From JforJames at aol.com Fri Mar 1 12:02:14 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:02:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] The Pablo Neruda Prize Message-ID: <12e.d4a7435.29b10e16@aol.com> In a message dated 2/28/02 6:19:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > Or send just $10 to The Runaway Spoon Press. No > need to send a manuscript. You will automatically win > a first prize of $10--the amount you saved by not sending > $20 to the Nimrod International Journal. > this is not a ms. prize but your comment does beg a question... why don't more poets form collective presses, instead of pumping fees into ms. prize contests where the odds of being selected are so long. Why not put those hefty fees into a collective press. The press could by agreement publish one book every 3-5 years by each of its member poets. The selectivity of the press's list could kept high by interviewing all prospective members, having them present samples of their work...in short keeping the bar high to prevent the press from becoming a collective vanity press. Artists in many major cities have formed collective galleries that work much the same way. The prospective artist presents his/her work to a committee, he or she is either offered a place among the gallery's stable of artists or is politely turned away. Each member artist pays dues yearly to cover the gallery's costs and in return the artist is guaranteed a solo and/or group exhibit at some regular interval. Also, the work sold through the gallery helps keep the lights on, but a larger portion of the proceeds go back to the individual artist. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Fri Mar 1 12:08:02 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:08:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Deborah Keenan poem Message-ID: <123.c98ba3b.29b10f72@aol.com> LOVING MOTELS Feels American. Shameless, somehow. People I don't know love motels. People I don't know love chlorine; hundreds and thousands of people I know and don't know love motel pools, whirlpools, hot tubs, saunas. People I love, people who love me, those people love room service. The sheer intellectual weght: the idea of a phone, wires, another phone, then food arriving. Preposterous and sexual. Sexy, like those bathing suits you only wear in pools in motels in Montreal, or pools in Shawnee Mission, any pool where no one you know will walk by and know you. Loving motels means loving what has not rooted in your spirit. Loving motels is loving your very own ice bucket, and the special shapes the ice takes, is loving the shining cans of pop sinking through the melting ice, the sound aluminum makes while you pretend to sleep, is loving the hidden air conditioners and the cable TV shows, and is letting no one else, not even someone you love, use your own wrapped bar of soap, or your own little pack of ten-month-old Sanka or the sweet little hot plate that just fits the baby coffee pot. People like me and including me love motels for the white towels which remind us of something large we have lost somewhere. We love the deep shag carpet we would hate at home. We love the key, the number, the simple locks, not like home where locks are hard, needing a hip thrown against the door, the dead bolt really dead, we love the simple key with the simple plastic shape: sometimes a fish, sometimes a smooth, beige oval, sometimes, if we're lucky, a shamrock, a clover, a doll or dog. We love motels for letting us drive up, we get our own parking place automatically, then we get love- making that is not connected to our own bed's history, and besides the white towels we get white sheets which we all love and never buy. We get left alone, we get the feeling of being alone, and we need America to leave us alone in the motels. -- Deborah Keenan --------------------------------- copyright (c) 1995. From Happiness, published by Coffee House Press (http://www.coffeehousepress.org). --------------------------------- E-verse is a free service presented by Milkweed Editions (http://www.milkweed.org). Sign up a friend for e-verse at http://www.milkweed.org/3_1.html From MillB at aol.com Fri Mar 1 12:59:51 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:59:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] The Pablo Neruda Prize Message-ID: <191.3164218.29b11b97@aol.com> Sort of like a Guild? From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Mar 1 13:43:22 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 12:43:22 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Essay Message-ID: An essay ( by moi) on modern poetry essay that might be of interest: http://www.cprw.com/Lake/orders.htm From Cadaly at aol.com Fri Mar 1 14:20:06 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:20:06 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay Message-ID: <94.22457dbc.29b12e66@aol.com> And just how is a metrical line supposed to be self similar? Catherine Daly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Mar 1 15:29:39 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:29:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Pablo Neruda Prize References: <12e.d4a7435.29b10e16@aol.com> Message-ID: <00af01c1c15f$d081b5a0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> Not a bad idea, James, but I think anything with a committee is going to sink. My solution would not work, either: it is that people with a love of poetry and a little money ask poets to send them poetry, without charging a reading or entry fee. Then they publish some of the poetry they receive. Very simple. The Runaway Spoon Press has operated that way for 15 years, come September. It's been barely functioning for the past few years but should do better before the year is out. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Pablo Neruda Prize > In a message dated 2/28/02 6:19:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, > bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > > > Or send just $10 to The Runaway Spoon Press. No > > need to send a manuscript. You will automatically win > > a first prize of $10--the amount you saved by not sending > > $20 to the Nimrod International Journal. > > > this is not a ms. prize but your comment does beg a question... > why don't more poets form collective presses, instead of pumping > fees into ms. prize contests where the odds of being selected > are so long. Why not put those hefty fees into a collective press. > The press could by agreement publish one book every 3-5 years > by each of its member poets. The selectivity of the press's list could > kept high by interviewing all prospective members, having them > present samples of their work...in short keeping the bar high > to prevent the press from becoming a collective vanity press. > Artists in many major cities have formed collective galleries that > work much the same way. The prospective artist presents his/her > work to a committee, he or she is either offered a place among > the gallery's stable of artists or is politely turned away. Each member > artist pays dues yearly to cover the gallery's costs and in return the > artist is guaranteed a solo and/or group exhibit at some regular > interval. Also, the work sold through the gallery helps keep > the lights on, but a larger portion of the proceeds go back to the > individual artist. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Mar 1 16:03:09 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 15:03:09 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay In-Reply-To: <94.22457dbc.29b12e66@aol.com> Message-ID: on 3/1/02 1:20 PM, Cadaly at aol.com at Cadaly at aol.com wrote: > And just how is a metrical line supposed to be self similar? > > Catherine Daly > Without any variations, the beginning, middle, and end are rhythmically similar, and with variations they exhibit broken symmetry or, as one person put it, ?similarity with a difference.? Likewise, one line of a metrical poem is similar to all the other lines?again, with the occasional difference. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Fri Mar 1 16:42:37 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:42:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Essay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020301161927.00a8fc30@postoffice.brown.edu> Very interesting! I like the way your concepts of "form" and "tradition" mirror each other. A similar recursiveness. The fragmentation/spatialization/visualization in 20th cent. poetry might be understood as more than a simple falling away from older, deeper, more natural and more communal patterns, however. It was not just the invention of the typewriter which influenced modernist poets. As your quote from Langer underlines, poetry's form-meaning can't be limited to its "auralization", and the quantum pointillism of nature, combined with the photographic flash/speed-up of techno-industrial life, combined with the bit-processing developments in information & information theory, were all reflected in the poetry. Poetry is vision as well as sound, and 20th-cent. modernists were looking for idioms that accurately reflected how reality was visualized - juxtaposition & fragmentation were a form of realism. I'm playing devil's advocate - because I like your approach - would want to see its many implications explored. I think Americans are natural tinkerers & have to beware of proposing superficial new templates for the right way to make poetry. Equating the natural with the beautiful, or poetry with aural complexity, would seem true in MOST cases - but Langer's meaning-form may not always have obvious correlatives in physical forms of nature, and also simple/complex is an amalgam not so easy to analyze into constituent parts. My own experience in poetry-making bears out much of what you describe, regarding feedback, self-organization, & the "strange attraction" of larger stanzaic or strophic patterns. Henry At 12:43 PM 3/1/02 -0600, you wrote: >An essay ( by moi) on modern poetry essay that might be of interest: > >http://www.cprw.com/Lake/orders.htm > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jpl3 at lehigh.edu Fri Mar 1 17:22:38 2002 From: jpl3 at lehigh.edu (Joe Lucia) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:22:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay References: Message-ID: <3C7FFF2E.F2F4E633@lehigh.edu> What Paul writes below strikes me as an impoverished and arbitrary version of self-similarity for the sake of valorizing metrics over non-metered formalisms. Surely, equal levels of self-similarity and "similarity with a difference" occur in all lingusitic utterances at the level of the phoneme, the morpheme, the syllable, the syntactical unit, the statement, etc. And many forms of rule-governed or procedural writing demonstrate their own modes of self-similarity. Think of Fibonacci structures in Silliman's _Tjanting_ for instance. There self-similarity extends to repeated simple phrase forms and statements, that build to an enormous complexity. To construct an argument for the primacy of metrics in strong poetry based on a relatively facile equation of often arbitrarily denoted units with deep self-symmetry strikes me, at least, as sophistical at best, scientistic reductionism at worst. End of screed. Paul Lake wrote: > > Without any variations, the beginning, middle, and end are > rhythmically similar, and with variations they exhibit broken symmetry > or, as one person put it, ?similarity with a difference.? Likewise, > one line of a metrical poem is similar to all the other lines?again, > with the occasional difference. > > Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpl3.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 342 bytes Desc: Card for Joe Lucia URL: From jpl3 at lehigh.edu Fri Mar 1 17:27:04 2002 From: jpl3 at lehigh.edu (Joe Lucia) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:27:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay References: Message-ID: <3C800038.FED051F0@lehigh.edu> By the way, I didn't mean my previous post on Paul's comment to sound _ad hominem_, which, re-reading it, I'm afraid it does. I like the way Paul stirs the pot here. I just don't buy his arguments, though I will admit I need to give his essay a careful read (I just took a quick glance at it -- I've seem him make some of these arguments elsewhere before, I think). Paul Lake wrote: > > Without any variations, the beginning, middle, and end are > rhythmically similar, and with variations they exhibit broken symmetry > or, as one person put it, ?similarity with a difference.? Likewise, > one line of a metrical poem is similar to all the other lines?again, > with the occasional difference. > > Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpl3.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 342 bytes Desc: Card for Joe Lucia URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Mar 1 17:58:07 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:58:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay In-Reply-To: <94.22457dbc.29b12e66@aol.com> Message-ID: on 3/1/02 1:20 PM, Cadaly at aol.com at Cadaly at aol.com wrote: > And just how is a metrical line supposed to be self similar? > > Catherine Daly > Here?s another way to think of meter and self-similarity. Think of a four stanza poem, in iambic tetrameter, with an ABAB rhyme scheme. There are four feet in each line, four lines in each stanza, four stanzas in the poem. The four feet (of two syllables each) of the line alternate unstressed and stressed syllables. The rhyme scheme, with two rhymes, alternate ABAB. The poem is self-similar at different scales, from the large to the small. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Mar 1 18:01:51 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:01:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Essay Message-ID: Thanks, Henry, for your thoughtful comments. I've written another essay, which will be coming out in Southwestern Review, that takes some of the ideas in this essay further. I'll keep you posted and if it appears on-line, I'll post a link. Paul Lake From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Mar 1 18:04:20 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 17:04:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Essay Message-ID: Joe, no offense taken. But look more closely at the essay, which will answer some of your questions--especially, for instance, my discussion of Whitman's "Quicksand Years," which is a great example of self-similarity, blending theme and metrics. Paul Lake From wasanthony at yahoo.com Sat Mar 2 07:20:21 2002 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 04:20:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020302122021.77055.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Paul Lake wrote: > on 3/1/02 1:20 PM, Cadaly at aol.com at Cadaly at aol.com wrote: > > > And just how is a metrical line supposed to be self similar? > > > > Catherine Daly > > > > Here1s another way to think of meter and self-similarity. > > Think of a four stanza poem, in iambic tetrameter, with an ABAB rhyme > scheme. > > There are four feet in each line, four lines in each stanza, four > stanzas in > the poem. The four feet (of two syllables each) of the line > alternate > unstressed and stressed syllables. The rhyme scheme, with two > rhymes, > alternate ABAB. The poem is self-similar at different scales, from > the > large to the small. Fractal poetry? - Jim ===== James Cervantes: Salt River Review: Poetserv: Homepage: Readings: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball http://sports.yahoo.com From wasanthony at yahoo.com Sat Mar 2 09:37:41 2002 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 06:37:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Deborah Keenan poem In-Reply-To: <123.c98ba3b.29b10f72@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020302143741.85011.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for posting this. A nice piece of work on a subject from the realm of popular culture. Throws me back somehow to Zappa's "101 Motels" (if I have that title right). - Jim --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > LOVING MOTELS > > > Feels American. > Shameless, somehow. > People I don't know > love motels. People > I don't know love chlorine; > hundreds and thousands of people > I know and don't know > love motel pools, whirlpools, > hot tubs, saunas. > People I love, people who love > me, those people love room service. > The sheer > intellectual weght: the idea of a phone, > wires, another phone, then food arriving. > Preposterous and sexual. > Sexy, like those bathing suits > you only wear in pools > in motels in Montreal, or > pools in Shawnee Mission, any pool > where no one you know will walk by > and know you. > Loving motels means loving > what has not rooted in your spirit. > Loving motels is loving > your very own ice bucket, > and the special shapes the ice takes, > is loving the shining cans of pop > sinking through the melting ice, > the sound aluminum makes > while you pretend to sleep, > is loving the hidden air conditioners > and the cable TV shows, and is > letting no one else, not even someone > you love, use your own wrapped > bar of soap, or your own little pack > of ten-month-old Sanka > or the sweet little hot plate > that just fits the baby coffee pot. > People like me and including me > love motels for the white towels > which remind us of something large > we have lost somewhere. We love > the deep shag carpet we would hate > at home. We love the key, > the number, the simple locks, > not like home where locks are hard, > needing a hip thrown against > the door, the dead bolt really dead, > we love the simple key with the simple > plastic shape: sometimes a fish, > sometimes a smooth, beige oval, > sometimes, if we're lucky, > a shamrock, a clover, a doll or dog. > We love motels for letting us > drive up, we get our own parking place > automatically, then we get love- > making that is not connected > to our own bed's history, > and besides the white towels > we get white sheets > which we all love and never buy. > We get left alone, > we get the feeling of being alone, > and we need America to leave us > alone in the motels. > > -- Deborah Keenan > > --------------------------------- > copyright (c) 1995. From Happiness, published by Coffee House Press > (http://www.coffeehousepress.org). > --------------------------------- > > E-verse is a free service presented by Milkweed Editions > (http://www.milkweed.org). > Sign up a friend for e-verse at http://www.milkweed.org/3_1.html > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== James Cervantes: Salt River Review: Poetserv: Homepage: Readings: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball http://sports.yahoo.com From wasanthony at yahoo.com Sat Mar 2 09:53:44 2002 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 06:53:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Essay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020302145344.52604.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Paul Lake wrote: > An essay ( by moi) on modern poetry essay that might be of interest: > > http://www.cprw.com/Lake/orders.htm From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Sat Mar 2 11:36:19 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 10:36:19 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Deborah Keenan poem Message-ID: <200203021635.g22GZbw23118@mx3.mx.voyager.net> I used the Keenan poem this past week as a warm-up writing exercise for my creative writing workshop. We were talking about defamiliarization, and the poem seemed like a good example. Worked out pretty well. They had to write a poem in the form of "Loving/Hating X," looking for the strange within some familiar reality--with lots of repetition, heavy imagery, and if possible a certain faux-naive tone. For those who might be interested, Keenan's poem came from Milkweed Editions. If you go to their website you can sign up to have poems emailed to you periodically. The service is called E-Verse. That's where I discovered Keenan (a poet new to me)--and I'm guessing that's where Jim Finnegan found the poem, too. Milkweed: http://www.milkweed.org/1_0.html David Graham ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ---------- >From: jcervantes >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Deborah Keenan poem >Date: Sat, Mar 2, 2002, 8:37 AM > >Thanks for posting this. A nice piece of work on a subject from the >realm of popular culture. Throws me back somehow to Zappa's "101 >Motels" (if I have that title right). > >- Jim > >--- JforJames at aol.com wrote: >> LOVING MOTELS >> >> >> Feels American. >> Shameless, somehow. >> People I don't know >> love motels. People >> I don't know love chlorine; >> hundreds and thousands of people >> I know and don't know >> love motel pools, whirlpools, >> hot tubs, saunas. >> People I love, people who love >> me, those people love room service. >> The sheer >> intellectual weght: the idea of a phone, >> wires, another phone, then food arriving. >> Preposterous and sexual. >> Sexy, like those bathing suits >> you only wear in pools >> in motels in Montreal, or >> pools in Shawnee Mission, any pool >> where no one you know will walk by >> and know you. >> Loving motels means loving >> what has not rooted in your spirit. >> Loving motels is loving >> your very own ice bucket, >> and the special shapes the ice takes, >> is loving the shining cans of pop >> sinking through the melting ice, >> the sound aluminum makes >> while you pretend to sleep, >> is loving the hidden air conditioners >> and the cable TV shows, and is >> letting no one else, not even someone >> you love, use your own wrapped >> bar of soap, or your own little pack >> of ten-month-old Sanka >> or the sweet little hot plate >> that just fits the baby coffee pot. >> People like me and including me >> love motels for the white towels >> which remind us of something large >> we have lost somewhere. We love >> the deep shag carpet we would hate >> at home. We love the key, >> the number, the simple locks, >> not like home where locks are hard, >> needing a hip thrown against >> the door, the dead bolt really dead, >> we love the simple key with the simple >> plastic shape: sometimes a fish, >> sometimes a smooth, beige oval, >> sometimes, if we're lucky, >> a shamrock, a clover, a doll or dog. >> We love motels for letting us >> drive up, we get our own parking place >> automatically, then we get love- >> making that is not connected >> to our own bed's history, >> and besides the white towels >> we get white sheets >> which we all love and never buy. >> We get left alone, >> we get the feeling of being alone, >> and we need America to leave us >> alone in the motels. >> >> -- Deborah Keenan >> >> --------------------------------- >> copyright (c) 1995. From Happiness, published by Coffee House Press >> (http://www.coffeehousepress.org). From gudding at olemiss.edu Sun Mar 3 00:44:10 2002 From: gudding at olemiss.edu (Gudding) Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 23:44:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: John Wieners Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020302234350.02b19640@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu> >Delivered-To: po_po_pr at mail.clarkson.edu >X-Qmail-Scanner-Mail-From: junction at earthlink.net via ms2.clarkson.edu >X-Qmail-Scanner: 1.01 (Clean. Processed in 0.79556 secs) >X-Sender: junction at pop.earthlink.net >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 >Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 21:41:43 -0800 >To: BRITISH-POETS at JISCMAIL.AC.UK, poetryetc at jiscmail.ac.uk, > po_po_pr at clarkson.edu >From: Mark Weiss >Subject: John Wieners >Sender: po_po_pr-owner at clarkson.edu >Reply-To: po_po_pr at clarkson.edu > > > >po_po_pr >Mark Weiss >John Wieners died last night of a cerebral aneurism. He was one of our >best poets. > >Mark > > From rloden at concentric.net Sun Mar 3 09:17:34 2002 From: rloden at concentric.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 06:17:34 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: John Wieners In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020302234350.02b19640@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu> Message-ID: <002f01c1c2be$2b2e1660$98000140@default> Pierre Joris sent this to the POETICS list and I thought it might be welcome here. Scroll down for a poem: Sad news: John Wieners died yesterday, 1 March 2002 in Boston. He was hospitalized about a week ago when he was found unconscious some time after leaving a party. The cause of death was a brain aneurysm. Wieners was one of the great lyric voices -- with all the psychic cracks & sufferings such a stance entails -- of the second half of the past century. Here is his bio note from the "Selected Poems 1958-1984" volume (Black Sparrow Press, 1986): JOHN WIENERS was born in Milton, Mass, in 1934 and received his A.B. from Boston College in 1954. He studied at Black Mountain College under Charles Olson and Robert Duncan from 1955 to 1956. He returned to Boston where he brought out three issues of a literary magazine, Measure, over the next several years. From 1958 to 1960 he lived in San Francisco, and was an active participant in the San Francisco Poetry Renaissance movement. He returned to Boston in 1960, and divided his time between there and New York City, over the next five years. In 1965 he enrolled in the Graduate Program of the State University of New York at Buffalo, and worked as a teaching fellow. He has worked as an actor and stage manager at the Poet's Theatre, Cambridge, and has had three of his plays performed at the Judson Poet's Theater, N.Y. Since 1970 he has lived and worked in Boston, where he has been active in publishing and education cooperatives, political action committees, and the gay liberation movement. And here is a poem from his 1964 book _Ace of Pentacles_: An Anniversary of Death He too must with me wash his body, though at far distant time and over endless space take the cloth unto his loins and on his face engage in the self same rising as I do now. A cigarette lit upon his lips; would they were mine and by this present moon swear his allegiance. If he ever looks up, see the clouds and breeches in the sky, and by the stars, lend his eyes shine. What do I care for miles? or rows of friends lined up in groups? blue songs, the light's bright glare. Once he was there, now he is not; I search the empty air the candle feeds upon, and my eyes, my heart's gone blind to love and all he was capable of, the sweet patience when he put his lips to places I cannot name because they are not now the same sun shines and larks break forth from winter branches. ________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 "? melhor ser cabe?a de sardinha Tel: (518) 426-0433 do que traseiro de baleia" Fax: (518) 426-3722 Email: joris@ albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ ____ _ From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Mar 4 10:34:52 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 09:34:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay In-Reply-To: <20020302122021.77055.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: on 3/2/02 6:20 AM, jcervantes at wasanthony at yahoo.com wrote: > > --- Paul Lake wrote: >> on 3/1/02 1:20 PM, Cadaly at aol.com at Cadaly at aol.com wrote: >> >>> And just how is a metrical line supposed to be self similar? >>> >>> Catherine Daly >>> >> >> Here1s another way to think of meter and self-similarity. >> >> Think of a four stanza poem, in iambic tetrameter, with an ABAB rhyme >> scheme. >> >> There are four feet in each line, four lines in each stanza, four >> stanzas in >> the poem. The four feet (of two syllables each) of the line >> alternate >> unstressed and stressed syllables. The rhyme scheme, with two >> rhymes, >> alternate ABAB. The poem is self-similar at different scales, from >> the >> large to the small. > > Fractal poetry? > > - Jim > > > ===== > James Cervantes: > Salt River Review: > Poetserv: > Homepage: > > Readings: > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball > http://sports.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Yep. Paul From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Mar 4 16:18:28 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:18:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Vladimir Holan, "Snow" Message-ID: Snow The snow began to fall at midnight. And it's true that the best place to sit is in the kitchen, even if it's the kitchen of insomnia. It's warm there, you fix some food, drink wine and look out the window into the familiar eternity. Why should you worry whether birth and death are only two points, when life is not a straight line after all. Why should you torture yourself staring at the calendar and wondering how much is at stake. And why should you admit you have no money to buy Saskia a pair of slippers? And why should you boast that you suffer more than others. Even if there were no silence on earth, that snow would have dreamed it up. You're alone. As few gestures as possible. Nothing for show. --Vladimir Holan, tr. C.G Hanzlicek & Dana Habova Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Cadaly at aol.com Mon Mar 4 18:53:06 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 18:53:06 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay Message-ID: <113.d87337f.29b562e2@aol.com> Actually, the rhyme has nothing to do with the metrical self-similarity; for metrical self similarity to pertain, the number of beats per foot must evenly divide the number of feet per line, number of lines per stanza, number of stanzas per poem, number of poems per cycle. I would guess caesura would help. Stressed syllables would have match up with stressed lines, etc. Thus, for metrical self-similarity, with an iambic foot, the last half of each line would have to be emphasized, the closing of each stanza, the close of each poem, the end of the cycle. Hardly any poetry is self-similar metrically. Certainly no poetry using traditional meters written before the idea of metrical self-similarity would be self-similar. Be well, Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony at yahoo.com Mon Mar 4 19:04:53 2002 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:04:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay In-Reply-To: <113.d87337f.29b562e2@aol.com> Message-ID: <20020305000453.98836.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> Sounds like a challenge to me. Anyone want to meet here at noon a month from now and present a fractically-correct poem? - Jim --- Cadaly at aol.com wrote: > Actually, the rhyme has nothing to do with the metrical > self-similarity; for > metrical self similarity to pertain, the number of beats per foot > must evenly > divide the number of feet per line, number of lines per stanza, > number of > stanzas per poem, number of poems per cycle. I would guess caesura > would > help. > > Stressed syllables would have match up with stressed lines, etc. > Thus, for > metrical self-similarity, with an iambic foot, the last half of each > line > would have to be emphasized, the closing of each stanza, the close of > each > poem, the end of the cycle. > > Hardly any poetry is self-similar metrically. Certainly no poetry > using > traditional meters written before the idea of metrical > self-similarity would > be self-similar. > > Be well, > Catherine > ===== James Cervantes: Salt River Review: Poetserv: Homepage: Readings: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball http://sports.yahoo.com From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Mon Mar 4 19:07:34 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 19:07:34 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay Message-ID: <16.1b2d6621.29b56646@aol.com> In a message dated 3/4/2002 7:06:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, wasanthony at yahoo.com writes: > Anyone want to meet here at noon a > month from now and present a fractically-correct poem? > > I'd settle for a practically correct poem. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Robtberner at aol.com Mon Mar 4 21:26:10 2002 From: Robtberner at aol.com (Robtberner at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 21:26:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay Message-ID: <176.4844c5e.29b586c2@aol.com> why not an im-practically correct poem? From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Mar 5 07:57:42 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 07:57:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay In-Reply-To: <113.d87337f.29b562e2@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020305073839.00aa6120@postoffice.brown.edu> The way I understood it, a complete line generates another complete line roughly similar; a stanza generates a group of similar stanzas; and this reflexive process has a momentum different from completely "free" verse. I don't know that the argument was for strict or exact self-similarity. You can't prove that this kind of ordered poetry is BETTER than free verse. After a few decades of exploration of the un-noticed formal complexities of what previously was thought of as free verse, such as in Paul's Whitman example, I suppose there will be a nostalgic return to the anarchic leaps of 20th cent. "spatialized" typewriter poetry. But the essay recognizes some compositional processes that are ignored by those for whom the quandary of "metrics" in contemporary Babel is just too arcane & impossible; it shows that a metrical practice could evolve without the use of a museum-quality template. Not required by any means - but possible to do, and maybe already there without our noticing. Henry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Mar 5 08:51:45 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:51:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay Message-ID: <11b.cac85e9.29b62771@cs.com> I'd say that cummings, who was a serious painter, was much more visually oriented than Williams, and he was probably the first poet (other than Don Marquis) to fully exploit the technology of the typewriter. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daisyf1 at juno.com Tue Mar 5 11:26:13 2002 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:26:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA Mail Message-ID: <20020305.112613.-341143.0.daisyf1@juno.com> Hi--Did you all get a postcard from the NEA saying if you're sending mail to the NEA (ie., applying for the literature fellowships, deadline March 11) it's best to send it through some other means than U.S. Postal service as regular first class and priority mail is delayed and irradiated (destroys CDS/tapes, etc) etc. for the forseeable future? And if so, how will you be sending your applications in--via UPS? FedEx? Which do you think is best? Daisy From gudding at olemiss.edu Tue Mar 5 11:38:27 2002 From: gudding at olemiss.edu (Gudding) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 10:38:27 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA Mail In-Reply-To: <20020305.112613.-341143.0.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020305103759.02b42a00@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu> Daisy, I've had terrible luck with UPS. For me, it's FEDEX or nothing. Gabe At 11:26 AM 3/5/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Hi--Did you all get a postcard from the NEA saying if you're sending mail >to the NEA (ie., applying for the literature fellowships, deadline March >11) it's best to send it through some other means than U.S. Postal >service as regular first class and priority mail is delayed and >irradiated (destroys CDS/tapes, etc) etc. for the forseeable future? And >if so, how will you be sending your applications in--via UPS? FedEx? >Which do you think is best? Daisy >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Tue Mar 5 11:52:20 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 11:52:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NEA Mail Message-ID: <89.14700a6b.29b651c4@aol.com> I checked just now with NEA. The valedection against romancing the U.S. Post Office was meant for organizations only. As for individual applicants, we (all 12 million of us) may use any means we like, including in addition to the US Post Office(though this apparently runs contrary to the application guidelines)any overnight carrier we like. Further, they will *go by* postmark solely, not delivery date, as to all materials, so delay is no object. If you need further clarification, you should call the Literature staff at 202-682-5428. Jeffrey In a message dated Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:30:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, Daisy Fried writes: > Hi--Did you all get a postcard from the NEA saying if you're sending mail > to the NEA (ie., applying for the literature fellowships, deadline March > 11) it's best to send it through some other means than U.S. Postal > service as regular first class and priority mail is delayed and > irradiated (destroys CDS/tapes, etc) etc. for the forseeable future? And > if so, how will you be sending your applications in--via UPS? FedEx? > Which do you think is best? Daisy > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Tue Mar 5 16:37:17 2002 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 13:37:17 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vladimir Holan Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020305133715.00ee9c38@medicine.nodak.edu> Dear Halvard, Many thanks for putting the translation of Holan's "Snow" on the list. One of the great benefits of this list is waking up to voices you've never heard before. "Snow" led me to the "artofeurope" page for Holan with several translations (www.artofeurope.com/holan/index.html). "A Night with Hamlet" will take quite a while to stumble through, but "She Asked You" was a little like Proust's madeleine -- all of a sudden I was poignantly back to my youth again. I enclose the translation below for others' enjoyment. I wish I knew how to pronounce the original Czech. She Asked You A girl asked you: What is poetry? You wanted to say to her: You are too, ah yes, you are and that in fear and wonder, which prove the miracle, I'm jealous of your beauty's ripeness, and because I can't kiss you nor sleep with you, and because I have nothing and whoever has nothing to give must sing... But you didn't say it, you were silent and she didn't hear the song. Vladimir Holan Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu P. S. Given Holan's often reclusive and unhappy life (according to what I can glean from the web), do you know when in his career he wrote "Snow" and "She Asked You"? From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Mar 5 17:00:02 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 17:00:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vladimir Holan In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020305133715.00ee9c38@medicine.nodak.edu> Message-ID: And thanks to you for the link, Richard. And here, just fyi, is the way Hanzlicek and Habova handle "She Asked You." Their translations, btw, are in a collection called "Mirroring: Selected Poems of Vladimir Holan" (Wesleyan Univ. Press, '85). She Asked You A young girl asked you: What is poetry? You wanted to tell her: Among other things, it's the fact that you are, oh yes, the fact that you are, and in my fear and wonder, which are witnessing a miracle, I'm painfully jealous of your ripe beauty, and jealous that I must not kiss you and I must not sleep with you, and that I have nothing, and he who has nothing to give must sing . . . But you didn't tell her this, you said nothing and she didn't hear you singing . . . --Vladimir Holan, tr. Hanzlicek & Habova Hal { Dear Halvard, { { Many thanks for putting the translation of Holan's "Snow" { on the list. One of the great benefits of this list is { waking up to voices you've never heard before. "Snow" { led me to the "artofeurope" page for Holan with several { translations (www.artofeurope.com/holan/index.html). { "A Night with Hamlet" will take quite a while to stumble { through, but "She Asked You" was a little like Proust's { madeleine -- all of a sudden I was poignantly back to my { youth again. I enclose the translation below for others' { enjoyment. I wish I knew how to pronounce the original { Czech. { { She Asked You { { A girl asked you: What is poetry? { You wanted to say to her: You are too, ah yes, you are { and that in fear and wonder, { which prove the miracle, { I'm jealous of your beauty's ripeness, { and because I can't kiss you nor sleep with you, { and because I have nothing and whoever has nothing to give { must sing... { { But you didn't say it, you were silent { and she didn't hear the song. { { Vladimir Holan { { { Richard W. Wilsnack { rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu { { P. S. Given Holan's often reclusive and unhappy life (according { to what I can glean from the web), do you know when in his career { he wrote "Snow" and "She Asked You"? { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From Cadaly at aol.com Tue Mar 5 19:57:12 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 19:57:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay Message-ID: <12a.d4b7b54.29b6c368@aol.com> well, actually there would be other types of self-similarity, and these would be more like projective verse or fugue poetry, but it is still essentially a prescriptive project for example, "My Favorite Things" by Coltrane only has one level of self-similarity -- does it have another if it is one of one's favorite things? What about those Robert Duncan poems? Poems with certain types of relationships to their epigraphs? a logical self-similarity, of the kind that Fulton seems to want, is far more difficult to imagine creative translations? Be well, practically intransigent Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Tue Mar 5 20:35:59 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 20:35:59 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay Message-ID: <17e.496f038.29b6cc7f@aol.com> In a message dated 3/5/2002 7:58:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, Cadaly at aol.com writes: > for example, "My Favorite Things" by Coltrane only has one level of > self-similarity (Self-similarity of the other self?) But two, actually, as Coltrane, at each of the changes, reinvisioned the dominant (the 5th note of the scale implied by any chord/triad) as the tonic, or root tone, meaning he stood the triad on its head, meaning what for everybody else had always been the first note of the implied chord suddenly transported a fifth higher. Then maybe even three levels of self-similarity here, as Coltrane rarely ever alit on the *new* root, third or fifth, but rather riffed among the upper harmonics. This is why his solos sound at once completely attenuated and oddly grounded. This is, in my opinion, the same sort of complex associative searching and finding that any old simply stunningly imaginative image trumpets but, you see, I'm far more at home -- to say nothing of interested -- in talking about creative process that informs the form than the process that becomes the form, though maybe someone far better versed than I can find the logical self-similarity in the argument. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Mar 5 21:00:55 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:00:55 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] New(s) from Zoo Press, 3/5/02 Message-ID: <15a.9f1a818.29b6d257@aol.com> Subj: New(s) from Zoo Press, 3/5/02 Date: 3/5/02 11:47:28 AM Eastern Standard Time From: editors at zoopress.org (Zoo Press) To: zoo Dear Friends, Colleagues, Writers and Readers, 1) *** FOR A LIMITED TIME *** receive the full collection of books published in our first year - all 11 titles - for $100 + $10 s/h (40% off cover price) and help support the Zoo! See our Web site for details: http://www.zoopress.org/zoo_program.html or call 800-755-1105. 2) The 2001 Kenyon Review Prize in Poetry winner, Beth Ann Fennelly's OPEN HOUSE (http://zoopress.org/Fennelly.html), and Scott Cairns' PHILOKALIA: NEW & SELECTED POEMS (http://zoopress.org/Cairns.html) will be published on April 1st, 2002. Please order from your favorite bookstore or call 800-755-1105 if you are a retailer, wholesaler or library. 3) The deadline for The Kenyon Review Prize in Poetry for a First Book is April 15th, 2002. Please see our Web site for details: http://www.zoopress.org/zoo_springcontest.html. 4) The inaugural Paris Review Prize in Poetry volume, Priscilla Becker's INTERNAL WEST (http://zoopress.org/Becker.html) is now available after a brief delay. Please order from your favorite bookstore or call 800-755-1105 if you are a retailer, wholesaler or library. -- ZOO PRESS PO Box 22990 | Lincoln, NE 68542 | (402) 770-8104 | FAX (402) 328-2803 editors at zoopress.org | http://www.zoopress.org Distributed to the Trade by the University of Nebraska Press http://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/ ADVISORY BOARD Susan Aizenberg, Edward Albee, David Baker, Erin Belieu, Marvin Bell, Lucie Brock-Broido, Alfred Corn, Stanley Fish, Jonathan Galassi, Albert Goldbarth, William Harmon, Anthony Hecht, Scott Hightower, Edward Hirsch, Jane Hirshfield, Art Homer, Richard Howard, Mark Jarman, David Lehman, Herbert Leibowitz, Campbell McGrath, Heather McHugh, Andrew Motion, Eric Ormsby, Jay Parini, George Plimpton, Marie Ponsot, Alice Quinn, James Raimes, Bin Ramke, Hilda Raz, Liam Rector, Michael Ryan, Sherod Santos, Grace Schulman, David St. John, William Wadsworth and C. Dale Young * Email & the internet make small publishing more possible, viable and important than ever. We appreciate your willingness to receive regular updates; however, if you'd like to be removed please respond to this message with the subject "remove". Thanks again from all of us at Zoo Press! * ------ End of Forwarded Message From JforJames at aol.com Tue Mar 5 21:10:47 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:10:47 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Norton News Message-ID: From: Poetry at WWNORTON.com (Poetry) To: poetry at wwnorton.biglist.com ('poetry at wwnorton.biglist.com') http://www.nortonpoets.com ----------- **New in the Poet's Workshop** Reading: Preparing the Mind for Possibilities and the Soul for Tenderness an essay by Stephen Dunn Poetry readings near you: Visit our author appearances page to find out which poets are reading in your neighborhood. **Highlights coming this April** New collections from Linda Pastan and Gerald Stern Stanley Kunitz's Collected Poems in paperback A first novel by poet James Lasdun **Poem of the Month: "A Postmortem Guide" by Stephen Dunn** (For my eulogist, in advance) Do not praise me for my exceptional serenity. Can't you see I've turned away from the large excitements, and have accepted all the troubles? Go down to the old cemetery; you'll see there's nothing definitive to be said. The dead once were all kinds-- boundary breakers and scalawags, martyrs of the flesh, and so many dumb bunnies of duty, unbearably nice. I've been a little of each. And, please, resist the temptation of speaking about virtue. The seldom-tempted are too fond of that word, the small- spirited, the unburdened. Know that I've admired in others only the fraught straining to be good. Adam's my man and Eve's not to blame. He bit in; it made no sense to stop. Still, for accuracy's sake you might say I often stopped, that I rarely went as far as I dreamed. And since you know my hardships, understand they're mere bump and setback against history's horror. Remind those seated, perhaps weeping, how obscene it is for some of us to complain. Tell them I had second chances. I knew joy. I was burned by books early and kept sidling up to the flame. Tell them that at the end I had no need for God, who'd become just a story I once loved, one of many with concealments and late-night rescues, high sentence and pomp. The truth is I learned to live without hope as well as I could, almost happily, in the despoiled and radiant snow. You who are one of them, say that I loved my companions most of all. In all sincerity, say they provided a better way to be alone. ? 2001 by Stephen Dunn From JforJames at aol.com Tue Mar 5 21:34:32 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 21:34:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] John Wieners poem Message-ID: The Waning of the Harvest Moon No flowers now to wear at Sunset. Autumn and the rain. Dress in blue. For the descent. Dogs bark at the gate. Go down daughter my soul heavy with the memory of heaven. It is time for famine and empty altars. We ask your leave for by your going we gain spring again. No lights glimmer in the box. I want to go out and rob a grocery store. Hunger. My legs ache. Who will feed us. Miles more to go. Secrets yet unread. Dogs bark in my ears. My man lost. My soul a jangle of lost connections. Who will plug in the light at autumn. When all men are alone. Down. And further yet to go. Words gone from my mouth. Speechless in the tide. [from _Ace of Pentacles_ (1964)] From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Mar 5 22:03:46 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:03:46 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay Message-ID: <18b.4542cf2.29b6e112@cs.com> In a message dated 3/5/2002 6:58:40 PM Central Standard Time, Cadaly at aol.com writes: > "My Favorite Things" by Coltrane only has one level of self-similarity -- > does it have another if it is one of one's favorite things? I prefer the Lerner & Lowe version, sung by Julie Andrews. It's got gobs of self-similarity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Mar 5 22:04:52 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 22:04:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Norton News Message-ID: <161.9d923b1.29b6e154@cs.com> In a message dated 3/5/2002 8:12:39 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > ----------- > **New in the Poet's Workshop** > Reading: Preparing the Mind for Possibilities and the Soul for Tenderness > an essay by Stephen Dunn > > This I gotta see! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Cadaly at aol.com Tue Mar 5 23:00:58 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 23:00:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay Message-ID: <196.34501d1.29b6ee7a@aol.com> 1) my favorite things by john coltrane, 1960,'s similarity to its source, my favorite things by rogers and hammerstein, sometime in the 50s, is the first scale of this "nonmetrical" self similarity, one of "motif" or whatever it is 2) whatever it was that Jeffrey said could be a second scale and it would be one that a version of mft by aerosmith would not have 3) the julie andrews screen performance of the original r&h version in 1965 would not display self similarity of motif relative to either coltrane or the stage version in the same way, even if it was rescored 4) each performance of coltrane's mft would display the same dependence on conditions as each live performance of my favorite things original score catherine (lerner & lowe?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Mar 5 23:05:12 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 23:05:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay Message-ID: <170.9d69a68.29b6ef78@cs.com> In a message dated 3/5/2002 10:02:22 PM Central Standard Time, Cadaly at aol.com writes: > catherine (lerner & Omigod, was it Rodgers and Hammerstein? I, show-tune Sam, am contrite! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Wed Mar 6 01:51:39 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 23:51:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay References: <11b.cac85e9.29b62771@cs.com> Message-ID: <3C85BC6C.7AA905F2@earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Mar 6 07:53:36 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 07:53:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay In-Reply-To: <196.34501d1.29b6ee7a@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020306073651.00aa7a00@postoffice.brown.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Wed Mar 6 08:03:49 2002 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (Michael Magee) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:03:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Norton News In-Reply-To: <161.9d923b1.29b6e154@cs.com> from "Rsgwynn1@cs.com" at Mar 5, 2002 10:04:52 pm Message-ID: <200203061303.IAA14935@dept.english.upenn.edu> > > **New in the Poet's Workshop** > > Reading: Preparing the Mind for Possibilities and the Soul for Tenderness > > an essay by Stephen Dunn > > Step 1: salt soul. Step 2: pound soul until tender. -m. From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Mar 6 09:31:57 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:31:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Norton News In-Reply-To: <200203061303.IAA14935@dept.english.upenn.edu> Message-ID: { > > **New in the Poet's Workshop** { > > Reading: Preparing the Mind for Possibilities and the Soul for Tenderness { > > an essay by Stephen Dunn { > > { { Step 1: salt soul. { Step 2: pound soul until tender. { { -m. And a few millenia of marination never hurts. Hal "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy." --Robert Ashley Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Robtberner at aol.com Wed Mar 6 09:36:41 2002 From: Robtberner at aol.com (Robtberner at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 09:36:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Norton News Message-ID: <4b.19638f92.29b78379@aol.com> recipe needs a step 3: sautee in butter until rare robert berner From DICK at watson.ibm.com Wed Mar 6 09:46:42 2002 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 02 09:46:42 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] tabasco Message-ID: <200203061446.g26EkuM38318@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com> Sam Gwynn wrote: >> >> >>> ----------- >>> **New in the Poet's Workshop** >>> Reading: Preparing the Mind for Possibilities and the Soul for Tenderness >>> an essay by Stephen Dunn >>> >>> >> >>This I gotta see! >> This list has been a little bland the last several weeks. Thanks to Sam for bringing a little tabasco back. Richard From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Mar 6 10:17:46 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 10:17:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gustaf Sobin, "A Blue-Obliterative" Message-ID: A Blue-Obliterative balustrades, and--just beyond--a blue- obliterative, taut to the haul of its chopped currents. 'screen,' they'd called it, those scriptless wastes, there where the parched lips, irremediable, had gone un- lettered. whose token glows, you'd ask? what word with- stands the sheer acidity of such an assimilation? you, your knuckles coiled a- bout some illusory guardrail, utter the silence that, alone, still echoes. --Gustaf Sobin Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Mar 6 12:55:44 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 12:55:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay Message-ID: <121.d0ad906.29b7b220@cs.com> In a message dated 3/6/2002 1:48:28 AM Central Standard Time, odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes: > archy and mehitabel! I love them. I confess cummings gets to me a little > bit after 400 pp or so (note to self: not always a Good Idea to read > Complete collections all the way through) but Marquis just gets better > every year I read him (I think my dad handed me a copy when I was 13 or > so). Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > I was just reading Jarrell on cummings. As usual, he saw his strengths and weaknesses with a clear eye but gave him much more serious attention than many other critics. For my money, I'd put cummings ahead of Williams in my personal pantheon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Cadaly at aol.com Wed Mar 6 13:01:37 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 13:01:37 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay Message-ID: <9.2441528f.29b7b381@aol.com> Self-similarity -- as an idea applied to poetry -- is a politically charged one; yet I have no idea why it would be limited to metrics. Still, I think, even if applied to other aspects of poetry, it "describes" roads which are "yet to be taken". Rgds, Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Robtberner at aol.com Wed Mar 6 13:31:44 2002 From: Robtberner at aol.com (Robtberner at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 13:31:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re.: Poems and Other Stuff Message-ID: <108.e66b138.29b7ba90@aol.com> Dear New-Poetry Browsers, About a month ago, a friend got me connected with the New-Poetry network. Ah, I thought. I'll get to read all kinds of new poems by people I already know and stuff from poets I've never read before. Great. But most of what has come across my monitor is what I would call wheel-spinning theoretical stuff on poetics, prosody, and "self-similar" poetry. Come on, people. This is stuff for graduate seminars and academic journals. If I wanted to read such stuff--and I usually don't--that's where I'd go. But I'd much rather read your poems. Why not put THEM on the web? And just to put my own stuff where my gob is, there follow two of mine. They are in response to Lawson F. Inada's 1997 collection, Drawing The Line. I hope this starts a trend. Yours for more poems and less lit-crit on the net, Robert Berner Two Bagatelles For Lawson Inada 1. Reading Your New Book Reading your new book, I was excited as a kid who got just what he wanted for Christmas. Couldn't wait to try it out. 2. Ink On My Little Finger Never got an A in penmanship-- endless thousands of loops and circles always slanting in- correctly, ink all over my little finger. I'm a south- paw, and the Palmer Method was designed for right- handers. (c) 2002 by Robert Berner From Cadaly at aol.com Wed Mar 6 14:31:17 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:31:17 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re.: Poems and Other Stuff Message-ID: Dear Robert Berner: Thank you for posting your poems; it is quite generous for you to use their "first electronic rights" in this open spirit of sharing. Posting one's own work, and work by others under copyright, to listservs is often problematic. Some publishers won't print them if they haven't been printed before they are uploaded and sent. Others will ask for money or for removal of the poem from the list archive. Cummings' publisher is particularly stubborn on this point. Alan Sondheim became pretty much the only poet posting poems on POETICS, and a lot of people dislike him for it (not me). I promise you you would not enjoy reading many of my poems. I actively work to limit my postings on lists and to limit the number of "electronic publishing promos" I send as well. I am a veteran of lists which have ceased to be discussion forums. This list has remained one, and the credit goes to the moderators as well as Sam and others for keeping the conversation going in the dull parts. I enjoy reading Misters Gwynn and Gould here, and in their poems, ample samples of which are elsewhere online, in those ezine thingies :) Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net P.S. An ezine editor is currently pressing me for a "free verse" poem to accompany the two poems I sent him that he is also publishing. ??? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Mar 6 14:50:11 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2002 14:50:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re.: Poems and Other Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020306144337.00aab190@postoffice.brown.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Mar 6 17:43:12 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:43:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re.: Poems and Other Stuff Message-ID: <20020306224312.8489036F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From TerryP17 at aol.com Thu Mar 7 12:14:44 2002 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 12:14:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Essay Message-ID: <154.a15b549.29b8fa04@aol.com> Catherine: You wrote: <> Why is it politically charged? --Terry Ponick From JforJames at aol.com Thu Mar 7 18:10:31 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 18:10:31 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re.: Poems and Other Stuff Message-ID: In a message dated 3/6/02 1:32:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, Robtberner at aol.com writes: > But most of what has come across my monitor is what I would call > wheel-spinning theoretical stuff on poetics, prosody, and "self-similar" > poetry. > Come on, people. This is stuff for graduate seminars and academic > journals. If I wanted to read such stuff--and I usually don't--that's where > I'd go. > But I'd much rather read your poems. Robert, there's room in this e-cafe for many kinds of coversation...personally I enjoy hearing smart "theorical stuff"...and it seems to me (thanks in particular to Hal) a good number of contemporary poems appear in my inbox. The conversational interests of the list members define what the list is ultimately all about...but the information page at http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry will give you some idea of why this list came into being: Finnegan From sondheim at panix.com Thu Mar 7 20:13:38 2002 From: sondheim at panix.com (Alan Sondheim) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:13:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #691 - 6 msgs In-Reply-To: <200203071701.g27H17Z30922@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: I feel I want to justify my production/dissemination on Poetics - which is not as full as that on Cybermind or Wryting (both lists I co-moderated and co-founded; the latter has a lot of work posted daily). There are a few people - Mez, nn, for two - who work with the protocols/ programs/jargon of the Net - my own work fits in that category; it's pro- duction ranges from catalyst-programs I write to "debris" I pick up as a residue of unix/linux commands. This work - and as far as I know, the work of Mez and nn - remains net- bound; there are no publishers beating down our doors. I'd say the same for people on Wryting like Johan Meskins - fantastic work. To the extent it's netbound and references, stems from, virtual subjects and processes, the email list is really the only form of dissemination. It's on my/our webpages, but it remains dead on the pages in a way - and I'd rather it dead, quite honestly, in books with all their intimacy. All of us are exploring the future; we're doing a form of writing con- structed, as much as anything, from ghosts, live processes. The work lies between webart, flashwork, and classical text production ("writing"). I edited an issue of American Book Review a while ago on this, called it "codework" from discussions w/ McKenzie Wark. There were articles by Wark, Florian Cramer, Beatrice Beaubien, others. I think of computers beginning to display themselves through the work of their others, the rest of us. It's a kind of sensitivity. There's also Kenji Siratori by the way. Sometimes we collaborate. On Poetics, I send my work as a minimum. Chris Alexander, who is one of the moderators, published a small hand-made book in an edition of perhaps 40, of mine, a while ago. He likes the work, is supportive. Without the Net, I'd be non-existent. With the Net, I'm hardly there, in any case - Alan Internet text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim at panix.com From Robtberner at aol.com Fri Mar 8 09:33:36 2002 From: Robtberner at aol.com (Robtberner at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:33:36 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re.: Poems and Other Stuff Message-ID: <60.1c26e06d.29ba25c0@aol.com> James--Okay by me, what you prefer. But I'll take poems over lit-crit every time. Robert Berner From Robtberner at aol.com Fri Mar 8 09:40:11 2002 From: Robtberner at aol.com (Robtberner at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:40:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #691 - 6 msgs Message-ID: Alan Sondheim writes that "without the Net, I'd be non-existent." Is this not sad? And is this not a cyber-version of "outside the Church there is no salvation?" Thus, is not the Net, and the computer, the most recent idol of the marketplace? I'd rather be a pagan suckled in a creed outworn. Robert Berner From Robtberner at aol.com Fri Mar 8 09:48:53 2002 From: Robtberner at aol.com (Robtberner at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:48:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: In response to... Message-ID: <3a.232d9921.29ba2955@aol.com> Hey, y'all, This is more like what I had in mind, generating poems . Or, in another manner, I'll show you a poem I like, you show me one you like. That's fair, isn't it? Robert Berner -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: MertTShirt at aol.com Subject: In response to... Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 09:17:05 EST Size: 712 URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Mar 8 11:58:00 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 11:58:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Marilyn Chin poem Message-ID: <194.369843a.29ba4798@aol.com> THE GILDED CANGUE (Phoenix series #2/3) For moments we forget the sound her lotus feet make, the scurry of a fawn, delicate and hesitant. The pain in her small hooves pursed her lips, a secret she never told us. When we ventured into her innermost room we found her warm impression coiled as a serial conch on the silken divan and a pinkness raw as the frail life that dwelled within. In dream we saw her fly into the sky and dance on the bridge of magpies-- nobody to restrain her on earth, nobody to call her back in the courtyard, at the watermargin. What is poetry if it could forget the meaning of her life? Her long hair let go only once on that breezy terrace, a smile so faint as to mock her own death. All suffering forestalled freedom. The gilded cangue opened, her final escape-- now, you and I must descend. -- Marilyn Chin ------------------------------------------------ Copyright 1993 by Marilyn Chin. From "The Phoenix Gone, The Terrace Empty," published by Milkweed Editions (www.milkweed.org). Marilyn Chin is touring extensively this spring. Check out her schedule at http://www.milkweed.org/3_4.html ------------------------------------------------ From snospx at silcom.com Fri Mar 8 13:15:56 2002 From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:15:56 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #692 - 7 msgs In-Reply-To: <200203081700.g28H03Z06100@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020308101556.00803210@snowcrest.net> At 12:00 PM 3/8/02 -0500, Robert Berner wrote: Hey, y'all, This is more like what I had in mind, generating poems . Or, in another manner, I'll show you a poem I like, you show me one you like. That's fair, isn't it? --------------- Cyberspace teems with lists that do just that. This is a different sort of list, why must it be subverted into a duplicate of all the others displaying poems endlessly? This is mainly a "talk-about-it" list with an occasional poem sent in when relevant. Please read the "protocols" (That's fair, isn't it?). B. From Robtberner at aol.com Fri Mar 8 13:52:17 2002 From: Robtberner at aol.com (Robtberner at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 13:52:17 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #692 - 7 msgs Message-ID: B.: Fair is, indeed, fair, and my intention was/is not to subvert "the list" into a "duplicate of all the others displaying poems endlessly." And in order to "read the 'protocols'," I hit the new-poetry website, but it has no attachment for "protocols."Which leaves me pretty much where I started. Could you or someone else in the list please send me directions for calling up the protocols. Thanks for responding. Robert Berner From Cadaly at aol.com Fri Mar 8 20:20:30 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:20:30 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #691 - 6 msgs Message-ID: <13e.a9d64d6.29babd5e@aol.com> You've gotta read his work!!! I think it is great, but then I work with computers, and I could say the same thing about the 'net as Alan just said, except it isn't as _essential_ to _some_ of my poems. Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmcvay at patriot.net Fri Mar 8 22:53:52 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 22:53:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re.: Poems and Other Stuff In-Reply-To: <60.1c26e06d.29ba25c0@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Robert Berner, Really, sometimes talking about how we do what we do is organic to the process of doing what we do. For example, if our colleague Paul Lake, paladin of pentameter with his flocking computer "boids," were not here posting links to his articles, who would I have to disagree with about poetry? (very big evil grin, performed with tongue in cheek) I will even go so far as to call the whole thing "theory," that word that makes stout men cringe in their boots, and say that further, I also disagree with Alan Sondheim about the primacy and importance of the Net, but I'm glad that both poets are willing to talk here about the theory/how of what they do. It gives me something to think about. I like to think. Gwyn (After great form, a painful feeling comes) --- "We share half our genome with the banana. This is more evident in some of my acquaintances than others." Sir Robert May, President of the Royal Society of London From mbales at cybergate.net Sat Mar 9 07:27:28 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 07:27:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #691 - 6 msgs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C89B960.13423.1C917EA3@localhost> > Alan Sondheim writes that "without the Net, I'd be non-existent." Is > this not sad? And is this not a cyber-version of "outside the Church there > is no salvation?" Thus, is not the Net, and the computer, the most recent > idol of the marketplace? > I'd rather be a pagan suckled in a creed outworn. > Robert Berner Just so. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From barr at mail.rochester.edu Sat Mar 9 11:28:40 2002 From: barr at mail.rochester.edu (Brandon Thomas Barr) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 11:28:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #691 - 6 msgs In-Reply-To: <3C89B960.13423.1C917EA3@localhost> Message-ID: I think you misunderstand. Alan, I think, is stating that without the distribution network provided by the internet, he wouldn't be able to either complete the work he finds vital (since much of it examines the language of online identity and, indeed, online textual constructions as simple as email headers and line noise) or distribute it to an audience. His dependence on the net as an artist is not sad; it is a story of the relation between poeisis and medium, much like Blake. Without the printing process he himself developed and promoted, Blake wouldn't have been able to create the amazing, genre-blending work that he did. His technological choice also pinned him in, resulting in the lack of distribution of his work in the manner he orginally planned and the miscategorization of him as simply a text-based poet or as a painter. Poets and artists often exist in the possibilities and limits of technology. It's nothing new, and it is definitely not sad. Brandon Barr University of Rochester On Sat, 9 Mar 2002, Marcus Bales wrote: > > Alan Sondheim writes that "without the Net, I'd be non-existent." Is > > this not sad? And is this not a cyber-version of "outside the Church there > > is no salvation?" Thus, is not the Net, and the computer, the most recent > > idol of the marketplace? > > I'd rather be a pagan suckled in a creed outworn. > > Robert Berner > > Just so. > > > Marcus Bales > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From snospx at silcom.com Sat Mar 9 12:35:14 2002 From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 09:35:14 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #693 - 6 msgs In-Reply-To: <200203091701.g29H16Z13222@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020309093514.007efc20@snowcrest.net> At 12:01 PM 3/9/02 -0500, Robert Berner wrote: >Could you or someone else in the list please send me directions for calling up the >protocols. -- just a term (not actually used) pointing to the description of the purposes of the group that one receives when joining: the map to the territory, whatever it's called; "the rules," the statement, the welcome, the layout, the cheery greeting: if I had these very advisements handy I would gladly cut and paste... {'Gladly would he cut and gladly paste'} (welcome to the list, Robert). Barry WISDOM Manjushri, yidam of wisdom, holds a book in one hand, a sword in the other. His consort, Sarasvati, holds a book as well and a single blue flower. ************************************ From JforJames at aol.com Sat Mar 9 14:31:25 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:31:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Crowe's fury at a cut four-liner by Kavanagh Message-ID: <150.a293e68.29bbbd0d@aol.com> Sanctity To be a poet and not know the trade, To be a lover and repel all women, Twin ironies by which great saints are made, The agonising pincer-jaws of Heaven. --Patrick Kavanagh (Collected Poems, Norton, (c)1964) --- Russell Eats Crow Over BAFTA Blowup Wed Mar 6, 6:39 PM ET If all it took was a couple of pints to settle the matter, why didn't he just say so? Regretting the hell he unleashed last week over his now infamous poetry diss, Russell Crowe apologized to the British television producer the actor accosted after last week's British Academy Film Awards. Crowe telephoned producer Malcolm Gerrie over the weekend to say he was sorry for his temper tantrum and even offered to buy Gerrie a pint the next time he was in town, a spokesman for Gerrie's production company confirmed. "He said his language had been excessive and yes, he was still a bit sore [that his acceptance speech had been nixed] but he understood that Malcolm had a job to do," the spokesman tells Reuters. Crowe's about-face comes days after he publicly shoved and berated Gerrie at an after-party following the BAFTAs--Britain's equivalent to the Oscars. The 37-year-old actor had won the BAFTA for Best Actor for his role as schizophrenic mathematician John Nash in the critically acclaimed A Beautiful Mind. During his acceptance speech, he read a piece called "Sanctity" (by the late Irish poet Patrick Kavanagh). Due to time restrictions, however, the poetry reading was trimmed from the BBC's tape-delayed broadcast. Crowe mistakenly believed Gerrie was the one with the scissors, and the notoriously short-tempered actor went on the warpath. Crowe tracked Gerrie, 51, down at a post-awards dinner at London's Grosvenor House Hotel, shoved the producer against a wall and berated him as a "f---ing piece of s---." "I don't give a f--- who you are," Crowe reportedly said. "Who on earth had the f------ audacity to take out the Best Actor's poem?" Although the actor was initially unrepentant during interviews the following day, he apparently had a change of heart, and extended the olive branch in a 20-minute phone call to Gerrie on Saturday morning. "My language was excessive because I was livid [and] I behaved inappropriately. I was overreacting because I felt passionately about it at the time," London's Sun newspaper quoted Crowe as saying. According to several Oscar pundits, Crowe's outburst came at the worst possible time--Academy voters received their ballets the day the news of Crowe's attack broke, and many Industry insiders believe the bad press may have pushed Denzel Washington ahead in the Best Actor race. In fact, the BAFTA brouhaha was the latest misstep by Crowe. He also recently turned down a Silver Heart Award from the Variety Club, a British charity, because Joan Collins had snagged the same honor the previous year. For his part, Gerrie seemd to accept Crowe's mea culpa. "I told him I didn't get any satisfaction out of the whole situation, and if he wanted to make it up to any of my family he could speak to my son," Gerrie tells the Sun. "He then spoke to [my son] Oliver for about 15 minutes an told him all about the making of Gladiator and what it was like working with real tigers. Oliver was thrilled." Crowe then suggested to Gerrie that they further make amends by getting together for a couple of drinks. "He said we should go out for a few pints of Guinness when he was next there," said Gerrie. "I said, 'I know a great pub in Brentford where we could have a few quiet pints.' I couldn't believe it--it was a total contrast to how he had reacted the week before. It was like black and white. He sounded so humble and genuinely apologetic." From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sat Mar 9 17:47:31 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:47:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #691 - 6 msgs Message-ID: <20020309224731.8A05B2756@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From sondheim at panix.com Sat Mar 9 23:27:57 2002 From: sondheim at panix.com (Alan Sondheim) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:27:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #693 - 6 msgs In-Reply-To: <200203091701.g29H16Z13227@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: It's not sad to me that I depend on the Net - not only for distribution but also for access to Unix and networking commands that form an integral part of what I do. Even the perl programs I use are online, on my shell account, not on a local machine. I think people feel that those of us who work online have somehow a less of a life - on the other hand we just returned from a canoe trip through mangrove hammocks - I veer between the muck of real-world ecology and the ecology of the net; both sustain me. Re: What Gwyn said - the primacy and importance of the Net is twofold - first as a writing/performance/interactive space - and second as perhaps the last potential space for world-wide communality we have before apocalypse sets in. Alan From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu Sun Mar 10 12:21:14 2002 From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:21:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mad Cow Disease Message-ID: The Ghost Cow of Clifton "She's certainly smarter than most of our criminals," Lt. Byrd said. "She has no love for humans grabbing a hold of her." Serious talk from a lady who spends lots of time dressing Barbie dolls as Hollywood stars. As the cow continues to evade authorities, it has taken on a rebel, folk hero status -- the theme song from "Rawhide" -- only she doesn't spew pea soup. Instead, the milking robot guides itself, largely cleans itself, and contacts a farmhand's cell phone if it detects a mechanical problem. She pulls out her fabrics, re-creates the gown in excruciating detail and dresses a recycled Barbie - she also restyles the hair - and adds it to her collection. "Funny cow. What a funny cow." Two live "decoy" cows chewed their cud but failed to lure the slaughterhouse escapee from the woods of Mount Storm Park in Clifton. A laser locates the cow's nipples, which are cleaned by rollers coated with disinfectant before being milked by long, white suction tubes on the unit's "milking claw," buying used Barbies, even when their toes are chewed off. So far, she's seen 2,800 of them and "Trust me, there are some dregs in there." Barbie is only the tip of her Oscar iceberg. The fluid is deposited into aluminum refrigeration tanks. Former Reds owner Marge Schott and Roger Bingham of Crittenden, who competed on "Survivor" last year, have publicly offered to take the cow in. Hand-spliced from "The Cincinnati Enquirer" ["Film Crew from GMA Tails Cow" 2/25/02 and "She Tries Oscar Grab on Barbie" 3/05/02] Dr. Mike From JforJames at aol.com Sun Mar 10 21:27:28 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 21:27:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter Message-ID: <115.de30488.29bd7010@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:24:23 -0700 From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter Anyone know of this? Sounds interesting... >Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter > > A Journal Devoted Exclusively to the Criticism of Poetry > >(www.cprw.com) > > >MARCH 2002 > >New Reviews > >Paul Lake explains the trouble with free verse in >"Disorderly Orders." > >James Rother considers the evolution of the American poetry anthology in >"Woodstock Meets the New >Surrealism: Rimbaud's Tribe at the Little Big Horn." > >Brian Henry reviews the first collection of Spencer Short in >"A Tremulous Debut." > >All reviews and articles can be found at: www.cprw.com > > > > >Coming Soon (March 15) > >Brian Henry reviews a new collection of poems by Louise Gl=FCck. > >Justin Quinn examines Tim Kendall's book of criticism on Sylvia Plath. > > > >New Sections > >If you are interested in advertising with the Contemporary Poetry Review, >rate and schedule information can be found her= e. > >The Poetry Online and Poetry Criticism sections of our Links have been >updated this month. > > > >Thank you, > >Garrick Davis, editor > >Contemporary Poetry Review > From JforJames at aol.com Sun Mar 10 21:33:09 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 21:33:09 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] NY Times Article on Poetry on the Peaks Message-ID: <62.1c2e5c66.29bd7165@aol.com> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:59:21 -0800 From: Ram Devineni Subject: NY Times Article on Poetry on the Peaks Dear Friends: I am happy to announce that on March 8, 2002, there was a 1/2-page article in the New York Times on Poetry on the Peaks. The article was titled "Poetry on Mountaintops, or at Least Hilltops" by James Gorman. It was in the Weekend Arts section. The full article is available at http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/08/arts/08OUTS.html?ex=1016641438&ei=1&en=7f3c2 cc9a47b5920 http://www.dialoguepoetry.org/mountain_nytimes_article.htm Also, please join us: 2002 Dialogue Through Poetry Reading Wednesday 20, March, 2002 from 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm The New School, Tishman Auditorium at 66 West 12th St., New York City. FREE Featured poets and readers: Breyten Breytenbach, Shashi Tharoor, Bob Holman, Sonia Sanchez, Sharon Olds and others. Cheers, Ram From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Sun Mar 10 21:39:24 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 19:39:24 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] NY Times Article on Poetry on the Peaks References: <62.1c2e5c66.29bd7165@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C8C18D0.7B453CB6@earthlink.net> JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 05:59:21 -0800 > From: Ram Devineni > Subject: NY Times Article on Poetry on the Peaks Speaking of the NYTimes, I've noticed that they have begun to publish original poetry again. I haven't seen the offline Book Review, which is where I think they are being published, but on the nytimes.com website you can listen to RealAudio recordings of the poets reading, which is nice. (Most of you are probably aware of this already, but I just thought I would draw attention to it as a phenomenon.) Moira Russell Seattle, WA From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Mar 11 11:58:06 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:58:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re.: Poems and Other Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 3/8/02 9:53 PM, Gwyn McVay at gmcvay at patriot.net wrote: > Dear Robert Berner, > > Really, sometimes talking about how we do what we do is organic to the > process of doing what we do. For example, if our colleague Paul Lake, > paladin of pentameter with his flocking computer "boids," were not here > posting links to his articles, who would I have to disagree with about > poetry? (very big evil grin, performed with tongue in cheek) I will even > go so far as to call the whole thing "theory," that word that makes stout > men cringe in their boots, and say that further, I also disagree with Alan > Sondheim about the primacy and importance of the Net, but I'm glad that > both poets are willing to talk here about the theory/how of what they do. > It gives me something to think about. I like to think. > > Gwyn (After great form, a painful feeling comes) > > --- > "We share half our genome with the banana. This is more evident in some of my > acquaintances than others." > Sir Robert May, President of the Royal Society of London > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Don't forget, Gwyn, you have only yourself to blame for publishing "The Shape of Poetry," the first essay in the series. By the way, my most theoretical essay ever will be coming out in Southwest Review. It's a defense of what we poets--and fiction writers-do against the prevailing winds of postmodern theory. Paul Lake From dbarone at sjc.edu Tue Mar 12 07:32:30 2002 From: dbarone at sjc.edu (dbarone) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:32:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] speaking of mountains Message-ID: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249008D2FF@sjcmail.sjc.edu> Here is part three of a poem I wrote called "Animal Magnetism": 3 From wasanthony at yahoo.com Mon Mar 11 08:23:02 2002 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 05:23:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring, 2002 issue of The Salt River Review is now online Message-ID: <20020311132302.29278.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> The Spring, 2002 issue of The Salt River Review is now online, with Poetry by David Graham, David Howard, Rhoda Janzen, Laura Jensen, Michael Karl (Ritchie), Janine Kelley, Muriel Nelson, Anthony Robinson, Pamela Stewart, Robert Sward, Ian Randall Wilson, & Vasilis Zambaras. Creative non-fiction by Laraine Herring & Helen Ruggieri. Fiction by Michael Anguiano, Dylan Maiden, & Sylvia Wheeler. The Salt River Review: ===== James Cervantes: Salt River Review: Poetserv: Homepage: Readings: __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Tue Mar 12 23:48:20 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:48:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Goldbarth Message-ID: <200203130445.g2D4jcb38759@mx11.mx.voyager.net> I see that Albert Goldbarth has won the National Book Critics Circle Award for *Saving Lives*, which I haven't read. I lost track of Goldbarth several books ago, though since he seems to publish several volumes each month, I may be further behind than I think. Any thoughts on his work from more diligent readers than I? I am recently back from the New Orleans AWP, which was a better-than-average show, from my perspective. One of the best sessions I attended was on William Matthews's jazz poems. The convergence of this with Goldbarth's award has reminded me of the following piece: Bill Matthews *Slub* he used, and *slur* a lot, and *blurred*, and derivations therefrom: *slurried*, for example. Well, he loved (and he loved well) the fur a word could wear, and its astounding nakedness beneath -- as well as anyone. And when the lub and dub a heart gives out gave out... well, he was gone. But since the words he left behind were *his* words, he was well gone -- just as he was always welcome. --Albert Goldbarth ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Mar 12 23:50:19 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:50:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Goldbarth Message-ID: <60.1c6b0132.29c0348b@cs.com> In a message dated 3/12/2002 10:48:28 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > One of the best sessions I attended was on > William Matthews's jazz poems. None of which appears in the new (Michael Waters) edition of the Al Poulin contemporary poets anthology. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmcvay at patriot.net Wed Mar 13 00:07:48 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 00:07:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re.: Poems and Other Stuff References: Message-ID: <3C8EDEA0.5350FD56@patriot.net> Paul Lake outrageously claims: >>>Don't forget, Gwyn, you have only yourself to blame for publishing "The Shape of Poetry," the first essay in the series.<<< Nuh uh. Mr. David Fenza would take my suggestions on whether to publish a given article, or what articles might make a good issue, but he always made it crystal-clear that his was the final word. I'm not really kvetching, of course; the fact that things like the "boids" part stick in my brain after many years speaks to that essay's potency. At least it was about something, and took a stand. You have no idea how many articles we got that were just mooshy stuff asserting, against no opposition, that Creativity is Good. Gwyn From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Wed Mar 13 00:16:42 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:16:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Goldbarth Message-ID: <200203130514.g2D5E3b78673@mx11.mx.voyager.net> One of the best sessions I attended was on William Matthews's jazz poems. None of which appears in the new (Michael Waters) edition of the Al Poulin contemporary poets anthology. Almost as bad as his sin in omitting Graham and Gwynn, huh? Well, I can't complain. I'm in anthologies devoted to dogs and rock music--what more could a boy want? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ---------- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Goldbarth Date: Tue, Mar 12, 2002, 10:50 PM In a message dated 3/12/2002 10:48:28 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: One of the best sessions I attended was on William Matthews's jazz poems. None of which appears in the new (Michael Waters) edition of the Al Poulin contemporary poets anthology. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 13 06:39:15 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:39:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Goldbarth References: <200203130445.g2D4jcb38759@mx11.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <005501c1ca83$b52df8e0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> If NBCC, of which I am a member, gave him an award, chances are good that it's so-so conventional stuff. I don't know his work, although I know I've read fragments of it here and there without remembering any of it for more than a moment. NBCC just repeats the awards of the other awarding organization--with only the names of the winners changed. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Wed Mar 13 11:31:13 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:31:13 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] VERSE PRESS IS PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE Message-ID: <96.232cb591.29c0d8d1@aol.com> VERSE PRESS IS PLEASED TO ANNOUNCE THE PUBLICATION OF Hat on a Pond by DARA WIER. $13 "A place for the unexpected and quietly enthralling" -- Publisher's Weekly "A stark sensibility asking the big questions" -- Rain Taxi "... to think of an elephant and falling snow in the same instant" ? Prairie Schooner "... philosophy breaks into song ..." -- Harvard Review Dara Wier is the author of 8 books of poetry. She has received grants from the Guggenheim Foundation, the National Endowment for the Arts, and the Massachusetts Cultural Council. She teaches at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst. Available directly from Verse Press as well as from Small Press Distribution and your local bookstore. *** ALSO NEW ON THE WEB: THE VERSE PRESS YOUNGER AMERICAN POETS FEATURING CORT DAY Past features of this section include Eleni Sikelianos, Katy Lederer, and Tessa Rumsey. http://www.versepress.org/newpoets.html *** FORTHCOMING 2002 VERSE TITLES Dreams of a Robot Dancing Bee, stories by JAMES TATE Winter Sex by KATY LEDERER A Beaker: New and Selected Poems by CAROLINE KNOX Given by ARIELLE GREENBERG The Yellow Hotel by DIANE WALD Monkey Time by PHILIP NIKOLAEV (winner of the 2001 Verse Prize, selected by LYN HEJINIAN) *** Please check the website for further details about release dates, and readings by all Verse Press authors. Verse Press is a non-profit publisher, specializing in poetry by younger American poets, poetry in translation, and creative prose by poets. From JforJames at aol.com Wed Mar 13 11:54:14 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:54:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] John Ashbery live via webcast Message-ID: <40.1a9526f3.29c0de36@aol.com> Subj: John Ashbery live via webcast Date: 3/12/02 1:03:20 PM Eastern Standard Time From: afilreis at dept.english.upenn.edu (Al Filreis) Sender: owner-whwebcastpast at dept.english.upenn.edu To: writershouse at dept.english.upenn.edu Please join us by live interactive webcast with John Ashbery at the Writers House on the morning of Tuesday, March 26. More details below. Al Filreis The Class of 1942 Professor of English Faculty Director, the Kelly Writers House University of Pennsylvania << www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis >> the Kelly Writers House Fellows program presents JOHN ASHBERY - via live webcast - 10:30 AM Tuesday, March 26 a conversation with John Ashbery eastern time conducted by Al Filreis To participate via webcast, you must rsvp to: << whfellow at english.upenn.edu >>. Anyone with a computer and an internet connection can participate. Participants in the webcast will be able to interact with John Ashbery by email or telephone. For more information about the Kelly Writers House webcast series, see http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/ Those who rsvp will receive further instructions. Kelly Writers House 3805 Locust Walk University of Pennsylvania 215 573-WRIT www.english.upenn.edu/~wh From daisyf1 at juno.com Wed Mar 13 12:23:36 2002 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:23:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Goldbarth Message-ID: <20020313.122336.-264683.2.daisyf1@juno.com> David-- I think Saving Lives is terrific. Vintage Goldbarth--the pleasures of reading him remain the same. He's one of my favorite poets. I saw him read at Princeton last week; he said this book is about "invisibility"--by which I think he partly means death and loss--something of a shift away from recent stuff which focused on marriage and love and sex more--but it's all done through his typically hyper-rich, dare I say "life-affirming"?, mode. Full of humor and humanity and ideas and patterning of repeated elements throughout his big endless poems. Same as always. I read him to remember that Everything can be written about. And for pure entertainment. Daisy From languagethief at yahoo.com Wed Mar 13 14:02:07 2002 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:02:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Protocols In-Reply-To: <20020313.122336.-264683.2.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <20020313190207.17998.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> To my pal Bob Berner and anyone else new on the list -- NewPo is the successor to CAP-L, a list that was specifically designed for the discussion of contemporary poetry-related issues, NOT for the sharing of one's own poetry -- the thought being that there are too many poetry-sharing lists and bulletin boards on the internet, and they tend to function more as vanity presses than anything else. Personally, I think this is a good thing -- I like to know that there are people out there thinking about poetry, and talking about poetry. I don't follow every discussion on the list, and the ones I do follow, I don't necessarily follow all the way to their conclusion -- but I continue to find enough threads that do interest me, and -- Lord knows this is easy enough -- people who know more than me, who I can learn from. But yeah, it can get a little sterile without the infusion of actual poems, so when CAP-L petered out and Jim Finnegan started NewPo, he encouraged members to post their own work, but not to flood the list with it -- he recommended one poem a month. Few of us have taken him up on it, and that's probably too bad. It would be interesting to see what other people are doing, and it would be very interesting to see if we can come up with ways of discussing each other's work that break the typical "workshopping' mold. I also wish our listmembers would blow their own horns a little more. I'd like to know who's giving readings, and where. Not all that many will be within driving distance of me, but some might be. I'd like to know who's publishing where, so I can maybe look their work up. And if people don't want to feel like they're choking the list with what we tend to refer to as "shameless self promotion," maybe some moron like me would volunteer to take charge of compliing a list -- you could backchannel the moron with readings and pubs, and he/she could compile and post them periodically. While we don't post our own work much, we do get the work of others posted from time to time by Hal Johnson and Jim Finnegan -- and recently Bob Berner. I love that. I always look forward to Hal's posts -- they're almost all poets I don't know, and generally poets I'm glad to have read. Finnegan's tend to be poets of more mainstream reputation, and they're great too -- poems I most likely wouldn't read otherwise. I always think it's unfortunate that we don't respond more to Hal's or Finnegan's posts -- sometimes I wonder if they feel like many of the rest of us feel in class -- OK, folks, any discussion? Any comments? Any opinions? I'm not sure this was where I started out intending to take this note, but it's where I'm ending it, since I've gone on too long already. Tad __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Mar 13 14:55:10 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:55:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Protocols References: <20020313190207.17998.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C8FAE9D.A9AD49C@earthlink.net> The Old Mole wrote: > > > > I always think it's unfortunate that we don't respond > more to Hal's or Finnegan's posts -- sometimes I > wonder if they feel like many of the rest of us feel > in class -- OK, folks, any discussion? Any comments? > Any opinions? > Uh, no. Not at the moment. But I think you did a terrific job at AWP! I did notice a puritanical silence creeping in when you got to the sex scenes in your song. - Jim p.s. - Schedule for readings I'm giving is available via that link in my sig. Publication credits to follow (just kidding). James Cervantes: Salt River Review: Poetserv: Homepage: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Readings: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Mar 13 15:25:44 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:25:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Protocols In-Reply-To: <20020313190207.17998.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: { I always think it's unfortunate that we don't respond { more to Hal's or Finnegan's posts -- sometimes I { wonder if they feel like many of the rest of us feel { in class -- OK, folks, any discussion? Any comments? { Any opinions? I can't speak for Finnegan, Tad, but, as for me, I've never felt as though I were in class here. I don't expect discussions or comments on the poems I've been posting. The occasional "Ah" or "Hmmm" or "Yuk" is quite enough. I post when I feel like doing so, when something strikes me or re-strikes me, or when there's a clamor for more, as with our little Holub Festival a while back. Over the years, I have found that I enjoy seeing the single poem (or two or three) plucked from an anthology, a journal, a collection. Somehow, one poem ripped from its context and placed on the screen shows up very effectively. Any thoughts before we break? Hal Caution: The Moving Walkway is Ending Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From sholman at mac.com Wed Mar 13 16:12:47 2002 From: sholman at mac.com (Shannon Holman) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:12:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Protocols In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 3/13/02 3:25 PM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote: > > Any thoughts before we break? > That would be a nice title for a collection of disjunctive poems.... Shannon From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Mar 13 18:33:12 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 18:33:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Keith Gunderson, "Emil and the Lemmings" Message-ID: Emil and the Lemmings and Emil managed the toolshed and kept things in shape and was Swedish and told jokes on Norwegians and the jokes he always told was the one about the lemmings being chased out of Sweden into Norway and staying there and that's how there came to be Norwegians yak yak yak slapping his thighs but was a good workman he never made mistakes you would mention and when it rained a lot the grass was fast so Emil set the mower blades low so they'd keep up with it and when it was dry he set the blades high so the grass wouldn't burn up but once when it was dry a man from the office came all the way down to the toolshed to accuse Emil of a mistake sections seven eight and fourteen were burning up there'd been complaints he'd better be careful Emil said nothing kept on working the man left but when Hansen came in Emil said why the hell he'd tried to fix his own blades what he thought he was doing for godssake up on seven eight and fourteen there'd been complaints he'd better be careful Hansen knew what Emil meant and said nothing tinkered around with a nearby something and looked down but Hansen was one of Emil's favorites so a little bit later Emil asked him if he'd head the one about the lemmings. --Keith Gunderson Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Mar 13 18:41:51 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:41:51 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Literary Criticism Message-ID: <3C8FE3BF.AB212403@earthlink.net> A Literary Criticism This cabbie likes to drive. This cabbie likes to go. If he picked up a fare, he'd have a destination that's not where he wants to go, some street he's passed in motion, some place he might arrive. - Jim p.s. - used a month's worth of chits on that one James Cervantes: Salt River Review: Poetserv: Homepage: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Readings: From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Wed Mar 13 23:14:58 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34 at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:14:58 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Protocols References: <20020313190207.17998.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C9023B3.E436A6A8@earthlink.net> The Old Mole wrote: > Personally, I > think this is a good thing -- I like to know that > there are people out there thinking about poetry, and > talking about poetry. (snippage) > he recommended one poem a month. Few of us have > taken him up on it, and that's probably too bad. It > would be interesting to see what other people are > doing.... (snippage) > I also wish our listmembers would blow their own horns > a little more. I'd like to know who's giving readings, > and where. Not all that many will be within driving > distance of me, but some might be. I'd like to know > who's publishing where, so I can maybe look their work > up. (snippage) > I always look forward to Hal's posts -- they're > almost all poets I don't know, and generally poets I'm > glad to have read. Finnegan's tend to be poets of more > mainstream reputation, and they're great too -- poems > I most likely wouldn't read otherwise. All excellent points, Tad. Thank you for making them. I also enjoy the more theoretical threads and wouldn't want to see the postage of poems by their author increased to more than a month, but I would really like to see what other members are doing and to hear more about other poets and poetry I wouldn't necessarily find out on my own. This was a really good thing to say. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Wed Mar 13 23:18:10 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34 at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:18:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Protocols References: Message-ID: <3C902472.D7206316@earthlink.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > Over the years, I have found that I enjoy seeing the single > poem (or two or three) plucked from an anthology, a journal, > a collection. Somehow, one poem ripped from its context > and placed on the screen shows up very effectively. That seems true to me too. Sometimes I get a dulled feeling by reading straight through someone's Complete or even Collected poems. It may be just my peculiarity, but I almost always get more out of such books if I spread the reading of them out over about a week, or do something like -- if the collection's ordered chronologically -- reading one year at a time, or something. The older I get, the more I like Selected collections, although perhaps this is just the result of an increasingly fogged attention span. Anyhow, Hal, thank you for all the poems you have posted, and particularly the latest one about Snow. I've got the collection requested from my university library, but someone seems to be clinging to it. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Wed Mar 13 23:30:33 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34 at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:30:33 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] gossip References: <115.de30488.29bd7010@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C902758.BA2CCC37@earthlink.net> Since Jim (I think that's who it was) posted the info about Crowe blowing up because a poem was cut out of his acceptance speech for an acting award, what do people think about Crowe possibly playing Ted Hughes in an upcoming film about Hughes and Sylvia Plath? Reputedly Gwyneth Paltrow is signed to play Sylvia. What movies about poets and poetry have there been anyway? Right now I can only recall "Before Night Falls" and "Tom & Viv," but I'm sure there's more. Off to the imdb.... Moira Russell Seattle, WA From wjbat at conncoll.edu Thu Mar 14 10:39:09 2002 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:39:09 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] gossip In-Reply-To: <3C902758.BA2CCC37@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20020314073909.019650@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> wrote: >people think about Crowe possibly playing Ted Hughes in an upcoming film about >Hughes and Sylvia Plath? Reputedly Gwyneth Paltrow is signed to play Sylvia. Say it ain't so. Wendy From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Thu Mar 14 08:33:18 2002 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (Michael Magee) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:33:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] gossip In-Reply-To: <20020314073909.019650@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> from "Wendy Battin" at Mar 14, 2002 07:39:09 am Message-ID: <200203141333.IAA20978@dept.english.upenn.edu> On the contrary! The unintentional comedy factor is so high here it's definitely worth pursuing! And I'm sure Crowe will have no problem mastering that special Ted Hughes brand of bathetic arrogance and meat & potatoes brutality. -m. According to Wendy Battin: > > wrote: > >people think about Crowe possibly playing Ted Hughes in an upcoming film > about > >Hughes and Sylvia Plath? Reputedly Gwyneth Paltrow is signed to play Sylvia. > > Say it ain't so. > > > Wendy > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Thom424 at aol.com Thu Mar 14 08:43:33 2002 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 08:43:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Kingsley-Tufts Award Message-ID: <191.3b454fd.29c20305@aol.com> English Professor Wins $100,000 Poetry Prize A professor at Washington University in St. Louis was named on Tuesday as the winner of the 2002 Kingsley Tufts Poetry Award, given by Claremont Graduate University. The award carries a cash prize of $100,000, the largest sum given for a book of poetry. Carl Phillips, a professor of English and African and Afro-American studies, won the award for his 2001 collection, The Tether (Farrar, Straus and Giroux). The poems focus on questions of faith, race, and sexuality. Mr. Phillips will receive the award on April 26 at a ceremony at Claremont McKenna College, in California. From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Mar 14 10:15:41 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:15:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] gossip References: <20020314073909.019650@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <007501c1cb6b$1df7c1c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wendy Battin" To: Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] gossip > wrote: > >people think about Crowe possibly playing Ted Hughes in an upcoming film > about > >Hughes and Sylvia Plath? Reputedly Gwyneth Paltrow is signed to play Sylvia. > > Say it ain't so. > > > Wendy > SYLVIA --When are Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan going to make another of those wonderful romantic comedies, like Sleepless in Seattle or You've Got Mail? --Tom and Meg will certainly be looking for scripts they can do together. But meanwhile, they each have projects going on their own. They'll both be going in front of the cameras in biopics-Tom playing Dean Martin, while Meg does the life of Sylvia Plath. Give up those adorable Tom and Meg romances? It's too much to ask. And there's a better way. Sylvia loses the Mademoiselle competition. To make it up, her parents take her for a week in Havana. She meets Dino--handsome, gifted, unfulfilled. She tells him he needs a partner, a wisecracker, zany-"What about you, sweetheart?" Dean asks, eyes twinkling. Her parents take her back to Boston. She's shoved into Wellesley, Lowell, poetry, Ted Hughes, and Dean meets Jerry, who looks sort of like Sylvia, without her vivacious wit. Life pulls them apart, their chance at happiness lost.forever? It looks that way for Sylvia. One day, she decides to end it all. She goes to turn on the gas jet, but by mistake, hits the radio, hears, through the static, Everybody loves somebody sometime.Dean! He's playing the Albert Hall, with Jerry! She leaves Ted and his mistress minding the kids, she takes a cab, gets backstage to find Dean in his dressing room, a gun to his head. She pries it gently from his fingers. They talk all night, walking beside the Thames. Dean tells her he can't stand another night with Jerry. They've found each other. Jerry goes off to France, Dean and Sylvia head for Vegas, where he teaches her how to laugh again, she writes new material for him, brings a touch of profundity to his act: When a boot hits your eye like a big Nazi spy that's a Daddy. It's a happy ending for Sylvia, and there's a lesson to be learned for all of us: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Mar 14 10:17:42 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:17:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] gossip References: <115.de30488.29bd7010@aol.com> <3C902758.BA2CCC37@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <008d01c1cb6b$7e0e7360$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> There's the one where Ronald Colman plays Francois Villon. Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 11:30 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] gossip > Since Jim (I think that's who it was) posted the info about Crowe blowing up > because a poem was cut out of his acceptance speech for an acting award, what do > people think about Crowe possibly playing Ted Hughes in an upcoming film about > Hughes and Sylvia Plath? Reputedly Gwyneth Paltrow is signed to play Sylvia. > What movies about poets and poetry have there been anyway? Right now I can only > recall "Before Night Falls" and "Tom & Viv," but I'm sure there's more. Off to > the imdb.... > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Thu Mar 14 10:29:57 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:29:57 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: gossip Message-ID: <200203141529.g2EFTVY63504@mx7.mx.voyager.net> I'm fond of *Il Postino*, myself, which does a pretty good job with Neruda. The number of movies about writers (or teachers) that I like unreservedly is small. If she were a bit younger, Meryl Streep could probably play Plath well, don't you think? David Graham ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From Thom424 at aol.com Thu Mar 14 10:31:30 2002 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:31:30 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies Message-ID: <10d.ef099d2.29c21c52@aol.com> Remember TOTAL ECLIPSE (1995, I think) with Leonardo DiCaprio as Arthur Rimbaud and David Thewlis as Paul Verlaine? From sholman at mac.com Thu Mar 14 10:35:13 2002 From: sholman at mac.com (Shannon Holman) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:35:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] gossip--movies about poets In-Reply-To: <3C902758.BA2CCC37@earthlink.net> Message-ID: on 3/13/02 11:30 PM, odysseus34 at earthlink.net at odysseus34 at earthlink.net wrote: >>What movies about poets and poetry have there been anyway? Don't forget Il Postino. And several years ago a teacher of mine was employed to write bad poems (a task which of course didn't come easily to her) for a movie directed by Coppola about a young female poet and her love interest (played by Sting). Alas, it was never released. Shannon -- Shannon Holman work: 212.545.6089 home: 718.638.1239 sholman at mac.com -- http://www.onemississippi.com From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Thu Mar 14 13:24:34 2002 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (NMSU) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:24:34 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #699 - 2 msgs In-Reply-To: <200203141701.g2EH17Z22351@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Poet Movies (Thom424 at aol.com) > 2. Re: gossip--movies about poets (Shannon Holman) > > --__--__-- > >>> What movies about poets and poetry have there been anyway? > > There is, of course, "Dead Poets Society," which teenagers find utterly inspiring. "So I Married an Axe Murderer" is a very funny movie with Michael Myers as a struggling beat poet. "Before Night falls" is an excellent movie directed by Julian Schnabel about a Cuban Poet/writer who came to the US in one the boat lifts in the 80's... Connie Voisine From MillB at aol.com Thu Mar 14 12:29:26 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:29:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Kingsley-Tufts Award Message-ID: <111.ed3a8fc.29c237f6@aol.com> Does anyone know who won the Kate Tufts this year? Mill From Thom424 at aol.com Thu Mar 14 12:34:31 2002 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:34:31 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] 2002 Kingsley Tufts Poetry Award Message-ID: <148.b061fec.29c23927@aol.com> English Professor Wins $100,000 Poetry Prize A professor at Washington University in St. Louis was named on Tuesday as the winner of the 2002 Kingsley Tufts Poetry Award, given by Claremont Graduate University. The award carries a cash prize of $100,000, the largest sum given for a book of poetry. Carl Phillips, a professor of English and African and Afro-American studies, won the award for his 2001 collection, The Tether (Farrar, Straus and Giroux). The poems focus on questions of faith, race, and sexuality. Mr. Phillips will receive the award on April 26 at a ceremony at Claremont McKenna College, in California. _______________________________________________ From JforJames at aol.com Thu Mar 14 12:49:38 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:49:38 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Protocols Message-ID: <21.1a94178e.29c23cb2@aol.com> > recommended one poem a month. Few of us have > > taken him up on it, and that's probably too bad. It > > would be interesting to see what other people are > > doing.... > Yes, this guideline (on our into webpage) should be seen as an honest invitation to post poems periodically. And if a poem fits the discussion at hand, then, by all means, post away. This is especially true at those times when a kind of poem or a particular theme is brought up in the conversation, and listmembers contribute their work, along with the work of others, to what becomes something of an e-phemeral anthology of poetry based on that type/theme. Often, when the type/theme is of interest to me, I save all the poems posted in file for future reference. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Thu Mar 14 12:53:54 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:53:54 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] gossip Message-ID: <3a.2383eec1.29c23db2@aol.com> In a message dated 3/14/02 8:34:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu writes: > Ted Hughes brand of bathetic arrogance and meat & > potatoes brutality. -m. Michael, is that T. Hughes, his work, or both you're referring to? I'm not qualified to speak about his life per se...but I like the visceral, earthy and gorgeously descriptive nature of much of his poetry. Finnegan From ddstokes at telusplanet.net Thu Mar 14 11:26:12 2002 From: ddstokes at telusplanet.net (The Stokes Family) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:26:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #699 - 2 msgs References: Message-ID: <3C90CF23.F869DF4B@telusplanet.net> Shakespeare in Love, Bonny & Clyde NMSU wrote: > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Poet Movies (Thom424 at aol.com) > > 2. Re: gossip--movies about poets (Shannon Holman) > > > > From JforJames at aol.com Thu Mar 14 14:11:15 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:11:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies Message-ID: & these (caveat: the synopses are from memory)... HeartBeat (with Notle & Spacek as the squablling Cassadys; John Heard plays Kerouac; the Ginsberg part was minor, as I recall) Belle of Amherst (Julia Harris as ED) Stevie (Glenda Jackson as Stevie Smith) Beautiful Dreamer (Rip Torn as Walt Whitman, but more about a doctor trying to reform an asylum in Canada and trying hold onto the his wife's love.) Garcia Lorca (Andy Garcia as Lorca; Lorca portrayed in flashbacks that try to tell the story of Spain in the time leading up to his death.) MindWalk (John Heard, as a poet, Liv Ulmann, a scientist w/ a humanist streak and Sam Waterson, as a jaded politician, make conversation as they walk along the sandflats at low tide toward to Mt.-St.-Michel.) A Fine Madness (Sean Connery as hard drinking/womanizing poet at odds with the social milieu of the literary life he finds himself in.) Ruben, Ruben (Tom Conte as a poet who is loosing his teeth) Tales of Ordinary Madness (Ben Gazzara as Charles Bukowski, lots of hard drinking and tough talk) Slam (w/ Saul Williams; I've not seen it yet.) Poetic Justice (Janet Jackson & Tupac Shakar star) SlamNation (about the stars of the annual National Poetry Slam) From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Thu Mar 14 14:17:12 2002 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (Michael Magee) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:17:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] gossip In-Reply-To: <3a.2383eec1.29c23db2@aol.com> from "JforJames@aol.com" at Mar 14, 2002 12:53:54 pm Message-ID: <200203141917.OAA15265@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to JforJames at aol.com: > > > Ted Hughes brand of bathetic arrogance and meat & > > potatoes brutality. -m. > Michael, is that T. Hughes, his work, or both you're referring > to? I'm not qualified to speak about his life per se...but I > like the visceral, earthy and gorgeously descriptive nature > of much of his poetry. > Finnegan Finnegan, I guess it's a matter of never really liking his work in the first place and then being very put off by the man in reading the Plath biographies and reading about his stranglehold on her work. But it's there in the poems too: Brilliantly, concentratedly, Coming about it's own business Till, with a sudden sharp stink of fox It enters the dark hole of the head. I mean, c'mon Ted! Stop writing about your penis for five seconds. Sheesh! -m. From shep at attbi.com Thu Mar 14 14:36:01 2002 From: shep at attbi.com (shep) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:36:01 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Barfly Dylan films: Don't look back, Eat the Document, Renaldo & Clara -- From JforJames at aol.com Thu Mar 14 14:42:16 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:42:16 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Protocols Message-ID: <18b.4d3461e.29c25718@aol.com> In a message dated 3/13/02 3:28:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > can't speak for Finnegan, Tad, but, as for me, I've never > felt as though I were in class here. I don't expect discussions > or comments on the poems I've been posting. The occasional > "Ah" or "Hmmm" or "Yuk" is quite enough. > > I post when I feel like doing so, when something strikes me > I do post poems in the hope that some discussion spins from them. But I don't expect that each will move members to speak....and some of the ones I post I may not even like. The poems are mostly pieces I've read lately or have come to my attention via the internet....it's a very random selection process. Finnegan From languagethief at yahoo.com Thu Mar 14 16:09:27 2002 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:09:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020314210927.70858.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com> Chaucer is a character in the recent "A Knight's Tale." Shakespeare and Marlowe in "Shakespeare in Love." --- shep wrote: > Barfly > Dylan films: Don't look back, Eat the Document, > Renaldo & Clara > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ From languagethief at yahoo.com Thu Mar 14 16:14:31 2002 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:14:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020314211431.80394.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com> Haunted Summer. The plot summary from IMBD: In 1815, authors Lord Byron, Mary Shelley and Percy Shelley get together for some philosophical discussions, but the situation soon deteriorates into mind games, drugs and sex. Why would this be considered a deterioration? --- shep wrote: > Barfly > Dylan films: Don't look back, Eat the Document, > Renaldo & Clara > -- > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ From gudding at olemiss.edu Thu Mar 14 18:22:05 2002 From: gudding at olemiss.edu (Gudding) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:22:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP Report Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020314161839.032a3020@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu> Apologies for cross-posting. Clio, Mairead Byrne, Marina and I drove the 6 hours from Oxford due south into New Orleans, 370 miles. We arrived at the Radisson Thursday evening, people were smoking in the lobby. After we set Marina and Clio up in our very small room, Mairead and I went to hear Richard Ford giving his keynote speech but left because we couldn't hear what he was saying. He may have been talking about squash. We found more whiskey and red wine and then made our way to the first AWP Poetry Slam. I heard Annie Finch perform a rousing poem. And then Mairead read a poem she wrote while trying to hear what Richard Ford was saying during his keynote talk. I read one of my insult poems which I had to cut huge chunks out of because you're not meant to read over 3 minutes. Then there was a great reader named Abraham Smith who's only published 3 poems. He had a funny little hat and beautiful eyes. Afterward Mairead and I went the AWP sponsored soiree Thurs night and sat down and met Charles Ford and Pierre Joris. I got a mild case of food poisoning from Dijon Chicken and became flatulent while showing Pierre my aluminum Lamy Al-Star fountain pen with broad stub nib (filled with Permanent Royal Blue vintage Sheaffer Skrip). Pierre showed me his Montblanc 146 with medium nib and his Yves St Laurent steel nibbed cartridge fill (a delightful pen, very smooth and wet). My stomach began to balloon under my sportcoat and I told Pierre, Charles and Mairead that I needed to go outside and release its contents. I said that in addition to expelling gas I would be smoking. Pierre's eyes lit up and asked for some cigarettes. I gave him 3 Parliament Lights. He was wearing new tennis shoes and while we were outside smoking he told Mairead and me all about his life in London, Algiers, and in various places Upstate, and what it's like to work with Jerome Rothenberg. I think they were Adidas though I'm not sure. Probably the least of my misfortunes during the conference was that I fainted on the street Friday at noon while talking to Ed Ochester and my esteemed friend Gerry LaFemina (who's on the AWP's board of directors). The latter carried me inside half unconscious and across the lobby of the Radisson, ensconcing me in an overstuffed chair. He then ran to fetch Mairead from our room as the editor of Pitt patted my hand. People were gawking. I had once again become helplessly flatulent. The word "ignominious" does not begin to characterize how I felt. Friday afternoon I wandered the bookfair in a hypoglycemic daze. Friday night saw Mairead and I having drinks with Crystal Williams, a colleague from Cornell who now teaches at Reed; fantastic poet. Later on we began to hit the receptions on floor 6 and ate a lot fruit; I talked with Rodney Jones some and later on at the AWP soiree again and while having too many free J&B/rocks with Mairead, Mary Ann Samyn, and Gerry, I met Joseph Duemer. We talked at length about Kent Johnson. Then Joe said abruptly he had to leave. Saturday afternoon I took Clio outside and went collecting Mardi Gras necklaces from the dirt in a nearby park. Later on I again wandered the bookfair with hypoglycemia. Saturday evening Mairead and I went to the LitCity reading and heard Rachel Zucker, Arielle Greenberg, Maxine Chernoff, Paul Hoover, Claudia Keelan, Randy Prunty, and others read. The wine there was free and some guy in a suit stood in front of the salsa hogging it, I wanted to punch the back of his head, all these other people wanted salsa. Very selfish man. (I realized later it was Andrei Codrescu). Then I showed Pierre Joris my vintage Teal Parker 51 Demi from 1942 and he pretended to put it in his breast pocket. I panicked briefly until I realized he was just having me on. Then Bill Lavender told Mairead and me to to go to Molly's and we did and sat in the back, but no one else followed us there. As we were leaving Maxine Chernoff said, "You're Gabriel aren't you." I said that I was. Then Mairead and I walked home down Bourbon Street to Canal and I saw the breasts of many people because they were lifting their shirts. One man pulled out his dong and began jumping up and down. It was very crowded and everyone but Mairead and me had a drink in hand. The air smelled like beer pee. The next day before driving across Lake Pontchartrain we drove up Bourbon Street; it was empty and clean and smelled of incense. The sun was shining and there was a slight breeze. Gabriel Gudding PS, The reports about the rat attacking Donald Revell's ankles at LitCity are true; also the lady from the back who screamed "Shut if off!" because Pierre's phone went off while Paul Hoover was reading -- that is also true and the best part was that Hoover thought the lady was yelling at him to shutup and got this shocked but gentle look on his face like "Well, I can stop reading if you really want." From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Mar 14 20:28:12 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 20:28:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Protocols References: <18b.4d3461e.29c25718@aol.com> Message-ID: <005801c1cbc0$ad292a00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> > In a message dated 3/13/02 3:28:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, > halvard at earthlink.net writes: > > can't speak for Finnegan, Tad, but, as for me, I've never > > felt as though I were in class here. I don't expect discussions > > or comments on the poems I've been posting. The occasional > > "Ah" or "Hmmm" or "Yuk" is quite enough. > > > > I post when I feel like doing so, when something strikes me > > > I do post poems in the hope that some discussion spins > from them. But I don't expect that each will move members to > speak....and some of the ones I post I may not even like. > The poems are mostly pieces I've read lately or have come > to my attention via the internet....it's a very random selection > process. > Finnegan > > Did anyone notice how completely I was talking through my hat? When I suggested we could come up with a new way of discussing poetry that was not conventional workshopping? I had, and have, no idea what I meant by that, but it still sounds like a good idea. Tad From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Mar 14 23:02:13 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:02:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Anyone mentioned *Tom & Viv* yet, or have I missed it? Hal Caution: The Moving Walkway is Ending Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 15 01:39:39 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:39:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] gossip References: <200203141333.IAA20978@dept.english.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <3C919729.6B0097E@earthlink.net> Am I remembering this incorrectly or was it Alec Guinness who made a big hit in the play of "Dylan Thomas in America"? Or was it some other actor? No, no, not Burton. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 15 01:44:23 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:44:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: gossip References: <200203141529.g2EFTVY63504@mx7.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3C919845.DA30CAAC@earthlink.net> David Graham wrote: > I'm fond of *Il Postino*, myself, which does a pretty good job with Neruda. > The number of movies about writers (or teachers) that I like unreservedly is > small. I had forgotten about "Il Postino," which is a little hard to believe, given the readings of Neruda I witnessed on TV by Sting and other celebrities staged by Miramax to pump up the movie. (Maybe this could be expanded to movies in which poetry plays an important role. There's "Dead Poets Society," of course. And in "Mindwalk" a Neruda poem is used to sum up the entire two-hour talkfest between Liv Ullman and Sam Waterston...). For some reason I have not seen it, although a lot of people have told me I would probably like it. > If she were a bit younger, Meryl Streep could probably play Plath well, > don't you think? Dear God, anyone other than Meg Ryan, although Gwyneth Paltrow ain't much better -- and who ever cast her as the Dark Lady of the Sonnets? Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 15 01:45:48 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:45:48 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies References: <10d.ef099d2.29c21c52@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C919899.AD45A324@earthlink.net> Thom424 at aol.com wrote: > Remember TOTAL ECLIPSE (1995, I think) with Leonardo DiCaprio as Arthur > Rimbaud and David Thewlis as Paul Verlaine? No, but oh God, now I must! Is it at Blockbuster's? -- Let's see, Leo also played bad-boy poet Jim Carroll in "The Basketball Diaries," didn't he? Perhaps he can take a whack at Dylan Thomas in oh fifty years. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 15 01:52:35 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:52:35 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies References: Message-ID: <3C919A2F.495E9968@earthlink.net> JforJames at aol.com wrote: > & these (caveat: the synopses are from memory)... Wow, I'm impressed. I'd heard of "Stevie" but never seen it....Andy Garcia as Lorca? Funny how we both mentioned "Mindwalk" (although I don't think you ever hear any of the poet's own poetry in the movie; he quotes Neruda and Rexroth). (That movie also contains one of my favorite lines in cinema, where he stares at the physicist during a particularly arcane explanation and murmurs in genuine bafflement: "How can you....look in the world in a way that's _non-metaphorical_?") I read "Reuben Reuben" but never saw the movie, having confused it in some way with "Author Author." The book has a nice poemlet in it beginning, "Come, let us picnic on the precipice...." I thought "Before Night Falls" was a kick-ass movie. Is "SlamNation" a documentary? I ain't saying anything about Janet Jackson cast as a woman named Justice who writes poetry. Moira Russell Seattle, WA > HeartBeat (with Notle & Spacek as the squablling Cassadys; John Heard plays > Kerouac; the Ginsberg part was minor, as I recall) > > Belle of Amherst (Julia Harris as ED) > > Stevie (Glenda Jackson as Stevie Smith) > > Beautiful Dreamer (Rip Torn as Walt Whitman, but more about a > doctor trying to reform an asylum in Canada and trying hold onto > the his wife's love.) > > Garcia Lorca (Andy Garcia as Lorca; Lorca portrayed in flashbacks > that try to tell the story of Spain in the time leading up to his death.) > > MindWalk (John Heard, as a poet, Liv Ulmann, a scientist w/ a humanist > streak and Sam Waterson, as a jaded politician, make conversation as they > walk along the sandflats at low tide toward to Mt.-St.-Michel.) > > A Fine Madness (Sean Connery as hard drinking/womanizing poet at odds > with the social milieu of the literary life he finds himself in.) > > Ruben, Ruben (Tom Conte as a poet who is loosing his teeth) > > Tales of Ordinary Madness (Ben Gazzara as Charles Bukowski, lots of hard > drinking and tough talk) > > Slam (w/ Saul Williams; I've not seen it yet.) > > Poetic Justice (Janet Jackson & Tupac Shakar star) > > SlamNation (about the stars of the annual National Poetry Slam) From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 15 01:54:49 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:54:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] gossip References: <200203141917.OAA15265@dept.english.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <3C919AB5.C184BFFD@earthlink.net> > Brilliantly, concentratedly, > Coming about it's own business > > Till, with a sudden sharp stink of fox > It enters the dark hole of the head. > > I mean, c'mon Ted! Stop writing about your penis for five seconds. > Sheesh! -m. I'm not one really to defend Ted Hughes -- but that's really a poem about writing, and a good one too ("The page is printed" -- with the tracks of the fox, and the words of the poet); it's justifiably famous. I do not think the penis makes an appearance (and in graduate school, they trained us to be on the lookout for that sort of thing). Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 15 01:57:46 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:57:46 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies References: <20020314211431.80394.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C919B66.CAF0D251@earthlink.net> The Old Mole wrote: > Haunted Summer. > > The plot summary from IMBD: In 1815, authors Lord > Byron, Mary Shelley and Percy Shelley get together for > some philosophical discussions, but the situation soon > deteriorates into mind games, drugs and sex. "Philosophical discussions"?? Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 15 02:01:49 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:01:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Protocols References: <18b.4d3461e.29c25718@aol.com> <005801c1cbc0$ad292a00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <3C919C59.3C43DF46@earthlink.net> > Did anyone notice how completely I was talking through my hat? When I > suggested we could come up with a new way of discussing poetry that was not > conventional workshopping? I had, and have, no idea what I meant by that, > but it still sounds like a good idea. > > Tad During my stint at graduate school I got so fed up with "conventional workshopping" that in my very brief incarnation as a teacher I told my beginning writing students: "You can say someone's writing is good. You can say someone's writing is bad. The only word you cannot use to describe someone's writing in this class is 'fresh.' Milk is fresh. Eggs are fresh. Writing is not fresh." After a while, we decided "new" and "striking" also had to be verboten, and after that got along quite well. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 15 02:05:53 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 00:05:53 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies References: Message-ID: <3C919D4C.2D29125A@earthlink.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > Anyone mentioned *Tom & Viv* yet, or have > I missed it? I did. Miranda Richardson gives a hella performance, although I think the film underplays how much Eliot was avoiding her before she was committed and how desperate she was to get in touch with him just as his wife, which was passed off as craziness, and there was a distinct suggestion she more or less chose to flunk the sanity test ("I'm brilliant at puzzles"). The closing shot of the movie is of Willem Defoe looking extraordinarily haunted and being carried down as into the underworld in a barred lift, when actually he did go on to happily convert, marry Valerie Eliot and write the "Four Quartets." You get the impression the Eliot in the movie is waay too conservative to even have _thought_ of wearing green face powder. The film should certainly give bright young women pause about marrying young male geniuses which can never be a bad thing. (Totally off-topic there is a nice recent novel, "The Archivist," about a librarian guarding Eliot's papers which has major discussions about Eliot & Vivian.) Moira Russell Seattle, WA From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Mar 15 07:12:27 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 05:12:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies References: Message-ID: <3C91E528.EDDD77EB@earthlink.net> I find it horribly ironic that just as I was saving these lists of poet movies, my vcr stops working. Luckily, I've already seen some of them because I simply will not buy electronics for a while. - Jim p.s. - "Il Postino" my favorite of them all JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > & these (caveat: the synopses are from memory)... > HeartBeat (with Notle & Spacek as the squablling Cassadys; John Heard plays > Kerouac; the Ginsberg part was minor, as I recall) > > Belle of Amherst (Julia Harris as ED) > > Stevie (Glenda Jackson as Stevie Smith) > > Beautiful Dreamer (Rip Torn as Walt Whitman, but more about a > doctor trying to reform an asylum in Canada and trying hold onto > the his wife's love.) > > Garcia Lorca (Andy Garcia as Lorca; Lorca portrayed in flashbacks > that try to tell the story of Spain in the time leading up to his death.) > > MindWalk (John Heard, as a poet, Liv Ulmann, a scientist w/ a humanist > streak and Sam Waterson, as a jaded politician, make conversation as they > walk along the sandflats at low tide toward to Mt.-St.-Michel.) > > A Fine Madness (Sean Connery as hard drinking/womanizing poet at odds > with the social milieu of the literary life he finds himself in.) > > Ruben, Ruben (Tom Conte as a poet who is loosing his teeth) > > Tales of Ordinary Madness (Ben Gazzara as Charles Bukowski, lots of hard > drinking and tough talk) > > Slam (w/ Saul Williams; I've not seen it yet.) > > Poetic Justice (Janet Jackson & Tupac Shakar star) > > SlamNation (about the stars of the annual National Poetry Slam) > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From daisyf1 at juno.com Fri Mar 15 07:38:25 2002 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 07:38:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kate Tufts Message-ID: <20020315.080249.-327523.0.daisyf1@juno.com> I believe I heard Cate Marvin won the Kate Tufts for _World's Tallest Disaster_. Daisy From snospx at silcom.com Thu Mar 14 12:18:13 2002 From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:18:13 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: metanoia Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020314091813.00819100@silcom.com> At 10:26 AM 3/14/02 -0500, Wendy Battin (?) wrote > >SYLVIA > >Wendy, this is your d'esprit? O the wonder -- brilliant! > >Barry >________ > >SYLVIA > >--When are Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan going to make another of those wonderful >romantic comedies, like Sleepless in Seattle or You've Got Mail? >--Tom and Meg will certainly be looking for scripts they can do together. >But meanwhile, they each have projects going on their own. They'll both be >going in front of the cameras in biopics-Tom playing Dean Martin, while Meg >does the life of Sylvia Plath. > > >Give up those adorable >Tom and Meg romances? >It's too much to ask. > >And there's a better way. >Sylvia loses the Mademoiselle >competition. To make it up, > >her parents take her >for a week in Havana. She meets >Dino--handsome, gifted, unfulfilled. > >She tells him he needs a partner, >a wisecracker, zany-"What about you, >sweetheart?" Dean asks, eyes twinkling. > >Her parents take her back to Boston. >She's shoved into Wellesley, Lowell, poetry, >Ted Hughes, and Dean meets Jerry, > >who looks sort of like Sylvia, without her >vivacious wit. Life pulls them apart, >their chance at happiness lost.forever? > >It looks that way for Sylvia. One day, >she decides to end it all. She goes to turn on >the gas jet, but by mistake, hits the radio, > >hears, through the static, Everybody >loves somebody sometime.Dean! He's playing >the Albert Hall, with Jerry! She leaves > >Ted and his mistress minding the kids, >she takes a cab, gets backstage to find >Dean in his dressing room, a gun to his head. > >She pries it gently from his fingers. They talk >all night, walking beside the Thames. Dean tells her >he can't stand another night with Jerry. > >They've found each other. Jerry >goes off to France, Dean and Sylvia >head for Vegas, where he teaches her > >how to laugh again, she writes >new material for him, brings >a touch of profundity to his act: > >When a boot hits your eye >like a big Nazi spy >that's a Daddy. > >It's a happy ending for Sylvia, >and there's a lesson to be learned >for all of us: > > > >- > From JforJames at aol.com Fri Mar 15 10:47:23 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:47:23 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: gossip Message-ID: In a message dated 3/15/02 2:41:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes: > And in "Mindwalk" a Neruda poem is used to sum up the entire two-hour > talkfest between Liv Ullman and Sam Waterston...). For some reason I have > not > seen it, although a lot of people have told me I would probably like it. > Moira, it's a good one. I don't remember the Neruda poem. I do seem to remember the Heard character reciting from memory "All My Pretty Towns" (title?) by Kenneth Patchen. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Fri Mar 15 10:49:59 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:49:59 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies Message-ID: <39.23ebbdeb.29c37227@aol.com> In a message dated 3/15/02 2:50:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes: > Is "SlamNation" a documentary? > Moira, yes...I think is largely centers on the Portland Nationals two or three years ago. Jim F From JforJames at aol.com Fri Mar 15 10:58:10 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:58:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies Message-ID: <10.1b7d4e6a.29c37412@aol.com> In a message dated 3/15/02 3:04:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes: > The closing shot of the movie is of Willem > Defoe looking extraordinarily haunted and being carried down as into the > underworld in a barred lift, when actually he did go on to happily > convert, marry Valerie Eliot and write the "Four Quartets." You get the > impression the Eliot in the movie is waay too conservative to even have > _thought_ of wearing green face powder. The film should certainly give > bright young women pause about marrying young male geniuses which can > never be a bad thing. Moira, I remember a particular line that I believe Eliot (Defoe) utters twice in the course of the movie: Eliot says poetry is "a mug's game." It struck me as somewhat odd & a little outofkeeping with the Eliot sensibility I see/read between the lines of his essays. Finnegan From wjbat at conncoll.edu Fri Mar 15 14:12:42 2002 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:12:42 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: metanoia In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020314091813.00819100@silcom.com> Message-ID: <20020315111242.012727@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Barry Spacks wrote: >>Wendy, this is your d'esprit? O the wonder -- brilliant! Barry, I wish I could take the credit. But I think that was Tad. I second the kudos. Wendy From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Mar 15 11:34:03 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:34:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: metanoia References: <20020315111242.012727@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <00bc01c1cc3f$48f97b00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wendy Battin" To: Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: metanoia > Barry Spacks wrote: > >>Wendy, this is your d'esprit? O the wonder -- brilliant! > > Barry, I wish I could take the credit. But I think that was Tad. I > second the kudos. > > Wendy > > Yeah, that was mine...and thanks to both of you. Tad From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Mar 15 11:53:22 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 10:53:22 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies In-Reply-To: <10.1b7d4e6a.29c37412@aol.com> Message-ID: on 3/15/02 9:58 AM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/15/02 3:04:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, > odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes: > >> The closing shot of the movie is of Willem >> Defoe looking extraordinarily haunted and being carried down as into the >> underworld in a barred lift, when actually he did go on to happily >> convert, marry Valerie Eliot and write the "Four Quartets." You get the >> impression the Eliot in the movie is waay too conservative to even have >> _thought_ of wearing green face powder. The film should certainly give >> bright young women pause about marrying young male geniuses which can >> never be a bad thing. > Moira, I remember a particular line that I believe Eliot (Defoe) utters twice > in > the course of the movie: Eliot says poetry is "a mug's game." It struck me as > somewhat odd & a little outofkeeping with the Eliot sensibility I see/read > between the lines of his essays. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Jim, the script writer borrowed from reality in this case: Eliot really did say that poetry was a mug's game. Unfortunately, I frequently understand what he meant. Paul Lake From acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu Fri Mar 15 12:45:31 2002 From: acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu (Alan C Golding) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:45:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies Message-ID: A bit belatedly on this thread, but--there's the movie in which Anthony Hopkins plays C. S. Lewis and Debra Winger plays the Pullet Surprise-winning American poet whom he marries, and whose name escapes me right now. Ken Russell's "The White Worm"--isn't that the title of the movie that has the same plot as "The Haunted Summer?"--"The Shelleys and Byron get together . . ." Alan From kellogg at duke.edu Fri Mar 15 12:56:00 2002 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:56:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Mar 2002, Alan C Golding wrote: > A bit belatedly on this thread, but--there's the movie in which Anthony > Hopkins plays C. S. Lewis and Debra Winger plays the Pullet > Surprise-winning American poet whom he marries, and whose name escapes > me right now. Joy Davidman? She's discussed a bit in Cary Nelson's Depression & Discovery (Repression & Recovery). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Director, Writing in the Disciplines kellogg at duke.edu Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing (919) 668-1615 Duke University FAX (919) 6681-0637 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ From JforJames at aol.com Fri Mar 15 13:37:14 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 13:37:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies Message-ID: <145.b1fc311.29c3995a@aol.com> Really digging deep now... In Petrified Forest, isn't the Leslie Howard character a despondent poet who rises to the occasion and faces down the snarling gangster Duke Mantee (Bogie)? A Man in Love...Peter Coyote, playing an actor, finds a new romance in the Italian countryside while on location shooting a movie about the life of Cesare Pavese. A Merry War...Richard E Grant as adman who quits his good job to become a poet (not a career choice); Helena Bonham Carter co-stars. Based on a Geo. Orwell story. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Fri Mar 15 13:47:42 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 13:47:42 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies Message-ID: <21.1a9b84e7.29c39bce@aol.com> In a message dated 3/15/02 11:57:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > Jim, the script writer borrowed from reality in this case: Eliot really did > say that poetry was a mug's game. Unfortunately, I frequently understand > what he meant. > Paul, Is "mug's game" a British expression for a fool's game or no-win proposition? & is it an ordinary idiom or is there a literary reference behind it? Finnegan From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Mar 15 13:49:09 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 12:49:09 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies In-Reply-To: <21.1a9b84e7.29c39bce@aol.com> Message-ID: on 3/15/02 12:47 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/15/02 11:57:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, > paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > >> Jim, the script writer borrowed from reality in this case: Eliot really did >> say that poetry was a mug's game. Unfortunately, I frequently understand >> what he meant. >> > Paul, > Is "mug's game" a British expression for a fool's game or no-win proposition? > & is it an ordinary idiom or is there a literary reference behind it? > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > I'm pretty sure it's the former. Paul From Thom424 at aol.com Fri Mar 15 15:03:42 2002 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:03:42 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies Message-ID: Romantic Poets Offer Rewarding Company By LAWRENCE VAN GELDER L iterate and handsome, "Pandaemonium" examines the relationship between the English romantic poets Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772-1834) and William Wordsworth (1770-1850) as a drama of friendship, rivalry, ambition, betrayal and political intrigue in an era of recognizable parallels to recent decades. So, working from a screenplay by Frank Cottrell Boyce ("Hilary and Jackie"), the director, Julien Temple ("Absolute Beginners"), infuses his film with elements of political rebelliousness colored by the French Revolution, government surveillance and repression, utopianism, scientific innovation, respect for nature, drug use and popular stardom of the sort that prompts the press to clamor and young women to swoon. In graceful underscoring as he makes telling visual and narrative use of the beauteous landscape of lakes and shores and hills and fields and villages that nourished the imagination of these poets, Mr. Temple from time to time slashes the pale blue sky over his England with the diagonal white contrail of a jet aircraft. Clearly the filmmakers' sympathies lie with Coleridge, whose fevered mind, stoked with the tincture of opium called laudanum, gave the world "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" and "Kubla Khan." To Wordsworth they ascribe not only base motives but also an often earthbound literary sensibility elevated by Dorothy, his perceptively critical proto-feminist sister, whose passion for a receptive Coleridge is inhibited by his marriage, his fatherhood and occasional untimely intrusions. Films like "Pandaemonium," in which a visual medium grapples with literary art, often founder in their depiction of creation, but Mr. Temple and Mr. Boyce bring subtle ridicule to Wordsworth's peripatetic dictation to Dorothy, and they ably transmit the hellish torture and triumph of Coleridge's nightmare journeys into creativity. The two poets in the film ? which opens today at the Village East (Second Avenue at 12th Street, East Village), are admirably portrayed. Linus Roache ("The Wings of the Dove") plays the anguished, hot-blooded Coleridge and John Hannah ("Four Weddings and a Funeral") is the comparably repressed Wordsworth. The fine cast includes Emily Woof as Dorothy Wordsworth, Samantha Morton as Coleridge's patient wife, Sara; Emma Fielding as Wordsworth's chilly spouse, Mary; Andy Serkis as John Thelwell, tortured in the Tower of London as Coleridge's partner in political activism; and Samuel West as Robert Southey, Coleridge's compassionate friend and the author of "The Three Bears." As they have for centuries, writers like these make rewarding company. "Pandaemonium" is rated PG-13 (Parents strongly cautioned). It includes drug use. Directed by Julien Temple PG-13, 125 minutes From jpjones at ihug.com.au Fri Mar 15 20:10:57 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:10:57 +1100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies In-Reply-To: <3C919A2F.495E9968@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hi New Poetry, My first poet to this list after lurking a while. There's The Monkey's Mask by Australian director Samantha Lang based on Australian poet Dorothy Porter's lesbian detective verse novel of the same name and starring Susie Porter and American actress Kelly McGillis. The script uses almost entirely the lines (heavily edited and rearranged) from the poem. Porter, wisely, chose not to write the script. The film's OK if a bit coldly directed. On things Australian there's a very old film based on the CJ Dennis poem Songs of a Sentimental Bloke. There's numerous Oscar Wilde films including the recentish Stepehn Fry one as well as the Man with a Green Carnation. Also plenty of EA Poe films plus films based on The Raven. My Left Foot Naked Lunch Cocteau's Orphee Henry Fool Remember Richard Chamberlain as Byron in Lady Caroline Lamb? I think it was Jeff Goldblum playing Ginsberg in Heartbeat. The Barretts of Wimpole Street. Did someone mention A Fine Madness? I think so. Sean Connery also played a writer in Finding Forrester. Not a great movie. Good, though a little slow biopic on Cavafy by Greek film maker whose name escapes me. Anyway, just my two bits worth. Cheers, Jill Jones _________________________________ Jill Jones 50 Ruby Street Marrickville NSW 2204 AUSTRALIA jpjones at ihug.com.au http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones From jpjones at ihug.com.au Fri Mar 15 20:15:13 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:15:13 +1100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 16/3/02 12:10 PM, Jill Jones at jpjones at ihug.com.au wrote: > Hi New Poetry, > > My first poet to this list after lurking a while. Oops, there's a slip. 'My first post' of course, that should read. JJ _________________________________ Jill Jones 50 Ruby Street Marrickville NSW 2204 AUSTRALIA jpjones at ihug.com.au http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sat Mar 16 01:21:13 2002 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 22:21:13 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20020315222113.010884@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> We rented this on DVD & watched it tonight. Execrable film. Visually smart, lovely even, but stupid in every other way I can think of. It would be better to remain unknown forever than to have such use made of one's life. Wendy wrote: >Romantic Poets Offer Rewarding Company > > By LAWRENCE VAN GELDER > > L iterate and handsome, >"Pandaemonium" examines > the relationship between the >English romantic poets > Samuel Taylor Coleridge >(1772-1834) and William > Wordsworth (1770-1850) as a drama of >friendship, rivalry, > ambition, betrayal and political intrigue >in an era of recognizable parallels to recent decades. > > So, working from a screenplay by Frank >Cottrell Boyce ("Hilary and Jackie"), the director, > Julien Temple ("Absolute Beginners"), >infuses his film with elements of political rebelliousness > colored by the French Revolution, >government surveillance and repression, utopianism, > scientific innovation, respect for nature, >drug use and popular stardom of the sort that > prompts the press to clamor and young >women to swoon. > > In graceful underscoring as he makes >telling visual and narrative use of the beauteous > landscape of lakes and shores and hills >and fields and villages that nourished the imagination of > these poets, Mr. Temple from time to time >slashes the pale blue sky over his England with the > diagonal white contrail of a jet aircraft. > > > Clearly the filmmakers' sympathies lie >with Coleridge, whose fevered mind, stoked with the > tincture of opium called laudanum, gave >the world "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" and > "Kubla Khan." To Wordsworth they ascribe >not only base motives but also an often > earthbound literary sensibility elevated >by Dorothy, his perceptively critical proto-feminist > sister, whose passion for a receptive >Coleridge is inhibited by his marriage, his fatherhood and > occasional untimely intrusions. > > Films like "Pandaemonium," in which a >visual medium grapples with literary art, often founder > in their depiction of creation, but Mr. >Temple and Mr. Boyce bring subtle ridicule to > Wordsworth's peripatetic dictation to >Dorothy, and they ably transmit the hellish torture and > triumph of Coleridge's nightmare journeys >into creativity. > > The two poets in the film ? which opens >today at the Village East (Second Avenue at 12th > Street, East Village), are admirably >portrayed. Linus Roache ("The Wings of the Dove") plays > the anguished, hot-blooded Coleridge and >John Hannah ("Four Weddings and a Funeral") is > the comparably repressed Wordsworth. The >fine cast includes Emily Woof as Dorothy > Wordsworth, Samantha Morton as Coleridge's >patient wife, Sara; Emma Fielding as > Wordsworth's chilly spouse, Mary; Andy >Serkis as John Thelwell, tortured in the Tower of > London as Coleridge's partner in political >activism; and Samuel West as Robert Southey, > Coleridge's compassionate friend and the >author of "The Three Bears." > > As they have for centuries, writers like >these make rewarding company. > > "Pandaemonium" is rated PG-13 (Parents >strongly cautioned). It includes drug use. > > Directed by Julien Temple > PG-13, 125 minutes >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 15 22:48:08 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34 at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:48:08 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: gossip References: Message-ID: <3C92C075.8F33D071@earthlink.net> JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/15/02 2:41:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, > odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes: > > > And in "Mindwalk" a Neruda poem is used to sum up the entire two-hour > > talkfest between Liv Ullman and Sam Waterston...). For some reason I have > > not > > seen it, although a lot of people have told me I would probably like it. > No, I've seen "Mindwalk," but not "Il Postino." > Moira, it's a good one. I don't remember the Neruda poem. I do seem > to remember the Heard character reciting from memory "All My Pretty > Towns" (title?) by Kenneth Patchen. Yes, right at the end. The Neruda poem is maybe about fifteen-twenty minutes from the end; it's that one with all the creatures of the sea. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 15 22:49:18 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34 at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:49:18 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies References: <10.1b7d4e6a.29c37412@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C92C0BB.A4B58E23@earthlink.net> JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Moira, I remember a particular line that I believe Eliot (Defoe) utters twice > in the course of the movie: Eliot says poetry is "a mug's game." It struck me > as > somewhat odd & a little outofkeeping with the Eliot sensibility I see/read > between the lines of his essays. As far as I know that's a pretty famous Eliot quote....I don't know what the context is, though. I prefer Graham Greene's summing-up of the profession: "A sort of life." Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 15 22:52:36 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34 at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 20:52:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies References: <145.b1fc311.29c3995a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C92C181.8ECF2E05@earthlink.net> > A Man in Love...Peter Coyote, playing an actor, finds a new romance > in the Italian countryside while on location shooting a movie about the > life of Cesare Pavese Features Jamie Lee Curtis as Coyote's wife and Greta Schacci as the woman cast as Pavese's last love who has an affair with Peter Coyote's character. Not terribly much about Pavese in it, although the scenes from the supposed film they're shooting are surprisingly affecting. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Mar 16 00:14:12 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 00:14:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Keith Gunderson, "On Trying to Recollect . . ." Message-ID: Here's another Keith Gunderson poem especially for all you jazz freaks out there. You know who you are. On Trying to Recollect an Important Evening Spent Listening to Doc Evans' Group Play "Muskrat Ramble," "When the Saints Go Marching In," Et Al. *allegro* all gone rag-bagged battered up memories Evans Doc jazzpro coro net king. clarineting drum drubbing out-of-town roadhouse heard back by St. Paul happy old Chi. me just young guy gulping down setups no-bond bourbon friends and a girl. married her carried her far out of St. Paul far out of roadhouse and neck-a-lot lights. everything that night now like those cats thinking on happy Chi and them before. no more no way no doors no keys all gone rag-bagged battered up memories. --Keith Gunderson Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat Mar 16 00:31:14 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 00:31:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies References: <145.b1fc311.29c3995a@aol.com> <3C92C181.8ECF2E05@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006a01c1ccab$e622d180$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> How about movies adapted from poems? Robert Ryan in Joseph Moncure March's "The Set-Up." From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Mar 16 07:04:09 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 05:04:09 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Announcement References: <20020315222113.010884@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <3C9334B8.30B5AE70@earthlink.net> The Spring, 2002 issue of The Salt River Review has reached its final evolutionary stage with the addition of "The River," by Gaston Baquero, translated by Greg Simon & Steven F. White. It is online, with: Poetry by Gaston Baquero, David Graham, David Howard, Rhoda Janzen, Laura Jensen, Michael Karl (Ritchie), Janine Kelley, Muriel Nelson, Anthony Robinson, Pamela Stewart, Robert Sward, Ian Randall Wilson, & Vasilis Zambaras. Creative non-fiction by Laraine Herring & Helen Ruggieri. Fiction by Michael Anguiano, Dylan Maiden, & Sylvia Wheeler. The Salt River Review: James Cervantes: Salt River Review: Poetserv: Homepage: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Readings: From khodges at softhome.net Sat Mar 16 07:44:59 2002 From: khodges at softhome.net (Kim Hodges) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 04:44:59 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies In-Reply-To: <145.b1fc311.29c3995a@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020316043951.0229a5c0@pop.softhome.net> I saw Il Postino recently and loved it. But to go more low-brow: Whitman's Leaves of Grass figured heavily in a recent episode of Mutant X. One of the good mutants reads it or hunts for it throughout, and at the end, he gives it to one of the reformed bad mutants, apparently to help her calm down and control her electromagnetic powers. Then to top it off, another copy is given to the good mutant to replace the one he gave away ... I don't really watch this stuff, it just came on the TV. :) - Kim From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat Mar 16 10:05:44 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:05:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020316043951.0229a5c0@pop.softhome.net> Message-ID: <008a01c1ccfc$0d3226e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> One of the best poet movies is the movie version of Pat Barker's "Regenerations," also one of the best poet novels, about the treatment of Siegfried Sassoon and Wilfred Owen at Craiglockhart. This experience -- the movie and the novel -- also brought me back to the poetry of Sassoon. Tad From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Mar 16 10:48:20 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:48:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies In-Reply-To: <006a01c1ccab$e622d180$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: { How about movies adapted from poems? Robert Ryan in Joseph Moncure March's { "The Set-Up." Before they're all named individually, I'll mention more broadly all those movies flowing out of Homer, the Greek playwrights, Shakespeare, Moliere, Racine, etc. etc. etc. Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From gmcvay at patriot.net Sat Mar 16 10:55:29 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:55:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh yeah! Hal makes mention of Homer... this would obviously include O Brother, Where Art Thou? which has everything from sirens and a Cyclops to a trio of extraordinarily annoying child singers. Okay, I lied, the Peasall sisters weren't in Homer--lucky sod. Gwyn --- "We share half our genome with the banana. This is more evident in some of my acquaintances than others." Sir Robert May, President of the Royal Society of London From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Mar 16 11:15:29 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 11:15:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An NYC toot of the horn In-Reply-To: <20020313190207.17998.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: { I also wish our listmembers would blow their own horns { a little more. I'd like to know who's giving readings, { and where. Not all that many will be within driving { distance of me, but some might be. My wife Lynda Schor will be reading recent fiction Wednesday evening in a series of three readings by members of the faculty at the Eugene Lang College of the New School University. Here's the line-up: Weds., March 20 6:00 Lynda Schor Henry Shapiro Weds., April 17 6:00 Jan Clausen Jane Lazarre Weds., May 1 6:00 Pablo Medina Jaime Manrique Elana Greenfield All readings @ the Lang Student Center 64 W. 11th St. NYC Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Sat Mar 16 13:37:48 2002 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:37:48 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020316103746.00dddd48@medicine.nodak.edu> At 12:31 AM 3/16/02 -0500, theoldmole wrote: >How about movies adapted from poems? Robert Ryan in Joseph Moncure March's >"The Set-Up." > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Depends how far down we get to reach. When I was a kid (early Jurassic, I think), we got to watch a G-rated version of what would have been a bodice-ripper adaptation of Noyes' "The Highwayman"... Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat Mar 16 11:50:29 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 11:50:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An NYC toot of the horn References: Message-ID: <00b901c1cd0a$af422800$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I wish I could be there for Lynda's reading. I'm a great fan of her work. Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 11:15 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] An NYC toot of the horn > > { I also wish our listmembers would blow their own horns > { a little more. I'd like to know who's giving readings, > { and where. Not all that many will be within driving > { distance of me, but some might be. > > My wife Lynda Schor will be reading recent fiction Wednesday > evening in a series of three readings by members of the faculty > at the Eugene Lang College of the New School University. Here's > the line-up: > > Weds., March 20 > 6:00 > Lynda Schor > Henry Shapiro > > Weds., April 17 > 6:00 > Jan Clausen > Jane Lazarre > > Weds., May 1 > 6:00 > Pablo Medina > Jaime Manrique > Elana Greenfield > > All readings @ the Lang Student Center > 64 W. 11th St. > NYC > > > Hal Serving the tri-state area. > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Mar 16 12:03:18 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:03:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An NYC toot of the horn In-Reply-To: <00b901c1cd0a$af422800$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: { I wish I could be there for Lynda's reading. I'm a great fan of her work. Thanks, Tad. I'll tell her you said so. If you want a second chance, though, she, along with Jim Cervantes and me, will be reading here at Westbeth on Sunday evening, April 14th at 7pm. I'll send another announcement of that reading anon. Hal "Good work, good life, good love, goodbye oppression." --Lynda's recent fortune cookie Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat Mar 16 12:16:58 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:16:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An NYC toot of the horn References: Message-ID: <00cc01c1cd0e$61b877c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Three for the price of one! I'll try very hard to make that one. Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 12:03 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] An NYC toot of the horn > > { I wish I could be there for Lynda's reading. I'm a great fan of her work. > > Thanks, Tad. I'll tell her you said so. If you want a second chance, > though, she, along with Jim Cervantes and me, will be reading here > at Westbeth on Sunday evening, April 14th at 7pm. I'll send another > announcement of that reading anon. > > Hal "Good work, good life, good love, > goodbye oppression." > --Lynda's recent fortune cookie > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Mar 16 12:55:27 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:55:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An NYC toot of the horn In-Reply-To: <00cc01c1cd0e$61b877c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: No charge. Even better! Hal { Three for the price of one! I'll try very hard to make that one. { { { { Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery { at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards { { { ----- Original Message ----- { From: "Halvard Johnson" { To: { Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 12:03 PM { Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] An NYC toot of the horn { { { > { > { I wish I could be there for Lynda's reading. I'm a great fan of her { work. { > { > Thanks, Tad. I'll tell her you said so. If you want a second chance, { > though, she, along with Jim Cervantes and me, will be reading here { > at Westbeth on Sunday evening, April 14th at 7pm. I'll send another { > announcement of that reading anon. { > { > Hal "Good work, good life, good love, { > goodbye oppression." { > --Lynda's recent fortune cookie { > { > Halvard Johnson { > =============== { > email: halvard at earthlink.net { > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { > { > _______________________________________________ { > New-Poetry mailing list { > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From JforJames at aol.com Sat Mar 16 17:18:52 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:18:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies Message-ID: <4d.1adb629a.29c51ecc@aol.com> Another one I saw this past year just came to me.... Eternity and A Day...with Bruno Ganz as a Greek poet whose life is in a drainswirl. He meets a young Albanian street urchin and they go on a journey. About a 1/3 too long for its own good; but some beautiful, evocative and existential scenes. Finnegan From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Mar 16 18:01:50 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 18:01:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Gunter Grass, "Sleepless" Message-ID: Another for the insomniacs among us-- Sleepless My breath missed the needle's eye. Now I must count and homeward leaf down the stairs. But the crawling forays end in watery ditches, in which tadpoles . . . Count up again. My playback reel gabbles its third decade. The bed leaves for a journey. And everywhere The Customs interpose: What's in your luggage? Three socks, five shoes, a fog machine.-- In several languages they are counted up: the stars, the sheep, the tanks, the voices . . . A provisional sum is counted out. --Gunter Grass, tr. Michael Hamburger Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Sat Mar 16 17:47:09 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 15:47:09 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Gunter Grass, "Sleepless" References: Message-ID: <3C93CB65.1C9A23BC@earthlink.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > Another for the insomniacs among us-- Has there ever been an anthology of poems about insomnia? I ask this seriously. Reading the section "Postscript: The Art of Illness" in Floyd Skloot's "The Night-Side" makes me want to ask this question about illness, too, but I'm sure there are at least a couple of anthologies about that. But insomnia? Moira Russell Seattle, WA From JforJames at aol.com Sat Mar 16 20:14:05 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 20:14:05 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies Message-ID: In a message dated 3/16/02 7:50:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, khodges at softhome.net writes: << But to go more low-brow: Whitman's Leaves of Grass figured heavily in a recent episode of Mutant X. One of the good mutants reads it or hunts for it throughout, and at the end, he gives it to one of the reformed bad mutants, apparently to help her calm down and control her electromagnetic powers. Then to top it off, another copy is given to the good mutant to replace the one he gave away ... I don't really watch this stuff, it just came on the TV. :) >> Kim, your last comment reminds that all the cons in stir say they're innocent. But on the subject of mutants reciting poetry: A pretty much forgettable film, other than Val Kilmer whom I always enjoy, The Island of Dr. Moreau (HG Wells) from a few year back featured one of the Doctor's (Brando) mutant offspring reciting Yeats' The Second Coming. Really leaning on that concluding question "And what rough beast, its hour come round at last/Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?" Finnegan From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Sat Mar 16 19:31:20 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:31:20 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies References: Message-ID: <3C93E3D5.EFD2D10F@earthlink.net> JforJames at aol.com wrote: > I don't really watch this stuff, it just came on the TV. :) >> > > Kim, your last comment reminds that all the cons in stir say > they're innocent. Well, I won't say I watched "Babylon 5" by accident, because it was a good show. And it also prominently featured Yeats' "Second Coming," as well as Tennyson's "Ulysses" (I think I'm remembering that title correctly). And there was also the information in it that any Emily Dickinson poem can be sung to the tune of "Yellow Rose of Texas." Who says it's a vast wasteland? Moira Russell Seattle, WA From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat Mar 16 20:46:38 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 20:46:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies References: <3C93E3D5.EFD2D10F@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001901c1cd55$94f0ae40$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> The best poetry TV show was an episode of LA Law, where the lawyers take on the case of a tweedy academic who has gone into partnership with an LA promoter to produce a poetry expo, and who is horrified to discover that his partner plans to turn it into tasteless exploitation. It's full of really funny gags that were clearly written by someone who understood the contemporary poetry scene. In the end, the professor and the promoter work out their differences; the professor confesses to Douglas Brackman that he really does love Kipling, and quotes "Danny Deever" -- and best of all, at the expo itself, Mamie Van Doren recites "Howl." This is one of my two favorite scenes in screen history -- the other being "The Freshman," when Bert Parks sings "Maggie's Farm." Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "odysseus34" To: Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 7:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet movies > > > JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > I don't really watch this stuff, it just came on the TV. :) >> > > > > Kim, your last comment reminds that all the cons in stir say > > they're innocent. > > Well, I won't say I watched "Babylon 5" by accident, because it was a > good show. And it also prominently featured Yeats' "Second Coming," as > well as Tennyson's "Ulysses" (I think I'm remembering that title > correctly). And there was also the information in it that any Emily > Dickinson poem can be sung to the tune of "Yellow Rose of Texas." Who > says it's a vast wasteland? > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jpjones at ihug.com.au Sat Mar 16 20:54:49 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 12:54:49 +1100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 17/3/02 12:14 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > The Island of Dr. Moreau (HG Wells) > from a few year back featured one of the Doctor's (Brando) mutant > offspring reciting Yeats' The Second Coming. Really > leaning on that concluding question "And what rough beast, > its hour come round at last/Slouches toward Bethlehem > to be born?" The movie Sophie's Choice made much of the Emily Dickinson poem: Ample make this bed. Make this bed with awe ... etc. Cheers, Jill _________________________________ Jill Jones 50 Ruby Street Marrickville NSW 2204 AUSTRALIA jpjones at ihug.com.au http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Mar 16 22:29:20 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 22:29:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Gunter Grass, "Sleepless" In-Reply-To: <3C93CB65.1C9A23BC@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Well, I managed to track one down for you, Moira. I myself haven't seen it, but then I'm not troubled by insomnia. *Acquainted With the Night: Insomnia Poems* (Columbia University Press). And Charles Simic has a book of poems called *Hotel Insomnia*--just to round out your collections. Sweet dreams. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { Halvard Johnson wrote: { { > Another for the insomniacs among us-- { { Has there ever been an anthology of poems about insomnia? I ask this { seriously. Reading the section "Postscript: The Art of Illness" in { Floyd Skloot's "The Night-Side" makes me want to ask this question about { illness, too, but I'm sure there are at least a couple of anthologies { about that. But insomnia? { { Moira Russell { Seattle, WA { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From JforJames at aol.com Sat Mar 16 22:32:47 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 22:32:47 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies Message-ID: <8e.24a372ee.29c5685f@aol.com> In a message dated 3/15/02 8:13:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, jpjones at ihug.com.au writes: << though a little slow biopic on Cavafy by Greek film maker whose name escapes me. >> Jill, if the title comes to you, please let me/us know... I'd be interested in trying to see a copy. Finnegan From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Mar 16 22:35:00 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 22:35:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another insomnia poem: Lisa Russ Spaar, "Edison's Insomnia" Message-ID: Lisa Russ Spaar is the editor of the Columbia Univ. Press anthology of insomnia poems I just mentioned. If this version's mucked up, you'll find it in the archives at Poetry Daily somewhen in the summer of Ought-One. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard Edison's Insomnia As the early-evening Metroliner slows and sidles at dream-flight height through the apocalyptic back lots and whistle stops of New Brunswick and Metuchen and Menlo Park, I think of the insomnia of Thomas Edison, awake at 2 AM, his cot shoved against a rack of galvanic batteries in the gas-lit den of his laboratory. Some of the men are still at work on his latest rush of ideas ? boiling up insulating compounds, experimenting with vacuums ? while Edison scribbles in a notebook another deft, driven ink drawing: florid, fecund and amoebic improvisations on his notions for the spiral burner, and the invention that will become his "big bonanza," the electric light. But this is boy culture ? it's not all progress ? and a litter of cheap cigar stubs and sandwich crusts clutters the tabletop of burners and spectroscopes. It's paddle your own canoe, and late-night pranks ? bets on who can produce the highest voltage on a hand-cranked generator, guzzling beer into their black bear mascot, or rigging an induction coil to the washstand to shock the German glassblower. And as the train lurches past the strung-up streetlamps of outer Elizabeth, each one-legged in its own pool of spotlit asphalt, I consider the insomnia of the first Mrs. Edison, Mary Stillwell ? whose name Mr. E once dismissively doodled into "stillsick" ? alone for years of nights under her moon-drained counterpane, a revolver under her pillow, before she died of "congestion of the brain." On the verge of night like this, gliding toward the city through the radiant, industrial hamlets of chemical plants, past blacked-out yards of abandoned, blown-windowed, turn- of-the-century factories, and then, beyond sumac, glimpses of sub-shops and gas stations and neon-edged corner bars ? passing through this way, it is possible to believe in coal and drills and clocks, in the America of grist- mills, smokestacks, and gears, of escapements and steam engines ? of foundries and forges and shops ? and in our fathers, in droves from the tract houses, who rode these rails out each dawn, to the labs and offices of Westinghouse and General Electric, Con Edison and Merck, and then rode them back again each night to families moored in fragile, incandescent rooms. There's the skyline now, ablaze and looking ? for all its steepled, invisible rave of technospur and cyberwave ? like the complex, constellar circuitry of the inside of something. I learned in school that the nation extinguished itself for one dark, full, silent minute that October that he died. And here's the glare-shattered river, the bridge, the strum and hurtle of light through girders, then the earth, blasted open to admit and halt us. Lisa Russ Spaar The Virginia Quarterly Review Volume 77, Number 3 Summer 2001 From JforJames at aol.com Sat Mar 16 22:46:22 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 22:46:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies Message-ID: Poet films... The "straight-up" biopic The "embellished" (hollywooed) life of the poet/lives of poets The fictional poet figure (often at odds with societal norms) The central character is a poet at heart or reads poetry (scriptwriter shorthand for the sensitive/complex type) An ancillary character is a poet, lending a literary dimension to script Poetry films... A poem (often famous) introduced as a device The poem used as plot/subtext Finnegan From jpjones at ihug.com.au Sat Mar 16 23:27:25 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:27:25 +1100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies In-Reply-To: <8e.24a372ee.29c5685f@aol.com> Message-ID: on 17/3/02 2:32 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/15/02 8:13:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, > jpjones at ihug.com.au writes: > > << though a little slow biopic on Cavafy by Greek film maker whose name > escapes me. >>> > Jill, if the title comes to you, please let me/us know... > I'd be interested in trying to see a copy. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Hi Finnegan, The movie is simply called Cavafy or Kavafis, the director was Yiannis Smaragdis and was first released in 1996. Starred Dimitri Katalifos as Kavafis. The music was by Vangelis. I previewed a video tape of it a few years ago when we ran a Greek film festival at the State Library of NSW but so far as I know it received no other release in Australia. Not sure about anywhere else. It uses the device of Kavafis looking back over his life as he lies dying. It's a little art housey and slow but it ends, predictably I guess but movingly, with a recitation of Ithaka. Cheers, Jill _________________________________ Jill Jones 50 Ruby Street Marrickville NSW 2204 AUSTRALIA jpjones at ihug.com.au http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Sat Mar 16 23:59:13 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34 at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 21:59:13 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies References: Message-ID: <3C942295.F01E97D@earthlink.net> Jill Jones wrote: > The movie is simply called Cavafy or Kavafis, the director was Yiannis > Smaragdis and was first released in 1996. Starred Dimitri Katalifos as > Kavafis. The music was by Vangelis. This would appear to be "Kavafis," which has this entry on imdb.com: http://us.imdb.com/Title?0115849 I love IMDB. Not sure where you could get a copy of this movie, but there are some art-house mailing list video stores, and there must be some rare video stores online. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sun Mar 17 03:26:22 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 00:26:22 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020316043951.0229a5c0@pop.softhome.net> Message-ID: <3C94532D.AE5726B7@earthlink.net> Did anybody mention Reuben Reuben Kim Hodges wrote: > I saw Il Postino recently and loved it. But to go more > low-brow: Whitman's Leaves of Grass figured heavily > in a recent episode of Mutant X. One of the good mutants > reads it or hunts for it throughout, and at the end, he > gives it to one of the reformed bad mutants, apparently > to help her calm down and control her electromagnetic > powers. Then to top it off, another copy is given to the > good mutant to replace the one he gave away ... > > I don't really watch this stuff, it just came on the TV. :) > > - Kim > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From hruggier at localnet.com Sun Mar 17 11:28:00 2002 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 11:28:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies References: <3C93E3D5.EFD2D10F@earthlink.net> <001901c1cd55$94f0ae40$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <3C94C410.4568393E@localnet.com> You wouldn't happen to have taped that episode of LA Law where Mamie Van Doren reads "Howl" ? I would do almost anything to see/hear that. Helen Ruggieri theoldmole wrote: > The best poetry TV show was an episode of LA Law, where the lawyers take on > the case of a tweedy academic who has gone into partnership with an LA > promoter to produce a poetry expo, and who is horrified to discover that his > partner plans to turn it into tasteless exploitation. > > It's full of really funny gags that were clearly written by someone who > understood the contemporary poetry scene. In the end, the professor and the > promoter work out their differences; the professor confesses to Douglas > Brackman that he really does love Kipling, and quotes "Danny Deever" -- and > best of all, at the expo itself, Mamie Van Doren recites "Howl." > > This is one of my two favorite scenes in screen history -- the other being > "The Freshman," when Bert Parks sings "Maggie's Farm." > > Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery > at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "odysseus34" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 7:31 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet movies > > > > > > > JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > > > I don't really watch this stuff, it just came on the TV. :) >> > > > > > > Kim, your last comment reminds that all the cons in stir say > > > they're innocent. > > > > Well, I won't say I watched "Babylon 5" by accident, because it was a > > good show. And it also prominently featured Yeats' "Second Coming," as > > well as Tennyson's "Ulysses" (I think I'm remembering that title > > correctly). And there was also the information in it that any Emily > > Dickinson poem can be sung to the tune of "Yellow Rose of Texas." Who > > says it's a vast wasteland? > > > > Moira Russell > > Seattle, WA > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Mar 17 11:21:20 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 11:21:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies References: <3C93E3D5.EFD2D10F@earthlink.net> <001901c1cd55$94f0ae40$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <3C94C410.4568393E@localnet.com> Message-ID: <000d01c1cdcf$c6357100$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I > You wouldn't happen to have taped that episode of LA Law where Mamie Van Doren > reads "Howl" ? I would do almost anything to see/hear that. > > Helen Ruggieri > If anyone does, I'll take a copy of it too. > > theoldmole wrote: > > > The best poetry TV show was an episode of LA Law, where the lawyers take on > > the case of a tweedy academic who has gone into partnership with an LA > > promoter to produce a poetry expo, and who is horrified to discover that his > > partner plans to turn it into tasteless exploitation. > > > > It's full of really funny gags that were clearly written by someone who > > understood the contemporary poetry scene. In the end, the professor and the > > promoter work out their differences; the professor confesses to Douglas > > Brackman that he really does love Kipling, and quotes "Danny Deever" -- and > > best of all, at the expo itself, Mamie Van Doren recites "Howl." > > > > This is one of my two favorite scenes in screen history -- the other being > > "The Freshman," when Bert Parks sings "Maggie's Farm." > > > > Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery > > at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "odysseus34" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 7:31 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet movies > > > > > > > > > > > JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > I don't really watch this stuff, it just came on the TV. :) >> > > > > > > > > Kim, your last comment reminds that all the cons in stir say > > > > they're innocent. > > > > > > Well, I won't say I watched "Babylon 5" by accident, because it was a > > > good show. And it also prominently featured Yeats' "Second Coming," as > > > well as Tennyson's "Ulysses" (I think I'm remembering that title > > > correctly). And there was also the information in it that any Emily > > > Dickinson poem can be sung to the tune of "Yellow Rose of Texas." Who > > > says it's a vast wasteland? > > > > > > Moira Russell > > > Seattle, WA > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Mar 17 16:37:31 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 16:37:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James Tate, "The Buddhists Have the Ball Field" Message-ID: Because it's nearly spring-- The Buddhists Have the Ball Field The Buddhists have the ball field. Then the teams arrive, nine on one, but only three on the other. The teams confront the Buddhists. The Buddhists present their permit. There is little point in arguing it, for the Buddhists clearly have the permit for the field. And the teams have nothing, not even two complete teams. It occurs to one team manager to interest the Buddhists in joining his team, but the Buddhists won't hear of it. The teams walk away with their heads hung low. A gentle rain begins. It would have been called anyway, they think suddenly. --James Tate Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Mar 17 16:57:17 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 14:57:17 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James Tate, "The Buddhists Have the Ball Field" References: Message-ID: <3C95113E.D1A884E1@earthlink.net> :-) Halvard Johnson wrote: > > Because it's nearly spring-- > > The Buddhists Have the Ball Field > > The Buddhists have the ball field. Then the teams > arrive, nine on one, but only three on the other. > The teams confront the Buddhists. The Buddhists > present their permit. There is little point in > arguing it, for the Buddhists clearly have the > permit for the field. And the teams have nothing, > not even two complete teams. It occurs to one team > manager to interest the Buddhists in joining his > team, but the Buddhists won't hear of it. The teams > walk away with their heads hung low. A gentle rain > begins. It would have been called anyway, they > think suddenly. > > --James Tate > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From rlong at jcws.net Mon Mar 18 11:13:58 2002 From: rlong at jcws.net (Richard Long) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 10:13:58 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring Issue of The 2River View Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020318101257.00bacdc0@pop3.slu.edu> 2River released today the 6.3 (Spring 2002) issue of The 2River View, with new poems by Masour Alajali, John Amen, Grace Bedwell, Teri Browning, Howard Good, Prasenjit Maiti, Spencer Ryan, John Sweet, and Phibby Venable; and musical notations by David Zvanut. You can read it by going to http://www.2River.org and clicking from there. Richard Long ====== 2River www.2River.org From MillB at aol.com Mon Mar 18 15:04:54 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:04:54 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] An NYC toot of the horn Message-ID: Poet James Ragan is reading at Carnegie Hall later this month in NYC. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Mon Mar 18 16:00:04 2002 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 16:00:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FlashPoint 5 Message-ID: <3C965554.547ABC3E@ix.netcom.com> A new issue of FlashPoint magazine is now 'up'. FLASHPOINT #5 Spring 2002 http://www.flashpointmag.com with John Taggart Robert Creeley George Oppen C.P. Cavafy Cris Mazza David Hickman on "Ego, Positivism, and the Smiling Pig of Language Poetry" Brad Haas Mark Scroggins Anastasios Kozaitis Andrew White David Clippinger Burt Kimmelman David Alexander Anthony Wright Jon Potts JR Foley Joe Brennan Carlo Parcelli and the art of Ollie Harrington and Tom Wagner "Sometimes a lively street market, sometimes a no-man's-land." From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Mar 18 17:41:09 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:41:09 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Preamble to a query Message-ID: <3C966D04.2B709C1@earthlink.net> Part of my sabbatical project entails painting a broad picture of electronic publishing of serious literary work (poetry); not e-zines or archives, but substantial, original collections of a quality comparable to those in the Pittsburgh Press Poetry Series, National Poetry Series, Wesleyan, Knopf, St. Martin's etc., as well as some of the newer, though smaller publishers like Sarabande, Ausable, Four Way Books etc. I'm focusing on work that would normally appear in print, not hypertext or hypermedia, where media and content are inseparable. It could be that electronic media is not compatible with work like that indicated above, except in terms of samplers from print publications, or smaller collections like electronic chapbooks, such as those available from Blue Moon Review, Two Rivers, and others, who offer downloads in PDF format. Larger, book-length collections are currently offered in two main, electronically-mediated formats: e-books and print-on-demand, though the audience for those is still quite limited, especially for the kind of work I'm describing. There are, of course, serious concerns that might argue against a poet's choosing to publish a volume electronically: Audience/readership - Is the audience for serious literary work even smaller in the electronic medium? Is the *potential" audience larger? How would one gauge that readership? Promotion/publicity - How does the electronic media stack up against print media in this regard? Reviewing - Does serious literary work published electronically get reviewed in print? The question works the other way around and, yes, print publications do get reviewed in electronic journals. Readability - Probably a moot point in the case of print-on-demand, but still an issue with work available only electronically. As for PDF format, most people I know agree that it's o.k. but not ideal - you get a stack of pages, not a bound volume. Politics/vetting - I've not seen this articulated, but my hunch is most poets would consider electronically published collections a notch of two down in the prestige department - you can't sign or trade screens at AWP, for example; nor is it clear how academe views electronic book publishing. And, I think that there's still a notion floating around out there that there's little or no editorial intervention in electronic publishing, and that it's first cousin to vanity publishing, if not the very thing itself. On the other hand, I have a personal case history to offer: Between 12/10/00 and 3/15/02, there have been 1044 downloads (PDF format) of "Changing the Subject," an electronic chapbook from Blue Moon Review (http://thebluemoon.com/poetry/cts.shtml) which is an exchange in poetry between Halvard Johnson and me. 1044 downloads equals (more or less) two standard print runs of 500 copies. The compleat Changing the Subject is slated for publication in book form this coming fall (Red Hen Press). It will be interesting to see the effect of one on the other. It will also be interesting to find out how similar electronic publication of collections have fared. This long preamble leads to this: I have a short series of questions pertaining to the issues above that I'd like to submit to the list. Your responses, even if subjective, would be of great help, not to mention interesting. *How* you'd like to respond is up to you. You can either respond on the list (if everyone agrees to this) or just send your responses to me privately (the course I'd prefer, and which list managers might prefer). I'll wait a day or two to post the questions, just in case the virtual tomatoes are too numerous from the outset. - Jim James Cervantes: Salt River Review: Poetserv: Homepage: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Readings: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Mar 18 20:53:26 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:53:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] gossip Message-ID: <185.54bc20f.29c7f416@cs.com> In a message dated 3/13/2002 11:28:05 PM Central Standard Time, odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes: > Reputedly Gwyneth Paltrow is signed to play Sylvia. > Better her than Molly Ringwald. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Mar 18 20:59:53 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:59:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet Movies Message-ID: <145.b4673d9.29c7f599@cs.com> The Bride of Frankenstein opens with Byron and the Shelleys discussing ghost stories. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Mar 18 21:09:53 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 21:09:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies Message-ID: <9f.243ba5ec.29c7f7f1@cs.com> Did anyone mention the movie in which Mickey Rourke plays Charles Bukowski? Talk about type-casting. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Mar 18 22:48:40 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 22:48:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James McManus, "My Father's Sunglasses" Message-ID: My Father's Sunglasses The best things in life are pink. My father informed me of this twenty-six years ago. We were waiting in front of the awningless First Bank of Lisle for my mother. It was Saturday morning, late June or early July, and blindingly sunny, even with my cap pulled down low. And it's hotter than hell, said my father. He had on a T-shirt and sweatstained tortoiseshell sunglasses. I was wearing my polyester Bronco League uniform and clutching a brand-new green passbook in my first-baseman's mitt. My savings account had one line, $60.00, money I'd got from relatives for my eighth-grade graduation, plus some I'd made as a caddie. I was rich, I thought then, but I'd started to feel kind of nervous. We were gonna be late for my game, and I had no idea what my father was talking about. --James McManus Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Mar 18 23:32:14 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 23:32:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Six Kirghiz Proverbs Message-ID: Six Kirghiz Proverbs "It comes as the Kirghiz light." --Thomas Pyncheon 1. One who does not respect one's father, will also not respect one's grandfather. 2. Better to have dry farmland than to have a father who is in charge of water distribution. 3. It is as if the Moon gave birth to one's front and the Sun gave birth to one's back. 4. One who has six sons has cattle in six places. 5. Money is good in an urban area. 6. A stupid man builds a house, an intelligent person makes friends. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Mar 19 06:32:36 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 06:32:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James McManus, "My Father's Sunglasses" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C96DB84.25926.160395@localhost> > My Father's Sunglasses > James McManus > The best things in life are pink. My father > informed me of this twenty-six years ago. We were waiting > in front of the awningless First Bank of Lisle for my mother. > It was Saturday morning, late June or early July, and blindingly > sunny, even with my cap pulled down low. And it's hotter than hell, > said my father. He had on a T-shirt and sweatstained tortoiseshell > sunglasses. I was wearing my polyester Bronco League uniform > and clutching a brand-new green passbook in my first-baseman's mitt. > My savings account had one line, $60.00, money I'd got > from relatives for my eighth-grade graduation, plus > some I'd made as a caddie. I was rich, I thought > then, but I'd started to feel kind of nervous. > We were gonna be late for my game, and I had no idea > what my father was talking about. Why is this pointless anecdote, which seems to end right where a good story would start, a poem? As the beginning of a short story or novel or memoir this lineated prose would be interesting. But what makes it a poem? That someone *called* it a poem? Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Mar 19 06:35:43 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 03:35:43 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James McManus, "My Father's Sunglasses" References: <3C96DB84.25926.160395@localhost> Message-ID: <3C97228F.A7469C8F@earthlink.net> Marcus--- In this case I agree with what seems to be your *rhetorical* questions---but curious if you're more specifically criticizing it on the grounds of being a "pointless anecdote" or on the grounds of being "lineated prose?" Chris Marcus Bales wrote: > > My Father's Sunglasses > > James McManus > > The best things in life are pink. My father > > informed me of this twenty-six years ago. We were waiting > > in front of the awningless First Bank of Lisle for my mother. > > It was Saturday morning, late June or early July, and blindingly > > sunny, even with my cap pulled down low. And it's hotter than hell, > > said my father. He had on a T-shirt and sweatstained tortoiseshell > > sunglasses. I was wearing my polyester Bronco League uniform > > and clutching a brand-new green passbook in my first-baseman's mitt. > > My savings account had one line, $60.00, money I'd got > > from relatives for my eighth-grade graduation, plus > > some I'd made as a caddie. I was rich, I thought > > then, but I'd started to feel kind of nervous. > > We were gonna be late for my game, and I had no idea > > what my father was talking about. > > Why is this pointless anecdote, which seems to end right where a > good story would start, a poem? As the beginning of a short story > or novel or memoir this lineated prose would be interesting. But > what makes it a poem? That someone *called* it a poem? > > Marcus Bales > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Mar 19 06:56:48 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 06:56:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James McManus, "My Father's Sunglasses" In-Reply-To: <3C97228F.A7469C8F@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3C96E130.21309.2C2CBD@localhost> > In this case I agree with what seems to be your *rhetorical* > questions---but curious if you're more specifically criticizing > it on the grounds of being a "pointless anecdote" or on the > grounds of being "lineated prose?" Well, my questions are not intended to be rhetorical -- I'm hoping that on a list titled "New Poetry" on which someone posts something claiming, I imagine, to *be* a "new poem", that there will be those who can articulate why this is in fact a "new poem" and not merely a pointless anecdote in lineated prose. It seems to me that it's possible to criticize this piece of work on the grounds that it is *both* pointless as it stands *and* merely lineated prose. In fact, if I encountered this as prose, as the first few sentences of a short story, I would certainly read on, but I don't get anything remotely resembling the careful selection of detail and nuance, nor the sense of heightened or intensified language, that seem to me to be among the requirements to make a claim that here there be poetry. What makes this a poem? M > Marcus Bales wrote: > > > > My Father's Sunglasses > > > James McManus > > > The best things in life are pink. My father > > > informed me of this twenty-six years ago. We were waiting > > > in front of the awningless First Bank of Lisle for my mother. > > > It was Saturday morning, late June or early July, and blindingly > > > sunny, even with my cap pulled down low. And it's hotter than hell, > > > said my father. He had on a T-shirt and sweatstained tortoiseshell > > > sunglasses. I was wearing my polyester Bronco League uniform > > > and clutching a brand-new green passbook in my first-baseman's mitt. > > > My savings account had one line, $60.00, money I'd got > > > from relatives for my eighth-grade graduation, plus > > > some I'd made as a caddie. I was rich, I thought > > > then, but I'd started to feel kind of nervous. > > > We were gonna be late for my game, and I had no idea > > > what my father was talking about. > > > > Why is this pointless anecdote, which seems to end right where a > > good story would start, a poem? As the beginning of a short story > > or novel or memoir this lineated prose would be interesting. But > > what makes it a poem? That someone *called* it a poem? > > > > Marcus Bales > > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Tue Mar 19 11:36:39 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:36:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated Prose Message-ID: <200203191635.g2JGZsk58019@mx15.mx.voyager.net> These are very old debates. I'm never sure what a phrase like "lineated prose" means, I confess, or how one determines the difference between it and various sorts of free verse. Nor am I sure why "lineated prose" is necessarily an insult, for that matter. If the prose is good prose, then putting it in lines surely does the world no harm. I'm utterly comfortable with the "if the author says it's a poem, it's a poem" stance--at least, I'm not going to pour much energy into any quest for a rosetta stone that will define the rules of free verse. That would seem doomed--almost by definition--to failure. In any case, I think Chris S. asks the relevant question here--often when critics make this sort of argument, it seems they blur two matters: the issue of what verse *is*, and the quite distinct question of what *good* verse is. If you believe that only metered verse is poetry, then of course *all* free verse is "lineated prose." Fine: that's when I exit the conversation. If, on the other hand, you admit that free verse has merit, then the fun begins. Robert Creeley and Walt Whitman write very different sorts of free verse, and I would resist any taxonomy that excluded either from the pantheon. In the past century we've also seen many experiments with deliberately "prosy" rhythms and lineation--which for certain kinds of effect seem musical to my ear, rather as Thelonious Monk's odd rhythms have come, with time, to seem "right." Where's the line between effective linebreaking and Pound's arbitrary hacking of prose into lines? Be sure to give me a call when you know the answer to that one! Pound's "sequence of the musical phrase" is lovely, but inherently resistent to definition, seems to me. Here's one of E.P.'s typically pithy bits of advice: "Don't make each line stop dead at the end, and then begin every next line with a heave. Let the beginning of the next line catch the rise of the rhythm wave, unless you want a definite longish pause." Well, that's hardly adequate, is it? Heavily end-stopped lines, as in Whitman, can be every bit as musically effective as heavily enjambed ones. David Graham ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ---------- >From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James McManus, "My Father's Sunglasses" >Date: Tue, Mar 19, 2002, 5:35 AM > >Marcus--- > >In this case I agree with what seems to be your *rhetorical* >questions---but curious if you're more specifically criticizing >it on the grounds of being a "pointless anecdote" or on the >grounds of being "lineated prose?" > >Chris > >Marcus Bales wrote: > >> > My Father's Sunglasses >> > James McManus >> > The best things in life are pink. My father >> > informed me of this twenty-six years ago. We were waiting >> > in front of the awningless First Bank of Lisle for my mother. >> > It was Saturday morning, late June or early July, and blindingly >> > sunny, even with my cap pulled down low. And it's hotter than hell, >> > said my father. He had on a T-shirt and sweatstained tortoiseshell >> > sunglasses. I was wearing my polyester Bronco League uniform >> > and clutching a brand-new green passbook in my first-baseman's mitt. >> > My savings account had one line, $60.00, money I'd got >> > from relatives for my eighth-grade graduation, plus >> > some I'd made as a caddie. I was rich, I thought >> > then, but I'd started to feel kind of nervous. >> > We were gonna be late for my game, and I had no idea >> > what my father was talking about. >> >> Why is this pointless anecdote, which seems to end right where a >> good story would start, a poem? As the beginning of a short story >> or novel or memoir this lineated prose would be interesting. But >> what makes it a poem? That someone *called* it a poem? >> >> Marcus Bales >> http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Mar 19 12:02:05 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 10:02:05 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] following the preamble . . . Message-ID: <3C976F0E.6CEBE14C@earthlink.net> First, I'd like to apologize to Richard Long and "2 River," for calling the publication "Two Rivers" in the preamble I posted the other day. I did in fact mean "2 River," whose electronic chapbooks are a valuable addition to what's available on the web. Here's the questionnaire. It's not scientific, but it's an attempt to gauge current attitudes and considerations regarding electronic publication. - Jim ======================= Some terms and simplified definitions: P.O.D. = "Print-on-demand"; reader selects text online or at a bookstore, purchases it, and a bound custom text arrives at the bookstore or reader's address within 2 weeks (?); not stocked on bookstore shelves. PDF = Text available online in PDF format; downloaded and printed by reader; free, or available via nominal charge or honor system donation. Online = Text accessible online only; free, or via honor system donation. e-book = Reader purchases text online or at a book or computer store (memory card), downloads and views on one of several handheld devices - this technology is improving constantly. text = book-length manuscript Respond by listing # and letter(s) (ex: "1. b" etc.) or deleting answers that do not apply (ex: "3. If you chose electronic publication, which of the following best characterizes your primary reason(s) for doing so: a) audience") Chance for explanations at the end! 1. If, as a writer, you have a text circulating among print publishers/competitions (unsuccessfully, so far) and you are presented with an offer to have it published electronically by a reputable online publisher, would you: a) opt for electronic publication b) continue submitting to print publishers 2. If you chose electronic publication, which format would you most desire: a) P.O.D. b) PDF c) online d) e-book 3. If you chose electronic publication, which of the following would best characterize your *primary* reason for doing so: a) audience b) promotion/publicity c) reviews d) readability e) desire to experiment with new technology 3a. Which of the following best characterizes your next most important consideration for choosing electronic publication: a) audience b) promotion/publicity c) reviews d) readability e) desire to experiment with new technology 4. If you chose to continue seeking print publication, which of the following would best characterize your *primary* reason for doing so: a) audience b) promotion/publicity c) reviews d) readability e) prestige f) tradition 4a. Which of the following best characterizes your next most important consideration for seeking print publication: a) audience b) promotion/publicity c) reviews d) readability e) prestige f) tradition 5. Are there any considerations re. print vs electronic publication that are more important to you than any of the above? Write comments at bottom. 6. Which of the above are you *most* compelled to expound upon? Write comments at bottom. 7. If you have recently read an electronically mediated book or chapbook, in which format(s) did you read it: a) P.O.D. b) PDF c) online d) e-book 7a. How many texts have you read in *any* of the above formats: _____ 8. Do you regularly read as many electronic publications (any kind) as you do print publications: a)Yes b) Almost as many c) Much less 9. If individual works of yours have been published electronically, what is the approximate ratio of your print publications to your electronic publications: ________ 10. If you have had a collection of work (chapbook or book) published electronically, what are the number of downloads to date? _________ James Cervantes: Salt River Review: Poetserv: Homepage: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Readings: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Mar 19 12:11:28 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 12:11:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James McManus, "My Father's Sunglasses" Message-ID: <5f.24466228.29c8cb40@cs.com> In a message dated 3/19/2002 5:49:32 AM Central Standard Time, mbales at cybergate.net writes: > > What makes this a poem? > > A better question might be: what makes this a narrative (or not). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Mar 19 12:46:03 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 09:46:03 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James McManus, "My Father's Sunglasses" References: <5f.24466228.29c8cb40@cs.com> Message-ID: <3C97795B.9B6579C8@earthlink.net> the flimsy device of pink for girls, the waiting for mother and the man's man's man's (well, "boy's life") world? Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/19/2002 5:49:32 AM Central Standard Time, > mbales at cybergate.net writes: > > > >> >> What makes this a poem? > > A better question might be: what makes this a narrative (or not). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Mar 19 13:18:48 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:18:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated Prose In-Reply-To: <200203191635.g2JGZsk58019@mx15.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020319130111.00aa3c30@postoffice.brown.edu> Seems like the most practical thing to say is that when it's lineated it's verse. Whether it's poetry depends, I think, on whether it makes aesthetic use of what Jan Mukarovsky, the Czech philologist, defines as poetry's distinctive characteristic: the integrating of two different rhythms: the rhythm of the sentence and the rhythm of the line as a discrete element. According to Mukarovsky, both rhythms are binary (perhaps based on the rhythm of breathing): each combines a strong and a weak (or long and short) part. Pound's comment about using enjambment to ride the crest of the lines' rhythms makes a lot of sense to me. End-stopped lines would be used with a similar awareness of the extended syntactical movement of the poem. Henry ******************************************************** HG afloat: www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Mar 19 14:15:14 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (mbales at cybergate.net) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:15:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated Prose In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020319130111.00aa3c30@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <200203191635.g2JGZsk58019@mx15.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3C9747F2.8398.195130@localhost> Henry: > ... poetry's distinctive characteristic: > the integrating of two different rhythms: the rhythm of the sentence and > the rhythm of the line as a discrete element. According to Mukarovsky, > both rhythms are binary (perhaps based on the rhythm of breathing): each > combines a strong and a weak (or long and short) part. > Pound's comment about using enjambment to ride the crest of the lines' > rhythms makes a lot of sense to me. End-stopped lines would be used with a > similar awareness of the extended syntactical movement of the poem. And the question I ask is this: what in the poem in question suggests to you, or to anyone else on the list who has an opinion, that this poet has caught either or both of these metaphorical waves? Far from having done so, it seems to me, this is mere prose arbitrarily cut up into ragged-edge-right lines, with no tension that I can see holding the rhythm of the sentence against the rhythm of any poetic line. mbales at oh.verio.net From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Mar 19 14:25:12 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (mbales at cybergate.net) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:25:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated Prose In-Reply-To: <200203191635.g2JGZsk58019@mx15.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3C974A48.19297.22738C@localhost> Mr Graham: > ... I'm never sure what a phrase like "lineated > prose" means ... [n]or am I sure why "lineated prose" is necessarily an insult, for that > matter. If the prose is good prose, then putting it in lines surely does > the world no harm.<< I don't say it's an insult; I just question whether lineating prose makes it any better, or even any different, than prose itself. Can arbitrary lineation create a poem out of prose? Can even clever lineation, changing nothing else in the prose, create a poem out of prose? > I'm utterly comfortable with the "if the author says it's a poem, it's a > poem" stance ... often when > critics make this sort of argument, it seems they blur two matters: the > issue of what verse *is*, and the quite distinct question of what *good* > verse is.<< Yes, first the question is what makes a poem a poem and then the next question is what makes a poem good or bad. Using the "if the author says it's a poem it is a poem" stance, then, let me ask you what makes this poem good, if you think that it is good, or bad if you think it is bad, or undistinguished or mediocre or whatever other point on the continuum you care to assign it? How do you know? What standards do you use to determine whether this poem is worth reading, worth recommending to one's friends, or whether, on the basis of this one poem, one would turn eagerly or otherwise to another poem by the same author? mbales at oh.verio.net From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Mar 19 14:42:38 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (mbales at cybergate.net) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:42:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James McManus, "My Father's Sunglasses" In-Reply-To: <5f.24466228.29c8cb40@cs.com> Message-ID: <3C974E5E.8328.32674A@localhost> > > What makes this a poem? > RSGwynn > A better question might be: what makes this a narrative (or not). Well, let us posit that it is a narrative; so what? Isn't it presented as a poem? Aren't we implicitly asked by the author to read it in a special way because it is presented as a poem? mbales at oh.verio.net From Cadaly at aol.com Tue Mar 19 15:10:18 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 15:10:18 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Pink Message-ID: <37.2487e34f.29c8f52a@aol.com> I agree with Chris' pink reading. To carry it farther -- there used to be a lap dance place called PINKS I walked past every day on the way to work. In this way the writer tries to buy back pink/girls with pink/female genitalia. And those sunglasses, over the eyes.... hmmmm. As a result, I've been reading this as a rather pointed anecdote, so I don't really understand why the question was is this pointless anecdote a poem. McManus seems to be a metonymic form kinda guy, where little anecdotes have shapes and these shapes determine their genre, and writers have a "natural" genre too. If this is the case, this 1) apparently non-fiction, 2) not long or detailed enough for a short story or a novel, 3) already "fleshed out" and titled, must be 4) a poem. Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net I am going to write a prose poem, I think, for the editor who finds my regular poems to be versified. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tedmacker at yahoo.com Tue Mar 19 16:11:51 2002 From: tedmacker at yahoo.com (Edward Macker) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:11:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #707 - 13 msgs In-Reply-To: <200203191701.g2JH1CQ08284@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20020319211151.8734.qmail@web11503.mail.yahoo.com> 'Poem' or no, the McManus piece is still exciting. Perhaps I'm off, but it seems to be limning the time just before sexual awakening. That strange moment of knowing your not-knowing. For the 'pink' is the pink of some passing woman's dress, no? Reminds me of Larkin's 'Coming'-- On longer evenings, Light, chill and yellow, Bathes the serene Foreheads of houses. A thrush sings, Laurel-surrounded In the deep bare garden, Its fresh-peeled voice Astonishing the brickwork. It will be spring soon, It will be spring soon-- And I, whose childhood Is a forgotten boredom, Feel like a child Who comes on a scene Of adult reconciling, And can understand nothing But the unusual laughter, And starts to be happy. Thanks, Teddy Macker. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Mar 19 16:49:23 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:49:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James McManus, "Centrifuge . . . " Message-ID: The demand for another McManus poem hangs in the air like a meat cleaver. Here tis. This and the earlier one are both from his '93 collection called *Great America*. This one's his lead-off poem. Centrifuge: Islets of Langerhans It's 8:01 of an evening. Instead of "So What" or "Blood Sugar Sex Magik," which, as it happens, are both on this house-mix cassette, here I am half listening to Maria Callas sing Massenet's "Air de Chim?ne" while I read, riveted, in *The Times* about researchers' efforts to cure diabetes. Transplanting an entire unwieldy used pancreas is no longer necessary. Now only the actual insulin-producing cells, called islets of Langerhans, are taken, separated out from the donor pancreatic tissue in a centrifuge, yielding a bagful of what "looks like pink grapefruit juice." This potent solution gets dripped directly through the portal vein into the patient's liver, where, about two hours later, the islets begin to make insulin. But. The procedure will not be available "for three to five years, except"--except?--"to patients already requiring transplants of other organs," which even at this stage of things leaves me out. And there's more downside: daily injections of FK 506, an immunosuppressant derived from a Japanese fungus,will have to be substituted for (in my case, twice-daily) injections of insulin. So. Since my xenophobic body accepts nothing foreign, and, brother, I mean *nothing* . . . It already zapped its own perfectly functional islets of Langerhans twenty-six years ago, somehow mistaking the seventeen amino acids on their surface for the almost *not quite* identical configuration on bovine serum albumen. Cow's milk. And all because Mom didn't nurse me. . . . It's time to test my blood, do my shot, have some dinner, for which I imperiously decide to get naked. My islets don't work, so I'll not eat tonight with my clothes on! I use the remote thing to turn up the music to nine. Ms. Callas isn't done singing quite yet. I do dumb little jigs while I lip-sync, then stand still and listen. My blood, liquid glass, oozes from deep in my gut to the tip of my left middle finger, which now I must prick. I spin myself round maybe six, seven times, and kick off my underpants. Catch them. The bass of "So What" is buzzing my woofers. When Miles finally hits it I'm turning again, breathing and shivering hard, getting dizzy. --James McManus Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From DICK at watson.ibm.com Tue Mar 19 16:53:50 2002 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 02 16:53:50 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] "My Father's Sunglasses" & "Coming" Message-ID: <200203192155.g2JLtoO30560@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com> a nice contrast, and as good an answer as any to the unanswerable, "What is poetry?" it ain't in the tale, it's in the telling. Richard From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Mar 19 16:55:55 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:55:55 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James McManus, "My Father's Sunglasses" Message-ID: <4d.1aff994d.29c90deb@cs.com> In a message dated 3/19/2002 1:41:02 PM Central Standard Time, mbales at cybergate.net writes: > > > > What makes this a poem? > > > RSGwynn > > A better question might be: what makes this a narrative (or not). > > Well, let us posit that it is a narrative; so what? Isn't it presented > as a poem? Aren't we implicitly asked by the author to read it in a > special way because it is presented as a poem? > > You mean like giving it a 10-stroke handicap? I don't think so. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Mar 19 21:58:36 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 21:58:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James McManus, "My Father's Sunglasses" In-Reply-To: <4d.1aff994d.29c90deb@cs.com> Message-ID: <3C97B48C.26700.365EB9E@localhost> MB: > > > > What makes this a poem? > > > RSGwynn > > > A better question might be: what makes this a narrative (or not). MB: > > Well, let us posit that it is a narrative; so what? Isn't it presented > > as a poem? Aren't we implicitly asked by the author to read it in a > > special way because it is presented as a poem? RSG: > You mean like giving it a 10-stroke handicap? I don't think so. Not that kind of "special" -- but, rather, the good kind. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From jholmes at boisestate.edu Wed Mar 20 11:17:29 2002 From: jholmes at boisestate.edu (Janet Holmes) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:17:29 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pink Message-ID: I'm with Catherine on this one--remembering Carrie Fisher's novel "Surrender the Pink"--but Kasia, you're really pushing it with that "fleshed out" comment... Janet From grahamd at vbe.com Wed Mar 20 12:45:54 2002 From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:45:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose Message-ID: <200203201745.g2KHj9x01457@mail4.mx.voyager.net> Marcus Bales: >Using the "if the author says it's a poem it is a poem" stance, then, >let me ask you what makes this poem good, if you think that it is >good, or bad if you think it is bad, or undistinguished or mediocre >or whatever other point on the continuum you care to assign it? >How do you know? What standards do you use to determine >whether this poem is worth reading, worth recommending to one's >friends, or whether, on the basis of this one poem, one would turn >eagerly or otherwise to another poem by the same author? > > My Father's Sunglasses > James McManus > The best things in life are pink. My father > informed me of this twenty-six years ago. We were waiting > in front of the awningless First Bank of Lisle for my mother. > It was Saturday morning, late June or early July, and blindingly > sunny, even with my cap pulled down low. And it's hotter than hell, > said my father. He had on a T-shirt and sweatstained tortoiseshell > sunglasses. I was wearing my polyester Bronco League uniform > and clutching a brand-new green passbook in my first-baseman's mitt. > My savings account had one line, $60.00, money I'd got > from relatives for my eighth-grade graduation, plus > some I'd made as a caddie. I was rich, I thought > then, but I'd started to feel kind of nervous. > We were gonna be late for my game, and I had no idea > what my father was talking about. In a nutshell: I think the poem's OK. Not much mouth-music for my taste, but it's a tidy and memorable enough anecdote, and it did provoke thought as well as a mild smile. The differing interpretaions we've had about the word "pink" seem sufficient to show that the anecdote has some resonance for many people. Yes, the lineation is rather tension-free, which isn't always a black mark in my book, but here there certainly isn't enough intra-line jazz here to keep my ear too involved. What standards do I use to come up with the above assessment? Just my superb taste and pitch-perfect ear. Well, I've already spoken about the futility of seeking a Rosetta Stone defining the "rules" of free verse. I think the Holy Grail of absolute Standards for judging poetic quality is, well, even more unlikely to be discovered. David Graham =================================================== David Graham grahamd at vbe.com Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html =================================================== From daisyf1 at juno.com Wed Mar 20 13:22:06 2002 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:22:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose Message-ID: <20020320.132207.-382647.3.daisyf1@juno.com> "If you know what poetry is, what's prose? And if you know what prose is, what's poetry?" -- Gertrude Stein Or something like that. Anyhow, that more or less takes care of that for me... Daisy From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 20 14:31:47 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:31:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose References: <200203201745.g2KHj9x01457@mail4.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <00a001c1d045$e1035f60$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> If the author's saying it's a poem makes something a poem, of what semantic value is the word, "poem?" --Bob G. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 20 14:33:12 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:33:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose References: <20020320.132207.-382647.3.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <00a601c1d046$13b98ce0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> "If you know what up is, what's down? And if you know what down is, what's up?" -- or, who cares what anything is? --Bob G. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Mar 20 14:57:40 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:57:40 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies In-Reply-To: <9f.243ba5ec.29c7f7f1@cs.com> Message-ID: on 3/18/02 8:09 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Did anyone mention the movie in which Mickey Rourke plays Charles Bukowski? > Talk about type-casting. > Barfly was the title. A boring movie. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Mar 20 15:39:56 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:39:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose In-Reply-To: <00a601c1d046$13b98ce0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> Message-ID: { "If you know what up is, what's down? And if you know what down is, what's { up?" -- or, who cares what anything is? { { --Bob G. That about covers it. Hal "How strange we are, to call what happens anything at all." --Robert Kelly Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Mar 20 15:42:15 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:42:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet movies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's a Ken Russell movie called *Gothic* on one of the cable channels tonight. It's about Shelley and Byron. Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed Mar 20 16:11:51 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:11:51 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose References: <200203201745.g2KHj9x01457@mail4.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3C98FB18.72005AAB@earthlink.net> > Or is it just the reactive urge? If someone says, "Hey, look at this, it's > BAD" it becomes easier to find something good, and vice versa? Chris > > > In a nutshell: I think the poem's OK. Not much mouth-music for my taste, > but it's a tidy and memorable enough anecdote, and it did provoke thought as > well as a mild smile. The differing interpretaions we've had about the word > "pink" seem sufficient to show that the anecdote has some resonance for many > people. > > Yes, the lineation is rather tension-free, which isn't always a black mark > in my book, but here there certainly isn't enough intra-line jazz here to > keep my ear too involved. > > What standards do I use to come up with the above assessment? Just my > superb taste and pitch-perfect ear. > > Well, I've already spoken about the futility of seeking a Rosetta Stone > defining the "rules" of free verse. I think the Holy Grail of absolute > Standards for judging poetic quality is, well, even more unlikely to be > discovered. > > David Graham > > =================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at vbe.com > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > =================================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at vbe.com Wed Mar 20 16:25:26 2002 From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:25:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose Message-ID: <200203202124.g2KLOfx83878@mail4.mx.voyager.net> >If the author's saying it's a poem makes something a poem, of what semantic >value is the word, "poem?" > > --Bob G. About the same semantic value as the words "love," "beauty," and "music." I.e. none at all, until put into action, complicated by evaluative, comparative, historical, & personal contexts, etc. It's not that I think an author can call his or her coffee mug a poem and thus magically transform it into a lyric. I just don't think that it's worth my time to try and argue said author out of the opinion. Especially when so many coffee mugs of the past *are* now lyrics. . . . Let those who are interested debate the pure definitional question all they want. Good luck and let me know when you finish. In any practical realm, such attempts at gatekeeping seem doomed to failure. Purists are always defeated by time, as genres shift or blend, the canon evolves, and notions of decorum are revised. I enjoy discussing the merits of individual poems and poets--almost too much. On alternate weeks I'm even willing to talk in the abstract about what constitutes a "good poem." But the query "what's a poem?" lost its shine for me a long while ago. =================================================== David Graham grahamd at vbe.com Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html =================================================== From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Wed Mar 20 16:42:44 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:42:44 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Against Oblivion Message-ID: <200203202141.g2KLfmu80096@mx1.mx.voyager.net> For a sobering long view of poetic fame, take a look at Ian Hamilton's book *Against Oblivion*, excerpted in *The Guardian*. Available currently at Poetry Daily, or directly at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,668028,00.html It's always salutary to be reminded that the taste of every age is more or less completely discarded by succeeding ages. Hamilton, asked to collect the 50 "best" 20th Century poets in English for a new "Lives of the Poets," took a look at previous attempts at such gatherings. Hamilton writes, "Continuing my scrutiny of Johnson, I was further nonplussed to find that, out of his selected 50 poets, I was familiar with the work of maybe half a dozen. That is to say, there were about 40 poets who had enjoyed fame in two past centuries about whom I knew next to nothing." Moving from the 18th Century to the early 20th, though, Hamilton found that the track record of anthologists--in terms of defining who's "immortal" and who will drop into oblivion-- does not change much. So let's hear it for those immortal poets, Thomas Yalden, Thomas Tickell, Edmund Smith, Elijah Fenton; or, closer to our own era, Frederic Manning, Edward Shanks, John Freeman, Gerald Gould, Fredegond Shove, Anna Wickham, Helen Parry Eden. . . . =================================================== David Graham grahamd at vbe.com Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html =================================================== From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 20 16:55:34 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:55:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose References: <200203202124.g2KLOfx83878@mail4.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <00de01c1d05a$b74d1200$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> > >If the author's saying it's a poem makes something a poem, of what semantic > >value is the word, "poem?" > > > > --Bob G. > > About the same semantic value as the words "love," "beauty," and "music." > I.e. none at all, until put into action, complicated by evaluative, > comparative, historical, & personal contexts, etc. "love" is not the opposite of "hate," etc.? I myself get fed up, too, with the standard, "That's not a poem," as a criticism. I think what a poem is, is important, but not in a discussion of the merits of a given text. (If you think a poem has to be verbal, and I have friends who think a poem need not have any words.) Anyway, David, we've been through all this before. I'm just showing my allegiance to semantic rigor to reassure the one or two reading the stuff posted here that they aren't alone. I'm not about to argue it again, nor--I'm sure--are you. --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Mar 20 18:10:18 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:10:18 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Against Oblivion Message-ID: <25.24b68d3a.29ca70da@cs.com> So let's hear it for those immortal poets, Thomas Yalden, Thomas Tickell, Edmund Smith, Elijah Fenton; or, closer to our own era, Frederic Manning, Edward Shanks, John Freeman, Gerald Gould, Fredegond Shove, Anna Wickham, Helen Parry Eden. . . . Ballade of the Yale Younger Poets of Yesteryear Tell me where, oh, where are they, Those Younger Poets of Old Yale Whose laurels flourished for a day But wither now beyond the pale? Where are Chubb, Farrar, and Vinal With fame as fragile as a bubble? Where is the late Paul Tanaquil, And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell? Where's Banks? Where's Boyle? Where's Frances Clai- Borne Mason? Where is T. H. Ferril? Dorothy E. Reid or Margaret Ha- Ley? Simmering in Bad Poets Hell? J. Ingalls' "Metaphysical Sword" (hacking critics' weeds to stubble)? Young Ashbery (that is, "John L.")? And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell? Where's Alfred Raymond Bellinger (If you'll allow me to exhale Him avec un accent fran?ais)? Where's Faust (Henri) or Dorothy Belle Flanagan? Where is Paul Engle (To rhyme whose surname gave me trouble)? Hath tolled for all the passing bell? And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell? Prince of all poets, hear, I pray, And raise them from their beds of rubble. Where's Younger Carolyn Forch?? And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 20 18:39:27 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:39:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Against Oblivion References: <200203202141.g2KLfmu80096@mx1.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <000d01c1d068$7a512900$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> One fatuous remark about how Hamilton could find more "great poets" in the 20th century than Johnson found in all the of seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, but interesting. (Hint: population growth.) Question: what now-considered-great poets from the time-span Johnson selected his poets from did he leave out of his set of biographies? Any? Prophecy: in fifty years more 20th-century poets not on Hamilton's list will be considered great than are on his list. And of his four "indisputables," Hardy will drop to Marvell-level, Auden to Skelton-level (or lower). fade. --Bob G. From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Wed Mar 20 19:22:30 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:22:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Against Oblivion Message-ID: <200203210022.g2L0M1D43698@mx6.mx.voyager.net> >And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell? Waka I am not a person. I am a succession of persons Held together by memory. When the string breaks, The beads are scattered. --Lindley Williams Hubbell ________________________________ Brilliant, Sam. Please tell me that your ballade was already written, though. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ---------- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Against Oblivion Date: Wed, Mar 20, 2002, 5:10 PM So let's hear it for those immortal poets, Thomas Yalden, Thomas Tickell, Edmund Smith, Elijah Fenton; or, closer to our own era, Frederic Manning, Edward Shanks, John Freeman, Gerald Gould, Fredegond Shove, Anna Wickham, Helen Parry Eden. . . . Ballade of the Yale Younger Poets of Yesteryear Tell me where, oh, where are they, Those Younger Poets of Old Yale Whose laurels flourished for a day But wither now beyond the pale? Where are Chubb, Farrar, and Vinal With fame as fragile as a bubble? Where is the late Paul Tanaquil, And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell? Where's Banks? Where's Boyle? Where's Frances Clai- Borne Mason? Where is T. H. Ferril? Dorothy E. Reid or Margaret Ha- Ley? Simmering in Bad Poets Hell? J. Ingalls' "Metaphysical Sword" (hacking critics' weeds to stubble)? Young Ashbery (that is, "John L.")? And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell? Where's Alfred Raymond Bellinger (If you'll allow me to exhale Him avec un accent fran?ais)? Where's Faust (Henri) or Dorothy Belle Flanagan? Where is Paul Engle (To rhyme whose surname gave me trouble)? Hath tolled for all the passing bell? And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell? Prince of all poets, hear, I pray, And raise them from their beds of rubble. Where's Younger Carolyn Forch?? And where is Lindley Williams Hubbell? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu Wed Mar 20 22:08:34 2002 From: acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu (Alan C Golding) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 22:08:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Movies Message-ID: "Gothic," that's it--that's the one that I mis-remembered as "The White Worm." Seem to remember it being fairly awful but in that distinctively Ken Russell-ish sort of excessive way that has its own weird (gothic) appeal. So can someone put me out of my misery? What *is* the name of that Anthony Hopkins/C. S. Lewis--Debra Winger/Joy Davidman (thanks, David--I think that's right) movie? Alan From Cadaly at aol.com Wed Mar 20 22:27:53 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 22:27:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pink Message-ID: you are right Janet, it is not "fleshly school" poetry Rgds, Catherine (Kasia) Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpjones at ihug.com.au Wed Mar 20 22:51:46 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (jpjones at ihug.com.au) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 03:51:46 GMT Subject: [New-Poetry] Movies Message-ID: <200203210351.OAA31989@new-smtp2.ihug.com.au> > "Gothic," that's it--that's the one that I mis-remembered as "The White > Worm." Seem to remember it being fairly awful but in that distinctively > Ken Russell-ish sort of excessive way that has its own weird (gothic) > appeal. > > So can someone put me out of my misery? What *is* the name of that > Anthony Hopkins/C. S. Lewis--Debra Winger/Joy Davidman (thanks, David--I > think that's right) movie? Shadowlands. Not to be confused with a kd lang album. Jill From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Wed Mar 20 22:03:36 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:03:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Movies References: Message-ID: <3C994D86.1B77F94B@earthlink.net> Alan C Golding wrote: > "Gothic," that's it--that's the one that I mis-remembered as "The White > Worm." Seem to remember it being fairly awful but in that distinctively > Ken Russell-ish sort of excessive way that has its own weird (gothic) > appeal. > > So can someone put me out of my misery? What *is* the name of that > Anthony Hopkins/C. S. Lewis--Debra Winger/Joy Davidman (thanks, David--I > think that's right) movie? "Shadowlands." It was also done earlier with Claire Bloom and Joss Auckland, and I think that version was lots better, particularly Bloom. The picture is good in its own way, but if you know much detail about Lewis's life, the end comes up particularly all wet. Didn't Russell also direct "Lair of the White Worm"? I think that was what you were remembering. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Mar 20 23:44:51 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:44:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose In-Reply-To: <200203202124.g2KLOfx83878@mail4.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: { In any practical realm, such attempts at gatekeeping seem doomed to failure. { Purists are always defeated by time, as genres shift or blend, the canon { evolves, and notions of decorum are revised. David-- I'm wondering whether those who are disturbed by prosey poems are equally disturbed by poetic prose. Hal ""Anything is art if an artist says it is." --Marcel Duchamp Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Mar 20 23:50:54 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:50:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Movies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { "Gothic," that's it--that's the one that I mis-remembered as "The White { Worm." Seem to remember it being fairly awful but in that distinctively { Ken Russell-ish sort of excessive way that has its own weird (gothic) { appeal. Quite right, Alan. I watched it tonight. Russell is over the top, as always, but this one doesn't go on quite as long as some of his other extravaganzas. It would be nice if *Mahler*, for example, were a reel or two shorter. Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. --Noam Chomsky Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From mbales at cybergate.net Thu Mar 21 05:53:00 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 05:53:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose In-Reply-To: <200203202124.g2KLOfx83878@mail4.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3C99753C.30800.A3EDE79@localhost> Bob G: > > If the author's saying it's a poem makes something a poem, of > > what semantic value is the word, "poem?" David G: > ... none at all, until put into action, complicated by evaluative, > comparative, historical, & personal contexts, etc. Well, isn't asking whether a specific piece of work is a poem nothing but asking for the evaluative, comparative, historical and personal contexts into which you put it? David G: > It's not that I think an author can call his or her coffee mug a poem and > thus magically transform it into a lyric.<< Why not? If you agree that a poem is anything an author calls a poem how can you reasonably say that? What in your view prevents an author from calling his coffee mug a poem and waiting for the "purists" to be "defeated by time, as genres shift or blend, the canon evolves, and notions of decorum are revised", as you seem confident they will be? Why not just agree up front that a coffee mug, or my quotations for art glass, or *anything* else, are poems if they're claimed to be, and praise them as such? Why not allow that the word "poem" means nothing at all because it applies to anything from a quark to the entirety of the universe? And if any thing is already a poem why bother to do anything other than merely start the competition to name a thing as a poem you've authored merely by making the claim? I've got dibs on every sex act! I hereby declare that every sex act done by anyone or anything anywhere any time is MY POEM, merely because I claim that each is. And all you purists can go pound salt. You know that you'll be "defeated by time, as genres shift or blend, the canon evolves, and notions of decorum are revised"! In short, if you're unwilling to articulate your standards for what is and what is not a poem then there is nothing that prevents the above reduction to the absurd from holding. Otherwise David Graham himself is nothing but a poem by Marcus Bales if Marcus Bales has claimed it's so! Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From wjbat at conncoll.edu Thu Mar 21 11:28:03 2002 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:28:03 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose In-Reply-To: <3C99753C.30800.A3EDE79@localhost> Message-ID: <20020321082803.019157@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Marcus Bales wrote: >Why not just agree up front that a >coffee mug, or my quotations for art glass, or *anything* else, are >poems if they're claimed to be, and praise them as such? Marcus, There's no praise implicit in calling something "poem," as we're using the term here. Lousy poems, boring poems, trite poems are species that multiply ferociously within genus Poem. We're all susceptible to confusing the genre term with the word "poetry" as it's used in the general culture--as an honorific. Hence the perennial dormroom arguments about whether Bob Dylan is a poet or not. I don't object to either usage, but mixing them indiscriminately gets us nowhere. Wendy From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Mar 21 08:50:57 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:50:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose References: <3C99753C.30800.A3EDE79@localhost> Message-ID: <002e01c1d0df$6f57e440$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> > > David G: > > It's not that I think an author can call his or her coffee mug a poem and > > thus magically transform it into a lyric.<< > Marcus B > Why not? If you agree that a poem is anything an author calls a > poem how can you reasonably say that? What in your view > prevents an author from calling his coffee mug a poem and waiting > for the "purists" to be "defeated by time, as genres shift or blend, > the canon evolves, and notions of decorum are revised", as you > seem confident they will be? Why not just agree up front that a > coffee mug, or my quotations for art glass, or *anything* else, are > poems if they're claimed to be, and praise them as such? Marcus -- doesn't that last statement jump the tracks just a bit? If we allow that something can be called a poem, does that automatically mean we have to praise it? If I'm running a small magazine, and someone sends me a piece of paper on which is written, In June I croon Beneath the moon I'll send it back with a note saying "Good luck in placing your poem elsewhere," or some such formality. And if I get a lot of poems like that, I'll send them all back, with the same note, and mutter something to myself about an influx of rotten poetry. If someone sends me a coffee cup, with an SASE, I'll do the same. If I start getting a lot of coffee cups, this will be a little more unusual than getting a lot of moon/June poems, and I may start looking at them to try and figure out why this is going on, and perhaps even to see if one of the coffee cups has more literary value than the others. Chances are, I'll decide that none of them pass my test. Now, if someone sends me a critical essay on the coffee cup as a new poetic form, my interest is piqued. I'll read it, and it may not convince me -- but if it's good, it may make me look at my own definition of poetry in a new way. It may, like other forms of poetry I don't much care to read -- like concrete poetry -- add something interesting and challenging to the vocabulary of poem-making. But, maybe I'm one of those really conscientious editors who comments on every poem. In that case: Dear Mr. Bales, I find your "every sex act in the world" poem a little over-generalized. Please try to refine your work more. Send me a claim to a particular sex act, and I'll consider it. Yours for poetry, Tad Richards From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Thu Mar 21 11:36:49 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:36:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated Prose Message-ID: <200203211635.g2LGZn776022@mx2.mx.voyager.net> >We're all susceptible to confusing the genre term with the word "poetry" >as it's used in the general culture--as an honorific. Exactly so, Wendy. (And Tad.) Despite patient repetition, this point keeps getting ignored. Anyway, I now declare myself finished with this "perennial dormroom argument" for this particular go-round. Marcus: I do rather like the notion that "David Graham himself is nothing but a poem"--which I may use as a blurb sometime. Begs the question of whether David Graham is a *good* poem, though, doesn't it? (And I leave off your name as my author because there is no author, naturally.) ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ---------- >From: Wendy Battin >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose >Date: Thu, Mar 21, 2002, 10:28 AM > >Marcus Bales wrote: >>Why not just agree up front that a >>coffee mug, or my quotations for art glass, or *anything* else, are >>poems if they're claimed to be, and praise them as such? > >Marcus, >There's no praise implicit in calling something "poem," as we're using >the term here. Lousy poems, boring poems, trite poems are species that >multiply ferociously within genus Poem. > >We're all susceptible to confusing the genre term with the word "poetry" >as it's used in the general culture--as an honorific. Hence the >perennial dormroom arguments about whether Bob Dylan is a poet or not. I >don't object to either usage, but mixing them indiscriminately gets us >nowhere. > >Wendy > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Mar 21 11:41:04 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 11:41:04 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Movies Message-ID: <23.1b33aa11.29cb6720@cs.com> In a message dated 3/20/2002 9:53:18 PM Central Standard Time, jpjones at ihug.com.au writes: > So can someone put me out of my misery? What *is* the name of that > > Anthony Hopkins/C. S. Lewis--Debra Winger/Joy Davidman (thanks, David--I > > think that's right) movie? > > Shadowlands. Not to be confused with a kd lang album. > > Jill > There was another film of this story that aired on PBS that was far superior to this version. Can't think of the titles or the actors, though. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu Thu Mar 21 11:50:13 2002 From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:50:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring/Summer 2002 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ Message-ID: <1016729413.smmsdV1.1.2@pluto.valpo.edu> Announcement: Publication of the Spring/Summer 2002 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_. The Spring/Summer 2002 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ is now officially available at the following url: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ The featured poet for the Spring/Summer 2002 issue is David Baker. Other poets include Barry Ballard, Jared Carter, Catherine Daly, John Gilgun, Marie C. Jones, Mary Linxweiler, Walt McDonald, Vivian Shipley, Floyd Skloot, Daniel Tobin, and James R. Whitley. The new issue also contains an interview with Walt McDonald, a David Baker essay on contemporary poetry, a commentary on the cover art by Stuart Davis, and reviews of works by David Baker, Jared Carter, Michael Palmer, and Vivian Shipley. As always, the new issue includes a list of recently received and recommended books of poetry or poetics, as well as guidelines for submissions. Submissions and review copies of books are always welcome. In addition, all past issues of VPR remain available for reading. -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From TerryP17 at aol.com Thu Mar 21 12:30:17 2002 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:30:17 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] New Content on ECR's Website Message-ID: FYI, new content from Edge City Review's issue #16 is now up on our infrequently-updated website, including a new poem on 9/11 by Art Mortensen. The link: http://www.edge-city.com/ --Terry Ponick From mbales at cybergate.net Thu Mar 21 22:04:43 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:04:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated Prose In-Reply-To: <200203211635.g2LGZn776022@mx2.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3C9A58FB.22508.DB8A35B@localhost> > Marcus: I do rather like the notion that "David Graham himself is nothing > but a poem"--which I may use as a blurb sometime. > Begs the question of whether David Graham is a *good* poem, though, doesn't > it?<< No. Begging the question is another notion entirely. What you seem to mean here is that it simply doesn't ask the question you'd prefer to have asked. > (And I leave off your name as my author because there is no author, naturally.)< This, too, is simply wrong. The author is me IF (and only if) I make the claim that I am the author and IF (and only if) you claim that any author's claim that anything is a poem is a valid claim. It is a reduction to the absurd to demonstrate that there is in fact a need to define what poetry is in order to keep from having to agree with absurd claims such as, for example, that David Graham is a poem by Marcus Bales because Marcus Bales claims it is so. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From mbales at cybergate.net Thu Mar 21 22:14:08 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:14:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose In-Reply-To: <002e01c1d0df$6f57e440$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <3C9A5B30.203.DC14177@localhost> > Marcus B > > Why not? If you agree that a poem is anything an author calls a > > poem how can you reasonably say that? What in your view > > prevents an author from calling his coffee mug a poem and waiting > > for the "purists" to be "defeated by time, as genres shift or blend, > > the canon evolves, and notions of decorum are revised", as you > > seem confident they will be? Why not just agree up front that a > > coffee mug, or my quotations for art glass, or *anything* else, are > > poems if they're claimed to be, and praise them as such? > The Old Mole: > ... doesn't that last statement jump the tracks just a bit? If we > allow that something can be called a poem, does that automatically mean we > have to praise it?<< We have to praise it "as such", I think -- acknowledge that it is at least a member of the class of "poems", and as such is a special kind of language, as, for example, we might distinguish "an athlete" from the rest of humanity. It seems to me that there is an implicit level of praise inherent in making such a distinction: we mean to confer some praise at least by the very making of the distinction. Whether we say someone is a "world-class athlete" or a "sand-lot athlete" or even a "former athlete", it seems to me we are in fact praising, to some degree. In the same way it seems to me that by calling something "a poem" we are also praising to some degree. And if we're not, what are we doing? > Now, if someone sends me a critical essay on the coffee cup as a new poetic > form, my interest is piqued. I'll read it, and it may not convince me -- but > if it's good, it may make me look at my own definition of poetry in a new > way. It may, like other forms of poetry I don't much care to read -- like > concrete poetry -- add something interesting and challenging to the > vocabulary of poem-making. So it may -- and that's my question about the poem by Mr McManus, you see: does it add something interesting and challenging to the vocabulary of poem-making? I think it does not -- unless it has been mis-quoted or is only the first few lines to a longer poem not presented. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 22 00:33:10 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:33:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Movies References: <23.1b33aa11.29cb6720@cs.com> Message-ID: <3C9AC213.B6718BF@earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Fri Mar 22 00:45:32 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:45:32 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated Prose References: <3C9A58FB.22508.DB8A35B@localhost> Message-ID: <3C9AC4F7.515516DE@earthlink.net> Marcus Bales wrote: > (And I leave off your name as my author because there is no > author, naturally.)< > > This, too, is simply wrong. The author is me IF (and only if) I make > the claim that I am the author and IF (and only if) you claim that > any author's claim that anything is a poem is a valid claim. Someone might have a divine quibble with you about that whole author-of-David-Graham thing. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From mbales at cybergate.net Fri Mar 22 07:39:11 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (mbales at cybergate.net) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 07:39:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated Prose In-Reply-To: <3C9AC4F7.515516DE@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3C9ADF9F.24206.112B52@localhost> David G: > > (And I leave off your name as my author because there is no > > author, naturally.)< Marcus B: > > This, too, is simply wrong. The author is me IF (and only if) I make > > the claim that I am the author and IF (and only if) you claim that > > any author's claim that anything is a poem is a valid claim. Moira R: > Someone might have a divine quibble with you about that whole > author-of-David-Graham thing.<< On what grounds within the claim that anything is a poem if someone claims it is? Within that framework what prevents me from claiming any absurd thing I please and demanding that you, and everyone who agrees with the framework, accede to it? The point, Moira, you see, is the reduction to the absurd -- my potential claim that David Graham is a poem by Marcus Bales is a rhetorical technique to point up the problems with another claim, the claim that anything is a poem just because someone claims it is. mbales at oh.verio.net From mbales at cybergate.net Fri Mar 22 07:39:11 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (mbales at cybergate.net) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 07:39:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lineated Prose Message-ID: <3C9ADF9F.28188.112B04@localhost> > > "If you know what poetry is, what's prose? And if you know what prose > > is, what's poetry?" -- Gertrude Stein Daisy: > > Or something like that. Anyhow, that more or less takes care of that for > > me... If you know what right is, what's wrong? And if you know what wrong is, what's right? Does that "take care of" morals for you, too? mbales at oh.verio.net From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Fri Mar 22 10:44:55 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:44:55 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Secret of Poetry Message-ID: <200203221544.g2MFiQk12495@mx6.mx.voyager.net> Slowly making my way through my annual harvest from the AWP book fair, I thought I'd send out a small plug for Mark Jarman's collection of essays, *The Secret of Poetry* (Story Line Press, 2001). Haven't finished it yet, but I can report it's a lively, provocative, and readable collection. It's good to have these essays collected. Predictably, Jarman's very good on E. A. Robinson, Donald Justice, and "the New Narrative Poetry." Knowing his prose mainly in its Reaper and Rebel Angel guises, I confess I was not expecting him to be quite so interesting and judicious about the work of Jorie Graham, Philip Levine, Charles Wright, Robert Creeley, et al. Most interesting essay so far is "John & Randall, Randall & John," a re-assessment of Berryman and Jarrell that for me performs the nearly impossible feat of shedding fresh light on these much-discussed figures. And what's in YOUR book bag these days? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Mar 22 11:57:11 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:57:11 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Secret of Poetry (book bag) References: <200203221544.g2MFiQk12495@mx6.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3C9B6266.64348B61@earthlink.net> _Flux_, poems, Cynthia Hogue _When the Moon Knows You're Wandering_, poems, Ruth Ellen Kocher _From Sweetness_. poems, Debra Marquart _Underground Rivers_, poems, Peggy Shumaker _Making Scenes_, novel, Adrienne Eisen _Who Would Unbraid Her Hair_, nonfiction/poems/memoir, Antoinette Claypoole _Dreaming Souls: Sleep, Dreams, and the Evolution of the Conscious Mind, Owen Flanagan _Transforming Problems Into Happiness_, Lama Zopa Rinpoche _Awakening the Buddha Within_, Lama Surya Das - Jim David Graham wrote: > > Slowly making my way through my annual harvest from the AWP book fair, I > thought I'd send out a small plug for Mark Jarman's collection of essays, > *The Secret of Poetry* (Story Line Press, 2001). Haven't finished it yet, > but I can report it's a lively, provocative, and readable collection. It's > good to have these essays collected. > > Predictably, Jarman's very good on E. A. Robinson, Donald Justice, and "the > New Narrative Poetry." Knowing his prose mainly in its Reaper and Rebel > Angel guises, I confess I was not expecting him to be quite so interesting > and judicious about the work of Jorie Graham, Philip Levine, Charles Wright, > Robert Creeley, et al. > > Most interesting essay so far is "John & Randall, Randall & John," a > re-assessment of Berryman and Jarrell that for me performs the nearly > impossible feat of shedding fresh light on these much-discussed figures. > > And what's in YOUR book bag these days? > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ======================================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From daisyf1 at juno.com Fri Mar 22 13:17:13 2002 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:17:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs Message-ID: <20020322.131713.-381743.4.daisyf1@juno.com> Marcus said:> If you know what right is, what's wrong? And if you know what > wrong is, what's right? Does that "take care of" morals for you, > too? "Right" is by definition the opposite of "wrong"; "poetry" is not, by definition, the opposite of "prose." Daisy > > > "If you know what poetry is, what's prose? And if you know what > prose > > > is, what's poetry?" -- Gertrude Stein > > > Or something like that. Anyhow, that more or less takes care of > that for > > > me... >Daisy From Jholmes at boisestate.edu Fri Mar 22 13:44:41 2002 From: Jholmes at boisestate.edu (Janet Holmes) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:44:41 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: lineated prose, standards of beauty Message-ID: I usually think these discussions are based on aesthetics and therefore self-serving, but the writer Richard Gabriel has come up with a theory of poetry based upon Christopher Alexander's theories of beauty in architecture, carpets, and nature. A high degree of order figures into his (Alexander's) theory, and in his talk Gabriel first explains the theory and then uses it to analyze the following poems: "The Second Coming" by Yeats, "San Sepolcro" by Jorie Graham, "Lourdes" by Bill Knott, and "Whispers of Immortality" by Eliot, sometimes with surprising results. The very readable and explanatory slides for the lecture can be found at http://www.dreamsongs.com/NewFiles/NatureOfPoeticOrder.pdf . I recommend the site to anyone who is interested in the possibility of an objective standard for poetry--recognizing that Dickinson's standard may still be preferable to some people. Janet From Arielpf123 at aol.com Fri Mar 22 15:05:41 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:05:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Secret of Poetry (book bag) Message-ID: <8d.15bc942a.29cce895@aol.com> In a message dated 3/22/02 12:02:05 PM, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: << > And what's in YOUR book bag these days? >> Just finished Savage Beauty (the bio of Edna St. Vincent Millay)....wonderful! And am half-way through Seabiscuit. fascinating. Also, Pleasure Dome, Kumenyakka, poems; Velocities, Stephen Dobyns, poems; The Winged Seed, Li Young Lee, undefinable; Bellow Falls, Archor Mayor, mystery; Harper's Magazine, current issue, article on "The Numbing of the American Mind,".... Vendler on Milosz next. Also, the current issues of US Worksheets 1, Concrete Wolf, & Larcom. patf. From antrobin at clipper.net Fri Mar 22 15:04:18 2002 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:04:18 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Secret of Poetry (book bag) References: <8d.15bc942a.29cce895@aol.com> Message-ID: <00da01c1d1dc$c15a1080$0daeefd8@0021936706> My book bag: Emily Dickinson--Selected Letters Brenda Hillman--Cascadia Spencer Short--Tremolo Colson Whitehead--The Intuitionist Elizabeth David--South Wind Through the Kitchen (Best of) Girls on the Run--John Ashbery Tony *** "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be better left alone." Kenneth Koch *** ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals. Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker" ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 12:05 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Secret of Poetry (book bag) > > In a message dated 3/22/02 12:02:05 PM, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > << > > And what's in YOUR book bag these days? >> > > Just finished Savage Beauty (the bio of Edna St. Vincent > Millay)....wonderful! > And am half-way through Seabiscuit. fascinating. Also, Pleasure Dome, > Kumenyakka, poems; Velocities, Stephen Dobyns, poems; The Winged Seed, Li > Young Lee, undefinable; Bellow Falls, Archor Mayor, mystery; Harper's > Magazine, current issue, article on "The Numbing of the American Mind,".... > Vendler on Milosz next. Also, the current issues of US Worksheets 1, > Concrete Wolf, & Larcom. > > patf. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Mar 22 15:20:01 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:20:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem Message-ID: Here's a link to a poem of mine that just came online. It's short, and in free verse. http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0203/poetry.html Paul Lake From hruggier at localnet.com Fri Mar 22 17:12:59 2002 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:12:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated Prose References: <200203191635.g2JGZsk58019@mx15.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3C9BAC6B.452F0A85@localnet.com> Dare we mention the variable foot in here? David Graham wrote: > These are very old debates. I'm never sure what a phrase like "lineated > prose" means, I confess, or how one determines the difference between it and > various sorts of free verse. > > Nor am I sure why "lineated prose" is necessarily an insult, for that > matter. If the prose is good prose, then putting it in lines surely does > the world no harm. > > I'm utterly comfortable with the "if the author says it's a poem, it's a > poem" stance--at least, I'm not going to pour much energy into any quest for > a rosetta stone that will define the rules of free verse. That would seem > doomed--almost by definition--to failure. > > In any case, I think Chris S. asks the relevant question here--often when > critics make this sort of argument, it seems they blur two matters: the > issue of what verse *is*, and the quite distinct question of what *good* > verse is. > > If you believe that only metered verse is poetry, then of course *all* free > verse is "lineated prose." Fine: that's when I exit the conversation. > > If, on the other hand, you admit that free verse has merit, then the fun > begins. > > Robert Creeley and Walt Whitman write very different sorts of free verse, > and I would resist any taxonomy that excluded either from the pantheon. > > In the past century we've also seen many experiments with deliberately > "prosy" rhythms and lineation--which for certain kinds of effect seem > musical to my ear, rather as Thelonious Monk's odd rhythms have come, with > time, to seem "right." > > Where's the line between effective linebreaking and Pound's arbitrary > hacking of prose into lines? Be sure to give me a call when you know the > answer to that one! Pound's "sequence of the musical phrase" is lovely, but > inherently resistent to definition, seems to me. > > Here's one of E.P.'s typically pithy bits of advice: "Don't make each line > stop dead at the end, and then begin every next line with a heave. Let the > beginning of the next line catch the rise of the rhythm wave, unless you > want a definite longish pause." > > Well, that's hardly adequate, is it? Heavily end-stopped lines, as in > Whitman, can be every bit as musically effective as heavily enjambed ones. > > David Graham > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ======================================== > > ---------- > >From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: James McManus, "My Father's Sunglasses" > >Date: Tue, Mar 19, 2002, 5:35 AM > > > > >Marcus--- > > > >In this case I agree with what seems to be your *rhetorical* > >questions---but curious if you're more specifically criticizing > >it on the grounds of being a "pointless anecdote" or on the > >grounds of being "lineated prose?" > > > >Chris > > > >Marcus Bales wrote: > > > >> > My Father's Sunglasses > >> > James McManus > >> > The best things in life are pink. My father > >> > informed me of this twenty-six years ago. We were waiting > >> > in front of the awningless First Bank of Lisle for my mother. > >> > It was Saturday morning, late June or early July, and blindingly > >> > sunny, even with my cap pulled down low. And it's hotter than hell, > >> > said my father. He had on a T-shirt and sweatstained tortoiseshell > >> > sunglasses. I was wearing my polyester Bronco League uniform > >> > and clutching a brand-new green passbook in my first-baseman's mitt. > >> > My savings account had one line, $60.00, money I'd got > >> > from relatives for my eighth-grade graduation, plus > >> > some I'd made as a caddie. I was rich, I thought > >> > then, but I'd started to feel kind of nervous. > >> > We were gonna be late for my game, and I had no idea > >> > what my father was talking about. > >> > >> Why is this pointless anecdote, which seems to end right where a > >> good story would start, a poem? As the beginning of a short story > >> or novel or memoir this lineated prose would be interesting. But > >> what makes it a poem? That someone *called* it a poem? > >> > >> Marcus Bales > >> http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Mar 22 21:26:43 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 21:26:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chock Full o' Nuts References: Message-ID: <005c01c1d212$40ccea60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> What's all this nonsense about a coffee cup not being a poem? Didn't Eliot say that poetry was a mug's game? Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards From JBCM2 at aol.com Fri Mar 22 22:19:27 2002 From: JBCM2 at aol.com (JBCM2 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:19:27 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Mona Lisa Goes Online Message-ID: <5a.892cbf7.29cd4e3f@aol.com> Mona Lisa Goes Online in Louvre Web Site Revamp By Rebecca Harrison Reuters PARIS (March 22) - Paris's Louvre is revamping its Web site so art lovers can view its entire collection, including thousands of drawings unseen by museum visitors, without ever setting foot in France. The Louvre Web site already displays some of the museum's exhibits and gets six million visits a year, as many as flock to the French capital to see Leonardo da Vinci's ''Mona Lisa'' and other famous works up close. All 35,000 of its exhibits will be on show at the revamped site announced on Friday. Directors hope the upgrade will give more people across the globe access to the world's biggest museum. Online visitors will also be able to see a further 130,000 drawings, which are too fragile for public display and can only be seen by appointment. From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Sat Mar 23 00:23:06 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:23:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Secret of Poetry (book bag) References: <8d.15bc942a.29cce895@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C9C1137.B76B5BF4@earthlink.net> Arielpf123 at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/22/02 12:02:05 PM, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > > << > > And what's in YOUR book bag these days? >> > > Just finished Savage Beauty (the bio of Edna St. Vincent > Millay)....wonderful! I finished this a couple of months ago. I didn't know whether to be intrigued or irritated by the biographer's constant segues to present-tense conversations with Vincent's sister, and I wonder if the newly revealed facts about Millay's drug addiction are going to wreck her status in parents' eyes as the perfect gift for thirteen-year-old poetically inclined girls. But it was indeed fascinating. If you like that, you might enjoy Elizabeth Frank's biography of Louise Bogan -- which is wonderfully written. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Sat Mar 23 00:24:33 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:24:33 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chock Full o' Nuts References: <005c01c1d212$40ccea60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <3C9C118E.E2C3339B@earthlink.net> theoldmole wrote: > What's all this nonsense about a coffee cup not being a poem? Didn't Eliot > say that poetry was a mug's game? Didn't one of the Surrealists have a fur-lined coffee cup? Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Sat Mar 23 00:31:51 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:31:51 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Secret of Poetry References: <200203221544.g2MFiQk12495@mx6.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3C9C1343.2ED48272@earthlink.net> Went on a Jane Kenyon kick...after reading "Otherwise" I got all of her volumes of poetry out of the library and read them chronologically (haven't finished yet). I also liked her prose collection -- the only problem was most of the pieces were too short and there just weren't enough of them. I also read Donald Hall's "The Old Life" and "Without" and found them markedly inferior. But like "Birthday Letters" it's hard to criticize "Without" as poetry, it's such a naked testament. Took time off from poetry recently to read William Goldman's "Which Lie Did I Tell," "Selling Ben Cheever," and Barbara Eihrenreich's (sp) "Nickel and Dimed." Her book and Goldman's were excellent; the Cheever was a little cutesy, especially as he admits he didn't really need the low-wage jobs he was getting and didn't stay in them very long. Also read Don Snyder's "The Cliff Walk," about an English professor who gets laid off and winds up doing carpentry work in Maine -- which is extraordinarily good. I don't seem to read many modern novels anymore, but I bought "Satan" by Jeremy Leven (he went to my college) and the "Collected Stories" of Grace Paley in a used bookstore recently. I thought the "Reaper" essays were quite funny and more interesting than most slash-and-burn critical work of that type, probably because the narrative voice never seemed to take itself quite seriously. I don't mean that the writers weren't serious about what they were writing, but they seemed all too aware of the ridiculousness of rhetoric. (The dual interview of the fictional poets did seem a little mean-spirited, though.) Moira Russell Seattle, WA From mbales at cybergate.net Sat Mar 23 06:46:20 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 06:46:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs In-Reply-To: <20020322.131713.-381743.4.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <3C9C24BC.10872.14BCD1DA@localhost> > Marcus: > If you know what right is, what's wrong? And if you know > what > > wrong is, what's right? Does that "take care of" morals for you, > > too? Daisy: > "Right" is by definition the opposite of "wrong"; "poetry" is not, by > definition, the opposite of "prose." > Daisy It's not a matter of "opposites", Daisy -- the problem is with the "knowing". The difficulty is with the knowing. If you "just know" what is right or wrong, or what is prose or poetry, and you cannot say more than that, and you aver that that "settles the matter", then you have retreated into the impregnable fortress of irrationality and your opinion becomes worth less in the free marketplace of ideas. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Mar 23 06:36:47 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 04:36:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Second chance Message-ID: <3C9C68CE.FA666B75@earthlink.net> Here's that questionnaire again. Just in case you missed it and intended to respond. Also a second chance to delete it again ;-) - Jim p.s. - Results so far are somewhat interesting, and of course I will share them. ======================= Some terms and simplified definitions: P.O.D. = "Print-on-demand"; reader selects text online or at a bookstore, purchases it, and a bound custom text arrives at the bookstore or reader's address within 2 weeks (?); not stocked on bookstore shelves. PDF = Text available online in PDF format; downloaded and printed by reader; free, or available via nominal charge or honor system donation. Online = Text accessible online only; free, or via honor system donation. e-book = Reader purchases text online or at a book or computer store (memory card), downloads and views on one of several handheld devices - this technology is improving constantly. text = book-length manuscript Respond by listing # and letter(s) (ex: "1. b" etc.) or deleting answers that do not apply (ex: "3. If you chose electronic publication, which of the following best characterizes your primary reason(s) for doing so: a) audience") Chance for explanations at the end! 1. If, as a writer, you have a text circulating among print publishers/competitions (unsuccessfully, so far) and you are presented with an offer to have it published electronically by a reputable online publisher, would you: a) opt for electronic publication b) continue submitting to print publishers 2. If you chose electronic publication, which format would you most desire: a) P.O.D. b) PDF c) online d) e-book 3. If you chose electronic publication, which of the following would best characterize your *primary* reason for doing so: a) audience b) promotion/publicity c) reviews d) readability e) desire to experiment with new technology 3a. Which of the following best characterizes your next most important consideration for choosing electronic publication: a) audience b) promotion/publicity c) reviews d) readability e) desire to experiment with new technology 4. If you chose to continue seeking print publication, which of the following would best characterize your *primary* reason for doing so: a) audience b) promotion/publicity c) reviews d) readability e) prestige f) tradition 4a. Which of the following best characterizes your next most important consideration for seeking print publication: a) audience b) promotion/publicity c) reviews d) readability e) prestige f) tradition 5. Are there any considerations re. print vs electronic publication that are more important to you than any of the above? Write comments at bottom. 6. Which of the above are you *most* compelled to expound upon? Write comments at bottom. 7. If you have recently read an electronically mediated book or chapbook, in which format(s) did you read it: a) P.O.D. b) PDF c) online d) e-book 7a. How many texts have you read in *any* of the above formats: _____ 8. Do you regularly read as many electronic publications (any kind) as you do print publications: a)Yes b) Almost as many c) Much less d) More 9. If individual works of yours have been published electronically, what is the approximate ratio of your print publications to your electronic publications: ________ 10. If you have had a collection of work (chapbook or book) published electronically, what are the number of downloads to date? _________ James Cervantes: Salt River Review: Poetserv: Homepage: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Readings: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Mar 23 08:01:28 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 08:01:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: William Bronk, "I Thought It Was Harry" Message-ID: I Thought It Was Harry Excuse me. I thought for a moment you were someone I know. It happens to me. One time at *The Circle in the Square* when it *was* still in the Square, I turned my head when the lights went up and saw me there with a girl and another couple. Out in the lobby, I looked right at him and he looked away. I was no one he knew. Well, it takes two, as they say, and I don't know what it would prove anyway. Do we know who we are, do you think? Kids seem to know. One time I asked a little girl. She said she'd been sick. She said she'd looked different and felt different. I said, "Maybe it wasn't you. How do you know?" "Oh, I was me," she said, "I know I was." That part doesn't bother me anymore or not the way it did. I'm nobody else and nobody anyway. It's all the rest I don't know. I don't know anything. It hit me. I thought it was Harry when I saw you and thought, "I'll ask Harry." I don't suppose he knows, though. It's not that I get confused. I don't mean that. If someone appeared and said, "Ask me questions," I wouldn't know where to start. I don't have questions even. It's the way I fade as though I were someone's snapshot left in the light. And the background fades the way it might if we woke in the wrong twilight and things got dim and grey while we waited for them to sharpen. Less and less is real. No fixed point. Questions fix a point, as answers do. Things move again and the only place to move is away. It was wrong: questions and answers are what to be without and all we learn is how sound our ignorance is. That's what I wanted to talk to Harry about. You looked like him. Thank you anyway. --William Bronk Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From roger at nenuphar.freeserve.co.uk Sat Mar 23 09:04:02 2002 From: roger at nenuphar.freeserve.co.uk (roger day) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:04:02 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs References: <3C9C24BC.10872.14BCD1DA@localhost> Message-ID: <008301c1d273$979ac860$f95f86d9@BYRON> "poetry is to prose as dancing is to walking" (sartre, I think, although memory fails on both author *and* quote) To me, any piece of writing which has had time spent formulating it's *shape* on the page and in the air as the dancer on the floor and in the ballroom, qualifies it as poetry. You might well call it "chopped up prose", and certainly poems like the one vilified at the start of this thread *appear* to have had as little time as possible spent on their shape. Still, for the poet of the piece, time in this region has been spent. Others might linger similarly for prose poems and hey! poetic novels, there's another can'o'worms... I'm not sure if this small homily pretends to morals, although it might allow one to identify hummingbirds from parakeets, grasshoppers from stag-beetles. roger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: ; Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:46 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs > > Marcus: > > If you know what right is, what's wrong? And if you know > > what > > > wrong is, what's right? Does that "take care of" morals for you, > > > too? > > Daisy: > > "Right" is by definition the opposite of "wrong"; "poetry" is not, by > > definition, the opposite of "prose." > > Daisy > > It's not a matter of "opposites", Daisy -- the problem is with the > "knowing". The difficulty is with the knowing. If you "just know" > what is right or wrong, or what is prose or poetry, and you cannot > say more than that, and you aver that that "settles the matter", > then you have retreated into the impregnable fortress of irrationality > and your opinion becomes worth less in the free marketplace of > ideas. > > Marcus Bales > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From barr at mail.rochester.edu Sat Mar 23 09:10:59 2002 From: barr at mail.rochester.edu (Brandon Thomas Barr) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 09:10:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chock Full o' Nuts In-Reply-To: <3C9C118E.E2C3339B@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Yes. It was Meret Oppenheim. Incidently, Breton called these surrealist objects "poeme-objet". Brandon Barr University of Rochester On Fri, 22 Mar 2002, odysseus34 wrote: > > > theoldmole wrote: > > > What's all this nonsense about a coffee cup not being a poem? Didn't Eliot > > say that poetry was a mug's game? > > Didn't one of the Surrealists have a fur-lined coffee cup? > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From hruggier at localnet.com Sat Mar 23 10:57:24 2002 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 10:57:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] following the preamble . . . References: <3C976F0E.6CEBE14C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3C9CA5E3.C40F4AE2@localnet.com> James Cervantes wrote: > First, I'd like to apologize to Richard Long and "2 River," for calling > the publication "Two Rivers" in the preamble I posted the other day. I > did in fact mean "2 River," whose electronic chapbooks are a valuable > addition to what's available on the web. > > Here's the questionnaire. It's not scientific, but it's an attempt to > gauge current attitudes and considerations regarding electronic > publication. - Jim > > ======================= > > Some terms and simplified definitions: > > P.O.D. = "Print-on-demand"; reader selects text online or at a > bookstore, purchases it, and a bound custom text arrives at the > bookstore or reader's address within 2 weeks (?); not stocked on > bookstore shelves. > PDF = Text available online in PDF format; downloaded and printed by > reader; free, or available via nominal charge or honor system donation. > Online = Text accessible online only; free, or via honor system donation. > e-book = Reader purchases text online or at a book or computer store > (memory card), downloads and views on one of several handheld devices - > this technology is improving constantly. > text = book-length manuscript > > Respond by listing # and letter(s) (ex: "1. b" etc.) or deleting > answers that do not apply (ex: "3. If you chose electronic publication, > which of the following best characterizes your primary reason(s) for > doing so: a) audience") > Chance for explanations at the end! > > 1. If, as a writer, you have a text circulating among print > publishers/competitions (unsuccessfully, so far) and you are presented > with an offer to have it published electronically by a reputable online > publisher, would you: > a) opt for electronic publication b) continue submitting to print publishers > a)x > 2. If you chose electronic publication, which format would you most desire: > a) P.O.D. b) PDF c) online d) e-book > b)X > 3. If you chose electronic publication, which of the following would > best characterize your *primary* reason for doing so: > a) audience b) promotion/publicity c) reviews d) readability e) desire > to experiment with new technology > e)x > 3a. Which of the following best characterizes your next most important > consideration for choosing electronic publication: > a) audience b) promotion/publicity c) reviews d) readability e) desire > to experiment with new technology > a)x > 4. If you chose to continue seeking print publication, which of the > following would best characterize your *primary* reason for doing so: > a) audience b) promotion/publicity c) reviews d) readability e) > prestige f) tradition > f)x > 4a. Which of the following best characterizes your next most important > consideration for seeking print publication: > a) audience b) promotion/publicity c) reviews d) readability e) > prestige f) tradition > c)x > 5. Are there any considerations re. print vs electronic publication > that are more important to you than any of the above? Write comments at bottom. > Cost and time are important to me. It's so easy to send on line and the response > is usually quick. I save postage; the poems keep moving. Bill Stafford had a > comment about revision - after three or four days the poems harden (sort of like > taffy when you stop pulling it). I feel that way about what has been written. > After three or four sends - I don't believe in the poem anymore. Something like > that. > 6. Which of the above are you *most* compelled to expound upon? Write > comments at bottom. > > 7. If you have recently read an electronically mediated book or > chapbook, in which format(s) did you read it: > a) P.O.D. b) PDF c) online d) e-book > c)x and a)x > 7a. How many texts have you read in *any* of the above formats: 5 or 6 _____ > > 8. Do you regularly read as many electronic publications (any kind) as > you do print publications: > a)Yes b) Almost as many c) Much less > c) x but the ratio is rapidly changing > 9. If individual works of yours have been published electronically, > what is the approximate ratio of your print publications to your > electronic publications: 200 to 10 but again, I've only been sending out on line > for a few months. ________ > > 10. If you have had a collection of work (chapbook or book) published > electronically, what are the number of downloads to date? no > James Cervantes: > Salt River Review: > Poetserv: > Homepage: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Readings: > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From daisyf1 at juno.com Sat Mar 23 11:37:43 2002 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:37:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Lineated prose mad libs Message-ID: <20020323.113745.-96171.0.daisyf1@juno.com> Marcus said: > It's not a matter of "opposites", Daisy -- the problem is with the > "knowing". The difficulty is with the knowing. If you "just know" > what is right or wrong, or what is prose or poetry, and you cannot > say more than that, and you aver that that "settles the matter", > then you have retreated into the impregnable fortress of > irrationality > and your opinion becomes worth less in the free marketplace of > ideas. But it was you who seemed to suggest it was a matter of opposites, Marcus. You substituted the opposite words 'right' & 'wrong'--and someone, I forget who, previously substituted other opposites, 'up' & 'down'--in a statement where the original words were not opposites, in order to show the statement to be problematic. The statement may be problematic, but not for the reasons you give: your analogy does not hold, so your (apparent) argument does not hold. Thus "you have retreated into the impregnable fortress" of illogic. I trust we agree that it's useful to know what's right, because then one can avoid doing wrong. It's also useful to know what 'up' is because you can then avoid taking the down elevator if you don't want to. There's no similar use to saying 'this is poetry' and 'this is prose,' except to make vague descriptions, but even those descriptions will be less interesting than any number of other things that can be said about a piece of writing. I believe the point of the Stein quote is not about "just knowing" (your phrase) but about a substantive "not knowing." When I say "that settles that for me" I am saying that I don't particularly care what is, abstractly, poetry, or prose--that it is of little use to me to say 'if it has x and y qualities it is poetry' while 'if it has z and w qualities it is prose.' Any such assertion would likely be demonstrably wrong (ie, the opposite of right). The term "lineated prose" can of course suggest any number of things: that the meaning/feel/sound of the poem would not change if it were written in paragraph form; that the poem has little to do with traditional meters; that the person using the term thinks the poet has a tin ear; that the person using the term is a conservative who doesn't want to say something more specific and substantial about the poem, etc. but wishes to dismiss it because s/he is distressed about The State of Poetry Today, etc., etc. As it happens I have a bad cold and therefore I do not, in fact, know the difference between up and down today. Daisy From daisyf1 at juno.com Sat Mar 23 11:47:53 2002 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 11:47:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: book bag Message-ID: <20020323.114754.-96171.1.daisyf1@juno.com> > > And what's in YOUR book bag these days? Kate (Katharine) Coles' _The Golden Years of the Fourth Dimension_ Janet Holmes' _Humanophone_ Maurice Manning's _Lawrence Booth's Book of Visions_ Albert Goldbarth's _Saving Lives_ Simone De Beauvoir's _The Mandarins_ Daisy From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat Mar 23 13:11:10 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 13:11:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: book bag References: <20020323.114754.-96171.1.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <001401c1d296$1f6c4080$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I'm reading, slowly and with great pleasure, Michael Schmidt's Lives of the Poets. At AWP, I picked up books by Marvin Bell, Janet Holmes, Mary Crow, Meg Kearney. Haven't gotten to Crow's book yet, though I'm looking forward to it. Kearney's "The Unkindness of Ravens" is a terrific first book. She dances around poetry of the personal, but always with a edgy awareness that the world is not what it seems. Bell's "Nightworks: is collected and new, and the new stuff includes the resurrected Dead Man poems, which are powerful and technically unsettling, as Bell takes his one sentence-one line structure, and subverts it while adhering to it. I love Holmes's "Humanophone" -- the extended exploration of the artist and of the nature of perception. I'm reading and rereading it now, and letting it grow on me. Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daisy Fried" To: Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 11:47 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: book bag > > > > > And what's in YOUR book bag these days? > > Kate (Katharine) Coles' _The Golden Years of the Fourth Dimension_ > Janet Holmes' _Humanophone_ > Maurice Manning's _Lawrence Booth's Book of Visions_ > Albert Goldbarth's _Saving Lives_ > Simone De Beauvoir's _The Mandarins_ > > Daisy > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Cadaly at aol.com Sat Mar 23 14:53:29 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:53:29 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs Message-ID: few of these discussions ever seem to include prose sooo... Stein wrote poetry and prose; 1) Stanzas in Meditation is poetry to the prose of Auto. of Alice B. 2) "Susie Asado" is a poem, whereas "Three Lives" is not 3) What is Tender Buttons We are amid a resurgence of short fiction and prose poems. 1) some editors only consider these to be shorts if they have a plot, characters, a voice 2) some editors consider these to be prose poems Baudelaire's prose poems: really, are they? (or, why did Richard Howard only translate Fleurs du Mal?) If Baudelaire's are prose poems (he called them prose poems), why aren't ______'s writings prose poems? Michael Benedikt, early Michael Davidson, Russell Edson Barthelme: prose poetry? Borges' were fictions to his poems... Name your surrealist? Meret Oppenheim covered a teacup, saucer and spoon with fur -- or is that Meter Oppenheim? There is a continuum, with flash fiction divided between pieces with characters and plot, pieces which are like fables, etc. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Mar 23 16:38:06 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:38:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Editors--are they prose or poetry? What color are they? Are they real, surreal, or irreal? Where do they come from? Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. --Noam Chomsky Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard few of these discussions ever seem to include prose sooo... Stein wrote poetry and prose; 1) Stanzas in Meditation is poetry to the prose of Auto. of Alice B. 2) "Susie Asado" is a poem, whereas "Three Lives" is not 3) What is Tender Buttons We are amid a resurgence of short fiction and prose poems. 1) some editors only consider these to be shorts if they have a plot, characters, a voice 2) some editors consider these to be prose poems Baudelaire's prose poems: really, are they? (or, why did Richard Howard only translate Fleurs du Mal?) If Baudelaire's are prose poems (he called them prose poems), why aren't ______'s writings prose poems? Michael Benedikt, early Michael Davidson, Russell Edson Barthelme: prose poetry? Borges' were fictions to his poems... Name your surrealist? Meret Oppenheim covered a teacup, saucer and spoon with fur -- or is that Meter Oppenheim? There is a continuum, with flash fiction divided between pieces with characters and plot, pieces which are like fables, etc. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Mar 23 17:54:28 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 17:54:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs References: Message-ID: <000f01c1d2bd$b0939b40$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> >Editors--are they prose or poetry? They are both and neither, and by "neither" I mean not blue, but blue. Green furiously sleeps unders to of of for nice. Urge blue, not uncles. This is mathematics because I say so. --Bob G., astrophysicist -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Sat Mar 23 18:39:55 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 18:39:55 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs Message-ID: In a message dated 3/23/02 5:56:14 PM, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: << >Editors--are they prose or poetry? They are both and neither, and by "neither" I mean not blue, but blue. Green furiously sleeps unders to of of for nice. Urge blue, not uncles. This is mathematics because I say so. --Bob G., astrophysicist >> Following days following this discourse from Dublin to Cork to Bantry to Vestry it follows, Joyce will have an answer and, hahoo, he doesn't disappoint, let him speak for hisself: --One thing I never understood, he said, to be original on the spur of the moment, why they put tables upside down at night, I mean chairs upside down on the tables in cafes. To which impromptu the never failing Bloom replied without a moment's hesitation, saying straight off: --To sweep the floor in the morning. This, seems to me, the only argument for lineation in the first place, to save room for to sweep out them pesky margins in the second place, but this is an important assignment, so we have ourselves the blessed second coming of the white space in the third space, um, place, which is what scared us off (be honest now) in the first race. But this is a new millennium, an age of commitment, so I say they's poetry in wolve's togs, just look at the name tags, but with chanting and O that awful deepdown torrent and all the queer little streets and pink and blue and yellow houses and the rosegardens and the jessamine and geraniums. Jeffrey L, home and no doubt fiscally unfit From gmcvay at patriot.net Sat Mar 23 19:36:54 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:36:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: book bag In-Reply-To: <20020323.114754.-96171.1.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: Just finished the Habegger bio of Dickinson, and Peter Matthiessen's _Birds of Heaven: Travels with Cranes_. Also: John Ashbery & Joe Brainard, _The Vermont Notebook_ Gertrude Stein, _To Do: A Book of Alphabets and Birthdays_ (this was a birthday present and I recommend it highly, especially as a birthday present for someone you know who was born on his birthday... see book) _Wild Ivy: The Spiritual Autobiography of Zen Master Hakuin_, trans. Norman Waddell Apollinaire, _The Poet Assassinated_ (whose title is a fantasy for anyone who has ever had to read after some oaf who goes way, way over the allotted time) Gwyn From Arielpf123 at aol.com Sat Mar 23 19:58:43 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:58:43 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: book bag Message-ID: In a message dated 3/23/02 7:37:53 PM, gmcvay at patriot.net writes: << this was a birthday present and I recommend it highly, especially as a birthday present for someone you know who was born on his birthday >> EVERYONE I know was born on his birthday (or hers as the case may be). patf From mbales at cybergate.net Sat Mar 23 20:49:38 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 20:49:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Lineated prose mad libs In-Reply-To: <20020323.113745.-96171.0.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <3C9CEA62.8690.17C0FFD7@localhost> > But it was you who seemed to suggest it was a matter of opposites, > Marcus. You substituted the opposite words 'right' & 'wrong'--and > someone, I forget who, previously substituted other opposites, 'up' & > 'down'--in a statement where the original words were not opposites, in > order to show the statement to be problematic. The statement may be > problematic, but not for the reasons you give: your analogy does not > hold, so your (apparent) argument does not hold.<< This is disingenuous at best; the clear point is the knowing, not the opposites. The Gertrude Stein quote you quoted was not about opposites but about knowing. My question to you about right and wrong is whether *knowing* right and wrong without being able to articulate what right is and what wrong is "settles the matter" for you. You have, of course, failed to answer the important question while attempting to red-herring your way out of answering. The question was, and remains, do you "just know" right from wrong, as you "just know" poetry from prose, and does "just knowing" do something like "settle the matter" for you, without any other investigation? > I believe the point of the Stein quote is not about "just knowing" (your > phrase) but about a substantive "not knowing." When I say "that settles > that for me" I am saying that I don't particularly care what is, > abstractly, poetry, or prose--that it is of little use to me to say 'if > it has x and y qualities it is poetry' while 'if it has z and w qualities > it is prose.' Any > such assertion would likely be demonstrably wrong << Well, it seems to me that if you are, as some others are, willing to say that poetry (or prose, for that matter) is anything that anyone pleases to call it, then how do you avoid the reduction to the absurd that Daisy Fried is a poem by Marcus Bales because Marcus Bales claims it is so? There is little utility in having words that are so broadly used that they mean nothing at all because they are claimed to mean anything at all. You might as well claim that by intoning the word "poetry" you have said everything possible to say -- it's an absurd position to say that the word "poetry" has no meaning. The problem is to discover what meaning it *does* have. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Mar 23 21:16:54 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 21:16:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs References: Message-ID: <000601c1d2d9$f9131c80$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> > This, seems to me, the only argument for lineation in the first place, to > save room for to sweep out them pesky margins in the second place, but this > is an important assignment, if we decide words have a communal meaning, then prose is precisely to a margin so as not to be cluttered, lineation is to defeat the sweepers --Bob G. From mbales at cybergate.net Sat Mar 23 21:35:53 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 21:35:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs In-Reply-To: <000601c1d2d9$f9131c80$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> Message-ID: <3C9CF539.9392.17EB593B@localhost> Bob Grumman: > if we decide words have a communal meaning ... << Aha -- the crux. So, those of you who seem to be holding that words do not have a communal meaning, why do you take that view -- if, in fact, you do? Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sat Mar 23 22:05:21 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 19:05:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #691 - 6 msgs Message-ID: <20020324030521.4C8C636F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Sat Mar 23 23:29:08 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 23:29:08 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs Message-ID: <164.ae6845b.29ceb014@aol.com> In a message dated 3/23/02 9:18:00 PM, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: << > This, seems to me, the only argument for lineation in the first place, to > save room for to sweep out them pesky margins in the second place, but this > is an important assignment, if we decide words have a communal meaning, then prose is precisely to a margin so as not to be cluttered, lineation is to defeat the sweepers --Bob G. >> if we decide words to have a communal meaning, then we'd best put "clutter" to a vote, as the sweepers don't have a clue where to empty their bins. oh, and I say the white space shall have its franchise, even in absentia. Jeffrey L. From Cadaly at aol.com Sun Mar 24 01:25:06 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 01:25:06 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs Message-ID: I read today the greeks used the same word for "green" and "yellow" as did an American Indian tribe (diff. word, same word for green and yellow) the book (called THE UNIVERSE AND THE TEACUP) also said that it was considered that green and yellow were part of the same continua, but different from those of blue and red and in fact, green is the primary in light, yellow in paint, yet even in paint, you mix yellow with black and get olive green Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net Thanks, Janet, for that link. What a fantastic person and site. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From daisyf1 at juno.com Sun Mar 24 08:18:23 2002 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 08:18:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #715 - 11 msgs Message-ID: <20020324.081823.-185995.0.daisyf1@juno.com> then how do you avoid the reduction to the > absurd that Daisy Fried is a poem by Marcus Bales because > Marcus Bales claims it is so? You don't, and if you can sell that to somebody, feel free. It's not a very interesting poem, I can tell you that from personal experience, and I doubt you'd get very good reviews... Daisy From roger at nenuphar.freeserve.co.uk Sun Mar 24 08:46:50 2002 From: roger at nenuphar.freeserve.co.uk (roger day) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 13:46:50 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs References: <3C9CF539.9392.17EB593B@localhost> Message-ID: <012001c1d33a$5bfb14f0$34f086d9@BYRON> I think language has both a chemical and communal element - although chemistry butts in all the time and communality is forced on us by humanity's phenotype. So, even though we *think* we are coming to self-determined, cosy agreements about what a poem is, somewhere in that large pea floating in a chemical soup I call my brain, unique combinations of pre-determiners are kicking in and deflecting those logical arguments from being just that.. I'd buy that poem. roger. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 02:35 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs > Bob Grumman: > > if we decide words have a communal meaning ... << > > Aha -- the crux. > > So, those of you who seem to be holding that words do not have a > communal meaning, why do you take that view -- if, in fact, you do? > > > > Marcus Bales > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mbales at cybergate.net Sun Mar 24 09:37:45 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 09:37:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #715 - 11 msgs In-Reply-To: <20020324.081823.-185995.0.daisyf1@juno.com> Message-ID: <3C9D9E69.19059.1A805946@localhost> MB: > > then how do you avoid the reduction to the > > absurd that Daisy Fried is a poem by Marcus Bales because > > Marcus Bales claims it is so? DF: > You don't...<< And that's a problem for your views, then, isn't it. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Mar 24 10:50:06 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 10:50:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <3C9D9E69.19059.1A805946@localhost> Message-ID: <004a01c1d34b$9255f7c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> The chief problem with reductio ad absurdum is that it's absurd. Ideas -- however crackbrained they may seem -- have a right to be heard, and tested, in the free market. It is of little value to offer up an idea which has no credibility to the offerer, and present that as proof that other ideas have no credibility. David Graham, who has wisely withdrawn from this debate, actually tried to forestall reductio ad absurdum before it started, by saying he _did not_ think that a coffee cup should be presented as poetry. If you don't think that you can claim Daisy Fried, or David Graham, or my sex life as poetry, why claim it? If you do think it, then make a case for it, and let that case stand or fall on its own merits. What's the difference between poetry and lineated prose? I'd certainly like to read Marcus's distinction. \ Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #715 - 11 msgs > MB: > > > then how do you avoid the reduction to the > > > absurd that Daisy Fried is a poem by Marcus Bales because > > > Marcus Bales claims it is so? > > DF: > > You don't...<< > > And that's a problem for your views, then, isn't it. > > > > Marcus Bales > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Sun Mar 24 13:38:31 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:38:31 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A Mug's Game Message-ID: <200203241838.g2OIc0964676@mx17.mx.voyager.net> >David Graham, who has wisely withdrawn from this debate, actually tried to >forestall reductio ad absurdum before it started, by saying he _did not_ >think that a coffee cup should be presented as poetry. Thanks for noticing, Tad! If I can withdraw my withdrawal momentarily, one other thought occurs. Discussions of poetry that start by dividing the whole genre up primarily by way of formal traits interest me less and less these days. One reason is that, to the degree that the division is tidy, it fails to account for a lot of pretty interesting writing in recent decades. Another reason is that the arguments have, since 1914 or so, been done to death. Call it reductio ad tedium. Still another reason is that as a reader I simply care more about other matters than whether a given poem is in meter, enjambed or end-stopped free verse, lineated prose, etc. I've been re-reading Ellen Voigt's book *The Flexible Lyric* recently, the title essay of which makes a valiant (and maybe only partly successful) attempt to broaden the usual terms of such discussions beyond the old free verse/metrical verse dichotomy. Her terms, re-defined from the New Critics, include "texture," "structure," and "form." I'm not entirely convinced I want to hang my hat on her schema, but I do appreciate her desire to get beyond stale generic definitions, and to re-think the basics. One advantage of her sort of method, seems to me, is that she can discuss poems in or out of meter without taking "sides" in that particular debate. In other words, metrical and other rhythmic effects are part of what she notices, but only part. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ---------- >From: "theoldmole" >To: >Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game >Date: Sun, Mar 24, 2002, 9:50 AM > >The chief problem with reductio ad absurdum is that it's absurd. Ideas -- >however crackbrained they may seem -- have a right to be heard, and tested, >in the free market. It is of little value to offer up an idea which has no >credibility to the offerer, and present that as proof that other ideas have >no credibility. > >David Graham, who has wisely withdrawn from this debate, actually tried to >forestall reductio ad absurdum before it started, by saying he _did not_ >think that a coffee cup should be presented as poetry. > >If you don't think that you can claim Daisy Fried, or David Graham, or my >sex life as poetry, why claim it? If you do think it, then make a case for >it, and let that case stand or fall on its own merits. > >What's the difference between poetry and lineated prose? I'd certainly like >to read Marcus's distinction. > > > From mbales at cybergate.net Sun Mar 24 19:06:06 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 19:06:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <004a01c1d34b$9255f7c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <3C9E239E.26417.1C88C3ED@localhost> > The chief problem with reductio ad absurdum is that it's absurd. Ideas -- > however crackbrained they may seem -- have a right to be heard, and tested, > in the free market. It is of little value to offer up an idea which has no > credibility to the offerer, and present that as proof that other ideas have > no credibility.<< But that view misrepresents the notion of the reduction to the absurd -- it is not that it is *merely* absurd, but that it shows the absurdity of the starting point by demonstrating the downward arc from that point into the absurd. > If you don't think that you can claim Daisy Fried, or David Graham, or my > sex life as poetry, why claim it? If you do think it, then make a case for > it, and let that case stand or fall on its own merits.<< Because the point I'm trying to make has nothing to do with whether a good case can be made that my mere claim that your sex life is my poem is a good one: it is transparently a bad case, and that's the point -- because if you hold that anything that anyone claims is a poem is a poem then you must deal with the question of why it seems such a transparently bad claim to claim that your sex life is my poem if I merely make the claim that it is. > What's the difference between poetry and lineated prose?<< If, instead of calling it all "verse" and reserving the word "poetry" for the good stuff, we just call it all "poetry" and distinguish between good and bad, it might be less fractious; but maybe not. Nonetheless, that's what I propose to do here. First, though, let me dispose of the notion that poetry is supposed to be good for something in the real world of flesh and money: it's not -- or, at least, no more good than any other sport. Poetry is an intellectual sport, more like chess than we may want to acknowledge and more like numerology with words than we want to admit. Poetry is not a profession, nor are poets unacknowledged legislators of the world. Poets do something different than chess players and crossword- puzzle solvers, though, in this respect: poets claim that their work is significant in the real world. Poets are wrong about this, but they claim it anyway -- and it is in weighing that claim that the fun begins. Poetry inheres in the presentation of the matter to a reader capable of responding to both the presentation and to the matter. It is at the juncture between the poem and the reader that poetry occurs, if it occurs -- and where there is no appropriate audience there is no poetry. This is more surprising than the assertion that where there is no poet there is no poetry, but it's just as true. What this means is that the vast majority of those who say that this or that or the other thing is "not poetry" are perfectly correct. The engineer who, on encountering Yeats, finds such hokum repugnant is right to decide to forbear reading more; the retiree who can still quote Swinburne's Here, where the world is quiet; Here, where all trouble seems Dead winds' and spent waves' riot In doubtful dreams of dreams; I watch the green field growing For reaping folk and sowing, For harvest-time and mowing, A sleepy world of streams. I am tired of tears and laughter, And men that laugh and weep; Of what may come hereafter For men that sow to reap: I am weary of days and hours, Blown buds of barren flowers, Desires and dreams and powers And everything but sleep. who, on encountering Merwin reads: When I was beginning to read I imagined that bridges had something to do with birds and with what seemed to be cages but I knew that they were not cages it must have been autumn with the dusty light flashing from the streetcar wires and those orange places on fire in the pictures and now indeed it is autumn the clear days not far from the sea with a small wind nosing over dry grass that yesterday was green the empty corn standing trembling and a down of ghost flowers veiling the ignored fields and everywhere the colors I cannot take my eyes from all of them red even the wide streams red it is the season of migrants flying at night feeling the turning earth beneath them and I woke in the city hearing the call notes of the plover then again and again before I slept and here far downriver flocking together echoing close to the shore the longest bridges have opened their slender wings and wonders what qualifies *that* as "poetry" is right, too, to avoid the Merwins of the world. Poetry is created by an agreement between the reader and the writer: the writer demands that the reader read the arranged words in a special way -- not special as in "Special Olympics" but special as in "rare and significant" -- and the reader must acquiesce to that demand or no poetry can be expected to result. It's hard work to read poems as if they were rare and significant; one must bring to the poem all one's tact and taste and education, formal or informal, and look for the correspondences between the tone and manner of presentation and the context of the matter being presented. One must, in short, trust that the poet isn't just wasting one's time with a trivial or otherwise inappropriate claim on one's serious attention. It is a bitter disappointment to find that a poet has wasted one's time and energy; encounter that disappointment often enough and the cry of "Poetry!" is as disregarded as the suspect cry of "Wolf!" in the story, and much can be lost thereby. It is because of the risk of losing much that astute and acute readers expect editors not to cry "Poetry!" where there is none, or to offer cues and clues to the reader about the poems on offer so that the readers can adjust their focuses to see what the editor sees and judge for themselves whether he or she is right. Poetry is about presentation; it is how a thing is said, not what is said -- and the notion that poets are actually doing philosophy in short takes, that poets are actually thinkers of deep thoughts instead of perceivers of the relationships between language and people's behavior is laughable. Talk to any group of poets at any decent length about any serious issue in philosophy and you'll be disabused of the notion that they are deep thinkers. There was a good reason Plato left poets out of the Republic. Poets are noticers, and poetry is a communication of noticing -- but poets are not thinkers and poetry is not thinking. The matter of most poems (perhaps of all poems) is banal and even trite; it is the manner that creates poetry -- the creation of a context of significance in which the cliched matter is transformed into an affecting significance. The techniques for accomplishing this transformation are many and varied, and poets would be better off for studying rhetoric and logic and, yes, even the canonical poets, in order better to understand and, it is to be hoped, use the tools that 2500 years of civilization have made available to them -- but it's not likely to happen soon. So is poetry a matter of the silence of the spaces or of the rhythm of the lines or of the rhyming of the words or of the dicing of the lines? No -- though all those things are ways to speak of how any given poem may accomplish its effects. The poetry is in the persuasion of the reader that the poet has presented some matter of significantly. Poetry is rhetoric. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From gmcvay at patriot.net Sun Mar 24 21:14:12 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:14:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <3C9E239E.26417.1C88C3ED@localhost> Message-ID: <3C9E87E5.87652BD3@patriot.net> >>> ---- not special as in "Special Olympics" <<< Dear Marcus, WTF would be wrong with being associated with Special Olympics? I worked for them for two years and am tired of seeing them used as a stereotype or diss. The canard that "everybody wins" in the sense of reward is untrue; at competitions such as the World Games, there are people who get gold, silver, or bronze medals, and people who simply do not. And the athletes are constantly taught how to accept that fact with grace. In fact, the Special Olympics oath is, and always has been, "Let me win, but if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." I have found SO athletes better sportsmen than Olympic-Olympic athletes, and "mentally retarded" co-workers there more on the ball than certain occupants of the executive suite. Y'all go hit www.specialolympics.org. They're more interesting than you might think. Gwyn From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu Tue Mar 19 14:12:49 2002 From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 13:12:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring/Summer 2002 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ Message-ID: NEWS RELEASE: WEDNESDAY, MARCH 20, 2002 Announcement: Publication of the Spring/Summer 2002 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_. The Spring/Summer 2002 issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_ is now officially available at the following url: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ The featured poet for the Spring/Summer 2002 issue is David Baker. Other poets include Barry Ballard, Jared Carter, Catherine Daly, John Gilgun, Marie C. Jones, Mary Linxweiler, Walt McDonald, Vivian Shipley, Floyd Skloot, Daniel Tobin, and James R. Whitley. The new issue also contains an interview with Walt McDonald, a David Baker essay on contemporary poetry, a commentary on the cover art by Stuart Davis, and reviews of works by David Baker, Jared Carter, Michael Palmer, and Vivian Shipley. As always, the new issue includes a list of recently received and recommended books of poetry or poetics, as well as guidelines for submissions. Submissions and review copies of books are always welcome. In addition, all past issues of VPR remain available for reading. -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From mbales at cybergate.net Sun Mar 24 21:44:03 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:44:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3C9E87E5.87652BD3@patriot.net> Message-ID: <3C9E48A3.22150.1D1962F4@localhost> MB: > >>> ---- not special as in "Special Olympics" <<< Gwyn: > WTF would be wrong with being associated with Special > Olympics?< The Special Olympics are not a test of excellence at games but rather of compassion, and, thus, they are special in the sense of being set apart out of compassion rather then set apart as a result of excellence at games. That sense of "special" was not the connotation I was looking for, and since someone had previously indicated that he was inclined to read (apparently) any use of "special" to mean as in "Special Olympics" and not as in "rare and significant", so I tried to make my meaning clear by distinguishing the one connotation from the other. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From gmcvay at patriot.net Sun Mar 24 21:51:45 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 21:51:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <3C9E48A3.22150.1D1962F4@localhost> Message-ID: <3C9E90AD.FDFD2B8C@patriot.net> Dear Marcus, I appreciate your clarification, but, from personal experience, I continue to maintain that Special Olympics can and do measure actual excellence at games rather than merely condescending to mentally disabled athletes. Again, when you have leisure, please do look at www.specialolympics.org; I can assure you that Special Olympics athletes worldwide really do have a keen focus on developing excellence in their sport. The equestrian sport division is a particularly good case in point: people who screw up or goof around on horses can easily end up pinned under 2,000 pounds of animal. You *have* to have a focus on skill to work with a horse that way in the first place. Gwyn From mbales at cybergate.net Sun Mar 24 22:17:01 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 22:17:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3C9E90AD.FDFD2B8C@patriot.net> Message-ID: <3C9E505D.24436.1D37928C@localhost> Gwyn: > I appreciate your clarification, but, from personal experience, I > continue to maintain that Special Olympics can and do measure actual > excellence at games rather than merely condescending to mentally > disabled athletes.<< I don't assert that the Special Olympics condescend to mentally disabled players; I merely distinguish the meaning of "special" in "Special Olympics" from the meaning of "special" as in "rare and significant". Whatever else the Special Olympians are, they are not the best in the world at the games -- for if they were they wouldn't need a "special" Olympics: they'd compete in the Olympics. And it is that distinction that I'm drawing when I say "Poetry is created by an agreement between the reader and the writer: the writer demands that the reader read the arranged words in a special way -- not special as in "Special Olympics" but special as in "rare and significant" -- and the reader must acquiesce to that demand or no poetry can be expected to result." Perhaps there are journals and forums where there are Special Poets who write Special Poetry that is judged for sincerity and effort and not for excellence in the wider world, but such journals and forums stand in relation to the wider world of poetry as the Special Olympics stand in relation to the Olympics. It is precisely because I want to make it clear that I am not talking about journals and forums that are special in the Special Olympics sense that I distinguish one sense of "special" from another. Gwyn: > Again, when you have leisure, please do look at > www.specialolympics.org; I can assure you that Special Olympics athletes > worldwide really do have a keen focus on developing excellence in their > sport.<< I don't dispute that Special Olympians have a keen focus on developing excellence in their games -- I only point out that they are still not very good at them when compared to the players who play those same games in the Olympics. That's why, it seems to me the Special Olympics are "special": exactly to distinguish them from the Olympics. Gwyn: > The equestrian sport division is a particularly good case in > point: people who screw up or goof around on horses can easily end up > pinned under 2,000 pounds of animal. You *have* to have a focus on skill > to work with a horse that way in the first place.< Certainly one has to have a focus on skill to do many things -- but mere focus on skill, even competence in controlling a horse, doesn't get you into the Olympics. Those participants in the Special Olympics are in the Special Olympics because they cannot compete successfully in the wider world of those games. They may bge competent at controlling their mounts, but mere competence is not enough to be judged to have excelled. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Mon Mar 25 02:41:16 2002 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 23:41:16 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020324234115.00dde414@medicine.nodak.edu> Before the sloppy-weather rugby match about how to distinguish poems from prose gets even more obscured by the Special Olympics, I'd like to sling in a little more muddy water from safely on the sidelines: I seem to recall somewhere a claim (perhaps by my high-school teachers), that iambic pentameter has become so ingrained in English and American writing (whether by our educational systems, an inclination of the language itself, or other mysterious causes) that many or most extended passages of prose in English (particularly prose superior in quality) are actually constructed in only moderately distorted iambic pentameter. Can any experts tell me whether there's any smidgin of truth in this? I once experimentally tried breaking up a particularly vivid section in Lowry's *Under the Volcano* into iambic pentameter and found I could do this with not much difficulty for several paragraphs or pages. Would such a habit of prose style make it even more difficult to separate poems by amateurs from prose? Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From cstroffo at earthlink.net Mon Mar 25 06:17:59 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 03:17:59 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <3C9E48A3.22150.1D1962F4@localhost> <3C9E90AD.FDFD2B8C@patriot.net> Message-ID: <3C9F0767.169265CE@earthlink.net> thanks for this gwyn--- in an essay a few years back i quoted approvingly thomas disch saying poetry scenes are like special olympics---i repent my error.... c Gwyn McVay wrote: > Dear Marcus, > > I appreciate your clarification, but, from personal experience, I > continue to maintain that Special Olympics can and do measure actual > excellence at games rather than merely condescending to mentally > disabled athletes. Again, when you have leisure, please do look at > www.specialolympics.org; I can assure you that Special Olympics athletes > worldwide really do have a keen focus on developing excellence in their > sport. The equestrian sport division is a particularly good case in > point: people who screw up or goof around on horses can easily end up > pinned under 2,000 pounds of animal. You *have* to have a focus on skill > to work with a horse that way in the first place. > > Gwyn > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mbales at cybergate.net Mon Mar 25 08:19:25 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (mbales at cybergate.net) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 08:19:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020324234115.00dde414@medicine.nodak.edu> Message-ID: <3C9EDD8D.15913.282B57@localhost> Richard W. Wilsnack: Before the sloppy-weather rugby match About how to distinguish poems from prose Gets even more obscured by the Special Olympics, I'd like to sling in a little more muddy water From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Mon Mar 25 09:37:17 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:37:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3C9E239E.26417.1C88C3ED@localhost> References: <004a01c1d34b$9255f7c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325091804.00aa64c0@postoffice.brown.edu> These "what is poetry?" swamps are always fun to explore. I find it curious, Marcus, that after asserting a distinction between poetry and prose, you go on to call poetry a reader-defined piece of rhetorical "presentation" which for the most part succeeds in persuading said reader that cliches are significant. How does that distinguish it from prose? I think poetry can, at least in a general way, without strict borders, be distinguished from prose on the one hand and rhetoric on the other. As Mukarovsky argues, there is a general structure to prose sentence syntax. Poetry binds sentence structure with a second structure, lineation, and this double rhythm creates the distinct, highly-articulated architecture of poetic syntax and rhythm. As for rhetoric, you are the 2nd person I've encountered on lists lately who argues that poetry is rhetoric. I think it's important to maintain a distinction between the two, otherwise you end up trivializing poetry & poets (as you did in your post). I see more affinities between poets (and musicians & painters), and scientists or philosophers, than with rhetoricians. The rhetorician shapes language for targeted audiences and immediate, particular ends. For the poet, language, vision and imagination are experienced and shaped in order to express an inner impulse toward beauty and order which is as detached from immediate or willed ends as are the speculations of the theoretical physicist. In saying this I don't deny the usefulness of studying logic, rhetoric, and the artistic products"2500 years of civilization", as you suggested. Henry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Mar 25 09:59:22 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 09:59:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <004a01c1d34b$9255f7c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020325091804.00aa64c0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <002401c1d40d$a64e57a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Henry -- Makes sense to me. Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Gould" To: Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game > These "what is poetry?" swamps are always fun to explore. I find it > curious, Marcus, that after asserting a distinction between poetry and > prose, you go on to call poetry a reader-defined piece of rhetorical > "presentation" which for the most part succeeds in persuading said reader > that cliches are significant. How does that distinguish it from prose? > > I think poetry can, at least in a general way, without strict borders, be > distinguished from prose on the one hand and rhetoric on the other. As > Mukarovsky argues, there is a general structure to prose sentence > syntax. Poetry binds sentence structure with a second structure, > lineation, and this double rhythm creates the distinct, highly-articulated > architecture of poetic syntax and rhythm. > > As for rhetoric, you are the 2nd person I've encountered on lists lately > who argues that poetry is rhetoric. I think it's important to maintain a > distinction between the two, otherwise you end up trivializing poetry & > poets (as you did in your post). I see more affinities between poets (and > musicians & painters), and scientists or philosophers, than with > rhetoricians. The rhetorician shapes language for targeted audiences and > immediate, particular ends. For the poet, language, vision and imagination > are experienced and shaped in order to express an inner impulse toward > beauty and order which is as detached from immediate or willed ends as are > the speculations of the theoretical physicist. In saying this I don't deny > the usefulness of studying logic, rhetoric, and the artistic products"2500 > years of civilization", as you suggested. > > Henry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mbales at cybergate.net Mon Mar 25 10:22:29 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (mbales at cybergate.net) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:22:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325091804.00aa64c0@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <3C9E239E.26417.1C88C3ED@localhost> Message-ID: <3C9EFA65.16097.98DBE3@localhost> Henry Gould: > ... I find it > curious, Marcus, that after asserting a distinction between poetry and > prose, you go on to call poetry a reader-defined piece of rhetorical > "presentation" which for the most part succeeds in persuading said reader > that cliches are significant. How does that distinguish it from prose?<< I asked if there was a distinction between poetry and prose, and if there was, what is it? How do we distinguish what someone calls poetry from what someone else calls prose? I propose, in fact, that there is a difference between poetry and prose, and that that difference exists in the demand that the poet makes to be read in a special way and in the acquiesence of the reader to read the matter in a special way -- a way that evaluates the quality of the work by examining the interplay between the manner and the matter, with the manner the more important element. My question originally was why not call the McManus poem prose that is laid out on the page to suggest that it should be read by the reader as poetry -- that is to say, with greater attention to how the thing is said than to the thing itself because I cannot discern (perhaps others can) the tension between manner and matter that it seems to me is a crucial element of poetry. But to answer your question more directly, I hope, it seems to me that the difference between poetry and prose inheres in the primacy of the manner of presentation over the matter presented. There is rarely, if ever, anything presented in the matter poetry presents us that is not banal or trite in and of itself. What makes poetry interesting, or powerful, or touching, or whatever, is the same thing that makes advertising interesting or powerful or touching or whatever: the manner of presentation. Henry Gould: > I think poetry can, at least in a general way, without strict > borders, be > distinguished from prose on the one hand and rhetoric on the other. As > Mukarovsky argues, there is a general structure to prose sentence > syntax. Poetry binds sentence structure with a second structure, > lineation, and this double rhythm creates the distinct, highly-articulated > architecture of poetic syntax and rhythm.<< I agree, by and large. It's the border country that creates controversy. I read McManus's poem and couldn't discern the distinct, highly-articulated architecture of poetic syntax and rhythm. What did you think? > As for rhetoric, you are the 2nd person I've encountered on lists lately > who argues that poetry is rhetoric. I think it's important to maintain a > distinction between the two, otherwise you end up trivializing poetry & > poets (as you did in your post). << What poets are good at doing, as a general rule, is codifying the commonplaces of their time into terms that are widely recognized as well-said. There is honor in that -- there is just not as much honor as poets would ordinarily like to claim. Henry Gould: > I see more affinities between poets (and > musicians & painters), and scientists or philosophers, than with > rhetoricians.<< I disagree. Scientists and philosophers are seeking the facts or the truth, and sometimes the integration of the two -- but poets are just trying, like musicians and painters, to catch a cultural wave. They are, I assert again, rhetoricians who do indeed, as you say, shape language for targeted audiences and immediate particular ends. Those audiences are readers who have the cultural background to appreciate the manner of presentation, and the ends are to be rewarded for the work that goes into the manner of their presentations -- even if only by the merest reward, a copy of a magazine, a couple bucks, or acknowledgment as a poet. Henry Gould: > The rhetorician shapes language for targeted audiences and > immediate, particular ends. For the poet, language, vision and imagination > are experienced and shaped in order to express an inner impulse toward > beauty and order which is as detached from immediate or willed ends as are > the speculations of the theoretical physicist.<< I disagree. It seems to me that there is a fundamental difference between the theoretical physicist and the poet. The physicist is actually trying to explain reality, and proposes testable theories trying to explain that reality and how it works. The poet is not trying to explain reality, nor does he or she offer anything testable by that reality. Instead the poet speaks of commonplaces in heightened language in order to reflect the commonplace understanding of his or her contemporary reality in the language of his or her time and place, and thereby reinforces the understanding- in-common of the culture-in-common and also thereby asserts the primacy of his or her poems' representation of that understanding and that culture. mbales at oh.verio.net From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Mon Mar 25 10:55:14 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 10:55:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3C9EFA65.16097.98DBE3@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325091804.00aa64c0@postoffice.brown.edu> <3C9E239E.26417.1C88C3ED@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325104305.00aa79e0@postoffice.brown.edu> So Marcus, poetry according too you is distinguished by the aura or mana of significance which the poet imparts to the reader by a special manner of presentation? And for you this is the distinctive mark of poetry? Equating the process with advertising only highlights the fact that what you have defined is, as you said, rhetoric. I don't think you've gotten to poetry yet. I thought the McManus poem was, as you said originally, prose chopped into lines. Call it a lineated prose poem if you like. I don't think world-shaking significance hinges on the outcome of arguments over sharp divisions at the border of what can't be divided sharply anyway. Your characterization of fact-based science, on the one hand, and the "codifying of commonplaces" which is supposedly what poets do, on the other, is a pigeonholing which short-changes both activities. How does that Wallace Stevens line go? "Reality is a pursuit of the most august imagination" or something like that (sorry, don't have it handy). I would say that poets and scientists provide very different kinds of proofs for what is, at a very deep level, similar kinds of evidence or traces of reality. Henry From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Mon Mar 25 11:05:30 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:05:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325104305.00aa79e0@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <3C9EFA65.16097.98DBE3@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020325091804.00aa64c0@postoffice.brown.edu> <3C9E239E.26417.1C88C3ED@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325110410.00ab6b10@postoffice.brown.edu> Sorry! That should have been ". . . for what ARE. . . similar kinds of evidence" - Henry I writ: "I would say that poets and scientists provide very different kinds of proofs for what is, at a very deep level, similar kinds of evidence or traces of reality." From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Mar 25 12:43:52 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:43:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: W. C. Williams, "For a Low Voice" Message-ID: For a Low Voice If you ignore the possibilities of art, huh, huh, huh, huh, huh, &c. you are likely to become involved, huh! in extreme, huh, huh, huh, huh, huh &c. difficulties. For instance, when they started to make a park at the site of the old Dutch, huh, huh, huh! cemetery, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, &c. they could not, digging down upon the hoary, heh, heh! graves, find so much as a thighbone, huh, huh, huh! or in fact anything! wha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, &c. to remove! This, according to the requirements of the case, created a huh, huh, huh, huh shall we say, dilemma? So that, to make a gesture, for old time's sake, heh, heh! of filling the one vault retained as communal repository huh, huh! and monument, they had to throw in SOMETHING! presumed to be bones but observed by those nearest, heh, heh, heh! more to resemble rotten tree roots than *ossa!* a low sort of dissembling, ha, ha, ha, &c. on the part of the officials were it not excusable, oh, ho, ho, ho, ho, &c. under the head of . . . Yes, yes, of course! wha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! Whoh, ho, hee, hee! Rather a triumph of a sort! Whoop la! Whee hee!--don't you think? --William Carlos Williams Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jpl3 at lehigh.edu Mon Mar 25 12:54:00 2002 From: jpl3 at lehigh.edu (Joe Lucia) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 12:54:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325091804.00aa64c0@postoffice.brown.edu> <3C9E239E.26417.1C88C3ED@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020325104305.00aa79e0@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3C9F6438.C2A8C7AC@lehigh.edu> I've resisted jumping into this fray for over a week, but the latest series of messages from Marcus, Henry and others tipped the balance. The account of science versus poetry espoused by Marcus (and to which Henry responded nicely below) underplays the place of trope and figuration in the formulation and expression of scientific ideas. Science and poetry are each partly rhetorical, and though they serve different ends they are each also directed, I think, toward "a knew knowledge of reality." The knowledge a poem holds is in its figures, slippages, associations, all that it hints at, gestures toward, suggests. Poetry works, I think, to excavate unconscious knowledge, to "figure it out" without eschewing some of its empowering blindness, as it were. Science, on the other hand, strives to render all of its apprehensions fully conscious and in that degree it suppresses the figural (though it can never get completely free of it). To suggest, in any case, that poetry is just a linguistic filigree on top of commonplace knowledge seems to me a severe impoverishment of the poetic imagination, making poems themselves little more than (rhetorically elaborate) verbal charades. Henry Gould wrote: > Your characterization of fact-based science, on the one hand, and the > "codifying of commonplaces" which is supposedly what poets do, on the > other, is a pigeonholing which short-changes both activities. How does > that Wallace Stevens line go? "Reality is a pursuit of the most august > imagination" or something like that (sorry, don't have it handy). I would > say that poets and scientists provide very different kinds of proofs for > what is, at a very deep level, similar kinds of evidence or traces of reality. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpl3.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 349 bytes Desc: Card for Joe Lucia URL: From jpl3 at lehigh.edu Mon Mar 25 13:46:07 2002 From: jpl3 at lehigh.edu (Joe Lucia) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 13:46:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325091804.00aa64c0@postoffice.brown.edu> <3C9E239E.26417.1C88C3ED@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020325104305.00aa79e0@postoffice.brown.edu> <3C9F6438.C2A8C7AC@lehigh.edu> Message-ID: <3C9F706F.8E8D0164@lehigh.edu> Can't believe I wrote "a knew knowledge of reality" in my last post. Wonder what that would be. "A new knowledge..." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpl3.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 349 bytes Desc: Card for Joe Lucia URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Mon Mar 25 14:21:12 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:21:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: W. C. Williams, "For a Low Voice" References: Message-ID: <3C9F78A8.BDF30559@earthlink.net> Is that one of those poems where he's carrying on his "war" with Stevens? Halvard Johnson wrote: > For a Low Voice > > If you ignore the possibilities of art, > huh, huh, huh, huh, huh, &c. > you are likely to become involved, > huh! in extreme, huh, huh, huh, huh, huh > > &c. difficulties. For instance, when > they started to make a park > at the site of the old Dutch, huh, huh, huh! > cemetery, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, &c. > > they could not, digging down > upon the hoary, heh, heh! graves, > find so much as a thighbone, huh, huh, huh! > or in fact anything! wha, ha, > > ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, &c. > to remove! This, > according to the requirements of the case, > created a huh, huh, huh, huh > > shall we say, dilemma? So that, > to make a gesture, for old time's sake, > heh, heh! of filling > the one vault retained as communal repository > > huh, huh! and monument, they > had to throw in SOMETHING! presumed > to be bones but observed by those nearest, > heh, heh, heh! more to resemble > > rotten tree roots than *ossa!* > a low sort of dissembling, ha, ha, ha, &c. > on the part of the officials > were it not excusable, oh, ho, ho, ho, ho, &c. > > under the head of . . . Yes, yes, of course! > wha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! Whoh, ho, > hee, hee! Rather a triumph of > a sort! Whoop la! Whee hee!--don't you think? > > --William Carlos Williams > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Mar 25 14:46:25 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:46:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: W. C. Williams, "For a Low Voice" In-Reply-To: <3C9F78A8.BDF30559@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I've no idea, Chris. It's from a volume called *The Clouds* (1948), so Stevens would still have been around to wage war on, if that's any help. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { Is that one of those poems where he's { carrying on his "war" with Stevens? { { { { Halvard Johnson wrote: { { > For a Low Voice { > { > If you ignore the possibilities of art, { > huh, huh, huh, huh, huh, &c. { > you are likely to become involved, { > huh! in extreme, huh, huh, huh, huh, huh { > { > &c. difficulties. For instance, when { > they started to make a park { > at the site of the old Dutch, huh, huh, huh! { > cemetery, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, &c. { > { > they could not, digging down { > upon the hoary, heh, heh! graves, { > find so much as a thighbone, huh, huh, huh! { > or in fact anything! wha, ha, { > { > ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, &c. { > to remove! This, { > according to the requirements of the case, { > created a huh, huh, huh, huh { > { > shall we say, dilemma? So that, { > to make a gesture, for old time's sake, { > heh, heh! of filling { > the one vault retained as communal repository { > { > huh, huh! and monument, they { > had to throw in SOMETHING! presumed { > to be bones but observed by those nearest, { > heh, heh, heh! more to resemble { > { > rotten tree roots than *ossa!* { > a low sort of dissembling, ha, ha, ha, &c. { > on the part of the officials { > were it not excusable, oh, ho, ho, ho, ho, &c. { > { > under the head of . . . Yes, yes, of course! { > wha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! Whoh, ho, { > hee, hee! Rather a triumph of { > a sort! Whoop la! Whee hee!--don't you think? { > { > --William Carlos Williams { > { > Hal { > { > Halvard Johnson { > =============== { > email: halvard at earthlink.net { > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { > { > _______________________________________________ { > New-Poetry mailing list { > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Mon Mar 25 15:12:16 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 15:12:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: W. C. Williams, "For a Low Voice" In-Reply-To: References: <3C9F78A8.BDF30559@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020325150804.00ab1a80@postoffice.brown.edu> It's clearly making fun of Stevens' made-up sounds ("Arabian hoobla-hoo" etc), with reference to his poem "Dutch Graves in Bucks County" etc. "How does one answer the mockers, the mickey-mockers. . ." (or however it goes) Henry >{ >{ > For a Low Voice >{ > >{ > If you ignore the possibilities of art, >{ > huh, huh, huh, huh, huh, &c. >{ > you are likely to become involved, >{ > huh! in extreme, huh, huh, huh, huh, huh >{ > >{ > &c. difficulties. For instance, when >{ > they started to make a park >{ > at the site of the old Dutch, huh, huh, huh! >{ > cemetery, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, &c. >{ > >{ > they could not, digging down >{ > upon the hoary, heh, heh! graves, >{ > find so much as a thighbone, huh, huh, huh! >{ > or in fact anything! wha, ha, >{ > >{ > ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, &c. >{ > to remove! This, >{ > according to the requirements of the case, >{ > created a huh, huh, huh, huh >{ > >{ > shall we say, dilemma? So that, >{ > to make a gesture, for old time's sake, >{ > heh, heh! of filling >{ > the one vault retained as communal repository >{ > >{ > huh, huh! and monument, they >{ > had to throw in SOMETHING! presumed >{ > to be bones but observed by those nearest, >{ > heh, heh, heh! more to resemble >{ > >{ > rotten tree roots than *ossa!* >{ > a low sort of dissembling, ha, ha, ha, &c. >{ > on the part of the officials >{ > were it not excusable, oh, ho, ho, ho, ho, &c. >{ > >{ > under the head of . . . Yes, yes, of course! >{ > wha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! Whoh, ho, >{ > hee, hee! Rather a triumph of >{ > a sort! Whoop la! Whee hee!--don't you think? >{ > >{ > --William Carlos Williams From MillB at aol.com Mon Mar 25 17:07:30 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:07:30 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Critics Bag Message-ID: Greetings: On the sort of same subject. . .what critics are in your book bag? What critics do you read and love or love to hate these days? Mill From mbales at cybergate.net Mon Mar 25 19:26:23 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:26:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3C9F6438.C2A8C7AC@lehigh.edu> Message-ID: <3C9F79DF.8778.21C1E5F6@localhost> > The account of science versus poetry espoused by Marcus ... > underplays the place of trope and > figuration in the formulation and expression of scientific ideas.<< The formulation and expression of scientific ideas by trope and figuration are, by and large, popularizations and illustrations for students by which they are led to the real ideas; and the purpose of the use of trope and figuration is explicitly to either substitute for (in the case of popularization) or lead to (in the case of pedagogy) the real ideas. In poetry, though, the expression of ideas by trope and figuration is all we've got -- there is no deeper to go. There are no "real ideas" in the same sense I've used that phrase above, for what poets do is exactly to filigree contemporary commonplaces. In some cases the poets do it exceedingly well, and their expressions of their contemporary commonplaces become the way that others speak of those commonplaces. That's the highest good of poetry when you come right down to it: to get one's own particular manner of speaking to be adopted as the best manner of expression for one's own contemporary commonplaces. > Science and poetry are each partly rhetorical, and though they serve > different ends they are each also directed, I think, toward "a knew (sic) > knowledge of reality."<< Some popularizations and textbooks in science are partly rhetorical because they address an audience of non-scientists. But the basic languages of science are mathematics and symbolic logic. The goal of science is to make testable hypotheses and then to test them, and then use the results to verify or falsify the hypothesis -- and not to make it sound good. Poetry, on the other hand, has expressly as its goal to make the matter sound good, irrespective of whether it is good or not. > The knowledge a poem holds is in its figures, > slippages, associations, all that it hints at, gestures toward, > suggests. << This is the weakest sort of reasoning, reasoning by analogy. All analogies fail; they are only useful to the extent that they "gesture toward" or "suggest" something. The best you can hope for in poetry is that it plays a heuristic role in firing up the scientist in some way -- that the significantly excellent expression of a contemporary commonplace in a poem will reach the ears of someone who can, and who does, more than merely "gesture toward" something real. > Poetry works, I think, to excavate unconscious knowledge, to > "figure it out" without eschewing some of its empowering blindness, as > it were.<< Oh, piffle. You were better off with the gesturing toward. > ... To suggest, in > any case, that poetry is just a linguistic filigree on top of > commonplace knowledge seems to me a severe impoverishment of the poetic > imagination, making poems themselves little more than (rhetorically > elaborate) verbal charades.<< But that's all they are. As I asserted earlier, poetry is little more than numerology with words -- and the little more it is is embodied pretty well, I think, in your notion of "gesturing toward". Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Mar 25 20:21:50 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:21:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Critics Bag References: Message-ID: <009101c1d464$dad69a80$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> The criticism/essays on poetry I'm reading right now is by poets...Donald Justice and Stephen Dobyns. Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 5:07 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Critics Bag > Greetings: > > On the sort of same subject. . .what critics are in your book bag? What > critics do you read and love or love to hate these days? > > Mill > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 25 21:42:20 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:42:20 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <3C9E239E.26417.1C88C3ED@localhost> <3C9EFA65.16097.98DBE3@localhost> Message-ID: <3C9FE00A.82472671@earthlink.net> > But to answer your question more directly, I hope, it seems to me > that the difference between poetry and prose inheres in the primacy > of the manner of presentation over the matter presented. There is > rarely, if ever, anything presented in the matter poetry presents us > that is not banal or trite in and of itself. What makes poetry > interesting, or powerful, or touching, or whatever, is the same thing > that makes advertising interesting or powerful or touching or > whatever: the manner of presentation. Marcus, This makes me curious. What kind of poetry do you write? Is there any you are willing to share with the list? Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 25 21:51:10 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:51:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <3C9EFA65.16097.98DBE3@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020325091804.00aa64c0@postoffice.brown.edu> <3C9E239E.26417.1C88C3ED@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020325110410.00ab6b10@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3C9FE21B.3EBD4A31@earthlink.net> Henry Gould wrote: > Sorry! That should have been ". . . for what ARE. . . similar kinds of > evidence" - Henry > > I writ: > "I would say that poets and scientists provide very different kinds of > proofs for what is, at a very deep level, similar kinds of evidence or > traces of reality." This reminds me of something Samuel Delaney quotes the young Marilyn Hacker as saying, when a reporter asked her "Why, in this age of science, do you want to be an artist?" "I don't really see that much difference between them....both are based on fine observation of the world." (Hacker and Delaney met at Bronx Science high school in New York and she was taking art classes at the time.) Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 25 22:03:58 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:03:58 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Critics Bag References: Message-ID: <3C9FE51A.F37EB717@earthlink.net> MillB at aol.com wrote: > Greetings: > > On the sort of same subject. . .what critics are in your book bag? What > critics do you read and love or love to hate these days? Jarrell, Jarrell, Jarrell....Jarrell is in a sense for me The critic, although what he does is so idiosyncratic and one-off it should probably never be taken as any kind of model. But it's dazzling nonetheless. I like Thomas Disch quite a bit ("The Castle of Indolence"). I think the Reaper essays are funny, mainly because the authors seem to realize that kind of slashing rhetoric is always on the danger of toppling over into ridiculousness (although sometimes they are mean-spirited). I tend to like collections of essays, especially those that have a number by authors with different viewpoints like David Graham's "After Confession" (plug, plug) more than long theoretical jargon-laced works. Finished rereading Susan van Dyne's book on the "Ariel" revisions -- I tend to like books which trace how exactly a work of art comes into being through all the different drafts and permutations. To that end some time ago I finished a book called "Middlemarch: From Notebook to Novel," an exhaustive -- and exhausting -- chronicle of exactly which pages of the novel were written on what pieces of paper, which was a bit daunting to slog through but really does give you some kind of picture of how the novel came together. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 25 22:06:06 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:06:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <3C9F79DF.8778.21C1E5F6@localhost> Message-ID: <3C9FE59A.E11C94E9@earthlink.net> Marcus Bales wrote: > In poetry, though, the expression of ideas by trope and figuration is > all we've got -- there is no deeper to go. There are no "real ideas" > in the same sense I've used that phrase above, for what poets do is > exactly to filigree contemporary commonplaces. There are no "real ideas" in something like "Sailing to Byzantium" or "The Waking" or "One Art"? Piffle yourself. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 25 22:16:07 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:16:07 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Other People's Poetry References: <3C9E239E.26417.1C88C3ED@localhost> <3C9EFA65.16097.98DBE3@localhost> <3C9FE00A.82472671@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3C9FE7EC.175AE7AC@earthlink.net> A friend sent me this poem right after September 11th, and I was thinking of it again recently on hearing that 16 more bodies were found over the weekend, and 4 more today. The Diameter of the Bomb Yehuda Amichai The diameter of the bomb was thirty centimeters and the diameter of its effective range about seven meters, with four dead and eleven wounded. And around these, in a larger circle of pain and time, two hospitals are scattered and one graveyard. But the young woman who was buried in the city she came from, at a distance of more than a hundred kilometers, enlarges the circle considerably, and the solitary man mourning her death at the distant shores of a country far across the sea includes the entire world in the circle. And I won?t even mention the crying of orphans that reaches up to the throne of God and beyond, making a circle with no end and no God. From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Mon Mar 25 22:20:31 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 20:20:31 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Other People's Poetry References: <3C9E239E.26417.1C88C3ED@localhost> <3C9EFA65.16097.98DBE3@localhost> <3C9FE00A.82472671@earthlink.net> <3C9FE7EC.175AE7AC@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3C9FE8F9.D8198D03@earthlink.net> Oh my, that looked dreadfully formatted when I received it. Let me try again. The diameter of the bomb was thirty centimeters and the diameter of its effective range about seven meters, with four dead and eleven wounded. And around these, in a larger circle of pain and time, two hospitals are scattered and one graveyard. But the young woman who was buried in the city she came from, at a distance of more than a hundred kilometers, enlarges the circle considerably, and the solitary man mourning her death at the distant shores of a country far across the sea includes the entire world in the circle. And I won?t even mention the crying of orphans that reaches up to the throne of God and beyond, making a circle with no end and no God. -- Yehuda Amichai From wjbat at conncoll.edu Tue Mar 26 03:08:23 2002 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:08:23 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3C9F6438.C2A8C7AC@lehigh.edu> Message-ID: <20020326000823.015554@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> What is this notion of poetry as "intellectual sport?" Gymnastics is a sport; dance is not. I've done both and love both, but the poetry I love most is art, not sport. (I think the walking:prose :: dancing: poetry trope is from Paul Valery. It's not hard for a trained dancer to dance the act of walking, and you won't mistake it for walking if you're paying attention. You will also mistake it for walking, if you're paying attention.) Wendy From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Mar 26 02:02:14 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 23:02:14 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hold On I'm Ycummin' References: <20020326000823.015554@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <3CA01CF5.513A85C6@earthlink.net> Thanks Wendy. It's also not hard for an untrained dancer to dance in the act of walking (nor for an untrained observer to perceive that-- and what is perceiving if not feeling? and what is dancing if not perceiving and being perceived?), and therefore walk in dancing..... (Perhaps Sam & Dave, remember them, would call it "the lord's dance"--- doesn't sound as convincing without the "Stax/Volt idea of soul" frame) The problem is those half-trained, those times when we're among them (AS THEM even), trained in distinguishing walking from dancing as if that may separate practical from fun, health from happiness, or at least preachers from entertainers (and thus something as small as heaven vs. hell, unless of course put in "life-size" feeling perspective as "mood swings," the division of duty and desire, perjured lust, the moral code of alienated labor (the moral code whose LOGICAL conclusion is pedaphilic priests? sorry about the digression; my dance trainer warned me about that, but then others egged me on, ho hum--just had to scratch an itch) Welcome to Ye Olde "undo the false dichotomy" Defense of Poetry Tavern' Thanks for inviting me, apocalypse now-- not that you're needed to shake out repression, mind you--- Dancing can walk the walk and mean it, but sometimes the song the DJ's playing makes me want to unpay the piper, rip off the headphones, and scream (visionary vomit if you must) And even if I too prefer art to sport, Maybe I see art as the letting go part more than you, gymnastics as the steps and dance the water-slide, until, that is, poetry becomes the peas you must eat if you don't want to go to bed without your dessert (of journal-writing, perhaps, whatever gets you through the night). So values may change "we're helpless they must but we like it that way, eliminates trust" So I cannot so easily systematize the defintions, but I see crawling as more like dancing than walking and thus may see most dancing as a parody of the dancing beaten out of us "razed Catholic" and there's something transgressively erotic at seeing dancing or even fucking as a team sport even if only for a second of blinking foreplay and maybe that's why "Learning To Crawl" was a Great Pretender or at least why I like listening to certain bands tune as much as seeing them play (even if I'm only in them as the audience is, which can be quite intimate actually).... Chris Wendy Battin wrote: > What is this notion of poetry as "intellectual sport?" Gymnastics is a > sport; dance is not. I've done both and love both, but the poetry I love > most is art, not sport. (I think the walking:prose :: dancing: poetry > trope is from Paul Valery. It's not hard for a trained dancer to dance > the act of walking, and you won't mistake it for walking if you're paying > attention. You will also mistake it for walking, if you're paying attention.) > > Wendy > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Mar 26 05:24:22 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 05:24:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3C9FE59A.E11C94E9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3CA00606.27707.23E57191@localhost> Marcus: > > In poetry, though, the expression of ideas by trope and figuration is > > all we've got -- there is no deeper to go. There are no "real ideas" > > in the same sense I've used that phrase above, for what poets do is > > exactly to filigree contemporary commonplaces. Moira: > There are no "real ideas" in something like "Sailing to Byzantium" or "The > Waking" or "One Art"? Piffle yourself. Not unless you think that "It's tough to realize you're getting old" or "Life is pretty random, isn't it" or "Things change and we still go on" are "real ideas" in the way that the second law of thermodynamics (which states that entropy increases over time as organized forms decay into randomness) is a "real idea" -- and maybe you do, and maybe you're right to do so. I don't happen to think so. The process and result of observing the world and coming up with the second law of thermodynamics is, it seems to me, entirely different from the process of observing the world and coming up with "The art of losing isn't hard to master" or "I learn by going where I have to go" or "An aged man is but a paltry thing". Splendid as these poems are, and I don't disagree that they are splendid, their virtues are in their manners of presenting commonplaces. This is not top say that commonplaces cannot be "real ideas" -- it is, rather, to say that the process of reformulating commonplaces doesn't offer the world the sort of definitiveness about real ideas that, for example, the second law of thermodynamics offers. It seems as if you may be willing to say either (A) that Yeats or Roethke or Bishop were the first poets to come up with the notions that death comes to us all or that life's a learning process or that love hurts or (B) that they have given us in these poems' actual words so definitive a take on those ideas that no poet ought to bother writing poems on those themes any more -- are you trying to say either of those, or something else? Are you saying that these poets' formulations and presentations of these ideas are as usefully fundamental to poetry as the second law of thermodynamics is to science -- so usefully fundamental that all subsequent poets acknowledge the primacy of these poems and decline to try to reformulate these ideas in a different way -- or something else? Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Mar 26 07:03:32 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:03:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3C9FE21B.3EBD4A31@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3CA01D44.16653.244040A0@localhost> Henry Gould: > > "I would say that poets and scientists provide very different > > kinds of proofs for what are at a very deep level, similar kinds of > > evidence or traces of reality." Well, they're very different, all right -- though how a poem could be said to be a "proof" in anything but the most poetically metaphorical (and non-proof) sense I don't see. This so undermines the notion of "proof" as to make it useless. Wendy Battin: > This reminds me of something Samuel Delaney quotes the > young Marilyn Hacker as saying, when a reporter asked her > "Why, in this age of science, do you want to be an artist?" > "I don't really see that much difference between them....both > are based on fine observation of the world."<< That's very much the same as saying there's not that much difference between love and hate because both are based on a strong emotion felt about an individual. It's not enough to make such broad statements, because they include too much, and they don't distinguish adequately, if at all, among things that are very different. Those sorts of over-broad notions are hasty generalizations that elide more than they reveal, and thus offer specious conclusions. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Mar 26 07:07:24 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:07:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <20020326000823.015554@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> References: <3C9F6438.C2A8C7AC@lehigh.edu> Message-ID: <3CA01E2C.12045.2443CA3C@localhost> Wendy Battin: > What is this notion of poetry as "intellectual sport?" Gymnastics is a > sport; dance is not. I've done both and love both, but the poetry I love > most is art, not sport. << What's the difference, then, between art and sport? Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Mar 26 07:12:44 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:12:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Inadvertent mis-attribution In-Reply-To: <3C9FE21B.3EBD4A31@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3CA01F6C.11216.2448AAE8@localhost> I'm sorry, but I inadvertently mis-attributed this: > This reminds me of something Samuel Delaney quotes the young Marilyn > Hacker as saying, when a reporter asked her "Why, in this age of science, > do you want to be an artist?" "I don't really see that much difference > between them....both are based on fine observation of the world." to Wendy Battin in a previous post. It was actually written by Moira Russell. My apologies for my mistake. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Mar 26 07:38:14 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 07:38:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3C9FE00A.82472671@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3CA02566.29032.246004D7@localhost> > Moira Russell > ... What kind of poetry do you write? Is there any you are > willing to share with the list? Thanks for asking. Here's my most recent effort: Precipice Intent on someone else's words, your lips Not quite a smile that hints at quips the sass Of one raised eyebrow shows, your fingertips Arranged around a long-bulbed shape of glass, You glance at me with richly chocolate eyes, Between a tilt of head and brush of hand To flip a strand of hair, and improvise A flickered wink that strips me where I stand. You leave me quivering, trying not to stare, Remembering you unconfined by those Expensive clothes, while shivering to compose My face, and knowing everybody knows I'm dancing at the cliff edge, unaware Of where the precipice gives way to air. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Mar 26 08:16:10 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:16:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3CA01D44.16653.244040A0@localhost> References: <3C9FE21B.3EBD4A31@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020326075144.00aa8e30@postoffice.brown.edu> At 07:03 AM 3/26/02 -0500, Marcus wrote: >Henry Gould: > > > "I would say that poets and scientists provide very different > > > kinds of proofs for what are at a very deep level, similar kinds of > > > evidence or traces of reality." > >Well, they're very different, all right -- though how a poem could be >said to be a "proof" in anything but the most poetically >metaphorical (and non-proof) sense I don't see. This so >undermines the notion of "proof" as to make it useless. You've got a unique approach, Marcus. Akin perhaps to poets of the 18th century, when Reason reduced most things to commonplaces. Or Auden, sometimes (who also scoffed at poets with ideas). But I thought the 20th century threw something of a wrench into their cozy explanations of the universe and society. And I think that theoretical science and poetry do indeed share some cognitive processes - the same leaps of imaginative bridging which bring correlations and elegant harmonies out of chaos - which provide, as I said, very different kinds of proofs (but each of them heuristic in their own way) of a common ground of order (be it ever so mysterious and unaccountable, a fearful symmetry). You might want to read Mandelstam's "Conversation About Dante", where he explores Dante's practice of testing religious dogma against the empirical data of experience and history. You vaunt the 2nd law of thermodynamics for its basis in fact, but what does physics have to say about mercy, pity, justice, love, humanity, God, fate, destiny, freedom? The 2nd law was drawn out by human thought, from minds wherein the causes and effects of these less-easily measured elements apply as well. The truth is that science can be brought in as a witness to reality, but only by a poet. To debunk poems as gatherings of cliches is to confuse the empty cicada shell with the living cicada. Henry ******************************************************** HG afloat: www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Mar 26 08:39:47 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:39:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020326075144.00aa8e30@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <3CA01D44.16653.244040A0@localhost> Message-ID: <3CA033D3.24937.2498606F@localhost> Henry Gould: > You vaunt the 2nd law of thermodynamics for its basis in fact, > but what > does physics have to say about mercy, pity, justice, love, humanity, God, > fate, destiny, freedom? << That they are non-existent apart from being human constructs, with perhaps the exception of "fate" which may be just another way to talk about the 2nd law of thermodynamics -- but probably not in the apparent context of the other notions in which you present it. Sorry I don't have time to answer the rest of your post just now; I have to go install a client's shower door. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Mar 26 08:51:54 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:51:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3CA033D3.24937.2498606F@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020326075144.00aa8e30@postoffice.brown.edu> <3CA01D44.16653.244040A0@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020326084728.00aaa980@postoffice.brown.edu> >Marcus Bales: >"That they are non-existent apart from being human constructs, with >perhaps the exception of "fate" which may be just another way to >talk about the 2nd law of thermodynamics -- but probably not in the >apparent context of the other notions in which you present it." The 2nd Law is no less a human construct. Charles Peirce, among others, would argue that they (love, justice, God, and so on) are at least as "existent" as the formal laws of science. I don't think all scientists would agree with you on the reduction of universals to non-existence apart from human formulation. Henry From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Mar 26 10:58:53 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:58:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Wallace Stevens, "Owl's Clover" Message-ID: Not the entire poem, but the first two sections from V. "Sombre Figuration" I There is a man whom rhapsodies of change, Of which he is the cause, have never changed And never will, a subman under all The rest, to whom in the end the rest return, The man below the man below the man, Steeped in night's opium, evading day. II We have grown weary of the man that thinks. He thinks and it is not true. The man below Imagines and it is true, as if he thought By imagining, anti-logician, quick With a logic of transforming certitudes. It is not that he was born in another land, Powered with primitive lights, and lives with us In glimpses, on the edge or at the tip. He was born within us as a second self, A self of parents who have never died, Whose lives return, simply, upon our lips, Their word and ours; in what we see, their hues Without a season, unstinted in livery, And ours, of rigid measure, a miser's paint; And most in what we hear, sound brushed away, A mumbling at the elbow, turgid tunes, As of insects of cloud-stricken birds, away And away, dialogues between incognitos. He dwells below, the man below, in less Than body and in less than mind, ogre, Inhabitant, in less than shape, of shapes That are dissembled in vague memory Yet still retain resemblances, remain Remembrances, a place of a field of lights, As a church is a bell and people are an eye, A cry, the pallor of a dress, a touch. He turns us into scholars, studying The masks of music. We perceive each mask To be the musician's own and, thence, become An audience to mimics glistening With meanings, doubled by the closest sounds, Mimics that play on instruments discerned In the beat of the blood. Green is the path we take Between chimeras and garlanded the way, The down-descent into November's void. The spontaneities of rain or snow Surprise the sterile rationalist who sees Maidens in bloom, bulls under sea, the lark On urns and oak-leaves twisted into rhyme. The man, but not the man below, for whom The pheasant in a field was pheasant, field, Until they changed to eagle in white air, Lives in a fluid, not on solid rock. The solid was an age, a period With appropriate, largely English, furniture, Barbers with charts of the only possible modes, Cities that would not wash away in the mist, Each man in his asylum maundering, Policed by the hope of Christmas. Summer night, Night gold, and winter night, night silver, these Were the fluid, the cat-eyed atmosphere, in which The man and the man below were reconciled, The east wind in the west, order destroyed, The cycle of the solid having turned. --Wallace Stevens Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From daisyf1 at juno.com Tue Mar 26 11:08:37 2002 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:08:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] toot toot Message-ID: <20020326.110838.-294259.6.daisyf1@juno.com> If any of you are in southeastern PA and are in the mood... Daisy Fried reads new poems and poems from _She Didn't Mean to Do It_ (Pitt, 2000) Riverside Reading Series Williams Visual Arts Building Lafayette College 243 N. 3rd St. Easton*, PA April 5 at 8 p.m. Directions: http://www.riversidepoetry.org/calendar/index.html#Directions and www.lafayette.edu/community/directions.html *Easton is also the home of the Weyerbacher brewery, which makes extremely fine microbrew, which can be sampled at their downtown brewpub, and is, I believe, also Crayola's hometown. From wjbat at conncoll.edu Tue Mar 26 14:23:08 2002 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:23:08 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3CA01E2C.12045.2443CA3C@localhost> Message-ID: <20020326112308.003091@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Marcus Bales wrote: >What's the difference, then, between art and sport? Too large a question. The distinction I had in mind, though, is that virtuosity is an end in itself for the gymnast. Virtuosity is necessary but not sufficient for the dancer; it can even be a fault if it gets in the way of the dance. Wendy >Wendy Battin: >> What is this notion of poetry as "intellectual sport?" Gymnastics is a >> sport; dance is not. I've done both and love both, but the poetry I love >> most is art, not sport. << > From wjbat at conncoll.edu Tue Mar 26 16:31:49 2002 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:31:49 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hold On I'm Ycummin' In-Reply-To: <3CA01CF5.513A85C6@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20020326133149.023587@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino wrote: >And even if I too prefer art to sport, >Maybe I see art as the letting go part more than you, >gymnastics as the steps and dance the water-slide, I'm just a prisoner of my temperament, Chris. (and can hear the chorus behind me cackling 'and mistress of understatement.') Wendy From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Mar 26 14:57:12 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 11:57:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Master-Mistress" References: <20020326133149.023587@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <3CA0D298.54A66C80@earthlink.net> Yep, me too... Chris Wendy Battin wrote: > Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino wrote: > > >And even if I too prefer art to sport, > >Maybe I see art as the letting go part more than you, > >gymnastics as the steps and dance the water-slide, > > I'm just a prisoner of my temperament, Chris. > (and can hear the chorus behind me cackling > 'and mistress of understatement.') > > Wendy > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Tue Mar 26 16:07:41 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:07:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game Message-ID: In a message dated 3/26/02 5:18:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbales at cybergate.net writes: > Not unless you think that "It's tough to realize you're getting old" or " > Life is > pretty random, isn't it" or "Things change and we still go on" are "real > ideas" in the way that the second law of thermodynamics (which states > that entropy increases over time as organized forms decay into > randomness) is a "real idea" -- and maybe you do, and maybe you're right > to do so. I don't happen to think so. > Not to gang up on you, Marcus, but I'm wondering about the accuracy of calling a law (subject to mathematical proof and experimental verification) an "idea" (whether real or unreal). It seems to me an idea is more akin to scientific "theory." What many poets are grappling with or embellishing or attacking from new directions (one hopes) are commonplaces only in the sense that these ideas are as old as human thought (philosophical, theological, social and archetypal themes). These may be human constructs but I don't see them as of lesser value than scientific theories or laws of nature. This discussion started with 'prose' as it's used to make a 'poem,' and the question of how that is possible. First, as others have noted, prose isn't one thing. Prose stylists are as varied and idiosyncratic as the stylists of the poetic line; and the prose itself runs the gamut from something straightforward and flat to most involuted and purple, with innumerable identifiable variations in between, or even within the same text. I think we have to look at the poem and say this is "bad prose," and then explain why. The derogatory use of the word "prose" when criticizing a poem, without some description of the prose itself, is to be blind to what prose is capable of when used in the context of what a poem is. Which brings us back to that question: Is it a poem if I say it's poem? No, is probably the right answer. But it is a poem if you and enough readers say it is. (How many is enough?..well, it doesn't take too many in the relatively small world of poetry audiences.) So it's actually the poem's responsibility (with the poet's help, and the help of audience building entities, publishers and venue hosts) to define itself by claiming a readership. What means the poem employs (in prose or metered verse, with imagery or by ravishing rhetoric, thru subject matter or nonsense) to this end are wide open...but probably not so wide open as to be a coffee mug. (Tho, that example made me think of how R. Mutt's "Font" famously answered the question: What is Art?) I think we can safely say the text is most likely to succeed by employing those means that will differentiate it from other texts we broadly call fiction, non-fiction, journalism, etc. In a certain sense, the easiest way to do so is to write the poem in meter & rime. The poem, even if bad, by doing so presents itself readily as being in that category of writing we call poetry; once differentiated however, it must make use of other means (often less overt) in order to distinguish itself. re: Critic's Bag I'm reading Harold Bloom's "Breaking of the Vessels" right now. Of course as a literary critic, Bloom has reason to valorize criticism, and in an essay called Ratios he makes the case that language of literary criticism (at its best) is not very different from poetry: "Though I insist that the language of poetry and the language of criticism cannot differ, in more than degree, I doubt that we can speak of more than the language of individual poets and of individual critics. Strong criticism, like strong poetry, usurps, and this usurpation always begins with appropriation of what is then available in the language. Emerson knew this, what did he not know?" Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Tue Mar 26 16:10:02 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:10:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] a new MY LIFE by Lyn Hejinian Message-ID: <98.23685b32.29d23daa@aol.com> Date: 3/26/02 3:47:26 PM Eastern Standard Time From: djmess at greeninteger.com (Douglas Messerli) To: djmess at greeninteger.com (Douglas Messerli) MY LIFE by Lyn Hejinian Green Integer is pleased to announce that the new edition of Lyn Hejinian's My Life is now available. The book has been reset and some few corrections made from the first Sun & Moon printing of 1987. If you would like copies of this book please send checks made out to Douglas Messerli (do not write checks to Green Integer) for $10.95 pluse $1.25 for postage and handling. Send to Green Integer, 6026 Wilshire Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90036. For classroom use, please have bookstores order from our distributor: Consortium Book Sales and Distribution 1045 Westgate Drive Saint Paul, MN 55114-1065 800-283-3572 From jpl3 at lehigh.edu Tue Mar 26 16:30:34 2002 From: jpl3 at lehigh.edu (Joe Lucia) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:30:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <3C9F79DF.8778.21C1E5F6@localhost> Message-ID: <3CA0E87A.F610477A@lehigh.edu> Marcus Bales wrote: > > the basic languages of science are mathematics and symbolic > logic. The goal of science is to make testable hypotheses and > then to test them, and then use the results to verify or falsify the > hypothesis -- and not to make it sound good. This isn't the forum in which to discuss philosophy of science, so I will only say that there are multiple and conflicting accounts of how science actually works, some of them (notably Feyerabend's and Kuhn's) that complicate significantly the positivist method described above. While controversial, Feyerabend's account of science as a kind of mythological truth brings the registers of science and poetry nearer to each other, and not simply on the basis of what I called trope and figuration in my earlier post. I think it's possible to see the world differently (as in discovering new knowledge) through poetry to the same degree that it's possible to see the world differently through particle physics. Neither poetry nor science in themselves change what's "out there," and they do proceed in different directions-- science toward mathematical or other formalizations of theoretical claims (though these often have mytho-genic foundations such as Big Bang cosmology or unlocking the genetic code), poetry toward the verbal enactment of "theory" as a form of seeing that is not exclusively bound to rational categories. I don't feel that the content of poetry is reducible to logical constructs (or a set of simple declarations) that have been made to sound good. In that regard I suspect that we differ in our personal imaginings of what poetry is (or can be) and what poems do. And I don't think it's just a case of a complete argument leading us toward converging conclusions. Paradigms, baby. Ugh, he also said. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpl3.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 349 bytes Desc: Card for Joe Lucia URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Tue Mar 26 16:47:32 2002 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:47:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game Theory References: <3C9FE21B.3EBD4A31@earthlink.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20020326075144.00aa8e30@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3CA0EC74.BA31AA23@ix.netcom.com> Actually, if you don't restrict yourself to physics, the sciences have "something to say" about all of the above. The cognitive sciences which Henry mentions are, according to its proponents, identifying all of the above as objects of their experimental paradigm. Off the top of my head (which according to the cognitions houses the above 'objects') others could be charted below thusly. Mercy- Game Theory Pity- Strong A.I. and the mimicking of human consciousness Justice- Game Theory e.g. Prisoner's Dilemma Love- bio-chemistry, neuro-sciences, Strong A.I., robotics Humanity- genetics, robotics, Strong A.I., computer imaging, co-evolution God- physics/cosmology; big bang, expanding universe (see Physics of Mortality by that whack job, Frank Tipler) fate and destiny- same as above, computer modelling e.g. Game of Life, stochastics (pan-disciplinary) freedom- probability, non-linearity in all its stripes, probability, stochastics, co-evolution * This list doesn't pretend to be exhaustive and there is a lot of overlap. Also, the initial categories were not this correspondents. Of course, science's current understanding of 'living systems' in many disciplines runs counter 'the second law' see, Prigogine, Verela(sic?). Actually, the most 'successful' part of the Enlightenment project has been the substitution of epistemologies (e.g. theories of knowledge) of the organic with an epistemology of mathematical simulacra even as regards the sciences of 'living systems.' "Oh, make me something incorruptible! Make me something mathematical!" Pythagorean/Platonic? What do you think the chances of success are? What might be some of the consequences? Is this Idealism? Ideology? What's 'left out of the equation' if the equations notions of pity are put forth as the only efficacious paradigm? CP > At 07:03 AM 3/26/02 -0500, Marcus wrote: > >Henry Gould: > > > > "I would say that poets and scientists provide very different > > > > kinds of proofs for what are at a very deep level, similar kinds of > > > > evidence or traces of reality." > > > >Well, they're very different, all right -- though how a poem could be > >said to be a "proof" in anything but the most poetically > >metaphorical (and non-proof) sense I don't see. This so > >undermines the notion of "proof" as to make it useless. > > You've got a unique approach, Marcus. Akin perhaps to poets of the 18th > century, when Reason reduced most things to commonplaces. Or Auden, > sometimes (who also scoffed at poets with ideas). But I thought the 20th > century threw something of a wrench into their cozy explanations of the > universe and society. And I think that theoretical science and poetry do > indeed share some cognitive processes - the same leaps of imaginative > bridging which bring correlations and elegant harmonies out of chaos - > which provide, as I said, very different kinds of proofs (but each of them > heuristic in their own way) of a common ground of order (be it ever so > mysterious and unaccountable, a fearful symmetry). You might want to read > Mandelstam's "Conversation About Dante", where he explores Dante's practice > of testing religious dogma against the empirical data of experience and > history. > > You vaunt the 2nd law of thermodynamics for its basis in fact, but what > does physics have to say about mercy, pity, justice, love, humanity, God, > fate, destiny, freedom? The 2nd law was drawn out by human thought, from > minds wherein the causes and effects of these less-easily measured elements > apply as well. The truth is that science can be brought in as a witness to > reality, but only by a poet. To debunk poems as gatherings of cliches is > to confuse the empty cicada shell with the living cicada. > > Henry > ******************************************************** > HG afloat: www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html > www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark > "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Tue Mar 26 16:58:05 2002 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:58:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game Theory References: <3C9FE21B.3EBD4A31@earthlink.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20020326075144.00aa8e30@postoffice.brown.edu> <3CA0EC74.BA31AA23@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3CA0EEEC.7E8DAD68@ix.netcom.com> Correction: Physics Of IMMORTALITY. "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > > what > does physics have to say about mercy, pity, justice, love, humanity, God, > fate, destiny, freedom?> > > Actually, if you don't restrict yourself to physics, the sciences have > "something to say" about all of the above. The cognitive sciences which Henry > mentions are, according to its proponents, identifying all of the above as > objects of their experimental paradigm. Off the top of my head (which according > to the cognitions houses the above 'objects') others could be charted below > thusly. > > Mercy- Game Theory > > Pity- Strong A.I. and the mimicking of human consciousness > > Justice- Game Theory e.g. Prisoner's Dilemma > > Love- bio-chemistry, neuro-sciences, Strong A.I., robotics > > Humanity- genetics, robotics, Strong A.I., computer imaging, co-evolution > > God- physics/cosmology; big bang, expanding universe (see Physics of Mortality > by that whack job, Frank Tipler) > > fate and destiny- same as above, computer modelling e.g. Game of Life, > stochastics (pan-disciplinary) > > freedom- probability, non-linearity in all its stripes, probability, > stochastics, co-evolution > > * This list doesn't pretend to be exhaustive and there is a lot of overlap. > Also, the initial categories were not this correspondents. > > Of course, science's current understanding of 'living systems' in many > disciplines runs counter 'the second law' see, Prigogine, Verela(sic?). > Actually, the most 'successful' part of the Enlightenment project has been the > substitution of epistemologies (e.g. theories of knowledge) of the organic with > an epistemology of mathematical simulacra even as regards the sciences of > 'living systems.' > > "Oh, make me something incorruptible! Make me something mathematical!" > Pythagorean/Platonic? What do you think the chances of success are? What might > be some of the consequences? Is this Idealism? Ideology? What's 'left out of > the equation' if the equations notions of pity are put forth as the only > efficacious paradigm? > > CP > > > At 07:03 AM 3/26/02 -0500, Marcus wrote: > > >Henry Gould: > > > > > "I would say that poets and scientists provide very different > > > > > kinds of proofs for what are at a very deep level, similar kinds of > > > > > evidence or traces of reality." > > > > > >Well, they're very different, all right -- though how a poem could be > > >said to be a "proof" in anything but the most poetically > > >metaphorical (and non-proof) sense I don't see. This so > > >undermines the notion of "proof" as to make it useless. > > > > You've got a unique approach, Marcus. Akin perhaps to poets of the 18th > > century, when Reason reduced most things to commonplaces. Or Auden, > > sometimes (who also scoffed at poets with ideas). But I thought the 20th > > century threw something of a wrench into their cozy explanations of the > > universe and society. And I think that theoretical science and poetry do > > indeed share some cognitive processes - the same leaps of imaginative > > bridging which bring correlations and elegant harmonies out of chaos - > > which provide, as I said, very different kinds of proofs (but each of them > > heuristic in their own way) of a common ground of order (be it ever so > > mysterious and unaccountable, a fearful symmetry). You might want to read > > Mandelstam's "Conversation About Dante", where he explores Dante's practice > > of testing religious dogma against the empirical data of experience and > > history. > > > > You vaunt the 2nd law of thermodynamics for its basis in fact, but what > > does physics have to say about mercy, pity, justice, love, humanity, God, > > fate, destiny, freedom? The 2nd law was drawn out by human thought, from > > minds wherein the causes and effects of these less-easily measured elements > > apply as well. The truth is that science can be brought in as a witness to > > reality, but only by a poet. To debunk poems as gatherings of cliches is > > to confuse the empty cicada shell with the living cicada. > > > > Henry > > ******************************************************** > > HG afloat: www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html > > www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark > > "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Tue Mar 26 18:01:12 2002 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 17:01:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stand Up Poetry Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D79@mail.ripon.edu> (If you detest the work of Billy Collins and everything he stands for, you might want to delete this message right now. . . .) The term "stand up poetry" is brand new to me, though it's apparently been around for a little while. I just acquired an anthology of that title edited by Charles Harper Webb (U Iowa 2002)--which is apparently an expanded and updated version of an anthology from 1990. It was originally a book of poetry from southern California, but has now been expanded geographically. Stand Up Poetry as presented in this anthology seems to be, well, often sort of Billy Collinsy in nature, and Collins is of course included. Other poets featured include Webb himself, Denise Duhamel, Mark Halliday, Ron Koertge, Kim Addonizio, John Balaban, Wm. Trowbridge, James Tate, Dorianne Laux, Betsy Sholl, Russell Edson, Pattiann Rogers, Thomas Lux, Bob Hicok, Paul Hoover, Albert Goldbarth, Barbara Hamby, Amy Gerstler, Lucille Clifton, Edward Field, Wanda Coleman, and Maxine Chernoff. The term SUP pays homage to Edward Field's book *Stand Up, Friend, With Me*, Webb says. He offers the following traits as definitive of this genre (with due qualifiers--not all poets/poems display all traits, there's much variety to be found, etc.): humor, performability, clarity, natural language, flights of fancy, a strong individual voice, emotional punch, close relationship to fiction, use of urban and popular culture, wide open subject matter. As might be expected, SUP is largely a product of the boom in poetry readings--though not quite the same as slam or performance poetry. I'm not overly fond of the invention of new categories & terminology, but SUP strikes me as performing a useful service of naming a real phenomenon. I do wonder if many readers are actually using the term, or if it is mostly a figment of the editor's imagination and effort at niche marketing. In any case, in recent years I have noticed a profusion of poems that fit the bill, and I guess it may be handy to have a term for such work more snappy than "sort of Billy Collinsy in nature." I don't really have a point to make with this book report--just wanted to see if anyone else has opinions. I haven't read the book yet, though it seems from the table of contents that I already know a good deal of the work included. David Graham ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Mar 26 18:02:18 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:02:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs Message-ID: <20020326230218.62A7B2756@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Cadaly at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Lineated prose mad libs Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 14:53:29 EST Size: 5050 URL: From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Mar 26 22:25:09 2002 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:25:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020326084728.00aaa980@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <3CA033D3.24937.2498606F@localhost> Message-ID: <3CA0F545.20828.278C237D@localhost> > >Marcus Bales: > >"That they are non-existent apart from being human constructs, with > >perhaps the exception of "fate" which may be just another way to > >talk about the 2nd law of thermodynamics -- but probably not in the > >apparent context of the other notions in which you present it." Henry Gould: > The 2nd Law is no less a human construct.<< No, sir. Possibly you might be right in saying that the formulation of the 2nd law (or the name of it, since who are we to say that it's the 2nd one, really?) of thermodynmaics is a human construct, but we're not really speaking of that kind of thing, as I understand it. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is a human description of what we think we know of the way the whole megillah works. We could be wrong, of course, but most of us don't think so. Not so with notions such as justice, though. Justice is purely a human tale -- there is no justice where there are no humans. It's a human invention in a way that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is no invention at all. The 2nd law is based on observation of the way the world appears to us to really work. Justice is wishful thinking. > Charles Peirce, among others, > would argue that they (love, justice, God, and so on) are at least as > "existent" as the formal laws of science. << I'd be delighted to read the parts of C S Peirce's work that argue that love and justice and God are at least as existent as the formal laws of science. It strikes me that this is probably a carefully- worded bit of business on your part, and that Peirce's argument is that the *formulation* of the laws of science are no more real, or existent, or whatever than the *formulation* of the laws of a polity, or the *formulation* of the laws of poetry, or the *formulation* of the laws of love. If that's what you're asserting, we can agree on THAT - - but that's an entirely different notion than the one you were asserting earlier, that love and justice and the like *exist* in the same way the 2nd law of thermodynamics *exists*. Henry Gould: > I don't think all scientists > would agree with you on the reduction of universals to non-existence apart > from human formulation. If there were no humans there would be none of the human interactions we call "love" or "justice" and, thus, no existence of them at all, much less as "universals". They are simply not universal; they are merely human constructs contingent on the existence of humanity -- and even within that contingency, additionally contingent on enough humans caring about such notions to bother with them -- and often they do not. Ever hear of the Khmer Rouge? And there are historical horror stories enough through the ages to let us know that that sort of thing happens more often than not. We happen to be very lucky to be living in a time and place where enough people care about love and justice to converse about it. But the universe is not contingent on the existence of love or justice -- or any of those other notions you put forward as examples. The universe, so far as we can tell, is, however, contingent on the 2nd law of thermodynamics working as it does -- or there'd be no universe as we know it. Justice disappears for years, decades, centuries at a time over narrower or wider ranges of the human condition and humans survive. If the 2nd law of thermodynamics stopped working for a couple hours in the locality of humanity, humanity would in all likelihood cease to exist. We are talking about radically different orders of things here -- unless you want to talk merely about the human formulation of these things. What science seeks to speak about are the fundamental things; what poetry seeks to speak about are merely human things. Important as things such as love and justice are to some humans, they are not important to all humans, while the operations of the 2nd law of thermodynamics are important to all things, living or not, self-aware or not, human or not. That makes it look to me as if the 2nd law of thermodynamics is more fundamental and important in the greater scheme of things than justice or love, and that the human investigation of the 2nd law and like things is a different order of endeavor from the human endeavor of arranging words in the local patois into pretty patterns -- or ugly ones, either. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Mar 26 22:33:04 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:33:04 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stand Up Poetry References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D79@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <3CA13D6F.19E1DBE@earthlink.net> Well, funny---I saw Maxine Chernoff read last week and she was sitting down (broken leg I'm told...)... C "Graham, David" wrote: > (If you detest the work of Billy Collins and everything he stands for, you > might want to delete this message right now. . . .) > > The term "stand up poetry" is brand new to me, though it's apparently been > around for a little while. I just acquired an anthology of that title > edited by Charles Harper Webb (U Iowa 2002)--which is apparently an expanded > and updated version of an anthology from 1990. It was originally a book of > poetry from southern California, but has now been expanded geographically. > > Stand Up Poetry as presented in this anthology seems to be, well, often sort > of Billy Collinsy in nature, and Collins is of course included. Other poets > featured include Webb himself, Denise Duhamel, Mark Halliday, Ron Koertge, > Kim Addonizio, John Balaban, Wm. Trowbridge, James Tate, Dorianne Laux, > Betsy Sholl, Russell Edson, Pattiann Rogers, Thomas Lux, Bob Hicok, Paul > Hoover, Albert Goldbarth, Barbara Hamby, Amy Gerstler, Lucille Clifton, > Edward Field, Wanda Coleman, and Maxine Chernoff. > > The term SUP pays homage to Edward Field's book *Stand Up, Friend, With Me*, > Webb says. He offers the following traits as definitive of this genre (with > due qualifiers--not all poets/poems display all traits, there's much variety > to be found, etc.): humor, performability, clarity, natural language, > flights of fancy, a strong individual voice, emotional punch, close > relationship to fiction, use of urban and popular culture, wide open subject > matter. > > As might be expected, SUP is largely a product of the boom in poetry > readings--though not quite the same as slam or performance poetry. > > I'm not overly fond of the invention of new categories & terminology, but > SUP strikes me as performing a useful service of naming a real phenomenon. > I do wonder if many readers are actually using the term, or if it is mostly > a figment of the editor's imagination and effort at niche marketing. In any > case, in recent years I have noticed a profusion of poems that fit the bill, > and I guess it may be handy to have a term for such work more snappy than > "sort of Billy Collinsy in nature." > > I don't really have a point to make with this book report--just wanted to > see if anyone else has opinions. I haven't read the book yet, though it > seems from the table of contents that I already know a good deal of the work > included. > > David Graham > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ======================================== > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Tue Mar 26 21:36:57 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34 at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:36:57 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others References: Message-ID: <3CA13045.1E089E1F@earthlink.net> Hal posted a poem by Vladimir Holan a while ago and I was moved to check "Mirroring" out of the library. There's some good stuff in it, although there's obviously some musical and maybe even rhyming effects which don't survive translation out of the Czech. "Reminiscence II" After hours of crisscrossing the woods in a vain search for a pimpernel, we walked out at high noon and paused in the heather. The air was a scorched sheet of metal. We gazed at the opposite slope with its thick cover of trees and bushes. They were as still as we were. I was just about to ask something, when in that motionless, fixed mass, so enchanted the spine tingled, a single tree, in a single spot, suddenly began to shiver like a note of music, but without a sound. You would have said it was light-hearted joy, the pure spirit of adventure. But then the tree began to rustle like silver rustles as it turns black. Then it began to quiver like the skirt of a woman touching a man's clothes while reading a book in the madhouse. And then the tree began to tremble and shake, as if it were shaken by someone gazing into the black-eyed depths of love-- and I felt I was meant to die that very moment.... "Don't worry," my father said, "it's an aspen!" But I remember to this day how he grew pale when we came back there later, and saw an empty chair under the tree.... From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Tue Mar 26 21:44:38 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34 at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 19:44:38 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stand Up Poetry References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D79@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <3CA13212.35781E32@earthlink.net> Graham, David wrote: > (If you detest the work of Billy Collins and everything he stands for, you > might want to delete this message right now. . . .) How could one resist an email with such an opening? But what could Billy Collins stand for (that wasn't a dead cliche muttered by the rest of humanity for ages embellished only by Billy's personal rhetoric)? Has he ever written a political poem? (I'm not being snarky, I'm just honestly curious and don't have enough curiosity about Collins to find out myself. I would think of Lucille Clifton as having a political stance, somehow, or at least political views, but not Collins. Although that in itself would mean you were standing for unpolitical poetry, I guess.) Moira Russell Seattle, WA From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Tue Mar 26 23:00:29 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 22:00:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stand Up Poetry Message-ID: <200203270359.g2R3xAr34333@mx15.mx.voyager.net> "Stand Up" seems to be a play on stand-up comedy, among other things. But I'll quote from Webb's introduction: "The term emphasizes a characteristic which has sometimes caused this poetry to be dismissed: its sense of humor. . . . But the phrase implies more than comedy. Stand Up poems work well when read aloud--when the poet stands up and performs. In addition, the term implies honesty, courage, straightforwardness, as in 'stand up for your rights,' 'stand up and be counted,' 'stand up for what you believe.' Like the proverbial 'stand up guy,' Stand Up poetry is honest, unpretentious, strong." No, I don't think anyone would call Billy Collins a political poet, least of all Billy Collins, perhaps. I haven't read the book, as I said, so I can't say much yet about the contents. But I certainly wouldn't suppose that political content and comedy can never come together in a poem. Think of someone like Tim Seibles, for instance, or Tom McGrath. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ---------- >From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stand Up Poetry >Date: Tue, Mar 26, 2002, 8:44 PM > > > >Graham, David wrote: > >> (If you detest the work of Billy Collins and everything he stands for, you >> might want to delete this message right now. . . .) > >How could one resist an email with such an opening? But what could Billy >Collins stand for (that wasn't a dead cliche muttered by the rest of humanity >for ages embellished only by Billy's personal rhetoric)? Has he ever written a >political poem? (I'm not being snarky, I'm just honestly curious and don't >have enough curiosity about Collins to find out myself. I would think of >Lucille Clifton as having a political stance, somehow, or at least political >views, but not Collins. Although that in itself would mean you were standing >for unpolitical poetry, I guess.) > >Moira Russell >Seattle, WA > From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Tue Mar 26 22:35:23 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:35:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stand Up Poetry References: <200203270359.g2R3xAr34333@mx15.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3CA13DF6.F3883E62@earthlink.net> David Graham wrote: > "Stand Up" seems to be a play on stand-up comedy, among other things. But > I'll quote from Webb's introduction: > > "The term emphasizes a characteristic which has sometimes caused this poetry > to be dismissed: its sense of humor. . . . But the phrase implies more > than comedy. Stand Up poems work well when read aloud--when the poet stands > up and performs. In addition, the term implies honesty, courage, > straightforwardness, as in 'stand up for your rights,' 'stand up and be > counted,' 'stand up for what you believe.' Like the proverbial 'stand up > guy,' Stand Up poetry is honest, unpretentious, strong." Ah, "stand-up guy" does help me out, thanks (although iirc that also has a pejorative meaning -- like a cop who won't rat out a fellow corrupt cop is a stand-up guy. But this could just be the result of far too many "Law and Order" episodes). Speaking of Billy Collins, was anyone else quasi-offended by the sort-of famous "Taking Off Emily Dickinson's Clothes"? I didn't think it was anything ragingly Robert Bly-ish on his part, but it did annoy me that one of the most individual female poets was reduced to nearly literally her sexuality and stripped by the objective male gaze etc. etc. so that the power of her poetry was transformed into a far more conventional "sexuality." Plus, it reads like low-grade soft porn. I don't feel like burning his books or anything, but it mildly annoyed me. (Although one wonders if he has thought of the possibilities: "Disrobing Adrienne Rich," "Undressing Anne Sexton," "Eyeballing Sylvia Plath," and so on....) ** First, her tippet made of tulle, easily lifted off her shoulders and laid on the back of a wooden chair. And her bonnet, the bow undone with a light forward pull. Then the long white dress, a more complicated matter with mother-of-pearl buttons down the back, so tiny and numerous that it takes forever before my hands can part the fabric, like a swimmer's dividing water, and slip inside. You will want to know that she was standing by an open window in an upstairs bedroom, motionless, a little wide-eyed, looking out at the orchard below, the white dress puddled at her feet on the wide-board, hardwood floor. The complexity of women's undergarments in nineteenth-century America is not to be waved off, and I proceeded like a polar explorer through clips, clasps, and moorings, catches, straps, and whalebone stays, sailing toward the iceberg of her nakedness. Later, I wrote in a notebook it was like riding a swan into the night, but, of course, I cannot tell you everything - the way she closed her eyes to the orchard, how her hair tumbled free of its pins, how there were sudden dashes whenever we spoke. What I can tell you is it was terribly quiet in Amherst that Sabbath afternoon, nothing but a carriage passing the house, a fly buzzing in a windowpane. So I could plainly hear her inhale when I undid the very top hook-and-eye fastener of her corset and I could hear her sigh when finally it was unloosed, the way some readers sigh when they realize that Hope has feathers, that reason is a plank, that life is a loaded gun that looks right at you with a yellow eye. In Billy Collins's defense here's what he says about his own poem: Billy Collins: Actually I wrote it to be outrageous. It was a reaction to all the gossip and speculation about Emily Dickinson's sexuality. So I just undressed her. But the poem ends in a kind of homage to her writing. Actually I am working on a collection of poems to be published in 2000 by Picador in England. It will be called Taking Off Emily Dickinson's Clothes. Since I am not well known [in England], we thought the title would get some attention. ** There's an interview with Collins called "Undressing Emily Dickinson," but I couldn't find it on the net. I don't mean to pick on Billy Collins, this is just about the only poem of his I'm familiar with (Garrison Keillor read it on NPR, I think) and I was wondering what other people thought of it. Moira Russell Seattle, WA From odysseus34 at earthlink.net Tue Mar 26 22:52:33 2002 From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net (odysseus34) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 20:52:33 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Youngers of Yale References: <200203270359.g2R3xAr34333@mx15.mx.voyager.net> <3CA13DF6.F3883E62@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3CA141FA.F90DA929@earthlink.net> Remembering Sam's great ballade "Where Are the Yale Younger Poets of Yesteryear?" I found a URL on the Atlantic Unbound site about the Yale Younger Poets anthology, written by Peter Davison, who manages to work in Sylvia Plath's hungry yearning to win the contest and his rejection of her first poetry collection in his very first paragraph -- although he does manage to modestly hold off revealing his own winnership of the prize in 1964 until the fourth paragraph. While declaring he dislikes anthologies Davison grants "anthologies that prove a point are very often more interesting for their point than for their contents" and judges this anthology "lavishly proves its editor's point: that the Yale Series of Younger Poets has performed an admirable service in the past" (note those three last words). It's interesting to me this tastemaker has such a tepid reaction to a tastemaking organization, although maybe it's just that he doesn't like contemporary poetry as much as what he and his contemporaries produced: he calls the later entries "wan." I must confess the only thing I really remember about the Yale series as a whole is W.H. Auden's introduction to Adrienne Rich saying "these poems do not mumble, talk back to their elders, or tell fibs" or something like that. At any rate, it's an interesting article. http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98jun/poets.htm Moira Russell Seattle, WA From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Mar 27 00:48:09 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 00:48:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stand Up Poetry In-Reply-To: <3CA13DF6.F3883E62@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Actually, Moira, I'd love to see you write a poem called "Undressing Billy Collins." And I don't think the shade of E. D. has to worry about being "reduced" by a poem by Billy Collins. Offended? No. Not even quasi. Hal { Speaking of Billy Collins, was anyone else quasi-offended by the sort-of famous { "Taking Off Emily Dickinson's Clothes"? I didn't think it was anything ragingly { Robert Bly-ish on his part, but it did annoy me that one of the most individual { female poets was reduced to nearly literally her sexuality and stripped by the { objective male gaze etc. etc. so that the power of her poetry was transformed into { a far more conventional "sexuality." Plus, it reads like low-grade soft porn. I { don't feel like burning his books or anything, but it mildly annoyed me. (Although { one wonders if he has thought of the possibilities: "Disrobing Adrienne Rich," { "Undressing Anne Sexton," "Eyeballing Sylvia Plath," and so on....) { { ** { { First, her tippet made of tulle, { easily lifted off her shoulders and laid { on the back of a wooden chair. { { And her bonnet, { the bow undone with a light forward pull. { { Then the long white dress, a more { complicated matter with mother-of-pearl { buttons down the back, { so tiny and numerous that it takes forever { before my hands can part the fabric, { like a swimmer's dividing water, { and slip inside. { { You will want to know { that she was standing { by an open window in an upstairs bedroom, { motionless, a little wide-eyed, { looking out at the orchard below, { the white dress puddled at her feet { on the wide-board, hardwood floor. { { The complexity of women's undergarments { in nineteenth-century America { is not to be waved off, { and I proceeded like a polar explorer { through clips, clasps, and moorings, { catches, straps, and whalebone stays, { sailing toward the iceberg of her nakedness. { { Later, I wrote in a notebook { it was like riding a swan into the night, { but, of course, I cannot tell you everything - { the way she closed her eyes to the orchard, { how her hair tumbled free of its pins, { how there were sudden dashes { whenever we spoke. { { What I can tell you is { it was terribly quiet in Amherst { that Sabbath afternoon, { nothing but a carriage passing the house, { a fly buzzing in a windowpane. { So I could plainly hear her inhale { when I undid the very top { hook-and-eye fastener of her corset { { and I could hear her sigh when finally it was unloosed, { the way some readers sigh when they realize { that Hope has feathers, { that reason is a plank, { that life is a loaded gun { that looks right at you with a yellow eye. { { In Billy Collins's defense here's what he says about his own poem: { { Billy Collins: Actually I wrote it to be outrageous. It was a reaction to all the { gossip and speculation about Emily Dickinson's sexuality. So I just undressed her. { But the poem ends in a kind of homage to her writing. Actually I am working on a { collection of poems to be published in 2000 by Picador in England. It will be { called Taking Off Emily Dickinson's Clothes. Since I am not well known [in { England], we thought the title would get some attention. { { ** { { There's an interview with Collins called "Undressing Emily Dickinson," but I { couldn't find it on the net. I don't mean to pick on Billy Collins, this is just { about the only poem of his I'm familiar with (Garrison Keillor read it on NPR, I { think) and I was wondering what other people thought of it. { { Moira Russell { Seattle, WA { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 27 01:39:29 2002 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 01:39:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <3CA033D3.24937.2498606F@localhost> <3CA0F545.20828.278C237D@localhost> Message-ID: <3CA16921.FD6646A1@ix.netcom.com> Actually, the concept of the Second Law of Thermodynamics is undergoing some reconstruction now due to observational and theoretical requirements arising out of so-called "open systems" e.g. complexity (see quote below). Also, as suggested by another listee, it doesn't hurt to read Feyerabend's Against Method to appreciate the historical mutability of previously "fundamental" scientific theories. Also, Heidegger's notion of historicity is helpful. Russell Hanson's Patterns of Discovery, Edmund Husserl's The Crisis of the European Sciences and Transcendental Phenomenology, anything Niels Bohr, himself, wrote on quantum paradox, 'vizualization', the Copenhagen Interpretation, and many other works that go against the grain and rankle the conservative physics community, a community which in general is not given to epistemological reflection much less criticism. A humorous story revolves around physicist/ mathematician Frank Tipler and his aforementioned book, The Physics of Immortality. When Frank wrote the book it was generally accepted among scientists that the universe would expand and then collapse in upon itself into what is called a singuarity or Omega Point. Tipler construed this scientific evidence as a foretelling of the Apocalypse including a scientifically demonstrated Second Coming with the resurrection of every one who had ever lived, angels---the whole hundred yards. The first part of the book is his theory. The second part is pretty much every important "fundamental" set of mathematical equations in physics including the Second Law to muster support for his Biblical proof. But right after Frank, a very well-respected and influential scientist, published his book with a major trade publisher, new evidence emerged suggesting that the universe would simply keep on expanding. No Omega Point, no Second Coming. Frank's ideas were perfectly consistent with the current priniciples of mathematical physics at the time. Could Frank be wrong? This kind of wild and troubling speculation in the sciences is not uncommon. And it always comes out of the current prevailing interpretations and a belief in their immutability. Strong A.I proponent John McCarthy once said: "My thermostat has 3 beliefs. Its too hot in here. Its too cold in here. Its just right in here." Goldilocks? "So how does complexity form out of a universe moving towards greater entropy and overall equilibrium? Through non-equilibrium states. Ever since matter began forming in the universe, thousands of years after the big bang, non-equilibrium states (especially in the localities of forming and existing solar systems, galaxies, clusters, etc.) have been on the rise, creating ever increasingly complex structures. Chaisson states (in italics even) that "cosmic expansion itself is the prime move for the construction of a hierarchy of complex entities throughout the Universe" (p. 126) and "in an expanding Universe, both the disorder [Second Law] and the order can increase simultaneously--a fundamental duality, strange but true." Marcus Bales wrote: > > >Marcus Bales: > > >"That they are non-existent apart from being human constructs, with > > >perhaps the exception of "fate" which may be just another way to > > >talk about the 2nd law of thermodynamics -- but probably not in the > > >apparent context of the other notions in which you present it." > > Henry Gould: > > The 2nd Law is no less a human construct.<< > > No, sir. Possibly you might be right in saying that the formulation > of the 2nd law (or the name of it, since who are we to say that it's > the 2nd one, really?) of thermodynmaics is a human construct, but > we're not really speaking of that kind of thing, as I understand it. > > The 2nd law of thermodynamics is a human description of what we > think we know of the way the whole megillah works. We could be > wrong, of course, but most of us don't think so. Not so with > notions such as justice, though. Justice is purely a human tale -- > there is no justice where there are no humans. It's a human > invention in a way that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is no > invention at all. The 2nd law is based on observation of the way the > world appears to us to really work. Justice is wishful thinking. > > > Charles Peirce, among others, > > would argue that they (love, justice, God, and so on) are at least as > > "existent" as the formal laws of science. << > > I'd be delighted to read the parts of C S Peirce's work that argue > that love and justice and God are at least as existent as the formal > laws of science. It strikes me that this is probably a carefully- > worded bit of business on your part, and that Peirce's argument is > that the *formulation* of the laws of science are no more real, or > existent, or whatever than the *formulation* of the laws of a polity, > or the *formulation* of the laws of poetry, or the *formulation* of the > laws of love. If that's what you're asserting, we can agree on THAT - > - but that's an entirely different notion than the one you were > asserting earlier, that love and justice and the like *exist* in the > same way the 2nd law of thermodynamics *exists*. > > Henry Gould: > > I don't think all scientists > > would agree with you on the reduction of universals to non-existence apart > > from human formulation. > > If there were no humans there would be none of the human > interactions we call "love" or "justice" and, thus, no existence of > them at all, much less as "universals". They are simply not > universal; they are merely human constructs contingent on the > existence of humanity -- and even within that contingency, > additionally contingent on enough humans caring about such > notions to bother with them -- and often they do not. Ever hear of > the Khmer Rouge? And there are historical horror stories enough > through the ages to let us know that that sort of thing happens > more often than not. We happen to be very lucky to be living in a > time and place where enough people care about love and justice to > converse about it. > > But the universe is not contingent on the existence of love or > justice -- or any of those other notions you put forward as > examples. The universe, so far as we can tell, is, however, > contingent on the 2nd law of thermodynamics working as it does -- > or there'd be no universe as we know it. > > Justice disappears for years, decades, centuries at a time over > narrower or wider ranges of the human condition and humans > survive. If the 2nd law of thermodynamics stopped working for a > couple hours in the locality of humanity, humanity would in all > likelihood cease to exist. > > We are talking about radically different orders of things here -- > unless you want to talk merely about the human formulation of > these things. > > What science seeks to speak about are the fundamental things; > what poetry seeks to speak about are merely human things. > Important as things such as love and justice are to some humans, > they are not important to all humans, while the operations of the > 2nd law of thermodynamics are important to all things, living or not, > self-aware or not, human or not. > > That makes it look to me as if the 2nd law of thermodynamics is > more fundamental and important in the greater scheme of things > than justice or love, and that the human investigation of the 2nd law > and like things is a different order of endeavor from the human > endeavor of arranging words in the local patois into pretty patterns -- > or ugly ones, either. > > Marcus Bales > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 27 02:19:41 2002 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 02:19:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <3CA033D3.24937.2498606F@localhost> <3CA0F545.20828.278C237D@localhost> <3CA16921.FD6646A1@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3CA1728C.7BEFEDBD@ix.netcom.com> Two works by scientists with differing takes on the Second law. In 1998, computer scientist Christoph Adami agrees that trouble dogs the marriage of biology and logical entropy. In Introduction to Artificial Life (27), he comments on "the decades of confusion that have reigned over the treatment of living systems from the point of view of thermodynamics and information theory..." (p 59). He says, "information is always shared between two ensembles" (p 70), a restriction that sounds promising. Yet in his section entitled "Second Law of Thermodynamics," he says that as a thermodynamic system is put into contact with another one at a lower temperature, and thermal equilibrium is reached, the total entropy of the combined ensemble "stays constant" (p 99). This flatly contradicts the second law. Later, applying the second law to information, he explains that only the "conditional entropy" increases in such examples. "The unconditional (or marginal) entropy ? given by conditional entropy plus mutual entropy... stays constant" (p 118, Adami's italics). More new kinds of entropy. In 1999'sThe Fifth Miracle (28), theoretical physicist and science writer Paul Davies devotes a chapter, "Against the Tide," to the relationship between entropy and biology. In an endnote to that chapter he writes, " 'higher' organisms have higher (not lower) algorithmic entropy..." (p 277, Davies' italics) ? another reversal of the usual understanding. He concludes, "The source of biological information, then, is the organism's environment" (p 57). Later, "Gravitationally induced instability is a source of information" (p 63). But this "still leaves us with the problem.... How has meaningful information emerged in the universe?" (p 65). He has no answer for this question. This third entry is funny because Yockey wrote a whole monograph based on an intellectual practical joke that apparently he isn't in on. Claude Shannon's notion of 'entropy' in information theory dates back to his Bell Lab days. John von Neuamann was present the day Shannon was to give his famous paper, A Mathematical Theory of Communication. Shannon confided to von Neumann that he could not come up witha term for certain mathematically described physical properties concerning communication. Von Neumann quipped "Just call it entropy. No one knows what entropy means anyway." Shannon's use of the term has always puzzled scientists and engineers and seems to be a generic term for the loss of information during its transfer utterly divorced from thermodynamics. CP Dr. Hubert P. Yockey gives the subject of entropy and biology a probing and insightful treatment in his monograph, Information theory and molecular biology (26). He emphatically agrees that there are different kinds of entropy that do not correlate. "...The Shannon entropy and the Maxwell-Boltzmann-Gibbs entropy... have nothing to do with each other" (p 313). But Shannon entropy (which pertains to information theory) makes no distinction between meaningful DNA sequences that encode life and random DNA sequences of equal length. Therefore, Yockey is able to conclude that evolution does not create any paradox for Shannon entropy. Nevertheless, Yockey proves with impressive command of biology and statistics that it would be impossible to find the new genes necessary for evolutionary progress by the random search method currently in favor. He is deeply sceptical of the prevailing theories of evolution and the origin of life on Earth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Mar 27 07:42:21 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 07:42:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game Theory In-Reply-To: <3CA0EC74.BA31AA23@ix.netcom.com> References: <3C9FE21B.3EBD4A31@earthlink.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20020326075144.00aa8e30@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020327073935.00acadb0@postoffice.brown.edu> True enough, Carlo. Simone Weil draws out some fascinating implications for the big words in philosophy from Greek science & mathematics. There was an interesting article about the poetry in physics in yesterday's NY Times - maybe I can forward it to the list. Henry >what >does physics have to say about mercy, pity, justice, love, humanity, God, >fate, destiny, freedom?> >Carlo replied: >Actually, if you don't restrict yourself to physics, the sciences have >"something to say" about all of the above. From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Mar 27 08:00:50 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:00:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: NYTimes.com Article: The Most Seductive Equation in Science: Beauty Equals Truth Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020327075939.00aad530@postoffice.brown.edu> An interesting sidelight on the poetry/science discussion, from Tuesday's NY Times. - Henry >The Most Seductive Equation in Science: Beauty Equals Truth > >March 26, 2002 > >By DENNIS OVERBYE > > >Mathematicians often say that they feel as if their theorems >and laws have an objective reality which they do not create >but merely discover. > >http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/26/science/26MATH.html?ex=1018233347&ei=1&en=cf9311178fa97308 > ******************************************************** HG afloat: www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Mar 27 08:27:30 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:27:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3CA0F545.20828.278C237D@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020326084728.00aaa980@postoffice.brown.edu> <3CA033D3.24937.2498606F@localhost> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020327080754.00ac9360@postoffice.brown.edu> >Marcus wrote: >No, sir. Possibly you might be right in saying that the formulation >of the 2nd law (or the name of it, since who are we to say that it's >the 2nd one, really?) of thermodynmaics is a human construct, but >we're not really speaking of that kind of thing, as I understand it. This is perhaps where we disagree. I hold that what we represent by words like "justice", "love", and so forth really exists just as substantially as the phenomena we represent by the laws of thermodynamics. >Marcus wrote: >I'd be delighted to read the parts of C S Peirce's work that argue >that love and justice and God are at least as existent as the formal >laws of science. It strikes me that this is probably a carefully- >worded bit of business on your part, Well, that's very nice of you. I will have to search back in my Peirce book on his position regarding realism/nominalism & the existence of universals. I do have this quote for you: "As to God - open your eyes, and your heart - which is also a perceptive organ - and you see him." >Marcus further: >We are talking about radically different orders of things here -- >unless you want to talk merely about the human formulation of >these things. > >What science seeks to speak about are the fundamental things; >what poetry seeks to speak about are merely human things. >Important as things such as love and justice are to some humans, >they are not important to all humans, while the operations of the >2nd law of thermodynamics are important to all things, living or not, >self-aware or not, human or not. Your dichotomies are questionable. I think it can be argued that existence depends upon an order of love, beauty and justice. I have no all-encompassing rationale to present for this assertion - only the varied & partial "proofs" supplied in different ways by both science and art. Nor would I want to claim that art MUST participate in any such depositions. Art is free. But I think, as the article from the Times I forwarded underlines, that the activities of the imagination can be regarded as something more than the ornamentation of platitudes, and as something shared by both scientists & poets. Henry From JforJames at aol.com Wed Mar 27 09:11:11 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:11:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket has moved Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 12:05:33 +1100 From: John Tranter Subject: Jacket has moved to http://jacketmagazine.com/ -- please make a note Jacket magazine has moved to its own new, permanent Internet domain. http://jacketmagazine.com/ So please change your bookmarked pages. ........................................................................... Each page of magazine now has a new, easy-to-remember address. For a start, those horrible wwws are gone. And the base address is simpler: The old address: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/ The new address: http://jacketmagazine.com/ and each issue's address is shorter: jacket16/ is now 16/ Here's an old address: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket16/index.html Here's the new version: http://jacketmagazine.com/16/index.html And some pages with long filenames have had their names shortened. Sorry for the bother, and thanks for reading Jacket. John Tranter, Editor From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu Wed Mar 27 09:22:51 2002 From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:22:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game Message-ID: Green Is it green with envy or green with formaldehyde? And when is it just Kermit-the-Frog green? Or seasick green? Or spring all green? Does green come without a smell? When scientists rename the world, Their metaphors become facts. When they abut the green wall, Their skulls can feel physical pain, So there must be a green wall, Or at least a wall that their retina Transforms into green in the brain. As for poets, those interior Decorators, green affords scant Payoff, whether for the poem Or for the weather in the poem. So I guess that accounts for why Poets so envy science. Dr. Mike From JforJames at aol.com Wed Mar 27 09:23:56 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:23:56 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Cambridge Quarterly Message-ID: <184.5c90e5c.29d32ffc@aol.com> Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:39:03 -0000 From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Cambridge Quarterly Petcs might be interested in the current edition of the Cambridge Quarterly, available on-line at; http://www3.oup.co.uk/camquj/current/ (it requires the Adobe Acrobat Reader) particularly for John Wilkinson's triple review of recent anthologies of contemporary British poetry (and its forerunners) namely the Armitage & Crawford marketplace vision, the Keith Tuma take from the States, and Edna Longley's Ulster-poet-centric account. From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Mar 27 11:19:40 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:19:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: NYTimes.com Article: The Most Seductive Equation in Science: Beauty Equals Truth References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020327075939.00aad530@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <008b01c1d5ab$33c5a7c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Here's an excerpt from the Times article. Dennis Overbye, by the bye, is the author of a book on astronomy with the lovely title, "Lonely Hearts of the Cosmos." n the fall of 1915, Albert Einstein, living amid bachelor clutter on coffee, tobacco and loneliness in Berlin, was close to scrawling the final touches to a new theory of gravity that he had pursued through mathematical and logical labyrinths for nearly a decade. But first he had to see what his theory had to say about the planet Mercury, whose puzzling orbit around the Sun defied the Newtonian correctness that had long ruled the cosmos and science. The result was a kind of cosmic "boing" that changed his life. Einstein's general theory of relativity, as it was known, described gravity as warped space-time. It had no fudge factors - no dials to twiddle. When the calculation nailed Mercury's orbit Einstein had heart palpitations. Something inside him snapped, he later reported, and whatever doubt he had harbored about his theory was transformed into what a friend called "savage certainty." He later told a student that it would have been "too bad for God," if the theory had been subsequently disproved. The experience went a long way toward convincing Einstein that mathematics could be a telegraph line to God, and he spent most of the rest of his life in an increasingly abstract and ultimately fruitless pursuit of a unified theory of physics. Rare indeed is the scientist who has not at one point or other been seduced by the beauty of his own equations and dumbfounded by what the physicist Dr. Eugene Wigner of Princeton once called the "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics" in describing the world. The endless fall of the moon, the fairy glow of a rainbow, the crush of a nuclear shock wave are all explicable by scratches on a piece of paper, that is to say, equations. Every time an airplane safely touches down on time, a computer boots up, or a cake comes out right, the miracle is recreated. "The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible," Einstein said. Math is the language of physics, but is it the language of God? Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Gould" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 8:00 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: NYTimes.com Article: The Most Seductive Equation in Science: Beauty Equals Truth > An interesting sidelight on the poetry/science discussion, from Tuesday's > NY Times. - Henry > > > >The Most Seductive Equation in Science: Beauty Equals Truth > > > >March 26, 2002 > > > >By DENNIS OVERBYE > > > > > >Mathematicians often say that they feel as if their theorems > >and laws have an objective reality which they do not create > >but merely discover. > > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/26/science/26MATH.html?ex=1018233347&ei=1&en =cf9311178fa97308 > > > ******************************************************** > HG afloat: www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html > www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark > "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Mar 27 12:11:43 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:11:43 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry vs. Prose Message-ID: <45.14faee3e.29d3574f@cs.com> I always give this bit of wisdom to my poetry-writing classes. Prose, I mean ordinary expository prose, is transparent language, like a pane of glass. Its function is to let meaning through as clearly as possible. And the best prose, prose which is not dolled up to behave like poetry, does not call attention to itself. Poetry on the other hand is like a stained glass window. It is translucent. It lets the light through, but the beauty of its design is there for its own sake. Prose makes statements, saying what it means. Poetry makes designs, showing what it is. Prose might describe what it is like to drink a mug of beer. Poetry makes you think that you are actually drinking it. Prose says: "The strident sound of small boys' voices." Poetry says: "Yes, their voices like wasp stings." Prose says: "I am in a deep state of depression." Poetry says: "If I were under water I would scarcely kick to come to the top." Prose says: "It was a lovely calm evening." Poetry says: "One faint eternal eventide of gems." Prose says: "I feel frustrated, unfulfilled." Poetry says: "My life is riding on a flat tire." Prose says: "Peppermint oil." Poetry says: "You mean oil of peppermint." Prose is necessary; poetry is irresistible. -- Paul Roche -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 27 12:46:48 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:46:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Truth and Beauty References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020327075939.00aad530@postoffice.brown.edu> <008b01c1d5ab$33c5a7c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <002701c1d5b7$5f763b80$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> For what it's worth, my theory of knowlecular psychology holds that (significant) truth and beauty are the same thing: a pleasurably incomplete match between reality and one's expectations--except for which part of the brain one recognizes them in (the conceptual, or what I call the reducticeptual, part for truth, and the sensual, mainly, or what I call the fundaceptual, part for beauty--take notes, kids). They are recognized the same way--and, for me, are equally valuable, and more valuable than anything else in life. The best of the other things in life merely make it possible to live; truth and beauty make making it possible to live not a crime. There are no higher vocations than artist and scientist. Both truth and beauty die when the match of reality and expectations becomes too great, truth becoming a sort of sub-truth rather than falsity, beauty becoming ugliness--but an ugliness of excessive predictability rather than an ugliness of the disturbingly unknown. Just dogma I felt an urge to post after reading Henry and Marcus, not anything I want to argue to any extent with anyone. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Mar 27 12:52:15 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:52:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <45.14faee3e.29d3574f@cs.com> Message-ID: <3CA1C07F.31298.11FC8BC@localhost> Marcus: >>Not unless you think that "It's tough to realize you're getting old" or "Life is pretty random, isn't it" or "Things change and we still go on" are "real ideas" in the way that the second law of thermodynamics (which states that entropy increases over time as organized forms decay into randomness) is a "real idea" -- and maybe you do, and maybe you're right to do so. I don't happen to think so.<< Finegan: >> Not to gang up on you, Marcus, but I'm wondering about the accuracy of calling a law (subject to mathematical proof and experimental verification) an "idea" (whether real or unreal). It seems to me an idea is more akin to scientific "theory."<< First, I'm having some email problems as a result of the verio/earthlink situation, so to answer these emails I have to go to the archive and cut and paste them to email, so please bear with me regarding the missing little automatic > thingies at the left of lines. The difference between "a law" and "a theory", though, is nominative not real, it seems to me. "The Theory of Evolution" and "The Second Law of Thermodynamics" are, it seems to me, differently denoted for social and political reasons, not because there is any more scientific doubt about evolution than about thermodynamics. They are ideas with explanatory facility and persuasive power. Finegan: >> What many poets are grappling with or embellishing or attacking from new directions (one hopes) are commonplaces only in the sense that these ideas are as old as human thought (philosophical,theological, social and archetypal themes). These may be human constructs but I don't see them as of lesser value than scientific theories or laws of nature. << I don't say they are of lesser value for human beings. I assert that the differences between poems are of a different order, and to a different purpose, than the differences between scientific experiments. Poets are pushing words in their local patois about for the entertainment of their friends and admirers. Poets are not actually grappling with the ideas themselves, or making contributions to the deeper understanding of those ideas by people who are trying to apply those ideas to the world (who, for example, can remember the last time that a politician quoted a poet's views instead of a physicist's when trying to persuade other politicians to vote for funding? Who can remember any time at all that one physicist, trying to persuade another, quoted a poet's views on the issue?) What poets do is putter about in their patois looking for verbal or linguistic coincidences. Perhaps at this point it would be better to speak in specifics rather than in generalities. Do you have any examples you'd like to offer of poems that do more than putter in the patois? Finegan: >>This discussion started with 'prose' as it's used to make a 'poem,' and the question of how that is possible. First, as others have noted, prose isn't one thing. Prose stylists are as varied and idiosyncratic as the stylists of the poetic line; and the prose itself runs the gamut from something straightforward and flat to most involuted and purple, with innumerable identifiable variations in between, or even within the same text.<< It seems to me that if there is any useful distinction between poetry and prose it inheres in poetry's claim to be something more than, something above, something better than prose -- and the observation that what is lineated on the page as a poem seems to have none of the characteristics of poetry, but rather appears to be *merely* lineated prose is a substantial criticism. There doesn't even seem to be much disagreement about whether the McManus poem in question offers much in the way of the characteristics of poetry, whatever they may be, for a group of people who are much taken, and very familiar with, a wide range of literature and who, thus, ought to know. Finegan: >>I think we have to look at the poem and say this is "bad prose," and then explain why. The derogatory use of the word "prose" when criticizing a poem, without some description of the prose itself, is to be blind to what prose is capable of when used in the context of what a poem is. << That prose has a wide range of characteristics from flat to purple seems not very relevant to the criticism of a poem as being prose-like, since neither flat nor purple sound to me as if they are the sorts of adjectives by which a poet would like to have his or her poem described. But the question of what "prose is capable of when used in the context of what a poem is" sounds very much as if you're conflating the two in a profound way. It is as if you are in some way unwilling to distinguish between poetry and prose in any profound way; as if you would like to think of the continuum of writing as going seamlessly from flat prose over here to heightened poetry over there without much, if any, worry about which is which -- just call it all what? "literature"? But even that raises, then, the question of the difference between literature and non- literature. How is literary poetry different, if it is different in such a scheme, from advertising? How is literary prose different from, say, journalism? Finegan: >> Which brings us back to that question: Is it a poem if I say it's poem? No, is probably the right answer. But it is a poem if you and enough readers say it is. (How many is enough?..well, it doesn't take too many in the relatively small world of poetry audiences.) So it's actually the poem's responsibility (with the poet's help, and the help of audience building entities, publishers and venue hosts) to define itself by claiming a readership.<< You're describing a political process here it seems to me -- one in which the merits, or lack of them, of the new poem within a given structure make no difference if one is able to change the structure to value the elements of the new poem. You seem to be saying that poetry is politics, which I'll be happy to agree with, since that pretty much makes poetry rhetoric, doesn't it. Finegan: >> What means the poem employs (in prose or metered verse, with imagery or by ravishing rhetoric, thru subject matter or nonsense) to this end are wide open...but probably not so wide open as to be a coffee mug. (Tho, that example made me think of how R. Mutt's "Font" famously answered the question: What is Art?) I think we can safely say the text is most likely to succeed by employing those means that will differentiate it from other texts we broadly call fiction, non-fiction, journalism, etc. In a certain sense, the easiest way to do so is to write the poem in meter & rime. The poem, even if bad, by doing so presents itself readily as being in that category of writing we call poetry; once differentiated however, it must make use of other means (often less overt) in order to distinguish itself.<< First, it seems to me that just the ragged-right margin is enough to make the claim that a piece of writing is "poetry" -- on need not go so far as to use rhyme or a standard meter. But it is just those "other means (often less overt)" that seem to me to be at issue here -- and to pass over them lightly as you have done seems to me to elide rather than address the issue. Finegan: >>re: Critic's Bag I'm reading Harold Bloom's "Breaking of the Vessels" right now. Of course as a literary critic, Bloom has reason to valorize criticism, and in an essay called Ratios he makes the case that language of literary criticism (at its best) is not very different from poetry: "Though I insist that the language of poetry and the language of criticism cannot differ, in more than degree,I doubt that we can speak of more than the language of individual poets and of individual critics. Strong criticism, like strong poetry, usurps, and this usurpation always begins with appropriation of what is then available in the language. Emerson knew this, what did he not know?" << This reminds me of Aquinas's little joke in Summa Theologicae: "The appeal to authority is the weakest sort of argument, according to Boethius". Marcus: >>Not unless you think that "It's tough to realize you're getting old" or "Life is pretty random, isn't it" or "Things change and we still go on" are "real ideas" in the way that the second law of thermodynamics (which states that entropy increases over time as organized forms decay into randomness) is a "real idea" -- and maybe you do, and maybe you're right to do so. I don't happen to think so.<< Finegan: >> Not to gang up on you, Marcus, but I'm wondering about the accuracy of calling a law (subject to mathematical proof and experimental verification) an "idea" (whether real or unreal). It seems to me an idea is more akin to scientific "theory."<< First, I'm having some email problems as a result of the verio/earthlink situation, so to answer these emails I have to go to the archive and cut and paste them to email, so please bear with me regarding the missing little automatic > thingies at the left of lines. The difference between "a law" and "a theory", though, is nominative not real, it seems to me. "The Theory of Evolution" and "The Second Law of Thermodynamics" are, it seems to me, differently denoted for social and political reasons, not because there is any more scientific doubt about evolution than about thermodynamics. They are ideas with explanatory facility and persuasive power. Finegan: >> What many poets are grappling with or embellishing or attacking from new directions (one hopes) are commonplaces only in the sense that these ideas are as old as human thought (philosophical,theological, social and archetypal themes). These may be human constructs but I don't see them as of lesser value than scientific theories or laws of nature. << I don't say they are of lesser value for human beings. I assert that the differences between poems are of a different order, and to a different purpose, than the differences between scientific experiments. Poets are pushing words in their local patois about for the entertainment of their friends and admirers. Poets are not actually grappling with the ideas themselves, or making contributions to the deeper understanding of those ideas by people who are trying to apply those ideas to the world (who, for example, can remember the last time that a politician quoted a poet's views instead of a physicist's when trying to persuade other politicians to vote for funding? Who can remember any time at all that one physicist, trying to persuade another, quoted a poet's views on the issue?) What poets do is putter about in their patois looking for verbal or linguistic coincidences. Perhaps at this point it would be better to speak in specifics rather than in generalities. Do you have any examples you'd like to offer of poems that do more than putter in the patois? Finegan: >>This discussion started with 'prose' as it's used to make a 'poem,' and the question of how that is possible. First, as others have noted, prose isn't one thing. Prose stylists are as varied and idiosyncratic as the stylists of the poetic line; and the prose itself runs the gamut from something straightforward and flat to most involuted and purple, with innumerable identifiable variations in between, or even within the same text.<< It seems to me that if there is any useful distinction between poetry and prose it inheres in poetry's claim to be something more than, something above, something better than prose -- and the observation that what is lineated on the page as a poem seems to have none of the characteristics of poetry, but rather appears to be *merely* lineated prose is a substantial criticism. There doesn't even seem to be much disagreement about whether the McManus poem in question offers much in the way of the characteristics of poetry, whatever they may be, for a group of people who are much taken, and very familiar with, a wide range of literature and who, thus, ought to know. Finegan: >>I think we have to look at the poem and say this is "bad prose," and then explain why. The derogatory use of the word "prose" when criticizing a poem, without some description of the prose itself, is to be blind to what prose is capable of when used in the context of what a poem is. << That prose has a wide range of characteristics from flat to purple seems not very relevant to the criticism of a poem as being prose-like, since neither flat nor purple sound to me as if they are the sorts of adjectives by which a poet would like to have his or her poem described. But the question of what "prose is capable of when used in the context of what a poem is" sounds very much as if you're conflating the two in a profound way. It is as if you are in some way unwilling to distinguish between poetry and prose in any profound way; as if you would like to think of the continuum of writing as going seamlessly from flat prose over here to heightened poetry over there without much, if any, worry about which is which -- just call it all what? "literature"? But even that raises, then, the question of the difference between literature and non- literature. How is literary poetry different, if it is different in such a scheme, from advertising? How is literary prose different from, say, journalism? Finegan: >> Which brings us back to that question: Is it a poem if I say it's poem? No, is probably the right answer. But it is a poem if you and enough readers say it is. (How many is enough?..well, it doesn't take too ma ny in the relatively small world of poetry audiences.) So it's actually the poem's responsibility (with the poet's help, and the help of audience building entities, publishers and venue hosts) to define itself by claiming a readership.<< You're describing a political process here it seems to me -- one in which the merits, or lack of them, of the new poem within a given structure make no difference if one is able to change the structure to value the elements of the new poem. You seem to be saying that poe t ry is politics, which I'll be happy to agree with, since that pretty much makes poetry rhetoric, doesn't it. Finegan: >> What means the poem employs (in prose or metered verse, with imagery or by ravishing rhetoric, thru subject matter or nonsense) to th is end are wide open...but probably not so wide open as to be a coffee mug. (Tho, that example made me think of how R. Mutt's "Font" famously answered the question: What is Art?) I think we can safely say the text is most likely to succeed by employing th o se means that will differentiate it from other texts we broadly call fiction, non-fiction, journalism, etc. In a certain sense, the easiest way to do so is to write the poem in meter & rime. The poem, even if bad, by doing so presents itself readily as be i ng in that category of writing we call poetry; once differentiated however, it must make use of other means (often less overt) in order to distinguish itself.<< First, it seems to me that just the ragged-right margin is enough to make the claim that a pie ce of writing is "poetry" -- on need not go so far as to use rhyme or a standard meter. But it is just those "other means (often less overt)" that seem to me to be at issue here -- and to pass over them lightly as you have done seems to me to elide rather than address the issue. Finegan: >>re: Critic's Bag I'm reading Harold Bloom's "Breaking of the Vessels" right now. Of course as a literary critic, Bloom has reason to valorize criticism, and in an essay called Ratios he makes the case that language of l iterary criticism (at its best) is not very different from poetry: "Though I insist that the language of poetry and the language of criticism cannot differ, in more than degree,I doubt that we can speak of more than the language of individual poets and of individual critics. Strong criticism, like strong poetry, usurps, and this usurpation always begins with appropriation of what is then available in the language. Emerson knew this, what did he not know?" << This reminds me of Aquinas's little joke in Summa Theologicae: "The appeal to authority is the weakest sort of argument, according to Boethius". marcus at designerglass.com From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Wed Mar 27 12:55:35 2002 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:55:35 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Poetry vs. Prose Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D7B@mail.ripon.edu> This is highly evocative but I'm not sure I care for the poetry/prose duality presented here. Seems to me that the relevant contrast is between language used in a utilitarian way and language used in a literary way. In other words, not poetry/prose but literature/functional language. Is the best prose necessarily that which is not "dolled up to behave like poetry"? I sure hope not, both for the sake of well-textured prose, and for the sake of poetry, which isn't necessarily a game of dress-up. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== > ---------- > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 11:11 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry vs. Prose > > I always give this bit of wisdom to my poetry-writing classes. > > Prose, I mean ordinary expository prose, is transparent language, like a > pane of glass. Its function is to let meaning through as clearly as > possible. And the best prose, prose which is not dolled up to behave like > poetry, does not call attention to itself. Poetry on the other hand is > like a stained glass window. It is translucent. It lets the light > through, but the beauty of its design is there for its own sake. > Prose makes statements, saying what it means. Poetry makes designs, > showing what it is. Prose might describe what it is like to drink a mug > of beer. Poetry makes you think that you are actually drinking it. > Prose says: "The strident sound of small boys' voices." > Poetry says: "Yes, their voices like wasp stings." > Prose says: "I am in a deep state of depression." > Poetry says: "If I were under water I would scarcely kick to come to the > top." > Prose says: "It was a lovely calm evening." > Poetry says: "One faint eternal eventide of gems." > Prose says: "I feel frustrated, unfulfilled." > Poetry says: "My life is riding on a flat tire." > Prose says: "Peppermint oil." > Poetry says: "You mean oil of peppermint." > Prose is necessary; poetry is irresistible. > > -- Paul Roche > From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Mar 27 12:54:31 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:54:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of" Message-ID: Here's a found poem of mine that was published in *Synaesthetic* some years ago. It's a poem because I say it is, because I saw it as such and present it as such. Book indexes are triumphs of the alphabet over chronology. Glenn Gould, The Art and Life of (A Found Poem) abandoning of piano considered by alter egos of ancestry of as animal lover back injury of boating accident of book published by books owned by Canadian composers recorded by cars of chair built for childhood of clothing worn by, for warmth clothing worn by, in performance competition hated by composers denigrated by concert career abandoned by concert performing disliked by control of hands lost by counterpoint as preoccupation of "creative cheating" by critics disliked by critics parodied by death of depression suffered by devotion needed by as driver early influences on eating and drinking habits of eccentricities of enemies nicknamed by fan letters to film scores by first concert attended by first experience of booing by flying feared by F minor as key to personality of fugues analyzed by games enjoyed by Grammy won by grave of hair of hands and arms soaked by hands of, insurance on hands of, sensitivity in harmonica studied by health precautions taken by health problems of hedonism disapproved of by homes of honors awarded to as hypochondriac as iconoclast hymns loved by immortality sought by improvisation distrusted by inability to analyze own talent of insomnia suffered by isolation of Italian opera disliked by late-night activity of lefthandedness of listening talents of medication taken by memorial service for memorization skills of money earned by mystical view of pianist's art held by need for control as obsession of newspaper written by (in childhood) "North" as concept of pedantry of persona of pets of Philadelphia phobia of photographs of, described physical appearance of physical mannerisms of, while playing piano's height as concern of pianos owned by pianos used by posture of press coverage of privacy guarded by private life of as prodigy prose style of pseudonyms of publicity as viewed by purpose of art as viewed by as Puritan reclusiveness of religion of reviews of lectures by reviews of music composed by reviews of writing by rivals of romantic relationship of sanity of self-consciousness of sensitivity to cold of sensitivity to physical contact of sexuality of as showman shyness of sight-reading ability of singing enjoyed by singing of, as mannerism solitude as preoccupation of spiritual explorations by stock market played by string quartet composed by stroke suffered by summer cottage of telephone conversations of tempo as concern of travel disliked by unpublished writing of videotapes owned by visual imagery in playing of Western musical tradition as viewed by work habits of writing enjoyed by Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Mar 27 13:03:50 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:03:50 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Poetry vs. Prose Message-ID: <4c.8d8caf7.29d36386@cs.com> In a message dated 3/27/2002 11:56:20 AM Central Standard Time, GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU writes: > This is highly evocative but I'm not sure I care for the poetry/prose > duality presented here. Seems to me that the relevant contrast is between > language used in a utilitarian way and language used in a literary way. In > other words, not poetry/prose but literature/functional language. > I think Roche makes the same distinction, in the same way that we use "poetic" to refer to prose that uses language in a heightened manner. > Is the best prose necessarily that which is not "dolled up to behave like > poetry"? I sure hope not, both for the sake of well-textured prose, and for > the sake of poetry, which isn't necessarily a game of dress-up. > Still "prosaic" is generally a term of denigration while "poetic" is used for praise. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Cadaly at aol.com Wed Mar 27 13:04:40 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:04:40 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stand Up Poetry Message-ID: <16f.b116d26.29d363b8@aol.com> Brendan Constantine, a local "stand up poet", wrote one; a student of mine then wrote one called "Undressing Brendan Constantine" and gave them all to Billy Collins. Been there, done that, Catherine Daly P.S. Actually, the table of contents seems to have changed a great deal from 1990. Stand up poetry has eclipsed performance poetry here in LA. I personally believe performance poetry is profoundly different from actors and the comedians who have replaced them reading poems with verve, or from slam poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Mar 27 13:29:01 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:29:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stand Up Poetry Message-ID: <35.24428d8f.29d3696d@cs.com> In a message dated 3/27/2002 12:06:36 PM Central Standard Time, Cadaly at aol.com writes: > I personally believe performance poetry is profoundly different from actors > and the comedians who have replaced them reading poems with verve, or from > I recall a friend describing Richard Pryor's Live on the Sunset Strip as the greatest poetry reading he'd ever seen. And he's a poet well-known for his own readings. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Mar 27 13:28:07 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:28:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Poetry vs. Prose In-Reply-To: <4c.8d8caf7.29d36386@cs.com> Message-ID: > Still "prosaic" is generally a term of denigration while "poetic" is used for praise. But "poetic" in quotation marks is a term of denigration, while "prosaic" in quotation marks is not any more than without. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Wed Mar 27 13:33:04 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:33:04 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] re: A Mug's Game Message-ID: <156.b3ff061.29d36a60@aol.com> In a message dated 3/27/02 12:54:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > "Though I insist that the > language of poetry and the language of criticism > cannot differ, in more than degree,I doubt that > we can speak of more than the language of > individual poets and of individual critics. > Strong criticism, like strong poetry, usurps, > and this usurpation always begins with > appropriation of what is then available in the > language. Emerson knew this, what did he not > know?" << > > This reminds me of Aquinas's little joke in > Summa Theologicae: "The appeal to authority is > the weakest sort of argument, according to > Boethius". > Marcus, I wasn't using the Bloom quote to buttress my points so much as answering that recent post asking us all what critics we're reading. But that "appropriation of what is then available in the language" did seem to apply to making poems out of prose, chopped into lines or written in sentences. By the way, the shortest most concise and least restrictive definition I've been able to come up with for a prose poem: A poem that favors the sentence over the line. Or, more humorously, a prose poet: A poet whose Enter/Return key doesn't work. Anyway, here's a quote that bolsters your point about "commonplaces" (which I prefer to read more affirmatively as the traditonal/profound subjects of human existence that tend to recur as a result of life on this planet) being dressed up by poetry, versus what you are terming the "real ideas." "In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as to be understood by everyone, something that no one ever knew before. But in poetry, it's the exact opposite." Paul Dirac [quoted: Mathematical Circles Adieu by H. Eves] Finnegan From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Wed Mar 27 13:48:25 2002 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:48:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: A Mug's Game References: <3CA1C07F.31298.11FC8BC@localhost> Message-ID: <3CA213F8.140983C0@ix.netcom.com> Marcus Bales wrote: I do all of the above. See Tale of the Tribe: Deconstructing the Demiurge in FlashPoint # 5 http://www.flashpointmag.com/. Carlo Parcelli From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Mar 27 14:50:55 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:50:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <156.b3ff061.29d36a60@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CA1DC4F.8282.18C6EC2@localhost> Finnegan: > Anyway, here's a quote that bolsters your point about > "commonplaces" (which I prefer to read more affirmatively > as the traditonal/profound subjects of human existence that tend > to recur as a result of life on this planet) being dressed > up by poetry, versus what you are terming the "real ideas." > > "In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as > to be understood by everyone, something that no one > ever knew before. But in poetry, it's the exact opposite." > Paul Dirac [quoted: Mathematical Circles Adieu by H. Eves] That reminds me of the local restaurant here that honors Dirac's prediction of the anti-particle; their antipasto is Pizza Dirac. marcus at designerglass.com From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Mar 27 15:24:21 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:24:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3CA1DC4F.8282.18C6EC2@localhost> References: <156.b3ff061.29d36a60@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020327151706.00abb380@postoffice.brown.edu> from "An Ordinary Evening in New Haven" xxxi The less legible meanings of sounds, the little reds Not often realized, the lighter words In the heavy drum of speech, the inner men Behind the outer shields, the sheets of music In the strokes of thunder, dead candles at the window When day comes, fire-foams in the motions of the sea, Flickerings from finikin to fine finikin And the general fidget from busts of Constantine To photographs of the late president, Mr. Blank, These are the edgings and inchings of final form, The swarming activities of the formulae Of statement, directly and indirectly getting at, Like an evening evoking the spectrum of violet, A philosopher practicing scales on his piano, A woman writing a note and tearing it up. It is not the premise that reality Is a solid. It may be a shade that traverses A dust, a force that traverses a shade. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Mar 27 17:12:48 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:12:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] re: A Mug's Game Message-ID: <20020327221249.2E2E636F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Mar 27 18:43:21 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 18:43:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Undressing Emily Dickinson Message-ID: <5a.8e44d37.29d3b319@cs.com> This subject seems to be getting as fashionable as all those Georgia O'Keeffe poems of a few years ago. Emily lay back against him, her Salem, her Church, her smooth, white cheek Pressed to his chest, her still lavish chestnut hair. His hand cupping her breast. from "Emily Dickinson in Love," by Susan Wood (Asunder, 2001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Mar 27 19:12:17 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:12:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Protocols Message-ID: <20020328001217.A9A332755@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Mar 27 19:05:41 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:05:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Undressing Emily Dickinson References: <5a.8e44d37.29d3b319@cs.com> Message-ID: <011101c1d5ec$4ea949c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Or a poem I wrote in my youth, "On First Looking Into Starbuck's Keats's Chapman's Homer." Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 6:43 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Undressing Emily Dickinson This subject seems to be getting as fashionable as all those Georgia O'Keeffe poems of a few years ago. Emily lay back against him, her Salem, her Church, her smooth, white cheek Pressed to his chest, her still lavish chestnut hair. His hand cupping her breast. from "Emily Dickinson in Love," by Susan Wood (Asunder, 2001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Mar 27 19:28:18 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:28:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Protocols Message-ID: <20020328002818.C36A636F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Mar 27 19:41:06 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 19:41:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Poetry vs. Prose References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D7B@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <011401c1d5f1$44ace260$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I liked the formulation in Sam's note. I think we have to consider why we care what poetry is, or what the difference is between poetry and prose does. Why are we making these definitions, why are we reading them and arguing about them? I care in two ways, neither of which requires an airtight definition. As a poet: does this help me think about poetry in a way that may be useful to me in thinking about writing? As a teacher: Will this help me to help my students get into poetry? And Roche's formulation seems like one that would help me as a teacher. Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham, David" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 12:55 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Poetry vs. Prose > This is highly evocative but I'm not sure I care for the poetry/prose > duality presented here. Seems to me that the relevant contrast is between > language used in a utilitarian way and language used in a literary way. In > other words, not poetry/prose but literature/functional language. > > Is the best prose necessarily that which is not "dolled up to behave like > poetry"? I sure hope not, both for the sake of well-textured prose, and for > the sake of poetry, which isn't necessarily a game of dress-up. > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ======================================== > > > ---------- > > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 11:11 AM > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry vs. Prose > > > > I always give this bit of wisdom to my poetry-writing classes. > > > > Prose, I mean ordinary expository prose, is transparent language, like a > > pane of glass. Its function is to let meaning through as clearly as > > possible. And the best prose, prose which is not dolled up to behave like > > poetry, does not call attention to itself. Poetry on the other hand is > > like a stained glass window. It is translucent. It lets the light > > through, but the beauty of its design is there for its own sake. > > Prose makes statements, saying what it means. Poetry makes designs, > > showing what it is. Prose might describe what it is like to drink a mug > > of beer. Poetry makes you think that you are actually drinking it. > > Prose says: "The strident sound of small boys' voices." > > Poetry says: "Yes, their voices like wasp stings." > > Prose says: "I am in a deep state of depression." > > Poetry says: "If I were under water I would scarcely kick to come to the > > top." > > Prose says: "It was a lovely calm evening." > > Poetry says: "One faint eternal eventide of gems." > > Prose says: "I feel frustrated, unfulfilled." > > Poetry says: "My life is riding on a flat tire." > > Prose says: "Peppermint oil." > > Poetry says: "You mean oil of peppermint." > > Prose is necessary; poetry is irresistible. > > > > -- Paul Roche > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Mar 27 22:53:04 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 22:53:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Undressing Emily Dickinson In-Reply-To: <011101c1d5ec$4ea949c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <3CA24D50.12211.50224FC@localhost> > Or a poem I wrote in my youth, "On First Looking Into Starbuck's Keats's Chapman's Homer." On First, Looking Into Chapman?s Homer Much have I traveled round the diamond, And many goodly hits and hitters seen; I?ve rounded third and beaten the throw clean At home, and pilfered second like a vagabond. Oft of one big batter have I been fond: Huge-hewed Chapman, batting .416; Yet never did I love his battered mien Until I watched his homer fly beyond The right-field bleachers fence - then I, on first, Looking into Chapman?s homer, watching it climb As if ?twere a new planet as yet unversed In orbits, felt like Shakespeare finding rhyme, Or Herakles, new translated, whose thirst Is quenched with sweet ambrosia the first time. On First Looking into Chapman?s Homer John Keats Much have I traveled in the realms of gold, And many goodly states and kingdoms seen; Round many western islands have I been Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold. Oft of one wide expanse had I been told That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne, Yet did I never breathe its pure serene Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold: Then felt I like some watcher of the skies When a new planet swims into his ken; Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes He stared at the Pacific - and with all his men Looked at each other with a wild surmise - Silent, upon a peak in Darien. Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From khodges at softhome.net Thu Mar 28 02:41:17 2002 From: khodges at softhome.net (Kim Hodges) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:41:17 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stand Up Poetry In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D79@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020327233414.02788210@pop.softhome.net> It sounds like 'stand up poetry' is what anyone trying to 'give a good reading' has been doing -- up to and since the arrival of the hysterics of performance poetry and slams. Surely being clear, amusing, and audible has always distinguished a 'good reading' from a mumbling. >(If you detest the work of Billy Collins and everything he stands for, you >might want to delete this message right now. . . .) Well, I didn't before, but I have to rethink that now after the Emily Dickinson stunt. He should be defrocked. - Kim From khodges at softhome.net Thu Mar 28 02:29:05 2002 From: khodges at softhome.net (Kim Hodges) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:29:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stand Up Poetry In-Reply-To: <3CA13212.35781E32@earthlink.net> References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D79@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020327232824.0279ea00@pop.softhome.net> At 07:44 PM 3/26/02 -0700, you wrote: >Graham, David wrote: > > > (If you detest the work of Billy Collins and everything he stands for, you > > might want to delete this message right now. . . .) > >How could one resist an email with such an opening? But what could Billy >Collins stand for (that wasn't a dead cliche muttered by the rest of humanity >for ages embellished only by Billy's personal rhetoric)? But according to Marcus, this is all there is! - Kim >Has he ever written a >political poem? (I'm not being snarky, I'm just honestly curious and don't >have enough curiosity about Collins to find out myself. I would think of >Lucille Clifton as having a political stance, somehow, or at least political >views, but not Collins. Although that in itself would mean you were standing >for unpolitical poetry, I guess.) > >Moira Russell >Seattle, WA From roger at nenuphar.freeserve.co.uk Thu Mar 28 03:27:36 2002 From: roger at nenuphar.freeserve.co.uk (roger day) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:27:36 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020326075144.00aa8e30@postoffice.brown.edu> <3CA01D44.16653.244040A0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020326084728.00aaa980@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <012701c1d632$6b636730$4170893e@BYRON> but science departs from metaphysics in it's testing *against* reality (or what works) and it's rooting therein - o'wise we'd still be diving around the swamps of the alchemists...the value of "good science" is that not any random/fanciful figuration can make up the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics - but you can pretty much assign anything to god/buddha/take yr pick of whatever religion you fancy. Roger. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Gould" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 13:51 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game > > >Marcus Bales: > >"That they are non-existent apart from being human constructs, with > >perhaps the exception of "fate" which may be just another way to > >talk about the 2nd law of thermodynamics -- but probably not in the > >apparent context of the other notions in which you present it." > > > The 2nd Law is no less a human construct. Charles Peirce, among others, > would argue that they (love, justice, God, and so on) are at least as > "existent" as the formal laws of science. I don't think all scientists > would agree with you on the reduction of universals to non-existence apart > from human formulation. > > Henry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu Mar 28 07:46:39 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 07:46:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <012701c1d632$6b636730$4170893e@BYRON> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020326075144.00aa8e30@postoffice.brown.edu> <3CA01D44.16653.244040A0@localhost> <4.3.2.7.2.20020326084728.00aaa980@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020328073504.00abaaa0@postoffice.brown.edu> At 08:27 AM 3/28/02 +0000, you wrote: >but science departs from metaphysics in it's testing *against* reality (or >what works) and it's rooting therein - o'wise we'd still be diving around >the swamps of the alchemists...the value of "good science" is that not any >random/fanciful figuration can make up the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics - but >you can pretty much assign anything to god/buddha/take yr pick of whatever >religion you fancy. I'm not saying science is the same thing as poetry and religion. I'm saying both science and poetry begin in observation and imaginative discovery, and they proceed by testing previous dogma & paradigms against experience & reality. They're different languages. Marcus Bales seems to be utterly deaf and blind to the intellectual splendor of poetry. He displays the smug ignorance of, say, an engineer cum hobby versifier. Who knows, maybe he can be excused for living in a poetry culture maintained by professional geese & cozening foxes. I was patient with him, slow-witted and cautious as I am. A Yeats or an Eliot would laugh him to scorn. Henry From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Mar 28 08:35:32 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:35:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stand Up Poetry In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20020327233414.02788210@pop.softhome.net> References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D79@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <3CA2D5D4.15121.1BDAD7@localhost> > >(If you detest the work of Billy Collins and everything he stands for, you > >might want to delete this message right now. . . .) Kim: > Well, I didn't before, but I have to rethink that now after the > Emily Dickinson stunt. He should be defrocked. This reminds me of the word game about professional demises If a priest is defrocked and a lawyer is disbarred, then ... A witch is disenchanted or dispelled A podiatrist is defeated A wine taster is deported A nay-sayer is decanted A baseball player debased and so on. A poet is not defrocked, he or she is ... what? decomposed? marcus at designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Mar 28 08:46:23 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:46:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020328073504.00abaaa0@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <012701c1d632$6b636730$4170893e@BYRON> Message-ID: <3CA2D85F.1997.25C906@localhost> Roger Day: > >but science departs from metaphysics in it's testing *against* > >reality (or > >what works) and it's rooting therein - o'wise we'd still be diving around > >the swamps of the alchemists...the value of "good science" is that not any > >random/fanciful figuration can make up the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics - but > >you can pretty much assign anything to god/buddha/take yr pick of whatever > >religion you fancy. Henry Gould: > Marcus Bales seems to be utterly deaf and blind to the intellectual > splendor of poetry. He displays the smug ignorance of, say, an engineer > cum hobby versifier. Who knows, maybe he can be excused for living in a > poetry culture maintained by professional geese & cozening foxes. I was > patient with him, slow-witted and cautious as I am. A Yeats or an Eliot > would laugh him to scorn.<< Ah, the predictable name-calling begins! marcus at designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Mar 28 08:55:30 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:55:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020328073504.00abaaa0@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <012701c1d632$6b636730$4170893e@BYRON> Message-ID: <3CA2DA82.8098.2E2204@localhost> Henry Gould: > I'm not saying science is the same thing as poetry and religion. > I'm saying both science and poetry begin in observation and imaginative > discovery, and they proceed by testing previous dogma & paradigms against > experience & reality. They're different languages.<< I'll agree that poetry and science begin in observation and imaginative discovery, but not that they proceed as you suggest. Science does, but poetry doesn't "proceed" in the sense I think you mean to convey -- it wanders, looking for linguistic coincidences that it then tries to turn into human significances. Sometimes it succeeds, but more often not. marcus at designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Mar 28 09:03:17 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:03:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <012701c1d632$6b636730$4170893e@BYRON> Message-ID: <3CA2DC55.22040.3543BC@localhost> Roger Day: > but science departs from metaphysics in it's testing *against* > reality (or what works) and it's rooting therein - o'wise we'd still be > diving around the swamps of the alchemists...the value of "good > science" is that not any random/fanciful figuration can make up > the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics - but you can pretty much > assign anything to god/buddha/take yr pick of whatever religion > you fancy. Or poem to hear many poets and critics talk. The notion that a poem can mean anything anyone reads into it seems as pernicious as the notion that a poem is anything anyone calls a poem: each claim seems to stretch the notion of "poem" or "poetry" to include so much that the notions are meaningless. Why bother to have different words if one word will do for everything? How can writing a poem evince or require any skill at all, and how can anyone who says that a poem is anything anyone says it is, hold that poets are thinkers of any sort if the bar is set so low? Perhaps Mr Gould would like his Olympic Gold Medal for the 100- yard dash simply FedExed to his home since he may imagine that he won it without going through the bother of training or competing -- because winning the Olympics is, like a poem, anything he says it is? marcus at designerglass.com From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu Mar 28 09:03:16 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:03:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3CA2DA82.8098.2E2204@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020328073504.00abaaa0@postoffice.brown.edu> <012701c1d632$6b636730$4170893e@BYRON> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020328090124.00ad6100@postoffice.brown.edu> Marcus writ: but poetry doesn't "proceed" in the sense I think >you mean to convey -- it wanders, looking for linguistic >coincidences that it then tries to turn into human significances. >Sometimes it succeeds, but more often not. Sounds a lot like science to me, Marcus. Exploring, looking for coincidences & anomalies, occasionally succeeding. But I'm not a scientist. Henry From JforJames at aol.com Thu Mar 28 09:16:45 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:16:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] ENVISIONING THE LIVABLE CITY Message-ID: <132.b71586b.29d47fcd@aol.com> JUNE 15, 2002 deadline - The Minneapolis publisher Milkweed Editions has issued a call to writers for their ENVISIONING THE LIVABLE CITY competition. They want poets and writers to answer a crucial question: "Where and how do urban habitats intersect with and shape our lives, our sense of self and our world?" Milkweed is accepting submissions of fiction, poetry, and creative nonfiction that address the concept of the livable city. Pieces will be selected first for presentation in a special area of the press's World As Home website (www.worldashome.org) and then for a book to be published in summer 2003, tentatively titled "Toward the Livable City." Writers will receive honoraria for each level of publication: $50 for web publication; an additional $500 for pieces selected for the book. Multicultural perspectives are encouraged, from Native American to recent immigrant groups. Send prose works between 1,400 and 7,000 words and/or up to four poems of any length that speak creatively to the issue and/or concept of the livable city to their e-mail address, with the subject line reading "Toward the Livable City." Entries may also be mailed to: Editor, Toward the Livable City, Milkweed Editions, 1011 Washington Ave., South, Suite 300, Minneapolis, MN 55415. No submissions will be returned without an SASE. Writers who submit online will receive an e-mail response. E-mail: editor at milkweed.org Website: www.milkweed.org From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu Mar 28 09:18:54 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:18:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: A Mug's Game Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020328091710.00ad3160@postoffice.brown.edu> Marcus, you yourself set the bar very low when you trivialized what poetry does and is. I never argued that poetry is whatever anybody says it is. I focused on what makes it distinctive in relation to prose on the one hand and rhetoric on the other. Henry ******************************************************** HG afloat: www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Mar 28 09:45:04 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:45:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020328091710.00ad3160@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3CA2E620.2619.5B859F@localhost> Henry Gould: > Marcus, you yourself set the bar very low when you trivialized what poetry > does and is. I compared poetry unfavorably to philosophy and science as thinking. If you like I'll be happy to compare philsophy and science unfavorably to poetry as feeling. This is not a matter of trivializing, it seems to me, but rather of more accurately describing what those who pursue these various endeavors do. > I never argued that poetry is whatever anybody says it is. I focused on > what makes it distinctive in relation to prose on the one hand and rhetoric > on the other.<< Well, perhaps I missed that -- what is it that you say makes it distinctive in relation to prose on the one hand and rhetoric on the other, exactly? It seems to me that you elided rather than addressed that question. marcus at designerglass.com From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 28 09:56:33 2002 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:56:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the anti-poetry of Paul Dirac Message-ID: <3CA32F21.3FFA4085@ix.netcom.com> "In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as > to be understood by everyone, something that no one > ever knew before. But in poetry, it's the exact opposite." > Paul Dirac [quoted: Mathematical Circles Adieu by H. Eves] "Hmmmmmmm.... does this mean that one tries to tell no one, in such a way that it will be understood by no one, nothing that everyone doesn't already know? If so, this would explain a great deal." CP From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu Mar 28 10:18:43 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:18:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: A Mug's Game In-Reply-To: <3CA2E620.2619.5B859F@localhost> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020328091710.00ad3160@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020328100459.00abda30@postoffice.brown.edu> > >I compared poetry unfavorably to philosophy and science as >thinking. If you like I'll be happy to compare philsophy and science >unfavorably to poetry as feeling. This is not a matter of trivializing, >it seems to me, but rather of more accurately describing what >those who pursue these various endeavors do. The dichotomy between thinking and feeling is just one of the shibboleths poetry demolishes - and not by superior feeling, either. I suggest you start with Eliot's essay on this topic & move on to Homer, Shakespeare, Dickinson, Dante, Yeats, Whitman, Goethe. . . compare their conceptual aims and abilities with those of any philosopher or scientist you want to name. > > > I never argued that poetry is whatever anybody says it is. I focused on > > what makes it distinctive in relation to prose on the one hand and > rhetoric > > on the other.<< > >Well, perhaps I missed that -- what is it that you say makes it >distinctive in relation to prose on the one hand and rhetoric on the >other, exactly? It seems to me that you elided rather than >addressed that question. I said that the simplest way that poetry can be distinguished from prose is that poetry crosses & implicates the rhythmic structure of the prose sentence with the rhythm of the line. I said that rhetoric is speech directly aimed at persuading a particular and immediate audience. I said that poetry is a disinterested expression of a vision of reality in its wholeness. Henry ******************************************************** HG afloat: www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 28 10:17:19 2002 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:17:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Better Living Through Alchemy. Message-ID: <3CA333FF.ECC1936@ix.netcom.com> Roger Day wrote: But the 'scientists' were the alchemists. See Albertus Magnus, Roger Bacon, Paracelsus, Francis Bacon, Robert Fludd, Robert Boyle, Isaac Newton. No chemistry without alchemy. Better living through alchemy. CP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpl3 at lehigh.edu Thu Mar 28 10:26:31 2002 From: jpl3 at lehigh.edu (Joe Lucia) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:26:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: A Mug's Game References: <3CA2E620.2619.5B859F@localhost> Message-ID: <3CA33627.85A8BF6@lehigh.edu> Marcus Bales wrote: > > I compared poetry unfavorably to philosophy and science as > thinking. If you like I'll be happy to compare philsophy and science > unfavorably to poetry as feeling. This is not a matter of trivializing, > it seems to me, but rather of more accurately describing what > those who pursue these various endeavors do. But, Marcus, it is also the case that many of use don't accept your descriptions either of poetry or of science as completely accurate. I'm going to deal only with poetry here. That poems don't have extractable hypotheses about the observed world that are susceptible to empirical falsification doesn't make them any less a mode of knowledge or a vehicle for the generation of ideas. Going back to Finnegan's point earlier, you seem to want to subsume all "real" ideas under the rubric of scientific theory. I personally find that poetry can be ideational in the sense that it can test the limits of a given way of imagining the relationship between word and world, say, for instance, in the work of Wallace Stevens or William Bronk. And Williams's Paterson or Olson's Gloucester develop and instantiate complex ideas about the possibilities of human community and the place of imagination therein. They are not simple descriptions, nor are they reducible to commonplaces. Do you know the work of Laura (Riding) Jackson? At least in some degree, her abandonment of poetry for philosophy was driven by a sense that poetry is precisely always trivial to the degree that it is only the dressing up of knowledge rather than its precise and adequate statement. I think that if many of us felt that way about poetry, we'd also give it up. Part of poetry's power -- and I think this is in part where Henry is coming from -- is in the miscibility of thought and emotion within it. A new poetic form, which is at once a cognitive and an emotive vehicle, is as much an idea as a scientific theory, to my way of seeing the world. Where is the paraphrasable commonplace underlying works like Blake's _Four Zoas_, Whitman's _Leaves of Grass_, Zukofsky's _"A"_, Ginsberg's "Howl?" While there are moments in each of these that might be reducible to simple declarations or commonplaces, it is in the overarching architecture of their conception where their significant ideas reside. They are not empirically testable ideas, but they fashion a vision of psychic, social, and poetic economy. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpl3.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 349 bytes Desc: Card for Joe Lucia URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Mar 28 10:33:44 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:33:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the anti-poetry of Paul Dirac References: <3CA32F21.3FFA4085@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <001d01c1d66d$f2f4e6c0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> "In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as to be understood by everyone, something that no one ever knew before. But in poetry, it's the exact opposite." Paul Dirac [quoted: Mathematical Circles Adieu by H. Eves] I say pretty much the same thing: the scientist aims to reduce the mystery of the insufficiently known; the artist to increase the mystery of the excessively known. --Bob G. From gmcvay at patriot.net Thu Mar 28 10:46:59 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:46:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Stand Up Poetry In-Reply-To: <3CA2D5D4.15121.1BDAD7@localhost> Message-ID: I do know that if someone would unscrew the damn fluorescent tube my cubicle at work directly faces, I would be delighted. Old alcoholics get disbarred. Last election, a lot of Floridians got devoted. Old calculus teachers get dysfunctional. Jehovah's Witnesses get distracted. Dian Fossey's gorillas get dismissed. Gwyn (say the last one out loud) From cstroffo at earthlink.net Thu Mar 28 11:17:25 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:17:25 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stand Up Poetry References: Message-ID: <3CA34216.D1CCE8F5@earthlink.net> Hmm....that's de meaning Gwyn McVay wrote: > I do know that if someone would unscrew the damn fluorescent tube my > cubicle at work directly faces, I would be delighted. > > Old alcoholics get disbarred. > Last election, a lot of Floridians got devoted. > Old calculus teachers get dysfunctional. > Jehovah's Witnesses get distracted. > Dian Fossey's gorillas get dismissed. > > Gwyn (say the last one out loud) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From cstroffo at earthlink.net Thu Mar 28 11:18:24 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 08:18:24 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: A Thug's Game References: <3CA2E620.2619.5B859F@localhost> <3CA33627.85A8BF6@lehigh.edu> Message-ID: <3CA34250.D8968D87@earthlink.net> From, introduction to The Telling Laura (Riding) Jackson, "Much of what is called science none but scientists can or ought to talk about: this is an area of special operations, each concerned with a field of specialized knowledge--there can be contiguity between the fields, but no unions of them... Or, to say it differently, in operational science there is room only for specialized knowledge. This is a satisfactory limitation where specialized knowledge is the object. And there would be no more to say if what is called science were operational science, wholly. However, science has for part of it a function of criticism, which it has assumed in the consciousness of its operational success--its progressive self-perfecting within its fields; it turns its face outward towards other forms of intellectual activity, those conducted in a field of general relevance, and transforms itself into an institution of general criticism." Well, she goes on---I don't have time to quote whole her preface here.... Joe Lucia wrote: > Marcus Bales wrote: > > > > I compared poetry unfavorably to philosophy and science as > > thinking. If you like I'll be happy to compare philsophy and science > > unfavorably to poetry as feeling. This is not a matter of trivializing, > > it seems to me, but rather of more accurately describing what > > those who pursue these various endeavors do. > > But, Marcus, it is also the case that many of use don't accept your > descriptions either of poetry or of science as completely accurate. I'm > going to deal only with poetry here. > > That poems don't have extractable hypotheses about the observed world > that are susceptible to empirical falsification doesn't make them any > less a mode of knowledge or a vehicle for the generation of ideas. > Going back to Finnegan's point earlier, you seem to want to subsume all > "real" ideas under the rubric of scientific theory. I personally find > that poetry can be ideational in the sense that it can test the limits > of a given way of imagining the relationship between word and world, > say, for instance, in the work of Wallace Stevens or William Bronk. And > Williams's Paterson or Olson's Gloucester develop and instantiate > complex ideas about the possibilities of human community and the place > of imagination therein. They are not simple descriptions, nor are they > reducible to commonplaces. > > Do you know the work of Laura (Riding) Jackson? At least in some > degree, her abandonment of poetry for philosophy was driven by a sense > that poetry is precisely always trivial to the degree that it is only > the dressing up of knowledge rather than its precise and adequate > statement. I think that if many of us felt that way about poetry, we'd > also give it up. Part of poetry's power -- and I think this is in part > where Henry is coming from -- is in the miscibility of thought and > emotion within it. A new poetic form, which is at once a cognitive and > an emotive vehicle, is as much an idea as a scientific theory, to my way > of seeing the world. Where is the paraphrasable commonplace underlying > works like Blake's _Four Zoas_, Whitman's _Leaves of Grass_, Zukofsky's > _"A"_, Ginsberg's "Howl?" While there are moments in each of these that > might be reducible to simple declarations or commonplaces, it is in the > overarching architecture of their conception where their significant > ideas reside. They are not empirically testable ideas, but they fashion > a vision of psychic, social, and poetic economy. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 28 11:09:03 2002 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:09:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the anti-poetry of Paul Dirac References: <3CA32F21.3FFA4085@ix.netcom.com> <001d01c1d66d$f2f4e6c0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> Message-ID: <3CA3401E.1A50711A@ix.netcom.com> Bob, This seems all predicated on rather a stock reading of science (and poetry). I don't know what to make of it. I will say that the particulars, as I know and understand them, would probably not bear this out. My attempts to good-naturedly demonstrate the historicity of science e.g the Second Law (von Neumann joking with Shannon that entropy is meaningless; Tipler's Resurrection based largely on the Second Law, collapsing at the first glimmer of new data) have not encouraged people to refine their assumptions. Please Note: THIS IS A WHITE FLAG. CP Bob Grumman wrote: > "In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as > to be understood by everyone, something that no one > ever knew before. But in poetry, it's the exact > opposite." > > Paul Dirac [quoted: Mathematical Circles Adieu by H. > Eves] > > I say pretty much the same thing: the scientist aims to > reduce the mystery of the insufficiently known; the artist > to increase the mystery of the excessively known. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jpl3 at lehigh.edu Thu Mar 28 11:53:04 2002 From: jpl3 at lehigh.edu (Joe Lucia) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 11:53:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: A Thug's Game References: <3CA2E620.2619.5B859F@localhost> <3CA33627.85A8BF6@lehigh.edu> <3CA34250.D8968D87@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3CA34A70.35693B0E@lehigh.edu> Thanks, Chris. I was sorta hoping you'd jump in here, as I thought your knowledge of L(R)J, much deeper than my own, might land on something pertinent. Except that L(R)J's comments here support to some degree what I have seen as the derogation of poetry (my own own sad little view) in Marcus's remarks. Science as an instrument of general criticism says, hey, poetry, you don't have any _real_ ideas, since you aren't relentlessly self-perfecting in your field. You just have some nice new clothes. Etc. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpl3.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 349 bytes Desc: Card for Joe Lucia URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Thu Mar 28 12:09:10 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:09:10 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: A Thug's Game References: <3CA2E620.2619.5B859F@localhost> <3CA33627.85A8BF6@lehigh.edu> <3CA34250.D8968D87@earthlink.net> <3CA34A70.35693B0E@lehigh.edu> Message-ID: <3CA34E36.A464ACBC@earthlink.net> Joe--- well, yeah, the later writing seems to say "a plague on both their houses" (specialized poetry and specialized science), but the earlier Riding, like in Contemporaries and Snobs (1928), would side with the possibilities (of poetry) over science...... Joe Lucia wrote: > Thanks, Chris. I was sorta hoping you'd jump in here, as I thought > your knowledge of L(R)J, much deeper than my own, might land on > something pertinent. Except that L(R)J's comments here support to some > degree what I have seen as the derogation of poetry (my own own sad > little view) in Marcus's remarks. Science as an instrument of general > criticism says, hey, poetry, you don't have any _real_ ideas, since you > aren't relentlessly self-perfecting in your field. You just have some > nice new clothes. Etc. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 28 09:44:41 2002 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 09:44:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Better living through alchemy. References: <3CA2DC55.22040.3543BC@localhost> Message-ID: <3CA32C59.E8B4EB35@ix.netcom.com> Roger Day wrote: But the 'scientists' were the alchemists. See Albertus Magnus, Roger Bacon, Paracelsus, Francis Bacon, Robert Fludd, Robert Boyle, Isaac Newton. No chemistry without alchemy. Better living through alchemy. CP -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Thu Mar 28 13:10:15 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:10:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] the anti-poetry of Paul Dirac Message-ID: <152.b4ec530.29d4b687@aol.com> In a message dated 3/28/02 11:16:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: > This seems all predicated on rather a stock reading of science (and > poetry). I don't know what to make of it. I will say that the > particulars, as I know and understand them, would probably not bear > this out. My attempts to good-naturedly demonstrate the historicity of > science e.g the Second Law (von Neumann joking with Shannon that > entropy is meaningless; Tipler's Resurrection based largely on the > Second Law, collapsing at the first glimmer of new data) have not > encouraged people to refine their assumptions. Please Note: THIS IS A > WHITE FLAG. CP > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > "In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as > > to be understood by everyone, something that no one > > ever knew before. But in poetry, it's the exact > > opposite." > > > > Paul Dirac [quoted: Mathematical Circles Adieu by H. > > Eves] > > > > I say pretty much the same thing: the scientist aims to > > reduce the mystery of the insufficiently known; the artist > > to increase the mystery of the excessively known. I'm not as versed as Carlo in the history of science but I do think there is more obfuscation/mystery/trope in the higher echelons of science than we may know. In the more theoretical/pure sciences it may be absolutely necessary for advancing understanding. Always ready with a quote (or at least a paraphrase), wasn't it Niels Bohr who said that "the language of the inside of the atom was the language of poetry." & he also once told a colleague, "Your theory is crazy. But I'm of the opinion that it is not crazy enough to be true." A real-honest-to-god physicist (wave theory), who I happen to know, recently wrote the following in a letter to me-- Imre Lakotas' "Falsification and the Methodology of Scientific Research Programmes" in Criticism and the Growth of Knowledge (CUP 1974).... "The story is about an imaginary case of planetary misbehavior. A physicist of the pre-Einsteinian era takes Newton's mechanics and his law of gravitation, N, the accepted initial conditions, I, and calculates, with their help, the path of the newly discovered small planet, p. But the planet deviates from the calculated path. Does our Newtonian physicist consider that the deviation was forbidden by Newton's theory and that, once established, it refutes the theory N? No. He suggests that there must be a hitherto unknown planet p', which perturbs the path of p. He calculates the mass, orbit, etc. of this hypothetical planet and then asks the experimental astronomer to test his hypothesis. The planet p' is so small that even..." Lakatos is emphasizing the habit of physicists to hold to the theories they know and to explain anomalous observations in terms of additional elements with familiar behavior. In his story he goes on to introduce a dreamt up cloud of dust that obscures the dreamt up planet p'. ---- So who holds more tightly to the known, the scientist or the poet? Finnegan (This discussion has provoked me to renew my subscription to Scientific American) From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 28 13:54:05 2002 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:54:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the anti-poetry of Paul Dirac References: <152.b4ec530.29d4b687@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CA366CD.6BF15D74@ix.netcom.com> Your remarks hit the mark. (Excuse all sloppiness below. I've got to run.) Yes, Niels Bohr who puzzled over the perceptual paradoxes of quantum through the Copenhagen Interpretation e.g. Planck's wave packets changing 'orbits' e.g. energy levels without being anywhere in between, wave particle paradox, position momentum paradox etc. etc. These questions surrounding 'vizualization', as Bohr called it, have ever been addressed though they defy what we call common sense e.g. ways of operating in the world that prevent us from pitching ourselves off a cliff. Dirac's statement more than implies that the "something no one ever knew before" is a material something and that the way it is "known" is through methods of investigation that only deal with the material and failing that reduce everything to the material. He performed this reduction through mathematics and his assumptions are in part derived through his work in quantum; all the more ironic given Bohr's position. But the old material/spiritaul dichotomy seemed to be driving this discussion. And far be it rom me to take the wheel of that magic bus. CP JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/28/02 11:16:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: > > This seems all predicated on rather a stock reading of science (and > > poetry). I don't know what to make of it. I will say that the > > particulars, as I know and understand them, would probably not bear > > this out. My attempts to good-naturedly demonstrate the historicity of > > science e.g the Second Law (von Neumann joking with Shannon that > > entropy is meaningless; Tipler's Resurrection based largely on the > > Second Law, collapsing at the first glimmer of new data) have not > > encouraged people to refine their assumptions. Please Note: THIS IS A > > WHITE FLAG. CP > > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > "In science one tries to tell people, in such a way as > > > to be understood by everyone, something that no one > > > ever knew before. But in poetry, it's the exact > > > opposite." > > > > > > Paul Dirac [quoted: Mathematical Circles Adieu by H. > > > Eves] > > > > > > I say pretty much the same thing: the scientist aims to > > > reduce the mystery of the insufficiently known; the artist > > > to increase the mystery of the excessively known. > > I'm not as versed as Carlo in the history of science but I do think > there is more obfuscation/mystery/trope in the higher echelons of > science than we may know. In the more theoretical/pure sciences > it may be absolutely necessary for advancing understanding. Always > ready with a quote (or at least a paraphrase), wasn't it Niels Bohr who said > that "the language of the inside of the atom was the language of poetry." > & he also once told a colleague, "Your theory is crazy. But I'm of the > opinion that it is not crazy enough to be true." > > A real-honest-to-god physicist (wave theory), who I happen to know, > recently wrote the following in a letter to me-- > > Imre Lakotas' "Falsification and the Methodology of Scientific > Research Programmes" in Criticism and the Growth of Knowledge > (CUP 1974).... > "The story is about an imaginary case of planetary misbehavior. A > physicist of the pre-Einsteinian era takes Newton's mechanics and > his law of gravitation, N, the accepted initial conditions, I, and > calculates, with their help, the path of the newly discovered small > planet, p. But the planet deviates from the calculated path. Does > our Newtonian physicist consider that the deviation was forbidden > by Newton's theory and that, once established, it refutes the theory > N? No. He suggests that there must be a hitherto unknown planet > p', which perturbs the path of p. He calculates the mass, orbit, etc. > of this hypothetical planet and then asks the experimental astronomer > to test his hypothesis. The planet p' is so small that even..." > > Lakatos is emphasizing the habit of physicists to hold to the theories > they know and to explain anomalous observations in terms of > additional elements with familiar behavior. In his story he goes on > to introduce a dreamt up cloud of dust that obscures the dreamt > up planet p'. > > ---- > So who holds more tightly to the known, the scientist or the poet? > Finnegan > (This discussion has provoked me to renew my subscription > to Scientific American) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From sholman at mac.com Thu Mar 28 14:24:48 2002 From: sholman at mac.com (Shannon Holman) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:24:48 -0500 Subject: the black swan [was Re: [New-Poetry] the anti-poetry of Paul Dirac] In-Reply-To: <152.b4ec530.29d4b687@aol.com> Message-ID: on 3/28/02 1:10 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > So who holds more tightly to the known, the scientist or the poet? > Finnegan Adam Gopnik profiles the scientist Karl Popper -- by way of reviewing _Wittgenstein's Poker_ -- in this week's New Yorker. "In the real world, as Popper knew perfectly well, the response of the scientist who has proposed that all swans are white when a black swan appears is not to say, cheerfully, "Wrong again!" It is to say, "You call that a swan?" The principle of falsification would begin an argument rather than prove a point. But the argument was the point. The argument that the black swan would produce--an argument about what evidence was crucial, and why--was different from all other kinds of argument. Science wasn't a form of proof. It was a style of quarrelling. The reason science gave you sure knowledge you could count on was that it wasn't sure and you couldn't count on it. Science wasn't the name for knowledge that had been proved true; it was the name for guesses that could be proved false." Shannon -- Shannon Holman work: 212.545.6089 home: 718.638.1239 sholman at mac.com -- http://www.onemississippi.com From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Mar 28 14:23:39 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:23:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the anti-poetry of Paul Dirac In-Reply-To: <152.b4ec530.29d4b687@aol.com> Message-ID: { So who holds more tightly to the known, the scientist or the poet? { Finnegan Considering Heisenberg's uncertainty and Keats's negative capability, James, it's probably a toss-up. Depends on how you look at it. Hal "The thing to remember is that each time of life has its appropriate rewards, whereas when you're dead it's hard to find the light switch." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Mar 28 14:55:42 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:55:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the black swan References: Message-ID: <004901c1d692$9983b740$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I brought this up before, but let me phrase it more in the form of a question: Why do we want to make these definitions of poetry? What is the value of doing it in our real lives as poets, novelists, scientists, rhetoricians, teachers, what have you? Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shannon Holman" To: Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:24 PM Subject: the black swan [was Re: [New-Poetry] the anti-poetry of PaulDirac] > on 3/28/02 1:10 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > So who holds more tightly to the known, the scientist or the poet? > > Finnegan > > Adam Gopnik profiles the scientist Karl Popper -- by way of reviewing > _Wittgenstein's Poker_ -- in this week's New Yorker. > > > "In the real world, as Popper knew perfectly well, the response of the > scientist who has proposed that all swans are white when a black swan > appears is not to say, cheerfully, "Wrong again!" It is to say, "You call > that a swan?" The principle of falsification would begin an argument rather > than prove a point. But the argument was the point. The argument that the > black swan would produce--an argument about what evidence was crucial, and > why--was different from all other kinds of argument. Science wasn't a form > of proof. It was a style of quarrelling. The reason science gave you sure > knowledge you could count on was that it wasn't sure and you couldn't count > on it. Science wasn't the name for knowledge that had been proved true; it > was the name for guesses that could be proved false." > > > > Shannon > -- > Shannon Holman > work: 212.545.6089 > home: 718.638.1239 > sholman at mac.com > -- > http://www.onemississippi.com > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Mar 28 15:07:46 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:07:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the black swan In-Reply-To: <004901c1d692$9983b740$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: { I brought this up before, but let me phrase it more in the form of a { question: { { Why do we want to make these definitions of poetry? What is the value of { doing it in our real lives as poets, novelists, scientists, rhetoricians, { teachers, what have you? 1. Unacceptable assumption here. 2. X Hal Colourless green ideas sleep furiously. --Noam Chomsky Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JBCM2 at aol.com Thu Mar 28 15:12:32 2002 From: JBCM2 at aol.com (JBCM2 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 15:12:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Blame the lefties! Message-ID: <165.ad76105.29d4d330@aol.com> Spiked Online And then there was postmodernism... by Patrick West If creationism is on the rise in the UK, blame the academic left as much as the religious right. For a generation now, the academic left has been engaged in a war against science as we know it: propagating the notion that science is an inherently Western concept, that it is culturally perspectival, but most of all, after Werner Heisenberg, that it is an imperfect and thoroughly flawed 'discourse'. The general public's distrust of science and scientists in general, whether it be over genetically modified (GM) crops or cloning, is not merely a fad, whipped up by the media. The public's flight into homeopathy, healing crystals and alternative medicine represents a deeper distrust of science, a flight that has been fuelled from the top down by thousands of undergraduate professors who claim that 'science' (inverted commas are mandatory) is but another Western, logocentric discourse that tells us more about who is doing the observing than what is observed. Full text http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/00000006D867.htm From sholman at mac.com Thu Mar 28 16:07:49 2002 From: sholman at mac.com (Shannon Holman) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 16:07:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the black swan In-Reply-To: <004901c1d692$9983b740$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: on 3/28/02 2:55 PM, theoldmole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote: > Why do we want to make these definitions of poetry? 0. An aside: I mentioned to a colleague here in the Information Technology Department that I study poetry. He said, "That's cool. Poetry. Does that have something to do with philosophy?" 1. I want to make definitions of poetry because it seems to help me think better (more broadly, deeply, clearly) and to question my assumptions not just about poetry but about science, philosophy, politics, and ethics. 2. Certainly I define poetry differently in different conversations; my definitions shift and are incomplete. Does this mean that poetry resides in the noumena and I'm stranded over here in the phenomenal? 3. Although it has not yet been proved to my complete satisfaction, I nevertheless believe in an objective reality, a reality that both poets and scientists keep seeking and finding and seeking. To go back to an earlier comment, I believe we react with horror against the actions of the Khmer Rouge precisely _because_ justice has an objective reality bound up with, but not created by, humans. Unfortunately, I no longer quite remember what this has to do with poetry per se. 4. For pleasure. I like white swans, black swans, golden geese, and rabbits (in or out of hats). Shannon -- Shannon Holman work: 212.545.6089 home: 718.638.1239 sholman at mac.com -- http://www.onemississippi.com From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Thu Mar 28 17:59:30 2002 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 16:59:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] the black swan Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D7F@mail.ripon.edu> I'm very interested in posing the question of what a *good* poem is. The question engages me for selfish enough reasons, both as writer and teacher. Defining a poem as distinct from a novel or a coffee cup doesn't much engage me. Genres are fluid over time, and lines drawn in the sand have a tendency to get washed away. I don't denigrate taxonomists, but life is short, and I'm putting my energy elsewhere. And as for the difference between verse and prose, well, as W.H. Auden wrote, that's obvious. If it's written in lines, I'm willing to accept it as a poem, though not necessarily a good one. David Graham ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== > ---------- > From: theoldmole > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 1:55 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the black swan > > I brought this up before, but let me phrase it more in the form of a > question: > > Why do we want to make these definitions of poetry? What is the value of > doing it in our real lives as poets, novelists, scientists, rhetoricians, > teachers, what have you? > > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Mar 28 18:12:22 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 18:12:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the black swan References: <004901c1d692$9983b740$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <001901c1d6ae$04ffa180$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> > I brought this up before, but let me phrase it more in the form of a > question: > > Why do we want to make these definitions of poetry? What is the value of > doing it in our real lives as poets, novelists, scientists, rhetoricians, > teachers, what have you? I do it because I want you to understand what I mean when I use a particular word. But also as a way of learning more about what I'm defining--because knowledge is pleasurable but also can improve craft, as someone else in the discussion recently said. Example, my last mathematical poem satisfied me well enough-- I liked the way it looked (it was in color and included some abstract expressionist elements) and it worked conceptually, in my opinion--and it included music in the form of a few bars of the opening theme of Beethoven's Fifth. I had some misgivings about it, though. Then, thinking about it taxonomically for who knows what reason, I suddenly decided it wasn't a poem, by my standards! As an artist, I couldn't have cared less; as a taxonomist, I was intrigued. I had two texts in it. On was just the word "Freedom." The other was the definition of life, cut out of a pocket dictionary. To me, the cut-out was a collage element whose words identified it (like the name of a store on its front window in a painting) but didn't really do much verbally--and "Freedom" was just a label. I may leave the thing as is but thinking about its not being verbal has given me some possibly good ideas about boosting its verbal content. I think have a thorough rigorous definition of an art-form gives an artist an easy way to see if he's got as many elements as he can have in a piece; moreover, if he's less suggestible than one would think most poets are from their remarks about not wanting to be boxed in by definition, such a definition can tell him what's NOT in his kind of pieces that he might add to it. --Bob G. From DICK at watson.ibm.com Thu Mar 28 18:09:01 2002 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 02 18:09:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] prose or poetry Message-ID: <200203282313.g2SNDXM34934@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com> I really like Bob G's formulation: it seems exactly right to me. >>I say pretty much the same thing: the scientist aims to >>reduce the mystery of the insufficiently known; the artist >>to increase the mystery of the excessively known. >> >> --Bob G. From DICK at watson.ibm.com Thu Mar 28 18:15:52 2002 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 02 18:15:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's game Message-ID: <200203282317.g2SNHVM32078@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com> Henry Gould: > Marcus Bales seems to be utterly deaf and blind to the intellectual > splendor of poetry. He displays the smug ignorance of, say, an engineer > cum hobby versifier. Who knows, maybe he can be excused for living in a > poetry culture maintained by professional geese & cozening foxes. I was > patient with him, slow-witted and cautious as I am. A Yeats or an Eliot > would laugh him to scorn.<< Who's being smug here??? Richard From JforJames at aol.com Thu Mar 28 20:26:21 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 20:26:21 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] An Ammons Tribute? Message-ID: <183.5e4f52e.29d51cbd@aol.com> Relevant to our recent topic, I opened the AWP Writer's Chronicle to find this horrifying caption re Ammons' poetry written by David Lehman-- "In each case the resolution achieved works in direct proportion to the amount of energy released in the poem, as if, in Ammons's adaptation of Einstein, energy equals anxiety transformed into matterless motion multiplied by the speed of light squared." This is the worst a critic (or a poet) can do with science; to pay scant attention to underlying concept and to sloppily introduce the theory/law into a passage of crit (or poetry) merely for effect. Ammons knew his science and I don't believe in his poetry he ever showed this kind of disrespect for the source material. Finnegan From khodges at softhome.net Thu Mar 28 22:33:48 2002 From: khodges at softhome.net (Kim Hodges) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:33:48 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stand Up Poetry In-Reply-To: <3CA2D5D4.15121.1BDAD7@localhost> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20020327233414.02788210@pop.softhome.net> <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D79@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20020328192924.026ed670@pop.softhome.net> At 08:35 AM 3/28/02 -0500, you wrote: > > >(If you detest the work of Billy Collins and everything he stands for, you > > >might want to delete this message right now. . . .) > >Kim: > > Well, I didn't before, but I have to rethink that now after the > > Emily Dickinson stunt. He should be defrocked. > >This reminds me of the word game about professional demises > >If a priest is defrocked and a lawyer is disbarred, then ... > >A witch is disenchanted or dispelled >A podiatrist is defeated >A wine taster is deported >A nay-sayer is decanted >A baseball player debased > >and so on. > >A poet is not defrocked, he or she is ... what? decomposed? deconstructed, I suppose. But 'defrocked' has the additional point of making you think about priests, which makes interesting parallels at present to the crime in mind. Considering your argument about poetic meaning related to finding accidental occurrences of language, you should appreciate that. >marcus at designerglass.com Kim From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Mar 28 22:44:32 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:44:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] the black swan Message-ID: <96.240d6a74.29d53d20@cs.com> In a message dated 3/28/2002 5:00:40 PM Central Standard Time, GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU writes: > If it's written in lines, I'm willing to accept it > as a poem, though not necessarily a good one. > > Verse, you mean, since poems can also be written in prose. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Fri Mar 29 08:02:49 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:02:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's game In-Reply-To: <200203282317.g2SNHVM32078@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020329074527.00abd4a0@postoffice.brown.edu> Richard wrote: At 06:15 PM 3/28/02 -0500, you wrote: >Henry Gould: > > Marcus Bales seems to be utterly deaf and blind to the intellectual > > splendor of poetry. He displays the smug ignorance of, say, an engineer > > cum hobby versifier. Who knows, maybe he can be excused for living in a > > poetry culture maintained by professional geese & cozening foxes. I was > > patient with him, slow-witted and cautious as I am. A Yeats or an Eliot > > would laugh him to scorn.<< > >Who's being smug here??? As you please. Marcus Bales could learn something from me. But then, a lot of poets themselves learn dutifully not to ask too much of it. Careers are built on varieties of pleasing irrelevance & sound sleep. Henry >Richard > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Fri Mar 29 10:47:30 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:47:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] the black swan Message-ID: <200203291546.g2TFkmW62733@mx2.mx.voyager.net> Fair enough. I guess I tend to avoid using the word "verse" in this context in casual talk, since many listeners seem to assume it means metrical verse rather than poetry-written-in-lines. I also tend to resist the use of "poetry" as an honorific, since that seems to lead into even murkier definitional waters. Auden's ruminations on these matters might be worth looking at: ____________________ The difference between verse and prose is self-evident, but it is a sheer waste of time to look for a definition of the difference between poetry and prose. Frost's definition of poetry as the untranslatable element in language looks plausible at first sight but, on closer examination, will not quite do. In the first place, even in the most rarefied poetry, there are some elements which are translatable. The sound of the words, their rhythmical relations, and all meanings and association of meanings which depend upon sound, like rhymes and puns, are, of course, untranslatable, but poetry is not, like music, pure sound. Any elements in a poem which are not based on verbal experience are, to some degree, translatable into another tongue, for example, images, similes and metaphors which are drawn from sensory experience. Moreover, because one characteristic that all men, whatever their culture, have in common is uniqueness--every man is a member of a class of one -- the unique perspective on the world which every genuine poet has survives translation. If one takes a poem by Goethe and a poem by Holderlin and makes literal prose cribs of them, every reader will recognize that the two poems were written by two different people. In the second place, if speech can never become music, neither can it ever become algebra. Even in the most 'prosy' language, in informative and technical prose, there is a personal element because language is a personal creation. Ne pas se pencher au dehors has a different feeling tone from Nichthinauslehnen. A purely poetic language would be unlearnable, a purely prosaic not worth learning. --W. H. Auden. fr. "Writing." *The Dyer's Hand*. _______________ ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ---------- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the black swan Date: Thu, Mar 28, 2002, 9:44 PM In a message dated 3/28/2002 5:00:40 PM Central Standard Time, GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU writes: If it's written in lines, I'm willing to accept it as a poem, though not necessarily a good one. Verse, you mean, since poems can also be written in prose. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Mar 29 14:36:24 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:36:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the black swan References: <200203291546.g2TFkmW62733@mx2.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <003001c1d759$03ba80a0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> the black swanGah, you pulled me back in, David--as I see someone's pulled you back in. Auden: >The difference between verse and prose is self-evident, >but it is a sheer waste of time to look for a definition >of the difference between poetry and prose. Of what use, then, are the words, "poetry" and "prose"? And why does Auden go on to talk as if there were a difference? I suppose because "poetry" is something just too ethereally whoopsie wah wah for mere mortals to define. An effect rather than an arrangement of words? But somehow we can still discuss it. I'll stop here. I really just want to record a nay to Auden. As for Frost, he's absolutely right, but as a subjective poet giving a take on one aspect of poetry, not as a serious literary taxonomist. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Fri Mar 29 14:46:33 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:46:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the black swan In-Reply-To: <003001c1d759$03ba80a0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> References: <200203291546.g2TFkmW62733@mx2.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020329144543.00ace440@postoffice.brown.edu> Prose is the infantry, poetry the air force. (courtesy of Joseph Brodsky) Henry From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Mar 29 17:52:27 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:52:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Mug's game In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020329074527.00abd4a0@postoffice.brown.edu> References: <200203282317.g2SNHVM32078@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <3CA4A9DB.13845.29D281@localhost> > >Henry Gould: > > > Marcus Bales seems to be utterly deaf and blind to the intellectual > > > splendor of poetry. He displays the smug ignorance of, say, an engineer > > > cum hobby versifier. Who knows, maybe he can be excused for living in a > > > poetry culture maintained by professional geese & cozening foxes. I was > > > patient with him, slow-witted and cautious as I am. A Yeats or an Eliot > > > would laugh him to scorn.<< > Richard wrote: > >Who's being smug here??? Henry wrote: > As you please. Marcus Bales could learn something from me. But then, a > lot of poets themselves learn dutifully not to ask too much of it. Careers > are built on varieties of pleasing irrelevance & sound sleep. Whew! Just so long as Henry Gould has nothing to learn from anyone else! marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From Poetup at aol.com Thu Mar 28 21:26:34 2002 From: Poetup at aol.com (Poetup at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:26:34 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky, Simic vs Schwartz,the ASSP, Harvard, et al. Message-ID: <9c.1d64c4e8.29d52ada@aol.com> So, Pinsky and Vendler have finally come out & taken a position on the ASSAP controversy. Strange bedfellows--Mark Strand and Charles Bernstein, don't you think? What does the list make of this? In the academy a kind of academic hegemony has emerged, obviously: Watten, Dove, Chehelski, Graham. But is the *new* Aestheticism really so new? Check out Schwartz's critique in WHITEBOX. Also, Ashbery backtracks on the SOUpos. **The signifier is signally significant.*** Or not? J.A.'s good enough for me. But how come the NY Times pays so much attention to Jeff Darger and Wendy Pascal? Is the ASSAP the reason? Alex Suvlova From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Mar 29 18:28:21 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:28:21 -0500 Subject: the black swan [was Re: [New-Poetry] the anti-poetry of Paul Dirac] In-Reply-To: References: <152.b4ec530.29d4b687@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CA4B245.12618.4AB54D@localhost> > "In the real world, as Popper knew perfectly well, the response of the > scientist who has proposed that all swans are white when a black swan > appears is not to say, cheerfully, "Wrong again!" It is to say, "You call > that a swan?"<< Bah. What of Frege's response to Russell's pointing out the flaw in his fifth axiom? > The principle of falsification would begin an argument rather > than prove a point. But the argument was the point. The argument that the > black swan would produce--an argument about what evidence was crucial, and > why--was different from all other kinds of argument. Science wasn't a form > of proof. It was a style of quarrelling. The reason science gave you sure > knowledge you could count on was that it wasn't sure and you couldn't count > on it. Science wasn't the name for knowledge that had been proved true; it > was the name for guesses that could be proved false."<< Both verification and falsification are tools scientists use to test their hypotheses. While there is of course always the all-too- human urge to dismiss others' criticisms of one's own work just because they are criticisms and one has worked hard and carefully, the notion of science is that it isn't a matter of working hard and diligently, it's a matter of either verifying or of not being able to falsify the claims made. It is, for example, the very notion of working hard at something like poetry that seems to torque the jaws of the editors on this list when Lyn Lifshin does it. The reason not to publish a poet's work is because they send you too many poems? What kind of reason is that? The reason not to publish a poet's work is because you think it isn't worthy on whatever the merits of poetry are by which you evaluate poetry -- but that there is too much of it seems a particularly obnoxious reason. There is a greater supply of poems than there is a demand for them at almost every time -- why object to a surfeit of poems by one person -- unless the reason is that that person sends in a lot of bad poems. But the warrants offered so far don't seem to be that Ms Lifshin's poems are bad, but that there are a lot of them. What's with that? I read her bio on her site. She claims to have been "praised by Robert Frost." Frost died in 1963. How old is Ms Lifshin? When did she either correspond with him or when was her first poem that he was likely to have seen published? Under what circumstances was she praised by Robert Frost? Those might be interesting questions to raise if one were going to try to hang something on her. But to merely object to her fecundity without objecting to the quality of that blossoming seems peculiar at best. marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From JforJames at aol.com Fri Mar 29 18:35:39 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:35:39 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] An Egyptian Poet Message-ID: <92.2399567e.29d6544b@aol.com> Hope From 'Poet of the People' Wed Mar 20, 1:43 PM ET By RAWYA RAGEH, Associated Press Writer CAIRO, Egypt - Ahmed Fouad Negm has been a house servant, a postal worker, a laborer in a British army camp, even a felon. And more than three decades ago, at the age of 40, he discovered his calling. Ever since, he has conveyed the consciousness of his beloved Egypt through his poetry. He writes in colloquial Egyptian Arabic, not the classical Arabic usually associated with poetry. And his down-to-earth language and folk metaphors have drawn him close to common Egyptians, many of whom know him because his poetry has been transformed into popular songs. He is known as "Poet of the People." "I am not a humble person and I am not stupid; I know I am a poet that has affected his nation," Negm says, his reedy voice roughened by years of smoking. He was born in 1929 in a village northeast of Cairo and named Ahmed Fouad after Egypt's king at the time. His destitute mother sent Negm and his brother to an orphanage after her husband died. He had little formal education. "My intellect is that of an Egyptian peasant. It was my illiterate mother who made my intellect ? she was a reservoir of folk literature and heritage," he says. As a young man, he served time in prison for forgery. He seemed destined for a life of jail and menial labor. Then came the 1967 Mideast war, in which Israel captured Egypt's Sinai Peninsula. Egypt did not regain its territory until a 1979 peace treaty with Israel. Soon after, Negm was inspired to turn the shock and humiliation of his countrymen into poetry: "Oh how amazing, our officers have returned from the front line, "Life is just great so long as his excellency and entourage are fine, "Don't Sinai-me or Sinai-me-not, "So what if a whole nation is humiliated or lost?" A frequent target of the poet's sharp pen was late Egyptian President Gamal Abdul Nasser. Negm saw Nasser as undemocratic and held him responsible for the loss of Sinai, the West Bank and Golan Heights. Negm spent 1968-1971 in prison fulfilling Nasser's vow that the poet "won't leave detention except over my dead body." Nasser died in 1970 and Negm was released shortly after Anwar Sadat took office. Sadat pledged to shut down all detention centers and release all political prisoners. However, he, too, would be angered by Negm, who bitterly criticized Sadat's peace treaty with Israel. Sadat had Negm tried before a military court for "insulting the president" in 1978. He was sentenced to one year in prison. "I am not against peace," Negm says. "I knew that this individual peace would not be fruitful ? I wanted the whole nation and region to make peace." Negm remains an outspoken government critic, decrying the lack of democracy under President Hosni Mubarak (news - web sites), a former air force pilot who has held power since Sadat's assassination in 1981. "This is not a civil society we are living in," Negm says. "It is all about the military that does not want to leave power. When the military clings to power in any Arab or Third World nation, it never leaves it. ... When a president remains in power for 20 years ... where is the democracy they are alleging?" Negm has been dubbed a communist, a radical, an anarchist. He refuses to be labeled, but says he admires Egypt's communists because they have proven that they love their country. His reputation as a man of the people who can't be bought has never been undermined ? even three years ago, when a wealthy admirer threw him a birthday party at a luxury hotel. Negm's lifestyle epitomizes his character. He has had five wives over the years. His white hair flowing, he invariably appears in public in a white gallabiya, or robe, the costume of the Egyptian peasant and urban laborer. He spends most of his time on the roof of his apartment building, in one of the shacks that dot downtown Cairo's high rises and are usually the homes of doormen, maids or squatters. "No one can co-opt or seduce me, because I want nothing ? I have all I want here," Negm said. His former quarters in the Hosh Adam neighborhood ? known as a nest of drug addicts and dissidents ? collapsed after an earthquake (news - web sites) in the early 1990s. It was in Hosh Adam that he met a blind folk singer named Sheik Imam Eissa. Sheikh Imam became Negm's partner, setting his poetry to music and singing it. Before Sheik Imam's death in 1995, the two were rarely separated except when held in solitary prison cells. Their song, "Egypt, Our Glowing Mother," became so popular in the 1960s and '70s that it was almost made a national anthem: "Egypt, our glowing mother, "Dressed in a scarf and a gallabiya, "Time has aged, while you're still young, "It has gone, but you have just begun." From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Mar 29 20:06:45 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:06:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky, Simic vs Schwartz,the ASSP, Harvard, et al. References: <9c.1d64c4e8.29d52ada@aol.com> Message-ID: <001a01c1d787$29e95980$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> This sounds comic. What's it all about? I tried to find WHITEBOX but didn't get to any site having anything to do with poetry. Also, I haven't any idea what ASSAP is. --Bob G. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 9:26 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky, Simic vs Schwartz,the ASSP, Harvard, et al. > So, Pinsky and Vendler have finally come out & taken a position on the ASSAP > controversy. Strange bedfellows--Mark Strand and Charles Bernstein, don't > you think? What does the list make of this? In the academy a kind of > academic hegemony has emerged, obviously: Watten, Dove, Chehelski, Graham. > But is the *new* Aestheticism really so new? Check out Schwartz's critique > in WHITEBOX. Also, Ashbery backtracks on the SOUpos. **The signifier is > signally significant.*** Or not? J.A.'s good enough for me. But how come > the NY Times pays so much attention to Jeff Darger and Wendy Pascal? Is the > ASSAP the reason? > > Alex Suvlova > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Mar 29 20:17:39 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:17:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the black swan In-Reply-To: References: <004901c1d692$9983b740$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <3CA4CBE3.8381.EC0F48E@localhost> > ... Certainly I define poetry differently in different conversations; my > definitions shift and are incomplete. Does this mean that poetry resides in > the noumena and I'm stranded over here in the phenomenal?<< No, it seems as if it's more likely that you're searching the noumena for something that is over here in the phenomenal. > ... To go back to an earlier > comment, I believe we react with horror against the actions of the Khmer > Rouge precisely _because_ justice has an objective reality bound up with, > but not created by, humans. Unfortunately, I no longer quite remember what > this has to do with poetry per se.<< I think we react with horror at the actions of the Khmer Rouge because they offend our notions of human justice, but not because they offend some notion of justice in objective reality. It seems as if it's the reaction "with horror" that persuades you that there is "objective justice". Is that right? If so, why is a horrified reaction any more evidence for the existince of "objective justice" than for "human-created justice"? Today in Cleveland a female falcon that was banded in Pittsburgh, and has been hanging around the Terminal Tower site of a breeding pair of falcons that has lived here for the last ten years, killed the Cleveland female falcon. The Cleveland male falcon is brooding the eggs she left. Is this just? Is it injust? Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From JforJames at aol.com Fri Mar 29 21:21:22 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:21:22 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Lifshin Message-ID: <196.49325eb.29d67b22@aol.com> In a message dated 3/29/02 6:26:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: << But to merely object to her fecundity without objecting to the quality of that blossoming seems peculiar at best. >> You're right, Marcus, the output shouldn't be the sole criterion for rejection. However, having seen those thick packets of poems, often several overstuffed envelopes within the same mail bag, and the pages of typescript within that had, clearly, shall we say, been thru the mill, I always wondered why she thought it was the poor editor's job to do the work of discrimination and culling for her. The small-minded editorial department was me and another guy in his basement. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Fri Mar 29 22:27:45 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 22:27:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] the black swan Message-ID: In a message dated 3/29/02 2:47:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes: << Prose is the infantry, poetry the air force. (courtesy of Joseph Brodsky) >> This statement is exemplary of what David Graham called "the use of 'poetry' as an honorific." So many times poets seem to forget Proust, Faulkner, Broch, etc.; not to mention the plain prose stylists whose fitful flights on leaden wings are no less poetic. Hint to the clueless: poetry exists, exists even in the trenches. Finnegan From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Mar 29 23:21:57 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:21:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Michael Palmer. "Notes for Echo Lake 3" Message-ID: Notes for Echo Lake 3 Words that come in smoke and go. Some things he kept, some he kept and lost. He loved the French poets fell through the partly open door. And I as it is, I as the one but less than one in it. I was the blue against red and a voice that emptied, and I is that one with broken back. While April is ours and dark, as something always stands for what is: dying elm, headless man, winter-- salamander, chrysalis, fire-- grammar and silence. Or grammar against silence. Years later they found themselves talking in a crowd. Her white cat had been killed in the woods behind her house. It had been a good possibly even a terrible winter. Ice had coated the limbs of the hawthorn and lilac, lovely but dangerous. Travel plans had been made then of necessity abandoned. At different times entire weeks had seemed to disappear. She wondered what initially they had agreed not to discuss. Some things he kept while some he kept apart. As Robert's call on Tuesday asking whether I knew that Zukofsky had died a couple of days before. The call came as I was reading a copy of Larry Rivers' talk at Frank O'Hara's funeral (July, 1966), "He was a quarter larger than usual. Every few inches there was some sewing composed of dark thread. Some stitching was straight and three or four inches long, others were longer and semi-circular . . ." As Robert's call on Tuesday a quarter larger than usual asking whether I knew whether I knew. Blue thread every few inches, straight and semi- circular, and sand and wet snow. Blue snow a couple of days before. Whether I know whatever I know. The letters of the words of our legs and arms. What he had seen or thought he'd seen within the eye, voices overheard rising and falling. And if each conversation has no end, then composition is a placing beside or with and is endless, broken threads of cloud driven from the west by afternoon wind. The letters of the words of our legs and arms. In the garden he dreamt he saw four bearded men and listened to them discussing metaphor. They are standing at the points of the compass. They are standing at the points of the compass and saying nothing. They are sitting in the shade of a flowering tree. She is holding the child's body out toward the camera. She is standing before the mirror and asking. She is offering and asking. He-she is asking me a question I can't quite hear. Evenings they would walk along the shore of the lake. Letters of the world. Bright orange poppy next to white rose next to blue spike of larkspur and so on. Artichoke crowding garlic and sage. Hyssop, marjoram, orange mint, winter and summer savory, oregano, trailing rosemary, fuchsia, Dutch iris, day lily, lamb's tongue, lamb's ears, blackberry, feverfew, lemon verbena, sorrel, costmary, never reads it as it is, "poet living tomb of his/games." Eyes eyeing what self never there, as things in metaphor cross, are thrown across, a path he calls the path of names. In the film *La Jete'e* she is thrown against time and is marking time: sun burns thru the roars dear eyes, *all eyes*, pageant bay inlet, garden casuarina, spittle-spawn (not laurel) nameless we name it, and sorrows dissolve--human In silence he would mark time listening for whispered words. I began this in spring, head ready to burst, flowers, reddening sky, moon with a lobster, New York, Boston, return, thin coating of ice, moon while dogs bark, moon dogs bark at, now it's late fall. And now he told me it's time to talk. Words would come in smoke and go, inventing the letters of the voyage, would walk through melting snow to the corner store for cigarettes, oranges and a newspaper, returning by a different route past red brick townhouses built at the end of the Civil War. Or was the question in the letters themselves, in how by chance the words were spelled. In the poem he learns to turn and turn, and prose seems always a sentence long. --Michael Palmer Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com Sat Mar 30 06:22:06 2002 From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:22:06 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky, Simic vs Schwartz,the ASSP, Harvard, et al. Message-ID: I don't understand this at all... Can it be translated? >From: Poetup at aol.com >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky, Simic vs Schwartz,the ASSP, Harvard, et al. >Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:26:34 EST > >So, Pinsky and Vendler have finally come out & taken a position on the >ASSAP >controversy. Strange bedfellows--Mark Strand and Charles Bernstein, don't >you think? What does the list make of this? In the academy a kind of >academic hegemony has emerged, obviously: Watten, Dove, Chehelski, Graham. >But is the *new* Aestheticism really so new? Check out Schwartz's critique >in WHITEBOX. Also, Ashbery backtracks on the SOUpos. **The signifier is >signally significant.*** Or not? J.A.'s good enough for me. But how come >the NY Times pays so much attention to Jeff Darger and Wendy Pascal? Is >the >ASSAP the reason? > >Alex Suvlova >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Mar 30 07:31:43 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:31:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the black swan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3CA569DF.26532.112A2C0E@localhost> > << Prose is the infantry, poetry the air force. (courtesy of Joseph Brodsky) Finnegan: > This statement is exemplary of what David Graham > called "the use of 'poetry' as an honorific." So many > times poets seem to forget Proust, Faulkner, Broch, > etc.; not to mention the plain prose stylists whose > fitful flights on leaden wings are no less poetic.<< But you contradict yourself explicitly here: you object to the use of "poetic" as an honorific and then use it so. Which is it, Mr Finnegan? If the fitful flights on leaden wings of plain prose stylists are "poetic" don't you necessarily mean that as an honorific? Isn't it praise of the plain prose style to call it "poetic"? And if it is, on what grounds, then, do you object to the use of "poetic" as an honorific, since you use it thus yourself? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Mar 30 07:31:43 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:31:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lifshin In-Reply-To: <196.49325eb.29d67b22@aol.com> Message-ID: <3CA569DF.7702.112A2BF4@localhost> Finnegan: > ... However, having seen those thick packets of poems, > often several overstuffed envelopes within the same mail bag, > and the pages of typescript within that had, clearly, shall we say, > been thru the mill, I always wondered why she thought it was the > poor editor's job to do the work of discrimination and culling for > her.<< Isn't that precisely what the editor sets him- or herself up to claim to be able to do? Do editors merely publish all that they receive, indiscriminately? If so, it would seem that there would be much more published than there is. But if editors do not publish all they receive, then they must cull, or discriminate, on some basis or other. They could just throw the mail down the stairs and publish only the contents of the envelopes that travel the greatest -- or the least -- distance, I suppose, or mark of the middle stairs and publish only the contents of the envelopes that land on them. Since you say you sent rejection notices to Ms Lifshin, I have to infer that you did not publish everything you received, but instead made a selection from among what you received. Further, since your objection to Ms Lifshin's submissions seems to be the volume, and physical condition, of the paper she sent, and not the quality of her work, I have to infer the explicit standard by which Ms Lifshin's work seems to have been judged appears to have been the volume, and the condition, of the paper she sent, according to your own account. Finnegan: > The small-minded editorial department was me and another guy > in his basement.<< If I understand this correctly, the justification for an editor rejecting writers' work on the basis of volume or condition of paper, or both, is the time the editors have available? One imagines on that basis that the writer is advised never to write novels or epics or anything else that thickens up the mail bag, but always to write very short poems, and not too many of them, and always on pristine paper -- and hope the post office doesn't damage the medium in transmission. It's enlightening to get these insights into the editorial process. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Mar 30 07:32:42 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:32:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky, Simic vs Schwartz,the ASSP, Harvard, et al. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { I don't understand this at all... { Can it be translated? It could, Bob, but the poetry of it would be lost in the process. And understanding ain't all it's cracked up to be. Hal "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg." --Samuel Butler Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { { { >From: Poetup at aol.com { >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky, Simic vs Schwartz,the ASSP, Harvard, et al. { >Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:26:34 EST { > { >So, Pinsky and Vendler have finally come out & taken a position on the { >ASSAP { >controversy. Strange bedfellows--Mark Strand and Charles Bernstein, don't { >you think? What does the list make of this? In the academy a kind of { >academic hegemony has emerged, obviously: Watten, Dove, Chehelski, Graham. { >But is the *new* Aestheticism really so new? Check out Schwartz's critique { >in WHITEBOX. Also, Ashbery backtracks on the SOUpos. **The signifier is { >signally significant.*** Or not? J.A.'s good enough for me. But how come { >the NY Times pays so much attention to Jeff Darger and Wendy Pascal? Is { >the { >ASSAP the reason? { > { >Alex Suvlova { >_______________________________________________ { >New-Poetry mailing list { >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { { { { { _________________________________________________________________ { Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Mar 30 07:51:38 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:51:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the black swan References: Message-ID: <001a01c1d7e9$a2627d80$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> > This statement is exemplary of what David Graham > called "the use of 'poetry' as an honorific." So many > times poets seem to forget Proust, Faulkner, Broch, > etc.; not to mention the plain prose stylists whose > fitful flights on leaden wings are no less poetic. > Hint to the clueless: poetry exists, exists even in > the trenches. Right, and water exists, even in bricks. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Sat Mar 30 08:03:50 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:03:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: the black swan In-Reply-To: References: <004901c1d692$9983b740$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <3CA57166.27092.1147952E@localhost> > ... I mentioned to a colleague here in the Information Technology > Department that I study poetry. He said, "That's cool. Poetry. Does that > have something to do with philosophy?"<< And if he says he studies Boolean logic, and a person ignorant of Information Technology says "That's cool. Boolean. Does that have something to do with sports?" the ignorant person's assessment of "Boolean" as "bowling" is something worthwhile? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Mar 30 08:10:45 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:10:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Michael Palmer. "Notes for Echo Lake 3" References: Message-ID: <002901c1d7ec$4de39a20$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> My spontaneously philistine problem with the Palmer "poem" is that it seems to me that any articulate, intelligent, reasonably sensitive person able to surrender to free association could write something as good. How many poems whose intention is to skirt some issue resonantly can one read without getting bored? How many poems whose intention is to skirt some issue resonantly and talk about skirting it can one read without getting bored? The part I liked best was my misreading of the last "words come in smoke and go"--I read "go" as a noun. I liked some of the quiet meditation but found the splashy surrealisms too overt, the ambiguity too capitalized, and the portentousnesses too obvious (like the woman's killed white cat). --Bob G. > Notes for Echo Lake 3 > > Words that come in smoke and go. > > Some things he kept, some he kept and lost. He loved the French poets > fell through the partly open door. > > And I as it is, I as the one but less than one in it. I was the blue against > red and a voice that emptied, and I is that one with broken back. > > While April is ours and dark, as something always stands for > what is: dying elm, headless man, winter-- > salamander, chrysalis, > fire-- > grammar and silence. > > Or grammar against silence. Years later they found themselves talking > in a crowd. Her white cat had been killed in the woods behind her > house. It had been a good possibly even a terrible winter. Ice had coated > the limbs of the hawthorn and lilac, lovely but dangerous. Travel plans > had been made then of necessity abandoned. At different times entire > weeks had seemed to disappear. She wondered what initially they had > agreed not to discuss. > > Some things he kept while some he kept apart. > > As Robert's call on Tuesday asking whether I knew that Zukofsky had > died a couple of days before. The call came as I was reading a copy of > Larry Rivers' talk at Frank O'Hara's funeral (July, 1966), "He was a > quarter larger than usual. Every few inches there was some sewing > composed of dark thread. Some stitching was straight and three > or four inches long, others were longer and semi-circular . . ." > > As Robert's call on Tuesday a quarter larger than usual asking whether I > knew whether I knew. Blue thread every few inches, straight and semi- > circular, and sand and wet snow. Blue snow a couple of days before. > Whether I know whatever I know. > > The letters of the words of our legs and arms. What he had seen or > thought he'd seen within the eye, voices overheard rising and falling. > And if each conversation has no end, then composition is a placing > beside or with and is endless, broken threads of cloud driven from the > west by afternoon wind. > > The letters of the words of our legs and arms. In the garden he dreamt > he saw four bearded men and listened to them discussing metaphor. > They are standing at the points of the compass. They are standing at the > points of the compass and saying nothing. They are sitting in the shade > of a flowering tree. She is holding the child's body out toward the > camera. She is standing before the mirror and asking. She is offering > and asking. He-she is asking me a question I can't quite hear. Evenings > they would walk along the shore of the lake. > > Letters of the world. Bright orange poppy next to white rose next to > blue spike of larkspur and so on. Artichoke crowding garlic and sage. > Hyssop, marjoram, orange mint, winter and summer savory, oregano, > trailing rosemary, fuchsia, Dutch iris, day lily, lamb's tongue, lamb's > ears, blackberry, feverfew, lemon verbena, sorrel, costmary, never reads > it as it is, "poet living tomb of his/games." > > Eyes eyeing what self never there, as things in metaphor cross, are > thrown across, a path he calls the path of names. In the > film *La Jete'e* she is thrown against time and is marking time: > > sun burns thru the roars > dear eyes, *all eyes*, pageant > bay inlet, garden casuarina, spittle-spawn > (not laurel) nameless we name > it, and sorrows dissolve--human > > In silence he would mark time listening for whispered words. I began > this in spring, head ready to burst, flowers, reddening sky, moon with a > lobster, New York, Boston, return, thin coating of ice, moon while > dogs bark, moon dogs bark at, now it's late fall. > > And now he told me it's time to talk. > > Words would come in smoke and go, inventing the letters of the > voyage, would walk through melting snow to the corner store for > cigarettes, oranges and a newspaper, returning by a different route past > red brick townhouses built at the end of the Civil War. Or was the > question in the letters themselves, in how by chance the words were > spelled. > > In the poem he learns to turn and turn, and prose seems always > a sentence long. > > --Michael Palmer From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com Sat Mar 30 09:48:07 2002 From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 14:48:07 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky, Simic vs Schwartz,the ASSP, Harvard, et al. Message-ID: Thanks Hal, I guess I was trying to read it at "rhetoric" and not as "poetry" my mistake... like easter eggs, I guess, which also ain't all they're cracked up to be... Bob >From: "Halvard Johnson" >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Pinsky, Simic vs Schwartz,the ASSP, Harvard, et >al. >Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 07:32:42 -0500 > > >{ I don't understand this at all... >{ Can it be translated? > >It could, Bob, but the poetry of it would be lost >in the process. And understanding ain't all it's >cracked up to be. > >Hal "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg." > --Samuel Butler >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >{ >{ >{ >From: Poetup at aol.com >{ >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >{ >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >{ >Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky, Simic vs Schwartz,the ASSP, Harvard, >et al. >{ >Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:26:34 EST >{ > >{ >So, Pinsky and Vendler have finally come out & taken a position on >the >{ >ASSAP >{ >controversy. Strange bedfellows--Mark Strand and Charles Bernstein, >don't >{ >you think? What does the list make of this? In the academy a kind >of >{ >academic hegemony has emerged, obviously: Watten, Dove, Chehelski, >Graham. >{ >But is the *new* Aestheticism really so new? Check out Schwartz's >critique >{ >in WHITEBOX. Also, Ashbery backtracks on the SOUpos. **The >signifier is >{ >signally significant.*** Or not? J.A.'s good enough for me. But >how come >{ >the NY Times pays so much attention to Jeff Darger and Wendy Pascal? >Is >{ >the >{ >ASSAP the reason? >{ > >{ >Alex Suvlova >{ >_______________________________________________ >{ >New-Poetry mailing list >{ >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >{ >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >{ >{ >{ >{ >{ _________________________________________________________________ >{ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. >{ >{ _______________________________________________ >{ New-Poetry mailing list >{ New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >{ http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From JforJames at aol.com Sat Mar 30 11:20:09 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:20:09 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] the black swan Message-ID: <5f.24f8412f.29d73fb9@aol.com> In a message dated 3/30/02 7:24:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: << do you object to the use of "poetic" as an honorific, since you use it thus yourself? >> No, I'm saying that poets, when making "the distinction" between poetry and prose, often dress the latter in olive drab and cast it in a role of plodding forward toward a certain objective. Poets like to glamorize their language and their project at the expense of plain ol' prose. And, even we ignore the recognizably poetic prose stylists, like the few I mentioned, the fact is that the "poetic" moment/impluse often resides in most plain spoken prose. Finnegan From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Mar 30 11:30:46 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:30:46 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic vs Schwartz,the ASSP, Harvard, et al. References: Message-ID: <3CA5E835.EC62C95B@earthlink.net> AND Where is BILLIE when you need her/him? Halvard Johnson wrote: > { I don't understand this at all... > { Can it be translated? > > It could, Bob, but the poetry of it would be lost > in the process. And understanding ain't all it's > cracked up to be. > > Hal "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg." > --Samuel Butler > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > { > { > { >From: Poetup at aol.com > { >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { >Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky, Simic vs Schwartz,the ASSP, Harvard, et al. > { >Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:26:34 EST > { > > { >So, Pinsky and Vendler have finally come out & taken a position on the > { >ASSAP > { >controversy. Strange bedfellows--Mark Strand and Charles Bernstein, don't > { >you think? What does the list make of this? In the academy a kind of > { >academic hegemony has emerged, obviously: Watten, Dove, Chehelski, Graham. > { >But is the *new* Aestheticism really so new? Check out Schwartz's critique > { >in WHITEBOX. Also, Ashbery backtracks on the SOUpos. **The signifier is > { >signally significant.*** Or not? J.A.'s good enough for me. But how come > { >the NY Times pays so much attention to Jeff Darger and Wendy Pascal? Is > { >the > { >ASSAP the reason? > { > > { >Alex Suvlova > { >_______________________________________________ > { >New-Poetry mailing list > { >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > { > { > { > { > { _________________________________________________________________ > { Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > { > { _______________________________________________ > { New-Poetry mailing list > { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Mar 30 11:46:24 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:46:24 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Michael Palmer. "Notes for Echo Lake 3" References: <002901c1d7ec$4de39a20$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> Message-ID: <3CA5EBDF.720495C4@earthlink.net> AND "GO" as a noun! Yeah, kind of like "blow" Also BG, all its literary allusions!---ugh! (not that I'm categorically against allusions, just when they seem used for snob-purposes) Robert (presumably Duncan---the "great" Robert) Duncan.... as if Palmer's saying "I got literary pedigree, na na na na na na...... Duncan's passed the torch to me, and maybe he wouldn'a have had I not ANGLICIZED my name......." Bob Grumman wrote: > My spontaneously philistine problem with the Palmer > "poem" is that it seems to me that any articulate, > intelligent, reasonably sensitive person able to > surrender to free association could write something > as good. > > How many poems whose intention is to skirt some > issue resonantly can one read without getting bored? > > How many poems whose intention is to skirt some > issue resonantly and talk about skirting it can one read without getting > bored? > > The part I liked best was my misreading of the last > "words come in smoke and go"--I read "go" as a > noun. > > I liked some of the quiet meditation but found the > splashy surrealisms too overt, the ambiguity too > capitalized, and the portentousnesses too obvious (like > the woman's killed white cat). > > --Bob G. > > > Notes for Echo Lake 3 > > > > Words that come in smoke and go. > > > > Some things he kept, some he kept and lost. He loved the French poets > > fell through the partly open door. > > > > And I as it is, I as the one but less than one in it. I was the blue > against > > red and a voice that emptied, and I is that one with broken back. > > > > While April is ours and dark, as something always stands for > > what is: dying elm, headless man, winter-- > > salamander, > chrysalis, > > fire-- > > grammar and silence. > > > > Or grammar against silence. Years later they found themselves talking > > in a crowd. Her white cat had been killed in the woods behind her > > house. It had been a good possibly even a terrible winter. Ice had coated > > the limbs of the hawthorn and lilac, lovely but dangerous. Travel plans > > had been made then of necessity abandoned. At different times entire > > weeks had seemed to disappear. She wondered what initially they had > > agreed not to discuss. > > > > Some things he kept while some he kept apart. > > > > As Robert's call on Tuesday asking whether I knew that Zukofsky had > > died a couple of days before. The call came as I was reading a copy of > > Larry Rivers' talk at Frank O'Hara's funeral (July, 1966), "He was a > > quarter larger than usual. Every few inches there was some sewing > > composed of dark thread. Some stitching was straight and three > > or four inches long, others were longer and semi-circular . . ." > > > > As Robert's call on Tuesday a quarter larger than usual asking whether I > > knew whether I knew. Blue thread every few inches, straight and semi- > > circular, and sand and wet snow. Blue snow a couple of days before. > > Whether I know whatever I know. > > > > The letters of the words of our legs and arms. What he had seen or > > thought he'd seen within the eye, voices overheard rising and falling. > > And if each conversation has no end, then composition is a placing > > beside or with and is endless, broken threads of cloud driven from the > > west by afternoon wind. > > > > The letters of the words of our legs and arms. In the garden he dreamt > > he saw four bearded men and listened to them discussing metaphor. > > They are standing at the points of the compass. They are standing at the > > points of the compass and saying nothing. They are sitting in the shade > > of a flowering tree. She is holding the child's body out toward the > > camera. She is standing before the mirror and asking. She is offering > > and asking. He-she is asking me a question I can't quite hear. Evenings > > they would walk along the shore of the lake. > > > > Letters of the world. Bright orange poppy next to white rose next to > > blue spike of larkspur and so on. Artichoke crowding garlic and sage. > > Hyssop, marjoram, orange mint, winter and summer savory, oregano, > > trailing rosemary, fuchsia, Dutch iris, day lily, lamb's tongue, lamb's > > ears, blackberry, feverfew, lemon verbena, sorrel, costmary, never reads > > it as it is, "poet living tomb of his/games." > > > > Eyes eyeing what self never there, as things in metaphor cross, are > > thrown across, a path he calls the path of names. In the > > film *La Jete'e* she is thrown against time and is marking time: > > > > sun burns thru the roars > > dear eyes, *all eyes*, pageant > > bay inlet, garden casuarina, spittle-spawn > > (not laurel) nameless we name > > it, and sorrows dissolve--human > > > > In silence he would mark time listening for whispered words. I began > > this in spring, head ready to burst, flowers, reddening sky, moon with a > > lobster, New York, Boston, return, thin coating of ice, moon while > > dogs bark, moon dogs bark at, now it's late fall. > > > > And now he told me it's time to talk. > > > > Words would come in smoke and go, inventing the letters of the > > voyage, would walk through melting snow to the corner store for > > cigarettes, oranges and a newspaper, returning by a different route past > > red brick townhouses built at the end of the Civil War. Or was the > > question in the letters themselves, in how by chance the words were > > spelled. > > > > In the poem he learns to turn and turn, and prose seems always > > a sentence long. > > > > --Michael Palmer > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Sat Mar 30 11:45:51 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:45:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] two poets, no waiting Message-ID: <116.ed19d8f.29d745bf@aol.com> Wanted for the Pingry School (New Jersey) Writers' Festival, next Friday, that is, er, this coming Friday. The demand turns out to be greater than the supplied, so if you're in the New York City/New Jersey area, happen to be a splendid poet, happen to have at least one published (and in-print) book, and happen to be free Friday, April 5th from about 9:20 am till 3:30 pm, please let me know back-channel. You get to read, you get to lead a workshop, you get to tell anecdotes and answer embarrassing questions, you get to have lunch, you get to read again, you get to sign and sell books, and you get half a thousand dollars into the bargain. The Pingry School is in beautiful, bucolic, Martinsville, New Jersey. http://www.pingry.k12.nj.us/about/directions.shtml -- for directions. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Mar 30 11:55:24 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:55:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Lifshin Message-ID: <11f.e317099.29d747fc@aol.com> Marcus, obviously editors discriminate. However, they have, or at least I had, the expectation that no poet would be sending every last piece of material that he/she had typed up. I expected... or rather hoped, as editor of an almost insignificant litmag I couldn't expect only top-drawer work...that the poet would send a "select subset" of his/her available unpublished output. Editors are people with prejudices, & I had mine: I didn't like to get 3 or 4 overstuffed envelopes of manhandled typescript, that appeared to be little more than mass-produced lyric flights of fancy, in each PO Box collection. For me, less would have been more; and meant more attention. Finnegan PS: Of course the throw-all against-the-wall-&-see-if-any-of-it-sticks submission strategy worked to some extent; Lifshin's got to be the most published small litmag poet in history. (Before you say anything, Marcus, I have no evidence for this bald assertion. The Guiness Book of World Records makes no reference to her literary feat, that I know of.) In a message dated 3/30/02 7:24:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: << Finnegan: > ... However, having seen those thick packets of poems, > often several overstuffed envelopes within the same mail bag, > and the pages of typescript within that had, clearly, shall we say, > been thru the mill, I always wondered why she thought it was the > poor editor's job to do the work of discrimination and culling for > her.<< Isn't that precisely what the editor sets him- or herself up to claim to be able to do? Do editors merely publish all that they receive, indiscriminately? If so, it would seem that there would be much more published than there is. But if editors do not publish all they receive, then they must cull, or discriminate, on some basis or other. They could just throw the mail down the stairs and publish only the contents of the envelopes that travel the greatest -- or the least -- distance, I suppose, or mark of the middle stairs and publish only the contents of the envelopes that land on them. Since you say you sent rejection notices to Ms Lifshin, I have to infer that you did not publish everything you received, but instead made a selection from among what you received. Further, since your objection to Ms Lifshin's submissions seems to be the volume, and physical condition, of the paper she sent, and not the quality of her work, I have to infer the explicit standard by which Ms Lifshin's work seems to have been judged appears to have been the volume, and the condition, of the paper she sent, according to your own account. Finnegan: > The small-minded editorial department was me and another guy > in his basement.<< If I understand this correctly, the justification for an editor rejecting writers' work on the basis of volume or condition of paper, or both, is the time the editors have available? One imagines on that basis that the writer is advised never to write novels or epics or anything else that thickens up the mail bag, but always to write very short poems, and not too many of them, and always on pristine paper -- and hope the post office doesn't damage the medium in transmission. It's enlightening to get these insights into the editorial process. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely >> From Arielpf123 at aol.com Sat Mar 30 12:03:00 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:03:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] two poets, no waiting Message-ID: <111.fd07b5e.29d749c4@aol.com> In a message dated 3/30/02 11:46:10 AM, FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: << You get to read, you get to lead a workshop, you get to tell anecdotes and answer embarrassing questions, you get to have lunch, you get to read again, you get to sign and sell books, and you get half a thousand dollars into the bargain. >> What a great deal! WIsh I was free! patf From Arielpf123 at aol.com Sat Mar 30 12:07:23 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:07:23 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Lifshin Message-ID: <59.195fdfb1.29d74acb@aol.com> In a message dated 3/30/02 11:56:51 AM, JforJames at aol.com writes: << ... However, having seen those thick packets of poems, > often several overstuffed envelopes within the same mail bag, > and the pages of typescript within that had, clearly, shall we say, > been thru the mill, >> Been thinking. Her postage bills and hours spent recordkeeping must be truly awful. patf From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Sat Mar 30 12:09:21 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:09:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lifshin Message-ID: <200203301708.g2UH8l792417@mx12.mx.voyager.net> My career as an online poetry editor was brief & undistinguished, and I never received any submissions from Lyn Lifshin. But practically every editor of a print magazine I have ever met has a Lifshin story. She's famous for her relentlessness and her volume, and she's so far outside the norm in both respects that she's hardly someone to build any sort of "case" around. During my time editing poetry for *Blue Moon Review*, though, I did encounter more than a couple poets who--until forcefully discouraged-- would send several submissions *per day*. Politeness soon wears thin in such cases. Perhaps the editors among us would regale us with a few tales from the front lines. Every editor I know has a few choice ones. David Graham ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== ---------- >From: JforJames at aol.com >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Lifshin >Date: Sat, Mar 30, 2002, 10:55 AM > >Marcus, obviously editors discriminate. However, they have, or at >least I had, the expectation that no poet would be sending every >last piece of material that he/she had typed up. I expected... >or rather hoped, as editor of an almost insignificant litmag I couldn't >expect only top-drawer work...that the poet would send a "select subset" >of his/her available unpublished output. Editors are people with >prejudices, & I had mine: I didn't like to get 3 or 4 overstuffed >envelopes of manhandled typescript, that appeared to be little more >than mass-produced lyric flights of fancy, in each PO Box collection. >For me, less would have been more; and meant more attention. >Finnegan >PS: Of course the throw-all against-the-wall-&-see-if-any-of-it-sticks >submission strategy worked to some extent; Lifshin's got to be the most >published small litmag poet in history. (Before you say anything, Marcus, >I have no evidence for this bald assertion. The Guiness Book of World >Records makes no reference to her literary feat, that I know of.) > From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Sat Mar 30 12:14:31 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:14:31 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Lifshin Message-ID: In a message dated 3/30/2002 11:56:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > The Guiness Book of World > Records makes no reference to her literary feat, that I know of Though I understand she has submitted there as well. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Sat Mar 30 12:47:08 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:47:08 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Slush Pile Tales Message-ID: <200203301745.g2UHj7r47653@mx13.mx.voyager.net> Well, I'll share one tidbit from the editorial trenches. A minor pleasure in making one's way through the slush pile would be the cover notes, some of which are far more interesting than the submissions. Here's an excerpt from one of my favorites: ________________________________ Dear Mr.David Graham, I know by going to the web-site of BLUE MOON REVIEW that you are having wonderful and permeable poetic mind to enjoy the poetry.Poetry is mind- -chiselling.Some times poets may miss to sense the sculpture which you get it in the figure exactly.Iam also sending my poem . . . to your enjoyment and please get it published in the B.M.R Thanking you, Yours Sincerely _____________________________ Here's to permeable poetic minds wherever they are, David Graham ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Sat Mar 30 13:02:20 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry_Gould at brown.edu) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 13:02:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the black swan Message-ID: <200203301759.g2UHxvQ28936@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Let me put the Brodsky quote in a little perspective. He wasn't making a serious pronunciamento. He mentioned it in the course of a memoir, and was describing the mutual feeling among a group of young poets that they were doing something special. (When I mentioned it to a professor of Slavic languages, he said, "Well, look at Nabokov's command of English. Maybe Brodsky should have served some time in the infantry.") Everybody knows that prose & poetry influence each other, that prose can be "poetic" (& not just in the honorific sense), that many fine poets have sought to import the virtues of prose into poetry, etc. It was asked, though (perhaps with exasperation?), why do we make these efforts at definition & distinctions? I agree that it can get awfully prosaic & pedantic, that we murder to dissect every day. And yet I come down on Bob G's & Marcus' side on this one. There's something productive in the homemade efforts at general criticism: they aim to establish a field of conversation where shared perceptions of artistic values & achievements can be recognized. If you read, say, the critical essays of John Berryman from mid-century, you see what a confidence in this kind of shared field of discussion can do - it lights up areas of continuity and purpose with a fairly disinterested critical eye & heart. Whether the wacko marginal world of internet list gab can approach that, or only produce a twisted parody of it, I don't know. Serious workers write essays, us kibbitzers just mouth off. Yet I see something of value anyway in these amateur efforts to say things anew, to define what poetry has been & might be with an approximation (is it an illusion?) of accuracy. Poetry is not the same as prose; it's something far, far different. Henry Finnegan wrote: > No, I'm saying that poets, when making "the distinction" > between poetry and prose, often dress the latter > in olive drab and cast it in a role of plodding forward > toward a certain objective. > Poets like to glamorize their language and their > project at the expense of plain ol' prose. And, > even we ignore the recognizably poetic prose > stylists, like the few I mentioned, the fact is > that the "poetic" moment/impluse often resides in > most plain spoken prose. > From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Mar 30 13:32:30 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:32:30 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lifshin References: <200203301708.g2UH8l792417@mx12.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3CA604BE.8EEF7161@earthlink.net> A long time ago, when I was editing Porch, I survived a Lifshin onslaught. It was obvious from the much-handled, many-folded manuscripts that she recycled them quickly, sending them out elsewhere as soon as they were rejected. But that was 20+ years ago and she was, well, pretty raw. Her stuff arrived with the weekly 100+ submissions, the most memorable of which was a series of submissions from a guy whose postmark indicate he was getting closer and closer geographically with each submission and rejection. Finally, one envelope, smelling as they all did of patchouli, arrived from Oracle, which is between here and Tucson. But this one had a new gimmick: He'd cut a little window in the envelope so that the stamp on the s.a.s.e. was the one that was cancelled, thus ruling out a rejection by post. Nothing even close to that in the e-mail submissions to SRR. So far, everyone has been polite, and even encouraging when they're rejected. Probably because this media makes it easy for me to at least offer minimal comments, which I do to all but those I'd rather not hear from again for at least a decade, or until they've mastered the craft to some degree. - Jim David Graham wrote: > > My career as an online poetry editor was brief & undistinguished, and I > never received any submissions from Lyn Lifshin. But practically every > editor of a print magazine I have ever met has a Lifshin story. She's > famous for her relentlessness and her volume, and she's so far outside the > norm in both respects that she's hardly someone to build any sort of "case" > around. > > During my time editing poetry for *Blue Moon Review*, though, I did > encounter more than a couple poets who--until forcefully discouraged-- would > send several submissions *per day*. Politeness soon wears thin in such > cases. > > Perhaps the editors among us would regale us with a few tales from the front > lines. Every editor I know has a few choice ones. > > David Graham > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html > Poetry Library: > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html > ======================================== > > ---------- > >From: JforJames at aol.com > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Lifshin > >Date: Sat, Mar 30, 2002, 10:55 AM > > > > >Marcus, obviously editors discriminate. However, they have, or at > >least I had, the expectation that no poet would be sending every > >last piece of material that he/she had typed up. I expected... > >or rather hoped, as editor of an almost insignificant litmag I couldn't > >expect only top-drawer work...that the poet would send a "select subset" > >of his/her available unpublished output. Editors are people with > >prejudices, & I had mine: I didn't like to get 3 or 4 overstuffed > >envelopes of manhandled typescript, that appeared to be little more > >than mass-produced lyric flights of fancy, in each PO Box collection. > >For me, less would have been more; and meant more attention. > >Finnegan > >PS: Of course the throw-all against-the-wall-&-see-if-any-of-it-sticks > >submission strategy worked to some extent; Lifshin's got to be the most > >published small litmag poet in history. (Before you say anything, Marcus, > >I have no evidence for this bald assertion. The Guiness Book of World > >Records makes no reference to her literary feat, that I know of.) > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Sat Mar 30 21:34:25 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 20:34:25 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Easter Morning Message-ID: <200203310233.g2V2Xqq50649@mx18.mx.voyager.net> Easter Morning I have a life that did not become, that turned aside and stopped, astonished: I hold it in me like a pregnancy or as on my lap a child not to grow or grow old but dwell on it is to his grave I most frequently return and return to ask what is wrong, what was wrong, to see it all by the light of a different necessity but the grave will not heal and the child, stirring, must share my grave with me, an old man having gotten by on what was left when I go back to my home country in these fresh far-away days, it's convenient to visit everybody, aunts and uncles, those who used to say, look how he's shooting up, and the trinket aunts who always had a little something in their pocketbooks, cinnamon bark or a penny or nickel, and uncles who were the rumored fathers of cousins who whispered of them as of great, if troubled, presences, and school teachers, just about everybody older (and some younger) collected in one place waiting, particularly, but not for me, mother and father there, too, and others close, close as burrowing under skin, all in the graveyard assembled, done for, the world they used to wield, have trouble and joy in, gone the child in me that could not become was not ready for others to go, to go on into change, blessings and horrors, but stands there by the road where the mishap occurred, crying out for help, come and fix this or we can't get by, but the great ones who were to return, they could not or did not hear and went on in a flurry and now, I say in the graveyard, here lies the flurry, now it can't come back with help or helpful asides, now we all buy the bitter incompletions, pick up the knots of horror, silently raving, and go on crashing into empty ends not completions, not rondures the fullness has come into and spent itself from I stand on the stump of a child, whether myself or my little brother who died, and yell as far as I can, I cannot leave this place, for for me it is the dearest and the worst, it is life nearest to life which is life lost: it is my place where I must stand and fail, calling attention with tears to the branches not lofting boughs into space, to the barren air that holds the world that was my world though the incompletions (& completions) burn out standing in the flash high-burn momentary structure of ash, still it is a picture-book, letter-perfect Easter morning: I have been for a walk: the wind is tranquil: the brook works without flashing in an abundant tranquility: the birds are lively with voice: I saw something I had never seen before: two great birds, maybe eagles, blackwinged, whitenecked and -headed, came from the south oaring the great wings steadily; they went directly over me, high up, and kept on due north: but then one bird, the one behind, veered a little to the left and the other bird kept on seeming not to notice for a minute: the first began to circle as if looking for something, coasting, resting its wings on the down side of some of the circles: the other bird came back and they both circled, looking perhaps for a draft; they turned a few more times, possibly rising--at least, clearly resting? then flew on falling into distance till they broke across the local bush and trees: it was a sight of bountiful majesty and integrity: the having patterns and routes, breaking from them to explore other patterns or better ways to routes, and then the return: a dance sacred as the sap in the trees, permanent in its descriptions as the ripples round the brook's ripplestone: fresh as this particular flood of burn breaking across us now from the sun. --A. R. Ammons ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From aburack at mail.slc.edu Sun Mar 31 11:42:18 2002 From: aburack at mail.slc.edu (Alexandra Burack) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 11:42:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Editors' Stories References: <200203301708.g2UH8l792417@mx12.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <005901c1d8d3$06594fa0$8e0653c6@bzln101> Hi Folks, I couldn't resist David Graham's exhortation to share stories. From daisyf1 at juno.com Sun Mar 31 11:58:02 2002 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 11:58:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #735 - 9 msgs Message-ID: <20020331.115803.-75909.5.daisyf1@juno.com> > * Those born after, say, 1967 cannot be expected to have learned > grammar, > syntax, or spelling in school. Ha! Agism! I (b. 1967) spell much better than my husband (b. well-pre-1967). Cheers, Daisy Fried From daisyf1 at juno.com Sun Mar 31 12:16:54 2002 From: daisyf1 at juno.com (Daisy Fried) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 12:16:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #736 - 1 msg Message-ID: <20020331.121654.-75909.7.daisyf1@juno.com> > Message: 1 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 11:58:02 -0500 > From: Daisy Fried > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #735 - 9 msgs > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > * Those born after, say, 1967 cannot be expected to have learned > > grammar, > > syntax, or spelling in school. > > Ha! Agism! I (b. 1967) spell much better than my husband (b. > well-pre-1967). > > Cheers, > Daisy Fried Hee hee: David Graham informs me, backchannel, that in fact the correct spelling of that there word is "ageism" not "agism." To which I reply, yeah, wull, my hubsand woulda spelt it rong two. Dasiy. ; ) From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sun Mar 31 13:26:18 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 10:26:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Editors' Stories Message-ID: <20020331182618.3703B36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Mar 31 16:21:51 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 16:21:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Editors' Stories In-Reply-To: <20020331182618.3703B36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: One of my favorite exhortations from editors calling for submissions is "Send your best work only." Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Mar 31 17:04:42 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 17:04:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Editors' Stories References: Message-ID: <016901c1d900$111e2460$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> HOW I BECAME THE GREATEST POET IN THE WORLD HOW I BECAME RULER OF THE WORLD It was easy. --unfinished poem by Mark Strand It was easy, the goose in the bottle. Easier than to justify, or I would have done it sooner. It was only to get girls, and afterwards I discovered old lovers kill themselves more often than old virgins, so I chose a reductive innocence, crusty in my intactness. I withdrew to commence a series of lawsuits against certain publications which had, at one time, or more than once, rejected my work. They all wanted it now, that same stepchild opus. And why were those editors who made such a point?? elaborate enclosure letters do not impress us; the poem must stand on its own merits?? suddenly writing me? I knew what they didn't: old words fare worse than old celibates: their juices bubble and ooze till their pores are glazed; they mummify in their own secretions. Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 4:21 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Editors' Stories > One of my favorite exhortations from editors calling > for submissions is "Send your best work only." > > Hal Serving the tri-state area. > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From TerryP17 at aol.com Sun Mar 31 18:04:54 2002 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:04:54 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lifshin Message-ID: <156.b81558c.29d8f016@aol.com> All-- Even Edge City Review has been honored by submissions from Lyn Lifshin on at least two occasions. Lyn obviously never read our guidelines--or misunderstood them if she did read them. Her stuff was free verse, which we reject about 99% of the time, and, as other correspondents have indicated, was pretty dog-eared as well. What was kind of sad was that around this time, the Washington Post actually did an article on her in the Style section--turns out that, although she wanders a good bit, she was ensconced at the time in Vienna, VA, just a few miles from my home. The Post was kind, but what emerged was the fairly sad life of a woman who was actually trying, and to some extent succeeding, in making a living only by writing poetry and giving (paid) readings. According to the piece, she'd made a bit of a splash in the 1960s, but had faded fast, and the writer did indicate that part of this was due to the depressingly huge amount of stuff she was sending out and alienating editors with. Astonishingly, she was still working a 1960s schtick in her readings, still, at an age certainly 50+, wearing long, ironed hair and attired in black leather miniskirts. I never heard from her again after I sent back two batches of poems with instructions to sin no more with free verse. It is just sort of sad. She is caught in a time warp. There have been others. England is particularly fun. We have occasionally gotten, and even published, weird little ditties from a guy who lives near York and insists on being known as "John, the Bearded Bard." A truly depressing case is English poet Peter Russell, now in his 80s, and once a friend of Ezra Pound. In the 1950s, Russell was a well-known modernist in England, although he did somehow accomplish being a modernist primarily in form. He later relocated to the Italian countryside, continuing to write poetry while sinking into poverty. He lived in an abandoned mill along with a priceless collection of Russian icons and many, many signed Pound manuscripts and memorabilia. The mill caught fire a few years ago, and all--all--was lost. Russell now carpet bombs editors with stuff that he sends over and over without regard to what was sent to whom, leading to copyright nightmares, and the stuff is of deteriorating quality. Like Lifshin, he produces warehouses full of work, and, although he is arguably an important poet, no scholar will ever have the heart to catalogue this stuff when he is gone, and I am afraid he'll be forgotten. And then, of course, there's the garbage you get over the net where the submitters expect an answer in five minutes or less, plus a contract. Those stories are for another time. I enjoy being a writer and editor quite a lot, but there are really some days when it's unbearably sad to see the miserable stuff that comes in--all of it with hopes and dreams hanging in the balance. One wonders who taught these people, if anyone, or how they were inspired. --Terry Ponick From JforJames at aol.com Sun Mar 31 19:56:10 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:56:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Plath's last journals turn up Message-ID: Saw a note about this on PoetryEtc List...more fuel for the fire... http://www.sylviaplathforum.com/docs/lost-journals.html