From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Jul 1 07:56:43 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 07:56:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: [Cafe-Blue] Poems by Others: Miraslav Holub, "A Small Town in the Sonora Desert" Message-ID: Goddamn typas--may they rot in hell or Arizona, whichever comes first. Hal { Subject: Re: [Cafe-Blue] Poems by Others: Miraslav Holub, "A Small Town { in the Sonora Desert" { { { This Miraslav has been around and *seen*. It is true that in the { Sonoran landscape, reality and meta-reality change places in the rhythm { of strobe lights: one with/one's self as parenthetical. { { - Jim { { { Halvard Johnson wrote: { > { > A Small Town in the Sonora Desert { > { > Walkmen on their ears, { > saguaros come down the mountains, { > too many walkmen. { > { > The mucous membrane of civilization { > grows rampant on every corner: { > too many menstruations { > and a single pregnancy. { > Moreover, the immature fetus { > had a mouse { > in the fourth brain ventricle. { > It happened at night, { > when with walkmen on their ears, { > saguaros came down the mountains. { > { > Too many saguaros: { > in the morning we admitted everything { > except ourselves. { > { > --Miraslav Holub, fr. *Vanishing Lung Syndrome* { > [trans. David Young and Dana Habava] { > { > (this one posted especially for Jim C.) { > { > Hal { > { > Halvard Johnson { > =============== { > email: halvard at earthlink.net { > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Jul 1 14:38:40 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:38:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] babelfishing In-Reply-To: <87.1d98a3cf.2a50fd28@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D206970.19734.A368B0@localhost> > Gary Sullivan suggested a very interesting exercise in selecting a > conventional poem, typing > it into my word processor, then cutting and pasting the poem into Babelfish > (a translating service). > Then I was to command the text to be translated from English into German, > then from German into > French, and then from French back into English, using the result as the > source of a poem. I have to say that I love the notion that anything, anything at all, is a poem! Here's one titled Quotation 00-1024. By the way, if any of the editors on this list are looking for just a ton of poems, I have thousands and thousands of these -- just ask, I don't charge for them at all! Marcus QUOTATION 00-1024 24 October 2000 1 Service Call Remove loose silicon Re-silicon silicon dam at bottom of door where door abuts stationary panels replace door hardware $ 155.00 Terms: 50% on approval, balance on delivery or installation. Please circle the options required, sign and date below, and return one signed copy with your deposit. Please keep one copy for your records. ________________________ _____________ Approved Date Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From Cadaly at aol.com Mon Jul 1 15:43:26 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:43:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] babelfishing Message-ID: <17.2a880bfa.2a520ade@aol.com> It seems to be two poems. In the first one, I'd recommend cutting the numbers, because they give a false specificity which is romantic: Service Call Remove loose silicon Re-silicon silicon dam at bottom of door where door abuts stationary panels replace door hardware in what I am calling the second poem, I LOVE the approval blank -- the way it invites the participation of the reader -- and also the self-referentiality it assumes when considered as an independent poem -- these same aspects are confusing when these lines are considered as part of a unified text, as this second poem is of a different nature -- it is obviously derived from "boilerplate" while the first poem seems to have been "written in" Terms: 50% on approval, balance on delivery or installation. Please circle the options required, sign and date below, and return one signed copy with your deposit. Please keep one copy for your records. ________________________ _____________ Approved Date Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jul 1 17:57:33 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 17:57:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List Message-ID: <12a.137b8e24.2a522a4d@aol.com> These days the whole poetry publishing world seems to revolve around contests. Soon there will be a lack of eminent names with which to label the various prizes, and they'll be scraping bottom with the Horatio Colony Award and Trumbull Stickney Prize. Shortly thereafter there will be enough prizes so that every practicing poet can be sure to be named a winner at least once a year. Until then if you want to keep tabs on what's up for grabs this list is one source... CONPO-Literary Contest Information List A Free Service for Writers and Poets A.E. Joseph, List Owner subscribe: send blank e-mail to conpo-subscribe at yahoogroups.com unsubscribe: send blank e-mail to conpo-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com List owner's address: conpo-owner at yahoogroups.com Home Page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conpo From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jul 1 18:23:30 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:23:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] babelfishing Message-ID: <123.130579ac.2a523062@aol.com> In a message dated 7/1/02 2:32:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, marcus at designerglass.com writes: > Subj: Re: [New-Poetry] babelfishing > Date: 7/1/02 2:32:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time > From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) > Sender: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Reply-to: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > Gary Sullivan suggested a very interesting exercise in selecting a > > conventional poem, typing > > it into my word processor, then cutting and pasting the poem into > Babelfish > > (a translating service). > > Then I was to command the text to be translated from English into German, > > then from German into > > French, and then from French back into English, using the result as the > > source of a poem. > > I have to say that I love the notion that anything, anything at all, is > a poem! The grandmaster Wilhelm Steinitz was known to admonish, "Sit on your hands!" In other words, don't just push the chess pieces around the board...think, think long and hard before you make a move. Perhaps more poets need to sit on their hands, too. Or maybe poets have too much time on their hands or is it that waiting for inspiration just doesn't have the aspect of instant gratification we've come to expect in these rash and unromantic times. Finnegan From hruggier at localnet.com Tue Jul 2 10:24:41 2002 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:24:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List References: <12a.137b8e24.2a522a4d@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D21B7A9.ACC54E37@localnet.com> I agree about the contest glut - in fact I was hoping that the Howitzer Prize - wasn't that a hoax contest someone sponsored and then won himself - would become a model for the rest of us. To each his/her own contest/contessa. My next gripe is that every magazine/press in the world who has a contest makes you send an entry fee/reading fee/user fee. Trying to get a manuscript published has become a very expensive proposition. For the 2 or 3 hundred in entry fees it would cost - you could do it yourself. It's annoying, demeaning for a writer to have to pay before a ms. will be read. Please don't tell me about the rising costs of publishing. Been there, done that. Never charged either. Helen Ruggieri JforJames at aol.com wrote: > These days the whole poetry publishing world seems to revolve > around contests. Soon there will be a lack of eminent names with > which to label the various prizes, and they'll be scraping bottom with > the Horatio Colony Award and Trumbull Stickney Prize. Shortly > thereafter there will be enough prizes so that every practicing poet > can be sure to be named a winner at least once a year. Until then > if you want to keep tabs on what's up for grabs this list is one source... > > CONPO-Literary Contest Information List > A Free Service for Writers and Poets > A.E. Joseph, List Owner > subscribe: send blank e-mail > to conpo-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > unsubscribe: send blank e-mail > to conpo-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > List owner's address: conpo-owner at yahoogroups.com > Home Page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conpo > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Jul 2 10:36:36 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 07:36:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List References: <12a.137b8e24.2a522a4d@aol.com> <3D21B7A9.ACC54E37@localnet.com> Message-ID: <3D21BA74.F7331FBA@earthlink.net> Indeed. If AWP wisely decides in favor of a panel proposed for Baltimore (moi, Chase Twichell, Martha Rhodes, Anthony Vallone, & Kate Gale), we will be airing all of the concerns related to contest publishing. The justification for fee-based publishing is always "the rising costs of publishing." There are exceptions, such as Chase and Ausable Press, where she reads all of the manuscripts (no screeners, no anonymous "judge") and must, of course, be compensated for her time - fees also go toward underwriting production and promotion - and I think that's justifiable. - Jim Helen Ruggieri wrote: > > I agree about the contest glut - in fact I was hoping that the Howitzer Prize > - wasn't that a hoax contest someone sponsored and then won himself - would > become a model for the rest of us. To each his/her own contest/contessa. > > My next gripe is that every magazine/press in the world who has a contest > makes you send an entry fee/reading fee/user fee. Trying to get a manuscript > published has become a very expensive proposition. For the 2 or 3 hundred in > entry fees it would cost - you could do it yourself. It's annoying, demeaning > for a writer to have to pay before a ms. will be read. > > Please don't tell me about the rising costs of publishing. Been there, done > that. Never charged either. > > Helen Ruggieri > > JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > These days the whole poetry publishing world seems to revolve > > around contests. Soon there will be a lack of eminent names with > > which to label the various prizes, and they'll be scraping bottom with > > the Horatio Colony Award and Trumbull Stickney Prize. Shortly > > thereafter there will be enough prizes so that every practicing poet > > can be sure to be named a winner at least once a year. Until then > > if you want to keep tabs on what's up for grabs this list is one source... > > > > CONPO-Literary Contest Information List > > A Free Service for Writers and Poets > > A.E. Joseph, List Owner > > subscribe: send blank e-mail > > to conpo-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > unsubscribe: send blank e-mail > > to conpo-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > List owner's address: conpo-owner at yahoogroups.com > > Home Page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conpo > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Jul 2 12:13:49 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:13:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Miroslav Holub, "Animal Rights" Message-ID: Here's a curtain call for a Holub poem I posted about a year ago: Animal Rights Pity for dogs that cry (boundless pity). Pity for mice that squirm. Pity for earthworms that wither helplessly (limited pity). (Pity for protozoons that sway their cilia so desperately. Pity for cells that crawl away for life). Pity for the central nervous system, microglia excepted. Patients with progressive amyotrophic lateral sclerosis can just fuck off. They shouldn't have been born. Hieronymus Bosch be with them for ever and ever amen. --Miroslav Holub, fr. *Vanishing Lung Syndrome* [trans. David Young and Dana Habova Hal From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Tue Jul 2 12:33:35 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 12:33:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture (was: ConPo List) In-Reply-To: <3D21B7A9.ACC54E37@localnet.com> Message-ID: Last I heard, there were some 2000 new books of poetry published yearly in the U.S. How many of them did *you* read last year? I'm sure not even Harold Bloom could read that much, and who would want to? So there's a real sense in which no one can claim to have a comprehensive handle on what's happening in American poetry. (Maybe everything I and everyone else says about contemporary poetry should carry a disclaimer to that effect.) Nonetheless, I'm impatient with the diatribes you hear fairly often about American poetry's glut of mediocrity--for hidden within those stupendous numbers of new books is always more interesting poetry than *I* have time to attend to. I know this is true because I buy and read a lot of those books, enough to tell that it's the tip of an interesting iceberg. But we will have to recognize that the landscape of poetry publishing has changed utterly in the past few decades. There are a lot more ambitious and credible poets than there are "markets" for such--and the contest system has evolved as a way to get some greater proportion of worthy books into print despite there being very little readership to support it in a purely economic sense. Poetry's always been heavily subsidized, of course, whether by king, arts board, or private patron; we seem to be looking at the evolution of a new, democratized system of patronage. It's frustrating and expensive to be one of those thousands of aspiring poets, I know well, but the system's not *all* bad, I think--it's gotten me and many of my friends into print, for one thing, and in a different world this might well not be the case. And if the alternative is something like the old days, when Harper and Macmillan and Faber published their handful of recognized poets and that was that, well, it's not a happy prospect. -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== > From: Helen Ruggieri > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:24:41 -0400 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] CONPO List > > I agree about the contest glut - in fact I was hoping that the Howitzer Prize > - wasn't that a hoax contest someone sponsored and then won himself - would > become a model for the rest of us. To each his/her own contest/contessa. > > My next gripe is that every magazine/press in the world who has a contest > makes you send an entry fee/reading fee/user fee. Trying to get a manuscript > published has become a very expensive proposition. For the 2 or 3 hundred in > entry fees it would cost - you could do it yourself. It's annoying, demeaning > for a writer to have to pay before a ms. will be read. > > Please don't tell me about the rising costs of publishing. Been there, done > that. Never charged either. > > Helen Ruggieri > From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Jul 2 13:45:38 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:45:38 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture (was: ConPo List) References: Message-ID: <3D21E6C2.88ED866D@earthlink.net> David Graham wrote: > > Last I heard, there were some 2000 new books of poetry published yearly in > the U.S. How many of them did *you* read last year? Maybe just a dozen, but I have a hunch they might have been the wrong dozen. > > I'm sure not even Harold Bloom could read that much, and who would want to? > So there's a real sense in which no one can claim to have a comprehensive > handle on what's happening in American poetry. (Maybe everything I and > everyone else says about contemporary poetry should carry a disclaimer to > that effect.) Should be mandatory at the end of every review or critical piece. > > Nonetheless, I'm impatient with the diatribes you hear fairly often about > American poetry's glut of mediocrity--for hidden within those stupendous > numbers of new books is always more interesting poetry than *I* have time to > attend to. I know this is true because I buy and read a lot of those books, > enough to tell that it's the tip of an interesting iceberg. Correctomundo. There are real "winners" amongst the winners. However, I have this separate (segregated?) stack of complimentary copies of winning books from contests I have entered. I've been planning a review of a half dozen of such, but I can't bring myself to actually write it. Who needs enemies. > > But we will have to recognize that the landscape of poetry publishing has > changed utterly in the past few decades. There are a lot more ambitious and > credible poets than there are "markets" for such--and the contest system has > evolved as a way to get some greater proportion of worthy books into print > despite there being very little readership to support it in a purely > economic sense. There's the rub. I doubt that the contest system has really winnowed the wheat from the chaff. What's the alternative? I don't have an answer. > > Poetry's always been heavily subsidized, of course, whether by king, arts > board, or private patron; we seem to be looking at the evolution of a new, > democratized system of patronage. Yeah, where are those kings when we need them. How is the contest system a "democratized system of patronage"? No. Save it for Baltimore. - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This message, unless otherwise noted, is impermanent. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org Poetserv: http://www.poetserv.com Homepage: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Jul 2 13:48:03 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:48:03 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] toot for The Salt River Review Message-ID: <3D21E753.34675C7@earthlink.net> The new issue of Poems Niederngasse http://www.niederngasse.com includes a review of The Salt River Review, as well as a short interview with moi. The "Web Site Review, by Amy Unsworth" is at http://www.niederngasse.com/default1.html though you can access it off the main page - the interview is accessible via a link in the review of SRR. You can read Poems Niederngasse in English, German, or Spanish. - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Note: This message for informational purposes only. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org Poetserv: http://www.poetserv.com Homepage: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Jul 2 13:59:45 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:59:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture (was: ConPo List) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { Last I heard, there were some 2000 new books of poetry published yearly in { the U.S. How many of them did *you* read last year? Do you mean cover to cover? All at once, like? But really, who counts? I know a guy who still, in his late fifties, logs the title of every book he reads into some kind of notebook or ledger. Someday, he'll look up in dismay, like that guy in the TV commercial who "finishes" the Internet, and say, "What now? What next?" And he'll probably take up golf or bowling or fishing or something. At least he'll get more fresh air with a couple of those--if there *is* such a thing as fresh air nowadays. Hal "I have nothing to say and I am saying it and that is poetry." --John Cage Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Tue Jul 2 15:43:51 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:43:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture (was: ConPo List) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Amen. -- From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Tue Jul 2 15:55:29 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:55:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture (was: ConPo List) In-Reply-To: <3D21E6C2.88ED866D@earthlink.net> References: <3D21E6C2.88ED866D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: At least we don't need to write country house poems for people at the Hamptons. ellen s. -- From Arielpf123 at aol.com Tue Jul 2 15:11:27 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 15:11:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture (was: ConPo List) Message-ID: <167.101bd62c.2a5354df@aol.com> In a message dated 7/2/02 2:03:53 PM, halvard at earthlink.net writes: << { Last I heard, there were some 2000 new books of poetry published yearly in { the U.S. How many of them did *you* read last year? Do you mean cover to cover? >> Bet I've read at least three dozen.. maybe more. And would have read more than that if I could have afforded to and had room to keep them. And yes, cover to cover...front to back. When I consider how long and with what angst it took to put my book in order, I figure poets deserve to have theirs read from the first page to the last. pat fargnoli From chryss at silcom.com Tue Jul 2 16:39:55 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 13:39:55 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture (was: ConPo List) In-Reply-To: <167.101bd62c.2a5354df@aol.com> Message-ID: > From: Arielpf123 at aol.com > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 15:11:27 EDT > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture (was: ConPo List) >I figure poets deserve to have theirs > read from the first page to the last. > > pat fargnoli That kind of sounds like you're reading out of a sense of professional courtesy, rather than pleasure. . . Reminds me of the books I keep because of the inscriptions, not the contents. . . C. Chryss Yost -- Variation of Belloc's "Fatigue" I hardly ever tire of love or rhyme? That's why I'm poor and have a rotten time. -Wendy Cope From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 2 16:54:00 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 16:54:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List Message-ID: <140.10de2435.2a536ce8@aol.com> In a message dated 7/2/02 10:06:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hruggier at localnet.com writes: > very magazine/press in the world who has a contest > makes you send an entry fee/reading fee/user fee. Trying to get a > manuscript > published has become a very expensive proposition. For the 2 or 3 hundred > in > entry fees it would cost - you could do it yourself. It's annoying, > demeaning > for a writer to have to pay before a ms. will be read. > I think the solution is for more literary presses to gravitate to a subsidy financing mode. If a 1000 print-run book costs a press about $5000 to issue, what if the press has the author put up $3000 and it foots the other $2000. Under that arrangement, the press would only have to sell just 333 books (or 1/3 of the run), assuming $6 wholesale/net price to get to breakeven. And the poet, who can sell books at readings/signings for the full $12 retail price would only need to unload 250 books to reach his breakeven point. Any additional sales would be gravy for each party. And the press doesn't have to become any less selective in terms of to whom it offers a subsidy contract...it can retain full editorial control of what its list will look like. $3000 may sound like a lot to some poets...but that's just $750 per year if a poet publishes a book every 4 years...and $750 less contest fees, copying & mailing, and no longer being a rat-in-a-wheel keeping track of guidelines & deadlines, who is judging what contest this year, etc. & suddenly it starts to look like a pretty good deal. Finnegan From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Jul 2 16:57:49 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 13:57:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture (was: ConPo List) References: <3D21E6C2.88ED866D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D2213CD.350E25C2@earthlink.net> ellen smith wrote: > > At least we don't need to write country house poems for people at the Hamptons. > ellen s. > -- THAT is a good idea. Seeing as how it's summer, I suggest everyone write a poem to a country house in the Hamptons. Typing in "The Hamptons" at Google produces pages of research material. In the meantime, seeing as how it's summer, go to http://nukethehamptons.com/launch.html - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Note: This message for informational purposes only. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org Poetserv: http://www.poetserv.com Homepage: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Jul 2 17:05:32 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:05:32 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List References: <140.10de2435.2a536ce8@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D22159C.4424DFCA@earthlink.net> Dynamite idea. When are you sending me the front money? - Cervantes p.s. - Seriously, it is not at all a bad idea, though I think the split should be the other way: press puts up 3k, author puts up 2k. JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > I think the solution is for more literary presses to gravitate to a > subsidy financing mode. If a 1000 print-run book costs a press > about $5000 to issue, what if the press has the author put up $3000 > and it foots the other $2000. Under that arrangement, the > press would only have to sell just 333 books (or 1/3 of the run), > assuming $6 wholesale/net price to get to breakeven. And the > poet, who can sell books at readings/signings for the full > $12 retail price would only need to unload 250 books to reach his > breakeven point. Any additional sales would be gravy for each > party. And the press doesn't have to become any less selective > in terms of to whom it offers a subsidy contract...it can retain > full editorial control of what its list will look like. > $3000 may sound like a lot to some poets...but that's just $750 per year > if a poet publishes a book every 4 years...and $750 less contest > fees, copying & mailing, and no longer being a rat-in-a-wheel keeping > track of guidelines & deadlines, who is judging what contest this > year, etc. & suddenly it starts to look like a pretty good deal. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 2 17:51:45 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:51:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cover to Cover Message-ID: <6.2b5297c8.2a537a71@aol.com> In a message dated 7/2/02 4:43:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, chryss at silcom.com writes: > I figure poets deserve to have theirs > > read from the first page to the last. > > > > pat fargnoli > > That kind of sounds like you're reading out of a sense of professional > courtesy, rather than pleasure. . . > Reminds me of the books I keep because of the inscriptions, not the > contents. . . I would say that I did read every poem in each book that I actually bought during the past year. The books given to me don't count. Nor do those pulled off the shelf at the local bookstore and given a thumbed-through peruse. I generally begin by reading a few at random...then going back to the beginning to read them all in sequence. Truth is, I believe that most books, despite the author's angst over the ordering, are just collections of poems that could have been collected in many other equally gratifying sequences. We remember certain scenes from films...I seem to remember certain poems from books....the rest of the poems become part of a vague, swirling background which has a certain feeling or color about it, but can't quite be resolved. Finnegan From Arielpf123 at aol.com Tue Jul 2 18:08:54 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:08:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture (was: ConPo List) Message-ID: <107.14263d6b.2a537e76@aol.com> In a message dated 7/2/02 4:43:31 PM, chryss at silcom.com writes: << That kind of sounds like you're reading out of a sense of professional courtesy, rather than pleasure. . . Reminds me of the books I keep because of the inscriptions, not the contents. . . >> nope.....pleasure. Though sometimes it begins because I know the poet... if it's not pleasure, the book doesn't get finished. And, as for keeping books....poetry books, I can't bear to throw away...and seldom give away and then only when I can't find a place to squeeze them in. My bookcases are jammed with poetry, and how to and essay books I use for teaching, and reference books (eg field guides, dictionaries of symbols, etc). It's everything else that I get rid of. I live in two rooms.....one has to prioritize. pat From barry.spacks at verizon.net Tue Jul 2 18:14:35 2002 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 15:14:35 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: So Many Poems, so little time! In-Reply-To: <003701c22213$018658e0$220110ac@pavilion> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020702150704.00a03a10@mail.verizon.net> At 02:54 PM 7/2/02 -0700, Catherine Daly wrote: > > It seems to be two poems. Actually, Catherine, three, including the echt experimental: Marcus Bales -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Arielpf123 at aol.com Tue Jul 2 18:17:49 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:17:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cover to Cover Message-ID: <53.18de343b.2a53808d@aol.com> In a message dated 7/2/02 5:53:34 PM, JforJames at aol.com writes: << Truth is, I believe that most books, despite the author's angst over the ordering, are just collections of poems that could have been collected in many other equally gratifying sequences. >> ah, but also many books have a backstory to them...mine did. ...or an emotional ebb and flow....or...a thematic progression of some sort......or a movement toward some kind of resolution...or.....etc. And I enjoy following the author's intent in this. I agree that many also could be arranged other ways just as well.... but I think they would then be different books.....maybe not terribly different...but different. pat From Cadaly at aol.com Tue Jul 2 19:45:53 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 19:45:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] call for readers -- LA Message-ID: <01D44E5C.67D9E24D.00045B92@aol.com> I am curating two reading series starting in the fall and welcome suggestions on writers I should think about contacting as well as backchannel e-mails from people who would like to read. If you run a series in Southern California and would like to explore working together with me to give a poet a series of readings, let me know. One, called Writers & Teachers, focusses on LA-area teachers reading with and introducing three of their students *of fiction or nonfiction* and is at the Westwood Barnes & Noble, which SoCal residents may know has a number of series which are quite different from regular chainstore bookstore readings. Like we have treats. Another is for new media and performance, with a visual arts tie in, at the Hammer Museum. Successful reading in the past in this series by Cecelia Vicuna, as well as by usual suspects like Jeff McDaniel and Ellyn Maybe. Upcoming reader Peter Schuyldahl maybe. I am interested in writer / artist collaborations like those of Mei-Mei Brussenbrugge and Richard Tuttle, a number of other Kelsey Street teams, etc.; poets like Carolyn Bergval or Carolee Schneeman or Adeena Karasick or Maggie O'Sullivan or Anne Tardos but my budget for this season is not large enough to bring in more than two writers / artists in from out of town, and not large enough to get anyone in from outside the continental U.S. Warm regards, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net 533 South Alandele Avenue Los Angeles, CA 90036-3250 From Cadaly at aol.com Tue Jul 2 19:45:27 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 19:45:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] call for readers -- LA Message-ID: <2FCC9AD3.3EF95AF8.00045B92@aol.com> I am curating two reading series starting in the fall and welcome suggestions on writers I should think about contacting as well as backchannel e-mails from people who would like to read. If you run a series in Southern California and would like to explore working together with me to give a poet a series of readings, let me know. One, called Writers & Teachers, focusses on LA-area teachers reading with and introducing three of their students *of fiction or nonfiction* and is at the Westwood Barnes & Noble, which SoCal residents may know has a number of series which are quite different from regular chainstore bookstore readings. Like we have treats. Another is for new media and performance, with a visual arts tie in, at the Hammer Museum. Successful reading in the past in this series by Cecelia Vicuna, as well as by usual suspects like Jeff McDaniel and Ellyn Maybe. Upcoming reader Peter Schuyldahl maybe. I am interested in writer / artist collaborations like those of Mei-Mei Brussenbrugge and Richard Tuttle, a number of other Kelsey Street teams, etc.; poets like Carolyn Bergval or Carolee Schneeman or Adeena Karasick or Maggie O'Sullivan or Anne Tardos but my budget for this season is not large enough to bring in more than two writers / artists in from out of town, and not large enough to get anyone in from outside the continental U.S. Warm regards, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net 533 South Alandele Avenue Los Angeles, CA 90036-3250 From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 2 20:38:27 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 20:38:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cover to Cover Message-ID: In a message dated 7/2/02 6:19:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Arielpf123 at aol.com writes: > ah, but also many books have a backstory to them...mine did. ...or an > emotional ebb and flow....or...a thematic progression of some sort......or a > > movement toward some kind of resolution...or.....etc. And I enjoy > following the author's intent in this. I agree that many also could be > arranged other ways just as well.... but I think they would then be > different > books.....maybe not terribly different...but different. pat, I don't disagree completely, but the backstory is back, and not foregrounded, so not easily sussed out without some extraneous bio material. Celan's backstory one could say, was the Holocaust. I think that contemporary poets often obsess over "making a book" from their individual poems, and this has more to do with eking out some personal gratification from the large amorphous project which was the production of those poem. And why not? There are so few external rewards for a poet who publishes a book, at least the poet should be gratified by her/his book. Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 2 21:36:47 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:36:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Memorial Service for Zenshin Philip Whalen Sept 1 Message-ID: <93.1f7b7c87.2a53af2f@aol.com> From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Memorial Service for Zenshin Philip Whalen Sept 1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" A Zen Buddhist memorial service will be held for Zenshin Philip Whalen at Green Gulch Farms and Zen Center on Sunday September 1 at 2:30 pm Richard Baker Roshi officiating, there will be a chance for appreciations Green Gulch is located at 1601 Shoreline Hwy (Highway 1) just south of Muir Beach Michael Rothenberg walterblue at bigbridge.org Big Bridge www.bigbridge.org From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 2 22:03:33 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:03:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] New Mudlark Message-ID: <72.1ebbe10f.2a53b575@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:06:16 -0400 From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark New and On View: Mudlark Poster No. 40 (2002) Amy Pence | Red Toenails Amy Pence has published a variety of poems in different magazines including American Letters & Commentary, New American Writing, and Sonora Review. Her interview with the poet Li-Young Lee appeared in Poets & Writers (November/December 2001). Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jul 2 23:52:43 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 23:52:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cover to Cover In-Reply-To: <6.2b5297c8.2a537a71@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D223CCB.29187.6CDBF5@localhost> > > I figure poets deserve to have theirs read from the first page to the last. > > > pat fargnoli Poets do not deserve to be heard - every scrap of attention has to be worked for, says James Fenton {HYPERLINK "http://www.guardian.co.uk"}http://books.guardian.co.uk/fentonserial/story/0,12098,745929,00.html Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jul 2 23:52:43 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 23:52:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List In-Reply-To: <140.10de2435.2a536ce8@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D223CCB.14547.6CDBD5@localhost> Finnegan: > I think the solution is for more literary presses to gravitate to a > subsidy financing mode. ... And the press doesn't have to > become any less selective ...<< Whew! Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From simon at ipfw.edu Wed Jul 3 10:50:02 2002 From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon) Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:50:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cover to Cover Message-ID: if a poetry coll makes it home with me, i read it front to back, left, right, turn page, left, right, turn, right inside the front door. or, if i've ordered it on a hope from spr church, small press, etc., i'll read it thru when it arrives. at the bkstore or the library, if i sit down on the floor, then the bk comes home. there, tho, i usu go first 2 poems, last two, middle, etc. (a good university library's ordering chapbks as well as full-length volumes) david, with re to reading, i think pat's more on target, altho i suspect she may be significantly undercounting. as for buying, i bet i'm not alone in buying a lot more than i can afford regards, beth From chryss at silcom.com Wed Jul 3 12:01:36 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 09:01:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The recent "cover to cover" conversations and others remind me that it is READERS, not writers (poets or otherwise), who control the market. Obviously, buying books of poetry helps; it shows publishers and bookstores that poetry is alive, and earns its shelf space. BUT there's another way to let bookstores and others know that you think poetry matters: REVIEW. Some online stores, like Amazon and Barnes & Noble, make it very easy to post your comments. Your local bookstore may allow you to post a "bookshelf" review, or try publishing a full-length review. Write honest reviews, good and bad and controversial, and let Da Man know that you read and have opinions about poetry, and you think it's worth talking about. It's a free (if often unpaid) way to promote poetry reading and poetry selling, and it doesn't even require additional bookshelf space. C. From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Jul 3 15:06:06 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:06:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: CLMP Newswire for July 1, 2002 Message-ID: <000401c222c4$aeed0ae0$bf21f7a5@computer> FYI Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard -----Original Message----- From: Newswire [mailto:newswire at clmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 9:07 AM To: Newswire at clmp.org Subject: CLMP Newswire for July 1, 2002 The CLMP Newswire A Biweekly Email News Dispatch on Independent Literary Publishing A Project of the Council of Literary Magazines and Presses (http://www.clmp.org) Table of Contents for July 1, 2002 (Volume 2, Number 12) -- Tom Bigelow, Managing Editor of Kenyon Review, Dies of Cancer -- Poetz.com: Tracking An E-Zine's Success -- Third Annual Literary Magazine Fair Expanded to Lit Mag Marathon Weekend -- Events TOM BIGELOW, MANAGING EDITOR OF KENYON REVIEW, DIES OF CANCER Thomas L. Bigelow, Managing Editor of the Kenyon Review for the last four years, died after a five-week battle with cancer on June 9, 2002. He was 41. "His loss has us all staggering," says Kenyon Review Editor David Lynn. "It is such a shock," says Lynn Leach, Managing Editor of Shenandoah. "I'll miss his quiet, calm, and thoughtful intelligence; the way he inspired confidence." A native of Delphos, Ohio, Bigelow served a four-year stint in the United States Navy as a communications specialist and later earned his bachelor's degree in environmental communications from Ohio State University. Following that, he received a Masters Degree in English Writing (Non-Fiction) at the University of New Hampshire. He went on to work at various trade publications and briefly in public radio before he became the senior technical writer at Battelle Memorial Institute in Columbus, Ohio. In 1991, Bigelow began his long career at Kenyon College, joining the administration as Publications Director in the Office of Public Affairs. In that capacity, he worked as liaison between administration, faculty, and staff clients, and he frequently contributed to the Kenyon College Alumni Bulletin. He won numerous awards for his writing from the Council for Advancement and Support of Education. Bigelow became managing editor of the Kenyon Review (www.KenyonReview.org) in 1998 and managed the daily operations of the literary publication until his death. Bigelow quickly proved to be an invaluable asset to the journal. "He held that place together," says friend and colleague Anne Kinard. Susan Kenny, Literary Magazine Specialist and Special Projects Director at CLMP, attributes his success at the Kenyon Review to this willingness to try new ways of managing the magazine. "Tom was someone who was not resistant to new ideas about running a magazine," says Kenny. "He was so resourceful, and the consensus among those who knew him was that he was the driving force behind the commercial success of the Kenyon Review." Says Lynn, "Tom not only modernized and improved the production of the Kenyon Review, but he made friends everywhere and was always helping his colleagues throughout the literary community." A memorial is scheduled for Bigelow at Kenyon College on September 6 at 5 p.m. During the service, a tree will be planted in his honor. Memorial gifts may be sent in Tom's name to a new scholarship called Young Writers at Kenyon. POETZ.COM: TRACKING AN E-ZINE'S SUCCESS E-Zines have come a long way. Once regarded as poor cousins to their print counterparts, places where poets who can't get published go to publish their own work, on-line literary magazines are enjoying a growing credibility. "On-line poets were, to a certain extent, regarded as failed poets grasping at straws, and there was just enough truth in that to keep more talented writers off the net," says Jackie Sheeler, founder and Editor of Poetz.com. "Today, the landscape is completely different, with poets of the first order publishing work on Web del Sol, Drunken Boat, Painted Bride Quarterly--the list goes on." Sheeler's opinion should count for something. She started Poetz.com in 1999, originally to promote a reading series called Pink Pony Poetry. Like most on-line publications, the website quickly expanded because many of the readers at the series, according to Sheeler, were vastly talented but had nowhere to publish their work. As part of its mission to promote writers, Poetz.com also includes two on-line poetry event calendars--one for New York City and one for New Jersey--and Sheeler publishers a monthly on-line newsletter that goes out to 9,000 subscribers. This month she will also publish a poetry calendar for Los Angeles. "What makes Poetz unique is that it's an anthology, not an issue-oriented zine," says Sheeler. Each of the half dozen poets to contribute every month are spotlighted. Following their month in the limelight, the poems and their creators would then move to the table of contents, making room for a new batch of featured writers. "Once a poet has appeared on the site, they always have a place to send someone who wants to read their work." More than 100 writers have been featured on the site, including Eileen Myles, Lyn Lifshin, and Bob Holman. Though Sheeler has been alone in the creation and financing of the site, she has not been solitary in its literary vision and expansion. In October 2001, she agreed to host and produce an on-line publication called For Immediate Release (or FIR). It was conceived after 9/11 when poet Randy Roark put together a collection of poems and began to email them to people. "Emailing a Word document wasn't a very effective way to get the work out, so I offered to host FIR on my site," says Sheeler. FIR features new work by different poets every 30 days as well as a long serialized poem by Christopher Luna about 9/11. In addition, the first six issues included previously unpublished material by writers from different disciplines, including Allen Ginsberg and Jane Siberry. According to Sheeler, FIR is now moving to a new format where invited guest editors create single issues. In spite of all this dedication to on-line publishing, Sheeler is not afraid of print. She hopes to put together a "best-of" anthology on paper. And like all small literary publishers, print or web-based, she has her worries. "I wrestle with the future," she says. "Whether to go non-profit, and if doing that will cause me to lose my autonomy and control, and whether I will continue to have enough time to keep up this pace." However, Sheeler is clear on the mission of Poetz.org. "As poets, we work our day jobs, and then we go home and write for the sake of art," says Sheeler, whose first collection of poems will be published next year. "I wanted to help poets get their work recognized." Check out the site at http://www.poetz.com. THIRD ANNUAL LITERARY MAGAZINE FAIR EXPANDED TO LIT MAG MARATHON WEEKEND For the third year in a row, the Literary Magazine Fair in New York City was a giant success--as the newly expanded Lit Mag Marathon Weekend. The weekend was sponsored by the Council of Literary Magazines and Presses (http://www.clmp.org) in partnership with Rebecca Wolff of Fence (http://www.fencemag.com) and Jenine Gordon-Bockman of Literal Latte (http://www.literal-latte.com), who began the Fair three years ago. CLMP's Executive Director, Jeffrey Lependorf, added several other events to better serve literary magazines and their readers. This year's festivities began on Saturday, June 22nd, with a networking session for the publishers, many of whom had travelled from as far away as Texas, Florida, and California to take part in the Weekend. Following the session, a "Magathon" reading took place at the New York Public Library's Main Branch. The aptly named event featured 15 literary magazine editors reading selections from their respective publications. A crowd of over 125 people filled the Periodicals Reading Room to see the faces behind the journals and to see a special exhibit of new literary magazines from the library's collection. It marked the first time the room was used for a public event, and because of its success it will now be held every year. On Sunday, June 23rd, the Housing Works Used Book Caf? hosted the Literary Magazine Fair. Over 100 journals from across the country sold issues for $2 and raised $7,000 for Housing Works, a non-profit organization that supports the New York City community of homeless people with AIDS. This year's event, which was both a Village Voice pick and a Time Out pick, had more visitors than ever. "It was phenomenal," says Bockman. "The bookstore was jammed, and people were walking around carrying journals up to their noses." For the first time, the event included the presence of on-line publications. "I felt that even as we were sharing our magazines with the literary public, we were educating them to the fact that we were literary magazines on-line," says Patricia Eakins, Publisher and Editor of Frigate (http://www.frigatezine.com). Eakins says she made contacts with other editors at the fair and saw promotional materials for future literary events that Frigate might attend. In addition, she walked away with valuable content not just from writers who came to the fair but from other magazines open to having Frigate reprint their work. And finally, Eakins says the fair provided great "synergy." "There were some really good ideas being generated at the fair," says Eakins. "The person who benefits the most is the independent publisher." In fact, according to Bockman the "interaction between editors is a large part of the event." And while both the magazines and the bookstore benefit from the fair, the concept was originally created with one idea in mind. "As literary magazines, we exist for readers," says Wolff. "So while it's a great opportunity for editors to get together, the fair should always be a venue for readers to come and learn about these journals." EVENTS PINK PONY WEST POETRY READING SERIES, hosted by Jackie Sheeler at The Cornelia Street Caf?, 29 Cornelia Street (Bleecker and West 4th). July 12, 6 PM: The musical poetry of Glue Puppet, with George Harvilla, John Chorazy and others. CLMP Newswire (c) Council of Literary Magazines and Presses 154 Christopher Street, Suite 3C, New York, New York 10014 tel. (212) 741-9110, fax (212) 741-9112 http://www.clmp.org Issues are distributed on the 1st and 15th of each month. News reported by: Leslie Schwartz, lschwartz at clmp.org Edited by: Robert N. Casper, rcasper at clmp.org Generous funding for the 2002 editions of the CLMP Newswire has been provided by the Wallace-Reader's Digest Funds. The CLMP Newswire is distributed free by the Council of Literary Magazines and Presses, the only national service organization supporting independent publishers of literary books and magazines. Membership information is available by writing to info at clmp.org. To unsubscribe write an e-mail to newswire at clmp.org with "unsubscribe" in the subject listing. Email address changes, letters to the editor, and other questions should be directed to newswire at clmp.org. -- From Arielpf123 at aol.com Wed Jul 3 15:29:34 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:29:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cover to Cover Message-ID: In a message dated 7/3/02 10:57:10 AM, simon at ipfw.edu writes: << i think pat's more on target, altho i suspect she may be significantly undercounting. as for buying, i bet i'm not alone in buying a lot more than i can afford >> no Beth, you're not. I spend more on books than on any other material goods except food. And about undercounting; I've been thinking that myself...currently on my bedside table alone (which means that are in the process of being read or are waiting to be read) are: 9 full collections, 6 chapbooks, and 5 current issues of journals. And that doesn't count the two I'm rereading (Yeat's, and Kinnell's Selecteds, nor John High's poetic novel). The "Selecteds" I DON't read in order though....they are for dipping into and out of. Or sometimes I start wtih poems from the latest book and work backwards. patf From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jul 3 22:48:09 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:48:09 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List References: <140.10de2435.2a536ce8@aol.com> Message-ID: <012201c22305$3e4a2390$66864cca@JROSS2> And for those of us who have jobs -- paying jobs ... at over $40,000 a year ... and no family to support ... and no horrendous mortgages ... or dependants to subsidise -- like parents in nursing homes ... and could find 250 people in this country (Australia) who would buy a copy of their book (not at all easy -- I've tried) -- we just might be able to jump off the rat wheel ... if we could afford to get on it to begin with ... which I can't ... so ... Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 4:54 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] CONPO List > In a message dated 7/2/02 10:06:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > hruggier at localnet.com writes: > > > very magazine/press in the world who has a contest > > makes you send an entry fee/reading fee/user fee. Trying to get a > > manuscript > > published has become a very expensive proposition. For the 2 or 3 > hundred > > in > > entry fees it would cost - you could do it yourself. It's annoying, > > demeaning > > for a writer to have to pay before a ms. will be read. > > > I think the solution is for more literary presses to gravitate to a > subsidy financing mode. If a 1000 print-run book costs a press > about $5000 to issue, what if the press has the author put up $3000 > and it foots the other $2000. Under that arrangement, the > press would only have to sell just 333 books (or 1/3 of the run), > assuming $6 wholesale/net price to get to breakeven. And the > poet, who can sell books at readings/signings for the full > $12 retail price would only need to unload 250 books to reach his > breakeven point. Any additional sales would be gravy for each > party. And the press doesn't have to become any less selective > in terms of to whom it offers a subsidy contract...it can retain > full editorial control of what its list will look like. > $3000 may sound like a lot to some poets...but that's just $750 per year > if a poet publishes a book every 4 years...and $750 less contest > fees, copying & mailing, and no longer being a rat-in-a-wheel keeping > track of guidelines & deadlines, who is judging what contest this > year, etc. & suddenly it starts to look like a pretty good deal. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Jul 3 22:13:37 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 19:13:37 -0700 Subject: Devil's Advocate: Re: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service References: Message-ID: <3D23AF4F.608C62D2@earthlink.net> Chryss Yost wrote: > > The recent "cover to cover" conversations and others remind me that it is > READERS, not writers (poets or otherwise), who control the market. > Obviously, buying books of poetry helps; it shows publishers and bookstores > that poetry is alive, and earns its shelf space. > BUT there's another way to let bookstores and others know that you think > poetry matters: REVIEW. Some online stores, like Amazon and Barnes & Noble, > make it very easy to post your comments. Your local bookstore may allow you > to post a "bookshelf" review, or try publishing a full-length review. Write > honest reviews, good and bad and controversial, and let Da Man know that you > read and have opinions about poetry, and you think it's worth talking about. > It's a free (if often unpaid) way to promote poetry reading and poetry > selling, and it doesn't even require additional bookshelf space. > C. > My contention is that the primary buyers of books of poetry are other poets and/or students enrolled in MFA programs. Who has data to argue otherwise? I don't, nor do I have data to prove my contention, but I'd bet it's out there and could be had if one did care about privacy issues. Anyway, I did an Amazon search, pretending I was someone who'd just "found" poetry as one finds religion. Here's what happened. Amazon search: I selected "books" as my search catergory, then naively typed in "poetry" as a category and hit "go." This is what happened: Results for poetry (these 3 got primary billing) : 1. Poetry Speaks: Hear Great Poets Read Their Work from Tennyson to Plath (Book and 3 Audio CDs) -- by Elise Paschen (Editor), et al 2. Yoga: The Poetry of the Body -- by Rodney Yee, et al; Paperback 3. From Porn to Poetry: Clean Sheets, Celebrates the Erotic Mind Then there was the choice of: "All 32000 results for poetry : ["sort by"]" But under that were listed (first 7 only): 1. The Frogs Wore Red Suspenders by Jack Prelutsky, Petra Mathers (Illustrator) 2. Journey Through Heartsongs by Mattie Stepanek 3. The Melancholy Death of Oyster Boy & Other Stories by Tim Burton 4. Goops and How to be Them : A Manual of Manners for Polite Children Inculcating Many Juvenile Virtues Both by Precept and Example by Gelett Burgess, Barbara Ross 5. Savage Beauty: The Life of Edna St. VincentMillay by Nancy Milford 6. Rainbows, Head Lice, and Pea-Green Tile:Poems in the Voice of the Classroom Teacher by Brodbagert, Brod Bagert, et al 7. The Norton Anthology of Poetry by Margaret Ferguson (Editor), et al Then I went back to "All 32000 results for poetry : ["sort by"]" and I chose "best selling" as the category. Here are the first 8 to pop up: 1. The Frogs Wore Red Suspenders by Jack Prelutsky, Petra Mathers (Illustrator) (Hardcover - February 2002) (Avg. Customer Rating: five stars!!!) 2. Hope Through Heartsongs by Mattie J. T. Stepanek 3. Where the Sidewalk Ends: The Poems and Drawings of Shel Silverstein by Shel Silverstein 4. The Best-Loved Poems of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis by Caroline Kennedy 5. Love That Dog by Sharon Creech 6. The Odyssey by Homer, et al (don't you love the "et al") 7. The Divine Comedy: Inferno, Purgatorio, Paradiso (Everyman's Library, 183) by Dante Alighieri, et al 8. Sailing Alone Around the Room: New and Selected Poems by Billy Collins Homer, Dante, and Collins aside, I'd bet none of those titles appear on MFA program reading lists - Collins makes it because librarians know he's the current poet laureate and that makes it an obligatory buy. So, let's say you do write a review of a book of poetry by someone not appearing above (Collins excepted), who's going to read it? I'd bet it would be other poets and/or students enrolled in MFA programs, not a new reader of poetry. It's mostly a closed universe, except for an occasional recitation of poetry at inaugural ceremonies. Like I said, just "devil's advocate." - Jim From chryss at silcom.com Thu Jul 4 01:05:17 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:05:17 -0700 Subject: Devil's Advocate: Re: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service In-Reply-To: <3D23AF4F.608C62D2@earthlink.net> Message-ID: A valid point. Nonetheless, data-crazed Amazon probably measures traffic to each book, in addition to actual units sold. So, just by visiting the page and posting your opinion, or reading other reviews to see if you agree, you increase the perceived value of that book in Amazon's eyes. Also, as a book buyer, I DO read the reviews once I land on a book page, and it's a red flag to me when a book has zero reviews. Is the book that dull? That unremarkable? I'm much more likely to buy thoroughly reviewed book, and more likely to be satisfied with my choice. Still, you're right that it's a long way from the home page to the review, and most viewers will never see it. Any ideas? We're back to the same old problem, I suppose: reaching potential readers. . . C. > From: James Cervantes > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 19:13:37 -0700 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Devil's Advocate: Re: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service > > > > Chryss Yost wrote: >> >> The recent "cover to cover" conversations and others remind me that it is >> READERS, not writers (poets or otherwise), who control the market. >> Obviously, buying books of poetry helps; it shows publishers and bookstores >> that poetry is alive, and earns its shelf space. >> BUT there's another way to let bookstores and others know that you think >> poetry matters: REVIEW. Some online stores, like Amazon and Barnes & Noble, >> make it very easy to post your comments. Your local bookstore may allow you >> to post a "bookshelf" review, or try publishing a full-length review. Write >> honest reviews, good and bad and controversial, and let Da Man know that you >> read and have opinions about poetry, and you think it's worth talking about. >> It's a free (if often unpaid) way to promote poetry reading and poetry >> selling, and it doesn't even require additional bookshelf space. >> C. >> > > My contention is that the primary buyers of books of poetry are other > poets and/or students enrolled in MFA programs. Who has data to argue > otherwise? I don't, nor do I have data to prove my contention, but I'd > bet it's out there and could be had if one did care about privacy issues. > > Anyway, I did an Amazon search, pretending I was someone who'd just > "found" poetry as one finds religion. Here's what happened. > > Amazon search: > > I selected "books" as my search catergory, then naively typed in > "poetry" as a category and hit "go." This is what happened: > > Results for poetry (these 3 got primary billing) : > > 1. Poetry Speaks: Hear Great Poets Read Their Work from Tennyson to > Plath (Book and 3 > Audio CDs) -- by Elise Paschen (Editor), et al > > 2. Yoga: The Poetry of the Body -- by Rodney Yee, et al; Paperback > > 3. From Porn to Poetry: Clean Sheets, Celebrates the Erotic Mind > > Then there was the choice of: "All 32000 results for poetry : ["sort > by"]" But under that were listed (first 7 only): > > 1. The Frogs Wore Red Suspenders by Jack Prelutsky, Petra Mathers > (Illustrator) > > 2. Journey Through Heartsongs by Mattie Stepanek > > 3. The Melancholy Death of Oyster Boy & Other Stories by Tim Burton > > 4. Goops and How to be Them : A Manual of Manners for Polite Children > Inculcating Many > Juvenile Virtues Both by Precept and Example by Gelett Burgess, Barbara Ross > > 5. Savage Beauty: The Life of Edna St. VincentMillay by Nancy Milford > > 6. Rainbows, Head Lice, and Pea-Green Tile:Poems in the Voice of the > Classroom Teacher > by Brodbagert, Brod Bagert, et al > > 7. The Norton Anthology of Poetry by Margaret Ferguson (Editor), et al > > Then I went back to "All 32000 results for poetry : ["sort by"]" and I > chose "best selling" as the category. Here are the first 8 to pop up: > > 1. The Frogs Wore Red Suspenders by Jack Prelutsky, Petra Mathers > (Illustrator) (Hardcover - February 2002) (Avg. Customer Rating: five > stars!!!) > > 2. Hope Through Heartsongs by Mattie J. T. Stepanek > > 3. Where the Sidewalk Ends: The Poems and Drawings of Shel Silverstein > by Shel Silverstein > > 4. The Best-Loved Poems of Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis by Caroline Kennedy > > 5. Love That Dog by Sharon Creech > > 6. The Odyssey by Homer, et al (don't you love the "et al") > > 7. The Divine Comedy: Inferno, Purgatorio, Paradiso (Everyman's Library, > 183) by Dante Alighieri, et al > > 8. Sailing Alone Around the Room: New and Selected Poems by Billy Collins > > Homer, Dante, and Collins aside, I'd bet none of those titles appear on > MFA program reading lists - Collins makes it because librarians know > he's the current poet laureate and that makes it an obligatory buy. > > So, let's say you do write a review of a book of poetry by someone not > appearing above (Collins excepted), who's going to read it? I'd bet it > would be other poets and/or students enrolled in MFA programs, not a new > reader of poetry. It's mostly a closed universe, except for an > occasional recitation of poetry at inaugural ceremonies. > > Like I said, just "devil's advocate." > > - Jim > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From MillB at aol.com Thu Jul 4 07:11:52 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 07:11:52 EDT Subject: Devil's Advocate: Re: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service Message-ID: <19f.4af3762.2a558778@aol.com> Jim: More devil's advocate talk--I typed in "Mystery" at Amazon and received the following first: 1) The Mystery of Capital: Why Capitalism Triumphs in the West and Fails Everywhere Else -- by Hernando De Soto. 2) The Beach House -- by James Patterson, Peter De Jonge; 3) The Mystery of Marriage: Meditations on the Miracle -- by Mike Mason, James Packer; Paperback Then, I tried Mystery and Thrillers and got this: 1) The Emperor of Ocean Park by Stephen L. Carter 2) The Beach House by James Patterson, Peter De Jonge 3) Bad Boy Brawly Brown: An Easy Rawlins Mystery by Walter Mosley 4. Chopping Spree by Diane Mott Davidson (Hardcover - June 2002) I'd heard of Walter Mosley, but not the others. This search reminded me of when I was in grade school. I went to the bookstore and asked for the Poetry section--I was first directed to shelves and shelves full of Rod McKuen (sp). I am not necessarily convinced that poetry alone is a "closed shop," only that the literary marketplace is different from the popular market. I am also convinced that an Amazon search is a faulty thing! Mill 5. Hard Eight by Janet Evanovich (Hardcover - June 2002) Avg. Customer Rating: Usually ships in 24 hours Editions: Hardcover | Audio Cassette (Abridged) | Audio Cassette (Unabridged) | Audio CD (Unabridged) | Hardcover (Large Print) List Price: $25.95 Our Price: $16.34 You Save: $9.61 (37%) Or buy used: $13.50 Or buy collectible: $27.20 6. The Forgotten by Faye Kellerman (Mass Market Paperback - July 2002) Avg. Customer Rating: Usually ships in 24 hours Editions: Hardcover | Mass Market Paperback | Audio Cassette (Abridged) | Audio Cassette (Unabridged) | Audio CD (Abridged) | Audio CD (Unabridged) | Paperback (Large Print) | Audio Download (Audible.com) List Price: $7.99 Our Price: $7.99 Or buy used: $6.27 7. Grave Secrets by Kathy Reichs (Hardcover - July 2002) Not yet published Editions: Hardcover | Audio Cassette (Abridged) | Audio Cassette (Unabridged) | Audio CD (Abridged) | Audio CD (Unabridged) | Hardcover (Large Print) | Digital (Adobe Reader) List Price: $25.00 Our Price: $17.50 You Save: $7.50 (30%) 8. The Bourne Supremacy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jul 4 07:41:04 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 07:41:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List References: <140.10de2435.2a536ce8@aol.com> <012201c22305$3e4a2390$66864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <001501c2234f$ae1cb260$8fa1fea9@j1c1k6> I've decided to interrupt this thread with my boilerplate that what we need is a thorough, reasonably accurate list of the kinds of poetry available. I've tried many time in the past to get help from other poets in making such a list and got just about nothing but comments from people against labeling. Soon I hope to write a new version of my essay on the subject for the About Poetry site run by Bob Holman & Margery Snyder, so again ask for help. One reason I think such a list is important is that I believe the Internet is poetry's only hope. But it is too clogged, as James Cervantes has shown. A start toward a solution would be a method of categorizing poetry that would allow people to find the kind they like more easily. Discussions of the various schools would also make people aware of what poetry can do, and perhaps pique their curiosity. --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jul 4 08:36:13 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 08:36:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List In-Reply-To: <001501c2234f$ae1cb260$8fa1fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: { One reason I think such a list is important is that { I believe the Internet is poetry's only hope. But it { is too clogged, as James Cervantes has shown. { A start toward a solution would be a method of categorizing poetry that { would allow people to { find the kind they like more easily. Discussions of the various schools { would also make people aware of what poetry can do, and perhaps pique their { curiosity. { { --Bob G. No help here, Bob. Frankly, I think it's more important for people to be exposed to poetry they *don't* like. Serendipity rules! Hal "language--the Riviera of consciousness" --Bob Perelman Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Jul 4 09:06:01 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 06:06:01 -0700 Subject: Devil's Advocate: Re: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service References: Message-ID: <3D244839.5056DB93@earthlink.net> Chryss Yost wrote: > > A valid point. Nonetheless, data-crazed Amazon probably measures traffic to > each book, in addition to actual units sold. So, just by visiting the page > and posting your opinion, or reading other reviews to see if you agree, you > increase the perceived value of that book in Amazon's eyes. > Also, as a book buyer, I DO read the reviews once I land on a book page, and > it's a red flag to me when a book has zero reviews. Is the book that dull? Nope. It's never been found via Amazon.com. Or, the number of people who have read it *and* then go to Amazon to review it is a pitifully small number - doesn't matter whether one has purchased it via Amazon or not. Which suggests to me an assignment for my poetry study students: they *must* write a mini-review of a book by the each of the poets we spend significant time on in class, and submit it at Amazon. This presumes, of course, that the book is listed at Amazon. Those of us who teach such course must do the same. One small step for mankind etc. > That unremarkable? I'm much more likely to buy thoroughly reviewed book, and > more likely to be satisfied with my choice. > Still, you're right that it's a long way from the home page to the review, > and most viewers will never see it. Any ideas? > We're back to the same old problem, I suppose: reaching potential readers. . So, the above is one small idea. Another is for folks to get over the idea that the www is a second-class place to publish. Until that happens, the majority of poetry available on the web *will* be vanity work, amateurish etc. That's old, small idea #2. - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Wherever you go, there you are" - Louis Simpson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org Poetserv: http://www.poetserv.com Homepage: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Thu Jul 4 09:41:30 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 09:41:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service In-Reply-To: <3D244839.5056DB93@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Just curious: on this list we have quite a concentration of poetry-reading fanatics. How many of us have reviewed books on Amazon or other such sites? How many regularly do so? Likewise, how many of us regularly *buy* new books of poetry? I've met more than a few poets who don't, it seems. Not pointing fingers here: just wondering about the stats for such things. -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== > Nope. It's never been found via Amazon.com. Or, the number of people > who have read it *and* then go to Amazon to review it is a pitifully > small number - doesn't matter whether one has purchased it via Amazon or > not. Which suggests to me an assignment for my poetry study students: > they *must* write a mini-review of a book by the each of the poets we > spend significant time on in class, and submit it at Amazon. This > presumes, of course, that the book is listed at Amazon. Those of us who > teach such course must do the same. One small step for mankind etc. > >> That unremarkable? I'm much more likely to buy thoroughly reviewed book, and >> more likely to be satisfied with my choice. >> Still, you're right that it's a long way from the home page to the review, >> and most viewers will never see it. Any ideas? >> We're back to the same old problem, I suppose: reaching potential readers. . > > So, the above is one small idea. Another is for folks to get over the > idea that the www is a second-class place to publish. Until that > happens, the majority of poetry available on the web *will* be vanity > work, amateurish etc. That's old, small idea #2. > > - Jim From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Thu Jul 4 10:13:19 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:13:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture (was: ConPo List) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I admit I don't count the # of poetry books I read yearly, or read in. I'd guess it's easily in the 100s. But if there are 2000+ new collections published each year, this means that even a poemcrazy reader such as myself cannot truly claim to have any sort of a comprehensive view of the field. Funny, though, how many critics and reviewers sound as if they *are* claiming such a comprehensive view. . . . -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== > From: "Halvard Johnson" > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:59:45 -0400 > To: > Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture (was: ConPo List) > > > { Last I heard, there were some 2000 new books of poetry published yearly > in > { the U.S. How many of them did *you* read last year? > > Do you mean cover to cover? All at once, like? But really, > who counts? I know a guy who still, in his late fifties, logs the > title of every book he reads into some kind of notebook or > ledger. Someday, he'll look up in dismay, like that guy in > the TV commercial who "finishes" the Internet, and say, > "What now? What next?" And he'll probably take up golf > or bowling or fishing or something. At least he'll get more > fresh air with a couple of those--if there *is* such a thing as > fresh air nowadays. > > Hal From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Thu Jul 4 10:13:21 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:13:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture In-Reply-To: <3D21E6C2.88ED866D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: >> >> Poetry's always been heavily subsidized, of course, whether by king, arts >> board, or private patron; we seem to be looking at the evolution of a new, >> democratized system of patronage. > > Jim C: Yeah, where are those kings when we need them. How is the contest > system a "democratized system of patronage"? "Democratized," in the sense that instead of the lucky few poets being patronized by king & court, aspirant poets all pool their money, as it were, in contest fees, and the lucky few are published with the help of that pool of money. In any given contest, the losers are subsidizing the printing of the winners, aren't we? -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From MillB at aol.com Thu Jul 4 10:37:37 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:37:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service Message-ID: I buy anywhere from 12 to 50 new poetry books a year from Spring Church. Others at bookfairs or independent bookstores. I've never written a review at Amazon. I don't read the reviews there either. . . Mill From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Jul 4 10:47:08 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 07:47:08 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service References: Message-ID: <3D245FEC.715C42C1@earthlink.net> David Graham wrote: > > Just curious: on this list we have quite a concentration of poetry-reading > fanatics. How many of us have reviewed books on Amazon or other such sites? I've only submitted a couple of blurbs, mini-reviews to Amazon; will review a few books at The Salt River Review, but leave that to Greg Simon, who does a much better job. > How many regularly do so? > > Likewise, how many of us regularly *buy* new books of poetry? I've met more > than a few poets who don't, it seems. Just now finishing the stack I bought at AWP in Palm Springs (10 books). By the time Baltimore comes around, I will have (hopefully) finished the stack I bought in New Orleans (another 10 - 12). Not every good press is represented at the bookfairs, but I think it's one of the best traveling bookstores going - get to meet most of the authors too, who quite often are also giving readings. Then, I buy a smattering of books every year at bookstores, occasionally Amazon. > > Not pointing fingers here: just wondering about the stats for such things. > -- No virtually digits in sight. - Jim From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Jul 4 10:57:01 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 07:57:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture References: Message-ID: <3D24623D.AF2D9B60@earthlink.net> David Graham wrote: > > >> > >> Poetry's always been heavily subsidized, of course, whether by king, arts > >> board, or private patron; we seem to be looking at the evolution of a new, > >> democratized system of patronage. > > > > Jim C: Yeah, where are those kings when we need them. How is the contest > > system a "democratized system of patronage"? > > "Democratized," in the sense that instead of the lucky few poets being > patronized by king & court, aspirant poets all pool their money, as it were, > in contest fees, and the lucky few are published with the help of that pool > of money. In any given contest, the losers are subsidizing the printing of > the winners, aren't we? > -- Yes. One take on the contest system is that it is too much like a lottery. How is a lottery a democratization? Seems like it's just chance. Are book contests a matter of chance? I don't think so. - Jim From chryss at silcom.com Thu Jul 4 12:10:21 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 09:10:21 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List In-Reply-To: <001501c2234f$ae1cb260$8fa1fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: Bringing together a few threads. . . It all comes together! I totally agree. Not only do we need helpful categories -- (and I can already hear the dissenting "LIMITING! Labels are too limiting! You can't categorize my art!!! It defies categorization!") -- but we also need a way of educating the public in plain language what those categories mean. Most people outside of pobiz don't know even very basic categories (language, formal, free verse, etc.). The system would have to be accessible to poetry likers (vs. lovers). . . I find the comparative system very helpful ("If you like Robert Frost, you'll enjoy _______________"). Much better for non-acaademics than "one of the most innovative post-feminist neo-formalists. . ." Along those lines, wouldn't it be nice if the contests awarded named prizes to poets whose work reflected the namesake's ideals, rather than the judge's? C. > From: "Bob Grumman" > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 07:41:04 -0400 > To: > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] CONPO List > > I've decided to interrupt this thread with my boilerplate that what we need > is a thorough, > reasonably accurate list of the kinds of poetry > available. I've tried many time in the past to get > help from other poets in making such a list and got just about nothing but > comments from people against labeling. Soon I hope to write a new version > of my essay on the subject for the About Poetry site run by Bob Holman & > Margery Snyder, > so again ask for help. > > One reason I think such a list is important is that > I believe the Internet is poetry's only hope. But it > is too clogged, as James Cervantes has shown. > A start toward a solution would be a method of categorizing poetry that > would allow people to > find the kind they like more easily. Discussions of the various schools > would also make people aware of what poetry can do, and perhaps pique their > curiosity. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jul 4 13:14:37 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:14:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List In-Reply-To: <001501c2234f$ae1cb260$8fa1fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3D244A3D.3539.8AAE32@localhost> > I've decided to interrupt this thread with my boilerplate that what we need > is a thorough, > reasonably accurate list of the kinds of poetry > available. I've tried many time in the past to get > help from other poets in making such a list and got just about nothing but > comments from people against labeling. << I have no problem with labeling, Bob, but if you google "love poetry" or "love poems" and look at the incredibly wide variety of things people regard as at least roughly the same within that category, I think it may persuade you that it's not a matter of mere labeling but rather a matter of defining one's labeling terms adequately. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jul 4 13:04:22 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:04:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List References: Message-ID: <000701c2237c$d8465500$c1f4fea9@j1c1k6> > Bringing together a few threads. . . It all comes together! > I totally agree. Not only do we need helpful categories -- (and I can > already hear the dissenting "LIMITING! Labels are too limiting! You can't > categorize my art!!! It defies categorization!") -- but we also need a way > of educating the public in plain language what those categories mean. Most > people outside of pobiz don't know even very basic categories (language, > formal, free verse, etc.). > The system would have to be accessible to poetry likers (vs. lovers). . . I > find the comparative system very helpful ("If you like Robert Frost, you'll > enjoy _______________"). Much better for non-acaademics than "one of the > most innovative post-feminist neo-formalists. . ." Right, but it won't work for Robert Grenier, Robert Peters, Robert Grumman, etc. It won't even work for many poets who work in different veins. The hope would be that there'd be a readily-available place to go to find out, by definition AND examples what the post-feminist neo-formalist is. What I mainly hope to do with my upcoming re-write of my taxonomy of poetry schools essay is to provide many more examples--and pointers as to why so-and-so's "Purple Sklarg" is a good example. > Along those lines, wouldn't it be nice if the contests awarded named prizes > to poets whose work reflected the namesake's ideals, rather than the > judge's? > C. I guess. I'm afraid I'm among those who take ANY poetry prize as an indication of probably unimportant work. Just sounding off, which I trust those at New-Poetry will admit I've been pretty good about not doing so far this year. Won't debate the matter yet again. Thanks for the agreement, C. It might actually make me start thinking more seriously about that essay of mine. Oh, also about another idea of mine that never got anywhere--a kind of dating service questionnaire where one would answer questions like who do you like better, Frost or Whitman--or even have you ever heard of Frost or Whitman. On the basis of one's answers, one would be given a poetry preference profile, and a list of poets one would be most likely to enjoy. Or a list of magazines, anthologies, websites, critics, etc. If the test were given to poets, too, its accuracy could probably be increased substantially. Just thoughts. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jul 4 13:30:41 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:30:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture In-Reply-To: References: <3D21E6C2.88ED866D@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D244E01.25749.9963E1@localhost> > "Democratized," in the sense that instead of the lucky few poets being > patronized by king & court, aspirant poets all pool their money, as it were, > in contest fees, and the lucky few are published with the help of that pool > of money. In any given contest, the losers are subsidizing the printing of > the winners, aren't we? No, because the kings and queens and their courtiers are still the ones deciding who wins. It's only democratization if the people who enter also get to vote on who wins. What you have here is the kings and queens charging the peasants for the privilege of remaining unpublished while the kings and queens and their courtiers publish themselves. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jul 4 13:23:57 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:23:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List References: <3D244A3D.3539.8AAE32@localhost> Message-ID: <002201c2237f$949c86a0$c1f4fea9@j1c1k6> > I have no problem with labeling, Bob, but if you google "love poetry" > or "love poems" and look at the incredibly wide variety of things > people regard as at least roughly the same within that category, I > think it may persuade you that it's not a matter of mere labeling but > rather a matter of defining one's labeling terms adequately. > Marcus Bales Dang! My categories were hot love poetry school, cool love poetry school, patriotic poetry school, commie-loving poetry school, pretty flower poetry school, garbage poetry school (I got that one from this list!), and two or three others whose names I can't remember. Guess I'll have to start again. Maybe, "Florida Poetry School, Delaware Poetry School" . . . --Bob G. > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Thu Jul 4 13:25:04 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 13:25:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture In-Reply-To: <3D24623D.AF2D9B60@earthlink.net> Message-ID: In that I have poured a good deal of money down the submission fee hole without winning, the contest system sucks. Yes. Yet it does seem to me that this particular odd system has developed as a response to the recent explosion in numbers--more and more publishable poets competing for the radically limited resources available. It's "democratic," in that anyone can play. You don't necessarily need to be a Duke's nephew, or to have studied with Jorie Graham, in order to break into print. (The latter doesn't hurt, of course, but it's not a necessity.) From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Jul 4 13:45:13 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:45:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service References: <3D245FEC.715C42C1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001501c22382$8e004c20$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I've never reviewed books on Amazon, and I don't know why not. I actually think it;s a good idea. And I don't buy anywhere near as many books as I should. SITUATIONS pub date August 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service > > > David Graham wrote: > > > > Just curious: on this list we have quite a concentration of poetry-reading > > fanatics. How many of us have reviewed books on Amazon or other such sites? > > I've only submitted a couple of blurbs, mini-reviews to Amazon; will > review a few books at The Salt River Review, but leave that to Greg > Simon, who does a much better job. > > > How many regularly do so? > > > > Likewise, how many of us regularly *buy* new books of poetry? I've met more > > than a few poets who don't, it seems. > > Just now finishing the stack I bought at AWP in Palm Springs (10 books). > By the time Baltimore comes around, I will have (hopefully) finished > the stack I bought in New Orleans (another 10 - 12). Not every good > press is represented at the bookfairs, but I think it's one of the best > traveling bookstores going - get to meet most of the authors too, who > quite often are also giving readings. Then, I buy a smattering of books > every year at bookstores, occasionally Amazon. > > > > > Not pointing fingers here: just wondering about the stats for such things. > > -- > > No virtually digits in sight. > > - Jim > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Thu Jul 4 13:59:46 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:59:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List In-Reply-To: <002201c2237f$949c86a0$c1f4fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3D2454D2.3291.B40732@localhost> > > I have no problem with labeling, Bob, but if you google "love poetry" > > or "love poems" and look at the incredibly wide variety of things > > people regard as at least roughly the same within that category, I > > think it may persuade you that it's not a matter of mere labeling but > > rather a matter of defining one's labeling terms adequately. BobG: > Dang! My categories were hot love poetry school, > cool love poetry school, patriotic poetry school, > commie-loving poetry school, pretty flower poetry > school, garbage poetry school (I got that one from this list!), and two or > three others whose names I can't remember. Guess I'll have to start again. > Maybe, "Florida Poetry School, Delaware Poetry School" . . . Well, that's the problem with taxonomies, Bob -- they are themselves agendae. QED Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jul 4 13:52:09 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:52:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service References: <3D245FEC.715C42C1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003101c22383$8523d080$c1f4fea9@j1c1k6> I've never reviewed a book of poetry at Amazon. Sorry, but I don't think Amazon has the kind of poetry books I'm interested in. Oops, as I was writing that, I recalled that I DID review a poetry book: Poems for the Millennium, an anthology edited by Jerome Rothenberg and Pierre Joris. The trouble with Amazon, for me, is that they won't let you revise your review--or else they make it very difficult; no one is likely to read your review of a good book who didn't already know about the book or author, and Amazon wouldn't sell the anthology I recently edited, Writing to be Seen--or let me know why they wouldn't. No big deal, as it seems to have sold out its 500-copy edition. Or, I should say, I no longer have any copies left for sale. I reviewed a couple of other books on Amazon but not any on any other site that I remember. --Bob G. From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Thu Jul 4 14:19:43 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 14:19:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture In-Reply-To: <3D244E01.25749.9963E1@localhost> Message-ID: Well, I'll happily admit that it ain't democracy in that the poets vote for the winners. Publishing by popular mandate: that *would* be a horror! Jewell would be on the cover of APR every other month, alternating with Maya Angelou. . . . (In a contest, all poets would vote for themselves, probably, and there would never *be* a winner.) Still, I hold to my original point that the current contest system is more egalitarian (or: your term here) than it used to be. Put it this way: these days quite a few former peasants get to be queens or courtiers, and publish *their* friends and sycophants. Wasn't true in the heyday of Lowell and Jarrell, when there was a much more closed system. Not all contests are rigged, by any means, nor do all judges simply pick their friends and former students. It *is* quite possible for wild cards to win the current lotteries. And I for one am glad things have changed, and that my local bookstore stocks a much wider range of poetry than it did a few decades ago. Still, I'd welcome a better system than the present one--particularly one that got *me* back into print soonest. (Editors please respond to the address below.) Just haven't heard of one yet. -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== >> "Democratized," in the sense that instead of the lucky few poets being >> patronized by king & court, aspirant poets all pool their money, as it were, >> in contest fees, and the lucky few are published with the help of that pool >> of money. In any given contest, the losers are subsidizing the printing of >> the winners, aren't we? > > No, because the kings and queens and their courtiers are still the > ones deciding who wins. It's only democratization if the people > who enter also get to vote on who wins. > > What you have here is the kings and queens charging the > peasants for the privilege of remaining unpublished while the kings > and queens and their courtiers publish themselves. > > > Marcus Bales > From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu Jul 4 14:52:11 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:52:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture Message-ID: <9f.29af2319.2a55f35b@aol.com> In a message dated 7/4/02 2:22:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > It *is* quite possible for wild cards > to win the current lotteries. > It's not a perfect solution, but here at Tupelo Press, we select two winners every year: a judge's prize and an editors' prize. Beyond that, in our first year we published four additional manuscripts received in our first-book contest, and our coming fall and spring lists will feature (in addition to the winners), four additional manuscripts received in contests. We also read -- and have committed to -- several unsolicited manuscripts received outside of contests. Contest fees comprise 1/12 of our annual budget. Not looking for a pat on the back, just trying to make a difference. -Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Jul 4 18:11:36 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 15:11:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture References: <9f.29af2319.2a55f35b@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D24C817.73A9BED6@earthlink.net> In a message dated 7/4/02 2:22:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: It *is* quite possible for wild cards to win the current lotteries. It's not a perfect solution, but here at Tupelo Press, we select two winners every year: a judge's prize and an editors' prize. Beyond that, in our first year we published four additional manuscripts received in our first-book contest, and our coming fall and spring lists will feature (in addition to the winners), four additional manuscripts received in contests. We also read -- and have committed to -- several unsolicited manuscripts received outside of contests. Contest fees comprise 1/12 of our annual budget. Not looking for a pat on the back, just trying to make a difference. -Jeffrey Levine Are those ALL first books, Jeffrey? I'm wondering what the ratio is between first book contests and contests open to anyone -- does anyone have a readily available answer? - Jim From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu Jul 4 23:13:57 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:13:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture Message-ID: <12a.139bdc60.2a5668f5@aol.com> In a message dated 7/4/02 6:09:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > Are those ALL first books, Jeffrey? > I'm wondering what the ratio is between first book contests and contests > open to anyone -- does anyone have a readily available answer? > > Jim, I don't know the ratio, though it's been my impression there are far more first book competitions than opens. As for us, besides the numbers mentioned in the last message, we did one second book our first year (Anna Rabinowitz's *Darkling*), and our spring list will include one second book and one fourth book. In the fall, we're initiating our first open poetry competition -- calling it the Dorset Prize (because we're in Dorset, VT) -- and will have two winners. In addition, we've just started accepting submissions outside of contests from all comers (no reading fee). We held off taking second (and up) books until we could work out genuine distribution, but having just signed with Consortium (who distribute for BOA and Graywolf, among others), we feel we now have something rather substantial to offer more established poets. I suspect, as things progress, we'll do at least as many second/third/fourth books as first books. Our fiction contest, by the way, has always been a fully open competition. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 5 07:53:01 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 07:53:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List References: Message-ID: <003b01c2241a$843f8460$a8b2fea9@j1c1k6> > No help here, Bob. Frankly, I think it's more important for people to > be exposed to poetry they *don't* like. Serendipity rules! So, Hal, why would you be against the possibility of a reader's serendipitously bumping into a KIND of poetry new to him in an essay on the various kinds of poetry that are out there? And how would such an essay keep an adventurous reader from happening upon kinds of poetry new to him? Another point is that anyone who gets seriously involved with one kind of poetry will bump into others since almost every poet, except maybe Marcus, is influenced by and mentions poets in other schools of poetry than his main one. And a repeated point: why do you believe certain texts should be categorized as poetry? Or that certain kinds of hum expression should be categorized as texts? Why name anything? --Bob G. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Jul 5 08:34:12 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 05:34:12 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List References: <003b01c2241a$843f8460$a8b2fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3D259243.1A968F58@earthlink.net> Bob: Here's something up your alley: "Loaded Terminology of the Poetry Wars" (by Robert Darling, from Expansive Poetry & Music Online) http://www.n2hos.com/acm/darl0198.html - Jim, offering an instant digression - sort of Bob Grumman wrote: > > > No help here, Bob. Frankly, I think it's more important for people to > > be exposed to poetry they *don't* like. Serendipity rules! > > So, Hal, why would you be against the possibility of a reader's > serendipitously bumping into a KIND of poetry new to him in an essay on the > various kinds of poetry that are out there? And how would such > an essay keep an adventurous reader from happening upon kinds of poetry new > to him? > > Another point is that anyone who gets seriously involved with one kind of > poetry will bump into > others since almost every poet, except maybe Marcus, is influenced by and > mentions poets in > other schools of poetry than his main one. > > And a repeated point: why do you believe certain > texts should be categorized as poetry? Or that > certain kinds of hum expression should be > categorized as texts? Why name anything? > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Jul 5 08:38:29 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 05:38:29 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture References: <12a.139bdc60.2a5668f5@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D259345.762F3C84@earthlink.net> Jeffrey Levine wrote: > Jim, I don't know the ratio, though it's been my impression there are far more first book competitions than opens. As for us, besides the numbers mentioned in the last message, we did one second book our first year (Anna Rabinowitz's *Darkling*), and our spring list will include one second book and one fourth book. In the fall, we're initiating our first open poetry competition -- calling it the Dorset Prize (because we're in Dorset, VT) -- and will have two winners. In addition, we've just started accepting submissions outside of contests from all comers (no reading fee). We held off taking second (and up) books until we could work out genuine distribution, but having just signed with Consortium (who distribute for BOA and Graywolf, among others), we feel we now have something rather substantial to offer more established poets. I suspect, as things progress, we'll do at least as many second/third/fourth books as first books. Our fiction contest, by the way, has always b! een a fully open competition. Thanks for the info, Jeffrey - I didn't quite get all that from the Tupelo web site. You'll no doubt be hearing from David G., me, and diety knows who else. - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Wherever you go, there you are" - Louis Simpson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org Poetserv: http://www.poetserv.com Homepage: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Fri Jul 5 08:41:39 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 05:41:39 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture References: <12a.139bdc60.2a5668f5@aol.com> <3D259345.762F3C84@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D259403.197FF2CD@earthlink.net> > > Thanks for the info, Jeffrey - I didn't quite get all that from the > Tupelo web site. You'll no doubt be hearing from David G., me, and > diety knows who else. > By the way, I do know how to spell "deity" - must be all those CNN spots on diets and the overweight nation crisis. - Jim From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Jul 5 09:13:33 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:13:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture: No Baudelaires in Babylon? In-Reply-To: <3D259345.762F3C84@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D25633D.981.180351@localhost> http://www.jackmagazine.com/essaytbradley.html "... Between then and now, the man known as the Great Cham of Literature came into existence, in a very big way. A dozen years before Jean Paul Marat climbed out of this town's glamorous sewers, Samuel Johnson had already caused the decidedly unglamorous gutters of London's Grub Street to re-echo with his rallying cry: "That man is a blockhead who ever wrote except for money!" Having done with patronage for good, the great lexicologist placed us at the beck and call of the book buying public at large. And the goodness of that news is unadulterated only if you insist on looking at it, once again, strictly from the book-hawker's point-of-view. Businessmen have taken the place of dukes and duchesses. Now, thanks to Dr. Johnson, if we want our stuff to see print, we have to kiss Si Newhouse's parvenu ass, instead of Atticus' equestrian buttocks. "Still, the question remains on the table: would you versify for the postmodern Atticus? How about for the Caesar of the New World Order? (Forget, for the moment, the truest words ever spoken: "All money is dirty money.") If they gave you a high six-figure advance against royalties on one of your novels, could they purchase your soul to the extent that you'd write Senator Bob Dole's acceptance speech at the 1996 Republican National Convention? That was the $800,000 question for Mark Helprin, America's closest moral (but not artistic) equivalent to Catullus. Guggenheim fellow, National Book Award nominee, recipient of the Penn-Faulkner Award and the Prix de Rome, Wall Street Journal contributing editor, senior fellow of a reactionary think tank in Indiana, Mark Helprin is responsible for such narcissistic abortions as Refiner's Fire, Winter's Tale, and A Soldier of the Great War. He answered the eight hundred-grand question in the affirmative. Again, Rexroth's words come to mind: "No literature of the past 200 years is of the slightest importance unless it is disaffiliated." ... " Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From hruggier at localnet.com Fri Jul 5 10:19:48 2002 From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri) Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:19:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture References: <12a.139bdc60.2a5668f5@aol.com> <3D259345.762F3C84@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D25AB04.ED412F29@localnet.com> Probably everybody on the list - good luck Jeffrey! James Cervantes wrote: > Jeffrey Levine wrote: > > > Jim, I don't know the ratio, though it's been my impression there are far more first book competitions than > opens. As for us, besides the numbers mentioned in the last message, we > did one second book our first year > (Anna Rabinowitz's *Darkling*), and our spring list will include one > second book and one fourth book. In the > fall, we're initiating our first open poetry competition -- calling it > the Dorset Prize (because we're in Dorset, > VT) -- and will have two winners. In addition, we've just started > accepting submissions outside of contests > from all comers (no reading fee). We held off taking second (and up) > books until we could work out genuine > distribution, but having just signed with Consortium (who distribute for > BOA and Graywolf, among others), > we feel we now have something rather substantial to offer more > established poets. I suspect, as things > progress, we'll do at least as many second/third/fourth books as first > books. Our fiction contest, by the way, > has always b! een a fully open competition. > > Thanks for the info, Jeffrey - I didn't quite get all that from the > Tupelo web site. You'll no doubt be hearing from David G., me, and > diety knows who else. > > - Jim > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > "Wherever you go, there you are" - Louis Simpson > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: jvcervantes at earthlink.net > Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > Poetserv: http://www.poetserv.com > Homepage: http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Jul 5 11:34:37 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 11:34:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List In-Reply-To: <003b01c2241a$843f8460$a8b2fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3D25844D.13380.2A8168@localhost> > And a repeated point: why do you believe certain > texts should be categorized as poetry? Or that > certain kinds of hum expression should be > categorized as texts? Why name anything? > --Bob G. It's the Socratic Fallacy, Bob -- you can't name it until you can define it; but in order to define it you have to know what it is in order to compare your definition with the real thing. So, for example, if you want to define something as "language poetry" you have to be able to distinguish "language poetry" from all other kinds of poetry, or you might find yourself using the wrong kind of poetry to compare to your definition, and that might make your definition look bad. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jul 5 17:21:14 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 17:21:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List References: <003b01c2241a$843f8460$a8b2fea9@j1c1k6> <3D259243.1A968F58@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002601c22469$e5b36320$88cffea9@j1c1k6> > Bob: Here's something up your alley: "Loaded Terminology of the Poetry > Wars" (by Robert Darling, from Expansive Poetry & Music Online) http://www.n2hos.com/acm/darl0198.html > - Jim, offering an instant digression - sort of Thanks, Jim. I couldn't make it more than halfway through the essay, but I did save it, so will probably try again some other time. Darling seems to me in an argument that ended fifty or more years ago. I don't know how loaded a word "organic form" is, but is subjective, and thus of little use for defining kinds of poetries, as far as I'm concerned--so I agree with part of what he's saying. --Bob G. From adead_poet at hotmail.com Sat Jul 6 15:24:06 2002 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 14:24:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service Message-ID: I review a lot of books on Amazon. And a large number of them are poetry. I've found that with a lot of great books, I'm the only one, or their might be one other. jason >Just curious: on this list we have quite a concentration of poetry-reading >fanatics. How many of us have reviewed books on Amazon or other such >sites? >How many regularly do so? > >Likewise, how many of us regularly *buy* new books of poetry? I've met >more >than a few poets who don't, it seems. > >Not pointing fingers here: just wondering about the stats for such things. >-- >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at mail.ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html >Poetry Library: >http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html >======================================== > > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From adead_poet at hotmail.com Sat Jul 6 15:34:37 2002 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 14:34:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] contest Message-ID: I've been thinking about the conversation about contests, and it seems that everyone is damning them all. Aren't there a few contests out there that you think generally produces a good book? Wouldn't there be a few contests that you would read the winners of? jason _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From gmcvay at patriot.net Sat Jul 6 15:52:39 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would. The National Poetry Series Open Competition picks five winners per year, and I always read, at the very least, the one that gets published on Sun & Moon. Nick Piombino picked Standard Schaefer's _Nova_ for them during the last couple of years, and I keep rereading it; it's fab. Gwyn --- "We share half our genome with the banana. This is more evident in some of my acquaintances than others." Sir Robert May, President of the Royal Society of London From MillB at aol.com Sat Jul 6 16:09:25 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 16:09:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] contest Message-ID: <83.1d2c9894.2a58a875@aol.com> I read Yale Younger Poets and anything Copper Canyon produces. From simon at ipfw.edu Sat Jul 6 18:12:32 2002 From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon) Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 17:12:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] contest Message-ID: Another publisher not yet mentioned: Without noticing initially, I've acquired several published by Sarabande. Each one year apart. Not all Sarabande's poetry selection is based on a contest, though, or is it? beth From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Jul 6 18:34:38 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 15:34:38 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] contest References: Message-ID: <3D27707E.6044304C@earthlink.net> I don't think anyone was trashing all contests or their results. As Gwyn noted, the New Poetry Series hits the mark frequently. Sarabande is also fairly consistent and, yes, they also have an open submission period besides the contest. - Jim Beth Simon wrote: > > Another publisher not yet mentioned: > Without noticing initially, I've acquired several published by > Sarabande. Each one year apart. Not all Sarabande's poetry selection is > based on a contest, though, or is it? > > beth > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Arielpf123 at aol.com Sat Jul 6 18:40:13 2002 From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:40:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] contest Message-ID: <3e.20be6f87.2a58cbcd@aol.com> Louisiana State University Press publishes the kind of books I seem most drawn to. Don't know if they have a contest. As for what publishers' contest winners I'd be most apt to buy/read....This may be naive, but I think most are good....and what I read isn't dependent on big publisher names, or prestige contests. To be chosen as one of 700 or so entries is an honor...and it takes a pretty good book to beat those odds. (I say that having read dozens of winners...and generally have been impressed). patf From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Jul 7 16:16:32 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 16:16:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] An idea for small service In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've no idea how many poetry books I buy each year, but I'm pretty sure I spend more on and buy more units of music CDs. I have written a few Amazon reviews, but for fiction and music, not poetry so far. I sometimes skim them, but don't read many closely. Hal "A sudden silence in the middle of a conversation suddenly brings us back to essentials: it reveals how dearly we must pay for the invention of speech." --E. M. Cioran Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Jul 7 16:16:33 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 16:16:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] CONPO List In-Reply-To: <003b01c2241a$843f8460$a8b2fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: { > No help here, Bob. Frankly, I think it's more important for people to { > be exposed to poetry they *don't* like. Serendipity rules! { { So, Hal, why would you be against the possibility of a reader's { serendipitously bumping into a KIND of poetry new to him in an essay on the { various kinds of poetry that are out there? And how would such { an essay keep an adventurous reader from happening upon kinds of poetry new { to him? No reason at all I can think of. I'm not against anybody's bumping into anything, any way, any how. Hal "language--the Riviera of consciousness" --Bob Perelman Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jul 7 19:21:47 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:21:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture Message-ID: <17e.ab7fb3e.2a5a270b@aol.com> In a message dated 7/4/02 1:26:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > In fact, Jim Finnegan's alternative sounds pretty attractive to me. But > you'd still need to work out some system of *selecting* which books got > subsidized in that manner, so I'm not sure its results would be utterly > different from the current system. David, the results wouldn't be changed; it's more a matter of how those many books get published. Eliot said poetry was a mug's game; but the contest system is a mugging: What a waste of effort; the press spends more time publishing its contest than its books. The poets spend their writing/reading time trying to keep up with who-judge/what-press/when- deadline, then copying, mailing hither and thither, on the long odds of winning. What a waste of human and fiscal resource. The system for selection is same old selection system that served poetry well for many years: An editor, hopefully a well-read & broad-minded one, selects those books she/he wants to publish. The subsidy is not bait offered by the poet to the press to publish his/her book. It's the other way around: The editor says I accept your book, I believe in the merits of your work, and I offer to publish (edit, design, typeset, print, market and distribute the book) the book under a sudsidy contract; the poet responds wtih the subsidy to help defray the investment made by the press and to vest her/himself in the success of the book: To read often and without due compensation, to schlep a box of books to a reading in case the organizers weren't very thoughtful, etc. Finnegan From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Jul 7 19:23:04 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:23:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Nijinsky in the Catskills" Message-ID: Nijinsky in the Catskills Three miles up from Phoenicia, across a stream by a little bridge on Stony Clove Lane, in a gray-painted dacha with greenish trim Nijinsky opens up his diary and begins to write: "Switzerland is sick because it is full of mountains." Then he looks out of the window in front of him and sighs at all the green, his skin crawls at the touch of the cool air last night's front brought in. "I do not like dry people, and therefore I do not like business people," he writes. Beneath the desk at which he sits to write, his feet begin to play. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jul 7 19:56:31 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:56:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Kenneth Koch died July 6 Message-ID: Subject: Kenneth Koch died on July 6 after a battle with leukaemia. Comments: To: edit at jacketmagazine.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Kenneth Koch died on July 6 after a battle with leukaemia. A few months ago he sent me a postcard telling me how honored and overwhelmed he was by the tributes in Jacket 15. They're still there: friends and admirers might like to browse through them again: Jacket # 15 http://jacketmagazine.com/15/ From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jul 7 20:04:36 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:04:36 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Kenneth Koch died July 6 Message-ID: <149.11174799.2a5a3114@aol.com> From: Ron Reply-To: ron.silliman at gte.net Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 08:08:09 -0400 To: POETICS at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Kenneth Koch, 1925 - 2002 July 7, 2002 Kenneth Koch, 77, Poet of New York School, Dies By ALAN FEUER New York Times Kenneth Koch, a poet of the New York School whose work combined the sardonic wit of a borscht-belt comic, the erotic whimsy of a Surrealist painter and the gritty wisdom of a scared young soldier, died yesterday after a long battle with leukemia at his home in Manhattan. He was 77. Mr. Koch's literary career spanned more than 50 years and resulted in the publication of at least 30 volumes of poetry and plays whose linguistic exuberance and experimental zest were bested only by their omnivorous subject matter. He wrote elegies, parodies, Dadaist dramas and fragmented shards of loosely structured verse on a palette of topics that ranged from his father's furniture business in southern Ohio to Japanese baseball stars to the pleasures of eating lunch. Mr. Koch (pronounced coke) was considered a founding member of the New York School, an avant-garde poetic movement that was forged in the Manhattan of the 1950's when the beer at the Cedar Tavern flowed as smoothly as the passionate talk about Abstract Expressionist art. He and his contemporaries =97 the poets, John Ashbery and Frank O'Hara, and the painters, Jane Freilicher and Larry Rivers =97 took up the brash, anti-establishment mantle of their beatnik predecessors, but with a more classically European touch and with less machismo and facial hair. Later in life, Mr. Koch became well known as a professor of poetry, mainly at Columbia University, where he lectured on literature and inspired budding writers for nearly 40 years. He was a spontaneous, high-octane teacher who was not above leaping on to desks to prove a point and who, for many years, taught writing to grade-school children, claiming that poetry was as thrilling as stickball. Kenneth Jay Koch was born Feb. 27, 1925 in Cincinnati, Ohio, the son of Stuart Koch, who owned a furniture store, and Lillian Koch, who wrote amateur literary reviews. After graduating high school, he served in the Philippines during World War II, a harrowing experience that he did not translate into verse until the very end of his life. When the war ended, Mr. Koch enrolled at Harvard. He studied writing with the poet Delmore Schwartz and embarked on a lifelong friendship with Mr. Ashbery. By his own account, he was hungry for the poet's life but na=EFve about the art of making poems. "I was so dumb I thought Yeats was pronounced Yeets," he said in an interview in 1977. "I think we may have been more conscious than many poets of the surface of the poem, and what was going on while we were writing and how we were using words," he said of the New York School in the same interview. "I don't think we saw any reason to resist humor in our poems." Indeed, Mr. Koch's poetry is at once lyrical and humorous, aching with emotion and achingly funny. He managed to write verse that is breathy and expansive in tone, yet still rooted in the American predilections for pop culture references and proper nouns. This is an excerpt from Mr. Koch's poem, "Thank You": The only thing I could publicize well would be my tooth, Which I could say came with my mouth and in a most engaging manner With my whole self, my body and including my mind, Spirits, emotions, spiritual essences, emotional substances, poetry, dreams, and lords Of my life, everything, all embraceleted with my tooth In a way that makes one wish to open the windows and scream "Hi!" to the heavens, And "Oh, come and take me away before I die in a minute!" "His great ability as a poet was to combine modernism and lyricism and to write poems that gave you a feeling as joyous as Whitman," said Ron Padgett, a former student of Mr. Koch's and a poet himself. Speaking of Mr. Koch's long poem, "The Duplications," one reviewer said it read like a collaboration between Lord Byron, Walt Disney, Frank Buck and Andre Breton. Collaboration was, in fact, a crucial part of Mr. Koch's art. He and Mr. Rivers, for instance, worked together on a series of painting-poems called "New York, 1950-1960" and "Post Cards." He also wrote the librettos to operas set to music by, among others, the composer Ned Rorem. Mr. Koch once told an interviewer that, as a child, he kept a little orange book named the "Scribble-in Book," which he filled with his sketches and musings. In high school, he set out to write what he called "obscene and angry" poems, which he showed to his junior-year English teacher, Katherine Lappa. Although he thought the verses would horrify Ms. Lappa, she told Mr. Koch =97 at least, as he recalled it =97 "That's exactly the way you should be feeling when you're 17 years old." This fall, two of his books will be issued posthumously =97 one contains many of his previously unpublished poems from the early 1950's, and the other is a gathering of new works. His most recent book was "New Addresses," a collection of apostrophes to abstract ideas like World War II and Judaism. He was a member of the American Academy of Arts and Letters and won several prizes over the course of his career, including the Bollingen Prize in 1995 and the Rebekah Johnson Bobbitt National Prize for Poetry in 1996. He was awarded three Fulbright scholarships and a National Endowment for the Arts grant. He is survived by his wife, Karen Koch; his daughter, Katherine Koch; and a grandson, Jesse Statman. From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Mon Jul 8 00:16:19 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 00:16:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koch Message-ID: Here's a favorite old one from Kenneth Koch: To You I love you as a sheriff searches for a walnut That will solve a murder case unsolved for years Because the murderer left it in the snow beside a window Through which he saw her head, connecting with Her shoulders by a neck, and laid a red Roof in her heart. For this we live a thousand years; For this we love, and we live because we love, we are not Inside a bottle, thank goodness! I love you as a Kid searches for a goat; I am crazier than shirttails In the wind, when you're near, a wind that blows from The big blue sea, so shiny so deep and so unlike us; I think I am bicycling across an Africa of green and white fields Always, to be near you, even in my heart When I'm awake, which swims, and I believe that you Are trustworthy as the sidewalk which leads me to The place where I again think of you, a new Harmony of thoughts! I love you as the sunlight leads the prow Of a ship which sails From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Mon Jul 8 00:16:22 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 00:16:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture In-Reply-To: <17e.ab7fb3e.2a5a270b@aol.com> Message-ID: Jim, sounds lovely, and please sign me up with any publishers you know of who are looking to revolutionize the system . . . . I guess what struck me immediately upon reading about your proposal was that not only would the results would remain similar, but so would much of the process. For most of the politicking and gamesmanship and effort that currently occurs would also occur under your plan. Hopeful poets would still do all that photocopying and mailing and deadline-minding and sussing out of editorial tastes, etc. Because unless you move to an all-solicitation mode (noxious for several reasons), the same number of poets would be competing for roughly the same number of possible publications. It would still be a lottery or contest, in that sense. Editors would also still be tempted to reward friends and former students, and so forth. The main difference would be that the losers (most of us, most of the time) would be out less money, right? Just postage and photocopying and subscriptions to AWP Chronicle and so on. Maybe that's reason enough to buy into your plan. I seriously think it sounds like a good idea--wonder if it would seem so to a publisher? Probably the largest impediment, aside from the political considerations, would be getting over the stigma of subsidy--making it seem (and be) different from vanity press publication. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== > In a message dated 7/4/02 1:26:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > >> In fact, Jim Finnegan's alternative sounds pretty attractive to me. But >> you'd still need to work out some system of *selecting* which books got >> subsidized in that manner, so I'm not sure its results would be utterly >> different from the current system. > > David, the results wouldn't be changed; it's more a matter of how > those many books get published. Eliot said poetry was a mug's game; > but the contest system is a mugging: What a waste of effort; the press > spends more time publishing its contest than its books. The poets spend > their writing/reading time trying to keep up with who-judge/what-press/when- > deadline, then copying, mailing hither and thither, on the long odds of > winning. What a waste of human and fiscal resource. > The system for selection is same old selection system that served > poetry well for many years: An editor, hopefully a well-read & broad-minded > one, > selects those books she/he wants to publish. The subsidy is not bait offered > by the poet to the press to publish his/her book. It's the other way around: > The editor says I accept your book, I believe in the merits of your work, and > I offer to publish (edit, design, typeset, print, market and distribute the > book) > the book under a sudsidy contract; the poet responds wtih the subsidy to help > defray the investment made by the press and to vest her/himself in the > success of the book: To read often and without due compensation, to schlep > a box of books to a reading in case the organizers weren't very thoughtful, > etc. > Finnegan From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Jul 8 08:51:12 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 08:51:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture In-Reply-To: <17e.ab7fb3e.2a5a270b@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D295280.8077.16039B@localhost> On 7 Jul 2002, at 19:21, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > The system for selection is same old selection system that > served poetry well for many years: An editor, hopefully a well-read & > broad-minded one, selects those books she/he wants to publish. Aye, there's the rub! We now have editors who proudly proclaim they've never read, and cannot read, Tennyson. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Mon Jul 8 10:59:17 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 10:59:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture In-Reply-To: <3D295280.8077.16039B@localhost> Message-ID: > Aye, there's the rub! We now have editors who proudly proclaim > they've never read, and cannot read, Tennyson. > > Marcus Bales > Well, it's certainly not a *new* rub, if that's your implication. In the days of Tennyson's greatest reputation, we had editors who proudly, etc., were unable to read Whitman, and took it upon themselves to "correct" Dickinson's errors. The great wheel turns and turns. . . . -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Jul 8 11:52:32 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:52:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture In-Reply-To: References: <3D295280.8077.16039B@localhost> Message-ID: <3D297D00.5707.BC110E@localhost> > > Aye, there's the rub! We now have editors who proudly proclaim > > they've never read, and cannot read, Tennyson. > > Marcus Bales Graham: > Well, it's certainly not a *new* rub, if that's your implication. In the > days of Tennyson's greatest reputation, we had editors who proudly, etc., > were unable to read Whitman, and took it upon themselves to "correct" > Dickinson's errors. You're making an entirely different case, David -- you're saying that the poetry of Whitman and Dickinson, when it was contemporary poetry, was underappreciated by the mainstream editors of the day. What I'm saying is that at least one contemporary editor of our acquaintance proudly claims never to have read, and says he cannot read, an acknowledged master of English poetry, not that he has not read, or cannot read, contemporary poetry. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Mon Jul 8 16:06:29 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 16:06:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tasty Tennyson (was Contest Culture) In-Reply-To: <3D297D00.5707.BC110E@localhost> Message-ID: I understood your point, Marcus, but perhaps I should have been more explicit with mine, which was that Taste, and difference thereof, is always a matter of contention. I suspect arguments that seem to presume otherwise. That there are editors around who don't cotton to Tennyson fails to alarm me much. Same thing was true in his day, as a matter of fact. Amazingly, there are editors today who don't like Kenneth Koch, Dana Gioia, Seamus Heaney, or David Graham--just as in 1890 there were editors who preferred Elijah M. Stodgepuss to Emily Dickinson, or who thought Whitman was better than Shakespeare, to name just two opinions I don't share. Blindness operates forward as well as backwards, in any case, and from my perspective those Whitman-blind editors I was referring to look a bit more foolish in the long run than someone today who finds Tennyson a bit musty. De gustibus... David Graham -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== > Graham: >> Well, it's certainly not a *new* rub, if that's your implication. In the >> days of Tennyson's greatest reputation, we had editors who proudly, etc., >> were unable to read Whitman, and took it upon themselves to "correct" >> Dickinson's errors. > > You're making an entirely different case, David -- you're saying that > the poetry of Whitman and Dickinson, when it was contemporary > poetry, was underappreciated by the mainstream editors of the day. > > What I'm saying is that at least one contemporary editor of our > acquaintance proudly claims never to have read, and says he > cannot read, an acknowledged master of English poetry, not that > he has not read, or cannot read, contemporary poetry. > > Marcus Bales From marcus at designerglass.com Mon Jul 8 16:34:46 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:34:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tasty Tennyson (was Contest Culture) In-Reply-To: References: <3D297D00.5707.BC110E@localhost> Message-ID: <3D29BF26.1021.A465C@localhost> Graham: > ... Taste, and difference thereof, is always > a matter of contention. I suspect arguments that seem to presume otherwise.<< Sure taste is a matter of contention, but one expects that contention to be a result of actual information, and not mere prejudice. Graham: > That there are editors around who don't cotton to Tennyson fails to alarm me > much. Same thing was true in his day, as a matter of fact.<< You're making the same argument all over again -- that Tennyson's poetry when it was contemporary was not universally admired is not the point I'm making. I'm pointing out that our contemporary editors who refuse to read Tennyson are not merely failing to "cotton to" him -- they are proudly displaying ignorance, and arguing that their tastes are worthy based on that ignorance. Graham: > Amazingly, there are editors today who don't like Kenneth Koch, Dana Gioia, > Seamus Heaney, or David Graham--just as in 1890 there were editors who > preferred Elijah M. Stodgepuss to Emily Dickinson, or who thought Whitman > was better than Shakespeare, to name just two opinions I don't share.< This is just the same argument you made the first time; that it's hard to recognize "the best" contemporary poetry. My point is not that -- my point is to criticize the notion that a contemporary editor should be proud to be ignorant of a poet that is widely agreed to be one of the best in English. > Blindness operates forward as well as backwards, in any case, and from my > perspective those Whitman-blind editors I was referring to look a bit more > foolish in the long run than someone today who finds Tennyson a bit musty.<< If only it were that it was finding "Tennyson a bit musty" -- but that's not the case, David -- it's a proud ignorance of Tennyson, a deliberate lack of reading, and a pride in that lack of reading that astounds and alarms me. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jul 8 21:25:54 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:25:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture References: <3D295280.8077.16039B@localhost> Message-ID: <004301c226e7$94909780$ee26fea9@j1c1k6> > Aye, there's the rub! We now have editors who proudly proclaim > they've never read, and cannot read, Tennyson. > Marcus Bales And we have at least one periodical editor who believes a person who has read little or no poetry that is not mainstream can be considered "widely-read." --Bob G. From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Mon Jul 8 23:39:20 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 23:39:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tasty Tennyson In-Reply-To: <3D29BF26.1021.A465C@localhost> Message-ID: Marcus, I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall anyone being proudly ignorant of Tennyson. I do recall someone finding Tennyson's verse alien to his sensibilities, a rather different matter--and that's why I found myself ruminating about taste. In any case, I'm happy to stipulate for the record that proud ignorance is, more often than not, an unhappy fate. Need I repeat that I'm suspicious when taste is presented as something like law? But, we've been round on *that* carousel before. . . . The problem with being astounded and alarmed at ignorance, proud or otherwise, is that it can so easily eat up your whole day. So I'm going to let this threadlet unravel as it will--I'm done with Tennyson for a while. I think I'll read some Kenneth Koch, actually. Does anyone happen to have "Fresh Air" on disk? I'm away from my books for a few weeks. . . . David Graham -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Tue Jul 9 00:00:45 2002 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:00:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Tasty Tennyson Message-ID: <15c.100225d4.2a5bb9ed@aol.com> In a message dated 7/8/2002 11:39:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > I think I'll read some Kenneth Koch, actually. Does anyone happen to have > "Fresh Air" on disk? I'm away from my books for a few weeks. . . . > > David Graham > No, but I found this, apparently one of his early poems. It has a good beat. You can dance to it: O Sorrow, cruel fellowship, O Priestess in the vaults of Death, O sweet and bitter in a breath, What whispers from thy lying lip? "The stars," she whispers, "blindly run; A web is wov'n across the sky; From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jul 9 09:10:18 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:10:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rumble In The Desert In-Reply-To: References: <3D297D00.5707.BC110E@localhost> Message-ID: <3D2AA87A.20627.2ABA59@localhost> >From the Toronto Globe & Mail: SHERI-D WILSON Saturday, July 6, 2002 Rumble in the desert TAG TEAM POETRY IN TAOS: The stakes are high, the opponents are pumped and the proverbial fur is flying in this slugfest of wordsmiths. Who will land the knockout punch -- the red-headed dames or the grizzled veterans? THE BOUT Donned in his light blue Ben-Hur baseball cap, Peter Rabbit announces: "Tonight's card. From the El Taoseno restaurant, in beautiful downtown Taos, New Mexico, the World Heavyweight Poetry Association presents the third annual tag- team event, featuring four poets. I'm calling the first team, "The Geezers." From Boulder, Colorado, by way of the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics, we have Anselm (the Finn) Hollo. And from New Orleans by way of Romania, former World Heavyweight Champion Poet, Andrei Codrescu." The men mount the stage. "And Ladies and Gentlemen from Canada, our Canada, where every dollar is worth $1.50: Jill Battson. And from Calgary, Alberta, we have Sheri-D Wilson. I'm calling them, "The Divas." Give it up for our Canadian neighbours." We swim up to the stage with rarefied glade. Rabbit flips the American coin. Codrescu calls it, "heads." Heads it is, which make us tails. They call it. We go first. All right you Beautiful Geezers, let's get it on. ROUND ONE Diva (Wilson): Jill Battson and I take our mikes. Tension is building and blood flows wild. I throw my first punch with Airplane Paula and the crowd starts buzzing with excitement. Battson follows with her Hitching poem and the crowd responds with whistles and applause. Bell rings, I feel hot with wordless altitudes of excitement. We come in under the five-minute mark. Geezer (Codrescu): Did they hurt us? Definitely. The crowd likes them and, worse, I like them too. Wilson's Airplane Paula, with wicked satire, bookends Battson's narratives of travel and romance. Wilson dances in places and times everything right. Not as light as I'd have liked. This is a shared round so I go first and open with to a young poet, a grumpy complaint about the young, who are greedy for fame and ungrateful to their elders. It's relentless, but it's also funny and there is sex-challenge in it, a twist nobody expects. The audience, two-thirds of which I'm willing to bet is over 40, appreciates that. Kids! They don't call! They don't write! Take that! All of this hard bitching takes two minutes, which leaves room for two of Anselm's one-minute sonnets. He backs me up with more irony and abuse, widening the range to take on cosmos, textuality and faux anthropology. He also mentions his pets. The audience likes us but I'm not sure it's deference to age, politeness or familarity. What we need is spontaneous delight. Still, I think we won this round. Bell rings. ROUND TWO Diva: Damn. Bastards. They're funny, sex-driven, quick-witted, smart old foxes. It's a love-hate relationship already. Battson pulls out her deadly Circus poem, which finishes "I feel the rasping, sweet liquid/of the peeled grape/across my reluctant tongue." The Geezers are obviously taken aback and, after Battson completes the poem, they are deep in conference mode. I flip Codrescu the bird with my eyes, as a form of underhanded encouragement. Geezer: Hollo steps up to bat with "Now that the empire done struck back/how come everybody's feeling like merde?" While Anselm politicks widely with self-conscious irony, I glance over at Wilson who looks as if she's thinking about what to wear at the victory party. She's defiant. We'll see about that. I'm an old lion. No sudden moves until she relaxes. Then I pounce. I can feel the audience tensing, their brains trying to override their animal sympathy with the divas. Go, brains, go! There is ringing. ROUND THREE Diva: I mount the podium with Bunhead to Bard, a poem about a woman who decides to be a writer and ends up with a table strapped onto her back, with the confidence of a mallard. If I had a tutu I'd be mistaken for a swan, legs kicking torpedo underneath. Don't remember much more than that during the poem, but I must've done something right because our opponents seemed slightly stunned. Geezer: Sheri-D killed us with her pomo tale. Not only is the humour and pathos up front, but her face is a moving canvas for the emotions of her character, and her hands don't stand still for a minute. I'd put it all down to acting, except the text and gestures match. All that energy! I find myself wanting to jump up and make her be still. But I'm a geezer. Dignified. I regard her with heavy-lidded, half-hooded lizard eyes. You do fire; we'll do icy humour. Actually,Bunhead to Bard is one of the funniest stories I ever heard and I have the feeling, as does the audience, that this woman is filled to bursting with stories, like a Portuguese wine skin. But I got humour, too, not to worry. I hit them withHow I Got to America, which begins "I swam over a barbwire fence," and then goes into a series of absurd escapes from Romania and surreal arrivals in America. In-built interest. Everyone wants to know how come I'm so weird and why I talk funny. Ring. ROUND FOUR Diva: Codrescu is absolutely hilarious. I want to shake him up. The audience is in the poetry flow, "let's go surfing, Jill." From our seats, Battson and I begin chanting a poem entitled Men, Min, Ming, Mang. It makes fun of the stupid things men think, say and do. I give the boys, who are seated behind us, a one- two with my poetry hips just to scare them with a bit of tail- feather action. The women in the audience all live on the same paradise island and they all agree with my observations about the opposite sex. Geezer: We both step up to our mikes. Anselm steps into the vortex they've left behind and stills the agitated air with a solemn political sonnet damning the current bad guys. That always works in Taos, as it does in every shrinking island of idealism left in the USA (islands populated, incidentally, mostly by geezers and well-brought-up, hip children of hippies). Anselm damns, condemns, ironically moves away, returns to the craft of writing, to the wisdom of age(s), and throws in some Latin for good measure. Erudition is sexy. I follow withWriters, a paean to age, pathos, and healthy animal crudity. Still, we may have lost this round. Recess. Ring. ROUND FIVE Diva: Battson and I do a rally round. On being a Poet, Good- bye Poem and Roses. Our mood flows together seamlessly. Geezer: The time has come to show that guys have feelings, too. We have come to a place where the women seem a lot more sensitive, human, warm. I readAs Tears Go By, the title taken from a Marianne Faithfull song. I'm unaware that Wilson and Faithfull know each other, but so much the better. This poem is a tear-jerker. My mother is in it. History. Jews. Hard to top. The audience comes close. Here, here, kitty, kitty! Weep, ye hypocrites! ROUND SIX Diva: Codrescu orates a cuttingly witty poem about the river of his aging poet tears. Ye gads and little fishes, I lose myself in his poem and totally forget I am on stage. Austin's Funeral Home, Battson's articulate and moving poem about the death of her mother, is next up to bat. She throws it down with the grace of the Pope when he was alive. Geezer: We slowly move to our mikes. Hollo replies to Battson with "Private they are, the cons of grief/impossibly private . . ." "Once you've said something, you can't unsay it . . ." We are now fully locked in a contest of sorrow, hearts heavy, no way out for the audience. Except I do let them out, sort of, when I readBad girls with Glasses, a sure-fire signal to all the women with glasses in the audience to love me. Or else. It's not quite working, for some reason. Too much heavy stuff went down before from both sides. Ring. ROUND SEVEN Diva: The edge of poetry is starting to sharpen and so are our poetic tongues. We kick off with Battson's jazz riff about how the language of music in the saxophone (of musician Frank Morgan) resonates a focused projection of soul in Morgan's Bones. I jump off the ledge of risk and read my poem about the demise of crow --Crow Fusion.Anselm Hollo is well-known for his infamous crow poems but I remember my father's advice and ease. Geezer: They are now in their element: rhythm, riffing, jazz. This will be a difficult solo round for Anselm Hollo, who moves the focus from body to mind again, with a bridge of humour.Travelling into the past on the Internet . . .warns the audience that the ancient writers who carved tablets are with us and our keyboards. ROUND EIGHT Diva: Eat crow. I knew old Geezer Hollo would counter with one of my favourite poems which includes the crow. Okay. All right. No more Mrs. Nice Poet. I pull out Spinsters Hanging in Trees, knowing no man could possibly stand a chance! Lick these licks boys. Geezer: I think I'll just throw this one. I'll give full vent to my bitter invective in When the Children Go Bad, which excoriates art dilettantes. I follow with The American Dream, a TV-derived piece about American ontology. It's funny, but doesn't have the force ofSpinsters.I sit down, conscious that we are under time. Better to leave them wanting more. I have no idea who will win but I feel, as the audience does, that we had a hell of a poetry ride. I feel more than respect for our opponents. I blush. Anselm looks pleased. I glance over to Wilson. She looks warm and barely suppressing a smile. I wink at her. Battson looks serious. Whatever happens, we gave them their money's worth, not American, Canadian, Romanian, Finnish, or Australian -- the hard currency of poetry. Gold, baby, and cardamon. THE JUDGES Diva: It doesn't matter who wins. This has been a get-down get-dirty fabulous night of poetry. I feel elated and all I can think about is talking further with our stunningly beautiful challengers. Peter Rabbit takes the stage: "Judge #1: 5 rounds for the Geezers, 3 rounds for the Divas." The Yankee crowd boos. "Judge #2: 3 rounds for the Geezers, 5 rounds for the Divas." The crowd cheers. "Judge #3: 4 rounds for the Geezers, 4 rounds for the Divas." "Ladies and gentlemen, we have a dead heat." Diva: It's the dreaded tie; sudden death, which Battson and I hadn't planned for, and to be quite honest at this point I think it's fixed. We move into a round of sudden death. And it is. They take us down with their well-aged finesse. Geezers' greatest hits! And you know, I couldn't care less. I love the process. And as it turns out, we did win, in the bout of poetry exchange. IN THIS CORNER Calgary/Vancouver author Sheri-D Wilson has four collections of poetry and a CD, Sweet Taste of Lightning. This fall she will launch a poetry collection entitled Between Lovers with Arsenal Pulp Press. She has performed at festivals around Canada, the U.S., South Africa and Europe. Jill Battson, a Toronto poet, playwright, performer and activist, has two books of poetry, published by Insomniac Press. Her one-woman show, How I Learned to Live with Obsession, is playing at Toronto's Fringe festival. IN THIS CORNER Andrei Codrescu, the Romanian-born former World Heavyweight Champion Poet, teaches writing at Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge, La., and edits Exquisite Corpse: A Journal of Letters and Life. He lives in New Orleans. His books include The Hole in the Flag: An Exile's Tale of Return, Blood Countess, and Alien Candor: Selected Poems. Anselm Hollo is a lifelong associate of several schools of American poetry including Black Mountain, Beat, New York and Language. His books include Corvus and Caws and Causeries: Around Poetry and Poets. He teaches at the Jack Kerouac School of Poetics at Naropa University in Boulder, Colo. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jul 9 09:39:41 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:39:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture In-Reply-To: <004301c226e7$94909780$ee26fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3D2AAF5D.2614.45A2E6@localhost> > > Aye, there's the rub! We now have editors who proudly proclaim > > they've never read, and cannot read, Tennyson. > > Marcus Bales > > And we have at least one periodical editor who > believes a person who has read little or no poetry > that is not mainstream can be considered "widely-read." > --Bob G. Bob, this seems to be an odd sort of misperception on your part. Would you say that someone who was familiar with 90% of the sorts of cars was "widely familiar" with cars? Does he or she have to be au courant with every garage mechanic who thinks he or she has the next idea for using pee as fuel before you'll acknowledge that he or she is "widely familiar" with cars? Why, then, do you claim that someone familiar with 90% of the poetry in the mainstream is not "widely read" in poetry? Do you say he or she has to be familiar with every unpublished poet in the language before you'll acknowledge that he or she is "widely read in poetry"? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jul 9 10:01:05 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:01:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tasty Tennyson In-Reply-To: References: <3D29BF26.1021.A465C@localhost> Message-ID: <3D2AB461.6990.593BE0@localhost> > Marcus, I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall anyone > being proudly ignorant of Tennyson. I do recall someone finding Tennyson's > verse alien to his sensibilities, a rather different matter--and that's why > I found myself ruminating about taste.<< Ah, well, my recollection of the matter, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, is that the person in question declared, at first in response to a poem of Tennyson's, "Ulysses", that someone posted, and later when challenged about whether familiarity with Tennyson might not be at least on the chart for poetry editors, that he had never read, and could not read, and, thus, would not read, Tennyson. > In any case, I'm happy to stipulate for the record that proud ignorance is, > more often than not, an unhappy fate.< I agree. I've been proudly ignorant more often than I care to remember. And wrong every time. > Need I repeat that I'm suspicious when taste is presented as something like > law? But, we've been round on *that* carousel before. . . .<< Hmm. I'm not suggesting that everyone has to like or admire or read Tennyson for fun. But I am suggesting that a familiarity, even a "wide familiarity" with Tennyson ought to be at least part of anyone's pallette who decides to hang out a shingle as an editor of poetry. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Tue Jul 9 12:28:05 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:28:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tasty Tennyson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David's use of the carousel metaphor impels me to quote a contemporary songwriter who probably never read Tennyson but did probably read Gwendolyn Brooks's "We Real Cool" because unmistakeable echoes appear in his "long-poem" "Rosalita": You know the Tilt-a-Whirl down on the South Beach drag? I got on it and my shirt got caught. And it kept me spinning...didn't think I'd ever get off. ellen s. -- From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Jul 9 11:56:07 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:56:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture References: <3D2AAF5D.2614.45A2E6@localhost> Message-ID: <001f01c22761$239d0840$d558fea9@j1c1k6> > Would you say that someone who was familiar with 90% of the > sorts of cars was "widely familiar" with cars? Yes. But a person who is familiar with mainstream poetry only--that is, conventional free verse, and standard formal verse--is NOT familiar with 90% of the SORTS of poetry extant. He is perhaps familiar with about 30% of the SORTS of poetry extant. He is thus like a mechanic familiar with family cars (hatchbacks as well as sedans!) but not hot rods, race cars, sports cars, etc. 90% of cars in the US are probably family cars, but they certainly don't make up 90% of the sorts of cars there are. --Bob G. From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Tue Jul 9 12:22:46 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:22:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tasty Tennyson In-Reply-To: <15c.100225d4.2a5bb9ed@aol.com> Message-ID: Yes, I like early Kenneth Koch quite a lot. Here's another: How fares it with the happy dead? For here the man is more and more; But he forgets the days before God shut the doorways of his head. The days have vanish'd, tone and tint, And yet perhaps the hoarding sense Gives out at times (he knows not whence) A little flash, a mystic hint; And in the long harmonious years (If Death so taste Lethean springs), May some dim touch of earthly things Surprise thee ranging with thy peers. If such a dreamy touch should fall, O turn thee round, resolve the doubt; My guardian angel will speak out In that high place, and tell thee all. -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ======================================== From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:00:45 EDT To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tasty Tennyson In a message dated 7/8/2002 11:39:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: I think I'll read some Kenneth Koch, actually. Does anyone happen to have "Fresh Air" on disk? I'm away from my books for a few weeks. . . . David Graham No, but I found this, apparently one of his early poems. It has a good beat. You can dance to it: O Sorrow, cruel fellowship, O Priestess in the vaults of Death, O sweet and bitter in a breath, What whispers from thy lying lip? "The stars," she whispers, "blindly run; A web is wov'n across the sky; From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jul 9 13:39:47 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:39:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture In-Reply-To: <001f01c22761$239d0840$d558fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3D2AE7A3.22607.120AEF@localhost> Marcus: > > Would you say that someone who was familiar with 90% of the > > sorts of cars was "widely familiar" with cars? BobGrumman: > Yes. But a person who is familiar with mainstream > poetry only--that is, conventional free verse, > and standard formal verse--is NOT familiar with > 90% of the SORTS of poetry extant.<< Ah, this seems to be the crux of our disagreement, then. It seems to me that "widely read" is not a requirement to be familiar with any given percent of the KINDS of poetry unless something in the context requres it. For example, if one is speaking of the problems of translating German poetry, and one refers in that context to someone who is widely read, I'd expect that that person was widely read in German poetry. But I don't think that your notion of some percent of all poetry includes German and Hindu and Japanese and Inuit, does it? Or are you seriously putting forward the notion that no one is and no one can be "widely read" in poetry because you ARE including all possible kinds of poetry in every language, extant and extinct? BobGrumman: > He is perhaps familiar with about 30% of the SORTS of > poetry extant. He is thus like a mechanic familiar > with family cars (hatchbacks as well as sedans!) but not hot rods, race > cars, sports cars, etc. 90% of cars in the US are probably family cars, but > they certainly don't make up 90% of the sorts of cars there are.<< But no one expects one's neighborhood mechanic to be able to substitute for whoever falls ill along Gasoline Alley the day before the Indianapolis 500, nor to be able to chop your motorcycle before lunch and change the transmission on a Hummer for the Army after. But nonetheless he or she might be able reasonably to claim to be widely familiar with cars -- because the context in which he or she, and we, are speaking about auto mechanics is almost always going to be about the family car, and not about some specialty conversion vehicle. Now, perhaps the problem we have in communicating on this issue is that you, metaphorically one of the most extreme of the converters, don't regard people who can change the transmission on my van as "widely familiar" with cars because they can't make my van into a working submersible vehicle. But it seems to me that most people most of the time would regard those who can change the transmission on an ordinary vehicle to be "widely familiar" with cars. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Jul 9 14:02:57 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:02:57 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture References: <3D2AE7A3.22607.120AEF@localhost> Message-ID: <3D2B2551.C6FF954F@earthlink.net> What's that line of Yogi Berra's on the t.v. ad: "They give you cash, which is just as good as money."??? - an innocent bystander Marcus Bales wrote: > > Marcus: > > > Would you say that someone who was familiar with 90% of the > > > sorts of cars was "widely familiar" with cars? > > BobGrumman: > > Yes. But a person who is familiar with mainstream > > poetry only--that is, conventional free verse, > > and standard formal verse--is NOT familiar with > > 90% of the SORTS of poetry extant.<< > > Ah, this seems to be the crux of our disagreement, then. > > It seems to me that "widely read" is not a requirement to be > familiar with any given percent of the KINDS of poetry unless > something in the context requres it. For example, if one is > speaking of the problems of translating German poetry, and one > refers in that context to someone who is widely read, I'd expect > that that person was widely read in German poetry. But I don't > think that your notion of some percent of all poetry includes > German and Hindu and Japanese and Inuit, does it? > > Or are you seriously putting forward the notion that no one is and > no one can be "widely read" in poetry because you ARE including > all possible kinds of poetry in every language, extant and extinct? > > BobGrumman: > > He is perhaps familiar with about 30% of the SORTS of > > poetry extant. He is thus like a mechanic familiar > > with family cars (hatchbacks as well as sedans!) but not hot rods, race > > cars, sports cars, etc. 90% of cars in the US are probably family cars, but > > they certainly don't make up 90% of the sorts of cars there are.<< > > But no one expects one's neighborhood mechanic to be able to > substitute for whoever falls ill along Gasoline Alley the day before > the Indianapolis 500, nor to be able to chop your motorcycle before > lunch and change the transmission on a Hummer for the Army > after. But nonetheless he or she might be able reasonably to claim > to be widely familiar with cars -- because the context in which he or > she, and we, are speaking about auto mechanics is almost always > going to be about the family car, and not about some specialty > conversion vehicle. > > Now, perhaps the problem we have in communicating on this issue > is that you, metaphorically one of the most extreme of the > converters, don't regard people who can change the transmission > on my van as "widely familiar" with cars because they can't make > my van into a working submersible vehicle. > > But it seems to me that most people most of the time would regard > those who can change the transmission on an ordinary vehicle to > be "widely familiar" with cars. > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Jul 9 14:26:35 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:26:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture Message-ID: With one small emendation, this is from a posting by Gary Sullivan to another list. Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard HOW POETRY GENERATIONS WORK Tennyson o--------> shrimp cocktail (dead end) \ \ * \ Raj \ * Kapoor \ * V drugs {wet surfaces} Awaara (50 mi.)---> ` \ . \ ( TANG|NESCAFE \ \ \ "jittery, ugh" / * / * ` , (patchouli) . O! . ` . / [SCREEN] / | | / ||| ~ \ | ^ <----measure o /| \ white noise . . . . ` , ` . Vol [1=======(o)===10] O .-. _,,,,,_ .-. o ( , ' : : ' , ) / : : \ ; 0.---.0 ; .-------. \ / _ \ / ----( `~,*'^ ) \ | (_) | / ------- ." `\ -'- /` ". / `"""""` \ /------ / .' .-== '. \ / po / / / .-=='\ \ / em / ( / \ )/____ / '-;`. .';-' /_ `-.______ .-` __\ /` `\ / `\ / `\ \ | / \ | / `'--'` `'--'` From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Tue Jul 9 14:53:13 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:53:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Koch again Message-ID: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Jul 9 20:39:24 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:39:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture References: <3D2AE7A3.22607.120AEF@localhost> Message-ID: <001801c227aa$52f7f2a0$fcddfea9@j1c1k6> > BobGrumman: > > Yes. But a person who is familiar with mainstream > > poetry only--that is, conventional free verse, > > and standard formal verse--is NOT familiar with > > 90% of the SORTS of poetry extant.<< > Ah, this seems to be the crux of our disagreement, then. > It seems to me that "widely read" is not a requirement to be > familiar with any given percent of the KINDS of poetry unless > something in the context requres it. For example, if one is > speaking of the problems of translating German poetry, and one > refers in that context to someone who is widely read, I'd expect > that that person was widely read in German poetry. But I don't > think that your notion of some percent of all poetry includes > German and Hindu and Japanese and Inuit, does it? Of course not. We're talking about the American Poetry Scene (or the English-Speaking Poetry Scene). > Or are you seriously putting forward the notion that no one is and > no one can be "widely read" in poetry because you ARE including > all possible kinds of poetry in every language, extant and extinct? No, in my analogy, I showed what I meant: a widely-read critic of poetry should know more than free verse and formal verse just as a mechanic widely conversant with cars should know about more kinds of cars than hatchbacks and conventional sedans. I certainly never suggested a person, to be widely read in poetry, should be familiar with EVERY kind of poetry written. Who is? All I ask is that he be familiar with 75% or more or them rather than with just 30% (however wonderfully superior that 30% seems to all other kinds of poetry). > BobGrumman: > > He is perhaps familiar with about 30% of the SORTS of > > poetry extant. He is thus like a mechanic familiar > > with family cars (hatchbacks as well as sedans!) but not hot rods, race > > cars, sports cars, etc. 90% of cars in the US are probably family cars, but > > they certainly don't make up 90% of the sorts of cars there are.<< > > But no one expects one's neighborhood mechanic to be able to > substitute for whoever falls ill along Gasoline Alley the day before > the Indianapolis 500, nor to be able to chop your motorcycle before > lunch and change the transmission on a Hummer for the Army > after. Right. But you don't call him widely conversant with cars if he can't. You call him conversant with the small variety of cars he has to be. >But nonetheless he or she might be able reasonably to claim > to be widely familiar with cars -- because the context in which he or > she, and we, are speaking about auto mechanics is almost always > going to be about the family car, and not about some specialty > conversion vehicle. I have a friend who IS widely familiar with cars. Ergo, all kinds of people bring him cars mediocre mechanics can't deal with. If you're interested in cars, you'll want to know who knows about many of them, not about who knows about the most used kinds. > Now, perhaps the problem we have in communicating on this issue > is that you, metaphorically one of the most extreme of the > converters, don't regard people who can change the transmission > on my van as "widely familiar" with cars because they can't make > my van into a working submersible vehicle. Your attempt at a reductio absurdum is close to insanely bad. I DO consider mechanics who can't do specialized things to a race car, say, as NOT widely conversant with cars--probably, that is, because (see above) I do NOT think one need know ALL varieties of cars to be widely-familiar with cars, just a reasonably large spectrum of them. > But it seems to me that most people most of the time would regard > those who can change the transmission on an ordinary vehicle to > be "widely familiar" with cars. I wouldn't know. I don't care. If they did, they would be wrong. The mechanic analogy is poor, anyway, even if correctly used. A mechanic is not concerned to enlighten a public about cars, only to fix them. There's nothing wrong with a critic's enlightening his public only about a narrow range of kinds of poems--but it's ridiculous to call him widely-read. If you do, then what do you call a critic who writes about all the kinds of poetry your "widely-read" critic does, and ten other kinds, as well? Anyway, it's hard for me to comprehend how anyone interested in poetry would not want to know about ALL POSSIBLE kinds of poetry--in all possible languages, in fact. He can't, but he should try. (Although I'm not too sure English doesn't contain just about all kinds of currently written poetry. I'd love to find out about any it does not.) And I don't know why a critic would feel content just telling us about poets who work in received forms with received techniques. It must be because I'm an Aquarius. Urp, Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jul 10 08:40:57 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:40:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture In-Reply-To: <001801c227aa$52f7f2a0$fcddfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3D2BF319.665.326325@localhost> Marcus: > > Or are you seriously putting forward the notion that no one is > > and no one can be "widely read" in poetry because you ARE including > > all possible kinds of poetry in every language, extant and extinct? BobGrumman: > No, in my analogy, I showed what > I meant: a widely-read critic of poetry should know > more than free verse and formal verse just as a mechanic widely conversant > with cars should know about more kinds of cars than hatchbacks and > conventional sedans. << But you also admitted that 90% of American cars are such family vehicles, just as probably 90% or more of American poetry is free verse and formal verse. This, as I said before, is the crux of our disagreement about what "widely-read" means. It seems to me that familiarity with a good deal of the 90% of American poetry is just what most native speakers of English do mean when they say "widely read", while you, because you do not write that kind of verse, inveigh against the use of "widely read" in that sense because you want your kind of poetry to be a requirement of "widely read". Bob Grumman: > I certainly never suggested > a person, to be widely read in poetry, should be > familiar with EVERY kind of poetry written. Who > is? All I ask is that he be familiar with 75% or more or them rather than > with just 30% (however wonderfully superior that 30% seems to all other > kinds of poetry).<< Well, we have a disagreement here, then, because it seems to me that "widely read" refers to a familiarity with some large proportion of the whole of a field, not familiarity with some large proportion of TYPES of things in a field. > > BobGrumman: > > > He is perhaps familiar with about 30% of the SORTS of > > > poetry extant. He is thus like a mechanic familiar > > > with family cars (hatchbacks as well as sedans!) but not hot rods, race > > > cars, sports cars, etc. 90% of cars in the US are probably family cars, > > > but they certainly don't make up 90% of the sorts of cars > > > there are.<< Marcus: > > But no one expects one's neighborhood mechanic to be able to > > substitute for whoever falls ill along Gasoline Alley the day before > > the Indianapolis 500, nor to be able to chop your motorcycle before > > lunch and change the transmission on a Hummer for the Army > > after. Bob Grumman: > Right. But you don't call him widely conversant with > cars if he can't. You call him conversant with the > small variety of cars he has to be.<< Well, no, Bob -- We call him widely conversant with most cars because that's what we mean by "widely conversant" -- but we don't expect him to be knowledgeable about the tiny slices of specialty cars when we say he's widely conversant with most cars. He IS widely conversant with most cars -- he's just not widely conversant with all possible types of cars. > >But nonetheless he or she might be able reasonably to claim > > to be widely familiar with cars -- because the context in which he or > > she, and we, are speaking about auto mechanics is almost always > > going to be about the family car, and not about some specialty > > conversion vehicle. > > I have a friend who IS widely familiar with cars. Ergo, all kinds of people > bring him cars mediocre mechanics can't deal with. If you're interested in > cars, you'll want to know who knows about many of > them, not about who knows about the most used kinds.< On the contrary, Bob, it seems to me that when we say "widely conversant" we do mean exactly "knows about the most used kinds" because most of us are just not interested in the tiny slices of other kinds: not many of us own race cars or submersible vans, after all. The problem here, it seems to me, is that since you view yourself as one of the ones who does own a race car, metaphorically, you don't want to acknowledge expertise in any mechanic, metaphorically, who isn't familiar with not only race cars. but YOUR KIND OF RACE CAR. You'd reject a Formula One mechanic as "widely conversant with cars" on the grounds that he doesn't know much about your NASCAR racer, or a dragster. It's that sort of special pleading that makes your objections to "widely read" seem ill-advised. Marcus: > > Now, perhaps the problem we have in communicating on this issue > > is that you, metaphorically one of the most extreme of the > > converters, don't regard people who can change the transmission > > on my van as "widely familiar" with cars because they can't make > > my van into a working submersible vehicle. BobGrumman: > ... I DO consider mechanics who can't > do specialized things to a race car, say, as NOT > widely conversant with cars--probably, that is, > because (see above) I do NOT think one need > know ALL varieties of cars to be widely-familiar > with cars, just a reasonably large spectrum of them.<< But a reasonably large spectrum of cars for an auto mechanic to be conversant with would not reasonably include race cars and submersible vans because the time it would take to become conversant with such specialty vehicles' problems would be all out of proportion to the number of such vehicles he'd see to work on in any given year. It's just not reasonable to require that "widely conversant with cars" for a mechanic include such tiny slices of the total types of cars. > > But it seems to me that most people most of the time would regard > > those who can change the transmission on an ordinary vehicle to > > be "widely familiar" with cars.<< > > I wouldn't know. I don't care. If they did, they would be wrong.<< An extraordinary assertion of personal authority, there, Bob -- you don't show any reason for this assertion, either -- you just claim you don't know what others think, that you don't care what others think, but that you're right nonetheless. Pretty scarey. BobGrumman: > The mechanic analogy is poor, anyway, even if > correctly used. A mechanic is not concerned to enlighten a public about > cars, only to fix them.<< Let us use car salesmen, then, Bob. The disagreement is the same, though, because you want to say that "widely conversant" means "conversant with some large percentage of TYPES of X" while I want to say that "widely conversant" means "conversant with some large percentage of the total number of Xes". So, before you'll acknowledge that a car salesman is "widely conversant" with cars you'll demand that he be able to sell any kind of car, from Hummers to the Army to Dragsters to Big Daddy, to a Gremlin to a teen, and so forth? > There's nothing wrong with a critic's enlightening > his public only about a narrow range of kinds of poems--but it's ridiculous > to call him widely-read. > If you do, then what do you call a critic who writes > about all the kinds of poetry your "widely-read" > critic does, and ten other kinds, as well?<< Well, I'd like to see an example of one who is at the same professional level. And that's the problem, again, Bob -- you want to say that there ought to be, must be, some kind of absolute standard that any poetry critic must attain before he is accorded any professional status at all, it seems to me. What you are really objecting to here, it appears, is that you think you are a more widely-read critic than Bill Logan, for example, and you resent his success while you languish as yet unnoticed in your superiority. Bob Grumman: > Anyway, it's hard for me to comprehend how anyone interested in poetry would > not want to know about ALL POSSIBLE kinds of poetry--in > all possible languages, in fact. He can't, but he should try. << Well, then, you contradict yourself, since above you say it would be ridiculous to suggest such a thing as you now advocate. Can't have it both ways, Bob! Bob Grumman: > ... I don't > know why a critic would feel content just telling us about poets who work in > received forms with received techniques....<< Because the overwhelming majority of his readers do work in such forms and techniques, and that's what the overwhelming majority of his readers, thus, want to hear about. You are trying to impose a criterion on a critic that neither the critic nor his audience recognize as worthwhile or even interesting, for the same reason that they guy who wants his van's transmission fixed doesn't give a damn whether the mechanic who'll do the job knows anything about race cars at all. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jul 10 10:28:04 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:28:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture References: <3D2BF319.665.326325@localhost> Message-ID: <001901c2281e$01aadce0$4b94fea9@j1c1k6> Is a person who is familiar with most of the pop musicians and song-writers of the day widely conversant with contemporary music even though he knows nothing about jazz, classical music or many other "fringe" kinds of music, Marcus? snip > . . . we > don't expect (a mechanic) to be knowledgeable about the tiny slices of > specialty cars when we say he's widely conversant with most cars. > He IS widely conversant with most cars -- he's just not widely > conversant with all possible types of cars. Okay, a different tack: would you say this mechanic who knows the standard cars but not any others was "widely-knowledgeable" about cars? Is a mathematician who knows elementary arithmetic and high school algebra but nothing more advanced widely-knowledgeable about mathematics because of his thorough knowledge of the most widely-used varieties of it--the varieties 90% of the people in the world use? snip of repetition. >The problem here, it seems to me, is that since you view > yourself as one of the ones who does own a race car, > metaphorically, you don't want to acknowledge expertise in any > mechanic, metaphorically, who isn't familiar with not only race > cars. but YOUR KIND OF RACE CAR. You can't read. I acknowledge Logan's expertise. What I don't acknowledge is that he's widely-read. My alleged motive for believing that "widely-read" means "having read a broad RANGE of work" is, of course, irrelevant. But if you want to go the ad hominem route, I would point out that the reason you want to describe critics like Logan as "widely-read" is so you won't feel inferior about your lack of knowledge about contemporary poetry. I'm curious. I have not read much Tennyson, Longfellow, Bryant, etc. Am I NOT widely-read because of that, even though I probably have read as many different poets as you or Logan? If a person has read as many fringe poets as Logan has read Tennyson-clones and university-press free-versers, can he be considered "widely-read" even if he has read few or no mainstream poets? > You'd reject a Formula > One mechanic as "widely conversant with cars" on the grounds > that he doesn't know much about your NASCAR racer, or a > dragster. It's that sort of special pleading that makes your > objections to "widely read" seem ill-advised. Okay, what adjective SHOULD we apply to a person who is "widely-conversant" with more than a few kinds of very standard cars? Whatever that word is, it applies to you and Logan. snip > > I wouldn't know. I don't care. If they did, they would be wrong.<< > An extraordinary assertion of personal authority, there, Bob -- you > don't show any reason for this assertion, either -- you just claim > you don't know what others think, that you don't care what others > think, but that you're right nonetheless. Pretty scarey. That's me, Marcus. And you've caught me in it again, which is all you were trying to do all along. Congrats. > Let us use car salesmen, then, Bob. The disagreement is the > same, though, because you want to say that "widely conversant" > means "conversant with some large percentage of TYPES of X" > while I want to say that "widely conversant" means "conversant > with some large percentage of the total number of Xes". Yes. > So, before you'll acknowledge that a car salesman is "widely > conversant" with cars you'll demand that he be able to sell any kind > of car, from Hummers to the Army to Dragsters to Big Daddy, to a > Gremlin to a teen, and so forth? You keep using "all" and similar terms. To be considered widle-conversant with cars, he should be able to sell most kinds. He certainly should be able to tell you the advantages and disadvantages of one kind of car over most others. > > There's nothing wrong with a critic's enlightening > > his public only about a narrow range of kinds of poems--but it's ridiculous > > to call him widely-read. > > If you do, then what do you call a critic who writes > > about all the kinds of poetry your "widely-read" > > critic does, and ten other kinds, as well?<< > Well, I'd like to see an example of one who is at the same > professional level. And that's the problem, again, Bob -- you want > to say that there ought to be, must be, some kind of absolute > standard that any poetry critic must attain before he is accorded > any professional status at all, it seems to me. I'm just talking about what a critic, taken by the rational definition of "critic" as "one who writes criticism," not as "one who writes criticism for mainstream or university publications only," should be to deserve to be called "widely-read." And I'm supposing a critic who has read most kinds of contemporary poetry, period, not necessarily one who is "well-read," which is different. Let's take someone who has written on all the kinds of poetry Logan has, even if very badly, and has also written about many other kinds of poetry, even if very badly. What adjective do you use to describe him in a manner that distinguishes his breadth of reading from that of Logan? > What you are really > objecting to here, it appears, is that you think you are a more > widely-read critic than Bill Logan, for example, and you resent his > success while you languish as yet unnoticed in your superiority. Absolutely (if we take "superiority" to mean "superiority in knowledge of kinds of poetry being made in America today"--and drop the "languish"). But that is irrelevant. > Bob Grumman: > > Anyway, it's hard for me to comprehend how anyone interested in poetry would > > not want to know about ALL POSSIBLE kinds of poetry--in > > all possible languages, in fact. He can't, but he should try. << > Well, then, you contradict yourself, since above you say it would > be ridiculous to suggest such a thing as you now advocate. Can't > have it both ways, Bob! It was an aside, but I don't see that I contradicted myself. I said earlier that no critic can know all poetries. I now say he should nevertheless try to. I thought I said somewhere in my post, too, that being conversant with poetry in other languages probably will not broaden one's knowledge of kinds of poetry because it's likely that English contains all known kinds of poetry. I would add that French, Spanish and many other languages no doubt do, as well. > Bob Grumman: > > ... I don't > > know why a critic would feel content just telling us about poets who work in > > received forms with received techniques.... > Because the overwhelming majority of his readers do work in such > forms and techniques, and that's what the overwhelming majority of > his readers, thus, want to hear about. You are trying to impose a > criterion on a critic that neither the critic nor his audience > recognize as worthwhile or even interesting, for the same reason > that they guy who wants his van's transmission fixed doesn't give a > damn whether the mechanic who'll do the job knows anything > about race cars at all. I should think the fact that Writers' Digest is already covering all the important poetries would make one hesitate to repeat what it's doing, but I am odd that way. I am not imposing a criterion on all critics. Most should keep ashore. I just think a FEW should OCCASIONALLY write about fringe poetries--the way Clement Greenberg wrote about paintings that were fringe art in his day. --Bob G. From barry.spacks at verizon.net Wed Jul 10 11:44:28 2002 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:44:28 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Types of Flash? In-Reply-To: <200207041113.g64BD3617454@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020710084029.00a04b20@mail.verizon.net> Comrades, Euterpeans, -- any thoughts on the relation of prose poetry to flash (or micro-) fiction? is there anything like a sayable distinction between these sub-genres? enquiring minds.... Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jul 10 12:50:04 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:50:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture In-Reply-To: <001901c2281e$01aadce0$4b94fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3D2C2D7C.11382.1167FBA@localhost> BobGrumman: > Is a person who is familiar with most of the > pop musicians and song-writers of the day > widely conversant with contemporary music > even though he knows nothing about jazz, > classical music or many other "fringe" kinds > of music, Marcus? Well, "classical music" is not "contemporary music", Bob -- it's music written in a particular time period, and there isn't any more "classical music" being written than there are Tennysonian sonnets being written, so that kind of "fringe" music is indeed "fringe music". That aside, though, you're still comparing apples and oranges in the music analogy: pop music is just not analogous to mainstream poetry, whether free verse or formal verse. There are enormous inducements to make pop music that have nothing to do with art, and there are almost no inducements to write poetry except the attractions of art -- though that has changed somewhat with the advent of the academic teacher/poet and the poetry slam circuit, such as it is. Still, neither of those sorts of career inducements compare remotely with the sorts of inducements that exist to write pop songs and participate in the star-maker machinery. Marcus: > > . . . we > > don't expect (a mechanic) to be knowledgeable about the tiny slices of > > specialty cars when we say he's widely conversant with most cars. > > He IS widely conversant with most cars -- he's just not widely > > conversant with all possible types of cars. Bob Grumman: > Okay, a different tack: would you say this mechanic > who knows the standard cars but not any others > was "widely-knowledgeable" about cars? Is a > mathematician who knows elementary arithmetic > and high school algebra but nothing more advanced widely- knowledgeable about > mathematics because of his thorough knowledge > of the most widely-used varieties of it--the > varieties 90% of the people in the world use?<< Again, another apples-to-oranges comparison, it seems to me, I'm afraid. Mathematics is a pretty progressive field -- that is to say, there are pretty clear progressions in expertise and mastery. But alas for your comparison, poetry is not that sort of field. There are no Master Poets to whom we can go to learn the craft and make a career out of a nearly-universally-acknowledged path, and in fact no such clear path in poetry. Bob Grumman: > ... I acknowledge Logan's expertise. > What I don't acknowledge is that he's widely-read.... Well, it seems to me that we've identified the crux of the dispute. You want to say that "widely-read" means familiarity with a large percentage of the *types* of writing, and I want to say that "widely- read" means familiarity with a large percentage of mainstream writing. Do we disagree about this summary of the disagreement? BobGrumman: > I'm curious. I have not read much Tennyson, > Longfellow, Bryant, etc. Am I NOT widely-read > because of that, even though I probably have read > as many different poets as you or Logan? If a person has read as many > fringe poets as Logan > has read Tennyson-clones and university-press free-versers, can he be > considered "widely-read" even if he has read few or no mainstream poets?< Sure -- depending on the context. If we're talking about mainstream poetry I think we have to agree that he is widely-read; if we are talking about fringe poetry I think we have to agree he may not be -- at least he doesn't write about fringe poetry in his criticism of mainstream poets. I think that I was pretty clear about my context when I asserted that Mr Logan was widely-read: I was talking about mainstream poetry, and your objection (if I understand it correctly) that I OUGHT to have taken a broader view and OUGHT to have been talking about ALL poetry so that I OUGHT to have made a different claim seems to be a mis-casting of my point. Marcus: > > So, before you'll acknowledge that a car salesman is "widely > > conversant" with cars you'll demand that he be able to sell any kind > > of car, from Hummers to the Army to Dragsters to Big Daddy, to a > > Gremlin to a teen, and so forth? Bob Grumman: > You keep using "all" and similar terms. To be considered widle-conversant > with cars, he should be able to sell most kinds. He certainly should > be able to tell you the advantages and disadvantages of one kind of car over > most others.< But doesn't this mean, essentially, that he must be able to compare and contrast a Saturn sedan with a Chevrolet sedan -- not compare and contrast that Saturn with a Formula One racer. He ought to be able to sell you a sports car or a sedan or a van or an economy car, depending on your interest and budget, but surely you don't aver that he ought to be able to discourse familiarly and well on the virtues and vices of a Formula One car as evidence that he knows enough about cars to be able to give you enough information to buy a sedan? Now, if a Formula One driver comes into the showroom and asks about buying a sedan, perhaps the salesman who could talk familiarly and well about the vices and virtues of Formula One cars would have a better chance of selling that driver a sedan, but how many Formula One drivers walk into auto showrooms to buy sedans? Why would a salesman go to the trouble, as a car salesman, to know all about Formula One cars? Oh, sure, if he happened, in addition to being a car salesman to be a Formula One enthusiast, he might know in addition to what he knows about sedans and sports cars and the like, but I don't see how you can reasonably assert that he OUGHT to know. Bob Grumman: > I'm just talking about what a critic, taken by the > rational definition of "critic" as "one who writes criticism," not as "one > who writes criticism for mainstream or university publications only," should > be to deserve to be called "widely-read." << But Bob -- the mainstream is the mainstream because it's the mainstream. Of course a critic, one who writes criticism, has to be familiar with the mainstream -- for someone who has little interest in or knowledge of the mainstream can't be very relevant to that mainstream -- and it seems to me that even the fringe poets have to know about and acknowledge the mainstream since they are essentially defining themselves against that mainstream. Bob Grumman: > And I'm supposing a critic who has read most kinds of > contemporary poetry, period, not necessarily one > who is "well-read," which is different. Let's take > someone who has written on all the kinds of poetry > Logan has, even if very badly, and has also written about many other kinds > of poetry, even if very badly. What adjective do you use to describe him > in a manner that distinguishes his breadth of reading from that of Logan?<< A dilettante? BobGrumman: > ... I said earlier that no critic can know all > poetries. I now say he should nevertheless try to. > I thought I said somewhere in my post, too, that being conversant with > poetry in other languages probably will not broaden one's knowledge of kinds > of poetry because it's likely that English contains all known kinds of > poetry. I would add > that French, Spanish and many other languages no doubt do, as well.<< Well, frankly it seems to me to be far better for the poet, and far more productive of different world-views and world-maps, and of poetry in general, to know enough of another language to be able to read its poetry than to have any familiarity at all with one's native language's more fringe poetries. Marginal and fringe poetries have to earn their way into the mainstream by finding out how to make their views of the world consonant with that mainstream view, or by changing that mainstream view. But it's hard to do either oe of those, and what it seems to me is that you're really bemoaning how hard it is, and what you're asking is that mainstream critics make it easier for you by giving you what is essentially unearned exposure. You know what I'd like to see, Bob, is for you to do what Hal Johnson does: post poems that you think are important in your genre or style or otherstream or whatever you want to call it -- or, if those poems don't lend themselves to the textuality of this list, post urls where we can go look at them, because I'm certainly not well-read in such poetries, and I'd like to at least know what they are and wherethey are. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jul 10 13:22:07 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:22:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Types of Flash? Message-ID: In a message dated 7/10/2002 10:43:38 AM Central Daylight Time, barry.spacks at verizon.net writes: > Comrades, Euterpeans, > > -- any thoughts on the relation of prose poetry to > flash (or micro-) fiction? is there anything like a > sayable distinction between these sub-genres? > > enquiring minds.... > > Barry Probably, but there's no requirement for a prose poem to be narrative (though many are). I'd expect a f.f. to have some kind of narrative. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jul 10 14:40:20 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:40:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture References: <3D2C2D7C.11382.1167FBA@localhost> Message-ID: <001401c22841$3f40ecc0$4b94fea9@j1c1k6> > BobGrumman: > > Is a person who is familiar with most of the > > pop musicians and song-writers of the day > > widely conversant with contemporary music > > even though he knows nothing about jazz, > > classical music or many other "fringe" kinds > > of music, Marcus? > Well, "classical music" is not "contemporary music", Bob -- it's > music written in a particular time period, and there isn't any more > "classical music" being written than there are Tennysonian sonnets > being written, so that kind of "fringe" music is indeed "fringe > music". I wonder if that's so. I suspect there are as many people who know what real music is the way the poetry formalists know what real poetry is and who therefore write what most of us would call classical music. But let's switch the analogy to critics of musical performances, recorded and live, which was what I was thinking of, originally. > That aside, though, you're still comparing apples and oranges in > the music analogy: pop music is just not analogous to > mainstream poetry, whether free verse or formal verse. There are > enormous inducements to make pop music that have nothing to do > with art, and there are almost no inducements to write poetry > except the attractions of art -- though that has changed somewhat > with the advent of the academic teacher/poet and the poetry slam > circuit, such as it is. Still, neither of those sorts of career > inducements compare remotely with the sorts of inducements that > exist to write pop songs and participate in the star-maker > machinery. We could do a different thread on this. In it, I would compare pop music to the kind of poetry certain poets write to win grants, profitable reading gigs, tenure, etc. But I'm not up to it. In this thread, you're evading my point, which is that "widely-read," or equivalents thereof such as "widely-conversant," should not be taken to mean only familiar with that part of a field with which the majority of people is confortable. snip > Bob Grumman: > > Okay, a different tack: would you say this mechanic > > who knows the standard cars but not any others > > was "widely-knowledgeable" about cars? Is a > > mathematician who knows elementary arithmetic > > and high school algebra but nothing more advanced widely- > knowledgeable about > > mathematics because of his thorough knowledge > > of the most widely-used varieties of it--the > > varieties 90% of the people in the world use? > Again, another apples-to-oranges comparison, it seems to me, I'm > afraid. Mathematics is a pretty progressive field -- that is to say, > there are pretty clear progressions in expertise and mastery. But > alas for your comparison, poetry is not that sort of field. There are > no Master Poets to whom we can go to learn the craft and make a > career out of a nearly-universally-acknowledged path, and in fact no > such clear path in poetry. So what? We're talking about the definition of a word, in this case, "widely-knowledgeable." Can you answer my questions about whether or not the mechanic who only knows standard cars, and the mathematician who only knows high school math should be called "widely-knowledgeable" in their fields because they know the part they know terrifically well, and the part they know is the part most familiar to the great majority of people? > Bob Grumman: > > ... I acknowledge Logan's expertise. > > What I don't acknowledge is that he's widely-read.... > Well, it seems to me that we've identified the crux of the dispute. > You want to say that "widely-read" means familiarity with a large > percentage of the *types* of writing, and I want to say that "widely- > read" means familiarity with a large percentage of mainstream > writing. Do we disagree about this summary of the disagreement? No. But it's a question of which of use is using the term more reasonably--and I don't say your use of it is entirely wrong > BobGrumman: > > I'm curious. I have not read much Tennyson, > > Longfellow, Bryant, etc. Am I NOT widely-read > > because of that, even though I probably have read > > as many different poets as you or Logan? If a person has read as many > > fringe poets as Logan > > has read Tennyson-clones and university-press free-versers, can he be > > considered "widely-read" even if he has read few or no mainstream poets?< > Sure -- depending on the context. If we're talking about > mainstream poetry I think we have to agree that he is widely-read; You mean, that he is not well-read. But the context is contemporary poetry, period. > if we are talking about fringe poetry I think we have to agree he may > not be -- at least he doesn't write about fringe poetry in his criticism > of mainstream poets. Oh, I see--you're now back to Logan My continuing point is that the word should work in the context of poetry. Above you seem to be suggesting Logan is only widely-read in a context of mainstream poetry--but you didn't make that distinction originally: you said he was widely-read in poetry. It is that with which I disagree. > I think that I was pretty clear about my context when I asserted > that Mr Logan was widely-read: I was talking about mainstream > poetry, and your objection (if I understand it correctly) that I > OUGHT to have taken a broader view and OUGHT to have been > talking about ALL poetry so that I OUGHT to have made a different > claim seems to be a mis-casting of my point. It seemed to me you were speaking of him as a critic of poetry. The word, "mainstream," didn't come up until after we began arguing about the meaning of "widely-read." > Marcus: > > > So, before you'll acknowledge that a car salesman is "widely > > > conversant" with cars you'll demand that he be able to sell any kind > > > of car, from Hummers to the Army to Dragsters to Big Daddy, to a > > > Gremlin to a teen, and so forth? > Bob Grumman: > > You keep using "all" and similar terms. To be considered widle-conversant > > with cars, he should be able to sell most kinds. He certainly should > > be able to tell you the advantages and disadvantages of one kind of car over > > most others.< > But doesn't this mean, essentially, that he must be able to > compare and contrast a Saturn sedan with a Chevrolet sedan -- not > compare and contrast that Saturn with a Formula One racer. He > ought to be able to sell you a sports car or a sedan or a van or an > economy car, depending on your interest and budget, but surely > you don't aver that he ought to be able to discourse familiarly and > well on the virtues and vices of a Formula One car as evidence that > he knows enough about cars to be able to give you enough > information to buy a sedan? No, but for me to consider him "widely-conversant" with cars, he should be able to. And there would be times when it would be useful to him, I'm sure-- with a racing-buff, etc. > Now, if a Formula One driver comes into the showroom and asks > about buying a sedan, perhaps the salesman who could talk > familiarly and well about the vices and virtues of Formula One cars > would have a better chance of selling that driver a sedan, but how > many Formula One drivers walk into auto showrooms to buy > sedans? Why would a salesman go to the trouble, as a car > salesman, to know all about Formula One cars? Oh, sure, if he > happened, in addition to being a car salesman to be a Formula > One enthusiast, he might know in addition to what he knows about > sedans and sports cars and the like, but I don't see how you can > reasonably assert that he OUGHT to know. He OUGHT to know if he wants ME to call him widely-conversant with cars. Because of my own temperment, I find it hard to believe a person making a career in cars wouldn't want to know about as many of them as he could, but I don't believe he therefore SHOULD. > Bob Grumman: > > I'm just talking about what a critic, taken by the > > rational definition of "critic" as "one who writes criticism," not as "one > > who writes criticism for mainstream or university publications only," should > > be to deserve to be called "widely-read." << > But Bob -- the mainstream is the mainstream because it's the > mainstream. Of course a critic, one who writes criticism, has to be > familiar with the mainstream -- for someone who has little interest > in or knowledge of the mainstream can't be very relevant to that > mainstream -- and it seems to me that even the fringe poets have > to know about and acknowledge the mainstream since they are > essentially defining themselves against that mainstream. I'm not sure they define themselves against the mainstream. But their self-definitions would have to include most of the same elements as those of mainstreamers, especially the free-versers. > Bob Grumman: > > And I'm supposing a critic who has read most kinds of > > contemporary poetry, period, not necessarily one > > who is "well-read," which is different. Let's take > > someone who has written on all the kinds of poetry > > Logan has, even if very badly, and has also written about many other kinds > > of poetry, even if very badly. What adjective do you use to describe him > > in a manner that distinguishes his breadth of reading from that of Logan?<< > A dilettante? That says nothing about his breadth of reading. > BobGrumman: > > ... I said earlier that no critic can know all > > poetries. I now say he should nevertheless try to. > > I thought I said somewhere in my post, too, that being conversant with > > poetry in other languages probably will not broaden one's knowledge of kinds > > of poetry because it's likely that English contains all known kinds of > > poetry. I would add > > that French, Spanish and many other languages no doubt do, as well.<< > Well, frankly it seems to me to be far better for the poet, and far > more productive of different world-views and world-maps, and of > poetry in general, to know enough of another language to be able to > read its poetry than to have any familiarity at all with one's native > language's more fringe poetries. Marginal and fringe poetries have > to earn their way into the mainstream by finding out how to make > their views of the world consonant with that mainstream view, or by > changing that mainstream view. But it's hard to do either oe of > those, and what it seems to me is that you're really bemoaning > how hard it is, and what you're asking is that mainstream critics > make it easier for you by giving you what is essentially unearned > exposure. We're of course repeating our previous session on this topic. I think you're saying a mainstream critic should not read any poetry that no other mainstream critic has discussed, which should strike even you as a bit unfair. Meanwhile, commercial and academic publishers should not (and in fact do not) publish any critics who have not been published by some other commercial or academic publisher. To generalize, since a few academic and even commercial publishers DO publish the stray fringe poet or critic, here and there. All that is not relevant to the question of what "widely-read" means, though, as far as I can see. > You know what I'd like to see, Bob, is for you to do what Hal > Johnson does: post poems that you think are important in your > genre or style or otherstream or whatever you want to call it -- or, if > those poems don't lend themselves to the textuality of this list, > post urls where we can go look at them, because I'm certainly not > well-read in such poetries, and I'd like to at least know what they > are and where they are. > Marcus Bales That's the spirit! My essay on minimalist poetry has been mentioned several times at New-Poetry. It's at http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm and I've mentioned my website, Comprepoetica several times: http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica. I don't know whether I should tell you this, Marcus, but there will be an avant-garde poetry affair at Ohio State on 26 and 27 July that I'll be at. YOU could get that THAT. I posted one of my own poems here (I do textual poems, too) a while ago, but I can't recall that anyone said anything about it. The problem for any poet is that it's hard to find time to publicize one's brand of poetry and compose it AND write criticism about it. I do my best. --Bob G. From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jul 10 15:19:34 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:19:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture In-Reply-To: <001401c22841$3f40ecc0$4b94fea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3D2C5086.7439.FEC5A@localhost> Bob Grumman: > I don't know > whether I should tell you this, Marcus, but there will be an avant-garde > poetry affair at Ohio State on 26 and 27 July that I'll be at. YOU could > get that THAT. Hmm. Is this fringe poetry!? heh heh. Just a little joke, there, Bob. Where at Ohio State? It's a damned big campus, and I don't want to have to ask 40,000 people "Hey, have you seen Bob Grumman?" And what time? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Jul 10 15:08:27 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:08:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Required reading Message-ID: http://mcsweeneys.net/ Go down a couple screens to-- D I A L O G U E B E T W E E N T W O T E E N A G E R S , O N E I N T E R E S T E D I N C A R S A N D O N E N O T . BY ROBERT SCHIPTS Hal "language--the Riviera of consciousness" --Bob Perelman Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Wed Jul 10 17:26:22 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:26:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Types of Flash? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020710084029.00a04b20@mail.verizon.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020710084029.00a04b20@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: Michel Delville's *The American Prose Poem* works hard to distinguish between these. A very good recent book. ellen s. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jul 10 19:19:22 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:19:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contest Culture References: <3D2C5086.7439.FEC5A@localhost> Message-ID: <001301c22868$3a2af9c0$4b94fea9@j1c1k6> > Hmm. Is this fringe poetry!? heh heh. Just a little joke, there, Bob. I'm a little worried that it will cost us quite a few fringe points, actually. > Where at Ohio State? It's a damned big campus, and I don't want > to have to ask 40,000 people "Hey, have you seen Bob Grumman?" Why, the football Stadium, natch. Where else? Seriously, amazingly enough I have the information. It's called AN AMERICAN AVANT GARDE: SECOND WAVE SUMPOSIUM. On Friday, 26 July, there will be readings in room 122 starting at 3:30, reception in the Exhibit Hall at 4:30; Keynote address at 6 in the Grand Lounge of the OSU Faculty Club. Lots of presentations the next day, starting at 9 in the morning. Mine is scheduled for 3:30 in Room 122 of the Main Library. At 4, a panel discussion begins, the last event of the symposium. John Byrum, whom you may know since he once edited the magazine you now edit (and worked me into it!), will be doing something at 1 P.M. with his wife. There will also be ongoing video showings in room 124 all day, and a second sequence of presentations in Room 327, the Rare Books and Manuscripts Library. The people involved in that will be presenting mostly readings whereas the people in the other sequence with me will mainly be doing slide shows or the equivalent. I'll be using an overhead projector to show mathematical visual poems, and talking a bit about them. I wouldn't mind at all someone like you in the audience asking probing questions. Joel Lipman, whom you also may know of since he's an Ohio poet, will be reading, too--in the 3:30 slot in the second sequence, which means, I suspect, that most people will go to his session. My impression is that there won't be too many people at the event, but that it'll be an exciting time for those who are. Thanks for asking. --Bob G. > And what time? > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From barry.spacks at verizon.net Wed Jul 10 22:59:01 2002 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:59:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] P-P & F-F Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020710195324.00a00b40@mail.verizon.net> Thanks to Ellen Smith & the redoubtable Sam Gwynn for their alerts on prose-poem vs. flash-fiction (I'm thinking of teaching a course next year on this pairing...a counter to inundation by expansive poetry?) Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Thu Jul 11 02:20:23 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 01:20:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] P-P & F-F In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020710195324.00a00b40@mail.verizon.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020710195324.00a00b40@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: Barry: Can you give me a good tip on a good summation of "expansive poetry"? ellen s. -- From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Thu Jul 11 02:21:15 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 01:21:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] P-P & F-F In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020710195324.00a00b40@mail.verizon.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020710195324.00a00b40@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: Oh, Also: I'd love to hear about that course if you get it up and running. ellen s. >Thanks to Ellen Smith & the redoubtable Sam Gwynn >for their alerts on prose-poem vs. flash-fiction >(I'm thinking of teaching a course next year >on this pairing...a counter to inundation by >expansive poetry?) > >Barry -- From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jul 11 01:20:56 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 01:20:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] P-P & F-F Message-ID: <158.10a408b7.2a5e6fb8@cs.com> In a message dated 7/10/2002 11:45:32 PM Central Daylight Time, smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu writes: > > Barry: Can you give me a good tip on a good summation of "expansive > poetry"? > ellen s. > -- http://www.n2hos.com/acm/cult0699.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adead_poet at hotmail.com Thu Jul 11 06:10:11 2002 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:10:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Required reading Message-ID: what is that? it was hilarious. jason >From: "Halvard Johnson" >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: "New-Poetry" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Required reading >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:08:27 -0400 > > >http://mcsweeneys.net/ > >Go down a couple screens to-- > > >D I A L O G U E B E T W E E N >T W O T E E N A G E R S , >O N E I N T E R E S T E D I N C A R S >A N D O N E N O T . > >BY ROBERT SCHIPTS > > >Hal "language--the Riviera of consciousness" > --Bob Perelman > >Halvard Johnson >=============== >email: halvard at earthlink.net >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jul 11 07:48:40 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:48:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Required reading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Would you kindly rephrase the question? Hal { what is that? it was hilarious. { jason { { >From: "Halvard Johnson" { >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >To: "New-Poetry" { >Subject: [New-Poetry] Required reading { >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:08:27 -0400 { > { > { >http://mcsweeneys.net/ { > { >Go down a couple screens to-- { > { > { >D I A L O G U E B E T W E E N { >T W O T E E N A G E R S , { >O N E I N T E R E S T E D I N C A R S { >A N D O N E N O T . { > { >BY ROBERT SCHIPTS { > { > { >Hal "language--the Riviera of consciousness" { > --Bob Perelman { > { >Halvard Johnson { >=============== { >email: halvard at earthlink.net { >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { > { >_______________________________________________ { >New-Poetry mailing list { >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { { { { { _________________________________________________________________ { MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: { http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From adead_poet at hotmail.com Thu Jul 11 14:03:11 2002 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:03:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Required reading Message-ID: I'm just not sure what you would call the dialogue. I did enjoy it immensely. jason >From: "Halvard Johnson" >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Required reading >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:48:40 -0400 > >Would you kindly rephrase the question? > >Hal > >{ what is that? it was hilarious. >{ jason >{ >{ >From: "Halvard Johnson" >{ >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >{ >To: "New-Poetry" >{ >Subject: [New-Poetry] Required reading >{ >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:08:27 -0400 >{ > >{ > >{ >http://mcsweeneys.net/ >{ > >{ >Go down a couple screens to-- >{ > >{ > >{ >D I A L O G U E B E T W E E N >{ >T W O T E E N A G E R S , >{ >O N E I N T E R E S T E D I N C A R S >{ >A N D O N E N O T . >{ > >{ >BY ROBERT SCHIPTS >{ > >{ > >{ >Hal "language--the Riviera of consciousness" >{ > --Bob Perelman >{ > >{ >Halvard Johnson >{ >=============== >{ >email: halvard at earthlink.net >{ >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard >{ > >{ >_______________________________________________ >{ >New-Poetry mailing list >{ >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >{ >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >{ >{ >{ >{ >{ _________________________________________________________________ >{ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: >{ http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx >{ >{ _______________________________________________ >{ New-Poetry mailing list >{ New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >{ http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jul 11 14:13:29 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:13:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Required reading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I enjoyed it too, Jason. I guess I'd call it a brief dialogue. Hal { I'm just not sure what you would call the dialogue. I did enjoy it { immensely. { { jason { { { >From: "Halvard Johnson" { >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >To: { >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Required reading { >Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:48:40 -0400 { > { >Would you kindly rephrase the question? { > { >Hal { > { >{ what is that? it was hilarious. { >{ jason { >{ { >{ >From: "Halvard Johnson" { >{ >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >{ >To: "New-Poetry" { >{ >Subject: [New-Poetry] Required reading { >{ >Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:08:27 -0400 { >{ > { >{ > { >{ >http://mcsweeneys.net/ { >{ > { >{ >Go down a couple screens to-- { >{ > { >{ > { >{ >D I A L O G U E B E T W E E N { >{ >T W O T E E N A G E R S , { >{ >O N E I N T E R E S T E D I N C A R S { >{ >A N D O N E N O T . { >{ > { >{ >BY ROBERT SCHIPTS { >{ > { >{ > { >{ >Hal "language--the Riviera of consciousness" { >{ > --Bob Perelman { >{ > { >{ >Halvard Johnson { >{ >=============== { >{ >email: halvard at earthlink.net { >{ >website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { >{ > { >{ >_______________________________________________ { >{ >New-Poetry mailing list { >{ >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >{ >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { >{ { >{ { >{ { >{ { >{ _________________________________________________________________ { >{ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: { >{ http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx { >{ { >{ _______________________________________________ { >{ New-Poetry mailing list { >{ New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >{ http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { > { >_______________________________________________ { >New-Poetry mailing list { >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { { { { { _________________________________________________________________ { Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. { http://www.hotmail.com { { _______________________________________________ { New-Poetry mailing list { New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu { http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry { From barry.spacks at verizon.net Thu Jul 11 19:03:27 2002 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:03:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Expanded Poems, Condensed Fictions In-Reply-To: <200207101600.g6AG02619626@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020711155018.00a04880@mail.verizon.net> Ellen Smith asks about "Expansive Poetry" -- I believe the category was named by Fred Turner, responding to the current penchant for the long lyric or narrative poem, often a portmanteau effect of bits and drabs (carefully chosen word). Ellen, the one book I've read on the phenomenon was actually edited by The Gwynn Himself, New Expansive Poetry, while Amazon shows me two others I need to catch up with:Expansive Poetry: Essays on the New Narrative & the New Formalism and The Ghost of Tradition: Expansive Poetry and Postmodernism Just a half hour ago I grabbed our library's copy of the book you recommended, Delville's The American Prose Poem, looks like a major read! Will report on the course, as requested -- not scheduled till next Winter Term. Expansively, B. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellogg at duke.edu Thu Jul 11 21:11:18 2002 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:11:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Expanded Poems, Condensed Fictions In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020711155018.00a04880@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: > Ellen, the one book I've read on the phenomenon was actually edited by The > Gwynn > Himself, New Expansive Poetry, while Amazon shows me two others I need to > catch up with:Expansive Poetry: Essays on the New Narrative & the New > Formalism > and The Ghost of Tradition: Expansive Poetry and Postmodernism Barry, I believe Sam's _New Expansive Poetry_ is a revised version of the _Expansive Poetry_ volume edited by Turner and Feirstein. There is considerable overlap, though if I recall Sam drops a couple of pieces and adds a couple. _The Ghost of Tradition_ is, as I believe I've said before on this list, a miserable little book containing some fairly pedestrian readings of New Formalist poetry along with a few potshots at "postmodernism," broadly and irresponsibly construed. The better new formalists are poorly served by that bit of formalist propaganda. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Director, Writing in the Disciplines kellogg at duke.edu Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing (919) 668-1615 Duke University FAX (919) 6681-0637 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Fri Jul 12 00:51:01 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:51:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Expanded Poems, Condensed Fictions In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020711155018.00a04880@mail.verizon.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020711155018.00a04880@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: Thanks a lot for the leads on expansive poetry. Definitely a lot to look into! ellen s. -- From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Fri Jul 12 00:53:33 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:53:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Expanded Poems, Condensed Fictions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, David, for the previews of these books. ellen s. Off to Northern New Jersey where donuts are donuts. -- From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Jul 12 11:48:04 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:48:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: William Matthews, "Attention, Everybody" Message-ID: Attention, Everybody Gloom is the enemy, even to the end. The parodies of self-knowl- edge were embossed by Gloom inside our eyelids, and the abrasion makes us weep, for no reason, like a new bride disconsolate in the nightgown she had sewn so carefully. The dog comes back from the fields, lumpy with burrs. I put down my pen and pull them out; it is a care I have taught him to expect. I've always said it would be difficult. I'm declaring a new regime. Its flag is woven loam. Its motto is: *Love is worth even its own disasters.* Its totem is the worm. We eat our way through grief and make it richer. We don't blunt ourselves against stones--their borders go all the way through. We go around them. In my new regime Gloom dances by itself, like a sad poet. Also I will be sending out some letters: Dear Friends, Please come to the party for my new life. The dog will meet you at the road, barking, running stiff-legged circles. Pluck one of his burrs and follow him here. I've got lots of good wine, I'm in love, my new poems are better than my old poems. It's been too long since we started over. The new regime will start when you lift your eyes from this page. Here it comes. --William Matthews [in *The Best of the Prose Poem: An International Journal*, 2000] Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Fri Jul 12 12:26:10 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:26:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Kenneth Koch 1925-2002 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Jul 12 13:14:37 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:14:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Expanded Poems, Condensed Fictions In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020711155018.00a04880@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: on 7/11/02 6:03 PM, Barry Spacks at barry.spacks at verizon.net wrote: > Ellen Smith asks about "Expansive Poetry" -- I believe the category was > named by Fred Turner, responding to the current penchant for the long lyric > or narrative poem, often a portmanteau effect of bits and drabs (carefully > chosen word). > > Ellen, the one book I've read on the phenomenon was actually edited by The > Gwynn > Himself, New Expansive Poetry, while Amazon shows me two others I need to > catch up with:Expansive Poetry: Essays on the New Narrative & the New > Formalism > and The Ghost of Tradition: Expansive Poetry and Postmodernism > > Just a half hour ago I grabbed our library's copy of the book you recommended, > Delville's > The American Prose Poem, looks like a major read! > > Will report on the course, as requested -- not scheduled till next Winter > Term. > > Expansively, > > B. > > Barry & Co. You might also have a look at Annie Finch?s After New Formalism and Robert McDowell?s *Poetry After Modernism*, second edition. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu Fri Jul 12 16:23:19 2002 From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:23:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Expanded Poems, Condensed Fictions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Paul, I have both the Finch and McDowell and will check them out! ellen s. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com Sat Jul 13 18:18:43 2002 From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 22:18:43 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] A.D. Hope (a thank you) Message-ID: Hey I was browsing this hot late afternoon in a box of 2nd hand books and came up with a copy of A D Hope's Selected. Signed by him, Alec & Penelope Hope (Wife & Son? I dunno). Like lots of signed 2nd handers it's hardly been opened. Snaffled it up. So while the evening turned to twilight and bats I've been munching thro the pizza I also bought, some delish olives, and sipping a fine French red wine, and enjoying the dry wit of the guy... "Speak Parrot" (Now there's a title for a poem addressed to poets!) I'm still smiling, a calm sense of wryness in how he sees things, in what he says! Whoever it was recommended him... and posted a couple of samples, my last-glass-of-the-bottle warm summer's night thanks! Bob _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Sun Jul 14 10:16:47 2002 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:16:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stern's Sonnets Message-ID: Not all reviewing of poetry these days is blurbage and puffery. Here's a dyspeptic view of Gerald Stern's recent *American Sonnets*. From the *Columbus Dispatch*, including on the Poetry Daily site: http://libpub.dispatch.com/cgi-bin/documentv1?DBLIST=cd02&DOCNUM=29420&TERMV =185:5:190:6: -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Home Page: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html Poetry Library: http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html ==================================================== From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Jul 14 11:30:20 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 11:30:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Stern's Sonnets Message-ID: <109.1559245f.2a62f30c@cs.com> In a message dated 7/14/2002 9:19:53 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > > Not all reviewing of poetry these days is blurbage and puffery. Here's a > dyspeptic view of Gerald Stern's recent *American Sonnets*. From the > *Columbus Dispatch*, including on the Poetry Daily site: > > http://libpub.dispatch.com/cgi-bin/documentv1?DBLIST=cd02&DOCNUM=29420& > TERMV > =185:5:190:6: Sonnets by Langston Hughes? Maybe there are some, but I sure can't recall them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From roger at chass.utoronto.ca Sun Jul 14 12:59:52 2002 From: roger at chass.utoronto.ca (Roger Greenwald) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 12:59:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] review of Stern Message-ID: <3.0.3.16.20020714125952.089ff274@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> I followed the link supplied by David Graham (thanks) and read what he called the "dyspeptic" review of Gerald Stern's _American Sonnets._ I found that it illustrates something I've noted several times in recent years when I've read essays that try to look hard at the quality of much-praised poetry or fiction (essays that I welcome). That is, while the critic is often right about many poor poems (or stories, novels), he or she then goes on to underestimate a good work, the discussion of which reveals inadequate skill at close reading. (See, for example, Mary Karr's inadequate reading of James Merrill's "Serenade" in her well-known essay "Against Decoration," reprinted in her book _Viper Rum._) Although I have not read Stern's book or even the whole of the poem that the reviewer (David Caplan) quotes, and therefore have no opinion as to the quality of the work, it seems clear to me that Caplan hasn't understood the passage he's commented on. I will insert comments preceded by my initials (RG): _____ A good example of Gerald Stern's poem For the Bee clarified my growing irritation while reading his American Sonnets : The fence itself can't breathe, jewelweeds are choking the life out of the dirt, not one tomato plant can even survive, the crows are leaving, the worms themselves won't stay, the bricks are hot, the water in one of my buckets has disappeared . . . "What's so bad?'' you might ask. One image proceeds swiftly to the next. The poem has what creative-writing students call "flow.'' Take a closer look. See how the poem offers banal observations as if they were profound. "The bricks are hot''? RG: I infer that the passage describes suffocating heat. It takes a great deal of heat to make bricks hot, so the image is a measure of how hot the air must be. "The water / in one of my buckets has disappeared,'' not simply evaporated ? Count the cliches in this passage. RG: "evaporated" would provide a scientific explanation of a phenomenon observed and understood. "Disappeared" conveys the surprise of the speaker at finding water suddenly gone that he expected to be there; again an image of how hot (and dry) the air must be. The poem notes that the "fence itself'' (why "itself''?) "can't breathe.'' Is the opposite possible? RG: Most fences, whether rail or picket--as long as they're made of wood and not stone--have large spaces between the elements they're made of. Air passes through readily, and this can be thought of as breathing. If an open fence can't breathe, then nothing can. Thus the emphatic "itself." (Perhaps Stern was avoiding using "even" because he uses it later; I am not praising the line as verse, merely pointing out the obtuseness of Caplan's reading.) See how this sloppy image impresses Stern so much that he builds on it with asphyxiated dirt. RG: The notion of weeds "choking" other life is indeed clich?, but at least Stern gets a double sense of choking (first intransitive, then transitive after the line break) and skirts the clich? by making the dirt rather than other plants the thing that has the life choked out of it. One can take that to mean the dirt's capacity to support other life. [snip] "Not one tomato plant / can even survive,'' Stern writes. Why "even''? How about "not one tomato plant / can survive?'' Or wouldn't the line be better as "not one tomato plant / will survive''? RG: Caplan seems to miss what is implied: "can even survive--no less bear fruit." ______ I agree that Caplan sounds irritated; he obviously didn't like Stern's book, and for all I know, he had good reason not to like it. Perhaps his frustration is with himself for not managing to put his finger on the good reasons. Roger Greenwald roger at chass.utoronto.ca From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jul 15 13:38:04 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:38:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] QUID 10 Message-ID: <169.108e0714.2a64627c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:27:44 +0100 From: cris cheek Subject: FW: new accounting scandal: QUID discloses $80bn. in hidden debt So that we need agog patrons, for: QUID 10, parts I, II & III part I: Responses to _QUID 9: Against Imperialism_ A long essay by Keith Tuma, 'Interlopers Aren't Funny' A long poem by Allen Fisher, 'Underbelly Jump' A response to Andrea Brady by Scott Thurston part II: misc. A reply to Keith Tuma by Keston Sutherland A long poem by Marjorie Welish A text for performance by Jeremy Hardingham An essay in (re)verse, 'the Line Break in Everyday Life' by Peter Middleton A poem by Drew Milne An essay 'Tradition and Poetry' by Ben Friedlander & part III: Two poems by Helen Slater A Review of Drew Milne's _The Damage_ by Robin Purves An exchange on ethics and aesthetics btw. Chris Goode & Keston Sutherland Poems by Louis Armand An essay on poetry and imperialism by Andrew Duncan Buy QUID: save your pension! At the usual rate: one pound per slice, plus two pounds postage altogether. Send cheques for a fiver, made out to Barque Press, to: Keston Sutherland Gonville & Caius Cambridge CB2 1TA PLUS: coming soon from Barque, Che Xianzi's _Vegetarian Hugging a Rooster_. www.barquepress.com From tedmacker at yahoo.com Mon Jul 15 16:20:08 2002 From: tedmacker at yahoo.com (Edward Macker) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #895 - 1 msg In-Reply-To: <200207151601.g6FG19612903@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <20020715202008.33857.qmail@web11501.mail.yahoo.com> It's easy to knock Gerald Stern. He's often not economical; his linebreak can feel arbitrary; and his blowhard emotions seem to befit the opera. But, for me, what's so exciting is his voice-- usually an exuberant, slightly unknowing, unironic lyrical voice. 'Unknowing' and 'unironic' are words not often associated with personae within poems. In fact, I can only think of a few occasions (read Jewel, Jimmy Carter, and Tupac) where I, the reader, felt like I knew more than the speaker of a poem. (Of course, it's usually the opposite: I typically feel as if I'm being constantly reminded I know significantly less.) This is not the case with novels, movies, plays, and short stories. These forms are lousy with 'unknowing' (and I use quotes because always the 'unknowing' character proves to be, somehow, more in the know) and 'unironic' characters. (Off the top of my head, Joyce's Bloom, Cervantes' Quijote, Twain's Huck come to mind; as do Buster Keaton, Charlie Chaplin, and some of WC Fields.) Stern seems to purposefully defy all this. He conjures up a voice that somehow feels novelistic. (And I assure you that the voice within his poems is not the same as his voice without: his off-the-cuff banter at his readings, as many of you probably know, is not all innocent wonder and manufactured mooing for the little man; he's colorful, yes-- with a penchant for snorting like an incensed moose-- but not naively colorful). Stern's voice isn't always unknowing of course. Some poems can be biting, ironic, and witty. But, for the most part, there is something slightly naive about his poems, slightly unknowing, innocent maybe. And that to me is inspiring. (Perhaps somebody could address the curious lack of engagingly unknowing personae in poetry these days.) Thanks, Teddy Macker __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 16 11:16:06 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:16:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] NAT'L POETRY SLAM in Minneapolis Message-ID: <18c.ac8e532.2a6592b6@aol.com> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ National Poetry Slam 2002, August 14-17, Minneapolis, MN Bouts are up at: www.nps2002.com ------- BOSTON POETRY SLAM The Cantab Lounge 738 Massachusetts Ave, Central Square, Cambridge, Mass (617) 354-2685 Wednesday 8 pm open mike; 9:30 pm feature; 10:30 pm slam $3, unless noted All ages welcome, but everyone must have a photo ID Hosted by Michael Brown, Craig Nelson & Valerie Lawson August 7, The Big East Regional slam starts at 7:30. $10 admission for the biggest slam east of Minneapolis this year. Eight teams will slam upstairs and downstairs until 10 pm, then finish up downstairs. The Teams The Amazons Burlington, VT The Cantab Connecticut The Lizard Lounge Providence Urbana (NYC) Worcester Come see some of the greats of poetry slam--Taylor Mali, Bill MacMillan, John Powers, Iyeoka Okoawo, and Cantab Champion of Champions Rachel Hyman. See head-to-head team matches. Celebrate the excitement that is the Boston Poetry Slam. Info: bosslam at cybercom.net visit: www.slamnews.com, website of the Boston Poetry Slam, with events and venue listings from around the slam world! From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 16 12:46:45 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:46:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Stern's Sonnets Message-ID: <170.109b9f97.2a65a7f5@aol.com> In a message dated 7/15/02 4:31:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tedmacker at yahoo.com writes: > Stern's voice isn't always unknowing of course. Some > poems can be biting, ironic, and witty. But, for the > most part, there is something slightly naive about his > poems, slightly unknowing, innocent maybe. And that to > me is inspiring. (Perhaps somebody could address the > curious lack of engagingly unknowing personae in > poetry these days.) Teddy, Yes, and I'm sure Stern knew he was going to provoke some folks to harsh critiicism just by calling his loose short poems "sonnets." The Insouciant Sonnets may have be a more fitting title. I do think there is often a lovable vulnerability and a childlike exuberance in the Stern persona. And, his garden of verse is always a cultivated dishevelment, one might say. Also, I agree with Roger's assessment of Caplan's poorly put put-down of a review. On a related note. Did anyone see that interview in NYTimes Arts section with Paul Newman, Tom Hanks & Sam Mendes, re the The Road To Perdition? I 've not seen the movie but Mendes (director of American Beauty) said something smart that I thought applied well to l-lyric that Stern practices... Sam Mendes: "In the end, you can run out of computer generated effects. There are only so many ways you can show an explosion. But you can never get tired of the human face. The best effect in any good film is the close-up. When you've made it so an audience wants a close-up, really desires it and needs it, and then you give it to them, it can happen with a greater force than any explosion." I like that...."the best effect in any good film is the close-up," though I guess with Stern not everyone is really going to desire and need what he has to give. Finnegan From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jul 16 15:03:50 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:03:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] USA Geezer Test In-Reply-To: <001801c227aa$52f7f2a0$fcddfea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3D3435D6.23007.76A891@localhost> > 1. In the 1940's, where were automobile headlight dimmer switches located? > a. On the floor shift knob > b. On the floor board, to the left of the clutch > c. Next to the horn > > 2. The bottle top of a Royal Crown Cola bottle had holes in it. For what was > it used? > a. Capture lightning bugs > b. To sprinkle clothes before ironing > c. Large salt shaker > > 3. Why was having milk delivered a problem in > northern winters? > a. Cows got cold and wouldn't produce milk > b. Ice on highways forced delivery by dog sled > c. Milkmen left deliveries outside of front doors and milk would > freeze, expanding and pushing up the cardboard bottle top. > > 4. What was the popular chewing gum named for a > game of chance? > a. Blackjack > b. Gin > c. Craps! > > 5. What method did women use to look as if they were wearing stockings when none were available due to rationing during W.W.II? > a. Suntan > b. Leg painting > c. Wearing slacks > > 6. What postwar car turned automotive design on its ear when you > couldn't tell whether it was coming or going? > a. Studebaker > b. Nash Metro > c. Tucker > > 7. Which was a popular candy when you were a kid? > a. Strips of dried peanut butter > b. Chocolate licorice bars > c. Wax coke-shaped bottles with colored sugar water inside > > 8. How was Butch wax used? > a. To stiffen a flat-top haircut so it stood up > b. To make floors shiny and prevent scuffing > c. On the wheels of roller skates to prevent rust > > 9. Before inline ska! tes, how did you keep your roller skates attached > to your shoes? > a. With clamps, tightened by a skate key > b. Woven straps that crossed the foot > c. Long pieces of twine > > 10. As a kid, what was considered the best way to reach a decision? > a. Consider all the facts > b. Ask Mom > c. Eeny-meeny-miney-mo > > 11. What was the most dreaded disease in the 1940's? > a. Smallpox > b. AIDS > c. Polio > > 12. "I'll be down to get you in a ________, Honey" > a. SUV > b. Taxi > c. Streetcar > > 13. What was the name of ! Caroline Kennedy's pet pony? > a. Old Blue > b. Paint > c. Macaroni > > 14. What was a Duck-and-Cover Drill? > a. Part of the game of hide and seek > b. What you did when your mom called you in to do chores > c. Hiding under your desk, and cov! ering your head with your arms in an A-bomb drill > > 15. What was the name of the Indian Princess on the Howdy Doody show? > a. Princess Summerfallwinterspring > b. Princess Sacajewea > c. Princess Moonshadow > > 16. What did all the really savvy students do when mimeographed tests > were handed out in school? > a. Immediately sniffed the purple ink, as this was believed to get > you *high* > b.! Made paper airplanes to see who could sail theirs out the window > c. Wrote another pupil's name on the top, to avoid your failure > > 17. Why did your mom shop in stores that gave Green Stamps with > purchases? > a. To keep you out of mischief by licking the backs, > which! tasted like bubble gum > b. They could be put in special books and > redeemed for various household items > c. They were given to the kids to be used as > stick-on tattoos > > 18. Praise the Lord, and pass the _________?* > a. Meatballs > b. Dames > c. Ammunition > > 19. What was the name of the singing group that made the song ! > "Cabdriver" a hit? > a. The Ink Spots > b. The Supremes > c. The Esquires > > 20. Who left his heart in San Francisco? > a. Tony Bennett > b. Zavier Cugat > c. George Gershwin > _____________________________________ > ANSWERS: > 1. b) On the floor, to the left of the clutch. > Hand controls, popular in Europe, took till the > late '60s to catch on. > 2. b) To sprinkle clothes before ironing. Who > had a steam iron? > 3. c) Cold weather caused the milk to freeze and > expand, popping the bottle top. > 4. a) Blackjack Gum. > 5. b) Special makeup was applied, followed by > drawing a seam down the > back of the leg with eyebrow pencil. > 6. a) 1946 Studebaker. > 7. c) Wax coke bottles containing super-sweet > colored water. > 8. a) Wax for your flat top (butch) haircut. > 9. a) With clamps, tightened by a skate key, > which you wore on a > shoestring around your neck. > 10. c) Eeny-meeny-miney-mo. > 11. c) Polio. In beginning of August, swimming > pools were closed, movies > and other pub! lic gathering places were closed > to try to prevent spread of the disease. > 12. b) Taxi. Better be ready by half-past eight! > 13. c) Macaroni. > 14. c) Hiding under your desk, and covering your > head with your arms in an A-bomb drill. > 15. a) Princess Summerfallwinterspring. She was > another puppet. > 16. a) Immediately sniffed the purple ink to get > a high. > 17. b) Put in a special stamp book, they could > be traded for household > items at the Green Stamp store. > 18. c) Ammunition, and we'll all be free. > 19. a) The all male, all black group: The Inkspots. > 20. a) Tony Bennett, and he sounds just as good today. > : > _____________________________________ > SCORING: > 17- 20 correct: You are not only older than > dirt, but obviously gifted > with mind bloat. Now if you could only find your > glasses. > 12 -16 correct: Not quite dirt yet, but your > mind is definitely muddy. > 0 -11 correct: You are a sad excuse for a geezer > or you are younger than > springtime! Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jul 16 17:05:27 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 17:05:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Stern's Sonnets Message-ID: <130.114f09e8.2a65e497@cs.com> In a message dated 7/16/2002 11:47:45 AM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > The best > effect in any good film is the close-up. When you've made > it so an audience wants a close-up, really desires it and > needs it, and then you give it to them, it can happen with > a greater force than any explosion." > > I like that...."the best effect in any good film is the close-up," > though I guess with Stern not everyone is really going > to desire and need what he has to give. He said "face," J.F., not "voice." I get pretty tired of listening to Stern as he putters around with his flowerpots. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Tue Jul 16 18:18:06 2002 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:18:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #896 - 3 msgs In-Reply-To: <200207161601.g6GG13618100@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020716151535.00a1b4b0@mail.verizon.net> At 12:01 PM 7/16/02 -0400, Teddy Macker wrote: >an exuberant, slightly unknowing, unironic lyrical voice. Macker catches Stern dead-on: a ceremonious innocence, un-drowned B. ************* >'Unknowing' and 'unironic' are words not often >associated with personae within poems. In fact, I can >only think of a few occasions (read Jewel, Jimmy >Carter, and Tupac) where I, the reader, felt like I >knew more than the speaker of a poem. (Of course, it's >usually the opposite: I typically feel as if I'm being >constantly reminded I know significantly less.) This >is not the case with novels, movies, plays, and short >stories. These forms are lousy with 'unknowing' (and I >use quotes because always the 'unknowing' character >proves to be, somehow, more in the know) and >'unironic' characters. (Off the top of my head, >Joyce's Bloom, Cervantes' Quijote, Twain's Huck come >to mind; as do Buster Keaton, Charlie Chaplin, and >some of WC Fields.) > >Stern seems to purposefully defy all this. He conjures >up a voice that somehow feels novelistic. (And I >assure you that the voice within his poems is not the >same as his voice without: his off-the-cuff banter at >his readings, as many of you probably know, is not all >innocent wonder and manufactured mooing for the little >man; he's colorful, yes-- with a penchant for snorting >like an incensed moose-- but not naively colorful). > >Stern's voice isn't always unknowing of course. Some >poems can be biting, ironic, and witty. But, for the >most part, there is something slightly naive about his >poems, slightly unknowing, innocent maybe. And that to >me is inspiring. (Perhaps somebody could address the >curious lack of engagingly unknowing personae in >poetry these days.) > >Thanks, >Teddy Macker -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 16 18:46:54 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:46:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive Message-ID: Emily Dickinson's verbal swervings gets cited too> Eric Griffiths on the pleasures wrought by grammar from Ben Jonson to the Pet Shop Boys, as revealed in The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language by Rodney Huddleston and Geoffrey K Pullum http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,753669,00.html For the purposes of linguistics, sharp focus on current English is entirely legitimate, but there are things we may, and perhaps should, want to know about our language other than those synchronic description can reveal. Such as what Ben Jonson meant when he wrote: Drinke to me, onely, with thine eyes, And I will pledge with mine; Or leave a kisse but in the cup, And Ile not looke for wine. He was not asking Celia to restrict her drinking of healths to his alone but either calling her his "onely" or, more likely, saying that her eyes were the one intoxicant he needed, just as "leave a kisse but in the cup" means that a blown kiss, the mere aftermath of her lips, is all he wants on his. The traditional usage is actual in his lines every time somebody reads them with understanding; it was still going strong when Dick Powell, in a Busby Berkeley musical, sang the magnificent compliment "I only have eyes for you". Put the "only" elsewhere and the schmooze evaporates: "Only I have eyes for you" (nobody else would look at you twice); "I have only eyes for you" (I like looking but don't want to touch); "I have eyes for you only" (the others leave me cold) - none of them matches the hyperbole of "I only have eyes for you", which can imply he was given vision just to look at her. From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 16 19:07:30 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 19:07:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Stern's Sonnets Message-ID: <43.e703740.2a660132@aol.com> In a message dated 7/16/02 5:08:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: >He said "face," J.F., not "voice." I get pretty tired of listening to Stern > as he putters around with his flowerpots. True, there's something vegetal in his sensibility...some might say his lines are as unmanageable as kudzu. And he once wrote a poem featuring my one of my favorite weed-trees, "Sumac." I even recall some wag saying the quintessential Gerald Stern poem begins, "I'm sitting under a maple tree..." If you're going to find fault with Stern, you should pass up the pruning knife and go right to the machete Finnegan From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Jul 16 19:47:16 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:47:16 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive References: Message-ID: <3D34B084.49F37356@earthlink.net> JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Emily Dickinson's verbal swervings gets cited too> > Eric Griffiths on the pleasures wrought by grammar from Ben Jonson to the Pet > Shop Boys, as revealed in The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language by > Rodney Huddleston and Geoffrey K Pullum > > http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,753669,00.html > > For the purposes of linguistics, sharp focus on current English is entirely > legitimate, but there are things we may, and perhaps should, want to know > about our language other than those synchronic description can reveal. Such > as what Ben Jonson meant when he wrote: > > Drinke to me, onely, with thine eyes, > And I will pledge with mine; > Or leave a kisse but in the cup, > And Ile not looke for wine. > > He was not asking Celia to restrict her drinking of healths to his alone but > either calling her his "onely" or, more likely, saying that her eyes were the > one intoxicant he needed, just as "leave a kisse but in the cup" means that a > blown kiss, the mere aftermath of her lips, is all he wants on his. > > The traditional usage is actual in his lines every time somebody reads them > with understanding; it was still going strong when Dick Powell, in a Busby > Berkeley musical, sang the magnificent compliment "I only have eyes for you". > Put the "only" elsewhere and the schmooze evaporates: "Only I have eyes for > you" (nobody else would look at you twice); "I have only eyes for you" (I > like looking but don't want to touch); "I have eyes for you only" (the others > leave me cold) - none of them matches the hyperbole of "I only have eyes for > you", which can imply he was given vision just to look at her. Re that last: Would we want to go there? That's like Bush saying we were given the right to vote so we could vote for him. - Jim-not-the-Finnegan From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jul 16 20:45:37 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:45:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive Message-ID: <85.1e4e3dde.2a661831@cs.com> In a message dated 7/16/2002 5:49:23 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > Emily Dickinson's verbal swervings gets cited too> > Eric Griffiths on the pleasures wrought by grammar from Ben Jonson to the > Pet > Shop Boys, as revealed in The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language by > Rodney Huddleston and Geoffrey K Pullum > > http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,753669,00.html > > For the purposes of linguistics, sharp focus on current English is entirely > > legitimate, but there are things we may, and perhaps should, want to know > about our language other than those synchronic description can reveal. Such > > as what Ben Jonson meant when he wrote: > > Drinke to me, onely, with thine eyes, > And I will pledge with mine; > Or leave a kisse but in the cup, > And Ile not looke for wine. > > He was not asking Celia to restrict her drinking of healths to his alone > but > either calling her his "onely" or, more likely, saying that her eyes were > the > one intoxicant he needed, just as "leave a kisse but in the cup" means that > a > blown kiss, the mere aftermath of her lips, is all he wants on his. > > The traditional usage is actual in his lines every time somebody reads them > > with understanding; it was still going strong when Dick Powell, in a Busby > Berkeley musical, sang the magnificent compliment "I only have eyes for > you". > Put the "only" elsewhere and the schmooze evaporates: "Only I have eyes for > > you" (nobody else would look at you twice); "I have only eyes for you" (I > like looking but don't want to touch); "I have eyes for you only" (the > others > leave me cold) - none of them matches the hyperbole of "I only have eyes > for > you", which can imply he was given vision just to look at her. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list I've always wondered about the grammar of the opening line of Stevens's "The Snow Man." Does "One must have a mind of winter" mean "One should have a a mind of winter" or "One would really have to have a mind of winter"? I can't imagine Stevens, who often fled to warmer climes, recommending the former. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jul 16 20:47:41 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:47:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Stern's Sonnets Message-ID: <154.10fc061e.2a6618ad@cs.com> In a message dated 7/16/2002 6:09:06 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > True, there's something vegetal in his sensibility...some might > say his lines are as unmanageable as kudzu. And he once wrote > a poem featuring my one of my favorite weed-trees, "Sumac." > I even recall some wag saying the quintessential Gerald Stern > poem begins, "I'm sitting under a maple tree..." If you're going > to find fault with Stern, you should pass up the pruning knife > and go right to the machete I pretty much did, when I reviewed his selected poems. A nice enough guy, I guess, but, really, who cares that much about mulch? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 16 22:10:46 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:10:46 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive Message-ID: <199.9cef04f.2a662c26@aol.com> In a message dated 7/16/2002 7:46:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: > none of them matches the hyperbole of "I only have eyes for > > you", which can imply he was given vision just to look at her. > > Re that last: Would we want to go there? That's like Bush saying we > were given the right to vote so we could vote for him. > Jim, the tautology of love?...love as self-reflexive gesture? Proving that any reading, scrutinzed so long and hard, is apt to go awry. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Jul 17 09:24:01 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 06:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Stern's Sonnets Message-ID: <20020717132401.32C1A36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stern's Sonnets Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:47:41 EDT Size: 4059 URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Jul 17 10:52:53 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:52:53 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive References: <199.9cef04f.2a662c26@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D3584C5.EC962A65@earthlink.net> Finnegan wrote: In a message dated 7/16/2002 7:46:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes: none of them matches the hyperbole of "I only have eyes for > you", which can imply he was given vision just to look at her. Re that last: Would we want to go there? That's like Bush saying we were given the right to vote so we could vote for him. Jim, the tautology of love?...love as self-reflexive gesture? Proving that any reading, scrutinzed so long and hard, is apt to go awry. Finnegan Exactly. And the average reader does not approach a poem with an eye to scrutinizing long and hard. For that reader, the poem speaks first time or it doesn't. Don't ask me who "the average reader" might be. - Jim From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Jul 17 11:08:54 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:08:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive In-Reply-To: <3D3584C5.EC962A65@earthlink.net> Message-ID: { Exactly. And the average reader does not approach a poem with an eye to { scrutinizing long and hard. For that reader, the poem speaks first time { or it doesn't. { { Don't ask me who "the average reader" might be. { { - Jim That's the reader who reads only averages. Hal A monk saw a cat and asked, "I call it a cat. Master, what do you call it?" Joshu said, "You calling it a cat." Yoel Hoffman, trans., in *Radical Zen: The Sayings of Joshu* Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jul 17 12:31:22 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 12:31:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive In-Reply-To: References: <3D3584C5.EC962A65@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D35639A.6290.238F77@localhost> > { Exactly. And the average reader does not approach a poem with an eye to > { scrutinizing long and hard. For that reader, the poem speaks first time > { or it doesn't. > { Don't ask me who "the average reader" might be. > { - Jim Cervantes One who can't read Tennyson? Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Jul 17 13:01:36 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:01:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive References: <3D3584C5.EC962A65@earthlink.net> <3D35639A.6290.238F77@localhost> Message-ID: <3D35A2EF.9CA96D7C@earthlink.net> Marcus Bales wrote: > > > { Exactly. And the average reader does not approach a poem with an eye to > > { scrutinizing long and hard. For that reader, the poem speaks first time > > { or it doesn't. > > { Don't ask me who "the average reader" might be. > > { - Jim Cervantes > > One who can't read Tennyson? Aha! So am I the offending editor? Why didn't you just come out and say so? Never mind, I know why. Anyway, I can, in fact, read Tennyson, just as I can read handwriting on the wall. But I don't have to like Tennyson, do I? Nor do I have to write like him, like some people I know. - Jim From gmcvay at patriot.net Wed Jul 17 13:08:48 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:08:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive References: <3D3584C5.EC962A65@earthlink.net> <3D35639A.6290.238F77@localhost> <3D35A2EF.9CA96D7C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D35A493.1C050A99@patriot.net> Dear Jim, If there is handwriting on your wall, perhaps you need to confine young Aidan and his crayons to a playpen amply equipped with paper, or train your dog to bark like hell whenever the tiny graffitist approaches. Seriously, I quite agree: it is possible to acknowledge the role of Tennyson in poetry in English without personally having a taste for him. I mean, I go around calling myself a poet, and I can't abide the tastes of either coffee or beer. Gwyn From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Jul 17 13:32:47 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:32:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive References: <3D3584C5.EC962A65@earthlink.net> <3D35639A.6290.238F77@localhost> <3D35A2EF.9CA96D7C@earthlink.net> <3D35A493.1C050A99@patriot.net> Message-ID: <3D35AA3E.148D1E19@earthlink.net> Gwyn McVay wrote: > > Dear Jim, > > If there is handwriting on your wall, perhaps you need to confine young > Aidan and his crayons to a playpen amply equipped with paper, or train > your dog to bark like hell whenever the tiny graffitist approaches. My grandson is merely testing the compatibility of surfaces and can experiment to his heart's content. Certain people (a.k.a. "parents") don't agree with me. > > Seriously, I quite agree: it is possible to acknowledge the role of > Tennyson in poetry in English without personally having a taste for him. > I mean, I go around calling myself a poet, and I can't abide the tastes > of either coffee or beer. > Dig it. Mr. T., however, is rather like stale or flat beer. What *is* his role in poetry and English, anyway? I think I knew in high school. - Jim From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jul 17 13:54:36 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:54:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive In-Reply-To: <3D35A2EF.9CA96D7C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D35771C.22038.6FC4A9@localhost> > > > { Exactly. And the average reader does not approach a poem with an eye to > > > { scrutinizing long and hard. For that reader, the poem speaks first time > > > { or it doesn't. > > > { Don't ask me who "the average reader" might be. > > > { - Jim Cervantes Marcus: > > One who can't read Tennyson? Jim C: > Aha! So am I the offending editor? Why didn't you just come out and > say so? << I did, I did -- at the time. Since then I thought everyone knew it was you. Jim C: > Anyway, I can, in fact, read Tennyson, just as I can read handwriting on > the wall. But I don't have to like Tennyson, do I?<< No, you surely do not have to like Tennyson; but your claim was that you couldn't, didn't, and wouldn't read Tennyson, not that you didn't like him. Or if you meant that you didn't like him by saying you couldn't, didn't, and wouldn't read Tennyson you went so far past "I don't like Tennyson" in that claim that it is reasonable to believe that your views on Tennyson are extreme indeed. And though I pointed all this out at the time, and have referred to it from time to time since then, you haven't, to my knowledge, changed your claim that you couldn't, didn't, and wouldn't read Tennyson. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Jul 17 14:00:37 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:00:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive References: <3D35771C.22038.6FC4A9@localhost> Message-ID: <3D35B0C3.17B31125@earthlink.net> Marcus Bales wrote: > > And though I pointed all this out at the time, and have referred to it > from time to time since then, you haven't, to my knowledge, > changed your claim that you couldn't, didn't, and wouldn't read > Tennyson. > Semantic crapola. I am quite literate, thank you, but seem to have made the mistake of assuming you'd understand the vernacular of "I can't read Tennyson" as in "I can't watch Baywatch," which of course is understood as meaning one abhors the content and is not blind. But, in the case of my Tennyson remark, you were being intentionally dense for your own purposes. No more from me on this. - Jim From chryss at silcom.com Wed Jul 17 14:12:34 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:12:34 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive In-Reply-To: <3D35B0C3.17B31125@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > as in "I can't watch Baywatch," which of course is understood > as meaning one abhors the content and is not blind. True enough. If there's one thing to enjoy about Baywatch, it's the visuals. From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jul 17 14:38:48 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:38:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive In-Reply-To: <3D35B0C3.17B31125@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D358178.26804.983CE9@localhost> Marcus: >And though I pointed all this out at the time, and have referred to it > > from time to time since then, you haven't, to my knowledge, > > changed your claim that you couldn't, didn't, and wouldn't read > > Tennyson. JimC: > Semantic crapola. << Well, if it is semantic crapola now, why didn't you object to it as semantic crapola then? It's not as if there wasn't a good deal of discussion about this at the time. JimC: > ... the vernacular of "I can't read > Tennyson" as in "I can't watch Baywatch," which of course is understood > as meaning one abhors the content and is not blind.<< Well, I don't say you can't read; I only take you at your word that you consider, as you now say again, that Tennyson has all the value to you that, for example, Baywatch has, and for pretty much the same reasons: you view it as beneath you, or beneath contempt, or something -- but at any rate, not as something that you have no duty to know very much more about than to know the name of. Once again, Jim, it may be that your comparison of Tennyson's position as a poet in the tradition of western poetry to Baywatch's position as a TV show to the tradition of western TV is more than you want to say -- but that's what you seem to be trying to say: that Tennyson is to poetry as Baywatch is to TV -- which is pretty much what I took you to say the first time, when you said you couldn't, didn't, and wouldn't read Tennyson. Because your claim is not that you can't read -- it's that you can't read Tennyson -- in exactly the sense (and I took it in that sense) that you can't watch Baywatch: Tennyson, you seem to be saying, is too crappy as poetry in the same way that Baywatch is too crappy as television. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From marcus at designerglass.com Wed Jul 17 14:53:26 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:53:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive In-Reply-To: <3D358178.26804.983CE9@localhost> References: <3D35B0C3.17B31125@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D3584E6.16325.A5A4BC@localhost> Marcus: > ... but at any rate, not as something that > you have no duty to know very much more about than to know the > name of. Sorry, that should be ... but at any rate, not as something that you have *a* duty to know very much more about than to know the name of. Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From JackKerouac25 at aol.com Wed Jul 17 16:17:47 2002 From: JackKerouac25 at aol.com (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:17:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry Message-ID: <7BFE3C75.44AAB8F2.97945D2E@aol.com> A prose-writer friend of mine and I were discussing film noir recently, and he noted how works by authors such as Dashiell Hammett and Raymond Chandler are particularly suited to the screen because the works are, at least by some estimation, "cinematic." For example, Hammett's _The Maltese Falcon_ is third-person dramatic. Then, we went on into a discussion about the "heros" in these stories: two-fisted ruffians who live and die by their own codes. I don't know who coined the term, but I think it's applicable: "hard boiled." Since I am a poet, the question immediately arose: if there is such a thing as hard-boiled fiction about fiction, is there such a thing as hard-boiled poetry? That is to say, is there such a thing is poetry-noir? Hmmm..... Jeff Newberry From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Wed Jul 17 18:17:08 2002 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:17:08 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020717151707.00dbcae8@medicine.nodak.edu> Lines purportedly discovered after a class in comparative literature at a down-at-the-heels English public school: Cursed beyond benisons, Hell's deepest denizens Wrote rhymes without any sense, So now translate Tennyson's. (Anonymous, and rightly so...) Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu From MillB at aol.com Wed Jul 17 16:26:15 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:26:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry Message-ID: Edward Fields? From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Jul 17 16:31:05 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:31:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { Edward Fields? { I guess you mean Edward Field, but there's nothing hard-boiled about either him or his work. Kenneth Fearing maybe? Hal A monk saw a cat and asked, "I call it a cat. Master, what do you call it?" Joshu said, "You calling it a cat." Yoel Hoffman, trans., in *Radical Zen: The Sayings of Joshu* Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jul 17 16:34:56 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:34:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kingsley Tufts Poetry Awards References: <3D35B0C3.17B31125@earthlink.net> <3D3584E6.16325.A5A4BC@localhost> Message-ID: <000e01c22dd1$7d4b5920$5dadfea9@j1c1k6> This may be old news but it was new to me: my The Runaway Spoon Press today got a circular about a contest that sounds like a good one--though nothing my kind of poetry would have much chance in, I'm sure. You need to send Claremont Graduate University (160 E. Tenth, Harper East B7, Claremont CA 91700-6165) 5 copies of a book published between 15 Sept 2001 and 15 Sept 2002, an entry form you can get at http://www.cgu.edu/tufts, one copy of a one-page cover sheet listing title of work, poets name, address, telephone number, fax number (if any, I assume) and e.mail address (if any) plus one list of previously published work. There are two contests, one for a first book ($10,000) and one for "an emerging poet, one who is past the very beginning but has not yet reached the acknowledged pinnacle of his or her career" ($100,000). The five judges (not counting the screeners) are Robert Wrigley, Carol Muske-Dukes, Robert Pinsky, Alice Quinn and Charles H. Rowell. These are supposed to represent "a cross-section of the American poetry community!" I'm not familiar with the work of any of the previous winners, but one was Thomas Lux (1995) who has been mentioned here, I believe. I looked carefully for mention of an entry fee, but there doesn't seem to be one, which is a main reason I thought it worth telling new-poetry about. I also find the focus of the bigger award on "emerging poets" interesting. How can one tell if one's emerging or at the pinnacle? For twenty years I've reached my pinnacle as a poet at least once every two years. I can't imagine ever feeling like I've gone as high as a poet as I can, or--to be more precise--not knowing pretty definitely the particulars of one or more kinds of poems that would represent a next step up (in complexity, at any rate) for me. For instance, still in the future for me is a visual poetry epic that would consist of at least a hundred separate poems, that would use every technique I know. I have a lot of it outlined in my head--and if it came off, it'd be my masterpiece to that point--but when I'd gotten it done, I'm sure I'd have all kinds of new ideas about a REAL masterpiece. Probably using animation and composing music for it! Anyway, I hope this announcement is useful to someone. --Bob G. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Jul 17 16:52:26 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:52:26 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry References: <7BFE3C75.44AAB8F2.97945D2E@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D35D90A.AADD2288@earthlink.net> Ai's _The Killing Floor_? - Jim JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote: > > A prose-writer friend of mine and I were discussing film noir recently, and he noted how works by authors such as Dashiell Hammett and Raymond Chandler are particularly suited to the screen because the works are, at least by some estimation, "cinematic." For example, Hammett's _The Maltese Falcon_ is third-person dramatic. Then, we went on into a discussion about the "heros" in these stories: two-fisted ruffians who live and die by their own codes. I don't know who coined the term, but I think it's applicable: "hard boiled." > > Since I am a poet, the question immediately arose: if there is such a thing as hard-boiled fiction about fiction, is there such a thing as hard-boiled poetry? That is to say, is there such a thing is poetry-noir? > > Hmmm..... > > Jeff Newberry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From MillB at aol.com Wed Jul 17 16:52:35 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:52:35 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry Message-ID: <41.20453bff.2a673313@aol.com> My mistake. Edward Field. From MillB at aol.com Wed Jul 17 16:58:18 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:58:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry Message-ID: <9.2b14f7e2.2a67346a@aol.com> C.K. Williams From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jul 17 17:07:21 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:07:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry Message-ID: <11e.13c5759e.2a673689@cs.com> In a message dated 7/17/2002 3:19:06 PM Central Daylight Time, JackKerouac25 at aol.com writes: > > Since I am a poet, the question immediately arose: if there is such a > thing as hard-boiled fiction about fiction, is there such a thing as > hard-boiled poetry? That is to say, is there such a thing is poetry-noir? > > Jim Daniels and Alan Dugan come to mind. Someone (was it Brooks Haxton?) did a film-noir narrative poem some years back. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jul 17 17:08:15 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:08:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Working Class Poetry Message-ID: This thread has been pretty well worked over, but there are new poems by Ginger Andrews in the current Hudson Review. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jul 17 17:10:08 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:10:08 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive Message-ID: <25.2aa685ed.2a673730@cs.com> In a message dated 7/17/2002 1:18:14 PM Central Daylight Time, chryss at silcom.com writes: > > >as in "I can't watch Baywatch," which of course is understood > >as meaning one abhors the content and is not blind. > > True enough. If there's one thing to enjoy about Baywatch, it's the > visuals. That's what people have been saying about me for years. I'm damn tired of being just another pretty face. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB at aol.com Wed Jul 17 17:21:02 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:21:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry Message-ID: <179.b702d9d.2a6739be@aol.com> Lynda Hull has a few film noir poems. From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Jul 17 17:58:08 2002 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:58:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry References: <179.b702d9d.2a6739be@aol.com> Message-ID: <004901c22ddd$0a2ae1c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Joseph Moncure March, whose hardboiled, book-length poem, The Set-Up, was actually made into a movie with Robert Ryan. SITUATIONS pub date August 1 to order - or for more info http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 5:21 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry > Lynda Hull has a few film noir poems. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From smith948 at duq.edu Wed Jul 17 17:56:21 2002 From: smith948 at duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The lavender of the subjunctive In-Reply-To: <3D35AA3E.148D1E19@earthlink.net> Message-ID: I certainly knew what Mr. T's role was when I was in high school. A-team iif not A-list. Ellen Smith On Wed, 17 Jul 2002, James Cervantes wrote: > > > Gwyn McVay wrote: > > > > Dear Jim, > > > > If there is handwriting on your wall, perhaps you need to confine young > > Aidan and his crayons to a playpen amply equipped with paper, or train > > your dog to bark like hell whenever the tiny graffitist approaches. > > My grandson is merely testing the compatibility of surfaces and can > experiment to his heart's content. Certain people (a.k.a. "parents") > don't agree with me. > > > > > Seriously, I quite agree: it is possible to acknowledge the role of > > Tennyson in poetry in English without personally having a taste for him. > > I mean, I go around calling myself a poet, and I can't abide the tastes > > of either coffee or beer. > > > > Dig it. Mr. T., however, is rather like stale or flat beer. What *is* > his role in poetry and English, anyway? I think I knew in high school. > > - Jim > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From gmcvay at patriot.net Wed Jul 17 18:00:59 2002 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry In-Reply-To: <004901c22ddd$0a2ae1c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: I've only seen a couple of pages of it, but isn't there a fairly famous adaptation of "The Waste Land" into a detective-noir graphic novel? (In one panel, the detective is in an art museum and passes three water vessels helpfully labelled "jug," "jug," "jug.") Poetry over easy? Poetry on toast? I know: I must be a writer of Scrambled Poetry. Gwyn From smith948 at duq.edu Wed Jul 17 18:07:57 2002 From: smith948 at duq.edu (ellen smith) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry In-Reply-To: <11e.13c5759e.2a673689@cs.com> Message-ID: Lynn Emanuel works toward film noir effects in both *The Dig* and *Then, Suddenly.* Also I think of parts of Leslie Scalapino's *The Front Matter/Dead Souls"...seems like people are taking "hard-boiled" as thematics (which would seem to be the reasoning behind Jim Daniels or CK Williams), but I think there is a self-consciously aesthetic quality (a palpable awareness of the formulaic) that makes film noir what it is...and poetry, to be analogous, would need to have that artificiality which neither Daniels nor Williams have...You wouldn't call *American Beauty* film noir would you? Ellen Smith On Wed, 17 Jul 2002 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/17/2002 3:19:06 PM Central Daylight Time, > JackKerouac25 at aol.com writes: > > > > Since I am a poet, the question immediately arose: if there is such a > > thing as hard-boiled fiction about fiction, is there such a thing as > > hard-boiled poetry? That is to say, is there such a thing is poetry-noir? > > > > > Jim Daniels and Alan Dugan come to mind. Someone (was it Brooks Haxton?) did > a film-noir narrative poem some years back. > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jul 17 18:08:20 2002 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:08:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry Message-ID: <10f.141103a5.2a6744d4@cs.com> In a message dated 7/17/2002 5:04:08 PM Central Daylight Time, gmcvay at patriot.net writes: > > I've only seen a couple of pages of it, but isn't there a fairly famous > adaptation of "The Waste Land" into a detective-noir graphic novel? (In > one panel, the detective is in an art museum and passes three water > vessels helpfully labelled "jug," "jug," "jug.") > > Poetry over easy? Poetry on toast? I know: I must be a writer of Scrambled > Poetry. > > Gwyn It's wonderful. It involves the search for Stetson. I forget who did it, but it's a hoot. Wonder if it's still in print. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shep at attbi.com Wed Jul 17 18:09:59 2002 From: shep at attbi.com (shep) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:09:59 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If dead poets are allowed, what about Bukowski? From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Jul 17 18:14:51 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:14:51 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry References: Message-ID: <3D35EC5B.AA6E93A8@earthlink.net> Gwyn McVay wrote: > > I've only seen a couple of pages of it, but isn't there a fairly famous > adaptation of "The Waste Land" into a detective-noir graphic novel? (In > one panel, the detective is in an art museum and passes three water > vessels helpfully labelled "jug," "jug," "jug.") > > Poetry over easy? Poetry on toast? I know: I must be a writer of Scrambled > Poetry. > Hard boiled poetry. Easter. Yeats. Pastel colors. Tiny marshmallow chicks that are hard as a rock come June. Does "hard boiled" have to be synonymous with "noir"? - Jim From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Wed Jul 17 20:53:55 2002 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:53:55 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020717175354.00df6358@medicine.nodak.edu> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1330 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jpjones at ihug.com.au Wed Jul 17 18:51:53 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:51:53 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: How about Nicholas Christopher's Desperate Characters, a novella in verse published in the late 1980s I think. It's the very epitome of noir and hardboiled. Cheers, Jill _________________________________ Jill Jones 50 Ruby Street Marrickville NSW 2204 AUSTRALIA jpjones at ihug.com.au http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones From jpjones at ihug.com.au Wed Jul 17 19:03:06 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 09:03:06 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Also Dorothy Porter's verse novella, The Monkey's Mask. An Australian poet you may have heard of. Jill _________________________________ Jill Jones 50 Ruby Street Marrickville NSW 2204 AUSTRALIA jpjones at ihug.com.au http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jul 17 20:10:41 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:10:41 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry References: Message-ID: <016b01c22def$905b6e60$61864cca@JROSS2> Yeah, I would ... but not necessarily "hard boiled." Oh -- and my first collection was called _ B-Grade_: very visual and a female version of "hard boiled". Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "ellen smith" To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 6:07 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry > Lynn Emanuel works toward film noir effects in both *The Dig* and > *Then, Suddenly.* Also I think of parts of Leslie Scalapino's *The Front > Matter/Dead Souls"...seems like people are taking "hard-boiled" as > thematics (which would seem to be the reasoning behind Jim Daniels or > CK Williams), but I think there is a self-consciously aesthetic quality > (a palpable awareness of the formulaic) that makes film noir what it > is...and poetry, to be analogous, would need to have that artificiality > which neither Daniels nor Williams have...You wouldn't call *American > Beauty* film noir would you? > > Ellen Smith > > > On Wed, 17 Jul 2002 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 7/17/2002 3:19:06 PM Central Daylight Time, > > JackKerouac25 at aol.com writes: > > > > > > Since I am a poet, the question immediately arose: if there is such a > > > thing as hard-boiled fiction about fiction, is there such a thing as > > > hard-boiled poetry? That is to say, is there such a thing is poetry-noir? > > > > > > > > Jim Daniels and Alan Dugan come to mind. Someone (was it Brooks Haxton?) did > > a film-noir narrative poem some years back. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jul 17 20:11:59 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:11:59 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry References: Message-ID: <017701c22def$be8276d0$61864cca@JROSS2> Must we? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "shep" To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 6:09 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry > If dead poets are allowed, what about Bukowski? > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jul 17 20:14:23 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:14:23 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry References: <3D35EC5B.AA6E93A8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <017f01c22df0$13b623e0$61864cca@JROSS2> Um -- as a person who is including 'Crime Fiction' as literary references in her thesis and has made a study of said topic, I'd say, "Yeah, it does ..." OH, wait -- that was tongue in cheek, wasn't it ... Well, wasn't it? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry > > > Gwyn McVay wrote: > > > > I've only seen a couple of pages of it, but isn't there a fairly famous > > adaptation of "The Waste Land" into a detective-noir graphic novel? (In > > one panel, the detective is in an art museum and passes three water > > vessels helpfully labelled "jug," "jug," "jug.") > > > > Poetry over easy? Poetry on toast? I know: I must be a writer of Scrambled > > Poetry. > > > > Hard boiled poetry. Easter. Yeats. Pastel colors. Tiny marshmallow > chicks that are hard as a rock come June. > > Does "hard boiled" have to be synonymous with "noir"? > > - Jim > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jul 17 20:17:30 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:17:30 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry References: Message-ID: <01a601c22df1$98aabdd0$61864cca@JROSS2> How about Dorothy Porter's _The Monkey's Mask_? It may not be hardboiled enough for you lot, but it's in verse, noir and involves not only crime, but the writing scene in Australia, as well. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill Jones" To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 6:51 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry > How about Nicholas Christopher's Desperate Characters, a novella in verse > published in the late 1980s I think. It's the very epitome of noir and > hardboiled. > > Cheers, > Jill > > > _________________________________ > Jill Jones > 50 Ruby Street > Marrickville NSW 2204 > AUSTRALIA > > jpjones at ihug.com.au > http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jul 18 08:27:11 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:27:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Basho, [untitled] Message-ID: Fleas, lice, The horse pissing By my pillow. --Basho Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Cadaly at aol.com Thu Jul 18 13:35:26 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:35:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Kingsley Tufts Poetry Awards Message-ID: <16.225523e9.2a68565e@aol.com> two awards: Kate and Kingsley one need not be published to be "emerging" (which is the Kate Tufts) although, like Amy Lowell travelling, the winner usually is published a larger cross section of poets act as readers -- I know Eloise Klein Healy was a reader last year I hear being a reader for one of these contests is an incredible learning experience (from EKH) because there are so many of the 2500 annual American poetry books that an reader hasn't read before, but a reader hasn't read about -- oh, and the readers get paid Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com Sat Jul 20 06:49:09 2002 From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:49:09 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry Message-ID: Yeh, I'm still a little confused, too, over the definition (but I like the notion that the concept perhaps exists - just waiting for a name...). How close is what's being explored in these posts to Urban Realism? Or, are you wanting a playful stylistic (perhaps similie smitten) wry side of writing that seems to tackle subjects with a sideways glance and, like film noir didn't use too much lighting, doesn't give too much away? (which is an interesting voice) Or are you suggesting poets who're tackling the big issues of urban life: mugging, sex, drugs, from the pavement inwards? Can anyone give examples (a stanza or two might do), that gives the flavour and not just names? (... I mean CK Williams has differing styles, differing subjects, and is it fair to assume you mean you mean the poem that mentions someone called Bob?) Bob Cooper >From: ellen smith >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry >Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:07:57 -0400 (EDT) > >Lynn Emanuel works toward film noir effects in both *The Dig* and >*Then, Suddenly.* Also I think of parts of Leslie Scalapino's *The Front >Matter/Dead Souls"...seems like people are taking "hard-boiled" as >thematics (which would seem to be the reasoning behind Jim Daniels or >CK Williams), but I think there is a self-consciously aesthetic quality >(a palpable awareness of the formulaic) that makes film noir what it >is...and poetry, to be analogous, would need to have that artificiality >which neither Daniels nor Williams have...You wouldn't call *American >Beauty* film noir would you? > >Ellen Smith > > >On Wed, 17 Jul 2002 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 7/17/2002 3:19:06 PM Central Daylight Time, > > JackKerouac25 at aol.com writes: > > > > > > Since I am a poet, the question immediately arose: if there is such a > > > thing as hard-boiled fiction about fiction, is there such a thing as > > > hard-boiled poetry? That is to say, is there such a thing is >poetry-noir? > > > > > > > > Jim Daniels and Alan Dugan come to mind. Someone (was it Brooks >Haxton?) did > > a film-noir narrative poem some years back. > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx From Thom424 at aol.com Sat Jul 20 09:08:10 2002 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:08:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: William Stafford Poem Message-ID: I'm looking for a William Stafford poem entitled "Gaia." Can't locate it in THE WAY IT IS, STORIES THAT COULD BE TRUE, or any of his many books that I own. Anyone know this poem? Please post/send my way if you do. Grazie! Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Jul 20 11:12:23 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:12:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: John Ashbery, "White-Collar Crime" Message-ID: White-Collar Crime Now that you've done it, say OK, that's it for a while. His fault wasn't great; it was over-eagerness; it didn't deserve The death penalty, but it's different when it happens In your neighborhood, on your doorstep; the dropping light spoilt nicely his Name tags and leggings; all those things that belonged to him, As it were, were thrown out overnight, onto the street, So much for fashion. The moon decrees That it be with us awhile to enhance the atmosphere But in the long run serious concerns prevail, such as What time is it and what are you going to do about that? Gaily inventing brand names, place-names, you were surrounded By such abundance, yet it seems only fair to start taking in The washing now. *There was a boy.* Yet by the time the program Is over, it turns out there was enough time and more than enough things For everybody to latch on to, and that in essence it's there, the Young people and their sweet names falling, almost too many of these. --John Ashbery, fr. *Shadow Trains* Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Jul 20 17:35:06 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 14:35:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] announcing RelativeLinks Message-ID: <3D39D78B.7118845@earthlink.net> RelativeLinks, a new review medium for poetry published exclusively online, is interested in reviews of single-author or collaborative collections of poetry presented as electronic chapbooks or in pdf format by publishers with editorial selection standards. We are not interested in samples of work on sites that exist to sell print publications, nor in work that exists on authors' promotional sites or homepages. RelativeLinks will be cumulative, with new reviews added throughout the year. These will comprise Volume I and will be archived once a new publishing year (Volume II) begins. We will begin by publishing initial reviews in November, 2002. We see RelativeLinks as a service to poets, publishers, reviewers, and especially readers. Our fondest hope is that RelativeLinks will help expand readership of poetry online. For further information, guidelines, and links to publishers, please visit the site at: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html Note: Please feel free to forward this notice to anyone who might be interested. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Jul 20 18:14:00 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 18:14:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] announcing RelativeLinks References: <3D39D78B.7118845@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002901c2303a$c03c2a00$677efea9@j1c1k6> This sounds like a definite Good Thing. A suggestion: that you get a list going of collections you want reviews of, with URL. In case you are not planning to do it, I would suggest, too, that you accept as many reasonably literate reviews of a particular collection as you can. I hope you allow feedback on reviews, too. And, as one with a poetry website that is pretty much idel because of all the work it requires, I apologize for possible giving you way too much to do. --Bob G. > RelativeLinks, a new review medium for poetry published exclusively > online, is interested in reviews of single-author or collaborative > collections of poetry presented as electronic chapbooks or in pdf format > by publishers with editorial selection standards. We are not interested > in samples of work on sites that exist to sell print publications, nor > in work that exists on authors' promotional sites or homepages. > > RelativeLinks will be cumulative, with new reviews added throughout the > year. These will comprise Volume I and will be archived once a new > publishing year (Volume II) begins. We will begin by publishing initial > reviews in November, 2002. > > We see RelativeLinks as a service to poets, publishers, reviewers, and > especially readers. Our fondest hope is that RelativeLinks will help > expand readership of poetry online. > > For further information, guidelines, and links to publishers, please > visit the site at: > > http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html > > > Note: Please feel free to forward this notice to anyone who might be interested. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sat Jul 20 18:36:30 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:36:30 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] announcing RelativeLinks References: <3D39D78B.7118845@earthlink.net> <002901c2303a$c03c2a00$677efea9@j1c1k6> Message-ID: <3D39E5ED.3011F8F4@earthlink.net> Bob Grumman wrote: > > This sounds like a definite Good Thing. A suggestion: that you get a list > going of collections > you want reviews of, with URL. That info is there, via the "About" page or the "Submissions" page - see "Links." > In case you are > not planning to do it, I would suggest, too, that > you accept as many reasonably literate reviews of > a particular collection as you can. I hope you allow feedback on reviews, > too. And, as one with a poetry website that is pretty much idel because of > all the work it requires, I apologize for possible giving you way too much > to do. > Advice taken. The too much to do is always there. - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The fundamental delusion of humanity is to suppose that I am here and you are out there." - Yasutani Roshi ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html Poetserv: http://www.poetserv.com From jpjones at ihug.com.au Mon Jul 22 19:19:42 2002 From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:19:42 +1000 Subject: [New-Poetry] test only - do not open In-Reply-To: <3D39D78B.7118845@earthlink.net> Message-ID: _________________________________ Jill Jones 50 Ruby Street Marrickville NSW 2204 AUSTRALIA jpjones at ihug.com.au http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones From JackKerouac25 at aol.com Mon Jul 22 23:26:06 2002 From: JackKerouac25 at aol.com (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:26:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Philip Larkin "A Study of Reading Habits" Message-ID: <2843D549.7194CFFF.97945D2E@aol.com> A Study of Reading Habits Philip Larkin When getting my nose in a book Cured most things short of school, It was worth ruining my eyes To know I could still keep cool, And deal out the old right hook To dirty dogs twice my size. Later, with inch-thick specs, Evil was just my lark: Me and my coat and fangs Had ripping times in the dark. The women I clubbed with sex! I broke them up like meringues. Don't read much now: the dude Who lets the girl down before The hero arrives, the chap Who's yellow and keeps the store Seem far too familiar. Get stewed: Books are a load of crap. ___________________________________________________ Jeff Newberry "Just one more dirty dog twice Larkin's size" University of West Florida From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 23 13:20:25 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:20:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulse Shadows Message-ID: Pulse Shadows (1996) Meditations on Paul Celan for Soprano, String Quartet and Ensemble Claron McFadden (soprano) Arditti Quartet Nash Ensemble Reinbert De Leeuw Recorded at The BBC Hippodrome, London TELDEC WDR 3 3984-26867-2 DDD [63:33] It is just possible that anyone who has struggled with Birtwistle?s music in the past could be won over by this extraordinary work and recording. On the face of it is an unlikely coupling. Paul Celan?s mysterious, emotionally charged imagery does not seem an immediate match for Birtwistle?s uncompromising, stark and direct musical utterances. Yet what results is a work that gets right inside the very atmosphere of Celan?s world in a truly haunting and affecting way. As Stephen Pruslin explains in his booklet note it started "almost by accident". Birtwistle happened to come across Michael Hamburger?s English translation of Celan?s White and Light one day in a magazine and decided to use it in a song setting. Shortly after, in 1991, two other poems, Night and Tenebrae, were set and the same year Birtwistle produced a brief Movement for String Quartet. Quickly adding two further quartet movements the composer suddenly found that he had two mini-cycles of three songs and three quartet pieces on his hands and thus the idea was born to create a multiplying cycle that would ultimately develop into the eighteen movements of Pulse Shadows. Of the movements for quartet, Birtwistle creates a set of four "Friezes" and five "Fantasias", the Fantasias evoking resonances of early English viol music and exploring the material set down in the Friezes in freer form. The songs are interspersed between, the exception being Todesfuge, Celan?s Deathfugue, where Birtwistle uses Frieze 4 and the string quartet to provide an instrumental commentary on the words of the poem. The composer himself has referred to the quartet pieces as "the songs that could not be written", instrumental responses to Celan?s holocaust inspired poetry that Birtwistle felt to be too personal to be set, in a literal sense, to music. Although Birtwistle intended that any of the songs or quartet pieces could stand alone as works in their own right, he has succeeded in creating an extraordinary sense of unity, due largely to the close relationships that exist between the "Frieze" and "Fantasia" elements of the quartet pieces, these serving to bind the work together. That said I would strongly recommend that after first listening to the disc, the various "movements" are listened to again, both in terms of the quartet pieces separate to the songs and even breaking down the quartet pieces further to listen to the Fantasias and Friezes as individual sets. Certainly for this listener, this was a process that paid considerable dividends when going back to the work in the order set down on the disc. It is a difficult and possibly unjustifiable task to select "highlights" from a work of this consistency, but I would single out Fantasias 3 and 4 for their very personal response to the aforementioned textural resonances of string music of an earlier age, the setting of Todtnauberg for its sheer impact in the way Birtwistle brings the poem into focus by combining the song setting with the spoken word and Todesfuge-Frieze 4, for the marvellous imagination involved in what amounts to a strikingly individual, contemporary response to the art of fugue. With artists of the quality of the Arditti Quartet and the Nash Ensemble, the performances are consistently excellent both in the songs and quartet pieces. Claron McFadden delivers the vocal lines with fine articulation and never sounds uneasy, despite the considerable demands of Birtwistle?s writing. The recording too is beyond reproach, crystal clear and balanced to perfection. And so I come back to my opening comment. I know a good number of people who have always maintained that they will never "conquer" Birtwistle?s music. Yet Pulse Shadows has a deeply rich vein of melody, lyricism and above all, emotion, at its heart. Easy listening then? Of course not. Birtwistle will always challenge, provoke, question and even intimidate the very fundamentals of musical art. I would simply maintain that in this highly personal response to Celan?s equally personal poetry, Birtwistle has created a work of atmospheric beauty and imagery. I can think of relatively few composers who could match it for the sheer intensity of its expression. Christopher Thomas. From Cadaly at aol.com Tue Jul 23 13:39:52 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:39:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Hard Boiled Poetry Message-ID: <122.148dbfab.2a6eeee8@aol.com> in fact, it is really boring how much has been written about noir poetry; hard-boiled is pretty much code for "male" the great b-movie actresses who are still alive (see DARK CITY DAMES) accept American Beauty as a noir possibly the best monster film poetry is Ed Fields' Krutnik, Frank. IN A LONELY STREET: FILM NOIR, GENRE, AND MASCULINITY, New York: Routledge, 1991. Nicholas Christopher, Dangerous Characters, and also a nonfiction book on film noir issued by Basic Books? Louis Goldstein, THE AMERICAN POET AT THE MOVIES Frank O'Hara. Jack Spicer, Allan Ginsberg, James Merrill, et.al. Karl Shapiro. Rachel Loden has film poems. more recently, Suzanne Lummis, which is retro noir, not neo noir neo noir is Walter Mosely (a student of William Matthews'), BLADERUNNER, etc. From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Jul 23 16:08:42 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 16:08:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pulse Shadows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: { It is just possible that anyone who has struggled with Birtwistle?s music in { the past could be won over by this extraordinary work and recording. { And so I come back to my opening comment. I know a good number of people who { have always maintained that they will never "conquer" Birtwistle?s music. [major snippage here] But what is it with people who think/feel they have to beat music/poetry/whatever to its knees? Hal "If there is anyone here I have not offended, I apologize." --Johannes Brahms Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 23 21:09:17 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:09:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] soft avant-garde Message-ID: <74.203317c0.2a6f583d@aol.com> > A review in The Boston Review of American poets Forrest Gander > and Cole Swensen raises some interesting questions about the > premises and proceedings of "lyrical abstraction," arguably the > dominant academic mode in U.S. poetry today, as easy and > formulaic as the dominant "scenic" workshop mode of the 70's and > 80's. The article's first paragraph is below. > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/ > > "As contemporary poets turn in increasing numbers to the > fashionable strategy of combining experimental techniques with > lyric and narrative modes, many of these recent efforts have taken > on a familiar look and a familiar set of conventions. (Calvin Bedient, > writing in these pages, recently dubbed it the "soft avant-garde.") > One image leads to another in associative or nonsequiturial > cascades. Sequences of sentence fragments are interrupted by > bursts of conventional syntax. The page is manipulated as a visual > space to the extent most word processors allow, with varied > patterns of indentation and spacing. Descriptions reflect distraction > and fragmentation, and are often accompanied by philosophical > inquiries into the nature of perception. The poems explore (or > ransack) personal and historical archives and document these > explorations through cut-and-paste procedures. And throughout > this accumulation and disjuncture, they dutifully rehearse the > postmodern axiom that the natural, the personal, and the social are > linguistically constructed." > From trbell at comcast.net Wed Jul 24 01:26:21 2002 From: trbell at comcast.net (trbell at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 00:26:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] soft avant-garde References: <74.203317c0.2a6f583d@aol.com> Message-ID: <00fa01c232d2$a5e0f6a0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com> following hard on the wheels of Langpo and visual poetry? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 8:09 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] soft avant-garde > > > A review in The Boston Review of American poets Forrest Gander > > and Cole Swensen raises some interesting questions about the > > premises and proceedings of "lyrical abstraction," arguably the > > dominant academic mode in U.S. poetry today, as easy and > > formulaic as the dominant "scenic" workshop mode of the 70's and > > 80's. The article's first paragraph is below. > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/ > > > > "As contemporary poets turn in increasing numbers to the > > fashionable strategy of combining experimental techniques with > > lyric and narrative modes, many of these recent efforts have taken > > on a familiar look and a familiar set of conventions. (Calvin Bedient, > > writing in these pages, recently dubbed it the "soft avant-garde.") > > One image leads to another in associative or nonsequiturial > > cascades. Sequences of sentence fragments are interrupted by > > bursts of conventional syntax. The page is manipulated as a visual > > space to the extent most word processors allow, with varied > > patterns of indentation and spacing. Descriptions reflect distraction > > and fragmentation, and are often accompanied by philosophical > > inquiries into the nature of perception. The poems explore (or > > ransack) personal and historical archives and document these > > explorations through cut-and-paste procedures. And throughout > > this accumulation and disjuncture, they dutifully rehearse the > > postmodern axiom that the natural, the personal, and the social are > > linguistically constructed." > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 23 21:36:34 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:36:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] well put Message-ID: <59.1ebb9f58.2a6f5ea2@aol.com> Many poems in English are great because of only a line or phrase or a few lines. Richard Eberhart, "Will & Psyche in Poetry" From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 23 21:54:19 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:54:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fulcrum: an annual of poetry and aesthetics Message-ID: <15e.111c4048.2a6f62cb@aol.com> Philip Nikolayev wrote: > Fulcrum: an annual of poetry and aesthetics (ISSN > 1534-7877) is an international literary and > philosophical journal published by Fulcrum Annual. > > Editors: Philip Nikolayev, Katia Kapovich > > Editorial address: Fulcrum, 334 Harvard Street, > Suite D-2, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. Phone > 617-864-7874. E-mail editor at fulcrumpoetry.com > (queries only). > > The first issue???s central theme is ???A Map of > English-language Poetry.??? It contains poems and > essays by leading poets and critics representing > twelve different parts of the English-speaking > world. Twelve out of the issue's 16 essays discuss > the current poetic situations in those regions. > Issue One is 256 pages, 6x9, elegantly produced, > perfectbound with a glossy cover and exquisite > black-and-white cover and internal art, printed on > 50# White Offset paper. > > Contributors: by Douglas Barbour (Canada), Ken > Bolton (Australia), Pam Brown (Australia), Branston > Clark (Belize, USA), Fred D'Aguiar (Guyana, England, > USA), Allen Fisher (England), Randolph Healy > (Ireland), Brian Henry (USA), W. N. Herbert > (Scotland), Peter Horn (South Africa), Robert Kelly > (USA), David Kennedy (England), John Kinsella > (Australia), August Kleinzahler (USA), Alan Loney > (New Zealand), Paul Muldoon (Northern Ireland), > Gregory O'Brien (New Zealand), Marjorie Perloff > (USA), Sheenagh Pugh (Wales), Menka Shivdasani > (India), Matvey Yankelevich (USA), Angeline Yap > (Singapore), Harriet Zinnes (USA). > > Subscription rates in the U.S. are $12 per > issue/year for individuals, $15 for institutions. > Foreign subscriptions are $17 and $20 respectively. > $5 discount for a three-year subscription. A check, > money order or bank draft drawn in U.S. dollars and > payable to Fulcrum Annual should be sent to Fulcrum, > 334 Harvard Street, Suite D-2, Cambridge, MA 02139, > USA. Booksellers please use the contact info below > to find out about our house discount. > > Fulcrum welcomes submissions of poetry and essays on > poetry, poets, poetic form, the philosophy of > poetry, poetics, aesthetics and related subjects (no > reviews). Read Fulcrum before submitting work. > Unsolicited submissions are read June through August > ONLY and must be accompanied by a return envelope > with sufficient postage or IRCs if a response is > desired. > From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 23 22:06:19 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 22:06:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Article on Adrienne Rich from The Guardian Message-ID: Subject: Article on Adrienne Rich from The Guardian (UK) Her early verse was praised by Auden but she stopped writing when she married. After devastating personal tragedy she found her voice again. Now a lesbian feminist, she is one of America's most powerful - and political - writers. John O'Mahoney reports John O'Mahoney Guardian Saturday June 15, 2002 In a cramped studio in Shepherd's Bush, Adrienne Rich is recording some of her work for the new Poetry Archive, a project that aims to make recordings of major poets available via the internet. Behind the sound-proof glass that separates the inner chamber from the banks of dials and diodes, she looks small and frail. Her voice couldn't be more of a contrast: still tinged with the southern drawl of her native Baltimore, the cadences are sharp and resonant as they project her imagery and symbolism. Unlike many poets, who are often not skilled orators, she reads dazzlingly, excavating the depths and finding intricate threads of meaning running through each image. From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed Jul 24 00:35:27 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 21:35:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] soft avant-garde References: <74.203317c0.2a6f583d@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D3E2E8F.52D59BE5@earthlink.net> James---- I'm confused I tried this little web site you mentioned and there's no article ABOUT gump (i mean gander) and Swensen--- there's an article BY Swensen on those FENCE girls' books---- Who wrote mthis article you're talking about????? Chris JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > A review in The Boston Review of American poets Forrest Gander > > and Cole Swensen raises some interesting questions about the > > premises and proceedings of "lyrical abstraction," arguably the > > dominant academic mode in U.S. poetry today, as easy and > > formulaic as the dominant "scenic" workshop mode of the 70's and > > 80's. The article's first paragraph is below. > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/ > > > > "As contemporary poets turn in increasing numbers to the > > fashionable strategy of combining experimental techniques with > > lyric and narrative modes, many of these recent efforts have taken > > on a familiar look and a familiar set of conventions. (Calvin Bedient, > > writing in these pages, recently dubbed it the "soft avant-garde.") > > One image leads to another in associative or nonsequiturial > > cascades. Sequences of sentence fragments are interrupted by > > bursts of conventional syntax. The page is manipulated as a visual > > space to the extent most word processors allow, with varied > > patterns of indentation and spacing. Descriptions reflect distraction > > and fragmentation, and are often accompanied by philosophical > > inquiries into the nature of perception. The poems explore (or > > ransack) personal and historical archives and document these > > explorations through cut-and-paste procedures. And throughout > > this accumulation and disjuncture, they dutifully rehearse the > > postmodern axiom that the natural, the personal, and the social are > > linguistically constructed." > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jul 24 08:56:12 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 08:56:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] soft avant-garde Message-ID: <104.18fd9437.2a6ffdec@aol.com> In a message dated 7/24/02 12:29:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > Who wrote mthis article you're talking about????? > Chris, I don't mind lying but I hate inaccuracy, as Samuel Butler once remarked...here I'm guilty of plucking that bit off another list as an announcement, and it may be wholly inaccurate. Perhaps someone else has firsthand knowledge of the existence and whereabouts of that review? Sorry for the wild goose chase. Finnegan From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Jul 24 09:04:14 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 09:04:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] soft avant-garde In-Reply-To: <104.18fd9437.2a6ffdec@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020724090244.00ac2970@postoffice.brown.edu> It's all there, Finnegan, no need to apologize. Chris, just go to the contents page on the latest Boston Review. Scroll down to Reviews - Poetry. Gould At 08:56 AM 7/24/02 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 7/24/02 12:29:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > > > Who wrote mthis article you're talking about????? > > >Chris, >I don't mind lying but I hate inaccuracy, >as Samuel Butler once remarked...here I'm guilty >of plucking that bit off another list as an >announcement, and it may be wholly inaccurate. >Perhaps someone else has firsthand knowledge >of the existence and whereabouts of that review? >Sorry for the wild goose chase. >Finnegan >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Jul 24 10:11:01 2002 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:11:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Worst Fears Confirmed" Message-ID: Worst Fears Confirmed Universe slowing at increasingly rapid rate of inflation beyond current expectations great or ingrate guns and/or butter decisions get harder and the harder they fall the harder they fall randomly as though market had no bottom Global warming at new highs as ice shelves melt down on Chernobyl scale heights yet unreached by modern man (using Oldspeak here, so, women, include yourselves in in whatever disasters seem looming in offing pigs with hoof and/in mouth disease and dread World-wide web-footed ducks beneath contempt of court- ing catastrophes and trophy-case wives of nuclear winter as hinterlands vanish into primordial souped up Chevy with gas leak large enough to engulf galaxies Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Wed Jul 24 10:51:41 2002 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 10:51:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Huang on Perloff "Manifesto" Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020724101952.00ac0320@postoffice.brown.edu> The Yunte Huang review (in the same issue of Boston Review - http://bostonreview.mit.edu) of Marjorie Perloff's new book 21st Century Modernism is pretty thorough & interesting. It looks like, according to Perloff, the early Modernists were radical, utopian, anti-elitist about art, materialist about language, and "anti-psychological". Her New Modernists (Bernstein, Howe, Hejinian, McCaffery) heroically take up where the old Modernists & Russian Futurists left off, after the wars & reactionary movements of the 20th century. The familiar dichotomy is set up between experimental dislocation & alienation versus bland, conventional mainstream poetics. Early Modernism will always radiate an aura of springtime, utopian excitement. The "found objects" of sudden constructivism. From the street to the microcosmos. But from the review anyway (and I will want to take a look at her book) it seems like Perloff must base her argument on extreme selectivity, both with regard to the poets involved and their thematic ambitions. Alienation only go so far, once you're off the street & into the sphere of rhetoric (Perloff's book is part of a series called "Blackwell Manifestos", from an established academic press). The ambition of epic, for example, takes up the problem of speaking to vast nations about how to sustain life & dwell in the earth for the long term. From this perspective the rootless enthusiasm of "radical utopian art" can appear trivial. The "bourgeois" tendencies of Joyce or Crane, for example, motivated them to reshape, rather than scorn & reject, traditional genres & modes of discourse. Perloff's argument, it seems, is reductive in this sense: it effaces the presence of past poetries on the poetics of the present, in order to foreground and exaggerate a dichotomy between "mainstream convention" and heroic avant-garde. "New Formalism" tried a similar tendentious gambit, a few years ago, from a different direction. Henry From roger at chass.utoronto.ca Wed Jul 24 14:55:54 2002 From: roger at chass.utoronto.ca (Roger Greenwald) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:55:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] review in Boston Review (re Gander) Message-ID: <3.0.3.16.20020724145554.2cd7d8b6@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> It does help to find the piece before quoting. Here is the _second_ pargagraph of the review by Barbara Fischer of TORN AWAKE (Gander ) and SUCH RICH HOUR (Swensen): Forrest Gander and Cole Swensen are among the few contemporary poets who are using these strategies well, adapting them skillfully to their own purposes and questioning the assumptions behind them. Both have earned reputations for addressing the concerns of "post-Language" and "post-confessional" poetry, and both alternate between indeterminacy and lyrical intensity. Their projects entail efforts to map, on multiple axes, the ways life or history or selfhood or human contact takes place, and these efforts allow the onrush of data and dailiness to coexist with the event, the climax, the moment of heightened awareness. While many of their contemporaries are giving us pages and pages of what amounts to little more than note-taking, Gander and Swensen are doing the difficult work of sifting through the scribble. The closing sentence of the section on TORN AWAKE: Gander responds to serious theoretical worries, but don't read him for that. Read him because he marshals a sinewy and strenuous language for familial, sensory, and erotic experience, and because he gives us images that work: we see a "lour of cumulus," hear the "dry / Plash of cars." The URL is: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR27.3/fischer.html Having recently read TORN AWAKE, I recommend it highly. Roger Greenwald From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed Jul 24 16:58:20 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 13:58:20 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] soft avant-garde References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020724090244.00ac2970@postoffice.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3D3F14EC.B4C4B931@earthlink.net> No, HEnry Gould---- Either I am a total fool or I just don't get it---- I looked at that content page again---- again---it's the same thing that I said earlier..... WHO wrote this review? WHAT is it? give more INFO here, please.... thanks (though maybe I shouldn't) in advance.... Chris Henry Gould wrote: > It's all there, Finnegan, no need to apologize. Chris, just go to the > contents page on the latest Boston Review. Scroll down to Reviews - Poetry. > > Gould > > At 08:56 AM 7/24/02 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 7/24/02 12:29:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > >cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > > > > > Who wrote mthis article you're talking about????? > > > > >Chris, > >I don't mind lying but I hate inaccuracy, > >as Samuel Butler once remarked...here I'm guilty > >of plucking that bit off another list as an > >announcement, and it may be wholly inaccurate. > >Perhaps someone else has firsthand knowledge > >of the existence and whereabouts of that review? > >Sorry for the wild goose chase. > >Finnegan > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jul 24 17:03:25 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:03:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] soft avant-garde References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020724090244.00ac2970@postoffice.brown.edu> <3D3F14EC.B4C4B931@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001101c23355$8de00220$11d5fea9@j1c1k6> There's a second table of contents page--click at the word, "contents," at the bottom of the first list of contents. I think. Also, be aware that the review is of two books, one by Bernstein, the other the one by Perloff, but the latter is not mentioned in the table of contents. I had trouble finding it, but did. Didn't think much of the reviewer or the Perloff book. Why this continuing crap about "modernism" and "post-modernism," two null terms if there ever were any. --Bob G. From barr at mail.rochester.edu Wed Jul 24 17:09:58 2002 From: barr at mail.rochester.edu (Brandon Barr) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:09:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Avant2 event @ OSU In-Reply-To: <001101c23355$8de00220$11d5fea9@j1c1k6> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020724090244.00ac2970@postoffice.brown.edu> <3D3F14EC.B4C4B931@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20020724170638.00b849e8@mail.rochester.edu> I noticed several list members will be presenting at this symposium...It'll be nice to place faces with names. If anyone is around Columbus, the weekend looks to be exciting! Brandon ------ The full schedule for AN AMERICAN AVANT GARDE: SECOND WAVE SYMPOSIUM Thursday July 25th promptly at 8:30?11:00 pm Casablanca's The corner of Mound & High, Downtown Columbus, Ohio --easy to reach on the bus-- --plenty o' parking-- in a pleasant sub-terrainian setting A Pavement Saw Reading pre-Second Wave opener & release party for Daniel Zimmerman received Pavement Saw's editor's choice award in 2000 for his first book-length collection, Post-Avant, which has a forward by Bob Creeley. A chapbook of his anagrammatical poems, Isotopes, recently appeared from London (Frame Publications, 2001) and another chapbook Blue Horitals (Oasis, 1997) was co-written with Jack Clarke. He teaches English at Middlesex County College in Edison, NJ. Aralee Strange, a poet and playwright, who wrote, produced and edited, ETTA STONE: A Film for Radio, which was broadcast nationally on NPR. Her first full length film as a director THIS TRAIN, which stars Soupy Sales, was completed in late August. She is now editing the film, which is expected to be completed by the end of this year. Strange has been awarded grants and fellowships from a number of arts organizations and foundations, including the MacDowell Colony, the Ohio Arts Council, and the Kentucky Foundation for Women. Sheila E. Murphy?s selected poems Falling in Love Falling in Love with you Syntax was published in 1997. More recent collections include The Indelible Occasion (Potes & Poets Press); Familiar Hinges (Wild Honey Press, Ireland); Immersion Tones (Luna Bisonte Prods). Recently she has been a featured reader at the Arvon Foundation at Totleigh-Barton, Devon, UK, and at the annual Brisbane Writers Festival in Queensland, Australia. Jesse Glass from Japan who has appeared in Hambone, Angel Exhaust. and Shearsman, and on the web at Ubu.com, 3.A.M. and lots of other places. His most recent book is Trimorphic Potennoia (Elephantine Press, Holland). Expect a bevy of other unannounced readers from throughout the US MC: David Baratier Editor of Pavement Saw Press $5 at the door ?or $9 to include a copy of the most recent journal --------- SCHEDULE for Friday & Saturday July 26-27, 2002 for AN AMERICAN AVANT GARDE: SECOND WAVE SYMPOSIUM All sessions to be in the Main Library at The Ohio State University, except for Marvin Sackner's Keynote Address. Friday July 26 3:30 PM - short readings by conference presenters (room 122) 4:30 PM - Reception in the Exhibit Hall 6:00 PM - Keynote Address by Marvin Sackner, "Survey of the Archive" (with powerpoint). In the Grand Lounge of the OSU Faculty Club. Saturday July 27 ROOM 122 8:00 - Registration, Welcome and Introductions. 9:00 - mIEKAL aND, Poetry Presentation (computer-CD-ROM) 9:30 - Ficus strangulensis, Visual Poetry Presentation (overhead proj.) 10:00 - Igor Satanovsky, The Cutting Edge: Re-Imaging the Canon (slide proj.) 10:30 - Carlos Luis, Reading 11:00 - Jesse Glass, Reading (CD boombox) 11:30 - Scott Helmes, Visual Specere: 1972-2002 (2 slide proj.) 12:00 - LUNCH 1:00 - John Byrum & Arleen Hartman, Generator & Another Incomplete Understanding (2 slide proj. & boombox) 1:30 - Michael Peters, Wholesale Form: An Attack on the Corporate Form with Text and Sound (powerpoint & boombox) 2:00 - K. S. Ernst, Is Visual the Opposite of Verbal? (slide proj.) 2:30 - Thomas L. Taylor, Reading and Visuals (2 slide proj. & boombox) 3:00 - Michael Magazinnik, Soundvisual Poetry in Performance (slide proj.) 3:30 - Bob Grumman, Doing Long Division in Color (overhead proj.) 4:00 - Panel Discussion on Collaboration, Sheila E. Murphy, Moderator ROOM 327 - RARE BOOKS & MANUSCRIPTS LIBRARY 9:00 - Robert H. Jackson, William S. Burroughs' Influence on Recent Writing 9:30 - William J. Austin, Against Formalism: Experiments with Internality 10:00 - Brandon Barr, Webbed Minimalism 10:30 - Jennifer Bosveld, Poetry as Extreme Sport: Difficulties on the Road to Invention 11:00 - Irving Weiss, Malcolm de Chazal's Sens-Plastique 11:30 - Michael Basinski, Aural Concrete 12:00 - LUNCH 1:00 - Geoffrey Gatza, Tantalum: The Congo War Interpreted Through Consumer Acuity 1:30 - David Baratier, The Letter as Viral Instrument in the Post-Consumer Age 2:00 - Peter Ganick, Reading 2:30 - Sheila E. Murphy, Reading 3:00 - John M. Bennett, Reading 3:30 - Joel Lipman, Reading ROOM 124 Continual showings: Lewis LaCook, Flash presentation (computer) Catherine Pancake, The Suit (story by Al Ackerman) (VHS) Steve Steele, Kant's Gnawser (story by Al Ackerman) (VHS) Ivan Arguelles, Reading (VHS) Nico Vassilakis, 16 walls (computer) Jake Berry, Silence and the Hammer (VHS) Jim Leftwich, Mark, Stimulus, Noise (VHS) Richard Kostelanetz, A Life In/Of Words (computer) >------------- On Sunday, @ 349 E Morrill Ave in the heart of Columbus' south end those who are still in town & have an interest in socializing & reading we are having shindig at our house-- our plan: Noon -- Head Chef & Associate Editor, Stephen Mainard, leads the rest of the Pavement Saw interns into the uncharted area of outdoor barbeque. 1:00 to 2:30 pm -- Out of town readers including Ultimate Pavement Saw & previous issue contributors mIEKAL aND is a longtime DIY cultural anarchist & the creator of an infoplex worth of visual-verbal lit, audio-art, performance ritual & hypermedia for the Macintosh, all distributed by Xexoxial Editions. His hypermedia works reside at JOGLARS Crossmedia Broadcast (http://cla.umn.edu/joglars). Recent work has focused on activating online collaborative workspaces where writers & media artists can create collective digital works in a real time environment. Since 1991, he has made his home at Dreamtime Village (http://www.dreamtimevillage.org), a hypermedia / permaculture village project, located in the driftless bioregion of southwestern Wisconsin. aND devotes much time to creating edible wilderness indoors & out, growing such things as figs, citrus, cherries, grapes & chestnuts. 1998 marked the creation of THE DRIFTLESS GROTTO OF WEST LIMA, a permanent public grotto/park/installation which when finished will feature a bird-operated time machine in a 25 ft blue glass tower. 2:30- 3pm Richard Kostelanetz: Seductions Individual entries on RICHARD KOSTELANETZ appear in Contemporary Poets, Contemporary Novelists, Postmodern Fiction, Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians, A Reader's Guide to Twentieth-Century Writers, the Merriam-Webster Encyclopedia of Literature, Webster's Dictionary of American Authors, The HarperCollins Reader's Encyclopedia of American Literature, and the Encyclopedia Britannica, among other distinguished directories. Living in New York, where he was born, he still needs $1.50 (US) to take a subway. 3 pm Closing Ceremony, led by John M. Bennett (mental and physical integrity permitting) Sorry, the fireworks were cancelled due to when people's flights were leaving. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed Jul 24 17:17:46 2002 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:17:46 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] review in Boston Review (re Gander) References: <3.0.3.16.20020724145554.2cd7d8b6@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <3D3F1979.4930AA18@earthlink.net> thanks for this----- chris Roger Greenwald wrote: > It does help to find the piece before quoting. > > Here is the _second_ pargagraph of the review by Barbara Fischer > of TORN AWAKE (Gander ) and SUCH RICH HOUR (Swensen): > > Forrest Gander and Cole Swensen are among the few contemporary poets who > are using these > strategies well, adapting them skillfully to their own purposes and > questioning the assumptions > behind them. Both have earned reputations for addressing the concerns of > "post-Language" and > "post-confessional" poetry, and both alternate between indeterminacy and > lyrical intensity. Their > projects entail efforts to map, on multiple axes, the ways life or history > or selfhood or human > contact takes place, and these efforts allow the onrush of data and > dailiness to coexist with the > event, the climax, the moment of heightened awareness. While many of their > contemporaries are > giving us pages and pages of what amounts to little more than note-taking, > Gander and Swensen > are doing the difficult work of sifting through the scribble. > > The closing sentence of the section on TORN AWAKE: > > Gander responds to serious theoretical worries, but > don't read him for that. Read him because he marshals a sinewy and > strenuous language for > familial, sensory, and erotic experience, and because he gives us images > that work: we see a "lour > of cumulus," hear the "dry / Plash of cars." > > The URL is: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR27.3/fischer.html > > Having recently read TORN AWAKE, I recommend it highly. > > Roger Greenwald > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 24 23:14:44 2002 From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Levine on Poetry "Schools" Message-ID: <20020725031444.80037.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Philip Levine's comments on schools and movements are interesting, if not overly simplified. I pulled this from an interview at http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/poetry/levine.htm < From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jul 25 05:53:26 2002 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 05:53:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Philip Levine on Poetry "Schools" References: <20020725031444.80037.qmail@web13008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001c01c233c1$1ffeeb60$ee68fea9@j1c1k6> Philip Levine's comments on schools and movements are interesting, if not overly simplified. I pulled this from an interview at http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/poetry/levine.htm < From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jul 25 18:34:02 2002 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 17:34:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] soft avant-garde In-Reply-To: <74.203317c0.2a6f583d@aol.com> Message-ID: on 7/23/02 8:09 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > >> A review in The Boston Review of American poets Forrest Gander >> and Cole Swensen raises some interesting questions about the >> premises and proceedings of "lyrical abstraction," arguably the >> dominant academic mode in U.S. poetry today, as easy and >> formulaic as the dominant "scenic" workshop mode of the 70's and >> 80's. The article's first paragraph is below. >> http://bostonreview.mit.edu/ >> >> "As contemporary poets turn in increasing numbers to the >> fashionable strategy of combining experimental techniques with >> lyric and narrative modes, many of these recent efforts have taken >> on a familiar look and a familiar set of conventions. (Calvin Bedient, >> writing in these pages, recently dubbed it the "soft avant-garde.") >> One image leads to another in associative or nonsequiturial >> cascades. Sequences of sentence fragments are interrupted by >> bursts of conventional syntax. The page is manipulated as a visual >> space to the extent most word processors allow, with varied >> patterns of indentation and spacing. Descriptions reflect distraction >> and fragmentation, and are often accompanied by philosophical >> inquiries into the nature of perception. The poems explore (or >> ransack) personal and historical archives and document these >> explorations through cut-and-paste procedures. And throughout >> this accumulation and disjuncture, they dutifully rehearse the >> postmodern axiom that the natural, the personal, and the social are >> linguistically constructed." >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > The first paragraph sounds right on. I'll read the rest later. Paul Lake From Cadaly at aol.com Thu Jul 25 19:09:27 2002 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 19:09:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] soft avant-garde Message-ID: <71.22e905eb.2a71df27@aol.com> another review of Such Rich Hour (by me), together with Oh, which as a project begins to answer the conclusion of the Boston Review review http://www.smallbytes.net/~bobkat/swensen.html >Both Gander and Swensen thus present us with a paradox: the experience of reading fragmented, layered, refracted, and distracted poems can become numbing; moments of clarity then inject doses of pathos; but the ease and satisfaction we feel when we come upon these moments counteracts their ability to unnerve. What is at stake in this paradox of stylistic density and emotional resonance, it seems to me, is the efficacy and value of disjunction as a foundation for contemporary poetic practice. I will be looking to the future work of both these poets for innovative ways out of it.< Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Thu Jul 25 23:20:07 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 20:20:07 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] review in Boston Review (re Gander) References: <3.0.3.16.20020724145554.2cd7d8b6@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <3D40BFE6.F278A5BD@earthlink.net> That first paragraph in Barbara Fischer's review poisoned everything I read today. I couldn't help but see the characteristics she describes in the poems I came across. There was, for example, this poem by Eric Pankey on today's Poetry Daily: Point of Departure There along the continuum between memory and remembrance Is a point where I almost disappear, Not a vanishing point pierced through by each line But like the spot in the heat-thrummed shade of the thicket, Tenuous, ephemeral, uncharted, yet open Into which the fox slips and is gone. A wind lifts, shuffles, and repairs the tear. One more drink and I'll call it quits. One more drink and we'll see. There, on either side of a bridge of magpies, The evening and morning stars fixed within a window frame, The torn paper of a wasp's nest stitched with spit, The air warped above the mineral spirits, the house on fire. Take it back, my brother would demand, his hands At my throat. Take it back. A spiral of swifts lifts from the chimney. One more drink and I'll call it quits. One more drink and we'll see. - Eric Pankey The Reading According to Barbara Fischer's Observations: As I drink at the end of the day, no longer able to write, I squint and imagine something out there in the privacy screen, something feral, a threat to my deck and open notebook, but it becomes an entry carried tomorrow into my office, into the classroom, heavily shut and private, a tight bud of wilderness. The space/time continuum heals itself. I promise to quit squinting. I promise not to imagine things. Now, inside, but still staring out, dusk or dawn a freeway for crows or nightingales, leaves in the gutter glued to themselves by themselves, the world impressionistic with endless rain, the house flooding. Get the boat, my mother orders, her hand poised behind my buttocks. A yellow flash of canary from the cage. I promise to quit squinting. I promise not to imagine things. That first paragraph in the Fischer review: "As contemporary poets turn in increasing numbers to the fashionable strategy of combining experimental techniques with lyric and narrative modes, many of these recent efforts have taken on a familiar look and a familiar set of conventions. (Calvin Bedient, writing in these pages, recently dubbed it the "soft avant-garde.") One image leads to another in associative or nonsequiturial cascades. Sequences of sentence fragments are interrupted by bursts of conventional syntax. The page is manipulated as a visual space to the extent most word processors allow, with varied patterns of indentation and spacing. Descriptions reflect distraction and fragmentation, and are often accompanied by philosophical inquiries into the nature of perception. The poems explore (or ransack) personal and historical archives and document these explorations through cut-and-paste procedures. Andthroughout this accumulation and disjuncture, they dutifully rehearse the postmodern axiom that the natural, the personal, and the social are linguistically constructed." http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR27.3/fischer.html From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Jul 26 07:15:28 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 07:15:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Top Ten Baseball Euphemisms for Sex In-Reply-To: <71.22e905eb.2a71df27@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D40F710.16995.144547@localhost> From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Fri Jul 26 08:58:47 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 20:58:47 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] review in Boston Review (re Gander) References: <3.0.3.16.20020724145554.2cd7d8b6@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> <3D40BFE6.F278A5BD@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004501c234a4$30072250$75864cca@JROSS2> I say, "Let's hunt her down and beat the bitch senseless ... or perhaps, knock some sense into her." I mean, what the ...? She has all the jargon, obviously has had some sort of education, but she must be following the path of the deliberately obtuse ... On the other hand, she may be genuinely stupid. Whichever, don't waste your or anyone else's time with her spews. I know her views are enough to make me do so ... Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] review in Boston Review (re Gander) > That first paragraph in Barbara Fischer's review poisoned everything I > read today. I couldn't help but see the characteristics she describes > in the poems I came across. There was, for example, this poem by Eric > Pankey on today's Poetry Daily: > > > Point of Departure > > > There along the continuum between memory and remembrance > Is a point where I almost disappear, > Not a vanishing point pierced through by each line > But like the spot in the heat-thrummed shade of the thicket, > Tenuous, ephemeral, uncharted, yet open > Into which the fox slips and is gone. > > A wind lifts, shuffles, and repairs the tear. > One more drink and I'll call it quits. > One more drink and we'll see. > > There, on either side of a bridge of magpies, > The evening and morning stars fixed within a window frame, > The torn paper of a wasp's nest stitched with spit, > The air warped above the mineral spirits, the house on fire. > Take it back, my brother would demand, his hands > At my throat. Take it back. > > A spiral of swifts lifts from the chimney. > One more drink and I'll call it quits. > One more drink and we'll see. > > - Eric Pankey > > The Reading According to Barbara Fischer's Observations: > > As I drink at the end of the day, no longer able to write, > I squint and imagine something out there > in the privacy screen, something feral, a threat > to my deck and open notebook, but it becomes an entry > carried tomorrow into my office, into the classroom, heavily > shut and private, a tight bud of wilderness. > > The space/time continuum heals itself. > I promise to quit squinting. > I promise not to imagine things. > > Now, inside, but still staring out, > dusk or dawn a freeway for crows or nightingales, > leaves in the gutter glued to themselves by themselves, > the world impressionistic with endless rain, the house flooding. > Get the boat, my mother orders, her hand > poised behind my buttocks. > > A yellow flash of canary from the cage. > I promise to quit squinting. > I promise not to imagine things. > > > > That first paragraph in the Fischer review: > "As contemporary poets turn in increasing numbers to the fashionable > strategy of combining experimental techniques with lyric and narrative > modes, many of these recent efforts have taken on a familiar look and a > familiar set of conventions. (Calvin Bedient, writing in these pages, > recently dubbed it the "soft avant-garde.") One image leads to another > in associative or nonsequiturial cascades. Sequences of sentence > fragments are interrupted by bursts of conventional syntax. The page is > manipulated as a visual space to the extent most word processors allow, > with varied patterns of indentation and spacing. Descriptions reflect > distraction and fragmentation, and are often accompanied by > philosophical inquiries into the nature of perception. The poems explore > (or ransack) personal and historical archives and document these > explorations through cut-and-paste procedures. Andthroughout this > accumulation and disjuncture, they dutifully rehearse the postmodern > axiom that the natural, the personal, and the social are linguistically constructed." > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR27.3/fischer.html > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Fri Jul 26 09:04:39 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:04:39 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Top Ten Baseball Euphemisms for Sex References: <3D40F710.16995.144547@localhost> Message-ID: <007101c234a5$01e66600$75864cca@JROSS2> I could have gone a decade without this ... or anything else from that wanker, Letterman. I thought this list was supposed to be matters concerning poetry ? Wake up and smell the roses ... or whatever ... Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 7:15 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Top Ten Baseball Euphemisms for Sex > From the Letterman Top 10 archive...forgive me if you saw it last > fall, but I just ran across it and this is one of the good ones. > M > > > Top Ten Baseball Euphemisms For Sex > David Letterman > > 10. Working the rosin bag > 9. Comebacker > 8. Charging the mound > 7. Riding the pine > 6. Jerking one into the seats > 5. Coming from behind > 4. Doubleheader > 3. Going deep in the hole > 2. The big unit > 1. Visiting Busch Stadium > > Marcus Bales > > marcus at designerglass.com > http://www.designerglass.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From marcus at designerglass.com Fri Jul 26 10:36:06 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 10:36:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grad Student Deconstructs Menu (The Onion) In-Reply-To: <3D40BFE6.F278A5BD@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3D412616.9903.CBFB38@localhost> http://www.theonion.com/onion3826/grad_student.html Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From MillB at aol.com Fri Jul 26 14:46:49 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 14:46:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Help with an address Message-ID: Greetings: Would anyone have a current address for Sharon Doubiago? She sent me a postcard, but I could only make out the city: Gualala CA. I'd appreciate any help. Many thanks, Millicent From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Jul 26 15:20:46 2002 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] One nation,"under God"?/Please Vote! Message-ID: <20020726192046.3A1AA394D@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From roger at chass.utoronto.ca Sat Jul 27 15:50:57 2002 From: roger at chass.utoronto.ca (Roger Greenwald) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 15:50:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Close reading (USA Today poll) Message-ID: <3.0.3.16.20020727155057.2b97d57e@pop.chass.utoronto.ca> In response to: Message: 2 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 12:20:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert R.Cobb" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] One nation,"under God"?/Please Vote! Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu [New-Poetry], USA Today is taking a vote today! Should the words, "under God" remain a part of the Pledge Allegiance? Please, take time to go and vote: So far the "Nays" are about 75%. Go to: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/06/27/pledge-hold.htm Bob ( raising a bit of a ruckus!) ________ The question is not " Should the words, 'under God' remain a part of the Pledge Allegiance? " The question as put by USA Today is " Should the words, 'under God' BE REMOVED from the Pledge Allegiance? " So the NAYS at 75% favor RETAINING the words (what did you expect?!). So you weren't raising a ruckus, you were making a mess. Perhaps a good illustration of the reliability of polls! Roger G. From trbell at comcast.net Sun Jul 28 21:28:28 2002 From: trbell at comcast.net (trbell at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 20:28:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] excuse cross posting Message-ID: <001c01c2369f$40de36c0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com> please, especially as there is refernce here to spamming! but, there has been discussion recently on this on another list about the current literary fashion of 'experimentation' as noted in the Boston Review among other places. The question was raised about what third world experimental poets might say. Taking the liberty of misunderstandings and mistranslations, I asked Clemente Padin what he thought. He said that he had a lot to say although he only actually said a couple of things to me directly. They included 'I don't understand your discussions [of] insubstantial and frivolous topics when in the world terrible things are occuring.' He also sent me a very nice animated piece with a David and Goliath perspective and I'd like to ask him to submit it to an appropriate place like the Boston Review for consideration. If anyone would like to send addresses to me I'll pass them along he also said that he has constructed 17 pieces of anti-spam out of the spam he has received recently if this is of interest. I tried some anti-spam things awhile back until I was overwhelmed. tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From simon at ipfw.edu Sun Jul 28 19:08:47 2002 From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 18:08:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration Message-ID: This is probably very old news to everyone, but nonetheless ... There's fetching exhibit at the Madison (WI) Art Center, the result of an 8 yr collaboration between painter Jane Hammond and J Ashbery, in which Hammond, having established a fixed lexicon of 276 images, reiterates and reorders them over a series of 60+ canvases to keep making new meanings. She had asked Ashbery to write titles for as yet unpainted paintings, and he did, providing 44 titles for over 60 works. The contextualizing intro talks about the inherent relation between language and image! If you're in Madison (David?), see the show. It's free! beth From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Jul 28 19:35:28 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:35:28 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration References: Message-ID: <3D447FBF.FCB66947@earthlink.net> Any way to see/read without going to Madison? - Jim Beth Simon wrote: > > This is probably very old news to everyone, but nonetheless ... > > There's fetching exhibit at the Madison (WI) Art Center, the result of > an 8 yr collaboration between painter Jane Hammond and J Ashbery, in > which Hammond, having established a fixed lexicon of 276 images, > reiterates and reorders them over a series of 60+ canvases to keep > making new meanings. She had asked Ashbery to write titles for as yet > unpainted paintings, and he did, providing 44 titles for over 60 works. > > The contextualizing intro talks about the inherent relation between > language and image! > > If you're in Madison (David?), see the show. It's free! > > beth > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Sun Jul 28 19:55:47 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:55:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] excuse cross posting References: <001c01c2369f$40de36c0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com> Message-ID: <3D448482.82CBD3C0@earthlink.net> "Experimentation" is not a literary "fashion," is it? Isn't it status quo? Isn't every poem an experiment? Or am I missing something? - Jim-the-naif p.s. - but I understand Padin's amazement > trbell at comcast.net wrote: > > please, especially as there is refernce here to spamming! > > but, there has been discussion recently on this on another list about > the current literary fashion of 'experimentation' as noted in the > Boston Review among other places. The question was raised about what > third world experimental poets might say. Taking the liberty of > misunderstandings and mistranslations, I asked Clemente Padin what he > thought. > > He said that he had a lot to say although he only actually said a > couple of things to me directly. They included 'I don't understand > your discussions [of] insubstantial and frivolous topics when in the > world terrible things are occuring.' He also sent me a very nice > animated piece with a David and Goliath perspective and I'd like to > ask him to submit it to an appropriate place like the Boston Review > for consideration. If anyone would like to send addresses to me I'll > pass them along > > he also said that he has constructed 17 pieces of anti-spam out of the > spam he has received recently if this is of interest. I tried some > anti-spam things awhile back until I was overwhelmed. > > tom bell > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: > Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html > Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at > http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm > Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ > Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm > > From simon at ipfw.edu Sun Jul 28 19:54:22 2002 From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 18:54:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration Message-ID: Okay, I'm looking at the hand-size brochure. The collaboration was 1993-2001. Quite contemporary! Looks as though the show was mounted by the Cleveland Center, then went to the Contemporary Museum in Honolulu, is now in MadCity until September 1, and will be at the Blaffer Gallery of the Art Museum of the University of Houston (is that anywhere near you, Jim?) from September 28-Nov 24. You'll probably find out more at the Cleveland Center website www.contemporaryart.org. I know there've been some really productive collaborative projects, but this idea, first the imagistic language then titles, then the paint .... yes! beth >>> jvcervantes at earthlink.net 07/28/02 18:35 PM >>> Any way to see/read without going to Madison? - Jim From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Jul 29 10:40:10 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:40:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration References: Message-ID: <3D4553C9.9DF6404B@earthlink.net> Excellent. Chances are good I will be in Houston during that time frame (family lives there) - I'm in Arizona 90% of the time. The Cleveland Center website yielded nothing in regard to the show's travels. - Jim Beth Simon wrote: > > Okay, I'm looking at the hand-size brochure. > > The collaboration was 1993-2001. Quite contemporary! > > Looks as though the show was mounted by the Cleveland Center, then went > to the Contemporary Museum in Honolulu, is now in MadCity until > September 1, and will be at the Blaffer Gallery of the Art Museum of the > University of Houston (is that anywhere near you, Jim?) from September > 28-Nov 24. > > You'll probably find out more at the Cleveland Center website > www.contemporaryart.org. > > I know there've been some really productive collaborative projects, but > this idea, first the imagistic language then titles, then the paint .... > yes! > > beth > > >>> jvcervantes at earthlink.net 07/28/02 18:35 PM >>> > Any way to see/read without going to Madison? > > - Jim > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jul 29 13:08:12 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 13:08:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Jacket 17 (with free gift poster offer) Message-ID: <81.1f138ed4.2a76d07c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 19:24:01 +1000 From: John Tranter Subject: Announcing Jacket 17 (with free gift poster offer) Announcing Jacket 17 - another Giant Bumper Issue, this time circling around a theme of hoaxes, fakery and a computer that can write an almost infinite number of poems: http://jacketmagazine.com/17/ > Girls on the Run - Michael Leddy: Lives and Art: John Ashbery and Henry Darger (and Ern Malley) > Faking Literature - Patrick Herron: Ken Ruthven's Faking Literature (and Ern Malley) > Ken Ruthven: Faking Literature: The Bibliography - twenty-five pages of rare source materials Ern Malley Feature > Ethel Malley - Letter to Max Harris, 28 October 1943 > David Lehman - The Ern Malley Hoax - Introduction > Max Harris - Introduction [his original Introduction to the Ern Malley poems in Angry Penguins magazine, Autumn 1944] > Ern Malley - The Complete Poems > Max Harris - Two pieces [immediately following the Ern Malley poems in Angry Penguins magazine, Autumn 1944] > John Thompson - The Ern Malley Story: audio - the 1-hour radio documentary in RealAudio, with the voices of all those involved in the hoax, made by the Australian Broadcasting Commission in 1959. You can download the free basic model of the RealAudio plug-in for your browser here: http://www.real.com/ > TRANSCRIPT of John Thompson - The Ern Malley Story: the full transcript of the radio documentary above; first published as an Appendix to Clement Semmler, For the Uncanny Man - Essays, Mainly Literary, 1963. > SPECIAL: Free movie poster! Get your free electronic copy of the poster from smash hit movie The Ern Malley Story... you'll love the HTML version, but you'll go crazy over the special full-color high-definition download at 300 ppi! Only from Jacket magazine! Back to the Future: Press Clippings from 1944: > FACT, 18 (?) June 1944: Ern Malley, the great poet, or the greatest hoax? > FACT, 25 June 1944: Ern Malley, Poet of Debunk: full story from the two authors (with McAuley and Stewart photos) > The Herald, 4 July 1944: 'Nearly Bad Enough to be Genuine' ...with McAuley photo and reader's letter. > The Herald, 4 July 1944 - The Case of The Angry Penguins > Ern Malley's "Doctor of Oxometry" degree (FACT magazine, 1944) > FACT'S London News Bureau, 9 July 1944 - English comment on Ern Malley > Sydney Morning Herald, 15 July 1944 - FEATHERS FLY! > The Bulletin 'Red Page', 19 July 1944 - 'Hoaxed Penguins' Unknown print source, 1944 - [a summary of the hoax] > The (Melbourne) Age, 4 November 1944 (a notice of The Darkening Ecliptic) [... with thanks to Nicholas Pounder for supplying this invaluable archival material.] > Michael Ackland - Damaged Men - '...one day it will be irrefutably proved that James McAuley and Harold Stewart were really figments of the imagination of the real-life Ern Malley and in fact never existed! ' - a 50-page excerpt from the book about the brilliant hoaxers who created Ern Malley. > Michael Heyward - 'Indecent, Immoral, Obscene': a 60-page excerpt, dealing with the obscenity trial and the public crucifixion of Max Harris, from Michael Heyward's book The Ern Malley Affair. > John Kinsella - 'Five Ern Malley poems' > McKenzie Wark - 'Black Swan of Trespass' - a postmodern response to Ern Malley. > See also John Miles - Lost Angry Penguins in Jacket 12: with the deaths of D.B. Kerr and P.G. Pfeiffer as young Royal Australian Air Force airmen during World War II, Australia lost two original and promising poets. They were also among the founders of the Angry Penguin movement. > WITH RARE PHOTOS of Ern Malley as a boy, and his sister Ethel Hans Magnus Enzensberger's 'Poetry Machine': "My magic is perfumed with rage. I giggle, I sing: Fear not our parents glowing in the dark! Downstairs the country is doing fine." A three-page Introduction to this poetry-writing computer is given in English; a twenty-page paper by Enzensberger explaining the theory and operation of the machine is published (in German) in this issue of Jacket: Einladung zu einem Poesie-Automaten. An English translation of this paper is in preparation. > Catherine Daly: Marjorie Allen Seiffert and the 'Spectra' Hoax > Schuldt: 'Homi Bhabha and the Forty Words' Jacket magazine: ISSN 1440-4737 - you can search all Jacket issues using the search engine on the homepage... ... thanks for your support. Enjoy! John Tranter From simon at ipfw.edu Mon Jul 29 13:15:49 2002 From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 12:15:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration Message-ID: i suggested that this hammond - ashbery collaboration was old news to some/most of you. is it? does hammond's work or process of making art figure in ashbery-ness in any way? beth From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Mon Jul 29 18:29:06 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:29:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration References: Message-ID: <3D45C1B0.2CBF52EB@earthlink.net> Poems written "after" or on paintings is old news. Have you ever seen a painting done "after" or on a poem? Hammond's project wasn't exactly that, but it's an interesting enough concept for me to want to see the exhibit. Besides, I'm an Ashbery fan. - Jim Beth Simon wrote: > > i suggested that this hammond - ashbery collaboration was old news to > some/most of you. is it? does hammond's work or process of making art > figure in ashbery-ness in any way? > > beth > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Mon Jul 29 23:04:29 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:04:29 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration References: <3D45C1B0.2CBF52EB@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003501c23775$d4d70d80$52864cca@JROSS2> Yeah, I have seen paintings done after a poem. Of course, they were Australian. Does that count with you? Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration > Poems written "after" or on paintings is old news. Have you ever seen a > painting done "after" or on a poem? Hammond's project wasn't exactly > that, but it's an interesting enough concept for me to want to see the > exhibit. Besides, I'm an Ashbery fan. > > - Jim > > Beth Simon wrote: > > > > i suggested that this hammond - ashbery collaboration was old news to > > some/most of you. is it? does hammond's work or process of making art > > figure in ashbery-ness in any way? > > > > beth > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From soriano+ at pitt.edu Sat Jul 27 14:46:25 2002 From: soriano+ at pitt.edu (David Soriano) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 14:46:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hello Message-ID: <3D42EA81.81175FFD@pitt.edu> Hello to List Members I am a chem. prof. witj U. Pittsburgh- Bradford. I enjoy poetry and write some myself on subjects such as altered states, mystic experiences, science, time, etc. Regards, Dave Soriano From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jul 30 09:24:45 2002 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:24:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Fix Is In Message-ID: <31.2aa89c10.2a77ed9d@aol.com> from the 'Books and Bookmen' column of _Private Eye_ July 26, 2002 POETS CORNERED The small but perfectly formed world of modern British poetry looks even smaller following the announcement of the shortlist for the Forward Prize, Britain's biggest poetry award. This year's judges include two poets published by Picador (Sean O'Brien and Michael Donaghy), who have shortlisted two other Picador poets (Peter Porter and Paul Farley) for the =A310,000 top prize. Last year's judging panel also included two Picador poets--Donaghy (again) and Peter Porter. Last year Porter gave the main prize to Sean O'Brien. What's the betting O'Brien won't now give it back to his mentor, enabling both friends to pocket ten grand? Or will their proteg=E9 Paul Farley be the one to take the loot this time around? Last year the =A35,000 prize for "best first collection" went to another Picador poet, John Stammers (a product of Donaghy's poetry workshops), and the =A31,000 "best single poem" prize was given to Ian Duhig for a poem--you guessed it--from his forthcoming Picador collection. The same poem earlier won Duhig the =A35,000 top prize in the Poetry Society's national poetry competition, judged by a three-man panel including his mate Don Paterson, the foul-mouthed Scottish bard who also happens to be the poetry editor at, er, Picador. This year's five-poet Forward shortlist includes two other chums, David Harsent and John Fuller (winner of the Forward prize in 1996, when one of the judges was again Sean O'Brien). And Sean O'Brien was one of three judges of the 1997 T. S. Eliot prize (worth =A35,000), which was awarded to. . . his own editor, Don Paterson. Duhig, Donaghy, O'Brien, Harsent and Paterson all have the same agent, TriplePa, aka Gerry Wardle--who just happens to be Sean O'Brien's partner. And Donaghy, Duhig, Farley, Fuller, Harsent, Paterson and Porter have all received fulsome write-ups from the _Sunday Times's_ main poetry critic, one Sean O'Brien. Those outside the charmed circle may wonder if there are any poets worth honouring who don't happen to be Picador authors, friends of O'Brien or clients of his missus. (Are there, for example, some meritorious women? Apparently not, to judge by the omission of Alice Oswald, Carol Ann Duffy, Helen Dunmore and Selima Hill from the Forward list.) Until the Forward organizers desist from asking O'Brazen and his cronies to judge their prize, we may never know. "Bookworm" From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Tue Jul 30 10:49:09 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 07:49:09 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration References: <3D45C1B0.2CBF52EB@earthlink.net> <003501c23775$d4d70d80$52864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <3D46A764.1FDCCBD1@earthlink.net> ganesha wrote: > > Yeah, I have seen paintings done after a poem. Of course, they were > Australian. Does that count with you? > > Of course. Tell us about it. - Jim From marcus at designerglass.com Tue Jul 30 12:53:48 2002 From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:53:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] PWLGC Literary Center In-Reply-To: <31.2aa89c10.2a77ed9d@aol.com> Message-ID: <3D468C5C.20198.144437E@localhost> The Poets' and Writers' League of Greater Cleveland (PWLGC) announces the opening of its new Literary Center at 12200 Fairhill Road, Townhouse 3A, Cleveland, Ohio 44120 The members and Donors Preview Party is 7 pm August 17, 2002 The Literary Center Open House, open to the general public, is 1- 4pm Sunday August 18, 2002 Y'all come -- we don't go much. For more information email pwlgc at msn.com or call 216/421-0403 Darlene Montanaro is the Executive Director Annual Dues for membership in the PWLGC (which includes a subscription to OHIO WRITER) are: Regular Member $25 Special Memmber (students, seniors, unemployed) $15 Marcus Bales marcus at designerglass.com http://www.designerglass.com From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jul 31 13:30:49 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 01:30:49 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan re incestuous dealings References: <31.2aa89c10.2a77ed9d@aol.com> Message-ID: <002901c238b8$04dfd0f0$67864cca@JROSS2> Oh, hey -- we get a lot of the same sort of incestuous dealings in Australia ... and although the greater number of poets are femmes, it's still primarily considered to be a boys' genre ... when poetry gets any consideration at all, that is. sigh. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:24 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] The Fix Is In > from the 'Books and Bookmen' column of _Private Eye_ July 26, 2002 > > POETS CORNERED > > The small but perfectly formed world of modern British poetry looks > even smaller following the announcement of the shortlist for the > Forward Prize, Britain's biggest poetry award. > > This year's judges include two poets published by Picador (Sean > O'Brien and Michael Donaghy), who have shortlisted two other Picador > poets (Peter Porter and Paul Farley) for the =A310,000 top prize. Last > year's judging panel also included two Picador poets--Donaghy (again) > and Peter Porter. > > Last year Porter gave the main prize to Sean O'Brien. What's the > betting O'Brien won't now give it back to his mentor, enabling both > friends to pocket ten grand? Or will their proteg=E9 Paul Farley be > the one to take the loot this time around? > > Last year the =A35,000 prize for "best first collection" went to > another Picador poet, John Stammers (a product of Donaghy's poetry > workshops), and the =A31,000 "best single poem" prize was given to Ian > Duhig for a poem--you guessed it--from his forthcoming Picador > collection. The same poem earlier won Duhig the =A35,000 top prize in > the Poetry Society's national poetry competition, judged by a > three-man panel including his mate Don Paterson, the foul-mouthed > Scottish bard who also happens to be the poetry editor at, er, > Picador. > > This year's five-poet Forward shortlist includes two other chums, > David Harsent and John Fuller (winner of the Forward prize in 1996, > when one of the judges was again Sean O'Brien). And Sean O'Brien was > one of three judges of the 1997 T. S. Eliot prize (worth =A35,000), > which was awarded to. . . his own editor, Don Paterson. > > Duhig, Donaghy, O'Brien, Harsent and Paterson all have the same > agent, TriplePa, aka Gerry Wardle--who just happens to be Sean > O'Brien's partner. And Donaghy, Duhig, Farley, Fuller, Harsent, > Paterson and Porter have all received fulsome write-ups from the > _Sunday Times's_ main poetry critic, one Sean O'Brien. > > Those outside the charmed circle may wonder if there are any poets > worth honouring who don't happen to be Picador authors, friends of > O'Brien or clients of his missus. (Are there, for example, some > meritorious women? Apparently not, to judge by the omission of Alice > Oswald, Carol Ann Duffy, Helen Dunmore and Selima Hill from the > Forward list.) Until the Forward organizers desist from asking > O'Brazen and his cronies to judge their prize, we may never know. > > "Bookworm" > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From chryss at silcom.com Wed Jul 31 13:36:16 2002 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:36:16 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Donaghy In-Reply-To: <002901c238b8$04dfd0f0$67864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: That said, Michael Donaghy is a fantastic poet. If you're not familiar with his work, check it out. . . > From: "ganesha" > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 01:30:49 +0800 > To: > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re incestuous dealings > > Oh, hey -- we get a lot of the same sort of incestuous dealings in Australia > ... and although the greater number of poets are femmes, it's still > primarily considered to be a boys' genre ... when poetry gets any > consideration at all, that is. sigh. > > Zan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:24 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Fix Is In > > >> from the 'Books and Bookmen' column of _Private Eye_ July 26, 2002 >> >> POETS CORNERED >> >> The small but perfectly formed world of modern British poetry looks >> even smaller following the announcement of the shortlist for the >> Forward Prize, Britain's biggest poetry award. >> >> This year's judges include two poets published by Picador (Sean >> O'Brien and Michael Donaghy), who have shortlisted two other Picador >> poets (Peter Porter and Paul Farley) for the =A310,000 top prize. Last >> year's judging panel also included two Picador poets--Donaghy (again) >> and Peter Porter. >> >> Last year Porter gave the main prize to Sean O'Brien. What's the >> betting O'Brien won't now give it back to his mentor, enabling both >> friends to pocket ten grand? Or will their proteg=E9 Paul Farley be >> the one to take the loot this time around? >> >> Last year the =A35,000 prize for "best first collection" went to >> another Picador poet, John Stammers (a product of Donaghy's poetry >> workshops), and the =A31,000 "best single poem" prize was given to Ian >> Duhig for a poem--you guessed it--from his forthcoming Picador >> collection. The same poem earlier won Duhig the =A35,000 top prize in >> the Poetry Society's national poetry competition, judged by a >> three-man panel including his mate Don Paterson, the foul-mouthed >> Scottish bard who also happens to be the poetry editor at, er, >> Picador. >> >> This year's five-poet Forward shortlist includes two other chums, >> David Harsent and John Fuller (winner of the Forward prize in 1996, >> when one of the judges was again Sean O'Brien). And Sean O'Brien was >> one of three judges of the 1997 T. S. Eliot prize (worth =A35,000), >> which was awarded to. . . his own editor, Don Paterson. >> >> Duhig, Donaghy, O'Brien, Harsent and Paterson all have the same >> agent, TriplePa, aka Gerry Wardle--who just happens to be Sean >> O'Brien's partner. And Donaghy, Duhig, Farley, Fuller, Harsent, >> Paterson and Porter have all received fulsome write-ups from the >> _Sunday Times's_ main poetry critic, one Sean O'Brien. >> >> Those outside the charmed circle may wonder if there are any poets >> worth honouring who don't happen to be Picador authors, friends of >> O'Brien or clients of his missus. (Are there, for example, some >> meritorious women? Apparently not, to judge by the omission of Alice >> Oswald, Carol Ann Duffy, Helen Dunmore and Selima Hill from the >> Forward list.) Until the Forward organizers desist from asking >> O'Brazen and his cronies to judge their prize, we may never know. >> >> "Bookworm" >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au Wed Jul 31 13:43:53 2002 From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 01:43:53 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan re painting/poetry collaborations References: <3D45C1B0.2CBF52EB@earthlink.net> <003501c23775$d4d70d80$52864cca@JROSS2> <3D46A764.1FDCCBD1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <005701c238bb$30aed840$67864cca@JROSS2> Off hand I can think of two. 1) There was a true collaboration between the rather well-known Aussie poet, John Kinsella and immigrant artist,Carl Wiebca, where Wiebca played off the tonality of the poetry of Kinsella, relating it to colour and medium. Interestingly, Wiebca did this one piece of work which was a series of six' dowel rods variously painted with stunning, seemingly random colours down the length of each rod. There was a printed card next to the exhibit instructing the viewer to imagine each dab of colour as music. In my head I carried the exercise one step further and went one step further, changing music into words. This was one of the most moving experiences I've had with an individual piece of art. 2) An artist I know (another German immigrant), Herman Issac, worked with a poet who gave him pieces, and he reacted to each one with a collographic print. When the exhibit was hung, the poem was placed to the left of each piece, so as to be read first. Herman also had a printed reaction to the poem placed to the right of each print. I'll try to write out a few more when I have more time. Zan ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Cervantes" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:49 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration > > > ganesha wrote: > > > > Yeah, I have seen paintings done after a poem. Of course, they were > > Australian. Does that count with you? > > > > > > Of course. Tell us about it. > > - Jim > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From MillB at aol.com Wed Jul 31 14:02:06 2002 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 14:02:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan re painting/poetry collaborations Message-ID: <197.aa324da.2a79801e@aol.com> A collaboration that I've enjoyed is Neil Curry and the artist Jim Dine. From jvcervantes at earthlink.net Wed Jul 31 19:51:50 2002 From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 16:51:50 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan re painting/poetry collaborations References: <3D45C1B0.2CBF52EB@earthlink.net> <003501c23775$d4d70d80$52864cca@JROSS2> <3D46A764.1FDCCBD1@earthlink.net> <005701c238bb$30aed840$67864cca@JROSS2> Message-ID: <3D487816.BABFDEAA@earthlink.net> Interesting. Verbal tonalities to color tonalities (smooth sticks aside) to musical tonalities, then back to verbal tonalities. It has the ring of a Romantic or Victorian exercise and, as I write that, a faint bell goes off. Something to do with Werther? Some years back, the Scottsdale Center for the Arts was commissioning poets to write poems after/on/inspired by works in current exhibitions. I was one of several poets asked to do that. The end note to the poem says: "On a Sam Francis painting, "Untitled," 1985 (30X30), "Plate 11"; poem commissioned by Scottsdale Center for the Arts, May 15, 1996." When I looked at the poem again, I couldn't visualize the painting! - Jim ganesha wrote: > > Off hand I can think of two. 1) There was a true collaboration between the > rather well-known Aussie poet, John Kinsella and immigrant artist,Carl > Wiebca, where Wiebca played off the tonality of the poetry of Kinsella, > relating it to colour and medium. Interestingly, Wiebca did this one piece > of work which was a series of six' dowel rods variously painted with > stunning, seemingly random colours down the length of each rod. There was a > printed card next to the exhibit instructing the viewer to imagine each dab > of colour as music. In my head I carried the exercise one step further and > went one step further, changing music into words. This was one of the most > moving experiences I've had with an individual piece of art. 2) An artist I > know (another German immigrant), Herman Issac, worked with a poet who gave > him pieces, and he reacted to each one with a collographic print. When the > exhibit was hung, the poem was placed to the left of each piece, so as to be > read first. Herman also had a printed reaction to the poem placed to the > right of each print. > > I'll try to write out a few more when I have more time. > > Zan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Cervantes" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:49 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration > > > > > > > ganesha wrote: > > > > > > Yeah, I have seen paintings done after a poem. Of course, they were > > > Australian. Does that count with you? > > > > > > > > > > Of course. Tell us about it. > > > > - Jim > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry