From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 00:26:54 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:26:54 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA
References: <3DBD143A.31103.95206F@localhost><003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uu1j6dy2e.fsf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <012d01c28167$4c895b40$64864cca@JROSS2>

Thanks for picking that sweeping statement of Bob's up, Chris.  So he's the
one who gets to determine what is serious on THAT supercilious basis?  So
right of you question this.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris L" <chris at chrislott.org>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 5:59 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA


> "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> writes:
>
> > If it makes money during the artist's lifetime for what it is as
> > poetry, it proves it was not serious art in the first place.
>
> On the absolute scale, or in every instance? If your poem nets you $10
> and some author's copies, then this poem is not serious art? Or are
> only those non-serious enough to make a living wage exempt from
> seriousness?
>
> c
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 00:29:09 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:29:09 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180
References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost><006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uy98idy4t.fsf@hotmail.com> <008701c27ecf$06b747c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <013501c28167$9cde3ca0$64864cca@JROSS2>

If that was all you meant to say, which was patently obvious from what
everyone else has had to say re Collins and his list, I wonder why you
bothered to do so, then get your knickers in a twist when Chris questioned
you?

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180


> > > I strongly suspect he has no language poems, for
> > > instance, are in his collection,
> >
> > That would make sense. He is picking a list of the best poems, not a
> > representative of "every me-too school of 'poetry' no matter how
> > paltry and shallow the output."
>
> That's your opinion.  I am only stating that he is NOT showing the range
of
> current American poetry.  I do commend him, though, for choosing (I
believe)
> the work of living poets over the already available work of dead poets.
>
> > > or visual poets.
> >
> > An explicit part of his goal is to provide a poem for every day that
> > can, for example, be read over the PA system in a school. This makes
> > some genres relatively unfit for inclusion on this basis alone.
>
> His narrow choice of a goal is one reason that he is guilty of doing what
I
> say he did: fail to indicate the width of contemporary American poetry.
I'm
> not even saying he SHOULD have done that, just that he failed to.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 00:32:02 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:32:02 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Poetry 180
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F88@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <013d01c28168$05aab290$64864cca@JROSS2>

As to listening to things over the PA, the sound quality was usually so
lousy and noise in the classroom where students were winding up for the day
ahead was so overwhelming, poetry wouldn't even make a pip on anyone's
radar.  AND if it's the principal or secretary reading the selection, how
much more torture could one take?

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 6:29 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:Poetry 180


> I think Poetry 180 is a quixotic notion at best.  I'll let others discuss,
> if they wish, what poems Collins *should* have chosen to appeal to that
age
> group.  Personally, I think he made a mistake including so little rhyme.
In
> my experience, students love rhyme.
>
> But in a larger sense, it's hard to imagine turning high school kids on to
> poetry by reading a poem over the P.A.  Did *you* ever listen closely to
> official announcements in high school?
>
> I do like the idea of reading poems aloud sometimes without bringing out a
> lot of critical artillery.  But probably that should happen in a class or
> other gathering, not at the same time you're announcing the lunch menu and
> cancellation of track practice.
>
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>      Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>      My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> "We're writing the book on quality:  personal,
> undergraduate education."
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 01:24:33 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:24:33 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA
References: <3DBD143A.31103.95206F@localhost><003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uu1j6dy2e.fsf@hotmail.com><008101c27ece$8911c0c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uof9ecddp.fsf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <017b01c2816f$5b040be0$64864cca@JROSS2>

Ah yes -- fairness ... life isn't. Art isn't.  Publication certainly isn't.
And making money from poetry ... well, no fairness in that at all.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris L" <chris at chrislott.org>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA


> "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> writes:
>
> > Remember, I'm using the term "serious" polemically. As for "make
> > money," I mean what I think most people do by it: "make big bucks." (A
> > poem that nets you $10, by the way, probably did not make money by any
> > standard since it probably cost more in paper, ink, postage, light
> > bulbs, food to keep the worker working on it, etc., than $10.)
>
> Well, even a serious artist can get lucky and score a glossy
> publication that pays for itself in terms of an hourly wage. But
> considering that making money sometimes depends so little on the
> artist and so much on circumstance, big bucks seems like an inaccurate
> yardstick. A good, serious poet can have a poem of theirs adapted by a
> pop-star and suddenly make some big bucks (for at least a book or
> two), and it has basically nothing to do with their effort, same with
> a serious novel that gets made into (an often non-serious) movie.
> Doesn't seem fair to the folks who are just doing their writing job.
>
> c
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 01:32:35 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:32:35 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180
References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost> <006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <005301c27ed9$6dc49d00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <3DBDC936.16A6442A@earthlink.net> <00f201c27edb$af564780$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <018501c28170$7936a5e0$64864cca@JROSS2>

Bob wrote:
 Right, and I do try to emphasize my statement is not necessarily an
objection but a description.  However, I think you'd hook more kids on
poetry by giving them more kinds of poetry to get hooked on.  Some kids who
can't stand traditional poetry might like visual poetry or even certain
language poems--and even gain an appreciation of traditional poetry as a
result!  (Because that's where all the new poetries are coming from.)


Zan writes:
Again, more sweeping generalisations.  Most high school students I know are
as afraid of and ill-informed about poetry as their English teachers.
(Personally, have been on both sides of the fence.)  And I certainly don't
agree on two points in the above statement: 1) that contemporary sorts of
poetry will lead them back to more traditional schools of poetry, and 2)
that all 'new' poetries come from (evolve from?) traditional poetry.  ...
All of which begs the question of what could be considered 'traditional'?
Are we speaking of all non-Modernist work, or anything past Tennyson?



From ccooley at overdomain.com  Fri Nov  1 01:46:52 2002
From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:46:52 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: the PA
In-Reply-To: <20021101045402.7E0CD10371@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKAEBJCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

Marcus & Bob,
Although you seem to disagree on just what editorial judgement should be
rendered and on what constitutes a school, you agree (in the hypothetical
case below) on placing poets in schools.  But this approach is prescriptive
and deductive (not to mention authoritarian), and so is not interesting to
me.  I would be much more interested in an approach that was descriptive and
inductive, proceeding from formal features of particular poems and
classifying according to these features.  This sort of morphological
classification seems to me much more rigorous AND friendly--since it is
based on observed differences of actual poems--than one in which an
arbitrary set of features from a particular era are preserved (and certain
poets pigeon-holed) in a temporary and arbitrary school.
-Cc

> The dispute here seems to be that Chris (and I agree with him) wants
> an editorial leadership that does more than merely passively (and
> perhaps stupidly) collect a representative sample of every passing
> poetic fad and call each one a "school of poetry" just because the
> practitioners claim it is.  Chris wants, I think, an editorial
> judgment that does considerably more than that -- one that says
> "These folks claim to be a school of poetry but they're really more
> of the same of this school of poetry, or a re-hashing of that school
> of poetry, or undistinguished derivatives of another school of
> poetry, and ought to be classified not as a separate school but as
> followers of the _____ school", and the like.  You are apparently
> willing, it appears, to grant "school" status to every junior high
> schooler who use "2" instead of "to" and calls it mathemaku.
>
> Chris:
> > > Your idea of a classification on schools is based on providing a
> > > convenience to the readers so that they don't have to do this, though
> > > they could.
>
> Bob G:
> > Ridiculous parallel.  It would take years for any
> reader--assuming he got a
> > lot more help from poets and critics than I have--merely to
> list the schools
> > that are out there, much less collect enough poems from each
> school to make
> > his selection from.




From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 01:52:24 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:52:24 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Russell Edson
References: <200210290118.g9T1IQie023665@mx3.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <021801c28173$3e23a220$64864cca@JROSS2>

Well, Russell Edson certainly gave me something to think about ... I got my
paws on some and tried them with my own teenagers.  Whaddaya know -- they
liked him, too.  Thanks for that, David.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 9:19 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry 180


> >That's pretty much my take on it.  Except:  Why is everyone assuming the
> >poems are to be read over the PA system?  Maybe there's an English
> >teacher who would read them aloud in class.
>
> Hope you're right, Jim.  Here's what it says on Billy's Poetry 180 site,
> though:
>
> "Poetry 180 is designed to make it easy for students to hear or read a
poem
> each day of the 180 days of  the school year. I have selected the poems
you
> will find here with high school students in mind. They are intended to be
> listened to, and I suggest that all members of the school community be
> included as readers. A great time for the readings would be following the
> end of daily announcements over the public address system."
>
> I'm pretty long in the tooth, but I do remember high school.  Reading
> anything over the PA is a sure way to kill all interest.  I envision
> stammering, half-hearted recitations by vice principals and student
council
> presidents, myself.
>
> But even if the poems were read well by a sympathetic teacher in class, I
> think it's an uphill road, for a number of the reasons folks have already
> stated.  I'm not bothered by the fact that the poems are unrepresentative
of
> the fullness of American poetry so much as I suspect that Collins's taste
> might not converge too well with high school interests.
>
> I did a 10th grade class a few years back, and was struck by how much
> students liked rhyming poetry--Poe and Larkin being great hits (well, yes,
I
> *did* read "They fuck you up, your mum and dad," among others, and I
> understand why Billy C. didn't include *that* one. . . .)
>
> For what it's worth, the one poet I've consistently had best success with,
> in terms of students going to the library later and seeking out his books,
> is (can you guess?) Russell Edson.  I now do a Russell Edson Day in every
> poetry class I teach.
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 01:56:07 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:56:07 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA
References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <ufzuqccrn.fsf@hotmail.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <022001c28173$c5105800$64864cca@JROSS2>

John Kinsella often writes a "challenging" poem on one page and a more
readily accessible one on the same topic/theme on the facing page.  Critics
have often said this makes his work "uneven," but my students vehemently
disagree -- they have come to the conclusion that each type of poem unlocks
and deepens the other.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the PA


>
> > I'm struck more my how little the poems appear to be chosen on the
> > basis of content at all. I don't know how that would work anyway
> > (since this gets back to Jim's question about literacy and such),
> > since it leads to a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of
> > position. If you choose poems that are tied to actual high school
> > experience, the "don't dumb it down" crowd will throw rocks. If you
> > choose poems like those that moved *me* in high school, then the "you
> > don't understand kids" will pelt you with pebbles.
>
> Hey, I got a great idea!  Why not BOTH kinds of poems?  Plus a few
> adventurous poems.
>
> Here's a less sarcastic suggestion: find some poet, if it's possible, who
> has written both a sure-fire crowd-pleaser AND a non-mainstream poem, and
> present them one after the other, suggesting at the end that maybe the
easy
> poem indicated that the poet wasn't purposely baffling people with the
> other.  Like showing some of Picasso's representational paintings and then
> his more interesting ones forces curable Philistines to respect the latter
> more.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 01:58:11 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:58:11 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA
References: <3DBD143A.31103.95206F@localhost><003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uu1j6dy2e.fsf@hotmail.com><008101c27ece$8911c0c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uof9ecddp.fsf@hotmail.com> <014401c27efa$0f32b3a0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <022801c28174$0e5276b0$64864cca@JROSS2>

Hmmm -- did I miss the point here, Bob, or were you comparing apples and
lemons?

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA


> > "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> writes:
> >
> > > Remember, I'm using the term "serious" polemically. As for "make
> > > money," I mean what I think most people do by it: "make big bucks." (A
> > > poem that nets you $10, by the way, probably did not make money by any
> > > standard since it probably cost more in paper, ink, postage, light
> > > bulbs, food to keep the worker working on it, etc., than $10.)
> >
> > Well, even a serious artist can get lucky and score a glossy
> > publication that pays for itself in terms of an hourly wage. But
> > considering that making money sometimes depends so little on the
> > artist and so much on circumstance, big bucks seems like an inaccurate
> > yardstick. A good, serious poet can have a poem of theirs adapted by a
> > pop-star and suddenly make some big bucks (for at least a book or
> > two), and it has basically nothing to do with their effort, same with
> > a serious novel that gets made into (an often non-serious) movie.
> > Doesn't seem fair to the folks who are just doing their writing job.
> >
> > c
>
> Well, there are exceptions to anything--but I also spoke of making money
> from the artwork as an artwork.  That would also imply making money from
it
> as itself rather than an adaptation.  For instance, Hilary could leave
Bill
> for me, and my poetry would make a bundle as a result, but not as art,
only
> as celebricrap.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 02:09:20 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:09:20 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA
References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <ufzuqccrn.fsf@hotmail.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <024001c28175$9be70300$64864cca@JROSS2>

Is there a morality code for Poet Laureates?  Could rabid pig-headedness
count, or should we be considering something to do with sheep?

I believe Collins knew/believed everyone would be watching (he loves the
limelight), and did the best he could.  That said, there were some poor
choices made, for sure, but the entire face of it will probably please most
high school principals and English teachers.  Re the students, I shouldn't
think the vast majority would give a fig.

Anyway, it's unfair of us to judge from our 'lofty' positions, I reckon.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "theoldmole" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the PA


> The problem is -- Billy didn't have any good ideas when he was named
> Laureate, probably because he had no idea anyone was actually watching and
> taking it seriously, so he came up with this lame one, and now he's stuck
> with it.
>
> So...rather than keep beating this dead horse...let's suppose that by some
> bizarre quirk of fate, each ot us is first runner-up (none of us is likely
> to be Mr./Ms. Congeniality), and some nude pictures of Billy have just
been
> discovered, and he has to resign as Laureate, and we have to take over the
> job. What's our Big Laureate Project?
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 10:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the PA
>
>
> >
> > > I'm struck more my how little the poems appear to be chosen on the
> > > basis of content at all. I don't know how that would work anyway
> > > (since this gets back to Jim's question about literacy and such),
> > > since it leads to a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of
> > > position. If you choose poems that are tied to actual high school
> > > experience, the "don't dumb it down" crowd will throw rocks. If you
> > > choose poems like those that moved *me* in high school, then the "you
> > > don't understand kids" will pelt you with pebbles.
> >
> > Hey, I got a great idea!  Why not BOTH kinds of poems?  Plus a few
> > adventurous poems.
> >
> > Here's a less sarcastic suggestion: find some poet, if it's possible,
who
> > has written both a sure-fire crowd-pleaser AND a non-mainstream poem,
and
> > present them one after the other, suggesting at the end that maybe the
> easy
> > poem indicated that the poet wasn't purposely baffling people with the
> > other.  Like showing some of Picasso's representational paintings and
then
> > his more interesting ones forces curable Philistines to respect the
latter
> > more.
> >
> > --Bob G.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 02:10:43 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:10:43 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA
References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <ufzuqccrn.fsf@hotmail.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <024801c28175$cca3aa70$64864cca@JROSS2>

Jeez, Bob -- you've kicked that horse so often now the guts are spilling
out.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the PA


> From: "theoldmole":
>
> > . . . rather than keep beating this dead horse...let's suppose that by
> some
> > bizarre quirk of fate, each ot us is first runner-up (none of us is
likely
> > to be Mr./Ms. Congeniality), and some nude pictures of Billy have just
> been
> > discovered, and he has to resign as Laureate, and we have to take over
the
> > job. What's our Big Laureate Project?
>
> I got a great one: ask people to send us the names of all the poetry
schools
> they know with, if possible, a definition of the poetry of each and
> specimens of it.!  I'd try to find out, too, who is believed to know the
> most about each school.
>
> I'd also try to get an anthology put together that contained work by every
> school of poetry in the US.   It would have a chapter for each school
edited
> by some authority on, and perhaps participant in, that school whom I would
> hope to find in the data I'd gotten for my list of schools of poetry.
>
> I would aim ultimately for an internet website where people could see the
> anthology, and go from any poem in it they liked to a definition of the
> school it was from, where to find more poems of its school or related
> schools, etc.  I think a program that let someone read a poem, then click
on
> a box that said "If you enjoyed this poem, you will probably enjoy:"  Etc.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 02:33:04 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:33:04 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA
References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <ufzuqccrn.fsf@hotmail.com><013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6><006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <upttt8asq.fsf@chrislott.org>
Message-ID: <029201c28178$ec5de3f0$64864cca@JROSS2>

I read the encyclopaedia for information ... and often out of interest, so
perhaps applying a criteria of boredom wouldn't work for me re Bob's
project.  It might be interesting, but I think I might just dip into it
occasionally ... VERY occasionally.  And, Chris, there would be an editorial
hand guiding Bob's project -- his.

However, I can't find enough reasons to consider what Bob is proposing as
anything more than a research tool, certainly not an anthology.

But, for excitement, stimulation, I'd definitely depend on my own resources
as I encountered texts/art/experience.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Lott" <chris at chrislott.org>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the PA


> "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> writes:
>
> > I'd also try to get an anthology put together that contained work by
> > every school of poetry in the US. It would have a chapter for each
> > school edited by some authority on, and perhaps participant in, that
> > school whom I would hope to find in the data I'd gotten for my list of
> > schools of poetry.
>
> Sounds like a recipe for incredible boredom. I want an anthology to
> show an editorial hand, to guide me. I would rather a collection tried
> to do this and failed than suffer through some ledger book trying to
> account for every conceivable school and style. But then, I like to
> read (and get excited by( novels, poetry, and short stories rather
> than the encyclopedia too.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 02:37:25 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:37:25 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Canadian Poetry
References: <ac.2ffb33ce.2af01e46@cs.com>
Message-ID: <02b601c28179$8814b6c0$64864cca@JROSS2>

I hope that was a joke, Mr. Gwynn, or you don't get out enough, for sure!!

Zan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 1:24 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Canadian Poetry


  In a message dated 10/29/2002 10:53:16 AM Central Standard Time, ddstokes at telusplanet.net writes: 



    From Richard Service to today's top poets such as Robert Hilles and 
    Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to writing. 


  Say who? 
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From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 02:38:11 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:38:11 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Canadian Poetry
References: <000201c27f71$f19d11f0$d41ab8a1@DFXNZ911>
Message-ID: <02d401c2817a$098fd6d0$64864cca@JROSS2>

Thanks for that, Diana ...

Zan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: diana 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 1:38 AM
  Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Canadian Poetry


  http://www.geocities.com/canadian_sf/pages/authors/atwood.htm

  http://www.writersunion.ca/h/hilles.htm

  http://www.mochinet.com/poets/yukon.html

   

   



  Say who?

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From chris at chrislott.org  Fri Nov  1 02:46:56 2002
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 02:46:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA
In-Reply-To: <017b01c2816f$5b040be0$64864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211010245010.10343-100000@mercury.sabren.com>

On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, ganesha wrote:

> Ah yes -- fairness ... life isn't. Art isn't.  Publication certainly isn't.
> And making money from poetry ... well, no fairness in that at all.

True enough. But *I* was talking about the way we treat those who make 
money-- and that is something we can control and an area in which we 
can be fair by not immediately assuming the worst about someone who 
makes a buck. 

Throwing one's hands in the air and saing "life ain't fair" is my 
grandpa's cop-out. I understand it, but I don't *always* have to 
contribute to it.

c



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov  1 05:53:09 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 05:53:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA
References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <ufzuqccrn.fsf@hotmail.com><013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6><006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <upttt8asq.fsf@chrislott.org> <029201c28178$ec5de3f0$64864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <002801c28194$ddfbba00$a0abfea9@j1c1k6>

> I read the encyclopaedia for information ... and often out of interest, so
> perhaps applying a criteria of boredom wouldn't work for me re Bob's
> project.  It might be interesting, but I think I might just dip into it
> occasionally ... VERY occasionally.  And, Chris, there would be an
editorial
> hand guiding Bob's project -- his.
>
> However, I can't find enough reasons to consider what Bob is proposing as
> anything more than a research tool, certainly not an anthology.
>
> But, for excitement, stimulation, I'd definitely depend on my own
resources
> as I encountered texts/art/experience.
>
> Zan

I just thought of a way that might make my project work for at least some of
you who aren't excited by it: instead of making a single anthology with one
chapter for each (viable) school of poetry, simply
have a series of anthologies, one volume for each school.  Those who wanted
to explore the full length and width of their field could buy all the
volumes; those not interested in that, could buy those individual volumes
devoted to schools of poetry they were interested in.  Each volume would
have the editorial hand Chris wants, and the series as a whole would have my
editorial hand.

--Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov  1 05:55:00 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 05:55:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA
References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <ufzuqccrn.fsf@hotmail.com> <013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <024801c28175$cca3aa70$64864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <003001c28195$20607de0$a0abfea9@j1c1k6>

> Jeez, Bob -- you've kicked that horse so often now the guts are spilling
> out.
>
> Zan

True, but with no results, so I'll keep trying in the hope of finally
catching the interest of someone who can help with the project.

--Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov  1 05:56:35 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 05:56:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA
References: <3DBD143A.31103.95206F@localhost><003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uu1j6dy2e.fsf@hotmail.com><008101c27ece$8911c0c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uof9ecddp.fsf@hotmail.com> <014401c27efa$0f32b3a0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <022801c28174$0e5276b0$64864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <003801c28195$592e1e20$a0abfea9@j1c1k6>

> Hmmm -- did I miss the point here, Bob, or were you comparing apples and
> lemons?
>
> Zan

You got me.  Chris and Marcus got me so far from what I originally said, I
finally lost track where I was.

--Bob G.


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 11:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA
>
>
> > > "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> writes:
> > >
> > > > Remember, I'm using the term "serious" polemically. As for "make
> > > > money," I mean what I think most people do by it: "make big bucks."
(A
> > > > poem that nets you $10, by the way, probably did not make money by
any
> > > > standard since it probably cost more in paper, ink, postage, light
> > > > bulbs, food to keep the worker working on it, etc., than $10.)
> > >
> > > Well, even a serious artist can get lucky and score a glossy
> > > publication that pays for itself in terms of an hourly wage. But
> > > considering that making money sometimes depends so little on the
> > > artist and so much on circumstance, big bucks seems like an inaccurate
> > > yardstick. A good, serious poet can have a poem of theirs adapted by a
> > > pop-star and suddenly make some big bucks (for at least a book or
> > > two), and it has basically nothing to do with their effort, same with
> > > a serious novel that gets made into (an often non-serious) movie.
> > > Doesn't seem fair to the folks who are just doing their writing job.
> > >
> > > c
> >
> > Well, there are exceptions to anything--but I also spoke of making money
> > from the artwork as an artwork.  That would also imply making money from
> it
> > as itself rather than an adaptation.  For instance, Hilary could leave
> Bill
> > for me, and my poetry would make a bundle as a result, but not as art,
> only
> > as celebricrap.
> >
> > --Bob G.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 05:04:50 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:04:50 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211010245010.10343-100000@mercury.sabren.com>
Message-ID: <013301c28195$6caad380$71864cca@JROSS2>

Don't want to be on your bad side, Chris, 'cause I generally agree with what
you have to say.  BUT if I seemed to misunderstand you in the way you
indicated below (which I did -- I heartily concur with the point laid out
therein), you seem to have misunderstood me ... and kicked in an insult to
boot!

Generally when people go on about things being "fair" or "unfair" they're
whining about same.  I'm afraid I was responding to that particular
construct and perhaps not to your actual intention.  I'm much in favour of
seeing what actually IS, then seeing what can be done to change an
unacceptable situation and doing it.  If that was your intention, again --
please pardon me: I misunderstood.

BUT I don't believe calling my words a "cop-out" was warranted, since I do
not sit on the proverbial whinging and not doing ... like your grandpa.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Lott" <chris at chrislott.org>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA


> On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, ganesha wrote:
>
> > Ah yes -- fairness ... life isn't. Art isn't.  Publication certainly
isn't.
> > And making money from poetry ... well, no fairness in that at all.
>
> True enough. But *I* was talking about the way we treat those who make
> money-- and that is something we can control and an area in which we
> can be fair by not immediately assuming the worst about someone who
> makes a buck.
>
> Throwing one's hands in the air and saing "life ain't fair" is my
> grandpa's cop-out. I understand it, but I don't *always* have to
> contribute to it.
>
> c
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 05:20:41 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:20:41 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA
References: <3DBE53A2.7386.39BE26@localhost> <000a01c27f97$0e2fd440$eafafea9@j1c1k6> <012a01c2801b$c524f0c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <004901c2804c$3e0ceee0$23cbfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <013401c28195$6e552820$71864cca@JROSS2>

Bob, I find your comments puzzling since you have asserted again and again,
along with Jeff, that one should write for an audience, and not just to
please one's self ...

Zan

> Do you think these musicians composed what they thought would make money
or
> aimed for music that pleased them, and were lucky enough, eventually, to
> pick up enough of an audience to make a living or more?
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 05:31:51 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:31:51 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Chronicle article: 10 Years After, Poetry Still Matters
References: <36D68734-EC6C-11D6-AB20-000393C29586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <013501c28195$6ff347c0$71864cca@JROSS2>

Ummm -- naivet??  How about elitism ... once more with feeling.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Chronicle article: 10 Years After, Poetry
Still Matters


> Did anybody else think this was odd?
>
> On Thursday, October 24, 2002, at 09:50  AM, Thom424 at aol.com posted an
> article from the Chronicle of Higher Education by John Palattella which
> said, among other things:
>
> >  Since when, as Gioia suggests, has a poet's primary obligation
> >   been to serve the interests of consumers? I don't mean to
> >   imply that poets don't desire an audience. But isn't the first
> >   duty of all poets not to readers but to language, their own as
> >   well as their culture's? And would it be so terrible if the
> >   only readers of a poet's work at any one time were other
> >   poets, especially if those readers grasped, appreciated, and
> >   promoted the work?
> >
>
> I wonder to whom the appreciative poet-readers would promote those
> works? /Consumers?/ But even stranger than a writer showing such
> contempt for readers is the idea of duty to language. What the hell
> does that look like?
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 05:41:06 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:41:06 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA
References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <ufzuqccrn.fsf@hotmail.com><013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6><006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <upttt8asq.fsf@chrislott.org><005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> <uu1j4r5bt.fsf@chrislott.org><006501c28000$8be214c0$47b9fea9@j1c1k6> <uy98f3lf1.fsf@chrislott.org><008d01c2804e$6e540640$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> <uk7jz1pq1.fsf@chrislott.org><013901c2806d$1124a500$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> <ufzunz3ea.fsf@chrislott.org> <001f01c280d4$aa51b9e0$d66afea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <013601c28195$713a46b0$71864cca@JROSS2>

But you are still missing the point, Bob -- this is a reference book NOT an
anthology.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the PA


> >  I find the merely academic
>
> my anthology would not be "merely academic."
>
> > discussion to be a waste of time (unless one is pursuing tenure). But
> > you still don't have to sulk...
>
> Ah, but before (and I hate Marcussing, but sometimes you have to), you
> indicated the anthology would be a good project--which suggests to my you
> DON'T think it'd be a waste of time.
>
> > >>That is why I prefer an editorial hand to guide me as I am learning
> > >> something new.
> > >
> > > That editorial hand could help you more, it seems to me, if it could
> > > direct you to a book like my proposed anthology and tell you to
> > > check out the chapter on the Highway 903 school of poetry. And that
> > > editorial hand would be more likely to know enough to direct you to
> > > poetry you'd like if he knew more than a limited amount about what's
> > > out there, as he would if he could consult said book. This is
> > > especially pertinent when you consider the fact that just about no
> > > editorial hand I know of seems to even know of the existence of many
> > > schools of poetry I know about.
> >
> > Because the map ain't the territory, and the connections between the
> > selections representing schools would be as-- or more-- important to
> > *me* as a reader. That's the problem with a survey. The problem with
> > the ultimate survey, as you propose, is not *just* that no editorial
> > hand can know all schools, it is that your conception would not allow
> > for he or she to create a path that includes discarding some of the
> > chaff along the way.
>
> The reader can't do this?
>
> >That might be democracy in action, I suppose, but
> > the ultimate result is a vast reference resource, not an artistic
> > selection.
>
>
>
>
> > >> You want the catalog, great. I want an experienced guide who says
> > >> "chuck out the Fodor's, son, and come with me, I have some real
> > >> great shit to show you."
> > >
> > > Bt what do you do if all your guides send you to the same real great
> > > shit? That, to me, is pretty much the case now. Even if it were not,
> > > I'd still want both kinds of anthologies.
>
> > So instead of doing one better we should just get an atlas, or better
> > yet the equivalent of the Congressional fact book, for the country and
> > hope that the bland laying out of every possible fact should sustain
> > us? Not for me, Bub.
>
> No.  We get the editors to READ the atlas and learn where to go to find
> something that's not shit.
> And, of course, I'm not talking about absolute thoroughness, but of
> repreesenting every viable school (which the editor would make the final
> decision on, but would depend in part on the school's being at least
> somewhat visible--through work in SOME magazines, however small, etc.
>
>
> > But if you ever get it done (which I doubt will ever happen since I
> > don't think any compendium in the land could contain every conceivable
> > school, and your idea is no good without someone serving as the
> > arbiter to say "no, you aren't a school unto yourself, but a
> > reprsentative of the post-confessional language limeracists" -- and
> > the minute that is allowed to happen, the idea dies a gurgling,
> > strangled death), I promise I will still buy it.
>
> > c
>
> It would cause a lot of controversy if anyone read it, but that would be
all
> to the good.  And certainly better than standard anthology after standard
> anthology coming out, supported by the NEA and people like you.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 05:47:24 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:47:24 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021030160541.00a858c0@postoffice.brown.edu><4.3.2.7.2.20021030160541.00a858c0@postoffice.brown.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20021031075740.00aaa450@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <013701c28195$72d24bd0$71864cca@JROSS2>

> The trouble with expecting returns from poetry is that it's a
> distraction.   The world makes noise but poetry comes from Saturn, using
an
> ultra-fine transmission system which requires immense amounts of time and
> concentration to pick up.  Any expectation that Saturnian wave-lengths
> might bounce off Creative Writing junkets or hob-nobbing with the litewawy
> crowd is just whistling in the turnip patch, to put it mildly.
>
> Henry

Or mistaking the poop in the bottom of said monkey cages for caviar.

Zan



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 05:49:44 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:49:44 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA
References: <3DC0EE85.14026.4FE4B9@localhost>
Message-ID: <013801c28195$74194ac0$71864cca@JROSS2>

Or perhaps making the reference book looseleaf and in alphabetical order so
that when new schools arise or are discovered, new pages can be issued on a
yearly basis to accommodate them?

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the PA


> > > Because the map ain't the territory, and the connections between the
> > > selections representing schools would be as-- or more-- important to
> > > *me* as a reader. That's the problem with a survey. The problem with
> > > the ultimate survey, as you propose, is not *just* that no editorial
> > > hand can know all schools, it is that your conception would not allow
> > > for he or she to create a path that includes discarding some of the
> > > chaff along the way.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > The reader can't do this?<<
>
> Sure, the reader can do this -- if all he or she has to do with the
> entire rest of his or her life is read poems.  But if nothing else it
> is the task of the taxonomist to reduce the necessity for the
> ordinary reader to read everything so that that reader can find the
> kind of stuff that reader likes to read.
>
> You seem to be confused about what a taxonomy is going to be used
> for, Bob -- you seem to think that it will be used to search out the
> new when in fact it will be much more commonly used to search out
> more of what the reader already likes.
>
> Further, though, a taxonomy of a subjective field such as poetry is
> not only not very desireable it is pretty silly right on the face of
> it -- after all there's always a new school of poetry and the
> taxonomist has to be willing either to accede to the impossibility of
> ever having a complete taxonomy or to evaluating all claims of "new
> school" and assigning such "new schools" to categories of old
> schools.
>
> Marcus Bales
>
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 05:56:10 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:56:10 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry & money
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021031100556.00ab8d20@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <013901c28195$75881d00$71864cca@JROSS2>

Henry,

It's time for you to stop collecting those mushrooms from cowpats and go
home to sleep.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Henry Gould" <Henry_Gould at brown.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 11:31 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry & money


> Since I have so many inspirational words of wisdom on this subject, I will
> proceed, ladies & gentlement.
>
> These impressions & insights come from one whose highest-paying job ever
> was writing resumes.  I was let go after a few months (couldn't charge
enough).
>
> Let me just say that while I think poetry & money have trouble getting
> together, I revere good teachers, and I hold freelance writers in
> awe.  Poets sometimes pop up in those professional categories.
>
> Alexander Pushkin was very firm & consistent on this issue.  He stated
that
> he simply could not write for money.  The inspiration was not there.  He
> wrote for writing.  But he felt perfectly justified in selling his work
> once it was written, and did his best to play the role of professional
> writer.  In doing so he helped lay the foundation for what free culture
> there is in Russia, so I'm told (by Igor Shlutzkip, in his cups).
>
> Doctors, lawyers and engineers are nothing to sneeze at.
>
> My deepest respect, however, goes to Romany violin players, professional
> circus people, and Gabriel Gudding.  Professional poets who uphold the
> circus tradition are true Kultur-Heroischesgammenstrudele in my buch.
John
> Milton would have joined the circus if he hadn't married so young - he
> mentions this repeatedly in his messages from Saturn.  Youngsters, take
> note.  If your CW Program does not include an in-depth course - at least 2
> semesters - in Circus Practicum, it's time to drop out and panhandle for a
> few decades.  You will learn more on the streets in one week than you will
> ever pick up from College Prep Poetry 101.  Money isn't everything - it's
> just a fiber (HOWEVER, a proviso is in order!  some money, you will
> discover, is metal.  And we will get into plastic next week.  class
dismissed).
>
> Now, as regards poetry.  As I was saying, Poetry comes from Saturn.
Saturn
> is the 6th planet from the Sun, very large, gaseous, and surrounded by
> colored rings.  For this week, I would like each of you to spend one hour
a
> day in your room, as quietly as possible, listening for transmissions from
> Saturn, and writing them down.  This includes you, Gudding.  No cheating,
> no copying other people's transmissions, no making up transmissions.  No
> showing off.  No pretending to yourself.  Transmissions from Saturn, as
you
> will discover, come in complicated speech patterns, often running to 10 or
> 12 stanzas or 60-90 lines (iambic pentameter is favored but not
> required).  You may need herb tea to help you through this - anything
> stronger is unadvisable (John Milton drank only water).  Nobody said it
> would be easy (except Mozart, the bum).  Shakespeare doesn't count - he
was
> Saturnian by birth.  His real name was Xlochopocatepetl Joe.
>
> Henry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 06:04:55 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:04:55 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff
References: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.10210311156280.3277-100000@mail.cr.duq.edu>
Message-ID: <014b01c28196$870ba500$71864cca@JROSS2>

You go, girl!!

Zan

PS: There's no point AT ALL in arguing with one of the most intelligent,
well-educated and creative minds of our century!  (And I am deeply sincere
about this!)

AND if her current university doesn't offer her tenure at some point in the
near future, they'd be fools.

*** My opinion for whatever it's worth.

----- Original Message -----
From: "ellen smith" <smith948 at duq.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] serious stuff


>
> Marcus,
> I am not trying to have it both ways.  Please reread or read Bourdieu.
> His theory has it that the field of literary production is autonomous to
> the field of power, this latter of which is associated with the active,
> "masculine" principle and is intimately tied to property, power, and logos
> (or law).  At the end of the 19th century this autonomy of art was
> assured, he observes, with the proliferation of "art for art's sake"
> movements and positionings of the author as other than the bourgeoisie
> (Flaubert and Baudelaire are important examples here).  In the process,
> the inverse relationship between commercial success and literary
> prestige/integrity formed the basis of much thought on the role of the
> artist vis a vis the field of power.  So, the assumption that has been
> discussed in this thread has a lot to do with the schema drawn up by
> Bourdieu.
> As for Turner, he does not deal directly with poetry in The Ritual
> Process.  However, in his ethnographies of the Ndembu peoples of Africa,
> he identifies some features of ritual that, he argues, apply as well to
> structure and community in developed societies.  This includes liminality,
> Which has to do lack of property and positionstatus, everything that
> structure (the equivalent of Bourdieu's field of power relations)
> includes.  Both Turner and Bourdieu, then, position
> communitas/liminality/poetry as
> passive/contemplative/subordinate/"feminine" in relation to the active
> spheres of structure and power.
> This is all the time I have right now to go into this.  The best
> thing would be for you to read these things rather than polemicize what I
> say about them in such a way that you accuse me of saying what I have not.
> Happy Halloween.
> Ellen s.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ellen Smith
>
>
> On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Marcus Bales wrote:
>
> > Ellen:
> > > Bourdieu has accounted for all of this in his *Rules of Art* and *The
> > > Field of Literary Production*.  In a more oblique way, Victor
> > > Turner's *The Ritual Process* associates poetry with communitas as
> > > opposed to structure (where money, political power, and legal rights)
> > > are organized.
> >
> > Can't have it both ways, Ellen: either you have to go with Bourdieu's
> > notion that art is a class-oriented and class-striving endeavor (and
> > therefore intimately associated with the structure where money,
> > political power and legal rights are organized) or you have to go
> > with Turner's distinction between such endeavors. But simply putting
> > the two in the same sentence doesn't do the trick of reconciling
> > their differences.
> >
> >
> >
> > Marcus Bales
> >
> > marcus at designerglass.com
> > http://www.designerglass.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov  1 06:06:24 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 06:06:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: the PA
References: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKAEBJCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
Message-ID: <004501c28196$b7ef8380$a0abfea9@j1c1k6>

> Marcus & Bob,
> Although you seem to disagree on just what editorial judgement should be
> rendered and on what constitutes a school, you agree (in the hypothetical
> case below) on placing poets in schools.  But this approach is
prescriptive
> and deductive (not to mention authoritarian), and so is not interesting to
> me.  I would be much more interested in an approach that was descriptive
and
> inductive, proceeding from formal features of particular poems and
> classifying according to these features.  This sort of morphological
> classification seems to me much more rigorous AND friendly--since it is
> based on observed differences of actual poems--than one in which an
> arbitrary set of features from a particular era are preserved (and certain
> poets pigeon-holed) in a temporary and arbitrary school.
> -Cc

My schools would be defined on the basis of the techniques used by the poets
in it.  I think defining
schools on the basis of geography or time-period or political outlook, etc.,
can be helpful, but is sloppy.  I avoid it, but it is no more authoritarian
than any other mode of classification.  Which is to say, that it is not
authoritarian--unless saying that a particular piece of fruit is an apple,
and another fruit is a pear, is.  It's all just labelling things, which is
the sole true purpose of words.  It can be done poorly or well, and the
categories that result can be used intelligently or badly.

--Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov  1 06:07:46 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 06:07:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA
References: <3DC0EE85.14026.4FE4B9@localhost> <013801c28195$74194ac0$71864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <004d01c28196$e923a4e0$a0abfea9@j1c1k6>

> Or perhaps making the reference book looseleaf and in alphabetical order
so
> that when new schools arise or are discovered, new pages can be issued on
a
> yearly basis to accommodate them?
>
> Zan

Exactly.  As all those misguided sciences that have taxonomies do--although
not necessarily in alphabetical order.

--Bob G.



> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 9:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the PA
>
>
> > > > Because the map ain't the territory, and the connections between the
> > > > selections representing schools would be as-- or more-- important to
> > > > *me* as a reader. That's the problem with a survey. The problem with
> > > > the ultimate survey, as you propose, is not *just* that no editorial
> > > > hand can know all schools, it is that your conception would not
allow
> > > > for he or she to create a path that includes discarding some of the
> > > > chaff along the way.
> >
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > The reader can't do this?<<
> >
> > Sure, the reader can do this -- if all he or she has to do with the
> > entire rest of his or her life is read poems.  But if nothing else it
> > is the task of the taxonomist to reduce the necessity for the
> > ordinary reader to read everything so that that reader can find the
> > kind of stuff that reader likes to read.
> >
> > You seem to be confused about what a taxonomy is going to be used
> > for, Bob -- you seem to think that it will be used to search out the
> > new when in fact it will be much more commonly used to search out
> > more of what the reader already likes.
> >
> > Further, though, a taxonomy of a subjective field such as poetry is
> > not only not very desireable it is pretty silly right on the face of
> > it -- after all there's always a new school of poetry and the
> > taxonomist has to be willing either to accede to the impossibility of
> > ever having a complete taxonomy or to evaluating all claims of "new
> > school" and assigning such "new schools" to categories of old
> > schools.
> >
> > Marcus Bales
> >
> > marcus at designerglass.com
> > http://www.designerglass.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov  1 06:12:14 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 06:12:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA
References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <ufzuqccrn.fsf@hotmail.com><013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6><006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <upttt8asq.fsf@chrislott.org><005501c27f8e$e6a2aea0$6eb1fea9@j1c1k6> <uu1j4r5bt.fsf@chrislott.org><006501c28000$8be214c0$47b9fea9@j1c1k6> <uy98f3lf1.fsf@chrislott.org><008d01c2804e$6e540640$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> <uk7jz1pq1.fsf@chrislott.org><013901c2806d$1124a500$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> <ufzunz3ea.fsf@chrislott.org> <001f01c280d4$aa51b9e0$d66afea9@j1c1k6> <013601c28195$713a46b0$71864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <005501c28197$88c5bba0$a0abfea9@j1c1k6>


> But you are still missing the point, Bob -- this is a reference book NOT
an
> anthology.
>
> Zan

Sorry, Zan, but I define poetry anthology as collection of poems, which is
what I'm talking about.  I know absolutely that there would be people who
would enjoy going through it to marvel at the different ways people can be
poets.  They would, in other words, use it as what you would call an
anthology.  Others would use it as a reference book--just as I use certain
traditional poetry anthologies as reference works only--so when I need to
find out what some mainstream poets are doing, I can look up their work.

--Bob G.




> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 7:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the PA
>
>
> > >  I find the merely academic
> >
> > my anthology would not be "merely academic."
> >
> > > discussion to be a waste of time (unless one is pursuing tenure). But
> > > you still don't have to sulk...
> >
> > Ah, but before (and I hate Marcussing, but sometimes you have to), you
> > indicated the anthology would be a good project--which suggests to my
you
> > DON'T think it'd be a waste of time.
> >
> > > >>That is why I prefer an editorial hand to guide me as I am learning
> > > >> something new.
> > > >
> > > > That editorial hand could help you more, it seems to me, if it could
> > > > direct you to a book like my proposed anthology and tell you to
> > > > check out the chapter on the Highway 903 school of poetry. And that
> > > > editorial hand would be more likely to know enough to direct you to
> > > > poetry you'd like if he knew more than a limited amount about what's
> > > > out there, as he would if he could consult said book. This is
> > > > especially pertinent when you consider the fact that just about no
> > > > editorial hand I know of seems to even know of the existence of many
> > > > schools of poetry I know about.
> > >
> > > Because the map ain't the territory, and the connections between the
> > > selections representing schools would be as-- or more-- important to
> > > *me* as a reader. That's the problem with a survey. The problem with
> > > the ultimate survey, as you propose, is not *just* that no editorial
> > > hand can know all schools, it is that your conception would not allow
> > > for he or she to create a path that includes discarding some of the
> > > chaff along the way.
> >
> > The reader can't do this?
> >
> > >That might be democracy in action, I suppose, but
> > > the ultimate result is a vast reference resource, not an artistic
> > > selection.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > >> You want the catalog, great. I want an experienced guide who says
> > > >> "chuck out the Fodor's, son, and come with me, I have some real
> > > >> great shit to show you."
> > > >
> > > > Bt what do you do if all your guides send you to the same real great
> > > > shit? That, to me, is pretty much the case now. Even if it were not,
> > > > I'd still want both kinds of anthologies.
> >
> > > So instead of doing one better we should just get an atlas, or better
> > > yet the equivalent of the Congressional fact book, for the country and
> > > hope that the bland laying out of every possible fact should sustain
> > > us? Not for me, Bub.
> >
> > No.  We get the editors to READ the atlas and learn where to go to find
> > something that's not shit.
> > And, of course, I'm not talking about absolute thoroughness, but of
> > repreesenting every viable school (which the editor would make the final
> > decision on, but would depend in part on the school's being at least
> > somewhat visible--through work in SOME magazines, however small, etc.
> >
> >
> > > But if you ever get it done (which I doubt will ever happen since I
> > > don't think any compendium in the land could contain every conceivable
> > > school, and your idea is no good without someone serving as the
> > > arbiter to say "no, you aren't a school unto yourself, but a
> > > reprsentative of the post-confessional language limeracists" -- and
> > > the minute that is allowed to happen, the idea dies a gurgling,
> > > strangled death), I promise I will still buy it.
> >
> > > c
> >
> > It would cause a lot of controversy if anyone read it, but that would be
> all
> > to the good.  And certainly better than standard anthology after
standard
> > anthology coming out, supported by the NEA and people like you.
> >
> > --Bob G.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov  1 06:21:35 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 06:21:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA
References: <3DBE53A2.7386.39BE26@localhost> <000a01c27f97$0e2fd440$eafafea9@j1c1k6> <012a01c2801b$c524f0c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <004901c2804c$3e0ceee0$23cbfea9@j1c1k6> <013401c28195$6e552820$71864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <005d01c28198$d6ed8e60$a0abfea9@j1c1k6>

> Bob, I find your comments puzzling since you have asserted again and
again,
> along with Jeff, that one should write for an audience, and not just to
> please one's self ...
>
> Zan

I don't think I've said that, but I'm no longer sure what I've said.  I
think you should try to compose the best work you can, using your own
judgement--which would be composing for yourself.  But you'd also be
composing for others like yourself, and hoping there are a lot of them.  I
think you start with the goal of making something communicable, so in that
sense are writing for others.  You feel that to satisfy them, you must
satisfy yourself.  So in that sense you're writing for yourself.  It's a
jumble.

Most of what I've previously said was simply to distinguish between those
who look at what is "successful" and emulate it and those who try to find
and use the best means of saying what they want to the way they want to.
Integrity.

--Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov  1 06:29:16 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 06:29:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180
References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost><006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uy98idy4t.fsf@hotmail.com> <008701c27ecf$06b747c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <013501c28167$9cde3ca0$64864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <008701c28199$e9ab6b20$a0abfea9@j1c1k6>

> If that was all you meant to say, which was patently obvious from what
> everyone else has had to say re Collins and his list, I wonder why you
> bothered to do so, then get your knickers in a twist when Chris questioned
> you?
>
> Zan

Consider the many alternative reasons why Chris's questions and the way he
put them might have gotten my knickers in a twist, if you want to assume
that about my knickers.

--Bob G.



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 06:27:32 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:27:32 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021031132054.00ac02e0@postoffice.brown.edu><3DC0EB64.1168.43AB09@localhost><4.3.2.7.2.20021031132054.00ac02e0@postoffice.brown.edu> <5.1.1.6.0.20021031223303.01854890@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <01f101c2819a$6d2bf820$71864cca@JROSS2>

Too right!

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabriel Gudding" <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] serious stuff


> Ellen, I for one find your posts very useful and your thoughts on Bourdieu
> are most welcome. Keep it up! You're a breath of reason, of clarity, and
of
> whopping ray of insight. Rock on, Ellen Smith!
>
> Gabe
>
>
>
> At 11:49 PM 10/31/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >Bourdieu does recognize the hierarchies that establish themselves within
> >the seemingly autonomous field of cultural production (ie., prestige vs.
> >cash doesn't mean that prestige doesn't draw cash indirectly...think here
> >of "genius grants" and such).  Turner is even more direct in recognizing
> >that communitas and structure are coexistent and dialectical, but that
> >communitas is almost always destined to ossify into structure:  "the
> >spontaneity and immediacy of communitas -- as opposed to the
> >jural-political character of structure -- can seldom be maintained for
> >very long.  Communitas soon develops a structure, in which free
> >relationships between individuals become converted into norm-governed
> >relationships between social personae."  My whole purpose for raising
> >these names (serious though you may take them to be) is not to support
> >either side of this thread (which I believe centers around the debate
that
> >serious art cannot also be lucrative), but rather to suggest that
Bourdieu
> >has been helpful to me in understanding why the debate rages on in the
> >first place.  Sorry if it is unwelcome.
> >ellen smith
> >
> >
> >
> >>Ellen Smith, this is serious stuff!
> >>
> >>It seems that "movements and positionings" of art for art's sake would
> >>have to be considered structuring activities as well, the establishing
of
> >>power/prestige relations in an alternate universe. The way the commune
> >>often seemed to produce a Head Honcho or Inside Group.
> >>
> >>I spoze Bourdieu takes care o'that too.
> >>
> >>Henry
> >>
> >>At 11:57 AM 10/31/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >>
> >>>Marcus,
> >>>I am not trying to have it both ways.  Please reread or read Bourdieu.
> >>>His theory has it that the field of literary production is autonomous
to
> >>>the field of power, this latter of which is associated with the active,
> >>>"masculine" principle and is intimately tied to property, power, and
logos
> >>>(or law).  At the end of the 19th century this autonomy of art was
> >>>assured, he observes, with the proliferation of "art for art's sake"
> >>>movements and positionings of the author as other than the bourgeoisie
> >>>(Flaubert and Baudelaire are important examples here).  In the process,
> >>>the inverse relationship between commercial success and literary
> >>>prestige/integrity formed the basis of much thought on the role of the
> >>>artist vis a vis the field of power.  So, the assumption that has been
> >>>discussed in this thread has a lot to do with the schema drawn up by
> >>>Bourdieu.
> >>>         As for Turner, he does not deal directly with poetry in The
Ritual
> >>>Process.  However, in his ethnographies of the Ndembu peoples of
Africa,
> >>>he identifies some features of ritual that, he argues, apply as well to
> >>>structure and community in developed societies.  This includes
liminality,
> >>>Which has to do lack of property and positionstatus, everything that
> >>>structure (the equivalent of Bourdieu's field of power relations)
> >>>includes.  Both Turner and Bourdieu, then, position
> >>>communitas/liminality/poetry as
> >>>passive/contemplative/subordinate/"feminine" in relation to the active
> >>>spheres of structure and power.
> >>>         This is all the time I have right now to go into this.  The
best
> >>>thing would be for you to read these things rather than polemicize what
I
> >>>say about them in such a way that you accuse me of saying what I have
not.
> >>>         Happy Halloween.
> >>>Ellen s.
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>New-Poetry mailing list
> >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 06:29:30 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:29:30 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: the PA
References: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKAEBJCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
Message-ID: <01f201c2819a$6e917b90$71864cca@JROSS2>

Yes indeed!  You succinctly put what I have been trying to say clearly to
Bob for ages.  AND it's much more inclusive than exclusive a way at looking
at work.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Crisman Cooley" <ccooley at overdomain.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 2:46 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: the PA


> Marcus & Bob,
> Although you seem to disagree on just what editorial judgement should be
> rendered and on what constitutes a school, you agree (in the hypothetical
> case below) on placing poets in schools.  But this approach is
prescriptive
> and deductive (not to mention authoritarian), and so is not interesting to
> me.  I would be much more interested in an approach that was descriptive
and
> inductive, proceeding from formal features of particular poems and
> classifying according to these features.  This sort of morphological
> classification seems to me much more rigorous AND friendly--since it is
> based on observed differences of actual poems--than one in which an
> arbitrary set of features from a particular era are preserved (and certain
> poets pigeon-holed) in a temporary and arbitrary school.
> -Cc
>
> > The dispute here seems to be that Chris (and I agree with him) wants
> > an editorial leadership that does more than merely passively (and
> > perhaps stupidly) collect a representative sample of every passing
> > poetic fad and call each one a "school of poetry" just because the
> > practitioners claim it is.  Chris wants, I think, an editorial
> > judgment that does considerably more than that -- one that says
> > "These folks claim to be a school of poetry but they're really more
> > of the same of this school of poetry, or a re-hashing of that school
> > of poetry, or undistinguished derivatives of another school of
> > poetry, and ought to be classified not as a separate school but as
> > followers of the _____ school", and the like.  You are apparently
> > willing, it appears, to grant "school" status to every junior high
> > schooler who use "2" instead of "to" and calls it mathemaku.
> >
> > Chris:
> > > > Your idea of a classification on schools is based on providing a
> > > > convenience to the readers so that they don't have to do this,
though
> > > > they could.
> >
> > Bob G:
> > > Ridiculous parallel.  It would take years for any
> > reader--assuming he got a
> > > lot more help from poets and critics than I have--merely to
> > list the schools
> > > that are out there, much less collect enough poems from each
> > school to make
> > > his selection from.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov  1 06:33:25 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 06:33:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180
References: <200210280438.g9S4cG1l028661@mx9.mx.voyager.net> <002c01c27e70$6faf6dc0$c819fea9@j1c1k6> <008501c28162$4ec8b630$64864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <009201c2819a$7e439460$a0abfea9@j1c1k6>

> Which is to assume that most of the poems in Collins' selection are "good"
> to begin with ...

not to imply poems are inferior is not the same as indicating they are good


and whose standard of "good" would this be in the end?

Someone's, that's all I can be sure of.

--Bob G.

>
> Zan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 6:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180
>
>
> > Just to beat my near-silent drum once again to say that this collection
of
> > poems is just the kind of thing that makes the need of a
widely-publicized
> > list of poetry schools so necessary.  Anyone who complains about
Collins's
> > selections by asking why so-and-so's poems were left off will just be
told
> > that Collins only could make so many selections.
> > Which is reasonable.  But someone asking why whole schools of poetry
were
> > ignored may get people understanding how unfair the list is.  And it is
> even
> > a "constructive" question inasmuch as it doesn't imply that the poems in
> the
> > collection are inferior to ones not in it, only that they don't
represent
> > anywhere near the full range of good American poems.
> >
> > --Bob G.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > But----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 11:39 PM
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180
> >
> >
> > Last time I looked, Billy Collins had not completed his list of poems
for
> > his Poetry 180 project.  Now he has.
> >
> > http://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/
> >
> > In case you're curious, as I was, what poems will be read in U.S. high
> > schools, the full list follows--I'm not quite sure what this list
> indicates,
> > but it's an interesting little anthology.  A number of poems and poets
new
> > to me, but surprisingly few, given the project.
> >
> > It *is* clear that Collins *really* likes the poems of Thomas Lux, who
has
> 7
> > of the 180.  I noticed a number of others with 3 or 4 entries.
> >
> > All the poems are readable online, by the way, at the above address.
> >
> > Poetry 180
> >    List of Poems and Authors
> >
> > 1     Introduction to Poetry     Billy Collins
> > 2     Sidekicks     Ronald Koertge
> > 3     The Summer I Was Sixteen     Geraldine Connolly
> > 4     The Blue Bowl     Jane Kenyon
> > 5     Lines     Martha Collins
> > 6     Daybreak     Galway Kinnell
> > 7     Naming the Stars     Joyce Sutphen
> > 8     Numbers     Mary Cornish
> > 9     Autobiographia     G.E. Patterson
> > 10     I'm A Fool To Love You     Cornelius Eady
> > 11     Passer-by, these are words...     Yves Bonnefoy
> > 12     The Bruise of This     Mark Wunderlich
> > 13     At the Other End of the Telescope     George Bradley
> > 14     Over and Over Tune     Ioanna Carlsen
> > 15     praise song     Lucille Clifton
> > 16     The Man into Whose Yard You Should Not Hit Your Ball     Thomas
Lux
> > 17     An Infinite Number of Monkeys     Ronald Koertge
> > 18     The Farewell     Edward Field
> > 19     The Partial Explanation     Charles Simic
> > 20     Blackberry Eating     Galway Kinnell
> > 21     Henry Clay's Mouth     Thomas Lux
> > 22     Poem for Adlai Stevenson and Yellow Jackets     David Young
> > 23     Tour     Carol Snow
> > 24     After Us     Connie Wanek
> > 25     Domestic Work, 1937     Natasha Trethewey
> > 26     Before She Died     Karen Chase
> > 27     Poetry     Don Patterson
> > 28     The Fathers     Elizabeth Holmes
> > 29     Advice from the Experts     Bill Knott
> > 30     One Morning     Eamon Grennan
> > 31     Unlike, for Example, the Sound of a Riptooth Saw     Thomas Lux
> > 32     Dearborn North Apartments     Lola Haskins
> > 33     The Meadow     Kate Knapp Johnson
> > 34     Gouge, Adze, Rasp, Hammer     Chris Forhan
> > 35     Imagining Defeat     David Berman
> > 36     The Printer's Error     Aaron Fogel
> > 37     She Didn't Mean to Do It     Daisy Fried
> > 38     Cartoon Physics, part 1     Nick Flynn
> > 39     Snow     David Berman
> > 40     Driving to Town Late to Mail a Letter     Robert Bly
> > 41     In the Well     Andrew Hudgins
> > 42     St. Francis and the Sow     Galway Kinnell
> > 43     A Library of Skulls     Thomas Lux
> > 44     Swan Song     Gerald Stern
> > 45     The Old Liberators     Robert Hedin
> > 46     Grammar     Tony Hoagland
> > 47     Fault     Ron Koertge
> > 48     Thanks For Remembering Us     Dana Gioia
> > 49     The Road That Runs Beside the River     Thomas Lux
> > 50     Otherwise     Jane Kenyon
> > 51     No Return     William Matthews
> > 52     Womanhood     Catherine Anderson
> > 53     Selecting a Reader     Ted Kooser
> > 54     Song     Eamon Grennan
> > 55     Biscuit     Jane Kenyon
> > 56     The Panic Bird     Robert Phillips
> > 57     Marine Snow at Mid-Depths and Down     Thomas Lux
> > 58     Hamlet Off-Stage: Laertes Cool     D.C. Berry
> > 59     Lesson     Forrest Hamer
> > 60     Football     Louis Jenkins
> > 61     Sister Cat     Frances Mayes
> > 62     The Bagel     David Ignatow
> > 63     A Little Tooth     Thomas Lux
> > 64     For My Daughter     David Ignatow
> > 65     Song Beside a Sippy Cup     Jenny Factor
> > 66     The Moon     Robert Bly
> > 67     Watching the Mayan Women     Luisa Villani
> > 68     Bringing My Son to the Police Station to be Fingerprinted
> > Shoshauna Shy
> > 69     The Space Heater     Sharon Olds
> > 70     Sentimental Moment or Why Did the Baguette Cross the Road?
> Robert
> > Hershon
> > 71     Smoking     Elton Glaser
> > 72     Gratitude to Old Teachers     Robert Bly
> > 73     You Mustn't Show Weakness     Yehuda Amichai
> > 74     Near the Wall of a House     Yehuda Amichai
> > 75     To a Daughter Leaving Home     Linda Pastan
> > 76     June 11     David Lehman
> > 77     A Birthday Candle     Donald Justice
> > 78     Doing Without     David Ray
> > 79     My Life     Joe Wenderoth
> > 80     Nuclear Winter     Edward Nobles
> > 81     After Years     Ted Kooser
> > 82     Small Comfort     Katha Pollitt
> > 83     In January     Ted Kooser
> > 84     Goalie     Todd R. Nelson
> > 85     Rotary     Christina Pugh
> > 86     Goodbye to the Old Life     Wesley McNair
> > 87     Alley Cat Love Song     Dana Gioia
> > 88     The Exchange     Ron Rash
> > 89     Dutch     Kay Ryan
> > 90     A New Poet     Linda Pastan
> > 91     The Streetsweeper     Ronald Koertge
> > 92     Birth Day     Elise Paschen
> > 93     Relearning Winter     Mark Svenvold
> > 94     My Daughters in New York     James Reiss
> > 95     From On Being Fired Again     Erin Belieu
> > 96     On Not Flying to Hawaii     Alison Luterman
> > 97     Invisible Work     Alison Luterman
> > 98     My Father's Hats     Mark Irwin
> > 99     Of Politics & Art     Norman Dubie
> > 100     Loud Music     Stephen Dobyn
> > 101     Some Clouds     Steve Kowit
> > 102     A Wreath to the Fish     Nancy Willard
> > 103     ballplayer     Evie Shockley
> > 104     The Other World     Robert Wrigley
> > 105     A Birthday Poem     Ted Kooser
> > 106     The Grammar Lesson     Steve Kowit
> > 107     Blind     Charles Webb
> > 108     Halloween     Mac Hammond
> > 109     Fast Break     Edward Hirsch
> > 110     On a Cape May Warbler Who Flew Against My Window     Eamon
Grennan
> > 111     The Kitchen Shears Speak     Christianne Balk
> > 112     Saturday At The Canal     Gary Soto
> > 113     Lift Your Right Arm     Peter Cherches
> > 114     Machines     Michael Donaghy
> > 115     The Death of Santa Claus     Charles Webb
> > 116     Cat Scat     Eamon Grennan
> > 117     Ladies and Gentlemen in Outer Space     Ron Padgett
> > 118     Notice     Steve Kowit
> > 119     Thanksgiving     Mac Hammond
> > 120     The Swan at Edgewater Park     Ruth L. Schwartz
> > 121     The Blizzard     Phillis Levin
> > 122     Where Is She?     Peter Cherches
> > 123     Coffee in the Afternoon     Alberto R?os
> > 124     Morning     Mary Oliver
> > 125     Animals     Miller Williams
> > 126     God Says Yes To Me     Kaylin Haught
> > 127     The Perfect Heart     Shara McCallum
> > 128     The Student Theme     Ronald Wallace
> > 129     The Birthday     Elizabeth Seydel Morgan
> > 130     Witness     Martha Collins
> > 131     Not Swans     Susan Ludvigson
> > 132     I Wish In The City Of Your Heart     Robley Wilson
> > 133     The Summer Day     Mary Oliver
> > 134     One Day A Woman     Miller Williams
> > 135     Walking to Oak-Head Pond, and Thinking of the Ponds I Will Visit
> in
> > the Next Days and Weeks     Mary Oliver
> > 136     Who Burns for the Perfection of Paper     Martin Espada
> > 137     Wan Chu's Wife In Bed     Richard Jones
> > 138     This Moment     Eavan Boland
> > 139     How Many Times     Marie Howe
> > 140     The Dead     Susan Mitchell
> > 141     The End and the Beginning     Wislawa Szymborska
> > 142     Locals     James Lasdun
> > 143     Social Security     Terence Winch
> > 144     Smell and Envy     Douglas Goetsch
> > 145     The Yawn     Paul Blackburn
> > 146     Blue Willow     Jody Gladding
> > 147     Tuesday 9:00 AM     Denver Butson
> > 148     Ordinance On Arrival     Naomi Lazard
> > 149     Her Head     Joan Murray
> > 150     96 Vandam     Gerald Stern
> > 151     My Moral Life     Mark Halliday
> > 152     It Took All My Energy     Tony Wallace
> > 153     Once upon a Time There Was a Man     Mac Hammond
> > 154     Forgiving Buckner     John Hodgen
> > 155     Legs     Mark Halliday
> > 156     Dandelion     Julie Lechevsky
> > 157     Heat     Michael Chitwood
> > 158     Forgotten Planet     Doug Dorph
> > 159     Loyal     William Matthews
> > 160     Dutch Boy     Doug Dorph
> > 161     Key To The Highway     Mark Halliday
> > 162     Herd Of Buffalo Crossing The Missouri On Ice     William
Matthews
> > 163     Mentor     Timothy Murphy
> > 164     Unconditional Day     Julie Lechevsky
> > 165     The Rider     Naomi Shihab Nye
> > 166     Kyrie     Tomas Transtr?mer
> > 167     The Last Wolf     Mary Tallmountain
> > 168     Gee, You?re So Beautiful That It?s Starting to Rain     Richard
> > Brautigan
> > 169     Schoolboys with Dog, Winter     William Matthews
> > 170     Summer in a Small Town     Linda Gregg
> > 171     Entrance     Dana Gioia
> > 172     How to Listen     Major Jackson
> > 173     Immortality     Lisel Mueller
> > 174     Our Other Sister     Jeffrey Harrison
> > 175     Gretel     Andrea Hollander Budy
> > 176     How to Change a Frog Into a Prince     Anna Denise
> > 177     Eagle Plain     Robert Francis
> > 178     End of April     Phillis Levin
> > 179     Bike Ride with Older Boys     Laura Kasischke
> > 180     Break     Dorianne Laux
> >      The Library of Congress     Washington, D.C.     poetry180 at loc.gov
> > (10/9/2002)
> >
> > ========================================
> > David Graham
> > Professor of English, Ripon College
> > grahamd at ripon.edu
> >    Home Page:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >    Poetry Library:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >
> > "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> > undergraduate education."
> >    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> > =======================================
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  1 06:31:09 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:31:09 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA
References: <3a.2e8a15ea.2aef1edf@aol.com> <ufzuqccrn.fsf@hotmail.com><013e01c27ef9$46ae9c00$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6><006001c27f14$305bef00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com><004701c27f3e$4bb8d720$976efea9@j1c1k6> <upttt8asq.fsf@chrislott.org> <029201c28178$ec5de3f0$64864cca@JROSS2> <002801c28194$ddfbba00$a0abfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <01f301c2819a$7004baa0$71864cca@JROSS2>

Well, at least we'd know where your hands have been.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the PA


> > I read the encyclopaedia for information ... and often out of interest,
so
> > perhaps applying a criteria of boredom wouldn't work for me re Bob's
> > project.  It might be interesting, but I think I might just dip into it
> > occasionally ... VERY occasionally.  And, Chris, there would be an
> editorial
> > hand guiding Bob's project -- his.
> >
> > However, I can't find enough reasons to consider what Bob is proposing
as
> > anything more than a research tool, certainly not an anthology.
> >
> > But, for excitement, stimulation, I'd definitely depend on my own
> resources
> > as I encountered texts/art/experience.
> >
> > Zan
>
> I just thought of a way that might make my project work for at least some
of
> you who aren't excited by it: instead of making a single anthology with
one
> chapter for each (viable) school of poetry, simply
> have a series of anthologies, one volume for each school.  Those who
wanted
> to explore the full length and width of their field could buy all the
> volumes; those not interested in that, could buy those individual volumes
> devoted to schools of poetry they were interested in.  Each volume would
> have the editorial hand Chris wants, and the series as a whole would have
my
> editorial hand.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Nov  1 07:47:41 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 07:47:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the PA
In-Reply-To: <015c01c28140$ecb26700$02f0fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3DC2319D.5593.1F9FB0@localhost>

Bob Grumman:
> Marcus, what I believe is that there are three hundred schools of poetry:
> I'm in 299 of them, and everyone else in the remaining one.  Actually, I'm
> the best one in the 300th, too.
> So the anthology I propose would have nothing but my work in it.<<

One suspected.

Marcus


> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 5:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the PA
> 
> 
> > Chris:
> > > > >> > That's the problem with a survey.
> > > > >> > The problem with the ultimate survey, as you propose, is not
> > > > >> > *just* that no editorial hand can know all schools, it is that
> > > > >> > your conception would not allow for he or she to create a path
> > > > >> > that includes discarding some of the chaff along the way.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob Grumman: > The reader can't do this?<<
> >
> > Chris:
> > > ... But to answer: they COULD, but they usually DON'T and they
> > > > generally shouldn't HAVE TO.
> >
> > Bob G:
> > > Only the most stupidly passive reader wouldn't automatically.<<
> >
> > I have to assume here that the thing even the most stupidly passive
> > reader would automatically do is discard the chaff as he or she read
> > through the entirety of all poetry in order to find a path through to
> > the sorts of poetry that that reader likes -- is that right, Bob?
> > But Chris's point is that it ought to be the editor who creates that
> > path, discarding most of the chaff (no one could discard it all, of
> > course, tastes being what they are) on behalf of the reader precisely
> > so the reader wouldn't have to read reams and reams of poetry in
> > order to find what he or she wanted.
> >
> > The dispute here seems to be that Chris (and I agree with him) wants
> > an editorial leadership that does more than merely passively (and
> > perhaps stupidly) collect a representative sample of every passing
> > poetic fad and call each one a "school of poetry" just because the
> > practitioners claim it is.  Chris wants, I think, an editorial
> > judgment that does considerably more than that -- one that says
> > "These folks claim to be a school of poetry but they're really more
> > of the same of this school of poetry, or a re-hashing of that school
> > of poetry, or undistinguished derivatives of another school of
> > poetry, and ought to be classified not as a separate school but as
> > followers of the _____ school", and the like.  You are apparently
> > willing, it appears, to grant "school" status to every junior high
> > schooler who use "2" instead of "to" and calls it mathemaku.
> >
> > Chris:
> > > > Your idea of a classification on schools is based on providing a
> > > > convenience to the readers so that they don't have to do this, though
> > > > they could.
> >
> > Bob G:
> > > Ridiculous parallel.  It would take years for any reader--assuming he
> got a
> > > lot more help from poets and critics than I have--merely to list the
> schools
> > > that are out there, much less collect enough poems from each school to
> make
> > > his selection from.  It would take him a single read of an anthology to
> find
> > > the chaff in it and discard it.<<
> >
> > Tired of arguing on your own side?  Thought Chris's side wasn't doing
> > too well so you decided to make his point for him?  Come on, Bob --
> > confused as many of your points often seem to be, are you really so
> > confused about this that you think that arguing against your own
> > viewpoint is persuasive?
> >
> > Bob G:
> > > As far as I'm concerned, the rest of what you have to say similarly
> > > indicates that you have little idea what I want to do.  I'm too tired to
> > > continue to try to explain myself. <<
> >
> > Well, too tired is a change from too busy -- I'll give you that,
> > though it comes to the same result, doesn't it:  you're never too
> > tired or too busy to state your confused points in the first place:
> > you're only too tired or too busy after someone points out the
> > confusions.
> >
> >
> > Marcus Bales
> >
> > marcus at designerglass.com
> > http://www.designerglass.com
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Nov  1 08:00:06 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 08:00:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: the PA
In-Reply-To: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKAEBJCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
References: <20021101045402.7E0CD10371@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3DC23486.11457.2B00DE@localhost>

Criman Cooley:
> Although [Marcus and Bob] seem to disagree on just what editorial judgement should be
> rendered and on what constitutes a school, you agree (in the hypothetical
> case below) on placing poets in schools....<<

In my case it is less a case of placing poets in schools than it is 
of observing a certain consonance among some poets in some ways and 
other poets in other ways.  I'm not the advocate for taxonomy that 
Bob is by any means, but I do recognize the value in categorization 
for the general reader:  if you like this person's poetry you'll 
likely find this other person's poetry congenial, too.  Nothing wrong 
with that that I can see.

Bob, though, seems to think that there are hard-and-fast schools of 
poetry in the same way that there are chemical elements: so that 
there are clear and purposeful tests for whether a poem is a Highway 
903 poem or a Fugitive poem or a Black Mountain poem or a Whatever 
poem, and there will be the same kind of lasting agreement about such 
categorizations as there is about whether this thing here is helium 
or hydrogen.

At least, if Bob thinks otherwise about his schools of poetry notion 
he hasn't made it clear that he does.  So far he keeps whacking away 
at the notion that there are such hard-and-fast schools, and that he 
knows what many, but not all, of them are, and he is working on 
finding more all the time in the same way that once the table of 
elements was intuited scientists kept looking for more elements.

Crisman Cooley:
> ... I would be much more interested in an approach that was
> descriptive and
> inductive, proceeding from formal features of particular poems and
> classifying according to these features.  This sort of morphological
> classification seems to me much more rigorous AND friendly--since it is
> based on observed differences of actual poems--than one in which an
> arbitrary set of features from a particular era are preserved (and certain
> poets pigeon-holed) in a temporary and arbitrary school.<<

Just so. Me, too.

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Fri Nov  1 08:19:34 2002
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 08:19:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021031223303.01854890@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <a05100303b9e7b4b458bf@[165.190.124.251]>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20021031132054.00ac02e0@postoffice.brown.edu>
 <3DC0EB64.1168.43AB09@localhost>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20021031132054.00ac02e0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021101081840.00ab59b0@postoffice.brown.edu>

I second that, Ellen.  I'm all for serious!

Henry

At 10:38 PM 10/31/02 -0600, you wrote:
>Ellen, I for one find your posts very useful and your thoughts on Bourdieu 
>are most welcome. Keep it up! You're a breath of reason, of clarity, and 
>of whopping ray of insight. Rock on, Ellen Smith!
>
>Gabe




From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Nov  1 08:56:14 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 08:56:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Robert Creeley, "After Lorca"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEFEFMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

After Lorca

	for M. Marti

The church is a business, and the rich
are the business men.
                                  When they pull on the bells, the
poor come piling in and when a poor man dies, he has a wooden
cross, and they rush through the ceremony.

But when a rich man dies, they
drag out the Sacrament
and a gold Cross, and go *doucement*, *doucement*
to the cemetery.

And the poor love it
and think it's crazy.


--Robert Creeley

fr. *Collected Poems of Robert Creeley, 1945-1975*
University of California Press, 1983.


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Fri Nov  1 10:36:59 2002
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 10:36:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & $
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021101101315.00acf3d0@postoffice.brown.edu>

Ellen, I haven't read Bourdieu. . .  & I don't know if the following 
applies to his work or not.

But I would be cautious to accept theories which through their 
(a-historical?) universality actually act (within the academy, mostly) as 
new mythologies.

For example to characterize the development of 19th-cent. art-for-art's 
sake as a simple dialectic of the liminal, the "feminine", the festive, 
rising to oppose power, logos, money, authority.  Structuralism leads to 
the myths of deconstruction.

I guess I would want to look at that development within more gradual 
changes in modernity: the weakening of communally-sanctioned medieval 
myths, the rise of Protestantism, capitalism, Renaissance individualism, etc.

In a culture in which the imagination has lost the sanction of religious 
authority, the rise of art for art's sake could be seen in tandem with the 
rise of the professional author, not so much in contrast with the 
commercial/masculine world, but as a staking out of the imagination as 
commercial property.

Mallarme's project of the sacred Book as the property of poets rather than 
the Church could be seen in this light.  At the same time, Rimbaud, the 
leading avatar of the bohemian artist, seemed to reject both poetry in 
general and the Satanic pride of the unsanctioned artistic imagination by 
the age of 21 ("Saison en Enfer").  That sequence records a moment of 
primal fright at the perspective of limitless imagination.  He immediately 
flung himself into the "vita activa", because the vita contemplativa of 
aesthetics appeared to be a hellish dead-end.

150 years later the role of the poet in culture remains unclear.  Neither 
popular success nor subcultural authority nor isolated purity provide 
believable sanctions for what the poet does.  This may be a good thing.

The Scythians assigned soothsaying to a group of "feminine" men, 
non-warriors, called "Enarees" (see Herodotus).

- Henaree



From chris at chrislott.org  Fri Nov  1 14:15:39 2002
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 10:15:39 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA
In-Reply-To: <013301c28195$6caad380$71864cca@JROSS2> ("ganesha"'s message of
 "Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:04:50 +0800")
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211010245010.10343-100000@mercury.sabren.com>
	<013301c28195$6caad380$71864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <usmyl5cf8.fsf@chrislott.org>

On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, ganesha at dezzanet.net.au wrote:

> BUT I don't believe calling my words a "cop-out" was warranted,
> since I do not sit on the proverbial whinging and not doing ... like
> your grandpa.

Sorry, sorry. That was a late night loss of control of my tone. I
shouldn't write any email after my late-night class. I wasn't meaning
that *you* were copping-out.

c
--
Chris Lott



From chris at chrislott.org  Fri Nov  1 14:21:23 2002
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 10:21:23 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA
In-Reply-To: <003801c28195$592e1e20$a0abfea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s
 message of "Fri, 1 Nov 2002 05:56:35 -0500")
References: <3DBD143A.31103.95206F@localhost>
	<003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uu1j6dy2e.fsf@hotmail.com>
	<008101c27ece$8911c0c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uof9ecddp.fsf@hotmail.com>
	<014401c27efa$0f32b3a0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6>
	<022801c28174$0e5276b0$64864cca@JROSS2>
	<003801c28195$592e1e20$a0abfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <uof995c5o.fsf@chrislott.org>

On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Bob Grumman wrote:
>> Hmmm -- did I miss the point here, Bob, or were you comparing
>> apples and lemons? Zan
> 
> You got me. Chris and Marcus got me so far from what I originally
> said, I finally lost track where I was.

That's the first time I've been compared with Marcus and it makes me
wonder if I have completely lost control of my intentions when I post.
I respect Marcus' intellect and his tenacity, but I think sometimes it
is misplaced and/or becomes representative of being enamored with
having the last word. I have experience with this degradation of
otherwise good intent.

I certainly wasn't trying to draw you into saying something different,
I was trying to understand what you were saying at more than the most
superficial level. But I basically stopped responding once I felt that
things were not going to become clearer and that we were probably
spinning close to a full circle.

At any rate, I can only speak for myself. IF you felt that I was
badgering you, I apologize. 

c
--
Chris Lott



From chris at chrislott.org  Fri Nov  1 14:23:05 2002
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 10:23:05 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180
In-Reply-To: <008701c28199$e9ab6b20$a0abfea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s
 message of "Fri, 1 Nov 2002 06:29:16 -0500")
References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost>
	<006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uy98idy4t.fsf@hotmail.com>
	<008701c27ecf$06b747c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6>
	<013501c28167$9cde3ca0$64864cca@JROSS2>
	<008701c28199$e9ab6b20$a0abfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <uk7jx5c2u.fsf@chrislott.org>

On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> Consider the many alternative reasons why Chris's questions and the
> way he put them might have gotten my knickers in a twist, if you
> want to assume that about my knickers.

I'm telling you right now, that wasn't me up in your knickers.

c
-- 
Chris Lott <chris at chrislott.org>



From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Nov  1 16:11:59 2002
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:11:59 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley, "After Lorca"
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F99@mail.ripon.edu>

I've always loved this poem, and always wondered, is there a specific Lorca
poem being alluded to?  Anyone know?

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Halvard Johnson
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Friday, November 1, 2002 7:56 AM
> To: 	New-Poetry
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] Poems by others: Robert Creeley, "After Lorca"
> 
> 
> After Lorca
> 
> 	for M. Marti
> 
> The church is a business, and the rich
> are the business men.
>                                   When they pull on the bells, the
> poor come piling in and when a poor man dies, he has a wooden
> cross, and they rush through the ceremony.
> 
> But when a rich man dies, they
> drag out the Sacrament
> and a gold Cross, and go *doucement*, *doucement*
> to the cemetery.
> 
> And the poor love it
> and think it's crazy.
> 
> 
> --Robert Creeley
> 
> fr. *Collected Poems of Robert Creeley, 1945-1975*
> University of California Press, 1983.
> 
> 
> Hal
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 


From gmcvay at patriot.net  Fri Nov  1 16:36:20 2002
From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:36:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] majordomo?
In-Reply-To: <02b601c28179$8814b6c0$64864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211011635400.8282-100000@adams.patriot.net>

Hey everyone! Does this list respond to majordomo commands? I'm quite busy 
doing NaNoWriMo, and was wanting to go digest this month.

Many thanks -- Gwyn

---
"Real as a raven" -- The Grateful Dead, "Easy To Love You," Mydland/Barlow




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov  1 16:35:28 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:35:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA
References: <3DBD143A.31103.95206F@localhost><003101c27ec8$b6cad3e0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uu1j6dy2e.fsf@hotmail.com><008101c27ece$8911c0c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uof9ecddp.fsf@hotmail.com><014401c27efa$0f32b3a0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6><022801c28174$0e5276b0$64864cca@JROSS2><003801c28195$592e1e20$a0abfea9@j1c1k6> <uof995c5o.fsf@chrislott.org>
Message-ID: <001b01c281ee$9996ed80$e4d5fea9@j1c1k6>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Lott" <chris at chrislott.org>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gioia and the NEA


> On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Bob Grumman wrote:
> >> Hmmm -- did I miss the point here, Bob, or were you comparing
> >> apples and lemons? Zan
> >
> > You got me. Chris and Marcus got me so far from what I originally
> > said, I finally lost track where I was.
>
> That's the first time I've been compared with Marcus and it makes me
> wonder if I have completely lost control of my intentions when I post.
> I respect Marcus' intellect and his tenacity, but I think sometimes it
> is misplaced and/or becomes representative of being enamored with
> having the last word. I have experience with this degradation of
> otherwise good intent.
>
> I certainly wasn't trying to draw you into saying something different,
> I was trying to understand what you were saying at more than the most
> superficial level. But I basically stopped responding once I felt that
> things were not going to become clearer and that we were probably
> spinning close to a full circle.
>
> At any rate, I can only speak for myself. IF you felt that I was
> badgering you, I apologize.

> Chris Lott

No apology needed even if I had thought you were badgering me, Chris, and I
didn't.  I only meant that you and Marcus were throwing a lot of questions
at me all at once.  I feel you and I were mostly bouncing opinions off each
other whereas Marcus was mostly trying to trip me up, and succeeding.

--Bob G.

> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From chris at chrislott.org  Fri Nov  1 16:50:46 2002
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 12:50:46 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley, "After Lorca"
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F99@mail.ripon.edu> ("Graham,
 David"'s message of "Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:11:59 -0600")
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86F99@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <uiszh3qo9.fsf@chrislott.org>

On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, David Graham wrote:

> I've always loved this poem, and always wondered, is there a
> specific Lorca poem being alluded to? Anyone know?

I'd like to know too...

I also wonder if it actually is "after Lorca" in quite the way we
might think. I assume the M. Marti in the dedication is Mona Marti,
who was apparently well-known in theatre for performing in productions
of Lorca's work, and perhaps this poem is tied to Lorca that way
rather than after a specific poem. She was active in the late 40's -
60's before turning to politics, and Creeley's poem is from the early
50's.

c
--
Chris Lott



From mandolin at mac.com  Fri Nov  1 16:51:45 2002
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:51:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] majordomo?
Message-ID: <6328966.1036187505220.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 It's not majordomo, so I doubt the command syntax is identical.  But you can go here : 

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

On Friday, Nov 01, 2002, at 04:36PM, Gwyn McVay <gmcvay at patriot.net> wrote:

>Hey everyone! Does this list respond to majordomo commands? I'm quite busy 
>doing NaNoWriMo, and was wanting to go digest this month.
>
>Many thanks -- Gwyn
>
>---
>"Real as a raven" -- The Grateful Dead, "Easy To Love You," Mydland/Barlow
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>



From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Fri Nov  1 19:29:46 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:29:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] serious stuff
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021031223303.01854890@mail.ilstu.edu>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021031132054.00ac02e0@postoffice.brown.edu>
 <3DC0EB64.1168.43AB09@localhost>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20021031132054.00ac02e0@postoffice.brown.edu>
 <5.1.1.6.0.20021031223303.01854890@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300b9e8cafb650f@[165.190.124.251]>

Zan, Gabe, Henry, and Mr. Bones:  Thanks for the affirmation.  I'm 
smart enough, I'm good enough, and doggonit...
Henry...true about the lure of structuralism and its limits.  It's 
like having a warranty for the power train portion of the car then 
still having to shell out hundreds of dollars (recent experience) 
when you thought you had it all "taken care of".  Oy.  Sometimes it's 
just enough to pass inspection.
I'm waiting for the study that reveals that the majority of those who 
cleave to structuralism are capricorns comme moi.
Here's to a contingent Friday evening at home with a child who wants 
to have fun whilst I just want to nod off in front of some 
independent film that mixes existentialism with titillating sex that 
is only theoretically informed at several removes.
I wanted, really, to put the inspection sticker on my forehead 
instead of the windshield.  But I don't want to expire next October.
Anyway, Bourdieu died this past year.  Long live Bourdieu.  And Carl, 
who fixes my Car.
ellen s.
-- 


From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Nov  1 21:14:57 2002
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 02:14:57 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Liberating Libretti
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEAPFMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <08ae01c28215$a80f6320$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com>

From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>

> {    Robin,
> {
> {    <<Anyone tried to read his _Nosferatu_ libretto?  EEEEK!!!>>
> {
> {    Interesting observation. How many libretti have you read lately? Upon
what criteria does this one earn an "EEEK?" How
> {    might it compare to, say, Menotti's libretto for Barber's "Vanessa?"
Or E. M. Forster's and Eric Crozier's libretto
> {    for Britten's "Billy Budd?" Or Carlisle Floyd's libretto for his own
version of "Of Mice and Men?"
> {
> {    Terry Ponick
>
> Or even the Auden/Kallman libretto for Stravinsky's *The Rake's Progress*?
>
> Hal     "You are at the highest level. There are
>             no folders above this one."
>                      --a Microsoft Nirvana message
> Halvard Johnson

Well, cutting to the bone and ditching irrelevancies, the obvious text here
would be W.H.Auden, _Libretti_ (CW, 1993), which includes the Auden/Kallman
libretto for Stravinsky's Rake.

The odd thing is that Gioia doesn't seem to have bloody READ (or even heard)
the Auden (or Auden/Kallman) libretti -- he doesn't rip the libretti, he
rips "The Witnesses".  This may entirely be due to that before Mendelson
started cranking out the Auden Collected, it was really quite difficult to
get a printed copy of an Auden (/Kallman) libretto.  Somewhere, I have a
first-edition of _The Bassarids_, but that was an exception.

I still have to hear any pertinent comment on _Nosferatu_.  Everyone and
their sister demonstrating just how much more than me they know about
libretti is obviously disturbing, but really not to the point.

<sigh>

Oh jezus, just to gain a little street-cred here, I wrote the libretto to
_The Rose-Garden_, music by the Australian composer Anne Boyd, performed at
the Opening Festival Season of the Sidney Opera House Annex, and with the
text and score published by Faber (Music) Ltd., so I'm not ENTIRELY
dumb-bunny when it comes to this.

:-(

Robin







From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Fri Nov  1 19:38:35 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:38:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & $
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021101101315.00acf3d0@postoffice.brown.edu>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021101101315.00acf3d0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100301b9e8cdf51803@[165.190.124.251]>

Henry:  I'm holding onto this until I can think about it more.  I 
especially agree with your call to attend to the gradual shifts and 
to avoid the simplicity of binaries.  This latter raises the spectre 
of Derrida.  Or at least Hegel.  And I'd love to hear what others 
have to say about your post here.  For my part, I need to let this 
sink in for a while.  If you have the energy any time, I'd like to 
hear more about what you mean by "Structuralism leads to the myths of 
deconstruction" and what you are imagining myth to be opposed to 
(there are those pesky binaries again!).
ellen s.

>Ellen, I haven't read Bourdieu. . .  & I don't know if the following 
>applies to his work or not.
>
>But I would be cautious to accept theories which through their 
>(a-historical?) universality actually act (within the academy, 
>mostly) as new mythologies.
>
>For example to characterize the development of 19th-cent. 
>art-for-art's sake as a simple dialectic of the liminal, the 
>"feminine", the festive, rising to oppose power, logos, money, 
>authority.  Structuralism leads to the myths of deconstruction.
>
>I guess I would want to look at that development within more gradual 
>changes in modernity: the weakening of communally-sanctioned 
>medieval myths, the rise of Protestantism, capitalism, Renaissance 
>individualism, etc.
>
>In a culture in which the imagination has lost the sanction of 
>religious authority, the rise of art for art's sake could be seen in 
>tandem with the rise of the professional author, not so much in 
>contrast with the commercial/masculine world, but as a staking out 
>of the imagination as commercial property.
>
>Mallarme's project of the sacred Book as the property of poets 
>rather than the Church could be seen in this light.  At the same 
>time, Rimbaud, the leading avatar of the bohemian artist, seemed to 
>reject both poetry in general and the Satanic pride of the 
>unsanctioned artistic imagination by the age of 21 ("Saison en 
>Enfer").  That sequence records a moment of primal fright at the 
>perspective of limitless imagination.  He immediately flung himself 
>into the "vita activa", because the vita contemplativa of aesthetics 
>appeared to be a hellish dead-end.
>
>150 years later the role of the poet in culture remains unclear. 
>Neither popular success nor subcultural authority nor isolated 
>purity provide believable sanctions for what the poet does.  This 
>may be a good thing.
>
>The Scythians assigned soothsaying to a group of "feminine" men, 
>non-warriors, called "Enarees" (see Herodotus).
>
>- Henaree
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Nov  2 12:11:35 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 12:11:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Eleni Vakalo, "Age of the Polyp"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEGPFMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Age of the Polyp

I have been thinking that the species polyp
Has similarities to our own work.
                                                  In such manner
Must events occur which
In depositing unrelated strata--
Fossilized seashells
Dry pieces of sponges
Perhaps twigs which weary birds
Passing above have dropped--
Penetrate into the joints of cellular tissue;
Dead organisms in the sea
Unite among themselves
Form vertebrae out of empty broken shells
Which pass into other offshoots
Salt accumulates
Twisting seaweed turns to bone before it can crumble
The imprint remains
Whiter threads pierce through these fossils
Protrusions, hollows remain
Sea reptiles once again make their nests there
Barnacles
And those fragments, which but lately glued themselves,
Waver still at edges, back and forth, in the water.

The appropriation of spaces between joints
Is heard in poems quietly like a creaking.

--Eleni Vakalo

tr. Kimon Friar


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov  2 12:29:54 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 12:29:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Orangutan Review
Message-ID: <131.166cb1b5.2af56592@aol.com>

http://www.zoopress.org/zoo_review.html


From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov  2 12:36:59 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 12:36:59 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] SHORT STUFF, on-line now!
Message-ID: <4c.144c7f5a.2af5673b@aol.com>

Subj:    Haikuhut.com announces OCTOBER issue of it's e-Zine SHORT STUFF, 
on-line now!
From:   HaikuHut.Com
To: jforjames at aol.com

 Hello Haiku, Senryu, Tanka, and Short Poetry Lover!

The OCTOBER issue of SHORT STUFF our Monthly on-line magazine for 'short
form' poetry, including Haiku, Senryu, Tanka, and all forms of short
poetry,is now on-line and available for viewing. 

We are also accepting SUBMISSIONS for the NOVEMBER and DECEMBER issues.
Please click on the submission button at the site to view our criteria and
submit your work! If you want to see more of a particular style why not
send us some of your work!

***************************************************************************
OCTOBER issue of SHORT STUFF!
***************************************************************************
The OCTOBER issue of our on-line e-Zine:  SHORT STUFF is now on-line for
viewing. We have some outstanding poets in this issue, and two reviews of
haiku information sites, and publications you will want to read.

Included in this issue is poetry from around the world by TWENTY ONE of the
best poets writing short form poetry! We also some wonderful photographs
from Kelly L. Hall. Inspire yourself!

Featured Haikuhut Poet is REBECCA (BEKI) REESE, a talented poet, and
patient teacher. Her haiku, tanka, and free verse are something you will
not soon forget reading.

CLICK THE LINK BELOW TO GO RIGHT TO THE OCTOBER ISSUE!
http://www.haikuhut.com/ShortStuff/ShortStuff.html
***************************************

This issue has 21 excellent and eclectic poets. We have haiku, senryu,
tanka, cinquain, and some stunning free verse. We have a PHOTO HAIKU
section where you can add your own haiku, and MINI REVIEWS of haiku
information sites and publications. Our featured HaikuHut Poet of the
Month is Rebecca (Beki) Reese!

Click on in and enjoy!

Sincerely,

Michael Rehling
www.haikuhut.com, www.poetrylives.com, and www.photohaiku.net


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Nov  2 13:16:06 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 12:16:06 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Honk for Jesus
Message-ID: <200211021815.gA2IF5AD082377@mx2.mx.voyager.net>

I recently received my contributor's copy of an unusual new anthology,
called *Sweet Jesus:   Poems About the Ultimate Icon*.  Edited by Denise
Duhamel and Nick Carbo, from Anthology Press.

Unusual in that this isn't a devotional book, and in fact tends toward the
irreverent end of the spectrum.  Don't tell the Attorney General!  Section
titles are "Strange Faith," "Jesus is Just Alright," "Apocryphal Jesus," and
"Contemporary Jesus." 

Other contributors include Stephen Dunn, Kim Addonizio, Tony Hoagland, Molly
Peacock, Lucia Perillo, Sherman Alexie, Andrew Hudgins, Jim Daniels, Mary
Karr, James Tate, Maxine Kumin, and the omnipresent Lyn Lifshin.

========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov  2 13:54:02 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:54:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1066 - 12 msgs
References: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKMEAFCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
Message-ID: <00b501c282a1$39258160$85f4fea9@j1c1k6>

Why is it so hard for you guys to realize that the existence of an
intelligent anthology would NOT force you to leave the little islands you
are clinging to?

--Bob G.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Crisman Cooley" <ccooley at overdomain.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 9:50 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1066 - 12 msgs


> Chris,
> In the Encyclopedia of Poetry, under "G" for Graphophiliacs, Wien's Law is
> one of the favorite entries--revered by the editor  as "beauty^3".  And
> though I've read the entry =int((7*52+1.25)*5)+121 times--every day, that
> is, since it was published; and though I derive (my favorite verb!)
> exhiliration to the point of crapulence from his inticate combination of
> verbs (/,*,*,^!); yet I have never figured out what Wien meant by the
> enigmatic "4" or the breathtaking "3".  Yes, I'm fairly certain the result
> is 1.3333, but what are the referents, prior to division?  It is the
> not-knowing, the ineffable mystery of these Arabic nouns, that brings me
> back again and again.  Pardon me, I must get to my Encyclopedia.
>
> -cc
>
>
> > "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> writes:
> >
> > > His narrow choice of a goal is one reason that he is guilty of doing
> > > what I say he did: fail to indicate the width of contemporary American
> > > poetry. I'm not even saying he SHOULD have done that, just that he
> > > failed to.
>
> > From: Chris L <chrisl_ak at hotmail.com>
>
> > He is also "guilty" of failing to prove that the volume of a sphere
> > can be calculated by 4/3*pi*r^3 (or Wien's law regarding wavelength of
> > radiation emission, which would be more relevant to me at the moment
> > :).
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Nov  2 14:07:39 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 13:07:39 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of School
Message-ID: <200211021906.gA2J6csk029278@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

Bob, forgive me, but why is it hard for you to understand that poetic
"schools" of 12-16 poets in a nation of hundreds of millions of people are
unlikely ever to be of compelling interest to the majority?  By definition
the sort of poetry you love most is a tiny minority taste.  No amount of
exposure or promotion is going to make readers love this stuff much more
than they already do.  If you can't live with that fact, you could at least
consider that you've made your point about it.

========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================


----------
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1066 - 12 msgs
>Date: Sat, Nov 2, 2002, 12:54 PM
>

>Why is it so hard for you guys to realize that the existence of an
>intelligent anthology would NOT force you to leave the little islands you
>are clinging to?
>
>--Bob G.
>


From hruggier at localnet.com  Sat Nov  2 17:02:37 2002
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 17:02:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Canadian Poetry
References: <20021030155625.6BF003F87@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <3DC44B7C.F7070CE3@localnet.com>

Isn't he the author of the famous jump rope chant - Cinderella Dressed
in Yella?

"Robert R.Cobb" wrote:

> Ahem!
>
> Pardon me for taking exception once more.  I do believe it's Rudyard,
> not "Rudolph."  And, either it was written, tongue in cheek, "Pet
> Lariat," or Mike Strand was pretty adept at roping doggies.
>
> Bob C.
>
> You wrote?:
>
> Wasn't Richard Service heavily influenced by Rudolph Kipling?
>
> And let's not forget that noble Canadian-American from Prince Edward
> Island, Mike Strand , who served so ably as our Pet Lariat.
>
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known
> mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
>
> --- message from "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu> attached:
>
>    ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Canadian Poetry
> Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:35:16 -0600
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>
>           From Richard Service to today's top poets such as
>           Robert Hilles and
>
> Margaret Atwood, each poet brings there unique background to writing.
> ______
>
> Wasn't Richard Service heavily influenced by Rudolph Kipling?
>
> And let's not forget that noble Canadian-American from Prince Edward
> Island, Mike Strand , who served so ably as our Pet Lariat.
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
>
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From chris at chrislott.org  Sat Nov  2 17:11:35 2002
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 17:11:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1066 - 12 msgs
In-Reply-To: <00b501c282a1$39258160$85f4fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211021707230.7188-100000@mercury.sabren.com>

On Sat, 2 Nov 2002, Bob Grumman wrote:

> Why is it so hard for you guys to realize that the existence of an
> intelligent anthology would NOT force you to leave the little islands you
> are clinging to?
> 

Now you are just purposefully trolling. I never objected to your 
"intelligent" anthology. I called it something that were it even 
possible would be extremely boring and time could be much better spent 
in other ways. I noted that it is a logically impossible goal. I noted 
that were you ever to "complete" such an incommensurate task, I would 
buy a copy.

This has nothing to do with clinging to little islands, and I suspect 
you know it. Characterizing those who are willing to say that there 
are kinds of poety they don't like and are not interested in is a 
ridiculous assertion spoken only to be provocative. Perhaps all poems 
and schools are equal in your eyes, and capturing all of them in some 
gigantic anthology categorized by, apparently, yourself, gives you 
comfort. If so, more power to you. Doesn't mean the rest of us are 
more narrow.

c



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov  2 19:36:00 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 19:36:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1066 - 12 msgs
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211021707230.7188-100000@mercury.sabren.com>
Message-ID: <011601c282d0$fc748ba0$85f4fea9@j1c1k6>

> > Why is it so hard for you guys to realize that the existence of an
> > intelligent anthology would NOT force you to leave the little islands
you
> > are clinging to?
> >
>
> Now you are just purposefully trolling.

Comparing my saying Billy did not cover the full breadth of American poetry
in his anthology to his not carrying out some mathematical procedure or
pseudo-procedure (I forget what you had) was NOT trolling?

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov  2 20:15:14 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 20:15:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of School
References: <200211021906.gA2J6csk029278@mx12.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <013c01c282d6$77b5a380$85f4fea9@j1c1k6>

> Bob, forgive me, but why is it hard for you to understand that poetic
> "schools" of 12-16 poets in a nation of hundreds of millions of people are
> unlikely ever to be of compelling interest to the majority?  By definition
> the sort of poetry you love most is a tiny minority taste.  No amount of
> exposure or promotion is going to make readers love this stuff much more
> than they already do.  If you can't live with that fact, you could at
least
> consider that you've made your point about it.

Sorry, Marcus--I mean David, but most of the neglected schools I'm
interested in getting a list of have a great many more practitioners than 12
to 16.  The North American Haiku school, for instance.  The poets I call
contragenteel because no seems able to give me a better name for them--these
being Iowa school poets with bad manners, basically.  Visual, performance
and sound poets.

Other schools may be limited, and going nowhere, but still be doing things
of value, things mainstream poets could use as they are said now to be using
language poetry techniques--if they knew of these schools.

As for your confidence that no more people will come to appreciate the
output of certain very small schools of poetry than already do, that's
absurd.  How do you know?  My main school now, mathematical poetry, has
possibly less than 12 practitioners in the country--but one of them, Betsy
Franco, is in the process of having a children's book of it that she
composed commercially  published, having been inspired by a math poem of
mine in an anthology for teachers--like Collins's except, of course, that it
was really an encyclopedia because it didn't just have rhymes and free
verse.

Visual poetry is moderately popular in other countries and slowly gaining an
audience here in the US.  Language poetry was fairly recently a micro-school
but is taken more and more seriously daily.

But increasing the audience for neglected schools of poetry is only one of
my objectives.  Getting it seriously discussed is more important.  If their
poetry is of clear value to at least a few intelligent people, it should be
discussed.  Its existence should at the very least be noted.  Even if the
masses never come to cherish it the way they do Robert Frost's and Rod
McKuen's.

As for making my point, I agree that I too often get annoyed with people's
talking about contemporary American poetry and meaning only what's in some
commercial anthology and pop off.  On the other hand, I am sincerely
interested in finding out what kind of poetry I don't know about is out
there, so I do not feel my calls for a list of schools of poetry are too
frequent.  Someone who knows of a few schools I don't about might join this
list at any time, for all I know.

I might add, finally, that most of my too numerous posts are responses to my
critics.

--Bob G.
















If I gave that figure, and I gave one like it, I know, I merely meant to
indicate that a group might be a school even if it had only a few serious
practitioners.  All schools start with fewer than 12 to 16.  There are other
criteria, such as their poetry's being distinctively unlike the poetry of
other schools.  And immoderately liked by at least a few people.



From lcrespi at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  3 06:00:26 2002
From: lcrespi at yahoo.com (Linda Crespi)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 03:00:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] November Snakeskin - Short poems
In-Reply-To: <a05100300b9b405588cfb@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <20021103110026.59093.qmail@web13907.mail.yahoo.com>

The November Snakeskin is short poems only. High
quality, too.

Find it at www.snakeskin.org.uk

=====
The Crespi Page is at: http://snakeskin.org.uk/crespi.htm New work appears usually in Snakeskin Webzine: http://www.snakeskin.org.uk

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/


From lcrespi at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  3 06:00:52 2002
From: lcrespi at yahoo.com (Linda Crespi)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 03:00:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] November Snakeskin - Short poems
In-Reply-To: <a05100300b9b405588cfb@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <20021103110052.42806.qmail@web13901.mail.yahoo.com>

The November Snakeskin is short poems only. High
quality, too.

Find it at www.snakeskin.org.uk

=====
The Crespi Page is at: http://snakeskin.org.uk/crespi.htm New work appears usually in Snakeskin Webzine: http://www.snakeskin.org.uk

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Nov  3 09:12:12 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 09:12:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Eleni Vakalo, "My Father's Eye"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEHOFMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

My Father's Eye

My father had a glass eye.

On Sundays when he stayed at home he would take other
eyes out of his pocket, polish them with the edge of his sleeve
and then call my mother to make her choice. My mother
would giggle.

In the mornings my father was well satisfied. He would toss
the eye in his hand before he wore it and would say it was a
good eye. But I did not want to believe him.

I would throw a dark shawl over my shoulders as though I
were cold but this was that I might spy on him. At last one
day I saw him weeping. There was no difference at all from
a real eye.
          *This poem
	Is not to be read
	By those who do not love me
	Not even
	By those
	Who will not know me
	If they do not believe I existed
	Like themselves*
After this episode with my father
I became suspicious even of those who had real eyes.

--Eleni Vakalo

tr. Kimon Friar


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From ccooley at overdomain.com  Sun Nov  3 10:28:55 2002
From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:28:55 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Art & $
In-Reply-To: <20021102170102.8167E103E6@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKMECFCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

Ellen & Henry,
To elaborate on two notions of "mythology" and their intersection with art:
First as a theory in the academy (example: Structuralism), second as a way
that a whole society interprets phenomena of life, death, God(s), origin,
immortality, etc.

The first use of Mythology is ironic, if I'm interpreting Henry correctly,
meaning that some theories are so successful they become confused in the
minds of their advocates with Truth, or (in the absence of Truth) a Polemic
that gives its advocate the appearance of being Right.  Seems we can use
Structuralism as a tool for textual criticism, and when we're done we can
set it down among all the other tools for making sense of a confusing world.
And if binaries are too pesky, we need not discard them, but give them a
middle ground.  If someone believes the world is Black or White (indicating
the Absence or Presence of light), then this view can be made more
interesting by saying it is Black AND White to Some Degree.  This
introduction of fuzzy logic (or at least a Qualitative version of it useful
in artistic discourse) could then account for the phenomenon of color, for
example.

In the second use of Mythology, as a society's interpretive lens onto a
chaotic world, I believe the problem is not too many Mythologies, but too
few.  You might even say that the quandry of modern art (as a reflection of
modern life) is precisely the lack of Given interpretive models.  Think, for
example, of _Waiting for Godot_ or Kafka's _Castle_ as examples of No
Mythology.  Where the only belief left is that there is some Authority who
does understand what is happening and that will eventually (we can only
hope) let us in on the secret.  The Romantic return to Greek mythology (a
continuation, p'raps, of the renaissance trend) may be another response to
what Henry called the lost sanction of religious authority.  But use of
Greek myth today (as Color, or whatever) seems to me Quaint and Irrelevant
as relying on the mythology-to-end-all-mythologies, the Christ myth.  But
now I've probably said too much.

--Cc



> Henry:  I'm holding onto this until I can think about it more.  I
> especially agree with your call to attend to the gradual shifts and
> to avoid the simplicity of binaries.  This latter raises the spectre
> of Derrida.  Or at least Hegel.  And I'd love to hear what others
> have to say about your post here.  For my part, I need to let this
> sink in for a while.  If you have the energy any time, I'd like to
> hear more about what you mean by "Structuralism leads to the myths of
> deconstruction" and what you are imagining myth to be opposed to
> (there are those pesky binaries again!).
> ellen s.
>
> >Ellen, I haven't read Bourdieu. . .  & I don't know if the following
> >applies to his work or not.
> >
> >But I would be cautious to accept theories which through their
> >(a-historical?) universality actually act (within the academy,
> >mostly) as new mythologies.
> >
> >For example to characterize the development of 19th-cent.
> >art-for-art's sake as a simple dialectic of the liminal, the
> >"feminine", the festive, rising to oppose power, logos, money,
> >authority.  Structuralism leads to the myths of deconstruction.
> >
> >I guess I would want to look at that development within more gradual
> >changes in modernity: the weakening of communally-sanctioned
> >medieval myths, the rise of Protestantism, capitalism, Renaissance
> >individualism, etc.
> >
> >In a culture in which the imagination has lost the sanction of
> >religious authority, the rise of art for art's sake could be seen in
> >tandem with the rise of the professional author, not so much in
> >contrast with the commercial/masculine world, but as a staking out
> >of the imagination as commercial property.
> >
> >Mallarme's project of the sacred Book as the property of poets
> >rather than the Church could be seen in this light.  At the same
> >time, Rimbaud, the leading avatar of the bohemian artist, seemed to
> >reject both poetry in general and the Satanic pride of the
> >unsanctioned artistic imagination by the age of 21 ("Saison en
> >Enfer").  That sequence records a moment of primal fright at the
> >perspective of limitless imagination.  He immediately flung himself
> >into the "vita activa", because the vita contemplativa of aesthetics
> >appeared to be a hellish dead-end.
> >
> >150 years later the role of the poet in culture remains unclear.
> >Neither popular success nor subcultural authority nor isolated
> >purity provide believable sanctions for what the poet does.  This
> >may be a good thing.
> >
> >The Scythians assigned soothsaying to a group of "feminine" men,
> >non-warriors, called "Enarees" (see Herodotus).
> >
> >- Henaree




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov  1 06:26:52 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 06:26:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180
References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost> <006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <005301c27ed9$6dc49d00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <3DBDC936.16A6442A@earthlink.net> <00f201c27edb$af564780$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <018501c28170$7936a5e0$64864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <007001c28199$9427a240$a0abfea9@j1c1k6>

> Bob wrote:
>  Right, and I do try to emphasize my statement is not necessarily an
> objection but a description.  However, I think you'd hook more kids on
> poetry by giving them more kinds of poetry to get hooked on.  Some kids
who
> can't stand traditional poetry might like visual poetry or even certain
> language poems--and even gain an appreciation of traditional poetry as a
> result!  (Because that's where all the new poetries are coming from.)
>
>
> Zan writes:
> Again, more sweeping generalisations.  Most high school students I know
are
> as afraid of and ill-informed about poetry as their English teachers.
> (Personally, have been on both sides of the fence.)  And I certainly don't
> agree on two points in the above statement: 1) that contemporary sorts of
> poetry will lead them back to more traditional schools of poetry,

I said "might."  And I didn't say "will lead" but "gain an appreciation."


and 2)
> that all 'new' poetries come from (evolve from?) traditional poetry.  ...
> All of which begs the question of what could be considered 'traditional'?

We all have our own definitions of it.  For me, it's
(1) Tennyson, etc., and (2) the standard flat free verse that has been
ruling the roost in the US for the past 50 years or so.

--Bob G.



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Nov  3 14:08:23 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:08:23 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Perfect Audience: If A Tree Falls In The Forest...
Message-ID: <155.16e7a190.2af6ce27@aol.com>


I'm a great fan of her [Iris Murdoch], but I haven't read any of her books. I 
just don't have the time.

Kate Winslet
    --The Daily Telegraph 15/01/02

*********************************

To remove yourself from the Daily Philosophical Quotation list, go here:
http://www.philosophers.co.uk/quotations/quoteaday_remove.htm


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Nov  3 14:19:18 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 13:19:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Perfect Audience: If A Tree Falls In The Forest...
Message-ID: <200211031918.gA3JIH0V040811@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

>
>I'm a great fan of her [Iris Murdoch], but I haven't read any of her books. I 
>just don't have the time.
>
>Kate Winslet
>    --The Daily Telegraph 15/01/02


I feel much the same way about the recent work of John Ashbery.

========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================



From chris at chrislott.org  Sun Nov  3 14:26:10 2002
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 10:26:10 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of School
In-Reply-To: <013c01c282d6$77b5a380$85f4fea9@j1c1k6> ("Bob Grumman"'s
 message of "Sat, 2 Nov 2002 20:15:14 -0500")
References: <200211021906.gA2J6csk029278@mx12.mx.voyager.net>
	<013c01c282d6$77b5a380$85f4fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <u8z0acv59.fsf@chrislott.org>

On Sat, 2 Nov 2002, Bob Grumman wrote:

> Language poetry was fairly
> recently a micro-school but is taken more and more seriously daily.

Really? I was under the impression that it was (thankfully, imo)
actually going the other way. That the heyday of the language poets
was over.

> Even if the masses never come to cherish it
> the way they do Robert Frost's and Rod McKuen's.

You should be sacrificed on the altar of the poetry slam (though I
imagine you like the almost 100% drivel that school of "poetry"
produces as well-- I am getting the impression you are pretty enamored
of anything that the majority don't care for) or whatever wouldn't be
your briar patch for mentioning those two in the same sentence.

c
--
Chris Lott



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov  3 17:12:13 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 17:12:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of School
References: <200211021906.gA2J6csk029278@mx12.mx.voyager.net><013c01c282d6$77b5a380$85f4fea9@j1c1k6> <u8z0acv59.fsf@chrislott.org>
Message-ID: <024401c28386$10c816c0$c447fea9@j1c1k6>

> > Language poetry was fairly
> > recently a micro-school but is taken more and more seriously daily.

> Really? I was under the impression that it was (thankfully, imo)
> actually going the other way. That the heyday of the language poets
> was over.

Of course, its heyday is over.  That's why it's getting into more and more
commercial and academic anthologies now.  I forget why else it's making
progress in the Big World.  I think some language poets are starting to win
prizes or something.

> > Even if the masses never come to cherish it
> > the way they do Robert Frost's and Rod McKuen's.
>
> You should be sacrificed on the altar of the poetry slam (though I
> imagine you like the almost 100% drivel that school of "poetry"
> produces as well-- I am getting the impression you are pretty enamored
> of anything that the majority don't care for) or whatever wouldn't be
> your briar patch for mentioning those two in the same sentence.

Your impressions are probably no more than 60 or 70% wrong.  I'm not big on
slam poetry, but respect performance and sound poetry, which are related but
different.  I don't like much most of the poetry that is called language
poetry but think many poets called language poets have made major
contributions to poetry.

Frost is one of my favorite poets.  I like much of the poetry of the Iowa
School but think very little of it is first-rate.  The schools I consider
myself part of I naturally like the best--but I don't think the majority
dislike any of them.  They would have trouble disliking them since few of
them have ever heard of any of them.

--Bob G.



From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Sun Nov  3 18:58:35 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 18:58:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Art & $
In-Reply-To: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKMECFCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
References: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKMECFCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
Message-ID: <a05100300b9eb688c5f61@[165.190.124.251]>

I don't think you've said "too much," c.c.  Thank you.
ellen s.

>Ellen & Henry,
>To elaborate on two notions of "mythology" and their intersection with art:
>First as a theory in the academy (example: Structuralism), second as a way
>that a whole society interprets phenomena of life, death, God(s), origin,
>immortality, etc.
>
>The first use of Mythology is ironic, if I'm interpreting Henry correctly,
>meaning that some theories are so successful they become confused in the
>minds of their advocates with Truth, or (in the absence of Truth) a Polemic
>that gives its advocate the appearance of being Right.  Seems we can use
>Structuralism as a tool for textual criticism, and when we're done we can
>set it down among all the other tools for making sense of a confusing world.
>And if binaries are too pesky, we need not discard them, but give them a
>middle ground.  If someone believes the world is Black or White (indicating
>the Absence or Presence of light), then this view can be made more
>interesting by saying it is Black AND White to Some Degree.  This
>introduction of fuzzy logic (or at least a Qualitative version of it useful
>in artistic discourse) could then account for the phenomenon of color, for
>example.
>
>In the second use of Mythology, as a society's interpretive lens onto a
>chaotic world, I believe the problem is not too many Mythologies, but too
>few.  You might even say that the quandry of modern art (as a reflection of
>modern life) is precisely the lack of Given interpretive models.  Think, for
>example, of _Waiting for Godot_ or Kafka's _Castle_ as examples of No
>Mythology.  Where the only belief left is that there is some Authority who
>does understand what is happening and that will eventually (we can only
>hope) let us in on the secret.  The Romantic return to Greek mythology (a
>continuation, p'raps, of the renaissance trend) may be another response to
>what Henry called the lost sanction of religious authority.  But use of
>Greek myth today (as Color, or whatever) seems to me Quaint and Irrelevant
>as relying on the mythology-to-end-all-mythologies, the Christ myth.  But
>now I've probably said too much.
>
>--Cc
>
>
>
>>  Henry:  I'm holding onto this until I can think about it more.  I
>>  especially agree with your call to attend to the gradual shifts and
>>  to avoid the simplicity of binaries.  This latter raises the spectre
>>  of Derrida.  Or at least Hegel.  And I'd love to hear what others
>>  have to say about your post here.  For my part, I need to let this
>>  sink in for a while.  If you have the energy any time, I'd like to
>>  hear more about what you mean by "Structuralism leads to the myths of
>>  deconstruction" and what you are imagining myth to be opposed to
>>  (there are those pesky binaries again!).
>>  ellen s.
>>
>>  >Ellen, I haven't read Bourdieu. . .  & I don't know if the following
>>  >applies to his work or not.
>>  >
>>  >But I would be cautious to accept theories which through their
>>  >(a-historical?) universality actually act (within the academy,
>>  >mostly) as new mythologies.
>>  >
>>  >For example to characterize the development of 19th-cent.
>>  >art-for-art's sake as a simple dialectic of the liminal, the
>>  >"feminine", the festive, rising to oppose power, logos, money,
>>  >authority.  Structuralism leads to the myths of deconstruction.
>>  >
>>  >I guess I would want to look at that development within more gradual
>>  >changes in modernity: the weakening of communally-sanctioned
>>  >medieval myths, the rise of Protestantism, capitalism, Renaissance
>>  >individualism, etc.
>>  >
>>  >In a culture in which the imagination has lost the sanction of
>>  >religious authority, the rise of art for art's sake could be seen in
>>  >tandem with the rise of the professional author, not so much in
>>  >contrast with the commercial/masculine world, but as a staking out
>>  >of the imagination as commercial property.
>>  >
>>  >Mallarme's project of the sacred Book as the property of poets
>>  >rather than the Church could be seen in this light.  At the same
>  > >time, Rimbaud, the leading avatar of the bohemian artist, seemed to
>>  >reject both poetry in general and the Satanic pride of the
>>  >unsanctioned artistic imagination by the age of 21 ("Saison en
>>  >Enfer").  That sequence records a moment of primal fright at the
>>  >perspective of limitless imagination.  He immediately flung himself
>>  >into the "vita activa", because the vita contemplativa of aesthetics
>>  >appeared to be a hellish dead-end.
>>  >
>>  >150 years later the role of the poet in culture remains unclear.
>>  >Neither popular success nor subcultural authority nor isolated
>>  >purity provide believable sanctions for what the poet does.  This
>>  >may be a good thing.
>>  >
>>  >The Scythians assigned soothsaying to a group of "feminine" men,
>>  >non-warriors, called "Enarees" (see Herodotus).
>>  >
>>  >- Henaree
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 


From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Sun Nov  3 23:08:45 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 12:08:45 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180
References: <3DBCF882.30586.28D859@localhost><006201c27ec9$ad1d4ca0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6> <uy98idy4t.fsf@hotmail.com><008701c27ecf$06b747c0$6c7dfea9@j1c1k6><013501c28167$9cde3ca0$64864cca@JROSS2><008701c28199$e9ab6b20$a0abfea9@j1c1k6> <uk7jx5c2u.fsf@chrislott.org>
Message-ID: <008e01c283b7$e6448820$6f864cca@JROSS2>

Well -- that certainly piqued my imagination as I sat over my first coffee
of the day ... the image wasn't good ... at all ...

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Lott" <chris at chrislott.org>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 3:23 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry 180


> On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Bob Grumman wrote:
> >
> > Consider the many alternative reasons why Chris's questions and the
> > way he put them might have gotten my knickers in a twist, if you
> > want to assume that about my knickers.
>
> I'm telling you right now, that wasn't me up in your knickers.
>
> c
> --
> Chris Lott <chris at chrislott.org>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Sun Nov  3 23:43:53 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 12:43:53 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1066 - 12 msgs
References: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKMEAFCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com> <00b501c282a1$39258160$85f4fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <017101c283bc$e37a0430$6f864cca@JROSS2>

Or the not so little islands where there is debate, laughter, insight and
intelligence in abundance ...

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1066 - 12 msgs


> Why is it so hard for you guys to realize that the existence of an
> intelligent anthology would NOT force you to leave the little islands you
> are clinging to?
>
> --Bob G.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Crisman Cooley" <ccooley at overdomain.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 9:50 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1066 - 12 msgs
>
>
> > Chris,
> > In the Encyclopedia of Poetry, under "G" for Graphophiliacs, Wien's Law
is
> > one of the favorite entries--revered by the editor  as "beauty^3".  And
> > though I've read the entry =int((7*52+1.25)*5)+121 times--every day,
that
> > is, since it was published; and though I derive (my favorite verb!)
> > exhiliration to the point of crapulence from his inticate combination of
> > verbs (/,*,*,^!); yet I have never figured out what Wien meant by the
> > enigmatic "4" or the breathtaking "3".  Yes, I'm fairly certain the
result
> > is 1.3333, but what are the referents, prior to division?  It is the
> > not-knowing, the ineffable mystery of these Arabic nouns, that brings me
> > back again and again.  Pardon me, I must get to my Encyclopedia.
> >
> > -cc
> >
> >
> > > "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> writes:
> > >
> > > > His narrow choice of a goal is one reason that he is guilty of doing
> > > > what I say he did: fail to indicate the width of contemporary
American
> > > > poetry. I'm not even saying he SHOULD have done that, just that he
> > > > failed to.
> >
> > > From: Chris L <chrisl_ak at hotmail.com>
> >
> > > He is also "guilty" of failing to prove that the volume of a sphere
> > > can be calculated by 4/3*pi*r^3 (or Wien's law regarding wavelength of
> > > radiation emission, which would be more relevant to me at the moment
> > > :).
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Sun Nov  3 23:44:37 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 12:44:37 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of School
References: <200211021906.gA2J6csk029278@mx12.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <017201c283bc$e50d7570$6f864cca@JROSS2>

A-bloody-men!

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 3:07 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of School


> Bob, forgive me, but why is it hard for you to understand that poetic
> "schools" of 12-16 poets in a nation of hundreds of millions of people are
> unlikely ever to be of compelling interest to the majority?  By definition
> the sort of poetry you love most is a tiny minority taste.  No amount of
> exposure or promotion is going to make readers love this stuff much more
> than they already do.  If you can't live with that fact, you could at
least
> consider that you've made your point about it.
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
>
>
> ----------
> >From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1066 - 12 msgs
> >Date: Sat, Nov 2, 2002, 12:54 PM
> >
>
> >Why is it so hard for you guys to realize that the existence of an
> >intelligent anthology would NOT force you to leave the little islands you
> >are clinging to?
> >
> >--Bob G.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Mon Nov  4 00:07:02 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 13:07:02 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Art & $
References: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKMECFCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
Message-ID: <01f101c283c0$0c9c6210$6f864cca@JROSS2>

Yup, you did ...

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Crisman Cooley" <ccooley at overdomain.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 11:28 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Art & $


> Ellen & Henry,
> To elaborate on two notions of "mythology" and their intersection with
art:
> First as a theory in the academy (example: Structuralism), second as a way
> that a whole society interprets phenomena of life, death, God(s), origin,
> immortality, etc.
>
> The first use of Mythology is ironic, if I'm interpreting Henry correctly,
> meaning that some theories are so successful they become confused in the
> minds of their advocates with Truth, or (in the absence of Truth) a
Polemic
> that gives its advocate the appearance of being Right.  Seems we can use
> Structuralism as a tool for textual criticism, and when we're done we can
> set it down among all the other tools for making sense of a confusing
world.
> And if binaries are too pesky, we need not discard them, but give them a
> middle ground.  If someone believes the world is Black or White
(indicating
> the Absence or Presence of light), then this view can be made more
> interesting by saying it is Black AND White to Some Degree.  This
> introduction of fuzzy logic (or at least a Qualitative version of it
useful
> in artistic discourse) could then account for the phenomenon of color, for
> example.
>
> In the second use of Mythology, as a society's interpretive lens onto a
> chaotic world, I believe the problem is not too many Mythologies, but too
> few.  You might even say that the quandry of modern art (as a reflection
of
> modern life) is precisely the lack of Given interpretive models.  Think,
for
> example, of _Waiting for Godot_ or Kafka's _Castle_ as examples of No
> Mythology.  Where the only belief left is that there is some Authority who
> does understand what is happening and that will eventually (we can only
> hope) let us in on the secret.  The Romantic return to Greek mythology (a
> continuation, p'raps, of the renaissance trend) may be another response to
> what Henry called the lost sanction of religious authority.  But use of
> Greek myth today (as Color, or whatever) seems to me Quaint and Irrelevant
> as relying on the mythology-to-end-all-mythologies, the Christ myth.  But
> now I've probably said too much.
>
> --Cc
>
>
>
> > Henry:  I'm holding onto this until I can think about it more.  I
> > especially agree with your call to attend to the gradual shifts and
> > to avoid the simplicity of binaries.  This latter raises the spectre
> > of Derrida.  Or at least Hegel.  And I'd love to hear what others
> > have to say about your post here.  For my part, I need to let this
> > sink in for a while.  If you have the energy any time, I'd like to
> > hear more about what you mean by "Structuralism leads to the myths of
> > deconstruction" and what you are imagining myth to be opposed to
> > (there are those pesky binaries again!).
> > ellen s.
> >
> > >Ellen, I haven't read Bourdieu. . .  & I don't know if the following
> > >applies to his work or not.
> > >
> > >But I would be cautious to accept theories which through their
> > >(a-historical?) universality actually act (within the academy,
> > >mostly) as new mythologies.
> > >
> > >For example to characterize the development of 19th-cent.
> > >art-for-art's sake as a simple dialectic of the liminal, the
> > >"feminine", the festive, rising to oppose power, logos, money,
> > >authority.  Structuralism leads to the myths of deconstruction.
> > >
> > >I guess I would want to look at that development within more gradual
> > >changes in modernity: the weakening of communally-sanctioned
> > >medieval myths, the rise of Protestantism, capitalism, Renaissance
> > >individualism, etc.
> > >
> > >In a culture in which the imagination has lost the sanction of
> > >religious authority, the rise of art for art's sake could be seen in
> > >tandem with the rise of the professional author, not so much in
> > >contrast with the commercial/masculine world, but as a staking out
> > >of the imagination as commercial property.
> > >
> > >Mallarme's project of the sacred Book as the property of poets
> > >rather than the Church could be seen in this light.  At the same
> > >time, Rimbaud, the leading avatar of the bohemian artist, seemed to
> > >reject both poetry in general and the Satanic pride of the
> > >unsanctioned artistic imagination by the age of 21 ("Saison en
> > >Enfer").  That sequence records a moment of primal fright at the
> > >perspective of limitless imagination.  He immediately flung himself
> > >into the "vita activa", because the vita contemplativa of aesthetics
> > >appeared to be a hellish dead-end.
> > >
> > >150 years later the role of the poet in culture remains unclear.
> > >Neither popular success nor subcultural authority nor isolated
> > >purity provide believable sanctions for what the poet does.  This
> > >may be a good thing.
> > >
> > >The Scythians assigned soothsaying to a group of "feminine" men,
> > >non-warriors, called "Enarees" (see Herodotus).
> > >
> > >- Henaree
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Nov  4 05:41:17 2002
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 05:41:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Of late on the Blog
In-Reply-To: <20021104051001.BDEC4103F2@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <000601c283ee$b6370770$5206c143@Dell>

David Bromige's path to language

Barbara Guest & the abstract lyric

The role of critical writing within langpo

Louis Cabri, Tom Orange & Kevin Davies 
on the Canadian poetry / New York School question

Influencing the dead: 
the impact of Brian Kim Stefans & Araki Yasusada on Jack Spicer

The problem of time in literary formations: 
Spicer's view of poetry in 1958 vs.1965

Poetic prose: a map of the subgenres

Canadian poetry = New American Poetry minus the NY School. Why?

The quotidian in poetry - it's not adjunct to the work

Narrative Drive: what is it?



http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/








From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Nov  4 06:02:56 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 06:02:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of School
References: <200211021906.gA2J6csk029278@mx12.mx.voyager.net> <017201c283bc$e50d7570$6f864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <002a01c283f1$bbaf9ac0$3bbcfea9@j1c1k6>

Not sure which of your multitude of little buttons I've pushed this time,
Zan, but if it's the old horror of sexist word-usage, you should know that
"guys" is commonly used in the US to mean "people."

---Bob G.

----- Original Message -----
From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Out of School


> A-bloody-men!
>
> Zan
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 3:07 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of School
>
>
> > Bob, forgive me, but why is it hard for you to understand that poetic
> > "schools" of 12-16 poets in a nation of hundreds of millions of people
are
> > unlikely ever to be of compelling interest to the majority?  By
definition
> > the sort of poetry you love most is a tiny minority taste.  No amount of
> > exposure or promotion is going to make readers love this stuff much more
> > than they already do.  If you can't live with that fact, you could at
> least
> > consider that you've made your point about it.
> >
> > ========================================
> > David Graham
> > Professor of English, Ripon College
> > grahamd at ripon.edu
> >    Home Page:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >    Poetry Library:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >
> > "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> > undergraduate education."
> >    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> > =======================================
> >
> >
> > ----------
> > >From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> > >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1066 - 12 msgs
> > >Date: Sat, Nov 2, 2002, 12:54 PM
> > >
> >
> > >Why is it so hard for you guys to realize that the existence of an
> > >intelligent anthology would NOT force you to leave the little islands
you
> > >are clinging to?
> > >
> > >--Bob G.
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Mon Nov  4 10:12:11 2002
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry_Gould at brown.edu)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 10:12:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & $
Message-ID: <200211041512.gA4FCBm18844@perseus.services.brown.edu>

Ellen & Cris,

By "myth" in this discussion I mean a philosophical concept which gets applied sort of like a grid to historical phenomena.  These monumental explanations of everything can be thrilling, but they also oversimplify.  Like the idea that art for art's sake arose as a liminal development of the "feminine" in contrast to the "masculine" logos-powers.  I tried to suggest that Symbolist poetry in the latter 19th-century could be seen as an entrepreneurial effort to stake out imaginatiuve territory no longer sanctioned by religious belief & authority.  Rimbaud's reaction, his rejection of art, stands in sharp contrast to this development.  But Mallarme's devotion to the numinous Text could also be understood as "medieval" in its own way.

Rimbaud's dilemma - the issue of the narcissim & solipsism of the artist, the problem of the unsanctioned imagination - hasn't really gone away.  The dead-end Rimbaud feared could be seen as played out in US poetics - a mainstream of talkative, ingratiating, storytelling egoists; a NY School whose aesthetics is grounded in a playful refusal to "say" (represent) anything; a Language school based on a mystification of Textuality (& a serious jealousy of the NY School); an Olsonian school of determined Primitivist mythographers...

Henry




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Nov  4 12:14:06 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 11:14:06 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Perfect Audience: If A Tree Falls In The
	Forest...
In-Reply-To: <155.16e7a190.2af6ce27@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B9EC06FE.39E7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 11/3/02 1:08 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> 
> 
> I'm a great fan of her [Iris Murdoch], but I haven't read any of her books. I
> just don't have the time.
> 
> Kate Winslet
>   --The Daily Telegraph 15/01/02
> 
> *********************************
> 
> To remove yourself from the Daily Philosophical Quotation list, go here:
> http://www.philosophers.co.uk/quotations/quoteaday_remove.htm
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
As Pinnochio says in the Disney film, "I don't have to go to school; I'm
going to be an actor."

Or something like that.

Paul Lake



From mandolin at mac.com  Mon Nov  4 12:35:10 2002
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 09:35:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bourdieu on the side
Message-ID: <6997050.1036431310845.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

Not really about poetry, but since the name came up about a week ago....

In an article ("Nobel by association: beautiful mind, non-existent prize")on how the Central Bank of Sweden created a quasi-Nobel Prize for economics, Yves Gingras writes:

"Now that we understand why a bizarre name [The Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel] was chosen, transforming a peculiar social alchemy into a ?Nobel prize?, let us look at the ?flow of capital? the whole process involved. The Bank started with economic capital and ?invested? it in the Nobel Foundation to transform it into symbolic capital as fast as possible. Even a very large amount of cash is not sufficient in itself to assure the prestige of a prize. The key point was to effect a complete transfer of the already accumulated symbolic capital of the Nobel prizes to the new Economic Prize instituted by the Bank. Any other strategy would have been more risky given the difficulty, uncertainty and time lag attending any primitive accumulation of symbolic capital. In other words, this history makes visible the well-managed transformation of economic into symbolic capital, thus confirming Bourdieu?s theory of the convertibility of the basic kinds of capital (economic, social, cultural and symbolic)."

The whole article is here:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/forum/document_details.asp?CatID=125&DocID=1944&DebateID=233


From TerryP17 at aol.com  Mon Nov  4 13:39:28 2002
From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 13:39:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Liberating Libretti
Message-ID: <1FABF41E.76F94EB0.0083014E@aol.com>

Robin wrote:

<<The odd thing is that Gioia doesn't seem to have bloody READ (or even heard)
the Auden (or Auden/Kallman) libretti -- he doesn't rip the libretti, he
rips "The Witnesses".  This may entirely be due to that before Mendelson
started cranking out the Auden Collected, it was really quite difficult to
get a printed copy of an Auden (/Kallman) libretto.  Somewhere, I have a
first-edition of _The Bassarids_, but that was an exception.>>

"Seem" is a good word. We use it here in DC when we lack proof for something but still want to make an allegation against an opponent in time for the evening TV news. Gioia is well-familiar with the standard, and occasionally nonstandard opera repertoire, particularly in Italian. We have discussed this stuff endlessly. He is also extensively familiar with Auden's poetry as well as his efforts for the opera. People can call Gioia any name they want, but he is well-read.

<<I still have to hear any pertinent comment on _Nosferatu_.  Everyone and
their sister demonstrating just how much more than me they know about
libretti is obviously disturbing, but really not to the point.>>

When one's sole criticism of the libretto to "Nosferatu" is EEEEK!, such demonstrations of knowledge from others are indeed to the point. And thus valid. They are an invitation to a response, which you now have made.

For non-opera fans, libretti are a curious sub-genre of literature. They are "books," to use the term most often associated with American musicals, and they are meant to provide a plot and a context for the opera and characters in a musical genre that is essentially reductive. They are service works, not primary works.

As "books," a great many libretti are absurd from the standpoint of plot. Perhaps one of the worst is the libretto to Mozart's "Magic Flute" which is nothing more than a sequence of Masonic rituals. But it gives Mozart some good words to hang the notes on, and most auditors today are happy to hear Mozart's music and not worry too much about the silly plot and words.

A libretto actually reduces a much larger and more complex story into a short series of critical tableaux focusing on the dramatic high points of the story, such as that story may be. Each scene, which, in a conventional opera, climaxes in an aria, duet, whatever, is connected to the others by means of bridging passages, or recitatifs. Thus, each libretto contains some narrative connective tissue that gets us from scene to scene, and then the juicy bits, the party pieces or arias (or duets, etc.) that give the singer a chance to strut his or her stuff.

A libretto, ultimately, unlike a novel or a collection of poems, is prose or poetry in service to musical theater. It can be written in prose or poetry or a combination of both, as I am sure that most readers here are aware. But even in a prose libretto, many arias or ensembles break into poetic lines which are/were easier to write memorable music to, at least until Schoenberg reared his head in the musical firmament. However, and this is a critical point, libretti, particularly where arias are concerned, are meant to be sung, and often commit some sacrifices to achieve singability. To aid the composer and the singers, you must compose prose or poetry that provides singable lines--i.e., ones where you can get breaths in at the right place--as well as lines rich in big vowel sounds that singers can use to produce big, rich notes. Italian is still often preferred as an operatic language because it provides so many nice, fat vowels, but English isn't as devoid of them as one might think, critics to the contrary.

Gioia's libretto takes a pretty compelling story, gives it (perhaps surprisingly) a feminist twist, and provides plenty of good, singable lines with lots of good vowel sounds. The libretto is primarily iambic, is quite strongly metrical in its arias and ensembles, less so in the recitatifs. This makes it easier to write music to. Its language is colorful and romantic, if occasionally conventional, but this is in keeping with opera's classic male/female romantic tendencies as well as the necessity to simplify an idea into a compact, melodic unit. 

As with Boito's great libretti for Verdi, Gioia's libretto is also poetry in service to the singer (although Italians would probably, and quite rightly, not allow me to equate Gioia with Boito). The libretto advances plot and action, delineates character, and contains enough imagistic cues to enable plenty of orchestral embellishments and/or musical motifs by the composer. It, like every other libretto, will never win a Pulitzer. But it is serviceable, actually quite good for what it is. It can be sung and composed to with ease.

No libretto will ever be on a must-read list of poetry, I think, because the poet/writer must subordinate his or her art to the art of the composer who traditionally gets top billing. But Gioia's libretto is functional, imaginative, knows what both singers and composers need, and delivers the goods. In that, it is successful. It is aware of what it needs to do and does it. However, like many of the libretti I mentioned last time, it is not likely to end up on many individual library bookshelves. 

<<Oh jezus, just to gain a little street-cred here, I wrote the libretto to
_The Rose-Garden_, music by the Australian composer Anne Boyd, performed at
the Opening Festival Season of the Sidney Opera House Annex, and with the
text and score published by Faber (Music) Ltd., so I'm not ENTIRELY
dumb-bunny when it comes to this.>>

Congratulations--although I have no point of comparison, being neither familiar with your libretto nor Ms. Boyd's music. But obviously, you, like Gioia, appear to have had at least a concert version of your work performed before an audience. Unfortunately, for you and for Gioia, it is nearly impossible to gain backing for a major, full-dress production of a new opera these days unless one also can get the production peddled to several other opera houses as a package--a tough sell. Backers/producers today prefer to do a revival of "Oklahoma" or "La Boheme," or run "Cats" or "Les Miz" forever with guaranteed box office rather than take a chance on someting new. It has probably been ever thus, but is even worse in these days of high production costs.

Wagner had the right idea. Write your own libretto. Compose your own music. Build your own opera house. And conduct your own orchestra. A good way to make sure things happen.

Meanwhile, good luck to you and Ms. Boyd.

--Terry Ponick  

From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Mon Nov  4 14:29:05 2002
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 19:29:05 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Liberating Libretti
References: <1FABF41E.76F94EB0.0083014E@aol.com>
Message-ID: <028d01c28438$b16f6da0$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com>

Terry:

> "Seem" is a good word. We use it here in DC when we lack proof for
something but still want to make an allegation against an opponent in time
for the evening TV news.

You're right, and given what Gioia is documented to know about Auden, and
music, as well as your personal knowledge, uncalled-for.  What I should have
said was that such knowledge doesn't to me appear in the aria that Gioa
choses to showcase from his homepage.  (Which would also show I don't know
the +whole+ opera, so my comments were further injudicious.)

<<
Gioia is well-familiar with the standard, and occasionally nonstandard opera
repertoire, particularly in Italian. We have discussed this stuff endlessly.
He is also extensively familiar with Auden's poetry as well as his efforts
for the opera. People can call Gioia any name they want, but he is
well-read.
>>

>
> <<I still have to hear any pertinent comment on _Nosferatu_.
<SNIP>

My fault -- this came out a a separate discussion of Gioia on ALSC, turning
partly on the NFA post and partly on Auden's influence on Gioia.  I'd gone
back to look again at Gioia, and +still+ found myself feeling that the poems
were ... too Auden.

To quote myself from there:

"
This would (for me) apply generally, but as a specific example, there's the
bit in "The Next Poem":

No jumble box of imagery
dumped glumly in the reader's lap
or elegantly packaged junk
the unsuspecting must unwrap.

... against Auden:

Jumbled in one common box
Of their dark stupidity,
Orchid, swan, and Caesar lie;
Time that tires of everyone
Has corroded all the locks,
Thrown away the key for fun.

Not just Gioia picking up "jumbled/box", but the rhythms ...  OK, Gioa is
basically iambic, Auden is basically trochaic, but over-riding that is the
pounding four-stess line that Auden made so much his own.  And put them
together, Auden simply does it oh-so-much better.
"

Then I went back to look further, and encountered Nosferatu for the first
time, and continued in a later post:

"
I've just had a look at a bit of Gioia's _Nosferatu_ libretto:

http://www.danagioia.net/books/poetry/nos.htm

Nosferatu's Serenade
(aria from Act II of Nosferatu)

I am the image that darkens your glass,
The shadow that falls wherever you pass.
I am the dream you cannot forget,
The face you remember without having met.

<SNIP>

(See, for example, Auden's "The Witnesses", section 3, passim, but perhaps
especially:

You are the town, and we are the clock,
We are the guardians of the gate of the rock,
            the Two;
On your left, and on your right
In the day, and in the night
            we are watching you.

... actually, that's perhaps not the best stanza to pick, but the minute I
read the Gioia lines, I leapt for my Auden.  Admittedly, it took me about
ten minutes to trace the Auden lines that Gioia had immediately conjured up,
but that's because for some reason I thought Auden's poem was called "The
Two".)
"

... all of which somehow got condensed down to EEEK!!! on new-poetry

<<
He is also extensively familiar with Auden's poetry as well as his efforts
for the opera. People can call Gioia any name they want, but he is
well-read.
>>

I think this is almost the problem -- he's perhaps +too+ well-read in Auden,
too steeped in him from an early age.  I read Gioia's essays on Auden and
James Fenton (the later an excellent essay on a poet Gioia also admires, and
whose early encounters with Auden were similar to Gioio's), and it struck me
that Fenton (in a way that for me, Gioia doesn't) manages to break his voice
free from Auden.  See, for a succinct example, Fenton's "The Skip", which
Gioia quotes and comments on in his essay on Fenton.  I pick this partly
because it's (for me) the closest that Fenton comes to Auden.  But even then
...

> When one's sole criticism of the libretto to "Nosferatu" is EEEEK!, such
demonstrations of knowledge from others are indeed to the point. And thus
valid. They are an invitation to a response, which you now have made.

On your comments on libretti generally, I take your point, but crucially:

>A libretto, ultimately, unlike a novel or a collection of poems, is prose
or poetry in service to musical theater.

Aye, there's the rub -- librettists are generally considered lower than the
ladies who tidy the stalls after the performance.  Which if you're writing a
libretto ...

> Gioia's libretto takes a pretty compelling story, gives it (perhaps
surprisingly) a feminist twist, and provides plenty of good, singable lines
with lots of good vowel sounds. The libretto is primarily iambic, is quite
strongly metrical in its arias and ensembles, less so in the recitatifs.
This makes it easier to write music to. Its language is colorful and
romantic, if occasionally conventional, but this is in keeping with opera's
classic male/female romantic tendencies as well as the necessity to simplify
an idea into a compact, melodic unit.

Which goes to suggest that I should read the whole thing before I
pontificate any more <g>.

> Congratulations--although I have no point of comparison, being neither
familiar with your libretto nor Ms. Boyd's music.
<SNIP>

> Wagner had the right idea. Write your own libretto. Compose your own
music. Build your own opera house. And conduct your own orchestra. A good
way to make sure things happen.
>
> Meanwhile, good luck to you and Ms. Boyd.

Oh, this was a time ago, early seventies.  Ms Boyd and I were both students
at York.  She and I were both doing PhDs, hers in Music Composition, mine in
English.  Act I was premiered at York, and ...  Anyway, the end result of
+that+ was that I took up smoking after a three-month break.  It wasn't the
performance itself, it was the reaction of the claque afterwards.

Then, a couple of years later I was walking down Sauchiehall Street in
Glasgow when a friend came up and said, "Congratualtions."  On what? I
naturally said.  "On The Rose Garden being produced at Sidney."  Well, it
would have been nice to have been told.

At the point when I discovered Anne intended to publish the piece with no
acknowledgement to me whatsoever, I went mildly ballistic, and wrote a
somewhat snappy letter to Faber(Music) pointing out that I owned the rights
to the libretto, and if they didn't include my name ...  So if you ever see
a copy, you'll find my name overtyped in tiny letters above the libretto.

Anne Boyd went on to become an eminently succesful musician, and Professor
of Music at Sydney.  Whereas I ...

<sigh>.  Not a fortunate experience, and it somewhat colours my existential
attitude in this area.

But thanks for pulling me up on Nosferatu -- I was out of order there.

Cheers,

Robin



From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Nov  4 17:02:35 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:02:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Wayne Koestenbaum, "I'm Not in *Darling*"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEJHFMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I'm Not in *Darling*

Bette Davis has no reason to be jealous of Michelangelo Antonioni
and yet when I slept over at her house, in the late nineteen-seventies,
she kept me up all night complaining about a formerly illustrious career.
How her words came out is more important than the words themselves.

"I'm not in *Zabriskie Point*. I'm not in *Blow-Up*.
I'm not in *L'Avventura*. I'm not in *Isadora*.
I'm not in *Georgy Girl*. I'm not in *Woodstock*.
I'm not in any great sixties epics.

"I'm not in *Darling*. I'm not in *Midnight Cowboy*.
I'm not in *Easy Rider*. I'm not in *Valley of the Dolls*.
Why didn't they give me the Garland/Hayward role
in *Valley*? Why didn't they film *The Love Machine* starring me?

"Why didn't they film *Every Night, Josephine!* starring me?
Why didn't they remake *I'll Cry Tomorrow* starring me?
Or redo *Mata Hari*? I'm a limitless god, like Apollo,
but certainly I'd have done remakes in my dotage.

"I'm not in *Morgan*. I'm not in *8 1/2*.
Ignorant armies crash my party.
I'm the haunted Bette always in your thoughts.
I'd have done any part, had they asked. Had they asked."

And then I woke, and discovered myself in the act of speaking, slowly,
	methodically;
and from the cup of tea, ambiguous steam-clouds, like locusts, were issuing,
in which I could read the pattern of my future,
a wilderness stretching farther than the exiled eye could see.

--Wayne Koestenbaum

fr. *Rhapsodies of a Repeat Offender*
[New York: Persea Books, 1994]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From Rabanna at aol.com  Mon Nov  4 18:14:13 2002
From: Rabanna at aol.com (Rabanna at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 18:14:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anna Rabinowitz reading from Darkling
Message-ID: <127.19e2d1ab.2af85945@aol.com>

 FOR THOSE OF YOU IN OR NEAR SEATTLE OR LAS VEGAS:


    IN SEATTLE                                              IN LAS VEGAS

 Thurs., November 14 at 7:30 p.m.                       Wed., November 20th 
at 8 p.m.
 
Anna Rabinowitz will be reading from                Anna Rabinowitz will be 
reading from

        DARKLING                                            DARKLING

OPEN BOOKS                                      UNLV CAMPUS   BEAM HALL 242
2414 N. 45th St.
Seattle, WA 98103

Both readings are free. Come one, come all....


From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Nov  5 08:35:10 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 08:35:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: William Carlos Williams, "Election Day"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEKCFMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Election Day

Warm sun, quiet air
an old man sits

in the doorway of
a broken house--

boards for windows
plaster falling

from between the stones
and strokes the head

of a spotted dog.

--William Carlos Williams

fr. *The Collected Poems of William
Carlos Williams: Vol. II, 1939-1962*


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov  5 09:03:43 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:03:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bio-Optic Organized Knowledge device
Message-ID: <44.28db45c0.2af929bf@aol.com>

 Subject: Latest device to replace Electronic
Media
>
> Bio-Optic Organized Knowledge device
>
> Introducing the new Bio-Optic Organized
Knowledge device, trade named BOOK.
>
> BOOK is a revolutionary breakthrough in
technology: no wires, no
> electric circuits, no batteries, nothing to be
connected or switched on.
> It's so easy to use, even a child can operate
it.
>
> Compact and portable, it can be used anywhere --
even sitting in an
> armchair by the fire -- yet it is powerful
enough to hold as much
> information as a CD-ROM disc. Here's how it
works: BOOK is   constructed
> of sequentially numbered sheets of paper
(recyclable),   each capable of
> holding thousands of bits of information.
>
> The pages are locked together with a custom-fit
device called a
> binder which keeps the sheets in their correct
sequence. Opaque    Paper
> Technology (OPT) allows manufacturers to use
both sides of    the sheet,
> doubling the information density and cutting
costs. Experts    are
> divided on the prospects for further increases
in information    density; for
> now, BOOKS with more information simply use more
pages.
>
> Each sheet is scanned optically, registering
information directly into
> your brain. A flick of the finger takes you to
the next sheet.
>
> BOOK may be taken up at any time and used merely
by opening it.    BOOK
> never crashes or requires rebooting, though like
other display    devices
> it can become unusable if exposed to high
ambient    temperatures. The
> "browse" feature allows you to move instantly to
any sheet, and move
> forward or backward as you wish. Many come
with an "index" feature,
> which pinpoints the exact location of any
selected information for
> instant retrieval.
>
> BOOK can be stored for an almost unlimited
amount of time without
> connecting any outside power source. Many BOOK
units may be    stored
> together as they cause no interference with one
another, even    when
> placed in close proximity.
>
> An optional "BOOKmark" accessory allows you to
open BOOK to the
> exact place you left it in a previous session --
even if the BOOK has
> been closed.
>
> BOOKmarks fit universal design standards; thus,
a single BOOKmark
> can be used in BOOKs by various manufacturers.
Conversely,    numerous
> BOOK markers can be used in a single BOOK if the
user    wants to store
> numerous views at once. The number is limited
only by    the number of pages in
> the BOOK. You can also make personal    notes
next to BOOK text entries with
> an optional programming tool,    the Portable
Erasable Nib Cryptic
> Intercommunication Language    Stylus (PENCILS).
>
> Portable, durable, and affordable, BOOK is being
hailed as a
> precursor of a new entertainment wave. Also,
BOOK's appeal seems   so
> certain that thousands of content creators have
committed to the
> platform and investors are reportedly flocking.
Look for a flood of   new titles
> soon.
>
> Try it, you'll like it!


From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Nov  5 09:16:12 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 09:16:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bio-Optic Organized Knowledge device
In-Reply-To: <44.28db45c0.2af929bf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DC78C5C.15175.61C988@localhost>

Isaac Asimov gave a speech in the 60s in which he used this very 
joke.

Marcus



On 5 Nov 2002 at 9:03, JforJames at aol.com wrote:

>  Subject: Latest device to replace Electronic
> Media
> >
> > Bio-Optic Organized Knowledge device
> >
> > Introducing the new Bio-Optic Organized
> Knowledge device, trade named BOOK.
> >
> > BOOK is a revolutionary breakthrough in
> technology: no wires, no
> > electric circuits, no batteries, nothing to be
> connected or switched on.
> > It's so easy to use, even a child can operate
> it.
> >
> > Compact and portable, it can be used anywhere --
> even sitting in an
> > armchair by the fire -- yet it is powerful
> enough to hold as much
> > information as a CD-ROM disc. Here's how it
> works: BOOK is   constructed
> > of sequentially numbered sheets of paper
> (recyclable),   each capable of
> > holding thousands of bits of information.
> >
> > The pages are locked together with a custom-fit
> device called a
> > binder which keeps the sheets in their correct
> sequence. Opaque    Paper
> > Technology (OPT) allows manufacturers to use
> both sides of    the sheet,
> > doubling the information density and cutting
> costs. Experts    are
> > divided on the prospects for further increases
> in information    density; for
> > now, BOOKS with more information simply use more
> pages.
> >
> > Each sheet is scanned optically, registering
> information directly into
> > your brain. A flick of the finger takes you to
> the next sheet.
> >
> > BOOK may be taken up at any time and used merely
> by opening it.    BOOK
> > never crashes or requires rebooting, though like
> other display    devices
> > it can become unusable if exposed to high
> ambient    temperatures. The
> > "browse" feature allows you to move instantly to
> any sheet, and move
> > forward or backward as you wish. Many come
> with an "index" feature,
> > which pinpoints the exact location of any
> selected information for
> > instant retrieval.
> >
> > BOOK can be stored for an almost unlimited
> amount of time without
> > connecting any outside power source. Many BOOK
> units may be    stored
> > together as they cause no interference with one
> another, even    when
> > placed in close proximity.
> >
> > An optional "BOOKmark" accessory allows you to
> open BOOK to the
> > exact place you left it in a previous session --
> even if the BOOK has
> > been closed.
> >
> > BOOKmarks fit universal design standards; thus,
> a single BOOKmark
> > can be used in BOOKs by various manufacturers.
> Conversely,    numerous
> > BOOK markers can be used in a single BOOK if the
> user    wants to store
> > numerous views at once. The number is limited
> only by    the number of pages in
> > the BOOK. You can also make personal    notes
> next to BOOK text entries with
> > an optional programming tool,    the Portable
> Erasable Nib Cryptic
> > Intercommunication Language    Stylus (PENCILS).
> >
> > Portable, durable, and affordable, BOOK is being
> hailed as a
> > precursor of a new entertainment wave. Also,
> BOOK's appeal seems   so
> > certain that thousands of content creators have
> committed to the
> > platform and investors are reportedly flocking.
> Look for a flood of   new titles
> > soon.
> >
> > Try it, you'll like it!
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From ccooley at overdomain.com  Tue Nov  5 14:37:23 2002
From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:37:23 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] various thanks
In-Reply-To: <20021101124102.93211103B6@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKGECPCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

Zan, a belated thanks.  Like you, I like inclusion.  

> Yes indeed!  You succinctly put what I have been trying to say clearly to
> Bob for ages.  AND it's much more inclusive than exclusive a way 
> at looking at work.

> Zan

Ellen, thanks for your encouragement. 

Ellen said: 
> I don't think you've said "too much," c.c.  Thank you.
> ellen s.


Zan, You should have coffee some time with my inner critic.  

Zan said: 
> Yup, you did ...
> 
> Zan



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Wed Nov  6 01:43:07 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:43:07 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of School
References: <200211021906.gA2J6csk029278@mx12.mx.voyager.net> <017201c283bc$e50d7570$6f864cca@JROSS2> <002a01c283f1$bbaf9ac0$3bbcfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <002501c2855f$c6b54130$73864cca@JROSS2>

I know -- I lived there for the first thirty years of my life ... mostly in
the South, but I had time in New Jersey and Rhode Island, so I know this.

As to buttons, I don't have to reach far to push your teeny, tiny one.

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Out of School


> Not sure which of your multitude of little buttons I've pushed this time,
> Zan, but if it's the old horror of sexist word-usage, you should know that
> "guys" is commonly used in the US to mean "people."
>
> ---Bob G.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 11:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Out of School
>
>
> > A-bloody-men!
> >
> > Zan
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 3:07 AM
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Out of School
> >
> >
> > > Bob, forgive me, but why is it hard for you to understand that poetic
> > > "schools" of 12-16 poets in a nation of hundreds of millions of people
> are
> > > unlikely ever to be of compelling interest to the majority?  By
> definition
> > > the sort of poetry you love most is a tiny minority taste.  No amount
of
> > > exposure or promotion is going to make readers love this stuff much
more
> > > than they already do.  If you can't live with that fact, you could at
> > least
> > > consider that you've made your point about it.
> > >
> > > ========================================
> > > David Graham
> > > Professor of English, Ripon College
> > > grahamd at ripon.edu
> > >    Home Page:
> > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> > >    Poetry Library:
> > > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> > >
> > > "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> > > undergraduate education."
> > >    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> > > =======================================
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > >From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> > > >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1066 - 12
msgs
> > > >Date: Sat, Nov 2, 2002, 12:54 PM
> > > >
> > >
> > > >Why is it so hard for you guys to realize that the existence of an
> > > >intelligent anthology would NOT force you to leave the little islands
> you
> > > >are clinging to?
> > > >
> > > >--Bob G.
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Wed Nov  6 01:54:12 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 14:54:12 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & $
References: <200211041512.gA4FCBm18844@perseus.services.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <003901c28561$534d9330$73864cca@JROSS2>

Thanks for that, Henry.  Some of what I couldn't articulate myself, AND I
would like to say that there are other, deeper readings of any mythology
world/time/culture-wise that can be thrilling in their intricacies.

I do, however, contest your ... analysis of L*A*N*G*U*A*G*E poetry, both in
saying that it is a "mystification" and that it was/is movement "jealous" of
the NY School "which refused to say anything".  Does this pop out of your
head, or have you heard someone else describe them thus?

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: <Henry_Gould at brown.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [New-Poetry] art & $


> Ellen & Cris,
>
> By "myth" in this discussion I mean a philosophical concept which gets
applied sort of like a grid to historical phenomena.  These monumental
explanations of everything can be thrilling, but they also oversimplify.
Like the idea that art for art's sake arose as a liminal development of the
"feminine" in contrast to the "masculine" logos-powers.  I tried to suggest
that Symbolist poetry in the latter 19th-century could be seen as an
entrepreneurial effort to stake out imaginatiuve territory no longer
sanctioned by religious belief & authority.  Rimbaud's reaction, his
rejection of art, stands in sharp contrast to this development.  But
Mallarme's devotion to the numinous Text could also be understood as
"medieval" in its own way.
>
> Rimbaud's dilemma - the issue of the narcissim & solipsism of the artist,
the problem of the unsanctioned imagination - hasn't really gone away.  The
dead-end Rimbaud feared could be seen as played out in US poetics - a
mainstream of talkative, ingratiating, storytelling egoists; a NY School
whose aesthetics is grounded in a playful refusal to "say" (represent)
anything; a Language school based on a mystification of Textuality (& a
serious jealousy of the NY School); an Olsonian school of determined
Primitivist mythographers...
>
> Henry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Wed Nov  6 03:08:37 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:08:37 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Wayne Koestenbaum, "I'm Not in *Darling*"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEJHFMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00c901c2856d$a5036db0$73864cca@JROSS2>

Gorgeous!  Another book I absolutely must have!

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 6:02 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Wayne Koestenbaum, "I'm Not in
*Darling*"


>
> I'm Not in *Darling*
>
> Bette Davis has no reason to be jealous of Michelangelo Antonioni
> and yet when I slept over at her house, in the late nineteen-seventies,
> she kept me up all night complaining about a formerly illustrious career.
> How her words came out is more important than the words themselves.
>
> "I'm not in *Zabriskie Point*. I'm not in *Blow-Up*.
> I'm not in *L'Avventura*. I'm not in *Isadora*.
> I'm not in *Georgy Girl*. I'm not in *Woodstock*.
> I'm not in any great sixties epics.
>
> "I'm not in *Darling*. I'm not in *Midnight Cowboy*.
> I'm not in *Easy Rider*. I'm not in *Valley of the Dolls*.
> Why didn't they give me the Garland/Hayward role
> in *Valley*? Why didn't they film *The Love Machine* starring me?
>
> "Why didn't they film *Every Night, Josephine!* starring me?
> Why didn't they remake *I'll Cry Tomorrow* starring me?
> Or redo *Mata Hari*? I'm a limitless god, like Apollo,
> but certainly I'd have done remakes in my dotage.
>
> "I'm not in *Morgan*. I'm not in *8 1/2*.
> Ignorant armies crash my party.
> I'm the haunted Bette always in your thoughts.
> I'd have done any part, had they asked. Had they asked."
>
> And then I woke, and discovered myself in the act of speaking, slowly,
> methodically;
> and from the cup of tea, ambiguous steam-clouds, like locusts, were
issuing,
> in which I could read the pattern of my future,
> a wilderness stretching farther than the exiled eye could see.
>
> --Wayne Koestenbaum
>
> fr. *Rhapsodies of a Repeat Offender*
> [New York: Persea Books, 1994]
>
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Wed Nov  6 08:19:01 2002
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 08:19:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & $
In-Reply-To: <003901c28561$534d9330$73864cca@JROSS2>
References: <200211041512.gA4FCBm18844@perseus.services.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021106074524.00aa7bb0@postoffice.brown.edu>

I heard it on the radio the other day, & thoughtlessly passed it on.
No, just kidding.

Back in the last century we heard a lot about the "materiality" of 
language.  Undoubtedly in words and letters there is an inherent force or 
solidity of enunciation.  Medieval authors like Isidore of Seville went on 
at subtle length about the meanings of the letters "I", "l", etc.  Isidore 
differed from the l-pos in asserting that this materiality of the written 
word could be interpreted as oriented in some direction, shaped.  For the 
language poets the materiality of language is oriented only toward 
"itself", if anything.  This "itness" was applied primarily to question and 
deconstruct cliches and cultural assumptions - it acted as a 
solvent.  That's the general thrust of the l-po's critical project, as I 
understand it.

Basically I have a different sense of poetry language, which I haven't 
hesitated to reiterate over the years on various lists, and have gotten a 
lot of flak for it.  My criticism of Langpo has been called sour grapes, 
ego tripping, "langpo-bashing", etc.  Be that as it may, the principle is 
that I think while there is a "materiality" of language, and many 
fascinating subtexts of the "letter" - which poets through the ages have 
had much play with, in puns and anagrammatic flourishes - I think that 
substrate of language is always oriented in some direction or 
directions.  As Mandelstam wrote, "the Word is Psyche".  & I think the 
19th-cent. philologist Humboldt was correct in arguing that the primary 
building-block of speech is not the word, but the sentence.  A sentence is 
a logical construct.  A word, by means of reference, also displays 
a  simple logic ("this means that") - but the langpos tended to deny or at 
least de-prioritize the referential function.

NY School poets also deprioritized the referential - but in the larger 
context of a neo-romantic, lyrical concept of the poet's role, which 
allowed for much humor, sentiment, and slanted social commentary.  It was 
this relaxed, more engaging sense of poetry, displayed by the NY Schoolers, 
which inspired the l-pos admiration (a la C. Bernstein) and jealousy (as in 
the reception given Ted Berrigan in San Francisco).  That's only a hunch on 
my part, a glance from the outside at certain group dynamics.

Henry

Zan wrote:
>I do, however, contest your ... analysis of L*A*N*G*U*A*G*E poetry, both in
>saying that it is a "mystification" and that it was/is movement "jealous" of
>the NY School "which refused to say anything".  Does this pop out of your
>head, or have you heard someone else describe them thus?




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Nov  6 08:35:47 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:35:47 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Norton Poets Online Newsletter
Message-ID: <4b.260c2455.2afa74b3@aol.com>

Subj:    Norton Poets Online Newsletter
Date:   11/5/02 2:38:29 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   nvictor at WWNORTON.com (Victor, Nomi)
To: poetry at wwnorton.biglist.com ('poetry at wwnorton.biglist.com')

http://www.nortonpoets.com
-----------
Congratulations to Ellen Bryant Voigt, whose book SHADOW OF HEAVEN is a
finalist for the National Book Award. Winners will be announced at the award
ceremony on November 20. 

Congratulations as well to Alice Fulton; her book FELT has won the Bobbitt
Prize, a biennial prize recognizing the most distinguished book of poetry by
an American published during the preceding two years. 

**New this month**
B. H. Fairchild, EARLY OCCULT MEMORY SYSTEMS OF THE LOWER MIDWEST

**New in the Poet's Workshop **
Lathework
by B. H. Fairchild

**New in paperback**
Adrienne Rich THE FACT OF A DOORFRAME: Poems 1950-2002

Selected Poems of Wislawa Szymborska, translated by Joanna Trzeciak


**Poem of the Month: 

"The Death of a Psychic" by B. H. Fairchild**


The obituary in the L.A. Times says that you foresaw 
your own death, also a boy, dead, in a storm drain 
with the wrong shoes on the wrong feet. Death 
became your specialty: a yellow shirt, the flung 

corsage near, vaguely, water, the odd detail drawing 
squad cars and ambulance to the scene you dreaded. 
I imagine nightmares that you woke up to instead 
of from, the heavy winter coat of prophecy that hung 

from your shoulders any season, especially summer 
when mayhem bloomed below a bleeding sun 
and dark angels, gorged on smog and heat, unfurled 
their wings to wake you gasping in your dampened bed, 

again, once more. No theophanies, no "still small voice" 
or hovering dove, but only gray, murky hunches 
bubbling from the mud of intuition, the sudden starts 
and flights of vision, and of course, its shadow, fear. 

But to live haunted by the knowledge of a certain year 
when you would stumble in your flannel houserobe 
through a sunlit kitchen and lie down on cold linoleum 
beneath, at last, the wide wings of the present tense.


? 2002 by B. H. Fairchild


From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  6 08:53:53 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:53:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Charles Simic, "History Book"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECELGFMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

History Book

A kid found its loose pages
On a busy street
He stopped bouncing his ball
To run after them.

They fluttered from his hands
Like butterflies.
He could only glimpse
A few names, a date.

At the outskirts the wind
Took them high.
They were swept over the used-tire dump
Into the grey river,

Where they drown kittens--
And the barge passes,
The one they named Victory

From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  6 09:16:55 2002
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 06:16:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Charles Simic, "History Book"
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECELGFMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20021106141655.94073.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com>


Thanks, Hal.
This poems is one of the reasons that I love Charles Simic's work.  It's plain-spoken:  "A kid found its loose pages."  Yet, there's something more here than simple language.  I love the implications of a history book flying over the tire dump, out to where a cripple waves from a passing barge.  Are we to assume that this is a book of American history, a text book perhaps?  Or--?
Again, thanks.  Interesting and thought-provoking poem--with no petty academic parlor tricks.
Jeff Newberry
 Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
History Book

A kid found its loose pages
On a busy street
He stopped bouncing his ball
To run after them.

They fluttered from his hands
Like butterflies.
He could only glimpse
A few names, a date.

At the outskirts the wind
Took them high.
They were swept over the used-tire dump
Into the grey river,

Where they drown kittens--
And the barge passes,
The one they named Victory

From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  6 10:50:54 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:50:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Charles Simic, "History Book"
In-Reply-To: <20021106141655.94073.qmail@web13001.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECELJFMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I'm glad you like it, Jeff. Now, my wife Lynda insists that I send this
other one, from the page just opposite "History Book."

Old Couple

They're waiting to be murdered,
Or evicted. Soon
They expect to have nothing to eat.
As far as I know, they never go out.

A vicious pain's coming, they think.
It will start in the head
And spread down to the bowels.
They'll be carried off on stretchers, howling.

In the meantime, they watch the street

From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Nov  6 11:07:44 2002
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:07:44 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] B. H. Fairchild
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86FA6@mail.ripon.edu>

I'm a fan of B. H. Fairchild (and I already have picked up his new book),
but I have to say that *Early Occult Memory Systems of the Lower Midwest*
ought to win some sort of prize for terrible title--awkward, mannered, hard
to remember, and no indicator of the excellence of the work therein.  

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> **New this month**
> B. H. Fairchild, EARLY OCCULT MEMORY SYSTEMS OF THE LOWER MIDWEST
> 
> **New in the Poet's Workshop **
> Lathework
> by B. H. Fairchild
> 
> **Poem of the Month: 
> 
> "The Death of a Psychic" by B. H. Fairchild**
> 
> 
> The obituary in the L.A. Times says that you foresaw 
> your own death, also a boy, dead, in a storm drain 
> with the wrong shoes on the wrong feet. Death 
> became your specialty: a yellow shirt, the flung 
> 
> corsage near, vaguely, water, the odd detail drawing 
> squad cars and ambulance to the scene you dreaded. 
> I imagine nightmares that you woke up to instead 
> of from, the heavy winter coat of prophecy that hung 
> 
> from your shoulders any season, especially summer 
> when mayhem bloomed below a bleeding sun 
> and dark angels, gorged on smog and heat, unfurled 
> their wings to wake you gasping in your dampened bed, 
> 
> again, once more. No theophanies, no "still small voice" 
> or hovering dove, but only gray, murky hunches 
> bubbling from the mud of intuition, the sudden starts 
> and flights of vision, and of course, its shadow, fear. 
> 
> But to live haunted by the knowledge of a certain year 
> when you would stumble in your flannel houserobe 
> through a sunlit kitchen and lie down on cold linoleum 
> beneath, at last, the wide wings of the present tense.
> 
> 
> ? 2002 by B. H. Fairchild
> 


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Wed Nov  6 14:20:34 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 12:20:34 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] B. H. Fairchild
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86FA6@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3DC96B81.28D6A5CE@earthlink.net>


"Graham, David" wrote:
> 
> I'm a fan of B. H. Fairchild (and I already have picked up his new book),
> but I have to say that *Early Occult Memory Systems of the Lower Midwest*
> ought to win some sort of prize for terrible title--awkward, mannered, hard
> to remember, and no indicator of the excellence of the work therein.
> 

Works if you change the last term to Intestinal Tract.

- Jim


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Nov  6 23:03:54 2002
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 23:03:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualia
Message-ID: <000a01c28612$b36d1900$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

David Lodge, in the Guardian:


Joseph Levine published an influential paper in 1983 entitled "Materialism and Qualia: The Explanatory Gap." Qualia, plural of the Latin quale, is a key term in consciousness studies, meaning the specific nature of our subjective experience of the world. 

"Examples of qualia are the smell of freshly ground coffee or the taste of pineapple; such experiences have a distinctive phenomenological character which we have all experienced but which, it seems, is very difficult to describe."( The Oxford Companion to the Mind ) 

Levine was drawing attention to the failure of purely materialistic theories of mind to explain this phenomenon. A decade later the philosopher David Chalmers agreed: "It still seems utterly mysterious that the causation of behaviour should be accompanied by a subjective inner life." 

...

When [Stuart] Sutherland said [in the 1989 International Dictionary of Psychology] that nothing worth reading had been written about consciousness, he was articulating a rather dismissive judgment of published work in the professional field of psychology, but unintentionally he was dismissing the entire corpus of the world's literature - because literature is a record of human consciousness, the richest and most comprehensive we have. Lyric poetry is arguably man's most successful effort to describe qualia. The novel is arguably man's most successful effort to describe the experience of individual human beings moving through space and time. 

There are some thinkers in cognitive science, or on the fringes of it, who have acknowledged as much. Noam Chomsky, for instance, has said: "It is quite possible... that we will always learn more about human life and personality from novels than from scientific psychology." The reason is that science tries to formulate general explanatory laws which apply universally, which were in operation before they were discovered, and which would have been discovered sooner or later by somebody. 

Works of literature describe in the guise of fiction the dense specificity of personal experience, which is always unique, because each of us has a slightly or very different personal history, modifying every new experience we have; and the creation of literary texts recapitulates this uniqueness (that is to say, Jane Austen's Emma , for example, could not have been written by anybody else, and never will be written by anyone else again, but an experiment demonstrating the second law of thermodynamics is and must be repeatable by any competent scientist). 

The Nobel Prize-winning neuroscientist Gerald Edelman, in his book Bright Air, Brilliant Fire , writes: "We are at the beginning of the neuroscientific revolution. At the end we should know how the mind works, what governs our nature, and how we know the world." But he acknowledges the limitations of this project. There is, for instance, the problem of qualia.

"The dilemma is that phenomenal experience is a first person matter, and this seems, at first glance, to prevent the formulation of a completely objective or causal account." Science, of course, is a third-person discourse. The first-person pronoun is not used in scientific papers. If there were any hint of qualia in a scientific paper, Edelman says, it would be edited out. But a scientific study of consciousness cannot ignore qualia. His proposed solution is to accept that other people as well as oneself do experience qualia, to collect their first-person accounts, and correlate them to establish what they have in common, bearing in mind that these reports are inevitably "partial, imprecise and relative to... personal context." 

Lyric poetry, however, uses language in such a way that the description of qualia does not seem partial, imprecise, and only comprehensible when put in the context of the poet's personal life. In my novel Thinks..., the heroine Helen Reed makes this point to a cognitive science conference, quoting from Andrew Marvell's poem "The Garden": 

The Luscious Clusters of the Vine 
Upon my Mouth do crush their Wine; 
The Nectaren, and curious Peach, 
Into my hands themselves do reach; 
Stumbling on Melons, as I pass, 
Insnar'd with Flow'rs, I fall on Grass. 

Helen says: "Let me point to a paradox about Marvell's verse, which applies to lyric poetry in general. Although he speaks in the first person, Marvell does not speak for himself alone. In reading this stanza we enhance our own experience of the qualia of fruit and fruitfulness. We see the fruit, we taste it and smell it and savour it with what has been called 'the thrill of recognition' and yet it is not there, it is the virtual reality of fruit, conjured up by the qualia of the poem which I could try to analyse if there were world enough and time, to quote another poem of Marvell's - but there is not" . 

There are lyrical descriptions of qualia in prose fiction as well as verse. "My task, which I am trying to achieve," Joseph Conrad wrote in the Preface to one of his tales, "is by the power of the written word to make you hear, to make you feel - it is before all, to make you see. That - and no more, and it is everything." 



Tad Richards
http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
art - poetry - links
www.opus40.org
Harvey Fite's monumental earth sculpture
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov  7 06:23:17 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 06:23:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualia
References: <000a01c28612$b36d1900$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <004e01c28650$13515c40$7c07fea9@j1c1k6>


  David Lodge, in the Guardian:
   
   
  Joseph Levine published an influential paper in 1983 entitled "Materialism and Qualia: The Explanatory Gap." Qualia, plural of the Latin quale, is a key term in consciousness studies, meaning the specific nature of our subjective experience of the world. 

  "Examples of qualia are the smell of freshly ground coffee or the taste of pineapple; such experiences have a distinctive phenomenological character which we have all experienced but which, it seems, is very difficult to describe."( The Oxford Companion to the Mind ) 

  Levine was drawing attention to the failure of purely materialistic theories of mind to explain this phenomenon. A decade later the philosopher David Chalmers agreed: "It still seems utterly mysterious that the causation of behaviour should be accompanied by a subjective inner life." 

  ...

  When [Stuart] Sutherland said [in the 1989 International Dictionary of Psychology] that nothing worth reading had been written about consciousness, he was articulating a rather dismissive judgment of published work in the professional field of psychology, but unintentionally he was dismissing the entire corpus of the world's literature.
Sorry to quibble, but this is wrong.  Literature is about the CONTENTS of consciousness, not about consciousness (except, in a few cases, when some literary character or author is directly discussing consciousness).

Glad you brought this article to our attention, though, Mole--it gave me a word I didn't know about and have been making up my own words for, for some thirty years or more: "qualia."

--Bob G.





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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov  7 09:50:10 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 09:50:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualia
Message-ID: <78.300f1da7.2afbd7a2@aol.com>

Incidentally, there is a Quale Press
http://www.quale.com
& publisher Gian Lombardo, whose specialty
is the prose poem...

quale [kwa-lay]: Eng. n 1. A property (such as lightness) considered apart.
from things having the property  2. A property as it is experienced as 
distinct from any source it may have in a physical object. 
Ital. pron.a. 1. Which, what 2. Who 3. Some 4. As, just as.


From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  7 11:28:31 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 11:28:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others:  Li Po, "Exile's Letter"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAENCFMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Exile's Letter

To So-Kin of Rakuyo, ancient friend, Chancellor of Gen.
Now I remember that you built me a special tavern
By the south side of the bridge at Ten-Shin.
With yellow gold and white jewels, we paid for songs and
     laughter
And we were drunk for month on month, forgetting the kings
     and princes.
Intelligent men came drifting in from the sea and from the west
     border,
And with them, and with you especially
There was nothing at cross purpose,
And they made nothing of sea-crossing or of mountain-crossing,
If only they could be of that fellowship,
And we all spoke out our hearts and minds, and without regret.
And then I was sent off to South Wei,
     smothered in laurel groves,
And you to the north of Raku-hoku,
Till we had nothing but thoughts and memories in common.
And then, when separation had come to its worst,
We met, and travelled into Sen-Go,
Through all the thirty-six folds of the turning and twisting waters,
Into a valley of the thousand bright flowers, 
That was the first valley;
And into ten thousand valleys full of voices and pine-winds.
And with silver harness and reins of gold,
Out came the East of Kan foreman and his company.
And there came also the 'True man' of Shi-yo to meet me,
Playing on a jewelled mouth-organ.
In the storied houses of San-Ko they gave us more Sennin music,
Many instruments, like the sound of young phoenix broods.
The foreman of Kan Chu, drunk, danced
     because his long sleeves wouldn't keep still
With that music playing,
And I, wrapped in brocade, went to sleep with my head on his
     lap,
And my spirit so high it was all over the heavens,
And before the end of the day we were scattered like stars, or rain.
I had to be off to So, far away over the waters,
You back to your river-bridge.
And your father, who was brave as a leopard,
Was governor in Hei-Shu, and put down the barbarian rabble.
And one May he had you send for me,
          despite the long distance.
And what with broken wheels and so on, I won't say it wasn't
     hard going,
Over roads twisted like sheep's guts.
And I was still going, late in the year,
          in the cutting wind from the North,
And thinking how little you cared for the cost,
          and you caring enough to pay it.
And what a reception:
Red jade cups, food well set on a blue jewelled table,
And I was drunk, and had no thought of returning.
And you would walk out with me to the western corner of the
     castle,
To the dynastic temple, with water about it clear as blue jade,
With boats floating, and the sound of mouth-organs and drums,
With ripples like dragon-scales, going glass green on the water,
Pleasure lasting, with courtezans, going and coming without
     hindrance,
With the willow flakes falling like snow,
And the vermilioned girls getting drunk about sunset,
And the water, a hundred feet deep, reflecting green eyebrows
--Eyebrows painted green are a fine sight in young moonlight,
Gracefully painted--
And the girls singing back at each other,
Dancing in transparent brocade,
And the wind lifting the song, and interrupting it,
Tossing it up under the clouds.
          And all this comes to an end.
          And is not again to be met with.
I went up to the court for examination,
Tried Layu's luck, offered the Choyo song,
And got no promotion,
          and went back to the East Mountains
          White-headed.
And once again, later, we met at the South bridgehead.
And then the crowd broke up, you went north to San palace,
And if you ask how I regret that parting:
It is like the flowers falling at Spring's end
          Confused, whirled in a tangle.
What is the use of talking, and there is no end of
          talking,
There is no end of things in the heart.
I call in the boy,
Have him sit on his knees here
          To seal this,
And send it a thousand miles, thinking.

--Li Po

tr. Ezra Pound


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Nov  7 11:54:03 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 10:54:03 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualia
In-Reply-To: <000a01c28612$b36d1900$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <B9EFF6CB.3A0C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 11/6/02 10:03 PM, theoldmole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote:

> David Lodge, in the Guardian:
>  
>  
> Joseph Levine published an influential paper in 1983 entitled "Materialism and
> Qualia: The Explanatory Gap." Qualia, plural of the Latin quale, is a key term
> in consciousness studies, meaning the specific nature of our subjective
> experience of the world.
>  
> "Examples of qualia are the smell of freshly ground coffee or the taste of
> pineapple; such experiences have a distinctive phenomenological character
> which we have all experienced but which, it seems, is very difficult to
> describe."( The Oxford Companion to the Mind )
>  
> Levine was drawing attention to the failure of purely materialistic theories
> of mind to explain this phenomenon. A decade later the philosopher David
> Chalmers agreed: "It still seems utterly mysterious that the causation of
> behaviour should be accompanied by a subjective inner life."
>  
> ...
>  
> When [Stuart] Sutherland said [in the 1989 International Dictionary of
> Psychology] that nothing worth reading had been written about consciousness,
> he was articulating a rather dismissive judgment of published work in the
> professional field of psychology, but unintentionally he was dismissing the
> entire corpus of the world's literature - because literature is a record of
> human consciousness, the richest and most comprehensive we have. Lyric poetry
> is arguably man's most successful effort to describe qualia. The novel is
> arguably man's most successful effort to describe the experience of individual
> human beings moving through space and time.
>  
> There are some thinkers in cognitive science, or on the fringes of it, who
> have acknowledged as much. Noam Chomsky, for instance, has said: "It is quite
> possible... that we will always learn more about human life and personality
> from novels than from scientific psychology." The reason is that science tries
> to formulate general explanatory laws which apply universally, which were in
> operation before they were discovered, and which would have been discovered
> sooner or later by somebody.
>  
> Works of literature describe in the guise of fiction the dense specificity of
> personal experience, which is always unique, because each of us has a slightly
> or very different personal history, modifying every new experience we have;
> and the creation of literary texts recapitulates this uniqueness (that is to
> say, Jane Austen's Emma , for example, could not have been written by anybody
> else, and never will be written by anyone else again, but an experiment
> demonstrating the second law of thermodynamics is and must be repeatable by
> any competent scientist).
>  
> The Nobel Prize-winning neuroscientist Gerald Edelman, in his book Bright Air,
> Brilliant Fire , writes: "We are at the beginning of the neuroscientific
> revolution. At the end we should know how the mind works, what governs our
> nature, and how we know the world." But he acknowledges the limitations of
> this project. There is, for instance, the problem of qualia.
>  
> "The dilemma is that phenomenal experience is a first person matter, and this
> seems, at first glance, to prevent the formulation of a completely objective
> or causal account." Science, of course, is a third-person discourse. The
> first-person pronoun is not used in scientific papers. If there were any hint
> of qualia in a scientific paper, Edelman says, it would be edited out. But a
> scientific study of consciousness cannot ignore qualia. His proposed solution
> is to accept that other people as well as oneself do experience qualia, to
> collect their first-person accounts, and correlate them to establish what they
> have in common, bearing in mind that these reports are inevitably "partial,
> imprecise and relative to... personal context."
>  
> Lyric poetry, however, uses language in such a way that the description of
> qualia does not seem partial, imprecise, and only comprehensible when put in
> the context of the poet's personal life. In my novel Thinks..., the heroine
> Helen Reed makes this point to a cognitive science conference, quoting from
> Andrew Marvell's poem "The Garden":
>  
> The Luscious Clusters of the Vine
> Upon my Mouth do crush their Wine;
> The Nectaren, and curious Peach,
> Into my hands themselves do reach;
> Stumbling on Melons, as I pass,
> Insnar'd with Flow'rs, I fall on Grass.
>  
> Helen says: "Let me point to a paradox about Marvell's verse, which applies to
> lyric poetry in general. Although he speaks in the first person, Marvell does
> not speak for himself alone. In reading this stanza we enhance our own
> experience of the qualia of fruit and fruitfulness. We see the fruit, we taste
> it and smell it and savour it with what has been called 'the thrill of
> recognition' and yet it is not there, it is the virtual reality of fruit,
> conjured up by the qualia of the poem which I could try to analyse if there
> were world enough and time, to quote another poem of Marvell's - but there is
> not" . 
>  
> There are lyrical descriptions of qualia in prose fiction as well as verse.
> "My task, which I am trying to achieve," Joseph Conrad wrote in the Preface to
> one of his tales, "is by the power of the written word to make you hear, to
> make you feel - it is before all, to make you see. That - and no more, and it
> is everything." 
>  
>  
> Tad Richards
> http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
> art - poetry - links
> www.opus40.org <http://www.opus40.org>
> Harvey Fite's monumental earth sculpture
> 

Lovely post, Tad. I?ve tried to make a similar point in a forthcoming essay
(?The Enchanted Loom,? due out any day now) in the Sourthwest Review.

Thanks for the post.

Paul Lake 
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Nov  7 14:45:57 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 13:45:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fatwa on poet
Message-ID: <B9F01F15.3A0F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>



On Sept. 26th members (listed below) of the Arab Muslim fundamentalist
government of Sudan issued fatwa (a contract for assassination) on
bestselling author Kola Boof, a Black woman's writer who lives in Leimert
Park, California, but who was born in Sudan, North Africa. In 1998, Osama
Bin Laden himself told Kola Boof over the telephone: "If I had the time to
waste--I would slit your throat myself." Ms. Boof had angered many Arab
North Africans in 1997 with her first poetry collection which contained
feminist "rantings". Here are the details of the fatwa:
Kola Boof has been found guilty of: "Blasphemy and Treason"
Codicile: "...guilty of deliberately and maliciously bearing false witness
against religious sentiment and of willing treason against her Arab Muslim
father's people and against her nation, the Sudan."
NOTE: Kola Boof points out that she has not been Muslim since around 10 and
that the men issuing said fatwa are not qualified to do so. Sudan being a
terrorist Taliban-like state...these Islamic politicians have elevated their
own status, according to Boof. Ofcourse...Boof's technical observations will
not stop the fatwa from being carried out. Ms. Boof states that she has been
receiving "death messages" and warnings to "shut up" from Sudanese
government officials by telephone since February of 2002. Leader of the NIF
Hassan Turabi, supposedly under House Arrest by Khartoum Regime has been
especially threatening to Boof (and joked about how he enjoyed raping her in
Kenya in 1998).
The fatwa was issued on Sept. 26th. But on Sept. 15th there was a strong
hint that it would be issued when a Diplomat from Sudan's government, Gamal
Ibrahaim, wrote a scathing article about Kola Boof in London's largest daily
Arabic newspaper, "Al-Sharq al-Awsat"...inwhich he basically called Kola
Boof, "a blasphemer of Islam"..."a fake".."mentally unstable"..."a
prostitute"....and "a liar".
The Fatwa:

Ms. Boof is to be beheaded. She is issued "fatwa". She was suggested for
fatwa by diplomat of the Sudanese government Gamal Ibrahaim. The matter was
ratified by the following: Hassan Turabi (National Islamic Front), Ali
Muhammad Taha (NIF), Sharif al-Tuhami (NIF)..Tanzim Wasti (London's Sudan
Committee), Saad Faqih and PALESTINIAN government official..Mohammed Sobieh.
Although Kola Boof argues that these men are not "designated" to hand down a
fatwa...the regime in Khartoum is recognized as a terrorist government and
is not above declaring itself a religious court and its members Islamic
Scholars. As well as this, the fatwa was anounced by Islamic extremist
Sheikh Omar Bakri of London.
Nigeria's "GUARDIAN NEWSPAPER" did a full feature on the Kola Boof "fatwa"
in its Saturday Nov. 2nd edition (and separately profiled Kola Boof, the
writer). News of the fatwa was also covered by Micheal Ireland from Iran in
Maranatha Journal, Atlanta Christian Weekly and in THE EDMONTON JOURNAL of
Canada. England's GUARDIAN newspaper, meanwhile, chose to gossip about
Boof's dating Osama Bin Laden in 1996 (Politics/Oct. 24th).
Kola Boof gave an interview (Oct. 9th) to longtime journalist Charlie Butts
on USA Radio News inwhich she confirmed and discussed the issue. Ms. Boof
already survived an attempt on her life on Aug. 21st. On Nov. 1st, Ms. Boof
gave an in-depth interview to Washington D.C. radio icon Joe Madison (The
Black Eagle) and continues to tell her story on KJLH's "The Front Page"
(Nov. 7th) and again on Washington, D.C.'s "Nkenge Toure radio program" on
Nov. 8th. Kola Boof, calling herself a "wombbearer and mother of African
children"..will stop at nothing to save the lives of millions of nameless,
faceless African children who have few other voices than hers. Kola Boof is
their scream for help.

Says Boof: "Any other desperate mother would do the same..I thank God for
the few women in America who understand this instintively."

SOURCES:

On Sept. 26th 2002...Simon Jok (SPLA in London) received notification of the
fatwa against Koof Boof by telephone from three people--Sheikh Omar Bakri
(Muslim extremist), the secretary of Tanzim Wasti (head of London Sudan
Committee) and secretary of diplomat Gamal Ibrahaim (who blasted Kola Boof
in an article for London's largest Arab newspaper just one week before).
Kola Boof maintains that she has received death threats directly from the
regime in Khartoum for the last 2 years, the threats becoming more serious
after the August 21st attack and the Sept. 15th newspaper article.

These threats were also sent to Riek Machar--the 2nd in Command (only to Dr.
John Garang) of the Sudanese People's Liberation Army (of which Kola Boof is
a member). That same evening, Sheikh Omar Bakri, founder of Osama Bin
Laden's International Islamic Front fro Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders and
self-appointed Judge of The Sharia Court of the U.K. distributed leaflets in
London anouncing Boof's fatwa and emails were sent to various people around
the world, heralding the author's execution.

THERE'S MORE:
A demonstration against the fatwas has been anounced for Thursday Nov. 7th
of 2002. Even the demonstrators are now being "intimidated" into not showing
up by members from of the Sudanese Embassy in Washington, D.C. and assorted
people claiming to be from the Nation of Islam. As recently as Oct. 31st and
Nov. 1st...the Vice President of the Washington, D.C. chapter of the UNIA
Marcus Garvey Association (which has pledged to take part in the
demonstrations) was contacted by a body of the Sudanese Embassy..insisting
that the UNIA not take part in the demonstration. When the UNIA asked the
Sudanese Embassy personel to contact Kola Boof's camp..to say that the fatwa
was dismissed or to make a PRESS RELEASE saying that the fatwa was
dismissed..they refused to do so.
KOLA:
"After nearly a year of constant intimidation tricks, death threats and an
attempt on my life, they should not only drop the fatwa--but do it publicly,
so that I could believe it", says Kola Boof. "If they're not going to kill
me..then why not say it in public, to the press that they're not going to
kill me. But even then, they would be lying. I'm too much of a woman for
them to let me live. It's been nearly two months and yet they haven't
publicly denied their intentions. They want me so bad..but the timing isn't
right. And the American Media is so stupid to listen to anything these
terrorists say. It shocks me how the press really trusts the words of cold
blooded killers, which is what the NIF is."
DEMONSTRATIONS:
On November 7th..demonstrations to protest the fatwa against Kola Boof will
be held at the United Nations Building in N.Y.C. at 5 p.m....at the Sudanese
Embassy in Washington, D.C. at 5p.m...The demonstration set for Los Angeles
has been cancelled.
Fatwa is also pending on:

Women's author Taslima Nasreen (Nasrin) of Bangledesh

Salman Rushdie (writer/London) *His fatwa was supposedly lifted, but British
government reports that he continues to be hunted. They have him on 24 hour
security according to published reports.

Terrence McNally, an American writer who wrote a play about Jesus Christ
being homosexual.

It is believed that the only reason these 3 most famous cases are still
alive...is because of the media coverage that makes it embarrassing to Arab
Muslim societies to carry out the killings. However, fundamentalists often
make strikes against these people and continue to vow that these people will
be eventually killed.

A fatwa is a legal decision issued by an Islamic Scholar.


This document is an official press release--our sources being...the North
African Book Exchange (Russom Damba), the Sudanese People's Liberation Army,
the Publicists for Kola Boof (Yi Nee Ling and Ajowa Ifetayo) and most
importantly....Ms. Kola Boof herself.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov  7 16:40:13 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:40:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualia
References: <78.300f1da7.2afbd7a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006701c286a6$438cf6c0$b202fea9@j1c1k6>

> Incidentally, there is a Quale Press
> http://www.quale.com
> & publisher Gian Lombardo, whose specialty
> is the prose poem...
>
> quale [kwa-lay]: Eng. n 1. A property (such as lightness) considered
apart.
> from things having the property  2. A property as it is experienced as
> distinct from any source it may have in a physical object.
> Ital. pron.a. 1. Which, what 2. Who 3. Some 4. As, just as.

Neat word--which is new to me.

--Bob G.



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov  7 17:06:32 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 17:06:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SIMP
Message-ID: <183.117da401.2afc3de8@aol.com>

Subj:    e-verse for week of November 4, 2002
Date:   11/7/02 4:38:56 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   webmaster at worldashome.org (World As Home Webmaster)
Sender: everse-owner at worldashome.org
To: everse at worldashome.org

THE SIMP

Cuando en el train, en el ghost train,
con los guns y los wallets, you drip
ice sweats. Cuando en la booth, you
talk
long time. Some dumb hoodoo man
dagnabbed
you for your sins! You ain't no psychic.
You ain't no shopper. Cuando en la
deli, you get a ham omelet.


Kathleen Ossip

---------------------------------
copyright (c) 2002 Kathleen Ossip. From  "The Search Engine," published by 
Copper Canyon Press. http://www.coppercanyonpress.org
---------------------------------


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  7 19:21:40 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:21:40 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SIMP
References: <183.117da401.2afc3de8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DCB0394.AC9523E3@earthlink.net>

The Shrimp

Cuando en el screen, en el ghost train,
con los gritos y las personas, you burp
wannabes.  Cuando en el dialogue, you
exigesis
long time.  Some academo man
formalized
you and your grins!  No es psychedelico.
You ain't no bopper.  Cuando en la
Starbucks, you get sestina
frothed loudly.

- Jim (not Lorna Dee)

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Subj:    e-verse for week of November 4, 2002
> Date:   11/7/02 4:38:56 PM Eastern Standard Time
> From:   webmaster at worldashome.org (World As Home Webmaster)
> Sender: everse-owner at worldashome.org
> To: everse at worldashome.org
> 
> THE SIMP
> 
> Cuando en el train, en el ghost train,
> con los guns y los wallets, you drip
> ice sweats. Cuando en la booth, you
> talk
> long time. Some dumb hoodoo man
> dagnabbed
> you for your sins! You ain't no psychic.
> You ain't no shopper. Cuando en la
> deli, you get a ham omelet.
> 
> Kathleen Ossip
> 
> ---------------------------------
> copyright (c) 2002 Kathleen Ossip. From  "The Search Engine," published by
> Copper Canyon Press. http://www.coppercanyonpress.org
> ---------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Nov  7 21:37:42 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 21:37:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] B. H. Fairchild
Message-ID: <18a.10de19f9.2afc7d76@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/6/2002 1:22:25 PM Central Standard Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: 
> "Graham, David" wrote:
> >
> >I'm a fan of B. H. Fairchild (and I already have picked up his new book),
> >but I have to say that *Early Occult Memory Systems of the Lower Midwest*
> >ought to win some sort of prize for terrible title--awkward, mannered, 
> hard
> >to remember, and no indicator of the excellence of the work therein.
> >
> 
> Works if you change the last term to Intestinal Tract.
> 
I love Pete's work (blurbed The Art of the Lathe) but this is a terrible 
title.
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From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  8 02:44:11 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 15:44:11 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fatwa on poet
References: <B9F01F15.3A0F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <00cd01c286fa$a4299610$4b864cca@JROSS2>

Well Hell's Bells!!  It's been bad enough contending with (mostly) upper
middle-class white men sneaky capitalists who do their best to cut off your
money supply if you're too dissident, now writers have to put up with
fanatic so-called Muslim men who want to kill them because they stood up for
the rights of women and children ... or just stood up for their own creative
impulse.

You think these murderous idiots might have forgotten a few little things in
their rush to defend a religion manifested through amazingly misogynistic
cultures:  God doesn't have a sex/gender; God most certainly has a sense of
humour; God is big enough to take criticism without these horrid penile
cranial projections declaring fatwas left, right and centre?

Zan



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Nov  8 02:48:31 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 15:48:31 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SIMP
References: <183.117da401.2afc3de8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <012501c286fd$1fc6df10$4b864cca@JROSS2>

That was wonderful!!  Must add this collection to my Christmas list!  Do you
have any autobiographical information on Ossip?

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 6:06 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] THE SIMP


> Subj:    e-verse for week of November 4, 2002
> Date:   11/7/02 4:38:56 PM Eastern Standard Time
> From:   webmaster at worldashome.org (World As Home Webmaster)
> Sender: everse-owner at worldashome.org
> To: everse at worldashome.org
>
> THE SIMP
>
> Cuando en el train, en el ghost train,
> con los guns y los wallets, you drip
> ice sweats. Cuando en la booth, you
> talk
> long time. Some dumb hoodoo man
> dagnabbed
> you for your sins! You ain't no psychic.
> You ain't no shopper. Cuando en la
> deli, you get a ham omelet.
>
>
> Kathleen Ossip
>
> ---------------------------------
> copyright (c) 2002 Kathleen Ossip. From  "The Search Engine," published by
> Copper Canyon Press. http://www.coppercanyonpress.org
> ---------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Fri Nov  8 10:04:36 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 07:04:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: robertr.cobb not a recognized NP List member
Message-ID: <20021108150436.047F3ABB8@controlcenter.everyone.net>

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From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Fri Nov  8 10:22:33 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 07:22:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bio-Optic Organized Knowledge device
Message-ID: <20021108152233.DE8E011E2D@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Nov  8 17:10:00 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 17:10:00 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pooh-poohing postmodernism
Message-ID: <7f.2ee21d53.2afd9038@aol.com>

http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/00000006DB0F.htm

'The essays that the graduating BAs would submit with their applications were 
often brilliant. After five or six years of PhD work, the same people would 
write incomprehensible crap. Where did they learn it? They learned it from 
us.'
 
 


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Nov  8 17:19:41 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 17:19:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] 10 Writers Honored With Whiting Awards
Message-ID: <104.1f1f4255.2afd927d@aol.com>

November 1, 2002   E-mail story   Print  
 10 Writers Honored With Whiting Awards   
 From Associated Press 


NEW YORK -- Five fiction authors, three poets and two playwrights are winners 
of the 18th annual Whiting Writers' Awards, given to "emerging writers of 
exceptional talent and promise."

Honorees receive $35,000 each.

"We expect that they will continue to produce strong work in the future and 
we hope this award will help make that possible," said Barbara K. Bristol, 
director of the Whiting writers' program.

Previous winners include Tony Kushner, Jonathan Franzen and Katha Pollitt.

Among those cited this year were Justin Cronin, a Philadelphia-based novelist 
whose debut work, "Mary and O'Neil," won a PEN Hemingway Award; New 
York-based playwright Melissa James Gibson, winner of an Obie award for 
"(sic)"; and poet Elizabeth Arnold, the Washington-based author of "The Reef."

Other fiction writers honored were Michelle Huneven of Altadena, Calif.; Kim 
Edwards of Lexington, Ky.; and Danzy Senna and Jeffrey Renard Allen of New 
York. Poets David Gewanter and Joshua Weiner of Washington and playwright 
Evan Smith of Savannah, Ga., were also cited. 


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Nov  8 18:53:14 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 16:53:14 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pooh-poohing postmodernism
References: <7f.2ee21d53.2afd9038@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DCC4E6A.A0309B07@earthlink.net>

Thanks.  I especially appreciated the articulation of:

'Membership in the academy or non-membership in the academy isn't 
really the point', argues Crews. 'The point is, are intellectuals saying
things that the public can genuinely learn from? When they're only
talking the jargon of their own field, the public is learning nothing.
There has to be an effort to take the serious disciplines of knowledge
and communicate them to the public in a way which is not debased.'

But we all know that, huh?

- Jim

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/00000006DB0F.htm
> 
> 'The essays that the graduating BAs would submit with their applications were
> often brilliant. After five or six years of PhD work, the same people would
> write incomprehensible crap. Where did they learn it? They learned it from
> us.'
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From chris at chrislott.org  Fri Nov  8 20:56:19 2002
From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 20:56:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pooh-poohing postmodernism
In-Reply-To: <3DCC4E6A.A0309B07@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211082051210.32374-100000@mercury.sabren.com>

On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, James Cervantes wrote:

> 'When they're only
> talking the jargon of their own field, the public is 
> learning nothing.'
>
> But we all know that, huh?

I remain unconvinced that your uni(equi)vocal exhortation is within 
the problematic (qua theore) of which the poststructuralist literary 
must be asserted in order that it speak-- nay (neigh (do you like my 
horse(hoarse) play))-- to the constellation of heremeneutical inquiry, 
the aegis of which you question!?

c




From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Nov  8 21:56:15 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 19:56:15 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pooh-poohing postmodernism
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211082051210.32374-100000@mercury.sabren.com>
Message-ID: <3DCC794E.8B562E06@earthlink.net>


Chris Lott wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, James Cervantes wrote:
> 
> > 'When they're only
> > talking the jargon of their own field, the public is
> > learning nothing.'
> >
> > But we all know that, huh?
> 
> I remain unconvinced that your uni(equi)vocal exhortation is within
> the problematic (qua theore) of which the poststructuralist literary
> must be asserted in order that it speak-- nay (neigh (do you like my
> horse(hoarse) play))-- to the constellation of heremeneutical inquiry,
> the aegis of which you question!?
> 

Alas, Chris, the neo qua qua of your response, with its subtext of
post-genre/gender (un)equivocal plei(ing) and Solari bell-ringing is
exactly what my anticipatory pre-posting of retro (neg/pos) pre/post
conscious lime jello meant in s(c)erial terms, albeit sans mother's milk
or nasty, bone-eating white sugar.  So, give up, dude, and tune in to
Eminem or M & M's and mess education.

- J(i)m


From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Sat Nov  9 09:19:16 2002
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 09:19:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tupelo Reminder - Alicia Ostriker Reading
Message-ID: <7c.30f7dfa1.2afe7364@aol.com>

TUPELO PRESS
Village Reading Series

book signing and dinner following
SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 10TH  7:30 PM


Alicia Ostriker
and
John Brehm

Pangea Bar & Restaurant, 178 2nd Ave. New York City
(btwn 12 & 11th Sts) 
212-995-0900

no cover, plenty of bookmarks

Presented by:
Tupelo Press, P.O. Box 539, Dorset, VT Tel: 802-366-8185, Fax: 802-362-1883
www.tupelopress.org



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From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Sat Nov  9 13:58:35 2002
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 10:58:35 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1094 - 6 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20021109170102.3DD3410336@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021109105351.009fab90@incoming.verizon.net>

To Chris & Jim:

You guys are (funny)

(b.)


>Chris Lott:
>
>I remain unconvinced that your uni(equi)vocal exhortation is within
>the problematic (qua theore) of which the poststructuralist literary
>must be asserted in order that it speak-- nay (neigh (do you like my
>horse(hoarse) play))-- to the constellation of heremeneutical inquiry,
>the aegis of which you question!?

c.

>James Cervantes:
>
>Alas, Chris, the neo qua qua of your response, with its subtext of
>post-genre/gender (un)equivocal plei(ing) and Solari bell-ringing is
>exactly what my anticipatory pre-posting of retro (neg/pos) pre/post
>conscious lime jello meant in s(c)erial terms, albeit sans mother's milk
>or nasty, bone-eating white sugar.  So, give up, dude, and tune in to
>Eminem or M & M's and mess education.
>
>- J(i)m
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Nov  9 21:24:08 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 21:24:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pomo discourse by others: Alan Sondheim, "Aphorisms"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEPKFMAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Aphorisms

Take it as far as you can, then leave the "you" at home.
Exhaustion eliminates the adverb; frenzy awakens it.
Suck sex like the open wound it is.
The erotic is an excuse for the enumeration of organs.
Leave the gap for the fire on the other side.
Where there's fire, there's smoke.
The cloth of words suffocates the mouth.
Bite God and the loincloth falls to pieces.
The mediocre corrupts at a distance.
Honesty is the last refuge of the mediocre.
If you cut out their tongues you continue to talk forever.
If you cut out their tongues they continue to talk forever.
Balk at the righteous.
Truth is an index.
Sit at the foot of the running woman.
It is only a refugee who lives in his own house.
When you seek sex leave the penis behind.
The absence of culture is the geometry of sex.
Carry on one leg what both of them refuse.
Crawl through the dung of your own words.
The decision against suicide is continually renewable.
The valley brings proof to the mountain.
Etiquette alone places fork and not knife through the body.
Politeness confirms paranoia.
Etiquette is the best cleanser.
Trample yourself underfoot in a mingling of other bodies.
Bodies are the best guarantee of sex.
Images guarantee the erotic and pornography guarantees the body.
Revel in sickness: the revolt of the body promises the demise of damaged life.
Illness always increases the quantity of organisms available.
Bring others down with you; their hatred supports them.
Do not do with one foot what you cannot do with the other.
Afterbirth, afterdeath.
The alpha and omega of existence is the shortest distance between two points.
The alpha and omega of the aphorism is hesitation in the face of exhaustion.
The theorist courts the eternal.
What is never considered in theory is pagination.
Theory is invaded by the autobiographical to the consternation of the author,
were he or she still alive.
Representation is nothing but the completion of time.
The triangulation of spirit is the origin of negation.
The first invention of man was the construction of the cave receiving the
shadow of woman.
The opposition of the same is the same.
The circuit of the slogan is the barrier of language.
Nothing is a metaphor.
The body dissolves in the presence of speech; the body dissolves in the
absence of speech.
Throwing herself at love, passing through to the other side: the hyperbole of
the slogan.
Obsession breeds quantity; quantity obsesses.
Scarcity increases demagoguery; I am left speechless.
There is nothing to be said in relation to the complete lie: there is nowhere to
say it.
What words caress erodes in their presence.
One may describe the entrance to the tunnel, not the passage, not the other
side; sexuality is an accumulation of entrances and exits.
Not the shadow of a doubt, but sceptical illumination: the shadow inverts in
the face of a complete lie.
Nothing coheres to transcendence.
To enter into debate is to foreclose on the slogan: what other weapon spends
itself on the body, and spends the capital of the body itself? To enter into
debate is to compound temporality and assign the eternal to a
characterological role at best; late capitalism in its division of character into
contructible traits nevertheless refers the eternal to a continual state of
progress. This state, antithetical to the debate, must reduce debate to the level
of the aphorism. Rhetoric begins with the seizure of foreclosure itself, in the
name of state ideology.

--Alan Sondheim

fr. *Disorders of the Real*

[Barrytown, NY: Station Hill Press, 1988]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 10 10:35:52 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:35:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Today's News Today
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEAAFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Today's News Today
 
President George W. Bush has settled on a war plan for Iraq 
that would begin with an air campaign shorter than the one 
for the Persian Gulf War, senior administration officials say. 
Iraq ready to comply, Arabs say, "We need Winona like we need a bowl." 
Saddam convenes parliament on UN resolution. 
Behind the scripted spectacle of their weeklong party congress, 
China's Communists are trying to do something remarkable. 
They are seeking to anoint leaders and select a message that will 
maintain a Leninist monopoly on power in China. 
Jiang urges China to use IT & blaze new trails. 
Congress sticks to the script: "Winona shoplifted before." 
Russian space crew lands.
Goosen clinches order of merit crown.
Stars to lead anti-smoking campaign.
Iraq plots next move.
 
Winona has yet to react to a fresh UN resolution which gives 
Iraq one last chance to disarm and avoid probable war. 
Syria warns of "traps" in UN resolution. 
Arab leaders expect Iraq to comply with UN resolution.
Palace officials claim, "We need Winona like we need a bowl." 
Britain's royals were engulfed in further damaging claims yesterday 
over a series of sensational allegations about the gay sex life of former royal 
butler Paul Burrell and other palace servants. 
British royal servant breaks silence over rape claim. 
Three people in our marriage: butler's wife, butler, Winona. 
Activists vow Europe-wide protests against Iraq War.
Peace activists pledged on Sunday to stage protests across Europe 
against any war in Iraq, fired by the success of a weekend rally that brought 
half a million protesters onto the streets of Florence. 
In a historic win, Dubya defied the experts once again. 
Behind the GOP's early planning and product-testing in a wartime race. 
GOP gains will embolden Bush administration. Sources say 
teen fired gun at times and said, "I need Winona like I need a bowl." 
The region's schools felt like fortresses as helicopters flew overhead 
and jittery parents walked their children to class. 
With sniper suspect ID'd, ex-wife recognizes herself as final target. 
Bishops to confer on changes proposed by Vatican in abuse policy 
The nation's Roman Catholic bishops meet this week with Winona to vote 
on changes requested by the Vatican in their sexual abuse policy.   
Harvey Pitt is out, Winona says, but the problems faced by the Securities and Exchange 
Commission are not over. The state attorneys general who were the losers 
in the recent Microsoft anti-trust court decision are considering whether 
they should focus on enforcing restrictions against Microsoft rather than appeal 
the ruling. Doha trade deal unravelling. One year after a new round of world 
trade talks began, there has been little progress in their central objective of shaping 
trade to help Winona and the rest of the world's poor. 
Govt. confident of Winona Bowl security, but protests loom 
as mini-Winona Bowl meeting nears in Sydney. 

After a soft landing in the Kazakh steppe, two cosmonauts and a Belgian astronaut 
said Sunday they were feeling well after their 10-day stay at the International Space Station. 
Wildfire below: smoldering peat disgorges huge volumes of carbon.
Once set alight by wildfires, deep beds of decaying tropical plant matter pump 
massive amounts of carbon into the sky. According to new research, emissions of globe-warming 
gases from smoldering peat eclipse those from burning surface vegetation. 
Six of the world's leading notebook makers joined Microsoft Thursday to launch the Windows 
XP-based Tablet PC, a slate-shaped computer device allowing people to input data 
by writing instead of using a keyboard. 
Microsoft says Tablet will offer new PC productivity. 

Goosen clinches order of merit crown
Harrington ahead but hopes dim. Australia thrashes Winona to go one-up
Australia has crushed Winona by 384 runs to win the opening Ashes Test 
at the Gabba in Brisbane. Australia snatched the win inside four days 
after a humiliating batting collapse by the tourists. 
No mercy, no mistakes, no contest.
Winona's hopes in ashes.
City show Fergie they're Maine men. 
Manchester City marked the last premiership derby at Maine Road 
in style at the weekend by dealing another severe blow 
to Manchester United's title ambitions. 
Keane unlikely to be fit for Arsenal clash Ananova
Danny boy in sky-blue heaven 
Court transcripts in the case of Hollywood actress Winona Ryder suggest 
she was suspected of shoplifting on two previous occasions 
before her conviction on Wednesday. 
Judge told film star had history of shoplifting. 

n'); } if ( plugin ) { document.write(' '); document.write(' '); document.write(' '); 
document.write(' '); document.write(' '); } else if (!(navigator.appName &
& navigator.appName.indexOf("Netscape")>=0 ... 
A black police officers' association and two Queens elected officials yesterday 
challenged the hip-hop community to break its "wall of silence" and join 
their efforts in helping police solve the killing of Jam Master Jay. 
Canadian pop boy band B4-4 and US recording artist Moby will head 
a new anti-smoking campaign aimed at teenagers, the European Union announced Friday. 
Grandad's death and Winona behind boyband "no smoking" drive. 
The Food and Drug Administration approved a test today that can detect 
whether Winona is infected with H.I.V., the virus that 
causes AIDS, in as little as 20 minutes. 
Experts said that advance might prompt thousands more . . . 
 
Even a single drink of alcohol is enough to impair Winona's ability to reason 
quickly and detect errors, according to a study that electronically 
monitored brain waves in volunteers given drinks. 
Alcohol rapidly confuses the brain.
Two glasses of wine may hurt judgment. 
Russian President Vladimir Putin angrily rejected on Sunday Chechnya's fugitive 
elected leader Aslan Maskhadov as a peace partner over his alleged role
in the Moscow theater siege. 
Chechnya and Russia: Centuries of conflict over sovereignty leave a bitter legacy. 
Putin heeds Winona's call for Chechnya deal. 
Israeli troops have withdrawn from the West Bank town of Jenin 
after completing an operation in which a senior member of Islamic Jihad was killed. 
Israeli pull out of Jenin begins.
Israel kills a leader of Islamic Jihad; response reported. 
Indonesian investigators suspect several of Winona's accomplices  
in the Bali bombings may have fled to neighboring Malaysia, 
an intelligence official said Sunday. 


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

 



From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Sun Nov 10 12:30:33 2002
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:30:33 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1095 - 3 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20021110170102.51F6E109A3@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021110092611.009f47f0@incoming.verizon.net>


>
>Halvard Johnson wrote:
>
>Today's News Today
>
NEWS SUMMARY

Come on, Iraq, be nice.
You, too, North Korea, stop this shit.
Calm down, boys, back off,
Think of the grandkids, fat and sassy.
This is not an irony poem.

And you, too, U.S., unstroke that sabre,
Balloon bomb cascading jellybeans.
Listen, baddies in Oman and Damascus,
In Tell Aviv, Belfast -- don't drool.
Everybody by God chill out and go to charm school.

- b
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From MillB at aol.com  Sun Nov 10 18:57:31 2002
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 18:57:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] reading in la
Message-ID: <9.1e952cd.2b004c6b@aol.com>

Catherine:

I just got back from a trip to Vancouver and thought I'd check in with you. . 
.Any news about a schedule for the LA readings next spring?  I was invited to 
Jentel writers residency for Jan/Feb, so I thought I'd let you know.  

I'm planning on going to Ralph Angel's reading at The Getty next Sunday.  
Maybe I'll see you there?

Cheers,

Millicent
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Nov 10 21:50:42 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:50:42 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery Whispers
Message-ID: <200211110249.gAB2ncAe066125@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

I see on Poetry Daily that John Ashbery has gone and published again. 
*Chinese Whispers* gets rather a rave review in the Philadelphia Inquirer--

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/entertainment/books/4482388.htm

This must be the eighth or twelfth book from Ashbery since I last paid much
attention to his work, I confess, though I've opened one or three along the
way.  Not long after the 1985 *Selected Poems* I concluded that this book
was likely to hold most the Ashbery I would ever crave.  And he was clearly
in the twilight of his career way back then. . . .  But the guy just keeps
publishing.  Now I'm wondering if there is any reason to take another look
at his work, but I'm daunted by the sheer volume.  

I'm thinking that many of you out there in NewPoLand have kept up better
than I have.  Are we looking at a remarkable late flowering here, or a
torrent of dribbles and doodles?  Anything truly *new* in the past half
dozen books?  Any of the recent books notably *better* than the others, in
your view?  Any of them more likely to convince a skeptical reader that he's
more than an old coot on autopilot?
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================



From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Nov 11 06:28:33 2002
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 06:28:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Of late on the blog
Message-ID: <000e01c28975$7c000430$c642c143@Dell>

Reading new poetry: 
Richard Deming in Mirage #4 / Period(ical) #104

Ashbery's ear: "The Hod Carrier"
+ a link to Tom Devaney's review of Chinese Whispers

What is revision & where do we find it?
(Frank Stanford's The Battlefield where the Moon says I Love You)

More on literary formation & the Canadian poetry wars

Jack Spicer's literary hoax - Gene Stratton Porter

Prosody vs. dialect - an American ear in other nations

Ange Mlinko & Tom Devaney at La Tazza

David Bromige's path to language

Barbara Guest & the abstract lyric

The role of critical writing within langpo

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/





From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu  Sun Nov 10 21:01:44 2002
From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:01:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashberriana
Message-ID: <v02140b04b9f4beb53aa8@[150.208.186.92]>

RE: Ashberry

The new Ashberry is as filled with nostalgic regret toward all his former
friends, now dead, as was the late Kenneth Koch in his last book. There is
a wistful melancholy about the fading of the light, braced by a pugnacious
refusal to give up. The art is still there, after all, but the depth of
self-contradictions has flattened out, with greater ellipses between the
stanzas and the italicized punch lines.

Michael Karl




From lattaj at umich.edu  Mon Nov 11 09:18:15 2002
From: lattaj at umich.edu (John Latta)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:18:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Book Announcement
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0211110916330.5612-100000@zektor.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>

What's below is an announcement of my new book, _Breeze_, with ordering
information. Also cover blurbs by Don Byrd and Robert Morgan. Thanks. JL
---------------------

Breeze, by John Latta

Winner of the 2003 Ernest Sandeen Prize in Poetry,
selected by John Matthias

Paper ISBN 0-268-02171-6 / 116 pages

Regular Price $16.00

Discount Price $12.80 /
For individuals ordering directly via the Web.

Go to: http://www.nd.edu/~undpress/



"John Latta is funny and deep. He watches things quietly and carefully,
suspicious of everything he sees and hears, I think, and he writes quiet
poems. You almost have to hold your breath to hear them, but they
reverberate like thunder and sometimes like a distant battle. These poems
are without precedence: the thunder and the battle haven't happened yet."
--Don Byrd

"In these poems we feel the verve and assurance of a most accomplished
voice, a wonderful sense of relish and improvisation that keeps
surprising. Latta's meditations lead us to unexpected, larger connections,
unfolding like mathematical narratives whose terms we may not have
guessed, but find exact, passionate."
--Robert Morgan




From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 11 16:42:42 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:42:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Selden Rodman
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEBFFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I remember Selden Rodman especially for a couple delicious
little anthologies of poetry (not necessarily verse) he put together
for Signet Books, as I recall, back around the middle of the last
century. Wish I could find them now.

	http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/11/obituaries/11RODM.html


Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Mon Nov 11 16:54:39 2002
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:54:39 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: George Bowering appointed Parliamentary Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021111155413.01970598@mail.ilstu.edu>

Apropos the recent Canadian poets thread.


>Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:36:52 -0700
>From: derek beaulieu <derek at HOUSEPRESS.CA>
>Subject: George Bowering appointed Parliamentary Poet Laureate
>Sender: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
>To: POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU
>Reply-to: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
>Comments: RFC822 error: <W> Incorrect or incomplete address field found and
>  ignored.
>
>George Bowering appointed Parliamentary Poet Laureate
>
>
>http://artscanada.cbc.ca/artsNow/index.jsp?label=poetlaureate111102&uid=4269
>75
>
>  Arts Now
>
>Award-winning B.C. poet George Bowering will become Canada's first
>Parliamentary Poet Laureate.
>
>He was appointed to the post from a short-list of three finalists.
>
>Born in Penticton in 1935, Bowering served as a photographer in the RCAF.
>Until last year, he taught at Vancouver's Simon Fraser University.
>
>He's won two Governor-General's Awards for his poems "The Gangs of Kosmos"
>and "Rocky Mountain Foot" as well as his novel "Burning Water." He's also
>received the Canadian Authors' Association Award for poetry.
>
>Bowering has over 40 titles of poetry, short stories and novels.
>
>Paying $12,000 a year plus travel expenses, the position is largely
>honourary.
>
>His new duties will include addressing special occasions in Parliament,
>giving advice to the Parliamentary librarian and sponsoring poetry readings.
>
>The position was created when Senator Jerry Grafstein introduced Bill S-10.
>Grafstein said he wanted to improve the level of debate in the House of
>Commons.
>
>For more arts news, listen to The Arts Report weekdays at 7:12 a.m., 8:12
>a.m. and 5:55 p.m. on CBC Radio Two.

Gabriel Gudding
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Illinois State University
Normal, IL  61790
office 309.438.5284
home 309.828.8377

http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon Nov 11 17:48:39 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:48:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Selden Rodman
Message-ID: <d0.2fc0af0d.2b018dc7@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/11/2002 3:54:16 PM Central Standard Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes: 
> I remember Selden Rodman especially for a couple delicious
> little anthologies of poetry (not necessarily verse) he put together
> for Signet Books, as I recall, back around the middle of the last
> century. Wish I could find them now.

mathom at gwi.net

Lew Turco is a used book dealer, and he's always been able to find anything 
I've wanted.
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From Cadaly at aol.com  Tue Nov 12 12:52:49 2002
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:52:49 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] reading in la
Message-ID: <1a8.bd0fd36.2b0299f1@aol.com>

I've always wanted to go to Vancouver.  

I just sent you an e-mail.

The Valley Contemporary Poets have assembled most of the Spring and Summer 
schedules.

Readings are at the Cobalt Caf? at 9 pm Third Tuesdays.  

This conflicts somewhat with one of my other reading series, so I will be a 
bit late for all of your readings.  Sorry.

February 18:  Elizabeth Knapp
May 20:  Millicent Borges
August 19:  Tony Lee

Let me know if these are not good dates for you, if I have spelled your names 
incorrectly, etc.  

Be well,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
on behalf of the Valley Contemporary Poets

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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 12 15:39:06 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:39:06 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] chat with the Kentucky Poet Laureate
Message-ID: <29.3100b312.2b02c0ea@aol.com>

Hello, all.  Just to let you know, we still have a few spots left for 
participants in our upcoming online chat with Kentucky Poet Laureate, James 
Baker Hall, this coming Thursday, November 14, from 7:00 to 8:00 p.m. EST.  

If you'd like to participate, please let me know as soon as soon as possible 
so that I can send you chatroom directions and passwords.

Best wishes,


Nickole Brown
Director of Marketing and Development
Sarabande Books, Inc.
2234 Dundee Road, Suite 200
Louisville, KY  40205

(502) 458-4028


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 12 15:50:08 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:50:08 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tribute to Hayden Caruth
Message-ID: <64.28167af4.2b02c380@aol.com>

--VERMONT CELEBRATES HAYDEN CARRUTH--31 POETS TO HONOR THE LIFE AND WORK
OF HAYDEN CARRUTH
--READINGS SCHEDULED IN MONTPELIER, ST. JOHNSBURY, BRATTLEBORO AND
MIDDLEBURY--


From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Nov 13 08:10:29 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:10:29 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] BigSmallPressMall
Message-ID: <32.302897b8.2b03a945@aol.com>

Welcome to the BigSmallPressMall.

Four independent publishers have joined together here to form a mighty 
alliance of innovation and cooperation. Fence, Open City, McSweeney's, and 
Verse are all literary journals that have expanded into book publication. We 
share a commitment to editorial integrity and a desire to get the word out 
about our authors and their books. We respect one anothers' efforts and have 
decided to go one step further and share our audiences. You are receiving 
this announcement, therefore, because you are part of the mailing list of one 
of these four presses. We hope you will enjoy this chance to explore the 
expanded world of the BigSmallPressMall, http://www.bigsmallpressmall.com, 
wherein you will find information about each press, links to our individual 
sites, combined listings for all of our events, and a special discounted 
package that includes one title from each press.

If you enjoy independent presses and like what you see here, please tell your
friends to sign up for this mailing list on the site.

The first special discounted sample package ($35 for four books--30% off what 
it would be if you bought each individually) includes: 

from Fence Books: The Real Moon of Poetry and Other Poems, by Tina Brown 
Celona
from McSweeney's Books: The Middle Stories by Sheila Heti
from Open City Books: Venus Drive, Stories by Sam Lipsyte
from Verse Press: Nice Hat. Thanks. Poems by Joshua Beckman and Matthew Rohrer

Click here to order: http://www.bigsmallpressmall.com/package.html

*********************** 
from The Real Moon of Poetry:

A SONG FOR THE MOON

the moon is more beautiful
later
when i have gone to bed with my poem
about the moon

with my beautiful poem
about the beautiful moon
in my poem

the real moon looks real
too real for my poem

the moon in my poem
is better
for poetry

the real moon of poetry
is better for me

*************************

from The Middle Stories:

They didn't take each other's hand. They sat down on a bench and looked out 
over the water and heard not the rustle of people or the roar of traffic or 
the raindrops on the lake. They didn't hear each other breathing, or feel the 
presence of God. They heard their heavy thoughts and slumped back on the 
bench and contemplated some. Well, if it wasn't the sea, so dark and grim. If 
it wasn't the sky, the worst of the year. If it wasn't the weather, the 
coldest day yet. And everyone inside escaping it. And there they were, ugly 
and forlorn, in a day just as ugly, and just as forlorn, but still a day, 
still a day.


*************************

from Nice Hat. Thanks.:

Lights

Evening sucks the stems from the trees.
Evening watches the people leave.
Policemen moving very slowly.
Banks quietly counting money.
What will entertain us next?
Lights high above the city.

*************************

from Venus Drive:

Everybody wanted everything to be gleaming again, or maybe they just wanted 
their evening back. Everybody was from everywhere, had gathered here to hide 
from the daylight. Some of these people sat around a marble table with straws 
in their hands. It looked like they were waiting for lemonade. They were 
trying to get my friend Gary on the phone to get more lemonade. It was early, 
late, lockjaw hour.

"Is it like this in Geneva?" I said to a man at the table. I was new here, 
recommended to the straw people by Gary. I felt like the pupil of a great 
instructor out alone in the dead city.




--
To unsubscribe from: BigSmallPressMall, just follow this link:

http://www.bigsmallpressmall.com/mojo/mojo.cgi?f=u&l=bspmmail&e=jforjames at aol.

com&p=5118

Click the link, or copy and paste the address into your browser.



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 13 08:48:11 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 06:48:11 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] BigSmallPressMall
References: <32.302897b8.2b03a945@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DD2581B.43D4ECDC@earthlink.net>

Inevitable.

- Jim

"Months long, the painstaking pablum.
At the end, the spoon is stirred."

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Welcome to the BigSmallPressMall.
> 
> Four independent publishers have joined together here to form a mighty
> alliance of innovation and cooperation. Fence, Open City, McSweeney's, and
> Verse are all literary journals that have expanded into book publication. We
> share a commitment to editorial integrity and a desire to get the word out
> about our authors and their books. We respect one anothers' efforts and have
> decided to go one step further and share our audiences. You are receiving
> this announcement, therefore, because you are part of the mailing list of one
> of these four presses. We hope you will enjoy this chance to explore the
> expanded world of the BigSmallPressMall, http://www.bigsmallpressmall.com,
> wherein you will find information about each press, links to our individual
> sites, combined listings for all of our events, and a special discounted
> package that includes one title from each press.
> 
> If you enjoy independent presses and like what you see here, please tell your
> friends to sign up for this mailing list on the site.
> 
> The first special discounted sample package ($35 for four books--30% off what
> it would be if you bought each individually) includes:
> 
> from Fence Books: The Real Moon of Poetry and Other Poems, by Tina Brown
> Celona
> from McSweeney's Books: The Middle Stories by Sheila Heti
> from Open City Books: Venus Drive, Stories by Sam Lipsyte
> from Verse Press: Nice Hat. Thanks. Poems by Joshua Beckman and Matthew Rohrer
> 
> Click here to order: http://www.bigsmallpressmall.com/package.html
> 
> ***********************
> from The Real Moon of Poetry:
> 
> A SONG FOR THE MOON
> 
> the moon is more beautiful
> later
> when i have gone to bed with my poem
> about the moon
> 
> with my beautiful poem
> about the beautiful moon
> in my poem
> 
> the real moon looks real
> too real for my poem
> 
> the moon in my poem
> is better
> for poetry
> 
> the real moon of poetry
> is better for me
> 
> *************************
> 
> from The Middle Stories:
> 
> They didn't take each other's hand. They sat down on a bench and looked out
> over the water and heard not the rustle of people or the roar of traffic or
> the raindrops on the lake. They didn't hear each other breathing, or feel the
> presence of God. They heard their heavy thoughts and slumped back on the
> bench and contemplated some. Well, if it wasn't the sea, so dark and grim. If
> it wasn't the sky, the worst of the year. If it wasn't the weather, the
> coldest day yet. And everyone inside escaping it. And there they were, ugly
> and forlorn, in a day just as ugly, and just as forlorn, but still a day,
> still a day.
> 
> *************************
> 
> from Nice Hat. Thanks.:
> 
> Lights
> 
> Evening sucks the stems from the trees.
> Evening watches the people leave.
> Policemen moving very slowly.
> Banks quietly counting money.
> What will entertain us next?
> Lights high above the city.
> 
> *************************
> 
> from Venus Drive:
> 
> Everybody wanted everything to be gleaming again, or maybe they just wanted
> their evening back. Everybody was from everywhere, had gathered here to hide
> from the daylight. Some of these people sat around a marble table with straws
> in their hands. It looked like they were waiting for lemonade. They were
> trying to get my friend Gary on the phone to get more lemonade. It was early,
> late, lockjaw hour.
> 
> "Is it like this in Geneva?" I said to a man at the table. I was new here,
> recommended to the straw people by Gary. I felt like the pupil of a great
> instructor out alone in the dead city.
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe from: BigSmallPressMall, just follow this link:
> 
> http://www.bigsmallpressmall.com/mojo/mojo.cgi?f=u&l=bspmmail&e=jforjames at aol.
> 
> com&p=5118
> 
> Click the link, or copy and paste the address into your browser.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Nov 13 15:22:29 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:22:29 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2002 Bobbitt Poetry Prize Awarded to Alice Fulton
Message-ID: <77.2078766.2b040e85@aol.com>

2002 Bobbitt Poetry Prize Awarded to Alice Fulton

The 2002 Rebekah Johnson Bobbitt National Prize for Poetry will be
awarded to Alice Fulton on Thursday, Dec. 5 at 8 p.m. in the Mumford
Room, sixth floor, James Madison Memorial Building. This year's
prize, the seventh to be given, was awarded to Fulton for her book,
"Felt," published in 2001 by W. W. Norton. A public reception
honoring Fulton will follow her reading.


From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 13 15:41:43 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:41:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Kenneth Fearing, "X Minus X"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEDIFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

X Minus X

Even when your friend, the radio, is still; even when her dream,
	the magazine, is finished; even when his life, the ticker, is
	silent; even when their destiny, the boulevard, is bare;
And after that paradise, the dance-hall, is closed; after that the-
	ater, the clinic, is dark,

Still there will be your desire, and hers, and his hopes and theirs,
Your laughter, their laughter,
Your curse and his curse, her reward and their reward, their
	dismay and his dismay and her dismay and yours--

Even when your enemy, the collector, is dead; even when your
	counsellor, the salesman is sleeping; even when your
	sweetheart, the movie queen, has spoken; even when your
	friend, the magnate, is gone.

--Kenneth Fearing

fr. *New and Selected Poems*
[Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1956]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 13 15:59:18 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:59:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Kenneth Fearing, "Dividends"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEDKFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Dividends

This advantage to be seized; and here, an escape prepared against
	an evil day;
So it is arranged, consummately, to meet the issues. Convenience
	and order. Necessary murder and divorce. A decent repute.

Such are the plans, in clear detail.
She thought it was too soon but they said no, it was too late. They
	didn't trust the other people.
Sell now.
He was a fool to ignore the market. It could be explained, he said.
	With the woman, and after the theater she made a scene.
	None of them felt the crash for a long time.

(But what is swifter than time?)

So it is resolved, upon awakening. This way it is devised, prepar-
	ing for sleep. So it is revealed, uneasily, in strange dreams.
A defense against gray, hungry, envious millions. A veiled watch
	to be kept upon this friend.
Dread that handclasp. Seek this one. Smile.
They didn't trust the others. They were wary. It looked suspicious.
	They preferred to wait, they said.

Gentlemen, here is a statement for the third month,
And here, Mildred, is the easiest way.
Such is the evidence, convertible to profit. These are the divi-
	dends, waiting to be used.
Here are the demands again, considered again, and again the end-
	less issues are all secure.
Such are the facts. Such are the details. Such are the proofs.

Almighty God, these are the plans,
These are the plans until the last moment of the last hour of the
	last day,
And then the end. By error or accident.
Burke of cancer. Jackson out at the secret meeting of the board.
	Hendricks through the window of the nineteenth floor.
Maggots and darkness will attend the alibi.

Peace on earth. And the finer things.
So it is all devised.
Thomas, the car.

--Kenneth Fearing

fr. *New and Selected Poems*
[Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1956]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Thu Nov 14 09:58:11 2002
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:58:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] lyric on the blog
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021114094926.00aa2100@postoffice.brown.edu>

Ron Silliman's blog (http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com) is the site of an 
intriguing discussion on "lyric" between Ron, Kasey S. Mohammad, Tom Orange 
& others.  Some of it started on the Buffalo list.  Since I have access to 
neither of those lists (like the lyric according to Ron, those lists are 
"focused on the elements within") I'd like to try to start a parallel 
discussion here.

When I have more time I hope to say more, but for the moment, I'd say that 
Ron's "inner/outer", "lyric/social" distinctions seem like odd, if very 
generative, misreadings.  It's almost as though he's deflecting the 
hermetic tendencies of language poetry onto something he's calling the 
"abstract lyric".  But the issue of solipsism and subjectivity and 
aesthetic reification cannot be easily pigeonholed onto one genre or another.

later. . .
Henry G.



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Nov 14 14:19:14 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:19:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others
Message-ID: <B9F95352.3A5F%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Heart Murmur
?
"That little murmur wasn't there before,"
the doctor says, folding his stethoscope.
"The valves are stiffening a bit with age.
It's natural."? So is the hangman's rope.
?
I know my joints are losing that young-roe-
upon-the-mountains suppleness I thought
would last forever 20 years ago
(much like that blue Toyota that I bought).
?
The once-unheard-of word cholesterol
is now a lively presence in my blood.
Diets have been advised, and exercise,
and other boring measures meant for good.
?
But Nature's way is best.? I don't expect
to live forever, nor to nurture clones,
nor hold my breath waiting to resurrect
my fat-free, sugar-free, all-natural bones.
?
Gail White



From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Thu Nov 14 14:40:59 2002
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:40:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021114130224.00aaf900@postoffice.brown.edu>

Following up on previous post.  First I take back my characterization of 
Ron Silliman's analysis as "odd. . . misreading".  Written in haste on my 
way to a meeting, sorry.  There's nothing odd about his focus on some 
central issues of poetry, nothing misread in an analysis for which there is 
no canonical "reading".

In his latest post, Silliman rightly separates the technique of "close 
reading", on the one hand, from the more general attitude of aesthetic 
purism or self-sufficiency - the poem as autonomous object, removed from 
social contingency - an attitude ascribed to the New Critics.

But then he seems to accept that NC definition of lyric as his own  -  a 
lyric is "a poem of modest scale focused on the elements within".  This 
then is the canonical character of the lyric, the limits of which, he goes 
on to argue, are stretched by innovative poets such as Eigner and Mac 
Low.  Barbara Guest, on the other hand, would seem to represent, in his 
pantheon, the more canonical fulfillment of the hermetic, self-contained 
qualities of the lyric mode.

Ron & his interlocutors focus quite a bit on the issue of "unpacking" 
statements or meanings through close reading.  One finds a few general 
categories of poetry in this schema:  poetry whose lyric surface contains 
such "unpackable" material (Armantrout for example); poetry which resists 
any unpacking, which tends toward the word as untranslateable 
material/aesthetic object (Guest); poetry which challenges/expands the 
aesthetic container through innovative distortions/inclusions (Mac Low); 
2nd-rate imitative poetry which latches onto a superficial element of a 
more accomplished poet's rhetoric ("elliptical" epigones of Guest, for 
example).

Barbara Guest, however, has been associated with the NY School, and I think 
one of the clear traits of that style stems from the fact that it began in 
part as a reaction to the New Critical canon of the 40s & 50s.  The New 
York School poem demonstrated that aesthetic 
autonomy/integrity/self-sufficiency was not a product of the craftsmanlike 
creation of self-enclosed objects, whose jewel-like properties were 
produced through deep study of traditional styles & techniques.  The 
aesthetic attitude of the NY School was a rejection of the border between 
aesthetic/everyday or aesthetic/social which Ron seems to want to resurrect 
in another form.  Guest can be seen as a longtime practitioner/refiner of 
those attitudes, which the passing of decades seem to overlay with a sort 
of classic patina. The NY School attitude, as represented by Guest, Ashbery 
and many others, is that the poem is neither asocial NOR paraphraseable in 
terms of relevant social context; the underlying position is that of 
witty/rueful stance toward a society which denies a role to its own 
inherent and everyday poetry.  This is its context.

I think we have to be careful, if we are being critics & measuring the 
social relevance or importance or value of a particular style or of a 
poet's work, that we don't reduce the poetry to our own (necessarily 
abstract) notions about that social order.  Whether or not one can unpack 
social statements directly or indirectly from a work of art, the very 
existence of a work of art implies a new complexity arising from the 
dialectic of the two (art & society).

Henry

















From Henry_Gould at Brown.edu  Thu Nov 14 15:02:35 2002
From: Henry_Gould at Brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:02:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021114145240.00ab3d80@postoffice.brown.edu>

And as a follow-up to previous post. . .

I think you could contest Ron's definition of "the lyric" - as a poem 
"focused on the elements within" - based on that same NY School aesthetic 
of which Guest's work is an example.

I think the basic characteristic of the lyric, if you want to contrast 
it  to other modes of poetry, is that it emphasizes the musicality inherent 
in language.  The same musicality is at play in narrative, dramatic, epic, 
satirical, epigrammatic and discursive poetry - but lyric poetry brings 
musicality to the fore.  Is musicality the same as a "focus on elements 
within"?  That depends on your sense of the psychological, spiritual, 
social, political effect of music on experience.  I think the NY School, 
for one, would reject a border separating inner music from social reality.

Henry



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov 14 20:10:52 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:10:52 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard Speech Canceled
Message-ID: <10c.1a90bfc5.2b05a39c@aol.com>

Harvard Speech Canceled
Concerns Voiced on Poet's Words Against Israelis

by Patrick Healy

A Harvard University speech by an award-winning Irish poet was canceled
yesterday after Harvard president Lawrence H. Summers and several
professors and students complained about the poet's verbal attacks on
US-born Jewish settlers and Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

The poet, Tom Paulin, was scheduled to deliver a public reading on campus
tomorrow evening. While students and professors were organizing a boycott
of the speech, Summers expressed his own concerns about Paulin in two
recent conversations with members of Harvard's English department, which
had invited Paulin to speak.

Summers has become a prominent critic of what he sees as anti-Semitic
activities on college campuses.

Through a spokesman, Summers said yesterday, ''My position was that it was
for the department to decide, and I believe the department has come to the
appropriate decision.''

Paulin, who also teaches at Oxford University, has been a longtime critic
of Israel on British television news programs and in his own writing; last
year, for instance, he published a poem referring to the Israeli Army as a
''Zionist SS.''

He gained notoriety this year when he was quoted in an Egyptian newspaper,
al-Ahram Weekly, describing Brooklyn-born Jews moving to Israeli
settlements as ''Nazis'' and ''racists'' and saying that they ''should be
shot dead.''

A Harvard official said yesterday that English department members were
''in ignorance'' about Paulin's views when they invited him last winter to
deliver the prestigious Morris Gray poetry reading. English department
members said Paulin's selection was based solely on his poetry, which has
explored sectarian violence in Northern Ireland and won several prizes,
including the Somerset Maugham Award.

The English department and Paulin mutually agreed to cancel the speech,
according to a Harvard statement. Efforts to reach Paulin at Oxford were
unsuccessful.

There was some division in Harvard's English department over the
cancellation, with two members telling the Globe that it was appropriate,
but another member saying it was ''an insult to free expression and the
department's independence.''

? Copyright 2002 Globe Newspaper Company


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov 14 20:17:20 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:17:20 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Possum Pouch
Message-ID: <93.262b2b72.2b05a520@aol.com>

From:         Dale Smith <dopossum at YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      New Possum Pouch

skankypossum.com/pouch.htm

featuring:

Joseph Lease and Thomas Fink: Narrative and Critique
Michael Boughn on Black Mountain?s 50th Anniversary
Steven Taylor?s Loveland
Jennifer Moxley?s The Sense Record and other poems
New books by Flood Editions
And more....



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov 14 20:30:22 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:30:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The People vs. Gertrude Stein
Message-ID: <122.1a75ba12.2b05a82e@aol.com>

From:         Gary Sullivan <gpsullivan at HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      The People vs. Gertrude Stein

          )
          ) U.S. Federal Court of General Complaints
          )
__________

November 8, 2002
                      The People vs. Gertrude Stein

1.     WHEREBY, Party is the first part of the party of the first part. That
part of the party. The party of the first part. The part of the party is in
part the first part. Part is in part the first party.
2.     WHEREBY, Second is the first part of the second party. The second
part is the party. The party of the second party.
3.     WHEREBY, there is no third party. Because there is no third party.
4.     The party of the first part brings forth this complaint against the
second party. The party of the first part is like that. Because the party of
the second part is beside that.
5.     And with and without the second part which is and without the first
part the second part can be complained to and then and how and all around we
the party of the second part think and found that it is.
6.     To begin the complaint there is no party. There is no party in part.
The party is done. And then the spreading, that was not accomplishing that
needed complaining and yet the second party was not so difficult as not all
in place. The party of the first part had no change. They were not
respected. The party of the first part were that, they did it so much in the
matter and this showed that that settlement was not condensed. It was spread
there. Any change was in the ends of the centre. A heap was heavy. The
second party did not change.
7.     If the complaint has the place then there is distribution to the
first part. That is not natural. There is a contradiction and naturally
returning there comes to be the party of the first part and the party of the
second part and the complaint. That can be seen from the complaint.
8.     If complaining is a size that is recognised as not a size but a
piece, comparing a complaint with what is not recognised but what is used as
it is held by complaining, complaining comes to be repeated. Complaining
comes to be repeated.

9.     SUPPOSE, they are put together;
10.    SUPPOSE, that there is an interruption, that complaining again they
are not changed as to position;
11.    SUPPOSE, all this and suppose that any two parties of whom are not
complaining;
12.    SUPPOSE, that the two parties are not consumed. Is there an exchange,
is there a resemblance to the complaint which is admitted to be there and
the document which can be seen. Is there. That was a question. There was no
certainty. Filing a complaint meant that any two were indifferent and yet
they were all connecting that, they were all connecting that consideration.
This did not determine rejoining a letter.

13.     Thank you for being there. Nobody has to care.
14.     Thank you for being here. Because you are not there.

Signed this ____ day of 2002

______________________________
(The Party of the First Part)

                                      Witnessed by:

                                      _______________________

                                      OFFICIAL SEAL OF NOTARY


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 15 06:40:40 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 04:40:40 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI: virus?
Message-ID: <3DD4DD37.D1472414@earthlink.net>

I keep getting "mail returned" & "addressee unknown" type messages from
servers, addressees etc. to whom I've never sent mail.  So, I suspect
there's some virus loose.  I even got one from a server saying my
computer might have the Leonardo virus.  But, my Norton anti-virus is
updated and a check reveals nothing.  Except for the message re
Leonardo, all the messages have been blank.

- Jim


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Nov 15 10:36:35 2002
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS  RICHARDS)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:36:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI: virus?
References: <3DD4DD37.D1472414@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <003101c28cbc$e65eada0$1a3affd1@ibm25310>

That happens to me a lot, too. And I occasionally get form letters from some
organization to whom I have not written, saying that an email has been
received from me containing a virus. McAfee says my system is clean.


Tad Richards
http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
art - poetry - links
www.opus40.org
Harvey Fite's monumental earth sculpture
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: "new-poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 6:40 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI: virus?


> I keep getting "mail returned" & "addressee unknown" type messages from
> servers, addressees etc. to whom I've never sent mail.  So, I suspect
> there's some virus loose.  I even got one from a server saying my
> computer might have the Leonardo virus.  But, my Norton anti-virus is
> updated and a check reveals nothing.  Except for the message re
> Leonardo, all the messages have been blank.
>
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ccooley at overdomain.com  Fri Nov 15 12:42:59 2002
From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:42:59 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] The People vs. Gertrude Stein
In-Reply-To: <20021115170102.B48ED10215@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKCEGKCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

Looks like Gertrude won.


> Message: 6
> From: JforJames at aol.com
> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:30:22 EST
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: [New-Poetry] The People vs. Gertrude Stein
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> From:         Gary Sullivan <gpsullivan at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      The People vs. Gertrude Stein
>
>           )
>           ) U.S. Federal Court of General Complaints
>           )
> __________
>
> November 8, 2002
>                       The People vs. Gertrude Stein
>
> 1.     WHEREBY, Party is the first part of the party of the first
> part. That
> part of the party. The party of the first part. The part of the
> party is in
> part the first part. Part is in part the first party.
> 2.     WHEREBY, Second is the first part of the second party. The second
> part is the party. The party of the second party.
> 3.     WHEREBY, there is no third party. Because there is no third party.
> 4.     The party of the first part brings forth this complaint against the
> second party. The party of the first part is like that. Because
> the party of
> the second part is beside that.
> 5.     And with and without the second part which is and without the first
> part the second part can be complained to and then and how and
> all around we
> the party of the second part think and found that it is.
> 6.     To begin the complaint there is no party. There is no
> party in part.
> The party is done. And then the spreading, that was not accomplishing that
> needed complaining and yet the second party was not so difficult
> as not all
> in place. The party of the first part had no change. They were not
> respected. The party of the first part were that, they did it so
> much in the
> matter and this showed that that settlement was not condensed. It
> was spread
> there. Any change was in the ends of the centre. A heap was heavy. The
> second party did not change.
> 7.     If the complaint has the place then there is distribution to the
> first part. That is not natural. There is a contradiction and naturally
> returning there comes to be the party of the first part and the
> party of the
> second part and the complaint. That can be seen from the complaint.
> 8.     If complaining is a size that is recognised as not a size but a
> piece, comparing a complaint with what is not recognised but what
> is used as
> it is held by complaining, complaining comes to be repeated. Complaining
> comes to be repeated.
>
> 9.     SUPPOSE, they are put together;
> 10.    SUPPOSE, that there is an interruption, that complaining again they
> are not changed as to position;
> 11.    SUPPOSE, all this and suppose that any two parties of whom are not
> complaining;
> 12.    SUPPOSE, that the two parties are not consumed. Is there
> an exchange,
> is there a resemblance to the complaint which is admitted to be there and
> the document which can be seen. Is there. That was a question.
> There was no
> certainty. Filing a complaint meant that any two were indifferent and yet
> they were all connecting that, they were all connecting that
> consideration.
> This did not determine rejoining a letter.
>
> 13.     Thank you for being there. Nobody has to care.
> 14.     Thank you for being here. Because you are not there.
>
> Signed this ____ day of 2002
>
> ______________________________
> (The Party of the First Part)
>
>                                       Witnessed by:
>
>                                       _______________________
>
>                                       OFFICIAL SEAL OF NOTARY
>
> --__--__--
>




From ccooley at overdomain.com  Fri Nov 15 12:42:59 2002
From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:42:59 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
In-Reply-To: <20021115170102.B48ED10215@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKAEGKCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

Henry,
Just to let you know I've read your lyric posts with interest, and followed
the link to Silliman's blog to get the origin of the discussion.  I do not
have anything to add now.  Perhaps later.

ps. Does Brown U still have a degree in Semiotics?  Last time I checked,
they were the only school in the US that offered
it as an undergraduate degree.

--Cris/man

> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:40:59 -0500
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> From: Henry Gould <Henry_Gould at brown.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> Following up on previous post.  First I take back my characterization of
> Ron Silliman's analysis as "odd. . . misreading".  Written in haste on my
> way to a meeting, sorry.  There's nothing odd about his focus on some
> central issues of poetry, nothing misread in an analysis for
> which there is
> no canonical "reading".
>
> In his latest post, Silliman rightly separates the technique of "close
> reading", on the one hand, from the more general attitude of aesthetic
> purism or self-sufficiency - the poem as autonomous object, removed from
> social contingency - an attitude ascribed to the New Critics.
>
> But then he seems to accept that NC definition of lyric as his own  -  a
> lyric is "a poem of modest scale focused on the elements within".  This
> then is the canonical character of the lyric, the limits of
> which, he goes
> on to argue, are stretched by innovative poets such as Eigner and Mac
> Low.  Barbara Guest, on the other hand, would seem to represent, in his
> pantheon, the more canonical fulfillment of the hermetic, self-contained
> qualities of the lyric mode.
>
> Ron & his interlocutors focus quite a bit on the issue of "unpacking"
> statements or meanings through close reading.  One finds a few general
> categories of poetry in this schema:  poetry whose lyric surface contains
> such "unpackable" material (Armantrout for example); poetry which resists
> any unpacking, which tends toward the word as untranslateable
> material/aesthetic object (Guest); poetry which challenges/expands the
> aesthetic container through innovative distortions/inclusions (Mac Low);
> 2nd-rate imitative poetry which latches onto a superficial element of a
> more accomplished poet's rhetoric ("elliptical" epigones of Guest, for
> example).
>
> Barbara Guest, however, has been associated with the NY School,
> and I think
> one of the clear traits of that style stems from the fact that it
> began in
> part as a reaction to the New Critical canon of the 40s & 50s.  The New
> York School poem demonstrated that aesthetic
> autonomy/integrity/self-sufficiency was not a product of the
> craftsmanlike
> creation of self-enclosed objects, whose jewel-like properties were
> produced through deep study of traditional styles & techniques.  The
> aesthetic attitude of the NY School was a rejection of the border between
> aesthetic/everyday or aesthetic/social which Ron seems to want to
> resurrect
> in another form.  Guest can be seen as a longtime practitioner/refiner of
> those attitudes, which the passing of decades seem to overlay with a sort
> of classic patina. The NY School attitude, as represented by
> Guest, Ashbery
> and many others, is that the poem is neither asocial NOR
> paraphraseable in
> terms of relevant social context; the underlying position is that of
> witty/rueful stance toward a society which denies a role to its own
> inherent and everyday poetry.  This is its context.
>
> I think we have to be careful, if we are being critics & measuring the
> social relevance or importance or value of a particular style or of a
> poet's work, that we don't reduce the poetry to our own (necessarily
> abstract) notions about that social order.  Whether or not one can unpack
> social statements directly or indirectly from a work of art, the very
> existence of a work of art implies a new complexity arising from the
> dialectic of the two (art & society).
>
> Henry
>
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:02:35 -0500
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> From: Henry Gould <Henry_Gould at Brown.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> And as a follow-up to previous post. . .
>
> I think you could contest Ron's definition of "the lyric" - as a poem
> "focused on the elements within" - based on that same NY School aesthetic
> of which Guest's work is an example.
>
> I think the basic characteristic of the lyric, if you want to contrast
> it  to other modes of poetry, is that it emphasizes the
> musicality inherent
> in language.  The same musicality is at play in narrative,
> dramatic, epic,
> satirical, epigrammatic and discursive poetry - but lyric poetry brings
> musicality to the fore.  Is musicality the same as a "focus on elements
> within"?  That depends on your sense of the psychological, spiritual,
> social, political effect of music on experience.  I think the NY School,
> for one, would reject a border separating inner music from social reality.
>
> Henry




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Nov 15 14:01:48 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:01:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard speech cancelled
Message-ID: <B9FAA0BC.3A74%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

This post illustrates a serious problem with free speech on campuses, though
in a rare twist, in this one it's the anti-Semitism of a leftist
writer/speaker that has sparked outrage and cancellation. A related problem
sometimes occurs when a guest speaker says something controversial, forcing
the sponsoring group to issue apologies to the offended groups, as happened
recently at Georgetown U. when a speaker criticized the treatment of
non-Muslims in Muslim countries, causing the Jewish students who sponsored
the talk to abase themselves and apologize to offended student Muslims. The
facts of the talk were undisputed, but they made the offended group take
offense. "Sensitivity" is often a mask for one-sidedness and
double-standards and a cause of much censorship.

Paul Lake




Harvard Speech Canceled
Concerns Voiced on Poet's Words Against Israelis

by Patrick Healy

A Harvard University speech by an award-winning Irish poet was canceled
yesterday after Harvard president Lawrence H. Summers and several
professors and students complained about the poet's verbal attacks on
US-born Jewish settlers and Israel's treatment of Palestinians.

The poet, Tom Paulin, was scheduled to deliver a public reading on campus
tomorrow evening. While students and professors were organizing a boycott
of the speech, Summers expressed his own concerns about Paulin in two
recent conversations with members of Harvard's English department, which
had invited Paulin to speak.

Summers has become a prominent critic of what he sees as anti-Semitic
activities on college campuses.

Through a spokesman, Summers said yesterday, ''My position was that it was
for the department to decide, and I believe the department has come to the
appropriate decision.''

Paulin, who also teaches at Oxford University, has been a longtime critic
of Israel on British television news programs and in his own writing; last
year, for instance, he published a poem referring to the Israeli Army as a
''Zionist SS.''

He gained notoriety this year when he was quoted in an Egyptian newspaper,
al-Ahram Weekly, describing Brooklyn-born Jews moving to Israeli
settlements as ''Nazis'' and ''racists'' and saying that they ''should be
shot dead.''

A Harvard official said yesterday that English department members were
''in ignorance'' about Paulin's views when they invited him last winter to
deliver the prestigious Morris Gray poetry reading. English department
members said Paulin's selection was based solely on his poetry, which has
explored sectarian violence in Northern Ireland and won several prizes,
including the Somerset Maugham Award.

The English department and Paulin mutually agreed to cancel the speech,
according to a Harvard statement. Efforts to reach Paulin at Oxford were
unsuccessful.

There was some division in Harvard's English department over the
cancellation, with two members telling the Globe that it was appropriate,
but another member saying it was ''an insult to free expression and the
department's independence.''

? Copyright 2002 Globe Newspaper Company



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 15 20:17:03 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:17:03 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI: virus?
References: <3DD4DD37.D1472414@earthlink.net> <003101c28cbc$e65eada0$1a3affd1@ibm25310>
Message-ID: <3DD59C8E.62EA1CB5@earthlink.net>

Here's an explanation (sort of) I got from another list.  It seems to
jibe with our experiences.

- Jim

Alisa Chevalier wrote:
> 
>         Someone is most likely using your address as a spoof. its not really
> coming from your computer. a computer with the virus will take the mailing
> list on it and will spoof many of the addresses with plausible sounding
> titles and send them out with virus's attached. Its Ingenious actually. I've
> gotten a couple bounces back from my system with my email on it that were
> never sent from this system. It was even spoofing our main server. So rest
> assured if you've checked your system and it says nada, you are safe. If I
> haven't been clear which happens quite often *Grin* just let me know and I
> shall be more than happy to elucidate
> 

OTIS RICHARDS wrote:
> 
> That happens to me a lot, too. And I occasionally get form letters from some
> organization to whom I have not written, saying that an email has been
> received from me containing a virus. McAfee says my system is clean.
> 
> Tad Richards
> http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
> art - poetry - links
> www.opus40.org
> Harvey Fite's monumental earth sculpture
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> To: "new-poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 6:40 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] FYI: virus?
> 
> > I keep getting "mail returned" & "addressee unknown" type messages from
> > servers, addressees etc. to whom I've never sent mail.  So, I suspect
> > there's some virus loose.  I even got one from a server saying my
> > computer might have the Leonardo virus.  But, my Norton anti-virus is
> > updated and a check reveals nothing.  Except for the message re
> > Leonardo, all the messages have been blank.
> >
> > - Jim
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 16 08:02:54 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 06:02:54 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] [Fwd: Mississippi River Documentary]
Message-ID: <3DD641FE.74258F69@earthlink.net>

I haven't been any closer than 30,000 feet (vertical) to the Mississippi
River in years, but maybe someone on this list has and would be
interested in this Codrescu project. - Jim

> 
>   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Mississippi River Documentary
> Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 02:12:18 -0600
> From: Andrei Codrescu<corpse at corpse.org>
> To: jcervantes at mail.mc.maricopa.edu
> 
> Dear Friends of the Corpse:
> 
> We are going to shoot a documentary film about the Mississippi River this
> coming Spring, and are soliciting ideas from our friends. Those of you who
> live on the river are doubtlessly involved with the "continental trough,"
> (Faulkner) or "the brown god" (Eliot) in ways we can't begin to dream about.
> We are looking for art performances that engage the river itself or some
> entity that affects the river. For instance, if Miss River Bridge crashes a
> public meeting of some sort, we want to be there. We are hoping that you
> could dream up an event, visual and expressive hopefully, that will
> encapsulate in an interactive way the river and what role it plays in your
> life/art. We are, of course, interested in the ecology of the beast, but also
> in its political cultures, music, folklore, poetry. This is not an
> institutionally sanctioned project, so you can let your darkest or oddest
> ideas fly. Write back to me directly:
> 
> andrei at corpse.org
> 
> Yours in the flow,
> 
> Andrei Codrescu
> 
> http://www.codrescu.com
> http://www.corpse.org


From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov 16 13:06:54 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:06:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
Message-ID: <15a.17816245.2b07e33e@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/14/02 3:06:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Henry_Gould at Brown.edu writes:

> And as a follow-up to previous post. . .
>  
>  I think you could contest Ron's definition of "the lyric" - as a poem 
>  "focused on the elements within" - based on that same NY School aesthetic 
>  of which Guest's work is an example.
>  
>  I think the basic characteristic of the lyric, if you want to contrast 
>  it  to other modes of poetry, is that it emphasizes the musicality 
inherent 
>  in language.  The same musicality is at play in narrative, dramatic, epic, 
>  satirical, epigrammatic and discursive poetry - but lyric poetry brings 
>  musicality to the fore.  Is musicality the same as a "focus on elements 
>  within"?  That depends on your sense of the psychological, spiritual, 
>  social, political effect of music on experience.  I think the NY School, 
>  for one, would reject a border separating inner music from social reality.
>  
>  Henry
>  
Henry, I think the first and primary impetus of the lyric is
toward the outer, an outpouring. The lyric is rooted in song.
The subjective self, often in a heightened emotional state, 
seeks a pure and radical engagement with to the outer world 
or with the other, often the beloved. Of course the other mode
is the meditative (and I think Eliot suggested this mode
should subsume the more primitive and personal response
of the traditional lyric). This secondary mode is inward and 
psychologically exploratory. Less an outpouring than an involution. 
It seems to me that this is the kind of lyric as practiced by a 
Mallarme or a Guest. O'Hara certainly tilted to the first impulse. 
Finnegan


From mandolin at mac.com  Sun Nov 17 19:52:58 2002
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:52:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
In-Reply-To: <15a.17816245.2b07e33e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <14ADF6AC-FA90-11D6-A4CB-000393C29586@mac.com>

James and Henry--

your discussions here were interesting enough to send me to the blog,  
where (sorry, Ron) I found myself thinking of Hamlet reading "Words,  
words, words," especially in the discussion of Barbara Guest that  
started it all:  
http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/ 
2002_11_01_ronsilliman_archive.html#83955338
Could be that writing code has made me stupid, but I take comfort from  
Auden:

So started what I'll call the Poet's Party:
       (Most of the guests were painters, never mind)--
The first few hours the atmosphere was hearty,
       With fireworks, fun, and games of every kind;
       All were enjoying it, no one was blind;
Brilliant the speeches improvised, the dances,
And brilliant, too, the technical advances.

How nice at first to watch the passers-by
       Out of the upper window, and to say
'How glad I am that though I have to die
       Like all those cattle, I'm less base than they!'
       How we all roared when Baudelaire went fey.
'See this cigar,' he said, 'it's Baudelaire's.
What happens to perception? Ah, who cares.?"

Today, alas, that happy crowded floor
       Looks very different: many are in tears:
Some have retired to bed and looked the door;
       And some swing madly from the chandeliers;
       Some have passed out entirely in the rears;
Some have been sick in the corners; the sobering few
Are trying hard to think of something new.



From gmguddi at ilstu.edu  Mon Nov 18 00:34:02 2002
From: gmguddi at ilstu.edu (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 23:34:02 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Mairead Byrne
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021117233301.01762fe8@mail.ilstu.edu>


DIRECTIONS FOR THE DEAD


SNOW FALLING ON THE OUTSKIRTS OF THE CITY.
                                                 DISSOLVE TO:
SNOW FALLING ON A VAST LANDSCAPE.
                                                 DISSOLVE TO:
SNOW FALLING ON BARE HILLS.
                                                 DISSOLVE TO:
SNOW FALLING ON A BOG.
                                                 DISSOLVE TO:
SNOW FALLING INTO THE TURBID WATERS OF A LARGE RIVER.
                                                 DISSOLVE TO:
A DISTANT HILL WITH A LONELY CHURCHYARD AT THE TOP.

CLOSER SHOT OF CHURCHYARD.
SNOW LYING THICKLY DRIFTED ON CROOKED CROSSES AND HEADSTONES.
SNOW ON THE SPEARS OF THE LITTLE GATE.
SNOW FALLING ON A DESERTED BIRD'S NEST.
SNOW FALLING ON ONE SPECIFIC GRAVE.
SNOW FALLING ON BARREN THORNS.
PAN UP TO INFINITE SNOW FALLING.
                                         FADE OUT:
THE END


                                                 -- Mairead Byrne
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From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Mon Nov 18 08:10:12 2002
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:10:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
In-Reply-To: <15a.17816245.2b07e33e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021118080351.00aa9310@postoffice.brown.edu>

Well-put, Finnegan.  Unfortunately plugging "music" in the definition, as I 
did, is not much of an improvement over Ron's.  I guess I would ask Ron, if 
he's listening - does the lyric impulse, as characterized here, have a 
social purpose or sanction, in your view?  Or is poetry only serious when 
it transcends "the lyric", showing evidence of a critical or social 
consciousness?  I may be assuming too much, but this seems to be the trend 
of your argument - the position implied by characterizing "lyric" as an 
internally-directed disposition.

Henry


> >
>Henry, I think the first and primary impetus of the lyric is
>toward the outer, an outpouring. The lyric is rooted in song.
>The subjective self, often in a heightened emotional state,
>seeks a pure and radical engagement with to the outer world
>or with the other, often the beloved. Of course the other mode
>is the meditative (and I think Eliot suggested this mode
>should subsume the more primitive and personal response
>of the traditional lyric). This secondary mode is inward and
>psychologically exploratory. Less an outpouring than an involution.
>It seems to me that this is the kind of lyric as practiced by a
>Mallarme or a Guest. O'Hara certainly tilted to the first impulse.
>Finnegan
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Nov 18 08:26:34 2002
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:26:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] recently on the Blog
Message-ID: <000001c28f06$223b90e0$bc06c143@Dell>

Kevin Davies on nox:
The genre of the Lost Book

Robert Duncan's NY School poem:
The politics of the Berkeley Poetry Conference of '65

Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

For bean counting:
The abstract lyric & New Criticism

K. Silem Mohammad & Tom Orange
on the abstract lyric & the social in poetry

Reading new poetry:
Thom Donovan in Kiosk 1

Reading new poetry: 
Richard Deming in Mirage #4 / Period(ical) #104

Ashbery's ear: "The Hod Carrier"
& a link to Tom Devaney's review of Ashbery's Chinese Whispers

What is revision & where do we find it?
(Frank Stanford's The Battlefield where the Moon says I Love You)


http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/








From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 18 17:06:21 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:06:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Bernadette Mayer, "Sonnets: The Landlord . . ."
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEJEFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Sonnets: The Landlord Was Thrown Out of the Rent Stabilization Group

I

The landlord was thrown out of the rent stabilization group
Because he did so many wrong and bad things
We don't know what this means yet
& whether our rent will go down or up
If that's a punishment for us or him
He who's harrassed us all this time
Then we harrassed him this is not like love
Now finally he's thrown out we threw him out long ago
Of the possible ways of being human
& so maybe it's kind that he's now out of time
With his colleagues because of his manipulations
I don't like the landlord's hand so much that I am happy but
	Why's he been so derelict like a lover
	As to let things go this far?

II

It's impossible sometimes for the woman not to think of the landlord
if he's a man as a father, that's what some of the old women in the
building have told me, you wouldn't want to live with him, this is why
nobody ceases to pay their rent or goes on rent strike or is willing to
face another father-judge in the courts, do you remember how your
kids' teachers, if you have them, can make you feel nervous in that
same way, the authorities avoid them. So it is right the landlord is a
man, his agent is a woman who is so prevasively divisive as to be
inhuman I wont talk to her she makes me want to weep I wont lie
down I wont give a tip to the landlord's pimp, could this be a sonnet?
I wonder on it, who is who and what is what. I don't live in this build-
ing by accident this is my reservation I live with the sleeping lions I
was reminded cars were when you crossed in the middle of the street
that they thought I actually owed them something just at the moment
they woke up to roar at me and you and perhaps eat us.

--Bernadette Mayer

fr. *Sonnets* [New York: Tender Buttons, 1989]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Nov 18 21:46:01 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:46:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Magazine Windfall
Message-ID: <200211190244.gAJ2itKD029646@mx2.mx.voyager.net>

I've heard some chatter on other lists about this philanthropy, but unless
I've lost my mind, nothing yet on NewPo.  A pretty amazing windfall for
Poetry.  
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

=======================================

Heiress gives millions to poetry journal
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS 

11/18/2002 10:01 AM


CHICAGO - The influential literary magazine "Poetry" had rejected Ruth
Lilly's verse for decades, but it's not about to snub her latest offering -
a multimillion-dollar gift.

The ailing billionaire heiress to the Eli Lilly pharmaceutical fortune will
give the publication millions of dollars a year under a new estate plan. The
journal ran the first major works of Carl Sandburg, T.S. Eliot and Wallace
Stevens.

"Ruth Lilly has ensured our existence into perpetuity," Poetry editor Joe
Parisi said in announcing the gift Friday at a dinner at the Arts Club of
Chicago.

"Poetry," founded in 1912, frequently has had less than $100
in its till.

The exact amount of the gift will fluctuate with the value of Eli Lilly
stock. But conservative estimates put the first installment in January at
$10 million and the total over 30 years at more than $100 million. The gift
comes with no strings attached.

Lilly, the last surviving great-grandchild of Eli Lilly, founder of the
pharmaceutical giant, first started sending poems to the journal in the
early 1970s.

Parisi thought her poems were good but did not meet the standards of a
monthly that has published works by William Butler Yeats, W.H. Auden and
Dylan Thomas.

Over the years, Lilly has warmed to Parisi's handwritten rejection notes.

In 1986, she established the Ruth Lilly Poetry Prize, which has grown to
$100,000. She also has sponsored two $15,000 annual fellowships via the
magazine, as well as a professorship in poetry at Indiana University.

Deborah Cummins is president of the board of trustees of Modern Poetry
Association, which oversees the magazine. She said the group would seek to
increase its educational programs, devise seminars for teachers, expand
grants and fellowships and increase its 

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From cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov 19 09:11:31 2002
From: cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net (cindymonroe)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:11:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lilly Donation to Poetry Magazine
References: <20021118170101.9EAAB10207@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <000d01c28fd5$90caa1c0$b6e23ccc@net>


From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 19 09:54:06 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:54:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Bernadette Mayer, "Incandescent War Poem Sonnet"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEKAFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Incandescent War Poem Sonnet

Even before I saw the chambered nautilus
I wanted to sail not in the us navy
Tonight I'm waiting for you, your letter
At the same time his letter, the view of you
By him and then by me in the park, no rhymes
I saw you, this is in prose, no it's not
Sitting with the molluscs & anemones in an
Empty autumn enterprise baby you look pretty
With your long eventual hair, is love king?
What's this? A sonnet? Love's a babe we know that
I'm coming up, I'm coming, Shakespeare only stuck
To one subject but I'll mention nobody said
You have to get young Americans some ice cream
In the artificial light in which she woke

--Bernadette Mayer

fr. *Sonnets* [New York: Tender Buttons, 1989]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 19 10:25:31 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:25:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lilly Donation to Poetry Magazine
Message-ID: <1c5.1cf3d7d.2b0bb1eb@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/19/02 9:11:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net writes:

> small literary journal has given that journal an astonishing
>  bequest that is likely to be worth more than $100 million.
Good for Poetry. Not as good for poetry.
She could have been sower of good fortune
over a wider field.
Finnegan


From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 19 10:38:46 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:38:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lilly Donation to Poetry Magazine
In-Reply-To: <1c5.1cf3d7d.2b0bb1eb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEKEFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Just to put this in perspective, the Lilly bequest wouldn't
buy "us" even one F-22 fighter plane.

	http://www.cdi.org/issues/budget/FY03weapons-pr.cfm

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Nov 19 11:26:11 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:26:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
References: <15a.17816245.2b07e33e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <025a01c28fe8$5feac040$369efea9@j1c1k6>

This thread has gotten an interesting start and promises to remain
interesting.  But I want to throw in a question before getting further in it
(and I'm now catching up with New-Poetry after being out of town for a
week).  So far the definitions of "lyric poetry" seem leaky to me.  As a
fanatical taxonomist, I would like to know what kind of poetry is NOT lyric
poetry.  Offhand, I can only think of two kinds of serious poetry: lyrical
poetry and narrative poetry.  The first evokes a mood, the second tells a
story.  Of course, there are blends of the two--perhaps almost always.

--Bob G.



From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 19 11:38:05 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:38:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
In-Reply-To: <025a01c28fe8$5feac040$369efea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEKGFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    Offhand, I can only think of two kinds of serious poetry: lyrical
{    poetry and narrative poetry.  The first evokes a mood, the second tells a
{    story.  Of course, there are blends of the two--perhaps almost always.

As I recall, the traditional types of poetry were three: lyric, narrative, and
dramatic. 

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Nov 19 12:01:11 2002
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:01:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
Message-ID: <4690726.1037725271165.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, Nov 19, 2002, at 11:38AM, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:

>{    Offhand, I can only think of two kinds of serious poetry: lyrical
>{    poetry and narrative poetry.  The first evokes a mood, the second tells a
>{    story.  Of course, there are blends of the two--perhaps almost always.
>
>As I recall, the traditional types of poetry were three: lyric, narrative, and
>dramatic. 

On the blog, the discussion focuses on a particluar kind of lyric--the abstract lyric--as initially exemplified by parts of one of Barbara Guest's poem "Defensive Rapture," discussed here: http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/2002_11_01_ronsilliman_archive.html#83955338


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 19 12:31:13 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:31:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lilly Donation to Poetry Magazine
Message-ID: <1ba.9ac646c.2b0bcf61@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/19/02 10:41:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:

> Just to put this in perspective, the Lilly bequest wouldn't
>  buy "us" even one F-22 fighter plane.
But the editor of Poetry can now afford a Leer,
which will make it easier to scout talented scopas
singing in the hinterlands of America.
Finnegan


From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 19 12:43:44 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:43:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lilly Donation to Poetry Magazine
In-Reply-To: <1ba.9ac646c.2b0bcf61@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEKIFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

    
{    > Just to put this in perspective, the Lilly bequest wouldn't
{    >  buy "us" even one F-22 fighter plane.

{    But the editor of Poetry can now afford a Leer,
{    which will make it easier to scout talented scopas
{    singing in the hinterlands of America.
{    Finnegan

That's *without* stealth capability, however.

Hal         This Is Not A Passenger Elevator

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Nov 19 12:50:07 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:50:07 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lilly Donation to Poetry Magazine
Message-ID: <1bd.14da2ce1.2b0bd3cf@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/19/2002 11:46:22 AM Central Standard Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:


> But the editor of Poetry can now afford a Leer,
> {    which will make it easier to scout talented scopas
> {    singing in the hinterlands of America.
> {    Finnegan
> 

Editors have been scouting out prospective poets with leers for many years 
now.
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From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Tue Nov 19 13:22:10 2002
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:22:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
In-Reply-To: <4690726.1037725271165.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021119131440.00abf670@postoffice.brown.edu>

>Michael wrote:
>On the blog, the discussion focuses on a particluar kind of lyric--the 
>abstract lyric--as initially exemplified by parts of one of Barbara 
>Guest's poem "Defensive Rapture," discussed here: 
>http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/2002_11_01_ronsilliman_archive.html#83955338


Yes, this is the point.  & perhaps our re-definitions or 
counter-definitions are beside the point, if Ron is trying to label a 
narrow sub-species of "lyric".  The curious thing is that he does seem to 
be trying to differentiate lyrics with subtext (an identifiable social 
commentary) and lyrics which resist interpretation or paraphrase.  The 
former with examples of poets loosely identified the "language school", the 
latter with NY School "graduate" Guest & her elliptical imitators.

Henry




From dbarone at sjc.edu  Tue Nov 19 13:41:26 2002
From: dbarone at sjc.edu (Barone, Dennis)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:41:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] lilly
Message-ID: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249001BA18D8@sjcmail.sjc.edu>

I took a quick look at the announcement of huge gift to POETRY magazine.  I
have nothing against POETRY, but I think that gift disgusting, awful, and
misguided.

 

Dennis Barone

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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Tue Nov 19 14:27:46 2002
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:27:46 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] lilly gift
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86FD7@mail.ripon.edu>

*Poetry* probably vies with *APR* for the status of
publication-poets-most-love-to-hate, and my guess is that that fact is
related to their relatively high-profiles.  In other words, I'm fairly
certain that people would take potshots at them no matter what they actually
published.  

The Lilly gift could have been handled in a thousand different ways, true
enough.  And it's a terrible shame that I didn't get a few million myself.
But at least she didn't give her money to  Poetry.com or something horrid
like that.

I'm going to wait until I see what *Poetry* does with the money before I
decide that it's a terrible waste, myself.  Supporting poets in the schools
sounds like a pretty good idea to me.  I suppose we all could send Parisi &
Co. some suggestions.  One thing I'd love to see would be a huge archive of
recordings of contemporary poets--something much more extensive than the
"Poets in Person" series that Parisi did--and available in all sorts of
media.

In fact, I think I *will* send Parisi some suggestions. . . .  What else do
we think should be done with this money?

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Barone, Dennis
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, November 19, 2002 12:41 PM
> To: 	'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] lilly
> 
> I took a quick look at the announcement of huge gift to POETRY magazine.
> I have nothing against POETRY, but I think that gift disgusting, awful,
> and misguided.
> 
>  
> 
> Dennis Barone
> 
> 


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Nov 19 14:35:04 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:35:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lilly Donation to Poetry Magazine
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEKEFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <045f01c29002$c31bab60$369efea9@j1c1k6>

> Just to put this in perspective, the Lilly bequest wouldn't
> buy "us" even one F-22 fighter plane.


Just to put it in a different perspective, the Lilly bequest would buy a
lifetime of leisure (after taxes) to write poetry for 500 poets (assuming
they were reasonably capable money-managers).

--Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Nov 19 14:41:07 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:41:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEKGFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <046d01c29003$9ba245c0$369efea9@j1c1k6>

> {    Offhand, I can only think of two kinds of serious poetry: lyrical
> {    poetry and narrative poetry.  The first evokes a mood, the second
tells a
> {    story.  Of course, there are blends of the two--perhaps almost
always.
>
> As I recall, the traditional types of poetry were three: lyric, narrative,
and
> dramatic.
>
> Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Thanks, Hal--I'd forgotten dramatic poetry.  Still not sure it deserves a
major category of its own.  Much dramatic poetry, for me, is narrative
poetry.  Most, possibly all, the rest is lyric poetry.  The poetry in verse
drama is something else--that is, the division into lyric and one or more
other kinds of poetry comes after the division of literature into drama,
poetry, etc.

--Bob G.



From rbianchi at cmpprinceton.com  Tue Nov 19 08:36:25 2002
From: rbianchi at cmpprinceton.com (rbianchi at cmpprinceton.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:36:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: recently on the Blog
In-Reply-To: <000001c28f06$223b90e0$bc06c143@Dell>
Message-ID: <B9FFA888.462E%rbianchi@cmpprinceton.com>

Hello Listserv.

Do the names Pound, Bernstein, Blau Du Plessis Antin, Spahr make you perk up
and take notice? My name is Ray Bianchi and I am a poet who is new to the
area and after months of searching for a workshop/critique group in the
Philadelphia/NJ area I have given up and I am now going to try to launch my
own.  If you are interested in craft, language or non-confessional modes of
poetry send me an email and lets see if we can work together?

Ray 
















On 11/18/02 8:26 AM, "Ron" <ron.silliman at verizon.net> wrote:

> Kevin Davies on nox:
> The genre of the Lost Book
> 
> Robert Duncan's NY School poem:
> The politics of the Berkeley Poetry Conference of '65
> 
> Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar
> 
> For bean counting:
> The abstract lyric & New Criticism
> 
> K. Silem Mohammad & Tom Orange
> on the abstract lyric & the social in poetry
> 
> Reading new poetry:
> Thom Donovan in Kiosk 1
> 
> Reading new poetry:
> Richard Deming in Mirage #4 / Period(ical) #104
> 
> Ashbery's ear: "The Hod Carrier"
> & a link to Tom Devaney's review of Ashbery's Chinese Whispers
> 
> What is revision & where do we find it?
> (Frank Stanford's The Battlefield where the Moon says I Love You)
> 
> 
> http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Raymond L Bianchi
Show Director

Si: Source International
January 12-14 2003
Jacob Javits Center New York

CMP Princeton
125 Village Boulevard-Suite 220
Princeton, New Jersey, USA 08540
www.sifair.com
rbianchi at cmpprinceton.com
Telephone  +609-452-2800
Fax                 +609-452-2875




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Nov 19 15:06:43 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 15:06:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] lilly gift
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86FD7@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <04a701c29007$300b1a40$369efea9@j1c1k6>

> *Poetry* probably vies with *APR*

and the New Yorker


> for the status of
> publication-poets-most-love-to-hate, and my guess is that that fact is
> related to their relatively high-profiles.  In other words, I'm fairly
> certain that people would take potshots at them no matter what they
actually
> published.

> The Lilly gift could have been handled in a thousand different ways, true
> enough.  And it's a terrible shame that I didn't get a few million myself.
> But at least she didn't give her money to  Poetry.com or something horrid
> like that.
>
> I'm going to wait until I see what *Poetry* does with the money before I
> decide that it's a terrible waste, myself.  Supporting poets in the
schools
> sounds like a pretty good idea to me.  I suppose we all could send Parisi
&
> Co. some suggestions.  One thing I'd love to see would be a huge archive
of
> recordings of contemporary poets--something much more extensive than the
> "Poets in Person" series that Parisi did--and available in all sorts of
> media.
>
> In fact, I think I *will* send Parisi some suggestions. . . .  What else
do
> we think should be done with this money?

Hey, great question, David.  *I* think what we should do is . . .  ooops.
Sorry.

--Bob G.



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 19 15:57:53 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:57:53 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: lyric in the blog
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEKGFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3DDAA5D2.23C8137E@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> {    Offhand, I can only think of two kinds of serious poetry: lyrical
> {    poetry and narrative poetry.  The first evokes a mood, the second tells a
> {    story.  Of course, there are blends of the two--perhaps almost always.
> 
> As I recall, the traditional types of poetry were three: lyric, narrative, and
> dramatic.

Adding to Poetry 101:  And any of the three may have elements of the
others, to some degree or another.

-Jim


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 19 20:06:22 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:06:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] lilly gift
Message-ID: <6a.29637baa.2b0c3a0e@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/19/02 2:29:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
GrahamD at ripon.edu writes:

> One thing I'd love to see would be a huge archive of
>  recordings of contemporary poets--something much more extensive than the
>  "Poets in Person" series that Parisi did--and available in all sorts of
>  media.
David,
That's a good idea...& perhaps a website where you get free MP3
downloads of poems, so you can burn your favorite poetry mix.
And how 'bout a publishing house that did at least a two dozen
poetry titles per year without running the poets thru a 
contest treadmill.
But so far I don't think we've burned thru a cool mill.
Finnegan


From languagethief at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 19 20:14:01 2002
From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:14:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] lilly gift
In-Reply-To: <6a.29637baa.2b0c3a0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20021120011401.65763.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com>

I think we need a mammoth grant to create a thorough
taxonomy of all schools of American poetry. Let's
see...who could we put in charge of it...?

Tad




--- JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 11/19/02 2:29:21 PM Eastern
> Standard Time, 
> GrahamD at ripon.edu writes:
> 
> > One thing I'd love to see would be a huge archive
> of
> >  recordings of contemporary poets--something much
> more extensive than the
> >  "Poets in Person" series that Parisi did--and
> available in all sorts of
> >  media.
> David,
> That's a good idea...& perhaps a website where you
> get free MP3
> downloads of poems, so you can burn your favorite
> poetry mix.
> And how 'bout a publishing house that did at least a
> two dozen
> poetry titles per year without running the poets
> thru a 
> contest treadmill.
> But so far I don't think we've burned thru a cool
> mill.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 19 20:20:18 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:20:18 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry from Sharon Olds
Message-ID: <1bb.9a702c7.2b0c3d52@aol.com>

11/19/02 3:40:04 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   webmaster at randomhouse.com (Knopf Poetry)

Sharon Olds? The Unswept Room has been named a 2002 National Book Award
finalist. In this issue of the Knopf Poetry newsletter you'll find two
selections from the book; we think they help explain why it was nominated.
All National Book Award winners will be announced this Wednesday, November
20th.

Olds has published six other collections, and she was the New York State
Poet Laureate from 1998 to 2000.  Below these two poems you'll find more
information about her, plus links to some of the rich poetry features on
The Borzoi Reader Online.
http://www.aaknopf.com
 
-----------------------------------------------

Grown Children

One from one direction, one 
from another, one day they come back, together,
and suddenly my body fits
in the air it is standing in, and my brain
fits in my skull again, and my mind
in my brain, and over the anticlines of my
mind light plays.   Last week I had seen
a being on the beach I couldn?t name at first,
a short, upright creature with a round
head and a swaybacked torso and brief
appendages flashing to the sides and below
like the beams of a star, so it appeared to sparkle,
to twinkle along the sand?it was a tiny
primate, and behind it along came another,
tinier and more primitive,
a dazzling winking, scintillating
along, it was a baby.   And now our daughter
is asleep on the couch, not six pounds
thirteen ounces, but about my size,
her great, complex, delicate face
relaxed.   And our son, last night, looking closely
at his sweetheart as they whispered for a moment, what a tender
listening look he had.   We raised them
daily, I mean hourly?every minute
we were theirs, no hour went by we were not
raising them?carrying them, bearing them, lifting them
up, for the pleasure, and so they could see,
out, away from us. 

-----------------------------------------------


The Unswept

Broken bay leaf.  Olive pit.
Crab leg.  Claw.  Crayfish armor.
Whelk shell.  Mussel shell.  Dogwinkle.  Snail.
Wishbone tossed unwished on.  Test
of sea urchin.  Chicken foot.
Wrasse skeleton.  Hen head,
eye shut, beak open as if
singing in the dark.  Laid down in tiny
tiles, by the rhyparographer,
each scrap has a shadow--each shadow cast
by a different light.  Permanently fresh 
husks of the feast!  When the guest has gone,
the morsels dropped on the floor are left
as food for the dead--O my characters,
my imagined, here are some fancies of crumbs
from under love?s table.


--from The Unswept Room by Sharon Olds. Copyright? 2002 by Sharon Olds. No
part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in
writing from the publisher. (Do, however, feel free to forward these poems
to a friend. We don?t mind a bit.)


About the Author:
Sharon Olds was born in 1942 in San Francisco and educated at Stanford
University and Columbia University. Her previous books are Satan Says, The
Dead and the Living, The Gold Cell, The Wellspring, The Father, and Blood,
Tin, Straw. She was the New York State Poet Laureate from 1998 to 2000.
She teaches poetry workshops in the Graduate Creative Writing Program at
New York University and was one of the founders of the NYU workshop
program at Goldwater Hospital on Roosevelt Island in New York. Her work
has received the Harriet Monroe Prize, the National Book Critics Circle
Award, the Lamont Selection of the Academy of American Poets, and the San
Francisco Poetry Center Award. She lives in New York City.


Go to Knopf?s online catalog for more information The Unswept Room:
Knopf | Hardcover | September 2002 | $25.00 | 0-375-41489-4
http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0375414894
Knopf | Trade Paperback | September 2002 | $15.00 | 0-375-70998-3
http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0375709983


Plus:
Get a printable poster of The Unswept for free: 
http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/poetry/unswept.pdf

Read our Poets on Poetry essays:
http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/poetry/poetsonpoetry.html

Stay in touch. We?d love to hear what poetry you?re enjoying:
KnopfWebmaster at randomhouse.com

---


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Nov 19 20:26:08 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:26:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] lilly gift
References: <20021120011401.65763.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <051101c29033$cdd33ce0$369efea9@j1c1k6>

> I think we need a mammoth grant to create a thorough
> taxonomy of all schools of American poetry. Let's
> see...who could we put in charge of it...?
>
> Tad

Haw haw.  I'd do it for a thousand bucks--except I'd also like money to
offer as a prize to anyone who is able to send me the name and a description
of a poetry school not on my list that I deem a genuine school, or that I
and some group of knowledgeable people-- maybe including even you,
Mole--deem a genuine school.

(Actually, I expect to continue to work on it for nothing.)

--Bob G.



From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Tue Nov 19 22:18:53 2002
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:18:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Book Launch -- Matthew Zapruder's American Linden
Message-ID: <32.307dfd93.2b0c591d@aol.com>


TUPELO PRESS
INVITES YOU TO CELEBRATE 
THE HARDCOVER & PAPERBACK RELEASE OF 

MATTHEW ZAPRUDER'S 
AMERICAN LINDEN
WINNER OF THE 2001 TUPELO PRESS EDITORS' PRIZE 

PLEASE JOIN US: 
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 21ST 
6:00 P.M. - 8:30 P.M. 
PANGEA BAR & RESTAURANT 
178 2ND AVE. NEW YORK CITY 
(BETWEEN 12TH & 11TH STREETS) 
212-995-0900 

BOOKS FOR THE SIGNING, 
ALONG WITH PLENTY OF WINE AND HORS D'OEUVRES

PRESENTED BY: 
TUPELO PRESS, P.O. BOX 539, DORSET, VT 
TEL: 802-366-8185, FAX: 802-362-1883 
WWW.TUPELOPRESS.ORG
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From DClemens at aol.com  Tue Nov 19 22:33:01 2002
From: DClemens at aol.com (DClemens at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:33:01 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1105 - 15 msgs
Message-ID: <6d.2887531.2b0c5c6d@aol.com>

So, if you were having dinner with Phillip Levine, what would you ask him?
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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 20 02:46:09 2002
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 23:46:09 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1105 - 15 msgs
References: <6d.2887531.2b0c5c6d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DDB3DC1.E68A100@earthlink.net>

do they feed lion?

DClemens at aol.com wrote:

> So, if you were having dinner with Phillip Levine, what would you ask
> him?
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From poemlady at cox.net  Wed Nov 20 07:12:10 2002
From: poemlady at cox.net (Audrey Friedman)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:12:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Question for Levine
References: <6d.2887531.2b0c5c6d@aol.com> <3DDB3DC1.E68A100@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002301c2908e$0d684c10$4fc30944@Zoom>


  I'd ask him, "What is the simple truth?"
               Audrey
    So, if you were having dinner with Phillip Levine, what would you ask him?
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Nov 20 08:00:26 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:00:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hu's on first - Sherman
In-Reply-To: <002301c2908e$0d684c10$4fc30944@Zoom>
Message-ID: <3DDB411A.12738.1B2A75@localhost>

Playwright Jim Sherman wrote this after Hu Jintao was named chief of 
the Communist Party in China...

  HU'S ON FIRST
  By James Sherman

  (We take you now to the Oval Office.)

  George: Condi! Nice to see you. What's happening?
  Condi: Sir, I have the report here about the new leader of China.
  George: Great. Lay it on me.
  Condi: Hu is the new leader of China.
  George: That's what I want to know.
  Condi: That's what I'm telling you.
  George: That's what I'm asking 
you. Who is the new leader of China?
  Condi: Yes.
  George: I mean the fellow's name.
  Condi: Hu.
  George: The guy in China.
  Condi: Hu.
  George: The new leader of China.
  Condi: Hu.
  George: The Chinaman!
  Condi: Hu is leading China.
  George: Now whaddya' asking me for?
  Condi: I'm telling you Hu is leading China.
  George: Well, I'm asking you. Who is leading China?
  Condi: That's the man's name.
  George: That's who's name?
  Condi: Yes.
  George: Will you or will you not tell me the name of the new leader 
of China?
  Condi: Yes, sir.
  George: Yassir? Yassir Arafat is in China? I thought he was in the 
Middle East.
  Condi: That's correct.
  George: Then who is in China?
  Condi: Yes, sir.
  George: Yassir is in China?
  Condi: No, sir.
  George: Then who is?
  Condi: Yes, sir.
  George: Yassir?
  Condi: No, sir.
  George: Look, Condi. I need to know the name of the new leader of 
China. Get me the Secretary General of the U.N. on the phone.
  Condi: Kofi? 
  George: No, thanks.
  Condi: You want Kofi?
  George: No.
  Condi: You don't want Kofi.
  George: No. But now that you mention it, I could use a glass of 
milk. And then get me the U.N.
  Condi: Yes, sir.
  George: Not Yassir! The guy at the U.N.
  Condi: Kofi?
  George: Milk! Will you please make the call?
  Condi: And call who?
  George: Who is the guy at the U.N?
  Condi: Hu is the guy in China.
  George: Will you stay out of China?!
  Condi: Yes, sir.
  George: And stay out of the Middle East! Just get me the guy at the 
U.N.
  Condi: Kofi.
  George: All right! With cream and two sugars. Now get on the phone.
  (Condi picks up the phone.)
  Condi: Rice, here.
  George: Rice? Good idea. And a couple of egg rolls, too. Maybe we 
should send some to the guy in China. And the Middle East. Can you 
get Chinese food in the Middle East?

                           --Jim Sherman

______________________________


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Nov 20 09:31:20 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:31:20 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Question for Levine
Message-ID: <2b.31765abf.2b0cf6b8@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/20/2002 6:13:13 AM Central Standard Time, 
poemlady at cox.net writes: 
> 
> >> I'd ask him, "What is the simple truth?"
>>               Audrey
>>  
>> >>> So, if you were having dinner with Phillip Levine, what would you ask 
>>> him?
>> 
> 
Would be willing to produce your Social Security records showing exactly how 
many quarters you worked manual labor?
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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Nov 20 09:51:26 2002
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS  RICHARDS)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:51:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Question for Levine
References: <6d.2887531.2b0c5c6d@aol.com> <3DDB3DC1.E68A100@earthlink.net> <002301c2908e$0d684c10$4fc30944@Zoom>
Message-ID: <007901c290aa$52a6d320$1e3affd1@ibm25310>


      So, if you were having dinner with Phillip Levine, what would you ask him?

      How about those Knicks?
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Nov 20 12:55:46 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:55:46 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard Re-invites poet
Message-ID: <BA0128C2.3ABF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

An update on Jim Finnegan's recent post.


HARVARD REINVITES POET WHO WANTS JEWS "SHOT DEAD" [Kathryn Jean Lopez]
After bad press (including by Tom Gross on NRO), Harvard's English
Department disinvited poet Tom Paulin--from speaking on campus. They've
reversed themselves.
A highlight reel from Paulin: "They should be shot dead. I think they are
Nazis, racists, I feel nothing but hatred for them...I can understand how
suicide bombers feel. . . . I think attacks on civilians in fact boost
morale."



From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 20 13:19:21 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:19:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard Re-invites poet
In-Reply-To: <BA0128C2.3ABF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEMEFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Three cheers for Harvard! But the quote below constitutes
a first-class case against quoting out of context.

Hal     No pets or dogs.
             --sign at the entrance to the gardens of
                St. Luke in the Fields, NYC

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

   
{    HARVARD REINVITES POET WHO WANTS JEWS "SHOT DEAD" [Kathryn Jean Lopez]
{    After bad press (including by Tom Gross on NRO), Harvard's English
{    Department disinvited poet Tom Paulin--from speaking on campus. They've
{    reversed themselves.
{    A highlight reel from Paulin: "They should be shot dead. I think they are
{    Nazis, racists, I feel nothing but hatred for them...I can understand how
{    suicide bombers feel. . . . I think attacks on civilians in fact boost
{    morale."



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Nov 20 15:08:21 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:08:21 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Book ban rejected
Message-ID: <BA0147D5.3AC3%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Another trial in Europe (France) in which a group attempts to ban a book for
alleged hate speech. In this case, the author's right to publish was upheld.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20021120_1143.html



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Nov 20 15:47:38 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:47:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Question for Levine
References: <6d.2887531.2b0c5c6d@aol.com> <3DDB3DC1.E68A100@earthlink.net> <002301c2908e$0d684c10$4fc30944@Zoom>
Message-ID: <002f01c290d6$1110a5e0$0ab5fea9@j1c1k6>

I'd ask him what he wanted to ask ME.

--Bob G.
    I'd ask him, "What is the simple truth?"
                 Audrey
      So, if you were having dinner with Phillip Levine, what would you ask him?
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From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Nov 20 17:46:10 2002
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 17:46:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1105 - 15 msgs
References: <6d.2887531.2b0c5c6d@aol.com> <3DDB3DC1.E68A100@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3DDC10B2.C8D08E8E@localnet.com>

To pick up the check.

Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino wrote:

> do they feed lion?
>
> DClemens at aol.com wrote:
>
>> So, if you were having dinner with Phillip Levine, what would you
>> ask him?
>
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Thu Nov 21 09:00:17 2002
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 06:00:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Question for Levine
In-Reply-To: <002f01c290d6$1110a5e0$0ab5fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <20021121140017.83863.qmail@web13006.mail.yahoo.com>

I'd ask him if he knew why so many other poets hated him so much.  Then I'd ask him if he'd autograph my copy of "The Bread o Time." But, that's just me. . . of course.  Jeff Newberry  I'd ask him, "What is the simple truth?"             Audrey
So, if you were having dinner with Phillip Levine, what would you ask him?



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov 21 11:08:28 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:08:28 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard Re-invites poet
Message-ID: <5b.31a84e8c.2b0e5efc@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/20/02 1:20:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:

> But the quote below constitutes
>  a first-class case against quoting out of context.
>  
Hal,
Hooray for Harvard and free speech...but I feel the quote
is inexcusable in or out of context. Political frustration
is no justification for hate speech...
and a poet from of all places, Northern Ireland, 
should know better.
Finnegan


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov 21 11:32:41 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:32:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Question for Levine
Message-ID: <105.202f110b.2b0e64a9@aol.com>

I'd ask him if he ever regretted devoting his considerable
talents to a poetry that has spoken almost exclusively for 
such basic human values as the dignity of the human spirit, 
social justice, the simple pleasures of existence, and love?
Finnegan

...the poet is the only true human being, and the best philosopher 
is only a caricature in comparison.

Friedrich Schiller
    --Goethe-Schiller Letters


From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 21 11:29:50 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:29:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard Re-invites poet
In-Reply-To: <5b.31a84e8c.2b0e5efc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKENHFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

    
{    In a message dated 11/20/02 1:20:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
{    halvard at earthlink.net writes:
{    
{    > But the quote below constitutes
{    >  a first-class case against quoting out of context.
{    >  
{    Hal,
{    Hooray for Harvard and free speech...but I feel the quote
{    is inexcusable in or out of context. Political frustration
{    is no justification for hate speech...
{    and a poet from of all places, Northern Ireland, 
{    should know better.
{    Finnegan

But I was referring to Paul Lake's quotation, Jim. There was
a crucial pronoun there with no apparent referent in his posting.

Hal         "Life swarms with innocent monsters."
                          --Charles Baudelaire
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Nov 21 11:34:57 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:34:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] News
Message-ID: <BA026751.3AD0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>



             News from Gaza


Seized by the spirit of the Lord,
He killed a lion with bare hands,
Slew thirty men without a sword,
And slaughtered foes by the battalion
With just the jaw bone of an ass
To drive them from disputed lands;
Tied firebrands to jackals? tails
Then loosed them in the enemy?s corn,
Burning their vineyards, fields and groves
Until both hair and strength were shorn.
Then, captive, broken, chained, and blind,
And circled by a festive crowd,
He grasped their temple?s central poles,
Called on his god, and brought it down,
Killing himself along with hosts
Of the much-hated Philistines.


What is the moral of this tale?
What else, but that when building nations,
To nurse a grudge for generations;
To preface slaughter with a prayer;
To jaw bone foes when weapons fail;
To stand apart while loosing jackals;
To catch your foes packed into temples
Or market squares and kill wholesale.


Paul Lake



From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu  Thu Nov 21 11:38:50 2002
From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:38:50 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard Re-invites poet
In-Reply-To: <5b.31a84e8c.2b0e5efc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10211211050.A@muahost.valpo.edu>

I agree that Tom Paulin's comments are inexcusable hate speech.  
However, I do not think Harvard's re-invitation is a victory 
for free speech.  To argue this as a free speech case trivializes such 
an important right.  Paulin's free speech was never affected by 
Harvard's decision to un-invite him, which I believe was the correct 
one.  To frame this incident as one of free speech is to distort the 
issue. Paulin's works are widely published and available, he has the 
right to speak publicly anywhere he wants, including in the campus 
square at Harvard. The only things being denied him by the withdrawn 
invitation were the funding, support, and prestigious endorsement of 
the Harvard English Department --- none of which is guaranteed by "free 
speech," nor is he entitled to receive because of "free speech."

--Ed


> Hal,
> Hooray for Harvard and free speech...but I feel the quote
> is inexcusable in or out of context. Political frustration
> is no justification for hate speech...
> and a poet from of all places, Northern Ireland, 
> should know better.
> Finnegan

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov 21 11:54:09 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:54:09 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] And the winners are....
Message-ID: <18a.118f539e.2b0e69b1@aol.com>

2002 National Book Awards...

Poetry
Ruth Stone
In the Next Galaxy
(Copper Canyon Press) 

Fiction
Julia Glass
Three Junes
(Pantheon Books) 
 
Young People's Literature
Nancy Farmer
The House of the Scorpion
(A Richard Jackson Book/
Atheneum Books for Young Readers)

Nonfiction
Robert A. Caro
Master of the Senate: 
The Years of Lyndon Johnson
(Alfred A. Knopf)
 


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Nov 21 12:07:32 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:07:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets and Free Speech
Message-ID: <99.301541a6.2b0e6cd4@cs.com>

The November 6-19 issue of Christian Century (not online yet) has a 
fascinating article about how poet Scott Cairns was "unhired" by Seattle 
Pacific University after members of the administration read his poem 
"Interval with Erato."
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 21 12:15:23 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:15:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Scott Cairns, "Interval with Erato"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGENJFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Raincoats in place, gentlemen?


Interval with Erato 

That's what I like best about you, Erato sighed in bed, that's why 
you've become one of my favorites and why you will always be so. 
I grazed her ear with my tongue, held the salty lobe between my lips. 

I feel like singing when you do that, she said with more than a hint 
of music already in her voice. So sing, I said, and moved down 
to the tenderness at the edge of her jaw. Hmmm, she said, that's nice. 

Is there anything you don't like? I asked, genuinely meaning 
to please. I don't like poets in a hurry, she said, shifting 
so my lips might achieve the more dangerous divot of her throat. 

Ohhhh, she said, as I pressed a little harder there. She held my face 
in both hands. And I hate when they get careless, especially 
when employing second-person address. She sat up, and my mouth 

fell to the tip of one breast. Yes, she said, you know how it can be - 
they're writing "you did this" and "you did that" and I always assume, 
at first, that they mean me! She slid one finger into my mouth to tease 

the nipple there. I mean it's disappointing enough to observe 
the lyric is addressed to someone else, and then, the poet spends 
half the poem spouting information that the you - if she or he 

were listening - would have known already, ostensibly as well as, 
or better than, the speaker. I stopped to meet her eyes. I know just 
what you mean, I said. She leaned down to take a turn, working my chest 

with her mouth and hands, then sat back in open invitation. 
Darling, she said as I returned to the underside of her breast, 
have you noticed how many poets talk to themselves, about themselves? 

I drew one finger down the middle of her back. Maybe they fear 
no one else will hear or care. I sucked her belly, cupped her sopping 
vulva with my hand. My that's delicious, she said, lifting into me. 

Are all poets these days so lonely? She wove her fingers with mine 
so we could caress her there together. Not me, I said, and ran 
my slick hands back up to her breasts. I tongued her thighs. I said, I'm not 

lonely now. She rubbed my neck, No, dear, and you shouldn't be. She clenched, Oh! 
a little early bonus, she said; I like surprises. Then, so 
few poets appreciate surprises, so many prefer to speak 

only what they, clearly, already know, or think they know. If I 
were a poet. . . well, I wouldn't be one at all if I hadn't 
found a way to get a little something for myself - something new 

from every outing, no? Me neither, I said, if somewhat indistinctly. 
Oh! she said. Yes! she said, and tightened so I felt her pulse against 
my lips. She lay quietly for a moment, obviously thinking. 

Sweetie, she said, that's what I like best about you - you pay attention, 
and you know how to listen when a girl feels like a little song. 
Let's see if we can't find a little something now, especially for you. 

--Scott Cairns

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Thu Nov 21 12:34:47 2002
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:34:47 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1107 - 12 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20021121170101.E1543101C6@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021121092422.00a07120@incoming.verizon.net>

At 12:01 PM 11/21/02 -0500, Hal wrote:
>Three cheers for Harvard!

Our esteemed Cantab colleagues, Hal, if their knees ever stopped jerking,
might want to crawl over and check to see what  trendy holdings foam-mouthed
Paulin has in gas ovens and lampshade boutiques.

-- Barry

"What confusion would cover the innocent Jesus
To meet so enabled a Man!"

-- Emily Dickinson

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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Nov 21 12:41:42 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:41:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Scott Cairns, "Interval with Erato"
Message-ID: <15c.174400cc.2b0e74d6@cs.com>

I love this!  It's included in the CC article.
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From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Nov 21 12:57:51 2002
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 09:57:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets and Free Speech
Message-ID: <3862938.1037901471816.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, Nov 21, 2002, at 12:07PM, <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

>The November 6-19 issue of Christian Century (not online yet) has a fascinating article about how >poet Scott Cairns was "unhired" by Seattle Pacific University after members of the administration >read his poem "Interval with Erato." 

Seattle Pacific is an evangelical Christian school and probably offered the job because Cairns has a reputation as a Christian poet. I can see why "Interval with Erato" ( http://www.zoopress.org/cairns.html and scroll down) upset them.  Here's Cairns (who has another job now) on the subject:

http://promontoryartists.org/crossing/Cairns5.htm
"First off, I wouldn't say the poem caused the scandal; I'd say that the poem's appearance and reception revealed a scandal that has been longstanding in some elements of what we have come to call the evangelical community. Most clearly, I learned to appreciate the blessing of a tenured position in a state university. To others facing a similar response to their work, I would say forgive everyone, and make more art."

As in the case of Paulin, I'm not sure this is a free speech issue--and, since Seattle Pacific is a religious institution, it would seem to have 1st amendment protection for its position.


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Nov 21 13:15:16 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:15:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets and Free Speech
Message-ID: <19d.c4cc158.2b0e7cb4@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/21/2002 11:58:27 AM Central Standard Time, 
mandolin at mac.com writes:


> As in the case of Paulin, I'm not sure this is a free speech issue--and, 
> since Seattle Pacific is a religious institution, it would seem to have 1st 
> amendment protection for its position.
> 

I agree.  This is not really a free speech issue; it's a matter of taste.
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From mandolin at mac.com  Thu Nov 21 13:22:13 2002
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:22:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets and Free Speech
Message-ID: <7629675.1037902933795.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Thursday, Nov 21, 2002, at 01:15PM, <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:
>In a message dated 11/21/2002 11:58:27 AM Central Standard Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: 

>As in the case of Paulin, I'm not sure this is a free speech issue--and, since Seattle Pacific is >a religious institution, it would seem to have 1st amendment protection for its position. 

>I agree.  This is not really a free speech issue; it's a matter of taste. 

Yep. And despite Mrs. O'Leary and her cow, his taste is better than theirs. (Erato thought so, too!)


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Nov 21 14:43:20 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:43:20 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
Message-ID: <BA029378.3AE1%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Here's an article about the re-invitation of poet Tom Paulin to Harvard.


Harvard Reinvites Controversial Anti-Israeli Poet to Speak On Campus

Thursday, November 21, 2002



BOSTON???Harvard University English professors reinvited a controversial
Irish poet to speak on campus, one week after his appearance was canceled
because of his strong anti-Israeli comments.

Professors met for two hours Tuesday and voted to reinvite Tom Paulin, who
has made statements comparing U.S.-born settlers in the West Bank with
Nazis, and saying they "should be shot dead."

"Free speech was a principle that needed upholding here," English professor
Peter Sacks said Wednesday. "This was a clear reaffirmation that the
department stood strongly by the First Amendment."

Paulin, an Oxford University lecturer teaching this semester at Columbia
University, had been scheduled to appear at Harvard Nov. 14 as part of the
English Department's lecture series.

But the invitation was canceled because of a flood of student complaints
about Paulin.

Harvard professors said Paulin told them he wanted to come to Harvard,
probably in the spring, but wanted to discuss the invitation further with
the English faculty.

"We are ultimately stronger as a university if we together maintain our
robust commitment to free expression, including the freedom of groups on
campus to invite speakers with controversial views," Harvard President
Lawrence H. Summers said in a statement.

The cancellation drew significant attention ? and dismay from many scholars
and First Amendment advocates ? not only at Harvard but on other campuses
nationwide.

In April, Paulin, quoted in the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram Weekly, said of
American Jewish settlers: "I think they are Nazis, racists; I feel nothing
but hatred for them."

In the same interview, Paulin said he understands "how suicide bombers
feel," but suggested guerrilla warfare would be more effective because
attacks on civilians could create a sense a solidarity.

In his poem "Killed in the Crossfire," he writes of "another little
Palestinian boy in trainers jeans and a white teeshirt" killed by the
"Zionist SS."



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Thu Nov 21 14:01:31 2002
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS  RICHARDS)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:01:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1107 - 12 msgs
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021121092422.00a07120@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <026401c2919c$c7a06ae0$3d3affd1@ibm25310>

Given the heated controversy over the Paulin appearance, with feelings running high on both sides and positions being staked out, where's the knee-jerk? Do we automatically assume that any position which we don't share must not have been carefully thought out, and must therefore be a knee-jerk response?



Tad Richards
http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
art - poetry - links
www.opus40.org
Harvey Fite's monumental earth sculpture
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Barry Spacks 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:34 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1107 - 12 msgs


  At 12:01 PM 11/21/02 -0500, Hal wrote:

    Three cheers for Harvard! 

  Our esteemed Cantab colleagues, Hal, if their knees ever stopped jerking, 
  might want to crawl over and check to see what trendy holdings foam-mouthed 
  Paulin has in gas ovens and lampshade boutiques.

  -- Barry

  "What confusion would cover the innocent Jesus
  To meet so enabled a Man!"

  -- Emily Dickinson


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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Thu Nov 21 15:59:40 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:59:40 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets and free speech
Message-ID: <BA02A55C.3AE5%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I wonder how different the Harvard controversy would be if instead of
advocating killing Jews, a guest poet had advocated shooting and
suicide-bombing Palestinian civilians. Or civilians of almost any other
ethnic group or nationality.

Paul Lake



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 21 17:43:10 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:43:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1107 - 12 msgs
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021121092422.00a07120@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <006601c291af$5eeeae40$4c07fea9@j1c1k6>




  At 12:01 PM 11/21/02 -0500, Hal wrote:

    Three cheers for Harvard! 

  Our esteemed Cantab colleagues, Hal, if their knees ever stopped jerking, 
  might want to crawl over and check to see what trendy holdings foam-mouthed 
  Paulin has in gas ovens and lampshade boutiques.

  -- Barry


Right.  English departments should invite poets to speak to their students on the basis of their political views.

Just to fill my quota for Evil Speech to New-Poetry for the month, I'll add that I favor hate speech.  It's easier to refute than stifled speech, and less dangerous than the hate action that stifled hate speech must lead to.  It also makes enemies of society more visible.  There are other equally good reasons for allowing it.

--Bob G.

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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 21 17:54:22 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:54:22 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Scott Cairns, "Interval with Erato"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGENJFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3DDD641E.5C5A7682@earthlink.net>

Unlike the Baraka brouhaha, the Billy-picking, and the nefarious Lilly
$$$ dumped on Poetry, this bit of the National Poetic Enquirer has a
tangible reward: the poem below.

Why raincoats?  I took off everything 6 lines in.

- Jim

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> Raincoats in place, gentlemen?
> 
> Interval with Erato
> 
> That's what I like best about you, Erato sighed in bed, that's why
> you've become one of my favorites and why you will always be so.
> I grazed her ear with my tongue, held the salty lobe between my lips.
> 
> I feel like singing when you do that, she said with more than a hint
> of music already in her voice. So sing, I said, and moved down
> to the tenderness at the edge of her jaw. Hmmm, she said, that's nice.
> 
> Is there anything you don't like? I asked, genuinely meaning
> to please. I don't like poets in a hurry, she said, shifting
> so my lips might achieve the more dangerous divot of her throat.
> 
> Ohhhh, she said, as I pressed a little harder there. She held my face
> in both hands. And I hate when they get careless, especially
> when employing second-person address. She sat up, and my mouth
> 
> fell to the tip of one breast. Yes, she said, you know how it can be -
> they're writing "you did this" and "you did that" and I always assume,
> at first, that they mean me! She slid one finger into my mouth to tease
> 
> the nipple there. I mean it's disappointing enough to observe
> the lyric is addressed to someone else, and then, the poet spends
> half the poem spouting information that the you - if she or he
> 
> were listening - would have known already, ostensibly as well as,
> or better than, the speaker. I stopped to meet her eyes. I know just
> what you mean, I said. She leaned down to take a turn, working my chest
> 
> with her mouth and hands, then sat back in open invitation.
> Darling, she said as I returned to the underside of her breast,
> have you noticed how many poets talk to themselves, about themselves?
> 
> I drew one finger down the middle of her back. Maybe they fear
> no one else will hear or care. I sucked her belly, cupped her sopping
> vulva with my hand. My that's delicious, she said, lifting into me.
> 
> Are all poets these days so lonely? She wove her fingers with mine
> so we could caress her there together. Not me, I said, and ran
> my slick hands back up to her breasts. I tongued her thighs. I said, I'm not
> 
> lonely now. She rubbed my neck, No, dear, and you shouldn't be. She clenched, Oh!
> a little early bonus, she said; I like surprises. Then, so
> few poets appreciate surprises, so many prefer to speak
> 
> only what they, clearly, already know, or think they know. If I
> were a poet. . . well, I wouldn't be one at all if I hadn't
> found a way to get a little something for myself - something new
> 
> from every outing, no? Me neither, I said, if somewhat indistinctly.
> Oh! she said. Yes! she said, and tightened so I felt her pulse against
> my lips. She lay quietly for a moment, obviously thinking.
> 
> Sweetie, she said, that's what I like best about you - you pay attention,
> and you know how to listen when a girl feels like a little song.
> Let's see if we can't find a little something now, especially for you.
> 
> --Scott Cairns
> 
> Hal
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 21 17:58:33 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:58:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
References: <BA029378.3AE1%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <009a01c291b1$85b892a0$4c07fea9@j1c1k6>

Two more comments.  (1) I strongly suspect that we're getting very distorted
reports about Paulin.  (2) If he's actually writing lines in his poetry like
the ones quoted below, I don't have much respect for him as a poet or
person, and I'm surprised the Harvard English department invited him in the
first place.

Oh, I have one question, too: if one expresses hatred of a single group of
Jews such as American Jews who settle in the West Bank or, in my case, the
Jewish Anti-Defamation League whose members I consider fascists, does that
make one an anti-semite?  If so, I'm a peculiar one, for I'm
near-fanatically on Israel's side versus the Palestinians, even though I
think they are far from being wholly in the right.

--Bob G.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 2:43 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet


Here's an article about the re-invitation of poet Tom Paulin to Harvard.


Harvard Reinvites Controversial Anti-Israeli Poet to Speak On Campus

Thursday, November 21, 2002



BOSTON < Harvard University English professors reinvited a controversial
Irish poet to speak on campus, one week after his appearance was canceled
because of his strong anti-Israeli comments.

Professors met for two hours Tuesday and voted to reinvite Tom Paulin, who
has made statements comparing U.S.-born settlers in the West Bank with
Nazis, and saying they "should be shot dead."

"Free speech was a principle that needed upholding here," English professor
Peter Sacks said Wednesday. "This was a clear reaffirmation that the
department stood strongly by the First Amendment."

Paulin, an Oxford University lecturer teaching this semester at Columbia
University, had been scheduled to appear at Harvard Nov. 14 as part of the
English Department's lecture series.

But the invitation was canceled because of a flood of student complaints
about Paulin.

Harvard professors said Paulin told them he wanted to come to Harvard,
probably in the spring, but wanted to discuss the invitation further with
the English faculty.

"We are ultimately stronger as a university if we together maintain our
robust commitment to free expression, including the freedom of groups on
campus to invite speakers with controversial views," Harvard President
Lawrence H. Summers said in a statement.

The cancellation drew significant attention < and dismay from many scholars
and First Amendment advocates < not only at Harvard but on other campuses
nationwide.

In April, Paulin, quoted in the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram Weekly, said of
American Jewish settlers: "I think they are Nazis, racists; I feel nothing
but hatred for them."

In the same interview, Paulin said he understands "how suicide bombers
feel," but suggested guerrilla warfare would be more effective because
attacks on civilians could create a sense a solidarity.

In his poem "Killed in the Crossfire," he writes of "another little
Palestinian boy in trainers jeans and a white teeshirt" killed by the
"Zionist SS."

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Thu Nov 21 19:36:03 2002
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:36:03 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
References: <BA029378.3AE1%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu> <009a01c291b1$85b892a0$4c07fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <00e701c291c0$9452d500$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com>

From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>

> Two more comments.  (1) I strongly suspect that we're getting very
distorted
> reports about Paulin.

Yes and know.  Much (all?) of this is seems to be turning on the final lines
of the Al-Ahram interview:

http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/580/cu2.htm

<<
So how does the suicide bomber fit within this balance of power?

"I can understand how suicide bombers feel," he answers. "It is an
expression of deep injustice and tragedy. I think -- though -- that it is
better to resort to conventional guerrilla warfare. I think attacks on
civilians in fact boost morale. Hitler bombed London into submission but in
fact it created a sense of national solidarity."

If there is one thing Paulin clearly abhors about Israel, it is the
Brooklyn--born Jewish settlers.

"They should be shot dead," he says forcefully. "I think they are Nazis,
racists, I feel nothing but hatred for them."
>>

(For which, incidentally, he's already disowned and/or apologised for.)

One of the astounding things about much of the brouhaha that's lately
errupted over this is that nobody seems to have bothered to go back to the
bloody interview that started all this in the first place.  It's not really
that difficult.

Robin Hamilton

[Incidentally, in case it's not obvious, I find the passage I quoted above
both obscene and wholly uncharacteristic of Tom Paulin.  But he did say it.

R.]



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov 21 20:32:50 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:32:50 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Peter Gizzi reading report
Message-ID: <157.17cb5d09.2b0ee342@aol.com>

Last night, at about half-past 7, I was trying 
to talk myself out of getting in my car and driving 
a half-hour down to a reading in Middletown CT, 
but  I'm glad my soul won out and I went...
I was more than pleasantly surprised by 
Peter Gizzi's reading: I was impressed; and
I'm not easily impressed. 

He read about 20 pieces, most from a new selection
that is being published by Wesleyan U. Press.
The first poem he read (below) he introduced as a fugue.
And many of his poems seemed to have that
quality. He'd take up a theme/subject and drive it 
through various iterations, twists and turns. A great amount 
of erudition was evident by the elements he brought 
into the poem's purview, and with a fish-eye lens 
he captured many peripheral things that had some
significance or bearing on the theme/subject at hand.

He read very well...clearly, with force, giving each
word its full due.  

In the Q&A after the reading he was very engaged.
Seriously considering each question...always making a 
a thoughtful response (not a throwaway or jokey, 
half-serious answer that is so typical of poets speaking
down to the young); and he in turn asked questions of the 
questioners...often catching them off guard when he
asked them to elaborate on their perspectives, making 
of the Q&A a dialog.

To his credit, Peter Gizzi has also edited and published 
a collection of Spicer talks called the The House That Jack Built.
Below is a poem and a bit o prose of his ...
Finnegan
--

Beginning with a Phrase from Simone Weil

          There is no better time than the present when we
have lost everything. It doesn't mean rain falling
          at a certain declension, at a variable speed is
without purpose or design.
          The present everything is lost in time, according to
laws of physics things shift
          when we lose sight of a present,
          when there is no more everything. No more
presence in everything loved.

          In the expanding model things slowly drift and
everything better than the present is lost in no time.
          A day mulches according to gravity
          and the sow bug marches. Gone, the hinge cracks,
the gate swings a breeze,
          breeze contingent upon a grace opening to air,
          velocity tied to winging clay. Every anything in its
peculiar station.

          The sun brightens as it bleaches, fades the spectral
value in everything seen. And chaos is no better model
          when we come adrift.
          When we have lost a presence when there is no
more everything. No more presence in everything loved
          losing anything to the present. I heard a fly buzz. I
heard revealed nature,
          cars in the street and the garbage, footprints of a
world, every fly a perpetual window,
          unalloyed life, gling, pinnacles of tar.

          There is no better everything than loss when we
have time. No lack in the present better than everything.
          In this expanding model rain falls
          according to laws of physics, things drift. And
everything better than the present is gone
          in no time. A certain declension, a variable speed.
          Is there no better presence than loss?
          A grace opening to air.
          No better time than the present.




After Language Poetry 
Peter Gizzi 


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Nov 21 20:45:42 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:45:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1107 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: <f4.25159694.2b0ee646@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/21/02 5:48:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:

> hate speech.  It's easier to refute than stifled speech, and less dangerous 
> than the hate action that stifled hate speech must lead to.  It also makes 
> enemies of society more visible.  There are other equally good reasons for 
> allowing it.
Bob, I really have trouble with the concept that hate speech is 
a just harmless venting...a way for the haters to let off a little steam,
but causes no real harm. That seems to be what your saying.
Words incite action:  There's the guy kicking the shit out of you, 
and the guys in crowd shouting, egging him on. 
I'll wait for the other reasons since you've not given any good ones yet.
Finnegan


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Nov 21 20:56:04 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:56:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1107 - 12 msgs
References: <f4.25159694.2b0ee646@aol.com>
Message-ID: <010801c291ca$519473e0$4c07fea9@j1c1k6>

> In a message dated 11/21/02 5:48:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
>
> > hate speech.  It's easier to refute than stifled speech, and less
dangerous
> > than the hate action that stifled hate speech must lead to.  It also
makes
> > enemies of society more visible.  There are other equally good reasons
for
> > allowing it.
> Bob, I really have trouble with the concept that hate speech is
> a just harmless venting...a way for the haters to let off a little steam,
> but causes no real harm. That seems to be what you're saying.

Not at all.  I'm saying hate speech is less harmful than hate action.  It is
the latter that should be stifled.

> Words incite action:  There's the guy kicking the shit out of you,
> and the guys in crowd shouting, egging him on.

You're reasoning like a poet, James.  (1) In your example what is bad is the
kicking.  (2) Your example is an extreme case.

> I'll wait for the other reasons since you've not given any good ones yet.
> Finnegan

I have no more reasons better than the ones I've given.

--Bob G.



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Thu Nov 21 20:59:35 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:59:35 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] lilly gift
References: <6a.29637baa.2b0c3a0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001301c291ca$d175ba10$49864cca@JROSS2>

How about an associated central bookshop, say in Chicago (!), with a
storehouse devoted exclusively to poetry.  It would have a website with all
titles/poets available, and a short bio. of each poet.  There would be
specials, and, and ...

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] lilly gift


> In a message dated 11/19/02 2:29:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> GrahamD at ripon.edu writes:
>
> > One thing I'd love to see would be a huge archive of
> >  recordings of contemporary poets--something much more extensive than
the
> >  "Poets in Person" series that Parisi did--and available in all sorts of
> >  media.
> David,
> That's a good idea...& perhaps a website where you get free MP3
> downloads of poems, so you can burn your favorite poetry mix.
> And how 'bout a publishing house that did at least a two dozen
> poetry titles per year without running the poets thru a
> contest treadmill.
> But so far I don't think we've burned thru a cool mill.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From griffinbaker at shaw.ca  Thu Nov 21 21:22:14 2002
From: griffinbaker at shaw.ca (Mark Baker)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:22:14 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] News
References: <BA026751.3AD0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3DDD94D5.6C66DF38@shaw.ca>

John Carey recently wrote an article in TLS making the unpoetic argument
you make poetically here, Paul. He called Milton's Samson simply a
terrorist. You could follow the usual run of heated (of course) debate
that followed in the letters section for about a month.

Paul Lake wrote:

>              News from Gaza
>
> Seized by the spirit of the Lord,
> He killed a lion with bare hands,
> Slew thirty men without a sword,
> And slaughtered foes by the battalion
> With just the jaw bone of an ass
> To drive them from disputed lands;
> Tied firebrands to jackals? tails
> Then loosed them in the enemy?s corn,
> Burning their vineyards, fields and groves
> Until both hair and strength were shorn.
> Then, captive, broken, chained, and blind,
> And circled by a festive crowd,
> He grasped their temple?s central poles,
> Called on his god, and brought it down,
> Killing himself along with hosts
> Of the much-hated Philistines.
>
> What is the moral of this tale?
> What else, but that when building nations,
> To nurse a grudge for generations;
> To preface slaughter with a prayer;
> To jaw bone foes when weapons fail;
> To stand apart while loosing jackals;
> To catch your foes packed into temples
> Or market squares and kill wholesale.
>
> Paul Lake
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Thu Nov 21 21:35:14 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:35:14 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard Re-invites poet
References: <BA0128C2.3ABF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <00db01c291cf$cb599a20$49864cca@JROSS2>

The world is going insane ...

Zan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 1:55 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard Re-invites poet


> An update on Jim Finnegan's recent post.
> 
> 
> HARVARD REINVITES POET WHO WANTS JEWS "SHOT DEAD" [Kathryn Jean Lopez]
> After bad press (including by Tom Gross on NRO), Harvard's English
> Department disinvited poet Tom Paulin--from speaking on campus. They've
> reversed themselves.
> A highlight reel from Paulin: "They should be shot dead. I think they are
> Nazis, racists, I feel nothing but hatred for them...I can understand how
> suicide bombers feel. . . . I think attacks on civilians in fact boost
> morale."
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Thu Nov 21 21:45:44 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:45:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone poem
Message-ID: <200211220244.gAM2iZVY071548@mx4.mx.voyager.net>

A poem from this year's winner of the National Book Award for poetry, though
not from the winning book, which I haven't yet seen.

A Moment

Across the highway a heron stands
in the flooded field. It stands
as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
as if the field belongs to herons.
The air is clear and quiet.
Snow melts on this second fair day.
Mother and daughter,
we sit in the parking lot
with doughnuts and coffee.
We are silent.
For a moment the wall between us
opens to the universe;
then closes.
And you go on saying
you do not want to repeat my life.

--Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press.

========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Thu Nov 21 21:57:32 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:57:32 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard Re-invites poet
References: <5b.31a84e8c.2b0e5efc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <019b01c291d2$e96debd0$49864cca@JROSS2>

Was he Catholic or Protestant?  Just by the way, hatred in speech is a
moment to moment occurrence in Northern Ireland.  Not everyone is interested
in peace.

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harvard Re-invites poet


> In a message dated 11/20/02 1:20:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> halvard at earthlink.net writes:
>
> > But the quote below constitutes
> >  a first-class case against quoting out of context.
> >
> Hal,
> Hooray for Harvard and free speech...but I feel the quote
> is inexcusable in or out of context. Political frustration
> is no justification for hate speech...
> and a poet from of all places, Northern Ireland,
> should know better.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Thu Nov 21 22:04:56 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:04:56 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Scott Cairns, "Interval with Erato"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGENJFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <01c301c291d3$f345f390$49864cca@JROSS2>

I can see why that did NOT go down a treat ...

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 1:15 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Scott Cairns, "Interval with Erato"


> Raincoats in place, gentlemen?
>
>
> Interval with Erato
>
> That's what I like best about you, Erato sighed in bed, that's why
> you've become one of my favorites and why you will always be so.
> I grazed her ear with my tongue, held the salty lobe between my lips.
>
> I feel like singing when you do that, she said with more than a hint
> of music already in her voice. So sing, I said, and moved down
> to the tenderness at the edge of her jaw. Hmmm, she said, that's nice.
>
> Is there anything you don't like? I asked, genuinely meaning
> to please. I don't like poets in a hurry, she said, shifting
> so my lips might achieve the more dangerous divot of her throat.
>
> Ohhhh, she said, as I pressed a little harder there. She held my face
> in both hands. And I hate when they get careless, especially
> when employing second-person address. She sat up, and my mouth
>
> fell to the tip of one breast. Yes, she said, you know how it can be -
> they're writing "you did this" and "you did that" and I always assume,
> at first, that they mean me! She slid one finger into my mouth to tease
>
> the nipple there. I mean it's disappointing enough to observe
> the lyric is addressed to someone else, and then, the poet spends
> half the poem spouting information that the you - if she or he
>
> were listening - would have known already, ostensibly as well as,
> or better than, the speaker. I stopped to meet her eyes. I know just
> what you mean, I said. She leaned down to take a turn, working my chest
>
> with her mouth and hands, then sat back in open invitation.
> Darling, she said as I returned to the underside of her breast,
> have you noticed how many poets talk to themselves, about themselves?
>
> I drew one finger down the middle of her back. Maybe they fear
> no one else will hear or care. I sucked her belly, cupped her sopping
> vulva with my hand. My that's delicious, she said, lifting into me.
>
> Are all poets these days so lonely? She wove her fingers with mine
> so we could caress her there together. Not me, I said, and ran
> my slick hands back up to her breasts. I tongued her thighs. I said, I'm
not
>
> lonely now. She rubbed my neck, No, dear, and you shouldn't be. She
clenched, Oh!
> a little early bonus, she said; I like surprises. Then, so
> few poets appreciate surprises, so many prefer to speak
>
> only what they, clearly, already know, or think they know. If I
> were a poet. . . well, I wouldn't be one at all if I hadn't
> found a way to get a little something for myself - something new
>
> from every outing, no? Me neither, I said, if somewhat indistinctly.
> Oh! she said. Yes! she said, and tightened so I felt her pulse against
> my lips. She lay quietly for a moment, obviously thinking.
>
> Sweetie, she said, that's what I like best about you - you pay attention,
> and you know how to listen when a girl feels like a little song.
> Let's see if we can't find a little something now, especially for you.
>
> --Scott Cairns
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Thu Nov 21 22:08:17 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:08:17 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets and Free Speech
References: <19d.c4cc158.2b0e7cb4@cs.com>
Message-ID: <027c01c291d6$2efb86a0$49864cca@JROSS2>

And judging from the poem, there was a lot of that going on to disturb the folks at Seattle Pacific ...

Zan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 2:15 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poets and Free Speech


  In a message dated 11/21/2002 11:58:27 AM Central Standard Time, mandolin at mac.com writes: 



    As in the case of Paulin, I'm not sure this is a free speech issue--and, since Seattle Pacific is a religious institution, it would seem to have 1st amendment protection for its position. 



  I agree.  This is not really a free speech issue; it's a matter of taste. 
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Nov 22 01:17:28 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:17:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Questioning Poets
Message-ID: <200211220616.gAM6GKie087298@mx8.mx.voyager.net>

So, are you having dinner with Levine, DClemens, or was this a hypothetical?
 Do tell.

I've never had much success at having profound conversations with writers I
admire.  Some are more gracious than others, but when you've been
interviewed as many times as someone like Levine, you've likely heard all
the questions a jillion times.

Probably better to ask Levine what sort of fertilizer he uses in his garden,
or how his kids are doing.  

I had a nice conversation with Robert Pinsky once over a Chinese meal before
a reading, and I don't think literature was mentioned.  And Donald Hall
knows a great many knock-knock jokes. . . .  Hall's one of the more gracious
poets, and the several times I met him he proved very happy to offer not
just jokes, but literary opinions, gossip, and recitations of favorite
poems.  

In college I once went up to James Wright after a reading and asked him to
explain an allusion in one of his poems that I couldn't track down.  He just
stared at me for a moment, then turned away.

A few years back I waited for almost 2 hours to see Gwendolyn Brooks after a
reading.  I didn't need to ask her anything--just wanted to look at her. 
Luckily I had plenty of time to do so, since she would have a real
conversation with every single person who wanted to talk with her, and I saw
her give out her address to several high school kids and demand that they
send her some of their poems.  In the end I just asked her to sign my copy
of *In the Mecca* and she asked *me* a question:  "where on earth did you
find this old thing?"
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================


----------
From: DClemens at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1105 - 15 msgs
Date: Tue, Nov 19, 2002, 9:33 PM


So, if you were having dinner with Phillip Levine, what would you ask him? 
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From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com  Fri Nov 22 01:18:19 2002
From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:18:19 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard Re-invites poet
References: <5b.31a84e8c.2b0e5efc@aol.com> <019b01c291d2$e96debd0$49864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <019b01c291ef$284de500$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com>

> Was he Catholic or Protestant?  Just by the way, hatred in speech is a
> moment to moment occurrence in Northern Ireland.  Not everyone is
interested
> in peace.
>
> Zan

By background and upbringing, Protestant (Unionist), by sympathy Republican
(rather than Catholic).  But he shifted to England in his late teens to go
to university, and has been mostly based there ever since.

But "hatred of speech ..."  doesn't characterise Tom's poems.  See
especially _The Liberty Tree_.  He has a pretty complex take on The
Troubles.

Robin



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Nov 22 02:28:42 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 02:28:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Questioning Poets
Message-ID: <c1.2a98210e.2b0f36aa@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/22/2002 12:17:44 AM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> A few years back I waited for almost 2 hours to see Gwendolyn Brooks after a 
> reading.  I didn't need to ask her anything--just wanted to look at her.  
> Luckily I had plenty of time to do so, since she would have a real 
> conversation with every single person who wanted to talk with her, and I 
> saw her give out her address to several high school kids and demand that 
> they send her some of their poems.  In the end I just asked her to sign my 
> copy of *In the Mecca* and she asked *me* a question:  "where on earth did 
> you find this old thing?"

I've seen a slew of them, but she was truly the best of the bunch.  I once 
wrote her asking to buy some copies of a "Young Poet's Primer" for some kids 
I was working with.  She sent me a dozen, signed, and wouldn't take a cent.  
A great lady.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 22 06:31:05 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:31:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone poem
References: <200211220244.gAM2iZVY071548@mx4.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <006701c2921a$a62d8040$168cfea9@j1c1k6>

Rather nice poem--if almost perfectly exemplifying what I consider an
Iowa-School mainstream poem.
I guess I like it because I wrote a very similar one, except for my unIowa
interest in diction and metaphor (note, "Poem" is the persona of this and
others in a series of poems I used to write and hope to write more of
sometime):


Beachscene

Champion Florida Sun,
barnyard sea
rollicking with yachts,
and heron,
absolutely motionless,
at the water's edge to the right
of a deserted pier
two octaves below Stonehenge;
but Poem was thinking of skirts unpursued,
and whether he'd ever get laid again.

****




> A poem from this year's winner of the National Book Award for poetry,
though
> not from the winning book, which I haven't yet seen.
>
> A Moment
>
> Across the highway a heron stands
> in the flooded field. It stands
> as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
> as if the field belongs to herons.
> The air is clear and quiet.
> Snow melts on this second fair day.
> Mother and daughter,
> we sit in the parking lot
> with doughnuts and coffee.
> We are silent.
> For a moment the wall between us
> opens to the universe;
> then closes.
> And you go on saying
> you do not want to repeat my life.
>
> --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press.
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Nov 22 07:45:31 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:45:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets and Free Speech
In-Reply-To: <99.301541a6.2b0e6cd4@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3DDDE09B.5896.3D7D05@localhost>

On 21 Nov 2002 at 12:07, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> The November 6-19 issue of Christian Century (not online yet) has a 
> fascinating article about how poet Scott Cairns was "unhired" by Seattle 
> Pacific University after members of the administration read his poem 
> "Interval with Erato."

http://www.hotink.com/erato.html

 

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 22 09:18:00 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:18:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Questioning Poets
In-Reply-To: <200211220616.gAM6GKie087298@mx8.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEOLFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Stepped onto one of the famously unpredictable elevators
here at Westbeth once and found myself face to face with
John Cage, who was probably coming down from the
Merce Cunningham studio on the 11th floor. Since I couldn't
think of any questions to ask him, we shared a comfortable
silence for a few moments. Then I said, "I enjoy your work."
And he, with one of those smiles, said, "Thank you."

Hal         "is there enough silence here for a glass of water"
                                  --David Antin
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 22 09:20:37 2002
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:20:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Questioning Poets
In-Reply-To: <c1.2a98210e.2b0f36aa@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20021122142037.10787.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com>


I wrote Phil Levine a letter once, sent him some poems, too.  He wrote back, very graciously.  His handwriting, by the way, is horrible--worse that mine, which is saying a lot. 
In his letter, he was supportive of my work, though he did completely dismiss one of my poems.  He talked about giving "texture" to my language--that stuck with me.  It's a comment I now use with my own writing students.
Jeff Newberry
 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:In a message dated 11/22/2002 12:17:44 AM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
A few years back I waited for almost 2 hours to see Gwendolyn Brooks after a reading.  I didn't need to ask her anything--just wanted to look at her.  Luckily I had plenty of time to do so, since she would have a real conversation with every single person who wanted to talk with her, and I saw her give out her address to several high school kids and demand that they send her some of their poems.  In the end I just asked her to sign my copy of *In the Mecca* and she asked *me* a question:  "where on earth did you find this old thing?"

I've seen a slew of them, but she was truly the best of the bunch.  I once wrote her asking to buy some copies of a "Young Poet's Primer" for some kids I was working with.  She sent me a dozen, signed, and wouldn't take a cent.  A great lady. 


---------------------------------
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Nov 22 10:00:51 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:00:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Questioning Poets/Brooks
Message-ID: <200211221459.gAMExhqd072792@mx2.mx.voyager.net>

Once a student of mine talked with Gwendolyn Brooks after a reading, and
happened to mention that he had studied her work in a seminar of mine.  So
she sent him back to campus with a chapbook inscribed to me, with several
lines marked for my special attention.  
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================



I've seen a slew of them, but she was truly the best of the bunch.  I once
wrote her asking to buy some copies of a "Young Poet's Primer" for some kids
I was working with.  She sent me a dozen, signed, and wouldn't take a cent. 
A great lady. 
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Nov 22 10:06:49 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:06:49 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Questioning Poets/Caged
Message-ID: <200211221505.gAMF5ehT064493@mx6.mx.voyager.net>

Hal, I certainly hope you're at work on a poem called "A Few Moments of
Silence With John Cage." 

I had an even more Cage-like moment in an elevator once with Sharon Olds.  I
just smiled at her, and she smiled back.  Then we both looked at the door
until it opened. . . .  It was, oh, about 33 seconds of silence, I reckon.
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================

>Stepped onto one of the famously unpredictable elevators
>here at Westbeth once and found myself face to face with
>John Cage, who was probably coming down from the
>Merce Cunningham studio on the 11th floor. Since I couldn't
>think of any questions to ask him, we shared a comfortable
>silence for a few moments. Then I said, "I enjoy your work."
>And he, with one of those smiles, said, "Thank you."
>
>Hal       


From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 22 10:28:43 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:28:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Questioning Poets/Caged
In-Reply-To: <200211221505.gAMF5ehT064493@mx6.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEONFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

   
{    I had an even more Cage-like moment in an elevator once with Sharon Olds.  I
{    just smiled at her, and she smiled back.  Then we both looked at the door
{    until it opened. . . .  

That's a shame. She was probably giving you her best profile too.

Hal         This Is Not A Passenger Elevator

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Nov 22 12:06:05 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:06:05 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] News
In-Reply-To: <3DDD94D5.6C66DF38@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <BA03C01D.3B0C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 11/21/02 8:22 PM, Mark Baker at griffinbaker at shaw.ca wrote:

> John Carey recently wrote an article in TLS making the unpoetic argument
> you make poetically here, Paul. He called Milton's Samson simply a
> terrorist. You could follow the usual run of heated (of course) debate
> that followed in the letters section for about a month.
> 
> Paul Lake wrote:
> 
>>              News from Gaza
>> 
>> Seized by the spirit of the Lord,
>> He killed a lion with bare hands,
>> Slew thirty men without a sword,
>> And slaughtered foes by the battalion
>> With just the jaw bone of an ass
>> To drive them from disputed lands;
>> Tied firebrands to jackals? tails
>> Then loosed them in the enemy?s corn,
>> Burning their vineyards, fields and groves
>> Until both hair and strength were shorn.
>> Then, captive, broken, chained, and blind,
>> And circled by a festive crowd,
>> He grasped their temple?s central poles,
>> Called on his god, and brought it down,
>> Killing himself along with hosts
>> Of the much-hated Philistines.
>> 
>> What is the moral of this tale?
>> What else, but that when building nations,
>> To nurse a grudge for generations;
>> To preface slaughter with a prayer;
>> To jaw bone foes when weapons fail;
>> To stand apart while loosing jackals;
>> To catch your foes packed into temples
>> Or market squares and kill wholesale.
>> 
>> Paul Lake
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Thanks, Mark. I hadn't read the TLS essay and debate, but I'll try to track
it down. I was working from the biblical account rather than Milton's.

Paul Lake



From cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov 22 12:14:45 2002
From: cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net (cindymonroe)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:14:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
References: <20021122150002.95B2210200@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <000b01c2924a$a8e4d740$58e23ccc@net>

I have to react to the Ruth Stone piece. I think it's god-awful. There is
nothing of interest here in either technique or content. Even the last line,
which hints at something that might be interesting, seems totally phony.
What would the kid (real or imaginary) really say? Now, that might be a good
starting point for something. I know a bunch of you'all probably feel
differently, but as for me--I can't stand to read one more of these types of
(well I really wouldn't call them) poems.

Cindy M.





From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Nov 22 12:29:07 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:29:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
In-Reply-To: <000b01c2924a$a8e4d740$58e23ccc@net>
Message-ID: <BA03C583.3B13%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 11/22/02 11:14 AM, cindymonroe at cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net wrote:

> I have to react to the Ruth Stone piece. I think it's god-awful. There is
> nothing of interest here in either technique or content. Even the last line,
> which hints at something that might be interesting, seems totally phony.
> What would the kid (real or imaginary) really say? Now, that might be a good
> starting point for something. I know a bunch of you'all probably feel
> differently, but as for me--I can't stand to read one more of these types of
> (well I really wouldn't call them) poems.
> 
> Cindy M.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
I felt the same way as you, Cindy. You're not alone.

Paul Lake



From mandolin at mac.com  Fri Nov 22 13:26:39 2002
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:26:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
Message-ID: <7185150.1037989599290.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Friday, Nov 22, 2002, at 12:29PM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:

>on 11/22/02 11:14 AM, cindymonroe at cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
>> I have to react to the Ruth Stone piece. I think it's god-awful. There is
>> nothing of interest here in either technique or content. Even the last line,
>> which hints at something that might be interesting, seems totally phony.
>> What would the kid (real or imaginary) really say? Now, that might be a good
>> starting point for something. I know a bunch of you'all probably feel
>> differently, but as for me--I can't stand to read one more of these types of
>> (well I really wouldn't call them) poems.
>> 
>> Cindy M.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>I felt the same way as you, Cindy. You're not alone.
>
>Paul Lake
>

In fact, there's at last a crowd of us.


From mandolin at mac.com  Fri Nov 22 13:30:20 2002
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:30:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
Message-ID: <2569593.1037989820104.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Friday, Nov 22, 2002, at 01:26PM, Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com> wrote:


>In fact, there's at last a crowd of us.

I meant "at least," but I'm not unhappy with what I typed.


From DClemens at aol.com  Fri Nov 22 13:37:04 2002
From: DClemens at aol.com (DClemens at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:37:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1110 - 9 msgs
Message-ID: <1c5.1fd156c.2b0fd350@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/22/2002 7:02:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes:


> So, are you having dinner with Levine, DClemens, or was this a hypothetical?
> Do tell.
> 

David Clemens--yes, in the spring.  Spent an afternoon with Derek Walcott a 
couple of years ago, tongue-tied with awe and acute awareness of my ability 
to ask the inane.  To be personal seems intrusive; to ask anything else, it 
seems a poet would simply point to his/her work.  That seems to leave, "How 
about those Giants?"  I recall George Steiner's take: the more accessible the 
poem, the greater the betrayal of the "personal need," madness and silence 
being the most perfect "personal codes."  I'm not a poet, just a po' ole 
country schoolteacher, so I wondered what you real poets would ask another.   

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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 22 14:15:45 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:15:45 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
References: <7185150.1037989599290.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <3DDE8260.60C23547@earthlink.net>


Michael Snider wrote:
> 
> 
> On Friday, Nov 22, 2002, at 12:29PM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:
> 
> >on 11/22/02 11:14 AM, cindymonroe at cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net wrote:
> >
> >> I have to react to the Ruth Stone piece. I think it's god-awful. There is
> >> nothing of interest here in either technique or content. Even the last line,
> >> which hints at something that might be interesting, seems totally phony.
> >> What would the kid (real or imaginary) really say? Now, that might be a good
> >> starting point for something. I know a bunch of you'all probably feel
> >> differently, but as for me--I can't stand to read one more of these types of
> >> (well I really wouldn't call them) poems.
> >>
> >> Cindy M.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >I felt the same way as you, Cindy. You're not alone.
> >
> >Paul Lake
> >
> 
> In fact, there's at last a crowd of us.

And growing!

- me-too Jim


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Nov 22 14:31:51 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:31:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
Message-ID: <200211221930.gAMJUi61042064@mx0.mx.voyager.net>

Just out of idle curiosity, what exactly is godawful about Stone's poem?  Is
it the understatement?  The plainstyle diction and syntax?  The heron?  

Not sure just what's "phony" in the last line, for one thing.  If your child
has never said something to you like "I hope I never become like you," well,
you're a lucky parent. . . .  Well, I've liked this lyric quite a lot ever
since I first read it in Bly's *Best American Poetry* anthology, but, de
gustibus and all that.

Here's the poem again, if you missed it; another several follow.


A Moment

Across the highway a heron stands
in the flooded field. It stands
as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
as if the field belongs to herons.
The air is clear and quiet.
Snow melts on this second fair day.
Mother and daughter,
we sit in the parking lot
with doughnuts and coffee.
We are silent.
For a moment the wall between us
opens to the universe;
then closes.
And you go on saying
you do not want to repeat my life.

--Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

If you're not familiar with Ruth Stone's work, the above isn't particularly
characteristic, by the way.  She tends to be quirkier, less linear in her
narrative than that.  As in this one, for example, which I am sure not
everyone will like, either:

Relatives  

Grandma lives in this town;
in fact all over this town.
Granpa's dead.
Uncle Heery's brain-dead,
and them aunts! Well!
It's grandma you have to contend with.
She's here - she's there!
She works in the fast food hangout.
She's doing school lunches.
She's the crossing guard at the school corner.
She's the librarian's assistant. 
She's part-time in the real estate office.
She's stuffing envelopes.
She gets up at three A.M.
to go to the screw factory;
and at night she's at the business school
taking a course in computer science.
Now you take this next town.
Grandpa's laid out in the cemetery 
and grandma's gone wild and bought a bus ticket
to Disneyland.
Uncle Bimbo's been laid up for ten years
and them aunts
are all cashiers in ladies' clothing
and grandma couldn't stand the sight of them
washing their hands and their hair 
and their panty hose.
"It's Marine World for me" grandma says.

--Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

Or this--

Madison in the Mid-Sixties 

Names, can you talk without their mirage?
What was his name . . . that rock star,
the one whose plane went down in the lake?
Trees talked all winter in click language.
It was a long drive from the East.
I arrived penniless;
called the Chairman.
"Find a motel," he said.
I could hear the background dinner party.
"Take a motel."
I sat in the Oldsmobile.
The Olds would later drop its front end
on the Interstate,
my mother in the backseat 
and the hamster and Abigail.
University, where Roger, the graduate student,
gave me his endless poems to read, all
under the influence of Vasco Popa,
all mediocre.
The futile student protests,
napalm and the Feds.
My brains wadded like the Patchwork Girl of Oz;
maced lungs, the National Guard
lined up on either side of the main walk,
rifles cocked just above the passing heads,
a surefire canopy of death.
This montage upon which we write the message
that fails in language after language.

--Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

And here's the title poem of the new book that just won the award:

In the Next Galaxy

Things will be different.
No one will lose their sight,
their hearing, their gallbladder.
It will be all Catskills with brand
new wrap-around verandas.
The idea of Hitler will not 
have vibrated yet.
While back here,
they are still cleaning out
pockets of wrinkled
Nazis hiding in Argentina.
But in the next galaxy,
certain planets will have true
blue skies and drinking water.

--Ruth Stone.  *In the Next Galaxy*.  Copper Canyon.





========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================


----------
>From: Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
>Date: Fri, Nov 22, 2002, 12:26 PM
>

> 
>On Friday, Nov 22, 2002, at 12:29PM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:
>
>>on 11/22/02 11:14 AM, cindymonroe at cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net wrote:
>>
>>> I have to react to the Ruth Stone piece. I think it's god-awful. There is
>>> nothing of interest here in either technique or content. Even the last line,
>>> which hints at something that might be interesting, seems totally phony.
>>> What would the kid (real or imaginary) really say? Now, that might be a good
>>> starting point for something. I know a bunch of you'all probably feel
>>> differently, but as for me--I can't stand to read one more of these types of
>>> (well I really wouldn't call them) poems.
>>> 
>>> Cindy M.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>> 
>>I felt the same way as you, Cindy. You're not alone.
>>
>>Paul Lake
>>
>
>In fact, there's at last a crowd of us.
>_______________________________________________


From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Fri Nov 22 15:09:57 2002
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:09:57 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
Message-ID: <4d.27cbb538.2b0fe915@aol.com>

I'm with you, David. Seems a lovely and affecting poem to me, and brave, 
filled with music and careful attention to craft. The opacity of it, that 
near perfect capture of what parents know (I'm one, it rings true to me) -- 
that wall opening for a moment, closing too quickly. I like a poet who, these 
days, isn't afraid of an outright symbol (the heron, the flooded field). In 
my experience, the flooded field does belong to herons, or it doesn't at any 
rate belong to me. That moment when a child figures it's preferable not, 
after all, to be like the parent, is harrowing, certainly disabusing. 
Powerful, then, this message plainly said. Is there anywhere a more 
devastating trope than understatement? And how plain after all? Which part of 
a mother's life is to be shunned? More than that is the implicit subtlety: 
that a child knows what's not to like, what's to like, in a lived life, or in 
an imagined one. As if anybody knows. As if that turndown would not resonate 
beyond the borders of the poem. Of course it does. 

Jeffrey Levine

In a message dated 11/22/2002 2:31:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> Just out of idle curiosity, what exactly is godawful about Stone's poem?  Is
> it the understatement?  The plainstyle diction and syntax?  The heron?  
> 
> Not sure just what's "phony" in the last line, for one thing.  If your 
> child
> has never said something to you like "I hope I never become like you," 
> well,
> you're a lucky parent. . . .  Well, I've liked this lyric quite a lot ever
> since I first read it in Bly's *Best American Poetry* anthology, but, de
> gustibus and all that.
> 
> Here's the poem again, if you missed it; another several follow.
> 
> 
> A Moment
> 
> Across the highway a heron stands
> in the flooded field. It stands
> as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
> as if the field belongs to herons.
> The air is clear and quiet.
> Snow melts on this second fair day.
> Mother and daughter,
> we sit in the parking lot
> with doughnuts and coffee.
> We are silent.
> For a moment the wall between us
> opens to the universe;
> then closes.
> And you go on saying
> you do not want to repeat my life.
> 
> --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
> *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
> 
> If you're not familiar with Ruth Stone's work, the above isn't particularly
> characteristic, by the way.  She tends to be quirkier, less linear in her
> narrative than that.  As in this one, for example, which I am sure not
> everyone will like, either:
> 
> Relatives  
> 
> Grandma lives in this town;
> in fact all over this town.
> Granpa's dead.
> Uncle Heery's brain-dead,
> and them aunts! Well!
> It's grandma you have to contend with.
> She's here - she's there!
> She works in the fast food hangout.
> She's doing school lunches.
> She's the crossing guard at the school corner.
> She's the librarian's assistant. 
> She's part-time in the real estate office.
> She's stuffing envelopes.
> She gets up at three A.M.
> to go to the screw factory;
> and at night she's at the business school
> taking a course in computer science.
> Now you take this next town.
> Grandpa's laid out in the cemetery 
> and grandma's gone wild and bought a bus ticket
> to Disneyland.
> Uncle Bimbo's been laid up for ten years
> and them aunts
> are all cashiers in ladies' clothing
> and grandma couldn't stand the sight of them
> washing their hands and their hair 
> and their panty hose.
> "It's Marine World for me" grandma says.
> 
> --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
> *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
> 
> Or this--
> 
> Madison in the Mid-Sixties 
> 
> Names, can you talk without their mirage?
> What was his name . . . that rock star,
> the one whose plane went down in the lake?
> Trees talked all winter in click language.
> It was a long drive from the East.
> I arrived penniless;
> called the Chairman.
> "Find a motel," he said.
> I could hear the background dinner party.
> "Take a motel."
> I sat in the Oldsmobile.
> The Olds would later drop its front end
> on the Interstate,
> my mother in the backseat 
> and the hamster and Abigail.
> University, where Roger, the graduate student,
> gave me his endless poems to read, all
> under the influence of Vasco Popa,
> all mediocre.
> The futile student protests,
> napalm and the Feds.
> My brains wadded like the Patchwork Girl of Oz;
> maced lungs, the National Guard
> lined up on either side of the main walk,
> rifles cocked just above the passing heads,
> a surefire canopy of death.
> This montage upon which we write the message
> that fails in language after language.
> 
> --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
> *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
> 
> And here's the title poem of the new book that just won the award:
> 
> In the Next Galaxy
> 
> Things will be different.
> No one will lose their sight,
> their hearing, their gallbladder.
> It will be all Catskills with brand
> new wrap-around verandas.
> The idea of Hitler will not 
> have vibrated yet.
> While back here,
> they are still cleaning out
> pockets of wrinkled
> Nazis hiding in Argentina.
> But in the next galaxy,
> certain planets will have true
> blue skies and drinking water.
> 
> --Ruth Stone.  *In the Next Galaxy*.  Copper Canyon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>   Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>   Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
> undergraduate education."
>   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
> 
> 
> ----------
> >From: Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
> >Date: Fri, Nov 22, 2002, 12:26 PM
> >
> 
> >
> >On Friday, Nov 22, 2002, at 12:29PM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> 
> wrote:
> >
> >>on 11/22/02 11:14 AM, cindymonroe at cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net wrote:
> >>
> >>>I have to react to the Ruth Stone piece. I think it's god-awful. There 
> is
> >>>nothing of interest here in either technique or content. Even the last 
> line,
> >>>which hints at something that might be interesting, seems totally phony.
> >>>What would the kid (real or imaginary) really say? Now, that might be a 
> good
> >>>starting point for something. I know a bunch of you'all probably feel
> >>>differently, but as for me--I can't stand to read one more of these 
> types of
> >>>(well I really wouldn't call them) poems.
> >>>
> >>>Cindy M.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>New-Poetry mailing list
> >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>>
> >>I felt the same way as you, Cindy. You're not alone.
> >>
> >>Paul Lake
> >>
> >
> >In fact, there's at last a crowd of us.
> >_______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

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From ccooley at overdomain.com  Fri Nov 22 16:12:22 2002
From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:12:22 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
In-Reply-To: <20021122030902.4CBEA101C7@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKGEJHCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

I think a statement like the one attributed to Paulin below ("They should be
shot dead") is an example of what Jonathon Swift might call Imperfect Rage.
Like combustion, rage that is imperfect creates toxic fumes; Perfect Rage
would result in only water and CO2. (Example: Swift's _Modest Proposal_)
And, to address the real concern of Global Warming, it creates far less CO2
than other forms of combustion.


> Message: 2
> From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]
> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:36:03 -0000
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>
> > Two more comments.  (1) I strongly suspect that we're getting very
> distorted
> > reports about Paulin.
>
> Yes and know.  Much (all?) of this is seems to be turning on the
> final lines
> of the Al-Ahram interview:
>
> http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/580/cu2.htm
>
> <<
> So how does the suicide bomber fit within this balance of power?
>
> "I can understand how suicide bombers feel," he answers. "It is an
> expression of deep injustice and tragedy. I think -- though -- that it is
> better to resort to conventional guerrilla warfare. I think attacks on
> civilians in fact boost morale. Hitler bombed London into
> submission but in
> fact it created a sense of national solidarity."
>
> If there is one thing Paulin clearly abhors about Israel, it is the
> Brooklyn--born Jewish settlers.
>
> "They should be shot dead," he says forcefully. "I think they are Nazis,
> racists, I feel nothing but hatred for them."
> >>
>
> (For which, incidentally, he's already disowned and/or apologised for.)
>
> One of the astounding things about much of the brouhaha that's lately
> errupted over this is that nobody seems to have bothered to go back to the
> bloody interview that started all this in the first place.  It's
> not really
> that difficult.
>
> Robin Hamilton
>
> [Incidentally, in case it's not obvious, I find the passage I quoted above
> both obscene and wholly uncharacteristic of Tom Paulin.  But he
> did say it.
>
> R.]




From DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com  Fri Nov 22 15:20:07 2002
From: DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 02 15:20:07 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone poem
Message-ID: <200211222022.gAMKMEFS084954@northrelay03.pok.ibm.com>

Cindy M. wrote:
>>I have to react to the Ruth Stone piece. I think it's god-awful. There is
>>nothing of interest here in either technique or content. Even the last line,
>>which hints at something that might be interesting, seems totally phony.
>>What would the kid (real or imaginary) really say? Now, that might be a good
>>starting point for something. I know a bunch of you'all probably feel
>>differently, but as for me--I can't stand to read one more of these types of
>>(well I really wouldn't call them) poems.
>>
>>Cindy M.
>>
Seconded - word for word I agree.

Richard


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Nov 22 18:04:23 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:04:23 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
Message-ID: <167.176bc5e2.2b1011f7@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/22/02 2:31:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

Thank you, David, for calling for specific reasons to discount
the poem. I agree with what Jeff said about the sentiments of the
poem being right...they feel right to me. And I have no trouble
with plain style lyrics nor the poem's use of understatement...
however:
> 
>  A Moment
>  
>  Across the highway a heron stands
>  in the flooded field. It stands
>  as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
>  as if the field belongs to herons.
Here I would prefer something even plainer or
at least with less intrusion of human characteristics 
upon this scene of the heron: Scratch "as if lost in thought" 
and "as if the field belongs to herons." 

>  The air is clear and quiet.
>  Snow melts on this second fair day.
>  Mother and daughter,
>  we sit in the parking lot
>  with doughnuts and coffee.
>  We are silent.
>  For a moment the wall between us
>  opens to the universe;
>  then closes.
The imagery here is somewhat wan.
Better description might vivify the
scene: What kind of doughnuts do they
each like?
But the real problem in this section
is that the poem reaches too much with that
very grand "the wall between us opens
to the universe." Besides being an outlandish
claim in & of itself, the poet is asking us
to believe that they both, mother & daughter,
at once, experience the same kind of revelation,
...which even for lesser visions would be a stretch.
Anyway, I don't buy it.

>  And you go on saying
>  you do not want to repeat my life.
Better here would be a straight quote
of something the daughter said to the
mother.....More forceful than our having
 to take the speaker's word for it.

>  
>  --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.


From bardo at optonline.net  Fri Nov 22 18:11:31 2002
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:11:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
References: <200211221930.gAMJUi61042064@mx0.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c2927c$7e9d8e50$ec59bd18@MULDER>

Stone's poem seems too inert for a 'wall' to have 'opened to the
universe' -- that idea hasn't got (sorry) a leg to stand on, despite the
stilted (sorry) invocation of the heron & despite the doughnuts. She doesn't
show anything that rings of opening, & that seems more like non-statement
than understatement. If this poem takes its methodological inspiration from
Williams' "no ideas but in things," the things here don't do enough ("as if
. . .as if . . .") to count for much of an idea. Compare Bly's "Looking at
Some Flowers" from _The Light Around the Body_, where "the ground this house
is on, / Only free of the sea for five or six thousand years" becomes more
than a mere fact because Bly has set it up with "sunlight drifting onto the
carpet / Where the casket stands, not knowing which world it is in." Stone's
tentative heron and mute snack don't seem to set up either the brief opening
or its closing, so the poem offers closing without closure. Even the
identity of the "you" in the last two lines remains ambiguous (her daughter?
a possibly unsympathetic reader?). I wouldn't call the poem "godawful,"
though--just disappointingly morose. If this kind of moment deserves a
chronicle--especially a baited one, with a barb at the end--it should come
as little surprise that someone doesn't want to repeat Stone's life.

--Dan Zimmerman

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 2:31 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem


> Just out of idle curiosity, what exactly is godawful about Stone's poem?
Is
> it the understatement?  The plainstyle diction and syntax?  The heron?
>
> Not sure just what's "phony" in the last line, for one thing.  If your
child
> has never said something to you like "I hope I never become like you,"
well,
> you're a lucky parent. . . .  Well, I've liked this lyric quite a lot ever
> since I first read it in Bly's *Best American Poetry* anthology, but, de
> gustibus and all that.
>
> Here's the poem again, if you missed it; another several follow.
>
>
> A Moment
>
> Across the highway a heron stands
> in the flooded field. It stands
> as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
> as if the field belongs to herons.
> The air is clear and quiet.
> Snow melts on this second fair day.
> Mother and daughter,
> we sit in the parking lot
> with doughnuts and coffee.
> We are silent.
> For a moment the wall between us
> opens to the universe;
> then closes.
> And you go on saying
> you do not want to repeat my life.
>
> --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
> *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
>
> If you're not familiar with Ruth Stone's work, the above isn't
particularly
> characteristic, by the way.  She tends to be quirkier, less linear in her
> narrative than that.  As in this one, for example, which I am sure not
> everyone will like, either:
>
> Relatives
>
> Grandma lives in this town;
> in fact all over this town.
> Granpa's dead.
> Uncle Heery's brain-dead,
> and them aunts! Well!
> It's grandma you have to contend with.
> She's here - she's there!
> She works in the fast food hangout.
> She's doing school lunches.
> She's the crossing guard at the school corner.
> She's the librarian's assistant.
> She's part-time in the real estate office.
> She's stuffing envelopes.
> She gets up at three A.M.
> to go to the screw factory;
> and at night she's at the business school
> taking a course in computer science.
> Now you take this next town.
> Grandpa's laid out in the cemetery
> and grandma's gone wild and bought a bus ticket
> to Disneyland.
> Uncle Bimbo's been laid up for ten years
> and them aunts
> are all cashiers in ladies' clothing
> and grandma couldn't stand the sight of them
> washing their hands and their hair
> and their panty hose.
> "It's Marine World for me" grandma says.
>
> --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
> *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
>
> Or this--
>
> Madison in the Mid-Sixties
>
> Names, can you talk without their mirage?
> What was his name . . . that rock star,
> the one whose plane went down in the lake?
> Trees talked all winter in click language.
> It was a long drive from the East.
> I arrived penniless;
> called the Chairman.
> "Find a motel," he said.
> I could hear the background dinner party.
> "Take a motel."
> I sat in the Oldsmobile.
> The Olds would later drop its front end
> on the Interstate,
> my mother in the backseat
> and the hamster and Abigail.
> University, where Roger, the graduate student,
> gave me his endless poems to read, all
> under the influence of Vasco Popa,
> all mediocre.
> The futile student protests,
> napalm and the Feds.
> My brains wadded like the Patchwork Girl of Oz;
> maced lungs, the National Guard
> lined up on either side of the main walk,
> rifles cocked just above the passing heads,
> a surefire canopy of death.
> This montage upon which we write the message
> that fails in language after language.
>
> --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
> *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
>
> And here's the title poem of the new book that just won the award:
>
> In the Next Galaxy
>
> Things will be different.
> No one will lose their sight,
> their hearing, their gallbladder.
> It will be all Catskills with brand
> new wrap-around verandas.
> The idea of Hitler will not
> have vibrated yet.
> While back here,
> they are still cleaning out
> pockets of wrinkled
> Nazis hiding in Argentina.
> But in the next galaxy,
> certain planets will have true
> blue skies and drinking water.
>
> --Ruth Stone.  *In the Next Galaxy*.  Copper Canyon.
>
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
>
>
> ----------
> >From: Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
> >Date: Fri, Nov 22, 2002, 12:26 PM
> >
>
> >
> >On Friday, Nov 22, 2002, at 12:29PM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
wrote:
> >
> >>on 11/22/02 11:14 AM, cindymonroe at cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have to react to the Ruth Stone piece. I think it's god-awful. There
is
> >>> nothing of interest here in either technique or content. Even the last
line,
> >>> which hints at something that might be interesting, seems totally
phony.
> >>> What would the kid (real or imaginary) really say? Now, that might be
a good
> >>> starting point for something. I know a bunch of you'all probably feel
> >>> differently, but as for me--I can't stand to read one more of these
types of
> >>> (well I really wouldn't call them) poems.
> >>>
> >>> Cindy M.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> New-Poetry mailing list
> >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>>
> >>I felt the same way as you, Cindy. You're not alone.
> >>
> >>Paul Lake
> >>
> >
> >In fact, there's at last a crowd of us.
> >_______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Nov 22 22:14:59 2002
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS  RICHARDS)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:14:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
References: <7185150.1037989599290.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <007e01c2929e$9c5fb040$043affd1@ibm25310>

Yeah. Another vote. It's a cookie-cutter poem.

Tad Richards
http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
art - poetry - links
www.opus40.org
Harvey Fite's monumental earth sculpture
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem


>
> On Friday, Nov 22, 2002, at 12:29PM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
wrote:
>
> >on 11/22/02 11:14 AM, cindymonroe at cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net wrote:
> >
> >> I have to react to the Ruth Stone piece. I think it's god-awful. There
is
> >> nothing of interest here in either technique or content. Even the last
line,
> >> which hints at something that might be interesting, seems totally
phony.
> >> What would the kid (real or imaginary) really say? Now, that might be a
good
> >> starting point for something. I know a bunch of you'all probably feel
> >> differently, but as for me--I can't stand to read one more of these
types of
> >> (well I really wouldn't call them) poems.
> >>
> >> Cindy M.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >I felt the same way as you, Cindy. You're not alone.
> >
> >Paul Lake
> >
>
> In fact, there's at last a crowd of us.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Fri Nov 22 22:43:52 2002
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS  RICHARDS)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:43:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
References: <200211221930.gAMJUi61042064@mx0.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <00b501c292a2$a69a9120$043affd1@ibm25310>

I kind of hate doing this -- it's too easy, and often feels too much like a
setup, to start chipping away at a poem, so before I do, let me just quote a
few lines read recently that did take my breath away, from the 16-year-old
Paul Muldoon:

You were first
The ewe licked clean ochre and lake
But you would not move.
Weighted with stones yet
Dead your dead head floats.
Better dead than sheep

There's real weight to the language, a real world observed, and I feel
myself taken somewhere that I couldn't have gotten to by myself ---
and....not quite sure if this is describing it right...the poem couldn't
have gotten there without me. I think the Stone poem, like a carnival pony,
will go the same place no matter who's riding it.

I don't buy that the heron opens the walls to the universe for them, because
the heron feels generic to me, another carnival pony. It allows mother and
daughter to thhink -- or allows mother to think that mother and daughter
think, and invites all parents to think the same way mom thinks -- that the
universe has opened up.

Because they've just both discovered that herons stand on one leg?

For me the phoniness is not that a daughter wouldn't say that, and not that
it's too much of a leap from what goes before. I don't think you can have
too much of a leap -- look at "Torso of Archaic Apollo" -- but the reader
has to want to take it...has to feel the thrill of his steed gathering
beneath him. OK, so that metaphor is starting to sound like beating a dead
horse. That's still my problem with the poem.


> Not sure just what's "phony" in the last line, for one thing.  If your
child
> has never said something to you like "I hope I never become like you,"
well,
> you're a lucky parent. . . .  Well, I've liked this lyric quite a lot ever
> since I first read it in Bly's *Best American Poetry* anthology, but, de
> gustibus and all that.
>
> Here's the poem again, if you missed it; another several follow.
>
>
> A Moment
>
> Across the highway a heron stands
> in the flooded field. It stands
> as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
> as if the field belongs to herons.
> The air is clear and quiet.
> Snow melts on this second fair day.
> Mother and daughter,
> we sit in the parking lot
> with doughnuts and coffee.
> We are silent.
> For a moment the wall between us
> opens to the universe;
> then closes.
> And you go on saying
> you do not want to repeat my life.
>
> --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
> *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
>
> If you're not familiar with Ruth Stone's work, the above isn't
particularly
> characteristic, by the way.  She tends to be quirkier, less linear in her
> narrative than that.  As in this one, for example, which I am sure not
> everyone will like, either:
>
> Relatives
>
> Grandma lives in this town;
> in fact all over this town.
> Granpa's dead.
> Uncle Heery's brain-dead,
> and them aunts! Well!
> It's grandma you have to contend with.
> She's here - she's there!
> She works in the fast food hangout.
> She's doing school lunches.
> She's the crossing guard at the school corner.
> She's the librarian's assistant.
> She's part-time in the real estate office.
> She's stuffing envelopes.
> She gets up at three A.M.
> to go to the screw factory;
> and at night she's at the business school
> taking a course in computer science.
> Now you take this next town.
> Grandpa's laid out in the cemetery
> and grandma's gone wild and bought a bus ticket
> to Disneyland.
> Uncle Bimbo's been laid up for ten years
> and them aunts
> are all cashiers in ladies' clothing
> and grandma couldn't stand the sight of them
> washing their hands and their hair
> and their panty hose.
> "It's Marine World for me" grandma says.
>
> --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
> *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
>
> Or this--
>
> Madison in the Mid-Sixties
>
> Names, can you talk without their mirage?
> What was his name . . . that rock star,
> the one whose plane went down in the lake?
> Trees talked all winter in click language.
> It was a long drive from the East.
> I arrived penniless;
> called the Chairman.
> "Find a motel," he said.
> I could hear the background dinner party.
> "Take a motel."
> I sat in the Oldsmobile.
> The Olds would later drop its front end
> on the Interstate,
> my mother in the backseat
> and the hamster and Abigail.
> University, where Roger, the graduate student,
> gave me his endless poems to read, all
> under the influence of Vasco Popa,
> all mediocre.
> The futile student protests,
> napalm and the Feds.
> My brains wadded like the Patchwork Girl of Oz;
> maced lungs, the National Guard
> lined up on either side of the main walk,
> rifles cocked just above the passing heads,
> a surefire canopy of death.
> This montage upon which we write the message
> that fails in language after language.
>
> --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
> *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
>
> And here's the title poem of the new book that just won the award:
>
> In the Next Galaxy
>
> Things will be different.
> No one will lose their sight,
> their hearing, their gallbladder.
> It will be all Catskills with brand
> new wrap-around verandas.
> The idea of Hitler will not
> have vibrated yet.
> While back here,
> they are still cleaning out
> pockets of wrinkled
> Nazis hiding in Argentina.
> But in the next galaxy,
> certain planets will have true
> blue skies and drinking water.
>
> --Ruth Stone.  *In the Next Galaxy*.  Copper Canyon.
>
>
>
>
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
>
>
> ----------
> >From: Michael Snider <mandolin at mac.com>
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
> >Date: Fri, Nov 22, 2002, 12:26 PM
> >
>
> >
> >On Friday, Nov 22, 2002, at 12:29PM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
wrote:
> >
> >>on 11/22/02 11:14 AM, cindymonroe at cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have to react to the Ruth Stone piece. I think it's god-awful. There
is
> >>> nothing of interest here in either technique or content. Even the last
line,
> >>> which hints at something that might be interesting, seems totally
phony.
> >>> What would the kid (real or imaginary) really say? Now, that might be
a good
> >>> starting point for something. I know a bunch of you'all probably feel
> >>> differently, but as for me--I can't stand to read one more of these
types of
> >>> (well I really wouldn't call them) poems.
> >>>
> >>> Cindy M.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> New-Poetry mailing list
> >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>>
> >>I felt the same way as you, Cindy. You're not alone.
> >>
> >>Paul Lake
> >>
> >
> >In fact, there's at last a crowd of us.
> >_______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 23 09:01:56 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:01:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
In-Reply-To: <PBEBLBBAEHCCBOOMDIDKGEJHCKAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEPKFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

In this context, I thought you might be interested in this piece
in today's NYT in which Edward Rothstein suggests retiring
the very concept of  "hate speech."

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

===============

November 23, 2002
Hateful Name-Calling Vs. Calling for Hateful Action
By EDWARD ROTHSTEIN


ate speech is a confused concept. It is impossible to defend crude name-calling and insensitivity, but is it so deserving of special
oprobrium? Even ordinary speech, after all, can express hatred. And even the most brutish expression of hatred can be less injurious
than deceitful expressions of good will. What about this approach: if speech offends, let it be freely attacked by opposing speech.
If it does more than offend but argues for hateful action ? well, that is more serious.

The problem is that these priorities are often inverted. Hate speech tends to be prosecuted as a grievous violation, but arguments
that can have far more hateful consequences tend to be protected as a freedom. Universities are particularly vulnerable to such
contrasts, because speech grounded in argument is what a university is all about, so it is ardently defended almost regardless of
content.

This leads to strange distinctions. Earlier this month, for example, Harvard University's English department withdrew its invitation
to the poet Tom Paulin to deliver its annual Morris Gray Lecture largely because of mounting protests over what Mr. Paulin had to
say about Israel. In April, Mr. Paulin gave an interview to a Cairo-based newspaper, Al-Ahram Weekly, in which he said of "Brooklyn
born" Jewish settlers on the West Bank: "They should be shot dead. I think they are Nazis, racists, I feel nothing but hatred for
them." He also said, "I never believed that Israel had the right to exist at all." Moreover, in a poem published in The Observer in
2001, he referred to the Israeli army as "the Zionist SS."

But the English department was soon attacked for its awkward reversal in a new wave of protests. In a letter to The Harvard Crimson,
Patrick Cavanagh, a Harvard psychology professor who signed a petition urging that Harvard disinvest in Israel called Harvard's
president, Lawrence H. Summers, "Ayatollah' Summers," accusing him of bigotry for his support of the department's retraction. (Mr.
Summers has recently criticized anti-Semitism on American campuses.)

The protestors seemed to suggest that Mr. Paulin wasn't really engaged in hate speech at all. He was actually making arguments ?
controversial political judgments ? that should be protected. And so, after a meeting on Tuesday, the department re-reversed itself.
Meanwhile, adding to the ironies, Harvard Law School is now debating a "speech code" that would bar certain forms of unpleasant
speech in classrooms. Would incitements to murder and allusions to the Zionist SS qualify?

The confusion over hate speech was also revealed in another recent controversy. The Stanford University Law School invited the
lawyer Lynne Stewart to be a Mills Public Interest Mentor in a program the school says is meant "to provide public-interest students
the opportunity to meet and learn from practitioners and scholars in public service."

But Ms. Stewart, a political radical who unsuccessfully defended Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman for his responsibility in the 1993 World
Trade Center bombing, was indicted last spring on charges of aiding a terrorist organization and illegally passing messages from the
sheik's prison cell. In particular, in June 2000, she publicly confirmed for the sheik's fundamentalist followers in Egypt that he
had called for an end to a cease-fire between those followers and the Egyptian government.

Ms. Stewart's assistance in that instance was not out of character. She said she believes in "violence directed at the institutions
which perpetuate capitalism, racism and sexism and at the people who are the appointed guardians of those institutions." In reacting
to the civilian deaths of 9/11, she said she was "pretty inured" to the idea that "in an armed struggle, people die."

In the current issue of Monthly Review, a radical journal, she makes clear the extent of her ideological convictions: "I don't have
any problem with Mao or Stalin or the Vietnamese leaders or certainly Fidel locking up people they see as dangerous." In those
cases, she argues, dissidence has often been used to "undermine a people's revolution." As for Muslim fundamentalists, they are, she
suggests, "forces of national liberation" and thus presumably entitled to such violence.

When some of this became widely known, protests mounted and the dean of the law school stripped Ms. Stewart of the title Mills
mentor. But her lectures and mentoring of students took place unhampered.

Yet Ms. Stewart's public service and proclamations may have caused violence (her declaration of the end of that cease-fire was
indeed followed by deaths in Egypt) as well as encouraged it against American targets. Presumably, only acts of hate speech would
have made her unwelcome at Stanford, but aren't her positions and actions already expressions of a virulent form of hatred?

In the Paulin case, even the most stringent interpretation of the hate speech doctrine may apply. Last spring, Mr. Paulin asserted
that his views had been "distorted" (though they were never retracted) and that "I do not support attacks on Israeli civilians under
any circumstances." He insisted that he is a "philo-semite." He has even defended his notorious poem, "Killed in Crossfire," with
its reference to the "Zionist SS" killing a "little Palestinian boy."

But that poem's language is loaded with bigoted baggage: it speaks in the name of a "we" ? "dumb goys" ? who are no longer taken in
by the "lying phrase" and "weasel" language of Zionists. These intimations of Jewish arrogance, lies and cheating tap into ancient
tropes.

The historical distortions and lack of context in these positions are immense and merit reconsideration, particularly since Mr.
Paulin is now engaged in telling the history of the Second World War in an eclectic poetic epic (the first volume, "The Invasion
Handbook," has just been published).

But the inaccuracy is a reflection of other sentiments. Not all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic, but not all criticism of Israel
is not anti-Semitic. When standards of justice are applied in profoundly distorted fashion, when those distortions put the literal
survival of a society at stake and when murders are taking place and explicitly encouraged, declarations are being made that may
even fit university standards for "hate speech."

Or perhaps the concept itself should just be retired; it leads to puritanical scrutiny in some cases and is completely ignored in
others. Besides, the current examples are far more serious than matters of mere speech. Distinguished institutions have officially
honored those who have not just preached forms of hatred but urged that murders be committed in the name of those hatreds ? at a
time when too many are too happy to oblige.




From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Sat Nov 23 11:34:31 2002
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:34:31 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1113 - 7 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20021123140302.A7F681020A@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021123083321.009fbec0@incoming.verizon.net>

A WORD FOR MR. PAULIN

>         murder

    (give him a prize)


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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov 23 12:48:31 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 12:48:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] More about Lilly gilding Poetry
Message-ID: <159.17e8a2af.2b11196f@aol.com>

> Poetry Hits the Jackpot
>
> November 21, 2002
> By MARTIN ARNOLD
>
> Financial bombshells in the book world usually
mean huge
> best sellers and jumbo advances. But last week
the big
> number was a bequest, and in a country coping
with
> corporate scandal and economic affliction and
about ready
> to march off to war, there was something
marvelously
> innovatory, out-of-step almost, about someone
investing
> what could be as much as $100 million in Poetry,
the
> magazine, and in poetry, the art. Which is
exactly what
> Ruth Lilly did, invest in poetry, a stunningly
pure
> benevolence. One can but wonder what this will
do for that
> most marginalized literary form. Visibility, for
sure,
> since suddenly there's lots of 0000's at the end
of the
> $$$$'s attached to the word poetry.
>
> For the monthly Poetry, which celebrated its
90th
> anniversary this year, the money from the
87-year-old heir
> to the Eli Lilly pharmaceutical fortune insured
its
> existence into perpetuity, an astonishing
happening for an
> esoteric publication with a circulation (until
today) of
> about 11,000. Certainly I think it's good for
poets and
> poetry. But Poets are a quirky lot, and the
first, but not
> lasting, reaction from some was concern, since
this
> peripheral art's loneliness was seen as part of
its
> strength; the next common reaction was that the
idea of
> connecting money to poetry was somehow unpoetic.
John
> Hollander, poet and Yale professor, questioned
whether it
> would be a plus to publish thousands more poetry
books. But
> it would be wonderful, he said, if some of the
money could
> encourage better poetry criticism.
>
> Alice Fulton, this year's winner of the $10,000
Bobbitt
> National Prize for Poetry for her book of poems
"Felt" (W.
> W. Norton), explained: "I was almost scared when
I heard
> about it. I had come to believe that
marginalization let
> poetry do what it wants to do, that the money
would take
> something good and make it bad. But that's being
afraid of
> change. Giving this to literature is staggering;
very few
> people care about poetry, and this will make it
a positive
> thing to people, so it can be empowering to
writers."
>
> Rita Dove, Pulitzer Prize-winning poet in 1987
and
> America's poet laureate from 1993 to 1995, said,
"I think
> it's a myth that if one receives money for
writing, it's
> corrupting." She added: "That's one of the myths
literary
> people have consoled themselves with. That
poetry is going
> to have money is a good thing. And I can't think
of anyone
> more deserving of money than Poetry magazine,
which has
> remained refreshingly honest over the years,
hasn't gone
> for trends." Ms. Dove's latest collection was
"On the Bus
> with Rosa Parks" (W. W. Norton, 1999).
>
> Poetry magazine was first published in 1912, and
since then
> to appear in it was to be part of a great
literary
> continuum, which ranged from Yeats and Eliot and
Sandburg
> and Stevens to Ms. Fulton and Ms. Dove and Billy
Collins
> (but not Ms. Lilly, whose own poetry was
rejected by the
> magazine). Mr. Collins, the current poet
laureate, said
> that "raising the fee from $2 a line to $2,000 a
line would
> be one poet's suggestion" for using the money.
Mr. Collins
> was, of course, joking, although Joseph Parisi,
the
> magazine's editor, said that fees to
contributors will be
> increased somewhat.
>
> For starters, he wants to use the money to
educate middle
> school and high school teachers in the richness
of poetry.
> "If you have dollar signs in front of something,
then
> people take an interest, can't seem to help but
focus, but
> that's not the best way to get attention," he
said. He
> envisions programs where teachers meet active
poets "and
> ask them such questions as `Where do their ideas
come
> from?' and `Why do you write?' The best way to
spend money
> is with teachers in workshops."
>
> He described it this way: "Make poetry a
reality, something
> of pleasure and love, not dry-as-dust theory,"
the joy and
> passion to be passed on to students. The
magazine,
> published by the Modern Poetry Association, also
plans to
> publish first collections of poetry - "We get to
see
> everything, and we get a pretty good idea of who
will be
> the new important poets," Mr. Parisi said. The
association
> has a collection of about 25,000 first editions
of poetry
> stashed away that it now wants to catalog and
display for
> scholars.
>
> But for now the magazine and the association -
and the
> community of poets - are simply trying to cope
with the
> immensity of it all. Deborah Cummins, president
of the
> association and a published poet, said, "For
most people
> poetry belongs in another sphere, and if
significance is
> measured by the dollar sign, as many believe,
then the
> underlining message of all this is that maybe
poetry has an
> importance we didn't know about."
>
> Poets speak. From Lisel Mueller, 1997 Pulitzer
Prize winner
> in poetry for "Alive Together" (Louisiana State
University
> Press): "Poetry is always a minority art, as is
chamber
> music a minority music, and I don't think this
will affect
> the reading public; I don't know if this will
have any
> general effect on poetry in general, but it will
allow the
> magazine to do more outreach programs, and that
will
> obviously be a shot in the arm."
>
> John Ashbery, winner of the Pulitzer Prize, the
National
> Book Award and National Book Critics Circle
Award, all in
> 1975, said he didn't "think all that money was
going to
> turn America into a country of passionate poetry
readers."
> He added, "That she did it after having her own
poetry
> rejected is almost the most interesting thing
about it."
> Mr. Ashbery's latest collection is "Chinese
Whispers"
> (Farrar, Straus & Giroux).
>
> For all that poets feel they are seldom read,
there are
> mainstream houses that have strong poetry
programs like
> Farrar, Straus & Giroux, Alfred A. Knopf, Norton
and
> Houghton Mifflin. The belief that money attached
to
> anything is like flypaper in its attraction
extends even to
> something as way out as poetry.
>
> Carol Houck Smith, who is a poetry editor at
Norton, said
> that when it comes to poetry "so many say, `Oh,
I can't
> read that,' but certainly more people are
writing poetry,
> and the announcement will make people less
anxious about
> poetry, and that's wonderful."
>
> Jill Bialosky, a Norton poetry editor and Knopf
poet, said
> the bequest "will bring more media attention and
more
> review attention to poetry and help create a
larger
> readership." And Deborah Garrison, poetry editor
at Knopf,
> also said she believes that the money "is a boon
for
> everybody who writes poetry," and addedthat when
"poetry is
> in front of people, they love it."
>
> All this may be true. But if Mr. Parisi and his
people
> could use money to get everyone who, in their
loneliness
> and passion, secretly scribbles verse to buy a
book of
> poetry that would truly revolutionize the art.
>
>
 Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 23 13:04:41 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:04:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEPKFNAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004601c2931a$cc52b3c0$826ffea9@j1c1k6>

>It is impossible to defend crude name-calling and >insensitivity.

Actually, it is impossible sanely to defend a statement as stupid as the
above.  I agreed with everything else Rothstein had to say.

--Bob G.





From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 23 13:13:45 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:13:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
In-Reply-To: <004601c2931a$cc52b3c0$826ffea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEAAFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    >It is impossible to defend crude name-calling and >insensitivity.
{    
{    Actually, it is impossible sanely to defend a statement as stupid as the
{    above.  I agreed with everything else Rothstein had to say.
{    
{    --Bob G.

E.R. may have meant it was impossible for *him* to defend
"crude name-calling and insensitivity." The NYT's editors
ain't what they used to be.

Hal         Not responsible for typographical errers.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 23 13:38:58 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:38:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEAAFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <008501c2931f$962b8920$826ffea9@j1c1k6>

> {    >It is impossible to defend crude name-calling and >insensitivity.
>

> {    Actually, it is impossible sanely to defend a statement as stupid as
the
> {    above.  I agreed with everything else Rothstein had to say.
>

> {    --Bob G.
>
> E.R. may have meant it was impossible for *him* to defend
> "crude name-calling and insensitivity." The NYT's editors
> ain't what they used to be.

> Hal         Not responsible for typographical errers.

Okay.  But I bet he could defend it if he really hadda.  Or if he really
thought about the fact that the propensity of human beings to call each
other crude names and be "insensitive" has lasted for too long not to have
some biological value.  I myself think it is the first step toward
tolerance: 1. nameless evil, 2. named evil, 3. named joke, 4. named
stranger, 5. named acquaintance, 6. named friend.

--Bob G.



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Nov 23 14:40:29 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:40:29 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
Message-ID: <200211231939.gANJdKYw049281@mx11.mx.voyager.net>

Some further thoughts on Ruth Stone's "A Moment."  I should say that even I,
who like the poem a good deal more than others do, don't think it's "Easter
1916."  For me it's a solid, moving little lyric, rather akin to Rexroth's
translations from the classical Chinese poets--spare, clear, and unafraid of
declarative statement.  

I can easily see finding it rather ho-hum, especially in its muted diction,
unadorned imagery, and simple syntax.  Tad Richards's comments on the
language and Jim Finnegan's complaint about "wan" imagery strike me as
entirely fair.  I like jazzier language, too, though my taste runs also to
the unadorned style.  And--though I wouldn't agree--I can see feeling that
its somewhat abrupt ending is "unearned," in workshop parlance.  

What surprised me a bit after I posted it was that a number of people were
roused to more active disdain.  After all, we poetry readers swim in
mediocrity daily, and that's not news.  But to find a poem "godawful," and
to be stirred to say so --that indicates an aesthetic fault line or two,
perhaps.  And the criticism of the poem seemed to come from numerous
directions, which also got my attention.

More to the point, then, the dispute over its merits gets at an issue that
perennially fascinates me:  the mysteries of taste.  And I suspect that to
the extent that we get specific about our likes and dislikes, we expose
larger issues that, for poets, are continually in need of re-examination.  

For one obvious instance, Stone's poem is a classic case of the lyric built
around an epiphany.  Even though no one said it in so many words, I'm
guessing that some dislike the mode it's written in.  And that others are so
tired of this kind of lyric that the bar is raised fairly high:  it better
be a really *good* epiphany to win them over.  (Honestly, too, I've noticed
that lyrics using natural imagery often receive especially harsh treatment. 
No one complained about the heron per se, so maybe I'm projecting in this
case.)  

Otherwise, comments on the poem, to the extent that they've pointed to
particulars, seem to focus on the poem's dramatic plausibility, clarity, and
effectiveness.  In some respects we're all over the map on what the poem
actually describes.  For what it's worth, here's my take on this poem's
little drama.

The poem describes an epiphanic moment for the speaker.  The moment is, like
most epiphanies, partly mysterious and certainly a bit beyond easy
description.  It apparently occurs in the midst of a mother-daughter talk
full of rancor and misunderstanding, but the poem is not about such things,
which is why I think the relationship isn't developed.  

Rather, the poem's about the brief moment of respite, when mother and
daughter simply shut up and look at the heron in the field and sit with
their coffee and donuts.  Often such moments occur in arguments, and they're
always opportunities, even if not acted on.  Then the argument resumes.  But
for that moment, the mother has her little epiphany about (well, here's
where language fails) self-absorption and the distance between people, for
which the heron serves as a symbolic projection.  

The poem ultimately seems to be about loneliness and isolation, even among
those most intimate.  The speaker never knows that the daughter is thinking,
only what she says; and that --that ignorance and distance-- seems part of
the point.  It's a very sad poem.

I think my reading is reinforced by the comment Stone offers in the *Best
American Poetry* volume that includes this poem:  

"I think I write most often from a parent's point of view, and yet I seldom
write explicitly about my children.  Perhaps because of our shared grief, we
respect our distances, our emotional boundaries; our rights to feel unique. 
In this poem I am resigned to this isolation.  Even with our children, we
are only among them for a moment.  I am silent with my own terrible
knowledge of what time does to us all; our lives, which are necessarily
enclosed, which necessarily exclude the vast amorphous other, as the heron
seems to behave as if the field belongs to the heron.  I am speaking of a
moment of illumination, an awareness beyond the self, that came as a gift; a
moment, which is all I can know of eternity."  

I don't think, then, that the poem claims that the daughter has any
epiphany.  To my mind, that's part of the point, the speaker's sense of
great isolation.  The wall between them "opens to the universe," i.e. the
potential for communication & understanding exists, but only for the
briefest moment, and it is not acted on. So I do think that the moment
described is a moment of failed opportunity--this mother and daughter
*could* have turned their gazes outward together, talked about the world
outside the car (heron, etc.), but they did not.  The mother is left alone
with her sense of illumination, which is also, sadly, a missed chance.  It's
a gift, but hardly a feel-good moment.

Now, the flawed assumptions, misreadings or over-readings I've made
according to my own taste will perhaps be pointed out to me. . . .

========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================
A Moment

Across the highway a heron stands
in the flooded field. It stands
as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
as if the field belongs to herons.
The air is clear and quiet.
Snow melts on this second fair day.
Mother and daughter,
we sit in the parking lot
with doughnuts and coffee.
We are silent.
For a moment the wall between us
opens to the universe;
then closes.
And you go on saying
you do not want to repeat my life.

--Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
*  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 23 14:54:18 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:54:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
In-Reply-To: <200211231939.gANJdKYw049281@mx11.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEAEFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    So I do think that the moment
{    described is a moment of failed opportunity--this mother and daughter
{    *could* have turned their gazes outward together, talked about the world
{    outside the car (heron, etc.), but they did not.  The mother is left alone
{    with her sense of illumination, which is also, sadly, a missed chance.  It's
{    a gift, but hardly a feel-good moment.

As for me, David, I don't believe that anything they might
have said to each other would have improved upon that 
moment of shared silence, just looking.

Hal         "is there enough silence here for a glass of water"
                                  --David Antin
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sat Nov 23 15:20:56 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 14:20:56 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment
Message-ID: <200211232019.gANKJlPc065163@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

>As for me, David, I don't believe that anything they might
>have said to each other would have improved upon that 
>moment of shared silence, just looking.
>
>Hal      

As for me, Hal, I've always liked the way Williams puts it in "Asphodel"--

     Silence can be complex, too,
            but you do not get far
                       with silence.
    
     Begin again.


========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 23 15:19:07 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:19:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
References: <200211231939.gANJdKYw049281@mx11.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <009b01c2932d$94165c60$826ffea9@j1c1k6>

I think the opened wall was experienced by both mother and daughter--pretty
moments in Nature DO move people that way sufficiently for the speaker to
assume the daughter shared her sense of being in a larger universe than
their discussion
 was.  I agree with whoever it was (more than one, I think) who said the
heron was not painted epiphany-large, so its opening the wall was a little
forced, or too taken for granted.

The daughter's remark to the mother seemed completely believable to me.  I
thought the poem moderately okay.  So, for once, I'm more with David Graham
than not.

I think the over-reaction to the perceived poorness of the poem was due to
its author's just having been given a Big Prize.  But also because it does
the same old things that the still dominant mainstream school does.  And,
David, someone did call the heron too standard a symbol, or something like
that.  Some good criticisms, too, were made of the poem for not doing as
well as it might the kind of things Iowa-school poems do.


David Graham wrote:

> Some further thoughts on Ruth Stone's "A Moment."  I should say that even
I,
> who like the poem a good deal more than others do, don't think it's
"Easter
> 1916."  For me it's a solid, moving little lyric, rather akin to Rexroth's
> translations from the classical Chinese poets--spare, clear, and unafraid
of
> declarative statement.
>
> I can easily see finding it rather ho-hum, especially in its muted
diction,
> unadorned imagery, and simple syntax.  Tad Richards's comments on the
> language and Jim Finnegan's complaint about "wan" imagery strike me as
> entirely fair.  I like jazzier language, too, though my taste runs also to
> the unadorned style.  And--though I wouldn't agree--I can see feeling that
> its somewhat abrupt ending is "unearned," in workshop parlance.
>
> What surprised me a bit after I posted it was that a number of people were
> roused to more active disdain.  After all, we poetry readers swim in
> mediocrity daily, and that's not news.  But to find a poem "godawful," and
> to be stirred to say so --that indicates an aesthetic fault line or two,
> perhaps.  And the criticism of the poem seemed to come from numerous
> directions, which also got my attention.
>
> More to the point, then, the dispute over its merits gets at an issue that
> perennially fascinates me:  the mysteries of taste.  And I suspect that to
> the extent that we get specific about our likes and dislikes, we expose
> larger issues that, for poets, are continually in need of re-examination.
>
> For one obvious instance, Stone's poem is a classic case of the lyric
built
> around an epiphany.  Even though no one said it in so many words, I'm
> guessing that some dislike the mode it's written in.  And that others are
so
> tired of this kind of lyric that the bar is raised fairly high:  it better
> be a really *good* epiphany to win them over.  (Honestly, too, I've
noticed
> that lyrics using natural imagery often receive especially harsh
treatment.
> No one complained about the heron per se, so maybe I'm projecting in this
> case.)
>
> Otherwise, comments on the poem, to the extent that they've pointed to
> particulars, seem to focus on the poem's dramatic plausibility, clarity,
and
> effectiveness.  In some respects we're all over the map on what the poem
> actually describes.  For what it's worth, here's my take on this poem's
> little drama.
>
> The poem describes an epiphanic moment for the speaker.  The moment is,
like
> most epiphanies, partly mysterious and certainly a bit beyond easy
> description.  It apparently occurs in the midst of a mother-daughter talk
> full of rancor and misunderstanding, but the poem is not about such
things,
> which is why I think the relationship isn't developed.
>
> Rather, the poem's about the brief moment of respite, when mother and
> daughter simply shut up and look at the heron in the field and sit with
> their coffee and donuts.  Often such moments occur in arguments, and
they're
> always opportunities, even if not acted on.  Then the argument resumes.
But
> for that moment, the mother has her little epiphany about (well, here's
> where language fails) self-absorption and the distance between people, for
> which the heron serves as a symbolic projection.
>
> The poem ultimately seems to be about loneliness and isolation, even among
> those most intimate.  The speaker never knows that the daughter is
thinking,
> only what she says; and that --that ignorance and distance-- seems part of
> the point.  It's a very sad poem.
>
> I think my reading is reinforced by the comment Stone offers in the *Best
> American Poetry* volume that includes this poem:
>
> "I think I write most often from a parent's point of view, and yet I
seldom
> write explicitly about my children.  Perhaps because of our shared grief,
we
> respect our distances, our emotional boundaries; our rights to feel
unique.
> In this poem I am resigned to this isolation.  Even with our children, we
> are only among them for a moment.  I am silent with my own terrible
> knowledge of what time does to us all; our lives, which are necessarily
> enclosed, which necessarily exclude the vast amorphous other, as the heron
> seems to behave as if the field belongs to the heron.  I am speaking of a
> moment of illumination, an awareness beyond the self, that came as a gift;
a
> moment, which is all I can know of eternity."
>
> I don't think, then, that the poem claims that the daughter has any
> epiphany.  To my mind, that's part of the point, the speaker's sense of
> great isolation.  The wall between them "opens to the universe," i.e. the
> potential for communication & understanding exists, but only for the
> briefest moment, and it is not acted on. So I do think that the moment
> described is a moment of failed opportunity--this mother and daughter
> *could* have turned their gazes outward together, talked about the world
> outside the car (heron, etc.), but they did not.  The mother is left alone
> with her sense of illumination, which is also, sadly, a missed chance.
It's
> a gift, but hardly a feel-good moment.
>
> Now, the flawed assumptions, misreadings or over-readings I've made
> according to my own taste will perhaps be pointed out to me. . . .
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
> A Moment
>
> Across the highway a heron stands
> in the flooded field. It stands
> as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
> as if the field belongs to herons.
> The air is clear and quiet.
> Snow melts on this second fair day.
> Mother and daughter,
> we sit in the parking lot
> with doughnuts and coffee.
> We are silent.
> For a moment the wall between us
> opens to the universe;
> then closes.
> And you go on saying
> you do not want to repeat my life.
>
> --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
> *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 23 15:32:10 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:32:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment
In-Reply-To: <200211232019.gANKJlPc065163@mx12.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEAFFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

    
{    >As for me, David, I don't believe that anything they might
{    >have said to each other would have improved upon that 
{    >moment of shared silence, just looking.
{    >
{    >Hal      
{    
{    As for me, Hal, I've always liked the way Williams puts it in "Asphodel"--
{    
{         Silence can be complex, too,
{                but you do not get far
{                           with silence.
{        
{         Begin again.

But Williams probably knew that there's
really only nowhere to go.

Hal         "I have the feeling that we are getting
               nowhere, and that is a pleasure."       
                                --John Cage

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From marcus at designerglass.com  Sat Nov 23 16:42:04 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:42:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
In-Reply-To: <008501c2931f$962b8920$826ffea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3DDFAFDC.31899.1915B16@localhost>

> > {    >It is impossible to defend crude name-calling and >insensitivity.
> >
> 
> > {    Actually, it is impossible sanely to defend a statement as stupid as
> the
> > {    above.  I agreed with everything else Rothstein had to say.
> > {    --Bob G.

> > E.R. may have meant it was impossible for *him* to defend
> > "crude name-calling and insensitivity." The NYT's editors
> > ain't what they used to be.
> > Hal 

> Okay.  But I bet he could defend it if he really hadda.  Or if he really
> thought about the fact that the propensity of human beings to call each
> other crude names and be "insensitive" has lasted for too long not to have
> some biological value.  I myself think it is the first step toward
> tolerance: 1. nameless evil, 2. named evil, 3. named joke, 4. named
> stranger, 5. named acquaintance, 6. named friend.
> --Bob G.

This seems to be another senseless semantical argument from Mr 
Grumman:  the meaning of the "it is impossible to defend" locution is 
pretty clearly hyperbolic, and was not intended to be taken as 
literally as it has been taken here.  Possibly the implication of "it 
is impossible to defend" is meant to include "...in a civil 
discussion" and not be quite the absolute Mr Grumman takes it for. 
After all, propaganda demonizing an enemy during wartime (which is, 
after all, only name-calling and insensitivity) is widely held to be 
not only defensible but necessary.

Grumman's seems to be a trivial objection to Rothstein's point.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Sat Nov 23 16:42:04 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:42:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
In-Reply-To: <009b01c2932d$94165c60$826ffea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3DDFAFDC.15978.19159C7@localhost>

Bob Grumman:
> I think the over-reaction to the perceived poorness of the poem was due to
> its author's just having been given a Big Prize.  But also because it does
> the same old things that the still dominant mainstream school does....<

But the same old things are what poetry has always done -- and still 
does: present the unfamiliar in terms of the familiar.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 23 17:19:55 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 15:19:55 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
References: <200211231939.gANJdKYw049281@mx11.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3DDFFF0A.56D97E5F@earthlink.net>

Before there was the word "field," and before there was the word
"heron," a mother and a daughter were standing there without names for
themselves, watching.  Silent.  There was that moment.  I wish Stone
would have set it up that way somehow, but she didn't.  And that is why 
"For a moment the wall between us/opens to the universe" has no cache'.

Nice explication, David, but the poem is what it is.

- Jim

> A Moment
>
> Across the highway a heron stands
> in the flooded field. It stands
> as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
> as if the field belongs to herons.
> The air is clear and quiet.
> Snow melts on this second fair day.
> Mother and daughter,
> we sit in the parking lot
> with doughnuts and coffee.
> We are silent.
> For a moment the wall between us
> opens to the universe;
> then closes.
> And you go on saying
> you do not want to repeat my life.
>
> --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.

David Graham wrote:
> 
> Some further thoughts on Ruth Stone's "A Moment."  I should say that even I,
> who like the poem a good deal more than others do, don't think it's "Easter
> 1916."  For me it's a solid, moving little lyric, rather akin to Rexroth's
> translations from the classical Chinese poets--spare, clear, and unafraid of
> declarative statement.
> 
> I can easily see finding it rather ho-hum, especially in its muted diction,
> unadorned imagery, and simple syntax.  Tad Richards's comments on the
> language and Jim Finnegan's complaint about "wan" imagery strike me as
> entirely fair.  I like jazzier language, too, though my taste runs also to
> the unadorned style.  And--though I wouldn't agree--I can see feeling that
> its somewhat abrupt ending is "unearned," in workshop parlance.
> 
> What surprised me a bit after I posted it was that a number of people were
> roused to more active disdain.  After all, we poetry readers swim in
> mediocrity daily, and that's not news.  But to find a poem "godawful," and
> to be stirred to say so --that indicates an aesthetic fault line or two,
> perhaps.  And the criticism of the poem seemed to come from numerous
> directions, which also got my attention.
> 
> More to the point, then, the dispute over its merits gets at an issue that
> perennially fascinates me:  the mysteries of taste.  And I suspect that to
> the extent that we get specific about our likes and dislikes, we expose
> larger issues that, for poets, are continually in need of re-examination.
> 
> For one obvious instance, Stone's poem is a classic case of the lyric built
> around an epiphany.  Even though no one said it in so many words, I'm
> guessing that some dislike the mode it's written in.  And that others are so
> tired of this kind of lyric that the bar is raised fairly high:  it better
> be a really *good* epiphany to win them over.  (Honestly, too, I've noticed
> that lyrics using natural imagery often receive especially harsh treatment.
> No one complained about the heron per se, so maybe I'm projecting in this
> case.)
> 
> Otherwise, comments on the poem, to the extent that they've pointed to
> particulars, seem to focus on the poem's dramatic plausibility, clarity, and
> effectiveness.  In some respects we're all over the map on what the poem
> actually describes.  For what it's worth, here's my take on this poem's
> little drama.
> 
> The poem describes an epiphanic moment for the speaker.  The moment is, like
> most epiphanies, partly mysterious and certainly a bit beyond easy
> description.  It apparently occurs in the midst of a mother-daughter talk
> full of rancor and misunderstanding, but the poem is not about such things,
> which is why I think the relationship isn't developed.
> 
> Rather, the poem's about the brief moment of respite, when mother and
> daughter simply shut up and look at the heron in the field and sit with
> their coffee and donuts.  Often such moments occur in arguments, and they're
> always opportunities, even if not acted on.  Then the argument resumes.  But
> for that moment, the mother has her little epiphany about (well, here's
> where language fails) self-absorption and the distance between people, for
> which the heron serves as a symbolic projection.
> 
> The poem ultimately seems to be about loneliness and isolation, even among
> those most intimate.  The speaker never knows that the daughter is thinking,
> only what she says; and that --that ignorance and distance-- seems part of
> the point.  It's a very sad poem.
> 
> I think my reading is reinforced by the comment Stone offers in the *Best
> American Poetry* volume that includes this poem:
> 
> "I think I write most often from a parent's point of view, and yet I seldom
> write explicitly about my children.  Perhaps because of our shared grief, we
> respect our distances, our emotional boundaries; our rights to feel unique.
> In this poem I am resigned to this isolation.  Even with our children, we
> are only among them for a moment.  I am silent with my own terrible
> knowledge of what time does to us all; our lives, which are necessarily
> enclosed, which necessarily exclude the vast amorphous other, as the heron
> seems to behave as if the field belongs to the heron.  I am speaking of a
> moment of illumination, an awareness beyond the self, that came as a gift; a
> moment, which is all I can know of eternity."
> 
> I don't think, then, that the poem claims that the daughter has any
> epiphany.  To my mind, that's part of the point, the speaker's sense of
> great isolation.  The wall between them "opens to the universe," i.e. the
> potential for communication & understanding exists, but only for the
> briefest moment, and it is not acted on. So I do think that the moment
> described is a moment of failed opportunity--this mother and daughter
> *could* have turned their gazes outward together, talked about the world
> outside the car (heron, etc.), but they did not.  The mother is left alone
> with her sense of illumination, which is also, sadly, a missed chance.  It's
> a gift, but hardly a feel-good moment.
> 
> Now, the flawed assumptions, misreadings or over-readings I've made
> according to my own taste will perhaps be pointed out to me. . . .
> 
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
> A Moment
> 
> Across the highway a heron stands
> in the flooded field. It stands
> as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
> as if the field belongs to herons.
> The air is clear and quiet.
> Snow melts on this second fair day.
> Mother and daughter,
> we sit in the parking lot
> with doughnuts and coffee.
> We are silent.
> For a moment the wall between us
> opens to the universe;
> then closes.
> And you go on saying
> you do not want to repeat my life.
> 
> --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
> *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Sat Nov 23 19:26:28 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:26:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
In-Reply-To: <009b01c2932d$94165c60$826ffea9@j1c1k6>
References: <200211231939.gANJdKYw049281@mx11.mx.voyager.net>
 <009b01c2932d$94165c60$826ffea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <a05100302ba05cc99b0a5@[165.190.124.251]>

I'm not sure what this indicates about my poetics, but I guess I 
would have liked the poem without the figurative wall, which kind of 
steps in and sweets everything up into a single meaning, like the 
motto of an emblem (which then makes it possible to replace the heron 
with some other objective correlative capable of momentarily removing 
the wall).
ellen s.

>I think the opened wall was experienced by both mother and daughter--pretty
>moments in Nature DO move people that way sufficiently for the speaker to
>assume the daughter shared her sense of being in a larger universe than
>their discussion
>  was.  I agree with whoever it was (more than one, I think) who said the
>heron was not painted epiphany-large, so its opening the wall was a little
>forced, or too taken for granted.
>
>The daughter's remark to the mother seemed completely believable to me.  I
>thought the poem moderately okay.  So, for once, I'm more with David Graham
>than not.
>
>I think the over-reaction to the perceived poorness of the poem was due to
>its author's just having been given a Big Prize.  But also because it does
>the same old things that the still dominant mainstream school does.  And,
>David, someone did call the heron too standard a symbol, or something like
>that.  Some good criticisms, too, were made of the poem for not doing as
>well as it might the kind of things Iowa-school poems do.
>
>
>David Graham wrote:
>
>>  Some further thoughts on Ruth Stone's "A Moment."  I should say that even
>I,
>>  who like the poem a good deal more than others do, don't think it's
>"Easter
>>  1916."  For me it's a solid, moving little lyric, rather akin to Rexroth's
>>  translations from the classical Chinese poets--spare, clear, and unafraid
>of
>>  declarative statement.
>>
>>  I can easily see finding it rather ho-hum, especially in its muted
>diction,
>>  unadorned imagery, and simple syntax.  Tad Richards's comments on the
>>  language and Jim Finnegan's complaint about "wan" imagery strike me as
>>  entirely fair.  I like jazzier language, too, though my taste runs also to
>>  the unadorned style.  And--though I wouldn't agree--I can see feeling that
>>  its somewhat abrupt ending is "unearned," in workshop parlance.
>>
>>  What surprised me a bit after I posted it was that a number of people were
>>  roused to more active disdain.  After all, we poetry readers swim in
>>  mediocrity daily, and that's not news.  But to find a poem "godawful," and
>>  to be stirred to say so --that indicates an aesthetic fault line or two,
>>  perhaps.  And the criticism of the poem seemed to come from numerous
>>  directions, which also got my attention.
>>
>>  More to the point, then, the dispute over its merits gets at an issue that
>>  perennially fascinates me:  the mysteries of taste.  And I suspect that to
>>  the extent that we get specific about our likes and dislikes, we expose
>>  larger issues that, for poets, are continually in need of re-examination.
>>
>>  For one obvious instance, Stone's poem is a classic case of the lyric
>built
>>  around an epiphany.  Even though no one said it in so many words, I'm
>>  guessing that some dislike the mode it's written in.  And that others are
>so
>>  tired of this kind of lyric that the bar is raised fairly high:  it better
>>  be a really *good* epiphany to win them over.  (Honestly, too, I've
>noticed
>>  that lyrics using natural imagery often receive especially harsh
>treatment.
>>  No one complained about the heron per se, so maybe I'm projecting in this
>>  case.)
>>
>>  Otherwise, comments on the poem, to the extent that they've pointed to
>>  particulars, seem to focus on the poem's dramatic plausibility, clarity,
>and
>>  effectiveness.  In some respects we're all over the map on what the poem
>>  actually describes.  For what it's worth, here's my take on this poem's
>>  little drama.
>>
>>  The poem describes an epiphanic moment for the speaker.  The moment is,
>like
>>  most epiphanies, partly mysterious and certainly a bit beyond easy
>>  description.  It apparently occurs in the midst of a mother-daughter talk
>  > full of rancor and misunderstanding, but the poem is not about such
>things,
>>  which is why I think the relationship isn't developed.
>>
>>  Rather, the poem's about the brief moment of respite, when mother and
>>  daughter simply shut up and look at the heron in the field and sit with
>>  their coffee and donuts.  Often such moments occur in arguments, and
>they're
>>  always opportunities, even if not acted on.  Then the argument resumes.
>But
>>  for that moment, the mother has her little epiphany about (well, here's
>>  where language fails) self-absorption and the distance between people, for
>>  which the heron serves as a symbolic projection.
>>
>>  The poem ultimately seems to be about loneliness and isolation, even among
>>  those most intimate.  The speaker never knows that the daughter is
>thinking,
>>  only what she says; and that --that ignorance and distance-- seems part of
>>  the point.  It's a very sad poem.
>>
>>  I think my reading is reinforced by the comment Stone offers in the *Best
>>  American Poetry* volume that includes this poem:
>>
>>  "I think I write most often from a parent's point of view, and yet I
>seldom
>>  write explicitly about my children.  Perhaps because of our shared grief,
>we
>>  respect our distances, our emotional boundaries; our rights to feel
>unique.
>>  In this poem I am resigned to this isolation.  Even with our children, we
>>  are only among them for a moment.  I am silent with my own terrible
>>  knowledge of what time does to us all; our lives, which are necessarily
>>  enclosed, which necessarily exclude the vast amorphous other, as the heron
>>  seems to behave as if the field belongs to the heron.  I am speaking of a
>>  moment of illumination, an awareness beyond the self, that came as a gift;
>a
>>  moment, which is all I can know of eternity."
>>
>>  I don't think, then, that the poem claims that the daughter has any
>>  epiphany.  To my mind, that's part of the point, the speaker's sense of
>>  great isolation.  The wall between them "opens to the universe," i.e. the
>>  potential for communication & understanding exists, but only for the
>>  briefest moment, and it is not acted on. So I do think that the moment
>>  described is a moment of failed opportunity--this mother and daughter
>>  *could* have turned their gazes outward together, talked about the world
>>  outside the car (heron, etc.), but they did not.  The mother is left alone
>>  with her sense of illumination, which is also, sadly, a missed chance.
>It's
>>  a gift, but hardly a feel-good moment.
>>
>>  Now, the flawed assumptions, misreadings or over-readings I've made
>>  according to my own taste will perhaps be pointed out to me. . . .
>>
>>  ========================================
>>  David Graham
>>  Professor of English, Ripon College
>>  grahamd at ripon.edu
>>     Home Page:
>>  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>>     Poetry Library:
>>  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>>
>>  "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
>>  undergraduate education."
>>     Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
>>  =======================================
>>  A Moment
>>
>>  Across the highway a heron stands
>>  in the flooded field. It stands
>>  as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
>>  as if the field belongs to herons.
>>  The air is clear and quiet.
>>  Snow melts on this second fair day.
>>  Mother and daughter,
>>  we sit in the parking lot
>>  with doughnuts and coffee.
>>  We are silent.
>>  For a moment the wall between us
>>  opens to the universe;
>>  then closes.
>>  And you go on saying
>>  you do not want to repeat my life.
>>
>>  --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
>>  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 


From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Sat Nov 23 19:28:26 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:28:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment
In-Reply-To: <200211232019.gANKJlPc065163@mx12.mx.voyager.net>
References: <200211232019.gANKJlPc065163@mx12.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <a05100303ba05cd5ade2b@[165.190.124.251]>

or the way Pink Floyd puts it:  all in all
					it's just a-
				nother figur-
			ative wall.
(wishing I were comfortably numb),
ellen s.



>  >As for me, David, I don't believe that anything they might
>>have said to each other would have improved upon that
>>moment of shared silence, just looking.
>>
>>Hal     
>
>As for me, Hal, I've always liked the way Williams puts it in "Asphodel"--
>
>      Silence can be complex, too,
>             but you do not get far
>                        with silence.
>    
>      Begin again.
>
>
>========================================
>David Graham
>Professor of English, Ripon College
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
>"We're writing the book on quality: personal,
>undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
>=======================================
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 


From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Sat Nov 23 19:30:57 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:30:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
In-Reply-To: <3DDFAFDC.15978.19159C7@localhost>
References: <3DDFAFDC.15978.19159C7@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05100304ba05cdec0058@[165.190.124.251]>

Poetry also defamiliarizes the familiar so that it can be seen in a 
different way.
ellen s.



>Bob Grumman:
>>  I think the over-reaction to the perceived poorness of the poem was due to
>>  its author's just having been given a Big Prize.  But also because it does
>>  the same old things that the still dominant mainstream school does....<
>
>But the same old things are what poetry has always done -- and still
>does: present the unfamiliar in terms of the familiar.
>
>
>Marcus Bales
>
>marcus at designerglass.com
>http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Sat Nov 23 17:00:00 2002
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS  RICHARDS)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:00:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
References: <200211231939.gANJdKYw049281@mx11.mx.voyager.net> <009b01c2932d$94165c60$826ffea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <009001c29347$87467d20$3d3affd1@ibm25310>

The open-wall mother-daughter experience is one of my chief problems with
the poem. A heron standing on one leg isn't enough, by itself, to allow the
assumption that her daughter is thinking what she's thinking, especially
since what she's thinking --that it's important for mothers and daughters to
share the same dreams -- is far more important to mothers than to daughters.
And believability isn't enough. If the daughter had said, "I want to have my
tongue pierced," or "There's a guy in my class whose parents voted for Tom
DeLay," that would also have been believable.

I think it's unjust to turn on a poet just because she wins a major award,
and I don't think I was doing that. I tend to resent the resentment of
success. But because the poet had just won a major award, it did make me
look more closely at the poem, and the closer I looked, the more it bugged
me. Which is not a good thing.


Tad Richards
http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
art - poetry - links
www.opus40.org
Harvey Fite's monumental earth sculpture
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)


> I think the opened wall was experienced by both mother and
daughter--pretty
> moments in Nature DO move people that way sufficiently for the speaker to
> assume the daughter shared her sense of being in a larger universe than
> their discussion
>  was.  I agree with whoever it was (more than one, I think) who said the
> heron was not painted epiphany-large, so its opening the wall was a little
> forced, or too taken for granted.
>
> The daughter's remark to the mother seemed completely believable to me.  I
> thought the poem moderately okay.  So, for once, I'm more with David
Graham
> than not.
>
> I think the over-reaction to the perceived poorness of the poem was due to
> its author's just having been given a Big Prize.  But also because it does
> the same old things that the still dominant mainstream school does.  And,
> David, someone did call the heron too standard a symbol, or something like
> that.  Some good criticisms, too, were made of the poem for not doing as
> well as it might the kind of things Iowa-school poems do.
>
>
> David Graham wrote:
>
> > Some further thoughts on Ruth Stone's "A Moment."  I should say that
even
> I,
> > who like the poem a good deal more than others do, don't think it's
> "Easter
> > 1916."  For me it's a solid, moving little lyric, rather akin to
Rexroth's
> > translations from the classical Chinese poets--spare, clear, and
unafraid
> of
> > declarative statement.
> >
> > I can easily see finding it rather ho-hum, especially in its muted
> diction,
> > unadorned imagery, and simple syntax.  Tad Richards's comments on the
> > language and Jim Finnegan's complaint about "wan" imagery strike me as
> > entirely fair.  I like jazzier language, too, though my taste runs also
to
> > the unadorned style.  And--though I wouldn't agree--I can see feeling
that
> > its somewhat abrupt ending is "unearned," in workshop parlance.
> >
> > What surprised me a bit after I posted it was that a number of people
were
> > roused to more active disdain.  After all, we poetry readers swim in
> > mediocrity daily, and that's not news.  But to find a poem "godawful,"
and
> > to be stirred to say so --that indicates an aesthetic fault line or two,
> > perhaps.  And the criticism of the poem seemed to come from numerous
> > directions, which also got my attention.
> >
> > More to the point, then, the dispute over its merits gets at an issue
that
> > perennially fascinates me:  the mysteries of taste.  And I suspect that
to
> > the extent that we get specific about our likes and dislikes, we expose
> > larger issues that, for poets, are continually in need of
re-examination.
> >
> > For one obvious instance, Stone's poem is a classic case of the lyric
> built
> > around an epiphany.  Even though no one said it in so many words, I'm
> > guessing that some dislike the mode it's written in.  And that others
are
> so
> > tired of this kind of lyric that the bar is raised fairly high:  it
better
> > be a really *good* epiphany to win them over.  (Honestly, too, I've
> noticed
> > that lyrics using natural imagery often receive especially harsh
> treatment.
> > No one complained about the heron per se, so maybe I'm projecting in
this
> > case.)
> >
> > Otherwise, comments on the poem, to the extent that they've pointed to
> > particulars, seem to focus on the poem's dramatic plausibility, clarity,
> and
> > effectiveness.  In some respects we're all over the map on what the poem
> > actually describes.  For what it's worth, here's my take on this poem's
> > little drama.
> >
> > The poem describes an epiphanic moment for the speaker.  The moment is,
> like
> > most epiphanies, partly mysterious and certainly a bit beyond easy
> > description.  It apparently occurs in the midst of a mother-daughter
talk
> > full of rancor and misunderstanding, but the poem is not about such
> things,
> > which is why I think the relationship isn't developed.
> >
> > Rather, the poem's about the brief moment of respite, when mother and
> > daughter simply shut up and look at the heron in the field and sit with
> > their coffee and donuts.  Often such moments occur in arguments, and
> they're
> > always opportunities, even if not acted on.  Then the argument resumes.
> But
> > for that moment, the mother has her little epiphany about (well, here's
> > where language fails) self-absorption and the distance between people,
for
> > which the heron serves as a symbolic projection.
> >
> > The poem ultimately seems to be about loneliness and isolation, even
among
> > those most intimate.  The speaker never knows that the daughter is
> thinking,
> > only what she says; and that --that ignorance and distance-- seems part
of
> > the point.  It's a very sad poem.
> >
> > I think my reading is reinforced by the comment Stone offers in the
*Best
> > American Poetry* volume that includes this poem:
> >
> > "I think I write most often from a parent's point of view, and yet I
> seldom
> > write explicitly about my children.  Perhaps because of our shared
grief,
> we
> > respect our distances, our emotional boundaries; our rights to feel
> unique.
> > In this poem I am resigned to this isolation.  Even with our children,
we
> > are only among them for a moment.  I am silent with my own terrible
> > knowledge of what time does to us all; our lives, which are necessarily
> > enclosed, which necessarily exclude the vast amorphous other, as the
heron
> > seems to behave as if the field belongs to the heron.  I am speaking of
a
> > moment of illumination, an awareness beyond the self, that came as a
gift;
> a
> > moment, which is all I can know of eternity."
> >
> > I don't think, then, that the poem claims that the daughter has any
> > epiphany.  To my mind, that's part of the point, the speaker's sense of
> > great isolation.  The wall between them "opens to the universe," i.e.
the
> > potential for communication & understanding exists, but only for the
> > briefest moment, and it is not acted on. So I do think that the moment
> > described is a moment of failed opportunity--this mother and daughter
> > *could* have turned their gazes outward together, talked about the world
> > outside the car (heron, etc.), but they did not.  The mother is left
alone
> > with her sense of illumination, which is also, sadly, a missed chance.
> It's
> > a gift, but hardly a feel-good moment.
> >
> > Now, the flawed assumptions, misreadings or over-readings I've made
> > according to my own taste will perhaps be pointed out to me. . . .
> >
> > ========================================
> > David Graham
> > Professor of English, Ripon College
> > grahamd at ripon.edu
> >    Home Page:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> >    Poetry Library:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> >
> > "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> > undergraduate education."
> >    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> > =======================================
> > A Moment
> >
> > Across the highway a heron stands
> > in the flooded field. It stands
> > as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
> > as if the field belongs to herons.
> > The air is clear and quiet.
> > Snow melts on this second fair day.
> > Mother and daughter,
> > we sit in the parking lot
> > with doughnuts and coffee.
> > We are silent.
> > For a moment the wall between us
> > opens to the universe;
> > then closes.
> > And you go on saying
> > you do not want to repeat my life.
> >
> > --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
> > *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Sat Nov 23 20:36:09 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:36:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
In-Reply-To: <a05100302ba05cc99b0a5@[165.190.124.251]>
References: <200211231939.gANJdKYw049281@mx11.mx.voyager.net>
 <009b01c2932d$94165c60$826ffea9@j1c1k6>
 <a05100302ba05cc99b0a5@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <a05100302ba05dd018c24@[165.190.124.251]>

Just to follow-up...what I think I mean is that it doesn't any longer 
need to be a heron, that particular heron...or, to quote Moore 
quoting Yeats(?), the poem is no longer an "imaginary garden with a 
real toad in it."  What is more real now is the figurative wall and 
the conceptual import of that wall.
ellen s.


>I'm not sure what this indicates about my poetics, but I guess I 
>would have liked the poem without the figurative wall, which kind of 
>steps in and sweets everything up into a single meaning, like the 
>motto of an emblem (which then makes it possible to replace the 
>heron with some other objective correlative capable of momentarily 
>removing the wall).
>ellen s.
>
>>I think the opened wall was experienced by both mother and daughter--pretty
>>moments in Nature DO move people that way sufficiently for the speaker to
>>assume the daughter shared her sense of being in a larger universe than
>>their discussion
>>  was.  I agree with whoever it was (more than one, I think) who said the
>>heron was not painted epiphany-large, so its opening the wall was a little
>>forced, or too taken for granted.
>>
>>The daughter's remark to the mother seemed completely believable to me.  I
>>thought the poem moderately okay.  So, for once, I'm more with David Graham
>>than not.
>>
>>I think the over-reaction to the perceived poorness of the poem was due to
>>its author's just having been given a Big Prize.  But also because it does
>>the same old things that the still dominant mainstream school does.  And,
>>David, someone did call the heron too standard a symbol, or something like
>>that.  Some good criticisms, too, were made of the poem for not doing as
>>well as it might the kind of things Iowa-school poems do.
>>
>>
>>David Graham wrote:
>>
>>>  Some further thoughts on Ruth Stone's "A Moment."  I should say that even
>>I,
>>>  who like the poem a good deal more than others do, don't think it's
>>"Easter
>>>  1916."  For me it's a solid, moving little lyric, rather akin to Rexroth's
>>>  translations from the classical Chinese poets--spare, clear, and unafraid
>>of
>>>  declarative statement.
>>>
>>>  I can easily see finding it rather ho-hum, especially in its muted
>>diction,
>>>  unadorned imagery, and simple syntax.  Tad Richards's comments on the
>>>  language and Jim Finnegan's complaint about "wan" imagery strike me as
>>>  entirely fair.  I like jazzier language, too, though my taste runs also to
>>>  the unadorned style.  And--though I wouldn't agree--I can see feeling that
>>>  its somewhat abrupt ending is "unearned," in workshop parlance.
>>>
>>>  What surprised me a bit after I posted it was that a number of people were
>>>  roused to more active disdain.  After all, we poetry readers swim in
>>>  mediocrity daily, and that's not news.  But to find a poem "godawful," and
>>>  to be stirred to say so --that indicates an aesthetic fault line or two,
>>>  perhaps.  And the criticism of the poem seemed to come from numerous
>>>  directions, which also got my attention.
>>>
>>>  More to the point, then, the dispute over its merits gets at an issue that
>>>  perennially fascinates me:  the mysteries of taste.  And I suspect that to
>>>  the extent that we get specific about our likes and dislikes, we expose
>>>  larger issues that, for poets, are continually in need of re-examination.
>>>
>>>  For one obvious instance, Stone's poem is a classic case of the lyric
>>built
>>>  around an epiphany.  Even though no one said it in so many words, I'm
>>>  guessing that some dislike the mode it's written in.  And that others are
>>so
>>>  tired of this kind of lyric that the bar is raised fairly high:  it better
>>>  be a really *good* epiphany to win them over.  (Honestly, too, I've
>>noticed
>>>  that lyrics using natural imagery often receive especially harsh
>>treatment.
>>>  No one complained about the heron per se, so maybe I'm projecting in this
>>>  case.)
>>>
>>>  Otherwise, comments on the poem, to the extent that they've pointed to
>>>  particulars, seem to focus on the poem's dramatic plausibility, clarity,
>>and
>>>  effectiveness.  In some respects we're all over the map on what the poem
>>>  actually describes.  For what it's worth, here's my take on this poem's
>>>  little drama.
>>>
>>>  The poem describes an epiphanic moment for the speaker.  The moment is,
>>like
>>>  most epiphanies, partly mysterious and certainly a bit beyond easy
>>>  description.  It apparently occurs in the midst of a mother-daughter talk
>>  > full of rancor and misunderstanding, but the poem is not about such
>>things,
>>>  which is why I think the relationship isn't developed.
>>>
>>>  Rather, the poem's about the brief moment of respite, when mother and
>>>  daughter simply shut up and look at the heron in the field and sit with
>>>  their coffee and donuts.  Often such moments occur in arguments, and
>>they're
>>>  always opportunities, even if not acted on.  Then the argument resumes.
>>But
>>>  for that moment, the mother has her little epiphany about (well, here's
>>>  where language fails) self-absorption and the distance between people, for
>>>  which the heron serves as a symbolic projection.
>>>
>>>  The poem ultimately seems to be about loneliness and isolation, even among
>>>  those most intimate.  The speaker never knows that the daughter is
>>thinking,
>>>  only what she says; and that --that ignorance and distance-- seems part of
>>>  the point.  It's a very sad poem.
>>>
>>>  I think my reading is reinforced by the comment Stone offers in the *Best
>>>  American Poetry* volume that includes this poem:
>>>
>>>  "I think I write most often from a parent's point of view, and yet I
>>seldom
>>>  write explicitly about my children.  Perhaps because of our shared grief,
>>we
>>>  respect our distances, our emotional boundaries; our rights to feel
>>unique.
>>>  In this poem I am resigned to this isolation.  Even with our children, we
>>>  are only among them for a moment.  I am silent with my own terrible
>>>  knowledge of what time does to us all; our lives, which are necessarily
>>>  enclosed, which necessarily exclude the vast amorphous other, as the heron
>>>  seems to behave as if the field belongs to the heron.  I am speaking of a
>>>  moment of illumination, an awareness beyond the self, that came as a gift;
>>a
>>>  moment, which is all I can know of eternity."
>>>
>>>  I don't think, then, that the poem claims that the daughter has any
>>>  epiphany.  To my mind, that's part of the point, the speaker's sense of
>>>  great isolation.  The wall between them "opens to the universe," i.e. the
>>>  potential for communication & understanding exists, but only for the
>>>  briefest moment, and it is not acted on. So I do think that the moment
>>>  described is a moment of failed opportunity--this mother and daughter
>>>  *could* have turned their gazes outward together, talked about the world
>>>  outside the car (heron, etc.), but they did not.  The mother is left alone
>>>  with her sense of illumination, which is also, sadly, a missed chance.
>>It's
>>>  a gift, but hardly a feel-good moment.
>>>
>>>  Now, the flawed assumptions, misreadings or over-readings I've made
>>>  according to my own taste will perhaps be pointed out to me. . . .
>>>
>>>  ========================================
>>>  David Graham
>>>  Professor of English, Ripon College
>>>  grahamd at ripon.edu
>>>     Home Page:
>>>  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>>>     Poetry Library:
>>>  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>>>
>>>  "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
>>>  undergraduate education."
>>>     Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
>>>  =======================================
>>>  A Moment
>>>
>>>  Across the highway a heron stands
>>>  in the flooded field. It stands
>>>  as if lost in thought, on one leg, careless,
>>>  as if the field belongs to herons.
>>>  The air is clear and quiet.
>>>  Snow melts on this second fair day.
>>>  Mother and daughter,
>>>  we sit in the parking lot
>>>  with doughnuts and coffee.
>>>  We are silent.
>>>  For a moment the wall between us
>>>  opens to the universe;
>>>  then closes.
>>>  And you go on saying
>>>  you do not want to repeat my life.
>>>
>>>  --Ruth Stone.  *Ordinary Words*.  Paris Press, 1999.
>>>  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>--
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 23 18:53:56 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:53:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
In-Reply-To: <009001c29347$87467d20$3d3affd1@ibm25310>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEAJFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    the closer I looked, the more it bugged
{    me. Which is not a good thing.

That's what we call the Ashcroft syndrome, Tad--
the closer you look at him, the more he bugs you
(or has you bugged).

Hal         "I think pigs should be allowed to
               run free--just like politicians."
                              --Edna Buchanan
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Sat Nov 23 18:57:10 2002
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:57:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: email virus--not a hoax - missing step
Message-ID: <12c.1bef9e72.2b116fd6@aol.com>

All,

After you delet the virus as instructe, you MUST immediately shut down and 
restart your computer. Otherwise, it will just replicate.

Jeffrey Levine
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Nov 23 20:03:18 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:03:18 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
Message-ID: <44.29c64b87.2b117f56@cs.com>

It was a slight poem, but I liked it.  Every heron doesn't have to be 
Sylvie's white one.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 23 20:32:29 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:32:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
References: <3DDFAFDC.15978.19159C7@localhost> <a05100304ba05cdec0058@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <003101c29359$5a9ce7c0$8d8cfea9@j1c1k6>

> Poetry also defamiliarizes the familiar so that it can be seen in a
> different way.
> ellen s.

That, for me, is entirely what it does.  But I, of course, was talking about
the too-standard ways that Iowa-State poetry does this.

--Bob G.



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Nov 23 21:25:33 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 21:25:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
References: <200211231939.gANJdKYw049281@mx11.mx.voyager.net> <009b01c2932d$94165c60$826ffea9@j1c1k6> <009001c29347$87467d20$3d3affd1@ibm25310>
Message-ID: <007301c29360$c47a7b60$8d8cfea9@j1c1k6>

> The open-wall mother-daughter experience is one of my chief problems with
> the poem. A heron standing on one leg isn't enough, by itself, to allow
the
> assumption that her daughter is thinking what she's thinking, especially
> since what she's thinking --that it's important for mothers and daughters
to
> share the same dreams -- is far more important to mothers than to
daughters.

I didn't interpret it that way.  I thought the two were discussing something
the daughter planned to do or the like, with tension--and they noticed the
scene.  That kicked them off into an epiphany that seems to me natural and
almost inevitable--the way "look at that sunset!" or "look, a rainbow," or
"Aren't the stars bright tonight?!" etc. do.  Then they returned to the
everyday, and the daughter's banal statement of unsharing.  I don't think
the mother wanted the girl to share her dreams; she just didn't want her to
insult her life.  There is the additional irony of the daughter's actually
sharing the mother's life while both observed the heron.

I agree that believability isn't enough to make a poem good.  But
unbelievability, as this one has been accused of, is enough to wreck a poem.


> And believability isn't enough. If the daughter had said, "I want to have
my
> tongue pierced," or "There's a guy in my class whose parents voted for Tom
> DeLay," that would also have been believable.
>
> I think it's unjust to turn on a poet just because she wins a major award,

Agreed.  But it makes sense to turn on a poet one considers inferior for
that reason.  My never having won any prize may be why no one bothered to
knock my heron poem.

> and I don't think I was doing that. I tend to resent the resentment of
success.

I'm 98% sure of that.

--Bob G.

>But because the poet had just won a major award, it did make me
> look more closely at the poem, and the closer I looked, the more it bugged
> me. Which is not a good thing.

> Tad Richards






From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Sun Nov 24 00:34:51 2002
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS  RICHARDS)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:34:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
References: <200211231939.gANJdKYw049281@mx11.mx.voyager.net> <009b01c2932d$94165c60$826ffea9@j1c1k6> <009001c29347$87467d20$3d3affd1@ibm25310> <007301c29360$c47a7b60$8d8cfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <000201c293d5$b4353c20$583affd1@ibm25310>

Hey, I'll be glad to knock your heron poem.


Tad Richards
http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
art - poetry - links
www.opus40.org
Harvey Fite's monumental earth sculpture
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)


> > The open-wall mother-daughter experience is one of my chief problems
with
> > the poem. A heron standing on one leg isn't enough, by itself, to allow
> the
> > assumption that her daughter is thinking what she's thinking, especially
> > since what she's thinking --that it's important for mothers and
daughters
> to
> > share the same dreams -- is far more important to mothers than to
> daughters.
>
> I didn't interpret it that way.  I thought the two were discussing
something
> the daughter planned to do or the like, with tension--and they noticed the
> scene.  That kicked them off into an epiphany that seems to me natural and
> almost inevitable--the way "look at that sunset!" or "look, a rainbow," or
> "Aren't the stars bright tonight?!" etc. do.  Then they returned to the
> everyday, and the daughter's banal statement of unsharing.  I don't think
> the mother wanted the girl to share her dreams; she just didn't want her
to
> insult her life.  There is the additional irony of the daughter's actually
> sharing the mother's life while both observed the heron.
>
> I agree that believability isn't enough to make a poem good.  But
> unbelievability, as this one has been accused of, is enough to wreck a
poem.
>
>
> > And believability isn't enough. If the daughter had said, "I want to
have
> my
> > tongue pierced," or "There's a guy in my class whose parents voted for
Tom
> > DeLay," that would also have been believable.
> >
> > I think it's unjust to turn on a poet just because she wins a major
award,
>
> Agreed.  But it makes sense to turn on a poet one considers inferior for
> that reason.  My never having won any prize may be why no one bothered to
> knock my heron poem.
>
> > and I don't think I was doing that. I tend to resent the resentment of
> success.
>
> I'm 98% sure of that.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> >But because the poet had just won a major award, it did make me
> > look more closely at the poem, and the closer I looked, the more it
bugged
> > me. Which is not a good thing.
>
> > Tad Richards
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 24 11:27:15 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:27:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
References: <200211231939.gANJdKYw049281@mx11.mx.voyager.net> <009b01c2932d$94165c60$826ffea9@j1c1k6> <009001c29347$87467d20$3d3affd1@ibm25310> <007301c29360$c47a7b60$8d8cfea9@j1c1k6> <000201c293d5$b4353c20$583affd1@ibm25310>
Message-ID: <00f701c293d6$5a51f440$e13cfea9@j1c1k6>

> Hey, I'll be glad to knock your heron poem.
 
 
> Tad Richards

Go to it, Tad--it's somewhere in this or a related thread.

--Bob G.



From marcus at designerglass.com  Sun Nov 24 14:18:39 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:18:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
In-Reply-To: <a05100304ba05cdec0058@[165.190.124.251]>
References: <3DDFAFDC.15978.19159C7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3DE0DFBF.1417.4D4F2B@localhost>

> >Bob Grumman:
> >>  I think the over-reaction to the perceived poorness of the poem was due to
> >>  its author's just having been given a Big Prize.  But also because it does
> >>  the same old things that the still dominant mainstream school does....<

Marcus:
> >But the same old things are what poetry has always done -- and still
> >does: present the unfamiliar in terms of the familiar.

> ellen s.
> Poetry also defamiliarizes the familiar so that it can be seen in a 
> different way.<<

Perhaps here you're making a distinction without a difference, since 
by comparing the familiar to the unfamiliar one is of necessity to 
some extent "defamiliariz[ing] the familiar" by the nature of the 
comparison.  

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Sun Nov 24 14:33:33 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:33:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
In-Reply-To: <003101c29359$5a9ce7c0$8d8cfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3DE0E33D.19708.5AF3BC@localhost>

> > Poetry also defamiliarizes the familiar so that it can be seen in a
> > different way.
> > ellen s.
 
> That, for me, is entirely what it does.  But I, of course, was talking about
> the too-standard ways that Iowa-State poetry does this.
> --Bob G.

So let me see if I have this right:  you're complaining that Iowa-
State poetry has so standardized the defamiliarization of the 
familiar that it's not longer defamiliarization any more?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 24 15:26:14 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:26:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
References: <3DE0E33D.19708.5AF3BC@localhost>
Message-ID: <012a01c293f7$bd019d40$e13cfea9@j1c1k6>

> > > Poetry also defamiliarizes the familiar so that it can be seen in a
> > > different way.
> > > ellen s.
>
> > That, for me, is entirely what it does.  But I, of course, was talking
about
> > the too-standard ways that Iowa-State poetry does this.
> > --Bob G.
>
> So let me see if I have this right:  you're complaining that Iowa-
> State poetry has so standardized the defamiliarization of the
> familiar that it's not longer defamiliarization any more?
>
Wow, the ever-alert Marcus Bales has another accomplishment worth inscribing
on him tombstone: he has caught Bob Grumman
leaving out a word or two.   Yes, Marcus, I should have said:

> > That, for me, is entirely what it does.  But I, of course, was talking
about
> > the too-standard ways that Iowa-State poetry TRIES TO DO this.

> > --Bob G.





From marcus at designerglass.com  Sun Nov 24 15:49:39 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:49:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
In-Reply-To: <012a01c293f7$bd019d40$e13cfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3DE0F513.21783.A09F43@localhost>

> > > > Poetry also defamiliarizes the familiar so that it can be seen in a
> > > > different way.
> > > > ellen s.
> >
> > > That, for me, is entirely what it does.  But I, of course, was talking
> > > about
> > > the too-standard ways that Iowa-State poetry does this.
> > > --Bob G.

Marcus:
> > So let me see if I have this right:  you're complaining that Iowa-
> > State poetry has so standardized the defamiliarization of the
> > familiar that it's not longer defamiliarization any more?

Bob G:
> ... caught Bob Grumman
> leaving out a word or two.   Yes, Marcus, I should have said:
> > > That, for me, is entirely what it does.  But I, of course, was
> > > talking about
> > > the too-standard ways that Iowa-State poetry TRIES TO DO this.

But Bob -- that's not "leaving out a word or two" -- that's saying 
that the PURPOSE of the Iowa-State poetry is to so defamiliarize 
defamiliarization that it no longer works as a technique. 

Once again you seem to be either confused about what you're trying to 
say or just not saying what you mean to say.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 24 16:08:38 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 14:08:38 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Winter issue of The Salt River Review
Message-ID: <3DE13FD6.CF55D626@earthlink.net>

The Salt River Review is now accepting submissions of poetry, fiction,
and literary non-fiction for its Spring, 2003 issue.  Information and
guidelines are available at the address below.

The Winter, 2002-03 issue of The Salt River Review features:

Poetry by Derek Sheffield, Wendy Taylor Carlisle, Larry Goodell, Alison
Luterman, Tracy Singer, Robin Reagler, Joe Somoza, Frances Ruhlen
McConnel, Tobias Seamon, Roger Pfingston & Laura Jensen.
Fiction by Sybil Kollar, Gail Louise Siegel & Richard K. Weems.
And literary non-fiction by Antoinette Nora Claypoole.

The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes:  http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html
Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html


From grahamd at ripon.edu  Sun Nov 24 16:18:26 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 15:18:26 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002
Message-ID: <200211242117.gAOLHGGd057929@mx3.mx.voyager.net>

With just a month left in the year, it's about time for my annual call for
reading recommendations.  What were some of the best /most interesting/ most
welcome books of poetry published in 2002?  

Extra points if you do more than simply cite the author & title. . . .

Currently very high on my list is Gray Jacobik's *Brave Disguises*, from U
Pittsburgh.  A very lush book, quite wide-ranging in subjects, filled with
mindful description and vivid meditation.  

You can read a couple samples in the archives of Jim Cervantes's *Salt River
Review*:  

http://www.poetserv.org/SRR7/srr7_contents.html

========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Nov 24 16:57:24 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:57:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
References: <3DE0F513.21783.A09F43@localhost>
Message-ID: <013c01c29404$7908e000$e13cfea9@j1c1k6>

> Once again you seem to be either confused about what you're trying to
> say or just not saying what you mean to say.

Right, Marcus.  So why keep re-establishing this flaw of mine?  I'll
obviously never learn.

--Bob G.



From marcus at designerglass.com  Sun Nov 24 17:11:38 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:11:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stone's Moment (a long moment)
In-Reply-To: <013c01c29404$7908e000$e13cfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3DE1084A.1590.EBB2C7@localhost>

> > Once again you seem to be either confused about what you're trying to
> > say or just not saying what you mean to say.
 
> Right, Marcus.  So why keep re-establishing this flaw of mine?  I'll
> obviously never learn.
> --Bob G.

Why not take some time and make some effort to say what you mean -- 
or, failing that, to at least mean what you say?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Sun Nov 24 17:50:51 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:50:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Onion does it again
In-Reply-To: <200211242117.gAOLHGGd057929@mx3.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3DE1117B.24829.10F9B61@localhost>

Muslims in the US may be developing nuclear-family capabilities!

http://www.theonion.com/onion3843/nuclear_families.html


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Nov 24 23:05:44 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:05:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pomo discourse by others: Alan Sondheim, "A Generation . . ."
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEBNFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

A Generation which Circulates Around the Usual Limitations

So it goes--one and then another--this old conversation in the form of an
emulsion which possesses off-limits: (the soldier, barracks): here and there,
everything (supply and reorder numbers, pagination) swaying (search and
destroy, line-scan to the nth degree) back and forth (front lines to the rear,
trenches, emollients): insects (jerries attacking, yanks, ratatatat): thus a
catapault (omnia Gallium et. al.): category ("Major, I . . . "): it wants to ride
(jeep against night lit by tracer shells, mud, helmets, headlights off, shadows,
smoke, steam, indistinct): see-saw (Battle of the Bulge, Marne, Dieppe): the
some (some men, a tank, a Godforsaken land, hell of a village going up in
flames): some unease/disuse: some disease (at ease POWs, rations, noncoms,
USO): what absorbs oil (emollient, POWs, rations, noncoms, USO): what
absorbs oil (emollient, tank-tread, grumbling, swearing, insects, conversa-
tions ("Joe, I . . ."), supply and reorder numbers): what absorbs oil, what
absorbs oil so. What placates ("Father, I . . ."): one and another (Bible, bullet,
head thrown back, trickle of blood): what stains the ground (wounded over
there, what remains of a man, could have been anyone, could have been you
or me): oils (leaking, tank on its side like an insect, old conversation): oils
(supply and reorder numbers): oils (Marne): oils ("Joe," "Father"): oils
(remains): shift puns: interference *rings*.

--Alan Sondheim

fr. *Disorders of the Real*
[Barrytown, New York: Station Hill Press, 1988]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Mon Nov 25 02:04:29 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:04:29 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard Re-invites poet
References: <5b.31a84e8c.2b0e5efc@aol.com> <019b01c291d2$e96debd0$49864cca@JROSS2> <019b01c291ef$284de500$a0b5fea9@hamilton2hg13.btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <007b01c29452$07eb3780$68864cca@JROSS2>

Glad to hear this -- restores my faith ... and all that ...

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harvard Re-invites poet


> > Was he Catholic or Protestant?  Just by the way, hatred in speech is a
> > moment to moment occurrence in Northern Ireland.  Not everyone is
> interested
> > in peace.
> >
> > Zan
>
> By background and upbringing, Protestant (Unionist), by sympathy
Republican
> (rather than Catholic).  But he shifted to England in his late teens to go
> to university, and has been mostly based there ever since.
>
> But "hatred of speech ..."  doesn't characterise Tom's poems.  See
> especially _The Liberty Tree_.  He has a pretty complex take on The
> Troubles.
>
> Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Mon Nov 25 02:12:31 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:12:31 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem
References: <7185150.1037989599290.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>
Message-ID: <007c01c29452$09090390$68864cca@JROSS2>

Count me in, too.

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Snider" <mandolin at mac.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 2:26 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Stone poem


>
> On Friday, Nov 22, 2002, at 12:29PM, Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
wrote:
>
> >on 11/22/02 11:14 AM, cindymonroe at cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net wrote:
> >
> >> I have to react to the Ruth Stone piece. I think it's god-awful. There
is
> >> nothing of interest here in either technique or content. Even the last
line,
> >> which hints at something that might be interesting, seems totally
phony.
> >> What would the kid (real or imaginary) really say? Now, that might be a
good
> >> starting point for something. I know a bunch of you'all probably feel
> >> differently, but as for me--I can't stand to read one more of these
types of
> >> (well I really wouldn't call them) poems.
> >>
> >> Cindy M.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >I felt the same way as you, Cindy. You're not alone.
> >
> >Paul Lake
> >
>
> In fact, there's at last a crowd of us.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Mon Nov 25 02:48:35 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:48:35 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEAAFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <008501c2931f$962b8920$826ffea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <013f01c29457$16ca56a0$68864cca@JROSS2>

Yet more categories for us to ponder, Bob...

Zan


> Okay.  But I bet he could defend it if he really hadda.  Or if he really
> thought about the fact that the propensity of human beings to call each
> other crude names and be "insensitive" has lasted for too long not to have
> some biological value.  I myself think it is the first step toward
> tolerance: 1. nameless evil, 2. named evil, 3. named joke, 4. named
> stranger, 5. named acquaintance, 6. named friend.
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 25 03:26:30 2002
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:26:30 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEAAFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <008501c2931f$962b8920$826ffea9@j1c1k6> <013f01c29457$16ca56a0$68864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <3DE1DEB6.1F8D7507@earthlink.net>

and beyond to #7----unnamed friend? multi-named friend?
friend who might be fiend? friend who might be lover?
friend who might be trafficking in the Viz-Po racket?
(liking as like the yellow light that has to turn
to the red light of anger (if not hate) to become
the green light of love?) lover as name?
lover as renamed friend? friend as slippery word
full of itself, overflowing, not "living up to"
and thus empty, but not necessarily
perjorative intimacy.....
linear chronos, end of ends
(lawd of lawd)....




>
>
> > Okay.  But I bet he could defend it if he really hadda.  Or if he really
> > thought about the fact that the propensity of human beings to call each
> > other crude names and be "insensitive" has lasted for too long not to have
> > some biological value.  I myself think it is the first step toward
> > tolerance: 1. nameless evil, 2. named evil, 3. named joke, 4. named
> > stranger, 5. named acquaintance, 6. named friend.
> >
> > --Bob G.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Nov 25 05:47:12 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 05:47:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEAAFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <008501c2931f$962b8920$826ffea9@j1c1k6> <013f01c29457$16ca56a0$68864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <002a01c29470$036cb8a0$d608fea9@j1c1k6>

> Yet more categories for us to ponder, Bob...
>
> Zan

Yup.  But remember, Zan: there isn't a word in any language that does not
designate a category.  By the way, what would you ask be done to help a poor
reader navigate all the poetry books in that store you want Poetry Magazine
to start up?  Anything?

--Bob G.



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Mon Nov 25 07:15:47 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:15:47 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEAAFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <008501c2931f$962b8920$826ffea9@j1c1k6> <013f01c29457$16ca56a0$68864cca@JROSS2> <002a01c29470$036cb8a0$d608fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <003901c2947c$65674f00$0300a8c0@JROSS2>

Alphabetically, by author, of course ... What could be simpler?

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet


> > Yet more categories for us to ponder, Bob...
> >
> > Zan
>
> Yup.  But remember, Zan: there isn't a word in any language that does not
> designate a category.  By the way, what would you ask be done to help a
poor
> reader navigate all the poetry books in that store you want Poetry
Magazine
> to start up?  Anything?
>
> --Bob G.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Mon Nov 25 07:19:42 2002
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:19:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Recently on the Blog
Message-ID: <000001c2947c$f404dc50$1842c143@Dell>

George Stanley:
A Tall, Serious Girl

Julia Spahr:
Articulation vs. argument

Ruth Lilly's Gift to Poetry:
The limits of $100 million

An email interview
in 3 parts:
15 questions
from Carl Boon

Language as a process of logic:
Jack Spicer & John Ashbery

Kevin Davies on nox:
The genre of the Lost Book

Robert Duncan's NY School poem:
The politics of the Berkeley Poetry Conference of '65

Philadelphia Progressive Poetry Calendar

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/






From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 25 07:29:01 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 05:29:01 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$
Message-ID: <3DE2178C.99E4654B@earthlink.net>

If you were on the Poetry board, would you consider this at all?

- Jim

Whose Hands Are Dirty?

November 25, 2002
By BOB HERBERT 


Thimerosal is a preservative that contains mercury and was
used for many years as an additive in some routinely
administered children's vaccines. 

Fears developed a few years ago that the additive might
have been causing dangerously elevated levels of mercury in
infants, resulting in neurological impairment and, in some
cases, autism. 

Studies thus far have neither shown nor ruled out a link
between the vaccines and neurological damage in children.
But in the summer of 1999 the American Academy of
Pediatrics and the Public Health Service urged vaccine
manufacturers to stop using thimerosal as quickly as
possible. 

Thus, thimerosal, which was developed by Eli Lilly &
Company in the 1920's and was in widespread use by the
1990's, is no longer added to vaccines commonly given to
children. But a serious controversy continues. Lawsuits
have been filed by parents across the country who are
convinced that their children suffered severe neurological
damage from the mercury in the vaccines. Talking to them
can be heartbreaking. 

Lyn Redwood, a nurse practitioner and the wife of a
physician in suburban Atlanta, spoke to me last week about
her 8-year-old son, Will. "I have a little boy who was
completely normal at birth - walking, talking, smiling,
meeting all of his developmental landmarks," she said.
"Then, shortly after he turned 1 year old, he lost his
ability to speak, to make eye contact. He started
regressing and ultimately was diagnosed with pervasive
developmental disorder, which falls into a spectrum of
autism disorders." 

Ms. Redwood contends that three infant vaccines
administered to her son when he was 2 months old exposed
him to levels of mercury that far exceeded all safety
guidelines. 

At this point we must interrupt our narrative and turn our
attention to the federal government's effort to fight
terrorism in the United States. 

Last week the Senate approved legislation to establish a
Department of Homeland Security and it will soon be signed
into law by the president. Buried in this massive bill,
snuck into it in the dark of night by persons unknown
(actually, it's fair to say by Republican persons unknown),
was a provision that - incredibly - will protect Eli Lilly
and a few other big pharmaceutical outfits from lawsuits by
parents who believe their children were harmed by
thimerosal. 

Now this has nothing to do with homeland security. Nothing.
This is not a provision that will in any way protect us
from the ferocious evil of Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. So
why is it there? Perhaps it has something to do with the
fact that the major drug companies have become a gigantic
collective cash machine for politicians, and that the vast
majority of that cash goes to Republicans. 

Or maybe it's related to the fact that Mitch Daniels, the
White House budget director, is a former Eli Lilly big
shot. Or the very convenient fact that just last June
President Bush appointed Eli Lilly's chairman, president
and C.E.O., Sidney Taurel, to a coveted seat on the
president's Homeland Security Advisory Council. 

There's a real bad smell here. Eli Lilly will benefit
greatly as both class-action and individual lawsuits are
derailed. But there are no fingerprints in sight. No one
will own up to a legislative deed that is both cynical and
shameful. 

An official spokesman for Eli Lilly, Edward Sagebiel,
insists the company knew nothing about it, nothing at all. 

While the vote for the Homeland Security Department was
overwhelming, even some Republicans were upset by the
provision to benefit Lilly and the other drug companies. 

Senator John McCain of Arizona characterized the provision
as "among the most inappropriate" in the homeland security
legislation. He said: "This language will primarily benefit
large brand-name pharmaceutical companies which produce
additives to children's vaccines - with substantial benefit
to one company in particular. It has no bearing whatsoever
on domestic security." 

The politicians with their hands out and the fat cats with
plenty of green to spread around have carried the day.
Nothing is too serious to exploit, not even the defense of
the homeland during a time of terror. 

Lyn Redwood put together an advocacy group, called Safe
Minds, for parents struggling with the thimerosal issue.
They're at a slight disadvantage, wielding a popgun against
the nuclear-powered influence of an Eli Lilly.?

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/25/opinion/25HERB.html?ex=1039225987&ei=1&en=f00a357f2ed59456


From mandolin at mac.com  Mon Nov 25 07:44:44 2002
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 04:44:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$
Message-ID: <7429174.1038228284905.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Monday, Nov 25, 2002, at 07:29AM, James Cervantes <jvcervantes at earthlink.net> wrote:

>If you were on the Poetry board, would you consider this at all?
>
>- Jim
>
[shameful story snipped]

Not at all.  Ruth Lilly is the 87 year-old granddaughter of the founder of the drug company, not its CEO or even on its board. She had no part in the development or use of Thimerol.


-Michael


From cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 25 10:54:06 2002
From: cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net (cindymonroe)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:54:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Middleton essay in SC Rev
References: <20021125121902.37014101C2@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <004501c2949a$e4112b00$d91b3ccc@net>

Just thought some of you might want to check out the recently issued South
Carolina Rev. (Fall 2002, Vol. 35, No.1) for David Middleton's ten-page
essay "The Old Responsibilities:  Measured Verse Restored."  It's a quick
survey of numerous, fairly recent books on expansive, new formalist and new
narrative verse (for lack of better or agreed upon terms.) In reviewing
David Mason's collection of essays, "The Poetry of Life and the Life of
Poetry...," Middleton says the following:  [Mason shows]...how the best
political poetry is good poetry first...how repulsive and inadequate many
self-destructive poets are...how a poet can be a plain-style formalist
(including being a supreme epigrammatist) and yet utterly modern in his
views...[and my favorite]...how narrative verse civilizes us by *the act of
inhabiting a stranger's experience*...

Cindy M.







From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Mon Nov 25 11:22:07 2002
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:22:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Middleton essay
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86FE7@mail.ripon.edu>

I think the notion that "narrative verse civilizes us" is problematic at
best, unless you add that so does lyric verse.  This sort of thing becomes
very tiresome--like those specious arguments that iambics are somehow more
organic & primal than other forms.  

I don't see why the "new narrative" polemicists can't praise narrative
without indulging in such glib dualisms.  I love narrative poetry, and I
also love the much maligned
free-verse-autobiographical-lyric-with-epiphany-at-the-end.  Many rooms in
the mansion and all that.

I would also second the recommendation of David Mason's book, by the way,
which as I recall does not merely indulge in free verse bashing.  

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	cindymonroe
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Monday, November 25, 2002 9:54 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] David Middleton essay in SC Rev
> 
> Just thought some of you might want to check out the recently issued South
> Carolina Rev. (Fall 2002, Vol. 35, No.1) for David Middleton's ten-page
> essay "The Old Responsibilities:  Measured Verse Restored."  It's a quick
> survey of numerous, fairly recent books on expansive, new formalist and
> new
> narrative verse (for lack of better or agreed upon terms.) In reviewing
> David Mason's collection of essays, "The Poetry of Life and the Life of
> Poetry...," Middleton says the following:  [Mason shows]...how the best
> political poetry is good poetry first...how repulsive and inadequate many
> self-destructive poets are...how a poet can be a plain-style formalist
> (including being a supreme epigrammatist) and yet utterly modern in his
> views...[and my favorite]...how narrative verse civilizes us by *the act
> of
> inhabiting a stranger's experience*...
> 
> Cindy M.
> 
> 
> 


From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 25 13:05:03 2002
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:05:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mason Plug
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86FE7@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <20021125180503.9662.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com>


I also want to plug David Mason's book, The Poetry of Life and the Life of Poetry. It's well written and entertaining as well as informative.  
David Graham's right, though--he does indulge in some free-verse bashing; however, Mason backs up his views.  He's open, also, to the possibility that there are other points of view beyond his own.
Jeff Newberry
 "Graham, David" <GrahamD at ripon.edu> wrote:I think the notion that "narrative verse civilizes us" is problematic at
best, unless you add that so does lyric verse. This sort of thing becomes
very tiresome--like those specious arguments that iambics are somehow more
organic & primal than other forms. 

I don't see why the "new narrative" polemicists can't praise narrative
without indulging in such glib dualisms. I love narrative poetry, and I
also love the much maligned
free-verse-autobiographical-lyric-with-epiphany-at-the-end. Many rooms in
the mansion and all that.

I would also second the recommendation of David Mason's book, by the way,
which as I recall does not merely indulge in free verse bashing. 

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page: 
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: cindymonroe
> Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:54 AM
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: [New-Poetry] David Middleton essay in SC Rev
> 
> Just thought some of you might want to check out the recently issued South
> Carolina Rev. (Fall 2002, Vol. 35, No.1) for David Middleton's ten-page
> essay "The Old Responsibilities: Measured Verse Restored." It's a quick
> survey of numerous, fairly recent books on expansive, new formalist and
> new
> narrative verse (for lack of better or agreed upon terms.) In reviewing
> David Mason's collection of essays, "The Poetry of Life and the Life of
> Poetry...," Middleton says the following: [Mason shows]...how the best
> political poetry is good poetry first...how repulsive and inadequate many
> self-destructive poets are...how a poet can be a plain-style formalist
> (including being a supreme epigrammatist) and yet utterly modern in his
> views...[and my favorite]...how narrative verse civilizes us by *the act
> of
> inhabiting a stranger's experience*...
> 
> Cindy M.
> 
> 
> 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


---------------------------------
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From ccooley at overdomain.com  Mon Nov 25 15:26:52 2002
From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:26:52 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lilly $$$
In-Reply-To: <20021125170102.96377101FF@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHMECNCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

Jim,
As I understand it, the gift to Poetry is not cash, but stock in the Lilly
pharmaceutical.  The verbiage in the Homeland bill protecting the company
from lawsuits will directly affect the Company's revenue picture, and
therefore the value of the stock.  This would put Poetry in the position of
benefiting directly from the misfortune of children and their parents who
cannot successfully sue for damages from thimerosal.  A strange position for
poetry, I'd say.

Cris

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 05:29:01 -0700
From: James Cervantes <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

If you were on the Poetry board, would you consider this at all?

- Jim

Whose Hands Are Dirty?

November 25, 2002
By BOB HERBERT =



Thimerosal is a preservative that contains mercury and was
used for many years as an additive in some routinely
administered children's vaccines. =







From cathy at eskimo.com  Sat Nov 23 19:54:00 2002
From: cathy at eskimo.com (cathy munro)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 16:54:00 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] email virus **IS** a hoax!
In-Reply-To: <12c.1bef9e72.2b116fd6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.1.0.20021123165303.05d849d0@mail.eskimo.com>

all,

this is a hoax. please see:
http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/jdbgmgr.exe.file.hoax.html



At 06:57 PM 11/23/02 -0500, FanwoodJEL at aol.com said:

>All,
>
>After you delet the virus as instructe, you MUST immediately shut down and 
>restart your computer. Otherwise, it will just replicate.
>
>Jeffrey Levine


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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 25 16:44:52 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:44:52 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lilly $$$
References: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHMECNCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
Message-ID: <3DE299D3.4232BC05@earthlink.net>

Exactly.  Stock or cash, it is still tainted money.  Poetry has a
decision to make.

- Jim

Crisman Cooley wrote:
> 
> Jim,
> As I understand it, the gift to Poetry is not cash, but stock in the Lilly
> pharmaceutical.  The verbiage in the Homeland bill protecting the company
> from lawsuits will directly affect the Company's revenue picture, and
> therefore the value of the stock.  This would put Poetry in the position of
> benefiting directly from the misfortune of children and their parents who
> cannot successfully sue for damages from thimerosal.  A strange position for
> poetry, I'd say.
> 
> Cris
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 05:29:01 -0700
> From: James Cervantes <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> If you were on the Poetry board, would you consider this at all?
> 
> - Jim
> 
> Whose Hands Are Dirty?
> 
> November 25, 2002
> By BOB HERBERT =
> 
> Thimerosal is a preservative that contains mercury and was
> used for many years as an additive in some routinely
> administered children's vaccines. =
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Nov 25 17:04:16 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:04:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEAAFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <008501c2931f$962b8920$826ffea9@j1c1k6> <013f01c29457$16ca56a0$68864cca@JROSS2> <002a01c29470$036cb8a0$d608fea9@j1c1k6> <003901c2947c$65674f00$0300a8c0@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <002501c294ce$991d4000$596cfea9@j1c1k6>

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 6:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harvard re-invites poet
>
>
> > > Yet more categories for us to ponder, Bob...
> > >
> > > Zan
> >
> > Yup.  But remember, Zan: there isn't a word in any language that does
not
> > designate a category.  By the way, what would you ask be done to help a
> poor
> > reader navigate all the poetry books in that store you want Poetry
> Magazine
> > to start up?  Anything?
> >
> > --Bob G.

> Alphabetically, by author, of course ... What could be simpler?
>
> Zan
>


Yeah, that WOULD be a big help.  I guess I wasn't thinking.

--Bob G.



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Nov 25 17:36:53 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:36:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] defamiliarization?
Message-ID: <16a.179ca185.2b140005@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/23/02 5:50:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu writes:

> Poetry also defamiliarizes the familiar so that it can be seen in a 
>  different way.
>  ellen s.

What oft was thought, but ne'er so well expressed, was how
Pope put it. Does the poet need to do more than this...or is 
this enough? (I'm having trouble following this thread.) 
In my opinion, it is enough for a good poem. A really fine
poem, though, is going to drive the reader's mind over some 
new ground. Or at least bring to the fore of consciousness 
what was thought of previously in only the vaguest of forms. 
Finnegan


From mandolin at mac.com  Mon Nov 25 20:55:45 2002
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:55:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lilly $$$
In-Reply-To: <3DE299D3.4232BC05@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2D544430-00E2-11D7-93CF-000393C29586@mac.com>

On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 04:44  PM, James Cervantes wrote:

> Exactly.  Stock or cash, it is still tainted money.  Poetry has a
> decision to make.

Just how is it tainted? Did this 87 year-old recluse lobby for that 
disgusting bill? Did she develop the additive in the 20s, or encourage 
its use in the 90s? Are  you aware that there is no evidence yet that 
thimerosal really has anything to do with autism? Even in the 
extraordinarily unlikely event that the stock part of the gift (and it 
isn't all stock, see 
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/19/books/19GIFT.html ) is entirely Lilly 
stock, do you think the additive really contributed a major part of the 
wealth that stock represents? Is there any evidence that Eli Lilly has 
tried to suppress investigation of thimerosal? Should Poetry stop 
giving Ruth Lilly Fellowships and the Ruth Lilly Prize?  Should 
recipients give the money back?

And hey, are you aware the computers you use to post to this list are 
made with Chinese components produced in sweatshops?  $0.30/hr, 18 
hours a day --  http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/4600345.htm 
  When are you going to give back your computer?



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Mon Nov 25 21:57:00 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 20:57:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative vs. Lyric (was: Mason plug)
Message-ID: <200211260255.gAQ2toUf011201@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

I went back to the Mason book to verify my memory of it; and yes, he is able
to praise narrative verse without merely dismissing the lyric.  

One relevant passage:

"Empathy, the act of inhabiting a stranger's experience, is a civilizing
process.  It implies connection, community, relasing the poet--who otherwise
seems 'Encased in talent like a uniform'--from isolation.  Fiction's
advantage has usually been considered its interest in society as well as the
lives of specific individuals, and poets can envy this, particularly when
the lyric 'I' has become repetitious, nearly automatic.  Tennyson and
Browning began in Romantic subjectivity, and balanced their careers on the
taut line between those early impulses and an opposing impulse toward the
objectivity of storytelling.  In our time the line has been stretched
between similar poles; one mode of expression loses power through overuse,
and poets naturally turn to the opposite mode to restore vital tension. 
Rather than leaping to the conclusion that the subjective lyric is dead and
we can only stay aloft on the shoulders of a good story, we should admit
that there are advantages and disadvantages to every genre, and that poets
are better off when they can write more than one kind of poem."

     ("Other Lives:  On Shorter Narrative Poems."  *The Poetry of Life and
the Life of Poetry*.  Storyline, 2000.
_________

The final sentence above is the one that wins me over.  Seems to me that
this subject has attracted too much either/or thinking in the recent past. 
Personally, I think the subjective lyric will die when the human race dies,
and not before.  Same with narrative.  I also trust that Mason would agree
that lyric poetry also civilizes, even if in a distinct way from narrative. 


Yet though I admire the desire for even-handedness in what Mason says here,
I do have some qualms.  Does lyric poetry by definition have *no* "interest
in society" or in "the lives of specific individuals"?  Is "connection,
community" never achieved in a lyric?  Can't lyrics arise from empathy?  On
the other hand, is storytelling necessarily "objective"?  Isn't there a
great deal of fiction that does anything *but* "inhabit a stranger's
experience"?  And so forth.  

None of these qualms invalidate the qualities that Mason sees and admires in
certain narrative poets, I don't think.  But when I think of great lyric
poems, I certainly can readily come up with examples that elude tidy
definitions in terms of these dualisms.  Some of Whitman's "Drum Taps" poems
for example, are as rich with empathy and a sense of community as any in the
language; neither are they encased in an isolating subjectivity.

========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================


----------
From: Jeff Newberry <jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mason Plug
Date: Mon, Nov 25, 2002, 12:05 PM



I also want to plug David Mason's book, The Poetry of Life and the Life of
Poetry. It's well written and entertaining as well as informative.  

David Graham's right, though--he does indulge in some free-verse bashing;
however, Mason backs up his views.  He's open, also, to the possibility that
there are other points of view beyond his own. 

Jeff Newberry 

 
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Nov 26 00:36:01 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:36:01 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative vs. Lyric (was: Mason plug)
Message-ID: <23.280e8e2a.2b146241@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/25/2002 8:57:09 PM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
>  Some of Whitman's "Drum Taps" poems for example, are as rich with empathy 
> and a sense of community as any in the language; neither are they encased 
> in an isolating subjectivity.
> 
Of course not.  Many of them, like "Cavalry Crossing a Ford," seem to aspire 
to the objectivity of a Brady photograph.  "The Wound-Dresser" is a dramatic 
monologue, and "A Sight in Camp in the Daybreak Gray and Dim" is allegorical 
narrative.  Taken as a whole, "Drum Taps" contains some of Whitman's least 
subjective poetry--and certainly some of his most empathetic.
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Nov 26 07:49:02 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:49:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lilly $$$
In-Reply-To: <2D544430-00E2-11D7-93CF-000393C29586@mac.com>
References: <3DE299D3.4232BC05@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3DE3276E.26227.16B937@localhost>

> > Exactly.  Stock or cash, it is still tainted money.  Poetry has a
> > decision to make.<<

Tainted by what?  Allegations?  






Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 26 07:49:21 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 05:49:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lilly $$$
References: <2D544430-00E2-11D7-93CF-000393C29586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <3DE36DD1.C3A4642E@earthlink.net>

My, my, my.  You're right.  This has nothing to do with the 87 year-old
recluse. All money prior to thimerosal, and prior to the protection of
the value of Lilly stock by a rider in the Homeland Security Act is
clean money.  Meanwhile, I'll check the lineage of all the parts in my Mac.

- Jim

Michael Snider wrote:
> 
> On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 04:44  PM, James Cervantes wrote:
> 
> > Exactly.  Stock or cash, it is still tainted money.  Poetry has a
> > decision to make.
> 
> Just how is it tainted? Did this 87 year-old recluse lobby for that
> disgusting bill? Did she develop the additive in the 20s, or encourage
> its use in the 90s? Are  you aware that there is no evidence yet that
> thimerosal really has anything to do with autism? Even in the
> extraordinarily unlikely event that the stock part of the gift (and it
> isn't all stock, see
> http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/19/books/19GIFT.html ) is entirely Lilly
> stock, do you think the additive really contributed a major part of the
> wealth that stock represents? Is there any evidence that Eli Lilly has
> tried to suppress investigation of thimerosal? Should Poetry stop
> giving Ruth Lilly Fellowships and the Ruth Lilly Prize?  Should
> recipients give the money back?
> 
> And hey, are you aware the computers you use to post to this list are
> made with Chinese components produced in sweatshops?  $0.30/hr, 18
> hours a day --  http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/4600345.htm
>   When are you going to give back your computer?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From nicepop at sympatico.ca  Mon Nov 25 22:56:58 2002
From: nicepop at sympatico.ca (nicepop)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:56:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines form Poems
Message-ID: <005d01c294ff$de893320$caecfea9@cator98-0053324>

Hello:

Can anybody help identify Authors of these lines?

a) We have lingered in the chambers of the sea

By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown

Till human voices wake us, and we drown.

b) The apparition of these faces in the crowd;

Petals on a wet, black bough.

c) Women and men (both little and small)

cared for anyone not at all

they sowed their isn't they reaped their same

sun moon stars rain

d) He holds him with his skinny hand,

'There was a ship,' quote he.

'Hold off! Unhand me, grey-beard loon!'

Eftsoons his hand dropt he.

Thanks



Phil
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Nov 26 12:33:49 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:33:49 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines form Poems
Message-ID: <14f.17e1bc1f.2b150a7d@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/26/2002 11:09:57 AM Central Standard Time, 
nicepop at sympatico.ca writes:


> a) We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
> By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
> Till human voices wake us, and we drown.



This is by Lloyd Bridges, who wrote under the pen name of Mike Nelson.

> ) The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
> Petals on a wet, black bough.


This was written by Langston Hughes.

> ) Women and men (both little and small)
> cared for anyone not at all
> they sowed their isn't they reaped their same
> sun moon stars rain


This was written by William Shakespeare before he got famous.

> ) He holds him with his skinny hand,
> 'There was a ship,' quote he.
> 'Hold off! Unhand me, grey-beard loon!'
> Eftsoons his hand dropt he.
> 

This was written by Emily Dickinson, shortly after meeting Walt Whitman.

Thanks
> 
>  
> Phil
> 
> 

Just use a search-engine, pal.
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Nov 26 13:54:24 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:54:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Death sentence
Message-ID: <BA091F80.3B7A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Death sentence to woman writer for her article.


http://sg.news.yahoo.com/021126/1/352r3.html



From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 26 14:08:56 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:08:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Po-biz: The Prequel
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEDOFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

You don't expect to find much about poetry or po-biz in the science
section of the NYT, but, hey, these are strange times.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

=============
November 26, 2002
A Mummy's Bequest: Poems From a Master
By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD


CINCINNATI ? A mummy's gift, a forsaken papyrus scroll borne these 2,100 years or so over an entombed breast, now stands revealed to
scholars as a multifaceted jewel of epigrammatic poetry from the cultural heyday of Alexandrian Egypt.

The well-preserved scroll is being celebrated as a triumph of the archaeology of literature, the most significant discovery of Greek
poetry in decades.

Written in the third century B.C., the poems on the papyrus appear to be 112 collected works of Posidippus of Pella, a prominent
writer of epigrams, and constitute what scholars say is the oldest surviving example of a Greek poetry book. (The Homeric epics, the
"Iliad" and the "Odyssey," from around the eighth century B.C., are long single poems, not collections.)

The mummy itself dates from no earlier than about 170 B.C. No one seems to know if the body was a man's or woman's, or where it is
now. Found by tomb robbers in Egypt, the mummy, or at least the papyrus, passed through the European antiquities market in the
1990's and came to rest with scholars at the University of Milan, who published the poetry last year.

Ever since, the Milan Papyrus, as it is called, has been the talk of philologists and historians who know their ancient Greek from
alpha to omega. "It's such a thrill to be given a new text," said Dr. David Sider, a classics professor at New York University.

His excitement was shared by more than 60 scholars meeting this month at the University of Cincinnati to evaluate the discovery. The
papyrus not only adds fivefold to the known corpus of epigrams by Posidippus, they said, but it illuminates a critical transitional
period in Greek writing.

Most earlier literature was meant for performance. Bards recited their poems before audiences. Actors seldom worked from scripts but
were told by the dramatist what to say and do in plays. And epigrams, short and often witty, were confined mainly to verses. In its
original meaning, an epigram was anything written on an object, usually an inscription on stone.

But the newfound scroll was designed for wider reading, specialists in Greek writing said, and that is new. It also shows that by
the time of Posidippus, epigrammatists had literary aspirations.

Expanding on the usual couplets, Posidippus composed in the same meter poems on the wonders of nature, of gems and rocks and weather
omens. He described cures for ills and was fascinated with death by shipwreck. He critiqued sculpture. Directly or by inference, he
wrote of the wealth and ambitions of the heirs to Alexander the Great, his patrons the Ptolemies, who ruled Egypt from Alexandria.

The poet gave special attention to the queens, whose influence ran deep and whose horses ran victorious in Olympic races.

Read together in the papyrus collection, Dr. Kathryn J. Gutzwiller of Cincinnati said, the epigrams are seen "not just as small
gemlike objects," but also as components of larger themes that have been artfully created and interwoven "to suggest meanings that
cannot be conveyed in the brevity of a solitary epigram."

The poems were copied on the papyrus either while the author was writing, from 280 to 240 B.C., or soon enough afterward, scholars
think, so that they are probably arranged in the order he wanted them read. Most ancient Greek literature has survived only as
copies of copies produced centuries after the authors lived.

"Today, we take collections of poetry for granted, but literature didn't appear in that form until after 300 B.C.," said Dr.
Gutzwiller, who organized the conference. The invention of the poetry book, she said, seems directly tied to these epigrams.

In the papyrus, moreover, the scholars said they could see the model for all subsequent Greek and Roman poetry books.

Like many artifacts in archaeology, the papyrus scroll survived to become a treasure because in antiquity it was nothing more than
trash. In the centuries before paper, papyrus was a common writing material, made from reed pulp, and its use in Egypt was probably
as old as the early pharaohs. Egyptians sometimes recycled discarded sheets in mummy decorations.

In the third and second centuries B.C., after a corpse was mummified and wrapped in linen strips, a kind of papier-m?ch? casing, or
cartonnage, was placed over the chest. This was often made from compressed layers of used papyrus. The cartonnage in question was
brightly painted in red, white and blue, with flourishes of winged griffins ? a prized find for tomb robbers.

"I don't think anyone knows the details of what happened, or if they do, they're not talking," said Dr. Dirk Obbink, a papyrologist
at the University of Oxford. "The Egyptians have laws against looting and might demand the return of the papyrus."

The looters found the mummy in the Fayum, a desert region southwest of Cairo, and smuggled the cartonnage to Europe in the last 10
to 20 years, Dr. Obbink said. A Swiss dealer circulated photographs, and somehow the value of the papyrus was suspected. The layers
were presumably separated by soaking in warm water, then pressed and dried. The carbon-black ink of the script was still legible.

After some scholars heard of the find, Dr. Obbink said, an Italian bank acting for the University of Milan outbid a German
university consortium to buy the scroll for a price thought to be about $1 million.

On close examination, Dr. William A. Johnson, a Cincinnati classicist, found the papyrus to be of middling quality and the tiny,
cramped script the run-of-the-mill work of a professional scribe. This was, he concluded, "certainly far from a showpiece designed
to impress elite friends with the quality of the book-as-object."

But Dr. Johnson was struck by notations in the margins. This appeared to be the hand of a reader, he suggested, who was focused on
selecting poems for a new edition.

The 112 poems consist of more than 600 lines in nine sections. The Milan editors think a 10th section may be lurking in the papyrus
scraps at the end of the surviving text. The beginning may also be missing.

Although a few scholars are unconvinced that Posidippus is the author of all the poems, nothing in the scroll suggests the work of
others. Two of the poems were already known to scholars and had been attributed in ancient times to Posidippus. If there had been
multiple authors, Dr. Gutzwiller said, their names would more than likely have appeared in the text.

In the opening and longest section, the subject is stones, particularly the luminosity of gemstones and the delicacy of the
engraver's workmanship in creating out of them miniaturist art. As Dr. Peter Bing of Emory University noted, it may not have escaped
Posidippus that the art of gemstones was comparable to epigrams themselves.

Posidippus, Dr. Bing said, may also have been using gemstones and their far-flung origins to chart the political geography of the
world from Alexandria's perspective.

At Alexander's death in 323, the empire stretching across to India was divided among surviving generals. The Ptolemies of Macedonia
inherited Egypt and adjacent territory, and their rule lasted until the defeat of the illustrious Cleopatra by Rome toward the end
of the first century B.C. The Ptolemies made the city of Alexandria a thriving center of Hellenistic culture.

The papyrus reveals that Posidippus, a fellow Macedonian, must have functioned as a court poet, particularly in the reign of Ptolemy
II Philadelphus and Arsinoe II, his sister, wife and queen.

In the stone poems, Posidippus seemed to give voice to Ptolemaic aspirations as grand as Alexander's conquests. The poems suggest,
Dr. Bing said, that the Ptolemies "were not content just to control the world but also gather together under one political umbrella
all the wonders of the world."

Dr. Ann Kuttner, an art historian at the University of Pennsylvania, saw the poems as evidence "about practices in making, owning
and looking at things, that is, the object culture in which the poems were made and first read." This collecting impulse had its
flowering in the famous museum and library of ancient Alexandria.

Dr. Nita Krevans, a classics professor at the University of Minnesota, called attention to the connection between some of these
poems ? especially those about oddly shaped stones, springs that cure diseases and prophetic birds ? and contemporary prose
treatises in the same vein.

These "wonder books" in prose, she said, were ancient versions of "Ripley's Believe It or Not." The genre continued to be popular in
Roman literature, notably Pliny's encylopedic "Natural History."

Posidippus was not the first to compose such "didactic" poems, Dr. Sider of N.Y.U. said. Posidippus presumably modeled his on
earlier, much longer ones that put factual matter like the weather and the nature of the universe into verse. But until his work
emerged, the epigram had not been thought of as a didactic vehicle.

Consciously trying to invent the didactic epigram, Posidippus gave readers a fact or two in a four- to six-line poem. But the form
apparently did not appeal to many people, for the didactic epigram seems to have died with him.

Still, Dr. Sider quipped, "Why not consider Posidippus the inventor of the factoid?"

The text of the Milan Papyrus, with translations in Italian and English, has been published by the University of Milan. The book,
"Posidippo di Pella: Epigrammi," was edited by Dr. Guido Bastianini and Dr. Claudio Gallazzi in collaboration with Dr. Colin Austin
of the University of Cambridge.

The papyrus scroll held one striking surprise: the absence of erotic verse. Judging by his previously known poems, mainly preserved
in an anthology from about 100 B.C., Posidippus had a lusty interest in sex. But here, except for veiled allusions to a race between
two prominent prostitutes (whose customers are characterized as "colts of the evening just starting to whinny!"), the poet had other
things on his mind. "We knew before that Posidippus was mainly interested in poetry, drinking and love-making, also shipwrecks,"
said Dr. Frank Nisetich, a classicist and Greek translator at Boston University. "For some reason, drinking and love-making had no
part in the new poems."

Scholars only responded with worldly smiles to suggestions that the poet's previous reputation for erotica might reflect more on the
later anthologist's own selective tastes, or that the newly discovered scroll perhaps collected the oeuvre of Posidippus in old age.







From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Tue Nov 26 14:33:26 2002
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:33:26 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines form Poems
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86FF9@mail.ripon.edu>

> b
> 
> 	) The apparition of these faces in the crowd; 
> Petals on a wet, black bough.
> 
> This was written by Langston Hughes. 
__________________

No.  Good guess, though.  It's a common mistake.  Actually the lines were
written by Howard "Haiku" Hughes, younger brother of Langston.  Howard
Hughes was later an important figure in the Las Vegas Renaissance, along
with James Lyndon Johnson and Melvin B. Colson, who later worked in the
Nixon Administration.  

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------


From barr at mail.rochester.edu  Tue Nov 26 14:47:59 2002
From: barr at mail.rochester.edu (Brandon Barr)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:47:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines from Poems
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86FF9@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <KBEPJACPFJBINNIIMMOECEAFCKAA.barr@mail.rochester.edu>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Graham, David
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 2:33 PM
> To: 'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines form Poems
> >
> > 	) The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
> > Petals on a wet, black bough.
> >
> > This was written by Langston Hughes.
> __________________
>
> No.  Good guess, though.  It's a common mistake.  Actually the lines were
> written by Howard "Haiku" Hughes, younger brother of Langston.  Howard
> Hughes was later an important figure in the Las Vegas Renaissance, along
> with James Lyndon Johnson and Melvin B. Colson, who later worked in the
> Nixon Administration.

It's also little known that the entire structure of the poem was imposed
after Hughes's death by Nixon himself.  The poem as we have come to know it
actually contains several varients from the orginal.  Most scholars atribute
these varients to the fact that the younger Hughes only saved two copies of
the poem, both handwritten on cocktail napkins.  The copy Nixon edited into
the form we know and love was smudged by Nixon's tumbler of J&B on the
rocks, which he accidently set on the poem during his editing.  Recently the
second cocktail napkin was uncovered at the University of Buffalo, and the
variant version was discovered:

  The acceleration
  of those
  races on the cow;

  Pickles
  and a wet
  black boy.

Referring, of course, to Howard's idyllic rural childhood on his uncle's
dairy farm in Hoboken, NJ.

brandon
---
http://bannerart.org/
http://texturl.net/




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Nov 26 14:53:03 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:53:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines form Poems
References: <005d01c294ff$de893320$caecfea9@cator98-0053324>
Message-ID: <003c01c29585$6f09d6e0$25effea9@j1c1k6>

Eliot, Pound, Cummings, Coleridge
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: nicepop 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 10:56 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines form Poems


  Hello:
   
  Can anybody help identify Authors of these lines?
   
  a) We have lingered in the chambers of the sea

  By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown

  Till human voices wake us, and we drown.

  b) The apparition of these faces in the crowd;

  Petals on a wet, black bough.

  c) Women and men (both little and small)

  cared for anyone not at all

  they sowed their isn't they reaped their same

  sun moon stars rain

  d) He holds him with his skinny hand,

  'There was a ship,' quote he.

  'Hold off! Unhand me, grey-beard loon!'

  Eftsoons his hand dropt he.

  Thanks



  Phil

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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 26 14:58:07 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:58:07 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Po-biz: The Prequel
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEDOFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3DE3D24E.B9B7AF52@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> You don't expect to find much about poetry or po-biz in the science
> section of the NYT, but, hey, these are strange times.
> 
> Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> =============
> November 26, 2002
> A Mummy's Bequest: Poems From a Master
> By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
> 
> CINCINNATI ? A mummy's gift, a forsaken papyrus scroll borne these 2,100 years or so over an entombed breast, now stands revealed to
> scholars as a multifaceted jewel of epigrammatic poetry from the cultural heyday of Alexandrian Egypt.

etc.

This article is crying "Re-write me!" and so I may give it a shot.  As
for me, my manuscripts are going to the oven with my bod.

- Jim


From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Tue Nov 26 14:59:44 2002
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:59:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines from Poems
Message-ID: <07A31BE6.6552EED8.0B0E6811@aol.com>

In an even earlier draft, found written in india ink a tie-dyed tee in Ruth Stone's attic, the line:

The apparition of these faces 
Across the flooded field,
Feathers on a wet, blue heron

Jeffrey Levine
Research Assistant to Chuck W. Colson
Special Counsel on Prosody, Nixon Administration
Standing on one leg

In a message dated 11/26/2002 2:47:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, barr at mail.rochester.edu writes:

> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Graham, David
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 2:33 PM
> > To: 'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines form Poems
> > >
> > >     ) The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
> > > Petals on a wet, black bough.
> > >
> > > This was written by Langston Hughes.
> > __________________
> >
> > No.  Good guess, though.  It's a common mistake.  Actually the lines were
> > written by Howard "Haiku" Hughes, younger brother of Langston.  Howard
> > Hughes was later an important figure in the Las Vegas Renaissance, along
> > with James Lyndon Johnson and Melvin B. Colson, who later worked in the
> > Nixon Administration.
> 
> It's also little known that the entire structure of the poem was imposed
> after Hughes's death by Nixon himself.  The poem as we have come to know it
> actually contains several varients from the orginal.  Most scholars atribute
> these varients to the fact that the younger Hughes only saved two copies of
> the poem, both handwritten on cocktail napkins.  The copy Nixon edited into
> the form we know and love was smudged by Nixon's tumbler of J&B on the
> rocks, which he accidently set on the poem during his editing.  Recently the
> second cocktail napkin was uncovered at the University of Buffalo, and the
> variant version was discovered:
> 
>  The acceleration
>  of those
>  races on the cow;
> 
>  Pickles
>  and a wet
>  black boy.
> 
> Referring, of course, to Howard's idyllic rural childhood 
> on his uncle's
> dairy farm in Hoboken, NJ.
> 
> brandon
> ---
> http://bannerart.org/
> http://texturl.net/
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 26 15:12:14 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 13:12:14 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Po-biz: The Prequel
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEDOFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <3DE3D24E.B9B7AF52@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3DE3D59D.18B1520D@earthlink.net>

My apologies.  Hal sometimes sends the same post to several lists and I
responded here as if it were another list.

- Jim

James Cervantes wrote:
> 
> Halvard Johnson wrote:
> >
> > You don't expect to find much about poetry or po-biz in the science
> > section of the NYT, but, hey, these are strange times.
> >
> > Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
> >
> > Halvard Johnson
> > ===============
> > email: halvard at earthlink.net
> > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> >
> > =============
> > November 26, 2002
> > A Mummy's Bequest: Poems From a Master
> > By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
> >
> > CINCINNATI ? A mummy's gift, a forsaken papyrus scroll borne these 2,100 years or so over an entombed breast, now stands revealed to
> > scholars as a multifaceted jewel of epigrammatic poetry from the cultural heyday of Alexandrian Egypt.
> 
> etc.
> 
> This article is crying "Re-write me!" and so I may give it a shot.  As
> for me, my manuscripts are going to the oven with my bod.
> 
> - Jim
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 26 15:09:45 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:09:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Po-biz: The Prequel
In-Reply-To: <3DE3D59D.18B1520D@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEECFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

 
{    My apologies.  Hal sometimes sends the same post to several lists and I
{    responded here as if it were another list.
{    
{    - Jim

That's okay, Jim. This *is* another list.

Hal         Not responsible for typographical errors.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Nov 26 15:30:34 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:30:34 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines from Poems
Message-ID: <1bf.15b06cca.2b1533ea@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/26/2002 2:07:40 PM Central Standard Time, 
FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: 
> The apparition of these faces 
> Across the flooded field,
> Feathers on a wet, blue heron
> 
> Jeffrey Levine
> Research Assistant to Chuck W. Colson
> Special Counsel on Prosody, Nixon Administration
> Standing on one leg
> 
Aha!  This was plagiarized from a James Wright poem.  The fourth line, 
omitted by Stone, was: "I have wasted my life."
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From mandolin at mac.com  Tue Nov 26 15:50:36 2002
From: mandolin at mac.com (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:50:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Po-biz: The Prequel
Message-ID: <1922763.1038343836287.JavaMail.mandolin@mac.com>

 
On Tuesday, Nov 26, 2002, at 02:08PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:

>You don't expect to find much about poetry or po-biz in the science
>section of the NYT, but, hey, these are strange times.
>
>Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
>
 A few days ago the estimable Arts & Letters Daily ( http://www.aldaily.com// ) linked a piece ( http://chronicle.com/free/2002/11/2002112204n.htm )from the Chronical of Higher Education on the same subject, but included more about the po biz. Some choice excerpts:

"Until recently, Posidippus, a Greek poet who worked in Egypt during the third century BC, was scarcely anyone's idea of an important writer. To be sure, he enjoyed a measure of success during his lifetime ... "

"Classicists have long paid far more attention to Callimachus, an Alexandrian poet and scholar with whom he had a famous (if now little understood) literary dispute."

"And then Mr. Thomas adds an afterthought that must fill Hades with howls of anger. The scroll will prove especially fascinating, he says, 'if one or two of the poems are, as I suspect, the work of the greater poet, Callimachus.'"


From malachitemoon at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 26 15:56:05 2002
From: malachitemoon at hotmail.com (Adriana Malachite)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:56:05 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines form Poems
Message-ID: <F43pJviiGXzDG5L1HZH00029cab@hotmail.com>

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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 26 20:15:25 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:15:25 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative vs. Lyric (was: Mason plug)
Message-ID: <fb.30f481b1.2b1576ad@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/25/02 9:57:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> One relevant passage:
>  
>  "Empathy, the act of inhabiting a stranger's experience, is a civilizing
>  process.  It implies connection, community, relasing the poet--who 
otherwise
>  seems 'Encased in talent like a uniform'--from isolation.  Fiction's
>  advantage has usually been considered its interest in society as well as 
the
>  lives of specific individuals, and poets can envy this, particularly when
>  the lyric 'I' has become repetitious, nearly automatic.  Tennyson and
>  Browning began in Romantic subjectivity, and balanced their careers on the
>  taut line between those early impulses and an opposing impulse toward the
>  objectivity of storytelling.  In our time the line has been stretched
>  between similar poles; one mode of expression loses power through overuse,
>  and poets naturally turn to the opposite mode to restore vital tension. 
>  Rather than leaping to the conclusion that the subjective lyric is dead and
>  we can only stay aloft on the shoulders of a good story, we should admit
>  that there are advantages and disadvantages to every genre, and that poets
>  are better off when they can write more than one kind of poem."
>  
>       ("Other Lives:  On Shorter Narrative Poems."  *The Poetry of Life and
>  the Life of Poetry*.  Storyline, 2000.
>  _________
>  
>  The final sentence above is the one that wins me over.  Seems to me that
>  this subject has attracted too much either/or thinking in the recent past. 
>  Personally, I think the subjective lyric will die when the human race dies,
>  and not before.  Same with narrative.  I also trust that Mason would agree
>  that lyric poetry also civilizes, even if in a distinct way from 
narrative. 
>  
>  
>  Yet though I admire the desire for even-handedness in what Mason says here,
>  I do have some qualms.  Does lyric poetry by definition have *no* "interest
>  in society" or in "the lives of specific individuals"?  Is "connection,
>  community" never achieved in a lyric?  Can't lyrics arise from empathy?  On
>  the other hand, is storytelling necessarily "objective"?  Isn't there a
>  great deal of fiction that does anything *but* "inhabit a stranger's
>  experience"?  And so forth.  
>  
>  None of these qualms invalidate the qualities that Mason sees and admires 
in
>  certain narrative poets, I don't think.  But when I think of great lyric
>  poems, I certainly can readily come up with examples that elude tidy
>  definitions in terms of these dualisms.  Some of Whitman's "Drum Taps" 
poems
>  for example, are as rich with empathy and a sense of community as any in 
the
>  language; neither are they encased in an isolating subjectivity.
>  
David,
I think Mason's thesis, from the snip you gave, is deeply flawed.
The narrative poem resists more the empathetic response. The
lyric completely opens itself to empathy. Begin at nearly the
beginning with a poem like Western Wind. 
It's true the lyric is a subjective literary emanation, but the very
fact of poem-making undercuts that impulse. The lyric poem
(by being a poem) is a cry to be heard (read); and once read
(heard) the subjectivity is completely shattered. It becomes a 
shared experience. The lyric that we respond to, that speaks
to us, is speaking also for us. It's probably not too bold an
assessment to say that empathy is what the successful lyric
must achieve. It is not speaking at us; as is the case with narrative. 
Finnegan


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 26 20:28:41 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:28:41 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative vs. Lyric (was: Mason plug)
References: <fb.30f481b1.2b1576ad@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DE41FC8.A670E2CB@earthlink.net>


JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> The lyric poem
> (by being a poem) is a cry to be heard (read); and once read
> (heard) the subjectivity is completely shattered. It becomes a
> shared experience. The lyric that we respond to, that speaks
> to us, is speaking also for us. It's probably not too bold an
> assessment to say that empathy is what the successful lyric
> must achieve. It is not speaking at us; as is the case with narrative.
> Finnegan
> 

Bingo, Finnegan!

- Jim


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Nov 26 20:35:12 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:35:12 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$
Message-ID: <26.319cc5eb.2b157b50@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/25/02 7:32:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:

> Lawsuits
>  have been filed by parents across the country who are
>  convinced that their children suffered severe neurological
>  damage from the mercury in the vaccines. Talking to them
>  can be heartbreaking. 
After appropriate coaching from the trial lawyers. These
mega-class actions are often greedy plays by "a corporation
of attorneys' who seem to think that everything that turns
out badly is someone's fault. 
Finnegan


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 26 20:53:11 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:53:11 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$
References: <26.319cc5eb.2b157b50@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DE42586.D979AE9E@earthlink.net>


JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 11/25/02 7:32:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:
> 
> > Lawsuits
> >  have been filed by parents across the country who are
> >  convinced that their children suffered severe neurological
> >  damage from the mercury in the vaccines. Talking to them
> >  can be heartbreaking.
> After appropriate coaching from the trial lawyers. These
> mega-class actions are often greedy plays by "a corporation
> of attorneys' who seem to think that everything that turns
> out badly is someone's fault.

Well, I didn't write that.  It's part of something I quoted.  Everything
that turns out badly has a cause.  "Fault" is a loaded word.

- Jim


From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 26 21:43:21 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:43:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$
In-Reply-To: <3DE42586.D979AE9E@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEEJFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    Everything
{    that turns out badly has a cause.  "Fault" is a loaded word.
{    
{    - Jim

A cause, or two causes, or several. Finding "fault" is usually just
a way of determining who has to pay, one way or another.

Hal         Not responsible for typographical errors.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Nov 26 22:30:30 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:30:30 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative vs. Lyric (was: Mason plug)
Message-ID: <38.31cecdba.2b159656@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/26/2002 7:16:24 PM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> I think Mason's thesis, from the snip you gave, is deeply flawed.
> The narrative poem resists more the empathetic response. The
> lyric completely opens itself to empathy. Begin at nearly the
> beginning with a poem like Western Wind. 
> It's true the lyric is a subjective literary emanation, but the very
> fact of poem-making undercuts that impulse. The lyric poem
> (by being a poem) is a cry to be heard (read); and once read
> (heard) the subjectivity is completely shattered. It becomes a 
> shared experience. The lyric that we respond to, that speaks
> to us, is speaking also for us. It's probably not too bold an
> assessment to say that empathy is what the successful lyric
> must achieve. It is not speaking at us; as is the case with narrative. 
> Finnegan
If Western Wind is near the beginning, where is Homer--somewhat before the 
beginning?  And where is Sophocles?  Empathy begins with Hecuba baring her 
breast or Astyanx howling at Daddy's helmet or Oedipus mourning his 
daughters' future.  These teach us to be empathetic towards all of us, not 
just po' l'il me.  Which is not to knock the lyric mode, only to say that 
Aristotle's notion of catharsis, which is the essence of identification and 
empathy, was first felt in the narrative and dramatic modes.  
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From bardo at optonline.net  Wed Nov 27 00:21:24 2002
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:21:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines from Poems
References: <KBEPJACPFJBINNIIMMOECEAFCKAA.barr@mail.rochester.edu>
Message-ID: <010a01c295d4$d4240150$ec59bd18@MULDER>

you guys . . .

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Barr" <barr at mail.rochester.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 2:47 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines from Poems


> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Graham, David
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 2:33 PM
> > To: 'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines form Poems
> > >
> > > ) The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
> > > Petals on a wet, black bough.
> > >
> > > This was written by Langston Hughes.
> > __________________
> >
> > No.  Good guess, though.  It's a common mistake.  Actually the lines
were
> > written by Howard "Haiku" Hughes, younger brother of Langston.  Howard
> > Hughes was later an important figure in the Las Vegas Renaissance, along
> > with James Lyndon Johnson and Melvin B. Colson, who later worked in the
> > Nixon Administration.
>
> It's also little known that the entire structure of the poem was imposed
> after Hughes's death by Nixon himself.  The poem as we have come to know
it
> actually contains several varients from the orginal.  Most scholars
atribute
> these varients to the fact that the younger Hughes only saved two copies
of
> the poem, both handwritten on cocktail napkins.  The copy Nixon edited
into
> the form we know and love was smudged by Nixon's tumbler of J&B on the
> rocks, which he accidently set on the poem during his editing.  Recently
the
> second cocktail napkin was uncovered at the University of Buffalo, and the
> variant version was discovered:
>
>   The acceleration
>   of those
>   races on the cow;
>
>   Pickles
>   and a wet
>   black boy.
>
> Referring, of course, to Howard's idyllic rural childhood on his uncle's
> dairy farm in Hoboken, NJ.
>
> brandon
> ---
> http://bannerart.org/
> http://texturl.net/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From bardo at optonline.net  Wed Nov 27 00:13:36 2002
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:13:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines form Poems
References: <005d01c294ff$de893320$caecfea9@cator98-0053324>
Message-ID: <00e201c295d3$bd5493f0$ec59bd18@MULDER>

a) T. S. Eliot
b) Ezra Pound
c) e. e. cummings
d) S. T. Coleridge
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: nicepop 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 10:56 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Help Identify Lines form Poems


  Hello:

  Can anybody help identify Authors of these lines?

  a) We have lingered in the chambers of the sea

  By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown

  Till human voices wake us, and we drown.

  b) The apparition of these faces in the crowd;

  Petals on a wet, black bough.

  c) Women and men (both little and small)

  cared for anyone not at all

  they sowed their isn't they reaped their same

  sun moon stars rain

  d) He holds him with his skinny hand,

  'There was a ship,' quote he.

  'Hold off! Unhand me, grey-beard loon!'

  Eftsoons his hand dropt he.

  Thanks



  Phil
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From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu  Wed Nov 27 01:13:40 2002
From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:13:40 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$
In-Reply-To: <26.319cc5eb.2b157b50@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10211270040.A@muahost.valpo.edu>

My wife and I are among the parents who have agreed to participate in a 
class action suit on behalf of our son whose autism, we believe, is 
very possibly caused by the mercury used as preservative in the 
vaccines. For the last six years we have studied all the research on 
this issue, and our son has been through many tests with a number of 
doctors and labs, including regular tests which show he suffers from 
severe mercury poisoning, and no other source of mercury has been 
detected. It is a complex situation, and much of our home library 
consists of research and analysis of the issue.  Like other parents, 
our willingness to participate in the class action suit was done with 
no expectation of receiving any money, but with the hope such a suit 
will be used to bargain for further research and treatments by the 
pharmaceutical companies and greater medical community. 

--Ed

On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:35:12 EST JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 11/25/02 7:32:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
> jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:
> 
> > Lawsuits
> >  have been filed by parents across the country who are
> >  convinced that their children suffered severe neurological
> >  damage from the mercury in the vaccines. Talking to them
> >  can be heartbreaking. 
> After appropriate coaching from the trial lawyers. These
> mega-class actions are often greedy plays by "a corporation
> of attorneys' who seem to think that everything that turns
> out badly is someone's fault. 
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------



From raynrobkorea at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 27 01:40:46 2002
From: raynrobkorea at yahoo.com (RR)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:40:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Please Pass this info along...
Message-ID: <20021127064046.13061.qmail@web11404.mail.yahoo.com>


Rayn Roberts On Tour Spring 2003 to Promote New Books 

Rayn Roberts will be on an 8 week tour to promote new books in March, April, May 2003.  He looks forward working with hosts who offer features in the United States or Canada.  If you're looking for features, contact him at raynrobkorea at yahoo.com   For the last 3 years he has been teaching & writing in Asia where he coordinated "Poetry on the Peaks!" for Dialogue Among Civilizations Through Poetry .  His work has strong connections to music, spirituality, philosophy, humor, social & political issues.  His recent book, "Jazz Cocktails & Soap Box Songs" will be available in major bookstores & at feature readings.  He has appeared or is about to in Rattle, Retort, LitWit, The Sow's Ear Review, The Pedestal Magazine, Poetic Voices, Thunder Sandwich, Dream International Quarterly, Earth First!, Limestone Circle & others.  "Writer's Monthly" has a recent interview in their library section that tells a great deal more about him. This year, 2002, he appears in two anthologies by Beyond Borders Press: The Book of Hope & The World Healing Book which include new & established poets Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Rita Dove, John Kinsella plus a great voice for peace, The Dalai Lama.  Website:  www.geocities.com/raynrobkorea




www.geocities.com/raynrobkorea

 

 



---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 27 09:15:15 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:15:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "No Chance of Parole"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEEOFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


No Chance of Parole

1.
Suspicions, your main concern in gawk-eyed,
shadowy tetchiness of yet another dance school. Throw somebody

into disarray at t?te-?-t?tes of clustered fabrics in the school's
nutritional regime, wrung from scenes of carnage, matrimonial voyages

divinely beyond swoops of description,
navigable every now and then.

2.
Witlessly vulgar language hustled, blushing shabbily, new to
the job in typography, usurping eye-openers in some movie-theater megaplex.

Thunderstruck huskiness blurted out, chimed with blue eyeliner, gawkily
unnewsworthy, now near enough to hear fabrications, wrong side up in a snow flurry.

Nowhere to be found, sworn statements fly in the face of misconstruction,
blindly clutching, prying your eyes out. "Thank goodness," the soothsayer saith,

impulsively and glumly. Lying face down and taking twenty thwacks
down in the dark of the scintillating caverns, tethered inch by inch, thudding,

chewing away at the cud. Idle talk tyrannizing our system of government,
hustling and bustling, lying under oath, caviling systematically.

3.
Handpicked novices sterilizing bayonets before rustling up known
malefactors, beyond description by word of mouth.

Matrimonial fruitlessness, as is well known in syrupy fables, synthesized
baying at the moon, wet behind the ears, hovering vivacious dynamite eyes,

makeup trying to make an impression on our sullen mystifications, thus far flying off
the handle sveltely, yet meticulously. Nuts about guillotining, yet near enough

to hear indescribable scuttlebutt cavorting, feuding with nuts and bolts,
sewing up a bit of fun: "Cutthroat world. Feverish Mutating Fuddy-Duddies."

4.
Squirming, cabaret-wizened youngsters, third-rate yet fusty, wet with weather
following on in the byways of mystique. Nippy textbook diffusions, thankful belief

systems that brook no questions, no matter how mixed up we are, how dry
our throats. Fatefully no-win situations as ferryboats sound their horns

in the well-whittled fog, sounding as if, as they say. Whistled away at, wrong side up
until, thunderstruck, we scrupulously read the whys and wherefores of futuristic

dyings off, rustling in opposition to tableaux, gymnastically the worse for wear, hurt
feelings to no avail. "I'm sorry?" I said. Tsk. Vituperative taxonomies, whiz kids toiling

at sub-minimum-wage jobs, eyesight dimming, yet not much to see beyond
the median, beyond that insipid dirt bike they rode in on, their ditzy

cultural attach?, dozing away at some spa.


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Nov 27 14:13:47 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:13:47 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$
Message-ID: <11.333432d.2b16736b@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/27/02 1:14:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu writes:

> My wife and I are among the parents who have agreed to participate in a 
>  class action suit on behalf of our son whose autism, we believe, is 
>  very possibly caused by the mercury used as preservative in the 
>  vaccines.
Ed, sorry for the insensitivity of my post on this subject. Certainly the
class action suit is a valid (though costly & time-consuming) method of 
redressing a civil wrong.  
Finnegan


From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Nov 27 14:40:15 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:40:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative vs. Lyric (was: Mason plug)
Message-ID: <cb.2bd1f5b2.2b16799f@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/26/02 10:31:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> If Western Wind is near the beginning, where is Homer--somewhat before the 
>  beginning?  And where is Sophocles?  Empathy begins with Hecuba baring her 
>  breast or Astyanx howling at Daddy's helmet or Oedipus mourning his 
>  daughters' future.  These teach us to be empathetic towards all of us, not 
>  just po' l'il me.  Which is not to knock the lyric mode, only to say that 
>  Aristotle's notion of catharsis, which is the essence of identification 
and 
>  empathy, was first felt in the narrative and dramatic modes.  
>  
Well, if you want to go back to the Greek Anthology, what about
the fragments of Sappho? To contradict Aristotle, the narrative, 
or any writing framed as a story, has inherently more aesthetic distance.
The reader's psyche is drawn more forcefully and immediately
into the lyric's ambit. Empathy is a personal response not a social
one. 
And of course the lyric also has its ecstatic mode of  O-joy-is-me
(not always po' lil me). 
Finnegan


From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu  Wed Nov 27 14:57:03 2002
From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:57:03 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$
In-Reply-To: <11.333432d.2b16736b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10211271303.A@muahost.valpo.edu>

Please, no need to apologize.  I didn't take offense, and I think your 
generalization about class action suits has some legitimate basis in 
fact. I was just putting my participation in the autism suit, and the 
motivation for doing so, on the record.

--Ed


> Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu writes:
> 
> > My wife and I are among the parents who have agreed to participate in 
> a >  class action suit on behalf of our son whose autism, we believe, 
> is >  very possibly caused by the mercury used as preservative in the 
> >  vaccines. 

>Ed, sorry for the insensitivity of my post on this > subject. 
Certainly the class action suit is a valid (though costly & > 
time-consuming) method of redressing a civil wrong.  
> Finnegan _______________________________________________


--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Nov 27 21:00:47 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:00:47 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative vs. Lyric (was: Mason plug)
Message-ID: <18b.1216a6d3.2b16d2cf@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/27/2002 1:41:26 PM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> Well, if you want to go back to the Greek Anthology, what about
> the fragments of Sappho? To contradict Aristotle, the narrative, 
> or any writing framed as a story, has inherently more aesthetic distance.
> The reader's psyche is drawn more forcefully and immediately
> into the lyric's ambit. Empathy is a personal response not a social
> one. 
> And of course the lyric also has its ecstatic mode of  O-joy-is-me
> (not always po' lil me). 
> Finnegan

Now, Jim, you've already said it all.  If only fragments of Sappho survive, 
in the face of all those epics, tragedies, and comedies, doesn't it perhaps 
indicate that the lyric mode was subordinate to the other two? Even the odes 
that survive are public performances, not private.  Certainly we revere 
Sappho, just as we revere Propertius, but the roots of empathy reside 
elsewhere.
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From barr at mail.rochester.edu  Fri Nov 29 12:13:17 2002
From: barr at mail.rochester.edu (Brandon Barr)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:13:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Banner Art Collective announces winner of Buy Nothing Day contest
Message-ID: <KBEPJACPFJBINNIIMMOEMEDNCKAA.barr@mail.rochester.edu>

The Banner Art Collective's Buy Nothing Day contest received 15
banners from artists in France, the UK, and the US. Thanks to all
artists for a great and varied group of entries.

Many entries were strong, so contest officials almost decided to
split the grand prize of $0 (USD) between several entries.
Ultimately, though, the grand prize was awarded to Zebra3's
"buy-sell(f) nothing," a banner which subverts the textuality of
corporate logos to good effect.  Zebra3's banner will be featured on
the Banner Art Collective's front page (http://www.bannerart.org/)
through the holiday buying season.

Buy Nothing Day (November 29th in the US and Canada, November 30th in
Europe and elsewhere) is an annual international event held to
protest the unoffical opening day of holiday shopping.  It is
organized by the Adbusters Media Foundation
(http://www.adbusters.org/). Now in its eleventh year, Buy Nothing
Day is a 24-hour consumer fast and celebration of sustainable living.
Over one million people around the world are expected to participate.

As always, the Banner Art Collective (http://www.bannerart.org/)
continues to collect new entries for its ongoing banner art
collection.  From November 29 through February 9, the site will be
included in the Edith-Russ Site for Media Art exhibition "Total
?berzogen" (http://www.oldenburg.de/edith-russ-haus/) in Oldenburg,
Germany.  The group plans to stage several banner art "happenings"
within commercial advertising space in early 2003.



Le Banner Art Collective announce le gagnant de le "Buy Nothing Day"
concours.

Le "Buy Nothing Day" (achete rien jour) concours de le "Banner Art
Collective" a recu 15 banniere's de artistes en France, Angleterre et
Etais Unis.  On remerci tout qui a participe au concours.

Le qualite de banniere's entre dans le concours etait forte et on a
presque decide a diviser le grand prix de $0 (USD) soit 0? entre
plusiers artistes.  Finalemant on a decide le gagnant est Zebra3 avec
son banniere "buy-sell(f) nothing," un bannier qui manipule le
utilisation de plusiers logo commercial avec de results interessant.
Le banniere de Zebra3 va ete heberge sur le page d'acceuil de le
Banner Art Collective (http://www.bannerart.org/) juste au fin de
Decembre.

"Buy Nothing Day" (Novembre 29 en Etais Unis et Canada, Novembre 30
en Europe et ailleurs) est un fete international contre cette saison
de Noel qui est de plus en plus un vacances commercialise.  Il est
organise par le "Adbusters Media Foundation"
(http://www.adbusters.com/).  En existence depuis 11 ans, "Buy
Nothing Day" est un abstinence de toute qui est commercialise qui
duree 24 heures.  Plus de un million gens sont estime a participe
cette an.

Le Banner Art Collective (http://www.bannerart.org/) continue a
herberge de bannieres pour notre exposition de banner art.  Jusqu'a
fevrier 9, le site va participe dans le exposition "Total ?berzogen"
au Musee de Edith-Russ site pour Media Art
(http://www.oldenburg.de/edith-russ-haus/) en Oldenburg, Allemagne.
Nous commence a organise de banner art "evenements" qui reprend de
espace commercial en 2003.




From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Nov 29 12:51:52 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 12:51:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$
References: <26.319cc5eb.2b157b50@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00ca01c297d0$000ae160$d270fea9@j1c1k6>

> jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:
> 
> > Lawsuits
> >  have been filed by parents across the country who are
> >  convinced that their children suffered severe neurological
> >  damage from the mercury in the vaccines. Talking to them
> >  can be heartbreaking. 
> After appropriate coaching from the trial lawyers. These
> mega-class actions are often greedy plays by "a corporation
> of attorneys' who seem to think that everything that turns
> out badly is someone's fault. 
> Finnegan

But only if they can find womeone with money to blame.

--Bob G.



From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Nov 30 17:25:41 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 17:25:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative vs. Lyric (was: Mason plug)
Message-ID: <132.17d3fb3a.2b1a94e5@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/27/02 9:01:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes:

> n a message dated 11/27/2002 1:41:26 PM Central Standard Time, 
>  JforJames at aol.com writes: 
>  > Well, if you want to go back to the Greek Anthology, what about
>  > the fragments of Sappho? To contradict Aristotle, the narrative, 
>  > or any writing framed as a story, has inherently more aesthetic distance.
>  > The reader's psyche is drawn more forcefully and immediately
>  > into the lyric's ambit. Empathy is a personal response not a social
>  > one. 
>  > And of course the lyric also has its ecstatic mode of  O-joy-is-me
>  > (not always po' lil me). 
>  > Finnegan
>  
>  Now, Jim, you've already said it all.  If only fragments of Sappho 
survive, 
>  in the face of all those epics, tragedies, and comedies, doesn't it 
perhaps 
>  indicate that the lyric mode was subordinate to the other two? Even the 
odes 
> 
>  that survive are public performances, not private.  Certainly we revere 
>  Sappho, just as we revere Propertius, but the roots of empathy reside 
>  elsewhere.
>  
>  
Sam, but if we go back to your earlier examples from the narrative,
you'll see that narrative is nothing more than matrix in which the
lyric moment is embedded: 

Hecuba baring her 
>  breast or Astyanx howling at Daddy's helmet or Oedipus mourning his 
>  daughters' future. 
And a claim for textual integrity, where the Greek is concerned, is even
shakier than Shakespeare in Quarto vs. Shakespeare in Folio editions. 
I'm not convinced of the primacy of the narrative poem over
the lyric. And the immediacy of the lyric, with its demand upon
the reader to go "all-in," as the poker player's say, makes it 
superior to the narrative in terms of its claim to an empathetic 
response.
Finnegan


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Nov 30 17:53:18 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 17:53:18 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative vs. Lyric (was: Mason plug)
Message-ID: <36.32978159.2b1a9b5e@cs.com>

In a message dated 11/30/2002 4:27:47 PM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> Sam, but if we go back to your earlier examples from the narrative,
> you'll see that narrative is nothing more than matrix in which the
> lyric moment is embedded: 
> 
Homer's ashes roll over.

Primitive art is communal.  Narrative and lyric are communal by nature and 
history; lyric is not.
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