > affiliations/membership > > ... But I'm quite sure you're right about self-promotion and public > > manifestos being necessary in the pursuit of recognition for same. (And > > wasn't Pound glorious at the whole business?!!) > > > And Bob -- there is no one else who writes like me, as far as I can see, > > which has frustrated people trying to review my work: no pigeon > holes/trends > > available. > > Are you saying your poetry has nothing in common with any other poetry? > Every poet is unique, but every poet starts in the pigeonhole, poetry. In > my taxonomy, every work a poet does has to be one of three kinds: songmode > (traditional "formal"), plaintext (conventional freeverse) or burstnorm. I > don't know your poetry (sorry), but I'm sure just about all of it easily > fits some school under those three categories. > > >I rather like this ... and the fact that there is often no > > discernible narrative of any sort ... or a tidy ending in my pieces. > > Okay, but what techniques are you using? > > > Think I'll stay with David's proposed school of Dementia -- it's 'safest'. > > > Zan > > You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a school to be > in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of competition in > it. > > --Bob G. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "NMSU" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 6:16 AM > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > > > > > One thing I have learned by teaching this schools of poetry class-is > that > > > you must have at least a few manifesto writers in the bunch or you're > > going > > > nowhere. Or a critic who's willing to do that work for you. Come to > think > > of > > > it, the way, historically, people's work seems to become part of at > least > > a > > > very minor canon is through not a small amount of self-promotion through > > > prose criticism and/or public performance. I am more and more thinking > one > > > need to be sure he or she is right and willing to proclaim it. (If you > > want > > > a list--start with Pound and move through your Norton Anthology). These > > > poets eventually change their minds--see Pound's movements through > > > movements--and write some new manifestos OR they regret the reduction > > naming > > > their movement required and never affiliate again... > > > > > > never that sure about anything and therefore doomed to obscurity, > > > > > > Connie > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Oct 9 22:08:28 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:08:28 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <5E64A536-DB7C-11D6-B7C4-000393C29586@mac.com> Message-ID: <002d01c27001$ee44f510$63864cca@JROSS2> Yeah -- how weird is that? It's like writing poetry for anyone other than oneself ... which is another reason that should I ever be offered a poet laureate, I shall refuse. Besides, it pays FA. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Snider" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 05:49 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a school > > to be > > in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of competition > > in > > it. > > Are you saying one should decide how to write by trying to figure out > where there's the least competition? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 9 22:20:48 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:20:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In-Reply-To: <001d01c27001$8da2f360$63864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those other sui generis ones, okay? Hal "Balthus is a painter about whom nothing is known." --Balthus Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why can't poems { be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or impossibly { broad) line? I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment for my work. { { Zan From jpjones at ihug.com.au Wed Oct 9 22:54:20 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (jpjones at ihug.com.au) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 21:54:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry Message-ID: > > Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those > other sui generis ones, okay? Hal, Your comment is cute, yes, but it has nothing to do with what both Zan and I are talking about. I'm influenced, I learn, I read widely, I write over what's gone before. I talk to other poets, get ideas, disagree with them. All of that and more. Sheesh, is this stating the obvious, or what? Neither of us said or implied that our work was sui generis. I certainly am not that naive. We were talking about schools and categorisations, we were talking about exclusions, about how our work is received, or not, and how we deal with that. Jill From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 9 22:58:40 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:58:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. Hal { > Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those { > other sui generis ones, okay? { { Hal, { { Your comment is cute, yes, but it has nothing to do with what both Zan and I { are talking about. { { I'm influenced, I learn, I read widely, I write over what's gone before. I talk { to other poets, get ideas, disagree with them. All of that and more. Sheesh, is { this stating the obvious, or what? Neither of us said or implied that our work { was sui generis. I certainly am not that naive. { { We were talking about schools and categorisations, we were talking about { exclusions, about how our work is received, or not, and how we deal with that. { { Jill { { { { { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Oct 9 23:40:15 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 22:40:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry Message-ID: <200210100339.g9A3dFFB026193@mx10.mx.voyager.net> When the topic is poetic schools, I'm afraid I keep thinking of the Monty Python bit from *Life of Brian*, when Brian is trying to persuade his followers that he isn't the Messiah and they shouldn't follow him, etc. So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! You're all *individuals*!" And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Oct 10 00:50:30 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:50:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry Message-ID: <19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116@cs.com> In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! > You're all *individuals*!" > > And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > > Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will come round to him. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Oct 10 01:00:52 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:00:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry Message-ID: <200210100459.g9A4xpSh090906@mx11.mx.voyager.net> grahamd at ripon.edu writes: So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! You're all *individuals*!" And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will come round to him. Ah, but books are for the scholar's idle times. When he can read God directly, the hour is too precious to be wasted in other men's transcripts of their readings. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 10 05:56:24 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 05:56:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116@cs.com> Message-ID: <001f01c27043$4be7d700$c061fea9@j1c1k6> The school that ninety percent of poets think they belong to is the Oh, How Wonderfully Unclassifiable I Am School. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:50 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! You're all *individuals*!" And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will come round to him. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 10 06:07:03 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:07:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <00ae01c26f36$5bbdd5c0$63864cca@JROSS2> <001801c26f79$3ba39f20$f336fea9@j1c1k6> <001d01c27001$8da2f360$63864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <002a01c27044$c87cbbe0$c061fea9@j1c1k6> > Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why can't poems > be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or impossibly > broad) line? If someone asked you what kind of car you owned, assuming you won one, would you say its uniqueness prevented you from describing it further? How can you believe that to categorize poetry means you can't ALSO examine poems in their own terms, whatever that is? I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment for my work. > I'm with Jill Jones -- there are only three people in my mode: me, myself, > and I. Don't particularly care about anyone else joining up. Besides, I'd > side with Groucho any day: "I don't want to be part of any [other] club that > would have me as a member." This, alas, is the kind of response I always get whenever I try to get poets to list schools of poetry. > Zan From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 10 06:09:53 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:09:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: Message-ID: <003601c27045$2d9ccba0$c061fea9@j1c1k6> > Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. > > Hal Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't make them sui generis. --Bob G. From jpjones at ihug.com.au Thu Oct 10 08:48:40 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:48:40 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In-Reply-To: <003601c27045$2d9ccba0$c061fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <9A105C9C-DC4E-11D6-B57D-0030657CB5FE@ihug.com.au> On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 08:09 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. >> >> Hal > > Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't make > them > sui generis. Oh right. it's so easy to be patronising, isn't it? I never said I thought I was 'wonderfully' unclassifiable - I said "no-one knows where to put you so you don't get put anywhere." I could think of various ways I could be classified, discussed, whatever, but what passes for criticism, at least in this country, is either fairly conservative or undeveloped. It is also narrow so that those who produce some work that might fit here and other work that might fir there and, yet again other work ... etc appear to be too hard to classify and, therefore, are not discussed or regarded much at all - by others, note. Serious discussions about poetics are still not common round these parts though maybe it is changing. My next comment was an ironic comment, " I guess me, myself and I form our own small triumvirate". Silly me. (See, I can be patronising too. What fun!) It's a big wide world and not everywhere is the same. But maybe that doesn't interest this list. Jill _______________________________________________________ Jill Jones http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones Latest book: Screens Jets Heaven. Available now from Salt Publishing http://www.saltpublishing.com From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Oct 10 08:55:28 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:55:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry Message-ID: In a message dated 10/10/2002 12:00:47 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > Ah, but books are for the scholar's idle times. When he can read God > directly, the hour is too precious to be wasted in other men's transcripts > of their readings. > Amen. Or as Gwyn would say, Awomen. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Oct 10 08:56:50 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:56:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry Message-ID: <14c.159b67a6.2ad6d312@cs.com> In a message dated 10/10/2002 5:12:40 AM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't make them > sui generis. > > --Bob G. > I got my MFA from Arkansas, so I must be sooooiee generis. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Oct 10 09:07:30 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:07:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In-Reply-To: <14c.159b67a6.2ad6d312@cs.com> Message-ID: If not chop suey generis. Hal "I would like the world to know that I am a poet first and a would-be assassin last." --John W. Hinckley, Jr. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard I got my MFA from Arkansas, so I must be sooooiee generis. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Oct 10 09:13:47 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:13:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <14c.159b67a6.2ad6d312@cs.com> Message-ID: <3DA57D0C.23C40A70@earthlink.net> Sam Gwynn wrote: In a message dated 10/10/2002 5:12:40 AM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't make them sui generis. --Bob G. I got my MFA from Arkansas, so I must be sooooiee generis. =============== I got mine from Iowa before there was gene-altered corn. - Jim "The Living Web": Poets, Writers, & Music http://poetserv.com/livweb/livweb.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Oct 10 15:33:39 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:33:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Writing and free speech Message-ID: An interesting article from UPI on yet another writer being taken to court to be punished for her writing. http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20021009-121437-7274r From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 10 17:22:09 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:22:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <9A105C9C-DC4E-11D6-B57D-0030657CB5FE@ihug.com.au> Message-ID: <003801c270a3$183fa6c0$8e90fea9@j1c1k6> > On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 08:09 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. > >> > >> Hal > > > > Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't make > > them > > sui generis. > > > Oh right. it's so easy to be patronising, isn't it? Yes. Not as easy as being patronisable, though. >I never said I > thought I was 'wonderfully' unclassifiable - Nor did I say you did. But the great majority of poets who bother to respond to my call for a list of schools of poetry claim to be unclassifiable, and my impression is that they are proud of it. I said "no-one knows where > to put you so you don't get put anywhere." Some people would know where to put you, I'm sure. And all I want to do is make it easier for them. >I could think of various > ways I could be classified, discussed, whatever, but what passes for > criticism, at least in this country, is either fairly conservative or > undeveloped. It is also narrow so that those who produce some work that > might fit here and other work that might fir there and, yet again other > work ... etc appear to be too hard to classify and, therefore, are not > discussed or regarded much at all - by others, note. Serious > discussions about poetics are still not common round these parts though > maybe it is changing. I sympathize. There's hardly any serious criticism of poetry anywhere, that I know of. But I don't think that has much to do with my call for a list of poetry schools. Such a list would be misused by bad critics, but help the rest. > My next comment was an ironic comment, " I guess me, myself and I form > our own small triumvirate". Silly me. (See, I can be patronising too. > What fun!) I caught it. But I hope you can understand my not being too amused when I explain that the second main reaction to my call for a list of poetry schools is some joke about a clearly silly hypothetical poetry school that could be put on the list. I also happen to be in one of my cranky moods. --Bob G. From jpjones at ihug.com.au Thu Oct 10 18:48:46 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:48:46 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In-Reply-To: <003801c270a3$183fa6c0$8e90fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <6F60A506-DCA2-11D6-96ED-0030657CB5FE@ihug.com.au> On Friday, October 11, 2002, at 07:22 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >> Oh right. it's so easy to be patronising, isn't it? > > Yes. Not as easy as being patronisable, though. Oh, charming!! > >> I never said I >> thought I was 'wonderfully' unclassifiable - > > Nor did I say you did. But the great majority of poets who bother to > respond to my call for a list of schools of poetry claim to be > unclassifiable, and my impression is that they are proud of it. Their problem - no need to make assumptions about others, thank you very much. > > I said "no-one knows where >> to put you so you don't get put anywhere." > > Some people would know where to put you, I'm sure. And all I want to > do is > make it easier for them. > Why? And why will 'they' listen to you. But please, be my guest. You know anyone in Australia? Or, tell me, where would you put me? Seriously, or am I just inviting another patronising putdown. > >> I could think of various >> ways I could be classified, discussed, whatever, but what passes for >> criticism, at least in this country, is either fairly conservative or >> undeveloped. It is also narrow so that those who produce some work >> that >> might fit here and other work that might fir there and, yet again >> other >> work ... etc appear to be too hard to classify and, therefore, are not >> discussed or regarded much at all - by others, note. Serious >> discussions about poetics are still not common round these parts >> though >> maybe it is changing. > > I sympathize. There's hardly any serious criticism of poetry > anywhere, that > I know of. But I don't think that has much to do with my call for a > list of > poetry schools. Such a list would be misused by bad critics, but help > the > rest. Oh, I think there is way more in the US and the UK. You under-rate yourselves. that's why I'm on these lists (even though at times I get insulted and patronised). >> My next comment was an ironic comment, " I guess me, myself and I form >> our own small triumvirate". Silly me. (See, I can be patronising too. >> What fun!) > > I caught it. But I hope you can understand my not being too amused > when I > explain that the second main reaction to my call for a list of poetry > schools is some joke about a clearly silly hypothetical poetry school > that > could be put on the list. > > I also happen to be in one of my cranky moods. > > --Bob G. Well, Bob, you've sure raised my cranky factor. I'm not too amused when you lump people together into one hypothetical basket just because they won't play along with your pet idea, especially people you don't know from a place you've got no idea about. Besides, I didn't make the joke (and what is wrong with a joke anyway - especially if it's clear where it is coming from). And as for the 'call for a list', yes, there are schools or camps here, but the definitions of or the situating of are not as clear-cut as your concept of school seems to give. I could draw it out more but I realise now that no-one here is interested. I, and Zan, I presume, (but I should not presume, should I?) were trying to give a bit of flavour to our situation, pointing to a narrowness of thinking and/or lack of imagination. But that seems to be a general problem ... Jill _______________________________________________________ Jill Jones http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones Latest book: Screens Jets Heaven. Available now from Salt Publishing http://www.saltpublishing.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 10 20:31:55 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:31:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <6F60A506-DCA2-11D6-96ED-0030657CB5FE@ihug.com.au> Message-ID: <010101c270bd$9b188340$8e90fea9@j1c1k6> > > (Jill) said "no-one knows where > >> to put you so you don't get put anywhere." > > > > Some people would know where to put you, I'm sure. And all I want to > > do is > > make it easier for them. > > > > Why? I want to make it easier for them because I think if there were a name for a school of poetry someone would think of putting you in, it might help you by showing you how others perceive your work; it would give people writing about your work a term to describe it with, saving a lot of space; it would give people reading about your poetry a term that would help them know whether to explore your poetry or not, or which they could look up to find that out. It would give you a stronger weapon to use against those ignoring your work since you could claim, as I often do, that it is not just your work that is being ignored, but the whole school of poetry of which you're a member. It would help you find others doing poetry similar to yours (which I consider about the best thing a poet can do). I'm sure there are other reasons. And why will 'they' listen to you. They probably will not. But I said I WANTED to help them, not that I expected them to want my help. > But please, be my guest. You > know anyone in Australia? Actually, I do. But my desire is to make a thorough list of schools for all the English-speaking world--and, ultimately, the whole world. > Or, tell me, where would you put me? Sorry, but I don't know your poetry yet--or if I've seen it, I don't know it as yours. > Seriously, or am I just inviting another patronising putdown. > > > > I sympathize. There's hardly any serious criticism of poetry > > anywhere, that > > I know of. But I don't think that has much to do with my call for a > > list of > > poetry schools. Such a list would be misused by bad critics, but help > > the > > rest. > > Oh, I think there is way more in the US and the UK. You under-rate > yourselves. I'm not sure about the UK, but the US basically does not seriously cover serious poetry anywhere except in the micro-press. > that's why I'm on these lists (even though at times I get > insulted and patronised). I don't think of this list as American. > Well, Bob, you've sure raised my cranky factor. I'm not too amused when > you lump people together into one hypothetical basket just because they > won't play along with your pet idea, especially people you don't know > from a place you've got no idea about. Besides, I didn't make the joke > (and what is wrong with a joke anyway - especially if it's clear where > it is coming from). > > And as for the 'call for a list', yes, there are schools or camps here, > but the definitions of or the situating of are not as clear-cut as your > concept of school seems to give. I could draw it out more but I realise > now that no-one here is interested. I, and Zan, I presume, (but I > should not presume, should I?) were trying to give a bit of flavour to > our situation, pointing to a narrowness of thinking and/or lack of > imagination. But that seems to be a general problem ... > > Jill I think we've pretty well established where our flavours are. So I'll drop out of our subject here, as once again no one suggests even one school of poetry for my list. I'll be back when/if I get a new version of my essay on the subject done. --Bob G. From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 10 21:05:17 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:05:17 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116@cs.com> Message-ID: <001401c270c2$45147490$57864cca@JROSS2> As usual, it's the male gender standing in/speaking for everyone. sigh. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! You're all *individuals*!" And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will come round to him. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 10 21:06:38 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:06:38 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <200210100459.g9A4xpSh090906@mx11.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <002001c270c2$76ad4b30$57864cca@JROSS2> Schools of poetryI agree with what you say, David, but again, gender, please!! Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:00 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry grahamd at ripon.edu writes: So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! You're all *individuals*!" And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will come round to him. Ah, but books are for the scholar's idle times. When he can read God directly, the hour is too precious to be wasted in other men's transcripts of their readings. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpjones at ihug.com.au Thu Oct 10 21:12:31 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (jpjones at ihug.com.au) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:12:31 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry Message-ID: > I want to make it easier for them because I think if there were a name for a > school of poetry someone would think of putting you in, it might help you by > showing you how others perceive your work; it would give people writing > about your work a term to describe it with, saving a lot of space; it would > give people reading about your poetry a term that would help them know > whether to explore your poetry or not, or which they could look up to find > that out. It would give you a stronger weapon to use against those ignoring > your work since you could claim, as I often do, that it is not just your > work that is being ignored, but the whole school of poetry of which you're a > member. It would help you find others doing poetry similar to yours (which > I consider about the best thing a poet can do). I'm sure there are other > reasons. Bob, I have now a copy of your list of schools and will go away and think about it, talk to others. My first reaction is 'yes, but ...' - in my book that's a good thing. But now I see what your project is. As for flavours, mine go from sour to sweet, savoury to tart, depending on what course we're up to. Best, Jill From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 10 21:20:22 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:20:22 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116@cs.com> <001f01c27043$4be7d700$c061fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <002c01c270c4$60f95890$57864cca@JROSS2> Not at all ... or at least speaking for myself ... I write; I publish; ergo, I am a poet. Why a person has to be part of any classification/school is beyond me. Perhaps a poet can be influenced by a trend (which is unavoidable in any case, since everyone is part of the text/culture around them), but this 'school' thing ... It's part of establishing new canons, I reckon. It's a way of excluding/including, and in many cases, "writing off" work. So following the trend of Juvenilia School, I say, "Bite Me -- bite me hard." Sincerely yours, Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry The school that ninety percent of poets think they belong to is the Oh, How Wonderfully Unclassifiable I Am School. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:50 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! You're all *individuals*!" And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will come round to him. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 10 21:22:58 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:22:58 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <00ae01c26f36$5bbdd5c0$63864cca@JROSS2> <001801c26f79$3ba39f20$f336fea9@j1c1k6> <001d01c27001$8da2f360$63864cca@JROSS2> <002a01c27044$c87cbbe0$c061fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <003a01c270c4$bd661500$57864cca@JROSS2> Do you teach, Bob? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why can't > poems > > be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or impossibly > > broad) line? > > If someone asked you what kind of car you owned, assuming you won one, would > you say its uniqueness prevented you from describing it further? > > How can you believe that to categorize poetry means you can't ALSO examine > poems in their own terms, whatever that is? > > I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment for my work. > > I'm with Jill Jones -- there are only three people in my mode: me, myself, > > and I. Don't particularly care about anyone else joining up. Besides, > I'd > > side with Groucho any day: "I don't want to be part of any [other] club > that > > would have me as a member." > > This, alas, is the kind of response I always get whenever I try to get poets > to list schools of poetry. > > > Zan > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 10 21:31:21 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:31:21 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <9A105C9C-DC4E-11D6-B57D-0030657CB5FE@ihug.com.au> Message-ID: <005c01c270c5$eb131600$57864cca@JROSS2> Yeah, Jill!! Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Jones" To: Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 08:09 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. > >> > >> Hal > > > > Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't make > > them > > sui generis. > > > Oh right. it's so easy to be patronising, isn't it? I never said I > thought I was 'wonderfully' unclassifiable - I said "no-one knows where > to put you so you don't get put anywhere." I could think of various > ways I could be classified, discussed, whatever, but what passes for > criticism, at least in this country, is either fairly conservative or > undeveloped. It is also narrow so that those who produce some work that > might fit here and other work that might fir there and, yet again other > work ... etc appear to be too hard to classify and, therefore, are not > discussed or regarded much at all - by others, note. Serious > discussions about poetics are still not common round these parts though > maybe it is changing. > > My next comment was an ironic comment, " I guess me, myself and I form > our own small triumvirate". Silly me. (See, I can be patronising too. > What fun!) > > It's a big wide world and not everywhere is the same. But maybe that > doesn't interest this list. > > Jill > > _______________________________________________________ > Jill Jones > http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones > > Latest book: Screens Jets Heaven. Available now from Salt Publishing > http://www.saltpublishing.com > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 10 21:47:25 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:47:25 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <6F60A506-DCA2-11D6-96ED-0030657CB5FE@ihug.com.au> Message-ID: <011301c270c8$27b727c0$57864cca@JROSS2> > And as for the 'call for a list', yes, there are schools or camps here, > but the definitions of or the situating of are not as clear-cut as your > concept of school seems to give. I could draw it out more but I realise > now that no-one here is interested. I, and Zan, I presume, (but I > should not presume, should I?) were trying to give a bit of flavour to > our situation, pointing to a narrowness of thinking and/or lack of > imagination. But that seems to be a general problem ... > > Jill Yes, you do speak for me. Thank you! You're right about that last point, as well, Jill. I'm just more childishly reactive when it comes to reading that sort of drivel. Zan From jpjones at ihug.com.au Thu Oct 10 21:58:44 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (jpjones at ihug.com.au) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:58:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry Message-ID: > And as for the 'call for a list', yes, there are schools or camps here, > but the definitions of or the situating of are not as clear-cut as your > concept of school seems to give. I could draw it out more but I realise > now that no-one here is interested. I, and Zan, I presume, (but I > should not presume, should I?) were trying to give a bit of flavour to > our situation, pointing to a narrowness of thinking and/or lack of > imagination. But that seems to be a general problem ... > > Jill > > > Yes, you do speak for me. Thank you! > > You're right about that last point, as well, Jill. I'm just more childishly > reactive when it comes to reading that sort of drivel. > > Zan Hi Zan, Thanks, as I truly didn't want to presume. And my reactive metre was up high as well - still is but, hey, it's nearly my birthday, so, being in the sign of the balance, I'm trying (very trying at times) to see and taste the other flavours. Don't care if they no int'rested in mine, or yours. Big wide world, keeping saying it, big wide world. You learn even if you don't like. All the best to you over on the Indian Ocean. Jill From elemenope at icubed.com Thu Oct 10 23:07:22 2002 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:07:22 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry Message-ID: The Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry is imbued by the spirit and example of the Lone Ranger. We intend to assert and defend the character and values of the Lone Ranger. At this time in American history, our persons as Americans are under attack by a line up of foes which stretch on a ridge line from the Red Guards to the killer of Pym Fortuyne to the Academe and Hollywood RadLibs and Jesse Jackson Shakedown Artistes at one end all the way around through Senator LieHee (who lied to his fellow Senator, Strom Thurmond -- definitely, a fatal mistake) to Saddam Charles Goliath Manson Hussein to Jihadistan Al Q maniacs. We, The Lone Star Rangers, will stand each of them down in turn and defeat them in every way necessary to secure our God given rights of Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness. Lone Star Ranger poets can be found in every walk of poetry: Formalist, Performance, L*A*N*G*U*A*G*E, Demented, Beat [Kerouac Wing], Surrealist Philosophical [Borges], Shakespearean [Shakespeare] -- and on, and on. Any of these styles of poetry can be turned to our ends. Mark this: Wallace Stevens and William Carlos Williams were members of the Republican Party. To know if you are either becoming or are already a Lone Star Ranger poet, ask yourself if you stand with President Bush at this High Noon moment in American history. If you would prefer to read Ann Coulter over, say, Caroline Forche, that would be another reckoning. At a recent 9/11 WTC reading on the patio at the art center, I read, _United Flight 93, The First Counterattack_, to an audience made up of RadLibs for the most part -- typical for this stage of the conflict in USA. Before I went to the podium, I realized in my gut that the audience would be "against" what I would offer them. But I realized I had two allies in spirit who ride with me, George Bush and Dick Cheney. And so, I turned my heart into a star, straightened my shoulders and strode to the podium where in my white suit a la Tom Wolfe and the Lone Ranger I gave forth full force. >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > 2. Re: Schools of poetry (ganesha) > 3. Re: Schools of poetry (ganesha) > 4. RE: Schools of poetry (Halvard Johnson) > 5. RE: Schools of poetry (jpjones at ihug.com.au) > 6. RE: Schools of poetry (Halvard Johnson) > 7. Schools of poetry (David Graham) > 8. Re: Schools of poetry (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > 9. Schools of poetry (David Graham) > 10. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > 11. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > 12. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > 13. Re: Schools of poetry (Jill Jones) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:20:22 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a school >> > to be >> > in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of competition >> > in >> > it. > >> Are you saying one should decide how to write by trying to figure out >> where there's the least competition? > >Zan is a poet, so has decided how to write. > >--Bob G. > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >From: "ganesha" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:05:42 +0800 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why can't poems >be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or impossibly >broad) line? I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment for my work. >I'm with Jill Jones -- there are only three people in my mode: me, myself, >and I. Don't particularly care about anyone else joining up. Besides, I'd >side with Groucho any day: "I don't want to be part of any [other] club that >would have me as a member." > >Zan > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:49 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >> >> >> > I'm with you about never being sure of Poetry School >> affiliations/membership >> > ... But I'm quite sure you're right about self-promotion and public >> > manifestos being necessary in the pursuit of recognition for same. (And >> > wasn't Pound glorious at the whole business?!!) >> >> > And Bob -- there is no one else who writes like me, as far as I can see, >> > which has frustrated people trying to review my work: no pigeon >> holes/trends >> > available. >> >> Are you saying your poetry has nothing in common with any other poetry? >> Every poet is unique, but every poet starts in the pigeonhole, poetry. In >> my taxonomy, every work a poet does has to be one of three kinds: songmode >> (traditional "formal"), plaintext (conventional freeverse) or burstnorm. >I >> don't know your poetry (sorry), but I'm sure just about all of it easily >> fits some school under those three categories. >> >> >I rather like this ... and the fact that there is often no >> > discernible narrative of any sort ... or a tidy ending in my pieces. >> >> Okay, but what techniques are you using? >> >> > Think I'll stay with David's proposed school of Dementia -- it's >'safest'. >> >> > Zan >> >> You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a school to >be >> in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of competition in >> it. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "NMSU" >> > To: >> > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 6:16 AM >> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >> > >> > >> > > One thing I have learned by teaching this schools of poetry class-is >> that >> > > you must have at least a few manifesto writers in the bunch or you're >> > going >> > > nowhere. Or a critic who's willing to do that work for you. Come to >> think >> > of >> > > it, the way, historically, people's work seems to become part of at >> least >> > a >> > > very minor canon is through not a small amount of self-promotion >through >> > > prose criticism and/or public performance. I am more and more thinking >> one >> > > need to be sure he or she is right and willing to proclaim it. (If you >> > want >> > > a list--start with Pound and move through your Norton Anthology). >These >> > > poets eventually change their minds--see Pound's movements through >> > > movements--and write some new manifestos OR they regret the reduction >> > naming >> > > their movement required and never affiliate again... >> > > >> > > never that sure about anything and therefore doomed to obscurity, >> > > >> > > Connie >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > New-Poetry mailing list >> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 3 >From: "ganesha" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:08:28 +0800 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Yeah -- how weird is that? It's like writing poetry for anyone other than >oneself ... which is another reason that should I ever be offered a poet >laureate, I shall refuse. Besides, it pays FA. > >Zan > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael Snider" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:43 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >> >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 05:49 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> > You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a school >> > to be >> > in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of competition >> > in >> > it. >> >> Are you saying one should decide how to write by trying to figure out >> where there's the least competition? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 4 >From: "Halvard Johnson" >To: >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:20:48 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those >other sui generis ones, okay? > >Hal "Balthus is a painter about whom nothing is known." > --Balthus >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > >{ Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why >can't poems >{ be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or impossibly >{ broad) line? I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment >for my work. >{ >{ Zan > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 5 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: jpjones at ihug.com.au >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 21:54:20 EST >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >> Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those >> other sui generis ones, okay? > >Hal, > >Your comment is cute, yes, but it has nothing to do with what both Zan and I >are talking about. > >I'm influenced, I learn, I read widely, I write over what's gone >before. I talk >to other poets, get ideas, disagree with them. All of that and more. >Sheesh, is >this stating the obvious, or what? Neither of us said or implied that our work >was sui generis. I certainly am not that naive. > >We were talking about schools and categorisations, we were talking about >exclusions, about how our work is received, or not, and how we deal with that. > >Jill > > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 6 >From: "Halvard Johnson" >To: >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:58:40 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. > >Hal > >{ > Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those >{ > other sui generis ones, okay? >{ >{ Hal, >{ >{ Your comment is cute, yes, but it has nothing to do with what >both Zan and I >{ are talking about. >{ >{ I'm influenced, I learn, I read widely, I write over what's >gone before. I talk >{ to other poets, get ideas, disagree with them. All of that and >more. Sheesh, is >{ this stating the obvious, or what? Neither of us said or >implied that our work >{ was sui generis. I certainly am not that naive. >{ >{ We were talking about schools and categorisations, we were talking about >{ exclusions, about how our work is received, or not, and how we >deal with that. >{ >{ Jill >{ >{ >{ >{ >{ >{ _______________________________________________ >{ New-Poetry mailing list >{ New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >{ http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >{ > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 7 >Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 22:40:15 -0500 >From: "David Graham" >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When the topic is poetic schools, I'm afraid I keep thinking of the Monty >Python bit from *Life of Brian*, when Brian is trying to persuade his >followers that he isn't the Messiah and they shouldn't follow him, etc. > >So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! >You're all *individuals*!" > >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most. >======================================== >David Graham >Professor of English, Ripon College >grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, >undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu >======================================= > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 8 >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:50:30 EDT >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >--part1_19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116_boundary >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, >grahamd at ripon.edu writes: >> So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! >> You're all *individuals*!" >> >> And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." >> >> Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" >> >> *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set >himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will >come round to him. > >--part1_19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116_boundary >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 10/9/2002 >10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: >SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
>
So, to the >assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself!
>You're all *individuals*!"
>
>And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals."
>
>Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!"
>
>*That *guy is the poet who interests me most.

>SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">
>What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single >man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the >great world will come round to him. > >--part1_19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116_boundary-- > >--__--__-- > >Message: 9 >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:00:52 -0500 >From: "David Graham" >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand >this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. > >--MS_Mac_OE_3117052852_1005776_MIME_Part >Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > grahamd at ripon.edu writes: >So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! >You're all *individuals*!" > >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set >himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will >come round to him. > >Ah, but books are for the scholar's idle times. When he can read God >directly, the hour is too precious to be wasted in other men's transcripts >of their readings. > >======================================== >David Graham >Professor of English, Ripon College >grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, >undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu >======================================= > >--MS_Mac_OE_3117052852_1005776_MIME_Part >Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > > > >Schools of poetry > > >
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: = >
>
So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like= > "Think for yourself!
>You're all *individuals*!"
>
>And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals."= >
>
>Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!"> >
>*That *guy is the poet who interests me most.
>

>
>What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set = >himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will c= >ome round to him.
>
>
Ah, but books are for the scholar's idle times.  When he = >can read God directly, the hour is too precious to be wasted in other men's = >transcripts of their readings.
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>David Graham
>Professor of English, Ripon College
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>   Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>   Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
>"We're writing the book on quality: personal,
>undergraduate education."
>   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > >--MS_Mac_OE_3117052852_1005776_MIME_Part-- > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 10 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 05:56:24 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C27021.C45917C0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >The school that ninety percent of poets think they belong to is the Oh, = >How Wonderfully Unclassifiable I Am School. > >--Bob G. > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=20 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:50 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, = >grahamd at ripon.edu writes:=20 > > So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for = >yourself!=20 > You're all *individuals*!" > > And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > > Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > > What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man = >set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great = >world will come round to him.=20 > >------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C27021.C45917C0 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > >
The school that ninety percent of poets think they = >belong to=20 >is the Oh, How Wonderfully Unclassifiable I Am School.
>
 
>
--Bob G.
>style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = >0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> >
----- Original Message -----
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = >black">From:=20 > title=3DRsgwynn1 at cs.com>Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=20 > >
To: href=3D"mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu"=20 > title=3Dnew-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu = >
>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, = >2002 12:50=20 > AM
>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] = >Schools of=20 > poetry
>

Roman" lang=3D0=20 > size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF">In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM = >Central=20 > Daylight Time, href=3D"mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu">grahamd at ripon.edu=20 > writes: style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
> style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = >MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20 > TYPE=3D"CITE">So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think = >for=20 > yourself!
You're all *individuals*!"

And of course they = >chant=20 > back in unison, "We're all individuals."

Except for that one = >wise guy=20 > in the back, who yells "I'm not!"

*That *guy is the poet who=20 > interests me most.
 face=3D"Times New Roman" lang=3D0 size=3D3 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: = >#ffffff"=20 > FAMILY=3D"SERIF">
What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is = >that if the=20 > single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, = >the great=20 > world will come round to him. = > > >------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C27021.C45917C0-- > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 11 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:07:03 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why can't >poems >> be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or impossibly >> broad) line? > >If someone asked you what kind of car you owned, assuming you won one, would >you say its uniqueness prevented you from describing it further? > >How can you believe that to categorize poetry means you can't ALSO examine >poems in their own terms, whatever that is? > >I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment for my work. >> I'm with Jill Jones -- there are only three people in my mode: me, myself, >> and I. Don't particularly care about anyone else joining up. Besides, >I'd >> side with Groucho any day: "I don't want to be part of any [other] club >that >> would have me as a member." > >This, alas, is the kind of response I always get whenever I try to get poets >to list schools of poetry. > >> Zan > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 12 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:09:53 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. >> >> Hal > >Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't make them >sui generis. > >--Bob G. > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 13 >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:48:40 +1000 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry >From: Jill Jones >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 08:09 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >>> Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. >>> >>> Hal >> >> Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't make >> them >> sui generis. > > >Oh right. it's so easy to be patronising, isn't it? I never said I >thought I was 'wonderfully' unclassifiable - I said "no-one knows where >to put you so you don't get put anywhere." I could think of various >ways I could be classified, discussed, whatever, but what passes for >criticism, at least in this country, is either fairly conservative or >undeveloped. It is also narrow so that those who produce some work that >might fit here and other work that might fir there and, yet again other >work ... etc appear to be too hard to classify and, therefore, are not >discussed or regarded much at all - by others, note. Serious >discussions about poetics are still not common round these parts though >maybe it is changing. > >My next comment was an ironic comment, " I guess me, myself and I form >our own small triumvirate". Silly me. (See, I can be patronising too. >What fun!) > >It's a big wide world and not everywhere is the same. But maybe that >doesn't interest this list. > >Jill > >_______________________________________________________ >Jill Jones >http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones > >Latest book: Screens Jets Heaven. Available now from Salt Publishing >http://www.saltpublishing.com > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Oct 11 01:33:25 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 00:33:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry Message-ID: <200210110532.g9B5WOs92669@mx15.mx.voyager.net> <<< I agree with what you say, David, but again, gender, please!! << Zan Take it up with Mr. R.W. Emerson, please, whose words I was stealing, in response to my man Sam doing same. He started it! ("The American Scholar," 1837.) For the record, I don't really agree with RWE. Gorgeous nonsense, as usual with that worthy. Sam, on the other hand, is usually right. . . . ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= ---------- From: "ganesha" To: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry Date: Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 8:06 PM What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will come round to him. Ah, but books are for the scholar's idle times. When he can read God directly, the hour is too precious to be wasted in other men's transcripts of their readings. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 11 05:49:06 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 05:49:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <00ae01c26f36$5bbdd5c0$63864cca@JROSS2> <001801c26f79$3ba39f20$f336fea9@j1c1k6> <001d01c27001$8da2f360$63864cca@JROSS2> <002a01c27044$c87cbbe0$c061fea9@j1c1k6> <003a01c270c4$bd661500$57864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <004201c2710b$71b8a360$e059fea9@j1c1k6> > Do you teach, Bob? > > Zan Not really, Zan--I'm a high school substitute teacher. Now to repeat a question: why are you willing to be classified as a poet but not willing to be classified as a particular kind of poet? Related question: do you think libraries should classify books or would you rather have them just shelve them randomly? --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 11 05:51:24 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 05:51:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry References: Message-ID: <004a01c2710b$c3707020$e059fea9@j1c1k6> Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response to my calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry that I've every gotten. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" To: Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 11:07 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry > The Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry is imbued by the spirit and > example of the Lone Ranger. We intend to assert and defend the > character and values of the Lone Ranger. At this time in American > history, our persons as Americans are under attack by a line up of > foes which stretch on a ridge line from the Red Guards to the killer > of Pym Fortuyne to the Academe and Hollywood RadLibs and Jesse > Jackson Shakedown Artistes at one end all the way around through > Senator LieHee (who lied to his fellow Senator, Strom Thurmond -- > definitely, a fatal mistake) to Saddam Charles Goliath Manson Hussein > to Jihadistan Al Q maniacs. We, The Lone Star Rangers, will stand > each of them down in turn and defeat them in every way necessary to > secure our God given rights of Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of > Happiness. > > Lone Star Ranger poets can be found in every walk of poetry: > Formalist, Performance, L*A*N*G*U*A*G*E, Demented, Beat [Kerouac > Wing], Surrealist Philosophical [Borges], Shakespearean [Shakespeare] > -- and on, and on. Any of these styles of poetry can be turned to > our ends. Mark this: Wallace Stevens and William Carlos Williams > were members of the Republican Party. > > To know if you are either becoming or are already a Lone Star Ranger > poet, ask yourself if you stand with President Bush at this High Noon > moment in American history. If you would prefer to read Ann Coulter > over, say, Caroline Forche, that would be another reckoning. > > At a recent 9/11 WTC reading on the patio at the art center, I read, > _United Flight 93, The First Counterattack_, to an audience made up > of RadLibs for the most part -- typical for this stage of the > conflict in USA. Before I went to the podium, I realized in my gut > that the audience would be "against" what I would offer them. > > But I realized I had two allies in spirit who ride with me, George > Bush and Dick Cheney. And so, I turned my heart into a star, > straightened my shoulders and strode to the podium where in my white > suit a la Tom Wolfe and the Lone Ranger I gave forth full force. > > > > > > >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > > 2. Re: Schools of poetry (ganesha) > > 3. Re: Schools of poetry (ganesha) > > 4. RE: Schools of poetry (Halvard Johnson) > > 5. RE: Schools of poetry (jpjones at ihug.com.au) > > 6. RE: Schools of poetry (Halvard Johnson) > > 7. Schools of poetry (David Graham) > > 8. Re: Schools of poetry (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > 9. Schools of poetry (David Graham) > > 10. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > > 11. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > > 12. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > > 13. Re: Schools of poetry (Jill Jones) > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 1 > >From: "Bob Grumman" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:20:22 -0400 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> > You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a school > >> > to be > >> > in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of competition > >> > in > >> > it. > > > >> Are you saying one should decide how to write by trying to figure out > >> where there's the least competition? > > > >Zan is a poet, so has decided how to write. > > > >--Bob G. > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 2 > >From: "ganesha" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:05:42 +0800 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why can't poems > >be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or impossibly > >broad) line? I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment for my work. > >I'm with Jill Jones -- there are only three people in my mode: me, myself, > >and I. Don't particularly care about anyone else joining up. Besides, I'd > >side with Groucho any day: "I don't want to be part of any [other] club that > >would have me as a member." > > > >Zan > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Bob Grumman" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:49 PM > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > > > >> > >> > >> > I'm with you about never being sure of Poetry School > >> affiliations/membership > >> > ... But I'm quite sure you're right about self-promotion and public > >> > manifestos being necessary in the pursuit of recognition for same. (And > >> > wasn't Pound glorious at the whole business?!!) > >> > >> > And Bob -- there is no one else who writes like me, as far as I can see, > >> > which has frustrated people trying to review my work: no pigeon > >> holes/trends > >> > available. > >> > >> Are you saying your poetry has nothing in common with any other poetry? > >> Every poet is unique, but every poet starts in the pigeonhole, poetry. In > >> my taxonomy, every work a poet does has to be one of three kinds: songmode > >> (traditional "formal"), plaintext (conventional freeverse) or burstnorm. > >I > >> don't know your poetry (sorry), but I'm sure just about all of it easily > >> fits some school under those three categories. > >> > >> >I rather like this ... and the fact that there is often no > >> > discernible narrative of any sort ... or a tidy ending in my pieces. > >> > >> Okay, but what techniques are you using? > >> > >> > Think I'll stay with David's proposed school of Dementia -- it's > >'safest'. > >> > >> > Zan > >> > >> You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a school to > >be > >> in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of competition in > >> it. > >> > >> --Bob G. > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "NMSU" > >> > To: > >> > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 6:16 AM > >> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >> > > >> > > >> > > One thing I have learned by teaching this schools of poetry class-is > >> that > >> > > you must have at least a few manifesto writers in the bunch or you're > >> > going > >> > > nowhere. Or a critic who's willing to do that work for you. Come to > >> think > >> > of > >> > > it, the way, historically, people's work seems to become part of at > >> least > >> > a > >> > > very minor canon is through not a small amount of self-promotion > >through > >> > > prose criticism and/or public performance. I am more and more thinking > >> one > >> > > need to be sure he or she is right and willing to proclaim it. (If you > >> > want > >> > > a list--start with Pound and move through your Norton Anthology). > >These > >> > > poets eventually change their minds--see Pound's movements through > >> > > movements--and write some new manifestos OR they regret the reduction > >> > naming > >> > > their movement required and never affiliate again... > >> > > > >> > > never that sure about anything and therefore doomed to obscurity, > >> > > > >> > > Connie > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > New-Poetry mailing list > >> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > New-Poetry mailing list > >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 3 > >From: "ganesha" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:08:28 +0800 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >Yeah -- how weird is that? It's like writing poetry for anyone other than > >oneself ... which is another reason that should I ever be offered a poet > >laureate, I shall refuse. Besides, it pays FA. > > > >Zan > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Michael Snider" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:43 PM > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > > > >> > >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 05:49 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > >> > You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a school > >> > to be > >> > in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of competition > >> > in > >> > it. > >> > >> Are you saying one should decide how to write by trying to figure out > >> where there's the least competition? > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 4 > >From: "Halvard Johnson" > >To: > >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:20:48 -0400 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those > >other sui generis ones, okay? > > > >Hal "Balthus is a painter about whom nothing is known." > > --Balthus > >Halvard Johnson > >=============== > >email: halvard at earthlink.net > >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > >{ Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why > >can't poems > >{ be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or impossibly > >{ broad) line? I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment > >for my work. > >{ > >{ Zan > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 5 > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >From: jpjones at ihug.com.au > >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 21:54:20 EST > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> > >> Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those > >> other sui generis ones, okay? > > > >Hal, > > > >Your comment is cute, yes, but it has nothing to do with what both Zan and I > >are talking about. > > > >I'm influenced, I learn, I read widely, I write over what's gone > >before. I talk > >to other poets, get ideas, disagree with them. All of that and more. > >Sheesh, is > >this stating the obvious, or what? Neither of us said or implied that our work > >was sui generis. I certainly am not that naive. > > > >We were talking about schools and categorisations, we were talking about > >exclusions, about how our work is received, or not, and how we deal with that. > > > >Jill > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 6 > >From: "Halvard Johnson" > >To: > >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:58:40 -0400 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. > > > >Hal > > > >{ > Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those > >{ > other sui generis ones, okay? > > >{ Hal, > > >{ Your comment is cute, yes, but it has nothing to do with what > >both Zan and I > >{ are talking about. > > >{ I'm influenced, I learn, I read widely, I write over what's > >gone before. I talk > >{ to other poets, get ideas, disagree with them. All of that and > >more. Sheesh, is > >{ this stating the obvious, or what? Neither of us said or > >implied that our work > >{ was sui generis. I certainly am not that naive. > > >{ We were talking about schools and categorisations, we were talking about > >{ exclusions, about how our work is received, or not, and how we > >deal with that. > > >{ Jill > > > > > > >{ _______________________________________________ > >{ New-Poetry mailing list > >{ New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >{ http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 7 > >Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 22:40:15 -0500 > >From: "David Graham" > >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >When the topic is poetic schools, I'm afraid I keep thinking of the Monty > >Python bit from *Life of Brian*, when Brian is trying to persuade his > >followers that he isn't the Messiah and they shouldn't follow him, etc. > > > >So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! > >You're all *individuals*!" > > > >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > > > >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > > >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > >======================================== > >David Graham > >Professor of English, Ripon College > >grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, > >undergraduate education." > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > >======================================= > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 8 > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:50:30 EDT > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >--part1_19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116_boundary > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, > >grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > >> So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! > >> You're all *individuals*!" > >> > >> And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > >> > >> Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > >> > >> *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > > >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set > >himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will > >come round to him. > > > >--part1_19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116_boundary > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > >FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 10/9/2002 > >10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > >SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
> >
So, to the > >assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself!
> >You're all *individuals*!"
> >
> >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals."
> >
> >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!"
> >
> >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most.

> > >SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">
> >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single > >man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the > >great world will come round to him. > > > >--part1_19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116_boundary-- > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 9 > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:00:52 -0500 > >From: "David Graham" > >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand > >this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. > > > >--MS_Mac_OE_3117052852_1005776_MIME_Part > >Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > > > grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > >So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! > >You're all *individuals*!" > > > >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > > > >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > > >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > > > > >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set > >himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will > >come round to him. > > > >Ah, but books are for the scholar's idle times. When he can read God > >directly, the hour is too precious to be wasted in other men's transcripts > >of their readings. > > > >======================================== > >David Graham > >Professor of English, Ripon College > >grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, > >undergraduate education." > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > >======================================= > > > >--MS_Mac_OE_3117052852_1005776_MIME_Part > >Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > >Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > >Schools of poetry > > > > > >
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: = > >
> >
So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like= > > "Think for yourself!
> >You're all *individuals*!"
> >
> >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals."= > >
> >
> >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" >> > >
> >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most.
> >

> >
> >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set = > >himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will c= > >ome round to him.
> >
> >
Ah, but books are for the scholar's idle times.  When he = > >can read God directly, the hour is too precious to be wasted in other men's = > >transcripts of their readings.
> >
> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >David Graham
> >Professor of English, Ripon College
> >grahamd at ripon.edu
> >   Home Page:
> >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >   Poetry Library:
> >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >
> >"We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> >undergraduate education."
> >   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > > > > >--MS_Mac_OE_3117052852_1005776_MIME_Part-- > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 10 > >From: "Bob Grumman" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 05:56:24 -0400 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > > >------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C27021.C45917C0 > >Content-Type: text/plain; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >The school that ninety percent of poets think they belong to is the Oh, = > >How Wonderfully Unclassifiable I Am School. > > > >--Bob G. > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=20 > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:50 AM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > > > > In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, = > >grahamd at ripon.edu writes:=20 > > > > So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for = > >yourself!=20 > > You're all *individuals*!" > > > > And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > > > > Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > > > *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > > > > > What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man = > >set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great = > >world will come round to him.=20 > > > >------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C27021.C45917C0 > >Content-Type: text/html; > > charset="iso-8859-1" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > > > > > > >
The school that ninety percent of poets think they = > >belong to=20 > >is the Oh, How Wonderfully Unclassifiable I Am School.
> >
 
> >
--Bob G.
> > >style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = > >0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> > >
----- Original Message -----
> > > style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = > >black">From:=20 > > >title=3DRsgwynn1 at cs.com>Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=20 > > > >
To: > href=3D"mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu"=20 > > title=3Dnew-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu = > >
> >
Sent: Thursday, October 10, = > >2002 12:50=20 > > AM
> >
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] = > >Schools of=20 > > poetry
> >

>Roman" lang=3D0=20 > > size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF">In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM = > >Central=20 > > Daylight Time, >href=3D"mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu">grahamd at ripon.edu=20 > > writes: > style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
> > > style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = > >MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20 > > TYPE=3D"CITE">So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think = > >for=20 > > yourself!
You're all *individuals*!"

And of course they = > >chant=20 > > back in unison, "We're all individuals."

Except for that one = > >wise guy=20 > > in the back, who yells "I'm not!"

*That *guy is the poet who=20 > > interests me most.
 > face=3D"Times New Roman" lang=3D0 size=3D3 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: = > >#ffffff"=20 > > FAMILY=3D"SERIF">
What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is = > >that if the=20 > > single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, = > >the great=20 > > world will come round to him. = > > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C27021.C45917C0-- > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 11 > >From: "Bob Grumman" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:07:03 -0400 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why can't > >poems > >> be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or impossibly > >> broad) line? > > > >If someone asked you what kind of car you owned, assuming you won one, would > >you say its uniqueness prevented you from describing it further? > > > >How can you believe that to categorize poetry means you can't ALSO examine > >poems in their own terms, whatever that is? > > > >I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment for my work. > >> I'm with Jill Jones -- there are only three people in my mode: me, myself, > >> and I. Don't particularly care about anyone else joining up. Besides, > >I'd > >> side with Groucho any day: "I don't want to be part of any [other] club > >that > >> would have me as a member." > > > >This, alas, is the kind of response I always get whenever I try to get poets > >to list schools of poetry. > > > >> Zan > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 12 > >From: "Bob Grumman" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:09:53 -0400 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. > >> > >> Hal > > > >Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't make them > >sui generis. > > > >--Bob G. > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 13 > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:48:40 +1000 > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > >From: Jill Jones > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 08:09 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > >>> Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. > >>> > >>> Hal > >> > >> Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't make > >> them > >> sui generis. > > > > > >Oh right. it's so easy to be patronising, isn't it? I never said I > >thought I was 'wonderfully' unclassifiable - I said "no-one knows where > >to put you so you don't get put anywhere." I could think of various > >ways I could be classified, discussed, whatever, but what passes for > >criticism, at least in this country, is either fairly conservative or > >undeveloped. It is also narrow so that those who produce some work that > >might fit here and other work that might fir there and, yet again other > >work ... etc appear to be too hard to classify and, therefore, are not > >discussed or regarded much at all - by others, note. Serious > >discussions about poetics are still not common round these parts though > >maybe it is changing. > > > >My next comment was an ironic comment, " I guess me, myself and I form > >our own small triumvirate". Silly me. (See, I can be patronising too. > >What fun!) > > > >It's a big wide world and not everywhere is the same. But maybe that > >doesn't interest this list. > > > >Jill > > > >_______________________________________________________ > >Jill Jones > >http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones > > > >Latest book: Screens Jets Heaven. Available now from Salt Publishing > >http://www.saltpublishing.com > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >End of New-Poetry Digest > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From elemenope at icubed.com Fri Oct 11 06:26:53 2002 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:26:53 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response to my calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry that I've every gotten. In-Reply-To: <200210110950.g9B9o3621879@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200210110950.g9B9o3621879@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: >Let this Lone Star Ranger correct the substitute teacher on the >spelling of the word, "ever." As I recall, Black Bart's dope gofors draw their guns and go, "That mask sure is stupid, gulunk hah hah," before The Lone Ranger blasts their merde eating RadLib grins off their Prozac faces. -- From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Oct 11 08:34:27 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:34:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In-Reply-To: <004201c2710b$71b8a360$e059fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: { Related question: do you think libraries should classify books or would you { rather have them just shelve them randomly? { { --Bob G. As for libraries, I'd rather books be classified. Around the house, though, I like books shelved more or less randomly. I can't always find what I'm looking for, but I often find what I need. Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu Thu Oct 10 20:47:00 2002 From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:47:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry Message-ID: It seems to me that schools of poetry were determined by scholars of literature as an Aristotelian means of categorizing aesthetic movements symptomatic of a given time or age. Especially since the "New Critics," the approach to interpreting poetry valorized certain poets and devalued others, emphasizing art for art's sake, the importance of irony, etc. In order to validate shifts in artistic consciousness, certain poets began to categorize themselves: Pound & Eliot; the "Beat" movement; the Objectivists; the Expansive Poets; the Language Poets. Since academia is one market where a mass of students are required to read assigned works of literature, to be part of a literary movement is a selling point for many writers. However, in the actual world of writing, thinking in schools leads to following the herd, an instinct that might result in greater marketability but not necessarily in worthwhile poetry. Most writers whom I know, wherther making fiction or poetry, do not think in schools, and many refuse to be categorized. Michael Karl (Ritchie) From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 11 09:09:23 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 06:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality In-Reply-To: <001401c270c2$45147490$57864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <20021011130923.39097.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Okay--I see your point here, but you can't be serious, right? I mean, all language is sexist--English being one of the least sexist. At lease we don't have masculine and feminine endings for nouns like "pen" or "jacket." My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another. Of course, Zan, this is just my opinion. Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote:As usual, it's the male gender standing in/speaking for everyone. sigh. Zan----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:50 PMSubject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! You're all *individuals*!" And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will come round to him. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Oct 11 09:51:21 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:51:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] New from Verse Press: Message-ID: <15f.157a2e45.2ad83159@aol.com> Subj: [versepress] New from Verse Press: Date: 10/7/02 2:52:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: brett at versepress.org (verse_press) Reply-to: versepress-owner at yahoogroups.com To: versepress at yahoogroups.com --- NICE HAT. THANKS. Collaborative poems by Joshua Beckman and Matthew Rohrer (Paperback, $10 at http://www.versepress.org/catalog.html and from Small Press Distribution) Nice Hat. Thanks. transcribes recorded improvised poetic collaborations between two award-winning poets, Joshua Beckman and Matthew Rohrer. Clever, often funny, and stylistically subtle, the poems on the page are a record of two innovative poetic voices engaged in serious play. Live public performances of these collaborations have met with excitement and enthusiasm in New York City, and Nice Hat. Thanks promises to be a unique event in contemporary poetry. JOSHUA BECKMAN AND MATTHEW ROHRER TAKE COLLABORATIVE POEMS ON THE ROAD Beckman and Rohrer are taking their collaborative poems across the country this fall, and you can participate. At each of their readings, the two poets will create new poems, using cues and suggestions from the audience. These live improvisations will comprise an epic American poem, composed live in bars, bookstores and classrooms across the country. See them in your city, and follow their tour (and the new poems) online at the Nice Hat. Thanks. Notes from the Road page: http://www.versepress.org/guestbook/guestbook.html TOUR DATES: (check http://www.versepress.org/auth_events.html for updates and further info.) October 11: CODY'S BOOKSTORE, Berkeley, CA October 12: TSUNAMI BOOKS, Eugene, OR October 13: PACIFIC SWITCHBOARD, w/ David Beispeill, Portland, OR October 14: OREGON STATE UNIVERSITY, Corvallis, OR October 15: UNIV. OF WASHINGTON, Seattle, WA October 18: CODY'S CAFE, Cincinnati, OH October 19: Nashville, TN October 20: New Orleans, LA October 21: THE CHUKKER, Tuscaloosa, AB October 22: Atlanta, GA October 23: UNC, Greensboro, NC October 24: UNC, Charlotte, NC October 25: BARNES AND NOBLE, w/ Terence Winch, Washington, D.C. October 31: BAR BARBES, Brooklyn, NY November 1: VERSE PRESS, Amherst, MA BOOKS BY THE AUTHORS: Joshua Beckman and Matthew Rohrer Nice Hat. Thanks. (Verse Press, Fall 2002) $10.00. ISBN: 0-9723487-0-0 Joshua Beckman, Something I Expected to Be Different (Verse Press, Spring 2001) $12.00. ISBN: 0-9703672-4-4 Matthew Rohrer, Satellite (Verse Press, Spring 2001) $12.00. ISBN: 0-9703672-3-6 ALSO FROM VERSE PRESS A Beaker: New and Selected Poems by CAROLINE KNOX $14 Winter Sex by KATY LEDERER $12 Hat on a Pond by DARA WIER. $13 Dreams of a Robot Dancing Bee: Stories, by JAMES TATE. $23 Something I Expected to be Different, by JOSHUA BECKMAN. $12 Satellite, by MATTHEW ROHRER. $12 Oubliette, by PETER RICHARDS. $12 Letters to Wendy's by JOE WENDEROTH. $14 Terrain Vague, by RICHARD MEIER $12 Titles currently available directly from Verse Press as well as from Small Press Distribution and your local bookstore. FORTHCOMING 2002 TITLES Given by ARIELLE GREENBERG The Yellow Hotel by DIANE WALD THIS LISTSERV This listserv will be used periodical to inform of publication dates, Verse Press author appearances, Verse Prize contest information and updates to the Verse Press website. If you wish to unsubscribe please follow the instructions below, and accept our apologies for this mass mailing. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: versepress-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Oct 11 10:31:07 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:31:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry References: <004a01c2710b$c3707020$e059fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <00f101c27132$d62ef3e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Really makes one appreciate Billie, doesn't it? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 5:51 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry > Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response to my calls over the > years for a list of schools of poetry that I've every gotten. > > --Bob G. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 11:07 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry > > > > The Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry is imbued by the spirit and > > example of the Lone Ranger. We intend to assert and defend the > > character and values of the Lone Ranger. At this time in American > > history, our persons as Americans are under attack by a line up of > > foes which stretch on a ridge line from the Red Guards to the killer > > of Pym Fortuyne to the Academe and Hollywood RadLibs and Jesse > > Jackson Shakedown Artistes at one end all the way around through > > Senator LieHee (who lied to his fellow Senator, Strom Thurmond -- > > definitely, a fatal mistake) to Saddam Charles Goliath Manson Hussein > > to Jihadistan Al Q maniacs. We, The Lone Star Rangers, will stand > > each of them down in turn and defeat them in every way necessary to > > secure our God given rights of Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of > > Happiness. > > > > Lone Star Ranger poets can be found in every walk of poetry: > > Formalist, Performance, L*A*N*G*U*A*G*E, Demented, Beat [Kerouac > > Wing], Surrealist Philosophical [Borges], Shakespearean [Shakespeare] > > -- and on, and on. Any of these styles of poetry can be turned to > > our ends. Mark this: Wallace Stevens and William Carlos Williams > > were members of the Republican Party. > > > > To know if you are either becoming or are already a Lone Star Ranger > > poet, ask yourself if you stand with President Bush at this High Noon > > moment in American history. If you would prefer to read Ann Coulter > > over, say, Caroline Forche, that would be another reckoning. > > > > At a recent 9/11 WTC reading on the patio at the art center, I read, > > _United Flight 93, The First Counterattack_, to an audience made up > > of RadLibs for the most part -- typical for this stage of the > > conflict in USA. Before I went to the podium, I realized in my gut > > that the audience would be "against" what I would offer them. > > > > But I realized I had two allies in spirit who ride with me, George > > Bush and Dick Cheney. And so, I turned my heart into a star, > > straightened my shoulders and strode to the podium where in my white > > suit a la Tom Wolfe and the Lone Ranger I gave forth full force. > > > > > > > > > > > > >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > > > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > > > 2. Re: Schools of poetry (ganesha) > > > 3. Re: Schools of poetry (ganesha) > > > 4. RE: Schools of poetry (Halvard Johnson) > > > 5. RE: Schools of poetry (jpjones at ihug.com.au) > > > 6. RE: Schools of poetry (Halvard Johnson) > > > 7. Schools of poetry (David Graham) > > > 8. Re: Schools of poetry (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > > 9. Schools of poetry (David Graham) > > > 10. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > > > 11. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > > > 12. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > > > 13. Re: Schools of poetry (Jill Jones) > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 1 > > >From: "Bob Grumman" > > >To: > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:20:22 -0400 > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >> > You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a > school > > >> > to be > > >> > in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of > competition > > >> > in > > >> > it. > > > > > >> Are you saying one should decide how to write by trying to figure out > > >> where there's the least competition? > > > > > >Zan is a poet, so has decided how to write. > > > > > >--Bob G. > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 2 > > >From: "ganesha" > > >To: > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:05:42 +0800 > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why can't > poems > > >be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or impossibly > > >broad) line? I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment for my > work. > > >I'm with Jill Jones -- there are only three people in my mode: me, > myself, > > >and I. Don't particularly care about anyone else joining up. Besides, > I'd > > >side with Groucho any day: "I don't want to be part of any [other] club > that > > >would have me as a member." > > > > > >Zan > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Bob Grumman" > > >To: > > >Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:49 PM > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > I'm with you about never being sure of Poetry School > > >> affiliations/membership > > >> > ... But I'm quite sure you're right about self-promotion and public > > >> > manifestos being necessary in the pursuit of recognition for same. > (And > > >> > wasn't Pound glorious at the whole business?!!) > > >> > > >> > And Bob -- there is no one else who writes like me, as far as I can > see, > > >> > which has frustrated people trying to review my work: no pigeon > > >> holes/trends > > >> > available. > > >> > > >> Are you saying your poetry has nothing in common with any other > poetry? > > >> Every poet is unique, but every poet starts in the pigeonhole, poetry. > In > > >> my taxonomy, every work a poet does has to be one of three kinds: > songmode > > >> (traditional "formal"), plaintext (conventional freeverse) or > burstnorm. > > >I > > >> don't know your poetry (sorry), but I'm sure just about all of it > easily > > >> fits some school under those three categories. > > >> > > >> >I rather like this ... and the fact that there is often no > > >> > discernible narrative of any sort ... or a tidy ending in my pieces. > > >> > > >> Okay, but what techniques are you using? > > >> > > >> > Think I'll stay with David's proposed school of Dementia -- it's > > >'safest'. > > >> > > >> > Zan > > >> > > >> You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a school > to > > >be > > >> in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of competition > in > > >> it. > > >> > > >> --Bob G. > > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: "NMSU" > > >> > To: > > >> > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 6:16 AM > > >> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > One thing I have learned by teaching this schools of poetry > class-is > > >> that > > >> > > you must have at least a few manifesto writers in the bunch or > you're > > >> > going > > >> > > nowhere. Or a critic who's willing to do that work for you. Come > to > > >> think > > >> > of > > >> > > it, the way, historically, people's work seems to become part of > at > > >> least > > >> > a > > >> > > very minor canon is through not a small amount of self-promotion > > >through > > >> > > prose criticism and/or public performance. I am more and more > thinking > > >> one > > >> > > need to be sure he or she is right and willing to proclaim it. (If > you > > >> > want > > >> > > a list--start with Pound and move through your Norton Anthology). > > >These > > >> > > poets eventually change their minds--see Pound's movements through > > >> > > movements--and write some new manifestos OR they regret the > reduction > > >> > naming > > >> > > their movement required and never affiliate again... > > >> > > > > >> > > never that sure about anything and therefore doomed to obscurity, > > >> > > > > >> > > Connie > > >> > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > >> > > New-Poetry mailing list > > >> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > New-Poetry mailing list > > >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> New-Poetry mailing list > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 3 > > >From: "ganesha" > > >To: > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:08:28 +0800 > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >Yeah -- how weird is that? It's like writing poetry for anyone other > than > > >oneself ... which is another reason that should I ever be offered a poet > > >laureate, I shall refuse. Besides, it pays FA. > > > > > >Zan > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Michael Snider" > > >To: > > >Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:43 PM > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > > > > > > >> > > >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 05:49 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > >> > You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a > school > > >> > to be > > >> > in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of > competition > > >> > in > > >> > it. > > >> > > >> Are you saying one should decide how to write by trying to figure out > > >> where there's the least competition? > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> New-Poetry mailing list > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 4 > > >From: "Halvard Johnson" > > >To: > > >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:20:48 -0400 > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > > >Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those > > >other sui generis ones, okay? > > > > > >Hal "Balthus is a painter about whom nothing is known." > > > --Balthus > > >Halvard Johnson > > >=============== > > >email: halvard at earthlink.net > > >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > > > >{ Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why > > >can't poems > > >{ be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or > impossibly > > >{ broad) line? I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment > > >for my work. > > >{ > > >{ Zan > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 5 > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >From: jpjones at ihug.com.au > > >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 21:54:20 EST > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >> > > >> Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those > > >> other sui generis ones, okay? > > > > > >Hal, > > > > > >Your comment is cute, yes, but it has nothing to do with what both Zan > and I > > >are talking about. > > > > > >I'm influenced, I learn, I read widely, I write over what's gone > > >before. I talk > > >to other poets, get ideas, disagree with them. All of that and more. > > >Sheesh, is > > >this stating the obvious, or what? Neither of us said or implied that our > work > > >was sui generis. I certainly am not that naive. > > > > > >We were talking about schools and categorisations, we were talking about > > >exclusions, about how our work is received, or not, and how we deal with > that. > > > > > >Jill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 6 > > >From: "Halvard Johnson" > > >To: > > >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:58:40 -0400 > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. > > > > > >Hal > > > > > >{ > Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those > > >{ > other sui generis ones, okay? > > > > > >{ Hal, > > > > > >{ Your comment is cute, yes, but it has nothing to do with what > > >both Zan and I > > >{ are talking about. > > > > > >{ I'm influenced, I learn, I read widely, I write over what's > > >gone before. I talk > > >{ to other poets, get ideas, disagree with them. All of that and > > >more. Sheesh, is > > >{ this stating the obvious, or what? Neither of us said or > > >implied that our work > > >{ was sui generis. I certainly am not that naive. > > > > > >{ We were talking about schools and categorisations, we were talking > about > > >{ exclusions, about how our work is received, or not, and how we > > >deal with that. > > > > > >{ Jill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >{ _______________________________________________ > > >{ New-Poetry mailing list > > >{ New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >{ http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 7 > > >Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 22:40:15 -0500 > > >From: "David Graham" > > >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >When the topic is poetic schools, I'm afraid I keep thinking of the Monty > > >Python bit from *Life of Brian*, when Brian is trying to persuade his > > >followers that he isn't the Messiah and they shouldn't follow him, etc. > > > > > >So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! > > >You're all *individuals*!" > > > > > >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > > > > > >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > > > > >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > >======================================== > > >David Graham > > >Professor of English, Ripon College > > >grahamd at ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > Poetry Library: > > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > > > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, > > >undergraduate education." > > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > > >======================================= > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 8 > > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:50:30 EDT > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > > >--part1_19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116_boundary > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > >In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, > > >grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > >> So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! > > >> You're all *individuals*!" > > >> > > >> And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > > >> > > >> Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > >> > > >> *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > > > > >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man > set > > >himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world > will > > >come round to him. > > > > > >--part1_19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116_boundary > > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > >FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 10/9/2002 > > >10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > > > >SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
> > >
So, to the > > >assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself!
> > >You're all *individuals*!"
> > >
> > >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals."
> > >
> > >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!"
> > >
> > >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most.

> > > > >SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">
> > >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single > > >man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the > > >great world will come round to him. > > > > > >--part1_19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116_boundary-- > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 9 > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:00:52 -0500 > > >From: "David Graham" > > >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not > understand > > >this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. > > > > > >--MS_Mac_OE_3117052852_1005776_MIME_Part > > >Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > > > > > grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > >So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! > > >You're all *individuals*!" > > > > > >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > > > > > >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > > > > >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > > > > > > > >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man > set > > >himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world > will > > >come round to him. > > > > > >Ah, but books are for the scholar's idle times. When he can read God > > >directly, the hour is too precious to be wasted in other men's > transcripts > > >of their readings. > > > > > >======================================== > > >David Graham > > >Professor of English, Ripon College > > >grahamd at ripon.edu > > > Home Page: > > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > Poetry Library: > > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > > > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, > > >undergraduate education." > > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > > >======================================= > > > > > >--MS_Mac_OE_3117052852_1005776_MIME_Part > > >Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > > >Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > > > > > >Schools of poetry > > > > > > > > >
grahamd at ripon.edu > writes: = > > >
> > >
So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things > like= > > > "Think for yourself!
> > >You're all *individuals*!"
> > >
> > >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all > individuals."= > > >
> > >
> > >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm > not!" > >> > > >
> > >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most.
> > >

> > >
> > >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man > set = > > >himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world > will c= > > >ome round to him.
> > >
> > >
Ah, but books are for the scholar's idle times.  When > he = > > >can read God directly, the hour is too precious to be wasted in other > men's = > > >transcripts of their readings.
> > >
> > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > >David Graham
> > >Professor of English, Ripon College
> > >grahamd at ripon.edu
> > >   Home Page:
> > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> > >   Poetry Library:
> > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> > >
> > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> > >undergraduate education."
> > >   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > > > > > > > > >--MS_Mac_OE_3117052852_1005776_MIME_Part-- > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 10 > > >From: "Bob Grumman" > > >To: > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 05:56:24 -0400 > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C27021.C45917C0 > > >Content-Type: text/plain; > > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > >The school that ninety percent of poets think they belong to is the Oh, = > > >How Wonderfully Unclassifiable I Am School. > > > > > >--Bob G. > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=20 > > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:50 AM > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, = > > >grahamd at ripon.edu writes:=20 > > > > > > So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for = > > >yourself!=20 > > > You're all *individuals*!" > > > > > > And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > > > > > > Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > > > > > *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > > > > > > > > What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man > = > > >set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great = > > >world will come round to him.=20 > > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C27021.C45917C0 > > >Content-Type: text/html; > > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
The school that ninety percent of poets think they = > > >belong to=20 > > >is the Oh, How Wonderfully Unclassifiable I Am School.
> > >
 
> > >
--Bob G.
> > > > >style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: > = > > >0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> > > >
----- Original Message -----
> > > > > style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = > > >black">From:=20 > > > > >title=3DRsgwynn1 at cs.com>Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=20 > > > > > >
To: > > href=3D"mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu"=20 > > > title=3Dnew-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu = > > >
> > >
Sent: Thursday, October 10, = > > >2002 12:50=20 > > > AM
> > >
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] = > > >Schools of=20 > > > poetry
> > >

> >Roman" lang=3D0=20 > > > size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF">In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM = > > >Central=20 > > > Daylight Time, > >href=3D"mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu">grahamd at ripon.edu=20 > > > writes: > > style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
> > > > > style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = > > >MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20 > > > TYPE=3D"CITE">So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think > = > > >for=20 > > > yourself!
You're all *individuals*!"

And of course they = > > >chant=20 > > > back in unison, "We're all individuals."

Except for that one > = > > >wise guy=20 > > > in the back, who yells "I'm not!"

*That *guy is the poet > who=20 > > > interests me most.
 > > face=3D"Times New Roman" lang=3D0 size=3D3 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: > = > > >#ffffff"=20 > > > FAMILY=3D"SERIF">
What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is = > > >that if the=20 > > > single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, = > > >the great=20 > > > world will come round to him. = > > > > > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C27021.C45917C0-- > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 11 > > >From: "Bob Grumman" > > >To: > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:07:03 -0400 > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >> Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why can't > > >poems > > >> be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or > impossibly > > >> broad) line? > > > > > >If someone asked you what kind of car you owned, assuming you won one, > would > > >you say its uniqueness prevented you from describing it further? > > > > > >How can you believe that to categorize poetry means you can't ALSO > examine > > >poems in their own terms, whatever that is? > > > > > >I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment for my work. > > >> I'm with Jill Jones -- there are only three people in my mode: me, > myself, > > >> and I. Don't particularly care about anyone else joining up. > Besides, > > >I'd > > >> side with Groucho any day: "I don't want to be part of any [other] > club > > >that > > >> would have me as a member." > > > > > >This, alas, is the kind of response I always get whenever I try to get > poets > > >to list schools of poetry. > > > > > >> Zan > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 12 > > >From: "Bob Grumman" > > >To: > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:09:53 -0400 > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >> Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. > > >> > > >> Hal > > > > > >Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't make > them > > >sui generis. > > > > > >--Bob G. > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >Message: 13 > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:48:40 +1000 > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > >From: Jill Jones > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > > >On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 08:09 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > >>> Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. > > >>> > > >>> Hal > > >> > > >> Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't make > > >> them > > >> sui generis. > > > > > > > > >Oh right. it's so easy to be patronising, isn't it? I never said I > > >thought I was 'wonderfully' unclassifiable - I said "no-one knows where > > >to put you so you don't get put anywhere." I could think of various > > >ways I could be classified, discussed, whatever, but what passes for > > >criticism, at least in this country, is either fairly conservative or > > >undeveloped. It is also narrow so that those who produce some work that > > >might fit here and other work that might fir there and, yet again other > > >work ... etc appear to be too hard to classify and, therefore, are not > > >discussed or regarded much at all - by others, note. Serious > > >discussions about poetics are still not common round these parts though > > >maybe it is changing. > > > > > >My next comment was an ironic comment, " I guess me, myself and I form > > >our own small triumvirate". Silly me. (See, I can be patronising too. > > >What fun!) > > > > > >It's a big wide world and not everywhere is the same. But maybe that > > >doesn't interest this list. > > > > > >Jill > > > > > >_______________________________________________________ > > >Jill Jones > > >http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones > > > > > >Latest book: Screens Jets Heaven. Available now from Salt Publishing > > >http://www.saltpublishing.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >New-Poetry mailing list > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > >End of New-Poetry Digest > > > > > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Fri Oct 11 11:03:01 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:03:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] call for submissions--housesitting anthology Message-ID: <14f.15af96bb.2ad84225@aol.com> Subj: call for submissions--housesitting anthology--please share Date: 10/10/02 11:39:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: MohringR To: MohringR BCC: JforJames Anthology seeking essays, poetry and fiction about housesitting, exploring range of experiences and perceptions, i.e., identity, ownership, personal space.? All points of view and approaches (humorous, meditative, etc.) welcome.? Email rmohring at bucknell.edu for guidelines.?Send manuscripts to Housesitting Anthology, c/o Mohring, Stadler Center for Poetry, Bucknell University, Lewisburg, PA 17837.? Postmark deadline for submissions: March 1, 2003. From JforJames at aol.com Fri Oct 11 11:12:58 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:12:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently on (Silliman's) The Blog Message-ID: <12f.18ed06ad.2ad8447a@aol.com> Subject: Recently on The Blog From: "Ron Silliman" Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 15:14:16 +0000 X-Message-Number: 4 ?X Eliot Weinberger on Objectivism, the New American Poetry & the 1950s ?X Reading The Actualist Anthology 25 years later ?X Poetry & the problem of themes: the examples of Chain & Poetics Journal ?X Poetry & the problem of themes: Amiri Baraka blows up America ?X Kit Robinson??s The Crave ?X David Bromige??s As in T as in Tether ?X 3 readings in NYC, October 15 & 16 ?X Why somebody needs to edit an anthology of the Spicer Circle ?X Lorine Niedecker & Besmilr Brigham ?X Anselm Hollo??s latest collection of sonnets ?X Michael Lally??s anthology None of the Above Reconstructing the 1970s ?X Poetry as conflict All at Silliman??s Blog: http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Oct 11 12:14:57 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:14:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka analysis Message-ID: An amusing analysis of Baraka's now-famous poem, by John Derbyshire: >Most of the poem, in fact, is in the interrogative mood. 162 of the 226 lines begin with the word "Who." >Who do Tom Ass Clarence work for >Who doo doo come out the Colon's mouth >Who know what kind of Skeeza is a Condoleeza >Who pay Connelly [sic] to be a wooden negro >A little exegesis is called for here, I think. "Tom Ass Clarence" is Clarence Thomas, a hate figure to black radicals, who think that writing his name that way is screamingly funny, even after eleven years of doing it. "The Colon" is Colin Powell ? this is another thigh-slapper around the black-studies department watercooler. A "skeeza" is a woman with a bad reputation. "Condoleeza" is of course Dr. Condoleezza Rice, the president's national-security adviser, one of the smartest women in America (Nicholas Lemann has a good profile of her in the Oct. 14-21 New Yorker), and "Connelly" must be Ward Connerly, the well-known opponent of race quotas, another hate figure to the blacker-than-thou crowd. >So what is the answer to all these questions? Even rhetorical questions have answers, you know. If you have any acquaintance with black radicals, you might suspect that the answer is: the Jews. (To make a Jesse Jacksonism out of it: "The answer to the whos / Is the 13-letter-expletive Jews / Ain't no use askin' 'Why me?' / We pinned it on you, Hymie.") There is indeed some supporting evidence for this suspicion. There are the lines above, obviously, and also: >Who know who decide Jesus get crucified This seems to be a rephrasing of the oldest anti-Semitic cry of all: They killed Our Lord! And then again: Who know why five Israelis was filming the explosion And cracking they sides at the notion Looks like for sure it's those bloodsucking Jews. But wait a minute: at line 162 we have: Who put the Jews in ovens, and who helped them do it Mr. Baraka is a self-declared communist, you see. Line 161: "Who put a price on Lenin's head." (Whoever it was, I'd like to shake his hand. ? JD) He is also a black man. Now, Hitler thought blacks were an inferior race, and he also persecuted communists. Mr. Baraka therefore feels under a double compulsion to dislike Hitler. But, whoa! ? Hitler killed Jews, didn't he? And Jews are evil, aren't they? You might think this would be a tough circle for Mr. Baraka to square. Not a bit of it. Some of those Jews were communists, you see. Line 166: "Who killed Rosa Luxembourg [sic... I'm going to leave out the sics from now on ? just take it from me, the spelling of proper names is not Mr. Baraka's strong suit. Spelling, after all, is just another one of those soul-constricting Ice People gimmicks], Liebneckt / Who murdered the Rosenbergs..." Communism trumps Jewishness, you see. Communists are, in fact, sort of honorary black people ? even when they're Jewish! And a black communist is, of course, to die for: "Who poison Robeson / Who try to put Du Bois in jail." This still leaves us with some puzzles. "Who backed Batista, Hitler, Bilbo, / Chiang kai Chek." Leaving aside the Hobbit ? how did he get in there? ? and the pre-Castro Cuban dictator (whose regime was described by U.S. ambassador Sumner Wells as "frankly communistic," and who was praised by the communist leader Blas Roca as "the father of the Popular Front"), at least part of the answer in the case of the other two was: Stalin. The Soviet dictator went into alliance with Hitler, after all, and sold him all the war materiel he'd take. He backed Chiang Kai-shek to the very end. The last person Chiang shook hands with on the Chinese mainland, before departing for exile in Taiwan, was the Soviet ambassador. Mere historical truth is of course beneath the notice of a poetic genius like Amiri Baraka. If you actually try answering some of his questions, in fact, you get into some very confusing terrain. "Who killed the most Africans?" Other Africans, without any doubt. Tribal warfare has been endemic in Africa since remote antiquity, except for the few brief decades when European colonizers suppressed it. "Who bought the slaves, who sold them?" Same answer, mostly. Every single pre-colonial African society was slave-owning, and some post-colonial ones have resumed the tradition. "Who killed Malcolm?" Some black radicals he'd fallen out with. "Who keep the Irish a colony?" I dunno ? ask Bertie Ahern, prime minister of the Irish Republic. (Then tell me whose navy shut down the Atlantic slave trade.) "Who got rich from Armenian genocide?" You got me on that one, Amiri. Who did? Then, just as you start to feel that the contradictions have piled up to an unacceptable height ? wheeee! With one bound our hero is free. Employing the rhetorical device poets call metastasis (change of subject, more or less) he leaps from dark speculations about the origin of AIDS and the fate of Paul Robeson to... exploding owls. Yep, you heard it right. Explosion of Owl the newspaper say The devil face cd be seen. I have to confess, Mr. Baraka lost me here. Who is this exploding owl? Where did he fly in from? Could this be some sort of typo? No, twelve lines later we get showered with feathers again: Like an Owl exploding In your life in your brain in your self This leads in, somehow, to a closing crescendo: ...We hear the questions rise ...... Like the acid vomit of the fire of Hell Who and Who and WHO who who Whoooo and Whooooooooooooooooooooo! I never did figure out what the exploding owl is doing in there, but by the time I got to "Whooooooooooooooooooooo!" I felt pretty sure I knew the answer to all those whos. It's us white devils, the ones who aren't communists, and most especially those of us who are Jews but not communists. Pleased with having got to the bottom of this "powerful and respected" poet's challenging production, I felt inspired to have a go at something along the same lines myself. I cannot hope to compete with such a giant of American letters, of course, but imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and I hope Mr. Baraka will take my feeble effort in that spirit. Everybody has to start somewhere, after all. Amiri Baraka, for example, started out as LeRoi Jones, a humble organizer of race riots back in the 1960s. Who knows? If I keep at it long enough, maybe I could become Poet Laureate of New York State. I could sure use 10,000 bucks. OK, here goes. Somebody Stuck It To New Jersey Taxpayers by John Derbyshire Who took help from Jews when getting his scam started Then turned and spat on them when a cozy sinecure came along Who praises despots, wreckers of nations Murderers, despoilers of innocence ? Kabila, Lumumba, Lenin, Che Who thinks Nkrumah was a benefactor of anyone but himself Who believes the most transparent driveling anti-Semitic lies about 9/11 Who thinks "Tom Ass" is a really, really funny way to write "Thomas" Who mau-maued the governor Who put one over on the guilty white liberals at those fool Art Councils Who's an illiterate moron So stupid he can't even keep his racism straight... From JforJames at aol.com Fri Oct 11 16:53:35 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:53:35 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry Message-ID: In a message dated 10/11/02 8:45:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu writes: > However, in the actual world of writing, thinking in schools leads > to following the herd, an instinct that might result in greater > marketability but not necessarily in worthwhile poetry. Most writers whom I > know, wherther making fiction or poetry, do not think in schools, and many > refuse to be categorized. Michael and others, It seems a lot of the conversation has centered on the negative aspects of schools/groups. I understand a certain resistance to pigeonhole or to be pigeonholed, but I think we're losing sight of the benefit, in fact boon, that many of the schools brought to both poetry as a whole and the group's members (& known associates) themselves. The schools, by being readily identifiable, garnered needed attention/notorriety. And the members often played important roles in developing each other's talents, as they tested or assisted one another. (It's interesting to observe how often once a poet makes a name, often because of the limelight arcing over the whole group, that poet doth protest too much when the interviewer asks, Are you now or have you have been a member of the ________ists, aka such&such school?) Some of the so-called schools have been the virtual & the real sites of a dynamic interplay among those writers involved, fomenting new methods, self-generating alternative outlets (little mags; small presses) for their work, etc. Not to mention the useful tension and opposition the schools provided for those writers on the outside (often more normative in practice if not openly antagonistic to the school's influence). Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Fri Oct 11 17:29:22 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:29:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "FUSE WEEK" Message-ID: <8d.1f8d2da4.2ad89cb2@aol.com> Subject: "FUSE WEEK" IGNITES THE NYC LITERARY SCENE!!! In a remarkable show of solidarity and support for New York City, some of the leading global poets from the UK, Ireland, Australia, Canada, India, France, Hungary, Wales, and the United States among many nations will be participating in Fuse Week from October 14 to October 21, 2002. Numerous literary readings and events are scheduled at the New School, Baruch College, and library branches featuring Paul Muldoon, Simon Armitage, Glyn Maxwell, Mimi Khalvati, Eamon Grennan, Srikanth Reddy, Charles Bernstein, Bob Holman, and others. The seven days of programs will focus on the fusion of world cultures and the perceptions of the United States around the world. The week will begin with a major reading at the New School's Tishman Auditorium on October 15 at 8:00 PM to launch Short Fuse: The Global Anthology of New Fusion Poetry. The event is hosted by the editors, Todd Swift and Philip Norton, and features over forty of the most innovative poets from around the world including Featuring Simon Armitage, Charles Bernstein, Glyn Maxwell, Bob Holman, Patricia Smith, Ron Silliman, Willie Perdomo, Todd Colby, Regie Cabico, Emily XYZ, Robert Allen, Edwin Torres, DJ Renegade, Zoe Anglesey, Adeena Karasick, Fortner Anderson, Prageeta Sharma, Wednesday Kennedy, Penn Kemp, Guillermo Castro, Mary O'Donoghue, Richard Peabody, Victoria Stanton, Vincent Tinguely, David McGimpsey, Helen Thomas, Barbara DeCesare, Corey Frost, Ian Ferrier, Joshua Auerbach, Robert Priest, Sean Thomas Dougherty, Catherine Kidd, Kevin Higgins, Rosemary Dun, Tug Dumbly, Ben Doyle Jill Battson, K?lina Gotman, Andrea Thompson, Dawna Matrix Jason Pettus, Heather Hermant, Larry Jaffe, Sean M. Whelan, Lauren Williams, Siobhan Fitzpatrick, David Hill, Silvana Straw, Srikanth Reddy, Hal Niedzviecki, Laurie Anne Fuhr, Stephen Brockwell, Matthew Miller, Jeffrey McDaniel, and MTC Cronin. The anthology also includes a CD and portions of the proceeds will be donated to UNICEF. Other notable events include Brit Lit: New Writing from the UK and Ireland featuring Paul Muldoon, Simon Armitage, Glyn Maxwell, Mimi Khalvati, Pascale Petit, and Bernardine Evaristo on Thursday, October 17, 2002 at 7:00 PM at Engelman Recital Hall, Baruch College. A full listing of Fuse Week's programs is listed below. Additional information available at http://www.rattapallax.com/fusion.htm Some of programs are sponsored by CLMP, Baruch College Performing Arts, Poets House, Rattapallax, New School Graduate Writing Program, and Australia Council for the Arts. Contact: Ram Devineni / (212)-723-4125 / devineni at rattapallax.com From JforJames at aol.com Fri Oct 11 17:37:35 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:37:35 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Australian wins Britain's biggest poetry prize Message-ID: <69.2eb8a546.2ad89e9f@aol.com> I can't resist saying that perhaps this proves the adage, You can't keep a good poet down under... ----- Australian wins Britain's biggest poetry prize Wed Oct 9, 2:47 PM ET LONDON - Australian Peter Porter won Britain's top poetry award Wednesday for his collection "Max is Missing." Porter, 73, who lives in Britain, won the Waterstone's Prize for best collection and picked up a 10,000 pound (US$15,500) prize. "Porter is one of the most distinguished poets at work in Britain today," said William Sieghart, chairman of the judges. '"Max is Missing' is a contemporary, witty, urbane and vibrant collection," he continued. "To anybody with any curiosity, it will be seen at once as both urgent and timeless. An elegiac, satirical and contemplative delight." The work is Porter's 16th book. The prize for best first collection went to Tom French, of Dublin, for "Touching The Bones." Medbh McGuckian, who lives in Belfast, won the Tolman Cunard Prize for best single poem, for "She Is In The Past, She Has This Grace." From JforJames at aol.com Fri Oct 11 18:05:38 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:05:38 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order... Message-ID: <104.1d266c2c.2ad8a532@aol.com> > Subj: call for submissions--housesitting anthology Bob Grumman may be angling to become our literary Linnaeus, but when I saw this call I realized that tho the author may be dead, the subject seems to be flourishing, teeming, dividing and subdividing, down to the cellular level. Finnegan From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Oct 11 18:26:39 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:26:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order... References: <104.1d266c2c.2ad8a532@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DA7501E.34D5D1B4@earthlink.net> JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > Subj: call for submissions--housesitting anthology > > Bob Grumman may be angling to become our > literary Linnaeus, but when I saw this call > I realized that tho the author may be dead, > the subject seems to be flourishing, teeming, > dividing and subdividing, down to the cellular level. > Finnegan And how long does it take for every cell in our bodies to renew themselves? Oh yes, and let's not forget the number of cells we slough off daily. Hey, I'm beginning to like Grumman's approach, at least at this level. - Jim From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 11 19:06:13 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 19:06:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: Message-ID: <00a901c2717a$cc3b91c0$b1cffea9@j1c1k6> From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 11 19:07:18 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 19:07:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry References: <004a01c2710b$c3707020$e059fea9@j1c1k6> <00f101c27132$d62ef3e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <00b501c2717a$f373da40$b1cffea9@j1c1k6> Heck, I've ALWAYS appreciated Billie! --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "theoldmole" To: Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry > Really makes one appreciate Billie, doesn't it? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Grumman" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 5:51 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry > > > > Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response to my calls over the > > years for a list of schools of poetry that I've every gotten. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 11:07 PM > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry > > > > > > > The Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry is imbued by the spirit and > > > example of the Lone Ranger. We intend to assert and defend the > > > character and values of the Lone Ranger. At this time in American > > > history, our persons as Americans are under attack by a line up of > > > foes which stretch on a ridge line from the Red Guards to the killer > > > of Pym Fortuyne to the Academe and Hollywood RadLibs and Jesse > > > Jackson Shakedown Artistes at one end all the way around through > > > Senator LieHee (who lied to his fellow Senator, Strom Thurmond -- > > > definitely, a fatal mistake) to Saddam Charles Goliath Manson Hussein > > > to Jihadistan Al Q maniacs. We, The Lone Star Rangers, will stand > > > each of them down in turn and defeat them in every way necessary to > > > secure our God given rights of Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of > > > Happiness. > > > > > > Lone Star Ranger poets can be found in every walk of poetry: > > > Formalist, Performance, L*A*N*G*U*A*G*E, Demented, Beat [Kerouac > > > Wing], Surrealist Philosophical [Borges], Shakespearean [Shakespeare] > > > -- and on, and on. Any of these styles of poetry can be turned to > > > our ends. Mark this: Wallace Stevens and William Carlos Williams > > > were members of the Republican Party. > > > > > > To know if you are either becoming or are already a Lone Star Ranger > > > poet, ask yourself if you stand with President Bush at this High Noon > > > moment in American history. If you would prefer to read Ann Coulter > > > over, say, Caroline Forche, that would be another reckoning. > > > > > > At a recent 9/11 WTC reading on the patio at the art center, I read, > > > _United Flight 93, The First Counterattack_, to an audience made up > > > of RadLibs for the most part -- typical for this stage of the > > > conflict in USA. Before I went to the podium, I realized in my gut > > > that the audience would be "against" what I would offer them. > > > > > > But I realized I had two allies in spirit who ride with me, George > > > Bush and Dick Cheney. And so, I turned my heart into a star, > > > straightened my shoulders and strode to the podium where in my white > > > suit a la Tom Wolfe and the Lone Ranger I gave forth full force. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > > > > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > > > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > > >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > > > > > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > > > > > 1. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > > > > 2. Re: Schools of poetry (ganesha) > > > > 3. Re: Schools of poetry (ganesha) > > > > 4. RE: Schools of poetry (Halvard Johnson) > > > > 5. RE: Schools of poetry (jpjones at ihug.com.au) > > > > 6. RE: Schools of poetry (Halvard Johnson) > > > > 7. Schools of poetry (David Graham) > > > > 8. Re: Schools of poetry (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) > > > > 9. Schools of poetry (David Graham) > > > > 10. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > > > > 11. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > > > > 12. Re: Schools of poetry (Bob Grumman) > > > > 13. Re: Schools of poetry (Jill Jones) > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >Message: 1 > > > >From: "Bob Grumman" > > > >To: > > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 16:20:22 -0400 > > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >> > You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a > > school > > > >> > to be > > > >> > in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of > > competition > > > >> > in > > > >> > it. > > > > > > > >> Are you saying one should decide how to write by trying to figure > out > > > >> where there's the least competition? > > > > > > > >Zan is a poet, so has decided how to write. > > > > > > > >--Bob G. > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >Message: 2 > > > >From: "ganesha" > > > >To: > > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:05:42 +0800 > > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why can't > > poems > > > >be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or > impossibly > > > >broad) line? I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment for my > > work. > > > >I'm with Jill Jones -- there are only three people in my mode: me, > > myself, > > > >and I. Don't particularly care about anyone else joining up. Besides, > > I'd > > > >side with Groucho any day: "I don't want to be part of any [other] club > > that > > > >would have me as a member." > > > > > > > >Zan > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "Bob Grumman" > > > >To: > > > >Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 5:49 PM > > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > I'm with you about never being sure of Poetry School > > > >> affiliations/membership > > > >> > ... But I'm quite sure you're right about self-promotion and > public > > > >> > manifestos being necessary in the pursuit of recognition for same. > > (And > > > >> > wasn't Pound glorious at the whole business?!!) > > > >> > > > >> > And Bob -- there is no one else who writes like me, as far as I > can > > see, > > > >> > which has frustrated people trying to review my work: no pigeon > > > >> holes/trends > > > >> > available. > > > >> > > > >> Are you saying your poetry has nothing in common with any other > > poetry? > > > >> Every poet is unique, but every poet starts in the pigeonhole, > poetry. > > In > > > >> my taxonomy, every work a poet does has to be one of three kinds: > > songmode > > > >> (traditional "formal"), plaintext (conventional freeverse) or > > burstnorm. > > > >I > > > >> don't know your poetry (sorry), but I'm sure just about all of it > > easily > > > >> fits some school under those three categories. > > > >> > > > >> >I rather like this ... and the fact that there is often no > > > >> > discernible narrative of any sort ... or a tidy ending in my > pieces. > > > >> > > > >> Okay, but what techniques are you using? > > > >> > > > >> > Think I'll stay with David's proposed school of Dementia -- it's > > > >'safest'. > > > >> > > > >> > Zan > > > >> > > > >> You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a > school > > to > > > >be > > > >> in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of > competition > > in > > > >> it. > > > >> > > > >> --Bob G. > > > >> > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> > From: "NMSU" > > > >> > To: > > > >> > Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 6:16 AM > > > >> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > One thing I have learned by teaching this schools of poetry > > class-is > > > >> that > > > >> > > you must have at least a few manifesto writers in the bunch or > > you're > > > >> > going > > > >> > > nowhere. Or a critic who's willing to do that work for you. Come > > to > > > >> think > > > >> > of > > > >> > > it, the way, historically, people's work seems to become part of > > at > > > >> least > > > >> > a > > > >> > > very minor canon is through not a small amount of self-promotion > > > >through > > > >> > > prose criticism and/or public performance. I am more and more > > thinking > > > >> one > > > >> > > need to be sure he or she is right and willing to proclaim it. > (If > > you > > > >> > want > > > >> > > a list--start with Pound and move through your Norton > Anthology). > > > >These > > > >> > > poets eventually change their minds--see Pound's movements > through > > > >> > > movements--and write some new manifestos OR they regret the > > reduction > > > >> > naming > > > >> > > their movement required and never affiliate again... > > > >> > > > > > >> > > never that sure about anything and therefore doomed to > obscurity, > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Connie > > > >> > > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > > >> > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > >> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >> > > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > > >> > New-Poetry mailing list > > > >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> New-Poetry mailing list > > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >Message: 3 > > > >From: "ganesha" > > > >To: > > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:08:28 +0800 > > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >Yeah -- how weird is that? It's like writing poetry for anyone other > > than > > > >oneself ... which is another reason that should I ever be offered a > poet > > > >laureate, I shall refuse. Besides, it pays FA. > > > > > > > >Zan > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "Michael Snider" > > > >To: > > > >Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:43 PM > > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> On Wednesday, October 9, 2002, at 05:49 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > You should consider following Pound's example and figure out a > > school > > > >> > to be > > > >> > in and publicize rather than a safe one--that has a lot of > > competition > > > >> > in > > > >> > it. > > > >> > > > >> Are you saying one should decide how to write by trying to figure > out > > > >> where there's the least competition? > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> New-Poetry mailing list > > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >Message: 4 > > > >From: "Halvard Johnson" > > > >To: > > > >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:20:48 -0400 > > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > > > > > >Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those > > > >other sui generis ones, okay? > > > > > > > >Hal "Balthus is a painter about whom nothing is known." > > > > --Balthus > > > >Halvard Johnson > > > >=============== > > > >email: halvard at earthlink.net > > > >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > > > > > >{ Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why > > > >can't poems > > > >{ be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or > > impossibly > > > >{ broad) line? I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment > > > >for my work. > > > >{ > > > >{ Zan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >Message: 5 > > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >From: jpjones at ihug.com.au > > > >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 21:54:20 EST > > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those > > > >> other sui generis ones, okay? > > > > > > > >Hal, > > > > > > > >Your comment is cute, yes, but it has nothing to do with what both Zan > > and I > > > >are talking about. > > > > > > > >I'm influenced, I learn, I read widely, I write over what's gone > > > >before. I talk > > > >to other poets, get ideas, disagree with them. All of that and more. > > > >Sheesh, is > > > >this stating the obvious, or what? Neither of us said or implied that > our > > work > > > >was sui generis. I certainly am not that naive. > > > > > > > >We were talking about schools and categorisations, we were talking > about > > > >exclusions, about how our work is received, or not, and how we deal > with > > that. > > > > > > > >Jill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >Message: 6 > > > >From: "Halvard Johnson" > > > >To: > > > >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 22:58:40 -0400 > > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. > > > > > > > >Hal > > > > > > > >{ > Then, Zan, we'll lump your poems in with all those > > > >{ > other sui generis ones, okay? > > > > > > > > >{ Hal, > > > > > > > > >{ Your comment is cute, yes, but it has nothing to do with what > > > >both Zan and I > > > >{ are talking about. > > > > > > > > >{ I'm influenced, I learn, I read widely, I write over what's > > > >gone before. I talk > > > >{ to other poets, get ideas, disagree with them. All of that and > > > >more. Sheesh, is > > > >{ this stating the obvious, or what? Neither of us said or > > > >implied that our work > > > >{ was sui generis. I certainly am not that naive. > > > > > > > > >{ We were talking about schools and categorisations, we were talking > > about > > > >{ exclusions, about how our work is received, or not, and how we > > > >deal with that. > > > > > > > > >{ Jill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >{ _______________________________________________ > > > >{ New-Poetry mailing list > > > >{ New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >{ http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >Message: 7 > > > >Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 22:40:15 -0500 > > > >From: "David Graham" > > > >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > > > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >When the topic is poetic schools, I'm afraid I keep thinking of the > Monty > > > >Python bit from *Life of Brian*, when Brian is trying to persuade his > > > >followers that he isn't the Messiah and they shouldn't follow him, etc. > > > > > > > >So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! > > > >You're all *individuals*!" > > > > > > > >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > > > > > > > >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > > > > > > >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > > >======================================== > > > >David Graham > > > >Professor of English, Ripon College > > > >grahamd at ripon.edu > > > > Home Page: > > > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > > Poetry Library: > > > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > > > > > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, > > > >undergraduate education." > > > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > > > >======================================= > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >Message: 8 > > > >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:50:30 EDT > > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > > > > > >--part1_19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116_boundary > > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > >In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, > > > >grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > > >> So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for > yourself! > > > >> You're all *individuals*!" > > > >> > > > >> And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > > > >> > > > >> Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > > >> > > > >> *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > > > > > > >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man > > set > > > >himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world > > will > > > >come round to him. > > > > > > > >--part1_19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116_boundary > > > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > > > > >FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 10/9/2002 > > > >10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > > > > > >SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
> > > >
So, to the > > > >assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself!
> > > >You're all *individuals*!"
> > > >
> > > >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals."
> > > >
> > > >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!"
> > > >
> > > >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most.

> > > > > > >SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">
> > > >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single > > > >man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the > > > >great world will come round to him. > > > > > > > >--part1_19d.9ec7d4d.2ad66116_boundary-- > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >Message: 9 > > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 00:00:52 -0500 > > > >From: "David Graham" > > > >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > > > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >> THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not > > understand > > > >this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. > > > > > > > >--MS_Mac_OE_3117052852_1005776_MIME_Part > > > >Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > > > > > > > > grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > > >So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! > > > >You're all *individuals*!" > > > > > > > >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > > > > > > > >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > > > > > > >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > > > > > > > > > > >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man > > set > > > >himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world > > will > > > >come round to him. > > > > > > > >Ah, but books are for the scholar's idle times. When he can read God > > > >directly, the hour is too precious to be wasted in other men's > > transcripts > > > >of their readings. > > > > > > > >======================================== > > > >David Graham > > > >Professor of English, Ripon College > > > >grahamd at ripon.edu > > > > Home Page: > > > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > > > Poetry Library: > > > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > > > > > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, > > > >undergraduate education." > > > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > > > >======================================= > > > > > > > >--MS_Mac_OE_3117052852_1005776_MIME_Part > > > >Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > > > >Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Schools of poetry > > > > > > > > > > > >
grahamd at ripon.edu > > writes: = > > > >
> > > >
So, to the assembled crowd he shouts > things > > like= > > > > "Think for yourself!
> > > >You're all *individuals*!"
> > > >
> > > >And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all > > individuals."= > > > >
> > > >
> > > >Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm > > not!" > > >> > > > >
> > > >*That *guy is the poet who interests me most.
> > > >

> > > >
> > > >What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man > > set = > > > >himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world > > will c= > > > >ome round to him.
> > > >
> > > >
Ah, but books are for the scholar's idle times.  When > > he = > > > >can read God directly, the hour is too precious to be wasted in other > > men's = > > > >transcripts of their readings.
> > > >
> > > > > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > >David Graham
> > > >Professor of English, Ripon College
> > > >grahamd at ripon.edu
> > > >   Home Page:
> > > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> > > >   Poetry Library:
> > > >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> > > >
> > > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> > > >undergraduate education."
> > > >   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> > > > > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--MS_Mac_OE_3117052852_1005776_MIME_Part-- > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >Message: 10 > > > >From: "Bob Grumman" > > > >To: > > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 05:56:24 -0400 > > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > > > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C27021.C45917C0 > > > >Content-Type: text/plain; > > > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > >The school that ninety percent of poets think they belong to is the Oh, > = > > > >How Wonderfully Unclassifiable I Am School. > > > > > > > >--Bob G. > > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > > > > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=20 > > > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:50 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, = > > > >grahamd at ripon.edu writes:=20 > > > > > > > > So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for = > > > >yourself!=20 > > > > You're all *individuals*!" > > > > > > > > And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." > > > > > > > > Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > > > > > > > *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > > > > > > > > > > > What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single > man > > = > > > >set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great = > > > >world will come round to him.=20 > > > > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C27021.C45917C0 > > > >Content-Type: text/html; > > > > charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
The school that ninety percent of poets think they > = > > > >belong to=20 > > > >is the Oh, How Wonderfully Unclassifiable I Am School.
> > > >
 
> > > >
--Bob G.
> > > > > > >style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; > MARGIN-RIGHT: > > = > > > >0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> > > > >
----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = > > > >black">From:=20 > > > > > > >title=3DRsgwynn1 at cs.com>Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=20 > > > > > > > >
To: > > > href=3D"mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu"=20 > > > > title=3Dnew-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu = > > > >
> > > >
Sent: Thursday, October 10, = > > > >2002 12:50=20 > > > > AM
> > > >
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] = > > > >Schools of=20 > > > > poetry
> > > >

= > > > >Roman" lang=3D0=20 > > > > size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF">In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM = > > > >Central=20 > > > > Daylight Time, > > >href=3D"mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu">grahamd at ripon.edu=20 > > > > writes: size=3D2=20 > > > > style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">
> > > > > > > style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = > > > >MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"=20 > > > > TYPE=3D"CITE">So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like > "Think > > = > > > >for=20 > > > > yourself!
You're all *individuals*!"

And of course they > = > > > >chant=20 > > > > back in unison, "We're all individuals."

Except for that > one > > = > > > >wise guy=20 > > > > in the back, who yells "I'm not!"

*That *guy is the poet > > who=20 > > > > interests me most.
 > > > face=3D"Times New Roman" lang=3D0 size=3D3 > style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: > > = > > > >#ffffff"=20 > > > > FAMILY=3D"SERIF">
What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is > = > > > >that if the=20 > > > > single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, > = > > > >the great=20 > > > > world will come round to him. = > > > > > > > > > > > >------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C27021.C45917C0-- > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >Message: 11 > > > >From: "Bob Grumman" > > > >To: > > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:07:03 -0400 > > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >> Bah, Humbug!!, Bob ... Why must everything be categorised? Why > can't > > > >poems > > > >> be examined on their own terms instead along some narrowly (or > > impossibly > > > >> broad) line? > > > > > > > >If someone asked you what kind of car you owned, assuming you won one, > > would > > > >you say its uniqueness prevented you from describing it further? > > > > > > > >How can you believe that to categorize poetry means you can't ALSO > > examine > > > >poems in their own terms, whatever that is? > > > > > > > >I don't WANT/desire this latter sort of treatment for my work. > > > >> I'm with Jill Jones -- there are only three people in my mode: me, > > myself, > > > >> and I. Don't particularly care about anyone else joining up. > > Besides, > > > >I'd > > > >> side with Groucho any day: "I don't want to be part of any [other] > > club > > > >that > > > >> would have me as a member." > > > > > > > >This, alas, is the kind of response I always get whenever I try to get > > poets > > > >to list schools of poetry. > > > > > > > >> Zan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >Message: 12 > > > >From: "Bob Grumman" > > > >To: > > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:09:53 -0400 > > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > >> Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. > > > >> > > > >> Hal > > > > > > > >Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't make > > them > > > >sui generis. > > > > > > > >--Bob G. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >Message: 13 > > > >Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:48:40 +1000 > > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > >From: Jill Jones > > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > > > > > > >On Thursday, October 10, 2002, at 08:09 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > >>> Forgive the intrusion. Carry on. > > > >>> > > > >>> Hal > > > >> > > > >> Right. Just because these poets' work is unclassifiable doesn't > make > > > >> them > > > >> sui generis. > > > > > > > > > > > >Oh right. it's so easy to be patronising, isn't it? I never said I > > > >thought I was 'wonderfully' unclassifiable - I said "no-one knows where > > > >to put you so you don't get put anywhere." I could think of various > > > >ways I could be classified, discussed, whatever, but what passes for > > > >criticism, at least in this country, is either fairly conservative or > > > >undeveloped. It is also narrow so that those who produce some work that > > > >might fit here and other work that might fir there and, yet again other > > > >work ... etc appear to be too hard to classify and, therefore, are not > > > >discussed or regarded much at all - by others, note. Serious > > > >discussions about poetics are still not common round these parts though > > > >maybe it is changing. > > > > > > > >My next comment was an ironic comment, " I guess me, myself and I form > > > >our own small triumvirate". Silly me. (See, I can be patronising too. > > > >What fun!) > > > > > > > >It's a big wide world and not everywhere is the same. But maybe that > > > >doesn't interest this list. > > > > > > > >Jill > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________________ > > > >Jill Jones > > > >http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones > > > > > > > >Latest book: Screens Jets Heaven. Available now from Salt Publishing > > > >http://www.saltpublishing.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >New-Poetry mailing list > > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > > > > >End of New-Poetry Digest > > > > > > > > > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Oct 11 19:38:13 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:38:13 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: <00a901c2717a$cc3b91c0$b1cffea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DA760E5.B515F11B@earthlink.net> Bob Grumman wrote: > > I think a creative artist who thinks in schools while in the act of creating > a work is a fool; I think a creative artist who does not think in schools > after finishing a work is a greater fool. > Frankly, Bob, I don't give it a thought, primarily because there's no good reason to do so. - a fool From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 11 22:12:50 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:12:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: <00a901c2717a$cc3b91c0$b1cffea9@j1c1k6> <3DA760E5.B515F11B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00f801c27194$de4bc000$b1cffea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > I think a creative artist who thinks in schools while in the act of creating > > a work is a fool; I think a creative artist who does not think in schools > > after finishing a work is a greater fool. > > > > Frankly, Bob, I don't give it a thought, primarily because there's no > good reason to do so. > > - a fool Well, by "thinking in schools," I mean thinking about what kind of poem you've written, which is implicitly thinking about what school it might belong in. If you don't do that, I can't see how you can get anywhere as a poet. But I agree that there's no good reason to want to get anywhere as a poet--or find ways for others to describe your poetry accurately, or for short-cuts to finding poetry you like, and poets with whom you might ally yourself. Etc. --Bob G. From elemenope at icubed.com Fri Oct 11 22:50:26 2002 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 10:50:26 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gruman: "Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response to my calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry that I've every gotten." In-Reply-To: <200210112306.g9BN64603779@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200210112306.g9BN64603779@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Prozac Nation School of Poetry -- the "HUH?" genre. Below is what Monica said when Billie was so high and proud he thought Osama was a figment of his imagination. At 07:06 PM -0400 10/11/02, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > >Message: 8 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry >Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 19:07:18 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Heck, I've ALWAYS appreciated Billie! > >--Bob G. -- From roger at chass.utoronto.ca Sat Oct 12 02:26:18 2002 From: roger at chass.utoronto.ca (Roger Greenwald) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 02:26:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Readings: Chicago Oct 16 & Seattle Oct 23 Message-ID: <3.0.3.16.20021012022618.50c7983e@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> Hello, Everyone I'm pleased to announce the following readings I'll be giving this coming week and the week after. I'd be even more pleased if any of you could attend one of these; if you do, please come up and say hello afterwards. By all means forward this announcement to anyone you know in Chicago or Seattle who may be interested (thanks). 1) READING WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2002, 4:30 PM (reception afterwards) ROGER GREENWALD, reading from his translation _North in the World: Selected Poems of Rolf Jacobsen_ (University of Chicago Press, 2002) STEPHEN KESSLER, reading from his translation _Machu Picchu,_ by Pablo Neruda (Bulfinch, 2001) LOCATION: University of Chicago Classics Building, 1010 E. 59th Street Room: Classics 21 (second floor, behind the Classics Caf?) Contact: German Department, phone (773) 702-8494 FREE ADMISSION __________ 2) Roger Greenwald will read from his translation NORTH IN THE WORLD: SELECTED POEMS OF ROLF JACOBSEN (University of Chicago Press, 2002) on Wednesday, October 23rd, 2002 at 7:30 p.m. in The Reading Room, The Elliott Bay Book Company 101 South Main Street (Pioneer Square) Seattle, Washington FREE ADMISSION 206 624-6600 1 800 962-5311 __________ Roger G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 12 06:01:31 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 06:01:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gruman: "Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response tomy calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry thatI've every gotten." References: <200210112306.g9BN64603779@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <002501c271d6$572e7e40$0374fea9@j1c1k6> > Prozac Nation School of Poetry -- the "HUH?" genre. > > Below is what Monica said when Billie was so high and proud he > thought Osama was a figment of his imagination. I don't know what you're talking about except that it's nothing I'm much interested in. That I've always appreciated Billie doesn't mean I've always agreed with her, assuming one is to take anything she says seriously. --Bob G. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sat Oct 12 09:36:38 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 06:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gruman: "Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response tomy calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry thatI've every gotten." Message-ID: <20021012133638.BE33644BA@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 12 10:27:49 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 10:27:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gruman: "Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response tomy calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry thatI've every gotten." References: <20021012133638.BE33644BA@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <00c001c271fb$8b762160$0374fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob, > > I could be wrong, but I think the reference to "Billie" is a "he," not a > "she," and is one about Bill Collins. > > Bob Cobb Ah, now I think I see what happened--the first reference was to OUR Billie, and I said I enjoyed her (in this case,"her" is right, yes?) posts, and my opponent took me to be talking about Collins (who is a "Billy," yes?) and I didn't realize that's who he was talking about--although I did get confused. All I can say is that however dumb the threads are that I start, they end up dumber than they started, and not always because I what I add to them. --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Oct 12 12:22:31 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 12:22:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gottfried Benn, "September" Message-ID: Just a bit late, but isn't it always September somewhere? September I You, bent over the fence with phlox, (cleft by heavy rains, curious smell of game), who likes to walk on stubble and go to the old men, gathering balsamine, who breathes on the fields smoke with lust and sorrow-- whose rising masonry still wants its roof by snow and winter, wants to call out an: "alas, in vain" to the men laying the mortar, but procrastinates-- stout rather than vertical, with a filthy pumpkin nude at the foot, fat and faceless, this vegetable toad-- risen from the level fields, moon-end of all flames, the increase of fruit and fever fizzling out, an already darkened face-- fool or baptizer, the summer's fool, late blabberer, last notice or the pre-song of the glacier, at least the nutcracker, reed-reaper, employer of rushed conclusions-- before You the snow, high silence, unproductive the unfertilizable distance: there your arm extends, still bent over the fence the press of weeds and beetles, the yearning for life, spiders and fieldmice-- II You, veiled by the mountain ash of early fall, stubble-webbed, cabbage-fly in your breath, let all the hands run, cuckoo-clocks strike, startle with vesper-clang, ring the hour, so golden in its fastness, so surely yellowed away, into a trembling heart! You--: Different! So only the gods lie or the garments of unshakable Titans fashioned to endure, butterflies and blossoms embroidered so deeply into the paths! Or a sleep of an earlier kind, when there was no wakening, only golden warmth and purple berries, nibbled by swallows, eternal, that never hence migrate-- Strike this, ring, this hour, for when you are still, the poplar-planted borders will advance and will be cooler. --Gottfried Benn tr. Edgar Lohner and Cid Corman Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sat Oct 12 12:47:25 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 09:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: quote from Gould Message-ID: <20021012164725.3BE254442@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sat Oct 12 13:34:39 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 10:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Cobbing Message-ID: <20021012173439.5F4143C7C@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Oct 12 15:14:27 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 15:14:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: C. D. Wright Message-ID: GIRL FRIEND POEM #3 She was white and flown as a kleenex turning into a swan. I lifted her veil; the face disappeared. As if I had exposed some film to sun. Twirling our skirts. Laughing until the clouds sopped up the light. And the peaches fell down around us. for Sharon C.D. Wright --------------------------------- copyright (c) C.D. Wright. From "Steal Away," published in 2002 by Copper Canyon Press (http://www.coppercanyonpress.org). --------------------------------- From Ex2deuce at aol.com Sat Oct 12 21:47:48 2002 From: Ex2deuce at aol.com (Ex2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 21:47:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] schools about poetry Message-ID: <18d.fd415dc.2ada2ac4@aol.com> Dear New poet-listners, What school about poetry should take me on there as a pupil in it? I want to get better at it. For example high school was very different for me. First of all learning how to change from class to class every morning. Secondly of all the food in the cafetearia tasted horrable. The coldcuts tasted (stale). Plus the soup. Fourth the work is hard but you can understand it faster according to the years of experience--info you obtained at the best schools in the US.A. In my second paragraph, I agrre with everybody on this assignmint. According to Finnigan "Not to mention the useful tension and opposition the schools provided for those writers on the outside (often more normative in practice if not openly antagonistic to the school's influence)." Finnigan is trying to say about it that School can have alot of tension however you should stay pretty normal. Do not get down. Everybody has a bad day. In my experience Finnigan is a nice person. He is an out going person. Th erefor I think the qualitys he has makes Finnigan a coperative person. Finally in the last place, I dont want to be a B student becasue as a friend to me Finnigan is family so my grades have to be only A's. As a poet. Can anyone advice me about everything? Luv, Billie From Ex2deuce at aol.com Sat Oct 12 23:09:24 2002 From: Ex2deuce at aol.com (Ex2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:09:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Amir Barrka Message-ID: <17f.10153119.2ada3de4@aol.com> My first part of my essay is about Amir Barrka, he is a dearly beloved peot. He wrote a famous poem and should give it back to the taxpayers. That is what the first ammendment. he should not be resigned. It is not his fault even. He was living from Ne jersey, everybody will agree to it. Plus I have to read his poem yet. Where can I buy it and how much can I afford? ($$$$$$$) If you are black you can be depressed. Everybody should be the same. Luv, Billie From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sun Oct 13 08:50:35 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 05:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] schools of poetry Message-ID: <20021013125036.2E11540EF@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Oct 13 09:00:36 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:00:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] schools of poetry In-Reply-To: <20021013125036.2E11540EF@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: { cvoisine at nmsu.edu wrote: { { "moodernism"? { { Bob Cobb replied: { { cow art? Nah, altered statism. Hal "Balthus is a painter about whom nothing is known." --Balthus Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Oct 13 11:14:41 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 11:14:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Kenneth Fearing, "End of the Seers' Convention" Message-ID: End of the Seers' Convention We were walking and talking on the roof of the world, In an age that seemed, at that time, an extremely modern age, Considering a merger, last on the agenda, of the Seven Great Leagues that held the Seven True Keys to the Seven Ultimate Spheres of all moral, financial, and occult life. "I foresee a day," said one of the delegates, an astro-analyst from Idaho, "when men will fly through the air, and talk across space; They will sail in ships that flost beneath the water; They will emanate shadows of themselves upon a screen, and the shadows will move, and talk, and seem as though real." "Very interesting, indeed," declared a Gypsy delegate. "But I should like to ask, as a simple reader of tea-leaves and palms: How does this combat the widespread and growing evil of the police?" The astrologer shrugged, and an accidental meteor fell from his robes and smoldered on the floor. "In addition," he said, "I foresee a war, And a victory after that one, and after the victory, a war again." "Trite," was the comment of a crystal-gazer from Miami Beach. "Any damn fool, at any damn time, can visualize wars, and more wars, and famines and plagues. The real question is: How to seize power from entrenched and organized men of Common Sense?" "I foresee a day," said the Idaho astrologer, "when human beings will live on top of flag-poles, And dance, at some profit, for weeks and months without any rest, And some will die very happily of eating watermelons, and nails, and cherry pies." "Why," said a bored numerologist, reaching for his hat, "can't these star-gazers keep their feet on the ground?" "Even if it's true," said a Bombay illusionist, "it is not, like the rope-trick, altogether practical." "And furthermore and finally," shouted the astrologer, with comets and halfmoons dropping from his pockets, and his agitated sleeves, "I prophesy an age of triumph for laziness and sleep, and dreams and utter peace. I can see couples walking through the public parks in love, and those who do not are wanted by the sheriff. I see men fishing beside quiet streams, and those who do not are pursued by collectors, and plastered with liens." "This does not tell us how to fight against skepticism," muttered a puzzled mesmerist, groping for the door. "I think," agreed a lady who interpreted the cards, "we are all inclined to accept too much on faith." A sprinkling of rain, or dragon's blood, Or a handful of cinders fell on the small, black umbrellas they raised against the sky. --Kenneth Fearing fr. *Complete Poems*, 1994 Orono, Maine: The National Poetry Foundation Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 13 12:28:34 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 12:28:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Elements of am Effective Poem References: <20021012164725.3BE254442@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <001001c272d5$93e73980$a674fea9@j1c1k6> I have more than a few things I really need to write, so have decided to annoy the good anti-analyticality people at New Poetry again, to avoid the more important chores I have facing me. Actually, I feel this may be a constructive post, at least for me, for I'm one of those strange poets who is interested in what the constituents of effective poetry are. I have given the question a shot or two over the years and may have already answered it satisfactorily but don't remember exactly what I've said. The brief discussion about the value of Baraka's poetry got me thinking about it again. So, here's one more try at answering it. Note: I don't think the list of the elements of an effective poem I'm going to present as my answer is exhaustive. I am presenting it as much in the hopes that others can add to it as I am to organize my own thoughts. Also: I doubt that any effective poem will contain all the elements I list, or should. I do say that any genuine poem must contain some minimum number of them. For now, I would prefer not to have to argue about the relative importance of the elements, just about whether they belong on my list or not. Oh, and I make no pretence of being original or profound. I hope only to be close to complete. My List: 1. Words or textual matter which act like words (e.g., abbreviations of words, symbols like the ampersand, etc.). Even these seemingly basic elements are in dispute as the sine qua non I believe them to be. Be that as it may, no one could contend that they are NOT an element of most poems. 2. Sensual Richness, by which I mean something that awakens some strong sensual response in the person experiencing a poem--visual, auditory, olfactory, tactile, sexual, and so forth, in any combination. In order to have this, a poem's words or other content must either be able to cause a sensual response directly or refer to subject matter that will. For it to do this well, the following elements should help: A. Conciseness (since sensual richness should equal the sensual response of the person experiencing it over the size of poem); central to this is what I call: B. Freshness of Expression (since the more familiar one is with what's in a poem, the less likely it will be able to cause any kind of intense sensual response); C. Coherence (since, in opposition to B, the more unfamiliar one is with what's in a poem, the less likely it will be able to cause any kind of intense sensual response); grammaticality, unspecializedness, aptness of words chosen and the like would be components contributing to this (but their opposites would often contribute to Freshness of Expression); D. Unity (since a poem consisting of two or more unconnected parts will only give one a single response to each part whereas a poem unifying those parts will give one those same responses PLUS responses to each combination of parts--e.g., a poem consisting of stanza x and stanza y will give the person experiencing it only responses x and y if the two stanzas are not united; if the two stanzas are united, however, the poem will give the person response xy besides responses x and y) E. Equaphorical Vigor, by which I mean the effective use of metaphors and related devices such as similes which I call "equaphors" in my poetics: good use of equaphors increases conciseness but, equally or more important, allows a person experiencing a poem to respond sensually to two or more major stimuli at once which must increase the richness of the response. 3. Maximal Span, or size and range (important, I feel, because the more of existence one poem covers compared to a second poem, the larger the experience one ought to be able to get from the first poem, other things being equal); contributing to this are the number and variety of subjects the poem covers, the variety of vocabulary it uses, including non-verbal vocabulary such as graphic images, mathematical symbols, and so on; 4. Archetypal Depth (since some subject matter is clearly of more significance to human beings than other, and the most important subject matter seems to be that which has entered human mythologies--maternal love, for instance; sexual attraction, jealousy, etc.; the quest for triumph over enemies, for peace, for Israel, for fame as a singer, etc.; 5. Filler, or elements without poetic value that most poems will have simply because few poems can be nothing but poetry. Summary: given that a poem must consist of words or elements that act like words, I define an effective poem as having three dimensions: sensual richness (width), maximal span (length) and archetypal depth (depth), with five secondary elements contributing consequentially to sensual richness:conciseness, freshness of expression, coherence, unity and equaphorical vigor. That's it. Comments welcome. I left off "Moral Correctness," by the way, not only because I'm an anti-Puritan but because I feel "Archetypal Depth" covers it--that is, I think what most people consider immoral has little or no archetypal depth--for instance, a poem expressing the joy of killing babies for the fun of it would not click archetypally with most people. . . . --Bob G. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Oct 13 13:05:45 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:05:45 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Elements of am Effective Poem References: <20021012164725.3BE254442@sitemail.everyone.net> <001001c272d5$93e73980$a674fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DA9A7E8.5B4578DA@earthlink.net> I did it! I did it, teacher! here it is: I am @ the store I inhale death beneath the freshness I smile at the banana next to the peach + O limp lettuce! O dimpled tomato! O freckled banana! + The freeway outside The suburbs it skirts The world outside the frame + Valkyrie flight 111 From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Oct 13 13:28:04 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 13:28:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Kenneth Fearing, "A la Carte" Message-ID: A.la Carte Some take to liquor, some turn to prayer, Many prefer to dance, others to gamble, and a few resort to gas or the gun. (Some are lucky, and some are not.} Name your choice, any selection from one to twenty-five: Music from Harlem? A Viennese waltz on the slot-machine phonograph at Jack's Bar & Grill? Or a Brahms Concerto over WXV? (Many like it wild, others sweet.) Champagne for supper, murder for breakfast, romance for lunch and terror for tea, This is not the first time, nor will it be the last time the world has gone to hell. (Some can take it, and some cannot.) --Kenneth Fearing fr. *Complete Poems* Orono, Maine: National Poetry Foundation, 1994 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Oct 13 13:30:22 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 13:30:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Kenneth Fearing, "A la Carte" Message-ID: <000001c272de$35910d80$bd19f7a5@computer> A.la Carte Some take to liquor, some turn to prayer, Many prefer to dance, others to gamble, and a few resort to gas or the gun. (Some are lucky, and some are not.} Name your choice, any selection from one to twenty-five: Music from Harlem? A Viennese waltz on the slot-machine phonograph at Jack's Bar & Grill? Or a Brahms Concerto over WXV? (Many like it wild, others sweet.) Champagne for supper, murder for breakfast, romance for lunch and terror for tea, This is not the first time, nor will it be the last time the world has gone to hell. (Some can take it, and some cannot.) --Kenneth Fearing fr. *Complete Poems* Orono, Maine: National Poetry Foundation, 1994 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 13 13:30:54 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 13:30:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Elements of am Effective Poem References: <20021012164725.3BE254442@sitemail.everyone.net> <001001c272d5$93e73980$a674fea9@j1c1k6> <3DA9A7E8.5B4578DA@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00e801c272de$4934d2e0$a674fea9@j1c1k6> > I did it! I did it, teacher! here it is: Yes, you did, Jimmy--you were the first to make fun of the silly man who believes poets are foolish who turn off the analytical portions of their minds. You get an A. --Bob G. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 13 13:59:49 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 12:59:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kenneth Fearing Message-ID: <200210131758.g9DHwlQR030838@mx8.mx.voyager.net> Thanks for the jolt of Fearing, Hal. Fearing's a sentimental favorite of mine--I discovered him in the indescribably rich & eclectic anthology *Shake the Kaleidoscope*, edited by Milton Klonsky in 1973, alongside such poets as Russell Edson, George Oppen, Basil Bunting, John Wheelright, Elder Olson, Mina Loy, F. T. Prince, Weldon Kees, May Swenson, Joseph Ceravolo, A. R. Ammons, Edward Field, Bill Knott, Diane Wakoski, J. V. Cunningham, Sara Teasdale, and Elizabeth Bishop. Ah, there were anthologies in those days. . . . Here's one from that book (originally published in 1943 by Fearing). My mailer will no doubt screw up the lineation, since I can't do wrap-arounds. These are mostly very long lines. ART REVIEW Recently displayed at the Times Square Station, a new Vandyke on the face-cream girl. (Artist unknown. Has promise, but lacks the brilliance shown by the great masters of the Elevated age) The latest wood carving in a Whelan telephone booth, titled "O Mortal Fools WA 9-5090," shows two winged hearts above an ace of spades. (His meaning is not entirely clear, but this man will go far) A charcoal nude in the rear of Flatbush Ahearn's Bar & Grill, "Forward to the Brotherhood of Man," has been boldly conceived in the great tradition. (We need more, much more of this) Then there is the chalk portrait, on the walls of a waterfront warehouse, of a gentleman wearing a derby hat: "Bleecker Street Mike is a doublecrossing rat. (Morbid, but powerful. Don't miss) Know then by these presents, know all men by these signs and omens, by these simple thumbprints on the throat of time, Know that Pete, the people's artist, is ever watchful, That Tuxedo Jim has passed among us, and was much displeased, as always, That George the Ghost (no man has ever seen him) and Billy the Bicep boy will neither bend nor break, That Mr. Harkness of Sunnyside still hopes for the best, and has not lost his human touch, That Phantom Phil, the master of them all, has come and gone, but will return, and all is well. --Kenneth Fearing ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= ---------- >From: "Halvard Johnson" >To: "New-Poetry" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Kenneth Fearing, "A la Carte" >Date: Sun, Oct 13, 2002, 12:28 PM > > >A.la Carte > >Some take to liquor, some turn to prayer, >Many prefer to dance, others to gamble, and a few resort to > gas or the gun. >(Some are lucky, and some are not.} > >Name your choice, any selection from one to twenty-five: >Music from Harlem? A Viennese waltz on the slot-machine > phonograph at Jack's Bar & Grill? Or a Brahms > Concerto over WXV? >(Many like it wild, others sweet.) > >Champagne for supper, murder for breakfast, romance for > lunch and terror for tea, >This is not the first time, nor will it be the last time the world > has gone to hell. >(Some can take it, and some cannot.) > >--Kenneth Fearing > >fr. *Complete Poems* >Orono, Maine: National Poetry Foundation, 1994 > > >Hal > From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Oct 13 17:09:55 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:09:55 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Elements of am Effective Poem References: <20021012164725.3BE254442@sitemail.everyone.net> <001001c272d5$93e73980$a674fea9@j1c1k6> <3DA9A7E8.5B4578DA@earthlink.net> <00e801c272de$4934d2e0$a674fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DA9E123.7A3581B5@earthlink.net> Bob Grumman wrote: > > > I did it! I did it, teacher! here it is: > > Yes, you did, Jimmy--you were the first to make fun of the silly man who > believes poets are foolish who turn off the analytical portions of their > minds. You get an A. > > --Bob G. No, no. I had all the analytical switches on, and I even know what school of poetry the poem falls into: the premeditated school. - Jim p.s. - Thanks for the A. From JforJames at aol.com Sun Oct 13 21:50:42 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:50:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Samsara's October Issue Is Now On-Line! Message-ID: <151.15d1a25b.2adb7cf2@aol.com> -- Samsara's October Issue Is Now On-Line! http://www.samsaraquarterly.net Featuring Poetry and an Interview with Anthony Robinson Poetry by Bill Yake, Jon Teets, Paula Grenside, Jeffery Bahr, Lynne Thomspon, Frank Parker, Charles Fishman, Jamie McNeely and Khadija Queen. Fiction by Ellen Champagne, Steve Hansen and Ginny Wray. Sugar Root: (A little Samsara past) With poems by C.E. Chaffin, Tom Sheehan and Gary Keenan. This issue was edited by Sharon Shahan, Suzanne Frischkorn (from Connecticut), Marianne Wade, guest editor Amy Unsworth, and Ellen Parker as Fiction editor. From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Oct 13 23:07:01 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:07:01 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry References: <200210110532.g9B5WOs92669@mx15.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <004301c2732e$c77fda50$6f864cca@JROSS2> Schools of poetryAh well -- gorgeous nonsense is always its own defence. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 1:33 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry <<< I agree with what you say, David, but again, gender, please!! << Zan Take it up with Mr. R.W. Emerson, please, whose words I was stealing, in response to my man Sam doing same. He started it! ("The American Scholar," 1837.) For the record, I don't really agree with RWE. Gorgeous nonsense, as usual with that worthy. Sam, on the other hand, is usually right. . . . ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= ---------- From: "ganesha" To: Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry Date: Thu, Oct 10, 2002, 8:06 PM What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will come round to him. Ah, but books are for the scholar's idle times. When he can read God directly, the hour is too precious to be wasted in other men's transcripts of their readings. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Oct 13 23:09:49 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:09:49 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response to mycalls over the years for a list of schools of poetry that I've everygotten. References: <200210110950.g9B9o3621879@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <005501c2732f$2a808c80$6f864cca@JROSS2> And, well -- might be best for you to stay away from the Prozac, too ... or perhaps have more ... Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" To: Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 6:26 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response to mycalls over the years for a list of schools of poetry that I've everygotten. > > > >Let this Lone Star Ranger correct the substitute teacher on the > >spelling of the word, "ever." > > > As I recall, Black Bart's dope gofors draw their guns and go, "That > mask sure is stupid, gulunk hah hah," before The Lone Ranger blasts > their merde eating RadLib grins off their Prozac faces. > > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Oct 13 23:18:56 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:18:56 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: Message-ID: <006601c27330$7072c770$6f864cca@JROSS2> Thank you, Michael, for this reasoned response. And might I add, I'm frequently asked by readers if I consider my possible audience when writing. I invariably reply, "Never." I'm not writing for other people; I'm writing for myself. Of course, I'm still a great believer in editing for the purpose of making each piece into the best that it can be. As to belonging to any particular school, my writing has changed so much over the past ten years (and is still changing) that it would be bloody difficult to slot myself anywhere. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Karl Ritchie" To: Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 8:47 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry > It seems to me that schools of poetry were determined by scholars of > literature as an Aristotelian means of categorizing aesthetic movements > symptomatic of a given time or age. Especially since the "New Critics," the > approach to interpreting poetry valorized certain poets and devalued > others, emphasizing art for art's sake, the importance of irony, etc. In > order to validate shifts in artistic consciousness, certain poets began to > categorize themselves: Pound & Eliot; the "Beat" movement; the > Objectivists; the Expansive Poets; the Language Poets. Since academia is > one market where a mass of students are required to read assigned works of > literature, to be part of a literary movement is a selling point for many > writers. However, in the actual world of writing, thinking in schools leads > to following the herd, an instinct that might result in greater > marketability but not necessarily in worthwhile poetry. Most writers whom I > know, wherther making fiction or poetry, do not think in schools, and many > refuse to be categorized. > > Michael Karl (Ritchie) > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Oct 13 23:26:00 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:26:00 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality References: <20021011130923.39097.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007601c27331$6d1994e0$6f864cca@JROSS2> Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. Of course, it isn't easy to see what one is part of. I'm not demanding anyone drop pronouns, just be more inclusive. It ain't that big an ask -- femmes do it all the time. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 9:09 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Okay--I see your point here, but you can't be serious, right? I mean, all language is sexist--English being one of the least sexist. At lease we don't have masculine and feminine endings for nouns like "pen" or "jacket." My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another. Of course, Zan, this is just my opinion. Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: As usual, it's the male gender standing in/speaking for everyone. sigh. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! You're all *individuals*!" And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will come round to him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Oct 13 23:33:58 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:33:58 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka analysis References: Message-ID: <009e01c27332$8a1312a0$6f864cca@JROSS2> Frankly, I think this contemporary version of Leroi shouldn't be accorded any more attention than he has already been graced with. Let's lay down the flyswat and get on with more interesting topics, eh? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Lake" To: Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 12:14 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka analysis An amusing analysis of Baraka's now-famous poem, by John Derbyshire: >Most of the poem, in fact, is in the interrogative mood. 162 of the 226 lines begin with the word "Who." >Who do Tom Ass Clarence work for >Who doo doo come out the Colon's mouth >Who know what kind of Skeeza is a Condoleeza >Who pay Connelly [sic] to be a wooden negro >A little exegesis is called for here, I think. "Tom Ass Clarence" is Clarence Thomas, a hate figure to black radicals, who think that writing his name that way is screamingly funny, even after eleven years of doing it. "The Colon" is Colin Powell < this is another thigh-slapper around the black-studies department watercooler. A "skeeza" is a woman with a bad reputation. "Condoleeza" is of course Dr. Condoleezza Rice, the president's national-security adviser, one of the smartest women in America (Nicholas Lemann has a good profile of her in the Oct. 14-21 New Yorker), and "Connelly" must be Ward Connerly, the well-known opponent of race quotas, another hate figure to the blacker-than-thou crowd. >So what is the answer to all these questions? Even rhetorical questions have answers, you know. If you have any acquaintance with black radicals, you might suspect that the answer is: the Jews. (To make a Jesse Jacksonism out of it: "The answer to the whos / Is the 13-letter-expletive Jews / Ain't no use askin' 'Why me?' / We pinned it on you, Hymie.") There is indeed some supporting evidence for this suspicion. There are the lines above, obviously, and also: >Who know who decide Jesus get crucified This seems to be a rephrasing of the oldest anti-Semitic cry of all: They killed Our Lord! And then again: Who know why five Israelis was filming the explosion And cracking they sides at the notion Looks like for sure it's those bloodsucking Jews. But wait a minute: at line 162 we have: Who put the Jews in ovens, and who helped them do it Mr. Baraka is a self-declared communist, you see. Line 161: "Who put a price on Lenin's head." (Whoever it was, I'd like to shake his hand. < JD) He is also a black man. Now, Hitler thought blacks were an inferior race, and he also persecuted communists. Mr. Baraka therefore feels under a double compulsion to dislike Hitler. But, whoa! < Hitler killed Jews, didn't he? And Jews are evil, aren't they? You might think this would be a tough circle for Mr. Baraka to square. Not a bit of it. Some of those Jews were communists, you see. Line 166: "Who killed Rosa Luxembourg [sic... I'm going to leave out the sics from now on < just take it from me, the spelling of proper names is not Mr. Baraka's strong suit. Spelling, after all, is just another one of those soul-constricting Ice People gimmicks], Liebneckt / Who murdered the Rosenbergs..." Communism trumps Jewishness, you see. Communists are, in fact, sort of honorary black people < even when they're Jewish! And a black communist is, of course, to die for: "Who poison Robeson / Who try to put Du Bois in jail." This still leaves us with some puzzles. "Who backed Batista, Hitler, Bilbo, / Chiang kai Chek." Leaving aside the Hobbit < how did he get in there? < and the pre-Castro Cuban dictator (whose regime was described by U.S. ambassador Sumner Wells as "frankly communistic," and who was praised by the communist leader Blas Roca as "the father of the Popular Front"), at least part of the answer in the case of the other two was: Stalin. The Soviet dictator went into alliance with Hitler, after all, and sold him all the war materiel he'd take. He backed Chiang Kai-shek to the very end. The last person Chiang shook hands with on the Chinese mainland, before departing for exile in Taiwan, was the Soviet ambassador. Mere historical truth is of course beneath the notice of a poetic genius like Amiri Baraka. If you actually try answering some of his questions, in fact, you get into some very confusing terrain. "Who killed the most Africans?" Other Africans, without any doubt. Tribal warfare has been endemic in Africa since remote antiquity, except for the few brief decades when European colonizers suppressed it. "Who bought the slaves, who sold them?" Same answer, mostly. Every single pre-colonial African society was slave-owning, and some post-colonial ones have resumed the tradition. "Who killed Malcolm?" Some black radicals he'd fallen out with. "Who keep the Irish a colony?" I dunno < ask Bertie Ahern, prime minister of the Irish Republic. (Then tell me whose navy shut down the Atlantic slave trade.) "Who got rich from Armenian genocide?" You got me on that one, Amiri. Who did? Then, just as you start to feel that the contradictions have piled up to an unacceptable height < wheeee! With one bound our hero is free. Employing the rhetorical device poets call metastasis (change of subject, more or less) he leaps from dark speculations about the origin of AIDS and the fate of Paul Robeson to... exploding owls. Yep, you heard it right. Explosion of Owl the newspaper say The devil face cd be seen. I have to confess, Mr. Baraka lost me here. Who is this exploding owl? Where did he fly in from? Could this be some sort of typo? No, twelve lines later we get showered with feathers again: Like an Owl exploding In your life in your brain in your self This leads in, somehow, to a closing crescendo: ...We hear the questions rise ...... Like the acid vomit of the fire of Hell Who and Who and WHO who who Whoooo and Whooooooooooooooooooooo! I never did figure out what the exploding owl is doing in there, but by the time I got to "Whooooooooooooooooooooo!" I felt pretty sure I knew the answer to all those whos. It's us white devils, the ones who aren't communists, and most especially those of us who are Jews but not communists. Pleased with having got to the bottom of this "powerful and respected" poet's challenging production, I felt inspired to have a go at something along the same lines myself. I cannot hope to compete with such a giant of American letters, of course, but imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and I hope Mr. Baraka will take my feeble effort in that spirit. Everybody has to start somewhere, after all. Amiri Baraka, for example, started out as LeRoi Jones, a humble organizer of race riots back in the 1960s. Who knows? If I keep at it long enough, maybe I could become Poet Laureate of New York State. I could sure use 10,000 bucks. OK, here goes. Somebody Stuck It To New Jersey Taxpayers by John Derbyshire Who took help from Jews when getting his scam started Then turned and spat on them when a cozy sinecure came along Who praises despots, wreckers of nations Murderers, despoilers of innocence < Kabila, Lumumba, Lenin, Che Who thinks Nkrumah was a benefactor of anyone but himself Who believes the most transparent driveling anti-Semitic lies about 9/11 Who thinks "Tom Ass" is a really, really funny way to write "Thomas" Who mau-maued the governor Who put one over on the guilty white liberals at those fool Art Councils Who's an illiterate moron So stupid he can't even keep his racism straight... _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Oct 13 23:43:15 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:43:15 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Australian wins Britain's biggest poetry prize References: <69.2eb8a546.2ad89e9f@aol.com> Message-ID: <00b801c27333$d804ba30$6f864cca@JROSS2> Just so you know, Peter Porter hasn't lived in Australia in decades and doesn't consider himself Australian. Most writers here don't consider him Australian, either. Having looked at the book in question, I'm gobsmacked that it won anything other than a chook raffle, but there you are ... Still, I felt the same when Les Murray won the T.S.Eliot a few years back for _Subhuman Redneck Poems_. Those of us who write and continue to live "DOWN UNDER" consider this positioning merely a matter of perspective. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 5:37 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Australian wins Britain's biggest poetry prize > I can't resist saying that perhaps this proves the adage, > You can't keep a good poet down under... > ----- > Australian wins Britain's biggest poetry prize > Wed Oct 9, 2:47 PM ET > > LONDON - Australian Peter Porter won Britain's top poetry award Wednesday for > his collection "Max is Missing." > > > > Porter, 73, who lives in Britain, won the Waterstone's Prize for best > collection and picked up a 10,000 pound (US$15,500) prize. > > "Porter is one of the most distinguished poets at work in Britain today," > said William Sieghart, chairman of the judges. > > '"Max is Missing' is a contemporary, witty, urbane and vibrant collection," > he continued. "To anybody with any curiosity, it will be seen at once as both > urgent and timeless. An elegiac, satirical and contemplative delight." > > The work is Porter's 16th book. > > The prize for best first collection went to Tom French, of Dublin, for > "Touching The Bones." Medbh McGuckian, who lives in Belfast, won the Tolman > Cunard Prize for best single poem, for "She Is In The Past, She Has This > Grace." > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Sun Oct 13 23:47:44 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:47:44 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] "FUSE WEEK" References: <8d.1f8d2da4.2ad89cb2@aol.com> Message-ID: <00c001c27334$767dba40$6f864cca@JROSS2> I'm cringing beyond reason over the selection of poets from Australia that are participating. They are far from being our best. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 5:29 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] "FUSE WEEK" Subject: "FUSE WEEK" IGNITES THE NYC LITERARY SCENE!!! In a remarkable show of solidarity and support for New York City, some of the leading global poets from the UK, Ireland, Australia, Canada, India, France, Hungary, Wales, and the United States among many nations will be participating in Fuse Week from October 14 to October 21, 2002. Numerous literary readings and events are scheduled at the New School, Baruch College, and library branches featuring Paul Muldoon, Simon Armitage, Glyn Maxwell, Mimi Khalvati, Eamon Grennan, Srikanth Reddy, Charles Bernstein, Bob Holman, and others. The seven days of programs will focus on the fusion of world cultures and the perceptions of the United States around the world. The week will begin with a major reading at the New School's Tishman Auditorium on October 15 at 8:00 PM to launch Short Fuse: The Global Anthology of New Fusion Poetry. The event is hosted by the editors, Todd Swift and Philip Norton, and features over forty of the most innovative poets from around the world including Featuring Simon Armitage, Charles Bernstein, Glyn Maxwell, Bob Holman, Patricia Smith, Ron Silliman, Willie Perdomo, Todd Colby, Regie Cabico, Emily XYZ, Robert Allen, Edwin Torres, DJ Renegade, Zoe Anglesey, Adeena Karasick, Fortner Anderson, Prageeta Sharma, Wednesday Kennedy, Penn Kemp, Guillermo Castro, Mary O'Donoghue, Richard Peabody, Victoria Stanton, Vincent Tinguely, David McGimpsey, Helen Thomas, Barbara DeCesare, Corey Frost, Ian Ferrier, Joshua Auerbach, Robert Priest, Sean Thomas Dougherty, Catherine Kidd, Kevin Higgins, Rosemary Dun, Tug Dumbly, Ben Doyle Jill Battson, K?lina Gotman, Andrea Thompson, Dawna Matrix Jason Pettus, Heather Hermant, Larry Jaffe, Sean M. Whelan, Lauren Williams, Siobhan Fitzpatrick, David Hill, Silvana Straw, Srikanth Reddy, Hal Niedzviecki, Laurie Anne Fuhr, Stephen Brockwell, Matthew Miller, Jeffrey McDaniel, and MTC Cronin. The anthology also includes a CD and portions of the proceeds will be donated to UNICEF. Other notable events include Brit Lit: New Writing from the UK and Ireland featuring Paul Muldoon, Simon Armitage, Glyn Maxwell, Mimi Khalvati, Pascale Petit, and Bernardine Evaristo on Thursday, October 17, 2002 at 7:00 PM at Engelman Recital Hall, Baruch College. A full listing of Fuse Week's programs is listed below. Additional information available at http://www.rattapallax.com/fusion.htm Some of programs are sponsored by CLMP, Baruch College Performing Arts, Poets House, Rattapallax, New School Graduate Writing Program, and Australia Council for the Arts. Contact: Ram Devineni / (212)-723-4125 / devineni at rattapallax.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Oct 14 08:29:06 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:29:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Andrei Codrescu, "work" Message-ID: work at night the day is constantly woken up by exploding dream objects until all our days are tired and collapse on our hearts like loud zippers breaking in the middle. i sleep in the daytime with my head on the piano. i sleep at night too standing on the roof. i sleep all the sleep that is given me plus the sleep of those who can't sleep and the sleep of great animals who lie wounded and unable to sleep. i'm dead tired from the work everyone does ceaselessly around me, from the work the morning crowds are going to do after they are thrown up by the thousand mouths of toast and cologne into the buses and subways, from the work the plants do to get water from the labors of beasts looking for meat from the labors of speaking replying writing from the work going on inside me with a million greedy cells beating the shit out each other from the work of the sun turning around and the earth turning around it. i'm tired in general and sleepy in particular. i have a great desire to move elsewhere. --Andrei Codrescu fr. *The History of the Growth of Heaven*, 1973 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 14 11:06:20 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality In-Reply-To: <007601c27331$6d1994e0$6f864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <20021014150620.62062.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote:Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 9:09 PMSubject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Okay--I see your point here, but you can't be serious, right? I mean, all language is sexist--English being one of the least sexist. At lease we don't have masculine and feminine endings for nouns like "pen" or "jacket." My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another. Of course, Zan, this is just my opinion. Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: As usual, it's the male gender standing in/speaking for everyone. sigh. Zan----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:50 PMSubject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for yourself! You're all *individuals*!" And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all individuals." Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great world will come round to him. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Oct 14 11:30:27 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:30:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Jim Harrison, "Return to Yesenin" Message-ID: Return to Yesenin *For only in praising is my heart still mine, so violently do I know the world.* --Rilke I forgot to say that at the moment of death Yesenin stood there like a misty-eyed pioneer woman trying to figure out what happened. Were the children still in the burning barn with the bawling cows? He was too sensitive for words, and the idea of a rope was a wound he couldn't stop picking at. To step back from this swinging man twisting clockwise is to see how we mine ourselves too deeply, that way down there we can break through the soul's rock into a black underground river that sweeps us away. To be frank, I'd rather live to feed my dogs knowing the world says *no* in ten thousand ways and *yes* in only a few. The dogs don't need another weeping Jesus on the cross of Art, strumming the scars to keep them alive, tending them in a private garden as if our night-blooming tumors were fruit. I let you go for twenty years and am now only checking to see if you're really dead. There was an urge to put a few bullets through Nixon's coffin or a big, sharp wooden stake, and a girl told me she just saw Jimmy Hendrix at an AIDS benefit in Santa Monica. How could I disbelieve her when her nipples were rosebuds though you had to avoid the snakes in her hair. If you had hung yourself in Argentina you would have twisted counter-clockwise. We can't ask if it was worth it, can we? Anymore than we can ask a whale its mother's name. Too bad we couldn't go to Mexico together and croak a few small gods to life. I've entered my third act and am still following my songs on that thin line between woods and field, well short of the mouth of your hell. --Jim Harrison fr. *The Party Train: A Collection of North American Prose Poetry* eds. Robert Alexander, Mark Vinz, & C. W. Truesdale Minneapolis: New Rivers Press, 1996 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From elemenope at icubed.com Mon Oct 14 12:12:29 2002 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 00:12:29 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] 1. Re: Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response to my calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry that I've every gotten. (ganesha) In-Reply-To: <200210141227.g9ECR3628566@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200210141227.g9ECR3628566@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: If the country weren't at war, I might take you up on it -- but it wouldn't be Prozac. Prozac induces the kind of insufferable myopia that doesn't acknowledge danger, especially cultural danger. Gruman believes that he can simply call something "stupid" and because he waves his hands in front of his own face, what he has announced is ratified. Well, on Prozac the RadLibs through their proxies the Dems what to RAT-ify the entire country! Singing along with Barbra Steisand as they turn the place over to the UN. I'll just take a James Bond martini, thank you, stirred not shaken. >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest >response to mycalls over the years for a list of schools of poetry >that I've everygotten. (ganesha) > 2. Re: Schools of Poetry (ganesha) > 3. Re: Pronouns and Sexuality (ganesha) > 4. Re: Baraka analysis (ganesha) > 5. Re: Australian wins Britain's biggest poetry prize (ganesha) > 6. Re: "FUSE WEEK" (ganesha) > 7. Poems by others: Andrei Codrescu, "work" (Halvard Johnson) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >From: "ganesha" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the >stupidest response to mycalls over the years for a list of schools >of poetry that I've everygotten. >Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:09:49 +0800 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >And, well -- might be best for you to stay away from the Prozac, too ... or >perhaps have more ... > >Zan > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "ELEMENOPE Productions" >To: >Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 6:26 PM >Subject: [New-Poetry] Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest >response to mycalls over the years for a list of schools of poetry that I've >everygotten. > > >> >> >> >Let this Lone Star Ranger correct the substitute teacher on the >> >spelling of the word, "ever." >> >> >> As I recall, Black Bart's dope gofors draw their guns and go, "That >> mask sure is stupid, gulunk hah hah," before The Lone Ranger blasts >> their merde eating RadLib grins off their Prozac faces. >> >> >> >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >From: "ganesha" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry >Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:18:56 +0800 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Thank you, Michael, for this reasoned response. And might I add, I'm >frequently asked by readers if I consider my possible audience when writing. >I invariably reply, "Never." I'm not writing for other people; I'm writing >for myself. Of course, I'm still a great believer in editing for the >purpose of making each piece into the best that it can be. > >As to belonging to any particular school, my writing has changed so much >over the past ten years (and is still changing) that it would be bloody >difficult to slot myself anywhere. > >Zan > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael Karl Ritchie" >To: >Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 8:47 AM >Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry > > >> It seems to me that schools of poetry were determined by scholars of >> literature as an Aristotelian means of categorizing aesthetic movements > > symptomatic of a given time or age. Especially since the "New Critics," >the >> approach to interpreting poetry valorized certain poets and devalued >> others, emphasizing art for art's sake, the importance of irony, etc. In >> order to validate shifts in artistic consciousness, certain poets began to >> categorize themselves: Pound & Eliot; the "Beat" movement; the >> Objectivists; the Expansive Poets; the Language Poets. Since academia is >> one market where a mass of students are required to read assigned works of >> literature, to be part of a literary movement is a selling point for many >> writers. However, in the actual world of writing, thinking in schools >leads >> to following the herd, an instinct that might result in greater >> marketability but not necessarily in worthwhile poetry. Most writers whom >I >> know, wherther making fiction or poetry, do not think in schools, and many >> refuse to be categorized. >> >> Michael Karl (Ritchie) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 3 >From: "ganesha" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality >Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:26:00 +0800 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C27374.791539F0 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how = >gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students = >who just don't see what I mean. Of course, it isn't easy to see what = >one is part of. > >I'm not demanding anyone drop pronouns, just be more inclusive. It = >ain't that big an ask =20 >-- femmes do it all the time. > >Zan > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Jeff Newberry=20 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 9:09 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality > > > Okay--I see your point here, but you can't be serious, right? I mean, = >all language is sexist--English being one of the least sexist. At lease = >we don't have masculine and feminine endings for nouns like "pen" or = >"jacket."=20 > > My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all = >pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended = >by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to = >do with one another.=20 > > Of course, Zan, this is just my opinion.=20 > > =20 > > Jeff Newberry=20 > > ganesha wrote:=20 > > As usual, it's the male gender standing in/speaking for everyone. = >sigh. > > Zan > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=20 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 12:50 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of poetry > > > In a message dated 10/9/2002 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, = >grahamd at ripon.edu writes:=20 > > So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like "Think for = >yourself!=20 > You're all *individuals*!" > > And of course they chant back in unison, "We're all = >individuals." > > Except for that one wise guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!" > > *That *guy is the poet who interests me most. > > > What Prof. Graham (Chapman) is trying to say is that if the single = >man set himself indomitably on his instincts and there abide, the great = >world will come round to him.=20 > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------= >----- > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more > faith.yahoo.com > >------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C27374.791539F0 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > >
Jeff, if you examine English = >closely, you'll soon=20 >realise just how gender biased it is.  I've often had this = >discussion with=20 >male students who just don't see what I mean.  Of course, it=20 >isn't easy to see what one is part of.
>
 
>
I'm not demanding anyone drop pronouns, just = >be more=20 >inclusive.  It ain't that big an ask 
>
-- femmes do it all the time.
>
 
>
Zan
>style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = >BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> >
----- Original Message -----
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = >black">From:=20 > href=3D"mailto:jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com">Jeff=20 > Newberry > >
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 = >9:09=20 > PM
>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns = >and=20 > Sexuality
>

>

Okay--I see your point here, but you can't be serious, right?  = >I mean,=20 > all language is sexist--English being one of the least sexist.  = >At lease=20 > we don't have masculine and feminine endings for nouns like "pen" or = >"jacket."=20 > >

My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop = >all=20 > pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended = >by my=20 > gender bias.  Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to = >do with=20 > one another.=20 >

Of course, Zan, this is just my opinion.=20 >

=20 >

Jeff Newberry=20 >

 ganesha <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au> wrote:=20 > style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px = >solid"> > > > >

As usual, it's the male gender standing = >in/speaking for=20 > everyone.  sigh.
>
 
>
Zan
> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = >BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> >
----- Original Message ----- = >
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = >black">From:=20 > href=3D"mailto:Rsgwynn1 at cs.com">Rsgwynn1 at cs.com=20 > >
To: title=3Dnew-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > = >href=3D"mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu">new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu= >=20 >
>
Sent: Thursday, October 10, = >2002=20 > 12:50 PM
>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] = >Schools of=20 > poetry
>

face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF">In a message = >dated 10/9/2002=20 > 10:39:43 PM Central Daylight Time, href=3D"mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu">grahamd at ripon.edu writes: = >
> style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff = >2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20 > TYPE=3D"CITE">So, to the assembled crowd he shouts things like = >"Think for=20 > yourself!
You're all *individuals*!"

And of course = >they chant=20 > back in unison, "We're all individuals."

Except for that = >one wise=20 > guy in the back, who yells "I'm not!"

*That *guy is the = >poet who=20 > interests me most.

What Prof. Graham = >(Chapman) is=20 > trying to say is that if the single man set himself indomitably on = >his=20 > instincts and there abide, the great world will come round to him. = > > >


>

> Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - = >Exclusive=20 > Performances, Videos, & more
= >href=3D"http://faith.yahoo.com">faith.yahoo.comHTML> > >------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C27374.791539F0-- > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 4 >From: "ganesha" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Baraka analysis >Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:33:58 +0800 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Frankly, I think this contemporary version of Leroi shouldn't be accorded >any more attention than he has already been graced with. Let's lay down the >flyswat and get on with more interesting topics, eh? > >Zan > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Paul Lake" >To: >Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 12:14 AM >Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka analysis > > >An amusing analysis of Baraka's now-famous poem, by John Derbyshire: > > >>Most of the poem, in fact, is in the interrogative mood. 162 of the 226 >lines >begin with the word "Who." > > >>Who do Tom Ass Clarence work for >>Who doo doo come out the Colon's mouth >>Who know what kind of Skeeza is a Condoleeza >>Who pay Connelly [sic] to be a wooden negro > > >>A little exegesis is called for here, I think. "Tom Ass Clarence" is >Clarence >Thomas, a hate figure to black radicals, who think that writing his name >that way is screamingly funny, even after eleven years of doing it. "The >Colon" is Colin Powell < this is another thigh-slapper around the >black-studies department watercooler. A "skeeza" is a woman with a bad >reputation. "Condoleeza" is of course Dr. Condoleezza Rice, the president's >national-security adviser, one of the smartest women in America (Nicholas >Lemann has a good profile of her in the Oct. 14-21 New Yorker), and >"Connelly" must be Ward Connerly, the well-known opponent of race quotas, >another hate figure to the blacker-than-thou crowd. > >>So what is the answer to all these questions? Even rhetorical questions >have >answers, you know. If you have any acquaintance with black radicals, you >might suspect that the answer is: the Jews. (To make a Jesse Jacksonism out >of it: "The answer to the whos / Is the 13-letter-expletive Jews / Ain't no >use askin' 'Why me?' / We pinned it on you, Hymie.") There is indeed some >supporting evidence for this suspicion. There are the lines above, >obviously, and also: > > >>Who know who decide >Jesus get crucified > > >This seems to be a rephrasing of the oldest anti-Semitic cry of all: They >killed Our Lord! And then again: > > >Who know why five Israelis was filming the explosion >And cracking they sides at the notion > > >Looks like for sure it's those bloodsucking Jews. But wait a minute: at line >162 we have: > > >Who put the Jews in ovens, >and who helped them do it > > >Mr. Baraka is a self-declared communist, you see. Line 161: "Who put a price >on Lenin's head." (Whoever it was, I'd like to shake his hand. < JD) He is >also a black man. Now, Hitler thought blacks were an inferior race, and he >also persecuted communists. Mr. Baraka therefore feels under a double >compulsion to dislike Hitler. But, whoa! < Hitler killed Jews, didn't he? >And Jews are evil, aren't they? You might think this would be a tough circle >for Mr. Baraka to square. Not a bit of it. Some of those Jews were >communists, you see. Line 166: "Who killed Rosa Luxembourg [sic... I'm going >to leave out the sics from now on < just take it from me, the spelling of >proper names is not Mr. Baraka's strong suit. Spelling, after all, is just >another one of those soul-constricting Ice People gimmicks], Liebneckt / Who >murdered the Rosenbergs..." Communism trumps Jewishness, you see. Communists >are, in fact, sort of honorary black people < even when they're Jewish! And >a black communist is, of course, to die for: "Who poison Robeson / Who try >to put Du Bois in jail." > >This still leaves us with some puzzles. "Who backed Batista, Hitler, Bilbo, >/ Chiang kai Chek." Leaving aside the Hobbit < how did he get in there? < >and the pre-Castro Cuban dictator (whose regime was described by U.S. >ambassador Sumner Wells as "frankly communistic," and who was praised by the >communist leader Blas Roca as "the father of the Popular Front"), at least >part of the answer in the case of the other two was: Stalin. The Soviet >dictator went into alliance with Hitler, after all, and sold him all the war >materiel he'd take. He backed Chiang Kai-shek to the very end. The last >person Chiang shook hands with on the Chinese mainland, before departing for >exile in Taiwan, was the Soviet ambassador. > >Mere historical truth is of course beneath the notice of a poetic genius >like Amiri Baraka. If you actually try answering some of his questions, in >fact, you get into some very confusing terrain. "Who killed the most >Africans?" Other Africans, without any doubt. Tribal warfare has been >endemic in Africa since remote antiquity, except for the few brief decades >when European colonizers suppressed it. "Who bought the slaves, who sold >them?" Same answer, mostly. Every single pre-colonial African society was >slave-owning, and some post-colonial ones have resumed the tradition. "Who >killed Malcolm?" Some black radicals he'd fallen out with. "Who keep the >Irish a colony?" I dunno < ask Bertie Ahern, prime minister of the Irish >Republic. (Then tell me whose navy shut down the Atlantic slave trade.) "Who >got rich from Armenian genocide?" You got me on that one, Amiri. Who did? > >Then, just as you start to feel that the contradictions have piled up to an >unacceptable height < wheeee! With one bound our hero is free. Employing the >rhetorical device poets call metastasis (change of subject, more or less) he >leaps from dark speculations about the origin of AIDS and the fate of Paul >Robeson to... exploding owls. Yep, you heard it right. > > >Explosion of Owl the newspaper say >The devil face cd be seen. > > >I have to confess, Mr. Baraka lost me here. Who is this exploding owl? Where >did he fly in from? Could this be some sort of typo? No, twelve lines later >we get showered with feathers again: > > >Like an Owl exploding >In your life in your brain in your self > > >This leads in, somehow, to a closing crescendo: > > >...We hear the questions rise >...... >Like the acid vomit of the fire of Hell >Who and Who and WHO who who >Whoooo and Whooooooooooooooooooooo! > > >I never did figure out what the exploding owl is doing in there, but by the >time I got to "Whooooooooooooooooooooo!" I felt pretty sure I knew the >answer to all those whos. It's us white devils, the ones who aren't >communists, and most especially those of us who are Jews but not communists. > >Pleased with having got to the bottom of this "powerful and respected" >poet's challenging production, I felt inspired to have a go at something >along the same lines myself. I cannot hope to compete with such a giant of >American letters, of course, but imitation is the sincerest form of >flattery, and I hope Mr. Baraka will take my feeble effort in that spirit. >Everybody has to start somewhere, after all. Amiri Baraka, for example, >started out as LeRoi Jones, a humble organizer of race riots back in the >1960s. Who knows? If I keep at it long enough, maybe I could become Poet >Laureate of New York State. I could sure use 10,000 bucks. OK, here goes. > > >Somebody Stuck It To New Jersey Taxpayers >by John Derbyshire > >Who took help from Jews when getting his scam started >Then turned and spat on them when a cozy sinecure came along >Who praises despots, wreckers of nations >Murderers, despoilers of innocence < Kabila, Lumumba, Lenin, Che >Who thinks Nkrumah was a benefactor of anyone but himself >Who believes the most transparent driveling anti-Semitic lies about 9/11 >Who thinks "Tom Ass" is a really, really funny way to write "Thomas" >Who mau-maued the governor >Who put one over on the guilty white liberals at those fool Art Councils >Who's an illiterate moron >So stupid he can't even keep his racism straight... > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 5 >From: "ganesha" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Australian wins Britain's biggest poetry prize >Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:43:15 +0800 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Just so you know, Peter Porter hasn't lived in Australia in decades and >doesn't consider himself Australian. Most writers here don't consider him >Australian, either. > >Having looked at the book in question, I'm gobsmacked that it won anything >other than a chook raffle, but there you are ... Still, I felt the same when >Les Murray won the T.S.Eliot a few years back for _Subhuman Redneck Poems_. > >Those of us who write and continue to live "DOWN UNDER" consider this >positioning merely a matter of perspective. > >Zan > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 5:37 AM >Subject: [New-Poetry] Australian wins Britain's biggest poetry prize > > >> I can't resist saying that perhaps this proves the adage, >> You can't keep a good poet down under... >> ----- >> Australian wins Britain's biggest poetry prize >> Wed Oct 9, 2:47 PM ET >> >> LONDON - Australian Peter Porter won Britain's top poetry award Wednesday >for >> his collection "Max is Missing." >> >> >> >> Porter, 73, who lives in Britain, won the Waterstone's Prize for best >> collection and picked up a 10,000 pound (US$15,500) prize. >> >> "Porter is one of the most distinguished poets at work in Britain today," >> said William Sieghart, chairman of the judges. >> >> '"Max is Missing' is a contemporary, witty, urbane and vibrant >collection," >> he continued. "To anybody with any curiosity, it will be seen at once as >both >> urgent and timeless. An elegiac, satirical and contemplative delight." >> >> The work is Porter's 16th book. >> >> The prize for best first collection went to Tom French, of Dublin, for >> "Touching The Bones." Medbh McGuckian, who lives in Belfast, won the >Tolman >> Cunard Prize for best single poem, for "She Is In The Past, She Has This >> Grace." >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 6 >From: "ganesha" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "FUSE WEEK" >Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:47:44 +0800 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >I'm cringing beyond reason over the selection of poets from Australia that >are participating. They are far from being our best. > >Zan > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 5:29 AM >Subject: [New-Poetry] "FUSE WEEK" > > >Subject: "FUSE WEEK" IGNITES THE NYC LITERARY >SCENE!!! > >In a remarkable show of solidarity and support for >New York City, >some of the leading global poets from the UK, >Ireland, Australia, >Canada, India, France, Hungary, Wales, and the >United States among >many nations will be participating in Fuse Week >from October 14 to >October 21, 2002. Numerous literary readings and >events are >scheduled at the New School, Baruch College, and >library branches >featuring Paul Muldoon, Simon Armitage, Glyn >Maxwell, Mimi Khalvati, >Eamon Grennan, Srikanth Reddy, Charles Bernstein, >Bob Holman, and >others. The seven days of programs will focus on >the fusion of world >cultures and the perceptions of the United States >around the world. > >The week will begin with a major reading at the >New School's Tishman >Auditorium on October 15 at 8:00 PM to launch >Short Fuse: The Global >Anthology of New Fusion Poetry. The event is >hosted by the editors, >Todd Swift and Philip Norton, and features over >forty of the most >innovative poets from around the world including >Featuring Simon >Armitage, Charles Bernstein, Glyn Maxwell, Bob >Holman, Patricia >Smith, Ron Silliman, Willie Perdomo, Todd Colby, >Regie Cabico, Emily >XYZ, Robert Allen, Edwin Torres, DJ Renegade, Zoe >Anglesey, Adeena >Karasick, Fortner Anderson, Prageeta Sharma, >Wednesday Kennedy, Penn >Kemp, Guillermo Castro, Mary O'Donoghue, Richard >Peabody, Victoria >Stanton, Vincent Tinguely, David McGimpsey, Helen >Thomas, Barbara >DeCesare, Corey Frost, Ian Ferrier, Joshua >Auerbach, Robert Priest, >Sean Thomas Dougherty, Catherine Kidd, Kevin >Higgins, Rosemary Dun, >Tug Dumbly, Ben Doyle Jill Battson, K?lina Gotman, >Andrea Thompson, >Dawna Matrix Jason Pettus, Heather Hermant, Larry >Jaffe, Sean M. >Whelan, Lauren Williams, Siobhan Fitzpatrick, >David Hill, Silvana >Straw, Srikanth Reddy, Hal Niedzviecki, Laurie >Anne Fuhr, Stephen >Brockwell, Matthew Miller, Jeffrey McDaniel, and >MTC Cronin. The >anthology also includes a CD and portions of the >proceeds will be >donated to UNICEF. > >Other notable events include Brit Lit: New Writing >from the UK and >Ireland featuring Paul Muldoon, Simon Armitage, >Glyn Maxwell, Mimi >Khalvati, Pascale Petit, and Bernardine Evaristo >on Thursday, >October 17, 2002 at 7:00 PM at Engelman Recital >Hall, Baruch College. > >A full listing of Fuse Week's programs is listed >below. Additional >information available at >http://www.rattapallax.com/fusion.htm > >Some of programs are sponsored by CLMP, Baruch >College Performing >Arts, Poets House, Rattapallax, New School >Graduate Writing Program, >and Australia Council for the Arts. > >Contact: Ram Devineni / (212)-723-4125 / >devineni at rattapallax.com >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 7 >From: "Halvard Johnson" >To: "New-Poetry" >Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 08:29:06 -0400 >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Andrei Codrescu, "work" >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >work > >at night the day is constantly woken up >by exploding dream objects >until all our days are tired >and collapse on our hearts like loud >zippers breaking in the middle. >i sleep in the daytime with my head on the piano. >i sleep at night too standing on the roof. >i sleep all the sleep that is given me plus >the sleep of those who can't sleep and the sleep >of great animals who lie wounded >and unable to sleep. >i'm dead tired from the work everyone does >ceaselessly around me, from the work the morning >crowds are going to do after they are thrown up >by the thousand mouths of toast and cologne >into the buses and subways, >from the work the plants do to get water >from the labors of beasts looking for meat >from the labors of speaking replying writing >from the work going on inside me with a million >greedy cells beating the shit out each other >from the work of the sun turning around >and the earth turning around it. >i'm tired in general and sleepy in particular. >i have a great desire to move elsewhere. > >--Andrei Codrescu > >fr. *The History of the Growth of Heaven*, 1973 > >Hal > >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- From elemenope at icubed.com Mon Oct 14 12:15:10 2002 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 00:15:10 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] 1. Re: Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response to my calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry that I've every gotten. (ganesha) Message-ID: If the country weren't at war, I might take you up on it -- but it wouldn't be Prozac. Prozac induces the kind of insufferable myopia that doesn't acknowledge danger, especially cultural danger. Gruman believes that he can simply call something "stupid" and because he waves his hands in front of his own face, what he has announced is ratified. Well, on Prozac the RadLibs through their proxies the Dems what to RAT-ify the entire country! Singing along with Barbra Steisand as they turn the place over to the UN. I'll just take a James Bond martini, thank you, stirred not shaken. RD > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >From: "ganesha" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the >stupidest response to mycalls over the years for a list of schools >of poetry that I've everygotten. >Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 11:09:49 +0800 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >And, well -- might be best for you to stay away from the Prozac, too ... or >perhaps have more ... > >Zan > > > >Let this Lone Star Ranger correct the substitute teacher on the >> >spelling of the word, "ever." >> >> >> As I recall, Black Bart's dope gofors draw their guns and go, "That >> mask sure is stupid, gulunk hah hah," before The Lone Ranger blasts > > their merde eating RadLib grins off their Prozac faces. > > > From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Oct 14 14:10:53 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:10:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Rakosi Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F73@mail.ripon.edu> ============================================ From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Oct 14 15:28:01 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:28:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Baghdad Rumors" Message-ID: Baghdad Rumors After trading resumed, the markets indexed gunfire in the Iraqi capital, heavy profit-taking and unconfirmed rumors of a seemingly fit and healthy Saddam Hussein last seen at a monument to the unknown Iraqi soldier, with leaders gathered on Saturday to counterpoint persistent drumbeats of war, of ?p?e-rattling in the War Room, by hinting that the sanctions economy has created two explosions of visible wealth-- in Egypt and in Syria. The bomb and the coming of peace in the Middle East alarmed members of the US Congress, globalism having given rise to--behold!--a red horse. No secret agendas, for a change. Jerusalem reports, by now familiar, discuss toppling Saddam, Saddam's son, his lineage, averting international disaster by using its nuclear arms unless Arafat sparks new economic hopes, unless political and security intelligence analysis sounds the fifth trumpet of Revelation anytime soon. Recommended an abortion, she traveled to Aleppo, was given the crowns like gold, and their consolidation of her grip on power by eliminating players unlikely to leave space for her army. Ordering his army to destroy the regime in Damascus, he may withdraw from negotiations in Baghdad if the Iraqi leadership played a role in persuading global and regional economic interests to revise or even expand the oil-for-food program sometime in the near future. But Saddam's rule, repressive as ever, with few visible scars, until Iraqi exile groups routinely spread rumors, uncovering and dismantling many of his military intelligence advisers, but again, particularly after learning that he feared that uncontrolled uprising would, with Russia emerging as an oil-provider to the West, confine him to his palaces, wearying of his battle of wits with a US undeterred by scandal and internal dissent. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 14 16:42:12 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:42:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Elements of am Effective Poem References: <20021012164725.3BE254442@sitemail.everyone.net> <001001c272d5$93e73980$a674fea9@j1c1k6> <3DA9A7E8.5B4578DA@earthlink.net> <00e801c272de$4934d2e0$a674fea9@j1c1k6> <3DA9E123.7A3581B5@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002001c273c2$2d56ad20$33d5fea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > I did it! I did it, teacher! here it is: > > > > Yes, you did, Jimmy--you were the first to make fun of the silly man who > > believes poets are foolish who turn off the analytical portions of their > > minds. You get an A. > > > > --Bob G. > > No, no. I had all the analytical switches on, and I even know what > school of poetry the poem falls into: the premeditated school. Ah, but you only turned them on to demonstrate the foolishness of turning them on. I thought your poem not really too bad, though. If you went back through it with what analytical switches you are able to turn on, and keeping in mind the elements an effective poem has (in my opinion or yours), you could probably make something pretty interesting out of it. I've already used my own slight analysis of it to come up with a poem of my own I rather like: Afternoon Marketing @ Publix @ 3 marveling @ the @pples Notes: (1) the title is weak but I believe in titles; I hope to find an improved title. (2) Publix is the name of a supermarket chain. (3) I made this poem after observing via analysis that your poem was weak in equaphor, and that you used your @'s to little point, so far as I could tell only to satisfy my suggestion that one use near-words. Since an equaphor is a way of saying two things at once, which an @ can do, I realized one could make a minor equaphor by using it as "at" and "a" at the same time. Hence, the idea of the "at" apples can metaphorically contain. I suspect I can find a more appropriate object to put an @, though. Incidentally, would you consider unplannedness a necessary element of an effective poem? Or even a valuable but not necessary element? I think poems that seem unplanned usually give more pleasure than those that seem planned, but I can think of times when very overt plannedness can work poetically--if only to set up a sudden spontaneity. --Bob G. --Bob G. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Oct 14 16:51:51 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The bashing of those whose hair is not on fire Message-ID: <20021014205151.69D444019@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 14 17:00:04 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:00:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 1. Re: Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidestresponse to my calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry thatI've every gotten. (ganesha) References: <200210141227.g9ECR3628566@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <004c01c273c4$abd459c0$33d5fea9@j1c1k6> Subject: [New-Poetry] 1. Re: Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response to my calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry thatI've every gotten. > If the country weren't at war, I might take you up on it -- but it > wouldn't be Prozac. Prozac induces the kind of insufferable myopia > that doesn't acknowledge danger, especially cultural danger. Gruman > believes that he can simply call something "stupid" and because he > waves his hands in front of his own face, what he has announced is > ratified. The name is "Grumman." Your post was a ridiculously inappropriate response to my request. It was also incoherent. Aside from that, what in my comment leads you to conclude that I believe that "because (I wave my) hands in front of (my) own face, what (I have) announced is ratified?" All I did was express an opinion. > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest > >response to mycalls over the years for a list of schools of poetry that I've > >everygotten. multi-snips > >> >Let this Lone Star Ranger correct the substitute teacher on the > >> >spelling of the word, "ever." Sorry, the post of yours I called the stupidest my call for schools has ever gotten still is, but your follow-ups are extremely stupid, as well. --Bob G. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Oct 14 17:34:31 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:34:31 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The bashing of those whose hair is not on fire References: <20021014205151.69D444019@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <3DAB3866.E82A8EB8@earthlink.net> "Robert R.Cobb" wrote: > > Jim, > > You wrote: tired formalism or modest aspirations, though I suppose there could be > >an intensely tired formalism. > > > Bob replied: > > Do you mean "tiered" rather than "tired"? That works, though I might have been heading toward "wearing an intense tiara with her formal." - Jim p.s. - you're tending to rather old mail - gives a new meaning to "dead letters." From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Oct 14 17:36:52 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:36:52 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Elements of am Effective Poem References: <20021012164725.3BE254442@sitemail.everyone.net> <001001c272d5$93e73980$a674fea9@j1c1k6> <3DA9A7E8.5B4578DA@earthlink.net> <00e801c272de$4934d2e0$a674fea9@j1c1k6> <3DA9E123.7A3581B5@earthlink.net> <002001c273c2$2d56ad20$33d5fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DAB38F3.B3A976A@earthlink.net> I much prefer my poem even if I wrote it in 10 minutes, your criteria to the right and a blank slate to the left. - Jim Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > > I did it! I did it, teacher! here it is: > > > > > > Yes, you did, Jimmy--you were the first to make fun of the silly man who > > > believes poets are foolish who turn off the analytical portions of their > > > minds. You get an A. > > > > > > --Bob G. > > > > No, no. I had all the analytical switches on, and I even know what > > school of poetry the poem falls into: the premeditated school. > > Ah, but you only turned them on to demonstrate the foolishness of turning > them on. I thought your poem not really too bad, though. If you went back > through it with what analytical switches you are able to turn on, and > keeping in mind the elements an effective poem has (in my opinion or yours), > you could probably make something pretty interesting out of it. I've > already used my own slight analysis of it to come up with a poem of my own I > rather like: > > Afternoon Marketing > > @ Publix @ 3 > marveling @ > the @pples > > Notes: (1) the title is weak but I believe in titles; I hope to find an > improved title. (2) Publix is the name of a supermarket chain. (3) I made > this poem after observing via analysis that your poem was weak in equaphor, > and that you used your @'s > to little point, so far as I could tell only to satisfy my suggestion that > one use near-words. Since an equaphor is a way of saying two things at > once, which an @ can do, I realized one could make a minor equaphor by using > it as "at" and "a" at the same time. Hence, the idea of the "at" apples can > metaphorically contain. > > I suspect I can find a more appropriate object to put an @, though. > > Incidentally, would you consider unplannedness a necessary element of an > effective poem? Or even a valuable but not necessary element? I think > poems that seem unplanned usually give more pleasure than those that seem > planned, but I can think of times when very overt plannedness can work > poetically--if only to set up a sudden spontaneity. > > --Bob G. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Oct 14 19:25:59 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The bashing of those whose hair is not on fire Message-ID: <20021014232600.3B7F9E4B8@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 14 20:04:56 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 20:04:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Elements of am Effective Poem References: <20021012164725.3BE254442@sitemail.everyone.net> <001001c272d5$93e73980$a674fea9@j1c1k6> <3DA9A7E8.5B4578DA@earthlink.net> <00e801c272de$4934d2e0$a674fea9@j1c1k6> <3DA9E123.7A3581B5@earthlink.net> <002001c273c2$2d56ad20$33d5fea9@j1c1k6> <3DAB38F3.B3A976A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <013e01c273de$7f3af760$33d5fea9@j1c1k6> > I much prefer my poem even if I wrote it in 10 minutes, your criteria to > the right and a blank slate to the left. > > - Jim By my criteria, my poem beats yours to shreds--and remember, it is *I* who am the teacher. Seriously, do you not find the use of @ to do two things at once interesting? What do you think of the use of "at" (implicitly) as a noun? What did you do in your poem that's comparable? If you did not, it would not mean (for me) that your poem is necessarily inferior to mine. --Bob G. From Cadaly at aol.com Mon Oct 14 21:11:22 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:11:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] reading in la Message-ID: <4AC31347.5D9C6925.00045B92@aol.com> The Valley Contemporary Poets will present a reading by Ralph Angel and Holaday Mason, Sunday, October 20, 2002. This is an wonderful opportunity to hear two accomplished poets in an intimate setting. Date: October 20, 2002 Time: 3:00 pm Where: Portrait of a Bookstore, 4360 Tujunga, Studio City. Open reading sign-up: 2:45 pm. A $3.00 donation is requested. (818) 769-3853. a little more about the poets: RALPH ANGEL Ralph Angel is the author of "Twice Removed"(Sarabande Books, 2001), "Neither World", which received the 1995 James Laughlin Award, and "Anxious Latitudes" (1986). His poems have appeared in The New Yorker, Poetry, The Antioch Review, The American Poetry Review, and many other magazines, and have been collected in numerous anthologies, including The Best American Poetry, New American Poets of the 90s, and Forgotten Language: Contemporary Poets and Nature. His recent honors include a Pushcart Prize, and awards from the Fulbright Foundation and Poetry magazine. Mr. Angel is the Edith R. White Endowed Chair in English at the University of Redlands, and a member of the MFA Program in Writing faculty at Vermont College. Originally from Seattle, he now lives in Los Angeles HOLADAY MASON Holaday Mason has published two chapbooks: "Light Spilling From its Own Cup"(Inevitable Press,1999) and "Interlude" (Far Star Fire Press, 2001). Nominated for a Pushcart Prize in 2000, her work has appeared in such journals as Poetry International, Spillway, Cider Press Review, The Yalobusha Review, The Portland Review, The Nebraska Review, Art/Life, and Echo 681, which she co-edited for Beyond Baroque. She has just completed her first book length manuscript of poems,"Hunting the Once Night." *** The reading is in the back courtyard. Come early to browse books, drink coffee and eat yummy pastries. Hope to see you there! From Ex2deuce at aol.com Tue Oct 15 07:09:42 2002 From: Ex2deuce at aol.com (Ex2deuce at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:09:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka analysis Message-ID: <155.15f0d427.2add5176@aol.com> zan ganeish thought that Baraka had changed his name too much from Leroi because he is black. Like, Puff daddy. One time I was best friends with a black Leroi who liked to wear maked up, blackeye shadow and lips stick. He also wore a short dress and you could see his peckerwood underneath it. he should have also wore panties too. But maybe it is a different black leroi. He had a good heart. Thanks you zan for a enjoyable comment on namechanging. Luv Billie From rlong at jcws.net Tue Oct 15 09:16:50 2002 From: rlong at jcws.net (Richard Long) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:16:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chapbook by Mary Leonard Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021015081615.01d1f168@pop3.slu.edu> 2River release today Twenty-First Century Flint, a chapbook by Mary Leonard, with art by Mark Flowers. Twenty-First Century Flint, number 13 in the 2River Chapbook Series, is an archaeological dig in which the writer and reader uncover shards and relics of the memory, discovering in the process forgotten ways to both the past and future. You can read Twenty-First Century Flint by going to the 2River home page, www.2River.org, where you'll see links directly to the chapbook. Richard Long www.2River.org From Ex2deuce at aol.com Tue Oct 15 09:49:10 2002 From: Ex2deuce at aol.com (Ex2deuce at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:49:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] namecalling; was Baraka Message-ID: <59.2320d145.2add76d6@aol.com> The leroi I had known about as my friend was highly black-complected, with pointy pair of hooters and a curly-hairy wig. He looked good however. Does this discription ring a bell with the other black Leroi? Maybe its the same individual. Does anyone know if their is a realistic picture or a photo of them on the internut? Luv, Bilie From Ex2deuce at aol.com Tue Oct 15 10:52:39 2002 From: Ex2deuce at aol.com (Ex2deuce at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:52:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] the bashing of those whose hair is not on fire Message-ID: <21.25cee984.2add85b7@aol.com> Robert R.Cobb" had clearly stated it first: > > Jim, > > You wrote: tired formalism or modest aspirations, though I suppose there could be > >an intensely tired formalism. > > > Next to last, Bob answered back to him in reply: > > Do you mean "tiered" rather than "tired"? Jim spoke the last after everybody: That works, though I might have been heading toward "wearing an intense tiara with her formal." Dear Jim Cervanities, this sounds like you were looking at black Leroi in your intense desription of a tiara. Except you ommitted seeing any peckerwod sticking out. If I could see a drawing of Baraka i could identify with it or leroi jones. If their are 2 of them in New jersey people might be mixed up over it. Otherwise his poem would not have been so controversial to everybody like me, if I read it. I did not. Luv Billie From elemenope at icubed.com Tue Oct 15 11:31:52 2002 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 23:31:52 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] 5. Re: 1. Re: Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidestresponse to my calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry thatI've every gotten. (ganesha) (Bob Grumman) In-Reply-To: <200210151449.g9FEnC613040@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <200210151449.g9FEnC613040@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Stupid is as stupid is stupified. You were offered an actual school. To defeat the concept of this school, your genius method is to simply call it - with a limp wristed wave of your darted nails - "stupid." What you are offering as a "school" is a little personality cult built around what you call your "self." You just want to make a name for yourself and use the idea of a "school" to do it. Since you can't spell "ever" why should you be able to spell your own name? Give us a trope, Mr. Grumman, give us a trope. The Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry offers us all John Wayne's of hope. What do you offer? Screeds and snideries, Rules and little ironies. Give us a trope. -- From elemenope at icubed.com Tue Oct 15 12:33:39 2002 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 00:33:39 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] 5. Re: 1. Re: Grumman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest response to my calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry thatI've every gotten. (ganesha) (Bob Grumman) Message-ID: When this little contretemps started, my motive was to address the Baraka problem. It seemed useful to take the idea of a "school" and make a point with it, essentially: Baraka speaks from within "a "school of poetry or thinking" in America. Baraka's "school" hates America. The Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry" stands against the "Baraka School." It it weren't for Baraka's list of eminent academies that were willing in the name of Radical Liberal PC to aid and abet him, such a noxious character could never have degraded the concept of Poet Laureate. Maybe you think it is stupid to oppose BarakaIsm. Maybe you could care less. Baraka is poet laureate in a state which permitted its Democrat Party to break campaign election laws flagrantly and arrogantly. These are the same people who put Baraka into such an eminent position. We argue from different purposes. -- From Ex2deuce at aol.com Tue Oct 15 12:56:29 2002 From: Ex2deuce at aol.com (Ex2deuce at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:56:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 1. Re: Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidestresponse to my calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry thatI've every gotten. (ganesha) (Bob Grumman) Message-ID: Dear Elmnop, can you give me a closeup description of Barraka so I can tell if he is not the other black Leroi Jones, or if he is him? If you saw my Leroi Jones it would be a pretty rememorable experience for everybody. How could you forget him bursting his hooters out a pair pink tiittyholders and sheer nylons on his black hairy leg muscles? Ha ha!!! He had a very big busted. He was a sexy dude. Luv, Billie From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 15 19:59:26 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:59:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] 5. Re: 1. Re: Grumman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidestresponse to my calls over the years for a list of schools of poetrythatI've every gotten. (ganesha) (Bob Grumman) References: Message-ID: <012901c274a6$e4d2ab40$2b7efea9@j1c1k6> > When this little contretemps started, my motive was to address the > Baraka problem. It seemed useful to take the idea of a "school" and > make a point with it, essentially: Baraka speaks from within "a > "school of poetry or thinking" in America. Baraka's "school" hates > America. The Lone Star Ranger School of Poetry" stands against the > "Baraka School." It it weren't for Baraka's list of eminent > academies that were willing in the name of Radical Liberal PC to aid > and abet him, such a noxious character could never have degraded the > concept of Poet Laureate. > > Maybe you think it is stupid to oppose BarakaIsm. Maybe you could care less. > > Baraka is poet laureate in a state which permitted its Democrat Party > to break campaign election laws flagrantly and arrogantly. These are > the same people who put Baraka into such an eminent position. > > We argue from different purposes. Right. But you are doing your arguing on a thread I started with the hope of getting people to suggest schools of poetry, not indulge in silly political harangues about Baraka. Or, really, to argue about anything. As for your schools based on whether a poet is left-wing or right wing, they'd be of no more use in my scheme than schools based on whether a poet is blue-eyed or brown-eyed. That's it from me to you on this topic. --Bob G. From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Tue Oct 15 22:37:21 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:37:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ear Inn Reading Message-ID: <128.19223c69.2ade2ae1@aol.com> All, This Saturday at 3pm I'll be reading at The Ear Inn with Carol Ghiglieri and Chris Lew The Ear Inn 326 Spring Street (west of Greenwich Street) New York City Jeffrey Levine From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Oct 16 00:19:03 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:19:03 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality References: <20021014150620.62062.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008b01c274cb$2b3aeba0$46864cca@JROSS2> Jeff, My point is what you said below re, "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another." They bloody well do! Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin with. And femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just such issues of pronouns. Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Oct 16 00:43:12 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:43:12 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] 1. Re: Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidestresponse to my calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry thatI've every gotten. (ganesha) References: <200210141227.g9ECR3628566@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <004c01c273c4$abd459c0$33d5fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <010101c274ce$8ac29c50$46864cca@JROSS2> And here I've been restraining myself (generally) from being insulting ... Ignore, her/him, Bob, if you don't like what s/he says or the way s/he says it. Allowing baiting of one's blood pressure is terribly unhealthy. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 5:00 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 1. Re: Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidestresponse to my calls over the years for a list of schools of poetry thatI've every gotten. (ganesha) > Subject: [New-Poetry] 1. Re: Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the > stupidest response to my calls over the years for a list of schools of > poetry thatI've every gotten. > > > > If the country weren't at war, I might take you up on it -- but it > > wouldn't be Prozac. Prozac induces the kind of insufferable myopia > > that doesn't acknowledge danger, especially cultural danger. Gruman > > believes that he can simply call something "stupid" and because he > > waves his hands in front of his own face, what he has announced is > > ratified. > > The name is "Grumman." Your post was a ridiculously inappropriate response > to my request. > It was also incoherent. Aside from that, what in my comment leads you to > conclude that I believe that "because (I wave my) hands in front of (my) own > face, what (I have) announced is ratified?" All I did was express an > opinion. > > > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Gruman Wow, I think this may well be the stupidest > > >response to mycalls over the years for a list of schools of poetry that > I've > > >everygotten. > > multi-snips > > > >> >Let this Lone Star Ranger correct the substitute teacher on the > > >> >spelling of the word, "ever." > > Sorry, the post of yours I called the stupidest my call for schools has ever > gotten still is, but your follow-ups are extremely stupid, as well. > > --Bob G. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 16 07:49:58 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 04:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality In-Reply-To: <008b01c274cb$2b3aeba0$46864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <20021016114958.33975.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient. Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that sort of stuff. I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote:Jeff, My point is what you said below re, "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another." They bloody well do! Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin with. And femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just such issues of pronouns. Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PMSubject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Oct 16 08:28:43 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:28:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] English pronunciation survey In-Reply-To: <20021016114958.33975.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> References: <008b01c274cb$2b3aeba0$46864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <3DAD233B.18592.2CB22C@localhost> A survey from Harvard, asking detailed questions about how you pronounce words. Very interesting for one's own information -- makes you think about how you reely (rilly) say things. http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~golder/dialect/index.html Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu Tue Oct 15 20:59:28 2002 From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 19:59:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Message-ID: Consider old medical textbooks, where doctors were always "he" and nurses were alsays "she." Gender bias can be clearly exposed in this way. If "he/his" are generic pronouns that should apply to both sexes, then this sentence would make sense: "The patient should keep track of his period each month." Michael Karl From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Oct 16 09:16:15 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:16:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] art by anderson In-Reply-To: <008b01c274cb$2b3aeba0$46864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <3DAD2E5F.29989.583935@localhost> >Washington, D.C.- - In a surprise decision that exonerates dozens of >major companies, the U.S. Supreme Court today ruled that corporate >earnings statements should be protected as works of art, as they > "create something from nothing." http://www.satirewire.com/news/june02/worldcom.shtml Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 16 12:19:55 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:19:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Lenore Kandel, "Poem for Tyrants" Message-ID: Poem for Tyrants "sentient beings are numberless-- I vow to enlighten them all" --The First Vow of Buddhism it seems I must love even you easier loving the pretty things the children the morning glories easier (as compassion grows) to love the stranger easy even to realize (with compassion) the pain and terror implicit in those who treat the world around them with such brutality such hate but oh I am no Christ blessing my executioners I am no buddha no saint nor have I that incandescent strength of faith illuminated yet even so you are a sentient being breathing this air even as I am a sentient being breathing this air seeking my own enlightenment I must seek yours if I had love enough if I had faith enough perhaps I could transcend your path and alter even that forgive me, then-- I cannot love you yet --Lenore Kandel fr. *Word Alchemy* (New York: Grove Press, 1967) Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 16 12:36:07 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:36:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Memory Lane Message-ID: Wasn't it Gen. MacArthur who said, "Old poets (and little mags) never die; they just fade away"? Well, if you're anywhere near my age, paging down through this webpage http://www.longhousepoetry.com/mags.html will be like taking a walk down Memory Lane. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From hruggier at localnet.com Wed Oct 16 13:37:56 2002 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:37:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Memory Lane References: Message-ID: <3DADA3F4.BF82372A@localnet.com> Thanks for that listing - it was a trip. Sorry now I got rid of all my old magazines. Helen R Halvard Johnson wrote: > Wasn't it Gen. MacArthur who said, "Old poets (and little mags) > never die; they just fade away"? > > Well, if you're anywhere near my age, paging down through this > webpage > > http://www.longhousepoetry.com/mags.html > > will be like taking a walk down Memory Lane. > > Hal Serving the tri-state area. > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Oct 16 14:00:26 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 13:00:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Memory Lane Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F7C@mail.ripon.edu> Ah, Antaeus! Ironwood! Granite! The absolutely wonderful New American Review, which I used to buy at the corner drugstore, believe it or not. And the coolest of them all, Kayak. . . . I still have a nearly full run of Ironwoods on my shelf--just can't bear to chuck them--but somewhere along the line all my Kayaks got lost, alas. Does anyone remember the note that appeared on every issue? something about how a kayak is not a coracle, a galleon, a schooner. . . .? ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: Halvard Johnson > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:36 AM > To: New-Poetry > Subject: [New-Poetry] Memory Lane > > > Wasn't it Gen. MacArthur who said, "Old poets (and little mags) > never die; they just fade away"? > > Well, if you're anywhere near my age, paging down through this > webpage > > http://www.longhousepoetry.com/mags.html > > will be like taking a walk down Memory Lane. > > Hal From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Oct 17 11:17:53 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:17:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets Message-ID: Here's a list (from Salon) of this year's National Book Award nominees in poetry: Sharon Olds, former state poet laureate of New York, was nominated for her collection, "The Unswept Room"; 87-year-old Ruth Stone was cited for "In the Next Galaxy." Other poetry finalists were Harryette Mullen's "Sleeping With the Dictionary," Alberto Rios' "The Smallest Muscle in the Human Body" and Ellen Bryant Voigt's "Shadow of Heaven." What kind of poet is absent from this list? From joseph.lucia at villanova.edu Thu Oct 17 11:51:52 2002 From: joseph.lucia at villanova.edu (Joseph Lucia) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:51:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets References: Message-ID: <3DAEDC98.AB7C7B1@villanova.edu> Paul Lake wrote: > What kind of poet is absent from this list? My guess, as this is clearly a leading question: one from the "penile" school? From joseph.lucia at villanova.edu Thu Oct 17 11:55:06 2002 From: joseph.lucia at villanova.edu (Joseph Lucia) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:55:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets References: Message-ID: <3DAEDD5A.F9EBDD63@villanova.edu> Couldn't resist the previous sarcastic response. Perhaps a bad way to de-lurk, as I've been in lurk mode here for a long time. But let me ask this: What books by men from this year should be among the nominees? Paul Lake wrote: > Here's a list (from Salon) of this year's National Book Award nominees in > poetry: > > Sharon Olds, former state poet laureate of New York, was nominated for her > collection, "The Unswept Room"; 87-year-old Ruth Stone was cited for "In the > Next Galaxy." Other poetry finalists were Harryette Mullen's "Sleeping With > the Dictionary," Alberto Rios' "The Smallest Muscle in the Human Body" and > Ellen Bryant Voigt's "Shadow of Heaven." From joseph.lucia at villanova.edu Thu Oct 17 12:00:50 2002 From: joseph.lucia at villanova.edu (Joseph Lucia) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:00:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets References: Message-ID: <3DAEDEB2.E9B919AB@villanova.edu> Whoops. I missed the Rios on that last. There is a man. Now I really feel like a dope. Would the answer be an Anglo male? I think I've missed the point of Paul's query unless the answer would be a "formalist," heaven forfend. OK, what "formalist" books belong on the list? From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 17 12:04:06 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:04:06 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality References: <20021016114958.33975.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <014c01c275f6$f439f9c0$45864cca@JROSS2> ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient. Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that sort of stuff. I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, My point is what you said below re, "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another." They bloody well do! Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin with. And femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just such issues of pronouns. Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 17 12:05:00 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:05:00 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality References: <20021016114958.33975.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <014d01c275f6$f6a7ec80$45864cca@JROSS2> I wanted to backchannel you with a reply, but as I couldn't find your address, I'll say it publicly: you're an idiot. cordially yours, Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient. Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that sort of stuff. I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, My point is what you said below re, "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another." They bloody well do! Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin with. And femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just such issues of pronouns. Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 17 12:07:16 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 00:07:16 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality References: Message-ID: <016301c275f7$4623d300$45864cca@JROSS2> Thanks for that, Michael. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Karl Ritchie" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:59 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality > Consider old medical textbooks, where doctors were always "he" and nurses > were alsays "she." Gender bias can be clearly exposed in this way. If > "he/his" are generic pronouns that should apply to both sexes, then this > sentence would make sense: "The patient should keep track of his period > each month." > > Michael Karl > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Oct 17 12:20:15 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:20:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets In-Reply-To: <3DAEDEB2.E9B919AB@villanova.edu> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021017111155.014d1eb8@mail.ilstu.edu> You're really bothered that a white male was not nominated for a major prize? As for "formalists" being on the list, there are already several on the list. Harryette Mullen being perhaps the strictest formalist on the list. She's more of a formalist than most of the conservative white male poets who self-consciously identify as "formalist." I have to wonder if you know anything about Mullen's work? Anybody who knew even a little about her work is going to wonder how you cannot consider her a formalist. Or are you using "formalist" in the way that I've seen other white males use the term: as a euphemism for end-rhyming white male poets writing template poems? Gabe At 12:00 PM 10/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: > Whoops. I missed the Rios on that last. There is a man. Now I really > feel >like a dope. > > Would the answer be an Anglo male? I think I've missed the point of Paul's >query unless the answer would be a "formalist," heaven forfend. OK, what >"formalist" books belong on the list? > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Oct 17 12:45:52 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:45:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: John Cage, fr. "Series re Morris Graves" Message-ID: Escape. Army command: Sweep the floor! He swept it perfectly. Decision: he's not insane. You couldn't move in the room except sideways and you had to stoop. It was furnished with large tables, each with full complement of chairs. Throughout the room, heavy rocks, bound with wire, had been suspended from hooks in the ceiling. It's said it was an egg to begin with that got bigger and bigger and by friction was burst into two. The top part came to be the Heaven: the lower became Earth. Aerial relationship. Schlossberg: we are finding ways to transfer energy by means of light, like the sun does, rather than by exploding mass. Sudden sense of identification, spirit of comedy. He said that sometime after we'd left, he and Ted Ballard got to talking. Ted said, "The difference between you and them is that they are looking for solutions; you don't think there're any problems." Your second favorite? The Canadian Rockies. But not for a house. --John Cage fr. *Empty Words* (Middletown, Conn.: Wesleyan Univ. Press, 1978 Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From mandolin at mac.com Thu Oct 17 12:48:03 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 09:48:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets Message-ID: <6986409.1034873283736.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Gabriel Gudding wrote: >As for "formalists" being on the list, there are already several on the >list. Harryette Mullen being perhaps the strictest formalist on the list. >She's more of a formalist than most of the conservative white male poets >who self-consciously identify as "formalist." > >I have to wonder if you know anything about Mullen's work? Anybody who >knew even a little about her work is going to wonder how you cannot >consider her a formalist. I'm not familiar with Harryette Mullins, but if she is a formalist poet (and if that means a user of traditional English prosody), it doesn't show in what I can find online: http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?prmID=241&CFID=12660489&CFTOKEN=31088181 http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/m_r/mullen/online.htm http://www.cmp.ucr.edu/womenhouse/html_s/min6.html http://www.poets.org/poets/poets.cfm?prmID=241 There's a dsecription of a previous book here: http://english.rutgers.edu/pierce.htm which doesn't seem to indicate any interest in formalism, except for the remark that "Muse & Drudge is composed entirely in the quatrain form, it has eighty pages, with four quatrains to each page." No explanation of waht a "quatrain form" is, so I assume it just means 4 lines followed by a space before the next group of four lines. Can you say in what way she is a formalist? From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Oct 17 13:27:44 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:27:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal Mullen Message-ID: Here's a poem (available online) by Harryette Mullen that may be considered formal: The Liberation of Ms. Liberty I'm not your doormat anymore. I'm slamming shut the open door. You can keep your tired, your sick, your poor. Your huddled masses, what do I need them for? Once upon a time I carried a torch for foreign-born folks who don't eat with forks. Now when I see such useless dorks, I assertively shout, "You scum, get off my porch!" I need my own space. There's no room anymore for freeloaders who think I've got booty galore. Taking care of your needs is a thankless chore, so just keep off my domestic shores. From joseph.lucia at villanova.edu Thu Oct 17 13:38:44 2002 From: joseph.lucia at villanova.edu (Joseph Lucia) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:38:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021017111155.014d1eb8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <3DAEF5A4.834C48CF@villanova.edu> Tone never comes across in e-mail. No, I'm not bothered by the nominations. I was merely trying to sus out why Paul posted the list of nominees as if they were problematic. Indeed, Mullen is a formalist and I've in fact taught Muse & Drudge as an exemplar of contemporary approaches to "traditional" forms for its pretty remarkable re-imagining of the blues quatrain, among other things. Sorry my intent wasn't more clear in the original post. Why the need to jab and dig, as in your comments below. Is it really necessary in this medium to go adversarial so fast? Quote: "I have to wonder if you know anything about Mullen's work? Anybody who knew even a little about her work is going to wonder how you cannot consider her a formalist. Or are you using "formalist" in the way that I've seen other white males use the term: as a euphemism for end-rhyming white male poets writing template poems? Gabe" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Oct 17 13:42:43 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 12:42:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Informal Mullen Message-ID: Here are three more poems by Mullen, this time non-formal in the sense of non-traditional. How would Bob classify these? WIPE THAT SIMILE OFF YOUR APHASIA as horses as for as purple as we go as heartbeat as if as silverware as it were as onion as I can as cherries as feared as combustion as want as dog collar as expected as oboes as anyone as umbrella as catch can as penmanship as it gets as narcosis as could be as hit parade as all that as ice box as far as I know as fax machine as one can imagine as cyclones as hoped as dictionary as you like as shadow as promised as drinking fountain as well as grassfire as myself as mirror as is as never as this Mantra for a Classless Society cozy comfortable homey homelike sheltered protected private concealed covered snug content relaxed restful sedate untroubled complacent placid serene calm undisturbed wealthy affluent prosperous substantial acceptable satisfied satisfactory adequate uncomfortable uneasy restless unsuitable indigent bothersome irritating indigent bothersome irritating painful troublesome discomfiting disturbing destitute impoverished needy penniless penurious poor poverty- stricken embarrassing upsetting awkward ill-at-ease nervous self- conscious tense All She Wrote Harryette Mullen ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Forgive me, I?m no good at this. I can?t write back. I never read your letter. I can?t say I got your note. I haven?t had the strength to open the envelope. The mail stacks up by the door. Your hand?s illegible. Your postcards were defaced. Wash your wet hair? Any document you meant to send has yet to reach me. The untied parcel service never delivered. I regret to say I?m unable to reply to your unexpressed desires. I didn?t get the book you sent. By the way, my computer was stolen. Now I?m unable to process words. I suffer from aphasia. I?ve just returned from Kenya and Korea. Didn?t you get a card from me yet? What can I tell you? I forgot what I was going to say. I still can?t find a pen that works and then I broke my pencil. You know how scarce paper is these days. I admit I haven?t been recycling. I never have time to read the Times. I?m out of shopping bags to put the old news in. I didn?t get to the market. I meant to clip the coupons. I haven?t read the mail yet. I can?t get out the door to work, so I called in sick. I went to bed with writer?s cramp. If I couldn?t get back to writing, I thought I?d catch up on my reading. Then Oprah came on with a fabulous author plugging her best selling book. From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Thu Oct 17 14:00:03 2002 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (MAXINE CHERNOFF) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets In-Reply-To: <3DAEDD5A.F9EBDD63@villanova.edu> References: <3DAEDD5A.F9EBDD63@villanova.edu> Message-ID: Isn't Alberto Rios a man? MC On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Joseph Lucia wrote: > > Couldn't resist the previous sarcastic response. Perhaps a bad way to > de-lurk, as I've been in lurk mode here for a long time. But let me ask this: > > What books by men from this year should be among the nominees? > > > Paul Lake wrote: > > > Here's a list (from Salon) of this year's National Book Award nominees in > > poetry: > > > > Sharon Olds, former state poet laureate of New York, was nominated for her > > collection, "The Unswept Room"; 87-year-old Ruth Stone was cited for "In the > > Next Galaxy." Other poetry finalists were Harryette Mullen's "Sleeping With > > the Dictionary," Alberto Rios' "The Smallest Muscle in the Human Body" and > > Ellen Bryant Voigt's "Shadow of Heaven." > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Thu Oct 17 14:01:25 2002 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (MAXINE CHERNOFF) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021017111155.014d1eb8@mail.ilstu.edu> References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021017111155.014d1eb8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: Very true. It seems though, that in discussing formalists, some people use a very narrow definition, no? MC On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > You're really bothered that a white male was not nominated for a major prize? > > As for "formalists" being on the list, there are already several on the > list. Harryette Mullen being perhaps the strictest formalist on the list. > She's more of a formalist than most of the conservative white male poets > who self-consciously identify as "formalist." > > I have to wonder if you know anything about Mullen's work? Anybody who > knew even a little about her work is going to wonder how you cannot > consider her a formalist. Or are you using "formalist" in the way that I've > seen other white males use the term: as a euphemism for end-rhyming white > male poets writing template poems? > > Gabe > > At 12:00 PM 10/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: > > > Whoops. I missed the Rios on that last. There is a man. Now I really > > feel > >like a dope. > > > > Would the answer be an Anglo male? I think I've missed the point of Paul's > >query unless the answer would be a "formalist," heaven forfend. OK, what > >"formalist" books belong on the list? > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Oct 17 14:08:22 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 13:08:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets In-Reply-To: <6986409.1034873283736.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021017125839.014bf6c8@mail.ilstu.edu> > > >I'm not familiar with Harryette Mullins, but if she is a formalist poet >(and if that means a user of traditional English prosody), it doesn't show >in what I can find online: Forgive me, but it's spelled Mullen. Not Mullins. and forgive me if my tone seems impatient, but I have to ask what the hell you mean by "traditional English prosody"? Have you READ Saintsbury? And I can't ask this without seeming pedantic but uhh have you read "traditional" English work? (like, Old, Middle, and Early Modern English and modern English?) -- the prosody of which is all over the map? Have you read Mullen's work? If you have, you'd see that she's, yes, prosodic. Also, why do you associate form with (1) prosody, (2) English, and (3) tradition? This is the kind of blinkered knee-jerk hide-bound stuff that makes me not really care about the tone of an email anymore, stuff I thought we left in teh dust with Pound. Welcome to the 21st Century. Gabe, not much caring about his tone From mandolin at mac.com Thu Oct 17 14:11:51 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal Mullen Message-ID: <3108421.1034878311125.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> I did see this one, and I should have noted it in my post. Still, when considered with the other poems I found, it didn't seem to show that Mullen has any particular concern for or interest in the techniques usually associated with formalism. Having seen all of six or seven of her poems, I doubt if I qualify as knowing "even a little," but I'd still like to know why Gabriel thinks "Anybody who knew even a little about her work is going to wonder how you cannot consider her a formalist." On Thursday, Oct 17, 2002, at 01:27PM, Paul Lake wrote: >Here's a poem (available online) by Harryette Mullen that may be considered >formal: > > >The Liberation of Ms. Liberty > >I'm not your doormat anymore. >I'm slamming shut the open door. >You can keep your tired, your sick, your poor. >Your huddled masses, what do I need them for? > >Once upon a time I carried a torch >for foreign-born folks who don't eat with forks. >Now when I see such useless dorks, >I assertively shout, "You scum, get off my porch!" > >I need my own space. There's no room anymore >for freeloaders who think I've got booty galore. >Taking care of your needs is a thankless chore, >so just keep off my domestic shores. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From Cadaly at aol.com Thu Oct 17 14:19:44 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 14:19:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets Message-ID: <154.16122c55.2ae05940@aol.com> Well, I am not familiar with this particular piece of Ellen Bryant Voigt's work, but I own KYRIE, which converted one of the best nonfiction books ever written about influenza epidemics -- really fascinating, generative stuff (perhaps too esay to regurgitate?) -- into blechy sonnets.... the blues, in fact, is right re: mullen, but one of her primary formal concerns is diction, hence her title & the difficulty of negotiating the tone in some of her poems here posted -- Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Thu Oct 17 14:27:46 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets Message-ID: <1130634.1034879266949.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> You really should care about tone, you know. Screeching just makes people cover their ears. On Thursday, Oct 17, 2002, at 02:08PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: > >> >> >>I'm not familiar with Harryette Mullins, but if she is a formalist poet >>(and if that means a user of traditional English prosody), it doesn't show >>in what I can find online: > > >Forgive me, but it's spelled Mullen. Not Mullins. > >and forgive me if my tone seems impatient, but I have to ask what the hell >you mean by "traditional English prosody"? > Have you READ Saintsbury? > >And I can't ask this without seeming pedantic but uhh have you read >"traditional" English work? (like, Old, Middle, and Early Modern English >and modern English?) -- the prosody of which is all over the map? > >Have you read Mullen's work? If you have, you'd see that she's, yes, prosodic. > >Also, why do you associate form with (1) prosody, (2) English, and (3) >tradition? This is the kind of blinkered knee-jerk hide-bound stuff that >makes me not really care about the tone of an email anymore, stuff I >thought we left in teh dust with Pound. Welcome to the 21st Century. > >Gabe, not much caring about his tone > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From mandolin at mac.com Thu Oct 17 14:34:28 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 11:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Mullen's formal work Message-ID: <7470810.1034879668964.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Thanks, Joseph, for this information. "Indeed, Mullen is a formalist and I've in fact taught Muse & Drudge as an exemplar of contemporary approaches to "traditional" forms for its pretty remarkable re-imagining of the blues quatrain, among other things. " From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 17 14:48:13 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 02:48:13 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's poem criteria References: Message-ID: <006b01c2760d$c4021b40$45864cca@JROSS2> I know we've wandered from this territory, but I really feel the need to address what you wrote, Bob G. I have more than a few things I really need to write, so have decided to annoy the good anti-analytically people at New Poetry again, to avoid the more important chores I have facing me. I don't believe that we are "anti-analytical". Just because we aren't interested in engaging with you re certain topics doesn't mean we don't engage in analysis: we just don't agree with your analysis. This being dismissive out of hand is horribly patronising of you, mate. Actually, I feel this may be a constructive post, at least for me, for I'm one of those strange poets who is interested in what the constituents of effective poetry are. You're no stranger than we all are -- we engage this premise over and over, but you seem to be oblivious to same. I have given the question a shot or two over the years and may have already answered it satisfactorily (In your own mind, perhaps.) but don't remember exactly what I've said. The brief discussion about the value of Baraka's poetry got me thinking about it again. So, here's one more try at answering it. Note: I don't think the list of the elements of an effective poem I'm going to present as my answer is exhaustive. I am presenting it as much in the hopes that others can add to it as I am to organize my own thoughts. Also: I doubt that any effective poem will contain all the elements I list, or should. I do say that any genuine poem must contain some minimum number of them. For now, I would prefer not to have to argue about the relative importance of the elements, just about whether they belong on my list or not. Oh, and I make no pretence of being original or profound. I hope only to be close to complete. Why on earth would you want it to be complete? The state of language/poetry is always evolving, so how could any "list" be exhaustive/complete? My List: 1. Words or textual matter which act like words (e.g., abbreviations of words, symbols like the ampersand, etc.). Even these seemingly basic elements are in dispute as the sine qua non I believe them to be. Be that as it may, no one could contend that they are NOT an element of most poems. Most poems, perhaps, but I at least find those that don't follow this tenet to be much more interesting in terms of what basis they are operating on (one Australian poet I know using musical notation in her reading and often reads her texts backward with musical notations operating) and how well they succeed with their language project. 2. Sensual Richness, by which I mean something that awakens some strong sensual response in the person experiencing a poem--visual, auditory, olfactory, tactile, sexual, and so forth, in any combination. In order to have this, a poem's words or other content must either be able to cause a sensual response directly or refer to subject matter that will. For it to do this well, the following elements should help: Isn't this a rather antiquated notion of what poetry should do/how it should operate? While I tend to operate from the senses, not everyone does, and I find their work just as intriguing. A. Conciseness (since sensual richness should equal the sensual response of the person experiencing it over the size of poem); central to this is what I call: Not at all -- Oscar Wilde said nothing succeeds like excess, and I'm inclined to believe that in the hands of a skilful writer, everything succeeds. B. Freshness of Expression (since the more familiar one is with what's in a poem, the less likely it will be able to cause any kind of intense sensual response); How does one manage this without being a fruit? And while we're on the subject of fruit, is an apple any less a pleasing experience because we've eaten hundreds before? C. Coherence (since, in opposition to B, the more unfamiliar one is with what's in a poem, the less likely it will be able to cause any kind of intense sensual response); grammaticality, unspecializedness, aptness of words chosen and the like would be components contributing to this (but their opposites would often contribute to Freshness of Expression); All this sounds like consistency to me. Who ever said poets or writers in general must be consistent. I've seen plenty of work I really like for their effect that do none of the above but are still accessible and interesting. The experience of encountering and entering into them may not be sensual or emotive, but is engaging nonetheless. D. Unity (since a poem consisting of two or more unconnected parts will only give one a single response to each part whereas a poem unifying those parts will give one those same responses PLUS responses to each combination of parts--e.g., a poem consisting of stanza x and stanza y will give the person experiencing it only responses x and y if the two stanzas are not united; if the two stanzas are united, however, the poem will give the person response xy besides responses x and y) Ummmm -- supposing the poet wants the reader to be 'jerked about', put into a series of unfamiliar, unrelated contexts? E. Equaphorical Vigor, by which I mean the effective use of metaphors and related devices such as similes which I call "equaphors" in my poetics: good use of equaphors increases conciseness but, equally or more important, allows a person experiencing a poem to respond sensually to two or more major stimuli at once which must increase the richness of the response. Again, in your opinion. A reader doesn't necessarily need these to enter a poem, but must discomfort her/himself to enter in. AND too much of any of the above (and the judicious line is so thin) and the writer has told all there is to tell, experienced all there is to experience already, and so precludes the necessity for the reader to do so. 3. Maximal Span, or size and range (important, I feel, because the more of existence one poem covers compared to a second poem, the larger the experience one ought to be able to get from the first poem, other things being equal); contributing to this are the number and variety of subjects the poem covers, the variety of vocabulary it uses, including non-verbal vocabulary such as graphic images, mathematical symbols, and so on; Okay -- I do agree with you here. I've often seen 'small' ideas given way too much scope, and vice versa. 4. Archetypal Depth (since some subject matter is clearly of more significance to human beings than other, and the most important subject matter seems to be that which has entered human mythologies--maternal love, for instance; sexual attraction, jealousy, etc.; the quest for triumph over enemies, for peace, for Israel, for fame as a singer, etc.; Bleh!! There really is absolutely no reason to deal with any of these things AT ALL in poetry!! I prefer using contemporary cultural tropes and signs/signifiers. 5. Filler, or elements without poetic value that most poems will have simply because few poems can be nothing but poetry. Ya think? Nah -- it's not really that simple ... nothing is, but especially poetry. Summary: given that a poem must consist of words or elements that act like words, I define an effective poem as having three dimensions: sensual richness (width), maximal span (length) and archetypal depth (depth), with five secondary elements contributing consequentially to sensual richness:conciseness, freshness of expression, coherence, unity and equaphorical vigor. Summary: I say that your view of what comprises good/effective poetry is terribly narrow and conservative. You need to "get out more" ... out of the poetry square you comfortably occupy, Bob. That's it. Comments welcome. I left off "Moral Correctness," by the way, not only because I'm an anti-Puritan but because I feel "Archetypal Depth" covers it--that is, I think what most people consider immoral has little or no archetypal depth--for instance, a poem expressing the joy of killing babies for the fun of it would not click archetypally with most people. . . . --Bob G. From lshinn at sas.upenn.edu Thu Oct 17 16:11:06 2002 From: lshinn at sas.upenn.edu (Leslie Shinn) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:11:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets In-Reply-To: <154.16122c55.2ae05940@aol.com> References: <154.16122c55.2ae05940@aol.com> Message-ID: Which book did Voigt allegedly "cook" to come up with Kyrie? For my money, Kyrie is quite brilliant. >Well, I am not familiar with this particular piece of Ellen Bryant >Voigt's work, but I own KYRIE, which converted one of the best >nonfiction books ever written about influenza epidemics -- really >fascinating, generative stuff (perhaps too esay to regurgitate?) -- >into blechy sonnets.... > >the blues, in fact, is right re: mullen, but one of her primary >formal concerns is diction, hence her title & the difficulty of >negotiating the tone in some of her poems here posted -- > >Be well, >Catherine Daly >cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 17 16:11:05 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:11:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's poem criteria References: <006b01c2760d$c4021b40$45864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <00d001c27619$539c3000$594dfea9@j1c1k6> Zan suggests that my "view of what comprises good/effective poetry is terribly narrow and conservative" and that I "need to 'get out more' ... out of the poetry square (I) comfortably occupy." So start me out of it by indicating one thing an effective poem MIGHT have that is not on my list. I might add, Zan, that I don't feel you understood my list very well. --Bob G. From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Oct 17 16:15:30 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 15:15:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021017111155.014d1eb8@mail.ilstu.edu> <5.1.1.6.0.20021017111155.014d1eb8@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021017151004.014bca68@mail.ilstu.edu> At 11:01 AM 10/17/2002 -0700, MAXINE CHERNOFF wrote: >Very true. It seems though, that in discussing formalists, some people >use a very narrow definition, no? MC Very very narrow, Maxine. It's like there are three kinds of architecture, too: Corinthian, Ionian, and Doric. From Cadaly at aol.com Thu Oct 17 17:11:54 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:11:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets Message-ID: <6e.24ab88f2.2ae0819a@aol.com> Alfred Cosby, The Forgotten Pandemic: The Influenza of 1918 whichis where the epigraph's from I'm fairly sure that a related book, Influenza 1918, was written from this source as well, but I would really have to make sure by going to the library -- the one I'm thinking about has all these fabulous letters and diaries and news clippings Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Thu Oct 17 18:04:43 2002 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 15:04:43 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality References: <20021016114958.33975.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> <014d01c275f6$f6a7ec80$45864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <013501c27629$34abb480$50acefd8@0021936706> Sorry Zan, If I understand what you're saying (and I very well may not), count me as an idiot too. What exactly is it that you want to do? Remove all gendered pronouns from the language? That seems a step back, unless you're of the ilk that believes that there is NO difference between the sexes or no good reasons to differentiate. I can think of quite a few, though. And I consider myself a feminist. Can you explain a bit further? Tony *** "The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." Emily Dickinson *** "I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth century." C. Montgomery Burns *** "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be better left alone." Kenneth Koch *** ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker" ----- Original Message ----- From: ganesha To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality I wanted to backchannel you with a reply, but as I couldn't find your address, I'll say it publicly: you're an idiot. cordially yours, Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient. Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that sort of stuff. I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, My point is what you said below re, "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another." They bloody well do! Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin with. And femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just such issues of pronouns. Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lshinn at sas.upenn.edu Thu Oct 17 18:04:52 2002 From: lshinn at sas.upenn.edu (Leslie Shinn) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:04:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets In-Reply-To: <6e.24ab88f2.2ae0819a@aol.com> Message-ID: But what, besides the epigraph, warrants your implication that Voigt "converted" that book into a book of her own? >Alfred Cosby, The Forgotten Pandemic: The Influenza of 1918 > > whichis where the epigraph's from > > I'm fairly sure that a related book, Influenza 1918, was written from >this source as well, but I would really have to make sure by going to the >library -- the one I'm thinking about has all these fabulous letters and >diaries and news clippings > > Be well, > Catherine Daly > cadaly at pacbell.net From Cadaly at aol.com Thu Oct 17 19:30:10 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:30:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets Message-ID: I've read both -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Oct 17 20:47:37 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:47:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets Message-ID: In a message dated 10/17/02 1:40:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, joseph.lucia at villanova.edu writes: > ndeed, Mullen is a formalist and I've in fact taught Muse & Drudge > as an exemplar of contemporary approaches to "traditional" forms for its > pretty > remarkable re-imagining of the blues quatrain, among other things. Joe, I've read that book several times...always trying to like it, because it's often mentioned as "important" and "brilliant" & whatnot. But I found the book to be too full of groaner puns and I-see-it-coming-from-a-mile-away wordplay. Anyway, I came away from the book more dismayed than amazed. Finnegan. From JforJames at aol.com Thu Oct 17 21:09:38 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 21:09:38 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets Message-ID: <171.15b8f86e.2ae0b952@aol.com> In a message dated 10/17/02 2:09:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > > and forgive me if my tone seems impatient, but I have to ask what the hell > you mean by "traditional English prosody"? > Have you READ Saintsbury? > > And I can't ask this without seeming pedantic but uhh have you read > "traditional" English work? (like, Old, Middle, and Early Modern English > and modern English?) -- the prosody of which is all over the map? > > Have you read Mullen's work? If you have, you'd see that she's, yes, > prosodic. > > Also, why do you associate form with (1) prosody, (2) English, and (3) > tradition? This is the kind of blinkered knee-jerk hide-bound stuff that > makes me not really care about the tone of an email anymore, stuff I > thought we left in teh dust with Pound. Welcome to the 21st Century. > Gabe, but of course. However, "formalism" is a useful rubric...commonly, in the course of conversation, it applies to those poems one could find listed under sub-headings like Sonnet, Pantoum, etc., in a handbook by Turco or Miller Williams. "Formal" means something different from employing a form. To carry your argument to the extreme, a completely disheveled grouping of words is only another kind of form. "Formalism," as opposed to the history of all possible verse structures ever employed or that could be generated by a computer using a randomizing program, has become a narrower term. As spelling, too, has become more standardized since "Olde" English. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Thu Oct 17 21:43:15 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 21:43:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Informal Mullen Message-ID: <81.2327d8e1.2ae0c133@aol.com> Both of these are quite good. The fist employs anaphora but with a Steinian attitude. It's not entirely novel however; other poets have subverted "the metaphorical impulse" in poetry in a similar fashion...fooling with poetry's penchant for the simile. (A god-awful pun for a title...perhaps this is just a pet peeve of mine.) The second recontextualizes the words nicely. The soft segues from the valued to the neutral to the devalued are deftly handled. Again, not exactly a groundbreaking concept for a poem. (A common ploy in conceptual art.) This poem, in fact, is closely related to that poem posted recently that exploited the index of book about Glenn Gould (was that Hal's poem?); the crafted found poem, so to speak. Thanks for posting these. Finnegan In a message dated 10/17/02 1:49:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > > WIPE THAT SIMILE OFF YOUR APHASIA > > > as horses as for > as purple as we go > as heartbeat as if > as silverware as it were > as onion as I can > as cherries as feared > as combustion as want > as dog collar as expected > as oboes as anyone > as umbrella as catch can > as penmanship as it gets > as narcosis as could be > as hit parade as all that > as ice box as far as I know > as fax machine as one can imagine > as cyclones as hoped > as dictionary as you like > as shadow as promised > as drinking fountain as well > as grassfire as myself > as mirror as is > as never as this > > > > Mantra for a Classless Society > > cozy comfortable homey homelike > > sheltered protected private concealed > > covered snug content relaxed restful > > sedate untroubled complacent placid > > serene calm undisturbed wealthy > > affluent prosperous substantial > > acceptable satisfied satisfactory > > adequate uncomfortable uneasy > > restless unsuitable indigent > > bothersome irritating indigent > > bothersome irritating painful > > > troublesome discomfiting disturbing > > destitute impoverished needy > > penniless penurious poor poverty- > > stricken embarrassing upsetting > > awkward ill-at-ease nervous self- > > conscious tense > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 17 21:18:40 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 21:18:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets References: <5.1.1.6.0.20021017111155.014d1eb8@mail.ilstu.edu><5.1.1.6.0.20021017111155.014d1eb8@mail.ilstu.edu> <5.1.1.6.0.20021017151004.014bca68@mail.ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <01d101c2764c$f7253cc0$594dfea9@j1c1k6> > At 11:01 AM 10/17/2002 -0700, MAXINE CHERNOFF wrote: > >Very true. It seems though, that in discussing formalists, some people > >use a very narrow definition, no? MC Yeah, almost as though they wanted to distinguish formal poetry from something. > Very very narrow, Maxine. It's like there are three kinds of architecture, > too: Corinthian, Ionian, and Doric. If that's so, it would indicate the definitions were too broad. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 17 22:19:25 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:19:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob's poem criteria References: <006b01c2760d$c4021b40$45864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <01d201c2764c$f894f960$594dfea9@j1c1k6> Me: > I have more than a few things I really need to write, so have decided to > annoy the good anti-analyticality people at New Poetry again, to avoid the > more important chores I have facing me. You: > I don't believe that we are "anti-analytical". Me: I spoke of the anti-analyticality people at New Poetry, not all the people at New Poetry. You: >Just because we aren't > interested in engaging with you re certain topics doesn't mean we don't > engage in analysis: we just don't agree with your analysis. Me: Consider the possibility that I regard certain people at New Poetry as anti-analyticality because they express little interest in analyzing poems or poetry, and because a few of them joke about it or explicitly state their disdain for it rather than because they "aren't interested in engaging me re certain topics." You, being hyper-sensitive: >This being > dismissive out of hand is horribly patronising of you, mate. Me: Tch tch. Me: > Actually, I feel this may be a constructive post, at least for me, for I'm > one of those strange poets who is interested in what the constituents of > effective poetry are. You: > You're no stranger than we all are -- we engage this premise over and over, > but you seem to be oblivious to same. Me: No, you don't, not in any systematic way. You tend just to discuss specific poems, saying what you like about them, but little more. Me: > I have given the question a shot or two over the years and may have already > answered it satisfactorily (In your own mind, perhaps.) but don't remember > exactly what I've said. The brief discussion about the value of Baraka's > poetry got me thinking about it again. So, here's one more try at answering > it. > > Note: I don't think the list of the elements of an effective poem I'm going > to present as my answer is exhaustive. I am presenting it as much in the > hopes that others can add to it as I am to organize my own thoughts. Also: > I doubt that any effective poem will contain all the elements I list, or > should. I do say that any genuine poem must contain some minimum number of > them. For now, I would prefer not to have to argue about the relative > importance of the elements, just about whether they belong on my list or > not. Oh, and I make no pretence of being original or profound. I hope only > to be close to complete. You: > Why on earth would you want it to be complete? The state of language/poetry > is always evolving, so how could any "list" be exhaustive/complete? Me: A list could be complete as of its date of completion since the elements of effective poems are objectively in them, and thus findable and describable. > My List: > > 1. Words or textual matter which act like words (e.g., abbreviations of > words, symbols like the ampersand, etc.). Even these seemingly basic > elements are in dispute as the sine qua non I believe them to be. Be that > as it may, no one could contend that they are NOT an element of most poems. You: > Most poems, perhaps, but I at least find those that don't follow this tenet > to be much more interesting in terms of what basis they are operating on > (one Australian poet I know using musical notation in her reading and often > reads her texts backward with musical notations operating) and how well they > succeed with their language project. Me: Are you saying she does not use words or near-words? If so, I say she's doing something other than poetry. Me: > 2. Sensual Richness, by which I mean something that awakens some strong > sensual response in the person experiencing a poem--visual, auditory, > olfactory, tactile, sexual, and so forth, in any combination. In order to > have this, a poem's words or other content must either be able to cause a > sensual response directly or refer to subject matter that will. For it to > do this well, the following elements should help: You: > Isn't this a rather antiquated notion of what poetry should do/how it should > operate? Me: No. But try to keep in mind what I have said. Above, for instance, I said, "Also: I doubt that any effective poem will contain all the elements I list, or should. I do say that any genuine poem must contain some minimum number of them." You: While I tend to operate from the senses, not everyone does, and I find their work just as intriguing. Me: > A. Conciseness (since sensual richness should equal the sensual response of > the person experiencing it over the size of poem); You: > Not at all -- Oscar Wilde said nothing succeeds like excess, and I'm > inclined to believe that in the hands of a skilful writer, everything > succeeds. Me: I'm trying to say what would be in the hands of a skillful poet. Other things being equal, the more concise a poem is the better. But someone might sacrifice conciseness for freshness or one other element of an effective poem, since it's near-impossible to have everything. And the conciseness I'm speaking of is not simple--for instance, a wordy poem might be as concise as can be if it's trying to capture some kind of emotional slowness. This is hard to explain. Here's a simple example: (a) He was in the woods a long time. (b) He wnn . . anwnd durr-- rrndered&#d,deredna;wandreawdunded thwoooooooooooooodddds. Or more. (a) is simplistically concise; (b) is much longer but in the final analysis is more concise because the ratio of what it says to the amount of text it uses to say it is greater than the same ratio in (a). Me: > central to this is what I call: > B. Freshness of Expression (since the more familiar one is with what's in a > poem, the less likely it will be able to cause any kind of intense sensual > response); You: How does one manage this without being a fruit? Me: Ha ha. You: > And while we're > on the subject of fruit, is an apple any less a pleasing experience because > we've eaten hundreds before? Me: Poetry is not food, for one thing. Another thing is that an apple is the equivalent of only a few words, so its context can make it pleasing. A third thing is, yes, if you've eaten a LOT of apples, you'll start wanting something other than apples. Try the reverse question: would you be happy if you were never allowed to read any poems but your favorite one hundred? Me: > C. Coherence (since, in opposition to B, the more unfamiliar one is with > what's in a poem, the less likely it will be able to cause any kind of > intense sensual response); grammaticality, unspecializedness, aptness of > words chosen and the like would be components contributing to this (but > their opposites would often contribute to Freshness of Expression); You: > All this sounds like consistency to me. Who ever said poets or writers in > general must be consistent. I've seen plenty of work I really like for > their effect that do none of the above but are still accessible and > interesting. The experience of encountering and entering into them may not > be sensual or emotive, but is engaging nonetheless. Me: Try to remember what I've said. Aside from that, coherence is understandability; consistency is something that can help make something coherent but isn't necessary. Consistency is necessary for unity, though, something else I deem an element of effective poems: > D. Unity (since a poem consisting of two or more unconnected parts will only > give one a single response to each part whereas a poem unifying those parts > will give one those same responses PLUS responses to each combination of > parts--e.g., a poem consisting of stanza x and stanza y will give the person > experiencing it only responses x and y if the two stanzas are not united; if > the two stanzas are united, however, the poem will give the person response > xy besides responses x and y) You: > Ummmm -- supposing the poet wants the reader to be 'jerked about', put into > a series of unfamiliar, unrelated contexts? Me: If they are really unrelated, the poem would lose to the degree that disunity resulted. But successful poems that seem disunity always, I believe, have a higher unity--such as the experience of schizophrenia, say--or of drunkenness. I believe the best poems have other means of unifying, too--perhaps rhyme or rhythm, perhaps type of imagery, etc. Me: > E. Equaphorical Vigor, by which I mean the effective use of metaphors and > related devices such as similes which I call "equaphors" in my poetics: good > use of equaphors increases conciseness but, equally or more important, > allows a person experiencing a poem to respond sensually to two or more > major stimuli at once which must increase the richness of the response. You: > Again, in your opinion. Me: If you'll go back, you'll see I prefaced my list with the words, "My List," rather than "The List." You" >A reader doesn't necessarily need these to enter a > poem, but must discomfort her/himself to enter in. Me: Watch out! Here you inadvertantly contributed something constructive: you reminded me of another element of an effective poem: something that signals "poetry," thus causing aesthetic distancing. Giving a person experiencing it the feeling of being somewhere in addition to quotidian reality is one of the virtues of good art, Or, readers discomfort themselves to enter, as you put it, or would have put it if not for your silliness about gender. You: >AND too much of any of > the above (and the judicious line is so thin) and the writer has told all > there is to tell, experienced all there is to experience already, and so > precludes the necessity for the reader to do so. Me: I don't follow the relevance of this. The more equaphorical vigor, the more places a poem's experiencer can go, and there are a near-infintiy of places to go. Me: > 3. Maximal Span, or size and range (important, I feel, because the more of > existence one poem covers compared to a second poem, the larger the > experience one ought to be able to get from the first poem, other things > being equal); contributing to this are the number and variety of subjects > the poem covers, the variety of vocabulary it uses, including non-verbal > vocabulary such as graphic images, mathematical symbols, and so on; Me: > Okay -- I do agree with you here. I've often seen 'small' ideas given way > too much scope, and vice versa. You: I'll leave it in, anyway. > 4. Archetypal Depth (since some subject matter is clearly of more > significance to human beings than other, and the most important subject > matter seems to be that which has entered human mythologies--maternal love, > for instance; sexual attraction, jealousy, etc.; the quest for triumph over > enemies, for peace, for Israel, for fame as a singer, etc.; You: > Bleh!! There really is absolutely no reason to deal with any of these > things AT ALL in poetry!! I prefer using contemporary cultural tropes and > signs/signifiers. Me: Fine. As I've said twice now, you needn't include all the elements in your poetry. But I suspect that those of your poems you think your best touch on the archetypal. Ah, I now suspect you think the archetypal has to explicity mention Zeus or something. Surely, you are not really that dense. Me: > 5. Filler, or elements without poetic value that most poems will have simply > because few poems can be nothing but poetry. You: > Ya think? Nah -- it's not really that simple ... nothing is, but especially poetry. Me: All I can say is that in my experience, even the best haiku and smaller poems are rarely all poetry. Me: > Summary: given that a poem must consist of words or elements that act like > words, I define an effective poem as having three dimensions: sensual > richness (width), maximal span (length) and archetypal depth (depth), with > five secondary elements contributing consequentially to sensual > richness:conciseness, freshness of expression, coherence, unity and > equaphorical vigor. Me: I forgot to note, again, that some elements or even a dimension or two may be missing. You: > Summary: I say that your view of what comprises good/effective poetry is > terribly narrow and conservative. You need to "get out more" ... out of the > poetry square you comfortably occupy, Bob. Me: To repeat: tell me what I have to add to get "out of the poetry square (I) comfortably occupy," Zan. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 17 22:46:38 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:46:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Informal Mullen References: Message-ID: <002b01c27650$95a25420$594dfea9@j1c1k6> > Here are three more poems by Mullen, this time non-formal in the sense of > non-traditional. How would Bob classify these? > WIPE THAT SIMILE OFF YOUR APHASIA Burstnorm (breaks significantly with the conventions of verbal expression) /xenolinguistic (breaks grammar or spelling norms)/sprungrammar (breaks grammar norms) /variant-syntax list poem Yes, Stein--and Cummings, too. Mildly interesting and better than the poetry composed by most winners of these kinds of prizes > Mantra for a Classless Society Plaintext nearprose list poem For me, a yawn. --Bob G. From robinwwc at mindspring.com Thu Oct 17 23:07:07 2002 From: robinwwc at mindspring.com (Robin Kemp) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 23:07:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Influenza References: <200210180219.g9I2J4619582@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000201c27655$a315ae40$0400a8c0@bellsouth.net> Catherine, Ellen Bryant Voigt had a book about the influenza epidemic. My web is down at the moment, so I can't look up the title. Robin Kemp ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 10:19 PM Subject: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1042 - 10 msgs > Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: National book award poets (Gabriel Gudding) > 2. Re: National book award poets (Cadaly at aol.com) > 3. Re: Pronouns and Sexuality (Anthony Robinson) > 4. Re: National book award poets (Leslie Shinn) > 5. Re: National book award poets (Cadaly at aol.com) > 6. Re: National book award poets (JforJames at aol.com) > 7. Re: National book award poets (JforJames at aol.com) > 8. Re: Informal Mullen (JforJames at aol.com) > 9. Re: National book award poets (Bob Grumman) > 10. Re: Bob's poem criteria (Bob Grumman) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 15:15:30 -0500 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > From: Gabriel Gudding > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] National book award poets > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > At 11:01 AM 10/17/2002 -0700, MAXINE CHERNOFF wrote: > >Very true. It seems though, that in discussing formalists, some people > >use a very narrow definition, no? MC > > > Very very narrow, Maxine. It's like there are three kinds of architecture, > too: Corinthian, Ionian, and Doric. > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: Cadaly at aol.com > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 17:11:54 EDT > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] National book award poets > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > --part1_6e.24ab88f2.2ae0819a_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Alfred Cosby, The Forgotten Pandemic: The Influenza of 1918 > > whichis where the epigraph's from > > I'm fairly sure that a related book, Influenza 1918, was written from this > source as well, but I would really have to make sure by going to the library > -- the one I'm thinking about has all these fabulous letters and diaries and > news clippings > > Be well, > Catherine Daly > cadaly at pacbell.net > > --part1_6e.24ab88f2.2ae0819a_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Alfred Cosby, The Forgotten Pandemic: The Influenza of 1918
>
> whichis where the epigraph's from
>
> I'm fairly sure that a related book, Influenza 1918, was written from this source as well, but I would really have to make sure by going to the library -- the one I'm thinking about has all these fabulous letters and diaries and news clippings
>
> Be well,
> Catherine Daly
> cadaly at pacbell.net > > --part1_6e.24ab88f2.2ae0819a_boundary-- > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: "Anthony Robinson" > To: > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 15:04:43 -0700 > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0132_01C275EE.8690D4A0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Sorry Zan, > > If I understand what you're saying (and I very well may not), count me = > as an idiot too. What exactly is it that you want to do? Remove all = > gendered pronouns from the language? That seems a step back, unless = > you're of the ilk that believes that there is NO difference between the = > sexes or no good reasons to differentiate. I can think of quite a few, = > though. And I consider myself a feminist. Can you explain a bit = > further? > > Tony > *** > "The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." > Emily Dickinson > > *** > "I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the = > Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the = > sixteenth century." > C. Montgomery Burns > > *** > "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in = > poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but = > which would be better left alone." > Kenneth Koch > > *** > ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its = > in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. > Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"=20 > > > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: ganesha=20 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:05 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality > > > I wanted to backchannel you with a reply, but as I couldn't find your = > address, I'll say it publicly: you're an idiot. > > cordially yours, > > Zan > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Jeff Newberry=20 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:49 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality > > > Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm = > not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient.=20 > > Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that = > sort of stuff.=20 > > I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a = > choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use.=20 > > Cheers,=20 > > Jeff Newberry=20 > > ganesha wrote:=20 > > Jeff, > > My point is what you said below re,=20 > "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop = > all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be = > offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have = > nothing to do with one another."=20 > > They bloody well do! > > Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry = > for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin = > with. > > And=20 > femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just = > such issues of pronouns. =20 > > Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting)=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Jeff Newberry=20 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality > > > Zan,=20 > > Of course it is. Point?=20 > > Jeff Newberry=20 > > ganesha wrote:=20 > > Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just = > how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male = > students who just don't see what I mean. . > > Zan > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= > --- > Do you Yahoo!? > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more > faith.yahoo.com > > ------=_NextPart_000_0132_01C275EE.8690D4A0 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > >
Sorry Zan,
face=3DArial size=3D2> >

If I understand what you're saying (and I very well may not), = > count me=20 > as an idiot too.  What exactly is it that you want to do?  = > Remove all=20 > gendered pronouns from the language?  That seems a step back, = > unless you're=20 > of the ilk that believes that there is NO difference between the sexes = > or no=20 > good reasons to differentiate.  I can think of quite a few, = > though. =20 > And I consider myself a feminist.  Can you explain a bit = > further?
>
 
>
Tony
>
***
"The incredible never surprises us because it is the=20 > incredible."
Emily Dickinson
>
 
>
***
"I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets = > of the=20 > Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the = > sixteenth=20 > century."
C. Montgomery Burns
>
 
>
***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous = > gap in=20 > poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but = > which would=20 > be better left alone."
Kenneth Koch
>
 
>
***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us = > but yet=20 > its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, = > "Riddley=20 > Walker"
>
 
>
 
>
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = > BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> >
----- Original Message -----
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = > black">From:=20 > href=3D"mailto:ganesha at dezzanet.net.au">ganesha > >
Sent: Thursday, October 17, = > 2002 9:05=20 > AM
>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] = > Pronouns and=20 > Sexuality
>

>
I wanted to backchannel you with a reply, but as I = > couldn't=20 > find your address, I'll say it publicly: you're an idiot.
>
 
>
cordially yours,
>
 
>
Zan
> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = > BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> >
----- Original Message -----
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = > black">From:=20 > href=3D"mailto:jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com">Jeff=20 > Newberry > >
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, = > 2002 7:49=20 > PM
>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] = > Pronouns and=20 > Sexuality
>

>

Still not seeing a point.  Yes, language is sexist.  So = > > what?  I'm not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns = > aren't=20 > sentient.=20 >

Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for = > that sort=20 > of stuff.=20 >

I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes = > a=20 > choice, it's up to her what pronouns she=20 > wants to use.=20 >

Cheers,=20 >

Jeff Newberry=20 >

 ganesha <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au> = > wrote:=20 > style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff = > 2px solid"> > > > >

Jeff,
>
 
>
My point is what you said = > below re,=20 >
>

"My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to = > drop all=20 > pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be = > offended by=20 > my gender bias.  Pronouns and sexual discrimination = > have=20 > nothing to do with one another."

>
They bloody well do!
>
 
>
Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader?  One writes = > poetry=20 > for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants = > one to=20 > begin with.
>
 
>
And 
>
femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about = > just=20 > such issues of pronouns.  
>
 
>
Zan (restraining herself from being childish and=20 > insulting) 
> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = > BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> >
----- Original Message ----- = >
> style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = > black">From:=20 > href=3D"mailto:jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com">Jeff Newberry >
To: title=3Dnew-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu=20 > = > href=3D"mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu">new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu= > =20 >
>
Sent: Monday, October 14, = > 2002=20 > 11:06 PM
>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] = > Pronouns=20 > and Sexuality
>
size=3D2> size=3D2> size=3D2>
>

Zan,=20 >

Of course it is.  Point?=20 >

Jeff Newberry=20 >

 ganesha < = > href=3D"mailto:ganesha at dezzanet.net.au">ganesha at dezzanet.net.au> I>=20 > wrote:=20 > style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = > #1010ff 2px solid"> > >

Jeff, if you examine English=20 > closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it = > is. =20 > I've often had this discussion with male students who just = > don't see=20 > what I mean.  .
>
 
>
Zan
> style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = > 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> = > size=3D2> 
> >


>

> Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill = > -=20 > Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more
= > href=3D"http://faith.yahoo.com">faith.yahoo.com OTE> > > ------=_NextPart_000_0132_01C275EE.8690D4A0-- > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 18:04:52 -0400 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > From: Leslie Shinn > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] National book award poets > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > But what, besides the epigraph, warrants your implication that Voigt > "converted" that book into a book of her own? > > >Alfred Cosby, The Forgotten Pandemic: The Influenza of 1918 > > > > whichis where the epigraph's from > > > > I'm fairly sure that a related book, Influenza 1918, was written from > >this source as well, but I would really have to make sure by going to the > >library -- the one I'm thinking about has all these fabulous letters and > >diaries and news clippings > > > > Be well, > > Catherine Daly > > cadaly at pacbell.net > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 5 > From: Cadaly at aol.com > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 19:30:10 EDT > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] National book award poets > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > --part1_cc.13af0b18.2ae0a202_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I've read both > > --part1_cc.13af0b18.2ae0a202_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I've read both > > --part1_cc.13af0b18.2ae0a202_boundary-- > > --__--__-- > > Message: 6 > From: JforJames at aol.com > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:47:37 EDT > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] National book award poets > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > In a message dated 10/17/02 1:40:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > joseph.lucia at villanova.edu writes: > > > ndeed, Mullen is a formalist and I've in fact taught Muse & Drudge > > as an exemplar of contemporary approaches to "traditional" forms for its > > pretty > > remarkable re-imagining of the blues quatrain, among other things. > Joe, I've read that book several times...always trying to like it, because > it's often mentioned as "important" and "brilliant" & whatnot. But I found > the book to be too full of groaner puns and I-see-it-coming-from-a-mile-away > wordplay. Anyway, I came away from the book more dismayed than amazed. > Finnegan. > > --__--__-- > > Message: 7 > From: JforJames at aol.com > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 21:09:38 EDT > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] National book award poets > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > In a message dated 10/17/02 2:09:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > gmguddi at ilstu.edu writes: > > > > > and forgive me if my tone seems impatient, but I have to ask what the hell > > you mean by "traditional English prosody"? > > Have you READ Saintsbury? > > > > And I can't ask this without seeming pedantic but uhh have you read > > "traditional" English work? (like, Old, Middle, and Early Modern English > > and modern English?) -- the prosody of which is all over the map? > > > > Have you read Mullen's work? If you have, you'd see that she's, yes, > > prosodic. > > > > Also, why do you associate form with (1) prosody, (2) English, and (3) > > tradition? This is the kind of blinkered knee-jerk hide-bound stuff that > > makes me not really care about the tone of an email anymore, stuff I > > thought we left in teh dust with Pound. Welcome to the 21st Century. > > > Gabe, > but of course. However, "formalism" is a useful rubric...commonly, > in the course of conversation, it applies to those poems one > could find listed under sub-headings like Sonnet, Pantoum, etc., > in a handbook by Turco or Miller Williams. "Formal" means > something different from employing a form. To carry your argument > to the extreme, a completely disheveled grouping of words is only > another kind of form. > "Formalism," as opposed to the history of all possible > verse structures ever employed or that could be generated by > a computer using a randomizing program, has become a > narrower term. As spelling, too, has become more standardized > since "Olde" English. > Finnegan > > --__--__-- > > Message: 8 > From: JforJames at aol.com > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 21:43:15 EDT > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Informal Mullen > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Both of these are quite good. The fist employs anaphora > but with a Steinian attitude. It's not entirely novel however; > other poets have subverted "the metaphorical impulse" in > poetry in a similar fashion...fooling with poetry's penchant > for the simile. (A god-awful pun for a title...perhaps this is > just a pet peeve of mine.) > The second recontextualizes the words nicely. The soft segues > from the valued to the neutral to the devalued are deftly handled. > Again, not exactly a groundbreaking concept for a poem. > (A common ploy in conceptual art.) This poem, in fact, > is closely related to that poem posted recently that exploited > the index of book about Glenn Gould (was that Hal's poem?); > the crafted found poem, so to speak. > Thanks for posting these. > Finnegan > > In a message dated 10/17/02 1:49:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > > > > > WIPE THAT SIMILE OFF YOUR APHASIA > > > > > > as horses as for > > as purple as we go > > as heartbeat as if > > as silverware as it were > > as onion as I can > > as cherries as feared > > as combustion as want > > as dog collar as expected > > as oboes as anyone > > as umbrella as catch can > > as penmanship as it gets > > as narcosis as could be > > as hit parade as all that > > as ice box as far as I know > > as fax machine as one can imagine > > as cyclones as hoped > > as dictionary as you like > > as shadow as promised > > as drinking fountain as well > > as grassfire as myself > > as mirror as is > > as never as this > > > > > > > > Mantra for a Classless Society > > > > cozy comfortable homey homelike > > > > sheltered protected private concealed > > > > covered snug content relaxed restful > > > > sedate untroubled complacent placid > > > > serene calm undisturbed wealthy > > > > affluent prosperous substantial > > > > acceptable satisfied satisfactory > > > > adequate uncomfortable uneasy > > > > restless unsuitable indigent > > > > bothersome irritating indigent > > > > bothersome irritating painful > > > > > > troublesome discomfiting disturbing > > > > destitute impoverished needy > > > > penniless penurious poor poverty- > > > > stricken embarrassing upsetting > > > > awkward ill-at-ease nervous self- > > > > conscious tense > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 9 > From: "Bob Grumman" > To: > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] National book award poets > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 21:18:40 -0400 > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > At 11:01 AM 10/17/2002 -0700, MAXINE CHERNOFF wrote: > > >Very true. It seems though, that in discussing formalists, some people > > >use a very narrow definition, no? MC > > Yeah, almost as though they wanted to distinguish formal poetry from > something. > > > Very very narrow, Maxine. It's like there are three kinds of architecture, > > too: Corinthian, Ionian, and Doric. > > If that's so, it would indicate the definitions were too broad. > > --Bob G. > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 10 > From: "Bob Grumman" > To: > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bob's poem criteria > Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 22:19:25 -0400 > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Me: > > > I have more than a few things I really need to write, so have decided to > > annoy the good anti-analyticality people at New Poetry again, to avoid the > > more important chores I have facing me. > > You: > > > I don't believe that we are "anti-analytical". > > Me: I spoke of the anti-analyticality people at New Poetry, not all the > people at New Poetry. > > You: > > >Just because we aren't > > interested in engaging with you re certain topics doesn't mean we don't > > engage in analysis: we just don't agree with your analysis. > > Me: > > Consider the possibility that I regard certain people at New Poetry as > anti-analyticality because they express little interest in analyzing poems > or poetry, and because a few of them joke about it or explicitly state their > disdain for it rather than because they "aren't interested in engaging me re > certain topics." > > You, being hyper-sensitive: > > >This being > > dismissive out of hand is horribly patronising of you, mate. > > Me: > > Tch tch. > > Me: > > > Actually, I feel this may be a constructive post, at least for me, for I'm > > one of those strange poets who is interested in what the constituents of > > effective poetry are. > > You: > > > You're no stranger than we all are -- we engage this premise over and > over, > > but you seem to be oblivious to same. > > Me: > > No, you don't, not in any systematic way. You tend just to discuss specific > poems, saying what you like about them, but little more. > > Me: > > > I have given the question a shot or two over the years and may have > already > > answered it satisfactorily (In your own mind, perhaps.) but don't remember > > exactly what I've said. The brief discussion about the value of Baraka's > > poetry got me thinking about it again. So, here's one more try at > answering > > it. > > > > Note: I don't think the list of the elements of an effective poem I'm > going > > to present as my answer is exhaustive. I am presenting it as much in the > > hopes that others can add to it as I am to organize my own thoughts. > Also: > > I doubt that any effective poem will contain all the elements I list, or > > should. I do say that any genuine poem must contain some minimum number > of > > them. For now, I would prefer not to have to argue about the relative > > importance of the elements, just about whether they belong on my list or > > not. Oh, and I make no pretence of being original or profound. I hope > only > > to be close to complete. > > You: > > > Why on earth would you want it to be complete? The state of > language/poetry > > is always evolving, so how could any "list" be exhaustive/complete? > > Me: > > A list could be complete as of its date of completion since the elements of > effective poems are objectively in them, and thus findable and describable. > > > My List: > > > > 1. Words or textual matter which act like words (e.g., abbreviations of > > words, symbols like the ampersand, etc.). Even these seemingly basic > > elements are in dispute as the sine qua non I believe them to be. Be that > > as it may, no one could contend that they are NOT an element of most > poems. > > You: > > > Most poems, perhaps, but I at least find those that don't follow this > tenet > > to be much more interesting in terms of what basis they are operating on > > (one Australian poet I know using musical notation in her reading and > often > > reads her texts backward with musical notations operating) and how well > they > > succeed with their language project. > > Me: > > Are you saying she does not use words or near-words? If so, I say she's > doing something other than poetry. > > Me: > > > 2. Sensual Richness, by which I mean something that awakens some strong > > sensual response in the person experiencing a poem--visual, auditory, > > olfactory, tactile, sexual, and so forth, in any combination. In order to > > have this, a poem's words or other content must either be able to cause a > > sensual response directly or refer to subject matter that will. For it to > > do this well, the following elements should help: > > You: > > > Isn't this a rather antiquated notion of what poetry should do/how it > should > > operate? > > Me: > > No. But try to keep in mind what I have said. Above, for instance, I said, > "Also: I doubt that any effective poem will contain all the elements I list, > or > should. I do say that any genuine poem must contain some minimum number of > them." > > You: > > While I tend to operate from the senses, not everyone does, and I find their > work just as intriguing. > > Me: > > > A. Conciseness (since sensual richness should equal the sensual response > of > > the person experiencing it over the size of poem); > > You: > > > Not at all -- Oscar Wilde said nothing succeeds like excess, and I'm > > inclined to believe that in the hands of a skilful writer, everything > > succeeds. > > Me: > > I'm trying to say what would be in the hands of a skillful poet. Other > things being equal, the more concise a poem is the better. But someone > might sacrifice conciseness for freshness or one other element of an > effective poem, since it's near-impossible to have everything. And the > conciseness I'm speaking of is not simple--for instance, a wordy poem might > be as concise as can be if it's trying to capture some kind of emotional > slowness. This is hard to explain. Here's a simple example: (a) He was in > the woods a long time. (b) He wnn . . anwnd durr-- > rrndered&#d,deredna;wandreawdunded thwoooooooooooooodddds. Or more. (a) is > simplistically concise; (b) is much longer but in the final analysis is more > concise because the ratio of what it says to the amount of text it uses to > say it is greater than the same ratio in (a). > > Me: > > > central to this is what I call: > > > B. Freshness of Expression (since the more familiar one is with what's in > a > > poem, the less likely it will be able to cause any kind of intense sensual > > response); > > You: > > How does one manage this without being a fruit? > > Me: > > Ha ha. > > You: > > > And while we're > > on the subject of fruit, is an apple any less a pleasing experience > because > > we've eaten hundreds before? > > Me: > > Poetry is not food, for one thing. Another thing is that an apple is the > equivalent of only a few words, so its context can make it pleasing. A > third thing is, yes, if you've eaten a LOT of apples, you'll start wanting > something other than apples. > > Try the reverse question: would you be happy if you were never allowed to > read any poems but your favorite one hundred? > > Me: > > > C. Coherence (since, in opposition to B, the more unfamiliar one is with > > what's in a poem, the less likely it will be able to cause any kind of > > intense sensual response); grammaticality, unspecializedness, aptness of > > words chosen and the like would be components contributing to this (but > > their opposites would often contribute to Freshness of Expression); > > You: > > > All this sounds like consistency to me. Who ever said poets or writers in > > general must be consistent. I've seen plenty of work I really like for > > their effect that do none of the above but are still accessible and > > interesting. The experience of encountering and entering into them may > not > > be sensual or emotive, but is engaging nonetheless. > > Me: > > Try to remember what I've said. Aside from that, > coherence is understandability; consistency is something that can help make > something coherent but isn't necessary. Consistency is necessary for unity, > though, something else I deem an element of effective poems: > > > D. Unity (since a poem consisting of two or more unconnected parts will > only > > give one a single response to each part whereas a poem unifying those > parts > > will give one those same responses PLUS responses to each combination of > > parts--e.g., a poem consisting of stanza x and stanza y will give the > person > > experiencing it only responses x and y if the two stanzas are not united; > if > > the two stanzas are united, however, the poem will give the person > response > > xy besides responses x and y) > > You: > > > Ummmm -- supposing the poet wants the reader to be 'jerked about', put > into > > a series of unfamiliar, unrelated contexts? > > Me: > > If they are really unrelated, the poem would lose to the degree that > disunity resulted. But successful poems that seem disunity always, I > believe, have a higher unity--such as the experience of schizophrenia, > say--or of drunkenness. I believe the best poems have other means of > unifying, too--perhaps rhyme or rhythm, perhaps type of imagery, etc. > > Me: > > > E. Equaphorical Vigor, by which I mean the effective use of metaphors and > > related devices such as similes which I call "equaphors" in my poetics: > good > > use of equaphors increases conciseness but, equally or more important, > > allows a person experiencing a poem to respond sensually to two or more > > major stimuli at once which must increase the richness of the response. > > You: > > > Again, in your opinion. > > Me: > > If you'll go back, you'll see I prefaced my list with the words, "My List," > rather than "The List." > > You" > > >A reader doesn't necessarily need these to enter a > > poem, but must discomfort her/himself to enter in. > > Me: > > Watch out! Here you inadvertantly contributed something constructive: you > reminded me of another element of an effective poem: something that signals > "poetry," thus causing aesthetic distancing. Giving a person experiencing > it the feeling of being somewhere in addition to quotidian reality is one of > the virtues of good art, > > Or, readers discomfort themselves to enter, as you put it, or would have put > it if not for your silliness about gender. > > You: > > >AND too much of any of > > the above (and the judicious line is so thin) and the writer has told all > > there is to tell, experienced all there is to experience already, and so > > precludes the necessity for the reader to do so. > > Me: > > I don't follow the relevance of this. The more equaphorical vigor, the more > places a poem's experiencer can go, and there are a near-infintiy of places > to go. > > Me: > > > 3. Maximal Span, or size and range (important, I feel, because the more of > > existence one poem covers compared to a second poem, the larger the > > experience one ought to be able to get from the first poem, other things > > being equal); contributing to this are the number and variety of subjects > > the poem covers, the variety of vocabulary it uses, including non-verbal > > vocabulary such as graphic images, mathematical symbols, and so on; > > Me: > > > Okay -- I do agree with you here. I've often seen 'small' ideas given way > > too much scope, and vice versa. > > You: > > I'll leave it in, anyway. > > > 4. Archetypal Depth (since some subject matter is clearly of more > > significance to human beings than other, and the most important subject > > matter seems to be that which has entered human mythologies--maternal > love, > > for instance; sexual attraction, jealousy, etc.; the quest for triumph > over > > enemies, for peace, for Israel, for fame as a singer, etc.; > > You: > > > Bleh!! There really is absolutely no reason to deal with any of these > > things AT ALL in poetry!! I prefer using contemporary cultural tropes and > > signs/signifiers. > > Me: > > Fine. As I've said twice now, you needn't include all the elements in your > poetry. But I suspect that those of your poems you think your best touch > on the archetypal. Ah, I now suspect you think the archetypal has to > explicity mention Zeus or something. Surely, you are not really that dense. > > Me: > > > 5. Filler, or elements without poetic value that most poems will have > simply > > because few poems can be nothing but poetry. > > You: > > > Ya think? Nah -- it's not really that simple ... nothing is, but > especially poetry. > > Me: > > All I can say is that in my experience, even the best haiku and smaller > poems are rarely all poetry. > > Me: > > > Summary: given that a poem must consist of words or elements that act like > > words, I define an effective poem as having three dimensions: sensual > > richness (width), maximal span (length) and archetypal depth (depth), with > > five secondary elements contributing consequentially to sensual > > richness:conciseness, freshness of expression, coherence, unity and > > equaphorical vigor. > > Me: > > I forgot to note, again, that some elements or even a dimension or two may > be missing. > > You: > > > Summary: I say that your view of what comprises good/effective poetry is > > terribly narrow and conservative. You need to "get out more" ... out of > the > > poetry square you comfortably occupy, Bob. > > Me: > > To repeat: tell me what I have to add to get "out of > the poetry square (I) comfortably occupy," Zan. > > --Bob G. > > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest > From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Fri Oct 18 00:00:31 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:00:31 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality References: <20021016114958.33975.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> <014d01c275f6$f6a7ec80$45864cca@JROSS2> <013501c27629$34abb480$50acefd8@0021936706> Message-ID: <008d01c2765a$eb58ba30$7a864cca@JROSS2> I never said that AT ALL!! sigh. Maybe if you went back and read my and Michael's postings on this subject, you might get it then. If not, well SOME village somewhere is undoubtedly missing their idiot. You could perhaps try the one I left. AS to your being a feminist, I don't think so. You could be a feminist supporter, just not a feminist. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Anthony Robinson To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Sorry Zan, If I understand what you're saying (and I very well may not), count me as an idiot too. What exactly is it that you want to do? Remove all gendered pronouns from the language? That seems a step back, unless you're of the ilk that believes that there is NO difference between the sexes or no good reasons to differentiate. I can think of quite a few, though. And I consider myself a feminist. Can you explain a bit further? Tony *** "The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." Emily Dickinson *** "I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth century." C. Montgomery Burns *** "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be better left alone." Kenneth Koch *** ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker" ----- Original Message ----- From: ganesha To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality I wanted to backchannel you with a reply, but as I couldn't find your address, I'll say it publicly: you're an idiot. cordially yours, Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient. Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that sort of stuff. I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, My point is what you said below re, "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another." They bloody well do! Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin with. And femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just such issues of pronouns. Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Fri Oct 18 00:31:25 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:31:25 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] apology References: Message-ID: <001101c2765f$3acefe90$7a864cca@JROSS2> I hereby apologise for publicly calling Jeff an idiot. I was extremely annoyed at the time, but still should have given the "long" answer to his post. I'll just return to my own village, which has been missing its idiot for an inordinate amount of time. Zan From lshinn at sas.upenn.edu Fri Oct 18 08:50:16 2002 From: lshinn at sas.upenn.edu (Leslie Shinn) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 08:50:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I understand your charge, and respect it. But, please, add a few details so that I may better understand your thinking. I am interested. Thanks. >I've read both -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 18 08:56:06 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 05:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality In-Reply-To: <014d01c275f6$f6a7ec80$45864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <20021018125606.62504.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Typically dismissive response. My original point still remains. If you ever feel the need, I'd like to see you explain your position. Am I an idiot because I disagree with you? Am I an idiot because we don't share the same world view? Or am I an idiot because you're too narrow-minded to accept opinions different from yours? Cordially, Jeff Newberry (jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com) ganesha wrote:I wanted to backchannel you with a reply, but as I couldn't find your address, I'll say it publicly: you're an idiot. cordially yours, Zan----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:49 PMSubject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient. Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that sort of stuff. I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, My point is what you said below re, "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another." They bloody well do! Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin with. And femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just such issues of pronouns. Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PMSubject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Oct 18 10:02:44 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:02:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal Mullen Message-ID: <11b.187a0f19.2ae16e84@aol.com> In a message dated 10/17/02 1:36:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > > The Liberation of Ms. Liberty > > I'm not your doormat anymore. > I'm slamming shut the open door. > You can keep your tired, your sick, your poor. > Your huddled masses, what do I need them for? > > Once upon a time I carried a torch > for foreign-born folks who don't eat with forks. > Now when I see such useless dorks, > I assertively shout, "You scum, get off my porch!" > > I need my own space. There's no room anymore > for freeloaders who think I've got booty galore. > Taking care of your needs is a thankless chore, > so just keep off my domestic shores. In this case, the poem itself is a poor, huddled mass of words. On a coupla counts: The rime is handled without any verve: instead of being a verbal dynamic the poem has exploited, its just boring and simplistic. The political dimension is clearly inaccurate and without nuance: Immigrant populations never had an easy go of things on these shores. Finnegan From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Oct 18 10:04:31 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:04:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Laureate Onion Message-ID: <200210181403.g9IE3ZQU003708@mx15.mx.voyager.net> Headline from the inimitable Onion (http://www.theonion.com) -- Nantucket Poet Laureate Refuses To Apologize For Controversial Limerick ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From joseph.lucia at villanova.edu Fri Oct 18 10:21:42 2002 From: joseph.lucia at villanova.edu (Joseph Lucia) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:21:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets References: Message-ID: <3DB018F6.A44043A9@villanova.edu> > > Joe, I've read that book several times...always trying to like it, because > it's often mentioned as "important" and "brilliant" & whatnot. But I found > the book to be too full of groaner puns and I-see-it-coming-from-a-mile-away > wordplay. Anyway, I came away from the book more dismayed than amazed. > Finnegan. F -- Those labels pre-packaging "importance" and "brilliance" get in the way, don't they? I think part of the issue comes down to how one takes / experiences pleasure in a text. For me, it's the skewed polyvocal character of Muse & Drudge that appeals even as it discomforts. There are many different idiolects bisecting a fairly simple formal matrix (the blues stanza, the traditional verse quatrain) that quivers and shakes under the weight of all that discursive energy. I think that the bad puns and the bumpiness of the writing work against the simple ascription of "song-like" voice to the song form. There's a deliberate raucous awkwardness in places, which has something to do with "drudge." Then there are flashes of more straightforward "song" that get interrupted, cut-off. I wish I had my copy of M&D to hand (it's at home and I'm im my office) to hand for examples. I see the work as a crazy quilt or map where may different voicings (not voices only) collide and collude. It's not comfortable, but for me it's engaging. Is it "absorptively" pleasurable? Not exactly. But there's pleasure in the rough transport. When it comes to available pleasures from differing poetic stances, though, as we all know, mileage varies, based on what one needs or expects poetry to do. Witness the various frames around that in this very forum (that I've been away from too long). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Oct 18 11:22:19 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:22:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] In Form Message-ID: <200210181521.g9IFLMrT013002@mx10.mx.voyager.net> Two things I often propose to students when we discuss poetic form. 1. All poetry has form, just as all matter has mass, and just as all language contains rhythm. Calling something "formal" just isn't very precise, then, and leads to many tail-chasing arguments. Better to begin at a more specific level, and distinguish among received forms of various types; formal strategies employed, avoided, or flirted with; invented or nonce forms; etc. ("Good form" is another matter entirely. "A completely disheveled grouping of words," in Jim Finnegan's phrasing, is a formal gesture, yes, at least if the word "disheveled" actually means anything.) 2. Donald Hall points out that a "form" is anything you do twice. I'm not sure how practical this axiom is in the real world, but for me it does put a brake on the widely observed tendency to praise or blame a poem simply for the *kind* of formal strategies employed, rather than their particular effectiveness in a given poem. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= >Gabe, >but of course. However, "formalism" is a useful rubric...commonly, >in the course of conversation, it applies to those poems one >could find listed under sub-headings like Sonnet, Pantoum, etc., >in a handbook by Turco or Miller Williams. "Formal" means >something different from employing a form. To carry your argument >to the extreme, a completely disheveled grouping of words is only >another kind of form. >"Formalism," as opposed to the history of all possible >verse structures ever employed or that could be generated by >a computer using a randomizing program, has become a >narrower term. As spelling, too, has become more standardized >since "Olde" English. >Finnegan From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Oct 18 11:39:30 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:39:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In Form In-Reply-To: <200210181521.g9IFLMrT013002@mx10.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3DAFF2F2.27977.6D98F5@localhost> David Graham: > 2. Donald Hall points out that a "form" is anything you do twice. I'm not > sure how practical this axiom is in the real world, but for me it does put a > brake on the widely observed tendency to praise or blame a poem simply for > the *kind* of formal strategies employed, rather than their particular > effectiveness in a given poem. Around here we say "Once is a mistake, twice is on purpose, three times is art." Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Oct 18 11:46:48 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:46:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal Mullen In-Reply-To: <11b.187a0f19.2ae16e84@aol.com> Message-ID: on 10/18/02 9:02 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/17/02 1:36:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > >> >> The Liberation of Ms. Liberty >> >> I'm not your doormat anymore. >> I'm slamming shut the open door. >> You can keep your tired, your sick, your poor. >> Your huddled masses, what do I need them for? >> >> Once upon a time I carried a torch >> for foreign-born folks who don't eat with forks. >> Now when I see such useless dorks, >> I assertively shout, "You scum, get off my porch!" >> >> I need my own space. There's no room anymore >> for freeloaders who think I've got booty galore. >> Taking care of your needs is a thankless chore, >> so just keep off my domestic shores. > > In this case, the poem itself is a poor, huddled mass > of words. On a coupla counts: > The rime is handled without any verve: instead > of being a verbal dynamic the poem has exploited, > its just boring and simplistic. The political dimension > is clearly inaccurate and without nuance: > Immigrant populations never had an easy go > of things on these shores. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > We can add to your list of charges the fact that the meter is handled with a complete lack of skill. The poem is pretty awful from start to finish. Paul Lake From antrobin at clipper.net Fri Oct 18 12:05:27 2002 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:05:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality References: <20021016114958.33975.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> <014d01c275f6$f6a7ec80$45864cca@JROSS2> <013501c27629$34abb480$50acefd8@0021936706> <008d01c2765a$eb58ba30$7a864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <00cf01c276c0$318e4140$bbacefd8@0021936706> Zan, I hope the tone in your last post was one of frustration and not hostility. I'm not here to bait you or to engage in argument for argument's sake--I simply requested a clarification. If we both agree that English is a sexist language, but you don't want to remove gendered pronouns, what exactly is your point? What changes should be made? I'm genuinely interested in finding an answer to the question, as it's not immediately clear to me from your posts what is being suggested, other than some people on the list are, in your opinion, idiots. What makes them idiots? What's the offending point of view? As for me being a feminist, I guess it depends on your definition. If by Zan's definition, a feminist must be female, then no, I guess I'm not a feminist, but merely a supporter. My definition, though, doesn't descriminate by gender. Best, Tony *** "The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." Emily Dickinson *** "I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth century." C. Montgomery Burns *** "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be better left alone." Kenneth Koch *** ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker" ----- Original Message ----- From: ganesha To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality I never said that AT ALL!! sigh. Maybe if you went back and read my and Michael's postings on this subject, you might get it then. If not, well SOME village somewhere is undoubtedly missing their idiot. You could perhaps try the one I left. AS to your being a feminist, I don't think so. You could be a feminist supporter, just not a feminist. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Anthony Robinson To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 6:04 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Sorry Zan, If I understand what you're saying (and I very well may not), count me as an idiot too. What exactly is it that you want to do? Remove all gendered pronouns from the language? That seems a step back, unless you're of the ilk that believes that there is NO difference between the sexes or no good reasons to differentiate. I can think of quite a few, though. And I consider myself a feminist. Can you explain a bit further? Tony *** "The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." Emily Dickinson *** "I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth century." C. Montgomery Burns *** "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be better left alone." Kenneth Koch *** ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker" ----- Original Message ----- From: ganesha To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality I wanted to backchannel you with a reply, but as I couldn't find your address, I'll say it publicly: you're an idiot. cordially yours, Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient. Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that sort of stuff. I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, My point is what you said below re, "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another." They bloody well do! Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin with. And femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just such issues of pronouns. Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Fri Oct 18 12:17:11 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:17:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Formal Mullen Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F7F@mail.ripon.edu> I'll have to take another look at *Muse & Drudge*, I guess. My first encounter with it was like Finnegan's, and I wasn't moved to continue. It's better than "The Liberation of Ms. Liberty," as I recall. I don't want to merely pile on a bad poem (we're all allowed our occasional lapses, I hope), but the poem below by Mullen does seem so inept as to raise the question of whether it could, possibly, be intended as parody of "formalist" moves. If so, it's an inept parody, since we shouldn't have to raise the question at all. In any event, howlers like the absurdly redundant "I assertively shout" are just painful. The sort of thing you see in student poets who are still struggling with the basics, seems to me. A *quiet* shout, now that might be interesting. . . . ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > >> The Liberation of Ms. Liberty > >> > >> I'm not your doormat anymore. > >> I'm slamming shut the open door. > >> You can keep your tired, your sick, your poor. > >> Your huddled masses, what do I need them for? > >> > >> Once upon a time I carried a torch > >> for foreign-born folks who don't eat with forks. > >> Now when I see such useless dorks, > >> I assertively shout, "You scum, get off my porch!" > >> > >> I need my own space. There's no room anymore > >> for freeloaders who think I've got booty galore. > >> Taking care of your needs is a thankless chore, > >> so just keep off my domestic shores. > > > > In this case, the poem itself is a poor, huddled mass > > of words. On a coupla counts: > > The rime is handled without any verve: instead > > of being a verbal dynamic the poem has exploited, > > its just boring and simplistic. The political dimension > > is clearly inaccurate and without nuance: > > Immigrant populations never had an easy go > > of things on these shores. > > Finnegan We can add to your list of charges the fact that the meter is handled with a complete lack of skill. The poem is pretty awful from start to finish. Paul Lake From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Fri Oct 18 12:28:05 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:28:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] formalism and force In-Reply-To: <001101c2765f$3acefe90$7a864cca@JROSS2> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021018110748.014e82f8@mail.ilstu.edu> Zan's apology to Jeff (and the abrupt tone of my own post) got me thinking about why it can be so difficult for poets to talk about form and formalism. Seems true -- though maybe it isn't -- that one of the key causes of arguments among poets is the issue of form and formalism. Genre rules are always being contested -- and those areas that bear communal rules for writing are often hot spots. Seems to me there are two ways form is principally used: 1. As an aid to writing or invention; 2. As a means by which to read (or, in many cases, to judge) a literary product. Silliman's _Ketjak_ is a rigorously formal poem, and it uses a certain format (or form), adhering to it throughout. But because its rules of invention are not (or were not, when it was written) communal rules (such as, say, the rules for the Petrarchan Sonnet), many will often deny its formalism. Two key areas that give rise to arguments in my experience are: (a) Failure of certain parties to recognize that form is both an aid to invention as well as an aid to reading; (b) The use of form as a means to avoid reading by an act of what cd generously be called "judgment" (eg, good/bad); in which case genre rules are used to dismiss work outright. This latter can really get my goat gabe From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 18 12:42:03 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:42:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In Form References: <200210181521.g9IFLMrT013002@mx10.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <000c01c276c5$4a333520$c238fea9@j1c1k6> > Two things I often propose to students when we discuss poetic form. > > 1. All poetry has form, just as all matter has mass, and just as all > language contains rhythm. I get around this, with no followers, by dividing poems into "classiformular" for those that repeat traditional forms, and "idioformular" for those that create their own forms. >Calling something "formal" just isn't very > precise, then, and leads to many tail-chasing arguments. Better to begin at > a more specific level, and distinguish among received forms of various > types; formal strategies employed, avoided, or flirted with; invented or > nonce forms; etc. > > ("Good form" is another matter entirely. "A completely disheveled grouping > of words," in Jim Finnegan's phrasing, is a formal gesture, yes, at least if > the word "disheveled" actually means anything.) Agreed. > 2. Donald Hall points out that a "form" is anything you do twice. I'm not > sure how practical this axiom is in the real world, but for me it does put a > brake on the widely observed tendency to praise or blame a poem simply for > the *kind* of formal strategies employed, rather than their particular > effectiveness in a given poem. I think when the term is used sensibly, a "form" is anything that is known to be or have been widely used. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 18 12:45:18 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:45:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal Mullen References: Message-ID: <002a01c276c5$be5b8920$c238fea9@j1c1k6> > >> The Liberation of Ms. Liberty > >> > >> I'm not your doormat anymore. > >> I'm slamming shut the open door. > >> You can keep your tired, your sick, your poor. > >> Your huddled masses, what do I need them for? > >> > >> Once upon a time I carried a torch > >> for foreign-born folks who don't eat with forks. > >> Now when I see such useless dorks, > >> I assertively shout, "You scum, get off my porch!" > >> > >> I need my own space. There's no room anymore > >> for freeloaders who think I've got booty galore. > >> Taking care of your needs is a thankless chore, > >> so just keep off my domestic shores. > > > > In this case, the poem itself is a poor, huddled mass > > of words. On a coupla counts: > > The rime is handled without any verve: instead > > of being a verbal dynamic the poem has exploited, > > its just boring and simplistic. The political dimension > > is clearly inaccurate and without nuance: > > Immigrant populations never had an easy go > > of things on these shores. > > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > We can add to your list of charges the fact that the meter is handled with a > complete lack of skill. The poem is pretty awful from start to finish. > > Paul Lake Knowing next to nothing about Mullen, I got the impression this poem was a satire on the kind of thought and poetry-making of bad right-wingers. --Bob G. From mandolin at mac.com Fri Oct 18 14:01:29 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] formalism and force Message-ID: <1163773.1034964089519.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Friday, Oct 18, 2002, at 12:28PM, Gabriel Gudding wrote: >Zan's apology to Jeff (and the abrupt tone of my own post) got me thinking >about why it can be so difficult for poets to talk about form and formalism. > >Seems true -- though maybe it isn't -- that one of the key causes of >arguments among poets is the issue of form and formalism. > Among those on either "side" who have an axe to grind, sure. Most of us just want to find what we can do, and are interested in how other people think and work. >Genre rules are always being contested -- and those areas that bear >communal rules for writing are often hot spots. > >Seems to me there are two ways form is principally used: 1. As an aid to >writing or invention; 2. As a means by which to read (or, in many cases, to >judge) a literary product. Near-total agrrement here, with a caveat about form as a means to judge, especially as you expand that notion below (which is where I explain my caveat). > >Silliman's _Ketjak_ is a rigorously formal poem, and it uses a certain >format (or form), adhering to it throughout. But because its rules of >invention are not (or were not, when it was written) communal rules (such >as, say, the rules for the Petrarchan Sonnet), many will often deny its >formalism. > I don't think that's the distinction. The sonnet was a once a nonce form. What most folks who call themselves formalists (excluding the ax-grinders) appear to mean by the term is that they work principally with accentual-syllabic meters. They don't mean that no one else uses form, or that there are no other forms--it's a label, not a description or a judgement. It may well be an unfortunately chosen label. >Two key areas that give rise to arguments in my experience are: (a) Failure >of certain parties to recognize that form is both an aid to invention as >well as an aid to reading; (b) The use of form as a means to avoid reading >by an act of what cd generously be called "judgment" (eg, good/bad); in >which case genre rules are used to dismiss work outright. This latter can >really get my goat How could any person seriously interested in poetry (unless involved in a narrowly defined research project) take a book of poems down from the shelf, scan a few pages, mutter "no sonnets here," and put the book back? Why would you care what such a person thought about poems? You got your own goat this time, by assuming my question about Mullen was value-laden. I really wanted to know about the formal aspects of her poetry, and how it connected or didn't connect with what is usually called formalism, whether New or not. From mandolin at mac.com Fri Oct 18 14:02:47 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Formal Mullen Message-ID: <735084.1034964167881.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> On Friday, Oct 18, 2002, at 12:45PM, Bob Grumman wrote: [poem snipped] >> > >> We can add to your list of charges the fact that the meter is handled with >a >> complete lack of skill. The poem is pretty awful from start to finish. >> >> Paul Lake > >Knowing next to nothing about Mullen, I got the impression this poem was a >satire on the kind of thought and poetry-making of bad right-wingers. > >--Bob G. > Having heard too much nearly identical stuff at open mics and slams, I'd have sooner suspected it to be a satire of bad left-wing poetry. The other poems of hers on the web are so much better--which is why, also knowing next-to-nothing about Mullen, I was curious how she could be considered a formalist, in the ordinary way that term is used. From JforJames at aol.com Fri Oct 18 15:18:19 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:18:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets Message-ID: <146.b8b9a4.2ae1b87b@aol.com> In a message dated 10/18/02 10:23:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, joseph.lucia at villanova.edu writes: > > F -- > > Those labels pre-packaging "importance" and "brilliance" get in the > way, > don't they? I think part of the issue comes down to how one takes / > experiences > pleasure in a text. For me, it's the skewed polyvocal character of Muse & > Drudge that appeals even as it discomforts. There are many different > idiolects > bisecting a fairly simple formal matrix (the blues stanza, the traditional > verse > quatrain) that quivers and shakes under the weight of all that discursive > energy. I think that the bad puns and the bumpiness of the writing work > against > the simple ascription of "song-like" voice to the song form. There's a > deliberate raucous awkwardness in places, which has something to do with > "drudge." Then there are flashes of more straightforward "song" that get > interrupted, cut-off. I wish I had my copy of M&D to hand (it's at home and > I'm > im my office) to hand for examples. I see the work as a crazy quilt or map > where may different voicings (not voices only) collide and collude. It's > not > comfortable, but for me it's engaging. > > Is it "absorptively" pleasurable? Not exactly. But there's pleasure in > the > rough transport. When it comes to available pleasures from differing poetic > stances, though, as we all know, mileage varies, based on what one needs or > expects poetry to do. Witness the various frames around that in this very > forum > (that I've been away from too long). > > Joe, once more into the breach, I guess. I'll go back with as open a mind as possible. I want to clarify that I don't mind poetry that disturbs me or upsets my notion of what a poetry can/should be doing. Finnegan From Cadaly at aol.com Fri Oct 18 15:36:58 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:36:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] National book award poets Message-ID: <62.2739110f.2ae1bcda@aol.com> I will -- it will take me a while -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu Fri Oct 18 15:42:39 2002 From: acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu (Alan C Golding) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:42:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mullen Message-ID: I wanted to de-lurk briefly to say a few words about Harryette Mullen's work, which I value tremendously and which I don't feel is either represented or discussed to its best advantage here. First, to disagree with Jim and Paul regarding the following poem: "The Liberation of Ms. Liberty" I'm not your doormat anymore. I'm slamming shut the open door. You can keep your tired, your sick, your poor. Your huddled masses, what do I need them for? Once upon a time I carried a torch for foreign-born folks who don't eat with forks. Now when I see such useless dorks, I assertively shout, "You scum, get off my porch!" I need my own space. There's no room anymore for freeloaders who think I've got booty galore. Taking care of your needs is a thankless chore, so just keep off my domestic shores. In this case, the poem itself is a poor, huddled mass of words. On a coupla counts: The rime is handled without any verve: instead of being a verbal dynamic the poem has exploited, its just boring and simplistic. The political dimension is clearly inaccurate and without nuance: Immigrant populations never had an easy go of things on these shores. Finnegan We can add to your list of charges the fact that the meter is handled with a complete lack of skill. The poem is pretty awful from start to finish. Paul Lake" Now I don't want to make a case for this poem as major Mullen, but I want to suggest that you're both perhaps reading it a bit too earnestly. My view is we're in the admittedly shaky category of the deliberately "bad" poem here. It's not that the meter is handled with a complete lack of skill (i.e., that she was trying to do better and just couldn't because she's too incompetent a prosodist); it's that it's handled with a *deliberate* "lack of skill.* In other words, the prosody is intentionally clunky. The immediate precedent here would be Bernstein's "nude formalism." And to argue against the poem's perceived politics by arguing that, contra Mullen, "Immigrant populations never had an easy go of things on these shores" is to misread tone and speaker in my view. To read the poem as straightforwardly saying that immigrants have always had it too easy is to conflate speaker and poet. For one thing, how likely is it that an educated black woman who has written reams of poetry, criticism, and historical analysis on/of race issues and slavery take that position? The speaker, I'd propose, is an unenlightened Ms. Liberty herself acting as spokesperson for a particular strain of anti-"immigrant" racism (I put the term in scare quotes because I suspect Mullen may want it to include people not typically covered by it, ie., slaves and their descendants); the poem is satirizing that position, partly *through* the silliness and clunkiness of its cliched diction and prosody. One more quatrain and one would expect to start hearing about welfare queens. So, as I said, not a poem I'd want to justify Mullen's NBA candidacy with, but rather more layered than others have been suggesting. (Unless I'm misreading *you* . . .) The effects in *Muse & Drudge* are cumulative rather than local, so it's hard to communicate its pleasures (for those of us who feel there are indeed pleasures there) by brief quotation. The book works like a kind of poetic pinball machine, references and sound bouncing off each other with increasingly dizzying speed as you read. But it's possible to suggest a kind of complexity (at the levels of cultural reference, historical analysis/awareness and word play combined) that I think Jim, for one, is not finding in the work. One could start with the fake epigraph from Callimachus, "fatten your animal for sacrifice, poet, but keep your muse slender"--which sets up a thematics of cultural norms surrounding the (especially black) female body, notions of beauty, slenderness vs. heaviness, etc. that runs right through the book. Then we go to the first stanza: Sapphire's lyre styles plucked eyebrows bow lips and legs whose lives are lonely too The sound play can seem somewhat "obvious" at some level, I suppose, but it's also quite pleasurably dense, to me, and covers quite a range: the alliteration, assonance, internal rhyme, eye rhyme, the quick slip into a traditional metric in the last line. In line 1 the black woman in "Amos and Andy" (Sapphire), one stereotype of the black female, meets Sappho via the title of Diane Rayor's translations of Sappho, *Sappho's Lyre.* The phrase *Bow lips* splice the woman putting on lipstick to make her mouth look like Cupid's bow with the musical bow used for the violin that is also lurking behind the "plucked" of line 2, while we also have another stringed instrument more overtly present, the "lyre" of line 1 (with its homophone "liar" raising issues of poetic ("lyric") truth, authenticity, etc.). And so on. This isn't even the densest stanza in the book, not by quite a way. No time for more, but just to conclude by proposing that this quatrain introduces some major motifs of the book--stereotypes of black women, different kinds of music, female body image, images of the poet and questions of what we mean by "lyric"--efficiently, playfully, wittily, and at the level of sound, pleasureably. And I'd add for anyone who might want to argue "how could any 'regular' reader get all that out of that stanza," that I've taught M & D and *Trimmings* for some years to all levels of student from sophomore to advanced graduate and to English-as-a-second-language speakers (admittedly, sophisticated ones, non-American English-speaking academics) and most of those readers have loved the work. No-one gets everything, but they all seem to find they get something: which is how, according to Mullen herself, she designed *Muse & Drudge*. OK, more than enough for now. Alan From JforJames at aol.com Fri Oct 18 15:50:24 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:50:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Bowery Poetry Club Message-ID: <3c.263a398b.2ae1c000@aol.com> This week I had the opportunity to spend an afternoon and evening in NYC. After wiling away a couple of lovely hours reading at the Poets House, while the last of the Nor'easter blew through, I took L line up to The West Village and caught a reading that was part of "Fuse Week." (Celebrating the release of a so-called "fusion poetry" anthology, Short Fuse, a copy of which I bought but haven't read enuf of yet to form any opinion.) The reading featured Ron Silliman, Simon Armitage and Stephan Pandopolis (sp?). A contrast of approaches, for sure. I'm ashamed to say it was my first time hearing Ron Silliman read. I certainly was not disappointed. In fact hearing him read (he read at a very lively pace) gave me another insight, or way into, experiencing his poems on the page...this is very inarticulate, but I think I need to see the words less discreetly and to try more to hear the collisions between them as they tumble forth. Ron clued me into another Short Fuse reading being held at The Bowery Poetry Club. (On Bowery, just shy of Bleeker, across from CBGB.) This is a new performance space; the club (a la nightclub) is, I understand , run by Bob Holman, the famous emcee from the Nuyorican, performance poet and anthologist, and now a prof at Bard College, to boot. A very cool place: with books on display and for sale across from the bar (a version of the Beat heaven, perhaps.) Most of the other poets who read tilted heavily toward the performance side of poetry....w/ mixed results. Some were very good. Some were so-so. Finnegan From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Fri Oct 18 18:19:36 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:19:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Formal Mullen In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F7F@mail.ripon.edu> References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F7F@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: I'm about to teach Muse & Drudge in a week or so. Any insights will be most welcome. I have the jitters about it, as these are lower-division undergrads who aren't exactly on fire. ellen s. >I'll have to take another look at *Muse & Drudge*, I guess. My first >encounter with it was like Finnegan's, and I wasn't moved to continue. It's >better than "The Liberation of Ms. Liberty," as I recall. > >I don't want to merely pile on a bad poem (we're all allowed our occasional >lapses, I hope), but the poem below by Mullen does seem so inept as to raise >the question of whether it could, possibly, be intended as parody of >"formalist" moves. If so, it's an inept parody, since we shouldn't have to >raise the question at all. > >In any event, howlers like the absurdly redundant "I assertively shout" are >just painful. The sort of thing you see in student poets who are still >struggling with the basics, seems to me. A *quiet* shout, now that might >be interesting. . . . > >============================================ >David Graham >Professor of English, Ripon College >grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > My Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > >"We're writing the book on quality: personal, >undergraduate education." >Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu >============================================ > > >> ---------- >> >> The Liberation of Ms. Liberty >> >> >> >> I'm not your doormat anymore. >> >> I'm slamming shut the open door. >> >> You can keep your tired, your sick, your poor. >> >> Your huddled masses, what do I need them for? >> >> >> >> Once upon a time I carried a torch >> >> for foreign-born folks who don't eat with forks. >> >> Now when I see such useless dorks, >> >> I assertively shout, "You scum, get off my porch!" >> >> >> >> I need my own space. There's no room anymore >> >> for freeloaders who think I've got booty galore. >> >> Taking care of your needs is a thankless chore, >> >> so just keep off my domestic shores. >> > >> > In this case, the poem itself is a poor, huddled mass >> > of words. On a coupla counts: >> > The rime is handled without any verve: instead >> > of being a verbal dynamic the poem has exploited, >> > its just boring and simplistic. The political dimension >> > is clearly inaccurate and without nuance: >> > Immigrant populations never had an easy go >> > of things on these shores. >> > Finnegan >We can add to your list of charges the fact that the meter is handled with a >complete lack of skill. The poem is pretty awful from start to finish. > >Paul Lake > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- From JforJames at aol.com Fri Oct 18 18:19:48 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 18:19:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Mullen Message-ID: <27.2f61a4bd.2ae1e304@aol.com> In a message dated 10/18/02 3:48:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu writes: > Now I don't want to make a case for this poem as major Mullen, but I > want to suggest that you're both perhaps reading it a bit too earnestly. > My view is we're in the admittedly shaky category of the deliberately > "bad" poem here. It's not that the meter is handled with a complete > lack of skill (i.e., that she was trying to do better and just couldn't > because she's too incompetent a prosodist); it's that it's handled with > a *deliberate* "lack of skill.* In other words, the prosody is > intentionally clunky. The immediate precedent here would be Bernstein's > "nude formalism." And to argue against the poem's perceived politics by > arguing that, contra Mullen, "Immigrant populations never had an easy go > of things on these shores" is to misread tone and speaker in my view. > To read the poem as straightforwardly saying that immigrants have always > had it too easy is to conflate speaker and poet. For one thing, how > likely is it that an educated black woman who has written reams of > poetry, criticism, and historical analysis on/of race issues and slavery > take that position? The speaker, I'd propose, is an unenlightened Ms. > Liberty herself acting as spokesperson for a particular strain of > anti-"immigrant" racism (I put the term in scare quotes because I > suspect Mullen may want it to include people not typically covered by > it, ie., slaves and their descendants); the poem is satirizing that > position, partly *through* the silliness and clunkiness of its cliched > diction and prosody. One more quatrain and one would expect to start > hearing about welfare queens. So, as I said, not a poem I'd want to > justify Mullen's NBA candidacy with, but rather more layered than others > have been suggesting. (Unless I'm misreading *you* . . .) > > The effects in *Muse & Drudge* are cumulative rather than local, so > it's hard to communicate its pleasures (for those of us who feel there > are indeed pleasures there) by brief quotation. The book works like a > kind of poetic pinball machine, references and sound bouncing off each > other with increasingly dizzying speed as you read. But it's possible > to suggest a kind of complexity (at the levels of cultural reference, > historical analysis/awareness and word play combined) that I think Jim, > for one, is not finding in the work. One could start with the fake > epigraph from Callimachus, "fatten your animal for sacrifice, poet, but > keep your muse slender"--which sets up a thematics of cultural norms > surrounding the (especially black) female body, notions of beauty, > slenderness vs. heaviness, etc. that runs right through the book. Then > we go to the first stanza: > > Sapphire's lyre styles > plucked eyebrows > bow lips and legs > whose lives are lonely too > > The sound play can seem somewhat "obvious" at some level, I suppose, > but it's also quite pleasurably dense, to me, and covers quite a range: > the alliteration, assonance, internal rhyme, eye rhyme, the quick slip > into a traditional metric in the last line. In line 1 the black woman > in "Amos and Andy" (Sapphire), one stereotype of the black female, meets > Sappho via the title of Diane Rayor's translations of Sappho, *Sappho's > Lyre.* The phrase *Bow lips* splice the woman putting on lipstick to > make her mouth look like Cupid's bow with the musical bow used for the > violin that is also lurking behind the "plucked" of line 2, while we > also have another stringed instrument more overtly present, the "lyre" > of line 1 (with its homophone "liar" raising issues of poetic ("lyric") > truth, authenticity, etc.). And so on. This isn't even the densest > stanza in the book, not by quite a way. No time for more, but just to > conclude by proposing that this quatrain introduces some major motifs of > the book--stereotypes of black women, different kinds of music, female > body image, images of the poet and questions of what we mean by > "lyric"--efficiently, playfully, wittily, and at the level of sound, > pleasureably. > > And I'd add for anyone who might want to argue "how could any 'regular' > reader get all that out of that stanza," that I've taught M & D and > *Trimmings* for some years to all levels of student from sophomore to > advanced graduate and to English-as-a-second-language speakers > (admittedly, sophisticated ones, non-American English-speaking > academics) and most of those readers have loved the work. No-one gets > everything, but they all seem to find they get something: which is how, > according to Mullen herself, she designed *Muse & Drudge*. > > OK, more than enough for now. > Alan, I did praise two out of three poems posted here. Now you want me to see Ms. Liberty as a better poem than it reads. But I can't go there, I'm afraid, despite your well-put points. I guess it gets down to the intention, for me. Intentionally writing bad poetry, even if the doggerel is coming from the mouth of a fictional speaker/persona, still begs the question, What's the point? It's akin to the mimetic fallacy, for me: If I'm going to write a poem dealing with my boredom, I shouldn't write a dreadfully boring poem. The effect of the Bernstein poems, if they are the ones I read in APR about 7 years ago, were similar. Bad formal poetry mimicking bad formal poetry...I don't get why this worth my effort? I thought parody was supposed to play off from the source material...to trump the source material, in a certain way, with its wit or satirical bite. I do read too earnestly at times...a bad habit when dealing with postmo lit....but doesn't the premise of the poem only work if once Ms. Liberty was more welcoming?...did carry the torch for her huddled masses? Can the poet/spaeker have it both ways? Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Sat Oct 19 11:07:24 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:07:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] in the Shearsman Gallery Message-ID: <53.1e269328.2ae2cf2c@aol.com> From: Tony Frazer Subject: Publication of John Hall's *Through the Gap* in the Shearsman Gallery The Shearsman Gallery is now open on the Shearsman.com website, and=20 features the first publication in this online series - John Hall's=20 *Through the Gap*. Given the nature of John Hall's work, this is a very=20= visual 'publication'. Shearsman Gallery home page =97 http://www.shearsman.com/pages/gallery/home.html You can skip straight to the contents page of *Through the Gap* with=20 this link: http://www.shearsman.com/pages/gallery/john_hall/contents.html Apart from the Gallery section, the rest of the site has been totally=20 restructured, which will invalidate all existing bookmarks except those=20= for the home page. The following links may therefore be of use if you=20 already have bookmarks for the website. Shearsman main home page =97 http://www.shearsman.com/ Shearsman Magazine home page - http://www.shearsman.com/pages/magazine/home.html Shearsman Books home page http://www.shearsman.com/pages/books/home.html If visitors happen to see any problems on the site, or have link=20 problems, I'd be grateful if they could let me know. The 52nd issue of=20= the magazine will be uploaded in early November. My apologies to those of you who receive this message more than once. Tony Frazer editor at shearsman.com From acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu Sat Oct 19 12:56:57 2002 From: acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu (Alan C Golding) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 12:56:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mullen Message-ID: Well, all points taken, Jim, which is why I only wanted to mount a modest defense of a fairly modest poem. (Though I would still disagree with applying the mimetic fallacy analogy to Mullen and Bernstein [the APR poems were indeed among those I had in mind, and I've actually written on those as a satire on APR as it was then constituted]--this "bad" formalism, which I think CB does better than HM because he exaggerates it to a clearly non-mimetic level, imitates the tropes of a formally "traditional" writing while not really sounding like an *example* of that writing.) Anyway, enough from me on "Ms. Liberty." But I'd still stand by what I said re *Muse &Drudge*. And if I had *Trimmings* here at home instead of in the office, I'd post something from that that I think represents Mullen at her best. Maybe Mon/Tues. Alan From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Oct 19 14:08:40 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:08:40 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mullen References: Message-ID: <3DB19FA7.D53E9B8A@earthlink.net> Hey---- Maybe I'm reading "too much" into that Mullen poem which yes I'd say is "fairly modest" but I like the way its meaning seems to change depending on whether you read it as public critique (bitter satire?) or poem with perhaps "merely personal" significance---both of which I think can be done, and the effect is strangely uncomfortable.... And yes it does call attention to the fact that it will probably be considered a bad poem by those who either value post-Poundian "free verse" or those on the other hand who value what is suppossed to be proper sophisticated rhyming formalism--- Yet I don't want to underestimate the value of it as a sign of eclecticism in Mullen... like what great "comic relief" after hearing so many bland readings of sophisticated poems....maybe an alanlogy would be like PHILLIP GUSTON or something doing those late "cartoony" paintings after moving away from "heroic abstractions"--- Mullen has done well I think to say, "hey, you can still do these kind of things, as long as it's not all that you do." That being said, I also prefer the poem to those Bernstein APR ones in part because it does raise questions of content outside of the poetry coterie stuff which Bernstein's doesn't (at least in my memory of those CB poems....). The Mullen poem is one I could teach in an undergrad composition class for its wider social significance, etc., in a way I couldn't or wouldn't want to teach Bernstein's-- maybe that doesn't matter so much. But I think it kinda does.... Hey, does anybody on the list still like (if ever having liked) that Dudley Randall poem from the 60s----"Booker T. and W.E.B."???? It is really a great poem to teach in freshman composition; and I'm not even that in the know of most of Mr. Randall's ouevre..... Chris Alan C Golding wrote: > Well, all points taken, Jim, which is why I only wanted to mount a > modest defense of a fairly modest poem. (Though I would still disagree > with applying the mimetic fallacy analogy to Mullen and Bernstein [the > APR poems were indeed among those I had in mind, and I've actually > written on those as a satire on APR as it was then constituted]--this > "bad" formalism, which I think CB does better than HM because he > exaggerates it to a clearly non-mimetic level, imitates the tropes of a > formally "traditional" writing while not really sounding like an > *example* of that writing.) Anyway, enough from me on "Ms. Liberty." > > But I'd still stand by what I said re *Muse &Drudge*. And if I had > *Trimmings* here at home instead of in the office, I'd post something > from that that I think represents Mullen at her best. Maybe Mon/Tues. > > Alan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Cadaly at aol.com Sat Oct 19 15:32:27 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 15:32:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Mullen Message-ID: Trimmings, after Tender Buttons, also very generative -- but half the appeal of langpo and the experimental poetry after it for me is pun, the worse, the better, so, if you don't like cheap puns and pop culture allusions, then Her red and white, white and blue banner manner. Her red and white all over black and blue. Hannah's bandanna flagging her down in the kitchen with Dinah, with Jemima. Someone in the kitchen I know. Trimmings, p. 11 I am unsure what you'll think of the color and racism meditations in Trimmings. Not to put it off too long, but without any sort of reference to the books, the reason I enjoyed Kyrie when first I read it, and then did not, but loved the source, is that I love documentary poetry and I love finding those great hidden works of American Studies, and the flu book is one of them. So then re-reading Kyrie, I remember it seeming (right -- how vague is that?) to be to be an exercise in not only sentimentality, but also an assumption of a certain religiousity in the reader, a shared, uniquely American religiousity (which I don't share). The Kyrie being a prayer, a group prayer. http://www.nortonpoets.com/ex/voigtekyrie.htm I remember it also seeming to say -- by its very form, position, time -- polemical things about oh, modernism, post modernism, the sonnet (esp. holy sonnet), and this terrible epidemic as the people who suffered through it experienced it. Mary McCarthy's parents died in it for example. The epidemic took place in 1918, just after the World War, at the pivot point of modernism, and also the time when prohibition was passed, which had uniquely racist overtones in some areas, like New Orleans. People at the time could not come to terms with it neatly. And Kyrie is very neat. So I am caught a bit -- writing from information is about intention, I do a lot of it, a lot of found poetry, too -- what do you do when the source is richer? Rely on the message of the new version, its form, position, time -- Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 20 13:31:14 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 12:31:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins review Message-ID: <200210201730.g9KHUGbv097146@mx12.mx.voyager.net> The NYTimes currently has a review of Billy Collins's *Nine Horses* by Mary Jo Salter. To my eyes it seems notable among Collins reviews in not having any apparent axe to grind, negatively or positively, or to dwell on his laureateship. It's mainly an appreciation of Collins's distinctive strengths, though she also acknowledges his limitations. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/20/books/review/20SALTERT.html ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Oct 20 13:28:33 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 13:28:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins review In-Reply-To: <200210201730.g9KHUGbv097146@mx12.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: { The NYTimes currently has a review of Billy Collins's *Nine Horses* by Mary { Jo Salter. To my eyes it seems notable among Collins reviews in not having { any apparent axe to grind, negatively or positively, or to dwell on his { laureateship. It's mainly an appreciation of Collins's distinctive { strengths, though she also acknowledges his limitations. Damn! Don't you just hate those namby-pamby, even-handed reviews? Next we'll be expected to admire Dubya's neckties, his confident stride toward the cameras, that cheerful wave of the hand. Hal "I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe --I believe what I believe is right." --George W. Bush, in Rome, July 22, 2001 Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 20 13:52:49 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 13:52:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins review References: <200210201730.g9KHUGbv097146@mx12.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <002301c27861$81af37e0$455cfea9@j1c1k6> And the reviewed get revieweder. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 1:31 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins review > The NYTimes currently has a review of Billy Collins's *Nine Horses* by Mary > Jo Salter. To my eyes it seems notable among Collins reviews in not having > any apparent axe to grind, negatively or positively, or to dwell on his > laureateship. It's mainly an appreciation of Collins's distinctive > strengths, though she also acknowledges his limitations. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/20/books/review/20SALTERT.html > ======================================== > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ======================================= > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Oct 21 02:16:41 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:16:41 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality References: <20021018125606.62504.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007601c278c9$6f0ba930$51864cca@JROSS2> I publicly apologised for being dismissive, Jeff ... actually frustrated into reacting like a total prat. I'm okay about someone thinking differently than I do IF there is a logic at work that is sound. I just don't feel that your arguments -- or rather dismissive statements in themselves -- are logical or tainted with any degree of largesse. I believe I argued my position quite well, thank you, with back up from Michael, and instead of responding to what we had to say, you said "So what?" Gee -- that's lots better than called someone an idiot, huh? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 8:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Typically dismissive response. My original point still remains. If you ever feel the need, I'd like to see you explain your position. Am I an idiot because I disagree with you? Am I an idiot because we don't share the same world view? Or am I an idiot because you're too narrow-minded to accept opinions different from yours? Cordially, Jeff Newberry (jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com) ganesha wrote: I wanted to backchannel you with a reply, but as I couldn't find your address, I'll say it publicly: you're an idiot. cordially yours, Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient. Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that sort of stuff. I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, My point is what you said below re, "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another." They bloody well do! Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin with. And femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just such issues of pronouns. Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Oct 21 10:32:26 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 09:32:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mullen In-Reply-To: <27.2f61a4bd.2ae1e304@aol.com> Message-ID: on 10/18/02 5:19 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/18/02 3:48:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu writes: > >> Now I don't want to make a case for this poem as major Mullen, but I >> want to suggest that you're both perhaps reading it a bit too earnestly. >> My view is we're in the admittedly shaky category of the deliberately >> "bad" poem here. It's not that the meter is handled with a complete >> lack of skill (i.e., that she was trying to do better and just couldn't >> because she's too incompetent a prosodist); it's that it's handled with >> a *deliberate* "lack of skill.* In other words, the prosody is >> intentionally clunky. The immediate precedent here would be Bernstein's >> "nude formalism." And to argue against the poem's perceived politics by >> arguing that, contra Mullen, "Immigrant populations never had an easy go >> of things on these shores" is to misread tone and speaker in my view. >> To read the poem as straightforwardly saying that immigrants have always >> had it too easy is to conflate speaker and poet. For one thing, how >> likely is it that an educated black woman who has written reams of >> poetry, criticism, and historical analysis on/of race issues and slavery >> take that position? The speaker, I'd propose, is an unenlightened Ms. >> Liberty herself acting as spokesperson for a particular strain of >> anti-"immigrant" racism (I put the term in scare quotes because I >> suspect Mullen may want it to include people not typically covered by >> it, ie., slaves and their descendants); the poem is satirizing that >> position, partly *through* the silliness and clunkiness of its cliched >> diction and prosody. One more quatrain and one would expect to start >> hearing about welfare queens. So, as I said, not a poem I'd want to >> justify Mullen's NBA candidacy with, but rather more layered than others >> have been suggesting. (Unless I'm misreading *you* . . .) >> >> The effects in *Muse & Drudge* are cumulative rather than local, so >> it's hard to communicate its pleasures (for those of us who feel there >> are indeed pleasures there) by brief quotation. The book works like a >> kind of poetic pinball machine, references and sound bouncing off each >> other with increasingly dizzying speed as you read. But it's possible >> to suggest a kind of complexity (at the levels of cultural reference, >> historical analysis/awareness and word play combined) that I think Jim, >> for one, is not finding in the work. One could start with the fake >> epigraph from Callimachus, "fatten your animal for sacrifice, poet, but >> keep your muse slender"--which sets up a thematics of cultural norms >> surrounding the (especially black) female body, notions of beauty, >> slenderness vs. heaviness, etc. that runs right through the book. Then >> we go to the first stanza: >> >> Sapphire's lyre styles >> plucked eyebrows >> bow lips and legs >> whose lives are lonely too >> >> The sound play can seem somewhat "obvious" at some level, I suppose, >> but it's also quite pleasurably dense, to me, and covers quite a range: >> the alliteration, assonance, internal rhyme, eye rhyme, the quick slip >> into a traditional metric in the last line. In line 1 the black woman >> in "Amos and Andy" (Sapphire), one stereotype of the black female, meets >> Sappho via the title of Diane Rayor's translations of Sappho, *Sappho's >> Lyre.* The phrase *Bow lips* splice the woman putting on lipstick to >> make her mouth look like Cupid's bow with the musical bow used for the >> violin that is also lurking behind the "plucked" of line 2, while we >> also have another stringed instrument more overtly present, the "lyre" >> of line 1 (with its homophone "liar" raising issues of poetic ("lyric") >> truth, authenticity, etc.). And so on. This isn't even the densest >> stanza in the book, not by quite a way. No time for more, but just to >> conclude by proposing that this quatrain introduces some major motifs of >> the book--stereotypes of black women, different kinds of music, female >> body image, images of the poet and questions of what we mean by >> "lyric"--efficiently, playfully, wittily, and at the level of sound, >> pleasureably. >> >> And I'd add for anyone who might want to argue "how could any 'regular' >> reader get all that out of that stanza," that I've taught M & D and >> *Trimmings* for some years to all levels of student from sophomore to >> advanced graduate and to English-as-a-second-language speakers >> (admittedly, sophisticated ones, non-American English-speaking >> academics) and most of those readers have loved the work. No-one gets >> everything, but they all seem to find they get something: which is how, >> according to Mullen herself, she designed *Muse & Drudge*. >> >> OK, more than enough for now. >> > Alan, I did praise two out of three poems posted here. Now you > want me to see Ms. Liberty as a better poem than it reads. > But I can't go there, I'm afraid, despite your well-put points. I guess > it gets down to the intention, for me. Intentionally writing bad poetry, > even if the doggerel is coming from the mouth of a fictional speaker/persona, > still begs the question, What's the point? It's akin to the mimetic fallacy, > for me: If I'm going to write a poem dealing with my boredom, I shouldn't > write a dreadfully boring poem. The effect of the Bernstein poems, if > they are the ones I read in APR about 7 years ago, were similar. Bad > formal poetry mimicking bad formal poetry...I don't get why this worth > my effort? I thought parody was supposed to play off from the source > material...to trump the source material, in a certain way, with its > wit or satirical bite. > I do read too earnestly at times...a bad habit when dealing with postmo > lit....but doesn't the premise of the poem only work if once Ms. Liberty > was more welcoming?...did carry the torch for her huddled masses? > Can the poet/spaeker have it both ways? > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Jim Finnegan's reaction mirrors my own, so I'll let his remarks stand for mine, too. Paul Lake From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon Oct 21 13:24:50 2002 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 13:24:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently on the blog In-Reply-To: <200210211601.g9LG1B618898@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000301c27926$c717d060$db42c143@Dell> Jena Osman on Chain Performance poetry & the problems of historical memory Performance poetry on the page Short Fuse: The Global Anthology of New Fusion Poetry The problem of succession for bookstores & publishers Dialects in American English Masters of vocabulary: Forrest Gander & H.D. http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From Cadaly at aol.com Mon Oct 21 14:39:16 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:39:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently on the blog Message-ID: <199.f494c0b.2ae5a3d4@aol.com> I skimmed the reviews of the performance poetry triple review, and wondered -- Penn Kemp's sound work and Adeena's (which is directly related to her study of Canadian sound poets, linguistics, semiotics, and any number of other things) DOES relate to Steve McCaffrey & the Four Horsemen. I don't find that Adeena's page work is lacking anything -- I think you can tell pretty exactly know what it sounds like from reading it -- does she have performance pieces I have not seen in writing? (Probably, but I do have six of her books). Also, since this goes back to the sound in Mullen, partially, and the discussion of form, what about Penn Kemp? http://www.library.utoronto.ca/canpoetry/kemp/media.htm Other than the references to eastern religion, meditation / breathing, there's really not a way to associate Penn Kemp's devotion to multi-track recording of her voice in the background to her reading of precisely the words in the foreground. So is this a poem "set to" a sound poem? For example, "deep" "in" "deepen" and "pen" repeat under "Night Orchestra", then a strain of Tibetan music comes in when it's mentioned, and there are animal sounds at the end. Night Orchestra Deep in summer stillness, an electric hum of air conditioner in B flat flat monotone entrains my body ? ? ? ? ? ? ? monotonous.Heat produced to cool my neighbours thrums the outside air, heats up our collective night.Mechanical multitudes self-replicate in chorus, relentless fridge and clock.The only spell breaker is a tape of Tibetan chant. Deep harmonic overtones conjure a resonance, disturb the sine waves.Sleepless in the Beaches, I resist the single sound as Blake deplores single vision and Newton's sleep.The sound of the perpetual twentieth century colonizing our future with a dominant beat, sales pitched for comfort, con- venience, reliance on appliance.The pity is not that the century is winding to a close but that it's whining on and onSomewhere beyond the pervasive rattle, waves break on the shore. Species diversify. Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Tue Oct 22 01:38:32 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 00:38:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality In-Reply-To: <014c01c275f6$f439f9c0$45864cca@JROSS2> References: <20021016114958.33975.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com> <014c01c275f6$f439f9c0$45864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: > Zan: Leave Jeff alone. She's just trying to make her views clear. Of course, she understands that when I say she I also mean he (that little word inside of "she") :) ellen > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jeff Newberry >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:49 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality > >Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm >not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient. > >Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that >sort of stuff. > >I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a >choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use. > >Cheers, > >Jeff Newberry > > ganesha wrote: > >Jeff, > >My point is what you said below re, > >"My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop >all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be >offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have >nothing to do with one another." > >They bloody well do! > >Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for >one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin >with. > >And >femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just >such issues of pronouns. > >Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jeff Newberry >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality > >Zan, > >Of course it is. Point? > >Jeff Newberry > > ganesha <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au> wrote: > >Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how >gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male >students who just don't see what I mean. . > >Zan > > > > > >Do you Yahoo!? >Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more >faith.yahoo.com -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Tue Oct 22 02:04:30 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:04:30 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality References: <20021016114958.33975.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com><014c01c275f6$f439f9c0$45864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <02e401c27990$e7c14610$79864cca@JROSS2> Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and SexualityOkay -- will leave Jeff to her journal writing. Not sure I want to read anything else she has written or intends to write, anyway. AND must get back to the odious thesis. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: ellen smith To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 1:38 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan: Leave Jeff alone. She's just trying to make her views clear. Of course, she understands that when I say she I also mean he (that little word inside of "she") :) ellen ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient. Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that sort of stuff. I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, My point is what you said below re, "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another." They bloody well do! Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin with. And femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just such issues of pronouns. Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 22 07:52:22 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 04:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality In-Reply-To: <02e401c27990$e7c14610$79864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <20021022115222.88278.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Again--typical. I backchannel you for dialogue, and you childishly dismiss my comments. Applying a feminine pronoune to me simply doesn't make sense. I wouldn't appy a masculine pronoun to you. You simply don't get it, do you? Sidestep the issue all you like. I have some "journals" to write, whatever that means. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote:BLOCKQUOTE { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px}DL { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px}UL { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px}OL { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px}LI { PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px}Okay -- will leave Jeff to her journal writing. Not sure I want to read anything else she has written or intends to write, anyway. AND must get back to the odious thesis. Zan----- Original Message ----- From: ellen smith To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 1:38 PMSubject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan: Leave Jeff alone. She's just trying to make her views clear. Of course, she understands that when I say she I also mean he (that little word inside of "she") :)ellen ----- Original Message -----From: Jeff NewberryTo: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduSent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:49 PMSubject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient. Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that sort of stuff. I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, My point is what you said below re, "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another." They bloody well do!Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin with.And femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just such issues of pronouns. Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) ----- Original Message -----From: Jeff NewberryTo: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduSent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PMSubject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com -- --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Oct 22 09:16:05 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 09:16:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New New Yorker fiction Editor In-Reply-To: References: <014c01c275f6$f439f9c0$45864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <3DB51755.16245.299A98@localhost> The Gatekeeper for Literature Changes at New Yorker By DAVID CARR and DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK For decades, the fiction editor of The New Yorker has controlled the velvet rope at the gateway to literary stardom, welcoming a fortunate few into the prestigious inner circle of short story writers and a career of lucrative book contracts. Today, writers and agents will begin lining up before a new sentry at the gates of The New Yorker's pages. Deborah Treisman, a 32-year-old prodigy little known outside the literary world, will now be charged with telling writers, from wishful creative writing students to the likes of John Updike and Alice Munro, whether their short-story submission meets her standards. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/21/business/media/21MAG.html Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Oct 22 10:41:58 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:41:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pomo discourse by others: Alan Sondheim, "Interrogation" Message-ID: Interrogation Why did you go on your wild crime spree? . . . lethargy . . . Who's responsible for the three bodies which have been dropped in the creek? . . . everyone was exhausted. there was nothing to live for anymore . . . Do you feel guilty over your terrible crimes? . . . your question doesn't mean anything to me . . . Well let me phrase it another way. Do you feel repentant over your terrible crimes? . . . I don't understand what crimes you mean . . . What are you going to do now? . . . I'm trying to learn to talk less . . . What's the state of your health? . . . that didn't have anything to do with it . . . Next of kin? . . . yes, next of kin . . . So I would like you to sum up: How do you think things are for you at the moment? . . . I feel very sluggish in the morning . . . --Alan Sondheim fr. *Disorders of the Real* (Barrytown, New York: Station Hill Press, 1988) Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Oct 22 11:42:30 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 10:42:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Poems Message-ID: <200210221541.g9MFfVfq034440@mx3.mx.voyager.net> Not having given any book reports for a while, I'd like to put in a good word for Garrison Keillor's new anthology *Good Poems*, a selection of poems he has read for the past several years on his public radio spot, The Writer's Almanac. If you haven't heard that spot, and think of Keillor primarily as a folksy comedian with a tendency toward schmaltz, you may be surprised to see how interesting a book this is. Keillor is unafraid of sentiment, it's true, but the book is not schmaltz. I imagine that discussion on a list such as this will be drawn inevitably to notice his exclusions and limitations--and they are notable, and numerous--but I am drawn to mention how apt his placid title is. Keillor has collected a range of good poems that read well aloud, from the odd folk or blues lyric to poems by the likes of Kenneth Rexroth, Frank O'Hara, Denise Levertov, Hayden Carruth, Charles Bukowski, Wendell Berry, Baron Wormser, Charles Simic, Elizabeth Bishop, Linda Pastan, Frederick Morgan, Linda Gregg, Howard Nemerov, Gerald Stern, Maxine Kumin, Erica Jong, Jane Hirshfield, R. S. Thomas, Kay Ryan, Donald Justice, Tom Disch, Li-Young Lee, Robert Hayden, and May Swenson--in other words, a somewhat motley grouping of mainstreamers. This might be an excellent anthology to give to those people who aren't sure that they like poetry, or to use in an introductory class. Spicing this mostly contemporary, mainly American collection are pieces by Shakespeare, Clare, Yeats, Dickinson, Longfellow, Frost, Stevens, Langston Hughes, Edna St. Vincent Millay, and other canonical or at least familiar figures. Absent, for reasons Keillor's spiky introduction makes clear, are (for example), Eliot, Pound, Moore, Ginsberg, Ashbery, Albert Goldbarth, Jorie Graham, C. D. Wright, and indeed all of the various experimental wings of contemporary poetics. Not even any Creeley or Duncan. Very little metapoetry. Absent for no clear reason (they would fit perfectly in the mix) are any number of other figures, from Gwendolyn Brooks through Kenneth Koch or Andrew Hudgins--but every anthology is ultimately a matter of taste, of course. I do wonder why Keillor, whose focus is so strongly on the oral dimension of poetry, has chosen rather stingily from recent poets exploring "spoken word" and such; and it must be said that the book is not exactly overflowing with minority writers. I would have enjoyed some Etheridge Knight, Julia Alvarez, Lucille Clifton, Sandra Cisneros, Gary Soto, Elizabeth Alexander, Linda Hogan, et al.--all of whom would be comfortable in this company. In his introduction Keillor speaks up for the enduring value of the narrative impulse, in lyrics no less than story poems, and is generally quite comfortable with Dana Gioia's critique of contemporary poetry. (Gioia himself is of course included, as is our current poet laureate.) That preference for story marks a limitation, obviously, but also a strength, in my view. Like Czeslaw Milosz's *A Book of Luminous Things*, which it in some aspects resembles, this book is divided into loosely thematic sections: O Lord, A Day, Music, Scenes, Lovers, etc. As you might expect from Keillor, though, it is also more open to so-called light verse than most anthologies. Ultimately, for me it's refreshing to find, amid the familiar, strong poets like C. G. Hanzlicek, Jennifer Michael Hecht, Louis Jenkins, David Budbill, Kate Barnes, David Huddle, and others who don't exactly dominate other anthologies. Personally, I plan to investigate further the work of Mark Irwin, Joyce Sutphen, and others new to me. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From chryss.yost at verizon.net Tue Oct 22 11:44:34 2002 From: chryss.yost at verizon.net (Chryss Yost) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:44:34 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nosferatu is coming to Chattanooga Message-ID: (Libretto by Dana Gioia) Looking for something a little different at Halloween weekend this year? Why sit at home watching old horror flicks you have seen countless times when you can meet a vampyre in the flesh? On November 1st and 3rd, you can do just that, by seeing Scenes from Nosferatu at the UTC Fine Arts Center. Newlyweds Eric and Ellen live in near poverty in 19th Century Germany. Eric travels to Hungary to the home of Count Orlock, of an ancient ruling family. Eric is unaware that Count Orlock is an ancient monarch, hundreds of years old, undead, nosferatu. The prince of darkness is unleashed upon an unsuspecting world. Orlock sails to Eric and Ellen?s home of Wisborg, where he begins to drain the city of life. While everyone else believes the strange malady to be a plague, Ellen alone understands the truth, that a vampire has come to Wisborg, and that she is his ultimate prey. Only the faith and self-sacrifice of this brave woman can hope to save the city from annihilation by this evil incarnate. Nosferatu, based upon the 1922 film by F. W. Murnau, resets the classic Dracula story in Germany. Composer Alva Henderson and poet-lyricist Dana Gioia, moved by the poignancy of the story and the strength of the central character, Ellen, crafted a modern romantic opera around a subject not previously treated by the genre. Coloratura soprano Susan Gundunas (Ellen) is joined by baritone John Kramar (Orlock) and tenor Robert McPherson (tenor) in this production mounted by the UTC Fine Arts Center. Local artists Rebecca St. Goar, Kim Thompson and Michael Kull also sing supporting roles. Choral selections will be performed by members of the UTC Opera Chorus, under the direction of Jan Cochrane, and UTC Chamber Singers, directed by Holmberg professor Roland Carter. Musical accompaniment is provided by UTC Music Departmen and Cadek Conservatory faculty and members of Chattanooga Symphony and Opera Association. Composer Henderson conducts, and lyricist Gioia offers selective narration. Henderson, composer of such operas as Medea, The Last Leaf, Achilles and West of Washington Square, and Gioia, renowned poet and critical essayist: Can Poetry Matter? and Interrogations at Noon, began work on Nosferatu in the mid-Nineties. The piece has showcased at several locations, including Mercer University and the 1998 Western Slope Music Festival. Come experience this time-honored tale of self-sacrifice and salvation, meet the performers and the creators. For tickets, call 423-425-4269 or visit the Fine Arts Center website at www.utc.edu/finearts. Student, senior, UTC staff, alumni and group discounts are available. As Bela Lugosi would say, "Your vill is strong...come...here." And don't forget your Transylvanian accent. Kim Edward Renz University of Tennessee at Chattanooga Fine Arts Center, Department 1351 615 McCallie Avenue Chattanooga, Tennessee 37403 423-425-4379 Office 423-425-5249 Facsimile Kim-Renz at utc.edu Visit Our Web Site at www.utc.edu/finearts From JforJames at aol.com Tue Oct 22 19:55:57 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:55:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Mullen Message-ID: <25.2fa3a9ff.2ae73f8d@aol.com> I can't remember exactly how we got on this subject but it was a lovely ramble. I thank those who contributed their insights to the poems posted and her books...she is certainly a poet to be reckoned with. Finnegan From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Oct 23 00:13:25 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:13:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Message-ID: <32.2f099a44.2ae77be5@cs.com> Everyone, please check Wednesday's New York Times for an important announcement. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Oct 23 00:30:12 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 23:30:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia Message-ID: <200210230429.g9N4TDiL029254@mx15.mx.voyager.net> Here's the start of the story for those who can't wait till tomorrow. Mighty interesting. ____________________________ The poet, critic and anthologist Dana Gioia has emerged as the leading candidate to become the next chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts, according to sources close to the process. The previous chairman of that agency, Michael P. Hammond, died in January after just a week in the post. Mr. Gioia's nomination, which must be confirmed by the Senate, is expected to be announced by President Bush in about two weeks, a government official said. Because of the endowment's history as a lightning rod for impassioned debates about the direction of culture in the country and the government's role in financing it, the chairmanship is a sensitive post that draws far more attention than other positions with influence over annual budgets far larger than the endowment's $115 million. Reached by telephone, Mr. Gioia would confirm only that he was being considered. "Yes, I have been talking to the White House about this post," he said. "I can't say anything more than that because it would be inappropriate at this point. I am not a nominee." --NYTimes 10/23/02 ___________________________ ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= ---------- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Date: Tue, Oct 22, 2002, 11:13 PM Everyone, please check Wednesday's New York Times for an important announcement. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chryss at silcom.com Wed Oct 23 00:28:14 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:28:14 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia In-Reply-To: <32.2f099a44.2ae77be5@cs.com> Message-ID: It?s online already. On 10/22/02 9:13 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Everyone, please check Wednesday's New York Times for an important > announcement. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chryss at silcom.com Wed Oct 23 00:28:43 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:28:43 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia In-Reply-To: <32.2f099a44.2ae77be5@cs.com> Message-ID: And here?s the link http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/23/arts/23CHAI.html On 10/22/02 9:13 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Everyone, please check Wednesday's New York Times for an important > announcement. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Oct 23 01:14:19 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:14:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia References: <200210230429.g9N4TDiL029254@mx15.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <004201c27a53$0b0beb80$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Re: GioiaWell, I think it's good news. Congrats to D.G.!!! Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 12:30 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia Here's the start of the story for those who can't wait till tomorrow. Mighty interesting. ____________________________ The poet, critic and anthologist Dana Gioia has emerged as the leading candidate to become the next chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts, according to sources close to the process. The previous chairman of that agency, Michael P. Hammond, died in January after just a week in the post. Mr. Gioia's nomination, which must be confirmed by the Senate, is expected to be announced by President Bush in about two weeks, a government official said. Because of the endowment's history as a lightning rod for impassioned debates about the direction of culture in the country and the government's role in financing it, the chairmanship is a sensitive post that draws far more attention than other positions with influence over annual budgets far larger than the endowment's $115 million. Reached by telephone, Mr. Gioia would confirm only that he was being considered. "Yes, I have been talking to the White House about this post," he said. "I can't say anything more than that because it would be inappropriate at this point. I am not a nominee." --NYTimes 10/23/02 ___________________________ ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= ---------- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Date: Tue, Oct 22, 2002, 11:13 PM Everyone, please check Wednesday's New York Times for an important announcement. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Oct 23 01:22:26 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:22:26 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality References: <20021022115222.88278.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006b01c27a54$30a92c30$6f864cca@JROSS2> I saw no such backchannel, Jeff. I've been trying to engage you in sensible dialogue for some time, but would say it has been YOU who has refused to step outside the box you live/think in ... childishly, as you have said of me. (Does this constitute an insult, you reckon?) Anyway, I sent a rather long email to Tony stating my position. Please refer to that. As to naming you with a femme pronoun, I was merely entering into the spirit of the email from Ellen asking me to desist from plaguing you. Apparently you missed the point of same. The "journal" reference is to your insult regarding people who don't consider an audience when writing -- such as me. This aspect of the poetry game is one of the "work" side of writing done when attempting to find a publisher for material, not when I'm writing a piece and then editing it. You said that you kept a journal for this type of thing. Okay, then? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Again--typical. I backchannel you for dialogue, and you childishly dismiss my comments. Applying a feminine pronoune to me simply doesn't make sense. I wouldn't appy a masculine pronoun to you. You simply don't get it, do you? Sidestep the issue all you like. I have some "journals" to write, whatever that means. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Okay -- will leave Jeff to her journal writing. Not sure I want to read anything else she has written or intends to write, anyway. AND must get back to the odious thesis. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: ellen smith To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 1:38 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan: Leave Jeff alone. She's just trying to make her views clear. Of course, she understands that when I say she I also mean he (that little word inside of "she") :) ellen ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient. Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that sort of stuff. I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, My point is what you said below re, "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another." They bloody well do! Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin with. And femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just such issues of pronouns. Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at clipper.net Wed Oct 23 04:00:58 2002 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 01:00:58 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality References: <20021022115222.88278.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> <006b01c27a54$30a92c30$6f864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <009b01c27a6a$ed1825e0$68acefd8@0021936706> Zan, I didn't receive your email. Could you please resend it? I've been having trouble with this address, so you might try sending it to bobnewhartfan at yahoo.com. Thanks very much, Tony *** "The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible." Emily Dickinson *** "I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth century." C. Montgomery Burns *** "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be better left alone." Kenneth Koch *** ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker" ----- Original Message ----- From: ganesha To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality I saw no such backchannel, Jeff. I've been trying to engage you in sensible dialogue for some time, but would say it has been YOU who has refused to step outside the box you live/think in ... childishly, as you have said of me. (Does this constitute an insult, you reckon?) Anyway, I sent a rather long email to Tony stating my position. Please refer to that. As to naming you with a femme pronoun, I was merely entering into the spirit of the email from Ellen asking me to desist from plaguing you. Apparently you missed the point of same. The "journal" reference is to your insult regarding people who don't consider an audience when writing -- such as me. This aspect of the poetry game is one of the "work" side of writing done when attempting to find a publisher for material, not when I'm writing a piece and then editing it. You said that you kept a journal for this type of thing. Okay, then? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Again--typical. I backchannel you for dialogue, and you childishly dismiss my comments. Applying a feminine pronoune to me simply doesn't make sense. I wouldn't appy a masculine pronoun to you. You simply don't get it, do you? Sidestep the issue all you like. I have some "journals" to write, whatever that means. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Okay -- will leave Jeff to her journal writing. Not sure I want to read anything else she has written or intends to write, anyway. AND must get back to the odious thesis. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: ellen smith To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 1:38 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan: Leave Jeff alone. She's just trying to make her views clear. Of course, she understands that when I say she I also mean he (that little word inside of "she") :) ellen ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Still not seeing a point. Yes, language is sexist. So what? I'm not discriminating against anybody, and pronouns aren't sentient. Oh, and write for yourself all you want--I have a journal for that sort of stuff. I have no problem with feminine pronouns, so when a writer makes a choice, it's up to her what pronouns she wants to use. Cheers, Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, My point is what you said below re, "My point is that when I write for a reader, I'm not going to drop all pronoun references or change them to plurals so *he* won't be offended by my gender bias. Pronouns and sexual discrimination have nothing to do with one another." They bloody well do! Anyway, why would anyone write for a reader? One writes poetry for one's self, THEN finds an audience ... if one wants one to begin with. And femmes have been scrupulous for decades (and still are) about just such issues of pronouns. Zan (restraining herself from being childish and insulting) ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Newberry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:06 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pronouns and Sexuality Zan, Of course it is. Point? Jeff Newberry ganesha wrote: Jeff, if you examine English closely, you'll soon realise just how gender biased it is. I've often had this discussion with male students who just don't see what I mean. . Zan -------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 23 06:41:01 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:41:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <014c01c275f6$f439f9c0$45864cca@JROSS2> <3DB51755.16245.299A98@localhost> Message-ID: <00e701c27a80$ae91f9c0$1153fea9@j1c1k6> I doubt that even Gioia can make the NEA more of an enemy of serious art than it already is. --Bob G. From ron.silliman at verizon.net Wed Oct 23 06:50:43 2002 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 06:50:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dana Gioia to run NEA In-Reply-To: <200210230521.g9N5L2603328@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000901c27a82$0d35ec10$e306c143@Dell> October 23, 2002 Poet a Contender to Run Federal Arts Agency By ROBIN POGREBIN The poet, critic and anthologist Dana Gioia has emerged as the leading candidate to become the next chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts, according to sources close to the process. The previous chairman of that agency, Michael P. Hammond, died in January after just a week in the post. Mr. Gioia's nomination, which must be confirmed by the Senate, is expected to be announced by President Bush in about two weeks, a government official said. Because of the endowment's history as a lightning rod for impassioned debates about the direction of culture in the country and the government's role in financing it, the chairmanship is a sensitive post that draws far more attention than other positions with influence over annual budgets far larger than the endowment's $115 million. Reached by telephone, Mr. Gioia would confirm only that he was being considered. "Yes, I have been talking to the White House about this post," he said. "I can't say anything more than that because it would be inappropriate at this point. I am not a nominee." Mr. Gioia (pronounced JOY-a), 51, has published three books of poetry: "Daily Horoscope" (1986), "The Gods of Winter" (1991) and "Interrogations at Noon" (2001), which won the American Book Award in May. He is well known as someone who has revived rhyme and meter, though he also writes in free verse. He was widely recognized for his essay "Can Poetry Matter?," which appeared in The Atlantic in 1991. In the essay, Mr. Gioia argued that a clubby academic subculture that had grown up around poetry was preventing it from being widely available to the mainstream. The essay prompted considerable debate and was included in Mr. Gioia's 1992 collection of essays, "Can Poetry Matter?: Essays on Poetry and American Culture," which was selected by Publishers Weekly as one of its Best Books of 1992 and became a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle award. Mr. Gioia's poems, translations, essays and reviews have also appeared in The New Yorker, The Washington Post Book World and The New York Times Book Review. He is also a longtime commentator on American culture and literature for BBC Radio, for which he has done programs on Robert Frost and Shakespeare, among others. Before becoming a full-time writer in 1992, Mr. Gioia spent 15 years in the business world, where he became a vice president of General Foods - now part of Kraft - most of the time in White Plains, N.Y. Reared in Hawthorne, Calif., an industrial section of Los Angeles County, Mr. Gioia received a bachelor's degree in English from Stanford University, where he returned to earn a master's degree in business administration. He also earned a master's in comparative literature at Harvard University, where he studied with the poets Robert Fitzgerald and Elizabeth Bishop. Mr. Gioia originally intended to be a composer. He is the classical music critic for San Francisco magazine and wrote the libretto for an opera, "Nosferatu," with the composer Alva Henderson; the piece is to have two concert presentations next month in Chattanooga, Tenn. Mr. Gioia has taught as a visiting writer at Colorado College, Johns Hopkins University and Wesleyan University, among other institutions. He is also vice president of the Poetry Society of America. He lives in Sonoma County in California with his wife, Mary, and two sons, ages 9 and 13. Even without a permanent chairman, recent organizational changes at the National Endowment for the Arts have concerned some arts groups and members of Congress, with memories of "culture wars" battles clearly in the background. Eileen C. Mason, the endowment's acting chairwoman, announced that program directors who oversee the agency's various disciplines, like literature and folk art, will become subordinate to two directors, one who was in charge of classical music, the other overseeing museums. Officials of arts groups that promote programs involving immigrant culture and other less entrenched art forms worried that the demotion of those program directors signaled a shift away from some nontraditional arts toward more mainstream creative areas and might ultimately influence financing. Ms. Mason insisted that the organizational changes would not affect the kinds of art that the agency supported. "There is absolutely no intention to favor one discipline over another," she said in an interview. But members of Congress have asked endowment officials to explain the reasons for the changes. Representative Louise M. Slaughter, Democrat of New York and chairwoman of the Congressional Arts Caucus, said, "We asked Eileen Mason to come in." She added, "What we're worried about is what is going on behind the scenes." Two former endowment officials said that it was Ann Guthrie Hingston, the agency's White House and Congressional liaison, who tried in December to delay approval of a grant for a California production of "Homebody/Kabul," Tony Kushner's play about a British woman who disappears in Taliban-era Afghanistan. The grant was ultimately approved. Ms. Hingston previously served as a speechwriter for President Ronald Reagan and a national program director for the Best Friends Foundation, a privately funded program that encourages abstinence in low-income girls. Ms. Hingston did not return calls seeking comment. From cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 23 08:36:47 2002 From: cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net (cindymonroe) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:36:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] gioia Message-ID: <002101c27a90$e1594b00$27f13ccc@net> Another article about Gioia in the Washington Post today: "Poet Dana Gioia to Be Named NEA Chairman" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2589-2002Oct22.html From mandolin at mac.com Wed Oct 23 11:09:14 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA Message-ID: <7950867.1035385754698.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> I think it's a wonderful thing, and that, if he is appointed, he will improve the NEA's support of serious art--including poetry On Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002, at 06:41AM, Bob Grumman wrote: >I doubt that even Gioia can make the NEA more of an enemy of serious art >than it already is. > >--Bob G. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From TerryP17 at aol.com Wed Oct 23 11:31:02 2002 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 11:31:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia Message-ID: <0FBB7A2D.37DADD13.0083014E@aol.com> Re: The Gioia nomination to NEA. Much more thorough article in the Washington Post, Sam, sourced from inside the administration. The nomination is a done deal, and will be announced later this week, perhaps early next, knowing Washington. This will be a slow boil. It requires Senate confirmation and the Senate is occupied with more important things right now, like getting their swell jobs back for 6 more years. And if the Dems retain control, this could get uncomfortable. It is always a contentious nomination. --Terry Ponick From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 23 11:38:16 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 11:38:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Eclipse with Object" Message-ID: Eclipse with Object There is a spectacle and something is added to history. It has as its object an indiscretion: old age, a gun, the prevention of sleep. I am placed in its stead and the requisite shadow is yours. It casts across me, a violent coat. It seems I fit into its sleeve. So the body wanders. Sometime it goes where light does not reach. You recall how they moved in the moon dust? *Hop, hop.* What they said to us from that distance was stupid. They did not say *I love you* for example. The spectacle has been placed in my room. Can you hear its episode trailing, pretending to be a thing with variegated wings? Do you know the name of this thing? It is a rubbing from an image. The subject of the image is that which trespasses. You are invited to watch. The body in complete dark casting nothing back. The thing turns and flicks open. --Ann Lauterbach fr. *If in Time: Selected Poems, 1975-2000* (New York: Penguin Poets, 2001) Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Oct 23 11:59:31 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:59:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA Message-ID: Dana Gioia is not only seriously committed to and knowledgeable about poetry, but about music as well. He trained for years to be a composer until he realized he didn't have the talent to reach the level he'd need. A serious, broad-minded (despite his occasional polemics), and fair critic with a real life-long commitment to poetry. His nomination will be a good thing for the arts--especially the literary arts--in America. Paul Lake From chryss at silcom.com Wed Oct 23 12:24:00 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:24:00 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I feel it's a great thing just to have an ARTIST in the position. Most of the former chairs have come out of the government or military--Washington people, not arts people. This position requires senate approval, so you might show your support by writing or emailing your senator now. With all the war and sniper stuff they're worried about, let's not let them forget about the arts. C. On 10/23/02 8:59 AM, Paul Lake wrote: > Dana Gioia is not only seriously committed to and knowledgeable about > poetry, but about music as well. He trained for years to be a composer until > he realized he didn't have the talent to reach the level he'd need. A > serious, broad-minded (despite his occasional polemics), and fair critic > with a real life-long commitment to poetry. His nomination will be a good > thing for the arts--especially the literary arts--in America. > > Paul Lake > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From joseph.lucia at villanova.edu Wed Oct 23 12:38:49 2002 From: joseph.lucia at villanova.edu (Joseph Lucia) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:38:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: Message-ID: <3DB6D099.2CD1852F@villanova.edu> I have to agree with both Paul and Chryss. Whatever our factionalism in poetry circles, one has to acknowledge Gioia's seriousness and even his fair-mindedness about his own art form and, in all likelihood, about creative practice in other domains. I'm not bothered that he takes a "conservative" stance on aesthetic matters. At least he's thoughtful and committed, and sometimes quite open to work outside of his own aesthetic values. I think in that connection of the very positive introduction he wrote for Jack Foley's O Powerful Western Star, in which he clearly indicates an appreciation for formalisms beyond the realm of "traditional" metrics (however those are defined). That may not be enough for some, but I think it's an indicator of some broadness of perspective. We can of course argue if that broadness equates to a narrow crack in the wall, a garage door, or an open field. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mandolin at mac.com Wed Oct 23 12:53:23 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA Message-ID: <7863928.1035392003607.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> I should clarify this. Gioia will bring to the position a seriuous appreciation and knowledge of poetry and music--and of money and organization. The first will be good for the visibility of poetry--whatever one thinks of Gioia's poetry--and the second should be invaluable in preserving and perhaps expanding the funding of the NEA. I have met Gioia, but just barely. I know nothing of his politics. I like some of his poetry quite a lot and am bored by some of it; I thoroughly enjoyed the piece of Nosferatu I've seen; and I think the debate started by his "Can poetry Matter?" was very valuable, whether or not the implications of the essay are sustainable. On Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002, at 11:09AM, Michael Snider wrote: >I think it's a wonderful thing, and that, if he is appointed, he will improve the NEA's support of serious art--including poetry > > >On Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002, at 06:41AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >>I doubt that even Gioia can make the NEA more of an enemy of serious art >>than it already is. >> >>--Bob G. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 23 12:55:51 2002 From: cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net (cindymonroe) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:55:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Message-ID: <005101c27ab5$12255160$45153ccc@net> I believe that Gioia would be very good in the job. The corporate experience will be very helpful. I sent messages to my senators encouraging them to vote for his confirmation. I'm wondering how he became the top choice, who offered his name up in the first place... Cindy M. From Cadaly at aol.com Wed Oct 23 14:26:04 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:26:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Eclipse with Object" Message-ID: <170.15fb8f46.2ae843bc@aol.com> bookcloseouts.com has this book for $4.00 Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 23 14:32:39 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:32:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Eclipse with Object" In-Reply-To: <170.15fb8f46.2ae843bc@aol.com> Message-ID: $2.99 actually, if tax and shipping aren't involved. The title btw is *If in Time*. Hal bookcloseouts.com has this book for $4.00 Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 23 16:08:41 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:08:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <7950867.1035385754698.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <003601c27acf$fbba3a60$98ddfea9@j1c1k6> > I think it's a wonderful thing, and that, if he is appointed, he will improve the NEA's support of serious art--including poetry I sincerely hope he at least gets it to start supporting serious art. I believe it did at one time. --Bob G. > On Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002, at 06:41AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >I doubt that even Gioia can make the NEA more of an enemy of serious art > >than it already is. > > > >--Bob G. > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Wed Oct 23 19:22:08 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:22:08 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia Message-ID: <159.1661d777.2ae88920@aol.com> In a message dated 10/23/02 11:32:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TerryP17 at aol.com writes: > . And if the Dems retain control, this could get uncomfortable. It is always > a contentious nomination. Terry, havn't the Elephantines been the ones most ready to crush the NEA? Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Wed Oct 23 19:52:00 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:52:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Well put Message-ID: <17d.10b10099.2ae89020@aol.com> He [Dylan Thomas] transcends his own personality, without his ever having written a line which is impersonal. Stephen Spender,"Greatness of Aim" From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 24 00:08:00 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:08:00 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Eclipse with Object" References: Message-ID: <000501c27b12$f5ad7a90$5b864cca@JROSS2> This posting is in the top ten favourites of mine. I intend to go right out and find this book and make it my own. It was delicious with coffee and croissants. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:38 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Eclipse with Object" > > Eclipse with Object > > There is a spectacle and something is added to history. > It has as its object an indiscretion: old age, a > gun, the prevention of sleep. > > I am placed in its stead > and the requisite shadow is yours. > It casts across me, a violent coat. > > It seems I fit into its sleeve. > So the body wanders. > Sometime it goes where light does not reach. > > You recall how they moved in the moon dust? *Hop, hop.* > What they said to us from that distance was stupid. > They did not say *I love you* for example. > > The spectacle has been placed in my room. > Can you hear its episode trailing, > pretending to be a thing with variegated wings? > > Do you know the name of this thing? > It is a rubbing from an image. > The subject of the image is that which trespasses. > > You are invited to watch. The body > in complete dark casting nothing back. > The thing turns and flicks open. > > --Ann Lauterbach > > fr. *If in Time: Selected Poems, 1975-2000* > (New York: Penguin Poets, 2001) > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 24 00:18:47 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:18:47 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <7950867.1035385754698.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> Message-ID: <006601c27b14$746cb980$5b864cca@JROSS2> What would ya'll consider "serious art" to be? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Snider" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 11:09 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > I think it's a wonderful thing, and that, if he is appointed, he will improve the NEA's support of serious art--including poetry > > > On Wednesday, Oct 23, 2002, at 06:41AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >I doubt that even Gioia can make the NEA more of an enemy of serious art > >than it already is. > > > >--Bob G. > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Oct 24 02:34:34 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 01:34:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Defense of Poetry -- Gabriel Gudding Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021024013317.015e51c0@mail.ilstu.edu> A publisher is selling a book. A Defense of Poetry (Pitt Poetry Series, Nov 2002) by Gabriel Gudding Items found in book: violence, some inmates hidden in a wig, a monolog by Ronald Reagan, letters to the man who stole my butt, 15-hundred word insult poem to *Louis Cabri, rifle assault on the mainstream/experimental dichotomy, on opponents to both narrative poetry and language poetry, dismissal of the state of Oklahoma. Robert Duncan's strabismus. Gabriel Gudding was born and raised in Minnesota, raised some more in Washington state, and resides in Illinois where he teaches poetics and creative writing at Illinois State University (home of Dalkey Archive). He's won awards. His partner, Mairead Byrne, lives in Providence, RI, where she teaches literature and poetry writing at the Rhode Island School of Design. Gabe's interests include American "new writing," aka experimental and avant-garde poetries and poetics, theories of comedy, contemporary poetry by women, the cultural formation of taste, and teaching in prisons. He is the author of A Defense of Poetry (Pitt Poetry Series, University of Pittsburgh Press, 2002). His essays, poems and short fiction appear in The Journal of the History of Ideas, VeRT, The American Poetry Review, The Nation, L'Bourgeozine, Fence, and elsewhere. The title poem, "A Defense of Poetry," is forthcoming in Great American Prose Poems: From Poe to the Present, Scribner 2003, edited by David Lehman. *insert your name here http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html http://www.aprweb.org/issues/mar01/gudding.html http://www.saltonstall.org/echap3/gudding1.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 24 06:35:37 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 06:35:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <7950867.1035385754698.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <006601c27b14$746cb980$5b864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <006101c27b49$18280460$bc9dfea9@j1c1k6> > What would ya'll consider "serious art" to be? > > Zan Why, Zan, you know my answer to that: the art *I* do, and nothing else. Okay, real answer: All art is serious. But for poIemical purposes, I divide art into curated art, merchandised art and serious art. The NEA pays attention only to the first two. Actually, it doesn't even pay attention to those but to their curators and merchandisers--and, to less of an extent, the performers involved. Being a creative artist, I wouldn't mind at all if the NEA were abolished. Like all large-scale "arts-assisting" organizations in this country I know of, it does nothing but lower the morale of the most creative people in the arts, and increase the entrenchment of medioctities--and anti-artists. --Bob G. From mandolin at mac.com Thu Oct 24 06:54:41 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 06:54:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA In-Reply-To: <006601c27b14$746cb980$5b864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: You're quite right that it's a problematic category. NEA grants have been overtly politicized since the Reagan years, at least. Congress (especially its neocon culture warriors) has tried to eliminate the agency several times, and its response has been to take fewer chances with work that might upset Jesse Helms. That's not a serious way of thinking about art or artists. Gioia, I hope and believe, has a better chance than m ost else of restoring the agency's credibility in government and among artists. On Thursday, October 24, 2002, at 12:18 AM, ganesha wrote: > > What would ya'll consider "serious art" to be? From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Oct 24 08:49:32 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:49:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA In-Reply-To: <006601c27b14$746cb980$5b864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: Now you stop that, Zan. It hurts when I laugh too much. Hal "Imagination is more important than knowledge." --Albert Einstein Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { What would ya'll consider "serious art" to be? { { Zan From Thom424 at aol.com Thu Oct 24 09:50:39 2002 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:50:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Chronicle article: 10 Years After, Poetry Still Matters Message-ID: <1bd.11eefc59.2ae954af@aol.com> Sorry for the long post, but the CHRONICLE OF HIGHER EDUCATION is a subscription-based journal. Sending along the address/link wouldn't allow anyone access to the article. Since Gioia is in the news recently, I thought this might be of interest. Enjoy! Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN **************************************************************************** From THE CHRONICLE OF HIGHER EDUCATION, the issue dated September 27, 2002 10 Years After, Poetry Still Matters By JOHN PALATTELLA Ten years ago this fall, an executive who had managed the Jell-O account at General Foods published a collection of essays about American poetry. Its contents included a debunking of Robert Bly, a defense of Weldon Kees, an appreciation of Robinson Jeffers, and a clutch of short reviews. But one essay overshadowed all the others, and its opening paragraph was routinely quoted. "American poetry now belongs to a subculture," argued Dana Gioia in Can Poetry Matter? Essays on Poetry and American Culture. "No longer part of the mainstream of artistic and intellectual life, it has become the specialized occupation of a relatively small and isolated group. Little of the frenetic activity it generates ever reaches outside that closed group. As a class poets are not without cultural status. Like priests in a town of agnostics, they still command a certain residual prestige. But as individual artists they are almost invisible." Gioia was surely casting a backward glance at those excellent American poets (Mina Loy, Lorine Niedecker, Charles Reznikoff, and Jack Spicer, to name just a few) who were respected by their peers yet died with much of their work out of print or unpublished, wasn't he? Gioia pointed his finger at university-based creative-writing programs, which he compared to a pork-barrel agricultural concern: "Like subsidized farming that grows food no one wants, a poetry industry had been created to serve the interests of the producers and not the consumers." Gioia's charges hardly went unnoticed. When they first appeared, in a 1991 article in The Atlantic Monthly, the magazine received about 200 pieces of mail in response, a volume that matched the huge response to Dinesh D'Souza's article on illiberal education in March of that year. The book version of Can Poetry Matter? became a finalist for a National Book Critics Circle Award in criticism and received many favorable reviews, with one commentator adding a dollop of relevance by invoking the opening phrase of Marianne Moore's "Poetry": "I, too, dislike it." Some writers are still irritated by Gioia's argument. Now Graywolf Press has published a 10th-anniversary edition of Can Poetry Matter?, and Gioia has chosen to leave his text unrevised. He has added only a short introduction, mostly a reprise of a 1992 essay he published in Britain's Poetry Review. One can't help but wonder if the anniversary edition is commemorating not longevity but obsolescence, since certain developments over the last decade have turned the title essay's argument into a historical curiosity. One such development is the growth of spoken-word poetry. With contemporary origins reaching back to the founding of the Nuyorican Poets Cafe in New York City in 1974, spoken word spread rapidly during the 1990s, reviving popular interest in poetry in general and reinvigorating, to some extent, the art's vocal roots. As Gioia himself notes in his introduction, spoken word is but one example of the kind of literary activity that previously existed only in urban milieus and "is now found in hundreds of cities across the country." Another development is the Internet, which Gioia credits with fostering "an immense amount of activity -- from mainstream sites like Poetry Daily to more specialized online journals, literary home pages, and chat rooms." In some other respects, however, the title essay of Can Poetry Matter? still seems relevant, since several of the symptoms it describes have remained widespread. Gioia singles out The Morrow Anthology of Younger American Poets (1985) as an example of poetry's professionalization and insularity, claiming that the 800-page reader was less a literary collection than "a comprehensive directory of creative-writing teachers." The same could be said of Poetry 180, a poem-a-day syllabus for high-school students that the poet laureate Billy Collins began assembling this year (http://www.loc.gov/poetry/180). Collins has selected the poems from back issues of contemporary poetry journals stored in his attic; of the more than 100 poets whose work appears in Poetry 180, most have been educated or employed by creative-writing programs. Like the Morrow volume, Poetry 180 teems with specimens of what Donald Hall once labeled the "McPoem": a descriptive, anecdotal, and often-autobiographical piece of verse with a very narrow emotional and linguistic range. "To produce the McPoem, institutions must enforce patterns," Hall explained in "Poetry and Ambition" in 1983. "The McPoem is the product of the workshops of Hamburger University." Collins's own work is ruthlessly formulaic -- the typical item being an anecdotal, discursive poem about an event that revolves around a solipsist who is whimsical, timid, and occasionally impertinent -- so it's hardly a surprise that he has packed Poetry 180 with McPoems. Just as important, some changes in the poetry world have reinforced Gioia's argument. The most notable is that the experimental-poetry fringe is now a university-based operation as well, and no less formulaic. Its model product? The Verse-a-Matic, a messy contraption that, powered by philosophical worrying about the nature of language, slices and dices any discourse down to size and recombines it with other linguistic fragments into a novel poetic form, which of course is not to be mistaken for a poem. If you spend a little time today with the title essay of Can Poetry Matter?, however, you may begin to wonder what exactly the fuss was all about, and whether Gioia's thesis can be of any help in understanding how poetry is professionalized. You might even find the rest of the line from Marianne Moore's "Poetry" springing to mind: "there are things that are important beyond all this fiddle." One problem is that Gioia favors phrases like "decline in cultural importance," "most readers now assume," and "diminished stature," letting them hover free of time, place, circumstance, or definition. Similarly, analogies meant to be provocative are just bombastic. Take the comparison of creative-writing programs to government-subsidized farms. Since when, as Gioia suggests, has a poet's primary obligation been to serve the interests of consumers? I don't mean to imply that poets don't desire an audience. But isn't the first duty of all poets not to readers but to language, their own as well as their culture's? And would it be so terrible if the only readers of a poet's work at any one time were other poets, especially if those readers grasped, appreciated, and promoted the work? Some of Gioia's larger claims are just as dubious. It's certainly true that, as he writes, relative to other books "there is little coverage of poetry books or poets in the general press." But it doesn't necessarily follow that poetry doesn't matter much to "readers, publishers, or advertisers -- to any-one, that is, except other poets." The fog machine here is Gioia's decision to lump together the interests of readers with those of publishers and advertisers, and thereby to treat book reviews in the mass media as an accurate index of readers' interest in poetry. For decades, the staples of book-review sections have been pieces about the big-ticket items that publishers (both trade and university-press) hope will net a handsome return on investment: fiction (lead titles more than midlist), biography, history, politics, mystery, and young people's literature (what used to be called "children's books"). When works outside those genres are reviewed -- not just volumes of poetry, but books about film, physics, geology, art history, archaeology, chemistry, economics, mathematics, or philosophy -- it's usually because they can be pegged to a current event or floated on the latest wave of pop ephemera. But one shouldn't conclude that only poets are interested in Lorine Niedecker because The New York Times neglected to review the long-awaited volume Lorine Niedecker: Collected Works. Gioia is just as murky when developing his main argument -- that poetry has been killed by a professional class of creative writers. Even a decade ago, he was hardly the first to argue that vassalage to the university had diminished poets' creative and intellectual ambitions. The peculiar turns of his argument, however, are a bit original. At one point, he drops the murder charge and suggests that poetry is dying from natural causes, citing as evidence Edmund Wilson's 1934 essay "Is Verse a Dying Technique?" Wilson argued that since the late 18th century, the refinement of the lyric has led poets to forsake history and satire as suitable subjects, thereby narrowing poetry's popular appeal and intellectual scope. "The trouble is today that no verse technique is more obsolete than blank verse," Wilson complained. Had Wilson not been transfixed by his vision of the Good Old Days, perhaps he would have found the time to have read the remarkable blank verse that Wallace Stevens was writing at the time. Gioia himself admits that Wilson was guilty of making blinkered aesthetic judgments, but he nonetheless affirms that Wilson's sense of poetry's overall situation was depressingly astute. If that's true, then creative-writing programs are not the cause but merely a symptom of the rot that set in over two centuries ago. Yet elsewhere, Gioia sounds even less like an eulogist than a stoic. In a 1995 interview about Can Poetry Matter?, he observed, "The current state of literature is always dismal, yet literature gloriously survives." In other words, though its scale may change, mediocre verse is always with us; whereas it was once the product of a cottage industry, today it happens to be mass-produced. That's an interesting observation, if only because it dampens the powder of Gioia's polemic about creative-writing programs. A more interesting question is why, if the powder was wet, was the polemic so explosive? Why did an attack on college writing programs generate so much interest? Gioia has talked about the correspondence he received on his book, and based on what he's said, it's clear that some of his fans harbored a deep hatred of the university, a sort of intellectual anti-clericalism. That they gravitated to Gioia isn't surprising, since the culture wars were still raging in the early 1990s. That was a time when some academics (deservedly so) were branded Brahmins and clergy -- those, at least, being the synonyms this newspaper can print. In fact, having appointed himself a proxy of the popular will with phrases like "most readers now assume," Gioia happily enlisted in the perennial American kultur-kampf of "the people" clashing with a treacherous, elitist establishment. But Gioia and his supporters can cling to the hackneyed script of the culture wars, even long after the last major skirmishes have been fought, only by ignoring the fact that romantic rebellion has never been more impossible. The poetry world is just too diffuse. In 1991, the year Gioia's argument appeared in the Atlantic, nearly 5,000 poets were listed in A Directory of American Poets and Fiction Writers. According to the Directory of American Poetry Books, which is maintained by Poets House, in New York City, nearly 7,000 volumes of poetry were published in the United States from 1990 to 2001. (That figure excludes poetry CD's, audiotapes and videotapes, and other multimedia recordings of poetry.) The situation in the mid-20th century, which Gioia treats as a golden age of poetry-writing and poetry-reviewing, was considerably different. According to a bibliography published in the magazine Accent, there were 151 American poets in 1941; from 1931 to 1940, they published a total of 264 books of poetry (excluding doggerel and inspirational verse). Commenting on those Accent figures in 1989, in an essay later collected in Outside Stories, 1987-1991, the essayist and translator Eliot Weinberger offered an explanation that remains sound today: American poetry "was once a village where neighbors chatted and feuded. Now American poetry is a little nation of citizens who are unknown to each other, a federation of cantons where the passes are snowed in and the wires are down." Even Gioia now inhabits one of those cantons, for, since 2001, he has taught in Sonoma, Calif., at the Teaching Poetry Institute, which conducts creative-writing workshops -- yes, workshops -- for teachers and writers. Not all of the wires have remained down, since the Internet has not only facilitated communication among cantons but also opened up territory for new cantons. But the poetry world is still a federation, not a republic, and whether its decentralization has fostered pluralism or balkanization remains an open question. What's certain is that, given the changes in the country's demographics, the rise of mass university education, and the growth of poetry as a middle-class profession, that little mid-century village has vanished for good. Perhaps the term that best sums up the current state of affairs is motley -- a mix of dazzling, foolish, and banal work that cuts across styles, movements, and schools. The murky certainties of the title essay of Can Poetry Matter? have grown only murkier in 10 years' time, which is why wandering around a motley poetry world remains more appealing to me than the solicitude of Dana Gioia. John Palattella is a writer who lives in Brooklyn, N.Y. _________________________________________________________________ You may visit The Chronicle as follows: http://chronicle.com _________________________________________________________________ Copyright 2002 by The Chronicle of Higher Education ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (rly-zd04.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.228]) by air-zd03.mail.aol.com (v89.12) with ESMTP id MAILINZD32-1024094347; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:43:47 -0400 Received: from che-master.merit.edu (che-master.merit.edu [198.108.95.140]) by rly-zd04.mx.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINZD41-1024094332; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:43:32 -0400 Received: (from nobody at localhost) by che-master.merit.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA04538; Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200210241343.JAA04538 at che-master.merit.edu> From: tammaro at mnstate.edu To: thom424 at aol.com Subject: Chronicle article: 10 Years After, Poetry Still Matters >> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: tammaro at mnstate.edu Subject: Chronicle article: 10 Years After, Poetry Still Matters Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 09:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Size: 16051 URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Oct 24 11:58:03 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:58:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA In-Reply-To: <006101c27b49$18280460$bc9dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: on 10/24/02 5:35 AM, Bob Grumman at bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net wrote: >> What would ya'll consider "serious art" to be? >> >> Zan > > Why, Zan, you know my answer to that: the art *I* do, and nothing else. > > Okay, real answer: All art is serious. But for poIemical purposes, I > divide art into curated art, merchandised art and serious art. The NEA pays > attention only to the first two. Actually, it doesn't even pay attention to > those but to their curators and merchandisers--and, to less of an extent, > the performers involved. Being a creative artist, I wouldn't mind at all if > the NEA were abolished. Like all large-scale "arts-assisting" organizations > in this country I know of, it does nothing but lower the morale of the most > creative people in the arts, and increase the entrenchment of > medioctities--and anti-artists. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > For once, Bob G. and I agree. I just hope Dana Gioia can change things for a while. Paul Lake From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Oct 24 12:37:17 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:37:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Still" Message-ID: Still The sleeping urgencies are perhaps ruined now in the soul's haphazard sanctuary, ignored like a household dormant in the landscape, a backwoods dump where the last care has worn through its last memory. We might think of this as a blessing as we thrash in the nocturnal waste: rubble of doors, fat layers of fiber drooping under the eaves, weeds leaning in lassitude after heavy rain has surged from a whitened sky. Thunder blooms unevenly in unknowable places breaking distance into startling new chambers we cannot enter; potentially, a revelation. *Deep Midnight*, a song on the Chinese zither. This must be long after the storm, long after the revolution. It seems some things were kept in storage after all: cool air quietly throbbing, a few candles, chance songs *Soul to Soul* on the radio. Chance is a variant of change, the weather changing, chancy but destined. Our trust is that we, too, are forms attached to content, content to meanings aroused. It is our custom to bring things about. --Ann Lauterbach fr. *If in Time: Selected Poems, 1975-2000* (New York: Penguin Poets, 2001) Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From barr at mail.rochester.edu Thu Oct 24 13:39:49 2002 From: barr at mail.rochester.edu (Brandon Barr) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:39:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Banner Art Collective announces redesign Message-ID: ***Apologies in advance for cross-posting*** 24 October 2002 The Banner Art Collective (http://bannerart.org) has implemented a new design created by Garrett Lynch. The new design brings a vast number of improvements to the site, which collects and distributes net.art and poetry created according to the limitations of WWW advertising. The collection is now database driven and easily searchable. Each work is presented on a separate page, and more artist information is featured next to each work. Viewers have always been able to access cut-and-paste html tags to place works from the collection on their own webpages, but now the site also offers users a php-driven script that, when added to any html document, serves randomly changing banners from the collection. In addition, the new design automates the submission process with an online form which artists can use to easily upload their works to the collection. There are also new frequently updated sections which contain news, links to host and sponsor sites, and links to related research and art projects. Best, Brandon Barr & Garrett Lynch ---- The Banner Art Collective currently includes works by: arte_comprimido (Argentina) babel (Canada/UK) Brandon Barr (US) Ji B?t (France) Bruec (US) Christophe Bruno (France) Agricola de Cologne (Germany) Catherine Daly (US) Tom Dannecker (US) drivedrive.com Roberto Echen (Argentina) Joshua Goldberg (US) Lee French & Barry Small (UK) jimpunk (France) Kanarinka (US) Tamara La? (Belgium) Jessica Loseby (UK) Garrett Lynch (UK) Gerhard Mantz (Germany) Joseph Franklyn McElroy (US) Millie Niss (US) Alexandra Reill (Italy) Micha?l Sellum (France) Antoine Schmitt (France) Ana Maria Uribe (Argentina) ---- From JforJames at aol.com Thu Oct 24 14:40:07 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:40:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets Nominated North of Here Message-ID: <1c3.9092c0.2ae99887@aol.com> Shields, Johnston on Canada Book Award Shortlist Mon Oct 21,10:36 AM ET TORONTO (Reuters) - Carol Shields's novel "Unless" and Wayne Johnston's "The Navigator of New York" are among the finalists for the prestigious C$15,000 ($9,600) Governor General's Literary Awards for Canadian fiction, nonfiction, poetry, drama, children's literature, and translation. Other finalists for the fiction category include David Bergen's "The Case of Lena S.", Ann Ireland's "Exile" and Gloria Sawai's "A Song for Nettie Johnson". Shield's novel, "Unless" has already received a nod from the Man Booker Prize and the Giller Prize, Canada's richest award for fiction. Johnston's "The Navigator of New York" is also short-listed for the Giller. Nominees for poetry are Tammy Armstrong for "Bogman's Music", Colin Browne for "Ground Water", Kathy Mac for "Nail Builders Plan for Strength and Growth", Roy Miki's "Surrender" and Erin Mour? for "O Cidad?n". The winners will be announced on November 12, 2002 in Toronto and Montreal. The awards will be presented on November 19, 2002 at Rideau Hall, the residence of the Governor General of Canada, in Ottawa. "The excitement, the quality of literature today in Canada is what strikes me in seeing the list of the finalists," said Governor General Adrienne Clarkson, who will be presenting the awards at the ceremony. "To be surprised and gratified by the writing we are seeing now is a great gift to us all." In addition to the $15,000 prize, the publisher of the winning book receives $3,000 to support promotional activities. For the first time this year, nonwinning finalists will each receive $1,000. The Governor General's Literary Awards have been around since 1937 and were at first not monetary prizes. They are currently administered by the Canada Council for the Arts. From TerryP17 at aol.com Thu Oct 24 17:56:15 2002 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:56:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia and NEA Message-ID: <151.165fe994.2ae9c67f@aol.com> Jim and Chryss-- In a message dated 10/24/02 8:52:48 AM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes: >> . And if the Dems retain control, this could get uncomfortable. It is > >always >> a contentious nomination. >Terry, havn't the Elephantines been the ones most ready to crush >the NEA? Right you are, Jim. And I still think NEA should go, given all the great and enduring art they've wasted our money on since the endowments were established. But, whatever . . . in the end, my position on this issue is the one that gets crushed, not the NEA! However, my point here was a different one. The Dems are currently sandbagging any and all Bush appointments by taking 12-18 months to bring them to a vote--if ever. My point is that the Dems will be in no hurry to move this nomination along. It's a way you screw the other party, by not letting their guys get into management. The Elephantines did it to Clinton. The Donkeys did it to Bush I and Reagan, ad infinitum. This is a swell town. One other comment from Chryss: <> Chryss, forgive me, but you need to read the newspapers more often. The original Bush appointee here was a well-regarded academic who died suddenly in office not long after his appointment. Clinton had actress Jane Alexander as his NEA head. Most NEA heads have been academics, not military or govies. I don't have the whole roster since the NEA was begun in the late 1960s as I recall, under Johnson. But brass hats don't sell in the NEA constituency. Gioia's appointment is neither unique nor exceptional in this regard. --Terry Ponick From chryss at silcom.com Thu Oct 24 18:58:09 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:58:09 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia and NEA In-Reply-To: <151.165fe994.2ae9c67f@aol.com> Message-ID: Gee, Terry, Please amend my remarks to include academics along with the government or military. My point was, there have not been many full-time artists appointed--meaning people making their living in the arts, not institutions. I believe Gioia and Jane Alexander are rather exceptional in this regard. On 10/24/02 2:56 PM, TerryP17 at aol.com wrote: > Jim and Chryss-- > > In a message dated 10/24/02 8:52:48 AM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > writes: > >>> . And if the Dems retain control, this could get uncomfortable. It is >> >> always >>> a contentious nomination. >> Terry, havn't the Elephantines been the ones most ready to crush >> the NEA? > > Right you are, Jim. And I still think NEA should go, given all the great and > enduring art they've wasted our money on since the endowments were > established. But, whatever . . . in the end, my position on this issue is the > one that gets crushed, not the NEA! > > However, my point here was a different one. The Dems are currently > sandbagging any and all Bush appointments by taking 12-18 months to bring > them to a vote--if ever. My point is that the Dems will be in no hurry to > move this nomination along. It's a way you screw the other party, by not > letting their guys get into management. The Elephantines did it to Clinton. > The Donkeys did it to Bush I and Reagan, ad infinitum. This is a swell town. > > One other comment from Chryss: > > < the former chairs have come out of the government or military--Washington > people, not arts people.>> > > Chryss, forgive me, but you need to read the newspapers more often. The > original Bush appointee here was a well-regarded academic who died suddenly > in office not long after his appointment. Clinton had actress Jane Alexander > as his NEA head. Most NEA heads have been academics, not military or govies. > I don't have the whole roster since the NEA was begun in the late 1960s as I > recall, under Johnson. But brass hats don't sell in the NEA constituency. > Gioia's appointment is neither unique nor exceptional in this regard. > > --Terry Ponick > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 24 21:33:33 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:33:33 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: Message-ID: <007d01c27bc6$8b521a70$41864cca@JROSS2> Okay, but it won't be as much fun. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 8:49 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > Now you stop that, Zan. It hurts when I laugh > too much. > > Hal "Imagination is more important > than knowledge." > --Albert Einstein > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > { What would ya'll consider "serious art" to be? > { > { Zan > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 24 21:32:56 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:32:56 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <7950867.1035385754698.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com> <006601c27b14$746cb980$5b864cca@JROSS2> <006101c27b49$18280460$bc9dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <007c01c27bc6$8a250c20$41864cca@JROSS2> sigh. It's the same all over the world. You should see most of the mediocre rubbish supported by our national arts endowment agency. Still, I suppose it's better than most when it comes to poetry. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > > What would ya'll consider "serious art" to be? > > > > Zan > > Why, Zan, you know my answer to that: the art *I* do, and nothing else. > > Okay, real answer: All art is serious. But for poIemical purposes, I > divide art into curated art, merchandised art and serious art. The NEA pays > attention only to the first two. Actually, it doesn't even pay attention to > those but to their curators and merchandisers--and, to less of an extent, > the performers involved. Being a creative artist, I wouldn't mind at all if > the NEA were abolished. Like all large-scale "arts-assisting" organizations > in this country I know of, it does nothing but lower the morale of the most > creative people in the arts, and increase the entrenchment of > medioctities--and anti-artists. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jpjones at ihug.com.au Thu Oct 24 22:14:13 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (jpjones at ihug.com.au) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:14:13 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA Message-ID: > sigh. It's the same all over the world. You should see most of the > mediocre rubbish supported by our national arts endowment agency. Still, I > suppose it's better than most when it comes to poetry. > > Zan Hi Zan, Pretty broad kind of (typical, unsupported) statement - same as the 'serious art' one, whatever that is. I work for the Australia Council (don't make the decisions, mind but I do see what happens). I have my own views about what's mediocre - a lot of it comes to us and the Boards make decisions we may not always agree with (read between the lines there) but a lot of the mediocre happens anyway without our help - just look at what's published, performed, played, hung, exhibited by anyone, anywhere, anyhow. Mediocre suported and, yeah, good stuff misses out. Govt agencies aren't the only culprits. No system of government funding is perfect but this one (a form of peer assessment)is no better or no worse than any other. I don't know a lot about the US system so I won't comment on how it works. And poets do get some money - either directly through grants or indirectly through grants to mags, festivals, orgs etc. Hey, I think some good decisions are made and find all this negativity just a tad tiresome. Sometimes there are good grounds for it but it is just as often a result of artistic jealousy and sour grapes from the good and mediocre alike. And we see/hear/are subjected to it all in this office. Best, Jill From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 24 23:04:32 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:04:32 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: Message-ID: <01db01c27bd3$3fddeda0$41864cca@JROSS2> Nice to know someone in power! And I did say that I thought your organisation was/is better than most other agencies when it comes to poets, eh? If you don't have much to pick from when it comes to the arts and awarding grants, well, as you say -- it isn't you people's fault. I have no axe to grind when it comes to funding. I ain't jealous of no one, neither. *g* Last bunch of grapes I ate was sweet, sweet -- juice ran down my neck, soaking my shirt. As to finding negativity tiresome, you hear/see/watch it all the time where you work. For the rest of us, it's just some vent time and place ... I, too, asked what serious art was, and have yet to receive a reply to that one. Apparently, though, poetry is included under the heading. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > > sigh. It's the same all over the world. You should see most of the > > mediocre rubbish supported by our national arts endowment agency. Still, I > > suppose it's better than most when it comes to poetry. > > > > Zan > > > Hi Zan, > > Pretty broad kind of (typical, unsupported) statement - same as the 'serious > art' one, whatever that is. I work for the Australia Council (don't make the > decisions, mind but I do see what happens). I have my own views about what's > mediocre - a lot of it comes to us and the Boards make decisions we may not > always agree with (read between the lines there) but a lot of the mediocre > happens anyway without our help - just look at what's published, performed, > played, hung, exhibited by anyone, anywhere, anyhow. Mediocre suported and, > yeah, good stuff misses out. Govt agencies aren't the only culprits. > > No system of government funding is perfect but this one (a form of peer > assessment)is no better or no worse than any other. I don't know a lot about > the US system so I won't comment on how it works. > > And poets do get some money - either directly through grants or indirectly > through grants to mags, festivals, orgs etc. Hey, I think some good decisions > are made and find all this negativity just a tad tiresome. Sometimes there are > good grounds for it but it is just as often a result of artistic jealousy and > sour grapes from the good and mediocre alike. And we see/hear/are subjected to > it all in this office. > > Best, > Jill > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jpjones at ihug.com.au Thu Oct 24 23:34:57 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (jpjones at ihug.com.au) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:34:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA Message-ID: > Nice to know someone in power! And I did say that I thought your > organisation was/is better than most other agencies when it comes to poets, > eh? Zan, You did, but I think we also do OK with others as well. :-) > I have no axe to grind when it comes to funding. I ain't jealous of no one, > neither. *g* Last bunch of grapes I ate was sweet, sweet -- juice ran down > my neck, soaking my shirt. Sounds like a beautiful thing. I'd rather be writing (and I've been rejected in the past as well but this selfsame body) but a gal's gotta earn a quid or two. We tries our bests. > As to finding negativity tiresome, you hear/see/watch it all the time where > you work. For the rest of us, it's just some vent time and place ... But those who get vented on aren't the decision makers. After spending over an hour on the phone with a venter, receiving the benefit of the full spray, as a ventee you start to feel .. well, I'll leave you to imagine. Let alone the lack of grace one gets from those who were *successful* in getting a grant. (I kid you not.) Even when one looks on it as 'part of the job' it's only human to be affected by it. > I, too, asked what serious art was, and have yet to receive a reply to that > one. Apparently, though, poetry is included under the heading. Seriously?? best, Jill From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Fri Oct 25 11:08:24 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:08:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] piano music by Gould Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021025105750.00ab24e0@postoffice.brown.edu> from: India Point 7 On the skipping Bay, a ripple effect of myriad mirrors. . . and in the far dockyard a bright blue freighter, piled with iron bars like rusty blood (beneath the sky's bronze star). It turns there like a windvane, blue on blue for frosted Orpheus. Like an abstract or a sketch - someone's winter sleigh or chariot. Image of you, for you - lakeshore rim or emanation, sled-mark in the snow. An arctic ark's exact reflection's shadow shows the way. A forking lattice-work gives berth (some chill Epiphany) where northern lights spoke heaven - wheel. . . * A circle of cold cities, winter nests perched upon a plumbline (north-northwest). There where white-night ever-neverland is pencilled into twilight's other-same. A melancholy snowy hierosgamos - piney arrowheads, fixed at their end. The lead plumb bob draws out the poison so. Orpheus stands upright then, and spins - a little diddle-dreidle pin upon a barrel (hollow, tartared, frozen). And the cold light whistles down a blade from the Pole. And the barrel remembers the shape of the absent ship it harbors (aching coracle. . . love-stayed). 10.24.02 - Henry the Gould From elemenope at icubed.com Fri Oct 25 16:36:50 2002 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 04:36:50 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Government's Role in the Art of Poetry In-Reply-To: <20021025160101.CEAFC101F7@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <20021025160101.CEAFC101F7@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Every year the Library of Congress under the direction of the Poet Laureate should publish an anthology of great American poems. Each genre should be represented. Cowboy Poetry and L A N G U A G E poetry, both, but each in their own sections, plus all the others. Rapster. Formalist. Haiku, trad and pop. Let recognized masters in each genre be vice-editors for the first volume and then the next year let the winner be the editor. The editor gets automatic inclusion in the anthology. In each section, thus, we read the champion poem plus the runner ups. An essay on the current state of the particular genre would be presented by each vice editor. [Let me tell you right now, if you think this idea has any chance of getting off the ground: BarakaIsm will be excluded. There is no chance that a poetry which advocates the destruction of the United States of America can be rewarded. If you want to take the idea in that direction, forget about it. You'll ruin a good thing for everyone else who is a patriot. So there won't be a section for poets who see themselves as members of revolutionary cells and wish to use the award as a base of operations for their continued sedition and treachery.] A gala reading would be staged at Kennedy Center. All the poets would be flown in on military jets. My choice would be a Stealth Jet of the Black Triangle variety reported variously on short wave radio, but this preference indicates only the wide variety of possiblities that winning this coveted award propose to the poets of our country. It is not inconceivable that in the future all of the poets would be given the opportunity to ride aboard the latest Space Shuttle for a flight around Earth to include, perhaps, a looping figure eight excursion to Luna, the astrological ruler of poetry. I recall that a poem by my old friend, James Dickey, "Behold: The Blue Planet," was recited on one of the last Apollo flights by Commandore Borman, the one who also drove a golf ball off the moon in the broadcast back to us. The President of the United States would have to read this book and also submit an essay, as well as the NEA head. Perhaps each year one unusual essayist could be importuned to craft their views: CIA chief, Head of the Joint Chiefs, Secretary of the Treasury, etc. In this way, poets would have the feeling, at least, that the people who run the government are in touch with the imagination and humanity that the poets believe and feel they represent. The book would be printed in both top quality paperback and gilt edged leather bound editions by the Government Printing House under the imprint of the Library of Congress. CDs, DVDs, etc. would be marketed. Profits, and there would be massive profits, would go to pay the poets. If the poets in a genre want to pool their earnings and invest in, say, the new Chicago poetry futures market I am thinking of starting, also, they can do it. The poets will decide what to do with their gains, not some apparat in the Department of Education. >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Still" (Halvard Johnson) > 2. The Banner Art Collective announces redesign (Brandon Barr) > 3. Poets Nominated North of Here (JforJames at aol.com) > 4. Re: Gioia and NEA (TerryP17 at aol.com) > 5. Re: Re: Gioia and NEA (Chryss Yost) > 6. Re: Gioia and the NEA (ganesha) > 7. Re: Gioia and the NEA (ganesha) > 8. Re: Gioia and the NEA (jpjones at ihug.com.au) > 9. Re: Gioia and the NEA (ganesha) > 10. Re: Gioia and the NEA (jpjones at ihug.com.au) > 11. piano music by Gould (Henry Gould) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >From: "Halvard Johnson" >To: "New-Poetry" >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:37:17 -0400 >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Still" >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Still > >The sleeping urgencies are perhaps ruined now >in the soul's haphazard sanctuary, >ignored like a household >dormant in the landscape, a backwoods dump >where the last care has worn through its last >memory. We might think of this as a blessing >as we thrash in the nocturnal waste: >rubble of doors, fat layers of fiber >drooping under the eaves, weeds >leaning in lassitude after heavy rain >has surged from a whitened sky. >Thunder blooms unevenly in unknowable places >breaking distance into startling new chambers >we cannot enter; potentially, a revelation. > >*Deep Midnight*, a song on the Chinese zither. >This must be long after the storm, long >after the revolution. It seems some things >were kept in storage after all: cool air >quietly throbbing, a few candles, chance songs >*Soul to Soul* on the radio. Chance is a variant >of change, the weather changing, chancy >but destined. Our trust is that we, too, are >forms attached to content, content to meanings >aroused. It is our custom to bring things about. > >--Ann Lauterbach > >fr. *If in Time: Selected Poems, 1975-2000* >(New York: Penguin Poets, 2001) > > >Hal > >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >From: "Brandon Barr" >To: , , > , > "UB Poetics discussion group" , > , , > , , > >Cc: "Brandon Barr" , > "Garrett Lynch" >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:39:49 -0400 >Subject: [New-Poetry] The Banner Art Collective announces redesign >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >***Apologies in advance for cross-posting*** > >24 October 2002 > >The Banner Art Collective (http://bannerart.org) has implemented a new >design created by Garrett Lynch. The new design brings a vast number of >improvements to the site, which collects and distributes net.art and poetry >created according to the limitations of WWW advertising. > >The collection is now database driven and easily searchable. Each work is >presented on a separate page, and more artist information is featured next >to each work. Viewers have always been able to access cut-and-paste html >tags to place works from the collection on their own webpages, but now the >site also offers users a php-driven script that, when added to any html >document, serves randomly changing banners from the collection. > >In addition, the new design automates the submission process with an online >form which artists can use to easily upload their works to the collection. >There are also new frequently updated sections which contain news, links to >host and sponsor sites, and links to related research and art projects. > >Best, >Brandon Barr & Garrett Lynch > >---- > >The Banner Art Collective currently includes works by: > >arte_comprimido (Argentina) >babel (Canada/UK) >Brandon Barr (US) >Ji B?t (France) >Bruec (US) >Christophe Bruno (France) >Agricola de Cologne (Germany) >Catherine Daly (US) >Tom Dannecker (US) >drivedrive.com >Roberto Echen (Argentina) >Joshua Goldberg (US) >Lee French & Barry Small (UK) >jimpunk (France) >Kanarinka (US) >Tamara La? (Belgium) >Jessica Loseby (UK) >Garrett Lynch (UK) >Gerhard Mantz (Germany) >Joseph Franklyn McElroy (US) >Millie Niss (US) >Alexandra Reill (Italy) >Micha?l Sellum (France) >Antoine Schmitt (France) >Ana Maria Uribe (Argentina) > >---- > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 3 >From: JforJames at aol.com >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:40:07 EDT >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets Nominated North of Here >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Shields, Johnston on Canada Book Award Shortlist >Mon Oct 21,10:36 AM ET > >TORONTO (Reuters) - Carol Shields's novel "Unless" and Wayne Johnston's "The >Navigator of New York" are among the finalists for the prestigious C$15,000 >($9,600) Governor General's Literary Awards for Canadian fiction, nonfiction, >poetry, drama, children's literature, and translation. > >Other finalists for the fiction category include David Bergen's "The Case of >Lena S.", Ann Ireland's "Exile" and Gloria Sawai's "A Song for Nettie >Johnson". > >Shield's novel, "Unless" has already received a nod from the Man Booker Prize >and the Giller Prize, Canada's richest award for fiction. Johnston's "The >Navigator of New York" is also short-listed for the Giller. > >Nominees for poetry are Tammy Armstrong for "Bogman's Music", Colin Browne >for "Ground Water", Kathy Mac for "Nail Builders Plan for Strength and >Growth", Roy Miki's "Surrender" and Erin Mour? for "O Cidad?n". > >The winners will be announced on November 12, 2002 in Toronto and Montreal. >The awards will be presented on November 19, 2002 at Rideau Hall, the >residence of the Governor General of Canada, in Ottawa. > >"The excitement, the quality of literature today in Canada is what strikes me >in seeing the list of the finalists," said Governor General Adrienne >Clarkson, who will be presenting the awards at the ceremony. > >"To be surprised and gratified by the writing we are seeing now is a great >gift to us all." > >In addition to the $15,000 prize, the publisher of the winning book receives >$3,000 to support promotional activities. For the first time this year, >nonwinning finalists will each receive $1,000. > >The Governor General's Literary Awards have been around since 1937 and were >at first not monetary prizes. They are currently administered by the Canada >Council for the Arts. > >--__--__-- > >Message: 4 >From: TerryP17 at aol.com >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:56:15 EDT >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia and NEA >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Jim and Chryss-- > >In a message dated 10/24/02 8:52:48 AM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu >writes: > >>> . And if the Dems retain control, this could get uncomfortable. It is >> >>always >>> a contentious nomination. >>Terry, havn't the Elephantines been the ones most ready to crush >>the NEA? > >Right you are, Jim. And I still think NEA should go, given all the great and >enduring art they've wasted our money on since the endowments were >established. But, whatever . . . in the end, my position on this issue is the >one that gets crushed, not the NEA! > >However, my point here was a different one. The Dems are currently >sandbagging any and all Bush appointments by taking 12-18 months to bring >them to a vote--if ever. My point is that the Dems will be in no hurry to >move this nomination along. It's a way you screw the other party, by not >letting their guys get into management. The Elephantines did it to Clinton. >The Donkeys did it to Bush I and Reagan, ad infinitum. This is a swell town. > >One other comment from Chryss: > ><the former chairs have come out of the government or military--Washington >people, not arts people.>> > >Chryss, forgive me, but you need to read the newspapers more often. The >original Bush appointee here was a well-regarded academic who died suddenly >in office not long after his appointment. Clinton had actress Jane Alexander >as his NEA head. Most NEA heads have been academics, not military or govies. >I don't have the whole roster since the NEA was begun in the late 1960s as I >recall, under Johnson. But brass hats don't sell in the NEA constituency. >Gioia's appointment is neither unique nor exceptional in this regard. > >--Terry Ponick > >--__--__-- > >Message: 5 >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:58:09 -0700 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia and NEA >From: Chryss Yost >To: >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Gee, Terry, >Please amend my remarks to include academics along with the government or >military. My point was, there have not been many full-time artists >appointed--meaning people making their living in the arts, not institutions. >I believe Gioia and Jane Alexander are rather exceptional in this regard. > >On 10/24/02 2:56 PM, TerryP17 at aol.com wrote: > >> Jim and Chryss-- >> >> In a message dated 10/24/02 8:52:48 AM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> writes: >> >>>> . And if the Dems retain control, this could get uncomfortable. It is >>> >>> always >>>> a contentious nomination. >>> Terry, havn't the Elephantines been the ones most ready to crush >>> the NEA? >> >> Right you are, Jim. And I still think NEA should go, given all the great and >> enduring art they've wasted our money on since the endowments were >> established. But, whatever . . . in the end, my position on this >>issue is the >> one that gets crushed, not the NEA! >> >> However, my point here was a different one. The Dems are currently >> sandbagging any and all Bush appointments by taking 12-18 months to bring >> them to a vote--if ever. My point is that the Dems will be in no hurry to >> move this nomination along. It's a way you screw the other party, by not >> letting their guys get into management. The Elephantines did it to Clinton. >> The Donkeys did it to Bush I and Reagan, ad infinitum. This is a swell town. >> >> One other comment from Chryss: >> >> <> the former chairs have come out of the government or military--Washington >> people, not arts people.>> >> >> Chryss, forgive me, but you need to read the newspapers more often. The >> original Bush appointee here was a well-regarded academic who died suddenly >> in office not long after his appointment. Clinton had actress Jane Alexander >> as his NEA head. Most NEA heads have been academics, not military >>or govies. >> I don't have the whole roster since the NEA was begun in the late 1960s as I >> recall, under Johnson. But brass hats don't sell in the NEA constituency. >> Gioia's appointment is neither unique nor exceptional in this regard. >> >> --Terry Ponick >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 6 >From: "ganesha" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA >Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:33:33 +0800 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Okay, but it won't be as much fun. > >Zan > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Halvard Johnson" >To: >Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 8:49 PM >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > > >> Now you stop that, Zan. It hurts when I laugh >> too much. >> >> Hal "Imagination is more important >> than knowledge." >> --Albert Einstein >> >> Halvard Johnson >> =============== >> email: halvard at earthlink.net >> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >> >> { What would ya'll consider "serious art" to be? >> { >> { Zan >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 7 >From: "ganesha" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA >Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:32:56 +0800 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >sigh. It's the same all over the world. You should see most of the >mediocre rubbish supported by our national arts endowment agency. Still, I >suppose it's better than most when it comes to poetry. > >Zan >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 6:35 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > > >> > What would ya'll consider "serious art" to be? >> > >> > Zan >> >> Why, Zan, you know my answer to that: the art *I* do, and nothing else. >> >> Okay, real answer: All art is serious. But for poIemical purposes, I >> divide art into curated art, merchandised art and serious art. The NEA >pays >> attention only to the first two. Actually, it doesn't even pay attention >to >> those but to their curators and merchandisers--and, to less of an extent, > > the performers involved. Being a creative artist, I wouldn't mind at all >if >> the NEA were abolished. Like all large-scale "arts-assisting" >organizations >> in this country I know of, it does nothing but lower the morale of the >most >> creative people in the arts, and increase the entrenchment of >> medioctities--and anti-artists. >> >> --Bob G. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 8 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: jpjones at ihug.com.au >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:14:13 EST >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> sigh. It's the same all over the world. You should see most of the >> mediocre rubbish supported by our national arts endowment agency. Still, I >> suppose it's better than most when it comes to poetry. >> >> Zan > > >Hi Zan, > >Pretty broad kind of (typical, unsupported) statement - same as the 'serious >art' one, whatever that is. I work for the Australia Council (don't make the >decisions, mind but I do see what happens). I have my own views about what's >mediocre - a lot of it comes to us and the Boards make decisions we may not >always agree with (read between the lines there) but a lot of the mediocre >happens anyway without our help - just look at what's published, performed, >played, hung, exhibited by anyone, anywhere, anyhow. Mediocre suported and, >yeah, good stuff misses out. Govt agencies aren't the only culprits. > >No system of government funding is perfect but this one (a form of peer >assessment)is no better or no worse than any other. I don't know a lot about >the US system so I won't comment on how it works. > >And poets do get some money - either directly through grants or indirectly >through grants to mags, festivals, orgs etc. Hey, I think some good decisions >are made and find all this negativity just a tad tiresome. Sometimes there are >good grounds for it but it is just as often a result of artistic jealousy and >sour grapes from the good and mediocre alike. And we see/hear/are subjected to >it all in this office. > >Best, >Jill > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 9 >From: "ganesha" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA >Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:04:32 +0800 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Nice to know someone in power! And I did say that I thought your >organisation was/is better than most other agencies when it comes to poets, >eh? > >If you don't have much to pick from when it comes to the arts and awarding >grants, well, as you say -- it isn't you people's fault. > >I have no axe to grind when it comes to funding. I ain't jealous of no one, >neither. *g* Last bunch of grapes I ate was sweet, sweet -- juice ran down >my neck, soaking my shirt. > >As to finding negativity tiresome, you hear/see/watch it all the time where >you work. For the rest of us, it's just some vent time and place ... > >I, too, asked what serious art was, and have yet to receive a reply to that >one. Apparently, though, poetry is included under the heading. > >Zan > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:14 AM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > > >> > sigh. It's the same all over the world. You should see most of the >> > mediocre rubbish supported by our national arts endowment agency. >Still, I >> > suppose it's better than most when it comes to poetry. >> > >> > Zan >> >> >> Hi Zan, >> >> Pretty broad kind of (typical, unsupported) statement - same as the >'serious >> art' one, whatever that is. I work for the Australia Council (don't make >the >> decisions, mind but I do see what happens). I have my own views about >what's >> mediocre - a lot of it comes to us and the Boards make decisions we may >not >> always agree with (read between the lines there) but a lot of the mediocre >> happens anyway without our help - just look at what's published, >performed, >> played, hung, exhibited by anyone, anywhere, anyhow. Mediocre suported >and, >> yeah, good stuff misses out. Govt agencies aren't the only culprits. >> >> No system of government funding is perfect but this one (a form of peer >> assessment)is no better or no worse than any other. I don't know a lot >about >> the US system so I won't comment on how it works. >> >> And poets do get some money - either directly through grants or indirectly >> through grants to mags, festivals, orgs etc. Hey, I think some good >decisions >> are made and find all this negativity just a tad tiresome. Sometimes there >are >> good grounds for it but it is just as often a result of artistic jealousy >and >> sour grapes from the good and mediocre alike. And we see/hear/are >subjected to >> it all in this office. >> >> Best, >> Jill >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 10 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: jpjones at ihug.com.au >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:34:57 EST >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> Nice to know someone in power! And I did say that I thought your >> organisation was/is better than most other agencies when it comes to poets, >> eh? > >Zan, >You did, but I think we also do OK with others as well. :-) > > >> I have no axe to grind when it comes to funding. I ain't jealous of no one, >> neither. *g* Last bunch of grapes I ate was sweet, sweet -- juice ran down >> my neck, soaking my shirt. > >Sounds like a beautiful thing. I'd rather be writing (and I've been >rejected in >the past as well but this selfsame body) but a gal's gotta earn a quid or two. >We tries our bests. > > >> As to finding negativity tiresome, you hear/see/watch it all the time where >> you work. For the rest of us, it's just some vent time and place ... > >But those who get vented on aren't the decision makers. After spending over an >hour on the phone with a venter, receiving the benefit of the full spray, as a >ventee you start to feel .. well, I'll leave you to imagine. Let >alone the lack >of grace one gets from those who were *successful* in getting a grant. (I kid >you not.) Even when one looks on it as 'part of the job' it's only human to be >affected by it. > > >> I, too, asked what serious art was, and have yet to receive a reply to that >> one. Apparently, though, poetry is included under the heading. > > >Seriously?? > >best, >Jill > > > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 11 >Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:08:24 -0400 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: Henry Gould >Subject: [New-Poetry] piano music by Gould >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >from: India Point > >7 > >On the skipping Bay, a ripple effect of >myriad mirrors. . . and in the far dockyard >a bright blue freighter, piled with iron bars >like rusty blood (beneath the sky's bronze star). > >It turns there like a windvane, blue on blue >for frosted Orpheus. Like an abstract >or a sketch - someone's winter sleigh >or chariot. Image of you, for you - > >lakeshore rim or emanation, sled-mark >in the snow. An arctic ark's exact >reflection's shadow shows the way. >A forking lattice-work > >gives berth (some chill Epiphany) >where northern lights spoke heaven - wheel. . . > > * > >A circle of cold cities, winter nests >perched upon a plumbline (north-northwest). > >There where white-night ever-neverland >is pencilled into twilight's other-same. >A melancholy snowy hierosgamos - >piney arrowheads, fixed at their end. > >The lead plumb bob draws out the poison >so. Orpheus stands upright then, >and spins - a little diddle-dreidle pin >upon a barrel (hollow, tartared, frozen). > >And the cold light whistles down a blade >from the Pole. And the barrel remembers >the shape of the absent ship it harbors >(aching coracle. . . love-stayed). > > 10.24.02 > >- Henry the Gould > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >End of New-Poetry Digest -- From TerryP17 at aol.com Fri Oct 25 17:09:26 2002 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:09:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia and NEA Message-ID: <84.bf360d.2aeb0d06@aol.com> Hi Chryss, In a message dated 10/25/02 12:01:47 PM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes: >Please amend my remarks to include academics along with the government >or >military. My point was, there have not been many full-time artists >appointed--meaning people making their living in the arts, not institutions. >I believe Gioia and Jane Alexander are rather exceptional in this regard. Not sure you'll win friends on THIS board lumping academics with govies or brass hats!! And a lot of academics, particularly the MFA types, regard themselves as artists first who have to teach in order to put food on the table. Careful where you go with this. I do see what you're trying to say, though and I'm not particularly trying to give you a hard time. Fact is this--in general, artists, no offense to them, are not the greatest administrators, which pretty much explains the NEA phenomenon. You need strong administrative abilities to control your agency's bureaucrats who will try to wait you to death on your initiatives until your appointment expires. Artists have little patience with this kind of environment--and rightly so, since they are creative, right brain people and bureaucratic wrangling is not what they do best unless they are accomplished grantsmen (grantspersons?). NEA is above all a government agency that makes grants, like NSF which I currently contract to. There is lots of peer review, much politics (which you always get with peer review), and not very much art in the end, which is one of my problems with this agency. NSF gets more innovative science than NEA does good art. (Of course, NSF has a slightly larger budget.) At any rate, due to the constant politicking and bickering involved, deans and department heads who are used to this tend to do very well at the helm of NEA since it's same old, same old for them. And Gioia, art aside, has similar skills from the business sector, which, with the writing, was no doubt what made him an attractive candidate to this administration. It is just not in the nature of, say, a portrait painter (if they have them anymore) to thrive on this kind of stuff. It is really quite frustrating, and any appointee who can move his or her agency one inch in another direction during a 4-year appointment has done quite well indeed. --Terry Ponick From szwyckoff at yahoo.com Fri Oct 25 21:13:23 2002 From: szwyckoff at yahoo.com (Sally Wyckoff) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 18:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA Message-ID: <20021026011323.49111.qmail@web21505.mail.yahoo.com> <> How about Lynne Cheney, or someone in her circle? Interestingly, Gioia and Cheney are both contributors to something called the Mars Hill Audio Journal: "Mars Hill Audio exists to assist Christians who desire to move from thoughtless consumption of modern culture to a vantage point of thoughtful engagement." http://www.marshillaudio.org/catalog/list.shtml From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 25 22:33:04 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:33:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Government's Role in the Art of Poetry References: <20021025160101.CEAFC101F7@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <001301c27c98$037ea5a0$5046fea9@j1c1k6> > Every year the Library of Congress under the direction of the Poet > Laureate should publish an anthology of great American poems. Each > genre should be represented. I at first thought you might be serious, for it sounds like a good idea to me. But before you could do it properly, you'd have to have a list of poetry genres--or, as I have it, schools of poetry. Determining recognized masters would be hard, too. Not up to further comment on your other ideas, some of which are interesting, and bias, which is not. (A government that will not allow criticism, however psychotic, is not a government worth supporting.) --Bob G. Cowboy Poetry and L A N G U A G E > poetry, both, but each in their own sections, plus all the others. > Rapster. Formalist. Haiku, trad and pop. Let recognized masters in > each genre be vice-editors for the first volume and then the next > year let the winner be the editor. The editor gets automatic > inclusion in the anthology. In each section, thus, we read the > champion poem plus the runner ups. An essay on the current state of > the particular genre would be presented by each vice editor. [Let me > tell you right now, if you think this idea has any chance of getting > off the ground: BarakaIsm will be excluded. There is no chance that > a poetry which advocates the destruction of the United States of > America can be rewarded. If you want to take the idea in that > direction, forget about it. You'll ruin a good thing for everyone > else who is a patriot. So there won't be a section for poets who see > themselves as members of revolutionary cells and wish to use the > award as a base of operations for their continued sedition and > treachery.] > > A gala reading would be staged at Kennedy Center. All the poets > would be flown in on military jets. My choice would be a Stealth Jet > of the Black Triangle variety reported variously on short wave radio, > but this preference indicates only the wide variety of possiblities > that winning this coveted award propose to the poets of our country. > It is not inconceivable that in the future all of the poets would be > given the opportunity to ride aboard the latest Space Shuttle for a > flight around Earth to include, perhaps, a looping figure eight > excursion to Luna, the astrological ruler of poetry. I recall that a > poem by my old friend, James Dickey, "Behold: The Blue Planet," was > recited on one of the last Apollo flights by Commandore Borman, the > one who also drove a golf ball off the moon in the broadcast back to > us. > > The President of the United States would have to read this book and > also submit an essay, as well as the NEA head. Perhaps each year one > unusual essayist could be importuned to craft their views: CIA > chief, Head of the Joint Chiefs, Secretary of the Treasury, etc. In > this way, poets would have the feeling, at least, that the people who > run the government are in touch with the imagination and humanity > that the poets believe and feel they represent. > > The book would be printed in both top quality paperback and gilt > edged leather bound editions by the Government Printing House under > the imprint of the Library of Congress. CDs, DVDs, etc. would be > marketed. Profits, and there would be massive profits, would go to > pay the poets. If the poets in a genre want to pool their earnings > and invest in, say, the new Chicago poetry futures market I am > thinking of starting, also, they can do it. The poets will decide > what to do with their gains, not some apparat in the Department of > Education. > > > > >Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Still" (Halvard Johnson) > > 2. The Banner Art Collective announces redesign (Brandon Barr) > > 3. Poets Nominated North of Here (JforJames at aol.com) > > 4. Re: Gioia and NEA (TerryP17 at aol.com) > > 5. Re: Re: Gioia and NEA (Chryss Yost) > > 6. Re: Gioia and the NEA (ganesha) > > 7. Re: Gioia and the NEA (ganesha) > > 8. Re: Gioia and the NEA (jpjones at ihug.com.au) > > 9. Re: Gioia and the NEA (ganesha) > > 10. Re: Gioia and the NEA (jpjones at ihug.com.au) > > 11. piano music by Gould (Henry Gould) > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 1 > >From: "Halvard Johnson" > >To: "New-Poetry" > >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:37:17 -0400 > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Still" > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > >Still > > > >The sleeping urgencies are perhaps ruined now > >in the soul's haphazard sanctuary, > >ignored like a household > >dormant in the landscape, a backwoods dump > >where the last care has worn through its last > >memory. We might think of this as a blessing > >as we thrash in the nocturnal waste: > >rubble of doors, fat layers of fiber > >drooping under the eaves, weeds > >leaning in lassitude after heavy rain > >has surged from a whitened sky. > >Thunder blooms unevenly in unknowable places > >breaking distance into startling new chambers > >we cannot enter; potentially, a revelation. > > > >*Deep Midnight*, a song on the Chinese zither. > >This must be long after the storm, long > >after the revolution. It seems some things > >were kept in storage after all: cool air > >quietly throbbing, a few candles, chance songs > >*Soul to Soul* on the radio. Chance is a variant > >of change, the weather changing, chancy > >but destined. Our trust is that we, too, are > >forms attached to content, content to meanings > >aroused. It is our custom to bring things about. > > > >--Ann Lauterbach > > > >fr. *If in Time: Selected Poems, 1975-2000* > >(New York: Penguin Poets, 2001) > > > > > >Hal > > > >Halvard Johnson > >=============== > >email: halvard at earthlink.net > >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 2 > >From: "Brandon Barr" > >To: , , > > , > > "UB Poetics discussion group" , > > , , > > , , > > > >Cc: "Brandon Barr" , > > "Garrett Lynch" > >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:39:49 -0400 > >Subject: [New-Poetry] The Banner Art Collective announces redesign > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >***Apologies in advance for cross-posting*** > > > >24 October 2002 > > > >The Banner Art Collective (http://bannerart.org) has implemented a new > >design created by Garrett Lynch. The new design brings a vast number of > >improvements to the site, which collects and distributes net.art and poetry > >created according to the limitations of WWW advertising. > > > >The collection is now database driven and easily searchable. Each work is > >presented on a separate page, and more artist information is featured next > >to each work. Viewers have always been able to access cut-and-paste html > >tags to place works from the collection on their own webpages, but now the > >site also offers users a php-driven script that, when added to any html > >document, serves randomly changing banners from the collection. > > > >In addition, the new design automates the submission process with an online > >form which artists can use to easily upload their works to the collection. > >There are also new frequently updated sections which contain news, links to > >host and sponsor sites, and links to related research and art projects. > > > >Best, > >Brandon Barr & Garrett Lynch > > > >---- > > > >The Banner Art Collective currently includes works by: > > > >arte_comprimido (Argentina) > >babel (Canada/UK) > >Brandon Barr (US) > >Ji B?t (France) > >Bruec (US) > >Christophe Bruno (France) > >Agricola de Cologne (Germany) > >Catherine Daly (US) > >Tom Dannecker (US) > >drivedrive.com > >Roberto Echen (Argentina) > >Joshua Goldberg (US) > >Lee French & Barry Small (UK) > >jimpunk (France) > >Kanarinka (US) > >Tamara La? (Belgium) > >Jessica Loseby (UK) > >Garrett Lynch (UK) > >Gerhard Mantz (Germany) > >Joseph Franklyn McElroy (US) > >Millie Niss (US) > >Alexandra Reill (Italy) > >Micha?l Sellum (France) > >Antoine Schmitt (France) > >Ana Maria Uribe (Argentina) > > > >---- > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 3 > >From: JforJames at aol.com > >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 14:40:07 EDT > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets Nominated North of Here > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >Shields, Johnston on Canada Book Award Shortlist > >Mon Oct 21,10:36 AM ET > > > >TORONTO (Reuters) - Carol Shields's novel "Unless" and Wayne Johnston's "The > >Navigator of New York" are among the finalists for the prestigious C$15,000 > >($9,600) Governor General's Literary Awards for Canadian fiction, nonfiction, > >poetry, drama, children's literature, and translation. > > > >Other finalists for the fiction category include David Bergen's "The Case of > >Lena S.", Ann Ireland's "Exile" and Gloria Sawai's "A Song for Nettie > >Johnson". > > > >Shield's novel, "Unless" has already received a nod from the Man Booker Prize > >and the Giller Prize, Canada's richest award for fiction. Johnston's "The > >Navigator of New York" is also short-listed for the Giller. > > > >Nominees for poetry are Tammy Armstrong for "Bogman's Music", Colin Browne > >for "Ground Water", Kathy Mac for "Nail Builders Plan for Strength and > >Growth", Roy Miki's "Surrender" and Erin Mour? for "O Cidad?n". > > > >The winners will be announced on November 12, 2002 in Toronto and Montreal. > >The awards will be presented on November 19, 2002 at Rideau Hall, the > >residence of the Governor General of Canada, in Ottawa. > > > >"The excitement, the quality of literature today in Canada is what strikes me > >in seeing the list of the finalists," said Governor General Adrienne > >Clarkson, who will be presenting the awards at the ceremony. > > > >"To be surprised and gratified by the writing we are seeing now is a great > >gift to us all." > > > >In addition to the $15,000 prize, the publisher of the winning book receives > >$3,000 to support promotional activities. For the first time this year, > >nonwinning finalists will each receive $1,000. > > > >The Governor General's Literary Awards have been around since 1937 and were > >at first not monetary prizes. They are currently administered by the Canada > >Council for the Arts. > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 4 > >From: TerryP17 at aol.com > >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 17:56:15 EDT > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia and NEA > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >Jim and Chryss-- > > > >In a message dated 10/24/02 8:52:48 AM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >writes: > > > >>> . And if the Dems retain control, this could get uncomfortable. It is > >> > >>always > >>> a contentious nomination. > >>Terry, havn't the Elephantines been the ones most ready to crush > >>the NEA? > > > >Right you are, Jim. And I still think NEA should go, given all the great and > >enduring art they've wasted our money on since the endowments were > >established. But, whatever . . . in the end, my position on this issue is the > >one that gets crushed, not the NEA! > > > >However, my point here was a different one. The Dems are currently > >sandbagging any and all Bush appointments by taking 12-18 months to bring > >them to a vote--if ever. My point is that the Dems will be in no hurry to > >move this nomination along. It's a way you screw the other party, by not > >letting their guys get into management. The Elephantines did it to Clinton. > >The Donkeys did it to Bush I and Reagan, ad infinitum. This is a swell town. > > > >One other comment from Chryss: > > > >< >the former chairs have come out of the government or military--Washington > >people, not arts people.>> > > > >Chryss, forgive me, but you need to read the newspapers more often. The > >original Bush appointee here was a well-regarded academic who died suddenly > >in office not long after his appointment. Clinton had actress Jane Alexander > >as his NEA head. Most NEA heads have been academics, not military or govies. > >I don't have the whole roster since the NEA was begun in the late 1960s as I > >recall, under Johnson. But brass hats don't sell in the NEA constituency. > >Gioia's appointment is neither unique nor exceptional in this regard. > > > >--Terry Ponick > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 5 > >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 15:58:09 -0700 > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia and NEA > >From: Chryss Yost > >To: > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >Gee, Terry, > >Please amend my remarks to include academics along with the government or > >military. My point was, there have not been many full-time artists > >appointed--meaning people making their living in the arts, not institutions. > >I believe Gioia and Jane Alexander are rather exceptional in this regard. > > > >On 10/24/02 2:56 PM, TerryP17 at aol.com wrote: > > > >> Jim and Chryss-- > >> > >> In a message dated 10/24/02 8:52:48 AM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> writes: > >> > >>>> . And if the Dems retain control, this could get uncomfortable. It is > >>> > >>> always > >>>> a contentious nomination. > >>> Terry, havn't the Elephantines been the ones most ready to crush > >>> the NEA? > >> > >> Right you are, Jim. And I still think NEA should go, given all the great and > >> enduring art they've wasted our money on since the endowments were > >> established. But, whatever . . . in the end, my position on this > >>issue is the > >> one that gets crushed, not the NEA! > >> > >> However, my point here was a different one. The Dems are currently > >> sandbagging any and all Bush appointments by taking 12-18 months to bring > >> them to a vote--if ever. My point is that the Dems will be in no hurry to > >> move this nomination along. It's a way you screw the other party, by not > >> letting their guys get into management. The Elephantines did it to Clinton. > >> The Donkeys did it to Bush I and Reagan, ad infinitum. This is a swell town. > >> > >> One other comment from Chryss: > >> > >> < >> the former chairs have come out of the government or military--Washington > >> people, not arts people.>> > >> > >> Chryss, forgive me, but you need to read the newspapers more often. The > >> original Bush appointee here was a well-regarded academic who died suddenly > >> in office not long after his appointment. Clinton had actress Jane Alexander > >> as his NEA head. Most NEA heads have been academics, not military > >>or govies. > >> I don't have the whole roster since the NEA was begun in the late 1960s as I > >> recall, under Johnson. But brass hats don't sell in the NEA constituency. > >> Gioia's appointment is neither unique nor exceptional in this regard. > >> > >> --Terry Ponick > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 6 > >From: "ganesha" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > >Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:33:33 +0800 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >Okay, but it won't be as much fun. > > > >Zan > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Halvard Johnson" > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 8:49 PM > >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > > > > > >> Now you stop that, Zan. It hurts when I laugh > >> too much. > >> > >> Hal "Imagination is more important > >> than knowledge." > >> --Albert Einstein > >> > >> Halvard Johnson > >> =============== > >> email: halvard at earthlink.net > >> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > >> > >> { What would ya'll consider "serious art" to be? > >> > >> { Zan > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 7 > >From: "ganesha" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > >Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:32:56 +0800 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >sigh. It's the same all over the world. You should see most of the > >mediocre rubbish supported by our national arts endowment agency. Still, I > >suppose it's better than most when it comes to poetry. > > > >Zan > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Bob Grumman" > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 6:35 PM > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > > > > > >> > What would ya'll consider "serious art" to be? > >> > > >> > Zan > >> > >> Why, Zan, you know my answer to that: the art *I* do, and nothing else. > >> > >> Okay, real answer: All art is serious. But for poIemical purposes, I > >> divide art into curated art, merchandised art and serious art. The NEA > >pays > >> attention only to the first two. Actually, it doesn't even pay attention > >to > >> those but to their curators and merchandisers--and, to less of an extent, > > > the performers involved. Being a creative artist, I wouldn't mind at all > >if > >> the NEA were abolished. Like all large-scale "arts-assisting" > >organizations > >> in this country I know of, it does nothing but lower the morale of the > >most > >> creative people in the arts, and increase the entrenchment of > >> medioctities--and anti-artists. > >> > >> --Bob G. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 8 > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >From: jpjones at ihug.com.au > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:14:13 EST > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> sigh. It's the same all over the world. You should see most of the > >> mediocre rubbish supported by our national arts endowment agency. Still, I > >> suppose it's better than most when it comes to poetry. > >> > >> Zan > > > > > >Hi Zan, > > > >Pretty broad kind of (typical, unsupported) statement - same as the 'serious > >art' one, whatever that is. I work for the Australia Council (don't make the > >decisions, mind but I do see what happens). I have my own views about what's > >mediocre - a lot of it comes to us and the Boards make decisions we may not > >always agree with (read between the lines there) but a lot of the mediocre > >happens anyway without our help - just look at what's published, performed, > >played, hung, exhibited by anyone, anywhere, anyhow. Mediocre suported and, > >yeah, good stuff misses out. Govt agencies aren't the only culprits. > > > >No system of government funding is perfect but this one (a form of peer > >assessment)is no better or no worse than any other. I don't know a lot about > >the US system so I won't comment on how it works. > > > >And poets do get some money - either directly through grants or indirectly > >through grants to mags, festivals, orgs etc. Hey, I think some good decisions > >are made and find all this negativity just a tad tiresome. Sometimes there are > >good grounds for it but it is just as often a result of artistic jealousy and > >sour grapes from the good and mediocre alike. And we see/hear/are subjected to > >it all in this office. > > > >Best, > >Jill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 9 > >From: "ganesha" > >To: > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > >Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:04:32 +0800 > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >Nice to know someone in power! And I did say that I thought your > >organisation was/is better than most other agencies when it comes to poets, > >eh? > > > >If you don't have much to pick from when it comes to the arts and awarding > >grants, well, as you say -- it isn't you people's fault. > > > >I have no axe to grind when it comes to funding. I ain't jealous of no one, > >neither. *g* Last bunch of grapes I ate was sweet, sweet -- juice ran down > >my neck, soaking my shirt. > > > >As to finding negativity tiresome, you hear/see/watch it all the time where > >you work. For the rest of us, it's just some vent time and place ... > > > >I, too, asked what serious art was, and have yet to receive a reply to that > >one. Apparently, though, poetry is included under the heading. > > > >Zan > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: > >Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:14 AM > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > > > > > >> > sigh. It's the same all over the world. You should see most of the > >> > mediocre rubbish supported by our national arts endowment agency. > >Still, I > >> > suppose it's better than most when it comes to poetry. > >> > > >> > Zan > >> > >> > >> Hi Zan, > >> > >> Pretty broad kind of (typical, unsupported) statement - same as the > >'serious > >> art' one, whatever that is. I work for the Australia Council (don't make > >the > >> decisions, mind but I do see what happens). I have my own views about > >what's > >> mediocre - a lot of it comes to us and the Boards make decisions we may > >not > >> always agree with (read between the lines there) but a lot of the mediocre > >> happens anyway without our help - just look at what's published, > >performed, > >> played, hung, exhibited by anyone, anywhere, anyhow. Mediocre suported > >and, > >> yeah, good stuff misses out. Govt agencies aren't the only culprits. > >> > >> No system of government funding is perfect but this one (a form of peer > >> assessment)is no better or no worse than any other. I don't know a lot > >about > >> the US system so I won't comment on how it works. > >> > >> And poets do get some money - either directly through grants or indirectly > >> through grants to mags, festivals, orgs etc. Hey, I think some good > >decisions > >> are made and find all this negativity just a tad tiresome. Sometimes there > >are > >> good grounds for it but it is just as often a result of artistic jealousy > >and > >> sour grapes from the good and mediocre alike. And we see/hear/are > >subjected to > >> it all in this office. > >> > >> Best, > >> Jill > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 10 > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >From: jpjones at ihug.com.au > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > >Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 22:34:57 EST > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >> Nice to know someone in power! And I did say that I thought your > >> organisation was/is better than most other agencies when it comes to poets, > >> eh? > > > >Zan, > >You did, but I think we also do OK with others as well. :-) > > > > > >> I have no axe to grind when it comes to funding. I ain't jealous of no one, > >> neither. *g* Last bunch of grapes I ate was sweet, sweet -- juice ran down > >> my neck, soaking my shirt. > > > >Sounds like a beautiful thing. I'd rather be writing (and I've been > >rejected in > >the past as well but this selfsame body) but a gal's gotta earn a quid or two. > >We tries our bests. > > > > > >> As to finding negativity tiresome, you hear/see/watch it all the time where > >> you work. For the rest of us, it's just some vent time and place ... > > > >But those who get vented on aren't the decision makers. After spending over an > >hour on the phone with a venter, receiving the benefit of the full spray, as a > >ventee you start to feel .. well, I'll leave you to imagine. Let > >alone the lack > >of grace one gets from those who were *successful* in getting a grant. (I kid > >you not.) Even when one looks on it as 'part of the job' it's only human to be > >affected by it. > > > > > >> I, too, asked what serious art was, and have yet to receive a reply to that > >> one. Apparently, though, poetry is included under the heading. > > > > > >Seriously?? > > > >best, > >Jill > > > > > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >Message: 11 > >Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:08:24 -0400 > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >From: Henry Gould > >Subject: [New-Poetry] piano music by Gould > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > >from: India Point > > > >7 > > > >On the skipping Bay, a ripple effect of > >myriad mirrors. . . and in the far dockyard > >a bright blue freighter, piled with iron bars > >like rusty blood (beneath the sky's bronze star). > > > >It turns there like a windvane, blue on blue > >for frosted Orpheus. Like an abstract > >or a sketch - someone's winter sleigh > >or chariot. Image of you, for you - > > > >lakeshore rim or emanation, sled-mark > >in the snow. An arctic ark's exact > >reflection's shadow shows the way. > >A forking lattice-work > > > >gives berth (some chill Epiphany) > >where northern lights spoke heaven - wheel. . . > > > > * > > > >A circle of cold cities, winter nests > >perched upon a plumbline (north-northwest). > > > >There where white-night ever-neverland > >is pencilled into twilight's other-same. > >A melancholy snowy hierosgamos - > >piney arrowheads, fixed at their end. > > > >The lead plumb bob draws out the poison > >so. Orpheus stands upright then, > >and spins - a little diddle-dreidle pin > >upon a barrel (hollow, tartared, frozen). > > > >And the cold light whistles down a blade > >from the Pole. And the barrel remembers > >the shape of the absent ship it harbors > >(aching coracle. . . love-stayed). > > > > 10.24.02 > > > >- Henry the Gould > > > > > > > >--__--__-- > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >End of New-Poetry Digest > > > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 26 10:20:59 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:20:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <01db01c27bd3$3fddeda0$41864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <00ad01c27cff$12064260$507cfea9@j1c1k6> > I, too, asked what serious art was, and have yet to receive a reply to that > one. Apparently, though, poetry is included under the heading. > > Zan I answered what serious art was: all art; I then said what serious art was for me when I'm polemicizing: art that is created for some reason other than to make money (or, though I didn't say it, to carry out some utilitarian function like getting people to vote for the right morons). Art would include poetry. I also polemically consider curated art, or art that just repeats received art, as not serious art. That is implicit in my phrase above, "art that is created" since curated art is not created but (more or less) copied. --Bob G. From elemenope at icubed.com Sat Oct 26 14:01:37 2002 From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 02:01:37 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Role of Government in the Art of Poetry In-Reply-To: <20021026161640.3FCE61033F@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <20021026161640.3FCE61033F@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: I am serious: At 12:16 PM -0400 10/26/02, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: >I at first thought you might be serious, for it sounds like a good idea to >me. But before you could do it properly, you'd have to have a list of >poetry genres--or, as I have it, schools of poetry. Determining recognized >masters would be hard, too. > >Not up to further comment on your other ideas, some of which are >interesting, and bias, which is not. (A government that will not allow >criticism, however psychotic, is not a government worth supporting.) But can't take seriously this remark: > >>(A government that will not allow >criticism, however psychotic, is not a government worth supporting.) Bias? I maintain, Mr. Grumman, that you are biased. You are biased to a radical "fair mindedness" that is not fair and not mindful. Why not include the poetry of the institutionally insane in the Library of Congress anthology? Charles Manson's quips? Government is all about eliminating from the public forum the psychotic. And so is erudite literary criticism of the kind Northop Frye embodied. (Let the ghost of Professor Frye decide the genres and their most expert practitioners.) Of course, prima facie, this statement is laughable since for obvious reasons Amiri Baraka, a man who hates his own country, is a paid government official of that selfsame government! Mr. Grumman's approach would be to permit, say, Osama Bin Laden, Jihadistan poet (His latest work is to be found in his Last Will and Testament released for our enlightenment in the last few days.) the opportunity to participate in a public recitation of anybody who wants to be in the anthology at the Library of Congress and to kill everyone after he was done. Amiri Baraka is a traitor and a treacherous louse. Being the Poet Laureate of a state that could permit its own laws from being transgressed by the people who wrote them (The Democrat Party) in the illegal replacement of Torricelli, Mr. Baraka has been afforded the license to curse and condemn the very ground upon which he has been privileged to prosper. Institutions like the JKIDP at Naropa of Boulder, Colorado led by self-proclaimed cultural terrorists are condemnable for supporting such hateful Barakaistic sedition and should have their government funding revoked. Unfortunately, anti-American seditionists wormed their way into the bureaucracies of government during the Clinton years in - hopefully - the last hurrah of the Radical Left in the history of the United States. This is why the appointment of Dana Gioia in this current time of Restoration is replete with hope. Mr. Grumman believes in Cognitive Dissonance, it seems, when what he really wants to achieve is The Keats Capability. RD > > >Message: 1 >From: "Bob Grumman" >To: >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Government's Role in the Art of Poetry >Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:33:04 -0400 >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > Every year the Library of Congress under the direction of the Poet >> Laureate should publish an anthology of great American poems. Each >> genre should be represented. > >I at first thought you might be serious, for it sounds like a good idea to >me. But before you could do it properly, you'd have to have a list of >poetry genres--or, as I have it, schools of poetry. Determining recognized >masters would be hard, too. > >Not up to further comment on your other ideas, some of which are >interesting, and bias, which is not. (A government that will not allow >criticism, however psychotic, is not a government worth supporting.) > >--Bob G. > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Sat Oct 26 14:30:20 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry_Gould at brown.edu) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:30:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] i.m. Paul Wellstone Message-ID: <200210261830.g9QIUKv06982@draco.services.brown.edu> i.m.Paul Wellstone Autumn raindrops travel down the clumps of dogwood leaves, like little folded capes of mottled maroon and green. The star in us (Paracelsus) droops toward November and Veteran's Day. 11th hour of 11th month, ticking slowly toward the end of the end... contemplative holidays, remembered glory (seedling Jubilees). On such days, when we say We, we say Time hurries on--no need to hurry on toward death. To those who would, we say--we aim for life, though the road be hard. The just man rises out of hell like the star in us--a stone from the well. 10.26.02 From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 26 17:02:29 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 17:02:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Role of Government in the Art of Poetry References: <20021026161640.3FCE61033F@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <013f01c27d32$ff9b4d80$507cfea9@j1c1k6> The Role of Government in the Art of PoetryOoops, here we go again.But can't take seriously this remark: (A government that will not allow criticism, however psychotic, is not a government worth supporting.) >Bias? I maintain, Mr. Grumman, that you are biased. You >are biased to a radical "fair mindedness" that is not fair and >not mindful. Why not include the poetry of the >institutionally insane in the Library of Congress anthology? >Charles Manson's quips? Read what I said, please. Allowing criticism of the government does not equal requiring acceptance of criticism in an anthology. >Government is all about eliminating from the public forum >the psychotic. No, totalitarianism is. Government, at its non-existent best, is about allowing individuals to hear and read whatever they want to and make up their own minds about it. And with that, I say good-bye, wack. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu Sun Oct 27 09:12:15 2002 From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 08:12:15 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily Message-ID: I have just learned that _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ has been the selected link for Verse Daily's Web Monthly Feature in October. If you are not familiar with the website, Verse Daily is located at the following: http://www.versedaily.org The monthly feature page is http://www.versedaily.org/webmonthly.shtml --Ed B. -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From Arielpf123 at aol.com Sun Oct 27 09:59:23 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 09:59:23 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Verse Daily Message-ID: <160.164ce989.2aed594b@aol.com> In a message dated 10/27/02 9:12:57 AM, Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu writes: << I have just learned that _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ has been the selected link for Verse Daily's Web Monthly Feature in October. >> Great!!! patf From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 27 23:39:17 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:39:17 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 Message-ID: <200210280438.g9S4cG1l028661@mx9.mx.voyager.net> Last time I looked, Billy Collins had not completed his list of poems for his Poetry 180 project. Now he has. http://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/ In case you're curious, as I was, what poems will be read in U.S. high schools, the full list follows--I'm not quite sure what this list indicates, but it's an interesting little anthology. A number of poems and poets new to me, but surprisingly few, given the project. It *is* clear that Collins *really* likes the poems of Thomas Lux, who has 7 of the 180. I noticed a number of others with 3 or 4 entries. All the poems are readable online, by the way, at the above address. Poetry 180 List of Poems and Authors 1 Introduction to Poetry Billy Collins 2 Sidekicks Ronald Koertge 3 The Summer I Was Sixteen Geraldine Connolly 4 The Blue Bowl Jane Kenyon 5 Lines Martha Collins 6 Daybreak Galway Kinnell 7 Naming the Stars Joyce Sutphen 8 Numbers Mary Cornish 9 Autobiographia G.E. Patterson 10 I'm A Fool To Love You Cornelius Eady 11 Passer-by, these are words... Yves Bonnefoy 12 The Bruise of This Mark Wunderlich 13 At the Other End of the Telescope George Bradley 14 Over and Over Tune Ioanna Carlsen 15 praise song Lucille Clifton 16 The Man into Whose Yard You Should Not Hit Your Ball Thomas Lux 17 An Infinite Number of Monkeys Ronald Koertge 18 The Farewell Edward Field 19 The Partial Explanation Charles Simic 20 Blackberry Eating Galway Kinnell 21 Henry Clay's Mouth Thomas Lux 22 Poem for Adlai Stevenson and Yellow Jackets David Young 23 Tour Carol Snow 24 After Us Connie Wanek 25 Domestic Work, 1937 Natasha Trethewey 26 Before She Died Karen Chase 27 Poetry Don Patterson 28 The Fathers Elizabeth Holmes 29 Advice from the Experts Bill Knott 30 One Morning Eamon Grennan 31 Unlike, for Example, the Sound of a Riptooth Saw Thomas Lux 32 Dearborn North Apartments Lola Haskins 33 The Meadow Kate Knapp Johnson 34 Gouge, Adze, Rasp, Hammer Chris Forhan 35 Imagining Defeat David Berman 36 The Printer's Error Aaron Fogel 37 She Didn't Mean to Do It Daisy Fried 38 Cartoon Physics, part 1 Nick Flynn 39 Snow David Berman 40 Driving to Town Late to Mail a Letter Robert Bly 41 In the Well Andrew Hudgins 42 St. Francis and the Sow Galway Kinnell 43 A Library of Skulls Thomas Lux 44 Swan Song Gerald Stern 45 The Old Liberators Robert Hedin 46 Grammar Tony Hoagland 47 Fault Ron Koertge 48 Thanks For Remembering Us Dana Gioia 49 The Road That Runs Beside the River Thomas Lux 50 Otherwise Jane Kenyon 51 No Return William Matthews 52 Womanhood Catherine Anderson 53 Selecting a Reader Ted Kooser 54 Song Eamon Grennan 55 Biscuit Jane Kenyon 56 The Panic Bird Robert Phillips 57 Marine Snow at Mid-Depths and Down Thomas Lux 58 Hamlet Off-Stage: Laertes Cool D.C. Berry 59 Lesson Forrest Hamer 60 Football Louis Jenkins 61 Sister Cat Frances Mayes 62 The Bagel David Ignatow 63 A Little Tooth Thomas Lux 64 For My Daughter David Ignatow 65 Song Beside a Sippy Cup Jenny Factor 66 The Moon Robert Bly 67 Watching the Mayan Women Luisa Villani 68 Bringing My Son to the Police Station to be Fingerprinted Shoshauna Shy 69 The Space Heater Sharon Olds 70 Sentimental Moment or Why Did the Baguette Cross the Road? Robert Hershon 71 Smoking Elton Glaser 72 Gratitude to Old Teachers Robert Bly 73 You Mustn't Show Weakness Yehuda Amichai 74 Near the Wall of a House Yehuda Amichai 75 To a Daughter Leaving Home Linda Pastan 76 June 11 David Lehman 77 A Birthday Candle Donald Justice 78 Doing Without David Ray 79 My Life Joe Wenderoth 80 Nuclear Winter Edward Nobles 81 After Years Ted Kooser 82 Small Comfort Katha Pollitt 83 In January Ted Kooser 84 Goalie Todd R. Nelson 85 Rotary Christina Pugh 86 Goodbye to the Old Life Wesley McNair 87 Alley Cat Love Song Dana Gioia 88 The Exchange Ron Rash 89 Dutch Kay Ryan 90 A New Poet Linda Pastan 91 The Streetsweeper Ronald Koertge 92 Birth Day Elise Paschen 93 Relearning Winter Mark Svenvold 94 My Daughters in New York James Reiss 95 From On Being Fired Again Erin Belieu 96 On Not Flying to Hawaii Alison Luterman 97 Invisible Work Alison Luterman 98 My Father's Hats Mark Irwin 99 Of Politics & Art Norman Dubie 100 Loud Music Stephen Dobyn 101 Some Clouds Steve Kowit 102 A Wreath to the Fish Nancy Willard 103 ballplayer Evie Shockley 104 The Other World Robert Wrigley 105 A Birthday Poem Ted Kooser 106 The Grammar Lesson Steve Kowit 107 Blind Charles Webb 108 Halloween Mac Hammond 109 Fast Break Edward Hirsch 110 On a Cape May Warbler Who Flew Against My Window Eamon Grennan 111 The Kitchen Shears Speak Christianne Balk 112 Saturday At The Canal Gary Soto 113 Lift Your Right Arm Peter Cherches 114 Machines Michael Donaghy 115 The Death of Santa Claus Charles Webb 116 Cat Scat Eamon Grennan 117 Ladies and Gentlemen in Outer Space Ron Padgett 118 Notice Steve Kowit 119 Thanksgiving Mac Hammond 120 The Swan at Edgewater Park Ruth L. Schwartz 121 The Blizzard Phillis Levin 122 Where Is She? Peter Cherches 123 Coffee in the Afternoon Alberto R?os 124 Morning Mary Oliver 125 Animals Miller Williams 126 God Says Yes To Me Kaylin Haught 127 The Perfect Heart Shara McCallum 128 The Student Theme Ronald Wallace 129 The Birthday Elizabeth Seydel Morgan 130 Witness Martha Collins 131 Not Swans Susan Ludvigson 132 I Wish In The City Of Your Heart Robley Wilson 133 The Summer Day Mary Oliver 134 One Day A Woman Miller Williams 135 Walking to Oak-Head Pond, and Thinking of the Ponds I Will Visit in the Next Days and Weeks Mary Oliver 136 Who Burns for the Perfection of Paper Martin Espada 137 Wan Chu's Wife In Bed Richard Jones 138 This Moment Eavan Boland 139 How Many Times Marie Howe 140 The Dead Susan Mitchell 141 The End and the Beginning Wislawa Szymborska 142 Locals James Lasdun 143 Social Security Terence Winch 144 Smell and Envy Douglas Goetsch 145 The Yawn Paul Blackburn 146 Blue Willow Jody Gladding 147 Tuesday 9:00 AM Denver Butson 148 Ordinance On Arrival Naomi Lazard 149 Her Head Joan Murray 150 96 Vandam Gerald Stern 151 My Moral Life Mark Halliday 152 It Took All My Energy Tony Wallace 153 Once upon a Time There Was a Man Mac Hammond 154 Forgiving Buckner John Hodgen 155 Legs Mark Halliday 156 Dandelion Julie Lechevsky 157 Heat Michael Chitwood 158 Forgotten Planet Doug Dorph 159 Loyal William Matthews 160 Dutch Boy Doug Dorph 161 Key To The Highway Mark Halliday 162 Herd Of Buffalo Crossing The Missouri On Ice William Matthews 163 Mentor Timothy Murphy 164 Unconditional Day Julie Lechevsky 165 The Rider Naomi Shihab Nye 166 Kyrie Tomas Transtr?mer 167 The Last Wolf Mary Tallmountain 168 Gee, You?re So Beautiful That It?s Starting to Rain Richard Brautigan 169 Schoolboys with Dog, Winter William Matthews 170 Summer in a Small Town Linda Gregg 171 Entrance Dana Gioia 172 How to Listen Major Jackson 173 Immortality Lisel Mueller 174 Our Other Sister Jeffrey Harrison 175 Gretel Andrea Hollander Budy 176 How to Change a Frog Into a Prince Anna Denise 177 Eagle Plain Robert Francis 178 End of April Phillis Levin 179 Bike Ride with Older Boys Laura Kasischke 180 Break Dorianne Laux The Library of Congress Washington, D.C. poetry180 at loc.gov (10/9/2002) ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Oct 28 00:37:52 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 00:37:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 Message-ID: <180.10478705.2aee2730@cs.com> In a message dated 10/27/2002 10:38:57 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > Last time I looked, Billy Collins had not completed his list of poems for > his Poetry 180 project. Now he has. > > http://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/ How many poems by Thomas Lux does America need? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 28 05:54:48 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 05:54:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 References: <200210280438.g9S4cG1l028661@mx9.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <002c01c27e70$6faf6dc0$c819fea9@j1c1k6> Just to beat my near-silent drum once again to say that this collection of poems is just the kind of thing that makes the need of a widely-publicized list of poetry schools so necessary. Anyone who complains about Collins's selections by asking why so-and-so's poems were left off will just be told that Collins only could make so many selections. Which is reasonable. But someone asking why whole schools of poetry were ignored may get people understanding how unfair the list is. And it is even a "constructive" question inasmuch as it doesn't imply that the poems in the collection are inferior to ones not in it, only that they don't represent anywhere near the full range of good American poems. --Bob G. But----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 11:39 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 Last time I looked, Billy Collins had not completed his list of poems for his Poetry 180 project. Now he has. http://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/ In case you're curious, as I was, what poems will be read in U.S. high schools, the full list follows--I'm not quite sure what this list indicates, but it's an interesting little anthology. A number of poems and poets new to me, but surprisingly few, given the project. It *is* clear that Collins *really* likes the poems of Thomas Lux, who has 7 of the 180. I noticed a number of others with 3 or 4 entries. All the poems are readable online, by the way, at the above address. Poetry 180 List of Poems and Authors 1 Introduction to Poetry Billy Collins 2 Sidekicks Ronald Koertge 3 The Summer I Was Sixteen Geraldine Connolly 4 The Blue Bowl Jane Kenyon 5 Lines Martha Collins 6 Daybreak Galway Kinnell 7 Naming the Stars Joyce Sutphen 8 Numbers Mary Cornish 9 Autobiographia G.E. Patterson 10 I'm A Fool To Love You Cornelius Eady 11 Passer-by, these are words... Yves Bonnefoy 12 The Bruise of This Mark Wunderlich 13 At the Other End of the Telescope George Bradley 14 Over and Over Tune Ioanna Carlsen 15 praise song Lucille Clifton 16 The Man into Whose Yard You Should Not Hit Your Ball Thomas Lux 17 An Infinite Number of Monkeys Ronald Koertge 18 The Farewell Edward Field 19 The Partial Explanation Charles Simic 20 Blackberry Eating Galway Kinnell 21 Henry Clay's Mouth Thomas Lux 22 Poem for Adlai Stevenson and Yellow Jackets David Young 23 Tour Carol Snow 24 After Us Connie Wanek 25 Domestic Work, 1937 Natasha Trethewey 26 Before She Died Karen Chase 27 Poetry Don Patterson 28 The Fathers Elizabeth Holmes 29 Advice from the Experts Bill Knott 30 One Morning Eamon Grennan 31 Unlike, for Example, the Sound of a Riptooth Saw Thomas Lux 32 Dearborn North Apartments Lola Haskins 33 The Meadow Kate Knapp Johnson 34 Gouge, Adze, Rasp, Hammer Chris Forhan 35 Imagining Defeat David Berman 36 The Printer's Error Aaron Fogel 37 She Didn't Mean to Do It Daisy Fried 38 Cartoon Physics, part 1 Nick Flynn 39 Snow David Berman 40 Driving to Town Late to Mail a Letter Robert Bly 41 In the Well Andrew Hudgins 42 St. Francis and the Sow Galway Kinnell 43 A Library of Skulls Thomas Lux 44 Swan Song Gerald Stern 45 The Old Liberators Robert Hedin 46 Grammar Tony Hoagland 47 Fault Ron Koertge 48 Thanks For Remembering Us Dana Gioia 49 The Road That Runs Beside the River Thomas Lux 50 Otherwise Jane Kenyon 51 No Return William Matthews 52 Womanhood Catherine Anderson 53 Selecting a Reader Ted Kooser 54 Song Eamon Grennan 55 Biscuit Jane Kenyon 56 The Panic Bird Robert Phillips 57 Marine Snow at Mid-Depths and Down Thomas Lux 58 Hamlet Off-Stage: Laertes Cool D.C. Berry 59 Lesson Forrest Hamer 60 Football Louis Jenkins 61 Sister Cat Frances Mayes 62 The Bagel David Ignatow 63 A Little Tooth Thomas Lux 64 For My Daughter David Ignatow 65 Song Beside a Sippy Cup Jenny Factor 66 The Moon Robert Bly 67 Watching the Mayan Women Luisa Villani 68 Bringing My Son to the Police Station to be Fingerprinted Shoshauna Shy 69 The Space Heater Sharon Olds 70 Sentimental Moment or Why Did the Baguette Cross the Road? Robert Hershon 71 Smoking Elton Glaser 72 Gratitude to Old Teachers Robert Bly 73 You Mustn't Show Weakness Yehuda Amichai 74 Near the Wall of a House Yehuda Amichai 75 To a Daughter Leaving Home Linda Pastan 76 June 11 David Lehman 77 A Birthday Candle Donald Justice 78 Doing Without David Ray 79 My Life Joe Wenderoth 80 Nuclear Winter Edward Nobles 81 After Years Ted Kooser 82 Small Comfort Katha Pollitt 83 In January Ted Kooser 84 Goalie Todd R. Nelson 85 Rotary Christina Pugh 86 Goodbye to the Old Life Wesley McNair 87 Alley Cat Love Song Dana Gioia 88 The Exchange Ron Rash 89 Dutch Kay Ryan 90 A New Poet Linda Pastan 91 The Streetsweeper Ronald Koertge 92 Birth Day Elise Paschen 93 Relearning Winter Mark Svenvold 94 My Daughters in New York James Reiss 95 From On Being Fired Again Erin Belieu 96 On Not Flying to Hawaii Alison Luterman 97 Invisible Work Alison Luterman 98 My Father's Hats Mark Irwin 99 Of Politics & Art Norman Dubie 100 Loud Music Stephen Dobyn 101 Some Clouds Steve Kowit 102 A Wreath to the Fish Nancy Willard 103 ballplayer Evie Shockley 104 The Other World Robert Wrigley 105 A Birthday Poem Ted Kooser 106 The Grammar Lesson Steve Kowit 107 Blind Charles Webb 108 Halloween Mac Hammond 109 Fast Break Edward Hirsch 110 On a Cape May Warbler Who Flew Against My Window Eamon Grennan 111 The Kitchen Shears Speak Christianne Balk 112 Saturday At The Canal Gary Soto 113 Lift Your Right Arm Peter Cherches 114 Machines Michael Donaghy 115 The Death of Santa Claus Charles Webb 116 Cat Scat Eamon Grennan 117 Ladies and Gentlemen in Outer Space Ron Padgett 118 Notice Steve Kowit 119 Thanksgiving Mac Hammond 120 The Swan at Edgewater Park Ruth L. Schwartz 121 The Blizzard Phillis Levin 122 Where Is She? Peter Cherches 123 Coffee in the Afternoon Alberto R?os 124 Morning Mary Oliver 125 Animals Miller Williams 126 God Says Yes To Me Kaylin Haught 127 The Perfect Heart Shara McCallum 128 The Student Theme Ronald Wallace 129 The Birthday Elizabeth Seydel Morgan 130 Witness Martha Collins 131 Not Swans Susan Ludvigson 132 I Wish In The City Of Your Heart Robley Wilson 133 The Summer Day Mary Oliver 134 One Day A Woman Miller Williams 135 Walking to Oak-Head Pond, and Thinking of the Ponds I Will Visit in the Next Days and Weeks Mary Oliver 136 Who Burns for the Perfection of Paper Martin Espada 137 Wan Chu's Wife In Bed Richard Jones 138 This Moment Eavan Boland 139 How Many Times Marie Howe 140 The Dead Susan Mitchell 141 The End and the Beginning Wislawa Szymborska 142 Locals James Lasdun 143 Social Security Terence Winch 144 Smell and Envy Douglas Goetsch 145 The Yawn Paul Blackburn 146 Blue Willow Jody Gladding 147 Tuesday 9:00 AM Denver Butson 148 Ordinance On Arrival Naomi Lazard 149 Her Head Joan Murray 150 96 Vandam Gerald Stern 151 My Moral Life Mark Halliday 152 It Took All My Energy Tony Wallace 153 Once upon a Time There Was a Man Mac Hammond 154 Forgiving Buckner John Hodgen 155 Legs Mark Halliday 156 Dandelion Julie Lechevsky 157 Heat Michael Chitwood 158 Forgotten Planet Doug Dorph 159 Loyal William Matthews 160 Dutch Boy Doug Dorph 161 Key To The Highway Mark Halliday 162 Herd Of Buffalo Crossing The Missouri On Ice William Matthews 163 Mentor Timothy Murphy 164 Unconditional Day Julie Lechevsky 165 The Rider Naomi Shihab Nye 166 Kyrie Tomas Transtr?mer 167 The Last Wolf Mary Tallmountain 168 Gee, You?re So Beautiful That It?s Starting to Rain Richard Brautigan 169 Schoolboys with Dog, Winter William Matthews 170 Summer in a Small Town Linda Gregg 171 Entrance Dana Gioia 172 How to Listen Major Jackson 173 Immortality Lisel Mueller 174 Our Other Sister Jeffrey Harrison 175 Gretel Andrea Hollander Budy 176 How to Change a Frog Into a Prince Anna Denise 177 Eagle Plain Robert Francis 178 End of April Phillis Levin 179 Bike Ride with Older Boys Laura Kasischke 180 Break Dorianne Laux The Library of Congress Washington, D.C. poetry180 at loc.gov (10/9/2002) ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Oct 28 08:42:42 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:42:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 In-Reply-To: <002c01c27e70$6faf6dc0$c819fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost> Grumman: > ... someone asking why whole schools of poetry were > ignored may get people understanding how unfair the list is. << Well, what whole schools were ignored? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Oct 28 10:21:53 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:21:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 In-Reply-To: <200210280438.g9S4cG1l028661@mx9.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3DBD0FC1.29067.83AAC5@localhost> A parody site where you can drag and drop a selection of phrases GW Bush has said into several lines and play the resulting "speech" in Bush's "voice". http://www.lemonbovril.co.uk/bushspeech/ Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Oct 28 10:40:58 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:40:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA In-Reply-To: <00ad01c27cff$12064260$507cfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DBD143A.31103.95206F@localhost> On 26 Oct 2002 at 10:20, Bob Grumman wrote: > ... what serious art was for me when I'm polemicizing: art that is > created for some reason other than to make money (or, though I didn't say > it, to carry out some utilitarian function like getting people to vote for > the right morons). ...<< Does this mean that the moment an artist DOES make money at his or her art his or her art becomes non-serious? Or is it all about intent? And how do you judge the intent of an artist who can rely on his or her art being sold for money? Are you saying that any artist who actually makes a living by producing art cannot by your polemical definition be a serious artist? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Oct 28 11:51:27 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:51:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Down and Out (Practically) in NYC Message-ID: If you remember Taylor Mead from the halcyon daze of Ginsberg, O'Hara, Warhol, et al., you might be interested in this *Village Voice* piece on his current situation. http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0243/carr.php Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Oct 28 12:22:24 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:22:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Bernadette Mayer, "Essay" Message-ID: Essay I guess it's too late to live on the farm I guess it's too late to move to a farm I guess it's too late to start farming I guess it's too late to begin farming I guess we'll never have a farm I guess we're too old to do farming I guess we couldn't afford to buy a farm anyway I guess we're not suited to being farmers I guess we'll never have a farm now I guess farming is not in the cards now I guess Lewis wouldn't make a good farmer I guess I can't expect we'll ever have a farm now I guess I have to give up all my dreams of being a farmer I guess I'll never be a farmer now We couldn't get a farm anyway though Allen Ginsberg got one late in life Maybe someday I'll have a big garden I guess farming is really out Feeding the pigs and the chickens, walking between miles of rows of crops I guess farming is just too difficult We'll never have a farm Too much work and still to be poets Who are the farmer poets Was there ever a poet who had a self-sufficient farm Flannery O'Connor raised peacocks And Wendell Berry has a farm Faulkner may have farmed little And Robert Frost had farmland And someone told me Samuel Beckett farmed Very few poets are real farmers If William Carlos Williams could be a doctor and Charlie Vermont too, Why not a poet who was also a farmer Of course there was Brook Farm And Virgil raised bees Perhaps some poets of the past were overseers of farmers I guess poets tend to live more momentarily Than life on a farm would allow You could never leave the farm to give a reading Or go to a lecture by Emerson in Concord I don't want to be a farmer but my mother was right I should never have tried to rise out of the proletariat Unless I can convince myself as Satan argues with Eve That we are among a proletariat of poets of all the classes Each ill-paid and surviving on nothing Or on as little as one needs to survive Steadfast as any farmer and fixed as the stars Tenants of a vision we rent out endlessly --Bernadette Mayer fr. *The Golden Book of Words* (New York: Angel Hair, 1978) Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From ron.silliman at verizon.net Mon Oct 28 12:36:51 2002 From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:36:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently on the Blog In-Reply-To: <20021028170102.6D91B1034F@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <000301c27ea8$9dc7d5c0$f306c143@Dell> Canadian poetry = New American Poetry minus the NY School. Why? The quotidian in poetry - it's not adjunct to the work Narrative Drive: what is it? Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar, v.1.1 Poetry on CDs: Edwin Torres' Please, Arundo's Triumph of the Damned How CDs present poetry: the Short Fuse CD Reading Jena Osman's "Starred Together" Jena Osman on Chain Performance poetry & the problems of historical memory Performance poetry on the page Short Fuse: The Global Anthology of New Fusion Poetry The problem of succession for bookstores & publishers Dialects in American English http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ From JforJames at aol.com Mon Oct 28 14:02:08 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:02:08 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] PoeticVoices site Message-ID: <3c.26b96c1d.2aeee3b0@aol.com> http://www.poeticvoices.com/ From JforJames at aol.com Mon Oct 28 14:10:31 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:10:31 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets Seizing the Reins of Power? Message-ID: <142.16714b6.2aeee5a7@aol.com> Someone pointed out to me that D Gioia's probable appointment comes on the heels of another high-profile position going to a poet... Sept. 3, 2002 Edward Hirsch appointed President of the Guggenheim Foundation The John Simon Guggenheim Memorial Foundation has named a prize-winning poet and scholar to succeed Joel Conarroe, who will step down as president in January after seventeen years in office. Edward Hirsch, the president-elect, is the author of five books of poetry (with another forthcoming), three books of non-fiction, and numerous essays in The New Yorker, The New York Review of Books, and elsewhere. Awarded a Guggenheim Fellowship in 1985, he is currently completing a five-year term as a MacArthur Fellow. The John and Rebecca Moores Professor at the University of Houston, he holds a Ph.D. in Folklore from the University of Pennsylvania, as well as honorary degrees from several institutions. Mr. Hirsch won the poetry prize of the National Book Critics Circle in 1987 for Wild Gratitude, and was awarded the William Riley Parker Prize from the Modern Language Association for the best scholarly essay in PMLA for the year 1991. The author of a weekly column on poetry for the Washington Post Book World, he has given readings and lectures throughout the world, most recently in Poland, and has for the past several years served on the Guggenheim Foundation's Committee of Selection. "There is nobody," Joel Conarroe has said, "better suited by intelligence, imagination, and temperament to lead the Foundation at this particular time. I am delighted to be leaving an institution I cherish in such capable hands." (Mr. Conarroe, in addition to presiding over the Foundation, is president of PEN American Center.) Joseph A. Rice, the Foundation's Chairman, led the search committee during several months of considering nominations and interviewing candidates. "All of us on the Board," he said, "are extremely pleased to welcome so gifted, productive, and impressive an individual to this important position. We are confident that Edward Hirsch will maintain the high standards that have always characterized the selection of Guggenheim Fellows." Established in 1925 by Senator Simon Guggenheim and Mrs. Guggenheim as a memorial to a son who died at age seventeen, the Foundation offers year-long fellowships to artists, scholars, and scientists through a yearly competition. Edward Hirsch will be only the fourth presiding officer in the Foundation's seventy-eight year history. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Oct 28 14:57:44 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:57:44 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets Seizing the Reins of Power? In-Reply-To: <142.16714b6.2aeee5a7@aol.com> Message-ID: on 10/28/02 1:10 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Someone pointed out to me that D Gioia's probable > appointment comes on the heels of another high-profile > position going to a poet... > > Sept. 3, 2002 > Edward Hirsch appointed President of the Guggenheim Foundation > > The John Simon Guggenheim Memorial Foundation has named a prize-winning poet > and scholar to succeed Joel Conarroe, who will step down as president in > January after seventeen years in office. Edward Hirsch, the president-elect, > is the author of five books of poetry (with another forthcoming), three books > of non-fiction, and numerous essays in The New Yorker, The New York Review of > Books, and elsewhere. Awarded a Guggenheim Fellowship in 1985, he is > currently completing a five-year term as a MacArthur Fellow. The John and > Rebecca Moores Professor at the University of Houston, he holds a Ph.D. in > Folklore from the University of Pennsylvania, as well as honorary degrees > from several institutions. > > Mr. Hirsch won the poetry prize of the National Book Critics Circle in 1987 > for Wild Gratitude, and was awarded the William Riley Parker Prize from the > Modern Language Association for the best scholarly essay in PMLA for the year > 1991. The author of a weekly column on poetry for the Washington Post Book > World, he has given readings and lectures throughout the world, most recently > in Poland, and has for the past several years served on the Guggenheim > Foundation's Committee of Selection. > > "There is nobody," Joel Conarroe has said, "better suited by intelligence, > imagination, and temperament to lead the Foundation at this particular time. > I am delighted to be leaving an institution I cherish in such capable hands." > (Mr. Conarroe, in addition to presiding over the Foundation, is president of > PEN American Center.) Joseph A. Rice, the Foundation's Chairman, led the > search committee during several months of considering nominations and > interviewing candidates. "All of us on the Board," he said, "are extremely > pleased to welcome so gifted, productive, and impressive an individual to > this important position. We are confident that Edward Hirsch will maintain > the high standards that have always characterized the selection of Guggenheim > Fellows." > > Established in 1925 by Senator Simon Guggenheim and Mrs. Guggenheim as a > memorial to a son who died at age seventeen, the Foundation offers year-long > fellowships to artists, scholars, and scientists through a yearly > competition. Edward Hirsch will be only the fourth presiding officer in the > Foundation's seventy-eight year history. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > POWER TO THE POETS! THE ACKNOWLEDGED LEGISLATORS OF THE WORLD! From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 28 16:26:40 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:26:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <3DBD143A.31103.95206F@localhost> Message-ID: <003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> > On 26 Oct 2002 at 10:20, Bob Grumman wrote: > > ... what serious art was for me when I'm polemicizing: art that is > > created for some reason other than to make money (or, though I didn't say > > it, to carry out some utilitarian function like getting people to vote for > > the right morons). ...<< Marcus replied: > Does this mean that the moment an artist DOES make money at his or > her art his or her art becomes non-serious? If it makes money during the artist's lifetime for what it is as poetry, it proves it was not serious art in the first place. >Or is it all about intent? That's what I say in my definition. >And how do you judge the intent of an artist who can rely on his or her art being sold for money? I can't, but I know from his reliance that he's not creating serious art. > Are you saying that any artist > who actually makes a living by producing art cannot by your polemical > definition be a serious artist? That's what I was implying, but I would make certain exceptions for those who make money from individual patrons. Painters can be serious and somehow luck into a buyer able to appreciate their art, and wealthy enough to subsidize it. Theoretically, a poet or composer could, too. I see nothing wrong with or necessarily inferior about art that makes money and/or puts tailfins on long-used forms. My point is that that kind of art is about all that grants-bestowing organizations like the NEA are interested in. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 28 16:33:31 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:33:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost> Message-ID: <006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> > Grumman: > > ... someone asking why whole schools of poetry were > > ignored may get people understanding how unfair the list is. << > > Well, what whole schools were ignored? I believe there is an archive of New Poetry posts you could hunt through to find my lists. It would be hard to pin down, though, since we have no list of schools of poetry agreeable to all, as I say we should. Also, I don't know what schools of poetry a lot of Collins's poets are in, though I strongly suspect he has no language poems, for instance, are in his collection, or visual poets. You could also go to About Poetry and find my essay on schools of poetry. Then check off each one you can find a poem in Collins's collection that would be from it. --Bob G. From chris at chrislott.org Mon Oct 28 16:39:18 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:39:18 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 In-Reply-To: <002c01c27e70$6faf6dc0$c819fea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s message of "Mon, 28 Oct 2002 05:54:48 -0500") References: <200210280438.g9S4cG1l028661@mx9.mx.voyager.net> <002c01c27e70$6faf6dc0$c819fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: "Bob Grumman" writes: > And it is even a "constructive" question inasmuch as it > doesn't imply that the poems in the collection are inferior to ones > not in it, only that they don't represent anywhere near the full range > of good American poems. Perhaps this isn't the implication Billy Collins has in mind at all, but just the opposite. If he was making a "best of" list (which is how I read it: the best 180 poems for an audience of 13-17), then he has no obligation to include every style you or I might want there, and any swathe of schools thus elevated is incidental. c From chris at chrislott.org Mon Oct 28 16:58:10 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:58:10 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 In-Reply-To: <006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s message of "Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:33:31 -0500") References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost> <006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: "Bob Grumman" writes: > I strongly suspect he has no language poems, for > instance, are in his collection, That would make sense. He is picking a list of the best poems, not a representative of "every me-too school of 'poetry' no matter how paltry and shallow the output." > or visual poets. An explicit part of his goal is to provide a poem for every day that can, for example, be read over the PA system in a school. This makes some genres relatively unfit for inclusion on this basis alone. c From chris at chrislott.org Mon Oct 28 16:59:37 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:59:37 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA In-Reply-To: <003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s message of "Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:26:40 -0500") References: <3DBD143A.31103.95206F@localhost> <003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: "Bob Grumman" writes: > If it makes money during the artist's lifetime for what it is as > poetry, it proves it was not serious art in the first place. On the absolute scale, or in every instance? If your poem nets you $10 and some author's copies, then this poem is not serious art? Or are only those non-serious enough to make a living wage exempt from seriousness? c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 28 17:08:23 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:08:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <3DBD143A.31103.95206F@localhost><003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <008101c27ece$8911c0c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> > > If it makes money during the artist's lifetime for what it is as > > poetry, it proves it was not serious art in the first place. > > On the absolute scale, or in every instance? If your poem nets you $10 > and some author's copies, then this poem is not serious art? Or are > only those non-serious enough to make a living wage exempt from > seriousness? > > c Remember, I'm using the term "serious" polemically. As for "make money," I mean what I think most people do by it: "make big bucks." (A poem that nets you $10, by the way, probably did not make money by any standard since it probably cost more in paper, ink, postage, light bulbs, food to keep the worker working on it, etc., than $10.) --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 28 17:11:54 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:11:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost><006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <008701c27ecf$06b747c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> > > I strongly suspect he has no language poems, for > > instance, are in his collection, > > That would make sense. He is picking a list of the best poems, not a > representative of "every me-too school of 'poetry' no matter how > paltry and shallow the output." That's your opinion. I am only stating that he is NOT showing the range of current American poetry. I do commend him, though, for choosing (I believe) the work of living poets over the already available work of dead poets. > > or visual poets. > > An explicit part of his goal is to provide a poem for every day that > can, for example, be read over the PA system in a school. This makes > some genres relatively unfit for inclusion on this basis alone. His narrow choice of a goal is one reason that he is guilty of doing what I say he did: fail to indicate the width of contemporary American poetry. I'm not even saying he SHOULD have done that, just that he failed to. --Bob G. From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Oct 28 17:29:30 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:29:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Poetry 180 Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F88@mail.ripon.edu> I think Poetry 180 is a quixotic notion at best. I'll let others discuss, if they wish, what poems Collins *should* have chosen to appeal to that age group. Personally, I think he made a mistake including so little rhyme. In my experience, students love rhyme. But in a larger sense, it's hard to imagine turning high school kids on to poetry by reading a poem over the P.A. Did *you* ever listen closely to official announcements in high school? I do like the idea of reading poems aloud sometimes without bringing out a lot of critical artillery. But probably that should happen in a class or other gathering, not at the same time you're announcing the lunch menu and cancellation of track practice. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From Cadaly at aol.com Mon Oct 28 18:14:39 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:14:39 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA Message-ID: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> He's got a poem by Terence Winch and a short one by Edward Field. He's got a LOT of humorous light verse by friends & supporters. I too wonder at the appropriateness of the poetry for the PA for the 12-17 crowd. For example, I love Jenny Factor's poem beside a sippy cup. I like Jenny a whole lot, and I like her poems. But, although I am aware there is a cadre of young mothers who are in the 12-17 age range, and many other young mothers who are still in high school when they are much older, and of course I know that many girls that age either take care of younger siblings or babysit, I really think it is alarming that this poem about exhaustion and mothering was chosen rather than, say, Jenny's poem about racism among little kids on the playground, like those teenagers are frequently hired to watch. Rather than including Daisy Fried's poem about being in the bathroom at a hell job with girls who didn't finish high school and are pregnant, something I would argue 50-75% of high school girls could identify with, he chose her book's title poem, a much less courageous choice. All in all, I am struck by how much the poems are like a middle aged person's idea of what high school kids think about rather than poems that might actually appeal to this most recent MTV generation, which has access to less alternative music (IMO the gateway to art for most people) than previous MTV generations, and is more clearly an independent cultural market, or be news, or mock the lunch menu. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Oct 28 18:26:21 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:26:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost> <006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <005301c27ed9$6dc49d00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Bob -- there's a reason why Collins doesn't have any language poets on his list -- he was trying to put together a list of accessible poetry that high school kids could relate to. That, of course, doesn't rule out visual poetry, which is in general pretty accessible. But I believe that another criterion was that it be possible to read the poems over a PA system in high schools. Anyway, this is it. It would have been a more inclusive list if it had included different schools of poetry. It would have been a vastly more sublime list if it had included several of my poems. But I think those are the wrong objections. I don't believe it's important to ask, "Is it representative? Does it include every kind of contemporary poem?" A more appropriate question would be, "Will at least some high school kids read these poems and get something out of them, and will at least some of those kids read more poetry?" If they do, then pretty soon they'll kick over the traces and start reading non-Collins-type poems, which will be all to the good, and I'm sure Collins would agree. If not, we're s**t out of Lux. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 > > Grumman: > > > ... someone asking why whole schools of poetry were > > > ignored may get people understanding how unfair the list is. << > > > > Well, what whole schools were ignored? > > I believe there is an archive of New Poetry posts you could hunt through to > find my lists. It would be hard to pin down, though, since we have no list > of schools of poetry agreeable to all, as I say we should. Also, I don't > know what schools of poetry a lot of Collins's poets are in, though I > strongly suspect he has no language poems, for instance, are in his > collection, or visual poets. > > You could also go to About Poetry and find my essay on schools of poetry. > Then check off each one you can find a poem in Collins's collection that > would be from it. > > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmcvay at patriot.net Mon Oct 28 18:26:07 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:26:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 In-Reply-To: <200210280438.g9S4cG1l028661@mx9.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: Well, I guess it's nice to see the usual tokens in there: Lucille Clifton and Gary Soto. Gwyn --- "Real as a raven" -- The Grateful Dead, "Easy To Love You," Mydland/Barlow From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Oct 28 18:33:10 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:33:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost> <006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <005301c27ed9$6dc49d00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <3DBDC936.16A6442A@earthlink.net> That's pretty much my take on it. Except: Why is everyone assuming the poems are to be read over the PA system? Maybe there's an English teacher who would read them aloud in class. My thought is: What do the chosen (poets) think about the implication that those particular poems are high-school-accessible poetry? Is the literacy bar lower? - Jim theoldmole wrote: > > Bob -- there's a reason why Collins doesn't have any language poets on his > list -- he was trying to put together a list of accessible poetry that high > school kids could relate to. > > That, of course, doesn't rule out visual poetry, which is in general pretty > accessible. But I believe that another criterion was that it be possible to > read the poems over a PA system in high schools. > > Anyway, this is it. It would have been a more inclusive list if it had > included different schools of poetry. It would have been a vastly more > sublime list if it had included several of my poems. But I think those are > the wrong objections. I don't believe it's important to ask, "Is it > representative? Does it include every kind of contemporary poem?" A more > appropriate question would be, "Will at least some high school kids read > these poems and get something out of them, and will at least some of those > kids read more poetry?" If they do, then pretty soon they'll kick over the > traces and start reading non-Collins-type poems, which will be all to the > good, and I'm sure Collins would agree. If not, we're s**t out of Lux. > > Tad > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Grumman" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 4:33 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 > > > > Grumman: > > > > ... someone asking why whole schools of poetry were > > > > ignored may get people understanding how unfair the list is. << > > > > > > Well, what whole schools were ignored? > > > > I believe there is an archive of New Poetry posts you could hunt through > to > > find my lists. It would be hard to pin down, though, since we have no > list > > of schools of poetry agreeable to all, as I say we should. Also, I don't > > know what schools of poetry a lot of Collins's poets are in, though I > > strongly suspect he has no language poems, for instance, are in his > > collection, or visual poets. > > > > You could also go to About Poetry and find my essay on schools of poetry. > > Then check off each one you can find a poem in Collins's collection that > > would be from it. > > > > > > --Bob G. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 28 18:42:31 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:42:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost> <006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <005301c27ed9$6dc49d00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <3DBDC936.16A6442A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00f201c27edb$af564780$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> > That's pretty much my take on it. Except: Why is everyone assuming the > poems are to be read over the PA system? Maybe there's an English > teacher who would read them aloud in class. Teachers have bulletin boards, too. Schools even have television, and announcements over them. > My thought is: What do the chosen (poets) think about the implication > that those particular poems are high-school-accessible poetry? Is the > literacy bar lower? > > - Jim > theoldmole wrote: > > > > Bob -- there's a reason why Collins doesn't have any language poets on his > > list -- he was trying to put together a list of accessible poetry that high > > school kids could relate to. > > > > That, of course, doesn't rule out visual poetry, which is in general pretty > > accessible. But I believe that another criterion was that it be possible to > > read the poems over a PA system in high schools. > > > > Anyway, this is it. It would have been a more inclusive list if it had > > included different schools of poetry. It would have been a vastly more > > sublime list if it had included several of my poems. But I think those are > > the wrong objections. I don't believe it's important to ask, "Is it > > representative? Does it include every kind of contemporary poem?" A more > > appropriate question would be, "Will at least some high school kids read > > these poems and get something out of them, and will at least some of those > > kids read more poetry?" If they do, then pretty soon they'll kick over the > > traces and start reading non-Collins-type poems, which will be all to the > > good, and I'm sure Collins would agree. If not, we're s**t out of Lux. > > Tad Right, and I do try to emphasize my statement is not necessarily an objection but a description. However, I think you'd hook more kids on poetry by giving them more kinds of poetry to get hooked on. Some kids who can't stand traditional poetry might like visual poetry or even certain language poems--and even gain an appreciation of traditional poetry as a result! (Because that's where all the new poetries are coming from.) --Bob G. From chris at chrislott.org Mon Oct 28 19:08:38 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:08:38 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 In-Reply-To: <3DBDC936.16A6442A@earthlink.net> (James Cervantes's message of "Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:33:10 -0700") References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost> <006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <005301c27ed9$6dc49d00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <3DBDC936.16A6442A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: James Cervantes writes: > That's pretty much my take on it. Except: Why is everyone assuming the > poems are to be read over the PA system? Maybe there's an English > teacher who would read them aloud in class. I should hope so. This just happened to be one of Collins' stated goals on the web site. > My thought is: What do the chosen (poets) think about the implication > that those particular poems are high-school-accessible poetry? Is the > literacy bar lower? There's a big storm brewing in those two questions. c From chris at chrislott.org Mon Oct 28 19:11:46 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:11:46 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA In-Reply-To: <008101c27ece$8911c0c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s message of "Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:08:23 -0500") References: <3DBD143A.31103.95206F@localhost> <003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <008101c27ece$8911c0c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: "Bob Grumman" writes: > Remember, I'm using the term "serious" polemically. As for "make > money," I mean what I think most people do by it: "make big bucks." (A > poem that nets you $10, by the way, probably did not make money by any > standard since it probably cost more in paper, ink, postage, light > bulbs, food to keep the worker working on it, etc., than $10.) Well, even a serious artist can get lucky and score a glossy publication that pays for itself in terms of an hourly wage. But considering that making money sometimes depends so little on the artist and so much on circumstance, big bucks seems like an inaccurate yardstick. A good, serious poet can have a poem of theirs adapted by a pop-star and suddenly make some big bucks (for at least a book or two), and it has basically nothing to do with their effort, same with a serious novel that gets made into (an often non-serious) movie. Doesn't seem fair to the folks who are just doing their writing job. c From chris at chrislott.org Mon Oct 28 19:25:00 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:25:00 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> (Cadaly@aol.com's message of "Mon, 28 Oct 2002 18:14:39 EST") References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> Message-ID: Cadaly at aol.com writes: > All in all, I am struck by how much the poems are like a middle aged > person's idea of what high school kids think about I'm struck more my how little the poems appear to be chosen on the basis of content at all. I don't know how that would work anyway (since this gets back to Jim's question about literacy and such), since it leads to a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of position. If you choose poems that are tied to actual high school experience, the "don't dumb it down" crowd will throw rocks. If you choose poems like those that moved *me* in high school, then the "you don't understand kids" will pelt you with pebbles. When I think back to high school poems, the ones I remember most are: "Richard Corey" and "To An Athlete Dying Young" and other poems like that. Imagine the accusations if he made that kind of list? But then I would hate to see a list which assumed that poetry's relevance depended upon similar personal experiences to the content. c From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Oct 28 20:19:26 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:19:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry 180 Message-ID: <200210290118.g9T1IQie023665@mx3.mx.voyager.net> >That's pretty much my take on it. Except: Why is everyone assuming the >poems are to be read over the PA system? Maybe there's an English >teacher who would read them aloud in class. Hope you're right, Jim. Here's what it says on Billy's Poetry 180 site, though: "Poetry 180 is designed to make it easy for students to hear or read a poem each day of the 180 days of the school year. I have selected the poems you will find here with high school students in mind. They are intended to be listened to, and I suggest that all members of the school community be included as readers. A great time for the readings would be following the end of daily announcements over the public address system." I'm pretty long in the tooth, but I do remember high school. Reading anything over the PA is a sure way to kill all interest. I envision stammering, half-hearted recitations by vice principals and student council presidents, myself. But even if the poems were read well by a sympathetic teacher in class, I think it's an uphill road, for a number of the reasons folks have already stated. I'm not bothered by the fact that the poems are unrepresentative of the fullness of American poetry so much as I suspect that Collins's taste might not converge too well with high school interests. I did a 10th grade class a few years back, and was struck by how much students liked rhyming poetry--Poe and Larkin being great hits (well, yes, I *did* read "They fuck you up, your mum and dad," among others, and I understand why Billy C. didn't include *that* one. . . .) For what it's worth, the one poet I've consistently had best success with, in terms of students going to the library later and seeking out his books, is (can you guess?) Russell Edson. I now do a Russell Edson Day in every poetry class I teach. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 28 22:14:20 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:14:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> Message-ID: <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> > I'm struck more my how little the poems appear to be chosen on the > basis of content at all. I don't know how that would work anyway > (since this gets back to Jim's question about literacy and such), > since it leads to a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of > position. If you choose poems that are tied to actual high school > experience, the "don't dumb it down" crowd will throw rocks. If you > choose poems like those that moved *me* in high school, then the "you > don't understand kids" will pelt you with pebbles. Hey, I got a great idea! Why not BOTH kinds of poems? Plus a few adventurous poems. Here's a less sarcastic suggestion: find some poet, if it's possible, who has written both a sure-fire crowd-pleaser AND a non-mainstream poem, and present them one after the other, suggesting at the end that maybe the easy poem indicated that the poet wasn't purposely baffling people with the other. Like showing some of Picasso's representational paintings and then his more interesting ones forces curable Philistines to respect the latter more. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 28 22:19:57 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:19:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <3DBD143A.31103.95206F@localhost><003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <008101c27ece$8911c0c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <014401c27efa$0f32b3a0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> > "Bob Grumman" writes: > > > Remember, I'm using the term "serious" polemically. As for "make > > money," I mean what I think most people do by it: "make big bucks." (A > > poem that nets you $10, by the way, probably did not make money by any > > standard since it probably cost more in paper, ink, postage, light > > bulbs, food to keep the worker working on it, etc., than $10.) > > Well, even a serious artist can get lucky and score a glossy > publication that pays for itself in terms of an hourly wage. But > considering that making money sometimes depends so little on the > artist and so much on circumstance, big bucks seems like an inaccurate > yardstick. A good, serious poet can have a poem of theirs adapted by a > pop-star and suddenly make some big bucks (for at least a book or > two), and it has basically nothing to do with their effort, same with > a serious novel that gets made into (an often non-serious) movie. > Doesn't seem fair to the folks who are just doing their writing job. > > c Well, there are exceptions to anything--but I also spoke of making money from the artwork as an artwork. That would also imply making money from it as itself rather than an adaptation. For instance, Hilary could leave Bill for me, and my poetry would make a bundle as a result, but not as art, only as celebricrap. --Bob G. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Oct 28 22:37:23 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:37:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry 180 References: <200210290118.g9T1IQie023665@mx3.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3DBE0273.1CEC598A@earthlink.net> David Graham wrote: > > > > For what it's worth, the one poet I've consistently had best success with, > in terms of students going to the library later and seeking out his books, > is (can you guess?) Russell Edson. I now do a Russell Edson Day in every > poetry class I teach. Ditto. Especially the one about the elephant bursting out of the damn house, and even better if you use some body-English. - Jim From chris at chrislott.org Tue Oct 29 00:25:05 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:25:05 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s message of "Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:14:20 -0500") References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: "Bob Grumman" writes: > Hey, I got a great idea! Why not BOTH kinds of poems? Plus a few > adventurous poems. Or how about ALL poems? > Here's a less sarcastic suggestion: find some poet, if it's possible, > who has written both a sure-fire crowd-pleaser AND a non-mainstream > poem, and present them one after the other, suggesting at the end that > maybe the easy poem indicated that the poet wasn't purposely baffling > people with the other. Like showing some of Picasso's representational > paintings and then his more interesting ones forces curable > Philistines to respect the latter more. This is familiar. It is amazing how many of my friends (and my wife's) have sudden and profound respect for her more abstract art after seeing that she used to do representational pieces and portraits (and still will if she's asked real nicely for a really good reason), and that she is *choosing* to do work that differs from that norm rather than being incapable of it. c From MerwinDame at aol.com Tue Oct 29 01:09:28 2002 From: MerwinDame at aol.com (MerwinDame at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 01:09:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] poetic trouble down san diego way... Message-ID: <1c8.c3f249.2aef8018@aol.com> for the love of god, i go to saunter the boulevards and back-alleys of paris for just two measly weeks -- and come home to san diego to find the kids have been misbehaving in my absence. goddamned kids. =;-) *muffy* ps) what are everybody's thoughts on the subject, anyway? i am DYING to know. California Poet Laureate Resigns Sat Oct 19, 2:59 AM ET By JIM WASSERMAN, Associated Press Writer SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) - California lost its first official poet laureate after he acknowledged lying on the resume about graduating from college. Quincy Troupe, appointed June 11 by Gov. Gray Davis, stated in his resignation letter: "I deeply regret my ill-advised decision to include inaccurate information on my curriculum vitae. While I attended Grambling College, I never earned a college degree." Davis spokesman Steve Maviglio said Friday the discrepancy arose during a routine background check for Troupe's confirmation by the state Senate. Davis accepted the resignation with regret. Maviglio said of Troupe, "He was extremely popular. His work was fantastic. He was loved among his students. It's a shame." In June, Davis picked Troupe, 62, from three finalists for the position, which includes a $10,000 honorarium to give readings across the state and raise the profile of poetry among school children. Troupe, a professor of creative writing and American and Caribbean literature at the University of California at San Diego, is author of 13 books, including six books of poetry. "Having been named poet laureate of the state of California was one of the high points in my career," Troupe said in a statement. "I am honored and privileged to have served in that position, albeit for a short time. It was never my intent to disappoint any of all the wonderful people who have been enormously supportive of me and who have expressed such pride in my appointment." Troupe said he looked forward to "turning my full attention" to continuing to teach at UC San Diego. Messages left after-hours for two university spokeswomen were not returned. It remained unclear Friday how Troupe will be replaced. California is one of 24 states with an official poet laureate. Troupe succeeded five poets appointed by the Legislature unofficially since 1915. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue Oct 29 01:27:00 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 01:27:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> The problem is -- Billy didn't have any good ideas when he was named Laureate, probably because he had no idea anyone was actually watching and taking it seriously, so he came up with this lame one, and now he's stuck with it. So...rather than keep beating this dead horse...let's suppose that by some bizarre quirk of fate, each ot us is first runner-up (none of us is likely to be Mr./Ms. Congeniality), and some nude pictures of Billy have just been discovered, and he has to resign as Laureate, and we have to take over the job. What's our Big Laureate Project? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 10:14 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the PA > > > I'm struck more my how little the poems appear to be chosen on the > > basis of content at all. I don't know how that would work anyway > > (since this gets back to Jim's question about literacy and such), > > since it leads to a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of > > position. If you choose poems that are tied to actual high school > > experience, the "don't dumb it down" crowd will throw rocks. If you > > choose poems like those that moved *me* in high school, then the "you > > don't understand kids" will pelt you with pebbles. > > Hey, I got a great idea! Why not BOTH kinds of poems? Plus a few > adventurous poems. > > Here's a less sarcastic suggestion: find some poet, if it's possible, who > has written both a sure-fire crowd-pleaser AND a non-mainstream poem, and > present them one after the other, suggesting at the end that maybe the easy > poem indicated that the poet wasn't purposely baffling people with the > other. Like showing some of Picasso's representational paintings and then > his more interesting ones forces curable Philistines to respect the latter > more. > > --Bob G. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 29 06:28:23 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:28:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> From: "theoldmole": > . . . rather than keep beating this dead horse...let's suppose that by some > bizarre quirk of fate, each ot us is first runner-up (none of us is likely > to be Mr./Ms. Congeniality), and some nude pictures of Billy have just been > discovered, and he has to resign as Laureate, and we have to take over the > job. What's our Big Laureate Project? I got a great one: ask people to send us the names of all the poetry schools they know with, if possible, a definition of the poetry of each and specimens of it.! I'd try to find out, too, who is believed to know the most about each school. I'd also try to get an anthology put together that contained work by every school of poetry in the US. It would have a chapter for each school edited by some authority on, and perhaps participant in, that school whom I would hope to find in the data I'd gotten for my list of schools of poetry. I would aim ultimately for an internet website where people could see the anthology, and go from any poem in it they liked to a definition of the school it was from, where to find more poems of its school or related schools, etc. I think a program that let someone read a poem, then click on a box that said "If you enjoyed this poem, you will probably enjoy:" Etc. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 29 06:39:13 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:39:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently on the Blog References: <000301c27ea8$9dc7d5c0$f306c143@Dell> Message-ID: <00a401c27f3f$ceaff360$976efea9@j1c1k6> > Canadian poetry = New American Poetry minus the NY School. Why? Sounds dumb. Probably the best Canadian poets, perhaps inspired by bp Nichol, have been visual and sound poets, and that ain't New American Poetry. I rather suspect there are also NY School Canadian poets, too. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Oct 29 08:47:52 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:47:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA In-Reply-To: <003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DBE4B38.12487.18DF59@localhost> > > On 26 Oct 2002 at 10:20, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > ... what serious art was for me when I'm polemicizing: art that is > > > created for some reason other than to make money (or, though I didn't > say > > > it, to carry out some utilitarian function like getting people to vote > for > > > the right morons). ...<< > > Marcus replied: > > Does this mean that the moment an artist DOES make money at his or > > her art his or her art becomes non-serious? Bob Grumman: > If it makes money during the artist's lifetime for what it is as poetry, it > proves it was not serious art in the first place.<< How much money? A single penny? Or "a living wage"? or something in between, something more? Where and how do you draw the line of "makes money during the artist's lifetime"? Marcus: > >And how do you judge the intent of an artist who can rely on his or her > art being sold for money? Bob Grumman: > I can't, but I know from his reliance that he's not creating serious art. His "reliance"? What do you mean by that? His "reliance" on the money he makes from it? What if he's already rich before he starts, and writes poetry? How do you figure out "reliance"? What if a teaching position is acquired based on an artist's otherwise-unremunerated work? Isn't the money from the teaching position *really* money for his or her art because the teaching position wouldn't exist for that artist without a "reliance" on that art? Marcus: > > Are you saying that any artist > > who actually makes a living by producing art cannot by your polemical > > definition be a serious artist? Bob Grumman: > That's what I was implying, but I would make certain exceptions for those > who make money from individual patrons. Painters can be serious and somehow > luck into a buyer able to appreciate their art, and wealthy enough to > subsidize it. Theoretically, a poet or composer could, too.<< Why is it in your view that if one and only one person buys the artist's art it can be "serious" but if two or more do it cannot? What if the artist is the scion of an already-wealthy family and has his or her own money? Can an artist be his or her own patron and then make what you'd consider "serious" art? And, of course, is ANY art made that doesn't sell to more than one person, or that is made by an already-wealthy person, by that reason alone "serious" art to you? Are Tony Bennett's paintings "serious art" because he made his money singing and gives away the money from the sale of the paintings to charity? Bob Grumman: > I see nothing wrong with or necessarily inferior about art that makes money > and/or puts tailfins on long-used forms. My point is that that kind of art > is about all that grants-bestowing organizations like the NEA are interested > in.<< Well, you've made it clear that you do see something "wrong with" and "necessarily inferior" to art you're not willing to characterize as "serious" by distinguishing "serious art" from an implicit "non- serious art" by saying you know what "serious art" is. You're trying to have it both ways, here, again: trying to say that some art, because the artist does not not or cannot or will not make money from it, is "serious" while everyone else's art is not "serious". You're making a claim that "serious" art is better than art that is not "serious" on the one hand, while saying that there is no difference between art that is "serious" and art that is not "serious" on the other. You can't have it both ways. Either your distinction has merit and what you call "serious" art is, in fact, "better" or your distinction has no merit and what you call "serious" art is not, in fact, "better". You can't have it both ways. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Oct 29 08:54:50 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:54:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 In-Reply-To: <006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DBE4CDA.32492.1F3DDD@localhost> > > Grumman: > > > ... someone asking why whole schools of poetry were > > > ignored may get people understanding how unfair the list is. << Marcus: > > Well, what whole schools were ignored? Grumman: > I believe there is an archive of New Poetry posts you could hunt through ...<< Well, this makes it easy, doesn't it! Aha. Well, Bob, I believe there is a list from Gioia that makes it clear that he doesn't ignore any "whole schools", somewhere in his voluminous correspondence and all his published books. Find it. Then you'll see just how wrong you are. But don't come whining to me to do the work of proving my own assertion, pal. I'm happy to see that you regard the burden of proof as being on the person who has to prove a negative, so I'm happy to assert that the burden of proof is on you to prove that Gioia has ignored any school of poetry. It's there, Bob -- now it's up to you to go find it! he he he! But if you don't want to be burdened with proving a negative, don't try to burden your interlocutors with a demand that they prove a negative. That sort of cheap rhetorical trick may work with language poets and mathemaku poets and other people who haven't got the requisite background in philosophy and poetry to keep from making such na?ve fundamental errors, but it won't work here. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Oct 29 09:05:48 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:05:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 In-Reply-To: <008701c27ecf$06b747c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DBE4F6C.3486.294997@localhost> Bob Grumman: > ... I am only stating that he is NOT showing the range of > current American poetry .... His narrow choice of a goal is one > reason that he is guilty of doing what I say he did: fail to > indicate the width of contemporary American poetry. I'm not even > saying he SHOULD have done that, just that he failed to. << Could you be a little more disingenuous, Bob? You use words such as "he is guilty of doing what I say he did: fail ..." and yet you want us to believe that you do NOT mean by that that you think he should have done otherwise!? What horse manure! You make it perfectly clear that you think that Collins's list is at least inadequate if not purposefully inadequate. I think you're trying to say that Collins, in his role as Poet Laureate, is *deliberately* trying to keep certain kinds of poetry obscure and uninfluential, and that you blame him, and people like him, for keeping some kinds of poetry obscure and uninfluential. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Oct 29 09:18:12 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:18:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DBE5254.7885.34A51D@localhost> Bob Grumman: > ... Like showing some of Picasso's representational paintings and then > his more interesting ones forces curable Philistines to respect the latter > more. But Picasso was not a "serious" artist, Bob -- he made quite a lot of money from his work in his lifetime. You are trying here to use a "popular" artist to make your "serious" case, and it just won't work. Your point fails -- again. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Oct 29 09:23:46 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:23:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA In-Reply-To: <014401c27efa$0f32b3a0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DBE53A2.7386.39BE26@localhost> > > "Bob Grumman" writes: > > > Remember, I'm using the term "serious" polemically. As for "make > > > money," I mean what I think most people do by it: "make big bucks."<< Well, what's "big bucks", Bob? Is it a living wage? Is it a prestigious teaching position? Is it the head of the NEA job? Is it the kind of money that Picasso made? You seem to have some sort of "sell-out" in the pejorative sense in mind here when you are trying, not very well, to articulate your objections to money-for-art -- a sort of sell-out that becomes magically non-pejorative when one sells out to one and only one "patron". BobGrumman: > Well, there are exceptions to anything--but I also spoke of making money > from the artwork as an artwork. That would also imply making money from it > as itself rather than an adaptation. For instance, Hilary could leave Bill > for me, and my poetry would make a bundle as a result, but not as art ...<< But what if the *reason* that Hillary left Bill was because of your poetry, and her confident expression that you'd write more was her commitment to you personally and financially -- that she'd become your "patron" by leaving Bill for you, to support you in your poetry? Isn't any poetry you write after that necessarily a sell-out because you've essentially accepted Hillary and her money for doing it? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Oct 29 09:06:35 2002 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:06:35 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 References: <3DBE4CDA.32492.1F3DDD@localhost> Message-ID: <017b01c27f54$68d89500$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> From: "Marcus Bales" " Well, this makes it easy, doesn't it! Aha. Well, Bob, I believe there is a list from Gioia that makes it clear that he doesn't ignore any "whole schools", somewhere in his voluminous correspondence and all his published books. " Does he ever mention John Crowe Ransom? Pound? He's hot-wired on Auden, and loves James Fenton. But there +are+ (as far as I can make out) limits around him. As a poet, he sings Auden-and-water, as a metricist, he's stuck with Sainsbury's _History of English Prosody_. Anyone tried to read his _Nosferatu_ libretto? EEEEK!!! Nothing of which detracts from the fact that he looks like a pretty much ideal choice to run the NFA board. Have I got the alphabet-soup right here? :-( Robin From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Oct 29 11:01:24 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:01:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry & $, ^, /// Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021029102244.00aadb00@postoffice.brown.edu> The chaos of (art, literature, poetry) and (money, schools, anthologies, government officialdom) is so vast & contradictory that Bob Grumman's bald statements can be both absurd and partly true. Marcus Bales' prosecutorial tone is the mark of over-simplification. Have been reading "Life of Forms in Art" by Henri Focillon. A book that Wallace Stevens found important for his later poems. See B.J. Leggett's excellent book, "Wallace Stevens and Poetic Theory". Focillon gives a kind of absolute value to "style". Style is a product of form. Form is NOT really dependent on or covalent with content: Form is a living force which "means" nothing beyond its own metamorphoses - forms grow, complicate, and die: primitive, classic, baroque are inadequate adjectives for what we can recognize as processes of change within the force-field of forms themselves. Forms propose possibilities and then take them to the limit. Nations, localities, subcultures also exhibit style, I think. In a democracy we are free to criticize the actions of public officials, including those chosen to be our style representatives (poet laureates). If I were Billy Collins (yikes!) I would try to avoid the bland, the homogenized, the ingratiating. If a style has no substance it's a kind of empty style, a winning rhetoric for which the reader is the loser. Substance or authenticity exhibits some independent awareness & working-out of expression for its own sake, and for the sake of the imaginative and real world (large or small, global or local, personal or trans-personal) which is the context of the effort. This doesn't mean the poem has to be eccentric or obscure. The odd thing about poetry is that it's more (or less) than rhetoric; its non-utilitarian aesthetic effect sticks in the craw. Henry From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Oct 29 11:27:18 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:27:18 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Message-ID: >Troupe, a professor of creative writing and American and Caribbean literature >at the University of California at San Diego, is author of 13 books, including >six books of poetry. A professor of American and Caribbean literature in a California University without a college degree? Odd, don't you think? Paul Lake From chris at chrislott.org Tue Oct 29 11:33:25 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:33:25 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s message of "Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:28:23 -0500") References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: "Bob Grumman" writes: > I'd also try to get an anthology put together that contained work by > every school of poetry in the US. It would have a chapter for each > school edited by some authority on, and perhaps participant in, that > school whom I would hope to find in the data I'd gotten for my list of > schools of poetry. Sounds like a recipe for incredible boredom. I want an anthology to show an editorial hand, to guide me. I would rather a collection tried to do this and failed than suffer through some ledger book trying to account for every conceivable school and style. But then, I like to read (and get excited by( novels, poetry, and short stories rather than the encyclopedia too. From ddstokes at telusplanet.net Tue Oct 29 11:52:02 2002 From: ddstokes at telusplanet.net (diana) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 09:52:02 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Canadian Poetry In-Reply-To: <00a401c27f3f$ceaff360$976efea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <002001c27f6b$84d62490$d41ab8a1@DFXNZ911> diana stokes ddstokes at telusplanet.net Greetings, To give Canadian poetry a formula ( Canadian poetry = New American Poetry minus NY School) is reaching way beyond science. In my experience, as a Canadian Poet, the wealth of our styles and insight into art is one that reflects our multicultural heritage and culture. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Oct 29 12:24:22 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:24:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Canadian Poetry Message-ID: In a message dated 10/29/2002 10:53:16 AM Central Standard Time, ddstokes at telusplanet.net writes: > From Richard Service to today's top poets such as Robert Hilles and > Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to writing. Say who? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ddstokes at telusplanet.net Tue Oct 29 12:38:01 2002 From: ddstokes at telusplanet.net (diana) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:38:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Canadian Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c27f71$f19d11f0$d41ab8a1@DFXNZ911> http://www.geocities.com/canadian_sf/pages/authors/atwood.htm http://www.writersunion.ca/h/hilles.htm http://www.mochinet.com/poets/yukon.html Say who? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From TerryP17 at aol.com Tue Oct 29 13:55:15 2002 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:55:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Liberating Libretti Message-ID: <7D7E0C39.3D704766.0083014E@aol.com> Robin, <> Interesting observation. How many libretti have you read lately? Upon what criteria does this one earn an "EEEK?" How might it compare to, say, Menotti's libretto for Barber's "Vanessa?" Or E. M. Forster's and Eric Crozier's libretto for Britten's "Billy Budd?" Or Carlisle Floyd's libretto for his own version of "Of Mice and Men?" Terry Ponick From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Oct 29 14:19:19 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:19:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Liberating Libretti In-Reply-To: <7D7E0C39.3D704766.0083014E@aol.com> Message-ID: { Robin, { { <> { { Interesting observation. How many libretti have you read lately? Upon what criteria does this one earn an "EEEK?" How { might it compare to, say, Menotti's libretto for Barber's "Vanessa?" Or E. M. Forster's and Eric Crozier's libretto { for Britten's "Billy Budd?" Or Carlisle Floyd's libretto for his own version of "Of Mice and Men?" { { Terry Ponick Or even the Auden/Kallman libretto for Stravinsky's *The Rake's Progress*? Hal "You are at the highest level. There are no folders above this one." --a Microsoft Nirvana message Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Oct 29 15:38:01 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:38:01 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Transtromer References: <3DBE4CDA.32492.1F3DDD@localhost> <017b01c27f54$68d89500$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com> Message-ID: <3DBEF1A9.670DD396@earthlink.net> Did he die a few years ago? I thought he did.... but a friend swears to me I'm wrong.... Chris From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 29 16:05:23 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:05:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6><006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> > > I'd also try to get an anthology put together that contained work by > > every school of poetry in the US. It would have a chapter for each > > school edited by some authority on, and perhaps participant in, that > > school whom I would hope to find in the data I'd gotten for my list of > > schools of poetry. > > Sounds like a recipe for incredible boredom. I want an anthology to > show an editorial hand, to guide me. I would rather a collection tried > to do this and failed than suffer through some ledger book trying to > account for every conceivable school and style. It'd take a special person to be bored by such an anthology. I can't think of anything that would excite me more than a book that covered a whole field! I'd particularly like to see one for mathematics. As for >But then, I like to > read (and get excited by( novels, poetry, and short stories rather > than the encyclopedia too. To each his own, but (1) good encyclopedias can be great reading; (2) why can't you like both? (3)it's not creative writing versus information in this case; (4) I would be editor-in-chief, which I assumed I'd implied, so there WOULD be an editorial point-of-view, both in the selection of sub-editors and in the selection of poems; and (5) the biggest point is that you can get the kind of anthology you want in just about any bookstore, but you can't get the kind of anthology I describe ANYWHERE--so why have a poet laureate just do what others are doing rather than something that might prove educational? --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 29 17:03:46 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:03:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <3DBE53A2.7386.39BE26@localhost> Message-ID: <000a01c27f97$0e2fd440$eafafea9@j1c1k6> Marcus wrote: > Well, what's "big bucks", Bob? Is it a living wage? Is it a > prestigious teaching position? Is it the head of the NEA job? Is it > the kind of money that Picasso made? Who cares? > You seem to have some sort of "sell-out" in the pejorative sense in > mind here when you are trying, not very well, to articulate your > objections to money-for-art -- a sort of sell-out that becomes > magically non-pejorative when one sells out to one and only one > "patron". It should be obvious that I'm speaking of people who write with some paying audience in mind, and that some serious artists who don't do that luck into a partron. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 29 17:04:58 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:04:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA References: <3DBE5254.7885.34A51D@localhost> Message-ID: <001001c27f97$38e95440$eafafea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > ... Like showing some of Picasso's representational paintings and then > > his more interesting ones forces curable Philistines to respect the latter > > more. > > But Picasso was not a "serious" artist, Bob -- he made quite a lot of > money from his work in his lifetime. You are trying here to use a > "popular" artist to make your "serious" case, and it just won't work. > Your point fails -- again. I spoke to that exception in another post, or maybe this one. Painters can luck into patrons in a way few poets can. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 29 17:11:42 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:11:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 References: <3DBE4F6C.3486.294997@localhost> Message-ID: <001801c27f98$29a17980$eafafea9@j1c1k6> > Bob Grumman: > > ... I am only stating that he is NOT showing the range of > > current American poetry .... His narrow choice of a goal is one > > reason that he is guilty of doing what I say he did: fail to > > indicate the width of contemporary American poetry. I'm not even > > saying he SHOULD have done that, just that he failed to. << > > Could you be a little more disingenuous, Bob? You use words such as > "he is guilty of doing what I say he did: fail ..." and yet you want > us to believe that you do NOT mean by that that you think he should > have done otherwise!? What horse manure! You make it perfectly > clear that you think that Collins's list is at least inadequate if > not purposefully inadequate. I think you're trying to say that > Collins, in his role as Poet Laureate, is *deliberately* trying to > keep certain kinds of poetry obscure and uninfluential, and that you > blame him, and people like him, for keeping some kinds of poetry > obscure and uninfluential. > > Marcus Bales And I think you are nipping at my heels with little purpose in mind other than making me look awkward (and inferior to you)--instead of perceiving that, yes, I have many thoughts on this subject, and it's hard to smooth them all into a consistent Final Thought. Oh, and I don't think Collins is intentionally working against my kind of poetry; I sincerely believe he doesn't even know it exists. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 29 17:32:34 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:32:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <3DBE4B38.12487.18DF59@localhost> Message-ID: <004201c27f9b$1473ff80$eafafea9@j1c1k6> > > Marcus replied: > > > Does this mean that the moment an artist DOES make money at his or > > > her art his or her art becomes non-serious? > > Bob Grumman: > > If it makes money during the artist's lifetime for what it is as poetry, it > > proves it was not serious art in the first place.<< > > How much money? A single penny? Or "a living wage"? or something in > between, something more? Where and how do you draw the line of > "makes money during the artist's lifetime"? Most people would know what I meant. > Marcus: > > >And how do you judge the intent of an artist who can rely on his or her > > art being sold for money? > > Bob Grumman: > > I can't, but I know from his reliance that he's not creating serious art. > > His "reliance"? What do you mean by that? His "reliance" on the > money he makes from it? You said, "rely on his or her art being sold for money." Work it out from that, Marcus. >What if he's already rich before he starts, > and writes poetry? It depends on what he's rich from. > How do you figure out "reliance"? What if a teaching position is > acquired based on an artist's otherwise-unremunerated work? Isn't > the money from the teaching position *really* money for his or her > art because the teaching position wouldn't exist for that artist > without a "reliance" on that art? Yes. > Marcus: > > > Are you saying that any artist > > > who actually makes a living by producing art cannot by your polemical > > > definition be a serious artist? > > Bob Grumman: > > That's what I was implying, but I would make certain exceptions for those > > who make money from individual patrons. Painters can be serious and somehow > > luck into a buyer able to appreciate their art, and wealthy enough to > > subsidize it. Theoretically, a poet or composer could, too.<< > > Why is it in your view that if one and only one person buys the > artist's art it can be "serious" but if two or more do it cannot? I was speaking of an artist's lucking into someone who would give him what the artist considered serious money for his art. He could, once in that way certified, pick up other supporters and still be "serious." > What if the artist is the scion of an already-wealthy family and has > his or her own money? Can an artist be his or her own patron and > then make what you'd consider "serious" art? > > And, of course, is ANY art made that doesn't sell to more than one > person, or that is made by an already-wealthy person, by that reason > alone "serious" art to you? Are Tony Bennett's paintings "serious > art" because he made his money singing and gives away the money from > the sale of the paintings to charity? You know, Marcus, I can't remember what I was saying--because it is not very important. But I suspect I defined serious art as more than simply art not intended to make a lot of money. > Bob Grumman: > > I see nothing wrong with or necessarily inferior about art that makes money > > and/or puts tailfins on long-used forms. My point is that that kind of art > > is about all that grants-bestowing organizations like the NEA are interested > > in.<< > > Well, you've made it clear that you do see something "wrong with" and > "necessarily inferior" to art you're not willing to characterize as > "serious" by distinguishing "serious art" from an implicit "non- > serious art" by saying you know what "serious art" is. You're trying > to have it both ways, here, again: trying to say that some art, > because the artist does not not or cannot or will not make money from > it, is "serious" while everyone else's art is not "serious". You're > making a claim that "serious" art is better than art that is not > "serious" on the one hand, while saying that there is no difference > between art that is "serious" and art that is not "serious" on the > other. You can't have it both ways. Either your distinction has > merit and what you call "serious" art is, in fact, "better" or your > distinction has no merit and what you call "serious" art is not, in > fact, "better". > > You can't have it both ways. I think I began by saying that the NEA does not support serious art. I did not say serious art was better than what the NEA supports (or would support if it supported the arts rather than the arts and education industries), only that it was remiss in not supporting serious art. Let it support all art as valuable in different ways. --Bob G. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sun Oct 27 15:55:27 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 12:55:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA Message-ID: <20021027205527.5D2363E64@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From chrisl_ak at hotmail.com Mon Oct 28 19:05:04 2002 From: chrisl_ak at hotmail.com (Chris L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:05:04 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 In-Reply-To: <008701c27ecf$06b747c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s message of "Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:11:54 -0500") References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost> <006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <008701c27ecf$06b747c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: "Bob Grumman" writes: > His narrow choice of a goal is one reason that he is guilty of doing > what I say he did: fail to indicate the width of contemporary American > poetry. I'm not even saying he SHOULD have done that, just that he > failed to. He is also "guilty" of failing to prove that the volume of a sphere can be calculated by 4/3*pi*r^3 (or Wien's law regarding wavelength of radiation emission, which would be more relevant to me at the moment :). From chrisl_ak at hotmail.com Mon Oct 28 19:16:42 2002 From: chrisl_ak at hotmail.com (Chris L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:16:42 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Poetry 180 In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F88@mail.ripon.edu> ("Graham, David"'s message of "Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:29:30 -0600") References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F88@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: "Graham, David" writes: > I think Poetry 180 is a quixotic notion at best. The above ^ leads right to the below, no? > Did *you* ever listen > closely to official announcements in high school? I think the list is an idealistic, romantic gesture (as is his choice of the PA system as an example for its use) doomed to an endless amount of second-guessing, sniping and politically fraught debate amongst groups of people who, by and large, have no forum to implement it even if they wanted to... Personally, I think it would be great if they read a poem every day over the PA. Such a futile gesture but still beautiful in a way because of that futility. c From chrisl_ak at hotmail.com Tue Oct 29 00:21:49 2002 From: chrisl_ak at hotmail.com (Chris L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 20:21:49 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA In-Reply-To: <014401c27efa$0f32b3a0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s message of "Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:19:57 -0500") References: <3DBD143A.31103.95206F@localhost> <003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <008101c27ece$8911c0c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <014401c27efa$0f32b3a0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: "Bob Grumman" writes: > Well, there are exceptions to anything--but I also spoke of making > money from the artwork as an artwork. Adapations are making money from the artwork as an artwork in terms of stimulated sales. The problem is that making big bucks for whatever reason is an aberration, really. That's why they call it big bucks. Further sub-classing just seems futile since it confounds so many other factors. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Oct 29 13:16:53 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:16:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Canadian Poetry Message-ID: <20021029181653.B2724E4B7@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Oct 29 20:23:43 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:23:43 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Message-ID: <32.2f658339.2af08e9f@aol.com> In a message dated 10/29/02 11:27:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > > A professor of American and Caribbean literature in a California University > without a college degree? Odd, don't you think? > I don't think the degree is the issue. I know learned people, poets, often autodidacts, who are more than qualified to teach at the university level, and do, frequently. It's the fabrication of the credential that's bad form. I know a fine poet, with formalist tendencies that we won't hold against him, and who is better read than many a college prof but who, I don't think, could show even a GED certificate, is teaching currenlty at Amherst College (former haunt of the well-read farmer). Finnegan From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Oct 29 21:52:51 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:52:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Transtromer Message-ID: <200210300251.g9U2poi6059983@mx9.mx.voyager.net> > >Did he die a few years ago? I thought he did.... >but a friend swears to me I'm wrong.... > >Chris > Chris-- The Graywolf web site, which features Bly's translations of Transtromer, reports him as living in Stockholm. Presumably they would use past tense if he were defunct, and presumably, being his U.S. publisher, they must know. I think I heard a while back that he had been very ill, but more I don't know. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= From ccooley at overdomain.com Tue Oct 29 21:50:42 2002 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:50:42 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1066 - 12 msgs In-Reply-To: <20021030010702.64B6F10376@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Chris, In the Encyclopedia of Poetry, under "G" for Graphophiliacs, Wien's Law is one of the favorite entries--revered by the editor as "beauty^3". And though I've read the entry =int((7*52+1.25)*5)+121 times--every day, that is, since it was published; and though I derive (my favorite verb!) exhiliration to the point of crapulence from his inticate combination of verbs (/,*,*,^!); yet I have never figured out what Wien meant by the enigmatic "4" or the breathtaking "3". Yes, I'm fairly certain the result is 1.3333, but what are the referents, prior to division? It is the not-knowing, the ineffable mystery of these Arabic nouns, that brings me back again and again. Pardon me, I must get to my Encyclopedia. -cc > "Bob Grumman" writes: > > > His narrow choice of a goal is one reason that he is guilty of doing > > what I say he did: fail to indicate the width of contemporary American > > poetry. I'm not even saying he SHOULD have done that, just that he > > failed to. > From: Chris L > He is also "guilty" of failing to prove that the volume of a sphere > can be calculated by 4/3*pi*r^3 (or Wien's law regarding wavelength of > radiation emission, which would be more relevant to me at the moment > :). From roger at chass.utoronto.ca Tue Oct 29 22:56:12 2002 From: roger at chass.utoronto.ca (Roger Greenwald) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:56:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Transtromer alive and writing Message-ID: <3.0.3.16.20021029225612.1f5752a2@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> In response to: >Message: 5 >Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:38:01 -0800 >From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Transtromer >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Did he die a few years ago? I thought he did.... >but a friend swears to me I'm wrong.... >Chris Tomas Transtr?mer suffered a stroke several years ago that affected his active use of language (not his comprehension). After a few years he began writing poems again (or maybe he began earlier, but after a few years, some new poems began to appear in print). I think the recent poems are in a more pared-down mode than those TT wrote for most of his career, but that is not to say they are of lower quality; many poets, after all, have arrived at sparer styles in their later years and have won admiration for that achievement. TT was born in 1931, by the way, so is now about 71. May he be with us for many more years! Roger Greenwald From chris at chrislott.org Tue Oct 29 22:08:54 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:08:54 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s message of "Tue, 29 Oct 2002 16:05:23 -0500") References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, Bob Grumman wrote: > It'd take a special person to be bored by such an anthology. I can't > think of anything that would excite me more than a book that covered > a whole field! I'd particularly like to see one for mathematics. As > for I must be very special then. Nothing seems more yawn-inducing than a comprehensive survey. Nice research tool, yes. Stimulating read? No. > To each his own, but (1) good encyclopedias can be great reading; Very occasionally and with a purpose in mind. > (2) why can't you like both? I could, but I don't. > (3)it's not creative writing versus information in this case Unfortunately, this generally proves to be the case. Comprehensive from a standpoint of representation seems to lead inexorably to boredom and flatness of character. > (4) I would be editor-in-chief, which I > assumed I'd implied, so there WOULD be an editorial point-of-view, > both in the selection of sub-editors and in the selection of poems Jesus could be the editor and Chief, the mission is destined to failure. > (5) the biggest point is that you can get the kind of anthology > you want in just about any bookstore, but you can't get the kind of > anthology I describe ANYWHERE--so why have a poet laureate just do > what others are doing rather than something that might prove > educational? I suspect that most people who put together anthologies are more interested in choosing a sequence of good poems rather than a representation of every possible school. I think this follows from having taste and perspective which necessarily means, if it is to be worth anything as a guide, that he or she recognizes that there is good and bad poetry (though all may argue over which is which, and a good thing that's true) and rather than creating a true representative anthology that must include a bunch of weak poems that are there only by virtue of filling a slot in the grid of criteria, they would rather include GOOD poems that follow some other kind of schema. All poetry and all schools are not created equally. Trying to create a comprehensive catalog, like a business-to-business inventory sheet is precisely the idea that makes me tired just thinking about it, and seems to miss the point of the anthology process. If, instead, you are positing a "dictionary of schools" with a sample of each, well great. And I would use it when I wanted to write a paper. But it wouldn't fulfill MY needs as a reader, a writer, or a poetry enthusiast. c From griffinbaker at shaw.ca Tue Oct 29 22:13:00 2002 From: griffinbaker at shaw.ca (Mark Baker) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:13:00 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Canadian Poetry References: <002001c27f6b$84d62490$d41ab8a1@DFXNZ911> Message-ID: <3DBF4E3B.5D709A84@shaw.ca> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bardo at optonline.net Tue Oct 29 22:28:40 2002 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:28:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate References: Message-ID: <009801c27fc4$71214ac0$ec59bd18@MULDER> > >Troupe, a professor of creative writing and American and Caribbean literature > >at the University of California at San Diego, is author of 13 books, including > >six books of poetry. > > > A professor of American and Caribbean literature in a California University > without a college degree? Odd, don't you think? > > Paul Lake > Many years ago, at SUNY Buffalo, I had the great pleasure of taking a course in Shelley with Gregory Corso, another bard sans degree but a practicioner of the art whose unpretentious enthusiasm and non-academic insights made his sessions the highlight of that semester. He showed us a Shelley we might not otherwise have encountered--a poet who spoke to an autodidact delinquent, an imaginative revolutionary who inspired contemporary ruminations and interrogations, a wild and crazy guy a lot more like us than we might have thought for a guy with a monicker like Percy. Unfortunately, the University at that time required faculty to sign an oath pledging to defend the Constitutions of the United States and of the State of New York. Gregory objected that he hadn't read the NY State Constitution, and requested a copy. Evidently it took quite a while to find one, and when he received it, he said he didn't have the time to read such a long and complex document--after all, he had a college class to teach! The University fired him, halfway through the semester, and replaced him with a wonderful fellow--a 'real' communist, it turned out, who also later left the University to teach, I think, in Canada. Would anyone care to compile a list of poets without degrees whom universities ought to shun as teachers--beginning with, say, Rimbaud and Chatterton--though they don't shun teaching them as 'subjects'? Dan Zimmerman _________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Oct 29 22:35:16 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:35:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry Message-ID: <200210300334.g9U3YF7E014278@mx8.mx.voyager.net> From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Oct 29 22:44:03 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:44:03 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Canadian Poetry Message-ID: In a message dated 10/29/2002 9:17:25 PM Central Standard Time, griffinbaker at shaw.ca writes: > > > Variations on Canadian poetry = New American Poetry minus NY School I > through you into the furnace that Richard had all stoked up for Sam. > I am sorry, but it was winter in my multicultural heritage, and I forgot > how to spell, > and the diversity of snowflakes had gone to my head. > > We enjoyed the magnificent sweep of low tide on Grand Pr? > and then I littered the beach with our Bookers. > Forgive me. I was simply out of harmony. > > I made cigarette papers out of the journals of Susanna Moodie that Margaret > Atwood had stashed among her Bookers. > Louis Dudek's dialogical relationship with Pound made me read Bakhtin, > and the plumes of smoke drifting toward the maple leaves were so wispy and > so tarred. > > In my multicultural classroom I lost you to a Punjab and stabbed you with > his dagger. > Forgive me. I read "The Day Lady Died" and > I wanted you to stop breathing. > > > Mark Baker > > > >> > I just wanted to do due Service to Robert, not Richard. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bardo at optonline.net Tue Oct 29 22:43:32 2002 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:43:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry References: <200210300334.g9U3YF7E014278@mx8.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <00cd01c27fc6$84ea6080$ec59bd18@MULDER> Re: Canadian PoetryNot to put too fine a point on this thread, but I detect a rope heading for the needle's eye: don't you mean Robert Service? Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:35 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry From Richard Service to today's top poets such as Robert Hilles and Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to writing. ______ Wasn't Richard Service heavily influenced by Rudolph Kipling? And let's not forget that noble Canadian-American from Prince Edward Island, Mike Strand , who served so ably as our Pet Lariat. ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Oct 29 22:45:39 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:45:39 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry Message-ID: <7c.307dfe81.2af0afe3@cs.com> In a message dated 10/29/2002 9:35:11 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > Wasn't Richard Service heavily influenced by Rudolph Kipling? > > And let's not forget that noble Canadian-American from Prince Edward > Island, Mike Strand , who served so ably as our Pet Lariat. Personally, I'm a big fan of Margaret Fatwood. She really lights my fire! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpjones at ihug.com.au Tue Oct 29 22:45:57 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (jpjones at ihug.com.au) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:45:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry Message-ID: > From Richard Service to today's top poets such as Robert Hilles and > Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to writing. > ______ > > Wasn't Richard Service heavily influenced by Rudolph Kipling? It's Rudyard Kipling. Rudolph is the one with the red nose. Cheers, Jill From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Oct 29 22:55:49 2002 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:55:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: Canadian Poetry Message-ID: <200210300354.g9U3sl2M035635@mx4.mx.voyager.net> OK, OK, OK! I promise never to attempt irony again. Deepest insincere apologies to ROBERT Service, RUDYARD Kipling, MARK Strand, and fellow fans of good spelling everywhere. Margaret Fatwood, on the other hand, can take care of herself. Ooops. . . . ======================================== David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ======================================= ---------- >From: jpjones at ihug.com.au >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry >Date: Tue, Oct 29, 2002, 9:45 PM > >> From Richard Service to today's top poets such as Robert Hilles and >> Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to writing. >> ______ >> >> Wasn't Richard Service heavily influenced by Rudolph Kipling? > > >It's Rudyard Kipling. Rudolph is the one with the red nose. > >Cheers, >Jill > > From bardo at optonline.net Tue Oct 29 22:58:05 2002 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 22:58:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry References: Message-ID: <010c01c27fc8$8d058090$ec59bd18@MULDER> No, no, no: Rupert Sheldrake, influenced by Randolph Scott. I certainly hope that settles that. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:45 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry > > From Richard Service to today's top poets such as Robert Hilles and > > Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to writing. > > ______ > > > > Wasn't Richard Service heavily influenced by Rudolph Kipling? > > > It's Rudyard Kipling. Rudolph is the one with the red nose. > > Cheers, > Jill > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From chris at chrislott.org Wed Oct 30 01:08:47 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:08:47 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry In-Reply-To: <200210300334.g9U3YF7E014278@mx8.mx.voyager.net> ("David Graham"'s message of "Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:35:16 -0600") References: <200210300334.g9U3YF7E014278@mx8.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, David Graham wrote: > > From Richard Service to today's top poets such as Robert Hilles > and > > Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to > writing. ______ Wasn't Richard Service heavily influenced by > Rudolph Kipling? And let's not forget that noble > Canadian-American from Prince Edward Island, Mike Strand , who > served so ably as our Pet Lariat. Don't you mean "Poet Laureate"? That is a position created--- wait, could this post be a clever joke? c (aka t.s. cummings, famed far and wide for my work "die, he said") From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 30 05:38:54 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 05:38:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6><006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <006501c28000$8be214c0$47b9fea9@j1c1k6> > If, instead, you are positing a "dictionary of schools" with a sample > of each, well great. And I would use it when I wanted to write a > paper. But it wouldn't fulfill MY needs as a reader, a writer, or a > poetry enthusiast. > > c Great, we agree that my anthology would be a good project, disagreeing only on what to call it. --Bob G. From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Oct 30 08:53:47 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:53:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <3DBE53A2.7386.39BE26@localhost> <000a01c27f97$0e2fd440$eafafea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <012a01c2801b$c524f0c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Anyone who doubts that you can make serious art with a paying audience in mind should spend a day listening to Lionel Hampton, Tito Puente and Louis Armstrong. Even if you don't doubt it, this would be the best possible way to spend a day -- except with my grandson, and I'm not giving him up. Tad ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA > Marcus wrote: > > > Well, what's "big bucks", Bob? Is it a living wage? Is it a > > prestigious teaching position? Is it the head of the NEA job? Is it > > the kind of money that Picasso made? > > Who cares? > > > You seem to have some sort of "sell-out" in the pejorative sense in > > mind here when you are trying, not very well, to articulate your > > objections to money-for-art -- a sort of sell-out that becomes > > magically non-pejorative when one sells out to one and only one > > "patron". > > It should be obvious that I'm speaking of people who write with some paying > audience in mind, and that some serious artists who don't do that luck into > a partron. > > --Bob G. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Oct 30 09:32:05 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:32:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA In-Reply-To: <004201c27f9b$1473ff80$eafafea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DBFA715.5345.4D2C7B@localhost> > > > Marcus replied: > > > > Does this mean that the moment an artist DOES make money at his or > > > > her art his or her art becomes non-serious? > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > If it makes money during the artist's lifetime for what it is as poetry, > > > it proves it was not serious art in the first place.<< Marcus: > > How much money? A single penny? Or "a living wage"? or something in > > between, something more? Where and how do you draw the line of > > "makes money during the artist's lifetime"? Bob Grumman: > Most people would know what I meant. I think most people do not know what you meant. Certainly I don't because you're making an assertive argument about the quality of art, trying to divide it up between "serious" and "not serious", and when you do something like that it is incumbent upon you to define your terms adequately. And if you cannot define your terms adequately, or simply will not, then there is no reason to take what you say on the subject in any way ... seriously ... because you're clearly not willing to take it seriously yourself. > > Marcus: > > > >And how do you judge the intent of an artist who can rely on his or > > > her art being sold for money? > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > I can't, but I know from his reliance that he's not creating serious > art. Marcus: > > His "reliance"? What do you mean by that? His "reliance" on the > > money he makes from it? Bob Grumman: > You said, "rely on his or her art being sold for money."<< So you ARE saying, then, that if the artist relies on any money from his or her art to pay for rent or groceries or transportation or stamps or stationary or any of the myriad daily things for which we all use money, that that artist, by the fact of that reliance, cannot be a "serious" artist! So you must be advocating that all artists, in order to be taken as "serious" must decline any money prizes, any money payments, and any money offered because they do art, in order to remain "serious". You must be saying that a teaching job that one got because one is an artist is a corruption of the artist's seriousness because the money is only coming in as a direct result of the artist's art if that job would not be offered to a non-artist. Marcus: > >What if he's already rich before he starts, > > and writes poetry? Bob Grumman: > It depends on what he's rich from.<< Well, give us some examples of what it's acceptable to get rich from and what not in order to be taken as a "serious" artist, Bob. You clearly are setting yourself up as knowledgeable on this subject, a man with distinct views. Tell us what they are. Marcus: > > How do you figure out "reliance"? What if a teaching position is > > acquired based on an artist's otherwise-unremunerated work? Isn't > > the money from the teaching position *really* money for his or her > > art because the teaching position wouldn't exist for that artist > > without a "reliance" on that art? Bob Grumman: > Yes. Well, then, it seems equally obvious that, for the same reasons, having a patron makes an artist equally not a "serious" one because, in that case, the artist has accepted money in exchange for his or her art in the same way a teacher of that art does: that money would not be offered to a non-artist. Your exception seems not to be an exception after all. > > Marcus: > > > > Are you saying that any artist > > > > who actually makes a living by producing art cannot by your polemical > > > > definition be a serious artist? > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > That's what I was implying, but I would make certain exceptions for > > > those > > > who make money from individual patrons. Painters can be serious and > > > somehow > > > luck into a buyer able to appreciate their art, and wealthy enough to > > > subsidize it. Theoretically, a poet or composer could, too.<< Marcus: > > Why is it in your view that if one and only one person buys the > > artist's art it can be "serious" but if two or more do it cannot? Bob Grumman: > I was speaking of an artist's lucking into someone who would give him what > the artist considered serious money for his art. He could, once in that way > certified, pick up other supporters and still be "serious."<< So you're saying that any clown with a lot of money who buys an artist's art "certifies" that artist as "serious" but if a whole bunch of clowns buy that artist's art, that that certifies the artist as *not* serious? How silly is that? You seem to think that being able to give an artist what the artist considers "serioius money" validates a human being's artistic judgment. What a strange notion to imagine that merely having money makes one's artistic judgment better! How very philistine a view from someone who is trying to argue that there is "serious" art and "not serious" art! It seems that what you really mean by "serious art" is "art for which one can charge serious money"! If I have this right, then your initial utterances about "serious art" are an equivocation on the word "serious". You don't mean that the artist is committed to art, or anything resembling that -- you mean that the art can be sold for "serious money", and that it is the "serious money" that validates the art as "serious art". Marcus: > > What if the artist is the scion of an already-wealthy family and has > > his or her own money? Can an artist be his or her own patron and > > then make what you'd consider "serious" art? > > And, of course, is ANY art made that doesn't sell to more than one > > person, or that is made by an already-wealthy person, by that reason > > alone "serious" art to you? Are Tony Bennett's paintings "serious > > art" because he made his money singing and gives away the money from > > the sale of the paintings to charity? Bob Grumman: > You know, Marcus, I can't remember what I was saying--because it is not very > important. But I suspect I defined serious art as more than simply art not > intended to make a lot of money.< You can't remember what you were saying? You must not be serious then! But what does it matter what you "remember" you wers saying? What are you real views on this issue? > > Bob Grumman: > > > I see nothing wrong with or necessarily inferior about art that makes > money > > > and/or puts tailfins on long-used forms. My point is that that kind of > art > > > is about all that grants-bestowing organizations like the NEA are > interested > > > in.<< Marcus: > > Well, you've made it clear that you do see something "wrong with" and > > "necessarily inferior" to art you're not willing to characterize as > > "serious" by distinguishing "serious art" from an implicit "non- > > serious art" by saying you know what "serious art" is. You're trying > > to have it both ways, here, again: trying to say that some art, > > because the artist does not not or cannot or will not make money from > > it, is "serious" while everyone else's art is not "serious". You're > > making a claim that "serious" art is better than art that is not > > "serious" on the one hand, while saying that there is no difference > > between art that is "serious" and art that is not "serious" on the > > other. You can't have it both ways. Either your distinction has > > merit and what you call "serious" art is, in fact, "better" or your > > distinction has no merit and what you call "serious" art is not, in > > fact, "better". > > You can't have it both ways. Bob Grumman: > I think I began by saying that the NEA does not support serious art.<< Well, now that we see that by "serious art" you mean "art that makes serious money" I guess we can all agree with you that the NEA does not support that kind of serious art. Bob Grumman: not say serious art was better than what the NEA supports (or would support > if it supported the arts rather than the arts and education industries), > only that it was remiss in not supporting serious art.<< First, this is the "but I didn't say the words!" defense, again -- you cannot reasonably expect to make a distinction such as that between "serious art" and "not serious art" and expect your readers, unschooled in your equivocation on the word "serious", to understand that you are not claiming that "serious art" is better than "not serious art". Of course anyone who didn't know about your equivocation on the word "serious" would expect that you meant to make a (dare I say it?) serious point: that "serious art" was better than "not serious art". But now that we see that you're just equivocating again, and your notion of "serious art" is merely "art that makes serious money", well, your point is trivial. Why should the NEA support art that already has "serious money"? Such "serious artists" already have lots of money and don't need the NEA grants. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Oct 30 09:32:05 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:32:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 In-Reply-To: <001801c27f98$29a17980$eafafea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DBFA715.23491.4D2A71@localhost> > > Bob Grumman: > > > ... I am only stating that he is NOT showing the range of > > > current American poetry .... His narrow choice of a goal is one > > > reason that he is guilty of doing what I say he did: fail to > > > indicate the width of contemporary American poetry. I'm not even > > > saying he SHOULD have done that, just that he failed to. << Marcus: > > Could you be a little more disingenuous, Bob? You use words such as > > "he is guilty of doing what I say he did: fail ..." and yet you want > > us to believe that you do NOT mean by that that you think he should > > have done otherwise!? What horse manure! You make it perfectly > > clear that you think that Collins's list is at least inadequate if > > not purposefully inadequate. I think you're trying to say that > > Collins, in his role as Poet Laureate, is *deliberately* trying to > > keep certain kinds of poetry obscure and uninfluential, and that you > > blame him, and people like him, for keeping some kinds of poetry > > obscure and uninfluential. Bob Grumman: > And I think you are nipping at my heels with little purpose in mind other > than making me look awkward ...<< I'm pointing out that you clearly have not thought this through, based on what you say about it -- or, if you have, you are inarticulate in your attempts to convey what you've thought to others, and to ask you, really, to re-state it so it's clearer. Bob Grumman: > ... it's hard to smooth > them all into a consistent Final Thought....< Sure it's hard -- but to abandon the field, as you always have, with a casual "I don't have time to say it better, so just believe me that I'm right" is just plain silly. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Oct 30 09:43:53 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:43:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA In-Reply-To: <000a01c27f97$0e2fd440$eafafea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DBFA9D9.21273.57F9CB@localhost> > Marcus wrote: > > Well, what's "big bucks", Bob? Is it a living wage? Is it a > > prestigious teaching position? Is it the head of the NEA job? Is it > > the kind of money that Picasso made? Bob Grumman: > Who cares? YOU obviously care, Bob, because you made the distinction. But now that we've seen that you're merely equivocating, again, I guess the only people who should care are those keeping track of your trolling posts. Marcus: > > You seem to have some sort of "sell-out" in the pejorative sense in > > mind here when you are trying, not very well, to articulate your > > objections to money-for-art -- a sort of sell-out that becomes > > magically non-pejorative when one sells out to one and only one > > "patron". Bob Grumman: > It should be obvious that I'm speaking of people who write with some paying > audience in mind, and that some serious artists who don't do that luck into > a partron. Well, it's clear now that you've made your equivocation on the word "serious" clear -- or now that my questioning has made it clear. You mean that "serious artists" are those who make "serious money". Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Oct 30 09:48:44 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 09:48:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <001001c27f97$38e95440$eafafea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DBFAAFC.22252.5C6911@localhost> > > Bob Grumman: > > > ... Like showing some of Picasso's representational paintings and then > > > his more interesting ones forces curable Philistines to respect the > latter > > > more. Marcus: > > But Picasso was not a "serious" artist, Bob -- he made quite a lot of > > money from his work in his lifetime. You are trying here to use a > > "popular" artist to make your "serious" case, and it just won't work. > > Your point fails -- again. Bob Grumman: > I spoke to that exception in another post, or maybe this one. Painters can > luck into patrons in a way few poets can.<< You said, in fact, that painters can luck into patrons and you don't see why poets and other artists can't, too. The very notion that you're proposing that it is luck and not skill that produces the patron relationship shows that you haven't thought through the "serious art" notion very well -- you're just saying that "serious money" makes "serious art", which is, in fact, preposterous. Further, if "serious money" produces "serious art" then you have to admit that those who luck into being 'NSync or Rod McKuen or LeRoy Neiman are "serious artists" BECAUSE they make "serious money". Do you? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Oct 30 10:25:11 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:25:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry In-Reply-To: <200210300334.g9U3YF7E014278@mx8.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3DBFB387.30028.7DCC4B@localhost> > From Richard Service to today's top poets such as Robert Hilles and > Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to writing. > ______ > > Wasn't Richard Service heavily influenced by Rudolph Kipling? _____________ Oh, you naughty boy! I've never kipled! Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Oct 30 10:25:11 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:25:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3DBFB387.30682.7DCB2F@localhost> > > From Richard Service to today's top poets such as Robert Hilles and > > Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to writing. > > ______ > > > > Wasn't Richard Service heavily influenced by Rudolph Kipling? > > > It's Rudyard Kipling. Rudolph is the one with the red nose. > Cheers, > Jill Another Christmas Poem Marcus Bales They've argued half the morning as we walked From hruggier at localnet.com Wed Oct 30 10:46:33 2002 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:46:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: Canadian Poetry References: <200210300354.g9U3sl2M035635@mx4.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3DBFFED9.3D67889C@localnet.com> And what about Robert Fly? David Graham wrote: > OK, OK, OK! > > I promise never to attempt irony again. Deepest insincere apologies to > ROBERT Service, RUDYARD Kipling, MARK Strand, and fellow fans of good > spelling everywhere. > > Margaret Fatwood, on the other hand, can take care of herself. > > Ooops. . . . > ======================================== > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ======================================= > > ---------- > >From: jpjones at ihug.com.au > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry > >Date: Tue, Oct 29, 2002, 9:45 PM > > > > >> From Richard Service to today's top poets such as Robert Hilles and > >> Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to writing. > >> ______ > >> > >> Wasn't Richard Service heavily influenced by Rudolph Kipling? > > > > > >It's Rudyard Kipling. Rudolph is the one with the red nose. > > > >Cheers, > >Jill > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Oct 30 10:38:54 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:38:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: Canadian Poetry In-Reply-To: <3DBFFED9.3D67889C@localnet.com> Message-ID: <3DBFB6BE.18154.8A59ED@localhost> And don't forget Jack Frost. M > And what about Robert Fly? > > David Graham wrote: > > > OK, OK, OK! > > > > I promise never to attempt irony again. Deepest insincere apologies to > > ROBERT Service, RUDYARD Kipling, MARK Strand, and fellow fans of good > > spelling everywhere. > > > > Margaret Fatwood, on the other hand, can take care of herself. > > > > Ooops. . . . > > ======================================== > > David Graham > > Professor of English, Ripon College > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > > "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > > undergraduate education." > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > > ======================================= > > > > ---------- > > >From: jpjones at ihug.com.au > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry > > >Date: Tue, Oct 29, 2002, 9:45 PM > > > > > > > >> From Richard Service to today's top poets such as Robert Hilles and > > >> Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to writing. > > >> ______ > > >> > > >> Wasn't Richard Service heavily influenced by Rudolph Kipling? > > > > > > > > >It's Rudyard Kipling. Rudolph is the one with the red nose. > > > > > >Cheers, > > >Jill > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Oct 30 11:55:44 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:55:44 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate In-Reply-To: <32.2f658339.2af08e9f@aol.com> Message-ID: on 10/29/02 7:23 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/29/02 11:27:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, > paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > >> >> A professor of American and Caribbean literature in a California University >> without a college degree? Odd, don't you think? >> > I don't think the degree is the issue. I know learned people, poets, > often autodidacts, who are more than qualified to teach at the university > level, and do, frequently. It's the fabrication of the credential that's bad > form. > I know a fine poet, with formalist tendencies that we won't hold > against him, and who is better read than many a college prof but who, > I don't think, could show even a GED certificate, is teaching currenlty > at Amherst College (former haunt of the well-read farmer). > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > I know Ann Sexton didn't have a college degree. I can certainly see a poet or fiction writer without a degree teaching creative writing. I'm no degree snob, having only a humble M. A. in creative writing and English. It just seemed a bit unusual to have someone teaching lit without credentials in today's job market. Paul Lake From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Oct 30 12:02:01 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:02:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Message-ID: >Many years ago, at SUNY Buffalo, I had the great pleasure of taking a course >in Shelley with Gregory Corso, another bard sans degree but a practicioner of the art whose unpretentious enthusiasm and non-academic insights made his >sessions the highlight of that semester. He showed us a Shelley we might not otherwise have encountered--a poet who spoke to an autodidact delinquent, an imaginative revolutionary who inspired contemporary ruminations and interrogations, a wild and crazy guy a lot more like us than we might have thought for a guy >with a monicker like Percy. I found Percy Shelley such a wild and crazy guy I made him the villain of my novel Among the Immortals. If you can find a copy of the novel in print, have a look. The novel is a satirical thriller about--what else--the poetry world. >Would anyone care to compile a list of poets without degrees whom >universities ought to shun as teachers--beginning with, say, Rimbaud and >Chatterton--though they don't shun teaching them as 'subjects'? Reminds me of that famous remark by an academic about Nabokov when he began teaching, that the elephant was now running the zoo. Paul Lake From chris at chrislott.org Wed Oct 30 12:07:30 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:07:30 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <006501c28000$8be214c0$47b9fea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s message of "Wed, 30 Oct 2002 05:38:54 -0500") References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> <006501c28000$8be214c0$47b9fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Bob Grumman wrote: > Great, we agree that my anthology would be a good project, > disagreeing only on what to call it. Of course. I already said that it would be a fine project for research to make some kind of reference, though conducive to sleep and of little help in making poetry interesting or exciting (and much less valuable in those regards than a collection which had a guiding theme, narrative or other structure imposed by the anthologist)... since this was the context of the discussion. Your project would be good for other poetry quantifying folks the same way the inventory spreadsheet is good for a bookstore. Let me know when you're done... From MerwinDame at aol.com Wed Oct 30 12:17:58 2002 From: MerwinDame at aol.com (MerwinDame at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:17:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate Message-ID: <1a7.b2c6691.2af16e46@aol.com> In a message dated 10/29/2002 7:32:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, bardo at optonline.net writes: << Would anyone care to compile a list of poets without degrees whom universities ought to shun as teachers--beginning with, say, Rimbaud and Chatterton--though they don't shun teaching them as 'subjects'? Dan Zimmerman >> hey, this sounds like a fun game, dan -- "identify the slacker autodidacts" (a game very near and dear to my own heart, since i proudly identify myself as belonging to the ranks of the formally non-formally educated...) =;-) so, let's see...you started it off with rimbaud and chatterton...and i shall add the indomitable ms. anne sexton -- who actually taught at boston college, despite a very distinct lack of anything even remotely resembling a college degree. she fucking rocked, though (literally...with her touring rock band, "her kind". only sexton...LOL) oh, yeah...and as far as other writers go, we got JD Salinger, Jack London, Carl Sandburg, Ernest Hemingway, Edith Wharton, William Faulkner, Samuel Clemens, Joseph Conrad, Herman Melville, Charles Dickens, William Shakespeare, William Blake, Ray Bradbury, Robert Frost, Robert Browning, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Raymond Chandler, John Cheever, Scott Fitzgerald, George Bernard Shaw, HL Mencken, Edgar Allan Poe, O. Henry, Beatrix Potter, Doris Lessing, and Fran Lebowitz -- all college slackers, as well. not too many famous poets in the bunch, though -- which is actually rather puzzling to me. considering the very distinct poetic process and mindset, i would've guessed exactly the opposite. any comments on perhaps why this is so, kids? good christ, but this subject is endlessly fascinating to me. res ipsa loquitur, baby -- =;-) *muffy* ps) and just for shits and giggles...here is a list of some well-known HIGH SCHOOL dropouts who have done quite well for themselves in their chosen field of endeavor (some surprising...and some not): John Chancellor Peter Jennings Henry Ford Andrew Carnegie John D. Rockefeller Ray Kroc Richard Branson Dave Thomas Emma Goldman Horace Greeley Milton Hershey Stanley Kubrick Wilbur and Orville Wright George Eastman Frank Lloyd Wright Kurt Cobain Harold Ross Louis Armstrong Lucille Ball Humphrey Bogart Ray Charles Sean Connery Robert DeNiro Aretha Franklin Elton John Jerry Lewis Sidney Poitier Anthony Quinn Frank Sinatra Patrick Stewart Danny Thomas Peter Ustinov Peter Bogdanovich Charlie Chaplin Walt Disney Federico Fellini John Huston Quentin Tarantino -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 30 12:48:38 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:48:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { I know Ann Sexton didn't have a college degree. I can certainly see a poet { or fiction writer without a degree teaching creative writing. I'm no degree { snob, having only a humble M. A. in creative writing and English. It just { seemed a bit unusual to have someone teaching lit without credentials in { today's job market. { { Paul Lake Paul, my guess is that in today's academic world many schools are willing to let names with drawing power trump academic credentials. Hal Regime change begins at home. Vote! Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Oct 30 14:12:26 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:12:26 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: Canadian Poetry References: <200210300354.g9U3sl2M035635@mx4.mx.voyager.net> <3DBFFED9.3D67889C@localnet.com> Message-ID: <3DC02F1A.20F9DB6C@earthlink.net> Not to mention Jody Graham. - Jim Helen Ruggieri wrote: > > And what about Robert Fly? > > David Graham wrote: > > > OK, OK, OK! > > > > I promise never to attempt irony again. Deepest insincere apologies to > > ROBERT Service, RUDYARD Kipling, MARK Strand, and fellow fans of good > > spelling everywhere. > > > > Margaret Fatwood, on the other hand, can take care of herself. > > > > Ooops. . . . > > ======================================== > > David Graham > > Professor of English, Ripon College > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > > Poetry Library: > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > > > "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > > undergraduate education." > > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > > ======================================= > > > > ---------- > > >From: jpjones at ihug.com.au > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry > > >Date: Tue, Oct 29, 2002, 9:45 PM > > > > > > > >> From Richard Service to today's top poets such as Robert Hilles and > > >> Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to writing. > > >> ______ > > >> > > >> Wasn't Richard Service heavily influenced by Rudolph Kipling? > > > > > > > > >It's Rudyard Kipling. Rudolph is the one with the red nose. > > > > > >Cheers, > > >Jill > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Oct 30 14:29:28 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:29:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: Canadian Poetry In-Reply-To: <3DC02F1A.20F9DB6C@earthlink.net> References: <200210300354.g9U3sl2M035635@mx4.mx.voyager.net> <3DBFFED9.3D67889C@localnet.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021030142019.00ab6340@postoffice.brown.edu> Or the famous 19th-cent. Cajun poet, Rainy Marie Wilkie. She lived for years in Towers Motel outside of Baton Rouge, utterly ignored by the literary world (and the motel managers, for some reason). Her famous sonnet sequence, Gumbo for Orpheus, was written entirely in Arcadian (a dialect of Spanish which originated in northern Maine after the Arcadians were kicked out of Greece by the British). I believe Kent Jackson has devoted a monograph (this is a kind of memoir composed while recuperating from mono, I believe) to her opus (this is a kind of soft-shell crab found only in the Persian Gulf region). Henry At 12:12 PM 10/30/02 -0700, you wrote: >Not to mention Jody Graham. > >- Jim From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Oct 30 14:47:51 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:47:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DBFF117.15269.310E26@localhost> > Paul, my guess is that in today's academic world many schools are > willing to let names with drawing power trump academic credentials. > Hal Regime change begins at home. Vote! Let's see -- would that mean that since it is the drawing power of the names, based on their arts, that was the primary reason they were hired, that would mean they were essentially getting jobs they wouldn't get except for the fact they'd done the art? Doesn't that make them not serious artists in Bob Grumman's taxonomy? Hmmm? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 30 14:40:45 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:40:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <3DBE53A2.7386.39BE26@localhost> <000a01c27f97$0e2fd440$eafafea9@j1c1k6> <012a01c2801b$c524f0c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <004901c2804c$3e0ceee0$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> > Anyone who doubts that you can make serious art with a paying audience in > mind should spend a day listening to Lionel Hampton, Tito Puente and Louis > Armstrong. Do you think these musicians composed what they thought would make money or aimed for music that pleased them, and were lucky enough, eventually, to pick up enough of an audience to make a living or more? --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 30 14:49:05 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:49:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA References: <3DBFA715.5345.4D2C7B@localhost> Message-ID: <004f01c2804d$68083280$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > If it makes money during the artist's lifetime for what it is as poetry, > > > > it proves it was not serious art in the first place.<< > > Marcus: > > > How much money? A single penny? Or "a living wage"? or something in > > > between, something more? Where and how do you draw the line of > > > "makes money during the artist's lifetime"? > > Bob Grumman: > > Most people would know what I meant. > > I think most people do not know what you meant. Certainly I don't > because you're making an assertive argument about the quality of art, > trying to divide it up between "serious" and "not serious", and when > you do something like that it is incumbent upon you to define your > terms adequately. And if you cannot define your terms adequately, or > simply will not, then there is no reason to take what you say on the > subject in any way ... seriously ... because you're clearly not > willing to take it seriously yourself. We've been through all this before, Marcus. You're right in everything you say about me, as I'm pretty sure I admitted before. Of course, since I don't know what I'm talking about, my having admitted that is meaningless. Nonetheless, I'll continue making comments when I feel like, and even discussing them with those interested in discussing them rather than looking for minute details that seem to them puncturable, as you do. In other words, don'tlook for too many responses to your jabs at me. --Bob G. > > > Marcus: > > > > >And how do you judge the intent of an artist who can rely on his or > > > > her art being sold for money? > > > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > I can't, but I know from his reliance that he's not creating serious > > art. > > Marcus: > > > His "reliance"? What do you mean by that? His "reliance" on the > > > money he makes from it? > > Bob Grumman: > > You said, "rely on his or her art being sold for money."<< > > So you ARE saying, then, that if the artist relies on any money from > his or her art to pay for rent or groceries or transportation or > stamps or stationary or any of the myriad daily things for which we > all use money, that that artist, by the fact of that reliance, cannot > be a "serious" artist! > > So you must be advocating that all artists, in order to be taken as > "serious" must decline any money prizes, any money payments, and any > money offered because they do art, in order to remain "serious". You > must be saying that a teaching job that one got because one is an > artist is a corruption of the artist's seriousness because the money > is only coming in as a direct result of the artist's art if that job > would not be offered to a non-artist. > > Marcus: > > >What if he's already rich before he starts, > > > and writes poetry? > > Bob Grumman: > > It depends on what he's rich from.<< > > Well, give us some examples of what it's acceptable to get rich from > and what not in order to be taken as a "serious" artist, Bob. You > clearly are setting yourself up as knowledgeable on this subject, a > man with distinct views. Tell us what they are. > > Marcus: > > > How do you figure out "reliance"? What if a teaching position is > > > acquired based on an artist's otherwise-unremunerated work? Isn't > > > the money from the teaching position *really* money for his or her > > > art because the teaching position wouldn't exist for that artist > > > without a "reliance" on that art? > > Bob Grumman: > > Yes. > > Well, then, it seems equally obvious that, for the same reasons, > having a patron makes an artist equally not a "serious" one because, > in that case, the artist has accepted money in exchange for his or > her art in the same way a teacher of that art does: that money would > not be offered to a non-artist. > > Your exception seems not to be an exception after all. > > > > Marcus: > > > > > Are you saying that any artist > > > > > who actually makes a living by producing art cannot by your polemical > > > > > definition be a serious artist? > > > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > That's what I was implying, but I would make certain exceptions for > > > > those > > > > who make money from individual patrons. Painters can be serious and > > > > somehow > > > > luck into a buyer able to appreciate their art, and wealthy enough to > > > > subsidize it. Theoretically, a poet or composer could, too.<< > > Marcus: > > > Why is it in your view that if one and only one person buys the > > > artist's art it can be "serious" but if two or more do it cannot? > > Bob Grumman: > > I was speaking of an artist's lucking into someone who would give him what > > the artist considered serious money for his art. He could, once in that way > > certified, pick up other supporters and still be "serious."<< > > So you're saying that any clown with a lot of money who buys an > artist's art "certifies" that artist as "serious" but if a whole > bunch of clowns buy that artist's art, that that certifies the artist > as *not* serious? How silly is that? > > You seem to think that being able to give an artist what the artist > considers "serioius money" validates a human being's artistic > judgment. What a strange notion to imagine that merely having money > makes one's artistic judgment better! How very philistine a view > from someone who is trying to argue that there is "serious" art and > "not serious" art! It seems that what you really mean by "serious > art" is "art for which one can charge serious money"! > > If I have this right, then your initial utterances about "serious > art" are an equivocation on the word "serious". You don't mean that > the artist is committed to art, or anything resembling that -- you > mean that the art can be sold for "serious money", and that it is the > "serious money" that validates the art as "serious art". > > Marcus: > > > What if the artist is the scion of an already-wealthy family and has > > > his or her own money? Can an artist be his or her own patron and > > > then make what you'd consider "serious" art? > > > And, of course, is ANY art made that doesn't sell to more than one > > > person, or that is made by an already-wealthy person, by that reason > > > alone "serious" art to you? Are Tony Bennett's paintings "serious > > > art" because he made his money singing and gives away the money from > > > the sale of the paintings to charity? > > Bob Grumman: > > You know, Marcus, I can't remember what I was saying--because it is not very > > important. But I suspect I defined serious art as more than simply art not > > intended to make a lot of money.< > > You can't remember what you were saying? You must not be serious > then! But what does it matter what you "remember" you wers saying? > What are you real views on this issue? > > > > Bob Grumman: > > > > I see nothing wrong with or necessarily inferior about art that makes > > money > > > > and/or puts tailfins on long-used forms. My point is that that kind of > > art > > > > is about all that grants-bestowing organizations like the NEA are > > interested > > > > in.<< > > Marcus: > > > Well, you've made it clear that you do see something "wrong with" and > > > "necessarily inferior" to art you're not willing to characterize as > > > "serious" by distinguishing "serious art" from an implicit "non- > > > serious art" by saying you know what "serious art" is. You're trying > > > to have it both ways, here, again: trying to say that some art, > > > because the artist does not not or cannot or will not make money from > > > it, is "serious" while everyone else's art is not "serious". You're > > > making a claim that "serious" art is better than art that is not > > > "serious" on the one hand, while saying that there is no difference > > > between art that is "serious" and art that is not "serious" on the > > > other. You can't have it both ways. Either your distinction has > > > merit and what you call "serious" art is, in fact, "better" or your > > > distinction has no merit and what you call "serious" art is not, in > > > fact, "better". > > > You can't have it both ways. > > Bob Grumman: > > I think I began by saying that the NEA does not support serious art.<< > > Well, now that we see that by "serious art" you mean "art that makes > serious money" I guess we can all agree with you that the NEA does > not support that kind of serious art. > > Bob Grumman: > not say serious art was better than what the NEA supports (or would > support > > if it supported the arts rather than the arts and education industries), > > only that it was remiss in not supporting serious art.<< > > First, this is the "but I didn't say the words!" defense, again -- > you cannot reasonably expect to make a distinction such as that > between "serious art" and "not serious art" and expect your readers, > unschooled in your equivocation on the word "serious", to understand > that you are not claiming that "serious art" is better than "not > serious art". Of course anyone who didn't know about your > equivocation on the word "serious" would expect that you meant to > make a (dare I say it?) serious point: that "serious art" was better > than "not serious art". > > But now that we see that you're just equivocating again, and your > notion of "serious art" is merely "art that makes serious money", > well, your point is trivial. Why should the NEA support art that > already has "serious money"? Such "serious artists" already have > lots of money and don't need the NEA grants. > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 30 14:54:02 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:54:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate References: <1a7.b2c6691.2af16e46@aol.com> Message-ID: <008701c2804e$18b03240$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> You left out John Keats, Ben Jonson, Dylan Thomas and, Jeezuz, William Butler Yeats, to name a few pretty fair poets with no college. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: MerwinDame at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Laureate In a message dated 10/29/2002 7:32:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, bardo at optonline.net writes: << Would anyone care to compile a list of poets without degrees whom universities ought to shun as teachers--beginning with, say, Rimbaud and Chatterton--though they don't shun teaching them as 'subjects'? Dan Zimmerman >> hey, this sounds like a fun game, dan -- "identify the slacker autodidacts" (a game very near and dear to my own heart, since i proudly identify myself as belonging to the ranks of the formally non-formally educated...) =;-) so, let's see...you started it off with rimbaud and chatterton...and i shall add the indomitable ms. anne sexton -- who actually taught at boston college, despite a very distinct lack of anything even remotely resembling a college degree. she fucking rocked, though (literally...with her touring rock band, "her kind". only sexton...LOL) oh, yeah...and as far as other writers go, we got JD Salinger, Jack London, Carl Sandburg, Ernest Hemingway, Edith Wharton, William Faulkner, Samuel Clemens, Joseph Conrad, Herman Melville, Charles Dickens, William Shakespeare, William Blake, Ray Bradbury, Robert Frost, Robert Browning, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Raymond Chandler, John Cheever, Scott Fitzgerald, George Bernard Shaw, HL Mencken, Edgar Allan Poe, O. Henry, Beatrix Potter, Doris Lessing, and Fran Lebowitz -- all college slackers, as well. not too many famous poets in the bunch, though -- which is actually rather puzzling to me. considering the very distinct poetic process and mindset, i would've guessed exactly the opposite. any comments on perhaps why this is so, kids? good christ, but this subject is endlessly fascinating to me. res ipsa loquitur, baby -- =;-) *muffy* ps) and just for shits and giggles...here is a list of some well-known HIGH SCHOOL dropouts who have done quite well for themselves in their chosen field of endeavor (some surprising...and some not): John Chancellor Peter Jennings Henry Ford Andrew Carnegie John D. Rockefeller Ray Kroc Richard Branson Dave Thomas Emma Goldman Horace Greeley Milton Hershey Stanley Kubrick Wilbur and Orville Wright George Eastman Frank Lloyd Wright Kurt Cobain Harold Ross Louis Armstrong Lucille Ball Humphrey Bogart Ray Charles Sean Connery Robert DeNiro Aretha Franklin Elton John Jerry Lewis Sidney Poitier Anthony Quinn Frank Sinatra Patrick Stewart Danny Thomas Peter Ustinov Peter Bogdanovich Charlie Chaplin Walt Disney Federico Fellini John Huston Quentin Tarantino -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 30 14:56:25 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:56:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6><006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> <006501c28000$8be214c0$47b9fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <008d01c2804e$6e540640$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> > On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Great, we agree that my anthology would be a good project, > > disagreeing only on what to call it. > > Of course. I already said that it would be a fine project for research > to make some kind of reference, though conducive to sleep and of > little help in making poetry interesting or exciting (and much less > valuable in those regards than a collection which had a guiding theme, > narrative or other structure imposed by the anthologist)... since this > was the context of the discussion. > > Your project would be good for other poetry quantifying folks the same way > the inventory spreadsheet is good for a bookstore. Let me know when > you're done... Well, I still think it'd be good for those poor saps of poets who are interested in what poets unlike themselves might be up to. I doubt there are many such folk around, certainly not at New-Poetry. --Bob G. From lshinn at sas.upenn.edu Wed Oct 30 15:32:17 2002 From: lshinn at sas.upenn.edu (Leslie Shinn) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:32:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Question about "lyric" In-Reply-To: <005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6><006001c 27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: Can anyone give me information on the journal lyric? Editor, where it comes out from, etc. Is there a web site? Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Oct 30 15:52:04 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:52:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Re: Canadian Poetry In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021030142019.00ab6340@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <3DC02F1A.20F9DB6C@earthlink.net> <200210300354.g9U3sl2M035635@mx4.mx.voyager.net> <3DBFFED9.3D67889C@localnet.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021030145035.016140e8@mail.ilstu.edu> Anybody mentioned Caroline Knox, genius poet. Is she not Canadian?guh At 02:29 PM 10/30/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Or the famous 19th-cent. Cajun poet, Rainy Marie Wilkie. She lived for >years in Towers Motel outside of Baton Rouge, utterly ignored by the >literary world (and the motel managers, for some reason). Her famous >sonnet sequence, Gumbo for Orpheus, was written entirely in Arcadian (a >dialect of Spanish which originated in northern Maine after the Arcadians >were kicked out of Greece by the British). I believe Kent Jackson has >devoted a monograph (this is a kind of memoir composed while recuperating >from mono, I believe) to her opus (this is a kind of sboft-shell crab >found only in the Persian Gulf region). > >Henry > >At 12:12 PM 10/30/02 -0700, you wrote: >>Not to mention Jody Graham. >> >>- Jim > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Gabriel Gudding Assistant Professor Department of English Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790 office 309.438.5284 home 309.828.8377 http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Oct 30 16:04:46 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:04:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA In-Reply-To: <004f01c2804d$68083280$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DC0031E.16513.777D3E@localhost> Bob Grumman: > Nonetheless, I'll continue making comments when I feel like, and even > discussing them with those interested in discussing them rather than looking > for minute details that seem to them puncturable, as you do.<< Minute details? Good god, man -- you've based your entire argument on the proposition that art is serious in some proportion to the amount of money involved, and you say that my questioning you on the subject of how much money is "minute details"? Preposterous. You're of course welcome to make all the comments you please. I'll continue to point out when you make comments that don't hold together very well in hopes that you'll restate them so they do. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Oct 30 16:20:54 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:20:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021030160541.00a858c0@postoffice.brown.edu> Now that Bob Grumman has been driven into the ground with seven golden piledrivers, I would just like to state for the record that poetry is to money as the Jackson Five are to the Lucchesi crime family. Do the math, dingos. Where the money is, there the goons will gather. Many considerable nerds and obnoxious types are trying to equate the equator with an equation by implying by implication that poets, musicians and visual artists are all deep in the you-know-doodoo. This is vastly, HUGELY mistaken, not to mention utterly wrong. Musicians & visual artists have been money-grubbers from the word "go" (a word invented by poets, let's not forgo). For poets, on the other hand, QUA POETS, money is merely compositional material, such as for example blue cheese stamped in thin rectangular slices and imprinted with the Gods of the Green Revolution whose last names all end in "ton". QUA POETS, money is a simply subject for further peculation, as in Jim Dante, Wilson Blake, and Bob Shucks Poor. As I say repeatedly, it's a mere gumb or squelge - ask Gabby Gudding, he'll say "poop". POETS QUA POETS are stuck in their Firm, in there. Their Firm (Formco.) Has NEBBER MABE INNY MUBBY. Get it? MUBBY IS DUBBY-DIRTY. As Walter Stevens wrote, "Money is a kind of Potty." Wilkie Collins & his little brother Billy believe in Poetry, but they talk so much into the microphone that they are taken away toward Washington carrying their SUV's tucked under their suburbs. They burp too much. They are RICH, RICH RICH. Like many professional poets today they know how to swing an angle over a tennis racket, you can bet on that (back on the Rez!!) Henry From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Wed Oct 30 17:00:09 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 16:00:09 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021030160541.00a858c0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021030155800.00b9bd20@mail.ilstu.edu> >then Henry said, further peculation, as in Jim Dante, Wilson Blake, and >Bob Shucks Poor. As I say repeatedly, it's a mere gumb or squelge - ask >Gabby Gudding, he'll say "poop". We have been to the dark of Herodotus where was fire, I hear. While there, I cried into a pewter cup. Dried inside was a little circle of wine. On one sheet of reed paper a waterspout was drawn in old mid-eastern ink. They say if you stay in the dark of Herodotus long enough your knees or thighs will thump his desk, and an orange watery light will eventually throw itself from the fire. But I was down there for quite a while at what I took to be his death-spot and I blinked and banged my fist. And all that came out of the fire was poop. --Gabe From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Oct 30 17:36:53 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:36:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ronald Johnson, "Side Light" Message-ID: Side Light billions mistakes amoebae into man jammed sky the while stark labyrinth seethed with flesh with ache seized --Ronald Johnson fr. *The Shrubberies* [Chicago: Flood Editions, 2001] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From chris at chrislott.org Wed Oct 30 18:15:22 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:15:22 -0900 Subject: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] In-Reply-To: <004901c2804c$3e0ceee0$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s message of "Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:40:45 -0500") References: <3DBE53A2.7386.39BE26@localhost> <000a01c27f97$0e2fd440$eafafea9@j1c1k6> <012a01c2801b$c524f0c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <004901c2804c$3e0ceee0$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Bob Grumman wrote: >> Anyone who doubts that you can make serious art with a paying >> audience in mind should spend a day listening to Lionel Hampton, >> Tito Puente and Louis Armstrong. > > Do you think these musicians composed what they thought would make > money or aimed for music that pleased them, and were lucky enough, > eventually, to pick up enough of an audience to make a living or > more? Louis Armstrong is in a whole different class than Puente or Hampton, particularly in coming onto the scene with a technique and musical understanding that was practically sui generis. Hampton and Puente were real innovators, of course, but I think of a magnitude less, at least in my interpretation. But Armstrong and Hampton are famed for their innovation, and it is a strange triad to choose them as possible representatives of making art with an audience in mind. Armstrong had made it big by giving the audience something they had never heard before-- long before he got lured away to vocals and show tunes, as his letters, notebooks, and biographers attest. He is surely not much of an example to argue about writing what the audience wants to hear. Later production is arguable, as he started doing show tunes and-- more problematic-- putting trumpet-playing aside in favor of vocals (as good as he was). But as David Graham opened my eyes to when I complained a bit about this, really listening to even this late music shows a lot of innovation going on. How can an innovator like Armstrong-- how can ANY real innovator-- be accused of pandering to an audience or writing music for them? Isn't that exactly what innovation is NOT about? There is also the problem that in jazz, covering classic songs, even what might be considered chestnuts (in the wrong hands) is an honored pursuit as a grounds for innovation. So, the audience might always shout for Coltrane to do "My Favorite Things" but only based on his innovation in the first place, and a jazz musician will ensure his legacy by doing something new each time. So even then, playing what the audience wants is often hardly that. It takes stealthy craft to subvert the popular demand and give them what they don't even know they want. The best poets try to do this too. c From chris at chrislott.org Wed Oct 30 18:17:26 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:17:26 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <008d01c2804e$6e540640$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s message of "Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:56:25 -0500") References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> <006501c28000$8be214c0$47b9fea9@j1c1k6> <008d01c2804e$6e540640$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Bob Grumman wrote: > Well, I still think it'd be good for those poor saps of poets who > are interested in what poets unlike themselves might be up to. I > doubt there are many such folk around, certainly not at New-Poetry. Oh, now you are getting all sulky. I am interested in what poets unlike myself are doing. I am just not necessarily in what ALL parties currently called "poets" are doing. See the difference? That is why I prefer an editorial hand to guide me as I am learning something new. You want the catalog, great. I want an experienced guide who says "chuck out the Fodor's, son, and come with me, I have some real great shit to show you." c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 30 18:35:43 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:35:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6><006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> <006501c28000$8be214c0$47b9fea9@j1c1k6> <008d01c2804e$6e540640$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <013901c2806d$1124a500$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> > > Well, I still think it'd be good for those poor saps of poets who > > are interested in what poets unlike themselves might be up to. I > > doubt there are many such folk around, certainly not at New-Poetry. > > Oh, now you are getting all sulky. True. But your tone has the same kind of self-centered emotionality. > I am interested in what poets > unlike myself are doing. I am just not necessarily in what ALL parties > currently called "poets" are doing. See the difference? Yes. >That is why I > prefer an editorial hand to guide me as I am learning something new. That editorial hand could help you more, it seems to me, if it could direct you to a book like my proposed anthology and tell you to check out the chapter on the Highway 903 school of poetry. And that editorial hand would be more likely to know enough to direct you to poetry you'd like if he knew more than a limited amount about what's out there, as he would if he could consult said book. This is especially pertinent when you consider the fact that just about no editorial hand I know of seems to even know of the existence of many schools of poetry I know about. > You want the catalog, great. I want an experienced guide who says > "chuck out the Fodor's, son, and come with me, I have some real great > shit to show you." Bt what do you do if all your guides send you to the same real great shit? That, to me, is pretty much the case now. Even if it were not, I'd still want both kinds of anthologies. --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 30 18:37:47 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:37:47 -0500 Subject: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] References: <3DBE53A2.7386.39BE26@localhost><000a01c27f97$0e2fd440$eafafea9@j1c1k6><012a01c2801b$c524f0c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004901c2804c$3e0ceee0$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <014101c2806d$5abe3280$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> > On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Bob Grumman wrote: > > >> Anyone who doubts that you can make serious art with a paying > >> audience in mind should spend a day listening to Lionel Hampton, > >> Tito Puente and Louis Armstrong. > > > > Do you think these musicians composed what they thought would make > > money or aimed for music that pleased them, and were lucky enough, > > eventually, to pick up enough of an audience to make a living or > > more? > > Louis Armstrong is in a whole different class than Puente or Hampton, > particularly in coming onto the scene with a technique and musical > understanding that was practically sui generis. Hampton and Puente > were real innovators, of course, but I think of a magnitude less, at > least in my interpretation. But Armstrong and Hampton are famed for > their innovation, and it is a strange triad to choose them as possible > representatives of making art with an audience in mind. > > Armstrong had made it big by giving the audience something they had > never heard before-- long before he got lured away to vocals and show > tunes, as his letters, notebooks, and biographers attest. He is surely > not much of an example to argue about writing what the audience wants > to hear. > > Later production is arguable, as he started doing show tunes and-- > more problematic-- putting trumpet-playing aside in favor of vocals > (as good as he was). But as David Graham opened my eyes to when I > complained a bit about this, really listening to even this late music > shows a lot of innovation going on. > > How can an innovator like Armstrong-- how can ANY real innovator-- be > accused of pandering to an audience or writing music for them? Isn't > that exactly what innovation is NOT about? > > There is also the problem that in jazz, covering classic songs, even > what might be considered chestnuts (in the wrong hands) is an honored > pursuit as a grounds for innovation. So, the audience might always > shout for Coltrane to do "My Favorite Things" but only based on his > innovation in the first place, and a jazz musician will ensure his > legacy by doing something new each time. So even then, playing what > the audience wants is often hardly that. It takes stealthy craft to > subvert the popular demand and give them what they don't even know > they want. The best poets try to do this too. > > c Oops, we may agree on this, Chris. Watch out. --Bob G. From mandolin at mac.com Wed Oct 30 20:00:57 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:00:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Chronicle article: 10 Years After, Poetry Still Matters In-Reply-To: <1bd.11eefc59.2ae954af@aol.com> Message-ID: <36D68734-EC6C-11D6-AB20-000393C29586@mac.com> Did anybody else think this was odd? On Thursday, October 24, 2002, at 09:50 AM, Thom424 at aol.com posted an article from the Chronicle of Higher Education by John Palattella which said, among other things: > Since when, as Gioia suggests, has a poet's primary obligation > been to serve the interests of consumers? I don't mean to > imply that poets don't desire an audience. But isn't the first > duty of all poets not to readers but to language, their own as > well as their culture's? And would it be so terrible if the > only readers of a poet's work at any one time were other > poets, especially if those readers grasped, appreciated, and > promoted the work? > I wonder to whom the appreciative poet-readers would promote those works? /Consumers?/ But even stranger than a writer showing such contempt for readers is the idea of duty to language. What the hell does that look like? From mandolin at mac.com Wed Oct 30 21:01:31 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:01:31 -0500 Subject: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 06:15 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > How can an innovator like Armstrong-- how can ANY real innovator-- be > accused of pandering to an audience or writing music for them? Isn't > that exactly what innovation is NOT about? Writing for an audience is not the same as pandering. You can innovate by taking a known audience with with you to a new place--I'd say that is far more likely than innovation as a kind of immaculate conception. In any case, innovation is far from the sine qua non of artistry. From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Wed Oct 30 22:46:20 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:46:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021030160541.00a858c0@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021030160541.00a858c0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: Bourdieu has accounted for all of this in his *Rules of Art* and *The Field of Literary Production*. In a more oblique way, Victor Turner's *The Ritual Process* associates poetry with communitas as opposed to structure (where money, political power, and legal rights) are organized. ellen s. >Now that Bob Grumman has been driven into the ground with seven >golden piledrivers, I would just like to state for the record that >poetry is to money as the Jackson Five are to the Lucchesi crime >family. Do the math, dingos. > >Where the money is, there the goons will gather. > >Many considerable nerds and obnoxious types are trying to equate the >equator with an equation by implying by implication that poets, >musicians and visual artists are all deep in the you-know-doodoo. >This is vastly, HUGELY mistaken, not to mention utterly wrong. >Musicians & visual artists have been money-grubbers from the word >"go" (a word invented by poets, let's not forgo). For poets, on the >other hand, QUA POETS, money is merely compositional material, such >as for example blue cheese stamped in thin rectangular slices and >imprinted with the Gods of the Green Revolution whose last names all >end in "ton". > >QUA POETS, money is a simply subject for further peculation, as in >Jim Dante, Wilson Blake, and Bob Shucks Poor. As I say repeatedly, >it's a mere gumb or squelge - ask Gabby Gudding, he'll say "poop". > >POETS QUA POETS are stuck in their Firm, in there. Their Firm >(Formco.) Has NEBBER MABE INNY MUBBY. Get it? > >MUBBY IS DUBBY-DIRTY. As Walter Stevens wrote, "Money is a kind of Potty." > >Wilkie Collins & his little brother Billy believe in Poetry, but >they talk so much into the microphone that they are taken away >toward Washington carrying their SUV's tucked under their suburbs. >They burp too much. They are RICH, RICH RICH. Like many >professional poets today they know how to swing an angle over a >tennis racket, you can bet on that (back on the Rez!!) > >Henry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- From chris at chrislott.org Wed Oct 30 22:28:11 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:28:11 -0900 Subject: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] In-Reply-To: (Michael Snider's message of "Wed, 30 Oct 2002 21:01:31 -0500") References: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Michael Snider wrote: > Writing for an audience is not the same as pandering. You can > innovate by taking a known audience with with you to a new > place--I'd say that is far more likely than innovation as a kind of > immaculate conception. In any case, innovation is far from the sine > qua non of artistry. I don't think we are in disagreement here, at least in that innovation alone is no guarantee of artistry. It strictly isn't even necessary, though enough frittering at it will usually find a way to expose "innovation" anywhere that one finds something he or she likes. But as far my definitions go, one can't write "for" an audience and at the same time be taking them to a "new" place. That's the point-- they can't have an expectation precisely because it is new. This is, I believe, an accurate representaton of Louis Armstrong's place in the history of jazz. Audiences and players came away dumbfounded by what they had heard, some convinced it was not possible, and forced to face the irrationality that they knew what they had heard and knew they couldn't have heard it. We can get academic about it, but I don't need to-- that is one of the feelings by which I know great art. For me, Coltrane provided the exact same feeling. c From chris at chrislott.org Wed Oct 30 22:35:41 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:35:41 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <013901c2806d$1124a500$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s message of "Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:35:43 -0500") References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> <006501c28000$8be214c0$47b9fea9@j1c1k6> <008d01c2804e$6e540640$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> <013901c2806d$1124a500$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Bob Grumman wrote: > True. But your tone has the same kind of self-centered emotionality. I've got no problem with being emotional. I find the merely academic discussion to be a waste of time (unless one is pursuing tenure). But you still don't have to sulk... >>That is why I prefer an editorial hand to guide me as I am learning >> something new. > > That editorial hand could help you more, it seems to me, if it could > direct you to a book like my proposed anthology and tell you to > check out the chapter on the Highway 903 school of poetry. And that > editorial hand would be more likely to know enough to direct you to > poetry you'd like if he knew more than a limited amount about what's > out there, as he would if he could consult said book. This is > especially pertinent when you consider the fact that just about no > editorial hand I know of seems to even know of the existence of many > schools of poetry I know about. Because the map ain't the territory, and the connections between the selections representing schools would be as-- or more-- important to *me* as a reader. That's the problem with a survey. The problem with the ultimate survey, as you propose, is not *just* that no editorial hand can know all schools, it is that your conception would not allow for he or she to create a path that includes discarding some of the chaff along the way. That might be democracy in action, I suppose, but the ultimate result is a vast reference resource, not an artistic selection. >> You want the catalog, great. I want an experienced guide who says >> "chuck out the Fodor's, son, and come with me, I have some real >> great shit to show you." > > Bt what do you do if all your guides send you to the same real great > shit? That, to me, is pretty much the case now. Even if it were not, > I'd still want both kinds of anthologies. So instead of doing one better we should just get an atlas, or better yet the equivalent of the Congressional fact book, for the country and hope that the bland laying out of every possible fact should sustain us? Not for me, Bub. But if you ever get it done (which I doubt will ever happen since I don't think any compendium in the land could contain every conceivable school, and your idea is no good without someone serving as the arbiter to say "no, you aren't a school unto yourself, but a reprsentative of the post-confessional language limeracists" -- and the minute that is allowed to happen, the idea dies a gurgling, strangled death), I promise I will still buy it. c From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Oct 30 23:07:33 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:07:33 -0500 Subject: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] References: <3DBE53A2.7386.39BE26@localhost><000a01c27f97$0e2fd440$eafafea9@j1c1k6><012a01c2801b$c524f0c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004901c2804c$3e0ceee0$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> <014101c2806d$5abe3280$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <007601c28093$0a9240a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I think they were all extremely aware of the benefit of money. Virtually everyone in the 20th Century is of a magnitude below Armstrong -- I chose Hampton and Puente for no particular reason except that I think that, even with all the accolades they were given, they were still underrated -- people know they were great, but they don't realize HOW great they were. But I also chose all three because they were always aware of audiences, and always aware of making a buck. I don't think that this can't be consistent with making music that pleased them. When Joe Glazer told Louis Armstrong that if he wanted to make the big bucks, he'd have to expand his repertoire from New Orleans jazz pieces like "Royal Garden Blues," and start singing pop songs by white people, I don't think Armstrong would have done it if he hadn't found artistic pleasure in it...but I think he did it for the money. And don't forget that when Armstrong started recording pop tunes, he wasn't getting the A-list material, the Kern and Gershwin stuff. He was making great art out of songs like Carmen Lombardo's "Sweethearts on Parade." And it was in that period -- still the period of his greatest work -- that he went from a comfortable living to the big money. It's not especially relevant to the argument, but I've always loved the story Tito told about being a little miffed when people referred to "Oye Como Va" as "that Santana song," until the day he opened his mailbox and got the first royalty check from the Santana version. He said from then on, when someone requested "Oye Como Va," he'd say, "you mean that Santana song?" Yeah, you're lucky if your art coincides with popular tastes. You're also lucky if your genius leads you to popular forms, and feeds off the response of audiences. To say that is not remotely to accuse Armstrong, Hampton or Puente of pandering to audiences. My point was just the reverse. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 6:37 PM Subject: Re: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] > > > > On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > >> Anyone who doubts that you can make serious art with a paying > > >> audience in mind should spend a day listening to Lionel Hampton, > > >> Tito Puente and Louis Armstrong. > > > > > > Do you think these musicians composed what they thought would make > > > money or aimed for music that pleased them, and were lucky enough, > > > eventually, to pick up enough of an audience to make a living or > > > more? > > > > Louis Armstrong is in a whole different class than Puente or Hampton, > > particularly in coming onto the scene with a technique and musical > > understanding that was practically sui generis. Hampton and Puente > > were real innovators, of course, but I think of a magnitude less, at > > least in my interpretation. But Armstrong and Hampton are famed for > > their innovation, and it is a strange triad to choose them as possible > > representatives of making art with an audience in mind. > > > > Armstrong had made it big by giving the audience something they had > > never heard before-- long before he got lured away to vocals and show > > tunes, as his letters, notebooks, and biographers attest. He is surely > > not much of an example to argue about writing what the audience wants > > to hear. > > > > Later production is arguable, as he started doing show tunes and-- > > more problematic-- putting trumpet-playing aside in favor of vocals > > (as good as he was). But as David Graham opened my eyes to when I > > complained a bit about this, really listening to even this late music > > shows a lot of innovation going on. > > > > How can an innovator like Armstrong-- how can ANY real innovator-- be > > accused of pandering to an audience or writing music for them? Isn't > > that exactly what innovation is NOT about? > > > > There is also the problem that in jazz, covering classic songs, even > > what might be considered chestnuts (in the wrong hands) is an honored > > pursuit as a grounds for innovation. So, the audience might always > > shout for Coltrane to do "My Favorite Things" but only based on his > > innovation in the first place, and a jazz musician will ensure his > > legacy by doing something new each time. So even then, playing what > > the audience wants is often hardly that. It takes stealthy craft to > > subvert the popular demand and give them what they don't even know > > they want. The best poets try to do this too. > > > > c > > > Oops, we may agree on this, Chris. Watch out. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Oct 30 23:18:33 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:18:33 -0500 Subject: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] References: Message-ID: <00a101c28094$95014a00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> > On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Michael Snider wrote: > > > Writing for an audience is not the same as pandering. You can > > innovate by taking a known audience with with you to a new > > place--I'd say that is far more likely than innovation as a kind of > > immaculate conception. In any case, innovation is far from the sine > > qua non of artistry. > > I don't think we are in disagreement here, at least in that innovation > alone is no guarantee of artistry. It strictly isn't even necessary, > though enough frittering at it will usually find a way to expose > "innovation" anywhere that one finds something he or she likes. > > But as far my definitions go, one can't write "for" an audience and > at the same time be taking them to a "new" place. That's the point-- > they can't have an expectation precisely because it is new. This is, I > believe, an accurate representaton of Louis Armstrong's place in the > history of jazz. Audiences and players came away dumbfounded by what > they had heard, some convinced it was not possible, and forced to face > the irrationality that they knew what they had heard and knew they > couldn't have heard it. We can get academic about it, but I don't need > to-- that is one of the feelings by which I know great art. For me, > Coltrane provided the exact same feeling. > Chris -- for me, too. But Armstrong provided it for many, many more people. It doesn't make him a greater artist...but it certainly doesn't make him a lesser artist. From mandolin at mac.com Wed Oct 30 23:31:50 2002 From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:31:50 -0500 Subject: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We probab;y don;t disagree much. But writing "for an audience" is not the same as writing what you think the audience already wants--it may also mean writing for an audience that is prepared--or even that you have prepared--for something new. You can educate an audience. Armstrong's audiences came to hear jazz, after all, not, say, madrigals. And he deepened their understanding of what jazz could do. On Wednesday, October 30, 2002, at 10:28 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Michael Snider wrote: > >> Writing for an audience is not the same as pandering. You can >> innovate by taking a known audience with with you to a new >> place--I'd say that is far more likely than innovation as a kind of >> immaculate conception. In any case, innovation is far from the sine >> qua non of artistry. > > I don't think we are in disagreement here, at least in that innovation > alone is no guarantee of artistry. It strictly isn't even necessary, > though enough frittering at it will usually find a way to expose > "innovation" anywhere that one finds something he or she likes. > > But as far my definitions go, one can't write "for" an audience and > at the same time be taking them to a "new" place. That's the point-- > they can't have an expectation precisely because it is new. This is, I > believe, an accurate representaton of Louis Armstrong's place in the > history of jazz. Audiences and players came away dumbfounded by what > they had heard, some convinced it was not possible, and forced to face > the irrationality that they knew what they had heard and knew they > couldn't have heard it. We can get academic about it, but I don't need > to-- that is one of the feelings by which I know great art. For me, > Coltrane provided the exact same feeling. > > c > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 31 06:57:16 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 06:57:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6><006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> <006501c28000$8be214c0$47b9fea9@j1c1k6> <008d01c2804e$6e540640$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> <013901c2806d$1124a500$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <001f01c280d4$aa51b9e0$d66afea9@j1c1k6> > I find the merely academic my anthology would not be "merely academic." > discussion to be a waste of time (unless one is pursuing tenure). But > you still don't have to sulk... Ah, but before (and I hate Marcussing, but sometimes you have to), you indicated the anthology would be a good project--which suggests to my you DON'T think it'd be a waste of time. > >>That is why I prefer an editorial hand to guide me as I am learning > >> something new. > > > > That editorial hand could help you more, it seems to me, if it could > > direct you to a book like my proposed anthology and tell you to > > check out the chapter on the Highway 903 school of poetry. And that > > editorial hand would be more likely to know enough to direct you to > > poetry you'd like if he knew more than a limited amount about what's > > out there, as he would if he could consult said book. This is > > especially pertinent when you consider the fact that just about no > > editorial hand I know of seems to even know of the existence of many > > schools of poetry I know about. > > Because the map ain't the territory, and the connections between the > selections representing schools would be as-- or more-- important to > *me* as a reader. That's the problem with a survey. The problem with > the ultimate survey, as you propose, is not *just* that no editorial > hand can know all schools, it is that your conception would not allow > for he or she to create a path that includes discarding some of the > chaff along the way. The reader can't do this? >That might be democracy in action, I suppose, but > the ultimate result is a vast reference resource, not an artistic > selection. > >> You want the catalog, great. I want an experienced guide who says > >> "chuck out the Fodor's, son, and come with me, I have some real > >> great shit to show you." > > > > Bt what do you do if all your guides send you to the same real great > > shit? That, to me, is pretty much the case now. Even if it were not, > > I'd still want both kinds of anthologies. > So instead of doing one better we should just get an atlas, or better > yet the equivalent of the Congressional fact book, for the country and > hope that the bland laying out of every possible fact should sustain > us? Not for me, Bub. No. We get the editors to READ the atlas and learn where to go to find something that's not shit. And, of course, I'm not talking about absolute thoroughness, but of repreesenting every viable school (which the editor would make the final decision on, but would depend in part on the school's being at least somewhat visible--through work in SOME magazines, however small, etc. > But if you ever get it done (which I doubt will ever happen since I > don't think any compendium in the land could contain every conceivable > school, and your idea is no good without someone serving as the > arbiter to say "no, you aren't a school unto yourself, but a > reprsentative of the post-confessional language limeracists" -- and > the minute that is allowed to happen, the idea dies a gurgling, > strangled death), I promise I will still buy it. > c It would cause a lot of controversy if anyone read it, but that would be all to the good. And certainly better than standard anthology after standard anthology coming out, supported by the NEA and people like you. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Oct 31 08:05:26 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:05:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <013901c2806d$1124a500$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DC0E446.18124.27DB58@localhost> Grumman: > That editorial hand could help you more, it seems to me, if it could direct > you to a book like my proposed anthology and tell you to check out the > chapter on the Highway 903 school of poetry. And that editorial hand would > be more likely to know enough to direct you to poetry you'd like if he knew > more than a limited amount about what's out there, as he would if he could > consult said book. This is especially pertinent when you consider the fact > that just about no editorial hand I know of seems to even know of the > existence of many schools of poetry I know about.<< Perhaps the problem here is the very notion of "school of poetry" -- what does it take to get the classification of "school"? Is one person a "school"? Are three persons? Ten? Fifty? Is it a matter of number of adherents at all? Is it a matter of substantive difference? Could the "Garage Poet School" in Portland and the "Armadillo Poetry Army" in Tucson and the "Snailcrushers" in Tallahassee all actually be doing so much the same thing that it's not really a matter of three (or more) "schools of poetry" at all? Or are you willing to give any one person, or any group of persons, the appellation of "_______ School" if they just claim it? A taxonomy requires real differences, and that means not merely that the taxonomist *name* categories but that the categories *mean* something -- that the categories distinguish meaningfully. What do the "Highway 903" people do that is so different that they are a "school of poetry" that can be meaningfully distinguished from what other poets are doing? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Oct 31 08:22:05 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:22:05 -0500 Subject: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DC0E82D.29773.37192A@localhost> Chris Lott wrote: > > How can an innovator like Armstrong-- how can ANY real innovator-- be > > accused of pandering to an audience or writing music for them? Isn't > > that exactly what innovation is NOT about? Michael Snider: > Writing for an audience is not the same as pandering. You can innovate > by taking a known audience with with you to a new place--I'd say that > is far more likely than innovation as a kind of immaculate conception. > In any case, innovation is far from the sine qua non of artistry.<< Except for Bob Grumman -- just ask him. His view is that ONLY "new" stuff is really serious art -- or it was last time this came up. He used the Fosbury Flop as an example of how a new technique is better than, and replaces, an old technique to advocate the notion that his, and others', new techniques are better than and ought to replace all existing poetic techniques precisely because they *are* new, and newer is always better. And don't bother to point out to him that newer is not always better or that there's a difference between a measurable goal such as how high a person can jump and a subjective goal such as whether a poem is a good poem! No, he knows he's right that his and his pals's new techniques are the Fosbury Flop of contemporary poetry. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Oct 31 08:22:04 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:22:04 -0500 Subject: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] In-Reply-To: <014101c2806d$5abe3280$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DC0E82C.24287.3717FD@localhost> Bob G: > Do you think these musicians composed what they thought would make > money or aimed for music that pleased them, and were lucky enough, > eventually, to pick up enough of an audience to make a living or > more?<< It's still money for you, isn't it, Bob? You still seem to see some amount of money as the dividing line between "serious art" and "not serious art", and you seem to be saying both that "serious art" is art that makes "serious money" and that "serious art" is art that makes no money at all. You can't really have it both ways, Bob, because those claims are mutually contradictory -- and no resort to "lucky enough to..." will reconcile them. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Oct 31 08:35:48 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:35:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021030160541.00a858c0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3DC0EB64.1168.43AB09@localhost> Ellen: > Bourdieu has accounted for all of this in his *Rules of Art* and *The > Field of Literary Production*. In a more oblique way, Victor > Turner's *The Ritual Process* associates poetry with communitas as > opposed to structure (where money, political power, and legal rights) > are organized. Can't have it both ways, Ellen: either you have to go with Bourdieu's notion that art is a class-oriented and class-striving endeavor (and therefore intimately associated with the structure where money, political power and legal rights are organized) or you have to go with Turner's distinction between such endeavors. But simply putting the two in the same sentence doesn't do the trick of reconciling their differences. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu Oct 31 08:39:34 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:39:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021030160541.00a858c0@postoffice.brown.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20021030160541.00a858c0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021031075740.00aaa450@postoffice.brown.edu> At 10:46 PM 10/30/02 -0500, you wrote: >Bourdieu has accounted for all of this in his *Rules of Art* and *The >Field of Literary Production*. In a more oblique way, Victor Turner's >*The Ritual Process* associates poetry with communitas as opposed to >structure (where money, political power, and legal rights) are organized. >ellen s. Well, I am glad to hear that SOMEBODY official has been cleaning up all that poop. My favorite job in the academy was Monkey Feeder & Cage Cleaner for the Psych Dept. I have moved on to the library since then, but will always remember with delight the sounds & smells of those feral fellas. Interestingly, they were well-acquainted with Bourdieu. I would drop offhand phrases from his works in French & they would respond with a knowing wink or a tip of the chapeau (or a lifting of the rump or a short scream). I myself have nothing against money. I used to watch my Dad do the bills dutifully at the card table on Saturday afternoon. He was a careful man and still is, prudence is the word. He had people and things to take care of. He was a medieval man in that sense. Still is. Without the rule of law you have no freedom. Anarchism is for the chickadees - and they rejected it, by the way, in overwhelming margins at my feeder. Nor do I scorn political power, but on the other hand you won't find me waiting for the Cadillac outside my chateau in the gated community. I'm a medieval man in that sense. The trouble with expecting returns from poetry is that it's a distraction. The world makes noise but poetry comes from Saturn, using an ultra-fine transmission system which requires immense amounts of time and concentration to pick up. Any expectation that Saturnian wave-lengths might bounce off Creative Writing junkets or hob-nobbing with the litewawy crowd is just whistling in the turnip patch, to put it mildly. Henry From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Oct 31 08:49:09 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:49:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <001f01c280d4$aa51b9e0$d66afea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DC0EE85.14026.4FE4B9@localhost> > > Because the map ain't the territory, and the connections between the > > selections representing schools would be as-- or more-- important to > > *me* as a reader. That's the problem with a survey. The problem with > > the ultimate survey, as you propose, is not *just* that no editorial > > hand can know all schools, it is that your conception would not allow > > for he or she to create a path that includes discarding some of the > > chaff along the way. Bob Grumman: > The reader can't do this?<< Sure, the reader can do this -- if all he or she has to do with the entire rest of his or her life is read poems. But if nothing else it is the task of the taxonomist to reduce the necessity for the ordinary reader to read everything so that that reader can find the kind of stuff that reader likes to read. You seem to be confused about what a taxonomy is going to be used for, Bob -- you seem to think that it will be used to search out the new when in fact it will be much more commonly used to search out more of what the reader already likes. Further, though, a taxonomy of a subjective field such as poetry is not only not very desireable it is pretty silly right on the face of it -- after all there's always a new school of poetry and the taxonomist has to be willing either to accede to the impossibility of ever having a complete taxonomy or to evaluating all claims of "new school" and assigning such "new schools" to categories of old schools. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Oct 31 09:13:22 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:13:22 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021030160541.00a858c0@postoffice.brown.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20021030160541.00a858c0@postoffice.brown.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20021031075740.00aaa450@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3DC13A82.511DB0AC@earthlink.net> Henry Gold no whatof he speakes hanging with monkees and birds. His chapeau is lidless and he looks at Grumman damage like bookkeeping mistakes. - quoting billie, not BILLY, my friend Henry Gould wrote: > > At 10:46 PM 10/30/02 -0500, you wrote: > >Bourdieu has accounted for all of this in his *Rules of Art* and *The > >Field of Literary Production*. In a more oblique way, Victor Turner's > >*The Ritual Process* associates poetry with communitas as opposed to > >structure (where money, political power, and legal rights) are organized. > >ellen s. > > Well, I am glad to hear that SOMEBODY official has been cleaning up all > that poop. > > My favorite job in the academy was Monkey Feeder & Cage Cleaner for the > Psych Dept. I have moved on to the library since then, but will always > remember with delight the sounds & smells of those feral > fellas. Interestingly, they were well-acquainted with Bourdieu. I would > drop offhand phrases from his works in French & they would respond with a > knowing wink or a tip of the chapeau (or a lifting of the rump or a short > scream). > > I myself have nothing against money. I used to watch my Dad do the bills > dutifully at the card table on Saturday afternoon. He was a careful man > and still is, prudence is the word. He had people and things to take care > of. He was a medieval man in that sense. Still is. Without the rule of > law you have no freedom. Anarchism is for the chickadees - and they > rejected it, by the way, in overwhelming margins at my feeder. Nor do I > scorn political power, but on the other hand you won't find me waiting for > the Cadillac outside my chateau in the gated community. I'm a medieval man > in that sense. > > The trouble with expecting returns from poetry is that it's a > distraction. The world makes noise but poetry comes from Saturn, using an > ultra-fine transmission system which requires immense amounts of time and > concentration to pick up. Any expectation that Saturnian wave-lengths > might bounce off Creative Writing junkets or hob-nobbing with the litewawy > crowd is just whistling in the turnip patch, to put it mildly. > > Henry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Oct 31 09:28:02 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:28:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff In-Reply-To: <3DC13A82.511DB0AC@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3DC0F7A2.13824.737C29@localhost> Henry Gould: > > The trouble with expecting returns from poetry is that it's a > > distraction....<< Just so. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu Oct 31 10:31:33 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:31:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry & money Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021031100556.00ab8d20@postoffice.brown.edu> Since I have so many inspirational words of wisdom on this subject, I will proceed, ladies & gentlement. These impressions & insights come from one whose highest-paying job ever was writing resumes. I was let go after a few months (couldn't charge enough). Let me just say that while I think poetry & money have trouble getting together, I revere good teachers, and I hold freelance writers in awe. Poets sometimes pop up in those professional categories. Alexander Pushkin was very firm & consistent on this issue. He stated that he simply could not write for money. The inspiration was not there. He wrote for writing. But he felt perfectly justified in selling his work once it was written, and did his best to play the role of professional writer. In doing so he helped lay the foundation for what free culture there is in Russia, so I'm told (by Igor Shlutzkip, in his cups). Doctors, lawyers and engineers are nothing to sneeze at. My deepest respect, however, goes to Romany violin players, professional circus people, and Gabriel Gudding. Professional poets who uphold the circus tradition are true Kultur-Heroischesgammenstrudele in my buch. John Milton would have joined the circus if he hadn't married so young - he mentions this repeatedly in his messages from Saturn. Youngsters, take note. If your CW Program does not include an in-depth course - at least 2 semesters - in Circus Practicum, it's time to drop out and panhandle for a few decades. You will learn more on the streets in one week than you will ever pick up from College Prep Poetry 101. Money isn't everything - it's just a fiber (HOWEVER, a proviso is in order! some money, you will discover, is metal. And we will get into plastic next week. class dismissed). Now, as regards poetry. As I was saying, Poetry comes from Saturn. Saturn is the 6th planet from the Sun, very large, gaseous, and surrounded by colored rings. For this week, I would like each of you to spend one hour a day in your room, as quietly as possible, listening for transmissions from Saturn, and writing them down. This includes you, Gudding. No cheating, no copying other people's transmissions, no making up transmissions. No showing off. No pretending to yourself. Transmissions from Saturn, as you will discover, come in complicated speech patterns, often running to 10 or 12 stanzas or 60-90 lines (iambic pentameter is favored but not required). You may need herb tea to help you through this - anything stronger is unadvisable (John Milton drank only water). Nobody said it would be easy (except Mozart, the bum). Shakespeare doesn't count - he was Saturnian by birth. His real name was Xlochopocatepetl Joe. Henry From johndegen at cmpa.ca Thu Oct 31 10:52:12 2002 From: johndegen at cmpa.ca (John Degen) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:52:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Jazz Poets and a painter References: <3DBE53A2.7386.39BE26@localhost><000a01c27f97$0e2fd440$eafafea9@j1c1k6><012a01c2801b$c524f0c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004901c2804c$3e0ceee0$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> <014101c2806d$5abe3280$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> <007601c28093$0a9240a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <00fe01c280f5$7a17acf0$1b01a8c0@NEWJOHND> list newbie here goin' out on a limb... I think Miles Davis, despite his rich daddy and his affected ignoring of the audience, was all too well aware of who paid the heroin bills, and yet there he also sits up in the topmost branches with uncle Louis. When you're breaking all the rules and the kids are eating it up, do you suddenly feel less like breaking the rules, for art's sake? And yet -- and let this not be misinterpreted as agreement with what is a pretty silly assertion about money and art -- some of his later performances, the five note cameos, are a great example of what the whopping big cheque can, sometimes, do to an artist's motivation. And to answer a recent slag on the visual arts, what of Willem de Kooning? His later paintings were making millions of bucks each before they were even dry and he was still eating tuna salad sandwiches, riding a broken down bicycle, and brilliantly scratching away at the canvas. Revealing my Canadianness with the spelling of cheque... I think you might find a few more of us lurking here. --jd ----- Original Message ----- From: "theoldmole" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:07 PM Subject: Re: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] > I think they were all extremely aware of the benefit of money. > > Virtually everyone in the 20th Century is of a magnitude below Armstrong -- > I chose Hampton and Puente for no particular reason except that I think > that, even with all the accolades they were given, they were still > underrated -- people know they were great, but they don't realize HOW great > they were. But I also chose all three because they were always aware of > audiences, and always aware of making a buck. I don't think that this can't > be consistent with making music that pleased them. > > When Joe Glazer told Louis Armstrong that if he wanted to make the big > bucks, he'd have to expand his repertoire from New Orleans jazz pieces like > "Royal Garden Blues," and start singing pop songs by white people, I don't > think Armstrong would have done it if he hadn't found artistic pleasure in > it...but I think he did it for the money. And don't forget that when > Armstrong started recording pop tunes, he wasn't getting the A-list > material, the Kern and Gershwin stuff. He was making great art out of songs > like Carmen Lombardo's "Sweethearts on Parade." And it was in that period -- > still the period of his greatest work -- that he went from a comfortable > living to the big money. > > It's not especially relevant to the argument, but I've always loved the > story Tito told about being a little miffed when people referred to "Oye > Como Va" as "that Santana song," until the day he opened his mailbox and got > the first royalty check from the Santana version. He said from then on, when > someone requested "Oye Como Va," he'd say, "you mean that Santana song?" > > Yeah, you're lucky if your art coincides with popular tastes. You're also > lucky if your genius leads you to popular forms, and feeds off the response > of audiences. To say that is not remotely to accuse Armstrong, Hampton or > Puente of pandering to audiences. My point was just the reverse. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Grumman" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 6:37 PM > Subject: Re: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] > > > > > > > > > On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > > > > >> Anyone who doubts that you can make serious art with a paying > > > >> audience in mind should spend a day listening to Lionel Hampton, > > > >> Tito Puente and Louis Armstrong. > > > > > > > > Do you think these musicians composed what they thought would make > > > > money or aimed for music that pleased them, and were lucky enough, > > > > eventually, to pick up enough of an audience to make a living or > > > > more? > > > > > > Louis Armstrong is in a whole different class than Puente or Hampton, > > > particularly in coming onto the scene with a technique and musical > > > understanding that was practically sui generis. Hampton and Puente > > > were real innovators, of course, but I think of a magnitude less, at > > > least in my interpretation. But Armstrong and Hampton are famed for > > > their innovation, and it is a strange triad to choose them as possible > > > representatives of making art with an audience in mind. > > > > > > Armstrong had made it big by giving the audience something they had > > > never heard before-- long before he got lured away to vocals and show > > > tunes, as his letters, notebooks, and biographers attest. He is surely > > > not much of an example to argue about writing what the audience wants > > > to hear. > > > > > > Later production is arguable, as he started doing show tunes and-- > > > more problematic-- putting trumpet-playing aside in favor of vocals > > > (as good as he was). But as David Graham opened my eyes to when I > > > complained a bit about this, really listening to even this late music > > > shows a lot of innovation going on. > > > > > > How can an innovator like Armstrong-- how can ANY real innovator-- be > > > accused of pandering to an audience or writing music for them? Isn't > > > that exactly what innovation is NOT about? > > > > > > There is also the problem that in jazz, covering classic songs, even > > > what might be considered chestnuts (in the wrong hands) is an honored > > > pursuit as a grounds for innovation. So, the audience might always > > > shout for Coltrane to do "My Favorite Things" but only based on his > > > innovation in the first place, and a jazz musician will ensure his > > > legacy by doing something new each time. So even then, playing what > > > the audience wants is often hardly that. It takes stealthy craft to > > > subvert the popular demand and give them what they don't even know > > > they want. The best poets try to do this too. > > > > > > c > > > > > > Oops, we may agree on this, Chris. Watch out. > > > > --Bob G. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Oct 31 10:55:29 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:55:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: poetry & money Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F90@mail.ripon.edu> Thanks for the information, Henry. The Saturn connection really helps explain the vexed link between jazz, poetry, and money, I feel. The previously obscure link is, of course, Sun Ra, that innovative jazzman from the ringed planet, obviously a reincarnation of Shakespeare come back to show us the error of our ways. (Since so few of us seem to be listening to Dana Gioia.) As you will recall, Sun Ra was incorporating fire eaters and plate twirlers into his shows by the end of his life--a lesson in populism for us all. That slacker Louis Armstrong merely waved his white hanky and sang showtunes on the Mike Douglass Show--Sun Ra could compete quite comfortably with any dog act or mime. And, no less than Armstrong, he was a real artist. We must not fail to be entertaining, as you have reminded me. Thank you. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ > ---------- > From: Henry Gould > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 9:31 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry & money > > Since I have so many inspirational words of wisdom on this subject, I will > > proceed, ladies & gentlement. > > These impressions & insights come from one whose highest-paying job ever > was writing resumes. I was let go after a few months (couldn't charge > enough). > > Let me just say that while I think poetry & money have trouble getting > together, I revere good teachers, and I hold freelance writers in > awe. Poets sometimes pop up in those professional categories. > > Alexander Pushkin was very firm & consistent on this issue. He stated > that > he simply could not write for money. The inspiration was not there. He > wrote for writing. But he felt perfectly justified in selling his work > once it was written, and did his best to play the role of professional > writer. In doing so he helped lay the foundation for what free culture > there is in Russia, so I'm told (by Igor Shlutzkip, in his cups). > > Doctors, lawyers and engineers are nothing to sneeze at. > > My deepest respect, however, goes to Romany violin players, professional > circus people, and Gabriel Gudding. Professional poets who uphold the > circus tradition are true Kultur-Heroischesgammenstrudele in my buch. > John > Milton would have joined the circus if he hadn't married so young - he > mentions this repeatedly in his messages from Saturn. Youngsters, take > note. If your CW Program does not include an in-depth course - at least 2 > > semesters - in Circus Practicum, it's time to drop out and panhandle for a > > few decades. You will learn more on the streets in one week than you will > > ever pick up from College Prep Poetry 101. Money isn't everything - it's > just a fiber (HOWEVER, a proviso is in order! some money, you will > discover, is metal. And we will get into plastic next week. class > dismissed). > > Now, as regards poetry. As I was saying, Poetry comes from Saturn. > Saturn > is the 6th planet from the Sun, very large, gaseous, and surrounded by > colored rings. For this week, I would like each of you to spend one hour > a > day in your room, as quietly as possible, listening for transmissions from > > Saturn, and writing them down. This includes you, Gudding. No cheating, > no copying other people's transmissions, no making up transmissions. No > showing off. No pretending to yourself. Transmissions from Saturn, as > you > will discover, come in complicated speech patterns, often running to 10 or > > 12 stanzas or 60-90 lines (iambic pentameter is favored but not > required). You may need herb tea to help you through this - anything > stronger is unadvisable (John Milton drank only water). Nobody said it > would be easy (except Mozart, the bum). Shakespeare doesn't count - he > was > Saturnian by birth. His real name was Xlochopocatepetl Joe. > > Henry > > From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Oct 31 11:09:47 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:09:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <001f01c280d4$aa51b9e0$d66afea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: { Ah, but before (and I hate Marcussing, but sometimes you have to), you { indicated the anthology would be a good project--which suggests to my you { DON'T think it'd be a waste of time. Hey, look, Marcus. You've been gerundized! Success at last, at any cost, eh? Hal Regime change begins at home. Vote! Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From smith948 at duq.edu Thu Oct 31 11:57:09 2002 From: smith948 at duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:57:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff In-Reply-To: <3DC0EB64.1168.43AB09@localhost> Message-ID: Marcus, I am not trying to have it both ways. Please reread or read Bourdieu. His theory has it that the field of literary production is autonomous to the field of power, this latter of which is associated with the active, "masculine" principle and is intimately tied to property, power, and logos (or law). At the end of the 19th century this autonomy of art was assured, he observes, with the proliferation of "art for art's sake" movements and positionings of the author as other than the bourgeoisie (Flaubert and Baudelaire are important examples here). In the process, the inverse relationship between commercial success and literary prestige/integrity formed the basis of much thought on the role of the artist vis a vis the field of power. So, the assumption that has been discussed in this thread has a lot to do with the schema drawn up by Bourdieu. As for Turner, he does not deal directly with poetry in The Ritual Process. However, in his ethnographies of the Ndembu peoples of Africa, he identifies some features of ritual that, he argues, apply as well to structure and community in developed societies. This includes liminality, Which has to do lack of property and positionstatus, everything that structure (the equivalent of Bourdieu's field of power relations) includes. Both Turner and Bourdieu, then, position communitas/liminality/poetry as passive/contemplative/subordinate/"feminine" in relation to the active spheres of structure and power. This is all the time I have right now to go into this. The best thing would be for you to read these things rather than polemicize what I say about them in such a way that you accuse me of saying what I have not. Happy Halloween. Ellen s. Ellen Smith On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Marcus Bales wrote: > Ellen: > > Bourdieu has accounted for all of this in his *Rules of Art* and *The > > Field of Literary Production*. In a more oblique way, Victor > > Turner's *The Ritual Process* associates poetry with communitas as > > opposed to structure (where money, political power, and legal rights) > > are organized. > > Can't have it both ways, Ellen: either you have to go with Bourdieu's > notion that art is a class-oriented and class-striving endeavor (and > therefore intimately associated with the structure where money, > political power and legal rights are organized) or you have to go > with Turner's distinction between such endeavors. But simply putting > the two in the same sentence doesn't do the trick of reconciling > their differences. > > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Oct 31 12:25:30 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:25:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Halloween Poems by Others: James McManus, "Gespensterwellen" Message-ID: Gespensterwellen What's a ghost? I overhear him say with tingling energy. One word or less. One who will *not fade away* through radical time or chord changes, bad manners, or death. Not even from too-minty breath. Plus that weird Alec Guinness premonition, or early deja vu, that James Dean totals his Porsche at noon the afternoon before it happens? Good reason for Shane to drink Guinness. Photographing, dating, painting or naming ghosts helps, but once she waves bye-bye everything follows with most unfair certainty, like a prayer almost, goosing the market for art stars. Take Moira's fisheater farts in the kitchen or, worse, under our blue Ramberg quilt: void where prohibited. Women! Those richards! Those wearers of certain underwear! I mean how *dare* they? Yet such things do have a way of turning out to be pretty much what we will make of them anyway. Like am I wanton or wanted or wonton I wonder. I cancer us, in Japanese, I'm on my knees to cancel us. But please don't be putting my pretty big head into that little git hat just yet. I've done my duty, Mack, so that's enough of that. Face it. I'm grotty. My hair's way too long. Paint it black, '69, speedballs and crunchy. Amen. --James McManus fr. *Great America* [New York: HarperCollins, 1993] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Henry_Gould at Brown.edu Thu Oct 31 13:20:43 2002 From: Henry_Gould at Brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:20:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Saturnian vibes from the other Gould Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021031130945.00ab0630@postoffice.brown.edu> from: India Point 9 Bands of muffled sunlight over the water above low gray cloud banks. The Bay is wintry today. The old man you see, patched in ragged bundles, tottering like Orpheus taking baby steps (she let go her hand) looking for the key perhaps, back to the womb (as he is, lapsed from world-lap). Orpheus the hobo. Autumn brings on the cold distances. His vagrancy resembles a jumbled freedom, aimless, trembling since her touch withdrew. Since then, a little touched. Head-wounded, light-touched, sounded, he sounds. * Ripple of finger-water over the keys long ago in Mendelssohn (pianissimo). Quadrilateral structure fanning from your palm, a fugitive touchstone unfurls through lightweight bone: light-weighted simultaneous drum- ming above chambered metronome and spiral nautilus make homespun harmony. Time comes undone as prodigal Hand begins to roam and quiver like Northern Light some motionless afternoon, near the drone of the river (where you tossed a stone from shore deep into Hobo Kingdom). 10.30.02 [Author's Note: cf. "Mendelssohn", above: the Author spent his childhood in a little neighborhood called Mendelssohn, on the Hopkins-Edina border, outside Minneapolis, about halfway between the trailer park and the prep school.] From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Oct 31 13:20:28 2002 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:20:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Popularity Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F91@mail.ripon.edu> A lot of the discussion of writing to an audience, making money from poetry, and so forth seems to assume that there is some necessary correlation between popularity and quality--whether negatively or positively. I don't think that there is. Maya Angelou and Robert Frost both sell a lot of books. Your Favorite Neglected Poet and Hugo L. Bogwater III sell very few books, but I am not sure that that tells us anything about relative quality. Is it possible to sell out as a poet, and reap (relative) big bucks for inferior work? Well, I suppose so. You could argue that Frost in his later years was deliberately peddling a cheap knockoff version of himself in order to keep the sales figures up. But as a matter of fact, it's *hard* to sell out, even when you try. Most fail, just as most fail at achieving quality. Plenty of folks could write as badly as Rod McKuen, as a matter of fact--it's still a mystery as to why he was touched by the goddess of commercial success, when so many other, equally putrid poets were not. Accident seems to have as much to do with why some poets get popular as intention does. ============================================ David Graham Professor of English, Ripon College grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html My Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html "We're writing the book on quality: personal, undergraduate education." Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu ============================================ From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu Oct 31 13:27:19 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:27:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff In-Reply-To: References: <3DC0EB64.1168.43AB09@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021031132054.00ac02e0@postoffice.brown.edu> Ellen Smith, this is serious stuff! It seems that "movements and positionings" of art for art's sake would have to be considered structuring activities as well, the establishing of power/prestige relations in an alternate universe. The way the commune often seemed to produce a Head Honcho or Inside Group. I spoze Bourdieu takes care o'that too. Henry At 11:57 AM 10/31/02 -0500, you wrote: >Marcus, >I am not trying to have it both ways. Please reread or read Bourdieu. >His theory has it that the field of literary production is autonomous to >the field of power, this latter of which is associated with the active, >"masculine" principle and is intimately tied to property, power, and logos >(or law). At the end of the 19th century this autonomy of art was >assured, he observes, with the proliferation of "art for art's sake" >movements and positionings of the author as other than the bourgeoisie >(Flaubert and Baudelaire are important examples here). In the process, >the inverse relationship between commercial success and literary >prestige/integrity formed the basis of much thought on the role of the >artist vis a vis the field of power. So, the assumption that has been >discussed in this thread has a lot to do with the schema drawn up by >Bourdieu. > As for Turner, he does not deal directly with poetry in The Ritual >Process. However, in his ethnographies of the Ndembu peoples of Africa, >he identifies some features of ritual that, he argues, apply as well to >structure and community in developed societies. This includes liminality, >Which has to do lack of property and positionstatus, everything that >structure (the equivalent of Bourdieu's field of power relations) >includes. Both Turner and Bourdieu, then, position >communitas/liminality/poetry as >passive/contemplative/subordinate/"feminine" in relation to the active >spheres of structure and power. > This is all the time I have right now to go into this. The best >thing would be for you to read these things rather than polemicize what I >say about them in such a way that you accuse me of saying what I have not. > Happy Halloween. >Ellen s. From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Oct 31 13:32:41 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:32:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Halloween Poems by Others: Theodore Enslin, "Witch Hazel" Message-ID: Witch Hazel This: That is my straight-flying fury. And not this: The dead bone of poetics buried under sacramental clouds of sleep or of wine, or too much awareness of things that are not there: Ghosts. I will make directly through the woods where the early and late witch hazel keep blossoms in a long season. Cut me a switch! I am not likely to tire on that walk direct between March and October-- oddly alike and seldom linked-- cut me a switch! Divided for the water, the well should be here. An old cellar hole dropping away to the infinite side of the hill and the sunset. This should be blind water's well. Switch cut? Very well. Begin here. But straight-flying is my time of day, and no ruins but for rocks to build. Nostalgia is along the way and very well, but no stopover. Cut me another switch, I found that well. The water is good: Cold and clear through ten feet of gravel and sand. It clears itself. Cut me a switch to whip old ghosts through sunsets to the morning. --Theodore Enslin fr. *The Work Proposed* [Kyoto: Origin Press, 1958] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Oct 31 13:48:45 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:48:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Halloween Poems by Others: Han Yu, "Poem on Losing One's Teeth" Message-ID: Poem on Losing One's Teeth Last year I lost an incisor and this year a molar, and now half a dozen more teeth fall out all at once--and that's not the end of it either. The rest are all loose, and I know there's no end till they're all gone. The first one, I thought what a shame for that obscene gap! Two or three, and I thought I was falling apart, almost at death's door. Before, when one loosened, I quaked and hoped wildly it "wouldn't." The gaps made it hard to chew and with a loose tooth I'd rinse my mouth gingerly. Then when at last it fell out it felt like a mountain collapsing. But now I've got used to this Nothing earthshaking. I've still twenty left, though I know one by one they'll all go. But at one tooth per year it will take me two decades, and gone, all gone, will it matter they went one by one and not all at the same time? People say when your teeth go it's certain the end's near. But seems to me life has its limits, you die when you die either with or without teeth. They also say gaps scare the people who see you. Well two views to everything as Chuang Tzu noted: A blasted tree need not necessarily be cut down, though geese that don't hiss be slaughtered. For the toothless who mumble silence has its advantage, and those who can't chew will find soft food tastes better. This is a poem I chanted and wrote to startle my wife and children. --Han Yu (768-824) tr. Kenneth O. Hanson [fr. *Sunflower Splendor: Three Thousand Years of Chinese Poetry*, Indiana Univ. Press, 1975] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From chris at chrislott.org Thu Oct 31 14:04:56 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:04:56 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <3DC0EE85.14026.4FE4B9@localhost> ("Marcus Bales"'s message of "Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:49:09 -0500") References: <3DC0EE85.14026.4FE4B9@localhost> Message-ID: >> > That's the problem with a survey. >> > The problem with the ultimate survey, as you propose, is not >> > *just* that no editorial hand can know all schools, it is that >> > your conception would not allow for he or she to create a path >> > that includes discarding some of the chaff along the way. > > Bob Grumman: > The reader can't do this?<< I'm quoting from Marcus' quote because I didn't receive this message of Bob's. But to answer: they COULD, but they usually DON'T and they generally shouldn't HAVE TO. Your idea of a classification on schools is based on providing a convenience to the readers so that they don't have to do this, though they could. An anthology has a similar purpose, at least in the most abstract, to provide a service for the readers so they don't have to plow through all the poems in the world to create their own path, but can still be exposed to and enjoy the art along the way. Just as you CAN buy a ticket to Paris and show up with no materials at all, neither your bushel of statistics or my better Fodor's guide and still have a good experience: given enough time, effort, motivation, and perhaps some quixotic notions of "real travel." I agree with Marcus here: > Further, though, a taxonomy of a subjective field such as poetry is > not only not very desireable it is pretty silly right on the face of > it -- after all there's always a new school of poetry and the > taxonomist has to be willing either to accede to the impossibility > of ever having a complete taxonomy or to evaluating all claims of > "new school" and assigning such "new schools" to categories of old > schools. because once the person(s) making choices get to start choosing what text go into what schools based on their own evaluation, you have lost the supposed objectivity that you seem to so desperately want. c From chris at chrislott.org Thu Oct 31 14:15:02 2002 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:15:02 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Popularity In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F91@mail.ripon.edu> ("Graham, David"'s message of "Thu, 31 Oct 2002 12:20:28 -0600") References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F91@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, David Graham wrote: > Is it possible to sell out as a poet, and reap (relative) big bucks > for inferior work? Well, I suppose so. You could argue that Frost in > his later years was deliberately peddling a cheap knockoff version > of himself in order to keep the sales figures up. It certainly seems to happen a lot in music, where there are big bucks to be had. Perhaps the relative scarcity of "real money" in poetry makes it hard to follow the same path. However, there seem to be many poets who write some good stuff and then settle back into repetition and/or shallowness: Ginsberg and Donald Hall to name just a couple of very different examples (in my opinion, don't bother flaming). > But as a matter of fact, it's *hard* to sell out, even when you try. > Most fail, just as most fail at achieving quality. Plenty of folks > could write as badly as Rod McKuen, as a matter of fact--it's still > a mystery as to why he was touched by the goddess of commercial > success, when so many other, equally putrid poets were not. That's the other kind of "selling out" (I don't like the term in this case, because selling out implies, to me, having a position of authority/respect in the first place). McKuen wasn't a sellout because he was never any good in the first place... but he certainly represents a position similar to Kenny G in the music business, where everyone into the art as a whole hates him, but he sells millions and millions. Presumably because of the generally non-poetry reading audience that would buy his books, just like those who listen to very little jazz will buy Keenny's latest twaddle. I agree that it must come down to chance. The lucky ones are those who are making great art who happen to have their stars in alignment and become popular. Other jazz examples in recent threads illustrate this, including Armstrong and Davis. I would argue there is more going on in later, electric Davis than many give him credit for, but I'd have to be stupid to say that he wasn't thinking about money as well... but his later pop familiarity came after a long period of musical contribution. And I suspect most of his anti-art, pro-money talk was for show anyway, a put-on as calculated as stance towards the audience when he was performing. c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 31 15:10:59 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:10:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA References: <3DC0EE85.14026.4FE4B9@localhost> Message-ID: <002801c28119$a2007660$02f0fea9@j1c1k6> > >> > That's the problem with a survey. > >> > The problem with the ultimate survey, as you propose, is not > >> > *just* that no editorial hand can know all schools, it is that > >> > your conception would not allow for he or she to create a path > >> > that includes discarding some of the chaff along the way. > > > > Bob Grumman: > The reader can't do this?<< > > I'm quoting from Marcus' quote because I didn't receive this message of > Bob's. But to answer: they COULD, but they usually DON'T and they > generally shouldn't HAVE TO. Only the most stupidly passive reader wouldn't automatically. > Your idea of a classification on schools is based on providing a > convenience to the readers so that they don't have to do this, though > they could. Ridiculous parallel. It would take years for any reader--assuming he got a lot more help from poets and critics than I have--merely to list the schools that are out there, much less collect enough poems from each school to make his selection from. It would take him a single read of an anthology to find the chaff in it and discard it. As far as I'm concerned, the rest of what you have to say similarly indicates that you have little idea what I want to do. I'm too tired to continue to try to explain myself. I gave my idea of what projects I'd want to do if I were in Collins's place. That's all I wanted to do. Has anyone else presented any ideas? --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 31 15:33:39 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:33:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA References: <3DC0E446.18124.27DB58@localhost> Message-ID: <00b701c2811c$cc6f2a60$02f0fea9@j1c1k6> > Perhaps the problem here is the very notion of "school of poetry" -- > what does it take to get the classification of "school"? Trade secret. Get the NEA to subsidize me and I'll do some classifying, and then let everyone know the secret behind the process. (Clue: it won't be much different from the way groups have been classified as schools in the past. See especially schools of painting.) --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 31 15:37:07 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:37:07 -0500 Subject: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] References: <3DC0E82D.29773.37192A@localhost> Message-ID: <00d701c2811d$47e32b60$02f0fea9@j1c1k6> > Except for Bob Grumman -- just ask him. His view is that ONLY "new" > stuff is really serious art -- or it was last time this came up. He > used the Fosbury Flop as an example of how a new technique is better > than, and replaces, an old technique to advocate the notion that his, > and others', new techniques are better than and ought to replace all > existing poetic techniques precisely because they *are* new, and > newer is always better. And don't bother to point out to him that > newer is not always better or that there's a difference between a > measurable goal such as how high a person can jump and a subjective > goal such as whether a poem is a good poem! No, he knows he's right > that his and his pals's new techniques are the Fosbury Flop of > contemporary poetry. > > > Marcus Bales I will only note that Marcus has somewhat distorted my views. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Oct 31 16:46:54 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:46:54 -0500 Subject: The Jazz Poets [was Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA] In-Reply-To: <00d701c2811d$47e32b60$02f0fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DC15E7E.26232.2055871@localhost> Marcus: > > Except for Bob Grumman -- just ask him. His view is that ONLY "new" > > stuff is really serious art -- or it was last time this came up. He > > used the Fosbury Flop as an example of how a new technique is better > > than, and replaces, an old technique to advocate the notion that his, > > and others', new techniques are better than and ought to replace all > > existing poetic techniques precisely because they *are* new, and > > newer is always better. And don't bother to point out to him that > > newer is not always better or that there's a difference between a > > measurable goal such as how high a person can jump and a subjective > > goal such as whether a poem is a good poem! No, he knows he's right > > that his and his pals's new techniques are the Fosbury Flop of > > contemporary poetry. Bob G: > I will only note that Marcus has somewhat distorted my views.<< LOL! Well, I've made your views a little more reasonable and a little less outrageous, it is true, but it seems to me you ought to be thankful for that. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Oct 31 17:01:56 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:01:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA In-Reply-To: <002801c28119$a2007660$02f0fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3DC16204.23524.2131DC8@localhost> Chris: > > >> > That's the problem with a survey. > > >> > The problem with the ultimate survey, as you propose, is not > > >> > *just* that no editorial hand can know all schools, it is that > > >> > your conception would not allow for he or she to create a path > > >> > that includes discarding some of the chaff along the way. > > > > > > Bob Grumman: > The reader can't do this?<< Chris: > ... But to answer: they COULD, but they usually DON'T and they > > generally shouldn't HAVE TO. Bob G: > Only the most stupidly passive reader wouldn't automatically.<< I have to assume here that the thing even the most stupidly passive reader would automatically do is discard the chaff as he or she read through the entirety of all poetry in order to find a path through to the sorts of poetry that that reader likes -- is that right, Bob? But Chris's point is that it ought to be the editor who creates that path, discarding most of the chaff (no one could discard it all, of course, tastes being what they are) on behalf of the reader precisely so the reader wouldn't have to read reams and reams of poetry in order to find what he or she wanted. The dispute here seems to be that Chris (and I agree with him) wants an editorial leadership that does more than merely passively (and perhaps stupidly) collect a representative sample of every passing poetic fad and call each one a "school of poetry" just because the practitioners claim it is. Chris wants, I think, an editorial judgment that does considerably more than that -- one that says "These folks claim to be a school of poetry but they're really more of the same of this school of poetry, or a re-hashing of that school of poetry, or undistinguished derivatives of another school of poetry, and ought to be classified not as a separate school but as followers of the _____ school", and the like. You are apparently willing, it appears, to grant "school" status to every junior high schooler who use "2" instead of "to" and calls it mathemaku. Chris: > > Your idea of a classification on schools is based on providing a > > convenience to the readers so that they don't have to do this, though > > they could. Bob G: > Ridiculous parallel. It would take years for any reader--assuming he got a > lot more help from poets and critics than I have--merely to list the schools > that are out there, much less collect enough poems from each school to make > his selection from. It would take him a single read of an anthology to find > the chaff in it and discard it.<< Tired of arguing on your own side? Thought Chris's side wasn't doing too well so you decided to make his point for him? Come on, Bob -- confused as many of your points often seem to be, are you really so confused about this that you think that arguing against your own viewpoint is persuasive? Bob G: > As far as I'm concerned, the rest of what you have to say similarly > indicates that you have little idea what I want to do. I'm too tired to > continue to try to explain myself. << Well, too tired is a change from too busy -- I'll give you that, though it comes to the same result, doesn't it: you're never too tired or too busy to state your confused points in the first place: you're only too tired or too busy after someone points out the confusions. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 31 19:52:15 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 19:52:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA References: <3DC16204.23524.2131DC8@localhost> Message-ID: <015c01c28140$ecb26700$02f0fea9@j1c1k6> Marcus, what I believe is that there are three hundred schools of poetry: I'm in 299 of them, and everyone else in the remaining one. Actually, I'm the best one in the 300th, too. So the anthology I propose would have nothing but my work in it. I hope you can keep all this straight. Sincerely, Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the PA > Chris: > > > >> > That's the problem with a survey. > > > >> > The problem with the ultimate survey, as you propose, is not > > > >> > *just* that no editorial hand can know all schools, it is that > > > >> > your conception would not allow for he or she to create a path > > > >> > that includes discarding some of the chaff along the way. > > > > > > > > Bob Grumman: > The reader can't do this?<< > > Chris: > > ... But to answer: they COULD, but they usually DON'T and they > > > generally shouldn't HAVE TO. > > Bob G: > > Only the most stupidly passive reader wouldn't automatically.<< > > I have to assume here that the thing even the most stupidly passive > reader would automatically do is discard the chaff as he or she read > through the entirety of all poetry in order to find a path through to > the sorts of poetry that that reader likes -- is that right, Bob? > But Chris's point is that it ought to be the editor who creates that > path, discarding most of the chaff (no one could discard it all, of > course, tastes being what they are) on behalf of the reader precisely > so the reader wouldn't have to read reams and reams of poetry in > order to find what he or she wanted. > > The dispute here seems to be that Chris (and I agree with him) wants > an editorial leadership that does more than merely passively (and > perhaps stupidly) collect a representative sample of every passing > poetic fad and call each one a "school of poetry" just because the > practitioners claim it is. Chris wants, I think, an editorial > judgment that does considerably more than that -- one that says > "These folks claim to be a school of poetry but they're really more > of the same of this school of poetry, or a re-hashing of that school > of poetry, or undistinguished derivatives of another school of > poetry, and ought to be classified not as a separate school but as > followers of the _____ school", and the like. You are apparently > willing, it appears, to grant "school" status to every junior high > schooler who use "2" instead of "to" and calls it mathemaku. > > Chris: > > > Your idea of a classification on schools is based on providing a > > > convenience to the readers so that they don't have to do this, though > > > they could. > > Bob G: > > Ridiculous parallel. It would take years for any reader--assuming he got a > > lot more help from poets and critics than I have--merely to list the schools > > that are out there, much less collect enough poems from each school to make > > his selection from. It would take him a single read of an anthology to find > > the chaff in it and discard it.<< > > Tired of arguing on your own side? Thought Chris's side wasn't doing > too well so you decided to make his point for him? Come on, Bob -- > confused as many of your points often seem to be, are you really so > confused about this that you think that arguing against your own > viewpoint is persuasive? > > Bob G: > > As far as I'm concerned, the rest of what you have to say similarly > > indicates that you have little idea what I want to do. I'm too tired to > > continue to try to explain myself. << > > Well, too tired is a change from too busy -- I'll give you that, > though it comes to the same result, doesn't it: you're never too > tired or too busy to state your confused points in the first place: > you're only too tired or too busy after someone points out the > confusions. > > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu Oct 31 20:38:26 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 20:38:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tupelo Press presents Alicia Ostriker Message-ID: <126.198481ff.2af33512@aol.com> TUPELO PRESS Village Reading Series book signing and dinner following SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 10TH 7:30 PM Alicia Ostriker and John Brehm Pangea Bar & Restaurant, 178 2nd Ave. New York City (btwn 12 & 11th Sts) 212-995-0900 no cover, plenty of bookmarks Presented by: Tupelo Press, P.O. Box 539, Dorset, VT Tel: 802-366-8185, Fax: 802-362-1883 www.tupelopress.org (please forgive multiple postings -- we're still working on that!) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Thu Oct 31 23:49:23 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:49:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021031132054.00ac02e0@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <3DC0EB64.1168.43AB09@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20021031132054.00ac02e0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: Bourdieu does recognize the hierarchies that establish themselves within the seemingly autonomous field of cultural production (ie., prestige vs. cash doesn't mean that prestige doesn't draw cash indirectly...think here of "genius grants" and such). Turner is even more direct in recognizing that communitas and structure are coexistent and dialectical, but that communitas is almost always destined to ossify into structure: "the spontaneity and immediacy of communitas -- as opposed to the jural-political character of structure -- can seldom be maintained for very long. Communitas soon develops a structure, in which free relationships between individuals become converted into norm-governed relationships between social personae." My whole purpose for raising these names (serious though you may take them to be) is not to support either side of this thread (which I believe centers around the debate that serious art cannot also be lucrative), but rather to suggest that Bourdieu has been helpful to me in understanding why the debate rages on in the first place. Sorry if it is unwelcome. ellen smith >Ellen Smith, this is serious stuff! > >It seems that "movements and positionings" of art for art's sake >would have to be considered structuring activities as well, the >establishing of power/prestige relations in an alternate universe. >The way the commune often seemed to produce a Head Honcho or Inside >Group. > >I spoze Bourdieu takes care o'that too. > >Henry > >At 11:57 AM 10/31/02 -0500, you wrote: > >>Marcus, >>I am not trying to have it both ways. Please reread or read Bourdieu. >>His theory has it that the field of literary production is autonomous to >>the field of power, this latter of which is associated with the active, >>"masculine" principle and is intimately tied to property, power, and logos >>(or law). At the end of the 19th century this autonomy of art was >>assured, he observes, with the proliferation of "art for art's sake" >>movements and positionings of the author as other than the bourgeoisie >>(Flaubert and Baudelaire are important examples here). In the process, >>the inverse relationship between commercial success and literary >>prestige/integrity formed the basis of much thought on the role of the >>artist vis a vis the field of power. So, the assumption that has been >>discussed in this thread has a lot to do with the schema drawn up by >>Bourdieu. >> As for Turner, he does not deal directly with poetry in The Ritual >>Process. However, in his ethnographies of the Ndembu peoples of Africa, >>he identifies some features of ritual that, he argues, apply as well to >>structure and community in developed societies. This includes liminality, >>Which has to do lack of property and positionstatus, everything that >>structure (the equivalent of Bourdieu's field of power relations) >>includes. Both Turner and Bourdieu, then, position >>communitas/liminality/poetry as >>passive/contemplative/subordinate/"feminine" in relation to the active >>spheres of structure and power. >> This is all the time I have right now to go into this. The best >>thing would be for you to read these things rather than polemicize what I >>say about them in such a way that you accuse me of saying what I have not. >> Happy Halloween. >>Ellen s. > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Oct 31 22:15:59 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:15:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement References: <3DC16204.23524.2131DC8@localhost> <015c01c28140$ecb26700$02f0fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <012f01c28155$0084c660$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> If anyone's in upstate NY, this Saturday there'll be a pub party for my new novel in verse, Situations, published by Ye Olde Font Shoppe Press, CT. 8 pm, Opus 40, Saugerties, NY. Info on how to get there at www.opus40.org Tad Richards From gmguddi at ilstu.edu Thu Oct 31 23:38:26 2002 From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:38:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021031132054.00ac02e0@postoffice.brown.edu> <3DC0EB64.1168.43AB09@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20021031132054.00ac02e0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021031223303.01854890@mail.ilstu.edu> Ellen, I for one find your posts very useful and your thoughts on Bourdieu are most welcome. Keep it up! You're a breath of reason, of clarity, and of whopping ray of insight. Rock on, Ellen Smith! Gabe At 11:49 PM 10/31/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Bourdieu does recognize the hierarchies that establish themselves within >the seemingly autonomous field of cultural production (ie., prestige vs. >cash doesn't mean that prestige doesn't draw cash indirectly...think here >of "genius grants" and such). Turner is even more direct in recognizing >that communitas and structure are coexistent and dialectical, but that >communitas is almost always destined to ossify into structure: "the >spontaneity and immediacy of communitas -- as opposed to the >jural-political character of structure -- can seldom be maintained for >very long. Communitas soon develops a structure, in which free >relationships between individuals become converted into norm-governed >relationships between social personae." My whole purpose for raising >these names (serious though you may take them to be) is not to support >either side of this thread (which I believe centers around the debate that >serious art cannot also be lucrative), but rather to suggest that Bourdieu >has been helpful to me in understanding why the debate rages on in the >first place. Sorry if it is unwelcome. >ellen smith > > > >>Ellen Smith, this is serious stuff! >> >>It seems that "movements and positionings" of art for art's sake would >>have to be considered structuring activities as well, the establishing of >>power/prestige relations in an alternate universe. The way the commune >>often seemed to produce a Head Honcho or Inside Group. >> >>I spoze Bourdieu takes care o'that too. >> >>Henry >> >>At 11:57 AM 10/31/02 -0500, you wrote: >> >>>Marcus, >>>I am not trying to have it both ways. Please reread or read Bourdieu. >>>His theory has it that the field of literary production is autonomous to >>>the field of power, this latter of which is associated with the active, >>>"masculine" principle and is intimately tied to property, power, and logos >>>(or law). At the end of the 19th century this autonomy of art was >>>assured, he observes, with the proliferation of "art for art's sake" >>>movements and positionings of the author as other than the bourgeoisie >>>(Flaubert and Baudelaire are important examples here). In the process, >>>the inverse relationship between commercial success and literary >>>prestige/integrity formed the basis of much thought on the role of the >>>artist vis a vis the field of power. So, the assumption that has been >>>discussed in this thread has a lot to do with the schema drawn up by >>>Bourdieu. >>> As for Turner, he does not deal directly with poetry in The Ritual >>>Process. However, in his ethnographies of the Ndembu peoples of Africa, >>>he identifies some features of ritual that, he argues, apply as well to >>>structure and community in developed societies. This includes liminality, >>>Which has to do lack of property and positionstatus, everything that >>>structure (the equivalent of Bourdieu's field of power relations) >>>includes. Both Turner and Bourdieu, then, position >>>communitas/liminality/poetry as >>>passive/contemplative/subordinate/"feminine" in relation to the active >>>spheres of structure and power. >>> This is all the time I have right now to go into this. The best >>>thing would be for you to read these things rather than polemicize what I >>>say about them in such a way that you accuse me of saying what I have not. >>> Happy Halloween. >>>Ellen s. >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Thu Oct 31 23:51:10 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:51:10 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 References: <200210280438.g9S4cG1l028661@mx9.mx.voyager.net> <002c01c27e70$6faf6dc0$c819fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <008501c28162$4ec8b630$64864cca@JROSS2> Which is to assume that most of the poems in Collins' selection are "good" to begin with ... and whose standard of "good" would this be in the end? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 > Just to beat my near-silent drum once again to say that this collection of > poems is just the kind of thing that makes the need of a widely-publicized > list of poetry schools so necessary. Anyone who complains about Collins's > selections by asking why so-and-so's poems were left off will just be told > that Collins only could make so many selections. > Which is reasonable. But someone asking why whole schools of poetry were > ignored may get people understanding how unfair the list is. And it is even > a "constructive" question inasmuch as it doesn't imply that the poems in the > collection are inferior to ones not in it, only that they don't represent > anywhere near the full range of good American poems. > > --Bob G. > > > > > But----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Graham" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 11:39 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180 > > > Last time I looked, Billy Collins had not completed his list of poems for > his Poetry 180 project. Now he has. > > http://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/ > > In case you're curious, as I was, what poems will be read in U.S. high > schools, the full list follows--I'm not quite sure what this list indicates, > but it's an interesting little anthology. A number of poems and poets new > to me, but surprisingly few, given the project. > > It *is* clear that Collins *really* likes the poems of Thomas Lux, who has 7 > of the 180. I noticed a number of others with 3 or 4 entries. > > All the poems are readable online, by the way, at the above address. > > Poetry 180 > List of Poems and Authors > > 1 Introduction to Poetry Billy Collins > 2 Sidekicks Ronald Koertge > 3 The Summer I Was Sixteen Geraldine Connolly > 4 The Blue Bowl Jane Kenyon > 5 Lines Martha Collins > 6 Daybreak Galway Kinnell > 7 Naming the Stars Joyce Sutphen > 8 Numbers Mary Cornish > 9 Autobiographia G.E. Patterson > 10 I'm A Fool To Love You Cornelius Eady > 11 Passer-by, these are words... Yves Bonnefoy > 12 The Bruise of This Mark Wunderlich > 13 At the Other End of the Telescope George Bradley > 14 Over and Over Tune Ioanna Carlsen > 15 praise song Lucille Clifton > 16 The Man into Whose Yard You Should Not Hit Your Ball Thomas Lux > 17 An Infinite Number of Monkeys Ronald Koertge > 18 The Farewell Edward Field > 19 The Partial Explanation Charles Simic > 20 Blackberry Eating Galway Kinnell > 21 Henry Clay's Mouth Thomas Lux > 22 Poem for Adlai Stevenson and Yellow Jackets David Young > 23 Tour Carol Snow > 24 After Us Connie Wanek > 25 Domestic Work, 1937 Natasha Trethewey > 26 Before She Died Karen Chase > 27 Poetry Don Patterson > 28 The Fathers Elizabeth Holmes > 29 Advice from the Experts Bill Knott > 30 One Morning Eamon Grennan > 31 Unlike, for Example, the Sound of a Riptooth Saw Thomas Lux > 32 Dearborn North Apartments Lola Haskins > 33 The Meadow Kate Knapp Johnson > 34 Gouge, Adze, Rasp, Hammer Chris Forhan > 35 Imagining Defeat David Berman > 36 The Printer's Error Aaron Fogel > 37 She Didn't Mean to Do It Daisy Fried > 38 Cartoon Physics, part 1 Nick Flynn > 39 Snow David Berman > 40 Driving to Town Late to Mail a Letter Robert Bly > 41 In the Well Andrew Hudgins > 42 St. Francis and the Sow Galway Kinnell > 43 A Library of Skulls Thomas Lux > 44 Swan Song Gerald Stern > 45 The Old Liberators Robert Hedin > 46 Grammar Tony Hoagland > 47 Fault Ron Koertge > 48 Thanks For Remembering Us Dana Gioia > 49 The Road That Runs Beside the River Thomas Lux > 50 Otherwise Jane Kenyon > 51 No Return William Matthews > 52 Womanhood Catherine Anderson > 53 Selecting a Reader Ted Kooser > 54 Song Eamon Grennan > 55 Biscuit Jane Kenyon > 56 The Panic Bird Robert Phillips > 57 Marine Snow at Mid-Depths and Down Thomas Lux > 58 Hamlet Off-Stage: Laertes Cool D.C. Berry > 59 Lesson Forrest Hamer > 60 Football Louis Jenkins > 61 Sister Cat Frances Mayes > 62 The Bagel David Ignatow > 63 A Little Tooth Thomas Lux > 64 For My Daughter David Ignatow > 65 Song Beside a Sippy Cup Jenny Factor > 66 The Moon Robert Bly > 67 Watching the Mayan Women Luisa Villani > 68 Bringing My Son to the Police Station to be Fingerprinted > Shoshauna Shy > 69 The Space Heater Sharon Olds > 70 Sentimental Moment or Why Did the Baguette Cross the Road? Robert > Hershon > 71 Smoking Elton Glaser > 72 Gratitude to Old Teachers Robert Bly > 73 You Mustn't Show Weakness Yehuda Amichai > 74 Near the Wall of a House Yehuda Amichai > 75 To a Daughter Leaving Home Linda Pastan > 76 June 11 David Lehman > 77 A Birthday Candle Donald Justice > 78 Doing Without David Ray > 79 My Life Joe Wenderoth > 80 Nuclear Winter Edward Nobles > 81 After Years Ted Kooser > 82 Small Comfort Katha Pollitt > 83 In January Ted Kooser > 84 Goalie Todd R. Nelson > 85 Rotary Christina Pugh > 86 Goodbye to the Old Life Wesley McNair > 87 Alley Cat Love Song Dana Gioia > 88 The Exchange Ron Rash > 89 Dutch Kay Ryan > 90 A New Poet Linda Pastan > 91 The Streetsweeper Ronald Koertge > 92 Birth Day Elise Paschen > 93 Relearning Winter Mark Svenvold > 94 My Daughters in New York James Reiss > 95 From On Being Fired Again Erin Belieu > 96 On Not Flying to Hawaii Alison Luterman > 97 Invisible Work Alison Luterman > 98 My Father's Hats Mark Irwin > 99 Of Politics & Art Norman Dubie > 100 Loud Music Stephen Dobyn > 101 Some Clouds Steve Kowit > 102 A Wreath to the Fish Nancy Willard > 103 ballplayer Evie Shockley > 104 The Other World Robert Wrigley > 105 A Birthday Poem Ted Kooser > 106 The Grammar Lesson Steve Kowit > 107 Blind Charles Webb > 108 Halloween Mac Hammond > 109 Fast Break Edward Hirsch > 110 On a Cape May Warbler Who Flew Against My Window Eamon Grennan > 111 The Kitchen Shears Speak Christianne Balk > 112 Saturday At The Canal Gary Soto > 113 Lift Your Right Arm Peter Cherches > 114 Machines Michael Donaghy > 115 The Death of Santa Claus Charles Webb > 116 Cat Scat Eamon Grennan > 117 Ladies and Gentlemen in Outer Space Ron Padgett > 118 Notice Steve Kowit > 119 Thanksgiving Mac Hammond > 120 The Swan at Edgewater Park Ruth L. Schwartz > 121 The Blizzard Phillis Levin > 122 Where Is She? Peter Cherches > 123 Coffee in the Afternoon Alberto R?os > 124 Morning Mary Oliver > 125 Animals Miller Williams > 126 God Says Yes To Me Kaylin Haught > 127 The Perfect Heart Shara McCallum > 128 The Student Theme Ronald Wallace > 129 The Birthday Elizabeth Seydel Morgan > 130 Witness Martha Collins > 131 Not Swans Susan Ludvigson > 132 I Wish In The City Of Your Heart Robley Wilson > 133 The Summer Day Mary Oliver > 134 One Day A Woman Miller Williams > 135 Walking to Oak-Head Pond, and Thinking of the Ponds I Will Visit in > the Next Days and Weeks Mary Oliver > 136 Who Burns for the Perfection of Paper Martin Espada > 137 Wan Chu's Wife In Bed Richard Jones > 138 This Moment Eavan Boland > 139 How Many Times Marie Howe > 140 The Dead Susan Mitchell > 141 The End and the Beginning Wislawa Szymborska > 142 Locals James Lasdun > 143 Social Security Terence Winch > 144 Smell and Envy Douglas Goetsch > 145 The Yawn Paul Blackburn > 146 Blue Willow Jody Gladding > 147 Tuesday 9:00 AM Denver Butson > 148 Ordinance On Arrival Naomi Lazard > 149 Her Head Joan Murray > 150 96 Vandam Gerald Stern > 151 My Moral Life Mark Halliday > 152 It Took All My Energy Tony Wallace > 153 Once upon a Time There Was a Man Mac Hammond > 154 Forgiving Buckner John Hodgen > 155 Legs Mark Halliday > 156 Dandelion Julie Lechevsky > 157 Heat Michael Chitwood > 158 Forgotten Planet Doug Dorph > 159 Loyal William Matthews > 160 Dutch Boy Doug Dorph > 161 Key To The Highway Mark Halliday > 162 Herd Of Buffalo Crossing The Missouri On Ice William Matthews > 163 Mentor Timothy Murphy > 164 Unconditional Day Julie Lechevsky > 165 The Rider Naomi Shihab Nye > 166 Kyrie Tomas Transtr?mer > 167 The Last Wolf Mary Tallmountain > 168 Gee, You?re So Beautiful That It?s Starting to Rain Richard > Brautigan > 169 Schoolboys with Dog, Winter William Matthews > 170 Summer in a Small Town Linda Gregg > 171 Entrance Dana Gioia > 172 How to Listen Major Jackson > 173 Immortality Lisel Mueller > 174 Our Other Sister Jeffrey Harrison > 175 Gretel Andrea Hollander Budy > 176 How to Change a Frog Into a Prince Anna Denise > 177 Eagle Plain Robert Francis > 178 End of April Phillis Levin > 179 Bike Ride with Older Boys Laura Kasischke > 180 Break Dorianne Laux > The Library of Congress Washington, D.C. poetry180 at loc.gov > (10/9/2002) > > ======================================== > David Graham > Professor of English, Ripon College > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > > "We're writing the book on quality: personal, > undergraduate education." > Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu > ======================================= > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Oct 29 22:46:10 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:46:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Canadian Poetry Message-ID: <20021030034610.4B7903C45@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Mark Baker Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Canadian Poetry Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:13:00 -0800 Size: 3866 URL: From DICK at yktvmv.pok.IBM.COM Wed Oct 30 09:55:56 2002 From: DICK at yktvmv.pok.IBM.COM (DICK at yktvmv.pok.IBM.COM) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 02 09:55:56 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] canadian poets Message-ID: <200210301457.g9UEv9V45868@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com> > From Richard Service to today's top poets such as Robert Hilles and > Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to writing. Isn't it Robert Service?? Richard From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Oct 30 10:56:24 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:56:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry Message-ID: <20021030155625.6BF003F87@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "David Graham" Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:35:16 -0600 Size: 2316 URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Oct 30 11:03:57 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:03:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry Message-ID: <20021030160357.DF7113BAB@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Oct 30 11:17:09 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:17:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA Message-ID: <20021030161710.329E83B46@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: