From grahamd  Fri Feb  1 00:31:33 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:31:33 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  2 Merwin poems
Message-ID: <200202010530.g115UiA44842@mx6.mx.voyager.net>

I recall that Robert Frost used to brag that he could write a whole telegram
without needing punctuation marks (which cost extra)--such was his mastery
of syntax.  Merwin's similarly masterful, I agree.  And I find his poems
always read aloud nicely.  

He's a great translator, at least in terms of making the Englished versions
musical and lucid.  I must admit that my love of his work (once pretty
strong) has steadily dimished over time.  Not sure why, but I think it
sometimes has to do with a certain generic quality to his diction--if the
term Deep Image means anything anymore (and I have my doubts) it probably
refers to a certain generic or primal vocabulary.

So when I encounter "green fronds" or "the animals" in a Merwin lyric, I
often wonder why he didn't write "palm fronds" or "the Holsteins."  He often
seems to prefer to be generalized, which for me can produce a blurry effect.

Skating on the thin ice of taste. . . .

David Graham


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 2 Merwin poems
>Date: Thu, Jan 31, 2002, 5:18 PM
>

>In a message dated 1/30/02 3:22:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>gmcvay at patriot.net writes:
>
>> Oh God, someone showed him the "Robert Bly Deep Image Instant Poetry
>>  Generator."
>Actually Merwin holds the patent on deep image poetry, doesn't he? 
>Those new poems I forwarded from a knopf poetry list may not be his best..
>but book after book Merwin has stuck to his central themes; themes I'm 
>in sympathy with. And his treatment of those themes if often imaginative 
>in both a  philosophical and poetic sense. Also, he's writes amazingly 
>seamless poetry for someone who writes without the conventional 
>punctuation set. I'm wondering if any of you who know more about linguistics
>than I do can say whether or not there are things you just can't do in 
>English 
>without punctuation marks? 
>Finnegan



From JforJames  Fri Feb  1 08:45:49 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:45:49 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking URL
Message-ID: <a4.206784f8.298bf60d@aol.com>

From:    Randolph Healy <healymac at GOFREE.INDIGO.IE>
Subject: Re: new book available online

yes indeed, a wonderful resource, with over a 100 poets.
It's at   http://www.thing.net/%7Egrist/l&d/lighthom.htm

best

Randolph

PS I'm working on a list of poetry links at www.wildhoneypress.com/links.htm
I'd be grateful if people could help me fill in the _many_ gaps by sending
urls bc.



From grahamd  Fri Feb  1 10:56:58 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:56:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Langston Hughes
Message-ID: <200202011555.g11FtPR05944@mx13.mx.voyager.net>

Let's raise a birthday toast to Langston Hughes, shall we?

Morning After

I was so sick last night I
Didn't hardly know my mind.
So sick last night I
Didn't know my mind.
I drunk some bad licker that
Almost made me blind.

Had a dream last night I
Thought I was in hell.
I drempt last night I
Thought I was in hell.
Woke up and looked around me--
Babe, your mouth was open like a well.

I said, Baby! Baby!
Please don't snore so loud.
Baby! Please!
Please don't snore so loud.
You jest a little bit o' woman but you
Sound like a great big crowd.
--Langston Hughes


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




From jdavis  Fri Feb  1 16:24:04 2002
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:24:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Geoffrey Chaucer, from "The 
 Knight's Tale"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020129191948.007fbc30@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202011621510.9716-100000@panix3.panix.com>

Barry,

I like Chaucer too, but usually it's his characters and his dialogue that
strike me as for the ages, and not his settings --so I'm curious, why this
passage? Is it for the purposes of comparing literary portraits of trees
in winter?

Jordan





From jdavis  Fri Feb  1 20:51:51 2002
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:51:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020131150250.007c64d0@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202012046450.1265-100000@panix3.panix.com>

Gosh! Barry! Sorry to hear you've been teaching from BAP 2001, as nice as
the poems of my friends in there are -- what's up, is it a poetry fashion
class? Next year's even better, Creeley's taken three from my magazine,
The Hat. But I have to say, Ceravolo's from another world, died in '88,
and I think you'd do better to find out more about him before you lump him
in with whichever professional obscurantists you find enervating. Chaucer
deserves better (and really, to be represented by a better passage, too).

Jordan




From grahamd  Fri Feb  1 23:50:09 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 22:50:09 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <200202020448.g124miR15052@mx15.mx.voyager.net>

I find the Best American Poetry books of uneven interest--duh!--depending
upon who's editing.  Doesn't everyone?  The only perfect one I edit in my
dreams.

But I honestly don't understand the sneer about "a poetry fashion class": 
does that refer to *all* BAP's, Jordan, or do you find Hass's volume in
particular to be unduly trendy (with due allowance for your friends'
presumably nonfashionable work)?  Or should one not teach from the BAP
series on principle?  If so, what principle would that be?  If not, what's
wrong with the Hass volume in particular?  (Possibly you may actually
*agree* with Barry about something!)

I'm teaching this term from Bly's 1999 BAP, myself.  As ever, I find Bly to
be a most interesting editor (more interesting to me these days than he is
as poet).  One of the things I like about his BAP is that he neither
excludes stodgy Big Name poets and journals (Milosz, Olds, Creeley, Wilbur;
New Yorker, AGNI, Hudson Review, etc.) nor the more obscure. 

Along with quite a few Usual Suspects, Bly introduces poems by folks like
William Kulik, Amy Holman, Revan Schendler, Timothy Young, Franco Pagnucci,
Diane Thiel; and selects from such journals as Water Stone, Solo, Cream City
Review, Fence, Rosebud, Tor House Newsletter, Hambone, Alkali Flats,
Blasts!, The Bitter Oleander, The Progressive, and Blue Sofa.  

If that's a fashion show, it's a pleasantly motley one.

David Graham


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: Jordan Davis <jdavis at panix.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!
>Date: Fri, Feb 1, 2002, 7:51 PM
>

>
>Gosh! Barry! Sorry to hear you've been teaching from BAP 2001, as nice as
>the poems of my friends in there are -- what's up, is it a poetry fashion
>class? Next year's even better, Creeley's taken three from my magazine,
>The Hat. But I have to say, Ceravolo's from another world, died in '88,
>and I think you'd do better to find out more about him before you lump him
>in with whichever professional obscurantists you find enervating. Chaucer
>deserves better (and really, to be represented by a better passage, too).
>
>Jordan
>



From snospx  Fri Feb  1 01:09:28 2002
From: snospx (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:09:28 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202012046450.1265-100000@panix3.panix.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.20020131150250.007c64d0@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020131220928.007e24b0@snowcrest.net>

At 08:51 PM 2/1/02 -0500, you wrote:
>
>(to be represented by a better passage, too).

send us one truer to your taste, Jordan

b



From snospx  Fri Feb  1 01:21:27 2002
From: snospx (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:21:27 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
In-Reply-To: <200202020448.g124miR15052@mx15.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020131222127.007e5100@snowcrest.net>

At 10:50 PM 2/1/02 -0600, you wrote:
>
>I'm teaching this term from Bly's 1999 BAP, myself. 

thanks to David for wiping at least one Jordan-sneer
from my woefully uneducated face (and also to say that,
over my years of using BAP, the Bly wins my vote, too,
as the least clanish, most ranging & engaging
of the lot -- I may go back to it, simply pass on the 2002).

B.



From bobgrumman  Sat Feb  2 06:42:19 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 06:42:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
References: <200202020448.g124miR15052@mx15.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <003f01c1abde$ac7ac160$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

> I find the Best American Poetry books of uneven interest--duh!--depending
> upon who's editing.  Doesn't everyone?  The only perfect one I edit in my
> dreams.


Just to voice my annoyance again let me go on record as saying that I
consider
ALL the Best American Poetry books the literary equivalent of painting
anthologies from 1970 that had no works by abstract expressionists (and
didn't so
much as mention them in their introductions), and had maybe one or two by
surrealists.  I couldn't edit a perfect Best American Poetry anthology even
in
my dreams, but the one I edited would cover at least twice the number of
significant schools of American poetry than the best of the ones so far
published.
Still, I would expect them to be the anthologies favored by academics and
would
not be bothered by them if it weren't for the egregiously stupid title
they're sold under.

                                                                            
                --Bob G.




From MillB  Sat Feb  2 10:24:03 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:24:03 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <8e.2252ea8e.298d5e93@aol.com>

Re: BAP

Maybe it's an addiction, but I buy them every year.  

I enjoy introduction and the "essay about poetry" from the guest editor.  I 
like seeing who "made" it, then I read the bios and descriptions of "why I 
wrote this poem" in the back.  

After that, I check out the list of journals.  Last, and definitely least, I 
read the poems--which for the most part are disappointments. I cannot explain 
why, but I've never found a poem or a cluster of poems that I thought were 
magical or innovative or fresh. . some nice work. . .and I personally would 
be honored to make it into BAP, but--as a whole--nothing to write home about.

Cheers,

Mill



From grahamd  Sat Feb  2 11:43:10 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 10:43:10 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <200202021642.g12GgNA75640@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

Just curious, Mill, where have you found a cluster of poems lately that you
thought *were* magical or innovative or fresh?  Let me know and I'm there.

I guess I don't look to the BAP's (or any anthologies, really) for such
epiphanies.  Some nice work's about all I expect.  If I get introduced to
some good poems or journals new to me, that's gravy.  And I don't think that
all BAP's are the same--as the rotating editorship would suggest.  

Somehow I doubt *Some Nice Poems 2002* would have quite the same sales
appeal. . . .  

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: MillB at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
>Date: Sat, Feb 2, 2002, 9:24 AM
>

>Re: BAP
>
>Maybe it's an addiction, but I buy them every year.  
>
>I enjoy introduction and the "essay about poetry" from the guest editor.  I 
>like seeing who "made" it, then I read the bios and descriptions of "why I 
>wrote this poem" in the back.  
>
>After that, I check out the list of journals.  Last, and definitely least, I 
>read the poems--which for the most part are disappointments. I cannot explain 
>why, but I've never found a poem or a cluster of poems that I thought were 
>magical or innovative or fresh. . some nice work. . .and I personally would 
>be honored to make it into BAP, but--as a whole--nothing to write home about.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mill
>_______________________________________________



From grahamd  Sat Feb  2 11:46:54 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 10:46:54 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <200202021645.g12GjE492888@mx5.mx.voyager.net>

Let the record show that the defendant agrees to stipulate that "Best
American Poetry" is an  egregiously stupid title.  Many of its editors have
made the same point in their introductions.

David Graham

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
>Date: Sat, Feb 2, 2002, 5:42 AM
>

>> I find the Best American Poetry books of uneven interest--duh!--depending
>> upon who's editing.  Doesn't everyone?  The only perfect one I edit in my
>> dreams.
>
>
>Just to voice my annoyance again let me go on record as saying that I
>consider
>ALL the Best American Poetry books the literary equivalent of painting
>anthologies from 1970 that had no works by abstract expressionists (and
>didn't so
>much as mention them in their introductions), and had maybe one or two by
>surrealists.  I couldn't edit a perfect Best American Poetry anthology even
>in
>my dreams, but the one I edited would cover at least twice the number of
>significant schools of American poetry than the best of the ones so far
>published.
>Still, I would expect them to be the anthologies favored by academics and
>would
>not be bothered by them if it weren't for the egregiously stupid title
>they're sold under.
>
>                                                                            
>                --Bob G.



From Thom424  Sat Feb  2 11:53:46 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:53:46 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <164.82178ef.298d739a@aol.com>

Let's steal from Garrison Keillor. For next year, how about SOME PRETTY GOOD 
AMERICAN POETRY 2002.


Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN



From halvard  Sat Feb  2 12:47:10 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:47:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:BAP!  POW!  BLY!
In-Reply-To: <164.82178ef.298d739a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEICEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Another one of those years when all poems are above average?

Hal           "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy."
                                  --Robert Ashley

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html

************************************************


Let's steal from Garrison Keillor. For next year, how about SOME PRETTY GOOD 
AMERICAN POETRY 2002.


Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Sat Feb  2 13:15:40 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:15:40 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <109.ccba8c0.298d86cc@aol.com>

A friend of mine did a little survey of all past BAPs
and guess who makes the most appearances?
Since there's no prize I'll just tell you--Donald Hall.
These anthologies, whatever their deficiencies, have
provoked some debate over the years...Bloom v. Rich
was a course a major dust-up. Glad to hear the Bly
getting credit for something instead of getting kicked 
once again.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman  Sat Feb  2 14:39:20 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:39:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:BAP!  POW!  BLY!
References: <164.82178ef.298d739a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002501c1ac21$4fce4160$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

> Let's steal from Garrison Keillor. For next year, how about SOME PRETTY
GOOD
> AMERICAN POETRY 2002.
>
>
> Thom Tammaro

I like that--but to do it RILLY right, I suggest SOME *mostly* PRETTY GOOD
AMERICAN POETRY 2002--and maybe put a few items in it to provoke not a Bloom
versus Rich
(or Republican versus Democrat) debate, but a debate between differences of
substance.

                                                                    --Ol'
Mr. Sour Grapes Cynic, Grumman





From bobgrumman  Sat Feb  2 15:18:35 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:18:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
References: <8e.2252ea8e.298d5e93@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1ac26$cbf12dc0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

Now that David has agreed with me about the title of the BAPs,
I'll leave them, and maybe him, too, alone for the rest of the year--I hope.
(I'm feeling very sanguine: today's my birthday, and--according to my
newspaper--people born today "are dynamic and highly original.  You can be
very sophisticated and classy when you want to be.  Despite your
worldly experience, you identify strongly with your early cultural
beginnings.  You attempt great feats and make them look effortless.  The
year ahead is one of the most powerful years you will have had in more than
a decade.  Power and wealth come to you.")  Actually, I'm only looking for
reasonable recognition--which looks like I may be close to getting, but as
a visual artist rather than as a poet.

Oh, and David, thanks for listing Comprepoetica.  Eventually, I hope to list
poetry sites at mine, too--and will return the favor.

                                                                            
    --Bob G.





From grahamd  Sat Feb  2 22:10:34 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 21:10:34 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <200202030309.g13396W15809@mx8.mx.voyager.net>

This reminds me of the interesting factoid I picked up in Jed Rasula's
*American Poetry Wax Museum*--that the most frequently anthologized poet
during the period 1950-1994 was (can anyone guess?) .  .  .   Richard
Wilbur.

He's thus ahead of Lowell, Bishop, Ginsberg, Roethke, and Merwin, his
closest competitors--and way ahead of Creeley, Berryman, Snyder, Plath,
Ashbery, Kinnell, Levertov, Sexton, Merrill, et al.  

As for Bly, David Lehman's blurb on his 1997 *Morning Poems* ("a sensational
collection--[his] best in many years") was enough to cause me finally to
give it a look.  I think Lehman's right.  If you never liked Bly, you won't
like this, of course.  But if you once did, and had been disappointed by
much of his work in the 1980s and 1990s, it's well worth hunting up.

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Date: Sat, Feb 2, 2002, 12:15 PM


A friend of mine did a little survey of all past BAPs 
and guess who makes the most appearances? 
Since there's no prize I'll just tell you--Donald Hall. 
These anthologies, whatever their deficiencies, have 
provoked some debate over the years...Bloom v. Rich 
was a course a major dust-up. Glad to hear the Bly 
getting credit for something instead of getting kicked 
once again. 
Finnegan 
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From jdavis  Sun Feb  3 07:56:39 2002
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 07:56:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] pain songs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020131222127.007e5100@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202030747410.3240-100000@panix1.panix.com>

David G -

As I mentioned backchannel, I think I was out of line when I snapped at
the Best American Poetry series. Having trained my eyes on the fine print
of the Times' sports pages and the World Almanac's annual lists of
disasters and awards, I am grateful that something like those annals
exists for this art of ours. I remember seeing and liking poems by a
number of list-readers in those books over the years. Once one gets past
the names one knows and likes, and skips over the names one knows and
dislikes, there are usually two or three dozen that fall into the
undecided category, and those have yielded some pleasure every year. David
and his assistant Mark Bibbins deserve better than snippy comments about
fashion -- for their permissions work alone!

Jordan





From roger  Sun Feb  3 17:02:11 2002
From: roger (roger  day)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:02:11 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] The 12th Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry
Message-ID: <013901c1acfe$6ecbb880$e6d8883e@BYRON>

will take place in Cambridge, UK, over 3 days, from the 26th to 28th April 2002. The poets confirmed thus far are posted on the website - http://www.cccp-online.org/

A schedule will be posted on the website and new-poetry nearer the time.

Apologies to those who will receive this more than once.

Roger.






From MillB  Sun Feb  3 18:02:54 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:02:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top Ten
Message-ID: <82.1704ec63.298f1b9e@aol.com>

Greetings:

Here's a new thread.  Would anyone care to comment on which poetry journals 
are well-edited? influential?  The good "reads" in the literary world?  The 
best "credits"?

Cheers,

Mill



From david.bircumshaw  Sun Feb  3 15:53:04 2002
From: david.bircumshaw (david.bircumshaw)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 20:53:04 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Masthead
Message-ID: <01da01c1acf4$c73017a0$8bf4a8c0@netserver>

David Bircumshaw
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alison Croggon" <acroggon at bigpond.com>
To: "david.bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:32 PM
Subject: Masthead


Announcing Masthead No. 5 - now up at

http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/

Poetry selections:  RANDOLPH HEALY, ELIZABETH JAMES, PIERRE JORIS, 
TREVOR JOYCE, JACINTA LE PLASTRIER, SOPHIE LEVY, ALAN SONDHEIM, 
HARRIET ZINNES

Theatre texts: DAVID BIRCUMSHAW and MARGARET CAMERON

Essays: SOPHIE LEVY on innovative lyric poetry by women, JACINTA LE 
PLASTRIER on gender, JOHN KINSELLA on bioethics, RICHARD TOOP on the 
controversy around US composer John Adams

Interviews: SLAWOMIR MROZEK by ARNI IBSEN and ABDELWAHAB MEDDEB by 
FRANK BERBERICH, translated by PIERRE JORIS

Photographs:  JACQUELINE MITELMAN

********

ISLAM AND ITS DISCONTENTS

Interview of Tunisian writer Abdelwabab Meddeb by Frank Berberich, 
translated by Pierre Joris

"The one who claimed superiority or at least equality cannot grasp 
the process that has led him to such weakness when faced with the 
century-old opposite, enemy or adversary. ... Nietzsche himself 
thought that the Islamic subject was a subject that belonged much 
more to aristocratic morality, the morality of affirmation, which 
glorifies the one who gives without trying to receive; while the 
nature of resentment is to be in the position of the one who receives 
but who does not have the means to give, the one who is not 
affirmative. Thus the Islamic subject is no longer the man of the 
"yes" that illuminates the world and creates a naturally hegemonic 
being; from sovereign being he has become the man of the "no", the 
one who refuses, who is no longer active but only re-active."


NO ONE BELIEVES PLAYS:  AN INTERVIEW WITH SLAWOMIR MROZEK, by Arni Ibsen

"I don't see myself in a context at all because I don't construct my 
ego or my self-image. Absolutely not. I know that sounds untrue 
because writers usually construct themselves very much in a literary 
way, but that's part of the writer's energy. I don't do that. It's an 
uninteresting part of the writer's life."


BONE: A MONOLOGUE FOR TWO, by David Bircumshaw

"I have often thought, Bone, of how you would survive without my 
assistance. For I am a kindly man, Bone. I recall well how I rescued 
you that day, when I used to walk, the last time I walked, when you 
were blindly standing by the kerb, pitifully incapable of crossing.  
We cannot all cross that road, Bone.  I, of course, have no need to 
now. But you, Bone? No, not you."


KNOWLEDGE AND MELANCHOLY: AN AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL FICTION, by Margaret Cameron

"How do you think I have lived? You will not grant me autonomy. 
Inert with depression, you insult me. I try to save this house. Oh 
the persistent unhappy demands of my life! Anyone would consider 
escape. Your instability compromises me. I am afraid of you. In your 
house, my 'landlord', I am subject to you. I call witness: be my 
guard! I am speaking of 'safe houses'. I cannot let this go 
unattended. Your support is getting thin. I ration food. Your visits 
brief as Christmas leave me poor. I savour luxuries you leave 
everything breaking. You make me cry poor. "


ARE WE SPEAKING (OF) "THE NATURAL LANGUAGE OF MEN"? ANNE CARSON, 
KATHLEEN FRASER, GRACE LAKE: INNOVATING LYRIC POETRY, by Sophie Levy

"In a sense, claiming the first person pronoun, as lyric does, is 
always a mistake, as the poem works to throw off its disembodied 'I'. 
This is especially striking in the work of experimental women writers 
like Fraser, who knows that it is as hard to get 'I' into the 
sentence as 'she,' when the 'I,' like Echo, is a She. Natural 
language - the image in the water - is always shifting, depending on 
the perspective from which it is seen. Sometimes the lyric 'I' has to 
be disembodied in order to access ways of speaking of who we think we 
are."


THE CASE FOR CONTROL, by Richard Toop

"Perhaps the most spectacular contribution to 'The Death of 
Klinghoffer' debate came from an academic, Prof. Richard Taruskin, of 
the University of California at Berkeley. Taruskin is, by general 
consent, one of America's leading musicologists, and probably the 
greatest living authority on Russian music. He is also known as a 
robust controversialist. On December 9 2001, the New York Times 
published a near 3000-word essay of his, entitled 'Music's Dangers 
and the Case for Control'; in terms of setting the tone of future 
arts discourse in America, it may prove to be as significant as 
anything else he has written."


PLAGUES AND BIOETHICS, by John Kinsella

"Quarantine isn't just about keeping diseases out, protecting a 
specific geography from physical contamination, but also about the 
preservation of "home" values. It is about a mental and spiritual 
"purity"."


ART AND GENDER: NOTES TOWARDS A POETIC, by Jacinta le Plastrier

"...the issue of gender - the nature of sexual and gender 
separateness - is both too coarse and too polite for poetry - and, by 
extension, in the context of this discussion, art.

"Too coarse, because poetry sings into being, which lives in the 
mouth of life, in the mouth of death; a large mouth, too large for 
such coarseness. Too polite, because poetry sings into being... a 
mouth so large it simply annihilates such convention and restraint."

Masthead
arts, culture and politics

http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/





From grahamd  Sun Feb  3 21:45:57 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 20:45:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top Ten
Message-ID: <200202040244.g142isc86820@mx10.mx.voyager.net>

I'm fond of *Parnassus:  Poetry in Review*.  They do publish poems, and I've
enjoyed a lot of them; but of course the real draw is the prose.  Some of
the best reviews around--often long and meaty, and never mere puff jobs. 
The current issue has a very good essay by Lloyd Schwartz on an anthology of
popular song lyrics; a piece by Jon Volkmer on A. E. Housman; Vendler on
Dickinson; and reviews of James Merrill, John Montague, Theodore Enslin,
Constance Hunting, Irving Feldman, and others; plus a feature on Mallarme.  

Perhaps best of all, it's not a monthly or quarterly.  I can finish reading
each issue before the next one arrives.

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: MillB at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top Ten
>Date: Sun, Feb 3, 2002, 5:02 PM
>

>Greetings:
>
>Here's a new thread.  Would anyone care to comment on which poetry journals 
>are well-edited? influential?  The good "reads" in the literary world?  The 
>best "credits"?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mill



From j-mccann1  Tue Feb  5 13:36:31 2002
From: j-mccann1 (Janet McCann)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:36:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <3a.11097088.27c2978b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020205123631.0092c1b0@neo.tamu.edu>

Is this group still going?  Let me know; I will rejoin or whatever if it is.




From GrahamD  Tue Feb  5 14:25:28 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:25:28 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86CE3@mail.ripon.edu>

Ummm, Janet, is *what *group still going?  You mean the New-Poetry list?
(Or is there some sub-group called "Qualifications" that I don't know about?
Probably because I'm unqualified. . . .)

Anyway, if you mean the NewPo list, yes, it is going, and you just posted to
it.  Check out the archives if you're interested in catching up with recent
conversations:

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

We've been known to experience lulls, and perhaps you subscribed during one
of them?

David Graham

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================

> ----------
> From: 	Janet McCann
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, February 5, 2002 12:36 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
> 
> Is this group still going?  Let me know; I will rejoin or whatever if it
> is.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From JforJames  Tue Feb  5 19:24:53 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:24:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Secret Valentine
Message-ID: <18c.2e09981.2991d1d5@aol.com>

Read any good love poems lately?
---
Reply-to:? ? wwnorton-feedback-11 at lb.bcentral.com
To:? ? JforJames at aol.com (List Member)

http://www.nortonpoets.com

-----------
Looking for a Valentine's Day gift? Why not five days of love poetry?
Reply to this email with your beloved's email address* and we'll deliver a 
daily love poem, February 11-15

*Privacy strictly respected. Addresses will be used only to mail your gift. 

------------

**Norton Poets Online presents**
New this month: Shadow of Heaven by Ellen Bryant Voigt

Ireland's Love Poems, edited by A. Norman Jeffares

Poetry readings near you: Visit our author appearances page to find out which 
poets are reading in your neighborhood.

**Highlights coming this April**
New collections from Linda Pastan and Gerald Stern
Stanley Kunitz's Collected Poems in paperback
A first novel by poet James Lasdun

**Poem of the Month: "Dooryard Flower by Ellen Bryant Voigt**

Dooryard Flower

Because you are sick I want to bring you flowers,
flowers from the landscape that you love --
because it is your birthday and you're sick
I want to bring the outdoors inside,
the natural and the wild, picked by hand,
but nothing is blooming here but daffodils,
archipelagic in the short green
early grass, erupted
bulbs planted decades before we came,
the edge of where a garden once was kept
extended now in a string of islands I straddle
as in a fairy tale, harvesting,
not taking the single blossom from a clump
but thinning where they're thickest, tall-stemmed
from the mother patch, dwarf to the west, most
fully opened, a loosened whorl,
one with a pale spider luffing her thread,
one with a slow beetle chewing the lip, a few
with what's almost a lion's mane,
and because there is a shadow on your lungs, your liver,
and elsewhere, hidden,
some of those with delicate green
streaks in the clown's ruff (corolla --
actually made from adapted leaves), and more
right this moment starting to unfold, I've gathered
my two fists full, I carry them like a bride,
I am bringing you the only glorious thing
in the yards and fields between my house and yours,
none of the tulips budded yet, the lilac
a sheaf of sticks, the apple trees
withheld, the birch unleaved --
it could still be winter here, were it not
for green dotted with gold, but you won't wait
for dogtoothed violets, trillium under the pines,
and who could bear azaleas, dogwood, early profuse rose
of somewhere else when you're assaulted here, early May,
not any calm narcissus, orange corona
on scalloped white, not even it's slender stalk
in a fountain of leaves, no stiff cornets of the honest
jonquils, gendered parts upthrust in brass and cream:
just this common flash in anyone's yard, 
scrambled cluster of petals
crayon-yellow, as in a child's crawing of the sun,
I'm bringing you a sun, a children's choir, host
of transient voices, first bright
splash in the gray exhausted world, a feast
of the dooryard flower we call butter-and-egg. 

(c) 2002 by Ellen Bryant Voigt



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From grahamd  Wed Feb  6 00:37:57 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:37:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Second Looks
Message-ID: <200202060537.g165bA088417@mx11.mx.voyager.net>

Poetry Daily (http://www.poems.com/news.htm ) has a very nice article up now
by Michael Hoffman about James Schuyler.   It's a lucid and perceptive
appreciation that *almost* makes me think I could like Schuyler's work if I
tried harder.  It's from the London Review of Books:

 http://www.lrb.co.uk/v24/n03/hofm2403.htm 

But Hoffman's piece is also about how we can offer stiff resistance to poets
who later win us over.

Here's how he begins his essay:

"Not first sight, often enough, but a second look - it is a mysterious thing
with poetry that it finds its own moment. The poets that have meant most to
me --Lowell, Bishop, Schuyler --all, as it were, were rudely kept waiting by
me. I had their books, or I already knew some poems of theirs, but there was
no spark of transference. Then it happened, and our tepid prehistory was,
quite literally, forgotten beyond a lingering embarrassment at my own callow
unresponsiveness. It was as though they had always been with me, and I found
it difficult, conversely, to remember our first encounter."

This seems to beg for thread-spinning.  Who are the poets you now love that
you resisted initially?  How and why were you won over?

David Graham


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




From wasanthony  Wed Feb  6 07:20:16 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 04:20:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] attn: Anthony Robinson
Message-ID: <20020206122016.50814.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com>

Sorry to have to use the list this way, but there are gremlins afoot. 
Tony, I opened my earthlink mail this morning and saw that I had a
message from you.  Never got to it as my connection went down, but when
I was able to get back in, your message, as well as others, was not
there.  Vanished.  Gone. Not even in the trash.

Could you please resend.  You might also send to this Yahoo address
just in case.

- Jim

=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From rlong  Wed Feb  6 09:51:22 2002
From: rlong (Richard Long)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:51:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Chapbook at 2River
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206085037.01c20c08@pop3.slu.edu>

All,

2River today released FIRST WOMAN, a chapbook by Katja, in which the 
narrator experiences the loss of innocence, then discovers the surprise and 
disorder of being alive.

Katja is a neurologist, wife, and mother, with poems in several little 
magazines.

FIRST WOMAN, with art by Margot McGowan, is the 12th addition to the 2River 
Chapbook Series.

Richard Long

======
2River
rlong at 2River.org
http://www.2River.org




From halvard  Wed Feb  6 10:11:13 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:11:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: David Shapiro, "Photo Veritable"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOELPEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Photo Veritable

Clouds cover the earth
Passengers leave but the
clouds remain. The passengers
would like to nestle and ride
in the cancerous breasts
of the sky. But the clouds
are willful and shout as
they fly: "Dirigent, dirigent
dirigent and wealthy." You will live
like a god and like it, too.

--David Shapiro


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From tadrichards  Wed Feb  6 11:26:26 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:26:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: David Shapiro, "Photo Veritable"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOELPEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <008101c1af2b$06d71ce0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

I like this one -- it moves, and it surprises.




Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:11 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: David Shapiro, "Photo Veritable"


> 
> Photo Veritable
> 
> Clouds cover the earth
> Passengers leave but the
> clouds remain. The passengers
> would like to nestle and ride
> in the cancerous breasts
> of the sky. But the clouds
> are willful and shout as
> they fly: "Dirigent, dirigent
> dirigent and wealthy." You will live
> like a god and like it, too.
> 
> --David Shapiro
> 
> 
> Hal
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Thu Feb  7 10:43:27 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:43:27 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet of the people
Message-ID: <106.ccceccd.2993fa9f@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/5/02 12:30:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
gudding at olemiss.edu writes:

> Subj:  Fwd: Poet of the people
>  Date:    2/5/02 12:30:05 AM Eastern Standard Time
>  From:    gudding at olemiss.edu (Gudding)
>  Sender:  new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  To:  new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  
>  
>  >Date:         Mon, 4 Feb 2002 19:40:08 -0500
>  >Reply-To: Discussion of African-American Literature/Criticism
>  >               <AFAM-LIT at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
>  >Sender: Discussion of African-American Literature/Criticism
>  >               <AFAM-LIT at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
>  >From: "Thomas, Lorenzo" <ThomasL at UHD.EDU>
>  >Subject:      Poet of the people
>  >To: AFAM-LIT at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU
>  >
>  >This Story has been sent to you by : ThomasL at uhd.edu
>  >
>  >'He always carried a smile," Luella Patterson, his Lawrence, Kan., 
>  >schoolmate, remembered years later. "He had smiles and just everybody 
>  >loved him."
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >Read the full story at the address below:
>  >
>  
><http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2002/02/02/magazine/RANT02.htm>http:
> //inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2002/02/02/magazine/RANT02.htm
>  >
>  >
>  >  Here is a wonderful birthday tribute to Langston Hughes!
>  >Lorenzo
>  >
>  >
>  >



From halvard  Fri Feb  8 00:27:41 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:27:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Swarm
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEENJEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Swarm

Shallow water acoustics
random mutants,
solar warning

and real-time monitors,
space weather
aeronomical response

models, socialism
was a reality-based
movement,

sophists walking
among revolutionists
meditating.


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From odysseus34  Thu Feb  7 23:39:18 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34 at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 21:39:18 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEENJEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C635661.706B8D27@earthlink.net>


                                Tamer and Hawk
                                 Thom Gunn

                                 I thought I was so tough,
                                 But gentled at your hands,
                                 Cannot be quick enough
                                 To fly for you and show
                                 That when I go I go
                                 At your commands.

                                 Even in flight above
                                 I am no longer free:
                                 You seeled me with your love,
                                 I am blind to other birds.
                                 The habit of your words
                                 Has hooded me.

                                 As formerly, I wheel
                                 I hover and I twist,
                                 But only want the feel,
                                 In my possessive thought,
                                 Of catcher and of caught
                                 Upon your wrist.

                                 You but half civilize,
                                 Taming me in this way.
                                 Through having only eyes
                                 For you I fear to lose,
                                 I lose to keep, and choose
                                 Tamer as prey.




From adead_poet  Fri Feb  8 04:57:37 2002
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 03:57:37 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn: "Tamer and Hawk"
Message-ID: <F39Dvn8GI6GfiFqL5Hm00000e12@hotmail.com>

thanks for sharing this. i'm reading gunn's collected poems, and i have to 
say, so far it is one of the books of poetry that i have enjoyed the most. 
it's such an enjoyable read. definitely in my top ten. i've read boss cupid, 
which i didn't like at all, but i knew i liked his work so i had to pick the 
collected poems. i think i'm adding gunn to my favorites list. if you 
haven't read it, you are missing out.

jason


>From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
>Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 21:39:18 -0700
>
>
>
>                                 Tamer and Hawk
>                                  Thom Gunn
>
>                                  I thought I was so tough,
>                                  But gentled at your hands,
>                                  Cannot be quick enough
>                                  To fly for you and show
>                                  That when I go I go
>                                  At your commands.
>
>                                  Even in flight above
>                                  I am no longer free:
>                                  You seeled me with your love,
>                                  I am blind to other birds.
>                                  The habit of your words
>                                  Has hooded me.
>
>                                  As formerly, I wheel
>                                  I hover and I twist,
>                                  But only want the feel,
>                                  In my possessive thought,
>                                  Of catcher and of caught
>                                  Upon your wrist.
>
>                                  You but half civilize,
>                                  Taming me in this way.
>                                  Through having only eyes
>                                  For you I fear to lose,
>                                  I lose to keep, and choose
>                                  Tamer as prey.
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com




From rloden  Fri Feb  8 22:14:05 2002
From: rloden (Rachel Loden)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:14:05 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
In-Reply-To: <3C635661.706B8D27@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c1b117$d61a5a60$03020140@default>

Wonder whether "Tamer and Hawk" was written partly in response to Robert
Duncan's "My Mother Would Be A Falconress." Gunn would certainly have
known it. Interesting to see the words in common, anyway--"hood,"
"wrist," "fly" of course. Here's the beginning of the Duncan (the rest
is in his SELECTED POEMS from New Directions):   


     My Mother Would Be A Falconress

     My mother would be a falconress,
     and I, her gay falcon treading her wrist,
     would fly to bring back
     from the blue of the sky to her, bleeding, a prize,
     where I dream in my little hood with many bells
     jangling when I'd turn my head.

     My mother would be a falconress,
     and she sends me as far as her will goes.
     She lets me ride to the end of her curb
     where I fall back in anguish.
     I dread that she will cast me away,
     for I fall, I mis-take, I fail in her mission.

     She would bring down the little birds.
     And I would bring down the little birds.
     When will she let me bring down the little birds,
     pierced from their flight with their necks broken,
     their heads like flowers limp from the stem?

     I tread my mother's wrist and would draw blood.
     Behind the little hood my eyes are hooded.
     I have gone back into my hooded silence,
     talking to myself and dropping off to sleep.

     For she has muffled my dreams in the hood she has made me,
     sewn round with bells, jangling when I move.
     She rides with her little falcon upon her wrist.
     She uses a barb that brings me to cower.
     She sends me abroad to try my wings
     and I come back to her. I would bring down
     the little birds to her
     I may not tear into, I must bring back perfectly.

     I tear at her wrist with my beak to draw blood,
     and her eye holds me, anguisht, terrifying.
     She draws a limit to my flight.
     Never beyond my sight, she says.

     She trains me to fetch and to limit myself in fetching.
     She rewards me with meat for my dinner.
     But I must never eat what she sends me to bring her.

     Yet it would have been beautiful, if she would have carried me,
     always, in a little hood with the bells ringing,
     at her wrist, and her riding
     to the great falcon hunt, and me
     flying up to the curb of my heart from her heart
     to bring down the skylark from the blue to her feet,
     straining, and then released for the flight.

     My mother would be a falconress,
     and I her gerfalcon, raised at her will,
     from her wrist sent flying, as if I were her own
     pride, as if her pride
     knew no limits, as if her mind
     sought in me flight beyond the horizon....

    
> 
>                                 Tamer and Hawk
>                                  Thom Gunn
> 
>                                  I thought I was so tough,
>                                  But gentled at your hands,
>                                  Cannot be quick enough
>                                  To fly for you and show
>                                  That when I go I go
>                                  At your commands.
> 
>                                  Even in flight above
>                                  I am no longer free:
>                                  You seeled me with your love,
>                                  I am blind to other birds.
>                                  The habit of your words
>                                  Has hooded me.
> 
>                                  As formerly, I wheel
>                                  I hover and I twist,
>                                  But only want the feel,
>                                  In my possessive thought,
>                                  Of catcher and of caught
>                                  Upon your wrist.
> 
>                                  You but half civilize,
>                                  Taming me in this way.
>                                  Through having only eyes
>                                  For you I fear to lose,
>                                  I lose to keep, and choose
>                                  Tamer as prey.


People that are really weird can get into sensitive 
positions and have a tremendous impact on history.
  --J. Danforth Quayle

Rachel Loden
http://www.thepomegranate.com/loden/hotel.html
email: rloden at concentric.net
 




From odysseus34  Sat Feb  9 00:02:01 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 22:02:01 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
References: <001b01c1b117$d61a5a60$03020140@default>
Message-ID: <3C64AD3F.68B1D394@earthlink.net>


Rachel Loden wrote:

> Wonder whether "Tamer and Hawk" was written partly in response to Robert
> Duncan's "My Mother Would Be A Falconress." Gunn would certainly have
> known it.

Dear Rachel,

What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
idea.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From halvard  Sat Feb  9 10:34:38 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:34:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
In-Reply-To: <3C64AD3F.68B1D394@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEOKEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Thom Gunn on Duncan--

             THE DUMP


              He died,  and I admired 
              the crisp vehemence 
              of a lifetime reduced to 
              half a foot of shelf space. 
              But others came to me saying, 
              we too loved him,  let us take you 
              to the place of our love. 
              So they showed me 
              everything,  everything--
              a cliff of notebooks 
              with every draft and erasure 
              of every poem he 
              published or rejected, 
              thatched already 
              with webs of annotation. 
              I went in further and saw 
              a hill of matchcovers 
              from every bar or restaurant 
              he'd ever entered.  Trucks 
              backed up constantly, 
              piled with papers, and awaited 
              by archivists with shovels; 
              forklifts bumped through 
              trough and valley 
              to adjust the spillage. 
              Here odors of rubbery sweat 
              intruded on the pervasive 
              smell of stale paper, 
              no doubt from the mound 
              of his collected sneakers. 
              I clambered up the highest 
              pile and found myself 
              looking across not history 
              but the vistas of a steaming 
              range of garbage 
              reaching to the coast itself.  Then 
              I lost my footing! and was 
              carried down on a soft 
              avalanche of letters,  paid bills, 
              sexual polaroids,  and notes 
              refusing invitations,  thanking 
              fans,  resisting scholars. 
              In nightmare I slid, 
              no ground to stop me,

              until I woke at last 
              where I had napped beside 
              the precious half foot.  Beyond that, 
              nothing,  nothing at all. 

--Thom Gunn

{    What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
{    Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
{    idea.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html





From grahamd  Sat Feb  9 11:13:51 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:13:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Magical Thinking
Message-ID: <200202091613.g19GDe173713@mx6.mx.voyager.net>

On Poetry Daily today, the title poem of sometime NewPoeteer Joe Duemer's
new book, *Magical Thinking*.

http://www.poems.com/


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




From grahamd  Sat Feb  9 11:41:52 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:41:52 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "The Dump"
Message-ID: <200202091641.g19Gfep90066@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

I'd never seen that Gunn poem before, Hal. Do you know whether it's
collected in a book?  

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
>Date: Sat, Feb 9, 2002, 9:34 AM
>

>Thom Gunn on Duncan--
>
>             THE DUMP
>
>
>              He died,  and I admired 
>              the crisp vehemence 
>              of a lifetime reduced to 
>              half a foot of shelf space. 
>              But others came to me saying, 
>              we too loved him,  let us take you 
>              to the place of our love. 
>              So they showed me 
>              everything,  everything--
>              a cliff of notebooks 
>              with every draft and erasure 
>              of every poem he 
>              published or rejected, 
>              thatched already 
>              with webs of annotation. 
>              I went in further and saw 
>              a hill of matchcovers 
>              from every bar or restaurant 
>              he'd ever entered.  Trucks 
>              backed up constantly, 
>              piled with papers, and awaited 
>              by archivists with shovels; 
>              forklifts bumped through 
>              trough and valley 
>              to adjust the spillage. 
>              Here odors of rubbery sweat 
>              intruded on the pervasive 
>              smell of stale paper, 
>              no doubt from the mound 
>              of his collected sneakers. 
>              I clambered up the highest 
>              pile and found myself 
>              looking across not history 
>              but the vistas of a steaming 
>              range of garbage 
>              reaching to the coast itself.  Then 
>              I lost my footing! and was 
>              carried down on a soft 
>              avalanche of letters,  paid bills, 
>              sexual polaroids,  and notes 
>              refusing invitations,  thanking 
>              fans,  resisting scholars. 
>              In nightmare I slid, 
>              no ground to stop me,
>
>              until I woke at last 
>              where I had napped beside 
>              the precious half foot.  Beyond that, 
>              nothing,  nothing at all. 
>
>--Thom Gunn
>
>{    What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
>{    Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
>{    idea.
>
>Hal
>
>Halvard Johnson
>===============
>email: halvard at earthlink.net
>website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard  Sat Feb  9 12:24:04 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:24:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "The Dump"
In-Reply-To: <200202091641.g19Gfep90066@mx12.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEONEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I'm not absolutely sure, David, but it might be
in *Boss Cupid*.

{    I'd never seen that Gunn poem before, Hal. Do you know whether it's
{    collected in a book?  
{    
{    David Graham

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html





From JforJames  Sat Feb  9 13:26:44 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:26:44 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Alain Bosquet poem
Message-ID: <136.8b3e6d6.2996c3e4@aol.com>

The recent discussion of Ceravolo reminded me of the
work of Alain Bosquet. Here's a love poem I always liked...
Finnegan
---

       Without Definition

       love
       that ocean for mad antelope
       love 
       that eye nailing my eye
       on a star too drunk
       love
       that valise where toucans sleep
       that look like us
       love 
       that sun that protests
       at being in exile under its own knees
       love oblivion
       and the famished words
       gnawing that tangerine
       our memory


Alain Bosquest
(translated from the French by Wallace Fowlie)
Selected Poems by Alain Bosquest (Ohio U. Press, 1972)
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From JforJames  Sat Feb  9 13:40:54 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:40:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Translating Self
Message-ID: <e.19e474d4.2996c736@aol.com>


> Norton Poets Online
> http://www.wwnorton.com
> ---------------
> 
> **New in the Poet's Workshop
> Translating Self: Stealing From Wang Wei, Kowtowing To Hughes, 
> Hooking Up With Keats, Undone By Donne
> by Marilyn Chin
> 
> "I truly believe in identity poems. At one point or another, an immigrant 
> poet must tell the audience where she came from. But even though "How I Got 
> That Name" is currently my most anthologized poem, it is the kind of poem I 
> could only write once. I must move on to find other vessels to tell my 
> story, which, since I am a Chinese American woman, is complicated. So I 
> love to take conventions from both the Eastern and Western side of my 
> literary heritage and remake them into my own image (voila, the mirror, 
> again!). The process is an ever-evolving one. My challenge as a poet is to 
> find interesting ways to tell my complex tale. . . ."
> 
> 


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From grahamd  Sat Feb  9 14:06:54 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 13:06:54 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Translating Self
Message-ID: <200202091905.g19J5GS77751@mx1.mx.voyager.net>

Pardon the recurring plug, but some might care to know that Marilyn Chin's
essay (linked below) comes from a certain recent essay anthology, one of
whose editors is Kate Sontag, and about which interested parties may learn
more at the Poetry Library link in my signature.  (Look for *After
Confession*.)  

"Identity poetics" is one of the recurrent topics in the anthology.

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Translating Self
Date: Sat, Feb 9, 2002, 12:40 PM



Norton Poets Online 
http://www.wwnorton.com 
--------------- 

**New in the Poet's Workshop 
Translating Self: Stealing From Wang Wei, Kowtowing To Hughes, 
Hooking Up With Keats, Undone By Donne 
by Marilyn Chin 

"I truly believe in identity poems. At one point or another, an immigrant
poet must tell the audience where she came from. But even though "How I Got
That Name" is currently my most anthologized poem, it is the kind of poem I
could only write once. I must move on to find other vessels to tell my
story, which, since I am a Chinese American woman, is complicated. So I love
to take conventions from both the Eastern and Western side of my literary
heritage and remake them into my own image (voila, the mirror, again!). The
process is an ever-evolving one. My challenge as a poet is to find
interesting ways to tell my complex tale. . . ." 




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From rwilsnac  Sat Feb  9 16:43:01 2002
From: rwilsnac (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 13:43:01 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging and writing
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020209134113.00685828@medicine.nodak.edu>

Questions stimulated by Linda Pastan:

	Voices

Joan heard voices
and she burned for it.
Driving through the dark
I write poems.
Last night I drove through
a stop sign, pondering 
line breaks. 
When I explained
the policeman nodded,
then he gave me
a ticket.
Someone who knows told me
writers have fifteen years,
then comes repetition,
even madness.
Like Midas, I guess
everything we touch turns
to a poem ---
when the spell is on.
But think of the poet after that
touching the trees
he's always touched,
but this time nothing happens.
Picture him rushing from trunk
to trunk, bruising 
his hands on the rough bark.
Only five years left. 
Sometimes I bury
my poems in the garden,
saving them
for the cold days ahead.
One way or another
you burn for it.

	Linda Pastan, in **Carnival Evening**,
		Norton, 1998.
---------------------------

Judging from recent comments on this list about new
books by not-so-young poets (such as Bly), the burnout
does not afflict everyone. My impression is that Yeats
escaped this curse (though perhaps he did not feel so 
within himself). Perhaps it is a more common ailment 
among those of less than galactic creativity. But what 
do poets do when they experience the symptoms of a 
decline of inspiration, or when they fear its onset? 
Are there any patterns to be observed, or lessons to be 
learned? As a working scientist, I get off easy; it is 
not so hard to think of unanswered questions (if not 
ways to answer them). But for those who depend on finding 
swampfire or cello music in the woods, it must often be 
a more frightening concern...

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu

 





From Rsgwynn1  Sat Feb  9 14:57:36 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:57:36 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
Message-ID: <163.88fae04.2996d930@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/8/2002 11:59:58 PM Central Standard Time, 
odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes:


> 
> Dear Rachel,
> 
> What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
> Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
> idea.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 

Gunn has two essays on Duncan in Shelf Life, his book of prose from the 
Michigan series.
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From wasanthony  Sat Feb  9 15:06:38 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:06:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging and writing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020209134113.00685828@medicine.nodak.edu>
Message-ID: <20020209200638.13235.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com>

--- rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:

>  But what 
> do poets do when they experience the symptoms of a 
> decline of inspiration, or when they fear its onset? 
> Are there any patterns to be observed, or lessons to be 
> learned? As a working scientist, I get off easy; it is 
> not so hard to think of unanswered questions (if not 
> ways to answer them). But for those who depend on finding 
> swampfire or cello music in the woods, it must often be 
> a more frightening concern...

Thank you, thank you for supplying swampfire for my heart and cello
music for my ears.  I will send it to you when it's done - I've already
pre-heated the oven.

- Jim

=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From cstroffo  Sat Feb  9 15:15:57 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 12:15:57 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Alain Bosquet poem
References: <136.8b3e6d6.2996c3e4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C65837D.BD205D5C@earthlink.net>


Yeah, I remember really liking that book by Bosquest I had borrowed from

a friend in 1989. I haven't been able to find it since though; there was
some
book by New Directions perhaps also of him called "No Matter, No Fact"
(?)--
but it didn't seem as good as that Ohio one....

thanks for reminding me

Chris

JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> The recent discussion of Ceravolo reminded me of the
> work of Alain Bosquet. Here's a love poem I always liked...
> Finnegan
> ---
>
>       Without Definition
>
>       love
>       that ocean for mad antelope
>       love
>       that eye nailing my eye
>       on a star too drunk
>       love
>       that valise where toucans sleep
>       that look like us
>       love
>       that sun that protests
>       at being in exile under its own knees
>       love oblivion
>       and the famished words
>       gnawing that tangerine
>       our memory
>
>
> Alain Bosquest
> (translated from the French by Wallace Fowlie)
> Selected Poems by Alain Bosquest (Ohio U. Press, 1972)
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From ade3  Sat Feb  9 15:29:01 2002
From: ade3 (Andrew Epstein)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:29:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
Message-ID: <00f401c1b1a8$6ccd4ae0$8ee52344@cc296654-a.tharpe01.fl.comcast.net>

For more on Thom Gunn and Robert Duncan -- you might be interested in the
lead-off poem in Gunn's recent volume *Boss Cupid*, "Duncan," which is a
moving elegy to Duncan.   (Also, for the record, "Tamer and Hawk" is not in
Boss Cupid...)

There's also an excerpt from Gunn's critical writings on "My Mother Would Be
a Falconress" here:
http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/duncan/falcon.htm


Take care,
Andrew Epstein


-----Original Message-----
From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, February 09, 2002 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn: "Tamer and Hawk"


>
>
>Rachel Loden wrote:
>
>> Wonder whether "Tamer and Hawk" was written partly in response to Robert
>> Duncan's "My Mother Would Be A Falconress." Gunn would certainly have
>> known it.
>
>Dear Rachel,
>
>What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
>Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
>idea.
>
>Moira Russell
>Seattle, WA
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From trbell  Sat Feb  9 19:42:51 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:42:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging and writing
References: <20020209200638.13235.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <038d01c1b1cb$df2b0320$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

aging and illness are two life transitions that can be either negotiated or
not?  i think there are many poets who matured well and many who actually
began their careers at an advanced age?

tom bell

----- Original Message -----
From: "jcervantes" <wasanthony at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Aging and writing


>
> --- rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:
>
> >  But what
> > do poets do when they experience the symptoms of a
> > decline of inspiration, or when they fear its onset?
> > Are there any patterns to be observed, or lessons to be
> > learned? As a working scientist, I get off easy; it is
> > not so hard to think of unanswered questions (if not
> > ways to answer them). But for those who depend on finding
> > swampfire or cello music in the woods, it must often be
> > a more frightening concern...
>
> Thank you, thank you for supplying swampfire for my heart and cello
> music for my ears.  I will send it to you when it's done - I've already
> pre-heated the oven.
>
> - Jim
>
> =====
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
> Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
> Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
> Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
> http://greetings.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From grahamd  Sat Feb  9 15:47:07 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 14:47:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
Message-ID: <200202092045.g19KjIh69815@mx8.mx.voyager.net>

Gunn's "Tamer & Hawk" was collected in his *Fighting Terms* in 1954. 
Duncan's "My Mother Would be A Falconress" appears in *Bending the Bow*
(1968), though maybe it had an earlier printing somewhere.  

For those who are interested, I see from Amazon that "Dump" is indeed in
Gunn's *Boss Cupid*.  I also see that a reviewer has suggested some
"alternate titles" for this book:  "Boss Age, Boss Loss, Still Horny After
All These Years. . . ."  

Sounds like a must read.

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: "Andrew Epstein" <ade3 at columbia.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
>Date: Sat, Feb 9, 2002, 2:29 PM
>

>For more on Thom Gunn and Robert Duncan -- you might be interested in the
>lead-off poem in Gunn's recent volume *Boss Cupid*, "Duncan," which is a
>moving elegy to Duncan.   (Also, for the record, "Tamer and Hawk" is not in
>Boss Cupid...)
>
>There's also an excerpt from Gunn's critical writings on "My Mother Would Be
>a Falconress" here:
>http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/duncan/falcon.htm
>
>
>Take care,
>Andrew Epstein
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Date: Saturday, February 09, 2002 1:01 AM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn: "Tamer and Hawk"
>
>
>>
>>
>>Rachel Loden wrote:
>>
>>> Wonder whether "Tamer and Hawk" was written partly in response to Robert
>>> Duncan's "My Mother Would Be A Falconress." Gunn would certainly have
>>> known it.
>>
>>Dear Rachel,
>>
>>What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
>>Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
>>idea.
>>
>>Moira Russell
>>Seattle, WA



From rwilsnac  Sat Feb  9 18:34:43 2002
From: rwilsnac (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 15:34:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging and writing
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020209153439.00d127dc@medicine.nodak.edu>

At 12:06 PM 2/9/02 -0800, jcervantes wrote:
>
>--- rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:
>
>>  But what 
>> do poets do when they experience the symptoms of a 
>> decline of inspiration, or when they fear its onset? 
>> Are there any patterns to be observed, or lessons to be 
>> learned? As a working scientist, I get off easy; it is 
>> not so hard to think of unanswered questions (if not 
>> ways to answer them). But for those who depend on finding 
>> swampfire or cello music in the woods, it must often be 
>> a more frightening concern...
>
>Thank you, thank you for supplying swampfire for my heart and cello
>music for my ears.  I will send it to you when it's done - I've already
>pre-heated the oven.
>
>- Jim
>

Actually, Jim, when I dashed those words off too hastily,
I was thinking about the mental state of a male poet if he were
in the mood and spiritual condition better described by 
Lawrence Durrell:

A caf? is the last Museum and best,
To observe a great man in the middle
Of a collapse; but parts work still,
The crutches are incidental, adding variety.
Some injudicious pleasures will remain.
The sexual phosphorescence of youth is gone,
But here on naphtha-scented evenings still
He sits before the tulip of old wine,
In a red fez, by some sunken garden,
Watching for shooting-stars.

(from his Collected Poems, 1931-1974)

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu



From grahamd  Sat Feb  9 17:04:51 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 16:04:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Aging and writing
Message-ID: <200202092203.g19M3Le66449@mx14.mx.voyager.net>

We can all think readily of the usual examples of late-career flowering
(whatever "late") might mean.  Thomas Hardy, W B Yeats, Wallace Stevens, 
Stanley Kunitz, etc.  And now perhaps Czeslaw Milosz--not knowing the
Polish, I'm reluctant to assess the quality of his stupendous output in the
past two decades, though it certainly is voluminous.  

But isn't the incidence of truly great poetry written by the truly old
vanishingly small?  The list of poets who lost steam in various ways as they
aged seems rather lengthy:  Wordsworth, Whitman, Frost, Moore. . . .  

Interesting to speculate about Dickinson, had she survived to old age, but
even she lost considerable oomph after her astonishing flowering in the
1860s, didn't she?  

Others remain controversial:  did William Carlos Williams get better or
worse after 1950?  How about Robert Penn Warren's late work?  Or Lowell's?

Seems every new book that appears by a veteran poet claims it's the best
work yet, or at least among the best.  (Adrienne Rich's latest, for
instance, is so blurbed.)  And no doubt we all have to believe that that's
possible.  

But while I am happy for the recent work of poets like Rich and Levine, to
pick two examples out of a hat, does anyone seriously believe that they are
currently writing at peak form in their 70s?  

As for how I feel about all this, I confess I try not to dwell on it.  Hard
enough to write the next poem, and I'm not particularly concerned about my
place in literary history, since unless the poetry world rapidly comes to
its senses I probably won't have one.  

I wonder if this is more of a problem for poets who actually have audiences?
 You know, those who are able to publish every blurt and bit of ooze from
their journals, and who are told regularly How Great Thou Art. . . . 
Certainly this might explain some poems I've seen, from time to time, in The
New Yorker.

David Graham, closer to the foothills of age than of Parnassus
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


>---------------------------
>
>Judging from recent comments on this list about new
>books by not-so-young poets (such as Bly), the burnout
>does not afflict everyone. My impression is that Yeats
>escaped this curse (though perhaps he did not feel so 
>within himself). Perhaps it is a more common ailment 
>among those of less than galactic creativity. But what 
>do poets do when they experience the symptoms of a 
>decline of inspiration, or when they fear its onset? 
>Are there any patterns to be observed, or lessons to be 
>learned? As a working scientist, I get off easy; it is 
>not so hard to think of unanswered questions (if not 
>ways to answer them). But for those who depend on finding 
>swampfire or cello music in the woods, it must often be 
>a more frightening concern...
>
>Richard W. Wilsnack
>rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
>
> 



From odysseus34  Sat Feb  9 16:27:10 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 14:27:10 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
References: <200202092045.g19KjIh69815@mx8.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3C659427.BF8963EC@earthlink.net>


David Graham wrote:

> Gunn's "Tamer & Hawk" was collected in his *Fighting Terms* in 1954.
> Duncan's "My Mother Would be A Falconress" appears in *Bending the Bow*
> (1968), though maybe it had an earlier printing somewhere.
>
> For those who are interested, I see from Amazon that "Dump" is indeed in
> Gunn's *Boss Cupid*.  I also see that a reviewer has suggested some
> "alternate titles" for this book:  "Boss Age, Boss Loss, Still Horny After
> All These Years. . . ."

Thom Gunn is marvelous, isn't he?  Anyone who writes about motorcycles and black
leather in strict formal verse has my heart.  Seriously though, "The Man with
Night Sweats" is incredible stuff.  Highly recommended.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Sat Feb  9 16:36:12 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 14:36:12 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn: "Tamer and Hawk"
References: <F39Dvn8GI6GfiFqL5Hm00000e12@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C659640.898D7F4C@earthlink.net>

Thom Gunn is something, isn't he?  If you didn't like "Boss Cupid" you might
like "The Man with Night Sweats" -- which IMHO is the best Gunn book ever.
(Which would probably be disappointing for Mr. Gunn to hear as he is no doubt
planning on writing more books and all, but oh well.)

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

dead poet wrote:

> thanks for sharing this. i'm reading gunn's collected poems, and i have to
> say, so far it is one of the books of poetry that i have enjoyed the most.
> it's such an enjoyable read. definitely in my top ten. i've read boss cupid,
> which i didn't like at all, but i knew i liked his work so i had to pick the
> collected poems. i think i'm adding gunn to my favorites list. if you
> haven't read it, you are missing out.
>
> jason
>
> >From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
> >Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 21:39:18 -0700
> >
> >
> >
> >                                 Tamer and Hawk
> >                                  Thom Gunn
> >
> >                                  I thought I was so tough,
> >                                  But gentled at your hands,
> >                                  Cannot be quick enough
> >                                  To fly for you and show
> >                                  That when I go I go
> >                                  At your commands.
> >
> >                                  Even in flight above
> >                                  I am no longer free:
> >                                  You seeled me with your love,
> >                                  I am blind to other birds.
> >                                  The habit of your words
> >                                  Has hooded me.
> >
> >                                  As formerly, I wheel
> >                                  I hover and I twist,
> >                                  But only want the feel,
> >                                  In my possessive thought,
> >                                  Of catcher and of caught
> >                                  Upon your wrist.
> >
> >                                  You but half civilize,
> >                                  Taming me in this way.
> >                                  Through having only eyes
> >                                  For you I fear to lose,
> >                                  I lose to keep, and choose
> >                                  Tamer as prey.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






From wasanthony  Sat Feb  9 19:16:04 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 16:16:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging and writing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020209153439.00d127dc@medicine.nodak.edu>
Message-ID: <20020210001604.54286.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, I'm thinking of several things.  One, where the next
serendipitous impulse for a poem might come from - always on the
lookout for that.  Two, the difference between the biological and
chronological clock vs the creative clock, which aren't necessarily in
lock-step rhythm.  And, finally (as my comp students are wont to
write), wondering whether you intend the Durrell as a perspective from
an observer or a participant, which might be both in the same, but we
know what an observer's participation does to an experiment.

- Jim

--- rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:
> At 12:06 PM 2/9/02 -0800, jcervantes wrote:
> >
> >--- rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:
> >
> >>  But what 
> >> do poets do when they experience the symptoms of a 
> >> decline of inspiration, or when they fear its onset? 
> >> Are there any patterns to be observed, or lessons to be 
> >> learned? As a working scientist, I get off easy; it is 
> >> not so hard to think of unanswered questions (if not 
> >> ways to answer them). But for those who depend on finding 
> >> swampfire or cello music in the woods, it must often be 
> >> a more frightening concern...
> >
> >Thank you, thank you for supplying swampfire for my heart and cello
> >music for my ears.  I will send it to you when it's done - I've
> already
> >pre-heated the oven.
> >
> >- Jim
> >
> 
> Actually, Jim, when I dashed those words off too hastily,
> I was thinking about the mental state of a male poet if he were
> in the mood and spiritual condition better described by 
> Lawrence Durrell:
> 
> A caf? is the last Museum and best,
> To observe a great man in the middle
> Of a collapse; but parts work still,
> The crutches are incidental, adding variety.
> Some injudicious pleasures will remain.
> The sexual phosphorescence of youth is gone,
> But here on naphtha-scented evenings still
> He sits before the tulip of old wine,
> In a red fez, by some sunken garden,
> Watching for shooting-stars.
> 
> (from his Collected Poems, 1931-1974)
> 
> Richard W. Wilsnack
> rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From rloden  Sat Feb  9 21:09:43 2002
From: rloden (Rachel Loden)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:09:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
Message-ID: <001d01c1b1d8$02dbdc20$dd040140@default>

Moira wrote:
 
> Dear Rachel,
> 
> What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections 
> between Gunn and
> Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  

Huge webs of connections, I would think, as northern California poets
over decades and decades, but there's probably someone out there who can
fill in the details better than I can. Alan Golding still on this list?
Ron Silliman?

Would be fun to find Duncan's privately published _Poems from the
Margins of Thom Gunn's Moly_ (1972).

Rachel




From adead_poet  Sun Feb 10 05:16:41 2002
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 04:16:41 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn
Message-ID: <F110DLe3d4J95XBSbDu000018d4@hotmail.com>

well i haven't gotten to the man with night sweats section, but it has all 
been good so far. like i said, i'm really enjoying his collected poems. it's 
especially nice since i have to take a break from the best american poetry 
2001 and jorie graham's selected poems. i don't know why i keep reading 
those two books, maybe because i hope that something good will turn up, but 
no luck yet. still have quite a bit of gunn to go, and i look forward to it.

jason


>From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn: "Tamer and Hawk"
>Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 14:36:12 -0700
>
>Thom Gunn is something, isn't he?  If you didn't like "Boss Cupid" you 
>might
>like "The Man with Night Sweats" -- which IMHO is the best Gunn book ever.
>(Which would probably be disappointing for Mr. Gunn to hear as he is no 
>doubt
>planning on writing more books and all, but oh well.)
>
>Moira Russell
>Seattle, WA
>
>dead poet wrote:
>
> > thanks for sharing this. i'm reading gunn's collected poems, and i have 
>to
> > say, so far it is one of the books of poetry that i have enjoyed the 
>most.
> > it's such an enjoyable read. definitely in my top ten. i've read boss 
>cupid,
> > which i didn't like at all, but i knew i liked his work so i had to pick 
>the
> > collected poems. i think i'm adding gunn to my favorites list. if you
> > haven't read it, you are missing out.
> >
> > jason
> >


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com




From halvard  Sun Feb 10 11:58:19 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:58:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Brecht, "War Has Been Given a Bad Name"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEPIEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

War Has Been Given a Bad Name

I am told that the best people have begun saying 
How, from a moral point of view, the second World War
Fell below the standard of the First. The Wehrmacht
Allegedly deplores the methods by which the SS effected
The extermination of certain peoples. The Ruhr industrialists
Are said to regret the bloody manhunts
Which filled their mines and factories with slave workers. The 
                                                                             intellectuals
So I heard, condemn industry's demand for slave workers
Likewise their unfair treatment. Even the bishops
Dissociate themselves from this way of making war; in short the
                                                                                      feeling
Prevails in every quarter that the Nazis did the Fatherland
A lamentably bad turn, and that war
While in itself natural and necessary, has, thanks to the
Unduly uninhibited and positively inhuman
Way in which it was conducted on this occasion, been
Discredited for some time to come.

--Bertolt Brecht, tr. John Willett


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From Cadaly  Sun Feb 10 18:15:15 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:15:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
Message-ID: <11c.c246e43.29985903@aol.com>

there's a book -- kind of glaring the all maleness of it -- even Everson 
manages to mention women in his (male) archetype...

Bartlett, Lee
THE SUN IS BUT A MORNING STAR - STUDIES IN WEST COAST POETRY AND POETICS
Collection of essays focussing on the works of writers specifically 
identified with the San Francisco Renaissance - Kenneth Rexroth, William 
Everson, Robert Duncan, Gary Snyder, Michael McClure. Essays also on writers 
like Thom Gunn and Nathaniel Tarn, Michael Palmer and Ron Silliman, and the 
attraction of the western ethos, the relationship of West Coast poetry to 
other American poetry, poetic language, more.

Rdgs,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From rwilsnac  Sun Feb 10 22:32:28 2002
From: rwilsnac (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:32:28 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [New Poetry] aging and writing
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020210191601.00683c88@medicine.nodak.edu>

Dear Jim, David, et al.,

I was using the Durrell poem as a means to an end, to try to
think what it might feel like to realize that you are a long
way "over the hill," and that you cannot climb back. I think
that Durrell wants us to play detective or "profiler," to use
the information given to put yourself inside the man sitting
outside in the dark with his "tulip of old wine": could I
find myself there? would I do something like he is doing,
to deal with my sense of time not running out, but having
run past? 

The chronological and creative clocks are surely out of step: 
think of all the professional athletes who continue to play*** 
long after they should have retired. It's more than a desire
for continuing paychecks, and it afflicts more than the great 
ones. In any field, there are all those geniuses who push 
themselves to keep going year after year in the minor leagues
or other obscure places, hoping that they will be discovered 
before it is too late. They all keep trying to climb back up 
because that is the only way they know how to cope. Which is 
a sad solution, even if Camus would approve.

Regarding poetry more particularly, I have been wondering
what the good or brave alternatives are for poets who find
that like drivers on long empty highways at night, the 
serendipitous stimulus, the radio music amid all the static, 
gets harder and harder to find, so that they have to listen 
more and more strenuously and hoard every signal they can find. 
(Or like the gentleman in the sunken garden, watch for every 
shooting star.) Is there something that poets can do better 
than trying to write the way they used to write when it is 
long too late to do just that any more?

I went looking for other wiser thoughts about this, and
fairly soon I stumbled on someone's online discussion for
students about Yeats' "The Circus Animals' Desertion,"
written in the late 1930's (his 70's?), which begins, 

         I SOUGHT a theme and sought for it in vain,
            I sought it daily for six weeks or so.
         Maybe at last, being but a broken man,
            I must be satisfied with my heart, although
         Winter and summer till old age began
            My circus animals were all on show,
         Those stilted boys, that burnished chariot,
            Lion and woman and the Lord knows what.

         What can I but enumerate old themes?

My impression is that Yeats' solution was to turn his
problems of creativity into his poetry. Even in Sailing
to Byzantium. But maybe a better solution for mere-mortal
but no-longer-feeling creative poets is to put themselves 
less and less into themselves and more and more into the 
lives of other, very different people, if there is a way 
to build up one's empathic fitness (an emotional treadmill?) 
at an advanced stage of one's literary life. Much like the
person crossing the brick bridge, imagining the builder
kneeling, counting his bricks. 

For any better insight at this point I am dependent on the 
kindness of poets... 

...but feeling a little smug about my courage, since I'm
a little farther up into the foothills of age than David.

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu    

***P. S. Please don't anyone suggest that competitive athletics 
is not creative, if you have ever tried to judge where to throw 
the pass or where the ball if going to fly, and how you are going
to get yourself to the right place at the right time. It's
emphatically not just reflexes and training. Willie Mays running 
out from under his hat to catch that deep fly over his shoulder 
in the '54 series is a classic, enduring work of its own kind of 
art. That's one of the reasons why the poem that David shared 
about Mickey Mantle is go good.



From DICK  Sun Feb 10 21:07:48 2002
From: DICK (DICK at watson.ibm.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 21:07:48 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins (again)
Message-ID: <200202110213.g1B2DrK34190@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com>

Interesting review in the latest NY Review of Books of Billy Collins'
latest, and James Tates' latest, by Charles Simic.  I wouldn't have
imagined putting those two together in one review, but Simic pulls it
off quite convincingly.  It's a very well written, informative piece.

Richard



From grahamd  Sun Feb 10 21:59:23 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:59:23 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins & Simic
Message-ID: <200202110257.g1B2vkm68829@mx14.mx.voyager.net>

Richard, would you care to say more about what Simic's take on Collins &
Tate might be?  I was interested to read, in a recent interview with
Collins, that at one point he read a good deal of Charles Simic whenever he
wanted to get in the right mood to write.  I wouldn't have paired the two,
myself.  

I've been reading a bit of Simic lately, after some years of not paying
close attention.  Wondering why I have tended to lose interest in his work,
even though whenever I pick up a book, there are always poems I like.  It
probably has something to do with our "aging" thread.  For while Simic's
hardly a true ancient yet, he does seem to have settled on a firm style and
his particular set of themes a rather long while ago.  I, for one, have some
trouble telling his books apart.  

And:  would any Simic fans care to point me to the best of his most recent
work?  I think the most recent one I own is *Hotel Insomnia*, which I
suddenly realize is a decade old. . . .

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: DICK at watson.ibm.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins (again)
>Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002, 8:07 PM
>

>Interesting review in the latest NY Review of Books of Billy Collins'
>latest, and James Tates' latest, by Charles Simic.  I wouldn't have
>imagined putting those two together in one review, but Simic pulls it
>off quite convincingly.  It's a very well written, informative piece.
>
>Richard



From JforJames  Mon Feb 11 09:15:53 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:15:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
Message-ID: <37.22a1968d.29992c19@aol.com>

Friday February 1 3:15 PM ET 
Maya Angelou Launches Hallmark Line
By KAREN MATTHEWS, Associated Press Writer 

NEW YORK (AP) - Hallmark: Birthday cards and wedding cards, friendship, 
graduation and get well messages, too. 

Maya Angelou: friend of Billie Holiday and Martin Luther King, celebrated 
poet who read at President Clinton (news - web sites)'s first inauguration, 
author of the classic memoir ``I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.'' 

And now Hallmark's in-house poet. 

In a once-unthinkable collaboration, Angelou has teamed up with the greeting 
card giant. Overcoming initial reservations that she was trivializing 
herself, she has agreed to develop a line of greeting cards and gifts. 

At least one of Angelou's colleagues is appalled at the idea. 

``I think it's preposterous,'' said Billy Collins, the poet laureate of the 
United States and a fellow Random House author. 

``It lowers the understanding of what poetry actually can do,'' Collins said. 
``Hallmark cards has always been a common phrase to describe verse that is 
really less than poetry because it is sentimental and unoriginal. ... I just 
think it's surprising that she would market herself in that direction.'' 

At first, Angelou was cool to the idea. But after meeting with executives of 
the Kansas City, Mo.-based company, she warmed. 

``They were white and black, and they were women and Spanish speaking. That 
pleased me, obviously. ... So I listened,'' Angelou said in an interview at 
her flower-filled upper West Side pied-a-terre. The 73-year-old 
poet-writer-professor-actress-director-singer lives mostly in North Carolina 
and also has a home in Atlanta. 

Then she went to her editor at Random House with the proposal. 

``I said, 'I'm thinking about doing something with Hallmark.' And he said, 
'You're the people's poet. You don't want to trivialize yourself.' So I said 
OK and I hung up. And then I thought about it. And I thought, if I'm the 
people's poet then I ought to be in the people's hands - and I hope in their 
hearts. So I thought, 'Hmm, I'll do it.''' 

The Maya Angelou Life Mosaic Collection has been in stores since just after 
Christmas. It includes 104 greeting cards and assorted bookends, photo 
frames, coffee mugs and other gift items. The cards start at $2.49 and the 
gift items range in price from $19.99 to $49.99. 

Many of the messages inscribed in the cards and other products are condensed 
versions of essays from Angelou's books. They treat themes such as love and 
friendship. 

A typical sentiment is, ``We are more alike, my friends, than we are 
unalike.'' A ceramic ``thankful vase'' is captioned, ``Be present in all 
things and thankful for all things.'' 

A wedding card reads: ``Batten down the hatches, secure the rigging. You and 
your beloved are about to sail on the river of dreams. You are wished fair 
weather and fresh wind ... and always love. Congratulations on your 
marriage.'' 

Hallmark would not divulge what it had paid Angelou. However, Paul Barker, 
senior vice president for creative development at Hallmark, said, ``Retailers 
are very positive about how well it is moving.'' 

To develop the line, Hallmark staff met with Angelou in her home. 

``Sometimes they stayed overnight,'' she said. ``And I cooked for people, and 
we sat and talked. And that's how the line has really been developed. By 
talk. Telling stories. Anecdotes.'' 

Barker said additional products including Christmas and Mother's Day cards 
are planned for the future. 

Angelou, meanwhile, is busy with other projects. She is on the faculty at 
Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, N.C., where this spring she will 
teach a master class on ``World Poetry in Dramatic Performance.'' She'll also 
direct her second film, an adaptation for Showtime of Bebe Moore Campbell's 
``Singing in the Comeback Choir.'' 

And she has a new book coming out in April, ``A Song Flung Up to Heaven,'' 
the sixth and, she insists, the last of her autobiographical works. The first 
appeared in 1970. 

``It takes me exactly to the beginning of writing 'Caged Bird,''' she said. 
``And I refuse to write about writing. It would be the biggest bore in 
life.'' 



From wasanthony  Mon Feb 11 09:33:25 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 06:33:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
In-Reply-To: <37.22a1968d.29992c19@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020211143325.11686.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com>

So now we have the Martha Stewart of poetry.  But, hey, she's cornered
the mall market.

- Jim

--- JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Friday February 1 3:15 PM ET 
> Maya Angelou Launches Hallmark Line
> By KAREN MATTHEWS, Associated Press Writer 
> 
> NEW YORK (AP) - Hallmark: Birthday cards and wedding cards,
> friendship, 
> graduation and get well messages, too. 
> 
> Maya Angelou: friend of Billie Holiday and Martin Luther King,


=====
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>

Readings: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/readings.html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From halvard  Mon Feb 11 10:02:58 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:02:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: besmilr brigham, "Heaved from the Earth"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEAJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

                     
           

                   Heaved from the Earth                     

                   after the tornado, a dead moccasin
                   nailed to the pole 
                   boards scattered across a pasture 

                   lying fierce crosses 
                   jagged in mud 

                   had flung itself 
                   nail and wood 
                   the square-head animal 
                   hurled also in air 

                   or as it raced in weeds 
                   )water flowing, water falling 
                   impaled 
                             both the snake and timber 
                   went flying through the wind 

                   coiled, made a coil (they do 
                   immediately from danger or when hurt 
                   and died in a coil 
                   bit itself 
                   in pain of its own defense the poison 

                                              birds
                                              hurled into yard
                                              fences
                                              one with feet tangled gripping
                                              the open wire, a big Jay

                   struggling from the water 
                   throwing its fanged head
                   high at the lightning, silent 
                   in all that thunder 

                   to die by its own mouth 
                   pushing the fire thorns in 
                   
                               --besmilr brigham


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html 



From JforJames  Mon Feb 11 10:14:21 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:14:21 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Academy's New Boss: Tree Swenson
Message-ID: <178.36c5649.299939cd@aol.com>

February 8, 2002
Poetry Academy, After Budget Uproar, Gets New Chief

By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

he Academy of American Poets yesterday named Tree Swenson its executive 
director, succeeding William Wadsworth, whose departure after a dispute with 
the organization's board last fall provoked angry protests from some 
prominent poets.

Ms. Swenson, 50, is the director of programs for the Massachusetts Cultural 
Council. From 1972 to 1992, she was co-founder, executive director and 
publisher of Copper Canyon Press in Port Townsend, Wash., which became an 
important nonprofit poetry publisher. Copper Canyon published the work of 
poets including the Nobel Prize winners Pablo Neruda and Vicente Aleixandre. 
It also published Lucille Clifton, a member of the panel of poets that 
advised the academy's board.

Mr. Wadsworth, a published poet and former wine-marketing consultant, was the 
executive director for 12 years and won praise from many academy members for 
publicizing poets and poetry with programs like National Poetry Month and an 
elaborate Web site (www.poets.org). 

But the academy's programs also grew expensive, and when the recession 
cramped fund-raising efforts Mr. Wadsworth clashed with the board over how to 
reconcile costs and revenues. After his resignation, the academy dismissed 8 
of its 17 employees.

  Web Site
www.poets.org
 
Ms. Swenson said she planned to continue Mr. Wadsworth's efforts to raise 
poetry's profile while also keeping a close eye on the academy's budget.

"Bill was very highly regarded in the poetry world, and I am one of the 
people who think that he accomplished a lot in his time there," she said.

She is to start her new position on April 1, the beginning of National Poetry 
Month.

Separately, Paul Gottlieb, 67, a vice chairman of the French Groupe de la 
Martini?re, was named chairman of the academy's board, succeeding Jonathan 
Galassi. 




From tadrichards  Mon Feb 11 11:09:30 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:09:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
References: <37.22a1968d.29992c19@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c1b316$7d496920$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

This strikes me as a marriage made in heaven.


Tad



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 9:15 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry


> Friday February 1 3:15 PM ET
> Maya Angelou Launches Hallmark Line
> By KAREN MATTHEWS, Associated Press Writer
>
> NEW YORK (AP) - Hallmark: Birthday cards and wedding cards, friendship,
> graduation and get well messages, too.
>
> Maya Angelou: friend of Billie Holiday and Martin Luther King, celebrated
> poet who read at President Clinton (news - web sites)'s first
inauguration,
> author of the classic memoir ``I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.''
>
> And now Hallmark's in-house poet.
>
> In a once-unthinkable collaboration, Angelou has teamed up with the
greeting
> card giant. Overcoming initial reservations that she was trivializing
> herself, she has agreed to develop a line of greeting cards and gifts.
>
> At least one of Angelou's colleagues is appalled at the idea.
>
> ``I think it's preposterous,'' said Billy Collins, the poet laureate of
the
> United States and a fellow Random House author.
>
> ``It lowers the understanding of what poetry actually can do,'' Collins
said.
> ``Hallmark cards has always been a common phrase to describe verse that is
> really less than poetry because it is sentimental and unoriginal. ... I
just
> think it's surprising that she would market herself in that direction.''
>
> At first, Angelou was cool to the idea. But after meeting with executives
of
> the Kansas City, Mo.-based company, she warmed.
>
> ``They were white and black, and they were women and Spanish speaking.
That
> pleased me, obviously. ... So I listened,'' Angelou said in an interview
at
> her flower-filled upper West Side pied-a-terre. The 73-year-old
> poet-writer-professor-actress-director-singer lives mostly in North
Carolina
> and also has a home in Atlanta.
>
> Then she went to her editor at Random House with the proposal.
>
> ``I said, 'I'm thinking about doing something with Hallmark.' And he said,
> 'You're the people's poet. You don't want to trivialize yourself.' So I
said
> OK and I hung up. And then I thought about it. And I thought, if I'm the
> people's poet then I ought to be in the people's hands - and I hope in
their
> hearts. So I thought, 'Hmm, I'll do it.'''
>
> The Maya Angelou Life Mosaic Collection has been in stores since just
after
> Christmas. It includes 104 greeting cards and assorted bookends, photo
> frames, coffee mugs and other gift items. The cards start at $2.49 and the
> gift items range in price from $19.99 to $49.99.
>
> Many of the messages inscribed in the cards and other products are
condensed
> versions of essays from Angelou's books. They treat themes such as love
and
> friendship.
>
> A typical sentiment is, ``We are more alike, my friends, than we are
> unalike.'' A ceramic ``thankful vase'' is captioned, ``Be present in all
> things and thankful for all things.''
>
> A wedding card reads: ``Batten down the hatches, secure the rigging. You
and
> your beloved are about to sail on the river of dreams. You are wished fair
> weather and fresh wind ... and always love. Congratulations on your
> marriage.''
>
> Hallmark would not divulge what it had paid Angelou. However, Paul Barker,
> senior vice president for creative development at Hallmark, said,
``Retailers
> are very positive about how well it is moving.''
>
> To develop the line, Hallmark staff met with Angelou in her home.
>
> ``Sometimes they stayed overnight,'' she said. ``And I cooked for people,
and
> we sat and talked. And that's how the line has really been developed. By
> talk. Telling stories. Anecdotes.''
>
> Barker said additional products including Christmas and Mother's Day cards
> are planned for the future.
>
> Angelou, meanwhile, is busy with other projects. She is on the faculty at
> Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, N.C., where this spring she will
> teach a master class on ``World Poetry in Dramatic Performance.'' She'll
also
> direct her second film, an adaptation for Showtime of Bebe Moore
Campbell's
> ``Singing in the Comeback Choir.''
>
> And she has a new book coming out in April, ``A Song Flung Up to Heaven,''
> the sixth and, she insists, the last of her autobiographical works. The
first
> appeared in 1970.
>
> ``It takes me exactly to the beginning of writing 'Caged Bird,''' she
said.
> ``And I refuse to write about writing. It would be the biggest bore in
> life.''
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From rkubie  Mon Feb 11 11:13:51 2002
From: rkubie (Rachel Kubie)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:13:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anamnesis Press (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.43.0202111113430.8685-100000@mail.pratt.lib.md.us>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:43:22 -0600
From: Marilyn L. Taylor <mlt at CSD.UWM.EDU>
Reply-To: Discussion of Women's Poetry List <WOM-PO at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
To: WOM-PO at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Anamnesis Press

Hello, Wom-pos--

It's my sad duty to report that Keith Allen Daniels, editor, publisher,
and moving spirit behind Anamnesis Press, died of cancer on the 18th of
December, 2001.  He was 45 years old.  I spoke to his widow, Toni
Daniels, this morning, and she feels she has no choice other than to
cease operations at the press, and to return all submissions to the 2002
Anamnesis Press Chapbook competition.

Keith was devoted to the art of poetry, and, like so many stalwarts in
the tattered army of small press publishers, committed to the concept of
bringing it to the attention of as many readers as possible.  He will be
much missed.

Marilyn Taylor
--
Marilyn L. Taylor
mlt at csd.uwm.edu   http://www.uwm.edu/~mlt/




From tadrichards  Mon Feb 11 11:12:35 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:12:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: besmilr brigham, "Heaved from the Earth"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEAJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002101c1b316$eb38b8a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Hal -- you continue to introduce me to voices I hadn't heard before, and am
the better for having heard now.

Tad



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 10:02 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: besmilr brigham, "Heaved from the
Earth"


>
>
>
>
>                    Heaved from the Earth
>
>                    after the tornado, a dead moccasin
>                    nailed to the pole
>                    boards scattered across a pasture
>
>                    lying fierce crosses
>                    jagged in mud
>
>                    had flung itself
>                    nail and wood
>                    the square-head animal
>                    hurled also in air
>
>                    or as it raced in weeds
>                    )water flowing, water falling
>                    impaled
>                              both the snake and timber
>                    went flying through the wind
>
>                    coiled, made a coil (they do
>                    immediately from danger or when hurt
>                    and died in a coil
>                    bit itself
>                    in pain of its own defense the poison
>
>                                               birds
>                                               hurled into yard
>                                               fences
>                                               one with feet tangled
gripping
>                                               the open wire, a big Jay
>
>                    struggling from the water
>                    throwing its fanged head
>                    high at the lightning, silent
>                    in all that thunder
>
>                    to die by its own mouth
>                    pushing the fire thorns in
>
>                                --besmilr brigham
>
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Mon Feb 11 11:40:51 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:40:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: besmilr brigham, "Heaved from the Earth"
In-Reply-To: <002101c1b316$eb38b8a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEAPEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Thanks, Tad. Besmilr Brigham (she preferred lower case) died a year ago
last October after a longish stint of Alzheimer's. She didn't live to see
her new collection out from Lost Roads Press in Barrington, RI. I haven't
seen it yet, but will soon be ordering it from Serendipity. Don't know why,
but it doesn't seem to be available via Amazon or BN. "Heaved from the
Earth," btw, was the title poem of her Knopf collection back in '71. 

Somewhere on this machine is an obit that Besmilr's daughter Heloise
(wife of the poet Keith Wilson) wrote for a Las Cruces, New Mexico,
newspaper. I'll send that along to anyone who wants it.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


{    Hal -- you continue to introduce me to voices I hadn't heard before, and am
{    the better for having heard now.
{    
{    Tad
{    
{    
{    
{    Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
{    at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
{    
{    
{    ----- Original Message -----
{    From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
{    To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
{    Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 10:02 AM
{    Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: besmilr brigham, "Heaved from the
{    Earth"
{    
{    
{    >
{    >
{    >
{    >
{    >                    Heaved from the Earth
{    >
{    >                    after the tornado, a dead moccasin
{    >                    nailed to the pole
{    >                    boards scattered across a pasture
{    >
{    >                    lying fierce crosses
{    >                    jagged in mud
{    >
{    >                    had flung itself
{    >                    nail and wood
{    >                    the square-head animal
{    >                    hurled also in air
{    >
{    >                    or as it raced in weeds
{    >                    )water flowing, water falling
{    >                    impaled
{    >                              both the snake and timber
{    >                    went flying through the wind
{    >
{    >                    coiled, made a coil (they do
{    >                    immediately from danger or when hurt
{    >                    and died in a coil
{    >                    bit itself
{    >                    in pain of its own defense the poison
{    >
{    >                                               birds
{    >                                               hurled into yard
{    >                                               fences
{    >                                               one with feet tangled
{    gripping
{    >                                               the open wire, a big Jay
{    >
{    >                    struggling from the water
{    >                    throwing its fanged head
{    >                    high at the lightning, silent
{    >                    in all that thunder
{    >
{    >                    to die by its own mouth
{    >                    pushing the fire thorns in
{    >
{    >                                --besmilr brigham
{    >
{    >
{    > Hal
{    >
{    > Halvard Johnson
{    > ===============
{    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    



From halvard  Mon Feb 11 13:37:22 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:37:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Tate, "Teaching the Ape to Write Poems"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEBDEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Teaching the Ape to Write Poems

They didn't have much trouble
teaching the ape to write poems:
first they strapped him into the chair,
then tied the pencil around his hand
(the paper had already been nailed down).
Then Dr. Bluespire leaned over his shoulder
and whispered into his ear:
"You look like a god sitting there.
Why don't you try writing something?"

--James Tate


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From Rsgwynn1  Mon Feb 11 15:16:11 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:16:11 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Tate, "Teaching the Ape to Write Poems"
Message-ID: <85.1743c557.2999808b@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/11/2002 12:38:21 PM Central Standard Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:


> Teaching the Ape to Write Poems
> 
> They didn't have much trouble
> teaching the ape to write poems:
> first they strapped him into the chair,
> then tied the pencil around his hand
> (the paper had already been nailed down).
> Then Dr. Bluespire leaned over his shoulder
> and whispered into his ear:
> "You look like a god sitting there.
> Why don't you try writing something?"
> 
> --James Tate
> 
> 
> Hal
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> 

This is the Tate poem I used on Poetry: A Pocket Anthology.  One of my 
favorites.
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From gmcvay  Mon Feb 11 15:21:40 2002
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:21:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Tate, "Teaching the Ape to
 Write Poems"
In-Reply-To: <85.1743c557.2999808b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202111519430.10672-100000@adams.patriot.net>

I have to admit I prefer Russell Edson on apes. I'm at work and away from
my large, dusty library, but the one about the man who spills coffee on
his ape, which peeps and whistles in response, comes to mind. Or the woman
cooking ape for dinner.

Gwyn (ape-eon at work but well-read)

---
"We share half our genome with the banana. This is more evident in some of my
acquaintances than others."
Sir Robert May, President of the Royal Society of London





From bobgrumman  Mon Feb 11 15:28:50 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:28:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
References: <37.22a1968d.29992c19@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1b33a$b7ce24e0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

Is it permissible to accuse Billy Collins of sour grapes?

I think being Hallmark's first inhouse-poet is better than being
the U.S. Poet Laureate, myself.  It's certainly no step down for Angelou.

                                                                  --Bob G.

Ooops, and I was going to post nothing but nice this year!


> Friday February 1 3:15 PM ET
> Maya Angelou Launches Hallmark Line
> By KAREN MATTHEWS, Associated Press Writer
>
> NEW YORK (AP) - Hallmark: Birthday cards and wedding cards, friendship,
> graduation and get well messages, too.
>
> Maya Angelou: friend of Billie Holiday and Martin Luther King, celebrated
> poet who read at President Clinton (news - web sites)'s first
inauguration,
> author of the classic memoir ``I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.''
>
> And now Hallmark's in-house poet.
>
> In a once-unthinkable collaboration, Angelou has teamed up with the
greeting
> card giant. Overcoming initial reservations that she was trivializing
> herself, she has agreed to develop a line of greeting cards and gifts.
>
> At least one of Angelou's colleagues is appalled at the idea.
>
> ``I think it's preposterous,'' said Billy Collins, the poet laureate of
the
> United States and a fellow Random House author.
>
> ``It lowers the understanding of what poetry actually can do,'' Collins
said.
> ``Hallmark cards has always been a common phrase to describe verse that is
> really less than poetry because it is sentimental and unoriginal. ... I
just
> think it's surprising that she would market herself in that direction.''
>
> At first, Angelou was cool to the idea. But after meeting with executives
of
> the Kansas City, Mo.-based company, she warmed.
>
> ``They were white and black, and they were women and Spanish speaking.
That
> pleased me, obviously. ... So I listened,'' Angelou said in an interview
at
> her flower-filled upper West Side pied-a-terre. The 73-year-old
> poet-writer-professor-actress-director-singer lives mostly in North
Carolina
> and also has a home in Atlanta.
>
> Then she went to her editor at Random House with the proposal.
>
> ``I said, 'I'm thinking about doing something with Hallmark.' And he said,
> 'You're the people's poet. You don't want to trivialize yourself.' So I
said
> OK and I hung up. And then I thought about it. And I thought, if I'm the
> people's poet then I ought to be in the people's hands - and I hope in
their
> hearts. So I thought, 'Hmm, I'll do it.'''
>
> The Maya Angelou Life Mosaic Collection has been in stores since just
after
> Christmas. It includes 104 greeting cards and assorted bookends, photo
> frames, coffee mugs and other gift items. The cards start at $2.49 and the
> gift items range in price from $19.99 to $49.99.
>
> Many of the messages inscribed in the cards and other products are
condensed
> versions of essays from Angelou's books. They treat themes such as love
and
> friendship.
>
> A typical sentiment is, ``We are more alike, my friends, than we are
> unalike.'' A ceramic ``thankful vase'' is captioned, ``Be present in all
> things and thankful for all things.''
>
> A wedding card reads: ``Batten down the hatches, secure the rigging. You
and
> your beloved are about to sail on the river of dreams. You are wished fair
> weather and fresh wind ... and always love. Congratulations on your
> marriage.''
>
> Hallmark would not divulge what it had paid Angelou. However, Paul Barker,
> senior vice president for creative development at Hallmark, said,
``Retailers
> are very positive about how well it is moving.''
>
> To develop the line, Hallmark staff met with Angelou in her home.
>
> ``Sometimes they stayed overnight,'' she said. ``And I cooked for people,
and
> we sat and talked. And that's how the line has really been developed. By
> talk. Telling stories. Anecdotes.''
>
> Barker said additional products including Christmas and Mother's Day cards
> are planned for the future.
>
> Angelou, meanwhile, is busy with other projects. She is on the faculty at
> Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, N.C., where this spring she will
> teach a master class on ``World Poetry in Dramatic Performance.'' She'll
also
> direct her second film, an adaptation for Showtime of Bebe Moore
Campbell's
> ``Singing in the Comeback Choir.''
>
> And she has a new book coming out in April, ``A Song Flung Up to Heaven,''
> the sixth and, she insists, the last of her autobiographical works. The
first
> appeared in 1970.
>
> ``It takes me exactly to the beginning of writing 'Caged Bird,''' she
said.
> ``And I refuse to write about writing. It would be the biggest bore in
life.''





From Rsgwynn1  Mon Feb 11 16:14:00 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:14:00 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
Message-ID: <c8.223b277e.29998e18@cs.com>

A sample of Angelou's cards and gifts can be found at

http://www.hallmark.com/Website/hk_collections.html?lid=GND2
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From halvard  Mon Feb 11 16:29:12 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:29:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Tate, "Teaching the Ape toWrite Poems"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202111519430.10672-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEBIEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Ah, well, if it's apes you're into, I'd suggest Desmond Morris.

Hal           "For me the Internet . . . is like the Congo.
                 I know it exists, but I will never go there."
                                  --Harold Bloom
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


{    I have to admit I prefer Russell Edson on apes. I'm at work and away from
{    my large, dusty library, but the one about the man who spills coffee on
{    his ape, which peeps and whistles in response, comes to mind. Or the woman
{    cooking ape for dinner.
{    
{    Gwyn (ape-eon at work but well-read)




From JforJames  Mon Feb 11 17:31:59 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:31:59 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NewPoetry's First Anniversary
Message-ID: <124.bab21da.2999a05f@aol.com>

Today is the first anniversary of this list. (Which rose from the dissipating
electrons of what was once CAP-L.) Whether you're a lurker, an occasional
poster or an active participant, I want to thank you for being a part 
of the list. Also, thanks for keeping the spirit of the discussion
respectful and the list free of acrimony...that makes my life easier.
I also want to acknowledge the help of our Contributing Correspondents: 
David Graham, Tad Richards, James Cervantes, Paul Lake, Jeff Newberry, 
and Halvard Johnson. They're job is to help keep the discussion percolating. 
(We lost a few CCs along the way. If you'd like to sign on as a CC, 
please contact me backchannel. No pay...but light duty.) 

If you know of anyone who might be interested in joining NewPoetry, 
please forward the informational message below.
Jim Finnegan
----
NEW-POETY LIST
Contemporary Poetry News & Views

If you crave thoughtful conversation about contemporary poetry, you should 
join 
the NewPoetry List. Founded early in 2001, this list has nearly 200 members 
(poets &/or readers interested in contemporary poetry).

The NewPoetry List welcomes:

Book Publication Announcements
Book Reviews (in full or excerpted)
LitMag (Web/Print) New Issue Announcements
Calls for Submissions 
Award Announcements
Open Letters
Shop Talk
Poems 
& your Remarks?

The list has a Digest Option for those who like to have the individual 
list messages (posts) aggregated into a single email message.

Archives available at: 
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/

Subscribe (free) at:
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Questions or problems, contact:
JforJames at aol.com



From odysseus34  Mon Feb 11 21:01:47 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:01:47 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
References: <37.22a1968d.29992c19@aol.com> <001001c1b33a$b7ce24e0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>
Message-ID: <3C687788.88954891@earthlink.net>


Bob Grumman wrote:

> Is it permissible to accuse Billy Collins of sour grapes?
>
> I think being Hallmark's first inhouse-poet is better than being
> the U.S. Poet Laureate, myself.  It's certainly no step down for Angelou.

One could indeed argue that by being Hallmark's Poet she is now a sort of
unofficial US Poet Laureate.  Surely far more people will now read her poems
than Billy's.  That is, one could argue this, but I would not, because like Bob
I say nothing but nice things.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Mon Feb 11 22:19:03 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:19:03 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] NewPoetry's First Anniversary
References: <124.bab21da.2999a05f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C68899C.4A64D3AB@earthlink.net>


JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Today is the first anniversary of this list. (Which rose from the dissipating
> electrons of what was once CAP-L.) Whether you're a lurker, an occasional
> poster or an active participant, I want to thank you for being a part
> of the list.

And Jim shouldn't have to say this himself, so I'll say it:  thank _you,_ Jim,
for providing such an eclectic, free-wheeling and continually interesting
forum.  It's a great thing to see so many different poetic "types" gathered
together on one list.  New-Po may be many things, but dull isn't one of them.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From halvard  Mon Feb 11 23:21:08 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:21:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NewPoetry's First Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <124.bab21da.2999a05f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEBNEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

   
{    Today is the first anniversary of this list. 

Many happy returns!

Hal           "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy."
                                  --Robert Ashley

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From grahamd  Mon Feb 11 23:58:47 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:58:47 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ape
Message-ID: <200202120458.g1C4wYY43396@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

Ape


You haven't finished your ape, said mother to father, who had monkey hair
and blood on his whiskers.

I've had enough monkey, cried father.

You didn't eat the hands, and I went to all the trouble to make onion rings
for its fingers, said mother.

I'll just nibble on its forehead, and then I've had enough, said father.

I stuffed its nose with garlic, just like you like it, said mother.

Why don't you have the butcher cut these apes up? You lay the whole thing on
the table every night; the same fractured skull, the same singed fur; like
someone who died horribly. These aren't dinners, these are post-mortem
dissections.

Try a piece of its gum, I've stuffed its mouth with bread, said mother.

Ugh, it looks like a mouth full of vomit. How can I bite into its cheek with
bread spilling out of its mouth? cried father.

Break one of the ears off, they're so crispy, said mother.

I wish to hell you'd put underpants on these apes; even a jockstrap,
screamed father.

Father, how dare you insinuate that I see the ape as anything more thn
simple meat, screamed mother. 

Well what's with this ribbon tied in a bow on its privates? screamed father.

Are you saying that I am in love with this vicious creature? That I would
submit my female opening to this brute? That after we had love on the
kitchen floor I would put him in the oven, after breaking his head with a
frying pan; and then serve him to my husband, that my husband might eat the
evidence of my infidelity . . . ?

I'm just saying that I'm damn sick of ape every night, cried father.

--Russell Edson, 1976 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay at patriot.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Tate, "Teaching the Ape to
Write Poems"
>Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2002, 2:21 PM
>

>I have to admit I prefer Russell Edson on apes. I'm at work and away from
>my large, dusty library, but the one about the man who spills coffee on
>his ape, which peeps and whistles in response, comes to mind. Or the woman
>cooking ape for dinner.
>
>Gwyn (ape-eon at work but well-read)



From tadrichards  Tue Feb 12 01:18:47 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:18:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
References: <c8.223b277e.29998e18@cs.com>
Message-ID: <004301c1b38d$2275f140$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>


  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 4:14 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry


  A sample of Angelou's cards and gifts can be found at 

  http://www.hallmark.com/Website/hk_collections.html?lid=GND2 



  Good lord.

  Tad
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From JforJames  Tue Feb 12 09:30:49 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:30:49 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
Message-ID: <14c.8cc1e0c.299a8119@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/11/02 4:15:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes:

> http://www.hallmark.com/Website/hk_collections.html?lid=GND2
>  
>  
>  A sample of Angelou's cards and gifts can be found at

A collaboration with Thomas Kinkade surely is on the shining horizon.
Finnegan



From paul.lake  Tue Feb 12 11:57:46 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:57:46 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
In-Reply-To: <3C64AD3F.68B1D394@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B88EA5AA.2643%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/8/02 11:02 PM, odysseus34 at odysseus34 at earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> 
> Rachel Loden wrote:
> 
>> Wonder whether "Tamer and Hawk" was written partly in response to Robert
>> Duncan's "My Mother Would Be A Falconress." Gunn would certainly have
>> known it.
> 
> Dear Rachel,
> 
> What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
> Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
> idea.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Yes, they know each other.  When I was living in SF in the early 80's I saw
them talking on several occasions.

Paul Lake




From GrahamD  Tue Feb 12 13:41:10 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:41:10 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Hallmarketing Poetry
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D03@mail.ripon.edu>

I think far more people have been reading Angelou than Collins for some time
now, just as more read Edgar Guest than Robert Frost.

I'm just surprised at Collins's frankness at saying aloud what most poets
think.  Kind of interesting to have a poet laureate willing to be cranky in
public, isn't it?

I guess he could have pushed it one step further, and noted that Angelou's
pre-Hallmark verse is, well, rather Hallmarky.  

David Graham

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================

> ----------
> From: 	odysseus34
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Monday, February 11, 2002 8:01 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> > Is it permissible to accuse Billy Collins of sour grapes?
> >
> > I think being Hallmark's first inhouse-poet is better than being
> > the U.S. Poet Laureate, myself.  It's certainly no step down for
> Angelou.
> 
> One could indeed argue that by being Hallmark's Poet she is now a sort of
> unofficial US Poet Laureate.  Surely far more people will now read her
> poems
> than Billy's.  That is, one could argue this, but I would not, because
> like Bob
> I say nothing but nice things.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 



From DICK  Tue Feb 12 13:55:22 2002
From: DICK (DICK at watson.ibm.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 02 13:55:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
Message-ID: <200202121903.g1CJ3cK36188@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com>

I find it inconceivable that Collins' comments about
Maya Angelou's appointment at Hallmark comes from
sour grapes.  He surely doesn't need the money -
nor, _pace_ Moira Russell, the exposure.

Collins seems to be of the rare type who says what he
thinks rather than the expected, or the politic.

Richard



From paul.lake  Tue Feb 12 14:27:01 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:27:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Reviews
Message-ID: <B88EC8A5.2649%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I don't remember seeing this cite mentioned on this list before, so here's a
website that specializes in poetry reviews and articles.

http://www.cprw.com/


Paul Lake




From languagethief  Tue Feb 12 15:27:42 2002
From: languagethief (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:27:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
In-Reply-To: <200202121903.g1CJ3cK36188@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <20020212202742.47396.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com>

Re "sour grapes" ... do any of us really envy Angelou
this gig? Sure, the money would be nice, but if I want
to get into envy, I can find other people who have
turned their poetic gifts into big bucks. Lou Reed,
for example. James Dickey. 




--- DICK at watson.ibm.com wrote:
> I find it inconceivable that Collins' comments about
> Maya Angelou's appointment at Hallmark comes from
> sour grapes.  He surely doesn't need the money -
> nor, _pace_ Moira Russell, the exposure.
> 
> Collins seems to be of the rare type who says what
> he
> thinks rather than the expected, or the politic.
> 
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From bobgrumman  Tue Feb 12 16:01:03 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:01:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <200202121903.g1CJ3cK36188@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <003001c1b408$67839820$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

> I find it inconceivable that Collins' comments about
> Maya Angelou's appointment at Hallmark comes from
> sour grapes.  He surely doesn't need the money -
> nor, _pace_ Moira Russell, the exposure.
>
> Collins seems to be of the rare type who says what he
> thinks rather than the expected, or the politic.
>
> Richard

I was being ironic, remembering how some who belittled Collins
the way he belittled Angelou were accused of sour grapes.

                                                                     --Bob
G.














From bobgrumman  Tue Feb 12 18:55:12 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:55:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] To Celebrate New-Poetry's First Anniversary
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86CCC@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <004d01c1b420$b6bd58a0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

I applaud James for keeping this discussion group aloft
for a full year.  Considering how much seems to have been
said at it, I thought it'd been going a lot longer.  I've learned
from it, and especially appreciate the poems that have been
posted, which have broadened my idea of what's out there,
both good and bad.  

To celebrate, I'm now going to post a poem of my 
own to New-Poetry for the first time (as far as I know).  
Actually, the main reason I'm posting it is that I recently 
put it up at humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare where
I argue with others about who wrote Shakespeare, and the
anti-Stratfordian I was arguing with at the time called it
"unintelligible garbage" (intentionally unintelligible, in fact).  I'd
posted it as an example of a poem based on something out
of my own life but with all details removed for aesthetic
reasons.  I was trying to persuade the anti-Stratfordian
that this was the was Shakespeare operated.

Others, these ones on my side in the authorship controversy
but like most lovers of Shakespeare, and most posters to
New-Poetry, agreed with my opponent that poetry has been
going downhill since the invention of free verse.  They were 
too polite to say anthing about my poem, though.

I'm curious if anyone here finds it of any interest.  I consider it
one of my best conventional poems but have no trouble with
anyone's not liking it.  It's called "Her Willingnesses":

Half a chorus below noon
Poem pterumbled through
the splurged willingnesses
she'd uncandled on the steps 
of his ...ctatio...

An aria lower, he fused with
long-abandoned blueberry guesses
in a shadowly field
piss-colored cottages had exhaled
somewhere in Massachusetts.
Nuns on black bicycles were everywhere.

(Note: "Poem" is the name of the persona of
this and many other related poems of mine.)

                                     --Bob G.




From JforJames  Tue Feb 12 21:22:42 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:22:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Things Are Bad All Over
Message-ID: <16b.8be2997.299b27f2@aol.com>

University of Warwick Researcher Says Poetry Publishing in Crisis - "At the 
major presses, the accountants are in charge and poetry is virtually banned" 
Date :18/01/2002 Type : Press Release University of Warwick researcher David 
Morley will open a major debate on the future of poetry on Wednesday 30th 
January at the University of Warwick by claiming that: "These are bleak times 
to be a new poet. At the major presses, the accountants are in charge and 
poetry is virtually banned. When Oxford University Press slammed its doors on 
poets last year it signalled the end of a long tradition of publishing. And 
there was worse to come. Faber and Cape slimmed their list to a trickle of 
books. Bloodaxe announced a three year moratorium on publishing new work. The 
few presses left are underfunded and understaffed, yet overwhelmed with new 
poets clamouring at the sacred gate". David Morley, Director of the 
University of Warwick's "Warwick Writing Programmme" will make these remarks 
as chair of a debate entitled The Crisis in Poetry Publishing at the 
University of Warwick's Arts Centre, on Wednesday 30th January at 7.15pm, 
which will bring together for the first time five of the key players from the 
publishing industry to discuss the issues involved in poetry publishing 
today. Details on the panellists now follow: As chairman of Bloodaxe Books, 
Simon Thirsk has wrestled with their finance/marketing/survival problems for 
20 years. Esther Morgan is the editor of the press Pen&Inc. She lectures in 
creative writing at the University of East Anglia and has published her first 
collection with Bloodaxe. Christina Patterson is the new Director of The 
Poetry Society, the poets' equivalent of the NUS. Rupert Loydell is an 
acclaimed poet and Arts Council Poetry Fellow at Warwick; he edits Stride 
Publications. Matthew Hollis is co-editor of Strong Words: Modern Poets on 
Modern Poetry (Bloodaxe), and works first as an editor at Oxford University 
Press and now at Faber as assistant poetry editor. David Morley, Director of 
the Warwick Writing Programme and a poet himself, chairs the debate, which 
will be recorded and published. For further information please contact: David 
Morley, University of Warwick Tel: 024 76 523346 
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From JforJames  Tue Feb 12 22:18:39 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:18:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] From the Simianthology
Message-ID: <116.c362770.299b350f@aol.com>

One by Donald Finkel... 


The Ape Who Painted
       
       Toward the end of his career, Congo, was pro-
       ducing excellent circles, but nearly always filled them
       in immediately.
                         --Alexander Alland, Jr., _The Artistic Animal_

Toward the end painter was subject to sudden
fits of aimless pacing, sucking the end of his brush
his lips were permanently Indian Red, a pigment
to which he had grown obsessively partial

from time to time he would pause
to examine an apple, turning it
in his long, sensitive fingers, or fish
a dust-mouse gently from under his bed
not a hair displaced
or moon for hours, sprawled on his favorite tire
praying to his thumb

how fortunate we are to have captured on film
his miraculous thumb, in full career
sweeping in a great assured arc from left to right
trailing a gleaming Indian Red parabola
counterclockwise, following its own law
tailing up again, toward its beginning
deftly dividing out from in
then filling carefully the bowl of zero
with precious red, horizon to horizon

toward the end, the painter's cage was strewn
with fallen suns, great bloody periods
pages from some cosmic calendar
while he grew more taciturn than ever


from _What Manner of Beast_
poems by Donald Finkel (Atheneum, 1981)

A book full of many poems dealing with 
humankind's attempts to communicate with animals

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From odysseus34  Tue Feb 12 21:34:47 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:34:47 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <20020212202742.47396.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C69D0C2.6739C6AC@earthlink.net>


The Old Mole wrote:

> Re "sour grapes" ... do any of us really envy Angelou
> this gig? Sure, the money would be nice, but if I want
> to get into envy, I can find other people who have
> turned their poetic gifts into big bucks. Lou Reed,
> for example. James Dickey.

OK, I would pay real money to be Lou Reed.  -- James Dickey parlayed the
big bucks, though?  Did I miss something?  (Other than "Deliverance"?)

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Tue Feb 12 21:39:08 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:39:08 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <200202121903.g1CJ3cK36188@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com> <003001c1b408$67839820$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>
Message-ID: <3C69D1C7.BF4F38D2@earthlink.net>

> I was being ironic, remembering how some who belittled Collins
> the way he belittled Angelou were accused of sour grapes.
>
>                                                                      --Bob
> G.

My motives weren't anywhere near as high-minded;  I was just being a
smartass.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From tadrichards  Wed Feb 13 01:00:54 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:00:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <20020212202742.47396.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com> <3C69D0C2.6739C6AC@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <014701c1b453$cc7b4340$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Deliverance was a big-bucks item. A  bestselling novel, a high budget movie.

And one of my paperback originals was cover-blurbed...."More gripping, more
savage than Deliverance!"



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: "odysseus34" <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"


>
>
> The Old Mole wrote:
>
> > Re "sour grapes" ... do any of us really envy Angelou
> > this gig? Sure, the money would be nice, but if I want
> > to get into envy, I can find other people who have
> > turned their poetic gifts into big bucks. Lou Reed,
> > for example. James Dickey.
>
> OK, I would pay real money to be Lou Reed.  -- James Dickey parlayed the
> big bucks, though?  Did I miss something?  (Other than "Deliverance"?)
>
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From odysseus34  Wed Feb 13 00:19:44 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:19:44 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <20020212202742.47396.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com> <3C69D0C2.6739C6AC@earthlink.net> <014701c1b453$cc7b4340$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3C69F76C.ACC11781@earthlink.net>


theoldmole wrote:

> Deliverance was a big-bucks item. A  bestselling novel, a high budget movie.
>
> And one of my paperback originals was cover-blurbed...."More gripping, more
> savage than Deliverance!

Ah, I thought that was what you meant.  But surely Lou Reed's lyrics are, well,
closer to poetry than "Deliverance"?  I mean, just in terms of making $$ off
poetry -- making money off lyrics would seem to me closer to poetry than a poet
writing a novel.

The only really savage thing I remember about "Deliverance" is that goddamned
banjo-picking contest.

(Oh my, Todd Eldridge just blew the quadruple jump.)

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Wed Feb 13 00:25:42 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:25:42 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
References: <B88EA5AA.2643%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3C69F8D0.4C2C9283@earthlink.net>

> Yes, they (Gunn & Duncan) know each other.  When I was living in SF in the
> early 80's I saw
> them talking on several occasions.
>
> Paul Lake

Wow.  But did anyone ever overhear what was said?

gossipily curious

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Wed Feb 13 00:46:41 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:46:41 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
References: <14c.8cc1e0c.299a8119@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C69FDB9.C7D3209B@earthlink.net>


JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> A collaboration with Thomas Kinkade surely is on the shining horizon.

AUGH!

Now I need to go wash my mind out with soap!

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From halvard  Wed Feb 13 07:24:00 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:24:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
In-Reply-To: <3C69F76C.ACC11781@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAECPEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Speaking of making $$ off poetry, no one yet seems to have
mentioned Allen Ginsberg and co. Ginsberg was legendary in
terms of his ability to turn the Beat scene into a money-making
proposition for himself, Kerouac, Burroughs, and some others.

Hal            Visit Our Other Location

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


{    I mean, just in terms of making $$ off
{    poetry -- making money off lyrics would seem to me closer to poetry than a poet
{    writing a novel.
{    Moira



From halvard  Wed Feb 13 07:53:57 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:53:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] From the Simianthology
In-Reply-To: <116.c362770.299b350f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEDAEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

How to Tell Poets from Other Mammals

1.

Poets all have hair, rather than feathers or scales.
But when one reads that the side walls of their noses
contain a spongy erectile tissue that leads to nasal
enlargement and nostril expansion by vaso-congestion
during sexual arousal, one begins to wonder.

2.

Poets have rounded outlines. But any body relationship
they feel should be grist to their sexual mill, and because they
are an inventive species it would be natural for them to experiment
with any postures they like?the more the better, in fact,
because this will increase the complexity of the sexual act,
increase sexual novelty, and prevent sexual boredom
between the members of long-mated poet pairs.

3.

Poets have flat faces, but virtually all the sexual signals and erogenous
zones are on the front of their bodies?the facial expressions, the lips,
the beards, the nipples, the areolar signals, the breasts of the females,
the pubic hair, the genitals themselves, the major blushing areas,
and the major sexual flush zones.

4.

Poets have varied facial expressions, but these are often unseen by partners, as
the typical mating posture of poets involves the rear approach of the male
to the female. She lifts her rear end and directs it toward the male. Her genital
region is visually presented backwards to him. He sees it, moves toward her,
and mounts her from behind. There is no frontal body contact during copulation,
the male?s genital region being pressed firmly to the female?s rump region.

5.

Poets can ?manipulate? objects. They attack small objects,
shake large ones, spit and spew, and try they try to bite, scratch or
strike anything in reach. In younger poets these activities are rather
random and uncoordinated. Their crying indicates that fear
is still present. The aggression has not yet matured to the point
of a pure attack: this will come much later when the poet is sure
of itself and fully aware of its physical capacities. When it does develop,
it has its own special facial signals. These consist of a tight-lipped glare.
The lips are pursed into a hard line, with the mouth-corners
held forward rather than pulled back. The eyes stare fixedly at
the audience and the eyebrows are lowered in a frown. The fists
are clenched. The poet has begun to assert itself.

[adapted from Desmond Morris's *The Naked Ape*]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From wasanthony  Wed Feb 13 10:06:05 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:06:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Reviews
In-Reply-To: <B88EC8A5.2649%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <20020213150605.50773.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Paul.  I'm adding it to the links page at poetserv.com

- Jim

--- Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:
> I don't remember seeing this cite mentioned on this list before, so
> here's a
> website that specializes in poetry reviews and articles.
> 
> http://www.cprw.com/
> 
> 
> Paul Lake
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>

Readings: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/readings.html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From GrahamD  Wed Feb 13 12:49:15 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:49:15 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D0B@mail.ripon.edu>

All things are relative, of course, and I'll bet Ginsberg never made what
the folks in Silicon Valley would consider real money.  (My brother the tax
lawyer once informed me that the pennies I've earned as a poet are
classified as "hobby income.")  

There are other poets who've made significant money (in po-biz terms) apart
from teaching. Many on the reading circuit--supported indirectly by the
academic world, of course, just as Ginsberg was.

Robert Bly, for instance--who even before he transformed into Iron Robert
made most his income by giving readings.  Donald Hall.  Gwendolyn Brooks.
And didn't W. S. Merwin survive for decades without teaching?  

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================

> ----------
> From: 	Halvard Johnson
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 13, 2002 6:24 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	RE: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
> 
> Speaking of making $$ off poetry, no one yet seems to have
> mentioned Allen Ginsberg and co. Ginsberg was legendary in
> terms of his ability to turn the Beat scene into a money-making
> proposition for himself, Kerouac, Burroughs, and some others.
> 
> Hal            Visit Our Other Location
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> 
> 



From Jtcanaday  Wed Feb 13 12:49:32 2002
From: Jtcanaday (Jtcanaday at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:49:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] PoetryNet and Poet of the Month
Message-ID: <16f.8c2df3d.299c012c@aol.com>

Just a heads up, if you have tried to connect to PoetryNet recently, the 
server is in thrall to some sort of bizarre technical glitch that requires 
you to add "/index.html" to the URL. (Normally, your internet browser does 
this for you.)

If you haven't tried to visit recently, do! This month's Poet of the Month is 
Amy Uyematsu. Recent Poets of the Month have included: Michael Waters (Jan 
2002), Kim Addonizio (Dec 2001), Charles Harper Webb (Nov 2001), and David 
Lehman (Oct 2001).

The URLs are:

for PoetryNet (in general): <A HREF="members.aol.com/poetrynet/index.html">
members.aol.com/poetrynet/index.html</A>
for Poet of the Month (direct): <A 
HREF="members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/index.html">
members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/index.html</A>

with best wishes,

John Canaday



From halvard  Wed Feb 13 13:17:37 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:17:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D0B@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEDIEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Well, of course, we're not talking real money here, David. We're
talking po biz, and Ginsberg was a master at self-promotion and
could earn $10,000 per reading in his prime. My guess is that there
are a couple nowadays who can make that (even in current dollars)--
Angelou? June Jordan? Others?

Bly, as I recall, made his living by doing translations, long before he
could draw as a reader of his own work. Merwin? Don't know.
Money of his own? 

Lynda and I heard the Juilliard Quartet play Elliott Carter's String 
Quartet #5 the other night, and Carter himself (at 95!) gave a little
lecture before the performance. He's still going strong, doing major
work every year, and there's been family money (those little liver
pills, I've heard--not to mention a wife with money) to keep him
"job"-free for his entire career.

Hal
   
{    All things are relative, of course, and I'll bet Ginsberg never made what
{    the folks in Silicon Valley would consider real money.  (My brother the tax
{    lawyer once informed me that the pennies I've earned as a poet are
{    classified as "hobby income.")  
{    
{    There are other poets who've made significant money (in po-biz terms) apart
{    from teaching. Many on the reading circuit--supported indirectly by the
{    academic world, of course, just as Ginsberg was.
{    
{    Robert Bly, for instance--who even before he transformed into Iron Robert
{    made most his income by giving readings.  Donald Hall.  Gwendolyn Brooks.
{    And didn't W. S. Merwin survive for decades without teaching?  




From GrahamD  Wed Feb 13 14:12:18 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:12:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D0D@mail.ripon.edu>

Money & poetry:  always a fascinating subject!  I know that Gwendolyn Brooks
was asking (actually, her agent was) about $3000 per reading a decade ago.
That was a little out of my league--at my college we had a $400 annual
poetry reading budget, as I recall.  No doubt GB got even more in recent
years.  

Folks like Heaney & Walcott, if you can get them at all, put their price
well above $10K.  The Nobel is definitely the gift that keeps giving.  So is
the Pulitzer, I've heard.  

Don't know for sure, but rumors are that Angelou's one of the most expensive
these days.  I have to say that she's worth it, too, based on my experience.
Both times I saw her she gave a great show, full of song and dance, and read
more Dunbar and Hughes than Angelou, thank goodness.  

Then there is the Robert Francis option.  He made most of his money from
poetry for decades.  Which meant that he had no car or telephone, grew much
of his own food, scrounged his furniture, and never went to New Orleans for
the AWP. . . .

David Graham (still available for a reasonable fee)

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================

> ----------
> From: 	Halvard Johnson
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 13, 2002 12:17 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	RE: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
> 
> Well, of course, we're not talking real money here, David. We're
> talking po biz, and Ginsberg was a master at self-promotion and
> could earn $10,000 per reading in his prime. My guess is that there
> are a couple nowadays who can make that (even in current dollars)--
> Angelou? June Jordan? Others?
> 
> Bly, as I recall, made his living by doing translations, long before he
> could draw as a reader of his own work. Merwin? Don't know.
> Money of his own? 
> 
> Lynda and I heard the Juilliard Quartet play Elliott Carter's String 
> Quartet #5 the other night, and Carter himself (at 95!) gave a little
> lecture before the performance. He's still going strong, doing major
> work every year, and there's been family money (those little liver
> pills, I've heard--not to mention a wife with money) to keep him
> "job"-free for his entire career.
> 
> Hal
>    
> {    All things are relative, of course, and I'll bet Ginsberg never made
> what
> {    the folks in Silicon Valley would consider real money.  (My brother
> the tax
> {    lawyer once informed me that the pennies I've earned as a poet are
> {    classified as "hobby income.")  
> {    
> {    There are other poets who've made significant money (in po-biz terms)
> apart
> {    from teaching. Many on the reading circuit--supported indirectly by
> the
> {    academic world, of course, just as Ginsberg was.
> {    
> {    Robert Bly, for instance--who even before he transformed into Iron
> Robert
> {    made most his income by giving readings.  Donald Hall.  Gwendolyn
> Brooks.
> {    And didn't W. S. Merwin survive for decades without teaching?  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From Rsgwynn1  Wed Feb 13 16:26:05 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:26:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
Message-ID: <39.2284b6a9.299c33ed@cs.com>

There was a NYTimes article titled Allen Ginsberg, Millionaire, a few years 
before he died.  He had recently sold his papers to Columbia for a huge sum.
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From halvard  Wed Feb 13 16:46:54 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:46:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
In-Reply-To: <39.2284b6a9.299c33ed@cs.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEDMEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Yes, and he was one of those generous millionaires too. When panhandled
he'd sign his name on a piece of paper and tell the recipient he could
peddle
it for at least $25.

Hal     "Beware the bomb concealed when
            a poet is being pleasant."
                              --Richard Eder, NY Times
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


  -----Original Message-----
  From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 4:26 PM
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"


  There was a NYTimes article titled Allen Ginsberg, Millionaire, a few
years before he died.  He had recently sold his papers to Columbia for a
huge sum.
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From JforJames  Wed Feb 13 18:11:18 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:11:18 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?new=20film:=20Pi=F1ero=20?=
Message-ID: <de.225900ec.299c4c96@aol.com>

Pi?ero

Director: Leon Ichaso
Country: USA
Year: 2001
Time: 100 minutes
Film Types: Colour/35mm
Producer: John Penotti, Fisher Stevens, Tim Williams
Screenplay: Leon Ichaso
Cinematography: Claudio Chea
Editor: David Tedeschi
Production Designer: Sharon Lomofsky
Sound: Andy Edelman, Ira Speigel, Rob Fernandez
Music: Kip Hanrahan
Principal Cast: Benjamin Bratt, Talisa Soto, Giancarlo Esposito, Rita Moreno, 
Mandy Patinkin

Miguel Pi?ero rose to prominence in New York in the mid-seventies as a poet, 
playwright and actor whose stinging prose and passionate persona spoke 
directly to the experience of the city?s Puerto Rican populace. A co-founder 
of the influential Nuyorican Poets Caf?, his work was an inspiration to 
Latinos, blacks and people of various ethnic backgrounds subsisting in the 
lower classes of New York society but desperate to achieve some level of 
self-expression. Today, his urban poetry is recognized as a precursor to rap 
and hip hop.

Leon Ichaso?s enthralling biography traces the life of this controversial 
artist. The film adopts a highly impressionistic style and eschews a 
traditional linear narrative in favour of a dynamic, freewheeling 
stream-of-consciousness approach that leaps from one life experience to 
another, perfectly capturing Pi?ero?s charismatic personality and whirlwind 
lifestyle. Raised by an abusive father who abandons the family when he?s 
still a child, Pi?ero (Benjamin Bratt) grows into a life of petty crime and 
eventually turns to drug dealing and addiction. After serving time in 
Sing-Sing, he develops his prison experiences into the highly acclaimed 1974 
play ?Short Eyes?, which wins seven Tony nominations and establishes him as 
a rising star.

Infinitely uncomfortable with his new celebrity status, his personal charisma 
more volatile than endearing, he retreats to the comfort of the streets. 
Seeking solace with his girlfriend Sugar (Talisa Soto) and his long-time 
friend Miguel Algarin (Giancarlo Esposito) ? a university literature 
professor and fellow co-founder of the Nuyorican Caf? ? Pi?ero does guest 
spots on TV shows like ?Kojak? and continues writing poetry. But his star 
fades quickly as his writing disciple overtakes him on Broadway and his 
affair with drugs begins to threaten his life.

Benjamin Bratt?s harrowing and electric performance anchors the film in place 
as the narrative seamlessly wends from one time period to the next. Never 
losing touch with its thematic concerns, Pi?ero relies less on plot and more 
on its remarkable ability to provide the viewer with an emotional investment 
in the artist?s own experiences.

? Mich?le Maheux
    
    
    
    

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From DICK  Wed Feb 13 18:21:45 2002
From: DICK (DICK at watson.ibm.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 18:21:45 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NY Review of Books article by Simic
Message-ID: <200202132337.g1DNbAK39220@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com>

Simic's review of Collins' "Sailing..." and Tate's "Memoir of
the Hawk" pointed out that each is distinctive in his own way,
not following the various trends in American poetry of the last
several decades. He says Collins is quite "literary" (not so
convincingly, I think), likes to start with the familiar and
end up in the strange, is very imaginative. He quotes in full
"Consolation" and "Afternoon with Irish Cows."  His review of
Collins is quite favorable, but also criticizes that often
his poem is completely controlled from beginning to end.

Where Collins has his own voice that he always uses, Tate has
many different voices, takes on multiple personalities, likes
to "write a poem out of nothing." Simic includes the full text
of several of Tate's poems, including a couple of prose poems.

It's not a revelatory article, but at a very high level of
conversation about the two poets.  Simic points out the
differences between them.

Richard



From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 00:25:59 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:25:59 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D0B@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6B4A63.DF2BEC75@earthlink.net>


Graham, David wrote:

> And didn't W. S. Merwin survive for decades without teaching?

Ah, but wasn't at least some of that courtesy of the BBC?  As I recall from
some of the Plath biographies, the Merwins were supposedly a sort of model for
the Plath-Hughes menage in earning money as working poets without having to
teach, and the BBC was a large part of that.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 00:29:15 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:29:15 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEDIEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6B4B26.3DAB1D98@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:

> Merwin? Don't know.
> Money of his own?

I just looked up Peter Davison's "Fading Smile," and Merwin was able to move to
Lacan (France) with his then-wife Dido, purchasing a rather decrepit farmhouse,
with a legacy from an aunt.  Thus did he escape 1) American academia and 2) the
slightly more bohemian solution of tutoring Robert Graves' son William.  Would that
we all had such aunties.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From JBCM2  Thu Feb 14 09:49:19 2002
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:49:19 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
Message-ID: <136.8f8eadf.299d286f@aol.com>

In a message dated 02/14/2002 1:27:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes:


> I just looked up Peter Davison's "Fading Smile," and Merwin was able to move 
> to
> Lacan (France) with his then-wife Dido, purchasing a rather decrepit 
> farmhouse,
> with a legacy from an aunt.  Thus did he escape 1) American academia and 2) 
> the
> slightly more bohemian solution of tutoring Robert Graves' son William.  
> Would that
> we all had such aunties.
> 
> 

Merwin also has a big spread on Maui.  I lived up the road from him there for 
about a year, and I used to see him out walking frequently.  I understand 
he's lived there for years...

joe brennan...
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From hruggier  Thu Feb 14 11:28:23 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:28:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Hallmarketing Poetry
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D03@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6BE5A7.914A24B5@localnet.com>

Is hallmarky better or worse than Hallmurky?

You know that Bill Stafford did a guest stint at Hallmark U (big bucks too).

Helen

"Graham, David" wrote:

> I think far more people have been reading Angelou than Collins for some time
> now, just as more read Edgar Guest than Robert Frost.
>
> I'm just surprised at Collins's frankness at saying aloud what most poets
> think.  Kind of interesting to have a poet laureate willing to be cranky in
> public, isn't it?
>
> I guess he could have pushed it one step further, and noted that Angelou's
> pre-Hallmark verse is, well, rather Hallmarky.
>
> David Graham
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
>
> > ----------
> > From:         odysseus34
> > Reply To:     new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent:         Monday, February 11, 2002 8:01 PM
> > To:   new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject:      Re: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob Grumman wrote:
> >
> > > Is it permissible to accuse Billy Collins of sour grapes?
> > >
> > > I think being Hallmark's first inhouse-poet is better than being
> > > the U.S. Poet Laureate, myself.  It's certainly no step down for
> > Angelou.
> >
> > One could indeed argue that by being Hallmark's Poet she is now a sort of
> > unofficial US Poet Laureate.  Surely far more people will now read her
> > poems
> > than Billy's.  That is, one could argue this, but I would not, because
> > like Bob
> > I say nothing but nice things.
> >
> > Moira Russell
> > Seattle, WA
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Thu Feb 14 11:20:44 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:20:44 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
Message-ID: <da.13a64dc5.299d3ddc@aol.com>

Of course if you don't have independent means then the 
measure of security one gives up as a  "non-working" poet 
takes a tremendous amount of resourcefulness, self-discipline
and will.
Or in some cases the complete lack of will...or just.not 
giving a damn about what society values. In any case, 
there is something admirable about that choice to be 
an artist and only an artist. 
Even with the means, it takes some amount of courage 
in our culture to be a "unemployed" poet. The lingering influence 
of the Protestant work-ethic can still be felt psychically, if 
not in the attitudes of friends and family. This is especially true 
for those poets unable to point to major awards or honors 
they've garnered by their "work." 
Longing to be a layabout poet.
Finnegan


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From Jholmes  Thu Feb 14 17:32:25 2002
From: Jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:32:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <sc6bd8ac.024@athena.boisestate.edu>

Merwin is hardly the landed gentry. He, too, did an enormous amount of
translation work to survive: The Poem of the Cid, The Song of Roland,
Rollain, Neruda, Mandelstam, Chamfort, Euripides.



From gudding  Thu Feb 14 17:52:34 2002
From: gudding (Gudding)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:52:34 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
In-Reply-To: <sc6bd8ac.024@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020214165021.01f408b0@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>

Janet and others, You may be interested to know that Merwin is currently 
working on a translation of "Sir Gawain." This is straight from the horse's 
mouth, so to speak (he was in Oxford reading about 4 months back), and he 
will, yes, keep the bob and wheel.

Gabe

, Janet Holmes wrote:
>Merwin is hardly the landed gentry. He, too, did an enormous amount of
>translation work to survive: The Poem of the Cid, The Song of Roland,
>Rollain, Neruda, Mandelstam, Chamfort, Euripides.




From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 21:48:25 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:48:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Real Estate
References: <136.8f8eadf.299d286f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C76F6.22328769@earthlink.net>

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From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 21:54:18 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:54:18 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <da.13a64dc5.299d3ddc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C7856.FDD47C53@earthlink.net>

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From JBCM2  Thu Feb 14 23:03:07 2002
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:03:07 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Real Estate
Message-ID: <16e.8de5701.299de27b@aol.com>

In a message dated 02/14/2002 10:46:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes:


> I think he sold the house in Lacan before moving to Hawaii (for one thing it 
> might have been contested property in the divorce from Dido) but this 
> strikes me as wrong.  I don't remember if it was before or after he moved 
> to Hawaii that he became active in the ecological movement. I 
> 
> 

Well, he certainly became active in the ecological movement after he came to 
Maui.  The fellow we rented from had property that was above Merwin's, and 
this fellow had a nursery and used Roundup, which Merwin bitterly protested.  
Anyway, I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong with having a place 
on Maui, it's the most beautiful place I've ever been.  Every artist has to 
have his or her deal, and Merwin seems to have made out better than most.  
What's interesting to me about Merwin is that he figured out how to do what 
he wanted without being compromised by having to work in something unrelated. 
 Those of us who have gone down this path have usually found it a struggle...

joe brennan
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From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 22:11:32 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:11:32 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
References: <sc6bd8ac.024@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6C7C5E.1A4301FA@earthlink.net>


Janet Holmes wrote:

> Merwin is hardly the landed gentry. He, too, did an enormous amount of
> translation work to survive: The Poem of the Cid, The Song of Roland,
> Rollain, Neruda, Mandelstam, Chamfort, Euripides.

True, he wasn't on the same economic rung of the ladder as, say, Merrill,
and the farm in Lacan was apparently quite beat-up, it cost the entire
inheritance and prices were a lot lower then (if I recall correctly).
But I think part of the original point was that he is not someone who has
ever had to take a regular job to survive, and while he might not have
been very well-off, he was able to make a good living.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 22:16:33 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:16:33 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020214165021.01f408b0@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6C7D8A.4E27F938@earthlink.net>


Gudding wrote:

> Janet and others, You may be interested to know that Merwin is currently
> working on a translation of "Sir Gawain." This is straight from the horse's
> mouth, so to speak (he was in Oxford reading about 4 months back), and he
> will, yes, keep the bob and wheel.
>
> Gabe
>
> , Janet Holmes wrote:
> >Merwin is hardly the landed gentry. He, too, did an enormous amount of
> >translation work to survive: The Poem of the Cid, The Song of Roland,
> >Rollain, Neruda, Mandelstam, Chamfort, Euripides.

This may sound extremely sour but while doing a forty-hour-a-week clerical gig
to pay rent cat food student loans etc. "doing an enormous amount of
translation work to survive" sounds pretty damned delightful to me.  Stuck
translating the Cid?  Woe!  Philip Larkin was a librarian for God knows how
long in Hull.  Stevens was a lawyer or a businessman, I always forget which.
How many others have there been?  (Poets working _jobs,_ not in academia.)

//end sour note//

Moira Russell (still waiting for the ultimate suite of poems about office
work)
Seattle, WA




From halvard  Fri Feb 15 00:34:56 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:34:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
In-Reply-To: <3C6C7D8A.4E27F938@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEFFEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    Philip Larkin was a librarian for God knows how
{    long in Hull.  Stevens was a lawyer or a businessman, I always forget which.
{    How many others have there been?  (Poets working _jobs,_ not in academia.)

Too late to work up a full list, Moira, but Stevens was in insurance (as I recall),
and then there was W. C. Williams, who was a pediatrician. Ferlinghetti owned
and ran a bookstore (City Lights), became also a publisher. James Laughlin
(of Pittsburgh steel $$) was a publisher. Weldon Kees was a painter, a jazz
pianist, a film maker, etc. Much too late, and there's quite a bunch.

Hal            Visit Our Other Location

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 23:55:30 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:55:30 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEFFEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6C94B2.B4FD1575@earthlink.net>

> Too late to work up a full list, Moira, but Stevens was in insurance (as I recall),
> and then there was W. C. Williams, who was a pediatrician. Ferlinghetti owned
> and ran a bookstore (City Lights), became also a publisher. James Laughlin
> (of Pittsburgh steel $$) was a publisher. Weldon Kees was a painter, a jazz
> pianist, a film maker, etc. Much too late, and there's quite a bunch.
>
> Hal

Well, painter and bookstore-owner and publisher not quite what I was thinking of.
More poets who held down full-time or more jobs, like Stevens.  Maybe I'm just looking
for inspiration (not necessarily poets who wore many artistic hats).

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From antrobin  Fri Feb 15 03:07:16 2002
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:07:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEFFEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004801c1b5f7$eae350c0$1daeefd8@0021936706>

Stevens was a lawyer who worked for an insurance firm.

He wrote poems while walking around a lake, watching geese, eating cinnamon
buns.

And Hemingway kicked his ass in Key West.

Tony
***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be
better left alone."
Kenneth Koch

***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in
us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"


----- Original Message -----
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Merwin


>
> {    Philip Larkin was a librarian for God knows how
> {    long in Hull.  Stevens was a lawyer or a businessman, I always forget
which.
> {    How many others have there been?  (Poets working _jobs,_ not in
academia.)
>
> Too late to work up a full list, Moira, but Stevens was in insurance (as I
recall),
> and then there was W. C. Williams, who was a pediatrician. Ferlinghetti
owned
> and ran a bookstore (City Lights), became also a publisher. James Laughlin
> (of Pittsburgh steel $$) was a publisher. Weldon Kees was a painter, a
jazz
> pianist, a film maker, etc. Much too late, and there's quite a bunch.
>
> Hal            Visit Our Other Location
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From Arielpf123  Fri Feb 15 06:44:20 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:44:20 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <22.23b30a5a.299e4e94@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/14/02 11:14:27 PM, odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes:

<< Stevens was a lawyer or a businessman, I always forget which.
How many others have there been?  (Poets working _jobs,_ not in academia.)

//end sour note//

Moira Russell (still waiting for the ultimate suite of poems about office
work) >>

Stevens was an insurance executive at Aetna in Hartford.  I  worked at Aetna 
for 8 1/2 years, and I don't know how he did it...(wrote and worked there at 
the same time). They've said few at work knew he was a famous poet...and that 
he used to write poems and shove them in his desk drawer.   I think it must 
have taken some kind of mind-split.  Because I remember feeling as if it were 
almost impossible to write a poem while working there....the air was so dry, 
the thinking of another kind altogether.  I've tried to write even one poem 
about the place and haved failed. A suite seems impossible...though I'm sure 
someone will find a way to do it.

Pat Fargnoli



From JforJames  Fri Feb 15 09:36:29 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:36:29 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] POETRY SALZBURG REVIEW No. 2
Message-ID: <4b.186315ac.299e76ed@aol.com>

Date:    Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:35:21 +0100
From:    "Wolfgang.Goertschacher at sbg.ac.at" <Wolfgang.Goertschacher at SBG.AC.AT>
Subject: POETRY SALZBURG REVIEW No. 2

POETRY SALZBURG REVIEW No. 2 (Winter -
Spring 2001/02), 170 pp
 
New Poetry by:
 
Kazim Ali, Fred Beake, Guy Birchard, Anne Born, WilliamCirocco,
Bethany Edstrom, Peter Finch, David W.H. Grubb, Lee Harwood,Jeff Hilson,
Byron Kanoti, Aileen Kelly, Virginia Konchan, AlexisLykiard, Richard
Martin, Susan Maurer, Brian Mornar, Sharon Morris, JamesNorcliffe,
Propertius, Elizabeth Robinson, Georgia Scott, MichaelShcherba, Marie
Slaight, Alyson Torns, Bob Vance, Volker von T=F6rne, DanielWeissbort,
Vassilis Zambaras, Magdalena Zurawaski
 
 
 
Jeffrey Carson on John Heath-Stubbs; D. M. de Silva onChristopher
Middleton and Paul Celan; Lisa Fishman on Magdalena Zurawskiand Eileen
Myles; Stevie Krayer on Nicholas Bielby and Wendy Bardsley;Derrick
McClure on William Soutar / Heidelinde Pr=FCger; MichaelPalmer; Claire
Powell on Peter Finch; Heidelinde Pr=FCger on TheKeekin-Gless;
Glyn
 
Pursglove on Stefan Themerson.
 
 
 
Subscriptions (2 issues) =A3 9.00 / Euro 15.00 / US$ 20.00 
 
cheques payable to WOLFGANG G=D6RTSCHACHER
 
Address: University of Salzburg, Dept. of English andAmerican Studies,
Akademiestr. 24, A-5020 Salzburg, AUSTRIA, 
 
 
 
or David Miller, 6 Waynflete House, Union Street, London,SE1 0LE, GB,
 
 
or Lisa Fishman, Department of English, Beloit College,Beloit, WI 53511,
USA,
 
 
 
Forthcoming: POETRY SALZBURG No. 3 (Summer 2002)
 
A long interview with Allen Fisher (by Scott Thurston),essay by Scott
Thurston on Allen Fisher, news poems by Allen Fisher, TessaRansford,
Clive Faust, Matthew Geden, Georgia Scott, John Muckle,Sheila Hamilton,
Gael Turnbull, among others. 
 
Poetry Salzburg
Review
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From halvard  Fri Feb 15 10:04:37 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:04:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
In-Reply-To: <22.23b30a5a.299e4e94@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEFJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

  
{    Stevens was an insurance executive at Aetna in Hartford.  I  worked at Aetna 
{    for 8 1/2 years, and I don't know how he did it...(wrote and worked there at 
{    the same time). They've said few at work knew he was a famous poet...and that 
{    he used to write poems and shove them in his desk drawer.   I think it must 
{    have taken some kind of mind-split.  Because I remember feeling as if it were 
{    almost impossible to write a poem while working there....the air was so dry, 
{    the thinking of another kind altogether.  I've tried to write even one poem 
{    about the place and haved failed. A suite seems impossible...though I'm sure 
{    someone will find a way to do it.
{    
{    Pat Fargnoli

Did Stevens write any poems *about* Aetna?

Hal     "Beware the bomb concealed when 
            a poet is being pleasant."
                              --Richard Eder, NY Times
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html





From JforJames  Fri Feb 15 10:09:47 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:09:47 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <b8.22df2665.299e7ebb@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 6:45:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:
> Stevens was an insurance executive at Aetna in Hartford.  I  worked at Aetna 
> for 8 1/2 years, and I don't know how he did it...(wrote and worked there 
> at 
> the same time). They've said few at work knew he was a famous poet...and 
> that 
> he used to write poems and shove them in his desk drawer.   I think it must 
> have taken some kind of mind-split.  Because I remember feeling as if it 
> were 
> almost impossible to write a poem while working there....the air was so 
> dry, 
> the thinking of another kind altogether.  I've tried to write even one poem 
> about the place and haved failed. A suite seems impossible...though I'm 
> sure 
> someone will find a way to do it.
> 

Pat,
Stevens actually worked at The Hartford (stag logo) Insurance Co...in the same
part of town. I'm involved in a project now that will place 13 granite 
markers, each
engraved with a section from 13 Ways Of Looking At A Blackbird, running from
The Hartford grounds along Asylum Ave to the Westerly Terrrace property
(Stevens' former/last home). This will be known as the Wallace Stevens Walk...
a stretch he walked pretty much everyday of his working life to and fro the 
office. Many of his later poems were composed while he walked...so the story 
goes. 
Incidentally, in the biographies and letters I've seen there doesn't seem to 
be 
any indication that Stevens regretted his life as VP of an insurance company 
(he had a law degree but he didn't practice law per se...he did bonding work 
for The Hartford which often involves contract drafting and claims that come 
out of litigation). In fact I think he  was rather pleased with himself that 
he'd 
garnered such a reputation while not being fully engaged in a literary life.
Finnegan 

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From halvard  Fri Feb 15 10:16:16 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:16:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems re Office Work: Kenneth Fearing, "Now"
In-Reply-To: <3C6C7D8A.4E27F938@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEFJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Here's a start for you, Moira. There's a lot more in Fearing, I suspect,
but this will do for starters.


Now

Now that we know life:
Breakfast in the morning; office and theater and sleep; no
	memory;
Only desire and profit are real;
Now that we know life in our own way,

There is no war, no death,
There are no doubts, no terrors, and we make no mistakes;
There is a forest of bones in the earth but above it, now there
	is peace;
The fury is gone;
The purposes are gone;
For a little while, the agony is gone;
We have our own thoughts, we know life in our own way,
The world is quiet and green--

As it is where bubbles rise in the waters of swamps;
Where bubbles of gas rise and break among the reeds;
And the reeds are green;
And the frogs are loud, the water is warm where the bubbles rise;
The reeds are still;
The reeds are green, the water is warm, the sky is blue.

--Kenneth Fearing

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html





From halvard  Fri Feb 15 10:30:04 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:30:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems re Office Work: Kenneth Fearing, "Portrait (1)"
In-Reply-To: <22.23b30a5a.299e4e94@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEFKEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Here's another:

Portrait (1)

William Lowell is drunk again.
He has escaped the skull-faced men that whisper and wait.
	Forgotten the filed documents.
Now there is a reason for his smooth desk, for the rustling
	papers and white corridors.
Now there is a reason for his thousand defeats.
There is a reason for having gone with the whores, lain awake
	in black rooms, walked through vacant streets, talked to
	cats in deserted halls.
If the world knew, there are reasons for having lied and
	betrayed and cringed.

If the world knew his life,
Knew the hundred forces seeking to destroy him;
If there were an eye of God to see him as he is, know his
	motives in spite of evasion and compromise,
See him alone in desolate rooms, broken by remorse--

William Lowell, born under blue skies,
Child dreaming under broad pillars of sunlight rising beyond
	the clouds,
No fever then, no profane dreams, no skulls following him in
	roaring subway tunnels to stare through his eyes into a
	soul on fire,
Peace, and no crazy venom in those lost days--

If the world knew,
There is a reason for his thousand failures, vows, treacheries,
	lies, escapes,
And if the world would hear him,
William Lowell would be at peace with all mankind for one
	hour before the white corridors and echoing streets and
	staring skulls knew him no more,
William Lowell, the child of blue skies.

--Kenneth Fearing


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From Thom424  Fri Feb 15 10:42:25 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:42:25 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Office Poems
Message-ID: <193.24d18fb.299e8661@aol.com>

??

You might find this recent collection of some interest. I've included a few 
of the reviews from amazon.com:

A Working Girl Can't Win : And Other Poems by Deborah Garrison


"Every couple of years, some unlucky soul gets designated as the Poet for 
People Who Hate Poetry, and now it seems to be Deborah Garrison's turn. It's 
easy to see why: she gets the voice of the late 20th-century New Yorker to 
perfection, in all its kvetchy, melancholic glory. At times it's like hearing 
George Costanza channeling Emily Dickinson:

I'm never going to sleep
with Martin Amis
or anyone famous.

"Garrison also tends to sidestep metaphysics in favor of more accessible 
subject matter. That means love (mostly unrequited) and work (mostly 
unbearable, particularly for a working girl in a testosterone-driven office, 
wearied by the appearance of yet "another alpha male-- / a man's man, a 
dealmaker"). No wonder Garrison seems so appealing. And no wonder her 
publisher has capitalized on this appeal by packaging her book in such a 
sleek, chic jacket. It would be a mistake, however, to write her off as one 
more neurotic light versifier. Her metaphoric agility can take you by 
surprise: note the Atlantic breeze coming "up out of the surf / like a dog 
gone swimming, / slagging sand and spray every which way / and making the 
news unreadable." So, too, can the note of resignation that undergirds so 
many of Garrison's vignettes-in-verse, giving even her most featherweight 
performances an odd, unchic intensity." --This text refers to the Hardcover 
edition.
                                *****

Also, one of my all-time fav-o-rite office poems, Roethke's "Dolor."

I have known the inexorable sadness of pencils,
Neat in their boxes, dolor of pad and paper-weight,
All the misery of manilla folders and mucilage,
desolation in immaculate public places,
Lonely reception room, lavatory, switchboard,
The unalterable pathos of basin and pitcher,
Ritual of multigraph, paper-clip, comma,
Endless duplication of lives and objects.
And I have seen dust from the walls of institutions,
Finer than flour, alive, more dangerous than silica,
Sift, almost invisible, through long afternoons of tedium,
dropping fine film on nails and delicate eyebrows,
Glazing pale white hair, the duplicate grey standard faces.

                             *****

That "misery of manilla folders and mucilage"  gets me every the time. I 
don't think I'll go to the office today.

Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN






From paul.lake  Fri Feb 15 10:43:14 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:43:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
In-Reply-To: <3C6C7D8A.4E27F938@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B89288B2.269C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/14/02 9:16 PM, odysseus34 at odysseus34 at earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> 
> Gudding wrote:
> 
>> Janet and others, You may be interested to know that Merwin is currently
>> working on a translation of "Sir Gawain." This is straight from the horse's
>> mouth, so to speak (he was in Oxford reading about 4 months back), and he
>> will, yes, keep the bob and wheel.
>> 
>> Gabe
>> 
>> , Janet Holmes wrote:
>>> Merwin is hardly the landed gentry. He, too, did an enormous amount of
>>> translation work to survive: The Poem of the Cid, The Song of Roland,
>>> Rollain, Neruda, Mandelstam, Chamfort, Euripides.
> 
> This may sound extremely sour but while doing a forty-hour-a-week clerical gig
> to pay rent cat food student loans etc. "doing an enormous amount of
> translation work to survive" sounds pretty damned delightful to me.  Stuck
> translating the Cid?  Woe!  Philip Larkin was a librarian for God knows how
> long in Hull.  Stevens was a lawyer or a businessman, I always forget which.
> How many others have there been?  (Poets working _jobs,_ not in academia.)
> 
> //end sour note//
> 
> Moira Russell (still waiting for the ultimate suite of poems about office
> work)
> Seattle, WA
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Moira, check out Dana Gioia's essay in Can Poetry Matter on "Business and
Poety," which contains a long list of poets with real (nonacadaemic) jobs.

Paul Lake




From JforJames  Fri Feb 15 11:19:54 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:19:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hell With Love
Message-ID: <8d.13f06245.299e8f2a@aol.com>

How do you mend a broken heart? With 75 poems 
Thu Feb 14, 5:56 AM ET 
Bob Minzesheimer USA TODAY 

The Hell With Love: Poems to Mend a Broken Heart began with a broken heart. 
  
It belonged to Mary Esselman, who struggled with a two-year, 
on-again/off-again breakup with a guy. ''We'll call him Dick,'' she says.

When it was finally over, ''I raged, I cried, I defiantly faked being fine,'' 
but what ultimately helped was advice from an older friend, Elizabeth Ash 
V??lez, who read poetry to her.

Yes, poetry.

Her first selection was Mark Doty's Tiara, which is about a man dying of AIDS 
complications: Peter died in a paper tiara/cut from a book of princess paper 
dolls.

An unusual choice, Esselman concedes, ''but it's really about how we must 
take risks in this world. It's the only way to live.''

Other poems followed: Shakespeare and John Donne, which, Esselman says, ''put 
me into good company and helped remind me that I wasn't the only one to go 
through this.''

The two women met 17 years ago when Esselman, a graduate student in English, 
worked as an assistant for V??lez, who teaches at Georgetown University in 
Washington, D.C.

''We're close friends,'' V??lez says, ''but because of our ages (she's 56, 
Esselman is 39), I feel a little motherly toward Mary.''

Plus, V??lez says, after 32 years of marriage, she has learned that ''there's 
no happiness that you don't pay for.''

Believers in what they call ''the transformative power of literature,'' they 
compiled The Hell With Love (Warner, $14.95), calling it ''literary therapy 
for the heartbroken.''

They grouped 75 poems into eight ''emotional stages'' of a breakup.

The book begins with Rage, ''when hatred isn't strong enough,'' moves on to 
False Hope, ''when you're convinced you can get back together'' and concludes 
with Moving On, ''when you rediscover the world and its joys.''

Poets range from William Butler Yeats to Billy Collins to V??lez's husband, 
Larry V??lez, a speechwriter at the Department of Health and Human Services 
who has, she says, ''the soul of a poet.''

It was published in time for Valentine's Day, but V??lez sees it ''as bigger 
than that,'' as a reminder that poetry can be accessible and help people 
through all kinds of loss and grief.

The title comes from a line in Lies by Yevgeny Yevtushenko: sorrow comes, 
hardship happens/The hell with it.

But V??lez says it's meant to apply to ''the romantic cultural icon that's 
impossible to maintain. We're not saying 'To hell with real love.' ''

As if to prove that, there's a postscript that could be written in Hollywood. 
Two years ago, upon selling the book, they celebrated with friends, and 
Esselman, ''not expecting to meet anyone,'' met Greg Roberts, the friend of a 
friend. Five months later, they were engaged.

At their wedding last July, V??lez read aloud one of the poems in the book, 
May Swenson's sensual and luscious Strawberrying, with a line about fruit: 
ripe to bursting, they might be hearts.




From grahamd  Fri Feb 15 11:37:07 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:37:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
Message-ID: <200202151635.g1FGZ1c00533@mx14.mx.voyager.net>

If you're wondering how to manage a poetic life and a work life without
killing yourself--be sure to tell me when you figure it out!

But if you're looking for poems about working life (apart from academics),
the literature seems vast.  (Isn't there a fairly recent anthology -- title
is escaping me--from Pittsburgh?)   

Many, however, seem to be retrospective--e.g. the entire career of Philip
Levine, who writes beautifully of factory work long past, like Joyce in
Paris writing of Dublin.  

A number of contemporary names spring immediately to mind.  Ted Kooser, Bob
Hicok, David Ignatow, Hayden Carruth, William Bronk, Dana Gioia, Thomas
Lynch, Tina Kelley, Ginger Andrews--all do or did spend a considerable time
writing poems while working outside academe.  Seems I can't think of many
women at the moment, but I'm sure there are quite a few.

I recently discovered the work of Michael Chitwood, a journalist in North
Carolina who writes fascinatingly (Levine-fashion) about work in the textile
mills of his past.

B. H. Fairchild's *The Art of the Lathe* is a terrific book studded with
work poems.

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




From jdavis  Fri Feb 15 11:57:28 2002
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:57:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
In-Reply-To: <200202151635.g1FGZ1c00533@mx14.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202151152430.9617-100000@panix1.panix.com>

No offense, but I find this line of discussion silly, as if to be a poet
automatically meant you were destined for a) academia or b) bohemia. We
all think of Stevens not because he worked for a living but because he was
damn successful both at work and in verse. Or, being a white guy who
studied law at Harvard doesn't seem to have hurt one's career arc in the
insurance industry in the Northeast in the mid-20th century. But after
all, it wasn't as if he was *running* the company. And it's not as if all
of us office poets are clerks, either.

I love talking about the rich and famous as much as the next American
gambler, but can we have some perspective here? David Graham! the balance
you seek is there all the time as you walk around; it's in your head.

Jordan Davis




From Thom424  Fri Feb 15 11:59:55 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:59:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
Message-ID: <62.1aecd8c9.299e988b@aol.com>

Peter OrseicK & William Coles: WORKING CLASSICS: POEMS OF INDUSTRIAL LIFE 
(1990) and FOR A LIVING: THE POETRY OF WORK (1995), both from University of 
Illinois Press.
Janet Zandy also edited a couple of working-class women's anthologies, one of 
which is CALLING HOME: WORKING-CLASS WOMEN'S  WRITING (Rutgers, 1990). 



From grahamd  Fri Feb 15 12:09:45 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:09:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
Message-ID: <200202151707.g1FH7dw54608@mx14.mx.voyager.net>

Jordan, many thanks for the career advice.

Since you so kindly ask, here's some perspective on the issue in question.

For One Moment

You take the dollar 
and hand it to the fellow beside you 
who turns and gives it to the next one 
down the line. The world being round, 
you stand waiting, smoking and lifting 
a cup of coffee to your lips, talking 
of seasonal weather and hinting 
at problems. The dollar returns, 
the coffee spills to the ground 
in your hurry. You have the money 
in one hand, a cup in the other, 
a cigarette in your mouth, 
and for one moment have forgotten 
what it is you have to do, 
your hair grey, your legs weakened 
from long standing.

--David Ignatow
-------------------------------------

Notes for a Lecture

I will teach you to become American, my students: 
take a turn at being enigmatic, to yourselves especially.
You work at a job and write poetry at night. 
You write about working. Married, 
you write about love.

I speak of kisses and mean quarrels,
the kiss brings the quarrel to mind, 
of differences for their own sakes.

Did I ever think, going to bed,
a woman beside me would be no more uplifting 
than a five-dollar raise? Since then 
I've been uplifted in bed a hundred times 
and but once raised in pay,
and that once has not been forgotten.

Take a broken whiskey bottle,
set it on top of your head
and dance.  You have a costume,
you have meaning.

--David Ignatow




========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: Jordan Davis <jdavis at panix.com>
>To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
>Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002, 10:57 AM
>

>No offense, but I find this line of discussion silly, as if to be a poet
>automatically meant you were destined for a) academia or b) bohemia. We
>all think of Stevens not because he worked for a living but because he was
>damn successful both at work and in verse. Or, being a white guy who
>studied law at Harvard doesn't seem to have hurt one's career arc in the
>insurance industry in the Northeast in the mid-20th century. But after
>all, it wasn't as if he was *running* the company. And it's not as if all
>of us office poets are clerks, either.
>
>I love talking about the rich and famous as much as the next American
>gambler, but can we have some perspective here? David Graham! the balance
>you seek is there all the time as you walk around; it's in your head.
>
>Jordan Davis
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Rsgwynn1  Fri Feb 15 12:26:53 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:26:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <8a.1418e3da.299e9edd@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/15/2002 5:45:49 AM Central Standard Time, 
Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:


> Stevens was an insurance executive at Aetna in Hartford.  I  worked at Aetna 
> for 8 1/2 years, and I don't know how he did it...(wrote and worked there 
> at 
> the same time). They've said few at work knew he was a famous poet...and 
> that 
> he used to write poems and shove them in his desk drawer.   I think it must 
> have taken some kind of mind-split.  Because I remember feeling as if it 
> were 
> almost impossible to write a poem while working there....the air was so 
> dry, 
> the thinking of another kind altogether.  I've tried to write even one poem 
> about the place and haved failed. A suite seems impossible...though I'm 
> sure 
> someone will find a way to do it.
> 
> 

Stevens was with the Hartford, which may now be part of Aetna.  He was a 
lawyer specializing in surety bonds.  In his early years with the firm he 
traveled quite a bit.  He eventually became a vice-president.  Peter 
Brazeau's Parts of a World contains interviews with people who worked with 
Stevens and explains quite a bit about the degree to which his poetic 
activities overlapped with his business work.  The Stevens marriage was a 
distant one, and he did most of his writing at night.
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From halvard  Fri Feb 15 12:46:19 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:46:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Broughton, "Solaces of Senility"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEFOEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Solaces of Senility

Every morning I say hello to my whimseys
and scrub the scum of learning off my mind.
What can mental discipline guarantee me now?
I no longer need to be smartass or do the right thing.
I don't understand the world and never expect to.

Having outgrown embarrassment about my failings
I simply attend to the needs of my perversity
and let my instincts run as riot as they can.
When I go out wool-gathering I swathe myself
in whatever golden fleece has the snuggest fit.

On the whole I enjoy being harmoniously dingalingy.
It gives me time to practice on my essence.

--James Broughton

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From acgold01  Fri Feb 15 13:18:29 2002
From: acgold01 (Alan C Golding)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:18:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <sc6d0aaf.051@gwise.louisville.edu>

David raised the question of female "poets of work," and one such would
be Karen Brodine, cofounder of Kelsey Street Press, an office worker and
typesetter, and author (most relevantly for this thread) of Woman
Sitting at a Machine, Thinking (c. 1990).  Also, a certain amount of her
poetry of office life is in longer forms.



From grahamd  Fri Feb 15 13:39:07 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:39:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <200202151837.g1FIbxR65450@mx5.mx.voyager.net>

>Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
>stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and people in
>academia.

Yes.  The standard charge that so many poets have gravitated to academia
because it's an easy life is seldom made, oddly enough, by those who teach
multiple sections of freshman comp or sophomore lit surveys.  The reference
point is usually someone like Robert Lowell, drifting in once a week to
teach his graduate workshop.  Class will out.  

Academic life seems real enough to me, most of the time.  But not to all. 
During final exam week at Virginia Tech once many years back, I heard a
student leave the building and shout "I'm done with English for the rest of
my life!"  Alas, probably true. . . .

Way back when I was a hourly-wage-earning rather than a salaried employee, I
seemed to have a lot more time and energy to write poetry than I do these
days.  Of course, I was younger and more energetic then, so it's hard to
compare.  Most of us find it hard to earn a living while also maintaining
our so-called poetic careers, seems to me, no matter how we earn our bread. 

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: "Alan C Golding" <acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
>Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002, 12:18 PM
>

>David raised the question of female "poets of work," and one such would
>be Karen Brodine, cofounder of Kelsey Street Press, an office worker and
>typesetter, and author (most relevantly for this thread) of Woman
>Sitting at a Machine, Thinking (c. 1990).  Also, a certain amount of her
>poetry of office life is in longer forms.
>
>From an earlier era, one thinks of Muriel Rukeyser's 1930s work
>poetry--focused on miners, however, not office workers.
>
>Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
>stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and people in
>academia.  Nor do I quite understand why Ferlinghetti's bookstore
>management and Jay Laughlin's publishing somehow don't count as real
>jobs.  Next time I'm up at 2 a.m. grading 40 papers, I must remind
>myself I'm not really working.
>
>Semi-sourly, from the paradisal idleness of my academic laptop,
>
>Alan



From jdavis  Fri Feb 15 13:57:04 2002
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:57:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
In-Reply-To: <200202151837.g1FIbxR65450@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202151350020.11122-100000@panix1.panix.com>

Am I wrong to hear a politics stirring in this ressentiment?

So many poets gravitate to graduate school -- it's a who-moved-my-cheese
problem, though; my professor has a good life, or something like it, why
can't I get that too? I think it's analogous to the problem of poets
perpetuating dead/academic forms, and I'm including the New American
Poetries in there with the formalisms. I might even suggest, on a day a
little farther from the contest deadlines, that poets gravitate toward
UV-laminated perfect-bound volumes of 48-96 pp out of the same
powerful drive to imitate.

I myself plan to just line as many sarcophagi as I can with my verses.

Jordan


On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, David Graham wrote:

>Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
>stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and people in
>academia.

Yes.  The standard charge that so many poets have gravitated to academia
because it's an easy life is seldom made, oddly enough, by those who teach
multiple sections of freshman comp or sophomore lit surveys.  The reference
point is usually someone like Robert Lowell, drifting in once a week to
teach his graduate workshop.  Class will out.
..
..
Way back when I was a hourly-wage-earning rather than a salaried employee, I
seemed to have a lot more time and energy to write poetry than I do these
days.  Of course, I was younger and more energetic then, so it's hard to
compare.  Most of us find it hard to earn a living while also maintaining
our so-called poetic careers, seems to me, no matter how we earn our bread.


------







From halvard  Fri Feb 15 14:39:56 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:39:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <200202151837.g1FIbxR65450@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGCEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I'm surprised now not to have thought earlier of Bernadette Mayer
(one below), Gary Snyder (one below), and even Frank O'Hara,
who wrote poems on the fly, being an art critic and later a curator
at MOMA, and even Ashbery, who, I guess, earned his living
from art criticism and translation before taking up the ease of
academic living.

Hay for the Horses

He had driven half the night


From bobgrumman  Fri Feb 15 14:43:06 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:43:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
References: <200202151837.g1FIbxR65450@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <005501c1b658$fec6c020$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

> >Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
> >stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and people in
> >academia.

I'm sure good teachers work very hard--but they have huge amounts of time
off
that people with non-teaching jobs don't have.

                                                                            
         --Bob G.




From dbarone  Fri Feb 15 15:04:21 2002
From: dbarone (dbarone)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:04:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] stevens
Message-ID: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249008D2C3@sjcmail.sjc.edu>

Men Made Out Of Words

What should we be without the sexual myth,
The human revery or poem of death?

Castratos of moon-mash -- Life consists
Of propositions about life.  The human

Revery is a solitude in which
We compose these propositions, torn by dreams,

By the terrible incatations of defeats
And by the fear that defeats and dreams are one.

The whole race is a poet that writes down
The eccentric propositions of its fate.

-- Wallace Stevens






From paul.lake  Fri Feb 15 15:03:24 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:03:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Work
Message-ID: <B892C5AC.26AC%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I've been a college teacher for a good long while now, though I'm one of
those who teach freshman and sophomore courses and have a heavy teaching
load.  Still, I'm grateful for long stretches of time off and time at the
end of the teaching day when other office workers are still on the clock and
I have an hour or two to write or revise.  Sometimes, though, I look back
fondly to a two year period when I'd dropped out of college and worked in
construction as a county pipe line inspector.  I worked in a little work
trailer on the job site all alone, with no supervision whatsoever.  The
laying of pipe is a pretty simple business and often slowed down for rocks
and water, so I had many hours in that trailer to read or do what I liked.
In retrospect, it might have been an ideal situation for a writer, though I
was eager to get out of it and go back to college.  I literally once went
nine months without seeing my boss except when I showed up at the office to
pick up my pay check. I got to work with a wide variety of people, too, and
heard some good stories, some of which eventually made it into poems.

Paul Lake 




From Cadaly  Fri Feb 15 15:11:50 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:11:50 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <91.1853d32e.299ec586@aol.com>

ron silliman
kit robinson
simon perchick
mary leader
janet holmes
shiela e. murphy

not all of these poets working (at least until a few years ago) outside the 
academy are working class, and I think that's a common blur; remember that 
monty python skit?

a real shortcoming of these anthologies is not those class assumptions, but 
that the anthologists are usually deeply flawed aquisitions editors:  how 
have they gone about finding these poems, these working poets?  many of the 
poets I listed have method, not content, common across professions &
they're not "academic poets"

so if the anthologists are out there looking for "academic poets" on the 
factory line, wow, they actually managed to find some people! amazing

Rgds,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From Arielpf123  Fri Feb 15 15:30:25 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:30:25 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <21.191c8e45.299ec9e1@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 10:14:01 AM, JforJames at aol.com writes:

<< Stevens actually worked at The Hartford (stag logo) Insurance Co... >>

oh damn...you're right....I'd spaced it.  Anyway The HArtford, AEtna, 
etc.....they are in the same corporate mode.

pat



From Arielpf123  Fri Feb 15 16:17:02 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:17:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <87.17a022aa.299ed4ce@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 10:05:45 AM, halvard at earthlink.net writes:

<< Did Stevens write any poems *about* Aetna? >>

heck since I had the wrong insurance company I think not!   And I think he 
kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance cronies knew 
about his poetry life.  However I'll bet some of his "thin men of Haddam"  
worked in insurance!

patf



From FanwoodJEL  Fri Feb 15 16:30:43 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:30:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <60.1b10b3b6.299ed803@aol.com>

Au contraire, Steven's work is smattered with sly allusions to his work (yes, 
including the thin men).  Well, the idea, if not the thing. Looks like I'll 
have to do some weekend digging.

Jeffrey Levine

In a message dated 2/15/2002 4:18:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:


> !   And I think he 
> kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance cronies 
> knew 
> about his poetry life.  However I'll bet some of his "thin men of Haddam"  
> worked in insurance!
> 


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From Rsgwynn1  Fri Feb 15 18:57:13 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:57:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <d0.2262228b.299efa59@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/15/2002 3:18:23 PM Central Standard Time, 
Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:


> 
> In a message dated 2/15/02 10:05:45 AM, halvard at earthlink.net writes:
> 
> << Did Stevens write any poems *about* Aetna? >>
> 
> heck since I had the wrong insurance company I think not!   And I think he 
> kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance cronies 
> knew 
> about his poetry life.  However I'll bet some of his "thin men of Haddam"  
> worked in insurance!
> 
> 

I've always wondered what would happen if one compared Stevens's business 
correspondence to his poetry.  I'm sure there must have been some interesting 
overlaps in the rhetoric, but apparently none of his business correspondence 
survives.
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From JforJames  Fri Feb 15 19:15:37 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:15:37 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <74.18288ca6.299efea9@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 6:59:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes:

<< I've always wondered what would happen if one compared Stevens's business 
 correspondence to his poetry.  I'm sure there must have been some 
interesting 
 overlaps in the rhetoric, but apparently none of his business correspondence 
 survives.
  >>
Or in his drafting of insurance contracts/bonds...despite their legalese, 
some lovely felicities of language must reside therein.
Finnegan



From jholmes  Fri Feb 15 20:57:10 2002
From: jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:57:10 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] working (class) poetry
Message-ID: <sc6d5a0f.055@athena.boisestate.edu>

Catherine, thanks for the recognition. These arguments always piss me
off because I suspect they really arise from some benighted and
self-important executive's fear that his poetry isn't taken seriously
ENOUGH because he is (or was) a wealthy executive. Tant pis, I say. The
complaints don't seem to come from the grunt workers who write poems,
the ones who do what this elite crowd terms "real work."

In my experience, the only difference between academe and corporate life
(aside from the obvious economic one) is that at appraisal time, you get
credit for having written poetry if you're an academic. Those who posit
loads of free time for professors have no basis of comparison except
legend, methinks. And for those of us who've worked 9-2-5, believe me,
there's no romance in working your body to the point of exhaustion five
days a week. Paul, if you were cranking out the poems while working as a
county pipe line inspector, good for you. I didn't have the
qualifications for such a position. 

I'm grateful for good poetry; I don't give a shit what the poet was
doing to support the writing of it. Debates like these are ultimately
ridiculous. In fact, they're ridiculous from the beginning. They're not
about poetry.

Janet



From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 21:57:06 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:57:06 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
References: <b8.22df2665.299e7ebb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6DCA80.77943DE@earthlink.net>

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From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:14:27 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:14:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
References: <sc6d0aaf.051@gwise.louisville.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6DCE8E.549A8859@earthlink.net>


Alan C Golding wrote:

> Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
> stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and people in
> academia.  Nor do I quite understand why Ferlinghetti's bookstore
> management and Jay Laughlin's publishing somehow don't count as real
> jobs.  Next time I'm up at 2 a.m. grading 40 papers, I must remind
> myself I'm not really working.

I don't think I said working in academia was not a "real" job, nor would I
(having had a brief stint as a teaching assistant years ago;  that was
probably the hardest job I've ever had).  But it seems to me people in
academia, or people who work in bookstores or publishing, have at least a
closer connection to the world of books and ideas than I do in my office
job.  When I bring books in to read on my lunch hour, I am invariably asked
if I am taking a class (I work at a University), and when I say no, the
asker is usually baffled as to why I would want to read something if I
weren't.  I doubt that would happen to someone managing a bookstore.
Working in an academic job is very hard, probably much harder than what I
do, but there's a certain emotional disconnect between what I do all day
every day and what I'm really interested in which makes it perhaps harder
to bear than an academic job.  (I didn't mean to imply translation is not
hard work, either.  But it would be delightfully hard.)

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:20:55 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:20:55 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
References: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202151350020.11122-100000@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <3C6DD011.A75A7E36@earthlink.net>


Jordan Davis wrote:

> Am I wrong to hear a politics stirring in this ressentiment?
>
> So many poets gravitate to graduate school -- it's a who-moved-my-cheese
> problem, though; my professor has a good life, or something like it, why
> can't I get that too?

None of the people I knew in graduate school thought our professors had a
ticket to "the good life."  They mainly seemed overworked, underpaid,
underinsured, went to far too many meetings, and either had to go on
sabbaticals or quit their jobs to concentrate on their own writing.  Many of
them complained privately about the politics of the department.  But we
realized at least it was a job that would allow you to stay in some contact
with the world of ideas and writing.  Then in about 1996 when I was due to
graduate, the job market started drying up to such an extreme most of the
people I knew are still trying to get adjunct jobs, and those who have them
count themselves lucky.

I'm a bit frustrated here because I think people are not reacting to what I
actually said.  Since I work in an office job that was why I discounted, to me,
such jobs like managing a bookstore and working at a publishing company (or for
that matter editing a literary magazine, teaching freshman comp, and so on, and
so on).  I don't think I said at any point "those are not real jobs and the
people who have them are not really working."  I did make a comment about
Merwin working on translations because, while I don't doubt he worked hard, it
is _not the same thing emotionally_ as working an eight-hour-a-day job doing
something you're not connected do.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:23:28 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:23:28 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGCEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6DD0AA.9FE090C1@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:

> I'm surprised now not to have thought earlier of Bernadette Mayer
> (one below), Gary Snyder (one below), and even Frank O'Hara,
> who wrote poems on the fly, being an art critic and later a curator
> at MOMA, and even Ashbery, who, I guess, earned his living
> from art criticism and translation before taking up the ease of
> academic living.

Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but how
on earth would you do it writing art criticism?

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:25:28 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:25:28 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
References: <200202151837.g1FIbxR65450@mx5.mx.voyager.net> <005501c1b658$fec6c020$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>
Message-ID: <3C6DD121.D96CB6A0@earthlink.net>


Bob Grumman wrote:

> > >Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
> > >stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and people in
> > >academia.
>
> I'm sure good teachers work very hard--but they have huge amounts of time
> off
> that people with non-teaching jobs don't have.

I'll probably be sorry I said this, but teachers also tend to have free hours
during the day which can be used for writing -- it's a lot more difficult for
me to write in the evening when I'm tired and there are chores to be down
around the house, but it's frustrating to only try writing on the weekends.
Difficult as teaching was I found the staggered hours a lot easier to cope
with than the feeling you have mortaged the entire day to someone else for a
paycheck.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From grahamd  Fri Feb 15 23:23:56 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:23:56 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Job Interview
Message-ID: <200202160421.g1G4Lao98019@mx4.mx.voyager.net>

I like the literature of work, myself, no matter what color the collar. 
Here's one by William Matthews.

Job Interview

    Think you, if Laura had been Petrarch's wife
    He would have written sonnets all his life?
     DON JUAN, III, 63-4

"Where do you see yourself five years from now?"
the eldest male member (or is "male member"
a redundancy?) of the committee
asked me. "Not here," I thought. A good thing I

speak fluent Fog. I craved that job like some
unappeasable, taunting woman.
What did Byron's friend Hobhouse say after
the wedding? "I felt as if I had buried

a friend." Each day I had that job I felt
the slack leash at my throat and thought what was
its other trick. Better to scorn the job than ask
what I had ever seen in it or think

what pious muck I'd ladled over
the committee. If they believed me, they
deserved me. As luck would have it, the job
lasted me almost but not quite five years.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:36:13 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:36:13 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems re Office Work: Kenneth Fearing, "Now"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEFJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6DD3A5.B3A4A4DA@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:

> Here's a start for you, Moira. There's a lot more in Fearing, I suspect,
> but this will do for starters.

(poem snipped)

That's really nice, Hal....thank you.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:38:22 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:38:22 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Office Poems
References: <193.24d18fb.299e8661@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6DD426.D56EF096@earthlink.net>


Thom424 at aol.com wrote:

> ?You might find this recent collection of some interest. I've included a few
> of the reviews from amazon.com:
>
> A Working Girl Can't Win : And Other Poems by Deborah Garrison

I lost interest in Deborah Garrison when the poetry collection was poufed (with
copious quotations) in "The New Yorker," which apparently she is the poetry
editor of, by A Alvarez with no mention of the connection.  I liked the Roethke,
though.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:39:32 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:39:32 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
References: <62.1aecd8c9.299e988b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6DD46C.755F0B1C@earthlink.net>


Thom424 at aol.com wrote:

> Peter OrseicK & William Coles: WORKING CLASSICS: POEMS OF INDUSTRIAL LIFE
> (1990) and FOR A LIVING: THE POETRY OF WORK (1995), both from University of
> Illinois Press.
> Janet Zandy also edited a couple of working-class women's anthologies, one of
> which is CALLING HOME: WORKING-CLASS WOMEN'S  WRITING (Rutgers, 1990).

Thank you -- that sounds interesting.  I have liked Levine, although not his
most recent collections.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From trbell  Sat Feb 16 03:22:31 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:22:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
References: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202151350020.11122-100000@panix1.panix.com> <3C6DD011.A75A7E36@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <038101c1b6c3$14fa23e0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

> I did make a comment about
> Merwin working on translations because, while I don't doubt he worked
hard, it
> is _not the same thing emotionally_ as working an eight-hour-a-day job
doing
> something you're not connected do.

 Having worked at meaningful and meaningless jobs in and out of poetry,
including time in the academy, I have difficulty with this comment which
does seem to imply either that translating is not emotionally difficult or
that meaningless work is 'bad' in some way.  I have generally found though
that an opportunity to play is an important compnent in my ability to create
and I'm fairly sure there are examples of mindless pursuits leading to
productive work - Kafka is an example even though perhaps extreme.

tom bell





From trbell  Sat Feb 16 03:31:40 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:31:40 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
References: <sc6d0aaf.051@gwise.louisville.edu> <3C6DCE8E.549A8859@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <038701c1b6c4$5c85c380$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

Moira,
     i was just recently fortunately given the opportunity to spend a month
in jial where books were a possession that were prized (and sometimes
physically defended) on a level almost as vehement as smoking materials.  I
was also given as much respect there for my ability to solve crossword
puzzles as i had been when I was an academic and brought in every Monday the
NYT puzzle solve in ink.

tom bell

I do seem somewhat crotchety this evening.  sorry.

tom bell




From cstroffo  Fri Feb 15 23:56:54 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:56:54 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] working (class) poetry
References: <sc6d5a0f.055@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6DE695.F785A4FE@earthlink.net>

Janet, thanks for this---

It's funny, though, for looking at a piece I recently revised from an
"unfinished"
written while in (or half-out of) the NYC freelance (at least half the
'job' is always looking for
another one) "groove," unable to tell whether I was "unable to get," or
"unwilling to hold"
a 9-2-5, and I found this 'stanza', put in quotes within the poem, to call
attention to it
as a voice, if not necessarily a voice I ultimately embrace....

"Just because someone else can keep/ a 9-5 better than you doesn't/
automatically make him a worse artist,/ but it does suck that so many honor
him/
as if it automatically makes him better..." So, a momentary utterance,
could be
applied to "fulltime academics" as well, perhaps--but not a critique, in
any dogmatic
way, as much as to be read in context of the speaker's frustration, a
moment of
bonding with the "you" in the utterance---though someone may want to
distort
it into something like an attack on Stevens, but not me---I have a
love-hate
realationship with his poetry too passionate for some petty day-job thing
to get in the way....

And I just found out Henry Rollins of Black Flag worked in an icecream shop

until he joined that "already established" band....

And, as a joke, sort of, someone once told me that WCW, too, probably
couldn't
have been a doctor TODAY and have devoted as much energy to as much writing

as he did----you know, all the lawsuits a doctor has to arm herself against
today,
and all the pharmeceticals, etc.....

havve a good sabbath,

Chris


Janet Holmes wrote:

> Catherine, thanks for the recognition. These arguments always piss me
> off because I suspect they really arise from some benighted and
> self-important executive's fear that his poetry isn't taken seriously
> ENOUGH because he is (or was) a wealthy executive. Tant pis, I say. The
> complaints don't seem to come from the grunt workers who write poems,
> the ones who do what this elite crowd terms "real work."
>
> In my experience, the only difference between academe and corporate life
> (aside from the obvious economic one) is that at appraisal time, you get
> credit for having written poetry if you're an academic. Those who posit
> loads of free time for professors have no basis of comparison except
> legend, methinks. And for those of us who've worked 9-2-5, believe me,
> there's no romance in working your body to the point of exhaustion five
> days a week. Paul, if you were cranking out the poems while working as a
> county pipe line inspector, good for you. I didn't have the
> qualifications for such a position.
>
> I'm grateful for good poetry; I don't give a shit what the poet was
> doing to support the writing of it. Debates like these are ultimately
> ridiculous. In fact, they're ridiculous from the beginning. They're not
> about poetry.
>
> Janet
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From cstroffo  Fri Feb 15 23:57:16 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:57:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGCEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <3C6DD0AA.9FE090C1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6DE6AB.F0057B79@earthlink.net>

Perhaps because Ashbery got in "from the ground up" as it were....
beginning in new York in the 50s just as it was becoming the "art
capital"
(so legend has it.....)....

Chris

odysseus34 wrote:

> Halvard Johnson wrote:
>
> > I'm surprised now not to have thought earlier of Bernadette Mayer
> > (one below), Gary Snyder (one below), and even Frank O'Hara,
> > who wrote poems on the fly, being an art critic and later a curator
> > at MOMA, and even Ashbery, who, I guess, earned his living
> > from art criticism and translation before taking up the ease of
> > academic living.
>
> Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but how
> on earth would you do it writing art criticism?
>
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From cstroffo  Sat Feb 16 00:01:35 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:01:35 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Job Interview
References: <200202160421.g1G4Lao98019@mx4.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3C6DE7AE.68E7D398@earthlink.net>

Okay on this one---
but, please, don't anybody quote "April Inventory,"
which I know I liked, nd could probably like again,
but just not in the mood now......

Chris

David Graham wrote:

> I like the literature of work, myself, no matter what color the collar.
> Here's one by William Matthews.
>
> Job Interview
>
>     Think you, if Laura had been Petrarch's wife
>     He would have written sonnets all his life?
>      DON JUAN, III, 63-4
>
> "Where do you see yourself five years from now?"
> the eldest male member (or is "male member"
> a redundancy?) of the committee
> asked me. "Not here," I thought. A good thing I
>
> speak fluent Fog. I craved that job like some
> unappeasable, taunting woman.
> What did Byron's friend Hobhouse say after
> the wedding? "I felt as if I had buried
>
> a friend." Each day I had that job I felt
> the slack leash at my throat and thought what was
> its other trick. Better to scorn the job than ask
> what I had ever seen in it or think
>
> what pious muck I'd ladled over
> the committee. If they believed me, they
> deserved me. As luck would have it, the job
> lasted me almost but not quite five years.
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Feb 15 23:58:48 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:58:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <20020216045848.9AEBF2755@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From halvard  Sat Feb 16 00:09:35 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:09:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <3C6DD0AA.9FE090C1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGLEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

You write; you get paid.

Hal

{    Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but how
{    on earth would you do it writing art criticism?
{    
{    Moira Russell
{    Seattle, WA




From roger  Sat Feb 16 00:34:49 2002
From: roger (Roger Greenwald)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:34:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry of work
Message-ID: <3.0.3.16.20020216003449.088fbfca@pop.chass.utoronto.ca>

Hello, Everyone

I joined the list recently. Have just read digests 658, 659, 660.
Thanks for the poems that various people have included in their
postings over the past few days. It's been great to have
these suddenly turn up on my monitor--favorites from
other people's wide reading, and occasional glimpses into the work of
poets whose books I don't have (or have but haven't read much of!).

My contribution to the listing of poetry about work
is the followng (apologies if it was mentioned earlier
in the thread):

Antler. FACTORY. City Lights, 1980

A book-length suite. And not just about work, but about the
relation between work and poetry

Roger Greenwald

 



From Cadaly  Sat Feb 16 00:48:02 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:48:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
Message-ID: <174.3ab642c.299f4c92@aol.com>

Tom Bell, Do you mean Kafka's trips to the nudist colony? I dunno if I could 
stomach AWP nude on Bourbon Street.

Chris, Warhol's Cherry Vanilla had a ice cream shop in Palm Beach for quite 
some time.

Rgds,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From trbell  Sat Feb 16 04:40:20 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 03:40:20 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
References: <174.3ab642c.299f4c92@aol.com>
Message-ID: <03c101c1b6cd$f3fbc940$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

does sound though like the kind of mindless fantasy that could produce some interesting flights of whimsy.

tom


  Tom Bell, Do you mean Kafka's trips to the nudist colony? I dunno if I could stomach AWP nude on Bourbon Street.
  Rgds,
  Catherine Daly
  cadaly at pacbell.net 
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From Arielpf123  Sat Feb 16 07:39:46 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 07:39:46 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <141.99ff6b7.299fad12@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 11:59:37 PM, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com 
writes:

<< Yeah, Pat,

They all have actuarial tables,
statistical data, retirement benefits,
if you survive 'till then, 
death benefits to your survivors, 
if you don't! >>

Well actually the point I was making about "work" being conducive or not to 
poetry writing is that, in my  experience, there have been certain types of 
jobs that seem to access those areas of my mind/brain that trigger poetry; 
and other types that deaden my  mind or turn it to analytical concerns in a 
way that makes it difficult or impossible to write. Hasn't anyone else had 
this experience?  

For me, insurance work was a deadener; which is why I've wondered aloud how 
Stevens did it.  Also, being a social worker/therapist was a deadener for me 
(though I'd have thought otherwise).   On the other hand, when I was a Family 
Life Educator designing and giving workshops, poetry flowed.  And any kind of 
what a friend of mine (Greg Joly) called "Hand Labor" in his chapbook of that 
name seemed to stimulate poetry.   It has nothing to do with the amount of 
time available, but with a kind of channel the mind gets into.  At the 
current time, I am retired; teach one poetry class a week, think, read and 
try to write poetry constantly and feel totally numbly blocked.

pat fargnoli



From daisyf1  Sat Feb 16 09:22:21 2002
From: daisyf1 (Daisy Fried)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:22:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] worker poetry
Message-ID: <20020216.092222.-133673.0.daisyf1@juno.com>

Story Line Press put out a first book by a poet named Ginger Andrews a
year or two ago, winner of the Roerich Prize, all about work. Can't
remember the title. Deborah Garrison is now poetry editor of...Knopf? one
of those big houses...and was never the poetry editor of the NYer, as far
as I know--that would be Alice Quinn--though I believe Garrison did work
as an editor at the NYer which probably helped her get her poems
published in the NYer. Good for her. I was disappointed in A Working Girl
Can't Win on the basis of the poems themselves--I wanted them to be
sharper, wittier, better-written--they were fun, but not as fun as they
could have been, to me--but I don't think it's fair to have or lose
interest in poetry or a poet because of how successful s/he is or what
connections s/he has or who poufs her...what's she supposed to do, say
'no, don't pouf me, I'd rather be unknown and sell no books'?

Daisy Fried

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:53:03 -0500 new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
writes:
> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
> 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: Merwin (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
>    2. Re: Merwin (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
>    3. Re: Merwin (JforJames at aol.com)
>    4. working (class) poetry (Janet Holmes)
>    5. Re: Stevens (odysseus34)
>    6. Re: Poetry and/of Work (odysseus34)
>    7. Re: Work + Poetry = Politics? (odysseus34)
>    8. Re: Re:  Poetry and/of Work (odysseus34)
>    9. Re: Re:  Poetry and/of Work (odysseus34)
>   10. Job Interview (David Graham)
>   11. Re: Poems re Office Work: Kenneth Fearing, "Now" (odysseus34)
>   12. Re: RE: Office Poems (odysseus34)
>   13. Re: Poetry of work (odysseus34)
>   14. Re: Work + Poetry = Politics? (trbell at home.com)
>   15. Re: Poetry and/of Work (trbell at home.com)
>   16. Re: working (class) poetry (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:30:43 EST
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Merwin
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> --part1_60.1b10b3b6.299ed803_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> Au contraire, Steven's work is smattered with sly allusions to his 
> work (yes, 
> including the thin men).  Well, the idea, if not the thing. Looks 
> like I'll 
> have to do some weekend digging.
> 
> Jeffrey Levine
> 
> In a message dated 2/15/2002 4:18:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:
> 
> 
> > !   And I think he 
> > kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance 
> cronies 
> > knew 
> > about his poetry life.  However I'll bet some of his "thin men of 
> Haddam"  
> > worked in insurance!
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> --part1_60.1b10b3b6.299ed803_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Au contraire, 
> Steven's work is smattered with sly allusions to his work (yes, 
> including the thin men). &nbsp;Well, the idea, if not the thing. 
> Looks like I'll have to do some weekend digging.
> <BR>
> <BR>Jeffrey Levine
> <BR>
> <BR>In a message dated 2/15/2002 4:18:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; 
> MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">! 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;And I think he 
> <BR>kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance 
> cronies knew 
> <BR>about his poetry life. &nbsp;However I'll bet some of his "thin 
> men of Haddam" &nbsp;
> <BR>worked in insurance!
> <BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" 
> FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
> <BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" 
> FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
> <BR></FONT></HTML>
> 
> --part1_60.1b10b3b6.299ed803_boundary--
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:57:13 EST
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Merwin
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> --part1_d0.2262228b.299efa59_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> In a message dated 2/15/2002 3:18:23 PM Central Standard Time, 
> Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:
> 
> 
> > 
> > In a message dated 2/15/02 10:05:45 AM, halvard at earthlink.net 
> writes:
> > 
> > << Did Stevens write any poems *about* Aetna? >>
> > 
> > heck since I had the wrong insurance company I think not!   And I 
> think he 
> > kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance 
> cronies 
> > knew 
> > about his poetry life.  However I'll bet some of his "thin men of 
> Haddam"  
> > worked in insurance!
> > 
> > 
> 
> I've always wondered what would happen if one compared Stevens's 
> business 
> correspondence to his poetry.  I'm sure there must have been some 
> interesting 
> overlaps in the rhetoric, but apparently none of his business 
> correspondence 
> survives.
> 
> --part1_d0.2262228b.299efa59_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" 
> FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 2/15/2002 3:18:23 
> PM Central Standard Time, Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:
> <BR>
> <BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" 
> FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; 
> MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
> <BR>In a message dated 2/15/02 10:05:45 AM, halvard at earthlink.net 
> writes:
> <BR>
> <BR>&lt;&lt; Did Stevens write any poems *about* Aetna? &gt;&gt;
> <BR>
> <BR>heck since I had the wrong insurance company I think not! 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;And I think he 
> <BR>kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance 
> cronies knew 
> <BR>about his poetry life. &nbsp;However I'll bet some of his "thin 
> men of Haddam" &nbsp;
> <BR>worked in insurance!
> <BR>
> <BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" 
> FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
> <BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times 
> New Roman" LANG="0">
> <BR>I've always wondered what would happen if one compared Stevens's 
> business correspondence to his poetry. &nbsp;I'm sure there must 
> have been some interesting overlaps in the rhetoric, but apparently 
> none of his business correspondence survives.</FONT></HTML>
> 
> --part1_d0.2262228b.299efa59_boundary--
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 3
> From: JforJames at aol.com
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:15:37 EST
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Merwin
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> In a message dated 2/15/02 6:59:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
> writes:
> 
> << I've always wondered what would happen if one compared Stevens's 
> business 
>  correspondence to his poetry.  I'm sure there must have been some 
> interesting 
>  overlaps in the rhetoric, but apparently none of his business 
> correspondence 
>  survives.
>   >>
> Or in his drafting of insurance contracts/bonds...despite their 
> legalese, 
> some lovely felicities of language must reside therein.
> Finnegan
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:57:10 -0700
> From: "Janet Holmes" <jholmes at boisestate.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] working (class) poetry
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> Catherine, thanks for the recognition. These arguments always piss 
> me
> off because I suspect they really arise from some benighted and
> self-important executive's fear that his poetry isn't taken 
> seriously
> ENOUGH because he is (or was) a wealthy executive. Tant pis, I say. 
> The
> complaints don't seem to come from the grunt workers who write 
> poems,
> the ones who do what this elite crowd terms "real work."
> 
> In my experience, the only difference between academe and corporate 
> life
> (aside from the obvious economic one) is that at appraisal time, you 
> get
> credit for having written poetry if you're an academic. Those who 
> posit
> loads of free time for professors have no basis of comparison except
> legend, methinks. And for those of us who've worked 9-2-5, believe 
> me,
> there's no romance in working your body to the point of exhaustion 
> five
> days a week. Paul, if you were cranking out the poems while working 
> as a
> county pipe line inspector, good for you. I didn't have the
> qualifications for such a position. 
> 
> I'm grateful for good poetry; I don't give a shit what the poet was
> doing to support the writing of it. Debates like these are 
> ultimately
> ridiculous. In fact, they're ridiculous from the beginning. They're 
> not
> about poetry.
> 
> Janet
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:57:06 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stevens
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> <HTML>
> 
> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT 
> SIZE=-1>Incidentally,
> in the biographies and letters I've seen there doesn't seem to 
> be</FONT></FONT></FONT>
> <BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>any 
> indication
> that Stevens regretted his life as VP of an insurance 
> company</FONT></FONT></FONT>
> <BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>(he had a 
> law
> degree but he didn't practice law per se...he did bonding 
> work</FONT></FONT></FONT>
> <BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>for The 
> Hartford
> which often involves contract drafting and claims that 
> come</FONT></FONT></FONT>
> <BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>out of 
> litigation).
> In fact I think he&nbsp; was rather pleased with himself that 
> he'd</FONT></FONT></FONT>
> <BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>garnered 
> such
> a reputation while not being fully engaged in a literary 
> life.</FONT></FONT></FONT>
> <BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT 
> SIZE=-1>Finnegan</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
> Huh, that sounds more like Eliot....admittedly, being the VP of an 
> insurance
> company or a senior loan officer at a bank is a lot more pleasant 
> than
> most of the 9-5 gigs people work.
> 
> <P>Didn't Stevens also dictate his poems to his secretary, or am I 
> remembering
> wrong?
> 
> <P>Moira Russell
> <BR>Seattle, WA
> <BR>&nbsp;</HTML>
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:14:27 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Alan C Golding wrote:
> 
> > Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
> > stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and 
> people in
> > academia.  Nor do I quite understand why Ferlinghetti's bookstore
> > management and Jay Laughlin's publishing somehow don't count as 
> real
> > jobs.  Next time I'm up at 2 a.m. grading 40 papers, I must remind
> > myself I'm not really working.
> 
> I don't think I said working in academia was not a "real" job, nor 
> would I
> (having had a brief stint as a teaching assistant years ago;  that 
> was
> probably the hardest job I've ever had).  But it seems to me people 
> in
> academia, or people who work in bookstores or publishing, have at 
> least a
> closer connection to the world of books and ideas than I do in my 
> office
> job.  When I bring books in to read on my lunch hour, I am 
> invariably asked
> if I am taking a class (I work at a University), and when I say no, 
> the
> asker is usually baffled as to why I would want to read something if 
> I
> weren't.  I doubt that would happen to someone managing a bookstore.
> Working in an academic job is very hard, probably much harder than 
> what I
> do, but there's a certain emotional disconnect between what I do all 
> day
> every day and what I'm really interested in which makes it perhaps 
> harder
> to bear than an academic job.  (I didn't mean to imply translation 
> is not
> hard work, either.  But it would be delightfully hard.)
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:20:55 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Jordan Davis wrote:
> 
> > Am I wrong to hear a politics stirring in this ressentiment?
> >
> > So many poets gravitate to graduate school -- it's a 
> who-moved-my-cheese
> > problem, though; my professor has a good life, or something like 
> it, why
> > can't I get that too?
> 
> None of the people I knew in graduate school thought our professors 
> had a
> ticket to "the good life."  They mainly seemed overworked, 
> underpaid,
> underinsured, went to far too many meetings, and either had to go on
> sabbaticals or quit their jobs to concentrate on their own writing.  
> Many of
> them complained privately about the politics of the department.  But 
> we
> realized at least it was a job that would allow you to stay in some 
> contact
> with the world of ideas and writing.  Then in about 1996 when I was 
> due to
> graduate, the job market started drying up to such an extreme most 
> of the
> people I knew are still trying to get adjunct jobs, and those who 
> have them
> count themselves lucky.
> 
> I'm a bit frustrated here because I think people are not reacting to 
> what I
> actually said.  Since I work in an office job that was why I 
> discounted, to me,
> such jobs like managing a bookstore and working at a publishing 
> company (or for
> that matter editing a literary magazine, teaching freshman comp, and 
> so on, and
> so on).  I don't think I said at any point "those are not real jobs 
> and the
> people who have them are not really working."  I did make a comment 
> about
> Merwin working on translations because, while I don't doubt he 
> worked hard, it
> is _not the same thing emotionally_ as working an eight-hour-a-day 
> job doing
> something you're not connected do.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:23:28 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> > I'm surprised now not to have thought earlier of Bernadette Mayer
> > (one below), Gary Snyder (one below), and even Frank O'Hara,
> > who wrote poems on the fly, being an art critic and later a 
> curator
> > at MOMA, and even Ashbery, who, I guess, earned his living
> > from art criticism and translation before taking up the ease of
> > academic living.
> 
> Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but 
> how
> on earth would you do it writing art criticism?
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:25:28 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> > > >Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
> > > >stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and 
> people in
> > > >academia.
> >
> > I'm sure good teachers work very hard--but they have huge amounts 
> of time
> > off
> > that people with non-teaching jobs don't have.
> 
> I'll probably be sorry I said this, but teachers also tend to have 
> free hours
> during the day which can be used for writing -- it's a lot more 
> difficult for
> me to write in the evening when I'm tired and there are chores to be 
> down
> around the house, but it's frustrating to only try writing on the 
> weekends.
> Difficult as teaching was I found the staggered hours a lot easier 
> to cope
> with than the feeling you have mortaged the entire day to someone 
> else for a
> paycheck.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:23:56 -0600
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
> To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Job Interview
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> I like the literature of work, myself, no matter what color the 
> collar. 
> Here's one by William Matthews.
> 
> Job Interview
> 
>     Think you, if Laura had been Petrarch's wife
>     He would have written sonnets all his life?
>      DON JUAN, III, 63-4
> 
> "Where do you see yourself five years from now?"
> the eldest male member (or is "male member"
> a redundancy?) of the committee
> asked me. "Not here," I thought. A good thing I
> 
> speak fluent Fog. I craved that job like some
> unappeasable, taunting woman.
> What did Byron's friend Hobhouse say after
> the wedding? "I felt as if I had buried
> 
> a friend." Each day I had that job I felt
> the slack leash at my throat and thought what was
> its other trick. Better to scorn the job than ask
> what I had ever seen in it or think
> 
> what pious muck I'd ladled over
> the committee. If they believed me, they
> deserved me. As luck would have it, the job
> lasted me almost but not quite five years.
> 
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:36:13 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems re Office Work: Kenneth Fearing, 
> "Now"
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Here's a start for you, Moira. There's a lot more in Fearing, I 
> suspect,
> > but this will do for starters.
> 
> (poem snipped)
> 
> That's really nice, Hal....thank you.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:38:22 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Office Poems
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Thom424 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> > ?You might find this recent collection of some interest. I've 
> included a few
> > of the reviews from amazon.com:
> >
> > A Working Girl Can't Win : And Other Poems by Deborah Garrison
> 
> I lost interest in Deborah Garrison when the poetry collection was 
> poufed (with
> copious quotations) in "The New Yorker," which apparently she is the 
> poetry
> editor of, by A Alvarez with no mention of the connection.  I liked 
> the Roethke,
> though.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 13
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:39:32 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Thom424 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Peter OrseicK & William Coles: WORKING CLASSICS: POEMS OF 
> INDUSTRIAL LIFE
> > (1990) and FOR A LIVING: THE POETRY OF WORK (1995), both from 
> University of
> > Illinois Press.
> > Janet Zandy also edited a couple of working-class women's 
> anthologies, one of
> > which is CALLING HOME: WORKING-CLASS WOMEN'S  WRITING (Rutgers, 
> 1990).
> 
> Thank you -- that sounds interesting.  I have liked Levine, although 
> not his
> most recent collections.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 14
> From: <trbell at home.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:22:31 -0600
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> > I did make a comment about
> > Merwin working on translations because, while I don't doubt he 
> worked
> hard, it
> > is _not the same thing emotionally_ as working an eight-hour-a-day 
> job
> doing
> > something you're not connected do.
> 
>  Having worked at meaningful and meaningless jobs in and out of 
> poetry,
> including time in the academy, I have difficulty with this comment 
> which
> does seem to imply either that translating is not emotionally 
> difficult or
> that meaningless work is 'bad' in some way.  I have generally found 
> though
> that an opportunity to play is an important compnent in my ability 
> to create
> and I'm fairly sure there are examples of mindless pursuits leading 
> to
> productive work - Kafka is an example even though perhaps extreme.
> 
> tom bell
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 15
> From: <trbell at home.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:31:40 -0600
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> Moira,
>      i was just recently fortunately given the opportunity to spend 
> a month
> in jial where books were a possession that were prized (and 
> sometimes
> physically defended) on a level almost as vehement as smoking 
> materials.  I
> was also given as much respect there for my ability to solve 
> crossword
> puzzles as i had been when I was an academic and brought in every 
> Monday the
> NYT puzzle solve in ink.
> 
> tom bell
> 
> I do seem somewhat crotchety this evening.  sorry.
> 
> tom bell
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 16
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:56:54 -0800
> From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] working (class) poetry
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> Janet, thanks for this---
> 
> It's funny, though, for looking at a piece I recently revised from 
> an
> "unfinished"
> written while in (or half-out of) the NYC freelance (at least half 
> the
> 'job' is always looking for
> another one) "groove," unable to tell whether I was "unable to get," 
> or
> "unwilling to hold"
> a 9-2-5, and I found this 'stanza', put in quotes within the poem, 
> to call
> attention to it
> as a voice, if not necessarily a voice I ultimately embrace....
> 
> "Just because someone else can keep/ a 9-5 better than you doesn't/
> automatically make him a worse artist,/ but it does suck that so 
> many honor
> him/
> as if it automatically makes him better..." So, a momentary 
> utterance,
> could be
> applied to "fulltime academics" as well, perhaps--but not a 
> critique, in
> any dogmatic
> way, as much as to be read in context of the speaker's frustration, 
> a
> moment of
> bonding with the "you" in the utterance---though someone may want to
> distort
> it into something like an attack on Stevens, but not me---I have a
> love-hate
> realationship with his poetry too passionate for some petty day-job 
> thing
> to get in the way....
> 
> And I just found out Henry Rollins of Black Flag worked in an 
> icecream shop
> 
> until he joined that "already established" band....
> 
> And, as a joke, sort of, someone once told me that WCW, too, 
> probably
> couldn't
> have been a doctor TODAY and have devoted as much energy to as much 
> writing
> 
> as he did----you know, all the lawsuits a doctor has to arm herself 
> against
> today,
> and all the pharmeceticals, etc.....
> 
> havve a good sabbath,
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> Janet Holmes wrote:
> 
> > Catherine, thanks for the recognition. These arguments always piss 
> me
> > off because I suspect they really arise from some benighted and
> > self-important executive's fear that his poetry isn't taken 
> seriously
> > ENOUGH because he is (or was) a wealthy executive. Tant pis, I 
> say. The
> > complaints don't seem to come from the grunt workers who write 
> poems,
> > the ones who do what this elite crowd terms "real work."
> >
> > In my experience, the only difference between academe and 
> corporate life
> > (aside from the obvious economic one) is that at appraisal time, 
> you get
> > credit for having written poetry if you're an academic. Those who 
> posit
> > loads of free time for professors have no basis of comparison 
> except
> > legend, methinks. And for those of us who've worked 9-2-5, believe 
> me,
> > there's no romance in working your body to the point of exhaustion 
> five
> > days a week. Paul, if you were cranking out the poems while 
> working as a
> > county pipe line inspector, good for you. I didn't have the
> > qualifications for such a position.
> >
> > I'm grateful for good poetry; I don't give a shit what the poet 
> was
> > doing to support the writing of it. Debates like these are 
> ultimately
> > ridiculous. In fact, they're ridiculous from the beginning. 
> They're not
> > about poetry.
> >
> > Janet
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> End of New-Poetry Digest



From halvard  Sat Feb 16 09:51:28 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:51:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGLEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEGNEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Sorry about the terseness of last night's response, Moira. I apologize
for that. I didn't have the energy to go upstairs to find the book I
needed to really answer your question: to wit, *Reported Sightings:
Art Chronicles 1957-1987*, a large assemblage of Ashbery's
writings on art. According to the dustjacket, Ashbery's thirty-year
career as an art critic goes something like this: first the Paris *Herald
Tribune*, then executive editor of ARTnews, then critic for *New York*
and later for *Newsweek*. The collection (ed. David Bergman) runs
to just over 400 pages.

Hal

{    You write; you get paid.
{    
{    Hal
{    
{    {    Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but how
{    {    on earth would you do it writing art criticism?
{    {    
{    {    Moira Russell
{    {    Seattle, WA
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    



From JforJames  Sat Feb 16 10:51:08 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:51:08 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] working (class) poetry
Message-ID: <12d.c95ea43.299fd9ec@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 8:56:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jholmes at boisestate.edu writes:

<< m grateful for good poetry; I don't give a shit what the poet was
 doing to support the writing of it. Debates like these are ultimately
 ridiculous. In fact, they're ridiculous from the beginning. They're not
 about poetry. >>

Janet, of course the poetry is the thing we value...but I think it's
fair to look at the life as it informs the art, from a variety of 
perspectives:
employment, societal class, education, sexual interests, family relationships,
cultural milieu, politics, etc. If we try to make of the art the sum total of 
these things...then we go wrong. But let's say 80%(a WAG percentage of poets 
who
are employed in educational institutions, primarily in English Depts.) 
of practicing poets were engaged in the data processing field...would that 
not be of interest and a fair subject of discussion? 
Non sequitur: This week Emily Grosholz is coming to Trinity College in 
Hartford to read, and give a talk...she teaches Philosophy at UPenn, I 
believe. 
Finnegan 



From FanwoodJEL  Sat Feb 16 11:13:34 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:13:34 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <135.985213e.299fdf2e@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/16/2002 7:41:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:


> Well actually the point I was making about "work" being conducive or not to 
> poetry writing is that, in my  experience, there have been certain types of 
> jobs that seem to access those areas of my mind/brain that trigger poetry; 
> and other types that deaden my  mind or turn it to analytical concerns in a 
> way that makes it difficult or impossible to write. Hasn't anyone else had 
> this experience?  
> 
> For me, insurance work was a deadener; which is why I've wondered aloud how 
> Stevens did it.  Also, being a social worker/therapist was a deadener for 
> me 
> (though I'd have thought otherwise).   On the other hand, when I was a 
> Family 
> Life Educator designing and giving workshops, poetry flowed.  And any kind 
> of 
> what a friend of mine (Greg Joly) called "Hand Labor" in his chapbook of 
> that 
> name seemed to stimulate poetry.   It has nothing to do with the amount of 
> time available, but with a kind of channel the mind gets into.  At the 
> current time, I am retired; teach one poetry class a week, think, read and 
> try to write poetry constantly and feel totally numbly blocked.
> 
> pat fargnoli
> 

Well, interesting you say that because I've had just the opposite experience. 
I find it almost impossible to write while teaching because I can't stop 
thinking about what I'm reading, designing, communicating, planning. And 
because, where's the time? (Though teaching does, I find, trigger poetry, and 
feeds well periods of prolific production in the interstices -- vacations and 
summers.) 

Contrast that with 25 years, on-and-off, in the dizzyingly unsatisfying world 
of corporate law, where writing was the antidote to daily dullness. You've 
seen the TV commercial where young jr. exec. turks sit around a board table, 
listening to someone drone relentlessly about last month's numbers, this 
month's numbers, next month's numbers? I was the guy writing poems on yellow 
pad. Just don't ask me about the numbers. Completely paradoxical, I know, but 
as Satan said, the mind is its own place. Still, Pat, thing to do is come 
with me to the next board meeting (I still do some occasional consulting). 
Them poems'll just tumble out.

Jeffrey Levine
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From grahamd  Sat Feb 16 11:40:17 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:40:17 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art Chronicles
Message-ID: <200202161639.g1GGd6q34239@mx5.mx.voyager.net>

I enjoy Ashbery's art criticism.  Don't suppose it should have surprised me,
but it sort of did:  he's a completely straightforward, lucid journalist. 
No "poetic" flights in his art crit that I've seen.  

Straying even further from poetry, I would also recommend John Updike's book
of art criticism, *Just Looking*.  

Mark Strand is another--I like his art criticism a lot more than his poetry.
 

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
>Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002, 8:51 AM
>

>Sorry about the terseness of last night's response, Moira. I apologize
>for that. I didn't have the energy to go upstairs to find the book I
>needed to really answer your question: to wit, *Reported Sightings:
>Art Chronicles 1957-1987*, a large assemblage of Ashbery's
>writings on art. According to the dustjacket, Ashbery's thirty-year
>career as an art critic goes something like this: first the Paris *Herald
>Tribune*, then executive editor of ARTnews, then critic for *New York*
>and later for *Newsweek*. The collection (ed. David Bergman) runs
>to just over 400 pages.
>
>Hal
>
>{    You write; you get paid.
>{    
>{    Hal
>{    
>{    {    Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but how
>{    {    on earth would you do it writing art criticism?
>{    {    
>{    {    Moira Russell
>{    {    Seattle, WA
>{    
>{    _______________________________________________
>{    New-Poetry mailing list
>{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>{    
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From cstroffo  Sat Feb 16 13:52:54 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:52:54 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art Chronicles
References: <200202161639.g1GGd6q34239@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3C6EAA86.BAC2DDAE@earthlink.net>

David---

I think much the same can be said for his recent book, (of lit. criticism?---that's
not really right?), Other Traditions too--I was kinda surprised, was perhaps
expecting something more intense, like Stevens' The Necessary Angel or something,
and so it was almost disappointing in its straightforward appeals to a "plain
reader"
at least from the perspective of one who loves much  of Ashbery's poetry, but
then again, the operative word here is "almost"--for the relative lack of "poetic"
flights are interesting, and provide an interesting complement to his poetry
and maybe even can allow some people "entry" to his work who otherwise
might feel frozen out?

Chris

David Graham wrote:

> I enjoy Ashbery's art criticism.  Don't suppose it should have surprised me,
> but it sort of did:  he's a completely straightforward, lucid journalist.
> No "poetic" flights in his art crit that I've seen.
>
> Straying even further from poetry, I would also recommend John Updike's book
> of art criticism, *Just Looking*.
>
> Mark Strand is another--I like his art criticism a lot more than his poetry.
>
>
> David Graham
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
>
> ----------
> >From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
> >Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002, 8:51 AM
> >
>
> >Sorry about the terseness of last night's response, Moira. I apologize
> >for that. I didn't have the energy to go upstairs to find the book I
> >needed to really answer your question: to wit, *Reported Sightings:
> >Art Chronicles 1957-1987*, a large assemblage of Ashbery's
> >writings on art. According to the dustjacket, Ashbery's thirty-year
> >career as an art critic goes something like this: first the Paris *Herald
> >Tribune*, then executive editor of ARTnews, then critic for *New York*
> >and later for *Newsweek*. The collection (ed. David Bergman) runs
> >to just over 400 pages.
> >
> >Hal
> >
> >{    You write; you get paid.
> >{
> >{    Hal
> >{
> >{    {    Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but how
> >{    {    on earth would you do it writing art criticism?
> >{    {
> >{    {    Moira Russell
> >{    {    Seattle, WA
> >{
> >{    _______________________________________________
> >{    New-Poetry mailing list
> >{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >{
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From cstroffo  Sat Feb 16 13:53:04 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:53:04 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
References: <135.985213e.299fdf2e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6EAA91.D86896A8@earthlink.net>

Jeffrey----

great points----it seems sensibility, temperament, mood, the kind of
poetry one writes,
or is into writing at that time, would all then be factors
involved----Ever read Auden's
short little, "Work, Play, and Labour" essay; it's great because of his
relativist sense
of what could be "unalienated labour" depending on the person (not, say,
privileging,
white collar over blue...). Ever try to adjust the kind of poetry you
write depending on
the work, or other environment-related, situations? I know I have had
to---not that I'm
actually complaining about it; it's kind of interesting that a poem I
would have scorned
when I was an adjunct in Philly I found myself writing when a
factchecker in NYC....

Chris

FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/16/2002 7:41:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:
>
>
>
>> Well actually the point I was making about "work" being conducive or
>> not to
>> poetry writing is that, in my  experience, there have been certain
>> types of
>> jobs that seem to access those areas of my mind/brain that trigger
>> poetry;
>> and other types that deaden my  mind or turn it to analytical
>> concerns in a
>> way that makes it difficult or impossible to write. Hasn't anyone
>> else had
>> this experience?
>>
>> For me, insurance work was a deadener; which is why I've wondered
>> aloud how
>> Stevens did it.  Also, being a social worker/therapist was a
>> deadener for me
>> (though I'd have thought otherwise).   On the other hand, when I was
>> a Family
>> Life Educator designing and giving workshops, poetry flowed.  And
>> any kind of
>> what a friend of mine (Greg Joly) called "Hand Labor" in his
>> chapbook of that
>> name seemed to stimulate poetry.   It has nothing to do with the
>> amount of
>> time available, but with a kind of channel the mind gets into.  At
>> the
>> current time, I am retired; teach one poetry class a week, think,
>> read and
>> try to write poetry constantly and feel totally numbly blocked.
>>
>> pat fargnoli
>
> Well, interesting you say that because I've had just the opposite
> experience. I find it almost impossible to write while teaching
> because I can't stop thinking about what I'm reading, designing,
> communicating, planning. And because, where's the time? (Though
> teaching does, I find, trigger poetry, and feeds well periods of
> prolific production in the interstices -- vacations and summers.)
>
> Contrast that with 25 years, on-and-off, in the dizzyingly
> unsatisfying world of corporate law, where writing was the antidote to
> daily dullness. You've seen the TV commercial where young jr. exec.
> turks sit around a board table, listening to someone drone
> relentlessly about last month's numbers, this month's numbers, next
> month's numbers? I was the guy writing poems on yellow pad. Just don't
> ask me about the numbers. Completely paradoxical, I know, but as Satan
> said, the mind is its own place. Still, Pat, thing to do is come with
> me to the next board meeting (I still do some occasional consulting).
> Them poems'll just tumble out.
>
> Jeffrey Levine
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From CobbCoStudioArts  Sat Feb 16 14:23:12 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:23:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <20020216192312.B61FF36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From Rsgwynn1  Sat Feb 16 14:45:33 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:45:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wuk, wuk
Message-ID: <17b.3b59522.29a010dd@cs.com>

I'm having some trouble typing because of a pinched nerve, and I can't find 
my collection of Dugan anyway.  But maybe someone can post "Notes on a Seven 
Day Diary."
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From FanwoodJEL  Sat Feb 16 14:53:22 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:53:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wuk, wuk
Message-ID: <6c.17996391.29a012b2@aol.com>

On a Seven Day Diary -- Dugan

Oh I got up and went to work
and worked and came back home
and ate and talked and went to sleep.
Then I got up and went to work
and worked and came back home
from work and ate and slept.
Then I got up and went to work
and worked and came back home
and ate and watched a show and slept.
Then I got up and went to work
and worked and came back home
and ate steak and went to sleep.
Then I got up and went to work
and worked and came back home
and ate and fucked and went to sleep.
Then it was Saturday, Saturday, Saturday!
Love must be the reason for the week!
We went shopping! I saw clouds!
The children explained everything!
I could talk about the main thing!
What did I drink on Saturday night
that lost the first, best half of Sunday?
The last half wasn't worth this "word."
Then I got up and went to work
and worked and came back home
from work and ate and went to sleep,
refreshed but tired by the weekend.

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From jholmes  Sat Feb 16 15:23:44 2002
From: jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:23:44 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #663 - 4 msgs
Message-ID: <sc6e5d7d.015@athena.boisestate.edu>

>> Janet, of course the poetry is the thing we value...but I think it's
fair to look at the life as it informs the art, from a variety of
perspectives:
employment, societal class, education, sexual interests, family
relationships, cultural milieu, politics, etc. If we try to make of the
art the sum total of these things...then we go wrong.<<

Hello Jim,

Heck, if it interests you, then look into it, by all means. As for me,
the influences of (say) Stevens' job on his poetry is of only cursory
interest--I'm not going to head out looking for a lawyer's job at an
insurance company because it helped Stevens. I'm not going to become a
translator or art critic because others found it possible to write that
way. And I'm not writing scholarly essays about these work-work
connections. I care lots more about the poems, what and why and how
*they* work, because they pose much more interesting challenges than
biographical details. About all I can take away from such discussions
(and did, as a young poet) is the permission to do something others
might consider unusual in order to enable myself to write. Get up at
five. (Never did.) Write one line in between sets of physical therapy
exercises. (I have a friend who does.) The idea of dictating my poems to
a secretary just didn't enter into my own problem-solving arena.

>> But let's say 80%(a WAG percentage of poets who are employed in
educational institutions, primarily in English Depts.) of practicing
poets were engaged in the data processing field...would that not be of
interest and a fair subject of discussion? <<

Sure--but more to sociologists, wouldn't you think?

>> Non sequitur: This week Emily Grosholz is coming to Trinity College
in 
Hartford to read, and give a talk...she teaches Philosophy at UPenn, I 
believe. <<

Ah yes--the old "any field is better than English literature" truism. I
admire Grosholz's poems (and Carl Phillips's, and Anne Carson's,
Geoffrey Hill's, Linda Gregerson's -- all people who teach/have taught
in fields other than English). But I don't think her field of study
gives her any more legitimacy (or interest) than an author who teaches
English literature or Creative Writing. John Berryman, for example,
managed to squeeze out some mighty fine writing in between those
Shakespeare lectures. It might be nice if American poets displayed more
familiarity with the literature and history of their own language than
they do.

These are just my opinions, Jim--I'm just sharing them on the list along
with everyone else. I'm sorry if they seem provocative.

Janet



From FanwoodJEL  Sat Feb 16 18:10:17 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:10:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <70.17f79514.29a040d9@aol.com>

Chris,

It's hard to say what speaks worse for my process: that how and what I write 
tend to be wholly alienated from whatever it is I do to earn a living, or 
that my poems--form and content--are so much affected by what I've last read. 
So many times I've been here or there and felt, well, I SHOULD be writing 
about this (the hawk on a low snow-covered branch of white pine, or the 
little child begging with his abuela in Mexico City's Zona Rosa, let's say), 
but it never works out that way for me. What happens on the page is what 
happens. But for me that's the pleasure of it: to start without agenda and to 
finish somewhere unimagined, unimaginable. Though, that said, I'm sure what I 
write is wholly different before and after a good meal. (Substitute other 
nouns here.) Anyway, the hardest part, I find, is letting go of the last way 
of writing and welcoming in the latest. Frightening, wrenching, liberating. 
You choose.

Jeffrey

In a message dated 2/16/2002 1:50:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:


> Jeffrey---- great points----it seems sensibility, temperament, mood, the 
> kind of poetry one writes, or is into writing at that time, would all then 
> be factors involved----Ever read Auden's short little, "Work, Play, and 
> Labour" essay; it's great because of his relativist sense of what could be 
> "unalienated labour" depending on the person (not, say, privileging, white 
> collar over blue...). Ever try to adjust the kind of poetry you write 
> depending on the work, or other environment-related, situations? I know I 
> have had to---not that I'm actually complaining about it; it's kind of 
> interesting that a poem I would have scorned when I was an adjunct in 
> Philly I found myself writing when a factchecker in NYC.... 

Chris 



FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote: 
> 
> >> In a message dated 2/16/2002 7:41:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
>> Arielpf123 at aol.com writes: 
>>   
>>   
>> >>> Well actually the point I was making about "work" being conducive or 
>>> not to 
>>> poetry writing is that, in my  experience, there have been certain types 
>>> of 
>>> jobs that seem to access those areas of my mind/brain that trigger poetry;
>>>  
>>> and other types that deaden my  mind or turn it to analytical concerns in 
>>> a 
>>> way that makes it difficult or impossible to write. Hasn't anyone else had
>>>  
>>> this experience? For me, insurance work was a deadener; which is why I've 
>>> wondered aloud how Stevens did it.  Also, being a social worker/therapist 
>>> was a deadener for me (though I'd have thought otherwise).   On the other 
>>> hand, when I was a Family Life Educator designing and giving workshops, 
>>> poetry flowed.  And any kind of what a friend of mine (Greg Joly) called 
>>> "Hand Labor" in his chapbook of that name seemed to stimulate poetry.   
>>> It has nothing to do with the amount of time available, but with a kind 
>>> of channel the mind gets into.  At the current time, I am retired; teach 
>>> one poetry class a week, think, read and try to write poetry constantly 
>>> and feel totally numbly blocked. 

pat fargnoli
> >> >>> 
>>> 
>> Well, interesting you say that because I've had just the opposite 
>> experience. I find it almost impossible to write while teaching because I 
>> can't stop thinking about what I'm reading, designing, communicating, 
>> planning. And because, where's the time? (Though teaching does, I find, 
>> trigger poetry, and feeds well periods of prolific production in the 
>> interstices -- vacations and summers.) 
>> Contrast that with 25 years, on-and-off, in the dizzyingly unsatisfying 
>> world of corporate law, where writing was the antidote to daily dullness. 
>> You've seen the TV commercial where young jr. exec. turks sit around a 
>> board table, listening to someone drone relentlessly about last month's 
>> numbers, this month's numbers, next month's numbers? I was the guy writing 
>> poems on yellow pad. Just don't ask me about the numbers. Completely 
>> paradoxical, I know, but as Satan said, the mind is its own place. Still, 
>> Pat, thing to do is come with me to the next board meeting (I still do 
>> some occasional consulting). Them poems'll just tumble out. 
>> Jeffrey Levine
> 


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From halvard  Sat Feb 16 23:28:29 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:28:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by othes: Wayne Koestenbaum, "German Romantic Song"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEHEEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

German Romantic Song

Cryptic owl on my sill,
olive branch in the gold-bowered cope,

when I was a child I didn?t know
what the word ?colleague? meant: darkness?
My father had many colleagues;
I had none.

I told his assistant, twenty-one years ago,
?I wonder which I love most,
words or music.?
I can?t remember her advice,
though later she sued my father--
a long story. Perhaps
ecstasy can?t be sought?
Materialism is no longer my amour,
I?m forever a bridegroom to bliss and its disguises.

--Wayne Koestenbaum


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From CobbCoStudioArts  Sun Feb 17 09:52:09 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 06:52:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <20020217145209.1EBEA3ECC@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From hruggier  Sun Feb 17 11:15:22 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:15:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] WORK AND POETRY
Message-ID: <3C6FD71A.AC1D3555@localnet.com>

This has been a fascinating discussion (I'm a newcomer to the list).  I
had to put an oar in here about work:  I've written poetry while working
as a private secretary, an order entry clerk, a technical buyer
(assistant), an adjunct, a composition instructor, and as a writing
teacher.  I wrote poetry as a grad student (in my 40s), and as a night
shift worker running backup on a hospital computer.  However, my best
and most productive year as a poet was the year I collected unemployment
insurance and spent most of every day (except Wednesday when I reported
to the employment office) writing, practicing, writing more and more and
more.  In other words, doing what I didn't have time to do when I was
working.

Thanks,

Helen Ruggieri




From odysseus34  Sun Feb 17 14:17:52 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:17:52 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
References: <135.985213e.299fdf2e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C7001DE.214E80B5@earthlink.net>

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From odysseus34  Sun Feb 17 14:33:21 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:33:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #663 - 4 msgs
References: <sc6e5d7d.015@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <3C70057D.7B981CA2@earthlink.net>


Janet Holmes wrote:

> Ah yes--the old "any field is better than English literature" truism. I
> admire Grosholz's poems (and Carl Phillips's, and Anne Carson's,
> Geoffrey Hill's, Linda Gregerson's -- all people who teach/have taught
> in fields other than English). But I don't think her field of study
> gives her any more legitimacy (or interest) than an author who teaches
> English literature or Creative Writing.

Who had any questions about legitimacy?  I really don't think that was the
point of the original discussion.  It started off with some slightly
gossipy stuff about Maya Angelou, Billy Collins, and money, and evolved
into talking about working poets/poets who work -- the age-old balance
between trying to write and trying to earn a living.  If that problem
doesn't concern you, you are very lucky.

I was particularly interested in poets who have had jobs other than
teaching, not because I think it's easy to teach, not because I think it's
easy to get into teaching (particularly now) but just because I personally
don't now teach and it doesn't look likely in the future.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From FanwoodJEL  Sun Feb 17 15:44:12 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:44:12 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <196.26b849b.29a1701c@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/17/2002 3:16:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes:


> I had the same idea, but got so many comments on "What are you writing 
> about?  Are you taking notes?  Why are you taking notes?"  etc. etc.  fro 
> the boss, among others, that I just quit doing it.  (I forgot to mention 
> one of the other big comments at work, given that I've been a habitual 
> notebook-carrier since about age ten, is "What are you writing?  Are you 
> writing a novel?  Is it about us?"  I've never been able to come up with a 
> good answer to this question yet.) Moira Russell 
> Seattle, WA 
> 
> 
Moira,

Ha. Well, I always say, yes, it's about you. I tell them somebody has to 
record how this company's exemplary leadership so beautifully balances its 
responsibilities to the stockholders, the environment, the board, the 
executives, the back-office and the bank. Anyway, I was always the one 
charged with keeping the minutes--maybe because I was always corporate 
secretary--so then carte blanche to write. I'll wager that very few board 
minutes note (for example) that as the CFO discussed the company's short-term 
financial prospects, her eyebrows appeared to archly arch. Here's my 
favorite: I actually started a poem at a closing -- an acquisition of one 
solid waste landfill by another -- while everybody sat around a little coffee 
table in a little shack out on top of the actual landfill. Seemed an 
opportunity too good to miss.

Jeffrey
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From halvard  Sun Feb 17 15:53:59 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:53:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
In-Reply-To: <3C7001DE.214E80B5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEHJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The best answer, perhaps, is to wink and say, "Buy it, and see."

Hal     "Beware the bomb concealed when
            a poet is being pleasant."
                              --Richard Eder, NY Times
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


  I had the same idea, but got so many comments on "What are you writing
about?  Are you taking notes?  Why are you taking notes?"  etc. etc.  fro
the boss, among others, that I just quit doing it.  (I forgot to mention one
of the other big comments at work, given that I've been a habitual
notebook-carrier since about age ten, is "What are you writing?  Are you
writing a novel?  Is it about us?"  I've never been able to come up with a
good answer to this question yet.)
  Moira Russell
  Seattle, WA
    _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From odysseus34  Sun Feb 17 15:08:24 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:08:24 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEHJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C700DB0.96106DB5@earthlink.net>

Hal:  "The best answer, perhaps, is to wink and say, 'Buy it, and see.'"

And Jeffrey: "Ha. Well, I always say, yes, it's about you. I tell them
somebody has to record how this company's exemplary leadership so
beautifully balances
its responsibilities to the stockholders, the environment, the board,
the executives, the back-office and the bank."

Now those are both good ones -- and a lot more polite than the standard
one I have to bite back, "Who the hell would write a novel about an
office and even if I did, do you think someone working in an office
would pay good money in their off hours in order to relax and be taken
away by a no-frigate-like-a-book about....an OFFICE?"

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From grahamd  Sun Feb 17 16:23:43 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:23:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tiny Insane Voluptuousness
Message-ID: <200202172121.g1HLLBR61100@mx4.mx.voyager.net>

At the Desk

I spent the entire day in official details;
And  it almost pulled me down like the others:
I felt that tiny insane voluptuousness,
Getting this done, finally finishing that.
--Theodor Storm, trans. R. Bly

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stevens
>Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002, 2:08 PM
>

>Hal:  "The best answer, perhaps, is to wink and say, 'Buy it, and see.'"
>
>And Jeffrey: "Ha. Well, I always say, yes, it's about you. I tell them
>somebody has to record how this company's exemplary leadership so
>beautifully balances
>its responsibilities to the stockholders, the environment, the board,
>the executives, the back-office and the bank."
>
>Now those are both good ones -- and a lot more polite than the standard
>one I have to bite back, "Who the hell would write a novel about an
>office and even if I did, do you think someone working in an office
>would pay good money in their off hours in order to relax and be taken
>away by a no-frigate-like-a-book about....an OFFICE?"
>
>Moira Russell
>Seattle, WA
>



From halvard  Sun Feb 17 16:55:08 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:55:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tiny Insane Voluptuousness
In-Reply-To: <200202172121.g1HLLBR61100@mx4.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEHKEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Nice, David. Thanks.

Hal

   
{    At the Desk
{    
{    I spent the entire day in official details;
{    And  it almost pulled me down like the others:
{    I felt that tiny insane voluptuousness,
{    Getting this done, finally finishing that.
{    --Theodor Storm, trans. R. Bly
{    
{    ========================================
{    David Graham
{    grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
{    Home Page:
{    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
{    Poetry Library:
{    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
{    ========================================
{    
{    
{    ----------
{    >From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
{    >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stevens
{    >Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002, 2:08 PM
{    >
{    
{    >Hal:  "The best answer, perhaps, is to wink and say, 'Buy it, and see.'"
{    >
{    >And Jeffrey: "Ha. Well, I always say, yes, it's about you. I tell them
{    >somebody has to record how this company's exemplary leadership so
{    >beautifully balances
{    >its responsibilities to the stockholders, the environment, the board,
{    >the executives, the back-office and the bank."
{    >
{    >Now those are both good ones -- and a lot more polite than the standard
{    >one I have to bite back, "Who the hell would write a novel about an
{    >office and even if I did, do you think someone working in an office
{    >would pay good money in their off hours in order to relax and be taken
{    >away by a no-frigate-like-a-book about....an OFFICE?"
{    >
{    >Moira Russell
{    >Seattle, WA
{    >
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    



From CobbCoStudioArts  Sun Feb 17 17:57:55 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:57:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <20020217225755.45B4536F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From halvard  Sun Feb 17 17:59:03 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 17:59:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work: Charles Bernstein, "Company Life"
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEGNEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEHLEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Company Life

		consumation of impossible sorrows

residues of the previous

                                 marks

           as the motion of a glance

                                       scatters, as

                            misled, a kind of

                                             autumnal (puff

                                    quickly rushes

                                                   for, around

                 only asked

                                         makes much of

                            induced memory

                                               shouting to

                            amorous

                                          double view

                 I've

                                           meant to tell you

                          all, this

                                  otherwise unrecognizable

                             *encountered*

                                               with escalators confining the

                                    levels, we

                            overhear overmuch

                                                            are, am

                                                  shattered crystal, blown

                                  much as melts

                                                   & trickles, *I* wish

                                         miniaturized in our desires

                      as cubicle follows cubicle

                                          next to an out-of-doors

                             even more interior

                                                   (too plain

                                            a pie, glysemic

                                                    hope for sudden

                                                changes, lifts

                                         out or made for

                                                              clips

                                      pen & tie

                                                 *you* wish . . .

--Charles Bernstein


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From tadrichards  Sun Feb 17 18:36:33 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:36:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEHJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <3C700DB0.96106DB5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c1b80b$f29cd500$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Well,you never know when a poem is going to pop up. I had given my poetry
workshop class an assignment to listen to people talking around them, and
write it down any time they heard someone say something in iambic
pentameter. I was sitting in a faculty meeting, and I decided to try it
myself. By the time I'd filled two pages in a notebook, and looked back over
what I'd written down, I realized it was sorta hanging together. Anyway,
here it is:


MINUTES OF THE LAST MEETING

It wouldn't interfere with what we do;
I couldn't really poll the entire group.
Very, very briefly, here's the plan
Elect the chairs of two committees first
(Able to run for these positions first)
Who'll want to lead the faculty towards greatness.

Within the AAC or SAC,
At least two people -- one is not enough -
The faculty at large will vote for chairs,
The AAC, I find, now having done it.

The AAC, last Monday, voted no
-Selected by the faculty at large-
And they pick someone who they think can lead.
Maybe the better thing would be to keep.
We have to somehow pull it all together.

Did everyone get a chance to sign the sheet?
There are seven searches underway


From Rsgwynn1  Sun Feb 17 18:45:24 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:45:24 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <3a.2228dd14.29a19a94@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/17/2002 4:59:32 PM Central Standard Time, 
CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes:


> [New Poetry],
> 
> This is a correction.  My art agent has informed me that the "Colesium" is 
> in Greensboro, not Asheboro, NC,
> as was previously mentioned.  So, If you would like to visit over coffee, 
> I'll be in GSO, not ASO
> 
> Bob Cobb
> 
> Poetry Catamaran
> 

I was wondering how many vacationers you'd find in Ashboro.  Hope your show 
is a success.
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From CobbCoStudioArts  Sun Feb 17 20:15:54 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 17:15:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <20020218011554.31DCD2755@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From thebobcooperfor  Mon Feb 18 07:59:26 2002
From: thebobcooperfor (bob cooper)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:59:26 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] WORK AND POETRY
Message-ID: <F105XnDTn0sKTMLkEWB0000bfcb@hotmail.com>

Yeh,
I want to believe that Janet Holmes is right! But, in the end I feel she's 
just a tad more right than some other things that've been posted. (Though 
she's given me a lovely brashly coloured squidgy cartoon character of a poet 
trying to get a job in an insurance office just because the great Stevens 
worked in one. Sort of Donald Duck? The miseries of the rest of Stevens life 
would not only follow such a choice but would be compounded. The poetry, 
however, probably wouldn?t.)
But I sense the word that's not been used yet is the word distraction...
I know I?ve written most when I?ve been out of work. I also know, when I?ve 
been working, I?ve been surprised by what I?ve written about. I also want to 
believe that art, and poetry, comes by accidents that prompt (and if it?s a 
poem that?s to turn up, and we?re working at whatever, then let?s each of us 
hope there?s just enough time to get the initial scope of it down). It's not 
all accident, though. Maybe just the exciting ones are!
But there's another monster hole in this discussion aswell...
What about the comment about ?no writing when there?s a pram in the hall?? 
Is work merely what yr paid for, for one regular job, usually between 9-2-5?
At the moment (like a fair few of the writers I know) I've got a few 
part-time jobs (some of which pay regularly, if not well) and I hope (oh how 
I hope!) no new pram gets wedged in the hall! And the writing... well, once 
I get over the panic attacks of thinking it's all gone, will (like Mr. 
McCawber's income) hopefully turn up.
Bob

Anybody else see Donald Duck practising on an old harmonium, re-stringing a 
blue guitar, or (joy of joys) reciting The Idea Of Order...


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com




From bobgrumman  Mon Feb 18 09:59:02 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:59:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writing Op (Forwarded)
References: <F105XnDTn0sKTMLkEWB0000bfcb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c1b88c$cf0aac80$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

I did some entries for this but am too busy to
do more.  I thought maybe someone at New-Poetry
might be interested in doing one or more, though--
among those needing entries written is Cervalo.

                                         --Bob G.

Post from Burt Kimmelman follows:

I am editing A Companion to
Twentieth-Century American Poetry (for Facts on
File, Inc., a publisher that enjoys very wide distribution in libraries,
colleges and high schools, as well as bookstores). The project has been
ongoing for about a year, and the volume is scheduled to appear in 2004.
Some essay topics that had been assigned to people now have to be reassigned
(writers who thought they'd be able to contribute essays have found they
cannot do so after all), and so I am soliciting essayists to contribute to
the volume.

The volume will be peer reviewed. Payment for essays will be in
presentational offprints and, too, for the large topic essays, a copy of the
book. All essays will carry the author's name, and a list of contributors
will appear in the back of the book.

The list of entries for the volume can be viewed at this website:
http://eies.njit.edu/~kimmelma/companion.html; also at the website can be
found a set of guidelines for writing the essays as well as sample, model
essays.

If you are interested in writing for this book, then please contact me via
e-mail (see my eddress below), using the subject header Essays for Book (or
else simply reply to this message). If I don't know you, then please provide
me with a bit of background about yourself including a brief account of your
publishing history if you have one.

I look forward to hearing from you.


Cordially,

Burt

Dr. Burt Kimmelman, Associate Professor of English
Director, Undergraduate Studies,
Program in Professional and Technical Communication
Department of Humanities and Social Sciences
New Jersey Institute of Technology
Newark, New Jersey 07102
973.596.3376 (p); 973.642.4689 (f)
kimmelman at njit.edu
http://eies.njit.edu/~kimmelma




From paul.lake  Mon Feb 18 10:57:45 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:57:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Working class poetry
Message-ID: <B8968099.26F2%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

>Paul, if you were cranking out the poems while working as a
county pipe line inspector, good for you. I didn't have the
qualifications for such a position.


Qualifications? What qualifications.  I knew absolutely nothing about pipe
line construction.  It was all strictly on the job learning.

Paul Lake




From jholmes  Mon Feb 18 12:43:07 2002
From: jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:43:07 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work & poetry
Message-ID: <sc70dac9.003@athena.boisestate.edu>

Moira wrote: 

>> Who had any questions about legitimacy?  I really don't think that
was the point of the original discussion.  It started off with some
slightly gossipy stuff about Maya Angelou, Billy Collins, and money, and
evolved into talking about working poets/poets who work -- the age-old
balance between trying to write and trying to earn a living.  If that
problem doesn't concern you, you are very lucky. <<

Erm, Moira--Why so tetchy? Believe it or not, I've been following the
discussion. I didn't realize I couldn't respond to a single posting, but
had to take the entire thread on. My response was to Finnegan's pointing
out that Grosholz was not an *English* professor. Forgive me if I posted
uninvited.

That said, I don't see that the discussion actually *has* been about the
"age-old balance between trying to write and trying to earn a living."
It seemed to be about whether and how the jobs poets held migrated into
the poems they wrote. At this point, it seems to be about poems about
work.

>> I was particularly interested in poets who have had jobs other than
teaching, not because I think it's easy to teach, not because I think
it's easy to get into teaching (particularly now) but just because I 
personally don't now teach and it doesn't look likely in the future. <<

Well, I'll be happy to post about how it is to write while working
nights as a typesetter, holding two fulltime jobs at a time, being a
technical writer, managing a weekly newspaper, supervising software
engineering projects, or moving up the exec ladder at a financial
printing firm. But I don't see why anyone would care--especially as
those weren't topics in the poems. I wouldn't recommend my own ways of
coping with the "age-old balance" for anyone else, particularly,
especially as some of them could be seen as detrimental to one's health.

Am I very lucky? (Is this a matter of general interest, or just a nasty
swipe?) Thank God, yes, I am lucky--in many ways other than having
landed a teaching job in these times. (I've been on tenure track all of
two and a half years.) I wouldn't count as part of that luck, however,
not having had to worry about balancing writing time and work life. I
*would* count *being able* to balance them, and I wish you the best of
luck finding that balance yourself.

Janet



From halvard  Mon Feb 18 12:45:37 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:45:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Query
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEIIEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Anyone have the full poem from which this comes? It's
from Allen Tate's *Sonnets of the Blood*.

                        What is the flesh and blood compounded of
                        But a few moments in the life of time?
                        This prowling of the cells, litigious love,
                        Wears the long claw of flesh-arguing crime.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From TerryP17  Mon Feb 18 12:48:27 2002
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:48:27 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <15c.89f1c4f.29a2986b@aol.com>

All--

<<I'm grateful for good poetry; I don't give a shit what the poet was
doing to support the writing of it. Debates like these are ultimately
ridiculous. In fact, they're ridiculous from the beginning. They're not
about poetry.>>

Incorrect, I think, but we'll get back to this.

Sorry to come in late on this thread, but I've been off at my weekend place 
in WV without a phone or email, or even CNN (!) Doesn't get much more working 
class than that. This thread is probably petering out a bit, having spent 
most of its passion, appropriately, on or about Valentine's Day, but it 
involves some interesting ideas, so here's my 3 cents' worth.

First of all, what a poet does to support his/her habit has, in my mind, 
everything to do with poetry. Writers in all forms, prose, poetry, whatever, 
end up being informed by family, friends, and what it is that they do to make 
money. This invariably rubs off on what is written, either by inspiring the 
subject matter or by underpinning the attitude toward the subject matter, or 
perhaps even the structure of what is written. So I would disagree that 
discussions like this are ridiculous. They are not. They provide some needed 
introspection on the nature of the art as well as its content.

Re: the academics vs. working stiff subthread. Also interesting. 
Academics--specifically tenured academics at major universities--who make any 
effort to write do, in fact, have a better environment for this than 
elsewhere. They have semester breaks and summer vacations, all of which 
provide long stretches whereby one can research and write. Not necessarily 
the case for 9 to 5ers in the workplace, most of whom are lucky to get 3 
weeks' vacation after 10 years of service if they don't get laid off first. 
All this, too, influences what one writes.

This having been said, the academic paradise I describe above is steadily 
shrinking, becoming the privilege of a very few, and perhaps these will be 
gone tomorrow. With heavy workloads at smaller colleges and community 
colleges and the seemingly unstoppable increase in overloaded graduate 
instructors and slave-wage adjuncts vs. tenured slots--well, these folks have 
it worse off than practically anyone. Just a few short years ago, the 
advantages between academic and workaday living with regard to the writing 
life were pretty easy to distinguish. But today, the working environments of 
town vs. gown are rapidly becoming indistinguishable.

Anyhow, random thoughts on a decent thread.

BTW, poets both academic and not appear in the latest issue of Edge City 
Review, just out rather late as a result of last fall's unpleasant history. 
We'll be posting selected new poetry from this issue to our website a bit 
later this week.

Have a good holiday,

--Terry Ponick



From jholmes  Mon Feb 18 12:52:11 2002
From: jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:52:11 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
Message-ID: <sc70dcec.013@athena.boisestate.edu>

Paul Lake wrote: 

>> Qualifications? What qualifications.  I knew absolutely nothing about
pipe line construction.  It was all strictly on the job learning. <<


Hi Paul. Calm down. I was joking. I'll let you know, though, next time I
hear of a 5'0", 100 lb woman being hired (with admittedly no
qualifications) for a construction inspector's position that she could
learn on the job which really consists of doing no work! (Or maybe you
don't think that's funny? I do. In a kind of wry way.)



From halvard  Mon Feb 18 12:51:30 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:51:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work & poetry
In-Reply-To: <sc70dac9.003@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEIIEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Janet, this just reminded me that once, way back when I was
young,--once, mind you--actually wrote a poem while I was
standing before a class teaching. And the words I was writing
had nothing (hard to prove, I know) to do with the words
coming out of my mouth. Problem is I'd never be able to tell
you today what poem that was. And that's probably better
for all of us.

{    Well, I'll be happy to post about how it is to write while working

Hal     "metaphor--I use them. They keep me regular."
                         --Paul Violi

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From gmcvay  Mon Feb 18 13:01:22 2002
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:01:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <sc70dcec.013@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202181258450.26989-100000@adams.patriot.net>

> Hi Paul. Calm down. I was joking. I'll let you know, though, next time I
> hear of a 5'0", 100 lb woman being hired (with admittedly no
> qualifications) for a construction inspector's position that she could
> learn on the job which really consists of doing no work! (Or maybe you
> don't think that's funny? I do. In a kind of wry way.)
> _______________________________________________

Hi Janet. I'm 4'11" and recently had an offer by a master stonemason to
teach me to cut stone. He says it's not brute strength per se, as the
chisel is not gripped but rather rides loosely in the fist; it's being
able to stand the repetitive movements. Admittedly I see things through
Zen-colored glasses (all colors and no color at the same time, of course),
but I can't help thinking the "donk... donk... donk" all day might be
better at letting the subconscious percolate than my current IT job.

Gwyn




From paul.lake  Mon Feb 18 13:06:01 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:06:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <sc70dcec.013@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <B8969EA8.2701%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/18/02 11:52 AM, Janet Holmes at jholmes at boisestate.edu wrote:

> Paul Lake wrote: 
> 
>>> Qualifications? What qualifications.  I knew absolutely nothing about
> pipe line construction.  It was all strictly on the job learning. <<
> 
> 
> Hi Paul. Calm down. I was joking. I'll let you know, though, next time I
> hear of a 5'0", 100 lb woman being hired (with admittedly no
> qualifications) for a construction inspector's position that she could
> learn on the job which really consists of doing no work! (Or maybe you
> don't think that's funny? I do. In a kind of wry way.)
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Janet, I did think it was funny and hope the tone of my response was also
funny.  I got the job because my dad knew someone in the county personnel
office.  I spent six months tagging along behind a real character named Norm
Parslow, a seventy something old inspector who taught me the ropes, such as
they were.  I was a terrible inspector, spending as little time watching the
actual laying of pipe as possible.  I didn't keep my maps up for months at a
time since nobody ever visited the job site. Then when they were due, I'd
color in everything in about five minutes.  Funny thing was, I always got
compliments from my boss about how neat and accurate my maps were.

Never hire a poet to inspect construction of any kind--especially nuclear
plants.

My worse job, as far as being a poet goes, was my two year stint teaching in
a ghetto junior high in Baltimore.  After work, I'd be so exhausted I'd take
two and three hour naps.  I must have written some of the poems that got me
a grad fellowship at the time, but I'll be damned if I can remember writing
anything those two years.

Paul Lake




From MillB  Mon Feb 18 13:10:57 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:10:57 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work & poetry
Message-ID: <30.225f9702.29a29db1@aol.com>

Janet:

I was not aware that a person had to respond to all of the threads when 
responding to the newsgroup!!!$!@#$

As for me, my goal every year is to write full time as much as possible.  I 
also do tech writing. I make the proverbial big bucks as a freelancer in the 
biz world. . .until the project ends or I get fed up. . .then take time off 
to write. . .adding to my income by teaching as an adjunct. . .I've found 
that teaching, for me, eats into the very heart of my work. . .I can come 
home after 15 hours days of software testing. .. and write.  However, I 
cannot come home after teaching. . .teaching seems to use the same brain 
cells. . .as writing for me. . .I worry. . .I grade papers. . .I plan 
lessons. . .I review textbooks. . .

Is anyone else going to AWP?  I'm just unpacking from NY and thinking of New 
Orleans. . .

Maybe we could plan a get-together at the conference?

Cheers,

Mill



From paul.lake  Mon Feb 18 13:10:00 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:10:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202181258450.26989-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-ID: <B8969F98.2704%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/18/02 12:01 PM, Gwyn McVay at gmcvay at patriot.net wrote:

>> Hi Paul. Calm down. I was joking. I'll let you know, though, next time I
>> hear of a 5'0", 100 lb woman being hired (with admittedly no
>> qualifications) for a construction inspector's position that she could
>> learn on the job which really consists of doing no work! (Or maybe you
>> don't think that's funny? I do. In a kind of wry way.)
>> _______________________________________________
> 
> Hi Janet. I'm 4'11" and recently had an offer by a master stonemason to
> teach me to cut stone. He says it's not brute strength per se, as the
> chisel is not gripped but rather rides loosely in the fist; it's being
> able to stand the repetitive movements. Admittedly I see things through
> Zen-colored glasses (all colors and no color at the same time, of course),
> but I can't help thinking the "donk... donk... donk" all day might be
> better at letting the subconscious percolate than my current IT job.
> 
> Gwyn
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
Thanks, Gwyn. I will never get the picture out of my head of you sitting
before a massive stone, striking it with a steady donk, donk, donk. Doesn't
sound like an ideal job for anyone in the hundred pound range.  I knew a guy
at my local grocery store who quit there to become a brick layer.  Six
months later, he looked like Arnold What's His Name.

Best stick to inspecting, which requires no strength or skill of any kind.

Paul




From Thom424  Mon Feb 18 14:11:37 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:11:37 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work & poetry
Message-ID: <158.927182f.29a2abe9@aol.com>

       What Work Is

       --Philip Levine

              We stand in the rain in a long line
              waiting at Ford Highland Park. For work.
              You know what work is--if you're
              old enough to read this you know what
              work is, although you may not do it.
              Forget you. This is about waiting,
              shifting from one foot to another.
              Feeling the light rain falling like mist
              into your hair, blurring your vision
              until you think you see your own brother
              ahead of you, maybe ten places.
              You rub your glasses with your fingers,
              and of course it's someone else's brother,
              narrower across the shoulders than
              yours but with the same sad slouch, the grin
              that does not hide the stubbornness,
              the sad refusal to give in to
              rain, to the hours wasted waiting,
              to the knowledge that somewhere ahead
              a man is waiting who will say, "No,
              we're not hiring today," for any
              reason he wants. You love your brother,
              now suddenly you can hardly stand
              the love flooding you for your brother,
              who's not beside you or behind or
              ahead because he's home trying to
              sleep off a miserable night shift
              at Cadillac so he can get up
              before noon to study his German.
              Works eight hours a night so he can sing
              Wagner, the opera you hate most,
              the worst music ever invented.
              How long has it been since you told him
              you loved him, held his wide shoulders,
              opened your eyes wide and said those words,
              and maybe kissed his cheek? You've never
              done something so simple, so obvious,
              not because you're too young or too dumb,
              not because you're jealous or even mean
              or incapable of crying in
              the presence of another man, no,
              just because you don't know what work is.



Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN 



From JforJames  Mon Feb 18 14:22:15 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:22:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Work and Poetry
Message-ID: <7d.2283f4d6.29a2ae67@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/16/02 3:23:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jholmes at boisestate.edu writes:
>  These are just my opinions, Jim--I'm just sharing them on the list along
>  with everyone else. I'm sorry if they seem provocative.
>  
Janet and others,
no problem for me...I don't see this as a particularly "charged discussion."
I do want to go on record as saying "Keep up the good work,"  to all 
the educators on this list. I mean that. All jobs are jobs; and as others
have pointed out, there's a wide variety of work out there in academia:  
Tenured Poet-in-Residence holding an endowed chair to adjunct splitting 
his/her time between more than one campus. My point was that 
it's unimaginable that poetry, or any writing, is impervious to life's
and the world's influences: Work is one of the many influences; 
and its evidence may be more or less overt from one poet to another.

If one decides to write a suite of poems about what it is he/she
does all day, or just an odd poem or two throught the oeuvre, 
or if he/she purposefully decide not a word directly or indirectly
related to employment, or even if one unconsciously blocks 
work out from the mind that writes the poem, then all these are 
in a way the influence of one's work on the art. But I'm getting
philosophic...

I've been reading more philosophy than poetry of late. So I do hope it's 
true that an Emily Grosholz, or a John Koethe, another philosophy
professor, if I recall correctly, would bring to her or hisr poetry a 
different 
perspective, or an aspect less revealed. Not better, not more important 
than a teacher of Shakespeare or African-American studies, just different. 
But maybe not; there's no telling. As was said, Stevens' day job showed 
up hardly at all in the concerns of his poetry...there is more philosophy 
in Stevens than insurance business or law. (Santayana was one of his 
teachers at Harvard, I belileve.) I do remember it being said in one 
biography 
that Stevens tried to keep his life in poetry out-of-sight & out-of-mind when 
it came to his colleagues at work. I seriously doubt that he openly dictated 
poems to his secretary...but I could be wrong...I often am. I do know that
he frequented a businessman's hangout called the Canoe Club...& I doubt 
that poetry was discussed much over lunch with his cronies at that club.
Finnegan 
 



From JforJames  Mon Feb 18 14:40:17 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:40:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Victor Hugo at 200
Message-ID: <83.16fceddd.29a2b2a1@aol.com>

Victor Hugo 
An interrupted sentence

Feb 14th 2002 


From Jholmes  Mon Feb 18 15:14:37 2002
From: Jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:14:37 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <sc70fe59.048@athena.boisestate.edu>

Terry wrote:

>> Sorry to come in late on this thread, but I've been off at my
weekend place 
in WV without a phone or email, or even CNN (!) Doesn't get much more
working 
class than that. <<

Heh, if your definition of working class means owning a weekend place
far from the madding crowd, I guess it doesn't!

Nobody's yet convinced me that talking about how others seem to have
managed their work lives and writing lives is important, not even your
telling me outright I am incorrect in my opinion. Of course, I'm
speaking from the point of view of a writer, not of a literary scholar,
sociologist, philosopher, or gossip, for any of whom it may be thrilling
information. As a poet, I've found others' prescriptions for balancing
work for money and art work singularly useless. (In the same manner, I
find Dear Abby's advice inapplicable in my daily life.)

>> Just a few short years ago, the advantages between academic and
workaday living with regard to the writing life were pretty easy to
distinguish. But today, the working environments of town vs. gown are
rapidly becoming indistinguishable. <<

I agree completely. Like state legislatures who believe professors work
only three or four hours a week, the public forgets that many professors
have lives dominated by meetings, or teach summer school to supplement
their salaries, or (as many creative writing teachers do) pile up as
many summer teaching assignments as they can--because salaries are
significantly lower in academe than they are in any other field for
which the same amount of education is required. The trade-off is worth
it for a lot of us (as I said, the work you stay up at night writing is,
if minimally, rewarded in academe), but the idea that it requires no
sacrifice is uninformed.

Janet




From wjbat  Mon Feb 18 18:33:09 2002
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:33:09 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202181258450.26989-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-ID: <20020218153309.014969@oak.cc.conncoll.edu>

Gwyn McVay  wrote:
> I'm 4'11" and recently had an offer by a master stonemason to
>teach me to cut stone. He says it's not brute strength per se, as the
>chisel is not gripped but rather rides loosely in the fist; it's being
>able to stand the repetitive movements. Admittedly I see things through
>Zen-colored glasses (all colors and no color at the same time, of course),
>but I can't help thinking the "donk... donk... donk" all day might be
>better at letting the subconscious percolate than my current IT job.

Go for it, Gwyn!

Wendy, who often misses the synchrotron lab




From halvard  Mon Feb 18 15:50:18 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:50:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <sc70fe59.048@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEINEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Here's a taste of John Ashbery's art criticism, c. '65 (ArtNews). I'm
posting it here in this still-vibrating thread because it touches on the
matter of work environment, and certainly what he says he about
painters working far from the pulsing, moneyed heart applies as well
to poets marinating their lines far from any full-blown "scene."

These are the first three paragraphs of a review of a show by Joan
Mitchell.


"Joan Mitchell is one of the American artisits who live in Paris for
extra-artistic reasons and who are different in that way from the
American who went to live there before the last war. They are not
expatriates but *apatrides*. Finding Europe only slightly more
congenial that America, they have stayed on for various reasons,
some of them 'personal'--but do artists ever have any other kind
of reason? A personal reason can mean being in love or liking the
food or the look of the roofs across the courtyard--or in some
cases the art. The *apatrides* of today are usually affected by one
or more of these reasons melting together and producing a rather
negative feeling of being at home. Far from dreading the day when
their money runs out and they have to go back to America, many
of them look forward disgruntledly to it. They feel they should
have gone back long ago to become successes instead of staying
on in this city famous for its angry inhabitants, high living costs and
lack of any sustained excitement in the contemporary arts.

"Joan Mitchell is a radical example of this kind of American. Her
reasons for living here are strictly person. That is, she likes her
friends, her three dogs, her studio in the plebian 15th Arrondissement,
her frequent trips to the Riviera from where she goes boating to
Corsica, Italy and Greece. And that's about it. She rarely goes to
the theater, movies or exhibitions (except to friends' openings)
and never to parties. Her social life is limited to having friends
over to lunch, and sometimes going at night to one of the 
Montparnasse bars frequented by American painters. She has
French friends but few of them are painters. In a word, she does
not participate in the cultural life of Paris, and although she can
be said to live and work there, the city is little more than a backdrop
for these activities. And that is perhaps the secret attraction of Paris
for Americans today. Unlike New York and most other capitals,
it provides a still neutral climate in which one can work pretty much
as one chooses.

"And it is precisely this lack of interference, even when it takes the
saddening form of dealers and collectors losing sight of one, that is
a force in much of the painting being done today by Americans abroad.
This is perhaps less true of Joan Mitchell than of the majority of
American painters in Paris, since she was established in America before
coming to live here, and has continued to show in New York and to 
return there for visits. Still, one feels that the calm of Paris and the fact
that it is far from where the money is being made have affected her
work (as well as that of Shirley Jaffe, Kimber Smith, Norman Bluhm,
James Bishop, Beryl Barr-Sharrar and others). The exalting and the
deadening effects of an abundance of cash and action are alike absent
from her work. It looks strong and relaxed, classical and refreshing at
the same time; it has both the time and the will to be itself. To the
strength, the capacity for sizing up a situation, the instinctive knowledge
of what painting is all about which characterize the best postwar art in
America, the sojourn in Paris has contributed intelligence and 
introspection which heighten rather than attenuate these gifts. It seems
that such an artist has ripened more slowly and more naturally
in the Parisian climate of indifference than she might have in the
intensive-care wards of New York."

--John Ashbery

Ashbery then goes on to discuss Mitchell's work in more detail, and,
yes, I know, this is more about work as art-work than as work-work.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From trbell  Mon Feb 18 19:57:43 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:57:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
References: <sc70fe59.048@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <01e801c1b8e0$716034c0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

misemployment (new word) might be of interest in this thread?
http://www.mwknowles.com/wt/Articles/Miscellaneous_Interest/misemployment/mi
semployment.html

tom bell

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janet Holmes" <Jholmes at boisestate.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 2:14 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work


> Terry wrote:
>
> >> Sorry to come in late on this thread, but I've been off at my
> weekend place
> in WV without a phone or email, or even CNN (!) Doesn't get much more
> working
> class than that. <<
>
> Heh, if your definition of working class means owning a weekend place
> far from the madding crowd, I guess it doesn't!
>
> Nobody's yet convinced me that talking about how others seem to have
> managed their work lives and writing lives is important, not even your
> telling me outright I am incorrect in my opinion. Of course, I'm
> speaking from the point of view of a writer, not of a literary scholar,
> sociologist, philosopher, or gossip, for any of whom it may be thrilling
> information. As a poet, I've found others' prescriptions for balancing
> work for money and art work singularly useless. (In the same manner, I
> find Dear Abby's advice inapplicable in my daily life.)
>
> >> Just a few short years ago, the advantages between academic and
> workaday living with regard to the writing life were pretty easy to
> distinguish. But today, the working environments of town vs. gown are
> rapidly becoming indistinguishable. <<
>
> I agree completely. Like state legislatures who believe professors work
> only three or four hours a week, the public forgets that many professors
> have lives dominated by meetings, or teach summer school to supplement
> their salaries, or (as many creative writing teachers do) pile up as
> many summer teaching assignments as they can--because salaries are
> significantly lower in academe than they are in any other field for
> which the same amount of education is required. The trade-off is worth
> it for a lot of us (as I said, the work you stay up at night writing is,
> if minimally, rewarded in academe), but the idea that it requires no
> sacrifice is uninformed.
>
> Janet
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Mon Feb 18 17:03:16 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:03:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Some Santayana apropos of nothing in particular
Message-ID: <6.243d85ef.29a2d424@aol.com>

Pure poetry is pure experiment; and it is not strange that nine-tenths of it
should be pure failure. For it matters little what unutterable things may 
have originally gone together with a phrase in the dreamer's mind; if they 
were not uttered and the phrase cannot call them back, this verbal relic 
is none richer for the high company it may once have kept. Expressiveness 
is a most accidental matter. What a line suggest at one reading, it may 
never suggest again even to the same person. For this reason, among others, 
poets are partial to their own compositions; they truly discover there depths 
of meaning which exist for nobody else. Those readers who appropriate a 
poet and make him their own fall into a similar illusion; they attribute to 
him what they themselves supply...

Popular poets are the parish priests of the Muse, retailing
her ancient divinations to a long since converted public.
        --George Santayana (Essays in Literary Criticism)



From JforJames  Mon Feb 18 17:17:44 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:17:44 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The End of the Poem
Message-ID: <ae.2286e58c.29a2d788@aol.com>

Here's a take on some essays that may be of interest...

Re: agamben    Joe Amato  
  Feb 12, 2002 14:17 PST   
i finally had a chance to look at giorgio agamben's ~the end of the 
poem: studies in poetics~ (stanford up, 1999, trans. daniel 
heller-roazen)... essentially it's a slim collection of previously 
published essays...

agamben is a nice writer (in translation, though i'm actually 
somewhat wary of this translation) who looks to be something of an 
unreconstructed poststructuralist (?)... took a bit of getting used 
to, as agamben is coming from italian lit per se, and his sense of 
poetry is rooted in metrical verse... ergo you get passages (in the 
title piece, which comes at the end of the volume) such as:

"Awareness of the importance of the opposition between metrical 
segmentation and semantic segmentation has led some scholars to state 
the thesis (which I share) according to which the possibility of 
enjambment constitutes the only criterion for distinguishing poetry 
from prose. For what is enjambment, if not the opposition of a 
metrical limit to a syntactical limit, of a prosodic pause to a 
semantic pause? 'Poetry' will then be the name given to the 
discourse in which this opposition is, at least virtually, possible; 
'prose' will be the name for the discourse in which this opposition 
cannot take place." (109)

you can't even understand what agamben is saying, i think, unless you 
already imagine poetry as verse, and the verse line as a moment 
essentially of potential enjambment (i mean, there are so many other 
possibilities here, right?)... agamben is after, ysee, the notion 
that "poetry lives only in the tension and difference (and hence also 
in the virtual interference) between sound and sense, between the 
semiotic and the semantic sphere"... which leads to an engaging 
discussion re the end of the poem, as the possibility for enjambment 
is nil at this point in the poem---i mean, no line follows the last 
line, obviously, so metrical and semantic realities coincide (to what 
effect?)---which might say something about the nature of poetry as 
such (and rhyme and such like)...

(well, to paraphrase badly: for agamben, the end of the poem 
provides us with the philosophical essense of poetry... )

but in any case, agamben's discussion of poetry is, for me, just too 
closely wound around metrical, written composition... still, he's got 
a great historical grasp, esp. of things medieval, and i found both 
the essay "the dictation of poetry" and esp. the discussion around p. 
93 (the essay "expropriated manner") helpful in some sense... from 
which latter:

"Why does poetry matter? The ways in which answers to this question 
are offered testify to its absolute importance. For the field of 
possible respondents is clearly divided between those who affirm the 
significance of poetry only on condition of altogether confusing it 
with life and those for whom the significance of poetry is instead 
exclusively a function of its isolation from life. Both groups 
thereby betray their apparent intention: the first, because they 
sacrifice poetry to the life into which they resolve it; the second, 
because in the last analysis they are convinced of poetry's impotence 
with respect to life. Romanticism and aestheticism, which confuse 
life and poetry at every step, are just as foolish as Olympian 
classicism and well-meaning secularism, which everywhere keep life 
and poetry apart, destining humanity to transmit a patrimony that is 
holy but that has become useless precisely in the issue that should 
have become decisive.

"Opposed to these two positions is the experience of the poet, who 
affirms that if poetry and life remain infinitely divergent on the 
level of the biography and psychology of the individual, they 
nevertheless become absolutely indistinct at the point of their 
reciprocal desubjectivization. And-at that point-they are united not 
immediately but in a medium. This medium is language. The poet is 
he who, in the word, produces life. Life, which the poet produces in 
the poem, withdraws from both the lived experience of the 
psychoanalytic individual and the biological unsayability of the 
species."

and so on...

best,

joe  



From wasanthony  Mon Feb 18 18:41:15 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:41:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Some Santayana apropos of nothing in particular
In-Reply-To: <6.243d85ef.29a2d424@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020218234115.6584.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com>

James:  Thanks for posting this.  I somehow needed to hear something
like that at this particular moment.  Not to look a gift horse in the
mouth, but the last  sentence "Popular poets are the parish priests of
the Muse, retailing her ancient divinations to a long since converted
public," has contradictory pathologies embedded within it.   And a lot
of the usual suspects connected with them have been mentioned here
recently.  Nuff said.

- Jim

--- JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Pure poetry is pure experiment; and it is not strange that
> nine-tenths of it
> should be pure failure. For it matters little what unutterable things
> may 
> have originally gone together with a phrase in the dreamer's mind; if
> they 
> were not uttered and the phrase cannot call them back, this verbal
> relic 
> is none richer for the high company it may once have kept.
> Expressiveness 
> is a most accidental matter. What a line suggest at one reading, it
> may 
> never suggest again even to the same person. For this reason, among
> others, 
> poets are partial to their own compositions; they truly discover
> there depths 
> of meaning which exist for nobody else. Those readers who appropriate
> a 
> poet and make him their own fall into a similar illusion; they
> attribute to 
> him what they themselves supply...
> 
> Popular poets are the parish priests of the Muse, retailing
> her ancient divinations to a long since converted public.
>         --George Santayana (Essays in Literary Criticism)
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>

Readings: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/readings.html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From snospx  Mon Feb 18 19:18:16 2002
From: snospx (Barry Spacks)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:18:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stevens, et al
In-Reply-To: <200202181940.g1IJe6Z30457@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020218161816.007ee100@snowcrest.net>

At 02:40 PM 2/18/02 -0500, Finnegan wrote:
I seriously doubt that he openly dictated 
>poems to his secretary...

the version I picked up is that he'd
write in his head, Frost-style, on the way to the
office, continue in longhand at his desk, and then
have his secretary type 'em up -- impossible to
imagine him dictating poems.

Two Stevens anecdotes thrown in:

(1) It's said that his poem "As You Leave the Room" was
based on an impromptu from a Harvard reading that went
on too long and resulted in audience disappearing while
the master continued his outpour;

(2) As one of the editors of a little mag back during the
Punic Wars, I sent off telegrams (a staff inspiration) to
e.e. cummings, W.C. Williams, and Stevens asking for a
poem. We said please respond by collect telegram if
you can't grace us with some of your work. Cummings
sent a poem, Williams sent a poem (then withdrew it
as not good enough, offering a substitute). Stevens
billed us for a collect telegram.

Maybe there's a little thread here about the generosity of poets?

B.






From Cadaly  Mon Feb 18 19:51:31 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:51:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
Message-ID: <d3.6c435be.29a2fb94@aol.com>

There are several reasons the relationships between working and English literature and writing things other than poetry are very very important, and one of them is the current position of the MFA in the academy and the way the programs are structured.

Many, though not all, programs use the "no teaching jobs are available" "Walllace Stevens" "you're all adults with professions doing this for fun" positions to do absolutely nothing as far as jobs/guidance counselling for students, and offer no coursework that would actually lead to jobs, such as preparation for the style manual exams, creation of portfolios and samples for writing or media jobs, etc.

Several new MFA and Creative dissertation PhD programs take this farther:  since you will not ever be teaching poetry, as part of your admissions essay, write why you want to have a career teaching comp / rhet; or since you will not be teaching, no teaching fellowships are available to you, etc.

Academic work during the MFA is often discouraged.  To me, ten years ago, this was always presented as the Sylvia Plath in Chemistry class model, where even as a student in the sciences, she just used to time to be inspired and use the foreignness of the vocabulary and concepts as inspiration.  Thus, "you can take outside courses, but not for a grade."

Additionally, in the PhD programs in literature, creative writing and publication as a hobby is encouraged; now, when there is only a course or two in creative writing available to teach, a PhD with a few stories published will be preferred to an MFA with more extensive publication.  Carrying that even further, UCLA, which does not offer creative writing on the graduate level, and has little funding available until C. Phil, encourages graduate students to assemble creative work to apply for NEA funding <so that they may use this funding to pay for their tuition and expenses rather than to use it to complete art works>.

Rgds,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net



From tadrichards  Mon Feb 18 20:38:10 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:38:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
References: <B8969F98.2704%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <009901c1b8e6$179ae2e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

We offer a a class in dry-key stone masonry at Opus 40, and people of all
genders and sizes take it.

Tad



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Qualifications


> on 2/18/02 12:01 PM, Gwyn McVay at gmcvay at patriot.net wrote:
>
> >> Hi Paul. Calm down. I was joking. I'll let you know, though, next time
I
> >> hear of a 5'0", 100 lb woman being hired (with admittedly no
> >> qualifications) for a construction inspector's position that she could
> >> learn on the job which really consists of doing no work! (Or maybe you
> >> don't think that's funny? I do. In a kind of wry way.)
> >> _______________________________________________
> >
> > Hi Janet. I'm 4'11" and recently had an offer by a master stonemason to
> > teach me to cut stone. He says it's not brute strength per se, as the
> > chisel is not gripped but rather rides loosely in the fist; it's being
> > able to stand the repetitive movements. Admittedly I see things through
> > Zen-colored glasses (all colors and no color at the same time, of
course),
> > but I can't help thinking the "donk... donk... donk" all day might be
> > better at letting the subconscious percolate than my current IT job.
> >
> > Gwyn
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> Thanks, Gwyn. I will never get the picture out of my head of you sitting
> before a massive stone, striking it with a steady donk, donk, donk.
Doesn't
> sound like an ideal job for anyone in the hundred pound range.  I knew a
guy
> at my local grocery store who quit there to become a brick layer.  Six
> months later, he looked like Arnold What's His Name.
>
> Best stick to inspecting, which requires no strength or skill of any kind.
>
> Paul
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From grahamd  Mon Feb 18 20:44:16 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:44:16 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] CFP: Work Anthology
Message-ID: <200202190141.g1J1fpF97220@mx14.mx.voyager.net>

A Call for Manuscripts! Writings that Witness and Reveal Working Hard for
the 
Money: America's Working Poor: Stories and Poems Fiction?Poems? Personal 
Essays? Reportage.   Bottom Dog Press wants to publish a strong book of 
writings for, by, and about America's Working Poor: Working Class, Poor, 
Homeless, Down But Not Out. Give voice to the perspective of workers and 
families struggling to get by. Editors: Mary E. Weems & Larry Smith.   
Payment: $25-$50 and 2 copies.  We will consider reprints. Please indicate 
place and date of publication.  Include a short 75 wd. bio sketch.  Length 
limit to 3 poems, prose to 5,000 wds.   No online submissions. Include SASE.
 
Send to: Bottom Dog Press "Working Hard", c/o Firelands College, Huron, Ohio

44839.  Deadline: March 4, 2002 


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




From trbell  Tue Feb 19 02:02:33 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:02:33 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
References: <d3.6c435be.29a2fb94@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1b913$68799440$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

Unless I disremember most working class poetry tends to be traditional and
content-focused.  I wonder if this is a product of writing down or of trying
to communicate with them (or us)?

I'd be interested in any counter examples, i.e., experimental working
poetry.

tom bell




From Cadaly  Mon Feb 18 22:24:15 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:24:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
Message-ID: <18c.38dc3fb.29a31f5f@aol.com>

one of the poets in combo -- mark sardinha? works on a factory line --
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From gmcvay  Mon Feb 18 22:42:00 2002
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:42:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
References: <B8969F98.2704%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu> <009901c1b8e6$179ae2e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3C71C983.7E247495@patriot.net>

Tad,

I'd love a pointer to more info about that stonemasonry class, and what
"dry-key" means, and all that good stuff.

Part of this is to honor my favorite high school teacher ever, my
extremely supportive and wonderful art teacher, who died far too early
of AIDS. He was an exhibiting sculptor who for some reason spent his
energy teaching strange kids. He cut huge, ribbed, geometric blocks of
Carrara marble.

Thanks--Gwyn



From antrobin  Mon Feb 18 22:44:46 2002
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:44:46 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
References: <d3.6c435be.29a2fb94@aol.com> <001f01c1b913$68799440$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>
Message-ID: <017201c1b8f7$ce85e980$45aeefd8@0021936706>

Hmm.

Here's my stab at "experimental working class poetry"---this poem appears in
the last issue of Exquisite Corpse, as well.

Tony
_______________
Signage

"This bathroom is being clean by a lady janitor"
What this mean (s)      anyone's guess     conjecture

often leads
                    to fresh perception, but it may not
always be useful                       the horse/water tale

could apply      my guess      that she's pristine,
like porcelain          and your problem is the pronoun-

which makes you       tense.  In            the primordial heat
and mess of last week-language        was grunts,

gestures used to convey desire:  hunger, lust,
extreme unction   /    and we continue         to dwell

in inhospitable zones     /     so very hot in here,
the lady janitor wears a glass slipper and confounds

even the most princely of     expectations     you want
a last page, a period /
                                the wind is your nemesis




***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be
better left alone."
Kenneth Koch

***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in
us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"


----- Original Message -----
From: <trbell at home.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry


> Unless I disremember most working class poetry tends to be traditional and
> content-focused.  I wonder if this is a product of writing down or of
trying
> to communicate with them (or us)?
>
> I'd be interested in any counter examples, i.e., experimental working
> poetry.
>
> tom bell
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From tadrichards  Mon Feb 18 23:06:54 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:06:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
References: <18c.38dc3fb.29a31f5f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00fd01c1b8fa$dff9a820$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

The working man will never know
What Auden means, who loves him so.

I forget the author....


Tad



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards

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From bardo  Mon Feb 18 23:35:41 2002
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:35:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
References: <d3.6c435be.29a2fb94@aol.com>
 <001f01c1b913$68799440$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>
 <017201c1b8f7$ce85e980$45aeefd8@0021936706>
Message-ID: <00b101c1b8fe$e3a91ec0$7692be18@danielzi>

Thanks, Tony: nice speculation.

That sign says to me: don't pee here *just now,* eh?
But hey: the wind ain't no nemesis unless you break it.
& if you do, that lady may not want to poke her toe
into the glass slipper poets lamely tend to tote around
just to get to slip into the wearer. (btw: "extreme unction"
fits peculiarly well as 'extreme grunt')

Dan
relapsed/elapsed/prolapsed Catholic


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry


> Hmm.
>
> Here's my stab at "experimental working class poetry"---this poem appears
in
> the last issue of Exquisite Corpse, as well.
>
> Tony
> _______________
> Signage
>
> "This bathroom is being clean by a lady janitor"
> What this mean (s)      anyone's guess     conjecture
>
> often leads
>                     to fresh perception, but it may not
> always be useful                       the horse/water tale
>
> could apply      my guess      that she's pristine,
> like porcelain          and your problem is the pronoun-
>
> which makes you       tense.  In            the primordial heat
> and mess of last week-language        was grunts,
>
> gestures used to convey desire:  hunger, lust,
> extreme unction   /    and we continue         to dwell
>
> in inhospitable zones     /     so very hot in here,
> the lady janitor wears a glass slipper and confounds
>
> even the most princely of     expectations     you want
> a last page, a period /
>                                 the wind is your nemesis
>
>
>
>
> ***
> "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
> which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would
be
> better left alone."
> Kenneth Koch
>
> ***
> ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its
in
> us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
> Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <trbell at home.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 11:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
>
>
> > Unless I disremember most working class poetry tends to be traditional
and
> > content-focused.  I wonder if this is a product of writing down or of
> trying
> > to communicate with them (or us)?
> >
> > I'd be interested in any counter examples, i.e., experimental working
> > poetry.
> >
> > tom bell
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From grahamd  Tue Feb 19 00:02:31 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:02:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <200202190500.g1J50VL47016@mx15.mx.voyager.net>

Thinking of Stevens's fabled dislocation between day job and poetry--has
anyone mentioned William Carlos Williams in this thread? 

Seems to me that WCW is a poet whose paying occupation was integral with his
poetry, and perhaps even his poetics.   Don't know what, if anything, this
might mean, for I'm not sure I could develop the point very convincingly. 
Just an intuition.  When I read David Ignatow, too ( a great disciple of
WCW) I certainly *feel* that his entire sensibility was formed by his long
years of working crummy jobs that he disliked, and that this is not
irrelevant to the nature of his writing.  

On an somewhat related note, I'm also struck by the infrequency with which
many academic poets seem to be moved to write about teaching, the classroom,
campus life, etc.  Yet as has been noted, it's a demanding job--demanding 
considerable creativity, endurance, passion; not to mention regularly
displaying healthy doses of absurdity, joy, self-doubt, paranoia,
etc.--things one might suppose would spark poetry.

Maybe for many of us the poetry is an escape from our relentless paying
jobs, and writing about it would just feel claustrophobic?  I certainly
don't think academic life is intrinsically less interesting than office
work, the law, carpentry, or whatever.  But a great many teaching poets
avoid writing about it, don't they?  

There are exceptions, of course, and in fact an entire recent anthology
devoted to such:  *In Praise of Pedagogy*, edited by Wendy Bishop and David
Starkey.  

David Graham


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================



From Cadaly  Tue Feb 19 00:09:11 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:09:11 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <53.128ae52e.29a337f7@aol.com>

lots of academic novels....

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From gudding  Tue Feb 19 00:13:18 2002
From: gudding (Gudding)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:13:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <B8969EA8.2701%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <sc70dcec.013@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020218230033.02df1330@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>

>Then Paul said,
>My worse job, as far as being a poet goes, was my two year stint teaching in
>a ghetto junior high in Baltimore.  After work, I'd be so exhausted I'd take
>two and three hour naps.  I must have written some of the poems that got me
>a grad fellowship at the time, but I'll be damned if I can remember writing
>anything those two years.

My worst job was actually my best job: working as a deckhand on an 
intercoastal freighter in the Bering Sea and Gulf of Alaska for ten months. 
Later I became a bosun. I sailed on that boat with 8 men, each of whom was 
very well read but, well, tattered around the "fucking" edges, if you know 
what i mean. We were out for 30 days at a time, me and 8 sociopaths. When I 
first signed on, I was a vegetarian and a practicing Theravadan Buddhist. I 
would sit vipassana meditation 2 hours each day, once before working my 12 
hour shift and once before bed. By the 4th month, I ate meat, got in 
fistfights, smoked cigarettes, and swore. Before that I'd been a deckhand 
on tugboats. Tugboat sailors are civilized people. But I noticed something 
interesting: sailors on tugboats read pulpy things (detective novels etc); 
sailors on freighters read Poe, Kazantzakis, Emerson, John Demos, etc, 
played the bagpipes and had a fondness for firearms. I once watched Lt. 
Petey Ansell pump 30 slugs into the three foot long penis (flaccid) of a 
supine dead teenage humpback whale floating on the surface halfway between 
Seattle and Chignik Alaska. The captain stopped the boat (upwind) and Petey 
emptied a few clips into his dick. Then we sailed on.

I will never forget those days.

Gabriel Gudding




From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Feb 19 01:04:36 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:04:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
Message-ID: <20020219060436.3C0CC2757@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From trbell  Tue Feb 19 05:10:22 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 04:10:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
References: <200202190500.g1J50VL47016@mx15.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <00ec01c1b92d$a7c8b4e0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

apropos WCW, being a doctor myself I tend to see his poetry coming from his
work, but I could be wrong?


is something I wrote in re this (animated version at
http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/butdr/wagesan.gif

tom bell

poetry
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From snospx  Tue Feb 19 01:51:16 2002
From: snospx (Barry Spacks)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:51:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Teaching Work
In-Reply-To: <200202190617.g1J6H4Z06077@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020218225116.0080d3e0@snowcrest.net>

At 01:17 AM 2/19/02 -0500, David Graham wrote:
>
>On an somewhat related note, I'm also struck by the infrequency with which
>many academic poets seem to be moved to write about teaching, the classroom,
>campus life, etc. 

I've done a few -- here's a short one:

(B. Spacks)
***************

THEMES ON LOVE

Grading themes on love at M.I.T,
one-man Symposium at 3
A.M., across the court I saw a light:
another office-holder working late.
While Plato on a silver pillow rode
above the waves of pre-sophisitc prose
I jotted teacher's notions that were not
as brave as our two lamps against the glut
of dawn. But when I clicked mine off
his too as once was gone: had been
my echo in a distant sheen
of glass: had been my own, and I
was lonely then, and wrote
these English words.




From Arielpf123  Tue Feb 19 07:52:28 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:52:28 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <124.c143195.29a3a48c@aol.com>

here's one of mine  written mostly for fun and out of total frustration when 
i was working at a "Behavioral Health" clinic:

pat fargnoli

Rip-Roaring Hannah Attends the Staff Meeting 


Tensile beside me at the conference table,
her leather-sheathed body slides 
to the chair-edge, black boots tap the tile, 
her eyes have that struck-match look
she gets when she?s about 
to get us in hot water, 
and the boss is saying: 
add hours; work harder for less--   
he?s saying: do this and that,
he?s been droning on for a half-hour.
And later she tells me
it was the volcano
that started in her toes, and rushed up 
the hot core of her panther-sleek torso.  
What I saw was her lips opening,
the words shooting out --
an unstoppable lava river.
The room went bright with danger.  
She was up then and pacing, 
flinging her arms around, and no word 
he begins to say, makes it far
because she lays him out flat--that stupid,
whinny, no-ass wimp, tweeping chicken.
She calls him slimy salamander, skink,
sniveling mole, worm snake, 
narrow-mouthed toad. God, 
she blasts through the leaden
air--a tower of power, heavy metal,
and everyone is frozen to their seats.
I?d muscle her down but she?s 
the grenade in my pocket, 
my marvelous shithead, glamourous inferno,
my red-headed Rambo, my rage entire.
Hell--she scares me but without her,
I am a mealy-mouthed moth, a slug, 
the corpse of a cow on a carving table. 



From Robtberner  Tue Feb 19 09:03:05 2002
From: Robtberner (Robtberner at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:03:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <121.c3ec7c5.29a3b519@aol.com>

   Rip-Roaring Hannah is certainly more interesting than the speaker of the 
poem.

                   Robert Berner



From Robtberner  Tue Feb 19 09:09:14 2002
From: Robtberner (Robtberner at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:09:14 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: stone masonry
Message-ID: <37.230a1591.29a3b68a@aol.com>

   dear tad,

     can i take the course by correspondence?
     are you guys coming down this weekend?
     thanks of the lead to new-poetry--i had about 80 thousand e-mails from 
them this morning, most of them not very interesting.  most of the aesthetic 
discussions/arguments don't do much for me--they're mostly new combatants in 
a very old arena, dulled weapons and duller tactics. i do like the idea of an 
anthology of working-class stuff, as long as it's not predominantly about 
teaching.
     love and la bamba,

                bob



From Arielpf123  Tue Feb 19 09:16:43 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:16:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: stone masonry
Message-ID: <130.99efaa0.29a3b84b@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/19/02 9:10:20 AM, Robtberner at aol.com writes:

<< dear tad,

     can i take the course by correspondence?
     are you guys coming down this weekend?
     thanks of the lead to new-poetry--i had about 80 thousand e-mails from 
them this morning, most of them not very interesting.  most of the aesthetic 
discussions/arguments don't do much for me--they're mostly new combatants in 
a very old arena, dulled weapons and duller tactics. i do like the idea of an 
anthology of working-class stuff, as long as it's not predominantly about 
teaching.
     love and la bamba, >>

LOL Bob.... I think you screwed up!!!!  (and thanks for the comment on 
Hannah!)

pat



From Robtberner  Tue Feb 19 09:31:36 2002
From: Robtberner (Robtberner at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:31:36 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: screw-ups
Message-ID: <12f.cb0394a.29a3bbc8@aol.com>

   amen, and sorry about that. i meant to send the longer message to tad 
richards only, and the comment on hannah to the new-poetry site. what the 
hell, i'm an old luddite stumbling his way along the Via Computera, so stuff 
will happen. i swear to be more careful in future. 
   regards,

      bob



From Arielpf123  Tue Feb 19 09:14:55 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:14:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <141.9c5a620.29a3b7df@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/19/02 9:04:37 AM, Robtberner at aol.com writes:

<< Rip-Roaring Hannah is certainly more interesting than the speaker of the 
poem.

                   Robert Berner >>

HA!!!  She IS the speaker of the poem...both are.

pat



From Jholmes  Tue Feb 19 11:56:25 2002
From: Jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:56:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] working poetry
Message-ID: <sc722167.078@athena.boisestate.edu>

Dear Tom Bell--

Either that's a cuss word on par with Joyce's creation, or my
mailreader isn't reading your poem just right.

Here's a rather mainstream workpoem by Linda Dyer that in fact does
refer to the reason a poet might hold an office job: 

On the Use of Office Products as Beauty Aids

    "I have known the inexorable sadness of pencils,
     Neat in their boxes, dolor of pad and paper-weight..."
               --Theodore Roethke


Free use of office supplies
could be called a benefit
of my profession; I'm never
without remedies. Paper clip
holds a teased hairdo,
package tape around my waist 
gives me form; ledger green 
correction fluid makes a fine
eyeshadow: smart
as well as practical.
Say it's true the unkind 
words of others actually cling
to our skin until we bathe;
I use file-folders under
my blouse as a deflector-vest.
_This is the life I live
so that out of it
I can create another._
With an arsenal of mechanical
pencils and hand-held dictaphone
I go into the night
and walk with the moon
down urination alley
to the employee parking lot,
skirt held with a binder clip
where a button failed.

But the policeman assumes something
disloyal about the three-hole punch
and postage meter under my arm
and invites me to the station,
where he takes my fingerprints,
one of which looks unusual to him
with its series of dots, until
he recognizes I'm wearing
one of those rubber fingers
a secretary uses to page through
deposition volumes looking for
some defendant's name,
the very name which paused
the stenographer's fingers
over a shorthand machine--
think of the testimony lost
while she spelled it 
letter by letter.

The cop questions me: how long
have I been at my job, do I
get retirement, why a not-bad-looking
woman would stay so late
on a weekend without extra
pay? I tell him about the scientist
who suggested that our moon
influenced the tides--how he
was considered not only foolish,
but a dangerous occultist
by his scientific peers;
yes, the very moon walked upon by men,
the one consulted by lovers to predict
good fortune or impermanence,
the one which will follow me home.

--Linda Dyer, from "Fictional Teeth"



From JforJames  Tue Feb 19 11:56:16 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:56:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] exedra; working with one's hands
Message-ID: <198.283022b.29a3ddb0@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/18/02 10:43:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
gmcvay at patriot.net writes:
> 
>  I'd love a pointer to more info about that stonemasonry class, and what
>  "dry-key" means, and all that good stuff.
>
Ever since I saw an exhibit of Alma-Tadema's paintings I've been in love
not with his beautiful tho stylized women, but with a semicircular stone 
bench called an exedra. In Greco-Roman times, these were constructed 
outdoors so that a few people could gather 'round to hear a poem 
sung or recited or to hear a lyre player. So civilized and pleasing a 
piece of small public architecture...see an exedra here:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/2148750/13776695zWSmtPZjWl
or see a two-tiered exedra in "Sappho & Alcaeus":
http://216.247.69.107/sappho.html
Gwyn, If you a need a project to finish your apprenticeship, you can come 
and build one of these in my backyard.

Early in life the philosopher Karl Popper completed his apprenticeship
as a cabinetmaker by building a glass-fronted, hanging cupboard 
(which he filled with books); he's said to have stated that he learned 
more about the theory of knowledge from his apprentice-master than 
from any of his other teachers.
Finnegan
  



From daisyf1  Tue Feb 19 12:38:32 2002
From: daisyf1 (Daisy Fried)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:38:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] teacher poems
Message-ID: <20020219.123832.-173851.4.daisyf1@juno.com>

> >On an somewhat related note, I'm also struck by the infrequency 
> with which
> >many academic poets seem to be moved to write about teaching, the 
> classroom,
> >campus life, etc. 

And I'm struck by the fact that when they do, they very frequently seem
to write out of condescension towards their students. Which always
somehow reads (between the lines) as envy...which they don't seem to be
aware of! 

But not yours, B. Spacks. Thanks for posting that.

Daisy Fried
 




From j-mccann1  Tue Feb 19 13:54:53 2002
From: j-mccann1 (Janet McCann)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:54:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [New-Poetry]
In-Reply-To: <023601c09a8b$86b03380$6501a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
References: <3c.7a213d7.27c29631@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020219125453.00942a10@neo.tamu.edu>

Is this list still in operation?  If so, am I still on it?  Thanks





From JforJames  Tue Feb 19 13:47:41 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:47:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Whyte: Poetry Consultant to Business
Message-ID: <177.3d8cc51.29a3f7cd@aol.com>

http://www.davidwhyte.com/tpl/about.tpl
Work is a very serious matter indeed. We freight our work with meaning and 
identity, and fight hard and long for some kind of purpose in our endeavors. 
Organizations need to understand the wellsprings of human creativity in order 
to shape conversations that are invitational to an individual's greater 
powers. Good poetry can provide explosive insight, grant needed courage and 
stir the dormant imagination of individuals and organizations alike.



From JforJames  Tue Feb 19 13:54:17 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:54:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?UTF-8?Q?2002=20Poetry=20Publication=20Showcase=E2=80=B9=20SEND?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?=20BOOKS=20NOW?=
Message-ID: <b6.6d33687.29a3f959@aol.com>

Date:   2/19/02 1:50:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   betsy at poetshouse.org (Poets House)
To: jforjames at aol.com (Jforjames)

2002 Poetry Publication Showcase? SEND BOOKS NOW

Dear Publisher,

Poets House, a 40,000-volume poetry archive and literary center located in
New York City, will open its annual Poetry Publication Showcase on April 6,
2002.  The Showcase is an exhibit of all of the year's new poetry books and
a festival of events presented during National Poetry Month.  Last year's
Showcase included more than 1,300 books of poetry, representing the work of
more than 500 publishers: commercial, university, independent, and
micro-presses.  Inclusion in the Showcase ensures that your books are seen
in an exhibit which has become the reference point for all who are
interested in poetry. 

Now, our newly expanded library provides year-round exhibition space for
the Showcase as well as other treasures from the Poets House collection. 
This year, as usual, the Showcase will open with a celebration of the
exhibit and continue throughout the month with a festival of events, among
them a panel discussion examining the conditions for literary publishing in
this new economy.  After April, books from the exhibit will remain on
display throughout the year. Inclusion in this exhibition is absolutely
FREE.  

You are invited to participate in the Showcase by sending us review copies
of all your new books for exhibit. Even though the February 14 deadline has
passed, you can still participate by sending your books in immediately.
March 8 is the final deadline for your books to be listed in the catalogue.

What does inclusion in the Showcase do for you?
?Organized by publisher so that the work of your press can be seen as a
whole,  it provides a unique forum for literary branding.
?It makes your books available to the acquisitions and prize committees who
come to Poets House to review all of the new books for the year. 
?It means your books will be listed in the Directory of American Poetry
Books online, which provides bibliographic detail for all of the books
displayed.  
?It secures your books a place in the national archive we are building here
at Poets House.
?And it provides year-round exposure to readers and writers of poetry.

Which books qualify for inclusion?
All books of poetry (full-length collections, anthologies and chapbooks),
poetry-related prose, poetry audio and videotapes, CD's, and computer media
published since January of 2001 qualify for exhibit, excluding vanity press
publications. All international books and selected Children's titles will
be exhibited during the Showcase. Books published prior to 2001 are welcome
additions to the library and will be added to the Directory. 

To be sure your new books are included:
Publishers may submit forms, read guidelines and see the Directory of
American Poetry Books online at www.poetshouse.org/showcase.htm. Complete
one copy of the form for each new book published since the beginning of
2001. Send the completed forms with two copies of each book to Poets House,
72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor, New York, NY 10012. The final deadline for
inclusion in the catalogue is March 8, 2002.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact me at
212-431-7920 x19 or at betsy at poetshouse.org.

Sincerely,
Betsy Fagin
Showcase Coordinator



From trbell  Tue Feb 19 02:58:55 2002
From: trbell (trbell at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:58:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
References: <d3.6c435be.29a2fb94@aol.com>
 <001f01c1b913$68799440$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>
 <017201c1b8f7$ce85e980$45aeefd8@0021936706>
Message-ID: <005001c1b91b$47d547e0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

nice, Tony.  my post was more of a gibeto generate some discussion even
though it does seem true as a generalization.

tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry


> Hmm.
>
> Here's my stab at "experimental working class poetry"---this poem appears
in
> the last issue of Exquisite Corpse, as well.
>
> Tony
> _______________
> Signage
>
> "This bathroom is being clean by a lady janitor"
> What this mean (s)      anyone's guess     conjecture
>
> often leads
>                     to fresh perception, but it may not
> always be useful                       the horse/water tale
>
> could apply      my guess      that she's pristine,
> like porcelain          and your problem is the pronoun-
>
> which makes you       tense.  In            the primordial heat
> and mess of last week-language        was grunts,
>
> gestures used to convey desire:  hunger, lust,
> extreme unction   /    and we continue         to dwell
>
> in inhospitable zones     /     so very hot in here,
> the lady janitor wears a glass slipper and confounds
>
> even the most princely of     expectations     you want
> a last page, a period /
>                                 the wind is your nemesis
>
>
>
>
> ***
> "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
> which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would
be
> better left alone."
> Kenneth Koch
>
> ***
> ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its
in
> us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
> Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <trbell at home.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 11:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
>
>
> > Unless I disremember most working class poetry tends to be traditional
and
> > content-focused.  I wonder if this is a product of writing down or of
> trying
> > to communicate with them (or us)?
> >
> > I'd be interested in any counter examples, i.e., experimental working
> > poetry.
> >
> > tom bell
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From trbell  Tue Feb 19 17:45:14 2002
From: trbell (trbell at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:45:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] working poetry
References: <sc722167.078@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <010101c1b997$19446ec0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

probably the mailreader is a problem.  Try the url for the animated version?

tom

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janet Holmes" <Jholmes at boisestate.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 10:56 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] working poetry


> Dear Tom Bell--
> 
> Either that's a cuss word on par with Joyce's creation, or my
> mailreader isn't reading your poem just right.
> 
> Here's a rather mainstream workpoem by Linda Dyer that in fact does
> refer to the reason a poet might hold an office job: 
> 
> On the Use of Office Products as Beauty Aids
> 
>     "I have known the inexorable sadness of pencils,
>      Neat in their boxes, dolor of pad and paper-weight..."
>                --Theodore Roethke
> 
> 
> Free use of office supplies
> could be called a benefit
> of my profession; I'm never
> without remedies. Paper clip
> holds a teased hairdo,
> package tape around my waist 
> gives me form; ledger green 
> correction fluid makes a fine
> eyeshadow: smart
> as well as practical.
> Say it's true the unkind 
> words of others actually cling
> to our skin until we bathe;
> I use file-folders under
> my blouse as a deflector-vest.
> _This is the life I live
> so that out of it
> I can create another._
> With an arsenal of mechanical
> pencils and hand-held dictaphone
> I go into the night
> and walk with the moon
> down urination alley
> to the employee parking lot,
> skirt held with a binder clip
> where a button failed.
> 
> But the policeman assumes something
> disloyal about the three-hole punch
> and postage meter under my arm
> and invites me to the station,
> where he takes my fingerprints,
> one of which looks unusual to him
> with its series of dots, until
> he recognizes I'm wearing
> one of those rubber fingers
> a secretary uses to page through
> deposition volumes looking for
> some defendant's name,
> the very name which paused
> the stenographer's fingers
> over a shorthand machine--
> think of the testimony lost
> while she spelled it 
> letter by letter.
> 
> The cop questions me: how long
> have I been at my job, do I
> get retirement, why a not-bad-looking
> woman would stay so late
> on a weekend without extra
> pay? I tell him about the scientist
> who suggested that our moon
> influenced the tides--how he
> was considered not only foolish,
> but a dangerous occultist
> by his scientific peers;
> yes, the very moon walked upon by men,
> the one consulted by lovers to predict
> good fortune or impermanence,
> the one which will follow me home.
> 
> --Linda Dyer, from "Fictional Teeth"
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Tue Feb 19 18:03:54 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:03:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] teacher poems
Message-ID: <3b.2245402a.29a433da@aol.com>

I stumble on this Canadian Poetry site when looking for theWayman
poem...why don't we know more of the poets from the Great North?
http://www.library.utoronto.ca/canpoetry/index.html

This one by Tom Wayman is amusing...

DID I MISS ANYTHING?

    Question frequently asked by
    students after missing a class

Nothing. When we realized you weren't here
we sat with our hands folded on our desks
in silence, for the full two hours

Everything. I gave an exam worth
40 per cent of the grade for this term
and assigned some reading due today
on which I'm about to hand out a quiz
worth 50 per cent

Nothing. None of the content of this course
has value or meaning
Take as many days off as you like:
any activities we undertake as a class
I assure you will not matter either to you or me
and are without purpose

Everything. A few minutes after we began last time
a shaft of light descended and an angel
or other heavenly being appeared
and revealed to us what each woman or man must do
to attain divine wisdom in this life and
the hereafter
This is the last time the class will meet
before we disperse to bring this good news to all people
on earth

Nothing. When you are not present
how could something significant occur?

Everything. Contained in this classroom
is a microcosm of human existence
assembled for you to query and examine and ponder
This is not the only place such an opportunity has been
gathered

but it was one place

And you weren't here




From tadrichards  Tue Feb 19 18:30:54 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:30:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: stone masonry
References: <37.230a1591.29a3b68a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001101c1b9a0$5eb4d5e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Looks like just me coming...Pat has to work. What's the schedule again?



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: <Robtberner at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 9:09 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: stone masonry


>    dear tad,
>
>      can i take the course by correspondence?
>      are you guys coming down this weekend?
>      thanks of the lead to new-poetry--i had about 80 thousand e-mails
from
> them this morning, most of them not very interesting.  most of the
aesthetic
> discussions/arguments don't do much for me--they're mostly new combatants
in
> a very old arena, dulled weapons and duller tactics. i do like the idea of
an
> anthology of working-class stuff, as long as it's not predominantly about
> teaching.
>      love and la bamba,
>
>                 bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From tadrichards  Tue Feb 19 18:54:44 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:54:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: screw-ups
References: <12f.cb0394a.29a3bbc8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002001c1b9a0$cebd4160$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

That's OK...it gets worse. I, who should know better, didn't notice Bob had
sent his message to the whole list, and just blithely answered it. It's a
good thing I didn't say anything like "this list is OK except for old
blatherskites like David Graham and Sam Gwynn."



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: <Robtberner at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 9:31 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: screw-ups


>    amen, and sorry about that. i meant to send the longer message to tad
> richards only, and the comment on hannah to the new-poetry site. what the
> hell, i'm an old luddite stumbling his way along the Via Computera, so
stuff
> will happen. i swear to be more careful in future.
>    regards,
>
>       bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Tue Feb 19 20:09:43 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:09:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket Lives
Message-ID: <53.12970a23.29a45157@aol.com>

Date:         Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:21:03 +1100
Reply-To:     John Tranter <jtranter at JACKET.ZIP.COM.AU>
Sender:       british & irish poets <BRITISH-POETS at JISCMAIL.AC.UK>
From:         John Tranter <jtranter at JACKET.ZIP.COM.AU>
Subject:      "Jacket 16: still going strong!"
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed

Dear friends:
There has been a little misunderstanding about Jacket magazine on the talk 
circuits of the Net, which is entirely my fault. Announcing Jacket 16 
recently, I said:
_______________________

Announcing (well, pre-announcing) Jacket 16,
due to close in March 2002  --

...another Special Giant Bumper Issue, again, already:

        http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket16/index.html
_______________________

When I said "due to close in March 2002", I didn't mean that Jacket was 
going to close -- heaven forbid! I meant that number 16 was going to close 
-- that is, I would stop uploading new material to it in mid-March 2002 -- 
and I would get to work on number 17. And so on.

In fact I have been uploading bits and pieces to all the Jacket  issues up 
to number 20, due to close -- whoops, I mean due to be *published* -- in 
December 2002. You can reach them all from the links at the top of the 
Jacket homepage, and at the top of every Jacket issue's Contents page.

I have no plans to close Jacket.
And I promise to think more clearly in future!!

In the meantime, Jacket 16 has been growing bit by bit:
_______________________

Angel Hair magazine: The Sixties and Seventies
A sampler of writing selected by Jacket editor John Tranter from the 
630-page Granary Books anthology of material from the collection of Angel 
Hair magazine and books edited by Lewis Warsh and Anne Waldman between 1966 
and 1978. Another thirty pages of poetry and prose will be made available 
as permissions come in. So far we have:

Introduction ? Anne Waldman
Introduction ? Lewis Warsh
John Ashbery, The Hod Carrier
Bill Berkson, Sheer Strips
Ted Berrigan, from To Clear the Range
Ted Berrigan, Two prose poems
Ted Berrigan, For You
Edwin Denby, ?Out of Bronx subway...?
Dick Gallup, Guard Duty
Lee Harwood, The Seaside
Tony Towle, Poem (?The lead drains...?)
_______________________

Feature: Joe Brainard, 1942?1994
        From Pressed Wafer:
Bill Corbett, Introduction
Anselm Berrigan, ?I remember hearing Joe read?
Lee Ann Brown, ?Joe Over Easy?
Tom Carey, ?Joe B.?
Maxine Chernoff, ?Sonnet: Some Things I Miss About Joe?
Tom Clark, ?My Joe Brainards?
Elaine Equi, ?A Freshly Painted Poem?
Paul Hoover, ?Winter (Mirror)?
Nathan Kernan, ?Premonition?
Wayne Koestenbaum, ?Two Little Elegies for Joe Brainard?
David Lehman, ?For Joe Brainard?
Ange Mlinko, ?Boston Flower Market?
Eileen Myles, ?Worst Seat in the House?
Charles North, ?Romantic Note 1?
Jerome Sala, ?I?m Glad I Don?t Understand the Writing of Joe Brainard?
David Trinidad, ?9 Cigarettes?
        Other material:
Bill Berkson: Working with Joe
Kristin Prevallet interviews Kenward Elmslie
Kristin Prevallet Joe Brainard & Poetry
_______________________

Overland magazine feature -- Guest Editor: Pam Brown    

        Prose:
Pam Brown: Introduction
Ken Bolton reviews New and Selected Poems, by Tony Towle
Murray Edmond: No Paragraphs (Meditations on Noh, Poetry, Theatre and the 
Avant-garde)

        Poems:
Maxine Chernoff
Gillian Conoley
Lidija Cvetkovic
Mary di Michele
Linh Dinh
Laurie Duggan
Michael Farrell
Denis Gallagher
Jane Gibian
Noelle Kocot
Bronwyn Lea
Michele Leggott
Kate Lilley
Rachel Loden
Geraldine McKenzie
Eileen Myles
Ted Nielsen
Alice Notley
Brendan Ryan
Ron Silliman
Sam Wagan Watson
_______________________

Feature: New Zealand
-- Smoking Jacket ? Philip Mead reviews the Big Smoke anthology, and books 
by Michele Leggott and David Howard
-- Terence Diggory: The Red Wheelbarrow Goes Global ? The Value of the 
Local in William Carlos Williams and Postmodern Art  (featuring the art of 
German Wolfgang Kaiser and the video art of New Zealander Bridget Sutherland)
-- Peter Robinson reviews Bill Manhire

        Poems:
-- Alan Brunton: In the Wilderness of Being
-- Janet Charman: Two Poems
-- Murray Edmond: Three Ballads
-- Michele Leggott: milk and honey taken far far away (i)
-- Pooja Mittal: Three poems
-- Ian Wedde: Epistle: to John Dickson
-- Yang Lian: Two poems
-- Mark Young: 3 Poems
_______________________

Ed Dorn: Epilogue ? The Last Range -- Excerpt from Tom Clark?s biography of 
Ed Dorn
_______________________

Interviews

Kent Johnson interviews Eliot Weinberger
Toh Hsien Min interviews Bob Perelman
John Tranter interviews Chris Emery, of Salt Publications
Nina Zivancevic in Paris interviews Jerome Rothenberg
_______________________

Memoir: George Evans: A Working Boy?s Whitman: ?...one must question how it 
could be that a man who lived with his eyes and heart wide open, could have 
so little to say about certain matters that truly contradicted his notions 
of liberty and freedom.?
_______________________

Sister Sites: Ram Devineni interviews Ravi Shankar, editor of Drunken Boat
_______________________

Michael Hrebeniak: ? In Memoriam Fielding Dawson, 1930?2002
_______________________

Reviews:
-- Aaron Belz reviews I Used to Be Ashamed of My Striped Face, by Mike Topp
-- Aaron Belz reviews Understanding Objects, by Vincent Katz
-- Tom Hibbard reviews Strange Things Begin to Happen When a Meteor Crashes 
into the Arizona Desert, by Michael Basinski
-- Kevin Gallagher reviews All Prose, by William Corbett
-- Tom Hibbard reviews HEKA, by Michael Basinski
-- Mark Neely reviews Mary Jo Bang and Ange Mlinko
-- Philip Nikolayev reviews Michael Palmer and Brian Henry
-- Larry Sawyer reviews Poems From the Akashic Record by Ira Cohen
-- Larry Sawyer reviews Goofbook: for Jack Kerouac by Philip Whalen
-- Mark Scroggins reviews The Shrubberies by Ronald Johnson
_______________________

Poems: Miekal And / Johannes Beilharz  /  Maria Damon / Sharon Dolin / 
Chris Emery / Edwin Honig / Rebecca Lu Kiernan  / Pura L?pez-Colom? / Jeni 
Olin / Peter Porter / Spencer Selby / Andrzej Sosnowski
_______________________

There's more to come, too, including a special feature on Tom Raworth, and 
other bits and pieces.

... thanks for your support. Enjoy!

                                John Tranter

 



From grahamd  Tue Feb 19 20:19:07 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:19:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: screw-ups
Message-ID: <200202200118.g1K1IqM34964@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

Who you calling *old*, you geezer?!  

David Graham
Certified Public Blatherskite and Registered Gaffer

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: "theoldmole" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: screw-ups
>Date: Tue, Feb 19, 2002, 5:54 PM
>

>That's OK...it gets worse. I, who should know better, didn't notice Bob had
>sent his message to the whole list, and just blithely answered it. It's a
>good thing I didn't say anything like "this list is OK except for old
>blatherskites like David Graham and Sam Gwynn."
>
>



From Cadaly  Tue Feb 19 22:09:48 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:09:48 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] working poetry
Message-ID: <12.1aacebd3.29a46d7c@aol.com>

the journal tripwire had a working issue in which I had a "word processing" 
piece; one of the editors used to work with migrant fruit harvesters during 
the summers -- she's got a long poem called "The Cherry Pickers" (great 
title, I think)

Rgds,
Catherine
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From rwilsnac  Wed Feb 20 02:12:41 2002
From: rwilsnac (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:12:41 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020219230156.00da5538@medicine.nodak.edu>

As I plod along a week behind my e-mail, in between writing
multiple choice questions, I'm glad the poetry-work thread
has lasted long enough to insert my favorite (and atypical)
Gary Snyder poem (maybe as a coda):


The Wipers' Secret

Down in the bilges
or up out of sight on the bulkheads
time after time
year after year
we paint right over the dirt.

The first engineer
he knows,
but what can he say ?
the company says
save time.

		from The Back Country



From gmcvay  Wed Feb 20 00:21:17 2002
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:21:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tangent: Gary Snyder
References: <3.0.32.20020219230156.00da5538@medicine.nodak.edu>
Message-ID: <3C73324A.267EAD20@patriot.net>

Can anyone help me track down the Snyder poem that includes snatches of
the 1611 English ballad "The Three Ravens"? I can't find it in
_Mountains and Rivers_.

Thanks--Gwyn



From gudding  Wed Feb 20 00:28:14 2002
From: gudding (Gudding)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:28:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <20020219060436.3C0CC2757@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219232341.0296ae60@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>

In fact it was in the engine room of that ship, the Coastal Nomad, that I 
first read _Moby Dick_. I will never forget that experience, immersed in MD 
at the second of a four-story tall engine room on the night shift (midnight 
to six) reading with industrial noise suppressor pinching my head and every 
15 minutes getting up to check the 54 gauges on the ginormous flaking 
turbo-diesel. Those were manly days.

Gabe Gudding


At 10:04 PM 2/18/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Hey Gabe,
>
>Could this be the story of "Moldy Dick"?  ;-)
>
>--- Gudding <gudding at olemiss.edu> wrote:
> >
>  I once watched Lt.
> >Petey Ansell pump 30 slugs into the three foot long penis (flaccid) of a
> >supine dead teenage humpback whale floating on the surface halfway between
> >Seattle and Chignik Alaska. The captain stopped the boat (upwind) and Petey
> >emptied a few clips into his dick. Then we sailed on.
> >
> >I will never forget those days.
> >
> >Gabriel Gudding
>
>Poetry Catamaran
>
>"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known 
>mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
>Robert R. Cobb
>AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
>http://rrcobb.tripod.com
> >
> >>__
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From odysseus34  Wed Feb 20 00:10:10 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:10:10 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
References: <sc70fe59.048@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <3C732F9E.29BCE59F@earthlink.net>


Janet Holmes wrote:

The trade-off is worth

> it for a lot of us (as I said, the work you stay up at night writing is,
> if minimally, rewarded in academe), but the idea that it requires no
> sacrifice is uninformed.

Once again:  who said it required "no" sacrifice?  I didn't.  I'm not aware
of anyone else who did.  So who are you responding to, other than a
strawman?

Also, other people's advice/experience apparently doesn't work at all for
you (or so you keep insisting).  Is it so hard to believe that other people
might like to trade anecdotes about what it's like to try to balance work
and poetry, or do we all have to conform to what you think is useful?

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Wed Feb 20 00:32:12 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:32:12 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
References: <200202190500.g1J50VL47016@mx15.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3C7334C6.D0643B03@earthlink.net>


David Graham wrote:

> Thinking of Stevens's fabled dislocation between day job and poetry--has
> anyone mentioned William Carlos Williams in this thread?
>
> Seems to me that WCW is a poet whose paying occupation was integral with his
> poetry, and perhaps even his poetics.   Don't know what, if anything, this
> might mean, for I'm not sure I could develop the point very convincingly.
> Just an intuition.

I'm reminded of Natalie Goldberg's characterizing some of WCW's poems as
"prescription-pad-sized poems" in "Writing Down the Bones" (this was a
compliment on her part).  She visualizes WCW as writing poetry in between
patients in his office.  I don't know how true to life that is, though.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From grahamd  Wed Feb 20 01:42:35 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:42:35 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Teaching Work
Message-ID: <200202200642.g1K6gJv21164@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

I like Barry's poem, too.  

I haven't written a ton of teaching poems, but as the years go by I seem to
commit more and more.  I agree with Daisy that the teacher's lounge poem,
raw complaining about the students, is hard to pull off--but I've read some
good ones.  

Anyway, hope this one of mine doesn't seem too condescending.

A MIND OF WINTER


I recognize the pose:  casual cool,
one arm spread along the top slat
of the bench, legs wide in disdain,
a gaze aiming at unreadable.
For two days he's sprawled at ease
near the student union, making it clear
he's not moving come class or final.
The season's second snowfall
glazes his face and limbs.
The fact that he's sculpted in snow
explains much of his immobility
but not all.  For he's so much the ghost
of the unlistener, that back-row child
who passes through wisdom
as through the weather, elemental
and unaltered, that I know
I've seen him sprawled over half
my life.  Not to mention that
I've been that boy, chilling myself
from inside out with the ice
of unknowing.  So I cannot pass
without a kind thought tossed
like a whiff of cool wind
in his direction.  His eyeless gaze
cannot blink away new snow
building, nor can my squint
focus his form.  By tomorrow
both our heads will have been
knocked off and reasserted
more times than we can tell.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: Barry Spacks <snospx at silcom.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Teaching Work
>Date: Tue, Feb 19, 2002, 12:51 AM
>

>At 01:17 AM 2/19/02 -0500, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>On an somewhat related note, I'm also struck by the infrequency with which
>>many academic poets seem to be moved to write about teaching, the classroom,
>>campus life, etc. 
>
>I've done a few -- here's a short one:
>
>(B. Spacks)
>***************
>
>THEMES ON LOVE
>
>Grading themes on love at M.I.T,
>one-man Symposium at 3
>A.M., across the court I saw a light:
>another office-holder working late.
>While Plato on a silver pillow rode
>above the waves of pre-sophisitc prose
>I jotted teacher's notions that were not
>as brave as our two lamps against the glut
>of dawn. But when I clicked mine off
>his too as once was gone: had been
>my echo in a distant sheen
>of glass: had been my own, and I
>was lonely then, and wrote
>these English words.
>



From odysseus34  Wed Feb 20 01:12:30 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:12:30 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tiny Insane Voluptuousness
References: <200202172121.g1HLLBR61100@mx4.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3C733E34.B485A33C@earthlink.net>


David Graham wrote:

> that tiny insane voluptuousness,
> Getting this done, finally finishing that.
> --Theodor Storm, trans. R. Bly

Ooh, that's nice.  Except it has the effect on me of "that tiny insane
meaningless voluptuousness," since I realize five seconds after finishing an
office task just how pointless it usually is.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From mbales  Wed Feb 20 06:25:11 2002
From: mbales (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:25:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art Chronicles
In-Reply-To: <200202161639.g1GGd6q34239@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3C734147.31306.7C3802B@localhost>

David Graham:
> I enjoy Ashbery's art criticism.  Don't suppose it should have 
surprised
> me, but it sort of did:  he's a completely straightforward, lucid
> journalist. No "poetic" flights in his art crit that I've seen.  
 
I'm sure that for poetic flights
You're the man to know 'em --
But journalism's what he writes
In every Ashbery poem.



Marcus Bales
http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely



From dbarone  Wed Feb 20 08:35:27 2002
From: dbarone (dbarone)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:35:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry & work
Message-ID: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249008D2D2@sjcmail.sjc.edu>


Pascal D'Angelo came to the United States from Italy in 1910.  He was 16
years old.  He knew no English.  He worked as a ditch digger and railroad
repair man.  He taught himself English as 1920 approached.  He decided to
become a poet, writing in English.  In 1919 he moved from the New Jersey
shore of the Hudson (where he lived in an empty boxcar) into an abandoned
hovel in Brooklyn so that he could devote himself to writing poetry.  In
1922 he is "discovered" by his literary padrone, Carl Van Doren.  Some of
D'Angleo's poems were published in leading national magazines from 1922 to
1924.  In 1924 MacMillian published his autobiography, Son of Italy.  He
died, penniless, in 1932.  Although he didn't publish any poems after 1924,
at his death his main concern was his manuscript of unpublished poems.  His
autobiography went out of print, but will be republished late this year by
Guernica Editions.  Here is the end of a poem called "Night Scene."  

The form strolling on the solitary road
Begins to assume the size of a human being.
It may be some worker that returns from next town,
Where it has been earning its day's wages.
Slowly, tediously, it flags past me --
It is a tired man muttering angrily.
He mutters.
The blackness of his form now expands its hungry chaos
Spreading over half of heaven, like a storm,
Ready to swallow the moon, the puffing stacks, the wild
   foundry,
The very earth in its dark, furious maw,
The man mutters, shambling on --
The storm!  The storm!

D'Angelo said at the end of autobiography, "I am not deserting the legions
of toil to refuge myself in the literary world.  No!  No!  I only want to
express the wrath of their mistreatment.  No!  I seek no refuge!  I am a
worker, a pick and shovel man -- what I want is an outlet to express what I
can say besiders work.  Yes to express all the sorrows of those who cower
under the crushing yoke of an unjust doom."

Dennis Barone






From Thom424  Wed Feb 20 08:43:48 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:43:48 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Teaching/Work/School
Message-ID: <12a.c9137df.29a50214@aol.com>

Learning by Heart: Contemporary American Poetry about School. Eds. Maggie 
Anderson & David Hassler (Univ. Iowa Pr, 1999). 125+ 
school/teaching/learning-related poems.

Gratitude to Old teachers

When we stride or stroll across the frozen lake,
We place our feet where they have never been.
We walk upon the unwalked. But we are uneasy.
Who is down there but our old teachers?

Water that once could take no human weight?
We were students then?holds up our feet,
And goes on ahead of us for miles.
Beneath us the teachers, and around us the stillness.

        --Robert Bly



From JforJames  Wed Feb 20 09:30:47 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:30:47 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art Chronicles
Message-ID: <154.94ac70b.29a50d17@aol.com>

John Yau comes to mind in the art critic & poet category,
and then there is Jack Anderson, a poet who writes 
dance criticism...

Art without Boundaries 
The World of Modern Dance 
By Jack Anderson 
* Order * 
384 pp, 36 photos, 1997
$19.95 paper 0-87745-677-1 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--


?In Art without Boundaries Jack Anderson hails modern dance in its full 
boldness and clarity. With characteristic warmth, he also introduces us to 
many fascinating new personalities.??Doris Hering, senior editor, Dance 
Magazine

?[It is] impossible to mention here all the pioneer figures characterised so 
concisely and accurately by Anderson?each of them placed in relation to their 
social and political climate....[Anderson] is well-served by his formidable 
talent as a wordsmith; it would be hard put to name another writer who could, 
in so few precise and weighty words, sketch out the individual artistic 
physiognomies of Graham, Horst, Humphrey, Weidman, Cunningham, Nikolais, 
Lim?n, Shearer, Horton, Taylor, Rainer, Brown, Dean and Fenley?to mention 
just a few of the more prominent Americans.??Ballet International

?Anderson provides one of the most comprehensive dance history books in many 
years, one that draws extensively on the sociological underpinnings of dance 
and the personal passions of individuals. The beginning statement?'modern 
dance is an art as elusive as it is great'?sets the stage for an excellent 
discussion of some of the visionary (and, yes quirky) choreographers who 
devised movement for the genre. . . . Anderson deserves a big 
thank you for such an excellent, thought-provoking look at the world of 
dance.??Choice

?Anderson's account is well researched, but above all, it is lively and 
entertaining reading that will appeal to all dance enthusiasts.??Library 
Journal

?A sweeping panorama of modern dance that comes across with the same dynamism 
and urgency of purpose as the subject itself.??Publishers Weekly

Out of his long history as dance critic for the New York Times, Jack Anderson 
gives us this important, comprehensive history of one of the liveliest and 
most unpredictable of the arts. Treating modern dance as a self-renewing art, 
Anderson follows its changes over the decades and discusses the visionary 
choreographers who have devised new modes of movement.




From halvard  Wed Feb 20 09:40:14 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:40:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Elaine Erickson, "Insomniac"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECELEEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Insomniac

A man is lodged in my brain.
He talks and talks--an ant
moving in circles. He calls
my finest dream a burned-out
racehorse. He breathes
his black gas in my brain
and I pour sadness at his feet.
He pulls a shower curtain over his eyes
when I cry. If I tell him
I love him, he tells me I am one of many.
If I tell him I hate him, he's a curse.
I want to believe

in miracles. I like to think
I could lie with him in peace,
cotton candy stuffed in our mouths,
our words inching away
like quivering worms. 
But he's always there talking,
his words busy traffic climbing
cell upon cell, tumbling
blocks of thoughts, scattering, plundering
the landscape of my mind.

I will kill him.
I will smother him, his words squeaking out
like rubber pennies. Then I will turn over
in my bed and reach for the lamp,

switching it into darkness.


--Elaine Erickson


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From JforJames  Wed Feb 20 09:49:32 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:49:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sarah Arvio poem and Q&A
Message-ID: <16d.923e492.29a5117c@aol.com>

The solace this poem offered was imperfect...but in the interest 
of informing--
Date:   2/19/02 4:30:16 PM Eastern Standard Time
Reply-to:   knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com

Knopf Poetry News: February 2002
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

We are pleased to share with you a poem from the first collection of a
new addition to the Knopf poetry list, Sarah Arvio.  The poem is "How I
Yearn," followed by an excerpt from an interview with the poet.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How I Yearn

from VISITS FROM THE SEVENTH


I had been missing them very badly,
that day and that day and the next--and yet
the solace they offered was imperfect,

airborne and volatile. I invoked them,
yes, often, in lieu of human contact.
Not that they weren't human, just abstracted

form humanness on the physical plane.
But why had they deserted me? I knew
the answer: for spurning them out of hand.

But where, in that case, did they swirl off to?
Did they rise higher, higher, and vanish
into some upper ether or did they

betrayingly visit someone else who
might at that moment seem more receptive?
Calling them back after a desertion

was never simple: I had to turn my mood
soft, bright, calm and dreamily attentive;
then, after a time, they would slip back in,

one by one, refiguring their spirals
in those inevitable rows of seven.
Would they, I once found the courage to ask,

weave together and net the air for me,
linking and looping their remembered limbs,
to break softly my falling if I fell?

Cradle me, oh cradle me, I whispered.
That was not a service they could do, though.
Life is so complicated for us here,

so troublesome, really, that I wondered
how they found theirs. Did they love it up there
cutting their spirals into cold fronts and

turning somersaults with the storms? Did they
nestle cozy into their troughs of air,
basking in the serene and glossy heights,

the breathtaking vistas of blue-gray seas,
the pink-tinted cloudscapes, the high music--
Or did they, as we do, long for blankets

and warm bodies? So I broached the question
when they came soft-shoeing back this time.
"No memory, no thought," one lipped to me,

"can stand in for the loss of a life of touch."
Amen, I said, and that's the life I want.
So I brushed the air to be rid of them.

Read more poems by Sarah Arvio and learn about her new book, VISITS FROM
THE SEVENTH:
http://www.aaknopf.com/authors/arvio/poem.html

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



From halvard  Wed Feb 20 10:00:25 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:00:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art Chronicles
In-Reply-To: <154.94ac70b.29a50d17@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECELGEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Don't forget Peter Schjedahl and John Perreault. Also,
Ted Berrigan once reviewed for ArtNews. Or have
these been mentioned.

Hal             Minimum 30% post-consumer material

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


   
{    John Yau comes to mind in the art critic & poet category,
{    and then there is Jack Anderson, a poet who writes 
{    dance criticism...
{    
{    Art without Boundaries 
{    The World of Modern Dance 
{    By Jack Anderson 
{    * Order * 
{    384 pp, 36 photos, 1997
{    $19.95 paper 0-87745-677-1 
{    
{    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
{    
{    --
{    
{    
{    ?In Art without Boundaries Jack Anderson hails modern dance in its full 
{    boldness and clarity. With characteristic warmth, he also introduces us to 
{    many fascinating new personalities.??Doris Hering, senior editor, Dance 
{    Magazine
{    
{    ?[It is] impossible to mention here all the pioneer figures characterised so 
{    concisely and accurately by Anderson?each of them placed in relation to their 
{    social and political climate....[Anderson] is well-served by his formidable 
{    talent as a wordsmith; it would be hard put to name another writer who could, 
{    in so few precise and weighty words, sketch out the individual artistic 
{    physiognomies of Graham, Horst, Humphrey, Weidman, Cunningham, Nikolais, 
{    Lim?n, Shearer, Horton, Taylor, Rainer, Brown, Dean and Fenley?to mention 
{    just a few of the more prominent Americans.??Ballet International
{    
{    ?Anderson provides one of the most comprehensive dance history books in many 
{    years, one that draws extensively on the sociological underpinnings of dance 
{    and the personal passions of individuals. The beginning statement?'modern 
{    dance is an art as elusive as it is great'?sets the stage for an excellent 
{    discussion of some of the visionary (and, yes quirky) choreographers who 
{    devised movement for the genre. . . . Anderson deserves a big 
{    thank you for such an excellent, thought-provoking look at the world of 
{    dance.??Choice
{    
{    ?Anderson's account is well researched, but above all, it is lively and 
{    entertaining reading that will appeal to all dance enthusiasts.??Library 
{    Journal
{    
{    ?A sweeping panorama of modern dance that comes across with the same dynamism 
{    and urgency of purpose as the subject itself.??Publishers Weekly
{    
{    Out of his long history as dance critic for the New York Times, Jack Anderson 
{    gives us this important, comprehensive history of one of the liveliest and 
{    most unpredictable of the arts. Treating modern dance as a self-renewing art, 
{    Anderson follows its changes over the decades and discusses the visionary 
{    choreographers who have devised new modes of movement.
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    




From paul.lake  Wed Feb 20 10:54:50 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:54:50 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <3C7334C6.D0643B03@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B89922EA.2778%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/19/02 11:32 PM, odysseus34 at odysseus34 at earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> 
> David Graham wrote:
> 
>> Thinking of Stevens's fabled dislocation between day job and poetry--has
>> anyone mentioned William Carlos Williams in this thread?
>> 
>> Seems to me that WCW is a poet whose paying occupation was integral with his
>> poetry, and perhaps even his poetics.   Don't know what, if anything, this
>> might mean, for I'm not sure I could develop the point very convincingly.
>> Just an intuition.
> 
> I'm reminded of Natalie Goldberg's characterizing some of WCW's poems as
> "prescription-pad-sized poems" in "Writing Down the Bones" (this was a
> compliment on her part).  She visualizes WCW as writing poetry in between
> patients in his office.  I don't know how true to life that is, though.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
Williams did work on poems between patients in his office--but on a
typewriter.

Paul Lake




From halvard  Wed Feb 20 11:02:43 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:02:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <B89922EA.2778%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKELKEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    Williams did work on poems between patients in his office--but on a
{    typewriter.
{    
{    Paul Lake

Or was it patients between poems?

Hal            Visit Our Other Location

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From Robtberner  Wed Feb 20 11:23:10 2002
From: Robtberner (Robtberner at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:23:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: schedule
Message-ID: <66.1c55d2fb.29a5276e@aol.com>

   tad--mike is scheduled only to give the keynote address for the sat. 
morning session. talk is supposed to run from 9--9:45 am. there's supposed to 
be a sat afternoon session with baraka, tracie morris, and two others. all ot 
this is within the context of a celebration of langston hughes. whole 
schedule is available at yale's afam studies dept website.
   did you catch the pbs show on ralph ellison last night? it was good. 
people dumped on him and called him an uncle tom--he didn't deserve any of 
that.
   so...you're still coming down for mike's address? let me know.
   
   love and la bamba,

              bob



From daisyf1  Wed Feb 20 11:36:33 2002
From: daisyf1 (Daisy Fried)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:36:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] work, bitterness and poetry
Message-ID: <20020220.113634.-261163.0.daisyf1@juno.com>

Hi Moira--can I defend Janet a little here (in a random and disorganized
way)? 

You say things like "Is it so hard to believe that other peoplemight like
to trade anecdotes about what it's like to try to balance work and
poetry." You also reject jobs like teacher, bookstore manager, translator
and editor as irrelevant to the kind of work you're interested in as a
subject for poetry and for anecdotal discussion on the list. Yet you
continue to use the term "work" in a general sense ("what it's like to
balance work and poetry")--having also, if I remember correctly [if I
don't I trust you'll correct me] having rejected physical labor as
relevant to your office work experience. It seems like a
not-entirely-straw-opposition to me. 

Okay, I accept that you want to read poems about office work [and assume
you write poems about this--won't you post a couple?]--we all want to
read things that are relevant to our experience--and for you, if I'm
reading you right, that means specifically non-professional prole office
work where the speaker's the employee without much power and a lot of
aggravation. I haven't read a lot of poems in that vein which I've liked
either and would like to read more. [By the way Bob Edwards, former
editor of the leftie journal Pemmican, has a number of good poems on the
subject if you can track down his books or editions of Pemmican, which
he's no longer putting out. Also, I agree: in my experience office work
can be utterly creepy and alienating from the things one values in life.
Like books and words.]

But it does seem to me too that, again, yes, you're setting up
oppositions between the specific experience you're interested in reading
about and all other work experience. I mean, to grossly oversimply, the
conversation seemed to go like this:

you: Merwin was rich.
someone else: Merwin wasn't rich, he had to work hard at translation.
you: translation work, big deal. I'd love to make money that way. [so can
I assume you're working on sending out translations of poems for
publication with an eye to eventually making money at that?]
you also said: Molly Peacock's memoir was great except for the fact that
revealed she had lots of money. Kind of an odd statement to me. [Maybe
you were thinking about the fact that it's easy to be clear about whether
or not you want to have kids if you have enough money, whereas if you
don't have a lot of money the question becomes more 'can I have kids' and
'not do I want them'? But you didn't say this...]
you also: seemed to reject Deborah Garrison's poems not on their own
merits but on the fact that she was successful and well-promoted. Have
you tried to get a job at the NYer so you can make the same kind of
connections she did? There are a lot of jobs there that a person with a
graduate degree like yourself might have a good shot at getting--I mean
you'd probably have to live in Hoboken or something in a tiny apartment
to survive on the salary, but it's one thing you could do. (Yeah, I know,
I wouldn't want to go that path either! but if I reject that path, I
figure I should do my best not to resent those who choose it. I'm not
saying you resent anybody; it's just in the hard-to-control
world-of-e-mail-tone it kinda sounded like you were; god only knows what
I'm sounding like right now...)

And yes, you did say quite emphatically that professors seemed
"overworked, underpaid, underinsured, went to far too many meetings, and
either had to go on sabbaticals or quit their jobs to concentrate on
their own writing..." [I'd add that yeah, in many or most cases, they
surely do have a difficult time; of course others seem like they're
sitting quite pretty] But you do set up an opposition--not necessarily a
pejorative one, but an opposition nonetheless--when you say "it was a job
that would allow you to stay in some contact with the world of ideas and
writing." I'm not saying that's an incorrect statement. But coupled with
some of your other rather bitter-seeming comments [and I don't say your
bitterness, if there is in fact bitterness there, isn't justified--or
that it is] it seems easy to read into your statements that  you needed
writers to conform to specific job, salary and (lack of?) success
requirements for you to be interested in their poems. Of course, you
don't have to be interested in anything but what you're interested in! 

But if I were in Janet's position, I might also feel like there were some
aspersions being cast on--or at least some misunderstanding of--the hard
work she'd done and continued to do to get to and maintain the position
they have.  

In the interests of full-disclosure and since I fear my tone is more
chiding than I want it to be: I have, myself, nothign to complain of. I
currently pay the bills by means of a large grant for my poetry that I
got from a local foundation that supports women artists. This grant comes
on the heels of another large grant, from another foundation that also
supports local artists. I fill in the gaps with occasional freelance
journalism and for the last four years I have taught a single class in
creative writing per year at a prestigious undergraduate college, a
position I got without benefit of even a master's degree (which I've
never gotten and suspect I never will) because someone who knows me and
likes my poetry recommended me. I can say that this teaching job has
definitely *not* connected me more with the world of ideas and writing.
In fact teaching seems like a polar opposite to writing, and weirdly
even, sometimes to ideas. I don't have medical insurance and I tend to
have gaps in my life where I am alarmed about my financial situation [I
have no idea where my next dollar will come from when my dough from the
grant runs out this June] but I prefer moments of alarm and insecurity to
working an office job. I also live in a city (Philadelphia) where it's
not impossible to live on a relatively little bit of money. (For example,
thanks to a city low-income program, I was able to buy a house a couple
years ago with a very small down payment and fair interest rate.) Anyhow,
I have absolutely nothing to complain about so maybe it is easy for me to
make statements like I've been making in this e-mail. Anyhow, my advice
to other poets generally boils down to: Move to Philly! 

Finally, and after this, I'll try not to be so long-winded, I have a poem
in my book _She Didn't Mean to Do It_ called "Electric Slide" which comes
out of a really quite horrible office job I held temporarily in my early
20s, which might interest you. But on the other hand it might not. It
might not really relate to your experience as I only held the job for a
few months before quitting. (I had office jobs before and after that, but
that's the only one I've managed to get into a poem so far...)

Best,
Daisy Fried


 



From wasanthony  Wed Feb 20 13:08:03 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:08:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <B89922EA.2778%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <20020220180803.66692.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:
> on 2/19/02 11:32 PM, odysseus34 at odysseus34 at earthlink.net wrote:
> 
> Williams did work on poems between patients in his office--but on a
> typewriter.

True.  If you can squeeze your hand between those blue paper robes
you'll find a poem.  What I'm curious about, however, is how he got two
patients to sit on his typewriter.

- Jim, practicing good bedside manners




=====
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>

Readings: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/readings.html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From JforJames  Wed Feb 20 14:32:13 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:32:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] teacher poems
Message-ID: <a3.2400130f.29a553bd@aol.com>

The performance poet Taylor Mali has got a couple
teacher related poems at this site
http://www.taylormali.com/products.cfm
I understand he's signed a contract to do a TV pilot
based on his life as a teacher....

Objection overruled, or You can always go to law school if things don't work 
out 

He says the problem with teachers is, ?What's a kid going to learn
from someone who decided his best option in life was to become a teacher??
He reminds the other dinner guests that it's true what they say about 
teachers: 
Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.

I decide to bite my tongue instead of his
and resist the temptation to remind the dinner guests
that it's also true what they say about lawyers.

Because we're eating, after all, and this is polite company.

?I mean, you're a teacher, Taylor,? he says.
?Be honest. What do you make??

And I wish he hadn't done that
(asked me to be honest)
because, you see, I have a policy 
about honesty and ass-kicking:
if you ask for it, I have to let you have it.

You want to know what I make?

I make kids work harder than they ever thought they could.
I can make a C+ feel like a Congressional medal of honor
and an A- feel like a slap in the face.
How dare you waste my time with anything less than your very best.

I make kids sit through 40 minutes of study hall
in absolute silence. No, you may not work in groups.
No, you may not ask a question. 
Why won't I let you get a drink of water?
Because you're not thirsty, you're bored, that's why.

I make parents tremble in fear when I call home:
I hope I haven't called at a bad time, 
I just wanted to talk to you about something Billy said today.
Billy said, ?Leave the kid alone. I still cry sometimes, don't you??
And it was the noblest act of courage I have ever seen.

I make parents see their children for who they are
and what they can be.

You want to know what I make?

I make kids wonder,
I make them question.
I make them criticize.
I make them apologize and mean it.
I make them write.
I make them read, read, read.
I make them spell definitely beautiful, definitely beautiful, definitely 
beautiful 
over and over and over again until they will never misspell 
either one of those words again.
I make them show all their work in math.
And hide it on their final drafts in English.
I make them understand that if you got this (brains)
then you follow this (heart) and if someone ever tries to judge you
by what you make, you give them this (the finger).

Let me break it down for you, so you know what I say is true:
I make a goddamn difference! What about you?






From jdavis  Wed Feb 20 16:13:23 2002
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:13:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arvio / Levin / B Lucas - angel-swarms
In-Reply-To: <16d.923e492.29a5117c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202201609160.19807-100000@panix2.panix.com>

Dana Levin's In the Surgical Theater and Brian Lucas' The Trustees in
Spite of Themselves share this motif of angel infestation.  What's that
about?  Some kind of emergent American anxiety?  Well I'm all for
symptoms, and terza rima too.

Jordan Davis

> >From a Q&A with Sarah Arvio:
>
> Q: Who are the visitors that speak to you throughout these poems?
> We get various images of them, for example, when they say "we wear
> no form or figure of our own ... to tell us from the motions of the air...
> we'd love to live even in a bubble"-and in another place, they come to
> you in their "inevitable rows of seven." Do you see them as departed
> souls, or not that ghostlike?
>
> A: They're visitors; I hear words and pick up a pen; they inhabit my
> hand when I write. They inhabit my hand when they're speaking; at
> other times, I inhabit my hand. The difference is distinct. I don't know
> what they are; they're disembodied; they may be spirits, if anyone can
> know what a spirit is.
>
> Q: Are the voices, in a way, a metaphor for your poetic process?
>
> A: Auden has an ironic line: "All the literati keep an imaginary friend."
> The visitors may be my notion: a projection of my wish to hear them.
> But I've often been astonished by what they've said to me, and can't
> imagine saying what they've said. Their memory is stronger than
> mine, and their associative powers are stranger and more vivid. After
> a while, the debate emerged in one of my poems: "Three Green
> Stars." The final line is, "Matter or not, it's all material." Meaning
> that it doesn't matter what the source is: anything is material for art. It
> doesn't matter whether it's my notion or a notion accepted from some
> undefinable elsewhere.
>
> Read more of the Q&A with Sarah Arvio:
> http://www.aaknopf.com/authors/arvio/qna.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From tadrichards  Wed Feb 20 21:26:18 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:26:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: schedule
References: <66.1c55d2fb.29a5276e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c1ba7f$25ddf280$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Yeah...I'd like to hear Mike. Let's figure on doing that.


Tad



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: <Robtberner at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:23 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: schedule


>    tad--mike is scheduled only to give the keynote address for the sat.
> morning session. talk is supposed to run from 9--9:45 am. there's supposed
to
> be a sat afternoon session with baraka, tracie morris, and two others. all
ot
> this is within the context of a celebration of langston hughes. whole
> schedule is available at yale's afam studies dept website.
>    did you catch the pbs show on ralph ellison last night? it was good.
> people dumped on him and called him an uncle tom--he didn't deserve any of
> that.
>    so...you're still coming down for mike's address? let me know.
>
>    love and la bamba,
>
>               bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Thu Feb 21 09:24:16 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:24:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arvio / Levin / B Lucas - angel-swarms
Message-ID: <184.3f67530.29a65d10@aol.com>

jdavis at panix.com writes:
> Dana Levin's In the Surgical Theater and Brian Lucas' The Trustees in
>  Spite of Themselves share this motif of angel infestation.  What's that
>  about?  Some kind of emergent American anxiety?  Well I'm all for
>  symptoms, and terza rima too.
>  
Jordan, it must be part of the zeitgeist...it seems like every other film
or TV show has some kind of supernatural element or alien being as
part of the storyline. Possibly this is a manifestation of our ever-enveloping
human narcissism...as if, shall we say,"entities," capable of crossing back 
& forth between dimensions of time and space, or technologically
advanced enuf to tear-ass from one end of the known universe to another 
are oh so very interested in a self-immolating planet and the personal
travails of its motley cast of characters.
That being said, I not calling for an outright ban in the estate of poetry
against the occasional intrusion by an angel or a (demi)god.
Finnegan 



From JforJames  Thu Feb 21 09:49:50 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:49:50 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA in the academy
Message-ID: <f3.16b71eae.29a6630e@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/18/02 7:53:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, Cadaly at aol.com 
writes:
> There are several reasons the relationships between working and English 
> literature and writing things other than poetry are very very important, 
and 
> one of them is the current position of the MFA in the academy and the way 
the 
> programs are structured.
>  
>  Many, though not all, programs use the "no teaching jobs are available" "
> Walllace Stevens" "you're all adults with professions doing this for fun" 
> positions to do absolutely nothing as far as jobs/guidance counselling for 
> students, and offer no coursework that would actually lead to jobs, such as 
> preparation for the style manual exams, creation of portfolios and samples 
> for writing or media jobs, etc.
>  
>  Several new MFA and Creative dissertation PhD programs take this farther:  
> since you will not ever be teaching poetry, as part of your admissions 
essay, 
> write why you want to have a career teaching comp / rhet; or since you will 
> not be teaching, no teaching fellowships are available to you, etc.
>  
>  Academic work during the MFA is often discouraged.  To me, ten years ago, 
> this was always presented as the Sylvia Plath in Chemistry class model, 
where 
> even as a student in the sciences, she just used to time to be inspired and 
> use the foreignness of the vocabulary and concepts as inspiration.  Thus, "
> you can take outside courses, but not for a grade."
>  
>  Additionally, in the PhD programs in literature, creative writing and 
> publication as a hobby is encouraged; now, when there is only a course or 
two 
> in creative writing available to teach, a PhD with a few stories published 
> will be preferred to an MFA with more extensive publication.  Carrying that 
> even further, UCLA, which does not offer creative writing on the graduate 
> level, and has little funding available until C. Phil, encourages graduate 
> students to assemble creative work to apply for NEA funding <so that they 
may 
> use this funding to pay for their tuition and expenses rather than to use 
it 
> to complete art works>.
>  
Catherine, I'm late picking up this thread: I've noticed 
in pages of the trade journals, like AWPChronicle and 
Poets & Writers, in last year or so that more new MFA 
Creative Writing programs are springing up...esp., those 
of the low-residency variety. So the demand must still 
be there despite the dire employment prospects; and the 
low-residency angle certainly must encourage the 
enrollment of those committed to other jobs or contrained 
by other life demands that prevent them from pursuing 
the degree as resident students.
So, the question is what kind of "hunger" is feeding 
this phenomenon? And has there been a similar 
expansion in MFA degree programs of music and the 
visual arts?....or is it somehow unique to the practice 
of writing?
Finnegan



From daisyf1  Thu Feb 21 10:57:05 2002
From: daisyf1 (Daisy Fried)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:57:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arvio/Levin/B.Lucas--Angel Swarms
Message-ID: <20020221.105706.-463299.4.daisyf1@juno.com>

Yeats' spirits, which he channeled through his wife, apparently told him
how better to please his wife sexually, including giving him tips on oral
sex. Now those are some cool angels! 
Daisy



From paul.lake  Thu Feb 21 11:55:22 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:55:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arvio/Levin/B.Lucas--Angel Swarms
In-Reply-To: <20020221.105706.-463299.4.daisyf1@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B89A829A.2793%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/21/02 9:57 AM, Daisy Fried at daisyf1 at juno.com wrote:

> Yeats' spirits, which he channeled through his wife, apparently told him
> how better to please his wife sexually, including giving him tips on oral
> sex. Now those are some cool angels!
> Daisy
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Daisy, thanks for the info.  Mrs. Yeats was no dummy: Fake trances so she
didn't have to fake orgasms.  It's hard to tell who was the greater genius
in the Yeats household.

Paul Lake




From sholman  Thu Feb 21 12:27:09 2002
From: sholman (Shannon Holman)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:27:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
Message-ID: <B89A980E.FA42%sholman@mac.com>

As part of my thesis project for The New School's MFA program, I'm
assembling a small anthology of centos ("patchwork poems" in which every
line is taken from another poem).

Please help me by sending your own centos (note source texts, please) or by
dropping me a note about the cento as a form (i.e., favorite practioners,
its place in the contemporary poetry landscape).

You'll receive nothing but my thanks, a mild service-to-your-fellow-poet
high and, if you want, a copy of the final paper.

Please email sholman at mac.com directly with your questions and/or
submissions.  I'm hoping to finish the research phase of this project by
mid-March.


Thanks,

Shannon


-- 
Shannon Holman
work: 212.545.6089
home: 718.638.1239
sholman at mac.com
--
http://www.onemississippi.com




From gmcvay  Thu Feb 21 15:44:44 2002
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:44:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA in the academy
In-Reply-To: <f3.16b71eae.29a6630e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202211543330.32383-100000@adams.patriot.net>

Finnegan, having obtained my incredibly useful MFA and staggering debt
therefrom, my question now is--where's the low-residency PhD?

Gwyn (really hoping for a low-residency first at Oxford)

---
"We share half our genome with the banana. This is more evident in some of my
acquaintances than others."
Sir Robert May, President of the Royal Society of London





From Cadaly  Thu Feb 21 16:33:31 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:33:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] work, bitterness and poetry
Message-ID: <185.3f7dabf.29a6c1ac@aol.com>

"Electric Slide" is quite wonderful.

I've written more nonfiction with work-related "content" although my poetry is about 15 years behind my experience:  it takes that long to filter through in a meaningful way.  I did start working when I was 12.  I'm still writing about waitressing.  OK, make that 23 years behind.

I'm repeating myself by stressing that if what you're looking for isn't there, you're looking incorrectly; Kit Robinson's poems about blank, faceless business travel hotels in DEMOCRACY BOULEVARD (title taken from the name of the ersatz streets they seem to be on), etc.  Remember the manufacturing depression going on for about ten years now?  Remember the disappearance of the middle class?  Who's working in a factory?  Who's working in an office building?

A panel I was trying to assemble but that didn't go had Bin Ramke (science writing/editing), myself (I have actually worked in a factory), Jeanne Beaumont (medical writing), I was going to speak about John Ashbery and others and their tech writing rhetorics.

In the recent AWP Job list, 25 jobs required PhDs, and 12 preferred PhDs.  MFA programs "prefer" PhDs.  Recent hires on tenure-track reporting in are about 80% PhD and 80% minority.  The rise of the creative writing PhD is the death of the MFA, or is forcing the MFA into a "recreational" degree.  It will remain, I think, less of a "fine arts" degree than theatre or painting because there is so much craft involved.

At last year's AWP, one jobs panellist had taken a 25% ish pay cut to teach creatve writing rather than teach tech writing; her end salary was about 25% of what a tenured professor at a major school can expect.  Even at the CC level, where MA/MFA tenure is possible, it is typical for 8 or more English classes per school to be filled with adjuncts every term.  That's two (fairly secure) positions at $16K/year instead of a living wage.

I am going to a conference tomorrow called "Monster and Critic."  As a poet, I am the "Monster."  This version of the poetry wars is poets who embrace critical theory vs. poets with a romantic vision.  Though Stein, Stevens, etc., had essentially neo-romantic visions thru Wm. James.

The increasingly recreational, and "romantic," MFA, then, would seem to continue the idea of some old french guys that poets and poetry are "subjects" and sorta dead, like Latin, or Detroit, or lower Manhattan.

Be well,
Catherine "Always the Bride, Never the Monster" Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net



From poets  Thu Feb 21 17:46:10 2002
From: poets (poets at wiredonwords.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:46:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Voix d'Ameriques Spoken Word Festival
Message-ID: <3C753262.28757.6982A@localhost>

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Voices of the Americas Festival

-spoken word in all its guises

February 26th - March 3rd, 2002

We are happy to announce the inauguration of Le 
Festival Voix d'Ameriques / Voices of the Americas 
Festival (FVA), a new bilingual festival dedicated 
entirely to oral literature.

The FVA 2002 will happen over a six-day period, from 
Tuesday, February 26th until Sunday, March 3rd, in 
Montreal, Canada. 

Four types of activities will be held for this first 
edition of the festival.  Nightly from February 26 to 
March 3 starting at 8 pm there will be 6 cabarets, 
each evening highlighting three different 
themes/styles of literature in performance, uniting 54 
artists: storytelling, theatre, poetry, spoken word, 
multimedia, monologues, first nations, emerging 
artists and more...

In the late afternoon (5 to 7 pm) on February 27 and 
28 and March 1 and 2: four 'new discoveries' open mic 
spaces will feature readings, storytelling, spoken 
word and slam poetry.

In the afternoon on February 27 and 28 and March 1 and 
2: four round table discussions:  - The relationship 
between music and spoken word when the two are  
combined; - a meeting with Carole Boucher from the 
Canada Council  for the Arts (Spoken and Electronic 
Words section);  - the role of new technologies in the 
production of oral  literature; and - the current 
renaissance in the practice of  storytelling. 

Finally, on the morning of March 2 there will be a 
voice technique workshop.

The FVA will take place in three well-known venues 
within a block of each other on St-Laurent Boulevard 
in Montreal:

* The launch of the event will be held at the Sergent 
Recruteur (location of the now legendary weekly 
Dimanches du conte): 4650 St-Laurent, (514) 287-1412

* Nightly cabarets will be presented at the Sala 
Rossa: 4848 St-Laurent at 8PM.

* The 5-7 PM open mike events will be held at the 
Sergent Recruteur: 4650 St-Laurent, (514) 287-1412

* The Round Table discussions will take place from 
2:30 - 4:30 at the Casa del Popolo (swiftly becoming a 
cornerstone of underground music and cultural 
happenings in English Montreal): 4873 St-Laurent, 
(514) 284-3804. 

Boulevard St. Laurent was chosen as it is an important 
location in the history of literature and the culture 
of Montreal. The long-standing symbolic 'divide' 
between Francophone and Anglophone cultures, the 
street is also a contemporary melting pot and meeting 
place for a multitude of languages and cultural 
heritages.

For more info on the FVA, please contact Ian Ferrier 
at 514-849-2353

* * *

Background

The FVA is presented by Productions si on r?vait 
encore, a non-profit organization whose mandate is to 
promote oral literature (l'oralit?) and all the unique 
forms that have emerged from spoken word's 
interdisciplinary nature.
This new production company, its mission and the 
introduction of this new festival are a result of the 
efforts of Andr? Lemelin, an artist, organizer and 
producer of cultural events who continues celebrating 
the written and spoken word (Stop magazine, Lectures 
journal, Exit poetry magazine, Dimanches du conte 
storytelling night, Plan?te rebelle press). 

During the last decade, artists working with the word 
have become more numerous, visible and present among 
the various Montreal arts scenes (in previous years,  
at Foufounes electrique, Isart, Bistro 4, cafe 
Phoenix; more  recently at Jailhouse, Casa Del Popolo 
and Sala Rossa).  However, they continue to be 
relatively isolated from each  other, with no one 
venue or event bringing them together in  a coherent 
collective. The Voices of the Americas festival  will 
attempt to present the entire range of spoken word in  
Qu?bec as well as giving its practitioners a chance to 
come  together, witness each others' creations and 
engage in creative exchanges.

The FVA plans to produce an annual event revolving 
around the 'spoken' word. It will showcase artists' 
existing performance works and invite them to present 
new works for the festival.

At the helm of the FVA is Andr? Lemelin, general 
director of the festival and director of artistic 
programming.

His support crew of artistic advisors includes Jean-
Marc Massie (storytelling - host of Dimanches du 
conte); Pierre Thibeault (First Nations artists - an 
organizer of the Presences autochtones Festival); 
Sonia Pelletier (performance artists, South American 
artists - curator); D.Kimm (theatre artists, poets - 
writer); and Yannick B. Gelinas (multimedia artists - 
visual artist)

For the artistic direction of Anglophone programming, 
Lemelin has enlisted Ian Ferrier (poet and musician) 
and Victoria Stanton (performance artist and co-author 
of Impure: Reinventing the word) as well as Mike Burns 
(Montreal Intercultural Storytelling Festival - 
storyteller) and Estelle Rosen (Theatre events 
organizer). 

MarieLyne Durocher is assistant director / director of 
communications, while Denis Bigras (Festival des Films 
du Monde) is the production director.

Productions si on r?vait encore
5644 Bordeaux
Montr?al, Quebec
H2G 2R3
Canada
Phone	(514) 276-1278
English language events 514-849-2353
Fax	(514) 273-7918	

- 30 -
from the Words&Music label
Wired on Words
http://wiredonwords.com





From FaeryPoet9  Thu Feb 21 18:33:23 2002
From: FaeryPoet9 (FaeryPoet9 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:33:23 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
Message-ID: <cd.13810ff4.29a6ddc3@aol.com>

Could anyone here point me to some information on contemporary Scottish 
poets, particularly women, but anyone rather interesting.  Thank you!
~shahara in wi usa




From chryss  Thu Feb 21 18:41:42 2002
From: chryss (Chryss Yost)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:41:42 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
Message-ID: <20020221234300.80B31145AE4@beach.silcom.com>

There's a wonderful Scottish-American journal, The Dark Horse, which would
be a good place to start. . . .
----------
>From: FaeryPoet9 at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
>Date: Thu, Feb 21, 2002, 3:33 PM
>

>Could anyone here point me to some information on contemporary Scottish 
>poets, particularly women, but anyone rather interesting.  Thank you!
>~shahara in wi usa
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From robin.hamilton2  Thu Feb 21 19:02:32 2002
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:02:32 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
References: <20020221234300.80B31145AE4@beach.silcom.com>
Message-ID: <004201c1bb34$5a212660$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>

From: "Chryss Yost" <chryss at silcom.com>

> There's a wonderful Scottish-American journal, The Dark Horse, which would
> be a good place to start. . . .

If it's the same one I'm thinking of, it died the death a year or so ago,
I'm afraid.

The best two magazines currently [well, about the oldest still around] are
_Chapman_ and _Acumen_, both edited by women (though they don't restrict
themselves to women's poetry!).  _Chapman_ would be the one I'd recommend.

Of the older writers (in their fifties) Liz Lochead's work is worth looking
at.

Robin Hamilton

> ----------
> >From: FaeryPoet9 at aol.com
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
> >Date: Thu, Feb 21, 2002, 3:33 PM
> >
>
> >Could anyone here point me to some information on contemporary Scottish
> >poets, particularly women, but anyone rather interesting.  Thank you!
> >~shahara in wi usa
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From chryss  Thu Feb 21 19:07:09 2002
From: chryss (Chryss Yost)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:07:09 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
Message-ID: <20020222000926.B2E5814540C@beach.silcom.com>

The Dark Horse is alive and well. There was an American journal that tried
to use the same name, and they have since gone under or changed names, but
the Scottish American Dark Horse is going strong.

----------
>From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
>Date: Thu, Feb 21, 2002, 4:02 PM
>

>From: "Chryss Yost" <chryss at silcom.com>
>
>> There's a wonderful Scottish-American journal, The Dark Horse, which
would
>> be a good place to start. . . .
>
>If it's the same one I'm thinking of, it died the death a year or so ago,
>I'm afraid.
>
>The best two magazines currently [well, about the oldest still around] are
>_Chapman_ and _Acumen_, both edited by women (though they don't restrict
>themselves to women's poetry!).  _Chapman_ would be the one I'd recommend.
>
>Of the older writers (in their fifties) Liz Lochead's work is worth looking
>at.
>
>Robin Hamilton
>
>> ----------
>> >From: FaeryPoet9 at aol.com
>> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
>> >Date: Thu, Feb 21, 2002, 3:33 PM
>> >
>>
>> >Could anyone here point me to some information on contemporary Scottish
>> >poets, particularly women, but anyone rather interesting.  Thank you!
>> >~shahara in wi usa
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >New-Poetry mailing list
>> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From robin.hamilton2  Thu Feb 21 19:31:45 2002
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:31:45 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
References: <20020222000926.B2E5814540C@beach.silcom.com>
Message-ID: <005201c1bb38$f2ef0d40$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>

Edited by Jennifer Goodrich in the States (and Gerry Cambridge in
Kilmarnock)?  The same one?

I was sure it had folded -- I'll have to reactivate my subscription!!

Robin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chryss Yost" <chryss at silcom.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets


> The Dark Horse is alive and well. There was an American journal that tried
> to use the same name, and they have since gone under or changed names, but
> the Scottish American Dark Horse is going strong.
>
> ----------
> >From: "Robin Hamilton" <robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
> >Date: Thu, Feb 21, 2002, 4:02 PM
> >
>
> >From: "Chryss Yost" <chryss at silcom.com>
> >
> >> There's a wonderful Scottish-American journal, The Dark Horse, which
> would
> >> be a good place to start. . . .
> >
> >If it's the same one I'm thinking of, it died the death a year or so ago,
> >I'm afraid.
> >
> >The best two magazines currently [well, about the oldest still around]
are
> >_Chapman_ and _Acumen_, both edited by women (though they don't restrict
> >themselves to women's poetry!).  _Chapman_ would be the one I'd
recommend.
> >
> >Of the older writers (in their fifties) Liz Lochead's work is worth
looking
> >at.
> >
> >Robin Hamilton
> >
> >> ----------
> >> >From: FaeryPoet9 at aol.com
> >> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> >Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
> >> >Date: Thu, Feb 21, 2002, 3:33 PM
> >> >
> >>
> >> >Could anyone here point me to some information on contemporary
Scottish
> >> >poets, particularly women, but anyone rather interesting.  Thank you!
> >> >~shahara in wi usa
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From wasanthony  Thu Feb 21 20:34:55 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:34:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
In-Reply-To: <cd.13810ff4.29a6ddc3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020222013455.69384.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com>

Some folks have given you good tips, but you can broaden your search by
starting at Scottish Poetry Library <http://www.spl.org.uk/> and
Scottish Contemporary Poetry Series
<http://www.scottishbooks.com/Cultsite/contempoet.htm>

Then there's Paula Gunn Allen, of
Pueblo/Sioux/Lebanese/Scottish-American ancestry, and meself, of
Spanish/Basque/Scot/unknown-indigenous-south-of-the-border-peoples. 
Unless, of course, you're looking for those of "pure" ancestry.

I lived outside of Edinburgh for a year back in 1967, but that's
ancient history and the names of the writers I met there vanished with
discarded brain cells.

- Jim


--- FaeryPoet9 at aol.com wrote:
> Could anyone here point me to some information on contemporary
> Scottish 
> poets, particularly women, but anyone rather interesting.  Thank you!
> ~shahara in wi usa
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>

Readings: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/readings.html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From mbales  Fri Feb 22 00:09:37 2002
From: mbales (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 00:09:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
In-Reply-To: <20020222013455.69384.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <cd.13810ff4.29a6ddc3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C758C41.17294.10B8B7DC@localhost>

An Englishman is being shown around a Scottish hospital. At the end of  
his visit, he is shown into a ward with a number of patients who show no 
obvious signs of injury. He goes to examine the first man he sees, and 
the man proclaims: 

"Fair fa' yer sonsie face, 
Great chieftain e' the puddin' race!
Aboon them a' ye tak your place,
Painch tripe or thairm: 
Weel are ye wordy o' a grace 
As lang's my arm."

The Englishman, somewhat taken aback, goes to the next patient, who 
immediately launches into: 

"Some hae meat, and canna eat, and some wad eat that want it,
But we hae meat and we can eat, 
And sae the Lord be thankit."

And suddenly the next patient sits up and declaims. 

"Wee sleekit cow'rin tim'rous beastie, 
O what a panic's in thy breastie! 
Thou need na start awa sae hasty, 
wi' bickering brattle 
I wad be laith to run and chase thee,
wi' murdering prattle!"

"Well," said the Englishman to his Scottish colleague, "I see you saved 
the psychiatric ward for the last."
"Nay, nay," the Scottish doctor corrected him, "This is the Serious Burns 
Unit."

Marcus Bales
http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely



From odysseus34  Fri Feb 22 00:12:26 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:12:26 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Teaching/Work/School
References: <12a.c9137df.29a50214@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C75D337.1EA47772@earthlink.net>

> When we stride or stroll across the frozen lake,
> We place our feet where they have never been.
> We walk upon the unwalked. But we are uneasy.
> Who is down there but our old teachers?

Old teachers down there under the ice?  Mm, seems to be a wee bit of
sublimated hostility there.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Fri Feb 22 00:18:07 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:18:07 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
References: <B89922EA.2778%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3C75D48B.EEBD52B1@earthlink.net>

Shall you tell Natalie Goldberg, or shall I?

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

Paul Lake wrote:

> on 2/19/02 11:32 PM, odysseus34 at odysseus34 at earthlink.net wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > David Graham wrote:
> >
> >> Thinking of Stevens's fabled dislocation between day job and poetry--has
> >> anyone mentioned William Carlos Williams in this thread?
> >>
> >> Seems to me that WCW is a poet whose paying occupation was integral with his
> >> poetry, and perhaps even his poetics.   Don't know what, if anything, this
> >> might mean, for I'm not sure I could develop the point very convincingly.
> >> Just an intuition.
> >
> > I'm reminded of Natalie Goldberg's characterizing some of WCW's poems as
> > "prescription-pad-sized poems" in "Writing Down the Bones" (this was a
> > compliment on her part).  She visualizes WCW as writing poetry in between
> > patients in his office.  I don't know how true to life that is, though.
> >
> > Moira Russell
> > Seattle, WA
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> Williams did work on poems between patients in his office--but on a
> typewriter.
>
> Paul Lake
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






From odysseus34  Fri Feb 22 01:30:07 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:30:07 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
References: <B89A980E.FA42%sholman@mac.com>
Message-ID: <3C75E563.71F2CE34@earthlink.net>

You must get in Sam Gwynn's poem with first lines from the Norton Anthology --
I don't think I've read anything better in the field (unless maybe it's his
poem consisting of one-line Shakespeare descriptions as TV Guide would have
done them, but I think except for the first line that one's all original).

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

Shannon Holman wrote:

> As part of my thesis project for The New School's MFA program, I'm
> assembling a small anthology of centos ("patchwork poems" in which every
> line is taken from another poem).
>
> Please help me by sending your own centos (note source texts, please) or by
> dropping me a note about the cento as a form (i.e., favorite practioners,
> its place in the contemporary poetry landscape).
>
> You'll receive nothing but my thanks, a mild service-to-your-fellow-poet
> high and, if you want, a copy of the final paper.
>
> Please email sholman at mac.com directly with your questions and/or
> submissions.  I'm hoping to finish the research phase of this project by
> mid-March.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Shannon
>
> --
> Shannon Holman
> work: 212.545.6089
> home: 718.638.1239
> sholman at mac.com
> --
> http://www.onemississippi.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






From adead_poet  Fri Feb 22 03:13:22 2002
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 02:13:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
Message-ID: <F260QgeDKvPEkGhAj5p00009655@hotmail.com>

he also has a good cento made from lines from richard wilbur's poems. ask 
him to email you a copy of it.

jason

>From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] call for centos
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 23:30:07 -0700
>
>You must get in Sam Gwynn's poem with first lines from the Norton Anthology 
>--
>I don't think I've read anything better in the field (unless maybe it's his
>poem consisting of one-line Shakespeare descriptions as TV Guide would have
>done them, but I think except for the first line that one's all original).
>
>Moira Russell
>Seattle, WA
>
>Shannon Holman wrote:
>
> > As part of my thesis project for The New School's MFA program, I'm
> > assembling a small anthology of centos ("patchwork poems" in which every
> > line is taken from another poem).
> >
> > Please help me by sending your own centos (note source texts, please) or 
>by
> > dropping me a note about the cento as a form (i.e., favorite 
>practioners,
> > its place in the contemporary poetry landscape).
> >
> > You'll receive nothing but my thanks, a mild service-to-your-fellow-poet
> > high and, if you want, a copy of the final paper.
> >
> > Please email sholman at mac.com directly with your questions and/or
> > submissions.  I'm hoping to finish the research phase of this project by
> > mid-March.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Shannon
> >
> > --
> > Shannon Holman
> > work: 212.545.6089
> > home: 718.638.1239
> > sholman at mac.com
> > --
> > http://www.onemississippi.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.




From Robtberner  Fri Feb 22 06:15:35 2002
From: Robtberner (Robtberner at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 06:15:35 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
Message-ID: <18c.3b50a6b.29a78257@aol.com>

   many thanks to mbales for the tour of the serious burns unit. it's the 
best stuff to come across my screen since i got on the N-P network. Huzzahs!

                           robert berner



From barr  Fri Feb 22 07:28:33 2002
From: barr (Brandon Thomas Barr)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:28:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <3C75D48B.EEBD52B1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.21.0202220720140.9269146-100000@mail1.ats.rochester.edu>

I just caught this thread.  As one who has worked with Williams's
manuscripts, I would have to say that Goldberg ispretty correct in her
estimation.  For instance, large portions of "Many Loves" (Williams's
verse and prose play) are written on perscription pads.  That didn't
constrain the length of the writing, necessarily; there was only 20 words
or so scrawled on each, but sentences and phrases were of average length
(of course, this in prose sections).  Williams also keep notebook journals
and, at least as myth would have it, a typewriter under his desk that he
would pull out between patients to transcribe there stories and revise
lineations of his poetry.

With Williams, it really seems difficult to separate his work atmosphere
from his work, especially in his fiction and drama--and early works like
"Spring and All."

Brandon Barr
University of Rochester


On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, odysseus34 wrote:

> Shall you tell Natalie Goldberg, or shall I?
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> Paul Lake wrote:
> 
> > on 2/19/02 11:32 PM, odysseus34 at odysseus34 at earthlink.net wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > David Graham wrote:
> > >
> > >> Thinking of Stevens's fabled dislocation between day job and poetry--has
> > >> anyone mentioned William Carlos Williams in this thread?
> > >>
> > >> Seems to me that WCW is a poet whose paying occupation was integral with his
> > >> poetry, and perhaps even his poetics.   Don't know what, if anything, this
> > >> might mean, for I'm not sure I could develop the point very convincingly.
> > >> Just an intuition.
> > >
> > > I'm reminded of Natalie Goldberg's characterizing some of WCW's poems as
> > > "prescription-pad-sized poems" in "Writing Down the Bones" (this was a
> > > compliment on her part).  She visualizes WCW as writing poetry in between
> > > patients in his office.  I don't know how true to life that is, though.
> > >
> > > Moira Russell
> > > Seattle, WA
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > Williams did work on poems between patients in his office--but on a
> > typewriter.
> >
> > Paul Lake
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From thebobcooperfor  Fri Feb 22 08:12:41 2002
From: thebobcooperfor (bob cooper)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:12:41 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
Message-ID: <F207lORnvk4fzBsOY8C00012d49@hotmail.com>

Scots wimmin poets...
(from the 1980s on there's been a real rennaisance in Scottish poetry...)
Y could still say that Carol Ann Duffy and Jackie Kay are Scots (tho they 
haven?t lived in Scotland for a good few years). Carol Ann Duffy?s well 
represented on the Web. There's essays about them, reviews, as well as 
poems. Carol Ann's on the School Syllabus for 16 year olds.
And younger than Liz Lochead there?s Kathleen Jamie who?s got a good (and 
deserved) reputation. Each of all of the above have a canny few books 
published (check out the Bloodaxe Books website for details of Jackie Kay & 
Kathleen Jamie; the Anvil web pages for Carol Ann Duffy). Polygon is a 
significant Scottish poetry publisher.
Margaret Elphinstone is a another poet with a few books, but I can?t say 
I?ve read them).
And, like everyone can say, I know I met another one once ? I can remember 
her saying she came from Fife, and she won the Peterloo Prize (I think) a 
few years ago, but I can?t remember her name.
As well as the mag already mentioned there?s Lines Review (that?s erudite 
and published influential essays as well as good poets). Another, more 
mainstream magazine is Poetry Scotland.
Edinburgh and Glasgow both have multi-layered poetry scenes (& St. Andrews 
University is still the home of Verse magazine) but I don?t know how to 
penetrate them via the internet.
The Scottish Poetry Library may provide more info as well.
In the early 90s there was an anthology of Edinburgh women published (called 
Pomegranite (?)).
Fiona Ritchie Walker's another one with just one collection, so far. 
(Diamond Twig's Web Page, and Franks Caskett - find em via google)
As far as other Scots poets are concerned I guess one of the most exciting 
(and prolific) is W.N. Herbert (Bill Herbert). But Don Paterson, now editor 
of Picador, is also formally adept and 1st class. (Both are well featured on 
the Web). Another poet who's well worth a web-browse is Tom Leonard (check 
out what he does to William Carlos Williams! - this is juss t say...) and, 
more sensitive, Edwin Morgan - another Glaswegian (and very different) has 
recently been awarded the Queen's Medal for Poetry (he's also Web findable).
I guess they're all as Scots as the Malts they don't sell beyond the border.

Bob Cooper



>From: FaeryPoet9 at aol.com
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:33:23 EST
>
>Could anyone here point me to some information on contemporary Scottish
>poets, particularly women, but anyone rather interesting.  Thank you!
>~shahara in wi usa
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com




From gmcvay  Fri Feb 22 10:20:57 2002
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:20:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
In-Reply-To: <3C75E563.71F2CE34@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202221020200.26665-100000@adams.patriot.net>

On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, odysseus34 wrote:

> You must get in Sam Gwynn's poem with first lines from the Norton Anthology --

Where can one see this?

Signed, Curious




From robin.hamilton2  Fri Feb 22 09:50:04 2002
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 14:50:04 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
References: <F207lORnvk4fzBsOY8C00012d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <007901c1bbb8$91254540$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>

From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>

"
As well as the mag already mentioned there's Lines Review (that's erudite 
and published influential essays as well as good poets). 
"

That's DEFINITELY defunct, and for a good few years now.  (Alas!)

Robin Hamilton




From sholman  Fri Feb 22 11:20:05 2002
From: sholman (Shannon Holman)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:20:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202221020200.26665-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-ID: <B89BD8CC.FAC8%sholman@mac.com>

No Word of Farewell: Selected Poems 1970-2000, by R. S. Gwynn.  Story Line
Press, 2001.  Thanks to Moira and Jason for the tips.

Shannon


on 2/22/02 10:20 AM, Gwyn McVay at gmcvay at patriot.net wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, odysseus34 wrote:
> 
>> You must get in Sam Gwynn's poem with first lines from the Norton Anthology
>> --
> 
> Where can one see this?
> 
> Signed, Curious
> 

-- 
Shannon Holman
work: 212.545.6089
home: 718.638.1239
sholman at mac.com
--
http://www.onemississippi.com





From halvard  Fri Feb 22 11:27:40 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:27:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
In-Reply-To: <B89A980E.FA42%sholman@mac.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEENIEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Shannon,

Donald Hall did at least one of these awhile back, but I've totally
lost track of it. Maybe someone else here can steer you to it.

Hal     "metaphor--I use them. They keep me regular."
                         --Paul Violi

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


    
{    As part of my thesis project for The New School's MFA program, I'm
{    assembling a small anthology of centos ("patchwork poems" in which every
{    line is taken from another poem).
{    
{    Please help me by sending your own centos (note source texts, please) or by
{    dropping me a note about the cento as a form (i.e., favorite practioners,
{    its place in the contemporary poetry landscape).
{    
{    You'll receive nothing but my thanks, a mild service-to-your-fellow-poet
{    high and, if you want, a copy of the final paper.
{    
{    Please email sholman at mac.com directly with your questions and/or
{    submissions.  I'm hoping to finish the research phase of this project by
{    mid-March.
{    
{    
{    Thanks,
{    
{    Shannon
{    
{    
{    -- 
{    Shannon Holman
{    work: 212.545.6089
{    home: 718.638.1239
{    sholman at mac.com
{    --
{    http://www.onemississippi.com
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    



From Rsgwynn1  Fri Feb 22 11:35:32 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:35:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
Message-ID: <17b.40175e5.29a7cd54@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/21/2002 6:04:38 PM Central Standard Time, 
robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes:


> > There's a wonderful Scottish-American journal, The Dark Horse, which would
> > be a good place to start. . . .
> 
> If it's the same one I'm thinking of, it died the death a year or so ago,
> I'm afraid.
> 
> 

Nay, not so.
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From Rsgwynn1  Fri Feb 22 11:41:56 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 11:41:56 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
Message-ID: <f9.17d8dbac.29a7ced4@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/22/2002 9:22:24 AM Central Standard Time, 
gmcvay at patriot.net writes:


> 
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, odysseus34 wrote:
> 
> > You must get in Sam Gwynn's poem with first lines from the Norton 
> Anthology --
> 
> Where can one see this?
> 
> Signed, Curious
> 

A penny-pinching Scotswoman could purchase old Sam's book.

Big Gwynn
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From Cadaly  Fri Feb 22 12:37:03 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 12:37:03 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
Message-ID: <4f.1904027f.29a7dbbf@aol.com>

in addition to that audio cento, I did one with the first and last *words* of 
the Norton -- that's free

http://www.studiocleo.com/cauldron/volume3/verbal/catherine_daly/index.html

"Ae Ye Scots" is a quote from it...

Rgds,
Catherine
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From trbell  Thu Feb 21 19:47:52 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:47:52 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Chapbook at 2River
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206085037.01c20c08@pop3.slu.edu>
Message-ID: <05c501c1bb3a$9016dfc0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

Richard,

     How can I obtain a review copy of this?  I am a poet and psychologist.
I'm fairly sure I can get a review placed appropriately.

tom bell
2518 Wellington Pl.
Murfressboro, TN 37128

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Long" <rlong at jcws.net>
To: "Cafe BLue" <cafe-blue at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>;
<POETICS at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 8:51 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Chapbook at 2River


> All,
>
> 2River today released FIRST WOMAN, a chapbook by Katja, in which the
> narrator experiences the loss of innocence, then discovers the surprise
and
> disorder of being alive.
>
> Katja is a neurologist, wife, and mother, with poems in several little
> magazines.
>
> FIRST WOMAN, with art by Margot McGowan, is the 12th addition to the
2River
> Chapbook Series.
>
> Richard Long
>
> ======
> 2River
> rlong at 2River.org
> http://www.2River.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From sholman  Fri Feb 22 13:20:30 2002
From: sholman (Shannon Holman)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:20:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
In-Reply-To: <4f.1904027f.29a7dbbf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B89BF606.FAE0%sholman@mac.com>

By "that audio cento" do you mean the text at Idiolect 5
<http://www.lewislacook.com/daly.html>, or did I miss a message?

Why do slashes separate some of the words in "In the Beginning" and "Last
Words"?


Best,
Shannon


on 2/22/02 12:37 PM, Cadaly at aol.com at Cadaly at aol.com wrote:

in addition to that audio cento, I did one with the first and last *words*
of the Norton -- that's free

http://www.studiocleo.com/cauldron/volume3/verbal/catherine_daly/index.html

"Ae Ye Scots" is a quote from it...

Rgds,
Catherine 


-- 
Shannon Holman
work: 212.545.6089
home: 718.638.1239
sholman at mac.com
--
http://www.onemississippi.com





From trbell  Fri Feb 22 18:43:52 2002
From: trbell (trbell at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:43:52 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Chapbook at 2River
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206085037.01c20c08@pop3.slu.edu>
 <05c501c1bb3a$9016dfc0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c1bbfa$c9168940$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

please accept my apologies, all.  My server is changing and doing it in a
very messy way which in turn is messing up my emails and life.  Actually,
it's the people running the server who are doing the work so the above
sentence is inaccurate but I'm not sure how to fix it?  odd, the way we
write and think these days?

tom bell

----- Original Message -----
From: <trbell at home.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New Chapbook at 2River


> Richard,
>
>      How can I obtain a review copy of this?  I am a poet and
psychologist.
> I'm fairly sure I can get a review placed appropriately.
>
> tom bell
> 2518 Wellington Pl.
> Murfressboro, TN 37128
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Long" <rlong at jcws.net>
> To: "Cafe BLue" <cafe-blue at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>;
> <POETICS at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 8:51 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] New Chapbook at 2River
>
>
> > All,
> >
> > 2River today released FIRST WOMAN, a chapbook by Katja, in which the
> > narrator experiences the loss of innocence, then discovers the surprise
> and
> > disorder of being alive.
> >
> > Katja is a neurologist, wife, and mother, with poems in several little
> > magazines.
> >
> > FIRST WOMAN, with art by Margot McGowan, is the 12th addition to the
> 2River
> > Chapbook Series.
> >
> > Richard Long
> >
> > ======
> > 2River
> > rlong at 2River.org
> > http://www.2River.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Cadaly  Fri Feb 22 16:00:39 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 16:00:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
Message-ID: <d5.13812f77.29a80b77@aol.com>

those are letters in the Norton, so "dear" is formally the first word, but 
the real first word of the body of the lett
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From gmcvay  Fri Feb 22 21:02:27 2002
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:02:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
In-Reply-To: <f9.17d8dbac.29a7ced4@cs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202222058360.8425-100000@adams.patriot.net>

On Fri, 22 Feb 2002 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> A penny-pinching Scotswoman could purchase old Sam's book.
>
> Big Gwynn
>
A broke Polack with an Irish married surname has it on her list to
purchase when she is no longer broke.

Signed, She who is appalled at how some people, nay, most people,
pronounce Czeslaw Milosz, to say nothing of Wislawa Szymborska




From Arielpf123  Fri Feb 22 21:24:39 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 21:24:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
Message-ID: <f9.17de1339.29a85767@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/22/02 9:04:14 PM, gmcvay at patriot.net writes:

<< Signed, She who is appalled at how some people, nay, most people,
pronounce Czeslaw Milosz, to say nothing of Wislawa Szymborska >>

LOL.  I call him Coldslaw!!     Seriously, he was at an international 
conference in Galway that I was at several years ago and I do know how to say 
his name (after much angst and practicing) and I have enormous respect for 
him.

patf.



From odysseus34  Sat Feb 23 00:28:17 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 22:28:17 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
References: <f9.17d8dbac.29a7ced4@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3C77286D.614BAB8B@earthlink.net>

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From wasanthony  Sat Feb 23 08:08:25 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 05:08:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] perhaps old news
In-Reply-To: <F207lORnvk4fzBsOY8C00012d49@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20020223130825.35173.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com>

I was updating the poetserv.com links this morning and thought to pass
on the site below, which might be old news to some.  - Jim

The Internet Public Library
<http://www.ipl.org/ref/RR/static/hum60.00.00.html>
has links categorized as

Authors: Sites here are about the work or lives of specific authors or
sites that discuss groups of authors. For sites about authors in a time
period, use the Literature by Time Period section. 

Criticism 

Writing: Works about the writing process, and directly mainly toward
writers. 

Writings (Original Works): Original works of creative writing. 

Literature by Time Period 

Book Lists & Awards 

Online Texts 


=====
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>

Readings: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/readings.html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From hruggier  Sat Feb 23 10:01:36 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:01:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
References: <cd.13810ff4.29a6ddc3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C77AED0.C79A476A@localnet.com>

There's an online information cite for "New Writing Scotland" which is
produced by the Association for Scottish Literary Studies.  The editor is
Duncan Jones, University of Glasgow, 9, University Gardens, Glasgow G12
8QH   The address is http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/ScotLit
An interesting browse.

There used to be a Journal of Scottish Poetry (Akros) - but I don't know if
it's still in business. I'll dig around and see if I can come up with a
copy.

Helen Ruggieri

FaeryPoet9 at aol.com wrote:

> Could anyone here point me to some information on contemporary Scottish
> poets, particularly women, but anyone rather interesting.  Thank you!
> ~shahara in wi usa
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From hruggier  Sat Feb 23 10:18:35 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:18:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
References: <cd.13810ff4.29a6ddc3@aol.com> <3C758C41.17294.10B8B7DC@localhost>
Message-ID: <3C77B2CB.20696446@localnet.com>

Oh, that's wonderful!  I "collect" Scot jokes -
here's one my cousin Lewis Grassic Gibbon of the kaleyarders told:

A poor woman in Aberdeen had her husband cremated (upon his death, of
course).  Later, the undertaker brought her an urn with the ashes.  She
looked at him suspiciously and asked, "Where's the drippin's?"

My parents were both Aberdonians so I can get away with it -

Helen Mitchell Ruggieri

Marcus Bales wrote:

> An Englishman is being shown around a Scottish hospital. At the end of
> his visit, he is shown into a ward with a number of patients who show no
> obvious signs of injury. He goes to examine the first man he sees, and
> the man proclaims:
>
> "Fair fa' yer sonsie face,
> Great chieftain e' the puddin' race!
> Aboon them a' ye tak your place,
> Painch tripe or thairm:
> Weel are ye wordy o' a grace
> As lang's my arm."
>
> The Englishman, somewhat taken aback, goes to the next patient, who
> immediately launches into:
>
> "Some hae meat, and canna eat, and some wad eat that want it,
> But we hae meat and we can eat,
> And sae the Lord be thankit."
>
> And suddenly the next patient sits up and declaims.
>
> "Wee sleekit cow'rin tim'rous beastie,
> O what a panic's in thy breastie!
> Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
> wi' bickering brattle
> I wad be laith to run and chase thee,
> wi' murdering prattle!"
>
> "Well," said the Englishman to his Scottish colleague, "I see you saved
> the psychiatric ward for the last."
> "Nay, nay," the Scottish doctor corrected him, "This is the Serious Burns
> Unit."
>
> Marcus Bales
> http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From robin.hamilton2  Sat Feb 23 10:05:40 2002
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 15:05:40 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
References: <cd.13810ff4.29a6ddc3@aol.com> <3C77AED0.C79A476A@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <010001c1bc7c$334f82e0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>

From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>

> There used to be a Journal of Scottish Poetry (Akros) - but I don't know
if
> it's still in business. I'll dig around and see if I can come up with a
> copy.

Nope -- long gone.  Which is a shame, as Duncan Glen was one of the few
editors who really pushed contemporary Lallans verse.

Robin Hamilton






From thebobcooperfor  Sat Feb 23 11:19:49 2002
From: thebobcooperfor (bob cooper)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 16:19:49 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
Message-ID: <F70d3uqp43u83s4RpCm000145f0@hotmail.com>

Oh, I mentioned below, there's another poet I'd forgotten. Well I remembered 
last night. Scribbled it on a bus ticket. Just re-discovered the ticket!
Anna Crowe (published, I believe, by Peterloo)!
And I never mentioned Robert Crawford (a young-ish guy!) who's an 
interesting critic as well as poet.
And (with his geopoetics, the always outsider) Kenneth White!



>From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
>Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 13:12:41 +0000
>
>Scots wimmin poets...
>(from the 1980s on there's been a real rennaisance in Scottish poetry...)
>Y could still say that Carol Ann Duffy and Jackie Kay are Scots (tho they
>haven?t lived in Scotland for a good few years). Carol Ann Duffy?s well
>represented on the Web. There's essays about them, reviews, as well as
>poems. Carol Ann's on the School Syllabus for 16 year olds.
>And younger than Liz Lochead there?s Kathleen Jamie who?s got a good (and
>deserved) reputation. Each of all of the above have a canny few books
>published (check out the Bloodaxe Books website for details of Jackie Kay &
>Kathleen Jamie; the Anvil web pages for Carol Ann Duffy). Polygon is a
>significant Scottish poetry publisher.
>Margaret Elphinstone is a another poet with a few books, but I can?t say
>I?ve read them).
>And, like everyone can say, I know I met another one once ? I can remember
>her saying she came from Fife, and she won the Peterloo Prize (I think) a
>few years ago, but I can?t remember her name.
>As well as the mag already mentioned there?s Lines Review (that?s erudite
>and published influential essays as well as good poets). Another, more
>mainstream magazine is Poetry Scotland.
>Edinburgh and Glasgow both have multi-layered poetry scenes (& St. Andrews
>University is still the home of Verse magazine) but I don?t know how to
>penetrate them via the internet.
>The Scottish Poetry Library may provide more info as well.
>In the early 90s there was an anthology of Edinburgh women published 
>(called
>Pomegranite (?)).
>Fiona Ritchie Walker's another one with just one collection, so far.
>(Diamond Twig's Web Page, and Franks Caskett - find em via google)
>As far as other Scots poets are concerned I guess one of the most exciting
>(and prolific) is W.N. Herbert (Bill Herbert). But Don Paterson, now editor
>of Picador, is also formally adept and 1st class. (Both are well featured 
>on
>the Web). Another poet who's well worth a web-browse is Tom Leonard (check
>out what he does to William Carlos Williams! - this is juss t say...) and,
>more sensitive, Edwin Morgan - another Glaswegian (and very different) has
>recently been awarded the Queen's Medal for Poetry (he's also Web 
>findable).
>I guess they're all as Scots as the Malts they don't sell beyond the 
>border.
>
>Bob Cooper
>
>
>
>>From: FaeryPoet9 at aol.com
>>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
>>Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 18:33:23 EST
>>
>>Could anyone here point me to some information on contemporary Scottish
>>poets, particularly women, but anyone rather interesting.  Thank you!
>>~shahara in wi usa
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com




From grahamd  Sat Feb 23 11:22:30 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 10:22:30 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: call for centos
Message-ID: <200202231622.g1NGMDx48294@mx6.mx.voyager.net>

Well, if you're thinking of Sam's poem "Approaching a Significant Birthday,
He Peruses the Norton Anthology of Poetry," that'd be in the *Rebel Angels*
anthology.

But I agree:  better to purchase old Sam's book.

David Graham


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] call for centos
Date: Fri, Feb 22, 2002, 11:28 PM


 

Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: 
A penny-pinching Scotswoman could purchase old Sam's book. 

Big Gwynn
It has also been pretty heavily anthologized, I think.  I first read it in
an anthology (unfortunately no longer remember which one). 

Moira Russell 
Seattle, WA 
 _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
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From hruggier  Sun Feb 24 11:24:19 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 11:24:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish Poets
References: <cd.13810ff4.29a6ddc3@aol.com> <3C77AED0.C79A476A@localnet.com> <010001c1bc7c$334f82e0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>
Message-ID: <3C7913B3.5AA4E96C@localnet.com>

I had some poems in there - maybe 15 or 20 years ago - and we corresponded for
a few years about doing an anthology of Scottish-American poetry.  Never got
it together though.   I did admire him for his dedication.



Robin Hamilton wrote:

> From: "Helen Ruggieri" <hruggier at localnet.com>
>
> > There used to be a Journal of Scottish Poetry (Akros) - but I don't know
> if
> > it's still in business. I'll dig around and see if I can come up with a
> > copy.
>
> Nope -- long gone.  Which is a shame, as Duncan Glen was one of the few
> editors who really pushed contemporary Lallans verse.
>
> Robin Hamilton
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From paul.lake  Mon Feb 25 15:15:28 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 14:15:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lesson
Message-ID: <B89FF780.27D0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Here's a link to a poem that might brighten the day of poets less than fond
of postmodern criticism.

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0202/poetry.html#lesson

Paul Lake




From CobbCoStudioArts  Mon Feb 25 18:07:11 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:07:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lesson
Message-ID: <20020225230711.3DEF52757@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From Rsgwynn1  Mon Feb 25 18:51:29 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:51:29 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lesson
Message-ID: <a5.235eb711.29ac2801@cs.com>

Bravo!
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From JforJames  Mon Feb 25 20:22:42 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:22:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brooks Haxton's Victor Hugo
Message-ID: <98.21f84f69.29ac3d62@aol.com>

A 19th-century writer's words still resonate
Celebrating the man who wrote 'Les Mis' and 'Hunchback'

By Benjamin Ivry | Special to The Christian Science Monitor 

Two hundred years after his birth, the French writer Victor Hugo (1802-1885) 
is best known in America as the author of the novels that inspired the 
Broadway musical "Les Miserables" and the Disney film version of "The 
Hunchback of Notre Dame." 
But as people worldwide - including many in Russia and China - celebrate the 
novelist 200 years after his birth, his contributions as a poet, a 
politician, and a nonfiction writer are also being more widely lauded in a 
growing number of English-speaking countries.
 
  In addition to his novels, Hugo wrote nearly two-dozen plays, 18 
collections of poetry, and about 3 million words of nonfiction prose (history 
and criticism). Seen as a major political activist and defender of individual 
freedoms, the Frenchman embodied a kind of varied energy that still impresses 
readers and inspires some politicians today.

"Hugo was one of the most popular writers in the world during most of his 
adult life," says Syracuse, N.Y.-based poet Brooks Haxton, who recently 
translated Hugo's "Selected Poems" for Penguin Classics. "The whole of the 
Arc de Triomphe was draped in black velvet for his funeral in Paris, and the 
size of the crowd attending exceeded the entire population of the city."

In France, Hugo is perhaps remembered most for his poetry, which he wrote in 
a freer style than French poets had for centuries. But in the United States 
and other countries, the main reason for Hugo's enduring popularity was that 
he took a stand for his political beliefs and lived what he wrote.

When Hugo opposed the royalist Louis Napoleon's seizure of power in France in 
1851, he didn't just object in print; he went out to the streets to help 
build barricades for protesters. Indeed, after 1851, Hugo was obliged to live 
in exile in the Channel Islands for 20 years.

"His politically oriented works still speak to all who feel oppressed, 
wherever and whenever they may be," says Missouri-based Hugo aficionado John 
Newmark, who launched the website www.gavroche.org (named after the heroic 
urchin in "Les Miserables"). "Society needs good role models, and Hugo [was] 
one."

Newmark says American affection for Hugo's work is a long-standing tradition, 
ever since "Les Miserables" was published simultaneously in English and 
French in 1860.

"In the USA, so many [members] of the Confederate Army had copies of 'Les 
Miserables,' they nicknamed themselves 'Lee's Miserables' (combining Gen. 
Robert E. Lee's name and Hugo's novel)," he says.

One of Hugo's campaigns that is still a point of controversy was his rabid 
opposition to the death penalty and his fight for prisoners' rights. (He 
called the guillotine "that infamous machine.")

When California passed the "three strikes law," which mandates heavy prison 
sentences for a third criminal offense, even a relatively trivial one, a 
California state appellate judge compared one case to "Les Miserables," in 
which the hero, Jean Valjean, was sentenced to heavy prison terms for 
stealing food.

This kind of timeliness adds energy to celebrations in Hugo's native France, 
where conferences, performances, and art exhibits are planned. In February, 
events include a major exhibit at the Biblioth?que Nationale, lectures on 
subjects ranging from "Victor Hugo and Women" to "Victor Hugo and the Ouija 
Board," and a staged version of his sentimental late work, "The Art of Being 
a Grandfather," on a houseboat on the Seine River.

Yet his verse remains of primary importance because he wrote passionately 
about a broader range of human experiences than other French poets, poet 
Haxton says.

"He was almost universally acknowledged as the greatest living poet in 
France," he says. "Hugo enlarged the French sense of poetry, producing a 
great number of the finest poems in the language and preparing the ground for 
the burgeoning of poetry in France...."

But in America, Haxton says, Hugo's poetry is still underappreciated. "Very 
few people except students of French have ever read a poem by Victor Hugo," 
he says. "This is all the more inexplicable because Hugo at his best is 
highly accessible, lucid in thought, and passionate in feeling. An important, 
largely indirect influence on American poetry, especially on the poetry of 
social conscience and unfettered feeling, he remains unknown to many writers 
whose work he has made possible."

Haxton says he hopes that during this Hugo year, "the perennial popularity of 
Hugo's fiction will lead to a revival of interest in the poems which, almost 
everyone who knows them will agree, are his most substantial accomplishment."

Indeed, Haxton's clear English translations in his book "Selected Poems" 
allow the reader to see Hugo's gift for simplicity, as well as his grandiose 
fervor.

But even those who just listen again to rousing music of "Les Miserables" or 
watch Disney's "Hunchback" may gain a bit of appreciation for Hugo, whom 
Alfred Lord Tennyson called: "Victor in Poesy, Victor in Romance, 
Cloud-weaver of phantasmal hopes and fears, French of the French, and Lord of 
human tears."




From tadrichards  Mon Feb 25 22:06:22 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:06:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brooks Haxton's Victor Hugo
References: <98.21f84f69.29ac3d62@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002301c1be72$92f28100$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Here's a link for a Haxton translation of Hugo:

http://www.poets.org/poems/poems.cfm?prmID=2664



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 8:22 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brooks Haxton's Victor Hugo


A 19th-century writer's words still resonate
Celebrating the man who wrote 'Les Mis' and 'Hunchback'

By Benjamin Ivry | Special to The Christian Science Monitor

Two hundred years after his birth, the French writer Victor Hugo (1802-1885)
is best known in America as the author of the novels that inspired the
Broadway musical "Les Miserables" and the Disney film version of "The
Hunchback of Notre Dame."
But as people worldwide - including many in Russia and China - celebrate the
novelist 200 years after his birth, his contributions as a poet, a
politician, and a nonfiction writer are also being more widely lauded in a
growing number of English-speaking countries.

  In addition to his novels, Hugo wrote nearly two-dozen plays, 18
collections of poetry, and about 3 million words of nonfiction prose
(history
and criticism). Seen as a major political activist and defender of
individual
freedoms, the Frenchman embodied a kind of varied energy that still
impresses
readers and inspires some politicians today.

"Hugo was one of the most popular writers in the world during most of his
adult life," says Syracuse, N.Y.-based poet Brooks Haxton, who recently
translated Hugo's "Selected Poems" for Penguin Classics. "The whole of the
Arc de Triomphe was draped in black velvet for his funeral in Paris, and the
size of the crowd attending exceeded the entire population of the city."

In France, Hugo is perhaps remembered most for his poetry, which he wrote in
a freer style than French poets had for centuries. But in the United States
and other countries, the main reason for Hugo's enduring popularity was that
he took a stand for his political beliefs and lived what he wrote.

When Hugo opposed the royalist Louis Napoleon's seizure of power in France
in
1851, he didn't just object in print; he went out to the streets to help
build barricades for protesters. Indeed, after 1851, Hugo was obliged to
live
in exile in the Channel Islands for 20 years.

"His politically oriented works still speak to all who feel oppressed,
wherever and whenever they may be," says Missouri-based Hugo aficionado John
Newmark, who launched the website www.gavroche.org (named after the heroic
urchin in "Les Miserables"). "Society needs good role models, and Hugo [was]
one."

Newmark says American affection for Hugo's work is a long-standing
tradition,
ever since "Les Miserables" was published simultaneously in English and
French in 1860.

"In the USA, so many [members] of the Confederate Army had copies of 'Les
Miserables,' they nicknamed themselves 'Lee's Miserables' (combining Gen.
Robert E. Lee's name and Hugo's novel)," he says.

One of Hugo's campaigns that is still a point of controversy was his rabid
opposition to the death penalty and his fight for prisoners' rights. (He
called the guillotine "that infamous machine.")

When California passed the "three strikes law," which mandates heavy prison
sentences for a third criminal offense, even a relatively trivial one, a
California state appellate judge compared one case to "Les Miserables," in
which the hero, Jean Valjean, was sentenced to heavy prison terms for
stealing food.

This kind of timeliness adds energy to celebrations in Hugo's native France,
where conferences, performances, and art exhibits are planned. In February,
events include a major exhibit at the Biblioth?que Nationale, lectures on
subjects ranging from "Victor Hugo and Women" to "Victor Hugo and the Ouija
Board," and a staged version of his sentimental late work, "The Art of Being
a Grandfather," on a houseboat on the Seine River.

Yet his verse remains of primary importance because he wrote passionately
about a broader range of human experiences than other French poets, poet
Haxton says.

"He was almost universally acknowledged as the greatest living poet in
France," he says. "Hugo enlarged the French sense of poetry, producing a
great number of the finest poems in the language and preparing the ground
for
the burgeoning of poetry in France...."

But in America, Haxton says, Hugo's poetry is still underappreciated. "Very
few people except students of French have ever read a poem by Victor Hugo,"
he says. "This is all the more inexplicable because Hugo at his best is
highly accessible, lucid in thought, and passionate in feeling. An
important,
largely indirect influence on American poetry, especially on the poetry of
social conscience and unfettered feeling, he remains unknown to many writers
whose work he has made possible."

Haxton says he hopes that during this Hugo year, "the perennial popularity
of
Hugo's fiction will lead to a revival of interest in the poems which, almost
everyone who knows them will agree, are his most substantial
accomplishment."

Indeed, Haxton's clear English translations in his book "Selected Poems"
allow the reader to see Hugo's gift for simplicity, as well as his grandiose
fervor.

But even those who just listen again to rousing music of "Les Miserables" or
watch Disney's "Hunchback" may gain a bit of appreciation for Hugo, whom
Alfred Lord Tennyson called: "Victor in Poesy, Victor in Romance,
Cloud-weaver of phantasmal hopes and fears, French of the French, and Lord
of
human tears."

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Rsgwynn1  Tue Feb 26 00:04:31 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 00:04:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brooks Haxton's Victor Hugo
Message-ID: <4e.72818c5.29ac715f@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/25/2002 9:10:56 PM Central Standard Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:


> 
> Here's a link for a Haxton translation of Hugo:
> 
> http://www.poets.org/poems/poems.cfm?prmID=2664
> 

If it ain't got that swing, it just don't mean a thing.
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From Rsgwynn1  Tue Feb 26 00:15:08 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 00:15:08 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brooks Haxton's Victor Hugo
Message-ID: <ba.21d1e535.29ac73dc@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/25/2002 9:10:56 PM Central Standard Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:


> Here's a link for a Haxton translation of Hugo:
> 
> http://www.poets.org/poems/poems.cfm?prmID=2664
> 
> 
> 

Obviously a translation of Richard Hugo.
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From odysseus34  Mon Feb 25 23:23:35 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:23:35 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lesson
References: <B89FF780.27D0%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3C7B0DC2.FD4094F8@earthlink.net>

That "Means snake, and connotes evil, death, and dark" is really nice.  I
mean, I liked the whole thing  -- but what a line.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

Paul Lake wrote:

> Here's a link to a poem that might brighten the day of poets less than fond
> of postmodern criticism.
>
> http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0202/poetry.html#lesson
>
> Paul Lake
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






From Rsgwynn1  Tue Feb 26 00:21:41 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 00:21:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brooks Haxton's Victor Hugo
Message-ID: <ae.22e67589.29ac7565@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/25/2002 9:10:56 PM Central Standard Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:


> http://www.poets.org/poems/poems.cfm?prmID=2664
> 
> The man's mind, clear of untoward feeling, 
clothed itself in candor. He wore clean robes. 
> always 
toward the poor, no less than public fountains.



    







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From paul.lake  Tue Feb 26 11:32:11 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:32:11 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Lesson
In-Reply-To: <20020225230711.3DEF52757@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <B8A114AA.27E4%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/25/02 5:07 PM, Robert R.Cobb at CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com wrote:

> Congratulations, Paul!
> 
> I liked your poem.
> 
> Bob Cobb
> 
> Poetry Catamaran
> 
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known mainstream'
> down to the poetic sea?"
> 
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
> 
> 
> --- Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:
>> Here's a link to a poem that might brighten the day of poets less than fond
>> of postmodern criticism.
>> 
>> http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0202/poetry.html#lesson
>> 
>> Paul Lake
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Thanks, Bob.

Paul




From GrahamD  Tue Feb 26 11:57:50 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:57:50 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  A Lesson
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D46@mail.ripon.edu>

Thanks for this, Paul.  A somewhat similar poem of mine, called "How the
Text Smells":

http://tech1.dccs.upenn.edu/xconnect/v3/i3/g/graham2.html

David Graham

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================

> ----------
> From: 	Paul Lake
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Monday, February 25, 2002 2:15 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] A Lesson
> 
> Here's a link to a poem that might brighten the day of poets less than
> fond
> of postmodern criticism.
> 
> http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0202/poetry.html#lesson
> 
> Paul Lake
> 
> 



From paul.lake  Tue Feb 26 13:24:55 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:24:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  A Lesson
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D46@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <B8A12F17.27EC%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/26/02 10:57 AM, Graham, David at GrahamD at mail.ripon.edu wrote:

> Thanks for this, Paul.  A somewhat similar poem of mine, called "How the
> Text Smells":
> 
> http://tech1.dccs.upenn.edu/xconnect/v3/i3/g/graham2.html
> 
> David Graham
> 
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
> 
>> ----------
>> From:     Paul Lake
>> Reply To:     new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Sent:     Monday, February 25, 2002 2:15 PM
>> To:     new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Subject:     [New-Poetry] A Lesson
>> 
>> Here's a link to a poem that might brighten the day of poets less than
>> fond
>> of postmodern criticism.
>> 
>> http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0202/poetry.html#lesson
>> 
>> Paul Lake
>> 
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
David, I like it!  A postmodern pooch on the cutting edge of theory.

Paul Lake




From Cadaly  Tue Feb 26 14:33:26 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 14:33:26 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Fw: The Influence of an Author's "Other" Career (3/30/02; MMLA, 11/8/02-1...
Message-ID: <12c.d204fa9.29ad3d06@aol.com>

 



From wasanthony  Tue Feb 26 20:23:01 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 17:23:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The poetics of this?
Message-ID: <20020227012301.85378.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com>

< http://www.luccaco.com/terra/terra.htm>

- Jim

=====
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>

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From grahamd  Tue Feb 26 21:07:11 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:07:11 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem suggestions
Message-ID: <200202270206.g1R26DB39850@mx13.mx.voyager.net>

Here's a somewhat odd query.  For a class excercise, I'm looking for brief
poems that suspend one of more of the laws of nature:  you know, gravity,
time, the usual suspects.  Sci-fi poems, really:  in which people fly, turn
invisible, travel backwards in time, possess X-Ray vision,  grow to huge
dimensions; or in which animals talk; etc.. . . . 

Suggestions for example poems highly welcome.  At the moment I'm looking
mainly for contemporary examples, so don't suggest that talking serpent from
*Paradise Lost*.  

David Graham


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




From Rsgwynn1  Tue Feb 26 23:03:55 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 23:03:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem suggestions
Message-ID: <fd.14294d18.29adb4ab@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/26/2002 8:08:30 PM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes:


> Here's a somewhat odd query.  For a class excercise, I'm looking for brief
> poems that suspend one of more of the laws of nature:  you know, gravity,
> time, the usual suspects.  Sci-fi poems, really:  in which people fly, turn
> invisible, travel backwards in time, possess X-Ray vision,  grow to huge
> dimensions; or in which animals talk; etc.. . . . 
> 
> 

Emerson, "Fable"
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From wasanthony  Wed Feb 27 07:55:22 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 04:55:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem suggestions
In-Reply-To: <200202270206.g1R26DB39850@mx13.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <20020227125522.64823.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com>

Delayed reaction.  After a good night's sleep, I remembered an
anthology titled _Verse & Universe: Poems About Science and
Mathematics_, ed. Kurt Brown, Milkweed Editions, 1998, that is on my
bookshelf.  You might find what you're looking for in there if your
library has it.  Here's the first section of Ronald Wallace's "Chaos
Theory":

1. Sensitive Dependence on Initial Conditions

*For want of a nail the shoe was lost,
for want of a shoe the horse was lost*,
and so on to the ultimate loss -- a battle,
a world.  In other words, the breeze
from this butterfly's golden wings
could fan a tsunami in Indonesia
or send a small chill across the neck
of an old love about to collapse in Kansas
in an alcoholic stupor -- her last.
Everything is connected.  Blame it on
the butterfly, if you will.  Or the gesture
thirty years ago, the glance across
the ninth-grade auditorium floor,
to the girl who would one day be your
lover, then ex-lover, then the wind
that lift's the memory's tsunami,
the mare of the imagination, bolting,
the shoe that claps the nail down on
your always already unending dream.

and here's one by yours truly:

Temporary Meaning


Things sit around, decompose, or get thrown out.
This is what I think of the broken hoe
and a blackened orange while neighbors hammer
and grackles drop and stab into the flooded lawn.  
Now, at this moment, the universe clicks into place, 
admits quite openly that all is pointless and bestows
a temporary meaning on philosophies.
At what point, I wonder, will this dawn on everyone?
Should I run to the fence and ask, "Have you gotten it yet?"
Instead, I yell: "Your repairs are useless!"
The mindless hammering stops and it occurs to me
that I am the chance generator of a silent wave
that rolls in all directions, sucks everyone
into its undertow and never spits them out.
Or that I'm the last to catch on and the first one
tossed naked onto the long awaited Mohave beach.  
This would explain a sign that says "Psychic Dump."
It would also explain how easily  birds 
have learned the ring of a cordless phone, 
and why everytime they sing, I run to answer.


- Jim

--- David Graham <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu> wrote:
> Here's a somewhat odd query.  For a class excercise, I'm looking for
> brief
> poems that suspend one of more of the laws of nature:  you know,
> gravity,
> time, the usual suspects.  Sci-fi poems, really:  in which people
> fly, turn
> invisible, travel backwards in time, possess X-Ray vision,  grow to
> huge
> dimensions; or in which animals talk; etc.. . . . 
> 
> Suggestions for example poems highly welcome.  At the moment I'm
> looking
> mainly for contemporary examples, so don't suggest that talking
> serpent from
> *Paradise Lost*.  
> 
> David Graham
> 
> 
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>

Readings: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/readings.html>

__________________________________________________
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From paul.lake  Wed Feb 27 10:45:08 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:45:08 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem suggestions
In-Reply-To: <200202270206.g1R26DB39850@mx13.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <B8A25B24.27F7%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/26/02 8:07 PM, David Graham at grahamd at mail.ripon.edu wrote:

> Here's a somewhat odd query.  For a class excercise, I'm looking for brief
> poems that suspend one of more of the laws of nature:  you know, gravity,
> time, the usual suspects.  Sci-fi poems, really:  in which people fly, turn
> invisible, travel backwards in time, possess X-Ray vision,  grow to huge
> dimensions; or in which animals talk; etc.. . . .
> 
> Suggestions for example poems highly welcome.  At the moment I'm looking
> mainly for contemporary examples, so don't suggest that talking serpent from
> *Paradise Lost*. 
> 
> David Graham
> 
> 
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
There's a poem by Katha Polit about time going backward as the universe
begins to contract that's quite good. The speaker meets her own life going
backward, too.  Can't remember the title.

Paul Lake




From MillB  Wed Feb 27 11:47:30 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:47:30 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem suggestions
Message-ID: <175.43a316d.29ae67a2@aol.com>

David:

What about Craig Raine's "A Martian Sends a Postcard Home"?

Here's the web page for the text--if you don't have the British anthology 
(and probably others) where it appears.

http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/131.html

Cheers,

Mill

PS: One more week until AWP


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From MillB  Wed Feb 27 11:49:07 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:49:07 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem suggestions
Message-ID: <9e.2299bb97.29ae6803@aol.com>

PS:  Many of Edward Fields poems deal with monsters and transformations. . .



From chryss  Wed Feb 27 11:54:29 2002
From: chryss (Chryss Yost)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:54:29 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem suggestions
Message-ID: <20020227170504.7F2D4145597@beach.silcom.com>

Lots of Albert Goldbarth. . .
----------
>From: "David Graham" <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
>To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem suggestions
>Date: Tue, Feb 26, 2002, 6:07 PM
>

>Here's a somewhat odd query.  For a class excercise, I'm looking for brief
>poems that suspend one of more of the laws of nature:  you know, gravity,
>time, the usual suspects.  Sci-fi poems, really:  in which people fly, turn
>invisible, travel backwards in time, possess X-Ray vision,  grow to huge
>dimensions; or in which animals talk; etc.. . . . 
>
>Suggestions for example poems highly welcome.  At the moment I'm looking
>mainly for contemporary examples, so don't suggest that talking serpent
from
>*Paradise Lost*.  
>
>David Graham
>
>
>========================================
>David Graham
>grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
>Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>========================================
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From GrahamD  Wed Feb 27 12:17:59 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:17:59 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Poem suggestions
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D51@mail.ripon.edu>

Let me offer a public thanks to all who have sent suggestions for
sci-fi/bent reality poems--and some actual texts, too.  I appreciate them
all, and am using a handful in class this very afternoon.  More anon,
probably.

I've got an "advanced" undergrad creative writing class this term (all
genres) with a higher than usual proportion of sci-fi /fantasy buffs, so
I've been trying to devise new exercises that might appeal.  Not being very
well read in sci-fi, and wanting to bring poetry into the mix, I've been
racking my brains thinking of poems that suspend various laws of nature.
Most of my students are fiction writers, but in this class everyone has to
try multiple genres.  

Today we're reading H. G. Wells's "The New Accelerator," a nifty story about
an elixir that speeds up the metabolism a thousandfold, so that you can run
around all over the place in an eyeblink, invisible to all.  I thought:
hey, a poet can do that, too. . . .

David Graham

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================

> ----------
> From: 	MillB at aol.com
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 27, 2002 10:49 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Poem suggestions
> 
> PS:  Many of Edward Fields poems deal with monsters and transformations. .
> .
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From daisyf1  Wed Feb 27 12:24:49 2002
From: daisyf1 (Daisy Fried)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:24:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poem Suggestions
Message-ID: <20020227.122449.-250233.0.daisyf1@juno.com>

 David--Do you know Albert Goldbarth's _Marriage and Other Science
Fictions__? It should be a goldmine for this although admittedly brevity
isn't usually Goldbarth's thing. The very first poem of the book, "Mars,"
is short, and below...Also, my pal Don Riggs, a Philly poet and smart
guy, edited along with one Judith Kerman a book called _Uncommonplaces:
Poems of the Fantastic_ [Mayapple Press]--I don't know how easy it would
be to get hold of this quickly but I can give you Don's e-mail if you're
interested (backchannel me) and he might be able to expedite things.
Anyhow, here's that Goldbarth, which is fully italicized in the original:

Mars

Outside of town, near midnight,
I can always find that special point
on my dial where two far stations hit
congruently, so hot jazz
and a fundamentalist preacher say their
passions at once. I think of Mars

and what it must be like to live
below two moons. In books I read
as a teenager, someone always adventured out
of Marsport, over those crimson dunes, with double
the dose of high romance I ever expected
--although I've  heard a woman and some

inner djinn of my own call to me simultaneously,
away from each other. Where's the point
in a rabbi where a wife and a God
both bed down? Isn't this what we call
science fiction?--someone
who can see by two lights.

Cheers,
Daisy



From halvard  Wed Feb 27 15:30:15 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:30:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Russell Edson, "Genital Secrets"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKECHELAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Genital Secrets

   A woman is asked if her baby is a boy or a girl.
   I don't know, I've never looked. I don't think it right that one
invade the privacy of the diaper, that place of genital secrets.
   But wouldn't you like to know if it's a boy or a girl?
   If it develops whiskers I'll call it Henry. And if it doesn't I'll
call it Henrietta, said the woman.
   But supposing it develops feathers?
   Then I'll put yesterday's newspaper on the floor of its cage and
offer it a cracker, said the woman. But should it develop whiskers
I'd call it Henry. And if it didn't I'd call it Henrietta and offer it
another cracker . . .

--Russell Edson


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html

	





From cvoisine  Wed Feb 27 17:17:56 2002
From: cvoisine (NMSU)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:17:56 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] work
Message-ID: <B8995CB6.1283%cvoisine@nmsu.edu>

 To address the issue of work (as a recent inductee to this list):
   
    I wonder why lately I don't enjoy reading poems and stories about
professors. Especially since, after years of education and 17 of being a
waitress, I am finally a professor. Sometimes I grumble and get going about
how limited the folks writing are these days--stuck in academic jobs, never
had a real job, so the only thing they know is academia. Then I start
growling about how I will never do that, how could I forget all those years
of marrying ketchups and whatnot. Then, I know that I want to read stories
and poems about waitresses, and hell, I did that for years, why would I want
to read about it? I usually decide that I am contrary. I want to read about
what I am not doing. That's part of my escapist fix I get with reading. (As
far as writing goes, I feel that choosing to write about my particular
working-poor status for much of my life is a (political) necessity. AND I
love Merwin and even James Merrill.)
    I have problems with valorizing one kind of work or life over another. I
remember when I first arrived a poor girl at Yale, two years were spent
understanding "oh my god. I am poor! what an awful thing to go through." My
next two years were about learning "jesus, we all got it tough one way or
another." No buts about it. I don't think suffering contests are ever the
way to go.




From wasanthony  Wed Feb 27 18:45:32 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:45:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] work
In-Reply-To: <B8995CB6.1283%cvoisine@nmsu.edu>
Message-ID: <20020227234532.24118.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com>

Dear ?:  A time-honored profession for actors, actresses, musicians,
grad students, and professors-in-waiting.  "Suffering contests.
Suffering contests."  What was the cartoon character that said that?

- Jim, tenured professor, ex-surveyor, ex-landscaper, ex-musician

--- NMSU <cvoisine at nmsu.edu> wrote:
>  To address the issue of work (as a recent inductee to this list):
>    
>     I wonder why lately I don't enjoy reading poems and stories about
> professors. Especially since, after years of education and 17 of
> being a
> waitress, I am finally a professor. Sometimes I grumble and get going
> about
> how limited the folks writing are these days--stuck in academic jobs,
> never
> had a real job, so the only thing they know is academia. Then I start
> growling about how I will never do that, how could I forget all those
> years
> of marrying ketchups and whatnot. Then, I know that I want to read
> stories
> and poems about waitresses, and hell, I did that for years, why would
> I want
> to read about it? I usually decide that I am contrary. I want to read
> about
> what I am not doing. That's part of my escapist fix I get with
> reading. (As
> far as writing goes, I feel that choosing to write about my
> particular
> working-poor status for much of my life is a (political) necessity.
> AND I
> love Merwin and even James Merrill.)
>     I have problems with valorizing one kind of work or life over
> another. I
> remember when I first arrived a poor girl at Yale, two years were
> spent
> understanding "oh my god. I am poor! what an awful thing to go
> through." My
> next two years were about learning "jesus, we all got it tough one
> way or
> another." No buts about it. I don't think suffering contests are ever
> the
> way to go.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>

Readings: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/readings.html>

__________________________________________________
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From CobbCoStudioArts  Wed Feb 27 19:36:37 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 16:36:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] work
Message-ID: <20020228003637.2F8AD3ED3@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From odysseus34  Wed Feb 27 23:07:05 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 21:07:05 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem suggestions
References: <20020227170504.7F2D4145597@beach.silcom.com>
Message-ID: <3C7DACE5.E62ABEB7@earthlink.net>

I think the Nebula Science Fiction anthologies -- the Nebula is given annually
by critics in the field -- usually have a poetry award, and some of the poems
have been quite good.  I think Tom Disch also has some good science
fiction-type poems.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From Rsgwynn1  Thu Feb 28 00:50:35 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:50:35 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hommage a M. Hugo
Message-ID: <193.2fd7dee.29af1f2b@cs.com>

Boaz Asleep

Boaz lay down in weariness and pain;
He'd spent long hours laboring on his land
And smoothed his blanket with a dusty hand
To sleep among his heaps of garnered grain.

More fields of wheat stood ready to be mowed;
Though wealthy, he was not an unjust man.
Down his mill-race unclouded waters ran,
And in his forge no master's iron glowed. 

His beard was silver like a brook in spring.
His sheaves were thick but bundled without greed,
And when, at harvest, gleaners came in need,
He said, "Leave some ears for their gathering."

On righteous paths his feet were known to dwell,
And goodness cloaked him like a robe of white;
His grain poured forth for all whose hungry plight
Touched him, like water from a public well.

Honest with workers, loyal to his kin,
He honored thrift no less than charity;
The women watched old Boaz wistfully
And saw more in him that in younger men.

An old man sees his Source with clearer sight;
Soon exiting this world of changing days,
He holds eternity within his gaze.
A young man's eyes flash fire; an old man's, light.

*     *     *

So Boaz slept beneath the moon's faint glow.
Among the great stones massed outside his mill,
His reapers lay together, dark and still,
In that calm evening age on age ago.

Judges still ruled the tribes of Abram's blood.
The Hebrews, wandering in their land of birth,
Saw footprints left by giants in the earth
Soft and damp from the still-remembered flood.

*     *     *
Like Jacob, or like Judith, Boaz too
Lay fast asleep upon his humble bed;
The gates of heaven, far above his head,
Half opened as a dream came passing through.

And from his loins a great oak, flourishing,
Stirred Boaz in that dream, and, gazing down,
He saw a race ascending it; a king
Sang at the roots; a god died in its crown.

And Boaz murmured with a mournful sigh,
"How can it pass that I should bear this tree
When eighty years and more have fled from me?
I have no son, nor wife to get one by.

"Lord, the woman with whom I shared this bed
Has gone forever, sharing it with Thee;
Yet still we two remain together, she
Half-living in my thoughts, and I half-dead.

"Shall I conceive a nation sprung from me,
A tree arising from this ancient dust?
Only when I was younger could I trust
That day could wring from night such victory;

For now I tremble like a winter bough;
Alone and widowed, I am dry and old,
And as night falls I bend against the cold
As to the trough the plow-ox dips his brow."

So Boaz raged. The cedar does not feel
The rose that clings to it; his dream was sweet
Yet painful to him, yet it was so real
He did not sense the woman at his feet.

*     *     *

For while he slept there, Ruth, the Moabite,
Laid herself at his feet with naked breast,
Hoping he would not wholly waken, lest
He find her there ashamed in the pale light.

But Boaz never knew that she was there,
Nor did Ruth know what God required of her.
The breath of night caused asphodels to stir,
And all Galgala teemed with perfumed air.

The night grew nuptial, august and sublime.
An angel watched them, quietly hovering
Above their bed with barely beating wing;
Blue shadows crossed their eyes from time to time.

The breath of Boaz softened like the tones
Sung by the water when it flows across
A gentle bed of pebbles thick with moss
While lilies bloom among the hillside stones.

So Boaz slept, and Ruth awakened first
To drowsy sheep-bells tinkling far way;


From hruggier  Thu Feb 28 12:40:03 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:40:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem suggestions
References: <200202270206.g1R26DB39850@mx13.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3C7E6B73.C8AAC57B@localnet.com>

This may tickle someone's memory (I've only got the sense of it left):

    a poem where someone took the cure for TB back in time
    and Keats lived

If no one remembers I'll rewirte the poem.

David Graham wrote:

> Here's a somewhat odd query.  For a class excercise, I'm looking for brief
> poems that suspend one of more of the laws of nature:  you know, gravity,
> time, the usual suspects.  Sci-fi poems, really:  in which people fly, turn
> invisible, travel backwards in time, possess X-Ray vision,  grow to huge
> dimensions; or in which animals talk; etc.. . . .
>
> Suggestions for example poems highly welcome.  At the moment I'm looking
> mainly for contemporary examples, so don't suggest that talking serpent from
> *Paradise Lost*.
>
> David Graham
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From snospx  Thu Feb 28 12:43:26 2002
From: snospx (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:43:26 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #682 - 9 msgs
In-Reply-To: <200202281701.g1SH18Z04833@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020228094326.007c6920@snowcrest.net>

At 12:01 PM 2/28/02 -0500, Dr. Sam wrote:
>   9. Hommage a M. Hugo (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)

thanks to RS G -- wow: you GO, Hugo!

b.



From hruggier  Thu Feb 28 13:00:29 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:00:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poem Suggestions
References: <20020227.122449.-250233.0.daisyf1@juno.com>
Message-ID: <3C7E703D.6414A03D@localnet.com>

Hi,

Just wanted to say that Judy Kerman is in the Dominican Republic on a
Fulbright this semester but you can reach her at her regular email:
kerman at svsu.edu

Mayapple also published David Lunde who did some pretty weird stuff in the
scifi area.

Helen Ruggieri



Daisy Fried wrote:

>  David--Do you know Albert Goldbarth's _Marriage and Other Science
> Fictions__? It should be a goldmine for this although admittedly brevity
> isn't usually Goldbarth's thing. The very first poem of the book, "Mars,"
> is short, and below...Also, my pal Don Riggs, a Philly poet and smart
> guy, edited along with one Judith Kerman a book called _Uncommonplaces:
> Poems of the Fantastic_ [Mayapple Press]--I don't know how easy it would
> be to get hold of this quickly but I can give you Don's e-mail if you're
> interested (backchannel me) and he might be able to expedite things.
> Anyhow, here's that Goldbarth, which is fully italicized in the original:
>
> Mars
>
> Outside of town, near midnight,
> I can always find that special point
> on my dial where two far stations hit
> congruently, so hot jazz
> and a fundamentalist preacher say their
> passions at once. I think of Mars
>
> and what it must be like to live
> below two moons. In books I read
> as a teenager, someone always adventured out
> of Marsport, over those crimson dunes, with double
> the dose of high romance I ever expected
> --although I've  heard a woman and some
>
> inner djinn of my own call to me simultaneously,
> away from each other. Where's the point
> in a rabbi where a wife and a God
> both bed down? Isn't this what we call
> science fiction?--someone
> who can see by two lights.
>
> Cheers,
> Daisy
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Thu Feb 28 12:51:10 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:51:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Pablo Neruda Prize
Message-ID: <43.753642b.29afc80e@aol.com>

Dear Writer,

It?s time for the Nimrod/Hardman Awards, two annual awards given by
Nimrod International Journal, and we are asking you to enter.  The
Katherine Anne Porter Prize for Fiction and The Pablo Neruda Prize for
Poetry offer first prizes of $2000.00 and second prizes of $1000.00,
along with publication of the winning stories and poems. Past winners
include Kate Small, Diane Glancy, Steve Lautermilch, Ellen Bass, Felcia
Ward, Ruth Schwartz, and Sarah Flygare.  Past judges for the Awards
include Marvin Bell, Mark Doty, Janette Turner Hospital, Stanley Kunitz,
W. S. Merwin, Pattiann Rogers, William Stafford, and John Edgar Wideman.

I have included the Awards rules in this e-mail.  Please contact us if
you have any questions, or visit our website: www.utulsa.edu/nimrod.  We
hope to see your submission soon!

Eilis O?Neal
Associate Editor
Nimrod International Journal



The 24th Nimrod/Hardman Awards
The Katherine Anne Porter Prize for Fiction &
The Pablo Neruda Prize for Poetry

FIRST PLACE: $2,000 AND PUBLICATION
SECOND PLACE: $1,000 AND PUBLICATION

Contest Rules
Contest Begins: JANUARY 1, 2002

Postmark Deadline: APRIL 30, 2002

Poetry: 1,900 words maximum, 500 words minimum.

Fiction: 7,500 words maximum.

No previously published works or works accepted for publication
elsewhere.  Author's name must not appear on the manuscript.  Include a
cover sheet containing major title and subtitles, author's name, full
address, phone & fax numbers.  "Contest Entry" should be clearly
indicated on both the outer envelope and the cover sheet.  Manuscripts
will not be returned.  Nimrod retains the right to publish any
submission.  Include SASE for results only.  If no SASE is sent, no
contest results will be sent; however, the results will be posted on
Nimrod?s Web site.

Entry/Subscription Fee: $20 includes both entry free & a one-year
subscription (two issues).  Each entry must each be accompanied by a $20
fee.  Make checks payable to:

NIMROD
Literary Contest--Fiction or Poetry
The University of Tulsa, 600 S. College
Tulsa, OK  74104









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From Arielpf123  Thu Feb 28 13:13:38 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:13:38 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #682 - 9 msgs
Message-ID: <141.a409c6d.29afcd52@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/28/02 12:43:07 PM, snospx at silcom.com writes:

<< thanks to RS G -- wow: you GO, Hugo! >>

and if this is RsG's translation (I'm assuming it is?)...I like it much 
better than the other translation I've read ....so you go too Gwynn

patf



From thebobcooperfor  Thu Feb 28 16:01:01 2002
From: thebobcooperfor (bob cooper)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:01:01 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem suggestions
Message-ID: <F128vKhBxT18j7nqqKg000017ce@hotmail.com>

David,
if y can check out Edwin Morgan, (a canny Scot, I think well published by 
Carcanet in the UK, but Im not sure who re-publishhes or distributes in the 
US), who's got both
a fine Sci Fi poem called First Men On Mercury
(needs two students to read it aloud to each other!) a hoot!
and an animal poem:
The Loch Ness Monster's Song
(which y can read y sen! I've heard Morgan read it... it's so sad!
Bob


>David Graham wrote:
>
> > Here's a somewhat odd query.  For a class excercise, I'm looking for 
>brief
> > poems that suspend one of more of the laws of nature:  you know, 
>gravity,
> > time, the usual suspects.  Sci-fi poems, really:  in which people fly, 
>turn
> > invisible, travel backwards in time, possess X-Ray vision,  grow to huge
> > dimensions; or in which animals talk; etc.. . . .
> >
> > Suggestions for example poems highly welcome.  At the moment I'm looking
> > mainly for contemporary examples, so don't suggest that talking serpent 
>from
> > *Paradise Lost*.
> >
> > David Graham
> >
> > ========================================
> > David Graham
> > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> > Home Page:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> > Poetry Library:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> > ========================================
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




_________________________________________________________________
Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com




From halvard  Thu Feb 28 16:42:05 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:42:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Russell Edson, "The Prose Poem as a Beautiful Animal"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEEGELAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


The Prose Poem as a Beautiful Animal

   He had been writing a prose poem, and had succeeded in mating a
giraffe with an elephant. Scientists from all over the world came to see
the product. The body looked like an elephant's, but it had the neck of a
giraffe with a small elephant's head and a short trunk that wiggled like
a wet noodle.
   You have created a beautiful new animal, said one of the scientists.
   Do you really like it?
   Like it? cried the scientist, I adore it, and would love to have sex
with it that I might create another beautiful animal . . .

--Russell Edson


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From bobgrumman  Thu Feb 28 18:13:50 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:13:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Pablo Neruda Prize
References: <43.753642b.29afc80e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c1c0ad$961ad2a0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

Or send just $10 to The Runaway Spoon Press.  No
need to send a manuscript.  You will automatically win
a first prize of $10--the amount you saved by not sending
$20 to the Nimrod International Journal.

                                                       --Bob G.
  Dear Writer, 

  It?s time for the Nimrod/Hardman Awards, two annual awards given by 
  Nimrod International Journal, and we are asking you to enter.  The 
  Katherine Anne Porter Prize for Fiction and The Pablo Neruda Prize for 
  Poetry offer first prizes of $2000.00 and second prizes of $1000.00, 
  along with publication of the winning stories and poems. Past winners 
  include Kate Small, Diane Glancy, Steve Lautermilch, Ellen Bass, Felcia 
  Ward, Ruth Schwartz, and Sarah Flygare.  Past judges for the Awards 
  include Marvin Bell, Mark Doty, Janette Turner Hospital, Stanley Kunitz, 
  W. S. Merwin, Pattiann Rogers, William Stafford, and John Edgar Wideman. 

  I have included the Awards rules in this e-mail.  Please contact us if 
  you have any questions, or visit our website: www.utulsa.edu/nimrod.  We 
  hope to see your submission soon! 

  Eilis O?Neal 
  Associate Editor 
  Nimrod International Journal 



  The 24th Nimrod/Hardman Awards 
  The Katherine Anne Porter Prize for Fiction & 
  The Pablo Neruda Prize for Poetry 

  FIRST PLACE: $2,000 AND PUBLICATION 
  SECOND PLACE: $1,000 AND PUBLICATION 

  Contest Rules 
  Contest Begins: JANUARY 1, 2002 

  Postmark Deadline: APRIL 30, 2002 

  Poetry: 1,900 words maximum, 500 words minimum. 

  Fiction: 7,500 words maximum. 

  No previously published works or works accepted for publication 
  elsewhere.  Author's name must not appear on the manuscript.  Include a 
  cover sheet containing major title and subtitles, author's name, full 
  address, phone & fax numbers.  "Contest Entry" should be clearly 
  indicated on both the outer envelope and the cover sheet.  Manuscripts 
  will not be returned.  Nimrod retains the right to publish any 
  submission.  Include SASE for results only.  If no SASE is sent, no 
  contest results will be sent; however, the results will be posted on 
  Nimrod?s Web site. 

  Entry/Subscription Fee: $20 includes both entry free & a one-year 
  subscription (two issues).  Each entry must each be accompanied by a $20 
  fee.  Make checks payable to: 

  NIMROD 
  Literary Contest--Fiction or Poetry 
  The University of Tulsa, 600 S. College 
  Tulsa, OK  74104 









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From MillB  Thu Feb 28 18:28:21 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:28:21 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Pablo Neruda Prize
Message-ID: <190.30cde01.29b01715@aol.com>

Bob:

How sarcastic.  How funny.  How true. . .

How could you?

Mill



From bobgrumman  Thu Feb 28 20:53:58 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:53:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Pablo Neruda Prize
References: <190.30cde01.29b01715@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009101c1c0c3$f4c39a60$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

> Bob:
>
> How sarcastic.  How funny.  How true. . .
>
> How could you?
>
> Mill

Ooops, and I forgot I was going to be nice this year--
but, believe it or not, I started reading that announcement
with interest--and was surprised, then foolishly irked when I saw I had to
send twenty dollars with my entry!  I've seen dozens of ads like this one,
but still
get surprised by them!

                                               --Bob G.




From grahamd  Fri Feb  1 00:31:33 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 23:31:33 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  2 Merwin poems
Message-ID: <200202010530.g115UiA44842@mx6.mx.voyager.net>

I recall that Robert Frost used to brag that he could write a whole telegram
without needing punctuation marks (which cost extra)--such was his mastery
of syntax.  Merwin's similarly masterful, I agree.  And I find his poems
always read aloud nicely.  

He's a great translator, at least in terms of making the Englished versions
musical and lucid.  I must admit that my love of his work (once pretty
strong) has steadily dimished over time.  Not sure why, but I think it
sometimes has to do with a certain generic quality to his diction--if the
term Deep Image means anything anymore (and I have my doubts) it probably
refers to a certain generic or primal vocabulary.

So when I encounter "green fronds" or "the animals" in a Merwin lyric, I
often wonder why he didn't write "palm fronds" or "the Holsteins."  He often
seems to prefer to be generalized, which for me can produce a blurry effect.

Skating on the thin ice of taste. . . .

David Graham


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 2 Merwin poems
>Date: Thu, Jan 31, 2002, 5:18 PM
>

>In a message dated 1/30/02 3:22:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>gmcvay at patriot.net writes:
>
>> Oh God, someone showed him the "Robert Bly Deep Image Instant Poetry
>>  Generator."
>Actually Merwin holds the patent on deep image poetry, doesn't he? 
>Those new poems I forwarded from a knopf poetry list may not be his best..
>but book after book Merwin has stuck to his central themes; themes I'm 
>in sympathy with. And his treatment of those themes if often imaginative 
>in both a  philosophical and poetic sense. Also, he's writes amazingly 
>seamless poetry for someone who writes without the conventional 
>punctuation set. I'm wondering if any of you who know more about linguistics
>than I do can say whether or not there are things you just can't do in 
>English 
>without punctuation marks? 
>Finnegan



From JforJames  Fri Feb  1 08:45:49 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 08:45:49 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Seeking URL
Message-ID: <a4.206784f8.298bf60d@aol.com>

From:    Randolph Healy <healymac at GOFREE.INDIGO.IE>
Subject: Re: new book available online

yes indeed, a wonderful resource, with over a 100 poets.
It's at   http://www.thing.net/%7Egrist/l&d/lighthom.htm

best

Randolph

PS I'm working on a list of poetry links at www.wildhoneypress.com/links.htm
I'd be grateful if people could help me fill in the _many_ gaps by sending
urls bc.



From grahamd  Fri Feb  1 10:56:58 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:56:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Langston Hughes
Message-ID: <200202011555.g11FtPR05944@mx13.mx.voyager.net>

Let's raise a birthday toast to Langston Hughes, shall we?

Morning After

I was so sick last night I
Didn't hardly know my mind.
So sick last night I
Didn't know my mind.
I drunk some bad licker that
Almost made me blind.

Had a dream last night I
Thought I was in hell.
I drempt last night I
Thought I was in hell.
Woke up and looked around me--
Babe, your mouth was open like a well.

I said, Baby! Baby!
Please don't snore so loud.
Baby! Please!
Please don't snore so loud.
You jest a little bit o' woman but you
Sound like a great big crowd.
--Langston Hughes


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




From jdavis  Fri Feb  1 16:24:04 2002
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:24:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Geoffrey Chaucer, from "The 
 Knight's Tale"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020129191948.007fbc30@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202011621510.9716-100000@panix3.panix.com>

Barry,

I like Chaucer too, but usually it's his characters and his dialogue that
strike me as for the ages, and not his settings --so I'm curious, why this
passage? Is it for the purposes of comparing literary portraits of trees
in winter?

Jordan





From jdavis  Fri Feb  1 20:51:51 2002
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 20:51:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020131150250.007c64d0@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202012046450.1265-100000@panix3.panix.com>

Gosh! Barry! Sorry to hear you've been teaching from BAP 2001, as nice as
the poems of my friends in there are -- what's up, is it a poetry fashion
class? Next year's even better, Creeley's taken three from my magazine,
The Hat. But I have to say, Ceravolo's from another world, died in '88,
and I think you'd do better to find out more about him before you lump him
in with whichever professional obscurantists you find enervating. Chaucer
deserves better (and really, to be represented by a better passage, too).

Jordan




From grahamd  Fri Feb  1 23:50:09 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 22:50:09 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <200202020448.g124miR15052@mx15.mx.voyager.net>

I find the Best American Poetry books of uneven interest--duh!--depending
upon who's editing.  Doesn't everyone?  The only perfect one I edit in my
dreams.

But I honestly don't understand the sneer about "a poetry fashion class": 
does that refer to *all* BAP's, Jordan, or do you find Hass's volume in
particular to be unduly trendy (with due allowance for your friends'
presumably nonfashionable work)?  Or should one not teach from the BAP
series on principle?  If so, what principle would that be?  If not, what's
wrong with the Hass volume in particular?  (Possibly you may actually
*agree* with Barry about something!)

I'm teaching this term from Bly's 1999 BAP, myself.  As ever, I find Bly to
be a most interesting editor (more interesting to me these days than he is
as poet).  One of the things I like about his BAP is that he neither
excludes stodgy Big Name poets and journals (Milosz, Olds, Creeley, Wilbur;
New Yorker, AGNI, Hudson Review, etc.) nor the more obscure. 

Along with quite a few Usual Suspects, Bly introduces poems by folks like
William Kulik, Amy Holman, Revan Schendler, Timothy Young, Franco Pagnucci,
Diane Thiel; and selects from such journals as Water Stone, Solo, Cream City
Review, Fence, Rosebud, Tor House Newsletter, Hambone, Alkali Flats,
Blasts!, The Bitter Oleander, The Progressive, and Blue Sofa.  

If that's a fashion show, it's a pleasantly motley one.

David Graham


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: Jordan Davis <jdavis at panix.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!
>Date: Fri, Feb 1, 2002, 7:51 PM
>

>
>Gosh! Barry! Sorry to hear you've been teaching from BAP 2001, as nice as
>the poems of my friends in there are -- what's up, is it a poetry fashion
>class? Next year's even better, Creeley's taken three from my magazine,
>The Hat. But I have to say, Ceravolo's from another world, died in '88,
>and I think you'd do better to find out more about him before you lump him
>in with whichever professional obscurantists you find enervating. Chaucer
>deserves better (and really, to be represented by a better passage, too).
>
>Jordan
>



From snospx  Fri Feb  1 01:09:28 2002
From: snospx (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:09:28 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202012046450.1265-100000@panix3.panix.com>
References: <3.0.5.32.20020131150250.007c64d0@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020131220928.007e24b0@snowcrest.net>

At 08:51 PM 2/1/02 -0500, you wrote:
>
>(to be represented by a better passage, too).

send us one truer to your taste, Jordan

b



From snospx  Fri Feb  1 01:21:27 2002
From: snospx (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 22:21:27 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
In-Reply-To: <200202020448.g124miR15052@mx15.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020131222127.007e5100@snowcrest.net>

At 10:50 PM 2/1/02 -0600, you wrote:
>
>I'm teaching this term from Bly's 1999 BAP, myself. 

thanks to David for wiping at least one Jordan-sneer
from my woefully uneducated face (and also to say that,
over my years of using BAP, the Bly wins my vote, too,
as the least clanish, most ranging & engaging
of the lot -- I may go back to it, simply pass on the 2002).

B.



From bobgrumman  Sat Feb  2 06:42:19 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 06:42:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
References: <200202020448.g124miR15052@mx15.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <003f01c1abde$ac7ac160$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

> I find the Best American Poetry books of uneven interest--duh!--depending
> upon who's editing.  Doesn't everyone?  The only perfect one I edit in my
> dreams.


Just to voice my annoyance again let me go on record as saying that I
consider
ALL the Best American Poetry books the literary equivalent of painting
anthologies from 1970 that had no works by abstract expressionists (and
didn't so
much as mention them in their introductions), and had maybe one or two by
surrealists.  I couldn't edit a perfect Best American Poetry anthology even
in
my dreams, but the one I edited would cover at least twice the number of
significant schools of American poetry than the best of the ones so far
published.
Still, I would expect them to be the anthologies favored by academics and
would
not be bothered by them if it weren't for the egregiously stupid title
they're sold under.

                                                                            
                --Bob G.




From MillB  Sat Feb  2 10:24:03 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 10:24:03 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <8e.2252ea8e.298d5e93@aol.com>

Re: BAP

Maybe it's an addiction, but I buy them every year.  

I enjoy introduction and the "essay about poetry" from the guest editor.  I 
like seeing who "made" it, then I read the bios and descriptions of "why I 
wrote this poem" in the back.  

After that, I check out the list of journals.  Last, and definitely least, I 
read the poems--which for the most part are disappointments. I cannot explain 
why, but I've never found a poem or a cluster of poems that I thought were 
magical or innovative or fresh. . some nice work. . .and I personally would 
be honored to make it into BAP, but--as a whole--nothing to write home about.

Cheers,

Mill



From grahamd  Sat Feb  2 11:43:10 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 10:43:10 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <200202021642.g12GgNA75640@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

Just curious, Mill, where have you found a cluster of poems lately that you
thought *were* magical or innovative or fresh?  Let me know and I'm there.

I guess I don't look to the BAP's (or any anthologies, really) for such
epiphanies.  Some nice work's about all I expect.  If I get introduced to
some good poems or journals new to me, that's gravy.  And I don't think that
all BAP's are the same--as the rotating editorship would suggest.  

Somehow I doubt *Some Nice Poems 2002* would have quite the same sales
appeal. . . .  

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: MillB at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
>Date: Sat, Feb 2, 2002, 9:24 AM
>

>Re: BAP
>
>Maybe it's an addiction, but I buy them every year.  
>
>I enjoy introduction and the "essay about poetry" from the guest editor.  I 
>like seeing who "made" it, then I read the bios and descriptions of "why I 
>wrote this poem" in the back.  
>
>After that, I check out the list of journals.  Last, and definitely least, I 
>read the poems--which for the most part are disappointments. I cannot explain 
>why, but I've never found a poem or a cluster of poems that I thought were 
>magical or innovative or fresh. . some nice work. . .and I personally would 
>be honored to make it into BAP, but--as a whole--nothing to write home about.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mill
>_______________________________________________



From grahamd  Sat Feb  2 11:46:54 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 10:46:54 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <200202021645.g12GjE492888@mx5.mx.voyager.net>

Let the record show that the defendant agrees to stipulate that "Best
American Poetry" is an  egregiously stupid title.  Many of its editors have
made the same point in their introductions.

David Graham

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
>Date: Sat, Feb 2, 2002, 5:42 AM
>

>> I find the Best American Poetry books of uneven interest--duh!--depending
>> upon who's editing.  Doesn't everyone?  The only perfect one I edit in my
>> dreams.
>
>
>Just to voice my annoyance again let me go on record as saying that I
>consider
>ALL the Best American Poetry books the literary equivalent of painting
>anthologies from 1970 that had no works by abstract expressionists (and
>didn't so
>much as mention them in their introductions), and had maybe one or two by
>surrealists.  I couldn't edit a perfect Best American Poetry anthology even
>in
>my dreams, but the one I edited would cover at least twice the number of
>significant schools of American poetry than the best of the ones so far
>published.
>Still, I would expect them to be the anthologies favored by academics and
>would
>not be bothered by them if it weren't for the egregiously stupid title
>they're sold under.
>
>                                                                            
>                --Bob G.



From Thom424  Sat Feb  2 11:53:46 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 11:53:46 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <164.82178ef.298d739a@aol.com>

Let's steal from Garrison Keillor. For next year, how about SOME PRETTY GOOD 
AMERICAN POETRY 2002.


Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN



From halvard  Sat Feb  2 12:47:10 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 12:47:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:BAP!  POW!  BLY!
In-Reply-To: <164.82178ef.298d739a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEICEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Another one of those years when all poems are above average?

Hal           "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy."
                                  --Robert Ashley

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html

************************************************


Let's steal from Garrison Keillor. For next year, how about SOME PRETTY GOOD 
AMERICAN POETRY 2002.


Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Sat Feb  2 13:15:40 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 13:15:40 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <109.ccba8c0.298d86cc@aol.com>

A friend of mine did a little survey of all past BAPs
and guess who makes the most appearances?
Since there's no prize I'll just tell you--Donald Hall.
These anthologies, whatever their deficiencies, have
provoked some debate over the years...Bloom v. Rich
was a course a major dust-up. Glad to hear the Bly
getting credit for something instead of getting kicked 
once again.
Finnegan
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From bobgrumman  Sat Feb  2 14:39:20 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 14:39:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:BAP!  POW!  BLY!
References: <164.82178ef.298d739a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002501c1ac21$4fce4160$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

> Let's steal from Garrison Keillor. For next year, how about SOME PRETTY
GOOD
> AMERICAN POETRY 2002.
>
>
> Thom Tammaro

I like that--but to do it RILLY right, I suggest SOME *mostly* PRETTY GOOD
AMERICAN POETRY 2002--and maybe put a few items in it to provoke not a Bloom
versus Rich
(or Republican versus Democrat) debate, but a debate between differences of
substance.

                                                                    --Ol'
Mr. Sour Grapes Cynic, Grumman





From bobgrumman  Sat Feb  2 15:18:35 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2002 15:18:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
References: <8e.2252ea8e.298d5e93@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005d01c1ac26$cbf12dc0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

Now that David has agreed with me about the title of the BAPs,
I'll leave them, and maybe him, too, alone for the rest of the year--I hope.
(I'm feeling very sanguine: today's my birthday, and--according to my
newspaper--people born today "are dynamic and highly original.  You can be
very sophisticated and classy when you want to be.  Despite your
worldly experience, you identify strongly with your early cultural
beginnings.  You attempt great feats and make them look effortless.  The
year ahead is one of the most powerful years you will have had in more than
a decade.  Power and wealth come to you.")  Actually, I'm only looking for
reasonable recognition--which looks like I may be close to getting, but as
a visual artist rather than as a poet.

Oh, and David, thanks for listing Comprepoetica.  Eventually, I hope to list
poetry sites at mine, too--and will return the favor.

                                                                            
    --Bob G.





From grahamd  Sat Feb  2 22:10:34 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2002 21:10:34 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Message-ID: <200202030309.g13396W15809@mx8.mx.voyager.net>

This reminds me of the interesting factoid I picked up in Jed Rasula's
*American Poetry Wax Museum*--that the most frequently anthologized poet
during the period 1950-1994 was (can anyone guess?) .  .  .   Richard
Wilbur.

He's thus ahead of Lowell, Bishop, Ginsberg, Roethke, and Merwin, his
closest competitors--and way ahead of Creeley, Berryman, Snyder, Plath,
Ashbery, Kinnell, Levertov, Sexton, Merrill, et al.  

As for Bly, David Lehman's blurb on his 1997 *Morning Poems* ("a sensational
collection--[his] best in many years") was enough to cause me finally to
give it a look.  I think Lehman's right.  If you never liked Bly, you won't
like this, of course.  But if you once did, and had been disappointed by
much of his work in the 1980s and 1990s, it's well worth hunting up.

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] BAP!  POW!  BLY!
Date: Sat, Feb 2, 2002, 12:15 PM


A friend of mine did a little survey of all past BAPs 
and guess who makes the most appearances? 
Since there's no prize I'll just tell you--Donald Hall. 
These anthologies, whatever their deficiencies, have 
provoked some debate over the years...Bloom v. Rich 
was a course a major dust-up. Glad to hear the Bly 
getting credit for something instead of getting kicked 
once again. 
Finnegan 
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From jdavis  Sun Feb  3 07:56:39 2002
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 07:56:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] pain songs
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20020131222127.007e5100@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202030747410.3240-100000@panix1.panix.com>

David G -

As I mentioned backchannel, I think I was out of line when I snapped at
the Best American Poetry series. Having trained my eyes on the fine print
of the Times' sports pages and the World Almanac's annual lists of
disasters and awards, I am grateful that something like those annals
exists for this art of ours. I remember seeing and liking poems by a
number of list-readers in those books over the years. Once one gets past
the names one knows and likes, and skips over the names one knows and
dislikes, there are usually two or three dozen that fall into the
undecided category, and those have yielded some pleasure every year. David
and his assistant Mark Bibbins deserve better than snippy comments about
fashion -- for their permissions work alone!

Jordan





From roger  Sun Feb  3 17:02:11 2002
From: roger (roger  day)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 22:02:11 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] The 12th Cambridge Conference of Contemporary Poetry
Message-ID: <013901c1acfe$6ecbb880$e6d8883e@BYRON>

will take place in Cambridge, UK, over 3 days, from the 26th to 28th April 2002. The poets confirmed thus far are posted on the website - http://www.cccp-online.org/

A schedule will be posted on the website and new-poetry nearer the time.

Apologies to those who will receive this more than once.

Roger.






From MillB  Sun Feb  3 18:02:54 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:02:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top Ten
Message-ID: <82.1704ec63.298f1b9e@aol.com>

Greetings:

Here's a new thread.  Would anyone care to comment on which poetry journals 
are well-edited? influential?  The good "reads" in the literary world?  The 
best "credits"?

Cheers,

Mill



From david.bircumshaw  Sun Feb  3 15:53:04 2002
From: david.bircumshaw (david.bircumshaw)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 20:53:04 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Masthead
Message-ID: <01da01c1acf4$c73017a0$8bf4a8c0@netserver>

David Bircumshaw
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alison Croggon" <acroggon at bigpond.com>
To: "david.bircumshaw" <david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:32 PM
Subject: Masthead


Announcing Masthead No. 5 - now up at

http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/

Poetry selections:  RANDOLPH HEALY, ELIZABETH JAMES, PIERRE JORIS, 
TREVOR JOYCE, JACINTA LE PLASTRIER, SOPHIE LEVY, ALAN SONDHEIM, 
HARRIET ZINNES

Theatre texts: DAVID BIRCUMSHAW and MARGARET CAMERON

Essays: SOPHIE LEVY on innovative lyric poetry by women, JACINTA LE 
PLASTRIER on gender, JOHN KINSELLA on bioethics, RICHARD TOOP on the 
controversy around US composer John Adams

Interviews: SLAWOMIR MROZEK by ARNI IBSEN and ABDELWAHAB MEDDEB by 
FRANK BERBERICH, translated by PIERRE JORIS

Photographs:  JACQUELINE MITELMAN

********

ISLAM AND ITS DISCONTENTS

Interview of Tunisian writer Abdelwabab Meddeb by Frank Berberich, 
translated by Pierre Joris

"The one who claimed superiority or at least equality cannot grasp 
the process that has led him to such weakness when faced with the 
century-old opposite, enemy or adversary. ... Nietzsche himself 
thought that the Islamic subject was a subject that belonged much 
more to aristocratic morality, the morality of affirmation, which 
glorifies the one who gives without trying to receive; while the 
nature of resentment is to be in the position of the one who receives 
but who does not have the means to give, the one who is not 
affirmative. Thus the Islamic subject is no longer the man of the 
"yes" that illuminates the world and creates a naturally hegemonic 
being; from sovereign being he has become the man of the "no", the 
one who refuses, who is no longer active but only re-active."


NO ONE BELIEVES PLAYS:  AN INTERVIEW WITH SLAWOMIR MROZEK, by Arni Ibsen

"I don't see myself in a context at all because I don't construct my 
ego or my self-image. Absolutely not. I know that sounds untrue 
because writers usually construct themselves very much in a literary 
way, but that's part of the writer's energy. I don't do that. It's an 
uninteresting part of the writer's life."


BONE: A MONOLOGUE FOR TWO, by David Bircumshaw

"I have often thought, Bone, of how you would survive without my 
assistance. For I am a kindly man, Bone. I recall well how I rescued 
you that day, when I used to walk, the last time I walked, when you 
were blindly standing by the kerb, pitifully incapable of crossing.  
We cannot all cross that road, Bone.  I, of course, have no need to 
now. But you, Bone? No, not you."


KNOWLEDGE AND MELANCHOLY: AN AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL FICTION, by Margaret Cameron

"How do you think I have lived? You will not grant me autonomy. 
Inert with depression, you insult me. I try to save this house. Oh 
the persistent unhappy demands of my life! Anyone would consider 
escape. Your instability compromises me. I am afraid of you. In your 
house, my 'landlord', I am subject to you. I call witness: be my 
guard! I am speaking of 'safe houses'. I cannot let this go 
unattended. Your support is getting thin. I ration food. Your visits 
brief as Christmas leave me poor. I savour luxuries you leave 
everything breaking. You make me cry poor. "


ARE WE SPEAKING (OF) "THE NATURAL LANGUAGE OF MEN"? ANNE CARSON, 
KATHLEEN FRASER, GRACE LAKE: INNOVATING LYRIC POETRY, by Sophie Levy

"In a sense, claiming the first person pronoun, as lyric does, is 
always a mistake, as the poem works to throw off its disembodied 'I'. 
This is especially striking in the work of experimental women writers 
like Fraser, who knows that it is as hard to get 'I' into the 
sentence as 'she,' when the 'I,' like Echo, is a She. Natural 
language - the image in the water - is always shifting, depending on 
the perspective from which it is seen. Sometimes the lyric 'I' has to 
be disembodied in order to access ways of speaking of who we think we 
are."


THE CASE FOR CONTROL, by Richard Toop

"Perhaps the most spectacular contribution to 'The Death of 
Klinghoffer' debate came from an academic, Prof. Richard Taruskin, of 
the University of California at Berkeley. Taruskin is, by general 
consent, one of America's leading musicologists, and probably the 
greatest living authority on Russian music. He is also known as a 
robust controversialist. On December 9 2001, the New York Times 
published a near 3000-word essay of his, entitled 'Music's Dangers 
and the Case for Control'; in terms of setting the tone of future 
arts discourse in America, it may prove to be as significant as 
anything else he has written."


PLAGUES AND BIOETHICS, by John Kinsella

"Quarantine isn't just about keeping diseases out, protecting a 
specific geography from physical contamination, but also about the 
preservation of "home" values. It is about a mental and spiritual 
"purity"."


ART AND GENDER: NOTES TOWARDS A POETIC, by Jacinta le Plastrier

"...the issue of gender - the nature of sexual and gender 
separateness - is both too coarse and too polite for poetry - and, by 
extension, in the context of this discussion, art.

"Too coarse, because poetry sings into being, which lives in the 
mouth of life, in the mouth of death; a large mouth, too large for 
such coarseness. Too polite, because poetry sings into being... a 
mouth so large it simply annihilates such convention and restraint."

Masthead
arts, culture and politics

http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/





From grahamd  Sun Feb  3 21:45:57 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 20:45:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top Ten
Message-ID: <200202040244.g142isc86820@mx10.mx.voyager.net>

I'm fond of *Parnassus:  Poetry in Review*.  They do publish poems, and I've
enjoyed a lot of them; but of course the real draw is the prose.  Some of
the best reviews around--often long and meaty, and never mere puff jobs. 
The current issue has a very good essay by Lloyd Schwartz on an anthology of
popular song lyrics; a piece by Jon Volkmer on A. E. Housman; Vendler on
Dickinson; and reviews of James Merrill, John Montague, Theodore Enslin,
Constance Hunting, Irving Feldman, and others; plus a feature on Mallarme.  

Perhaps best of all, it's not a monthly or quarterly.  I can finish reading
each issue before the next one arrives.

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: MillB at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Top Ten
>Date: Sun, Feb 3, 2002, 5:02 PM
>

>Greetings:
>
>Here's a new thread.  Would anyone care to comment on which poetry journals 
>are well-edited? influential?  The good "reads" in the literary world?  The 
>best "credits"?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Mill



From j-mccann1  Tue Feb  5 13:36:31 2002
From: j-mccann1 (Janet McCann)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 12:36:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <3a.11097088.27c2978b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020205123631.0092c1b0@neo.tamu.edu>

Is this group still going?  Let me know; I will rejoin or whatever if it is.




From GrahamD  Tue Feb  5 14:25:28 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:25:28 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86CE3@mail.ripon.edu>

Ummm, Janet, is *what *group still going?  You mean the New-Poetry list?
(Or is there some sub-group called "Qualifications" that I don't know about?
Probably because I'm unqualified. . . .)

Anyway, if you mean the NewPo list, yes, it is going, and you just posted to
it.  Check out the archives if you're interested in catching up with recent
conversations:

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

We've been known to experience lulls, and perhaps you subscribed during one
of them?

David Graham

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================

> ----------
> From: 	Janet McCann
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, February 5, 2002 12:36 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
> 
> Is this group still going?  Let me know; I will rejoin or whatever if it
> is.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From JforJames  Tue Feb  5 19:24:53 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:24:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Secret Valentine
Message-ID: <18c.2e09981.2991d1d5@aol.com>

Read any good love poems lately?
---
Reply-to:? ? wwnorton-feedback-11 at lb.bcentral.com
To:? ? JforJames at aol.com (List Member)

http://www.nortonpoets.com

-----------
Looking for a Valentine's Day gift? Why not five days of love poetry?
Reply to this email with your beloved's email address* and we'll deliver a 
daily love poem, February 11-15

*Privacy strictly respected. Addresses will be used only to mail your gift. 

------------

**Norton Poets Online presents**
New this month: Shadow of Heaven by Ellen Bryant Voigt

Ireland's Love Poems, edited by A. Norman Jeffares

Poetry readings near you: Visit our author appearances page to find out which 
poets are reading in your neighborhood.

**Highlights coming this April**
New collections from Linda Pastan and Gerald Stern
Stanley Kunitz's Collected Poems in paperback
A first novel by poet James Lasdun

**Poem of the Month: "Dooryard Flower by Ellen Bryant Voigt**

Dooryard Flower

Because you are sick I want to bring you flowers,
flowers from the landscape that you love --
because it is your birthday and you're sick
I want to bring the outdoors inside,
the natural and the wild, picked by hand,
but nothing is blooming here but daffodils,
archipelagic in the short green
early grass, erupted
bulbs planted decades before we came,
the edge of where a garden once was kept
extended now in a string of islands I straddle
as in a fairy tale, harvesting,
not taking the single blossom from a clump
but thinning where they're thickest, tall-stemmed
from the mother patch, dwarf to the west, most
fully opened, a loosened whorl,
one with a pale spider luffing her thread,
one with a slow beetle chewing the lip, a few
with what's almost a lion's mane,
and because there is a shadow on your lungs, your liver,
and elsewhere, hidden,
some of those with delicate green
streaks in the clown's ruff (corolla --
actually made from adapted leaves), and more
right this moment starting to unfold, I've gathered
my two fists full, I carry them like a bride,
I am bringing you the only glorious thing
in the yards and fields between my house and yours,
none of the tulips budded yet, the lilac
a sheaf of sticks, the apple trees
withheld, the birch unleaved --
it could still be winter here, were it not
for green dotted with gold, but you won't wait
for dogtoothed violets, trillium under the pines,
and who could bear azaleas, dogwood, early profuse rose
of somewhere else when you're assaulted here, early May,
not any calm narcissus, orange corona
on scalloped white, not even it's slender stalk
in a fountain of leaves, no stiff cornets of the honest
jonquils, gendered parts upthrust in brass and cream:
just this common flash in anyone's yard, 
scrambled cluster of petals
crayon-yellow, as in a child's crawing of the sun,
I'm bringing you a sun, a children's choir, host
of transient voices, first bright
splash in the gray exhausted world, a feast
of the dooryard flower we call butter-and-egg. 

(c) 2002 by Ellen Bryant Voigt



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From grahamd  Wed Feb  6 00:37:57 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 23:37:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Second Looks
Message-ID: <200202060537.g165bA088417@mx11.mx.voyager.net>

Poetry Daily (http://www.poems.com/news.htm ) has a very nice article up now
by Michael Hoffman about James Schuyler.   It's a lucid and perceptive
appreciation that *almost* makes me think I could like Schuyler's work if I
tried harder.  It's from the London Review of Books:

 http://www.lrb.co.uk/v24/n03/hofm2403.htm 

But Hoffman's piece is also about how we can offer stiff resistance to poets
who later win us over.

Here's how he begins his essay:

"Not first sight, often enough, but a second look - it is a mysterious thing
with poetry that it finds its own moment. The poets that have meant most to
me --Lowell, Bishop, Schuyler --all, as it were, were rudely kept waiting by
me. I had their books, or I already knew some poems of theirs, but there was
no spark of transference. Then it happened, and our tepid prehistory was,
quite literally, forgotten beyond a lingering embarrassment at my own callow
unresponsiveness. It was as though they had always been with me, and I found
it difficult, conversely, to remember our first encounter."

This seems to beg for thread-spinning.  Who are the poets you now love that
you resisted initially?  How and why were you won over?

David Graham


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




From wasanthony  Wed Feb  6 07:20:16 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 04:20:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] attn: Anthony Robinson
Message-ID: <20020206122016.50814.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com>

Sorry to have to use the list this way, but there are gremlins afoot. 
Tony, I opened my earthlink mail this morning and saw that I had a
message from you.  Never got to it as my connection went down, but when
I was able to get back in, your message, as well as others, was not
there.  Vanished.  Gone. Not even in the trash.

Could you please resend.  You might also send to this Yahoo address
just in case.

- Jim

=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From rlong  Wed Feb  6 09:51:22 2002
From: rlong (Richard Long)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 08:51:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Chapbook at 2River
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206085037.01c20c08@pop3.slu.edu>

All,

2River today released FIRST WOMAN, a chapbook by Katja, in which the 
narrator experiences the loss of innocence, then discovers the surprise and 
disorder of being alive.

Katja is a neurologist, wife, and mother, with poems in several little 
magazines.

FIRST WOMAN, with art by Margot McGowan, is the 12th addition to the 2River 
Chapbook Series.

Richard Long

======
2River
rlong at 2River.org
http://www.2River.org




From halvard  Wed Feb  6 10:11:13 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 10:11:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: David Shapiro, "Photo Veritable"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOELPEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Photo Veritable

Clouds cover the earth
Passengers leave but the
clouds remain. The passengers
would like to nestle and ride
in the cancerous breasts
of the sky. But the clouds
are willful and shout as
they fly: "Dirigent, dirigent
dirigent and wealthy." You will live
like a god and like it, too.

--David Shapiro


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From tadrichards  Wed Feb  6 11:26:26 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:26:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: David Shapiro, "Photo Veritable"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOELPEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <008101c1af2b$06d71ce0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

I like this one -- it moves, and it surprises.




Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:11 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: David Shapiro, "Photo Veritable"


> 
> Photo Veritable
> 
> Clouds cover the earth
> Passengers leave but the
> clouds remain. The passengers
> would like to nestle and ride
> in the cancerous breasts
> of the sky. But the clouds
> are willful and shout as
> they fly: "Dirigent, dirigent
> dirigent and wealthy." You will live
> like a god and like it, too.
> 
> --David Shapiro
> 
> 
> Hal
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Thu Feb  7 10:43:27 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2002 10:43:27 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poet of the people
Message-ID: <106.ccceccd.2993fa9f@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/5/02 12:30:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
gudding at olemiss.edu writes:

> Subj:  Fwd: Poet of the people
>  Date:    2/5/02 12:30:05 AM Eastern Standard Time
>  From:    gudding at olemiss.edu (Gudding)
>  Sender:  new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  To:  new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>  
>  
>  >Date:         Mon, 4 Feb 2002 19:40:08 -0500
>  >Reply-To: Discussion of African-American Literature/Criticism
>  >               <AFAM-LIT at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
>  >Sender: Discussion of African-American Literature/Criticism
>  >               <AFAM-LIT at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU>
>  >From: "Thomas, Lorenzo" <ThomasL at UHD.EDU>
>  >Subject:      Poet of the people
>  >To: AFAM-LIT at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU
>  >
>  >This Story has been sent to you by : ThomasL at uhd.edu
>  >
>  >'He always carried a smile," Luella Patterson, his Lawrence, Kan., 
>  >schoolmate, remembered years later. "He had smiles and just everybody 
>  >loved him."
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >Read the full story at the address below:
>  >
>  
><http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2002/02/02/magazine/RANT02.htm>http:
> //inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2002/02/02/magazine/RANT02.htm
>  >
>  >
>  >  Here is a wonderful birthday tribute to Langston Hughes!
>  >Lorenzo
>  >
>  >
>  >



From halvard  Fri Feb  8 00:27:41 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 00:27:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Swarm
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEENJEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Swarm

Shallow water acoustics
random mutants,
solar warning

and real-time monitors,
space weather
aeronomical response

models, socialism
was a reality-based
movement,

sophists walking
among revolutionists
meditating.


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From odysseus34  Thu Feb  7 23:39:18 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34 at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 21:39:18 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEENJEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C635661.706B8D27@earthlink.net>


                                Tamer and Hawk
                                 Thom Gunn

                                 I thought I was so tough,
                                 But gentled at your hands,
                                 Cannot be quick enough
                                 To fly for you and show
                                 That when I go I go
                                 At your commands.

                                 Even in flight above
                                 I am no longer free:
                                 You seeled me with your love,
                                 I am blind to other birds.
                                 The habit of your words
                                 Has hooded me.

                                 As formerly, I wheel
                                 I hover and I twist,
                                 But only want the feel,
                                 In my possessive thought,
                                 Of catcher and of caught
                                 Upon your wrist.

                                 You but half civilize,
                                 Taming me in this way.
                                 Through having only eyes
                                 For you I fear to lose,
                                 I lose to keep, and choose
                                 Tamer as prey.




From adead_poet  Fri Feb  8 04:57:37 2002
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 03:57:37 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn: "Tamer and Hawk"
Message-ID: <F39Dvn8GI6GfiFqL5Hm00000e12@hotmail.com>

thanks for sharing this. i'm reading gunn's collected poems, and i have to 
say, so far it is one of the books of poetry that i have enjoyed the most. 
it's such an enjoyable read. definitely in my top ten. i've read boss cupid, 
which i didn't like at all, but i knew i liked his work so i had to pick the 
collected poems. i think i'm adding gunn to my favorites list. if you 
haven't read it, you are missing out.

jason


>From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
>Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 21:39:18 -0700
>
>
>
>                                 Tamer and Hawk
>                                  Thom Gunn
>
>                                  I thought I was so tough,
>                                  But gentled at your hands,
>                                  Cannot be quick enough
>                                  To fly for you and show
>                                  That when I go I go
>                                  At your commands.
>
>                                  Even in flight above
>                                  I am no longer free:
>                                  You seeled me with your love,
>                                  I am blind to other birds.
>                                  The habit of your words
>                                  Has hooded me.
>
>                                  As formerly, I wheel
>                                  I hover and I twist,
>                                  But only want the feel,
>                                  In my possessive thought,
>                                  Of catcher and of caught
>                                  Upon your wrist.
>
>                                  You but half civilize,
>                                  Taming me in this way.
>                                  Through having only eyes
>                                  For you I fear to lose,
>                                  I lose to keep, and choose
>                                  Tamer as prey.
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com




From rloden  Fri Feb  8 22:14:05 2002
From: rloden (Rachel Loden)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 19:14:05 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
In-Reply-To: <3C635661.706B8D27@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c1b117$d61a5a60$03020140@default>

Wonder whether "Tamer and Hawk" was written partly in response to Robert
Duncan's "My Mother Would Be A Falconress." Gunn would certainly have
known it. Interesting to see the words in common, anyway--"hood,"
"wrist," "fly" of course. Here's the beginning of the Duncan (the rest
is in his SELECTED POEMS from New Directions):   


     My Mother Would Be A Falconress

     My mother would be a falconress,
     and I, her gay falcon treading her wrist,
     would fly to bring back
     from the blue of the sky to her, bleeding, a prize,
     where I dream in my little hood with many bells
     jangling when I'd turn my head.

     My mother would be a falconress,
     and she sends me as far as her will goes.
     She lets me ride to the end of her curb
     where I fall back in anguish.
     I dread that she will cast me away,
     for I fall, I mis-take, I fail in her mission.

     She would bring down the little birds.
     And I would bring down the little birds.
     When will she let me bring down the little birds,
     pierced from their flight with their necks broken,
     their heads like flowers limp from the stem?

     I tread my mother's wrist and would draw blood.
     Behind the little hood my eyes are hooded.
     I have gone back into my hooded silence,
     talking to myself and dropping off to sleep.

     For she has muffled my dreams in the hood she has made me,
     sewn round with bells, jangling when I move.
     She rides with her little falcon upon her wrist.
     She uses a barb that brings me to cower.
     She sends me abroad to try my wings
     and I come back to her. I would bring down
     the little birds to her
     I may not tear into, I must bring back perfectly.

     I tear at her wrist with my beak to draw blood,
     and her eye holds me, anguisht, terrifying.
     She draws a limit to my flight.
     Never beyond my sight, she says.

     She trains me to fetch and to limit myself in fetching.
     She rewards me with meat for my dinner.
     But I must never eat what she sends me to bring her.

     Yet it would have been beautiful, if she would have carried me,
     always, in a little hood with the bells ringing,
     at her wrist, and her riding
     to the great falcon hunt, and me
     flying up to the curb of my heart from her heart
     to bring down the skylark from the blue to her feet,
     straining, and then released for the flight.

     My mother would be a falconress,
     and I her gerfalcon, raised at her will,
     from her wrist sent flying, as if I were her own
     pride, as if her pride
     knew no limits, as if her mind
     sought in me flight beyond the horizon....

    
> 
>                                 Tamer and Hawk
>                                  Thom Gunn
> 
>                                  I thought I was so tough,
>                                  But gentled at your hands,
>                                  Cannot be quick enough
>                                  To fly for you and show
>                                  That when I go I go
>                                  At your commands.
> 
>                                  Even in flight above
>                                  I am no longer free:
>                                  You seeled me with your love,
>                                  I am blind to other birds.
>                                  The habit of your words
>                                  Has hooded me.
> 
>                                  As formerly, I wheel
>                                  I hover and I twist,
>                                  But only want the feel,
>                                  In my possessive thought,
>                                  Of catcher and of caught
>                                  Upon your wrist.
> 
>                                  You but half civilize,
>                                  Taming me in this way.
>                                  Through having only eyes
>                                  For you I fear to lose,
>                                  I lose to keep, and choose
>                                  Tamer as prey.


People that are really weird can get into sensitive 
positions and have a tremendous impact on history.
  --J. Danforth Quayle

Rachel Loden
http://www.thepomegranate.com/loden/hotel.html
email: rloden at concentric.net
 




From odysseus34  Sat Feb  9 00:02:01 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 22:02:01 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
References: <001b01c1b117$d61a5a60$03020140@default>
Message-ID: <3C64AD3F.68B1D394@earthlink.net>


Rachel Loden wrote:

> Wonder whether "Tamer and Hawk" was written partly in response to Robert
> Duncan's "My Mother Would Be A Falconress." Gunn would certainly have
> known it.

Dear Rachel,

What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
idea.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From halvard  Sat Feb  9 10:34:38 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 10:34:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
In-Reply-To: <3C64AD3F.68B1D394@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEOKEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Thom Gunn on Duncan--

             THE DUMP


              He died,  and I admired 
              the crisp vehemence 
              of a lifetime reduced to 
              half a foot of shelf space. 
              But others came to me saying, 
              we too loved him,  let us take you 
              to the place of our love. 
              So they showed me 
              everything,  everything--
              a cliff of notebooks 
              with every draft and erasure 
              of every poem he 
              published or rejected, 
              thatched already 
              with webs of annotation. 
              I went in further and saw 
              a hill of matchcovers 
              from every bar or restaurant 
              he'd ever entered.  Trucks 
              backed up constantly, 
              piled with papers, and awaited 
              by archivists with shovels; 
              forklifts bumped through 
              trough and valley 
              to adjust the spillage. 
              Here odors of rubbery sweat 
              intruded on the pervasive 
              smell of stale paper, 
              no doubt from the mound 
              of his collected sneakers. 
              I clambered up the highest 
              pile and found myself 
              looking across not history 
              but the vistas of a steaming 
              range of garbage 
              reaching to the coast itself.  Then 
              I lost my footing! and was 
              carried down on a soft 
              avalanche of letters,  paid bills, 
              sexual polaroids,  and notes 
              refusing invitations,  thanking 
              fans,  resisting scholars. 
              In nightmare I slid, 
              no ground to stop me,

              until I woke at last 
              where I had napped beside 
              the precious half foot.  Beyond that, 
              nothing,  nothing at all. 

--Thom Gunn

{    What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
{    Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
{    idea.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html





From grahamd  Sat Feb  9 11:13:51 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:13:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Magical Thinking
Message-ID: <200202091613.g19GDe173713@mx6.mx.voyager.net>

On Poetry Daily today, the title poem of sometime NewPoeteer Joe Duemer's
new book, *Magical Thinking*.

http://www.poems.com/


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




From grahamd  Sat Feb  9 11:41:52 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 10:41:52 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "The Dump"
Message-ID: <200202091641.g19Gfep90066@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

I'd never seen that Gunn poem before, Hal. Do you know whether it's
collected in a book?  

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
>Date: Sat, Feb 9, 2002, 9:34 AM
>

>Thom Gunn on Duncan--
>
>             THE DUMP
>
>
>              He died,  and I admired 
>              the crisp vehemence 
>              of a lifetime reduced to 
>              half a foot of shelf space. 
>              But others came to me saying, 
>              we too loved him,  let us take you 
>              to the place of our love. 
>              So they showed me 
>              everything,  everything--
>              a cliff of notebooks 
>              with every draft and erasure 
>              of every poem he 
>              published or rejected, 
>              thatched already 
>              with webs of annotation. 
>              I went in further and saw 
>              a hill of matchcovers 
>              from every bar or restaurant 
>              he'd ever entered.  Trucks 
>              backed up constantly, 
>              piled with papers, and awaited 
>              by archivists with shovels; 
>              forklifts bumped through 
>              trough and valley 
>              to adjust the spillage. 
>              Here odors of rubbery sweat 
>              intruded on the pervasive 
>              smell of stale paper, 
>              no doubt from the mound 
>              of his collected sneakers. 
>              I clambered up the highest 
>              pile and found myself 
>              looking across not history 
>              but the vistas of a steaming 
>              range of garbage 
>              reaching to the coast itself.  Then 
>              I lost my footing! and was 
>              carried down on a soft 
>              avalanche of letters,  paid bills, 
>              sexual polaroids,  and notes 
>              refusing invitations,  thanking 
>              fans,  resisting scholars. 
>              In nightmare I slid, 
>              no ground to stop me,
>
>              until I woke at last 
>              where I had napped beside 
>              the precious half foot.  Beyond that, 
>              nothing,  nothing at all. 
>
>--Thom Gunn
>
>{    What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
>{    Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
>{    idea.
>
>Hal
>
>Halvard Johnson
>===============
>email: halvard at earthlink.net
>website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard  Sat Feb  9 12:24:04 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:24:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "The Dump"
In-Reply-To: <200202091641.g19Gfep90066@mx12.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEONEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I'm not absolutely sure, David, but it might be
in *Boss Cupid*.

{    I'd never seen that Gunn poem before, Hal. Do you know whether it's
{    collected in a book?  
{    
{    David Graham

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html





From JforJames  Sat Feb  9 13:26:44 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:26:44 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Alain Bosquet poem
Message-ID: <136.8b3e6d6.2996c3e4@aol.com>

The recent discussion of Ceravolo reminded me of the
work of Alain Bosquet. Here's a love poem I always liked...
Finnegan
---

       Without Definition

       love
       that ocean for mad antelope
       love 
       that eye nailing my eye
       on a star too drunk
       love
       that valise where toucans sleep
       that look like us
       love 
       that sun that protests
       at being in exile under its own knees
       love oblivion
       and the famished words
       gnawing that tangerine
       our memory


Alain Bosquest
(translated from the French by Wallace Fowlie)
Selected Poems by Alain Bosquest (Ohio U. Press, 1972)
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From JforJames  Sat Feb  9 13:40:54 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 13:40:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Translating Self
Message-ID: <e.19e474d4.2996c736@aol.com>


> Norton Poets Online
> http://www.wwnorton.com
> ---------------
> 
> **New in the Poet's Workshop
> Translating Self: Stealing From Wang Wei, Kowtowing To Hughes, 
> Hooking Up With Keats, Undone By Donne
> by Marilyn Chin
> 
> "I truly believe in identity poems. At one point or another, an immigrant 
> poet must tell the audience where she came from. But even though "How I Got 
> That Name" is currently my most anthologized poem, it is the kind of poem I 
> could only write once. I must move on to find other vessels to tell my 
> story, which, since I am a Chinese American woman, is complicated. So I 
> love to take conventions from both the Eastern and Western side of my 
> literary heritage and remake them into my own image (voila, the mirror, 
> again!). The process is an ever-evolving one. My challenge as a poet is to 
> find interesting ways to tell my complex tale. . . ."
> 
> 


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From grahamd  Sat Feb  9 14:06:54 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 13:06:54 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Translating Self
Message-ID: <200202091905.g19J5GS77751@mx1.mx.voyager.net>

Pardon the recurring plug, but some might care to know that Marilyn Chin's
essay (linked below) comes from a certain recent essay anthology, one of
whose editors is Kate Sontag, and about which interested parties may learn
more at the Poetry Library link in my signature.  (Look for *After
Confession*.)  

"Identity poetics" is one of the recurrent topics in the anthology.

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
From: JforJames at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Translating Self
Date: Sat, Feb 9, 2002, 12:40 PM



Norton Poets Online 
http://www.wwnorton.com 
--------------- 

**New in the Poet's Workshop 
Translating Self: Stealing From Wang Wei, Kowtowing To Hughes, 
Hooking Up With Keats, Undone By Donne 
by Marilyn Chin 

"I truly believe in identity poems. At one point or another, an immigrant
poet must tell the audience where she came from. But even though "How I Got
That Name" is currently my most anthologized poem, it is the kind of poem I
could only write once. I must move on to find other vessels to tell my
story, which, since I am a Chinese American woman, is complicated. So I love
to take conventions from both the Eastern and Western side of my literary
heritage and remake them into my own image (voila, the mirror, again!). The
process is an ever-evolving one. My challenge as a poet is to find
interesting ways to tell my complex tale. . . ." 




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From rwilsnac  Sat Feb  9 16:43:01 2002
From: rwilsnac (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 13:43:01 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging and writing
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020209134113.00685828@medicine.nodak.edu>

Questions stimulated by Linda Pastan:

	Voices

Joan heard voices
and she burned for it.
Driving through the dark
I write poems.
Last night I drove through
a stop sign, pondering 
line breaks. 
When I explained
the policeman nodded,
then he gave me
a ticket.
Someone who knows told me
writers have fifteen years,
then comes repetition,
even madness.
Like Midas, I guess
everything we touch turns
to a poem ---
when the spell is on.
But think of the poet after that
touching the trees
he's always touched,
but this time nothing happens.
Picture him rushing from trunk
to trunk, bruising 
his hands on the rough bark.
Only five years left. 
Sometimes I bury
my poems in the garden,
saving them
for the cold days ahead.
One way or another
you burn for it.

	Linda Pastan, in **Carnival Evening**,
		Norton, 1998.
---------------------------

Judging from recent comments on this list about new
books by not-so-young poets (such as Bly), the burnout
does not afflict everyone. My impression is that Yeats
escaped this curse (though perhaps he did not feel so 
within himself). Perhaps it is a more common ailment 
among those of less than galactic creativity. But what 
do poets do when they experience the symptoms of a 
decline of inspiration, or when they fear its onset? 
Are there any patterns to be observed, or lessons to be 
learned? As a working scientist, I get off easy; it is 
not so hard to think of unanswered questions (if not 
ways to answer them). But for those who depend on finding 
swampfire or cello music in the woods, it must often be 
a more frightening concern...

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu

 





From Rsgwynn1  Sat Feb  9 14:57:36 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 14:57:36 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
Message-ID: <163.88fae04.2996d930@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/8/2002 11:59:58 PM Central Standard Time, 
odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes:


> 
> Dear Rachel,
> 
> What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
> Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
> idea.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 

Gunn has two essays on Duncan in Shelf Life, his book of prose from the 
Michigan series.
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From wasanthony  Sat Feb  9 15:06:38 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 12:06:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging and writing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020209134113.00685828@medicine.nodak.edu>
Message-ID: <20020209200638.13235.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com>

--- rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:

>  But what 
> do poets do when they experience the symptoms of a 
> decline of inspiration, or when they fear its onset? 
> Are there any patterns to be observed, or lessons to be 
> learned? As a working scientist, I get off easy; it is 
> not so hard to think of unanswered questions (if not 
> ways to answer them). But for those who depend on finding 
> swampfire or cello music in the woods, it must often be 
> a more frightening concern...

Thank you, thank you for supplying swampfire for my heart and cello
music for my ears.  I will send it to you when it's done - I've already
pre-heated the oven.

- Jim

=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From cstroffo  Sat Feb  9 15:15:57 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 12:15:57 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Alain Bosquet poem
References: <136.8b3e6d6.2996c3e4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C65837D.BD205D5C@earthlink.net>


Yeah, I remember really liking that book by Bosquest I had borrowed from

a friend in 1989. I haven't been able to find it since though; there was
some
book by New Directions perhaps also of him called "No Matter, No Fact"
(?)--
but it didn't seem as good as that Ohio one....

thanks for reminding me

Chris

JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> The recent discussion of Ceravolo reminded me of the
> work of Alain Bosquet. Here's a love poem I always liked...
> Finnegan
> ---
>
>       Without Definition
>
>       love
>       that ocean for mad antelope
>       love
>       that eye nailing my eye
>       on a star too drunk
>       love
>       that valise where toucans sleep
>       that look like us
>       love
>       that sun that protests
>       at being in exile under its own knees
>       love oblivion
>       and the famished words
>       gnawing that tangerine
>       our memory
>
>
> Alain Bosquest
> (translated from the French by Wallace Fowlie)
> Selected Poems by Alain Bosquest (Ohio U. Press, 1972)
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From ade3  Sat Feb  9 15:29:01 2002
From: ade3 (Andrew Epstein)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 15:29:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
Message-ID: <00f401c1b1a8$6ccd4ae0$8ee52344@cc296654-a.tharpe01.fl.comcast.net>

For more on Thom Gunn and Robert Duncan -- you might be interested in the
lead-off poem in Gunn's recent volume *Boss Cupid*, "Duncan," which is a
moving elegy to Duncan.   (Also, for the record, "Tamer and Hawk" is not in
Boss Cupid...)

There's also an excerpt from Gunn's critical writings on "My Mother Would Be
a Falconress" here:
http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/duncan/falcon.htm


Take care,
Andrew Epstein


-----Original Message-----
From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, February 09, 2002 1:01 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn: "Tamer and Hawk"


>
>
>Rachel Loden wrote:
>
>> Wonder whether "Tamer and Hawk" was written partly in response to Robert
>> Duncan's "My Mother Would Be A Falconress." Gunn would certainly have
>> known it.
>
>Dear Rachel,
>
>What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
>Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
>idea.
>
>Moira Russell
>Seattle, WA
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From trbell  Sat Feb  9 19:42:51 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:42:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging and writing
References: <20020209200638.13235.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <038d01c1b1cb$df2b0320$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

aging and illness are two life transitions that can be either negotiated or
not?  i think there are many poets who matured well and many who actually
began their careers at an advanced age?

tom bell

----- Original Message -----
From: "jcervantes" <wasanthony at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Aging and writing


>
> --- rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:
>
> >  But what
> > do poets do when they experience the symptoms of a
> > decline of inspiration, or when they fear its onset?
> > Are there any patterns to be observed, or lessons to be
> > learned? As a working scientist, I get off easy; it is
> > not so hard to think of unanswered questions (if not
> > ways to answer them). But for those who depend on finding
> > swampfire or cello music in the woods, it must often be
> > a more frightening concern...
>
> Thank you, thank you for supplying swampfire for my heart and cello
> music for my ears.  I will send it to you when it's done - I've already
> pre-heated the oven.
>
> - Jim
>
> =====
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
> Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
> Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
> Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
> http://greetings.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From grahamd  Sat Feb  9 15:47:07 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 14:47:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
Message-ID: <200202092045.g19KjIh69815@mx8.mx.voyager.net>

Gunn's "Tamer & Hawk" was collected in his *Fighting Terms* in 1954. 
Duncan's "My Mother Would be A Falconress" appears in *Bending the Bow*
(1968), though maybe it had an earlier printing somewhere.  

For those who are interested, I see from Amazon that "Dump" is indeed in
Gunn's *Boss Cupid*.  I also see that a reviewer has suggested some
"alternate titles" for this book:  "Boss Age, Boss Loss, Still Horny After
All These Years. . . ."  

Sounds like a must read.

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: "Andrew Epstein" <ade3 at columbia.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
>Date: Sat, Feb 9, 2002, 2:29 PM
>

>For more on Thom Gunn and Robert Duncan -- you might be interested in the
>lead-off poem in Gunn's recent volume *Boss Cupid*, "Duncan," which is a
>moving elegy to Duncan.   (Also, for the record, "Tamer and Hawk" is not in
>Boss Cupid...)
>
>There's also an excerpt from Gunn's critical writings on "My Mother Would Be
>a Falconress" here:
>http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poets/a_f/duncan/falcon.htm
>
>
>Take care,
>Andrew Epstein
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Date: Saturday, February 09, 2002 1:01 AM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn: "Tamer and Hawk"
>
>
>>
>>
>>Rachel Loden wrote:
>>
>>> Wonder whether "Tamer and Hawk" was written partly in response to Robert
>>> Duncan's "My Mother Would Be A Falconress." Gunn would certainly have
>>> known it.
>>
>>Dear Rachel,
>>
>>What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
>>Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
>>idea.
>>
>>Moira Russell
>>Seattle, WA



From rwilsnac  Sat Feb  9 18:34:43 2002
From: rwilsnac (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 15:34:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging and writing
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020209153439.00d127dc@medicine.nodak.edu>

At 12:06 PM 2/9/02 -0800, jcervantes wrote:
>
>--- rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:
>
>>  But what 
>> do poets do when they experience the symptoms of a 
>> decline of inspiration, or when they fear its onset? 
>> Are there any patterns to be observed, or lessons to be 
>> learned? As a working scientist, I get off easy; it is 
>> not so hard to think of unanswered questions (if not 
>> ways to answer them). But for those who depend on finding 
>> swampfire or cello music in the woods, it must often be 
>> a more frightening concern...
>
>Thank you, thank you for supplying swampfire for my heart and cello
>music for my ears.  I will send it to you when it's done - I've already
>pre-heated the oven.
>
>- Jim
>

Actually, Jim, when I dashed those words off too hastily,
I was thinking about the mental state of a male poet if he were
in the mood and spiritual condition better described by 
Lawrence Durrell:

A caf? is the last Museum and best,
To observe a great man in the middle
Of a collapse; but parts work still,
The crutches are incidental, adding variety.
Some injudicious pleasures will remain.
The sexual phosphorescence of youth is gone,
But here on naphtha-scented evenings still
He sits before the tulip of old wine,
In a red fez, by some sunken garden,
Watching for shooting-stars.

(from his Collected Poems, 1931-1974)

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu



From grahamd  Sat Feb  9 17:04:51 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 16:04:51 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Aging and writing
Message-ID: <200202092203.g19M3Le66449@mx14.mx.voyager.net>

We can all think readily of the usual examples of late-career flowering
(whatever "late") might mean.  Thomas Hardy, W B Yeats, Wallace Stevens, 
Stanley Kunitz, etc.  And now perhaps Czeslaw Milosz--not knowing the
Polish, I'm reluctant to assess the quality of his stupendous output in the
past two decades, though it certainly is voluminous.  

But isn't the incidence of truly great poetry written by the truly old
vanishingly small?  The list of poets who lost steam in various ways as they
aged seems rather lengthy:  Wordsworth, Whitman, Frost, Moore. . . .  

Interesting to speculate about Dickinson, had she survived to old age, but
even she lost considerable oomph after her astonishing flowering in the
1860s, didn't she?  

Others remain controversial:  did William Carlos Williams get better or
worse after 1950?  How about Robert Penn Warren's late work?  Or Lowell's?

Seems every new book that appears by a veteran poet claims it's the best
work yet, or at least among the best.  (Adrienne Rich's latest, for
instance, is so blurbed.)  And no doubt we all have to believe that that's
possible.  

But while I am happy for the recent work of poets like Rich and Levine, to
pick two examples out of a hat, does anyone seriously believe that they are
currently writing at peak form in their 70s?  

As for how I feel about all this, I confess I try not to dwell on it.  Hard
enough to write the next poem, and I'm not particularly concerned about my
place in literary history, since unless the poetry world rapidly comes to
its senses I probably won't have one.  

I wonder if this is more of a problem for poets who actually have audiences?
 You know, those who are able to publish every blurt and bit of ooze from
their journals, and who are told regularly How Great Thou Art. . . . 
Certainly this might explain some poems I've seen, from time to time, in The
New Yorker.

David Graham, closer to the foothills of age than of Parnassus
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


>---------------------------
>
>Judging from recent comments on this list about new
>books by not-so-young poets (such as Bly), the burnout
>does not afflict everyone. My impression is that Yeats
>escaped this curse (though perhaps he did not feel so 
>within himself). Perhaps it is a more common ailment 
>among those of less than galactic creativity. But what 
>do poets do when they experience the symptoms of a 
>decline of inspiration, or when they fear its onset? 
>Are there any patterns to be observed, or lessons to be 
>learned? As a working scientist, I get off easy; it is 
>not so hard to think of unanswered questions (if not 
>ways to answer them). But for those who depend on finding 
>swampfire or cello music in the woods, it must often be 
>a more frightening concern...
>
>Richard W. Wilsnack
>rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
>
> 



From odysseus34  Sat Feb  9 16:27:10 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 14:27:10 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
References: <200202092045.g19KjIh69815@mx8.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3C659427.BF8963EC@earthlink.net>


David Graham wrote:

> Gunn's "Tamer & Hawk" was collected in his *Fighting Terms* in 1954.
> Duncan's "My Mother Would be A Falconress" appears in *Bending the Bow*
> (1968), though maybe it had an earlier printing somewhere.
>
> For those who are interested, I see from Amazon that "Dump" is indeed in
> Gunn's *Boss Cupid*.  I also see that a reviewer has suggested some
> "alternate titles" for this book:  "Boss Age, Boss Loss, Still Horny After
> All These Years. . . ."

Thom Gunn is marvelous, isn't he?  Anyone who writes about motorcycles and black
leather in strict formal verse has my heart.  Seriously though, "The Man with
Night Sweats" is incredible stuff.  Highly recommended.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Sat Feb  9 16:36:12 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 14:36:12 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn: "Tamer and Hawk"
References: <F39Dvn8GI6GfiFqL5Hm00000e12@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C659640.898D7F4C@earthlink.net>

Thom Gunn is something, isn't he?  If you didn't like "Boss Cupid" you might
like "The Man with Night Sweats" -- which IMHO is the best Gunn book ever.
(Which would probably be disappointing for Mr. Gunn to hear as he is no doubt
planning on writing more books and all, but oh well.)

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

dead poet wrote:

> thanks for sharing this. i'm reading gunn's collected poems, and i have to
> say, so far it is one of the books of poetry that i have enjoyed the most.
> it's such an enjoyable read. definitely in my top ten. i've read boss cupid,
> which i didn't like at all, but i knew i liked his work so i had to pick the
> collected poems. i think i'm adding gunn to my favorites list. if you
> haven't read it, you are missing out.
>
> jason
>
> >From: odysseus34 at earthlink.net
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
> >Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 21:39:18 -0700
> >
> >
> >
> >                                 Tamer and Hawk
> >                                  Thom Gunn
> >
> >                                  I thought I was so tough,
> >                                  But gentled at your hands,
> >                                  Cannot be quick enough
> >                                  To fly for you and show
> >                                  That when I go I go
> >                                  At your commands.
> >
> >                                  Even in flight above
> >                                  I am no longer free:
> >                                  You seeled me with your love,
> >                                  I am blind to other birds.
> >                                  The habit of your words
> >                                  Has hooded me.
> >
> >                                  As formerly, I wheel
> >                                  I hover and I twist,
> >                                  But only want the feel,
> >                                  In my possessive thought,
> >                                  Of catcher and of caught
> >                                  Upon your wrist.
> >
> >                                  You but half civilize,
> >                                  Taming me in this way.
> >                                  Through having only eyes
> >                                  For you I fear to lose,
> >                                  I lose to keep, and choose
> >                                  Tamer as prey.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






From wasanthony  Sat Feb  9 19:16:04 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 16:16:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Aging and writing
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20020209153439.00d127dc@medicine.nodak.edu>
Message-ID: <20020210001604.54286.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com>

Well, I'm thinking of several things.  One, where the next
serendipitous impulse for a poem might come from - always on the
lookout for that.  Two, the difference between the biological and
chronological clock vs the creative clock, which aren't necessarily in
lock-step rhythm.  And, finally (as my comp students are wont to
write), wondering whether you intend the Durrell as a perspective from
an observer or a participant, which might be both in the same, but we
know what an observer's participation does to an experiment.

- Jim

--- rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:
> At 12:06 PM 2/9/02 -0800, jcervantes wrote:
> >
> >--- rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:
> >
> >>  But what 
> >> do poets do when they experience the symptoms of a 
> >> decline of inspiration, or when they fear its onset? 
> >> Are there any patterns to be observed, or lessons to be 
> >> learned? As a working scientist, I get off easy; it is 
> >> not so hard to think of unanswered questions (if not 
> >> ways to answer them). But for those who depend on finding 
> >> swampfire or cello music in the woods, it must often be 
> >> a more frightening concern...
> >
> >Thank you, thank you for supplying swampfire for my heart and cello
> >music for my ears.  I will send it to you when it's done - I've
> already
> >pre-heated the oven.
> >
> >- Jim
> >
> 
> Actually, Jim, when I dashed those words off too hastily,
> I was thinking about the mental state of a male poet if he were
> in the mood and spiritual condition better described by 
> Lawrence Durrell:
> 
> A caf? is the last Museum and best,
> To observe a great man in the middle
> Of a collapse; but parts work still,
> The crutches are incidental, adding variety.
> Some injudicious pleasures will remain.
> The sexual phosphorescence of youth is gone,
> But here on naphtha-scented evenings still
> He sits before the tulip of old wine,
> In a red fez, by some sunken garden,
> Watching for shooting-stars.
> 
> (from his Collected Poems, 1931-1974)
> 
> Richard W. Wilsnack
> rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From rloden  Sat Feb  9 21:09:43 2002
From: rloden (Rachel Loden)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 18:09:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
Message-ID: <001d01c1b1d8$02dbdc20$dd040140@default>

Moira wrote:
 
> Dear Rachel,
> 
> What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections 
> between Gunn and
> Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  

Huge webs of connections, I would think, as northern California poets
over decades and decades, but there's probably someone out there who can
fill in the details better than I can. Alan Golding still on this list?
Ron Silliman?

Would be fun to find Duncan's privately published _Poems from the
Margins of Thom Gunn's Moly_ (1972).

Rachel




From adead_poet  Sun Feb 10 05:16:41 2002
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 04:16:41 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn
Message-ID: <F110DLe3d4J95XBSbDu000018d4@hotmail.com>

well i haven't gotten to the man with night sweats section, but it has all 
been good so far. like i said, i'm really enjoying his collected poems. it's 
especially nice since i have to take a break from the best american poetry 
2001 and jorie graham's selected poems. i don't know why i keep reading 
those two books, maybe because i hope that something good will turn up, but 
no luck yet. still have quite a bit of gunn to go, and i look forward to it.

jason


>From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn: "Tamer and Hawk"
>Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 14:36:12 -0700
>
>Thom Gunn is something, isn't he?  If you didn't like "Boss Cupid" you 
>might
>like "The Man with Night Sweats" -- which IMHO is the best Gunn book ever.
>(Which would probably be disappointing for Mr. Gunn to hear as he is no 
>doubt
>planning on writing more books and all, but oh well.)
>
>Moira Russell
>Seattle, WA
>
>dead poet wrote:
>
> > thanks for sharing this. i'm reading gunn's collected poems, and i have 
>to
> > say, so far it is one of the books of poetry that i have enjoyed the 
>most.
> > it's such an enjoyable read. definitely in my top ten. i've read boss 
>cupid,
> > which i didn't like at all, but i knew i liked his work so i had to pick 
>the
> > collected poems. i think i'm adding gunn to my favorites list. if you
> > haven't read it, you are missing out.
> >
> > jason
> >


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com




From halvard  Sun Feb 10 11:58:19 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:58:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Brecht, "War Has Been Given a Bad Name"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEPIEJAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

War Has Been Given a Bad Name

I am told that the best people have begun saying 
How, from a moral point of view, the second World War
Fell below the standard of the First. The Wehrmacht
Allegedly deplores the methods by which the SS effected
The extermination of certain peoples. The Ruhr industrialists
Are said to regret the bloody manhunts
Which filled their mines and factories with slave workers. The 
                                                                             intellectuals
So I heard, condemn industry's demand for slave workers
Likewise their unfair treatment. Even the bishops
Dissociate themselves from this way of making war; in short the
                                                                                      feeling
Prevails in every quarter that the Nazis did the Fatherland
A lamentably bad turn, and that war
While in itself natural and necessary, has, thanks to the
Unduly uninhibited and positively inhuman
Way in which it was conducted on this occasion, been
Discredited for some time to come.

--Bertolt Brecht, tr. John Willett


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From Cadaly  Sun Feb 10 18:15:15 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:15:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
Message-ID: <11c.c246e43.29985903@aol.com>

there's a book -- kind of glaring the all maleness of it -- even Everson 
manages to mention women in his (male) archetype...

Bartlett, Lee
THE SUN IS BUT A MORNING STAR - STUDIES IN WEST COAST POETRY AND POETICS
Collection of essays focussing on the works of writers specifically 
identified with the San Francisco Renaissance - Kenneth Rexroth, William 
Everson, Robert Duncan, Gary Snyder, Michael McClure. Essays also on writers 
like Thom Gunn and Nathaniel Tarn, Michael Palmer and Ron Silliman, and the 
attraction of the western ethos, the relationship of West Coast poetry to 
other American poetry, poetic language, more.

Rdgs,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From rwilsnac  Sun Feb 10 22:32:28 2002
From: rwilsnac (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:32:28 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [New Poetry] aging and writing
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020210191601.00683c88@medicine.nodak.edu>

Dear Jim, David, et al.,

I was using the Durrell poem as a means to an end, to try to
think what it might feel like to realize that you are a long
way "over the hill," and that you cannot climb back. I think
that Durrell wants us to play detective or "profiler," to use
the information given to put yourself inside the man sitting
outside in the dark with his "tulip of old wine": could I
find myself there? would I do something like he is doing,
to deal with my sense of time not running out, but having
run past? 

The chronological and creative clocks are surely out of step: 
think of all the professional athletes who continue to play*** 
long after they should have retired. It's more than a desire
for continuing paychecks, and it afflicts more than the great 
ones. In any field, there are all those geniuses who push 
themselves to keep going year after year in the minor leagues
or other obscure places, hoping that they will be discovered 
before it is too late. They all keep trying to climb back up 
because that is the only way they know how to cope. Which is 
a sad solution, even if Camus would approve.

Regarding poetry more particularly, I have been wondering
what the good or brave alternatives are for poets who find
that like drivers on long empty highways at night, the 
serendipitous stimulus, the radio music amid all the static, 
gets harder and harder to find, so that they have to listen 
more and more strenuously and hoard every signal they can find. 
(Or like the gentleman in the sunken garden, watch for every 
shooting star.) Is there something that poets can do better 
than trying to write the way they used to write when it is 
long too late to do just that any more?

I went looking for other wiser thoughts about this, and
fairly soon I stumbled on someone's online discussion for
students about Yeats' "The Circus Animals' Desertion,"
written in the late 1930's (his 70's?), which begins, 

         I SOUGHT a theme and sought for it in vain,
            I sought it daily for six weeks or so.
         Maybe at last, being but a broken man,
            I must be satisfied with my heart, although
         Winter and summer till old age began
            My circus animals were all on show,
         Those stilted boys, that burnished chariot,
            Lion and woman and the Lord knows what.

         What can I but enumerate old themes?

My impression is that Yeats' solution was to turn his
problems of creativity into his poetry. Even in Sailing
to Byzantium. But maybe a better solution for mere-mortal
but no-longer-feeling creative poets is to put themselves 
less and less into themselves and more and more into the 
lives of other, very different people, if there is a way 
to build up one's empathic fitness (an emotional treadmill?) 
at an advanced stage of one's literary life. Much like the
person crossing the brick bridge, imagining the builder
kneeling, counting his bricks. 

For any better insight at this point I am dependent on the 
kindness of poets... 

...but feeling a little smug about my courage, since I'm
a little farther up into the foothills of age than David.

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu    

***P. S. Please don't anyone suggest that competitive athletics 
is not creative, if you have ever tried to judge where to throw 
the pass or where the ball if going to fly, and how you are going
to get yourself to the right place at the right time. It's
emphatically not just reflexes and training. Willie Mays running 
out from under his hat to catch that deep fly over his shoulder 
in the '54 series is a classic, enduring work of its own kind of 
art. That's one of the reasons why the poem that David shared 
about Mickey Mantle is go good.



From DICK  Sun Feb 10 21:07:48 2002
From: DICK (DICK at watson.ibm.com)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 02 21:07:48 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins (again)
Message-ID: <200202110213.g1B2DrK34190@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com>

Interesting review in the latest NY Review of Books of Billy Collins'
latest, and James Tates' latest, by Charles Simic.  I wouldn't have
imagined putting those two together in one review, but Simic pulls it
off quite convincingly.  It's a very well written, informative piece.

Richard



From grahamd  Sun Feb 10 21:59:23 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:59:23 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins & Simic
Message-ID: <200202110257.g1B2vkm68829@mx14.mx.voyager.net>

Richard, would you care to say more about what Simic's take on Collins &
Tate might be?  I was interested to read, in a recent interview with
Collins, that at one point he read a good deal of Charles Simic whenever he
wanted to get in the right mood to write.  I wouldn't have paired the two,
myself.  

I've been reading a bit of Simic lately, after some years of not paying
close attention.  Wondering why I have tended to lose interest in his work,
even though whenever I pick up a book, there are always poems I like.  It
probably has something to do with our "aging" thread.  For while Simic's
hardly a true ancient yet, he does seem to have settled on a firm style and
his particular set of themes a rather long while ago.  I, for one, have some
trouble telling his books apart.  

And:  would any Simic fans care to point me to the best of his most recent
work?  I think the most recent one I own is *Hotel Insomnia*, which I
suddenly realize is a decade old. . . .

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: DICK at watson.ibm.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins (again)
>Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002, 8:07 PM
>

>Interesting review in the latest NY Review of Books of Billy Collins'
>latest, and James Tates' latest, by Charles Simic.  I wouldn't have
>imagined putting those two together in one review, but Simic pulls it
>off quite convincingly.  It's a very well written, informative piece.
>
>Richard



From JforJames  Mon Feb 11 09:15:53 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 09:15:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
Message-ID: <37.22a1968d.29992c19@aol.com>

Friday February 1 3:15 PM ET 
Maya Angelou Launches Hallmark Line
By KAREN MATTHEWS, Associated Press Writer 

NEW YORK (AP) - Hallmark: Birthday cards and wedding cards, friendship, 
graduation and get well messages, too. 

Maya Angelou: friend of Billie Holiday and Martin Luther King, celebrated 
poet who read at President Clinton (news - web sites)'s first inauguration, 
author of the classic memoir ``I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.'' 

And now Hallmark's in-house poet. 

In a once-unthinkable collaboration, Angelou has teamed up with the greeting 
card giant. Overcoming initial reservations that she was trivializing 
herself, she has agreed to develop a line of greeting cards and gifts. 

At least one of Angelou's colleagues is appalled at the idea. 

``I think it's preposterous,'' said Billy Collins, the poet laureate of the 
United States and a fellow Random House author. 

``It lowers the understanding of what poetry actually can do,'' Collins said. 
``Hallmark cards has always been a common phrase to describe verse that is 
really less than poetry because it is sentimental and unoriginal. ... I just 
think it's surprising that she would market herself in that direction.'' 

At first, Angelou was cool to the idea. But after meeting with executives of 
the Kansas City, Mo.-based company, she warmed. 

``They were white and black, and they were women and Spanish speaking. That 
pleased me, obviously. ... So I listened,'' Angelou said in an interview at 
her flower-filled upper West Side pied-a-terre. The 73-year-old 
poet-writer-professor-actress-director-singer lives mostly in North Carolina 
and also has a home in Atlanta. 

Then she went to her editor at Random House with the proposal. 

``I said, 'I'm thinking about doing something with Hallmark.' And he said, 
'You're the people's poet. You don't want to trivialize yourself.' So I said 
OK and I hung up. And then I thought about it. And I thought, if I'm the 
people's poet then I ought to be in the people's hands - and I hope in their 
hearts. So I thought, 'Hmm, I'll do it.''' 

The Maya Angelou Life Mosaic Collection has been in stores since just after 
Christmas. It includes 104 greeting cards and assorted bookends, photo 
frames, coffee mugs and other gift items. The cards start at $2.49 and the 
gift items range in price from $19.99 to $49.99. 

Many of the messages inscribed in the cards and other products are condensed 
versions of essays from Angelou's books. They treat themes such as love and 
friendship. 

A typical sentiment is, ``We are more alike, my friends, than we are 
unalike.'' A ceramic ``thankful vase'' is captioned, ``Be present in all 
things and thankful for all things.'' 

A wedding card reads: ``Batten down the hatches, secure the rigging. You and 
your beloved are about to sail on the river of dreams. You are wished fair 
weather and fresh wind ... and always love. Congratulations on your 
marriage.'' 

Hallmark would not divulge what it had paid Angelou. However, Paul Barker, 
senior vice president for creative development at Hallmark, said, ``Retailers 
are very positive about how well it is moving.'' 

To develop the line, Hallmark staff met with Angelou in her home. 

``Sometimes they stayed overnight,'' she said. ``And I cooked for people, and 
we sat and talked. And that's how the line has really been developed. By 
talk. Telling stories. Anecdotes.'' 

Barker said additional products including Christmas and Mother's Day cards 
are planned for the future. 

Angelou, meanwhile, is busy with other projects. She is on the faculty at 
Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, N.C., where this spring she will 
teach a master class on ``World Poetry in Dramatic Performance.'' She'll also 
direct her second film, an adaptation for Showtime of Bebe Moore Campbell's 
``Singing in the Comeback Choir.'' 

And she has a new book coming out in April, ``A Song Flung Up to Heaven,'' 
the sixth and, she insists, the last of her autobiographical works. The first 
appeared in 1970. 

``It takes me exactly to the beginning of writing 'Caged Bird,''' she said. 
``And I refuse to write about writing. It would be the biggest bore in 
life.'' 



From wasanthony  Mon Feb 11 09:33:25 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 06:33:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
In-Reply-To: <37.22a1968d.29992c19@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020211143325.11686.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com>

So now we have the Martha Stewart of poetry.  But, hey, she's cornered
the mall market.

- Jim

--- JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Friday February 1 3:15 PM ET 
> Maya Angelou Launches Hallmark Line
> By KAREN MATTHEWS, Associated Press Writer 
> 
> NEW YORK (AP) - Hallmark: Birthday cards and wedding cards,
> friendship, 
> graduation and get well messages, too. 
> 
> Maya Angelou: friend of Billie Holiday and Martin Luther King,


=====
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>

Readings: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/readings.html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From halvard  Mon Feb 11 10:02:58 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:02:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: besmilr brigham, "Heaved from the Earth"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEAJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

                     
           

                   Heaved from the Earth                     

                   after the tornado, a dead moccasin
                   nailed to the pole 
                   boards scattered across a pasture 

                   lying fierce crosses 
                   jagged in mud 

                   had flung itself 
                   nail and wood 
                   the square-head animal 
                   hurled also in air 

                   or as it raced in weeds 
                   )water flowing, water falling 
                   impaled 
                             both the snake and timber 
                   went flying through the wind 

                   coiled, made a coil (they do 
                   immediately from danger or when hurt 
                   and died in a coil 
                   bit itself 
                   in pain of its own defense the poison 

                                              birds
                                              hurled into yard
                                              fences
                                              one with feet tangled gripping
                                              the open wire, a big Jay

                   struggling from the water 
                   throwing its fanged head
                   high at the lightning, silent 
                   in all that thunder 

                   to die by its own mouth 
                   pushing the fire thorns in 
                   
                               --besmilr brigham


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html 



From JforJames  Mon Feb 11 10:14:21 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:14:21 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Academy's New Boss: Tree Swenson
Message-ID: <178.36c5649.299939cd@aol.com>

February 8, 2002
Poetry Academy, After Budget Uproar, Gets New Chief

By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

he Academy of American Poets yesterday named Tree Swenson its executive 
director, succeeding William Wadsworth, whose departure after a dispute with 
the organization's board last fall provoked angry protests from some 
prominent poets.

Ms. Swenson, 50, is the director of programs for the Massachusetts Cultural 
Council. From 1972 to 1992, she was co-founder, executive director and 
publisher of Copper Canyon Press in Port Townsend, Wash., which became an 
important nonprofit poetry publisher. Copper Canyon published the work of 
poets including the Nobel Prize winners Pablo Neruda and Vicente Aleixandre. 
It also published Lucille Clifton, a member of the panel of poets that 
advised the academy's board.

Mr. Wadsworth, a published poet and former wine-marketing consultant, was the 
executive director for 12 years and won praise from many academy members for 
publicizing poets and poetry with programs like National Poetry Month and an 
elaborate Web site (www.poets.org). 

But the academy's programs also grew expensive, and when the recession 
cramped fund-raising efforts Mr. Wadsworth clashed with the board over how to 
reconcile costs and revenues. After his resignation, the academy dismissed 8 
of its 17 employees.

  Web Site
www.poets.org
 
Ms. Swenson said she planned to continue Mr. Wadsworth's efforts to raise 
poetry's profile while also keeping a close eye on the academy's budget.

"Bill was very highly regarded in the poetry world, and I am one of the 
people who think that he accomplished a lot in his time there," she said.

She is to start her new position on April 1, the beginning of National Poetry 
Month.

Separately, Paul Gottlieb, 67, a vice chairman of the French Groupe de la 
Martini?re, was named chairman of the academy's board, succeeding Jonathan 
Galassi. 




From tadrichards  Mon Feb 11 11:09:30 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:09:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
References: <37.22a1968d.29992c19@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c1b316$7d496920$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

This strikes me as a marriage made in heaven.


Tad



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 9:15 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry


> Friday February 1 3:15 PM ET
> Maya Angelou Launches Hallmark Line
> By KAREN MATTHEWS, Associated Press Writer
>
> NEW YORK (AP) - Hallmark: Birthday cards and wedding cards, friendship,
> graduation and get well messages, too.
>
> Maya Angelou: friend of Billie Holiday and Martin Luther King, celebrated
> poet who read at President Clinton (news - web sites)'s first
inauguration,
> author of the classic memoir ``I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.''
>
> And now Hallmark's in-house poet.
>
> In a once-unthinkable collaboration, Angelou has teamed up with the
greeting
> card giant. Overcoming initial reservations that she was trivializing
> herself, she has agreed to develop a line of greeting cards and gifts.
>
> At least one of Angelou's colleagues is appalled at the idea.
>
> ``I think it's preposterous,'' said Billy Collins, the poet laureate of
the
> United States and a fellow Random House author.
>
> ``It lowers the understanding of what poetry actually can do,'' Collins
said.
> ``Hallmark cards has always been a common phrase to describe verse that is
> really less than poetry because it is sentimental and unoriginal. ... I
just
> think it's surprising that she would market herself in that direction.''
>
> At first, Angelou was cool to the idea. But after meeting with executives
of
> the Kansas City, Mo.-based company, she warmed.
>
> ``They were white and black, and they were women and Spanish speaking.
That
> pleased me, obviously. ... So I listened,'' Angelou said in an interview
at
> her flower-filled upper West Side pied-a-terre. The 73-year-old
> poet-writer-professor-actress-director-singer lives mostly in North
Carolina
> and also has a home in Atlanta.
>
> Then she went to her editor at Random House with the proposal.
>
> ``I said, 'I'm thinking about doing something with Hallmark.' And he said,
> 'You're the people's poet. You don't want to trivialize yourself.' So I
said
> OK and I hung up. And then I thought about it. And I thought, if I'm the
> people's poet then I ought to be in the people's hands - and I hope in
their
> hearts. So I thought, 'Hmm, I'll do it.'''
>
> The Maya Angelou Life Mosaic Collection has been in stores since just
after
> Christmas. It includes 104 greeting cards and assorted bookends, photo
> frames, coffee mugs and other gift items. The cards start at $2.49 and the
> gift items range in price from $19.99 to $49.99.
>
> Many of the messages inscribed in the cards and other products are
condensed
> versions of essays from Angelou's books. They treat themes such as love
and
> friendship.
>
> A typical sentiment is, ``We are more alike, my friends, than we are
> unalike.'' A ceramic ``thankful vase'' is captioned, ``Be present in all
> things and thankful for all things.''
>
> A wedding card reads: ``Batten down the hatches, secure the rigging. You
and
> your beloved are about to sail on the river of dreams. You are wished fair
> weather and fresh wind ... and always love. Congratulations on your
> marriage.''
>
> Hallmark would not divulge what it had paid Angelou. However, Paul Barker,
> senior vice president for creative development at Hallmark, said,
``Retailers
> are very positive about how well it is moving.''
>
> To develop the line, Hallmark staff met with Angelou in her home.
>
> ``Sometimes they stayed overnight,'' she said. ``And I cooked for people,
and
> we sat and talked. And that's how the line has really been developed. By
> talk. Telling stories. Anecdotes.''
>
> Barker said additional products including Christmas and Mother's Day cards
> are planned for the future.
>
> Angelou, meanwhile, is busy with other projects. She is on the faculty at
> Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, N.C., where this spring she will
> teach a master class on ``World Poetry in Dramatic Performance.'' She'll
also
> direct her second film, an adaptation for Showtime of Bebe Moore
Campbell's
> ``Singing in the Comeback Choir.''
>
> And she has a new book coming out in April, ``A Song Flung Up to Heaven,''
> the sixth and, she insists, the last of her autobiographical works. The
first
> appeared in 1970.
>
> ``It takes me exactly to the beginning of writing 'Caged Bird,''' she
said.
> ``And I refuse to write about writing. It would be the biggest bore in
> life.''
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From rkubie  Mon Feb 11 11:13:51 2002
From: rkubie (Rachel Kubie)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:13:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anamnesis Press (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.43.0202111113430.8685-100000@mail.pratt.lib.md.us>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:43:22 -0600
From: Marilyn L. Taylor <mlt at CSD.UWM.EDU>
Reply-To: Discussion of Women's Poetry List <WOM-PO at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU>
To: WOM-PO at LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Anamnesis Press

Hello, Wom-pos--

It's my sad duty to report that Keith Allen Daniels, editor, publisher,
and moving spirit behind Anamnesis Press, died of cancer on the 18th of
December, 2001.  He was 45 years old.  I spoke to his widow, Toni
Daniels, this morning, and she feels she has no choice other than to
cease operations at the press, and to return all submissions to the 2002
Anamnesis Press Chapbook competition.

Keith was devoted to the art of poetry, and, like so many stalwarts in
the tattered army of small press publishers, committed to the concept of
bringing it to the attention of as many readers as possible.  He will be
much missed.

Marilyn Taylor
--
Marilyn L. Taylor
mlt at csd.uwm.edu   http://www.uwm.edu/~mlt/




From tadrichards  Mon Feb 11 11:12:35 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:12:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: besmilr brigham, "Heaved from the Earth"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEAJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002101c1b316$eb38b8a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Hal -- you continue to introduce me to voices I hadn't heard before, and am
the better for having heard now.

Tad



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 10:02 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: besmilr brigham, "Heaved from the
Earth"


>
>
>
>
>                    Heaved from the Earth
>
>                    after the tornado, a dead moccasin
>                    nailed to the pole
>                    boards scattered across a pasture
>
>                    lying fierce crosses
>                    jagged in mud
>
>                    had flung itself
>                    nail and wood
>                    the square-head animal
>                    hurled also in air
>
>                    or as it raced in weeds
>                    )water flowing, water falling
>                    impaled
>                              both the snake and timber
>                    went flying through the wind
>
>                    coiled, made a coil (they do
>                    immediately from danger or when hurt
>                    and died in a coil
>                    bit itself
>                    in pain of its own defense the poison
>
>                                               birds
>                                               hurled into yard
>                                               fences
>                                               one with feet tangled
gripping
>                                               the open wire, a big Jay
>
>                    struggling from the water
>                    throwing its fanged head
>                    high at the lightning, silent
>                    in all that thunder
>
>                    to die by its own mouth
>                    pushing the fire thorns in
>
>                                --besmilr brigham
>
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Mon Feb 11 11:40:51 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:40:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: besmilr brigham, "Heaved from the Earth"
In-Reply-To: <002101c1b316$eb38b8a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEAPEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Thanks, Tad. Besmilr Brigham (she preferred lower case) died a year ago
last October after a longish stint of Alzheimer's. She didn't live to see
her new collection out from Lost Roads Press in Barrington, RI. I haven't
seen it yet, but will soon be ordering it from Serendipity. Don't know why,
but it doesn't seem to be available via Amazon or BN. "Heaved from the
Earth," btw, was the title poem of her Knopf collection back in '71. 

Somewhere on this machine is an obit that Besmilr's daughter Heloise
(wife of the poet Keith Wilson) wrote for a Las Cruces, New Mexico,
newspaper. I'll send that along to anyone who wants it.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


{    Hal -- you continue to introduce me to voices I hadn't heard before, and am
{    the better for having heard now.
{    
{    Tad
{    
{    
{    
{    Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
{    at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
{    
{    
{    ----- Original Message -----
{    From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
{    To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
{    Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 10:02 AM
{    Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: besmilr brigham, "Heaved from the
{    Earth"
{    
{    
{    >
{    >
{    >
{    >
{    >                    Heaved from the Earth
{    >
{    >                    after the tornado, a dead moccasin
{    >                    nailed to the pole
{    >                    boards scattered across a pasture
{    >
{    >                    lying fierce crosses
{    >                    jagged in mud
{    >
{    >                    had flung itself
{    >                    nail and wood
{    >                    the square-head animal
{    >                    hurled also in air
{    >
{    >                    or as it raced in weeds
{    >                    )water flowing, water falling
{    >                    impaled
{    >                              both the snake and timber
{    >                    went flying through the wind
{    >
{    >                    coiled, made a coil (they do
{    >                    immediately from danger or when hurt
{    >                    and died in a coil
{    >                    bit itself
{    >                    in pain of its own defense the poison
{    >
{    >                                               birds
{    >                                               hurled into yard
{    >                                               fences
{    >                                               one with feet tangled
{    gripping
{    >                                               the open wire, a big Jay
{    >
{    >                    struggling from the water
{    >                    throwing its fanged head
{    >                    high at the lightning, silent
{    >                    in all that thunder
{    >
{    >                    to die by its own mouth
{    >                    pushing the fire thorns in
{    >
{    >                                --besmilr brigham
{    >
{    >
{    > Hal
{    >
{    > Halvard Johnson
{    > ===============
{    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    



From halvard  Mon Feb 11 13:37:22 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:37:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Tate, "Teaching the Ape to Write Poems"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEBDEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Teaching the Ape to Write Poems

They didn't have much trouble
teaching the ape to write poems:
first they strapped him into the chair,
then tied the pencil around his hand
(the paper had already been nailed down).
Then Dr. Bluespire leaned over his shoulder
and whispered into his ear:
"You look like a god sitting there.
Why don't you try writing something?"

--James Tate


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From Rsgwynn1  Mon Feb 11 15:16:11 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:16:11 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Tate, "Teaching the Ape to Write Poems"
Message-ID: <85.1743c557.2999808b@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/11/2002 12:38:21 PM Central Standard Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:


> Teaching the Ape to Write Poems
> 
> They didn't have much trouble
> teaching the ape to write poems:
> first they strapped him into the chair,
> then tied the pencil around his hand
> (the paper had already been nailed down).
> Then Dr. Bluespire leaned over his shoulder
> and whispered into his ear:
> "You look like a god sitting there.
> Why don't you try writing something?"
> 
> --James Tate
> 
> 
> Hal
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> 

This is the Tate poem I used on Poetry: A Pocket Anthology.  One of my 
favorites.
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From gmcvay  Mon Feb 11 15:21:40 2002
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:21:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Tate, "Teaching the Ape to
 Write Poems"
In-Reply-To: <85.1743c557.2999808b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202111519430.10672-100000@adams.patriot.net>

I have to admit I prefer Russell Edson on apes. I'm at work and away from
my large, dusty library, but the one about the man who spills coffee on
his ape, which peeps and whistles in response, comes to mind. Or the woman
cooking ape for dinner.

Gwyn (ape-eon at work but well-read)

---
"We share half our genome with the banana. This is more evident in some of my
acquaintances than others."
Sir Robert May, President of the Royal Society of London





From bobgrumman  Mon Feb 11 15:28:50 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:28:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
References: <37.22a1968d.29992c19@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001001c1b33a$b7ce24e0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

Is it permissible to accuse Billy Collins of sour grapes?

I think being Hallmark's first inhouse-poet is better than being
the U.S. Poet Laureate, myself.  It's certainly no step down for Angelou.

                                                                  --Bob G.

Ooops, and I was going to post nothing but nice this year!


> Friday February 1 3:15 PM ET
> Maya Angelou Launches Hallmark Line
> By KAREN MATTHEWS, Associated Press Writer
>
> NEW YORK (AP) - Hallmark: Birthday cards and wedding cards, friendship,
> graduation and get well messages, too.
>
> Maya Angelou: friend of Billie Holiday and Martin Luther King, celebrated
> poet who read at President Clinton (news - web sites)'s first
inauguration,
> author of the classic memoir ``I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.''
>
> And now Hallmark's in-house poet.
>
> In a once-unthinkable collaboration, Angelou has teamed up with the
greeting
> card giant. Overcoming initial reservations that she was trivializing
> herself, she has agreed to develop a line of greeting cards and gifts.
>
> At least one of Angelou's colleagues is appalled at the idea.
>
> ``I think it's preposterous,'' said Billy Collins, the poet laureate of
the
> United States and a fellow Random House author.
>
> ``It lowers the understanding of what poetry actually can do,'' Collins
said.
> ``Hallmark cards has always been a common phrase to describe verse that is
> really less than poetry because it is sentimental and unoriginal. ... I
just
> think it's surprising that she would market herself in that direction.''
>
> At first, Angelou was cool to the idea. But after meeting with executives
of
> the Kansas City, Mo.-based company, she warmed.
>
> ``They were white and black, and they were women and Spanish speaking.
That
> pleased me, obviously. ... So I listened,'' Angelou said in an interview
at
> her flower-filled upper West Side pied-a-terre. The 73-year-old
> poet-writer-professor-actress-director-singer lives mostly in North
Carolina
> and also has a home in Atlanta.
>
> Then she went to her editor at Random House with the proposal.
>
> ``I said, 'I'm thinking about doing something with Hallmark.' And he said,
> 'You're the people's poet. You don't want to trivialize yourself.' So I
said
> OK and I hung up. And then I thought about it. And I thought, if I'm the
> people's poet then I ought to be in the people's hands - and I hope in
their
> hearts. So I thought, 'Hmm, I'll do it.'''
>
> The Maya Angelou Life Mosaic Collection has been in stores since just
after
> Christmas. It includes 104 greeting cards and assorted bookends, photo
> frames, coffee mugs and other gift items. The cards start at $2.49 and the
> gift items range in price from $19.99 to $49.99.
>
> Many of the messages inscribed in the cards and other products are
condensed
> versions of essays from Angelou's books. They treat themes such as love
and
> friendship.
>
> A typical sentiment is, ``We are more alike, my friends, than we are
> unalike.'' A ceramic ``thankful vase'' is captioned, ``Be present in all
> things and thankful for all things.''
>
> A wedding card reads: ``Batten down the hatches, secure the rigging. You
and
> your beloved are about to sail on the river of dreams. You are wished fair
> weather and fresh wind ... and always love. Congratulations on your
> marriage.''
>
> Hallmark would not divulge what it had paid Angelou. However, Paul Barker,
> senior vice president for creative development at Hallmark, said,
``Retailers
> are very positive about how well it is moving.''
>
> To develop the line, Hallmark staff met with Angelou in her home.
>
> ``Sometimes they stayed overnight,'' she said. ``And I cooked for people,
and
> we sat and talked. And that's how the line has really been developed. By
> talk. Telling stories. Anecdotes.''
>
> Barker said additional products including Christmas and Mother's Day cards
> are planned for the future.
>
> Angelou, meanwhile, is busy with other projects. She is on the faculty at
> Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, N.C., where this spring she will
> teach a master class on ``World Poetry in Dramatic Performance.'' She'll
also
> direct her second film, an adaptation for Showtime of Bebe Moore
Campbell's
> ``Singing in the Comeback Choir.''
>
> And she has a new book coming out in April, ``A Song Flung Up to Heaven,''
> the sixth and, she insists, the last of her autobiographical works. The
first
> appeared in 1970.
>
> ``It takes me exactly to the beginning of writing 'Caged Bird,''' she
said.
> ``And I refuse to write about writing. It would be the biggest bore in
life.''





From Rsgwynn1  Mon Feb 11 16:14:00 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:14:00 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
Message-ID: <c8.223b277e.29998e18@cs.com>

A sample of Angelou's cards and gifts can be found at

http://www.hallmark.com/Website/hk_collections.html?lid=GND2
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From halvard  Mon Feb 11 16:29:12 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:29:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Tate, "Teaching the Ape toWrite Poems"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202111519430.10672-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEBIEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Ah, well, if it's apes you're into, I'd suggest Desmond Morris.

Hal           "For me the Internet . . . is like the Congo.
                 I know it exists, but I will never go there."
                                  --Harold Bloom
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


{    I have to admit I prefer Russell Edson on apes. I'm at work and away from
{    my large, dusty library, but the one about the man who spills coffee on
{    his ape, which peeps and whistles in response, comes to mind. Or the woman
{    cooking ape for dinner.
{    
{    Gwyn (ape-eon at work but well-read)




From JforJames  Mon Feb 11 17:31:59 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:31:59 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NewPoetry's First Anniversary
Message-ID: <124.bab21da.2999a05f@aol.com>

Today is the first anniversary of this list. (Which rose from the dissipating
electrons of what was once CAP-L.) Whether you're a lurker, an occasional
poster or an active participant, I want to thank you for being a part 
of the list. Also, thanks for keeping the spirit of the discussion
respectful and the list free of acrimony...that makes my life easier.
I also want to acknowledge the help of our Contributing Correspondents: 
David Graham, Tad Richards, James Cervantes, Paul Lake, Jeff Newberry, 
and Halvard Johnson. They're job is to help keep the discussion percolating. 
(We lost a few CCs along the way. If you'd like to sign on as a CC, 
please contact me backchannel. No pay...but light duty.) 

If you know of anyone who might be interested in joining NewPoetry, 
please forward the informational message below.
Jim Finnegan
----
NEW-POETY LIST
Contemporary Poetry News & Views

If you crave thoughtful conversation about contemporary poetry, you should 
join 
the NewPoetry List. Founded early in 2001, this list has nearly 200 members 
(poets &/or readers interested in contemporary poetry).

The NewPoetry List welcomes:

Book Publication Announcements
Book Reviews (in full or excerpted)
LitMag (Web/Print) New Issue Announcements
Calls for Submissions 
Award Announcements
Open Letters
Shop Talk
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& your Remarks?

The list has a Digest Option for those who like to have the individual 
list messages (posts) aggregated into a single email message.

Archives available at: 
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Subscribe (free) at:
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Questions or problems, contact:
JforJames at aol.com



From odysseus34  Mon Feb 11 21:01:47 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:01:47 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
References: <37.22a1968d.29992c19@aol.com> <001001c1b33a$b7ce24e0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>
Message-ID: <3C687788.88954891@earthlink.net>


Bob Grumman wrote:

> Is it permissible to accuse Billy Collins of sour grapes?
>
> I think being Hallmark's first inhouse-poet is better than being
> the U.S. Poet Laureate, myself.  It's certainly no step down for Angelou.

One could indeed argue that by being Hallmark's Poet she is now a sort of
unofficial US Poet Laureate.  Surely far more people will now read her poems
than Billy's.  That is, one could argue this, but I would not, because like Bob
I say nothing but nice things.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Mon Feb 11 22:19:03 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:19:03 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] NewPoetry's First Anniversary
References: <124.bab21da.2999a05f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C68899C.4A64D3AB@earthlink.net>


JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Today is the first anniversary of this list. (Which rose from the dissipating
> electrons of what was once CAP-L.) Whether you're a lurker, an occasional
> poster or an active participant, I want to thank you for being a part
> of the list.

And Jim shouldn't have to say this himself, so I'll say it:  thank _you,_ Jim,
for providing such an eclectic, free-wheeling and continually interesting
forum.  It's a great thing to see so many different poetic "types" gathered
together on one list.  New-Po may be many things, but dull isn't one of them.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From halvard  Mon Feb 11 23:21:08 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:21:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] NewPoetry's First Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <124.bab21da.2999a05f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEBNEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

   
{    Today is the first anniversary of this list. 

Many happy returns!

Hal           "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy."
                                  --Robert Ashley

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From grahamd  Mon Feb 11 23:58:47 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:58:47 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ape
Message-ID: <200202120458.g1C4wYY43396@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

Ape


You haven't finished your ape, said mother to father, who had monkey hair
and blood on his whiskers.

I've had enough monkey, cried father.

You didn't eat the hands, and I went to all the trouble to make onion rings
for its fingers, said mother.

I'll just nibble on its forehead, and then I've had enough, said father.

I stuffed its nose with garlic, just like you like it, said mother.

Why don't you have the butcher cut these apes up? You lay the whole thing on
the table every night; the same fractured skull, the same singed fur; like
someone who died horribly. These aren't dinners, these are post-mortem
dissections.

Try a piece of its gum, I've stuffed its mouth with bread, said mother.

Ugh, it looks like a mouth full of vomit. How can I bite into its cheek with
bread spilling out of its mouth? cried father.

Break one of the ears off, they're so crispy, said mother.

I wish to hell you'd put underpants on these apes; even a jockstrap,
screamed father.

Father, how dare you insinuate that I see the ape as anything more thn
simple meat, screamed mother. 

Well what's with this ribbon tied in a bow on its privates? screamed father.

Are you saying that I am in love with this vicious creature? That I would
submit my female opening to this brute? That after we had love on the
kitchen floor I would put him in the oven, after breaking his head with a
frying pan; and then serve him to my husband, that my husband might eat the
evidence of my infidelity . . . ?

I'm just saying that I'm damn sick of ape every night, cried father.

--Russell Edson, 1976 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: Gwyn McVay <gmcvay at patriot.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Tate, "Teaching the Ape to
Write Poems"
>Date: Mon, Feb 11, 2002, 2:21 PM
>

>I have to admit I prefer Russell Edson on apes. I'm at work and away from
>my large, dusty library, but the one about the man who spills coffee on
>his ape, which peeps and whistles in response, comes to mind. Or the woman
>cooking ape for dinner.
>
>Gwyn (ape-eon at work but well-read)



From tadrichards  Tue Feb 12 01:18:47 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:18:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
References: <c8.223b277e.29998e18@cs.com>
Message-ID: <004301c1b38d$2275f140$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>


  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 4:14 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry


  A sample of Angelou's cards and gifts can be found at 

  http://www.hallmark.com/Website/hk_collections.html?lid=GND2 



  Good lord.

  Tad
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From JforJames  Tue Feb 12 09:30:49 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 09:30:49 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
Message-ID: <14c.8cc1e0c.299a8119@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/11/02 4:15:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes:

> http://www.hallmark.com/Website/hk_collections.html?lid=GND2
>  
>  
>  A sample of Angelou's cards and gifts can be found at

A collaboration with Thomas Kinkade surely is on the shining horizon.
Finnegan



From paul.lake  Tue Feb 12 11:57:46 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:57:46 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
In-Reply-To: <3C64AD3F.68B1D394@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B88EA5AA.2643%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/8/02 11:02 PM, odysseus34 at odysseus34 at earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> 
> Rachel Loden wrote:
> 
>> Wonder whether "Tamer and Hawk" was written partly in response to Robert
>> Duncan's "My Mother Would Be A Falconress." Gunn would certainly have
>> known it.
> 
> Dear Rachel,
> 
> What a fascinating idea.  Were there any other connections between Gunn and
> Duncan?  Would they have known each other?  Just curious, as I have no
> idea.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Yes, they know each other.  When I was living in SF in the early 80's I saw
them talking on several occasions.

Paul Lake




From GrahamD  Tue Feb 12 13:41:10 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:41:10 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Hallmarketing Poetry
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D03@mail.ripon.edu>

I think far more people have been reading Angelou than Collins for some time
now, just as more read Edgar Guest than Robert Frost.

I'm just surprised at Collins's frankness at saying aloud what most poets
think.  Kind of interesting to have a poet laureate willing to be cranky in
public, isn't it?

I guess he could have pushed it one step further, and noted that Angelou's
pre-Hallmark verse is, well, rather Hallmarky.  

David Graham

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================

> ----------
> From: 	odysseus34
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Monday, February 11, 2002 8:01 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> > Is it permissible to accuse Billy Collins of sour grapes?
> >
> > I think being Hallmark's first inhouse-poet is better than being
> > the U.S. Poet Laureate, myself.  It's certainly no step down for
> Angelou.
> 
> One could indeed argue that by being Hallmark's Poet she is now a sort of
> unofficial US Poet Laureate.  Surely far more people will now read her
> poems
> than Billy's.  That is, one could argue this, but I would not, because
> like Bob
> I say nothing but nice things.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 



From DICK  Tue Feb 12 13:55:22 2002
From: DICK (DICK at watson.ibm.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 02 13:55:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
Message-ID: <200202121903.g1CJ3cK36188@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com>

I find it inconceivable that Collins' comments about
Maya Angelou's appointment at Hallmark comes from
sour grapes.  He surely doesn't need the money -
nor, _pace_ Moira Russell, the exposure.

Collins seems to be of the rare type who says what he
thinks rather than the expected, or the politic.

Richard



From paul.lake  Tue Feb 12 14:27:01 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 13:27:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Reviews
Message-ID: <B88EC8A5.2649%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I don't remember seeing this cite mentioned on this list before, so here's a
website that specializes in poetry reviews and articles.

http://www.cprw.com/


Paul Lake




From languagethief  Tue Feb 12 15:27:42 2002
From: languagethief (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 12:27:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
In-Reply-To: <200202121903.g1CJ3cK36188@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <20020212202742.47396.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com>

Re "sour grapes" ... do any of us really envy Angelou
this gig? Sure, the money would be nice, but if I want
to get into envy, I can find other people who have
turned their poetic gifts into big bucks. Lou Reed,
for example. James Dickey. 




--- DICK at watson.ibm.com wrote:
> I find it inconceivable that Collins' comments about
> Maya Angelou's appointment at Hallmark comes from
> sour grapes.  He surely doesn't need the money -
> nor, _pace_ Moira Russell, the exposure.
> 
> Collins seems to be of the rare type who says what
> he
> thinks rather than the expected, or the politic.
> 
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


__________________________________________________
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Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From bobgrumman  Tue Feb 12 16:01:03 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 16:01:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <200202121903.g1CJ3cK36188@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <003001c1b408$67839820$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

> I find it inconceivable that Collins' comments about
> Maya Angelou's appointment at Hallmark comes from
> sour grapes.  He surely doesn't need the money -
> nor, _pace_ Moira Russell, the exposure.
>
> Collins seems to be of the rare type who says what he
> thinks rather than the expected, or the politic.
>
> Richard

I was being ironic, remembering how some who belittled Collins
the way he belittled Angelou were accused of sour grapes.

                                                                     --Bob
G.














From bobgrumman  Tue Feb 12 18:55:12 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:55:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] To Celebrate New-Poetry's First Anniversary
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86CCC@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <004d01c1b420$b6bd58a0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

I applaud James for keeping this discussion group aloft
for a full year.  Considering how much seems to have been
said at it, I thought it'd been going a lot longer.  I've learned
from it, and especially appreciate the poems that have been
posted, which have broadened my idea of what's out there,
both good and bad.  

To celebrate, I'm now going to post a poem of my 
own to New-Poetry for the first time (as far as I know).  
Actually, the main reason I'm posting it is that I recently 
put it up at humanities.lit.authors.shakespeare where
I argue with others about who wrote Shakespeare, and the
anti-Stratfordian I was arguing with at the time called it
"unintelligible garbage" (intentionally unintelligible, in fact).  I'd
posted it as an example of a poem based on something out
of my own life but with all details removed for aesthetic
reasons.  I was trying to persuade the anti-Stratfordian
that this was the was Shakespeare operated.

Others, these ones on my side in the authorship controversy
but like most lovers of Shakespeare, and most posters to
New-Poetry, agreed with my opponent that poetry has been
going downhill since the invention of free verse.  They were 
too polite to say anthing about my poem, though.

I'm curious if anyone here finds it of any interest.  I consider it
one of my best conventional poems but have no trouble with
anyone's not liking it.  It's called "Her Willingnesses":

Half a chorus below noon
Poem pterumbled through
the splurged willingnesses
she'd uncandled on the steps 
of his ...ctatio...

An aria lower, he fused with
long-abandoned blueberry guesses
in a shadowly field
piss-colored cottages had exhaled
somewhere in Massachusetts.
Nuns on black bicycles were everywhere.

(Note: "Poem" is the name of the persona of
this and many other related poems of mine.)

                                     --Bob G.




From JforJames  Tue Feb 12 21:22:42 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:22:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Things Are Bad All Over
Message-ID: <16b.8be2997.299b27f2@aol.com>

University of Warwick Researcher Says Poetry Publishing in Crisis - "At the 
major presses, the accountants are in charge and poetry is virtually banned" 
Date :18/01/2002 Type : Press Release University of Warwick researcher David 
Morley will open a major debate on the future of poetry on Wednesday 30th 
January at the University of Warwick by claiming that: "These are bleak times 
to be a new poet. At the major presses, the accountants are in charge and 
poetry is virtually banned. When Oxford University Press slammed its doors on 
poets last year it signalled the end of a long tradition of publishing. And 
there was worse to come. Faber and Cape slimmed their list to a trickle of 
books. Bloodaxe announced a three year moratorium on publishing new work. The 
few presses left are underfunded and understaffed, yet overwhelmed with new 
poets clamouring at the sacred gate". David Morley, Director of the 
University of Warwick's "Warwick Writing Programmme" will make these remarks 
as chair of a debate entitled The Crisis in Poetry Publishing at the 
University of Warwick's Arts Centre, on Wednesday 30th January at 7.15pm, 
which will bring together for the first time five of the key players from the 
publishing industry to discuss the issues involved in poetry publishing 
today. Details on the panellists now follow: As chairman of Bloodaxe Books, 
Simon Thirsk has wrestled with their finance/marketing/survival problems for 
20 years. Esther Morgan is the editor of the press Pen&Inc. She lectures in 
creative writing at the University of East Anglia and has published her first 
collection with Bloodaxe. Christina Patterson is the new Director of The 
Poetry Society, the poets' equivalent of the NUS. Rupert Loydell is an 
acclaimed poet and Arts Council Poetry Fellow at Warwick; he edits Stride 
Publications. Matthew Hollis is co-editor of Strong Words: Modern Poets on 
Modern Poetry (Bloodaxe), and works first as an editor at Oxford University 
Press and now at Faber as assistant poetry editor. David Morley, Director of 
the Warwick Writing Programme and a poet himself, chairs the debate, which 
will be recorded and published. For further information please contact: David 
Morley, University of Warwick Tel: 024 76 523346 
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From JforJames  Tue Feb 12 22:18:39 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:18:39 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] From the Simianthology
Message-ID: <116.c362770.299b350f@aol.com>

One by Donald Finkel... 


The Ape Who Painted
       
       Toward the end of his career, Congo, was pro-
       ducing excellent circles, but nearly always filled them
       in immediately.
                         --Alexander Alland, Jr., _The Artistic Animal_

Toward the end painter was subject to sudden
fits of aimless pacing, sucking the end of his brush
his lips were permanently Indian Red, a pigment
to which he had grown obsessively partial

from time to time he would pause
to examine an apple, turning it
in his long, sensitive fingers, or fish
a dust-mouse gently from under his bed
not a hair displaced
or moon for hours, sprawled on his favorite tire
praying to his thumb

how fortunate we are to have captured on film
his miraculous thumb, in full career
sweeping in a great assured arc from left to right
trailing a gleaming Indian Red parabola
counterclockwise, following its own law
tailing up again, toward its beginning
deftly dividing out from in
then filling carefully the bowl of zero
with precious red, horizon to horizon

toward the end, the painter's cage was strewn
with fallen suns, great bloody periods
pages from some cosmic calendar
while he grew more taciturn than ever


from _What Manner of Beast_
poems by Donald Finkel (Atheneum, 1981)

A book full of many poems dealing with 
humankind's attempts to communicate with animals

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From odysseus34  Tue Feb 12 21:34:47 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:34:47 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <20020212202742.47396.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3C69D0C2.6739C6AC@earthlink.net>


The Old Mole wrote:

> Re "sour grapes" ... do any of us really envy Angelou
> this gig? Sure, the money would be nice, but if I want
> to get into envy, I can find other people who have
> turned their poetic gifts into big bucks. Lou Reed,
> for example. James Dickey.

OK, I would pay real money to be Lou Reed.  -- James Dickey parlayed the
big bucks, though?  Did I miss something?  (Other than "Deliverance"?)

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Tue Feb 12 21:39:08 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:39:08 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <200202121903.g1CJ3cK36188@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com> <003001c1b408$67839820$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>
Message-ID: <3C69D1C7.BF4F38D2@earthlink.net>

> I was being ironic, remembering how some who belittled Collins
> the way he belittled Angelou were accused of sour grapes.
>
>                                                                      --Bob
> G.

My motives weren't anywhere near as high-minded;  I was just being a
smartass.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From tadrichards  Wed Feb 13 01:00:54 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 01:00:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <20020212202742.47396.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com> <3C69D0C2.6739C6AC@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <014701c1b453$cc7b4340$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Deliverance was a big-bucks item. A  bestselling novel, a high budget movie.

And one of my paperback originals was cover-blurbed...."More gripping, more
savage than Deliverance!"



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: "odysseus34" <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"


>
>
> The Old Mole wrote:
>
> > Re "sour grapes" ... do any of us really envy Angelou
> > this gig? Sure, the money would be nice, but if I want
> > to get into envy, I can find other people who have
> > turned their poetic gifts into big bucks. Lou Reed,
> > for example. James Dickey.
>
> OK, I would pay real money to be Lou Reed.  -- James Dickey parlayed the
> big bucks, though?  Did I miss something?  (Other than "Deliverance"?)
>
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From odysseus34  Wed Feb 13 00:19:44 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:19:44 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <20020212202742.47396.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com> <3C69D0C2.6739C6AC@earthlink.net> <014701c1b453$cc7b4340$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3C69F76C.ACC11781@earthlink.net>


theoldmole wrote:

> Deliverance was a big-bucks item. A  bestselling novel, a high budget movie.
>
> And one of my paperback originals was cover-blurbed...."More gripping, more
> savage than Deliverance!

Ah, I thought that was what you meant.  But surely Lou Reed's lyrics are, well,
closer to poetry than "Deliverance"?  I mean, just in terms of making $$ off
poetry -- making money off lyrics would seem to me closer to poetry than a poet
writing a novel.

The only really savage thing I remember about "Deliverance" is that goddamned
banjo-picking contest.

(Oh my, Todd Eldridge just blew the quadruple jump.)

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Wed Feb 13 00:25:42 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:25:42 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Thom Gunn:  "Tamer and Hawk"
References: <B88EA5AA.2643%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3C69F8D0.4C2C9283@earthlink.net>

> Yes, they (Gunn & Duncan) know each other.  When I was living in SF in the
> early 80's I saw
> them talking on several occasions.
>
> Paul Lake

Wow.  But did anyone ever overhear what was said?

gossipily curious

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Wed Feb 13 00:46:41 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:46:41 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
References: <14c.8cc1e0c.299a8119@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C69FDB9.C7D3209B@earthlink.net>


JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> A collaboration with Thomas Kinkade surely is on the shining horizon.

AUGH!

Now I need to go wash my mind out with soap!

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From halvard  Wed Feb 13 07:24:00 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:24:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
In-Reply-To: <3C69F76C.ACC11781@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAECPEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Speaking of making $$ off poetry, no one yet seems to have
mentioned Allen Ginsberg and co. Ginsberg was legendary in
terms of his ability to turn the Beat scene into a money-making
proposition for himself, Kerouac, Burroughs, and some others.

Hal            Visit Our Other Location

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


{    I mean, just in terms of making $$ off
{    poetry -- making money off lyrics would seem to me closer to poetry than a poet
{    writing a novel.
{    Moira



From halvard  Wed Feb 13 07:53:57 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:53:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] From the Simianthology
In-Reply-To: <116.c362770.299b350f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEDAEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

How to Tell Poets from Other Mammals

1.

Poets all have hair, rather than feathers or scales.
But when one reads that the side walls of their noses
contain a spongy erectile tissue that leads to nasal
enlargement and nostril expansion by vaso-congestion
during sexual arousal, one begins to wonder.

2.

Poets have rounded outlines. But any body relationship
they feel should be grist to their sexual mill, and because they
are an inventive species it would be natural for them to experiment
with any postures they like?the more the better, in fact,
because this will increase the complexity of the sexual act,
increase sexual novelty, and prevent sexual boredom
between the members of long-mated poet pairs.

3.

Poets have flat faces, but virtually all the sexual signals and erogenous
zones are on the front of their bodies?the facial expressions, the lips,
the beards, the nipples, the areolar signals, the breasts of the females,
the pubic hair, the genitals themselves, the major blushing areas,
and the major sexual flush zones.

4.

Poets have varied facial expressions, but these are often unseen by partners, as
the typical mating posture of poets involves the rear approach of the male
to the female. She lifts her rear end and directs it toward the male. Her genital
region is visually presented backwards to him. He sees it, moves toward her,
and mounts her from behind. There is no frontal body contact during copulation,
the male?s genital region being pressed firmly to the female?s rump region.

5.

Poets can ?manipulate? objects. They attack small objects,
shake large ones, spit and spew, and try they try to bite, scratch or
strike anything in reach. In younger poets these activities are rather
random and uncoordinated. Their crying indicates that fear
is still present. The aggression has not yet matured to the point
of a pure attack: this will come much later when the poet is sure
of itself and fully aware of its physical capacities. When it does develop,
it has its own special facial signals. These consist of a tight-lipped glare.
The lips are pursed into a hard line, with the mouth-corners
held forward rather than pulled back. The eyes stare fixedly at
the audience and the eyebrows are lowered in a frown. The fists
are clenched. The poet has begun to assert itself.

[adapted from Desmond Morris's *The Naked Ape*]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From wasanthony  Wed Feb 13 10:06:05 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 07:06:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Reviews
In-Reply-To: <B88EC8A5.2649%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <20020213150605.50773.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Paul.  I'm adding it to the links page at poetserv.com

- Jim

--- Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:
> I don't remember seeing this cite mentioned on this list before, so
> here's a
> website that specializes in poetry reviews and articles.
> 
> http://www.cprw.com/
> 
> 
> Paul Lake
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>

Readings: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/readings.html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
http://greetings.yahoo.com



From GrahamD  Wed Feb 13 12:49:15 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:49:15 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D0B@mail.ripon.edu>

All things are relative, of course, and I'll bet Ginsberg never made what
the folks in Silicon Valley would consider real money.  (My brother the tax
lawyer once informed me that the pennies I've earned as a poet are
classified as "hobby income.")  

There are other poets who've made significant money (in po-biz terms) apart
from teaching. Many on the reading circuit--supported indirectly by the
academic world, of course, just as Ginsberg was.

Robert Bly, for instance--who even before he transformed into Iron Robert
made most his income by giving readings.  Donald Hall.  Gwendolyn Brooks.
And didn't W. S. Merwin survive for decades without teaching?  

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================

> ----------
> From: 	Halvard Johnson
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 13, 2002 6:24 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	RE: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
> 
> Speaking of making $$ off poetry, no one yet seems to have
> mentioned Allen Ginsberg and co. Ginsberg was legendary in
> terms of his ability to turn the Beat scene into a money-making
> proposition for himself, Kerouac, Burroughs, and some others.
> 
> Hal            Visit Our Other Location
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> 
> 



From Jtcanaday  Wed Feb 13 12:49:32 2002
From: Jtcanaday (Jtcanaday at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 12:49:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] PoetryNet and Poet of the Month
Message-ID: <16f.8c2df3d.299c012c@aol.com>

Just a heads up, if you have tried to connect to PoetryNet recently, the 
server is in thrall to some sort of bizarre technical glitch that requires 
you to add "/index.html" to the URL. (Normally, your internet browser does 
this for you.)

If you haven't tried to visit recently, do! This month's Poet of the Month is 
Amy Uyematsu. Recent Poets of the Month have included: Michael Waters (Jan 
2002), Kim Addonizio (Dec 2001), Charles Harper Webb (Nov 2001), and David 
Lehman (Oct 2001).

The URLs are:

for PoetryNet (in general): <A HREF="members.aol.com/poetrynet/index.html">
members.aol.com/poetrynet/index.html</A>
for Poet of the Month (direct): <A 
HREF="members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/index.html">
members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/index.html</A>

with best wishes,

John Canaday



From halvard  Wed Feb 13 13:17:37 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:17:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D0B@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEDIEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Well, of course, we're not talking real money here, David. We're
talking po biz, and Ginsberg was a master at self-promotion and
could earn $10,000 per reading in his prime. My guess is that there
are a couple nowadays who can make that (even in current dollars)--
Angelou? June Jordan? Others?

Bly, as I recall, made his living by doing translations, long before he
could draw as a reader of his own work. Merwin? Don't know.
Money of his own? 

Lynda and I heard the Juilliard Quartet play Elliott Carter's String 
Quartet #5 the other night, and Carter himself (at 95!) gave a little
lecture before the performance. He's still going strong, doing major
work every year, and there's been family money (those little liver
pills, I've heard--not to mention a wife with money) to keep him
"job"-free for his entire career.

Hal
   
{    All things are relative, of course, and I'll bet Ginsberg never made what
{    the folks in Silicon Valley would consider real money.  (My brother the tax
{    lawyer once informed me that the pennies I've earned as a poet are
{    classified as "hobby income.")  
{    
{    There are other poets who've made significant money (in po-biz terms) apart
{    from teaching. Many on the reading circuit--supported indirectly by the
{    academic world, of course, just as Ginsberg was.
{    
{    Robert Bly, for instance--who even before he transformed into Iron Robert
{    made most his income by giving readings.  Donald Hall.  Gwendolyn Brooks.
{    And didn't W. S. Merwin survive for decades without teaching?  




From GrahamD  Wed Feb 13 14:12:18 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 13:12:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D0D@mail.ripon.edu>

Money & poetry:  always a fascinating subject!  I know that Gwendolyn Brooks
was asking (actually, her agent was) about $3000 per reading a decade ago.
That was a little out of my league--at my college we had a $400 annual
poetry reading budget, as I recall.  No doubt GB got even more in recent
years.  

Folks like Heaney & Walcott, if you can get them at all, put their price
well above $10K.  The Nobel is definitely the gift that keeps giving.  So is
the Pulitzer, I've heard.  

Don't know for sure, but rumors are that Angelou's one of the most expensive
these days.  I have to say that she's worth it, too, based on my experience.
Both times I saw her she gave a great show, full of song and dance, and read
more Dunbar and Hughes than Angelou, thank goodness.  

Then there is the Robert Francis option.  He made most of his money from
poetry for decades.  Which meant that he had no car or telephone, grew much
of his own food, scrounged his furniture, and never went to New Orleans for
the AWP. . . .

David Graham (still available for a reasonable fee)

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================

> ----------
> From: 	Halvard Johnson
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, February 13, 2002 12:17 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	RE: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
> 
> Well, of course, we're not talking real money here, David. We're
> talking po biz, and Ginsberg was a master at self-promotion and
> could earn $10,000 per reading in his prime. My guess is that there
> are a couple nowadays who can make that (even in current dollars)--
> Angelou? June Jordan? Others?
> 
> Bly, as I recall, made his living by doing translations, long before he
> could draw as a reader of his own work. Merwin? Don't know.
> Money of his own? 
> 
> Lynda and I heard the Juilliard Quartet play Elliott Carter's String 
> Quartet #5 the other night, and Carter himself (at 95!) gave a little
> lecture before the performance. He's still going strong, doing major
> work every year, and there's been family money (those little liver
> pills, I've heard--not to mention a wife with money) to keep him
> "job"-free for his entire career.
> 
> Hal
>    
> {    All things are relative, of course, and I'll bet Ginsberg never made
> what
> {    the folks in Silicon Valley would consider real money.  (My brother
> the tax
> {    lawyer once informed me that the pennies I've earned as a poet are
> {    classified as "hobby income.")  
> {    
> {    There are other poets who've made significant money (in po-biz terms)
> apart
> {    from teaching. Many on the reading circuit--supported indirectly by
> the
> {    academic world, of course, just as Ginsberg was.
> {    
> {    Robert Bly, for instance--who even before he transformed into Iron
> Robert
> {    made most his income by giving readings.  Donald Hall.  Gwendolyn
> Brooks.
> {    And didn't W. S. Merwin survive for decades without teaching?  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From Rsgwynn1  Wed Feb 13 16:26:05 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:26:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
Message-ID: <39.2284b6a9.299c33ed@cs.com>

There was a NYTimes article titled Allen Ginsberg, Millionaire, a few years 
before he died.  He had recently sold his papers to Columbia for a huge sum.
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From halvard  Wed Feb 13 16:46:54 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 16:46:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
In-Reply-To: <39.2284b6a9.299c33ed@cs.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEDMEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Yes, and he was one of those generous millionaires too. When panhandled
he'd sign his name on a piece of paper and tell the recipient he could
peddle
it for at least $25.

Hal     "Beware the bomb concealed when
            a poet is being pleasant."
                              --Richard Eder, NY Times
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


  -----Original Message-----
  From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
  Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 4:26 PM
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"


  There was a NYTimes article titled Allen Ginsberg, Millionaire, a few
years before he died.  He had recently sold his papers to Columbia for a
huge sum.
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From JforJames  Wed Feb 13 18:11:18 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 18:11:18 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?new=20film:=20Pi=F1ero=20?=
Message-ID: <de.225900ec.299c4c96@aol.com>

Pi?ero

Director: Leon Ichaso
Country: USA
Year: 2001
Time: 100 minutes
Film Types: Colour/35mm
Producer: John Penotti, Fisher Stevens, Tim Williams
Screenplay: Leon Ichaso
Cinematography: Claudio Chea
Editor: David Tedeschi
Production Designer: Sharon Lomofsky
Sound: Andy Edelman, Ira Speigel, Rob Fernandez
Music: Kip Hanrahan
Principal Cast: Benjamin Bratt, Talisa Soto, Giancarlo Esposito, Rita Moreno, 
Mandy Patinkin

Miguel Pi?ero rose to prominence in New York in the mid-seventies as a poet, 
playwright and actor whose stinging prose and passionate persona spoke 
directly to the experience of the city?s Puerto Rican populace. A co-founder 
of the influential Nuyorican Poets Caf?, his work was an inspiration to 
Latinos, blacks and people of various ethnic backgrounds subsisting in the 
lower classes of New York society but desperate to achieve some level of 
self-expression. Today, his urban poetry is recognized as a precursor to rap 
and hip hop.

Leon Ichaso?s enthralling biography traces the life of this controversial 
artist. The film adopts a highly impressionistic style and eschews a 
traditional linear narrative in favour of a dynamic, freewheeling 
stream-of-consciousness approach that leaps from one life experience to 
another, perfectly capturing Pi?ero?s charismatic personality and whirlwind 
lifestyle. Raised by an abusive father who abandons the family when he?s 
still a child, Pi?ero (Benjamin Bratt) grows into a life of petty crime and 
eventually turns to drug dealing and addiction. After serving time in 
Sing-Sing, he develops his prison experiences into the highly acclaimed 1974 
play ?Short Eyes?, which wins seven Tony nominations and establishes him as 
a rising star.

Infinitely uncomfortable with his new celebrity status, his personal charisma 
more volatile than endearing, he retreats to the comfort of the streets. 
Seeking solace with his girlfriend Sugar (Talisa Soto) and his long-time 
friend Miguel Algarin (Giancarlo Esposito) ? a university literature 
professor and fellow co-founder of the Nuyorican Caf? ? Pi?ero does guest 
spots on TV shows like ?Kojak? and continues writing poetry. But his star 
fades quickly as his writing disciple overtakes him on Broadway and his 
affair with drugs begins to threaten his life.

Benjamin Bratt?s harrowing and electric performance anchors the film in place 
as the narrative seamlessly wends from one time period to the next. Never 
losing touch with its thematic concerns, Pi?ero relies less on plot and more 
on its remarkable ability to provide the viewer with an emotional investment 
in the artist?s own experiences.

? Mich?le Maheux
    
    
    
    

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From DICK  Wed Feb 13 18:21:45 2002
From: DICK (DICK at watson.ibm.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 02 18:21:45 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] NY Review of Books article by Simic
Message-ID: <200202132337.g1DNbAK39220@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com>

Simic's review of Collins' "Sailing..." and Tate's "Memoir of
the Hawk" pointed out that each is distinctive in his own way,
not following the various trends in American poetry of the last
several decades. He says Collins is quite "literary" (not so
convincingly, I think), likes to start with the familiar and
end up in the strange, is very imaginative. He quotes in full
"Consolation" and "Afternoon with Irish Cows."  His review of
Collins is quite favorable, but also criticizes that often
his poem is completely controlled from beginning to end.

Where Collins has his own voice that he always uses, Tate has
many different voices, takes on multiple personalities, likes
to "write a poem out of nothing." Simic includes the full text
of several of Tate's poems, including a couple of prose poems.

It's not a revelatory article, but at a very high level of
conversation about the two poets.  Simic points out the
differences between them.

Richard



From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 00:25:59 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:25:59 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D0B@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6B4A63.DF2BEC75@earthlink.net>


Graham, David wrote:

> And didn't W. S. Merwin survive for decades without teaching?

Ah, but wasn't at least some of that courtesy of the BBC?  As I recall from
some of the Plath biographies, the Merwins were supposedly a sort of model for
the Plath-Hughes menage in earning money as working poets without having to
teach, and the BBC was a large part of that.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 00:29:15 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 22:29:15 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEDIEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6B4B26.3DAB1D98@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:

> Merwin? Don't know.
> Money of his own?

I just looked up Peter Davison's "Fading Smile," and Merwin was able to move to
Lacan (France) with his then-wife Dido, purchasing a rather decrepit farmhouse,
with a legacy from an aunt.  Thus did he escape 1) American academia and 2) the
slightly more bohemian solution of tutoring Robert Graves' son William.  Would that
we all had such aunties.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From JBCM2  Thu Feb 14 09:49:19 2002
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 09:49:19 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
Message-ID: <136.8f8eadf.299d286f@aol.com>

In a message dated 02/14/2002 1:27:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes:


> I just looked up Peter Davison's "Fading Smile," and Merwin was able to move 
> to
> Lacan (France) with his then-wife Dido, purchasing a rather decrepit 
> farmhouse,
> with a legacy from an aunt.  Thus did he escape 1) American academia and 2) 
> the
> slightly more bohemian solution of tutoring Robert Graves' son William.  
> Would that
> we all had such aunties.
> 
> 

Merwin also has a big spread on Maui.  I lived up the road from him there for 
about a year, and I used to see him out walking frequently.  I understand 
he's lived there for years...

joe brennan...
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From hruggier  Thu Feb 14 11:28:23 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:28:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Hallmarketing Poetry
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86D03@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6BE5A7.914A24B5@localnet.com>

Is hallmarky better or worse than Hallmurky?

You know that Bill Stafford did a guest stint at Hallmark U (big bucks too).

Helen

"Graham, David" wrote:

> I think far more people have been reading Angelou than Collins for some time
> now, just as more read Edgar Guest than Robert Frost.
>
> I'm just surprised at Collins's frankness at saying aloud what most poets
> think.  Kind of interesting to have a poet laureate willing to be cranky in
> public, isn't it?
>
> I guess he could have pushed it one step further, and noted that Angelou's
> pre-Hallmark verse is, well, rather Hallmarky.
>
> David Graham
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
>
> > ----------
> > From:         odysseus34
> > Reply To:     new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent:         Monday, February 11, 2002 8:01 PM
> > To:   new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject:      Re: [New-Poetry] Hallmarketing Poetry
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob Grumman wrote:
> >
> > > Is it permissible to accuse Billy Collins of sour grapes?
> > >
> > > I think being Hallmark's first inhouse-poet is better than being
> > > the U.S. Poet Laureate, myself.  It's certainly no step down for
> > Angelou.
> >
> > One could indeed argue that by being Hallmark's Poet she is now a sort of
> > unofficial US Poet Laureate.  Surely far more people will now read her
> > poems
> > than Billy's.  That is, one could argue this, but I would not, because
> > like Bob
> > I say nothing but nice things.
> >
> > Moira Russell
> > Seattle, WA
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Thu Feb 14 11:20:44 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:20:44 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
Message-ID: <da.13a64dc5.299d3ddc@aol.com>

Of course if you don't have independent means then the 
measure of security one gives up as a  "non-working" poet 
takes a tremendous amount of resourcefulness, self-discipline
and will.
Or in some cases the complete lack of will...or just.not 
giving a damn about what society values. In any case, 
there is something admirable about that choice to be 
an artist and only an artist. 
Even with the means, it takes some amount of courage 
in our culture to be a "unemployed" poet. The lingering influence 
of the Protestant work-ethic can still be felt psychically, if 
not in the attitudes of friends and family. This is especially true 
for those poets unable to point to major awards or honors 
they've garnered by their "work." 
Longing to be a layabout poet.
Finnegan


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From Jholmes  Thu Feb 14 17:32:25 2002
From: Jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 15:32:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <sc6bd8ac.024@athena.boisestate.edu>

Merwin is hardly the landed gentry. He, too, did an enormous amount of
translation work to survive: The Poem of the Cid, The Song of Roland,
Rollain, Neruda, Mandelstam, Chamfort, Euripides.



From gudding  Thu Feb 14 17:52:34 2002
From: gudding (Gudding)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:52:34 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
In-Reply-To: <sc6bd8ac.024@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020214165021.01f408b0@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>

Janet and others, You may be interested to know that Merwin is currently 
working on a translation of "Sir Gawain." This is straight from the horse's 
mouth, so to speak (he was in Oxford reading about 4 months back), and he 
will, yes, keep the bob and wheel.

Gabe

, Janet Holmes wrote:
>Merwin is hardly the landed gentry. He, too, did an enormous amount of
>translation work to survive: The Poem of the Cid, The Song of Roland,
>Rollain, Neruda, Mandelstam, Chamfort, Euripides.




From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 21:48:25 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:48:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Real Estate
References: <136.8f8eadf.299d286f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C76F6.22328769@earthlink.net>

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From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 21:54:18 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 19:54:18 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Sour grapes?"
References: <da.13a64dc5.299d3ddc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6C7856.FDD47C53@earthlink.net>

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From JBCM2  Thu Feb 14 23:03:07 2002
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:03:07 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet's Real Estate
Message-ID: <16e.8de5701.299de27b@aol.com>

In a message dated 02/14/2002 10:46:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes:


> I think he sold the house in Lacan before moving to Hawaii (for one thing it 
> might have been contested property in the divorce from Dido) but this 
> strikes me as wrong.  I don't remember if it was before or after he moved 
> to Hawaii that he became active in the ecological movement. I 
> 
> 

Well, he certainly became active in the ecological movement after he came to 
Maui.  The fellow we rented from had property that was above Merwin's, and 
this fellow had a nursery and used Roundup, which Merwin bitterly protested.  
Anyway, I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong with having a place 
on Maui, it's the most beautiful place I've ever been.  Every artist has to 
have his or her deal, and Merwin seems to have made out better than most.  
What's interesting to me about Merwin is that he figured out how to do what 
he wanted without being compromised by having to work in something unrelated. 
 Those of us who have gone down this path have usually found it a struggle...

joe brennan
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From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 22:11:32 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:11:32 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
References: <sc6bd8ac.024@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6C7C5E.1A4301FA@earthlink.net>


Janet Holmes wrote:

> Merwin is hardly the landed gentry. He, too, did an enormous amount of
> translation work to survive: The Poem of the Cid, The Song of Roland,
> Rollain, Neruda, Mandelstam, Chamfort, Euripides.

True, he wasn't on the same economic rung of the ladder as, say, Merrill,
and the farm in Lacan was apparently quite beat-up, it cost the entire
inheritance and prices were a lot lower then (if I recall correctly).
But I think part of the original point was that he is not someone who has
ever had to take a regular job to survive, and while he might not have
been very well-off, he was able to make a good living.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 22:16:33 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 20:16:33 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020214165021.01f408b0@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6C7D8A.4E27F938@earthlink.net>


Gudding wrote:

> Janet and others, You may be interested to know that Merwin is currently
> working on a translation of "Sir Gawain." This is straight from the horse's
> mouth, so to speak (he was in Oxford reading about 4 months back), and he
> will, yes, keep the bob and wheel.
>
> Gabe
>
> , Janet Holmes wrote:
> >Merwin is hardly the landed gentry. He, too, did an enormous amount of
> >translation work to survive: The Poem of the Cid, The Song of Roland,
> >Rollain, Neruda, Mandelstam, Chamfort, Euripides.

This may sound extremely sour but while doing a forty-hour-a-week clerical gig
to pay rent cat food student loans etc. "doing an enormous amount of
translation work to survive" sounds pretty damned delightful to me.  Stuck
translating the Cid?  Woe!  Philip Larkin was a librarian for God knows how
long in Hull.  Stevens was a lawyer or a businessman, I always forget which.
How many others have there been?  (Poets working _jobs,_ not in academia.)

//end sour note//

Moira Russell (still waiting for the ultimate suite of poems about office
work)
Seattle, WA




From halvard  Fri Feb 15 00:34:56 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:34:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
In-Reply-To: <3C6C7D8A.4E27F938@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEFFEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    Philip Larkin was a librarian for God knows how
{    long in Hull.  Stevens was a lawyer or a businessman, I always forget which.
{    How many others have there been?  (Poets working _jobs,_ not in academia.)

Too late to work up a full list, Moira, but Stevens was in insurance (as I recall),
and then there was W. C. Williams, who was a pediatrician. Ferlinghetti owned
and ran a bookstore (City Lights), became also a publisher. James Laughlin
(of Pittsburgh steel $$) was a publisher. Weldon Kees was a painter, a jazz
pianist, a film maker, etc. Much too late, and there's quite a bunch.

Hal            Visit Our Other Location

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From odysseus34  Thu Feb 14 23:55:30 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:55:30 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEFFEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6C94B2.B4FD1575@earthlink.net>

> Too late to work up a full list, Moira, but Stevens was in insurance (as I recall),
> and then there was W. C. Williams, who was a pediatrician. Ferlinghetti owned
> and ran a bookstore (City Lights), became also a publisher. James Laughlin
> (of Pittsburgh steel $$) was a publisher. Weldon Kees was a painter, a jazz
> pianist, a film maker, etc. Much too late, and there's quite a bunch.
>
> Hal

Well, painter and bookstore-owner and publisher not quite what I was thinking of.
More poets who held down full-time or more jobs, like Stevens.  Maybe I'm just looking
for inspiration (not necessarily poets who wore many artistic hats).

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From antrobin  Fri Feb 15 03:07:16 2002
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 00:07:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEFFEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004801c1b5f7$eae350c0$1daeefd8@0021936706>

Stevens was a lawyer who worked for an insurance firm.

He wrote poems while walking around a lake, watching geese, eating cinnamon
buns.

And Hemingway kicked his ass in Key West.

Tony
***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be
better left alone."
Kenneth Koch

***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in
us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"


----- Original Message -----
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:34 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Merwin


>
> {    Philip Larkin was a librarian for God knows how
> {    long in Hull.  Stevens was a lawyer or a businessman, I always forget
which.
> {    How many others have there been?  (Poets working _jobs,_ not in
academia.)
>
> Too late to work up a full list, Moira, but Stevens was in insurance (as I
recall),
> and then there was W. C. Williams, who was a pediatrician. Ferlinghetti
owned
> and ran a bookstore (City Lights), became also a publisher. James Laughlin
> (of Pittsburgh steel $$) was a publisher. Weldon Kees was a painter, a
jazz
> pianist, a film maker, etc. Much too late, and there's quite a bunch.
>
> Hal            Visit Our Other Location
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From Arielpf123  Fri Feb 15 06:44:20 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:44:20 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <22.23b30a5a.299e4e94@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/14/02 11:14:27 PM, odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes:

<< Stevens was a lawyer or a businessman, I always forget which.
How many others have there been?  (Poets working _jobs,_ not in academia.)

//end sour note//

Moira Russell (still waiting for the ultimate suite of poems about office
work) >>

Stevens was an insurance executive at Aetna in Hartford.  I  worked at Aetna 
for 8 1/2 years, and I don't know how he did it...(wrote and worked there at 
the same time). They've said few at work knew he was a famous poet...and that 
he used to write poems and shove them in his desk drawer.   I think it must 
have taken some kind of mind-split.  Because I remember feeling as if it were 
almost impossible to write a poem while working there....the air was so dry, 
the thinking of another kind altogether.  I've tried to write even one poem 
about the place and haved failed. A suite seems impossible...though I'm sure 
someone will find a way to do it.

Pat Fargnoli



From JforJames  Fri Feb 15 09:36:29 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:36:29 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] POETRY SALZBURG REVIEW No. 2
Message-ID: <4b.186315ac.299e76ed@aol.com>

Date:    Wed, 13 Feb 2002 11:35:21 +0100
From:    "Wolfgang.Goertschacher at sbg.ac.at" <Wolfgang.Goertschacher at SBG.AC.AT>
Subject: POETRY SALZBURG REVIEW No. 2

POETRY SALZBURG REVIEW No. 2 (Winter -
Spring 2001/02), 170 pp
 
New Poetry by:
 
Kazim Ali, Fred Beake, Guy Birchard, Anne Born, WilliamCirocco,
Bethany Edstrom, Peter Finch, David W.H. Grubb, Lee Harwood,Jeff Hilson,
Byron Kanoti, Aileen Kelly, Virginia Konchan, AlexisLykiard, Richard
Martin, Susan Maurer, Brian Mornar, Sharon Morris, JamesNorcliffe,
Propertius, Elizabeth Robinson, Georgia Scott, MichaelShcherba, Marie
Slaight, Alyson Torns, Bob Vance, Volker von T=F6rne, DanielWeissbort,
Vassilis Zambaras, Magdalena Zurawaski
 
 
 
Jeffrey Carson on John Heath-Stubbs; D. M. de Silva onChristopher
Middleton and Paul Celan; Lisa Fishman on Magdalena Zurawskiand Eileen
Myles; Stevie Krayer on Nicholas Bielby and Wendy Bardsley;Derrick
McClure on William Soutar / Heidelinde Pr=FCger; MichaelPalmer; Claire
Powell on Peter Finch; Heidelinde Pr=FCger on TheKeekin-Gless;
Glyn
 
Pursglove on Stefan Themerson.
 
 
 
Subscriptions (2 issues) =A3 9.00 / Euro 15.00 / US$ 20.00 
 
cheques payable to WOLFGANG G=D6RTSCHACHER
 
Address: University of Salzburg, Dept. of English andAmerican Studies,
Akademiestr. 24, A-5020 Salzburg, AUSTRIA, 
 
 
 
or David Miller, 6 Waynflete House, Union Street, London,SE1 0LE, GB,
 
 
or Lisa Fishman, Department of English, Beloit College,Beloit, WI 53511,
USA,
 
 
 
Forthcoming: POETRY SALZBURG No. 3 (Summer 2002)
 
A long interview with Allen Fisher (by Scott Thurston),essay by Scott
Thurston on Allen Fisher, news poems by Allen Fisher, TessaRansford,
Clive Faust, Matthew Geden, Georgia Scott, John Muckle,Sheila Hamilton,
Gael Turnbull, among others. 
 
Poetry Salzburg
Review
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From halvard  Fri Feb 15 10:04:37 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:04:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
In-Reply-To: <22.23b30a5a.299e4e94@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEFJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

  
{    Stevens was an insurance executive at Aetna in Hartford.  I  worked at Aetna 
{    for 8 1/2 years, and I don't know how he did it...(wrote and worked there at 
{    the same time). They've said few at work knew he was a famous poet...and that 
{    he used to write poems and shove them in his desk drawer.   I think it must 
{    have taken some kind of mind-split.  Because I remember feeling as if it were 
{    almost impossible to write a poem while working there....the air was so dry, 
{    the thinking of another kind altogether.  I've tried to write even one poem 
{    about the place and haved failed. A suite seems impossible...though I'm sure 
{    someone will find a way to do it.
{    
{    Pat Fargnoli

Did Stevens write any poems *about* Aetna?

Hal     "Beware the bomb concealed when 
            a poet is being pleasant."
                              --Richard Eder, NY Times
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html





From JforJames  Fri Feb 15 10:09:47 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:09:47 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <b8.22df2665.299e7ebb@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 6:45:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:
> Stevens was an insurance executive at Aetna in Hartford.  I  worked at Aetna 
> for 8 1/2 years, and I don't know how he did it...(wrote and worked there 
> at 
> the same time). They've said few at work knew he was a famous poet...and 
> that 
> he used to write poems and shove them in his desk drawer.   I think it must 
> have taken some kind of mind-split.  Because I remember feeling as if it 
> were 
> almost impossible to write a poem while working there....the air was so 
> dry, 
> the thinking of another kind altogether.  I've tried to write even one poem 
> about the place and haved failed. A suite seems impossible...though I'm 
> sure 
> someone will find a way to do it.
> 

Pat,
Stevens actually worked at The Hartford (stag logo) Insurance Co...in the same
part of town. I'm involved in a project now that will place 13 granite 
markers, each
engraved with a section from 13 Ways Of Looking At A Blackbird, running from
The Hartford grounds along Asylum Ave to the Westerly Terrrace property
(Stevens' former/last home). This will be known as the Wallace Stevens Walk...
a stretch he walked pretty much everyday of his working life to and fro the 
office. Many of his later poems were composed while he walked...so the story 
goes. 
Incidentally, in the biographies and letters I've seen there doesn't seem to 
be 
any indication that Stevens regretted his life as VP of an insurance company 
(he had a law degree but he didn't practice law per se...he did bonding work 
for The Hartford which often involves contract drafting and claims that come 
out of litigation). In fact I think he  was rather pleased with himself that 
he'd 
garnered such a reputation while not being fully engaged in a literary life.
Finnegan 

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From halvard  Fri Feb 15 10:16:16 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:16:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems re Office Work: Kenneth Fearing, "Now"
In-Reply-To: <3C6C7D8A.4E27F938@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEFJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Here's a start for you, Moira. There's a lot more in Fearing, I suspect,
but this will do for starters.


Now

Now that we know life:
Breakfast in the morning; office and theater and sleep; no
	memory;
Only desire and profit are real;
Now that we know life in our own way,

There is no war, no death,
There are no doubts, no terrors, and we make no mistakes;
There is a forest of bones in the earth but above it, now there
	is peace;
The fury is gone;
The purposes are gone;
For a little while, the agony is gone;
We have our own thoughts, we know life in our own way,
The world is quiet and green--

As it is where bubbles rise in the waters of swamps;
Where bubbles of gas rise and break among the reeds;
And the reeds are green;
And the frogs are loud, the water is warm where the bubbles rise;
The reeds are still;
The reeds are green, the water is warm, the sky is blue.

--Kenneth Fearing

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html





From halvard  Fri Feb 15 10:30:04 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:30:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems re Office Work: Kenneth Fearing, "Portrait (1)"
In-Reply-To: <22.23b30a5a.299e4e94@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEFKEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Here's another:

Portrait (1)

William Lowell is drunk again.
He has escaped the skull-faced men that whisper and wait.
	Forgotten the filed documents.
Now there is a reason for his smooth desk, for the rustling
	papers and white corridors.
Now there is a reason for his thousand defeats.
There is a reason for having gone with the whores, lain awake
	in black rooms, walked through vacant streets, talked to
	cats in deserted halls.
If the world knew, there are reasons for having lied and
	betrayed and cringed.

If the world knew his life,
Knew the hundred forces seeking to destroy him;
If there were an eye of God to see him as he is, know his
	motives in spite of evasion and compromise,
See him alone in desolate rooms, broken by remorse--

William Lowell, born under blue skies,
Child dreaming under broad pillars of sunlight rising beyond
	the clouds,
No fever then, no profane dreams, no skulls following him in
	roaring subway tunnels to stare through his eyes into a
	soul on fire,
Peace, and no crazy venom in those lost days--

If the world knew,
There is a reason for his thousand failures, vows, treacheries,
	lies, escapes,
And if the world would hear him,
William Lowell would be at peace with all mankind for one
	hour before the white corridors and echoing streets and
	staring skulls knew him no more,
William Lowell, the child of blue skies.

--Kenneth Fearing


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From Thom424  Fri Feb 15 10:42:25 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:42:25 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Office Poems
Message-ID: <193.24d18fb.299e8661@aol.com>

??

You might find this recent collection of some interest. I've included a few 
of the reviews from amazon.com:

A Working Girl Can't Win : And Other Poems by Deborah Garrison


"Every couple of years, some unlucky soul gets designated as the Poet for 
People Who Hate Poetry, and now it seems to be Deborah Garrison's turn. It's 
easy to see why: she gets the voice of the late 20th-century New Yorker to 
perfection, in all its kvetchy, melancholic glory. At times it's like hearing 
George Costanza channeling Emily Dickinson:

I'm never going to sleep
with Martin Amis
or anyone famous.

"Garrison also tends to sidestep metaphysics in favor of more accessible 
subject matter. That means love (mostly unrequited) and work (mostly 
unbearable, particularly for a working girl in a testosterone-driven office, 
wearied by the appearance of yet "another alpha male-- / a man's man, a 
dealmaker"). No wonder Garrison seems so appealing. And no wonder her 
publisher has capitalized on this appeal by packaging her book in such a 
sleek, chic jacket. It would be a mistake, however, to write her off as one 
more neurotic light versifier. Her metaphoric agility can take you by 
surprise: note the Atlantic breeze coming "up out of the surf / like a dog 
gone swimming, / slagging sand and spray every which way / and making the 
news unreadable." So, too, can the note of resignation that undergirds so 
many of Garrison's vignettes-in-verse, giving even her most featherweight 
performances an odd, unchic intensity." --This text refers to the Hardcover 
edition.
                                *****

Also, one of my all-time fav-o-rite office poems, Roethke's "Dolor."

I have known the inexorable sadness of pencils,
Neat in their boxes, dolor of pad and paper-weight,
All the misery of manilla folders and mucilage,
desolation in immaculate public places,
Lonely reception room, lavatory, switchboard,
The unalterable pathos of basin and pitcher,
Ritual of multigraph, paper-clip, comma,
Endless duplication of lives and objects.
And I have seen dust from the walls of institutions,
Finer than flour, alive, more dangerous than silica,
Sift, almost invisible, through long afternoons of tedium,
dropping fine film on nails and delicate eyebrows,
Glazing pale white hair, the duplicate grey standard faces.

                             *****

That "misery of manilla folders and mucilage"  gets me every the time. I 
don't think I'll go to the office today.

Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN






From paul.lake  Fri Feb 15 10:43:14 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:43:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
In-Reply-To: <3C6C7D8A.4E27F938@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B89288B2.269C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/14/02 9:16 PM, odysseus34 at odysseus34 at earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> 
> Gudding wrote:
> 
>> Janet and others, You may be interested to know that Merwin is currently
>> working on a translation of "Sir Gawain." This is straight from the horse's
>> mouth, so to speak (he was in Oxford reading about 4 months back), and he
>> will, yes, keep the bob and wheel.
>> 
>> Gabe
>> 
>> , Janet Holmes wrote:
>>> Merwin is hardly the landed gentry. He, too, did an enormous amount of
>>> translation work to survive: The Poem of the Cid, The Song of Roland,
>>> Rollain, Neruda, Mandelstam, Chamfort, Euripides.
> 
> This may sound extremely sour but while doing a forty-hour-a-week clerical gig
> to pay rent cat food student loans etc. "doing an enormous amount of
> translation work to survive" sounds pretty damned delightful to me.  Stuck
> translating the Cid?  Woe!  Philip Larkin was a librarian for God knows how
> long in Hull.  Stevens was a lawyer or a businessman, I always forget which.
> How many others have there been?  (Poets working _jobs,_ not in academia.)
> 
> //end sour note//
> 
> Moira Russell (still waiting for the ultimate suite of poems about office
> work)
> Seattle, WA
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Moira, check out Dana Gioia's essay in Can Poetry Matter on "Business and
Poety," which contains a long list of poets with real (nonacadaemic) jobs.

Paul Lake




From JforJames  Fri Feb 15 11:19:54 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:19:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Hell With Love
Message-ID: <8d.13f06245.299e8f2a@aol.com>

How do you mend a broken heart? With 75 poems 
Thu Feb 14, 5:56 AM ET 
Bob Minzesheimer USA TODAY 

The Hell With Love: Poems to Mend a Broken Heart began with a broken heart. 
  
It belonged to Mary Esselman, who struggled with a two-year, 
on-again/off-again breakup with a guy. ''We'll call him Dick,'' she says.

When it was finally over, ''I raged, I cried, I defiantly faked being fine,'' 
but what ultimately helped was advice from an older friend, Elizabeth Ash 
V??lez, who read poetry to her.

Yes, poetry.

Her first selection was Mark Doty's Tiara, which is about a man dying of AIDS 
complications: Peter died in a paper tiara/cut from a book of princess paper 
dolls.

An unusual choice, Esselman concedes, ''but it's really about how we must 
take risks in this world. It's the only way to live.''

Other poems followed: Shakespeare and John Donne, which, Esselman says, ''put 
me into good company and helped remind me that I wasn't the only one to go 
through this.''

The two women met 17 years ago when Esselman, a graduate student in English, 
worked as an assistant for V??lez, who teaches at Georgetown University in 
Washington, D.C.

''We're close friends,'' V??lez says, ''but because of our ages (she's 56, 
Esselman is 39), I feel a little motherly toward Mary.''

Plus, V??lez says, after 32 years of marriage, she has learned that ''there's 
no happiness that you don't pay for.''

Believers in what they call ''the transformative power of literature,'' they 
compiled The Hell With Love (Warner, $14.95), calling it ''literary therapy 
for the heartbroken.''

They grouped 75 poems into eight ''emotional stages'' of a breakup.

The book begins with Rage, ''when hatred isn't strong enough,'' moves on to 
False Hope, ''when you're convinced you can get back together'' and concludes 
with Moving On, ''when you rediscover the world and its joys.''

Poets range from William Butler Yeats to Billy Collins to V??lez's husband, 
Larry V??lez, a speechwriter at the Department of Health and Human Services 
who has, she says, ''the soul of a poet.''

It was published in time for Valentine's Day, but V??lez sees it ''as bigger 
than that,'' as a reminder that poetry can be accessible and help people 
through all kinds of loss and grief.

The title comes from a line in Lies by Yevgeny Yevtushenko: sorrow comes, 
hardship happens/The hell with it.

But V??lez says it's meant to apply to ''the romantic cultural icon that's 
impossible to maintain. We're not saying 'To hell with real love.' ''

As if to prove that, there's a postscript that could be written in Hollywood. 
Two years ago, upon selling the book, they celebrated with friends, and 
Esselman, ''not expecting to meet anyone,'' met Greg Roberts, the friend of a 
friend. Five months later, they were engaged.

At their wedding last July, V??lez read aloud one of the poems in the book, 
May Swenson's sensual and luscious Strawberrying, with a line about fruit: 
ripe to bursting, they might be hearts.




From grahamd  Fri Feb 15 11:37:07 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:37:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
Message-ID: <200202151635.g1FGZ1c00533@mx14.mx.voyager.net>

If you're wondering how to manage a poetic life and a work life without
killing yourself--be sure to tell me when you figure it out!

But if you're looking for poems about working life (apart from academics),
the literature seems vast.  (Isn't there a fairly recent anthology -- title
is escaping me--from Pittsburgh?)   

Many, however, seem to be retrospective--e.g. the entire career of Philip
Levine, who writes beautifully of factory work long past, like Joyce in
Paris writing of Dublin.  

A number of contemporary names spring immediately to mind.  Ted Kooser, Bob
Hicok, David Ignatow, Hayden Carruth, William Bronk, Dana Gioia, Thomas
Lynch, Tina Kelley, Ginger Andrews--all do or did spend a considerable time
writing poems while working outside academe.  Seems I can't think of many
women at the moment, but I'm sure there are quite a few.

I recently discovered the work of Michael Chitwood, a journalist in North
Carolina who writes fascinatingly (Levine-fashion) about work in the textile
mills of his past.

B. H. Fairchild's *The Art of the Lathe* is a terrific book studded with
work poems.

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




From jdavis  Fri Feb 15 11:57:28 2002
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:57:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
In-Reply-To: <200202151635.g1FGZ1c00533@mx14.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202151152430.9617-100000@panix1.panix.com>

No offense, but I find this line of discussion silly, as if to be a poet
automatically meant you were destined for a) academia or b) bohemia. We
all think of Stevens not because he worked for a living but because he was
damn successful both at work and in verse. Or, being a white guy who
studied law at Harvard doesn't seem to have hurt one's career arc in the
insurance industry in the Northeast in the mid-20th century. But after
all, it wasn't as if he was *running* the company. And it's not as if all
of us office poets are clerks, either.

I love talking about the rich and famous as much as the next American
gambler, but can we have some perspective here? David Graham! the balance
you seek is there all the time as you walk around; it's in your head.

Jordan Davis




From Thom424  Fri Feb 15 11:59:55 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:59:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
Message-ID: <62.1aecd8c9.299e988b@aol.com>

Peter OrseicK & William Coles: WORKING CLASSICS: POEMS OF INDUSTRIAL LIFE 
(1990) and FOR A LIVING: THE POETRY OF WORK (1995), both from University of 
Illinois Press.
Janet Zandy also edited a couple of working-class women's anthologies, one of 
which is CALLING HOME: WORKING-CLASS WOMEN'S  WRITING (Rutgers, 1990). 



From grahamd  Fri Feb 15 12:09:45 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:09:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
Message-ID: <200202151707.g1FH7dw54608@mx14.mx.voyager.net>

Jordan, many thanks for the career advice.

Since you so kindly ask, here's some perspective on the issue in question.

For One Moment

You take the dollar 
and hand it to the fellow beside you 
who turns and gives it to the next one 
down the line. The world being round, 
you stand waiting, smoking and lifting 
a cup of coffee to your lips, talking 
of seasonal weather and hinting 
at problems. The dollar returns, 
the coffee spills to the ground 
in your hurry. You have the money 
in one hand, a cup in the other, 
a cigarette in your mouth, 
and for one moment have forgotten 
what it is you have to do, 
your hair grey, your legs weakened 
from long standing.

--David Ignatow
-------------------------------------

Notes for a Lecture

I will teach you to become American, my students: 
take a turn at being enigmatic, to yourselves especially.
You work at a job and write poetry at night. 
You write about working. Married, 
you write about love.

I speak of kisses and mean quarrels,
the kiss brings the quarrel to mind, 
of differences for their own sakes.

Did I ever think, going to bed,
a woman beside me would be no more uplifting 
than a five-dollar raise? Since then 
I've been uplifted in bed a hundred times 
and but once raised in pay,
and that once has not been forgotten.

Take a broken whiskey bottle,
set it on top of your head
and dance.  You have a costume,
you have meaning.

--David Ignatow




========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: Jordan Davis <jdavis at panix.com>
>To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
>Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002, 10:57 AM
>

>No offense, but I find this line of discussion silly, as if to be a poet
>automatically meant you were destined for a) academia or b) bohemia. We
>all think of Stevens not because he worked for a living but because he was
>damn successful both at work and in verse. Or, being a white guy who
>studied law at Harvard doesn't seem to have hurt one's career arc in the
>insurance industry in the Northeast in the mid-20th century. But after
>all, it wasn't as if he was *running* the company. And it's not as if all
>of us office poets are clerks, either.
>
>I love talking about the rich and famous as much as the next American
>gambler, but can we have some perspective here? David Graham! the balance
>you seek is there all the time as you walk around; it's in your head.
>
>Jordan Davis
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Rsgwynn1  Fri Feb 15 12:26:53 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:26:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <8a.1418e3da.299e9edd@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/15/2002 5:45:49 AM Central Standard Time, 
Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:


> Stevens was an insurance executive at Aetna in Hartford.  I  worked at Aetna 
> for 8 1/2 years, and I don't know how he did it...(wrote and worked there 
> at 
> the same time). They've said few at work knew he was a famous poet...and 
> that 
> he used to write poems and shove them in his desk drawer.   I think it must 
> have taken some kind of mind-split.  Because I remember feeling as if it 
> were 
> almost impossible to write a poem while working there....the air was so 
> dry, 
> the thinking of another kind altogether.  I've tried to write even one poem 
> about the place and haved failed. A suite seems impossible...though I'm 
> sure 
> someone will find a way to do it.
> 
> 

Stevens was with the Hartford, which may now be part of Aetna.  He was a 
lawyer specializing in surety bonds.  In his early years with the firm he 
traveled quite a bit.  He eventually became a vice-president.  Peter 
Brazeau's Parts of a World contains interviews with people who worked with 
Stevens and explains quite a bit about the degree to which his poetic 
activities overlapped with his business work.  The Stevens marriage was a 
distant one, and he did most of his writing at night.
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From halvard  Fri Feb 15 12:46:19 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:46:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: James Broughton, "Solaces of Senility"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEFOEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Solaces of Senility

Every morning I say hello to my whimseys
and scrub the scum of learning off my mind.
What can mental discipline guarantee me now?
I no longer need to be smartass or do the right thing.
I don't understand the world and never expect to.

Having outgrown embarrassment about my failings
I simply attend to the needs of my perversity
and let my instincts run as riot as they can.
When I go out wool-gathering I swathe myself
in whatever golden fleece has the snuggest fit.

On the whole I enjoy being harmoniously dingalingy.
It gives me time to practice on my essence.

--James Broughton

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From acgold01  Fri Feb 15 13:18:29 2002
From: acgold01 (Alan C Golding)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:18:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <sc6d0aaf.051@gwise.louisville.edu>

David raised the question of female "poets of work," and one such would
be Karen Brodine, cofounder of Kelsey Street Press, an office worker and
typesetter, and author (most relevantly for this thread) of Woman
Sitting at a Machine, Thinking (c. 1990).  Also, a certain amount of her
poetry of office life is in longer forms.



From grahamd  Fri Feb 15 13:39:07 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:39:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <200202151837.g1FIbxR65450@mx5.mx.voyager.net>

>Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
>stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and people in
>academia.

Yes.  The standard charge that so many poets have gravitated to academia
because it's an easy life is seldom made, oddly enough, by those who teach
multiple sections of freshman comp or sophomore lit surveys.  The reference
point is usually someone like Robert Lowell, drifting in once a week to
teach his graduate workshop.  Class will out.  

Academic life seems real enough to me, most of the time.  But not to all. 
During final exam week at Virginia Tech once many years back, I heard a
student leave the building and shout "I'm done with English for the rest of
my life!"  Alas, probably true. . . .

Way back when I was a hourly-wage-earning rather than a salaried employee, I
seemed to have a lot more time and energy to write poetry than I do these
days.  Of course, I was younger and more energetic then, so it's hard to
compare.  Most of us find it hard to earn a living while also maintaining
our so-called poetic careers, seems to me, no matter how we earn our bread. 

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: "Alan C Golding" <acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
>Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002, 12:18 PM
>

>David raised the question of female "poets of work," and one such would
>be Karen Brodine, cofounder of Kelsey Street Press, an office worker and
>typesetter, and author (most relevantly for this thread) of Woman
>Sitting at a Machine, Thinking (c. 1990).  Also, a certain amount of her
>poetry of office life is in longer forms.
>
>From an earlier era, one thinks of Muriel Rukeyser's 1930s work
>poetry--focused on miners, however, not office workers.
>
>Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
>stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and people in
>academia.  Nor do I quite understand why Ferlinghetti's bookstore
>management and Jay Laughlin's publishing somehow don't count as real
>jobs.  Next time I'm up at 2 a.m. grading 40 papers, I must remind
>myself I'm not really working.
>
>Semi-sourly, from the paradisal idleness of my academic laptop,
>
>Alan



From jdavis  Fri Feb 15 13:57:04 2002
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:57:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
In-Reply-To: <200202151837.g1FIbxR65450@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202151350020.11122-100000@panix1.panix.com>

Am I wrong to hear a politics stirring in this ressentiment?

So many poets gravitate to graduate school -- it's a who-moved-my-cheese
problem, though; my professor has a good life, or something like it, why
can't I get that too? I think it's analogous to the problem of poets
perpetuating dead/academic forms, and I'm including the New American
Poetries in there with the formalisms. I might even suggest, on a day a
little farther from the contest deadlines, that poets gravitate toward
UV-laminated perfect-bound volumes of 48-96 pp out of the same
powerful drive to imitate.

I myself plan to just line as many sarcophagi as I can with my verses.

Jordan


On Fri, 15 Feb 2002, David Graham wrote:

>Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
>stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and people in
>academia.

Yes.  The standard charge that so many poets have gravitated to academia
because it's an easy life is seldom made, oddly enough, by those who teach
multiple sections of freshman comp or sophomore lit surveys.  The reference
point is usually someone like Robert Lowell, drifting in once a week to
teach his graduate workshop.  Class will out.
..
..
Way back when I was a hourly-wage-earning rather than a salaried employee, I
seemed to have a lot more time and energy to write poetry than I do these
days.  Of course, I was younger and more energetic then, so it's hard to
compare.  Most of us find it hard to earn a living while also maintaining
our so-called poetic careers, seems to me, no matter how we earn our bread.


------







From halvard  Fri Feb 15 14:39:56 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:39:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <200202151837.g1FIbxR65450@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGCEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I'm surprised now not to have thought earlier of Bernadette Mayer
(one below), Gary Snyder (one below), and even Frank O'Hara,
who wrote poems on the fly, being an art critic and later a curator
at MOMA, and even Ashbery, who, I guess, earned his living
from art criticism and translation before taking up the ease of
academic living.

Hay for the Horses

He had driven half the night


From bobgrumman  Fri Feb 15 14:43:06 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:43:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
References: <200202151837.g1FIbxR65450@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <005501c1b658$fec6c020$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

> >Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
> >stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and people in
> >academia.

I'm sure good teachers work very hard--but they have huge amounts of time
off
that people with non-teaching jobs don't have.

                                                                            
         --Bob G.




From dbarone  Fri Feb 15 15:04:21 2002
From: dbarone (dbarone)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:04:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] stevens
Message-ID: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249008D2C3@sjcmail.sjc.edu>

Men Made Out Of Words

What should we be without the sexual myth,
The human revery or poem of death?

Castratos of moon-mash -- Life consists
Of propositions about life.  The human

Revery is a solitude in which
We compose these propositions, torn by dreams,

By the terrible incatations of defeats
And by the fear that defeats and dreams are one.

The whole race is a poet that writes down
The eccentric propositions of its fate.

-- Wallace Stevens






From paul.lake  Fri Feb 15 15:03:24 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:03:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and Work
Message-ID: <B892C5AC.26AC%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I've been a college teacher for a good long while now, though I'm one of
those who teach freshman and sophomore courses and have a heavy teaching
load.  Still, I'm grateful for long stretches of time off and time at the
end of the teaching day when other office workers are still on the clock and
I have an hour or two to write or revise.  Sometimes, though, I look back
fondly to a two year period when I'd dropped out of college and worked in
construction as a county pipe line inspector.  I worked in a little work
trailer on the job site all alone, with no supervision whatsoever.  The
laying of pipe is a pretty simple business and often slowed down for rocks
and water, so I had many hours in that trailer to read or do what I liked.
In retrospect, it might have been an ideal situation for a writer, though I
was eager to get out of it and go back to college.  I literally once went
nine months without seeing my boss except when I showed up at the office to
pick up my pay check. I got to work with a wide variety of people, too, and
heard some good stories, some of which eventually made it into poems.

Paul Lake 




From Cadaly  Fri Feb 15 15:11:50 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:11:50 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <91.1853d32e.299ec586@aol.com>

ron silliman
kit robinson
simon perchick
mary leader
janet holmes
shiela e. murphy

not all of these poets working (at least until a few years ago) outside the 
academy are working class, and I think that's a common blur; remember that 
monty python skit?

a real shortcoming of these anthologies is not those class assumptions, but 
that the anthologists are usually deeply flawed aquisitions editors:  how 
have they gone about finding these poems, these working poets?  many of the 
poets I listed have method, not content, common across professions &
they're not "academic poets"

so if the anthologists are out there looking for "academic poets" on the 
factory line, wow, they actually managed to find some people! amazing

Rgds,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From Arielpf123  Fri Feb 15 15:30:25 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:30:25 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <21.191c8e45.299ec9e1@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 10:14:01 AM, JforJames at aol.com writes:

<< Stevens actually worked at The Hartford (stag logo) Insurance Co... >>

oh damn...you're right....I'd spaced it.  Anyway The HArtford, AEtna, 
etc.....they are in the same corporate mode.

pat



From Arielpf123  Fri Feb 15 16:17:02 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:17:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <87.17a022aa.299ed4ce@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 10:05:45 AM, halvard at earthlink.net writes:

<< Did Stevens write any poems *about* Aetna? >>

heck since I had the wrong insurance company I think not!   And I think he 
kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance cronies knew 
about his poetry life.  However I'll bet some of his "thin men of Haddam"  
worked in insurance!

patf



From FanwoodJEL  Fri Feb 15 16:30:43 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:30:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <60.1b10b3b6.299ed803@aol.com>

Au contraire, Steven's work is smattered with sly allusions to his work (yes, 
including the thin men).  Well, the idea, if not the thing. Looks like I'll 
have to do some weekend digging.

Jeffrey Levine

In a message dated 2/15/2002 4:18:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:


> !   And I think he 
> kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance cronies 
> knew 
> about his poetry life.  However I'll bet some of his "thin men of Haddam"  
> worked in insurance!
> 


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From Rsgwynn1  Fri Feb 15 18:57:13 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:57:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <d0.2262228b.299efa59@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/15/2002 3:18:23 PM Central Standard Time, 
Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:


> 
> In a message dated 2/15/02 10:05:45 AM, halvard at earthlink.net writes:
> 
> << Did Stevens write any poems *about* Aetna? >>
> 
> heck since I had the wrong insurance company I think not!   And I think he 
> kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance cronies 
> knew 
> about his poetry life.  However I'll bet some of his "thin men of Haddam"  
> worked in insurance!
> 
> 

I've always wondered what would happen if one compared Stevens's business 
correspondence to his poetry.  I'm sure there must have been some interesting 
overlaps in the rhetoric, but apparently none of his business correspondence 
survives.
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From JforJames  Fri Feb 15 19:15:37 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:15:37 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Merwin
Message-ID: <74.18288ca6.299efea9@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 6:59:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes:

<< I've always wondered what would happen if one compared Stevens's business 
 correspondence to his poetry.  I'm sure there must have been some 
interesting 
 overlaps in the rhetoric, but apparently none of his business correspondence 
 survives.
  >>
Or in his drafting of insurance contracts/bonds...despite their legalese, 
some lovely felicities of language must reside therein.
Finnegan



From jholmes  Fri Feb 15 20:57:10 2002
From: jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:57:10 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] working (class) poetry
Message-ID: <sc6d5a0f.055@athena.boisestate.edu>

Catherine, thanks for the recognition. These arguments always piss me
off because I suspect they really arise from some benighted and
self-important executive's fear that his poetry isn't taken seriously
ENOUGH because he is (or was) a wealthy executive. Tant pis, I say. The
complaints don't seem to come from the grunt workers who write poems,
the ones who do what this elite crowd terms "real work."

In my experience, the only difference between academe and corporate life
(aside from the obvious economic one) is that at appraisal time, you get
credit for having written poetry if you're an academic. Those who posit
loads of free time for professors have no basis of comparison except
legend, methinks. And for those of us who've worked 9-2-5, believe me,
there's no romance in working your body to the point of exhaustion five
days a week. Paul, if you were cranking out the poems while working as a
county pipe line inspector, good for you. I didn't have the
qualifications for such a position. 

I'm grateful for good poetry; I don't give a shit what the poet was
doing to support the writing of it. Debates like these are ultimately
ridiculous. In fact, they're ridiculous from the beginning. They're not
about poetry.

Janet



From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 21:57:06 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:57:06 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
References: <b8.22df2665.299e7ebb@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6DCA80.77943DE@earthlink.net>

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From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:14:27 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:14:27 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
References: <sc6d0aaf.051@gwise.louisville.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6DCE8E.549A8859@earthlink.net>


Alan C Golding wrote:

> Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
> stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and people in
> academia.  Nor do I quite understand why Ferlinghetti's bookstore
> management and Jay Laughlin's publishing somehow don't count as real
> jobs.  Next time I'm up at 2 a.m. grading 40 papers, I must remind
> myself I'm not really working.

I don't think I said working in academia was not a "real" job, nor would I
(having had a brief stint as a teaching assistant years ago;  that was
probably the hardest job I've ever had).  But it seems to me people in
academia, or people who work in bookstores or publishing, have at least a
closer connection to the world of books and ideas than I do in my office
job.  When I bring books in to read on my lunch hour, I am invariably asked
if I am taking a class (I work at a University), and when I say no, the
asker is usually baffled as to why I would want to read something if I
weren't.  I doubt that would happen to someone managing a bookstore.
Working in an academic job is very hard, probably much harder than what I
do, but there's a certain emotional disconnect between what I do all day
every day and what I'm really interested in which makes it perhaps harder
to bear than an academic job.  (I didn't mean to imply translation is not
hard work, either.  But it would be delightfully hard.)

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:20:55 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:20:55 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
References: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202151350020.11122-100000@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <3C6DD011.A75A7E36@earthlink.net>


Jordan Davis wrote:

> Am I wrong to hear a politics stirring in this ressentiment?
>
> So many poets gravitate to graduate school -- it's a who-moved-my-cheese
> problem, though; my professor has a good life, or something like it, why
> can't I get that too?

None of the people I knew in graduate school thought our professors had a
ticket to "the good life."  They mainly seemed overworked, underpaid,
underinsured, went to far too many meetings, and either had to go on
sabbaticals or quit their jobs to concentrate on their own writing.  Many of
them complained privately about the politics of the department.  But we
realized at least it was a job that would allow you to stay in some contact
with the world of ideas and writing.  Then in about 1996 when I was due to
graduate, the job market started drying up to such an extreme most of the
people I knew are still trying to get adjunct jobs, and those who have them
count themselves lucky.

I'm a bit frustrated here because I think people are not reacting to what I
actually said.  Since I work in an office job that was why I discounted, to me,
such jobs like managing a bookstore and working at a publishing company (or for
that matter editing a literary magazine, teaching freshman comp, and so on, and
so on).  I don't think I said at any point "those are not real jobs and the
people who have them are not really working."  I did make a comment about
Merwin working on translations because, while I don't doubt he worked hard, it
is _not the same thing emotionally_ as working an eight-hour-a-day job doing
something you're not connected do.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:23:28 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:23:28 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGCEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6DD0AA.9FE090C1@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:

> I'm surprised now not to have thought earlier of Bernadette Mayer
> (one below), Gary Snyder (one below), and even Frank O'Hara,
> who wrote poems on the fly, being an art critic and later a curator
> at MOMA, and even Ashbery, who, I guess, earned his living
> from art criticism and translation before taking up the ease of
> academic living.

Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but how
on earth would you do it writing art criticism?

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:25:28 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:25:28 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
References: <200202151837.g1FIbxR65450@mx5.mx.voyager.net> <005501c1b658$fec6c020$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>
Message-ID: <3C6DD121.D96CB6A0@earthlink.net>


Bob Grumman wrote:

> > >Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
> > >stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and people in
> > >academia.
>
> I'm sure good teachers work very hard--but they have huge amounts of time
> off
> that people with non-teaching jobs don't have.

I'll probably be sorry I said this, but teachers also tend to have free hours
during the day which can be used for writing -- it's a lot more difficult for
me to write in the evening when I'm tired and there are chores to be down
around the house, but it's frustrating to only try writing on the weekends.
Difficult as teaching was I found the staggered hours a lot easier to cope
with than the feeling you have mortaged the entire day to someone else for a
paycheck.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From grahamd  Fri Feb 15 23:23:56 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:23:56 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Job Interview
Message-ID: <200202160421.g1G4Lao98019@mx4.mx.voyager.net>

I like the literature of work, myself, no matter what color the collar. 
Here's one by William Matthews.

Job Interview

    Think you, if Laura had been Petrarch's wife
    He would have written sonnets all his life?
     DON JUAN, III, 63-4

"Where do you see yourself five years from now?"
the eldest male member (or is "male member"
a redundancy?) of the committee
asked me. "Not here," I thought. A good thing I

speak fluent Fog. I craved that job like some
unappeasable, taunting woman.
What did Byron's friend Hobhouse say after
the wedding? "I felt as if I had buried

a friend." Each day I had that job I felt
the slack leash at my throat and thought what was
its other trick. Better to scorn the job than ask
what I had ever seen in it or think

what pious muck I'd ladled over
the committee. If they believed me, they
deserved me. As luck would have it, the job
lasted me almost but not quite five years.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:36:13 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:36:13 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems re Office Work: Kenneth Fearing, "Now"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEFJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6DD3A5.B3A4A4DA@earthlink.net>


Halvard Johnson wrote:

> Here's a start for you, Moira. There's a lot more in Fearing, I suspect,
> but this will do for starters.

(poem snipped)

That's really nice, Hal....thank you.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:38:22 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:38:22 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Office Poems
References: <193.24d18fb.299e8661@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6DD426.D56EF096@earthlink.net>


Thom424 at aol.com wrote:

> ?You might find this recent collection of some interest. I've included a few
> of the reviews from amazon.com:
>
> A Working Girl Can't Win : And Other Poems by Deborah Garrison

I lost interest in Deborah Garrison when the poetry collection was poufed (with
copious quotations) in "The New Yorker," which apparently she is the poetry
editor of, by A Alvarez with no mention of the connection.  I liked the Roethke,
though.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Fri Feb 15 22:39:32 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:39:32 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
References: <62.1aecd8c9.299e988b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6DD46C.755F0B1C@earthlink.net>


Thom424 at aol.com wrote:

> Peter OrseicK & William Coles: WORKING CLASSICS: POEMS OF INDUSTRIAL LIFE
> (1990) and FOR A LIVING: THE POETRY OF WORK (1995), both from University of
> Illinois Press.
> Janet Zandy also edited a couple of working-class women's anthologies, one of
> which is CALLING HOME: WORKING-CLASS WOMEN'S  WRITING (Rutgers, 1990).

Thank you -- that sounds interesting.  I have liked Levine, although not his
most recent collections.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From trbell  Sat Feb 16 03:22:31 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:22:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
References: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202151350020.11122-100000@panix1.panix.com> <3C6DD011.A75A7E36@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <038101c1b6c3$14fa23e0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

> I did make a comment about
> Merwin working on translations because, while I don't doubt he worked
hard, it
> is _not the same thing emotionally_ as working an eight-hour-a-day job
doing
> something you're not connected do.

 Having worked at meaningful and meaningless jobs in and out of poetry,
including time in the academy, I have difficulty with this comment which
does seem to imply either that translating is not emotionally difficult or
that meaningless work is 'bad' in some way.  I have generally found though
that an opportunity to play is an important compnent in my ability to create
and I'm fairly sure there are examples of mindless pursuits leading to
productive work - Kafka is an example even though perhaps extreme.

tom bell





From trbell  Sat Feb 16 03:31:40 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:31:40 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
References: <sc6d0aaf.051@gwise.louisville.edu> <3C6DCE8E.549A8859@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <038701c1b6c4$5c85c380$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

Moira,
     i was just recently fortunately given the opportunity to spend a month
in jial where books were a possession that were prized (and sometimes
physically defended) on a level almost as vehement as smoking materials.  I
was also given as much respect there for my ability to solve crossword
puzzles as i had been when I was an academic and brought in every Monday the
NYT puzzle solve in ink.

tom bell

I do seem somewhat crotchety this evening.  sorry.

tom bell




From cstroffo  Fri Feb 15 23:56:54 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:56:54 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] working (class) poetry
References: <sc6d5a0f.055@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <3C6DE695.F785A4FE@earthlink.net>

Janet, thanks for this---

It's funny, though, for looking at a piece I recently revised from an
"unfinished"
written while in (or half-out of) the NYC freelance (at least half the
'job' is always looking for
another one) "groove," unable to tell whether I was "unable to get," or
"unwilling to hold"
a 9-2-5, and I found this 'stanza', put in quotes within the poem, to call
attention to it
as a voice, if not necessarily a voice I ultimately embrace....

"Just because someone else can keep/ a 9-5 better than you doesn't/
automatically make him a worse artist,/ but it does suck that so many honor
him/
as if it automatically makes him better..." So, a momentary utterance,
could be
applied to "fulltime academics" as well, perhaps--but not a critique, in
any dogmatic
way, as much as to be read in context of the speaker's frustration, a
moment of
bonding with the "you" in the utterance---though someone may want to
distort
it into something like an attack on Stevens, but not me---I have a
love-hate
realationship with his poetry too passionate for some petty day-job thing
to get in the way....

And I just found out Henry Rollins of Black Flag worked in an icecream shop

until he joined that "already established" band....

And, as a joke, sort of, someone once told me that WCW, too, probably
couldn't
have been a doctor TODAY and have devoted as much energy to as much writing

as he did----you know, all the lawsuits a doctor has to arm herself against
today,
and all the pharmeceticals, etc.....

havve a good sabbath,

Chris


Janet Holmes wrote:

> Catherine, thanks for the recognition. These arguments always piss me
> off because I suspect they really arise from some benighted and
> self-important executive's fear that his poetry isn't taken seriously
> ENOUGH because he is (or was) a wealthy executive. Tant pis, I say. The
> complaints don't seem to come from the grunt workers who write poems,
> the ones who do what this elite crowd terms "real work."
>
> In my experience, the only difference between academe and corporate life
> (aside from the obvious economic one) is that at appraisal time, you get
> credit for having written poetry if you're an academic. Those who posit
> loads of free time for professors have no basis of comparison except
> legend, methinks. And for those of us who've worked 9-2-5, believe me,
> there's no romance in working your body to the point of exhaustion five
> days a week. Paul, if you were cranking out the poems while working as a
> county pipe line inspector, good for you. I didn't have the
> qualifications for such a position.
>
> I'm grateful for good poetry; I don't give a shit what the poet was
> doing to support the writing of it. Debates like these are ultimately
> ridiculous. In fact, they're ridiculous from the beginning. They're not
> about poetry.
>
> Janet
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From cstroffo  Fri Feb 15 23:57:16 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:57:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGCEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <3C6DD0AA.9FE090C1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C6DE6AB.F0057B79@earthlink.net>

Perhaps because Ashbery got in "from the ground up" as it were....
beginning in new York in the 50s just as it was becoming the "art
capital"
(so legend has it.....)....

Chris

odysseus34 wrote:

> Halvard Johnson wrote:
>
> > I'm surprised now not to have thought earlier of Bernadette Mayer
> > (one below), Gary Snyder (one below), and even Frank O'Hara,
> > who wrote poems on the fly, being an art critic and later a curator
> > at MOMA, and even Ashbery, who, I guess, earned his living
> > from art criticism and translation before taking up the ease of
> > academic living.
>
> Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but how
> on earth would you do it writing art criticism?
>
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From cstroffo  Sat Feb 16 00:01:35 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:01:35 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Job Interview
References: <200202160421.g1G4Lao98019@mx4.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3C6DE7AE.68E7D398@earthlink.net>

Okay on this one---
but, please, don't anybody quote "April Inventory,"
which I know I liked, nd could probably like again,
but just not in the mood now......

Chris

David Graham wrote:

> I like the literature of work, myself, no matter what color the collar.
> Here's one by William Matthews.
>
> Job Interview
>
>     Think you, if Laura had been Petrarch's wife
>     He would have written sonnets all his life?
>      DON JUAN, III, 63-4
>
> "Where do you see yourself five years from now?"
> the eldest male member (or is "male member"
> a redundancy?) of the committee
> asked me. "Not here," I thought. A good thing I
>
> speak fluent Fog. I craved that job like some
> unappeasable, taunting woman.
> What did Byron's friend Hobhouse say after
> the wedding? "I felt as if I had buried
>
> a friend." Each day I had that job I felt
> the slack leash at my throat and thought what was
> its other trick. Better to scorn the job than ask
> what I had ever seen in it or think
>
> what pious muck I'd ladled over
> the committee. If they believed me, they
> deserved me. As luck would have it, the job
> lasted me almost but not quite five years.
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Feb 15 23:58:48 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:58:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <20020216045848.9AEBF2755@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From halvard  Sat Feb 16 00:09:35 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:09:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <3C6DD0AA.9FE090C1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGLEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

You write; you get paid.

Hal

{    Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but how
{    on earth would you do it writing art criticism?
{    
{    Moira Russell
{    Seattle, WA




From roger  Sat Feb 16 00:34:49 2002
From: roger (Roger Greenwald)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:34:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry of work
Message-ID: <3.0.3.16.20020216003449.088fbfca@pop.chass.utoronto.ca>

Hello, Everyone

I joined the list recently. Have just read digests 658, 659, 660.
Thanks for the poems that various people have included in their
postings over the past few days. It's been great to have
these suddenly turn up on my monitor--favorites from
other people's wide reading, and occasional glimpses into the work of
poets whose books I don't have (or have but haven't read much of!).

My contribution to the listing of poetry about work
is the followng (apologies if it was mentioned earlier
in the thread):

Antler. FACTORY. City Lights, 1980

A book-length suite. And not just about work, but about the
relation between work and poetry

Roger Greenwald

 



From Cadaly  Sat Feb 16 00:48:02 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:48:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
Message-ID: <174.3ab642c.299f4c92@aol.com>

Tom Bell, Do you mean Kafka's trips to the nudist colony? I dunno if I could 
stomach AWP nude on Bourbon Street.

Chris, Warhol's Cherry Vanilla had a ice cream shop in Palm Beach for quite 
some time.

Rgds,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From trbell  Sat Feb 16 04:40:20 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 03:40:20 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
References: <174.3ab642c.299f4c92@aol.com>
Message-ID: <03c101c1b6cd$f3fbc940$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

does sound though like the kind of mindless fantasy that could produce some interesting flights of whimsy.

tom


  Tom Bell, Do you mean Kafka's trips to the nudist colony? I dunno if I could stomach AWP nude on Bourbon Street.
  Rgds,
  Catherine Daly
  cadaly at pacbell.net 
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From Arielpf123  Sat Feb 16 07:39:46 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 07:39:46 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <141.99ff6b7.299fad12@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 11:59:37 PM, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com 
writes:

<< Yeah, Pat,

They all have actuarial tables,
statistical data, retirement benefits,
if you survive 'till then, 
death benefits to your survivors, 
if you don't! >>

Well actually the point I was making about "work" being conducive or not to 
poetry writing is that, in my  experience, there have been certain types of 
jobs that seem to access those areas of my mind/brain that trigger poetry; 
and other types that deaden my  mind or turn it to analytical concerns in a 
way that makes it difficult or impossible to write. Hasn't anyone else had 
this experience?  

For me, insurance work was a deadener; which is why I've wondered aloud how 
Stevens did it.  Also, being a social worker/therapist was a deadener for me 
(though I'd have thought otherwise).   On the other hand, when I was a Family 
Life Educator designing and giving workshops, poetry flowed.  And any kind of 
what a friend of mine (Greg Joly) called "Hand Labor" in his chapbook of that 
name seemed to stimulate poetry.   It has nothing to do with the amount of 
time available, but with a kind of channel the mind gets into.  At the 
current time, I am retired; teach one poetry class a week, think, read and 
try to write poetry constantly and feel totally numbly blocked.

pat fargnoli



From daisyf1  Sat Feb 16 09:22:21 2002
From: daisyf1 (Daisy Fried)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:22:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] worker poetry
Message-ID: <20020216.092222.-133673.0.daisyf1@juno.com>

Story Line Press put out a first book by a poet named Ginger Andrews a
year or two ago, winner of the Roerich Prize, all about work. Can't
remember the title. Deborah Garrison is now poetry editor of...Knopf? one
of those big houses...and was never the poetry editor of the NYer, as far
as I know--that would be Alice Quinn--though I believe Garrison did work
as an editor at the NYer which probably helped her get her poems
published in the NYer. Good for her. I was disappointed in A Working Girl
Can't Win on the basis of the poems themselves--I wanted them to be
sharper, wittier, better-written--they were fun, but not as fun as they
could have been, to me--but I don't think it's fair to have or lose
interest in poetry or a poet because of how successful s/he is or what
connections s/he has or who poufs her...what's she supposed to do, say
'no, don't pouf me, I'd rather be unknown and sell no books'?

Daisy Fried

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:53:03 -0500 new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
writes:
> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
> 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
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> 	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> 
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> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: Merwin (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
>    2. Re: Merwin (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
>    3. Re: Merwin (JforJames at aol.com)
>    4. working (class) poetry (Janet Holmes)
>    5. Re: Stevens (odysseus34)
>    6. Re: Poetry and/of Work (odysseus34)
>    7. Re: Work + Poetry = Politics? (odysseus34)
>    8. Re: Re:  Poetry and/of Work (odysseus34)
>    9. Re: Re:  Poetry and/of Work (odysseus34)
>   10. Job Interview (David Graham)
>   11. Re: Poems re Office Work: Kenneth Fearing, "Now" (odysseus34)
>   12. Re: RE: Office Poems (odysseus34)
>   13. Re: Poetry of work (odysseus34)
>   14. Re: Work + Poetry = Politics? (trbell at home.com)
>   15. Re: Poetry and/of Work (trbell at home.com)
>   16. Re: working (class) poetry (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:30:43 EST
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Merwin
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> --part1_60.1b10b3b6.299ed803_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> Au contraire, Steven's work is smattered with sly allusions to his 
> work (yes, 
> including the thin men).  Well, the idea, if not the thing. Looks 
> like I'll 
> have to do some weekend digging.
> 
> Jeffrey Levine
> 
> In a message dated 2/15/2002 4:18:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:
> 
> 
> > !   And I think he 
> > kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance 
> cronies 
> > knew 
> > about his poetry life.  However I'll bet some of his "thin men of 
> Haddam"  
> > worked in insurance!
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> --part1_60.1b10b3b6.299ed803_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Au contraire, 
> Steven's work is smattered with sly allusions to his work (yes, 
> including the thin men). &nbsp;Well, the idea, if not the thing. 
> Looks like I'll have to do some weekend digging.
> <BR>
> <BR>Jeffrey Levine
> <BR>
> <BR>In a message dated 2/15/2002 4:18:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; 
> MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">! 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;And I think he 
> <BR>kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance 
> cronies knew 
> <BR>about his poetry life. &nbsp;However I'll bet some of his "thin 
> men of Haddam" &nbsp;
> <BR>worked in insurance!
> <BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" 
> FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
> <BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" 
> FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
> <BR></FONT></HTML>
> 
> --part1_60.1b10b3b6.299ed803_boundary--
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:57:13 EST
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Merwin
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> --part1_d0.2262228b.299efa59_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> In a message dated 2/15/2002 3:18:23 PM Central Standard Time, 
> Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:
> 
> 
> > 
> > In a message dated 2/15/02 10:05:45 AM, halvard at earthlink.net 
> writes:
> > 
> > << Did Stevens write any poems *about* Aetna? >>
> > 
> > heck since I had the wrong insurance company I think not!   And I 
> think he 
> > kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance 
> cronies 
> > knew 
> > about his poetry life.  However I'll bet some of his "thin men of 
> Haddam"  
> > worked in insurance!
> > 
> > 
> 
> I've always wondered what would happen if one compared Stevens's 
> business 
> correspondence to his poetry.  I'm sure there must have been some 
> interesting 
> overlaps in the rhetoric, but apparently none of his business 
> correspondence 
> survives.
> 
> --part1_d0.2262228b.299efa59_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> 
> <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" 
> FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">In a message dated 2/15/2002 3:18:23 
> PM Central Standard Time, Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:
> <BR>
> <BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" 
> FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; 
> MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
> <BR>In a message dated 2/15/02 10:05:45 AM, halvard at earthlink.net 
> writes:
> <BR>
> <BR>&lt;&lt; Did Stevens write any poems *about* Aetna? &gt;&gt;
> <BR>
> <BR>heck since I had the wrong insurance company I think not! 
> &nbsp;&nbsp;And I think he 
> <BR>kept his two lives quite separate.... so that not many insurance 
> cronies knew 
> <BR>about his poetry life. &nbsp;However I'll bet some of his "thin 
> men of Haddam" &nbsp;
> <BR>worked in insurance!
> <BR>
> <BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" 
> FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
> <BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Times 
> New Roman" LANG="0">
> <BR>I've always wondered what would happen if one compared Stevens's 
> business correspondence to his poetry. &nbsp;I'm sure there must 
> have been some interesting overlaps in the rhetoric, but apparently 
> none of his business correspondence survives.</FONT></HTML>
> 
> --part1_d0.2262228b.299efa59_boundary--
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 3
> From: JforJames at aol.com
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:15:37 EST
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Merwin
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> In a message dated 2/15/02 6:59:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
> writes:
> 
> << I've always wondered what would happen if one compared Stevens's 
> business 
>  correspondence to his poetry.  I'm sure there must have been some 
> interesting 
>  overlaps in the rhetoric, but apparently none of his business 
> correspondence 
>  survives.
>   >>
> Or in his drafting of insurance contracts/bonds...despite their 
> legalese, 
> some lovely felicities of language must reside therein.
> Finnegan
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 18:57:10 -0700
> From: "Janet Holmes" <jholmes at boisestate.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] working (class) poetry
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> Catherine, thanks for the recognition. These arguments always piss 
> me
> off because I suspect they really arise from some benighted and
> self-important executive's fear that his poetry isn't taken 
> seriously
> ENOUGH because he is (or was) a wealthy executive. Tant pis, I say. 
> The
> complaints don't seem to come from the grunt workers who write 
> poems,
> the ones who do what this elite crowd terms "real work."
> 
> In my experience, the only difference between academe and corporate 
> life
> (aside from the obvious economic one) is that at appraisal time, you 
> get
> credit for having written poetry if you're an academic. Those who 
> posit
> loads of free time for professors have no basis of comparison except
> legend, methinks. And for those of us who've worked 9-2-5, believe 
> me,
> there's no romance in working your body to the point of exhaustion 
> five
> days a week. Paul, if you were cranking out the poems while working 
> as a
> county pipe line inspector, good for you. I didn't have the
> qualifications for such a position. 
> 
> I'm grateful for good poetry; I don't give a shit what the poet was
> doing to support the writing of it. Debates like these are 
> ultimately
> ridiculous. In fact, they're ridiculous from the beginning. They're 
> not
> about poetry.
> 
> Janet
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:57:06 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stevens
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> <HTML>
> 
> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT 
> SIZE=-1>Incidentally,
> in the biographies and letters I've seen there doesn't seem to 
> be</FONT></FONT></FONT>
> <BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>any 
> indication
> that Stevens regretted his life as VP of an insurance 
> company</FONT></FONT></FONT>
> <BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>(he had a 
> law
> degree but he didn't practice law per se...he did bonding 
> work</FONT></FONT></FONT>
> <BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>for The 
> Hartford
> which often involves contract drafting and claims that 
> come</FONT></FONT></FONT>
> <BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>out of 
> litigation).
> In fact I think he&nbsp; was rather pleased with himself that 
> he'd</FONT></FONT></FONT>
> <BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>garnered 
> such
> a reputation while not being fully engaged in a literary 
> life.</FONT></FONT></FONT>
> <BR><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT 
> SIZE=-1>Finnegan</FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
> Huh, that sounds more like Eliot....admittedly, being the VP of an 
> insurance
> company or a senior loan officer at a bank is a lot more pleasant 
> than
> most of the 9-5 gigs people work.
> 
> <P>Didn't Stevens also dictate his poems to his secretary, or am I 
> remembering
> wrong?
> 
> <P>Moira Russell
> <BR>Seattle, WA
> <BR>&nbsp;</HTML>
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:14:27 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Alan C Golding wrote:
> 
> > Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
> > stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and 
> people in
> > academia.  Nor do I quite understand why Ferlinghetti's bookstore
> > management and Jay Laughlin's publishing somehow don't count as 
> real
> > jobs.  Next time I'm up at 2 a.m. grading 40 papers, I must remind
> > myself I'm not really working.
> 
> I don't think I said working in academia was not a "real" job, nor 
> would I
> (having had a brief stint as a teaching assistant years ago;  that 
> was
> probably the hardest job I've ever had).  But it seems to me people 
> in
> academia, or people who work in bookstores or publishing, have at 
> least a
> closer connection to the world of books and ideas than I do in my 
> office
> job.  When I bring books in to read on my lunch hour, I am 
> invariably asked
> if I am taking a class (I work at a University), and when I say no, 
> the
> asker is usually baffled as to why I would want to read something if 
> I
> weren't.  I doubt that would happen to someone managing a bookstore.
> Working in an academic job is very hard, probably much harder than 
> what I
> do, but there's a certain emotional disconnect between what I do all 
> day
> every day and what I'm really interested in which makes it perhaps 
> harder
> to bear than an academic job.  (I didn't mean to imply translation 
> is not
> hard work, either.  But it would be delightfully hard.)
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:20:55 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Jordan Davis wrote:
> 
> > Am I wrong to hear a politics stirring in this ressentiment?
> >
> > So many poets gravitate to graduate school -- it's a 
> who-moved-my-cheese
> > problem, though; my professor has a good life, or something like 
> it, why
> > can't I get that too?
> 
> None of the people I knew in graduate school thought our professors 
> had a
> ticket to "the good life."  They mainly seemed overworked, 
> underpaid,
> underinsured, went to far too many meetings, and either had to go on
> sabbaticals or quit their jobs to concentrate on their own writing.  
> Many of
> them complained privately about the politics of the department.  But 
> we
> realized at least it was a job that would allow you to stay in some 
> contact
> with the world of ideas and writing.  Then in about 1996 when I was 
> due to
> graduate, the job market started drying up to such an extreme most 
> of the
> people I knew are still trying to get adjunct jobs, and those who 
> have them
> count themselves lucky.
> 
> I'm a bit frustrated here because I think people are not reacting to 
> what I
> actually said.  Since I work in an office job that was why I 
> discounted, to me,
> such jobs like managing a bookstore and working at a publishing 
> company (or for
> that matter editing a literary magazine, teaching freshman comp, and 
> so on, and
> so on).  I don't think I said at any point "those are not real jobs 
> and the
> people who have them are not really working."  I did make a comment 
> about
> Merwin working on translations because, while I don't doubt he 
> worked hard, it
> is _not the same thing emotionally_ as working an eight-hour-a-day 
> job doing
> something you're not connected do.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:23:28 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> > I'm surprised now not to have thought earlier of Bernadette Mayer
> > (one below), Gary Snyder (one below), and even Frank O'Hara,
> > who wrote poems on the fly, being an art critic and later a 
> curator
> > at MOMA, and even Ashbery, who, I guess, earned his living
> > from art criticism and translation before taking up the ease of
> > academic living.
> 
> Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but 
> how
> on earth would you do it writing art criticism?
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:25:28 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> > > >Parenthetically, I'm always bemused by the persistence of the
> > > >stereotyped opposition between people who have "real" jobs and 
> people in
> > > >academia.
> >
> > I'm sure good teachers work very hard--but they have huge amounts 
> of time
> > off
> > that people with non-teaching jobs don't have.
> 
> I'll probably be sorry I said this, but teachers also tend to have 
> free hours
> during the day which can be used for writing -- it's a lot more 
> difficult for
> me to write in the evening when I'm tired and there are chores to be 
> down
> around the house, but it's frustrating to only try writing on the 
> weekends.
> Difficult as teaching was I found the staggered hours a lot easier 
> to cope
> with than the feeling you have mortaged the entire day to someone 
> else for a
> paycheck.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 22:23:56 -0600
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
> To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Job Interview
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> I like the literature of work, myself, no matter what color the 
> collar. 
> Here's one by William Matthews.
> 
> Job Interview
> 
>     Think you, if Laura had been Petrarch's wife
>     He would have written sonnets all his life?
>      DON JUAN, III, 63-4
> 
> "Where do you see yourself five years from now?"
> the eldest male member (or is "male member"
> a redundancy?) of the committee
> asked me. "Not here," I thought. A good thing I
> 
> speak fluent Fog. I craved that job like some
> unappeasable, taunting woman.
> What did Byron's friend Hobhouse say after
> the wedding? "I felt as if I had buried
> 
> a friend." Each day I had that job I felt
> the slack leash at my throat and thought what was
> its other trick. Better to scorn the job than ask
> what I had ever seen in it or think
> 
> what pious muck I'd ladled over
> the committee. If they believed me, they
> deserved me. As luck would have it, the job
> lasted me almost but not quite five years.
> 
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:36:13 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems re Office Work: Kenneth Fearing, 
> "Now"
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Here's a start for you, Moira. There's a lot more in Fearing, I 
> suspect,
> > but this will do for starters.
> 
> (poem snipped)
> 
> That's really nice, Hal....thank you.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:38:22 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Office Poems
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Thom424 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> > ?You might find this recent collection of some interest. I've 
> included a few
> > of the reviews from amazon.com:
> >
> > A Working Girl Can't Win : And Other Poems by Deborah Garrison
> 
> I lost interest in Deborah Garrison when the poetry collection was 
> poufed (with
> copious quotations) in "The New Yorker," which apparently she is the 
> poetry
> editor of, by A Alvarez with no mention of the connection.  I liked 
> the Roethke,
> though.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 13
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:39:32 -0700
> From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry of work
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> 
> Thom424 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> > Peter OrseicK & William Coles: WORKING CLASSICS: POEMS OF 
> INDUSTRIAL LIFE
> > (1990) and FOR A LIVING: THE POETRY OF WORK (1995), both from 
> University of
> > Illinois Press.
> > Janet Zandy also edited a couple of working-class women's 
> anthologies, one of
> > which is CALLING HOME: WORKING-CLASS WOMEN'S  WRITING (Rutgers, 
> 1990).
> 
> Thank you -- that sounds interesting.  I have liked Levine, although 
> not his
> most recent collections.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 14
> From: <trbell at home.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Work + Poetry = Politics?
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:22:31 -0600
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> 
> > I did make a comment about
> > Merwin working on translations because, while I don't doubt he 
> worked
> hard, it
> > is _not the same thing emotionally_ as working an eight-hour-a-day 
> job
> doing
> > something you're not connected do.
> 
>  Having worked at meaningful and meaningless jobs in and out of 
> poetry,
> including time in the academy, I have difficulty with this comment 
> which
> does seem to imply either that translating is not emotionally 
> difficult or
> that meaningless work is 'bad' in some way.  I have generally found 
> though
> that an opportunity to play is an important compnent in my ability 
> to create
> and I'm fairly sure there are examples of mindless pursuits leading 
> to
> productive work - Kafka is an example even though perhaps extreme.
> 
> tom bell
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 15
> From: <trbell at home.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 02:31:40 -0600
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> Moira,
>      i was just recently fortunately given the opportunity to spend 
> a month
> in jial where books were a possession that were prized (and 
> sometimes
> physically defended) on a level almost as vehement as smoking 
> materials.  I
> was also given as much respect there for my ability to solve 
> crossword
> puzzles as i had been when I was an academic and brought in every 
> Monday the
> NYT puzzle solve in ink.
> 
> tom bell
> 
> I do seem somewhat crotchety this evening.  sorry.
> 
> tom bell
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 16
> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:56:54 -0800
> From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] working (class) poetry
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> Janet, thanks for this---
> 
> It's funny, though, for looking at a piece I recently revised from 
> an
> "unfinished"
> written while in (or half-out of) the NYC freelance (at least half 
> the
> 'job' is always looking for
> another one) "groove," unable to tell whether I was "unable to get," 
> or
> "unwilling to hold"
> a 9-2-5, and I found this 'stanza', put in quotes within the poem, 
> to call
> attention to it
> as a voice, if not necessarily a voice I ultimately embrace....
> 
> "Just because someone else can keep/ a 9-5 better than you doesn't/
> automatically make him a worse artist,/ but it does suck that so 
> many honor
> him/
> as if it automatically makes him better..." So, a momentary 
> utterance,
> could be
> applied to "fulltime academics" as well, perhaps--but not a 
> critique, in
> any dogmatic
> way, as much as to be read in context of the speaker's frustration, 
> a
> moment of
> bonding with the "you" in the utterance---though someone may want to
> distort
> it into something like an attack on Stevens, but not me---I have a
> love-hate
> realationship with his poetry too passionate for some petty day-job 
> thing
> to get in the way....
> 
> And I just found out Henry Rollins of Black Flag worked in an 
> icecream shop
> 
> until he joined that "already established" band....
> 
> And, as a joke, sort of, someone once told me that WCW, too, 
> probably
> couldn't
> have been a doctor TODAY and have devoted as much energy to as much 
> writing
> 
> as he did----you know, all the lawsuits a doctor has to arm herself 
> against
> today,
> and all the pharmeceticals, etc.....
> 
> havve a good sabbath,
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> Janet Holmes wrote:
> 
> > Catherine, thanks for the recognition. These arguments always piss 
> me
> > off because I suspect they really arise from some benighted and
> > self-important executive's fear that his poetry isn't taken 
> seriously
> > ENOUGH because he is (or was) a wealthy executive. Tant pis, I 
> say. The
> > complaints don't seem to come from the grunt workers who write 
> poems,
> > the ones who do what this elite crowd terms "real work."
> >
> > In my experience, the only difference between academe and 
> corporate life
> > (aside from the obvious economic one) is that at appraisal time, 
> you get
> > credit for having written poetry if you're an academic. Those who 
> posit
> > loads of free time for professors have no basis of comparison 
> except
> > legend, methinks. And for those of us who've worked 9-2-5, believe 
> me,
> > there's no romance in working your body to the point of exhaustion 
> five
> > days a week. Paul, if you were cranking out the poems while 
> working as a
> > county pipe line inspector, good for you. I didn't have the
> > qualifications for such a position.
> >
> > I'm grateful for good poetry; I don't give a shit what the poet 
> was
> > doing to support the writing of it. Debates like these are 
> ultimately
> > ridiculous. In fact, they're ridiculous from the beginning. 
> They're not
> > about poetry.
> >
> > Janet
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> End of New-Poetry Digest



From halvard  Sat Feb 16 09:51:28 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 09:51:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGLEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEGNEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Sorry about the terseness of last night's response, Moira. I apologize
for that. I didn't have the energy to go upstairs to find the book I
needed to really answer your question: to wit, *Reported Sightings:
Art Chronicles 1957-1987*, a large assemblage of Ashbery's
writings on art. According to the dustjacket, Ashbery's thirty-year
career as an art critic goes something like this: first the Paris *Herald
Tribune*, then executive editor of ARTnews, then critic for *New York*
and later for *Newsweek*. The collection (ed. David Bergman) runs
to just over 400 pages.

Hal

{    You write; you get paid.
{    
{    Hal
{    
{    {    Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but how
{    {    on earth would you do it writing art criticism?
{    {    
{    {    Moira Russell
{    {    Seattle, WA
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    



From JforJames  Sat Feb 16 10:51:08 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:51:08 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] working (class) poetry
Message-ID: <12d.c95ea43.299fd9ec@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/15/02 8:56:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jholmes at boisestate.edu writes:

<< m grateful for good poetry; I don't give a shit what the poet was
 doing to support the writing of it. Debates like these are ultimately
 ridiculous. In fact, they're ridiculous from the beginning. They're not
 about poetry. >>

Janet, of course the poetry is the thing we value...but I think it's
fair to look at the life as it informs the art, from a variety of 
perspectives:
employment, societal class, education, sexual interests, family relationships,
cultural milieu, politics, etc. If we try to make of the art the sum total of 
these things...then we go wrong. But let's say 80%(a WAG percentage of poets 
who
are employed in educational institutions, primarily in English Depts.) 
of practicing poets were engaged in the data processing field...would that 
not be of interest and a fair subject of discussion? 
Non sequitur: This week Emily Grosholz is coming to Trinity College in 
Hartford to read, and give a talk...she teaches Philosophy at UPenn, I 
believe. 
Finnegan 



From FanwoodJEL  Sat Feb 16 11:13:34 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:13:34 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <135.985213e.299fdf2e@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/16/2002 7:41:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:


> Well actually the point I was making about "work" being conducive or not to 
> poetry writing is that, in my  experience, there have been certain types of 
> jobs that seem to access those areas of my mind/brain that trigger poetry; 
> and other types that deaden my  mind or turn it to analytical concerns in a 
> way that makes it difficult or impossible to write. Hasn't anyone else had 
> this experience?  
> 
> For me, insurance work was a deadener; which is why I've wondered aloud how 
> Stevens did it.  Also, being a social worker/therapist was a deadener for 
> me 
> (though I'd have thought otherwise).   On the other hand, when I was a 
> Family 
> Life Educator designing and giving workshops, poetry flowed.  And any kind 
> of 
> what a friend of mine (Greg Joly) called "Hand Labor" in his chapbook of 
> that 
> name seemed to stimulate poetry.   It has nothing to do with the amount of 
> time available, but with a kind of channel the mind gets into.  At the 
> current time, I am retired; teach one poetry class a week, think, read and 
> try to write poetry constantly and feel totally numbly blocked.
> 
> pat fargnoli
> 

Well, interesting you say that because I've had just the opposite experience. 
I find it almost impossible to write while teaching because I can't stop 
thinking about what I'm reading, designing, communicating, planning. And 
because, where's the time? (Though teaching does, I find, trigger poetry, and 
feeds well periods of prolific production in the interstices -- vacations and 
summers.) 

Contrast that with 25 years, on-and-off, in the dizzyingly unsatisfying world 
of corporate law, where writing was the antidote to daily dullness. You've 
seen the TV commercial where young jr. exec. turks sit around a board table, 
listening to someone drone relentlessly about last month's numbers, this 
month's numbers, next month's numbers? I was the guy writing poems on yellow 
pad. Just don't ask me about the numbers. Completely paradoxical, I know, but 
as Satan said, the mind is its own place. Still, Pat, thing to do is come 
with me to the next board meeting (I still do some occasional consulting). 
Them poems'll just tumble out.

Jeffrey Levine
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From grahamd  Sat Feb 16 11:40:17 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:40:17 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art Chronicles
Message-ID: <200202161639.g1GGd6q34239@mx5.mx.voyager.net>

I enjoy Ashbery's art criticism.  Don't suppose it should have surprised me,
but it sort of did:  he's a completely straightforward, lucid journalist. 
No "poetic" flights in his art crit that I've seen.  

Straying even further from poetry, I would also recommend John Updike's book
of art criticism, *Just Looking*.  

Mark Strand is another--I like his art criticism a lot more than his poetry.
 

David Graham
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
>Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002, 8:51 AM
>

>Sorry about the terseness of last night's response, Moira. I apologize
>for that. I didn't have the energy to go upstairs to find the book I
>needed to really answer your question: to wit, *Reported Sightings:
>Art Chronicles 1957-1987*, a large assemblage of Ashbery's
>writings on art. According to the dustjacket, Ashbery's thirty-year
>career as an art critic goes something like this: first the Paris *Herald
>Tribune*, then executive editor of ARTnews, then critic for *New York*
>and later for *Newsweek*. The collection (ed. David Bergman) runs
>to just over 400 pages.
>
>Hal
>
>{    You write; you get paid.
>{    
>{    Hal
>{    
>{    {    Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but how
>{    {    on earth would you do it writing art criticism?
>{    {    
>{    {    Moira Russell
>{    {    Seattle, WA
>{    
>{    _______________________________________________
>{    New-Poetry mailing list
>{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>{    
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From cstroffo  Sat Feb 16 13:52:54 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:52:54 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art Chronicles
References: <200202161639.g1GGd6q34239@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3C6EAA86.BAC2DDAE@earthlink.net>

David---

I think much the same can be said for his recent book, (of lit. criticism?---that's
not really right?), Other Traditions too--I was kinda surprised, was perhaps
expecting something more intense, like Stevens' The Necessary Angel or something,
and so it was almost disappointing in its straightforward appeals to a "plain
reader"
at least from the perspective of one who loves much  of Ashbery's poetry, but
then again, the operative word here is "almost"--for the relative lack of "poetic"
flights are interesting, and provide an interesting complement to his poetry
and maybe even can allow some people "entry" to his work who otherwise
might feel frozen out?

Chris

David Graham wrote:

> I enjoy Ashbery's art criticism.  Don't suppose it should have surprised me,
> but it sort of did:  he's a completely straightforward, lucid journalist.
> No "poetic" flights in his art crit that I've seen.
>
> Straying even further from poetry, I would also recommend John Updike's book
> of art criticism, *Just Looking*.
>
> Mark Strand is another--I like his art criticism a lot more than his poetry.
>
>
> David Graham
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
>
> ----------
> >From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re:  Poetry and/of Work
> >Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002, 8:51 AM
> >
>
> >Sorry about the terseness of last night's response, Moira. I apologize
> >for that. I didn't have the energy to go upstairs to find the book I
> >needed to really answer your question: to wit, *Reported Sightings:
> >Art Chronicles 1957-1987*, a large assemblage of Ashbery's
> >writings on art. According to the dustjacket, Ashbery's thirty-year
> >career as an art critic goes something like this: first the Paris *Herald
> >Tribune*, then executive editor of ARTnews, then critic for *New York*
> >and later for *Newsweek*. The collection (ed. David Bergman) runs
> >to just over 400 pages.
> >
> >Hal
> >
> >{    You write; you get paid.
> >{
> >{    Hal
> >{
> >{    {    Earning your living from translation I can kind of understand, but how
> >{    {    on earth would you do it writing art criticism?
> >{    {
> >{    {    Moira Russell
> >{    {    Seattle, WA
> >{
> >{    _______________________________________________
> >{    New-Poetry mailing list
> >{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >{
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From cstroffo  Sat Feb 16 13:53:04 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 10:53:04 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
References: <135.985213e.299fdf2e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C6EAA91.D86896A8@earthlink.net>

Jeffrey----

great points----it seems sensibility, temperament, mood, the kind of
poetry one writes,
or is into writing at that time, would all then be factors
involved----Ever read Auden's
short little, "Work, Play, and Labour" essay; it's great because of his
relativist sense
of what could be "unalienated labour" depending on the person (not, say,
privileging,
white collar over blue...). Ever try to adjust the kind of poetry you
write depending on
the work, or other environment-related, situations? I know I have had
to---not that I'm
actually complaining about it; it's kind of interesting that a poem I
would have scorned
when I was an adjunct in Philly I found myself writing when a
factchecker in NYC....

Chris

FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/16/2002 7:41:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> Arielpf123 at aol.com writes:
>
>
>
>> Well actually the point I was making about "work" being conducive or
>> not to
>> poetry writing is that, in my  experience, there have been certain
>> types of
>> jobs that seem to access those areas of my mind/brain that trigger
>> poetry;
>> and other types that deaden my  mind or turn it to analytical
>> concerns in a
>> way that makes it difficult or impossible to write. Hasn't anyone
>> else had
>> this experience?
>>
>> For me, insurance work was a deadener; which is why I've wondered
>> aloud how
>> Stevens did it.  Also, being a social worker/therapist was a
>> deadener for me
>> (though I'd have thought otherwise).   On the other hand, when I was
>> a Family
>> Life Educator designing and giving workshops, poetry flowed.  And
>> any kind of
>> what a friend of mine (Greg Joly) called "Hand Labor" in his
>> chapbook of that
>> name seemed to stimulate poetry.   It has nothing to do with the
>> amount of
>> time available, but with a kind of channel the mind gets into.  At
>> the
>> current time, I am retired; teach one poetry class a week, think,
>> read and
>> try to write poetry constantly and feel totally numbly blocked.
>>
>> pat fargnoli
>
> Well, interesting you say that because I've had just the opposite
> experience. I find it almost impossible to write while teaching
> because I can't stop thinking about what I'm reading, designing,
> communicating, planning. And because, where's the time? (Though
> teaching does, I find, trigger poetry, and feeds well periods of
> prolific production in the interstices -- vacations and summers.)
>
> Contrast that with 25 years, on-and-off, in the dizzyingly
> unsatisfying world of corporate law, where writing was the antidote to
> daily dullness. You've seen the TV commercial where young jr. exec.
> turks sit around a board table, listening to someone drone
> relentlessly about last month's numbers, this month's numbers, next
> month's numbers? I was the guy writing poems on yellow pad. Just don't
> ask me about the numbers. Completely paradoxical, I know, but as Satan
> said, the mind is its own place. Still, Pat, thing to do is come with
> me to the next board meeting (I still do some occasional consulting).
> Them poems'll just tumble out.
>
> Jeffrey Levine
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From CobbCoStudioArts  Sat Feb 16 14:23:12 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:23:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <20020216192312.B61FF36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From Rsgwynn1  Sat Feb 16 14:45:33 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:45:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wuk, wuk
Message-ID: <17b.3b59522.29a010dd@cs.com>

I'm having some trouble typing because of a pinched nerve, and I can't find 
my collection of Dugan anyway.  But maybe someone can post "Notes on a Seven 
Day Diary."
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From FanwoodJEL  Sat Feb 16 14:53:22 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:53:22 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wuk, wuk
Message-ID: <6c.17996391.29a012b2@aol.com>

On a Seven Day Diary -- Dugan

Oh I got up and went to work
and worked and came back home
and ate and talked and went to sleep.
Then I got up and went to work
and worked and came back home
from work and ate and slept.
Then I got up and went to work
and worked and came back home
and ate and watched a show and slept.
Then I got up and went to work
and worked and came back home
and ate steak and went to sleep.
Then I got up and went to work
and worked and came back home
and ate and fucked and went to sleep.
Then it was Saturday, Saturday, Saturday!
Love must be the reason for the week!
We went shopping! I saw clouds!
The children explained everything!
I could talk about the main thing!
What did I drink on Saturday night
that lost the first, best half of Sunday?
The last half wasn't worth this "word."
Then I got up and went to work
and worked and came back home
from work and ate and went to sleep,
refreshed but tired by the weekend.

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From jholmes  Sat Feb 16 15:23:44 2002
From: jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 13:23:44 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #663 - 4 msgs
Message-ID: <sc6e5d7d.015@athena.boisestate.edu>

>> Janet, of course the poetry is the thing we value...but I think it's
fair to look at the life as it informs the art, from a variety of
perspectives:
employment, societal class, education, sexual interests, family
relationships, cultural milieu, politics, etc. If we try to make of the
art the sum total of these things...then we go wrong.<<

Hello Jim,

Heck, if it interests you, then look into it, by all means. As for me,
the influences of (say) Stevens' job on his poetry is of only cursory
interest--I'm not going to head out looking for a lawyer's job at an
insurance company because it helped Stevens. I'm not going to become a
translator or art critic because others found it possible to write that
way. And I'm not writing scholarly essays about these work-work
connections. I care lots more about the poems, what and why and how
*they* work, because they pose much more interesting challenges than
biographical details. About all I can take away from such discussions
(and did, as a young poet) is the permission to do something others
might consider unusual in order to enable myself to write. Get up at
five. (Never did.) Write one line in between sets of physical therapy
exercises. (I have a friend who does.) The idea of dictating my poems to
a secretary just didn't enter into my own problem-solving arena.

>> But let's say 80%(a WAG percentage of poets who are employed in
educational institutions, primarily in English Depts.) of practicing
poets were engaged in the data processing field...would that not be of
interest and a fair subject of discussion? <<

Sure--but more to sociologists, wouldn't you think?

>> Non sequitur: This week Emily Grosholz is coming to Trinity College
in 
Hartford to read, and give a talk...she teaches Philosophy at UPenn, I 
believe. <<

Ah yes--the old "any field is better than English literature" truism. I
admire Grosholz's poems (and Carl Phillips's, and Anne Carson's,
Geoffrey Hill's, Linda Gregerson's -- all people who teach/have taught
in fields other than English). But I don't think her field of study
gives her any more legitimacy (or interest) than an author who teaches
English literature or Creative Writing. John Berryman, for example,
managed to squeeze out some mighty fine writing in between those
Shakespeare lectures. It might be nice if American poets displayed more
familiarity with the literature and history of their own language than
they do.

These are just my opinions, Jim--I'm just sharing them on the list along
with everyone else. I'm sorry if they seem provocative.

Janet



From FanwoodJEL  Sat Feb 16 18:10:17 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:10:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <70.17f79514.29a040d9@aol.com>

Chris,

It's hard to say what speaks worse for my process: that how and what I write 
tend to be wholly alienated from whatever it is I do to earn a living, or 
that my poems--form and content--are so much affected by what I've last read. 
So many times I've been here or there and felt, well, I SHOULD be writing 
about this (the hawk on a low snow-covered branch of white pine, or the 
little child begging with his abuela in Mexico City's Zona Rosa, let's say), 
but it never works out that way for me. What happens on the page is what 
happens. But for me that's the pleasure of it: to start without agenda and to 
finish somewhere unimagined, unimaginable. Though, that said, I'm sure what I 
write is wholly different before and after a good meal. (Substitute other 
nouns here.) Anyway, the hardest part, I find, is letting go of the last way 
of writing and welcoming in the latest. Frightening, wrenching, liberating. 
You choose.

Jeffrey

In a message dated 2/16/2002 1:50:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cstroffo at earthlink.net writes:


> Jeffrey---- great points----it seems sensibility, temperament, mood, the 
> kind of poetry one writes, or is into writing at that time, would all then 
> be factors involved----Ever read Auden's short little, "Work, Play, and 
> Labour" essay; it's great because of his relativist sense of what could be 
> "unalienated labour" depending on the person (not, say, privileging, white 
> collar over blue...). Ever try to adjust the kind of poetry you write 
> depending on the work, or other environment-related, situations? I know I 
> have had to---not that I'm actually complaining about it; it's kind of 
> interesting that a poem I would have scorned when I was an adjunct in 
> Philly I found myself writing when a factchecker in NYC.... 

Chris 



FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote: 
> 
> >> In a message dated 2/16/2002 7:41:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
>> Arielpf123 at aol.com writes: 
>>   
>>   
>> >>> Well actually the point I was making about "work" being conducive or 
>>> not to 
>>> poetry writing is that, in my  experience, there have been certain types 
>>> of 
>>> jobs that seem to access those areas of my mind/brain that trigger poetry;
>>>  
>>> and other types that deaden my  mind or turn it to analytical concerns in 
>>> a 
>>> way that makes it difficult or impossible to write. Hasn't anyone else had
>>>  
>>> this experience? For me, insurance work was a deadener; which is why I've 
>>> wondered aloud how Stevens did it.  Also, being a social worker/therapist 
>>> was a deadener for me (though I'd have thought otherwise).   On the other 
>>> hand, when I was a Family Life Educator designing and giving workshops, 
>>> poetry flowed.  And any kind of what a friend of mine (Greg Joly) called 
>>> "Hand Labor" in his chapbook of that name seemed to stimulate poetry.   
>>> It has nothing to do with the amount of time available, but with a kind 
>>> of channel the mind gets into.  At the current time, I am retired; teach 
>>> one poetry class a week, think, read and try to write poetry constantly 
>>> and feel totally numbly blocked. 

pat fargnoli
> >> >>> 
>>> 
>> Well, interesting you say that because I've had just the opposite 
>> experience. I find it almost impossible to write while teaching because I 
>> can't stop thinking about what I'm reading, designing, communicating, 
>> planning. And because, where's the time? (Though teaching does, I find, 
>> trigger poetry, and feeds well periods of prolific production in the 
>> interstices -- vacations and summers.) 
>> Contrast that with 25 years, on-and-off, in the dizzyingly unsatisfying 
>> world of corporate law, where writing was the antidote to daily dullness. 
>> You've seen the TV commercial where young jr. exec. turks sit around a 
>> board table, listening to someone drone relentlessly about last month's 
>> numbers, this month's numbers, next month's numbers? I was the guy writing 
>> poems on yellow pad. Just don't ask me about the numbers. Completely 
>> paradoxical, I know, but as Satan said, the mind is its own place. Still, 
>> Pat, thing to do is come with me to the next board meeting (I still do 
>> some occasional consulting). Them poems'll just tumble out. 
>> Jeffrey Levine
> 


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From halvard  Sat Feb 16 23:28:29 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:28:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by othes: Wayne Koestenbaum, "German Romantic Song"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEHEEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

German Romantic Song

Cryptic owl on my sill,
olive branch in the gold-bowered cope,

when I was a child I didn?t know
what the word ?colleague? meant: darkness?
My father had many colleagues;
I had none.

I told his assistant, twenty-one years ago,
?I wonder which I love most,
words or music.?
I can?t remember her advice,
though later she sued my father--
a long story. Perhaps
ecstasy can?t be sought?
Materialism is no longer my amour,
I?m forever a bridegroom to bliss and its disguises.

--Wayne Koestenbaum


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From CobbCoStudioArts  Sun Feb 17 09:52:09 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 06:52:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <20020217145209.1EBEA3ECC@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From hruggier  Sun Feb 17 11:15:22 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:15:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] WORK AND POETRY
Message-ID: <3C6FD71A.AC1D3555@localnet.com>

This has been a fascinating discussion (I'm a newcomer to the list).  I
had to put an oar in here about work:  I've written poetry while working
as a private secretary, an order entry clerk, a technical buyer
(assistant), an adjunct, a composition instructor, and as a writing
teacher.  I wrote poetry as a grad student (in my 40s), and as a night
shift worker running backup on a hospital computer.  However, my best
and most productive year as a poet was the year I collected unemployment
insurance and spent most of every day (except Wednesday when I reported
to the employment office) writing, practicing, writing more and more and
more.  In other words, doing what I didn't have time to do when I was
working.

Thanks,

Helen Ruggieri




From odysseus34  Sun Feb 17 14:17:52 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:17:52 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
References: <135.985213e.299fdf2e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3C7001DE.214E80B5@earthlink.net>

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From odysseus34  Sun Feb 17 14:33:21 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 12:33:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #663 - 4 msgs
References: <sc6e5d7d.015@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <3C70057D.7B981CA2@earthlink.net>


Janet Holmes wrote:

> Ah yes--the old "any field is better than English literature" truism. I
> admire Grosholz's poems (and Carl Phillips's, and Anne Carson's,
> Geoffrey Hill's, Linda Gregerson's -- all people who teach/have taught
> in fields other than English). But I don't think her field of study
> gives her any more legitimacy (or interest) than an author who teaches
> English literature or Creative Writing.

Who had any questions about legitimacy?  I really don't think that was the
point of the original discussion.  It started off with some slightly
gossipy stuff about Maya Angelou, Billy Collins, and money, and evolved
into talking about working poets/poets who work -- the age-old balance
between trying to write and trying to earn a living.  If that problem
doesn't concern you, you are very lucky.

I was particularly interested in poets who have had jobs other than
teaching, not because I think it's easy to teach, not because I think it's
easy to get into teaching (particularly now) but just because I personally
don't now teach and it doesn't look likely in the future.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From FanwoodJEL  Sun Feb 17 15:44:12 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:44:12 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <196.26b849b.29a1701c@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/17/2002 3:16:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
odysseus34 at earthlink.net writes:


> I had the same idea, but got so many comments on "What are you writing 
> about?  Are you taking notes?  Why are you taking notes?"  etc. etc.  fro 
> the boss, among others, that I just quit doing it.  (I forgot to mention 
> one of the other big comments at work, given that I've been a habitual 
> notebook-carrier since about age ten, is "What are you writing?  Are you 
> writing a novel?  Is it about us?"  I've never been able to come up with a 
> good answer to this question yet.) Moira Russell 
> Seattle, WA 
> 
> 
Moira,

Ha. Well, I always say, yes, it's about you. I tell them somebody has to 
record how this company's exemplary leadership so beautifully balances its 
responsibilities to the stockholders, the environment, the board, the 
executives, the back-office and the bank. Anyway, I was always the one 
charged with keeping the minutes--maybe because I was always corporate 
secretary--so then carte blanche to write. I'll wager that very few board 
minutes note (for example) that as the CFO discussed the company's short-term 
financial prospects, her eyebrows appeared to archly arch. Here's my 
favorite: I actually started a poem at a closing -- an acquisition of one 
solid waste landfill by another -- while everybody sat around a little coffee 
table in a little shack out on top of the actual landfill. Seemed an 
opportunity too good to miss.

Jeffrey
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From halvard  Sun Feb 17 15:53:59 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:53:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
In-Reply-To: <3C7001DE.214E80B5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEHJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The best answer, perhaps, is to wink and say, "Buy it, and see."

Hal     "Beware the bomb concealed when
            a poet is being pleasant."
                              --Richard Eder, NY Times
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


  I had the same idea, but got so many comments on "What are you writing
about?  Are you taking notes?  Why are you taking notes?"  etc. etc.  fro
the boss, among others, that I just quit doing it.  (I forgot to mention one
of the other big comments at work, given that I've been a habitual
notebook-carrier since about age ten, is "What are you writing?  Are you
writing a novel?  Is it about us?"  I've never been able to come up with a
good answer to this question yet.)
  Moira Russell
  Seattle, WA
    _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From odysseus34  Sun Feb 17 15:08:24 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 13:08:24 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEHJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3C700DB0.96106DB5@earthlink.net>

Hal:  "The best answer, perhaps, is to wink and say, 'Buy it, and see.'"

And Jeffrey: "Ha. Well, I always say, yes, it's about you. I tell them
somebody has to record how this company's exemplary leadership so
beautifully balances
its responsibilities to the stockholders, the environment, the board,
the executives, the back-office and the bank."

Now those are both good ones -- and a lot more polite than the standard
one I have to bite back, "Who the hell would write a novel about an
office and even if I did, do you think someone working in an office
would pay good money in their off hours in order to relax and be taken
away by a no-frigate-like-a-book about....an OFFICE?"

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From grahamd  Sun Feb 17 16:23:43 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:23:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tiny Insane Voluptuousness
Message-ID: <200202172121.g1HLLBR61100@mx4.mx.voyager.net>

At the Desk

I spent the entire day in official details;
And  it almost pulled me down like the others:
I felt that tiny insane voluptuousness,
Getting this done, finally finishing that.
--Theodor Storm, trans. R. Bly

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stevens
>Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002, 2:08 PM
>

>Hal:  "The best answer, perhaps, is to wink and say, 'Buy it, and see.'"
>
>And Jeffrey: "Ha. Well, I always say, yes, it's about you. I tell them
>somebody has to record how this company's exemplary leadership so
>beautifully balances
>its responsibilities to the stockholders, the environment, the board,
>the executives, the back-office and the bank."
>
>Now those are both good ones -- and a lot more polite than the standard
>one I have to bite back, "Who the hell would write a novel about an
>office and even if I did, do you think someone working in an office
>would pay good money in their off hours in order to relax and be taken
>away by a no-frigate-like-a-book about....an OFFICE?"
>
>Moira Russell
>Seattle, WA
>



From halvard  Sun Feb 17 16:55:08 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 16:55:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tiny Insane Voluptuousness
In-Reply-To: <200202172121.g1HLLBR61100@mx4.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEHKEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Nice, David. Thanks.

Hal

   
{    At the Desk
{    
{    I spent the entire day in official details;
{    And  it almost pulled me down like the others:
{    I felt that tiny insane voluptuousness,
{    Getting this done, finally finishing that.
{    --Theodor Storm, trans. R. Bly
{    
{    ========================================
{    David Graham
{    grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
{    Home Page:
{    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
{    Poetry Library:
{    http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
{    ========================================
{    
{    
{    ----------
{    >From: odysseus34 <odysseus34 at earthlink.net>
{    >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stevens
{    >Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002, 2:08 PM
{    >
{    
{    >Hal:  "The best answer, perhaps, is to wink and say, 'Buy it, and see.'"
{    >
{    >And Jeffrey: "Ha. Well, I always say, yes, it's about you. I tell them
{    >somebody has to record how this company's exemplary leadership so
{    >beautifully balances
{    >its responsibilities to the stockholders, the environment, the board,
{    >the executives, the back-office and the bank."
{    >
{    >Now those are both good ones -- and a lot more polite than the standard
{    >one I have to bite back, "Who the hell would write a novel about an
{    >office and even if I did, do you think someone working in an office
{    >would pay good money in their off hours in order to relax and be taken
{    >away by a no-frigate-like-a-book about....an OFFICE?"
{    >
{    >Moira Russell
{    >Seattle, WA
{    >
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    



From CobbCoStudioArts  Sun Feb 17 17:57:55 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 14:57:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <20020217225755.45B4536F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From halvard  Sun Feb 17 17:59:03 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 17:59:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work: Charles Bernstein, "Company Life"
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEGNEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEHLEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Company Life

		consumation of impossible sorrows

residues of the previous

                                 marks

           as the motion of a glance

                                       scatters, as

                            misled, a kind of

                                             autumnal (puff

                                    quickly rushes

                                                   for, around

                 only asked

                                         makes much of

                            induced memory

                                               shouting to

                            amorous

                                          double view

                 I've

                                           meant to tell you

                          all, this

                                  otherwise unrecognizable

                             *encountered*

                                               with escalators confining the

                                    levels, we

                            overhear overmuch

                                                            are, am

                                                  shattered crystal, blown

                                  much as melts

                                                   & trickles, *I* wish

                                         miniaturized in our desires

                      as cubicle follows cubicle

                                          next to an out-of-doors

                             even more interior

                                                   (too plain

                                            a pie, glysemic

                                                    hope for sudden

                                                changes, lifts

                                         out or made for

                                                              clips

                                      pen & tie

                                                 *you* wish . . .

--Charles Bernstein


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From tadrichards  Sun Feb 17 18:36:33 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:36:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEHJEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net> <3C700DB0.96106DB5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c1b80b$f29cd500$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Well,you never know when a poem is going to pop up. I had given my poetry
workshop class an assignment to listen to people talking around them, and
write it down any time they heard someone say something in iambic
pentameter. I was sitting in a faculty meeting, and I decided to try it
myself. By the time I'd filled two pages in a notebook, and looked back over
what I'd written down, I realized it was sorta hanging together. Anyway,
here it is:


MINUTES OF THE LAST MEETING

It wouldn't interfere with what we do;
I couldn't really poll the entire group.
Very, very briefly, here's the plan
Elect the chairs of two committees first
(Able to run for these positions first)
Who'll want to lead the faculty towards greatness.

Within the AAC or SAC,
At least two people -- one is not enough -
The faculty at large will vote for chairs,
The AAC, I find, now having done it.

The AAC, last Monday, voted no
-Selected by the faculty at large-
And they pick someone who they think can lead.
Maybe the better thing would be to keep.
We have to somehow pull it all together.

Did everyone get a chance to sign the sheet?
There are seven searches underway


From Rsgwynn1  Sun Feb 17 18:45:24 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 18:45:24 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <3a.2228dd14.29a19a94@cs.com>

In a message dated 2/17/2002 4:59:32 PM Central Standard Time, 
CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes:


> [New Poetry],
> 
> This is a correction.  My art agent has informed me that the "Colesium" is 
> in Greensboro, not Asheboro, NC,
> as was previously mentioned.  So, If you would like to visit over coffee, 
> I'll be in GSO, not ASO
> 
> Bob Cobb
> 
> Poetry Catamaran
> 

I was wondering how many vacationers you'd find in Ashboro.  Hope your show 
is a success.
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From CobbCoStudioArts  Sun Feb 17 20:15:54 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 17:15:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
Message-ID: <20020218011554.31DCD2755@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From thebobcooperfor  Mon Feb 18 07:59:26 2002
From: thebobcooperfor (bob cooper)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:59:26 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] WORK AND POETRY
Message-ID: <F105XnDTn0sKTMLkEWB0000bfcb@hotmail.com>

Yeh,
I want to believe that Janet Holmes is right! But, in the end I feel she's 
just a tad more right than some other things that've been posted. (Though 
she's given me a lovely brashly coloured squidgy cartoon character of a poet 
trying to get a job in an insurance office just because the great Stevens 
worked in one. Sort of Donald Duck? The miseries of the rest of Stevens life 
would not only follow such a choice but would be compounded. The poetry, 
however, probably wouldn?t.)
But I sense the word that's not been used yet is the word distraction...
I know I?ve written most when I?ve been out of work. I also know, when I?ve 
been working, I?ve been surprised by what I?ve written about. I also want to 
believe that art, and poetry, comes by accidents that prompt (and if it?s a 
poem that?s to turn up, and we?re working at whatever, then let?s each of us 
hope there?s just enough time to get the initial scope of it down). It's not 
all accident, though. Maybe just the exciting ones are!
But there's another monster hole in this discussion aswell...
What about the comment about ?no writing when there?s a pram in the hall?? 
Is work merely what yr paid for, for one regular job, usually between 9-2-5?
At the moment (like a fair few of the writers I know) I've got a few 
part-time jobs (some of which pay regularly, if not well) and I hope (oh how 
I hope!) no new pram gets wedged in the hall! And the writing... well, once 
I get over the panic attacks of thinking it's all gone, will (like Mr. 
McCawber's income) hopefully turn up.
Bob

Anybody else see Donald Duck practising on an old harmonium, re-stringing a 
blue guitar, or (joy of joys) reciting The Idea Of Order...


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com




From bobgrumman  Mon Feb 18 09:59:02 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:59:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writing Op (Forwarded)
References: <F105XnDTn0sKTMLkEWB0000bfcb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002d01c1b88c$cf0aac80$cf04fea9@y3b2r8>

I did some entries for this but am too busy to
do more.  I thought maybe someone at New-Poetry
might be interested in doing one or more, though--
among those needing entries written is Cervalo.

                                         --Bob G.

Post from Burt Kimmelman follows:

I am editing A Companion to
Twentieth-Century American Poetry (for Facts on
File, Inc., a publisher that enjoys very wide distribution in libraries,
colleges and high schools, as well as bookstores). The project has been
ongoing for about a year, and the volume is scheduled to appear in 2004.
Some essay topics that had been assigned to people now have to be reassigned
(writers who thought they'd be able to contribute essays have found they
cannot do so after all), and so I am soliciting essayists to contribute to
the volume.

The volume will be peer reviewed. Payment for essays will be in
presentational offprints and, too, for the large topic essays, a copy of the
book. All essays will carry the author's name, and a list of contributors
will appear in the back of the book.

The list of entries for the volume can be viewed at this website:
http://eies.njit.edu/~kimmelma/companion.html; also at the website can be
found a set of guidelines for writing the essays as well as sample, model
essays.

If you are interested in writing for this book, then please contact me via
e-mail (see my eddress below), using the subject header Essays for Book (or
else simply reply to this message). If I don't know you, then please provide
me with a bit of background about yourself including a brief account of your
publishing history if you have one.

I look forward to hearing from you.


Cordially,

Burt

Dr. Burt Kimmelman, Associate Professor of English
Director, Undergraduate Studies,
Program in Professional and Technical Communication
Department of Humanities and Social Sciences
New Jersey Institute of Technology
Newark, New Jersey 07102
973.596.3376 (p); 973.642.4689 (f)
kimmelman at njit.edu
http://eies.njit.edu/~kimmelma




From paul.lake  Mon Feb 18 10:57:45 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:57:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Working class poetry
Message-ID: <B8968099.26F2%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

>Paul, if you were cranking out the poems while working as a
county pipe line inspector, good for you. I didn't have the
qualifications for such a position.


Qualifications? What qualifications.  I knew absolutely nothing about pipe
line construction.  It was all strictly on the job learning.

Paul Lake




From jholmes  Mon Feb 18 12:43:07 2002
From: jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:43:07 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work & poetry
Message-ID: <sc70dac9.003@athena.boisestate.edu>

Moira wrote: 

>> Who had any questions about legitimacy?  I really don't think that
was the point of the original discussion.  It started off with some
slightly gossipy stuff about Maya Angelou, Billy Collins, and money, and
evolved into talking about working poets/poets who work -- the age-old
balance between trying to write and trying to earn a living.  If that
problem doesn't concern you, you are very lucky. <<

Erm, Moira--Why so tetchy? Believe it or not, I've been following the
discussion. I didn't realize I couldn't respond to a single posting, but
had to take the entire thread on. My response was to Finnegan's pointing
out that Grosholz was not an *English* professor. Forgive me if I posted
uninvited.

That said, I don't see that the discussion actually *has* been about the
"age-old balance between trying to write and trying to earn a living."
It seemed to be about whether and how the jobs poets held migrated into
the poems they wrote. At this point, it seems to be about poems about
work.

>> I was particularly interested in poets who have had jobs other than
teaching, not because I think it's easy to teach, not because I think
it's easy to get into teaching (particularly now) but just because I 
personally don't now teach and it doesn't look likely in the future. <<

Well, I'll be happy to post about how it is to write while working
nights as a typesetter, holding two fulltime jobs at a time, being a
technical writer, managing a weekly newspaper, supervising software
engineering projects, or moving up the exec ladder at a financial
printing firm. But I don't see why anyone would care--especially as
those weren't topics in the poems. I wouldn't recommend my own ways of
coping with the "age-old balance" for anyone else, particularly,
especially as some of them could be seen as detrimental to one's health.

Am I very lucky? (Is this a matter of general interest, or just a nasty
swipe?) Thank God, yes, I am lucky--in many ways other than having
landed a teaching job in these times. (I've been on tenure track all of
two and a half years.) I wouldn't count as part of that luck, however,
not having had to worry about balancing writing time and work life. I
*would* count *being able* to balance them, and I wish you the best of
luck finding that balance yourself.

Janet



From halvard  Mon Feb 18 12:45:37 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:45:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Query
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEIIEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Anyone have the full poem from which this comes? It's
from Allen Tate's *Sonnets of the Blood*.

                        What is the flesh and blood compounded of
                        But a few moments in the life of time?
                        This prowling of the cells, litigious love,
                        Wears the long claw of flesh-arguing crime.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From TerryP17  Mon Feb 18 12:48:27 2002
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:48:27 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <15c.89f1c4f.29a2986b@aol.com>

All--

<<I'm grateful for good poetry; I don't give a shit what the poet was
doing to support the writing of it. Debates like these are ultimately
ridiculous. In fact, they're ridiculous from the beginning. They're not
about poetry.>>

Incorrect, I think, but we'll get back to this.

Sorry to come in late on this thread, but I've been off at my weekend place 
in WV without a phone or email, or even CNN (!) Doesn't get much more working 
class than that. This thread is probably petering out a bit, having spent 
most of its passion, appropriately, on or about Valentine's Day, but it 
involves some interesting ideas, so here's my 3 cents' worth.

First of all, what a poet does to support his/her habit has, in my mind, 
everything to do with poetry. Writers in all forms, prose, poetry, whatever, 
end up being informed by family, friends, and what it is that they do to make 
money. This invariably rubs off on what is written, either by inspiring the 
subject matter or by underpinning the attitude toward the subject matter, or 
perhaps even the structure of what is written. So I would disagree that 
discussions like this are ridiculous. They are not. They provide some needed 
introspection on the nature of the art as well as its content.

Re: the academics vs. working stiff subthread. Also interesting. 
Academics--specifically tenured academics at major universities--who make any 
effort to write do, in fact, have a better environment for this than 
elsewhere. They have semester breaks and summer vacations, all of which 
provide long stretches whereby one can research and write. Not necessarily 
the case for 9 to 5ers in the workplace, most of whom are lucky to get 3 
weeks' vacation after 10 years of service if they don't get laid off first. 
All this, too, influences what one writes.

This having been said, the academic paradise I describe above is steadily 
shrinking, becoming the privilege of a very few, and perhaps these will be 
gone tomorrow. With heavy workloads at smaller colleges and community 
colleges and the seemingly unstoppable increase in overloaded graduate 
instructors and slave-wage adjuncts vs. tenured slots--well, these folks have 
it worse off than practically anyone. Just a few short years ago, the 
advantages between academic and workaday living with regard to the writing 
life were pretty easy to distinguish. But today, the working environments of 
town vs. gown are rapidly becoming indistinguishable.

Anyhow, random thoughts on a decent thread.

BTW, poets both academic and not appear in the latest issue of Edge City 
Review, just out rather late as a result of last fall's unpleasant history. 
We'll be posting selected new poetry from this issue to our website a bit 
later this week.

Have a good holiday,

--Terry Ponick



From jholmes  Mon Feb 18 12:52:11 2002
From: jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 10:52:11 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
Message-ID: <sc70dcec.013@athena.boisestate.edu>

Paul Lake wrote: 

>> Qualifications? What qualifications.  I knew absolutely nothing about
pipe line construction.  It was all strictly on the job learning. <<


Hi Paul. Calm down. I was joking. I'll let you know, though, next time I
hear of a 5'0", 100 lb woman being hired (with admittedly no
qualifications) for a construction inspector's position that she could
learn on the job which really consists of doing no work! (Or maybe you
don't think that's funny? I do. In a kind of wry way.)



From halvard  Mon Feb 18 12:51:30 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:51:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work & poetry
In-Reply-To: <sc70dac9.003@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEIIEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Janet, this just reminded me that once, way back when I was
young,--once, mind you--actually wrote a poem while I was
standing before a class teaching. And the words I was writing
had nothing (hard to prove, I know) to do with the words
coming out of my mouth. Problem is I'd never be able to tell
you today what poem that was. And that's probably better
for all of us.

{    Well, I'll be happy to post about how it is to write while working

Hal     "metaphor--I use them. They keep me regular."
                         --Paul Violi

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From gmcvay  Mon Feb 18 13:01:22 2002
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:01:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <sc70dcec.013@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202181258450.26989-100000@adams.patriot.net>

> Hi Paul. Calm down. I was joking. I'll let you know, though, next time I
> hear of a 5'0", 100 lb woman being hired (with admittedly no
> qualifications) for a construction inspector's position that she could
> learn on the job which really consists of doing no work! (Or maybe you
> don't think that's funny? I do. In a kind of wry way.)
> _______________________________________________

Hi Janet. I'm 4'11" and recently had an offer by a master stonemason to
teach me to cut stone. He says it's not brute strength per se, as the
chisel is not gripped but rather rides loosely in the fist; it's being
able to stand the repetitive movements. Admittedly I see things through
Zen-colored glasses (all colors and no color at the same time, of course),
but I can't help thinking the "donk... donk... donk" all day might be
better at letting the subconscious percolate than my current IT job.

Gwyn




From paul.lake  Mon Feb 18 13:06:01 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:06:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <sc70dcec.013@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <B8969EA8.2701%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/18/02 11:52 AM, Janet Holmes at jholmes at boisestate.edu wrote:

> Paul Lake wrote: 
> 
>>> Qualifications? What qualifications.  I knew absolutely nothing about
> pipe line construction.  It was all strictly on the job learning. <<
> 
> 
> Hi Paul. Calm down. I was joking. I'll let you know, though, next time I
> hear of a 5'0", 100 lb woman being hired (with admittedly no
> qualifications) for a construction inspector's position that she could
> learn on the job which really consists of doing no work! (Or maybe you
> don't think that's funny? I do. In a kind of wry way.)
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Janet, I did think it was funny and hope the tone of my response was also
funny.  I got the job because my dad knew someone in the county personnel
office.  I spent six months tagging along behind a real character named Norm
Parslow, a seventy something old inspector who taught me the ropes, such as
they were.  I was a terrible inspector, spending as little time watching the
actual laying of pipe as possible.  I didn't keep my maps up for months at a
time since nobody ever visited the job site. Then when they were due, I'd
color in everything in about five minutes.  Funny thing was, I always got
compliments from my boss about how neat and accurate my maps were.

Never hire a poet to inspect construction of any kind--especially nuclear
plants.

My worse job, as far as being a poet goes, was my two year stint teaching in
a ghetto junior high in Baltimore.  After work, I'd be so exhausted I'd take
two and three hour naps.  I must have written some of the poems that got me
a grad fellowship at the time, but I'll be damned if I can remember writing
anything those two years.

Paul Lake




From MillB  Mon Feb 18 13:10:57 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:10:57 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work & poetry
Message-ID: <30.225f9702.29a29db1@aol.com>

Janet:

I was not aware that a person had to respond to all of the threads when 
responding to the newsgroup!!!$!@#$

As for me, my goal every year is to write full time as much as possible.  I 
also do tech writing. I make the proverbial big bucks as a freelancer in the 
biz world. . .until the project ends or I get fed up. . .then take time off 
to write. . .adding to my income by teaching as an adjunct. . .I've found 
that teaching, for me, eats into the very heart of my work. . .I can come 
home after 15 hours days of software testing. .. and write.  However, I 
cannot come home after teaching. . .teaching seems to use the same brain 
cells. . .as writing for me. . .I worry. . .I grade papers. . .I plan 
lessons. . .I review textbooks. . .

Is anyone else going to AWP?  I'm just unpacking from NY and thinking of New 
Orleans. . .

Maybe we could plan a get-together at the conference?

Cheers,

Mill



From paul.lake  Mon Feb 18 13:10:00 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:10:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202181258450.26989-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-ID: <B8969F98.2704%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/18/02 12:01 PM, Gwyn McVay at gmcvay at patriot.net wrote:

>> Hi Paul. Calm down. I was joking. I'll let you know, though, next time I
>> hear of a 5'0", 100 lb woman being hired (with admittedly no
>> qualifications) for a construction inspector's position that she could
>> learn on the job which really consists of doing no work! (Or maybe you
>> don't think that's funny? I do. In a kind of wry way.)
>> _______________________________________________
> 
> Hi Janet. I'm 4'11" and recently had an offer by a master stonemason to
> teach me to cut stone. He says it's not brute strength per se, as the
> chisel is not gripped but rather rides loosely in the fist; it's being
> able to stand the repetitive movements. Admittedly I see things through
> Zen-colored glasses (all colors and no color at the same time, of course),
> but I can't help thinking the "donk... donk... donk" all day might be
> better at letting the subconscious percolate than my current IT job.
> 
> Gwyn
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
Thanks, Gwyn. I will never get the picture out of my head of you sitting
before a massive stone, striking it with a steady donk, donk, donk. Doesn't
sound like an ideal job for anyone in the hundred pound range.  I knew a guy
at my local grocery store who quit there to become a brick layer.  Six
months later, he looked like Arnold What's His Name.

Best stick to inspecting, which requires no strength or skill of any kind.

Paul




From Thom424  Mon Feb 18 14:11:37 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:11:37 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Work & poetry
Message-ID: <158.927182f.29a2abe9@aol.com>

       What Work Is

       --Philip Levine

              We stand in the rain in a long line
              waiting at Ford Highland Park. For work.
              You know what work is--if you're
              old enough to read this you know what
              work is, although you may not do it.
              Forget you. This is about waiting,
              shifting from one foot to another.
              Feeling the light rain falling like mist
              into your hair, blurring your vision
              until you think you see your own brother
              ahead of you, maybe ten places.
              You rub your glasses with your fingers,
              and of course it's someone else's brother,
              narrower across the shoulders than
              yours but with the same sad slouch, the grin
              that does not hide the stubbornness,
              the sad refusal to give in to
              rain, to the hours wasted waiting,
              to the knowledge that somewhere ahead
              a man is waiting who will say, "No,
              we're not hiring today," for any
              reason he wants. You love your brother,
              now suddenly you can hardly stand
              the love flooding you for your brother,
              who's not beside you or behind or
              ahead because he's home trying to
              sleep off a miserable night shift
              at Cadillac so he can get up
              before noon to study his German.
              Works eight hours a night so he can sing
              Wagner, the opera you hate most,
              the worst music ever invented.
              How long has it been since you told him
              you loved him, held his wide shoulders,
              opened your eyes wide and said those words,
              and maybe kissed his cheek? You've never
              done something so simple, so obvious,
              not because you're too young or too dumb,
              not because you're jealous or even mean
              or incapable of crying in
              the presence of another man, no,
              just because you don't know what work is.



Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN 



From JforJames  Mon Feb 18 14:22:15 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:22:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Work and Poetry
Message-ID: <7d.2283f4d6.29a2ae67@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/16/02 3:23:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jholmes at boisestate.edu writes:
>  These are just my opinions, Jim--I'm just sharing them on the list along
>  with everyone else. I'm sorry if they seem provocative.
>  
Janet and others,
no problem for me...I don't see this as a particularly "charged discussion."
I do want to go on record as saying "Keep up the good work,"  to all 
the educators on this list. I mean that. All jobs are jobs; and as others
have pointed out, there's a wide variety of work out there in academia:  
Tenured Poet-in-Residence holding an endowed chair to adjunct splitting 
his/her time between more than one campus. My point was that 
it's unimaginable that poetry, or any writing, is impervious to life's
and the world's influences: Work is one of the many influences; 
and its evidence may be more or less overt from one poet to another.

If one decides to write a suite of poems about what it is he/she
does all day, or just an odd poem or two throught the oeuvre, 
or if he/she purposefully decide not a word directly or indirectly
related to employment, or even if one unconsciously blocks 
work out from the mind that writes the poem, then all these are 
in a way the influence of one's work on the art. But I'm getting
philosophic...

I've been reading more philosophy than poetry of late. So I do hope it's 
true that an Emily Grosholz, or a John Koethe, another philosophy
professor, if I recall correctly, would bring to her or hisr poetry a 
different 
perspective, or an aspect less revealed. Not better, not more important 
than a teacher of Shakespeare or African-American studies, just different. 
But maybe not; there's no telling. As was said, Stevens' day job showed 
up hardly at all in the concerns of his poetry...there is more philosophy 
in Stevens than insurance business or law. (Santayana was one of his 
teachers at Harvard, I belileve.) I do remember it being said in one 
biography 
that Stevens tried to keep his life in poetry out-of-sight & out-of-mind when 
it came to his colleagues at work. I seriously doubt that he openly dictated 
poems to his secretary...but I could be wrong...I often am. I do know that
he frequented a businessman's hangout called the Canoe Club...& I doubt 
that poetry was discussed much over lunch with his cronies at that club.
Finnegan 
 



From JforJames  Mon Feb 18 14:40:17 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:40:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Victor Hugo at 200
Message-ID: <83.16fceddd.29a2b2a1@aol.com>

Victor Hugo 
An interrupted sentence

Feb 14th 2002 


From Jholmes  Mon Feb 18 15:14:37 2002
From: Jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:14:37 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <sc70fe59.048@athena.boisestate.edu>

Terry wrote:

>> Sorry to come in late on this thread, but I've been off at my
weekend place 
in WV without a phone or email, or even CNN (!) Doesn't get much more
working 
class than that. <<

Heh, if your definition of working class means owning a weekend place
far from the madding crowd, I guess it doesn't!

Nobody's yet convinced me that talking about how others seem to have
managed their work lives and writing lives is important, not even your
telling me outright I am incorrect in my opinion. Of course, I'm
speaking from the point of view of a writer, not of a literary scholar,
sociologist, philosopher, or gossip, for any of whom it may be thrilling
information. As a poet, I've found others' prescriptions for balancing
work for money and art work singularly useless. (In the same manner, I
find Dear Abby's advice inapplicable in my daily life.)

>> Just a few short years ago, the advantages between academic and
workaday living with regard to the writing life were pretty easy to
distinguish. But today, the working environments of town vs. gown are
rapidly becoming indistinguishable. <<

I agree completely. Like state legislatures who believe professors work
only three or four hours a week, the public forgets that many professors
have lives dominated by meetings, or teach summer school to supplement
their salaries, or (as many creative writing teachers do) pile up as
many summer teaching assignments as they can--because salaries are
significantly lower in academe than they are in any other field for
which the same amount of education is required. The trade-off is worth
it for a lot of us (as I said, the work you stay up at night writing is,
if minimally, rewarded in academe), but the idea that it requires no
sacrifice is uninformed.

Janet




From wjbat  Mon Feb 18 18:33:09 2002
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:33:09 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202181258450.26989-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-ID: <20020218153309.014969@oak.cc.conncoll.edu>

Gwyn McVay  wrote:
> I'm 4'11" and recently had an offer by a master stonemason to
>teach me to cut stone. He says it's not brute strength per se, as the
>chisel is not gripped but rather rides loosely in the fist; it's being
>able to stand the repetitive movements. Admittedly I see things through
>Zen-colored glasses (all colors and no color at the same time, of course),
>but I can't help thinking the "donk... donk... donk" all day might be
>better at letting the subconscious percolate than my current IT job.

Go for it, Gwyn!

Wendy, who often misses the synchrotron lab




From halvard  Mon Feb 18 15:50:18 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:50:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <sc70fe59.048@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEINEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Here's a taste of John Ashbery's art criticism, c. '65 (ArtNews). I'm
posting it here in this still-vibrating thread because it touches on the
matter of work environment, and certainly what he says he about
painters working far from the pulsing, moneyed heart applies as well
to poets marinating their lines far from any full-blown "scene."

These are the first three paragraphs of a review of a show by Joan
Mitchell.


"Joan Mitchell is one of the American artisits who live in Paris for
extra-artistic reasons and who are different in that way from the
American who went to live there before the last war. They are not
expatriates but *apatrides*. Finding Europe only slightly more
congenial that America, they have stayed on for various reasons,
some of them 'personal'--but do artists ever have any other kind
of reason? A personal reason can mean being in love or liking the
food or the look of the roofs across the courtyard--or in some
cases the art. The *apatrides* of today are usually affected by one
or more of these reasons melting together and producing a rather
negative feeling of being at home. Far from dreading the day when
their money runs out and they have to go back to America, many
of them look forward disgruntledly to it. They feel they should
have gone back long ago to become successes instead of staying
on in this city famous for its angry inhabitants, high living costs and
lack of any sustained excitement in the contemporary arts.

"Joan Mitchell is a radical example of this kind of American. Her
reasons for living here are strictly person. That is, she likes her
friends, her three dogs, her studio in the plebian 15th Arrondissement,
her frequent trips to the Riviera from where she goes boating to
Corsica, Italy and Greece. And that's about it. She rarely goes to
the theater, movies or exhibitions (except to friends' openings)
and never to parties. Her social life is limited to having friends
over to lunch, and sometimes going at night to one of the 
Montparnasse bars frequented by American painters. She has
French friends but few of them are painters. In a word, she does
not participate in the cultural life of Paris, and although she can
be said to live and work there, the city is little more than a backdrop
for these activities. And that is perhaps the secret attraction of Paris
for Americans today. Unlike New York and most other capitals,
it provides a still neutral climate in which one can work pretty much
as one chooses.

"And it is precisely this lack of interference, even when it takes the
saddening form of dealers and collectors losing sight of one, that is
a force in much of the painting being done today by Americans abroad.
This is perhaps less true of Joan Mitchell than of the majority of
American painters in Paris, since she was established in America before
coming to live here, and has continued to show in New York and to 
return there for visits. Still, one feels that the calm of Paris and the fact
that it is far from where the money is being made have affected her
work (as well as that of Shirley Jaffe, Kimber Smith, Norman Bluhm,
James Bishop, Beryl Barr-Sharrar and others). The exalting and the
deadening effects of an abundance of cash and action are alike absent
from her work. It looks strong and relaxed, classical and refreshing at
the same time; it has both the time and the will to be itself. To the
strength, the capacity for sizing up a situation, the instinctive knowledge
of what painting is all about which characterize the best postwar art in
America, the sojourn in Paris has contributed intelligence and 
introspection which heighten rather than attenuate these gifts. It seems
that such an artist has ripened more slowly and more naturally
in the Parisian climate of indifference than she might have in the
intensive-care wards of New York."

--John Ashbery

Ashbery then goes on to discuss Mitchell's work in more detail, and,
yes, I know, this is more about work as art-work than as work-work.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From trbell  Mon Feb 18 19:57:43 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:57:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
References: <sc70fe59.048@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <01e801c1b8e0$716034c0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

misemployment (new word) might be of interest in this thread?
http://www.mwknowles.com/wt/Articles/Miscellaneous_Interest/misemployment/mi
semployment.html

tom bell

----- Original Message -----
From: "Janet Holmes" <Jholmes at boisestate.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 2:14 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work


> Terry wrote:
>
> >> Sorry to come in late on this thread, but I've been off at my
> weekend place
> in WV without a phone or email, or even CNN (!) Doesn't get much more
> working
> class than that. <<
>
> Heh, if your definition of working class means owning a weekend place
> far from the madding crowd, I guess it doesn't!
>
> Nobody's yet convinced me that talking about how others seem to have
> managed their work lives and writing lives is important, not even your
> telling me outright I am incorrect in my opinion. Of course, I'm
> speaking from the point of view of a writer, not of a literary scholar,
> sociologist, philosopher, or gossip, for any of whom it may be thrilling
> information. As a poet, I've found others' prescriptions for balancing
> work for money and art work singularly useless. (In the same manner, I
> find Dear Abby's advice inapplicable in my daily life.)
>
> >> Just a few short years ago, the advantages between academic and
> workaday living with regard to the writing life were pretty easy to
> distinguish. But today, the working environments of town vs. gown are
> rapidly becoming indistinguishable. <<
>
> I agree completely. Like state legislatures who believe professors work
> only three or four hours a week, the public forgets that many professors
> have lives dominated by meetings, or teach summer school to supplement
> their salaries, or (as many creative writing teachers do) pile up as
> many summer teaching assignments as they can--because salaries are
> significantly lower in academe than they are in any other field for
> which the same amount of education is required. The trade-off is worth
> it for a lot of us (as I said, the work you stay up at night writing is,
> if minimally, rewarded in academe), but the idea that it requires no
> sacrifice is uninformed.
>
> Janet
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Mon Feb 18 17:03:16 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:03:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Some Santayana apropos of nothing in particular
Message-ID: <6.243d85ef.29a2d424@aol.com>

Pure poetry is pure experiment; and it is not strange that nine-tenths of it
should be pure failure. For it matters little what unutterable things may 
have originally gone together with a phrase in the dreamer's mind; if they 
were not uttered and the phrase cannot call them back, this verbal relic 
is none richer for the high company it may once have kept. Expressiveness 
is a most accidental matter. What a line suggest at one reading, it may 
never suggest again even to the same person. For this reason, among others, 
poets are partial to their own compositions; they truly discover there depths 
of meaning which exist for nobody else. Those readers who appropriate a 
poet and make him their own fall into a similar illusion; they attribute to 
him what they themselves supply...

Popular poets are the parish priests of the Muse, retailing
her ancient divinations to a long since converted public.
        --George Santayana (Essays in Literary Criticism)



From JforJames  Mon Feb 18 17:17:44 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:17:44 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The End of the Poem
Message-ID: <ae.2286e58c.29a2d788@aol.com>

Here's a take on some essays that may be of interest...

Re: agamben    Joe Amato  
  Feb 12, 2002 14:17 PST   
i finally had a chance to look at giorgio agamben's ~the end of the 
poem: studies in poetics~ (stanford up, 1999, trans. daniel 
heller-roazen)... essentially it's a slim collection of previously 
published essays...

agamben is a nice writer (in translation, though i'm actually 
somewhat wary of this translation) who looks to be something of an 
unreconstructed poststructuralist (?)... took a bit of getting used 
to, as agamben is coming from italian lit per se, and his sense of 
poetry is rooted in metrical verse... ergo you get passages (in the 
title piece, which comes at the end of the volume) such as:

"Awareness of the importance of the opposition between metrical 
segmentation and semantic segmentation has led some scholars to state 
the thesis (which I share) according to which the possibility of 
enjambment constitutes the only criterion for distinguishing poetry 
from prose. For what is enjambment, if not the opposition of a 
metrical limit to a syntactical limit, of a prosodic pause to a 
semantic pause? 'Poetry' will then be the name given to the 
discourse in which this opposition is, at least virtually, possible; 
'prose' will be the name for the discourse in which this opposition 
cannot take place." (109)

you can't even understand what agamben is saying, i think, unless you 
already imagine poetry as verse, and the verse line as a moment 
essentially of potential enjambment (i mean, there are so many other 
possibilities here, right?)... agamben is after, ysee, the notion 
that "poetry lives only in the tension and difference (and hence also 
in the virtual interference) between sound and sense, between the 
semiotic and the semantic sphere"... which leads to an engaging 
discussion re the end of the poem, as the possibility for enjambment 
is nil at this point in the poem---i mean, no line follows the last 
line, obviously, so metrical and semantic realities coincide (to what 
effect?)---which might say something about the nature of poetry as 
such (and rhyme and such like)...

(well, to paraphrase badly: for agamben, the end of the poem 
provides us with the philosophical essense of poetry... )

but in any case, agamben's discussion of poetry is, for me, just too 
closely wound around metrical, written composition... still, he's got 
a great historical grasp, esp. of things medieval, and i found both 
the essay "the dictation of poetry" and esp. the discussion around p. 
93 (the essay "expropriated manner") helpful in some sense... from 
which latter:

"Why does poetry matter? The ways in which answers to this question 
are offered testify to its absolute importance. For the field of 
possible respondents is clearly divided between those who affirm the 
significance of poetry only on condition of altogether confusing it 
with life and those for whom the significance of poetry is instead 
exclusively a function of its isolation from life. Both groups 
thereby betray their apparent intention: the first, because they 
sacrifice poetry to the life into which they resolve it; the second, 
because in the last analysis they are convinced of poetry's impotence 
with respect to life. Romanticism and aestheticism, which confuse 
life and poetry at every step, are just as foolish as Olympian 
classicism and well-meaning secularism, which everywhere keep life 
and poetry apart, destining humanity to transmit a patrimony that is 
holy but that has become useless precisely in the issue that should 
have become decisive.

"Opposed to these two positions is the experience of the poet, who 
affirms that if poetry and life remain infinitely divergent on the 
level of the biography and psychology of the individual, they 
nevertheless become absolutely indistinct at the point of their 
reciprocal desubjectivization. And-at that point-they are united not 
immediately but in a medium. This medium is language. The poet is 
he who, in the word, produces life. Life, which the poet produces in 
the poem, withdraws from both the lived experience of the 
psychoanalytic individual and the biological unsayability of the 
species."

and so on...

best,

joe  



From wasanthony  Mon Feb 18 18:41:15 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:41:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Some Santayana apropos of nothing in particular
In-Reply-To: <6.243d85ef.29a2d424@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20020218234115.6584.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com>

James:  Thanks for posting this.  I somehow needed to hear something
like that at this particular moment.  Not to look a gift horse in the
mouth, but the last  sentence "Popular poets are the parish priests of
the Muse, retailing her ancient divinations to a long since converted
public," has contradictory pathologies embedded within it.   And a lot
of the usual suspects connected with them have been mentioned here
recently.  Nuff said.

- Jim

--- JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Pure poetry is pure experiment; and it is not strange that
> nine-tenths of it
> should be pure failure. For it matters little what unutterable things
> may 
> have originally gone together with a phrase in the dreamer's mind; if
> they 
> were not uttered and the phrase cannot call them back, this verbal
> relic 
> is none richer for the high company it may once have kept.
> Expressiveness 
> is a most accidental matter. What a line suggest at one reading, it
> may 
> never suggest again even to the same person. For this reason, among
> others, 
> poets are partial to their own compositions; they truly discover
> there depths 
> of meaning which exist for nobody else. Those readers who appropriate
> a 
> poet and make him their own fall into a similar illusion; they
> attribute to 
> him what they themselves supply...
> 
> Popular poets are the parish priests of the Muse, retailing
> her ancient divinations to a long since converted public.
>         --George Santayana (Essays in Literary Criticism)
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>

Readings: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/readings.html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From snospx  Mon Feb 18 19:18:16 2002
From: snospx (Barry Spacks)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:18:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stevens, et al
In-Reply-To: <200202181940.g1IJe6Z30457@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020218161816.007ee100@snowcrest.net>

At 02:40 PM 2/18/02 -0500, Finnegan wrote:
I seriously doubt that he openly dictated 
>poems to his secretary...

the version I picked up is that he'd
write in his head, Frost-style, on the way to the
office, continue in longhand at his desk, and then
have his secretary type 'em up -- impossible to
imagine him dictating poems.

Two Stevens anecdotes thrown in:

(1) It's said that his poem "As You Leave the Room" was
based on an impromptu from a Harvard reading that went
on too long and resulted in audience disappearing while
the master continued his outpour;

(2) As one of the editors of a little mag back during the
Punic Wars, I sent off telegrams (a staff inspiration) to
e.e. cummings, W.C. Williams, and Stevens asking for a
poem. We said please respond by collect telegram if
you can't grace us with some of your work. Cummings
sent a poem, Williams sent a poem (then withdrew it
as not good enough, offering a substitute). Stevens
billed us for a collect telegram.

Maybe there's a little thread here about the generosity of poets?

B.






From Cadaly  Mon Feb 18 19:51:31 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:51:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
Message-ID: <d3.6c435be.29a2fb94@aol.com>

There are several reasons the relationships between working and English literature and writing things other than poetry are very very important, and one of them is the current position of the MFA in the academy and the way the programs are structured.

Many, though not all, programs use the "no teaching jobs are available" "Walllace Stevens" "you're all adults with professions doing this for fun" positions to do absolutely nothing as far as jobs/guidance counselling for students, and offer no coursework that would actually lead to jobs, such as preparation for the style manual exams, creation of portfolios and samples for writing or media jobs, etc.

Several new MFA and Creative dissertation PhD programs take this farther:  since you will not ever be teaching poetry, as part of your admissions essay, write why you want to have a career teaching comp / rhet; or since you will not be teaching, no teaching fellowships are available to you, etc.

Academic work during the MFA is often discouraged.  To me, ten years ago, this was always presented as the Sylvia Plath in Chemistry class model, where even as a student in the sciences, she just used to time to be inspired and use the foreignness of the vocabulary and concepts as inspiration.  Thus, "you can take outside courses, but not for a grade."

Additionally, in the PhD programs in literature, creative writing and publication as a hobby is encouraged; now, when there is only a course or two in creative writing available to teach, a PhD with a few stories published will be preferred to an MFA with more extensive publication.  Carrying that even further, UCLA, which does not offer creative writing on the graduate level, and has little funding available until C. Phil, encourages graduate students to assemble creative work to apply for NEA funding <so that they may use this funding to pay for their tuition and expenses rather than to use it to complete art works>.

Rgds,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net



From tadrichards  Mon Feb 18 20:38:10 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 20:38:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
References: <B8969F98.2704%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <009901c1b8e6$179ae2e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

We offer a a class in dry-key stone masonry at Opus 40, and people of all
genders and sizes take it.

Tad



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Lake" <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Qualifications


> on 2/18/02 12:01 PM, Gwyn McVay at gmcvay at patriot.net wrote:
>
> >> Hi Paul. Calm down. I was joking. I'll let you know, though, next time
I
> >> hear of a 5'0", 100 lb woman being hired (with admittedly no
> >> qualifications) for a construction inspector's position that she could
> >> learn on the job which really consists of doing no work! (Or maybe you
> >> don't think that's funny? I do. In a kind of wry way.)
> >> _______________________________________________
> >
> > Hi Janet. I'm 4'11" and recently had an offer by a master stonemason to
> > teach me to cut stone. He says it's not brute strength per se, as the
> > chisel is not gripped but rather rides loosely in the fist; it's being
> > able to stand the repetitive movements. Admittedly I see things through
> > Zen-colored glasses (all colors and no color at the same time, of
course),
> > but I can't help thinking the "donk... donk... donk" all day might be
> > better at letting the subconscious percolate than my current IT job.
> >
> > Gwyn
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> Thanks, Gwyn. I will never get the picture out of my head of you sitting
> before a massive stone, striking it with a steady donk, donk, donk.
Doesn't
> sound like an ideal job for anyone in the hundred pound range.  I knew a
guy
> at my local grocery store who quit there to become a brick layer.  Six
> months later, he looked like Arnold What's His Name.
>
> Best stick to inspecting, which requires no strength or skill of any kind.
>
> Paul
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From grahamd  Mon Feb 18 20:44:16 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:44:16 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] CFP: Work Anthology
Message-ID: <200202190141.g1J1fpF97220@mx14.mx.voyager.net>

A Call for Manuscripts! Writings that Witness and Reveal Working Hard for
the 
Money: America's Working Poor: Stories and Poems Fiction?Poems? Personal 
Essays? Reportage.   Bottom Dog Press wants to publish a strong book of 
writings for, by, and about America's Working Poor: Working Class, Poor, 
Homeless, Down But Not Out. Give voice to the perspective of workers and 
families struggling to get by. Editors: Mary E. Weems & Larry Smith.   
Payment: $25-$50 and 2 copies.  We will consider reprints. Please indicate 
place and date of publication.  Include a short 75 wd. bio sketch.  Length 
limit to 3 poems, prose to 5,000 wds.   No online submissions. Include SASE.
 
Send to: Bottom Dog Press "Working Hard", c/o Firelands College, Huron, Ohio

44839.  Deadline: March 4, 2002 


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




From trbell  Tue Feb 19 02:02:33 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:02:33 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
References: <d3.6c435be.29a2fb94@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c1b913$68799440$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

Unless I disremember most working class poetry tends to be traditional and
content-focused.  I wonder if this is a product of writing down or of trying
to communicate with them (or us)?

I'd be interested in any counter examples, i.e., experimental working
poetry.

tom bell




From Cadaly  Mon Feb 18 22:24:15 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:24:15 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
Message-ID: <18c.38dc3fb.29a31f5f@aol.com>

one of the poets in combo -- mark sardinha? works on a factory line --
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From gmcvay  Mon Feb 18 22:42:00 2002
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:42:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
References: <B8969F98.2704%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu> <009901c1b8e6$179ae2e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3C71C983.7E247495@patriot.net>

Tad,

I'd love a pointer to more info about that stonemasonry class, and what
"dry-key" means, and all that good stuff.

Part of this is to honor my favorite high school teacher ever, my
extremely supportive and wonderful art teacher, who died far too early
of AIDS. He was an exhibiting sculptor who for some reason spent his
energy teaching strange kids. He cut huge, ribbed, geometric blocks of
Carrara marble.

Thanks--Gwyn



From antrobin  Mon Feb 18 22:44:46 2002
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:44:46 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
References: <d3.6c435be.29a2fb94@aol.com> <001f01c1b913$68799440$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>
Message-ID: <017201c1b8f7$ce85e980$45aeefd8@0021936706>

Hmm.

Here's my stab at "experimental working class poetry"---this poem appears in
the last issue of Exquisite Corpse, as well.

Tony
_______________
Signage

"This bathroom is being clean by a lady janitor"
What this mean (s)      anyone's guess     conjecture

often leads
                    to fresh perception, but it may not
always be useful                       the horse/water tale

could apply      my guess      that she's pristine,
like porcelain          and your problem is the pronoun-

which makes you       tense.  In            the primordial heat
and mess of last week-language        was grunts,

gestures used to convey desire:  hunger, lust,
extreme unction   /    and we continue         to dwell

in inhospitable zones     /     so very hot in here,
the lady janitor wears a glass slipper and confounds

even the most princely of     expectations     you want
a last page, a period /
                                the wind is your nemesis




***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be
better left alone."
Kenneth Koch

***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in
us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"


----- Original Message -----
From: <trbell at home.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry


> Unless I disremember most working class poetry tends to be traditional and
> content-focused.  I wonder if this is a product of writing down or of
trying
> to communicate with them (or us)?
>
> I'd be interested in any counter examples, i.e., experimental working
> poetry.
>
> tom bell
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From tadrichards  Mon Feb 18 23:06:54 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:06:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
References: <18c.38dc3fb.29a31f5f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00fd01c1b8fa$dff9a820$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

The working man will never know
What Auden means, who loves him so.

I forget the author....


Tad



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards

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From bardo  Mon Feb 18 23:35:41 2002
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:35:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
References: <d3.6c435be.29a2fb94@aol.com>
 <001f01c1b913$68799440$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>
 <017201c1b8f7$ce85e980$45aeefd8@0021936706>
Message-ID: <00b101c1b8fe$e3a91ec0$7692be18@danielzi>

Thanks, Tony: nice speculation.

That sign says to me: don't pee here *just now,* eh?
But hey: the wind ain't no nemesis unless you break it.
& if you do, that lady may not want to poke her toe
into the glass slipper poets lamely tend to tote around
just to get to slip into the wearer. (btw: "extreme unction"
fits peculiarly well as 'extreme grunt')

Dan
relapsed/elapsed/prolapsed Catholic


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry


> Hmm.
>
> Here's my stab at "experimental working class poetry"---this poem appears
in
> the last issue of Exquisite Corpse, as well.
>
> Tony
> _______________
> Signage
>
> "This bathroom is being clean by a lady janitor"
> What this mean (s)      anyone's guess     conjecture
>
> often leads
>                     to fresh perception, but it may not
> always be useful                       the horse/water tale
>
> could apply      my guess      that she's pristine,
> like porcelain          and your problem is the pronoun-
>
> which makes you       tense.  In            the primordial heat
> and mess of last week-language        was grunts,
>
> gestures used to convey desire:  hunger, lust,
> extreme unction   /    and we continue         to dwell
>
> in inhospitable zones     /     so very hot in here,
> the lady janitor wears a glass slipper and confounds
>
> even the most princely of     expectations     you want
> a last page, a period /
>                                 the wind is your nemesis
>
>
>
>
> ***
> "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
> which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would
be
> better left alone."
> Kenneth Koch
>
> ***
> ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its
in
> us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
> Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <trbell at home.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 11:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
>
>
> > Unless I disremember most working class poetry tends to be traditional
and
> > content-focused.  I wonder if this is a product of writing down or of
> trying
> > to communicate with them (or us)?
> >
> > I'd be interested in any counter examples, i.e., experimental working
> > poetry.
> >
> > tom bell
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From grahamd  Tue Feb 19 00:02:31 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:02:31 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <200202190500.g1J50VL47016@mx15.mx.voyager.net>

Thinking of Stevens's fabled dislocation between day job and poetry--has
anyone mentioned William Carlos Williams in this thread? 

Seems to me that WCW is a poet whose paying occupation was integral with his
poetry, and perhaps even his poetics.   Don't know what, if anything, this
might mean, for I'm not sure I could develop the point very convincingly. 
Just an intuition.  When I read David Ignatow, too ( a great disciple of
WCW) I certainly *feel* that his entire sensibility was formed by his long
years of working crummy jobs that he disliked, and that this is not
irrelevant to the nature of his writing.  

On an somewhat related note, I'm also struck by the infrequency with which
many academic poets seem to be moved to write about teaching, the classroom,
campus life, etc.  Yet as has been noted, it's a demanding job--demanding 
considerable creativity, endurance, passion; not to mention regularly
displaying healthy doses of absurdity, joy, self-doubt, paranoia,
etc.--things one might suppose would spark poetry.

Maybe for many of us the poetry is an escape from our relentless paying
jobs, and writing about it would just feel claustrophobic?  I certainly
don't think academic life is intrinsically less interesting than office
work, the law, carpentry, or whatever.  But a great many teaching poets
avoid writing about it, don't they?  

There are exceptions, of course, and in fact an entire recent anthology
devoted to such:  *In Praise of Pedagogy*, edited by Wendy Bishop and David
Starkey.  

David Graham


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================



From Cadaly  Tue Feb 19 00:09:11 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 00:09:11 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <53.128ae52e.29a337f7@aol.com>

lots of academic novels....

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From gudding  Tue Feb 19 00:13:18 2002
From: gudding (Gudding)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 23:13:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <B8969EA8.2701%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <sc70dcec.013@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020218230033.02df1330@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>

>Then Paul said,
>My worse job, as far as being a poet goes, was my two year stint teaching in
>a ghetto junior high in Baltimore.  After work, I'd be so exhausted I'd take
>two and three hour naps.  I must have written some of the poems that got me
>a grad fellowship at the time, but I'll be damned if I can remember writing
>anything those two years.

My worst job was actually my best job: working as a deckhand on an 
intercoastal freighter in the Bering Sea and Gulf of Alaska for ten months. 
Later I became a bosun. I sailed on that boat with 8 men, each of whom was 
very well read but, well, tattered around the "fucking" edges, if you know 
what i mean. We were out for 30 days at a time, me and 8 sociopaths. When I 
first signed on, I was a vegetarian and a practicing Theravadan Buddhist. I 
would sit vipassana meditation 2 hours each day, once before working my 12 
hour shift and once before bed. By the 4th month, I ate meat, got in 
fistfights, smoked cigarettes, and swore. Before that I'd been a deckhand 
on tugboats. Tugboat sailors are civilized people. But I noticed something 
interesting: sailors on tugboats read pulpy things (detective novels etc); 
sailors on freighters read Poe, Kazantzakis, Emerson, John Demos, etc, 
played the bagpipes and had a fondness for firearms. I once watched Lt. 
Petey Ansell pump 30 slugs into the three foot long penis (flaccid) of a 
supine dead teenage humpback whale floating on the surface halfway between 
Seattle and Chignik Alaska. The captain stopped the boat (upwind) and Petey 
emptied a few clips into his dick. Then we sailed on.

I will never forget those days.

Gabriel Gudding




From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Feb 19 01:04:36 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:04:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
Message-ID: <20020219060436.3C0CC2757@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From trbell  Tue Feb 19 05:10:22 2002
From: trbell (trbell at home.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 04:10:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
References: <200202190500.g1J50VL47016@mx15.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <00ec01c1b92d$a7c8b4e0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

apropos WCW, being a doctor myself I tend to see his poetry coming from his
work, but I could be wrong?


is something I wrote in re this (animated version at
http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/butdr/wagesan.gif

tom bell

poetry
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From snospx  Tue Feb 19 01:51:16 2002
From: snospx (Barry Spacks)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 22:51:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Teaching Work
In-Reply-To: <200202190617.g1J6H4Z06077@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020218225116.0080d3e0@snowcrest.net>

At 01:17 AM 2/19/02 -0500, David Graham wrote:
>
>On an somewhat related note, I'm also struck by the infrequency with which
>many academic poets seem to be moved to write about teaching, the classroom,
>campus life, etc. 

I've done a few -- here's a short one:

(B. Spacks)
***************

THEMES ON LOVE

Grading themes on love at M.I.T,
one-man Symposium at 3
A.M., across the court I saw a light:
another office-holder working late.
While Plato on a silver pillow rode
above the waves of pre-sophisitc prose
I jotted teacher's notions that were not
as brave as our two lamps against the glut
of dawn. But when I clicked mine off
his too as once was gone: had been
my echo in a distant sheen
of glass: had been my own, and I
was lonely then, and wrote
these English words.




From Arielpf123  Tue Feb 19 07:52:28 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:52:28 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <124.c143195.29a3a48c@aol.com>

here's one of mine  written mostly for fun and out of total frustration when 
i was working at a "Behavioral Health" clinic:

pat fargnoli

Rip-Roaring Hannah Attends the Staff Meeting 


Tensile beside me at the conference table,
her leather-sheathed body slides 
to the chair-edge, black boots tap the tile, 
her eyes have that struck-match look
she gets when she?s about 
to get us in hot water, 
and the boss is saying: 
add hours; work harder for less--   
he?s saying: do this and that,
he?s been droning on for a half-hour.
And later she tells me
it was the volcano
that started in her toes, and rushed up 
the hot core of her panther-sleek torso.  
What I saw was her lips opening,
the words shooting out --
an unstoppable lava river.
The room went bright with danger.  
She was up then and pacing, 
flinging her arms around, and no word 
he begins to say, makes it far
because she lays him out flat--that stupid,
whinny, no-ass wimp, tweeping chicken.
She calls him slimy salamander, skink,
sniveling mole, worm snake, 
narrow-mouthed toad. God, 
she blasts through the leaden
air--a tower of power, heavy metal,
and everyone is frozen to their seats.
I?d muscle her down but she?s 
the grenade in my pocket, 
my marvelous shithead, glamourous inferno,
my red-headed Rambo, my rage entire.
Hell--she scares me but without her,
I am a mealy-mouthed moth, a slug, 
the corpse of a cow on a carving table. 



From Robtberner  Tue Feb 19 09:03:05 2002
From: Robtberner (Robtberner at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:03:05 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <121.c3ec7c5.29a3b519@aol.com>

   Rip-Roaring Hannah is certainly more interesting than the speaker of the 
poem.

                   Robert Berner



From Robtberner  Tue Feb 19 09:09:14 2002
From: Robtberner (Robtberner at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:09:14 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: stone masonry
Message-ID: <37.230a1591.29a3b68a@aol.com>

   dear tad,

     can i take the course by correspondence?
     are you guys coming down this weekend?
     thanks of the lead to new-poetry--i had about 80 thousand e-mails from 
them this morning, most of them not very interesting.  most of the aesthetic 
discussions/arguments don't do much for me--they're mostly new combatants in 
a very old arena, dulled weapons and duller tactics. i do like the idea of an 
anthology of working-class stuff, as long as it's not predominantly about 
teaching.
     love and la bamba,

                bob



From Arielpf123  Tue Feb 19 09:16:43 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:16:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: stone masonry
Message-ID: <130.99efaa0.29a3b84b@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/19/02 9:10:20 AM, Robtberner at aol.com writes:

<< dear tad,

     can i take the course by correspondence?
     are you guys coming down this weekend?
     thanks of the lead to new-poetry--i had about 80 thousand e-mails from 
them this morning, most of them not very interesting.  most of the aesthetic 
discussions/arguments don't do much for me--they're mostly new combatants in 
a very old arena, dulled weapons and duller tactics. i do like the idea of an 
anthology of working-class stuff, as long as it's not predominantly about 
teaching.
     love and la bamba, >>

LOL Bob.... I think you screwed up!!!!  (and thanks for the comment on 
Hannah!)

pat



From Robtberner  Tue Feb 19 09:31:36 2002
From: Robtberner (Robtberner at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:31:36 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: screw-ups
Message-ID: <12f.cb0394a.29a3bbc8@aol.com>

   amen, and sorry about that. i meant to send the longer message to tad 
richards only, and the comment on hannah to the new-poetry site. what the 
hell, i'm an old luddite stumbling his way along the Via Computera, so stuff 
will happen. i swear to be more careful in future. 
   regards,

      bob



From Arielpf123  Tue Feb 19 09:14:55 2002
From: Arielpf123 (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:14:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <141.9c5a620.29a3b7df@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/19/02 9:04:37 AM, Robtberner at aol.com writes:

<< Rip-Roaring Hannah is certainly more interesting than the speaker of the 
poem.

                   Robert Berner >>

HA!!!  She IS the speaker of the poem...both are.

pat



From Jholmes  Tue Feb 19 11:56:25 2002
From: Jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 09:56:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] working poetry
Message-ID: <sc722167.078@athena.boisestate.edu>

Dear Tom Bell--

Either that's a cuss word on par with Joyce's creation, or my
mailreader isn't reading your poem just right.

Here's a rather mainstream workpoem by Linda Dyer that in fact does
refer to the reason a poet might hold an office job: 

On the Use of Office Products as Beauty Aids

    "I have known the inexorable sadness of pencils,
     Neat in their boxes, dolor of pad and paper-weight..."
               --Theodore Roethke


Free use of office supplies
could be called a benefit
of my profession; I'm never
without remedies. Paper clip
holds a teased hairdo,
package tape around my waist 
gives me form; ledger green 
correction fluid makes a fine
eyeshadow: smart
as well as practical.
Say it's true the unkind 
words of others actually cling
to our skin until we bathe;
I use file-folders under
my blouse as a deflector-vest.
_This is the life I live
so that out of it
I can create another._
With an arsenal of mechanical
pencils and hand-held dictaphone
I go into the night
and walk with the moon
down urination alley
to the employee parking lot,
skirt held with a binder clip
where a button failed.

But the policeman assumes something
disloyal about the three-hole punch
and postage meter under my arm
and invites me to the station,
where he takes my fingerprints,
one of which looks unusual to him
with its series of dots, until
he recognizes I'm wearing
one of those rubber fingers
a secretary uses to page through
deposition volumes looking for
some defendant's name,
the very name which paused
the stenographer's fingers
over a shorthand machine--
think of the testimony lost
while she spelled it 
letter by letter.

The cop questions me: how long
have I been at my job, do I
get retirement, why a not-bad-looking
woman would stay so late
on a weekend without extra
pay? I tell him about the scientist
who suggested that our moon
influenced the tides--how he
was considered not only foolish,
but a dangerous occultist
by his scientific peers;
yes, the very moon walked upon by men,
the one consulted by lovers to predict
good fortune or impermanence,
the one which will follow me home.

--Linda Dyer, from "Fictional Teeth"



From JforJames  Tue Feb 19 11:56:16 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 11:56:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] exedra; working with one's hands
Message-ID: <198.283022b.29a3ddb0@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/18/02 10:43:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
gmcvay at patriot.net writes:
> 
>  I'd love a pointer to more info about that stonemasonry class, and what
>  "dry-key" means, and all that good stuff.
>
Ever since I saw an exhibit of Alma-Tadema's paintings I've been in love
not with his beautiful tho stylized women, but with a semicircular stone 
bench called an exedra. In Greco-Roman times, these were constructed 
outdoors so that a few people could gather 'round to hear a poem 
sung or recited or to hear a lyre player. So civilized and pleasing a 
piece of small public architecture...see an exedra here:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/2148750/13776695zWSmtPZjWl
or see a two-tiered exedra in "Sappho & Alcaeus":
http://216.247.69.107/sappho.html
Gwyn, If you a need a project to finish your apprenticeship, you can come 
and build one of these in my backyard.

Early in life the philosopher Karl Popper completed his apprenticeship
as a cabinetmaker by building a glass-fronted, hanging cupboard 
(which he filled with books); he's said to have stated that he learned 
more about the theory of knowledge from his apprentice-master than 
from any of his other teachers.
Finnegan
  



From daisyf1  Tue Feb 19 12:38:32 2002
From: daisyf1 (Daisy Fried)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:38:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] teacher poems
Message-ID: <20020219.123832.-173851.4.daisyf1@juno.com>

> >On an somewhat related note, I'm also struck by the infrequency 
> with which
> >many academic poets seem to be moved to write about teaching, the 
> classroom,
> >campus life, etc. 

And I'm struck by the fact that when they do, they very frequently seem
to write out of condescension towards their students. Which always
somehow reads (between the lines) as envy...which they don't seem to be
aware of! 

But not yours, B. Spacks. Thanks for posting that.

Daisy Fried
 




From j-mccann1  Tue Feb 19 13:54:53 2002
From: j-mccann1 (Janet McCann)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 12:54:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [New-Poetry]
In-Reply-To: <023601c09a8b$86b03380$6501a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
References: <3c.7a213d7.27c29631@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20020219125453.00942a10@neo.tamu.edu>

Is this list still in operation?  If so, am I still on it?  Thanks





From JforJames  Tue Feb 19 13:47:41 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:47:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] David Whyte: Poetry Consultant to Business
Message-ID: <177.3d8cc51.29a3f7cd@aol.com>

http://www.davidwhyte.com/tpl/about.tpl
Work is a very serious matter indeed. We freight our work with meaning and 
identity, and fight hard and long for some kind of purpose in our endeavors. 
Organizations need to understand the wellsprings of human creativity in order 
to shape conversations that are invitational to an individual's greater 
powers. Good poetry can provide explosive insight, grant needed courage and 
stir the dormant imagination of individuals and organizations alike.



From JforJames  Tue Feb 19 13:54:17 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 13:54:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?UTF-8?Q?2002=20Poetry=20Publication=20Showcase=E2=80=B9=20SEND?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?=20BOOKS=20NOW?=
Message-ID: <b6.6d33687.29a3f959@aol.com>

Date:   2/19/02 1:50:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   betsy at poetshouse.org (Poets House)
To: jforjames at aol.com (Jforjames)

2002 Poetry Publication Showcase? SEND BOOKS NOW

Dear Publisher,

Poets House, a 40,000-volume poetry archive and literary center located in
New York City, will open its annual Poetry Publication Showcase on April 6,
2002.  The Showcase is an exhibit of all of the year's new poetry books and
a festival of events presented during National Poetry Month.  Last year's
Showcase included more than 1,300 books of poetry, representing the work of
more than 500 publishers: commercial, university, independent, and
micro-presses.  Inclusion in the Showcase ensures that your books are seen
in an exhibit which has become the reference point for all who are
interested in poetry. 

Now, our newly expanded library provides year-round exhibition space for
the Showcase as well as other treasures from the Poets House collection. 
This year, as usual, the Showcase will open with a celebration of the
exhibit and continue throughout the month with a festival of events, among
them a panel discussion examining the conditions for literary publishing in
this new economy.  After April, books from the exhibit will remain on
display throughout the year. Inclusion in this exhibition is absolutely
FREE.  

You are invited to participate in the Showcase by sending us review copies
of all your new books for exhibit. Even though the February 14 deadline has
passed, you can still participate by sending your books in immediately.
March 8 is the final deadline for your books to be listed in the catalogue.

What does inclusion in the Showcase do for you?
?Organized by publisher so that the work of your press can be seen as a
whole,  it provides a unique forum for literary branding.
?It makes your books available to the acquisitions and prize committees who
come to Poets House to review all of the new books for the year. 
?It means your books will be listed in the Directory of American Poetry
Books online, which provides bibliographic detail for all of the books
displayed.  
?It secures your books a place in the national archive we are building here
at Poets House.
?And it provides year-round exposure to readers and writers of poetry.

Which books qualify for inclusion?
All books of poetry (full-length collections, anthologies and chapbooks),
poetry-related prose, poetry audio and videotapes, CD's, and computer media
published since January of 2001 qualify for exhibit, excluding vanity press
publications. All international books and selected Children's titles will
be exhibited during the Showcase. Books published prior to 2001 are welcome
additions to the library and will be added to the Directory. 

To be sure your new books are included:
Publishers may submit forms, read guidelines and see the Directory of
American Poetry Books online at www.poetshouse.org/showcase.htm. Complete
one copy of the form for each new book published since the beginning of
2001. Send the completed forms with two copies of each book to Poets House,
72 Spring Street, 2nd Floor, New York, NY 10012. The final deadline for
inclusion in the catalogue is March 8, 2002.

If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact me at
212-431-7920 x19 or at betsy at poetshouse.org.

Sincerely,
Betsy Fagin
Showcase Coordinator



From trbell  Tue Feb 19 02:58:55 2002
From: trbell (trbell at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 01:58:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
References: <d3.6c435be.29a2fb94@aol.com>
 <001f01c1b913$68799440$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>
 <017201c1b8f7$ce85e980$45aeefd8@0021936706>
Message-ID: <005001c1b91b$47d547e0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

nice, Tony.  my post was more of a gibeto generate some discussion even
though it does seem true as a generalization.

tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Robinson" <antrobin at clipper.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry


> Hmm.
>
> Here's my stab at "experimental working class poetry"---this poem appears
in
> the last issue of Exquisite Corpse, as well.
>
> Tony
> _______________
> Signage
>
> "This bathroom is being clean by a lady janitor"
> What this mean (s)      anyone's guess     conjecture
>
> often leads
>                     to fresh perception, but it may not
> always be useful                       the horse/water tale
>
> could apply      my guess      that she's pristine,
> like porcelain          and your problem is the pronoun-
>
> which makes you       tense.  In            the primordial heat
> and mess of last week-language        was grunts,
>
> gestures used to convey desire:  hunger, lust,
> extreme unction   /    and we continue         to dwell
>
> in inhospitable zones     /     so very hot in here,
> the lady janitor wears a glass slipper and confounds
>
> even the most princely of     expectations     you want
> a last page, a period /
>                                 the wind is your nemesis
>
>
>
>
> ***
> "The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
> which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would
be
> better left alone."
> Kenneth Koch
>
> ***
> ...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its
in
> us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
> Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <trbell at home.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 11:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: working (class) poetry
>
>
> > Unless I disremember most working class poetry tends to be traditional
and
> > content-focused.  I wonder if this is a product of writing down or of
> trying
> > to communicate with them (or us)?
> >
> > I'd be interested in any counter examples, i.e., experimental working
> > poetry.
> >
> > tom bell
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From trbell  Tue Feb 19 17:45:14 2002
From: trbell (trbell at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:45:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] working poetry
References: <sc722167.078@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <010101c1b997$19446ec0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

probably the mailreader is a problem.  Try the url for the animated version?

tom

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Janet Holmes" <Jholmes at boisestate.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 10:56 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] working poetry


> Dear Tom Bell--
> 
> Either that's a cuss word on par with Joyce's creation, or my
> mailreader isn't reading your poem just right.
> 
> Here's a rather mainstream workpoem by Linda Dyer that in fact does
> refer to the reason a poet might hold an office job: 
> 
> On the Use of Office Products as Beauty Aids
> 
>     "I have known the inexorable sadness of pencils,
>      Neat in their boxes, dolor of pad and paper-weight..."
>                --Theodore Roethke
> 
> 
> Free use of office supplies
> could be called a benefit
> of my profession; I'm never
> without remedies. Paper clip
> holds a teased hairdo,
> package tape around my waist 
> gives me form; ledger green 
> correction fluid makes a fine
> eyeshadow: smart
> as well as practical.
> Say it's true the unkind 
> words of others actually cling
> to our skin until we bathe;
> I use file-folders under
> my blouse as a deflector-vest.
> _This is the life I live
> so that out of it
> I can create another._
> With an arsenal of mechanical
> pencils and hand-held dictaphone
> I go into the night
> and walk with the moon
> down urination alley
> to the employee parking lot,
> skirt held with a binder clip
> where a button failed.
> 
> But the policeman assumes something
> disloyal about the three-hole punch
> and postage meter under my arm
> and invites me to the station,
> where he takes my fingerprints,
> one of which looks unusual to him
> with its series of dots, until
> he recognizes I'm wearing
> one of those rubber fingers
> a secretary uses to page through
> deposition volumes looking for
> some defendant's name,
> the very name which paused
> the stenographer's fingers
> over a shorthand machine--
> think of the testimony lost
> while she spelled it 
> letter by letter.
> 
> The cop questions me: how long
> have I been at my job, do I
> get retirement, why a not-bad-looking
> woman would stay so late
> on a weekend without extra
> pay? I tell him about the scientist
> who suggested that our moon
> influenced the tides--how he
> was considered not only foolish,
> but a dangerous occultist
> by his scientific peers;
> yes, the very moon walked upon by men,
> the one consulted by lovers to predict
> good fortune or impermanence,
> the one which will follow me home.
> 
> --Linda Dyer, from "Fictional Teeth"
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Tue Feb 19 18:03:54 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:03:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] teacher poems
Message-ID: <3b.2245402a.29a433da@aol.com>

I stumble on this Canadian Poetry site when looking for theWayman
poem...why don't we know more of the poets from the Great North?
http://www.library.utoronto.ca/canpoetry/index.html

This one by Tom Wayman is amusing...

DID I MISS ANYTHING?

    Question frequently asked by
    students after missing a class

Nothing. When we realized you weren't here
we sat with our hands folded on our desks
in silence, for the full two hours

Everything. I gave an exam worth
40 per cent of the grade for this term
and assigned some reading due today
on which I'm about to hand out a quiz
worth 50 per cent

Nothing. None of the content of this course
has value or meaning
Take as many days off as you like:
any activities we undertake as a class
I assure you will not matter either to you or me
and are without purpose

Everything. A few minutes after we began last time
a shaft of light descended and an angel
or other heavenly being appeared
and revealed to us what each woman or man must do
to attain divine wisdom in this life and
the hereafter
This is the last time the class will meet
before we disperse to bring this good news to all people
on earth

Nothing. When you are not present
how could something significant occur?

Everything. Contained in this classroom
is a microcosm of human existence
assembled for you to query and examine and ponder
This is not the only place such an opportunity has been
gathered

but it was one place

And you weren't here




From tadrichards  Tue Feb 19 18:30:54 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:30:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: stone masonry
References: <37.230a1591.29a3b68a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <001101c1b9a0$5eb4d5e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Looks like just me coming...Pat has to work. What's the schedule again?



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: <Robtberner at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 9:09 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: stone masonry


>    dear tad,
>
>      can i take the course by correspondence?
>      are you guys coming down this weekend?
>      thanks of the lead to new-poetry--i had about 80 thousand e-mails
from
> them this morning, most of them not very interesting.  most of the
aesthetic
> discussions/arguments don't do much for me--they're mostly new combatants
in
> a very old arena, dulled weapons and duller tactics. i do like the idea of
an
> anthology of working-class stuff, as long as it's not predominantly about
> teaching.
>      love and la bamba,
>
>                 bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From tadrichards  Tue Feb 19 18:54:44 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 18:54:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: screw-ups
References: <12f.cb0394a.29a3bbc8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002001c1b9a0$cebd4160$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

That's OK...it gets worse. I, who should know better, didn't notice Bob had
sent his message to the whole list, and just blithely answered it. It's a
good thing I didn't say anything like "this list is OK except for old
blatherskites like David Graham and Sam Gwynn."



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: <Robtberner at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 9:31 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: screw-ups


>    amen, and sorry about that. i meant to send the longer message to tad
> richards only, and the comment on hannah to the new-poetry site. what the
> hell, i'm an old luddite stumbling his way along the Via Computera, so
stuff
> will happen. i swear to be more careful in future.
>    regards,
>
>       bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Tue Feb 19 20:09:43 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 20:09:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket Lives
Message-ID: <53.12970a23.29a45157@aol.com>

Date:         Tue, 19 Feb 2002 16:21:03 +1100
Reply-To:     John Tranter <jtranter at JACKET.ZIP.COM.AU>
Sender:       british & irish poets <BRITISH-POETS at JISCMAIL.AC.UK>
From:         John Tranter <jtranter at JACKET.ZIP.COM.AU>
Subject:      "Jacket 16: still going strong!"
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed

Dear friends:
There has been a little misunderstanding about Jacket magazine on the talk 
circuits of the Net, which is entirely my fault. Announcing Jacket 16 
recently, I said:
_______________________

Announcing (well, pre-announcing) Jacket 16,
due to close in March 2002  --

...another Special Giant Bumper Issue, again, already:

        http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket16/index.html
_______________________

When I said "due to close in March 2002", I didn't mean that Jacket was 
going to close -- heaven forbid! I meant that number 16 was going to close 
-- that is, I would stop uploading new material to it in mid-March 2002 -- 
and I would get to work on number 17. And so on.

In fact I have been uploading bits and pieces to all the Jacket  issues up 
to number 20, due to close -- whoops, I mean due to be *published* -- in 
December 2002. You can reach them all from the links at the top of the 
Jacket homepage, and at the top of every Jacket issue's Contents page.

I have no plans to close Jacket.
And I promise to think more clearly in future!!

In the meantime, Jacket 16 has been growing bit by bit:
_______________________

Angel Hair magazine: The Sixties and Seventies
A sampler of writing selected by Jacket editor John Tranter from the 
630-page Granary Books anthology of material from the collection of Angel 
Hair magazine and books edited by Lewis Warsh and Anne Waldman between 1966 
and 1978. Another thirty pages of poetry and prose will be made available 
as permissions come in. So far we have:

Introduction ? Anne Waldman
Introduction ? Lewis Warsh
John Ashbery, The Hod Carrier
Bill Berkson, Sheer Strips
Ted Berrigan, from To Clear the Range
Ted Berrigan, Two prose poems
Ted Berrigan, For You
Edwin Denby, ?Out of Bronx subway...?
Dick Gallup, Guard Duty
Lee Harwood, The Seaside
Tony Towle, Poem (?The lead drains...?)
_______________________

Feature: Joe Brainard, 1942?1994
        From Pressed Wafer:
Bill Corbett, Introduction
Anselm Berrigan, ?I remember hearing Joe read?
Lee Ann Brown, ?Joe Over Easy?
Tom Carey, ?Joe B.?
Maxine Chernoff, ?Sonnet: Some Things I Miss About Joe?
Tom Clark, ?My Joe Brainards?
Elaine Equi, ?A Freshly Painted Poem?
Paul Hoover, ?Winter (Mirror)?
Nathan Kernan, ?Premonition?
Wayne Koestenbaum, ?Two Little Elegies for Joe Brainard?
David Lehman, ?For Joe Brainard?
Ange Mlinko, ?Boston Flower Market?
Eileen Myles, ?Worst Seat in the House?
Charles North, ?Romantic Note 1?
Jerome Sala, ?I?m Glad I Don?t Understand the Writing of Joe Brainard?
David Trinidad, ?9 Cigarettes?
        Other material:
Bill Berkson: Working with Joe
Kristin Prevallet interviews Kenward Elmslie
Kristin Prevallet Joe Brainard & Poetry
_______________________

Overland magazine feature -- Guest Editor: Pam Brown    

        Prose:
Pam Brown: Introduction
Ken Bolton reviews New and Selected Poems, by Tony Towle
Murray Edmond: No Paragraphs (Meditations on Noh, Poetry, Theatre and the 
Avant-garde)

        Poems:
Maxine Chernoff
Gillian Conoley
Lidija Cvetkovic
Mary di Michele
Linh Dinh
Laurie Duggan
Michael Farrell
Denis Gallagher
Jane Gibian
Noelle Kocot
Bronwyn Lea
Michele Leggott
Kate Lilley
Rachel Loden
Geraldine McKenzie
Eileen Myles
Ted Nielsen
Alice Notley
Brendan Ryan
Ron Silliman
Sam Wagan Watson
_______________________

Feature: New Zealand
-- Smoking Jacket ? Philip Mead reviews the Big Smoke anthology, and books 
by Michele Leggott and David Howard
-- Terence Diggory: The Red Wheelbarrow Goes Global ? The Value of the 
Local in William Carlos Williams and Postmodern Art  (featuring the art of 
German Wolfgang Kaiser and the video art of New Zealander Bridget Sutherland)
-- Peter Robinson reviews Bill Manhire

        Poems:
-- Alan Brunton: In the Wilderness of Being
-- Janet Charman: Two Poems
-- Murray Edmond: Three Ballads
-- Michele Leggott: milk and honey taken far far away (i)
-- Pooja Mittal: Three poems
-- Ian Wedde: Epistle: to John Dickson
-- Yang Lian: Two poems
-- Mark Young: 3 Poems
_______________________

Ed Dorn: Epilogue ? The Last Range -- Excerpt from Tom Clark?s biography of 
Ed Dorn
_______________________

Interviews

Kent Johnson interviews Eliot Weinberger
Toh Hsien Min interviews Bob Perelman
John Tranter interviews Chris Emery, of Salt Publications
Nina Zivancevic in Paris interviews Jerome Rothenberg
_______________________

Memoir: George Evans: A Working Boy?s Whitman: ?...one must question how it 
could be that a man who lived with his eyes and heart wide open, could have 
so little to say about certain matters that truly contradicted his notions 
of liberty and freedom.?
_______________________

Sister Sites: Ram Devineni interviews Ravi Shankar, editor of Drunken Boat
_______________________

Michael Hrebeniak: ? In Memoriam Fielding Dawson, 1930?2002
_______________________

Reviews:
-- Aaron Belz reviews I Used to Be Ashamed of My Striped Face, by Mike Topp
-- Aaron Belz reviews Understanding Objects, by Vincent Katz
-- Tom Hibbard reviews Strange Things Begin to Happen When a Meteor Crashes 
into the Arizona Desert, by Michael Basinski
-- Kevin Gallagher reviews All Prose, by William Corbett
-- Tom Hibbard reviews HEKA, by Michael Basinski
-- Mark Neely reviews Mary Jo Bang and Ange Mlinko
-- Philip Nikolayev reviews Michael Palmer and Brian Henry
-- Larry Sawyer reviews Poems From the Akashic Record by Ira Cohen
-- Larry Sawyer reviews Goofbook: for Jack Kerouac by Philip Whalen
-- Mark Scroggins reviews The Shrubberies by Ronald Johnson
_______________________

Poems: Miekal And / Johannes Beilharz  /  Maria Damon / Sharon Dolin / 
Chris Emery / Edwin Honig / Rebecca Lu Kiernan  / Pura L?pez-Colom? / Jeni 
Olin / Peter Porter / Spencer Selby / Andrzej Sosnowski
_______________________

There's more to come, too, including a special feature on Tom Raworth, and 
other bits and pieces.

... thanks for your support. Enjoy!

                                John Tranter

 



From grahamd  Tue Feb 19 20:19:07 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:19:07 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: screw-ups
Message-ID: <200202200118.g1K1IqM34964@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

Who you calling *old*, you geezer?!  

David Graham
Certified Public Blatherskite and Registered Gaffer

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: "theoldmole" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: screw-ups
>Date: Tue, Feb 19, 2002, 5:54 PM
>

>That's OK...it gets worse. I, who should know better, didn't notice Bob had
>sent his message to the whole list, and just blithely answered it. It's a
>good thing I didn't say anything like "this list is OK except for old
>blatherskites like David Graham and Sam Gwynn."
>
>



From Cadaly  Tue Feb 19 22:09:48 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:09:48 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] working poetry
Message-ID: <12.1aacebd3.29a46d7c@aol.com>

the journal tripwire had a working issue in which I had a "word processing" 
piece; one of the editors used to work with migrant fruit harvesters during 
the summers -- she's got a long poem called "The Cherry Pickers" (great 
title, I think)

Rgds,
Catherine
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From rwilsnac  Wed Feb 20 02:12:41 2002
From: rwilsnac (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:12:41 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20020219230156.00da5538@medicine.nodak.edu>

As I plod along a week behind my e-mail, in between writing
multiple choice questions, I'm glad the poetry-work thread
has lasted long enough to insert my favorite (and atypical)
Gary Snyder poem (maybe as a coda):


The Wipers' Secret

Down in the bilges
or up out of sight on the bulkheads
time after time
year after year
we paint right over the dirt.

The first engineer
he knows,
but what can he say ?
the company says
save time.

		from The Back Country



From gmcvay  Wed Feb 20 00:21:17 2002
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:21:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tangent: Gary Snyder
References: <3.0.32.20020219230156.00da5538@medicine.nodak.edu>
Message-ID: <3C73324A.267EAD20@patriot.net>

Can anyone help me track down the Snyder poem that includes snatches of
the 1611 English ballad "The Three Ravens"? I can't find it in
_Mountains and Rivers_.

Thanks--Gwyn



From gudding  Wed Feb 20 00:28:14 2002
From: gudding (Gudding)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:28:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Qualifications
In-Reply-To: <20020219060436.3C0CC2757@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020219232341.0296ae60@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>

In fact it was in the engine room of that ship, the Coastal Nomad, that I 
first read _Moby Dick_. I will never forget that experience, immersed in MD 
at the second of a four-story tall engine room on the night shift (midnight 
to six) reading with industrial noise suppressor pinching my head and every 
15 minutes getting up to check the 54 gauges on the ginormous flaking 
turbo-diesel. Those were manly days.

Gabe Gudding


At 10:04 PM 2/18/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Hey Gabe,
>
>Could this be the story of "Moldy Dick"?  ;-)
>
>--- Gudding <gudding at olemiss.edu> wrote:
> >
>  I once watched Lt.
> >Petey Ansell pump 30 slugs into the three foot long penis (flaccid) of a
> >supine dead teenage humpback whale floating on the surface halfway between
> >Seattle and Chignik Alaska. The captain stopped the boat (upwind) and Petey
> >emptied a few clips into his dick. Then we sailed on.
> >
> >I will never forget those days.
> >
> >Gabriel Gudding
>
>Poetry Catamaran
>
>"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the 'known 
>mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
>Robert R. Cobb
>AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
>http://rrcobb.tripod.com
> >
> >>__
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From odysseus34  Wed Feb 20 00:10:10 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:10:10 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
References: <sc70fe59.048@athena.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <3C732F9E.29BCE59F@earthlink.net>


Janet Holmes wrote:

The trade-off is worth

> it for a lot of us (as I said, the work you stay up at night writing is,
> if minimally, rewarded in academe), but the idea that it requires no
> sacrifice is uninformed.

Once again:  who said it required "no" sacrifice?  I didn't.  I'm not aware
of anyone else who did.  So who are you responding to, other than a
strawman?

Also, other people's advice/experience apparently doesn't work at all for
you (or so you keep insisting).  Is it so hard to believe that other people
might like to trade anecdotes about what it's like to try to balance work
and poetry, or do we all have to conform to what you think is useful?

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From odysseus34  Wed Feb 20 00:32:12 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 22:32:12 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
References: <200202190500.g1J50VL47016@mx15.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3C7334C6.D0643B03@earthlink.net>


David Graham wrote:

> Thinking of Stevens's fabled dislocation between day job and poetry--has
> anyone mentioned William Carlos Williams in this thread?
>
> Seems to me that WCW is a poet whose paying occupation was integral with his
> poetry, and perhaps even his poetics.   Don't know what, if anything, this
> might mean, for I'm not sure I could develop the point very convincingly.
> Just an intuition.

I'm reminded of Natalie Goldberg's characterizing some of WCW's poems as
"prescription-pad-sized poems" in "Writing Down the Bones" (this was a
compliment on her part).  She visualizes WCW as writing poetry in between
patients in his office.  I don't know how true to life that is, though.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From grahamd  Wed Feb 20 01:42:35 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 00:42:35 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Teaching Work
Message-ID: <200202200642.g1K6gJv21164@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

I like Barry's poem, too.  

I haven't written a ton of teaching poems, but as the years go by I seem to
commit more and more.  I agree with Daisy that the teacher's lounge poem,
raw complaining about the students, is hard to pull off--but I've read some
good ones.  

Anyway, hope this one of mine doesn't seem too condescending.

A MIND OF WINTER


I recognize the pose:  casual cool,
one arm spread along the top slat
of the bench, legs wide in disdain,
a gaze aiming at unreadable.
For two days he's sprawled at ease
near the student union, making it clear
he's not moving come class or final.
The season's second snowfall
glazes his face and limbs.
The fact that he's sculpted in snow
explains much of his immobility
but not all.  For he's so much the ghost
of the unlistener, that back-row child
who passes through wisdom
as through the weather, elemental
and unaltered, that I know
I've seen him sprawled over half
my life.  Not to mention that
I've been that boy, chilling myself
from inside out with the ice
of unknowing.  So I cannot pass
without a kind thought tossed
like a whiff of cool wind
in his direction.  His eyeless gaze
cannot blink away new snow
building, nor can my squint
focus his form.  By tomorrow
both our heads will have been
knocked off and reasserted
more times than we can tell.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
>From: Barry Spacks <snospx at silcom.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Teaching Work
>Date: Tue, Feb 19, 2002, 12:51 AM
>

>At 01:17 AM 2/19/02 -0500, David Graham wrote:
>>
>>On an somewhat related note, I'm also struck by the infrequency with which
>>many academic poets seem to be moved to write about teaching, the classroom,
>>campus life, etc. 
>
>I've done a few -- here's a short one:
>
>(B. Spacks)
>***************
>
>THEMES ON LOVE
>
>Grading themes on love at M.I.T,
>one-man Symposium at 3
>A.M., across the court I saw a light:
>another office-holder working late.
>While Plato on a silver pillow rode
>above the waves of pre-sophisitc prose
>I jotted teacher's notions that were not
>as brave as our two lamps against the glut
>of dawn. But when I clicked mine off
>his too as once was gone: had been
>my echo in a distant sheen
>of glass: had been my own, and I
>was lonely then, and wrote
>these English words.
>



From odysseus34  Wed Feb 20 01:12:30 2002
From: odysseus34 (odysseus34)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 23:12:30 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tiny Insane Voluptuousness
References: <200202172121.g1HLLBR61100@mx4.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3C733E34.B485A33C@earthlink.net>


David Graham wrote:

> that tiny insane voluptuousness,
> Getting this done, finally finishing that.
> --Theodor Storm, trans. R. Bly

Ooh, that's nice.  Except it has the effect on me of "that tiny insane
meaningless voluptuousness," since I realize five seconds after finishing an
office task just how pointless it usually is.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA




From mbales  Wed Feb 20 06:25:11 2002
From: mbales (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 06:25:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art Chronicles
In-Reply-To: <200202161639.g1GGd6q34239@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3C734147.31306.7C3802B@localhost>

David Graham:
> I enjoy Ashbery's art criticism.  Don't suppose it should have 
surprised
> me, but it sort of did:  he's a completely straightforward, lucid
> journalist. No "poetic" flights in his art crit that I've seen.  
 
I'm sure that for poetic flights
You're the man to know 'em --
But journalism's what he writes
In every Ashbery poem.



Marcus Bales
http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely



From dbarone  Wed Feb 20 08:35:27 2002
From: dbarone (dbarone)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:35:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry & work
Message-ID: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249008D2D2@sjcmail.sjc.edu>


Pascal D'Angelo came to the United States from Italy in 1910.  He was 16
years old.  He knew no English.  He worked as a ditch digger and railroad
repair man.  He taught himself English as 1920 approached.  He decided to
become a poet, writing in English.  In 1919 he moved from the New Jersey
shore of the Hudson (where he lived in an empty boxcar) into an abandoned
hovel in Brooklyn so that he could devote himself to writing poetry.  In
1922 he is "discovered" by his literary padrone, Carl Van Doren.  Some of
D'Angleo's poems were published in leading national magazines from 1922 to
1924.  In 1924 MacMillian published his autobiography, Son of Italy.  He
died, penniless, in 1932.  Although he didn't publish any poems after 1924,
at his death his main concern was his manuscript of unpublished poems.  His
autobiography went out of print, but will be republished late this year by
Guernica Editions.  Here is the end of a poem called "Night Scene."  

The form strolling on the solitary road
Begins to assume the size of a human being.
It may be some worker that returns from next town,
Where it has been earning its day's wages.
Slowly, tediously, it flags past me --
It is a tired man muttering angrily.
He mutters.
The blackness of his form now expands its hungry chaos
Spreading over half of heaven, like a storm,
Ready to swallow the moon, the puffing stacks, the wild
   foundry,
The very earth in its dark, furious maw,
The man mutters, shambling on --
The storm!  The storm!

D'Angelo said at the end of autobiography, "I am not deserting the legions
of toil to refuge myself in the literary world.  No!  No!  I only want to
express the wrath of their mistreatment.  No!  I seek no refuge!  I am a
worker, a pick and shovel man -- what I want is an outlet to express what I
can say besiders work.  Yes to express all the sorrows of those who cower
under the crushing yoke of an unjust doom."

Dennis Barone






From Thom424  Wed Feb 20 08:43:48 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 08:43:48 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Teaching/Work/School
Message-ID: <12a.c9137df.29a50214@aol.com>

Learning by Heart: Contemporary American Poetry about School. Eds. Maggie 
Anderson & David Hassler (Univ. Iowa Pr, 1999). 125+ 
school/teaching/learning-related poems.

Gratitude to Old teachers

When we stride or stroll across the frozen lake,
We place our feet where they have never been.
We walk upon the unwalked. But we are uneasy.
Who is down there but our old teachers?

Water that once could take no human weight?
We were students then?holds up our feet,
And goes on ahead of us for miles.
Beneath us the teachers, and around us the stillness.

        --Robert Bly



From JforJames  Wed Feb 20 09:30:47 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:30:47 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art Chronicles
Message-ID: <154.94ac70b.29a50d17@aol.com>

John Yau comes to mind in the art critic & poet category,
and then there is Jack Anderson, a poet who writes 
dance criticism...

Art without Boundaries 
The World of Modern Dance 
By Jack Anderson 
* Order * 
384 pp, 36 photos, 1997
$19.95 paper 0-87745-677-1 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--


?In Art without Boundaries Jack Anderson hails modern dance in its full 
boldness and clarity. With characteristic warmth, he also introduces us to 
many fascinating new personalities.??Doris Hering, senior editor, Dance 
Magazine

?[It is] impossible to mention here all the pioneer figures characterised so 
concisely and accurately by Anderson?each of them placed in relation to their 
social and political climate....[Anderson] is well-served by his formidable 
talent as a wordsmith; it would be hard put to name another writer who could, 
in so few precise and weighty words, sketch out the individual artistic 
physiognomies of Graham, Horst, Humphrey, Weidman, Cunningham, Nikolais, 
Lim?n, Shearer, Horton, Taylor, Rainer, Brown, Dean and Fenley?to mention 
just a few of the more prominent Americans.??Ballet International

?Anderson provides one of the most comprehensive dance history books in many 
years, one that draws extensively on the sociological underpinnings of dance 
and the personal passions of individuals. The beginning statement?'modern 
dance is an art as elusive as it is great'?sets the stage for an excellent 
discussion of some of the visionary (and, yes quirky) choreographers who 
devised movement for the genre. . . . Anderson deserves a big 
thank you for such an excellent, thought-provoking look at the world of 
dance.??Choice

?Anderson's account is well researched, but above all, it is lively and 
entertaining reading that will appeal to all dance enthusiasts.??Library 
Journal

?A sweeping panorama of modern dance that comes across with the same dynamism 
and urgency of purpose as the subject itself.??Publishers Weekly

Out of his long history as dance critic for the New York Times, Jack Anderson 
gives us this important, comprehensive history of one of the liveliest and 
most unpredictable of the arts. Treating modern dance as a self-renewing art, 
Anderson follows its changes over the decades and discusses the visionary 
choreographers who have devised new modes of movement.




From halvard  Wed Feb 20 09:40:14 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:40:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Elaine Erickson, "Insomniac"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECELEEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


Insomniac

A man is lodged in my brain.
He talks and talks--an ant
moving in circles. He calls
my finest dream a burned-out
racehorse. He breathes
his black gas in my brain
and I pour sadness at his feet.
He pulls a shower curtain over his eyes
when I cry. If I tell him
I love him, he tells me I am one of many.
If I tell him I hate him, he's a curse.
I want to believe

in miracles. I like to think
I could lie with him in peace,
cotton candy stuffed in our mouths,
our words inching away
like quivering worms. 
But he's always there talking,
his words busy traffic climbing
cell upon cell, tumbling
blocks of thoughts, scattering, plundering
the landscape of my mind.

I will kill him.
I will smother him, his words squeaking out
like rubber pennies. Then I will turn over
in my bed and reach for the lamp,

switching it into darkness.


--Elaine Erickson


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From JforJames  Wed Feb 20 09:49:32 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:49:32 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sarah Arvio poem and Q&A
Message-ID: <16d.923e492.29a5117c@aol.com>

The solace this poem offered was imperfect...but in the interest 
of informing--
Date:   2/19/02 4:30:16 PM Eastern Standard Time
Reply-to:   knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com

Knopf Poetry News: February 2002
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

We are pleased to share with you a poem from the first collection of a
new addition to the Knopf poetry list, Sarah Arvio.  The poem is "How I
Yearn," followed by an excerpt from an interview with the poet.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

How I Yearn

from VISITS FROM THE SEVENTH


I had been missing them very badly,
that day and that day and the next--and yet
the solace they offered was imperfect,

airborne and volatile. I invoked them,
yes, often, in lieu of human contact.
Not that they weren't human, just abstracted

form humanness on the physical plane.
But why had they deserted me? I knew
the answer: for spurning them out of hand.

But where, in that case, did they swirl off to?
Did they rise higher, higher, and vanish
into some upper ether or did they

betrayingly visit someone else who
might at that moment seem more receptive?
Calling them back after a desertion

was never simple: I had to turn my mood
soft, bright, calm and dreamily attentive;
then, after a time, they would slip back in,

one by one, refiguring their spirals
in those inevitable rows of seven.
Would they, I once found the courage to ask,

weave together and net the air for me,
linking and looping their remembered limbs,
to break softly my falling if I fell?

Cradle me, oh cradle me, I whispered.
That was not a service they could do, though.
Life is so complicated for us here,

so troublesome, really, that I wondered
how they found theirs. Did they love it up there
cutting their spirals into cold fronts and

turning somersaults with the storms? Did they
nestle cozy into their troughs of air,
basking in the serene and glossy heights,

the breathtaking vistas of blue-gray seas,
the pink-tinted cloudscapes, the high music--
Or did they, as we do, long for blankets

and warm bodies? So I broached the question
when they came soft-shoeing back this time.
"No memory, no thought," one lipped to me,

"can stand in for the loss of a life of touch."
Amen, I said, and that's the life I want.
So I brushed the air to be rid of them.

Read more poems by Sarah Arvio and learn about her new book, VISITS FROM
THE SEVENTH:
http://www.aaknopf.com/authors/arvio/poem.html

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



From halvard  Wed Feb 20 10:00:25 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:00:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art Chronicles
In-Reply-To: <154.94ac70b.29a50d17@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECELGEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Don't forget Peter Schjedahl and John Perreault. Also,
Ted Berrigan once reviewed for ArtNews. Or have
these been mentioned.

Hal             Minimum 30% post-consumer material

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


   
{    John Yau comes to mind in the art critic & poet category,
{    and then there is Jack Anderson, a poet who writes 
{    dance criticism...
{    
{    Art without Boundaries 
{    The World of Modern Dance 
{    By Jack Anderson 
{    * Order * 
{    384 pp, 36 photos, 1997
{    $19.95 paper 0-87745-677-1 
{    
{    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
{    
{    --
{    
{    
{    ?In Art without Boundaries Jack Anderson hails modern dance in its full 
{    boldness and clarity. With characteristic warmth, he also introduces us to 
{    many fascinating new personalities.??Doris Hering, senior editor, Dance 
{    Magazine
{    
{    ?[It is] impossible to mention here all the pioneer figures characterised so 
{    concisely and accurately by Anderson?each of them placed in relation to their 
{    social and political climate....[Anderson] is well-served by his formidable 
{    talent as a wordsmith; it would be hard put to name another writer who could, 
{    in so few precise and weighty words, sketch out the individual artistic 
{    physiognomies of Graham, Horst, Humphrey, Weidman, Cunningham, Nikolais, 
{    Lim?n, Shearer, Horton, Taylor, Rainer, Brown, Dean and Fenley?to mention 
{    just a few of the more prominent Americans.??Ballet International
{    
{    ?Anderson provides one of the most comprehensive dance history books in many 
{    years, one that draws extensively on the sociological underpinnings of dance 
{    and the personal passions of individuals. The beginning statement?'modern 
{    dance is an art as elusive as it is great'?sets the stage for an excellent 
{    discussion of some of the visionary (and, yes quirky) choreographers who 
{    devised movement for the genre. . . . Anderson deserves a big 
{    thank you for such an excellent, thought-provoking look at the world of 
{    dance.??Choice
{    
{    ?Anderson's account is well researched, but above all, it is lively and 
{    entertaining reading that will appeal to all dance enthusiasts.??Library 
{    Journal
{    
{    ?A sweeping panorama of modern dance that comes across with the same dynamism 
{    and urgency of purpose as the subject itself.??Publishers Weekly
{    
{    Out of his long history as dance critic for the New York Times, Jack Anderson 
{    gives us this important, comprehensive history of one of the liveliest and 
{    most unpredictable of the arts. Treating modern dance as a self-renewing art, 
{    Anderson follows its changes over the decades and discusses the visionary 
{    choreographers who have devised new modes of movement.
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    




From paul.lake  Wed Feb 20 10:54:50 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 09:54:50 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <3C7334C6.D0643B03@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B89922EA.2778%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/19/02 11:32 PM, odysseus34 at odysseus34 at earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> 
> David Graham wrote:
> 
>> Thinking of Stevens's fabled dislocation between day job and poetry--has
>> anyone mentioned William Carlos Williams in this thread?
>> 
>> Seems to me that WCW is a poet whose paying occupation was integral with his
>> poetry, and perhaps even his poetics.   Don't know what, if anything, this
>> might mean, for I'm not sure I could develop the point very convincingly.
>> Just an intuition.
> 
> I'm reminded of Natalie Goldberg's characterizing some of WCW's poems as
> "prescription-pad-sized poems" in "Writing Down the Bones" (this was a
> compliment on her part).  She visualizes WCW as writing poetry in between
> patients in his office.  I don't know how true to life that is, though.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
Williams did work on poems between patients in his office--but on a
typewriter.

Paul Lake




From halvard  Wed Feb 20 11:02:43 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:02:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <B89922EA.2778%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKELKEKAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    Williams did work on poems between patients in his office--but on a
{    typewriter.
{    
{    Paul Lake

Or was it patients between poems?

Hal            Visit Our Other Location

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From Robtberner  Wed Feb 20 11:23:10 2002
From: Robtberner (Robtberner at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:23:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: schedule
Message-ID: <66.1c55d2fb.29a5276e@aol.com>

   tad--mike is scheduled only to give the keynote address for the sat. 
morning session. talk is supposed to run from 9--9:45 am. there's supposed to 
be a sat afternoon session with baraka, tracie morris, and two others. all ot 
this is within the context of a celebration of langston hughes. whole 
schedule is available at yale's afam studies dept website.
   did you catch the pbs show on ralph ellison last night? it was good. 
people dumped on him and called him an uncle tom--he didn't deserve any of 
that.
   so...you're still coming down for mike's address? let me know.
   
   love and la bamba,

              bob



From daisyf1  Wed Feb 20 11:36:33 2002
From: daisyf1 (Daisy Fried)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 11:36:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] work, bitterness and poetry
Message-ID: <20020220.113634.-261163.0.daisyf1@juno.com>

Hi Moira--can I defend Janet a little here (in a random and disorganized
way)? 

You say things like "Is it so hard to believe that other peoplemight like
to trade anecdotes about what it's like to try to balance work and
poetry." You also reject jobs like teacher, bookstore manager, translator
and editor as irrelevant to the kind of work you're interested in as a
subject for poetry and for anecdotal discussion on the list. Yet you
continue to use the term "work" in a general sense ("what it's like to
balance work and poetry")--having also, if I remember correctly [if I
don't I trust you'll correct me] having rejected physical labor as
relevant to your office work experience. It seems like a
not-entirely-straw-opposition to me. 

Okay, I accept that you want to read poems about office work [and assume
you write poems about this--won't you post a couple?]--we all want to
read things that are relevant to our experience--and for you, if I'm
reading you right, that means specifically non-professional prole office
work where the speaker's the employee without much power and a lot of
aggravation. I haven't read a lot of poems in that vein which I've liked
either and would like to read more. [By the way Bob Edwards, former
editor of the leftie journal Pemmican, has a number of good poems on the
subject if you can track down his books or editions of Pemmican, which
he's no longer putting out. Also, I agree: in my experience office work
can be utterly creepy and alienating from the things one values in life.
Like books and words.]

But it does seem to me too that, again, yes, you're setting up
oppositions between the specific experience you're interested in reading
about and all other work experience. I mean, to grossly oversimply, the
conversation seemed to go like this:

you: Merwin was rich.
someone else: Merwin wasn't rich, he had to work hard at translation.
you: translation work, big deal. I'd love to make money that way. [so can
I assume you're working on sending out translations of poems for
publication with an eye to eventually making money at that?]
you also said: Molly Peacock's memoir was great except for the fact that
revealed she had lots of money. Kind of an odd statement to me. [Maybe
you were thinking about the fact that it's easy to be clear about whether
or not you want to have kids if you have enough money, whereas if you
don't have a lot of money the question becomes more 'can I have kids' and
'not do I want them'? But you didn't say this...]
you also: seemed to reject Deborah Garrison's poems not on their own
merits but on the fact that she was successful and well-promoted. Have
you tried to get a job at the NYer so you can make the same kind of
connections she did? There are a lot of jobs there that a person with a
graduate degree like yourself might have a good shot at getting--I mean
you'd probably have to live in Hoboken or something in a tiny apartment
to survive on the salary, but it's one thing you could do. (Yeah, I know,
I wouldn't want to go that path either! but if I reject that path, I
figure I should do my best not to resent those who choose it. I'm not
saying you resent anybody; it's just in the hard-to-control
world-of-e-mail-tone it kinda sounded like you were; god only knows what
I'm sounding like right now...)

And yes, you did say quite emphatically that professors seemed
"overworked, underpaid, underinsured, went to far too many meetings, and
either had to go on sabbaticals or quit their jobs to concentrate on
their own writing..." [I'd add that yeah, in many or most cases, they
surely do have a difficult time; of course others seem like they're
sitting quite pretty] But you do set up an opposition--not necessarily a
pejorative one, but an opposition nonetheless--when you say "it was a job
that would allow you to stay in some contact with the world of ideas and
writing." I'm not saying that's an incorrect statement. But coupled with
some of your other rather bitter-seeming comments [and I don't say your
bitterness, if there is in fact bitterness there, isn't justified--or
that it is] it seems easy to read into your statements that  you needed
writers to conform to specific job, salary and (lack of?) success
requirements for you to be interested in their poems. Of course, you
don't have to be interested in anything but what you're interested in! 

But if I were in Janet's position, I might also feel like there were some
aspersions being cast on--or at least some misunderstanding of--the hard
work she'd done and continued to do to get to and maintain the position
they have.  

In the interests of full-disclosure and since I fear my tone is more
chiding than I want it to be: I have, myself, nothign to complain of. I
currently pay the bills by means of a large grant for my poetry that I
got from a local foundation that supports women artists. This grant comes
on the heels of another large grant, from another foundation that also
supports local artists. I fill in the gaps with occasional freelance
journalism and for the last four years I have taught a single class in
creative writing per year at a prestigious undergraduate college, a
position I got without benefit of even a master's degree (which I've
never gotten and suspect I never will) because someone who knows me and
likes my poetry recommended me. I can say that this teaching job has
definitely *not* connected me more with the world of ideas and writing.
In fact teaching seems like a polar opposite to writing, and weirdly
even, sometimes to ideas. I don't have medical insurance and I tend to
have gaps in my life where I am alarmed about my financial situation [I
have no idea where my next dollar will come from when my dough from the
grant runs out this June] but I prefer moments of alarm and insecurity to
working an office job. I also live in a city (Philadelphia) where it's
not impossible to live on a relatively little bit of money. (For example,
thanks to a city low-income program, I was able to buy a house a couple
years ago with a very small down payment and fair interest rate.) Anyhow,
I have absolutely nothing to complain about so maybe it is easy for me to
make statements like I've been making in this e-mail. Anyhow, my advice
to other poets generally boils down to: Move to Philly! 

Finally, and after this, I'll try not to be so long-winded, I have a poem
in my book _She Didn't Mean to Do It_ called "Electric Slide" which comes
out of a really quite horrible office job I held temporarily in my early
20s, which might interest you. But on the other hand it might not. It
might not really relate to your experience as I only held the job for a
few months before quitting. (I had office jobs before and after that, but
that's the only one I've managed to get into a poem so far...)

Best,
Daisy Fried


 



From wasanthony  Wed Feb 20 13:08:03 2002
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 10:08:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and/of Work
In-Reply-To: <B89922EA.2778%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <20020220180803.66692.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Paul Lake <paul.lake at mail.atu.edu> wrote:
> on 2/19/02 11:32 PM, odysseus34 at odysseus34 at earthlink.net wrote:
> 
> Williams did work on poems between patients in his office--but on a
> typewriter.

True.  If you can squeeze your hand between those blue paper robes
you'll find a poem.  What I'm curious about, however, is how he got two
patients to sit on his typewriter.

- Jim, practicing good bedside manners




=====
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
Homepage: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/index.html>

Readings: <http://www.poetserv.net/jvchome/readings.html>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com



From JforJames  Wed Feb 20 14:32:13 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 14:32:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] teacher poems
Message-ID: <a3.2400130f.29a553bd@aol.com>

The performance poet Taylor Mali has got a couple
teacher related poems at this site
http://www.taylormali.com/products.cfm
I understand he's signed a contract to do a TV pilot
based on his life as a teacher....

Objection overruled, or You can always go to law school if things don't work 
out 

He says the problem with teachers is, ?What's a kid going to learn
from someone who decided his best option in life was to become a teacher??
He reminds the other dinner guests that it's true what they say about 
teachers: 
Those who can, do; those who can't, teach.

I decide to bite my tongue instead of his
and resist the temptation to remind the dinner guests
that it's also true what they say about lawyers.

Because we're eating, after all, and this is polite company.

?I mean, you're a teacher, Taylor,? he says.
?Be honest. What do you make??

And I wish he hadn't done that
(asked me to be honest)
because, you see, I have a policy 
about honesty and ass-kicking:
if you ask for it, I have to let you have it.

You want to know what I make?

I make kids work harder than they ever thought they could.
I can make a C+ feel like a Congressional medal of honor
and an A- feel like a slap in the face.
How dare you waste my time with anything less than your very best.

I make kids sit through 40 minutes of study hall
in absolute silence. No, you may not work in groups.
No, you may not ask a question. 
Why won't I let you get a drink of water?
Because you're not thirsty, you're bored, that's why.

I make parents tremble in fear when I call home:
I hope I haven't called at a bad time, 
I just wanted to talk to you about something Billy said today.
Billy said, ?Leave the kid alone. I still cry sometimes, don't you??
And it was the noblest act of courage I have ever seen.

I make parents see their children for who they are
and what they can be.

You want to know what I make?

I make kids wonder,
I make them question.
I make them criticize.
I make them apologize and mean it.
I make them write.
I make them read, read, read.
I make them spell definitely beautiful, definitely beautiful, definitely 
beautiful 
over and over and over again until they will never misspell 
either one of those words again.
I make them show all their work in math.
And hide it on their final drafts in English.
I make them understand that if you got this (brains)
then you follow this (heart) and if someone ever tries to judge you
by what you make, you give them this (the finger).

Let me break it down for you, so you know what I say is true:
I make a goddamn difference! What about you?






From jdavis  Wed Feb 20 16:13:23 2002
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:13:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arvio / Levin / B Lucas - angel-swarms
In-Reply-To: <16d.923e492.29a5117c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0202201609160.19807-100000@panix2.panix.com>

Dana Levin's In the Surgical Theater and Brian Lucas' The Trustees in
Spite of Themselves share this motif of angel infestation.  What's that
about?  Some kind of emergent American anxiety?  Well I'm all for
symptoms, and terza rima too.

Jordan Davis

> >From a Q&A with Sarah Arvio:
>
> Q: Who are the visitors that speak to you throughout these poems?
> We get various images of them, for example, when they say "we wear
> no form or figure of our own ... to tell us from the motions of the air...
> we'd love to live even in a bubble"-and in another place, they come to
> you in their "inevitable rows of seven." Do you see them as departed
> souls, or not that ghostlike?
>
> A: They're visitors; I hear words and pick up a pen; they inhabit my
> hand when I write. They inhabit my hand when they're speaking; at
> other times, I inhabit my hand. The difference is distinct. I don't know
> what they are; they're disembodied; they may be spirits, if anyone can
> know what a spirit is.
>
> Q: Are the voices, in a way, a metaphor for your poetic process?
>
> A: Auden has an ironic line: "All the literati keep an imaginary friend."
> The visitors may be my notion: a projection of my wish to hear them.
> But I've often been astonished by what they've said to me, and can't
> imagine saying what they've said. Their memory is stronger than
> mine, and their associative powers are stranger and more vivid. After
> a while, the debate emerged in one of my poems: "Three Green
> Stars." The final line is, "Matter or not, it's all material." Meaning
> that it doesn't matter what the source is: anything is material for art. It
> doesn't matter whether it's my notion or a notion accepted from some
> undefinable elsewhere.
>
> Read more of the Q&A with Sarah Arvio:
> http://www.aaknopf.com/authors/arvio/qna.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From tadrichards  Wed Feb 20 21:26:18 2002
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:26:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: schedule
References: <66.1c55d2fb.29a5276e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006a01c1ba7f$25ddf280$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Yeah...I'd like to hear Mike. Let's figure on doing that.


Tad



Check out The Old Mole's Poets and Jazz Musicians Gallery
at http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards


----- Original Message -----
From: <Robtberner at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 11:23 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: schedule


>    tad--mike is scheduled only to give the keynote address for the sat.
> morning session. talk is supposed to run from 9--9:45 am. there's supposed
to
> be a sat afternoon session with baraka, tracie morris, and two others. all
ot
> this is within the context of a celebration of langston hughes. whole
> schedule is available at yale's afam studies dept website.
>    did you catch the pbs show on ralph ellison last night? it was good.
> people dumped on him and called him an uncle tom--he didn't deserve any of
> that.
>    so...you're still coming down for mike's address? let me know.
>
>    love and la bamba,
>
>               bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Thu Feb 21 09:24:16 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:24:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arvio / Levin / B Lucas - angel-swarms
Message-ID: <184.3f67530.29a65d10@aol.com>

jdavis at panix.com writes:
> Dana Levin's In the Surgical Theater and Brian Lucas' The Trustees in
>  Spite of Themselves share this motif of angel infestation.  What's that
>  about?  Some kind of emergent American anxiety?  Well I'm all for
>  symptoms, and terza rima too.
>  
Jordan, it must be part of the zeitgeist...it seems like every other film
or TV show has some kind of supernatural element or alien being as
part of the storyline. Possibly this is a manifestation of our ever-enveloping
human narcissism...as if, shall we say,"entities," capable of crossing back 
& forth between dimensions of time and space, or technologically
advanced enuf to tear-ass from one end of the known universe to another 
are oh so very interested in a self-immolating planet and the personal
travails of its motley cast of characters.
That being said, I not calling for an outright ban in the estate of poetry
against the occasional intrusion by an angel or a (demi)god.
Finnegan 



From JforJames  Thu Feb 21 09:49:50 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 09:49:50 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA in the academy
Message-ID: <f3.16b71eae.29a6630e@aol.com>

In a message dated 2/18/02 7:53:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, Cadaly at aol.com 
writes:
> There are several reasons the relationships between working and English 
> literature and writing things other than poetry are very very important, 
and 
> one of them is the current position of the MFA in the academy and the way 
the 
> programs are structured.
>  
>  Many, though not all, programs use the "no teaching jobs are available" "
> Walllace Stevens" "you're all adults with professions doing this for fun" 
> positions to do absolutely nothing as far as jobs/guidance counselling for 
> students, and offer no coursework that would actually lead to jobs, such as 
> preparation for the style manual exams, creation of portfolios and samples 
> for writing or media jobs, etc.
>  
>  Several new MFA and Creative dissertation PhD programs take this farther:  
> since you will not ever be teaching poetry, as part of your admissions 
essay, 
> write why you want to have a career teaching comp / rhet; or since you will 
> not be teaching, no teaching fellowships are available to you, etc.
>  
>  Academic work during the MFA is often discouraged.  To me, ten years ago, 
> this was always presented as the Sylvia Plath in Chemistry class model, 
where 
> even as a student in the sciences, she just used to time to be inspired and 
> use the foreignness of the vocabulary and concepts as inspiration.  Thus, "
> you can take outside courses, but not for a grade."
>  
>  Additionally, in the PhD programs in literature, creative writing and 
> publication as a hobby is encouraged; now, when there is only a course or 
two 
> in creative writing available to teach, a PhD with a few stories published 
> will be preferred to an MFA with more extensive publication.  Carrying that 
> even further, UCLA, which does not offer creative writing on the graduate 
> level, and has little funding available until C. Phil, encourages graduate 
> students to assemble creative work to apply for NEA funding <so that they 
may 
> use this funding to pay for their tuition and expenses rather than to use 
it 
> to complete art works>.
>  
Catherine, I'm late picking up this thread: I've noticed 
in pages of the trade journals, like AWPChronicle and 
Poets & Writers, in last year or so that more new MFA 
Creative Writing programs are springing up...esp., those 
of the low-residency variety. So the demand must still 
be there despite the dire employment prospects; and the 
low-residency angle certainly must encourage the 
enrollment of those committed to other jobs or contrained 
by other life demands that prevent them from pursuing 
the degree as resident students.
So, the question is what kind of "hunger" is feeding 
this phenomenon? And has there been a similar 
expansion in MFA degree programs of music and the 
visual arts?....or is it somehow unique to the practice 
of writing?
Finnegan



From daisyf1  Thu Feb 21 10:57:05 2002
From: daisyf1 (Daisy Fried)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:57:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arvio/Levin/B.Lucas--Angel Swarms
Message-ID: <20020221.105706.-463299.4.daisyf1@juno.com>

Yeats' spirits, which he channeled through his wife, apparently told him
how better to please his wife sexually, including giving him tips on oral
sex. Now those are some cool angels! 
Daisy



From paul.lake  Thu Feb 21 11:55:22 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 10:55:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arvio/Levin/B.Lucas--Angel Swarms
In-Reply-To: <20020221.105706.-463299.4.daisyf1@juno.com>
Message-ID: <B89A829A.2793%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 2/21/02 9:57 AM, Daisy Fried at daisyf1 at juno.com wrote:

> Yeats' spirits, which he channeled through his wife, apparently told him
> how better to please his wife sexually, including giving him tips on oral
> sex. Now those are some cool angels!
> Daisy
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Daisy, thanks for the info.  Mrs. Yeats was no dummy: Fake trances so she
didn't have to fake orgasms.  It's hard to tell who was the greater genius
in the Yeats household.

Paul Lake




From sholman  Thu Feb 21 12:27:09 2002
From: sholman (Shannon Holman)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 12:27:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for centos
Message-ID: <B89A980E.FA42%sholman@mac.com>

As part of my thesis project for The New School's MFA program, I'm
assembling a small anthology of centos ("patchwork poems" in which every
line is taken from another poem).

Please help me by sending your own centos (note source texts, please) or by
dropping me a note about the cento as a form (i.e., favorite practioners,
its place in the contemporary poetry landscape).

You'll receive nothing but my thanks, a mild service-to-your-fellow-poet
high and, if you want, a copy of the final paper.

Please email sholman at mac.com directly with your questions and/or
submissions.  I'm hoping to finish the research phase of this project by
mid-March.


Thanks,

Shannon


-- 
Shannon Holman
work: 212.545.6089
home: 718.638.1239
sholman at mac.com
--
http://www.onemississippi.com




From gmcvay  Thu Feb 21 15:44:44 2002
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 15:44:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] MFA in the academy
In-Reply-To: <f3.16b71eae.29a6630e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0202211543330.32383-100000@adams.patriot.net>

Finnegan, having obtained my incredibly useful MFA and staggering debt
therefrom, my question now is--where's the low-residency PhD?

Gwyn (really hoping for a low-residency first at Oxford)

---
"We share half our genome with the banana. This is more evident in some of my
acquaintances than others."
Sir Robert May, President of the Royal Society of London





From Cadaly  Thu Feb 21 16:33:31 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 16:33:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] work, bitterness and poetry
Message-ID: <185.3f7dabf.29a6c1ac@aol.com>

"Electric Slide" is quite wonderful.

I've written more nonfiction with work-related "content" although my poetry is about 15 years behind my experience:  it takes that long to filter through in a meaningful way.  I did start working when I was 12.  I'm still writing about waitressing.  OK, make that 23 years behind.

I'm repeating myself by stressing that if what you're looking for isn't there, you're looking incorrectly; Kit Robinson's poems about blank, faceless business travel hotels in DEMOCRACY BOULEVARD (title taken from the name of the ersatz streets they seem to be on), etc.  Remember the manufacturing depression going on for about ten years now?  Remember the disappearance of the middle class?  Who's working in a factory?  Who's working in an office building?

A panel I was trying to assemble but that didn't go had Bin Ramke (science writing/editing), myself (I have actually worked in a factory), Jeanne Beaumont (medical writing), I was going to speak about John Ashbery and others and their tech writing rhetorics.

In the recent AWP Job list, 25 jobs required PhDs, and 12 preferred PhDs.  MFA programs "prefer" PhDs.  Recent hires on tenure-track reporting in are about 80% PhD and 80% minority.  The rise of the creative writing PhD is the death of the MFA, or is forcing the MFA into a "recreational" degree.  It will remain, I think, less of a "fine arts" degree than theatre or painting because there is so much craft involved.

At last year's AWP, one jobs panellist had taken a 25% ish pay cut to teach creatve writing rather than teach tech writing; her end salary was about 25% of what a tenured professor at a major school can expect.  Even at the CC level, where MA/MFA tenure is possible, it is typical for 8 or more English classes per school to be filled with adjuncts every term.  That's two (fairly secure) positions at $16K/year instead of a living wage.

I am going to a conference tomorrow called "Monster and Critic."  As a poet, I am the "Monster."  This version of the poetry wars is poets who embrace critical theory vs. poets with a romantic vision.  Though Stein, Stevens, etc., had essentially neo-romantic visions thru Wm. James.

The increasingly recreational, and "romantic," MFA, then, would seem to continue the idea of some old french guys that poets and poetry are "subjects" and sorta dead, like Latin, or Detroit, or lower Manhattan.

Be well,
Catherine "Always the Bride, Never the Monster" Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net



From poets  Thu Feb 21 17:46:10 2002
From: poets (poets at wiredonwords.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:46:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Voix d'Ameriques Spoken Word Festival
Message-ID: <3C753262.28757.6982A@localhost>

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Voices of the Americas Festival

-spoken word in all its guises

February 26th - March 3rd, 2002

We are happy to announce the inauguration of Le 
Festival Voix d'Ameriques / Voices of the Americas 
Festival (FVA), a new bilingual festival dedicated 
entirely to oral literature.

The FVA 2002 will happen over a six-day period, from 
Tuesday, February 26th until Sunday, March 3rd, in 
Montreal, Canada. 

Four types of activities will be held for this first 
edition of the festival.  Nightly from February 26 to 
March 3 starting at 8 pm there will be 6 cabarets, 
each evening highlighting three different 
themes/styles of literature in performance, uniting 54 
artists: storytelling, theatre, poetry, spoken word, 
multimedia, monologues, first nations, emerging 
artists and more...

In the late afternoon (5 to 7 pm) on February 27 and 
28 and March 1 and 2: four 'new discoveries' open mic 
spaces will feature readings, storytelling, spoken 
word and slam poetry.

In the afternoon on February 27 and 28 and March 1 and 
2: four round table discussions:  - The relationship 
between music and spoken word when the two are  
combined; - a meeting with Carole Boucher from the 
Canada Council  for the Arts (Spoken and Electronic 
Words section);  - the role of new technologies in the 
production of oral  literature; and - the current 
renaissance in the practice of  storytelling. 

Finally, on the morning of March 2 there will be a 
voice technique workshop.

The FVA will take place in three well-known venues 
within a block of each other on St-Laurent Boulevard 
in Montreal:

* The launch of the event will be held at the Sergent 
Recruteur (location of the now legendary weekly 
Dimanches du conte): 4650 St-Laurent, (514) 287-1412

* Nightly cabarets will be presented at the Sala 
Rossa: 4848 St-Laurent at 8PM.

* The 5-7 PM open mike events will be held at the 
Sergent Recruteur: 4650 St-Laurent, (514) 287-1412

* The Round Table discussions will take place from 
2:30 - 4:30 at the Casa del Popolo (swiftly becoming a 
cornerstone of underground music and cultural 
happenings in English Montreal): 4873 St-Laurent, 
(514) 284-3804. 

Boulevard St. Laurent was chosen as it is an important 
location in the history of literature and the culture 
of Montreal. The long-standing symbolic 'divide' 
between Francophone and Anglophone cultures, the 
street is also a contemporary melting pot and meeting 
place for a multitude of languages and cultural 
heritages.

For more info on the FVA, please contact Ian Ferrier 
at 514-849-2353

* * *

Background

The FVA is presented by Productions si on r?vait 
encore, a non-profit organization whose mandate is to 
promote oral literature (l'oralit?) and all the unique 
forms that have emerged from spoken word's 
interdisciplinary nature.
This new production company, its mission and the 
introduction of this new festival are a result of the 
efforts of Andr? Lemelin, an artist, organizer and 
producer of cultural events who continues celebrating 
the written and spoken word (Stop magazine, Lectures 
journal, Exit poetry magazine, Dimanches du conte 
storytelling night, Plan?te rebelle press). 

During the last decade, artists working with the word 
have become more numerous, visible and present among 
the various Montreal arts scenes (in previous years,  
at Foufounes electrique, Isart, Bistro 4, cafe 
Phoenix; more  recently at Jailhouse, Casa Del Popolo 
and Sala Rossa).  However, they continue to be 
relatively isolated from each  other, with no one 
venue or event bringing them together in  a coherent 
collective. The Voices of the Americas festival  will 
attempt to present the entire range of spoken word in  
Qu?bec as well as giving its practitioners a chance to 
come  together, witness each others' creations and 
engage in creative exchanges.

The FVA plans to produce an annual event revolving 
around the 'spoken' word. It will showcase artists' 
existing performance works and invite them to present 
new works for the festival.

At the helm of the FVA is Andr? Lemelin, general 
director of the festival and director of artistic 
programming.

His support crew of artistic advisors